I would take an Enginseer over a Primaris Psyker because he is 3 points cheaper and has a much more useful ability for the purposes of this army.
Er, yes. All of those things can be a tax as well depending on the army. If we were an infantry army, that would be different, but we're not, so I don't see your point.
Every codex army intentionally takes units to most efficiently spend its CP.
What useful ability? Repair? Ok, where do you find opponents who shoot every single one of your onagers a bit so you could repair? The most units I had injured was 2. And I always have 3-4 repairmen because they're just tax for CP detachments. So 2-3 of them are just standing around jacking off. Meanwhile psykers can spam smite ever damn turn. I'd take a Primaris psyker any day of the week: deny, mortals wounds(Even useable melee combat). Yes please.
Who said we're not an infantry army? Most of our army is infantry(10:4)! We have Onagers, Kastelans and Chicken walkers that aren't infantry only. Everything else is INFANTRY. Wanna guess why AdMech are doing poorly in the tournament scene? Almost every infantry unit we have sucks ass, therefor most of our choices suck ass.
And we have dragoons(2 turn 1, 1 every other turn) and Kastelans(3 turn 1, 2 every other turn) for the CP hogs already. Why bother with the suboptimal balistarii? Not to mention all other stratagems: re-roll, autopass morale, explode vehicles, etc.
Where are you getting all those CP. I run out of mine by turn 2 despite starting with 9 at least.
rvd1ofakind wrote: What useful ability? Repair? Ok, where do you find opponents who shoot every single one of your onagers a bit so you could repair? The most units I had injured was 2. And I always have 3-4 repairmen because they're just tax for CP detachments. So 2-3 of them are just standing around jacking off. Meanwhile psykers can spam smite ever damn turn. I'd take a Primaris psyker any day of the week: deny, mortals wounds(Even useable melee combat). Yes please.
Who said we're not an infantry army? Most of our army is infantry(10:4)! We have Onagers, Kastelans and Chicken walkers that aren't infantry only. Everything else is INFANTRY. Wanna guess why AdMech are doing poorly in the tournament scene? Almost every infantry unit we have sucks ass, therefor most of our choices suck ass.
And we have dragoons(2 turn 1, 1 every other turn) and Kastelans(3 turn 1, 2 every other turn) for the CP hogs already. Why bother with the suboptimal balistarii? Not to mention all other stratagems: re-roll, autopass morale, explode vehicles, etc.
Where are you getting all those CP. I run out of mine by turn 2 despite starting with 9 at least.
Dude, there is no way you're convincing me that opponents kill everything exactly all the time. You will end up with a damaged vehicle more often than not, and you can repair them. (Probably not 3-4 though.)
Oh yes. Smite. Got to kill that random Conscript or Horror parked in the middle of the field. >_>
Looking at my points, most of my army are in vehicles.
There were no Kastelans in that Ballistarii list.
Here:
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 507
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Smiting is better than doing nothing(Aka what 2-3 of my repairmen end up doing most of the turns). Also denying is a HUGE part of why Primaris Psykers are awesome.
Also, I'm not talking about what's viable. I already know that non-infantry is viable. However it doesn't change the fact that were designed to be a infantry close combat army with artilery for backup.
The fact that GW fudged up on the balance of said infantry, doesn't change the fact that we were supposed to be an infantry heavy army. However with the tame changes we are still forced into pure Vehicle armies.
Also I'm talking about pure armies as I think Imperium and Chaos keywords should be banned from matched play. Which is why I need 3-4 repairmen in every list. Leading to 2-3 of them doing nothing as either:
1. Every unit with multiple wounds dies (the opponent shoots at the multiwound units until he kills them and then shoots infantry as I can't repair them). So the repairmen are doing nothing. Psykers are spamming meanwhile
2. 1 or very rarelly 2 units are damaged. Still 2-3 are doing nothing. Psykers are still spamming meanwhile
I like your list suzuteo it has a clear purpose it's ofc a spamm list but it can do some things. It still. Good example of the ad mech issues. You are forced to take big units to buff them effectively . While when you play you need options. 6+6 ironstriders are really hard to maneuver in any table and lately most tables are heavy on buildings as it should. On paper the list can perform though I'd take one neutronage not 3 icarus but ok. Unfortunately it won't perform as it should in table as it would on paper.
It's very nice don't get me wrong but it's also not flexible. ! A Magnus Terminator generally a good invu list will cause you trouble. And ofc I would play it but it's also so expensive to even try it. Yet it's probably the most mobile still cp hungry. It's a good dragoon spamm sure but that's it
I d remove one dragoon and one balistarii or an icarus something for 8-10 stygies staff priests(counter or inf mortals etc.). Just a thought!!
@rvd1ofakind
Given the choice of ONE Enginseer against ONE Psyker, I would do the Enginseer. But if we need 4 HQs total , I will probably want Cawl and Enginseer, then 2 Psykers.
Denying is not that great for AdMech. We keep running back into the same issue: Our infantry suck, so we have to go heavy on vehicles. These vehicles only work if you are very far away. Your Psyker therefore is rarely going to be within 24" of that Weirdboy or Magnus.
I honestly wouldn't think too much on how AdMech was in 7E. It's clearly a mechanized army in 8E.
@Yoda79
Yeah, it's definitely a theorycraft list. 6 Dragoons are hard to maneuver on some boards for sure; I always recommend 4, but the incentive to go to 6 is so strong...
Unless you want to move them and fire at no penalty Though i guess thats no different to standard dreadnaughts.
I dunno, personally anything that can move and fire without penalty should be behind LOS blocking terrain turn one. My dunecrawlers dont get hit until turn two if i go second. Kataphrons should be no different, they have the range and you can put them anywhere in ruins as well because they're infantry, unlike you're robots, crawlers and ironstriders. I Usually put my robots out in the open because they're tough as nails turn one lol
I can't seem to make a list that uses elimination volley. I really want it to be a thing. The price reductions almost make it fit. But with 9 CP ... you are down to 3 by the end of turn 1 in a double battalion list.
Wulfey wrote: I can't seem to make a list that uses elimination volley. I really want it to be a thing. The price reductions almost make it fit. But with 9 CP ... you are down to 3 by the end of turn 1 in a double battalion list.
My list now has a Patrol of Cawl, 4 big robots, and 5 gravbots. Then a Battalion of Dark Angels or Ravenguard. I do use Elimination Volley. Not saying it's great but I'm having good enough experience.
Heavy Support - 324 3x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1070
HQ - 240 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 830 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 408
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 2000 points 6 Command Points
Alternative, if I wanted to go heavier AdMech:
Spoiler:
Cadian Spearhead Detachment - 354
HQ - 30 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 324 Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
I am toying with something very similar. If I go to LVO I will just buy 3 basilisks. I kept trying to write an enginseer / STYGIES / rangers list, and the HQ slot taxes were brutal. And 5 STYGIES rangers just aren't tougher or shooter than 10 guardsmen with firstrankfiresecondrankfire. I would actually take another Neutron over 2 more dragoons (cause those are the models I have painted). firstrankfiresecondrankfire really makes rangers seem bad.
Spoiler:
CADIA
2x1 Commanders - 3x10 guards - 1x3 Basiliks hvyBolter + strmBolter [5+/5+ with option relic of cadia]
STYGIES (-1 CP)
1x4 dragoons
MARS
Cawl - 1x5 Dakkabots - 3x1 NeutronOnagers + Stubbers
Also, I think Celestine is pretty much dead in admech lists at this point. Only way to bring her is to also bring boltergirls. But that Sisters strategem has me thinking. Every time a 'character' dies, you can spend a CP to do an act of faith on a 2+. That means every time a geminae dies, you can do an YNNARI style shot in the middle of your opponent's turn. Which is hilarious. Or you can get an opponent's turn move to move celestine out of line of sight, which is also lame. This list would use the bolter girls as screens in cover somewhere and for CP taxes. Since sisters don't need any of that regiment nonsense, a 30 point company commander can still be my WL and get Kurov's in the sister's detachment. Every time a geminae dies, on a 2+ I get a Ynnarri interrupt. That strategem is straight abuse with Celestine. Let's say 2 geminae die and I start taking wounds on celestine. Then on turn 3 another geminae gets up. Then Celestine dies. I can then use the strategem to do the healing act of faith and get celestine back up with d3 wounds on my opponent's turn if 1 geminae is still left.
Spoiler:
SISTERS LOST LADY
Celestine + 2 geminae
Company Commander CADIA, no regiment bonuses, but can get Kurov's+GrandStrategist
3x5 boltergirls, 2 bolters and 3 storm bolters in each
MARS
Cawl - 1x5 Dakkabots - 3x1 NeutronOnagers + Stubbers
1x4 Ballistari (2 auto / 2 laser, to make up for loss of basilisk firepower)
There is no better choice than guard battalion. And that gives cheap command points +3 best infantry with orders. Bodies wounds can move fast obj secure will survive cause unless enemy got horde army will ignore them and it's a non brainer.
Eethshakers where 80 points op. 110 basilisk are ok for their points but not to go crazy. If you don't have pshyckers to buff their defence they die easy. So hence the list as I have already said from day one needs max two of them that fit inside the battalion guard giving extreme command points and regained points. 3 you don't need and if you need more neutronager moving firing better all the way.
Ad mech serious issue is mobility . If enemy has cc is tough and you forced to stay in dakka corner we got issues. Outrider stygies for me works wonders. From as simple as 2*1 lasc b and 1*3 dragoon to an extreme heavy 1*3 lasc 1*3 lasc 1*4-6 dragoon.
Enginseer helps on healing and balistarii with -1 to hit can survive less guns to need healing and act as superior fast unit for late game screener etc.
And ofc sperhead for our superb vehicles best of.
Just so in comparison with other armies atm we are in a good point standing. Our units don't cost much rather they underperform. I will agree that big units will provide some consistency like the 6 balistarii with hit buff but will not provide wins. Why you got a lascannons not the cheapest still good with bs 3+ and you plan to buff hit.??? That's not a plan. It's nice it can work in cases but.
Some goes for icarus ND onager question. Sure icarus seems ok on paper but after the flier fix we won't be facing 20 flier. If hit is the issue bs 3+ on our armies with enough rerolls even canticle rerolls of 1 come close to most other armies.
Not to mention Cawl etc. So I was to remove Robots to gain some mobility I would go towards onager spamm.
As we did prior to codex. We turned to robots for volume of fire resulting to mortals. Codexes introduced 2+ invu once more in game and there is the issue.
So to recap if we invest in mobility and still want to to be ad mech 3 neutronagers and 3 icarus will deliver no matter what.
Dragoons balistarii and ofc staff priests make a superb list.
And after the latest point reduction breachers are superb screeners for dakka lines move shoot. And even if you decide now to make a troop army you can. 10 man plasm snipers arc omnispex or data all valid. With canticle you got n elite troop choise not bad at all. For those points are one of the cheapest elite troop choise and with some breachers can be a complete troop army. The guns we got for troops in 10 man's now with data tether can make valid detachment.
Brigade for troops with Max cp and one unit to super buff can be extreme . Breachers with reroll ones canticle 1cp for +1 invu +1 attack each turn. Makes them with healing tough as any for 120 points. Won't hurt much but if you know the hard to die is enough.
That's what you missed screener. And can move and can shoot and can defend and cc. Not superb but can do it for two rounds and if you play ad mech you know two rounds is what you need.
6 onagers shooting for two rounds or any combination with and or ironstriders makes this list unkillable. Stygies Dragoons go heavy breachers stygies or mars go heavy and onwbers go heavy all can move shoot take some techpriests a d max a brigade. Party. The reduced troops cost makes it viable. Not superb but viable . Viable enough to make you wonder now
High cp list with lots of troops special wepaons etc. A semi list purposed one with focused units like priests dragoons etc. And or soup pure dakka. Spearhead Cawl thing.
But it's not bad to be able to have a battalion for 199 points. Good bad it's 3+ cp to use where you like. You decide to take it a weight and use cp or make it battalion worthy with breachers snipers dunno what is up to you but from super competitive till super friendly there are more lists to be made now.
As said ad. Mech has a long road to get proper units and abilities but as of new points you might be able to field a plan.
Coming up next . Full mobile list vanguard's breachers Onagers Dragoons priests.
The repair ability isn’t useless. Yeah people will shoot an onager to death, sometimes they fail and you can make them waste a few more shots. It also removes the ability of your opponent to shoot them to a lower profile and be able to worry less about them
gendoikari87 wrote: The repair ability isn’t useless. Yeah people will shoot an onager to death, sometimes they fail and you can make them waste a few more shots. It also removes the ability of your opponent to shoot them to a lower profile and be able to worry less about them
It's useless when you are forced to have 3-4 of guys who repair when playing pure admech
gendoikari87 wrote: The repair ability isn’t useless. Yeah people will shoot an onager to death, sometimes they fail and you can make them waste a few more shots. It also removes the ability of your opponent to shoot them to a lower profile and be able to worry less about them
It's useless when you are forced to have 3-4 of guys who repair when playing pure admech
Depends how many vehicles you have lol. At least you can run an enginseer into a vehicle and potentially deal 3-5 damage from 2 attacks
gendoikari87 wrote: The repair ability isn’t useless. Yeah people will shoot an onager to death, sometimes they fail and you can make them waste a few more shots. It also removes the ability of your opponent to shoot them to a lower profile and be able to worry less about them
It's useless when you are forced to have 3-4 of guys who repair when playing pure admech
Depends how many vehicles you have lol. At least you can run an enginseer into a vehicle and potentially deal 3-5 damage from 2 attacks
lol good luck on that 5+ to hit with the servo arm
rvd1ofakind wrote: # of damaged vehicles barelly changes with the number of vehicles present. Any competant opponent will focus them 1 at a time if he can.
Obviously, but what will happen more often?
a) You'll have 3-4 injured vehicles
b) You'll have opponents within 18'' to smite or 24'' to deny. (especially as an artilery army that people want to put in combat really bad)
a) will happen once every 10 games maybe. b) will happen ALL THE TIME.
With the leaks out there, I have been tinkering a bit. We still have mediocre Troops and benefit from Guard additions - but not for the artillery anymore, due to the price hike on ESB.
Instead, just using them for bodies and CP. Likely will put them up front, Snipetarii behind them, and Cawl and gunline behind that with plenty of space between.
POST-CHAPTER APPROVED
Mars Battalion +3CP
HQ:
Cawl
[240]
Enginseer
[47]
Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[85]
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[85]
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[85]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
[1482]
Stygies Aux -1CP
Fast Attack:
(4) Sydonian Dragoons
[272]
[272]
Cadian Battalion +3CP
HQ:
Company Commander
Kurov's Aquila
[30]
Company Commander
Grand Strategist
[30]
Troops:
Infantry Squad
Lascannon
[60]
Infantry Squad
Lascannon
[60]
Infantry Squad
Lascannon
[60]
[240]
[1994]
Three Lascannons because my Neutronagers sometimes struggle and also wind up doing anti-air work with PDI, so having a few more ways to knock wounds off heavies is useful. Just having bodies between me and assault armies will be good though. The Stygies Aux gets me a Goondozer, with hopes that it will roam the board causing panic. Wrathbots & Cawl - standard protocol there. Triple Snipetarii because with re-rolls on six of them, I can actually knock out support characters that seem to be a thing more now than ever. Sadly, most of the ones worth killing have an invuln. They are the first thing up on my chopping block. May replace them with ...something... I have no idea. They fill out another Battalion and unless I strip the guns, I will likely drop in CP, which I can't afford. I could use those 150pt to buy a Tank Commander or something for added firepower. Haven't decided yet. Still looks like pure AdMech isn't happening.
I don’t think we have mediocre troops anymore. For 3 points more than a guardsmen you get +1 str +3” range +1 BS and +1 armor with an invuln save assault 2 plasma guns with range 18. All for 7 points. That’s all approaching cheaper versions of tempestus scions.
gendoikari87 wrote: I don’t think we have mediocre troops anymore. For 3 points more than a guardsmen you get +1 str +3” range +1 BS and +1 armor with an invuln save assault 2 plasma guns with range 18. All for 7 points. That’s all approaching cheaper versions of tempestus scions.
What they lack is deep strike and transports
They aren't awful, just mediocre. Most troops are, but ours really don't shine especially bright in the greater scheme of things. I still don't see them being worthwhile as a screen unit, nor is it worthwhile to really bring Plasma.
What we need is access to transports, as we all know. Fires may be our last hope for that, but that isn't coming until 2018 (which is weirdly close now!).
Even still, I wouldn't be packing Skitarii in a Triaros. And maybe Secutarii will come along and give us a good troop option. Who knows!
As it stands, for cheap fodder, Guard does it better.
gendoikari87 wrote: Yeah but as cheap fodder NOTHING compares to guard. Maybe grots.... maybe
Which is the point, of course. We need cheap fodder as a gunline - just like Guard.
On an aside, new rumor mill today has me... well, not excited really. Just curious and vaguely hopeful.
Given this type of part factors into almost every model in our range... maybe? I have my doubts, of course. If we were getting models, I would guess it would be during our release and not later. So it is probably something Marine related since they use that stuff too.
Maybe something for the Dark Angels coming along shortly.
Yeah probably DA or BA. But we can hope. Personally I’m about to sell my admech stuff. Save for a techpriest and tpd until gw comes out with fires so I can use vorax/thallax ect along side myrmidons to make sollus army
gendoikari87 wrote: The repair ability isn’t useless. Yeah people will shoot an onager to death, sometimes they fail and you can make them waste a few more shots. It also removes the ability of your opponent to shoot them to a lower profile and be able to worry less about them
It's useless when you are forced to have 3-4 of guys who repair when playing pure admech
Depends how many vehicles you have lol. At least you can run an enginseer into a vehicle and potentially deal 3-5 damage from 2 attacks
lol good luck on that 5+ to hit with the servo arm
Enginseer is 4+ both BS and Ws...which is another thing actually. why the hell is it not 3+ #copypastefail lol
Yeah and none can argue this is. Pure ad mech threat and community. Steam punked with UPS and downs mostly intellect sarcasm and love for the little mech units.
Sadly gw fails. And I can agree somewhat the points vs our units seem a little bit fixed atm but still we got so few units and so few playable. We got cheap and broken units and we still struggle to get a top competitive game. They need to work something fast here. Maybe the canticles can help maybe if you take dominus canticle option a second set uras buffs something to make this army able to get some options for the rest .
A clear example would be the 7th deep stirke Domi us with 3 units. We need to get those enginseers a serious role separate buffs or auras par to liutenant elite choices all others got.
There is not a single buff out side of rerolling on shooting. It's limiting this army ND it can be a great one. It's sad. Even with knights we are low on unit count. And the lists won't work together for no reason.
Still enjoy the point decrease it can make some fun lists to try out units not so famous so far. If you got 8+ Dragoons or 20+ priests or 6+ Onagers or 40+ troops . Maybe kataphrons can help now. I really think if you max out heavy slots and can't take more Onagers or don't want more robots breachers for 120 can be a consideration now.
What can we do dakka line and again hope for more. I have started another army already!! Wish for new year ad mech!!!
Tip more than two basilisk are a waste since we got some nice guns already! My list can't fit in 2k no more lol.
gendoikari87 wrote: I don’t think we have mediocre troops anymore. For 3 points more than a guardsmen you get +1 str +3” range +1 BS and +1 armor with an invuln save assault 2 plasma guns with range 18. All for 7 points. That’s all approaching cheaper versions of tempestus scions.
What they lack is deep strike and transports
They aren't awful, just mediocre. Most troops are, but ours really don't shine especially bright in the greater scheme of things. I still don't see them being worthwhile as a screen unit, nor is it worthwhile to really bring Plasma.
What we need is access to transports, as we all know. Fires may be our last hope for that, but that isn't coming until 2018 (which is weirdly close now!).
Even still, I wouldn't be packing Skitarii in a Triaros. And maybe Secutarii will come along and give us a good troop option. Who knows!
As it stands, for cheap fodder, Guard does it better.
To be honest, how much would a transport actually help? AdMech really doesn't have anything worth transporting now that skitarii have been reduced to chaff. Infiltrators have their own movement ability and Ruststalkers are just bad. Transports only see use in Chaos circles as a delivery system for Khorne Berzerkers, and that's because Berzerkers are an insanely strong unit who's only drawback is the inability to Get There. Even if an AdMech transport were introduced, what would you do with it?
This is largely why I hate what seems to be a race to the bottom for troop units; nothing in the troop slot is allowed to be lethal enough to stand on its own so troops exist only as a body to absorb shots, which means that only the cheapest bodies that absorb the most shots per point are worth anything.
The advantage of transports is increase in movement and protection. Imagine moving and advancing a chimera full of two 5 man skitarii with 2 plasma calivers each, popping out turn 2 and just unloading. makes their threat range much bigger and the hull makes them much more resilient. Suddenly you can't just ignore the skitarii as chaff anymore.
Just for comparison, the plasma in 2x 5 man squads alone is 8 shots at close range. for 126 points. compare that to a full out plasmacutioner which for 40% more only gets on average 11 if it moved less than half. and then you have another 6x3 lasgun shots Troops aren't all light on firepower they just die easy.
To deliver a CC Techpriest (yes they exist) with some plasma Vanguards, or most reliably, to allow your Fulgurites to form a full squad and go destroy everything. And because almost every army have one and we don't because reasons.
We got elitish troops like marines almost. Cheap marines. They got a role and that is pew pew. Can't survive cant melee but sure can shoot. Snipers arc plasma all valid and vnguard -1 tough is huge. If you play as support army. Gotta see how it will work out with breachers tbh. If breachers can actually stand firm them in paper we can win!
Needs testing but a cheap breacher unit backed from a cheap arc vang unit can't hurt . While ranger snipers can be a triple choise for two battalions maybe 10 man vang.maybe taser on alpha seems like cheap and durable options for two battalions. And I d most likely play or test if you like.
1*3-6breachers 2*5 snipers stygia. 2*5 vang taser and 1*5 ranger arc or plasma mars. Don't seem that bad even 10 man valid. And just so you know when you use a battalion example mars battalion an enginseer with rayment of technomartyr rocks. All you heavy hitting troops even robots on 6 extra hits. Can make a difference vs horde lists. If you see a great danger coming vs your breachers spend the cp for +1 save and +1 attack.
The problem with Skitarii, I believe, is that they have good guns, but will never get close enough to actually use them. An effective transport may make Peltasts (FIRES OF CYRAXUS PLZ) and plasma Vanguard effective.
Assault weapons can move fine. They are not as slow as you think and have shroud when moved to open ground . A dunestrider maybe a help on advance would make them just where they need to be. Transport for priests sure. Rusttalkers maybe if fixed don't need transport for troops no!
So with the new drop in points, I've been finally able to squeeze in a Mars and Stygies into 1500pts. I know this list isn't optimal (lots of infantry, neither loads of Robots or Dragoons) - but any suggestions? What would its greatest threats be?
Stygies Batallion Detachment
HQ Tech Priest Engineseer
Servo Arm
Relic: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
Aaranis wrote: To deliver a CC Techpriest (yes they exist) with some plasma Vanguards, or most reliably, to allow your Fulgurites to form a full squad and go destroy everything. And because almost every army have one and we don't because reasons.
pffft i mean it's not like the mechanicus builds the chimeras and rhinos the Imperial guard or space marines use. They can't just literally pull one from the factory floor which they don't fully and totally control.
Aaranis wrote: To deliver a CC Techpriest (yes they exist) with some plasma Vanguards, or most reliably, to allow your Fulgurites to form a full squad and go destroy everything. And because almost every army have one and we don't because reasons.
pffft i mean it's not like the mechanicus builds the chimeras and rhinos the Imperial guard or space marines use. They can't just literally pull one from the factory floor which they don't fully and totally control.
