Not to say GK are good. An optimized list will wipe them. Also, they're not great at low points.
I've found them working best at around 1000-1500 pts. 750 and below is too low for a functionally decent batallion and you need CP. 1750 and above is too much and limited variety and problems against mass vehicles start to show up. Whereas at 1000-1500 you get all the best out of your multi-purpose units.
I mean, I wholly disagree with this.
Any strategy available to GK at 1500 points is far better executed by another flavor of Space Marines or Soup.
Who else can deepstrike a freaking landraider that shoots s5 ap1 bolters to boot? And than another 40+ shots disembark and clean up with force weapons. Hm...who else can do it really?
Who cares about a deep striking land raider? You'll kill some screens. Great. People are always surprised when I surround their land raiders with Genestealers, and they lose the raider AND the guys inside in the same turn. Deep striking the land raider makes my job even easier, and I can't wait for you to feed me like 550 points, over 1/3 of your entire list, to kill maybe 60 points in Gaunts.
Space marines have much better gambits, and aren't forced to rely on an overpriced "kill me" box.
I'm like the vending machine in American Psycho. "Feed me a land raider." Please, deep strike it in my face. Please.
I'll ask my next opponent if he is willing to let me proxy power armored Grey Knights with termintor models for an auto lose. They seem super weak though, high points cost just one wound , save even lower then terminators and 0 inv. I kind of a don't get how people can say that terminators are worse then strikes, when strikes have all defensive stats lower and all offensive stats the same.
The issue with Terminators is how common Multi Wound Weapons are. As a result of the fusion of anti monster and anti vehicle weapons, and with how common multi wounds are on medium class weapons, it is now very easy to kill 2 wound models. As such, the general trend in 8th edition is that it is more important to have firepower and bodies than it is to have good defenses and multiple wounds. In general 8th edition favors more models as opposed to more elite models, and it favors putting more guns on the table as opposed to more defensively oriented models.
The durability difference isn't as big as you make it seem. After playing more and more games, you start to realize that while invulnerable saves are really pumped up, Armor Saves are a lot better now, especially in cover. A terminator may have a 5++ invulnerable save, but that only matters against AP-4 or more. Even against a Plasma Gun with AP3, your armor save is equivalent to your invulnerable save. For a Grey Knight Terminator, that invulnerable save is really only coming into play against Melta Guns, and a Knight's Thunderstrike Gauntlet. With the way cover works now, your Grey Knight Strikers can enjoy similar protection. A Power Armored Grey Knight will have a 2+ save in cover, against a Plasma shot, you will have a 5+ armor save while in cover. Furthermore, every unsaved would you suffer from an overcharged plasma gun is one dead terminator or one dead PAGK Striker. When you inevitably start failing saves and picking up models, its much better to be picking up Strikers than a Termie. And to add insult to injury, Strikes are cheaper, which means more guns and swords on the table. More Stormbolters, More Falcions, More Death. That their offensive stats are the same per model, the offense edge goes to the squad that can afford more models.
The issue with GK is even your power armor guys are expensive, and it hurts when you have to remove models, regardless of what they are.
Karol wrote: So what am I suppose to do now? I don't have any ravens or land raiders.
But an escalation league shouldn't have you facing optimized lists - that's just a trap.
I don't know what an optimised list, but the only difference between the armies we play with and the armies that people that play longer is that their armies are painted.
I'll ask my next opponent if he is willing to let me proxy power armored Grey Knights with termintor models for an auto lose. They seem super weak though, high points cost just one wound , save even lower then terminators and 0 inv. I kind of a don't get how people can say that terminators are worse then strikes, when strikes have all defensive stats lower and all offensive stats the same.
"What do I do if my army stinks?" is a bit of an age old question, and there isn't really one answer, but I'll take a shot at it.
The first thing I think you need to do is ask yourself why you are playing 40k at all. It's likely some mixture of liking the fluff, it being a fun social thing to do, the game just being really fun, the armies being cool, liking to build and paint the models, and so on, but everyone is going to have slightly different ratios of what they enjoy in particular about the hobby.
Regardless of your ratios, you have a few options in front of you:
1. If you just like the Grey Knights (painting them, modeling them, playing them, etc) keep on playing with what you have, learning as much as you can from the games you play, and build up your collection as you go. You might not win very many games with Grey Knights, but the more games you play the better you'll get at the game, and although playing GK is definitely 40K hard-mode, it's clearly not impossible to win games, especially random pick games against people with mediocre lists. In a year or so once you have a big collection all painted and beautiful, it's entirely possible they will perform much better. You could start an Eldar right now since they are so good, and depending on how fast you buy, build, and paint up an army, it's possible that they won't be nearly as good anymore (since there are likely to be FAQs, Chapter Approved, etc changing the game between now and then) by the time they are done, and then you'd wish you stuck with grey knights. This is the option i would pick if you really just love grey knights.
2. Take a break from grey knights and play another army. It's entirely possible that you can shelve the grey knights, start another faction, and enjoy that a lot more. I might suggest that you pick an Imperial faction so as to at least potentially be able to make use of your Grey Knight stuff if they ever get decent, but you could always do chaos or xenos instead. This is the option i would choose if you know that you don't want most games to be uphill battles, and think you could get interested in another army.
Then, no matter which option you choose, I think it's apparent you should do a few other things before building up your collection, because it is definitely annoying to find out the two rhinos you bought aren't very good (trust me i own 12 of them lol) or that they don't even fit the terminators you have with them:
1) Research units and armies before you buy them. I would read codexes, watch battle reports, listen to podcasts, read threads, and talk to internet people about units before you buy them, and also get a general idea of what you want your initial end result 2000 point list to look like as you build up your collection. Haphazardly buying units because they are cool is fine if you really want to pain them and care more about having a cool army than a good army, but it's not really the way to win a ton of games. A good balanced army if going to generally have a theme or strategy, and each unit you use has to have a use and ideally solve some kind of problem for you.
2) Play more games, either with GK, proxy, borrowed armies, and so on. Learning how the game works is going to make you understand why certain things are good, other things are bad, and so on. It will also help you make fewer bad decisions in the games you play, which will help you win more, and create better lists, even with grey knights.
Ok, thank you everyone. I wanted to avoid buying more stuff, as it is all very expensive. I needed something to do durning summer, because my parents sold my consol. I doubt I will get any money to buy GKs or a new army.
Tried to use counts as, but my opponent was not ok with it. I think I will play something like Draigo, 3 paladin ancients 1 apothecary, the 2 rhinos and 2x5 paladins for now, and hope that GW will change the points costs of Grey Knights. How often, by the way, does GW update their rules, once every each year?
Karol wrote: Ok, thank you everyone. I wanted to avoid buying more stuff, as it is all very expensive. I needed something to do durning summer, because my parents sold my consol. I doubt I will get any money to buy GKs or a new army.
Tried to use counts as, but my opponent was not ok with it. I think I will play something like Draigo, 3 paladin ancients 1 apothecary, the 2 rhinos and 2x5 paladins for now, and hope that GW will change the points costs of Grey Knights. How often, by the way, does GW update their rules, once every each year?
GW updates their products rule twice a year (March and September) and releases a Chapter approved with more rules and changes on December.
But, according with the last Cruddace declaration, GK will have a new treatment in the next CA, so we have to wait December to have at least some point reductions.
With most armies, the "What to do when my army sucks" is usually "wait". Most armies are OP at some point over a relatively short period (although some armies are OP more often than others). The exception is "secondary" or "supplemental" armies. I wouldn't hold my breath for Inquisition, Harlies, etc to be Top Dog the same way the "main armies" are.
GK are in a bad spot because they appear to be migrating/have migrated from "main" to "supplemental" recently.
If you're looking for a tight rulesset to fight competitive games on with strong balance, 40k just isn't that game. It could be closer, but it's modeled more on stylistic armies with super-special-snowflakes strewn throughout. Honestly, most other games are better at being a competitive challenge than 40k.
But what other games can I play Captain Andicar of the VII company of Wings of Dawn? A company that was recently reduced to 23 members (in a game we played) as they withdrew from a Necron hive world they failed to prevent from waking up when Abbadon ambushed their last-ditch attempt to seal it (a campaign game we played, Abbadon's player reinforced the Necron player's position in my reckless last-ditch effort to prevent them from waking the tomb world).
Or Lokus, amitious over-confident Eldar Farseer who believes himself to be some great strategist and seees Tyranid consumption of the galaxy as the only way to save the Eldar race from damnation!
Or Tayanna, an ancient Uthwe Farseer with a history of meddling in fates surrounding the Phoenix Lords themselves, yet never explaining herself to the Seer Council.
Or Convus, who leads a Corsair band descended from a pre-Fall outpost observing the Void Dragon. His two potential successors - the great-great-grandaughter of the Prince who headed the outpost but is rash and enjoys the sport too much, and a former Dire Avenger who seems to be lost on the Path despite turning to the Path of the Outcast - offer very different futures for his band.
It's hard to mesh all that into a tightly balanced game. As you introduce more asymetry, more fluff-centric rules, it's really hard to keep it all fair. Imagine a World of Warcraft where a single Tauren fighter could stomp his way through a handful of Gnome fighters of the same level - that'd be more fluffy. Imagine a world where a single Gnome fighter can't feasibly take on a Tauren fighter of the same level - the players would revolt.
If you love the hobby, keep at it. If you can't get more models, you don't need to worry about what to add. If you can get more models, what do you want to assemble and paint should trump what does well on the tabletop. Because what does well on the tabletop will change.
Its also worth noting that you can get some really good performance out of your Grey Knights. Regardless of what the internet says, or what top tables at adepticon are doing.
