0XFallen wrote: Can a freeblade be questor mechanicus?
And if I not make him a Freeblade, does he count as having a household alone while not getting the benefits?
Yes. I believe Freeblade overrides the House, not the allegiance. Many Knights actually have fixed allegiances.
Most of those were FAQd werent they? Styrix in the index is questor imperialis specific, faq switches just about all the FW knights to <questor allegiance> or whatever.
0XFallen wrote: Can a freeblade be questor mechanicus?
And if I not make him a Freeblade, does he count as having a household alone while not getting the benefits?
Yes. I believe Freeblade overrides the House, not the allegiance. Many Knights actually have fixed allegiances.
Most of those were FAQd werent they? Styrix in the index is questor imperialis specific, faq switches just about all the FW knights to <questor allegiance> or whatever.
You are correct, they were, they FAQ'd all the forgeworld knight so that you could run them as Mechanicus or Questoris and they could benefit from the AD Mech or Knights Stratagems
Hey folks, I have my first ITC tournament upcoming in April and lately I'm thinking quite heavily about lists.
Has anyone experience with a Lucius betastrike army and would like to share?
lash92 wrote: Hey folks, I have my first ITC tournament upcoming in April and lately I'm thinking quite heavily about lists.
Has anyone experience with a Lucius betastrike army and would like to share?
You could try combining Lucius with a detachment from Vigilus. the Cybernetica Cohort.
1. Take 4+ Kastellan Robots with Fists & Flamers. + Datasmith
2. Deep Strike using Lucius Strat (2CP one for each)
3. use Power Surge strat from Vigilus (1CP) for +3 to charge rolls (this is why you need datasmith). 6" charge.
4. once in combat binharic overide (1CP) to change protocols for fight twice.
5. watch the opponants knight/superheavy/other dissappear...
6. the opponant now has to deal with some of our toughest units in his backlines and you can leave them and let them fight.
So it can repair Crawlers. I want the option of separating the Cawlstar and the Crawlers if I have to.
But if you want to see my WIP Styrix list, which is what I would probably bring to LVO if I were actually going, it would be something along these lines:
Heavy Support - 336 1x Mars Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Mars Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Mars Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Catachan Battalion Detachment - 334
HQ - 135 1x Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword???
The Chierovile hits other Knights like a Volcano Lance, but it has a much more consistent number of shots, reroll 1s to hit in shooting and fighting without a costly stratagem, without sacrificing too much range. The Styrix also can have a 3++ every turn (4++ against melee!), and your Priest can heal it for 4W on top of the built-in 1W heal on 5+. He also has a much stronger melee weapon. (S16 AP-4 D8 against other Knights!)
Basically, he's a super well-rounded Knight that doesn't require much of a CP investment.
Hmm, does mark of the omnisiah stack with that? For 1CP pregame you’d have a knight that just keeps on healin!
Regarding your TPD relic choice if your going WT Necromechanic then I’d recommend Arkhan Lands Pimp Cane. The two are a nice combo. Has served me well so far
Objectively speaking, I actually don't like the pimp cane too much. 8E is very killy, and people usually just focus fire and overkill things, making repairs relatively weak in terms of usefulness. But then again, our relics are really bad. We pretty much get to pick from Agripinaa Eye, Raiment, Mask, Graia Pimp Hat, Pimp Cane, and Tentacle Rape.
Ideasweasel wrote: Hmm, does mark of the omnisiah stack with that? For 1CP pregame you’d have a knight that just keeps on healin!
Regarding your TPD relic choice if your going WT Necromechanic then I’d recommend Arkhan Lands Pimp Cane. The two are a nice combo. Has served me well so far
*edit* just seen that you have headmans mark
Now that you mention it, If I have an Admech warlord and 2 relics via their stratagem, cant I give the knights a relic too for 1 cp as it has another name?
Suzuteo wrote: Objectively speaking, I actually don't like the pimp cane too much. 8E is very killy, and people usually just focus fire and overkill things, making repairs relatively weak in terms of usefulness. But then again, our relics are really bad. We pretty much get to pick from Agripinaa Eye, Raiment, Mask, Graia Pimp Hat, Pimp Cane, and Tentacle Rape.
I dunno I really like the phosphoenix. If I'm gonna pay 90 pts for a Dominus and run him up with all my vanguard I like being able to dig out annoying units in cover with that sweet AP 3 ignore cover. Metallica is kind of limited on what is really useful for us though. Most of the rest don't really pair with what we want to do.
Other than that only other relic I've really found useful is the pimp cane. If I end up being able to use formations in my area I will probably use the servo skill that let's me change robot protocols without using a datasmith, but that's just because I like the backup option.
Suzuteo wrote: Objectively speaking, I actually don't like the pimp cane too much. 8E is very killy, and people usually just focus fire and overkill things, making repairs relatively weak in terms of usefulness. But then again, our relics are really bad. We pretty much get to pick from Agripinaa Eye, Raiment, Mask, Graia Pimp Hat, Pimp Cane, and Tentacle Rape.
I dunno I really like the phosphoenix. If I'm gonna pay 90 pts for a Dominus and run him up with all my vanguard I like being able to dig out annoying units in cover with that sweet AP 3 ignore cover. Metallica is kind of limited on what is really useful for us though. Most of the rest don't really pair with what we want to do.
Other than that only other relic I've really found useful is the pimp cane. If I end up being able to use formations in my area I will probably use the servo skill that let's me change robot protocols without using a datasmith, but that's just because I like the backup option.
The Mecha-pimp Cane has one really useful instance - Servitor Maniple. It basically guarantees being able to resurrect the Kataphron. The lucky Onager, that saved some nasty shooting on its inv, would also like to have a Techpriest with the cane near him, to jump into the first bracket again.
I personally prefer Eye and Mask if I have to take an AdMech relic. Things that I control are always better than things my opponent can play around. Raiment also works if you are taking Dakkabots. (Great deterrent to Ynnari kamikaze.)
Yes mask as my mandatory its always strong eye as my primary optional their are a few match ups nids for example where it does nothing in which case im considering phosphonex
Some really good synergy there with both shooty and countercharge elements. Any good combo's spring to mind? Added range on Dakkabots and electropriests?
I wonder if the Bolter Weapons would work in combination with deep striking the Priest in. Otherwise you could even use it on things like flamers to add the extra inches needed to cover the 9" bubble.
I'm guessing not considering you have to declare the galvanic field at the start of the movement phase and generally deep strike is at the end of the movement phase. Or with a Termite drill, disembarking counts as moving so he couldn't get out.
Yeah im not sure how good he would be as a deepstrike charger for those reasons. He seems more countercharge to me or walking up the field with fistbots or something.
rollawaythestone wrote: Some really good synergy there with both shooty and countercharge elements. Any good combo's spring to mind? Added range on Dakkabots and electropriests?
If you take him as Lucius you can deepstrike a big unit of Electropriests and Solar Flare him over so they get the +1 to charge.
rollawaythestone wrote: Some really good synergy there with both shooty and countercharge elements. Any good combo's spring to mind? Added range on Dakkabots and electropriests?
If you take him as Lucius you can deepstrike a big unit of Electropriests and Solar Flare him over so they get the +1 to charge.
Not sure because you have to select his ability at the beginning of the movement phase. But I suppose we can wait for a FAQ?
rollawaythestone wrote: Some really good synergy there with both shooty and countercharge elements. Any good combo's spring to mind? Added range on Dakkabots and electropriests?
If you take him as Lucius you can deepstrike a big unit of Electropriests and Solar Flare him over so they get the +1 to charge.
Not sure because you have to select his ability at the beginning of the movement phase. But I suppose we can wait for a FAQ?
Why would that need an FAQ? He's on the board at the beginning of the movement phase so is fine to activate the ability.
rollawaythestone wrote: Some really good synergy there with both shooty and countercharge elements. Any good combo's spring to mind? Added range on Dakkabots and electropriests?
If you take him as Lucius you can deepstrike a big unit of Electropriests and Solar Flare him over so they get the +1 to charge.
Not sure because you have to select his ability at the beginning of the movement phase. But I suppose we can wait for a FAQ?
Why would that need an FAQ? He's on the board at the beginning of the movement phase so is fine to activate the ability.
You could also deep strike some vigilus kastellans in a Lucius detachment, pop the strat giving +3 to charge solar flare this guy across and give a further +1 to charge...
Yeah, the Solar Flare probably wouldn't work with Bolter Weapons though, considering the teleportation will be seen as movement. But Bolter Warriors shouldn't be a problem.
Well the new hq's buff rules are out and its so dissapointing it specifies forgeworld because the one unit i want to buff with it is the hoplites and they are not effected
Just need to wait and see what points he will be? I am thinking about 50-60 max. More than that and I will just get the model for kill team and probably not use him in 40k as you could get 2 engineers instead
He seems alright, he will give himself a 21" range Magnarail Lance which kinda makes up for the poop range. He also makes vanguards 21" range wwith plasma and radiums which is nice, rangers 36" range with galvanics and 30" with arc rifles which is tasty (and 66" range arquebuses just for lols), kastellans at 42" range with blasters or a 15" flamer, makes our kataphrons range 42" with plasma and range 36" with grav and then 11" flamers, onagers get 54" neutrons and icarus arrays.
So if you dont want two enginseers you could have 2 Manipulus, one giving the range enhance and one giving the speed enhancement which is quite nice, finally we have a movement 9" Dragoons and Sicarians back!
The movement says its range is increased when the roll is made but when does the range modifier stop working? End of Turn? Start of your next turn? Im guessing its the start of your next movement which is nice for overwatch purposes.
A very missed opportunity IMO, especially he's sold as the Infiltrators guy. The unit, with the innate DS, that cant capitalise on Manipulus rules, due to completely screwed "at the beginning of the movement" wording. That wording makes this guy a very niche addition, basically being viable mainly next to Mars Kastelan castle.
I've said it once, and since this release preview my point is only strengthened - someone in 40k rules team hates the Admech. They want us to be 40k Dwarves, without Dwarves survivability and range. Admech is supposed to castle camp and play the dull version of the reactive, instead proactive, game.
Looks good to me and with the choice of buffs I imagine it'll make appearances in a great many mono-Ad Mech lists. Depends largely on points cost but it's less than a Dominus and isn't an unneeded extra Enginseer so there won't be much reason not to take him.
deffrekka wrote: He seems alright, he will give himself a 21" range Magnarail Lance which kinda makes up for the poop range. He also makes vanguards 21" range wwith plasma and radiums which is nice, rangers 36" range with galvanics and 30" with arc rifles which is tasty (and 66" range arquebuses just for lols), kastellans at 42" range with blasters or a 15" flamer, makes our kataphrons range 42" with plasma and range 36" with grav and then 11" flamers, onagers get 54" neutrons and icarus arrays.
So if you dont want two enginseers you could have 2 Manipulus, one giving the range enhance and one giving the speed enhancement which is quite nice, finally we have a movement 9" Dragoons and Sicarians back!
The movement says its range is increased when the roll is made but when does the range modifier stop working? End of Turn? Start of your next turn? Im guessing its the start of your next movement which is nice for overwatch purposes.
Hes a quite good defensive buffer.
Good spot on overwatch those Flamers on the kataphrons now can't be avoided due to charges from outside your range...
deffrekka wrote: The movement says its range is increased when the roll is made but when does the range modifier stop working? End of Turn? Start of your next turn? Im guessing its the start of your next movement which is nice for overwatch purposes.
They last until the start of the next movement phase. It's the first line of both effects.
On the other hand most of the time they will just shoot your destroyers. Its a pretty weak use. It could be of minor benefit to vanguard and corpuscarii (which is a rarity). Everything else can already hit 3/4 of the board except infiltrators which will DS
As to useing two it doesnt really work because one has to be stationary and the other moves the squad out of range.
I wont buy one if its more than about 40-45pts because really its a enginseer with +1 sv and a better gun
He can also repair any admech model, not just vehicles, so he can help repair Kataphrons or other tech priest characters around him. Niche but I've found that ability very helpful on my Dominus, since I'm pretty sure it can combo with bionics.
He's actually growing on me now. He's really a Swiss army knife character that can be used for all kinds of things. I wish the stupid magna rail wasn't heavy so he could advance up with my vanguard but I may still take one with the flamer and give it a shot. He's a great tool for kataphrons and Kastellans, both have that 36" range and sometimes that's just a little short. And then he has a decent melee profile, but of course he doesn't get an axe so we can't give him those relics. He seems like a good choice for the mask, he's the most mobile Techpriest we have and the best in melee, even if that's only because the rest are really bad.
I just hate how he can't move if he buffs our weapons. We used to be known for always moving and shooting without penalties, at least as skitarii. A lot of the new abilities and weapons encourage us to stay still and that gets really boring. That and his magna rail only being 18" or 21" with the buff hurts too. If it had a 24" range base or been an assault weapon I'd have no real complaints with him. People at my store are really going to hate him, they already hate all the plasma vanguard I spam as is, so when they're getting an extra 2" movement every turn that's going to make them surprisingly fast.
Thing is the kataphrons really need a domminous or cawl they dont need an extra repair the dominoud. Plus do they really need the range i mean its effectively 36- 42" as you can move without penalty. Do yoy want to move them towards the enemy faster.
Moving is not an option with the increased range, not only cant he move for any reason for this turn, but the units only get the buff while they are within the 6", so they have to be around him for the shooting phase.
Hey, he got the +1 to charges like I wanted. Now he has a use.
The range buff is certainly interesting though. Galvanic Rifles being able to rapid fire at 18" is pretty damn strong actually, and giving Rangers 21" is a nice little buff to their threat range.
Use for what he doesnt buff hoplites or deep strikers so no beta strikeing lucius. Or infiltrators
Footslogging electropriests and ruststalkers maybe but when did you last see that in competative. Dragoons out pace him
He basically buffs.troops but rangers still do almost no damage vanguard dont really want to be in cc and while the range buff does benefit them is it.really worth much of a pts investment
U02dah4 wrote: Use for what he doesnt buff hoplites or deep strikers so no beta strikeing lucius. Or infiltrators
Footslogging electropriests and ruststalkers maybe but when did you last see that in competative. Dragoons out pace him
He basically buffs.troops but rangers still do almost no damage vanguard dont really want to be in cc and while the range buff does benefit them is it.really worth much of a pts investment
Heavy arc rifle +plasma are 36" range they can move and fire without penalty so 42" range assuming you deploy 12-24" forward depending on deployment type thats 54" -66" without advancing an extra 6" is going to make no difference in the majority of circumstances even the grav ends up at 48-60"
I wonder what his point cost is. Because the Manipulus is pretty much auto-take. Perhaps you might even need to take TWO to get both abilities. 42" Dakkabots and Kataphrons, 54" Icarus Crawlers. They can also move, advance, and charge another 1". Have each Manipulus take turns, leap-frogging them; one guy Bolsters Warriors, the other guy Bolsters Weapons. It just drastically improves the reach of the army in general.
The Forgemaster wrote: You could also deep strike some vigilus kastellans in a Lucius detachment, pop the strat giving +3 to charge solar flare this guy across and give a further +1 to charge...
I don't think they need any more help getting into range, given how ridiculously easy it is with a command reroll.
I'm looking at two. Pure admech you want two batallions at least which means for non Mars Dominus, 2 manipulus, and an enginseer for the sweet spot I think. That let's you have an agressive one moving up with stuff like Dragoons and vanguard and a defensive one buffing Kastelan, Kataphrons, rangers, etc. The nice bit is they can switch as needed, so you can react to the flow of the game. So if you need to counter charge your manipulus tending to your Kastellans can switch to the movement mode to help some Dragoons get into a combat, or vice versa.
So for example that dumb strafing run Kastelan idea I had, a manipulus would be a good addition as long as he can keep up. He makes them faster as they run up, and then when you've found a spot you want to hold you put him into the ranged mode alongside them and they can cover pretty much anything they would be able to see. Not the most competitive thing sure but an example of how he can be used with both modes.
While I was wishing for reroll 1's to wound, I must say I like that this character has far more nuance than 90% if the HQ's in the game who just let you reroll to hit rolls. I have a feeling we'll see a lot of neat ideas start to emerge with him once we see his full set of rules.
Manipulus looks great (unless he has a rediculous point cost), especially because I can't think of any reason why I would ever want more than one Enginseer in a list (HQ slot filling is all nice and dandy, but you usually only need one before every additional one turns into 30ppm dead weight).
He's definitely VERY nice for more defensive infantry spamming, Rangers going to 18" rapid fire range (heck, the only other infantry unit (aside from Marines who have to stay immobile for the most part) who gets that are Tau Fire Warriors, but only if you keep a rather fragile pulse accelerator drone with a rather small 3" buff range around them) is nice, and cheap and easily spammed Arc Rifles getting 15" range makes them even more attractive. Congo lining isn't much of an issue either. Meanwhile a horde of Vanguard benefits from getting 2" of bonus movement if they advance and have a Manipulus running along with him (who also enjoys getting 8"+D6 movement on top of his flamer range). I like it, and am happy because I wanted our next HQ to be an effective infantry buffer anyway.
But even in a firebase (where it is easiest to get around him not being able to move), Dakkabots going from 36"->42" range is really, REALLY nice, especially if you have to break their legs with a Binaric Override. Kataphron's and everyone's favorite mecha crabs are the other big winners, 42" heavy stubbers are nice for cleaning backfield objective sitters and bubble wraps, and you can't say no to the extra range for the main guns either - both units also have zero issues moving into the 6" buff radius thanks to moving and firing without penalty.
I like to play a whole bunch of Rangers, 3 Crabs, 3 Dakkabots, a Dominus and a Lascannon-Chicken in my Stygies list, and my firebase gets considerably buffed with those tasty bolstered weapons.
The magnarail going to 21" range and the fact that you automatically get the weapon's 3D buff when you have to stay immobile anyways means that he likely at least gets to contribute a bit of firepower at range.
I mean, outside of melee specialists, is there any unit in our Codex that isn't benefiting from having a Manipulus around? Especially considering that most of our shooty units seem to have 24"+ weapon ranges. Heck, even flamers having 11" range is REALLY nice to counter the usual long-range chargers.
Goddamit, now I regret not having a third Dominus to convert into a Manipulus. Will have to sleep on whether I am going to buy the Killteam box (getting 5 Ruststalkers isn't half bad for building and painting fun and having a unit for nerfing my lists for beer&bretzels games) or a cheap Dominus on ebay.
U02dah4 wrote: Thing is the kataphrons really need a domminous or cawl they dont need an extra repair the dominoud. Plus do they really need the range i mean its effectively 36- 42" as you can move without penalty. Do yoy want to move them towards the enemy faster.
Enginseers can do literally NOTHING but repair. Usually having 2-3 of them means that you have 60 points worth of characters on the field twiddling their thumbs and contributing absolutely nothing besides filling HQ slots. Anyone (like me) who wants to play pure Admech will be happy to get a nice HQ slot filling alternative that can provide a bunch of new and unique buffs that synergize with Cawl and the good old Dominus and the units they usually buff. It also really helps forgeworld's that aren't Mars and are forced to take a Dominus (or two) + a bunch of enginseers if they want more than one battalion. Him being able to repair as well is simply another nice bonus. Heck, even if the Manipulus is 60-70ish points I'd take him over 2 enginseers any time of the day point for point.
Even melee specialists like the Manipulus. Here's a 6-man dragoon squad. Here's Clandestine Infiltration. Conga-line well enough to the Manipulus (easy with those massive bases) and now they're moving 11" (+ the previous 9") and charging +1". So that's a 3" charge essentially from deployment zone to deployment zone on a 24" between deployment zone map (Hammer and Anvil for example). It'd be totally doable to move and then charge 30" before your opponent even gets a turn.
Enginseer 1 my only mars hq cant repair but omniscient mask accompanying my 3 hoplite units overpowered and when he dies 30 pts is not a loss hes made it back in the buff
Enginseer 2 eye of agripinaa sure he repairs a.frontline unit in some games but really hes there to laser point that vehicle its essential as he force multiplies half the units in my army
Enginseer 3 yes this is the repair one back with my onagers and ballistarii thing is if he repairs twice during a game hes made his points back. At 60 pts he would need to repair 4 times not reliable
If your enginseers are doing nothing your useing them wrong
Far as i can see he effectively buffs vanguard and maybe corpuscarii for movement and you probably dont care about the vanguard and probably arnt running corpuscarii.
His range buff isnt terrible on dakkabots because.they cant move but anything else 30"+ just doesnt need it the majority of the time so yes its technically a buff but if your onagers target was somewhere within the 56"range +movement it normally has its not benefiting
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Jackal444 wrote: Even melee specialists like the Manipulus. Here's a 6-man dragoon squad. Here's Clandestine Infiltration. Conga-line well enough to the Manipulus (easy with those massive bases) and now they're moving 11" (+ the previous 9") and charging +1". So that's a 3" charge essentially from deployment zone to deployment zone on a 24" between deployment zone map (Hammer and Anvil for example). It'd be totally doable to move and then charge 30" before your opponent even gets a turn.
11+9+8 expectancy so your smart opponent deploys 5-6" back or sacrifices a guard squad or eq as a screen prior to nerf your opponent didnt have the option to deploy back it made it much stronger not a terrible combo but its makeing a less reliable tactic.slightly better
Not everyone is running weird mixed FW detachments though. Your enginseers main utility is being cheap relic caddies, which is a niche scenario. if you're not mixing the FW most you're going to see is maybe 2 relics worth taking an enginseer for. Yes this thread is tactics but it's not just tactics for ITC, it can be tactics for standard play or trying to stay pure admech or whatever.
I understand pure detachments may not be the best for competitive play but to the average player I think it's safe to say the Manipulus gives you more usefulness and utility than an extra enginseer. For the average player more than 1 is usually diminishing returns and more than 2 definitely diminishing returns because most people aren't mixing FW's yet. For them, as long as the Manipulus isn't 70+ points it's a good choice after you get the initial enginseer.
Maybe that will change with time, but I have a feeling if this style of mixing tons of traits in one detachment to milk strategems and relics for maximum gain becomes popular GW will Nerf it somehow. They've shown in the past they don't like weird mixed detachments. Don't get me wrong the mixed detachment idea is clever and I like it, especially after Mechanicus shows the FW's working together on the same ship. I just wouldny paint my army that way personally because it feels like something GW will put an end to at some point.
No i run pure detachments just more than 1 and different forgeworlds for each.
Its a terrible choice unless the pts are really low for the avg player anything 36" range or more can pretty much hit the whole board it doesnt need to be range buffed, it cant buff deepstrikers and doesnt impact our best footsloggers. The majority of games your paying for utility that wont impact the game meaningfully.
I hadnt noticed it couldnt buff across forgeworlds but that does make it worse
U02dah4 wrote: No i run pure detachments just more than 1 and different forgeworlds for each.
Its a terrible choice unless the pts are really low for the avg player anything 36" range or more can pretty much hit the whole board it doesnt need to be range buffed, it cant buff deepstrikers and doesnt impact our best footsloggers. The majority of games your paying for utility that wont impact the game meaningfully.
I hadnt noticed it couldnt buff across forgeworlds but that does make it worse
I'd like to notice that even with additional 6" to a 42" total, it's not that helpful due to his being grounded effect. Kastelans can move and increase their range by 8" already, so to get the additional 6" bonus someone have to conga and most probably be out of range. Kataphrons have 6" movement, without the penalty to hit. Onagers - again 8" (although due to thei dinner plate bases catching the aura will be easier). Manipulus definetely doesn't buff the slogging Infantry because of that penalty, as everyone has at least 6" movement - unless again doing congas limiting the firepower. This guy is, in my eyes at least, designed to support the castle. But Admech castles do not score points.