They build them reluctantly though. We’re not building their gak out of the goodness of our hearts, we will not lower ourselves to the likes of the rest of the imperium. Such mundaneness. We save the good stuff for ourselves. We’re just...REALLY saving it. Really.
Aaranis wrote: To deliver a CC Techpriest (yes they exist) with some plasma Vanguards, or most reliably, to allow your Fulgurites to form a full squad and go destroy everything. And because almost every army have one and we don't because reasons.
pffft i mean it's not like the mechanicus builds the chimeras and rhinos the Imperial guard or space marines use. They can't just literally pull one from the factory floor which they don't fully and totally control.
They build them reluctantly though. We’re not building their gak out of the goodness of our hearts, we will not lower ourselves to the likes of the rest of the imperium. Such mundaneness. We save the good stuff for ourselves. We’re just...REALLY saving it. Really.
*hugs* it'll be okay man, we're just saving it for fires. you'll see, the macrocarid and triarios will get plastic kits, GW will pay attention to us again. We'll become the top army, replacing guard...you'll see. you just have to believe the future is bright. the future, is a grand place.... i guess i'm just trying to make a defensive case for the future.
Guard infantry are way better than Skitarii for many reasons:
1) HQ has best warlord trait and relic in the game; AdMech is CP hungry, but pays high taxes for it
2) Cheaper HQ with very useful orders
3) Almost double the number of wounds per point
4) 48" heavy weapons and cheap plasma that synergizes with points #2 and #3
5) Almost double the number of bodies; more coverage, deeper screening
I personally run Mortars because they are ridiculously cheap and point efficient; I am actually shocked that they were left untouched. They kill Drones, Gaunts, GEQs, Boyz, etc. This frees up Kastelans up to hit harder targets and is a huge deal when you're facing something like Green Tide.
The damage output on skitarii are better. They are basically storm troopers without deepstrike capability. which is half the utility storm troopers have but hey.
Guard have some amazing strategems though that admech just plain does not have.
gendoikari87 wrote: The damage output on skitarii are better. They are basically storm troopers without deepstrike capability. which is half the utility storm troopers have but hey.
Guard have some amazing strategems though that admech just plain does not have.
Really? Compared to rerolling Mortars and FRFSRF? I would like to see math on that because nothing I have seen demonstrates this point. I guess maybe against slightly tougher units, sure. But that's what the artillery is for.
5 vanguard are 40 and have 15 str 3 at 18" and 12" and 0 at 24".
10 guardsmen with an order are 40 and have 18 str 3 shots at 24" and 18", and 36 str 3 shots at 12".
I believe that means there is no range band where the vanguard are superior?
Then again the order for the guard should be factored in as 15 points, so the vanguard would have 2 more members for 21 shots against the guardsmen squad 18 at 24" or 18" and 36 shots at 12".
ph34r wrote: 5 vanguard are 40 and have 15 str 3 at 18" and 12" and 0 at 24".
10 guardsmen with an order are 40 and have 18 str 3 shots at 24" and 18", and 36 str 3 shots at 12".
I believe that means there is no range band where the vanguard are superior?
Then again the order for the guard should be factored in as 15 points, so the vanguard would have 2 more members for 21 shots against the guardsmen squad 18 at 24" or 18" and 36 shots at 12".
You're forgetting Guardsmen are BS 4 and Vanguard are BS3 and for the same number have 4 times the special weapons, the lasguns are are just gravy, the meat and potatoes are the special weapons. The closest guard can come to matching that is veterans who don't have a 4+ save and 6+ invuln. There's special weapons squads though who are still only BS 3 and 1 in 2 special weapons vs 2 in 5 so kind of a wash there but the SWS are cheaper.
gendoikari87 wrote: The damage output on skitarii are better. They are basically storm troopers without deepstrike capability. which is half the utility storm troopers have but hey.
Guard have some amazing strategems though that admech just plain does not have.
Really? Compared to rerolling Mortars and FRFSRF? I would like to see math on that because nothing I have seen demonstrates this point. I guess maybe against slightly tougher units, sure. But that's what the artillery is for.
one mortar or Heavy weapons squads. Heavy weapons squads are a different game entirely and used for entirely separate purposes.
ph34r wrote: Fair point. So optimal circumstances for the vanguard, 7 vanguard have 21 shots and hit 14.
Optimal circumstances, 9 guardsmen fire 36 shots at 12" with order FRFSRF, and hit with 18 of them.
no 10 Vanguard have 18 shots and 8 Plasma shots. 10 guardsmen have 36 lasgun shots and 2 plasma. That's the comparison. That's 16 vs 4 possible wounds on vehicles, terminators, monsters, ect and the vanguard will be more consistent
ph34r wrote: Fair point. So optimal circumstances for the vanguard, 7 vanguard have 21 shots and hit 14.
Optimal circumstances, 9 guardsmen fire 36 shots at 12" with order FRFSRF, and hit with 18 of them.
no 10 Vanguard have 18 shots and 8 Plasma shots. 10 guardsmen have 36 lasgun shots and 2 plasma. That's the comparison. That's 16 vs 4 possible wounds on vehicles, terminators, monsters, ect and the vanguard will be more consistent
Ok, first off, the math was for 7 vanguard, because 10 vanguard does not cost the same points as 10 guardsmen.
If you want to compare that though, it's 80 for the 10 vanguard and another 56 for the 4 calivers, so 136. 20 guardsmen with 2 plasmas and a commander is 124, so a bit less, but we can compare anyway.
18 las shots 12 hits and 8 plasma shots 5 hits... vs 40 las shots 20 hits and 4 plas shots 2 hits. The vanguard obviously are better for holding plasma, but nobody is taking plasma on their vanguard are they?
Exactly what we trying to say without having to resolve to the exact number. Skitarii are eilitsh cheap marines got invu and nice bs better survive. And canticles are build in not like orders. ( Shroud makes them even better while moving) don't forget to advance assault weapons for speed.
The problem as always with ad mech vs anything else is not 5 points or. Data tether for moral or how you buff guard vs skitarii . It's the option orders make them versatile able to be fast fall back actually do something in melee etc.
Still vnanguards or rangers can perform if they are 10 with rerolls or maybe str +1 or rerolling in melee etc.
It's guard better designed for their role with hq cot and synergy and esier buff if you want to make a strategy with troops. And the cp 5+/5+ bs our solo 6+.
Still they are close atm and you can all see the use. Depending on points and usage they can be of use. Mortar and lasguns only good v horde. Skitarii can be snipers for chrs plasma for bigger target even arc for some pre melee usage. Don't forget that -1 tough. So as I see it breachers vang ranger in various izes or gear can make some nasty combos with some dogmas.
As always with ad mech no we want single bigger units. 10 vanguard so you pay once for tether moral. Ranger snipers one unit for omnispex payed once.
Breachers of more are better for screener etc. Same goes for buffs. If you spend the cp for any reason defence or offence you better off with. Bigger unit.
And the changes stratagems etc makes me go that way rather than spamm lits.
Deversity with units not superb as said but can be optimised for situations. Or even try dogma spam like graia vanguard's stygies breathes ND Snipes Mar shooters etc.
Some relics need to we worked out won't agree that healing is o good.!!
Tip start picking canticles with a plan. Shroud if you gonna go second pick it not random it. Reroll ones in melee pick it for Dragoons when you go in for cp. Etc. Make a plan try to make it happen that simple buff can be really nice. So even if Cawl is not there you still got plan.
ph34r wrote: Fair point. So optimal circumstances for the vanguard, 7 vanguard have 21 shots and hit 14.
Optimal circumstances, 9 guardsmen fire 36 shots at 12" with order FRFSRF, and hit with 18 of them.
no 10 Vanguard have 18 shots and 8 Plasma shots. 10 guardsmen have 36 lasgun shots and 2 plasma. That's the comparison. That's 16 vs 4 possible wounds on vehicles, terminators, monsters, ect and the vanguard will be more consistent
Ok, first off, the math was for 7 vanguard, because 10 vanguard does not cost the same points as 10 guardsmen.
If you want to compare that though, it's 80 for the 10 vanguard and another 56 for the 4 calivers, so 136. 20 guardsmen with 2 plasmas and a commander is 124, so a bit less, but we can compare anyway.
18 las shots 12 hits and 8 plasma shots 5 hits... vs 40 las shots 20 hits and 4 plas shots 2 hits. The vanguard obviously are better for holding plasma, but nobody is taking plasma on their vanguard are they?
they may not take plasma now because the range is not that great but suddenly give them transports which protect them and get them there and voila. problem solved.
Take plasma take big unit with 3 . Take tether or omnisp. Use canticles and advance they can do enough in two turns with shroud and advance . Don't forget to pick rerolling ones where. You go shooting that overcharged plasma . Turn one Shroud pick run run second try for. Shroud or place in cover maybe get dragoon in. Then 3 Rd round your troop gun need to support with rerolling ones and the. From that point on A +1 str for -1 tough vang and some awesome priest dragon hits can work. Play the weapons we got they can bring results situational ofc. Need more need breachers always Dragoons maybe priests etc. You need to make enemy think many threats so you can at least get part of your plan to work. A signle vang unit same a dragoon won't bring results.
What I try to say is as with most rushing armies the plan work in waves. Either you spend cp and infiltrate more units that w don't have or I consider Dragoons or priests arrive first then waves inc. you better bet is vnguard and some good rolls and shoot while moving. Followed by slow breacher and snipers camping back.
Abjust accordingly. But you need to support you offensive if need. Same for defnc vang in front brechers etc. You robots will survive for two rounds of shooting.
I m already looking for different options. I don't think my Dragoons need to be infiltrated they got enough speed. I m considering other options atm slower moving units with a plan to back the up with Dragoons etc. Don't want to spend always my Dragoons as dead tar pit in enemy lines. -2 to get hit is enough to run the field while I can get some melee units faster in front. Maybe something g cheap like priests or rusttalkers. Vanguard can run. Dragoons can run and that's why I got stygies to decide what I want to send in or not!!!
So I m thinking to try the troop mix and get the Dragoons and vanguard running g since they are fast and deep strike a unit of 6 breachers and use the 1 cp defence . They gonna survive enough or shoot enemy vehicles to make a mess in enemy line before the rest of my units arrive. Or my counter priests pick a target to get a 3+ invu. Cheaper than termies.
ph34r wrote: Fair point. So optimal circumstances for the vanguard, 7 vanguard have 21 shots and hit 14.
Optimal circumstances, 9 guardsmen fire 36 shots at 12" with order FRFSRF, and hit with 18 of them.
no 10 Vanguard have 18 shots and 8 Plasma shots. 10 guardsmen have 36 lasgun shots and 2 plasma. That's the comparison. That's 16 vs 4 possible wounds on vehicles, terminators, monsters, ect and the vanguard will be more consistent
Ok, first off, the math was for 7 vanguard, because 10 vanguard does not cost the same points as 10 guardsmen.
If you want to compare that though, it's 80 for the 10 vanguard and another 56 for the 4 calivers, so 136. 20 guardsmen with 2 plasmas and a commander is 124, so a bit less, but we can compare anyway.
18 las shots 12 hits and 8 plasma shots 5 hits... vs 40 las shots 20 hits and 4 plas shots 2 hits. The vanguard obviously are better for holding plasma, but nobody is taking plasma on their vanguard are they?
Numbers are off.
136 points buy you 6 Radium Carbines and 4 Plasma Calivers. We're going to ignore the lack of an HQ for rerolls here.
127 points buy you 3 Bolters, 16 Lasguns, 2 Plasma Guns. You get to make an order, let's just assume it's FRFSRF.
3x S4, 32x S3, 2x S8 AP-3 D2 shots at BS4 at 24"
6x S4, 64x S3, 4x S8 AP-3 D2 shots at BS4 at 12"
vs.
6x S3 shots that do D2 on 6, 4x S8 AP-3 D2 shots at BS3 at 18"
If we're shooting infantry, the top is clearly better. I guess if we're shooting at vehicles, the plasma is better. But you know what is even better at hitting vehicles? A lascannon, which you can get for 20 points.
The raw shooting maths dosen't factor in that you don't start in optimal range
vanguard can advance and fire often meaning they can shoot T1 at 75% effectiveness as they can fire d6" into the opponents deployment zone. while if the enemy remain in their deployment zone most of the guards weapons do nothing meaning guardsman have to make up an entire rounds worth of shooting.
Then on return fire T1 the vanguard have 4+ 6++ and auto cover for 3+ (+if you are stygies -1 for the enemy to hit you)
The guardsman have a 5+ and are likely not in cover so take twice as many W amplified by moral losses which effect there large units more so by the time they can fire are not firing at full effectiveness
Take 10 bolt gun shots at 24" (pot shots from two tac squads Sgt with storm bolter and hw going elsewhere)
Against guard 2.96 dead (and a moral check)
Against stygies admech 1.11 dead
So T2 when both squads are in range guard have had their effectiveness reduced more than the admech
ph34r wrote: Fair point. So optimal circumstances for the vanguard, 7 vanguard have 21 shots and hit 14.
Optimal circumstances, 9 guardsmen fire 36 shots at 12" with order FRFSRF, and hit with 18 of them.
no 10 Vanguard have 18 shots and 8 Plasma shots. 10 guardsmen have 36 lasgun shots and 2 plasma. That's the comparison. That's 16 vs 4 possible wounds on vehicles, terminators, monsters, ect and the vanguard will be more consistent
Ok, first off, the math was for 7 vanguard, because 10 vanguard does not cost the same points as 10 guardsmen.
If you want to compare that though, it's 80 for the 10 vanguard and another 56 for the 4 calivers, so 136. 20 guardsmen with 2 plasmas and a commander is 124, so a bit less, but we can compare anyway.
18 las shots 12 hits and 8 plasma shots 5 hits... vs 40 las shots 20 hits and 4 plas shots 2 hits. The vanguard obviously are better for holding plasma, but nobody is taking plasma on their vanguard are they?
Numbers are off.
136 points buy you 6 Radium Carbines and 4 Plasma Calivers. We're going to ignore the lack of an HQ for rerolls here.
127 points buy you 3 Bolters, 16 Lasguns, 2 Plasma Guns. You get to make an order, let's just assume it's FRFSRF.
3x S4, 32x S3, 2x S8 AP-3 D2 shots at BS4 at 24"
6x S4, 64x S3, 4x S8 AP-3 D2 shots at BS4 at 12"
vs.
6x S3 shots that do D2 on 6, 4x S8 AP-3 D2 shots at BS3 at 18"
If we're shooting infantry, the top is clearly better. I guess if we're shooting at vehicles, the plasma is better. But you know what is even better at hitting vehicles? A lascannon, which you can get for 20 points.
Right point being the vanguard have the more flexibility, better damage output against a wider range of targets. Guardsmen aren't going to be a threat to everything they see. vanguard can. though i'd be tempted to run rangers over vanguard in such a formation. They also have more armor, survivability and damage per model, meaning you get more bang for your transport capacity. Especially if the triarios manifests still at a capacity of 20....but then if it manifests at 20, forget every forgeworld but mars, grab priests, activate wrath if you need a tank gone, if not point click delete when they get out.
gendoikari87 wrote: The damage output on skitarii are better. They are basically storm troopers without deepstrike capability. which is half the utility storm troopers have but hey.
Guard have some amazing strategems though that admech just plain does not have.
The issue is that lack of synergy. We need cheap fodder to protect our gunline and paying a premium for our low leadership infantry hurts this strategy. Guard does it right - they have synergy across faction. We are essentially Skorne for 40k. It is a bit infuriating.
Plus, the whole CP regen from the Company Commanders is nuts. We need to Wrath as many turns as possible and this gives us that much more reliably.
ph34r wrote: Fair point. So optimal circumstances for the vanguard, 7 vanguard have 21 shots and hit 14.
Optimal circumstances, 9 guardsmen fire 36 shots at 12" with order FRFSRF, and hit with 18 of them.
no 10 Vanguard have 18 shots and 8 Plasma shots. 10 guardsmen have 36 lasgun shots and 2 plasma. That's the comparison. That's 16 vs 4 possible wounds on vehicles, terminators, monsters, ect and the vanguard will be more consistent
Ok, first off, the math was for 7 vanguard, because 10 vanguard does not cost the same points as 10 guardsmen.
If you want to compare that though, it's 80 for the 10 vanguard and another 56 for the 4 calivers, so 136. 20 guardsmen with 2 plasmas and a commander is 124, so a bit less, but we can compare anyway.
18 las shots 12 hits and 8 plasma shots 5 hits... vs 40 las shots 20 hits and 4 plas shots 2 hits. The vanguard obviously are better for holding plasma, but nobody is taking plasma on their vanguard are they?
Numbers are off.
136 points buy you 6 Radium Carbines and 4 Plasma Calivers. We're going to ignore the lack of an HQ for rerolls here.
127 points buy you 3 Bolters, 16 Lasguns, 2 Plasma Guns. You get to make an order, let's just assume it's FRFSRF.
3x S4, 32x S3, 2x S8 AP-3 D2 shots at BS4 at 24"
6x S4, 64x S3, 4x S8 AP-3 D2 shots at BS4 at 12"
vs.
6x S3 shots that do D2 on 6, 4x S8 AP-3 D2 shots at BS3 at 18"
If we're shooting infantry, the top is clearly better. I guess if we're shooting at vehicles, the plasma is better. But you know what is even better at hitting vehicles? A lascannon, which you can get for 20 points.
Does that 127 points include the officer to issue the order? Because you cant do a straight comparison if it doesn't, not if we're comparing firepower for ppm.
---
I dunno why, but I tend to avoid lascannons. I dont like the all or nothing aspect of it. If each shot doesn't do 4-5 damage it feels like a waste of points. Neutron gets round this aspect by always being a minimum of 3 dmg, plasma gets round it by having more shots. Dont get me wrong when the dice are in your favour a wounding lascannon shot is devastating to a multi-wound model, but it doesn't feel special. I dont mind relying on dice favour to do something outrageous, but not when i've spent a lot of points just to get that chance.
Which is why i dislike ruststalkers rules at the moment: didn't role a 6 to wound? might as well not have been there. And even then, chord claw aside, it's only 1 dmg. The +1 str on the blades doesn't even alleviate the unlikely-to-wound-factor the transonic weaponry now has. It used to be much better if you could survive a round of combat (which you did because you had marine stats fnp and an invul) or rolled 6s on charge. Now you just have the 6s component. Anyway, i digress.
8th edition is all about the amount of dice you throw. Not only because it's better statistically as both Hordes and Anti-Horde weapons are the thing this edition, but it also averages out, so you don't have many outliers. So if you take the best statistically units you can and throw a lot of dice - you will usually win.
Which is why Astra Militarum has won 3 out of 3 biggest ITC tournements - Nova Open, Bao and SoCal Open
rvd1ofakind wrote: 8th edition is all about the amount of dice you throw. Not only because it's better statistically as both Hordes and Anti-Horde weapons are the thing this edition, but it also averages out, so you don't have many outliers. So if you take the best statistically units you can and throw a lot of dice - you will usually win.
Which is why Astra Militarum has won 3 out of 3 biggest ITC tournements - Nova Open, Bao and SoCal Open
Not just this edition - but really all dice games. Statistics are king. It is on the designers to find a way to make it more interesting than rolling buckets of dice and hoping the opponent rolls 1's... sadly, that seems to be what 40k is now more than ever and especially our faction *cough*Robots*cough*.
Can you guys name me the most often seen ranged weapons in the competitive scene? I got Bolter, Lasgun, LasCannon. And units they are attached to as I need the To Hit too
Automatically Appended Next Post: AdMech durability chart. Green is good. Red is bad. White is average. Yellow is characters. Their durability doesn't really matter as they are immortal until turn 4 or so
With shroudpsalm
Every time I have played vanguard they have gotten off at most 1 round of shooting and they usually aren't in range for Cawl's aura. Any points spent on their shooting is just a waste. The real deciding factor is those 30 point commanders that have baller relics and wltraits. Canticles have nothing on orders and point for point admech foot troops can't shoot as well as FRSF unless you have Cawl providing full rerolls. There is even that 'move real fast' order that lets you functionally advance twice.
We don't have enough CP for the deepstrike tricks to work, and the infiltrations isn't reliable due to usually not going first.
1) Whats our best bet in dealing with Mortarion / Magnus?
2) Normally I´m playing armoured Guard, so lots of mechanised infantry and Russes. Is there some good way to combine it with AdMech or should I just stick to solo Guard?
Right. I think a lot of these Guard and Skitarii comparisons fail to address the core issue: WHY are we taking these guys? What is their role in an AdMech army?
I have three objectives for my infantry:
1) Camp on objectives and hold them. This means quantity matters.
2) Deny deep strike through forward deployment ahead of the main army. Again, quantity matters.
3) Engage other infantry. The reason why I emphasize Mortars is because my troops don't have to move off objectives and their deployment to hit enemy troops.
4) Absorb wounds for characters and in CC. Wounds matter.
Skitarii do worse than Guard at all of these things. I also need them for the CP recycling Warlord anyway.
Considering something way off the wall here. We can make a brigade for super cheap. Like really really cheap. And I am liking the Cybernetica Datasmith as a 45 point, 4 wound terminator that does better against vehicles than people expect. What if SYGIES were the screen and CP farm for CADIA? Unlimited command points and infiltration of short range guys for days.
CADIA Spearhead Commander (5+ refund + relic of lost cadia) 5x1 Basilisk // about 10-30 leftover points for bolter, stubber, lascannon upgrades
This would provide a solid base of -1 to hit firepower around the TPD, 4 infiltrated dragoons, and spare enginseers to babysit the dragoons and the basilisks. Sure, there is no mortal wound machine coming from dakkastelons, but relic of lost cadia + the overlapping fields of fire strategem can make up for that shortfall. The 3x1 CDS are a surprise punch in melee and the rangers and vanguard can spread out as suicide screens.
EDIT: about skitarii again, something to consider is that they are only 5 guys. It is more likely that i can stuff them into something and out of LOS since only 5 of them instead of 10 guardsmen. Also, I think STYGIES and MARS onagers are flatly better point for point than Leman russes. They are more mobile and have invul saves and better accuracy (especially with unlimited CP to fuel the +2 every turn for 1 of them).
1) Whats our best bet in dealing with Mortarion / Magnus?
2) Normally I´m playing armoured Guard, so lots of mechanised infantry and Russes. Is there some good way to combine it with AdMech or should I just stick to solo Guard?
1) Six Wrathbots w/ Cawl - you can drop a Primarch a turn, just about. Add your Neutronagers to the mix and you should be good.
2) lol Usually AdMech borrows from Guard. Post-CA, not sure how much, but taking the aforementioned Cawl + Wrathbots is a solid addition in a Spearhead with some Neutronagers. Its a good half your army, but you can get a lot of mileage out of it.
1) Whats our best bet in dealing with Mortarion / Magnus?
2) Normally I´m playing armoured Guard, so lots of mechanised infantry and Russes. Is there some good way to combine it with AdMech or should I just stick to solo Guard?
1) Six Wrathbots w/ Cawl - you can drop a Primarch a turn, just about. Add your Neutronagers to the mix and you should be good.
2) lol Usually AdMech borrows from Guard. Post-CA, not sure how much, but taking the aforementioned Cawl + Wrathbots is a solid addition in a Spearhead with some Neutronagers. Its a good half your army, but you can get a lot of mileage out of it.
2) I know for cheap bubblewrap, CP and artillery. But since I´m not playing "normal guard" but rather full armoured / mechanised I thought there might be some nice synergies ;-)
Whats with adding Icarus Onager or Snipers? Are they worth it?
Wulfey wrote: Considering something way off the wall here. We can make a brigade for super cheap. Like really really cheap. And I am liking the Cybernetica Datasmith as a 45 point, 4 wound terminator that does better against vehicles than people expect. What if SYGIES were the screen and CP farm for CADIA? Unlimited command points and infiltration of short range guys for days.
