Yoda i think your being a bit disrespectful to others as well, just because he isnt souping in Guard doesnt mean he is gonna get beat by everyone. Ive been running the quintessential 9 mortars and castellan soup like others and i find it sooooooo boring. Infact i found mortars to be hit and miss, and now people have counters to that list.
I have also beaten the so called META LIST many times at events across the UK, what armies i do have problems with are the oddballs, ones that fly under the radar and try something outside the meta.
Whilst i agree about breachers not being the best, if it works for him who are we to shot him down hey? Its like i find Neutrons better than Icarus arrays but i wont tell someone not to take Icarus' on their Onagers, everyone has there own go to units that they excel with.
This whole Guard discussion has gotten blown out of proportion and is becoming silly. We should be encouraging people to you know take more ADMECH in a so called ADMECH TACTICA, Who cares about your 40 shot punisher or 9d6 bolter shots, your list isnt God. It wont work for others, and some people are sick of playing it (me).
If you try something new maybe youll enjoy it and learn how they work, not everything has to be about statistics. Throughout my whole history of Warhammer people have always claimed mathammer for numerous things then complain when their shield captain on jetbike gets pinched to death by my Onager is CC.
Yeah you can work out averages and what units triumph others but ultimately its the player that makes the units work. Ive lost count on how many people take the net list of the month and fail out it. Back in 6th and 7th with Taudar, now with Soup. There is a guy at my local club who famously buys the new hot thing each week claiming its the best thing ever then gets trashed by everyone.
There are those types of people everywhere in the hobby, they try win the games with their wallets. What we should be doing is learning from each others experiences and gain insight on how they made those certain units work.
Hulksmash has been very good at that, hes described how he used his army and why he picked them, we have no reason to say his list is bad and that he will never get top place. He did well with what he ran and i applaud him for that. We should have more examples of that and not the knee-jerk reaction of Guard do everything better which quite frankly is a load of lies.
Make something origin and truly yours and try your best to make it work, it will make the game a whole lot better than it is now. Usually (and famously) i dont agree with what U02dah4 runs (as i dont like Agripinaa) but i sure as hell respect him for having success with his unique build, and its like me, i havent ran Cawl since last year in September as i dont think he is necessary.
Try not to block out the little gems of purer Admech builds with Guard. If we are going to shut down those types of people, maybe move your tactics and lists to a more Soup themed thread. Im ok with the occassion guard, assassin, knight talk as ultimately we have them in our lore (Hyspasists, Acuitors, Venatorii and our own household knights) but we shouldnt ultimately always pick Guard over Admech.
They may be better in your eyes but they arent in other peoples. Our codex has its problems like many other early gen books (SM, CSM, GK) and hopefully we will get a update (look at Stormcast and Bloodbound, they get a new book so often).
Rant over. In the end be more polite to other peoples thoughts and dont force Guard onto people. Yes the whole topic got out of hand but thats because Admech has a lot of passionate players (i used to play guard as admech waaaaaay before we had a book, i converted models and used fw tech thralls) and we have kind of degraded into this mess.
I for one love seeing the likes of Hulksmash and U02dah4 having fun and good matches with their armies, we all picked Admech for who they are and not for averages and best army.
@Yoda79
I was watching LVO streams, and something I noted is that a lot of the Castellan + Guard Brigade lists only worked because virtually all of the CP was being reserved for the Castellan. It is 3 CP for Order of Companions and 1 CP for Machine Spirit Resurgent, 3 CP for Rotate Ion Shields. So 6-7 CP per round! And you need to use these stratagems or your Castellan will die or your shooting will just suck, which makes Agents of Vect very powerful against these lists. And I believe GSC now also have an Agents of Vect-like stratagem.
I have been experimenting with Krast Styrix and Crusader. Using a Questoris means I can get away with spending a lot less CP per turn on the Knight and more on my Kastelans (2-3 CP per turn) and Ryzaphrons (2 CP per turn). He also is much better in melee than a Castellan, which pretty much has to keep its distance.
So far, I like the Styrix a lot more. This is because they have built-in Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary, so you can get a WLT and Relic, which should be rerolls and damage. Meanwhile, Crusader has to choose two of: good saves, rerolls, or damage. Styrix also has a built-in Omnispex, grav gun, and his Volkite gun has a great profile for anti-vehicle shooting (45" Heavy 5, S8 AP-3, D6).
I do like Mortars. I took me a long time before I finally decided to cut them. The reason why is because I think you need to run Cadian with Laurels to make them work. They are not as good with Catachan. But I want to take Catachan because I need my infantry to be able to at least threaten Orks and Nids in CC.
With the new formation though, Wyverns seem better than Mortars and Basilisks. I believe Wulfey currently favors Vostroyan. I might test one of those out with Catachan.
I feel that some people might benefit from listening to the last chapter tactics podcast particularly in relation to the most successfull admech units being kataphrons of both descriptions and how kastellens were not that good across detatchments.
Yoda79 wrote: Gotta take side with Suzuteo not only cause it was unfair and below polite many posts vs him but also cause we got like 500 pages of ad mech talking and testing and many should show some more respect .
To the point after moniring both list and the lvo pro wanna be and Suzuteo list it's obvious Suzuteo is the winner and you can test it your self facing the lists vs each other and more.
The fact you did good at lvo does not mean as much as you claim for your list and the fact you faced maiinly same enemies proves your matchup luck.
Still I got many to say for both lists .
List one lvo champ.
Don't get me wrong I agree with Suzuteo I wish you did finshed first in lvo with pure ad mech. I wish but if I'm correct you claim ad mech purity and you go a stationary gun line where
A) even breachers need to be close to Cawl for the buff so what xactly did you do. Removed Robots and onagers to circle 3 robotts with Terminator like breachers so what?? Robots are not good onagers not cheap. If I am to take Cawl Mars etc then I need Mars Gun line.
B) oh I'm gonna remove guad hla bla . Yeah right you gonna remove mortars 9D6 Los and find it where?? In solo ad mech . You talking mcho when you can sit back and mortar enemies Los. And that is the only reason you got some proper function in your list . Ofc 7 breachers able to fight revive heal T5 3w 1+/4++ it's superb body guards but mortars gve you the ability to remove enemy campping units . That's why you can play with 3 robots only bla bla.
C) pure ad mech k let me first see you remove the 40 shot moving T8 punisher and wee LL see your stationary other options why you took the rush and not a Robot spare us your grand strategy we know it as well.
D) ofc you don't need more than 5 infiltrators cause you got also guard let me see you as the rest of us having to play 10 infiltrators and loose them trying to actually bring results.
E) I'm sorry but from you list I can see you are. Not an ad mech pure . Split units like balistsri 3 robots 5 infiltrators none benefit from our buffs same as a Cawl buffing arrc breachers . It's not refined ad mech it's your plan and you made it work no question about it but will not have consistency without guard . Even is you bring some results eventually if you remove guard you will become a classic ad mech lossimg from vp and vs a refined like like a guard list no your expensive 8 man ranger omnispecx won't wiin cause high tier full competitive guard infantry have mobility options and melee options fixed in their build and you don't.
Ad mech pure list with no vanguard has no clue . Vanguard one unit only can advance shoot and provide -1 T. If you don't know how to use this then breachers melee benefits talks come later.
So much to unpack....I'll respond to your totally not meaning to be offensive while constantly bla bla'ing my list while not understanding how it actually works. So even though you're a "No offense, BUT" person and came off very rude here you go
a) Only one breacher needs to be within 9" of Cawl for rerolls in shooting. But since Cawl is normally moving it's pretty easy to do. Cawl on the otherhand also helps with CC because mars double traits and cawls ability to get you that reroll 1's is very nice on the Breachers. b) I am going to remove the guard actually. Mortars were in there because of ITC magic boxes. Turns out I didn't really need them. They helped but no more than a bunch of other tools would in different ways. I use 3 robots because that's all I've found I need. I've noticed, from as far back as 5th when people didn't understand some list choices, that people don't really understand threat dispersion in list building. c) Oddly that tank only did work in one game. And all it did was make it so that the game was over turn 1 instead of turn 3. I used it cause I made a cool conversion. It's a good unit (hence why it's popping up all over now) but it didn't add much I didn't already have. I'd rather have another unit of 6-7 breachers honestly. My Grand Strategy you seem to think I'm pushing is simply finding something fun that works for me. I'm a toolbox player. More units and tools the better. d) I used 5 infiltrators because I work much better with them than I did with 10. Meaning I'm smarter about applying them and getting multiple turns out of them instead of the shoot and die that I did with 10. The decision has nothing to do with having Guard or not. e) I wasn't pure admech this tournament. The plan is to transition that way. The balistari are there for brigade purposes but they generally benefitted from Cawl as well because an 18" bubble is pretty big. Infiltrators aren't meant to benefit from Cawl though they do in the potential to reroll 1's in shooting and thru the Wrath of Cawl strat if I want a dead character when they come in.
Vanguard don't really do much for the list. I like them and might grab a single unit at some point just for the sheer number of shots but reality is that in my game plan Rangers are superior for ME. They genuinely are one of the best infantry choices in the game based on points and abilities. The idea that because I don't use a unit that doesn't work in my style of play means I don't have a clue is a bit......off. As for lists I played at LVO I played 2 eldar armies (bane of a lot of Admech because of all the free actions), 2 Ork armies (considered one of the top codexes currently), Deathwatch/Sisters/DA run by one of the better players in the country year in and year out (and fellow previous ETC teammate), and then an off the wall Ultra army that was based on going first and went first. I BUILT the list to deal with the guard/castellan/whatever lists out there and didn't see a single one.
I hope you keep your mind a little more open. With the point changes to the army none of the previous 200pgs of "Tactics" mean a thing. It's essentially a new book with the new points and vigilus. Guard aren't essential, especially if your meta has geared to kill 150 orks in a game
Also this is where my pure admech is starting at. Currently it's 11pts over but that's fixable;
Suzuteo wrote: @Yoda79
I was watching LVO streams, and something I noted is that a lot of the Castellan + Guard Brigade lists only worked because virtually all of the CP was being reserved for the Castellan. It is 3 CP for Order of Companions and 1 CP for Machine Spirit Resurgent, 3 CP for Rotate Ion Shields. So 6-7 CP per round! And you need to use these stratagems or your Castellan will die or your shooting will just suck, which makes Agents of Vect very powerful against these lists. And I believe GSC now also have an Agents of Vect-like stratagem.
I have been experimenting with Krast Styrix and Crusader. Using a Questoris means I can get away with spending a lot less CP per turn on the Knight and more on my Kastelans (2-3 CP per turn) and Ryzaphrons (2 CP per turn). He also is much better in melee than a Castellan, which pretty much has to keep its distance.
So far, I like the Styrix a lot more. This is because they have built-in Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary, so you can get a WLT and Relic, which should be rerolls and damage. Meanwhile, Crusader has to choose two of: good saves, rerolls, or damage. Styrix also has a built-in Omnispex, grav gun, and his Volkite gun has a great profile for anti-vehicle shooting (45" Heavy 5, S8 AP-3, D6).
I do like Mortars. I took me a long time before I finally decided to cut them. The reason why is because I think you need to run Cadian with Laurels to make them work. They are not as good with Catachan. But I want to take Catachan because I need my infantry to be able to at least threaten Orks and Nids in CC.
With the new formation though, Wyverns seem better than Mortars and Basilisks. I believe Wulfey currently favors Vostroyan. I might test one of those out with Catachan.
Yeah GSC have the pre-nerfed version of AoV. Theirs is 3CP not 4 so maybe that will get addressed in their FAQ as it isnt really fair on the Dark Eldar. I also used to run Vostroyans as well as their order and stratagem was quite good. I also used a single Emperor's Wrath Wyvern and it did serious work way better than 9 mortar teams) but it drank CPs and was easily destroyed in the current AT meta. I am also a fan of the Styrix and have been using it for ages, it is my favourite Knight both looks and game play wise (gotta love the CHOOOOOM), and mine is a nice candy blue (forge world clear paints!!). I just really suspect GSC to have a upsurge in players (no pun intended) and with their deployment shenanigans and mass of bodies geared for combat (rending claws...) and a butt tonne of hand flamers and detonation bombs, the meta will have to change to fight this new threat. Things like Augury scanner to shooting units arriving from 12" away will be key, even Vanguard can built a Deepstrike with their number of shots vs GEQ coming in. Fulgrites may even make a comeback to counter charge units, they excel at killing light infantry as do the other variants.
Our codex is kind of blessed in the fact that our shooting can handle AT and AI needs in a pinch, we will just have to work towards board control which is hard vs the likes of GSC, Orkz and Nids. Guardsmen may elevate that problem a bit, but other horde armies can and will kill guardsmen easily and will also control more board space.
Thats what i think the meta will have to adapt to, you may still see the Castellan/Guard/BA soup but around my parts that is a rarer site. Its more Eldar Soup, Triptides and Greentides than Imperium.
Wow some people get their knickers in a twist here, it's a game don't get mental about it. Even if you play tournaments, it's a game, not a job. This thread has been tainted with some toxicity since the start by various people and it could be avoided just by being a bit more polite.
If a list works and the results are there to prove it I have no idea why you should be going after him telling him his list is wrong and to add more Guard. This thread have been Tactica: Guard for a long time and it's hard to believe people are being told pure AdMech doesn't work. Since Vigilus and CA18 AdMech is CONSIDERABLY better as a solo list and I believe definitely viable even in a tournament. While discussing meta choices isn't it good to have a list that can work outside of it to surprise people ? If everyone and their dog plays 32 + Knight + their base codex in Imperium of course games are going to be predictable.
And don't get me started on the fact that most of the players here play the houserules that is ITC because for some reason everyone adopted it. GW can't try to balance a game most players are not even playing. I'd be interested to see these lists play some of the CA18 missions like Cut Off The Head with a single central objective and Characters that have to risk their lives to score points. But ITC seems to be mostly the same game over and over again.
My Agripinaa + Lucius list with 4 Fistelans works well enough because nobody expects AdMech to DS 4 Bots that make a 6" charge in their lines while still getting shot at by 6 Destroyers. Most importantly I have a blast playing this list and I wonder how you guys have fun moving 50 infantry models but that's personal, I just dislike hordes and static gunlines.
My points is: to each their own, and don't get nervous when someone courteously express their new list ideas because of Mathammer or theorycrafting. They're both important tools and shouldn't be dismissed but it's not the word of the Omnissiah like some think it is on this forum as a whole.
@Hulksmash you say you find rangers better because of their abilities can you explain that because we ran the numbers a few pages earlier and in terms of outlut they are mostly worsr than vanguard/guard in terms of output.
@deffreka
What has fairness got to do with the cost of AoV if dark eldar/ynnarii keep winning they need a nerf - if GSC dont keep winning why shouldnt they access the same abiliity cheaper. Sure its a powerfull ability. But on a weaker army is it as broken
It also makes more sense fluff wise that the army that infiltrates others for years will counter a strategy more easily
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Aaranis I for one tend to play ETC style missions more than ITC style.
I made the post to show how it felt reading the ding dong post vs Suzuteo and i saw pretty much offence towrads him being polite .
Im not a person poping here first time and id appreciate to take a moment and understand what i wrote before you post a block of text saying
I disagree but i olan to do it in the same sentence. I did not wrote all that so the rest here can tell me the obvious point i made . List are played from players and i agree 100% this is the place to take wisdom . Meaning not tonhave to spend 200 hours to come to a resukt we have been debating and tesrong like aeons.
I know exactly what i do and what your list did and i tell you 100% sure it was not refined. Glad youbhad success but it xould be better and you know it.
From ad mech contribution Suzuteo provided a list that somewhat overcommed a big ad mech issue mobility with his list while also given freely his v v good catachan breachers strat as well as dagger and ryzadesteoyers.
So when i see a list with punisher and mortars debating about guard infantry while the only actuall contribution is your lvo resukts sorry but my post will be offensive cause i have respect for Suzuteo conteibuting seriously some 1000 pages deep.
Amd no i care less if you managed to get resukts with breachers and i care less cause its not that hard to see a 30 point model terminator + value perform so what. How did you add to ad mech problems switched from a Ca18 point decrease a unit and again buffing with Cawl . Great good job sorry but its not something wr have not seen. Sute it works but its not actually a new strat . I have personaly done it even before the point decrese and claimed it in here with succes ao what . When i posted about breachers i got laughed about . So what .
I m not here to offend merely posted cause i saw a really bad behaviour towrds suzuteo and posted so all can see its easy to make a case when you talking about a list taking as base point modeks and individual peeformance. Thats the point
So not only you didnt get the point but you still jump and rush texts of block about offence list building conteibution .
Sorry i have contributed you cna see my name on the start of the flrums on ad mech about ryza strat when 8th came out if you cant find older .
Im not here to chit chat with personal ossue kids . The point for both lists was atm current meta most units work and its up to the hands of the generals how they win .
As for feed back tranforming a stationary ad mech removing a knight to add breachers etc playing with points its not the end of the world.
I use it sure i get it ye i wrote the strat but in the end its still ststionary with our the rush guard troops knight etc that we took for that exact reason . And even if we got the toughness with breachers its still remains one sided.
Beyond that . And i presumme we wont see again the lot of you doing exactly that towards none else in here .
Contributing now. Cause i m not here to offend even if it might sound like it .
Bravo for going pure mech and suUteo and me congrats all for trying but ad mech is not yet complete .
So let me help you gain time listen to my experience and build upon it or discard it no problem but listen.
There are clear issues you need to adreess in competitive when you remove knights guard etc.
I wont start over most of you already know the issues.
So what i v found.
Brigade is not for you stop trying why?
The gains are cp and you dont have a BA or Castellan need to spend basis like 8 in a unit .
Our best stratagems benefit large units 5 Robots 6 dragoons 4+ balistarii 10 infiktrators etc.
For the units to break even in points with other armies you need to have all abilities our units dont have . Its not super unit a plasma breacher even at 48 points its not . Cause he still got inconsistent damage the d6 shots have extreme differential results. Etc etc for most units to become above avergae you need to have them with buffs
That alone tell you to build uo battalions and use one mixed else you wont have the proper tools to utilise your ad mech.
And we always compare to other units from other armies cause we talking competitive . You gotto make the comparisson . Not cause you gonna take the guard infantry bit more so you evuluate your plan.
Thats why we got knights and guard so far. To cover our army issues .
So if now after CA 18 we can work with 2 battalions all our units amd with a mix top our plans then i m telling you after a lot of testing ad mech needs 2 detachments and since you definetly need many more things like atratagems etc 2 battalions are minimum to begin with .
I cant stress enough the post we talked about this amd tried to explained it from the new edition begining . We are semi cp hungry but all our model abikities come from formation and cp . The ad mech issue + big model count in units for buff.
So if two already used cant take knights cause for me all testing said super heavy +3 cp or castellan solo is max result and even if styrix is good we play Etc so no Fw to begin with .
For me and soon will see my list will be assasins so i can cover my army issues and remain as loyal as possible to pure ad mech . There can be no other serious play in top competitive enviroment .if you remove all ally options you will eventually
And the game is not build like that. You can try you can win many games cause your pro player sure but we are talking about refined top lists atmlvo top etc not a list you made for pure fun and lore. Need to have also top competitive chances . Nothing more nothing less.
Manipulus needs to be inside Robots and breachers we need their toughness 100% i strongly suggest buildong around the snipers back field maybe atack with snioer assasin when need . Infiltrators benefit exteemely as mars and its not skill to play 3 Robots or 5 infiktrators but got to make 5 Robots and 10 win all games cause you definetly need them . ( I use 4 Robots amd 6 infiltrators but you get the points )
So we are close yes its somewhere there where you will find my list still some decisions to be made mainly need ro see the point invest on assasins atm. Then how many kataphrons i got and if plasma can be used with deep strike or how . Etc.
But i wont waste points in one knight single autocannon balistarii etc etc. Optimise you list refine it and trust me you will get results .
Refined use at least 6 infiltrators and wrath on them you can split fire if positioned properly and do serious things with them . Use vanguards with any melee you making like manipulus Cawl breachers etc. Use lascannon balistarii 3+ one unit if yoh are to use them . Yes icarus onager is better cause it has 10 shots and not d3 neutron . Thats it not result issue but consinstency issue . Same goes for troops 6-7+ is optimal for me as well never used less is waste. And ofc dont forget there are also superb units to fill detachments like 3 dragoons 5 priest etc that can work wonders and close gaps. Most likely you will need to play test details unit sizes and refined numbers with games and playstyle.
Hf and i will not answer again to personal offence i care not . Just dont harash other that have already done much in here .
Automatically Appended Next Post: As always i provide free advice of my opinions playtests and wisdom . Feel free to push the ignore button if you dont like it but thats the point i care . My opinion if you dont gain from it dont read it and i posted to make a point when i saw polite suzuteo get mass posts nothing else . Already said much next 6 months now . Hf
@yoda76 I have only disagreed with sutzeo on his stance with respect to infantry being undealable with (I agree they are good)because hes wrong and his list because it features 25% buffing characters and for me thats way to high a % at the expense of having more things to buff
As to CP demands my list for the weekend i intend
1CP servitor Maniple
1CP extra relic
2CP go 2nd cover strat
2cp reuse canticle
3cp agripinaa strat
2 CP ryza strat+1bs (servitor maniple)
3 CP mars strat +1 bs 1 CP Binharic override
2 CP 5++ on katapjron
17 CP standard useage I will want more CP if say ryzaphrones breachers infiltrators wish to use their strats again. I could therefore do with more than the 20 I have and I have just admech
Hmm, are breachers actually considered good? I see them pop up in some lists (and in the recent argument in this thread). I fail to see their strength since on paper they feel very underwhelming. Im genuinly curious since im all for having more playable models.
Well im running 9 to a gt this weekend particularly in agripinaa they are tanky for their points solid as frontline melee. They tend to attract firepower but often live due to the agripinaa strat and make their pts back over a few turns of shooting not to mention in shielding other units
As to Lvo data only three lists ran them but they did better on avg than the admech lists without.
Regarding the rangers it's likely a playstyle thing. Their advantages for me start with the range. The extended rapid fire (15") has been a big deal. But being able to shoot from one of my line to the other allows me to better concentrate firepower while maintaining my screen. I get to use those things for most of the game. Vanguard on the other hand normally have to close, pushing their usefulness to me down. Surviving cc isnt something I expect so their neg toughness ability rarely matters. Especially since +1 st comes up fairly often for canticles. So it's more intangibles than hard numbers for my choice.
@Vlad
I wouldn't say they are considered good outside of certain styles but with the point drop and vigilus they fill a roll I was noting I was lacking initially. Essentially they are our counter attack while providing excellent ranged anti-tank/multi wound models. Being able to get to a 1+/4++ vs shooting is amazing. I use them initially to deter assaults into my line and then to smash forward for center board control (or both at the same time depending on the opposing force).
@Yoda
I'm gonna confess to having trouble following your train of thought. It's kinda all over the place. As for your defense of suzeto go for it but realize that it was mostly his casually dismissive arrogance and disbelief of other play styles that started that train. One you're following admirably I the tracks of. I think you need to realize just how much the landscape has changed with ca18 and vigulus. It's a new time. The meta is also shifting with the addition of orks and gsc. Also not to be a dick but the earlier crops of "admech" experts aren't burning up the scene so maybe, just maybe, there might be merit I others thoughts who are having success
U02dah4 wrote: Well im running 9 to a gt this weekend particularly in agripinaa they are tanky for their points solid as frontline melee. They tend to attract firepower but often live due to the agripinaa strat and make their pts back over a few turns of shooting not to mention in shielding other units
As to Lvo data only three lists ran them but they did better on avg than the admech lists without.
so you stick them at the front of you castle and mow down whatever comes close and failing that , take potshots at vehicles? I'll have to try them (so i have an excuse to convert some bullgryn with the breacher weapons bit that were leftover from my destroyers), but the 2 hits with BS4 is making me nervous.
If you already run a dominus the you can get them to a 3+ reroll 1s for a cp. Mine are actually generally behind the line of rangers so they can shoot and counter attack. But I've got a buddy using them as front line smashers
If youre using them as a backline and buffing their shooting, wouldnt destroyers do a better job? Does the arc claw really put in more work than the flamer when getting charged? A quick run of mathhammer shows that destroyers about twice as much damage to given the same conditions (+1 hit and reroll 1s).
Assuming this, im guessing the lower point cost (more bodies to kill) coupled with the better close combat capabilities is why you play them?
They aren't backline though that's a common mistake. Think of the rangers the trip wire and the breachers the bomb. They are still between the enemy and my other heavier shooting (bots, striders, crawlers). Otherwise it's the more bodies, better cc, and better defensive capabikities.
Woah, i just realised they get a better save than destroyers, ok that changes my point of view. And using tougher units as a second line of defense makes sense. Do you double down in durability by adding some regular servitors to heal/res them or do you consider the agripiina strat to be enough?
U02dah4 wrote: @Hulksmash you say you find rangers better because of their abilities can you explain that because we ran the numbers a few pages earlier and in terms of outlut they are mostly worsr than vanguard/guard in terms of output.
@deffreka
What has fairness got to do with the cost of AoV if dark eldar/ynnarii keep winning they need a nerf - if GSC dont keep winning why shouldnt they access the same abiliity cheaper. Sure its a powerfull ability. But on a weaker army is it as broken
It also makes more sense fluff wise that the army that infiltrates others for years will counter a strategy more easily
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Aaranis I for one tend to play ETC style missions more than ITC style.
Nid Soup will be just as strong as Eldar soup, having a faction having the same stratagem but 1CP less is a massive kick in the nuts, its like Orkz there heavy flamers are more expensive than every other race, same with their power fists and chainfists. Dark Eldar (mainly Vect) will generally plan a lot longer than a bunch of mutant xenos.... Having also lived longer, being more tactical, heightened senses and better technology, it is more suited to Dark Eldar than a bunch of rebels. Fluff wise it doesnt really suit GSC any more than it suits DE. Genecult cant infiltrate everyone, Necrons? Nope. Daemons? Definitely not. Eldar? When the race is highly psychic they would soon figure something out. Dark Eldar, they come suddenly and disappear as soon as they arrived. Orkz, highly unlikely when A.) they are so anarchic and B.) Orkz naturely know when things arent Orky and have a tendency to kill or kick out Orkz that dont fit their ways, its even in the Ork codex, Genestealers find it hard to get a cult going in Ork society. Any marine faction would also be highly unlikely, how can they plan and infiltrate for something they woudnt know about? Most imperial citizens dont know much about the larger imperium, especially not the likes of Deathwatch and Grey Knights and when most marines are without warning and end uprisings (chaos, xenos, or other) quite quickly. So that strat would be more suited fluff wise to Imperial Guard and not much else maybe tau as well.
But we shouldnt base things off of fluff, gameplay wise Nid Soup isnt weaker than Eldar Soup, and pure GSC vs pure DE will favour the GSC massively, they do combat better, have a big psychic presence that the DE have no defense against, have better CC units and can easily kill raiders and venoms. AoV is only broken because it stops your strat straight out, no matter who has that its still broken. As a DE player it has won me games. As a GSC player it has won me games. Either way it should both cost the same amount of CP. Imagine if Hellfire rounds cost 1 more CP for DA as they are better than normal codex marines or BA have to pay 1CP more for fighting again with there dead Smash Captain as once again they are better than vanilla SM.
U02dah4 wrote: @Hulksmash you say you find rangers better because of their abilities can you explain that because we ran the numbers a few pages earlier and in terms of outlut they are mostly worsr than vanguard/guard in terms of output.
@deffreka
What has fairness got to do with the cost of AoV if dark eldar/ynnarii keep winning they need a nerf - if GSC dont keep winning why shouldnt they access the same abiliity cheaper. Sure its a powerfull ability. But on a weaker army is it as broken
It also makes more sense fluff wise that the army that infiltrates others for years will counter a strategy more easily
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Aaranis I for one tend to play ETC style missions more than ITC style.
Nid Soup will be just as strong as Eldar soup, having a faction having the same stratagem but 1CP less is a massive kick in the nuts, its like Orkz there heavy flamers are more expensive than every other race, same with their power fists and chainfists. Dark Eldar (mainly Vect) will generally plan a lot longer than a bunch of mutant xenos.... Having also lived longer, being more tactical, heightened senses and better technology, it is more suited to Dark Eldar than a bunch of rebels. Fluff wise it doesnt really suit GSC any more than it suits DE. Genecult cant infiltrate everyone, Necrons? Nope. Daemons? Definitely not. Eldar? When the race is highly psychic they would soon figure something out. Dark Eldar, they come suddenly and disappear as soon as they arrived. Orkz, highly unlikely when A.) they are so anarchic and B.) Orkz naturely know when things arent Orky and have a tendency to kill or kick out Orkz that dont fit their ways, its even in the Ork codex, Genestealers find it hard to get a cult going in Ork society. Any marine faction would also be highly unlikely, how can they plan and infiltrate for something they woudnt know about? Most imperial citizens dont know much about the larger imperium, especially not the likes of Deathwatch and Grey Knights and when most marines are without warning and end uprisings (chaos, xenos, or other) quite quickly. So that strat would be more suited fluff wise to Imperial Guard and not much else maybe tau as well.
But we shouldnt base things off of fluff, gameplay wise Nid Soup isnt weaker than Eldar Soup, and pure GSC vs pure DE will favour the GSC massively, they do combat better, have a big psychic presence that the DE have no defense against, have better CC units and can easily kill raiders and venoms. AoV is only broken because it stops your strat straight out, no matter who has that its still broken. As a DE player it has won me games. As a GSC player it has won me games. Either way it should both cost the same amount of CP. Imagine if Hellfire rounds cost 1 more CP for DA as they are better than normal codex marines or BA have to pay 1CP more for fighting again with there dead Smash Captain as once again they are better than vanilla SM.
The GSG Vect strat has the pre-FAQ pricing, its probably going to get set to 4cp in the next FAQ.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Woah, i just realised they get a better save than destroyers, ok that changes my point of view. And using tougher units as a second line of defense makes sense. Do you double down in durability by adding some regular servitors to heal/res them or do you consider the agripiina strat to be enough?
I personally use mine in a Mars brigade so I make it a vigilus fmdetachment for the better invul and the ability to bring them back with servitors since those are the cheap elite filler.
U02dah4 wrote: @Hulksmash you say you find rangers better because of their abilities can you explain that because we ran the numbers a few pages earlier and in terms of outlut they are mostly worsr than vanguard/guard in terms of output.
@deffreka
What has fairness got to do with the cost of AoV if dark eldar/ynnarii keep winning they need a nerf - if GSC dont keep winning why shouldnt they access the same abiliity cheaper. Sure its a powerfull ability. But on a weaker army is it as broken
It also makes more sense fluff wise that the army that infiltrates others for years will counter a strategy more easily
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Aaranis I for one tend to play ETC style missions more than ITC style.
Nid Soup will be just as strong as Eldar soup, having a faction having the same stratagem but 1CP less is a massive kick in the nuts, its like Orkz there heavy flamers are more expensive than every other race, same with their power fists and chainfists. Dark Eldar (mainly Vect) will generally plan a lot longer than a bunch of mutant xenos.... Having also lived longer, being more tactical, heightened senses and better technology, it is more suited to Dark Eldar than a bunch of rebels. Fluff wise it doesnt really suit GSC any more than it suits DE. Genecult cant infiltrate everyone, Necrons? Nope. Daemons? Definitely not. Eldar? When the race is highly psychic they would soon figure something out. Dark Eldar, they come suddenly and disappear as soon as they arrived. Orkz, highly unlikely when A.) they are so anarchic and B.) Orkz naturely know when things arent Orky and have a tendency to kill or kick out Orkz that dont fit their ways, its even in the Ork codex, Genestealers find it hard to get a cult going in Ork society. Any marine faction would also be highly unlikely, how can they plan and infiltrate for something they woudnt know about? Most imperial citizens dont know much about the larger imperium, especially not the likes of Deathwatch and Grey Knights and when most marines are without warning and end uprisings (chaos, xenos, or other) quite quickly. So that strat would be more suited fluff wise to Imperial Guard and not much else maybe tau as well.