Besides we are living in the world, where Lootas or Dark Reapers have 48" range anyway, and can either Da Jump or Fire and Fade. 42" on a grounded Kastelans unit is not remotely close to deal with the opponents we will meet. I'm buying the model for the model, but I guess he will gather dust in the end (unless I try to Solar Flare the guy around for a Corpuscarii DS support).
I totally mix Forge Worlds. TPM probably will not change that. Some things are simply better with access to a certain stratagem.
Skitarii also still are not anywhere near as good as Guardsmen. Move Move Move is insanely strong. It's really out only way to outmaneuever Eldar.
On the issue of points, what base size do you think these TPM have? It seems like 40mm, like the Infiltrators, but I can't tell from the angle of the photos. Anyone got a better way to tell? In any case, they seem to be halfway between Enginseers and TPD, so... 50-60 points?
Also, it seems the website has these boxes at £40. That is a very good value! Sicarian Infiltrators cost £28 usually. So you are getting the terrain pieces (great for Knight rubble at least) and the Manipulus for £12.
Suzuteo wrote: I totally mix Forge Worlds. TPM probably will not change that. Some things are simply better with access to a certain stratagem.
Skitarii also still are not anywhere near as good as Guardsmen. Move Move Move is insanely strong. It's really out only way to outmaneuever Eldar.
Guess that's my problem with Mechanics - I refuse to mix the ugly ass of IG in. Sounds like a nice summary for the Admech codex, isn't it
On the issue of points, what base size do you think these TPM have? It seems like 40mm, like the Infiltrators, but I can't tell from the angle of the photos. Anyone got a better way to tell? In any case, they seem to be halfway between Enginseers and TPD, so... 50-60 points?
Also, it seems the website has these boxes at £40. That is a very good value! Sicarian Infiltrators cost £28 usually. So you are getting the terrain pieces (great for Knight rubble at least) and the Manipulus for £12.
The base indeed seems to be Infiltrators. Although I'm buying the box, as the value is indeed decent, with a little trimming one of my two sprue TPDs might get converted. Just for kicks.
Unfortunate on the points (I wonder if the pts were determined pre-CA, and we'll get a FAQ). Still think it's useable instead of a Dominus, particularly in a Cawl list where you don't need the extra re-roll buff. Thoughts?
So much for slotting in between Enginseers and Dominii, that's exactly what a base Dominus costs as well... while being way more useful AND having more firepower and durability. Didn't they consider the CA18 point changes at all when writing the Manipulus' rules (or heck, the previews a few days ago) even though those changes were reportedly finished months before release (the main reason the Castellan didn't get the nerfbat it deserved)? Seriously, I'd rather take two Dominii so I can split up my army more and don't have to firebase castle around a single one, that brings more utility considering all the drawbacks with the Manipulus' buff auras and his lackluster weapon options and statline.
To add injury to the insult, the Magnarail lance costs another 5 points (95 points total, that's more expensive than a Dominus with Serpenta and Eradication Ray!).
Who is writing those profiles, Forgeworld staff or the Community team O.o?
And I genuinely thought that the new character wouldn't be DOA. I feel stupid now. Well, it'll save me the bother of buying the new kit or converting one at least :(.
So much for slotting in between Enginseers and Dominii, that's exactly what a base Dominus costs as well... while being way more useful AND having more firepower and durability. Didn't they consider the CA18 point changes at all when writing the Manipulus' rules (or heck, the previews a few days ago) even though those changes were reportedly finished months before release (the main reason the Castellan didn't get the nerfbat it deserved)? Seriously, I'd rather take two Dominii so I can split up my army more and don't have to firebase castle around a single one, that brings more utility considering all the drawbacks with the Manipulus' buff auras and his lackluster weapon options and statline.
To add injury to the insult, the Magnarail lance costs another 5 points (95 points total, that's more expensive than a Dominus with Serpenta and Eradication Ray!).
Who is writing those profiles, Forgeworld staff or the Community team O.o?
And I genuinely thought that the new character wouldn't be DOA. I feel stupid now. Well, it'll save me the bother of buying the new kit or converting one at least :(.
While I'm not thrilled about the price, I'm not writing it off yet. Stat-wise the only difference with the Dominus is bs2+ and +1 wound. The number of wounds aren't going to come into play often since they're characters, and if you're taking the flamer on the Manipulus you don't care about your bs anyway. The Manipulus is better at CC, which fills a need the army has. Everyone and their brother is bringing hordes of guardsmen, scouts, or cultists, and the Manipulus is well designed to join your dragoons/electropriests/vanguard in midfield to wipe them out. I think one makes a lot of sense in Stygies helping dragoons get off a first turn charge, among other things.
I do hope they adjust him downward a bit, but I like the direction they took with him.
Whelp, it was fun thinking he was going to be useful while it lasted. He is not worth 90 pts, and especially not 95pts with an 18" range crappy arquebus
So, you're only going to be running one of these, tops. And you pretty much have to pair it with Cawl or Dominus in a Battalion or Brigade, but man is that a lot of points toward HQs. Might be worth it in a large single Forge World detachment like Agripinaa or Stygies...
Situated between an Enginseer (30) and a Dominus (90)
*95*
hmm not sure how 95 is between 30-90 but someone had to resit some exams at university i figure
The only sensible explanation - release was printed way before the CA was closed, and there will be a points drop. Just let's hope it will be the FAQ, not CA 2019...
So for a slightly suped up enginseer with a special gun +1sv and slightly buffed combat (where you dont want him) i would expect 15-20 points more to make him useable the buff being negligable in most circumstances. At more than a dominous i will be sticking with my enginseers.
U02dah4 wrote: So for a slightly suped up enginseer with a special gun +1sv and slightly buffed combat (where you dont want him) i would expect 15-20 points more to make him useable the buff being negligable in most circumstances. At more than a dominous i will be sticking with my enginseers.
Likewise. That and the model for this guy is just not that great. The boxed set does include terrain I might want and Infiltrators I do need, but I can just get the Infiltrators and not worry about the rest. My Ad Mech Brigade will continue to have two Dominus and an Enginseer.
The only sensible explanation - release was printed way before the CA was closed, and there will be a points drop. Just let's hope it will be the FAQ, not CA 2019...
I’m thinking of cancelling my preorder but I’m not sure if I’m being too hasty. I have far to many unpainted models gathering dust and I can see tech priest tubs being another
Ideasweasel wrote: I’m thinking of cancelling my preorder but I’m not sure if I’m being too hasty. I have far to many unpainted models gathering dust and I can see tech priest tubs being another
Do it, worst you will buy him again, best case: GW sees they fethed up as nobody buys him and have to change the rules or lower the cost.
Edit: Preferably I would like to see the Magnarail increasing in range to 24", as its still only one shot and would increase to 30" with his aura, as well as the movement buff increasing to 2" for everything and I would then pay 80, for flamer, a little more with the rail
Ideasweasel wrote: I’m thinking of cancelling my preorder but I’m not sure if I’m being too hasty. I have far to many unpainted models gathering dust and I can see tech priest tubs being another
I was yet somewhat willing to preorder for the model alone, hoping to work it out with Cawlstar at least. But I resigned when I saw the price - it's simply not worth it. I will wait for a while to see if they improve the guy anyhow. To do tests proxy is enough anyway.
Yesterday I saw some comments on the facebook concerning the point cost of the new hq, went back today to see if GW respond, and noticed they are missing. Did GW delete/hide the comments?
Ideasweasel wrote: I’m thinking of cancelling my preorder but I’m not sure if I’m being too hasty. I have far to many unpainted models gathering dust and I can see tech priest tubs being another
If you still pre-order you essentially show GW that you agree with the way they handled the release, the product you are getting (including the bad rules) and bought into their marketing and encourage them to keep doing that in the future, especially because you even give them your money before they even released a set that will be available for several more months, probably even years after release. And your models gathering dust won't be thanking you either and the Manipulus will probably join their ranks too, won't he?
I mean if you want to throw money at GW out of blind brand loyalty and encourage them to keep doing what they did with the Manipulus, go ahead I guess.
Lol Ragnar, slow it down a little. My situation is a little more complex because I just ordered the fig on eBay. So I need to contact the seller and try and negotiate something.
I never normally preorder things to be honest but someone linked me a fairly cheap price and I pounced whilst they had some left.
As for blind brand loyalty, that certainly isn’t my style.
Rex2490 wrote: Yesterday I saw some comments on the facebook concerning the point cost of the new hq, went back today to see if GW respond, and noticed they are missing. Did GW delete/hide the comments?
My comment is still there. The community team replied, telling me to email feedback to their FAQ team, so I am going to do just that. 40KFAQ@gwplc.com
Anyone else as disappointed as I am should do the same.
So I'm plucking away at my Admech army and I'm wondering what the general consensus is on the servitor maniple and if it'd be worth it to take a min squad of servitors for the stratagem.
fraser1191 wrote: So I'm plucking away at my Admech army and I'm wondering what the general consensus is on the servitor maniple and if it'd be worth it to take a min squad of servitors for the stratagem.
Which stratagem are you referring to? The Agripinaa one? It's pretty good. Use it on a unit of 6x Plasmaphrons for the best results. And Servitors are also not bad. However, I still think Ryzaphrons are where it is at. They are amazingly powerful once you stack all the stratagems.
The Forgemaster wrote: what is the general consensus of 6x ryzaphrons compared to 9x? is it worth it to go any higher than 6 in one unit?
IMO 9 od a better idea. Destroyers are soft, and you will lose them eventually. It's better to have a threshold of 3 before you start losing your firepower you've invested many points and cps in.
If you take a squad of 9 be sure to save 2 CP for your autopassing morale, since they only got a LD of 7 and you really don't wanna take morale casualties on such an expensive model.
Suzuteo wrote: No. Because most enclosed ITC ruins don't fit 9x Ryzaphrons.
I wouldn't worry about the enclosed ruins. In one of the recent Signals from the Frontline they've addressed that directly stating, that there still be very few of those. And people hinging their tactics on such terrain will get very disappointed on the LVO. ETC events have open terrains as well.
From my experience an effective shooting from Ryzaphrons is achievable with 4-5 models alive. And around 4-5 are being lost with the average first turn of shooting, assuming I've deployed to go second (so hidden behind a break somewhere). Hence why I take 9.
fraser1191 wrote: So I'm plucking away at my Admech army and I'm wondering what the general consensus is on the servitor maniple and if it'd be worth it to take a min squad of servitors for the stratagem.
Which stratagem are you referring to? The Agripinaa one? It's pretty good. Use it on a unit of 6x Plasmaphrons for the best results. And Servitors are also not bad. However, I still think Ryzaphrons are where it is at. They are amazingly powerful once you stack all the stratagems.
I was referring to the Vigilus formation and the stratagem to sacrifice a servitor to revive a kataphron
fraser1191 wrote: So I'm plucking away at my Admech army and I'm wondering what the general consensus is on the servitor maniple and if it'd be worth it to take a min squad of servitors for the stratagem.
Which stratagem are you referring to? The Agripinaa one? It's pretty good. Use it on a unit of 6x Plasmaphrons for the best results. And Servitors are also not bad. However, I still think Ryzaphrons are where it is at. They are amazingly powerful once you stack all the stratagems.
I was referring to the Vigilus formation and the stratagem to sacrifice a servitor to revive a kataphron
Suzuteo wrote: No. Because most enclosed ITC ruins don't fit 9x Ryzaphrons.
I wouldn't worry about the enclosed ruins. In one of the recent Signals from the Frontline they've addressed that directly stating, that there still be very few of those. And people hinging their tactics on such terrain will get very disappointed on the LVO. ETC events have open terrains as well.
From my experience an effective shooting from Ryzaphrons is achievable with 4-5 models alive. And around 4-5 are being lost with the average first turn of shooting, assuming I've deployed to go second (so hidden behind a break somewhere). Hence why I take 9.
It's still very hard to hide nine. They are on 60mm bases. But sure. You definitely will get better economies of scale.
Uh... if your goal is to win through attrition, best you pick something that is more durable than a Kataphron.
fraser1191 wrote: So I'm plucking away at my Admech army and I'm wondering what the general consensus is on the servitor maniple and if it'd be worth it to take a min squad of servitors for the stratagem.
Which stratagem are you referring to? The Agripinaa one? It's pretty good. Use it on a unit of 6x Plasmaphrons for the best results. And Servitors are also not bad. However, I still think Ryzaphrons are where it is at. They are amazingly powerful once you stack all the stratagems.
I was referring to the Vigilus formation and the stratagem to sacrifice a servitor to revive a kataphron
It's a WLT, though there is a stratagem to take it without making your TPD a Warlord. I think it is situationally good. Against something like Eldar, which is really good at erasing your units and then jumping out of LOS, I would not bother investing too much CP in Kataphrons. Instead, they should just be gun bait. Rely on your Crawlers, Dakkabots, and/or Knight to win.
I agree on Ryza Destroyers, 6 have done a lot of work for me but I think 9 draws a lot of attention. 6 maintains plenty of food and while leaving points for you to contribute to threat saturation.
Suzuteo wrote: No. Because most enclosed ITC ruins don't fit 9x Ryzaphrons.
I wouldn't worry about the enclosed ruins. In one of the recent Signals from the Frontline they've addressed that directly stating, that there still be very few of those. And people hinging their tactics on such terrain will get very disappointed on the LVO. ETC events have open terrains as well.
From my experience an effective shooting from Ryzaphrons is achievable with 4-5 models alive. And around 4-5 are being lost with the average first turn of shooting, assuming I've deployed to go second (so hidden behind a break somewhere). Hence why I take 9.
It's still very hard to hide nine. They are on 60mm bases. But sure. You definitely will get better economies of scale.
Uh... if your goal is to win through attrition, best you pick something that is more durable than a Kataphron.
fraser1191 wrote: So I'm plucking away at my Admech army and I'm wondering what the general consensus is on the servitor maniple and if it'd be worth it to take a min squad of servitors for the stratagem.
Which stratagem are you referring to? The Agripinaa one? It's pretty good. Use it on a unit of 6x Plasmaphrons for the best results. And Servitors are also not bad. However, I still think Ryzaphrons are where it is at. They are amazingly powerful once you stack all the stratagems.
I was referring to the Vigilus formation and the stratagem to sacrifice a servitor to revive a kataphron
It's a WLT, though there is a stratagem to take it without making your TPD a Warlord. I think it is situationally good. Against something like Eldar, which is really good at erasing your units and then jumping out of LOS, I would not bother investing too much CP in Kataphrons. Instead, they should just be gun bait. Rely on your Crawlers, Dakkabots, and/or Knight to win.
Its why ive started moving to Agripinaa breachers the extra survivability for their pts means your more likely to have that surviving modelto strat.
lash92 wrote: But Breachers damage output compared to Ryza Plasmaphrons is pretty underwhelming? ^^
They are a fair bit cheaper and tougher on a point by point basis, 3 start at 90pts. I'm not sure if their damage output warrants it but if you take the formation youre paying a command point and 10pts for each T5 3+/5++ wound, I don't know much else as tough for that price.
They're probably good enough for casual play at least. The guns aren't bad but I don't think I'd expect much in melee.
6 is the hard limit for letting Agripinaa Tide of Traitors revive and redeploy Kataphrons, but more is fine for Ryza I think. Just, if you put too many there they’ll start attracting anti-tank fire and get devastated. Don’t wanna make them too obvious a target.
Agripinaa breachers are hilarious if you dump CP into them. Servitor Maniple them, give them a 5++, use Shroudspalm, put them on an objective and activate Acquisiton at All Costs, put a manipulus and dominus in range with Biosplicing and 4 servitors, and viola - 1+/4++, and if one dies you can revive and heal it (and if one gets hurt after one dies, you can heal it full, then revive, then heal that revived one full for another CP), and if too many die you can revive and redeploy the whole unit. Nasty survivability, but obviously loses some of the firepower of Ryza.
Pomguo wrote: 6 is the hard limit for letting Agripinaa Tide of Traitors revive and redeploy Kataphrons, but more is fine for Ryza I think. Just, if you put too many there they’ll start attracting anti-tank fire and get devastated. Don’t wanna make them too obvious a target.
Agripinaa breachers are hilarious if you dump CP into them. Servitor Maniple them, give them a 5++, use Shroudspalm, put them on an objective and activate Acquisiton at All Costs, put a manipulus and dominus in range with Biosplicing and 4 servitors, and viola - 1+/4++, and if one dies you can revive and heal it (and if one gets hurt after one dies, you can heal it full, then revive, then heal that revived one full for another CP), and if too many die you can revive and redeploy the whole unit. Nasty survivability, but obviously loses some of the firepower of Ryza.
Wonder how that would do if you spammed them. They're not expensive pts wise, even if your wallet would cry. A batallion of 30 or so breachers with Servitors and the biosplicer warlord would be an interesting thing to see on the table. Pop shroudpsalm and itd be like fighting terminators if terminators were actually tough. Then you take the eye relic so they can be more reliable against vehicles, and use the rest of your points on targets they can't handle, so Dakkastellans, Icarus Onagers, and taser Dragoons.
Bit one dimensional and slow, but I'm not sure the average person would have much that could chew through that much, especially with the ability to regenerate so many and keep them in the fight. Nice thing is that breachers are pretty cheap on eBay so you could probably get some good deals on them if you were crazy enough to try it.
I've been testing Breachers recently, in the Maniple. They are though. Enough to hold the objective and not crumble under Flayed Ones attack, supported by the fire of Immortals and the D6 shots DD3 barge. I've been running Stygies though, so no Agripinaa shenanigans, and the fire was way less efficient due to disabling the tesla.
However they do so little in return they have to be assisted. 4+ hitting kills their melee performance, and mere 2 shots kills their shooting. They weren't able to kill the Flayed and let's face it - it's not the most resistant unit.
They do have a weak spot vs monstrous creatures and infantry they are vehicle killers. So poor target for them. They do double damage vs vehicles. But im not expecting to fight a flayed one the way I am a knight. 6 breachers =4 destroyers
Your looking at an expectancy of 4.8w vs knights with reroll 1's to hit and w and assumeing a 4++. Or 6.4 with +1BS However because of the strat and the better save you will likely get it for 3 turns shooting at least (my playtest experience). 1cp per turn if you buff 3 cp to bring back for 14.4 or 19.2 across the game
Vs
4 plasma Destroyers assuming ryza same points and reroll1's to hit 10.9 or 15.7 with +2bs. At 4 cp for 1 turn shooting and they are then dead
Destroyers you can only buff 1 unit less save worse CC. Yet across the game I expect them to do similar or less net damage (but faster). Destroyers also only work in one unit soon as you swap to 2 they lose 30.5% of their damage output and breachers outshoot them. Breachers will also have taken more firepower away from your other units before they go your also paying a TPD tax that doesnt help the rest of your army
As an Idea
Army Faction: <Adeptus Mechanicus>
Command points 19
If you're falling back on your Breachers to do CC, you are in a lot of trouble. My biggest issue with them is that they don't have a clearly defined role. If they had DS (Holy Retributor, anyone?), then they could act as super TEQs, but as it stands, they are a low mobility, non-flying Haywire shooter with Power Fists.
Agripinaa is actually becoming more appealing. Out of the three pure Forge World detachment options, I am coming to like them the most. (The other two being Stygies and Graia.) Agripinaa Brigades can have Dominus (Biosplicing), Manipulus, Enginseer (Eye), 3x Icarus Crawlers, 3x Servitors, 3x LasBallistarii, and a 6x Plasmaphron. It's like the scuttling horrors list.
Anyhow, I like 6 Ryza Destroyers. 4 Destroyers is the next step down, and I would only take it for "fitting into ruins" purposes.
I don't see how you're ignoring WoM + Kastelans + Cawl, its one of the strongest offensive combos in the game, especially with the prevalence of cover and infantry swarms.
Armies taking tons of infantry is going to start getting more and more prevalent and Kastelans excel at killing them. The bigger the unit, the harder it is to hide.
Because for that to work you dont need a pure Mars Detachment, since their Dogma isn´t that useful. You could take Cawl + Bots and then make your troops Graia for psychic defense and if you have Dragoons make them Stygies for infiltrating etc.
That plus the fact, that Cawlstar is quite easy to counter by either killing the robots (this meta is very unfavorable for a T7- W6 vehicles - al it takes to take a model down are 3 Lootas shots passing), engaging them in combat, or by outscoring the list. Plus we've been playing with it for a year already and it becomes... Boring?
dadamowsky wrote: That plus the fact, that Cawlstar is quite easy to counter by either killing the robots (this meta is very unfavorable for a T7- W6 vehicles - al it takes to take a model down are 3 Lootas shots passing), engaging them in combat, or by outscoring the list. Plus we've been playing with it for a year already and it becomes... Boring?
ultimentra wrote: I don't see how you're ignoring WoM + Kastelans + Cawl, its one of the strongest offensive combos in the game, especially with the prevalence of cover and infantry swarms.
Armies taking tons of infantry is going to start getting more and more prevalent and Kastelans excel at killing them. The bigger the unit, the harder it is to hide.
It's well established as not working.
Sure its a strong combo but its easily countered and very expensive and when ypu look at tourney results it consistently doesnt take them down. Also as a core list it didn't improve much in CA18 or vigilous and a lot of our units did.
Yes the neta change may help but we don't need wom to kill orks and many of our units vanguard corpuscarii infiltrators are all decent vs horde not just bots
That made me thinking though... what would make Cawlstar work in your opinion? IMO the Datasmiths changing the protocols the same freaking turn, instead of giving freebies to the opponent, would be a huge improvement. Or at least one of the following: the stratagem for ignoring the heavy penalty working for a whole unit, a better/longer buff from the Manipulus, or more durable (or cheaper, but it won't beat the IG anyway) troop choice.
ultimentra wrote: I don't see how you're ignoring WoM + Kastelans + Cawl, its one of the strongest offensive combos in the game, especially with the prevalence of cover and infantry swarms.
Armies taking tons of infantry is going to start getting more and more prevalent and Kastelans excel at killing them. The bigger the unit, the harder it is to hide.
Yup. In the worst case scenario, you gun down their infantry and have your infantry grab objectives.
lash92 wrote: Because for that to work you dont need a pure Mars Detachment, since their Dogma isn´t that useful. You could take Cawl + Bots and then make your troops Graia for psychic defense and if you have Dragoons make them Stygies for infiltrating etc.
This. I prefer a mixed detachment myself.
Though statistically speaking, Graia is the most winning Forgeworld. (The Rusty 17 is almost always Graia.)
dadamowsky wrote: That plus the fact, that Cawlstar is quite easy to counter by either killing the robots (this meta is very unfavorable for a T7- W6 vehicles - al it takes to take a model down are 3 Lootas shots passing), engaging them in combat, or by outscoring the list. Plus we've been playing with it for a year already and it becomes... Boring?
Dakkabots require more skill to pilot than most of the lists out there. A lot of things can go wrong. But it definitely is the strongest pure AdMech option. Anyhow, I find this makes for a more interesting game.
Of course, if you are going to a tourney, I recommend against building your list around a Cawlstar. Build it around a Styrix or Kastelan. Makes the list more idiot proof. Not to mention how much faster it will play.
Suzuteo wrote: If you're falling back on your Breachers to do CC, you are in a lot of trouble. My biggest issue with them is that they don't have a clearly defined role. If they had DS (Holy Retributor, anyone?), then they could act as super TEQs, but as it stands, they are a low mobility, non-flying Haywire shooter with Power Fists.
Agripinaa is actually becoming more appealing. Out of the three pure Forge World detachment options, I am coming to like them the most. (The other two being Stygies and Graia.) Agripinaa Brigades can have Dominus (Biosplicing), Manipulus, Enginseer (Eye), 3x Icarus Crawlers, 3x Servitors, 3x LasBallistarii, and a 6x Plasmaphron. It's like the scuttling horrors list.
