Man, I wish we had that rule instead of a selectively applied 6+ invulnerable save...
@Octovol
I think Apocalypse has different rules?
Very different rules, to the point that they'll be like entirely different games. Far less dice rolled. Most dice I've seen a single unit shoot in the previews is maybe 10,.
Suzuteo wrote: @Hulksmash
Interesting. I think we have a bunch of options now. Not sure if Mortars + Icarus Crawlers + Auto-Striders is the best way about it. It seems to over-focus on light vehicles and flying units.
Besides, Dakkabots and Mortars complement one another. We used to run Guardsmen Mortars, Basilisks, and Wyverns before the ITC faction rules change. Dakkabots are great at converting CP to wounds on a variety of targets. Their weakness is their LOS. Mortars can apply a lot of pressure to enemies trying to avoid them, especially Eldar bikes, and they don't need CP. Dragoons complete the weapon triangle for mechanized AdMech by posing an assault threat.
So there are three ways to apply pressure. LOS, non-LOS, assault. If you want to go Stygies and be much more mobile, then maybe Las-striders, Mortars, Dragoons?
I don't find the bots to be that important if I have 3 of each of the others. And the list still has a decent number of Mars strat units that rock 29+ shots. And it still has kataphrons for decent anti-tank. I've also found them decent cc threats now that people are starting to get a feel for them. I'm looking something like;
And I might go farther and drop to 2 Battalions and a Spearhead. In which I drop the breachers and maybe the ironstriders for 2-4 transports depending on pts and maybe one or two of the fw infantry units.
@Hulksmash Oh, you're doing a Brigade. That makes a lot more sense now.
Breachers have not been very strong fighting for me. They miss a lot. They are pretty solid shooting though, especially against <T7 vehicles. Which is why I have the Las-striders and the Dakkabots, both of which still perform great against T7-8.
I can't convince myself to go back to Crawlers after seeing how good Las-striders perform in certain matchups.
@Pomguo The new tanks might not have one. But who knows? In any case, we have Shroudpsalm, so I rarely fall back on the invulnerable save. (I do intentionally take it for my Dakkabots while rooted though.)
Not sure about the difference in dice. D12 would be a huge difference.>
Suzuteo wrote: @Hulksmash
Oh, you're doing a Brigade. That makes a lot more sense now.
Breachers have not been very strong fighting for me. They miff a lot. They are pretty solid shooting though, especially against <T7 vehicles. Which is why I have the Las-striders and the Dakkabots, both of which still perform great against T7-8.
I can't convince myself to go back to Crawlers after seeing how good Las-striders perform in certain matchups.
@Pomguo
The new tanks might not have one. But who knows? In any case, we have Shroudpsalm, so I rarely fall back on the invulnerable save.
Not sure about the difference in dice. D12 would be a huge difference.>
I think that against large blasts, it's a d6 to save but against a small blasts it's a d12 save.
Im not really convinced by the Skorpius at all.... its not the tank killer that they keep trying to sell to us. With the Ferrumite Cannon youve basically got a 3 shot stormstrike missile but its nothing really compared to the twin lascannons on a Balistarii or the Neutron on the Onager. The Disruptor Missile Launcher again isnt amazing, this tank seems to be designed to tackle light vehicles like Venoms, Buggies, Sentinels as its going to struggle vs T7 and definitely T8. The Bellerous Energy Launcher seems the more optimal pick but again the weapon isnt the best, the 3d3 shots, ignoring line of sight is nice but the ap -1 lets it down, it really should ignore cover as well or something....
Now the toughness of both vehicles, that really surprised me! Toughness 6 and Toughness 7...... hmmmm not liking that one bit, the transport better be below 100pts or im giving it a miss for sure. With the popularity of str 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 weapons out there they dont have any means to bypass that and are more susceptible to these lower end mid strength weapons that are quite common.
Back to the Skorpius, it needs to be a solid 110-120pts for me to even consider it at the moment, you can colour me not impressed in the slightest! Now if it can fire twice like the Repulsor Executioner, then we are talking about a new kettle of fish and i will immediately take back what i said. But until we get more of a picture of its rules/pts/synergies im giving it a wide birth as i cant see its value over the Onager and the Balistarii
The Ferum Tankettes (going to call Disintegrators "tankettes" from now on) are pretty mediocre. It's going to be like the Beamer Crawler.
How good the Missile Launchers and Mortars are will depend entirely on the points. But asssuming they are average, they both fill useful niches. The Missile Launchers are Taurox Battlecannons with an extra point of AP-1. And Mars Mortar Tankettes can be compared to Cadian Wyverns; they do a bit less to Guardsmen due to lower volume, but are superior against Tacticals and Bikes.
Three Mortar Tankettes output 9D3 shots, which means 9-27. That pastes a Guard unit on average and kills most members of a Tactical or a third of a Genestealer unit (which is important because they are usually deployed within ruins). Indeed, the fact that it can shoot into magic boxes or stop Engineers are why they are so necessary for ITC.
The Riders need to be 80-100. The Tankettes perhaps 100-120. Unless they get Grinding Advance, as you've said.
A full Ad mech army pure is now a lot closer. We got good tools now With this new vehicle. Options and proper tactics.
I know we missing a lot yet but still its a viable like never before and all that with one transport los shooting . I hope we see more soon but for now i can see pure lists aready.
If it is open topped we talking about 3x in list.
It has weakness low range caryy troops so it will be focused down. but still even if only alive for one or two rounds should be enough for our lists. HOpe we get a good set of rules points etc.
This low shooting just made guard obsolete in our lists in my eyes.
Suzuteo wrote: The Ferum Tankettes (going to call Disintegrators "tankettes" from now on) are pretty mediocre. It's going to be like the Beamer Crawler.
How good the Missile Launchers and Mortars are will depend entirely on the points. But asssuming they are average, they both fill useful niches. The Missile Launchers are Taurox Battlecannons with an extra point of AP-1. And Mars Mortar Tankettes can be compared to Cadian Wyverns; they do a bit less to Guardsmen due to lower volume, but are superior against Tacticals and Bikes.
Three Mortar Tankettes output 9D3 shots, which means 9-27. That pastes a Guard unit on average and kills most members of a Tactical or a third of a Genestealer unit (which is important because they are usually deployed within ruins). Indeed, the fact that it can shoot into magic boxes or stop Engineers are why they are so necessary for ITC.
The Riders need to be 80-100. The Tankettes perhaps 100-120. Unless they get Grinding Advance, as you've said.
I see value in the Belleros Engery Cannon but the Ferrum not so much when we already have Plasma Destroyers, Twin Cognis Lascannon Balistarii and the Neutron Onager. Being able to target things without LoS is a very crucial thing to have especially to the later parts of the game where depleted units tend to hide around objectives. The Ferrumite Cannon doesnt even feel like an Admech weapon, its a battlecannon pretty much, it need and extra something to make it an option over other AT units in our book, like a way to cause MWs or even bypass invun saves. Suddenly thats a valuable weapon that can be labelled as a tank hunter, but its current iteration isnt much to be feared and i would always go for the Belleros over it. As for the missile, if its free great! if im paying quite a few pts on it i would prefer not to even have them. Its got a bit of Repulsor going on, too many guns that differ from each others role that you will most likely have to pay for that unwanted flexibility.... If they were krak/stormstrike equivalents then hell yeah! Now we are talking, but they are pretty much Daedalus Rockets / Autocannons which i could do without personally. I tend to like my units to have a focus on a dedicated role and not try branch out to do all fields rather poorly.
I dunno i could be wrong and the rest of the vehicles rules could blow me away, but as it stands it just ignores the move and shoot heavy penalty which is not amazing.... Leman Russes, Fire Prisms, Repulsor Executioners all get to fire twice when they move half distance or less with the turret weapon, im really hoping this has the same ability....
Also this whole mobile fire thing they keep bragging on about isnt really as it seems, it only moves 4" quicker than its counterpart; the Onager, but its not like youll mostly use that extra 4" unless you are seriously trying to deploy further back. If you do push it to its max speed every turn you leaving your repairs and your buffs so its very counter intuitive to the rest of the battleline! And as far as we no it doesnt fly so it will still be restricted by terrain, models and whatever else can pen it in like our Onagers. Next if you need to move to get into range, weve already got the Manipulus to help us out in that department so its not really as mobile as youd think, I wouldnt be gunning it every turn Tokyo drifting it round obstacles, itll be with my other units that enhance it and it will be deployed in an optimal firing line already or move ever so slightly to get into LoS, and if your running the Belleros.... why are you moving to get LoS in the first place ahahaha!
I was excited for these 2 vehicles but not so much atm sadly
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i'd find it kinda weird for a weapon in apoc to randomly be longer reach. Attacks, strengths, or special rules would change but range? why range?
Working theory, at least on my end, is because of it being an Indirect Fire weapon.
The only other Indirect Fire weapon we've seen is the Deathstrike Missile but that isn't really a "weapon" that gets fired all the time.
TBH if i played ITC i would definetly use the Drills with or without priests. I like how they can screen its guns etc.
and the Troops Hoplites. I just not invest in models i wont be playing a lot. The Drill is super good with various options.
And the list Nanavati used is not a joke even without the infiltration. Keep in mind he used the Drills as a castle. And as suzuteo said the Balistarii as main guns with priests lucius for horde killers and .... Not a simple lists.
This unit can transport 10 Secutarii Infantry or <Forge World> Infantry models. It cannot transport Belisarius Cawl, Kataphron Breacher, or Kataphron Destroyer units.
Kastelans are classed as vehicles, so they can't go in them.
@deffreka
I think having extra S7 LOS shooting is useful for baiting out things like Lightning Reflexes. I already spread things out early on with my Knight. These tankettes are the same sort of unit with their diverse shooting profile. Think about it: 9x Heavy Stubbers, 3x Battle Cannons, 3x Mortars for roughly the same points you would expect from a Knight; T7 with 36W to boot.
I don't think these tankettes are tank destroyers. That's what our Las-striders already are.
Fingers crossed for Grinding Advance as well. Creeping Advance? Lol. Question about the Hover Platform rule though: Does it mean we can advance and shoot with -1 to hit? I am confused by the wording a bit, since Heavy weapons cannot shoot at all after advancing.
Actually, I fully intend to use these tanks as screens, just like how I use Crawlers as screens. T7 w/ 12W is quite a bit to chew through. And I bet they have a large physical profile.
@Kanluwen
Awh. Any open-topped?
EDIT: Doesn't seem like Apocalypse has that level of granularity for rules. So we wait.
Pre-order price seems to be $75. Yeesh. If the rules team doesn't slam dunk this, I doubt they're going to see good sales.
I'm planning on 3 at the moment. Two transports and a tank.
I have a lot of Skitarii, including 3 units of Secutarii Peltasts. I feel like these tanks will be a great way to get Secutarii Peltasts around the board to cause mischief.
Suzuteo wrote: @deffreka
I think having extra S7 LOS shooting is useful for baiting out things like Lightning Reflexes. I already spread things out early on with my Knight. These tankettes are the same sort of unit with their diverse shooting profile. Think about it: 9x Heavy Stubbers, 3x Battle Cannons, 3x Mortars for roughly the same points you would expect from a Knight; T7 with 36W to boot.
I don't think these tankettes are tank destroyers. That's what our Las-striders already are.
Fingers crossed for Grinding Advance as well. Creeping Advance? Lol. Question about the Hover Platform rule though: Does it mean we can advance and shoot with -1 to hit? I am confused by the wording a bit, since Heavy weapons cannot shoot at all after advancing.
Actually, I fully intend to use these tanks as screens, just like how I use Crawlers as screens. T7 w/ 12W is quite a bit to chew through. And I bet they have a large physical profile.
@Kanluwen
Awh. Any open-topped?
EDIT: Doesn't seem like Apocalypse has that level of granularity for rules. So we wait.
Pre-order price seems to be $75. Yeesh. If the rules team doesn't slam dunk this, I doubt they're going to see good sales.
I had a look at the Drukhari raider since its the only open topped vehicle that I could think of and open topped is listed as an ability on its data sheet, that says to me that the dunerider is not going to be open topped.
The Apocalypse datasheets are available, and the Dunerider has this transport capacity there:
This unit can transport 10 Secutarii Infantry or <Forge World> Infantry models. It cannot transport Belisarius Cawl, Kataphron Breacher or Kataphron Destroyer unit.
Okay. So the transport is not open-topped. It does not fly. It cannot transport Kataphrons, but it can transport Electro-Priests, Secutarii, and Skitarii.
What the hell is the rules team thinking? How is this preferable to a Drill? 4" of extra movement, but no deep strike?
Suzuteo wrote: Okay. So the transport is not open-topped. It does not fly. It cannot transport Kataphrons, but it can transport Electro-Priests, Secutarii, and Skitarii.
What the hell is the rules team thinking? How is this preferable to a Drill? 4" of extra movement, but no deep strike?
I'm not exceedingly worried over the "lack" of open-topped or Fly. I mean, the Kastelans don't have their Repulsor Fields instead having a 5+ save...by comparison the Skorpius has a 6+(!) and an Onager has a 5+.
I really didn't expect a "Fly" on this thing. I'm kinda/sorta expecting a bespoke rule allowing for it to move over intervening units as though it has Fly though, and I'm thinking the Assault Ramp might get a bespoked rule.
I played in a local RTT this weekend with ITC missions. I brought a lot of things I didn't have a lot of experience with (breachers, hoplites, TP Manipulus), and ended up going 0-3, though they were all decently close matches. I wanted to share my experiences, and ask a couple of questions of the fine folks here.
My list:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment
Forge World: Stygies VIII
Servitor Maniple
+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Dominus: Master of Biosplicing
Tech-Priest Enginseer
Match 1: Tau. His list was Longstrike, several hammerheads, several skyrays, and some devil fish, and some infantry. Lost 17-32. Dawn of war deployment, and he castled everything up. Using Stygies, I infiltrated both units of electropriests, the TPM, and some breachers towards his wall of vehicles. He managed to seize on me, wiped the destroyers, a dunecrawler, the fulgurites, and most of the snipers. I made a major mistake by having my robots too far up, and a devilfish consolidated into them. On my turn I didn't have enough heavy firepower to cripple enough vehicles, and with his mobility and ability to ignore LoS with his missiles, he tabled me by turn four.
Match 2: Grey Knights. Voldus, Draigo, 10 Paladins, 3 ven dreads, 3 strike squads, and a few other characters. Search and Destroy deployment. I thought this match might be pretty easy, but the terrain ended up working against me. We used the big L-shaped LoS blocking pieces you see at NOVA, and between Gate of Infinity, Astral Aim, and his deepstriking, my snipers, destroyers, and robots never were able to get a volley off on anything that mattered, and they weren't mobile enough to get into LoS. He was able to plink off small squads to get kill more and I ended up getting very few secondaries due to cagey play on his part. Fulgurites did well, but 10 aren't enough to wipe 10 paladins in one go. I lost 14-21.
Match 3: Tyranids. Trygons, hive tyrants, exocrines, hive guard, venomthropes, and plenty of gribblies. Hammer and Anvil deployment. I also thought this match would go well for me. Due to the board set-up and objectives, he was able to hold the midfield objective and be totally out of LoS to me with his venomthropes and hive guard. I had no problem killing his big stuff, but he was able to hold more by keeping me boxed in, and do better on secondaries. Again, the dune crawlers and breachers didn’t have any good targets, and contributed minimally. Lost 17-27.
This was my first set of games in a while, and I made plenty of mistakes. Here are my reflections on how units performed.
The Good:
1. Both units of electropriests: they got kills, and soaked a lot of firepower, I wanted bigger units of both by the end.
2. Tech priest manipulus: I loved the flexibility he brought, and the +1 to charge and +6” both came in handy throughout the matches. He was decently durable, only dying to dedicated power - railguns/draigo/trygons
The Bad:
1. Breachers: I took breachers on the advice of many in this tread. While they were moderately durable, they contributed virtually nothing. Hitting on 4+ a and wounding most vehicles on 5+ just doesn’t cut it. They also gave up easy Gangbusters points in every match. I would have preferred 20 more vanguard instead.