The best kept secret on dakka, is that most players who play this game, including people who post on dakka, (and probably me included!) is that they aren't actually very good. Even up through local tournaments, its actually not *that* common to see people copy paste LVO or GT lists to run. What I mean by this is if you take Grey Knights, you listen to the constructive advice people give you, and learn and understand your army, what works, and why it works, you can put together a solid list and play it well. This will give you the tools you need to beat most players you come across. It won't be enough to win NOVA, but chances are you aren't trying to do that. Post your list, clean it up a bit. Focus on taking units that work for you and work in your meta. Learn when to use your psychic powers. You'll do well in casual settings in your local environment.
Yeah, nova is on another continent if am not wrong about it. How often do GK win smaller GT, I understand that something like world championship they don't get played, but how do the list winning local GT look like?
Right now nothing I have seems to work in my meta. All armies seem to have more command points, more shoting and some have really scary melee. I thought that GK were a melee army at first, so I tried playing them like that. But then a guy at my store showed me the error of my ways, charging my army turn and kiling everything bar the rhinos, and the strike squad inside them.
Also,and I understand this may sound ignorant, but what does "love the hobby" mean? Is it something like like very much ?
The "love the hobby" is about what interests you in the game. Do you enjoy the models? The fluff? The painting? I think it's a way to warn those who really just want to play a game that there may be better games for them, if they don't care for those things.
It's an expensive hobby. It's tons of fun. But it's not for everyone.
GK need to use both their shooty and choppy, I think. The old 'shoot the choppy, chop the shooty'. If a bunch of genestealers are running at you, step back and shoot. Don't advance until you can countercharge. If a bunch of Tau are shooting at you from a distance, drop in close and smash some skulls. Except, as GK, you need to utilize both your shooty and your choppy on the same units - so shoot before you charge, but don't expect to shoot things entirely off the table.
akaean wrote: Its also worth noting that you can get some really good performance out of your Grey Knights. Regardless of what the internet says, or what top tables at adepticon are doing.
The best kept secret on dakka, is that most players who play this game, including people who post on dakka, (and probably me included!) is that they aren't actually very good. Even up through local tournaments, its actually not *that* common to see people copy paste LVO or GT lists to run. What I mean by this is if you take Grey Knights, you listen to the constructive advice people give you, and learn and understand your army, what works, and why it works, you can put together a solid list and play it well. This will give you the tools you need to beat most players you come across. It won't be enough to win NOVA, but chances are you aren't trying to do that. Post your list, clean it up a bit. Focus on taking units that work for you and work in your meta. Learn when to use your psychic powers. You'll do well in casual settings in your local environment.
Somebody doesn't need to touch the army to do the math and understand there's a lot wrong with the codex.
Insulting the Grey Knights players by just saying they're not good and to not expect to get to a top table is, quite frankly, insulting everyone playing the army.
On the other hand, claiming that they autolose even casual games, there's nothing they can do, should be insulting to everyone who plays the game.
The comment you're refering to is in response to "How can I best field my GK". It was not a claim that GK are "fine".
He's saying "Your army isn't top dog, but you can still win games. Post your list, and we'll see what advice you can give". You're saying "That's dumb. GK are bad and you should feel bad for trying to help someone play GK better".
The post says "most players who play this game" aren't actually very good. He was not targetting GK players specifically.
Bharring wrote: On the other hand, claiming that they autolose even casual games, there's nothing they can do, should be insulting to everyone who plays the game.
The comment you're refering to is in response to "How can I best field my GK". It was not a claim that GK are "fine".
He's saying "Your army isn't top dog, but you can still win games. Post your list, and we'll see what advice you can give". You're saying "That's dumb. GK are bad and you should feel bad for trying to help someone play GK better".
The post says "most players who play this game" aren't actually very good. He was not targetting GK players specifically.
Nobody outside a couple of people said autolose. They're either autolose against an even mildly trimmed list (Yeahyeah anecdotal evidence from people saying they're fine. I counter with my own saying I have yet to lose to any game with them, and you've probably peaked at my lists I make too; I'm not even that hardcore with most of what I make) or they struggle in a casual game. The latter part is very much offensive to game balance.
Also the post IS targeting GK players. It's saying nobody else is good, so who cares because you're not good and your army is not good. It's insults everyone; it just has a target it hits more.
I'm not trying to insult GK players. I'm just saying there is a big difference between meeting up with a few regulars at a hobby shop on a weekend and attending a major event are very different environments. Surely we can agree that a streamlined GK force can do well in casual pick up games at the local GW shop or with your buddies?
Unless your ultimate goal is to build a top tier army, the competitiveness of the book doesn't matter as much in a large variety of situations. But to be fair those players need to rebuild their army and jump ship every few years or more to keep their edge.
All I'm trying to say is that while we talk a lot about hyper competitive major tournament armies and events, most games aren't played in those settings. I'm not calling GK players bad, I'm saying the vast majority of games in this hobby are not played between Kasperov and Fischer. They are played with everyday folk looking to have a good time with their sci fi models.
Getting an army capable of doing okay in casual pick up games is a reasonable challenge for any army. You don't need to take every army to a major tournament to have fun in this hobby if that isn't your goal.
EDIT: As for that weird bit about somehow interpreting what I wrote as saying "so who cares because you're not good and your army is not good." Is just wrong. My point is that if a player is willing to learn, warhammer is pretty easy to climb the ranks and get better in. There is not as much competitive depth to Warhammer players as there is to Chess or Tennis or whatever simply because comparatively fewer people play. (Likewise there is more competitive depth in warhammer players than bolt Action players and it's still a number of people playing game).
Im just saying don't give up. Approach the game with a positive attitude and learn your army and from your mistakes and you can get a lot better. When I started out I felt like list tailoring was the cheesiest thing someone could do and I hated it because it made me feel helpless. As I got better, learned my army and more strategies, I realized that those list tailoring players weren't that bad, and were easily beaten by my own well rounded take all comers lists. Being open to learning about the game is the best thing a new player can do.
Karol wrote: Ok, thank you everyone. I wanted to avoid buying more stuff, as it is all very expensive. I needed something to do durning summer, because my parents sold my consol. I doubt I will get any money to buy GKs or a new army.
Tried to use counts as, but my opponent was not ok with it. I think I will play something like Draigo, 3 paladin ancients 1 apothecary, the 2 rhinos and 2x5 paladins for now, and hope that GW will change the points costs of Grey Knights. How often, by the way, does GW update their rules, once every each year?
This post RIGHT HERE is exactly why, when people are getting started and are thinking about playing Grey Knights, we try and dissuade them from picking this army. If you have limitations on how much you can spend, picking Grey Knights right now is throwing your money away. GW produces a bunch of beautiful miniatures that aren't complete garbage on the table, there are other choices than GK.
The end result of people picking Grey Knights is always the same. Frustration because they get wrecked and feel like they wasted their money. This happened at my FLGS with a really nice guy who bought some Grey Knights to start, and guess what? He never plays. I don't understand why people come here and give bad advice, talking up Grey Knights. It has a real impact to people making actual financial decisions.
To address your proposed army:
1. If you don't have the rhinos yet don't buy them. None of the models you have can ride in a rhino; only power armored Grey Knights can ride in a rhino.
2. Don't buy 3 Paladin Ancients that's overkill.
If you want, you could post what you have, and we might be able to help you grow your army with as minimal of an investment as possible to at least be somewhat viable on the table.
This post RIGHT HERE is exactly why, when people are getting started and are thinking about playing Grey Knights, we try and dissuade them from picking this army. If you have limitations on how much you can spend, picking Grey Knights right now is throwing your money away. GW produces a bunch of beautiful miniatures that aren't complete garbage on the table, there are other choices than GK.
The end result of people picking Grey Knights is always the same. Frustration because they get wrecked and feel like they wasted their money. This happened at my FLGS with a really nice guy who bought some Grey Knights to start, and guess what? He never plays. I don't understand why people come here and give bad advice, talking up Grey Knights. It has a real impact to people making actual financial decisions.
Yea, fair enough, but if you have faith the GW is going to make the necessary tweaks and it's the army you like the most wouldn't you regret buying an army you didn't like as much when GK gets pushed back into the middle of the pack?
This post RIGHT HERE is exactly why, when people are getting started and are thinking about playing Grey Knights, we try and dissuade them from picking this army. If you have limitations on how much you can spend, picking Grey Knights right now is throwing your money away. GW produces a bunch of beautiful miniatures that aren't complete garbage on the table, there are other choices than GK.
The end result of people picking Grey Knights is always the same. Frustration because they get wrecked and feel like they wasted their money. This happened at my FLGS with a really nice guy who bought some Grey Knights to start, and guess what? He never plays. I don't understand why people come here and give bad advice, talking up Grey Knights. It has a real impact to people making actual financial decisions.
Yea, fair enough, but if you have faith the GW is going to make the necessary tweaks and it's the army you like the most wouldn't you regret buying an army you didn't like as much when GK gets pushed back into the middle of the pack?
People getting started don't always have the visibility into other armies, factions, etc. There is no harm in having a "have you considered..." kind of discussion. It's pretty easy to find a model or few models that you find aesthetically pleasing in any line of models.
And, while it's possible GW will update GK to be passable, there is no evidence to suggest their core problems - bad psychic powers, dramatically limited unit choice, low mobility - will suddenly be solved - these come with a total redesign.
Grey Knights are waiting for 9th. But that's just like, my opinion, man.
akaean wrote: I'
Im just saying don't give up. Approach the game with a positive attitude and learn your army and from your mistakes and you can get a lot better. When I started out I felt like list tailoring was the cheesiest thing someone could do and I hated it because it made me feel helpless. As I got better, learned my army and more strategies, I realized that those list tailoring players weren't that bad, and were easily beaten by my own well rounded take all comers lists. Being open to learning about the game is the best thing a new player can do.
I don't know what list tailoring means? But could you have any advice how to beat my friends armies?
:edit: am stupid how could you know their lists.