But we shouldnt base things off of fluff, gameplay wise Nid Soup isnt weaker than Eldar Soup, and pure GSC vs pure DE will favour the GSC massively, they do combat better, have a big psychic presence that the DE have no defense against, have better CC units and can easily kill raiders and venoms. AoV is only broken because it stops your strat straight out, no matter who has that its still broken. As a DE player it has won me games. As a GSC player it has won me games. Either way it should both cost the same amount of CP. Imagine if Hellfire rounds cost 1 more CP for DA as they are better than normal codex marines or BA have to pay 1CP more for fighting again with there dead Smash Captain as once again they are better than vanilla SM.
The GSG Vect strat has the pre-FAQ pricing, its probably going to get set to 4cp in the next FAQ.
Yeah thats what im saying, the GSC version will most likely get the price hike too in their FAQ. What U02dah4 is saying is a bit silly, just think if a chaos knight book came out and they had their own version of order of companions and it was the cost before its nerf. Just because there are from a different faction doesnt mean it shouldnt cost the same. Its things like this that ruin the game.
Can someone explain to me how or why this list is a good list? I found it on Reddit. It includes 4 Termites. I like lists no one plays, but can’t understand this one. Isn’t something many factions can do?
I quote :
It excells at Alpha Striking and is excellent at preventing being Alpha struck. I've lost 2 games out of 25 with it.
The idea is to pre game move all the termites up the field and deploy with the least amount of drops so you always get that +1 to the turn one roll. Then either turn 1 or at worst turn 2 charge.
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [74 PL, 1197pts] Forge World: Stygies VIII
RenegadeKorps wrote: Can someone explain to me how or why this list is a good list? I found it on Reddit. It includes 4 Termites. I like lists no one plays, but can’t understand this one. Isn’t something many factions can do?
I quote :
It excells at Alpha Striking and is excellent at preventing being Alpha struck. I've lost 2 games out of 25 with it.
The idea is to pre game move all the termites up the field and deploy with the least amount of drops so you always get that +1 to the turn one roll. Then either turn 1 or at worst turn 2 charge.
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [74 PL, 1197pts] Forge World: Stygies VIII
Lord of War [30 PL, 604pts] Knight Castellan [30 PL, 604pts]: 2x Shieldbreaker Missile [24pts], 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon [70pts], Volcano Lance, Plasma Decimator, 2x Twin Meltagun, Titanic feet
If its lost only 2 of 25 games i think its doing quite well. Its a lot of t8 that you opponent has to deal with which can be a shock for some people. It seems alright to me.
Hulksmash wrote: I'm gonna confess to having trouble following your train of thought. It's kinda all over the place. As for your defense of suzeto go for it but realize that it was mostly his casually dismissive arrogance and disbelief of other play styles that started that train. One you're following admirably I the tracks of. I think you need to realize just how much the landscape has changed with ca18 and vigulus. It's a new time. The meta is also shifting with the addition of orks and gsc. Also not to be a dick but the earlier crops of "admech" experts aren't burning up the scene so maybe, just maybe, there might be merit I others thoughts who are having success
I didn't want to wade back into this. But I think you are unfairly characterizing what I said. Go back to page 198. My first post was to congratulate you. My second post was mild disagreement and then I commented that Guard should be nerfed. Then the negativity hammers came out. I spent most of the time defending what in my opinion is a too-powerful strategy that should not need defending and cautioning you all against underestimating it or shying from abusing its competitive aspects--while some of you personally attacked me, I might add.
Going to summarize it again: Skitarii are pretty good shooters, but they are slow and narrow in scope. Guardsmen are very versatile. They can run crazy fast, have good body count for screening and capping, and they can both fight and shoot decently well in a pinch. You can use either one and build whatever army you want around either one, but it's a lot easier to build around units that can more easily score VP. And because of this, I admire anyone who manages to make Skitarii work.
Now, seriously, can we drop the negativity?
RenegadeKorps wrote: Can someone explain to me how or why this list is a good list? I found it on Reddit. It includes 4 Termites. I like lists no one plays, but can’t understand this one. Isn’t something many factions can do?
I quote :
It excells at Alpha Striking and is excellent at preventing being Alpha struck. I've lost 2 games out of 25 with it.
The idea is to pre game move all the termites up the field and deploy with the least amount of drops so you always get that +1 to the turn one roll. Then either turn 1 or at worst turn 2 charge.
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [74 PL, 1197pts] Forge World: Stygies VIII
Lord of War [30 PL, 604pts] Knight Castellan [30 PL, 604pts]: 2x Shieldbreaker Missile [24pts], 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon [70pts], Volcano Lance, Plasma Decimator, 2x Twin Meltagun, Titanic feet
Because the Drills protect their contents on the drop and are really strong themselves for killing vehicles. Back when infiltration was a thing, they were really hot. Now they're a bit meh.
Justin Lois was the top-ranked AdMech player at LVO, and he actually had a list like this. From memory:
VladimirHerzog wrote: Hmm, are breachers actually considered good? I see them pop up in some lists (and in the recent argument in this thread). I fail to see their strength since on paper they feel very underwhelming. Im genuinly curious since im all for having more playable models.
In general, the Kataphrons have become a lot more appealing pointswise. One key point is that making them Mars might be the secret sauce, as Hulksmash pointed out. Going from S6 to S7 is big; each point of strength in the S6-9 band is very impactful. I personally have not had much success with them, but I am more of a toolbox player and dislike multi-role units. It bothers me when things that don't specialize like Custodes, Dreadnoughts, and now Breachers don't do everything they can do in most games, but I can see the utility in having some generalization to handle uncertainty.
Hulksmash wrote: I'm gonna confess to having trouble following your train of thought. It's kinda all over the place. As for your defense of suzeto go for it but realize that it was mostly his casually dismissive arrogance and disbelief of other play styles that started that train. One you're following admirably I the tracks of. I think you need to realize just how much the landscape has changed with ca18 and vigulus. It's a new time. The meta is also shifting with the addition of orks and gsc. Also not to be a dick but the earlier crops of "admech" experts aren't burning up the scene so maybe, just maybe, there might be merit I others thoughts who are having success
I didn't want to wade back into this. But I think you are unfairly characterizing what I said. Go back to page 198. My first post was to congratulate you. My second post was mild disagreement and then I commented that Guard should be nerfed. Then the negativity hammers came out. I spent most of the time defending what in my opinion is a too-powerful strategy that should not need defending and cautioning you all against underestimating it or shying from abusing its competitive aspects--while some of you personally attacked me, I might add.
Going to summarize it again: Skitarii are pretty good shooters, but they are slow and narrow in scope. Guardsmen are very versatile. They can run crazy fast, have good body count for screening and capping, and they can both fight and shoot decently well in a pinch. You can use either one and build whatever army you want around either one, but it's a lot easier to build around units that can more easily score VP. And because of this, I admire anyone who manages to make Skitarii work.
Now, seriously, can we drop the negativity?
RenegadeKorps wrote: Can someone explain to me how or why this list is a good list? I found it on Reddit. It includes 4 Termites. I like lists no one plays, but can’t understand this one. Isn’t something many factions can do?
I quote :
It excells at Alpha Striking and is excellent at preventing being Alpha struck. I've lost 2 games out of 25 with it.
The idea is to pre game move all the termites up the field and deploy with the least amount of drops so you always get that +1 to the turn one roll. Then either turn 1 or at worst turn 2 charge.
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [74 PL, 1197pts] Forge World: Stygies VIII
Lord of War [30 PL, 604pts] Knight Castellan [30 PL, 604pts]: 2x Shieldbreaker Missile [24pts], 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon [70pts], Volcano Lance, Plasma Decimator, 2x Twin Meltagun, Titanic feet
Because the Drills protect their contents on the drop and are really strong themselves for killing vehicles. Back when infiltration was a thing, they were really hot. Now they're a bit meh.
Justin Lois was the top-ranked AdMech player at LVO, and he actually had a list like this. From memory:
Well, you can see Hulksmash doing it right there in that quote. Others have done so as well; go back and see for yourself . (Don't report anything, as I think this is our last strike; we AdMech players have been a very rowdy bunch in the past.)
But hey, maybe it was unintentional and people were just mischaracterizing what I have been trying to say. I'd like to think we're all passionate about this game and our experiences.
Suzuteo wrote: Well, you can see Hulksmash doing it right there in that quote. Others have done so as well; go back and see for yourself . (Don't report anything, as I think this is our last strike; we AdMech players have been a very rowdy bunch in the past.)
But hey, maybe it was unintentional and people were just mischaracterizing what I have been trying to say. I'd like to think we're all passionate about this game and our experiences.
Looking back at it all it didnt seem that bad, it just got pointless as its two different styles of play. Ive tried to shut it down but people kept bringing it back up. With what Hulksmash saying about dismissive arrogance is a bit rude but its probably more of a jest then a bad remark. As you say we are a rowdy bunch, which is because of our treatment as a faction has generally been bad through out the life of 8th so far.
I really think its more of the case of some of us are getting fed up of having to soup to remain competitive, once you start swapping units out for another factions variant you begin to forget what they do, hence the whole apples and oranges comment i made a few pages back. It is really if skitarii or guard are that person's cup of tea at the end of the day and this whole discuss has gone in circles. From no on people shouldnt blow holes in other peoples lists (and im not saying you did that, actually Yoda just did that before which was really quite rude if im honest) and instead get an understanding of how that person plays their army first before we add our own opinions and criticisms to it.
I will apologise for my attitude before as im feeling quite defeated with 8th but my point still stands that neither person is wrong, its just two styles of play. Maybe we will see more Purer Admech builds down the line in the competitive scene (who knows what that new tech priest will do for us, could be a game changer), the Meta changes pretty much every month so whats good now may not be good next month.
No, I get that feeling. Like I said in the debate, I also tried to make Skitarii work. Got my teeth kicked in enough times by Soup to learn my lessons.
Eh, Yoda comes off as more blunt than he intends. I work with a lot of foreigners with English as a second language, and you sort of just have to make better assumptions of people.
No apology is needed.
I actually hope they are Skitarii or Servitor "officers" myself.
Suzuteo wrote: No, I get that feeling. Like I said in the debate, I also tried to make Skitarii work. Got my teeth kicked in enough times by Soup to learn my lessons.
Eh, Yoda comes off as more blunt than he intends. I work with a lot of foreigners with English as a second language, and you sort of just have to make better assumptions of people.
No apology is needed.
I actually hope they are Skitarii or Servitor "officers" myself.
A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.
About the termite list I can understand the termite is not expensive for its capability and toughness, but its content seems squishy. I don't see how 50 skitarii models without special weapons can hope to accomplish anything. And why play the hoplites? I miss the Haywire rule... In the T8 department, Leman Russ seems far superior than a Drill with its content. I'd like to make a competitive list based on the Termite, but I'm not convinced. Maybe I should wait for the 30k model rules.
deffrekka wrote: A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.
I really should look into that. Would be great to have more variety than small, medium, and large. Haha.
Hulksmash wrote: Also this is where my pure admech is starting at. Currently it's 11pts over but that's fixable;
I just noticed this part of the post, which has a list. There is a problem here: You can't Mindlock your Breachers with Cawl. It has to be a Dominus. Hope you haven't been playing that wrong. (Unless they FAQed that somewhere?)
RenegadeKorps wrote: About the termite list
I can understand the termite is not expensive for its capability and toughness, but its content seems squishy. I don't see how 50 skitarii models without special weapons can hope to accomplish anything. And why play the hoplites? I miss the Haywire rule...
In the T8 department, Leman Russ seems far superior than a Drill with its content.
I'd like to make a competitive list based on the Termite, but I'm not convinced. Maybe I should wait for the 30k model rules.
I think the usual barrel of monkeys approach is to bring Fulgurites, which are amazing on the charge and after they make a kill.
U02dah4 wrote: Well im running 9 to a gt this weekend particularly in agripinaa they are tanky for their points solid as frontline melee. They tend to attract firepower but often live due to the agripinaa strat and make their pts back over a few turns of shooting not to mention in shielding other units
As to Lvo data only three lists ran them but they did better on avg than the admech lists without.
so you stick them at the front of you castle and mow down whatever comes close and failing that , take potshots at vehicles? I'll have to try them (so i have an excuse to convert some bullgryn with the breacher weapons bit that were leftover from my destroyers), but the 2 hits with BS4 is making me nervous.
Pretty much i run agripinaa so i can bring them back if their badly damaged and often reroll 1's to wound with eye. played tau today and every model was alive at the end of the game (despite a number of casualties). On any given tyrn he damage output isnt great but they did more net than my ryzaphrones and soaked more damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hulksmash wrote: If you already run a dominus the you can get them to a 3+ reroll 1s for a cp. Mine are actually generally behind the line of rangers so they can shoot and counter attack. But I've got a buddy using them as front line smashers
Parallel to vanguard for me I sometimes charge with them. Followed up by a vanguard to W a sm equivalent on a 2+
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The GSG Vect strat has the pre-FAQ pricing, its probably going to get set to 4cp in the next FAQ.
Yeah thats what im saying, the GSC version will most likely get the price hike too in their FAQ. What U02dah4 is saying is a bit silly, just think if a chaos knight book came out and they had their own version of order of companions and it was the cost before its nerf. Just because there are from a different faction doesnt mean it shouldnt cost the same. Its things like this that ruin the game.
Don't know why it wont quote the above
What I am saying is that the same ability can be available to two significantly different factions at different costs and those factions can still be balanced overall.
I do not have enough evidence to know how GSC will perform once people have got to grips with them.
I do know that eldar are one of the strongest factions. I hypotheise that their power levels will be different
What you are saying is giving the same powerful ability to two identical factions will make one overpowered. You are right but that is not the same situation.
if you gave order of companions to inquisition, grey knights, elucidean starstriders or necrons would they be equally overpowered
Of by mondlock you mean hmthe +1 to hit on the breachers for shooting nope, I dont use it since i dont have the dominus. Straight 4+ rerollable for me. Not sure where you got the idea I did
I'm considering 3 Termites + 3x12 fulgurite priests (Stygies, and possibly -3CP for scout move) with a Manipulus. It clocks at 1068 pts, so 932 pts left. What would be the best units from there? I have Sob, Custodes and IG armies. I might buy an Atropos Knight.
Of by mondlock you mean hmthe +1 to hit on the breachers for shooting nope, I dont use it since i dont have the dominus. Straight 4+ rerollable for me. Not sure where you got the idea I did
Oh. But that's one of the reasons why they're so good. The BS4 has been holding them back for awhile.
Ideasweasel wrote: Off topic but anyone got any intel or guesses as to how long before forgeworld drip feed us some mechanicum 40k rules ala custodes style
Forgeworld are no longer doing the 40k side of things when it comes to rules, It has now been passed on to Citadel ires of Cyraxus is in their hands now so hopefully we will get it quicker
U02dah4 wrote: Well im running 9 to a gt this weekend particularly in agripinaa they are tanky for their points solid as frontline melee. They tend to attract firepower but often live due to the agripinaa strat and make their pts back over a few turns of shooting not to mention in shielding other units
As to Lvo data only three lists ran them but they did better on avg than the admech lists without.
so you stick them at the front of you castle and mow down whatever comes close and failing that , take potshots at vehicles? I'll have to try them (so i have an excuse to convert some bullgryn with the breacher weapons bit that were leftover from my destroyers), but the 2 hits with BS4 is making me nervous.
Pretty much i run agripinaa so i can bring them back if their badly damaged and often reroll 1's to wound with eye. played tau today and every model was alive at the end of the game (despite a number of casualties). On any given tyrn he damage output isnt great but they did more net than my ryzaphrones and soaked more damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hulksmash wrote: If you already run a dominus the you can get them to a 3+ reroll 1s for a cp. Mine are actually generally behind the line of rangers so they can shoot and counter attack. But I've got a buddy using them as front line smashers
Parallel to vanguard for me I sometimes charge with them. Followed up by a vanguard to W a sm equivalent on a 2+
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The GSG Vect strat has the pre-FAQ pricing, its probably going to get set to 4cp in the next FAQ.
Yeah thats what im saying, the GSC version will most likely get the price hike too in their FAQ. What U02dah4 is saying is a bit silly, just think if a chaos knight book came out and they had their own version of order of companions and it was the cost before its nerf. Just because there are from a different faction doesnt mean it shouldnt cost the same. Its things like this that ruin the game.
Don't know why it wont quote the above
What I am saying is that the same ability can be available to two significantly different factions at different costs and those factions can still be balanced overall.
I do not have enough evidence to know how GSC will perform once people have got to grips with them.
I do know that eldar are one of the strongest factions. I hypotheise that their power levels will be different
What you are saying is giving the same powerful ability to two identical factions will make one overpowered. You are right but that is not the same situation.
if you gave order of companions to inquisition, grey knights, elucidean starstriders or necrons would they be equally overpowered
Genecult are already up there for one of the strongest factions in the game right now, they cover numbers, speed, combat and psychic extremely well and the only thing they are subpar on is shooting which they can quite easily elevate with Nids or Brood Brothers. When the game is primarily about objectives, GSC have a HUGE advantage in that field, they are essentially guard with deployment shenanigans. They can weather turn 1 fairly well if they go second, they have one of the best psychic powers in the game now, cheap characters that all buff nearby GSC units, amazing CC units in Abberants and the your bog standard Acolytes. With my Genecult i havent lost a game with the new dex, if you play them right (most batreps on YouTube dont) they are extremely hard to fight against. If anything next CA Acolytes and Handflamers need to go up in cost, as they are ridiculously good. Pair it with them swimming in CP with a 40pt character to farm it back they are crazy good. You then soup in Nids to fill out your weaknesses and its a lot more potent than an Eldar Soup. Thus their strat should also cost 4CP. Just like if Chaos Knights had Order of Companions it would be the post FAQ cost even if Renegade Knights arent the same as Imperial Knights (they arent).
Orkz and Grey Knights have strats that are over priced compared to other faction which is well known. As are some of ours (the cantical ones mainly, have you ever used it? I havent, not once). Eldar are one of the strongest factions due to speed, psychic, shooting and assault so when Genecult do the same but hold objectives better and can easily turn 2 deepstrike charge its very easily to see that Genecult is a Meta changer and around my area there has been a huge upsurge of people switching to them and as an Admech player im going to have to adapt to that, but as i play GSC also i have a better understanding of the army and their limits.
A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.
This game has made me realise the one thing i wish our techpriest had : massive customisation options. (Im talking about a fluffy aspect now, obviously it would be harder to balance) I would love to see our techpriests have 'slots' that we can equip ANY admech weapon, and also have buffs that are equippable but take up slots (youd still pay for everything accordingly). That way you'd be able to get a techpriest with no aura but like with dual wielding incendine combustors going ham in the enemy lines, or get a purely buff character that has the dominus + manipulus buff for example. Realistically i dont think that would happen and even if it did, there would be like one competitive build (stack buffs) that would be played. Would be dope for narrative games.
U02dah4 wrote: Having the potential to do well and looking like they have the tools is not the same thing as 12 months of data showing success in the 55-70% ranged.
One is speculation one is firm evidence
And you only need to look at earlier discussions on something like how good a ranger is to see how people can give wildly different estimates.
Im not saying your wrong just that we need to see what the data shows before jumping to conclusions
Well yeah but thats unfair viewpoint towards the GSC. Just because they havent been out for over 12 months doesnt mean they arent strong. They are probably one of the few codexes that have and will change the meta in an explosive way. Most armies wont have the data for 6 months to prove anything about there current state in the competitive scene, but you can compare a new codex to others to see how successful they will be. When a codex naturally excels at 4-5 of the 6 aspects of the game whilst being cheap makes them a strong contender and you dont need 12 months of data to prove that. The game changes too much to even use 12 months as a firm range of information to use, Eldar was October 2017? If i remember correctly they were not a massively strong codex, Harliequins and Dark Eldar were yet to be realised and they were quite overcosted (except dark reapers). Dark Eldar was then April 2018 and Harlies May 2018. Then Eldar started started to be something scary, but from the get go and as a standalone faction of Craftworlders they were not. They were released along side Guard and Tyranids that stole all the thunder and was the current hotness of the time. We then have to take into account the big FAQ 2 and that changed things again, so i can say Eldar havent been kings for the majority of the Meta, maybe in the likes of ITC but not in the game as a wider whole.
From pure speculation yes GSC will be a huge shift to the current game, but speculation isnt a bad thing, most things start out by guesses and hypothesis, eventually the data will back up the new Nid Soup as being a top contender for number 1 on the podium. Rangers are a touchy feely subject, as a troop choice compared to many other ones in the game they are amazing for their cost, but when things like Guardsmen and Acolytes exist people will always assume they are subpar, people estimate wildly as people dont use them, instead they rely on maths and statistics but until you actually use them youll never know how they perform. There are more aspects to the game instead of can it kill GEQ and can it survive. The game is more about resources and time. If someone shoots or charges Rangers over Destroyers thats a win for the Admech and whilst yes Guardsmen can be a better screen it still doesnt diminish the fact your Rangers still affected the game. It may be in a mariginal way but overall it can cost your opponent the game.
I am very pro Ranger just like Hulksmash and i find them to be extremely good for what they bring to the table. I dont care if Guard are a better option, i still find them to be good. Just like how im not fond of Vanguard, in my opinion they have been butchered this edition with the change to Radiums, Calivers and the lose of scout moves and army wide Doctrines. Gone are the days of of squads of 10 Vanguard with 3 Calivers at BS 6 nuking things off the board.
All things considered it would be quite foolish to underestimate the strength of GSC right now in this Meta and thus there AoV ability should cost accordingly to the current post FAQ cost. Any stratagem that stops someone elses is strong no matter if its in the hands of Orkz, Grey Knights, Tau or Necrons. When most armies are built around stratagems and the combinations you make with them, if you remove a link from that chain you can cost the opponent to loose the game. Get ride of Elimination Protocols and youve made that blob of Destroyers less effective. Stop Plasma Specialists of Weapons of the Dark Age and suddenly those plasma weapons arent extreme death rays of doom and sadness. Shutting down any one of the following: Mob Up, Showin Off, Moar Dakka, Grot Shield and all of a sudden that Loota Star is very veryyyyy weak. Either Order of Companions, Rotate Ion Shields, Machine Spirit Resurgence not going off limits the affectiveness of the Castellan. Getting ride of Apon Wings of Fire to stop that Smash Captain making a 3d6 charge. Nullifying someone elses AoV against you on a crucial strat late game. Yeah its hugely important regardless of what army you are.
If my Orkz had that it would boost them massively and same with my Dark Angels, you can control your opponents stratagems and thus change how they play. You are manipulating a key aspect of the game, so yes it should cost the same for any faction, just like pretty much every single fight again strat is 3CP, i could be wrong but im pretty sure its 3CP for every army that has it, even if Orkz are better than what other faction has it in CC, its still the same cost across the board.
A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.
This game has made me realise the one thing i wish our techpriest had : massive customisation options. (Im talking about a fluffy aspect now, obviously it would be harder to balance) I would love to see our techpriests have 'slots' that we can equip ANY admech weapon, and also have buffs that are equippable but take up slots (youd still pay for everything accordingly). That way you'd be able to get a techpriest with no aura but like with dual wielding incendine combustors going ham in the enemy lines, or get a purely buff character that has the dominus + manipulus buff for example. Realistically i dont think that would happen and even if it did, there would be like one competitive build (stack buffs) that would be played. Would be dope for narrative games.
In the books this happens a lot too, i really like the Archmagos Samekh Umbra who has vast clones of himself who all have the same knowledge as him but each changes their form as an individual. In the Skitarius novel there is an Alpha who has a Mechanitor Array that have 2 Plasma Calivers. We kind of had it back in 7th with wargear options but thats gone now, GW has shut down the whole "if its not in the kit you cant have it" thing they have going on. This cost Orkz the Looted Wagon for example. They could easily release a wargear kit for our Techpriest that contains Combustors, Atomisers, Plamsas, Torsion Cannons and Phosphor weaponary and that would be sweet but its highly unlikely. The new Techpriest guy has a Eradication Pistol and i would love that on my Dominus instead of his Serpenta, or the Manipulus to have an actual long ranged weapon but it will most likely never happen.
A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.
This game has made me realise the one thing i wish our techpriest had : massive customisation options. (Im talking about a fluffy aspect now, obviously it would be harder to balance) I would love to see our techpriests have 'slots' that we can equip ANY admech weapon, and also have buffs that are equippable but take up slots (youd still pay for everything accordingly). That way you'd be able to get a techpriest with no aura but like with dual wielding incendine combustors going ham in the enemy lines, or get a purely buff character that has the dominus + manipulus buff for example. Realistically i dont think that would happen and even if it did, there would be like one competitive build (stack buffs) that would be played. Would be dope for narrative games.
You can kind of do it in narrative play with the custom hero rules but you'll need to have a good opponent who's not going to just cheese the snot out of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also a bit off topic but with all this hype about assassins maybe the transuranic arquebus will see some more use? If we have a serious threat of these units being thrown at us we probably have the best non assassin snipers in the game to pick them off early. That said I know fairly little about assassins so I don't know if they have any special invulns or something that would make the arquebuses useless.
U02dah4 wrote: Having the potential to do well and looking like they have the tools is not the same thing as 12 months of data showing success in the 55-70% ranged.
One is speculation one is firm evidence
And you only need to look at earlier discussions on something like how good a ranger is to see how people can give wildly different estimates.
Im not saying your wrong just that we need to see what the data shows before jumping to conclusions
Well yeah but thats unfair viewpoint towards the GSC. Just because they havent been out for over 12 months doesnt mean they arent strong. They are probably one of the few codexes that have and will change the meta in an explosive way. Most armies wont have the data for 6 months to prove anything about there current state in the competitive scene, but you can compare a new codex to others to see how successful they will be. When a codex naturally excels at 4-5 of the 6 aspects of the game whilst being cheap makes them a strong contender and you dont need 12 months of data to prove that. The game changes too much to even use 12 months as a firm range of information to use, Eldar was October 2017? If i remember correctly they were not a massively strong codex, Harliequins and Dark Eldar were yet to be realised and they were quite overcosted (except dark reapers). Dark Eldar was then April 2018 and Harlies May 2018. Then Eldar started started to be something scary, but from the get go and as a standalone faction of Craftworlders they were not. They were released along side Guard and Tyranids that stole all the thunder and was the current hotness of the time. We then have to take into account the big FAQ 2 and that changed things again, so i can say Eldar havent been kings for the majority of the Meta, maybe in the likes of ITC but not in the game as a wider whole.
From pure speculation yes GSC will be a huge shift to the current game, but speculation isnt a bad thing, most things start out by guesses and hypothesis, eventually the data will back up the new Nid Soup as being a top contender for number 1 on the podium. Rangers are a touchy feely subject, as a troop choice compared to many other ones in the game they are amazing for their cost, but when things like Guardsmen and Acolytes exist people will always assume they are subpar, people estimate wildly as people dont use them, instead they rely on maths and statistics but until you actually use them youll never know how they perform. There are more aspects to the game instead of can it kill GEQ and can it survive. The game is more about resources and time. If someone shoots or charges Rangers over Destroyers thats a win for the Admech and whilst yes Guardsmen can be a better screen it still doesnt diminish the fact your Rangers still affected the game. It may be in a mariginal way but overall it can cost your opponent the game.
I am very pro Ranger just like Hulksmash and i find them to be extremely good for what they bring to the table. I dont care if Guard are a better option, i still find them to be good. Just like how im not fond of Vanguard, in my opinion they have been butchered this edition with the change to Radiums, Calivers and the lose of scout moves and army wide Doctrines. Gone are the days of of squads of 10 Vanguard with 3 Calivers at BS 6 nuking things off the board.
All things considered it would be quite foolish to underestimate the strength of GSC right now in this Meta and thus there AoV ability should cost accordingly to the current post FAQ cost. Any stratagem that stops someone elses is strong no matter if its in the hands of Orkz, Grey Knights, Tau or Necrons. When most armies are built around stratagems and the combinations you make with them, if you remove a link from that chain you can cost the opponent to loose the game. Get ride of Elimination Protocols and youve made that blob of Destroyers less effective. Stop Plasma Specialists of Weapons of the Dark Age and suddenly those plasma weapons arent extreme death rays of doom and sadness. Shutting down any one of the following: Mob Up, Showin Off, Moar Dakka, Grot Shield and all of a sudden that Loota Star is very veryyyyy weak. Either Order of Companions, Rotate Ion Shields, Machine Spirit Resurgence not going off limits the affectiveness of the Castellan. Getting ride of Apon Wings of Fire to stop that Smash Captain making a 3d6 charge. Nullifying someone elses AoV against you on a crucial strat late game. Yeah its hugely important regardless of what army you are.
If my Orkz had that it would boost them massively and same with my Dark Angels, you can control your opponents stratagems and thus change how they play. You are manipulating a key aspect of the game, so yes it should cost the same for any faction, just like pretty much every single fight again strat is 3CP, i could be wrong but im pretty sure its 3CP for every army that has it, even if Orkz are better than what other faction has it in CC, its still the same cost across the board.
A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.
This game has made me realise the one thing i wish our techpriest had : massive customisation options. (Im talking about a fluffy aspect now, obviously it would be harder to balance) I would love to see our techpriests have 'slots' that we can equip ANY admech weapon, and also have buffs that are equippable but take up slots (youd still pay for everything accordingly). That way you'd be able to get a techpriest with no aura but like with dual wielding incendine combustors going ham in the enemy lines, or get a purely buff character that has the dominus + manipulus buff for example. Realistically i dont think that would happen and even if it did, there would be like one competitive build (stack buffs) that would be played. Would be dope for narrative games.
In the books this happens a lot too, i really like the Archmagos Samekh Umbra who has vast clones of himself who all have the same knowledge as him but each changes their form as an individual. In the Skitarius novel there is an Alpha who has a Mechanitor Array that have 2 Plasma Calivers. We kind of had it back in 7th with wargear options but thats gone now, GW has shut down the whole "if its not in the kit you cant have it" thing they have going on. This cost Orkz the Looted Wagon for example. They could easily release a wargear kit for our Techpriest that contains Combustors, Atomisers, Plamsas, Torsion Cannons and Phosphor weaponary and that would be sweet but its highly unlikely. The new Techpriest guy has a Eradication Pistol and i would love that on my Dominus instead of his Serpenta, or the Manipulus to have an actual long ranged weapon but it will most likely never happen.
Its entirely fair if your saying it takes 6 months to evaluate give them 6 months come back in september. I'm not saying they arn't strong just that I am not certain how strong they are. True its an arbitrary time frame and if they take first place in every tournament for the next 3 months we might want to intervene sooner. However a couple of weeks and no major wins/GT firsts(to my knowledge) is too soon to confirm.
People were saying the same thing about orks shakeing up the meta not long ago and they have been somewhat lacklustre
It's a strong ability but an army is more than one strategem. I don't underestimate or overestimate them i just say I do not know how good they are untill i see significant testing.
Finnally grey knights do well on your metrics - Strong shooting strong CC mobile (so much DS) strong psychic. Yet they suck 1 bad metric is all it takes sometimes in gk terms cost
U02dah4 wrote: Having the potential to do well and looking like they have the tools is not the same thing as 12 months of data showing success in the 55-70% ranged.
One is speculation one is firm evidence
And you only need to look at earlier discussions on something like how good a ranger is to see how people can give wildly different estimates.
Im not saying your wrong just that we need to see what the data shows before jumping to conclusions
Well yeah but thats unfair viewpoint towards the GSC. Just because they havent been out for over 12 months doesnt mean they arent strong. They are probably one of the few codexes that have and will change the meta in an explosive way. Most armies wont have the data for 6 months to prove anything about there current state in the competitive scene, but you can compare a new codex to others to see how successful they will be. When a codex naturally excels at 4-5 of the 6 aspects of the game whilst being cheap makes them a strong contender and you dont need 12 months of data to prove that. The game changes too much to even use 12 months as a firm range of information to use, Eldar was October 2017? If i remember correctly they were not a massively strong codex, Harliequins and Dark Eldar were yet to be realised and they were quite overcosted (except dark reapers). Dark Eldar was then April 2018 and Harlies May 2018. Then Eldar started started to be something scary, but from the get go and as a standalone faction of Craftworlders they were not. They were released along side Guard and Tyranids that stole all the thunder and was the current hotness of the time. We then have to take into account the big FAQ 2 and that changed things again, so i can say Eldar havent been kings for the majority of the Meta, maybe in the likes of ITC but not in the game as a wider whole.
