So then, after doing said maths, the answer is actually yes, it does give advantages to hordey armies (even if indirectly rather than directly, this is still the end result as you laid out)? Who are even stronger than gunlines and in even less need of a buff than shooting this edition?
Pure gunlines are not good but armies like tau and imperial soup like the castellan which have strong gunline elements are really strong.
House rules which deny los at ground floor level strongly weaken gunlines but thats not the edition rules its ITC. Play the same lists by the actual rule on planet bowling ball and you will get a different result.
Most players I know would recognise shooting is too strong this edition which was why they introduced the first turn cover strategem and remains so.
I can think of 1 game at my last GT where I lost 900pts before i had a turn.
The pure gunlines big problem is it needs to table to win normally which disadvantages it to armies that can board control
In itc terrain I have found infiltrators to work really well. Especially in a mars detachment deepstriking them and using the mortal wound strat. Have any of you had success using 10-20 infiltrators?
Castellan is less an issue with shooty being strong this edition and more a special case with undercosted knights and unrestrained CP minmaxing fueling the strategems that make them even more powerful. More a knights + soup thing, same as certain Eldar lists are soup things too.
I guess I haven’t played enough Tau to know but they seem a far lesser threat than Ork or Tyranid horde in this edition. As for planet bowling ball, do any GW official events actually play that way? Does anyone even casually do so if they have a choice? Seems unfair to punish shooting armies for a style of game basically no-one plays and is easily remedied through proper use of terrain, without the need for nerfs or whatnot.
@IVIOOSE: I think 10 infiltrators has a place now. Ideally in a Mars cawlstar list you’d drop them turn 3 after using Wrath of Mars on turn 1+2 for your robots - by turn 3 the enemy probably will have punched a hole in that unit or else tied them up in close combat, so you can drop the infiltrators and use it on them to clear any targets too distant for robots, or hidden behind stuff. Just be sure to clear some deepstrike space for them in turn 1+2 so you can put them exactly where they’re needed, or else they won’t end up getting a good angle on much.
By the data tau have hovered around 4th-5th all edition. They are generally less of a threat then orks unless you play with chess clocks but they do well enough.
Most events arn't GW official if anything GW run a minority of events and terrsin can vary heavily litterally bowling ball no but i have played on tables this year with just los blocking terrain no cover and a lot with with no enclosed ruins. Terrain has a huge impact if your used to it being dense it will weaken shooty armies but thats not the game as a whole.
I'm never convinced by expensive units your planning not to get value out of for 2 turns. As a secondary detatchment on t2 it works but if your pure mars im not sure
U02dah4 wrote: By the data tau have hovered around 4th-5th all edition. They are generally less of a threat then orks unless you play with chess clocks but they do well enough.
Most events arn't GW official if anything GW run a minority of events and terrsin can vary heavily litterally bowling ball no but i have played on tables this year with just los blocking terrain no cover and a lot with with no enclosed ruins. Terrain has a huge impact if your used to it being dense it will weaken shooty armies but thats not the game as a whole.
I'm never convinced by expensive units your planning not to get value out of for 2 turns. As a secondary detatchment on t2 it works but if your pure mars im not sure
They’re a tool that otherwise doesn’t exist in Mars’s armoury - 100% safe and unkillable for two turns, then able to drop a bomb of firepower situationally where it’s needed mid-game (and maybe snag a key objective too). Anything else a Mars army could bring has the potential to be shot off the board or otherwise killed or tied up by melee. Having a fresh unmolested tool mid-game is super valuable. It’s not like every unit can live up to its potential in its first turn or two every time anyway. If I could guarantee the charge I’d definitely be deepstriking Fulgurites too.
U02dah4 wrote: I'm never convinced by expensive units your planning not to get value out of for 2 turns. As a secondary detatchment on t2 it works but if your pure mars im not sure
they are now only 90pts for 5 models (180 for 10) not that expensive really...
IVIOOSE wrote: In itc terrain I have found infiltrators to work really well. Especially in a mars detachment deepstriking them and using the mortal wound strat. Have any of you had success using 10-20 infiltrators?
I LOVE Infiltrators. One of the few units with natural mobility in the army and provides an excellent amount of attacks once you use the Goad loadout. Can't think of a use for the Power Sword one though.
IVIOOSE wrote: In itc terrain I have found infiltrators to work really well. Especially in a mars detachment deepstriking them and using the mortal wound strat. Have any of you had success using 10-20 infiltrators?
I LOVE Infiltrators. One of the few units with natural mobility in the army and provides an excellent amount of attacks once you use the Goad loadout. Can't think of a use for the Power Sword one though.
Best I can tell they're the only melee weapon we have with AP aside from Kastelan and Kataphrons power fists. I guess they're handy if you play against lots of Marines. They're more consistent and generalist weapons too since you're not hoping for 6's
I've got 4 I built because they looked cool and I kind of regret it now, the taser goads/flechette pistols seem a lot more useful
Yep I use the tasers and flechette blasters and they are amazing vs a lot of things. Deepstriking and going for reapers out of los from the rest of your army or lootas. Using strat against on average nets you 8 mortal wounds and then 8 saves which is not too bad. Also if you lucky enough to get them on an objective and have shroudspalm up you have a 2+\5++ which is fairly durable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m also looking at putting twin lascannons on my 3 single ironstriders in my admech brigade to threaten knights and vehicles more as the dunecrawlers already have an autocannons on them. Ironstriders are somewhat easy to hide in itc terrain and with them and the dunecrawlers being a threat to the knight it really spreads out his firepower which you can heal on your own turn.
The caveat to hordes being strong is that they are limited by physical space and playing time. You can bring 400+ Guardsmen, but they cannot train all their lasguns on the same target to kill all threats within 6 turns or 150-180 minutes. Enter the firebase: a group of specialized shooting units with greater range and power than your infantry.
Knights are strong because shooting armies are strong, and Knights are very strong against shooting armies' firebases.
In terms of firebases though, I think we're finally getting a leg up. Plasmaphrons and Robots are an amazingly powerful combination that thoroughly kills everything in the T5-8 band. The 36" range is not amazing, but it's sufficient to control wide swaths of the board; besides, it's not like it's a non-LOS weapon.
To complement these two, Icarus Crawlers is my personal favorite. They are almost never without a target, and they do amazing damage without the need for any stratagem support.
Concerning Infiltrators, I like them, but I don't think having something that fragile compete with Robots for shooting at 2000 points is worthwhile. In lower point games, Infiltrators can stick around a few turns. At 2000 points, they have to get WoM and make their points back immediately. Robots make Power Swords totally obsolete. And the Flechette Blaster is clearly superior for Wrath of Mars.
IVIOOSE wrote: Yea I have been running two units of 10 to deepstrike turn 2 and turn 3. Decent mortal wound output with the strat and great vs orks.
I would avoid double-dipping here. No need to deploy the same tool twice in most cases, and if you’re dropping them turn 2 then you’re probably wasting what should still be a great turn of shooting with the more powerful Robots + Wrath of Mars combo. Just one max squad dropped Turn 3 (when robots will probably have taken a beating and are no longer as good with WoM as a full squad of unharmed infiltrators) is the perfect sweetspot imo.
And yes, flachette blasters n goads is the better way to run them. Power swords might have had a niche except that deepstrike charging is more lilely to fail than succeed and infiltrators are so easy to blow off the board with minimal firepower that them being able to use swords is based on being very lucky. Meanwhile the flachette outperforms the stub by itself, even before taking into account the synergy with WoM.
I guess I take two units as I do not take caul robots as they are too points heavy for my list and too static for my liking. Just having to burn a cp to move and shoot normally does not seem worth while to me. Also at Lvo they are too big of a target and a castellan can pick up the entire unit of 4 in a turn which is terrible.
Funny. Robots are more mobile now than they were before. And even then, they were our best unit by a long shot. Also, you don't have to give him Assault weapons. In fact, the only times it is useful are first turn when you need to saturate a target or when you need to Advance and then shoot.
Robots are too big of a target... to Castellans...
Raven Castellans with the stratagem deal an average of 16.8533548 wounds to a unit of Shroudpsalmed Aegis Robots. So expect to lose 2-3 if the Castellan gets angle and range on you with all weapons (and chooses to shoot them instead of your Kataphrons or Dragoons or whatever). The Robots, once you change them to Protector mode, they can deal an average of 22.5 wounds to a Castellan with Rotated Ion Shields; after taking casualties, they deal 15. The Kataphrons then deal an average of 10.89 wounds.
U02dah4 wrote: I'm never convinced by expensive units your planning not to get value out of for 2 turns. As a secondary detatchment on t2 it works but if your pure mars im not sure
they are now only 90pts for 5 models (180 for 10) not that expensive really...
U02dah4 wrote: By the data tau have hovered around 4th-5th all edition. They are generally less of a threat then orks unless you play with chess clocks but they do well enough.
Most events arn't GW official if anything GW run a minority of events and terrsin can vary heavily litterally bowling ball no but i have played on tables this year with just los blocking terrain no cover and a lot with with no enclosed ruins. Terrain has a huge impact if your used to it being dense it will weaken shooty armies but thats not the game as a whole.
I'm never convinced by expensive units your planning not to get value out of for 2 turns. As a secondary detatchment on t2 it works but if your pure mars im not sure
They’re a tool that otherwise doesn’t exist in Mars’s armoury - 100% safe and unkillable for two turns, then able to drop a bomb of firepower situationally where it’s needed mid-game (and maybe snag a key objective too). Anything else a Mars army could bring has the potential to be shot off the board or otherwise killed or tied up by melee. Having a fresh unmolested tool mid-game is super valuable. It’s not like every unit can live up to its potential in its first turn or two every time anyway. If I could guarantee the charge I’d definitely be deepstriking Fulgurites too.
Its a tool that often exists in your allied detatchments. If i just wanted a cheap objective grabber a rough rider squad for example does that at a quarter of the price
If your useing them as a Wom they need to impact T2 because otherwise you have 10% of your arrmy doing nothing. Say you took 2 lascannon ballistarii instead thats 20 pts cheaper and 8 lascannon shots impacting the game on 4 T1 and T2 now thats enough shots to wipe a russ. Which then wont be hiting the rest of your army cos its been lascannoned off the table.
Now as a mars detatchment in a non mars army where it can drop in t2 and there is no competition for WOM the extra mobility and impact can be worth it
I didn't really play many tourneys last year due to work (new position, lots of travelling), but I was very glad to hear of the chess clocks. The slow play problem was aggravating in the extreme.
I think having one unit of 10x Infiltrators is fine, even in an army with Cawlstar. You better make them count when they land though. Two units is too many. I would rather bring Dragoons or extra Crawlers at that point.
I think without WoM they may not be that good. If I’m using them T2 and without WoM I’m usually using them to clear screens or chaff that the robots can’t reach, which can be handy but isn’t really a big chunk of damage. More just utility, opening up a more advantageous deepstrike next turn (like assassins against a screen neurothrope castle). But then you need even more off the board.
As for swapping them for more ironstriders, I think that’s losing the tool in exchange for more on-paper firepower - we have lots of that already and one big issue is its vulnerability to shooting and charges. The advantage to having some of your firepower off the board for one or two turns is keeping it safe so it can have a more powerful impact towards the midgame when tides can be turned or leads solidified. We’d kill for a way to make our melee that safe and still effective on the turn they arrived!
Yes, having something on the board turn 1 is handy, but realistically it’s not going to be doing 100% of its damage for 5 turns. It’ll probably get shot and lose its firepower or die completely by turn 3 or 4. So it’s not like non-deepstriking units don’t also skip turns of effectiveness - they just skip later turns rather than earlier ones. An infiltrator bomb meanwhile is exactly the same turn 2 or 3 - it is most likely to appear, drop some shooting, maybefail a charge, then die. What turn that occurs should be a tactical consideration, not based on being as early as possible even when it might mean them not being able to reach a more important target or not being able to use WoM because the robots are still using it more effectively that turn.
So Cawl's Sometimes Moving Castle got a small inverse boost due to the kataphron buff in that having the ability to use the Elimination Maniple Strat is easier to do now
Now I'm still convinced Grav is mostly hot garbage in 8th and will be running plasma katas but the thing is if i make them Ryza, then I cant maniple, but as Mars, they do lose that +1 to wound and +1 damage.
Am I looking at the math on grav wrong? It looks terrible on paper
On a side note, I just realized something: If you play "as if" = "is," then you can use Infoslave Skull and Wrath of Mars to make your Infiltrators shoot reinforcements. You can also use Protector Doctrina Imperative, Hm...
Can everyone please ask FAQ about this? Infoslave Skull + Wrath of Mars / Protector Doctrina / Plasma Specialists or Cawl/Dominus rerolls? It is a huge deal.
Send to <40kFAQ@gwplc.com>:
When a unit shoots with the Infoslave Skull Stratagem, can the Wrath of Mars, Protector Doctrina Imperative, or Plasma Specialists Stratagems be used?
Furthermore, is it affected by Shooting phase aura abilities such as Belisarius Cawl's Lord of Mars or a Tech-Priest Dominus's Lord of the Machine Cult abilities?
WrentheFaceless wrote: So Cawl's Sometimes Moving Castle got a small inverse boost due to the kataphron buff in that having the ability to use the Elimination Maniple Strat is easier to do now
Now I'm still convinced Grav is mostly hot garbage in 8th and will be running plasma katas but the thing is if i make them Ryza, then I cant maniple, but as Mars, they do lose that +1 to wound and +1 damage.
Am I looking at the math on grav wrong? It looks terrible on paper
If your looking at 1 turn shooting grav vs plasma (ryza) plasma wins hands down. However even the least clued up opponent will realise how strong it is and focus it and each casualty greatly diminishes the squads effectiveness. your opponent doesnt need to wipe the squad to make it ineffective. You won't get t2.
The best grav alternative is agripinaa. This offers you stronger overwatch a strat which resurrects the whole squad and potentially reroll 1's to w vs vehicles if they are not all wiped. Your oppenent can't leave one or two models alive so either has to ignore it or wipe it completely.
This naturally is better vs hoards and the extra survivability means that you may get later rounds of shooting which cumulatively may be more effective.
Mars isnt great because youll likely have a better wom target and stygies doesnt offer enough of a protection.boost.
WrentheFaceless wrote: So Cawl's Sometimes Moving Castle got a small inverse boost due to the kataphron buff in that having the ability to use the Elimination Maniple Strat is easier to do now
Now I'm still convinced Grav is mostly hot garbage in 8th and will be running plasma katas but the thing is if i make them Ryza, then I cant maniple, but as Mars, they do lose that +1 to wound and +1 damage.
Am I looking at the math on grav wrong? It looks terrible on paper
Without doing the maths myself, I feel like Mars plasma is still the best option due to all the synergy. +1 to wound and +1 damage aren’t worth missing out on Elimination Volley or Cawl’s rerolls, or making the robots miss out on Elimination Volley also.
As for Grav, it lacks a good target at the moment. If it was 2 damage against 3+ Sv stuff then it’d be a more reiable Primaris-killer, but this edition rarely throws a horde of Primaris at us anyway. No maths I’ve seen has put Grav higher than non-Ryza plasma yet, except against specific multiwound MEQs.
Non ryza Plasma overcharged 6x 3.5x0.84×0.84×0.84 = 12.4 kills
However given those squads are normally capped at 10 models both have an expectancy of wiping the target so theres no real difference.
Target wise vs 1w models and stacked -1 grav is the better choice vs high T plasma is better but the performance difference is minimal without ryza.
The same guns vs 1w MEQ is 14.1 kills with Grav while plasma doesn't change.
Orks/aeldari/tau/guardsman spam/ cultist spam/geanstealer spam all favour Grav.
Castellan/Knights/Monstrous creatures all favour plasma
Cawls rerolls arnt a factor because realistically reroll 1's is all you need on 2+BS. Plus most players advocateing ryza will be taking a secondary detatchment with it and main a different forgeworld
I think the easiest way to analyze this situation is to compare their highest potential output against a Castellan, which is our must-kill enemy in a TAC meta:
6x Mars Plasmaphrons + 6x Mars Robots
6.8056 + 26.67 = 33.472
6x Mars Graviphrons + 6x Mars Robots
6.481 + 26.67 = 33.148
So, the pros/cons of going pure Mars are...
+Slightly higher damage output
+No need to invest in Dominus +Access to Mars's second Canticle
+Possibility of a Stygies VIII or Lucius detachment
+Much more robust against minus to hit
-Much more CP hungry; expenditure is almost always all-or-nothing (5-6 CP instead of 2-5)
-Much more reliant on Robots
-Robots and Phrons cannot operate independently
-Lose access to Master of Biosplicing
-Lose access to Graia stratagem in a mixed detachment
Personally, I am still going with Ryza. It seems much more flexible, and there is redundancy in having two threats rather than one really big threat consisting of two units tied at the hip.
I really don't think Graviphrons work. M/P/TEQs aren't a big threat, and I actually think there are better ways to deal with them anyway.
You pick the target plasma is optimised for and you will find plasma does best however my experience is you face three aeldari lists and a horde per castellan list. Sure its a tough game but your not likely to face it more than once
. Sonething is wrong with your maths and the difference is marginal unless your ryza
Your looking at 9.6 with mars grav not useing wom
You looking at 20.4 ryza plasmatrons
Your looking 10.2 non ryza plasma
To give Kataphrons +2BS you need the robots in Ryza too, right? And they’re now missing on 2s which is a LOT of lost damage when you have 72-108 dice being rolled.
Also given the cost of Servitor Maniple (1CP before battle, 1CP to give +1 to hit) I’d say that’s similarly CP costly to Mars if you’re going to also use Elimination Volley alongside that. You’ll save the 2CP of WoM but spend 2CP giving an extra +1 to hit (while losing more damage on missed 2s and no mortal wounds from the robots).
Otherwise good analysis. The issue I find with grav is it wants to be pointed at the same target as robots, but without the volume of shooting. Redundant and outperformed.
Yes thats kinda the biggest problem with ryza in that its great for 1 unit of kataphrons but does little for the rest so your making everything else suboptimal or sticking it in a 2nd detatchment even reducing ryza to a 3+bs its still the most effective single shot.
I do want to give my kataphrons +2bs and robots +1BS though
3+ rerolling 1's (from dominous) on robots is similar to 4+ rerolling all misses from cawl till you factor in WoM but i would probably advocate mixed forgeworlds myself so wom can always go on another target.
As to robots vs kataphrons as a straight shooting unit vs 4++ castellan
At similar pts
2 robots 4.64 3+rerolling 1's double shoot mode
4 grav 6.46 2+ rerolling 1's
Robots are t7 3+5++ in this mode while kataprons T5 4+5++ but in agripinaa your kataphrons can come back if not wiped
Hey there's someone at my LGS who wrote a test list at 2000 pts consisting of 10 Dakkastellans (6+4), Cawl, Castellan Knight with Cawl's Wrath and whatever a Castellan uses these days, and the rest I forgot. I think this list is severely hit or miss and can be quickly shut down by no-overwatch armies or charges from out of LoS, and will suffer against long-range gunline or even just Riptides. There'll be almost no board control, too, so I believe it's really risky. What do you guys think of this ? We play GW missions only at LGS, including CA.
Aaranis wrote: Hey there's someone at my LGS who wrote a test list at 2000 pts consisting of 10 Dakkastellans (6+4), Cawl, Castellan Knight with Cawl's Wrath and whatever a Castellan uses these days, and the rest I forgot. I think this list is severely hit or miss and can be quickly shut down by no-overwatch armies or charges from out of LoS, and will suffer against long-range gunline or even just Riptides. There'll be almost no board control, too, so I believe it's really risky. What do you guys think of this ? We play GW missions only at LGS, including CA.
Yea, too many eggs in 1 basket
Thanks for the feedback, cofirmed my suspicions, Mars plasma seems to be the best all rounder
2k list currently considering, 2 bats and a vanguard detachment
Any cool Character Allies? As we lack HQ options I want to spice my games up a bit.
I noticed assassins, like evesor assassins could be good and fun with a huge Betastrike list, using high range weapons from afar and heavily deepstriking turn 2.
Inquisitors, I chose Greyfax atm, could be fun with smite as a count as angry machine spirit and buffing LD for a list with advancing infantry using graia.
Edit: I posted those 2 lists code named Betastrike and Relentless March in the List forum if anyone is interested.
I'm in the process of finaliseing my feb gt going down the grav route
Brigade agripinaa servitor maniple
TPD eradication macrostubber
2 enginseer
1 x 5 kataphrons 5 grav 3 flamer 2 phospur
5 x vanguard
1 hoplites + data teather
2 x servitor
2 balistarii autocannon
1 ballistarii lascannon
1 x dakkabots (2)
2 x neutronager + extra stubber
Mars vanguard
1 enginseer
2 x hoplite plus data teather
1 infiltrator taser goads x10
Cadian
1 company commander +boltgun
1 primaris psyker
3 x infantry squad
Automatically Appended Next Post:
0XFallen wrote: Any cool Character Allies? As we lack HQ options I want to spice my games up a bit.
I noticed assassins, like evesor assassins could be good and fun with a huge Betastrike list, using high range weapons from afar and heavily deepstriking turn 2.
Inquisitors, I chose Greyfax atm, could be fun with smite as a count as angry machine spirit and buffing LD for a list with advancing infantry using graia.
Edit: I posted those 2 lists code named Betastrike and Relentless March in the List forum if anyone is interested.
You might find coteaz better 2 powers per turn is better than 2 denies.
Assassins are fun one culexus is an useful choice eversors and culexus are still the bread and butter
Finally got to test my Agripinaa + Lucius list in a friendly game against Night Lords, tabled them turn 3-4 basically as we sped up the game near the end and he only had two bikes alive. 6 plasma Destroyers were good, they wiped 5 Terminators in a single overcharged 3+ volley, but whiffed against Marines in cover due to good saves from my opponent. Loads of cultists dead with only three flamers once.
As I understand it, you can bring back a Kataphron with Biosplicing, and then fix him up, as both action happen at the end of the movement phase ?
DS Lucius Robots were great fun, the 4 of them striked with their Datasmith, took 11 wounds off a unit of Spawns, punched a Rhino to death (with both fight phases though), and when the 8 Berserkers, Apostle and Sorcerer that were inside charged them back (I wished I could use the flamer then, but in Conqueror it's not possible), three of them died in two rounds but I punched to death 7 Berserkers, the Apostle and the Sorcerer, the remaining Power Fist sergeant ran away. My lone Robot survivor ended the game by punching a lone Chaos Spawn on an objective. Love the bastards.
Play of the game were the Servitors, had two units, one charging a Terminator Chaos Lord with 1W remaining, and the other a Contemptor Dreadnought with a 4++ in CC with two wounds remaining. The Lord died to my 4 Servitors hitting on 6 and the Contemptor to the Servitors hitting on 5, it was so glorious my opponent thought the Servitors were busted. +1 S Canticle is really perfect on them.
I'll play the same list against another Mechanicus List this Tuesday, that'll be the first time I play against AdMech since I started them in 7E. I love the list so far.
U02dah4 wrote: You pick the target plasma is optimised for and you will find plasma does best however my experience is you face three aeldari lists and a horde per castellan list. Sure its a tough game but your not likely to face it more than once
. Sonething is wrong with your maths and the difference is marginal unless your ryza
Your looking at 9.6 with mars grav not useing wom
You looking at 20.4 ryza plasmatrons
Your looking 10.2 non ryza plasma
Assuming 6 kataphrons 2+BS reroling 1's 4++
You're right. I shorted the Graviphrons by 1 damage.
6.481 + 26.67 = 33.148
Pomguo wrote: To give Kataphrons +2BS you need the robots in Ryza too, right? And they’re now missing on 2s which is a LOT of lost damage when you have 72-108 dice being rolled.
Also given the cost of Servitor Maniple (1CP before battle, 1CP to give +1 to hit) I’d say that’s similarly CP costly to Mars if you’re going to also use Elimination Volley alongside that. You’ll save the 2CP of WoM but spend 2CP giving an extra +1 to hit (while losing more damage on missed 2s and no mortal wounds from the robots).
Otherwise good analysis. The issue I find with grav is it wants to be pointed at the same target as robots, but without the volume of shooting. Redundant and outperformed.
Gah, yes. You do need the Dominus for the Mindlock.
Robots tend to last more than two turns... unless the Reapers or Lascannons have some really hot dice.