Anyhow, I like 6 Ryza Destroyers. 4 Destroyers is the next step down, and I would only take it for "fitting into ruins" purposes.
Graia seems strong for the rusty 17 the denial option and survivability are great for supporting knights. It seems strong for improving infantry survivability but not buffing vehicles as much so your looking at a battalion not a brigade.
Stygies is the opposit its great for your backfield artillery but by the time your vanguard/ electropriest/infiltrator is in range its not gaining a benefit. While the strat can help in some deployments if you deploy 24" away its not enough even dragoons will not reliably hit their target. So it went from the best to a 50/50
Aggripinaa boosts every shoooting unit vs 1 vehicle a turn and provides significant benefit vs assault armies given the number of units we have with a high volume of firepower and the strat is really strong but hasn't received the testing it deserved due to kataphrons veing to costly pre CA18
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dadamowsky wrote: That made me thinking though... what would make Cawlstar work in your opinion? IMO the stratagem for ignoring the heavy penalty working for a whole unit, a better/longer buff from the Manipulus and more durable (or cheaper) troop choice would be a good start. The Datasmiths changing the protocols the same freaking turn, instead of giving freebies to the opponent, would be a huge improvement.
60-75pt dakkabots with 25% to 33% more you'd have the volume to survive and be competative however they wont do this so its a lost cause
@sutzeo rusty 17 might be the best statistically but its not really an admech list in the way the 32 isnt really a guard list. If you look at the lists rather than the headline figure they are not admech primarys
dadamowsky wrote: That made me thinking though... what would make Cawlstar work in your opinion? IMO the stratagem for ignoring the heavy penalty working for a whole unit, a better/longer buff from the Manipulus and more durable (or cheaper) troop choice would be a good start. The Datasmiths changing the protocols the same freaking turn, instead of giving freebies to the opponent, would be a huge improvement.
60-75pt dakkabots with 25% to 33% more you'd have the volume to survive and be competative however they wont do this so its a lost cause
@sutzeo rusty 17 might be the best statistically but its not really an admech list in the way the 32 isnt really a guard list. If you look at the lists rather than the headline figure they are not admech primarys
What? At 110 points, Dakkabots are extremely well-priced.
Sure. I was joking. Graia is statistically the best Forge World because it has the most useful stratagem for Enginseers and Rangers to pair with Knights. (I really do think AdMech is all about stratagem use.)
Are so how would you make cawl bots competative because their is a wealth of evidence they don't win. Which is not the same thing as saying they are bad. I certainly will take two bots but thats it.
So there are two questions:
1) Are Dakkabots competitive?
2) Are Dakkabots our most competitive option?
The answer to #1 is no. But that's because AdMech in general is not competitive in comparison to Eldar Soup and Imperium Soup. It has nothing to do with points and everything to do with rules. Soulburst is OP. Guardsmen are OP; Knights are excellent and present structural advantages as well.
The answer to #2 is yes. The highest ranked AdMech lists at BAO and SCO were Cawlstar lists. It's usually Cawlstar w/ 2x Icarus Crawlers + Loyal 32 + Knight.
I think admech are competative since CA18 however its about looking at what has improved. The data is in on bots they didnt change - kataphrons by comparison changed a lot and need reevaluateing.
If you look at the preliminary LVO list data the increase in admech use has certainly surprised some people but when you drop 3-400 pts its going to have an impact
U02dah4 wrote: I think admech are competative since CA18 however its about looking at what has improved. The data is in on bots they didnt change - kataphrons by comparison changed a lot and need reevaluateing.
If you look at the preliminary LVO list data the increase in admech use has certainly surprised some people but when you drop 3-400 pts its going to have an impact
Ooh, do you have a link to the lists? I haven’t seen them yet
The new GSC faction rules are a joke. Theyre pretty much 2 or 3 of other army rules rolled into one. Or theyre rules everyone else pays CP or has to field a unit in a rstricted area to take advantage of it. Not GSC they get all that gak for free -_-
Yeah what the hell is up with all the love they are showering on GSC? Can we get new AdMech, Grey Knight, and Necron codexes with this degree of attention too?
Honestly, in the GSC and Drukhari matchups, I am perfectly fine with them countering my Wrath of Mars. That is possibly 4 less Fire and Fade or some combat shenanigans to deal with.
Suzuteo wrote: Honestly, in the GSC and Drukhari matchups, I am perfectly fine with them countering my Wrath of Mars. That is possibly 4 less Fire and Fade or some combat shenanigans to deal with.
Hmmm notice the GSC vect strat is only 3cp instead of 4
Suzuteo wrote: Honestly, in the GSC and Drukhari matchups, I am perfectly fine with them countering my Wrath of Mars. That is possibly 4 less Fire and Fade or some combat shenanigans to deal with.
Hmmm notice the GSC vect strat is only 3cp instead of 4
They probably wrote the GSC Codex before the last FAQ too if recent releases are any indication, so the last balance changes don't affect the new Codex <.<.
And because the Codex releases so soon before the next FAQ they probably won't be doing anything about it until april, won't they ^^.
Sigh, I really wish the rules team would go back to the continuous balance updates and FAQ we had every few weeks back in 2017. But too bad that it seems like it was too much effort for too many players to check the FAQ website once a month, so we are now stuck with the current format. Still better than what we had before 8th, but a pretty massive step down from the initial months (remember how quick Stormraven spam got curbstombed? Wish they did that with Castellans and similar overperformers).
From what was revealed? Strong denial/ redirection/ counterdeploy horde army. Unless something goes terribly wrong in the points values, GSC will be on par with Orks IMO. And Vect will go up to 4 eventually.
Personally I think it's a good direction for factions design to take, which Orks and GSC (or Drukhari and Knights in the early stage) present. A strong leading idea with a twist coming from codex options, that are not undermined by a tightly gripped "internal balance." This means unfortunately the early codices to be less and less relevant, and unless receiving a rework, Admech or SM of all flavor, will lose a viability over new releases.
Was going to post a battle report, but it was a bit uneventful. I played a Raven Guard army. I rooted my Dakkabots on the first turn and shot a third of my opponent's army off the table, including a unit of Scouts, Primaris, Helverin, and half a unit of bikes. We called it then and there.
Next week, I am going to see if I can play a Tau Triptide list. (Here's hoping nothing goes wrong at work.)
Anyhow, this is what I am thinking for an AdMech gunline next month:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1074 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 190 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 884 6x Kastelan Robot - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Some key changes:
1) Dropped the Mortars and second Company Commander. I will keep them around for next week's Triptide matchup, but these guys have been underperforming a bit; it's hard to compare to the rest of the ridiculous artillery line.
2) Manipulus replaces Enginseer. He wasn't very useful in this list aside from repairing. 6" more range on those Dakkabots and Crawlers is extremely valuable. 15" range on Cawl's melta is also nice.
3) Added an Officer of the Fleet with a Dagger. Wulfey pointed this out to me, but apparently, there yet remains one Infantry Officer without a <REGIMENT> keyword. Because Dagger never got an errata, you can use it to place your Ryzaphrons safely in reserve. (Their biggest problem was always that they were liable to be shot off the table on turn one.)
I am furiously painting for the LVO right now. I have so many mans that are just flat out under detailed. ITC rules say your largest faction is your faction, and after 4 games with the infiltrators I was disappointed with how they played. They really need a brigade worth of CP available to do their thing. And a castellan is just too good right now. I could run a 1500 point admech list like Suzeto, but then I would be at the mercy of a bad go first roll against a solid 50% of the lists out there. So I decided to bring something a little less shooty, and more able to play the objectives game.
Spoiler:
Adeptus Mechanicus, Castellan, and Catachan - Jason Wolfe - 2000 points - 12CP - 24 drops
MARS has become STYGIES. Mars crawlers are good, but the role of the crawlers tends to just be attrition over 5 turns. Stygies lets my crawlers and infantry play much longer attrition game. 15 insta die rangers has become 30 omnispex rangers and 30 vanguard. Vanguard have strong synergies with Catachan mans and stygies should let my infantry survive long enough to be relevant. Infiltrators are gone because without WRATH they have about 50% more firepower than a vanguard squad, but MARS infiltrators die faster than STYGIES vanguard against riptides. Too many opponents were able to zone out my drop and force the 50 shot volley into something stupid. I added two astropaths and another company commander because 90 more points of admech didn't produce any firepower gains that mattered. The arquebuses just don't work in ITC because I can't count on never having to move yet also having LOS. This gives me 2 denies and the option to double buff that critical guard squad holding the game winning objective with +1 save and -1 to hit. Castellan got back his second cannon because the cannon really is better. If he dies turn 3, then at least he shot all his missiles and got twice as many cannon shots as the 4x missile variant. I don't have mortars because my mortar models suck and I wanted to run my heap of skitarii footmen models. One of the commanders is the WL because GrandStrategist+Kurovs is still the way to go. Give me 1 more rerolled invul on my knight and another 2CP over another 4 HP in repairs at best please.
@Ideasweasel
I have said it before, but Ynnari is the scariest matchup we have. It's not the Dark Reapers or Shining Spears themselves though. It's all the redeploy and move after shooting shenanigans that they have. You really need to whittle them down over a long game. You also need to play fast to run the clock out on them; Ynnari play slow, even the faster players.
@Wulfey
I think bringing a Raven Castellan or a Krast Styrix is the way to go. If things go bad on turn one in my list, I am reduced to shooting infantry, capping objectives, and hoping I come out ahead in VPs.
I personally think mixed detachment is superior to pure detachment, and that includes either 4x Dakkabots or 10x Infiltrators and some Crawlers; Graia for deny, Ryza for the Kataphrons with the Dagger trick. But if you must do pure FW, Stygies or Agripinaa seem to be the best at 2000 points, but Reapers may be a huge problem for the former. One nice thing about Infiltrators is that they can force the Eldar to play conservatively with the Reapers, lest you drop the Infiltrators and delete them.
Movement trays are definitely a must with so many infantry. To be honest, beyond turn one, they don't really need too much cover.
Wulfey wrote: I am furiously painting for the LVO right now. I have so many mans that are just flat out under detailed. ITC rules say your largest faction is your faction, and after 4 games with the infiltrators I was disappointed with how they played. They really need a brigade worth of CP available to do their thing. And a castellan is just too good right now. I could run a 1500 point admech list like Suzeto, but then I would be at the mercy of a bad go first roll against a solid 50% of the lists out there. So I decided to bring something a little less shooty, and more able to play the objectives game.
Spoiler:
Adeptus Mechanicus, Castellan, and Catachan - Jason Wolfe - 2000 points - 12CP - 24 drops
MARS has become STYGIES. Mars crawlers are good, but the role of the crawlers tends to just be attrition over 5 turns. Stygies lets my crawlers and infantry play much longer attrition game.
15 insta die rangers has become 30 omnispex rangers and 30 vanguard. Vanguard have strong synergies with Catachan mans and stygies should let my infantry survive long enough to be relevant.
Infiltrators are gone because without WRATH they have about 50% more firepower than a vanguard squad, but MARS infiltrators die faster than STYGIES vanguard against riptides. Too many opponents were able to zone out my drop and force the 50 shot volley into something stupid.
I added two astropaths and another company commander because 90 more points of admech didn't produce any firepower gains that mattered. The arquebuses just don't work in ITC because I can't count on never having to move yet also having LOS. This gives me 2 denies and the option to double buff that critical guard squad holding the game winning objective with +1 save and -1 to hit.
Castellan got back his second cannon because the cannon really is better. If he dies turn 3, then at least he shot all his missiles and got twice as many cannon shots as the 4x missile variant.
I don't have mortars because my mortar models suck and I wanted to run my heap of skitarii footmen models.
One of the commanders is the WL because GrandStrategist+Kurovs is still the way to go. Give me 1 more rerolled invul on my knight and another 2CP over another 4 HP in repairs at best please.
In progress
Spoiler:
I love Skitarii heavy lists. However I have to ask why none of the special weapons.
@Wulfey
I think bringing a Raven Castellan or a Krast Styrix is the way to go. If things go bad on turn one in my list, I am reduced to shooting infantry, capping objectives, and hoping I come out ahead in VPs.
After my today local I'd like to interest you in a Krast Crusader idea, with a Headman's Mark, RFBC and Ironstorm. It won't be as efficient as a Raven Castellan point for point (as everything is wounding on 4-), but it has a significant firepower, is able to kill any W10+ model you give him, and is absolutely devastating against Titanics. No wonder, a mere HStubber deals 3 wounds each failed save. What's cool in this setup is you're not as attached to the luck in damage roll, as basically everything is at least 2 (or 3 vs Titanics) flat damage. He's also cheaper to maintain - Rotate for a single CP is a significant advantage. At least for me, as I've been always very short on CPs in my other games (but I refuse to run IG). One thing he's a sore loser at and can't be improved - Oathbreaker's ability to point and kill enemy Warlord.
On a side note - DSed Corpuscarii are freaking awesome . I whined a lot about the new Manipulus, but I guess he might be useful with the Solar Flare as DSers support - I really missed this +1" at times. A pitty I'd have to take Drills and Fulgurites in Lucius then, as that's a waste.
Yup Crusader is a pretty tasty platform for this. Even the gatlingun is nice. Sure you will be wounding on 5s but a flat 4 dmg against other knights is nothing to sneeze at.
Even with a +1 to the charge I feel like it's to unreliable and ti much of investment to pull it of imo.
This has been discussed before. The big problem with Krast Crusader is that it has to pick between wound output and durability. Crusader has to take Ion Bulwark, and he then has to pick between Headsman's Mark or Endless Fury (without rerolls); IMO, Raven Crusader is better in spite of the fact that Krast Crusader is more meta relevant. On the other hand, Krast Styrix has its Ion Bulwark built into its profile and so he can take the Krast WLT for rerolls as well as Headsman's Mark. Furthermore, he's cheaper, can fight as well as he can shoot, and the Volkite Chieorovile profile is pretty much ideal for shooting Titanics, with fixed 5 shots, exploding wounds of 6, and D6+2 damage.
Also, picked up a Theta-7 Acquisitus box today. The new HQ is mostly easy build. He's on a 50mm base, so I think they do consider him to be like a Dominus. Very impressed with the terrain as well; I think it's the same as the Moon Base Kalisus sprues. I am building a new Knight and intend to use some of the smaller pieces for basing.
Suzuteo wrote: This has been discussed before. The big problem with Krast Crusader is that it has to pick between wound output and durability. Crusader has to take Ion Bulwark, and he then has to pick between Headsman's Mark or Endless Fury (without rerolls); IMO, Raven Crusader is better in spite of the fact that Krast Crusader is more meta relevant. On the other hand, Krast Styrix has its Ion Bulwark built into its profile and so he can take the Krast WLT for rerolls as well as Headsman's Mark. Furthermore, he's cheaper, can fight as well as he can shoot, and the Volkite Chieorovile profile is pretty much ideal for shooting Titanics, with fixed 5 shots, exploding wounds of 6, and D6+2 damage.
Problem with the Stryx is imo that it is quite swingy. Having 5 shots which only wound half of the time and have to go through a 3++ can very often mean dealing 0 dmg.
Suzuteo wrote: This has been discussed before. The big problem with Krast Crusader is that it has to pick between wound output and durability. Crusader has to take Ion Bulwark, and he then has to pick between Headsman's Mark or Endless Fury (without rerolls); IMO, Raven Crusader is better in spite of the fact that Krast Crusader is more meta relevant. On the other hand, Krast Styrix has its Ion Bulwark built into its profile and so he can take the Krast WLT for rerolls as well as Headsman's Mark. Furthermore, he's cheaper, can fight as well as he can shoot, and the Volkite Chieorovile profile is pretty much ideal for shooting Titanics, with fixed 5 shots, exploding wounds of 6, and D6+2 damage.
Problem with the Stryx is imo that it is quite swingy. Having 5 shots which only wound half of the time and have to go through a 3++ can very often mean dealing 0 dmg.
I concur. Can't say I took the Styrix to an event (as I simply don't have the model) but from my proxy tests he's a big hit or miss. If you are working a poor save army, or without a 4+ invulns, he does fine. But he absolutely whiffed against the other Knights, which makes him a pass on my Knights-heavy local meta. Or Nids, having 4++ on top of the horde and smite spam; 18" flamer and his loadout is not going to help to keep the distance. Magnus is a big no-no pairing as well, Styrix simply lack the shots to break the big guy (although it has been ages since I saw Magnus in actual play). Stock 4++ in shooting and 5++ in melee is a big boon, as he can be suited with other relics and WLT, but his weaponry... not so much.
Every anti-Knight gun is swingy. But you're trying to get that outlier damage. If you are dealing average damage, you will NEVER kill the other Knight. An AGC, even with Krast, is virtually NEVER going to kill the other Knight.
Problem with the Crusader is that you won't even be in range for the first turn with the AGC, and the Volkite is ~20% more efficient than your RFBC. Furthermore, you're just going to be shut out against a pure Knights list. There is no way your Crusader will be able to fight a Gallant, so he becomes a liability rather than a strength. In contrast, a Styrix actually beats a Gallant one on one due to his 4++ in fighting (which even a Gallant does not get) and souped up siege claw.
In short, a Crusader pretty much can only shoot, and a Castellan is always going to outshoot a Crusader. A Gallant is always going to outfight a Crusader. But a Styrix can kill a Gallant and is comparable in performance to a Crusader in early shooting; if you can close the distance and charge or score a lucky round of shooting, you can actually beat the Castellan.
Its why i think the rfbc is the wrong choice on the crusader. The melta option is cheaper and better in the knight match up.
Sure the gallant will win in CC but it should be debanded by the time it gets there.
The best way to think of a styrix is more of an upgraded errant.
As to CC between a gallant and styrix well its who hits first a lot of the time deband a styrix and its not hitting back that hard
Also if your crusader is only shooting your not useing it effectively its feet are still quality infantry killers / great at tieing up/ damageing light vehicles. Sure its not great vs other knights but that doesnt mean it does nothing. I've lost count of the tau i've stomped. Knights are only 10 -16% of the meta. And even that castellan is going to have guardsmen you can stomp.
U02dah4 wrote: Its why i think the rfbc is the wrong choice on the crusader. The melta option is cheaper and better in the knight match up.
Sure the gallant will win in CC but it should be debanded by the time it gets there.
The best way to think of a styrix is more of an upgraded errant.
As to CC between a gallant and styrix well its who hits first a lot of the time deband a styrix and its not hitting back that hard
Also if your crusader is only shooting your not useing it effectively its feet are still quality infantry killers / great at tieing up/ damageing light vehicles. Sure its not great vs other knights but that doesnt mean it does nothing. I've lost count of the tau i've stomped. Knights are only 10 -16% of the meta. And even that castellan is going to have guardsmen you can stomp.
We can ignore damage charts any time we like for 1cp, imperials dont have that. The krast strategm also allows the styrix melee hits to explode on a 6+ for 1cp if you really need to make sure you take out whatever is in your face.
To clarify, I am talking about a Taranis with Knight Seneschal WLT and any relic other than Sanctuary (so 5++). If they take the Sanctuary on Gallant (4++), then the Gallant has a slight advantage.
U02dah4 wrote: Doesnt the styrix xlaw have -1 to hit so wouldnt that be 5 max?
Incidentally, a Reaper Chainsword actually outperforms the Siege Claw in a straight up fight against a Gallant. Turning a 4+ to hit into 3+ (with reroll) is better than turning a 3+ to wound to 2+. You also save the 25 points you pay for the Rad-cleanser, but it's great against infantry, so it's 25 points I usually don't mind paying.
U02dah4 wrote: Its why i think the rfbc is the wrong choice on the crusader. The melta option is cheaper and better in the knight match up.
Sure the gallant will win in CC but it should be debanded by the time it gets there.
The best way to think of a styrix is more of an upgraded errant.
As to CC between a gallant and styrix well its who hits first a lot of the time deband a styrix and its not hitting back that hard
Also if your crusader is only shooting your not useing it effectively its feet are still quality infantry killers / great at tieing up/ damageing light vehicles. Sure its not great vs other knights but that doesnt mean it does nothing. I've lost count of the tau i've stomped. Knights are only 10 -16% of the meta. And even that castellan is going to have guardsmen you can stomp.
Agreed. Alas, by the time you get in range for the melta effect, you might as well be getting ready to fight. A Styrix is basically an Errant, but with a much better gun.
0XFallen wrote: Now that the Manipulus seems to be for sale, any confirmation on his base size?
It's 50mm. I mentioned this in a previous post.
He looks a lot cooler than I expected. His build is also well-designed. The body is primarily three large pieces, with the back and arms piece covering the seam lines of the two halves of the body pieces. Much less fiddly than other AdMech models.
0XFallen wrote: Now that the Manipulus seems to be for sale, any confirmation on his base size?
It's 50mm. I mentioned this in a previous post.
He looks a lot cooler than I expected. His build is also well-designed. The body is primarily three large pieces, with the back and arms piece covering the seam lines of the two halves of the body pieces. Much less fiddly than other AdMech models.
I suspect I will remove the mechadendrites on his front and fill in the holes with green stuff (maybe making them into some more wierd bubbles to kind of match the chemical set on his back...), and maybe also remove the screen he has there as well, I think this will give him a much cleaner body and I think it may look better?
Automatically Appended Next Post: How are people thinking of running him (yes I know he may not be super competative for his price, but it will be nice to run somthing other than a dominus/enginseer once in a while?
I was thinking Transonic Cannon, because he can then move & advance and still fire without penalty, going (6+1)" move + (D6+1)" advance (if you use the bolster warriors) then firing a damage 2 flamer could be quite mean.
0XFallen wrote: Now that the Manipulus seems to be for sale, any confirmation on his base size?
It's 50mm. I mentioned this in a previous post.
He looks a lot cooler than I expected. His build is also well-designed. The body is primarily three large pieces, with the back and arms piece covering the seam lines of the two halves of the body pieces. Much less fiddly than other AdMech models.
I suspect I will remove the mechadendrites on his front and fill in the holes with green stuff (maybe making them into some more wierd bubbles to kind of match the chemical set on his back...), and maybe also remove the screen he has there as well, I think this will give him a much cleaner body and I think it may look better?
Automatically Appended Next Post: How are people thinking of running him (yes I know he may not be super competative for his price, but it will be nice to run somthing other than a dominus/enginseer once in a while?
I was thinking Transonic Cannon, because he can then move & advance and still fire without penalty, going (6+1)" move + (D6+1)" advance (if you use the bolster warriors) then firing a damage 2 flamer could be quite mean.
I will run him in not competetiv games to advance with my infantry, mostly vanguards, some ruststalkers to get at least close to our 7E feeling.
Just leave the plugs open without tendrils, they may be used to connect with other machines, you dont need to fill them up
I'm going to test him on Ryza Destroyers (with Flamers), and Drill-hidden Ryza Fulgurites (Ryza for rerolling 1 to wound in Fight) tomorrow. As I'm going to battle DG without a LoW, I guess I need strong shooting and a lot of mortals. Graia and Assassins as the supplement force to curb his psychic.
Do I believe he will be the key part? Nah... but I gave him the Ryza WLT, and making his flamer an Assault D6 S5 -1 3 damage. I guess that will provoke giggles
I think Manipulus is a huge force multiplier for a Cawlstar list. Another 6" of shooting range or 2" Advance is really useful. He is definitely overpriced for any other sort of list though. I take mine with the Transonic.