CADIA Spearhead
Commander (5+ refund + relic of lost cadia)
5x1 Basilisk
// about 10-30 leftover points for bolter, stubber, lascannon upgrades
This would provide a solid base of -1 to hit firepower around the TPD, 4 infiltrated dragoons, and spare enginseers to babysit the dragoons and the basilisks. Sure, there is no mortal wound machine coming from dakkastelons, but relic of lost cadia + the overlapping fields of fire strategem can make up for that shortfall. The 3x1 CDS are a surprise punch in melee and the rangers and vanguard can spread out as suicide screens.
EDIT: about skitarii again, something to consider is that they are only 5 guys. It is more likely that i can stuff them into something and out of LOS since only 5 of them instead of 10 guardsmen. Also, I think STYGIES and MARS onagers are flatly better point for point than Leman russes. They are more mobile and have invul saves and better accuracy (especially with unlimited CP to fuel the +2 every turn for 1 of them).
Yeah, I think I pointed this out earlier when we were talking about how damn cheap the taxes got in our army. I would actually try to fit in more Ironstriders though. The army is going to rely a lot on Doctrina spam.
Suzuteo wrote: Right. I think a lot of these Guard and Skitarii comparisons fail to address the core issue: WHY are we taking these guys? What is their role in an AdMech army?
I have three objectives for my infantry:
1) Camp on objectives and hold them. This means quantity matters.
2) Deny deep strike through forward deployment ahead of the main army. Again, quantity matters.
3) Engage other infantry. The reason why I emphasize Mortars is because my troops don't have to move off objectives and their deployment to hit enemy troops.
4) Absorb wounds for characters and in CC. Wounds matter.
Skitarii do worse than Guard at all of these things. I also need them for the CP recycling Warlord anyway.
1) stygies AdMech are overall more durable and rangers most durable for the pts. Although guard are strong at this.
2) neither perform this roll well as neither deploy ahead of the army although since AdMech can advance and fire they ofter get further T1.
3) AdMech are better T1 going first guard become significantly better at 9"
4) stygies admech take 50% less W T1,T2 and then don't lose anywhere near the w to moral so are net better
5) advancing to take and hold enemy objectives favours vanguard who can advance and fire.
Here is the thing about Cawl rerolls, he was super good for two things: (1) units with 4+ to hit and (2) negating modifiers due to the typo. If I don't have the kastelons, icarus / neutrons usually hit on a 3+ with good target selection. 3+ rerolling 1s is ~73% while 3s rerolling is ~88%. That is a significant difference, but is it worth 115 points and giving up the -1 to be hit? Also, if you run the ballistari ball, then you don't even need cawl period because you are on 2s rerolling 1s. Phosphor kastelons are useless without Cawl, but the onagers and ballistari can get by because you have the CP to funnel +2 to hit into one of them a turn.
The other thing I like about the admech brigade + basilisks is the enginseer synergy. Every vehicle on the board can be repaired by 2 different guys.
Yeah my points are pretty whacky right now. But something to think about the ballistari ball, you can put it out of LOS maybe on the first turn, move it, and still be hitting on 2s rerolling 1s against a 0 modifier target.
EDIT: pretty sure CDS is 42 points 20 points base, 10 points for pistol, 12 for fist
A base terminator is: 26 + 12 + 2 = 40 points and he only has 2 wounds, while the CDS has 4 wounds.
1) stygies AdMech are overall more durable and rangers most durable for the pts. Although guard are strong at this.
2) neither perform this roll well as neither deploy ahead of the army although since AdMech can advance and fire they ofter get further T1.
3) AdMech are better T1 going first guard become significantly better at 9"
4) stygies admech take 50% less W T1,T2 and then don't lose anywhere near the w to moral so are net better
5) advancing to take and hold enemy objectives favours vanguard who can advance and fire.
1) Model count determines objective secured. In terms of points per model, Guard win flat out.
2) You forward deploy the infantry and you don't move them.
3) A Guard Mortar gets off way more shots over the course of a game than an entire unit of Vanguard will.
4) They still die in one turn. Guard tend to last two.
5) Dragoons do this much better.
1) Whats our best bet in dealing with Mortarion / Magnus?
2) Normally I´m playing armoured Guard, so lots of mechanised infantry and Russes. Is there some good way to combine it with AdMech or should I just stick to solo Guard?
1) Six Wrathbots w/ Cawl - you can drop a Primarch a turn, just about. Add your Neutronagers to the mix and you should be good.
2) lol Usually AdMech borrows from Guard. Post-CA, not sure how much, but taking the aforementioned Cawl + Wrathbots is a solid addition in a Spearhead with some Neutronagers. Its a good half your army, but you can get a lot of mileage out of it.
Elimination volley also works to get off even more mortal wounds and free overcharged plasma.
1) stygies AdMech are overall more durable and rangers most durable for the pts. Although guard are strong at this.
2) neither perform this roll well as neither deploy ahead of the army although since AdMech can advance and fire they ofter get further T1.
3) AdMech are better T1 going first guard become significantly better at 9"
4) stygies admech take 50% less W T1,T2 and then don't lose anywhere near the w to moral so are net better
5) advancing to take and hold enemy objectives favours vanguard who can advance and fire.
1) Model count determines objective secured. In terms of points per model, Guard win flat out.
2) You forward deploy the infantry and you don't move them.
3) A Guard Mortar gets off way more shots over the course of a game than an entire unit of Vanguard will.
4) They still die in one turn. Guard tend to last two.
5) Dragoons do this much better.
1) survival determines objective secured more frequently you don't hold an objective if your dead. It is very rare to have objective control determined by most models. model per pts is part of that equation but so is -1 to hit at 12" +1sv and auto cover for 2 turns and vulnerability to moral checks. guard lose overall
2) neither starts outside the deployment zone and you could just as easily forward deploy vanguard
3) infantry squad 1 mortar fires Avg 3.5 shots per turn or 17.5 shots across a 5 turn game 1 unit of vanguard fires 15 shots T1 d6" into enemy deployment zone so by T2 your argument fails if 1 model survives
4) My experience would counter that as does the maths factoring in stygies and shroudspalm +1sv and moral, vanguard and rangers are more survivable T1 and T2 than guard even given there higher W count
5) They are complementary due to the -1T and high volume low strength fire. I'm not suggesting an infantry only army but the ability to advance and fire is huge when trying to take their objectives
I take guard for orders and cp gains. Won't change my cheap battalion cp generator and troops with orders. They are superb at what they do.
But if can't take guard cause I play solo ad mech or cause tour rules prohibid or usually in team only one can take each faction.
Then atm I will definitely use rangers vanguard's and breachers.
And I am already making my abjusted lists with this in mind.
I won't take basilisk exactly cause of bs4. It's bad. And it's not ad mech. Yes you got better chance with a huge balistarii lasc group ofc cause you buff it.
If we gonna talk brigade then 10+ staff priests must be included changing one datasmith. 160 points can make it happen even vs Mortarion if they get the chance and got 3 spare cp. Even with out double fight still. I usually find a char multi charge and there you go . Priests usually last 3 rounds inside enemy lines if you pop +3 first round.
Basilisk are stationary if I am to return to dakka line onager better Cawl better. I prefer to move and shoot than sit and los shoot. Get 6 onager 3/3 but with one 4+ lasc balistarii you should be fine.
Arc rifles in the mix of troops can provide a cheap punch. Taser for vanguard alpha. Use what you got.
Breachers screen move shoot hold obj infiltrate behind enemy lines a unit of 6 with 1 cp survives battles.
Consider the dominus with breachers and technomartyr as you footsloger. No need to infiltrate datasmith . Priests can do it . Breachers can camp important obj or relic fights dragons can walk the field and yes special weapons teams like 10 man vanguard plasma Omni can be infiltrated extremely effective.
1) survival determines objective secured more frequently you don't hold an objective if your dead. It is very rare to have objective control determined by most models. model per pts is part of that equation but so is -1 to hit at 12" +1sv and auto cover for 2 turns and vulnerability to moral checks. guard lose overall
2) neither starts outside the deployment zone and you could just as easily forward deploy vanguard
3) infantry squad 1 mortar fires Avg 3.5 shots per turn or 17.5 shots across a 5 turn game 1 unit of vanguard fires 15 shots T1 d6" into enemy deployment zone so by T2 your argument fails if 1 model survives
4) My experience would counter that as does the maths factoring in stygies and shroudspalm +1sv and moral, vanguard and rangers are more survivable T1 and T2 than guard even given there higher W count
5) They are complementary due to the -1T and high volume low strength fire. I'm not suggesting an infantry only army but the ability to advance and fire is huge when trying to take their objectives
1) Absolutely false. I don't think my Rangers ever successfully contested an objective against other infantry based on their survival ability. In fact, the dominance of Horrors, Conscripts, and Boyz has taught us anything, it's that it's numbers that make objective secured a reality. (Most of the time, my artillery has to clear the objective, and my models just park themselves on top of it.)
2) Again, you don't want to move your infantry, especially not in the first 3 rounds or so when you need to deny deep strike, stop assault units, or block movement.
3) Ah, I meant Rangers, but I can probably see Mortars outperforming Vanguard too. Consistent 48" indirect fire support is super useful.
4) Most anti-horde weapons clean Skitarii in one turn.
5) They are not complementary. You can't advance and fight, and Vanguard are pretty awful at getting down the board.
1) conscripts are dead see chapter approved as to horrors and boys if they are in CC with your guardsman they are not holding the objective by numbers anymore than the vanguard would be
2) if your purpose is forcing the enemy to deepstrike as far away from your objectives as possible you need to advance out of your deployment zone you do however need to leave some models back usually the artillery
3) they absolutely are useful especially backfield but they do not come close to matching vanguard for firepower or survivability but you would be better off taking hws over infantry with 1 mortar if that's what you intended or else you waste most of the squads effectiveness neither infantry or vanguard perform well backfield
4) any antihoard weapon that can kill on Avg 3 vanguard who then lose d6-4 to moral will on Avg kill 9 guardsman (kill 6 d6-1 die to moral) vanguard are not invulnerable but neither are guard. They are however more survivable T1 and T2
5) Turn1 you advance and shoot turn 2 you may shoot and charge or you may advance or you may retreat depends what the enemy does but should you get in the same fight as dragoons that -1T can be quite a buff. I'm also not saying they are good at getting down the board but they are better at it than guardsman which was the point of comparison.
1) Guardsmen are the new Conscripts, and the same principles for why they were so effective apply.
2) There's no point to advancing out of the deployment zone. Also, what about when you need to castle?
3) Again, the improvement in survivability is insignificant. Yes, if you get Shroudpsalm, you match Guardsmen durability, and if you get Stygies, you surpass them. But if Guardsmen get cover, they are close to matching you. (Also, once they get into Rapid Fire range and you lose Stygies, you're screwed.)
This all being said, the crux of my argument is this: Guardsmen are better because having more bodies is a material advantage, regardless of how much more marginally durable Skitarii are. I can literally run up to an objective, shoot, and not even kill anything, but get objective secured. (That is literally what people were doing with Conscripts and Horrors.) Furthermore, Guardsmen have access to a 48" weapon, meaning moving up the field is not a requirement, and they can be threatening to other infantry while staying out of range.
4) Nobody is going to kill 3 Vanguard and call it a day. But aside from that, refer to the previous comment.
5) Turn 2 all of your Vanguard are dead. And honestly, unless we're fighting T8 vehicles, the -1T isn't terribly relevant for Dragoons; T5 stuff gets handled by Kastelans. >_>
The new sister's strategem requires you to remove the unit from the field before employing the strategem ... RIP celestine. All basilisks now. To Suzuteo, I think the template list is now something like this:
MARS spearhead Cawl + 5x Dakkabots + 3x Onager 1x4 Dragoons (either MARS or STYGIES depending on how you value CP and the book keeping of multiple forgeworlds)
CADIA battalion (need them CP) 2x Commander, 3x10 guardsmen, 3x Basilisk Grand strategist WLT, Kurov's default relic, Relic of Cadia for 1CP depending on opponent
EDIT: the only real flexibility here is dropping 1 Onager to add 2 Dragoons.
My Conscripts + Commisar + Astropath + Celestine + ESBattery SoCal open list was out and out stronger than this.
EDIT2: on the subject of where to put those last 40 points, I lean towards cognis heavy stubbers. For 5 points, it is hard to beat 36" 3xstr4 shots that full reroll to hit. No matter what i put on those guardsmen, it is 4+ rerolling 1s at best (unless relic of lost cadia ... then okay yeah). 3x mortars are comparable to 3x heavy stubbers, but they are less mobile and less accurate and have an opportunity cost of 1 lasgun.
EDIT3: alright, one good argument for the mortars is morale management. Put the wounds on the mortar first if you expect a tough morale roll.
I rarely find myself moving my infantry too much unless I have set them up to move. But yes, this seems to be the best mix of stuff. I think 6 Dragoons is ideal because I am going Stygies. It is CP intensive though.
Ok it's becoming pointless. We can't say it 200 times. Obviously with a reduced cost our troops can be of use. With up s and downs.
If we can take guard ofc we will for the 5+/5+ wont change. The number of bodies the area they cover and orders. Move move ,first rank SR , and fall back. Won't change and it's guard ok.
Ofc for super competitive better take best from all armies.
Guard troops marine elites and mech vehicles Im with you.
But as I said there are many times friendly games and test games or team tours that you don't want can't take or you don't want to bother your opponent with heavy lists.
A Graia battalion it's the way to go. 200-250 points is cheap provides bodies you can take group of 6 vanguards utilize shooting in melee so arc rangers matters. Superb and can be a great tool.
Now if you got a detachment stygies any you can use the troop slot for more expensive units prefer multi wounds. No need to make it a battalion. 1*3-6 breachers as second line defence mkes a great choise . You must take your snipers as well in stygies as a long range or second line for your lines rocks. Same for balistarii in your fields anything from ongers to balistarii breachers snipers even hq that -1 Is best used 12 "+ deep strike enemy.
So guard Graia optimal front lines then Stygies. Optional if we talking seriously (yes also -1 AP but I m talking usable dogmas)
- We moan about the lack of transports to protect our vulnerable troops
- We spend a lot of time screening our CawlWall of Dakkabots and Onagers
Alternate option which I've had some success with... take a 100pt Imperial Bunker.
Had good success with it again this week, in a tough game vs guard... he brought infantry, shadowsword, Pask, russes, basilisks... it's a tournament practice game.
Deployed the bunker containing my 10 Fulgurite electropriests. Rremember you get a 9" move out of a transport so your bunker is creating a 20" ish wide zone where the fulgurites can leap out and smash face without even worrying about a charge roll. If you assume a 7" charge, they project a 3 foot diameter threat bubble... which is a huge "denial zone".
Also, the opponent will find easy to forget about this. Remember the imperial bunker looks like scenery, particularly on tables with lots of other GW buildings. Don't paint it all bright and funky, do it grey or green or brown or something. I've had people blindly walk into smashface zone, forgetting I had the fulgurites in play.
I put my Kastelans and at least one objective within this zone.
In the above game, he moved some Bullgryns into the zone on the way to assault me. Priests wiped the squad and got their 3+ 5++ up and running. From that point on, they are something that really needs to be dealt with.
The downside of this tactic is that if you are playing against a static gunline, your fulgurites are going to be way less useful. In that case they are only really good to protect against deep strike or jump on objectives.
Anyway, if you have the models it's a fun little tactic. If we get the Triaros or the Macrocarid then you might as well just drive them closer, of course!
I'd kill for the Macrocarid. Just because it looks amazing. I don't know if GW will give us that one in FoC.
As for bunker Fulgurites... I like that. A lot.
I'm going to tinker with the idea now.
EDIT: Looking at fortifications, the bunker is good - but only holds 10 dudes. I think going for 20 might be best, in case we want to do a fat squad of Priests or load up a 10-man with some Skitarii to shoot out of it. So that would mean the Bastion might be ideal, mostly because it is T9 20W over the Firestorm Redoubt which is only T8. That single point seems small, but it makes a decent difference in to-wound, making even SC Plasma need 5's and Lascannons 4's, which might be vital.
Imperial Bastion 4x Heavy Bolters, Quad Gun [222]
It also has 12 S5 shots from the HBs and the Quad Gun for anti-air work. It won't likely kill much, but for the price, it isn't bad. And disembarking is within 3", meaning with 6" movement, we have more like 10" of spread from the Bastion and then we make our charges. That is a huge denial area, since no one wants to eat a charge from Fulgurites. My issue is that I have to find 222pt... meaning I lose something important.
Verviedi wrote: I believe I saw a Macrocarid in my FoC image collection. I could be wrong, of course,
I couldn't find anything indicating it was in. I do believe I saw an Ordinatus though... which will be ridiculously overpriced, if the CA points are any indicator.
Suzuteo wrote: 1) Guardsmen are the new Conscripts, and the same principles for why they were so effective apply.
2) There's no point to advancing out of the deployment zone. Also, what about when you need to castle?
3) Again, the improvement in survivability is insignificant. Yes, if you get Shroudpsalm, you match Guardsmen durability, and if you get Stygies, you surpass them. But if Guardsmen get cover, they are close to matching you. (Also, once they get into Rapid Fire range and you lose Stygies, you're screwed.)
This all being said, the crux of my argument is this: Guardsmen are better because having more bodies is a material advantage, regardless of how much more marginally durable Skitarii are. I can literally run up to an objective, shoot, and not even kill anything, but get objective secured. (That is literally what people were doing with Conscripts and Horrors.) Furthermore, Guardsmen have access to a 48" weapon, meaning moving up the field is not a requirement, and they can be threatening to other infantry while staying out of range.
4) Nobody is going to kill 3 Vanguard and call it a day. But aside from that, refer to the previous comment.
5) Turn 2 all of your Vanguard are dead. And honestly, unless we're fighting T8 vehicles, the -1T isn't terribly relevant for Dragoons; T5 stuff gets handled by Kastelans. >_>
1) No it goes back to survivability and conscripts were 25% more survivable for there pts which i's why they were successful. Guardsman wIll see a lot of play no one disputes that but if your goal is survival admech studies are better.
2) Castleing us nit the only strategy and even then I want as wide a moat as I can
3) if I run guard I take at least 6 infantry squads it's exceptionally rare to have even 50% in cover and any competent opponent is going to shoot the out of cover squads first. Your still 33% more survicable without stygies and less effected by moral making it very close. If they are within 12" you need to be moving to assault or back to 18" it's not a good place to be
Extra bodies is an advantage so is better sv -1to hit and auto cover. The 48 inch weapon never makes the points back unless the enemy come to you and let the rest of the squad fire and your entire argument is predicted on only of value if you castle. Durability is vital conscripts were successful because of durability for pts nerf comissars not as durable less popular nerf pts unplayable.
4) most players will keep shooting till they run out if shots point is if you kill 6-7 guardsman you likely wipe the squad in moral and if you kill 3 vanguard which is the equivalent you likely don't so the enemy can move on and shoot the next guards quad while they send more shots into the vanguard
5) You seem to work on a principLe T2 all vanguard are dead and all guardsman are alive you see nothing falty in this logic given guardsman being less durable . I don't Kastelans as I don't run cawl I'm not Mars.
My 30k army looks at me every day on the shelf and sighs sadly in exasperation.
Should I wait for that release or start planning my admech army now?
We still have no idea when it will hit, I've heard some rumors of February but who knows at this point, I mean you will save a lot of money waiting since I sure most of the 30k stuff will replace any of the current stuff unless they cost it badly and the 8th rules are bad which given how some view the current ad mech codex is quite possibly likely. I still have hope and think we are not in to bad of a position at present either especially with the points reductions in CA.
I run kastellans without cawl. They're exceptional at clearing fodder and wearing down pretty much anything. Even just two of them plays on your opponents mind, especially if you switch them to conqueror, the added pressure of those 36 str 6 -2ap shots is enough to worry plenty of people.
You're all too impatient lol. Fires is coming in 2018 is the last official update we have, it's certainly not going to be any time soon. We can surely speculate what will come over from 30k, but for all we know all the models might be new! Some of the mechanicum FW stuff just doesn't quite fit the aesthetic of 40k's admech imo. Especially the Triaros, tank tracks yes, weird 60s mafia car look-a-like, no.
Octovol wrote: Some of the mechanicum FW stuff just doesn't quite fit the aesthetic of 40k's admech imo. Especially the Triaros, tank tracks yes, weird 60s mafia car look-a-like, no.
This is a beef I have with it too. The Macrocarid fits. Most of the rest doesn't. I'll have to find a way to mod stuff with the existing range so it looks more cohesive.
I'm impressed how pessimistic people are being given the upcoming chapter approved price cuts. We've now got cheaper sources of everything.
Our basic infantry are solid at 7/8 points, we don't have the bodies of IG, but at only 35/40 points for a basic squad they are still great. For a 3 point upcharge you get rangers instead of guardsmen, with a better gun, bs, armor save, plus the canticles and 5 man unit to make getting cover much easier than an IG squad, and while we have the same leadership keeping them at 5 man units means we are less likely to take significant morale losses. Oh and our sarge gets a rifle, which is minor but nice. At 35 points for a basic unit it's also amongst the cheapest troop filler in the game, only Gretchen and Brimstones can be had for less at 30 points for a basic unit.
I know people are upset about transports still, but really why? Infiltrators are now cheap enough to be compareable to a hypothetical set of corpus priests in a transport, and the now cheaper destroyers have a similar relationship to plasma vanguard. I get if it's an aesthetic thing, but it's not going to actually make the army better, unless it happens to be a particularly shooty transport. I just don't really see the appeal balance wise, unless you are desperate to use fulgerites/rustalkers and hate Stygies.
I maintain our codex wasn't as bad as people claimed balance wise (externally at least, internally was more of an issue) and chapter approved looks to be tweaking those issues as well.
SilverAlien wrote: I'm impressed how pessimistic people are being given the upcoming chapter approved price cuts. We've now got cheaper sources of everything.
Our basic infantry are solid at 7/8 points, we don't have the bodies of IG, but at only 35/40 points for a basic squad they are still great. For a 3 point upcharge you get rangers instead of guardsmen, with a better gun, bs, armor save, plus the canticles and 5 man unit to make getting cover much easier than an IG squad, and while we have the same leadership keeping them at 5 man units means we are less likely to take significant morale losses. Oh and our sarge gets a rifle, which is minor but nice. At 35 points for a basic unit it's also amongst the cheapest troop filler in the game, only Gretchen and Brimstones can be had for less at 30 points for a basic unit.
I know people are upset about transports still, but really why? Infiltrators are now cheap enough to be compareable to a hypothetical set of corpus priests in a transport, and the now cheaper destroyers have a similar relationship to plasma vanguard. I get if it's an aesthetic thing, but it's not going to actually make the army better, unless it happens to be a particularly shooty transport. I just don't really see the appeal balance wise, unless you are desperate to use fulgerites/rustalkers and hate Stygies.
I maintain our codex wasn't as bad as people claimed balance wise (externally at least, internally was more of an issue) and chapter approved looks to be tweaking those issues as well.
Useless units in the INDEX are still useless after chapter approved. That's what I have a problem with...
You deploy from the bunker within 3", so about a 4" footprint. Plus movement, for 6". Then charging for ~7" on average. So about 17" in all directions. So if you put the bunker down in the right spot, it is a huge area denial option.
If I am going bunker, there better be 9 kataphron destroyers in there. Striaght up deathball when it pops out. Get in 1 round of shooting, hope you win right there.
Wulfey wrote: If I am going bunker, there better be 9 kataphron destroyers in there. Striaght up deathball when it pops out.
Kataphrons are crap though. At least the Fulgurites can kill stuff on the charge and then become an even more credible threat! Plus, slinging mortal wounds.