2. Servitor Maniple: Plasma hitting on 2+ is amazing when it works, but it is very transparent, and vulnerable to counter play (they really only worked in 1/3 matches). They also drain a lot of CPs.
The Ugly:
1. Hoplites: I didn’t have high expectations, but in every game they died before they could charge anything. Not having Dogmas hurts them a lot.
Questions for folks:
1. What am I missing about Breachers? I felt like I needed more specialist tools, not generalist units.
2. Given my experience with cover and LoS, Secutarii Peltasts are intriguing. Anyone have experience with them? I have high hopes for the Skorpius variants.
Thanks!
Suzuteo wrote: @deffreka
I think having extra S7 LOS shooting is useful for baiting out things like Lightning Reflexes. I already spread things out early on with my Knight. These tankettes are the same sort of unit with their diverse shooting profile. Think about it: 9x Heavy Stubbers, 3x Battle Cannons, 3x Mortars for roughly the same points you would expect from a Knight; T7 with 36W to boot.
I don't think these tankettes are tank destroyers. That's what our Las-striders already are.
Fingers crossed for Grinding Advance as well. Creeping Advance? Lol. Question about the Hover Platform rule though: Does it mean we can advance and shoot with -1 to hit? I am confused by the wording a bit, since Heavy weapons cannot shoot at all after advancing.
Actually, I fully intend to use these tanks as screens, just like how I use Crawlers as screens. T7 w/ 12W is quite a bit to chew through. And I bet they have a large physical profile.
@Kanluwen
Awh. Any open-topped?
EDIT: Doesn't seem like Apocalypse has that level of granularity for rules. So we wait.
Pre-order price seems to be $75. Yeesh. If the rules team doesn't slam dunk this, I doubt they're going to see good sales.
I mean its all well and good comparing it to a Knight but you usually pay extra for these type of units that have multipurpose weaponry just because they can do a bit of everything. These things compete in a very crowded Heavy Support section (kind of feels like Orkz where you want a lot of heavies) so your going to have to sacrifice something to get these in and the reality is that these things cost more than an Onager or 2 Balistarii (if we arent be too optimistic about the unit cost which im not) for not really any better shooting vs AV and no better survivability. I for one arent looking for more heavy stubbers in my list as i already have way too much anti infantry and i dont really care for some random hand fulls of str 7 shots as well that cant even hurt a Wave Serpent / Hemlock much let alone another Knight, PBC or any other tough pts efficient armour, we were all expecting a bit more from these things.
If we are just deciding to take these on the Belleros then i dont know what to say, its not exactly mind blowing and the only way for me to even have a Skorpius in my list is going to be trading out an Onager or a few Dragoons which id rather not. Really what they needed to do with this tank is to dedicate it to a certain role like when they described it as a Tank Destroyer. They could of added a weird and whackey rule that when a shot causes damage, enemy vehicles are stunned (like -1 to hit or something) You could slap some Peltasts in a Drill if you wanted some LoS ignoring shots to target pesky hidden infantry! ill hold any further Judgement until is see pts, the full datasheet and if anything else comes out with them (cough codex hopefully cough). Other than that my hype for these vehicles have taken a nose dive haha, and usually im quite hopeful for Admech releases
1. It looks like Grav is back against vehicles: SAT of a 5+...
2. Kataphrons & Kastellans will probably make up most of our lists.
3. Both the Icarus & Neutron have nice profiles - they might suck vs. infantry though.
Another thing hinted in the apoc sheet is that the dunerider will be able to carry secutarii or Forgeworld infantry except for Cawl and Kataphrons, so no magic bunker ability. However, there's no mention of sicarians taking up two slots so who knows, maybe it can carry 10 ruststalkers or something.
Also, no mentions of a fly, grinding advance, or fall back and shoot style of ability. At first glance it appears this is basically a regular tank minus the treads. As for cost, the disintegrator is 8ts, same as an Onager, with the transport being 7, same as a unit of 2 robots. Granted these are essentially power level pts, it seems a bit odd that robots got so much cheaper, so ittis hard to glean exactly how much the transport is. However, this hints that perhaps the tank will be identical in cost to an Onager, I.E. 100-120pts. Maybe.
Another weird thing for apoc is they let you choose forgeworlds, yet Forgeworlds grant no noticable benefit aside from Mars let's you take Cawl. Perhaps it's a sign that books for factions are coming out at some point or perhaps all it's there to do is ensure a guard player isn't running straken and Creed in the same detachment, not sure.
It's also possible that the <Forge World> and whatnot will be something that gets its rules defined in the Apocalypse book and/or datacards that come in the box.
Most interesting part, IMO, of the Disintegrator is that it costs +1 to add the Energy Cannon bumping that version to more than an Onager with any of its loadouts.
Kanluwen wrote: It's also possible that the <Forge World> and whatnot will be something that gets its rules defined in the Apocalypse book and/or datacards that come in the box.
Most interesting part, IMO, of the Disintegrator is that it costs +1 to add the Energy Cannon bumping that version to more than an Onager with any of its loadouts.
I'm holding off opinion until I see the stats on the transport. Either I'll grab 2-3 of them or I'll keep using my drills. That said I'm still all in on the tank as I think it fills quite a few holes the new meta has opened up.
I also wouldn't get to worked up about rules in Apoc vs. rules in 40k. We're already seeing differences and I expect there will be more.
Kanluwen wrote: Did anyone else catch that Emanatus Force Fields in the Apoc Datasheets are back to being a +1 to your saves when they overlap instead of "reroll 1s"?
The apoc datasheets are almost unrecognisable as our army at this point. You cant even compare them. So far my opinion is they've made apocalypse quicker simply by removing t and ap, reducing all dmg and wounds by 80% and stripping all the flavourful rules out. I’ll definitely play at least one game but even our repair ability didnt escape intact and yet more rules are consigned to limited use card abilities. Doesnt excite me at all.
I’m also flabbergasted what im trading my T7 for ontne dunerider...im already trading 2 heavy weapons out for transport capacity, what have i traded for that reduced toughness? The apoc datasheets are exactly the same for both skorpius models, the only different are the weapons and transport capacity.
Kanluwen wrote: Did anyone else catch that Emanatus Force Fields in the Apoc Datasheets are back to being a +1 to your saves when they overlap instead of "reroll 1s"?
The apoc datasheets are almost unrecognisable as our army at this point. You cant even compare them. So far my opinion is they've made apocalypse quicker simply by removing t and ap, reducing all dmg and wounds by 80% and stripping all the flavourful rules out. I’ll definitely play at least one game but even our repair ability didnt escape intact and yet more rules are consigned to limited use card abilities. Doesnt excite me at all.
I’m also flabbergasted what im trading my T7 for ontne dunerider...im already trading 2 heavy weapons out for transport capacity, what have i traded for that reduced toughness? The apoc datasheets are exactly the same for both skorpius models, the only different are the weapons and transport capacity.
An unenclosed compartment. Just like the battlewagon, sentinel, Basilisk, etc. I mean ruleswise we don't get anything out of it but with no firing steps or firing ports it was kind of expected that we couldn't shoot out. Remember GW REALLY values transport capacity on anything that gets it.
I do wish we'd at least had the option to forgo the sponson stubbers to just use the sides as a firing port. It'd be funny if it weren't so sad that we actively would rather shoot our infantry carried weapons out of the transport than some piddly heavy stubbers, although I guess in the lore it wouldn't be the case.
If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.
Anyhow, on a less salty note, here is an iteration on my list. I am going to try to adapt the feedback I've gotten:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1339
HQ - 275 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Warlord, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
It tries to do a lot of things, including:
-Cut one Ballistarii to make room for the Assassin
-Two fatter units of Breachers
-Min unit of Destroyers to pair with Dakkabots
-Replaced the Cohort formation with Elimination Volley
-Make Manipulus the WL to get Monitor and deny Kingslayer
-Made second Battalion Graia for access to Abhor the Witch
Kanluwen wrote: Did anyone else catch that Emanatus Force Fields in the Apoc Datasheets are back to being a +1 to your saves when they overlap instead of "reroll 1s"?
The apoc datasheets are almost unrecognisable as our army at this point. You cant even compare them. So far my opinion is they've made apocalypse quicker simply by removing t and ap, reducing all dmg and wounds by 80% and stripping all the flavourful rules out. I’ll definitely play at least one game but even our repair ability didnt escape intact and yet more rules are consigned to limited use card abilities. Doesnt excite me at all.
Frankly, if you expected the repair ability to let you remove multiple tokens at once? That was silly of you to think so.
The reason I bring up the Emanatus Force Field is that we are seeing previews of unreleased stuff in these Datasheets. The Space Marine Eliminators(Vanguard's Sniper Unit) feature "Las-Fusils" that they do not currently have in the Shadowspear kits. Mechanicus was supposedly going to see a rereleased book, ala CSM, this year as well so I'm wondering if they're overhauling things.
I’m also flabbergasted what im trading my T7 for ontne dunerider...im already trading 2 heavy weapons out for transport capacity, what have i traded for that reduced toughness? The apoc datasheets are exactly the same for both skorpius models, the only different are the weapons and transport capacity.
The difference between them in 40k is the same thing from the Community preview--the only real difference in statlines is that the Disintegrator has +1T for being enclosed.
Your Onager also gets a 5+ save rather than a 6+ like the Dunerider/Disintegrator. in Apoc.
Suzuteo wrote: If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.
All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol
Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.
Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.
Incidentally did anyone notice the sacristan shrine has no drawbacks in apoc? Not even the stupid 4+ roll our tech priests have to do to repair stuff, just pick a knight, repair, refuel or increase it’s movement. Done lol.
Suzuteo wrote: If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.
All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol
Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.
Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.
So a rhino with 8 shots is 74pts. This is a transport that generally will either be -1 to hit (stygies) or have a 2+ save thanks to cover (mars). It carries generally superior infantry than a rhino. Has 12 shots instead of 8 and that starts at 36". It's a pretty superior transport to a rhino without any other items on it. But I'm pretty sure there are other rules on there we haven't seen yet. It'll still be solid if it's 80pts with the stubbers. And that's only because the Rhino is overcosted for what it is.
The tank is insane. It's 36" mortar as noted in the article is fantastic. It is a multitask tank? Sure. It's got 9 shots for visibile infantry, d6 shots for light vehicles/monsters/heavier troops, and a mortar for murdering units out of los. I full expect the tank to sit at 150. Less and it's a steal that'll get adjusted possibly in the Chapter Approved. I think people are seriously sleeping on it. Complaining it's bad at over 130 is nuts. Just think in regards to a single robot. It's got 9+3d3(avg 6)+d6(avg 3.5) so on average it's got as many shots as a robot that has already planted. Same save, same toughness, hits on 3's, is mobile, and has 6 extra wounds. And while all it's shots aren't as good as the robot guns the main ones do more damage. If there isn't an invul that's the only thing that walks back ALL the advantages other than not being in a single squad. People need to breathe a bit. This thing is going to be insane. Assuming it stays below 170. 40pts above an icarus walker is pretty perfect I think.
Suzuteo wrote: If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.
All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol
Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.
Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.
So a rhino with 8 shots is 74pts. This is a transport that generally will either be -1 to hit (stygies) or have a 2+ save thanks to cover (mars). It carries generally superior infantry than a rhino. Has 12 shots instead of 8 and that starts at 36". It's a pretty superior transport to a rhino without any other items on it. But I'm pretty sure there are other rules on there we haven't seen yet. It'll still be solid if it's 80pts with the stubbers. And that's only because the Rhino is overcosted for what it is.
The tank is insane. It's 36" mortar as noted in the article is fantastic. It is a multitask tank? Sure. It's got 9 shots for visibile infantry, d6 shots for light vehicles/monsters/heavier troops, and a mortar for murdering units out of los. I full expect the tank to sit at 150. Less and it's a steal that'll get adjusted possibly in the Chapter Approved. I think people are seriously sleeping on it. Complaining it's bad at over 130 is nuts. Just think in regards to a single robot. It's got 9+3d3(avg 6)+d6(avg 3.5) so on average it's got as many shots as a robot that has already planted. Same save, same toughness, hits on 3's, is mobile, and has 6 extra wounds. And while all it's shots aren't as good as the robot guns the main ones do more damage. If there isn't an invul that's the only thing that walks back ALL the advantages other than not being in a single squad. People need to breathe a bit. This thing is going to be insane. Assuming it stays below 170. 40pts above an icarus walker is pretty perfect I think.
Keep in mind several of the regulars here are playing at the most brutal ITC events you can go to. There are a ton of units/traits/weapons that are perfectly usable in a normal meta but really are pretty bad if you're going all out at a top tier event. Thats where a lot of these "it's trash" comments are coming from, because these folks don't exactly see this new unit wiping the floor with top tier Eldar, IG, Knights, etc. unless it's just stupidly cheap. That doesn't mean if you go to your FLGS and play a friendly or semi competitive game that they're going to suck, so much as you're just going to suffer if someone brings a curbstomp list to the table.
For the average Joe I think this will be a good unit as long as its not stupidly expensive, but I get some folks being leery of it for top tier play. The transport is getting more boring the more they reveal, unless there's some fancy trick they're not telling us. To be a top tier unit for tournament play it really needs to be more than a box to stick guys in (see the drill for a good example) I still see some utility to the tank, even if it's only because the stupid rule of 3 prevents me from running 5-6 Onagers to cover my AAA and AT needs. And that's ignoring the LOS ignoring mortar, that thing is pretty great and GW is going to have to really screw up the costs and rules to make that tank at least not somewhat useful for most Admech lists.
Oh I'm aware that's where it's coming from. But I play in those same events and with admech without knights. I'm looking at it from that perspective and I think people are freaking out about nothing. I know other top tier players are salivating over this thing.
As for the transport if I can get 2 for the price of 1 drill I'm good with that. Especially if they get canticles when that doesnt. But we'll have to wait and see. I just think pricing a tank that does all the things this does a130 or less wont happen and that's ok. Granted if it does holy hell will I enjoy the next 6 months
If the transport costs only 70-80, I will be salty because the thing is $1 per point.
Low points and strong stratagems are the only thing keeping AdMech in the meta right now. Our relics are trash. Our dogmas and WLTs are subpar. Non-squadronable 150 points is a bit much because it doesn't make efficient use of said stratagems.
That being said, the Mortar Tankette does fill a role that desperately needs filling.
Suzuteo wrote: If the transport costs only 70-80, I will be salty because the thing is $1 per point.
Low points and strong stratagems are the only thing keeping AdMech in the meta right now. Our relics are trash. Our dogmas and WLTs are subpar. Non-squadronable 150 points is a bit much because it doesn't make efficient use of said stratagems.
That being said, the Mortar Tankette does fill a role that desperately needs filling.
Meh, I remember when the rhino was a $1 per point. I don't love the price but Old Stuff isn't being bumped yearly anymore and this is the cost. Increase in new models.
I disagree that low points and strong strats are all that's keeping us in the meta. Our stuff, outside of rust stalkers and our electro priests and to a less extent destroyers, is priced well. The icarus onager is actually a little low. Those point costs are a bit high compared to some of the top tier lists but we get a lot more play out of our strats and canticles/forge worlds than most of them do since it affects everything in the book so that levels it out. Our relics actually to me feel better than everyone outside of GSC. The ryza gun, lucius redeploy, pseudogenerator, mask, and phosphoex are all items I like and have used to good effect. The WLT's are limited to 2 that I use regularly (CC one and bigger bubble) but that's most armies. We have 4 good to great dogmas in Mars, Stygies, Lucius, and Graia.
As for the tank at 150 I think it's pretty perfect. We don't know the cost yet but I'll be ok with it at that price. Happier if it's lower and depending on how much more than 150 will see how many get used. The only strat it doesn't get that robots get is the mortal strat but there are other units that can be used on. And not having strats never stopped me from using my icarus crawlers to good effect. I think people are just jumping the gun on this one in rating it so poorly or setting a point limit on it being good or bad. But I recognize it might not fit into certain styles of lists like yours that uses a lot of larger squads to take full advantage of strats.
I'd love to be wrong, but the new tanks looks bleh.
The Tank version, might be okish, nothing too amazing or to write home about.