From pure speculation yes GSC will be a huge shift to the current game, but speculation isnt a bad thing, most things start out by guesses and hypothesis, eventually the data will back up the new Nid Soup as being a top contender for number 1 on the podium. Rangers are a touchy feely subject, as a troop choice compared to many other ones in the game they are amazing for their cost, but when things like Guardsmen and Acolytes exist people will always assume they are subpar, people estimate wildly as people dont use them, instead they rely on maths and statistics but until you actually use them youll never know how they perform. There are more aspects to the game instead of can it kill GEQ and can it survive. The game is more about resources and time. If someone shoots or charges Rangers over Destroyers thats a win for the Admech and whilst yes Guardsmen can be a better screen it still doesnt diminish the fact your Rangers still affected the game. It may be in a mariginal way but overall it can cost your opponent the game.
I am very pro Ranger just like Hulksmash and i find them to be extremely good for what they bring to the table. I dont care if Guard are a better option, i still find them to be good. Just like how im not fond of Vanguard, in my opinion they have been butchered this edition with the change to Radiums, Calivers and the lose of scout moves and army wide Doctrines. Gone are the days of of squads of 10 Vanguard with 3 Calivers at BS 6 nuking things off the board.
All things considered it would be quite foolish to underestimate the strength of GSC right now in this Meta and thus there AoV ability should cost accordingly to the current post FAQ cost. Any stratagem that stops someone elses is strong no matter if its in the hands of Orkz, Grey Knights, Tau or Necrons. When most armies are built around stratagems and the combinations you make with them, if you remove a link from that chain you can cost the opponent to loose the game. Get ride of Elimination Protocols and youve made that blob of Destroyers less effective. Stop Plasma Specialists of Weapons of the Dark Age and suddenly those plasma weapons arent extreme death rays of doom and sadness. Shutting down any one of the following: Mob Up, Showin Off, Moar Dakka, Grot Shield and all of a sudden that Loota Star is very veryyyyy weak. Either Order of Companions, Rotate Ion Shields, Machine Spirit Resurgence not going off limits the affectiveness of the Castellan. Getting ride of Apon Wings of Fire to stop that Smash Captain making a 3d6 charge. Nullifying someone elses AoV against you on a crucial strat late game. Yeah its hugely important regardless of what army you are.
If my Orkz had that it would boost them massively and same with my Dark Angels, you can control your opponents stratagems and thus change how they play. You are manipulating a key aspect of the game, so yes it should cost the same for any faction, just like pretty much every single fight again strat is 3CP, i could be wrong but im pretty sure its 3CP for every army that has it, even if Orkz are better than what other faction has it in CC, its still the same cost across the board.
A Sub Domina or Tech Auxilia would be amazing as a troop commander for our Skits. Have you played Mechanicus? That has a lot of insight into what each type of Tech Priest is like.
This game has made me realise the one thing i wish our techpriest had : massive customisation options. (Im talking about a fluffy aspect now, obviously it would be harder to balance) I would love to see our techpriests have 'slots' that we can equip ANY admech weapon, and also have buffs that are equippable but take up slots (youd still pay for everything accordingly). That way you'd be able to get a techpriest with no aura but like with dual wielding incendine combustors going ham in the enemy lines, or get a purely buff character that has the dominus + manipulus buff for example. Realistically i dont think that would happen and even if it did, there would be like one competitive build (stack buffs) that would be played. Would be dope for narrative games.
In the books this happens a lot too, i really like the Archmagos Samekh Umbra who has vast clones of himself who all have the same knowledge as him but each changes their form as an individual. In the Skitarius novel there is an Alpha who has a Mechanitor Array that have 2 Plasma Calivers. We kind of had it back in 7th with wargear options but thats gone now, GW has shut down the whole "if its not in the kit you cant have it" thing they have going on. This cost Orkz the Looted Wagon for example. They could easily release a wargear kit for our Techpriest that contains Combustors, Atomisers, Plamsas, Torsion Cannons and Phosphor weaponary and that would be sweet but its highly unlikely. The new Techpriest guy has a Eradication Pistol and i would love that on my Dominus instead of his Serpenta, or the Manipulus to have an actual long ranged weapon but it will most likely never happen.
Its entirely fair if your saying it takes 6 months to evaluate give them 6 months come back in september. I'm not saying they arn't strong just that I am not certain how strong they are. True its an arbitrary time frame and if they take first place in every tournament for the next 3 months we might want to intervene sooner. However a couple of weeks and no major wins/GT firsts(to my knowledge) is too soon to confirm.
People were saying the same thing about orks shakeing up the meta not long ago and they have been somewhat lacklustre
It's a strong ability but an army is more than one strategem. I don't underestimate or overestimate them i just say I do not know how good they are untill i see significant testing.
Finnally grey knights do well on your metrics - Strong shooting strong CC mobile (so much DS) strong psychic. Yet they suck 1 bad metric is all it takes sometimes in gk terms cost
The problem with Orkz is that they were hyped up for a long time by GW and the likes of FLG but the codex was still trash, why did they hype up the stompa again when its a steaming trash pile. The codex was not done with CA18 in mind (you can see that with the expensive wargear options compared to other races and still pricey units like Burnas and Lootas). They also had the only troop choice in the game that went up in pts in a Codex (not CA), and im still a firm believer that Boyz arent 7pts when compared to Rangers and Acolytes. The buggies were massively over costed and when comparing it to a Ridge Runner they are 30 to 40pts over. What shook up the Meta is Greentide yet again, not warbikes, dreadmobs, specialists, etc. From day one Orkz werent amazing as the Codex wasnt done well and there is still huge holes in the army (why no invuns anymore on our characters, why is cybork body useless, no gitfindas for Big Meks anymore, the lose on the Looted Wagon still).
And i dont find Grey Knights great on my metrics, our Grey Knight playes have left or switched armies around my area, they are still over priced.
Inexperienced admech player and frequent tyranid player with a question here. How important is the psychic phase? I’m looking to run an imperial Knight/admech list in a tournament coming up and the lack of interaction with the psychic phase has me concerned.
Drdotts wrote: Inexperienced admech player and frequent tyranid player with a question here. How important is the psychic phase? I’m looking to run an imperial Knight/admech list in a tournament coming up and the lack of interaction with the psychic phase has me concerned.
if you take a couple of Graia vanguard squads or the new culexus assassin from the March White Dwarf, you probably do not have to worry too much.
What are people’s opinions/thoughts on Kastelans with Fist-loadouts ? I have about 350 pts to play with and I’m looking for a little more anti-knight/vehicle along with some center board presence.
I would run them in Stygies along side some Dragoons. But Do they fill similar roles or would they be cohesive together ?
Kozz wrote: What are people’s opinions/thoughts on Kastelans with Fist-loadouts ? I have about 350 pts to play with and I’m looking for a little more anti-knight/vehicle along with some center board presence.
I would run them in Stygies along side some Dragoons. But Do they fill similar roles or would they be cohesive together ?
Any thoughts / opinions are appreciated !
Lucius bots in a Vigilus detachment work ok. deep strike them, stratagem for additional charge range, change protocols and fight twice...
Kozz wrote: What are people’s opinions/thoughts on Kastelans with Fist-loadouts ? I have about 350 pts to play with and I’m looking for a little more anti-knight/vehicle along with some center board presence.
I would run them in Stygies along side some Dragoons. But Do they fill similar roles or would they be cohesive together ?
Any thoughts / opinions are appreciated !
I'm playing a 2000 pts list with a Cybernetica Lucius Battalion and a Servitor Maniple Agripinaa Battalion, with a single unit of 4 Fistellans with combustors and their Datasmith, and so far they've done great almost each game.
They're nice because you drop them and just sow mayhem in the middle of the table, nobody can ignore 4 Robots punching their way through and they're actually a good option against Knights of all sorts because the Knights' invulnerable save doesn't work in CC. My strategy generally is to clear the screens if there's any in the first turn to make some room for them later. If there's no screens I'll drop them T1. I have them shoot something with their combustors and then charge with the +3 stratagem, they never missed a charge that way and made a 14" charge once thanks to that. Just remember that you can't declare a charge against a unit further than 12".
For their protocols, I'll see with their current targets if I change them right away or not. As you drop the Datasmith nearby you can change them freely for the next round, or do it with BO whenever you feel like. I usually charge with Aegis activated to weather Overwatch and either keep it if I feel like the enemy will disengage next turn, or switch to double fight right away and use pile-in shenanigans to bog down a maximum of stuff in CC and/or really destroy my target.
Remember to absolutely use the reroll 1s in CC Canticle when you make them go double-fist mode because the reroll is really needed with their 4+ WS.
As for Stygies, I ran them once or twice this way and they're great when Infiltrated alongside Dragoons, as long as you roll first turn, else they become a too obvious target. But if you can manage to go first you'll cover more distance with your 8" move, bringing you closer to your targets of choice. Remember you need the Datasmith within 3" for the +3 strat to work though.
The good
Breachers these were amazing i had one squad of 6 lose 14 across one game. They soak so much firepower were reasonable in CC. They survived well
Vanguardclumped them into2 blocks of 3x5 man squads putting out 45 great in most games and the double damage on 6's made them reasonable vs the bigger and small stuff
Neutronagas generally great in every game except 1 where they died T1.
The lone lucius engineseer with solar flare really great for that objective grab/behind enemy lines
Ok
Mars Infilrators really good in half my games but really lack lustre in the other half partially down to rolling and needing 6's
Hoplites didn't see a lot of vehicles so the damage was negligable but they held the line a couple of games if the enemy held back no so great.
Servitors parked on objectives killed 1 model in 6 games but freed up my other units.
Ballistarii They were ok but if i wasnt brigadeing i wouldn't use them
The bad
Kastelans against plague bearers/custodes/knights/eldar they were of minimal value the games they were ok in i really didn't need them to deal with my opponents.
Ryzaphrones worst unit in the list 3 games wiped or reduced to 1 model before my turn 1 against a plaguebearer hoard they had no good targets. Against a custodes list they were reasonable. They were however great vs a castellan. Even with the 5++ they struggled with durability
Both units really struggled to justify their high cost
So if ryzaphrons and Kastellans were your weak choices what do you think you would take instead, seeing as these are some of our main firepower units? Primarily interested in admech but I assume there are obvious choices outside the codex like a Castellan for example.
What was the issue with the Kastellans? Was it planting their feet made them easy to avoid and predict or was their damage output just kind of minimal?
The Ryzaphrons make sense, anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together is going to be targeting them asap and they just don't have the durability the Breachers have.
If you're not bringing Kastellan and Kataphrons I'm wondering what you would do for pure admech aside from 3 neutron Onagers. I guess a crap ton of ballistaari, maybe arquebus ranger spam, and drills? Perhaps some way to deepstrike vanguard in with plasma too. Dropping all the Kastellans and Kataphrons leaves a ton of points free to dramatically rework the army, that's for sure.
Aaranis wrote: I'm playing a 2000 pts list with a Cybernetica Lucius Battalion and a Servitor Maniple Agripinaa Battalion, with a single unit of 4 Fistellans with combustors and their Datasmith, and so far they've done great almost each game.
They're nice because you drop them and just sow mayhem in the middle of the table, nobody can ignore 4 Robots punching their way through and they're actually a good option against Knights of all sorts because the Knights' invulnerable save doesn't work in CC. My strategy generally is to clear the screens if there's any in the first turn to make some room for them later. If there's no screens I'll drop them T1. I have them shoot something with their combustors and then charge with the +3 stratagem, they never missed a charge that way and made a 14" charge once thanks to that. Just remember that you can't declare a charge against a unit further than 12".
Are the Combustors worth it now that they cost the same as the Phosphors? I always found that the Phosphor is more useful for clearing infantry in cover.
The interesting thing about Fistbots is that most people don't know what they do. I can imagine melee Knights not taking Sanctuary just because of them, which is a mistake. That being said, Styrixes have built-in Sanctuary, and they can really wreck Robots with a Reaper; if they take Ravager as their relic because they don't see W10 targets, be very careful.
U02dah4 wrote: Ryzaphrones worst unit in the list 3 games wiped or reduced to 1 model before my turn 1 against a plaguebearer hoard they had no good targets. Against a custodes list they were reasonable. They were however great vs a castellan. Even with the 5++ they struggled with durability
This is what Wulfey and I both noted as well. I think Dagger is the way to go when it comes to Ryzaphrons. And I am not sure if taking the 5++ is even worth it sometimes. Haha.
I will have to try the Breachers... need to figure out how though. I don't want to make another six Kataphron kits. The way I build and paint makes it slow-going for them. Any conversion ideas?
EDIT: And immediately after asking, I see the Ambots. Hmmm...
MrMoustaffa wrote: What was the issue with the Kastellans? Was it planting their feet made them easy to avoid and predict or was their damage output just kind of minimal?
I would look at rooting Kastelans not as a weakness, but as a cost. You are sacrificing movement to do huge burst, then gain board control in a 36" radius. This style is great for when you are playing objectives. It's a conservative approach. Lock down an area to score primary points, and force them to come to you. A lot of armies, like Tau and Eldar, actually struggle in this sort of battle and can get worn down. (In a way, this is sort of AdMech's MO when it comes to a faction strategy. Even Breachers seem to be good for this sort of thing.)
But even if you need to keep them moving, such as against Lootas and such, Aegis Bots are still solid shooting; a pair of them can still wipe any pretty much any T3 infantry MSU off the board. Very durable too.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So if ryzaphrons and Kastellans were your weak choices what do you think you would take instead, seeing as these are some of our main firepower units? Primarily interested in admech but I assume there are obvious choices outside the codex like a Castellan for example.
What was the issue with the Kastellans? Was it planting their feet made them easy to avoid and predict or was their damage output just kind of minimal?
The Ryzaphrons make sense, anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together is going to be targeting them asap and they just don't have the durability the Breachers have.
If you're not bringing Kastellan and Kataphrons I'm wondering what you would do for pure admech aside from 3 neutron Onagers. I guess a crap ton of ballistaari, maybe arquebus ranger spam, and drills? Perhaps some way to deepstrike vanguard in with plasma too. Dropping all the Kastellans and Kataphrons leaves a ton of points free to dramatically rework the army, that's for sure.
An extra Neutronager and more breachers should cover the AV although I might be tempted to go out of faction
Kastellans vs
stacked -1 eldar very little damage as your hitting on 6's
150 plaguebearer hoard T4 5++5+++ very little damage especially with the -1 to hit
Knights their infantry held up in ruins and couldn't be targeted and the knights took very little damage
custodes bikers bunny hopped ruins out of LOS until they could tie them up
scions alpha strike list all their infantry was dead on T1 then very little damage to the supporting vehicles/knight
Harlequinns They were ok but they weren't needed to table my opponent (this was the opponent who didn't target the ryzaphrones)
Overall a combination of -1 to hit and my opponents being able to play round them due to there static nature.
Matt Robertson belgium got an ad mech and ripped some enemies final 5-0 Team winners .
As I said two battalions and a guard spearhead.
From guard only mortars. Gg
3 Robots Cawl 9 destoyers rest battalions breachers all.
Enjoy.
My liist removed spear head guard added snipers and onagers.
Yes a bigade Mars can be also a good point if you take assassin's as well.
I don't know exactly my final decision . If I decide I can work with Mars only then I will try brigade for the extra cp.
But so far two battalions give way more options . Still w8ing for assassin's final relase but I m making my lists 1915 max already.
Tip he used hydralic claws I dont needs to be tested as well. But TBH I can't see why not use one vanguard unit even if only hidden and defending .
Highlight servitors 2* graia in guard detached holding objectives back field. Lol
I'm happy I saw all our members her understand my point about all lists work depending on whom is playing them .
As always I wish no offence I apologise in advance for my poor English or if someone gets offended but it's not my purpose. I only say what I test and believe better offering my advice free and all can take it or leave it . No harm feelings .
Started already testing pure mech in local league 3-0 so far .needs more details but is good.
Personal prefference .
If you use Robots I take neutroons .
If you take balistarii take lascannoms
Inflitrattors 6+
Priests 8+
Troops when upgrade weapons go for 1/5 2/6-8 weapons/ unit size. Omnispex 6+ unit
A mobile force icarus and Las cannons balistaii + mixed ryza destroyed etc seems more hard to play but can b alternate to Mars robots.
You might find the lists in a post Greekhammer 40k believe I posted then some time ago or via Glasshammer they where there . Unfortunately my tablet does not lt me post the list but I will try to type it .
Mars batt vigilu 4cp
Domi
Engin
9*destroyed
5* breachers hydro
5* breachers hydo
3*robots
Man people are going hardcore on the Breachers overnight. I'm kind of surprised it took us this long after Chapter approved to notice the utility they have. Although I guess they aren't quite as flashy as the destroyers or Kastellans at first glance, or such an obvious buff like regular Servitors got.
This was a team event so it was a bit modified from normal. Breachers have been on the radar for quite a few people since ca and vigilus dropped. They're just good.
Arc Rifle and Arc Claw seems to be the better loadout, their WS is too low to leverage the Hydraulic Claws with any reliability and Torsion cannons have such low range. For a Servitor Maniple a unit or two of 6+ is probably best in order to use the Warlord Trait and Stratagem. Larger units let them screen much better as well.
Is there a concensus on how best to use Plasmaphrons? I'm torn between Mars 'phrons, Mars Bots and Cawl (for the full re-rolls, Noospheric Mindlock and Elimination Volley but no Plasma Specialists)/Mixed detachment or separate detachments of Ryza 'phrons and Mars Bots (for Noospheric Mindlock and Plasma Specialists but no Elimination Volley or Forgeworld Trait bonus)/full Ryza detachment (for Noospheric Mindlock, Elimination Volley and Plasma Specialists but only re-roll 1s and no Wrath of Mars). Basically, how much does Plasma Specialists add compared to the other options? Also - if you aren't going Ryza for the 'phrons is it ever worth using Heavy Grav-Cannons instead of Plasma Culverins?
MrMoustaffa wrote: So if ryzaphrons and Kastellans were your weak choices what do you think you would take instead, seeing as these are some of our main firepower units? Primarily interested in admech but I assume there are obvious choices outside the codex like a Castellan for example.
What was the issue with the Kastellans? Was it planting their feet made them easy to avoid and predict or was their damage output just kind of minimal?
The Ryzaphrons make sense, anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together is going to be targeting them asap and they just don't have the durability the Breachers have.
If you're not bringing Kastellan and Kataphrons I'm wondering what you would do for pure admech aside from 3 neutron Onagers. I guess a crap ton of ballistaari, maybe arquebus ranger spam, and drills? Perhaps some way to deepstrike vanguard in with plasma too. Dropping all the Kastellans and Kataphrons leaves a ton of points free to dramatically rework the army, that's for sure.
An extra Neutronager and more breachers should cover the AV although I might be tempted to go out of faction
Kastellans vs
stacked -1 eldar very little damage as your hitting on 6's
150 plaguebearer hoard T4 5++5+++ very little damage especially with the -1 to hit
Knights their infantry held up in ruins and couldn't be targeted and the knights took very little damage
custodes bikers bunny hopped ruins out of LOS until they could tie them up
scions alpha strike list all their infantry was dead on T1 then very little damage to the supporting vehicles/knight
Harlequinns They were ok but they weren't needed to table my opponent (this was the opponent who didn't target the ryzaphrones)
Overall a combination of -1 to hit and my opponents being able to play round them due to there static nature.
I dont think Ryzaphrons are that bad, they are one of the better units to get around negatives to hit, as with most of our army. My list they get a +2 to hit so even with Eldar trickery (alaitoc, lighting fast reactions (on units with fly), conceal (on infantry/bikes), and hard to hit for a -3, your Kataphrons are still hitting on 5s rerolling 1s with 6d6 shots, you wont need to over charge and just use plasma specialists so you are still affect str 8 and damage 2. If we go off maths thats still an average of 8 hits vs -3 which is then 4 wounds, they save non and thats 8 damage to a hemlock of which he spirit stones 1 away or 4 damage to a Wave Serpent. We then have + 1 to hit for Kastellans and + 2 to hit for a Skitarii unit of our choice so really we are one of the better armies to deal with armies that toy around with modifiers.
In my experience i have dealt with Eldar shenanigans fairly easy (maybe because i play them too haha!! ) and they can only every stack 1 unit to the -3, usually i see people do 2 units at -2 instead. Shining Spears with all the bells and whistles can be a problem but his putting all his resources into that unit.
Plaguebearers again arent amazing. We have the tools to deal with them at range with our armies abilities to get easy access to +1s and 2s to hit which then counter acts their cloud of flies. With Plasmaphrons again with plasma specials with just a -1 +1 will deal 12.5 hits, 10 wounds, they save 3 and then fail all disgusting resilient saves due to 3 damage a pop. Focus firing a unit at a time will see them evaporate like flies (huehue ) and whilst they can be fairly fast their melee output is quick weak. Yea one unit can once again get buffed by strats but all armies can do that, its something you will have to face in every single army nowadays. Maybe youve never really faced Daemons much in 8th but they certainly arent one of the top tier armies. And like most armies, their characters are the lynchpin of the whole thing, pick out their supporting units and those plaquebearers begin to look like little nurglings.
Custodes are hard for use to deal with if its all Jetbikes, the speed they have along with 4 wounds a pop at a 4++ is quite hard. Your opponent was making full use of the terrain to his advantage and we are one of the more juicier targets for Custodes as they are built to kill elite Factions like ourselves.
Too me just sounds like you had some rough luck, my Plasmaphrons always pull their weight and without Kastellans we would be mediocre if we didnt have their volume of good strength and ap shots. I will definitely say you were getting duped if the Eldar had loads of units on a 6+ to hit for you.... A -1 is only a 16% drop in efficiency, Onagers and Skitarii are still hitting a 4+, Kastellans and Kataphrons are now on a 5+, we have 3 stratagems to boost BS by atleast 1 to then counter act their Craftworld trait. Hemlocks will get a further -1 bit this still isnt a huge deal for us. If it were Tau or Guard then yes thats a huge problem, but we dont suffer the same negatives. Then at least 1 unit can get a -3 with lightning fast reflexes and conceal (which doesnt work on vehicles). Its only 1 unit. and still we have a +2 to hit for any Skitarii unit or if youve gone the Ryza route +2 to hit for your Kataphrons and a +1 to hit for your Kastellans.
Its mobility that kills us as a army and thats why you have people run guard to mitigate that, we can work around these pesky stratagems, we cant work around some one who has greater mobility, numbers and access to fly. We are slowly (no pun intended) getting their with the big boys but we still need another push from GW. But right now we are probably the defacto strongest pure faction when it comes to the shooting phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xlDuke wrote: Arc Rifle and Arc Claw seems to be the better loadout, their WS is too low to leverage the Hydraulic Claws with any reliability and Torsion cannons have such low range. For a Servitor Maniple a unit or two of 6+ is probably best in order to use the Warlord Trait and Stratagem. Larger units let them screen much better as well.
Is there a concensus on how best to use Plasmaphrons? I'm torn between Mars 'phrons, Mars Bots and Cawl (for the full re-rolls, Noospheric Mindlock and Elimination Volley but no Plasma Specialists)/Mixed detachment or separate detachments of Ryza 'phrons and Mars Bots (for Noospheric Mindlock and Plasma Specialists but no Elimination Volley or Forgeworld Trait bonus)/full Ryza detachment (for Noospheric Mindlock, Elimination Volley and Plasma Specialists but only re-roll 1s and no Wrath of Mars). Basically, how much does Plasma Specialists add compared to the other options? Also - if you aren't going Ryza for the 'phrons is it ever worth using Heavy Grav-Cannons instead of Plasma Culverins?
Its all up to what hole you need to fill in my list, after much thought and jiggling about ive taken a sole under strength Rzya Kastelan in an Aux slot to boost my Ryzaphrons to a +2 and thats where the sweet spot is i find. It gets aroudn many -1 to hit abilities and still stops us from over heating, and then with the +1 to wound and damage it disintegrates the unit its aimed at. However you can still use plasma as other Forgeworlds, yeah you loose out on Plasma Specials but get a better dogma and easier access to a Kastelan for buffs, or you can go for a all purpose build with the grav but i still find plasma to be better vs everything other than GEQ. (I did the maths many pages back and thats the only thing Grav with all the buffs beats Plasma at).
I dont think you can go wrong with any choice of kataphron really, if you need defence go Stygies, Lucius and to some extents Graia. If you need better shooting go Mars or Ryza. If you need charge defence go Agripinaa. The only Forgeworld that doesnt really benefit them is Metallica.
Have a go at play testing a couple builds and see which ones shine for you!
Can someone explain to me how you guys are using Breachers ? On paper they look like they want to be sent in CC in huge packs, maybe accompanied by Dragoons and such. Their guns aren't exactly the best but I guess they can scrape wounds off Vehicles and deal with medium stuff fairly decently.
I dont think you can go wrong with any choice of kataphron really, if you need defence go Stygies, Lucius and to some extents Graia. If you need better shooting go Mars or Ryza. If you need charge defence go Agripinaa. The only Forgeworld that doesnt really benefit them is Metallica.
destroyers CAN be good if you take the metallica warlord trait, fallback after getting charged then unleash plasma + flamer in your opponent's face. Its cute but it can work (if your kataphrons survive)
xlDuke wrote: Arc Rifle and Arc Claw seems to be the better loadout, their WS is too low to leverage the Hydraulic Claws with any reliability and Torsion cannons have such low range. For a Servitor Maniple a unit or two of 6+ is probably best in order to use the Warlord Trait and Stratagem. Larger units let them screen much better as well.
Is there a concensus on how best to use Plasmaphrons? I'm torn between Mars 'phrons, Mars Bots and Cawl (for the full re-rolls, Noospheric Mindlock and Elimination Volley but no Plasma Specialists)/Mixed detachment or separate detachments of Ryza 'phrons and Mars Bots (for Noospheric Mindlock and Plasma Specialists but no Elimination Volley or Forgeworld Trait bonus)/full Ryza detachment (for Noospheric Mindlock, Elimination Volley and Plasma Specialists but only re-roll 1s and no Wrath of Mars). Basically, how much does Plasma Specialists add compared to the other options? Also - if you aren't going Ryza for the 'phrons is it ever worth using Heavy Grav-Cannons instead of Plasma Culverins?
Its all up to what hole you need to fill in my list, after much thought and jiggling about ive taken a sole under strength Rzya Kastelan in an Aux slot to boost my Ryzaphrons to a +2 and thats where the sweet spot is i find. It gets aroudn many -1 to hit abilities and still stops us from over heating, and then with the +1 to wound and damage it disintegrates the unit its aimed at. However you can still use plasma as other Forgeworlds, yeah you loose out on Plasma Specials but get a better dogma and easier access to a Kastelan for buffs, or you can go for a all purpose build with the grav but i still find plasma to be better vs everything other than GEQ. (I did the maths many pages back and thats the only thing Grav with all the buffs beats Plasma at).
I dont think you can go wrong with any choice of kataphron really, if you need defence go Stygies, Lucius and to some extents Graia. If you need better shooting go Mars or Ryza. If you need charge defence go Agripinaa. The only Forgeworld that doesnt really benefit them is Metallica.
Have a go at play testing a couple builds and see which ones shine for you!
Thanks for the response. Now you've mentioned it I do remember seeing you work out the plasma/grav numbers and think that I thanked you for it, but if I didn't - cheers! I always enjoy playtesting different things but don't have games that regularly and I alternate between my Mechanicus and Orks, so trying out all my ideas takes quite a bit of time. I've played plenty of Stygies and at the moment I'm enjoying Graia, Ryza and Mars with various different units. I'll test out the 'phrons over my next couple of Ad Mech games and see how they work for me.
I dont believe the lists i saw in both tournaments are extremely refined . I dont usually like to destroy my current obvious benefits to overdue some possibly broken spamm. Sure i get the points the breachers being popular but i have personally said use them with the stratagem even before the ca18. They are a great terminator like cheap obj campers like no other in game point efficiency wise. And ofc our best cc unit for screen.
Issues that i would like to adress here beyond obvious are mainly ad mech list building.
1) Mars provide a Cawl benefit for bs4+ that in order to overcome you need cp. So if you face a durable army or need to go over lot of defence etc maybe ovrbuild on robots and kataphrons then i can see Cawl out of the list. + The benefit Mars dual canticles almost make Cawl +1-1 cheat options . Imagine to be able to have any canticle / choice when you got a 5-9 unit of kataprhons . +1 str etc.
2) Ryza destroyers ok but there is the problem . You need ro buff another detachment with vigilus and then again you got 9 destroyers with only ryza buff. With out guard you can move desteoyers woth deep strike as ryza . Even if you play 5+ invu you will not survive . The plan you fail to adress is to drop destroyers with a deep strike else they are dead or out of range . No brainer competitove player will let them survive . Or wont be as effective i just played vs 7 destroyers and just out range them . And plain thinking either
Build different detachment using then in a mixed ryza with another seperate dominus for ?? D6 shots result unstable .
And tax and not able to deepstrike and and and .
Sure i str9 3w is beyond but how . Guard dagger ? No dominus nothing maybe that ryza robots could be a good thing but it will be again a cp drain not worth more than 2 robots cant be melee robots beed to be close to desteoyers and again somewhat i see a more clear option like .
Icarus onagers
Robots mars with breachers etc etc. Stability in results . Even helverins with only -1 can give more stability.
Love the plasma but i dont see how to use them . I use extensive blightlord termies
But deep strike precience etc. I can buff desteoyers only static.
Might try agrippiina for the gem and get at least both kataphrons the ability to rejoin fight and thus make them axtually extreme point efficience bit again i need 9 plasm desteoyers and thst gors beyond my model count if i want breachers .
So i somewhat gonna build around a more flexible list with breachers robots . And tbh why not use a fluffy brigade Mars with assasins to test all units you like and then build upon that .
I find a grrat Mars brigade can have all units from balistarii onahers robots breachers infilttrators usable till you decide your refoned playstyle and build upon a dual or more battalions
. So far thats working for me and yes i would like to use my dragoon lascannon gunline but seems the amount of str 6 -2 ap damage 2 guns are exteeme for investong in non stygies drahoons . If i find a way to build a stygies i might try it but atm
The fact breachers work perfect with Mars Cawl manipulus Robots make an easy objectove secure option.
Cpmbined with my snipers i somewhat outrange so far any single plan i have faced easily . Problem if for some reason enamy got 4 objectoves in his deploy but you just wont let it happen . A threat range of 42 in my army + two vigilus options nothing can stand against a bs 3-4 robot onager kataprhon shooting Mars. Nothing
Maybe destroyers Mars with grav maybe but again Robots . !!! Icarus we got options for risking more
For me breachers are front line moving 6" forward till they encounter the enemy of are wounded enough they need the agripinaa strat. Across your combat/ theres they will eat through a marine squad
xlDuke wrote: Arc Rifle and Arc Claw seems to be the better loadout, their WS is too low to leverage the Hydraulic Claws with any reliability and Torsion cannons have such low range. For a Servitor Maniple a unit or two of 6+ is probably best in order to use the Warlord Trait and Stratagem. Larger units let them screen much better as well.
Is there a concensus on how best to use Plasmaphrons? I'm torn between Mars 'phrons, Mars Bots and Cawl (for the full re-rolls, Noospheric Mindlock and Elimination Volley but no Plasma Specialists)/Mixed detachment or separate detachments of Ryza 'phrons and Mars Bots (for Noospheric Mindlock and Plasma Specialists but no Elimination Volley or Forgeworld Trait bonus)/full Ryza detachment (for Noospheric Mindlock, Elimination Volley and Plasma Specialists but only re-roll 1s and no Wrath of Mars). Basically, how much does Plasma Specialists add compared to the other options? Also - if you aren't going Ryza for the 'phrons is it ever worth using Heavy Grav-Cannons instead of Plasma Culverins?
In my opinion, Culverin and Phosphor, Ryza with a Ryza Dominus, no Kastelans because Elimination Volley is too much, and Officer of the Fleet with Dagger to hide them and allow them to Outflank.
Ryzaphrons set up in this manner have below average output that is much higher than the average of any other setup, and for only 2 CP per turn.
VladimirHerzog wrote: destroyers CAN be good if you take the metallica warlord trait, fallback after getting charged then unleash plasma + flamer in your opponent's face. Its cute but it can work (if your kataphrons survive)
Destroyers should never be left alone. They should have a melee screen. Guardsmen are best, but Dragoons, Breachers, Electro-Priests, hell, even a Knight work fine.