Pop the destroyers out of the bunker, 1CP Binharic Override, 2CP wrath of mars on bots, 2CP elimination volley, 1CP left over to reroll when bunker blows up
Win or lose in a single round of shooting. This list can kill 2 daemon primarchs with average shooting if they don't have -1 to be hit. If they do, you are only killing 1.
Great cost. Yes bastion I'm used in various cases early on but.
You are missing the point here. Even armies with transports won't get many transports in lists. Yes transports can help same as buildings. And I used a bunker extensively in 7th with hatch and ammo etc. But.
All the above where part of a plan. You army was able to play xtrmely well and the canticlex where nice and you had a chance.
You started with good bs and shooting and finished of with some melee buffs. Atm as most edition got buffed we got badly nerfed.
The canticles are sub par. I'd prefer a fall back shoot any day that's str +1 or that crap electromancy.
We don't have abilities on units . And that is bad and you don't need to ask for new books or cry about it. Ad mech is crap atm.
Vs mortals. A stupid invu save won't see us vs the mortal smite spamm.
Since we can't have Onagers in unit and we practically end up with 13+ units we go second eliminating the cover save we get as canticle. Going second is huge and there is where transport comes in play.
Tranport main role is to get hits big enough so your troops won't and give you mobility with points. Now we pay with cp for both.
And it's stressing any competitive games we get since you don't have a reroll for a dice any more. So few lways counted every single one it's stupid.
That the problem you don't take inq. For that -2 toughness we did with vanguard grenades etc. You don't have ws and bs buff on skitarii by default no fearless no super relics nothing. When they released the army y they took out all flavor. Infiltrators had the aura and rustalkers we all had blind chance for melee defence and fnp. That's why we where T3. Now the 2 wounds are v low even the 3 wounds Re low with no fnp we are open to all enemy plans. All. A simple -1 -2 AP army hurt us. We are paper and we don't deliver so much dakka to be able to change it.
Yes Cawl Robots that's it. Cheap troops ok help a bit in detachmenfs but will not change one damn bit. My lists all got invalid with earth change and I got 50-70 points off my lists so what? Instead of 10 troop I get 15 and?
I see us going second we got the tools to go second and take advantage of it. That's how you should consider his. Go second use los for ongers and everything able to move shoot etc. First line troops second line -1 to hit the. Robots. Going second you LL defend with aegis no matter what. Etc and shroud active.
From that point on we are forced to play with stygies a detachment with LL options. You must have priests breachers Dragoons always in there even snipers and use all you can depending on the fight.
Troops you need to work that as well stationary rangers need to have and be in cover . Use shroud to move troop in mid field . You got stronger troop few but better play them los etc.
You need to start taking more durable units . Like breachers like Onagers robots Dragoons etc. Invest.
Make a three layer defence with LL your weapons . Graia vanguard's stygies breachers etc. Gems for defence .
This will easily give you the two maybe 3 rounds you need.
That's ad mech atm and v v hard to play anything else. Same goes for a knight. Take one better two use them maybe you get two rounds maybe. If you use proper shields.
Same for any other guard imperium building soup. If I was to use priests like counter is don't need the bastion or bunker and won't pay 200 for it. The issue is to fit them and play them offensive.
If you don't play robots and Cawl. You need stygies and priests no matter what. Or if you feel gambling Lucius .
I play 2 battalions stygies ryza with plasma!. Not bad not superb.
You can solo Brigade now mars stygies . Etc. There are some valid options now we got cheap things. Try them out they are not so bad. Find what suits you and as we saw all point we are not that bad point wise. Just make a plan with cp and play it. If you go static Cawl robots if you don't the. You need to move split armies split troops use you weapons .
You can't play the same all the time! Priest must be played. They got fnp usable with -1 for second line of defence . With technomartyr scary overwatch good chance to live cheap. There are some options not great but in the end as the rest of armies all got issue you can use stygies Lucius as detachments with your options able to decide them v each enemy that versatile option must be used .
I saw Reece saying eldar is a Finese army and I will add ad mech.
Tip . I use a Ryza plasma battalion and a balistarii lasc 1*5 stygies tribute to Suzuteo. There is a cognis overwatch stratagem that allow cognis weapons to fire full ballistic . Awesome.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Useless units in the INDEX are still useless after chapter approved. That's what I have a problem with...
I disagree, I'd argue that chapter approved made two marginal choices viable (destroyers/infiltrators), if not must haves, and made two more as fixed as mere point changes can do (breachers, fulgerites).
For the first, I think destroyers are now cheap enough you can justify using a unit to boost your Kastalens with the stratagem. Yes it isn't much of a role but it's basically all they can have so long as Kastalens basically end up fighting for the same versatile slot efficient heavy weapon role.
Infiltrators were also a more marginal unit that was mainly held back by being just a touch too expensive, and the point cost reduction is enough to make me feel they are a decent option for some additional anti infantry deepstriking fun for anyone who isn't using corpus priests with the deepstrike stratagem.
At 40 ppm for arc claw/rifle the breachers is about as fixed as it can be. It's three space marine tacticals stacked on top of each other with better weaponry and s/t plus worse bs/ws. It gives us a tougher troop choice that is expensive but not to the point of absurdity. More bodies is generally more useful, but having the option is nice.
Fulgerites are just bad conceptually. They have a super swingy ability that doesn't trigger till they wipe their first enemy unit, they are slow melee troops in an army with few options for improved mobility, they don't synergize well with the better canticles (the one that gives cover or the rerolling 1s to shoot), and their main role appears to be dealing mortal wounds in melee, and exceptionally niche role to begin with. They just don't fit with the army on a basic level and you can't do much to fix besides starting over with them. As it stands they have some usage with the Stygies stratagem to get an early first turn charge, but that's really all they will ever be good for tbh.
So I think they made a decent pass at some of the weaker units, and also tweaked our HQ/troops situation a bit more which was welcome. A few units could've used more point cuts (rust stalkers), and ironstriders still struggle to find a role that is actually needed unlike the really fast heavy weapon platform it currently is.
Silver, I have used Fulgurites as a screen and counter-assault unit to pretty good success. They can't be ignored, which is a boon. I just wish they were 14ppm, so they didn't feel like such an expensive unit that can easily get wiped from shooting. C'est la vie. Once we get any transports at all, they will be golden.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Silver, I have used Fulgurites as a screen and counter-assault unit to pretty good success. They can't be ignored, which is a boon. I just wish they were 14ppm, so they didn't feel like such an expensive unit that can easily get wiped from shooting. C'est la vie. Once we get any transports at all, they will be golden.
I just feel like I get more mileage from ruststalkers as they are faster and can benefit from cover canticle so they are less vulnerable to shooting. They just seem to work better with admech as it currently exists as far as I've seen, in the same basic role as what you described.
3 rustalkers, or a Dragoon?
1 kataphron destroyer, or a Dragoon?
8 fulgurites, or 2 Dragoons?
3 breaches, or 2 Dragoons?
5 infiltrators, or 2 Dragoons?
Arguably the destroyer has a role that the Dragoon doesn't eat. But the rest of them ... give me the dragoons.
3 rustalkers, or a Dragoon?
1 kataphron destroyer, or a Dragoon?
8 fulgurites, or 2 Dragoons?
3 breaches, or 2 Dragoons?
5 infiltrators, or 2 Dragoons?
Arguably the destroyer has a role that the Dragoon doesn't eat. But the rest of them ... give me the dragoons.
1. Dragoon
2. Dragoon
3. Dragoons
4. Dragoons
5. I wish infiltrators were actually good because they are so cool, but probably the Dragoons
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Silver, I have used Fulgurites as a screen and counter-assault unit to pretty good success. They can't be ignored, which is a boon. I just wish they were 14ppm, so they didn't feel like such an expensive unit that can easily get wiped from shooting. C'est la vie. Once we get any transports at all, they will be golden.
I just feel like I get more mileage from ruststalkers as they are faster and can benefit from cover canticle so they are less vulnerable to shooting. They just seem to work better with admech as it currently exists as far as I've seen, in the same basic role as what you described.
Fulgurites can benefit from cover, depending on the AP. And they are much better for the price. Ruststalkers are absurdly overpriced.
I just wish Ruststalkers had some AP... Even just AP-1 would test me to try and make them work. I cant ever see myself taking them over discosticks for their counter assault role though.
I try to use them... Cause they are so cool, but many... they always let me down.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Useless units in the INDEX are still useless after chapter approved. That's what I have a problem with...
I disagree, I'd argue that chapter approved made two marginal choices viable (destroyers/infiltrators), if not must haves, and made two more as fixed as mere point changes can do (breachers, fulgerites).
For the first, I think destroyers are now cheap enough you can justify using a unit to boost your Kastalens with the stratagem. Yes it isn't much of a role but it's basically all they can have so long as Kastalens basically end up fighting for the same versatile slot efficient heavy weapon role.
Infiltrators were also a more marginal unit that was mainly held back by being just a touch too expensive, and the point cost reduction is enough to make me feel they are a decent option for some additional anti infantry deepstriking fun for anyone who isn't using corpus priests with the deepstrike stratagem.
At 40 ppm for arc claw/rifle the breachers is about as fixed as it can be. It's three space marine tacticals stacked on top of each other with better weaponry and s/t plus worse bs/ws. It gives us a tougher troop choice that is expensive but not to the point of absurdity. More bodies is generally more useful, but having the option is nice.
Fulgerites are just bad conceptually. They have a super swingy ability that doesn't trigger till they wipe their first enemy unit, they are slow melee troops in an army with few options for improved mobility, they don't synergize well with the better canticles (the one that gives cover or the rerolling 1s to shoot), and their main role appears to be dealing mortal wounds in melee, and exceptionally niche role to begin with. They just don't fit with the army on a basic level and you can't do much to fix besides starting over with them. As it stands they have some usage with the Stygies stratagem to get an early first turn charge, but that's really all they will ever be good for tbh.
So I think they made a decent pass at some of the weaker units, and also tweaked our HQ/troops situation a bit more which was welcome. A few units could've used more point cuts (rust stalkers), and ironstriders still struggle to find a role that is actually needed unlike the really fast heavy weapon platform it currently is.
Infiltrators were OK to begin with. Breachers still remain unuseable. Durability wise they are outclassed by dragoons against every weapon.
Dragoons are faster and do a lot more damage when you want them to as well(1cp)
Weapons wise, torsion is a complete joke and Arc Rifle is a very illogical weapon. It's a str 6 AP2 weapon that is supposed to fight Toughness 6-8 vehicles with 3+ armour save. What were they smoking when they made that?
3 rustalkers, or a Dragoon?
1 kataphron destroyer, or a Dragoon?
8 fulgurites, or 2 Dragoons?
3 breaches, or 2 Dragoons?
5 infiltrators, or 2 Dragoons?
Arguably the destroyer has a role that the Dragoon doesn't eat. But the rest of them ... give me the dragoons.
1. Dragoon
2. Dragoon
3. Dragoons
4. Dragoons
5. I wish infiltrators were actually good because they are so cool, but probably the Dragoons
It just isn't a close call. Half the codex is worse than a dragoon. Everything that is melee or short range is flatly inferior. Melee kastelons were like ... almost sort of competitive back in the index days ... but now with the Doctrina dragoons make everything else look like crap in melee. When are sicarians ever going to match exploding 4s that deal str8, -1, d2. What a weapon profile!
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Silver, I have used Fulgurites as a screen and counter-assault unit to pretty good success. They can't be ignored, which is a boon. I just wish they were 14ppm, so they didn't feel like such an expensive unit that can easily get wiped from shooting. C'est la vie. Once we get any transports at all, they will be golden.
I just feel like I get more mileage from ruststalkers as they are faster and can benefit from cover canticle so they are less vulnerable to shooting. They just seem to work better with admech as it currently exists as far as I've seen, in the same basic role as what you described.
Fulgurites can benefit from cover, depending on the AP. And they are much better for the price. Ruststalkers are absurdly overpriced.
Feel free to tell me how Fulgurites can benefit from cover when 6+/5++
I feel we heading back wards. Spamm fliers cause they are cheat. Ok dragoons are superb won't win solo games.
It ok a good nic big unit cheap -2 blambla . We got at least 6 in any list ok if not more. Can they shoot? Can they work in groups of two roaming all map? They re effective as a big harashing group or screening group ok. We need to play all the game.
You need and volume of fire and toughness to survive and range guns and more units. Hence we take Robots nd Onagers. For making specific roles. Anti mass anti tank. Unfortunately those units won't work solo as effective as with support. And that is valid for all armies.
120 point breachers are stock marines. Worse in options better for survival T5! It's not overpriced it has a role as tankish unit. And it's weapon forget arc weapon as it was. You got a str 6 weapon why is it bad? For it's role and obj secure troop slot....
Can camp building ND obj and Dragoons can't even charge them.
Can footslog and tbh it's the only good unit to team with a dominus use melee canticles move shoot infiltrate with dominus use defence gem for relic mission etc. Their role has nothing to do with dragoon. And you are not forced to take it.
Nor it's the plan to use elimination volley for Robots. No the command point are to be used for wrath of mars and Cawl.
Elimination volley was made to be mainly taken as a no Cawl non Robot list.
An easy example Ryz destroyers with one unit of robots etc. Or agripinaa breachers again the same or those ki d of combos. Making. Dominus almost effective as Cawl. And spend cp out side of mars.
I don't want to play broken crap. Nor I LL make a plan to shoot once robots with bs 3+ rerollable and wrath. 5 cp = one time. I don care cause enemy got stratagems as well and can play 6 rounds and most likely will.
Dragoons are over invested in more than 3-4/ group can't move them properly while the gem benefits bigger units. Balistarii can be 6 and benefit from buff but the buff is not so important.
While a group of 6 breachers in an objective will definitely hold a relic with the defence stratagem and perform in melee s well with default 4 attacks each. Obj secure. 130 points vs 120 for 2 Dragoons. And will shoot 2 each then melee 3-4 each.. it's different role but it's not bad troop as T5.
Same goes for snipers. Some do t use them I do. They have won me games are they super cost effective no. But I use them cause it's one of the best snipers in game and for me !
I'm not gonna convince anyone nor I'm trying to. I just said when I make an ad mech battalion. I use find usage for
1*3-6 breachers
1-2*5 snipers omnispex
1*10 vanguard taser tether
And arc rifles team with arc pistol in various forms.
Seems to fill roles for me when I take troops.
10 vanguard Graia in front with enginseer block many things and -1 tough helps. 6 roll not to die can be of use and deny stratgem can save me. While my second stygies breachers can be a perfect screener counter ND small transport etc vehicle killer.
While snipers keep shooting even 30" ranger shots shoot in my lines as antihorde.
I never said better than Robots or Dragoons I said if you don't go that way or you take troops even if you take 3*5 stock rangers try to give them arc rifles . On ranger killed an eldar Titan. In apoca video winter's.
Just saying you can do some thing in lower point games if you don't have 20 dragoon units. 6 robots you don't like the static line etc.
I said i made a list with only 2 robots a big Ruza destroyer vanguard plasma and stygies breachers to use my kataprhons with priests Dragoons etc. Why not with dominus. It's my fun list and it rocks. If destroyers roll good they are superb and with Ryza overcharged and elimination. Volley 3cp can kill anything. Same goes for priests.
Both staff priests and jazz ones. Jazz ones can be. V good screener. If you take solo mars brigade you can use these cheap monkey as a great screener. With wrath or a technomartyr . Great antihorde . Shoots and cc. Both times will contribute. Lucius also works offensively.
Not optimal but surelly working atm. And it's not only one option. Cause if you for example take two knights you LL need cheap units that can do range and melee .
If you ant with one cheap options to screen jazz priests can screen in mass cheap ND get a buff option easy. Etc.
As said beyond the classik dakka Cawl star. Or at least when you need to be out of an imperium soup or wanna utilise knights etc.
Tip : there can be a heavy melee list with knights and ad mech.
Tip2: for me the point reduction seems like a dominus with assault wepons and brechers footsloging even Cawl with destroyers brechers vang Onagers move the board.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Silver, I have used Fulgurites as a screen and counter-assault unit to pretty good success. They can't be ignored, which is a boon. I just wish they were 14ppm, so they didn't feel like such an expensive unit that can easily get wiped from shooting. C'est la vie. Once we get any transports at all, they will be golden.
I just feel like I get more mileage from ruststalkers as they are faster and can benefit from cover canticle so they are less vulnerable to shooting. They just seem to work better with admech as it currently exists as far as I've seen, in the same basic role as what you described.
Fulgurites can benefit from cover, depending on the AP. And they are much better for the price. Ruststalkers are absurdly overpriced.
Feel free to tell me how Fulgurites can benefit from cover when 6+/5++
They benefit from it - doesn't mean their invuln isn't better. Sorry, apparently I was on a pedantry spree yesterday. Just ignore me.
I hope so and that part of the delay was to rewrite the whole thing to take place after the Indomitus Crusade, which is new lore and wasn't around when it was announced.
Orks are really strong, but they lack a codex. They do have a lot of internal imbalance though. Lots of useless stuff.
For sure, Orks are one of the hardest armies for us to beat. Stopping a Green Tide before they reach your Kastelans is hard. (A competitive Ork list is like 6 Big Gunz units with Kannons, 90 Boyz, 2 Weirdboyz, and one unit of Nobz or Dakka Jetz.)
Suzuteo wrote: Orks are really strong, but they lack a codex. They do have a lot of internal imbalance though. Lots of useless stuff.
For sure, Orks are one of the hardest armies for us to beat. Stopping a Green Tide before they reach your Kastelans is hard. (A competitive Ork list is like 6 Big Gunz units with Kannons, 90 Boyz, 2 Weirdboyz, and one unit of Nobz or Dakka Jetz.)
6 robots with 12 overcharging plasma destroyers next to cawl using elimination volley wrath of mars could most likely delete all of those boyz in a turn with (from the bots) 96 hits, 64 wounds and 36 mortal wounds. Easily enough to continue deleting another unit by splitfiring.
Atm guard and orks depend on numbers. Model and dice. But does not seem to be the only viable way. Maybe easier for more players to play but elite armies have a chance.
I believe the game is heading towards. Good balance overall besides Astra militarum but still in a good standing.
I suggest try to play what you like all got a chance better in 8th than any other. And playing first or taking that+1 the new fixes are good enough. It's close enough to have a great impact depending on player skill and strategy on the table. Mke your armies play them it's now more important than ever to be a good strategist.
Even adeptus mechanicus is hard atm to be beaten. We got big mount of dakka maybe not all options but we got more mass Tha. Elite armies with an elittish profile. Where it stand not top tier but you got the tools to be high enough!! Play your armies lots of tricks yet to play!!
With breachers you can go even more elite. On unit of 6 in small detach army can be extremely good . Troop screener.
Well by reading most of the Ork players on this forum their army is worse than playing full Sisters of Silence somehow. Or is it like our pre-CA codex where only a single build was effective ? I keep reading the only competitive Ork list is green tide + Da Jump. Must make for boring games, less boring than AdMech static Cawl gunline but still, just thinking about moving that much models and throwing buckets of dice makes me shiver.
Oh, don't worry. As an owner of AdMech, Orks and Chaos Daemons... Chaos Daemons are the worst off. Which is why they're seeing ZERO tournament play. They're footslogging melee glass cannons without damage. It's disgusting. Most of the index is unuseable
Admech are in the middle. They have some broken stuff and broken combos. However they suffer because of the current meta: quantity > quality.
And Orks are the best non chaos imperium soup army in the game(pre eldar codex, not sure now). They are the king horde in a meta where horde is king. The only reason they aren't the best race - they don't have the soup to fix their weaknesses, IMO.
I dunno, our local best player is running a list with loads of Brimstones, Daemon Princes and a few Thousand Sons with Ahriman (don't remember all the list honestly) and he's been destroying everyone. Smite spam is a nightmare !
SilverAlien wrote: I'm impressed how pessimistic people are being given the upcoming chapter approved price cuts. We've now got cheaper sources of everything.
Our basic infantry are solid at 7/8 points, we don't have the bodies of IG, but at only 35/40 points for a basic squad they are still great. For a 3 point upcharge you get rangers instead of guardsmen, with a better gun, bs, armor save, plus the canticles and 5 man unit to make getting cover much easier than an IG squad, and while we have the same leadership keeping them at 5 man units means we are less likely to take significant morale losses. Oh and our sarge gets a rifle, which is minor but nice. At 35 points for a basic unit it's also amongst the cheapest troop filler in the game, only Gretchen and Brimstones can be had for less at 30 points for a basic unit.
I know people are upset about transports still, but really why? Infiltrators are now cheap enough to be compareable to a hypothetical set of corpus priests in a transport, and the now cheaper destroyers have a similar relationship to plasma vanguard. I get if it's an aesthetic thing, but it's not going to actually make the army better, unless it happens to be a particularly shooty transport. I just don't really see the appeal balance wise, unless you are desperate to use fulgerites/rustalkers and hate Stygies.
I maintain our codex wasn't as bad as people claimed balance wise (externally at least, internally was more of an issue) and chapter approved looks to be tweaking those issues as well.
I agree, dakka suffers far too much from the notion that if something is .00002% less effective in a vacuum compared to another unit it's "totally useless garbage. Arrrggggg!" Probably because tourney players are all about winning at the list building stage and hoping luck of the draw they go up against more armies they hard counter than hard counter them, the game part is auto-resolve with no tactics.
But, that being said, I still think it would be nice to have a transport because 40k being objective based mobility is super important. Even just an errata that says they can take chimeras would perfectly round out the army.
Aaranis wrote: I dunno, our local best player is running a list with loads of Brimstones, Daemon Princes and a few Thousand Sons with Ahriman (don't remember all the list honestly) and he's been destroying everyone. Smite spam is a nightmare !
Well yes, but that's not a chaos daemons army. That's the sole broken unit - brimstones. DPs are actually better in Death Guard.
A proper chaos daemon army is:
a greater deamon - they all suck and are overpriced by 60-120 points.
A bunch of troops - deamonettes, bloodletters, pink horrors just die like flies and need 3 turns to get anywhere. Plaguebearers are pretty durable but need 4 turns...
some squads of elites,fast attack - pretty much every elite is overpriced trash that, again, dies like a fly.
No ranged support at all. Skull cannon costs 100 but should cost 10 if only looking at the damage it deals. Soul Grinders are beyond awful. And that's, IIRC, all 19''+ they have. Yeah... Sucks real bad.
But if you just go changeling, brimstones, characters spam and Magnus - sure you'll win. But you still need ranged support for ITC missions. Can't wait for the codex...
6 robots with 12 overcharging plasma destroyers next to cawl using elimination volley wrath of mars could most likely delete all of those boyz in a turn with (from the bots) 96 hits, 64 wounds and 36 mortal wounds. Easily enough to continue deleting another unit by splitfiring.
Does anyone run that army? Sounds like an easy way to lose to Razorback or Lascannon spam.
Anyhow, Da Jump and Ere We Go is definitely effective. The win rates speak for themselves.
Our local gaming group ran an all day event over the weekend and it’s highlighted a few things for me with a semi-isolated test I did.
Essentially we were running 1k pairs. My first match was my 1k and 1k custodes vs 2k of Guard. Guard was lots of scions, guardsman, Russ, a manticore and a Valkyrie. My custodes partner basically ran 2 squads of custodes, one with shields footslogging and one in a venerable land raider with lascannon, a primaris -synergy, a squad of sisters of silence and a vindicare. My test was a stygies spearhead: a Neutronager, a Beamonager, 2 dakkastellans and Datasmith, a TPD and 5 dragoons split into 2 and 3. My purpose was essentially to try out various ways of playing with the dragoons and confirmed a lot of thoughts here: they’re amazing if you can spend a cp on them for +2 to hit, if not they’re merely good. The lack of advance and charge means They’re still not quick or versatile enough without infiltrating them. And being a vehicle anything holed up on the second floor of a ruin is essentially impervious. Result was about 13 to 4 they threw in the towel their turn 3 (we went first) I lost 3 dragoons the entire match, one of which took 11 wounds with repairs before dying.