I play vs 5 people the most. Two are brothers who either play some sort of eldar list with a ton of shoting and airplanes,or they play the same eldar and ally them with other eldar. Their army is very confusing, how in works in general. There is one guy who plays bloodangels, he has a lot of different fast moving troops and scots infiltrating, he also sometimes runs 3 units of hellblasters, but not in every list. His list are generally doing a lot of melee, turn 1 charges etc Then there is our demon player, he started a few months before us, and he goes to tournaments and has a much larger collection. Am getting my ass handed to me the hardest vs him, but he has a much larger collection then any of use aside for the brothers, and has much more xp. The last guy plays tyranids, he has 2 flyings ones that shot a lot, like 60-80 small ones, and some mid sized melee ones. He sometimes also brings 2 big monsters that borrow from underground kill some dudes and borrow underground.
The rest of the store plays more or less everything. There is no orc players, and I am the only GK player. There is a lot of different space marines, or space marines with something else, 3 human guard players, and a lot of demon armies, eldar are popular too, but not as much as the space marines.
If you want, you could post what you have, and we might be able to help you grow your army with as minimal of an investment as possible to at least be somewhat viable on the table.
I have 15 terminators, 2 with psycannons and 1 with a incinerator, all armed with a mix of swords and halabards. I have Caldor Draigo, and nemezis dreadknight with hammer and psycannon. 2 rhinos and 5 grey knight strikes 3 with halabards, 1 with sword, 1 with psycannon
People getting started don't always have the visibility into other armies, factions, etc. There is no harm in having a "have you considered..." kind of discussion. It's pretty easy to find a model or few models that you find aesthetically pleasing in any line of models.
Yea, true and GK are not nearly as aesthetically contentious as Thousand Sons, because I'll stick with my TS as my primary army until I die.
I wish they put the info on the boxs or something, no sells person is going to tell you the army sucks, because he wants to get rid of the bad stuff first. Or maybe have some sort of buff for armies that are doing worse. Lets say some armies doesn't win any GT, and is the least represented, then they could give it a blank stats buff, and they could change such stuff every seson.
Plus I think it would be nice if they balanced lower point games. Everyone keeps telling me that the game is balanced at 2500pts, great am sure of it, but when I play 1500pts and I have to face Magnus and some demons am screwed .
I have 15 terminators, 2 with psycannons and 1 with a incinerator, all armed with a mix of swords and halabards. I have Caldor Draigo, and nemezis dreadknight with hammer and psycannon. 2 rhinos and 5 grey knight strikes 3 with halabards, 1 with sword, 1 with psycannon
Okay, cool. I can work with this.
Suggestions to alter what you have and maximize it would be...
1. Play your nemesis dreadknight as a Grand Master Nemesis Dreadnight. He'll get +1WS/BS and a 4++ instead of a 5++, making him hyper durable. With sanctuary he's got a 3++ and this is a tough nut to crack. You'll want to put sanctuary on him in most cases. This also gives you a second HQ to pair with Draigo for a battalion. Don't make Draigo your warlord, make it this guy, and give him first to the fray. This lets you reroll charges for any unit that starts the charge phase within 6" of him, so he can charge and then still give rerolls to the unit next to him even if he succeeds and moves outside of 6". This cat is starting on the table. Put an incinerator on him, since you're facing flyers, as without this you have 0 answer to flyers. Just play counts-as, it's one extra bit, if people get testy just tape the bit to your base. He will start on the table, and will receive your first gate of infinity. Play the hammer as a sword to save points.
2. Pack 10 terminators together into a squad. These guys will be deep striking. That's 40 storm bolter dice and a few attacks. You'll need to pick the right spot for these to land. They will be in deep strike with Draigo. When they land together you'll boost them with Psybolt Ammo to make that 40x Strength 5, AP-1 shots. Also because of Draigo you'll be rerolling 1s and 2s. With this many terminators you'd also want to boost their invulnerable save if you can. Getting them to 4++ makes them a decent wall of bodies that might not get faced off of the table in seconds. Hammerhand is a LIE. Bring utility spells. You will always want to have sanctuary, gate of infinity, astral aim, available. Putting astral aim on these guys makes those shots ignore cover which can be very, very useful.
3. Bring 5 strikes, and play your Rhinos as Razorbacks. Put an assault cannon on one, and a twin lascannon on the other. You desperately need high strength ranged anti-tank, so it's not a horrible choice given what you have. And, again, if people get upset just tape the bits to the top your rhinos. It will show them how silly they are playing this level of what-you-see-is-what-you-get at this level of play. These will all start on the table so as to allow for deep striking points.
4. Your last 5 man terminator squad will start on the ground unfortunately and guard the Rhinos. it's an overkill waste of points here but you need to put them on the table so you have enough points to match your reserves, and you'll want to babysit that twin lascannon and twin assault cannon.
5. Draigo casts two spells. I'm a fan of utility here, too, but you can always put purge soul on as one of his spells. Maybe you'll encounter blobs with lower leadership and spike, dealing 6+ mortal wounds. You need a punchers chance here and sometimes this connects. Sometimes.
Your essential gambit will be to identify where your opponent's best stuff is, drop draigo, the terminators, and gate the GMNDK right in there, shoot, and charge with rerolling dice.
By playing a battalion, you'll have 8 command points to work with. You'll be using 2 of these right away on the first turn to get +1strength and -1 AP on your storm bolter dice. You will also use 2 to boost the invuln save of something you need should that arise. Plan on using an additional one for a charge dice reroll. So you'll have 3 for the rest of the game, make them freaking count because you're going to need them, and pray you don't peril of the warp because that'll suck another dice away.
If you play this and get absolutely crushed, I wouldn't buy any more Grey Knights because your meta has already evolved beyond them being useful.
Also, don't play beta deep strike rules, they feth Grey Knights more than any other army. These are beta rules, not real rules, so you don't have to play them if you don't want to.
Good luck! If you share your battle reports we can probably help you adjust your tactics. I expect you to lose but not badly.
I don't know what list tailoring means? But could you have any advice how to beat my friends armies?
:edit: am stupid how could you know their lists.
People do this.
Either by knowing that they have a limited set of models, by checking out what models they've got with them, by not having a written army list and fudging your wargear to suit or by flat out asking for their list before making yours.
If you know an opponent's list and build yours specifically for it you can have a substantial advantage which is why it's a scummy move.
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Karol wrote: I wish they put the info on the boxs or something
It would be nice if the box said "this unit is grossly overpriced" but I think it's unlikely...
akaean wrote: I'm not trying to insult GK players. I'm just saying there is a big difference between meeting up with a few regulars at a hobby shop on a weekend and attending a major event are very different environments. Surely we can agree that a streamlined GK force can do well in casual pick up games at the local GW shop or with your buddies?
Here's the kicker, and get this: they're really not a good army in a casual setting either. That's really the biggest insult to an army that actually has a codex.
They do BETTER, but it's not exactly a hard hurdle to jump over when you make that question. I wouldn't recommend the army at all actually, and say to buy the kits strictly for bitz. The kits themselves are pretty great. I have 2 each of the Strike Squads and the Terminators (though granted I haven't actually opened the latter as I hate most of the Terminator models, but just in case...)
As far as kitbashing goes, Dark Angels have cooler looking Knights than Grey Knights. Deathwing are kickass, sand down those shields and do your own design.
This is why I also say that if people are serious about Grey Knights, look at some of the other armies. You can achieve that same aesthetic with a more robust force. Not saying Dark Angels are top tier, but they're leagues above GK.
Feel free to remodel your weapons. Tell your friends, "Hey, I want to try running my squad with Falcions today, can I proxy my Strike Squad with Falcions?" If your opponents say no they are being ridiculous. You should not limit yourself strictly to the weapons you have modeled, especially when you are experimenting and figuring out what you like. If you want to try swapping out Psycannons for Psylincers, and let people know that you are experimenting and if you like the performance you'll model your squads with the appropriate weapons. Most people aren't tools about things like this.
Another option for you to go is to try a Vanguard Detachment focused around Paladins. You'll be pretty starved for CP, so you really need to make em count, For instance as a core for the army a Vanguard Detachment with 2x 5 Paladins, a Dread Knight Warlord, Draigo and an Apothecary 3 wound terminators are really quite durable as they are no longer one shot by overcharged plasma. And you can use an Apothecary to pick up dead ones or heal wounded ones. Focus on what you can do to take advantage of your unique spells and powers. For instance using Gate to place a unit behind line of sight blocking terrain and then shooting with Astral Aim may frustrate your opponent into making a mistake. You won't win a direct confrontation with the enemy, but if you can use trickery to avoid a large scale direct conflict with the enemy army, and use that to leverage superior force concentration you may be able to squeeze out some wins!
As to your regular opponents. The Daemon Player is the best of the bunch. You said yourself that he is a tournament player who travels for them with a large collection and vast experience playing different opponents on a high level. As a new player he has a tactical toolbox far outside of yours. I would see if he is willing to act as a resource for you. Ask him to do an army swap for a game. See how he pilots your Grey Knights and makes use of the tools you have available and builds a list with it. It might give you some insight.
blaktoof wrote: GK shod be base 2 attacks not 1 attack due to veteran status.
They aren’t veterans, though. They’re Astartes with a very specific skill set. They’re also unique in that they have so many Terminator suits that they can put them on regular guys instead of just their most veteran guys. 1 Attack is entirely appropriate for the Troops units.
Far better would be to just give all Astartes the Primaris statline, but that’s a different discussion.
"Hey, I want to try running my squad with Falcions today, can I proxy my Strike Squad with Falcions?" If your opponents say no they are being ridiculous. You should not limit yourself strictly to the weapons you have modeled, especially when you are experimenting and figuring out what you like. If you want to try swapping out Psycannons for Psylincers, and let people know that you are experimenting and if you like the performance you'll model your squads with the appropriate weapons. Most people aren't tools about things like this.
I don't know how this would work, my store is rather strickt as far as upgraded stuff goes. Basic gear is something no one cares about, but if it is a weapon it have to be the right one. Plus I would be scared to cut up that many models, I never done any modeling in my entire life and I would be scared to just destroy the models. And last but not least I have no idea where I could get all those weapons from.