Game 1: Near mirror match against Kyle. He has 3x custodes bikers and a catachan brigade and a castellan. He has +1 to go first. I debate placing my castellan as last drop 48" or 60" away. I should have put 60". He gets first turn and I roll like crap on my saves on my castellan. My castellan dies top of turn 2. I try to grind out and stay competitive but at the end he would have tabled me on turn 6. Game ends turn 4 with him winning. If i had put my knight 60" then he would not have been able to put his Cawl's Wrath into my knight first turn. This would have been much safer and kept me in the game. EDIT: also, 2x stygies icarus can fail to kill a 10 man guard squad, but 3 of them firing at a bike captain with a 4++ can kill that bike captain. Accuracy is a big deal
Game 2: THis was legit my worst warhammer game experience. I am playing a pure dark eldar player who legit has no idea what his rules are. He plays unbelievably slow and refuses to roll his saves. I get second turn. He does some damage, my counter strike kills a lot. The start of my second turn starts with 10 minutes left to go in the round. I win by 5 points but this was complete bs. He endless tries to cheese my on distances even after I give him every last benefit of the doubt, giving him all kinds of 3" stuff to hold objectives when he wasn't close. He even tried to reroll his 2++ relic that says NO REROLLS and I missed it. We had to call over a judge so I could explain to him that no, if he uses a CP to reroll one of the dice on a charge then he doesn't also get to use the reroll charges rule on his wyches since that would be rerolling a reroll.
Game 3: I am up against mechanized orks. I deploy in a near perfect defensive castle to absorb what I assume is a devastating charge. He gets first turn. He kills 2 bricks of gaurd and some other random guys. My castellan aces 1 of his 2 gorknaughts without firing his plasma cannon. My rangers and vanguard clear out his entire advance of 20 boys and 2 of the new cars. He concedes before my turn is over. Judge has to come over and help us score out what happens on a concede this early. EDIT: also, thorugh some key infantry pulling, I made sure that the "closest enemy model" during his pile ins limited his DA-JUMP 20 boy brick could only land on 1 group of infantry. EDIT: also WTF the ork mek warlord can shoot 2d6 shots at 2d6str that do d6 damage at -5. That is lunacy! Luckily he rolling like crap and managed to only get 2 hits through the shield and only did 1 damage each time even with rerolls.
Something key I learned from Brian, the best player I know, buy a Wyvern. They are the best model in the IMPERIUM. And the arti detachment is better than the infantry conclave. I know this too late for LVO, but it is something to keep in mind. Brian runs a top8 at LVO tau list. He says the Wyvern changes the matchup from Tau > Imperium to Imperium > Tau because 1 wyvern when double shooting can kill a full 10 stack of drones per turn when you feed it CP.
Overall I am generally pleased with my list. I think my STYGIES CATACHAN RAVEN soup can at least play the game with the best lists. Big takeaways are:
always put your castellan 60" away in a mirror buy a wyvern stygies is really good at standing there catachan mans is a supremely flexible detachment I am going to lose on secondaries every game EDIT: my movement trays are the best, they save many minutes during deployment
The reason why the catachan arty battalion wyvern is so good:
A base wyvern is 4d6 mortar non-los shots hitting on 4s, rerolling to wound, 48" range.
If you have the arti detachment, then you have access to a strategem for 2CP to allow it to shoot twice.
If you are catachan, then you reroll your lowest of the 4d6.
If you spend 1CP, then 6s to wound are -1 near your Field Commander.
If you take the relic, then that field commander can let the wyvern ignore cover.
If you spend 2CP, then you can let the wyvern reroll all failed hit rolls all turn.
So a bully buffed wvyern is:
8d6 shots, rerolling two of them, full rerolls to hit, rerolling to wound, ignore cover, 6s are -1.
Three catachan mortar teams kill 2.6 shield drones a turn
3*3.5*0.5*0.5*0.5*0.67*3
One fully buffed wyvern kills 5.5 per turn
(6*3.5 + 2*4)*0.75*0.75*0.5*0.67
Three catachan mortar teams kill 0.8 dark reapers a turn
3*3.5*0.5*0.33*0.16*3
One fully buffed wyvern kills ~7.4 dark reapers per turn
(6*3.5 + 2*4)*0.75*0.88*0.4
That math does seem impressive. It does however rely on 2CP to get from half of 5.5 drones to the full 5.5.
Without CP the Wyvern is about as good as mortars against drones, and with CP you could be talking about 5 command points in a turn. Seems steep, but then again, if you don't have a Castellan to dump CP into, seems sensible.
That math does seem impressive. It does however rely on 2CP to get from half of 5.5 drones to the full 5.5.
Without CP the Wyvern is about as good as mortars against drones, and with CP you could be talking about 5 command points in a turn. Seems steep, but then again, if you don't have a Castellan to dump CP into, seems sensible.
If that's the case, shouldn't the Cadians end up with more hits in the end?
ph34r wrote: Why Cadians? Their ability does not help you if you pay 2CP to reroll ALL to hit rolls.
I mean, Wyverns are gonna sit still anyway, which means you're gonna get the rerolling of 1's To Hit. I think that would average out to more shots landing than getting a reroll on a single dice for the number of shots.
Interesting point on the Wyvern. I think that's much more impactful to bring one than to bring 3x2 Mortars to thin Drones. -2 CP for relic and formation, -3 CP each turn for the buffs; another 2 CP to shoot again. You probably only need to do it once or twice though.
I'm relatively new to AdMech. My local group is going to kick-off a 1500 point round robin league next month using ITC missions. I've only played a few AdMech games, and no ITC missions. Looking for general tactics and some advice on potential lists.
My local crew features a drone-spamming Tau player, a multi-threat Ork player (high-toughness Gorkanauts, ranged artillery, and boy spam), an armor Guard player, a Space Wolves melee player, and a Nids player. With AdMech troops being both inexpensive and fairly resilient, I think I may be able to grab and hold objectives while using long-range fires to shoot opponents off their objectives. A key dilemma I face is including high-Str shooting for armored models or prioritizing the ability to pick off objective holders at range.
- Troops -
3x5 Rangers w/ Data Tether
2x8 Vanguard w/ Data Tether
- Heavy -
2x Neutronager
1x Icarus Array
Cadian Spearhead
- HQ -
Company Commander (Kirov's Aquila for -1 CP)
- Heavy -
2x Basilisks w/ Stubbers
2x3 Mortar Teams
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
Knight Crusader (Gatling & Thermal, Sainted Ion for -1CP, Ion Bulwark for -1 CP)
List 2: AAA/Anti-Infantry, 6 CP, 1502 points
Spoiler:
As List 1, but trade the Neutronagers for Icarus Arrays and add an Icarus Autocannon to the Knight.
List 3: Gallant Distraction, 6 CP, 1503 points
Spoiler:
As List 2, but drop the data-tethers from the Rangers, add 2x Dragoons, and trade the Crusader for a stock Gallant. Possible Landstrider WLT and either Sainted Ion or Ravager relics.
- Troops -
3x5 Rangers
2x8 Vanguard w/ Data Tether
- Elite -
5x Infiltrator
- Fast Attack -
3x Dragoons
- Heavy -
2x Neutronager
1x Icarus Array
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
Knight Crusader (Gatling & Thermal, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Sainted Ion for -1CP, Ion Bulwark for -1 CP)
The Tau and Guard players are hard hitters; I'd like to give them a good show without running roughshod over anyone. Open questions:
1. Which is better across matchups:
- Beyond Line-of-Sight mortar and earthshaker shooting for added anti-infantry, high-Str anti-tank?
- Dragoon melee threat and potential disruption to adversary charging plans?
2. Preferred WLT and relics for the Crusader:
- Sainted Ion and Ion Bulwark for survivability, using Rotate Ion Shields, Machine Spirit Resurgent, and the stratagem for applying the RR 1's blessing?
- "First Knight" WLT and Endless Fury to increase lethality, with Ion Shields and Machine Spirit Resurgent?
3. For stratagems yielding relics and WLTs, do I have to specify those in the submitted list, or before each matchup?
4. Better AdMech relic+WLT traits?
5. Preferred load-out for the infiltrators given this meta?
Anything else I'm missing?
For reference:
I have 2x Dakkabots and 2x more in the gray pile of shame. No other models at hand apart from extra Skitarri and Infiltrators. Kataphrons are out unfortunately for the moment as a result.
@wulfey I’ve struggled against dark reapers but perhaps a wyvern is the answer I need.
So you just need a guard battalion and then declare one of the company commanders a warlord (using CP for the vigilus detachment) and then just keep him near it and throw CP at it....and dead dark reapers follow?
Battle report between my AdMech and a competitive ITC Tau list. (My opponent dropped out of LVO because he was not working during the government shutdown.)
My list:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1074 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 190 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 884 6x Kastelan Robot - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
3x Broadside - 6x High-yield Missile Pod, 6x Smart Missile System
1x Riptide - Heavy Burst Cannon, 2x Smart Missile System, Advanced Targeting System
1x Riptide - Heavy Burst Cannon, 2x Smart Missile System, Advanced Targeting System
1x Riptide - Heavy Burst Cannon, 2x Smart Missile System, Advanced Targeting System
33? Shield Drones
Tau Battalion 2x Cadre Fireblade
3x5 Fire Warrior
Deployment
My opponent won the roll off for deployment. The map is Dawn of War and the scenario is Crucible of Champions. I deploy first and have fewer units.
I went with Old School, Recon, and Marked for Death (3x Riptides, Broadside). He went with Kingslayer, Headhunter, and Marked for Death (2x Crawlers, Kastelans, Kataphrons).
The board was urban, with multiple ruins on both sides, and one central ruin commanding the center objective. Lower obstacles flank the center. Given the short deployment, we knew there was no getting range on the opponent (which is an option for me thanks to the Manipulus) or hiding. So I deployed aggressively to seize control of the center, opting to protect my infantry. One Guardsmen and Dominus formed my left; Cawl, Dominus, Kastelans, and Crawlers with two Guardsmen, Vanguard, and CC formed my center; two Guardsmen, Straken, and MiniPriest my right. He deployed for the alpha strike, a giant ball in the center, supposing his only chance was to pillow fort with his Drones and knock me out right away on his turn one.
My perspective:
His perspective:
I finished deploying first, and I won the roll. I decide to go first. My opponent SEIZED THE INITIATIVE!
Round 1
I take Shroudpsalm and forgot to roll for Mars.
Turn 1
My opponent 5x markerlights my Kastelans. He moves the Riptides to his right to gain LOS and pours shots into them, killing four. He then dumps missiles at my Crawlers, killing one.
Turn 2 - Me
I advance and MMM virtually everything onto objectives. I consolidated the two Guardsmen on my right flank so I can MMM my Straken without worrying about leaving any infantry behind; they are out of LOS. I use Strafing Run, root my Kastelans, and Wrath of Mars, killing two Fire Warrior units. I Doctrina my Crawlers and kill a third Fire Warrior unit.
In hindsight, it looked really bad, but he made a key mistake. He should have started shooting Guardsmen with his Missiles right away. But he was trying to win it outright. I took 4/5 objectives and killed more units than he did.
3-7 (my favor)
Round 2
I roll snake eyes. Iron Soul and Electromancer. Lol.
Turn 1
My opponent misses his markerlights and moves two of his Riptides out extremely far (out of Drone protection range) to gain LOS on my Kastelans. He rolls poorly and does not kill one. He realizes that he has lost and passes, letting me have the round.
Turn 2 - Me
My Kastelans delete another two units of Fire Warriors, which moved out into the open to try to get Markerlights on me. My Kataphrons deep strike on the far left and pour plasma into two of the unprotected Riptides, killing both. My Guardsmen solidify control over the objectives. My big blob on the right advances and MMMs into his center, leaving the Vanguard to hold the right objective; I control all five objectives and am in kissing distance of his Drone blob.
Final score is 7-16, with me winning decisively.
Lessons: 1) Guardsmen. Guardsmen. Guardsmen. Bring them with Vanguard. I cannot say it enough times.
2) Officer of the Fleet is the Imperium Taxi Service. It's amazing strong with Ryzaphrons, and nobody expects it.
3) Manipulus is actually quite handy. Definitely overpriced though. I think 60-70 points is ideal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Red Acolyte
See the battle report that I just posted for an example of the most competitive Tau matchup.
To answer your questions:
1. Some of us are discussing bringing one Wyvern to kill Drones. Stygies Dragoons can work in some matchups, but they have fallen out of favor given their need to footslog across the board, which is in some situations is awful.
2. I prefer the lone Krast Styrix to the Crusader myself. But if you do bring a Crusader, I suppose your best bet is AGC + RFBC with Headsman's Mark and Ion Bulwark.
3. No. You only need to stipulate the ones that come free with your Warlord.
4. Monitor Malevolus and Necromechanic are our best WLTs. The only unambiguously good Relic is the Agripinaa Eye; decent runners-up include Pimp Cane, Graia Pimp Hat, Raiment (for Cawlstar), Tentacle Rape Machine, Phosphoenix, and Weapon XCIX.
5. Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads. Make them Mars, stack Wrath of Mars and Doctrina on them.
The Manipulus definitely seems a bit overpriced and it sounds like they were working off the Dominus's old points, hopefully the next big FAQ brings him down to 70 pts or so, which seems about right for him.
In terms of usage though I think he's definitely viable as either a defensive backline support giving your Kastelans and Destroyers extra range to stay out of 36" range of the opponent's firing line while also getting 11" flamers for your Destroyers, giving assault armies a rough time. Walking him up with dragoons as a movement buffer and healer doesn't sound bad and with the movement buff I feel like he can make charges for priests coming out of drills easier with good positioning. Definitely worth experimenting with.
Also on an unrelated note, what's everyone's opinions on infiltrators? CA 2018 gave them a small point drop and if I get the Manipulus KT box running 7 of them with taser goads sounds like a nice bit of anti horde. Are they worth running as non Mars?
Mr. Funktastic wrote: The Manipulus definitely seems a bit overpriced and it sounds like they were working off the Dominus's old points, hopefully the next big FAQ brings him down to 70 pts or so, which seems about right for him.
In terms of usage though I think he's definitely viable as either a defensive backline support giving your Kastelans and Destroyers extra range to stay out of 36" range of the opponent's firing line while also getting 11" flamers for your Destroyers, giving assault armies a rough time. Walking him up with dragoons as a movement buffer and healer doesn't sound bad and with the movement buff I feel like he can make charges for priests coming out of drills easier with good positioning. Definitely worth experimenting with.
Also on an unrelated note, what's everyone's opinions on infiltrators? CA 2018 gave them a small point drop and if I get the Manipulus KT box running 7 of them with taser goads sounds like a nice bit of anti horde. Are they worth running as non Mars?
I've tried a unit of 5 with my Metalica on and off. They need flechette/taser. Most of mine are stubber/sword and you can tell they don't do as much, even against their supposed favored matchup of things like marines.
I feel like you need about 10, a small unit of 5 doesn't do much. 10 with flechette and tasers would make quick work of screens and dish out a ton of wounds in melee to most targets I think.
@Mr. Funktastic
I've not had playing time with Infiltrators (I have owned only 5 as of KT: Arena haha). But they look good on paper. An anti-infantry unit with an almost perfect profile for the job, especially when they get into melee.
That being said, your opponent can play around them (which may be a good thing, since it makes them less aggressive).
I am thinking of running a unit of 8, actually. 10 might be overkill for the sorts of things they do. DS them in, pop Doctrina and/or Wrath, shoot an enemy infantry unit or two off the board. Doesn't need to be too strong a unit. Even stuff like Guardsmen or Guardians are important.
I feel like they would be an ideal harassment/troop killer unit that would likely change how your opponent reacts. Even if they don't get the 9" charge off their shooting is probably threatening enough to whatever their ideal targets would be and force your opponent to try and answer them anyway. My only gripe is that they're only T3/4+. They're mostly robotic and bigger than Rangers/Vanguard, they should at least be T4! Other than that though, they look cool and at the very least it sounds like they're a legit tactical option.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: I feel like they would be an ideal harassment/troop killer unit that would likely change how your opponent reacts. Even if they don't get the 9" charge off their shooting is probably threatening enough to whatever their ideal targets would be and force your opponent to try and answer them anyway. My only gripe is that they're only T3/4+. They're mostly robotic and bigger than Rangers/Vanguard, they should at least be T4! Other than that though, they look cool and at the very least it sounds like they're a legit tactical option.
Yeah, definitely glass cannons. Just gotta drop em, pump em, shoot a unit or two off the board, and let them eat las fire and die the next round.
A question regarding the new Tech-Priest Manipulus:
The text on his profile states "...a single model armed with a magnarail lance, an Omnissian Staff and mechadendrites" "this model may replace its magnarail lance with a transonic cannon"
the points boxes under the profile state he is 90 points INCLUDING WARGEAR
however the Magnarail lance is 5 points per weapon, and the transonic cannon is 0 points.
if you swap to the transonic cannon would the model only cost 85 points?
If you guys are watching the stream, Round 5 is going to be between AdMech vs. Tau. AdMech (Priests, Drills, Dragoons) + Guard + Castellans vs Triptides + Tripsides.
UPDATE: Crucible. Tau deployed aggressively. AdMech too. AdMech seized and wiped him. Not even close. (It's funny because it's like the opposite of what happened in my last BR.)
Anyhow, AdMech is actually doing really well. 3x 5-0 lists so far. I think we're a T1 army now. Lol.
UPDATE 2: HOLY CRAP. The AdMech player didn't know Lone Knights don't get Traditions. He advanced his Raven Castellan and discovered he can't shoot.
UPDATE 3: So Brian allowed Justin to take back his 3 CP spent on Order of Companions. But he doesn't get to shoot. Crazy controversial. The head judge is parked at the table now.
The text on his profile states "...a single model armed with a magnarail lance, an Omnissian Staff and mechadendrites"
"this model may replace its magnarail lance with a transonic cannon"
the points boxes under the profile state he is 90 points INCLUDING WARGEAR
however the Magnarail lance is 5 points per weapon, and the transonic cannon is 0 points.
if you swap to the transonic cannon would the model only cost 85 points?
any thoughts?
This is exactly how I read it too, but Battlescribe and some peeps here seem to have missed the “including wargear” bit or else I’m misreading it myself somewhere.
Finished painting him while watching the LVO stream:
I think he actually looks pretty good. From the front anyway. Not enthusiastic about how long those tentacles and antennae are going to stay in place. One of each broke off during building. Had to reattach them.
Hardest part was the eye lens. It's pretty big, so I have to do some glare effect, but it had an overhanging shadow too.
Good job Suzuteo. He does like like he’s going to lose many a fight with a foam tray though. All the spindly bits! My dragoons have lost countless battles and antennae just from light travel haha
It's just a Hefty container. I screwed some cheap steel baking pans to the bottom. (Much cheaper than steel plates, and they came with holes.)
As for my bases, I use HDF or sealed MDF (cheaper in some sizes and shapes). I drill a hole, coat the sides with super glue, then push the magnet up from the bottom. The glue on the sides of the hole and the primer at the top hold the magnet in place; super glue's greatest weakness is when you twist or turn it. I have not yet had a magnet bust on me in this manner.
Pomguo wrote: This is exactly how I read it too, but Battlescribe and some peeps here seem to have missed the “including wargear” bit or else I’m misreading it myself somewhere.
It confused the flying feth out of me, since it is not very intuitive to give gear pts cost if it does not matter in any way.
But it already is changed (and should already be released if I'm not mistaken).
Yeah, there were also quite a few 5-1 AdMech. Justin Lois made it into Top 12; he was #3 seed, actually.
So yeah, all you people boohooing AdMech post-CA really need to get some more games in. AdMech are incredibly efficient shooting. Combine them with Guard, and you have fewer weaknesses than most lists. In a tourney setting though, you may need to bring a Raven Castellan or Krast Styrix, possibly a Crusader, to improve consistency.
0XFallen wrote: Sure, with a full dragoon squad, which is way too cp efficient, castellan and guard, I believe its the same guy which was in the top list a month ago.
I think that was a different guy. Someone in the Nordic countries, if I recall correctly. He also had Drills and Priests. A Stygies army.
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah, there were also quite a few 5-1 AdMech. Justin Lois made it into Top 12; he was #3 seed, actually.
So yeah, all you people boohooing AdMech post-CA really need to get some more games in. AdMech are incredibly efficient shooting. Combine them with Guard, and you have fewer weaknesses than most lists. In a tourney setting though, you may need to bring a Raven Castellan or Krast Styrix, possibly a Crusader, to improve consistency.
0XFallen wrote: Sure, with a full dragoon squad, which is way too cp efficient, castellan and guard, I believe its the same guy which was in the top list a month ago.
I think that was a different guy. Someone in the Nordic countries, if I recall correctly. He also had Drills and Priests. A Stygies army.
I for instance, dont say that admech is weak post CA. My major problem regarding the play scene though, is that I am not a huge fan of soup currently, as there are only upsides to souping and want to see how much a monocodex can do, some might say that admech is a newer faction, which is why we still have a lot of weaknesses, but in 7E we had a lot of anwsers against tanks (arquebi, arc weaponry, neutronlaser) and had mobility through phosphor, dunestrider, scout.
I can live with a lot of changes though, that is only if I dont look at lore, because admech currently as a faction doesnt make sense if you compare both, which saddens me because admech has so much potential. Arcrifles might be good for example, but they are also cheap and not the advanced technology I was expecting in this faction. Best example are still ruststalkers, they have grenades on their models, are assassins, after a delay they melt through armor, which is not the case apparently. /rantover
Admech might be good, but I dont like that they just make everything cheaper, I dont want to play a horde army, but squishy elite army that have good niche units and the best tech in the imperium.
Sadly, if everyone played mono-faction, Eldar would curb stomp every tournament.
I really miss 7E myself. I started playing in the last months of that era. But even then, the only viable way you could play AdMech was as a multi-codex army. Remember, we were three codexes: Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii, and Imperial Knights. And WarCon was the way to go.
Well, actually, on second thought, there was a moment when Skitarii + Flesh Tearers worked. Just hitch a ride in Drop Pods and melt everything with plasma. When that got banned, you had Scout Bunkers. Then that got banned and everyone did WarCon with the old school Cawlstar (Cawl + Secutarii).
Hey everyone, first time posting in here so be gentle. My group has got back into 8th edition after mostly playing 6th and 7th edition. We have decided to stick with 1250 points for our games and focus on learning. Matched play, FAQ, and CA. So I am dusting off my favorite army and sinking back into this amazing game.
I have two lists I have been tweaking for the past week and playing around with the units. Can y'all give me your opinions on which is best?
Sicarian Infiltrators [6 PL, 90pts] . Infiltrator Princeps . . Stubcarbine and Power Sword: Power Sword, Stubcarbine
. 4x Sicarian Infiltrator (Flechette/Taser): 4x Flechette Blaster, 4x Taser Goad
+ Heavy Support +
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts] . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts] . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
How did you feel about the Breachers? I think you're the first person I've seen make a serious stab at using them in a competitive format.
Was also curious how you were dealing with enemy fliers and other hard to hit targets. I know I've had good luck with Neutron Onagers against enemy planes using protector doctrina but not sure what you would do against something like eldar bikes. Elimination volley and the +1bs kataphrons strat?
Just wanted to check I have been following tactical restraint rules correctly. I had a discussion over it and I’m now unclear
Does monitor malevolus refund CP’s prior to the first battle round? Ie, you use stygies clandestine infiltration on a unit of dragoons roll a 6 do you still get 1CP refunded yeah?
@ Mr Moustaffer I have won every game so far in playtesting but so far I have only played at my two local clubs which are not the highest standard.
I have submitted this as my list to the Dark millenium GT a week on Sat so one way or another it will get a decent test there.