Second match was my same 1k vs 1k of tyranids. I may as well not have even bothered, BUT I knew this was a hard counter to my list and I’ve been formulating plans to try and cope with numbers. His 1k was essentially 30 haums, 30 terms, 15 genestealers, 20 gargoyles, 5 warriors a flying hive tyrant and a neurothrope. I killed zero units. But only the genestealers, hive tyrant and neurothrope actually did anything. I really hate we have no good natural answer to smite or psychic powers in general. I gave up after his turn 3 (I went first) when he gained 13 points in a single round lol. At this point I still had 2 dragoons, the beamonager and TPD left but had only managed to remove the haums and dropped his flyrant to 2 wounds.
After some thought I had a crazy idea. Dakkastellans need a lot of support for them to be successful both in supporting units and cp. I know I’ve only fielded 2 sub-optimally but the thought of having to spend 500-600 points just on robots as well as another 250 on cawl plus 2 cp for override and more if I want to use wrath, purely to sit back and do nothing all game but roll a bucket of dice. Doesn’t appeal. If I wanted that I’d have gone Built a guard army or maybe orks or tyranids. So I’m thinking of dropping them completely.
You’re insane I hear you cry! Maybe. But hear me out. A single Dakkastellan is 110 points for 18 good shots that are woefully inaccurate without support and extremely vulnerable, static, predictable and inflexible. For 10 points more I can get 15 vanguard which, albeit at half range, put out 45 peashooter shots with a decent amount of 2dmg versions. Here’s the thing. What if I took 6 squads of them in a Metallica or graia brigade?
Metallica would allow them to move on average 10” and still fire their 18” at 3+. If you’re targeting heavy armour the phosphor of a kastellan is wounding on a 5 the carbines on a 6. If you’re targeting fodder the phosphor is probably wounding on a 2 but with less than half as many shots for the points and with less ballistic skill. And against armour the chances of getting a few of those 2 dmg carbine hits through is much higher. That 28” vanguard threat range puts you in range your opponents font line.
Graia on the other hand still has the range issue, but potentially much greater protection from shots and morale. And more importantly has a strategm to prevent at least one psychic power and plenty of cp to spend doing it as well as other stuff. This option I’m less enamoured with but you can still advance and fire the vanguard at the same bs as a kastellan but with more shots.
You save so many points not using robots and it’s support network. Even our elite choices now are 70 and 80 points per squad of priests and 110 for infiltrators. Bearing in mind that Corp priests under Metallica can also advance and fire all those electro shots at full bs and have the benefit of having a smog load of vanguard in front of them to help them get in range.
I have a theory crafted 1.5k list for our next event that looks something like this:
Spoiler:
HQ TPD
2 * enginseer
Troops 6 * 5 vanguard
Fast 3 * 2 Dragoon
Elite 2 * 5 corpuscarii
1 * 5 infiltrators
Heavy 2 * Neutronager
1 * Icarus onager
This is pretty much what just came to mind, having 12 cp to play with in an admech army is appealing though. It’s by no means final, I may not even end up going with a brigade, but the notion of using vanguard and dragoons as horde control I think is pretty sound. Elite section needs work though. Maybe 3 * 5 fulgurites instead. I dunno, I’m still mid-rumination lol
If you intend to use Vanguard as a mainstay in your army, there are two questions you need to ask:
1) Are these guys better than Guard?
2) How am I getting these guys down the field?
#1 is conditional. Guard have more bodies, access to a greater variety of 48" weapons, and ways to reduce casualties from morale. But Vanguard at 8 points is definitely much more do-able than 9 or 10.
#2 is tricky. Your best bet is probably doing pseudo-transports by getting a bunch of Tallarn vehicles as LOS blockers and advance behind them. Super inflexible and may require a bit of MFA, but it prevents them from being totally melted right off the bat.
Octovol wrote: Our local gaming group ran an all day event over the weekend and it’s highlighted a few things for me with a semi-isolated test I did.
Essentially we were running 1k pairs. My first match was my 1k and 1k custodes vs 2k of Guard. Guard was lots of scions, guardsman, Russ, a manticore and a Valkyrie. My custodes partner basically ran 2 squads of custodes, one with shields footslogging and one in a venerable land raider with lascannon, a primaris -synergy, a squad of sisters of silence and a vindicare. My test was a stygies spearhead: a Neutronager, a Beamonager, 2 dakkastellans and Datasmith, a TPD and 5 dragoons split into 2 and 3. My purpose was essentially to try out various ways of playing with the dragoons and confirmed a lot of thoughts here: they’re amazing if you can spend a cp on them for +2 to hit, if not they’re merely good. The lack of advance and charge means They’re still not quick or versatile enough without infiltrating them. And being a vehicle anything holed up on the second floor of a ruin is essentially impervious. Result was about 13 to 4 they threw in the towel their turn 3 (we went first) I lost 3 dragoons the entire match, one of which took 11 wounds with repairs before dying.
Second match was my same 1k vs 1k of tyranids. I may as well not have even bothered, BUT I knew this was a hard counter to my list and I’ve been formulating plans to try and cope with numbers. His 1k was essentially 30 haums, 30 terms, 15 genestealers, 20 gargoyles, 5 warriors a flying hive tyrant and a neurothrope. I killed zero units. But only the genestealers, hive tyrant and neurothrope actually did anything. I really hate we have no good natural answer to smite or psychic powers in general. I gave up after his turn 3 (I went first) when he gained 13 points in a single round lol. At this point I still had 2 dragoons, the beamonager and TPD left but had only managed to remove the haums and dropped his flyrant to 2 wounds.
After some thought I had a crazy idea. Dakkastellans need a lot of support for them to be successful both in supporting units and cp. I know I’ve only fielded 2 sub-optimally but the thought of having to spend 500-600 points just on robots as well as another 250 on cawl plus 2 cp for override and more if I want to use wrath, purely to sit back and do nothing all game but roll a bucket of dice. Doesn’t appeal. If I wanted that I’d have gone Built a guard army or maybe orks or tyranids. So I’m thinking of dropping them completely.
You’re insane I hear you cry! Maybe. But hear me out. A single Dakkastellan is 110 points for 18 good shots that are woefully inaccurate without support and extremely vulnerable, static, predictable and inflexible. For 10 points more I can get 15 vanguard which, albeit at half range, put out 45 peashooter shots with a decent amount of 2dmg versions. Here’s the thing. What if I took 6 squads of them in a Metallica or graia brigade?
Metallica would allow them to move on average 10” and still fire their 18” at 3+. If you’re targeting heavy armour the phosphor of a kastellan is wounding on a 5 the carbines on a 6. If you’re targeting fodder the phosphor is probably wounding on a 2 but with less than half as many shots for the points and with less ballistic skill. And against armour the chances of getting a few of those 2 dmg carbine hits through is much higher. That 28” vanguard threat range puts you in range your opponents font line.
Graia on the other hand still has the range issue, but potentially much greater protection from shots and morale. And more importantly has a strategm to prevent at least one psychic power and plenty of cp to spend doing it as well as other stuff. This option I’m less enamoured with but you can still advance and fire the vanguard at the same bs as a kastellan but with more shots.
You save so many points not using robots and it’s support network. Even our elite choices now are 70 and 80 points per squad of priests and 110 for infiltrators. Bearing in mind that Corp priests under Metallica can also advance and fire all those electro shots at full bs and have the benefit of having a smog load of vanguard in front of them to help them get in range.
I have a theory crafted 1.5k list for our next event that looks something like this:
Spoiler:
HQ TPD
2 * enginseer
Troops 6 * 5 vanguard
Fast 3 * 2 Dragoon
Elite 2 * 5 corpuscarii
1 * 5 infiltrators
Heavy 2 * Neutronager
1 * Icarus onager
This is pretty much what just came to mind, having 12 cp to play with in an admech army is appealing though. It’s by no means final, I may not even end up going with a brigade, but the notion of using vanguard and dragoons as horde control I think is pretty sound. Elite section needs work though. Maybe 3 * 5 fulgurites instead. I dunno, I’m still mid-rumination lol
There is no comparison in 18 shots str 6 -2 -cover 36" to none in the game none. No other army has this crap and when you buff mars it's broken. Most other armies want it nerfed.....!
Dragoons are superb. They rock badly but you can only buff one unit at a time meaning you need a 1*6 man and if you take 6 in a city or heavy table you won't be able to move them so you don't practically play 4 at a time for the first rounds.
The design of ad mech is essentially limiting by benefiting from large groups for command point buffs but not able to field lots of thing for make detachments or filed lots of them with lots of cp but not enough big units.
Breaking up robots means you remove your mortal source. Anything 3+ invu or better will make you cry. The combo Robots Dragoons snipers is one able to deal with this and 3 neutronagers for the tank part. If you are going less points yes it seems better to take something else.
After 1500 Cawl star can work else it's easy to get countered. Still you can play without robots. You need them to clea mid field troops camping obj. Str 6 -2 -cover .
Overall if you dont play imperial soup for guard then you need 2 detachments . And most likely two battalions. One must be stygies no matter what. It's more important than Mars.
So you get a stygies with
Dominus warlord etc etc
I suggest snipers in here and breachers
So it looks like
Dominus
Engineer
2*5*2 sniper omnispex
Breachers
1*10 priests staff
1*4 Dragoons.
You infiltrate priests to make a char kill or multi charge etc to get that 3+ invu and harash enemy lines. ASAP.
Dragoons won't b infiltrated always. Vs tyrnninds you need them screener . And in stygies they have -2 to move up field if need. And you should use the as fast units not as infiltration all the time.
That's the plan strategy and it's effective vs most armies snipers can shoot anything breachers can be used as relic holders infiltrated vs heavy rtilerry armies etc etc. Rangers also shoot 30 so use their rifles to guard vs horde armies.
From that point on I strongly suggest mars or Ryza. I'd prefer Ryza. Since you will have cp. I'd go for a
Dominus
Enginseer
1*3-6 destroyers plasma
2*5-10 vang maybe plasma
1*2 robots
1*2 icarus or neutron depending on local meta.
Point wise I'm not calc 1500 I'm giving you the options. Elimination volley Ryza specialist makes your Robots and destroyers 3+ and your plasma destroyers overs
Charge with no deaths and an extreme str 9 -3 3 damage weapon to deal with all that needs to be dealt with. Dominus rer. Ones.
Enjoy. It's a nice smaller point star with out Cawl no Mars and plasma 36" for any target split fire from knights to fliers.
Most likely 2* icarus can help. Breacher and Dragoons are superb screener breachers front Dragoons sides. If you don't need so much go offnsive. Your stygies got tons of options for various missions etc etc. And still your plasma destroyers even 3-4 can be lethal.
If you don't want the robot destroyer Ryza then invest in stygies and a knight. Good luck
Tip : your troops vs any other army will loose. Horde armies better troops elite armies better troops . You only need some troop to play your role. And yes you can make a mobile list !
if you dont like nothign from the above make the stygies and an onager spam worked prior to codex.
if you dont know how to play all strategies make a brigade Stygies and scale from that. breachers snipers onagers always must. Dominus.
Why dragoons and vanguard not vanguard and kastelans? Kastelans do more damage and the vanguard are pulling the role the dragoons traditionally handle?
Double battalion is something i should consider. I'm a good ways off being able to afford to purchase the models required for most of these though, so i kinda need to figure something out in the interim.
i've found 2 dragoons is perfect for holding up a tide of T3 fodder. Most have no AP so rolling 6s to wound and getting my 3+ save kept 2 dragoons alive for 3 rounds surrounded by gargoyles removing them several at a time. Which was fine, though they were holding an objective at the time so he was probably happy for them to be tied up there. 3 feels like a sweet spot, 4 takes up a lot of space but restricts movement. I found manoeuvring 3 was tricky enough. 3 may not be quite enough to remove a T8 vehicle in one turn, but anything below that is in serious trouble.
Our troops probably arent the way to go for cheap horde clearing. They have the number of shots, but not the range to get off more than one volley, unless you manage them with staggered dragoon screens...feels like too much effort.
Just feels like kastellans underperform without a support network. I would definitely consider some destroyers for elimination volley though, that seems like a quick win.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gendoikari87 wrote: Why dragoons and vanguard not vanguard and kastelans? Kastelans do more damage and the vanguard are pulling the role the dragoons traditionally handle?
vanguard have the shots to pull off the attack numbers game but not the staying power of dragoons. 2 dragoons will hold up a swarm for days.
I use vanguard with arc tether in a unit of 10 graia as screener. But that's it. Nowhere else. If you manage to hold one vanguard in melee for that -1 T then your counter unit gets a buff . Don't have any other use. Rangers are better cheaper nice gun range etc. Only as a first screener with alpha taser and that's in lists you got point to spare not 1500.
Breachers are the best screener I got atm when I solo ad mech. stygies second rank after my cheap troops can hold with that -1 and I spend a 1 cp when I need them to survive. +1 save +1 attack is no joke on them + their T5 are perfect for 120p.
He question is wrath of mars or staff preists.
And then how much antitank options you got. Rest antihorde. Ryza plasma or straight up plasma can be used vs everything. Neutron and lasc balistarii.
Lasc balistarii. If you use 3 detachments like when having imperil soup I use two to fill up my stygies outrider and also screen my flanks. Cause I want shooting in my castle. Rest are antihorde same goes for icarus. It's not antitank.
If you plan to use destroyers calculate overcharging else won't worth it vs Cawl Robots. The real difference is robots got 18-36 bs 4+-5+ or 3d6 moving but can be 3 damage Ryza and str enough to hit vehicles. Destroyers can be a good force but don't forget you always gain something g loose something .Cawl and Robots for 2k list are tough can combo benefit from large unit etc more resilient !!!
This was a suggestion for. More versatile moving army on 1500 with probably good results. I hope your local meta does not involve 3 knights.
3 Dragoons sure as long as you make the combo with as many as possible destroyers 3-6 a set of robots for the buff. Remember while robots are stationary you can move destroyer if you don't have more cp. With a dominus they can roam those things suppose you need them and use them else Robots always perform better easier.
Yoda79 wrote: I use vanguard with arc tether in a unit of 10 graia as screener. But that's it. Nowhere else. If you manage to hold one vanguard in melee for that -1 T then your counter unit gets a buff . Don't have any other use. Rangers are better cheaper nice gun range etc. Only as a first screener with alpha taser and that's in lists you got point to spare not 1500.
Breachers are the best screener I got atm when I solo ad mech. stygies second rank after my cheap troops can hold with that -1 and I spend a 1 cp when I need them to survive. +1 save +1 attack is no joke on them + their T5 are perfect for 120p.
He question is wrath of mars or staff preists.
And then how much antitank options you got. Rest antihorde. Ryza plasma or straight up plasma can be used vs everything. Neutron and lasc balistarii.
Lasc balistarii. If you use 3 detachments like when having imperil soup I use two to fill up my stygies outrider and also screen my flanks. Cause I want shooting in my castle. Rest are antihorde same goes for icarus. It's not antitank.
If you plan to use destroyers calculate overcharging else won't worth it vs Cawl Robots. The real difference is robots got 18-36 bs 4+-5+ or 3d6 moving but can be 3 damage Ryza and str enough to hit vehicles. Destroyers can be a good force but don't forget you always gain something g loose something .Cawl and Robots for 2k list are tough can combo benefit from large unit etc more resilient !!!
This was a suggestion for. More versatile moving army on 1500 with probably good results. I hope your local meta does not involve 3 knights.
3 Dragoons sure as long as you make the combo with as many as possible destroyers 3-6 a set of robots for the buff. Remember while robots are stationary you can move destroyer if you don't have more cp. With a dominus they can roam those things suppose you need them and use them else Robots always perform better easier.
How are breaches performing as a screen in comparison with Guardsmen?
I’m teeing up a purchase of another 2 kastellans, an enginseer and a box of destroyers. Just trying to see how cheap I can get them on eBay before I drop 75 quid at my usual online store.
SilverAlien wrote: I'm impressed how pessimistic people are being given the upcoming chapter approved price cuts. We've now got cheaper sources of everything.
Our basic infantry are solid at 7/8 points, we don't have the bodies of IG, but at only 35/40 points for a basic squad they are still great. For a 3 point upcharge you get rangers instead of guardsmen, with a better gun, bs, armor save, plus the canticles and 5 man unit to make getting cover much easier than an IG squad, and while we have the same leadership keeping them at 5 man units means we are less likely to take significant morale losses. Oh and our sarge gets a rifle, which is minor but nice. At 35 points for a basic unit it's also amongst the cheapest troop filler in the game, only Gretchen and Brimstones can be had for less at 30 points for a basic unit.
I know people are upset about transports still, but really why? Infiltrators are now cheap enough to be compareable to a hypothetical set of corpus priests in a transport, and the now cheaper destroyers have a similar relationship to plasma vanguard. I get if it's an aesthetic thing, but it's not going to actually make the army better, unless it happens to be a particularly shooty transport. I just don't really see the appeal balance wise, unless you are desperate to use fulgerites/rustalkers and hate Stygies.
I maintain our codex wasn't as bad as people claimed balance wise (externally at least, internally was more of an issue) and chapter approved looks to be tweaking those issues as well.
Literally made an account to quote this right here. There are three to four extremely loud people on this forum who drown out all other opinions because the math they have done outweighs all other opinions, experiences, and tactics. The amount of variables in Warhammer is insane, and to claim you can tell how a game will turn out based off of math alone is no way to discuss optimal tactics. It leads to mathematic dogma.
If I had listened to the vocal minority on this forum I would have never conceived of taking down Mortarion/Magnus list without Cawl and Dakkabots. Or defeated a loaded guard army with infantry coming out of the wood works, Leman Russes, and Shadowswords without my own Guard detachment+Cawl and Dakkabots. Mathhammer is fine, but having tangible experience with a history of written battle reports at the time of battle to back it up is extraordinarily more valuable. Showing that yes you have tried Dakkabots, you have tried Dragoon spam, you have tried en mass Vanguard, you have tried other Forgeworlds besides Mars. Then I suspect I will hear "my time is too valuable to waste on what is suboptimal" then I will say to you my time is too valuable to waste on your *opinion*.
SilverAlien wrote: I'm impressed how pessimistic people are being given the upcoming chapter approved price cuts. We've now got cheaper sources of everything.
Our basic infantry are solid at 7/8 points, we don't have the bodies of IG, but at only 35/40 points for a basic squad they are still great. For a 3 point upcharge you get rangers instead of guardsmen, with a better gun, bs, armor save, plus the canticles and 5 man unit to make getting cover much easier than an IG squad, and while we have the same leadership keeping them at 5 man units means we are less likely to take significant morale losses. Oh and our sarge gets a rifle, which is minor but nice. At 35 points for a basic unit it's also amongst the cheapest troop filler in the game, only Gretchen and Brimstones can be had for less at 30 points for a basic unit.
I know people are upset about transports still, but really why? Infiltrators are now cheap enough to be compareable to a hypothetical set of corpus priests in a transport, and the now cheaper destroyers have a similar relationship to plasma vanguard. I get if it's an aesthetic thing, but it's not going to actually make the army better, unless it happens to be a particularly shooty transport. I just don't really see the appeal balance wise, unless you are desperate to use fulgerites/rustalkers and hate Stygies.
I maintain our codex wasn't as bad as people claimed balance wise (externally at least, internally was more of an issue) and chapter approved looks to be tweaking those issues as well.
Literally made an account to quote this right here. There are three to four extremely loud people on this forum who drown out all other opinions because the math they have done outweighs all other opinions, experiences, and tactics. The amount of variables in Warhammer is insane, and to claim you can tell how a game will turn out based off of math alone is no way to discuss optimal tactics. It leads to mathematic dogma.
If I had listened to the vocal minority on this forum I would have never conceived of taking down Mortarion/Magnus list without Cawl and Dakkabots. Or defeated a loaded guard army with infantry coming out of the wood works, Leman Russes, and Shadowswords without my own Guard detachment+Cawl and Dakkabots. Mathhammer is fine, but having tangible experience with a history of written battle reports at the time of battle to back it up is extraordinarily more valuable. Showing that yes you have tried Dakkabots, you have tried Dragoon spam, you have tried en mass Vanguard, you have tried other Forgeworlds besides Mars. Then I suspect I will hear "my time is too valuable to waste on what is suboptimal" then I will say to you my time is too valuable to waste on your *opinion*.
Anecdotal evidence doesn't trump raw statistics for a dice game.
Well that's it, I'm borderline hating my army right now. Played a game against our best player today, 1500 pts, 40 little Brimstones (the ones who don't split), a few flamers, exalted chariot, Tzeentch Heralds, Changeling, 2 Daemon Princes, Ahriman, a Terminator Sorcerer, and a few more stuff. Got obliterated, but I hold my ground for 6 turns ! Seriously, there was no way I could beat this list. Smite spam is just uncounterable as AdMech. And who on Earth thought giving a 4++ to a 3 pts model was a good idea ?
I tried Graia with this list and it was utter garbage, it saved like 4 guys in total who just died to more smite, and I used the stratagem to deny 3 times and it worked once. But had I chosen Stygies as usual it would've been useless against his list. Maybe I would've hold my ground better if I deployed as a big backfield gunline, but not even sure, and there were objectives to capture. If I have to play as an immobile gunline at the back of the table while waiting to table my opponent if I want to have a balanced game against a good list I might as well wait for FoC. If it sucks well... I'll sell my army probably. My meta is becoming too much hardcore for my armies, and when an opponent agrees to run a "fun list" and I obliterate him I feel guilty as hell and so in the end no one has any fun. Don't know what to do. Dragoons are exceptional but too expensive if I have to buy 3 more boxes to have a decent list.
Already looking forward for the Drukhari codex, hoping it will be good. It's the same concept of glass cannon army but where you trade toughness for speed, but even then the Drukhari players of the forum are complaining of the state of the army as it is, and the absence of anti-psyker abilities too. And I can forget about my nice snipers too.
Dark Angels codex looks promising, I don't know. I'm confused as hell guys.
Aaranis wrote: Well that's it, I'm borderline hating my army right now. Played a game against our best player today, 1500 pts, 40 little Brimstones (the ones who don't split), a few flamers, exalted chariot, Tzeentch Heralds, Changeling, 2 Daemon Princes, Ahriman, a Terminator Sorcerer, and a few more stuff. Got obliterated, but I hold my ground for 6 turns ! Seriously, there was no way I could beat this list. Smite spam is just uncounterable as AdMech. And who on Earth thought giving a 4++ to a 3 pts model was a good idea ?
I tried Graia with this list and it was utter garbage, it saved like 4 guys in total who just died to more smite, and I used the stratagem to deny 3 times and it worked once. But had I chosen Stygies as usual it would've been useless against his list. Maybe I would've hold my ground better if I deployed as a big backfield gunline, but not even sure, and there were objectives to capture. If I have to play as an immobile gunline at the back of the table while waiting to table my opponent if I want to have a balanced game against a good list I might as well wait for FoC. If it sucks well... I'll sell my army probably. My meta is becoming too much hardcore for my armies, and when an opponent agrees to run a "fun list" and I obliterate him I feel guilty as hell and so in the end no one has any fun. Don't know what to do. Dragoons are exceptional but too expensive if I have to buy 3 more boxes to have a decent list.
Already looking forward for the Drukhari codex, hoping it will be good. It's the same concept of glass cannon army but where you trade toughness for speed, but even then the Drukhari players of the forum are complaining of the state of the army as it is, and the absence of anti-psyker abilities too. And I can forget about my nice snipers too.
Dark Angels codex looks promising, I don't know. I'm confused as hell guys.