U02dah4 wrote: For me breachers are front line moving 6" forward till they encounter the enemy of are wounded enough they need the agripinaa strat. Across your combat/ theres they will eat through a marine squad
What Forge World do we run Breachers as anyway? Mars, Stygies, or Agripinaa? I can see the argument for any of these. I personally am leaning toward Stygies, actually. This is because you get the Dominus, the infiltrate, and the -1 to hit, which helps bolster his already durable T5 3+/5++ W3 body. The way I see it, double Canticle and improved tax efficiency on Mars is a bit mediocre. And Agripinaa seems to work better for Grav Destroyers, since it costs 3 CP to recycle and redeploy 6x, but you already have the new formation WLT to help revive one model at a time, and the Eye Relic and Overwatch bonuses are intended to aid in shooting.
To be fair, it's a victory in and of itself if something is shooting at your Breachers that can kill 4-6 of them. One huge argument for well-rounded elites is that few people bring weapons specialized for them. (The only things I am truly worried about are the Tau Heavy Burst Cannons and our own Heavy Phosphor Blasters.)
Why invest so much when you can have a true bullet magnet.
Having snipers Cawl Robots breachers possibly 9* onagers maybe even inflitrattors I can definitely tell you it's a hard call to hit 4-6 breachers every turn cause then you would need to withstand a ton of shooting back.
My plan now evolves around making efficient two battalions .
One utilize 1*4 breacher 1*5 breachers and a vanguard then 2 set of sniper teams +1
Those are my take on troops so far heavily altered with rest of list but so far working.
Then I tried mobile list yes stygies dominus it comes down to bs 3 reroll ones but does not utilise I believe all ad mech since stygies got changed .
Most likely any plan you make work and the game shows ATM most units work in games for most armies so again it comes down to playstyle . I believe the easy way is with Robots Cawl etc.
Taking Agripiina or invest all my plan on plsma I don't like . Nor taking again guard .
Agripiina means you gonna be stationry cause 6" is pathetic movement . And if you are not stationary if you gotta move every single round then you most likely don't benefit from manipulus and thus go again 36 range . 36 range it's bad for your point invest you gonna face scare things in 36 " most likely my Robots will shoot you some 50ish shots from 42" and the worse thing is the wrath of Mars coming along with either Robots or infiltrators .
Maybe a second battalions with various options in a mixed situation but again why ?? You need to do extreme things when you got most likely the best shooting you can get in 40"+ the amount of firepower is extreme ATM from a Mars army if you consider an average of str 6 weapons and more than 100 rerolable shots / turn iits extreme anyway you take it but I guarantee the d6 plasma shots gonna have inconsistent results with out deep strike dagger etc.
One thing that is very interesting to note is that the new formation stratagem is locked to the formation keyword, not Forge World. So you can technically run a Ryza Dominus, Ryza Destros, and Agripinaa Breachers.
Why would you take a manipulous for breachers if your 36" range and moving 6" a turn and deploying at the front of your zone you don't need a range boost
xlDuke wrote: Arc Rifle and Arc Claw seems to be the better loadout, their WS is too low to leverage the Hydraulic Claws with any reliability and Torsion cannons have such low range. For a Servitor Maniple a unit or two of 6+ is probably best in order to use the Warlord Trait and Stratagem. Larger units let them screen much better as well.
Is there a concensus on how best to use Plasmaphrons? I'm torn between Mars 'phrons, Mars Bots and Cawl (for the full re-rolls, Noospheric Mindlock and Elimination Volley but no Plasma Specialists)/Mixed detachment or separate detachments of Ryza 'phrons and Mars Bots (for Noospheric Mindlock and Plasma Specialists but no Elimination Volley or Forgeworld Trait bonus)/full Ryza detachment (for Noospheric Mindlock, Elimination Volley and Plasma Specialists but only re-roll 1s and no Wrath of Mars). Basically, how much does Plasma Specialists add compared to the other options? Also - if you aren't going Ryza for the 'phrons is it ever worth using Heavy Grav-Cannons instead of Plasma Culverins?
Its all up to what hole you need to fill in my list, after much thought and jiggling about ive taken a sole under strength Rzya Kastelan in an Aux slot to boost my Ryzaphrons to a +2 and thats where the sweet spot is i find. It gets aroudn many -1 to hit abilities and still stops us from over heating, and then with the +1 to wound and damage it disintegrates the unit its aimed at. However you can still use plasma as other Forgeworlds, yeah you loose out on Plasma Specials but get a better dogma and easier access to a Kastelan for buffs, or you can go for a all purpose build with the grav but i still find plasma to be better vs everything other than GEQ. (I did the maths many pages back and thats the only thing Grav with all the buffs beats Plasma at).
I dont think you can go wrong with any choice of kataphron really, if you need defence go Stygies, Lucius and to some extents Graia. If you need better shooting go Mars or Ryza. If you need charge defence go Agripinaa. The only Forgeworld that doesnt really benefit them is Metallica.
Have a go at play testing a couple builds and see which ones shine for you!
Thanks for the response. Now you've mentioned it I do remember seeing you work out the plasma/grav numbers and think that I thanked you for it, but if I didn't - cheers! I always enjoy playtesting different things but don't have games that regularly and I alternate between my Mechanicus and Orks, so trying out all my ideas takes quite a bit of time. I've played plenty of Stygies and at the moment I'm enjoying Graia, Ryza and Mars with various different units. I'll test out the 'phrons over my next couple of Ad Mech games and see how they work for me.
Im usually a Stygies man myself as well haha and its cool to see another Admech player who also has Orkz haha! They are both very convert heavy armies! Ive never been a Mars person, i used Cawl way back in the Index but not once we had a Codex, i dont really find our canticles that great and im usually just fishing for Shroudpsalm every time. They have a powerful stratagem but im not fond of the increased aura warlord trait (maybe because i dont use Cawl haha!) and the relic axe is a bit silly with ap 5.... I would much prefer it if there was a Generic Arch Magos that gave reroll hits like a Chapter Master for Marines. I used to use Cawl in 7th when Gathering Storm was out and I loved the relics and force orgs he granted access to.
I have ran Graia a few times as at the start it was either that fw or Stygies, but after a few play tests the -1 to hit was a lot better vs most armies. Kataphrons are very new to us now as no one really used them at all before Vigilus. I did used to run a unit of 3 with my Stygies army and they had reasonable success from game to game but they were so expensive, so people havent really gotten round to discovering combos and strats with them yet. Now coming up to 3 months of Vigilus people are starting to uncover there potential but people still tend to gravitate to the big 3, Mars, Stygies and Graia as they are the most blunt dogmas, they are self sufficient.
Yoda79 wrote: I dont believe the lists i saw in both tournaments are extremely refined . I dont usually like to destroy my current obvious benefits to overdue some possibly broken spamm. Sure i get the points the breachers being popular but i have personally said use them with the stratagem even before the ca18. They are a great terminator like cheap obj campers like no other in game point efficiency wise. And ofc our best cc unit for screen.
Issues that i would like to adress here beyond obvious are mainly ad mech list building.
1) Mars provide a Cawl benefit for bs4+ that in order to overcome you need cp. So if you face a durable army or need to go over lot of defence etc maybe ovrbuild on robots and kataphrons then i can see Cawl out of the list. + The benefit Mars dual canticles almost make Cawl +1-1 cheat options . Imagine to be able to have any canticle / choice when you got a 5-9 unit of kataprhons . +1 str etc.
2) Ryza destroyers ok but there is the problem . You need ro buff another detachment with vigilus and then again you got 9 destroyers with only ryza buff. With out guard you can move desteoyers woth deep strike as ryza . Even if you play 5+ invu you will not survive . The plan you fail to adress is to drop destroyers with a deep strike else they are dead or out of range . No brainer competitove player will let them survive . Or wont be as effective i just played vs 7 destroyers and just out range them . And plain thinking either
Build different detachment using then in a mixed ryza with another seperate dominus for ?? D6 shots result unstable .
And tax and not able to deepstrike and and and .
Sure i str9 3w is beyond but how . Guard dagger ? No dominus nothing maybe that ryza robots could be a good thing but it will be again a cp drain not worth more than 2 robots cant be melee robots beed to be close to desteoyers and again somewhat i see a more clear option like .
Icarus onagers
Robots mars with breachers etc etc. Stability in results . Even helverins with only -1 can give more stability.
Love the plasma but i dont see how to use them . I use extensive blightlord termies
But deep strike precience etc. I can buff desteoyers only static.
Might try agrippiina for the gem and get at least both kataphrons the ability to rejoin fight and thus make them axtually extreme point efficience bit again i need 9 plasm desteoyers and thst gors beyond my model count if i want breachers .
So i somewhat gonna build around a more flexible list with breachers robots . And tbh why not use a fluffy brigade Mars with assasins to test all units you like and then build upon that .
I find a grrat Mars brigade can have all units from balistarii onahers robots breachers infilttrators usable till you decide your refoned playstyle and build upon a dual or more battalions
. So far thats working for me and yes i would like to use my dragoon lascannon gunline but seems the amount of str 6 -2 ap damage 2 guns are exteeme for investong in non stygies drahoons . If i find a way to build a stygies i might try it but atm
The fact breachers work perfect with Mars Cawl manipulus Robots make an easy objectove secure option.
Cpmbined with my snipers i somewhat outrange so far any single plan i have faced easily . Problem if for some reason enamy got 4 objectoves in his deploy but you just wont let it happen . A threat range of 42 in my army + two vigilus options nothing can stand against a bs 3-4 robot onager kataprhon shooting Mars. Nothing
Maybe destroyers Mars with grav maybe but again Robots . !!! Icarus we got options for risking more
Ive had quite the opposite result, with a base range of 36" and a move of 6" ignoring the heavy penalty they have an effective threat range of 42". Even if they are 8" up on deployment thats a whopping 50" threat range. The tiems where they have been out ranged is where someone deploys in the corner or is out of LOS, but i tend to deploy my Kataphrons centrally in my DZ that way i can reach out to whatever corner people deploy their heavy assets in. Now with the 5++, you can wait to do per match, if your against a shooting heavy list use it, if not then dont. In cover, by an objective and popping AaaC they are stitting pretty on a 2+ 4/5++ which is still quite durable for a 3 wound t5 unit that gets repairs and replenishments from the near by Dominus and Servitors. When stacking Noospheric and Elimination, the amount of fire power they kick out is eye watering and quite often they get around about 20 hits at effective str 9 damage 3 which is just about 16.66666 wounds to anything t7 and below (for 51 damage) so i target multiple units with them to maximize the destructive capabilities.
Whilst Kastelans are good they cant do everything themselves (even though sometimes it feels that way haha ) and they need support, as they struggle slightly vs toughness 7 and above. Then with Icarus Arrays im not the best person on those, i have 9 Neutron Onagers and 1 Icarus Array Onager..... and i love the Neutron a heck of a lot more than the Icarus by a country mile. Whenever i use an Icarus it bounces off of Wraith Serpents, Hemlocks, Stormravens, etc where as my Neutron with a +2 to hit puts those units in the trash can with a kobi. I never leave home without atleast 2 Neutronagers there is a saying in my area which is Apples and Onagers when comparing a vehicle to a Onager and the crab walker always wins. If we still had squadrons i would be running 9 again! I love them!
We cant really shoot down any build of Kataphron atm as we are very early stages, people are only just starting to add Breachers and Destroyers into lists and its a surprise to opponents as they havent been used for a long long time that people forget what they can do.
deffrekka wrote: Then with Icarus Arrays im not the best person on those, i have 9 Neutron Onagers and 1 Icarus Array Onager..... and i love the Neutron a heck of a lot more than the Icarus by a country mile. Whenever i use an Icarus it bounces off of Wraith Serpents, Hemlocks, Stormravens, etc where as my Neutron with a +2 to hit puts those units in the trash can with a kobi. I never leave home without atleast 2 Neutronagers there is a saying in my area which is Apples and Onagers when comparing a vehicle to a Onager and the crab walker always wins. If we still had squadrons i would be running 9 again! I love them!
Hmm its weird, for me its the complete opposite, i'll roll 1 shot, then i'll fail to wound and either theyll save with their invuln or i'll do minimum damage. I prefer the icarus array because theres more shots so even if one misses (it sucks when its the daedelus) i still have 9 other shots that can damage and kill stuff. The many shots also doubles as an anti-horde option since everything wounds on a 2+ against most hordes, the damage stacks up really fast. i usually do a 2/1 split between my icarus and neutron since i still do want at least one heavy hitting, durable platform in addition to my kataphrons/ballistari
Yoda79 wrote: I dont believe the lists i saw in both tournaments are extremely refined . I dont usually like to destroy my current obvious benefits to overdue some possibly broken spamm. Sure i get the points the breachers being popular but i have personally said use them with the stratagem even before the ca18. They are a great terminator like cheap obj campers like no other in game point efficiency wise. And ofc our best cc unit for screen.
Issues that i would like to adress here beyond obvious are mainly ad mech list building.
1) Mars provide a Cawl benefit for bs4+ that in order to overcome you need cp. So if you face a durable army or need to go over lot of defence etc maybe ovrbuild on robots and kataphrons then i can see Cawl out of the list. + The benefit Mars dual canticles almost make Cawl +1-1 cheat options . Imagine to be able to have any canticle / choice when you got a 5-9 unit of kataprhons . +1 str etc.
2) Ryza destroyers ok but there is the problem . You need ro buff another detachment with vigilus and then again you got 9 destroyers with only ryza buff. With out guard you can move desteoyers woth deep strike as ryza . Even if you play 5+ invu you will not survive . The plan you fail to adress is to drop destroyers with a deep strike else they are dead or out of range . No brainer competitove player will let them survive . Or wont be as effective i just played vs 7 destroyers and just out range them . And plain thinking either
Build different detachment using then in a mixed ryza with another seperate dominus for ?? D6 shots result unstable .
And tax and not able to deepstrike and and and .
Sure i str9 3w is beyond but how . Guard dagger ? No dominus nothing maybe that ryza robots could be a good thing but it will be again a cp drain not worth more than 2 robots cant be melee robots beed to be close to desteoyers and again somewhat i see a more clear option like .
Icarus onagers
Robots mars with breachers etc etc. Stability in results . Even helverins with only -1 can give more stability.
Love the plasma but i dont see how to use them . I use extensive blightlord termies
But deep strike precience etc. I can buff desteoyers only static.
Might try agrippiina for the gem and get at least both kataphrons the ability to rejoin fight and thus make them axtually extreme point efficience bit again i need 9 plasm desteoyers and thst gors beyond my model count if i want breachers .
So i somewhat gonna build around a more flexible list with breachers robots . And tbh why not use a fluffy brigade Mars with assasins to test all units you like and then build upon that .
I find a grrat Mars brigade can have all units from balistarii onahers robots breachers infilttrators usable till you decide your refoned playstyle and build upon a dual or more battalions
. So far thats working for me and yes i would like to use my dragoon lascannon gunline but seems the amount of str 6 -2 ap damage 2 guns are exteeme for investong in non stygies drahoons . If i find a way to build a stygies i might try it but atm
The fact breachers work perfect with Mars Cawl manipulus Robots make an easy objectove secure option.
Cpmbined with my snipers i somewhat outrange so far any single plan i have faced easily . Problem if for some reason enamy got 4 objectoves in his deploy but you just wont let it happen . A threat range of 42 in my army + two vigilus options nothing can stand against a bs 3-4 robot onager kataprhon shooting Mars. Nothing
Maybe destroyers Mars with grav maybe but again Robots . !!! Icarus we got options for risking more
Ive had quite the opposite result, with a base range of 36" and a move of 6" ignoring the heavy penalty they have an effective threat range of 42". Even if they are 8" up on deployment thats a whopping 50" threat range. The tiems where they have been out ranged is where someone deploys in the corner or is out of LOS, but i tend to deploy my Kataphrons centrally in my DZ that way i can reach out to whatever corner people deploy their heavy assets in. Now with the 5++, you can wait to do per match, if your against a shooting heavy list use it, if not then dont. In cover, by an objective and popping AaaC they are stitting pretty on a 2+ 4/5++ which is still quite durable for a 3 wound t5 unit that gets repairs and replenishments from the near by Dominus and Servitors. When stacking Noospheric and Elimination, the amount of fire power they kick out is eye watering and quite often they get around about 20 hits at effective str 9 damage 3 which is just about 16.66666 wounds to anything t7 and below (for 51 damage) so i target multiple units with them to maximize the destructive capabilities.
Whilst Kastelans are good they cant do everything themselves (even though sometimes it feels that way haha ) and they need support, as they struggle slightly vs toughness 7 and above. Then with Icarus Arrays im not the best person on those, i have 9 Neutron Onagers and 1 Icarus Array Onager..... and i love the Neutron a heck of a lot more than the Icarus by a country mile. Whenever i use an Icarus it bounces off of Wraith Serpents, Hemlocks, Stormravens, etc where as my Neutron with a +2 to hit puts those units in the trash can with a kobi. I never leave home without atleast 2 Neutronagers there is a saying in my area which is Apples and Onagers when comparing a vehicle to a Onager and the crab walker always wins. If we still had squadrons i would be running 9 again! I love them!
We cant really shoot down any build of Kataphron atm as we are very early stages, people are only just starting to add Breachers and Destroyers into lists and its a surprise to opponents as they havent been used for a long long time that people forget what they can do.
yeap for me a well. I dont see why would i use Plasma when i got Robots with wrth of mars. And most likely nowdays can move shoot or even be a pure 42 unmovable range that is extreme. Range is not enough if you cant deep strike Plasmaphrons then you looking at 36+6 move and that is lower than robots. Any form of gatling and there are a lot will move more and shoot 36 effectively out range and anihilate your unit. Breachers will be in front either way still if i decide to move them i got a threat range 36+6 and second round if i dont move them i still got 36+6 this is the whole point . Breachers tank so not so important but imagine playing vs a Knight list if you dont have plasma with deep strike you rely on your arc breachers to kill knights? will you try to move plasma in range of Castellan that shoots 48? and the other 2 gatling knights enemy advances will shoot 36+12 playing second effectvely out shoot 50% of the games your plasma.
i say take breachers and if knight shoots them thats their job but since i cant deep strike plasma otehr than dagger so pure mech plasma i prefer to take o combination of balistarii lascannon or onagers with neutron. Roots and breachers provide a tought fire base to camp my back field and stay there even if picked to get killed. the question lies who will kill enemy hight T units. Robots wont or are less effective and i wont take Breachers Robots icarus cause we heading towards full antihorde.
Personal preference i take icarus 2 of them inside my lists but with breachers and Robots i consider neutronagers and balistarii.
Since i go that way i also consider i want definetly to have my balistarii helverin range 48 + 10 move or 48+6 stationary that beats most stationary enemies units or onagers 48+++ moveing and stationary to win almost all other 48 range units. Why would i not take more range when my army depends on shooting and celaring idfiled with shooting. 42 range robot str 6 -2 -cover wrath of mars is beyond reason .SO much that even relic missions start to come in favor even vs BA. what we didnt have was effective screen. to stand and fight . well
two batalions
im testing 1*5 breachers and 1*4 vs 1*9 breachers atm.
then i got balistarii lascannons
onager neutron
4 Robots
4 snipers omnispex
vanguard
Cawl dominus manipulus
6 infiltrators Mars as second wrath option
and always 85 points for assasin
Thre has not been anything surviving atm against it. and i get different highligth each game. Want lascannons and neutrons. Robots breachers even sniper took one game for me especially some games ith changlings commanders adn such. if i see char buffer i can take sniper assasins to create a good sniper combo. cullexus bla bla bla . Even 6 infiltrators have won games as they can rop 3rd round for line breaker enemy kills wrath of mars etc etc.
I hear many including myself saying canticles suck. Sure but when you go Mars with the exact setup i just said it provides extreme buffing why. You can practically have 2 buffs anything you like each round and make your army play better in aspects you need.
1) +1 str for rbeacher reroll 1s for breachers reroll morale for big units and i use it since i get 7-9 unit size troops if i m away from my fire base.
2) reroll 1 on shooting when you send onagers trops far away
3) cover every round where other ppay 2 cp to get it first round.
4) low cp usage out of wrath of mars or breacher defence. usually wont need both +1-2 bs buff and wrath i tend to use one or the other most games depending on enemy and 13 cp min. 10 even to start is more than enough to to the job.
why would i need to get plasma when i got breachers shootign to waste with d6 damage vs vehicles where i really need it. that said i know and saw a full kataphron list worked already in tournaments and i dont disagree using them .
i just say i got 9 models atm kataphrons and i m testing with those available atm. and i dont see the usage . PErsonaly id use them every single game if i could have them Ryza and deep strike 100000%. No deep strike i wont cause they become #1 easy prio target. and i dont want that. i want my enemy to have to decide Robots Breachers Onagers to waste shooting. thats me. And since i want my shooting antitank to actually outrange or equal to most heavy hitters like Castellan i dont take Plasma even if i love it and even if it works nice etc. Vs a good opponent example you play vs me you need to bring your plasma in range of my 42 range robots to shoot if you can something important and most likely you wont have serious target. for any reason ANY and most likely 60%+ i will outrange you or shoot you first its done deal. robots are effecively -3 shooter s destroyers its done and thats why i changes from icarus antihorde to Robots. -2 - cover str 6 sure but icarus is -1-2 ap average. effective but not as i see current meta. i got an army atm with aveage -2+ ap.
why take squishy destroyers with all that shooting for a d6 shot? the game results of a 9*breacher unit will be 9d6 cant get from 9 till 54 plasma shots. 54 win you a game 9 loose one. its a gamble i will not take play a dice game vs TAU? its 2 risky. vs Knights? no point. Now plasma with 42 range can be something to look at .First round move 6 and 36 42 threat second round 36+6 stationar can be good especially if you manage to send 3 wound shots of. Wont target castellan wont kill bane blade or helverins etc and there again i dont want to dedicate points.IF it take 3-4 dont worth the fuzz since Ad mech really shines with big units. 5 balistarii with lascannons have been for me as Stygies lethal. +2 to hit eve moving is no issue.
ITs a heavy antitank list and i believe we are the best Army to be one bs3+ rerolling all not only miss. So antihorde So -1 to hit care less So flier care so most likely with 6+ range extremely effective army. SO i build on endurance as much as possible thats what we miss nothing else.
108 points 6 infiltratos with wrat of mars 10 models even are a glass cannon not 500 points destroyes with dominus. if i go first and kill 400-600 points of my enemy i got a clear advantage.
I have a tournament in a couple of days, bringing Admech and knights.
Can anyone confirm if knight of the cog works on a super heavy detachment and you just cherry pick which unit(knight) you want it on
Many thanks
no, sorry - the stratagem works on a super heavy, but you will only get the Canticles ability if ALL of your units in that particular detachment have the canticles ability - i.e. only use this stratagem is you are taking a super-heavy auxillary detachment.
Does anyone have any tips? I don't believe I have fought Space Wolves much in 8th. Is there anything that is a must kill? or that I should look out for?
I have a tournament in a couple of days, bringing Admech and knights.
Can anyone confirm if knight of the cog works on a super heavy detachment and you just cherry pick which unit(knight) you want it on
Many thanks
no, sorry - the stratagem works on a super heavy, but you will only get the Canticles ability if ALL of your units in that particular detachment have the canticles ability - i.e. only use this stratagem is you are taking a super-heavy auxillary detachment.
Yeah, this is a case where RAW is really stupid, but RAI is clearly supposed to operate a certain way. Contact the TO if possible.
The Forgemaster wrote: So it looks like I will be facing a bunch of Wolves in power armour this weekend (doubles match, 1500 each)
Does anyone have any tips? I don't believe I have fought Space Wolves much in 8th.
Is there anything that is a must kill? or that I should look out for?
What sort of Wolves list do you expect to face? Herohammer style or the usual elites army? The former is actually really tough. My friend was best SW last year, and his list was practically every character in the codex plus a Falchion and some normal MEQs for CP. Anyhow, just got to play patiently and hold objectives.
Which Kataphrons will you be bringing? And going to tell you straight out that Dragoons are useless against SW. They attack first on the charge, and they hit really hard against the Dragoon's statline.
I have a tournament in a couple of days, bringing Admech and knights.
Can anyone confirm if knight of the cog works on a super heavy detachment and you just cherry pick which unit(knight) you want it on
Many thanks
no, sorry - the stratagem works on a super heavy, but you will only get the Canticles ability if ALL of your units in that particular detachment have the canticles ability - i.e. only use this stratagem is you are taking a super-heavy auxillary detachment.
Yeah, this is a case where RAW is really stupid, but RAI is clearly supposed to operate a certain way. Contact the TO if possible.
The Forgemaster wrote: So it looks like I will be facing a bunch of Wolves in power armour this weekend (doubles match, 1500 each)
Does anyone have any tips? I don't believe I have fought Space Wolves much in 8th. Is there anything that is a must kill? or that I should look out for?
What sort of Wolves list do you expect to face? Herohammer style or the usual elites army? The former is actually really tough. My friend was best SW last year, and his list was practically every character in the codex plus a Falchion and some normal MEQs for CP. Anyhow, just got to play patiently and hold objectives.
Which Kataphrons will you be bringing? And going to tell you straight out that Dragoons are useless against SW. They attack first on the charge, and they hit really hard against the Dragoon's statline.
Not sure yet, the plan is to be mostly surprised by the opponents armys. but I suspect more likely the usual sort of elites/ troops list, probably wolfen, long fangs, primaris thunderwolves, psykers etc.
sorry, thought I mentioned it - Plasma Destroyers.
the dragoons are there more as a speed bump to hold up the charge a bit, probably will operate them individually and go for things like line breaker, prevent backfield vehicles from shooting for a turn etc.
hopefully the Gallant & Valiant will be a nice big distraction for the wolves - and ruch forward to stomp them in shrot range fire and stomps.
kastelen wrote: Why are you taking a Valient, from memory they're really, really bad.
not that bad, just shorter range guns - fine if you and the enemny are both going towards each other. but doesn't require so many CP to function. (Also the Knight player wanted a full knight lance and these are all the knights we had...)
They are also running Hawkshroud which for a strat one knight can supporting overwatch like Tau (S7 3D6 flamer...) just in case they charge the gallant
it is a bit more of a fun game rather than super-competative.
Can anyone who’s run Graia help me out with the following Refusal to yield scenarios. I think I’m playing it wrong, how many refusal to yield rolls would I need to make for the below if my model is a 1W model like a Ranger
1. I fail my armour save versus a damage 3 weapon.
2. I fail all my armour saves against a volley of 10 bolter shots
Ideasweasel wrote: Can anyone who’s run Graia help me out with the following Refusal to yield scenarios. I think I’m playing it wrong, how many refusal to yield rolls would I need to make for the below if my model is a 1W model like a Ranger
1. I fail my armour save versus a damage 3 weapon.
2. I fail all my armour saves against a volley of 10 bolter shots
Ideasweasel wrote: Can anyone who’s run Graia help me out with the following Refusal to yield scenarios. I think I’m playing it wrong, how many refusal to yield rolls would I need to make for the below if my model is a 1W model like a Ranger
1. I fail my armour save versus a damage 3 weapon.
2. I fail all my armour saves against a volley of 10 bolter shots
If the unit only has one model in it, and of those 10 shots you fail your save on the first one and that kills it, the remaining 9 shots are gone because there are no other models to allocate them to. The shots all happen at the same time, as do the deaths. So after all shots have been resolved saved/failed and models have been killed, then you roll for your refusal to yield. That applies to mortal wounds as well. It's not a FnP style roll that applies to damage of an attack, it's why you still get your refusal to yield after your fanatical devotion on priests.
What do you guys think about Omnispex and Datatether, when is it useful/ a must to bring them.
I typically either field just 2x 5 rangers with snipers, 1 ranger squad stocked as screen, and vanguards go with 5-6 models with maybe 1 plasma in each squad.
Also: do you think taking freeblade for a single knight is worth?
0XFallen wrote: What do you guys think about Omnispex and Datatether, when is it useful/ a must to bring them.
I typically either field just 2x 5 rangers with snipers, 1 ranger squad stocked as screen, and vanguards go with 5-6 models with maybe 1 plasma in each squad.
Also: do you think taking freeblade for a single knight is worth?
I am generally not running Omnispex & datatether at the moment, but they have some merits in certain situations:
Omnispex on some sniper rangers to maximise their arquebus damage is ok
Or datatethers on a 10man unit to keep moral from affecting them as much.
Regarding the free blade - depends on the knight. E.g a single gallant in a super heavy aux detachment will not gain any benefits for house traits, and a lot of the freeblade buffs mostly affect melee, so you might decide to roll for them rather than picking to gain more buffs.
0XFallen wrote: What do you guys think about Omnispex and Datatether, when is it useful/ a must to bring them.
I typically either field just 2x 5 rangers with snipers, 1 ranger squad stocked as screen, and vanguards go with 5-6 models with maybe 1 plasma in each squad.
Also: do you think taking freeblade for a single knight is worth?
With Metalica I run a lot of data tethers on my plasma vanguard. Let's me fall back and still hit on 2's with a unit in an emergency and helps keeps my squads around. I run a lot of Skittles though and in fairly large units so I'm a niche case. Also almost half my group has some sort of -1 to hit ability so I tend to use protector doctrina every single turn to get my plasma more reliable. The main draw is if you want to use something other than MSU skitarii and want larger squads, our leadership is garbage and we have very few ways to buff it. Rather than waste a canticle to keep my guys in line I just pay the extra 5pts per squad and call it a day. They always seem to pay for themselves since they protect my plasma from running but if you're running naked squads more dudes would be the smarter option for the points.
I've tried omnispex every now and then but rarely felt like I needed it. Id maybe use it on arquebus rangers but even there a lot of my targets for them aren't in cover but charging up the table so it's unnecessary. If you play against people who use a lot of cover abilities like enemy admech I could see them being worthwhile though. My meta just doesn't call for them.
kastelen wrote: Why are you taking a Valient, from memory they're really, really bad.
They aren't bad in an absolute sense. It's just that you can invest roughly the same number of points and get a Castellan. So they're basically relatively bad in the same vein of a Shadowsword.
0XFallen wrote: What do you guys think about Omnispex and Datatether, when is it useful/ a must to bring them.
I typically either field just 2x 5 rangers with snipers, 1 ranger squad stocked as screen, and vanguards go with 5-6 models with maybe 1 plasma in each squad.
Also: do you think taking freeblade for a single knight is worth?
At 1500+ points, Skitarii want to run in MSUs with minimal investment. Only situation where I'd take Omnispex is with Arquebus teams. If you want to improve morale, stand next to a Ballistarii or a Crawler.
Take Raven or Krast instead of Freeblade almost always. For Raven, you are going for the stratagem. For Krast, the tradition is redundant, but the WLT and relic are both amazing; stratagem is also good in a scrap. Krast works best on a Styrix or Magaera (but the Magaera is not that good, to be honest).
I've wrote a 2000 pts list to try some Armigers for the first time, I'll borrow them from friends. After having faced 2 Helverins that promptly slew my 6 Kataphrons in one go I'm seriously thinking about adding some D3 to my army to counter heavy infantry and I've always loved the look of these guys. I don't want to play bigger Knights than those, too, so I'll keep it at the Armigers if I ever buy some.
The idea is to use my 15 CPs to Infiltrate whatever I need, mostly the Fistelans and their Datasmith, the Dragoons and perhaps some Vanguards in a nice spot. Meanwhile I have a firebase in the back with the Helverins, the Dakkabots and Arquebuses. The Warglaive will join the fray first turn with Full Tilt if needed.
It's a variation of my Distraction Fistelans list I use with Lucius, here there's even more CC vehicles in the face of my opponent T1 provided I have first turn. Seeing as I mainly play CA2018 missions it's much more likely as there's no +1 to roll shenanigans.
I chose Taranis for the 6+++ but Vulker catches my eye too for the Stratagem that procs 2 hits on 6s. The Trait is more random though, I can't control their closest target each turn.
Aaranis wrote: I've wrote a 2000 pts list to try some Armigers for the first time, I'll borrow them from friends. After having faced 2 Helverins that promptly slew my 6 Kataphrons in one go I'm seriously thinking about adding some D3 to my army to counter heavy infantry and I've always loved the look of these guys. I don't want to play bigger Knights than those, too, so I'll keep it at the Armigers if I ever buy some.