I like the breachers - against players who don't know what they are doing they take a carnifex role and often attract a lot of firepower (sometimes more than the ryzaphrons) and yet survive and the agripinaa strat is priceless in this reguard half killing them is punishing, they are functionally 2+ for the first 2-3 turns and I give them the 5++ only against players with high AP melee assault. They are just so survivable for their points and if they are being shot at my other units arn't. Against more able players I find them often ignored which combined with the eye of xi over a few turns equates to more net damage then the ryzaphrones who good players focus hard.
If the enemy don't have any vehicles their damage halves so if possible I will possition them to focus a vehicle. They are also tough enough in melee that I usually position them on the frontlines on a flank of the vanguard they complement each other well.
If by fliers you mean the odd storm raven type flyer I either ryzaphron it out the sky or ignore it and focus the rest of the army it depends very much on the list and if there is a higher priority target. By the time you combine fire of onagers ballistarii ryzaphrones breachers you can crack a lot vehicle wise. I also find a lot of opponents really underestimate massed vanguard with the eye and a dominous - essentially vehicles are not a threat im too worried about.
Monstrous fliers one is ryzaphroned, the second is infiltrated, but more that are tough to wipe but you tend to outplay those on board control and we have too many units for them to deal with the breachers are noticably less effective but they are still tough to crack i have had a couple of situations where they have been charged and almost killed only to return and effectively soak all the damage.
Against an Aeldari -1 stacking/bike list truth is I havn't done enough testing. They have free rain with psychic powers but we have a lot of different units and a 3+ bs on many units (especially factoring strats) its a tough match up for any list and I could see it going either way. However they are terrain dependent and we arn't so I pray for planet bowling ball in this match up. Other than that correct screening and playing the mission are my plans. Yes ryzaphrons make a good counter to a singular bike unit but a skilled opponent will reaper them if possible.
@ideasweasel yes it works as soon as your warlord is deployed and their is no cap on cp regen prior to the first battle round (note your warlord has to be deployed) so thats no on extra relic type strats but clandestine infiltration after you deploy it is good
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forgot to mention the list can't use elimination volley due to the destroyers and kastelans being seperate forgeworlds. But the vigilous +1bs strategem always gets used
lash92 wrote: Actually I think this is good news for us. They just need to release rules like they did with the custodes instead of writing a whole campaign book.
Anyone know how good the Custodes bets rules are? Ad a point of reference.
I think the consensus is they're neat and we can actually get use out of the various units.
So I ran this at LVO (Spoilered due to size). I was one of the 5-0's going into round 6 and the only one not rocking a knight. Had a small guard detachment because I thought boxes were going to be more prevalent so I wanted mortars. I'm shifting to 100% Admech for my next few events.
-Heavy Support-
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS:16 (15 after special detachment)
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000
POWER LEVEL: 165
I played 2 Orks, 2 Eldar, a Deathwatch/Sisters/Dark Angels, and a 2 Repressor Gulli List (the list I lost to, he who went first wins type of game). I think Breachers make the list work full stop. They were my allstars every single game. When they weren't popping Battlewagons they were killing boyz or shining spears in CC. When you can't get to the shooting portion of the army because they're screened by a breachers unit the list fuctions really well.
I think Admech are in an excellent place and don't NEED knights and that once the Castellan and Ynarri get nerfed we could be looking at being one of the toughest armies in the game.
Hulksmash wrote: So I ran this at LVO (Spoilered due to size). I was one of the 5-0's going into round 6 and the only one not rocking a knight. Had a small guard detachment because I thought boxes were going to be more prevalent so I wanted mortars. I'm shifting to 100% Admech for my next few events.
-Heavy Support-
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS:16 (15 after special detachment)
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000
POWER LEVEL: 165
I played 2 Orks, 2 Eldar, a Deathwatch/Sisters/Dark Angels, and a 2 Repressor Gulli List (the list I lost to, he who went first wins type of game). I think Breachers make the list work full stop. They were my allstars every single game. When they weren't popping Battlewagons they were killing boyz or shining spears in CC. When you can't get to the shooting portion of the army because they're screened by a breachers unit the list fuctions really well.
I think Admech are in an excellent place and don't NEED knights and that once the Castellan and Ynarri get nerfed we could be looking at being one of the toughest armies in the game.
Congrats. I saw your list and was pleasantly surprised to see a no-Knight AdMech going 5-0. Surprised you went with Mars instead of Mixed detachment too.
I honestly am not sold on Breachers. Then again, I am not sold on Terminators or Custodes either, but some people seem to be able to use them to great effect. Could be a playstyle thing. I use Catachans for my screen, as they pair well with Vanguard in CC. I think in general though, one principle remains: Your screen must, must, MUST be able to fight well.
Totally agree that we are probably one of the T1 shooting armies right now. We have really ridiculously point efficient units.
Might be a meta thing but basic guard infantry just disappears in a standard game at most events. Armies being designed to kill 120 Orks don't even blink at 60 guardsman. It's why I tend to use the rangers as my primary infantry screen supported by the final shooting screen of my breachers. 60 rangers, while more expensive, are basically t3 marines with Cawl snagging cover every single turn for the brigade. A 7pt 3+ save, 3+BS, shooting a 30" St4 rapid fire gun w/ap-1 on 6's that rerolls all failed hits is amazing. Oh, and they ignore cover....
Hulksmash wrote: So I ran this at LVO (Spoilered due to size). I was one of the 5-0's going into round 6 and the only one not rocking a knight. Had a small guard detachment because I thought boxes were going to be more prevalent so I wanted mortars. I'm shifting to 100% Admech for my next few events.
-Heavy Support-
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS:16 (15 after special detachment)
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000
POWER LEVEL: 165
I played 2 Orks, 2 Eldar, a Deathwatch/Sisters/Dark Angels, and a 2 Repressor Gulli List (the list I lost to, he who went first wins type of game). I think Breachers make the list work full stop. They were my allstars every single game. When they weren't popping Battlewagons they were killing boyz or shining spears in CC. When you can't get to the shooting portion of the army because they're screened by a breachers unit the list fuctions really well.
I think Admech are in an excellent place and don't NEED knights and that once the Castellan and Ynarri get nerfed we could be looking at being one of the toughest armies in the game.
Very cool, now I am looking for some Breacher conversions that are not so expensive, because I loke the sleek mysterious look of admech.
Regarding your list I would love to hear some thoughts on your list, for example why didnt you go for 2 battalions, why you prefer rangers and omnispexes so much, how did you use your servitors, did you give the5++ only against high ap or melee?, why didnt you use a 10 man infiltrator unit for WoM
Hulksmash wrote: Might be a meta thing but basic guard infantry just disappears in a standard game at most events. Armies being designed to kill 120 Orks don't even blink at 60 guardsman. It's why I tend to use the rangers as my primary infantry screen supported by the final shooting screen of my breachers. 60 rangers, while more expensive, are basically t3 marines with Cawl snagging cover every single turn for the brigade. A 7pt 3+ save, 3+BS, shooting a 30" St4 rapid fire gun w/ap-1 on 6's that rerolls all failed hits is amazing. Oh, and they ignore cover....
Not really. Most of the time, these Guard are HODLing in ruins. I've never ended a game without any Guardsmen left alive.
Skitarii don't move 12"+2D6 every turn. They also can't fight, which may present a huge problem against GSC and such.
Hulksmash wrote: Might be a meta thing but basic guard infantry just disappears in a standard game at most events. Armies being designed to kill 120 Orks don't even blink at 60 guardsman. It's why I tend to use the rangers as my primary infantry screen supported by the final shooting screen of my breachers. 60 rangers, while more expensive, are basically t3 marines with Cawl snagging cover every single turn for the brigade. A 7pt 3+ save, 3+BS, shooting a 30" St4 rapid fire gun w/ap-1 on 6's that rerolls all failed hits is amazing. Oh, and they ignore cover....
Not really. Most of the time, these Guard are HODLing in ruins. I've never ended a game without any Guardsmen left alive.
Skitarii don't move 12"+2D6 every turn. They also can't fight, which may present a huge problem against GSC and such.
I still wonder why than can move so darn fast. Back then I never wanted guardsmen to be 5ppm per model, but looking at orders they are way too efficient and reliable for 4points.
Hulksmash wrote: So I ran this at LVO (Spoilered due to size). I was one of the 5-0's going into round 6 and the only one not rocking a knight. Had a small guard detachment because I thought boxes were going to be more prevalent so I wanted mortars. I'm shifting to 100% Admech for my next few events.
-Heavy Support-
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS:16 (15 after special detachment)
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000
POWER LEVEL: 165
I played 2 Orks, 2 Eldar, a Deathwatch/Sisters/Dark Angels, and a 2 Repressor Gulli List (the list I lost to, he who went first wins type of game). I think Breachers make the list work full stop. They were my allstars every single game. When they weren't popping Battlewagons they were killing boyz or shining spears in CC. When you can't get to the shooting portion of the army because they're screened by a breachers unit the list fuctions really well.
I think Admech are in an excellent place and don't NEED knights and that once the Castellan and Ynarri get nerfed we could be looking at being one of the toughest armies in the game.
Very cool, now I am looking for some Breacher conversions that are not so expensive, because I loke the sleek mysterious look of admech.
Regarding your list I would love to hear some thoughts on your list, for example why didnt you go for 2 battalions, why you prefer rangers and omnispexes so much, how did you use your servitors, did you give the5++ only against high ap or melee?, why didnt you use a 10 man infiltrator unit for WoM
I didn't go 2 battalions for a few reasons;
1) Extra CP 2) Every unit in the Battalion is useful
3) I wanted double chances for cover for the majority of my army
4) I wanted rerolls from Cawl
I prefer rangers because for 7pts you get a 3+BS, 3+ Save (after cover), 30" range bolter that goes neg 1 when you roll a 6 to wound. They're an amazing troop choice especially when you can get it to full rerolls from Cawl. Add in less than a point per model to ignore cover and you generally outshoot every other troop choice. Servitors dual serve as counter attack and to be used to replace dead breachers. I used the 5++ every game because I like being able to go 2+/4++ on an objective (or 1+/4++ if I have cover). As for the infiltrators I found I was using them poorly when I ran a 10 man vs. the 5 man. The 5 man is amazing for putting down single small units or characters. 10 generally feels like overkill. Plus I'm generally using WoM on my bots.
Suzuteo wrote:
Hulksmash wrote: Might be a meta thing but basic guard infantry just disappears in a standard game at most events. Armies being designed to kill 120 Orks don't even blink at 60 guardsman. It's why I tend to use the rangers as my primary infantry screen supported by the final shooting screen of my breachers. 60 rangers, while more expensive, are basically t3 marines with Cawl snagging cover every single turn for the brigade. A 7pt 3+ save, 3+BS, shooting a 30" St4 rapid fire gun w/ap-1 on 6's that rerolls all failed hits is amazing. Oh, and they ignore cover....
Not really. Most of the time, these Guard are HODLing in ruins. I've never ended a game without any Guardsmen left alive.
Skitarii don't move 12"+2D6 every turn. They also can't fight, which may present a huge problem against GSC and such.
I've rarely finished a game with a guardsman alive. In ITC they're just meat for butchers bill and reaping. Moving isn't helpful if you're all dead. Also if you think that 1-2 extra attacks and st4 is going to make your catachans be able to fight off GSC I don't know what to tell you. Also, unlike IG Infantry you might get to swing with 1-2 dudes before you die. Guard just die before they can swing. Just my experience but it's why quite a few people dropped IG.
Hulksmash wrote: I've rarely finished a game with a guardsman alive. In ITC they're just meat for butchers bill and reaping. Moving isn't helpful if you're all dead. Also if you think that 1-2 extra attacks and st4 is going to make your catachans be able to fight off GSC I don't know what to tell you. Also, unlike IG Infantry you might get to swing with 1-2 dudes before you die. Guard just die before they can swing. Just my experience but it's why quite a few people dropped IG.
Well, sorry to say, you're probably doing something wrong with the Guardsmen. Astra Militarum isn't at top tables with 80 Guardsmen for the heck of it. Hell, we saw Brandon Grant HODLing his Guardsmen to eke out the win in the finals at LVO.
What exactly is it that makes you think Vanguard+Catachans can't beat Genestealers? First, you get 3 Guardsmen for each Genestealer. That reason alone should suffice, but let's go on. Second, you get 32 S4 attacks against T3 after the -1T aura, which essentially reverses the quality advantage that Genestealers have. Finally, if you are bringing individual Mortars, Genestealers lose their fourth attack, putting the math clearly in the Guardsmen's favor. Genestealers run very fast. That is it. Catachans can and do screen them.
Quite a few people dropped Guard? Do we live on the same planet? I've watched the number of people take Catachan grow probably ten-fold in the past few months. They are a popular and amazingly well-performing sub-faction: https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results
LexOdin9 wrote: Gotta agree with above poster, now that people have warmed up to the meta, everyone knows how to counter the Loyal 32.
I'm not talking about Loyal 32 though. I'm talking about bringing 50-80 bodies backed by officers. No one has figured out how to "counter" that. Otherwise, they wouldn't be winning championships left and right for the past half year. (Same thing for Soulburst. Nobody can "counter" a totally non-interactive element like that.)
I mean, seriously, I actually would be the first to agree that it is a huge problem. Guardsmen are way too efficient and versatile. But let's not downplay how good they are. They are the best unit in the game right now. Castellans actually don't win those games. The Guardsmen do. The Castellan merely fills the only hole that Guardsmen cannot, and they mutually support one another.
Despite the guard hate I can't think of a game ive lost to them but then i mostly have played horde - guard arn't that tough and there are plenty of answers.
The win rate for guard isnt great untill you add a castellan then its solid so you should point the fingur at the problematic unit.
Guard are no where near the most powerful unit in the game and yes their use is declineing because you are seeing more admech and sob in that 32 role.
An admech brigade with 6 vanguard squads assuming dominous the vanguard kill 22 guardsmen now two cawl bots no bs buff shooty mode 15 dead 4 stubbers on my onagers 4 dead. So just useing my weaker firing thats 41 dead now factor in moral and we have 5 dead squads or near enough with little effort and 1 round of shooting.
Im not saying guard arnt good but they need atleast 160+ infantry models before they become tough to wipe. However even then t2 im dropping an infiltrator squad to wipe 2 squads in shooting and possibly charge a 3rd so no guard arnt scary.
Sure they can hide out of line of sight but if you want we can spend 60 pts on 3 servitor squads and hide them in 3 ruins.
And yes as someone pointed out guard featured at the top tables well done but the unbeatable guardsmen also featured on many of the lower tables where they were in fact soundly beaten.
Well, yeah. Like I said, the Castellan is strong when combined with the mutually supporting Guardsmen. But you seriously can't think of a game where you lost to Imperium Soup? It's such an incredibly strong list!
6x10 Guardsmen with RF+FRFSRF kill 26.67 out of 6x5 Vanguard with Shroudpsalm...
But Guardsmen aren't good because they are the most durable or most deadly units. They are good because they are extremely mobile and flexible--but above all, CHEAP. You can do a ton of different things with them, but the most important use is the cheapest source of reliable ObSec in the meta, which translates into VP.
I'm sure Alex Harrison is so glad to hear that Guardsmen are easy to wipe? From personal experience, I have made up for bad shooting rounds with Guardsmen more times than I could count.
Oh i have lost to knights and i have certainly lost to aeldarii and once to deathwatch but i have never lost to guardsmen (although i have run them every tourney this year untill CA18).
Well thats shooting maths they are easy to wipe provided you list for them.
As to obsec yes i agree its strong at holding the objectives on there side of the board but thats a stalemate if they cant take yours and despite speed they cant walk through your units so provided you have enough. Models yourself they arn't getting to yours quickly.
As to maths of 60 guardsmen firing at vanguard looks impressive but how do you intend to get all 60 within 12" of vanguard without first takeing casualties.
Assuming you go first (i'll give you that advantage but a lot of the time you wont) and assuming we are 24" apart. You can move move move for 12"+2d6 but now your out in the open anddon't get to fire dakka dakka 10 guardsmen live to frfsrf next turn 3.2 dead vanguard
You can advance and order to fire any way 6+d6" no frfsrf and not within 12" so 1/4 success rate 5 dead vanguard through shroudspalm if you can bring them all to bear of course dakkadakka 15 guardsmen live
You can just walk and frfsrf 10 dead vanguard but you have to get all within 24" but then your loseing 40+ back becauause your now in full range and if you were positioned to see them they are positioned to see you.
Yes when you are optimised you are very dangerous but when you have that many models you rarely are.
Also 60 guardsmen frfsrf 37 shots x 6 units x0.5 bs x0.5 to wound x0.33 armour save = 18.5 dead vanguard not 26.666 even with harker or yarick your only getting to 21.6 so your overestimateing them a fair bit
I pretty much never have all 60 of my Guardsmen together. And they spend way more time advancing or fighting than shooting. Some units never get a single shot off at all, in fact.
Your scenario is not very realistic because there is no board for us to refer to. In any actual game, I would have to consider where I deploy my Guardsmen (not in the same place) and what I would use them for. Rushing across 24" of open field to shoot at Vanguard is probably not the first thing, simply because I have so many options thanks to orders. In contrast, that might literally be the only thing the Vanguard are good for because they have cover in the open and have Assault weapons.
But consider a common scenario. Directly in between the Vanguard and my Guardsmen is an objective with some ruin walls around it. Whoever holds this objective scores the "hold more" VP and the scenario VP. I MMM 20 Guardsmen there and form a line along the far wall of the ruin. On your turn, you cannot reach the objective at all, nor can you move through my units to contest the object, nor can you shoot through the wall at my Vanguard. And if you charge, you're going to get handled by Catachans. But even if it were totally in the open, I can form three ranks and deny you the space the stand by the objective, even if you rolled a 12" advance and managed to kill enough Guardsmen to gain ObSec. (These sorts of things are what convinced me to switch to Catachans.)
I accidentally used S4. It's 20 dead Vanguard. Still, it's lots of dice.
Unnatural not really half of games you start 24" apart and as you say if your moving not firing your not doing the damage you stated you would proving my point that it was unrealistic to have 60 guardsmen all frfsrf
As to your scenario it sounds like quite a rare scenario to me. Most of the time either that objective was in your deployment zone to begin with or if I placed it as an admech player its out in the open I have cover for 2-3 turns if you want my objective I can target you. So stale mate you hold yours i hold mine
If its literally centre of the board e.g relic how big is the ruin if you cant fit all at ground level im firing at you from the side someones sticking out of. If you can only get 10 in thats clearable and yes you could have a swarm round the outside of the ruin but they are targetable (sure I wont clear them in a turn but on the second im approaching the ruin as per the maths earlier.
if its the last turn why have I left it unsecure for so long. That would having nothing to do with the guardsmen and everything to do with my lack of board control
but yes if it was a large ruin and we have gf los blocking and if you have been able to flood it because i've left it unsecure it will be tricky to deal with but their are 5 other objectives In a real game i probably ignore the one thats tough to clear and straken can only be at 1 objective.
Unless its the relic in which case breachers/hoplites/infiltrators are my CC answers) However if I left you to get in that position at t5 I have probably lost by that point.
So 6 months ago my 60 IG would live through the game. Now it just doesn't happen. My army is a bit more shooty but it dropped 100+ ork/gretchin in a single turn (would have been more but terrain). With bolters getting better it's only going to get worse for IG.
Also I was running math on Acolytes (7ppm) not genestealers. And the comparison was naked acolytes with none of their buffs. It gets wildly insanely in the Acolytes favor once they start buffing.
Also in reference to Brandon he's an exception, not a rule. He also played on a box heavy table where planes couldn't get his infantry which isn't common anywhere but LVO. No offense to Brandon because he's an incredible player but reality is seeing the upper end of the meta move away from guard brigades and it's likely to get worse as GSC get rolling and people gear up to deal with more 160+ model armies.
I get that you love your catachans. I'm not saying they are going 100% away or that they are a terrible choice. I'm saying that the upper end of the meta is gearing up to kill 100+ t4 models over 1-2 turns so running just 60 catachans is going to be a less than optimal choice and it's going to get worse.
i think its all a matter of play style. I personally use Rangers over Vanguard and i have been using Guard so I can agree with points both you (Suzuteo) and U02dah4 (omg im agreeing with you on something!? ) are making. Guardsmen have a more rounded tool box of tactics they can pick from. Whilst i have never been impressed with a Guardsmen's damage output (funnily they kill Terminators every once in a while haha but its never something meaningful). Too me you are paying for there wound, save and board control that they provide which is currently uncontested in the Imperium as a whole.
Combat wise a Vanguard is equal to a Catachan Guardsmen excluding character buffs, in a vacuum the Vanguards shooting output is better and he is tougher, but he is also double the cost.
So I dont think either is better than the other, if your going offensive then Vanguard are better, if you are going defensive Guard are better. Obviously the line gets blurred a bit depending on the rest of the army composition.
But the point im trying to make is that as with what Hulksmash said, we dont really need Guardsmen anymore. Yeah cheap mortars and infantry is sweet, you arent gimping yourself by not taking them.
1. More Psychic defence.
2. Transports - we make all the rhinos in the imperium, how hard would it be to hold a few back for our use...
3. more options in all of the force org slots.
4. Fires of Cyraxis...
I think we might be waiting quite a while for points 1 and 4 :(
but i'm with you on the transport. I am also very reluctant to buy forgeworld.
My local store bans it and people have a stigma about it but mainly if we swap to 9th edition we might go a period where rules are not allowed for those models and I might not get to use them for a while.
Ideasweasel wrote: I think we might be waiting quite a while for points 1 and 4 :(
but i'm with you on the transport. I am also very reluctant to buy forgeworld.
My local store bans it and people have a stigma about it but mainly if we swap to 9th edition we might go a period where rules are not allowed for those models and I might not get to use them for a while.
Fires of Cyraxus has been passed onto Citadel now from Forgeworld as with all 40k related books so hopefully we should get it a lot sooner than that way. I do wish we get some sort of Psyker, there was Technomancy in 6th and 7th and it would be awesome if it returned and it was us who had access to it.I still dont hold any hope for GW transports for us as stupid as that sounds, they very much want us to be a walking Faction which is sad. Maybe with our next codex we will get one or in a new box set like Shadowspear and so forth, but we were already in Forgebane so that wont be very likely. I feel like we need a type of Flyer (there is mentions of them in the fluff), Tech Auxilia, Hyspasists, Herakli, Praetorians, Cataphractii, Balisteria, Protectors, Tribunes, Sagitarii, Sub Dominas and Alpha Primus. These are all units that are from the lore they could add to our roster not including the many Tech Priest types and there own forces from the Reductor, Secutor, Myrmidex and Cybernetica sects.
Counting the 4 possible new units SM will get in the new set, they will have a grand total of 64 units (excluding named characters and forgeworld), we currently have 17 (not including Knights). Whilst SM are an older Faction model wise, just from Primaris alone they have gotten 21 units alone (if i am not mistaken), so if they put even half the effort into new units for us that would nearly cover those units i stated above. You want your GEQ suddenly we have Tech Auxilia and Hyspasists, you want squads will all special weapons Sagitarii fill that role, a fast moving cavalry unit thats where Herakli come in, want some Centurion style infantry oh look you have Praetorians, command squads thats Protectors, dreadnoughts/terminator style units say hello to Cataphractii and finally your heavy weapon squads thats Balisteria. We would then have our Skitarii HQs we have been long waiting for with the Sub Domina/Tribune/Axiarch/Primus.
Really there is enough that they could flesh us out with (or should i say AUGMENT huehue), but knowing GW they will create a unit that doesnt exist in previous fluff and fails to perform well like some of our units now... (Ruststalkers, how i miss you.... good in 7th.. crap now. I have 15 of the buggers!!!).