Sorry to hear that mate. I play against Chaos alot with my admech. Usually 1ksons and deamon support with some renegae chaos marines. Psykers are a huge problem for admech as we have no pratical means to counter (pure admech anyways) as our units are expensive and we have no psykers ourselves. From my experience, the best way to handle smite spam (which my friends doesn't heavy spam it, just every unit he has is a psyker pretty much, 1ksons and all...) is to outgun/range. Most of Admech: robots/destroyers/onagers have decent range. Or go opposite, build the strange but sometimes effective melee admech list and charge them ASAP. This is more luck based and circumstantial than anything else so i may be of limited help...
Or hopfully, and if not I highly recommend you guy start, play objective games, which will turn your from slugfests to tactical positioning and terrain manipulation.
Tsol wrote: Sorry to hear that mate. I play against Chaos alot with my admech. Usually 1ksons and deamon support with some renegae chaos marines. Psykers are a huge problem for admech as we have no pratical means to counter (pure admech anyways) as our units are expensive and we have no psykers ourselves. From my experience, the best way to handle smite spam (which my friends doesn't heavy spam it, just every unit he has is a psyker pretty much, 1ksons and all...) is to outgun/range. Most of Admech: robots/destroyers/onagers have decent range. Or go opposite, build the strange but sometimes effective melee admech list and charge them ASAP. This is more luck based and circumstantial than anything else so i may be of limited help...
Or hopfully, and if not I highly recommend you guy start, play objective games, which will turn your from slugfests to tactical positioning and terrain manipulation.
Yeah I think I'll buy the Tactical Cards someday, and play Maelstrom. Outrange ? 18" smite + move + advance and he's already in my face. I didn't have much luck in this game though, have you ever had 36 Kastelan shots kill 3 Brimstones ? That's how I felt the whole game. I had fun, but the sad kind of fun you know ?
I'd like to run CC AdMech, really, but it's imperative to run at least 3-4 Dragoons for it to work and I'm really reluctant spending 114€ for 204 pts :/
SilverAlien wrote: I'm impressed how pessimistic people are being given the upcoming chapter approved price cuts. We've now got cheaper sources of everything.
Our basic infantry are solid at 7/8 points, we don't have the bodies of IG, but at only 35/40 points for a basic squad they are still great. For a 3 point upcharge you get rangers instead of guardsmen, with a better gun, bs, armor save, plus the canticles and 5 man unit to make getting cover much easier than an IG squad, and while we have the same leadership keeping them at 5 man units means we are less likely to take significant morale losses. Oh and our sarge gets a rifle, which is minor but nice. At 35 points for a basic unit it's also amongst the cheapest troop filler in the game, only Gretchen and Brimstones can be had for less at 30 points for a basic unit.
I know people are upset about transports still, but really why? Infiltrators are now cheap enough to be compareable to a hypothetical set of corpus priests in a transport, and the now cheaper destroyers have a similar relationship to plasma vanguard. I get if it's an aesthetic thing, but it's not going to actually make the army better, unless it happens to be a particularly shooty transport. I just don't really see the appeal balance wise, unless you are desperate to use fulgerites/rustalkers and hate Stygies.
I maintain our codex wasn't as bad as people claimed balance wise (externally at least, internally was more of an issue) and chapter approved looks to be tweaking those issues as well.
Literally made an account to quote this right here. There are three to four extremely loud people on this forum who drown out all other opinions because the math they have done outweighs all other opinions, experiences, and tactics. The amount of variables in Warhammer is insane, and to claim you can tell how a game will turn out based off of math alone is no way to discuss optimal tactics. It leads to mathematic dogma.
If I had listened to the vocal minority on this forum I would have never conceived of taking down Mortarion/Magnus list without Cawl and Dakkabots. Or defeated a loaded guard army with infantry coming out of the wood works, Leman Russes, and Shadowswords without my own Guard detachment+Cawl and Dakkabots. Mathhammer is fine, but having tangible experience with a history of written battle reports at the time of battle to back it up is extraordinarily more valuable. Showing that yes you have tried Dakkabots, you have tried Dragoon spam, you have tried en mass Vanguard, you have tried other Forgeworlds besides Mars. Then I suspect I will hear "my time is too valuable to waste on what is suboptimal" then I will say to you my time is too valuable to waste on your *opinion*.
Anecdotal evidence doesn't trump raw statistics for a dice game.
Tactical+dice game. Tactics go beyond math.
Warhammer is a War simulator, creating war, no matter the stage, is an art form, part science part art. To believe it is fully one or the other is the surest sign of a fool.
If you think the math is misleading, prove it by winning a major. Unless you can show AdMech competing at top tables then for all we know you're just seal-clubbing inferior players at your local scene who look up netlists but don't understand them.
Tsol wrote: Sorry to hear that mate. I play against Chaos alot with my admech. Usually 1ksons and deamon support with some renegae chaos marines. Psykers are a huge problem for admech as we have no pratical means to counter (pure admech anyways) as our units are expensive and we have no psykers ourselves. From my experience, the best way to handle smite spam (which my friends doesn't heavy spam it, just every unit he has is a psyker pretty much, 1ksons and all...) is to outgun/range. Most of Admech: robots/destroyers/onagers have decent range. Or go opposite, build the strange but sometimes effective melee admech list and charge them ASAP. This is more luck based and circumstantial than anything else so i may be of limited help...
Or hopfully, and if not I highly recommend you guy start, play objective games, which will turn your from slugfests to tactical positioning and terrain manipulation.
Yeah I think I'll buy the Tactical Cards someday, and play Maelstrom. Outrange ? 18" smite + move + advance and he's already in my face. I didn't have much luck in this game though, have you ever had 36 Kastelan shots kill 3 Brimstones ? That's how I felt the whole game. I had fun, but the sad kind of fun you know ?
I'd like to run CC AdMech, really, but it's imperative to run at least 3-4 Dragoons for it to work and I'm really reluctant spending 114€ for 204 pts :/
Its easier on my end because my buddy footslogs most of his Rubrics but his terminators are always a pain. Yeah if you need to stay still, pulling back when he moves forward wont be of much help. :(
I cannot recommend enough trying out the maelstorm missions or the new chapter approved ones. The cards are decent as well, but I prefer a little more consistancy to my game rules/goals. At my hooby group we play with lots of terrain and objective missions. Pure Kill points never really happen (unless its part of the mission) and I suggest playing those. They are more fun and much more diverse.
Trust me though, I know the feeling of bad dice rolls. I had 3 venerable dreadnaughts charge my buddys sorceror and 20 man rubric squad into melee, rolled 9 1s. I think I still have the picture of his smug face.
Arachnofiend wrote: If you think the math is misleading, prove it by winning a major. Unless you can show AdMech competing at top tables then for all we know you're just seal-clubbing inferior players at your local scene who look up netlists but don't understand them.
Prove that a pure mathematical approach best by winning a major yourself then? I mean you can try and quantify all of the top lists into pure mathematics but overlooking the tactics and understanding of basic principles of war making is silly. I get psychologically humans want to have 100% control over everything around them (this is usually done via math) even in a game like Warhammer, but there are just some things you simply cannot factor into a war/battle simulator like Warhammer.
It's game based on fiction that doesn't even closely represent it's fiction. It's not a simulator.
I have a friend who doesn't take maths into account and I've never seen him come close to winning a game in 7th or 8th.
Maths is a big part of optimal decision making and not using it accounts for many of the whiney SM players complaining they don't survive past turn 2 and not understanding why.
Take grav destroyers they are worth about 30pts outside of Mars (give or take a few due to low durablebility) they cost about 70 they are therefore always a bad selection. Now optimally if you wanted to play them you can put them in a fortification but you won't change that other options would do the job better
The problem isnt the use of maths
it's firstly the oversimplification of it there are many aspects to a unit yet often the vocal people pick one aspect and focus on that solely. Usually based on a unitary tactic. often this leads to inacurate conclusions which can be demonstrated. Also certain unconventional combinations change the stats eg takeing a pure infantry list lessons the effectiveness of your enemies multidamage weapons.
Secondally yes strategy and tactics are important there are many ways to build a list and do well I could give my terrible friend a good list and I could still beat it with a bad one because he positions badly and focuses the wrong targets. Its bad not to consider other tactical options and what they offer however there is nothing wrong with pointing out flaws in those selections.
@Goldenemperor
I think you're presenting an unfair argument.
There are qualitative and quantitative aspects to the game. This is undisputable. However, only the quantitative aspect is objective, hence why it is used as a basis for comparison. When we do delve into qualitative aspects, it is usually as a tactics hypothetical. However, it is difficult to impossible for me to compare my play style to your play style.
Anyhow, instead of unproductively criticising the use of math, how about you present a productive argument (qualitative or quantitative) in favor of one model or another?
@Aaranis
It is annoying. Your best bet is literally to deploy as far away as possible and put as many bodies between you and them as possible and hope for the best.
After 300 posts in tactics from many players I find it luckluster to listen to anyone saying we shouting he knows better math tell half truth etc. Some blamed competitive some now math next will say we pros and he amateur etc. I don't get it. Anyone in here believes we don't play the game ? The feedback given in forum does not include from experienced players to fresh ones. Bl a bla pooping saying one crap then that's it.
When we talking details trying to find the best optimal is because we talk about an war environment where my enemy will use all his weapons including math to win.
None said what to play to none. Play whatever makes you happy. But we must measure our top performing list in theory at least to start testing for optimal. What will suit after that epeach players playstyle is irelevant. Some like cc some range other options etc.
Unfortunately the ones doing more harm than good are those that believe that after 1000 experienced talks in here you know the magic list or unit.
If a robot costs 110 fires 18 shots buffed from wrath and Cawl you can type all day but there is none better. Math wise play wise game wise. Now a list is not only robots n
Cards obj etc. Sure we can figure out more in list try more now with reduced cost but taking troops won't win you nothing and you can cry about it.
Now ad mech got v v few options. Atm no need to offend none or tire people with this. Try them out find your super list and try to win.
But can't be luck so many editions now to get valid results and ignore them. I don't use math I say my experience other help with math others with point of view others with tactics. Read 300 pages then write crap!!!
In a more uplifting tone, I finally have my Chapter Approved book and am looking through it.
I am very pleased to see the point reductions are accurate (I assumed true, but nice to verify it personally). Though am still sad to see that they haven't done any hard changes to admech. Meaning rules changes and the like.
What I'm taking from this is the same as most people. Tech Priests and TPD are less of a tax but still overcosted, though its nice to see them come down in costs. Servitors are unchanged and I don't know why, I have never seen them deployed other than myself who was simply seeing if I could make them work.
Rangers are viable now and I think I'll be using them as my special weapon holders instead of Vanguard. Vanguard... At 8pts, they are still technically "meh" but thanks to Graia or Metallica you can actually build a list to make use of them.
Slight tangent. I think Metallica's faction should just be built into the skitarri datasheets: All skitarri models just have the metallica faction bonus as a rule, not a faction bonus and I think that would go a LONG way to helping us as a faction deal with our lack of mobility.
Vanguard I have always liked but with their point reduction, I think I'll be taking 2, 10 man squads with data tethers as harrasment troops/ screens. And probably 2 10 man squads of rangers with 3 Arc rifles and omiscope. Thats a large amount of bodies with some tatical flexability for pretty darn cheap. A TPD and an enginseer would make for a good Graia/metallica detachment.
I've been using destroyers and breachers even before the codex came out because I think they are super cool looking. Breachers... I think they are price about right, I'd like them to hit on 4s with their crappy powerfists, and I wish the Torsion cannond was 2 shots or D3 shots but for Heavy Arc Rifles and Arc claws they are pretty decent at 120pts for 3.
Torsion cannon and hydralic claws though... If they had more shots and didn't hit on 5+ (claws) maybe... Too much chance to miss unless you have Cawl, then I'd say they could be taken. But it is nice to have 6 breachers fire mini Lazcannons with AP-4 at something and watch your opponent flinch.
Destroyers as with Breachers I've always been using because they are cool. Now with their points reduction, I think anyone who takes Cawl can easily justify their presence. However, if you're like me any ou play primairly Lucius you must keep a TPD nearby. His rerolls of 1 and ablity to repair these high cost models are imperative. But that in mind you're dropping 175+ 130 for the TPD is a little over 300pts still. So you're brought back to the: Should I pay 100 more points for an Imperial knight? The answer is both.
In all seriousness, the unit is still a bit overcosted, but workable. For the amount of firepower the Grav and plasma offer taken in conjunction of synergy and even strategies, I think many people may get more mileage out of these glass cannons. I prefer the Grav as 15 shots plus whatever gear is always better than 3d6 shots of plasma, but that just personal prefrence. I think I will almost always take the flamers though, as the phospher blasters hardly ever do anything, and the flamers act as excellent charge deterrents due to their 2d6 pick the higher rule.
Infiltrators are still heavily overcosted but a 2pts reduction is a welcome boon. I still always take 2 squads one powersword and one taser goad because their deepstrike and hard counter/absurd number of shots make them useful despite their shockingly high costs. These models in particular make me miss dunestrider more than any other.... I'd pay 4 points more for each model if they had dunestrider...
Cawl is Cawl. Now hes 10 pts cheaper. Thumbs up!
Overall, this isn't a drastic change for Admech, but a nice boost to our desyroyers and breachers which have been made relevant if nothing else. And a reduction on our primary taxs the TPD and Enginseer are almost properly costed. Meaning for me, I might roll my eyes at their price but I have little room to complain. Rangers are actually good. I know you maffs hammers and guard/soup players will contest, but for us Pure admech armies, Rangers are compatent especially when gear up for purpose. 10 man squads with arc rifles and a omiscope are going to be a staple in my new lists and vanguard stock are pretty decent and just throwing out dakka for a reasonable price. Might still put plasma with them though, as I'd like to keep the assault weapon with their kin.
Suzuteo wrote: @Goldenemperor
I think you're presenting an unfair argument.
There are qualitative and quantitative aspects to the game. This is undisputable. However, only the quantitative aspect is objective, hence why it is used as a basis for comparison. When we do delve into qualitative aspects, it is usually as a tactics hypothetical. However, it is difficult to impossible for me to compare my play style to your play style.
Anyhow, instead of unproductively criticising the use of math, how about you present a productive argument (qualitative or quantitative) in favor of one model or another?
Listen I never said and will never say that math is not important when building competitive lists, plain and simple it is. Which is why, as U02dah4 stated, we get whiny SM players who can't figure out why they have to concede turn 2. Because mathematically their list is inferior.
But mathematics and unit comparisons are not the end all be all. I mean the simple difference of mobility between an assault weapon and a rapid fire weapon is so difficult to quantify. Or a heavy weapons versus rapid fire weapons and how just the weapon types alone even though not wide in variety play with someone's decisions on the board.
If mathematics is all that is being compared here because we all want to be objective in our arguments this thread should be changed to 40k Mathhammer not 40k Tactics, as it is a sham to call it tactics when thought out and tactical arguments are put to the sword based off of Mathhammer alone.
Arachnofiend wrote: If you think the math is misleading, prove it by winning a major. Unless you can show AdMech competing at top tables then for all we know you're just seal-clubbing inferior players at your local scene who look up netlists but don't understand them.
Prove that a pure mathematical approach best by winning a major yourself then? I mean you can try and quantify all of the top lists into pure mathematics but overlooking the tactics and understanding of basic principles of war making is silly. I get psychologically humans want to have 100% control over everything around them (this is usually done via math) even in a game like Warhammer, but there are just some things you simply cannot factor into a war/battle simulator like Warhammer.
Please tell me, why I should use a more expensive, weaker in terms of durability and damage unit instead of a superior unit in all these 3 things, when they fill almost the exact same role?
That's where math comes in. Through 100 games, you will win a lot more often with the more efficient units. Done and done.
For me, when I think of taking kataphrons, ruststalkers, servitors, fistellans, etc... I think "lol, I'm not stupid. They are bad". (this is pre-CA)
I'm not saying "everyone who takes them is stupid", I just can't force myself to do it unless it's a completelly friendly game with a new player.
So I'm pretty new to admech as primarily a guard player, but I've really been enjoying mixing skitarii into my guard lists. IG lacks good quality shooting at range sometimes, especially if you forgo Cadia, and I've found Neutron Laser Onagers, sniper rangers, and even Vanguard/TPD have been handy to shore up weaknesses.
I play Metallica, so I end up using my skitarii a bit weird. Mainly, I treat the admech as cut rate stormtroopers in my backfield, kind of a substitute for Carapace Veterans, which are gone in our codex. Vanguard are excellent for an IG infantry line because not only do they have a higher BS, they also get rerolls from the Dominus, and have the melee aura. It sounds useless, but if you combine say Vanguard with a Catachan army, your Catachans are going from wounding space marines on 4's to 3's, with just bayonets. With the Metallica ability thrown in, Vanguard make excellent firefighter units for plugging gaps in a line or dealing with something dropping in. They put out a ton of shots, then charge in with a couple of guard squads. Combined with perhaps a priest or two roving around behind your lines, you could mount some scary countercharges by tagteaming your infantry squads and vanguard. I'm still figuring out the best ways to use them, ranging from shadowing onagers to sticking them on the flanks to just sticking them in the center of my army and seeing where they're needed. Even with regular guardsmen though, dropping the enemy toughness value is huge. You just have so many attacks that even going from say a 6 to a 5 is a massive deal.
Rangers help IG a lot by giving you a hard hitting source of sniper fire with the arquebus. Granted Snipers aren't the most insane thing ever, Admech ones can do a decent amount of damage and I've often found myself using them to soften up backfield characters for a stormtrooper drop. At the very least they make a nice objective sitter and let me be more aggressive with guardsmen. They're probably not super efficient but they're fun to use at least. I've noticed people really don't like to let their characters get shot at by them though, so at the very least it seems to scare squisher characters like eldar or IG.
Finally, I've really liked my Techpriest Dominuses so far, although I feel the Volkite blaster is pretty crap after using them for almost an entire match nonstop on 2 different TPD. No AP just really hurts them and maybe it's just bad luck, but I never seem to actually get mortal wounds with them. Tempted to try out the other beam they have. Love the macropistols though, those things are handy. With him getting a little cheaper and providing repairs/rerolls, I actually liked him quite a bit. He was even handy for melee when I've had some guys break through my lines.
Still figuring out how exactly to make it work, but it seems like if you bring enough guardsmen and stormtroopers, people just don't have time to fool with the skitarii, which lets them move around and do whatever they need to do. Essentially you run a very infantry heavy army split between stormtroopers, guardsmen, and vanguard/rangers to get both volume and quantity of fire. From there Onager dunecrawlers with neutron lasers are incredible and they even match up pretty well with basic leman russes and Exterminators, each variant covering the other's weaknesses.
Probably not going to take NOVA or anything but it's definitely strong and fun to use. Metallica probably isn't the most powerful trait for them, it's just what mine are painted as.
lash92 wrote: Since my question got somehow lost in the discussion I repeat it:
How are Breachers performing as a screening unit in comparison to say Guardsman?
Overall terrible with a few exceptions.
If you want them to literally take up space, this could be useful due to their huge bases. They could tie up enemy rifle units for some time. A 3+ save with T5 and 3W with 3 Attacks, means if they were to get into a melee fight with a 5 or maybe even 10 tactical squad they could win. But as soon as a proper melee geared squad gets into them... I doubt they would last.
I have teleported 9 breachers with a TPD behind enemy lines and blown up two chieras with their Arc Rifles and then charged the two veteran squads which piled out. They won easily. But if I attacked like powerweapons/fists or dedicated melee, I would assume the opposite.
If i play imperial soup i dont use them. obviously.But as a player i want options in my lists. And when i play Dragoons i want them aggressive. So unless i face something extreme alpha cc i send my dragoon up field and keep on lascbalistarii as screeners back.
troops are not enough. So it works something like this. 3x5-10 Vanguards tasers Graia in front for that one deny and that 6 to deny death. maybe one unit has arc rifles if i got points.
and a second row of defence stygies -1 to hit exactly 12" from enemy deep strike so around 3" from my troops. breachers lascbalistarii enginseers sniper rangers.All those are a bubble for me Cawl star.
stygie smean i can infiltrate breachers and i am in relic maps etc.I also use the stratagem for infrantry unit +1 save and +1 att when i need that one more round. i dont kno how its working for the rest but for me 120 point are a better screener than 10 vanguards and can assist with arc for enemy trasports better than troops. -1froms tygies t5 9 wounds might get a heal can melee with a reroll canticle and if you got one vanguard alive in melee -1 tough. Big bases
lash92 wrote: Since my question got somehow lost in the discussion I repeat it:
How are Breachers performing as a screening unit in comparison to say Guardsman?
Poorly
Thanks mate.
Yoda79 wrote:Breachers 120 points.
If i play imperial soup i dont use them. obviously.But as a player i want options in my lists. And when i play Dragoons i want them aggressive. So unless i face something extreme alpha cc i send my dragoon up field and keep on lascbalistarii as screeners back.
troops are not enough. So it works something like this. 3x5-10 Vanguards tasers Graia in front for that one deny and that 6 to deny death. maybe one unit has arc rifles if i got points.
and a second row of defence stygies -1 to hit exactly 12" from enemy deep strike so around 3" from my troops. breachers lascbalistarii enginseers sniper rangers.All those are a bubble for me Cawl star.
stygie smean i can infiltrate breachers and i am in relic maps etc.I also use the stratagem for infrantry unit +1 save and +1 att when i need that one more round. i dont kno how its working for the rest but for me 120 point are a better screener than 10 vanguards and can assist with arc for enemy trasports better than troops. -1froms tygies t5 9 wounds might get a heal can melee with a reroll canticle and if you got one vanguard alive in melee -1 tough. Big bases
For solo ad mech i use them 1x3 unit.
The thing is I am playing mechanised Guard and I´m looking for a mechanic screen to not break the theme of my army (so no Infantry Squads).
Based on that, what would you recommend me to add? Dragoon, Breachers or Ballistari?
Well games workshop is trully trying to balance out roles units armies etc.
Dragoons are extremely good atm. And since I recommend always stygies as main battalion no need for Cawl heavy robot teams etc brechers can be of use but.
1*4 Dragoons always take first. Always they get -2 to hit fast unit big bases can screen can charge superb. You can infiltrate them or keep them for defence they use 1 cp to get taser hitting on 1+ and explode on 4+. Superb.
Now after that it's a decision. Ho you will utilise the army. You gonna take an aux then take 1*4 Dragoons.
You gonna make a battalion then breachers can fill one troop choise sure. Or wanna try outrider detachment. Balistarii are not superb in matters of points. They are ok. But I use them fine fas I explained two with -1 to hit especially if I use dominus and I don't want more Onagers.
And you can remove breachers for cheap points or add
An enginseer and 2*5*2 snipers omnispex and make it a battalion. Elaborate with two icarus Onagers and your good to go in any formation with guard you decide . All stygies get -1 to hit above 12" and can spend 1 cp to infiltrate. Breachers for relics Dragoons for a sweet first round charge on exposed enemy line. Or even build 10 staff priests for infiltration and mortals. Stygies. Good point to make your way towards ad mech
Yoda79 wrote: Well games workshop is trully trying to balance out roles units armies etc.
Dragoons are extremely good atm. And since I recommend always stygies as main battalion no need for Cawl heavy robot teams etc brechers can be of use but.
1*4 Dragoons always take first. Always they get -2 to hit fast unit big bases can screen can charge superb. You can infiltrate them or keep them for defence they use 1 cp to get taser hitting on 1+ and explode on 4+. Superb.
Now after that it's a decision. Ho you will utilise the army. You gonna take an aux then take 1*4 Dragoons.
You gonna make a battalion then breachers can fill one troop choise sure. Or wanna try outrider detachment. Balistarii are not superb in matters of points. They are ok. But I use them fine fas I explained two with -1 to hit especially if I use dominus and I don't want more Onagers.