Ask him to do an army swap for a game. See how he pilots your Grey Knights and makes use of the tools you have available and builds a list with it. It might give you some insight.
I don't think that would work. His collection cost more then my stuff, and his army is suppose to be good, no idea if it is true or not though. He is hard to get games in, he only plays games that give points for store events, or when he is preparing for some tournament, and he kind of a let me feel that my army is aint worth the time. I played against a marine player, and he had the table reserved after us, we still had like 5 min time to play, and he just put my stuff in my bag saying my army was losing anyway.
I play against the eldar the most and against the tyranids, I go with those guys to the same class.
If its a tournament, than WYSIWYG, but if it's a friendly game it doesn't matter what your shop says, seriously, you should just be allowed to test different load outs with friends, what sort of shop would care or is even that involved in customers games to care if you did this?
"Hey, I want to try running my squad with Falcions today, can I proxy my Strike Squad with Falcions?" If your opponents say no they are being ridiculous. You should not limit yourself strictly to the weapons you have modeled, especially when you are experimenting and figuring out what you like. If you want to try swapping out Psycannons for Psylincers, and let people know that you are experimenting and if you like the performance you'll model your squads with the appropriate weapons. Most people aren't tools about things like this.
I don't know how this would work, my store is rather strickt as far as upgraded stuff goes. Basic gear is something no one cares about, but if it is a weapon it have to be the right one. Plus I would be scared to cut up that many models, I never done any modeling in my entire life and I would be scared to just destroy the models. And last but not least I have no idea where I could get all those weapons from.
Ask him to do an army swap for a game. See how he pilots your Grey Knights and makes use of the tools you have available and builds a list with it. It might give you some insight.
I don't think that would work. His collection cost more then my stuff, and his army is suppose to be good, no idea if it is true or not though. He is hard to get games in, he only plays games that give points for store events, or when he is preparing for some tournament, and he kind of a let me feel that my army is aint worth the time. I played against a marine player, and he had the table reserved after us, we still had like 5 min time to play, and he just put my stuff in my bag saying my army was losing anyway.
I play against the eldar the most and against the tyranids, I go with those guys to the same class.
Ok for starters, your opponents sound like real... jerks. To be flat about it. Secondly, he what, he started clearing your models off the table into your bag? That's a major no-no.
If its a tournament, than WYSIWYG, but if it's a friendly game it doesn't matter what your shop says, seriously, you should just be allowed to test different load outs with friends, what sort of shop would care or is even that involved in customers games to care if you did this?
It is kind of a important to me what the store rules are, maybe in other places can play different, but here if I say that a halabard is a thunder hammer no one is going to play against me. Same if I tried to say my terminators are power armored grey knights.
Ok for starters, your opponents sound like real... jerks. To be flat about it. Secondly, he what, he started clearing your models off the table into your bag? That's a major no-no.
He is bigger then me. am not going to fight him over models. Plus he didn't put all away, just grabed some and put them in to the bag asking if I do it or if he has to do it. And as I would rather not have my models damaged more then they already are, I decided to pack them up. I was losing anyway, so it is not like he was wrong.
Whether you were losing or not, him messing with your stuff is not ok. Do the store owners condone behavior like this? Because if so, you should try to find a different place to play. Unless the store has you reserve time at the tables or something, and you had gone over your allotted time, there's no excuse for that; even if it was his table at that point, packing up your models is totally ridiculous, and you shouldn't stand for it whether he's bigger than you/better at the game than you/whatever.
If someone gets to manhandle someone elses property at your store, including damaging it by tossing it in a bag, just because they are bigger than them, then it's time to find somewhere else to play.
If he's not actually doing anything physically intimidating to you but isn't treating your stuff with respect, immediately tell him to stop. I think it's pretty unlikely he'll get violent, and if he does, there's laws against that for a reason. No shop owner is going to stand for that.
Yea dude. It sounds like you are in a pretty toxic environment. You absolutely should not think all places and communities are like that. Depending on where you live, there are often several communities bouncing about and a lot of awesome players who would actually let you experiment and find your feet with the codex instead of binding you to strict WYSIWYG while you learn.
Don't worry about remodeling minis. If you saved the boxes you probably have the weapon bits anyway still on sprue. Remodeling isn't hard. I've taken the old trusty exacto knife and swapped arms and weapons. Do it all the time. Usually every new codex or edition somebodies arms gotta come off and new weapons strapped on. Even mundane things like cutting Bolters in half and hull mounting them on a rhino for a ww2 style hull mounted storm bolter turret.
You'll get a feel for it, guarenteed. But you shouldn't remodel until you are sure you know what you want... and that means actually being able to test different load outs... check out some of the find a game resources on Dakka. See if you can't hook into another group for games. I think you'll find that most other players aren't tools, and that it wasn't your codex that wasn't fun...
blaktoof wrote: GK shod be base 2 attacks not 1 attack due to veteran status.
They aren’t veterans, though. They’re Astartes with a very specific skill set. They’re also unique in that they have so many Terminator suits that they can put them on regular guys instead of just their most veteran guys. 1 Attack is entirely appropriate for the Troops units.
Far better would be to just give all Astartes the Primaris statline, but that’s a different discussion.
No they're veterans.
Only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armor, newbies have to wear terminator. So by the fluff itself you are wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Karol I hope you get out of that environment, it just doesn't sound like its anything a hobby should be, which is something you should look forward too. Talk to the store owner.
If its a tournament, than WYSIWYG, but if it's a friendly game it doesn't matter what your shop says, seriously, you should just be allowed to test different load outs with friends, what sort of shop would care or is even that involved in customers games to care if you did this?
It is kind of a important to me what the store rules are, maybe in other places can play different, but here if I say that a halabard is a thunder hammer no one is going to play against me. Same if I tried to say my terminators are power armored grey knights.
Ok for starters, your opponents sound like real... jerks. To be flat about it. Secondly, he what, he started clearing your models off the table into your bag? That's a major no-no.
He is bigger then me. am not going to fight him over models. Plus he didn't put all away, just grabed some and put them in to the bag asking if I do it or if he has to do it. And as I would rather not have my models damaged more then they already are, I decided to pack them up. I was losing anyway, so it is not like he was wrong.
Have you talked to the shop owner about this? I've seen people get banned from at least playing in stores because they were caught deliberately cheating on multiple occasions. Disrespecting another player's models though is generally seen as a much higher sin than that. If you go to the owner and tell them that you stil had time left, he started messing with your stuff to push you along, and it made you uncomfortable to be in the store. Chances are the potential loss of income will motivate the owner to take action.
Also if you start asking other players there if this guy has tried something like that to them, you'll find that the local community will have a poor view on such behavior. Even if the store owner dealing with things doesn't do much, you might find the other players to be more vigilant about such behavior.
Only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armor, newbies have to wear terminator. So by the fluff itself you are wrong.
Do you have a source for that? Something stating that only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armour? I know they don’t follow the normal Carapace -> Power -> Terminator Armour and go straight from training to Terminator, but all that says is that there are some newbies amongst the Terminators’ ranks, not that the Power Armoured guys are veterans.
Bharring wrote: It will be interesting to see how GK stack up to mono-IK or mono-Harlies.
GK can't do almost anything versus IK. We don't have antitank but razor dreddy and raven. but we can't reroll to wound so in a match IK will destroy our antitank before they can deal real damage.
Gk have either ok or amazing chances of winning depending on terrain because of an upper hand in scoring. You could focus down 1-2 knights with shooting, magic and most importantly mellee but than you'll need to hide and hug points. Gk characters like draigo and voldus can expect to deal 6-9 wounds in mellee before hammerhand and fight twice trategems. Shooting can be handy here. Psylancer devastators deal around 5 wounds to an ik using a strategem.
But damage is not as important here as scoring. Ik can't get to 2-d floors of buildings. Means you can be safe there. And if the second floor is blocked from los, completely safe. So, basically all you need to win is focus down 1-2 ik and score. Which is not that hard since you have deepstrike and gate of infinity.
If he's not actually doing anything physically intimidating to you but isn't treating your stuff with respect, immediately tell him to stop. I think it's pretty unlikely he'll get violent, and if he does, there's laws against that for a reason. No shop owner is going to stand for that.
It doesn't really help me much if he beats me up later outside of the store. I learned my lesson to not make football hooligans angry. Plus his mother is a teacher at my school, I would be @#$% if she started teaching me.
Have you talked to the shop owner about this? I've seen people get banned from at least playing in stores because they were caught deliberately cheating on multiple occasions. Disrespecting another player's models though is generally seen as a much higher sin than that. If you go to the owner and tell them that you stil had time left, he started messing with your stuff to push you along, and it made you uncomfortable to be in the store. Chances are the potential loss of income will motivate the owner to take action.
Not really, but I know his dad and the store owner know each other real good. All I would achive is getting a store ban, and this is the only place to play in my town. By the way I don't really feel bad about the stuff he did. I got used to stuff like that. It is not like I didn't chased of some 10 year olds playing mtg from a table to playmyself.
Don't worry about remodeling minis. If you saved the boxes you probably have the weapon bits anyway still on sprue. Remodeling isn't hard. I've taken the old trusty exacto knife and swapped arms and weapons. Do it all the time. Usually every new codex or edition somebodies arms gotta come off and new weapons strapped on. Even mundane things like cutting Bolters in half and hull mounting them on a rhino for a ww2 style hull mounted storm bolter turret.
I have no real expiriance with modeling, but wouldn't trying to cut metal models with a knife be very dangerous? One slip and the model is destroyed or you don't have a finger. Plus the models I got didn't have any spare parts.
School ends today, so summer time game bonanza starts, I will try to play with Akaean said to run them.
Only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armor, newbies have to wear terminator. So by the fluff itself you are wrong.
Do you have a source for that? Something stating that only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armour? I know they don’t follow the normal Carapace -> Power -> Terminator Armour and go straight from training to Terminator, but all that says is that there are some newbies amongst the Terminators’ ranks, not that the Power Armoured guys are veterans.