The idea is to use my 15 CPs to Infiltrate whatever I need, mostly the Fistelans and their Datasmith, the Dragoons and perhaps some Vanguards in a nice spot. Meanwhile I have a firebase in the back with the Helverins, the Dakkabots and Arquebuses. The Warglaive will join the fray first turn with Full Tilt if needed.
It's a variation of my Distraction Fistelans list I use with Lucius, here there's even more CC vehicles in the face of my opponent T1 provided I have first turn. Seeing as I mainly play CA2018 missions it's much more likely as there's no +1 to roll shenanigans.
I chose Taranis for the 6+++ but Vulker catches my eye too for the Stratagem that procs 2 hits on 6s. The Trait is more random though, I can't control their closest target each turn.
i wouldnt take the pimp-cane on your dominus if youre planning on deepstriking fistellans, its gonna be a wasted relic slot, i'd give the datasmith the solar flare so you can teleport him to your fistellans after the deepstrike to give them +3 to their charge.
i wouldnt run big squads of rangers, i'd do all minimum size squad, so your 10 + 10 + 5 would become a 5+ 5+ 5+ 5+5, which covers a lot more ground and caps a lot more objectives, especially since you wouldntb e able to move the squads with snipers in them. 3 dragoons feels underwhelming, they really shine the more you have. maybe try them as ballistarii autocannons to deal with hordes from a distance (to clear a path for your kastellans).
Ideasweasel wrote: Can anyone who’s run Graia help me out with the following Refusal to yield scenarios. I think I’m playing it wrong, how many refusal to yield rolls would I need to make for the below if my model is a 1W model like a Ranger
1. I fail my armour save versus a damage 3 weapon.
2. I fail all my armour saves against a volley of 10 bolter shots
If the unit only has one model in it, and of those 10 shots you fail your save on the first one and that kills it, the remaining 9 shots are gone because there are no other models to allocate them to. The shots all happen at the same time, as do the deaths. So after all shots have been resolved saved/failed and models have been killed, then you roll for your refusal to yield. That applies to mortal wounds as well. It's not a FnP style roll that applies to damage of an attack, it's why you still get your refusal to yield after your fanatical devotion on priests.
Shots do not happen at the same time. You are meant to roll them one by one, and only roll them multiple at the same time if they all share a profile and there’d be no difference rolling them together or separately. This is in the main rulebook.
So with one guy against 10 shots, you (as tedious as it sounds) roll one save, if it passes then roll another save, and when you fail it is slain and the Refusal to Yield kicks in immediately upon the model being slain - if it survives the death due to the RtY roll, you resume rolling saves one by one until it either passes all the shots and/or deaths, or fails a RtY roll.
The order of operations is:
1) Shots
2) Hits
3) Wounds
3.5) Tally mortal wounds (most occur here)
4) Saves
5) Damage
6) Assign all of the damage to one model
6.5) FNP 7) Determine if model dies
7.5) RTY
For FNP, you roll a die for each point of damage. For RTY, you allocate all of the damage to a model; if it dies, you roll a die; if you succeed, your unit has 1 wound remaining.
Honestly, next edition they need to rename Wounds to HP. It's too semantically confusing to share the same word with the "wound roll."
Rules question for those of you that mix detachments to take Graia rangers for deny - if you also take stygies dragoons in the same detachment do they revert to just the native -1 to hit?
Rules question for those of you that mix detachments to take Graia rangers for deny - if you also take stygies dragoons in the same detachment do they revert to just the native -1 to hit?
Thanks
Yep, unfortunatly mixed forgeworlds means no forgeworld bonuses including stygies -1 to hit...
Like I said, the most value in AdMech comes from the stratagems, so the Forge Worlds aren't important. The only one that seriously would like to be pure is Stygies. But even that FW can be brought in mixed detachments for the infiltration.
Upcoming 1k Tournament once again.
Last time I used 3 dakkabots, Cawl and lots of screening, which worked fine but was unlucky as one explosion killed almost all of my troops.
This time I have two lists that I consider, I want them to be fun but dont want to auto lose, so if its at least 80% competetiv im fine.
Restrictions: 2 detachments 1000points, not ITC or anything just plain missions.
First Knight list:
Spoiler:
Battalion Stygies
2x Enginseer ( necromechanic)
2x5 Rangers, 2 snipers each
1x6 Vanguards
1x7 Vanguards
10 Hoplites with EDT for the Alpha (Like the feeling of the titan guard)
1 Onager with Icarus
SHA Detachment
House Krast Crusader with Gatling, Autocannon, Ironstorm Missile Pod
Warlord trait Krast: First Knight, Relic: Armor of the Sainted ion
I will play aggressiv with the knight if possible, so shooting and then charging some stuff to finish them off.
______________________________________________________________________________________
2nd Skitarii List
Spoiler:
Mixed Graia Mars Battalion
2 Enginseers, Omniscient mask
3x5 Vanguards
10 Tazer Infiltrators
Stygies Battalion
Dominus Warlord
Enginseer with arkhans pimp cane
3x5 rangers ( 1 arc rifle as I had the points left)
8 Ruststalkers with Claws
Balistarii with Autocannon
2 Dunecrawler with Icarus
I really like both lists as they look fun to play, any glaring weaknesses or things I should change not to auto lose?
So my Styrix had it’s first run out today, i won one lost one playing some of the new CA2018 missions as a test run for throne of skulls doubles. I’m not attending but my friends wanted some practice runs to try stuff out, so i played two teams of 900 admech, as if i were two people, against a 900 DE and 900 Harlequins, lost on points to that team, they just have too much mobility for missions that focus on objectives.
Second game was against 900 thousand sons and 900 Khorne, where the Styrix basically won the game on it’s own. It was sat on an objective in the middle of the table on turn two, having been reduced from 24 to 6 wounds in the previous psychic and shooting phases (they went first, this was their turn 2) they wanted it off that objective as it would be worth 2VP at the end of my turn so they proceded to charge it with a chaos lord, 2 x daemon princes and Ahriman.
All of them died. In overwatch. All 27 wounds or so of auto-hitting rad-cleansed death. 25 extra points well spent lol
I really like both lists as they look fun to play, any glaring weaknesses or things I should change not to auto lose?
The ruststalkers...
Personally would go for the first list with the knight, but maybe exchange the hoplites for infiltrators - you then have the option for backfield deep strike and Hoplites do not gain stygies bonuses anyway.
I really like both lists as they look fun to play, any glaring weaknesses or things I should change not to auto lose?
The ruststalkers...
Personally would go for the first list with the knight, but maybe exchange the hoplites for infiltrators - you then have the option for backfield deep strike and Hoplites do not gain stygies bonuses anyway.
Octovol wrote: So my Styrix had it’s first run out today, i won one lost one playing some of the new CA2018 missions as a test run for throne of skulls doubles. I’m not attending but my friends wanted some practice runs to try stuff out, so i played two teams of 900 admech, as if i were two people, against a 900 DE and 900 Harlequins, lost on points to that team, they just have too much mobility for missions that focus on objectives.
Second game was against 900 thousand sons and 900 Khorne, where the Styrix basically won the game on it’s own. It was sat on an objective in the middle of the table on turn two, having been reduced from 24 to 6 wounds in the previous psychic and shooting phases (they went first, this was their turn 2) they wanted it off that objective as it would be worth 2VP at the end of my turn so they proceded to charge it with a chaos lord, 2 x daemon princes and Ahriman.
All of them died. In overwatch. All 27 wounds or so of auto-hitting rad-cleansed death. 25 extra points well spent lol
Styrix with the Rad-cleanser is an anti-elite murder machine. That being said, I have crunched the numbers, and while Krast Feet are best for both infantry and Titans, the Reaper is ideal for T6-7 enemies due to the better to hit with reroll.
Hey folks,
haven´t had much time playing lately and wanna catch up with AdMech´s place in the meta.
So with more than 2 month testing time how are our specialist detachments fairing? I am thinking pretty heavily about including a Servitor maniple for a unit of Ryzaphrons for my soup.
How do they do? I´ve read about the trick with infiltrating them with the Guard dagger. Is this necessary or can they be started on the table, since I´m not keen on losing a round of shooting with them.
I was thinking about infiltrating a large dragoon squad first turn to attract the enemies firepower.
lash92 wrote: Hey folks, haven´t had much time playing lately and wanna catch up with AdMech´s place in the meta.
So with more than 2 month testing time how are our specialist detachments fairing? I am thinking pretty heavily about including a Servitor maniple for a unit of Ryzaphrons for my soup. How do they do? I´ve read about the trick with infiltrating them with the Guard dagger. Is this necessary or can they be started on the table, since I´m not keen on losing a round of shooting with them. I was thinking about infiltrating a large dragoon squad first turn to attract the enemies firepower.
Servitor Maniple - it depends if you can hide them out of LoS just incase your opponent can sieze on you/ goes first then you probably do not need the dagger. the general consensus is max 6 Ryzaphrons otherwise they look like a really large threat. if they are agrippina instead they can be more survivable with the Agrip. strat to bring them back (which is again max 6). once people start noticing the ryzaphrons it will probably be the first target of many large tanks/long range firepower which is why you need to keep them safe if you do not go first. they are infantry so can walk through ruins walls turn 1 though. In addition it may be worth it to take a Tech-Priest Manipulus near them (from a kill team box - he also has 40k rules but is not in the codex) to bolster their weapons for that additional 6" range on the plasma (so 42") and 11" flamers (for overwatch)...
I am personally not such a fan of the Kastellan Robot specialist detachment, but I can see some upsides, if you end up taking some robots but no Kataphrons then it may be worth it to use this one. you could take Lucius combat Kastellans and a datasmith with the teleporting relic, drop the robots in 9" away, teleport the datasmith nearby, and pop the +3 to advance and charge rolls for a 6" charge with kastellans and change protocols in combat with the stratagem to fight twice. alternatively if you tend not to switch to the shooty protocol with phosphor GRAIA bots (keeping them in Ageis) and someone charges you near your warlord you sould pop the change heavy to assault weapons and shoot them in combat which might make for a surprise to the enemny.
I'm surprised noone seems to be using the vigilus robots with graia. They can shoot in melee with the stratagem so if you break their legs they're still an incredible threat.
laam999 wrote: I'm surprised noone seems to be using the vigilus robots with graia. They can shoot in melee with the stratagem so if you break their legs they're still an incredible threat.
Played it and its really bad for several reasons, its only really good against alpha charges.
1. You cant use the stratagem to instantly switch and deal damage
2. You dont use cawl, neither stygies which is way better for them in team of damage and survivability.
3. It costs way too much CP
lash92 wrote: Hey folks,
haven´t had much time playing lately and wanna catch up with AdMech´s place in the meta.
So with more than 2 month testing time how are our specialist detachments fairing? I am thinking pretty heavily about including a Servitor maniple for a unit of Ryzaphrons for my soup.
How do they do? I´ve read about the trick with infiltrating them with the Guard dagger. Is this necessary or can they be started on the table, since I´m not keen on losing a round of shooting with them.
I was thinking about infiltrating a large dragoon squad first turn to attract the enemies firepower.
Servitor Maniple is a must. Ryza Plasma Destroyers hidden with Officer of the Fleet carrying the Dagger of Tu'Sakh is an incredibly powerful beta strike.
Meanwhile, some people have had success with Mars, Agripinaa, or Stygies Breachers. They are essentially bigger Terminators that can shoot and fight decently well; they have ObSec and can get 4++ with the formation buff and Acquisition stratagem. I personally cannot attest to their effectiveness though. I own no Breachers and play toolbox-style, with every unit having a specific purpose.
Rex2490 wrote: Doesn't the dagger require the same <Regiment> to use on infantry? How would you use it on something thats admech?
because 40k doesnt have ultra-specific rules (obvious RAW/rules as intended tension) you can take an Officer of the fleet (which doesnt have a regiment keyword) and give him the dagger, which means that he can use it on kataphrons since kataphrons AND officer have no regiment keyword, since the dagger specifies "if they have one" its a legal play.
Nah, you can't not name your faction. Every codex has this same wording under its <FACTION> rules section at the beginning of the rules page
"When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which regiment that
unit is from. You then simply replace the <REGIMENT> keyword in every instance on
that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen regiment."
Emphasis on the MUST wording. The daggers description on "The infantry unit must have the same<REGIMENT> keyword as the bearer if the bearer has one." is referencing some characters that do not get a <REGIMENT> like the psykers and ogryn bodyguards as they get the character tag, which were able to get the relic at the time the codex was made (Now Erratad to Officers only).
Even If you played RAW, most TOs with knowledge of the game, wouldn't allow this. The Dagger still looks for a <REGIMENT> for infantry, even though the bearer doesn't have one.
Rex2490 wrote: Nah, you can't not name your faction. Every codex has this same wording under its <FACTION> rules section at the beginning of the rules page
"When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which regiment that
unit is from. You then simply replace the <REGIMENT> keyword in every instance on
that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen regiment."
Emphasis on the MUST wording. The daggers description on "The infantry unit must have the same<REGIMENT> keyword as the bearer if the bearer has one." is referencing some characters that do not get a <REGIMENT> like the psykers and ogryn bodyguards as they get the character tag, which were able to get the relic at the time the codex was made (Now Erratad to Officers only).
Even If you played RAW, most TOs with knowledge of the game, wouldn't allow this.
No, it specifies that it needs the same <regiment> keyword, but theres no such thing on the officier of the fleet datasheet. so he doesnt have a <regiment> keyword to replace. You basically compare datasheets when you check for the dagger. since theyre no mention of a regiment on the officer fo the fleet datasheet, the "if the bearer has one" part of the dagger says that you can use it with any infantry in your army. otherwise that wording would be unnecessary.
Seen most updated ad mech lists doing extremley good on tournaments all over.
My feedback . The new kataphron spam lists play v v well.
I use 18+ kataprhons in various combinations this week and ibhave to say they perfom super good.
From league games to extensive etc rule sets frok friendly to 3 rounds/ day i have to say i got results .
I play ad mech and assasins. Kataprhons and snipers Mars .
Hope you all enjoy yours as well.
As i said earlier there is still an issue when you remove the mortars / guard from your list . The los shooting. And it needs to be adressed .
Cause honestly nothing can stand against ad mech kataprhon list but you can loose from los
RAW absolutely lets you Dagger teleport Ryzaphrons, that much isn’t up for debate. Just read it. As for RAI... it’s been left unchanged for like two years, it’s past the stage of slip-up. Fine to play it RAW until they do ever eventually fix it.
I really don't see the hemming and hawing over the Dagger. It's a useful tool and a good example of AdMech+Guard synergy.
RAW, it's clearly legal. The Dagger is explicitly limited by the <REGIMENT> keyword, which the Officer of the Fleet does not have; it also requires an Officer keyword per the FAQ, which the Officer of the Fleet does have. This has survived multiple FAQs.
RAI, it's clearly legal. Imperium has many stacking bonuses that go outside of their codexes. See Vexilla Defensor or the Implacable Determination WLT for other examples.
As for TOs, I have never had any problems with this, both in casual and competitive games. Mostly because it's hard to argue with the RAW. Officer of the Fleet was explicitly added to the codex with these characteristics.
Finally, in terms of rules lawyering, this is very mild. In 7E, you could Scout move buildings and then use the Escape Hatch to launch units into your enemy deployment or hitch rides on Flesh Tearer Drop Pods.
Anyone else think Imperial Bunkers could be a decent option for Plasmaphrons? Obviously not as good as the Dagger but perhaps a serviceable replacement for those running pure Ad Mech? It's got the bonus of being useable turn 1 and adds to target saturation somewhat. They've got good stats for a fair price point in my opinion.
I would much rather than Kataphrons could be transported by a Termite Assault Drill, but what can you do.
Kataphrons are pretty meh without strategems, auras and canticals, none of which they can get inside of a bunker. You can't even really overheat, for fear of killing them without reroll 1s.
I guess its not bad for keeping them alive turn 1, but I only really see this as an issue if you are up against indirect fire. As infantry they can move through walls, so there is no reason to not hide them out of LOS.
I mean mostly to jump out of, rather than fire out of. Though of course you've always got the option to fire out of it if it seems wise. It's mostly just an added layer of protection for them if you don't go first, for not very many points.
I understand that it's not entirely clear what exactly you are able to use from a units datasheet while they're embarked. Is the consensus that Abilities on a units datasheet can't be used at all while embarked? I was hoping that there was perhaps an argument that Canticles could be benefitted from. What about Forgeworld traits? For example in the Orks tactica thread people seem to be expecting Tankbustas to be re-rolling against vehicles, for Bad Moons to be re-rolling 1's and Deffskulls to be re-rolling a to-hit, to-wound and damage roll.
Ideasweasel wrote: Ryzan Kataphron Destroyers - I’m thinking of pulling the trigger on these for my next purchase.
Just to confirm. The vigilus formation is essential for Noospheric Mind Lock? Dagger of tsu +Ryza plasma stratagem.
Anything other tricks for these bad boys worth I’m missing?
Have you folks been bringing servitors to try and help bring them back or just sticking to damage?
if by 'protector' you mean the doctrina imperative then i want to point out it specifically targets skitarii models, which kataphrons are not.
but yes, ryzaphrons + servitor maniple == Noospheric mind lock + plasma specialist to see everythign melt, you can add a pair of kastellan for the elimination volley if you really want to burn through your CP. End result with kastellan is Kataphron hitting on 2's, wounding T7 on 2 and T8 on 3, AP -3, 3 dmg.
Ideasweasel wrote: Ryzan Kataphron Destroyers - I’m thinking of pulling the trigger on these for my next purchase.
Just to confirm. The vigilus formation is essential for Noospheric Mind Lock? Dagger of tsu +Ryza plasma stratagem.
Anything other tricks for these bad boys worth I’m missing?
Have you folks been bringing servitors to try and help bring them back or just sticking to damage?
Yup the vigilus detachment is needed for the +1 to hit (you could go elimination volley instead but that requires 2CP & Kastellans as well).
There is the option to take the Tech-Priest Manipulus from the Kill Team boxed set - he will boos the ranges on the kataphrons if you think it is needed - +6" for the plasma and the flamers +3" - allowing you to neqarly always fire overwatch with your flamers and hit units even further away with the plasma.
I occasionally bring servitors, it depends if I have points available or not once everything else is added into my list. I have found you are only going to bring back one maybe two Kataphrons with them - more than that lost means the squad is nearly gone and you can only bring one back per turn anyway. maybe if they were agrippina instead, 6x servitors, heal & bring back with dominus & warlord trait, then if they get low (1-2 models) bring them all back with the agrippina strat instead.
Edit: if you are playing on a sector mechanicus board with some plasma lines, for an additional 1CP (strat from CA 2018) an additional +1 strength and damage - 4 damage per shot...
Rex2490 wrote: You're probably better off using the termite drill if its just for turn 1 protection, as it's mobile and has weapons on it. Will be more useful.
Termites can't transport any Kataphron models sadly, or it would be my go-to.
Ideasweasel wrote: Thanks for the advice folks. You guys sticking flamers on your plasmaphrons?
I did, mainly for the overwatch bonuses - with all of the plasma damage you do not really need the phosphor blasters. as mentioned above the Manipulus gives this a bit of a boost.
Ideasweasel wrote: Thanks for the advice folks. You guys sticking flamers on your plasmaphrons?
I did, mainly for the overwatch bonuses - with all of the plasma damage you do not really need the phosphor blasters. as mentioned above the Manipulus gives this a bit of a boost.
if you run flamers you NEED the manipulus, otherwise you cant overwatch out of deepstrike
Suzuteo wrote: I really don't see the hemming and hawing over the Dagger. It's a useful tool and a good example of AdMech+Guard synergy.
RAW, it's clearly legal. The Dagger is explicitly limited by the <REGIMENT> keyword, which the Officer of the Fleet does not have; it also requires an Officer keyword per the FAQ, which the Officer of the Fleet does have. This has survived multiple FAQs.
RAI, it's clearly legal. Imperium has many stacking bonuses that go outside of their codexes. See Vexilla Defensor or the Implacable Determination WLT for other examples.
As for TOs, I have never had any problems with this, both in casual and competitive games. Mostly because it's hard to argue with the RAW. Officer of the Fleet was explicitly added to the codex with these characteristics.
Finally, in terms of rules lawyering, this is very mild. In 7E, you could Scout move buildings and then use the Escape Hatch to launch units into your enemy deployment or hitch rides on Flesh Tearer Drop Pods.
I really don't think it's RAI. They wouldn't go through the trouble of specifying regiment so much if they weren't hell-bent on it being regiment specific. Then you throw in you're not even using it to outflank IG, your outflanking admech. RAW maybe you have an argument but I'd imagine the only reason GW never bothered to faq it is because it's not really become a thing until recently. It's probably so far out of left field it's never even crossed their mind that they need to specify it. That "the infantry unit must have the same regiment keyword as the bearer, if they have one" is clearly meant to be for Auxilia units like ogryn or stormtroopers, since the guard codex has many units that lack a regiment trait but can be taken alongside your army anyways.
I mean using your logic, I can outflank anything imperium that's infantry with it. Custodes, sisters, marines, etc.
And if we're discussing RAI, that means does it make sense lore wise. And why on Earth would an officer of the fleet be outflanking with a bunch of Kataphrons in a battle? Now if you were using an IG Techpriest, I could see that argument. He can get the relic same as an Officer of the Fleet and he's admech, even able to take the same FW. Plus he has no regiment trait, but he's still admech for the most part. If you were running him with the dagger, especially with the same Forgeworld, I'd be pretty stumped there. At least that wouldn't feel out of left field like the officer of the fleet does.
I get this is a tournament thread so lore really isn't important, but what I'm trying to say is the moment this becomes a well known thing, GW will take it away, mark my words. Essentially, yeah, it's a good trick, but I highly doubt it's RAI and not only could see TO's ruling against it but GW FAQing it if someone were to bring it to their attention. So don't get used to it I guess is what I'm saying. We have to remember that GW really doesn't care about this game competitively like the players do. It doesn't matter if you have a clever way to do something, if it doesn't match how they feel the game should be played they'll Nerf it, see rule of 3 and a ton of other beta rules.
Ideasweasel wrote: Ryzan Kataphron Destroyers - I’m thinking of pulling the trigger on these for my next purchase.
Just to confirm. The vigilus formation is essential for Noospheric Mind Lock? Dagger of tsu +Ryza plasma stratagem.
Anything other tricks for these bad boys worth I’m missing?
Have you folks been bringing servitors to try and help bring them back or just sticking to damage?
So when your opponent deep strikes close to your Ryzaphrons, you can do: Infoslave Skull + Plasma Specialists. (And before people complain, yes, this is legal, both RAW and RAI, and the TOs for SCO, BAO, and LVO have all chimed in and agreed. Because if "as if" != "is", then factions like Ynarri and Chaos Daemons immediately lose a ton of their power. For example, stuff like fly would no longer operate in the psychic phase.)
I think the Servitors are a waste for the Destroyers. They MIGHT be okay for non-Agripinaa Breachers. I invite those with more experience with Breachers chime in.
The aervitors i like if your filling an elite slot cheaply in a brigade they are not really worth it in the maniple its just too costly for too little reward
As far as I've tested, the resurrection for a Serwitor is very niche - as Kataphrons get focused until killed entirely. Just as any major threat in 40k.
As for the Ynnari - the only sensible solution I've found so far is to bunker in some sort of a ruin and wait until Spears come to you. If the Ynnari didn't take any LoS-free shooting, and your squishy targets are safe from soulburst activation, he basically lost his turn. If he won't come to you, he will eventually lose a winning matchup. If he did, there's a chance you can pop Spears or cripple them severly. This is however very terrain dependant strategy - a bad table can shut you down, just as usual.
Damn that character gives me admech vibes from looks and rules, meanwhile we get the manipulus lackluster aura and equipment
I dont get the hate for the manipulus that a lot of people seem to be expressing, hes overcosted but his datasheet isnt bad, i've had tons of fun playing him in different lists. Warhammer isnt all about competitive.
Damn that character gives me admech vibes from looks and rules, meanwhile we get the manipulus lackluster aura and equipment
I dont get the hate for the manipulus that a lot of people seem to be expressing, hes overcosted but his datasheet isnt bad, i've had tons of fun playing him in different lists. Warhammer isnt all about competitive.
This has nothing to do with competetiv.
First: he is bloated and not appealing model wise.
Second: he has no impact whatsoever with weapons that are low range, with low bs and arent that good anyway he will seldom do a wound. Neither will his rules matter much
The Manipulus isn't particularly exciting and he's a bit overcosted but Bolster Weapons is absolutely fantastic and he adds a bit of bite to our backline if enemies get too close. AP-1 2 damage autohits and Mechadendrites will help keep away some harassment units. I would be surprised if it doesn't turn into a staple for competitive and casual lists alike, I can't really see myself leaving it out of any lists. Extra range on cognis flamers, plasma culverins, heavy phosphor blasters, cognis heavy stubbers, radium carbines and galvanic rifles? I'll upgrade an Enginseer to a Manipulus in a blink of an eye. I think it'll win games.
Where TPM is a must IMO is the Ryzaphron build - 36" +5.9" movement (to stay in the aura) +6" Bolster means ~47.9" on very deadly plasma. Which means that this squishy gang can be fitted into the ruin/behind a LoS break, bare the mortar fire, and roll out to wreck a havoc at the Lascannon-ish range. Kastelans can use the TPM to extend their range when locked in place as well, although LoS-breaks are more of a problem for the turret mode.
Bolstering the movement however is very disappointing under the aura activating "at the start of the Movement phase" rule. This activation restriction is the reason why this model is not worth the 90 pts (with the Magnarail and his statline as the second reason). The fact that he can't DS and add the bonus to charge, when you need this additional inch the most. The thing that you have to work it around with the otherwise useless Solar Flare and Lucius FW (so losing the more exciting combos with Drills and Graia for instance) is just... numbing. If this bolster allowed the charge after advance at least, then maybe I could justify this part of his skill somehow.
I’m not losing games by being 3-6” out of range. I tend to lose for other reasons
Me too, a lot of the time. I don't mean that it will always make a difference, but I think that it will impact the game regularly. I do often find that some of the things that like to shoot my Kastellan Robots are out of range for the heavy phosphor blasters, for example. It also means some of our units can deploy farther back into our deployment zone, or spread out a bit more to deny space or reduce the chances of being consolidated into. Maybe I'm pushing them a bit much because I'm quite tired of having so many redundant Enginseers
Manipulus is the reason behind ad mech going top again + ca18 point decrease .
I will try to say it simple so most can understand it .
I got let's say a ranger with galvanic and you got a ranger as well but I got 6+" and you don't from manipulus . Now imagine all guns Robots plasma etc. The extra range win games!!
Yoda79 wrote: Manipulus is the reason behind ad mech going top again + ca18 point decrease .
I will try to say it simple so most can understand it .
I got let's say a ranger with galvanic and you got a ranger as well but I got 6+" and you don't from manipulus . Now imagine all guns Robots plasma etc. The extra range win games!!
Not really current top lists still run stygies 6 dragoons, only snipers and enginseers being units with point decreases.
Yoda79 wrote: Manipulus is the reason behind ad mech going top again + ca18 point decrease .
I will try to say it simple so most can understand it .
I got let's say a ranger with galvanic and you got a ranger as well but I got 6+" and you don't from manipulus . Now imagine all guns Robots plasma etc. The extra range win games!!
Not really current top lists still run stygies 6 dragoons, only snipers and enginseers being units with point decreases.
I can't really believe TPM being useful for something else than Kataphrons and Robots. +6" on Rangers is ok-ish I guess, having RF activated at 18" is a nice gimmick, but would that be a game winning? Do Onagers need the +6" so badly?
By the way, how does the Culexus' fight last stratagem and Dragoons combo in the tournaments? Having been playing lately, but in theory, this stratagem solves the biggest problem of the Dragoons - being charged. The low range of 3" will make it tricky to operate though.
I actually think the TPM is very useful. He greatly extends the range of the Dakkabot alpha strike, and range is the primary deciding factor on who has to move first in a shooting matchup. For example, in Tau, TPM means they don't get to do the first turn Kauyon deathball thing as easily.
I do think that he could stand to go down to 60-75 points.
Damn that character gives me admech vibes from looks and rules, meanwhile we get the manipulus lackluster aura and equipment
I dont get the hate for the manipulus that a lot of people seem to be expressing, hes overcosted but his datasheet isnt bad, i've had tons of fun playing him in different lists. Warhammer isnt all about competitive.
This has nothing to do with competetiv.
First: he is bloated and not appealing model wise.
Second: he has no impact whatsoever with weapons that are low range, with low bs and arent that good anyway he will seldom do a wound. Neither will his rules matter much
well i dont think we can judge the model by its looks since its a 100% subjective thing. i personally love how he looks.
most of our characters arent judged by their damage output, and having a flamer to defend the castle if it does get assaulted is super good.
his aura is super strong and versatile, adding range to dakkabots that got locked in the center of the map is brutal, helping fulgurites get a T1 charge is also strong, or just helping reposition whatever unit to get a clutch objective secure is really good.
U02dah4 wrote: Tpm is useless in one of the longest range armies in the game admech improvement is down to the price drop
what makes the tpm good is its versatility, you dont HAVE to use only his range buffing. i've had lots of success using him with stygies fulgurites and with ryzaphrons
Neither buffs work for me, i'm never out of range for shooting for the things that I need to be in range and the extra movement isn't enough to justify the cost.
I also dont get why the datasheet for the manipulus isnt the same as a dominus..only BS3 on a HQ unit of one of the most shooty army in the entire game.
Still, because the ranged abilities of the dominus and manipulus are so poor it's exactly why the aura is so important and why it falls short.
What versatility. He is ineffective in damage output he doesnt buff movement enough to make a credible difference in the majority of gamea and we dont need a range buff.
Doing a range of things badly is not versatile in a meaningfull way. Her 40-50pt model unfortunately hes priced at double that
U02dah4 wrote: What versatility. He is ineffective in damage output he doesnt buff movement enough to make a credible difference in the majority of gamea and we dont need a range buff.
Doing a range of things badly is not versatile in a meaningfull way. Her 40-50pt model unfortunately hes priced at double that
You should ignore his pts cost at the moment since its almost certain that he'll get a point cost reduction in the future (GW said that he was supposed to be a middle point between the enginseer and dominus).
It all depends how you play him, mine has done a lot more damage in the games that i've played hmi than my dominus ever did, i pair him with my fulgurites and move up the map quickly with the flamer, advancing until he can get in melee, where he can do a decent bit of damage.
saying that his buffs dont make enough of a credible difference is also wrong, lets say youre playing on a dawn of war deployment, that means that you have 24" to get to the enemy lines (since most people will deploy stuff right up to their edge). if youre playing drillless fulgurites, you're gonna give them a 9" scout move pregame. you start the game at 15". Without the manipulus, you move up 6" and are left with a 9" charge to make, meaning that you have a 27.78% chance of making it. With the manipulus, you only need a 7" charge, which gives a 58.34% success rate. add a command reroll to the charge and you get 52% vs 80% success rate. thats huge for a unit that wants to get into melee as fast as possible.
The range buff is less interesting but giving kastellans 42" means that its harder for the opponents to get out of range of them, you can easily cover 3-4 objectives with one unit with that much range. the same applies to destroyers except with them its even better since it allows them to stay on an objective for Aquisition at any cost while still being able to shoot at stuff. Against an army with similar range to ours , gettign an extra 6" means that we can sit back with our heavy weapons and be in range, while the opponent HAS to move theirs to get in range (if youre playing stygies you basically give heavy weapons -2 to hit). Speaking of stygies, the extra range lets your gunline add more distance, assuring you benefit from the dogma.
Just because he isnt OP doesnt mean he's a bad model.
Why would you play Drilless, footslogging, Fulgurites to begin with? :p If you are not starting, or (what's as likely to happen) your opponent is not deployed at the border of his zone, your Fulgurites are dead turn 1. If you happen to play Hammer and Anvil - your Fulgurites are dead turn 1. In most scenarios vs event players, Fulgurites aredead turn 1, without being hidden and transported. You can drop them via Lucius, and jump TPM with Solar Flare if your really want Fulgurites without the Drill, but other than that - TPM wont save neither help them too much. Dragoons are a better idea to try turn 1 charges, but they are not capitilising from the bolster that much, having 19" of initial movement to begin with (plus they outrun the TPM without the 5+ Advance).