The transport feels like straight trash to me though. Unless there are some killer things we've not seen all my hopes were built then smashed as we end up with an extra weak rhino with more guns but less toughness. At high price tag. I'm not going to get any until I see how they shake out but I may just get none to protest how weak sauce these rules feel.
I mean if they are going to money grab me at least give me something that feels like it could crush and not something that only feels ok in relation to faction pure builds.
At least the over expensive marine tank has a a best of both worlds weapon, where as we seem to get very modest new weapons. Things people won't go " Man, I wish I had that ! ".
Edit: I guess they spent all the effort on the very good, funny and witty ad for it we all saw. I mean, what are rules eh ?
Indirect fire is still a really, really, really big deal for anyone playing in ITC. There are just some boards and matchups where you feel a bit helpless because your infantry can't contest magic boxes. Well now you can just shoot them and soften them up before assaulting.
We the bad people naming the super duper new transport trash we are the same people over testing all game lists where gw revamp lists that destroy the game. We the hard core bad people the ones shouting for our armies know already that if they make a bad / average unit all will take again an earthshaker or drills etc. We the angry people know that the game has some elements /tools / strategies etc ad mech miss badly.
One major part being the non fly non tough elite or no los combination that makes us the only army ATM in the whole game that cant actually make an effective top tier list without allies. The only one. So if the super fluffy new transport you wanna Joe about is point valued badly we are again on zero result.
We don't shout cause we got 10bad options or better worse than others . We got none and that's should be a serious issue gw answers .
As for the Joe's that don't shout feel free to go into war with pure ad mech trying to do things not possible .
Plz we are really trying to make ad mech pure and stand alone I don't care of broken units or plane lists. What we want are simple options . Not another 150 tank just for los. Synergy buffs options something ...if it cant fly it would again be a serious issue since it definetly can't melee ,must go closer,it's suppose to be a transport...
So no I'm sorry but we definitely play a competitive war game and excuse me if we want at least one option and not again a sell model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.
Anyhow, on a less salty note, here is an iteration on my list. I am going to try to adapt the feedback I've gotten:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1339
HQ - 275 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Warlord, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
It tries to do a lot of things, including:
-Cut one Ballistarii to make room for the Assassin
-Two fatter units of Breachers
-Min unit of Destroyers to pair with Dakkabots
-Replaced the Cohort formation with Elimination Volley
-Make Manipulus the WL to get Monitor and deny Kingslayer
-Made second Battalion Graia for access to Abhor the Witch
Remove a Robot and a Dragoon ad 2 destroyers one balistarii or all destroyers so you benefit better from elimination + use the 5+ vigilus. Try grav !!!! Else you should be fine for pure ad mech
Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote: I played in a local RTT this weekend with ITC missions. I brought a lot of things I didn't have a lot of experience with (breachers, hoplites, TP Manipulus), and ended up going 0-3, though they were all decently close matches. I wanted to share my experiences, and ask a couple of questions of the fine folks here.
My list:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment
Forge World: Stygies VIII
Servitor Maniple
+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Dominus: Master of Biosplicing
Tech-Priest Enginseer
Match 1: Tau. His list was Longstrike, several hammerheads, several skyrays, and some devil fish, and some infantry. Lost 17-32. Dawn of war deployment, and he castled everything up. Using Stygies, I infiltrated both units of electropriests, the TPM, and some breachers towards his wall of vehicles. He managed to seize on me, wiped the destroyers, a dunecrawler, the fulgurites, and most of the snipers. I made a major mistake by having my robots too far up, and a devilfish consolidated into them. On my turn I didn't have enough heavy firepower to cripple enough vehicles, and with his mobility and ability to ignore LoS with his missiles, he tabled me by turn four.
Match 2: Grey Knights. Voldus, Draigo, 10 Paladins, 3 ven dreads, 3 strike squads, and a few other characters. Search and Destroy deployment. I thought this match might be pretty easy, but the terrain ended up working against me. We used the big L-shaped LoS blocking pieces you see at NOVA, and between Gate of Infinity, Astral Aim, and his deepstriking, my snipers, destroyers, and robots never were able to get a volley off on anything that mattered, and they weren't mobile enough to get into LoS. He was able to plink off small squads to get kill more and I ended up getting very few secondaries due to cagey play on his part. Fulgurites did well, but 10 aren't enough to wipe 10 paladins in one go. I lost 14-21.
Match 3: Tyranids. Trygons, hive tyrants, exocrines, hive guard, venomthropes, and plenty of gribblies. Hammer and Anvil deployment. I also thought this match would go well for me. Due to the board set-up and objectives, he was able to hold the midfield objective and be totally out of LoS to me with his venomthropes and hive guard. I had no problem killing his big stuff, but he was able to hold more by keeping me boxed in, and do better on secondaries. Again, the dune crawlers and breachers didn’t have any good targets, and contributed minimally. Lost 17-27.
This was my first set of games in a while, and I made plenty of mistakes. Here are my reflections on how units performed.
The Good:
1. Both units of electropriests: they got kills, and soaked a lot of firepower, I wanted bigger units of both by the end.
2. Tech priest manipulus: I loved the flexibility he brought, and the +1 to charge and +6” both came in handy throughout the matches. He was decently durable, only dying to dedicated power - railguns/draigo/trygons
The Bad:
1. Breachers: I took breachers on the advice of many in this tread. While they were moderately durable, they contributed virtually nothing. Hitting on 4+ a and wounding most vehicles on 5+ just doesn’t cut it. They also gave up easy Gangbusters points in every match. I would have preferred 20 more vanguard instead.
2. Servitor Maniple: Plasma hitting on 2+ is amazing when it works, but it is very transparent, and vulnerable to counter play (they really only worked in 1/3 matches). They also drain a lot of CPs.
The Ugly:
1. Hoplites: I didn’t have high expectations, but in every game they died before they could charge anything. Not having Dogmas hurts them a lot.
Questions for folks:
1. What am I missing about Breachers? I felt like I needed more specialist tools, not generalist units.
2. Given my experience with cover and LoS, Secutarii Peltasts are intriguing. Anyone have experience with them? I have high hopes for the Skorpius variants.
Thanks!
As with most lists ad mech our units work better when they are part of a plan . As you said take 20 more vanguard since your list is spamming cheap troops . If you read here about beachers then you would also read build around them. If you invest a list with 20+ priests then you need to take proper tools for them a) hq to buff them maybe some lucius buffer transport drills to max their performance etc. You can't build 4 plans in one list.
Breachers are a good tough screen that Cawl gives rerolls hits that you spamming 30+ arc shots vs vehicles so you got like 15 of them + you got prime hermeticon warlord trait so they reroo miss in melee then send some cp for aquititin atalcost and get 20 rr melee str 6-14 str hits but most likely 5 models T5 3W 1+ save that will not die while you protect your gun line . After all it's a screen . Their mass samm shots mele toughness makes them better than most units .
Spending points all over units ith no plan has low results . As for suggestions
Decide what you wanna play and e can help .
A) priest spamming
B) skktsrii spamming
C) breachers ???
All in one is makes it average . At least in your format.
Suzuteo wrote: If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.
All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol
Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.
Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.
So a rhino with 8 shots is 74pts. This is a transport that generally will either be -1 to hit (stygies) or have a 2+ save thanks to cover (mars). It carries generally superior infantry than a rhino. Has 12 shots instead of 8 and that starts at 36". It's a pretty superior transport to a rhino without any other items on it. But I'm pretty sure there are other rules on there we haven't seen yet. It'll still be solid if it's 80pts with the stubbers. And that's only because the Rhino is overcosted for what it is.
The tank is insane. It's 36" mortar as noted in the article is fantastic. It is a multitask tank? Sure. It's got 9 shots for visibile infantry, d6 shots for light vehicles/monsters/heavier troops, and a mortar for murdering units out of los. I full expect the tank to sit at 150. Less and it's a steal that'll get adjusted possibly in the Chapter Approved. I think people are seriously sleeping on it. Complaining it's bad at over 130 is nuts. Just think in regards to a single robot. It's got 9+3d3(avg 6)+d6(avg 3.5) so on average it's got as many shots as a robot that has already planted. Same save, same toughness, hits on 3's, is mobile, and has 6 extra wounds. And while all it's shots aren't as good as the robot guns the main ones do more damage. If there isn't an invul that's the only thing that walks back ALL the advantages other than not being in a single squad. People need to breathe a bit. This thing is going to be insane. Assuming it stays below 170. 40pts above an icarus walker is pretty perfect I think.
Its ok if you are looking at this thing in a vacuum, from first glances its not a bad little tank. But when you look past it to the other units that already compete in its role it is quite outclassed. 2 twin lascannon Balistarii, 3 Plasma Destroyers, an Onager with a Neutron Laser (assuming its even in the same pts bracket as the above units)... these are all tried and tested AT options that shine and do their jobs extremely well. So the Ferrumite Cannon will most likely be ditched in favour of the Belleros, its very much like a Predator Destructor. That autocannon is sweet and the heavy bolters provide some cheap chaff clearance... buuuuuuttttttt there is the Predator Annihilator which destroys the same targets the autocannon would normally target for 4 lascannons.... yeah its a more expensive option but it doesnt mess around. And even looking past that to other AT units in the marine book, you dont tend to gravitate towards to Jack of all Trades tank, you specialize each element to do a specific role and it always brings me back to a very good quote from Lion El'Jonson in the 5th ed rule book that is about pushing a certain element to the max so that your opponent cant defend against it.
So now that brings us to the Belleros, and like everyone else, I am preferring this option over the other. It gives us something we lack (if we dont take Guard units). However I still wouldnt call the Tank insane. Ill have everyone know I dont play ITC or ETC, just good old tournaments. But these events still have LOS blocking terrain (quite a lot tbh), so it fills that niche role, but im not looking at the tank and going yeeeeea boiiii with the 3 Heavy Stubbers and the Disruptor Missiles, I could do without them for the role its intended to do. You dont pay for HWT Mortars and go hell yeah with those lasguns, or the same with Wyverns and Basilisks with the Heavy Bolter..... they are secondary weapons used for point defense. If you had the option I bet no one would take them, the same could be said with the Skorpius' secondary weapon systems. I dont know about everyone else but im not really lacking in the anti infantry department! This tank doesnt have the profile to be a main battle tank, if its cruising up its exposing itself to charges, counter fire, smite spam, a cheeky krak grenade up the exhaust pipe.... So that 12" move shouldnt be used to go up the board as it cant take the punches. And once again it will divide itself from the rest of the force and get out of repair range (unless your Enginseers and Dominus are track stars with their nikes on!), So that multipurpose tank that is "insane" will cost for it in pts and on the table top by drawing more attention as it tries to do a bit of everything.
Slap off the hull missiles and I would be whistling a different tune. Get rid of the stubbers and i probably wouldnt miss them all that much. I was expecting more from the tank but its just 4" faster Onager that will most likely cost more and be less impactful. Now I could all be wrong when we see the rules and points and I will point up my hands and take back what ive said when that happens, but from what we know now, I could pretend it didnt even exist haha! The vehicle doesnt affect me much and if I needed it for the Belleros, id probably get HWT Mortars, a Wyvern or a Basilisk sadly, yeah it ruins the whole pure admech thing ive got going on, but we as a codex arent doing great. We are only doing well as they lowered our pts so much (youd never see Kataphrons at all before) and our Skitarii stratagems are pretty dang good, but we still have 1st gen Dogmas (look at Dark Eldar, GSC, Guard) that are very two dimensional, bad Warlord Traits (ever codex has them but ours are like phewww what is going on here!?) and most of our Relics are melee focused! I can count the number of times on my hand how much my Dominus has fought in combat and i can tell you the Red Axe / Adamantium Arm / Etc would of not saved him hahaha! Ive only every used the Pimp Cane as it enhances what a Dominus already does....
All in all, these Tank are meh, could of been better if im honest. Its not something im jumping at the gun to get
BTW im not taking about the Dunerider at all. So far its alright for what it does but we need to know its pts. It needs to be cheaper than a Raider for me to even use it, if its more expensive than a Raider then I have no idea what they were thinking
Suzuteo wrote: If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.
All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol
Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.
Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.
So a rhino with 8 shots is 74pts. This is a transport that generally will either be -1 to hit (stygies) or have a 2+ save thanks to cover (mars). It carries generally superior infantry than a rhino. Has 12 shots instead of 8 and that starts at 36". It's a pretty superior transport to a rhino without any other items on it. But I'm pretty sure there are other rules on there we haven't seen yet. It'll still be solid if it's 80pts with the stubbers. And that's only because the Rhino is overcosted for what it is.
The tank is insane. It's 36" mortar as noted in the article is fantastic. It is a multitask tank? Sure. It's got 9 shots for visibile infantry, d6 shots for light vehicles/monsters/heavier troops, and a mortar for murdering units out of los. I full expect the tank to sit at 150. Less and it's a steal that'll get adjusted possibly in the Chapter Approved. I think people are seriously sleeping on it. Complaining it's bad at over 130 is nuts. Just think in regards to a single robot. It's got 9+3d3(avg 6)+d6(avg 3.5) so on average it's got as many shots as a robot that has already planted. Same save, same toughness, hits on 3's, is mobile, and has 6 extra wounds. And while all it's shots aren't as good as the robot guns the main ones do more damage. If there isn't an invul that's the only thing that walks back ALL the advantages other than not being in a single squad. People need to breathe a bit. This thing is going to be insane. Assuming it stays below 170. 40pts above an icarus walker is pretty perfect I think.
Its ok if you are looking at this thing in a vacuum, from first glances its not a bad little tank. But when you look past it to the other units that already compete in its role it is quite outclassed. 2 twin lascannon Balistarii, 3 Plasma Destroyers, an Onager with a Neutron Laser (assuming its even in the same pts bracket as the above units)... these are all tried and tested AT options that shine and do their jobs extremely well. So the Ferrumite Cannon will most likely be ditched in favour of the Belleros, its very much like a Predator Destructor. That autocannon is sweet and the heavy bolters provide some cheap chaff clearance... buuuuuuttttttt there is the Predator Annihilator which destroys the same targets the autocannon would normally target for 4 lascannons.... yeah its a more expensive option but it doesnt mess around. And even looking past that to other AT units in the marine book, you dont tend to gravitate towards to Jack of all Trades tank, you specialize each element to do a specific role and it always brings me back to a very good quote from Lion El'Jonson in the 5th ed rule book that is about pushing a certain element to the max so that your opponent cant defend against it.
So now that brings us to the Belleros, and like everyone else, I am preferring this option over the other. It gives us something we lack (if we dont take Guard units). However I still wouldnt call the Tank insane. Ill have everyone know I dont play ITC or ETC, just good old tournaments. But these events still have LOS blocking terrain (quite a lot tbh), so it fills that niche role, but im not looking at the tank and going yeeeeea boiiii with the 3 Heavy Stubbers and the Disruptor Missiles, I could do without them for the role its intended to do. You dont pay for HWT Mortars and go hell yeah with those lasguns, or the same with Wyverns and Basilisks with the Heavy Bolter..... they are secondary weapons used for point defense. If you had the option I bet no one would take them, the same could be said with the Skorpius' secondary weapon systems. I dont know about everyone else but im not really lacking in the anti infantry department! This tank doesnt have the profile to be a main battle tank, if its cruising up its exposing itself to charges, counter fire, smite spam, a cheeky krak grenade up the exhaust pipe.... So that 12" move shouldnt be used to go up the board as it cant take the punches. And once again it will divide itself from the rest of the force and get out of repair range (unless your Enginseers and Dominus are track stars with their nikes on!), So that multipurpose tank that is "insane" will cost for it in pts and on the table top by drawing more attention as it tries to do a bit of everything.