Aaranis wrote: Hey there's someone at my LGS who wrote a test list at 2000 pts consisting of 10 Dakkastellans (6+4), Cawl, Castellan Knight with Cawl's Wrath and whatever a Castellan uses these days, and the rest I forgot. I think this list is severely hit or miss and can be quickly shut down by no-overwatch armies or charges from out of LoS, and will suffer against long-range gunline or even just Riptides. There'll be almost no board control, too, so I believe it's really risky. What do you guys think of this ? We play GW missions only at LGS, including CA.
I once thought it would be amusing to play a list of 2x4 Robots with 2x3 Basilisks. The rest being infantry. LOL. That being said, why not 2x5 Robots? Seems less flexible to have two differently sized units.
Aaranis wrote: As I understand it, you can bring back a Kataphron with Biosplicing, and then fix him up, as both action happen at the end of the movement phase ?
...
Play of the game were the Servitors, had two units, one charging a Terminator Chaos Lord with 1W remaining, and the other a Contemptor Dreadnought with a 4++ in CC with two wounds remaining. The Lord died to my 4 Servitors hitting on 6 and the Contemptor to the Servitors hitting on 5, it was so glorious my opponent thought the Servitors were busted. +1 S Canticle is really perfect on them.
Yes, you choose the order for Biosplicing and repairs.
Naked Servitors are actually good for their points! You can use them to absorb overwatch, to punch characters to death with S6 or S8, and even Abhor the Witch if they are Graia. Plus, you can pair them with Vanguard (wound Knights on a 3+ LOL) or use Acquisition at All Costs on them for +1A.
Hi folks, I'm putting together an Ad Mech army that's more infantry heavy than normal, without as much as a firebase - are there any glaring weaknesses in this list that you can spot?
Edit Based on decent feedback I've 1) Created larger squads where possible to get better use of Stragegms 2) Tweak the list to stretch out to 2 Batallians and a Super Heavy detachment, for, what 22 CPs come game time? 3) Increased the amount of anti-tank/Knight weaponry on the board 4) Added the Graia Forgeworld for some CC protection and anti-psycher strategms (especially since I have the CPs for it)
STYGES VII - BATTALION DETACHMENT
HQ Tech Priest Dominus - Eradication Ray - Macro Stubber
@MIKEtheMERCILESS
I feel every codex has a few gimmicks, and AdMech's gimmicks are "extremely efficient FLU shooting" and durability/repair.
That is, we take large units of vehicles and infantry with good shooting and stack a ton of stratagems on them to output wounds. We also have a ton of ways to top off wounds, and virtually everything multi-wound model also has an invulnerable save. A ton of our vehicles also lack a wound table.
So the primary reason why I don't think your list will be too competitive is that it doesn't really make good use of the gimmicks we have. Going Stygies simply for the sake of the minus to hit and not considering how best to use our FWs is just doubling down on durability in a weird way; we're not like Craftworld Eldar that need to figure out ways to remedy fragility.
I would strongly consider getting rid of some of the MSUs that can be using stratagems and adding a Mars Spearhead or Vanguard detachment and stacking some larger units in that detachment.
Suzuteo wrote: @MIKEtheMERCILESS
I feel every codex has a few gimmicks, and AdMech's gimmicks are "extremely efficient FLU shooting" and durability/repair.
That is, we take large units of vehicles and infantry with good shooting and stack a ton of stratagems on them to output wounds. We also have a ton of ways to top off wounds, and virtually everything multi-wound model also has an invulnerable save. A ton of our vehicles also lack a wound table.
So the primary reason why I don't think your list will be too competitive is that it doesn't really make good use of the gimmicks we have. Going Stygies simply for the sake of the minus to hit and not considering how best to use our FWs is just doubling down on durability in a weird way; we're not like Craftworld Eldar that need to figure out ways to remedy fragility.
I would strongly consider getting rid of some of the MSUs that can be using stratagems and adding a Mars Spearhead or Vanguard detachment and stacking some larger units in that detachment.
Thanks! But you've lost me on the FLU acronym - what is that?
If I have a stygies battalion for staying back turn 1 and a lucius battalion for a huge deepstrike turn 2. Is it worth putting the 10 flechette infiltrators in lucius with the mars keyword for WoM? I dont know if the lucius dogma is worth as you can still use the stratagems?
It is fully my intention to win best 'admech' at the LVO. So let us dispense with all notions of fairness or fluff. I have two requirements: (1) 50.1% points much be admech (2) it must be winning.
I think I am onto something here. This is the hokiest mess I can cobble together that might be able to take all comers.
Mixed ADMECH beta strike battalion 1 TPD - lucius (usually teleport relic) 1 Enginseer - graia 12(1) plasmaphrons - lucius (deepstrike) 10(2) rangers - graia 4 servitors - agripinna 10(1) infiltrators - mars (deepstrike) 2(1) dakkabots - lucius (deepstrike)
BLANGELS battalion 2 Smash captains 15(3) bolter scouts (I really need to remodel into melee but too lazy/cheap) 5(1) devastators with 1x heavy bolter and cherub (for 2d3 mortal wounds on first turn)
VALHALLA mans shoot at triangle trapped front ranked guys battalion 2 Commanders (one with Grand Strategist and Petrov's only 1 of you die to morale pistol) 60 mans, bolters on sergeants
This is as hokey and as gamey as I can think of. It leave no good targets for turn 1 alpha strikes and has ways of delivering ranged mortal wounds. It has no non-LOS firepower ... but I have smash captains to get in there and do something about the bad things. And as much as I want that new guard artillery regiment to work, all I can think abotu is how tall all those guard arty things are. Castellans can move 10 inches and shoot 48 and are a foot tall. They will see those arty tanks.
Wulfey are you using any specialist detachments for this? Only thing jumping out at me is maybe the Servitor detachment so you can get some extra utility on the Destroyers, 2 cp to give all 12 of them the +5 invuln may be worth it, plus you can get the extra BS on kataphrons specifically to get them to bs2+ for a 3rd CP. This list is going to be CP crazy to the max either way, so I wouldn't be surprised if you said you can't afford the extra CP at this point.
For the Valhallans, I run them a ton as a main army. You may find it worthwhile to give them some sort of weapon upgrade such as a plasma gun. You could shave off 6 of those rangers and afford a plasma gun for each infantry squad. Since firing into combat removes the ability to FRFSRF it may help you if something a bit beefier is attempting to lock your guys up. Yes you have no reroll innately to prevent overheats but I often found the trade-off more than worth it just to ensure someone doesn't tie you up with a random rhino or something. Additionally, plan on using the grenadiers strat a lot so you can throw 10 frag grenades into combat, which is essentially FRFSRF on a squad just limited to a 6" range and a CP spent.
Either way, the Valhallans "shoot them out of combat" trick is a risky one. It is usually do or die when it comes into play so just prepare yourself for that. It has won me games but just remember that it is no guarantee, you will have times where you gamble with it and one enemy model survives preventing you from shooting that turn. Other than that Valhallans look solid and if you don't like the look of plasma on them, GL's may be a decent alternative at 3pts per weapon. They lose no effectiveness at range and may be a better choice to keep up with all you're deepstriking admech and Blood Angels. I would heavily recommend playing the Valhallans a lot and learning their quirks, they take a bit to learn just what they're capable of.
EDIT: One last thing that I'm sure you already know. Do not just mathhammer the Valhallans firing into combat. I would heavily recommend playing mock games against yourself and seeing it in action. A lot of really weird interactions happen with it based on what is considered in combat, how units conga line out, etc. I've had Valhallans firing into a combat congaline who weren't even in range of the friendly unit they were attempting to rescue or even able to see it, so get ready for some fun rules discussions with judges.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Wulfey are you using any specialist detachments for this? Only thing jumping out at me is maybe the Servitor detachment so you can get some extra utility on the Destroyers, 2 cp to give all 12 of them the +5 invuln may be worth it, plus you can get the extra BS on kataphrons specifically to get them to bs2+ for a 3rd CP. This list is going to be CP crazy to the max either way, so I wouldn't be surprised if you said you can't afford the extra CP at this point.
For the Valhallans, I run them a ton as a main army. You may find it worthwhile to give them some sort of weapon upgrade such as a plasma gun. You could shave off 6 of those rangers and afford a plasma gun for each infantry squad. Since firing into combat removes the ability to FRFSRF it may help you if something a bit beefier is attempting to lock your guys up. Yes you have no reroll innately to prevent overheats but I often found the trade-off more than worth it just to ensure someone doesn't tie you up with a random rhino or something. Additionally, plan on using the grenadiers strat a lot so you can throw 10 frag grenades into combat, which is essentially FRFSRF on a squad just limited to a 6" range and a CP spent.
Either way, the Valhallans "shoot them out of combat" trick is a risky one. It is usually do or die when it comes into play so just prepare yourself for that. It has won me games but just remember that it is no guarantee, you will have times where you gamble with it and one enemy model survives preventing you from shooting that turn. Other than that Valhallans look solid and if you don't like the look of plasma on them, GL's may be a decent alternative at 3pts per weapon. They lose no effectiveness at range and may be a better choice to keep up with all you're deepstriking admech and Blood Angels. I would heavily recommend playing the Valhallans a lot and learning their quirks, they take a bit to learn just what they're capable of.
EDIT: One last thing that I'm sure you already know. Do not just mathhammer the Valhallans firing into combat. I would heavily recommend playing mock games against yourself and seeing it in action. A lot of really weird interactions happen with it based on what is considered in combat, how units conga line out, etc. I've had Valhallans firing into a combat congaline who weren't even in range of the friendly unit they were attempting to rescue or even able to see it, so get ready for some fun rules discussions with judges.
For sure, thanks for the tips. Yeah it was implicitly a SERVITOR detachment with the associated 5++ strategem and WLT to resurrect plasmaphron bases. Yeah, i haven't used valhallans that much. My VALHALLA thinking is more along the lines of: please roll 1s to kill the 1 triangle trapped guardsmen so the real stuff can shoot. I am not hoping they kill the enemy models, but that would be cool too I guess. THe idea with such a list is that you have a devastating beta strike that is very difficult to stop, and might even survive to shoot twice. Mathhammer says that you need the mortal wounds from the infiltrators and the heavy bolters to kill a castellan knight, and that isn't guaranteed. But against any other list that doesn't have T8 and 3++, woe be to your models. What do you even AGENTS_OF_VECT? The beta strike hits with 10CP of power ups at once. I am still working on this one with the group, but likely one of the smash captains gets cheaper and doesn't get any CP since the list is short on CP as it is. Or the second smash captain just becomes lemartes and a second devastator squad gets squeezed in. I think I am done trying to make a cawlstar dakkabot list make sense tho. There are just too many "you went second" auto losses out there. Most Eldar lists can wreck a kastelon herd and the castellan makes my kastelons look like a risky choice.
Also, RIP dragoons. Like damn this meta is so bad for them. Dark Reapers and Lootas and Knights just invalidate high dragoon count armies.
A very good point as well, using it to kill hostages can be very handy. I've done it a few times, just be ready for the inevitable unkillable guardsman. If that is your main plan, work on keeping your guys just barely in range of Mk45, you can pull the guy keeping you in aura to make it easier to take battleshock. You don't need to wipe the unit, just have enough guys run to pick off the hostages, which even with Valhallans rule will still happen fairly reliably. Pull your Sergeants first as casualties and you can ensure a morale check even after 1 casualty. It's a risky move but even a 16% chance to pull a model of your choice after combat can suddenly allow your guardsmen to FRFSRF instead of having to use the fire into combat order. This is another really niche use for plasma as well. If I know I'm going to have a squad used as a hostage I can overcharge the plasma, kill my own guy, and up the odds of "free hostage removal" at the end of the phase, or make the charge harder, etc. They're incredibly rare tricks to use, but good to know if that is your strategy.
But yes, I'm amazed more people don't run Valhallans as their support guard detachment. They have so many great utility abilities that no one thinks about because all they see is Cadian or Catachan firepower buffs. If all you want is guardsmen for a screen, you'd be hard pressed to find a better regiment trait. /Guard talk
I'm curious to see how your list does, it's definitely an odd one and would be a heck of a curve ball in an event. I am especially interested in seeing how you deepstrike in essentially fifteen 60mm bases without them tripping all over one another or being blocked by LOS terrain and keeping them within 3" of an objective for Secure at any Cost.
U02dah4 wrote: 1 cp to redeploy and ressurect is usefull for objective capture sometimes its probably the best choice but its not ofton going to be important
Oh what! So you don’t need to have the same forgeworld to resurrect the kataphons? Hmm very interesting
Wulfey wrote: It is fully my intention to win best 'admech' at the LVO. So let us dispense with all notions of fairness or fluff. I have two requirements: (1) 50.1% points much be admech (2) it must be winning.
I think I am onto something here. This is the hokiest mess I can cobble together that might be able to take all comers.
Mixed ADMECH beta strike battalion
1 TPD - lucius (usually teleport relic)
1 Enginseer - graia
12(1) plasmaphrons - lucius (deepstrike)
10(2) rangers - graia
4 servitors - agripinna
10(1) infiltrators - mars (deepstrike)
2(1) dakkabots - lucius (deepstrike)
BLANGELS battalion
2 Smash captains
15(3) bolter scouts (I really need to remodel into melee but too lazy/cheap)
5(1) devastators with 1x heavy bolter and cherub (for 2d3 mortal wounds on first turn)
VALHALLA mans shoot at triangle trapped front ranked guys battalion
2 Commanders (one with Grand Strategist and Petrov's only 1 of you die to morale pistol)
60 mans, bolters on sergeants
This is as hokey and as gamey as I can think of. It leave no good targets for turn 1 alpha strikes and has ways of delivering ranged mortal wounds. It has no non-LOS firepower ... but I have smash captains to get in there and do something about the bad things. And as much as I want that new guard artillery regiment to work, all I can think abotu is how tall all those guard arty things are. Castellans can move 10 inches and shoot 48 and are a foot tall. They will see those arty tanks.
I think Catachan with the Emperor's Conclave relic is strictly better than Valhalla now. I mean, you can't really even trap Catachans; they WANT to be in CC.
If you give that relic to a Platoon Commander and get him killed, he can get a super blob up to +3 attacks. Every turn, you can just advance a new unit within 2" and Consolidate Squads directly into the fight (RAW, Advancing does not forbid you from fighting). You then can deal a terrifying amount of damage with the Fix Bayonets! order followed by the No Quarter Given! stratagem and fighting; remember, the opponent HAS to fight.
I don't think you need the Servitors though, since you will be deep striking those Kataphrons. Bolter Scouts might be better for this list if you go with Catachans. The big problem in my mind really is forming a strong gunline against something like Tyranids. It is entirely conceivable that if you do deep strike and are going first, that they have the mobility and the bodies to lock you out of the entire board.
And I think we spoke about this, but I am not sure if this is enough to take down a Castellan. Especially if they castle with Guardsmen. That is how I would protect my Knights from Smash Captains, and it's how you should expect them to protect theirs. 10 Infiltrators won't be enough to remove the screen. Nor 60 Valhallans, especially if the Catachans charge you in RF range.
U02dah4 wrote: 1 cp to redeploy and ressurect is usefull for objective capture sometimes its probably the best choice but its not ofton going to be important
This is actually a really interesting idea. Haha.
Biosplicing uses the Specialist Detachment keyword. Fresh Converts is locked to the FW.
Hmm, yeah, the advance -> consolidate squads -> fight in shooting phase trick is pretty strong. The problem I have with the catachan build is a feel like I am dumping 80 points into characters that could be 20 more bodies or 80 points more shooting.
What are you running as your current catachan detachment?
// yes this is now the astramilitarum thread -- I am building another box of gaurdsmen right this instant
You can also spend 1 CP to give the MiniPriest the Fiery Denouncer WLT or the Company Commander the Laurels of Command relic.
But I think this is the best combination of resilience (8L and average morale roll of 2.5), fighting (30x S4 attacks), and shooting (Mortars are sooo good).
Honestly, I think the whole "pure codex" restriction is more ideology than tactics. In my opinion, AdMech+Guard > Guard >> AdMech. 30x S4 attacks usually lands 10 wounds on GEQs. But with Vanguard, you're landing 12.5 wounds. For a 4+ save, you're reliably inflicting morale losses on 10+ units.
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Relic: Litanies of the Holy Synod
Heavy Support - 324 1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Total: 1996 points 14 CP (-4)
I actually have been thinking about swapping the Icarus Crawlers out for Basilisks.
If this works out well, I will need to make another 6x Kataphrons and buy 10x Infiltrators for the first time. Lol.
Yeah, I think that makes more sense than trying to force the smash captains. It would play a lot faster and instead rely on the weight of the catachans to play in the middle. I think there is something to the 12x plasmaphron trick. It isn't enough against knights ... but I think the beta strike admech list can threaten the eldar lists that could otherwise punk a dakkabot list (harlquin bikers with the d6 haywire shots).
I've been saying people need more infantry for months now though. The average number of bodies just keeps going up in tourney lists. Loyal 32 has been the floor for awhile, but these days, you probably aren't competitive without at least 50 ObSec bodies. You just need need need to be able to hold objectives, especially if you don't go second.
Been playing a handful of games with my 4 Fistelans and it's been a blast, they've been worth it every game and they're great fun. I whiffed once when they suffered a 9" charge by a Gallant, the 6D Gauntlet hurts quite a lot. I'll be facing a full Knight list at 2000 pts next Thursday, can't wait to see how my Lucius - Agripinaa list fares.
Pomguo wrote: Lucius cybernetica fistbots sound hilarious. Waiting for an excuse to run such a list.
It's fun because most of the time the opponent can't just ignore 4 Robots punching their way in their lines, and with the fight twice if you have room you can just slide 12" into everything to wreck up his shooting. Then when he finally kills them they can blow up for additional fun. Meanwhile I have 6 plasma Destroyers and 3 Onagers shooting everything that wants to flee.
Octovol wrote: Straw poll: Necromechanic WT does this interact with a TPD masterwork bionics self repair to give him D3+1 wounds back?
Necromechanic only works with abilities that "repair" units. Masterwork Bionics "regains" wounds. Same for Master of Biosplicing and, ironically, Self-repair Mechanisms.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I came across this funny idea for a Black Templar Blender Captain (AKA Blender Marshal) with the new Sword Brethren formation:
Captain w/ Jump Pack (4A)
Bolt Pistol
Chainsword (+1A) + Relic: Teeth of Terra (+D3A)
WLT: Master Swordsman (+1A, +1 hit on roll of 6)
Spell: Might of Heroes: +1T, +1S, +1A
Suffer Not the Unclean to Live (2 CP): +1A, reroll wounds
So pair the Captain with a Librarian of some sort. WS2+, reroll 1s to hit, reroll all wounds, 10 S4 attacks. Honour the Chapter for 20 attacks; with exploding to hit rolls, that comes out to a total of ~23 hits. Also rerolls failed charges and has T5 3+/4++/5+++.
You can also put him on a Bike for more durability and have them cruising around killing infantry. Basically he does to GEQs what Smash Captains do to Knights.
Saw this idea also on YouTube, it's pretty hilarious
Problems would be:
1) How to integrate a Templar detachment to our AdMech force?
2) Can BT even use Psykers or is the restriction just in the fluff?
3) Do we really need more things which can destroy GEQ?! ;P
Not sure if it's worthwhile to be honest. Mostly because we have Graia for an Abhor stratagem and some great anti-infantry shooting. But good to keep in the back of our heads.
If you would want something similar, just take our beloved BA allies with lemartes. For 4 CP you get on average 16 attacks hitting on 2 rerolling 1s and wounding everything up to t5 on +2. And he dropped to 100 pts, lol.
I know this probably belongs in YMDC but you lot will be able to answer this question I’m sure.
Cawls reroll bubble: is it before or after modifiers?
I had a situation where I was rerolling dice and a friend advised I couldn’t reroll certain dice because of -to hit. I was only able to reroll the natural fails.
Quick answer:
You can reroll any dice with Cawl, thats what makes him so great!
Long answer:
Read Cawl´s Aura combared to some one like Papa Smurf:
In the latter case it says all misses and since rerolls happen before modifiers a 3 counts as a hit for a marine, since the modifer is applied afterwards.
Cawl´s aura says in contrast: That you can reroll ANY hit rolls (not specifying that they need to be misses)
I know this probably belongs in YMDC but you lot will be able to answer this question I’m sure.
Cawls reroll bubble: is it before or after modifiers?
I had a situation where I was rerolling dice and a friend advised I couldn’t reroll certain dice because of -to hit. I was only able to reroll the natural fails.
Is that the case?
Thanks fellow techpriests
Before or after, it doesn't matter. Because you can reroll "successful" rolls. (The text of his rules do not specify failed rolls at all.)
Another fun detachment for 2019 is the Celestine Cathedral:
Bloody Rose Outrider
Celestine
Geminae
Geminae w/ Brazier
Dialogus w/ Indomitable WLT 6 Seraphim with 2x Inferno, Plasma Pistol, Chainsword
5 Seraphim with 2x Inferno, Plasma Pistol, Chainsword
5 Seraphim with 2x Inferno, Plasma Pistol, Chainsword
Essentially, it's a blob of 3++ infantry with S4 attacks and S8 pistols. They also have Deny and can use character shenanigans to bring Celestine into range.
Question: Geminae don't count for slots when battle-forged, but does that mean they can't be used to satisfy Elite slot requirements for a Vanguard detachment? Because technically, they would have to count in order to satisfy the condition of being Battle-forged. A catch 22?
I'm a new Ad Mech player with the purchase of a new shiny Battleforce. Am I crazy for wanting to pick up a bunch of Corpuscarii Electropriests? They seem great for keeping stuff out of our gunlines.
rollawaythestone wrote: I'm a new Ad Mech player with the purchase of a new shiny Battleforce. Am I crazy for wanting to pick up a bunch of Corpuscarii Electropriests? They seem great for keeping stuff out of our gunlines.
Hi, welcome to AdMech !
Corpuscarii won't really work in the role you want them to play as they are. They are easily killed and so will most likely get shot off before the enemy melee units will arrive at your lines. One way to make them survivable is to either hide them in a building like a 100 pts bunker, that will allow a unit of 10 to shoot from inside it, or deep-strike them with the Lucius' Teleportarium stratagem, so that you can safely land near your target and shoot at least one full round at max strength. If the place you play has good LoS blocking terrain they may be able to hide, though, it depends. Not of fan of them myself, Fulgurite are way better, although they suffer the same problem. Stygies' Infiltration stratagem or transport in Termite Drills is the best way to deliver them safely.
What are some of the best units we have to answer melee hordes like Ork Boyz and Genestealers, either taking them out quickly or units that can defend our gunline well enough? What about against smash captains and their equivalents?
I've heard good things about Secutarii Hoplites and I have Fulgurites that can counter charge if need be. I'm also thinking about giving my Destroyers flamers to deter chargers and put a serious dent on them if they're bold enough to risk it.
The answer to melee hordes is infilrators or dragoons. You want to make sure you position them correctly for the counter charge though, because if they get charged they will die.
Is their footprint really large enough to stop melee units from sneaking through? I play Tyranid Genestealer rush and would not be worried about sneaking past some of those guys.
rollawaythestone wrote: Is their footprint really large enough to stop melee units from sneaking through? I play Tyranid Genestealer rush and would not be worried about sneaking past some of those guys.
A regular opponent of mine plays the same tactic and let me say: he hates Dragoons xD there bases a really huge + they are perfect for killing Genestealers (lots of S8 attacks with nearly no wasted ap)
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it's not so easy for them to kill a wall of them.
rollawaythestone wrote: Fair enough. Why is someone shooting Electropriests when they have dakkabots and other more important stuff to deal with?
Because the things that shoot Dakkabots don't shoot Electropriests, so there is no opportunity cost here.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: What are some of the best units we have to answer melee hordes like Ork Boyz and Genestealers, either taking them out quickly or units that can defend our gunline well enough? What about against smash captains and their equivalents?
I've heard good things about Secutarii Hoplites and I have Fulgurites that can counter charge if need be. I'm also thinking about giving my Destroyers flamers to deter chargers and put a serious dent on them if they're bold enough to risk it.
When you say "we," are you talking AdMech? Probably Dakkabots. You just plop down a horde of Catachan and shoot them. That is their game plan too, after all; plop down a horde of Lootaz and their Grotz shield plus Boyz or GS and Flyrants and Dakkafex. Just figure out how to outshoot your opponent; we have durability on the Orks and range on the Tyranids. Same goes for Smash Captains; really, Dakkabots do well against everything because of the good profile combined with mortal wounds. Icarus Crawlers are the substitute, maybe Infiltrators.