And you can remove breachers for cheap points or add
An enginseer and 2*5*2 snipers omnispex and make it a battalion. Elaborate with two icarus Onagers and your good to go in any formation with guard you decide . All stygies get -1 to hit above 12" and can spend 1 cp to infiltrate. Breachers for relics Dragoons for a sweet first round charge on exposed enemy line. Or even build 10 staff priests for infiltration and mortals. Stygies. Good point to make your way towards ad mech
Looks good to me, thanks mate!
Maybe I´ll swap the Dominus for an Enginseer, because he can heal my Russes better.
axisofentropy wrote: I like the Cawl price drop because I like playing my Cawl model I spent too much time painting.
But I don't like that Cawl is such an auto-include and that makes Mars the obvious best subfaction.
If it were up to me, I'd move Cawl back up 10 points and the other HQ both down an additional 10. But I'd still play Cawl myself!
Except I play stygies (admittedly only 50% admech lists at 2k) and I have an exceptional record. Cawl makes sense if your going to sit back with dakka bots in a little circle but that's not the only strategy and the second you start mixing factions he is far too expensive and without him there are better tools than dakkabots
Arachnofiend wrote: If you think the math is misleading, prove it by winning a major. Unless you can show AdMech competing at top tables then for all we know you're just seal-clubbing inferior players at your local scene who look up netlists but don't understand them.
Prove that a pure mathematical approach best by winning a major yourself then? I mean you can try and quantify all of the top lists into pure mathematics but overlooking the tactics and understanding of basic principles of war making is silly. I get psychologically humans want to have 100% control over everything around them (this is usually done via math) even in a game like Warhammer, but there are just some things you simply cannot factor into a war/battle simulator like Warhammer.
Please tell me, why I should use a more expensive, weaker in terms of durability and damage unit instead of a superior unit in all these 3 things, when they fill almost the exact same role?
That's where math comes in. Through 100 games, you will win a lot more often with the more efficient units. Done and done.
For me, when I think of taking kataphrons, ruststalkers, servitors, fistellans, etc... I think "lol, I'm not stupid. They are bad". (this is pre-CA)
I'm not saying "everyone who takes them is stupid", I just can't force myself to do it unless it's a completelly friendly game with a new player.
I agree with the units you have pointed out are inferior to a lot of things and personally I never use them in a competitive setting. That is what goes into good list building is finding those units that are CLEARLY quantifiably inferior.
What I am talking about is Mathhammering to the point that there is near negligible quantifiable advantage of taking one unit over the other. But because Unit A shoots (insert small random percentage here) better than unit B, unit B is not to be considered for competitive play. And basically all other non quantifiable forms of the game are completely ignored. Those are the arguments being pursued with religious fervour around here.
Arachnofiend wrote: If you think the math is misleading, prove it by winning a major. Unless you can show AdMech competing at top tables then for all we know you're just seal-clubbing inferior players at your local scene who look up netlists but don't understand them.
Prove that a pure mathematical approach best by winning a major yourself then? I mean you can try and quantify all of the top lists into pure mathematics but overlooking the tactics and understanding of basic principles of war making is silly. I get psychologically humans want to have 100% control over everything around them (this is usually done via math) even in a game like Warhammer, but there are just some things you simply cannot factor into a war/battle simulator like Warhammer.
Please tell me, why I should use a more expensive, weaker in terms of durability and damage unit instead of a superior unit in all these 3 things, when they fill almost the exact same role?
That's where math comes in. Through 100 games, you will win a lot more often with the more efficient units. Done and done.
For me, when I think of taking kataphrons, ruststalkers, servitors, fistellans, etc... I think "lol, I'm not stupid. They are bad". (this is pre-CA)
I'm not saying "everyone who takes them is stupid", I just can't force myself to do it unless it's a completelly friendly game with a new player.
I agree with the units you have pointed out are inferior to a lot of things and personally I never use them in a competitive setting. That is what goes into good list building is finding those units that are CLEARLY quantifiably inferior.
What I am talking about is Mathhammering to the point that there is near negligible quantifiable advantage of taking one unit over the other. But because Unit A shoots (insert small random percentage here) better than unit B, unit B is not to be considered for competitive play. And basically all other non quantifiable forms of the game are completely ignored. Those are the arguments being pursued with religious fervour around here.
Now that you have said you and everyone else has said their piece on this topic and the pot has been suitably stirred, I think we should get back to discussing Chapter Approved and speculating strategy/tactics going forward - especially with more Marines inbound with their own flavors we need to account for.
Suzuteo wrote: Breachers would not be my first choice for a screen. They are more a troop artillery unit.
Indeed for that sort of price point you could field 2 dragoons for an infinitely better screen.
Sure they have far greater survivability, but they can't contribute to your shooting and they aren't troops and so are lacking objective secured.
I guess it's a bit of a trade off, but I will try both.
Suzuteo wrote: Breachers would not be my first choice for a screen. They are more a troop artillery unit.
Indeed for that sort of price point you could field 2 dragoons for an infinitely better screen.
Sure they have far greater survivability, but they can't contribute to your shooting and they aren't troops and so are lacking objective secured.
I guess it's a bit of a trade off, but I will try both.
Screening means those Breachers aren't shooting either, as they are there to eat charges. That is why they are not good to screen. The Dragoon can eat the charge, survive shooting better, and then if it lives it can go on to take unclaimed objectives with their superior mobility.
And I would argue even if Breachers are shooting, are they really contributing?! Their guns are just so mediocre.
Suzuteo wrote: Breachers would not be my first choice for a screen. They are more a troop artillery unit.
Indeed for that sort of price point you could field 2 dragoons for an infinitely better screen.
Sure they have far greater survivability, but they can't contribute to your shooting and they aren't troops and so are lacking objective secured.
I guess it's a bit of a trade off, but I will try both.
Screening means those Breachers aren't shooting either, as they are there to eat charges. That is why they are not good to screen. The Dragoon can eat the charge, survive shooting better, and then if it lives it can go on to take unclaimed objectives with their superior mobility.
And I would argue even if Breachers are shooting, are they really contributing?! Their guns are just so mediocre.
I still dont get why there's so much hate for the heavy arc rifle. Show me another troops weapon you get 2 -2 apD6dmg shots for 6 points? I'ts only 2points more expensive than the arc rifles you can take on vanguard/rangers and considerably more than doubly effective. Is it purely because it wounds or 4s and 5s? because only the heaviest of weapons wound on better outside of plasma and melta. and those come with considerably price premiums.
Suzuteo wrote: Breachers would not be my first choice for a screen. They are more a troop artillery unit.
Indeed for that sort of price point you could field 2 dragoons for an infinitely better screen.
Sure they have far greater survivability, but they can't contribute to your shooting and they aren't troops and so are lacking objective secured.
I guess it's a bit of a trade off, but I will try both.
Screening means those Breachers aren't shooting either, as they are there to eat charges. That is why they are not good to screen. The Dragoon can eat the charge, survive shooting better, and then if it lives it can go on to take unclaimed objectives with their superior mobility.
And I would argue even if Breachers are shooting, are they really contributing?! Their guns are just so mediocre.
I still dont get why there's so much hate for the heavy arc rifle. Show me another troops weapon you get 2 -2 apD6dmg shots for 6 points? I'ts only 2points more expensive than the arc rifles you can take on vanguard/rangers and considerably more than doubly effective. Is it purely because it wounds or 4s and 5s? because only the heaviest of weapons wound on better outside of plasma and melta. and those come with considerably price premiums.
Low wound T5 model that hits on 4's. It only does d6 damage against vehicles, which means we are wounding on 4's and 5's (usually the latter, because most stuff is T7+), as you said. So we may hit with one shot and maybe we will wound a third of the time? Just awful.
@octovol Yeah, you really have a bad way of looking at things. The cost of the weapon means nothing. At all. At. All... Forget it in any strategy discussions.
What matters is model + weapon combined cost and WS/BS/S the weapon is used with. Now we have an overpriced body that's somewhat durable for the points cost but is really bad at shooting with, in his case, the arc rifle.
Aaranis wrote: Well that's it, I'm borderline hating my army right now. Played a game against our best player today, 1500 pts, 40 little Brimstones (the ones who don't split), a few flamers, exalted chariot, Tzeentch Heralds, Changeling, 2 Daemon Princes, Ahriman, a Terminator Sorcerer, and a few more stuff. Got obliterated, but I hold my ground for 6 turns ! Seriously, there was no way I could beat this list. Smite spam is just uncounterable as AdMech. And who on Earth thought giving a 4++ to a 3 pts model was a good idea ?
I tried Graia with this list and it was utter garbage, it saved like 4 guys in total who just died to more smite, and I used the stratagem to deny 3 times and it worked once. But had I chosen Stygies as usual it would've been useless against his list. Maybe I would've hold my ground better if I deployed as a big backfield gunline, but not even sure, and there were objectives to capture. If I have to play as an immobile gunline at the back of the table while waiting to table my opponent if I want to have a balanced game against a good list I might as well wait for FoC. If it sucks well... I'll sell my army probably. My meta is becoming too much hardcore for my armies, and when an opponent agrees to run a "fun list" and I obliterate him I feel guilty as hell and so in the end no one has any fun. Don't know what to do. Dragoons are exceptional but too expensive if I have to buy 3 more boxes to have a decent list.
Already looking forward for the Drukhari codex, hoping it will be good. It's the same concept of glass cannon army but where you trade toughness for speed, but even then the Drukhari players of the forum are complaining of the state of the army as it is, and the absence of anti-psyker abilities too. And I can forget about my nice snipers too.
Dark Angels codex looks promising, I don't know. I'm confused as hell guys.
I regard Admech as an inherently soup based faction. Pure admech has a whole lot of hard counters ... namely any other pure faction with a codex. The good news is that Primaris psykers are 45 points and you can easily convert some skitarii guys without helmets to be admech psyckers if you give them modified fulgurite staves. Due to the various nerfs ... greyfax is now getting back to points efficient as well. She is 85 points for 2 denies that deny at +1. And she can cast a WC6 power that turns off overwatch (perfect for assisting your dragoons). Damn now I wanna run greyfax again. , a T EDIT: to the above, yeah, the Dragoon devours half the units in the admech codex. Why ever bring Sicarians, Fulgurites, Vanguard, Breachers, FistKastelons, extra TPDs, etc. An additional dragoon is always better than any of those options.
gendoikari87 wrote: Admech psyker.... how many levels of tech heresy is that? That’s gotta be like your 12th level class ability as a heretech
He is channelling the omnnissiah's light. He doesn't need to know what it is.
EDIT: if I can manage to source the basilisks (everywhere is sold out), I am seriously considering running something that isn't Cawl and Dakkabots. I think that this might be competitive in a tyranid heavy meta. STYGIES + CADIA, this has 20 points left over. You end up with 13 base CP and get refunds on a 5+ for an expected ~17CP. You would have enough CP to run the +2 to hit admech strategem and +1 to hit CADIA strategem and double repairs every turn
STYGIES Brigade TPD + 2 Enginseers [these guys have a lot of things to fix] 2 Neutrons, 1 Icarus Onager 1 Dragoon, 1 Dragoon, 1x4 Autocannon ballistari (efficient at shooting versus hive tyrants with +2 to hit strategem) 3x1 Cybernetica Datasmith (think of this as a unit of 3 terminator characters) 4x5 Rangers, 2x5 Vanguard
CADIA Spearhead Commander (5+ WLT, Relic of lost cadia for the damage) [deploy him first so you can get 5+ refunds on STYGIES infiltration] 5x1 Basilisks [hide at the corner of the board, hopefully out of LOS, feed the +1 to hit CADIA strategem as much as you can]
The Stygies chaff units spread out and die over the course of the game, while the artillery battery, onagers, and ballistari shoot as much as they can. The big problem right now for admech is that the Tyranid codex flat out devours our army. We have zero answers to melee hive tyrants and have no non-LOS shooting. Without being able to shoot out of line sight means that the artillery double shooting hive guard can go all game removing a unit a turn and you can't answer them. Admech must have basilisk support or else your opponent's non-LOS shooting will just dump all over your immobile units. I was worried about daemon primarchs before, but their supporting units are weaker now and relic of lost cadia can help balance out the lack of dakkabot firepower.
I don’t see why we can’t have psykers...mechanicus-enhanced brains ought to be adept at channeling the powers of the omnissiah as we see fit. Hell if canticles aren’t already a form of mech-enhanced psychic power then what are they lol
Octovol wrote: I don’t see why we can’t have psykers...mechanicus-enhanced brains ought to be adept at channeling the powers of the omnissiah as we see fit. Hell if canticles aren’t already a form of mech-enhanced psychic power then what are they lol
I've been working on finishing up the last couple units for my army, I will be fielding this on the weekend. Very excited for the Turtlesword class Shadowsword to reach the battlefield:
My group has started playing ITC missions so that will probably be my first experience with them. Looking forward to fielding the Shadowsword aka Turtlesword
Suzuteo wrote: Breachers would not be my first choice for a screen. They are more a troop artillery unit.
Indeed for that sort of price point you could field 2 dragoons for an infinitely better screen.
Sure they have far greater survivability, but they can't contribute to your shooting and they aren't troops and so are lacking objective secured.
I guess it's a bit of a trade off, but I will try both.
Screening means those Breachers aren't shooting either, as they are there to eat charges. That is why they are not good to screen. The Dragoon can eat the charge, survive shooting better, and then if it lives it can go on to take unclaimed objectives with their superior mobility.
And I would argue even if Breachers are shooting, are they really contributing?! Their guns are just so mediocre.
Breachers guns are actually quite good (if they have their ideal targets) its their poor BS that makes them meh at shooting. Heavy Arc Rifles are excellent and firing 6 shots at a tank or transport is likely to cripple it (I'm assuming rerolls to hit are involved). Torsion cannons are very scary for your opponent as few things even get a save against them, too bad they almost always miss for me, even with Cawl.
ph34r wrote: I've been working on finishing up the last couple units for my army, I will be fielding this on the weekend. Very excited for the Turtlesword class Shadowsword to reach the battlefield:
My group has started playing ITC missions so that will probably be my first experience with them. Looking forward to fielding the Shadowsword aka Turtlesword
Read page 132 of the guard codex very carefully before you run that list.
"If your army is battleforged, all REGIMENT units in an ASTRA MILITARUM detachment (excluding those in Super heavy aux detachments)[u] gain a regimental doctrine ...
Wulfey wrote: Read page 132 of the guard codex very carefully before you run that list.
"If your army is battleforged, all REGIMENT units in an ASTRA MILITARUM detachment (excluding those in Super heavy aux detachments)[u] gain a regimental doctrine ...
Yup, I'm aware. I considered the utility of having the doctrine on it, and honestly without any buffs at all I think the shadowsword is still going to obliterate whatever it shoots at. No need to throw more points buffing something that is already overkill?
Wulfey wrote: Read page 132 of the guard codex very carefully before you run that list.
"If your army is battleforged, all REGIMENT units in an ASTRA MILITARUM detachment (excluding those in Super heavy aux detachments)[u] gain a regimental doctrine ...
Yup, I'm aware. I considered the utility of having the doctrine on it, and honestly without any buffs at all I think the shadowsword is still going to obliterate whatever it shoots at. No need to throw more points buffing something that is already overkill?
I pondered bringing some kind of baneblade equivalent but I kept running into problems keeping it alive. You can heal it twice with the admech strategem which is nice. You could turn those stormtroopers and master of ordinance into 3 primaris psykers and make the shadowsword a VALHALLAN shadowsword in a supreme command detachment, that way it won't take penalties until it is down to 6 wounds. The primaris have two spells that can buff the tank's survivability (+1 to saves and -1 to be hit). But if you go second and the other guy has -4 weaponry ... you just can't keep that tank on the board cause it doesn't have an invul.
The main plan is essentially to hide the Shadowsword out of LoS entirely turn 1, and just move out from behind the object after their turn 1 if they went first.
ph34r wrote: The main plan is essentially to hide the Shadowsword out of LoS entirely turn 1, and just move out from behind the object after their turn 1 if they went first.
What kind of terrain are you using that you can hide an entire Shadowsword behind? With the terrain works right now that has to be some kind of miracle unless you play with nothing but giant rocks on the table.
Yoda79 wrote: Void shield generator. Thats what we did for APocal game.
Well worth the investment against an alpha strike.
Make your army elitish to get a chance to go first most of the times also helps now the seize has no rerolls.
Not going to fit a Shadowsword under that bubble, I don't think. Hull is just too big to be completely within.
Which really goes for our whole faction, too. I ran into that annoyance when I was building a display board and my starting size was half what was needed to hold the massive rounds and ovals we use.
kastelen wrote: Did we completely lose the melee weapon for the dunecrawler or is it still drifting around in the index?
Nerfed out of existence. They went back and wrote rules for every last carnifex bit on the sprue ... but we managed to lose stats for a vary obvious part that had cool rules in 7th.
kastelen wrote: Did we completely lose the melee weapon for the dunecrawler or is it still drifting around in the index?
Nerfed out of existence. They went back and wrote rules for every last carnifex bit on the sprue ... but we managed to lose stats for a vary obvious part that had cool rules in 7th.
*sigh* With every new Codex, the whole feeling of just being a weak copy-paste half-assery Codex just grows stronger.
Also, anyone else noticing the CP regen stuff on pretty much all other factions comes in at 5+? We are stuck with 6+ because.... reasons.
EDIT: if I can manage to source the basilisks (everywhere is sold out), I am seriously considering running something that isn't Cawl and Dakkabots.
I got the legion ones from forgeworld if you want to pay a few extra, they also look cooler with my GSC, and Ad Mech with the heavy duty look.
I've been playing GK since the start of 8th since Gate of infinity sounded like a fun change up from shooting, but recently got back with the Omnissiah. Been playing around with 2 lists:
The first one with the Heavy Weapons Teams I liked for the LOS shooting that also could double as a screen, the extra shooting was definitely nice but felt a bit over kill and to many times did I want to move them but the -1 is rough. Ratlings did a good job at being annoying but having to roll off infiltrators made the made purpose of bringing them a bit less desirable.
The second one I've been liking a bit more but tempted to pull 1 Dakkabot and Commander to replace with 2 Psykers and another infantry squad to help deal with psyker heavy lists, Greyfax, and Culexus would be cool but not sure if its worth giving up the CP regen. The extra single unit dragoons are great at just blocking paths or sitting on an objective with the 3x unit roams and kills
Yes the fact we have numerous relics and WTs that are just obviously inferior to options in other armies continues to be one of the more mystifying aspects of our codex. The units I get because most of our units are weird, even our basic infantry sits in sort of middle ground between elite infantry. But not the WT/relic issues.
kastelen wrote: Did we completely lose the melee weapon for the dunecrawler or is it still drifting around in the index?
Nerfed out of existence. They went back and wrote rules for every last carnifex bit on the sprue ... but we managed to lose stats for a vary obvious part that had cool rules in 7th.
*sigh* With every new Codex, the whole feeling of just being a weak copy-paste half-assery Codex just grows stronger.
Also, anyone else noticing the CP regen stuff on pretty much all other factions comes in at 5+? We are stuck with 6+ because.... reasons.
Ours is on a 6+ but works when the opponent uses a Stratagem too, no other faction has it I believe.
Arachnofiend wrote: If you think the math is misleading, prove it by winning a major. Unless you can show AdMech competing at top tables then for all we know you're just seal-clubbing inferior players at your local scene who look up netlists but don't understand them.
I am fairly certain that saying "math is less important than tactics" is not the same thing as saying "I am tactically proficient enough to compete at the top tables and win a major"
Ours is on a 6+ but works when the opponent uses a Stratagem too, no other faction has it I believe.
Ours is a 6+/6+. Most people have a 5+/0 or 0/5+, so the math works out. That being said, we have really bad relics, so in terms of opportunity cost, it is preferable to just go for the 5+/5+.
Ours is on a 6+ but works when the opponent uses a Stratagem too, no other faction has it I believe.
Ours is a 6+/6+. Most people have a 5+/0 or 0/5+, so the math works out. That being said, we have really bad relics, so in terms of opportunity cost, it is preferable to just go for the 5+/5+.
Ours is on a 6+ but works when the opponent uses a Stratagem too, no other faction has it I believe.
Ours is a 6+/6+. Most people have a 5+/0 or 0/5+, so the math works out. That being said, we have really bad relics, so in terms of opportunity cost, it is preferable to just go for the 5+/5+.
kastelen wrote: Did we completely lose the melee weapon for the dunecrawler or is it still drifting around in the index?
Nerfed out of existence. They went back and wrote rules for every last carnifex bit on the sprue ... but we managed to lose stats for a vary obvious part that had cool rules in 7th.
*sigh* With every new Codex, the whole feeling of just being a weak copy-paste half-assery Codex just grows stronger.
Also, anyone else noticing the CP regen stuff on pretty much all other factions comes in at 5+? We are stuck with 6+ because.... reasons.
kastelen wrote: Did we completely lose the melee weapon for the dunecrawler or is it still drifting around in the index?
Nerfed out of existence. They went back and wrote rules for every last carnifex bit on the sprue ... but we managed to lose stats for a vary obvious part that had cool rules in 7th.
*sigh* With every new Codex, the whole feeling of just being a weak copy-paste half-assery Codex just grows stronger.
Also, anyone else noticing the CP regen stuff on pretty much all other factions comes in at 5+? We are stuck with 6+ because.... reasons.
So far, 3 factions have it on a 6+, two on a 5+.
Is that counting Dark Angels who had it previewed?
Ours is on a 6+ but works when the opponent uses a Stratagem too, no other faction has it I believe.
Ours is a 6+/6+. Most people have a 5+/0 or 0/5+, so the math works out. That being said, we have really bad relics, so in terms of opportunity cost, it is preferable to just go for the 5+/5+.
This. 30-60pt to get a 5+/5+ is just too good.
Well it has to be at least 70, I think.
I didn't look to see what Company Commanders got bumped to in CA. It was 30pt for a CC, two being 60pt. One with a relic, one with the trait. Then fill out with three troops and boom, 3CP, cannon fodder, and 5+/5+ CP regen.
I missed the DA preview, I was thinking of the BA trait and the guard one for the 5+, new Tau, Eldar, and us for the 6+. I don't know if Marines/GK or new Da get one as well, they might.
kastelen wrote: Did we completely lose the melee weapon for the dunecrawler or is it still drifting around in the index?
Nerfed out of existence. They went back and wrote rules for every last carnifex bit on the sprue ... but we managed to lose stats for a vary obvious part that had cool rules in 7th.
*sigh* With every new Codex, the whole feeling of just being a weak copy-paste half-assery Codex just grows stronger.
Also, anyone else noticing the CP regen stuff on pretty much all other factions comes in at 5+? We are stuck with 6+ because.... reasons.
So far, 3 factions have it on a 6+, two on a 5+.
Is that counting Dark Angels who had it previewed?
Ours is on a 6+ but works when the opponent uses a Stratagem too, no other faction has it I believe.
Ours is a 6+/6+. Most people have a 5+/0 or 0/5+, so the math works out. That being said, we have really bad relics, so in terms of opportunity cost, it is preferable to just go for the 5+/5+.
This. 30-60pt to get a 5+/5+ is just too good.
Well it has to be at least 70, I think.
I didn't look to see what Company Commanders got bumped to in CA. It was 30pt for a CC, two being 60pt. One with a relic, one with the trait. Then fill out with three troops and boom, 3CP, cannon fodder, and 5+/5+ CP regen.
I think you have to have an Astra Militarum detachment to make an AM warlord have the AM relic.
So it'd be a Patrol detachment of 0CP for 1 Company Commander with both WT and Relic, and 10 infantry, or 180 points for 2 Company Commanders and 30 infantry with 3 CP.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Well, 50pts more and a comparatively effortless Slay The Warlord, but yes.