Slap off the hull missiles and I would be whistling a different tune. Get rid of the stubbers and i probably wouldnt miss them all that much. I was expecting more from the tank but its just 4" faster Onager that will most likely cost more and be less impactful. Now I could all be wrong when we see the rules and points and I will point up my hands and take back what ive said when that happens, but from what we know now, I could pretend it didnt even exist haha! The vehicle doesnt affect me much and if I needed it for the Belleros, id probably get HWT Mortars, a Wyvern or a Basilisk sadly, yeah it ruins the whole pure admech thing ive got going on, but we as a codex arent doing great. We are only doing well as they lowered our pts so much (youd never see Kataphrons at all before) and our Skitarii stratagems are pretty dang good, but we still have 1st gen Dogmas (look at Dark Eldar, GSC, Guard) that are very two dimensional, bad Warlord Traits (ever codex has them but ours are like phewww what is going on here!?) and most of our Relics are melee focused! I can count the number of times on my hand how much my Dominus has fought in combat and i can tell you the Red Axe / Adamantium Arm / Etc would of not saved him hahaha! Ive only every used the Pimp Cane as it enhances what a Dominus already does....
All in all, these Tank are meh, could of been better if im honest. Its not something im jumping at the gun to get
BTW im not taking about the Dunerider at all. So far its alright for what it does but we need to know its pts. It needs to be cheaper than a Raider for me to even use it, if its more expensive than a Raider then I have no idea what they were thinking
could HAVE, could of doesnt even make sense..
Im also not really happy with the transport, I like the disintegrators look but it costs a lot and doesnt have anything with high impact or funky cool weird rules.
Some good points there, and yes the LoS ignoring energy mortar is about the best part of all this information. The rest feels like it may be so bad I'd be hard pressed to buy it and support an awful unit design. They really should know better how to make a good unit by this time. When I'm still looking with envy at a marine rhino, we got a problem here.
With what we know/expect, the transport looks like a trampoline for a cheeky Stygies Infiltration first turn Fulgurite charge, and not much else. If it truly doesn't have open-top, neither Fly, it has close to no value in pushing for objective with the Obsec (as 12" is not enough when circumnavigating the terrain), nor riding Plasmas/Corpuscarii around for the mobile firebase (as T6 will not hold long enough, especially with the low range of the Infantry, juxtaposed with 12" requirement for Stygies -hit). 70 pts, that's the top I'm willing to pay for the transport, any point above and the kit in this state is a pass for me. I can deload all of the stubbers if that's an option, I couldnt care less for a single dead Marine or 2-3 dead Boyz, if it is a "disembark and forget" type of unit...
It’s a shame, I love my Admech but I’m having so much more fun playing with the guard elements I’ve introduced. I held off from soup for so long and now I’m struggling to get the enthusiasm for mono Admech
I probably need to try a different forgeworld like agripinaa mix up my playstyle a bit
I think an Admech flyer and reworked canticles/ruststalkers would be exactly what we need to be exciting. That’s my wish list
Hulksmash wrote: I'll be here to say told you so like I did with breachers....
I'll bow out now and wait for the release.
Oh i still think Breachers are trash until arc weapons get their old glorious profile back they will sit nicely in my display cabinet next to my 15 Ruststalkers and 20 Electropriests! If they work for you thats great but Breachers are not my thing this edition.
Suzuteo wrote: If the tankettes cost more than 130, then I will probably pass unless they get some sort of Grinding Advance. I see them mostly as anti-GEQ and anti-bikes. So good against Eldar ground game. Being able to move within 12" is actually going to be a big deal as well.
All other units that had a grinding advance in 40k have it as rules on their apoc datasheet. We aint getting jack lol
Atm my outlook is we got a worse rhino and a decent tank as long as the mortar is 48” and the points arent absurd. I’m always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but a dedicate transport exists to transport stuff and protect it’s occupants. There’s no value add on it’s transport ability, thats what it does. That is literally all it needs to do. I feel like i’m ranting. But i just dont get it, who play tested a T6 transport that isnt quick, versatile or sturdy and has no other value and thought, yeah, that seems like it would be fun. Needs to be 70pts or less or they need to give up on rules writing lol. A rhino is 72 points with a storm bolter and this thing has two more wounds but 1 less toughness, which is not equivalent, they’re otherwise the same vehicle.
Ok, i’m done ranting now until i see the full 40k rules, but i just cant fathom the logic.
So a rhino with 8 shots is 74pts. This is a transport that generally will either be -1 to hit (stygies) or have a 2+ save thanks to cover (mars). It carries generally superior infantry than a rhino. Has 12 shots instead of 8 and that starts at 36". It's a pretty superior transport to a rhino without any other items on it. But I'm pretty sure there are other rules on there we haven't seen yet. It'll still be solid if it's 80pts with the stubbers. And that's only because the Rhino is overcosted for what it is.
The tank is insane. It's 36" mortar as noted in the article is fantastic. It is a multitask tank? Sure. It's got 9 shots for visibile infantry, d6 shots for light vehicles/monsters/heavier troops, and a mortar for murdering units out of los. I full expect the tank to sit at 150. Less and it's a steal that'll get adjusted possibly in the Chapter Approved. I think people are seriously sleeping on it. Complaining it's bad at over 130 is nuts. Just think in regards to a single robot. It's got 9+3d3(avg 6)+d6(avg 3.5) so on average it's got as many shots as a robot that has already planted. Same save, same toughness, hits on 3's, is mobile, and has 6 extra wounds. And while all it's shots aren't as good as the robot guns the main ones do more damage. If there isn't an invul that's the only thing that walks back ALL the advantages other than not being in a single squad. People need to breathe a bit. This thing is going to be insane. Assuming it stays below 170. 40pts above an icarus walker is pretty perfect I think.
Its ok if you are looking at this thing in a vacuum, from first glances its not a bad little tank. But when you look past it to the other units that already compete in its role it is quite outclassed. 2 twin lascannon Balistarii, 3 Plasma Destroyers, an Onager with a Neutron Laser (assuming its even in the same pts bracket as the above units)... these are all tried and tested AT options that shine and do their jobs extremely well. So the Ferrumite Cannon will most likely be ditched in favour of the Belleros, its very much like a Predator Destructor. That autocannon is sweet and the heavy bolters provide some cheap chaff clearance... buuuuuuttttttt there is the Predator Annihilator which destroys the same targets the autocannon would normally target for 4 lascannons.... yeah its a more expensive option but it doesnt mess around. And even looking past that to other AT units in the marine book, you dont tend to gravitate towards to Jack of all Trades tank, you specialize each element to do a specific role and it always brings me back to a very good quote from Lion El'Jonson in the 5th ed rule book that is about pushing a certain element to the max so that your opponent cant defend against it.
So now that brings us to the Belleros, and like everyone else, I am preferring this option over the other. It gives us something we lack (if we dont take Guard units). However I still wouldnt call the Tank insane. Ill have everyone know I dont play ITC or ETC, just good old tournaments. But these events still have LOS blocking terrain (quite a lot tbh), so it fills that niche role, but im not looking at the tank and going yeeeeea boiiii with the 3 Heavy Stubbers and the Disruptor Missiles, I could do without them for the role its intended to do. You dont pay for HWT Mortars and go hell yeah with those lasguns, or the same with Wyverns and Basilisks with the Heavy Bolter..... they are secondary weapons used for point defense. If you had the option I bet no one would take them, the same could be said with the Skorpius' secondary weapon systems. I dont know about everyone else but im not really lacking in the anti infantry department! This tank doesnt have the profile to be a main battle tank, if its cruising up its exposing itself to charges, counter fire, smite spam, a cheeky krak grenade up the exhaust pipe.... So that 12" move shouldnt be used to go up the board as it cant take the punches. And once again it will divide itself from the rest of the force and get out of repair range (unless your Enginseers and Dominus are track stars with their nikes on!), So that multipurpose tank that is "insane" will cost for it in pts and on the table top by drawing more attention as it tries to do a bit of everything.
Slap off the hull missiles and I would be whistling a different tune. Get rid of the stubbers and i probably wouldnt miss them all that much. I was expecting more from the tank but its just 4" faster Onager that will most likely cost more and be less impactful. Now I could all be wrong when we see the rules and points and I will point up my hands and take back what ive said when that happens, but from what we know now, I could pretend it didnt even exist haha! The vehicle doesnt affect me much and if I needed it for the Belleros, id probably get HWT Mortars, a Wyvern or a Basilisk sadly, yeah it ruins the whole pure admech thing ive got going on, but we as a codex arent doing great. We are only doing well as they lowered our pts so much (youd never see Kataphrons at all before) and our Skitarii stratagems are pretty dang good, but we still have 1st gen Dogmas (look at Dark Eldar, GSC, Guard) that are very two dimensional, bad Warlord Traits (ever codex has them but ours are like phewww what is going on here!?) and most of our Relics are melee focused! I can count the number of times on my hand how much my Dominus has fought in combat and i can tell you the Red Axe / Adamantium Arm / Etc would of not saved him hahaha! Ive only every used the Pimp Cane as it enhances what a Dominus already does....
All in all, these Tank are meh, could of been better if im honest. Its not something im jumping at the gun to get
BTW im not taking about the Dunerider at all. So far its alright for what it does but we need to know its pts. It needs to be cheaper than a Raider for me to even use it, if its more expensive than a Raider then I have no idea what they were thinking
could HAVE, could of doesnt even make sense..
Im also not really happy with the transport, I like the disintegrators look but it costs a lot and doesnt have anything with high impact or funky cool weird rules.
It depends where about's you are from, around where I am from and towns like Stoke and Alsager people say "Could of". Its dialect, it changes wildly from region to region just like with Geordies, they pretty much speak in the 3rd person.
It’s not really dialect (it’s not specific to any dialectal region, it appears everywhere) so much as it is a very common mistake. However, language very frequently evolves by mistakes becoming so common that they become accepted and eventually the more common (and so correct) usage, so... meh. “Could of” is a very likely candidate for eventually replacing “could’ve” (which is where the mistake originates, rather than “could have”).
Anyway. If that transport is around 100 or less I’m happy. I’ve been wanting more mechanised admech (go figure) without spamming a ton of the same two or three datasheets, so this is grand.
We the bad people naming the super duper new transport trash we are the same people over testing all game lists where gw revamp lists that destroy the game. We the hard core bad people the ones shouting for our armies know already that if they make a bad / average unit all will take again an earthshaker or drills etc. We the angry people know that the game has some elements /tools / strategies etc ad mech miss badly.
One major part being the non fly non tough elite or no los combination that makes us the only army ATM in the whole game that cant actually make an effective top tier list without allies. The only one. So if the super fluffy new transport you wanna Joe about is point valued badly we are again on zero result.
We don't shout cause we got 10bad options or better worse than others . We got none and that's should be a serious issue gw answers .
As for the Joe's that don't shout feel free to go into war with pure ad mech trying to do things not possible .
Plz we are really trying to make ad mech pure and stand alone I don't care of broken units or plane lists. What we want are simple options . Not another 150 tank just for los. Synergy buffs options something ...if it cant fly it would again be a serious issue since it definetly can't melee ,must go closer,it's suppose to be a transport...
So no I'm sorry but we definitely play a competitive war game and excuse me if we want at least one option and not again a sell model.
You're really missing the point of what I said. I understand English isn't your first language so it's no big deal.
All I'm trying to say is that if this thing looks as rough as it does in some areas (like we're potentially paying twice as much cash for what is essentially a rhino kit in the transport) the average player still probably won't notice or care. You can make a ton of stuff work in a more casual meta if you put your mind to it. Hell I can make Metalica work and still have a very high win rate in my area, and that trait is GARBAGE.
I was trying to agree with you if that makes sense. That all of the complaints we're seeing are people who are taking Admech into the nastiest areas where the weaknesses this thing probably has can't be ignored. And if it's stupid cheap ptswise, then that still doesn't excuse the fact this thing costs a ridiculous $75.
That's kind of where I am on the transport version. I will probably buy one to run as a mortar tank; but I already have one drill, and unless something as yet to be released blows me away, I'd rather buy a second drill over two Higgins boats.
We the bad people naming the super duper new transport trash we are the same people over testing all game lists where gw revamp lists that destroy the game. We the hard core bad people the ones shouting for our armies know already that if they make a bad / average unit all will take again an earthshaker or drills etc. We the angry people know that the game has some elements /tools / strategies etc ad mech miss badly.
One major part being the non fly non tough elite or no los combination that makes us the only army ATM in the whole game that cant actually make an effective top tier list without allies. The only one. So if the super fluffy new transport you wanna Joe about is point valued badly we are again on zero result.
We don't shout cause we got 10bad options or better worse than others . We got none and that's should be a serious issue gw answers .
As for the Joe's that don't shout feel free to go into war with pure ad mech trying to do things not possible .
Plz we are really trying to make ad mech pure and stand alone I don't care of broken units or plane lists. What we want are simple options . Not another 150 tank just for los. Synergy buffs options something ...if it cant fly it would again be a serious issue since it definetly can't melee ,must go closer,it's suppose to be a transport...
So no I'm sorry but we definitely play a competitive war game and excuse me if we want at least one option and not again a sell model.
You're really missing the point of what I said. I understand English isn't your first language so it's no big deal.
All I'm trying to say is that if this thing looks as rough as it does in some areas (like we're potentially paying twice as much cash for what is essentially a rhino kit in the transport) the average player still probably won't notice or care. You can make a ton of stuff work in a more casual meta if you put your mind to it. Hell I can make Metalica work and still have a very high win rate in my area, and that trait is GARBAGE.
I was trying to agree with you if that makes sense. That all of the complaints we're seeing are people who are taking Admech into the nastiest areas where the weaknesses this thing probably has can't be ignored. And if it's stupid cheap ptswise, then that still doesn't excuse the fact this thing costs a ridiculous $75.
Agree.
Besides all rules etc the fact that it costs 75 is extremely bad. And i see lot of people already taking it ??? bad rules bad price and still i dont get it you dont want the best for you you settle with average and overscost price?
We the bad people naming the super duper new transport trash we are the same people over testing all game lists where gw revamp lists that destroy the game. We the hard core bad people the ones shouting for our armies know already that if they make a bad / average unit all will take again an earthshaker or drills etc. We the angry people know that the game has some elements /tools / strategies etc ad mech miss badly.
One major part being the non fly non tough elite or no los combination that makes us the only army ATM in the whole game that cant actually make an effective top tier list without allies. The only one. So if the super fluffy new transport you wanna Joe about is point valued badly we are again on zero result.
We don't shout cause we got 10bad options or better worse than others . We got none and that's should be a serious issue gw answers .
As for the Joe's that don't shout feel free to go into war with pure ad mech trying to do things not possible .
Plz we are really trying to make ad mech pure and stand alone I don't care of broken units or plane lists. What we want are simple options . Not another 150 tank just for los. Synergy buffs options something ...if it cant fly it would again be a serious issue since it definetly can't melee ,must go closer,it's suppose to be a transport...
So no I'm sorry but we definitely play a competitive war game and excuse me if we want at least one option and not again a sell model.
You're really missing the point of what I said. I understand English isn't your first language so it's no big deal.
All I'm trying to say is that if this thing looks as rough as it does in some areas (like we're potentially paying twice as much cash for what is essentially a rhino kit in the transport) the average player still probably won't notice or care. You can make a ton of stuff work in a more casual meta if you put your mind to it. Hell I can make Metalica work and still have a very high win rate in my area, and that trait is GARBAGE.
I was trying to agree with you if that makes sense. That all of the complaints we're seeing are people who are taking Admech into the nastiest areas where the weaknesses this thing probably has can't be ignored. And if it's stupid cheap ptswise, then that still doesn't excuse the fact this thing costs a ridiculous $75.
Agree.
Besides all rules etc the fact that it costs 75 is extremely bad. And i see lot of people already taking it ??? bad rules bad price and still i dont get it you dont want the best for you you settle with average and overscost price?
Hey Yoda, I would appreciate a reduction in the hyperbole in regards to the rules on the vehicle or admech in general. Believe it or not yours and your group think aren't the only people taking lists to an extreme. Difference is some of us dont rely on pure numbers. We build lists to function within themselves and a framework where pure numbers dont live. If everything I use was as bad as you claimed I'd have to be a genius to do as well ad I do. And I'm no genius
At $75 on the price I agree if you're buying as a transport. I'm ok with it as a tank price. It's just a pity it affected the cost for transports which are normally in the 40-50 range.