Hoplites and Fulgurites would benefit a lot from transports. Unfortunately, we don't have nearly as many tricks as Guard or Eldar for transports.
I still like Phosphor Blasters. We get a +1 to hit that is wasted on Flamers. Also, we don't exactly want enemies to get that close to us.
rollawaythestone wrote: Is their footprint really large enough to stop melee units from sneaking through? I play Tyranid Genestealer rush and would not be worried about sneaking past some of those guys.
A regular opponent of mine plays the same tactic and let me say: he hates Dragoons xD there bases a really huge + they are perfect for killing Genestealers (lots of S8 attacks with nearly no wasted ap)
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it's not so easy for them to kill a wall of them.
Way back in the index days, I was a strong advocate for paired Dragoons as a screen in lieu of Skitarii; later on in the game, they become skirmishers that go out and take objectives. It's not too great an option now. For skirmishers, we have a ton of options that can fly or move tremendous distances. For screens, Catachans are incredibly efficient and flexible; they also have ObSec.
But yeah, Dragoons I can see doing well against Abominants and such. They would have to be mostly defensive though.
rollawaythestone wrote: Is their footprint really large enough to stop melee units from sneaking through? I play Tyranid Genestealer rush and would not be worried about sneaking past some of those guys.
A regular opponent of mine plays the same tactic and let me say: he hates Dragoons xD there bases a really huge + they are perfect for killing Genestealers (lots of S8 attacks with nearly no wasted ap)
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it's not so easy for them to kill a wall of them.
True, I have 4 of them and if you line them up horizontally they could probably cover a solid amount of ground as a screen, terrain permitting of course. Still, the 4+ save doesn't do them any favors so even 20 Genestealers can do some damage if they get a charge off first.
When you say "we," are you talking AdMech? Probably Dakkabots. You just plop down a horde of Catachan and shoot them. That is their game plan too, after all; plop down a horde of Lootaz and their Grotz shield plus Boyz or GS and Flyrants and Dakkafex. Just figure out how to outshoot your opponent; we have durability on the Orks and range on the Tyranids. Same goes for Smash Captains; really, Dakkabots do well against everything because of the good profile combined with mortal wounds. Icarus Crawlers are the substitute, maybe Infiltrators.
Hoplites and Fulgurites would benefit a lot from transports. Unfortunately, we don't have nearly as many tricks as Guard or Eldar for transports.
I still like Phosphor Blasters. We get a +1 to hit that is wasted on Flamers. Also, we don't exactly want enemies to get that close to us.
Yeah purely Ad Mech, not really interested in adding AM as an ally and the most I would do is Knights since that makes the most sense thematically and adds a lot to the army. I'm planning on running a Servitor Maniple with Ryza Plasma Destroyers since they're all purpose and can help with hordes in a pinch with 6d6 shots even though it's not the juiciest target they should be shooting at. My only issue is outshooting hordes is well and good...if you're going first. And with Orks and Tyranids having reliable ways to rocket up the board and get turn 1 charges, a melee screen that can punch back isn't a bad idea to me at all, which why I'm thinking Dragoons are good for the role and maybe Fulgurites in a Drill too as counter chargers. Just gotta put together that Drill first!
I like Phosphor Blasters well enough but as noted before, melee hordes have ways to get to our backlines and with Destroyers being really good targets to tie up in combat, I'm leaning towards the flamers more. The Plasma Culverins are supposed to be the big heavy hitters anyway and I'd feel safer taking a reliable charge deterrent over a pocket Heavy Bolter. Call it Genestealer insurance If your meta doesn't really have to worry much about assault armies then I can see taking the Phosphor Blaster over the Cognis Flamer.
In that case, your best bet are Dragoons and Infiltrators, backed by a large number of Graia Rangers. I would pair the Dragoons up for flexibility and redundancy. (You don't want them getting blown up by anti-tank.)
@ Suzuteo:
I´m an avid Stygies player so I can use them pretty good on the offensive when I play against an enemy who doesn´t need to be screened out.
@ Funktastic:
Sure a 4+ is not the world, but you got 6W on each and the real kicker is the T6 so those Stealers only will be wounding you on 5+.
How is the rest of your list looking btw?
Would have preferred an Alpha Dominus over a weird Cawl/Dominus hybrid model, but every new HQ choice is very welcome.
Enginseers get old fast, after the first two HQ models that can repair they are literally "diminishing returns - the unit" and end up doing absolutely nothing on the table. Heck, I used my second Enginseer for anti-deep strike zone extention duties because he had nothing better to do in most games.
lash92 wrote: @ Suzuteo:
I´m an avid Stygies player so I can use them pretty good on the offensive when I play against an enemy who doesn´t need to be screened out.
@ Funktastic:
Sure a 4+ is not the world, but you got 6W on each and the real kicker is the T6 so those Stealers only will be wounding you on 5+.
How is the rest of your list looking btw?
I have a couple of variants of my list but here's one with Fulgurites and Drill:
Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait (-1CP)
Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom (-1CP)
Household Choice: House Krast, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 172pts] . Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 172pts] . Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
Knight Warden [23 PL, 456pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Sanctuary, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
I also have some Dakkabots in case I wanted to trade off mobility and commit more to the gunline playstyle and I can also swap out the Warden of a Styrix or other Knight variants.
I don’t think Corpuscarii are quite as bad as folks have said. Deploy them properly and they’ll be out of range of massed anti-infantry shooting long enough for them to screen first and potentially second turn chargers, and their ability to take down irritants like those bloody Dark Eldar birds is unrivalled in a unit that cheap. Especially given they’ll do a bunch of hits even in overwatch. They especially synergize well with Graia’s Warlord trait letting them shoot in close combat. Fantastic anti-genestealer unit.
Also imo they’re one of our best options in a drill - far more reliable than Fulgurites, given their shooting will punch a hole in stuff even if the charge is failed.
After much sturm and drang, I have settled on a list that I am at least running next weekend at at least one RTT. I think this is my LVO list. My gaming group guys have been backing me up on this as plausible. It isn't like Nick's 50 priest and 3 drills and 1x6 ballistari list, but I am a soup player so I am going cross codex for as much power as I can.
MARS battalion
Cawl + Enginseer (WLT either 6+/6+ or +1 to repair and reroll in fight phase relic)
2x10 Infiltrators
3x5 rangers
3x1 Icarus Onagers
2000 points after various bolters on some models. 11CP after strategem spends. Sometimes 10CP if i put Kurov's onto the company commander.
Versus Lootas the castellan can go (ignore -1 / 2+ armor).
Versus another castellan I can heal mine.
Versus eldar .. well ... I still like a castellan over the dakkabots.
The icarus are really cheap now and are almost helverins, but repairable and more accurate.
Unlike a normal admech list, this one has 60 catachans.
And InControl mentioned me by name in a podcast as running 30 infiltrators, so whatever I bring needs at least the 20 I have.
@Wulfey
One thing I'd worry about is your lack of anti-Psychic. If you make the Rangers into Graia, you have a 75% chance to cancel out Doom, which they need to have any prayer of killing that Castellan. Given the Enginseer usually takes Necromechanic WLT and babysits the Castellan, he is also a good candidate for Graia. Obviously, Eldar can play around the Graia units, but at a minimum, it limits the geography of the board for Eldar, which makes a huge difference.
Also, do the Guardsmen have Mortars? You might want those to help pick off Drones.
Otherwise, it looks pretty good to me.
When that new Tech-Priest comes out, I might buy two boxes to get my own unit of Infiltrators. That or I kitbash some out of Skaven. (I got a box of Slavenblight Scramblers for free and was thinking of kitbashing them AdMech-style.)
Cawl is kinda wasted here honestly. Even if Icaruses are hitting on 4s a lot of the time, there’s still only 30 shots between them and so I don’t think his 100 points over rerolling 1s is cost-effective enough for my tastes. I might lean towards Stygies instead to give them that extra survivability.
Wulfey wrote: After much sturm and drang, I have settled on a list that I am at least running next weekend at at least one RTT. I think this is my LVO list. My gaming group guys have been backing me up on this as plausible. It isn't like Nick's 50 priest and 3 drills and 1x6 ballistari list, but I am a soup player so I am going cross codex for as much power as I can.
MARS battalion
Cawl + Enginseer (WLT either 6+/6+ or +1 to repair and reroll in fight phase relic)
2x10 Infiltrators
3x5 rangers
3x1 Icarus Onagers
2000 points after various bolters on some models. 11CP after strategem spends. Sometimes 10CP if i put Kurov's onto the company commander.
Versus Lootas the castellan can go (ignore -1 / 2+ armor).
Versus another castellan I can heal mine.
Versus eldar .. well ... I still like a castellan over the dakkabots.
The icarus are really cheap now and are almost helverins, but repairable and more accurate.
Unlike a normal admech list, this one has 60 catachans.
And InControl mentioned me by name in a podcast as running 30 infiltrators, so whatever I bring needs at least the 20 I have.
Pomguo wrote: Cawl is kinda wasted here honestly. Even if Icaruses are hitting on 4s a lot of the time, there’s still only 30 shots between them and so I don’t think his 100 points over rerolling 1s is cost-effective enough for my tastes. I might lean towards Stygies instead to give them that extra survivability.
A good alternative is Agripinaa Dominus with the Eye, but I can see the argument for Cawl in a pure Mars too. -2 to hit is annoying as hell to deal with. Furthermore, you can always DS the Infiltrators inside the aura radius to get rerolls ontop of the Wrath of Mars and Doctrina.
Pomguo wrote: Cawl is kinda wasted here honestly. Even if Icaruses are hitting on 4s a lot of the time, there’s still only 30 shots between them and so I don’t think his 100 points over rerolling 1s is cost-effective enough for my tastes. I might lean towards Stygies instead to give them that extra survivability.
Cawl helps with the accuracy of Icarus Arrays so much I'd day it would be worth the extra 100 points.
My read on keeping Cawl in there is that he is probably worth 50 points over the TDP to help the icarus shoot better. If I can can get him into combat, then he makes up his points easy. If it is a shooting gallery, then he was 50 wasted points that could have been some kind of anti psychic shenanigans. EDIT: or I guess more priests somehow?
If I wanted GRAIA, the best way to do it is probably to just make the Enginseer in the MARS detachment into GRAIA and give up the second canticle dice since that dogma blows.
I am skeptical on STYGIES because WRATH from the infiltrators are the big payoff of this list. If I go STYGIES, then i need to go all STYGIES and that results in a lot less powerful shooting. Nick's list relied on STYGIES and he went all in on it to make it work. I think a STYGIES list would not have the same units I have. Priests really get a lot out of -1 and don't get much out of WRATH. EDIT: this is where Nick's list works. He has a lot of priests. Even with his list ... if he could soup ... why not take a castellan over the ballistari? What makes the castellan so dominating is that if you fail to kill it in one volley, it shoots you back it full effectiveness. If you do half the wounds to the dragoon ball then half its firepower is gone.
There are two units that aren't in this list that I should mention:
Dakkabots - the castellan is just too ominpresent to make these playable. I have to basically concede if I run up against one. But I saw a castellan in like 1/4 the socal open lists and I think castellans were not hurt by CA. With the admech point drops that list up there has about 222 extra admech points and can support the castellan in ways no other list can. And they are super vulnerable to ITC 6" pile in shenanigans. While dakkabots are resistant to lootas for 1 turn, as soon as they plant feet they will be erased in the next volley because they will be making their saves on a 3+. Anything that isn't saving on a 2+ is going to get loota erased.
Dragoons - lootas and reapers have ruined dragoons. If your opponent can ignore modifiers, then these things are bait. I think Nick Nanavati is overrelying on that -1 to keep his bastilari ball up. I also dont buy the math on the lascannons. I think he is onto something with the 50 priests and the drills, but MARS infiltrators don't cost CP to do that job and WRATH make infiltrators have a unique threat profile against otherwise hard targets. EDIT: note how Nick just leaves the STYGIES drills right on the table. Those things are beef tanks that can shoot and fight.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is the Nick charity hammer info. He ran a pure admech list for 200$.
Spoiler:
Nick Nanavati (best player in the world results wise) got donated 200$ to play pure admech vs the top nid player with his best list. Tied game. VOD: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/359863961
Random notes form Nick: He wouldn't change the list after game Onagers are meh Dragoons are cute but hardcountered by meta Kataphrons, ruststalkers, etc are basically as good as missing from his book. Robots are a gimmick (not a terrible one)
This is the list
Spoiler:
THis is a heavy wallethammer list. You need 50 priests and 3 drills.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was remembering that the difference between Cawl and a Dominus is 100 points, not 50?
As for infiltrators, I don’t think I’ve played a single game where I’ve deepstriked infiltrators anywhere near cawl, but that might be a difference between our opponents haha.
I planned a list like this two FAQs ago. Then they changed infiltration. So now I have 27 Fulgurites and 3 primed Drills sitting on my "To Paint" table. Boycotted buying Forge World after that.
Comments about the match itself:
-I have the same tape measure as Nick. It's not very handy in tight spaces. =\
-Important rules mistake that they caught later: the Fulgurites can disembark immediately. They just don't want to usually.
-They're probably friends that are used to playing one another, but table manners are horrifying. There was a big cup of coffee just sitting there on the table. They're also just man-handling some models. And I know the Drills aren't supposed to have bases, but those things silently scream "I am going to roll over and snap some Skitarii's antennae off." Super funny how they mention that Drills should be based later too.
-Wall of Drills is funny. Totally the right move against Genestealers though. However, if Nick brought Robots with Guard, John would not be able to make these sorts of moves at all.
-Nick's biggest mistake was not unloading his Fulgurites sooner. It's true that they are devastating on the charge, but as soon as he saw the GS behind him, he should have moved to his priority objective, dropped the unit behind the Drill (to form a long wall), and used Acquisition At Any Cost. I chalk this up to him not knowing his stratagems well. Which is a huge problem, since AdMech is an army very reliant on them.
-Surprised he did not move his Ironstriders more, given how much he complains about not being able to move Robots. But he's playing against Nids, so it's a bit futile anyway.
Lessons: Bring Robots (or Mars Infiltrators). Bring infantry. Use table edges when castling. Don't forget about Acquisition At Any Cost.
Pomguo wrote: Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was remembering that the difference between Cawl and a Dominus is 100 points, not 50?
As for infiltrators, I don’t think I’ve played a single game where I’ve deepstriked infiltrators anywhere near cawl, but that might be a difference between our opponents haha.
Yeah I am saying he is a 100 point upgrade. So he could be 100 points of models, or he could be 100 points of aura and his melee capability over a TPD. I rate his contribution to icarus firepower at about 50-75 points. He increases their hits against ground targets by 30% over the rerolls 1s of a TPD. 30% of 330 is about 96. Another icarus (if I could get one) is 110. So his aura is adding almost another icarus in firepower over the RR1 of a TPD. If Cawl makes combat, then he is fore sure better than a TPD and will be worth the extra 100 points. If he ever provides his aura to the infiltrators, then he made his points for sure. But there can be games where I insta lose an icarus and the infiltrators are never in range and cawl never makes combat and then I would have been better off with 100 points of more ranger bodies or something.
EDIT: yeah the salt is real on those damn drills Suzeteo. I didn't trust GW enough to give them that much money for that list. The drills are still really good just as tanks at 134. They have a good mix of bolter fire and T8 and -1 to hit and bizarrely strong melee attacks. But It is absurd what they want for those drills. I still shelled full retail for my infiltrators, but I do like the models.
Ignoring the body, in your stated example here, Cawl improves the value of a Crawler against -1 to hit by 1/6 of their value. So 336/6 = 56 points...
Yeah that is pretty close to my gut guess. I was working off an assumption of 4+ RR1 as the baseline [alaitoc flyer or non-FLY ground target]. In the best target case (2+ RR1, Tau drones), Cawl isn't doing anything. I am very bullish on icarus onagers right now because they bring so many wounds to shoot at for 112 points. When they were 135 they kinda didn't have the firepower for what they cost. That 112 points makes them sooooo good from a wounds per point perspective [yeah STYGIES ones are off the charts tanky]. 10 points per wound on 2+/5++ T7 is a steal. Any time they are getting shot, great! They aren't shooting something more point dense. My thinking with Cawl here is that he helps the icarus out when it really needs it: against big negative modifiers. On a 3+ RR1s his value isn't that great over a TPD (only rerolling the 2s over the TPD). Versus a 4+ RR1s cawl starts looking good. On 5+ rerolling1s cawl is like 40% hit rate boost.
I thought they were good at 135 points because they didn't require me to feed them CPs to output damage and were quite a durable tank with a big dinner platter base to stop charges/pile-in/consolidation. So a nice rounding out of the firebase. And they fulfilled the tax for a Spearhead. At 112... wow. That is quite a steal, actually.
I actually don't think Stygies enhance the tankiness of the Crawlers that much, so I would not shy from giving it up for better damage output. Again, it's the meta. Anti-vehicle weapons that ignore that minus to hit by either getting within 12" or just have that feature built into the model are very popular right now. Merely being T7 2+/5++RR1 is actually the primary reason; you can absorb bolter rounds for days, and plasma used to be the most common S8 weapon, but they are a lot less popular due to minus to hit. Plus, most armies actually would not consider your Crawlers to be the primary threat anyway. As you said, if they are shooting it, it's always a win.
I actually don't think Stygies enhance the tankiness of the Crawlers that much, so I would not shy from giving it up for better damage output. Again, it's the meta. Anti-vehicle weapons that ignore that minus to hit by either getting within 12" or just have that feature built into the model are very popular right now. Merely being T7 2+/5++RR1 is actually the primary reason; you can absorb bolter rounds for days, and plasma used to be the most common S8 weapon, but they are a lot less popular due to minus to hit. Plus, most armies actually would not consider your Crawlers to be the primary threat anyway. As you said, if they are shooting it, it's always a win.
4+ to hit armies are still popular though, -1 to hit really screws Guard (particularly Baneblades and artillery) as well as Tau over pretty hard (good luck for them to get 5 MLs on more than one unit if they either only have a few Fireblades and Marksmen, or their Pathfinders for mass output only hit on 5+) and let's not even get started on Orks.
The other thing is that most guns shooting at Dunecrawlers will usually be the low number of shots, high damage AT variety. And those guns really feel it if they go from hitting on 3+ to hitting on 4+ (2/3 chance to hit going down to 50/50 is significant considering weapon cost). Any miss is completely negated damage after all. Throw the guaranteed cover bonus in the first two turns and (boosted) inv. saves on top and Crabs and particularly Kastelans going second (so still in Aegis mode) become downright nasty to take down. Also it's the single best defense Kataphron Destroyers will be getting if they do end up getting shot at. And then there's the Dragoons...
Remember that the great thing about all the stacked defensive buffs is that if the other player does not manage to focus fire a Dunecrawler down to 0 wounds, you'll just repair it up again with TWO repair rolls thanks to that nice strategem, especially if Arkhan's pimp stick is involved as well. This also applies to Dakkabots as well to a lesser degree, a Kastelan surviving with one or two wounds is better than having a dead Kastelan when your shooting phase rolls around.
I'm still pretty happy running mono-Stygies, even with gimped infiltration strategem (well, at least it can still be used on chickens and for doing some deployment shenigans) the FW trait is still THAT good. And most importantly it requires zero point investment or particular list builds to make it work, almost any Admech list benefits from it big time.
I've been working on a list idea! You only start the game with 9CP usable but that was enough most of the time.
The idea is that with Metallicas warlord trait you can leave combat and still shoot, the Dakkabots and Kataphron have an absolutely huge footprint and traditionally the weakness with gunlines is that if anything gets to melee you automatically lose 500pts per unit. The new stratagem lets you get a big threat range on the Incendine Combustors and makes for very deadly overwatch, after which the survivors can leave and shoot again.
I could tag the Kataphrons as Ryza as they would do 50% more damage but 9x 60mm bases would be hard to screen, and expecting Orks and GSC to be in melee rather quickly. Custodes bikes, rhino rush etc. Any dedicated melee unit will probably crush them but they'll likely have 4++ and at 3w each they can still live!
The Bunker is there to clown-car all 9 Kataphron and a Dominus inside of in case you lose turn 1. Its so far proved valuable vs heavy gunlines who have to go through it first. It can br dropped for another basic batallion though for 5 more CP and bodies, or drop some screen for a 3rd Dunecrawler.
I've got a local 2k tournament coming in the next month, I am also slowly preparing for starting in majors. I would be grateful to point out the flaws in my list.
The tournament is held in ETC style (Maelstorm/Eternal missions mix). There are a few house rules that'd be important to mention:
- forests block LoS "to the sky" and give a -2" penalty to charge if any part of any model in the unit is crossing the forest
- ground floor is blind
- everyone has a 3CP Vect-like stratagem that goes off on 4+ (you can vect this vect for vectception ;P )
- everyone has a 3CP Deny the Witch stratagem that goes off on 4+
The meta is featuring a freaking lot of Knights, with Castelan/IG as my wretched nemesis. As it is more and more prevalent, I guess I need to bring a solid counter. I don't have a Castellan (that's why there's a Crusader), and I don't have (neither I intend to have) any kind of IG in my army. One day I might break, but that's how I want to roll for now.
The core idea of the list below - DSing Kastelans and Corpuscarii with a Stygies/Crusader backline shooting. Corps task is to clear the room for Kastelans to charge in, Robots wipe whatever remains from the screen, and using fight twice protocol they jump onto another target locking it in the combat. Corps either charge in to help (if there's a risk of tarpitting Kastelans), or go to contest the objective nearby. Kastelans ultimate goal is to trap the Dominus in combat, hopefully after having his fighting abilities degraded to WS5+ with a Krast Crusader.
Graia infantry to deny the Doom with my own stratagem + the tournament's stratagem if I fail. Icarus to deal with Valkyries (almost every IG player brings at least one), Ravagers, Bikes, and so on.
Rinion wrote: I've been working on a list idea! You only start the game with 9CP usable but that was enough most of the time.
The idea is that with Metallicas warlord trait you can leave combat and still shoot, the Dakkabots and Kataphron have an absolutely huge footprint and traditionally the weakness with gunlines is that if anything gets to melee you automatically lose 500pts per unit. The new stratagem lets you get a big threat range on the Incendine Combustors and makes for very deadly overwatch, after which the survivors can leave and shoot again.
I could tag the Kataphrons as Ryza as they would do 50% more damage but 9x 60mm bases would be hard to screen, and expecting Orks and GSC to be in melee rather quickly. Custodes bikes, rhino rush etc. Any dedicated melee unit will probably crush them but they'll likely have 4++ and at 3w each they can still live!
The Bunker is there to clown-car all 9 Kataphron and a Dominus inside of in case you lose turn 1. Its so far proved valuable vs heavy gunlines who have to go through it first. It can br dropped for another basic batallion though for 5 more CP and bodies, or drop some screen for a 3rd Dunecrawler.
If your going to do this swap the bunker for a plasma oblit or bastion that way they can stay protected and fire and you get value out of it when you go 1st.
I love the AdMech bunker tactic. Brilliant with Electro Priests too, who go from "easily shot off the board immediately" to "OH GOD I FORGOT THAT WASN'T SCENERY!" as they get out within 3", move 6" and charge. Their threat bubble is amazing.
Such a shame a fortification takes a whole detachment :(
Rinion wrote: I've been working on a list idea! You only start the game with 9CP usable but that was enough most of the time.
The idea is that with Metallicas warlord trait you can leave combat and still shoot, the Dakkabots and Kataphron have an absolutely huge footprint and traditionally the weakness with gunlines is that if anything gets to melee you automatically lose 500pts per unit. The new stratagem lets you get a big threat range on the Incendine Combustors and makes for very deadly overwatch, after which the survivors can leave and shoot again.
I could tag the Kataphrons as Ryza as they would do 50% more damage but 9x 60mm bases would be hard to screen, and expecting Orks and GSC to be in melee rather quickly. Custodes bikes, rhino rush etc. Any dedicated melee unit will probably crush them but they'll likely have 4++ and at 3w each they can still live!
The Bunker is there to clown-car all 9 Kataphron and a Dominus inside of in case you lose turn 1. Its so far proved valuable vs heavy gunlines who have to go through it first. It can br dropped for another basic batallion though for 5 more CP and bodies, or drop some screen for a 3rd Dunecrawler.
Are you making use of both vigilus formations or just the robot one? Reason I ask is all you'd need to do is drop one squad of vanguard and you'd have 8 Servitors to use as respawn fodder. So not only do you get utility and potential to return a dead Kataphron, you also get 3 more bodies out of the deal that could be used to help with deepstrike denial, screen, hold objectives, or even do a bit of melee in a pinch.