Was in the Alaric omnibus give me some time to get you a specific page.
Only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armor, newbies have to wear terminator. So by the fluff itself you are wrong.
Do you have a source for that? Something stating that only veterans are allowed to wear Power Armour? I know they don’t follow the normal Carapace -> Power -> Terminator Armour and go straight from training to Terminator, but all that says is that there are some newbies amongst the Terminators’ ranks, not that the Power Armoured guys are veterans.
According to the fluff I've read, and mostly from the novel The Emperor's Gift / Aaron Dembski-Bowden (one of the best GK novels I've ever read btw) GK are trained for 50 years after the implantation of their geneseed before they're given their armor. When they're promoted to "battle brother" they are given a suit of Power Armor and a suit of Terminator Armor. Their commander/captain/sergeant determines what role they're squad will be fielded as, as the situation demands (ex: Strike Squad, Terminator, Interceptor, etc.).
A hobby saw will do the trick, too. You'll have an uglier edge maybe, but i've found that exacto doesn't work unless you super glued lightly. If you used plastic glue you'll break the blade. my 2c.
And in honesty there are cultural differences here. The best solution for him is to start winning games. Try what i said, with a battalion, if you can. A GMNDK is not different, model wise, from a NDK.
Marmatag wrote: A hobby saw will do the trick, too. You'll have an uglier edge maybe, but i've found that exacto doesn't work unless you super glued lightly. If you used plastic glue you'll break the blade. my 2c.
And in honesty there are cultural differences here. The best solution for him is to start winning games. Try what i said, with a battalion, if you can. A GMNDK is not different, model wise, from a NDK.
Where do people get weapons to switch stuff on their models, I checked the ones I have today, and they seem to be solid chunks of metal, with the exeption of the dreadknight?
Played my first game today with the termintors run as 10 in one squad, 5 paladins, strikes in a rhino and the dreadknight as my leader. My opponent played space marines, he had the ultramarine primarch, 2 flyers of some sort, a screen of scouts, and 3 rhinos with assault cannons. I got first turn, moved all my stuff up and tried to deep strike, only to be told I can't do it turn one. Thought my opponent was bullshiting me, but the store owner told me that is the rule right now. My opponent was ok with me taking back some movment, So I tried to get cover for most of my stuff.
On his turn he his stuff to the side, killed my dreadknight the rhino, and drop the strikes to 3 models, my paladins were in the backfield protecting my objectives and somehow untouched. On my turn 2 I droped the termintors near the scouts, used the damage buffing stratagems, and killed a unit of scouts. My paladins shuffled to be closer to the objective they were holding, and my 3 strikes shot at the scouts killing 1. On his turn he shot everything on the ground with his razorbacks, and then charged the termintors with his two left over scout units and his primarch, he droped the unit to 3 models, and I droped his scout to two units of 2 scouts each. His fliers started shoting at my paladins. Third turn was my termintors being dead, and then it was 3 turns of his fliers shoting my paladins. We stoped the game on turn 6, because the store was closing. I think I lost, because had most of his army aside for 2 units of scouts and I had 1paladin with 1 wound left.
Don't know what I could have done better. Tomorrow I am going to play vs imperial guard, and chaos. I will look how this goes.
As i said before in my post - by the way, if you're not reading my posts i can dip out - is that this is a beta rule, and it is not a formal rule. You do not have to play the beta rule if you do not want to, just be up front about it before the game. If you're playing ITC rules then it's too bad so sad, they use it.
Judging by what you're facing, you stand effectively 0 chance in this scenario.
As I said before, and numerous others have said, you are waiting for 9th or a major update before GK can compete even casually.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Really, Bobby G, AC Razorbacks and Flyers in a low-points escalation league?
I mean, that list has been nerfed a ton, but that doesn't sound very "friendly"...
Can you make an argument for Ultramarines without RG? At that point they'd be better played as any other chapter. UM have the worst tactics i've ever seen.
Martel732 wrote: It's made of marine units. It doesn't get much more friendly. Except GK units....
This made me laugh more than it should have, then it made me sad...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Really, Bobby G, AC Razorbacks and Flyers in a low-points escalation league?
I mean, that list has been nerfed a ton, but that doesn't sound very "friendly"...
"Can you make an argument for Ultramarines without RG? At that point they'd be better played as any other chapter. UM have the worst tactics i've ever seen."
Nope. If there's no G-man then you play Raven Guard
Karol wrote:
Played my first game today with the termintors run as 10 in one squad, 5 paladins, strikes in a rhino and the dreadknight as my leader. My opponent played space marines, he had the ultramarine primarch, 2 flyers of some sort, a screen of scouts, and 3 rhinos with assault cannons. I got first turn, moved all my stuff up and tried to deep strike, only to be told I can't do it turn one. Thought my opponent was bullshiting me, but the store owner told me that is the rule right now.
There’s a Beta rule currently in effect that you can’t Deep Strike outside of your Deployment Zone Turn 1. They’re currently getting the community to try this rule out, nobody knows whether it will become permanent or if it will change. GW are asking for feedback on it though - if you feel it is giving GK trouble, go ahead and email GW.
I have to say, your issues aren’t entirely your fault. It looks like the store you’re playing in is very competitive. The Ultramarines list you played against is what we’d call a netlist - that is, they looked up the most overpowered stuff on the internet and only took that, or otherwise copied the list from the top players at a big tournament. That particular list - Guilliman, Stormravens/Fire Raptors, Razorbacks and Scouts - is a little ‘out of date’ now in a competitive sense since GW has nerfed all of those units to bring the power of that particular list down. It’s still probably one of - if not the - strongest lists Space Marines can make, and bringing it to a friendly game is unkind. If you can, try to make it clear to your opponents ahead of time that you’re not going to be bringing a tournament-winning army and hopefully they’ll tone down their list from that level of harsh.
Martel732 wrote:It's made of marine units. It doesn't get much more friendly. Except GK units....
See now this sort of tripe does nothing but undermine those of us raising genuine concerns with the SM Codex. You’re not helping here, you’re making it harder. If you can’t be constructive then don’t contribute.
Martel732 wrote:It's made of marine units. It doesn't get much more friendly. Except GK units....
See now this sort of tripe does nothing but undermine those of us raising genuine concerns with the SM Codex. You’re not helping here, you’re making it harder. If you can’t be constructive then don’t contribute.
I guess you're starting to see why SM players on here have a bit of rep amongst us who have been here for years.
I guess you're starting to see why SM players on here have a bit of rep amongst us who have been here for years.
We’ve argued about this before and my stance hasn’t changed; I don’t believe they have that reputation and you’re the only one I’ve seen saying they do.
I am starting to believe that reading posts from one or two toxic people has poisoned you though, so that’s all you can see. I suppose I’m gaining some sympathy for your position, but I maintain that the reputation SM players have to you isn’t shared by the broader community on this site.
I guess you're starting to see why SM players on here have a bit of rep amongst us who have been here for years.
We’ve argued about this before and my stance hasn’t changed; I don’t believe they have that reputation and you’re the only one I’ve seen saying they do.
Literally in that same thread you said that to me, there was multiple people saying the same thing, who I can and will quote if i need to = it's not just me. I was simply the one who argued the point with them.
I am starting to believe that reading posts from one or two toxic people has poisoned you though, so that’s all you can see.
It's not, there's obviously a few vocal people that you're referring to, but Martel and Xenomancer's opinions in SM are pretty commonly supported and agreed with on here by many SM players. For what it's worth I don't think either of them are "toxic" either, they just have... narrow minded perspectives sometimes.
kombatwombat wrote: I suppose I’m gaining some sympathy for your position, but I maintain that the reputation SM players have to you isn’t shared by the broader community on this site.
Well, I'll check in with you again at a later date then. I never said it was a reputation isn't one they have amongst the broader community - nobody can claim that for anything, as most people don't even pay attention to that. It's simply one they have amongst people who do. We'll see if you feel the same way if you're still on here when SM gets their next Gladius, and the majority of the players are trying to convince you how it's not really that strong, you aren't playing against it properly, etc.
Marmatag wrote: As i said before in my post - by the way, if you're not reading my posts i can dip out - is that this is a beta rule, and it is not a formal rule. You do not have to play the beta rule if you do not want to, just be up front about it before the game. If you're playing ITC rules then it's too bad so sad, they use it
Yeah technically you don't "have" to use it. Too bad you are likely running short of opponents that way. Could end up playing solitaire with 40k. If everybody at the store is using it but you which one is going to have it harder to force other? They? They simply play against another player. You? You don't have another opponent to play with so it's not like "don't use that rule or I won't play vs you" as you are the one out of game then. They won't.
Actually won a game today 0_0 Played vs a space marine with a full primaris army. 2 gravis captins, 4x5 bolter dudes, 9 flying dudes and 3 predators. Walked stright at him, lost the ndk and termintors, paladins were saved by the sacrifice of my rhino and the strikes raced for his objective. 13-7 with him being wiped out at the end of turn 6, and me having 3 paladins left alive.
I was thinking about spliting the 10 termintors in too two separate units, so people have to split fire and not just put everything in to my 10 dudes.
Also I think, I know what you guys mean by +5inv not being that great.
Karol wrote: Actually won a game today 0_0 Played vs a space marine with a full primaris army. 2 gravis captins, 4x5 bolter dudes, 9 flying dudes and 3 predators. Walked stright at him, lost the ndk and termintors, paladins were saved by the sacrifice of my rhino and the strikes raced for his objective. 13-7 with him being wiped out at the end of turn 6, and me having 3 paladins left alive.
I was thinking about spliting the 10 termintors in too two separate units, so people have to split fire and not just put everything in to my 10 dudes.
Also I think, I know what you guys mean by +5inv not being that great.
Unless you have some strategem etc that buffs big squad small units are generally always better. Tougher, more flexible. Only real drawback short of strategems is when you charge with both he can intercept before 2nd gets to attack.