My wishlist would be in this order:
Skitarii Leader
Flyer
Archmagos
Different classes of Tech Priest available to us (Including Psykers, there is mention of them in the Lathe Worlds and in the Inquisitor RPG)
More Heavy Support options (Different versions of Kastelans more inline with the 30k variants)
More Fast Attack options (Kind of like Vorax and Thallax or just use Herakli)
Additional Troop/Elite style Skitarii
Transports (much like a Onager in light of the AT-TE from the Clone Wars, that thing is SEXY)
More named character from different Forgeworlds
I have gotten quite used to not relying on Transports nowadays with Skitarii so i view them as a little priority
U02dah4 wrote: Unnatural not really half of games you start 24" apart and as you say if your moving not firing your not doing the damage you stated you would proving my point that it was unrealistic to have 60 guardsmen all frfsrf
As to your scenario it sounds like quite a rare scenario to me. Most of the time either that objective was in your deployment zone to begin with or if I placed it as an admech player its out in the open I have cover for 2-3 turns if you want my objective I can target you. So stale mate you hold yours i hold mine
If its literally centre of the board e.g relic how big is the ruin if you cant fit all at ground level im firing at you from the side someones sticking out of. If you can only get 10 in thats clearable and yes you could have a swarm round the outside of the ruin but they are targetable (sure I wont clear them in a turn but on the second im approaching the ruin as per the maths earlier.
if its the last turn why have I left it unsecure for so long. That would having nothing to do with the guardsmen and everything to do with my lack of board control
but yes if it was a large ruin and we have gf los blocking and if you have been able to flood it because i've left it unsecure it will be tricky to deal with but their are 5 other objectives In a real game i probably ignore the one thats tough to clear and straken can only be at 1 objective.
Unless its the relic in which case breachers/hoplites/infiltrators are my CC answers) However if I left you to get in that position at t5 I have probably lost by that point.
Let's get this straight. You were the one who talked about straight-up mass shooting. Hell, you were the one saying people need to bring 160+ Guardsmen. And when I pointed out the math does not actually favor Skitarii, you were the one who started making range an issue.
Quite rare? Probably 90%+ of ITC games end up with at least one majority objective somewhere along the center line of the table. Which is the only reason why talking about 24" makes any sense at all.
It doesn't really matter if there are ruins or not. It can be totally in the open. I would still sacrifice a unit of Guardsmen to score the "hold more" VP. And I can do it with 10 Guardsmen each turn for the next four turns if need be. Running them from LOS blocker to the center of the board is trivial thanks to MMM.
I am getting annoyed by the constant shifting of goalposts here. I guarantee you 100% that you won't be taking that center objective (assuming it exists, which it usually does) from my Guardsmen with your Skitarii until the bottom of round 3. Which means you will be down 3 VP, WHICH IS WHY ADMECH LOSES SO DAMN MUCH. If you want to talk about how your firebase can waste a unit of Guardsmen each turn, well, I can talk about how some Castellan is going to make sure your firebase never makes it past round 1. The argument can go in circles forever, but the numbers don't lie. Alloying AdMech with Guard is the way to go.
Hulksmash wrote: So 6 months ago my 60 IG would live through the game. Now it just doesn't happen. My army is a bit more shooty but it dropped 100+ ork/gretchin in a single turn (would have been more but terrain). With bolters getting better it's only going to get worse for IG.
Also I was running math on Acolytes (7ppm) not genestealers. And the comparison was naked acolytes with none of their buffs. It gets wildly insanely in the Acolytes favor once they start buffing.
Also in reference to Brandon he's an exception, not a rule. He also played on a box heavy table where planes couldn't get his infantry which isn't common anywhere but LVO. No offense to Brandon because he's an incredible player but reality is seeing the upper end of the meta move away from guard brigades and it's likely to get worse as GSC get rolling and people gear up to deal with more 160+ model armies.
I get that you love your catachans. I'm not saying they are going 100% away or that they are a terrible choice. I'm saying that the upper end of the meta is gearing up to kill 100+ t4 models over 1-2 turns so running just 60 catachans is going to be a less than optimal choice and it's going to get worse.
Oh. I was talking about literal Genestealers. The ones in Tyranid lists that get slingshotted into your face on turn one. If you're trying to fend them off with Skitarii, they are a speedbump at best. At least Catachans can countercharge.
Honestly, it's hard to get a sense of what you're seeing if you're talking about a random RTT in the middle of nowhere. But the standard in ITC has been toward more terrain. BAO, SCO, and LVO all used magic bunkers, and they all featured similar OOB terrain sets. It's not going away. In fact, it's only going to become more common. (Everything is becoming standard in competitive, and I love it.)
I don't love my Catachans. They're actually just converted Skitarii. I would drop them in an instant if Skitarii became viable, but they aren't. Outside of perhaps Stygies Rangers (very good point efficiency), Skitarii are nowhere close to as good as Catachans.
1. More Psychic defence.
2. Transports - we make all the rhinos in the imperium, how hard would it be to hold a few back for our use...
3. more options in all of the force org slots.
4. Fires of Cyraxis...
1. I am a fan of taking Graia in mixed detachments specifically for the Abhor, but I agree that a lack of Deny is a problem.
2. Seriously... though if they gave us a stratagem for a Scout move or redploy, I would be happy as a clam.
3&4. Yeah. As it stands, half of our army has to be from the Guard or Knight codex by necessity.
I don't think we're going to move each other. I'm actually cutting pretty much all the guard (may keep the mortars) from my list but would happily run pure admech. I would appreciate it though if you didn't make assumptions about where or how I play. I play on LVO terrain and Nova terrain (which is actually heavier than terrain at LVO this year) at those actual events. I generally play pretty well and finish high. I was also the 3rd highest admech player in ITC this year and the only one in the top 3 without a knight at LVO.
I'm firmly of the opinion that Admech are in a place where they really can be run pure.
My experience, as singular as it is, is that Rangers are probably THE best infantry in the game in a Mars detachment. The reasons aren't simple point efficiency though.
The amount and type of firepower that needs to be directed to kill the infantry is of a different standard than guard screens. Additionally they outrange anything that isn't a fire warrior when it comes to cheap infantry. Ignoring cover means they win every shoot out outside of 12" and they normally get the first punch in.
But keep pushing the only way to play is with Guard and Knights. See what that gets you once GSC are fully rolling in the meta too
@suzeto I've never said guard are bad just that they are dealable with and they are. Yes on net a vanguard is slightly worse than a guardsmen but 6 vanguard only represnt 12% of my army where as for guard 16.5% of yours for 6 guard squads + 3 officers more if you want straken or a priest. (I wouldnt run 6 orders but you have in your explanation)
I also didn't say you needed to bring that many guardsmen I said thats the point they become hard to dead with.
When you make assumptions like i wont be able to get to a middle objective in 3 turns it just doesn't match with my playtesting. Last night i left 100 genestealers dead by t3 now admittedly they are t4 5++ and largely ignore moral but it wasnt enough to stop me taking the mid t3.
As to missions well i tend to play etc style missions with itc terrain. However i cant recall a lot of games with terrain dense enough where you could effectively hide 60 guardsmen out of LOS while advanceing down the field.
Not when i advance a wave and most of my units can shoot the length of the board.
As to the castellan no it cant obliterate an entire firebase in a single round .we have to many targets. Yes its broken but if it was that broken every player would run one.
@hulksmash i still prefer vanguard to rangers- at short and medium (up to 24") vanguard outperform rangers and thats what i want from my frontline. The extra damage on 6's makes them surprisingly flexible on mass vs vehicles and the -1t really supports breachers /hoplites in CC. Beyond 27" yes rangers are better but we have other units for that role but by the time you get to that range your damage output is low. (In a 17 the argument is different and as objective holders fine) but pure admech has other options for that role.
All 3 of you make valid points but it still all comes down to personal play style. Take for example me and U02dah4, hes an Agripinaa lover and im a Ryza lover, we both have success with our own armies. One may be more powerful than the other on paper but its the general that determines how strong they are.
From my own experiences Guard Infantry are a lot easier to play than Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard due to their cost, quantity and the orders that automatically go off. But for me that bored the hell out of me and like Hulksmash i have slowly phased my Guard out of my Admech.
Since CA18 and Vigilus Defiant ive replaced my Guardsmen with Kataphrons, not once in the whole 7th and 8th have i used Destroyers before, not ever. Now i am. They literally DESTROY anything you point them at, they will earn back there points and more so. Does that make my list weaker than the Guardsmen variant? No not really, its a side grade.
With my Ryzatrons i have reliably one shot Castellans, multiple vehicles/squads off the board whilst also being "durable". I am loving them, reminds me of having my old triple caliver Vanguard back with preferred enemy and tankhunter/monsterhunter. ITS GLORIOUS.
But that doesnt mean U02dah4's Grav Destroyers are bad, its just a different style of play. I am actually pleasantly surprised with Hulksmash having success with pure Admech, thats what i want OUR FACTION to be. 8th ed so far has been a rollercoaster for me, with more bad than good. Admech started off good then took a nose dive, we were then less Mech and more Flesh with Guard pulling the weight for us, now i can see my bionics again, the scrap code is gone and maybe there is a light at the end of the cogitator!?
We no longer have to be shoe horned into allying (i like it when you said alloying haha, so fitting!) in Guard and i really hope GW nails down hard on Soup. I play pure Deldar with no soup and they are still amazing, i play pure Orkz and get the shaft... (thats an Ork Codex problem....). Allies should supplement the army, not override it and provide massive benefits thats there is no reason not to Soup.
What they did to GSC is kinda interesting and i hope that gets pushed to other races as well. And what Hulksmash says about the meta shifting to GSC is most likely true, around where i am people have been popping up and buying them left, right and centre and i have been out of stock as well! Blobs of 20 Acolytes (with hand flamers), bikes vomiting out det bombs, freight train aberrants, masses of neophytes, there own (pre-nerfed) AoV. These are all problems the meta will have to face now.
And as Admech we still have the guns to deal with this, and as crap as the Manipulus maybe, he may be required to boost our Cognis Flamer over watch now. That is something im slowly leaning towards.
At the end of the day dont try force a certain army style on someone else, your Guard may rock for you, but his Rangers or Vanguard may outclass Guard in his hands. Ive seen plenty of non meta lists pull the pants off of the current meta lists, it even happened to me and cost me first place at an event when a sneaky slaanesh list went for my booty (literally) and knocked me off to 4th place (4-1.... as pure Admech).
I really feel it's an apples and oranges situation. I've played guard infantry heavy since 5th and skitarii heavy admech since the start of 8th. They really just don't do the exact same job, even when you think they would like trying to compare a FRFSRF guardsman to a Vanguard.
Guardsmen are more about objectives and screening. They have firepower and combat uses, but even when heavily kitted out for these roles their main jobs will still be holding objectives and screening more powerful units. I would never rely on a single squad to kill much of anything in this game, you really need two at minimum and an officer to ensure they do anything noteworthy. If an army knows how to snipe your characters, you are seriously at risk of losing a major chunk of their effectiveness.
Meanwhile I feel you can take skitarii units purely, or even mostly kitted out for shooting as their main role and still make them useful for screening. Skitarii, even Metallica vanguard, will never match the mobility of guard. However, their firepower stays way more effective on the move than guard could ever hope to be. And if they're in cover or have shroudpsalm, they are twice as durable to typical anti chaff weapons like storm bolters as a guardsman would be. Granted you can get 2 guardsmen per skitarii but you can only cram so many men into one area. And if you think about the mandatory officers you know the guard player must run to make his men effective, really the skitarii are more efficient since they really don't care if they have tech-priests nearby and technically cost less for what they're doing.
There's a lot I'm not getting into there of course, and there are solid arguments for both approaches. Personally I think a combo of skitarii and guardsmen is probably the best option in a vacuum, but the combination of regiment/Forgeworld abilities really makes it a tough call to make. It also doesn't help that all of Admech's troops are genuinely useful in at least some context. Some prefer certain FW's over others but at the end of the day they can all be used. Rangers are dirt cheap ranged infantry that are an efficient choice for arquebuses. Vanguard are surprisingly punchy and good walking firepower as well as a carrier for plasma and melee support. Destroyers, well, destroy things with scary efficiency, even non Ryza. And Breachers are starting to show promise as dirt cheap body guard units, tough with a good save and multiple abilities to bring back dead models.
@deffreka at my next tourney in running a second mixed admech detatchment with a unit of 5 ryzaphrones and 10 mars infilitrators to supplement my agripinaa brigade
So you might have made your case
As to cognis flamer overwatch dont feel its worth it mostly because unless your multi destroyering they tend to be focussed to heavily and id rather just screen them with agripinaa vanguard if I want overwatch
U02dah4 wrote: @deffreka at my next tourney in running a second mixed admech detatchment with a unit of 5 ryzaphrones and 10 mars infilitrators to supplement my agripinaa brigade
So you might have made your case
As to cognis flamer overwatch dont feel its worth it mostly because unless your multi destroyering they tend to be focussed to heavily and id rather just screen them with agripinaa vanguard if I want overwatch
U02dah4 wrote: @deffreka at my next tourney in running a second mixed admech detatchment with a unit of 5 ryzaphrones and 10 mars infilitrators to supplement my agripinaa brigade
So you might have made your case
As to cognis flamer overwatch dont feel its worth it mostly because unless your multi destroyering they tend to be focussed to heavily and id rather just screen them with agripinaa vanguard if I want overwatch
Hahaha whats happened to you?!?!
those new Admech units look sexy.....
Is that a grav and hydraulic claw on the servo? can see them going up in points now...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like a eradication pistol and an advanced omnispex, heres hoping hes a Skitarii Tribune or Tech Priest Leximechanic
I'd like to thank everyone contributing to this thread for all the insightful information you provide to less experienced players like my self
On a second note, me and 3 friends are throwing a small 4-player 2000pts tournament soon using all the beta rules and CA MoW missions. I would be very thankful if I could get some help with list building from you guys. The level of competition wont be that high since its more of a social event but I still want my list to have some teeth
I will be facing Stealer-heavy Tyranids, Tau and Orks. The only thing that is set from my point is that I will be playing mono-faction Lucius and have thus put together the following list as a first draft:
Spoiler:
13CP BASE
Battalion Servitor Maniple (-1CP)
Tech Priest Dominus
Volkite Blaster, Macro Stubber, Omnissiant Axe , The Solar Flare, [Master of Biosplicing]
Tech Priest Engiseer
Laspistol, Omnissiant Axe, Servo Arm
The idea is to have some strong beta-strike potential with DS-ing Servitors and Robots and combine stratagems for some extra damage. Also the fist bots can be played in a more aggressive way to gain some ground. Im open to any suggestions on how to improve on this list as long as it sticks to being all Lucius.
Id swap the two vanguard squads for two of the rangers squads swap the dominous to the other detatchment along with the dragoons make the first ryza make the second stygies or mars but thats just me - id consider dropping the cognis flamers for phosphor to upgrade a ranger squad to a vanguard
Im not that keen on master of biosplicing if your wanting res go agripinaa and sacrifice the ryza damage boost.
Hulksmash wrote: @Suzeto
I don't think we're going to move each other. I'm actually cutting pretty much all the guard (may keep the mortars) from my list but would happily run pure admech. I would appreciate it though if you didn't make assumptions about where or how I play. I play on LVO terrain and Nova terrain (which is actually heavier than terrain at LVO this year) at those actual events. I generally play pretty well and finish high. I was also the 3rd highest admech player in ITC this year and the only one in the top 3 without a knight at LVO.
I'm firmly of the opinion that Admech are in a place where they really can be run pure.
My experience, as singular as it is, is that Rangers are probably THE best infantry in the game in a Mars detachment. The reasons aren't simple point efficiency though.
The amount and type of firepower that needs to be directed to kill the infantry is of a different standard than guard screens. Additionally they outrange anything that isn't a fire warrior when it comes to cheap infantry. Ignoring cover means they win every shoot out outside of 12" and they normally get the first punch in.
But keep pushing the only way to play is with Guard and Knights. See what that gets you once GSC are fully rolling in the meta too
Yes, and I am impressed that you managed it. But you are the ONLY person who has gotten that far with a pure Forge World Brigade, whereas there are five other AdMech players at LVO who did just as well or better, and a further dozen or so who have been at it for months with better-than-expected results. Furthermore, none of your matchups were the various Soup lists floating around. Maybe chalk it up to local meta, but when you play in California and get stomped a couple of times by Soup, you realize how bad Skitarii actually are for anything other than shooting. (And I do acknowledge that Stygies or Graia Rangers are amazing shooters, but the army is full of amazing shooters.)
U02dah4 wrote: @suzeto I've never said guard are bad just that they are dealable with and they are. Yes on net a vanguard is slightly worse than a guardsmen but 6 vanguard only represnt 12% of my army where as for guard 16.5% of yours for 6 guard squads + 3 officers more if you want straken or a priest. (I wouldnt run 6 orders but you have in your explanation)
I also didn't say you needed to bring that many guardsmen I said thats the point they become hard to dead with.
When you make assumptions like i wont be able to get to a middle objective in 3 turns it just doesn't match with my playtesting. Last night i left 100 genestealers dead by t3 now admittedly they are t4 5++ and largely ignore moral but it wasnt enough to stop me taking the mid t3.
As to missions well i tend to play etc style missions with itc terrain. However i cant recall a lot of games with terrain dense enough where you could effectively hide 60 guardsmen out of LOS while advanceing down the field.
Not when i advance a wave and most of my units can shoot the length of the board.
As to the castellan no it cant obliterate an entire firebase in a single round .we have to many targets. Yes its broken but if it was that broken every player would run one.
@hulksmash i still prefer vanguard to rangers- at short and medium (up to 24") vanguard outperform rangers and thats what i want from my frontline. The extra damage on 6's makes them surprisingly flexible on mass vs vehicles and the -1t really supports breachers /hoplites in CC. Beyond 27" yes rangers are better but we have other units for that role but by the time you get to that range your damage output is low. (In a 17 the argument is different and as objective holders fine) but pure admech has other options for that role.
Rangers are much, much more efficient than Vanguard if you're using them to shoot other infantry. You pretty much need to take them in a pure Forge World though. I think Graia or Stygies are the best for this.
My Guard are usually around 20% of my army, and they are very much worth it in terms of the amount of VP they score. Ultimately, that is what this game boils down to. Scoring VP and denying VP. Guardsmen don't shoot as well as Skitarii, and they aren't as durable either, but they score and screen WAYYY better, which is what I think infantry should do.
I didn't say you would not be able to GET to a middle objective. I said you won't TAKE it. I can hold units hiding in LOS blocking terrain 12"+ inches away and constantly move them onto the objective while gunning down your Vanguard with Robots or something; you meanwhile have to commit the entire unit in a single turn because it takes you two turns to move the same distance. I only need to score 2-3 more points than you, and you're already at a massive disadvantage in a clocked game.
Again, I never hide all 60 of my Guardsmen in the same place. They're always in groups of one or two units with an officer nearby.
I know a Castellan cannot obliterate an entire firebase. I am pointing out that if you're going to make bad assumptions, I can make them too.
deffrekka wrote: All 3 of you make valid points but it still all comes down to personal play style. Take for example me and U02dah4, hes an Agripinaa lover and im a Ryza lover, we both have success with our own armies. One may be more powerful than the other on paper but its the general that determines how strong they are.
From my own experiences Guard Infantry are a lot easier to play than Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard due to their cost, quantity and the orders that automatically go off. But for me that bored the hell out of me and like Hulksmash i have slowly phased my Guard out of my Admech.
Since CA18 and Vigilus Defiant ive replaced my Guardsmen with Kataphrons, not once in the whole 7th and 8th have i used Destroyers before, not ever. Now i am. They literally DESTROY anything you point them at, they will earn back there points and more so. Does that make my list weaker than the Guardsmen variant? No not really, its a side grade.
With my Ryzatrons i have reliably one shot Castellans, multiple vehicles/squads off the board whilst also being "durable". I am loving them, reminds me of having my old triple caliver Vanguard back with preferred enemy and tankhunter/monsterhunter. ITS GLORIOUS.
But that doesnt mean U02dah4's Grav Destroyers are bad, its just a different style of play. I am actually pleasantly surprised with Hulksmash having success with pure Admech, thats what i want OUR FACTION to be. 8th ed so far has been a rollercoaster for me, with more bad than good. Admech started off good then took a nose dive, we were then less Mech and more Flesh with Guard pulling the weight for us, now i can see my bionics again, the scrap code is gone and maybe there is a light at the end of the cogitator!?
We no longer have to be shoe horned into allying (i like it when you said alloying haha, so fitting!) in Guard and i really hope GW nails down hard on Soup. I play pure Deldar with no soup and they are still amazing, i play pure Orkz and get the shaft... (thats an Ork Codex problem....). Allies should supplement the army, not override it and provide massive benefits thats there is no reason not to Soup.
What they did to GSC is kinda interesting and i hope that gets pushed to other races as well. And what Hulksmash says about the meta shifting to GSC is most likely true, around where i am people have been popping up and buying them left, right and centre and i have been out of stock as well! Blobs of 20 Acolytes (with hand flamers), bikes vomiting out det bombs, freight train aberrants, masses of neophytes, there own (pre-nerfed) AoV. These are all problems the meta will have to face now.
And as Admech we still have the guns to deal with this, and as crap as the Manipulus maybe, he may be required to boost our Cognis Flamer over watch now. That is something im slowly leaning towards.
At the end of the day dont try force a certain army style on someone else, your Guard may rock for you, but his Rangers or Vanguard may outclass Guard in his hands. Ive seen plenty of non meta lists pull the pants off of the current meta lists, it even happened to me and cost me first place at an event when a sneaky slaanesh list went for my booty (literally) and knocked me off to 4th place (4-1.... as pure Admech).
Sure. And I definitely would say that familiarity is important as well. But I think Guardsmen have way higher skill ceiling and potential than Skitarii, which pretty much just shoot. If you want to run Skitarii knowing their limitations, go for it. But know your limitations. By way of example, one of my friends is the best Space Wolf player in the world this year. His success doesn't necessarily mean pure Space Wolves are not still the worst pure faction in the game, and even he acknowledged that he had luck in his matchups, but he took out everything in his army that was not working. And that meant most of the Space Wolf plastic. Haha. His army is Herohammer, with something like 6-8 characters (mostly mounted), 3 troops, one of those FW Dreadnoughts, and a Falchion for killing Castellans.
Ryzaphrons are great. I think they are truly what pushed us into being a T1 army. Taking them with an Officer of the Fleet with Dagger is even better. Just one of the many examples of Guard+AdMech being greater than just Guard or just AdMech. People may scream cheese, but come on. We were hitching rides in Drop Pods and scouting fortifications in 7E. Shame is an emotion that AdMech do not have.
To be clear, this argument began because people were saying Guardsmen were easy to deal with. They are definitely not. They are a fast-moving, high model count ObSec blob. Even if you manage to kill them all, they will have scored 2-3 VP on you, which is why they are taken in Soup in the first place. I'm not actually trying to force anyone to run anything. Just saying that the competitive advantages of Guardsmen cannot be denied and should not be downplayed.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I really feel it's an apples and oranges situation. I've played guard infantry heavy since 5th and skitarii heavy admech since the start of 8th. They really just don't do the exact same job, even when you think they would like trying to compare a FRFSRF guardsman to a Vanguard.
Guardsmen are more about objectives and screening. They have firepower and combat uses, but even when heavily kitted out for these roles their main jobs will still be holding objectives and screening more powerful units. I would never rely on a single squad to kill much of anything in this game, you really need two at minimum and an officer to ensure they do anything noteworthy. If an army knows how to snipe your characters, you are seriously at risk of losing a major chunk of their effectiveness.