Interested to see how it does. I don't physically own the vigilus book yet and don't want to be the guy who starts the formation arms race at my store or else I'd already be trying it. I also need 2-4 more robots before I can do this style of list properly. So far I own 6 destroyers and 2 kastelan, not quite enough to commit to the level of bots this list would need.
What is your plan for models that can ignore overwatch, like blood Angels? I would consider that one of the most dangerous issues to watch out for. Other than that the big fear will be Castellan knights or other large models that aren't phased by 6 Kastellan on overwatch, even in protector mode.
Rinion wrote: I've been working on a list idea! You only start the game with 9CP usable but that was enough most of the time.
The idea is that with Metallicas warlord trait you can leave combat and still shoot, the Dakkabots and Kataphron have an absolutely huge footprint and traditionally the weakness with gunlines is that if anything gets to melee you automatically lose 500pts per unit. The new stratagem lets you get a big threat range on the Incendine Combustors and makes for very deadly overwatch, after which the survivors can leave and shoot again.
I could tag the Kataphrons as Ryza as they would do 50% more damage but 9x 60mm bases would be hard to screen, and expecting Orks and GSC to be in melee rather quickly. Custodes bikes, rhino rush etc. Any dedicated melee unit will probably crush them but they'll likely have 4++ and at 3w each they can still live!
The Bunker is there to clown-car all 9 Kataphron and a Dominus inside of in case you lose turn 1. Its so far proved valuable vs heavy gunlines who have to go through it first. It can br dropped for another basic batallion though for 5 more CP and bodies, or drop some screen for a 3rd Dunecrawler.
I considered this, but only 5 Kataphrons can shoot while embarked, and you can't buff them. So they are only a container that you pop out of on turn one that your opponent can easily play around. Seems pricey for 100+ points and a detachment. Wish we could transport them in Drills...
Don't root your Dakkabots unless the trade is worthwhile. And once you do make a good trade, it's honestly not too bad if enemies make it to melee. Really, you should have something to take that melee or counter-charge anyway. I mean, everyone is scared of Shining Spears, but you really shouldn't be. Their punch comes from 6" range shooting, not charging, and if they are Ynnari, they can only Soulburst to shoot again once per turn. Finally, remember that a unit of Shining Spears is almost 400 points itself, so even if you kill 250 points worth of models with your 6x Dakkabot unit, you come out on top if they charge you because those Spears and Dakkabots will likely be stuck poking each other for the rest of the game. Things you should worry about though are flying characters, such as Daemons, Battlesuits, etc. They have lower points, much better melee capabilities, and it is relatively easy to clear a hole for them to land in. (Interlock your screens!)
dadamowsky wrote: I've got a local 2k tournament coming in the next month, I am also slowly preparing for starting in majors. I would be grateful to point out the flaws in my list.
The tournament is held in ETC style (Maelstorm/Eternal missions mix). There are a few house rules that'd be important to mention:
- forests block LoS "to the sky" and give a -2" penalty to charge if any part of any model in the unit is crossing the forest
- ground floor is blind
- everyone has a 3CP Vect-like stratagem that goes off on 4+ (you can vect this vect for vectception ;P )
- everyone has a 3CP Deny the Witch stratagem that goes off on 4+
The meta is featuring a freaking lot of Knights, with Castelan/IG as my wretched nemesis. As it is more and more prevalent, I guess I need to bring a solid counter. I don't have a Castellan (that's why there's a Crusader), and I don't have (neither I intend to have) any kind of IG in my army. One day I might break, but that's how I want to roll for now.
The core idea of the list below - DSing Kastelans and Corpuscarii with a Stygies/Crusader backline shooting. Corps task is to clear the room for Kastelans to charge in, Robots wipe whatever remains from the screen, and using fight twice protocol they jump onto another target locking it in the combat. Corps either charge in to help (if there's a risk of tarpitting Kastelans), or go to contest the objective nearby. Kastelans ultimate goal is to trap the Dominus in combat, hopefully after having his fighting abilities degraded to WS5+ with a Krast Crusader.
Graia infantry to deny the Doom with my own stratagem + the tournament's stratagem if I fail. Icarus to deal with Valkyries (almost every IG player brings at least one), Ravagers, Bikes, and so on.
10x Lucius Corpuscarii
10x Lucius Corpuscarii
Lucius Datasmith
4x Lucius Fistelans w/ flamer
SHA Krast
Crusader; RFBC; Ion Bulwark, Headman's Mark
Maybe Agripinaa with Eye instead of Stygies? Helps the Crawlers and Arquebuses mess with vehicles. (Note that the Eye can go on an Agripinaa Enginseer "spotter," not necessarily the Dominus buffing the Crawlers, which you may want to keep back.) Move Necromechanic to a mixed detachment Enginseer; both should ideally be Graia for the 1CP Abhor (2 CP cheaper than the default per your house rules).
Castellan or Styrix would be better than Crusader in any Knight-heavy meta.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, if you are going to LVO, FLG has sent me a ruling on the "as if" versus "is" debate. Here is the email chain:
Spoiler:
Captain Morgan wrote:"Has this been answered?
My own interpretation would be that “as if” is “same as” doing it in the exact phase, speaking generally."
Adam Solis wrote:"Most play it just like a normal phase. It's why shinging spears are even better now, due to soul burst"
Daniel Ruiz wrote:"I don’t think GW or us have ever ruled as such. From the tyranids faq, you can use movement phase stratagems on a unit that is being swarmlorded, so that’s some precedent that “as if x phase” allows stratagem use. "
John Weyermuller wrote:"Hello Michael. If your unit has a rule that lets you do something "as if it were" then you may use things from the phase that it counts as being."
So for our purposes, yes, you can use Plasma Specialists during Infoslave Skull. And all of the Techpriest auras work with it too.
Suzuteo wrote: I've been working on a list idea! You only start the game with 9CP usable but that was enough most of the time.
Maybe Agripinaa with Eye instead of Stygies? Helps the Crawlers and Arquebuses mess with vehicles. (Note that the Eye can go on an Agripinaa Enginseer "spotter," not necessarily the Dominus buffing the Crawlers, which you may want to keep back.) Move Necromechanic to a mixed detachment Enginseer; both should ideally be Graia for the 1CP Abhor (2 CP cheaper than the default per your house rules).
Castellan or Styrix would be better than Crusader in any Knight-heavy meta.
Well... I'd love to have a Castellan, but 2x Drills are next on my purchase list, and that stretches my wallet. So, for now, a single Questoris and up to 4 Armigers are everything I can field from LoWs.
As for the Eye - this is an idea, although I'm a little bit anxious about giving up on the -1 hit detachment wide.
From the test proxies I've been playing, Drills are quite a good unit to have. And I feel like they're opening a whole new, mobile beyond the Infiltrators, world to Admech. I was trying to convert one for kicks, but it takes quite a time that I could use to either paint or even get a paid gig. Besides Id rather have the Drill, just in case TO would dismiss a converted, nullifying my list in effect :p
Now when you mentioned the -hit reliance and the Eye, I'm not sure whether it's worth to keep stygies. I'm not infiltrating anything with this list, so a RR wound on all of those S7 might indeed prove to be beneficial. On the other hand I've seen so many Dominus Rockets (forgot the name) to miss due to -hit, and plasma to whiff, that it might help me survive. Agripinaa dogma gives me nothing - Orks will flood me with numbers anyway, knights will shrug the overwatch. It I had Kataohrons at least, to have the synergy... But this list is short on points and CPs already.
Don't get me wrong. They are quite good. But we just don't have the sort of charge bonuses for our infantry to make them reliable. We can do shooting, but 9x Carbine + 3x Plasma Caliver or 12x Hoplite, typically with Graia dogma for durability and maximum anti-Psyker annoyance, is the upper limit on the amount of damage output we can use with the Drills. For everything else, going Lucius is better.
Suzuteo wrote: Don't get me wrong. They are quite good. But we just don't have the sort of charge bonuses for our infantry to make them reliable. We can do shooting, but 9x Carbine + 3x Plasma Caliver or 12x Hoplite, typically with Graia dogma for durability and maximum anti-Psyker annoyance, is the upper limit on the amount of damage output we can use with the Drills. For everything else, going Lucius is better.
That's why I'm leaning towards dual Battalion of Lucius camping and Graia up front.
I would say yes. He improves the shooting of 3x Crawlers by almost 60 points, plus he has a better body for Heroic Intervention, and the Canticle reroll.
Suzuteo wrote: Don't get me wrong. They are quite good. But we just don't have the sort of charge bonuses for our infantry to make them reliable. We can do shooting, but 9x Carbine + 3x Plasma Caliver or 12x Hoplite, typically with Graia dogma for durability and maximum anti-Psyker annoyance, is the upper limit on the amount of damage output we can use with the Drills. For everything else, going Lucius is better.
I wondered about pairing eisenhorn with 11 fulgurites in a drill, pop terrify to ignore overwatch and have him summon his mini-daemon prince, has some nice synergy with other psyker powers as well.
Rinion wrote: I've been working on a list idea! You only start the game with 9CP usable but that was enough most of the time.
The idea is that with Metallicas warlord trait you can leave combat and still shoot, the Dakkabots and Kataphron have an absolutely huge footprint and traditionally the weakness with gunlines is that if anything gets to melee you automatically lose 500pts per unit. The new stratagem lets you get a big threat range on the Incendine Combustors and makes for very deadly overwatch, after which the survivors can leave and shoot again.
I could tag the Kataphrons as Ryza as they would do 50% more damage but 9x 60mm bases would be hard to screen, and expecting Orks and GSC to be in melee rather quickly. Custodes bikes, rhino rush etc. Any dedicated melee unit will probably crush them but they'll likely have 4++ and at 3w each they can still live!
The Bunker is there to clown-car all 9 Kataphron and a Dominus inside of in case you lose turn 1. Its so far proved valuable vs heavy gunlines who have to go through it first. It can br dropped for another basic batallion though for 5 more CP and bodies, or drop some screen for a 3rd Dunecrawler.
So I like the bunker clown car (and am not personally doing it because I don't own a bunker and prefer to run models I actually have). But if you are going to commit to the clown car, you might as well be RYZA. RYZA plasmaphrons are like 2x the damage of any other plasmaphrons with the strategem. We went over the math a few pages back. +1 to wound and +1 to damage is a seriously a 100% increase to actual damage on Imperial Knights.
Hmm admech / castellan / guard is catching on faster than I thought. Also the infiltrators are looking good. I got 20 but I don't think I need any more. I want to know how his Arquebuses did.
Wulfey wrote: Hmm admech / castellan / guard is catching on faster than I thought. Also the infiltrators are looking good. I got 20 but I don't think I need any more. I want to know how his Arquebuses did.
At 15 a pop they probably did really well. 30-45 points to keep a squad of Rangers always engaged is a stellar thing. I haven't been happier and this is what I wanted out of their 7th edition incarnation.
List seems par for the course. Guard with Mortars for screening and removing Drones, Grotz, Reapers, etc.
Surprised he went for Arquebus Rangers + Dragoons instead of Vanguard + Kataphrons though. Arquebus has good math against Eldar HQs, but Vanguard can push the range of that Abhor into their deployment, plus you have the Servitors and mixed detachment already for the Kataphrons, so why not? And Dragoons just get chewed up or outmanoeuvred in some matchups; he probably used them to screen early on and then move out later though.
Not using Guard WLT+Relic is also weird to me, though Necromechanic is definitely nice for repairing your Knight.
Anyhow, if I do incorporate a Knight down the road, I would go for a Styrix.
I've been having good luck with the arquebuses for what it's worth. Opponents absolutely hate them. Nobody is used to snipers that can actually hurt things so usually you'll see them put a volley into a character and then the opponent gets super paranoid about them. Plus they can still hunt light to mid vehicles which is nice. Two for 65pts and 3 ablative wounds feels really good, heck of a lot better than when they were 85.
I'm not entirely sure how much I'd rely on them to actually kill characters until you commit to them, I kind of feel 6 arquebuses sprinkled across your deployment in 3 min sized squads would do well. I'm painting up 3 more and plan on testing them more in games, as 2 definitely isn't enough to do much even in small games. My area has a lot of character dreadnoughts, daemon princes, and wolf Lord/bike captains so I've found them useful to soften these characters up a bit before they hit your lines, or finishing them off after they take a few wounds in the initial assault.
I had the successful games with 2x 2 TA vs Tau, Eldars and IG. Tau was fielding lots of markerlights in a form of characters. A single squad of snipers even managed to erase Ethereal in a volley, so there's some worth to take out of them. Seers and any T3 chars were melting away as well (Yvraine might have needed 2 turns though, can't recall exact values now). If I had additional 2 snipers, I'd field 6 of them.
List seems par for the course. Guard with Mortars for screening and removing Drones, Grotz, Reapers, etc.
Surprised he went for Arquebus Rangers + Dragoons instead of Vanguard + Kataphrons though. Arquebus has good math against Eldar HQs, but Vanguard can push the range of that Abhor into their deployment, plus you have the Servitors and mixed detachment already for the Kataphrons, so why not? And Dragoons just get chewed up or outmanoeuvred in some matchups; he probably used them to screen early on and then move out later though.
Not using Guard WLT+Relic is also weird to me, though Necromechanic is definitely nice for repairing your Knight.
Anyhow, if I do incorporate a Knight down the road, I would go for a Styrix.
Maybe because he would get CP starved if he also went for Kataphrons?
He starts the list with 10-11 CP (depends on if he infiltrates the dragoons or not).
- 3 CP for Raven strat
- 3 CP if he needs to rotate his shields
- 2 CP for WoM
And he is nearly out ^^
The other thing to remember is while we are rank 7 in most winning we are not on the board for most played so proportionately we are punching much higher
lash92 wrote: Maybe because he would get CP starved if he also went for Kataphrons?
He starts the list with 10-11 CP (depends on if he infiltrates the dragoons or not).
- 3 CP for Raven strat
- 3 CP if he needs to rotate his shields
- 2 CP for WoM
And he is nearly out ^^
Well, Dragoons also eat 1 CP per charge. But yeah, this list has low CP to support a Raven Castellan. I still hold that Krast Styrix is our best solo Knight. Cheaper in points, only needs to consume 1 CP per turn for the shields, has a more versatile mix of weapons (Volkite Chieorovile is almost as efficient as Volcano Lance against Knights thanks to the Krast WLT+relic), and it is much easier to keep repaired.
lash92 wrote: Maybe because he would get CP starved if he also went for Kataphrons?
He starts the list with 10-11 CP (depends on if he infiltrates the dragoons or not).
- 3 CP for Raven strat
- 3 CP if he needs to rotate his shields
- 2 CP for WoM
And he is nearly out ^^
Well, Dragoons also eat 1 CP per charge. But yeah, this list has low CP to support a Raven Castellan. I still hold that Krast Styrix is our best solo Knight. Cheaper in points, only needs to consume 1 CP per turn for the shields, has a more versatile mix of weapons (Volkite Chieorovile is almost as efficient as Volcano Lance against Knights thanks to the Krast WLT+relic), and it is much easier to keep repaired.
Can you explain how the Styrix Krast thing works? I thought that in an Aux Super heavy detachment we can't give the knight a character/WLT or relic? I read the Krast stuff again and it only works with the fight hits? not shooting or have I completely misunderstood all that? Unfortunately I've went with Taranis for my lone styrix for a tournament this weekend since I figure the extra chance to ignore a wound would help it stay alive longer but next time it will be Krast given all I've read here
lash92 wrote: Maybe because he would get CP starved if he also went for Kataphrons?
He starts the list with 10-11 CP (depends on if he infiltrates the dragoons or not).
- 3 CP for Raven strat
- 3 CP if he needs to rotate his shields
- 2 CP for WoM
And he is nearly out ^^
Well, Dragoons also eat 1 CP per charge. But yeah, this list has low CP to support a Raven Castellan. I still hold that Krast Styrix is our best solo Knight. Cheaper in points, only needs to consume 1 CP per turn for the shields, has a more versatile mix of weapons (Volkite Chieorovile is almost as efficient as Volcano Lance against Knights thanks to the Krast WLT+relic), and it is much easier to keep repaired.
Can you explain how the Styrix Krast thing works? I thought that in an Aux Super heavy detachment we can't give the knight a character/WLT or relic? I read the Krast stuff again and it only works with the fight hits? not shooting or have I completely misunderstood all that? Unfortunately I've went with Taranis for my lone styrix for a tournament this weekend since I figure the extra chance to ignore a wound would help it stay alive longer but next time it will be Krast given all I've read here
Stratagem for a warlord trait and stratagem for the relic.
Ah ok, Yep, I misunderstood that, I thought about using the strategems but then read the bits about knight lances and that clearly threw me off how it was meant to work.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 500
Lord of War - 500 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Hekaton Siege Claw, Twin Rad-cleanser, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: The Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Yeah, it's a mess. But you should never, ever make your Knight your Warlord because you can pay 1 CP to make it a character and give it one. And while you're at it, give it a relic for 1 CP.
Suzuteo wrote:Yeah, it's a mess. But you should never, ever make your Knight your Warlord because you can pay 1 CP to make it a character and give it one. And while you're at it, give it a relic for 1 CP.
Well, unless you really want to give a Cerastus Knight (or Omnissiah forbid, an Armiger) a relic or warlord trait without having another Knight as warlord, as those stratagems only work for Dominus and Questoris class knights. So e.g. if you want an Atrapos with the 2+ armour save relic, it either has to be your warlord or another Knight has to be your warlord.
lash92 wrote:Dont get household traditions in a Super Heavy aux, right?
Yeah, only Super Heavy detachments get household traditions.
So I like the bunker clown car (and am not personally doing it because I don't own a bunker and prefer to run models I actually have). But if you are going to commit to the clown car, you might as well be RYZA. RYZA plasmaphrons are like 2x the damage of any other plasmaphrons with the strategem. We went over the math a few pages back. +1 to wound and +1 to damage is a seriously a 100% increase to actual damage on Imperial Knights.
yeah, making the Servitor Maniple a mix of Ryza and Graia infantry with Agripinaa servitors is probably the best, the damage output of Ryza is crazy, but worried about melee armies getting them stuck never shooting again! Playing some games with it tonight,
Another option is 3x Double Lascannon Ironstriders instead of the two dunecrawlers, much squishier but more damage output on average, and can hit on 1+ for the unit of 3. Or Icarus arrays. Dunecrawlers are tough and huge though, can sacrifice them in front/side of the Ryza Kataphrons to block
lash92 wrote:Dont get household traditions in a Super Heavy aux, right?
Yeah, only Super Heavy detachments get household traditions.
I got that wrong too then as well haha guess I'm really running my Styrix pretty much just as is then, I'm taking 2 Stygies 8 battalions so I'll have plenty of CP to keep the rotate ion shields and maybe Knight of the Cog every turn. Something to remember for next time.
Rinion wrote: yeah, making the Servitor Maniple a mix of Ryza and Graia infantry with Agripinaa servitors is probably the best, the damage output of Ryza is crazy, but worried about melee armies getting them stuck never shooting again! Playing some games with it tonight,
Another option is 3x Double Lascannon Ironstriders instead of the two dunecrawlers, much squishier but more damage output on average, and can hit on 1+ for the unit of 3. Or Icarus arrays. Dunecrawlers are tough and huge though, can sacrifice them in front/side of the Ryza Kataphrons to block
Ryzaphrons are great. Only headache is keeping them alive against certain armies. Magic bunker ITC rules are helpful though.
I actually prefer Graia Servitors, but I guess Agripinaa is alright too.
Before CA 2018, they were comparable. Now, definitely take Icarus Crawlers. They can shoot 2+ without penalty and without stratagem, got a great body and base, and also have the added benefit of being able to split fire.
lash92 wrote:Dont get household traditions in a Super Heavy aux, right?
Yeah, only Super Heavy detachments get household traditions.
I got that wrong too then as well haha guess I'm really running my Styrix pretty much just as is then, I'm taking 2 Stygies 8 battalions so I'll have plenty of CP to keep the rotate ion shields and maybe Knight of the Cog every turn. Something to remember for next time.
Yeah, the Tradition is superfluous for Krast.
Why two Stygies? Why not mix the second detachment to get access to Graia and Mars stratagems (especially Infiltrators)? Maybe even Ryzaphrons? (The reason why you would use Styrix over Castellan is that unlike Guard, you have some great but CP-hungry shooting options. This means your Knight is a complementary threat rather than something your army is defending at all costs.)
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 500
Lord of War - 500 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Hekaton Siege Claw, Twin Rad-cleanser, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: The Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1996 points 14 CP (-5)
More I look at it, the more I appreciate it. The Dragoons actually make a good wall with the Knight as they move down the field together. Mask gives them bonuses regardless of Forge World. Still vulnerable though. Not sure if it's the best option. Haha.
Wulfey wrote: After much sturm and drang, I have settled on a list that I am at least running next weekend at at least one RTT. I think this is my LVO list. My gaming group guys have been backing me up on this as plausible. It isn't like Nick's 50 priest and 3 drills and 1x6 ballistari list, but I am a soup player so I am going cross codex for as much power as I can.
MARS battalion
Cawl + Enginseer (WLT either 6+/6+ or +1 to repair and reroll in fight phase relic)
2x10 Infiltrators
3x5 rangers
3x1 Icarus Onagers
2000 points after various bolters on some models. 11CP after strategem spends. Sometimes 10CP if i put Kurov's onto the company commander.
Versus Lootas the castellan can go (ignore -1 / 2+ armor).
Versus another castellan I can heal mine.
Versus eldar .. well ... I still like a castellan over the dakkabots.
The icarus are really cheap now and are almost helverins, but repairable and more accurate.
Unlike a normal admech list, this one has 60 catachans.
And InControl mentioned me by name in a podcast as running 30 infiltrators, so whatever I bring needs at least the 20 I have.
If you ca. Squeeze in a techpriest I to the ig detachment. He has the forgeworld keyword so you can gratis him for psychic defense.
It's more just working with what I have, I really like the -1 to hit and I am building more destroyers for the special detachment. At present I don't have enough of what you've suggested to run them optimally. My planned list is, its a 1750pt tournament so there is a bit of squeezing in maybe less than usual optimal number of models for say the dragoons etc:
I prefer to run just admech and don't have any guard but do plan to get some more enginseers as well to make even cheaper battalions plus using the strats for the krast stuff. Mixed forge world does seem like a winner.
It seems like after Chapter Approved, many of you are preferring multiple Icarus Crawlers to Neutron Lasers. I have a second Crawler kit I am building now, and wondering whether I should go 2 Icarus or 1 Icarus and 1 Neutron laser. Thoughts?
rollawaythestone wrote: It seems like after Chapter Approved, many of you are preferring multiple Icarus Crawlers to Neutron Lasers. I have a second Crawler kit I am building now, and wondering whether I should go 2 Icarus or 1 Icarus and 1 Neutron laser. Thoughts?
The Neutron Laser will tear through anything that doesn't have an invulnerable save. Few shots, but very powerful. The Icarus is more generalist: lots of medium damage shots, less bothered by invulnerable saves due to the average AP-2. The fact that it has bonuses against <Fly> makes it very popular in a T'au/Aeldari/Drukhari meta where the guns' profiles are tailored to counter them. I'd say it depends on your meta.
People overlook the humble Eradication Beamer: 100 pts gets you an Onager who can deal with any target reasonably, and turns into a lighter Neutron Laser at short range. I'm playing an Icarus, a Laser and a Beamer together in my 2000 pts list and they've yet to get all destroyed at the end of the game. They're quite resilient, can be repaired fairly easily, and pack a good variety of weapon profiles for all situations.
rollawaythestone wrote: It seems like after Chapter Approved, many of you are preferring multiple Icarus Crawlers to Neutron Lasers. I have a second Crawler kit I am building now, and wondering whether I should go 2 Icarus or 1 Icarus and 1 Neutron laser. Thoughts?
I used to run two neturon plus a icarus but recently I've been facing more armies with more infantry and the neturon laser is really wasted when you only have that to shoot at so I figured I'll just run the ones with 10 shots and usually something they make sense shooting at.
rollawaythestone wrote: It seems like after Chapter Approved, many of you are preferring multiple Icarus Crawlers to Neutron Lasers. I have a second Crawler kit I am building now, and wondering whether I should go 2 Icarus or 1 Icarus and 1 Neutron laser. Thoughts?