Karol wrote: Actually won a game today 0_0 Played vs a space marine with a full primaris army. 2 gravis captins, 4x5 bolter dudes, 9 flying dudes and 3 predators. Walked stright at him, lost the ndk and termintors, paladins were saved by the sacrifice of my rhino and the strikes raced for his objective. 13-7 with him being wiped out at the end of turn 6, and me having 3 paladins left alive.
I was thinking about spliting the 10 termintors in too two separate units, so people have to split fire and not just put everything in to my 10 dudes. Also I think, I know what you guys mean by +5inv not being that great.
Congrats man! Sounds like you are starting to get a feel for some of the units you have at your command, and are leveraging their strengths a bit more.
As for the 10 man vs 5 man argument, its as follows. In terms of firepower, 10 man is universally better than 5 man. They are a more efficient vector for buffs, either via psychic powers or stratagems, and because you are free to split fire you don't lose out on the ability to target multiple enemies. If you split the squad up you will notice a big decrease in the effectiveness of your unit enhancing buffs. The advantages of splitting them up are 1) it forces your enemy to split fire and 2) it takes up more slots. For example, sometimes having additional slots in your army list is crucially important for qualifying for a Battalion. If you need to run 5 Strikes + 5 Termies +5 Termies to get a battalion on the field, so be it.
With respect to deep striking on turn one, you can still deep strike into your own deployment zone. So if you are playing against a really aggressive assault army that is in your face right from the word go, you can still drop in and cleanse your deployment zone.
The other thing you can do is look back at the games and figure out what units have been performing for you. From what you've observed it sounds like you are having the most luck with your Paladins than anything else- as they are always the ones fighting to the bitter end. If you think you can function with fewer Command Points maybe try running a Vanguard Detachment with multiple Paladin Squads.
Most people get 'bits' and alternate weapons from the plastic sprues that they bought their army from. Your Grey Knights are really old. For reference, seven years ago (really doesn't feel like it was *that* long ago ) Games Workshop did a big Grey Knights + Inquisition release where they redid most of the Grey Knight line in plastic and released several new kits, including the Dread Knight. These kits were plastic and all had a ton of options for building your squads however you wanted. Because Grey Knights were really unpopular prior to the big 5th edition release, most players who own Grey Knights started with these plastic boxes. Metal Grey Knights are really rare! In that vein, I know people have been telling you not to buy more stuff, BUT, I would probably get a Strike Squad box if I were you. It would give you another 5 man Strike squad to fill out your troops selection cheap (for GK!), and its absolutely loaded with force weapons would let you adjust your melee load outs a lot easier. What I mean by this is your Strike Squads really really want Nemesis Falcions because they only have one attack base, which means getting an extra attack from the Falcions is a huge increase in performance for them. On the other hand, Paladins have 3 attacks base, and as such benefit more from Halbreds and Hammers than they would from Falcions.
Buying a strike squad box would let you run a battalion with Terminators + 2x5 Strikes which might help loosen up your points enough to let you field more paladins.
If you bring a 10 man squad people will focus it. But knowing that kind of works in your favor. Don't forget that you have Sanctuary and the +1 invuln stratagem. Drop them in the gak and buff them up. Terminators aren't great but in a small game, they do require a response. Also you can combat squad them for 1CP during the game if you want to.
For terminators you should always bring 10 mans. Basically the only reason to take them is to buff them. Too bad we can't actually buff them to a useful level.
Xenomancers wrote: For terminators you should always bring 10 mans. Basically the only reason to take them is to buff them. Too bad we can't actually buff them to a useful level.
In casual games, you can make them 3++ every turn. On a small board, 4x4, this is actually not awful. The problem though is that Custodes do it better & cheaper - just bring Custodes and put a stormshield on 2 guys, and you've got the same net effect but higher quality and with better stratagems, and access to bikes.
thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.
Karol wrote: thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.
After lurking on here for years, I had to make an account just to respond to this.
What? Are you serious? That is the dumbest house rule I have ever heard. Your victory is that much more impressive if you've been having to play without psychic powers, and helps to explain some of your struggles.
Karol wrote: thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.
More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.
Karol wrote: thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.
More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.
So if a game is poorly designed and some people create strong lists...that the player's fault? I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you.
Karol wrote: thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.
More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.
Players might be the ones to take unbalanced armies but it's GW's job to ensure there aren't any. Literally their job.
Karol wrote: thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.
More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.
No psychic stuff if the other player doesn't have psychic stuff is... That's going beyond a house/store rule, that's not playing 40k. I have a feeling that nobody at that store brings out their Eldar or TSons for just that reason alone.
Not allowed to use a major part of certain factions, like Eldar, GKs, TSons and Death Guard vs strong codexes like Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar (correct me if im wrong) is just downright absurd, and furthers the gap between them, and GKs.
Sounds like the store owner's friend or son or themself had a bad match against some Eldar and doesn't want them around...
But more on topic, without outside intervention, Grey Knights are in an unfortunate spot. Razorback AssCans, Flyers and GMDK's are your best bet for ramping up the strength of your army. And a big factor is knowing your own army through experience, and playing against a variety of armies to know what you can expect.
Karol wrote: thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.
More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.
So if a game is poorly designed and some people create strong lists...that the player's fault? I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you.
In my experience there are a significant number of people playing a game with citadel models that they call 40k, but isn't quite 40k. It's hard to really gauge the real volume of competitive variety a game has to offer when everyone is playing the game by their own rules. Some of this is definitely GW's fault for not taking the reigns a little tighter, but of all the game systems I play, 40k is the only one in which I'm not floored in shock to hear that a community plays without an entire phase of the game.
If your GK can’t use psychic powers, then your opponents shouldn’t be using Chapter Tactics, Sept bonuses, or any other similar abilities. GKs are Psykers, you pay for it, and not being able to use it is criminally unjust.
Karol wrote: thanks guys for all the advice. I will wait with buying any extra stuff for now. As psychic powers goes, I can't wait to use them. For now the store rule is no psychic powers, unless the opposing army has psychic powers too. As non of my opponent has any psykers, I haven't yet tested them, but they seem really nice. the +1inv would be really interesting on a unit of paladins or the knight.
More and more I realize that 40k's biggest balance issue may be the players themselves.
Not my rule and not my idea to enforce it. I have no idea if there are any balance issues with psychic powers, assuming there are, also the limit is just to psychic powers, magic spells or rune casting is allowed.
Speaking about eldar. I played against them today. Lost hard, he had 3 flyers, some were at -2 to hit, his ground units were sniper scout guardians, and a wright lord. I tried doing the teleport trick in turn two, but he killed my ground stuff before we got to turn 2. My main problem was that everything he had had so many wounds, the tanks had like 8-10 each, the flyers too, and everything was harder to hit with shoting and too fast to reach in melee. I lost without scoring any points, but I must say I focused a bit too much on trying to kill any of his units. In the end most of his tanks were left alive with 3-4 wounds at worse, the flyers were untouched and I had 0 models at the end of turn 4.
Since that is a store rule you should ask for a point handicap. As others have said you are denied your chapter tactic bonus and almost everyone agrees that you are paying points for models that have psychic abilities that the store is preventing you from using. I would say that it wouldn't be unfair for you to ask your opponent to play down 10-15% of your agreed upon level or ask that they allow you to use your psykers as they are supposed to be used. If your opponent is OK with you using the abilities then the store really shouldn't say anything.
Speaking about eldar. I played against them today. Lost hard, he had 3 flyers, some were at -2 to hit, his ground units were sniper scout guardians, and a wright lord. I tried doing the teleport trick in turn two, but he killed my ground stuff before we got to turn 2. My main problem was that everything he had had so many wounds, the tanks had like 8-10 each, the flyers too, and everything was harder to hit with shoting and too fast to reach in melee. I lost without scoring any points, but I must say I focused a bit too much on trying to kill any of his units. In the end most of his tanks were left alive with 3-4 wounds at worse, the flyers were untouched and I had 0 models at the end of turn 4.
It seems like so far, you've run against Space Marines, who are mid tier (lets not get on to the specifics) for the average list. And now that you've faced off an Alaitoc Eldar list, you've ran in to a higher tier army and list. Everything is hard to hit, everything is fast and shooty, and Eldar tanks are rather points efficient. It's a very rough army for Grey Knights to go against in all honesty.
Did you play using Psychic powers this game? Most, if not all Eldar armies possess Psykers for buffs and debuffs. A problem with Grey Knights is that they're not the best of psykers, and may just get overpowered by DtW from Eldar or other Psyker heavy armies. If you did use psychic powers this game (such a stupid "rule") did you feel like they may have helped more in your other games?
The OP also said this was the only store that he can get to. So he has to play be the store's rules. That's why I suggested he just ask his opponent to use psychic rules.
Marmatag wrote: Time to find a new store. That is fething absurd. One of the dumbest rules i've ever seen. Holy gak.
...They're playing a tutorial escalation league set up to introduce new mechanics slowly rather than dumping everything in from day one.
This is a terrible approach to teaching people the game, and puts this specific player at a colossal disadvantage. Is this how you'd teach someone the game? "Hey let's play, you can't use your stuff, oh and P.S., i'm going to slaughter you repeatedly and throw your gak in a bag"
Look at his posts, he's getting crushed by solid stuff. Flying Alaitoc, Roboute & retinue (ravens or fire raptors, either case he's got no answer), Magnus and Daemons, come on. A tutorial league wouldn't feature ANY of those things.
This is a toxic sounding environment (people throwing his minis in his bag, lolwut?) where he's being handicapped and summarily crushed.
I feel for this guy if this is his only place to play. Chess.com is free, by the way.
Karol wrote: also the limit is just to psychic powers, magic spells or rune casting is allowed.
I don't even...
So certain armies get their powers because reasons but the rest don't?
That is just passive aggressive cheating right there.