Besides... When TPM enters the battle - he dies. W4 is not going to keep him alive for long. A bunch of Catachan chaff (or anything but... Idk, Skitarii/Firewarriors grade chaff) will melt him away easily.
The additional range at least gives a serious buff to the 36" plasmas and robots, that's where TPM shines.
Why would you play Drilless, footslogging, Fulgurites to begin with? :p If you are not starting, or (what's as likely to happen) your opponent is not deployed at the border of his zone, your Fulgurites are dead turn 1. If you happen to play Hammer and Anvil - your Fulgurites are dead turn 1. In most scenarios vs event players, Fulgurites aredead turn 1, without being hidden and transported. You can drop them via Lucius, and jump TPM with Solar Flare if your really want Fulgurites without the Drill, but other than that - TPM wont save neither help them too much. Dragoons are a better idea to try turn 1 charges, but they are not capitilising from the bolster that much, having 19" of initial movement to begin with (plus they outrun the TPM without the 5+ Advance).
Besides... When TPM enters the battle - he dies. W4 is not going to keep him alive for long. A bunch of Catachan chaff (or anything but... Idk, Skitarii/Firewarriors grade chaff) will melt him away easily.
The additional range at least gives a serious buff to the 36" plasmas and robots, that's where TPM shines.
i play drillless because people around here have a stigma against forgeworld because of a few horror stories from OP units in the past .
Also, the drill doesnt let you run a full size squad of fulgurites.
And if my opponent wipes my fulgurites on turn 1 i dont mind that much since it means that my other wincons werent targetted, i usually have fulgurites, onager and ryzaphrons are main sources of damage so no matter how i play, one of them is dying on turn 1.
I get that from a competitive point of view the tpm isnt the best, but you cant call him terrible since in most games hes gonna be played(casually) hes really fun and brings something that admech lacks, mobility.
Nah, he's terrible. His benefits are so bad that, even if he were 10 points cheaper than the Dominus, I'd never run him. Hell he could be 1 point more expensive than the Enginseer and people would still not run him.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Nah, he's terrible. His benefits are so bad that, even if he were 10 points cheaper than the Dominus, I'd never run him. Hell he could be 1 point more expensive than the Enginseer and people would still not run him.
You're overreacting now. 31 pts TPM would make him auto-include in every army. For the sole sake not being Enginseer :p
Imo his price tag should sit at 60pts. Also the movement aura should get a bonus - either more significant numbers, either additional effect. Or... Be an aura that works by default in the movement bolster mode, switchable at the start of the Movement phase. This simple change would make this model so much more useful - as he could've ride in transport, or be DSed, and bring actually some added value the same turn he arrives.
If you play competitive and you can't find TPM priceless then please think again.
Today top army in ad mech is kataphron spam. I don't know where you play or what you play but I got results from February
And I have posted as well the results unbeaten...
I use ATM 15 breachers 9 plasma destroryes with robots and TPM. I dont understand what you play and bumbling but I have out shot castellan custodes ad mech Tau orks sisters got 3 prizes I'm undefeated in local tour . And if you don't like me go see belgium undefeated lions England winners same winner English GtFe weeks ago.
I don't know really if I have to say it differently but the list is broken good. Broken .
You want a gun line then your kataphrins are a 48" Inc threat . 36+6+6 move . What you talking about you don't understand competitive wise what is the difference ??? Especially vs what armies . You don't see why an onager needs +6" when your enemies that actually threats to your onagers are 48"? I don't get it .
You don't understand you forcing your enemies from deployment they can't even hide a knight in corner . You got the range to threat all map from deployment . Making enemies play aggrwively you believe have no advantage ???
Plz I can't read no more of this.
Play the list and you LL understand .
As for movement buff.
The TPM is buffing all gun line or movement of kataphrons.
When you play a mobile army like custodes that gonna run an hide you don't find +1 +1 valuable ?? Have you ever need to run the field with troops? Now your troops that already win gun line armies win many melee fights can also run and move faster to take obj claim or clear obj behind enemy lines etcetc.
I have tabled most armies and I struggled after the 1-2-3 round to claim the game . Not anymore .
I don't know what you talking about but for the list with breachers TPM is my center piece more than Cawl.
Tip I can't say all those super things I improved playing the list nor I LL spend time to post it. Just trust me and play it it's top TOP
U02dah4 wrote: What versatility. He is ineffective in damage output he doesnt buff movement enough to make a credible difference in the majority of gamea and we dont need a range buff.
Doing a range of things badly is not versatile in a meaningfull way. Her 40-50pt model unfortunately hes priced at double that
You should ignore his pts cost at the moment since its almost certain that he'll get a point cost reduction in the future (GW said that he was supposed to be a middle point between the enginseer and dominus).
It all depends how you play him, mine has done a lot more damage in the games that i've played hmi than my dominus ever did, i pair him with my fulgurites and move up the map quickly with the flamer, advancing until he can get in melee, where he can do a decent bit of damage.
saying that his buffs dont make enough of a credible difference is also wrong, lets say youre playing on a dawn of war deployment, that means that you have 24" to get to the enemy lines (since most people will deploy stuff right up to their edge). if youre playing drillless fulgurites, you're gonna give them a 9" scout move pregame. you start the game at 15". Without the manipulus, you move up 6" and are left with a 9" charge to make, meaning that you have a 27.78% chance of making it. With the manipulus, you only need a 7" charge, which gives a 58.34% success rate. add a command reroll to the charge and you get 52% vs 80% success rate. thats huge for a unit that wants to get into melee as fast as possible.
The range buff is less interesting but giving kastellans 42" means that its harder for the opponents to get out of range of them, you can easily cover 3-4 objectives with one unit with that much range. the same applies to destroyers except with them its even better since it allows them to stay on an objective for Aquisition at any cost while still being able to shoot at stuff. Against an army with similar range to ours , gettign an extra 6" means that we can sit back with our heavy weapons and be in range, while the opponent HAS to move theirs to get in range (if youre playing stygies you basically give heavy weapons -2 to hit). Speaking of stygies, the extra range lets your gunline add more distance, assuring you benefit from the dogma.
Just because he isnt OP doesnt mean he's a bad model.
its always good to assume your opponent knows how to play they know your stygies they see your fulgurites they deploy 3-6 inches back your charge wont come close to makeing it your fulgurites are out in the open without their invul buff. It doesnt end well for them. Mostly castellans would be deployed forward giving a range of half your opponents deployment zone without moving T1. sure the manipulus is mildly better but that mars list is still only mediochre as a good player can play around it. The main problem they have is they are stationary and so LOS blocking terrain messes them up.
many things are not bad without being op the manipulous is bad and points is always a factor look at kataphrons post and pre chapter approved from terrible to reasonable mostly due to points
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Nah, he's terrible. His benefits are so bad that, even if he were 10 points cheaper than the Dominus, I'd never run him. Hell he could be 1 point more expensive than the Enginseer and people would still not run him.
You're overreacting now. 31 pts TPM would make him auto-include in every army. For the sole sake not being Enginseer :p
Imo his price tag should sit at 60pts. Also the movement aura should get a bonus - either more significant numbers, either additional effect. Or... Be an aura that works by default in the movement bolster mode, switchable at the start of the Movement phase. This simple change would make this model so much more useful - as he could've ride in transport, or be DSed, and bring actually some added value the same turn he arrives.
Sarcasm is clearly lost on some people 10-15pts more than an enginseer id run him routinely 20pts fair price in select lists only at 60pts i wont run him
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoda79 wrote: If you play competitive and you can't find TPM priceless then please think again.
Today top army in ad mech is kataphron spam. I don't know where you play or what you play but I got results from February
And I have posted as well the results unbeaten...
I use ATM 15 breachers 9 plasma destroryes with robots and TPM. I dont understand what you play and bumbling but I have out shot castellan custodes ad mech Tau orks sisters got 3 prizes I'm undefeated in local tour . And if you don't like me go see belgium undefeated lions England winners same winner English GtFe weeks ago.
I don't know really if I have to say it differently but the list is broken good. Broken .
You want a gun line then your kataphrins are a 48" Inc threat . 36+6+6 move . What you talking about you don't understand competitive wise what is the difference ??? Especially vs what armies . You don't see why an onager needs +6" when your enemies that actually threats to your onagers are 48"? I don't get it .
You don't understand you forcing your enemies from deployment they can't even hide a knight in corner . You got the range to threat all map from deployment . Making enemies play aggrwively you believe have no advantage ???
Plz I can't read no more of this.
Play the list and you LL understand .
As for movement buff.
The TPM is buffing all gun line or movement of kataphrons.
When you play a mobile army like custodes that gonna run an hide you don't find +1 +1 valuable ?? Have you ever need to run the field with troops? Now your troops that already win gun line armies win many melee fights can also run and move faster to take obj claim or clear obj behind enemy lines etcetc.
I have tabled most armies and I struggled after the 1-2-3 round to claim the game . Not anymore .
I don't know what you talking about but for the list with breachers TPM is my center piece more than Cawl.
Tip I can't say all those super things I improved playing the list nor I LL spend time to post it. Just trust me and play it it's top TOP
well the difference i put my kataphrons on the frontline and then roll them forward unless im up against a hoard. So T1 24" forward already 36" from weapon range 6" from movement T2 im hitting the backboard
Again my onager move forward behind my infantry extending their LD buff with the 48" they can back board T1 so unless your playing some weird multitable game the extra range is wasted
Honestly guys, the question is really simple: How many points would you pay to add 6" to a unit's guns OR 1" move/advance/charge? Most armies don't even have this option. I think it's extremely valuable (and definitely not bad), even if 90 points is a bit more than I would like to pay for it.
Yoda79 wrote: If you play competitive and you can't find TPM priceless then please think again.
Today top army in ad mech is kataphron spam. I don't know where you play or what you play but I got results from February
And I have posted as well the results unbeaten...
I use ATM 15 breachers 9 plasma destroryes with robots and TPM. I dont understand what you play and bumbling but I have out shot castellan custodes ad mech Tau orks sisters got 3 prizes I'm undefeated in local tour . And if you don't like me go see belgium undefeated lions England winners same winner English GtFe weeks ago.
I don't know really if I have to say it differently but the list is broken good. Broken .
You want a gun line then your kataphrins are a 48" Inc threat . 36+6+6 move . What you talking about you don't understand competitive wise what is the difference ??? Especially vs what armies . You don't see why an onager needs +6" when your enemies that actually threats to your onagers are 48"? I don't get it .
You don't understand you forcing your enemies from deployment they can't even hide a knight in corner . You got the range to threat all map from deployment . Making enemies play aggrwively you believe have no advantage ???
Plz I can't read no more of this.
Play the list and you LL understand .
As for movement buff.
The TPM is buffing all gun line or movement of kataphrons.
When you play a mobile army like custodes that gonna run an hide you don't find +1 +1 valuable ?? Have you ever need to run the field with troops? Now your troops that already win gun line armies win many melee fights can also run and move faster to take obj claim or clear obj behind enemy lines etcetc.
I have tabled most armies and I struggled after the 1-2-3 round to claim the game . Not anymore .
I don't know what you talking about but for the list with breachers TPM is my center piece more than Cawl.
Tip I can't say all those super things I improved playing the list nor I LL spend time to post it. Just trust me and play it it's top TOP
Have to agree with yoda on this. I went 4-1 last gt, ending 14th out of 110, with a far from optimised list. Only had 12 breechers, bots, cawl, tpm, no destroyers...rest was chaff. Tpm is awesome, the additional threat he makes all our stuff is great and you can almost guarantee being able to touch whatever you need to and his lance was useful finishing off threats. Definatly worth looking into
and I will look at my last GT and can think of only a single round where the extra range would have changed my target. If our average range was 12-24 i would pay more for it but when your 36"+ often with no penalty to move and fire you don't need it.
Count yourselves what units do you fire at and how often would you still fire at them if you didn't have the range boost
U02dah4 wrote: and I will look at my last GT and can think of only a single round where the extra range would have changed my target. If our average range was 12-24 i would pay more for it but when your 36"+ often with no penalty to move and fire you don't need it.
Count yourselves what units do you fire at and how often would you still fire at them if you didn't have the range boost
My thoughts exactly. The only reason for TPM being auto-include in my Ryzaphrons build is their squishyness - with the TPM I can relatively easily hide them in the ruins or out of LoS, and peek from behind it without being harassed by Punisher Tank Commander. Breachers might as well use this range, but I see them more as a sturdy screen, not something I expect to shoot and kill. For a Cawlstar I'd pick up Manipulus as well. But any other troops, or vehicles? For a pure Metalika list Manipulus adds actually a lot of movement, but it's rather a niche for semi-competitive play.
The range buff is less interesting but giving kastellans 42" means that its harder for the opponents to get out of range of them, you can easily cover 3-4 objectives with one unit with that much range. the same applies to destroyers except with them its even better since it allows them to stay on an objective for Aquisition at any cost while still being able to shoot at stuff. Against an army with similar range to ours , gettign an extra 6" means that we can sit back with our heavy weapons and be in range, while the opponent HAS to move theirs to get in range (if youre playing stygies you basically give heavy weapons -2 to hit). Speaking of stygies, the extra range lets your gunline add more distance, assuring you benefit from the dogma.
Just because he isnt OP doesnt mean he's a bad model.
Wow. Local meta there is quite different to here if you can cover from one location 3-4 objectives without running into LOS issues. Ranges above 36" aren't all that important here due to LOS being more of issue and covering more than 2 objectives from one position is pretty hard(and range isn't going to do it)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: Honestly guys, the question is really simple: How many points would you pay to add 6" to a unit's guns OR 1" move/advance/charge? Most armies don't even have this option. I think it's extremely valuable (and definitely not bad), even if 90 points is a bit more than I would like to pay for it.
Depends obviously on guns and units ;-) For guns it's combination of weapon type, range and unit speed. Critical bands are 12-18 and 24-30"(more so with heavy). Oh and 6-12 for deep striking units.
But for some 36" range weapon it's less of issue particularly if non-heavy.
And movement boost helps most assault units. It's super valuable for say h2h infantry(which is why evil sun trait is best for orks) but then you have shooty unit it's pointless. Evil sun flashgits would be total junk for example.
many things are not bad without being op the manipulous is bad and points is always a factor look at kataphrons post and pre chapter approved from terrible to reasonable mostly due to points
which proves my point, the points drop is expected to come soon, i'm pretty confident that once he's appropriatly priced he'll be included in a lot more lists and get less flak.
tneva82 wrote: Depends obviously on guns and units ;-) For guns it's combination of weapon type, range and unit speed. Critical bands are 12-18 and 24-30"(more so with heavy). Oh and 6-12 for deep striking units.
But for some 36" range weapon it's less of issue particularly if non-heavy.
And movement boost helps most assault units. It's super valuable for say h2h infantry(which is why evil sun trait is best for orks) but then you have shooty unit it's pointless. Evil sun flashgits would be total junk for example.
Sure. But I can think of a lot of matchups where forcing an enemy with 36" to move can be advantageous. Take Triptides as just one example.
Furthermore, 42" pretty much guarantees you will outrange anything with less than 36" range that is not a fast vehicle.
Finally, consider that a 16.67% increase in range translates into a 36.11% increase in coverage.
I personally included a TPM in my AdMech gunline list ASAP, and while I only was able to play a few games before leaving on business, the results were good. If anything, it really gave me some really useful flexibility for the Cawlstar.
many things are not bad without being op the manipulous is bad and points is always a factor look at kataphrons post and pre chapter approved from terrible to reasonable mostly due to points
which proves my point, the points drop is expected to come soon, i'm pretty confident that once he's appropriatly priced he'll be included in a lot more lists and get less flak.
all that proves is he is rubbish now anything else is speculation points changes are unlikely till CA and thats a long wait
Seriously, let's tamp down the hyperbole. He's overcosted by like, 15 points. And he's not garbage. He has a unique force multiplier with an opportunity cost of 60 points. Maybe you can use those 60 points better than to give some units 6" more range, but some armies might really want that, such as those running a 6x Cawlstar or Ballistarii.
I mean, do I really need to remind you all that we ran Dominuses overcosted by 30 points with an opportunity cost of 90 points before this? And 6" range is more impactful than reroll ones, given we have a Canticle for it. (In the early codex days, some of us were so fed up with how overcosted Dominus was that we were thinking Cawlstar + Stygies, and we use Canticle to give the Stygies rerolls instead of paying for a Dominus.)
During the Index days, sure? But at that point, we were running Cawlstar with a Knight most of the time and screening with Dragoons.
By the time we got to the codex, we had Enginseers. Hence the discussion of whether or not Dominus was worth taking at all. And some people did take them.
Suzuteo wrote: During the Index days, sure? But at that point, we were running Cawlstar with a Knight most of the time and screening with Dragoons.
By the time we got to the codex, we had Enginseers. Hence the discussion of whether or not Dominus was worth taking at all. And some people did take them.
Only one though until even a further price cut. That should say everything, especially with a Dominus actually boosting offense for your units.
Sure. But what I am saying is that AdMech has always had to bear with opportunity costs when picking force multipliers. Use the same principles here. Taking a TPM is me saying: I will pay 8 points each to give my 6x Dakkabots and 2x Icarus Crawlers +6" range or +1" move/advance/charge on any given turn.
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: House Raven, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Knight Castellan [30 PL, 604pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heirloom: Cawl's Wrath, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Two Siegebreaker Cannons and Two Shieldbreaker Missiles: 2x Shieldbreaker Missile, 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon
I like the list contains enough threats its a bit 2018 style of not war convocation. Definetly the dragoons rock and castellan . Priest woth drill good combo . Dont see why not.
Personally so its not critisism i ll just say why i dont play this list.
A) castellan is somewhat a known threat and both ny last tournament game days i killed 6 of them . So the current meta has solutions vs them. + The fact with new assasins and extra cp spending seems hard to keep feeding him cp. Especially Raven that will produce with more cp.
B) we dont use forgeworld units so the drill is out for me. Though if im not mistaken. The combination requires at least two drills + max units of priests to actualy provide consistent results . Same as castellan if you got a cp drain issue you definetly dont have 3+ cp for priests to fight again . So both small model count and cp issue make this decision not good enough. Sure some games will shine but this i not a plan and it lucks proper backup.
C) guard and knights i have already played solo ad mech and i have to say i lost top spot from my own mistakes since i went there to practise the list without enough training . That said my solo ad mech (+assasins) shine extremely well so i prefer it over wnything else.
+ My solo ad mech also helps my training for team tournaments where i will actually want results. Not taking other armies in my list is superb amd tbh after playing the list i dont want allies in it more than assasin options to cover our army s problems .
D) dragoons what a force but. The only reason i d play them would be if i knew my enemy before hand. If you dont and play a list in a competitive enviroment there issues yku cant overcome.
Like fliers. And its v v common now to see flier list or knight lists etc and dragoons are half way there . Not bad but not a solution . Since you are a force that could deal woth knights and floers easy then why not. And dragoons shine as stygies only and i got no room for stygies . Simce it will not co op with Cawl etc.
And overall ad mech after infiltration change returned to the classik issue . No super synergies for cc. So i would not build around melee setup.
I will be very disappointed if this is not an AdMech vehicle because that looks exactly like a Dunecrawler hatch.
Other Imperial factions like Guard and Knights also use that style. For example this Taurox top hatch also looks very similair:
Spoiler:
But I'm hopeful it's AdMech; they still have very few unit choices and the appearance of the Tech Priest Manipulus does seem to indicate they're working on AdMech on some level. A new campaign book or codex v2 to add a few units like they did for CSM would not surprise me.
Tips? Advice? Tricks? Got some options both w knights and admech
Work on screening, sacrifice your vanguard / rangers so he HAS to kill them to get to your castle, take space on the map so that theres a lot of room between yout frontline and gunline. make sure that your damage dealers aren't close to a ruin so you force him to get overwatched at the very least if he gets to you.
if you have a manipulus / kataphron destroyers you could use them to make sure the flamers can overwatch at 11"
Tips? Advice? Tricks? Got some options both w knights and admech
Work on screening, sacrifice your vanguard / rangers so he HAS to kill them to get to your castle, take space on the map so that theres a lot of room between yout frontline and gunline. make sure that your damage dealers aren't close to a ruin so you force him to get overwatched at the very least if he gets to you.
if you have a manipulus / kataphron destroyers you could use them to make sure the flamers can overwatch at 11"
I will be very disappointed if this is not an AdMech vehicle because that looks exactly like a Dunecrawler hatch.
While you may be right, given the known release schedule I would hazard it's for the Sisters release. The second pic seems to have more in common with a Repulsor, to my eyes, which would line up rather nicely with the release of the Vigilus Primaris marines.
I will be very disappointed if this is not an AdMech vehicle because that looks exactly like a Dunecrawler hatch.
While you may be right, given the known release schedule I would hazard it's for the Sisters release. The second pic seems to have more in common with a Repulsor, to my eyes, which would line up rather nicely with the release of the Vigilus Primaris marines.
That said, I want you to be right.
This has been discussed quite a bit in the Rumor Engine thread, but no. It wouldn't make sense for the Sisters.
Spoiler:
The Fleur de Lys is not the same iconography as what we saw in the Rumor Engine thread.
It is worth mentioning that the Taurox has a similar icon as do Scions, Onagers, Ironstriders, Kataphron Servitors, and Knights. I've actually been wondering for awhile if the Scions were an early pass at making an AdMech trooper.
Tips? Advice? Tricks? Got some options both w knights and admech
First, questions/advice about the list:
1) You should mix Forge Worlds to gain access to Graia's Abhor and Stygies Infiltrate. Pure Mars is a bit useless, especially if you don't have Breachers or things that can fight and shoot together, and if you're bringing Cawl.
2) Is your Knight magnetized? Making him a Crusader would be helpful, since you'll mostly be using his Feet anyways.
3) Any chance you have Infiltrators? They would be very useful in this matchup. Much more so than the Warglaives. 2 more Kastelans is another option.
This matchup is all about preventing his Berserkers from getting into charge range while also screening the Bloodletter bombs. There's no winning it for him if this goes to 6 rounds, so he has to close in with you.
Deploy extremely defensively. Ideally, castle your Dakkabots and Skitarii along a table edge or some impassable terrain feature (be sure to clarify what those features are early on). The standard formation is infantry in columns at least 2"+<base size of enemy model> away from your Kastelans. Use your Crawler to anchor the flank of that infantry screen, also that distance apart; his giant base is great for this sort of thing. Warden, Dragoons, and Warglaives should be placed further up, perhaps perpendicular to the enemy line of advance to intercept transports or perhaps force the Cultists to tarpit you; if you opt for a Crusader, you should keep him with your castle.
On turn two, disperse your infantry to push the bombs further out. Hopefully, they kill them all and thus cannot get a surround off. Definitely deploy in columns as usual so if they choose to shoot before the charge, you can just remove the frontmost models.
Beyond that, it's just a matter of seeing if you can gun down the closest threats before they reach your Dakkabots.
Tips? Advice? Tricks? Got some options both w knights and admech
First, questions/advice about the list:
1) You should mix Forge Worlds to gain access to Graia's Abhor and Stygies Infiltrate. Pure Mars is a bit useless, especially if you don't have Breachers or things that can fight and shoot together, and if you're bringing Cawl.
2) Is your Knight magnetized? Making him a Crusader would be helpful, since you'll mostly be using his Feet anyways.
3) Any chance you have Infiltrators? They would be very useful in this matchup. Much more so than the Warglaives. 2 more Kastelans is another option.
This matchup is all about preventing his Berserkers from getting into charge range while also screening the Bloodletter bombs. There's no winning it for him if this goes to 6 rounds, so he has to close in with you.
Deploy extremely defensively. Ideally, castle your Dakkabots and Skitarii along a table edge or some impassable terrain feature (be sure to clarify what those features are early on). The standard formation is infantry in columns at least 2"+<base size of enemy model> away from your Kastelans. Use your Crawler to anchor the flank of that infantry screen, also that distance apart; his giant base is great for this sort of thing. Warden, Dragoons, and Warglaives should be placed further up, perhaps perpendicular to the enemy line of advance to intercept transports or perhaps force the Cultists to tarpit you; if you opt for a Crusader, you should keep him with your castle.
On turn two, disperse your infantry to push the bombs further out. Hopefully, they kill them all and thus cannot get a surround off. Definitely deploy in columns as usual so if they choose to shoot before the charge, you can just remove the frontmost models.
Beyond that, it's just a matter of seeing if you can gun down the closest threats before they reach your Dakkabots.
1) I would switch this, but the match is in 1 hr now, and I don't yet feel comfortable - I don't even know what Graia's Abhor is (I will find this out), and I'm not sure where to use Stygies Infiltrate? Their -1 to hit won't come into effect against this army much either. Not against your suggestion, just don't have time to get comfortable with it.
2) Yes, absolutely. Done, and good point. I kept the Fist around to Death Grip his characters/demon when they got close, but I agree that the firepower would be better. Feet rock anyway, and this justifies First Knight (reroll 1s to hit) on my Knight.
3) Yes, I do! I removed the Warglaives, and put in a unit of 10 of them.
A) Thank you for the tips on screening. The 2+<base size of enemy model> in columns (that is I I I I instead of _ _ _ _ ?) is a great tip.
B) Tip on remaining perpedinucular to enemy line of advance highly useful. Will also be testing this, as well as putting the gunline as far away as possible. This guy has a tendency to show up early and put lots and lots of terrain on the board - will see how that goes.
Will report how it goes.
Updated list:
-Cawl
-3x enginebois
-Same 6x infantry, now w some arc rifles cos pts free
-10x Infiltrators
-3x Sydonian taserbois (would take 6 if had 6)
-4x dakkabots
-Icarus duneboi
Hey folks,
atm I'm working on a soup list an need some help finishing it.
It's for an 1750 points ITC event.
The core of the list would be three Batallions:
Mixed AdMech
- TPD Ryza
- TPE Graia
- 2 x Skitarii Graia
- 6 x Plasmaphrons
BA Batallion
- 2x Smash Cpt
- 3x5 scouts
Cadian Batallion
- 2x officer
- 3 x infantry
- 3 x 3 Mortars
- officer of the fleet
Already accounting for 85 points for an Assassin I still have 470 points left to spend, but I'm not quite sure on what. I definitely need some more anti horde / melee. I was thinking a big block of Dragoons, but I would have to put them out in the open and so far everything in this list can hide turn 1. Other ideas would be mars Infiltrators or lemartes + Death Company.
So your suggestions and feedback on the list in general are appreciated.
1) I would switch this, but the match is in 1 hr now, and I don't yet feel comfortable - I don't even know what Graia's Abhor is (I will find this out), and I'm not sure where to use Stygies Infiltrate? Their -1 to hit won't come into effect against this army much either. Not against your suggestion, just don't have time to get comfortable with it.
2) Yes, absolutely. Done, and good point. I kept the Fist around to Death Grip his characters/demon when they got close, but I agree that the firepower would be better. Feet rock anyway, and this justifies First Knight (reroll 1s to hit) on my Knight.
3) Yes, I do! I removed the Warglaives, and put in a unit of 10 of them.
A) Thank you for the tips on screening. The 2+<base size of enemy model> in columns (that is I I I I instead of _ _ _ _ ?) is a great tip.
B) Tip on remaining perpedinucular to enemy line of advance highly useful. Will also be testing this, as well as putting the gunline as far away as possible. This guy has a tendency to show up early and put lots and lots of terrain on the board - will see how that goes.
Will report how it goes.
Updated list:
-Cawl
-3x enginebois
-Same 6x infantry, now w some arc rifles cos pts free
-10x Infiltrators
-3x Sydonian taserbois (would take 6 if had 6)
-4x dakkabots
-Icarus duneboi
-Crusader
1) Graia have a stratagem that is identical to the Black Templar Abhor the Witch stratagem. After your enemy successfully manifests a psychic power within 24" of a Graia unit, you can use the stratagem to deny it on a 4+. This is great to stop various psychic shenanigans commonly used by Chaos. As for Stygies, in a mixed detachment, they don't get the minus to hit. But you can use the stratagem to move at the start of the game, which gets you closer to their transports; they will be forced to screen those vehicles, which are units they can't use against your gunline.
3) Great. You can deploy them on T1 or DS them and just delete an enemy infantry unit.
A) Yup. Columns are also important in the Ynnari matchup because if the last model in a unit removed from the board is outside the 7", Soulburst does not trigger!
B) For assault armies, you just got to force them to split up their forces to buy time. They really want to just get tuck in on your castle and dump CP into their dudes. But if you force them to disembark early or use CP on less important things, you can wear them down.
lash92 wrote: Hey folks,
atm I'm working on a soup list an need some help finishing it.
It's for an 1750 points ITC event.
The core of the list would be three Batallions:
Mixed AdMech
- TPD Ryza
- TPE Graia
- 2 x Skitarii Graia
- 6 x Plasmaphrons
BA Batallion
- 2x Smash Cpt
- 3x5 scouts
Cadian Batallion
- 2x officer
- 3 x infantry
- 3 x 3 Mortars
- officer of the fleet
Already accounting for 85 points for an Assassin I still have 470 points left to spend, but I'm not quite sure on what. I definitely need some more anti horde / melee. I was thinking a big block of Dragoons, but I would have to put them out in the open and so far everything in this list can hide turn 1. Other ideas would be mars Infiltrators or lemartes + Death Company.
So your suggestions and feedback on the list in general are appreciated.
I m not in favor of soups lately since ad mech solo with an assassin seems unbetable for me lately . But I'll try and suggest adding some robots.
I don't know the result but it I'll give you antihorde and with 2 cp elimination volley for your ryzaphrons. Now I'd add 2robots and more plasma but I t needs definetly playytest. I dare suggest a manipulus but I won't start again explaining how important extra range is when you invest in 36" range units . Maybe it because my list is a gun line and after 20 games in 4 toournys including the etc Belgium I saw the enemy playing it I can't imagine how would you castle up if you need without 6" in range. If remain starionary I get 36+6 in Robots and kataphrons and breachers so it buffs 15+ breachers 8+ plasmaphons 3+ Robots .
Have killed knights caetellans guard custodes Tau ad mech sisters space wolf's knights and only tie with flier spam cause of deploy and actually the first game I had to play second cause of range in corrners and plane movement!
And if I need movement again move shoot I even move robot s with cawl and elimintaion volley is fine . Manipulus gives +" movement . So it just fits in there.
Breaches hold the offensive kill tanks vehicles knights even in melee. And all are troops .
As for deep strike enemies as of late I have to say this. 8+ plasmaphrons on the back field leaving 11" gap for deep strike is all I do. I arm them with flamers and use info skull stratagem. So enemy deep strike I can use an infantry unit to shoot with -1 to Dee strike enemies . If you want take 8d6+ plasma 8d6 flamer and then charge again same with cognis flamers . Sure ? As of late I deny deep strike as well. Manipulus give +3" in flamer !!!!!!!
I can't begin to xplain all the benefits this list provides but it does not have many issues of the past .
+1 to hit WTH 1 cp form vigilu
5+ invuu vigilus where you need
Extra range robots can stay pinned round one .
All troops so enemy heavy guns wasted . Obj sec. Can defend melee can shoot. Depending on enemy different highlight uunit . What can I say it's just superb.
Today I faced and extreme Tau . Same extra range extreme Deep strike unit 3ript! Well wiped round two left left with one char . And deep strike just to go thrid round and concede . We knew that as a gun line robots and kataprhons are extreme and vigilus gave survivability on cheap kataprhons range and mobility on robots man while cheaper . It's lethal . Lethal vs anything I faced so far . Hf
Ran into 2 lists with a castellan, crusader, and a cc knight and another list with just a crusader. Purely murdered them. Items are listed because of format we were playing you lock everything in during list building which was terrible. Wanted a shot at one of the gsc guys that were there but didnt happen. Overall though pretty happy it can handle multi knight as that was a concern with my LVO list.
Probably wasn't clear. I won the tourney after playing 2 of those armies. I was worried about multi knight because I didnt get much play against them pre or during LVO. Now I'm good with them. Also most metas here dont allow the dagger trick so I've found plasma destroyers to be a trap. And an expensive one. Also only need to roll 12 shots on 6 dice twice before you get tired of the random.