We the bad people naming the super duper new transport trash we are the same people over testing all game lists where gw revamp lists that destroy the game. We the hard core bad people the ones shouting for our armies know already that if they make a bad / average unit all will take again an earthshaker or drills etc. We the angry people know that the game has some elements /tools / strategies etc ad mech miss badly.
One major part being the non fly non tough elite or no los combination that makes us the only army ATM in the whole game that cant actually make an effective top tier list without allies. The only one. So if the super fluffy new transport you wanna Joe about is point valued badly we are again on zero result.
We don't shout cause we got 10bad options or better worse than others . We got none and that's should be a serious issue gw answers .
As for the Joe's that don't shout feel free to go into war with pure ad mech trying to do things not possible .
Plz we are really trying to make ad mech pure and stand alone I don't care of broken units or plane lists. What we want are simple options . Not another 150 tank just for los. Synergy buffs options something ...if it cant fly it would again be a serious issue since it definetly can't melee ,must go closer,it's suppose to be a transport...
So no I'm sorry but we definitely play a competitive war game and excuse me if we want at least one option and not again a sell model.
You're really missing the point of what I said. I understand English isn't your first language so it's no big deal.
All I'm trying to say is that if this thing looks as rough as it does in some areas (like we're potentially paying twice as much cash for what is essentially a rhino kit in the transport) the average player still probably won't notice or care. You can make a ton of stuff work in a more casual meta if you put your mind to it. Hell I can make Metalica work and still have a very high win rate in my area, and that trait is GARBAGE.
I was trying to agree with you if that makes sense. That all of the complaints we're seeing are people who are taking Admech into the nastiest areas where the weaknesses this thing probably has can't be ignored. And if it's stupid cheap ptswise, then that still doesn't excuse the fact this thing costs a ridiculous $75.
Agree.
Besides all rules etc the fact that it costs 75 is extremely bad. And i see lot of people already taking it ??? bad rules bad price and still i dont get it you dont want the best for you you settle with average and overscost price?
Main reasoning I can see would be
1. You like the look of it. I do, at least at first glance, like the look of both variants and if nothing else do want one to paint. With a 20% discount from somewhere I can stomach the price for a painting project. That is a main part of this hobby after all, running what looks cool and what you like to paint, tactics be damned
2. You play pure admech, for whatever reason (fluff, ITC, really hate every other army, whatever) and so it doesn't matter how much it may suck, this is the hand you've been dealt and by the Omnissiah you're going to make the best of it. Which I get because I play Metalica, you don't play that trait if you have any sanity and want to win. So while I have like 10k points of guard, with Manticores, Basilisks, and Mortars coming out of my ears, I'd still rather run a couple of these things for indirect because they're Admech and I feel like less of a jerk running them in my casual meta. Others like Sutzeo make a valid point in that with ITC it's really his only option for indirect fire. So whether its the best in the game is irrelevant to him, that's the indirect he has access to and it's better than not having it at all.
Until we see the full profile there's not a whole lot else we can discuss as far as I can tell. A mere 30-40pts could take this thing anywhere from a must take to almost useless. With the hints we have from Apocalypse datasheet, its looking like it'll need to be pretty cheap to justify it's stats, but we already know certain things aren't stated. For example, the move and shoot without penalty rule isn't on the Apoc datasheet, so perhaps some other ability is hiding in the main datasheet we're not aware of. All I can really tell is its almost certainly under 150pts. Every single unit I can think of in the 150 range costs around 10PL, and this thing costs 8. That puts it in Basilisk, Onager, Manticore, or Valkyrie (all units that cost 7-8 PL in apoc) and all of these units hover in the 110-130pts bracket. Until we know what else it does, there's no telling if that's a steal or too high.
I feel like Admech, once again, has been really gutted.
I like the rule to reroll saves of 1 and the new Robot protocols.
HOWEVER.
90% of the rules are gone in comparison to about 50% of other factions.
Skitarii have no special weapons.
Vanguards arent better than rangers in melee.
Cawl and Manipulus lost tentacles
Manipulus is suddenly worse in melee than enginseer and a dominus
Servitors stay at their LD4
Repairing is on a 4+ that is not even buffed with servitors
Priests cant repair biological units anymore.
Phorphor serpenta, a little assault 1 gun, is now suddenly heavy?
Some Weapon options are all pretty useless, as you can only take others if you want it to be worse at any stat
At least were not breaking $100.00 for our transport tank. I dont think I could ever justify paying that much. 81 with tax for my area is pushing it, but at least its a dual kit. 100 though for that marine tank, i cant do it.
ultimentra wrote: At least were not breaking $100.00 for our transport tank. I dont think I could ever justify paying that much. 81 with tax for my area is pushing it, but at least its a dual kit. 100 though for that marine tank, i cant do it.
Ill be getting one as I like the tank design.
Ill either magnetize it or, which I prefer Ill do a conversion of the Boat using the leftover 2 little wallbits, the ramp and little turret, 2nd servitor will be my lefter over Scout marine which I converted to servitors. I just dont know what to use as a base yet that has the same footprint, or a Rhino which Ill increase in size with the Roof, as we dont need it. Any thoughts or ideas what to use for that, that is also fairly cheap in comparison to just buying 2 boxes? Maybe Ill also increase the rhino size with Sprues glued to each other.
i just hope the tank "lid" is easily magnetized.
For that price, going to be really annoyed if i have to heavily convert the thing to get it to be swappable between the two.
Vineheart01 wrote: i just hope the tank "lid" is easily magnetized.
For that price, going to be really annoyed if i have to heavily convert the thing to get it to be swappable between the two.
From the photos released so far, it's not only the lid but entire front panel to switch between versions. Doable I believe, but might be a bit annoying to magnetise.
Vineheart01 wrote: i just hope the tank "lid" is easily magnetized.
For that price, going to be really annoyed if i have to heavily convert the thing to get it to be swappable between the two.
From the photos released so far, it's not only the lid but entire front panel to switch between versions. Doable I believe, but might be a bit annoying to magnetise.
Cut the ladder, magnetize the turrets and front iron pipes.
2nd Roof and Front can just be glued and layed on top I believe, no need for a magnet.
Vineheart01 wrote: i just hope the tank "lid" is easily magnetized.
For that price, going to be really annoyed if i have to heavily convert the thing to get it to be swappable between the two.
From the photos released so far, it's not only the lid but entire front panel to switch between versions. Doable I believe, but might be a bit annoying to magnetise.
Cut the ladder, magnetize the turrets and front iron pipes.
2nd Roof and Front can just be glued and layed on top I believe, no need for a magnet.
Yeah, but take notice - these triangular vertical shapes where rockets are placed, are interchangable as well. And they have to (should) fit tightly to the angular horizontal panels with lights. I think that will be the most annoying part - to fit it well enough to not leave a disgusting gap between.
Depends on the cost of the box and its invuln, I think. And hoplites lacking ObSec does make their job harder if them and the Dragoons are the only mobile force while everything else sits back and shoots - basically everything is objective-based these days.
If there is a plan, it's to use the Mortar Tankettes as we would Mortars.
1) Infiltrate Dragoons or Fulgurites in Drills, clear screens with Mortars, move and charge.
2) Clear infantry rules-shielding character Dreadnoughts, kill Dreadnoughts.
3) Park inside ruins, shoot Genestealers/Gaunts/etc. while forcing them to stay outside said ruins.
Octovol wrote: I wouldn't worry about magnetizing the missile panels, you can always magnetize a separate missile launcher somewhere else on the model.
From the looks of it - you have to. Angular side panels won't fit with top lid and the front panel/bumper otherwise. Moreover the ramp is going to be fitted into slots, and it is probably moving part. Unless you are ready to give up the whole Higgins boat look (the major selling point of the kit ;P ).
My guess is that both the Dunerider and the Disintegrator's missile launcher have pegs on the bottom that go into circular slots. They have side panels that attach to the chassis further up as well. The difference being that the ramp has two side panels that can be mounted separately, allowing it to pivot independently, whereas the missile launcher is one big piece.
The front of the missile launcher also seems to be set lower than the ramp's side panels. A change that makes them totally incompatible.
I think the solution then is to glue the ramp to the side panels and mount magnets at the bottom where the circular slots are. You swap out the entire front and top of both setups. The ladder in the back of the transport also has to go.
The transport's turret also needs to be magnetized.
Been reading more novels that have Ad Mec and it got me jonesing to build a kill team, then an army! I had some questions I was hoping for some help with.
I bought a skitarri box to start me off with and was wondering if anyone has recommendations on weapon load out for Skitarri? Also wasnt sure if I should build 5 rangers and 5 Vanguard for some variety for killteam?
I was thinking of buying the start collecting box then maybe try and get my hands on the AM half of forgebane, cause titans are sexy. Otherwise maybe a box of the kastellans after the start collecting.
Is that a reasonable base to start with? Any recommendations for further purchases and what loadouts I should go with (or to avoid)?
The more important problem lies in the actual shape of the front. Rider has a square front while Desintegrator is trapezoid - meaning the "lid" wont fit to Rider's vertical panels while the ramp cannot fit into missiles. The lid, ramp and vertical panels has to be magnetised in corresponding sets.
yeah i missed that front part being different between the two before.
Thats going to be annoying. I despise magnetizing thin pieces because generally you cant use a big enough magnet to keep them on there solidly.
honestly the design almost feels like GW didnt want us to be able to easily magnetize. compare it to any other vehicle in our arsenal and its the only one that is actually going to be complicated to properly magnetize
Been reading more novels that have Ad Mec and it got me jonesing to build a kill team, then an army! I had some questions I was hoping for some help with.
I bought a skitarri box to start me off with and was wondering if anyone has recommendations on weapon load out for Skitarri? Also wasnt sure if I should build 5 rangers and 5 Vanguard for some variety for killteam?
I was thinking of buying the start collecting box then maybe try and get my hands on the AM half of forgebane, cause titans are sexy. Otherwise maybe a box of the kastellans after the start collecting.
Is that a reasonable base to start with? Any recommendations for further purchases and what loadouts I should go with (or to avoid)?
Thanks all!
Strig
Considering how the special weapons synergize in 40k, you'll likely want a mix of rangers and vanguard for killteam. Snipers and Arc rifles are better suited for rangers, plasma are great on vanguard. Just plan ahead so that you're building up to squads of five for both. Typically, in 40k rangers are used as cheap battalion filler or maxing sniper rifles (2 per 5 rangers). Vanguards are used if you need more mobility; plain or with plasma.
The Start Collecting kit is a good purchase; Forgebane is good if you're also starting a knight army but Warglaives on their own, aren't a good addition to an AdMech army.
Been reading more novels that have Ad Mec and it got me jonesing to build a kill team, then an army! I had some questions I was hoping for some help with.
I bought a skitarri box to start me off with and was wondering if anyone has recommendations on weapon load out for Skitarri? Also wasnt sure if I should build 5 rangers and 5 Vanguard for some variety for killteam?
I was thinking of buying the start collecting box then maybe try and get my hands on the AM half of forgebane, cause titans are sexy. Otherwise maybe a box of the kastellans after the start collecting.
Is that a reasonable base to start with? Any recommendations for further purchases and what loadouts I should go with (or to avoid)?
Thanks all!
Strig
Considering how the special weapons synergize in 40k, you'll likely want a mix of rangers and vanguard for killteam. Snipers and Arc rifles are better suited for rangers, plasma are great on vanguard. Just plan ahead so that you're building up to squads of five for both. Typically, in 40k rangers are used as cheap battalion filler or maxing sniper rifles (2 per 5 rangers). Vanguards are used if you need more mobility; plain or with plasma.
The Start Collecting kit is a good purchase; Forgebane is good if you're also starting a knight army but Warglaives on their own, aren't a good addition to an AdMech army.
if youre starting out, 2 start collecting will give you a good core for any list. Dunecrawlers with icarus array/neutron laser are an amazing tank. skitarii are versatile troops. the only bad thing about this is that you would get a second dominus. This is sadly a theme with our boxed sets, most of them include a dominus and you rarely want more than one in your list.
I'd say 2 start collecting + 1 enginseer is a great start. From there you can decide if you want to go the Kastellan route, the Kataphron route or the Dragoon / Fulgurite route. You can mix and match but those are 3 of the main strategies you'll likely see.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i missed that front part being different between the two before.
Thats going to be annoying. I despise magnetizing thin pieces because generally you cant use a big enough magnet to keep them on there solidly.
Thick but narrow magnets should do the job. 2x2 or 2x3mm columns should hold the pieces in place firmly.
VladimirHerzog wrote: honestly the design almost feels like GW didnt want us to be able to easily magnetize. compare it to any other vehicle in our arsenal and its the only one that is actually going to be complicated to properly magnetize
Yeah, it's definitely not a coincidence, especially considering the price of the kit.
For all the good things Rountree and New-GW have done (especially the start collecting boxes, though they did raise prices of them recently), I really dislike how they are increasingly releasing VERY expensive plastic kits with extremely or even non-existent customization. This is most blatant and shocking in the case of the recent single-pose plastic characters (€25+ even though possible justifications for those prices are tenuous at best considering how often they get tossed into Start Collecting boxes like if they were worth a fraction or even next to nothing considering the savings the boxes already have even without them [cough, Dominus, cough, there is a reason you can pick 'em up for like €5 on ebay]), but extreme price increases for multi-unit kits (the best example probably being Fire Warriors, which essentially doubled in price while having two less models per kit) where it is increasingly hard to get anything close to the value of the multi-unit $$ tax because they are designed in ways that strongly discourage building them as "two units in one", to the the point of making it extremely hard to even pull of for people without advanced experience and skill in kit assembly because you have to recut, magnetize, fill and plasticard so much to even pull it off and make it look anything close to how the unit looks officially. Which of couse encourages people to shell out another $75 to get both the options of a Disintigrator and Dunerider and gives the customer another reason to buy the full-price multi-kit again.
If you compare that to Forgeworld's recent move to e.g intentionally include holes for magnets in their models to make changing unit variant parts much easier and painless, it's pretty hard to not raise eyebrows.
I guess I will give a benefit of a doubt here to GW - both units look rad the way they are imagined. The transport cannot absolutely have the narrowing, trapezoid, front - it would look weird as hell. The tank on the other hand, with a square cut, is not something I would dig. Although I'll leave the railings out - they only destroy the very cool form of the bricky body.
TBH I think we'd easily get away with just magnetizing the two turrets to show the differences between dunerider and disintegrator. None of the transports have appropriately large enough doors for things to fit through them anyway.
Just build as disintegrator and swap the turrets to show it's a dunerider. The missile ports could just as easily be for show or they could be lights or something. We all thought they were some dystopian quasi-futuristic lights or something until they point them out lol
What I might try and do is hinge the front of the distintigrator at the top so that it opens upwards. Would require a lot of cutting etc, but I think it might look pretty cool.
Been reading more novels that have Ad Mec and it got me jonesing to build a kill team, then an army! I had some questions I was hoping for some help with.
I bought a skitarri box to start me off with and was wondering if anyone has recommendations on weapon load out for Skitarri? Also wasnt sure if I should build 5 rangers and 5 Vanguard for some variety for killteam?
I was thinking of buying the start collecting box then maybe try and get my hands on the AM half of forgebane, cause titans are sexy. Otherwise maybe a box of the kastellans after the start collecting.
Is that a reasonable base to start with? Any recommendations for further purchases and what loadouts I should go with (or to avoid)?
Thanks all!
Strig
Considering how the special weapons synergize in 40k, you'll likely want a mix of rangers and vanguard for killteam. Snipers and Arc rifles are better suited for rangers, plasma are great on vanguard. Just plan ahead so that you're building up to squads of five for both. Typically, in 40k rangers are used as cheap battalion filler or maxing sniper rifles (2 per 5 rangers). Vanguards are used if you need more mobility; plain or with plasma.
The Start Collecting kit is a good purchase; Forgebane is good if you're also starting a knight army but Warglaives on their own, aren't a good addition to an AdMech army.
Thanks for that!
When you say Vanguard have more mobility, do you mean because of their assault gun so they can move an fire? Regarding Knights etc. I am so not up to speed on them! I think it would be cool to have one of the bigger ones or maybe 2 medium sized ones surrounded by Ad mec Support. They are specific to Ad mec right? So I would not be doing a "soup" list by incorporating any Knight listed in our book?