Yes, and don't ask me why. I think that it maybe because psychic powers are too powerful. I actually never bothered to ask, was just told I can't use them, and that was it.
This is a terrible approach to teaching people the game, and puts this specific player at a colossal disadvantage.
No one here is teaching other people to play, the main rule is that you have to get an army and then you can play like anyone else. Most people take the armies they see online, which they can afford of course, and which have no Forger World units in them. Plus most of the time it felt that stats and shoting mattered more then psychic powers, but I do know this a noobs point of view. For example when I played vs the demon player it never felt as if I was losing to him, because of psychic powers, but because he had so many re-rolls, and shots going through saves, and stats that were mind blowing high. Magnus killed my dreadknight and 10 termintors alone. It did take him 2 rounds, but he took 1 wound from them, and I think that one magnus costs fewer points then 10 termintors and a dreadknight.
Yeah mate I would t get disheartened that your army is unplayably bad (it’s a bit behind the competitive power curve but it still work for a casual game) or that you yourself are a bad player. You’re in an environment where I would honestly begin to question if people are intentionally trying to bully you.
No psychic powers it patently unfair. It’s like telling a Tau players ‘we don’t use the shooting phase in this league.’ But to go to the extent of you can’t use psychic powers but you can use rune powers sounds like targeted exclusion.
Just request that if you’re denied a key phase for your army, they have to skip something equally key.
So no Shooting Phase for Tau. No Movement Phase for Eldar. No Fight Phase for Daemons.
When you opponent complains this is unfair, tell them you know, as that’s what they’ve been doing to you every game thus far! Then say “shall we just use all the Phases and play the game?”
The attempted distinction between Eldar psychic powers and others is hilarious. Just straight-up cheating.
Yea. Remember your models cost more points partly because EVERY single one of them is a psycher. Not only that Eldar and Daemons have generally stronger psychic phases even still.
Not letting you use your powers is blatant favoritism and simply insane. I'm especially surprised a tournament player supports these patently insane house rules because I guarantee no event he has ever gone to bans "psychic" but allows "Magic". Newsflash, magic = psychic in 40k. Nobody casts real magic like Dwellers Below anymore!
As for the match against daemons... your army all has a smite that deals 3 mortal wounds to daemons. Every single unit. And it casts on a 5. Surely you can see how that would have helped!
It's just blatant favoritism and handicapping your army
As horrible as it might sound, I'd either get out of the hobby altogether if you have no-one else to play with and/or nowhere else to go, or start seeking out alternative ways to scratch your miniature wargaming itch.
The reason I suggest this is because you are clearly in a toxic environment, and regardless of how much value you place on your models and games, it's not worth the potentially life-altering experience it can and will have on you, especially as it seems like you are still young.
Being in that type of situation is unhealthy for your development and your emotional well being, and honestly not worth the trouble. Wargaming is great, but when you're in a clearly toxic situation with people who are taking you for granted and performing acts that can and will have a damaging effect on you as a person, I'm of the opinion that it really isn't worth it...especially if there's a potential for physical bullying and teacher bias to get involved.
I'm really damned sorry to hear about your situation; while selfish and hostile individuals exist in a lot of places, that they've taken over one of your primary avenues of social interaction and entertainment is absolutely horrible, especially as they seem to be passively intimidating you. Don't give them the satisfaction, try to find an alternative that you enjoy is the best advice I can give here, and I really wish I didn't have to say that. Good luck with whatever you decide!
Ok, I think I am going to quit then. I played 4 more games today and the more I play the more I think the army does not work at all. The first few games were ok. Today I played again vs demons, marines and eldar again. Got tabled each time.
Also who the F thought it is a good idea for demons to return units when playing vs GK? I was losing, but made myself a personal objectives to take a holy relic on the table. Lost almost all of my army trying to do it, or what was left of it. I kill the last of 20 plague bearers, and lo and behold he just brings them back in and smilles at me telling me he has enough command points to do it three more times.
I won't sell the army, don't know if anyone would want to buy it here anyway, and hope for either a new edition or a GK codex.
Question- Did they let you use your psker powers? If not then it's not only that GK are weak more of it is due to you not being able to use your army the way you are supposed to use it.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Question- Did they let you use your psker powers? If not then it's not only that GK are weak more of it is due to you not being able to use your army the way you are supposed to use it.
I said I was going to use them. In the end vs eldar I was stoped or out of range all the time. VS demons I slamed smites in to that unit of plague bearers and a unclean one sitting on the objective, only my opponent returned the demons.
The first marine list was a soup, it had custodes bike captins, some dark angels and a buttload of IG. Game was really brutal, but I think a lot of my loses came from not knowing what the custodes do, with their movments durning my turn etc. Also hellblasters hurt terminators.
The second space marine game was very interesting, he had a lot of bikes and razorbacks, he also some IG dudes in IG type razorbacks. Very fast moving army, He redeployed ultra fast after my termintors droping down, he was also very good and setting up the objectives and lured me with his army. So in the end I had my whole army on one objective when he took the other 3, while taking pot shots at me.
Aside from the Daemons did you feel like you had a chance while using all of your army's abilities? If you did then just keep at it. GK are always going to have an uphill battle until they're redone.
Also when using psyker powers don't forget that GK get a +1 to all the rolls so it's not easy for other people to deny our powers. If you want to extend the range of the smites turn 1 of your terminators into a brother captain. He doubles the range of our smites (which also means it's harder for your opponent to be within 24" of the caster).
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Aside from the Daemons did you feel like you had a chance while using all of your army's abilities? If you did then just keep at it. GK are always going to have an uphill battle until they're redone.
Also when using psyker powers don't forget that GK get a +1 to all the rolls so it's not easy for other people to deny our powers. If you want to extend the range of the smites turn 1 of your terminators into a brother captain. He doubles the range of our smites (which also means it's harder for your opponent to be within 24" of the caster).
Vs eldar I didn't cast any spells, and he shot most of my army off the table end of turn 2. Then it was just my deep strike stuff, that landed killed one unit and then got dog piled with shoting and spells.
Vs the soup marine, first game I didn't know what custodes do, so the game ended very fast. I moved he countered charged, then charged again in his turn, while everything else he had kept shoting, while taking objectives.
Vs the fast moving marine, he baited me on to one objective with his whole army, and then he zoomed to the other side of the table. And I couldn't reach him with my terminators, because they kept being shot at by 3 units of hellblaster armed primaris.
Vs demons I didn't get to cast any powers, but he was more or less playing his own game. End of turn 2 he was 17 objective points ahead of me, so I knew I would lose. He told me we play one more turn, so I decided to take one objective and he just respawned his dudes on it and told me he can do it as many times as he has command points, and he had like 5-6 left over.
I think I did the most vs the fast moving marine army, because I took an objective in that game and actually got to shot and cast spells.
I mean even with psychic powers he's not winning those games. Another person picks Grey Knights and ends up quitting. Par for the course, seen it a bunch of times now.
Marmatag wrote: I mean even with psychic powers he's not winning those games. Another person picks Grey Knights and ends up quitting. Par for the course, seen it a bunch of times now.
am I wrong, is was the reason for him quitting more to do with because he's in a toxic environment with people physically intimidating him, damaging his models, and not letting him play by the rules?
Not really, no one damged my models. And store rules are store rules, am not going to argue with them Plus I was able to play games with psychic abilities, they just don't count for the event points, which in hindsight I should focus more on. If I don't get at least 30 per month, I won't get the entry prize, and now after people played against my army no one wants to play a league game against me.
I feel bad about the army, becaus I thought that not being the best ment something else. It also seems like GW is making other knight or knight looking armies that look the same, but have better rules, and the models themselfs are metal and not plastic and are really hard to do something with. My friend who sold me the GK, showed me how his space marine models look like, and they are all plastic and come with a bucket load of weapons for free. While a resin thunderhammer costs almost 2$ and you have to buy at least 5.
The problem is the army, you are not so lucky, since you bought the worst army of the edition, but the problem is also your local store.
I can understand that you don't want to argue with them, but this isn't the way to play. Every rules, in particular in matched play, must to be used, and this kind of limits are fool.
Moreover your particular army is less than average even for GK. Using 10 termy is a waste of points.
According to this, probably you can try to play with more fair people, but my advice is keep on play to better understand rules and other people's army (in order to avoid errors like against custodes) and waiting for CA. After CA we should have a more balanced, and maybe competitive army.
I find stories like this almost universally turn out to be ridiculously exaggerated or just plain fabricated, but on the off chance what you said is true, just quit. If every single player you can possibly find truly wants to ruin the game for you, then either find your voice and say you play by the rules, or simply find something else to do. First you claimed you were upset he damaged your models and were too scared to say something because he's "bigger than you", but now you're saying that never happened? I get the feeling someone is just enjoying a bit of a pity party, and if not, well you've gotten all the advice you should need on where to go from here
No I was scared he could damge them, if I don't do it myself fast. That is not the same, He just took 2 of my models and dumped them in to my bag. And yeah I am not going to argue with a guy that is double my weight and 10 years old, he would reap me a new one, if I tried anything.
As playing by the rules, I thought I was. I was told here the first time, that I could always use psychic powers and not just have to ask if it is ok. After that in all non summer event games, I did try to cast stuff. It is hard to follow all the rules, when you start, half the stuff I learn is learned through going, I didn't know you could do that etc.
And I don't ask for pity, first no one is going to give me money from that far away. The advice how to set up units were very helpful, and I am thankful for those.
I'm sad that my 6k of painted grey noodles are shelved indefinitely, but I have very little faith that CA will fix anything. I bet taking another 2 points off our terminators and making vortex of doom casting level 7 won't exactly do much.
Vortex is overrate in my opinion. It target the nearest MODEL not UNIT. This means that it is very unlikely that every time it is casted it can target more that one unit. Moreover you can't use it in cc because it could kill your models. Give it a casting level of 7 would change nothing.