Congrats to your win. Interesting list, I like your extensive use of Skitarii. Why did you take 2x5 Infiltrators and not 10 to maximize WoM?
Also regarding the dagger: is there some kind of discussion / disagreement between TOs regarding this? Because I wanna take this to a tournament and RAW I can't really find a argument why it should not be allowed.
I dont really use the infiltrators for wrath. That goes to the vanguard or bots 99% of the time. The two units were for small unit hunting and tag team backfield clearance. I'm considering dropping one unit for the magic assassin after adepticon this week.
As for the dagger a lot of our super large event to's are playtesters. While raw supports they've said no on intent and a lot of the community followed suit or just dont do it because they won't be able to at the bigger events.
Ok fair point. You are putting the vanguard in the Drill right?
I really can advice for taking the assassin. It's just so good. Only problem I could see is that you might get into CP problems pretty fast.
How are your Breachers performing? Are you using them as a screen for your bots and crawlers?
Okay, haven't got this "problem" over here in Germany so I think I'm fine to use them. But yeah without the protection of the outflank they become questionable.
Ran into 2 lists with a castellan, crusader, and a cc knight and another list with just a crusader. Purely murdered them. Items are listed because of format we were playing you lock everything in during list building which was terrible. Wanted a shot at one of the gsc guys that were there but didnt happen. Overall though pretty happy it can handle multi knight as that was a concern with my LVO list.
I actually don't think multi-Knight is a big problem for us. We can control the ground a lot better than they can. They are mostly a gatekeeper army that keeps lower skill players out.
Looks interesting though. How did you arrive at 7 Breachers instead of 6 or 9? And what did you load into the Termites?
Hulksmash wrote: Probably wasn't clear. I won the tourney after playing 2 of those armies. I was worried about multi knight because I didnt get much play against them pre or during LVO. Now I'm good with them. Also most metas here dont allow the dagger trick so I've found plasma destroyers to be a trap. And an expensive one. Also only need to roll 12 shots on 6 dice twice before you get tired of the random.
I have not encountered this yet. RAW it is clearly legal. What is the house rule that these TOs have been using? Does it affect cross-codex rules like Implacable Determination and Vexilum Defensor?
Multiple knights being run aggressively at us with a balance of cc and shooting would have been the terror of my LVO list. The requirement to stop the cc ones means free rounds of shooting from the castellan to kill the stuff able to kill it before you finish the charging knights. This has the ability on average to knock out 1.5-2 knights in a single go so going first is almost an instant win but being able to play through it going second.
7 has just felt right. 6 feels like opponents will target because they can get thru it and 9+ makes them a target because of how good they are and because you can force your opponent into cp usage to not lose them all. 7-8 just feels good from those perspectives.
As for the dagger I think it's the fact that gw intends for it to be a regiment based item but wrote it poorly. But it didnt matter much until the recent admech point drop because no one really used it that way. Admech and people using it for plasma put it back on their radars. It's just something to make sure you ask about before going to a 2 day event as you dont want to get surprised by a judge ruling.
Whenever I use the Breachers I regret not having anything else. They are sturdy alright, but their firepower and melee is lacking. Yet I see more and more people to praise them - what do I do wrong? What's the trick?
This is why I think 1 squad is solid. They aren't much more than extra anti-tank shooting and reasonable cc unit that's durable. It basically allows you to bail out/defend your more important bits and 7 of them is worth more than 30 infantry to do so. But I wouldn't use more than 1 squad. Their value is also dependent for me on if you are using them in conjuction with cawl or going stygies. I don't like most of the other set ups.
Its offset by all the deepstriking for me. And mortars dont do solid work against me so I haven't needed a way to take them out turn 1. Plus the list tends to overkill by a bit.
Los is an issue and I struggled initially when I removed the mortars and all deep strike .
Adding an assassin increased my resultts 30% since I can
A) ad sniperr on top f my snipers making a force vs any hrd char buffer army.
B) ad cp Burne assasin somewhat keeps cp hungry and alpha strike a bit controlled
C) gives me back cp I if played correctly .
D) deep strke options etc.
Yet I was overkill first two rounds and struggled a bit later on .
Manipulus gave more aggressive deeploy and enemy defensive dplys that actually increased my movement a lot.
B) started l play split units on breachers gave me more board control while + move from manipulus offered speed options .
And I added 5-8 one group infiltrators is a must.
A) might have lost robots and need to kill a camping iinfsnty
B) use them for like breaker
C) just for kill enemy chars are high invu with wom.
And ofc they are being used cause of marrs fg.
Yes I play 100% Mars I m trying a twist lately maybe I could add one graia but don't really need it .maybe if I go for cp maximize if could ad an Agripiina mixed detchmenrt still testing .
Hulksmash wrote: Multiple knights being run aggressively at us with a balance of cc and shooting would have been the terror of my LVO list. The requirement to stop the cc ones means free rounds of shooting from the castellan to kill the stuff able to kill it before you finish the charging knights. This has the ability on average to knock out 1.5-2 knights in a single go so going first is almost an instant win but being able to play through it going second.
7 has just felt right. 6 feels like opponents will target because they can get thru it and 9+ makes them a target because of how good they are and because you can force your opponent into cp usage to not lose them all. 7-8 just feels good from those perspectives.
As for the dagger I think it's the fact that gw intends for it to be a regiment based item but wrote it poorly. But it didnt matter much until the recent admech point drop because no one really used it that way. Admech and people using it for plasma put it back on their radars. It's just something to make sure you ask about before going to a 2 day event as you dont want to get surprised by a judge ruling.
Oh, and the vanguard go in the drills.
Sure. Every TO I have asked thus far has declined to make an alternate ruling from the RAW. But I am curious about your case. So your TO house rules it so that the Dagger's "if the bearer has [a Regiment]" case is actually a condition: "the bearer must have a Regiment"? While I can see that achieving the desired effect, it doesn't seem RAI either. I think the least intrusive would be to add a "Astra Militarum" condition to the target of the Dagger. But until then, I find it hard to argue against RAW. And really, it's not even the most ridiculous rules lawyering benefit out there. Ynnari as a faction is built on favorable rulings.
Interesting. So Blandguard in a Drill.
dadamowsky wrote:Whenever I use the Breachers I regret not having anything else. They are sturdy alright, but their firepower and melee is lacking. Yet I see more and more people to praise them - what do I do wrong? What's the trick?
I think it's a playstyle thing. Breachers seem to be this low key, jack-of-all-trades unit with nice cost efficiencies. Basically, they are Terminators+. I also struggle to use these sorts of generalized tools because I really like having units for specific purposes. I do recognize though that having generalized tools can be useful in TAC because it improves consistency in extreme matchups. So Breachers might not be the best for anti-tank or for melee, but they won't ever be totally useless.
Yoda79 wrote:Los is an issue and I struggled initially when I removed the mortars and all deep strike .
Adding an assassin increased my resultts 30% since I can
A) ad sniperr on top f my snipers making a force vs any hrd char buffer army.
B) ad cp Burne assasin somewhat keeps cp hungry and alpha strike a bit controlled
C) gives me back cp I if played correctly .
D) deep strke options etc.
Yet I was overkill first two rounds and struggled a bit later on .
Manipulus gave more aggressive deeploy and enemy defensive dplys that actually increased my movement a lot.
B) started l play split units on breachers gave me more board control while + move from manipulus offered speed options .
And I added 5-8 one group infiltrators is a must.
A) might have lost robots and need to kill a camping iinfsnty
B) use them for like breaker
C) just for kill enemy chars are high invu with wom.
And ofc they are being used cause of marrs fg.
Yes I play 100% Mars I m trying a twist lately maybe I could add one graia but don't really need it .maybe if I go for cp maximize if could ad an Agripiina mixed detchmenrt still testing .
I don't own any Assassins, but I am definitely considering them now...
I also really like the Manipulus. It's 60 points well spent because of how much flexibility they give you turns one and two. Also work really well with Breachers probably, given they have only D3 advance.
I actually also arrived at 8 Infiltrators being the optimal size to reliably delete key infantry targets with Wrath of Mars. 10 is too many.
lash92 wrote:Are Plasmaphrons even really worth without Ryza? Sure you gain full rerolls from Cawl but losing the Ryza stratagem seems not worth it for me.
Lol no. They are glass cannons that beta strike super hard. A unit of 6 can put 11 wounds on average on a Castellan. I have killed two Riptides in a single turn too.
last game Tau i filed 4 robots and 9 plasmaphrons besides the breachers.
Since i had manipulus and i was playing first my opponent saw he could not hide all riptides in the corner i was in range with 42" robots. He hide one and the rest remained in range he filed them agreesively in front.
Round one elimination volley on plasma and robots .Wrath of mars on robots. Used 2 robots to eliminate all drones with wrath of mars and rest of basic shooting . Rest robots on riptide. Then 2 plasma on remaining riptide and 7 on the other one. End of round one 2 riptides dead all drones dead .Snipers and sniper assasin took ethereal and a commander .Game over.
then breachers too over all the board infiltrators end the gam round 3 deep strike with wom on last group of deep strike force. GG. And i dont have to mention that against vehicles its even more dedlier cause 15+ breachers shoot 30 volley of rerolling all hits at 42" vs knights usually and every single one that pass its D6 damage.
Hydralic claw is d3 melee damage enough to take anything down.
atm i have 8 hydralic and 8 with out .
TEsting atm 9 plasmaphrons with flamers and infoskull sick.... i v started to eliminate hordes and deep striking forces like orcs easier im missing like 15-30 points to test them all in one list.
Hydraulic claws hit on a 5 though, thats gross lol
I may invest in breachers, i do like them, their ws/bs 4 is palatable at their points cost, though i do wish they benefited from Mindlock like regular servitors.
im starting to get an admech army together, though i havnt purchased most things yet (got a starter box and 2x Admech half of a set box i bought off someone else for cheap)
Should i even bother with electropriests? Expensive $$$ wise and i just fear im never gonna get anything out of them because they are so immensely deadly if allowed to reach melee, and not that hard to kill before they do. Mainly decided to run them so i have something to walk with my Warglaives.
Vineheart01 wrote: im starting to get an admech army together, though i havnt purchased most things yet (got a starter box and 2x Admech half of a set box i bought off someone else for cheap)
Should i even bother with electropriests? Expensive $$$ wise and i just fear im never gonna get anything out of them because they are so immensely deadly if allowed to reach melee, and not that hard to kill before they do. Mainly decided to run them so i have something to walk with my Warglaives.
I own 20, and struggle to get the best out of them. They need the drill now and to be stygies from what I’ve witnessed. Previously I tried anything other than Lucius and they get shot off the board, take them as Lucius and they always fail the 9” charge...
So take up to 12 stygies priests in a drill seems to be the best way to make them reach their target. I’m still undecided on them though for a competitive game.
Yeah that was the only way i felt "safe" using them, though i refuse to pay 130USD for that drill (stupid localization price hykes...wish i could still pay BP and just deal with the long shipping).
Shouldnt be that hard to kitbash some since its...basically a soda can with drillnose and 6 tracks lol. But low priority since i got a lot on my plate to build/paint as it is.
Maybe i should omit the priests for now.
You can try 20 DSed in Lucius and Manipulus with the Solar Flare to help them charge. Great if the charge succeeds, but an expensive flop when doesn't. Drill gives more constistency, if you're willing to wait until turn 3 with the charge (or earlier if deployment allows the Stygies Infiltration shenanigans).
20 Lucius Corpuscarii though... I confirm it being my favorite toy lately. Anything with T5 and below is in serious trouble if you manage to put 60 tesla into it. The problem is with their 12" range and large footprint - they require quite a lot space to land in the range.
Vineheart01 wrote: Turn 3 with the charge? Drill allows them to disembark the turn it arrives, thats a T2 charge attempt (they can still move/charge after disembarking)
If you fancy 9" charge... They fail more often than not in my experience, which is why I tend to run Drill as a waiting place and 3" trampoline for the 12 Fulgurites, instead of Lucius blob of 20.
Vineheart01 wrote: Turn 3 with the charge? Drill allows them to disembark the turn it arrives, thats a T2 charge attempt (they can still move/charge after disembarking)
No, you cannot move after you have disembarked on the same turn as the drill arrives, because it arrives at the end of the Movement phase. Same goes for things like drop pods. You can shoot and charge normally of course.
Vineheart01 wrote: Turn 3 with the charge? Drill allows them to disembark the turn it arrives, thats a T2 charge attempt (they can still move/charge after disembarking)
No, you cannot move after you have disembarked on the same turn as the drill arrives, because it arrives at the end of the Movement phase. Same goes for things like drop pods. You can shoot and charge normally of course.
Edit: Dont use the deepstrike, scout move with stygies, use Disembark as a 3" trampoline and then move and charge.
Vineheart01 wrote: Turn 3 with the charge? Drill allows them to disembark the turn it arrives, thats a T2 charge attempt (they can still move/charge after disembarking)
No, you cannot move after you have disembarked on the same turn as the drill arrives, because it arrives at the end of the Movement phase. Same goes for things like drop pods. You can shoot and charge normally of course.
Dont use the deepstrike, scout move with stygies, move with drill, disembark and charge
you have to disembark before the transport moves
Should i even bother with electropriests? Expensive $$$ wise and i just fear im never gonna get anything out of them because they are so immensely deadly if allowed to reach melee, and not that hard to kill before they do. Mainly decided to run them so i have something to walk with my Warglaives.
i run 15 as stygies with a manipulus, it allows a potential T1 charge with them, and if they fail it, they become a huge distraction carnifex that the opponnent HAS to deal with, they die more often than not, but that means my kataphrons/onagers/ballistarii dont get shot T1
Vineheart01 wrote: Turn 3 with the charge? Drill allows them to disembark the turn it arrives, thats a T2 charge attempt (they can still move/charge after disembarking)
No, you cannot move after you have disembarked on the same turn as the drill arrives, because it arrives at the end of the Movement phase. Same goes for things like drop pods. You can shoot and charge normally of course.
Dont use the deepstrike, scout move with stygies, move with drill, disembark and charge
you have to disembark before the transport moves
You could still get away with a T2 charge if the drill and its contents survive, it's a smidge tougher than a rhino and benefits from the forgeworld bonuses. No canticles though if i remember, you can always pop smoke though i think.
What priests really need is a way of advancing and charging or at least a charge re-roll or SOMETHING. I mean I know we're not an assault army and fulgurites are pretty deadly once you get them in, but man throw us a fricken bone on our mobility lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Turn 3 with the charge? Drill allows them to disembark the turn it arrives, thats a T2 charge attempt (they can still move/charge after disembarking)
No, you cannot move after you have disembarked on the same turn as the drill arrives, because it arrives at the end of the Movement phase. Same goes for things like drop pods. You can shoot and charge normally of course.
Dont use the deepstrike, scout move with stygies, move with drill, disembark and charge
Good luck at hammer and anvil . Don't get me wrong, it's possible and sometimes it comes handy. But DS and tactical advantage of appearing anywhere on the table outweights a meagre 9" move straight into the counter-deployed lines, especially now when you put an entire army down. I gave up an Alpha strike idea anyway - Admech might be able to do it, but it's not very viable. At least in my gaming group. People here tend to dig deep in their deployments lately, or really counter-deploy their lines so any first turn charge would simply go to waste.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah that was the only way i felt "safe" using them, though i refuse to pay 130USD for that drill (stupid localization price hykes...wish i could still pay BP and just deal with the long shipping).
Shouldnt be that hard to kitbash some since its...basically a soda can with drillnose and 6 tracks lol. But low priority since i got a lot on my plate to build/paint as it is.
Maybe i should omit the priests for now.
AdMech P.S.A. - I've said it before and I'll repeat it here: Mantic / Warpath makes a plastic "Termite" for only about US$40. It's already cut off the sprues and so easy to assemble that they don't even include assembly instructions.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah that was the only way i felt "safe" using them, though i refuse to pay 130USD for that drill (stupid localization price hykes...wish i could still pay BP and just deal with the long shipping).
Shouldnt be that hard to kitbash some since its...basically a soda can with drillnose and 6 tracks lol. But low priority since i got a lot on my plate to build/paint as it is.
Maybe i should omit the priests for now.
AdMech P.S.A. - I've said it before and I'll repeat it here: Mantic / Warpath makes a plastic "Termite" for only about US$40. It's already cut off the sprues and so easy to assemble that they don't even include assembly instructions.
Oh neat, i'll have to remember that. Those aint bad.
i run 15 as stygies with a manipulus, it allows a potential T1 charge with them, and if they fail it, they become a huge distraction carnifex that the opponnent HAS to deal with, they die more often than not, but that means my kataphrons/onagers/ballistarii dont get shot T1
This is one thing i was thinking about with the manipulus. Since he improves their movement by 1 and adds 1 to advance/charge rolls, that technically means the unit in question is moving +3" if he managed to keep up for the charge attempt correct?
This is one thing i was thinking about with the manipulus. Since he improves their movement by 1 and adds 1 to advance/charge rolls, that technically means the unit in question is moving +3" if he managed to keep up for the charge attempt correct?
+2" as you can't Advance and charge with anything in Admech. If you really want to Alpha strike then you can achieve 9" +5" in total - you Infiltrate the Drill and Manipulus, disembark Fulgurites with +3", move and charge with Manipulus' aura of bolster movement. If your opponent deployed at the edge of his zone in one of the long deployments, he gave you a gift of a very plausible charge to go off. And painful, 12 Fulgurites each Drill (as you can easily bring 2 Drill+Priest sets for most points ranges). That's definetely something to keep in mind, although...
Drill itself is not too beefy - it doesn't have the Canticles or invulnerable, and every point of rend hurts. Thus W10 is melting quick with all the anti-veh firepower people bring nowadays. If you've got a threat overload, Drill might survive not going first - otherwise you'll wish you DSed them.
Derp, right. Thats something thats probably gonna get me a few times since i mainly play orks and pretty much our entire codex can advance and charge, given the proper dude is around lol.
Thanks.
yeah, if you REALLY want a T1 charge, go with stygies dragoons. Admech has pretty much only decent units (the worse ones being the ruststalkers and corpuscarii) so youre free to build that list however you want. and as i said, even the threat pf getting a T2 charge with your fulgurites is a good thing, sacrificing units so others live is a sound strategy
VladimirHerzog wrote: yeah, if you REALLY want a T1 charge, go with stygies dragoons. Admech has pretty much only decent units (the worse ones being the ruststalkers and corpuscarii) so youre free to build that list however you want. and as i said, even the threat pf getting a T2 charge with your fulgurites is a good thing, sacrificing units so others live is a sound strategy
With Corpuscarii being so bad that Nick Nanavati included 2x10 of them in this AdMech list in the beginning of 2019... ;-)
VladimirHerzog wrote: yeah, if you REALLY want a T1 charge, go with stygies dragoons. Admech has pretty much only decent units (the worse ones being the ruststalkers and corpuscarii) so youre free to build that list however you want. and as i said, even the threat pf getting a T2 charge with your fulgurites is a good thing, sacrificing units so others live is a sound strategy
With Corpuscarii being so bad that Nick Nanavati included 2x10 of them in this AdMech list in the beginning of 2019... ;-)
in what tournament? this is news to me. still, i didnt say they were bad, i said they were one of the worse we have in the codex. i dont feel like the units are the main problems with admech, its more of a relic/WT problem.
Yoda79 wrote:last game Tau i filed 4 robots and 9 plasmaphrons besides the breachers.
Since i had manipulus and i was playing first my opponent saw he could not hide all riptides in the corner i was in range with 42" robots. He hide one and the rest remained in range he filed them agreesively in front.
Round one elimination volley on plasma and robots .Wrath of mars on robots. Used 2 robots to eliminate all drones with wrath of mars and rest of basic shooting . Rest robots on riptide. Then 2 plasma on remaining riptide and 7 on the other one. End of round one 2 riptides dead all drones dead .Snipers and sniper assasin took ethereal and a commander .Game over.
then breachers too over all the board infiltrators end the gam round 3 deep strike with wom on last group of deep strike force. GG. And i dont have to mention that against vehicles its even more dedlier cause 15+ breachers shoot 30 volley of rerolling all hits at 42" vs knights usually and every single one that pass its D6 damage.
Hydralic claw is d3 melee damage enough to take anything down.
atm i have 8 hydralic and 8 with out .
TEsting atm 9 plasmaphrons with flamers and infoskull sick.... i v started to eliminate hordes and deep striking forces like orcs easier im missing like 15-30 points to test them all in one list.
Yes. I mentioned a few pages back about how Manipulus is pretty awesome in the Tau matchup. Force them to come out and shoot me instead of turtling.
Oh. You run the Hydraulic instead of Arc Claw? How do the two compare? Is there an important advantage to Hydraulic Claw? I actually am not so sure about Breachers in melee in general, but clearly, they do something right. (As I said earlier, they don't seem to shoot or fight well, but they don't do it badly either. And they are very cheap for their stats.)
VladimirHerzog wrote: yeah, if you REALLY want a T1 charge, go with stygies dragoons. Admech has pretty much only decent units (the worse ones being the ruststalkers and corpuscarii) so youre free to build that list however you want. and as i said, even the threat pf getting a T2 charge with your fulgurites is a good thing, sacrificing units so others live is a sound strategy
With Corpuscarii being so bad that Nick Nanavati included 2x10 of them in this AdMech list in the beginning of 2019... ;-)
in what tournament? this is news to me. still, i didnt say they were bad, i said they were one of the worse we have in the codex. i dont feel like the units are the main problems with admech, its more of a relic/WT problem.
I wouldnt call them "worse" either. There's no better Gaunts or Boyz cleaners than 20 Corpuscarii DSed. They even do a decent job against Shining Spears with -hit stratagem applied due to pure amount of initial shots (although they really need rerolling 1s in shooting Canticle in such case).
Their usefulness is mostly limited to being DS nuke though - I'm trying to use them as an anticharge unit in Mars castle, but they are too expensive to be shot off the table, to fragile to stand, and their threat range is not enough to give them the initiative. If Manipulus bolstered all the units with +6" at least...
dadamowsky wrote: I wouldnt call them "worse" either. There's no better Gaunts or Boyz cleaners than 20 Corpuscarii DSed. They even do a decent job against Shining Spears with -hit stratagem applied due to pure amount of initial shots (although they really need rerolling 1s in shooting Canticle in such case).
Their usefulness is mostly limited to being DS nuke though - I'm trying to use them as an anticharge unit in Mars castle, but they are too expensive to be shot off the table, to fragile to stand, and their threat range is not enough to give them the initiative. If Manipulus bolstered all the units with +6" at least...
im curious as to what other unit you think are worse than corpus, i mentioned ruststalkers but i think most of our other units are better overall
dadamowsky wrote: I wouldnt call them "worse" either. There's no better Gaunts or Boyz cleaners than 20 Corpuscarii DSed. They even do a decent job against Shining Spears with -hit stratagem applied due to pure amount of initial shots (although they really need rerolling 1s in shooting Canticle in such case).
Their usefulness is mostly limited to being DS nuke though - I'm trying to use them as an anticharge unit in Mars castle, but they are too expensive to be shot off the table, to fragile to stand, and their threat range is not enough to give them the initiative. If Manipulus bolstered all the units with +6" at least...
im curious as to what other unit you think are worse than corpus, i mentioned ruststalkers but i think most of our other units are better overall
Neutron Onagers . Quite serious on this one - they whiff almost every time for me. Phosphor Onagers (if anyone actually remember they have this loadout at all). I'm on the fence with our Skitarii Troops - I can't seem to find them a niche outside of being overpriced slower Guardsman. If I try to run special weapons it's wasted points - they die, and do very little if anything at all. Apart from Transuranic, which are decent if there are LoS free lines avalaible. Enginseer - If there was anything else in the codex in place of this guy I'd swap him in an instance. Ruststalkers... quite a lot of nuking potential, due to being Skitarii and having more attacks, but they're still nowhere near as good as Fulgurites. Their Transonic Blades and Razor are a complete garbage though - idk what is the purpose of these weapons, as there's no scenario when Ruststalkers (even if picked up) would not use Cordclaws.
But the king of them all are Dragoons with Jezzail. I literary has never, ever, considered them in list building. For any purpose at all. The 63 points for a Heavy 2 sniper rifle with 30" and S5 no AP. Not even the Torsion Cannon can beat it.
Neutron Onagers . Quite serious on this one - they whiff almost every time for me. Phosphor Onagers (if anyone actually remember they have this loadout at all). I'm on the fence with our Skitarii Troops - I can't seem to find them a niche outside of being overpriced slower Guardsman. If I try to run special weapons it's wasted points - they die, and do very little if anything at all. Apart from Transuranic, which are decent if there are LoS free lines avalaible. Enginseer - If there was anything else in the codex in place of this guy I'd swap him in an instance. Ruststalkers... quite a lot of nuking potential, due to being Skitarii and having more attacks, but they're still nowhere near as good as Fulgurites. Their Transonic Blades and Razor are a complete garbage though - idk what is the purpose of these weapons, as there's no scenario when Ruststalkers (even if picked up) would not use Cordclaws.
But the king of them all are Dragoons with Jezzail. I literary has never, ever, considered them in list building. For any purpose at all. The 63 points for a Heavy 2 sniper rifle with 30" and S5 no AP. Not even the Torsion Cannon can beat it.
oh sure, there is some gak loadouts but that doesnt mean the unit is bad.
I agree that neutron laser really suffers from the "lascannon curse".
vanguards have a ton of firepower to clear out chaff and are really good supporting units for our CC units.
rangers are good backfield objective holder.
both our skitarii troops are even better when we take in acount their points cost.
enginseer is really just a tax but at least they have the same healing capabilities as all our other techpriests (and im quite fond of taking one with the solar flare to score easy linebreaker)
ruststalkers make nice diorama figurines i guess?
i completely forgot that jezzail dragoons were a thing, yeah thats bad.
Vineheart01 wrote: Are ruststalkers really that bad? I love their models but all i hear is badness around them. What about the infiltrator half of them?
the problem with the ruststalkers is that they need to walk to their target and are quite squishy T3 4+/6++ W2/3 is easily blasted away. To add to this, they have 0 ranged capabilities, with the infiltrators, even if you miss your charge after deepstriking them , you at least got a ton of small arms fire, ruststalkers dont have that option. Even when they do reach their target, you really only look for 6's to wound on your Chordclaws to deal lots of mortal wounds. Unless you go for ryza, there is no way to reroll wounds. they simply lack the versatility of infiltrators, they play best as a counterchage unit. but if you need a countercharge unit theres better choices (electro-priests)
When i started using the list i was also skeptic about the efficiency of some units.
ME as we ll as you have teted in the field most units in even spammed them.
As i test the list furter and further i have to make decisions since its v v point heavy to work and cp. Some things will not work differently.
a) There is little point room for more than 3 Robots. 3-4 is the key number usually 3.
b) the point taking breachers is to take lots of them. Thus making your list hordish troopish.
Why well the whole idea behind it and you ll figure more as you play it is to make the enemies take same bad decisions as you had to when facing lets say a full knight list.
And i dont wanna write block of texts i give a clear example.
Castellan shooting a group of 4 breachers. its wasted shot vs anything else we got. 90-120 points that will most likely have 5-6 invu 1-2+ armor save and 3 hp/ model. its infantry its bbj secure etc etc.
Breachers cant shoot an cant fight why?
as i said i use 2*4 stock and 2*4 hydralic. Dominus with them always.
Round one breachers shooting 2 shots at 36+6 + movemnt if need. 6" remain inside manipulus if need round one. Can move and shoot and they are better of vs vehicles.
so i have 16*2 shots 32 shots str 6 -2 d3 or d6 damage. what and where will it fail . 1-5 wounds on any infantry is d3 damage on knights 2 wounds d6 damage rerolling every single hit with Cawl. If you make bigger groups like 6-9 of them you can give +1 shooting from maniple so bs3 rerolling all hits from Cawl. where is the issue?
what was ad mech missing ? a good screen T5 3W 30 points with 1+/4+ if you need. what else do you need. Sure its not top shooter but what you missing is Tank shooters and you definetly get good ones with breachers. and on top of that.
Melee breachers are 3 att each reroll all hits in melee as long as Dominus is nearby.
With hydralic you get 4 breachers 12 att hitting on 5s rerolling all but D3 damage str 10+.
Again you missing the point hen you have reroll all you depend on high str high damage so better wound options. And you ll need them vs vehicles where their job is.
If hordes charge you any screen that has enough bodies to hold them then a mech will fall back and obliterate. But when you invest in Robots plasma grav etc. you missing the antitank .If you take onagers you can kill nothing in melee. Effectively making ad mech paper gunline.
Breachers are effective vs vehicles. Even with bs5 damge d3 d6 on shooting is enough to kill T8 tanks knights etc. and tough enough to stand their ground.
IF you use 2 cp aquisition at all costs then you suddenly have a unit with 1+ save 4+ invu 12+ wounds +1 att so it will be 16 att etc.
For the non hydralic i dont have points and i just have to let them like that. + some armies dont need the extra antivehicle or i can split forces and dont have rerolls or use the reroll ones and +1 str canticles.
So why not i got a force that vaporizes anything anything effectively of the board with top range and finally cheap breachers to screen and support all i need. Ad mech for me atm is one of the armies able to take Castellan round one down besides other castellans.
And doing so with infantry units that is really hard for enemies to counter easily.
Sure you ll say if you face 3 Crusaders list etc. You cant win them all but i tell you is your hard match ups like the one i played vs 7 fliers in the last tour is most likely who will go first.
And that is v v good if you consider most likely you would loose with most armies vs
Guard castellan
eldarishsss Fliers
Orks etc...
So vs top tier armeis we alreay know now you go a pretty good chance as they have. and you will till the last round.
Infiltrators. Deep strike free 2 wounds each 5 shots each if the game goes badly it means you ll have 2 cp to use wom on them and so far i ave killed many chars or hostile deep strikes with it. So yes Mars take infiltrators for me 5-8 one unit perfect.
Now important to note. WT relics etc you can decide on enemy basis so usually you need to decide in each game
a) Extra healing and New warlord trait extra for reviving kataprhons. usually vs lots of damage 1 weapons
b) 6s take back cp if no need rest.
c) assasin
those are serious different options / game.
Now variations exist. i play with snipers and infiltrators. I see the list shines more full kataphrons. I dont have more than 24 so i use 24. i see lists with 30+ i dont have and i want infiltrators assasins etc.
in the small list 2 battalions i use 4 robots 9 plasma + rest 13cp
in the big one 3 battalions i use 3 Robots 10 plasma +rest 18cp.
There is still lot of testing and list optimizig.
i started 7th in my first tourney ended up second in the last and from that point on i have not lost yet.
i will test more unf i dont have time since my job enters high season to go abroad atm and test in a bigger event.
any experience or feedback welcomed
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah, i noticed that, but at 143pts for 10 with blades doesnt sound too bad.
Then again ork mentality is probably seeping into my judgement again.
...
...lemmie guess the blades are actually the bad option lol.
edit: im still deciding what to buy basically. I already have 5 ruststalkers because of killteam box.
orks can actually charge turn 1 reliably, not ruststalkers, theres the main difference. The razors are the good pick, but just because they include chordclaws.
the strength is irrelevant since youre fishing for mortal wounds on 6's and with AP 0, youre not a threat to most other units
Welp glad i didnt paint those 5 ruststalkers yet lol i better snip their blades off...but they look so much cooler!!
Also i was more going to use them as a deterrent than a downfield unit. My locals love deepstriking squads of assault marines or other such quick units behind enemy lines to try and snipe things like my SAG mek, objective holding grots, or try to pincer my other models.
As orks i have answers to such tactics, as admech i kinda felt my only true answer was too expensive to leave on my half of the board (priests), relying on a ball of rangers gunning them down anyway., or too big to keep concealed to their long guns dont pulverize it first (robots, which technically fall under the expensive part too)
Yoda79 wrote: When i started using the list i was also skeptic about the efficiency of some units.
ME as we ll as you have teted in the field most units in even spammed them.
As i test the list furter and further i have to make decisions since its v v point heavy to work and cp. Some things will not work differently.
a) There is little point room for more than 3 Robots. 3-4 is the key number usually 3.
b) the point taking breachers is to take lots of them. Thus making your list hordish troopish.
Why well the whole idea behind it and you ll figure more as you play it is to make the enemies take same bad decisions as you had to when facing lets say a full knight list.