Been reading more novels that have Ad Mec and it got me jonesing to build a kill team, then an army! I had some questions I was hoping for some help with.
I bought a skitarri box to start me off with and was wondering if anyone has recommendations on weapon load out for Skitarri? Also wasnt sure if I should build 5 rangers and 5 Vanguard for some variety for killteam?
I was thinking of buying the start collecting box then maybe try and get my hands on the AM half of forgebane, cause titans are sexy. Otherwise maybe a box of the kastellans after the start collecting.
Is that a reasonable base to start with? Any recommendations for further purchases and what loadouts I should go with (or to avoid)?
Thanks all!
Strig
Considering how the special weapons synergize in 40k, you'll likely want a mix of rangers and vanguard for killteam. Snipers and Arc rifles are better suited for rangers, plasma are great on vanguard. Just plan ahead so that you're building up to squads of five for both. Typically, in 40k rangers are used as cheap battalion filler or maxing sniper rifles (2 per 5 rangers). Vanguards are used if you need more mobility; plain or with plasma.
The Start Collecting kit is a good purchase; Forgebane is good if you're also starting a knight army but Warglaives on their own, aren't a good addition to an AdMech army.
Thanks for that!
When you say Vanguard have more mobility, do you mean because of their assault gun so they can move an fire? Regarding Knights etc. I am so not up to speed on them! I think it would be cool to have one of the bigger ones or maybe 2 medium sized ones surrounded by Ad mec Support. They are specific to Ad mec right? So I would not be doing a "soup" list by incorporating any Knight listed in our book?
yeah, vanguards will advance for most of the game and still dish out damage, they are also made to be good melee support units since they reduce the thoughness of enemies by 1 when in combat. making your dedicated melee units like dragoons/fulgurites/infiltrators way better at their job.
the knights in our codex arent actually considered to be in our codex ever since imperial knights got an actual codex release. It would be considered soup. The most popular way ive seen people running knights with admech is to have either a single shooty knight (crusader), a single melee knights(gallant) or a medium knight with 2 armigers to get Household traits and CPs from that detachment. I personally prefer pure admech but its my personal preference.
Been reading more novels that have Ad Mec and it got me jonesing to build a kill team, then an army! I had some questions I was hoping for some help with.
I bought a skitarri box to start me off with and was wondering if anyone has recommendations on weapon load out for Skitarri? Also wasnt sure if I should build 5 rangers and 5 Vanguard for some variety for killteam?
I was thinking of buying the start collecting box then maybe try and get my hands on the AM half of forgebane, cause titans are sexy. Otherwise maybe a box of the kastellans after the start collecting.
Is that a reasonable base to start with? Any recommendations for further purchases and what loadouts I should go with (or to avoid)?
Thanks all!
Strig
Considering how the special weapons synergize in 40k, you'll likely want a mix of rangers and vanguard for killteam. Snipers and Arc rifles are better suited for rangers, plasma are great on vanguard. Just plan ahead so that you're building up to squads of five for both. Typically, in 40k rangers are used as cheap battalion filler or maxing sniper rifles (2 per 5 rangers). Vanguards are used if you need more mobility; plain or with plasma.
The Start Collecting kit is a good purchase; Forgebane is good if you're also starting a knight army but Warglaives on their own, aren't a good addition to an AdMech army.
if youre starting out, 2 start collecting will give you a good core for any list. Dunecrawlers with icarus array/neutron laser are an amazing tank. skitarii are versatile troops. the only bad thing about this is that you would get a second dominus. This is sadly a theme with our boxed sets, most of them include a dominus and you rarely want more than one in your list.
I'd say 2 start collecting + 1 enginseer is a great start. From there you can decide if you want to go the Kastellan route, the Kataphron route or the Dragoon / Fulgurite route. You can mix and match but those are 3 of the main strategies you'll likely see.
Thank you for the feedback!
Dunecrawler with an icarus array/neutron laser - is that build kind of like the Fire Prism where you would want to take 3 of them with the same load out?
I dig the look of the robots, so might start with them, after 2 "start collecting" and an engineer! What's typical for HQ amounts in like a 1000 pt or 1500 pt list?
Dunecrawler with an icarus array/neutron laser - is that build kind of like the Fire Prism where you would want to take 3 of them with the same load out?
I dig the look of the robots, so might start with them, after 2 "start collecting" and an engineer! What's typical for HQ amounts in like a 1000 pt or 1500 pt list?
I always run double battalion unless im in a sub-1000pts game. Because of enginseers being so cheap, our battalion can be extremely cheap while still giving us good utility. Enginseers are great at staying behind your army to deny deepstrike. They can always move up to the injured vehicles to repari them. I usually run 1 Dominus, 1 Manipulus and 2 Enginseer to fill the minimum requirements. I might bring cawl if im playing mars but then i'll drop the dominus since their auras dont stack.
For dunecrawlers i like having a single neutron laser and then icarus array on the rest. people fear the neutron laser and will usually focus it first, little do they know that the icarus is the one that will actually deal damage to multiple types of units (tanks, hordes, marines, etc.). I would never run a single onager, having two of them near eachoter lets you rerolls of 1 on the invuln save, this is great to help you save that one lascannon shot that could destroy it.
I am still holding out that there is a special rule for the ramp. It would be so disappointing if it's just a box. Not even a flying or open-topped box.
Suzuteo wrote: I am still holding out that there is a special rule for the ramp. It would be so disappointing if it's just a box. Not even a flying or open-topped box.
Have you seen the post they made on facebook about the inspiration for the style? A commenter asked if it was open-topped and the Warhammer account responded that yes it was, when they specified "open-topped" as in , can shoot out of it, they remained silent. It's sad that the facebook manager doesnt actually play 40k and that they can misdirect people like this (assuming it isnt open topped because of the apocalypse datasheet)
@vladamirherzog under ITC rules you can take a single mechanicus knight in a super heavy aucilary detatchment and still be considered mono mechanicus.
@ strig neuton onagers are effective vs tanks but have high variance so takeing 3 gives you more consistancy. Icarus onagers are better vs flyers and can be ok as a 1 or a 2. Really its an arbitary choice though based on what you think you are up against and the rest of your list. Personnally I favour 3 neutronagers
U02dah4 wrote: @vladamirherzog under ITC rules you can take a single mechanicus knight in a super heavy aucilary detatchment and still be considered mono mechanicus.
@ strig neuton onagers are effective vs tanks but have high variance so takeing 3 gives you more consistancy. Icarus onagers are better vs flyers and can be ok as a 1 or a 2. Really its an arbitary choice though based on what you think you are up against and the rest of your list. Personnally I favour 3 neutronagers
since they are new i was only refering to the GW rules, ignoring ITC since its additionnal info that might not be relevant to them.
Suzuteo wrote: I am still holding out that there is a special rule for the ramp. It would be so disappointing if it's just a box. Not even a flying or open-topped box.
Disembarking after moving with it would be really nice.
Suzuteo wrote: I am still holding out that there is a special rule for the ramp. It would be so disappointing if it's just a box. Not even a flying or open-topped box.
Have you seen the post they made on facebook about the inspiration for the style? A commenter asked if it was open-topped and the Warhammer account responded that yes it was, when they specified "open-topped" as in , can shoot out of it, they remained silent. It's sad that the facebook manager doesnt actually play 40k and that they can misdirect people like this (assuming it isnt open topped because of the apocalypse datasheet)
There isn't one "facebook manager". It's run by the community team.
They don't have the rules until we do in many cases. They're also not going to give you the frigging rules to play it.
Yeah if they can disembark after moving i'd probably forgive it not being opentopped.
That re-enables a tactic i sorely miss in 40k of old - slingshotting short-ranged units (or assaulty units) with a cheapo transport. In other words i miss my MANz missiles lol
Suzuteo wrote: I am still holding out that there is a special rule for the ramp. It would be so disappointing if it's just a box. Not even a flying or open-topped box.
Have you seen the post they made on facebook about the inspiration for the style? A commenter asked if it was open-topped and the Warhammer account responded that yes it was, when they specified "open-topped" as in , can shoot out of it, they remained silent. It's sad that the facebook manager doesnt actually play 40k and that they can misdirect people like this (assuming it isnt open topped because of the apocalypse datasheet)
There isn't one "facebook manager". It's run by the community team.
They don't have the rules until we do in many cases. They're also not going to give you the frigging rules to play it.
thats what i meant by manager, i blanked on the actual term. But still, my comment stands, if they played 40k and knew what open-topped implied in the rules, theu wouldve chosen not to answer that question as to not give out false information.
Not really. People should know by now that they aren't ever going to reply with specific rules related answers, unless asked specific rules related questions in advance.
And even then, they are unlikely to comment on items' rules before they actually are released.
Kanluwen wrote: Not really. People should know by now that they aren't ever going to reply with specific rules related answers, unless asked specific rules related questions in advance.
And even then, they are unlikely to comment on items' rules before they actually are released.
they wouldve chosen not to answer that question as to not give out false information.
not answering this specific question wouldve been no problem since they ignore most of the comments anyway. By answering, some people will think that it is open topped and purchase it thinking that itll be more than just a transport. i know not to take their word for it, i was just criticizing how they seem to lack ruels knowledge
The question that I saw them answer wasn't "Is it open-topped?" by any stretch of the imagination. It was "what's the difference between the tank and transport? is it open-topped?".
Their reply was the transport is the open-topped one.
You can try to spin this however you want, but again:
They aren't going to comment on rules questions before a product is released. This isn't "false information" by any stretch of the imagination given the context.
As i said, i know that they aren't going to comment on rules before its released. But not everyone does, a player that doesnt frequent forums and gets his info from the facebook group only might run to his store and preorder a transport explicitely to playwith an open topped strategy, only to find out that it isnt actually open-topped.
for people like that, it is false information. People were taking the regimental standard as a source to say that it was open topped, so clearly, it is false information.
And they chose to answer this specific comment out of the 70-ish ones that were posted, all the while leaving the other ones out.
My original comment was to point out that the community manager should be more well versed in the games rules so that mistakes like this didnt happen.
"Is the new transport open topped????" means nothing specific. If the person wanted to know the rules, they should have asked that--in which case they would have gotten a reply of "You'll have to wait to find out the rules!".
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah if they can disembark after moving i'd probably forgive it not being opentopped.
That re-enables a tactic i sorely miss in 40k of old - slingshotting short-ranged units (or assaulty units) with a cheapo transport. In other words i miss my MANz missiles lol
Kanluwen wrote: "Is the new transport open topped????" means nothing specific. If the person wanted to know the rules, they should have asked that--in which case they would have gotten a reply of "You'll have to wait to find out the rules!".
No but it does have certain connotation that any 40k player would instantly recognize.
I didnt post that comment to start an argument, have a good day.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah if they can disembark after moving i'd probably forgive it not being opentopped.
That re-enables a tactic i sorely miss in 40k of old - slingshotting short-ranged units (or assaulty units) with a cheapo transport. In other words i miss my MANz missiles lol
I would love even that!
that was actually something that popped in my mind when they did the sprue preview post and put some ephasis on the ramp. I think only the tempestus scions have a transport that lets them disembark after moving the transport? can they still move after?
Kanluwen wrote: "Is the new transport open topped????" means nothing specific. If the person wanted to know the rules, they should have asked that--in which case they would have gotten a reply of "You'll have to wait to find out the rules!".
No but it does have certain connotation that any 40k player would instantly recognize.
And any 40k player would also know that a lot of times now special/unique rules aren't "generic" rules like "open topped???", but instead there are bespoke rules that have taken the place of many of them. Any 40k player would also know that "open topped" vehicles usually don't have things blocking the models within from firing out like this does.
Spoiler:
Now, if you want to argue that there should be at least 4 firing points? Cool. But look at the height of the Skitarii inside vs the walls. You aren't just firing out of that. This isn't a Goliath or Trukk or Raider where there's a flat surface with hip height sides.
I didnt post that comment to start an argument, have a good day.
No, you posted that comment thinking people would just agree with you. There's a few different ways the Dunerider can still have a pseudo-open topped setup(Assault Ramp, Firing Points, etc) while not being just given Open Topped.
Suzuteo wrote: I am still holding out that there is a special rule for the ramp. It would be so disappointing if it's just a box. Not even a flying or open-topped box.
Have you seen the post they made on facebook about the inspiration for the style? A commenter asked if it was open-topped and the Warhammer account responded that yes it was, when they specified "open-topped" as in , can shoot out of it, they remained silent. It's sad that the facebook manager doesnt actually play 40k and that they can misdirect people like this (assuming it isnt open topped because of the apocalypse datasheet)
To be fair open topped doesn't exist as a rule any more. If you showed somebody that model and asked "is that open topped" they'd probably look at you like you needed glasses. Of course it's open topped, there's no top on the bay
And considering a lot of GWs staff probably are only passingly familiar with the game, especially some lowly community rep on Facebook, it doesn't surprise they're not familiar with a USR from a previous edition 2 years old.
Suzuteo wrote: I am still holding out that there is a special rule for the ramp. It would be so disappointing if it's just a box. Not even a flying or open-topped box.
Have you seen the post they made on facebook about the inspiration for the style? A commenter asked if it was open-topped and the Warhammer account responded that yes it was, when they specified "open-topped" as in , can shoot out of it, they remained silent. It's sad that the facebook manager doesnt actually play 40k and that they can misdirect people like this (assuming it isnt open topped because of the apocalypse datasheet)
To be fair open topped doesn't exist as a rule any more. If you showed somebody that model and asked "is that open topped" they'd probably look at you like you needed glasses. Of course it's open topped, there's no top on the bay
And considering a lot of GWs staff probably are only passingly familiar with the game, especially some lowly community rep on Facebook, it doesn't surprise they're not familiar with a USR from a previous edition 2 years old.
It is definitely still a rule. Look at the land speeder storm for example.
With the Castellan now being more rare, is the Gallant a viable choice for a lone knight detachment, or is the Krast Crusader gonna keep them off the top tables?
I'm imagining a max Dragoon unit, some Fulgurites in a hover-box/drill, and a Gallant as a great way to keep pressure on your opponent.
Question came up:
Does necromechanic and arkhan land relic work on self repair too? I always figured it doesnt work and only works on the master of machines ability to repair another friendly model.
0XFallen wrote: Question came up:
Does necromechanic and arkhan land relic work on self repair too? I always figured it doesnt work and only works on the master of machines ability to repair another friendly model.
No. The keyword is "repair." Pimp Cane's self ability is a "heal."
the_Grak wrote: With the Castellan now being more rare, is the Gallant a viable choice for a lone knight detachment, or is the Krast Crusader gonna keep them off the top tables?
I'm imagining a max Dragoon unit, some Fulgurites in a hover-box/drill, and a Gallant as a great way to keep pressure on your opponent.
Triple Krast Crusader murders other Knight lists. Even I've become wary.
On average, one Krast Crusader with Ironstorm and RFBC is ridiculous against other knights. With the relic that is.
First, hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s is 2/3 + (2/3*1/6) hit chance, which works out to 7 hits in 9 shots.
Ironstorm: average 3,5 shots, which is 49/18 hits, wounding on 5s is 49/54 wounds, saving on 4++ is 49/108 unsaved, but damage 4 makes it an average of 1.82 damage.
Stubbers: 6 shots = 14/3 hits, wounding on 6s = 7/9 wounds, saving on 3 is 7/27 unsaved wounds at 3 damage is .78 damage.
Gatling: 12 shots = 28/3 hits, wounding on 5s = 28/9 wounds, saving on 4 is 28/18 unsaved at 4 damage per is 6.22 damage.
RFBC: 7 shots on average = 49/9 hits, wounding on 4 = 49/18 wounds, saving on 4s is 49/36 unsaved at 4 damage on aver is 5.44 damage.
Thermal Cannon: 3.5 shots on average = 49/18 hits, wounding on 3s is 49/27 wounds, saving on 4s is 49/54 at 5.5 damage on average is 4.99 damage.