The Neutron Laser will tear through anything that doesn't have an invulnerable save. Few shots, but very powerful. The Icarus is more generalist: lots of medium damage shots, less bothered by invulnerable saves due to the average AP-2. The fact that it has bonuses against <Fly> makes it very popular in a T'au/Aeldari/Drukhari meta where the guns' profiles are tailored to counter them. I'd say it depends on your meta.
People overlook the humble Eradication Beamer: 100 pts gets you an Onager who can deal with any target reasonably, and turns into a lighter Neutron Laser at short range. I'm playing an Icarus, a Laser and a Beamer together in my 2000 pts list and they've yet to get all destroyed at the end of the game. They're quite resilient, can be repaired fairly easily, and pack a good variety of weapon profiles for all situations.
Spot on with the Neutron, but I kind of have to disagree with the Beamer. You have D6 shots right? So basically 3.5 on average. That's not good for killing some infantry the way like the Icarus loadout can do.
Regarding the original question. I wouldn't go for 1 Neutron. If I were to run neutrons I would go for 2-3 just because, they are so swingy, so you can mitigate it. But atm yeah go for an Icarus.(if you have other ways of handling handling high toughness targets!)
Hulksmash wrote: If you ca. Squeeze in a techpriest I to the ig detachment. He has the forgeworld keyword so you can gratis him for psychic defense.
One thing to note is that AdMech+Knights is strong because of Necromechanic, which you cannot get in a Guard detachment. With Tech-Adept stratagem, you are healing a Knight for 4 wounds per turn.
Hulksmash wrote: If you ca. Squeeze in a techpriest I to the ig detachment. He has the forgeworld keyword so you can gratis him for psychic defense.
One thing to note is that AdMech+Knights is strong because of Necromechanic, which you cannot get in a Guard detachment. With Tech-Adept stratagem, you are healing a Knight for 4 wounds per turn.
I was talking about an extra techpriest not shifting his current one. It was a way to get some psychic defense while keeping everything thing 99% the same
Yeah you want netrons for stuff like leman Russe's or space marine vehicles. Anything with a big chunk of wounds and a 3+ save. Ironically with protector doctrina I find them better at killing enemy fliers like stormravens than Icarus crawlers. They really hate invulns. The moment you meet those all the AP in the world is pretty useless. Meanwhile Icarus has opposite problem, it really struggles with armor but loses little effectiveness against invulns. Which is my one complaint with Icarus, it feels really useless against marines for the most part.
I love using neutron, don't get me wrong. For pure admech they're a very solid AT option. Its just that they're very similar in role to Armiger Warglaives, something many admech players have in abundance. Armigers are fast, have just as much AP, can fight in close combat, and can be tougher at times. And unlike icarus/hellverin comparison, Warglaives hit just as much as Neutrons. I've found that using a mix of Warglaives and Icarus Onager really hits the best of both worlds. Warglaives are stupid fast and easily close to melta 2d6 range, while simultaneously taking heat off the Onagers and the rest of your army.
If rule of 3 wasn't around, I'd just run a few of both Onager weapons and be happy. But when you can only take 3 I find myself needing the utility the Icarus array provides far more than the punch the neutrons give. Neutrons are easy to find similar solutions for from knights or guard, meanwhile the Icarus array is pretty unique. If I was running pure admech without knights though, I'd run way more neutrons. At that point they're really our only option aside from ironstriders that'll die way too fast or punching said target to death. Yes we have Kataphrons too but they require lots of CP and really can only be buffed one unit at a time. Onagers on the other hand are cheap, consistent shooting with no CP expenditure, something admech really needs when most of our units rely on gimmicks to hit at best efficiency.
I'm going to try taking my Onagers out of the list and instead taking a squad of 6 breachers with heavy arc rifles. I think with Cawl re-rolls they'll be more effective against big things with invuln saves and about the same against other stuff.
Suzuteo wrote: Don't get me wrong. They are quite good. But we just don't have the sort of charge bonuses for our infantry to make them reliable. We can do shooting, but 9x Carbine + 3x Plasma Caliver or 12x Hoplite, typically with Graia dogma for durability and maximum anti-Psyker annoyance, is the upper limit on the amount of damage output we can use with the Drills. For everything else, going Lucius is better.
How did you get 3 plasmas and 9 carbines in one squad when the max squad size is 10? Or if they’re two squads, wouldn’t 4 plasmas and 8 carbines be more firepower in the drill?
Also 12 hoplites are ok but their shooting is on the weaker end if you’re not gonna face vehicles. With so few shots I see them more as screens that can fight back ok or potentially drop some mortal wounds on whatever wipes them out.
Wouldn’t 12 Corpuscarii (or 11 with a dominus) be the most firepower we could put in a drill?
Suzuteo wrote: Don't get me wrong. They are quite good. But we just don't have the sort of charge bonuses for our infantry to make them reliable. We can do shooting, but 9x Carbine + 3x Plasma Caliver or 12x Hoplite, typically with Graia dogma for durability and maximum anti-Psyker annoyance, is the upper limit on the amount of damage output we can use with the Drills. For everything else, going Lucius is better.
How did you get 3 plasmas and 9 carbines in one squad when the max squad size is 10? Or if they’re two squads, wouldn’t 4 plasmas and 8 carbines be more firepower in the drill?
Also 12 hoplites are ok but their shooting is on the weaker end if you’re not gonna face vehicles. With so few shots I see them more as screens that can fight back ok or potentially drop some mortal wounds on whatever wipes them out.
Wouldn’t 12 Corpuscarii (or 11 with a dominus) be the most firepower we could put in a drill?
Corpuscarii have only 5++ and 5+++, while Hoplites rock 4+/5++ and 4++ against melee - can't say I play Hoplites too much, but they seem to be more survivable. If I payed extra 134pts for transport I'd want to transport something more survivable into the fray. Unless I'd be dropping 12 Corpuscarii in Mars, for WoM, but 10 Infiltrators are better and cheaper for that task. Otherwise, a bomb of 20 Corpuscarii in Lucius seems to be a better idea of utilising them IMO
20 Lucius is a strong bomb, but 11 Agripinaa + Dominus in a drill is also pretty strong (and means you aren’t stuck with Lucius).
As for Hoplites, their save is better but they don’t get a FNP. Pretty close in survivability imo - but worlds apart in guaranteed damage output (ie the firepower they put out on the turn they arrive). 12 shots at S6 AP-1 and D3dmg on vehicles only (otherwise 1dmg) VS 33 shots rerolling 1s and exploding on 6s at S5 AP0 1dmg... against any target surely the priests are doing more by a long way? Plus their overwatch is fantastic even without Agripinaa, which makes up for the 1 less invuln in melee (as does the FNP).
Besides, if survivability is your concern you could make them Graia for a third 6+ roll after the two 5+ rolls, which would also make them deepstriking psychic deniers on a 4+ - unlike Secutarii who can’t get a forgeworld keyword.
dadamowsky wrote: Corpuscarii have only 5++ and 5+++, while Hoplites rock 4+/5++ and 4++ against melee - can't say I play Hoplites too much, but they seem to be more survivable.
Against 1 damage weapons a 5+ invulnerable save combined with a 5+ 'feel no pain' save is statistically better than a single 4+ save though (44.4% average failure rate vs 50% average failure rate).
The FNP save just get progressively worse on weapons that deal multiple damage per unsaved wound because you have to roll 5+ for each damage dealt to not be killed (59.2% average failure rate vs damage 2 weapons for example).
Pomguo wrote: How did you get 3 plasmas and 9 carbines in one squad when the max squad size is 10? Or if they’re two squads, wouldn’t 4 plasmas and 8 carbines be more firepower in the drill?
Also 12 hoplites are ok but their shooting is on the weaker end if you’re not gonna face vehicles. With so few shots I see them more as screens that can fight back ok or potentially drop some mortal wounds on whatever wipes them out.
Wouldn’t 12 Corpuscarii (or 11 with a dominus) be the most firepower we could put in a drill?
Typo. You're right. 8x Carbine and 4x Plasma. And my point is that Priests would be better off coming down as one big Lucius unit. It's only the MSUs and the units that need to make it into melee that benefit from the Drill.
But then dedicated melee in a drill is a bad gamble, since their odds are so low. That’s why imo Corpuscarii are the best thing (other than Ryza plasma vanguard possibly) to put in a drill - they have the same mortal wounds on a charge as Fulgurites, and also have taser hits in close combat for a fair amount of hurt, but they guarantee a truckload of hits on arrival even if they fail that charge. They’re betyer shooters than almost anyone else you could put in a drill, and a solid melee option too if you luck out and make the charge. Best of both worlds - same way Infiltrators make a better bomb than Ruststalkers.
As for Lucius, yeah it’s a great bomb, but forces you into a sub-optimal FW (elevtroprietss care not between AP0 or AP-1) and it’s not like a drill isn’t going to be handy on the deepstrike too - not to mention you save a CP! People twist their armies or add in unwanted HQs just for 1CP, so I’m not that quick to spend one if there’s a solid alternative .
ultimentra wrote: I'm going to try taking my Onagers out of the list and instead taking a squad of 6 breachers with heavy arc rifles. I think with Cawl re-rolls they'll be more effective against big things with invuln saves and about the same against other stuff.
I'm curious to see how that does, I have 6 breachers that I would like to use, maybe in the special detachment with 6 destroyers, the idea of a couple of regenerating squads of kataphron slowly moving around blasting things sounds cool if probably not the most competitive
Liking all the Corpuscarii discussion - I'm one of the few that actually likes their model, and would love to make them work. Their firepower just seems so useful in the new melee horde meta.
dadamowsky wrote: Corpuscarii have only 5++ and 5+++, while Hoplites rock 4+/5++ and 4++ against melee - can't say I play Hoplites too much, but they seem to be more survivable.
Against 1 damage weapons a 5+ invulnerable save combined with a 5+ 'feel no pain' save is statistically better than a single 4+ save though (44.4% average failure rate vs 50% average failure rate).
The FNP save just get progressively worse on weapons that deal multiple damage per unsaved wound because you have to roll 5+ for each damage dealt to not be killed (59.2% average failure rate vs damage 2 weapons for example).
Also factor in that aech have 2-3 turns in cover which hoplites benefit from and Corpuscarii dont
Very true, not unless it is cover that gives +2 to saves. On the flip-side, that also means that the Corpuscarii don't care about any armour penetration on ranged weapons.
Exactly what I meant mentioning armor save. Hoplites can easily sit on 3+ with canticles or terrain setup, Corpuscarii are tied to expensive and situational Acquisition to improve their save.
As for the Drill issue - I don't think taking the 134 transport is the most efficient pts spending. Corpuscarii are nothing but very efficient DS screen cleaners for someone else to capitalise. Fulgurites on the other hand are the clear winners for the seat, with all their d3 mortal wounds, and 3++, to get support with transportation. They will most likely pay off their, and the Drill, costs.
I'm not buying the Lucius dogma argument either. It's clearly meh, but that's what mixed detachments are for . Lucius Corpuscarii, with Graia Skitarii, with Stygues Drill and Fulgurites (for the optional infiltration shenanigans) - and you have the best of each world noy caring about the crappy dogmas at all.
Pomguo wrote: But then dedicated melee in a drill is a bad gamble, since their odds are so low. That’s why imo Corpuscarii are the best thing (other than Ryza plasma vanguard possibly) to put in a drill - they have the same mortal wounds on a charge as Fulgurites, and also have taser hits in close combat for a fair amount of hurt, but they guarantee a truckload of hits on arrival even if they fail that charge. They’re betyer shooters than almost anyone else you could put in a drill, and a solid melee option too if you luck out and make the charge. Best of both worlds - same way Infiltrators make a better bomb than Ruststalkers.
As for Lucius, yeah it’s a great bomb, but forces you into a sub-optimal FW (elevtroprietss care not between AP0 or AP-1) and it’s not like a drill isn’t going to be handy on the deepstrike too - not to mention you save a CP! People twist their armies or add in unwanted HQs just for 1CP, so I’m not that quick to spend one if there’s a solid alternative .
Well, no, the idea is to deep strike in on the transport, disembark the next turn, move, charge. Both Priests are pretty good, actually. But again, it's about opportunity cost. Mars Infiltrators are better that Lucius Corpuscarii IMO, with their built-in DS and access to Wrath of Mars. Catachans make a better anti-horde melee screen. If you want an alpha strike, bring Death Company and Lemartes.
I doubt anybody would have a pure Lucius detachment.
Pomguo wrote: But then if you don’t use a pure Lucius detachment then you lose all FW traits, right? I’m vaguely averse to giving up those buffs.
As for disembarking the next turn, didn’t realise that was actually an option. Misread the text and thought they had to come out with the drill.
Are the buffs coming from Lucius, Graia or Ryza even worth bothering though? I doubt it quite frankly, not in the majority of cases at least. Even Stygies dogma is passable if you take it on the Drill and the Fulgurites/Hoplites (as you want these to be closer than 12"). If you really want dogmas, you can always create a second mixed detachment for utility only.
Mars is meh without cawl and ryza is negligable in most builds
Graia will make your 1w models 16% more survivable essential no but on mass it makes a noticable difference
Stygies boosts anything that gonna hang at the back robots ballistarii dunecrawlers
Agripinaa and lucius can be really usefull or not at all it depends on your opponents list
Your generally better of with them if you can add them.
I've tried running Graia Skitarii. It was promising at first, but the amount of Punishers everywhere is simply too... punishing? The Punishers puns (hattrick!), always wanted to do that
Anyway, if I understand Graia correctly, you resolve the Refusal to Yield immediately when the model is slain, so after each "attack". Meaning, that 14 unsaved shots on 10 model squad demands 14 successful consecutive roll of 6 to made that squad survive. It is not going to happen. And the straightforward FnP rule would actually be more useful to the multiwound models.
From all of our dogmas I find Mars (if Cawl is taken) and Stygies to be worthwhile. Metalica... maybe, but it buffs primarily our Skitarii and they die way to fast as we already know. Maybe Cybernetica Kastelans will be playable in Metalica, idk. Rest of our dogmas are passable. And with the similarly passable WLTs and relics the only reason to ever consider a FW to pick IMO are the stratagems.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've found Graia good for my 10 man Vanguard and then Stygies for Rangers. Dual Battalion seems to be enough CP for our army I feel.
Depends on what are you running. I find 13 CPs to be burnt by the end of turn 2 if I am not careful and haven't been planning the expenditure beforehand
Yes im running brigade+battalion and still feel short on CP.
14 unsaved shots would only require 14 6's if your aim was to not lose a model.
As to multi W yes and no 1 roll negates the attack reguardless of damage so a 6 dam las cannon shot can be negated by 1 role but it wont trigger unless the model dies
U02dah4 wrote: Yes im running brigade+battalion and still feel short on CP.
14 unsaved shots would only require 14 6's if your aim was to not lose a model.
As to multi W yes and no 1 roll negates the attack reguardless of damage so a 6 dam las cannon shot can be negated by 1 role but it wont trigger unless the model dies
Even if that was 5 consecutive 6s to save 2-3 models, to scale the things into more down-to-earth proportion, it's not very likely to happen. My nose tell me Onager would rather appreciate 16% chance to negate each wound received, instead of 16% chance to negate being slain (and operate on the bottom bracket). Maybe in a really big horde of the Skitarii Graia could make the difference, or numerous big blobs of Electro-Priests as Graia can stack with their FnP. If Graia proced after all attacks were resolved (or even better, in the Necron style - at the end of the phase/round), that would be a completely different story and a very useful dogma. But otherwise... meh. It's a stratagem choice for me and nothing else.
There are plenty of examples where a 5 man squad takes two unsaved and only loses 1 as a result net across the game it adds up but if you overkill to a certain point it will still die.
Yes onagers and ballistarii benefit more from stgyies because they are at always at the back
Priests vanguard infiltrators tend to not benefit in turn due to being too close.
So yes it is a question of army comp.
A skilled oponent however will ignore your onagers untill they are within 12"
I think the worthwhile pure FWs are Stygies and Graia. The first is generally useful except against some key matchups. The second is great for infantry. The save roll applies to the wound itself, by the way, not each point of damage. Combined with Shroudpsalm, it makes for tough infantry, especially when you combine with Acquisition stratagem.
All the FWs are good for mixed detachments except Metallica. But Mars, Ryza, and Agripinaa are especially good. It's all about stratagems here. I like Mars Infiltrators, Ryza Plasmaphrons, and b Agripinaa Icarus Crawlers (especially when paired with Knights because bikes are the Knights' bane.).
Yeah as a guy who runs pure Metallica you're really only running it for vanguard, maybe the electropriests, and the warlord trait. Strategem and relic are pretty bad, and due to brilliance by the author 90% of our weapons and gear don't even interact with it. Perhaps the Cybernetica cohort strategem will give us a legitimate competitive reason to be run with Kastelan bots but I doubt it. I don't see it crushing tournaments but a big deathball of 6 charging up the field in aegis mode and then standing their ground in the midfield will probably be fine for casual games. That said even if they do prove to be very good, you now have a whopping 3 units that gain any real use out of Metalica. Compared to the abilities other pure or even mixed forces provide I'm not sure it's worth it. I'm going to test ideas for kastelan and Destroyers heavy lists that involves pushing up the board, but what it'll gain in mobility probably won't quite make up for the raw firepower Ryza gives or the durability something like agripinna can do. By the time you consider both formations, strafing run, elimination volley, and Noospheric Mindlock, you're talking 7cp to get one good volley from the bots and the destroyers. Itll be a heck of a punch, but if it whiffs most of your cp is gone and it encourages big chunky deathstars that are easy to get sight on and kill. The only other trick we then provide over other FW is falling back and shooting, which admittedly will be very important if you plan on aggressively pushing up the center. Problem is you need to survive the assault so you can fall back. And if for whatever reason formations aren't allowed, congrats, there's no reason to run them as Metallica anymore.
I run Metallica purely because my army is painted that way and if I want to run competitive I already have a ton of guard and knights. I enjoy the challenge and its really helped me think outside the box with Admech, but I'll be the first to tell you it's a really niche trait. If GW would fix our trait to also affect heavy weapons it'd be an awesome, you could have a far more mobile Admech army, but until that day it's not very good. Every list I make feels like it does well in spite of my trait, not because of it.
Off topic:
If I increase the Strength for example for servitors via canticles.
Does the x2 strength from the servoarm count afterwards or before? so has a a strengh value of 7 or 8?
U02dah4 wrote: I would recommend 3x1 to fill out a brigade.
The 4-6 is great if your going strat them but their are better things to spend CP on
´
I feel like tripple Batallion for my soup is more worth it then mechanicus brigade, especially since I want to keep it mono forgeworld.
Also 1 CP is fine with me.
U02dah4 wrote: I would recommend 3x1 to fill out a brigade.
The 4-6 is great if your going strat them but their are better things to spend CP on
True. If you want to run a Stygies Brigade or something, 3x1 Ballistarii is a good choice. We actually have a very cheap Brigade.
0XFallen wrote: Off topic:
If I increase the Strength for example for servitors via canticles.
Does the x2 strength from the servoarm count afterwards or before? so has a a strengh value of 7 or 8?
Keep in mind that the weapons that modify Strength do not have their own Strength at all. So it has to be S8. There is literally no way to make it S7.
Just coming back to the path of the Omnissiah after several years in the wilderness. Here is my first attempt at a list - any feedback greatly appreciated
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus)
Forge World: Stygies VIII
HQ Tech-Priest Dominus - Monitor Malevolus, Raiment of the Technomartyr
Tech-Priest Enginseer
Troops
5x5 Rangers - 3xTransuranic Arquebus
Fast Attack
4x Sydonian Dragoon -Phosphor Serpenta, Taser Lance
Heavy Support
3x Onager Dunecrawler - 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber, 1x Icarus Array, 2x Neutron Laser
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus)
Forge World: Mars
Dedicated Transport
Terrax-Pattern Termite Assault Drill
Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - FW Adeptus Astartes)
Selections: Black Templars
HQ Captain on Bike - Storm shield, Thunder hammer, Twin boltgun
Vigilus/Sword Brethren Warlord Trait
Fast Attack
3x Tarantula Sentry Gun - Twin heavy bolter
_____________________________
Templars Smash Captain for budget (CP-wise) killyness and Graia-type denies.
Stygies to chill in the back and fire off Onager/Arquebus shots on re-roll 1s; Dragoons to charge up the middle or be a good distratction; 2x other Ranger squads to grab objectives and fill up space.
Mars deepstriking for re-roll 1s plasma and Wrath of Mars on the Infiltrators (one Vanguard squad as front line defense for the mini-castle)
U02dah4 wrote: I would recommend 3x1 to fill out a brigade.
The 4-6 is great if your going strat them but their are better things to spend CP on
´
I feel like tripple Batallion for my soup is more worth it then mechanicus brigade, especially since I want to keep it mono forgeworld.
Also 1 CP is fine with me.
Im not a fan of 400+pts of HQ assuming your not multifactioning
Automatically Appended Next Post: As ro the list dont taser goad the vanguard its not worth it and you could do with more arquebuses if you want consistancy
TheMortician wrote: Just coming back to the path of the Omnissiah after several years in the wilderness. Here is my first attempt at a list - any feedback greatly appreciated
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus)
Forge World: Stygies VIII
HQ Tech-Priest Dominus - Monitor Malevolus, Raiment of the Technomartyr
Tech-Priest Enginseer
Troops
5x5 Rangers - 3xTransuranic Arquebus
Fast Attack
4x Sydonian Dragoon -Phosphor Serpenta, Taser Lance
Heavy Support
3x Onager Dunecrawler - 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber, 1x Icarus Array, 2x Neutron Laser
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus)
Forge World: Mars
Dedicated Transport
Terrax-Pattern Termite Assault Drill
Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - FW Adeptus Astartes)
Selections: Black Templars
HQ Captain on Bike - Storm shield, Thunder hammer, Twin boltgun
Vigilus/Sword Brethren Warlord Trait
Fast Attack
3x Tarantula Sentry Gun - Twin heavy bolter
_____________________________
Templars Smash Captain for budget (CP-wise) killyness and Graia-type denies.
Stygies to chill in the back and fire off Onager/Arquebus shots on re-roll 1s; Dragoons to charge up the middle or be a good distratction; 2x other Ranger squads to grab objectives and fill up space.
Mars deepstriking for re-roll 1s plasma and Wrath of Mars on the Infiltrators (one Vanguard squad as front line defense for the mini-castle)
Thanks in advance!
Why not do a Blender Captain?
Sword Brethren formation
Captain w/ Jump Pack (4A) (or Bike)
Bolt Pistol
Chainsword (+1A) + Relic: Teeth of Terra (+D3A)
WLT: Master Swordsman (+1A, +1 hit on roll of 6)
Suffer Not the Unclean to Live (2 CP): +1A, reroll wounds
Honour the Chapter (3 CP): Fight again
Otherwise, BA Smash Captains are still better because of the ignore OW and the consistency that Lemartes offers.
You might want some anti-Psyker defense. Is that Mars dogma really that valuable? If not, how about making some of those units Graia for the stratagem access?
I was thinking of using a single knight errant with chainsword and thermal cannon for some anti tank in a super heavy aux. detachment.
Though I read that they dont get household rules if they arent at least 3 knights, is that true? can I make a single knight worth it?
If yes how?
0XFallen wrote: I was thinking of using a single knight errant with chainsword and thermal cannon for some anti tank in a super heavy aux. detachment.
Though I read that they dont get household rules if they arent at least 3 knights, is that true? can I make a single knight worth it?
If yes how?
If you take a single knight you lose the household trait but keep relics, strategems, and potentially wlt. If you're looking to ally knights but keep the household trait that usually means taking 2 armigers to fill out a super heavy detachment, or doing something like triple gallant.
In the grand scheme of things, if you're allying in knights it's probably not for the household trait so much as the other abilities.
If you want to run a single knight you either do it as a freeblade or pick a knight where the strategems, relics, and abilities are very powerful. The Raven Castellan is a good example, everyone runs it for order of companions. They don't really care if it can advance and shoot so much as they care about rerolling all the 1's.
0XFallen wrote: I was thinking of using a single knight errant with chainsword and thermal cannon for some anti tank in a super heavy aux. detachment.
Though I read that they dont get household rules if they arent at least 3 knights, is that true? can I make a single knight worth it?
If yes how?
A Krast Styrix is basically an Errant, but better in virtually every way because the Ion Bulwark is built-in and its gun has superior range, consistency, and power. The secondaries are also very strong.