Meanwhile I feel you can take skitarii units purely, or even mostly kitted out for shooting as their main role and still make them useful for screening. Skitarii, even Metallica vanguard, will never match the mobility of guard. However, their firepower stays way more effective on the move than guard could ever hope to be. And if they're in cover or have shroudpsalm, they are twice as durable to typical anti chaff weapons like storm bolters as a guardsman would be. Granted you can get 2 guardsmen per skitarii but you can only cram so many men into one area. And if you think about the mandatory officers you know the guard player must run to make his men effective, really the skitarii are more efficient since they really don't care if they have tech-priests nearby and technically cost less for what they're doing.
There's a lot I'm not getting into there of course, and there are solid arguments for both approaches. Personally I think a combo of skitarii and guardsmen is probably the best option in a vacuum, but the combination of regiment/Forgeworld abilities really makes it a tough call to make. It also doesn't help that all of Admech's troops are genuinely useful in at least some context. Some prefer certain FW's over others but at the end of the day they can all be used. Rangers are dirt cheap ranged infantry that are an efficient choice for arquebuses. Vanguard are surprisingly punchy and good walking firepower as well as a carrier for plasma and melee support. Destroyers, well, destroy things with scary efficiency, even non Ryza. And Breachers are starting to show promise as dirt cheap body guard units, tough with a good save and multiple abilities to bring back dead models.
I totally agree with this. And I do take 5x10 Catachans (for scoring) alloyed with 2x Graia Vanguard (-1T aura and Abhor) and Officer of the Fleet + Ryza Kataphron Destroyers (Outflanking anti-tank) . This was the optimal troop loadout I settled on. It mixes amazingly strong scoring with great anti-tank counter-punching. Shooting is actually a very low priority; I rely on my firebase for that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Redemption wrote: New tech-priest and servitor models in the Combat Arena box:
I don't know what to say man. You've built yourself up so high for knowing how to use guard and attributed such a high skill level to yourself that I think you're a bit lost on other ways and other interactions. Which is cool. We don't have to agree. But telling people they are wrong when you clearly don't seem to understand the methodology of a list can get old. That's how you get stagnant.
I do love the constant "I play in a tougher meta" statements you like to throw out there though. Definitely something that opens up discussion....
(p.s. that dagger thing wouldn't work at most major GT's off the west coast and I'm not sure it would work on one there if someone asked about it. RAW it's not wrong but even the ITC guys tend to step on gamey anti-RAI stuff like that)
@Suzuteo To be clear the argument did not start with the suggestion that guard where easy to deal with it started with the suggestion that they were impossible to deal with. It is clear from others answers that you can in fact dealing with guard is entirely possible. This does not make them weak as a choice.
As to rangers they tend to be at the back so 5 s4 shots vs the vanguards 15 s3 shots against your guardsmen thats 1.5 dead vs 5 dead to the vanguard even in Rf range vanguard still win by 2 and the extra damage on 6's against the space marine 5 rangers 0.55 or 1.10 dead marines vs 1.11 dead from vanguard (so still in their favour but negligable whats funny is against a breacher rangers are 0.37 or 0.74 depending on range vanguard are 1.65. Gotto love that multidamage on 6's
So despite your assertion vanguard are almost always the better shooting option vs infantry (and everything else)
rangers have range and cost in their favour which is not bad as an allied detatchment but within faction we have enough backfield to stand on objectives
Automatically Appended Next Post: In his defence on the dagger thing it is legal i'm just not sure its that good an option though. i mean it guarentees they get to fire but means they wont fire turn 1 and the faster they fire the faster their target isn't firing at you. Personally I'd rather try and stick them in a ruin and encase I don't get T1
@Hulksmash
That's the thing. I don't know how to use Guard better than most. I actually know how to use Skitarii better than Guard. I only switched a few months ago after throwing in the towel on them, which is why I am impressed you made it so far with them.
Really, it's not me saying that I am more skilled than anyone, and I would hate for you to get that impression. It's me saying that Guard are amazingly good, and I have seen them kicking my teeth in enough times to be convinced of the fact. It's much easier to win games when you can score better than your opponent, especially if you get a crap first round. I definitely win a lot more with Catachans+Vanguard.
I don't know much about the meta in the Twin Cities, but I can only say that California tourney meta is suffocatingly competitive and cheesy. Also, you're right, nobody really honors RAI on this coast (since nobody has ever really known what GW intends), so if I ever play a Midwest or East Coast tourney, I will be sure to ask the TO.
@U02dah4
You can go back a few pages and see for yourself.
Yes... Rangers tend to be in the back; Vanguard are better than Rangers on the move, but without a good transport, they don't move nearly fast enough, and they are usually outnumbered for ObSec. And 5 dead? Did you forget to calculate the save? And for the purposes of calculation, the maximum damage of a Vanguard is 1 against most infantry; they are wonderful Primaris killers though.
You can deploy turn one with the Dagger in your own deployment zone. The purpose of the Dagger is to protect your Ryzaphrons from getting melted by Cawl's Wrath right off the bat.
yes sorry 3.3 dead as opposed to 1.5 and 3 dead vanguard are still better vs guard sm and breachers what infantry are they worse against?
as to the mid objective - its a game of 5 turns+ I find i can often take my opponents backfield objectives on turn 2 or 3 but thats just playtesting (the solar flare/ infiltrators are awesome sometimes) I agree its impossible for me to have got their on turn 2 I mean even deploying on the frontline and walking will get me their you have no overwatch because your in a ruins and i just charge from outside and stab you through the wall but admittedly walking forward in a straight line with my whole army is tough when we are all in cover irrespective of terrain. so hypothetically my 6 breachers charge they beat your guard squad down to 2.5 models dealing 1.2 w back to the breachers (assuming chainsword on the sgt and either a priest or straken) now we do moral (note on turn 1 if i go second this is a 6" charge but you have no overwatch so what the hell. But lets be honest they will be supported by hoplites and another unit of breachers encase you have 2 squads
as to the dagger let me quote you the tactical reserves rule
"Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."
You can deploy turn one with the Dagger in your own deployment zone. The purpose of the Dagger is to protect your Ryzaphrons from getting melted by Cawl's Wrath right off the bat.
I thought the Nov Big FAQ new tactical reserves rule states that you cannot deep strike on turn 1?
@The Forgemaster
Ah, apologies. I was thinking of the Spring FAQ beta rule. I actually have not yet decided to deploy them on turn one anyway. They are much more impactful when held in reserve.
@U02dah4
Now now, no need to be snarky.
You're shifting goalposts again by bringing up Hoplites and Breachers. We can argue in circles forever if we don't constrain the scope of things, and we'll end up comparing full Guard lists to full AdMech lists.
Anyhow, I tire of the argument. Here's my last word on the matter:
Guard are faster and more flexible than Skitarii. They also have higher body counts for ObSec and screening. Skitarii outshoot Guard and have better durability in most cases. These are objective truths.
When combined with Skitarii, I think Guard can be stronger than pure Guard or pure Skitarii. I specifically prefer Vanguard+Catachans. This is my opinion and my preference for play.
If you want to run pure Skitarii, go ahead. I am not going to stop you. In fact, I will wish you all the best of luck, root for you over any other matchup out there, and be impressed when you succeed where I have failed.
No not shifting at all my argument is that i can deal with guardsmen the same argument I've made all along.
You are the only one suggesting the answer has to be pure comparison between one unit and another.
Vanguard are an answer to guard in the open but I have other units for CC and other units still for range.
My competitive list contains all these units i merely constrain myself to the tools I am taking to my next GT for how I would deal with that situation as a mono admech list I have breachers and a unit of hoplites.
Probably a silly question but how are you doing the officer of the fleet thing? Yes he doesnt have <regiment> keyword so i can see the RAW you state but if you say this is true to allow the movement of non regiment units (ie destroyers) does this not mean that all your guard in that detachment no longer get their regiment benefits as not all units are from the same <regiment>? So your catachans are just regular guard? Seems a massive trade off for a single trick.
How many Ryzaphrons do you ambush? Because assuming a squad size of 6 with Ryza stratagem and +1 to hit they deal "just" 11 wounds to an Castellan with 3++.
lash92 wrote: How many Ryzaphrons do you ambush? Because assuming a squad size of 6 with Ryza stratagem and +1 to hit they deal "just" 11 wounds to an Castellan with 3++.
Yes, a unit of 6. Mostly because that's all the Kataphrons that I have, partly because I am not sure if I want to dedicate many more points toward a DS unit.
Still, there will be other things shooting at the Castellan. Dakkabots and/or a Krast Knight.
On that score, I am in the process of building a new one to replace the rather poorly built and painted one I had from 7E. I've been crunching numbers for Knights, and it's pretty much down to Krast Crusader vs. Styrix. I favor the latter, and I was wondering if there's anything I am not considering:
Krast Crusader (Ion Bulwark + Headsman's Mark)
+Two guns are better than one
+I think Wulfey mentioned this many months ago, but Krast Feet with +1S is the best anti-Castellan weapon by far. (14.22 expected wounds, and this is before the Krast stratagem!)
+RFBC definitely will be in range on Round 1
-Avenger and RFBC have very low peak damage. I doubt you will ever kill a Knight Castellan with a Crusader from just shooting.
-Thermal Cannon melta range is pretty much not an option. It would be better to just try to kick.
-Very easy for a Castellan to deploy outside Avenger threat in Round 1.
Krast Styrix (First Knight + Headsman's Mark)
+Volkite gun has good range (45"), consistent shots (5), and great outlier damage (Command reroll that low damage)
+You know what is better than S9 Krast Feet? S9 Krast Feet with RR1. (16.59 expected wounds)
+Reaper Chainsword with RR1 is really good against T7 vehicles without the Titanic keyword
+Built-in Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary!
+Twin Rad-cleanser and Graviton Crusher are great against elite infantry; they always have to make 4.67 saves without cover, and each one deals 3 damage
-Siege Claw is pretty useless; you can drop it for a Reaper if you want to save 25 points
-You pretty much have to try and close with the enemy in melee or he's just not making his points back
Oh, and does anyone have spare Krast "hand grasping serpent" decals? I misplaced mine and would like to buy one of each of the three sizes.
Hulksmash wrote: @Suzeto
I don't think we're going to move each other. I'm actually cutting pretty much all the guard (may keep the mortars) from my list but would happily run pure admech. I would appreciate it though if you didn't make assumptions about where or how I play. I play on LVO terrain and Nova terrain (which is actually heavier than terrain at LVO this year) at those actual events. I generally play pretty well and finish high. I was also the 3rd highest admech player in ITC this year and the only one in the top 3 without a knight at LVO.
I'm firmly of the opinion that Admech are in a place where they really can be run pure.
My experience, as singular as it is, is that Rangers are probably THE best infantry in the game in a Mars detachment. The reasons aren't simple point efficiency though.
The amount and type of firepower that needs to be directed to kill the infantry is of a different standard than guard screens. Additionally they outrange anything that isn't a fire warrior when it comes to cheap infantry. Ignoring cover means they win every shoot out outside of 12" and they normally get the first punch in.
But keep pushing the only way to play is with Guard and Knights. See what that gets you once GSC are fully rolling in the meta too
Yes, and I am impressed that you managed it. But you are the ONLY person who has gotten that far with a pure Forge World Brigade, whereas there are five other AdMech players at LVO who did just as well or better, and a further dozen or so who have been at it for months with better-than-expected results. Furthermore, none of your matchups were the various Soup lists floating around. Maybe chalk it up to local meta, but when you play in California and get stomped a couple of times by Soup, you realize how bad Skitarii actually are for anything other than shooting. (And I do acknowledge that Stygies or Graia Rangers are amazing shooters, but the army is full of amazing shooters.)
U02dah4 wrote: @suzeto I've never said guard are bad just that they are dealable with and they are. Yes on net a vanguard is slightly worse than a guardsmen but 6 vanguard only represnt 12% of my army where as for guard 16.5% of yours for 6 guard squads + 3 officers more if you want straken or a priest. (I wouldnt run 6 orders but you have in your explanation)
I also didn't say you needed to bring that many guardsmen I said thats the point they become hard to dead with.
When you make assumptions like i wont be able to get to a middle objective in 3 turns it just doesn't match with my playtesting. Last night i left 100 genestealers dead by t3 now admittedly they are t4 5++ and largely ignore moral but it wasnt enough to stop me taking the mid t3.
As to missions well i tend to play etc style missions with itc terrain. However i cant recall a lot of games with terrain dense enough where you could effectively hide 60 guardsmen out of LOS while advanceing down the field.
Not when i advance a wave and most of my units can shoot the length of the board.
As to the castellan no it cant obliterate an entire firebase in a single round .we have to many targets. Yes its broken but if it was that broken every player would run one.
@hulksmash i still prefer vanguard to rangers- at short and medium (up to 24" vanguard outperform rangers and thats what i want from my frontline. The extra damage on 6's makes them surprisingly flexible on mass vs vehicles and the -1t really supports breachers /hoplites in CC. Beyond 27" yes rangers are better but we have other units for that role but by the time you get to that range your damage output is low. (In a 17 the argument is different and as objective holders fine) but pure admech has other options for that role.
Rangers are much, much more efficient than Vanguard if you're using them to shoot other infantry. You pretty much need to take them in a pure Forge World though. I think Graia or Stygies are the best for this.
My Guard are usually around 20% of my army, and they are very much worth it in terms of the amount of VP they score. Ultimately, that is what this game boils down to. Scoring VP and denying VP. Guardsmen don't shoot as well as Skitarii, and they aren't as durable either, but they score and screen WAYYY better, which is what I think infantry should do.
I didn't say you would not be able to GET to a middle objective. I said you won't TAKE it. I can hold units hiding in LOS blocking terrain 12"+ inches away and constantly move them onto the objective while gunning down your Vanguard with Robots or something; you meanwhile have to commit the entire unit in a single turn because it takes you two turns to move the same distance. I only need to score 2-3 more points than you, and you're already at a massive disadvantage in a clocked game.
Again, I never hide all 60 of my Guardsmen in the same place. They're always in groups of one or two units with an officer nearby.
I know a Castellan cannot obliterate an entire firebase. I am pointing out that if you're going to make bad assumptions, I can make them too.
deffrekka wrote: All 3 of you make valid points but it still all comes down to personal play style. Take for example me and U02dah4, hes an Agripinaa lover and im a Ryza lover, we both have success with our own armies. One may be more powerful than the other on paper but its the general that determines how strong they are.
From my own experiences Guard Infantry are a lot easier to play than Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard due to their cost, quantity and the orders that automatically go off. But for me that bored the hell out of me and like Hulksmash i have slowly phased my Guard out of my Admech.
Since CA18 and Vigilus Defiant ive replaced my Guardsmen with Kataphrons, not once in the whole 7th and 8th have i used Destroyers before, not ever. Now i am. They literally DESTROY anything you point them at, they will earn back there points and more so. Does that make my list weaker than the Guardsmen variant? No not really, its a side grade.
With my Ryzatrons i have reliably one shot Castellans, multiple vehicles/squads off the board whilst also being "durable". I am loving them, reminds me of having my old triple caliver Vanguard back with preferred enemy and tankhunter/monsterhunter. ITS GLORIOUS.
But that doesnt mean U02dah4's Grav Destroyers are bad, its just a different style of play. I am actually pleasantly surprised with Hulksmash having success with pure Admech, thats what i want OUR FACTION to be. 8th ed so far has been a rollercoaster for me, with more bad than good. Admech started off good then took a nose dive, we were then less Mech and more Flesh with Guard pulling the weight for us, now i can see my bionics again, the scrap code is gone and maybe there is a light at the end of the cogitator!?
We no longer have to be shoe horned into allying (i like it when you said alloying haha, so fitting!) in Guard and i really hope GW nails down hard on Soup. I play pure Deldar with no soup and they are still amazing, i play pure Orkz and get the shaft... (thats an Ork Codex problem....). Allies should supplement the army, not override it and provide massive benefits thats there is no reason not to Soup.
What they did to GSC is kinda interesting and i hope that gets pushed to other races as well. And what Hulksmash says about the meta shifting to GSC is most likely true, around where i am people have been popping up and buying them left, right and centre and i have been out of stock as well! Blobs of 20 Acolytes (with hand flamers), bikes vomiting out det bombs, freight train aberrants, masses of neophytes, there own (pre-nerfed) AoV. These are all problems the meta will have to face now.
And as Admech we still have the guns to deal with this, and as crap as the Manipulus maybe, he may be required to boost our Cognis Flamer over watch now. That is something im slowly leaning towards.
At the end of the day dont try force a certain army style on someone else, your Guard may rock for you, but his Rangers or Vanguard may outclass Guard in his hands. Ive seen plenty of non meta lists pull the pants off of the current meta lists, it even happened to me and cost me first place at an event when a sneaky slaanesh list went for my booty (literally) and knocked me off to 4th place (4-1.... as pure Admech).
Sure. And I definitely would say that familiarity is important as well. But I think Guardsmen have way higher skill ceiling and potential than Skitarii, which pretty much just shoot. If you want to run Skitarii knowing their limitations, go for it. But know your limitations. By way of example, one of my friends is the best Space Wolf player in the world this year. His success doesn't necessarily mean pure Space Wolves are not still the worst pure faction in the game, and even he acknowledged that he had luck in his matchups, but he took out everything in his army that was not working. And that meant most of the Space Wolf plastic. Haha. His army is Herohammer, with something like 6-8 characters (mostly mounted), 3 troops, one of those FW Dreadnoughts, and a Falchion for killing Castellans.
Ryzaphrons are great. I think they are truly what pushed us into being a T1 army. Taking them with an Officer of the Fleet with Dagger is even better. Just one of the many examples of Guard+AdMech being greater than just Guard or just AdMech. People may scream cheese, but come on. We were hitching rides in Drop Pods and scouting fortifications in 7E. Shame is an emotion that AdMech do not have.
To be clear, this argument began because people were saying Guardsmen were easy to deal with. They are definitely not. They are a fast-moving, high model count ObSec blob. Even if you manage to kill them all, they will have scored 2-3 VP on you, which is why they are taken in Soup in the first place. I'm not actually trying to force anyone to run anything. Just saying that the competitive advantages of Guardsmen cannot be denied and should not be downplayed.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I really feel it's an apples and oranges situation. I've played guard infantry heavy since 5th and skitarii heavy admech since the start of 8th. They really just don't do the exact same job, even when you think they would like trying to compare a FRFSRF guardsman to a Vanguard.
Guardsmen are more about objectives and screening. They have firepower and combat uses, but even when heavily kitted out for these roles their main jobs will still be holding objectives and screening more powerful units. I would never rely on a single squad to kill much of anything in this game, you really need two at minimum and an officer to ensure they do anything noteworthy. If an army knows how to snipe your characters, you are seriously at risk of losing a major chunk of their effectiveness.
Meanwhile I feel you can take skitarii units purely, or even mostly kitted out for shooting as their main role and still make them useful for screening. Skitarii, even Metallica vanguard, will never match the mobility of guard. However, their firepower stays way more effective on the move than guard could ever hope to be. And if they're in cover or have shroudpsalm, they are twice as durable to typical anti chaff weapons like storm bolters as a guardsman would be. Granted you can get 2 guardsmen per skitarii but you can only cram so many men into one area. And if you think about the mandatory officers you know the guard player must run to make his men effective, really the skitarii are more efficient since they really don't care if they have tech-priests nearby and technically cost less for what they're doing.
There's a lot I'm not getting into there of course, and there are solid arguments for both approaches. Personally I think a combo of skitarii and guardsmen is probably the best option in a vacuum, but the combination of regiment/Forgeworld abilities really makes it a tough call to make. It also doesn't help that all of Admech's troops are genuinely useful in at least some context. Some prefer certain FW's over others but at the end of the day they can all be used. Rangers are dirt cheap ranged infantry that are an efficient choice for arquebuses. Vanguard are surprisingly punchy and good walking firepower as well as a carrier for plasma and melee support. Destroyers, well, destroy things with scary efficiency, even non Ryza. And Breachers are starting to show promise as dirt cheap body guard units, tough with a good save and multiple abilities to bring back dead models.
I totally agree with this. And I do take 5x10 Catachans (for scoring) alloyed with 2x Graia Vanguard (-1T aura and Abhor) and Officer of the Fleet + Ryza Kataphron Destroyers (Outflanking anti-tank) . This was the optimal troop loadout I settled on. It mixes amazingly strong scoring with great anti-tank counter-punching. Shooting is actually a very low priority; I rely on my firebase for that.
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Redemption wrote: New tech-priest and servitor models in the Combat Arena box:
Hopefully these will see 40k rules, but otherwise they're at least decent alternate models.
Yesss. If we get more force multipliers for Skitarii like with the Manipulus, I can actually see Red Tide being a thing.
Oh yeah i agree with you Suzuteo! But i also agree with the others. Maybe its just me but i find Guardsmen really easy to use, screening and scoring are second nature to me, especially now with guardsmen having the easiest variation of orders they have ever known. As an old tread head (Athonian Tunnel Rats!! One of the OGs) the skill curve for Guard has dropped vastly. Skitarii need to survive, they arent as throw away as Infantry Squads, I find that i am using more of my skill keeping them combat effective for longer, i want them alive and kicking as they need to shoot and they need to score. Im more relying on there survivability (3+ save in cover, 6++ invun, -1 to hit) than pure bodies. Sure some people may treat there Skitarii as meatbags and numbers, but my Tech Priest doesnt waste resources willy nilly! And for one i never used Drop Pods or Rhinos with my Skitarii back in 7th or Scouted Fortifications. I won many tournaments as pure Skitarii (the old Dominus Maniple served me well, i didnt even run War Con like everyone else).
As i said before they are side grades, each has advantages and disadvantages.People shouldnt be shot down for wanting to run more Admech than Guard, its an Admech Tactica after all and it gets kinda tiresome with people just saying use Guard. Ive been using Guard with my Skitarii ever since the Guard book dropped and im personally sick of it. Im getting to the point where i cant stand allies and its really putting a negative outlook on 8th for me. I have always preferred 7th ed with 5th ed being my favourite. It all started well but after the Guard/Eldar/Nid books the game has gotten crazy. Stormbolters with 8 shots, genestealers moving 42" (faster than some flyers), double shooting left right and centre, castellans that one shot VEQs, automatic orders (why can guard move 12 + 2d6 by being told to? wouldnt augmented bionical soldiers who know no fatigue be able to do the same? Those guard move as fast as a bike or buggy.....). The game needs to dial back a bit, i much preferred getting nuked by a Typhon than what this games shooting phase is becoming like. The game is just as bloated as it was back in 6th and 7th.
I for one welcome a more purer Admech force, its a pleasant change and heres hoping the new Tech Priest is alright and not overpriced like the Manipulus. I think we all should drop the Guard > Skitarii argument as people wont budge from there own tastes. We should just accept they are equals in different ways. If i was new to the game and started Admech and someone told me to take Guard as my core infantry I would literally walk away from the hobby. But i am too invested in this game (started in 4th ed with Orkz). There comes a point where we arent actually Admech anymore, we are just Imperials. If thats your thing fine, but i didnt start Skitarii to buddy up with other Imperials. Originally i didnt even want Cult Mech with my Skits but they forced us together and butchered the Skitarii side.Just let people run what they want and let them tell tales of their impressive feats and wins. Its refreshing.
Well, keep in mind that at no point did I say that people cannot run Skitarii. I am simply stating that Guard are strictly more competitive in ITC due to their combination of mobility and flexibility. They are better at scoring, and scoring wins games, especially games where you fall behind on points on the table.
Can you build a list to make up for the shortcomings of Skitarii and emphasize their strengths? Yes. Clearly, some people are doing that. But personally, I think Guardsmen have a much more tolerable set of shortcomings and a much more distinct set of strengths. (Being able to outrun most transports is hilarious and something pretty much only Guard can do.)