So RFBC Crusader is 14 damage on average in 1 round of shooting to a knight, all by himself. Thermal is slightly lower at max range, slightly more at half range. Then there's 1500 points of more stuff to dump into it. Doing more than half a knight's health in 1 round of shooting with 500 points of model is pretty good. I've done 22 damage with it to another knight before.
Expect to see the Krast Crusader a lot. Even if they don't take Headsmans Mark they'll take Endless Fury instead which is also bananas good.
Isnt it about time someone leaked the 40k datasheet? I was planning on going into my local warhammer store to get those cool looking objective markers and i cant order or buy a skorpius box until ive seen them.
Though actually they'll probably be demoing the apocalypse box which is supposed to have the 40k datasheet as well.
About the Krast though - a single knight becomes an instant "shoot me" giant bliping sign. If you fail to wither his AT shooting, he's toast. If you didn't manage to kill whatever you brought him to kill - you're toast.
I've been stuck with a Krast Crusader for several months (as I basically never purchased Castellan) and this setup is less and less appealing for me. Mathhammer wise it's great. And indeed, killing other Titanic is something he does exceptionally well. But Headman's Crusader is 500 pts that will most likely die turn 1 - if you can't hide him (and most terrains won't let you), be prepared to say goodbye. Especially now, after the invuln nerf for knights. So don't put all of your AT hopes into that model.
It has the huge carnifex value though, as 4++ Crusader will still gather enough fire so the rest of your list will be fairly healthy at the beginning of the round 2
On the topic of knights, if you bring say 1 knight 2 helverins, is it worth making him your warlord for the relic and trait or is that a bit risky?
Part of me wants to do it to give him perma 4++ and 2+ armor relic (to help with melee) but im also skeptical about that because hes not character-protected so might as well paint him with a giant bullseye on his back.
Vineheart01 wrote: On the topic of knights, if you bring say 1 knight 2 helverins, is it worth making him your warlord for the relic and trait or is that a bit risky?
Part of me wants to do it to give him perma 4++ and 2+ armor relic (to help with melee) but im also skeptical about that because hes not character-protected so might as well paint him with a giant bullseye on his back.
You could always spend the CP for them instead? then keep Cawl/Dominus more hidden.
There's the relic-purchasing stratagem for Knights basically every army has, you just need a valid Knight detachment to access the strats. A super heavy auxiliary detachment should be enough even.
Kanluwen wrote: There's no book, so I highly doubt we'll see a leak.
You can just go download the datasheet for Apocalypse right now.
We’ve pretty much established the apoc datasheet isnt enough to make a decision on whether the transport is viable in 40k. Apoc is devoid of almost all rules that make admech interesting, its as stripped back a concept as it gets. I need points and i need keywords and datasheet abilities/rules for each before i can decide. The tank i believe will be fine but at the moment i mainly need a transport.
I dont have a drill because i held off on splurging such a large amount of money on a model not really designed for our army, so given i want a transport it’s either the dunerider as an affordable and hopefully more useful than just a cheap, flimsy, slow box. Or go the whole hog and get a drill but put up with the weird synergy.
No invuln is probably gonna mean I'll be running the Belleros. The transports just need to get close, so I'm ok with relying on Stygies and Shroudpsalm.
Will be getting at least 1 mortar tank. probably 1 transport as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you think about it the Bellaros is about the cost of 1x Kastellan - I suspect that people will take one less Kastellan in exchange for some more anti-tank and some ignore LoS mortar fire...
The Dunerider WILL have to rely on Shroudpsalm, ideally the Stygies -1 as well to get where it needs to be. Shame the whole hover-shtick doesn't give it some terrain movement rule (especially water). But it's 1 point cheaper than a Rhino with 2 storm bolters and trades one point of toughness, smoke launchers (which could have been useful, especially for Stygies), and the rather pointless self repair rule for two wounds/HP, 33% more firepower, MUCH longer effective weapon range (12 shots at 36" rather than 8 shots at 12"/4 at 24") as well as a Data-Teether.
The Dunerider actually has the only Broad Spectrum Data teether that can actually properly do its job as infantry leadership buffer rather than simply being there to enable Protector Doctrina, and it will help the passengers no matter if you run two units of 5 or one unit of 10, especially considering how quickly a unit of 5 is going to lose it's Alpha and have a high risk of losing one or both special weapon troopers to a morale test, while a single big units benefits from the synergy that Enhanced and Broad Spectrum data-teethers have (LD8, re-rollable).
In any case it is a much better vehicle and transport than a Rhino is, especially considering shroudpsalm which it's going to get at least for the first two turns whether or not you play Mars.
Both the Dunerider and Disintegrator have good price points as far as point-cost goes, though the Disintegrator is probably better off having line of sight to at least one unit of infantry so it can use its missiles and three stubbers as well and earn its points back much faster. Ferrum cannon doesn't seem to be worth it, especially because it doesn't really fill a niche like the mortar does. On the other hand, 3D3x S6 AP-1 D2 isn't particularly good at killing infantry that isn't mortar squads, without the ability to ignore the cover bonus target units are likely to get.
EDIT: Also it's official, the Dunerider cannot transport Kataphrons or Cawl, but every other Mechanicus/Secutarii infantry unit, with no extra transport capacity cost for Sicarians. Considering the price cut Ruststalkers got, a unit of five in addition to a unit of Vanguard does seem worth a try. Or 2-3 Datasmiths + infantry for the close range lulz (I mean a Datasmith is only 41 points for 4 wounds T4 2+/5++... that's a 1+ save with shroudpsalm, a fist and one hell of a handgun ;D) . Electropriests, Hoplites and especially Ruststalkers (you can squeeze a unit of 10 with blades into a Dunerider for 216 points total... and the passengers alone have TWENTY wounds/HP) are the big winners though.
No invul on the tank and costs about the same as the outright brutal dunecrawler. Other than the mortar shots, it has no reason to exist, but with the amount of other guns it has its kinda wasted hiding it so you cant shoot it. Its not even more durable to offset the lack of invul let alone the rerollable invul (+1 wound does not count as more durable, 12 needs no more shots than 11 to kill with 2-3D guns)
Transport is even MORE light on rules than expected. Given it has 2 of the spectrum antennas i was at least expecting a better rule for that, but its still the same 3" bubble +1 LD. Why isnt it a wider bubble given they decided to put emphasis on "it has TWO of them!" is beyond me.
Though i will atleast say we have a valid target for our "it blows up automatically" stratagem. Transport will actually be close enough to the enemy to want to do that sometimes and does more than 1 mortal wound.
The cannon seems like a nice consistant anti-tank weapon. Against T7 targets, it's still a 3 shot, 3 damage lascannon, which is nothing to sneeze at. It also has the extra missile punch and pretty decent anti-infantry with 9 stubber shots, all for 116 points. The nutronager is great, but it can suffer a lot from RNG. The skorpius really does look like a decent alternative, trading damage potential for more reliability and some additional small-arms fire.
Some of my other armies would kill for a platform like this.
No invul on the tank and costs about the same as the outright brutal dunecrawler. Other than the mortar shots, it has no reason to exist, but with the amount of other guns it has its kinda wasted hiding it so you cant shoot it. Its not even more durable to offset the lack of invul let alone the rerollable invul (+1 wound does not count as more durable, 12 needs no more shots than 11 to kill with 2-3D guns)
Transport is even MORE light on rules than expected. Given it has 2 of the spectrum antennas i was at least expecting a better rule for that, but its still the same 3" bubble +1 LD. Why isnt it a wider bubble given they decided to put emphasis on "it has TWO of them!" is beyond me.
Though i will atleast say we have a valid target for our "it blows up automatically" stratagem. Transport will actually be close enough to the enemy to want to do that sometimes and does more than 1 mortal wound.
I mean, when shroudpsalm is up, unless the Skorpius is being targeted by AP -4 shooting, it will have the exact same save as the onager. I don't think the lack of invuln will matter all that much. Plus, when you factor in the missiles, the damage output against T7/T8 is superior to the Neutron laser for the same cost.
So are we expecting an FAQ for the range on the mortar do we think? Unboxing confirms its still 36” yet the apocalypse one says 48”. I’m not quite ready to accept they have different ranges in each system, its just weird.
Quick technical question. What size base do Engiseers use? I'm using a couple third-party models and want to make sure I'm using the right base. I've got them on the standard 28mm? bases currently.
bmsattler wrote: Quick technical question. What size base do Engiseers use? I'm using a couple third-party models and want to make sure I'm using the right base. I've got them on the standard 28mm? bases currently.
Sweet Jesus...this thing is an auto-include at that price point.
I've got 3 variants of my current primary list. One that drops the bots and keeps breachers. One that has both. And one that drops the breachers and keeps the bots.
All the variants include 3 of these new tanks, 3 icarus crawlers, 2 new transports and 60+ infantry.
bmsattler wrote: Quick technical question. What size base do Engiseers use? I'm using a couple third-party models and want to make sure I'm using the right base. I've got them on the standard 28mm? bases currently.
32mm
The webstore-exclusive old metal Enginseer and the Forge-World Titan Tech Priest are on 25mm, I think. So I guess you could play Enginseers on either 25mm or 32mm (but probably better to play them on 32 for their repair range?).
bmsattler wrote: Quick technical question. What size base do Engiseers use? I'm using a couple third-party models and want to make sure I'm using the right base. I've got them on the standard 28mm? bases currently.
32mm
The webstore-exclusive old metal Enginseer and the Forge-World Titan Tech Priest are on 25mm, I think. So I guess you could play Enginseers on either 25mm or 32mm (but probably better to play them on 32 for their repair range?).
Ah yeah, sorry - I meant for the new plastic enginseer.
Hulksmash wrote: Sweet Jesus...this thing is an auto-include at that price point.
I've got 3 variants of my current primary list. One that drops the bots and keeps breachers. One that has both. And one that drops the breachers and keeps the bots.
All the variants include 3 of these new tanks, 3 icarus crawlers, 2 new transports and 60+ infantry.
So excited. Glad I already got 3 on pre-order.
Yep, the Disintegrator is clearly overpowered at 111/116 points a piece.
Expect a price increase in CA 2019, they won't leave them as they are with -1 to Hit and possibly 2 turns of 2+ armour save (Prepared positions and always in cover from Canticles of Omnissiah)
If this kit was $50 I'd be all over it. $75 is just a bit steep for what it is. I mean heck I'm paying more than a dollar a point for the transport which always leaves a sour taste. Means I'm getting maybe 1 or 2, not 4 or 5.
They're really not anything fancy but the points costs work for me. The dunerider while a bit boring is what we said we wanted, a simple box to carry stuff that was cheap. The stubbers are efficient, the data tether is actually useful for infantry for once, and it looks like it might be good for blocking LoS to things like Kataphrons in a pinch. Fly or open topped would be awesome but it seems useable. I'm kind of curious to see what an admech mechanized list would look like. The amount of 2+ T7 models between the transports, the tanks, Onagers, and Kastellans would be cool to see, maybe sprinkle in some Dragoons or ballistaari to taste.
The tank is a good sweet spot pts wise. It's a real shame it can't fall back and shoot but the guns are solid and it's got the essential bits. No squadron sucks though, same problem the Onager has. I really want 2 of both guns but I'm not able to run that so it's going to be something awkward like 2 Icarus, 1 neutron, 1 AT skimmer, and 2 mortar skimmers for my skitarii army.
Just surprisingly simple, compared to everything else admech has having a ton of whacky weapons and rules. I half expected this thing to have some cooky aura ability or machine spirit rule.
Hulksmash wrote: Sweet Jesus...this thing is an auto-include at that price point.
I've got 3 variants of my current primary list. One that drops the bots and keeps breachers. One that has both. And one that drops the breachers and keeps the bots.
All the variants include 3 of these new tanks, 3 icarus crawlers, 2 new transports and 60+ infantry.
So excited. Glad I already got 3 on pre-order.
Yep, the Disintegrator is clearly overpowered at 111/116 points a piece.
Expect a price increase in CA 2019, they won't leave them as they are with -1 to Hit and possibly 2 turns of 2+ armour save (Prepared positions and always in cover from Canticles of Omnissiah)
You never need to use Prepared positions as Admech (at least pure admech, guess things are different if you run soup and half your list is something else) because you can simply pick Shroudpsalm on turn 1 and pay 2CP to pick it again on turn 2. Which is strictely better, because Shroudpsalm works outside your deployment zone (which can be pretty limiting if you end up with less than a quarter of the table).
Theoretically you could use prepared positions, pick shroudpsalm turn 2 and pay another 2 CP to pick it again 3, but then you end up paying 4 CP and still end up severely limiting your movement options on the first turn. And usually the outcome of a game will have been decided after the first two turns (especially with a shooty army like Admech, if you didn't cripple your opponent's firepower by then, chances are you are simply not going to win).
The Disintegrator isn't going to be overpowered, especially if you take a look at what an Onager gets for 119 points (or even less with an Icarus array) or what the currently OP units are in the game (including 4 PPM guardsmen which still haven't gotten their deserved nerf after 2 years). It's a good vehicle for the point cost, but not something you will always include in a list (or more than one) unlike our beloved Crabs .
Bull, its 1pt cheaper, has minimum as many shots as a icarus crawler but upwards of double most walkers, has an extra wound, 4" more movement, and answers the eldar problem. Not counting how much it helps in itc if you play that format. Most pure admech lists should start 3xdisentigrators with mortars for 333pts and 3 icarus crawlers for 336pts.
@suzuteo you running 3 as mortars? Is 3D3 that great? I’ve been spoiled with using wyverns lol. It’s fantastic that it exists but I guess when you start comparing things to other armies you inevitably start getting green
Ideasweasel wrote: @suzuteo you running 3 as mortars? Is 3D3 that great? I’ve been spoiled with using wyverns lol. It’s fantastic that it exists but I guess when you start comparing things to other armies you inevitably start getting green
I’m still on the fence about them
9 to 27 shots at S6 -1AP, 2D shots per turn? each shot that hits will probably kill a guard mortar team...
On average how many alaitoc dark reapers is that a turn?
Maybe it is amazing and I need to give it a fair try but on paper it’s not got me overly excited. More than happy to get aboard the hype train and admit I’m wrong
Hard to say because of how much eldar can buff a unit. But it's more then we get now and each does more than a wyvern because the ignore cover and -1 balance out. Better than a wyvern if they are just jumping behind a wall. And you still have other weapons for other units unlike a wyvern. Oh, and they can haz canticles.
I'd honestly have paid 150 for what were getting. And it's going to be 111 until at least 2020 because there is no way it get altered in time for ca19 because there isnt time from nova and they like 2-3 of the big kids before they alter. So enjoy the hell out if this thing. Even if it goes up itll still be a steal.
This kit a most staple example of "it's good because it's cheap". Guess Admech really is a shooting horde
On a side note though - I see many people claim this thing will be very durable due to the Shroudpsalm. My question is - how many CPs do you guys run in your lists? Because I'm running dry turn 2, 3 if I am lucky. I can't imagine squeezing another 2CPs for the Canticle, that apparently is essential to the survival of the kit.
The Admech reddit is having a serious meltdown over the Dunerider/Disintegrator rules. Most of it comes down to "it has no inv. save, how is it going to survive???". Seriously, reading through those comments makes it seem as if the commenters would rather pay another 10 extra points for a 6++ they are never going to use anyway because you still get a 6+ save even against lascannons, and against anything anything else a ~16% chance is not a real loss.
And that's before considering that with Shroudpsalm the tanks still get a 5+ save against lascannons.
And sure, the model kit is absolutely overpriced, but I also get the impression that many people would prefer the transport to cost 100+ points just so they can feel like buying it is "justified" even if it would be overpriced crap on the table.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: The Admech reddit is having a serious meltdown over the Dunerider/Disintegrator rules. Most of it comes down to "it has no inv. save, how is it going to survive???". Seriously, reading through those comments makes it seem as if the commenters would rather pay another 10 extra points for a 6++ they are never going to use anyway because you still get a 6+ save even against lascannons, and against anything anything else a ~16% chance is not a real loss.
And that's before considering that with Shroudpsalm the tanks still get a 5+ save against lascannons.