And i dont wanna write block of texts i give a clear example.
Castellan shooting a group of 4 breachers. its wasted shot vs anything else we got. 90-120 points that will most likely have 5-6 invu 1-2+ armor save and 3 hp/ model. its infantry its bbj secure etc etc.
Breachers cant shoot an cant fight why?
as i said i use 2*4 stock and 2*4 hydralic. Dominus with them always.
Round one breachers shooting 2 shots at 36+6 + movemnt if need. 6" remain inside manipulus if need round one. Can move and shoot and they are better of vs vehicles.
so i have 16*2 shots 32 shots str 6 -2 d3 or d6 damage. what and where will it fail . 1-5 wounds on any infantry is d3 damage on knights 2 wounds d6 damage rerolling every single hit with Cawl. If you make bigger groups like 6-9 of them you can give +1 shooting from maniple so bs3 rerolling all hits from Cawl. where is the issue?
what was ad mech missing ? a good screen T5 3W 30 points with 1+/4+ if you need. what else do you need. Sure its not top shooter but what you missing is Tank shooters and you definetly get good ones with breachers. and on top of that.
Melee breachers are 3 att each reroll all hits in melee as long as Dominus is nearby.
With hydralic you get 4 breachers 12 att hitting on 5s rerolling all but D3 damage str 10+.
Again you missing the point hen you have reroll all you depend on high str high damage so better wound options. And you ll need them vs vehicles where their job is.
If hordes charge you any screen that has enough bodies to hold them then a mech will fall back and obliterate. But when you invest in Robots plasma grav etc. you missing the antitank .If you take onagers you can kill nothing in melee. Effectively making ad mech paper gunline.
Breachers are effective vs vehicles. Even with bs5 damge d3 d6 on shooting is enough to kill T8 tanks knights etc. and tough enough to stand their ground.
IF you use 2 cp aquisition at all costs then you suddenly have a unit with 1+ save 4+ invu 12+ wounds +1 att so it will be 16 att etc.
For the non hydralic i dont have points and i just have to let them like that. + some armies dont need the extra antivehicle or i can split forces and dont have rerolls or use the reroll ones and +1 str canticles.
So why not i got a force that vaporizes anything anything effectively of the board with top range and finally cheap breachers to screen and support all i need. Ad mech for me atm is one of the armies able to take Castellan round one down besides other castellans.
And doing so with infantry units that is really hard for enemies to counter easily.
Sure you ll say if you face 3 Crusaders list etc. You cant win them all but i tell you is your hard match ups like the one i played vs 7 fliers in the last tour is most likely who will go first.
And that is v v good if you consider most likely you would loose with most armies vs
Guard castellan
eldarishsss Fliers
Orks etc...
So vs top tier armeis we alreay know now you go a pretty good chance as they have. and you will till the last round.
Infiltrators. Deep strike free 2 wounds each 5 shots each if the game goes badly it means you ll have 2 cp to use wom on them and so far i ave killed many chars or hostile deep strikes with it. So yes Mars take infiltrators for me 5-8 one unit perfect.
Now important to note. WT relics etc you can decide on enemy basis so usually you need to decide in each game
a) Extra healing and New warlord trait extra for reviving kataprhons. usually vs lots of damage 1 weapons
b) 6s take back cp if no need rest.
c) assasin
those are serious different options / game.
Now variations exist. i play with snipers and infiltrators. I see the list shines more full kataphrons. I dont have more than 24 so i use 24. i see lists with 30+ i dont have and i want infiltrators assasins etc.
in the small list 2 battalions i use 4 robots 9 plasma + rest 13cp
in the big one 3 battalions i use 3 Robots 10 plasma +rest 18cp.
There is still lot of testing and list optimizig.
i started 7th in my first tourney ended up second in the last and from that point on i have not lost yet.
i will test more unf i dont have time since my job enters high season to go abroad atm and test in a bigger event.
any experience or feedback welcomed
Yoda,
I’m glad your back posting regularly. I love your enthusiasm and the updates on breachers are good to hear. As someone who is yet to purchase any kataphron models it’s encouraging that they are proving a valuable purchase
What’s your latest list? I could gather bits and pieces from the above but there are gaps in my understanding of what your bringing to the table
Vineheart01 wrote: Welp glad i didnt paint those 5 ruststalkers yet lol i better snip their blades off...but they look so much cooler!!
Also i was more going to use them as a deterrent than a downfield unit. My locals love deepstriking squads of assault marines or other such quick units behind enemy lines to try and snipe things like my SAG mek, objective holding grots, or try to pincer my other models.
As orks i have answers to such tactics, as admech i kinda felt my only true answer was too expensive to leave on my half of the board (priests), relying on a ball of rangers gunning them down anyway., or too big to keep concealed to their long guns dont pulverize it first (robots, which technically fall under the expensive part too)
if youre getting caught by stuff deepstriking behind you, you should work on your screening, make sure there is no spot behind your lines that a unit could deepstrike in. enginseers work wonders for this, since they dont provide much, make sure to have spread out as much to makes sure the corners of the battlemat are safe. if they ever need to heal something, they can advance toward it
as for the front of your army, make sure that your units are at least 5" from your gunline, spreading our is really important, that way assault units can't consolidate into your gunline, they have to charge again. dont be afraid to send your dominus / manipulus / cawl to fend off the assaulting units (try to get a heroic intervention so they cannot get shot) since they have pretty decent melee capabilitied (sure a smash captain will rip through them but against hordes they can clear a few)
dadamowsky wrote: I wouldnt call them "worse" either. There's no better Gaunts or Boyz cleaners than 20 Corpuscarii DSed. They even do a decent job against Shining Spears with -hit stratagem applied due to pure amount of initial shots (although they really need rerolling 1s in shooting Canticle in such case).
Their usefulness is mostly limited to being DS nuke though - I'm trying to use them as an anticharge unit in Mars castle, but they are too expensive to be shot off the table, to fragile to stand, and their threat range is not enough to give them the initiative. If Manipulus bolstered all the units with +6" at least...
im curious as to what other unit you think are worse than corpus, i mentioned ruststalkers but i think most of our other units are better overall
Neutron Onagers . Quite serious on this one - they whiff almost every time for me. Phosphor Onagers (if anyone actually remember they have this loadout at all). I'm on the fence with our Skitarii Troops - I can't seem to find them a niche outside of being overpriced slower Guardsman. If I try to run special weapons it's wasted points - they die, and do very little if anything at all. Apart from Transuranic, which are decent if there are LoS free lines avalaible. Enginseer - If there was anything else in the codex in place of this guy I'd swap him in an instance. Ruststalkers... quite a lot of nuking potential, due to being Skitarii and having more attacks, but they're still nowhere near as good as Fulgurites. Their Transonic Blades and Razor are a complete garbage though - idk what is the purpose of these weapons, as there's no scenario when Ruststalkers (even if picked up) would not use Cordclaws.
But the king of them all are Dragoons with Jezzail. I literary has never, ever, considered them in list building. For any purpose at all. The 63 points for a Heavy 2 sniper rifle with 30" and S5 no AP. Not even the Torsion Cannon can beat it.
theyre not horrible honestly, they have good stats, the problem is that theyre hindered by the fact that you cant put them in squads
Thats not a problem with the datasmith but rather the stratagem to instantly change protocols.
In my list of wanted rules I removed the stratagem, made robots a bit cheaper, fistelans get +1 to ws and the datasmith now changes the protocols instantly on a 4+, on a 1+ without fails it changes next turn.
dadamowsky wrote: I wouldnt call them "worse" either. There's no better Gaunts or Boyz cleaners than 20 Corpuscarii DSed. They even do a decent job against Shining Spears with -hit stratagem applied due to pure amount of initial shots (although they really need rerolling 1s in shooting Canticle in such case).
Their usefulness is mostly limited to being DS nuke though - I'm trying to use them as an anticharge unit in Mars castle, but they are too expensive to be shot off the table, to fragile to stand, and their threat range is not enough to give them the initiative. If Manipulus bolstered all the units with +6" at least...
im curious as to what other unit you think are worse than corpus, i mentioned ruststalkers but i think most of our other units are better overall
Neutron Onagers . Quite serious on this one - they whiff almost every time for me. Phosphor Onagers (if anyone actually remember they have this loadout at all). I'm on the fence with our Skitarii Troops - I can't seem to find them a niche outside of being overpriced slower Guardsman. If I try to run special weapons it's wasted points - they die, and do very little if anything at all. Apart from Transuranic, which are decent if there are LoS free lines avalaible. Enginseer - If there was anything else in the codex in place of this guy I'd swap him in an instance. Ruststalkers... quite a lot of nuking potential, due to being Skitarii and having more attacks, but they're still nowhere near as good as Fulgurites. Their Transonic Blades and Razor are a complete garbage though - idk what is the purpose of these weapons, as there's no scenario when Ruststalkers (even if picked up) would not use Cordclaws.
But the king of them all are Dragoons with Jezzail. I literary has never, ever, considered them in list building. For any purpose at all. The 63 points for a Heavy 2 sniper rifle with 30" and S5 no AP. Not even the Torsion Cannon can beat it.
You are forgetting the best one: Datasmith :p
Since Datasmiths are required to use the +3" charge stratagem they at least have a purpose. Their statline is not bad either - it's just... they are so under the radar I forgot they exist
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 440pts] . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
++ Total: [156 PL, 12CP, 1915pts] ++
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can understand the details i v posted enough times.
This is brutal and needs to be handled with care. watch your cp its important and how you use them.
Depending on enemy you can use.
your extra cp to get as many as you believe you need 5+ invu.
You can increase or decrease the 4 man breacher teams to play with one bigger unit that you can always give the 5+ testing that atm.
You can spend extra cp on extra warlord trait according to enemy.
Dont forget that assasins got some cool stratagems and all prodice with cp 2 cp if they kill a char.
Enjoy and practise you ll need it.
Atm i m testing more smaller units even two units of plasma instead of one. to make a triple battalion. more or less same units . Enjoy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: For filling out the rest of the points, you could max the Ranger squad and add another Arq. Then use the Strategem to increase their hit rate.
Yoda79 wrote: When i started using the list i was also skeptic about the efficiency of some units.
ME as we ll as you have teted in the field most units in even spammed them.
As i test the list furter and further i have to make decisions since its v v point heavy to work and cp. Some things will not work differently.
a) There is little point room for more than 3 Robots. 3-4 is the key number usually 3.
b) the point taking breachers is to take lots of them. Thus making your list hordish troopish.
Why well the whole idea behind it and you ll figure more as you play it is to make the enemies take same bad decisions as you had to when facing lets say a full knight list.
And i dont wanna write block of texts i give a clear example.
Castellan shooting a group of 4 breachers. its wasted shot vs anything else we got. 90-120 points that will most likely have 5-6 invu 1-2+ armor save and 3 hp/ model. its infantry its bbj secure etc etc.
Breachers cant shoot an cant fight why?
as i said i use 2*4 stock and 2*4 hydralic. Dominus with them always.
Round one breachers shooting 2 shots at 36+6 + movemnt if need. 6" remain inside manipulus if need round one. Can move and shoot and they are better of vs vehicles.
so i have 16*2 shots 32 shots str 6 -2 d3 or d6 damage. what and where will it fail . 1-5 wounds on any infantry is d3 damage on knights 2 wounds d6 damage rerolling every single hit with Cawl. If you make bigger groups like 6-9 of them you can give +1 shooting from maniple so bs3 rerolling all hits from Cawl. where is the issue?
what was ad mech missing ? a good screen T5 3W 30 points with 1+/4+ if you need. what else do you need. Sure its not top shooter but what you missing is Tank shooters and you definetly get good ones with breachers. and on top of that.
Melee breachers are 3 att each reroll all hits in melee as long as Dominus is nearby.
With hydralic you get 4 breachers 12 att hitting on 5s rerolling all but D3 damage str 10+.
Again you missing the point hen you have reroll all you depend on high str high damage so better wound options. And you ll need them vs vehicles where their job is.
If hordes charge you any screen that has enough bodies to hold them then a mech will fall back and obliterate. But when you invest in Robots plasma grav etc. you missing the antitank .If you take onagers you can kill nothing in melee. Effectively making ad mech paper gunline.
Breachers are effective vs vehicles. Even with bs5 damge d3 d6 on shooting is enough to kill T8 tanks knights etc. and tough enough to stand their ground.
IF you use 2 cp aquisition at all costs then you suddenly have a unit with 1+ save 4+ invu 12+ wounds +1 att so it will be 16 att etc.
For the non hydralic i dont have points and i just have to let them like that. + some armies dont need the extra antivehicle or i can split forces and dont have rerolls or use the reroll ones and +1 str canticles.
So why not i got a force that vaporizes anything anything effectively of the board with top range and finally cheap breachers to screen and support all i need. Ad mech for me atm is one of the armies able to take Castellan round one down besides other castellans.
And doing so with infantry units that is really hard for enemies to counter easily.
Sure you ll say if you face 3 Crusaders list etc. You cant win them all but i tell you is your hard match ups like the one i played vs 7 fliers in the last tour is most likely who will go first.
And that is v v good if you consider most likely you would loose with most armies vs
Guard castellan
eldarishsss Fliers
Orks etc...
So vs top tier armeis we alreay know now you go a pretty good chance as they have. and you will till the last round.
Infiltrators. Deep strike free 2 wounds each 5 shots each if the game goes badly it means you ll have 2 cp to use wom on them and so far i ave killed many chars or hostile deep strikes with it. So yes Mars take infiltrators for me 5-8 one unit perfect.
Now important to note. WT relics etc you can decide on enemy basis so usually you need to decide in each game
a) Extra healing and New warlord trait extra for reviving kataprhons. usually vs lots of damage 1 weapons
b) 6s take back cp if no need rest.
c) assasin
those are serious different options / game.
Now variations exist. i play with snipers and infiltrators. I see the list shines more full kataphrons. I dont have more than 24 so i use 24. i see lists with 30+ i dont have and i want infiltrators assasins etc.
in the small list 2 battalions i use 4 robots 9 plasma + rest 13cp
in the big one 3 battalions i use 3 Robots 10 plasma +rest 18cp.
There is still lot of testing and list optimizig.
i started 7th in my first tourney ended up second in the last and from that point on i have not lost yet.
i will test more unf i dont have time since my job enters high season to go abroad atm and test in a bigger event.
any experience or feedback welcomed
How are your breachers re-rolling all their fight phase attacks? Best i've seen is Prime Hermeticon WT which is re-roll failed hits. Unless thats what you meant?
Vineheart01 wrote: Are the two forgeworld unit options any good? Both of them feel really lackluster to me.
i've seen people praise the hoplites in drills but ive never seen them shine all that much, as for the peltasts, i quite like that they get multi-use weapons but it feels like theyve got something missing, at the minimum, access to the dogmas would be nice.
i dont use FW units like drills peltasts etc. Hoplites i would love to use but i play ETC.
Prime hermeticon yes reroll all miss hits melee. All hit first rounds from Cawl in shooting.
85 points for the assasin.
So far i used either 2*6*2 rangers with transonic. or 1*10*3 transonic.But after playing some games i made a decision and left only one group since i dont have points for more and usually i take the sniper assasin so its enough .
I also played with a unit of vanguard. And i might do it again. Either remove one Destroyer or make the units of breachers as i had them 3*5 and more sniper and vanguard. I used vanguard for their -1T in cc and i have to say when i did it on a knight was v v good for my non hydralic breachers.
The problem is 5 vanguard almost never almost like 1/5 games particiapte stay alive etc etc. So this build this list seems focused on a specific plan. Its no big deal to make the list with 10 man rangers 3 snipers and 4-5 vanguards reducing the breachers to 5 man.
As i said im still testing lists details as well a a list with 3 battalions and even more b split breachers.
I also played with a unit of vanguard. And i might do it again. Either remove one Destroyer or make the units of breachers as i had them 3*5 and more sniper and vanguard. I used vanguard for their -1T in cc and i have to say when i did it on a knight was v v good for my non hydralic breachers.
Vanguards' -1T works only on the "enemy units, other than VEHICLES".
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: For filling out the rest of the points, you could max the Ranger squad and add another Arq. Then use the Strategem to increase their hit rate.
He wants to have spare 85p for assasin
I honestly thought that was a spare 85 points outside the spare assassin. My mistake.
I also played with a unit of vanguard. And i might do it again. Either remove one Destroyer or make the units of breachers as i had them 3*5 and more sniper and vanguard. I used vanguard for their -1T in cc and i have to say when i did it on a knight was v v good for my non hydralic breachers.
Vanguards' -1T works only on the "enemy units, other than VEHICLES".
True and good I removed I since not only I played it wrong but tbh I have not managed to utilize it properly. So better of . Can't take 10 man vangards to get one group in combat and in the end for a semi result I tried but as with most cc units n ad mech their are usually slow or out of position. And beside breachers if you are going to take troops you will need sygies graia etc. So far for me with Mars no small troop srvives either way .
Wait. There are 16 Breachers and 9 Destroyers in your army? :O
Do you find that the Breachers make their points back with just shooting? How important is it that they close with your opponent? (The fact that I am having a hard time understanding how to use them is good. It means most opponents will have no idea at all what to expect.)
Love dragoons but I believe lists must have purpose thus giving advantage to unit abilities .
I play dragoons only as stygies with a knight warden or crusader onagers etc. Using the -1 to get hit on troops and dragoons but it's not winning everything more of fluffier games. Even 6 dragoons -2 hit die easy when you face real melee or serious players in shooting.
Just for comparison reason for 60 points not 68 I take 2 breachers . In my Mars list. Mars combo Robots and destroyers always looking for screen.
For 30-60 point you get two breachers with 6W so same T5 almost comparable and ofc 4 arc shots and 6-8 melee att.
The big difference is breachers usually on 2+ armor 4-5 invu while dragoons if enemy comes closer or has ignore -1 they die.
Sure I like them but e talking about utility we talking about list building plans etc.
Breachers work super in a full infantry list. Almost perfect. And don't forget they tend to push forward can but range or movement from manipulus and can use the aquisition at all costs superb! Can use viguous warlord trait to replenish their ranks as destroyers can you can use dominus with then with hermeticon for rerroling melee miss? Also +1 on shooting . You can use infoslave on destroyers with ppasma and flamers manipulus gives 11" flamer . Cognis flamer overwatch . Etc etc. All units are obj sec? All can shoot and fight it's practically
A classic Cawl star robots destroyers with finally good screen? Assassin's flavor for all that you need.
Ofc there is a list with 3 battalions one guard for 18 cp working better with 12-15 breachers and some rangers . But I wanted to play pure ad mech for various reasons . I know with guard can go even higher and you need the cp but I LL remain ad mech as possible.
I'm also testing with 3 battalions the cp are important and we need them .
Dragoons, if you do use them, are to be used as a distraction for something with similar toughness and weaknesses. They can be countered pretty hard by Orks, Eldar, and even SW.
Suzuteo wrote: Dragoons, if you do use them, are to be used as a distraction for something with similar toughness and weaknesses. They can be countered pretty hard by Orks, Eldar, and even SW.
I'm testing Dragoons with Culexus and results are promising. Culexus' fight last solves the one problem Dragoons had - they have to hit first. One of the matches was quite amusing as the 90 Boyz were running away from the 2x4 Dragoons and 2 Culexus (one per each Dragoon unit), and giving my Kastelans a room to breathe. The tricky part are the maneuvers, as Culexus cant keep up with the Dragoons at full speed (not without the 4+ Advance roll at least), and he can't heroically intervene after DS.
I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.
dadamowsky wrote: I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.
It is due to the detachment rules.
your detachments are still battleforged with the "Adeptus Mechanicus" keyword, however you have the <Forge World> keywords "Mars" "Graia" etc. within that detachment as well. as you do not have all of the same <Forge World> keyword creating your detachment it states on the dogma page that you do not gain a dogma for that detachment.
Stratagems only require keywords like "Graia Infantry" to affect units. all adeptus mechanicus stratagems are unlocked if you take any AdMech detachments (from memory, it should say this above the stratagems somewhere). meaning you can use any stratagem if you have the right keywords.
dadamowsky wrote: I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.
Its not in the codex, its in one of the million different sources for rules that GW released, im sad to say that i couldnt find the original source and that i have to point you to 1d4chan (ughh) https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics(8E)#Mix_and_Match_Detachments
dadamowsky wrote: I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.
Its not in the codex, its in one of the million different sources for rules that GW released, im sad to say that i couldnt find the original source and that i have to point you to 1d4chan (ughh) https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics(8E)#Mix_and_Match_Detachments
With a help on FB but I found the answer - it's not written directly in the codex, however the Forgeworld dogmas rule on p.94 claim a dogmato be a "bonus" you receive when all the units in the detachment share the same keyword. So, by default, your army is expected (or allowed) to run in a <mixed> state.
dadamowsky wrote: I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.
Its not in the codex, its in one of the million different sources for rules that GW released, im sad to say that i couldnt find the original source and that i have to point you to 1d4chan (ughh) https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics(8E)#Mix_and_Match_Detachments
With a help on FB but I found the answer - it's not written directly in the codex, however the Forgeworld dogmas rule on p.94 claim a dogmato be a "bonus" you receive when all the units in the detachment share the same keyword. So, by default, your army is expected (or allowed) to run in a <mixed> state.
yeah thats the explanation.
had someone argue that this wasnt allowed because <keywords> are picked for each detachments. in fact they are picked for each unit so you can "soup" in a monodex army.
0XFallen wrote: Does a dragoon get +3" to movement with the manipulus and the add 2 dice to advance stratagem?
Yes but...
1. Manipulus adds 1" to move, 1" to advance and 1" to charge
2. Dragoons can use Dunestriders
3. HOWEVER there's absolutely no way to advance and charge with Dragoons. So in reality Manipulus can add up to 2"; and to use Dunestrider, Dragoons would have to give up charging this turn
dadamowsky wrote: I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.
It is due to the detachment rules.
your detachments are still battleforged with the "Adeptus Mechanicus" keyword, however you have the <Forge World> keywords "Mars" "Graia" etc. within that detachment as well. as you do not have all of the same <Forge World> keyword creating your detachment it states on the dogma page that you do not gain a dogma for that detachment.
Stratagems only require keywords like "Graia Infantry" to affect units. all adeptus mechanicus stratagems are unlocked if you take any AdMech detachments (from memory, it should say this above the stratagems somewhere). meaning you can use any stratagem if you have the right keywords.
Does this mean we can now use an Auxilliary Detachment of Mars Infiltrators for Wrath of Mars? Aux Detach does not strip a unit of its keyword, and the strategems should be unlocked by the rest of your army being Battle Forged anyway.
I broswed over 200 pages prior to this and some people were arguing you could, others says you could not due to the wording at the top of the Stratagems page. From what I understand you cannot unlock stratagems if your army only included Aux Detachments, so for example an Aux Detachment of Guardsman with no corresponding BattleForged AstraM full detachments.
Vineheart01 wrote: Are ruststalkers really that bad? I love their models but all i hear is badness around them. What about the infiltrator half of them?
the problem with the ruststalkers is that they need to walk to their target and are quite squishy T3 4+/6++ W2/3 is easily blasted away. To add to this, they have 0 ranged capabilities, with the infiltrators, even if you miss your charge after deepstriking them , you at least got a ton of small arms fire, ruststalkers dont have that option. Even when they do reach their target, you really only look for 6's to wound on your Chordclaws to deal lots of mortal wounds. Unless you go for ryza, there is no way to reroll wounds. they simply lack the versatility of infiltrators, they play best as a counterchage unit. but if you need a countercharge unit theres better choices (electro-priests)
I was looking again at Rustalkers. They can easily get and make use of 3+ save whereas Shroudpsalm is useless for Priests. For less points you get double the wounds (points per wound < vanguard) an effective 3+ save and 8 inch movement. The range of mortal wounds they can put out is pretty large, I've seen them down Mortarion in counter charge.
Vineheart01 wrote: Are ruststalkers really that bad? I love their models but all i hear is badness around them. What about the infiltrator half of them?
the problem with the ruststalkers is that they need to walk to their target and are quite squishy T3 4+/6++ W2/3 is easily blasted away. To add to this, they have 0 ranged capabilities, with the infiltrators, even if you miss your charge after deepstriking them , you at least got a ton of small arms fire, ruststalkers dont have that option. Even when they do reach their target, you really only look for 6's to wound on your Chordclaws to deal lots of mortal wounds. Unless you go for ryza, there is no way to reroll wounds. they simply lack the versatility of infiltrators, they play best as a counterchage unit. but if you need a countercharge unit theres better choices (electro-priests)
I was looking again at Rustalkers. They can easily get and make use of 3+ save whereas Shroudpsalm is useless for Priests. For less points you get double the wounds (points per wound < vanguard) an effective 3+ save and 8 inch movement. The range of mortal wounds they can put out is pretty large, I've seen them down Mortarion in counter charge.
Except multiwound weapons are handed out like candy, they dont generate CP, no objective secured and still have LD issues. Priests are slower but have way more output and potential survivability and better used as a shock force with lucius/stygies/drills
dadamowsky wrote: I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.
It is due to the detachment rules.
your detachments are still battleforged with the "Adeptus Mechanicus" keyword, however you have the <Forge World> keywords "Mars" "Graia" etc. within that detachment as well. as you do not have all of the same <Forge World> keyword creating your detachment it states on the dogma page that you do not gain a dogma for that detachment.
Stratagems only require keywords like "Graia Infantry" to affect units. all adeptus mechanicus stratagems are unlocked if you take any AdMech detachments (from memory, it should say this above the stratagems somewhere). meaning you can use any stratagem if you have the right keywords.
Does this mean we can now use an Auxilliary Detachment of Mars Infiltrators for Wrath of Mars? Aux Detach does not strip a unit of its keyword, and the strategems should be unlocked by the rest of your army being Battle Forged anyway.
I broswed over 200 pages prior to this and some people were arguing you could, others says you could not due to the wording at the top of the Stratagems page. From what I understand you cannot unlock stratagems if your army only included Aux Detachments, so for example an Aux Detachment of Guardsman with no corresponding BattleForged AstraM full detachments.
Vineheart01 wrote: Are ruststalkers really that bad? I love their models but all i hear is badness around them. What about the infiltrator half of them?
the problem with the ruststalkers is that they need to walk to their target and are quite squishy T3 4+/6++ W2/3 is easily blasted away. To add to this, they have 0 ranged capabilities, with the infiltrators, even if you miss your charge after deepstriking them , you at least got a ton of small arms fire, ruststalkers dont have that option. Even when they do reach their target, you really only look for 6's to wound on your Chordclaws to deal lots of mortal wounds. Unless you go for ryza, there is no way to reroll wounds. they simply lack the versatility of infiltrators, they play best as a counterchage unit. but if you need a countercharge unit theres better choices (electro-priests)
I was looking again at Rustalkers. They can easily get and make use of 3+ save whereas Shroudpsalm is useless for Priests. For less points you get double the wounds (points per wound < vanguard) an effective 3+ save and 8 inch movement. The range of mortal wounds they can put out is pretty large, I've seen them down Mortarion in counter charge.
you can mix forge worlds in any detachment, you dont have to take an Aux detachment for it to work.
sure, ruststalkers have a potential output thats decent, the problem is that even with 2 wounds, they are squishy as hell, fulgurites can easily get a 3++ (or 2++) for the whole game. having smaller bases is also good for the fulgurites since it means they can consolidate/pile in deeper in the enemy ranks once they get in combat. ruststalkers are also 100% chordclaw dependent. The priests having a -2ap to their non 6 wounds mean that some damage will go through. The chordclaw is basically a worse version of the electroleech staves in all aspects (less Strength, and AP, same damage output potential) with fulgurites you get 2 attacks per model that are Chordclaw ++ while with ruststalkers you are stuck with the razor for 2 of your 3 attacks
I tried Ruststalkers in a Drill and... while they can nuke a lot harder than Fulgurites, they literary die the very next turn. 3+ is nothing on a T3 model - you will eat up way to many wounds to save the unit. Heck, Fulgurites even with 3++ melts aways under the weight of dice.
dadamowsky wrote: I tried Ruststalkers in a Drill and... while they can nuke a lot harder than Fulgurites, they literary die the very next turn. 3+ is nothing on a T3 model - you will eat up way to many wounds to save the unit. Heck, Fulgurites even with 3++ melts aways under the weight of dice.
The fulgurites have a bigger max damage output (6MW vs 5MW) and on average will deal more damage because they have decent strength and AP. Ruststalkers really need something to help them because they are not really useable at the moment
Thanks for the feedback. I know that you can mix any forgeworld in a detachment. The reason I want the Mars Infilatrators in an Aux is that I want the rest of the army to gain the benefit of -1 to hit Stygies. If I mix, I won't get this. So the Infiltrators *need* to be in another detach. So can I still play WoM on them?
Thanks for the feedback. I know that you can mix any forgeworld in a detachment. The reason I want the Mars Infilatrators in an Aux is that I want the rest of the army to gain the benefit of -1 to hit Stygies. If I mix, I won't get this. So the Infiltrators *need* to be in another detach. So can I still play WoM on them?
Either way you need two battalions cp s to actually perform a decent plan you can make one Mars other stygies . Still fluffy. Mono Mars atm only one performing above friendlies so far. For me
Yoda79 wrote: Either way you need two battalions cp s to actually perform a decent plan you can make one Mars other stygies . Still fluffy. Mono Mars atm only one performing above friendlies so far. For me
for me I am leaning towards two battalions, 1 with most of my list in it (usually run as ryza/stygies) and 1 mixed with 2x enginseers (same forgeworld as battalion 1), 3x 5 vanguard no upgrades with Graia for deny purposes, and occasionally use this to put the other odd unit in as well, e.g. WoM Infiltrators or Ryzaphrons (if running Battalion 1 as stygies for example).
Suzuteo wrote: Dragoons, if you do use them, are to be used as a distraction for something with similar toughness and weaknesses. They can be countered pretty hard by Orks, Eldar, and even SW.
I'm testing Dragoons with Culexus and results are promising. Culexus' fight last solves the one problem Dragoons had - they have to hit first. One of the matches was quite amusing as the 90 Boyz were running away from the 2x4 Dragoons and 2 Culexus (one per each Dragoon unit), and giving my Kastelans a room to breathe. The tricky part are the maneuvers, as Culexus cant keep up with the Dragoons at full speed (not without the 4+ Advance roll at least), and he can't heroically intervene after DS.
I'm looking for where this Culexus fight last rule is and I can't find it, can anyone help me out here?
Suzuteo wrote: Dragoons, if you do use them, are to be used as a distraction for something with similar toughness and weaknesses. They can be countered pretty hard by Orks, Eldar, and even SW.
I'm testing Dragoons with Culexus and results are promising. Culexus' fight last solves the one problem Dragoons had - they have to hit first. One of the matches was quite amusing as the 90 Boyz were running away from the 2x4 Dragoons and 2 Culexus (one per each Dragoon unit), and giving my Kastelans a room to breathe. The tricky part are the maneuvers, as Culexus cant keep up with the Dragoons at full speed (not without the 4+ Advance roll at least), and he can't heroically intervene after DS.
I'm looking for where this Culexus fight last rule is and I can't find it, can anyone help me out here?
2cp Soul Horror stratagem, causes any enemy units within 3" of Culexus to fight last, even if they charged. Also ignores other abilities that allow enemies to fight first.
If I use Infoskull stratagem on my ryzaphrons am I allowed to also use the Plasma Specialist stratagem?
Also do I benefit from a TPD´s reroll 1´s or from the canticle that allowes rerolls of 1?
If I use Infoskull stratagem on my ryzaphrons am I allowed to also use the Plasma Specialist stratagem?
Also do I benefit from a TPD´s reroll 1´s or from the canticle that allowes rerolls of 1?
Anything that you would or could use in the shooting phase you can use when they 'shoot as if it were the shooting phase'
If I use Infoskull stratagem on my ryzaphrons am I allowed to also use the Plasma Specialist stratagem?
Also do I benefit from a TPD´s reroll 1´s or from the canticle that allowes rerolls of 1?
You sure can, and its an amazing feeling when you can use it with ryzaphrons, blowing up basically anything that came out of deepstrike
) and they can only every stack 1 unit to the -3, usually i see people do 2 units at -2 instead. Shining Spears with all the bells and whistles can be a problem but his putting all his resources into that unit.
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