TheMortician wrote: Just coming back to the path of the Omnissiah after several years in the wilderness. Here is my first attempt at a list - any feedback greatly appreciated
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus)
Forge World: Stygies VIII
HQ Tech-Priest Dominus - Monitor Malevolus, Raiment of the Technomartyr
Tech-Priest Enginseer
Troops
5x5 Rangers - 3xTransuranic Arquebus
Fast Attack
4x Sydonian Dragoon -Phosphor Serpenta, Taser Lance
Heavy Support
3x Onager Dunecrawler - 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber, 1x Icarus Array, 2x Neutron Laser
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus)
Forge World: Mars
Dedicated Transport
Terrax-Pattern Termite Assault Drill
Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - FW Adeptus Astartes)
Selections: Black Templars
HQ Captain on Bike - Storm shield, Thunder hammer, Twin boltgun
Vigilus/Sword Brethren Warlord Trait
Fast Attack
3x Tarantula Sentry Gun - Twin heavy bolter
_____________________________
Templars Smash Captain for budget (CP-wise) killyness and Graia-type denies.
Stygies to chill in the back and fire off Onager/Arquebus shots on re-roll 1s; Dragoons to charge up the middle or be a good distratction; 2x other Ranger squads to grab objectives and fill up space.
Mars deepstriking for re-roll 1s plasma and Wrath of Mars on the Infiltrators (one Vanguard squad as front line defense for the mini-castle)
Thanks in advance!
Why not do a Blender Captain?
Sword Brethren formation
Captain w/ Jump Pack (4A) (or Bike)
Bolt Pistol
Chainsword (+1A) + Relic: Teeth of Terra (+D3A)
WLT: Master Swordsman (+1A, +1 hit on roll of 6)
Suffer Not the Unclean to Live (2 CP): +1A, reroll wounds
Honour the Chapter (3 CP): Fight again
Otherwise, BA Smash Captains are still better because of the ignore OW and the consistency that Lemartes offers.
You might want some anti-Psyker defense. Is that Mars dogma really that valuable? If not, how about making some of those units Graia for the stratagem access?
I like the Blender Captain idea, I'd just be slightly worried against Knights. I'll magnetise and try both and see what works best.
Hopefully good positioning of the captain may give me the psychic defense for the first two rounds. I agree that the Mars dogma is pointless, but I believe the Dominus can only buff same <Forgeworld> and I'm hoping to use the re-roll 1's on both the plasma Vanguards and the Infiltrators (for maximum mortals). Nothing to stop me making the bare bones Vanguard Graia that said, and that would give me two potential denials a phase (different strategems).
Thanks again!
EDIT: Actually the math on the Blender Captain and the TH is not that different even against a Knight (assuming Sanctuary relic). 8ish wounds per combat versus 10ish wounds. Plus its a lot more versatile. Thanks!
SECOND EDIT: Actually bad math. 8ish versus 14ish. Still not terrible
### Guard Batallion
- 2 Officers
- 30 Infantry
- 2 x 3 Mortar teams
I am worried that you won't be able to clear a Catachan screen in time for your Smash Captains to make a difference. That seems to be the only serious plan to deal with Knights. 4x Lascannon Ballistarii aren't going to cut it.
Maybe cut the Scouts? You don't actually need them, since you aren't doing a Dakkabot list.
TheMortician wrote: Thanks for the feedback! I like the Blender Captain idea, I'd just be slightly worried against Knights. I'll magnetise and try both and see what works best.
Hopefully good positioning of the captain may give me the psychic defense for the first two rounds. I agree that the Mars dogma is pointless, but I believe the Dominus can only buff same <Forgeworld> and I'm hoping to use the re-roll 1's on both the plasma Vanguards and the Infiltrators (for maximum mortals). Nothing to stop me making the bare bones Vanguard Graia that said, and that would give me two potential denials a phase (different strategems).
Thanks again!
Alas, Blender Captain probably will only shine in a future where MEQs are good. I think Shield Captains and Smash Captains are still the best Imperium choices these days.
Infiltrators are probably your best bet here. Soften up a target best you can with Mortars and such. You DS them and the Smash Captain in. Try to blow a hole, charge in. Fortunately, you don't need too much room, but it can be tough if they interlock multiple squads together.
Ok, so what would you think about this type of list?
Mars Battalion - Servitor detachment
Cawl
TPD - Biosplicing
5 Rangers with 2 Arquebus and Omnispex
6 Plasma Destroyers with Flammers
6 Breachers with Arc Rifles
4 Servitors
4 Servitors
8 inflitraors flecetts
2 Icaurs Crawler
1 Neutron Crawler
Stygies Battalion
2 Enginseers
5 Vanguard
5 Vanguard
5 Vanguard
2 Lasbalistarii
4 Dragoons
1991pts and 9cp after I get the special detachment and give the destroyers the 5+ invun.
I think the Dominus and the Enginseers I should be able to heal up wounded Kataphrons then bring back slain ones and heal up them to keep the squads almost starting size over the course of a game, hopefully, I do think I want them as Mars just to help their accuracy and get the two canticles I guess or do I go mixed forges to use all the startagems? Maybe I don't need three crawlers with all the kataprhrons and the Lasbalistarii's, I could go with two and free up some more troops points?
I want to mainly stick to admech, but as we dont have many choices I want to put a knight in for 2k points or higher. We Lack mobility, antitank and CC capabilities so I want him to fill as many holes as possible.
What would be good traits and relics to run then for -2cp? Should I run him as a freeblade, is it worth? And do I pick or roll for them to get 1 more or less respectivly and which ones to pick?
Here my current list:
Graia Bat.:
2 Enginseers, one with Necromechanic for the knight, guarded by servitors and ruststalkers
5x5 Vanguards ( filling with plasma if still have points)
1x4 Servitors
2x5 Ruststalkers ( Rule of Cool, might swap out one squad though)
0XFallen wrote: I want to mainly stick to admech, but as we dont have many choices I want to put a knight in for 2k points or higher. We Lack mobility, antitank and CC capabilities so I want him to fill as many holes as possible.
What would be good traits and relics to run then for -2cp? Should I run him as a freeblade, is it worth? And do I pick or roll for them to get 1 more or less respectivly and which ones to pick?
Here my current list:
Graia Bat.:
2 Enginseers, one with Necromechanic for the knight, guarded by servitors and ruststalkers
5x5 Vanguards ( filling with plasma if still have points)
1x4 Servitors
2x5 Ruststalkers ( Rule of Cool, might swap out one squad though)
Mm... this is a weird mix of units. Here, let me post a list and explain my thinking:
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 500
Lord of War - 500 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Hekaton Siege Claw, Twin Rad-cleanser, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: The Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1999 points 20 CP (-3)
+Necromechanic to repair the Sytrix
+Eye is perhaps the only good relic we have, so it's good to get if you're taking Necromechanic
+Icarus Crawlers and Las Ballistarii to shoot down bikes, battlesuits, transports
+Graia lets you deny psychic spells
+Agripinaa lets you rapid deploy your Servitors inside your own deployment zone; can use Graia too, but there are plenty here
+Infiltrators to selectively delete infantry behind enemy lines; can fight heavier targets in a pinch
+Lots of infantry to grab objectives
+CP recycler to draw out your already ridiculous amount of CP -No solid anti-tank aside from the Knight; boils down to your Knight versus their super-heavy
-No Mortars to thin out Drones and Grotz hidden out of LOS
In essence, a Knight list needs to be built around your Knight, just like how a list with Dakkabots needs to be built around the Cawlstar. You have to have things to screen your Knight, grab objectives, kill fast vehicles that can pin your Knight, a decent amount of melee as well. I use a Styrix here, but you can also use a Castellan. It's just even more CP hungry and even more reliant on your infantry, which I guess is not a huge problem.
Kanluwen wrote: Hoplites or Peltasts: do people like either one of them?
Hoplites seem pretty good for Drills if you bring Skitarii friends and a Mask. The Hoplites are a bit meh. Regular Skitarii seem more appealing. Lucius Shooty Priests are probably better than both though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you're that concerned about preventing Psyker powers, using Graia for the Infiltrators in that mixed detachment would likely be beneficial.
But then you would lose Wrath of Mars, which combines with Doctrina to make them hit really hard.
I alternated between Monitor Malevelous for 6+/6+ and +1 to repair and Kurov's. Both felt okay. The omniscient mask was fairly useless and never helped because the Infiltrators always deep struck far away.
Game 1 - Jesse
Jesse was running a loyal 32 and 63 grey knights. His list could theoretically put out 240 bolter shots on the perfect turn. This ended up being a far harder list than you might think. Dakkabots would have been flatly superior to the Castellan knight. But I still like the knight in every other matchup. I got first turn and was able to shoot guard squad off the table and a few grey knights thanks to the knight being able to climb 'Hills' and it being 12" tall. Every turn he pushed forwards and used his 'shoot through walls' psychic power and he never failed a psychic test. But turn 3 all my guardsmen were dead. I needed to be much more aggressive with my infiltrators, but this was just too tough of a matchup because my screens and infiltrators are so vulnerable to hundreds of accurate bolter shots and weapon swings at -3, d3 damage. We ended up timing out after round 4 and I lost 21-27 or so. I think I could have won this with 6 turns and more careful play, but slow play tho. The infiltrators + cawl were allstars that picked off lots of grey knights a turn until they were easily tied up in combat because my entire screen died so fast. I should have casteled harder and concentrated my forces tighter. Also, Grey Knights characters are crazy strong now and easily rival the various smash captain builds. The grey knights can use their psychic powers to move around the board and bring some strong psychich support in addition to their thunderhammers.
Game 2 - lets call him Jon
Jon was running a sub optimal genestealer cults list. He had lots of abberanets and a loyal 32 and a 6x biovore ball and a swarmlord and two different flavors of 15x genestealer bombs. I got second turn and my castellan climbed up a 'hill' (not a ruin) and got LOS on his biovores. His initial genestealer wave kill 20 guardsmen. But then another 20 combined squads and swung twice with the full catachan auras to kill the 15 off. The RAVEN strategem erased all 6 biovores because there weren't any ruins for them to whore out in. After that his various melee waves crashed into my guardsmen and rangers and died. I dropped my infiltrators in the back field and they rinsed away his loyal32 and took his objectives. Swarmy crashed into the icarus, they didn't die, then fell back and let the knight and guys shoot the swarmy. It was effectively a tabling on turn 5.
Game 3 - Romeo
Rom was running a fairly optimized tau list of 3x riptides, 3x missilesides, lady commander, 25 shield drones, firewarriors for CP, and the scea 3x markerlight guys. I luckily got first turn, put everything I had into shooting his missilesides and killed one and 12 drones. I began a pattern of suiciding my 60 guys using move move move to hold 3 objectives. He then did 14 wounds to my knight using half of his CP and i had to 3++. He killed about 10 guardsmen but then I spend CP and got lucky on my morale to hold 3 objectives to his two. I also got kill more since he didn't kill anything due to lucky and CP morale. Next turn my shooting kinda sucked but I killed another missile side and 10 more drones using my icarus. I did not use the RAVEN strat and instead repaired twice and went for wrath of mars. This was bad. The wrath of mars sucked and I rolled all the wrong mortal wound rolls so two missile sides lived on low wounds. My knight had 18 wounds and using all his CP he killed it through a 4++ save. A good tau list can kill a big knight in two turns of firing using all their CP. My infiltrators then pushed up and killed some more guys on the side and charged some firewarriors and commanders. A riptude turned around and sneezed on a 10 stack of infiltrators and they all died. But, due to my continuous sacrifice of multiple squads and characters on the objectives I was decisively ahead on primary and won by 10 something points.
Unit reviews:
Cawl - he got the luckiest roll ever and aced a grandmaster dreadknight at 6" with a reroll into 5 + 6 damage. Also, litany of the electromancer did 1 mortal wound to the dreadknight first. This resulted in Cawl's first ever kill.
Icarus - these are tough and good blockers for the knight. Cawl makes their firepower permanently relevant, especially against tau or any of the curently in meta 1-2 wound elite infantry models. With the repair WLT you can easily fill up a crippled onager all the way to full. In my tau game these things stalemated the game against CP-less riptides with no missileside support. Neither side could get a kill, but I had more infantry.
Infiltrators - they really need T3 targets. I want to like them but I don't have the CP to make wrath of mars consistently work with the damned Castellan knight. Also, they are never in range for the omniscient mask. They hit like trucks in melee with the +1 to hit and rr1 canticle. Overall I like them and think they are a good thing in primary admech lists. They did wonders against the genestealer list, and did help versus the tau kind of, but they wet the bed kind of against the grey knight player. Hopefully I can run them again this saturday to get more practice in with them.
Rangers - they don't do any killing and they are cheap and they give CP and they can hide in the back and still throw out 5 bolter shots while being your deep strike deniers.
Catachan Infantry - these guys rock when they can do their thing. They really do kill like 4x as much as cadians in combat. I can't think of when you want more rangers than you would want more catachans. Maybe ... and I mean maybe ... big GRAIA balls of mixed rangers and vanguard with the GRAIA WLT of shoot into combat and the omniscient mask can kinda compete with catachans. But then you still don't have MOVE MOVE MOVE, and MOVE MOVE MOVE wins games. Cadian mortars are really popular, but they are fewer wounds and fewer attacks and you cant use them for MOVE MOVE MOVE tricks like you can infantry blobs. If you are in a bad matchup (like a Tau that can kill your knight/dakkabots), just move move move you mans onto those objectives. The only other infantry blob I would consider competitive would be a VALHALLA blob just because you don't need straken. But then you can't do powerful swings that kill genestealers or other assault elements. VALHALLA would be strictly better for running up the field and squatting on objectives due to the superior morale and the excellent relic that limits morale losses to 1 model. MOVE MOVE MOVE is almost always better than shooting their guns. I don't think they did even a single wound all RTT from overwatch so consider just not rolling it or find ways to optimize rolling it fast.
Castellan knight - this thing is still dominant. InControl brought his Porphyrion and won the RTT over the best Tau player in the game right now (Brian). Porphyrion is just better than the castellan, but the castellan still does work. If you face tau, RAVEN into the missilesides and hope for 3x rolls of a 1. Always shoot the big guns last and try to bait the reroll on the 1s. I will try a dakkabot list out on saturday if I can so I can get a comparison, but I am certain that dakkabots are just worse against tau. You end up with a 4++ versus the 18 shots rerolling to wound str6/-2/2 damage riptide. That means 2-3 dead bots a turn. But the knight can actually get a lucky kill and fight from 48" range and doesn't auto lose if he gets piled in to.
Straken/Priest - these two are an 80 point tax combined. If your guardsmen don't end up in combat then that is 80 points down the pisser. But when the do, the guardsmen really are good at killing fast light melee threats. If you run VALHALLA you get those 80 points back and limit your guard to strictly being objective squatters.
0XFallen wrote: I want to mainly stick to admech, but as we dont have many choices I want to put a knight in for 2k points or higher. We Lack mobility, antitank and CC capabilities so I want him to fill as many holes as possible. What would be good traits and relics to run then for -2cp? Should I run him as a freeblade, is it worth? And do I pick or roll for them to get 1 more or less respectivly and which ones to pick? Here my current list:
Graia Bat.: 2 Enginseers, one with Necromechanic for the knight, guarded by servitors and ruststalkers 5x5 Vanguards ( filling with plasma if still have points) 1x4 Servitors 2x5 Ruststalkers ( Rule of Cool, might swap out one squad though)
Mm... this is a weird mix of units. Here, let me post a list and explain my thinking:
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 500
Lord of War - 500 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Hekaton Siege Claw, Twin Rad-cleanser, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: The Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1999 points 20 CP (-3)
+Necromechanic to repair the Sytrix +Eye is perhaps the only good relic we have, so it's good to get if you're taking Necromechanic +Icarus Crawlers and Las Ballistarii to shoot down bikes, battlesuits, transports +Graia lets you deny psychic spells +Agripinaa lets you rapid deploy your Servitors inside your own deployment zone; can use Graia too, but there are plenty here +Infiltrators to selectively delete infantry behind enemy lines; can fight heavier targets in a pinch +Lots of infantry to grab objectives +CP recycler to draw out your already ridiculous amount of CP -No solid anti-tank aside from the Knight; boils down to your Knight versus their super-heavy -No Mortars to thin out Drones and Grotz hidden out of LOS
In essence, a Knight list needs to be built around your Knight, just like how a list with Dakkabots needs to be built around the Cawlstar. You have to have things to screen your Knight, grab objectives, kill fast vehicles that can pin your Knight, a decent amount of melee as well. I use a Styrix here, but you can also use a Castellan. It's just even more CP hungry and even more reliant on your infantry, which I guess is not a huge problem.
Kanluwen wrote: Hoplites or Peltasts: do people like either one of them?
Hoplites seem pretty good for Drills if you bring Skitarii friends and a Mask. The Hoplites are a bit meh. Regular Skitarii seem more appealing. Lucius Shooty Priests are probably better than both though.
So the Styrix, what is the hype? Cheap 3++? Is it just that he is tough? I am not seeing the damage output as that great. He is 500 points whereas the 4x rocket castellan is 593. His weapon profiles are all super dodgy against another knight (but good against riptides). A crusader with the 4++ WLT is almost as tough, but can switch between the GATLER and HeadsMark depending on opponents.
EDIT: the math on krast crusaders shooting at castellans is pretty good. For sure it forces the 3++ every time. And a krast crusader would have been pretty good in all the games I had. For sure better versus the grey knights and genestealers. Against the tau i could have used rotate ion shields more often and the more dakka from the gatler could have killed more drones. The crusader needs a lot less CP than the castellan, which was a total CP hog. I would have to lean more on wrath of mars, but I think I should be. Yeah, going to try and take out the crusader on saturday. That will get me a few more rangers.
@Wulfey
GK are much improved. I consider them to be second rate 1K Sons.
Crawlers and Mortars are key against Tau. Gotta kill their Drones for your Volcano Lance to land hits.
Yeah. You only need 2x10 Guard and the Crawlers to fully screen your Knight against shooting armies, so the remaining 3-4x10 Guard should be running around grabbing objectives with Move Move Move. The only time I would keep them all in close is against aggressive assault armies like Orks, Nids/GSC, and Eldar.
Omniscient Mask is not that great; it only seems good on paper. The only time I can see it being useful is if you have an Enginseer out there with your Knight, and you have Dragoons supporting that Knight.
Your point on not being forced to choose between sustaining your Infiltrator and your Castellan is why I think the Styrix is better.
Really? A Porphyrion? Sigh. The problem with bringing a Knight is that you are always under immense pressure to bring the bigger Knight, even if it's wildly inefficient.
I think 80 points is a good insurance policy against being overrun by a horde. Straken actually has a really good body too.
Wulfey wrote: So the Styrix, what is the hype? Cheap 3++? Is it just that he is tough? I am not seeing the damage output as that great. He is 500 points whereas the 4x rocket castellan is 593. His weapon profiles are all super dodgy against another knight (but good against riptides). A crusader with the 4++ WLT is almost as tough, but can switch between the GATLER and HeadsMark depending on opponents.
EDIT: the math on krast crusaders shooting at castellans is pretty good. For sure it forces the 3++ every time. And a krast crusader would have been pretty good in all the games I had. For sure better versus the grey knights and genestealers. Against the tau i could have used rotate ion shields more often and the more dakka from the gatler could have killed more drones. The crusader needs a lot less CP than the castellan, which was a total CP hog. I would have to lean more on wrath of mars, but I think I should be. Yeah, going to try and take out the crusader on saturday. That will get me a few more rangers.
The Krast Styrix has many things going for it that make it great for AdMech. Built-in Ion Bulwark frees up the WLT. And there's no need for Cawl's Wrath, which frees up the Relic. Using both, you get reroll 1s to hit and bonus damage against titans; this makes up somewhat for the lack of Raven stratagem. It's also a Questoris, so only 1 CP for 3++; using the 2 CP per turn opportunity cost to fuel Tech-Adept + Benevolence or Resurgent, you can see that Styrix is wayyyy more durable than Castellan. Indeed, the super cheap CP requirement is the biggest draw. Then you need to look at the secondary weapons. You get a non-throwy Gauntlet, which means you can threaten vehicles in the midfield. You also have two anti-elite weapons that are much stronger than a Heavy Stubber or Flamer.
In short, lots of value for very little commitment.
A Krast Crusader is comparable, but you don't get the fightiness or the rerolls.
Alone? It doesn't really work. Knights can't walk over infantry on the first move, and your opponent should have tools to handle a Knight. Indeed, a Knight's value comes later; once all of its threats are removed, if you are the only one with a Knight, the other guy has to play around a moving, shooting, fighting, un-killable firebase.
More generalized advice: Don't plan a strategy with the assumption that it will work. Always ask: What can go wrong?
I mean the arc rifle has twice the shots still does d6dam vs vehicles at a trade off in S and AP but realistically against targets like IK that lower AP makes no difference.
Performance is therefore simillar between the 2 weapons but the arc rifle is 14pts per model cheaper and has 12" more rangenot a small difference.
+ we have neutronagers for the few targets where AP4 matters.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you're that concerned about preventing Psyker powers, using Graia for the Infiltrators in that mixed detachment would likely be beneficial.
But then you would lose Wrath of Mars, which combines with Doctrina to make them hit really hard.
Doctrina doesn’t directly help Wrath of Mars, just helps those 2 rolls become hits. Assuming rerolled ones that’s what, improving an average of 5 or 6 mortal wounds to an average of 8?
Just in case you were making the mistake I did early on, thinking WoM activated on hit rolls of 6 (rather than wound rolls, something we can’t buff).
IVIOOSE wrote: Have any of you tried a terryan outflanking gallant with landstrider just to put pressure on them later turns and mess with them?
I desperately want this to work, but there is a big problem with solo knights. A single knight in a SHD does not get a HOUSEHOLD TRADITION. This means you don't get the 3d6 drop the lowest for TERRYN. But you do get access to the strategems (specifically the TERRYN fight twice strategem). This also means you don't get the 6+++ FNP for TARANIS (but you do get the strategem to stand back up).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you're that concerned about preventing Psyker powers, using Graia for the Infiltrators in that mixed detachment would likely be beneficial.
But then you would lose Wrath of Mars, which combines with Doctrina to make them hit really hard.
Doctrina doesn’t directly help Wrath of Mars, just helps those 2 rolls become hits. Assuming rerolled ones that’s what, improving an average of 5 or 6 mortal wounds to an average of 8?
Just in case you were making the mistake I did early on, thinking WoM activated on hit rolls of 6 (rather than wound rolls, something we can’t buff).
I have a small tournament coming up in March and was looking for some advice. It’s 2.5k points and will probably have around 30 folks. No ITC/ETC just normal rules from rulebook and faq/chap approved etc. The expected opponents will be a healthy mix from competitive types to casuals bringing the odd Warhound Titan. I’m also expecting quite a variety of factions though from hordes to superheavies and aeldari lists
I have to stick to Admech/Knights and stay mono forgeworld. I have bounced between a few ideas for my list and cannot decide what to do. I thought I had a list in my mind but I’ve changed it yet again.
The core of my list is a Castellan and two Gallants which I really want to run as Taranis for darkest hour shenanigans. Knights are fully magnetised so I have options there. I also have a Valiant, two Hellverins and two warglaives but I don’t expect to use these.
I am undecided if I should back the Castellan/Gallants with a dragoon heavy stygies list or a mars dakkabot list. Ironically the 2500 point limit is actually giving me more of a headache despite being able to squeeze more in.
I have quite a few Admech units but I am running out of time for adding and getting things ready in time.
Does anyone have any thoughts as to which route they would go down.
**Also credit to poor Suzuteo who has been bombarded with my questions in the run up to this tournament haha**
I have just bought some more Kataphron Destroyers (I will have 9 plasma, and 3 Grav). and I was just wondering what to equip the new 6 plasma destroyers with (phosphor blasters or cognis flamers?)
currently I have 3x plasma destroyers with phosphor blasters, 2x grav destroyers with phosphor and 1x grav destroyer with flamer.
do I equip the 6x new destroyers with the flamers for overwatch defense or go for phosphor to increase the damage (even if only a bit) at range? I tend to run the Kataphrons as either Ryza or Stygies.
I had two dakkabot lists. One that had 53 barebones rangers as screen and another with only 30 but a ton of transuranic arquebus in the list
I would go for the 30 with arquebus, as this way you can get rid of any psykers that your opponant brings before they get many powers off. it also allows you to camp the rangers in the back field to prevent deep strike etc. and let them still have a meaningful impact on the game.