And sure, the model kit is overpriced, but I also get the impression that many people would prefer the transport to cost 100+ points just so they can feel like buying it is "justified" even if it would be overpriced crap on the table.
It's because GW milks the hell out of the AdMech community. How come Kastelan Robots are 55€ and one of our best units, or suddenly they noticed they didn't sold enough Kataphrons and one book later they're in every list at the abysmal price of 46€ for three TROOPS models. I thought the Dragoon/Ironstrider box was already pushing the limits with almost 1€/2 pts while requiring multiple boxes, but the Skorpius Dunerider is even worse in that regard. They're just exploiting our begging for a transport to release us a 60€ kit they know they'll sell 6 times to the most dedicated AdMech player. It's just plain outrageous.
And concerning the save I expected a 5++ and T7. What's the point of the open-topped design if it's just making the vehicle less solid ? Slap a roof on it like everyone else for god's sake. This makes no sense and it's infuriating. Now the best weapons to destroy Duneriders are AdMech's Arc weapons, they're now designed to kill our own vehicles.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: The Admech reddit is having a serious meltdown over the Dunerider/Disintegrator rules. Most of it comes down to "it has no inv. save, how is it going to survive???". Seriously, reading through those comments makes it seem as if the commenters would rather pay another 10 extra points for a 6++ they are never going to use anyway because you still get a 6+ save even against lascannons, and against anything anything else a ~16% chance is not a real loss.
And that's before considering that with Shroudpsalm the tanks still get a 5+ save against lascannons.
And sure, the model kit is overpriced, but I also get the impression that many people would prefer the transport to cost 100+ points just so they can feel like buying it is "justified" even if it would be overpriced crap on the table.
It's because GW milks the hell out of the AdMech community. How come Kastelan Robots are 55€ and one of our best units, or suddenly they noticed they didn't sold enough Kataphrons and one book later they're in every list at the abysmal price of 46€ for three TROOPS models. I thought the Dragoon/Ironstrider box was already pushing the limits with almost 1€/2 pts while requiring multiple boxes, but the Skorpius Dunerider is even worse in that regard. They're just exploiting our begging for a transport to release us a 60€ kit they know they'll sell 6 times to the most dedicated AdMech player. It's just plain outrageous.
And concerning the save I expected a 5++ and T7. What's the point of the open-topped design if it's just making the vehicle less solid ? Slap a roof on it like everyone else for god's sake. This makes no sense and it's infuriating. Now the best weapons to destroy Duneriders are AdMech's Arc weapons, they're now designed to kill our own vehicles.
Yes thats my problem and a lot of redditers, its not only BUT MUH invuln.
Its just that we can expect invulns for ours, its one of the few things that we could expect.
BSDT is normal despite 2 huge antennas.
Our chicken are T6 and the little dunecrawler hull T7 so I kinda expected T7 and T8
The ramp has no function either, Expected disembark after move or able to transport kataphron.
Has no Fly, and neither a pseudo fly to help aggressive plays.
It has no cool weird grimdark admech rules. AND it neither goes with the kinda Streamlined admech efficiency.
Its open topped, but its 10 cm to high for you troops to look over it and shoot. Or, more simple, they could have installed little banks to stand up on..
Nothing makes sense sadly, not even the energy cannon, how does it ignore LOS?
The skitarius with the pistol on top of the vehicle cant shoot as well.
If you have experiences with Wyverns, you know exactly how important non-LOS shooting is in ITC. One of my primary frustrations with pure AdMech is how many matchups boil down to a risky waiting game where the other side plays extremely conservatively to prevent getting blown out. These Mortars let us score Kill 1 at will pretty much. If we go second, it also lets us deny Hold More and possibly Hold 1.
The Mathhammer on this thing is good. Surprisingly, the things it kills best are Elites. T4-5 W2 just get shellacked by this thing. Really, anything with W2 is very vulnerable to it. Most valuable targets are W3 (Bullgryns, Warlocks), but one cannot be picky.
Going to repeat my earlier question though: Does Hover Platform mean that I can advance and shoot Heavy weapons at only -1 to hit?
Ideasweasel wrote:@suzuteo you running 3 as mortars? Is 3D3 that great? I’ve been spoiled with using wyverns lol. It’s fantastic that it exists but I guess when you start comparing things to other armies you inevitably start getting green
I’m still on the fence about them
Guard kind of spoils you when it comes to indirect fire. These are pretty good and anything with flat damage is golden, I hate d3 because inevitably you end up using 3-4 damage to actually drop 2 wound models. Plus the other big bonus is 3d3 shots. Much more consistent which means you can rely on it more.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:The Admech reddit is having a serious meltdown over the Dunerider/Disintegrator rules. Most of it comes down to "it has no inv. save, how is it going to survive???". Seriously, reading through those comments makes it seem as if the commenters would rather pay another 10 extra points for a 6++ they are never going to use anyway because you still get a 6+ save even against lascannons, and against anything anything else a ~16% chance is not a real loss.
And that's before considering that with Shroudpsalm the tanks still get a 5+ save against lascannons.
And sure, the model kit is absolutely overpriced, but I also get the impression that many people would prefer the transport to cost 100+ points just so they can feel like buying it is "justified" even if it would be overpriced crap on the table.
Honestly Reddit is just as much of a cesspit as 4chan, they just don't like to admit it I really wouldn't trust them for intelligent discussion as far as I could throw them.
Although I can kind of understand being confused over no invuln. It's what, the second unit in our codex without an invuln? The other being servitors, a throwaway unit that GW didn't even take time to properly integrate into our army as troops in big units, you know, since we have a million of the damn things We don't really need it but it does screw with the theme of the army. When all our other stuff has crazy and weird tech GW decided to look at the dunerider and go "ooooh, it floats! Look at how crazy that is! But it only floats a little bit, let's not get too crazy!" Which is really weird when our other two heavy supports are a walking crab tank with overlapping energy Shields and giant robots that may or may not be men of iron in disguise with energy Shields that ricochet shots back at their enemy and need to be reprogrammed to do things.
In other news, the magnetizing front doesn't look as bad as we first worried. The prow of the gun tank is all one piece and slots into the hull from inside it looks like. If this is true, it'll be pretty easy to magnetize, as long as you don't mind gluing your assault ramp shut. Basically you'll have a prow that slots in or out and the top can just sit on the model sans magnets most likely.
The tricky part is the turret, but I think the easiest thing there is to just make the turret as the gun tank and make it where it can mount two stubbers.
dunno about you guys but i face a ton of ap-4
Marine "better plasma" bullcrap and meltas all over the place. It irritates me when i field my walkers as Orks and none of them get a save at all unless theyre in a KFF bubble because they always get hit with dozens of AP-4 wounds.
Another Ryzaphron + Friends list got Top 4. This time at Master's City.
TWELVE Ryzaphrons, backed by 2x Drills + 2x12 Fulgurites. No Dragoons or deepstrikers. Very interesting. I think it might have done better with a bit more diversity. Thoughts?
Wouldn't survive at our rtt level locally let alone a lot of our gts. Curious as to its win path. Doesnt feel like it has enough range support to deal with any kind of moderate horde, fliers, or any army that doesnt rely on a single unit.
They cant feel much more useless than the phosphor blasters. Those sound great in theory but they've rarely done anything of note for me. Which is weird because it's essentially just a better heavy bolter for every 3 you take, youd think the phosphor would do more. Especially 12 of them, that's 24 heavy bolter shots that ignore cover in rapid fire range.
Paying a pt extra for the flamer can't hurt too much. Might at least make it where the opponent needs to dedicate something more powerful to tie them up. Especially if you're using them aggressively. I'm not sure what else you'd use them for. Maybe it's just me but I try to not put my Destroyers so close to the front line they're in rapid fire range, especially not flamer range.
Right. I am a bit mystified as well as to how this list did so well without 2-3 Dakkabots to give Elimination Volley. That being said, we are in a shooting meta right now though. Eldar Aircraft, Chaos Dreadnoughts, Tau Triptides, Ultramarines Tanks, and Guard Tanks are all very popular. Ryzaphrons are the most efficient anti-tank shooting in the entire game right now. 48 points for D6 S15 AP-3 D3 plasma is incredibly broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My friend flipped the table when he found out how cheap the Disintegrator is. He said it was Calladius territory. And he has a point:
@Suzuteo: Gabriel Rocheleau posted on Reddit and described how he ran it at the tourney.
Well, despite the doom and gloom on social media, I'm building Hoplites, Fulgurites, I preordered 2 Duneriders, and I'll be getting more Skorpius kits later; I'm ready to experiment.
After doing the mathhammer, I'm confident that the utility the kit brings is efficient enough to facilitate my goal of competitively running Stygies using a mechanized 'hammer and anvil' style of strategy.
On another topic, who's gonna take the lead and start the new super-awesome, frequently updated, tactica thread?
Cheap costs, but I'm picking up things that have been solid proven that I didn't have yet. I'll wait and see what these new tanks do and maybe see if they get the nerf hammer before I decide to pay this crazy price tag for them.
Now if they get put out in a good boxset for a deal down the road - taps his chin - Then I'll be on it like white on rice, patience be my ally.
@the_Grak
Nice. I'm not really convinced by this list's robustness. A lot can go really wrong, actually. But the principle of Ryzaphrons + Friends is right. I like the triple Battalion setup too.
I guess that’s a pretty basic but punchy “double threat” list? The ryzaphrons are a pricey distraction carnifex that will probably see a few survive to do some damage with a strat to pass morale, and the drills then get in and cause chaos since priests are great at hitting basically any target.
Not a super strong list but simple and effective, dangling two very nasty threats in front of the enemy and forcing a lot of lists to choose which one they attack, with no correct choice really.
Suzuteo wrote: Another Ryzaphron + Friends list got Top 4. This time at Master's City.
TWELVE Ryzaphrons, backed by 2x Drills + 2x12 Fulgurites. No Dragoons or deepstrikers. Very interesting. I think it might have done better with a bit more diversity. Thoughts?
What do people think about the Cognis Flamers? Useful for Overwatch, I suppose, since the unit has little protection?
One thing is for sure though: This list is really good at killing Dreadnoughts.
drills with priest extremely highly value for me. As i said we dont play them in Etc but if i was ITC definetly . Every game i try priests they kill everything. and the Drill is extreme for what you want it for. Simply put sending the drills to enemy lines eat over watch and then preist killing frenzy. die or not till 20+ die after 3+ invu is just the game. Imagine that with a good shooter support.
As for the destroyers is high risk high reward . Can go really badly. I m not sure about the event missions maps etc but its really high efficient point for point model for model lots of cp giving him control over the battle and if combo works in table lethal.
I have tested and played all parts of the list super good in some cases.
So, Ill probably getting a drill, is it any good? The rules seem cool and strong at least what I would expect of Admech, which the new Skorpius variants dont seem to be, although they are cheap points wise.
Pomguo wrote: I guess that’s a pretty basic but punchy “double threat” list? The ryzaphrons are a pricey distraction carnifex that will probably see a few survive to do some damage with a strat to pass morale, and the drills then get in and cause chaos since priests are great at hitting basically any target.
Not a super strong list but simple and effective, dangling two very nasty threats in front of the enemy and forcing a lot of lists to choose which one they attack, with no correct choice really.
Actually, it's quite obvious for most opponents that they are going for the Destroyers. The pilot of the list says he usually deploys them out of range.
I think the principle of hammer and anvil is pretty sound in general. Big scary and tough-to-kill melee threat, big scary ranged threat. Force the enemy to come closer to the melee threat to hurt the ranged threat. I personally like Dragoons more than the Fulgurites at the moment though. If the opponent plays defensively, it may take more than one turn to get the Fulgurites into range due to the awkwardness of disembarking; given they are extremely vulnerable until their first kill, they have to stay embarked until they are ready to fight.
I can foresee two big weaknesses for this army though, due to the dependence on Ryzaphrons. The first is Eldar aircraft. Ryzaphrons are TERRIBLE against -2 and -3 to hit. You can't even overcharge them at some point. And the Fulgurites can't even fight them. The second is Triptides Tripsides. Drones sponge up plasma shots like nothing, and Overwatch can and will kill Drills. Dakkabots or something like Basilisks (now our Mortar Tankettes ) are so key in that matchup to kill the Drones.
From my experience it's actually not that bad against tau. If you have a big unit you can force them to roll so many dice that they will fail a few 2+ drone saves. Remember, you will be wounding on 2s and hitting on 3's with reroll 1.
Not really. You're look at max 72 shots, ~48 hits, 40 wounds, 6.67 failed Saviours. So... 12 damage. At most. Realistically, you will have a top row damaged Riptide and 15 dead Shield Drones. Most Tau bring 30-40 of them.
I used to run 6x Dakkabots with 6x Ryzaphron with Daggers. Totally plowed through Tau. Kill all the Drones and maybe one Riptide, KO the Riptides with plasma the next turn.
I've written the new Tactica thread as requested by popular demand, it's a work in progress, but I'm here often so I'll update it as my time allows. Feel free to debate there and discuss the new Skorpius hotness.
Suzuteo wrote: Not really. You're look at max 72 shots, ~48 hits, 40 wounds, 6.67 failed Saviours. So... 12 damage. At most. Realistically, you will have a top row damaged Riptide and 15 dead Shield Drones. Most Tau bring 30-40 of them.
I used to run 6x Dakkabots with 6x Ryzaphron with Daggers. Totally plowed through Tau. Kill all the Drones and maybe one Riptide, KO the Riptides with plasma the next turn.
While I agree that ryzaphrons are wasting a ton of firepower on drones if you just shoot them at riptides willy nilly, that maths doesn’t seem to agree with the optimal, does it? Is it only 48 hits even when rerolling 1s to hit? And then 12 damage out of 6 successful hits, not 18 damage from overcharge + ryza?
But yeah even just making room for two robots for anti-drone fire and the +1 to hit would help a fair bit imo.
Suzuteo wrote: Not really. You're look at max 72 shots, ~48 hits, 40 wounds, 6.67 failed Saviours. So... 12 damage. At most. Realistically, you will have a top row damaged Riptide and 15 dead Shield Drones. Most Tau bring 30-40 of them.
I used to run 6x Dakkabots with 6x Ryzaphron with Daggers. Totally plowed through Tau. Kill all the Drones and maybe one Riptide, KO the Riptides with plasma the next turn.
While I agree that ryzaphrons are wasting a ton of firepower on drones if you just shoot them at riptides willy nilly, that maths doesn’t seem to agree with the optimal, does it? Is it only 48 hits even when rerolling 1s to hit? And then 12 damage out of 6 successful hits, not 18 damage from overcharge + ryza?
But yeah even just making room for two robots for anti-drone fire and the +1 to hit would help a fair bit imo.
Well... 48 is assuming you roll twelve 6s for shots. I dispensed with precision at that point. Lol.
Suzuteo wrote: Not really. You're look at max 72 shots, ~48 hits, 40 wounds, 6.67 failed Saviours. So... 12 damage. At most. Realistically, you will have a top row damaged Riptide and 15 dead Shield Drones. Most Tau bring 30-40 of them.
I used to run 6x Dakkabots with 6x Ryzaphron with Daggers. Totally plowed through Tau. Kill all the Drones and maybe one Riptide, KO the Riptides with plasma the next turn.
Ryza plasma does 3 though?
My maths: 42 shots on average, hitting on 3´s with reroll 1 and wounding on 2´s equals ~ 27 wounds. Tau will fail ~ 4.5 passes ~ 13,6 wounds.
Sure the Tau player might reroll a 1, but so you might reroll one of your low number of shots so that balances kind of out. So total you have a dead or atleast a low bracket Riptide.
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Hulksmash wrote: Mmm.....new tanks help murder tau And eldar flyer lists even more so.
Not sure I wanna give up all my CC but this is one of the directions I'm testing;
I just remember doing some dice tool estimates the other day and getting an average of 15 wounds vs a riptide surrounded by drones (with each destroyer firing 3.5 times) so you getting 12 wounds from almost twice as many shots seemed off, haha. Was wondering if maybe my own maths had been erroneous.
Yoda79 wrote: This will be the last post here .Adeptus Mechanicus after the new release models etc created a new Threat.Follow the discussion here. Thanks