I was all about the cheese in 7E. But then again, I played Skitarii with a Knight. Didn't have the models for a WarCon.
They are marginally superior in a lot of circumstances but they are dealable with.
Guard Strength
Model count for holding objective
Mobility - at the expense of firepower
Firepower under 12" with orders or if target is single wound without
and 21.5-27.5" with orders
CC in offence only
Strong overwatch
Weakness
Moral
Requirement for character support either your having 3 officers+priest/straken or they are not performing at optimal level many lists only have 1 or 2 officers to save pts conpromiseing on how many can be ordered. So net most expensive option.
Squishy especially in CC you go second your straken/priest is buffing 1 sgt
Easy to target (large model count gives lots of opportunity for someone to see you)
Vanguard
Strengths
Firepower 12-21.5" (if guard dont have orders and the target is multi wound stronger 1-12")
Flexible firepower double dam on 6's is great for chipping wounds off light vehicles/elite inf
CC boosts your other units vs inf
Moral not realy an issue
Not character dependent
Strong overwatch
Minimal penalty for advancing and doesnt care about terrain so you can advance with minimal penalty if no target in range
Weakness
Slow
CC damage output negligable
Works best when condensed into blocks of squads to focus firepower so really 2 blocks in most armies
Ranger
Strengths
Range firepower 27.5"-33.5"
Cheapest
Can sit on a backfield objective and still effect game.
Moral not really an issue
Not character dependent
If your going to arquebus it is the best squad for it but then you become the most expensive option
Weakness
Slow
Shooting damage negligable unless under 15" but even then the others would be better
And band where it it is best is really small
CC damage output negligable
Bad overwatch
Admech have ballistarii onagers and kastelans and kataphrons for sitting backfield and they are better at it
Suzuteo wrote: Well, keep in mind that at no point did I say that people cannot run Skitarii. I am simply stating that Guard are strictly more competitive in ITC due to their combination of mobility and flexibility. They are better at scoring, and scoring wins games, especially games where you fall behind on points on the table.
Can you build a list to make up for the shortcomings of Skitarii and emphasize their strengths? Yes. Clearly, some people are doing that. But personally, I think Guardsmen have a much more tolerable set of shortcomings and a much more distinct set of strengths. (Being able to outrun most transports is hilarious and something pretty much only Guard can do.)
I was all about the cheese in 7E. But then again, I played Skitarii with a Knight. Didn't have the models for a WarCon.
I have enough models for about 7 War Cons haha!!! Back in the day i bought 12 Dominus Maniples lmao! I have Onagers for dayssssss but its a shame they got rid of their squadron rules.... Most of all i want that back. They are my favourite vehicle of all GW Imperium factions.
Its more ETC over here, theres a couple places that do ITC in England but not a lot. I run my own competition during August (a 3 day one) and thats never been ITC or ETC. Usually a lot of places still use Highlander or custom rule sets ive found. I wasnt all about the cheese in 7th, ive always enjoyed trashing deathstar builds, i never had problems facing invisibility, ironhands bike captains, tiggy with grav centurions, necron decurions. Honestly i found 7th so enjoyable. Its just people couldnt find ways to deal with the meta (Cullexis Assassins exist for a reason... ). My Skitarii were pretty much undefeated throughout 7th. But going from that to being on the back foot every game is quite the kick in the nuts. Im just finding 8th to be too crazy. Why does the game need a gazillion shots with all the rerolls under the sun? I much prefer the older twin linked weapons.
I even want stratagems and CP to change. how can you only use Strats a finite amount of times? Its like your army forgets to carry hellfire shells, flakk missiles, how to dodge, throw grenades etc. If it were more like everyone had 100CP and you buy your stratagems pre game (like the old Cities of Death/Planet Strike/Apocalypse) and can use them like a normal piece of wargear suddenly the game doesnt feel as gimmicky (you can still have some that are only 1 use per game). If i paid say 30CP on Hellfire shells i should be able to use it on a unit every turn of the game. But i digress, my opinion of 8th doesnt really matter in this tactica haha
U02dah4 wrote: They are marginally superior in a lot of circumstances but they are dealable with.
...
Vanguard favour agripinaa/graia/lucius
+Guard: deepstrike denial, screening
- skitarii Moral is definitely an issue
Side note:
What do you guys think. I mostly have graia as my 2nd battalion for vanguard screening, but what about metallica and giving them mass arc rifles?
How is moral an issue for skittarii LD7 +1 for near by vehicle with free teather for ld8 so your useing them
5 models so if 4 die you have a 2/3 of not loseing a model to moral if 3 die 5/6 of not loseing a model to moral 1,2,5dead moral doesnt matter in addition if your late game you may even roll a canticle to reroll moral.
In reality you rarely lose more than a model to moral in a game
Vs guard ld8 assuming catachan with officer so
1,2 moral doesnt matter
3 5/6 chance not losing
4 2/3 chance not losing
5 1/2 chance not losing avg 1 dead
6 1/3 chance not losing avg 1.666 dead
7 1/6 chance not losing Avg squad dead
8 1/6 chance of sgt surviving 5/6squad dead
9 squad dead
10 doesnt matter
All can sufficiently screen thats just a function of model count placement and survivabilty. If anything vanguard have the advantage because if they are stygies you can scout them forward. Allowing you to screen further out but not all skitarii can so i didnt list it like i didnt list DSing or psychic denial. Rangers are the only ones that struggle to screen as they want to be at the back. Sure vanguard might want a couple extra squads supporting them but they dont require character buffs.
I listed model count
Infantry have no other advantage to deep strike denial unless they have move move movex to cover more ground but thats listed as mobility
My admech lists have more than enough models to deepstrike deny the whole deployment zone. Increased model count doesnt really do this much better if you have deployed right.
Not that infantry can't do that with fewer units. Its just that once you can deny more models isn't an advantage.
Other than on breachers arc rifles just arn't that effective mathmatically. we have lots of tools vs vehicles use those. Unless your filling out a detatchment upgrade your vanguard to hoplites if you want skitarri to be anti vehicle. (They make excelent screens aswell).
If Arc rifles became like there Eldar/Deldar/Harlie and Tyranid equivalents then all of a sudden you would take them more. I wouldnt take one now a days as they dont really do much except add a little more anti intantry to your list, think of them as weaker grenade launchers.
Smack on the proper haywire weapon affects like they had back 7th ed and what other armies kept and we suddenly have an amazing anti tank option, the pts would go up for the weapons, but they will become invaluable.
When i uses Rangers they are either barebones, have transuranic arquebuses or if i have spare pts left over maybe ill throw in a couple Arcs.
Are Skitarii weapons got butchered really from the 7th to 8th.
Galvanic Rifles were ap4 (which transitions to ap1 now), and on 6s to hit could pick out targets. They now cant pick out targets on 6s to hit and they lost their ap unless you roll a 6 to wound.
Radium Carbines had the same treatment. 6 to wound caused 2 wounds, now its 2 damage. There are weapons out there that deal multiple wounds (not multiple damage) so why is it so hard to let us keep it.
Plasma Calivers lost a shot, they used to be 3 shots. Again why did this have to happen, basically now we have a rapid fir plasmagun thats always active on 18" range instead of 12".
Arc weapons were mentioned before.
Heavy Grav and all there lesser variants just got slaughtered with the edition change. Maybe because everyone spammed them for 2 editions straight, but now only we use our version, i dont think ive seen a single army in person use grav this edition.
So i go plasma and arquebus as my go to weapon options for Skitarii with Vanguard fiiting plasma better and arquebuses with Rangers.
Overall we lost quite a lot, flavour, rules, options. More so than other races.
U02dah4 wrote: They are marginally superior in a lot of circumstances but they are dealable with.
...
Vanguard favour agripinaa/graia/lucius
+Guard: deepstrike denial, screening
- skitarii Moral is definitely an issue
Side note:
What do you guys think. I mostly have graia as my 2nd battalion for vanguard screening, but what about metallica and giving them mass arc rifles?
I run Metallica all the time and have given arc rifles several chances. In my opinion they're a waste of perfectly good plastic. If I want cheap guns that can do a bit of damage, I'd just take regular vanguard radium carbines. If I want an actual special weapon I'd rather have plasma that puts two shots out with more AP, strength, and consistent damage.
In my experience, Skitarii have much better passive morale due to BSDT and lower body count. But your only real active option is to spend 2 CP to change Canticles. Meanwhile, Guard have Fight to the Death, which is 1 CP to roll D3 for morale, which is amazingly good if you absolutely cannot fail the morale test. Then there is the Catachan leadership buff (L8 on the Sergeant) and the Litanies relic.
I think the reason why Skitarii are really meh this edition is because their weapons got nerfed. I mean, Deldar get Haywire Blasters (1 mortal on 4+ to wound, D3 on 6+ to wound) for 8 points. I would definitely take that on Skitarii. Even their Radium Carbines deal 2 damage per turn instead of proccing extra shots.
Suzuteo wrote: In my experience, Skitarii have much better passive morale due to BSDT and lower body count. But your only real active option is to spend 2 CP to change Canticles. Meanwhile, Guard have Fight to the Death, which is 1 CP to roll D3 for morale, which is amazingly good if you absolutely cannot fail the morale test. Then there is the Catachan leadership buff (L8 on the Sergeant) and the Litanies relic.
I think the reason why Skitarii are really meh this edition is because their weapons got nerfed. I mean, Deldar get Haywire Blasters (1 mortal on 4+ to wound, D3 on 6+ to wound) for 8 points. I would definitely take that on Skitarii. Even their Radium Carbines deal 2 damage per turn instead of proccing extra shots.
Yeah, even though i made a ranty post before it is all true, they butchered us. We lost Dunestrider (the stratagem now is a joke), our Doctrinas got changed to stratagems (again why), and most of our infantry guns got changed. Other races generally kept the same rules for there guns with just adding the damage characteristic now. Arc rifles are now a poor mans grenade launcher, but i would rather pay the pts for a grenade launcher instead of the arc rifle itself.
Im hoping whenever we get a new codex again they fully revamp us from the ground up, the earlier codexes are just bad. And whilst im enjoying Vigilus Defiant my army still feels lacking and if you cant tell im getting burnt out hahaha If we were done in light of how well written Tyranids and Dark Eldar codexes are that would be a dream come true to me. Those 2 books have crazy good internal balance and character, you can use 90% of units in the book and not feel like your gimping yourself.
They are not the army that i liked in seventh I liked the mobility the not needing an HQ. We now do have more redundant units
But we are since CA18 in the best place we have been and are starting to make conpetative headway but it takes time when lots of armies have had 6-12 months to function and refine competative lists and we have had 2 months.
Im hoping whenever we get a new codex again they fully revamp us from the ground up, the earlier codexes are just bad. And whilst im enjoying Vigilus Defiant my army still feels lacking and if you cant tell im getting burnt out hahaha If we were done in light of how well written Tyranids and Dark Eldar codexes are that would be a dream come true to me. Those 2 books have crazy good internal balance and character, you can use 90% of units in the book and not feel like your gimping yourself.
No argument that Nids have a super strong single codex, but isn’t it famous for having like half a book of useless crap? Spore nonsense and whatnot? Even a unit that suicides by re-deepstriking turn 3 if you try to use its pop-up mobility more than once? I was under the impression that it was half fantastic and half “don’t bother”, just that the fantastic half is still like twice as long as our entire codex due to being a much older army.
Im hoping whenever we get a new codex again they fully revamp us from the ground up, the earlier codexes are just bad. And whilst im enjoying Vigilus Defiant my army still feels lacking and if you cant tell im getting burnt out hahaha If we were done in light of how well written Tyranids and Dark Eldar codexes are that would be a dream come true to me. Those 2 books have crazy good internal balance and character, you can use 90% of units in the book and not feel like your gimping yourself.
No argument that Nids have a super strong single codex, but isn’t it famous for having like half a book of useless crap? Spore nonsense and whatnot? Even a unit that suicides by re-deepstriking turn 3 if you try to use its pop-up mobility more than once? I was under the impression that it was half fantastic and half “don’t bother”, just that the fantastic half is still like twice as long as our entire codex due to being a much older army.
Just bring Flyrants and 150+ Gaunts. (Not a joke. That is one of the most competitive Nid armies out there.)
Hulksmash wrote: Meh, that's an argument to have in another topic.
So anyone else making 85pts of space for the assassin of their choice each game?
Definitively! The flexibility you get is just too good to pass on imo and the best thing is that you don't need to sacrifice a detachment anymore.
Which ones do you like most? I feel like the Sniper dude is still pretty poor, but oh lord is the eversor a murder machine.
Hulksmash wrote: So anyone else making 85pts of space for the assassin of their choice each game?
Wouldn’t you need at least 170?
At least looking at the strategem and based on my (very possibly flawed) understanding of how that line under the strategem name works, wouldn’t you first need an Assassin in your list before you could use the Officio Assassinorum Strategem that gives you an(other) Assassin?
Im hoping whenever we get a new codex again they fully revamp us from the ground up, the earlier codexes are just bad. And whilst im enjoying Vigilus Defiant my army still feels lacking and if you cant tell im getting burnt out hahaha If we were done in light of how well written Tyranids and Dark Eldar codexes are that would be a dream come true to me. Those 2 books have crazy good internal balance and character, you can use 90% of units in the book and not feel like your gimping yourself.
No argument that Nids have a super strong single codex, but isn’t it famous for having like half a book of useless crap? Spore nonsense and whatnot? Even a unit that suicides by re-deepstriking turn 3 if you try to use its pop-up mobility more than once? I was under the impression that it was half fantastic and half “don’t bother”, just that the fantastic half is still like twice as long as our entire codex due to being a much older army.
In the past it was famous for that but not anymore. Of the top my head only the Maleceptor and Hauraspex is bad there rest of the units are playable.
Hulksmash wrote: So anyone else making 85pts of space for the assassin of their choice each game?
Wouldn’t you need at least 170?
At least looking at the strategem and based on my (very possibly flawed) understanding of how that line under the strategem name works, wouldn’t you first need an Assassin in your list before you could use the Officio Assassinorum Strategem that gives you an(other) Assassin?
Nah you just need an Imperium detachment to gain access to the stratagems.
Hulksmash wrote: So anyone else making 85pts of space for the assassin of their choice each game?
Wouldn’t you need at least 170?
At least looking at the strategem and based on my (very possibly flawed) understanding of how that line under the strategem name works, wouldn’t you first need an Assassin in your list before you could use the Officio Assassinorum Strategem that gives you an(other) Assassin?
You just need an Imperium detachment to have access to the Officio Assassinorum stratagems.
I think it's too good to pass up the Assassin. It's 85 points (or more!) that you definitely know are going to be good against your opponent. They're also clearly better than our Sicarans given their ridiculous rules.
I quite like the idea of subbing in a CP drain machine to put the pressure on stratagem heavy armies - Callidus
The Callidus will be important vs any army using a Castellan or Slamguinus'. Eversor for horses of some kind, Culexus is self explanatory, and lastly Vindicares more for helping finish off characters outside facing Genestealer Cults.
That's actually an important point you bring up about tanking. If the army doesn't have rerolls upon rerolls, a Culexus can effectively stop a bunch of Boyz or Gaunts in their tracks.
Going back a discussion for a moment the list document for the GT i'm attending this weekend has been published
for primary detachments (Most points)
Adeptus mechanicus 4
Astra militarum 3
Total players with at least one detatchment
Astra militarum 10
Adeptus mechanicus 8
That for me shows the huge shift from Guard to mechanicus at least within Scotland and I think their were 0 Admech primaries and only about 2 players prior to CA18
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's actually an important point you bring up about tanking. If the army doesn't have rerolls upon rerolls, a Culexus can effectively stop a bunch of Boyz or Gaunts in their tracks.
lash92 wrote: Just beware with the Cullexus if you soup in some psykers on your own, since her debuff now also effects allied psykers.
Regarding tankiness: How do you rate the Eversors? 4++ and 4+ fnp seems legit!
as a character its not terrible its not likely to get overwatched to death and it has an extra Wound and the 4+ fnp over other assassins making the second toughest but caught in the open it will still go down fair quick if your opponent wants it dead. Remember to be usefull its operateing ahead of the rest of your army and so is often easily targetable (its fight twice has a 50% chance of costing it a wound and your probably useing this) also remember the fnp costs CP each phase so to cover it vs overwatch then their CC then their shooting could be 3 cp / battle round.
as to the psyckers this is the mechanicus thread as a faction renound for its excessive use of psychic powers I beleive many of us will take the risk.
Ah. Can't believe I missed that. So just one Assassin. Still a very impactful 85 points. Even the Callidus as a default choice can really screw up a lot of lists.
I like it from both a gaming perspective and a fluff a single assassin randomly turns up geared to the situation at hand on only a rare occasion is a more serious comitment made and then its a big investment
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 2000 points 14 CP (-5)
Wondering if cutting a Robot for Assassin and upgrading my Styrix melee weapon is worth it. Feet and Reaper are both better than the Claw (the former against <T6, Titanics, and T8 5++ or better; the latter for T6-7; Ravager is the ideal Leman Russ killer), but the Rad-cleanser is a pretty solid flamer weapon.
It's great. I actually wrote a BR a few pages back when I faced off against Triptides Tripsides. I lost 4 Robots turn one, but capped majority of the objectives. He was forced to move up to contest. My Ryzaphrons came in turn two and killed two Riptides and essentially ended the game.
One thing that I sort of struggle with is the fact that I can't get both formations. I also am not sure what to cut for the Assassin and what relic I should take.
Hulksmash wrote: Meh, that's an argument to have in another topic.
So anyone else making 85pts of space for the assassin of their choice each game?
Definitively! The flexibility you get is just too good to pass on imo and the best thing is that you don't need to sacrifice a detachment anymore.
Which ones do you like most? I feel like the Sniper dude is still pretty poor, but oh lord is the eversor a murder machine.
The Vindicare with strategem can kill 2 Ork characters in one turn alone. He is awesome. Culexus got worse, Calidus still strong, Eversor...well, I dont like it.
But all my lists are 1915 points now at base
Can kill 2 but often wont more likely to than he was but can still fail to hit fail to wound or not deal enough damage
The eversor kills hoards hes a sideboard choice
Callidus got better in CC anf can now kill a smash cpt as well as make its pts in cp denial
In what way is the culexus worse life drain was made better (now ignores void shields) you really take it for the 6+BS which is still there and it can now make the enemy fight last which is huge when supporting other assaulters.
Hulksmash wrote: Meh, that's an argument to have in another topic.
So anyone else making 85pts of space for the assassin of their choice each game?
Definitively! The flexibility you get is just too good to pass on imo and the best thing is that you don't need to sacrifice a detachment anymore.
Which ones do you like most? I feel like the Sniper dude is still pretty poor, but oh lord is the eversor a murder machine.
The Vindicare with strategem can kill 2 Ork characters in one turn alone. He is awesome. Culexus got worse, Calidus still strong, Eversor...well, I dont like it.
But all my lists are 1915 points now at base
I think you overestimate his probabilities. First of all he needs to hit and wound which has a combined chance of just 70%, after this you need to do enough damage. Just calculate it for yourself, but even with the possibility of MW you don't reliable kill one, let even two chars. And that is not even considering things like line of sight or FnPs.
U02DAH4 sums it up quite nice imo. Just imagine 40 Genestealers crashing in your Catachan screen and all of them having to fight last lol.
Gotta take side with Suzuteo not only cause it was unfair and below polite many posts vs him but also cause we got like 500 pages of ad mech talking and testing and many should show some more respect .
To the point after moniring both list and the lvo pro wanna be and Suzuteo list it's obvious Suzuteo is the winner and you can test it your self facing the lists vs each other and more.
The fact you did good at lvo does not mean as much as you claim for your list and the fact you faced maiinly same enemies proves your matchup luck.
Still I got many to say for both lists .
List one lvo champ.
Don't get me wrong I agree with Suzuteo I wish you did finshed first in lvo with pure ad mech. I wish but if I'm correct you claim ad mech purity and you go a stationary gun line where
A) even breachers need to be close to Cawl for the buff so what xactly did you do. Removed Robots and onagers to circle 3 robotts with Terminator like breachers so what?? Robots are not good onagers not cheap. If I am to take Cawl Mars etc then I need Mars Gun line.
B) oh I'm gonna remove guad hla bla . Yeah right you gonna remove mortars 9D6 Los and find it where?? In solo ad mech . You talking mcho when you can sit back and mortar enemies Los. And that is the only reason you got some proper function in your list . Ofc 7 breachers able to fight revive heal T5 3w 1+/4++ it's superb body guards but mortars gve you the ability to remove enemy campping units . That's why you can play with 3 robots only bla bla.
C) pure ad mech k let me first see you remove the 40 shot moving T8 punisher and wee LL see your stationary other options why you took the rush and not a Robot spare us your grand strategy we know it as well.
D) ofc you don't need more than 5 infiltrators cause you got also guard let me see you as the rest of us having to play 10 infiltrators and loose them trying to actually bring results.
E) I'm sorry but from you list I can see you are. Not an ad mech pure . Split units like balistsri 3 robots 5 infiltrators none benefit from our buffs same as a Cawl buffing arrc breachers . It's not refined ad mech it's your plan and you made it work no question about it but will not have consistency without guard . Even is you bring some results eventually if you remove guard you will become a classic ad mech lossimg from vp and vs a refined like like a guard list no your expensive 8 man ranger omnispecx won't wiin cause high tier full competitive guard infantry have mobility options and melee options fixed in their build and you don't.
Ad mech pure list with no vanguard has no clue . Vanguard one unit only can advance shoot and provide -1 T. If you don't know how to use this then breachers melee benefits talks come later.
For Suzuteo.
Your list has mobility and I congrats you for making a superb list especially making the catachan vanguard v v good combo ec.
Unfortunately beyond that combo again we result in same talks.
If we are to make a soup list then we need to get some things basic.
A) limitation on detachments . Is vital to understand you need more detachments to make ad mech work full or you most likely dont play ad mech and you don't .
Guard knights combo is now already known and tested . Why take styrx why not take mortars .
You can't claim seriously that the winning list at lvo s not refined .
Castllan guard that's it. You will not gain anything with styrix even the mobility won't matter cause he is alone and won't make the results in melee you dream of vs other knighs. While castellan even 50+ points increase you know castellan is best shooting unit. You take guard and can't find 99 points for a mortar come on. Why we had earthshakers please. Can't chase all eenemy scouts on all hills . Still your list has a flavor of old times and it's superb overall great job.
As for the ad mech talk. Pure ad mech ok I'm with you. Pure can't be solo competitive . Maybe team lsts solo list able to face all can happen cause ad mech does not have all options yet.( Psych.fly.transport.hq.
What I suggest ad mech so you don't read my crap
2 detachment ad mch so you can make one mixed for all options and assassin's . If you go for knights you will be forced to go lots of knghtd or castellan solo with guard.
Assassin's can provide what you need for each enemy and still make a proper list . If you don't get a mxd battalion you can benefit from all options .
Main detachmen
A) Mars if you going for robots Cawl
B) Stygis for mblit dragoon balistsarii heavy
Second dtach mixed with highlits
A) ryza destreyers
B) vangqrd graia
C)Agripiina breaches
You need to master for results.
Mving 5+ dragoons
Using 10 infiltrators as Mars split fire deep strik properly
Utilize vanguard and breachers ( don't forget buffs)
If you don't go Cawl you most likely need manipulus and lasc balistarii.
As always even if rread my post as offensive I'm only suggesting things and it's not m native language . My suggestions not to offend none hf.
(The Rusty 17 is almost always Graia.)