Are you going to be playing in ITC? Because I can tell you that 53 guys is >>> 30 guys that can shoot a little better. The 30 guys that shoot better have a better combat attrition value assuming both sides sit there and throw dice. But what if you face a list that out shoots yours? Like Tau? Then you just lose. Or what if you face a list with a lot more bodies than you? Then you lose on objectives. Having run my loyal 63 last weekend I cannot go back to having fewer models than the other guy. ITC punishes you badly for having less objectives than your opponent and only bringing more bodies gets you more objectives. Also, guardsmen are flatly overpowered relatives to rangers. It is dumb. Even if rangers are combat attrition better than guardsmen in a shooting gallery match, MOVE MOVE MOVE just breaks everything. Guardsmen can run 14-24" a turn. It is a joke. Who cares if they never shoot. Those extra 30 something bolter shots a turn aren't going to swing the game. But running 24" up and stealing an objective will. Especially if you are in a game where your opponent's army can kill yours.
I have wanted to try out arquebuses for a while but over and over again the fact that they can't move and shoot and the opportunity cost of missing out of 3 more bodies to have that 1 arquebus keeps me away from them. To make them work you would need some kind of commitment or gimmick. Not just 3 arquebus because that doesn't statistically kill a company commander per turn. You need 6. And you also need some favorable terrain. I can't figure out a way to make them work honestly. Maybe a skyshield landing pad so you can force a terrain location that works for you?
Do all you guys play these weird ITC missions? I think you guys play different games of 40k than I do...all your lists look, well, strange. Like not geared up for a knock out fight. The lists just look like they are built to sit on objectives and die...
Its probably just me though- I'm not much of a tournament player!
You get to take 2 per 5 guys wulfey, so with 30 rangers in 6 squads he'd have 12 arquebuses (arquebi?) Which is probably getting to the point they can be somewhat relied on. Plus they can hurt vehicles and MC's pretty reliably, I'd say most lists can find a use for them. 390pts to give characters the middle finger isn't too bad. 12 shots, ~9 hits with reroll 1's, 6 wounds with a mortal wound or 2, and say 2 to 3 will get through to most characters dealing D3 damage per. Given how much most lists rely on characters, you're either forcing the opponent to hide to stay out of the line of fire or dealing damage they're not used to taking.
But not being able to move really hurts them. They're one of the only weapons in the game that can't move and shoot, and with ITC terrain rules odds are whatever you want to snipe can just hide from most of them. If they could move and shoot, even taking the heavy penalty they'd be really awesome, but not being able to move means they can just be ignored. Which is really weird because back in 7th rangers had relentless, and that made them one of the only infantry units that could move and shoot with heavy weapons without penalties. Really makes GW's decision to make them unable to move and shoot all the more puzzling.
Really if you're taking arquebuses they're no longer acting like troops, you're taking them because you're forced to take troops but wanted to just gunline instead. That or you really hate characters. They'd be really good for a red tide list I bet, one where you just committed to nothing but infantry and used them as your fire support units alongside more mobile infantry units.. Maybe if the new admech hq provides a way to reroll wounds for cheap and fill out detachments you could make it work. That or have them allied with an IG infantry company to make up the numbers and mobility, or ally in stormtroopers for the same thing. I'm gonna give both a try sometime and see how it goes. May not be super competitive but it'd be fun.
I can see them being an excellent choice for casual or even competitive games where ITC rules aren't used. It's really ITC magic bunker rules that shut them down.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heafstaag wrote: Do all you guys play these weird ITC missions? I think you guys play different games of 40k than I do...all your lists look, well, strange. Like not geared up for a knock out fight. The lists just look like they are built to sit on objectives and die...
Its probably just me though- I'm not much of a tournament player!
Yes, itc is a completely different beast. What's good in ITC isn't necessarily good in casual and vice versa. Also terrain rules are different so it's much harder to win with just shooting.
So take the transuranic arquebus, I gurantee you we will start hearing casual players start complaining about them in less competitive areas. When you can see most the board and shoot through ruins those things will be nasty when spammed. But in ITC where 1st floor guaranteed blocks line of sight they'll often not get to do much.
Are people here only discussing heavy tournament ideas? I only play in local tournaments and play mono Admech, as I want to see how far I can push them, and some fun lists from time to time.
Regarding Arquebi, If I take them I only use min squads with 2 Arquebi as they cant move so the rangers are only shields and are mostly not in range anyway, Omnispex doesnt do much as they are either not in cover or have a high enough invuln. I currently have 4 which is were the threat starts to kill most turn 2. I also mainly use them to stay in the back to deny deepstrike and sit on objectives as our onagers are too big for some.
Regarding Relentless, I loved the Idea, still do. However changing the arquebus to the current state is fine by me, BIF IF it was a really strong weapon. I know its the best sniper but it could be either S8 or AP-3/4 as its only one shot, costs more than plasma and is immobile. Always loved to shoot anti Tank rounds.
I think most of us play a mix of rule sets. But this thread is geared toward tourney play, and ITC is the most common tourney ruleset.
The Guardsmen are great for multiple reasons, but the three most important are:
1) Body count for objective secured
2) Crazy mobility
3) Protects your gunline against hordes
@Wulfey this isn’t a tournament using ITC rules, just regular 40k with chap approved and the latest faqs.
@Mrmoustaffa yeah no special ruin rules for this tournament. It’s basically a casual style tournament setup but it contains a lot of competitive minded players mixed in with some casuals.
My current list for those that are interested. (10 arquebus’s)
Kastelan Robots [30 PL, 550pts] . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
I've been looking at agripinaa breachers now they are really cheap. Do we think it is worth giving them the +1inv from the maniple im not sure its worth it as with auto cover 2-3 turns depending on whether you go first I'm not sure it impacts enough?
Kill Team: Arena is joined next week by loads of awesome new stuff, including two new Kill Team Starter Sets – containing new Character models for both the Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Mechanicus...
If I were designing him, I would price him at 35 points and give him the choice between an anti-vehicle gun or a targeting device that provides an Overlapping Fields of Fire effect.
For the former, BS2+ 60" Rapid Fire 1 S6 AP-4 DD3; basically, a souped up rail rifle.
For the latter, 36" Heavy 3 S6 AP-1 D1. Say, if he inflicts an unsaved wound on a target, reroll failed wounds rolls for all <Forge World> units that shoot at that same target.
“Oh – and there’s one more thing. Something SO AWESOME we couldn’t fit it into the article. Something Forge World fans have been looking forward to for a very, very long time. We’ll have more on just what that is very soon…”
Could it be fires or that acastus class knight previewed a year ago?
Ideasweasel wrote: “Oh – and there’s one more thing. Something SO AWESOME we couldn’t fit it into the article. Something Forge World fans have been looking forward to for a very, very long time. We’ll have more on just what that is very soon…”
Could it be fires or that acastus class knight previewed a year ago?
A few people have been asking about that in the comments of the facebook post but since FoC is a 40k book I can't imagine they will talk about it at a heresy weekend which they seem to imply too so I don't hold much hope of anything for 40k maybe rules for some of the marine stuff and possibly the ordinatus, maybe.
Ok so running with the advice from the thread I've a 2k Tournament in March (no forge world allowed) and i'm going to try this mixed brigade
Ryza Tech-Priest Dominus Master of Biosplicing (-1 CP)
Ryza Tech-Priest Enginseer
+ Fast Attack +
2 x Mars Ironstrider Ballistarii Cognis Lascannon
4 x Stygies Sydonian Dragoons Taser lance
1 x Stygies Sydonian Dragoons Radium Jezzel (tax so I could run the brigade)
+ Troops +
6 x Agripinna Kataphron Breachers Heavy Arc Rifles and Arc Claws
6 x Ryza Kataphron Destroyers Plasma Culverins and Flamers 5+ Invun (-1 CP)
5 x Mars Skitarii Rangers
5 x Mars Skitarii Rangers
5 x Garia Skitarii Vanguards
5 x Garia Skitarii Vanguards
5 x Garia Skitarii Vanguards
+ Elites +
4 x Servitors
4 x Servitors
8 x Sicarian Infiltrators
5 x Sicarian Ruststalkers
+ Heavy Support +
Mars Onager Dunecrawler Icarus
Mars Onager Dunecrawler Icarus
Mars Onager Dunecrawler Neutron Laser
The ruststlakers are there as I had the spare points and wasn't sure what else to use, rule of cool and I guess counter charges maybe, just needs to make some servitors and finish my destroyers. One annoying thing is the TPD aura is a little gimped since the TPD and the units forgeworld has to match so that was annoying.
Heavy Support - 884 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
I forgot to upload my Vigilus rulebook to my iPad though, and I forgot them. So I never made use of the Conclave stratagems or Litany. Sigh.
Deployment
Wulfey wins the roll off for deployment. The map is Spearhead Assault and the scenario is Nexus Control (which no one likes). He had 20 units to my 19, and I deploy first.
The board is marked by two craters in my center rear, one ruin on my left and right, and an enclosed ruin in my center. Wulfey has a hill in his center rear, an enclosed ruin on his right, a ruin on his left. In the center, from my perspective, left to right, are craters, a large landing platform with two enclosed ruins beneath it, and trees.
We decided to dispense with the turn-by-turn and just deploy all of our infantry first. (I cannot wait for the new deployment rules.) I deployed for safety, and I placed two Guardsmen on my right, three in the center, and one on my left. My Vanguard were deployed in front and behind the centermost Guardsmen. My Crawlers were placed in the center. My Kataphrons in the ruins on my left, and my Robots behind them, using the length of the table to keep them out of the Castellan's LOS; I note that the ruins on Wulfey's left are elevated, making them the most likely candidate for his Castellan's deployment.
Given deployment along the long axis, Wulfey is inherently at the range advantage. However, in order to take advantage, he has to deploy conservatively. The height of the ruins on his left are too good to pass up, and he places his Castellan there. His Crawlers are deployed with Cawl on his right. Two Guardsmen and a Ranger are placed on his left. Two Guardsmen were inside the ruins on the right, with one of each Guardsmens and Rangers behind it. Two Infiltrators are placed in reserve.
Wulfey takes Old School, Reaper, Butcher's Bill
Suzuteo takes Kingslayer, Reaper, Butcher's Bill
We were both clearly expecting a bloodbath to be decided mostly by our infantry. I win the roll off and choose to go second because I do think this will be decided by objective control.
Round 1
Both of us take Shroudpsalm.
Turn 1 - Wulfey
Wulfey advances and MMMs one Guardsmen on each flank into the two central ruins. His Rangers enter the ruin on his right, and an additional two Guardsmen hold the center objective. His Crawlers move right to get a better angle on my Guardsmen outside my center ruins. He wipes one squad of Guardsmen, scoring First Strike (Old School). He also moves his Castellan and shoots my right Crawler, scoring Butcher's Bill.
Turn 2 - Suzuteo
In my center, I move all of my infantry in my center ruins toward my center left ruins. I attempt a charge, and it succeeds for Straken, one Guardsmen, and my Vanguard, but my second Guardsmen are left behind. I kill all but one model of Wulfey's unit in that ruins.
On my right, I advance and MMM one Guardsmen onto the objective within cover of the trees. I now have two to his one.
On my left, my Kataphrons botch their Advance and fail to get further into the central ruins that my infantry have just vacated. I use Acquisition At All Costs to give them a chance at surviving the Crawlers' barrage the next turn. My Crawler moves further left to get out of LOS of the Castellan. He has nothing to shoot.
I decide to gamble and move my Kastelans into the open on my left, seeking to punish Wulfey's Crawlers the next round if they decided to stay and shoot my Kataphrons. Their Advance was very poor as well.
I disperse two of my rear Guardsmen to deny Deep Strike. I failed to kill any units. It was a very bad turn.
5-2
Round 2
Wulfey takes Invocation of Machine Might. I roll Shroudpsalm.
Turn 1 - Wulfey
Wulfey reinforces his center right ruins with the Guardsmen in his center left ruins. A second squad from the ruins on his right also advance and MMM. He charges the Straken with his Guardsmen, and only manage to land a single wound on him.
He advances and MMMs one Guardsmen on his left to contest the objective beside the trees; three bodies come within 3" of the objective. His Rangers shoot at my squad holding the objective, bringing them down to four. I hold.
His Castellan opens up on my Kastelans with everything but the Siegebreakers. His Siegebreaker miffs. Excellent rolling kills three of them exactly, and the third one explodes for 1 wound. His Crawlers shoot my Kataphrons. He only manages to kill one, with the Acquisition saving them.
With my deep strike screen in place and no good target for the Infiltrators, Wulfey opts to hold them both in reserve.
Turn 2 - Suzuteo
On my right, I bring up a unit of Guardsmen. With Rapid Fire and FRFSRF, I wipe his advancing Guardsmen out.
In my center, one Vanguard grabs the left objective by the craters. I activated my Vanguard first by mistake and got flustered. They can kill only the lone survivor of the previous round. I was on-tilt and then made the mistake of activating Straken. Wulfey picks up two Guardsmen and saves his exposed unit from being hit by my Guardsmen.
On my left, I use Mindlock+PlasmaSpec on my Kataphrons; three shooting the right Crawler that is further away, and two shooting the left Crawler. The right Crawler miraculously survives. Both are severely wounded. I move up my Robots and Override, shooting without Wrath, destroying both of them. After this, Cawl charges into the center left ruins, killing many of Wulfey's reinforcing Guardsmen.
I managed to hold more objectives and kill more units than Wulfey, who killed none. This is a complete reversal.
7-8
Round 3
Both of us roll Shroudpsalm.
Turn 1 - Wulfey
Wulfey drops both units of Infiltrators on his left and paste the Guardsmen on that objective. His Rangers move up, as does Straken, who combined with the surviving Guardsmen from his center left ruins, kill everyone but one of my Guardsmen and a MiniPriest in his center right ruins.
The Castellan moves unloads everything into my Kataphrons. Killing all of them and scoring Last Strike.
Turn 2 - Suzuteo
On my left, my surviving Crawler guns down the last unit of Rangers there.
I fall back my MiniPriest and Guardsmen. My Kastelans turn their guns rightward, wiping out the surviving Guardsmen who are exposed due to the daisy chain, as well as Wulfey's Rangers. I Advance and MMM my reinforcing Guardsmen on my right, taking the objective. Back on the left, I charge again with my Cawl. Wulfey's Straken heroically intervenes. I kill some Guardsmen, and he uses the stratagem to interrupt, killing my last Guardsman in the ruins. He then fights, killing my MiniPriest.
I advance all of my screen, just because.
12-12
And that is time. Three hours. We count Reaper. I killed 61 of Wulfey's infantry; he killed 42 of mine.
Final score is 14-15, with me squeaking out the win.
Suffice to say, it was a VERY near thing. I am 100% sure that if this went to the bottom of Round 5, Wulfey would have won. He would not allow my Kastelans to survive the next turn, and he would be free to massacre my surviving infantry with his Infiltrators. I could hold the objectives next turn because I had more ObSec troops remaining to Advance+MMM (Wulfey was down to his last Guardsmen, and I had two and a Vanguard unit left out of the range of his guns), but no longer than that.
Lessons learned:
1) Castellans are still ridiculous and meta-defining. If they get the range advantage on you, you just have to deploy the Kastelans aggressively and pray to the Omnissiah that they will live to shoot back.
2) Ryza Plasmaphrons are amazing. 2 CP on a unit of 5 almost took out two Crawlers; and they were finished off by my Kastelans.
3) Guardsmen are super OP. Body count is of paramount importance. I won this on the blood and oil of my ObSec infantry.
4) Mortars inside of Guardsmen units are not useful when it is a frantic objective-grabbing game. Split them off.
5) One unit of Infiltrators and no more. There doesn't ever seem to be a case where you need two, but one drastically changes player behavior. And try to use them immediately; they literally did nothing for 2/3s of the game here.
6) Bring lots of CP. My Grand Strategist only generated 2/3 possible CP. I was down to my last 1 by the end. Wulfey generated 3/3 and had 3 left.
7) Vanguard are great with Catachan in melee. My men, despite being outnumbered in the center, really put the hurt on Wulfey's Guardsmen.
Ideasweasel wrote: @Suzuteo Nice report, I forgot you two chaps are locals.
How come you are missing the LVO? I would love to go one day but it’s a far trek from the uk!
@Wulfey are you tweaking your list before Friday?
Oh yeah. ph34r is around these parts too.
Because work consumed me in 2018, and I didn't participate in the tourney circuit at all. Took me forever just to paint enough infantry to field the list I have. Now I got to make another 12 or go down to 5x10.
I think I will be participating this year, my travel schedule permitting. I have BAO tickets already. I am thinking of also going to SoCal Open and LVO. Otherwise, just doing some local tourneys. Most of them are out in the boonies though.
If we go off the new kill team info it looks like we know the statline for the Manipulus and his 2 guns.
The Magnarail Lance is 18" Str 7 Ap 3 D D3, if he stands still its flat 3.
The Transonic cannon is an 8" flamer Str 4 AP 1 D 2.
These profiles are most likely the exact same as there 40k counterparts as kill team uses the same weapon profiles.Overall what are peoples impressions? He doesnt seem to have the best ranged weapons from the looks of it. Interesting his unique tactic adds 1 to models movement so maybe they will transfer across and we will get an aura of +1 movement.
Other than that we will have to wait a bit longer this week to get his 40k rules profile, but i dont think it will deviate much from this kill team preview.
Oddly he only has a 3+ save for a Tech Priest..... interesting.
We got a slight preview of the new "Tech-Priest Manipulus" today:
Spoiler:
They comment that for Kill-Team it serves as a "happy middle ground in terms of power and points" for the Enginseer and Dominus. Hopefully that translates to the main game(would be surprised if it did not).
I'm a fan of the special rule on the Magnarail Lance. It's a nice setup for a special weapon.
Kanluwen wrote: We got a slight preview of the new "Tech-Priest Manipulus" today:
Spoiler:
They comment that for Kill-Team it serves as a "happy middle ground in terms of power and points" for the Enginseer and Dominus. Hopefully that translates to the main game(would be surprised if it did not).
I'm a fan of the special rule on the Magnarail Lance. It's a nice setup for a special weapon.
With 3s and 4s for the Magnarail Lance vs most vehicles i dont know what target will be best for him, maybe heavy infantry and light vehicles but he will be hit and miss vs T7 and above units. It all boils down to what auras if any he gives, hes currently better than another Enginseer but the Dominus outclasses him atm.
They said his 40k rules will be previewed later this week. Most definitely his profile is different - all the commanders have different profiles between Kill Team and 40k apparently, and ranges are the one thing to consistently differ between Kill Team and 40k.
rollawaythestone wrote: They said his 40k rules will be previewed later this week. Most definitely his profile is different - all the commanders have different profiles between Kill Team and 40k apparently, and ranges are the one thing to consistently differ between Kill Team and 40k.
Who told you that?
The biggest difference is that Auras aren't "always on". You have to pay a CP to use them.
I doubt his profile will differ from what we see for KT. Although I'd really wish so... as it's meh. At best, a better HQ than another Enginseer but completely passable otherwise.
18" range is pretty trash for a range specialist, especially since he doesn't want to move with the heavy weapon. If he was B's 2+ maybe, but at 3+ he's a coinflip. I wish he'd gotten an option for a volkite weapon or something that could do mortal wounds, or more range on this weapon. I guess he can babysit an objective in a ruin or something and take a potshot every now and then?
The flamer is underwhelming. 2d is nice but I can't think of a moment where I'd rather have that over most other weapons. We don't know if he actually gets an omnissian axe yet, since it looks like a weird staff, but with 3 ws3 attacks and a 2+/5++ and Regen I guess he can help clean up weakened units in assault. At first glance I'm really struggling to see what role he plays other than "cheaper HQ for detachment tax". I really hope he has some sort of buff ability. If he can allow us to reroll wounds of 1 or buff a units BS by 1 he'll be excellent, otherwise just kind of meh.
On the bright side he'll be easy to make. I plan on using leftover datasmith and Dominus bits since I have a bunch of both laying around and just kitbashing him.
He grants +1 Movement to friendly models within 6" at the start of the Movement Phase as his "pay 1CP" Aura for KT, which means that's his native aura.
It looks like his role is to take an objective and hold it, occasionally plinking heavier targets with his Magnarail to soften them up for a Charge or something from Sicarians.
The +1 movement is nice, but when we already have Termites delivering everything close or everything camping, when will we use it?
+1 to charge would've been vastly more useful.
Kanluwen wrote: He grants +1 Movement to friendly models within 6" at the start of the Movement Phase as his "pay 1CP" Aura for KT, which means that's his native aura.
It looks like his role is to take an objective and hold it, occasionally plinking heavier targets with his Magnarail to soften them up for a Charge or something from Sicarians.
If his aura really is just +1 move that makes his heavy weapon completely unusable, and probably one of the least useful auras in the game. And I say that as a guy who footslogs a ton of skitarii and Onagers up the table every game. I can make a list that takes advantage of it and it let's me run infantry heavy without useless enginseers, but it's a really niche use and doesnt help most admech players.
There must be some alternative buff or ability he has. Why would the give a heavy weapon that rewards you for standing still if his only buff is movement? I mean this is the same team that made "unemployed in 80 days" Harken but I want to have at least some hope the rules team aren't suffering a mild stroke in the design room.
Again, why do we not have a skitarii subdominus/alpha? The lore talks about them, the mechanicus video game talks about them, the old skitarii codex had them. Why can we not have this one thing GW?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The +1 movement is nice, but when we already have Termites delivering everything close or everything camping, when will we use it?
+1 to charge would've been vastly more useful.
Depending on what can use it, I can see some places for it. Being able to roll Kataphron up a bit quicker for example.
And really, let's stop pretending that everyone has a Termite.
Kanluwen wrote: He grants +1 Movement to friendly models within 6" at the start of the Movement Phase as his "pay 1CP" Aura for KT, which means that's his native aura.
It looks like his role is to take an objective and hold it, occasionally plinking heavier targets with his Magnarail to soften them up for a Charge or something from Sicarians.
If his aura really is just +1 move that makes his heavy weapon completely unusable, and probably one of the least useful auras in the game. And I say that as a guy who footslogs a ton of skitarii and Onagers up the table every game. I can make a list that takes advantage of it and it let's me run infantry heavy without useless enginseers, but it's a really niche use and doesnt help most admech players.
As of right now, this is the only thing we know about. I can think of a few places for the aura to be useful and most if not all of them are with Sicarian.
There must be some alternative buff or ability he has. Why would the give a heavy weapon that rewards you for standing still if his only buff is movement? I mean this is the same team that made "unemployed in 80 days" Harken but I want to have at least some hope the rules team aren't suffering a mild stroke in the design room.
His buff is an increase to Movement to anything that starts the Movement phase within range of him.
He does not have to move.
Again, why do we not have a skitarii subdominus/alpha? The lore talks about them, the mechanicus video game talks about them, the old skitarii codex had them. Why can we not have this one thing GW?
Because.
The old Skitarii Codex allowed for us to ignore the HQ requirement and field a Warlord that was pulled from one of our squads. They didn't want to let us have a nice thing I guess.
Well yeah but if he doesn't move up with the army you get the buff once. What's the point in a movement buffing model that doesn't move up with the army? I mean the flamer works with this but here's hoping we have a reason to use the heavy weapon and not have his ability be useless.
Do we know if it's only movement or does it also helps with charge rolls?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The +1 movement is nice, but when we already have Termites delivering everything close or everything camping, when will we use it?
+1 to charge would've been vastly more useful.
Depending on what can use it, I can see some places for it. Being able to roll Kataphron up a bit quicker for example.
And really, let's stop pretending that everyone has a Termite.
Kanluwen wrote: He grants +1 Movement to friendly models within 6" at the start of the Movement Phase as his "pay 1CP" Aura for KT, which means that's his native aura.
It looks like his role is to take an objective and hold it, occasionally plinking heavier targets with his Magnarail to soften them up for a Charge or something from Sicarians.
If his aura really is just +1 move that makes his heavy weapon completely unusable, and probably one of the least useful auras in the game. And I say that as a guy who footslogs a ton of skitarii and Onagers up the table every game. I can make a list that takes advantage of it and it let's me run infantry heavy without useless enginseers, but it's a really niche use and doesnt help most admech players.
As of right now, this is the only thing we know about. I can think of a few places for the aura to be useful and most if not all of them are with Sicarian.