Just tuck him out of LoS if you see Snipers. Being a character, unless literally everything else near him is dead, they can't target him.
My experience for losing characters has been to close combat drops out the back of fast-moving flyers, or the flyers themselves if I try to hide him somewhere.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Well, 50pts more and a comparatively effortless Slay The Warlord, but yes.
Just tuck him out of LoS if you see Snipers. Being a character, unless literally everything else near him is dead, they can't target him.
My experience for losing characters has been to close combat drops out the back of fast-moving flyers, or the flyers themselves if I try to hide him somewhere.
You got to make sure you don't leave room for infiltrators or flying units to get behind you easily.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Well, 50pts more and a comparatively effortless Slay The Warlord, but yes.
Just tuck him out of LoS if you see Snipers. Being a character, unless literally everything else near him is dead, they can't target him.
My experience for losing characters has been to close combat drops out the back of fast-moving flyers, or the flyers themselves if I try to hide him somewhere.
You got to make sure you don't leave room for infiltrators or flying units to get behind you easily.
Yes, you do, though that's easier said than done. Most of what I've experienced is flyers dicking around murdering things, until either I lose the objective war or have to move out, then the people inside the flyer drop out and ram headfirst into wherever the Warlord is and what's around him. After the flyer blenderizes it of course.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Well, 50pts more and a comparatively effortless Slay The Warlord, but yes.
Just tuck him out of LoS if you see Snipers. Being a character, unless literally everything else near him is dead, they can't target him.
My experience for losing characters has been to close combat drops out the back of fast-moving flyers, or the flyers themselves if I try to hide him somewhere.
You got to make sure you don't leave room for infiltrators or flying units to get behind you easily.
Yes, you do, though that's easier said than done. Most of what I've experienced is flyers dicking around murdering things, until either I lose the objective war or have to move out, then the people inside the flyer drop out and ram headfirst into wherever the Warlord is and what's around him. After the flyer blenderizes it of course.
Heh, different strokes for different armies I suppose. I was up against flyers with my Thousand Sons, the army I've had probably the second most trouble making work in 8th, and it was laughably easy to smash the flyers when they were out in front of the enemy army and were always in range for the wall of smites. When I play my orks though? I take 3 turns to make a dent in even the lightest flyer. stupid hit modifiers...
Unit1126PLL wrote: Well, 50pts more and a comparatively effortless Slay The Warlord, but yes.
Just tuck him out of LoS if you see Snipers. Being a character, unless literally everything else near him is dead, they can't target him.
My experience for losing characters has been to close combat drops out the back of fast-moving flyers, or the flyers themselves if I try to hide him somewhere.
You got to make sure you don't leave room for infiltrators or flying units to get behind you easily.
Yes, you do, though that's easier said than done. Most of what I've experienced is flyers dicking around murdering things, until either I lose the objective war or have to move out, then the people inside the flyer drop out and ram headfirst into wherever the Warlord is and what's around him. After the flyer blenderizes it of course.
I usually drop flyers ASAP. Especially transports. Buffed Neutronagers do some hurt. As does the Icarus.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Well, 50pts more and a comparatively effortless Slay The Warlord, but yes.
Just tuck him out of LoS if you see Snipers. Being a character, unless literally everything else near him is dead, they can't target him.
My experience for losing characters has been to close combat drops out the back of fast-moving flyers, or the flyers themselves if I try to hide him somewhere.
You got to make sure you don't leave room for infiltrators or flying units to get behind you easily.
Yes, you do, though that's easier said than done. Most of what I've experienced is flyers dicking around murdering things, until either I lose the objective war or have to move out, then the people inside the flyer drop out and ram headfirst into wherever the Warlord is and what's around him. After the flyer blenderizes it of course.
I usually drop flyers ASAP. Especially transports. Buffed Neutronagers do some hurt. As does the Icarus.
Yes, if you can. Not all armies can, e.g. the_scotsman pointed out.
But we're off tangent; suffice to say the IG 5+/5+ is awesome and handy, but has the major flaw of more easily giving up Slay the Warlord than just bringing a Tech-Priest Dominus and giving the IG the Relic for 1 Cp. That way, you get 6+/6+ and 0/5+ everytime anything happens, without giving up slay the warlord so easily.
We are talking AdMech, not other armies. So not sure what the point there is about other armies.
And there is no major flaw, imo. The IG detachment gives you three 10-man squads for assault buffer, two characters that you can hide, and all for not much investment in points (240pt if you go for Lascannons).
The fretting about Slay the Warlord is just silly to me, given the utility the 5+/5+ offers our CP reliant army and the ease with which you can bury him in your army for safety.
Being able to comfortably Wrath for three turns can't be understated.
Now that chapter reduced our troops cost and hq seems more and more valid to field pure ad mech. Yet my super competitive list will have guard when allowed still for a better 5+/5+ relic trait even if i have to dug in my warlord. and ofc for los shooting and /or phsychers. Cant do nothing about that. Even when i use graia instead of Guard i gotta pay min 34 points tax since engonseers are trash and got no rooom in my army and ofc the troops infantry guard still better with orders etc. If able i use them.
Still wwont be extremely different with ad mech now if not the 1-2 basilisks and 1-2 pshychers.
and yes i sue the 6+/6+ techomartyr when i solo ad mech. definetly not autocadeus trash.
wont use lascannon cause their balistic suck and honestly i shoot better with ad mech. Guard provide only what i dont have . LOS somortar or basilisk mainly basilisk atm and ofc pshych. lasc spam etc i care not to play. if you like it play guard all the way.
But we're off tangent; suffice to say the IG 5+/5+ is awesome and handy, but has the major flaw of more easily giving up Slay the Warlord than just bringing a Tech-Priest Dominus and giving the IG the Relic for 1 Cp. That way, you get 6+/6+ and 0/5+ everytime anything happens, without giving up slay the warlord so easily.
You can’t do that. You can only choose relics from the army of your warlord.
If your army is led by anADEPTUS MECHANICUS Warlord, then before the battle you may give one of the following Arcana Mechanicus to an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS CHARACTER
Which army the free relic goes to is decided by who your warlord is, but you can use the stratagem to pay for a relic from any faction (so long as you have a detachment to unlock stratagems with, of course).
Arachnofiend wrote: Which army the free relic goes to is decided by who your warlord is, but you can use the stratagem to pay for a relic from any faction (so long as you have a detachment to unlock stratagems with, of course).
I would disagree, both in RAW and in RAI. RAW clearly states "extra" relics. You cannot have an "extra" Arcana Mechanicum relic if you never had one to begin with. RAI makes me doubt they want to allow you to spam multiple copies of what is essentially the same relic for each of your armies.
Arachnofiend wrote: Which army the free relic goes to is decided by who your warlord is, but you can use the stratagem to pay for a relic from any faction (so long as you have a detachment to unlock stratagems with, of course).
I don't think that is right. The Strategems all say "Your army can have one extra relic from the <RELICS OF FACTION> for 1CP ..."
EXTRA and FROM sounds like the extra is in addition to a relic your already took from RELICS OF FACTION.
Have you seen a ruling on this anywhere? I am almost open to the idea that you can by off-warlord-faction relics for CP, but that extra implies extra to the one you already have.
And yeah, rules and intended I can't imagine that GW meant that I can buy 1 relic from several different codexes for CP. That seems way off from the relics-to-warlord-linkage rule.
Arachnofiend wrote: Which army the free relic goes to is decided by who your warlord is, but you can use the stratagem to pay for a relic from any faction (so long as you have a detachment to unlock stratagems with, of course).
All this is covered in the Death Guard FAQ as a general answer to a question that used CSM and DG as the example.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
In this case, the Warlord is clearly a CSM character, but the DG stratagem was used to give a DG character a relic. The Warlord was not a determining factor in who got what.
Arachnofiend wrote: Which army the free relic goes to is decided by who your warlord is, but you can use the stratagem to pay for a relic from any faction (so long as you have a detachment to unlock stratagems with, of course).
All this is covered in the Death Guard FAQ as a general answer to a question that used CSM and DG as the example.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
In this case, the Warlord is clearly a CSM character, but the DG stratagem was used to give a DG character a relic. The Warlord was not a determining factor in who got what.
Okay then. Time to update my theory crafting. I will cite that to justify throwing in all kinds of silly relics using strategems. Might as well go for a full soup load.
So Monitor Malevolus + Kurov's Aquila + Adept of the Codex is a thing? (6+,5+/6+,5+) That can't be right...
Basically.
Why anyone wouldn't take the Aquila if they have allied Guard is beyond me. That would be the first pre-game CP I spent.
Though I wouldn't be surprised to see the use of the stratagems that grant access to relics get FAQ's to be limited to 1 per army rather then per codex detachment. Otherwise you could have 3 detachments (from separate books) and only spend 2CP to get a relic in each. Normally that would be 3CP for a single codex army.
So Monitor Malevolus + Kurov's Aquila + Adept of the Codex is a thing? (6+,5+/6+,5+) That can't be right...
Basically.
Why anyone wouldn't take the Aquila if they have allied Guard is beyond me. That would be the first pre-game CP I spent.
Though I wouldn't be surprised to see the use of the stratagems that grant access to relics get FAQ's to be limited to 1 per army rather then per codex detachment. Otherwise you could have 3 detachments (from separate books) and only spend 2CP to get a relic in each. Normally that would be 3CP for a single codex army.
I don't like to play with words or abuse a rule to do what ? Broken trash. If you opp seems to use those kind of ruling go ahead I'm not gonna go to my community with this crap.
I like the game it's a hobby I want my army balanced and I use Robots cause all armies got some form of super combo unit etc. This talk is bad !!
Are Vindicators any good? That Linebreaker Bombardment looks pretty sick, but the 24" range gives me pause. (Seems like you can still use it after advancing though... unless it replaces a shooting attack?)
Like... Breachers are 1,35 lasgun? What? Is that how many shots from that weapon it takes to kill them or something?
Me no understando.
It's how much of x gun does it take to kill y unit. Divided by pts cost. So if I change 40 to 1 and 4 to 1, it would say how much shots it takes to kill one of each of those units. You can download the file in my signature and check it out for yourself
Arachnofiend wrote: Which army the free relic goes to is decided by who your warlord is, but you can use the stratagem to pay for a relic from any faction (so long as you have a detachment to unlock stratagems with, of course).
All this is covered in the Death Guard FAQ as a general answer to a question that used CSM and DG as the example.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
In this case, the Warlord is clearly a CSM character, but the DG stratagem was used to give a DG character a relic. The Warlord was not a determining factor in who got what.
No. Just no. What you're basically saying is that the rules in the codex for assigning a relic to a model are ignored when using a strategm of the same codex because the strategm itself doesnt say you explicitly have to follow the rules in the codex.
This kind of shenanegans is why the tournament going elite are so frowned upon and why your opinions and values on matters are oftentimes not respected.
There is no way in hell i would allow that ruling in any game i participate in. Doesn't matter what your interpretation of the ruling is, it's not RAW and It is 100% not intended and you are 100% taking advantage of the wording of the strategm not repeating the wording in the codex.
Like... Breachers are 1,35 lasgun? What? Is that how many shots from that weapon it takes to kill them or something?
Me no understando.
I believe it's meant to be "durability per point spent."
Obviously a 40 point breacher will take WAYYYYYYY more lasguns to kill than a 4-point guardsmen, but 10 guardsmen need to die before the one breacher is worth it, and the graph shows its almost as points efficient to unload lasguns into the breacher as it is to shoot them at the guardsmen.
Arachnofiend wrote: Which army the free relic goes to is decided by who your warlord is, but you can use the stratagem to pay for a relic from any faction (so long as you have a detachment to unlock stratagems with, of course).
All this is covered in the Death Guard FAQ as a general answer to a question that used CSM and DG as the example.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
In this case, the Warlord is clearly a CSM character, but the DG stratagem was used to give a DG character a relic. The Warlord was not a determining factor in who got what.
No. Just no. What you're basically saying is that the rules in the codex for assigning a relic to a model are ignored when using a strategm of the same codex because the strategm itself doesnt say you explicitly have to follow the rules in the codex.
This kind of shenanegans is why the tournament going elite are so frowned upon and why your opinions and values on matters are oftentimes not respected.
There is no way in hell i would allow that ruling in any game i participate in. Doesn't matter what your interpretation of the ruling is, it's not RAW and It is 100% not intended and you are 100% taking advantage of the wording of the strategm not repeating the wording in the codex.
I’m confused – it seems clear to me, that RAW (and cleared RAI due to the FAQ) the stratagem for taking extra relics follows a different set of rules to the free relic you get for your Warlords detachment. As it is also cleared stated in the FAQ, I don’t see how this is “shenanigans”.
The term “extra” means, additional – so, by using the stratagem for an Admech detachment, I would be allowed to include an additional admech relic in my battleforged army. It doesn’t matter if my Warlord detachment is Space Marines, as the faction taking the relic and using the stratagem is Admech. Without the stratagem, the Admech wouldn’t usually be able to take a relic, so the “extra” turns it from 0 relics to 1 relic.
Don’t confuse stratagems with the requirements for the free relic.
Now, does it potentially lead to some stupid combinations? Yes, of course it does, just like numerous other things in 40k does, but I’m failing to understand what is driving such a massively hostile response from you.
Arachnofiend wrote: Which army the free relic goes to is decided by who your warlord is, but you can use the stratagem to pay for a relic from any faction (so long as you have a detachment to unlock stratagems with, of course).
All this is covered in the Death Guard FAQ as a general answer to a question that used CSM and DG as the example.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
In this case, the Warlord is clearly a CSM character, but the DG stratagem was used to give a DG character a relic. The Warlord was not a determining factor in who got what.
No. Just no. What you're basically saying is that the rules in the codex for assigning a relic to a model are ignored when using a strategm of the same codex because the strategm itself doesnt say you explicitly have to follow the rules in the codex.
This kind of shenanegans is why the tournament going elite are so frowned upon and why your opinions and values on matters are oftentimes not respected.
There is no way in hell i would allow that ruling in any game i participate in. Doesn't matter what your interpretation of the ruling is, it's not RAW and It is 100% not intended and you are 100% taking advantage of the wording of the strategm not repeating the wording in the codex.
I didn't write the FAQ, GW did.
And its explicit. Its asks "can you do this" and their response is an emphatic "yes". I don't know how you get it being "unintended" when its a straight forward question with a crystal clear answer.
Its pointless to come after me for it like I had something to do with it. I'd also refrain on assuming that because I copy and pasted a GWFAQ that I am some kind of "tournament elite" who's opinion is to be frowned upon.
I hate to say it but I want to play mechanicus (see my post about my 30k army!) but with so few unit options I just can't get around the 40k list.
I look at it and I'm like "These look awesome! But... there's just not enough stuff that inspires me."
Like I feel inspired by the Battle Servitors, but there's not really any way in which they're better / more synergetic than Skitarii or Robots or Onagers. I like the Robots, but they seem so mono-dimensional (by design) compared to their 30k counterparts. I think the Onager is pretty neat, but the vehicle just doesn't impress me the way a Leman Russ does; it's "neato thing" is that it has a 5++. Compared to last edition, when its neato thing was that it could have a Dreadnought CCW as well as Russ-ish firepower... well, I'm not impressed, really.
Have faith, fires will have the vorax and they’ll be more awesome than kastellans mixed with goondozer and the thanatar will make neutronagers look like pea shooters
There will also be rules for Dark Mechanicum, with the Chaos keyword. And Archmagos Draykavac on his Abeyant will have 10" movement and reroll 1s during shooting and fighting.
Suzuteo wrote: There will also be rules for Dark Mechanicum, with the Chaos keyword. And Archmagos Draykavac on his Abeyant will have 10" movement and reroll 1s during shooting and fighting.
They already have a Dark Mechanicus Hellwright on Abeyant rule.
But he doesn't have anything cool. He sort of just dicks around, and taking the Dark Mechanicus instead of Legion keyword for him just makes it worse, as he has even less stuff he can repair.
Suzuteo wrote: There will also be rules for Dark Mechanicum, with the Chaos keyword. And Archmagos Draykavac on his Abeyant will have 10" movement and reroll 1s during shooting and fighting.
They already have a Dark Mechanicus Hellwright on Abeyant rule.
But he doesn't have anything cool. He sort of just dicks around, and taking the Dark Mechanicus instead of Legion keyword for him just makes it worse, as he has even less stuff he can repair.
I meant for every AdMech model. The only difference being that your faction keyword is Chaos and not Imperium. So you can bring Renegade Knights and Guard.
I think this last chapter approved made it pretty clear that GW does not want Forgeworld stomping tournaments anymore. GW wants their plastic game to be almost a competitive game, instead of some kind of 'who has the most resin' contest. Were GW to release some kind of Fires of Ciraxus book with wildy OP resin mechanicum models ... you can expect a nerf of all those rules within 2 months of release.
Also, if you play for the coolness of the models not the power of the rules, Admech is in a fine place now. All the non-competitive models are less horrendous thanks to chapter approved. Kataphrons are still cool. They are just baddish.
EDIT: you know what I want more than fires of Ciraxus? A patch for the plastic models. We need a few new things:
(1) Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard HQs, 3 wounds, characters, 40 points, same equipment options, 3 attacks (2) Sicarian HQ, 4 wounds, 50 points, same equipment options, 4/5 attacks based on equip (3) ArchMagos strategem: for 3CP, upgrade your TDP to an arch magos and get the full reroll to hit aura. (4) 'scout' for skitarii/sicarians just like the vanguard move from the sister's fast attack models
Arachnofiend wrote: Which army the free relic goes to is decided by who your warlord is, but you can use the stratagem to pay for a relic from any faction (so long as you have a detachment to unlock stratagems with, of course).
All this is covered in the Death Guard FAQ as a general answer to a question that used CSM and DG as the example.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
In this case, the Warlord is clearly a CSM character, but the DG stratagem was used to give a DG character a relic. The Warlord was not a determining factor in who got what.
No. Just no. What you're basically saying is that the rules in the codex for assigning a relic to a model are ignored when using a strategm of the same codex because the strategm itself doesnt say you explicitly have to follow the rules in the codex.
This kind of shenanegans is why the tournament going elite are so frowned upon and why your opinions and values on matters are oftentimes not respected.
There is no way in hell i would allow that ruling in any game i participate in. Doesn't matter what your interpretation of the ruling is, it's not RAW and It is 100% not intended and you are 100% taking advantage of the wording of the strategm not repeating the wording in the codex.
I didn't write the FAQ, GW did.
And its explicit. Its asks "can you do this" and their response is an emphatic "yes". I don't know how you get it being "unintended" when its a straight forward question with a crystal clear answer.
Its pointless to come after me for it like I had something to do with it. I'd also refrain on assuming that because I copy and pasted a GWFAQ that I am some kind of "tournament elite" who's opinion is to be frowned upon.
The FAQ says you can use the strategm, it does not say that the strategm ignores the rules for giving relics to models. "extra relic" implies you already have one, but also implies that it's just an extra relic regardless of where your first came from. Ambiguity which I firmly believe is unintended. No-one in their right mind would allow an army list to have multiple options for regaining CP from the same action. We had to house rule our 2k doubles that each of us which a CP regaining ability had to nominate one of the 2 opponents that would trigger the ability or we would have an artificially greater chance of regaining CP than usual.
You do what you want, but i wont be taking part in a battle where such cretinous abuse of the rules takes place and I will have a suitably diminished opinion of anyone who advocates the use of such abuse.
--
On an unrelated note: Interesting point on BoLS today that CA included no points updates to Tau. Which may or may not indicate that their codex is close at hand. Which may or may not indicate that fires of cyraxus is closeR at hand.
EDIT: you know what I want more than fires of Ciraxus? A patch for the plastic models. We need a few new things:
(1) Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard HQs, 3 wounds, characters, 40 points, same equipment options, 3 attacks
(2) Sicarian HQ, 4 wounds, 50 points, same equipment options, 4/5 attacks based on equip
(3) ArchMagos strategem: for 3CP, upgrade your TDP to an arch magos and get the full reroll to hit aura.
(4) 'scout' for skitarii/sicarians just like the vanguard move from the sister's fast attack models
Unit1126PLL wrote: Boy I'm a bit more ambitious than you guys. From Fires, I'd like:
A full port of the 30k units to 40k, including new troops, tanks, flyers, heavy support, transports, and other machines.
A way to build a dark mechanicus army out of same, possibly a return of Anacharis Scoria.
new stratagems/other neato stuff.
We know we are getting Thantars from previous Forgeworld Day presentations. I also think we will get Secutarii Units and the Ordinatus LoWs because they previously had 7th rules.
Two things though:
1. We are sharing the book with Red Scorpions, so we can expect them to take up a few unit slots.
2. GW seems to be taking the stand of limiting ForgeWorld's competitive use to not scare away new / casual players. If they doubled the codex units by fully integrating 30k there will be massive pressure for players to buy resin which I dont think is their current strategy.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I hate to say it but I want to play mechanicus (see my post about my 30k army!) but with so few unit options I just can't get around the 40k list.
I look at it and I'm like "These look awesome! But... there's just not enough stuff that inspires me."
Like I feel inspired by the Battle Servitors, but there's not really any way in which they're better / more synergetic than Skitarii or Robots or Onagers. I like the Robots, but they seem so mono-dimensional (by design) compared to their 30k counterparts. I think the Onager is pretty neat, but the vehicle just doesn't impress me the way a Leman Russ does; it's "neato thing" is that it has a 5++. Compared to last edition, when its neato thing was that it could have a Dreadnought CCW as well as Russ-ish firepower... well, I'm not impressed, really.
That sort of thing.
Their battle servitors are my favorite models. I have 9 breachers and 9 destroyers. The good news if you can fill up a 2000pts list reaaally quickly with just a few models, which makes transporting them super easy! Play Admech for the rule of cool and no matter how badly they screw up certain models (looking at you ruststalkers) you can still play them and be happy knowing how cool they look.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Doing a damage chart. Turns out - vanguard are pretty amazing.
what is really amazing is their efficiency against tanks even with just the radium carbines. Point for point the radium carbine is more efficient at killing tanks than a neutronager. Sure against tanks they only wound on a 6..... know what also triggers on a 6 to wound with them? 2 damage. they also each get 3 shots which is not as much a FRFSRF but it's decent and better than a lasgun.
rvd1ofakind wrote: They're almost our best unit damage and survivability wise atm. That's pretty interesting
wait survivability. i hadn't actually run those numbers yet. care to elaborate?
Eh, it's like about average :p (aka, I remembered it being better for some reason)
But damage wise it's great. Whatever :p
I have the mathammer link in my sig. I keep updating it. Made durability and damage easily viewable.
Hm, you think a list of 200 or so Blandguard with supporting elements just walking down the field and eating everything would work? My worry is being hamstrung by leadership and Heavy Bolters.
Verviedi wrote: Hm, you think a list of 200 or so Blandguard with supporting elements just walking down the field and eating everything would work? My worry is being hamstrung by leadership and Heavy Bolters.
honestly i think unless you run units of 20+ worring about leadership is overrated. 200 blandguard walking advancing and firing would be a threat. for one that's a lot of bodies to get through even with battleshock.
Verviedi wrote: Hm, you think a list of 200 or so Blandguard with supporting elements just walking down the field and eating everything would work? My worry is being hamstrung by leadership and Heavy Bolters.
honestly i think unless you run units of 20+ worring about leadership is overrated. 200 blandguard walking advancing and firing would be a threat. for one that's a lot of bodies to get through even with battleshock.
Aye, especially if you're making use of the BSDT, assuming you can keep the carrying vehicles alive.
I take it the Protector Imperative wasn't taken into account when mathing the Vanguard?
Though i guess thats no different to standard dreadnaughts.