There must be some alternative buff or ability he has. Why would the give a heavy weapon that rewards you for standing still if his only buff is movement? I mean this is the same team that made "unemployed in 80 days" Harken but I want to have at least some hope the rules team aren't suffering a mild stroke in the design room.
His buff is an increase to Movement to anything that starts the Movement phase within range of him.
He does not have to move.
Again, why do we not have a skitarii subdominus/alpha? The lore talks about them, the mechanicus video game talks about them, the old skitarii codex had them. Why can we not have this one thing GW?
Because.
The old Skitarii Codex allowed for us to ignore the HQ requirement and field a Warlord that was pulled from one of our squads. They didn't want to let us have a nice thing I guess.
Ignore the Termite for a moment then and think about Lucius and Stygies being used to get around the low mobility. Even if the Priest were just 60 points he really wouldn't be worth it.
Also yeah I'm still mad about needing to take a Priest. That's not why I signed up for Skitarii originally. GW did listen to be fair, but they listened to the wrong people on that.
Auto-take if the aura remains the same. If you don't need a repairbot, giving your Phrons and Crawlers +1" move is pretty big.
The sound flamer is much better than the lance. You can advance 7"+D6 and shoot it into some infantry. In contrast, the lance has this weird mix of low range and a stationary bonus.
MrMoustaffa wrote: 18" range is pretty trash for a range specialist, especially since he doesn't want to move with the heavy weapon. If he was B's 2+ maybe, but at 3+ he's a coinflip. I wish he'd gotten an option for a volkite weapon or something that could do mortal wounds, or more range on this weapon. I guess he can babysit an objective in a ruin or something and take a potshot every now and then?
The flamer is underwhelming. 2d is nice but I can't think of a moment where I'd rather have that over most other weapons. We don't know if he actually gets an omnissian axe yet, since it looks like a weird staff, but with 3 ws3 attacks and a 2+/5++ and Regen I guess he can help clean up weakened units in assault. At first glance I'm really struggling to see what role he plays other than "cheaper HQ for detachment tax". I really hope he has some sort of buff ability. If he can allow us to reroll wounds of 1 or buff a units BS by 1 he'll be excellent, otherwise just kind of meh.
On the bright side he'll be easy to make. I plan on using leftover datasmith and Dominus bits since I have a bunch of both laying around and just kitbashing him.
MrMoustaffa wrote: 18" range is pretty trash for a range specialist, especially since he doesn't want to move with the heavy weapon. If he was B's 2+ maybe, but at 3+ he's a coinflip. I wish he'd gotten an option for a volkite weapon or something that could do mortal wounds, or more range on this weapon. I guess he can babysit an objective in a ruin or something and take a potshot every now and then?
The flamer is underwhelming. 2d is nice but I can't think of a moment where I'd rather have that over most other weapons. We don't know if he actually gets an omnissian axe yet, since it looks like a weird staff, but with 3 ws3 attacks and a 2+/5++ and Regen I guess he can help clean up weakened units in assault. At first glance I'm really struggling to see what role he plays other than "cheaper HQ for detachment tax". I really hope he has some sort of buff ability. If he can allow us to reroll wounds of 1 or buff a units BS by 1 he'll be excellent, otherwise just kind of meh.
On the bright side he'll be easy to make. I plan on using leftover datasmith and Dominus bits since I have a bunch of both laying around and just kitbashing him.
You mean 3+ 5++
according to the preview it has a 2+/5++ for KIl team, not sure why it would have any different in 40K?
MrMoustaffa wrote: Well yeah but if he doesn't move up with the army you get the buff once. What's the point in a movement buffing model that doesn't move up with the army? I mean the flamer works with this but here's hoping we have a reason to use the heavy weapon and not have his ability be useless.
The point would be that he allows you to keep your countercharging elements back a bit further than the enemy might expect, then throw them in...or he lets you have a kind of 'staging area' before sending in a bunch of units to go after Objectives during the match.
Do we know if it's only movement or does it also helps with charge rolls?
I'm guessing it can potentially help with Charge rolls, as it's +1 to their Movement characteristic if they started the Movement phase within 6" of him...but it doesn't say when it expires.
MrMoustaffa wrote: 18" range is pretty trash for a range specialist, especially since he doesn't want to move with the heavy weapon. If he was B's 2+ maybe, but at 3+ he's a coinflip. I wish he'd gotten an option for a volkite weapon or something that could do mortal wounds, or more range on this weapon. I guess he can babysit an objective in a ruin or something and take a potshot every now and then?
The flamer is underwhelming. 2d is nice but I can't think of a moment where I'd rather have that over most other weapons. We don't know if he actually gets an omnissian axe yet, since it looks like a weird staff, but with 3 ws3 attacks and a 2+/5++ and Regen I guess he can help clean up weakened units in assault. At first glance I'm really struggling to see what role he plays other than "cheaper HQ for detachment tax". I really hope he has some sort of buff ability. If he can allow us to reroll wounds of 1 or buff a units BS by 1 he'll be excellent, otherwise just kind of meh.
On the bright side he'll be easy to make. I plan on using leftover datasmith and Dominus bits since I have a bunch of both laying around and just kitbashing him.
You mean 3+ 5++
according to the preview it has a 2+/5++ for KIl team, not sure why it would have any different in 40K?
Ideasweasel wrote: @Suzuteo Nice report, I forgot you two chaps are locals.
How come you are missing the LVO? I would love to go one day but it’s a far trek from the uk!
@Wulfey are you tweaking your list before Friday?
Yeah, here are my tweaks specifically from that game:
2x10 infiltrators -> 1x10 infiltrators Their 180 points is going in to:
3x5 rangers -> 2x10 omnispex rangers (just enough to kill a weak squad a turn and camp my backline cause catachans need to move up), 2x6 GRAIA vanguard +1x Astropath to give that critical guard squad a defensive buff and give me a second bite at stopping JINX 4x/1x on knight -> 2x/2x guns, the extra missiles often aren't fired, but the extra gun always is, it is ~40% the firepower of a 172 point helverin Enginseer -> GRAIA, he babysits the knight, not the Crawlers WL -> Company commander is now the WL with GS + Kurov's. The free rerolled save is more damage saved on the knight than the extra repairs over the course of the game.
The second infiltrator group is just junk. It doesn't do anything. I often don't have the CP for a single WRATH, let alone 2x. And I have consistently not been able to place the second group due to spacing issues.
Vanguard + Catachans are best friends in the mid board. Wounding Orkz and Genestealers on 3s is a big deal.
The second canticle roll is dumb. It can't be put on the knight and does me no good. I didn't want to run a mixed detachment because of fluff, but who cares. Mixed detachments are just better. EDIT: now I gotta pick a separate color to paint over my green for the GRAIA guys, maybe yellow? ohhh
I’m calling it now: the manipulus will buff priests. The fluff describes him as a conduit for the motive force, which is what the priests use to channel their electric attacks. If it’s something like allowing them to advance and charge or re-roll wounds it’ll be reall useful.
It confuses me that he’s in a KT with sicarians, but i guess his ranged weapns support them, because otherwise the sicarians out-move him. I kinda expected him to have at least 8” to keep up with them and im expectig a Fly keyword as well....he is floating lol. A 6” move supports a pairing with priests as well.
That staff is clearly some kind of shmacy vox caster type affair you ask me, definitely not an axe. The magnarail is better than both of the do,inus main weapons and the transonic cannon will work nice with emotionless clarity. It’s weird that they described him as a ranged specialist though, despite being short range than a dominus (who has weapons that have no useful role) and the aura benefits close combat more than anything.
Incidentally not everything is the same between KT and 40k. Radium carbines are 3D on a 6 in KT, which would be awesome if that made it’s way to 40k. Another interesting point is that the points cost of sicarians in KT is now virtually the same as they are in 40k post CA. We know they work several years ahead rules-wise, could be that KT rules and stats are a precursor to some future 40k changes. But i’m probably reading too much into that lol.
Octovol wrote: I’m calling it now: the manipulus will buff priests. The fluff describes him as a conduit for the motive force, which is what the priests use to channel their electric attacks. If it’s something like allowing them to advance and charge or re-roll wounds it’ll be reall useful.
It confuses me that he’s in a KT with sicarians, but i guess his ranged weapns support them, because otherwise the sicarians out-move him. I kinda expected him to have at least 8” to keep up with them and im expectig a Fly keyword as well....he is floating lol. A 6” move supports a pairing with priests as well.
That staff is clearly some kind of shmacy vox caster type affair you ask me, definitely not an axe. The magnarail is better than both of the do,inus main weapons and the transonic cannon will work nice with emotionless clarity. It’s weird that they described him as a ranged specialist though, despite being short range than a dominus (who has weapons that have no useful role) and the aura benefits close combat more than anything.
Incidentally not everything is the same between KT and 40k. Radium carbines are 3D on a 6 in KT, which would be awesome if that made it’s way to 40k. Another interesting point is that the points cost of sicarians in KT is now virtually the same as they are in 40k post CA. We know they work several years ahead rules-wise, could be that KT rules and stats are a precursor to some future 40k changes. But i’m probably reading too much into that lol.
his Staff weapon does look quite a lot like the Fulgurite staff...
ultimentra wrote: If +1 to movement is it, then he'll sit on sprue for a while. The flamer is better IMO, nice for when flyers or ghostkeels get in your face.
I mean, unless he costs considerably more than an enginseer then he still beats having a redunant second or third enginseer in a list. Enginseers are probably THE most "diminishing returns" HQ that actually sees tables, there is rarely if ever more to repair then what Cawl + 1x Techpriest or Dominus + 1x Enginseer couldn't handle, and outside of repairing Enginseers do absolutely nothing on the table (well, I guess you could use them for bubble wrapping which I end up doing with my second one most of the time).
Kanluwen wrote: He grants +1 Movement to friendly models within 6" at the start of the Movement Phase as his "pay 1CP" Aura for KT, which means that's his native aura.
It looks like his role is to take an objective and hold it, occasionally plinking heavier targets with his Magnarail to soften them up for a Charge or something from Sicarians.
Yeah, his weapon options have "designed for Killteam with 0 thoughts given to regular 40k performance" written all over it. The Lance has no clear purpose and has a special rule that clashes with it's short range to the extreme (to the point it'll barely if ever come into effect, and unlike, say, a meltagun, it's baseline profile doesn't even come close to being solid without it). Also 18" range on a 3+ model that will hit on 4+ if moving (heavy) is the final nail in the coffin. The flamer would be good as a troop special weapon choice, but on a 6" movement character (7" at best if he benefits from his aura)? Not only extremely hard to actually get into range (maybe once in an entire game), but with D6 S4 AP -1 very unlikely to make back his points, even if he is only, say 40 points. And he also exposes himself to the other player like a duck on a silver platter, if he needs to e.g. kill a character for a special objective or trigger other boni.
The only thing he is good at is tying down trash, cheap objective grabbers, bubble wrap and weak disruption units thanks to his T4 2+/5++ save and D3 wound regeneration each turn.
In the end whether or not he will see play outside of casual matches and Killteam comes down exclusively to the point cost. If he is only a tad more expensive than an enginseer (say 40-45 points) he'll be worth it as 3rd or 4th HQ filler who can actually contribute to the army with some some shizophrenic but not completely useless firepower (still far better than an enginseer which has LESS firepower than an infantry squad sergeant, he can't even toss a frag grenade!) and an alright movement buff for objective grabbing/chaff/Skitarii horde repositioning, as well as some utility as a melee blocker. Thinking about it, the flamer is probably the much better choice, at least it'll have 8"+6"+1"+D6" range if advancing (so 16"-21" threat range, that's alright), has some utility for cleaning out objective grabbers or annoy T5/6/7 vehicles and monsters or multi wound units, and has some synergy with him serving as a melee blocker.
If he (what I fear) is too pricy and too expensive compared to enginseers (so 56+ points for me, 25 points being the absolute maximum I'm willing to pay for the gun, aura and utility, and that is already pushing it hard) for HQ slot filling and not cheap enough compared to a Dominus (who not only has far more firepower... but some actually good buffs, repairs and melee blocking potential), he'll be dead in the water and will be remembered as "ah that crappy and pretty ugly HQ we got instead of an Alpha Primus or Secutor we actually need to fill the hole of Skitarii firepower/leadership buffing character in our army".
What does everyone think about the new Bolter Discipline rule?
Bikes actually seem pretty good now. 8x Heavy Bolter shots and Storm Shield. Terminators get 4x Stormbolter shots and a Storm Shield--maybe a melee weapon? (Death Guard and 1K Sons made off like bandits with this buff. Now they have a good anti-horde option in their troops.)
Just so we're clear:
We don't know he lacks the ability to repair or anything else(I would be shocked if he didn't have something like that, since all the other Techpriests have some version of it). We got one previewed Aura for the new character.
Yeah, the magnarail isn't shooting across the board...did we really expect it to?
Suzuteo wrote: What does everyone think about the new Bolter Discipline rule?
Bikes actually seem pretty good now. 8x Heavy Bolter shots and Storm Shield. Terminators get 4x Stormbolter shots and a Storm Shield--maybe a melee weapon? (Death Guard and 1K Sons made off like bandits with this buff. Now they have a good anti-horde option in their troops.)
Vanguard and Rangers are still better than the basic stuff Marines have. Now, vs Sternguard that's more of a wash. Centurions can actually delete stuff again.
The real concern is of course Deathwatch if they stand still with Storm Bolters.
Octovol wrote: The magnarail is better than both of the do,inus main weapons
100% disagree.
This gun is essentially an arquebus, except missing all the good stuff (mortal wound effect, character-targeting, 60” range, ability to bring multiple in one unit) and keeping the cripplingly bad part (a single shot that is incredibly vulnerable to rolling 1s or 2s on the hit or wound roll, or failing against an enemy invuln - just too many chances to fail and too few shots to overcome that).
I’d take the volkite blaster or even eradication beamer over this gun any day.
The flamer makes him an acceptable footslog companion if he has a movement aura, but that isn’t a playstyle I’m very fond of. Am still hoping he has rerolls of 1 to wound as an aura.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Well yeah but if he doesn't move up with the army you get the buff once. What's the point in a movement buffing model that doesn't move up with the army? I mean the flamer works with this but here's hoping we have a reason to use the heavy weapon and not have his ability be useless.
The point would be that he allows you to keep your countercharging elements back a bit further than the enemy might expect, then throw them in...or he lets you have a kind of 'staging area' before sending in a bunch of units to go after Objectives during the match.
Then this buff should've been 3"+ to make a significant difference. With the current ruleset, when we lack any ways to reroll charges or charge after advance, I can't see a reason to hinge my counter-charge on that additional 1". Not in the world, where Orks (and I'd suspect the upcoming GSC) can charge on 3 dice and get to the counter-chargers in their turn, from a DS range.
Suzuteo wrote: What does everyone think about the new Bolter Discipline rule?
Bikes actually seem pretty good now. 8x Heavy Bolter shots and Storm Shield. Terminators get 4x Stormbolter shots and a Storm Shield--maybe a melee weapon? (Death Guard and 1K Sons made off like bandits with this buff. Now they have a good anti-horde option in their troops.)
If you were to run Blood Angels maybe some Scout bikes. For 69 points you get: 12 S4 shots above 12" and 18 below on a fast (16" with 6" auto advance!) platform.
Other then that I feel it´s another good buff for Intercessors as troop choices. Sit 5 of them on a midfield objective and they will hold it, unless some serious firepower is directed their way and they still can contribute with 10 S4 -1 shots in a 30" radius.
Octovol wrote: The magnarail is better than both of the do,inus main weapons
100% disagree.
This gun is essentially an arquebus, except missing all the good stuff (mortal wound effect, character-targeting, 60” range, ability to bring multiple in one unit) and keeping the cripplingly bad part (a single shot that is incredibly vulnerable to rolling 1s or 2s on the hit or wound roll, or failing against an enemy invuln - just too many chances to fail and too few shots to overcome that).
I’d take the volkite blaster or even eradication beamer over this gun any day.
The flamer makes him an acceptable footslog companion if he has a movement aura, but that isn’t a playstyle I’m very fond of. Am still hoping he has rerolls of 1 to wound as an aura.
The problem with both the Dominus guns is that you either go for the Volkite and rely on the minuscule chance of getting a 6 to wound for the MW component on 3 shots (It's essentially a ruststalker transonic weapon at range) Or you get fewer shots and some ap at range with the eradication ray. And if you somehow manage to be within 8" of something without it already having tied you in combat, extra AP and damage. They're not reliable for anything, it's just extra dice you roll because you have them without any kind of discernable purpose.
The magnarail might be shorter range, but it has the str, the ap and the damage to take out elite infantry and deal significant damage to light and medium vehicles. The range component is the biggest failing, it's yet another example of an admech rule that seems to have been conceived in isolation. A short-range weapon you're incentivised to stay out of range to make it better. Like the eradication ray.
Incidentally, we didn't see all the rules for the manipulus, for all we know he can move and fire heavy weapons at no penalty. There's also the chance that he has a mechadendrite hive given his belly-appendage is identical to Cawl's. All we've seen is a stat line, 2 weapons and one ability as well as a strategm for extra movement. I must admit that the +1" movement feels underwhelming though, I can see benefits, but 1" improvement on anything is not nearly enough to make a meaningful impact. 3" would be significant as long as it applies to charges as well. Don't forget movement works differently in KT, you don't move then charge, you make a charge movement. So that additional movement may still yet apply to charges. Just...that 1" improvement, doesn't feel special.
The 'vox-caster' staff is what i'm most interested in.
I like to stay hopeful, disappointing rules hasn't yet affected my ability to enjoy Admech, possibly with the exception of Ruststalkers lol
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: Yeah, his weapon options have "designed for Killteam with 0 thoughts given to regular 40k performance" written all over it.
He doesn't seem very good for kill team either. He's only BS 3+ and seeing as he'll get stacking penalties from hitting anything outside of 9", his target being in cover and/or having to move with the Heavy weapon, he probably won't be hitting very much with a single shot weapon.
His flamer does look appealing for a sicarian killtema i reckon.
On another note:
Can a Freeblade benefit from the Landstrider warlord trait. It states that knights with the same household as the warlord(in which case is the freeblade) get bonus to advance and charge.
Was thinking about adding a sole Gallant to my list and wondered what relic/trait and or equipment to give him.
He can have the warlord trait legally however he does not have a household as freeblade replace household so no model includeing itself will derrive a benefit from it. I have only used it on a warglaive in a competative list though. Defensive buffs +1 to hit or +1 att are all good choices
The problem with both the Dominus guns is that you either go for the Volkite and rely on the minuscule chance of getting a 6 to wound for the MW component on 3 shots (It's essentially a ruststalker transonic weapon at range) Or you get fewer shots and some ap at range with the eradication ray. And if you somehow manage to be within 8" of something without it already having tied you in combat, extra AP and damage. They're not reliable for anything, it's just extra dice you roll because you have them without any kind of discernable purpose.
The magnarail might be shorter range, but it has the str, the ap and the damage to take out elite infantry and deal significant damage to light and medium vehicles. The range component is the biggest failing, it's yet another example of an admech rule that seems to have been conceived in isolation. A short-range weapon you're incentivised to stay out of range to make it better. Like the eradication ray.
What makes the magnarail worse is the 18" range which will force you to move in order to fire it at anything worthwhile... which results in the Manipulus only hitting on 4+ with a single shot weapon thanks to it being a heavy weapon. Also a special rule that only works in extreme cases (staying still while having a worthwhile target within 18" of you) and will barely if ever come into play.
The Dominus has 24" range with the Volkite, doesn't have to jump through hoops to trigger the weapon's special rule and still hits on 3+ after moving. Additionally you get another S5 AP-1 shot hitting on 2+ with the phosphor serpenta. Not great, but better than what the Manipulus has to offer with his "long range option" almost all the time. Also the firepower of a Dominus becomes rather nasty if you got the one CP to spare to take a Phosphoenix, 3 shots S6 AP0 MW on 6+ + 3 shots S5 AP-3 ignore cover isn't a joke. Not that you'd take either character for the firepower, mind. It remains to be seen what the Manipulus has to offer, but he needs something decent at a justified points cost to be worth taking.
Suzuteo wrote: Yes, actually. Who thinks railguns are short-range weapons? Lol.
Railrifles are 30"...I don't think it is too crazy for the Mechanicus knockoff version to be 12" shorter.
Tell that to the poor Tau Plasma rifles that are now completely inferior to their 'unreliable and dangerous' imperial equivalents ^^.
That's nothing new though. Imperial stuff has always had the ability to 'overcharge' while Tau stuff is meant to be like Eldar: no overcharge but 'safer' stats.
Suzuteo wrote: Yes, actually. Who thinks railguns are short-range weapons? Lol.
Railrifles are 30"...I don't think it is too crazy for the Mechanicus knockoff version to be 12" shorter.
Tell that to the poor Tau Plasma rifles that are now completely inferior to their 'unreliable and dangerous' imperial equivalents ^^.
That's nothing new though. Imperial stuff has always had the ability to 'overcharge' while Tau stuff is meant to be like Eldar: no overcharge but 'safer' stats.
Problem with that is that the old, "overcharged" profile of plasma guns with S7 is now the risk free "safe" profile while going S8 D2 when overcharged, leaving the no-overcharge mode, S6 Tau plasma rifle the strictly inferior weapon. It didn't help that until recently plasma rifles had almost the same point cost as several imperial plasma guns.
But that's something we can blame the writer of the Tau Index on, considering we have other gems like Assault cannons going from 4 to 6 shots, while Tau burst cannons that used to have the same rate of fire (being pulse gattling guns) stayed at 4 shots (wut). And let's not even take the Railgun into account (which would be a perfectly fine weapon system if it had D3 shots like our Neutron Cannons).
The problem with both the Dominus guns is that you either go for the Volkite and rely on the minuscule chance of getting a 6 to wound for the MW component on 3 shots (It's essentially a ruststalker transonic weapon at range) Or you get fewer shots and some ap at range with the eradication ray. And if you somehow manage to be within 8" of something without it already having tied you in combat, extra AP and damage. They're not reliable for anything, it's just extra dice you roll because you have them without any kind of discernable purpose.
The magnarail might be shorter range, but it has the str, the ap and the damage to take out elite infantry and deal significant damage to light and medium vehicles. The range component is the biggest failing, it's yet another example of an admech rule that seems to have been conceived in isolation. A short-range weapon you're incentivised to stay out of range to make it better. Like the eradication ray.
What makes the magnarail worse is the 18" range which will force you to move in order to fire it at anything worthwhile... which results in the Manipulus only hitting on 4+ with a single shot weapon thanks to it being a heavy weapon. Also a special rule that only works in extreme cases (staying still while having a worthwhile target within 18" of you) and will barely if ever come into play.
The Dominus has 24" range with the Volkite, doesn't have to jump through hoops to trigger the weapon's special rule and still hits on 3+ after moving. Additionally you get another S5 AP-1 shot hitting on 2+ with the phosphor serpenta. Not great, but better than what the Manipulus has to offer with his "long range option" almost all the time. Also the firepower of a Dominus becomes rather nasty if you got the one CP to spare to take a Phosphoenix, 3 shots S6 AP0 MW on 6+ + 3 shots S5 AP-3 ignore cover isn't a joke. Not that you'd take either character for the firepower, mind. It remains to be seen what the Manipulus has to offer, but he needs something decent at a justified points cost to be worth taking.
If i’m honest id rather they had worse ranged weapons but actually gave some better force multipliers. We have plenty of stuff that shoots and there are very few HQ units in other armies that you take purely for their combat abilities, theyre almost all there to lead and make other stuff better. The Dominus doesnt really do that, i mean re-rolling 1s is nice, but it’s nothing you couldnt manage without and the enginseer doesnt do anything at all in that respect.
The manipulus does feel like another illconceived admech unit though, at least without the full picture of the rest of the rules. Just what they’ve teased has kinda done more harm than good. Again.
0XFallen wrote: Can a freeblade be questor mechanicus?
And if I not make him a Freeblade, does he count as having a household alone while not getting the benefits?
Yes. I believe Freeblade overrides the House, not the allegiance. Many Knights actually have fixed allegiances.
I can make one imperial knight a character if my army is battleforged, does that also count with the heavy auxilliary detachment with only having one knight? If that were the case I wouldnt have to pay CP to give him the trait and a relic, right?
Edit: Just reread it they specifically mention the normal super heavy detachment
. Lucius Corpuscarii, with Graia Skitarii, with Stygues Drill and Fulgurites (for the optional infiltration shenanigans) - and you have the best of each world noy caring about the crappy dogmas at all.