We need more and deeper changes. Even without change completely codex (that would be the real fix) we need:
deep point drop for almost all our units (except apothecary and GMDK maybe, but in comparison with shield captain on jetbike we could deserve a point drop also for him), the possibility to use Librarius discipline and/or add 6 powers to sanctic (using the 5 ed. powers as base), IC with full smite, halve the tech marine cost, add to a brother captain the reroll wound of 1 rule, add 1 attack and double the aura range for purifiers, that should also have an AOE effect, redesign nemesis weapons (i.e. nemesis sword add 1 to invuln like in 5ed) and in particular redesign special weapons. Psycannon should became antitank for instance.
Moreover we need the third lost page of stratagem and change some of them. An IK stratagem allow ALL the imperial stubber of all IKs in the army to improve the VP of -1. For all the game.
Please give us back Psybolt. 3 CP all the army have psybolt for the whole game.
They have to rewrite all traits and relic because most of all suck.
It's definitely one of those Codices where you might as well only have one choice as a Warlord trait because the other ones are just that bad or mediocre.
Jaxler wrote: I'm sad that my 6k of painted grey noodles are shelved indefinitely, but I have very little faith that CA will fix anything. I bet taking another 2 points off our terminators and making vortex of doom casting level 7 won't exactly do much.
Actually taking 2 points off of the terminators would bring them back down to where they were in the index. Ironically. Yes, Grey Knight terminators were slightly nerfed with the codex, believe it or not.
And Vortex is the worst spell in the game. It's a bad smite that can hurt your dudes.
They have interernal staff who look at stuff, internal playtesting, and external playtesting.
They don't frequently go into detail about why a specific change was made.
The Community team will make comments on what's good and why, but they don't have direct access to the rules team - so they've got only slightly more insight than we do.
And Vortex is the worst spell in the game. It's a bad smite that can hurt your dudes.
Arguably, the worst one is 'eadbanger.
Vortez ain't bad as a leftover opportunistic power. It becomes much better later on when there are mostly characters and msu left on board. So, it's better on tougher characters.
Bharring wrote: They have interernal staff who look at stuff, internal playtesting, and external playtesting.
They don't frequently go into detail about why a specific change was made.
The Community team will make comments on what's good and why, but they don't have direct access to the rules team - so they've got only slightly more insight than we do.
It seems kind of a strange, how do people know what was design intent. In Xwing the team goes really in depth to explain why each unit has a different cost.
There are some design commentary notes released. And some things are inferred by decisions made. But it's nowhere near as concrete or in depth as some other companies.
And Vortex is the worst spell in the game. It's a bad smite that can hurt your dudes.
Arguably, the worst one is 'eadbanger.
Vortez ain't bad as a leftover opportunistic power. It becomes much better later on when there are mostly characters and msu left on board. So, it's better on tougher characters.
How is it better than smite? If you're going to argue that vortex becomes much better... how would you characterize regular smite? Because if you're going to make that case, there are a ton of better choices than GK...
Of course I completely disagree with your comment, Vortex is only useful when things are clumped, and things aren't clumped at the end of the game. It is most useful in the early game, and after a deep strike, which whoops, you can't do anymore.
And Vortex is the worst spell in the game. It's a bad smite that can hurt your dudes.
Arguably, the worst one is 'eadbanger.
Vortez ain't bad as a leftover opportunistic power. It becomes much better later on when there are mostly characters and msu left on board. So, it's better on tougher characters.
How is it better than smite? If you're going to argue that vortex becomes much better... how would you characterize regular smite? Because if you're going to make that case, there are a ton of better choices than GK...
Of course I completely disagree with your comment, Vortex is only useful when things are clumped, and things aren't clumped at the end of the game. It is most useful in the early game, and after a deep strike, which whoops, you can't do anymore.
I think it's obvious. D3 mw to possibly 2-3 units are better than 1 mw to 1 unit. And yes, it's opportunistic as i've said. However, it's not that rare to get in such situations where it can be used. Especially good in some situations.
And Vortex is the worst spell in the game. It's a bad smite that can hurt your dudes.
Arguably, the worst one is 'eadbanger.
Vortez ain't bad as a leftover opportunistic power. It becomes much better later on when there are mostly characters and msu left on board. So, it's better on tougher characters.
How is it better than smite? If you're going to argue that vortex becomes much better... how would you characterize regular smite? Because if you're going to make that case, there are a ton of better choices than GK...
Of course I completely disagree with your comment, Vortex is only useful when things are clumped, and things aren't clumped at the end of the game. It is most useful in the early game, and after a deep strike, which whoops, you can't do anymore.
I think it's obvious. D3 mw to possibly 2-3 units are better than 1 mw to 1 unit. And yes, it's opportunistic as i've said. However, it's not that rare to get in such situations where it can be used. Especially good in some situations.
yes, this is obvious, but vortex has a warp charge of 8...
Vortex only deals wounds if your opponent is completely unaware of how the spell works. This spell literally requires your opponent have a complete ignorance of the power to function.
Ignoring all of that.
You need an 11 (because of +1) to get D6 wounds out of it. And you cast it on a 7 (also because of +1).
The expected mortal wounds per cast of Vortex of Doom is 1.29. It has a tiny range and can hurt your guys. If they clump up 2 characters, that doubles to 2.6 mortal wounds. This is garbage.
Maybe GK could get some aoe pull spell. A 9" radius that pulls all models to the caster 2d6", unless they hit impassible terrain and then they take mortal wounds. The make a interceptor HQ, and you could take shunt behind some LoS blocking terrain, cast the aoe, make everything hit walls and take MW, and then blast them with the Vortex.
Danarc wrote: Unfortunately WH isn't X wing (from rules and contact with rule team points of views).
We'll never know what the rule team actually thinks.
I know what they think. They think a psychic army should actually have worse psychic abilities than an army of clowns.
Wait, you're upset that an army of clowns serving a Chaos God coming from a race where every member is a psker and being glass cannon with little firepower, "happens" to have better psyker powers than "SM+1" pskers?
Little firepower? The army I faced the other day had fusion pistols on open topped vehicles. 2 of those pistols can take down a dreadnaught with average rolls.
Also everyone has a 4++ save. They're also incredibly mobile. So I don't know if "glass cannon" is appropriate.
I meant thematically. Thematically, Harlies are glass cannons who die to boltguns (they do die to boltguns fast enough, but that 4++ and their vehicles change things). Thematically, they don't have a lot of firepower (those pistols have 6" range, 3" for the melta rule, and only a couple "big guns" that are about what you'd see on a Tac squad).
I'm disagreeing with the idea that Harlies should be worse psykers than GK. I'm not claiming Harlies are weaker than GK.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Little firepower? The army I faced the other day had fusion pistols on open topped vehicles. 2 of those pistols can take down a dreadnaught with average rolls.
Also everyone has a 4++ save. They're also incredibly mobile. So I don't know if "glass cannon" is appropriate.
Harlequins are much, much stronger than Grey Knights. There is no debate here, I highly doubt anyone would take the contrarian stance.
And Grey Knights would really benefit from some diversity in their unit choices. My guess is, they'll get primaris, and GW will call them balanced.
'eadbanger only sucks because there isn't anything T4/T3 worth using it on right now. Although, if that changes, the power could be solid.
Imagine someone has Saint Celestine, and you just slay that outright on a 4+, even if there are Superia to tank wounds. There are use cases for this power. The only problem is, the other powers are SO good, and it is worse overall than smite in a take-all-comers situation.
Vortex in its current form will *never* be useful.
LunarSol wrote: Can we just agree that Vortex is in the running for the worst? If not actually the worst its a solid runner up?
I don't know - space marines have a really terrible line shot mortal wound attack. It does a single mortal wound to everything within 3d6 in a straight line I think. Warp charge 7. You would honestly be lucky to do more than 1 mortal wound with it with it's terrible range.
LunarSol wrote: Can we just agree that Vortex is in the running for the worst? If not actually the worst its a solid runner up?
I don't know - space marines have a really terrible line shot mortal wound attack. It does a single mortal wound to everything within 3d6 in a straight line I think. Warp charge 7. You would honestly be lucky to do more than 1 mortal wound with it with it's terrible range.
LunarSol wrote: Can we just agree that Vortex is in the running for the worst? If not actually the worst its a solid runner up?
I don't know - space marines have a really terrible line shot mortal wound attack. It does a single mortal wound to everything within 3d6 in a straight line I think. Warp charge 7. You would honestly be lucky to do more than 1 mortal wound with it with it's terrible range.
Still better than Vortex.
SJ
Ehhh...vortex is situational but it can be great because it has high potential. It at least forces your opponent to spread out a little bit. Kind of like an area denial weapon - you never have to cast it. On someone like Voldus he can just cast his other 2 powers and trash smite so holding vortex never hurts him.
Also for example if you have a single strike marine with the power and you don't mind losing him - run him right into the gauntlet and let it rip.
I'm not saying the power is great (marmatag actaully taught me why it sucks because I was misusing it before) but at least it still has potential. Sadly - Greyknights have NO potential.
Purge soul should also be in consideration for worst power. You have to successfully manifest it and then win a Ld roll to inflict mortal wounds. There aren't a lot of units that don't have Ld 8+ that are worth using the power on. And you have to be within 12" to use it.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Purge soul should also be in consideration for worst power. You have to successfully manifest it and then win a Ld roll to inflict mortal wounds. There aren't a lot of units that don't have Ld 8+ that are worth using the power on. And you have to be within 12" to use it.
Slaanesh's Cacophonic Choir is the same, except it has the same targeting restrictions as Smite, meaning the enemy controls what you hit with it.
I don't agree with some of the things said here, so let's back up. Instead of arguing what is worse, let's grade out the powers, evaluated in the context of GK and how they operate.
Gate of Infinity: C I give this power a C because it can only be used on Grey Knights keyword models. With unreliable charges and poor shooting overall, Gate of Infinity is useful primarily in that it allows for the potential movement of otherwise essentially immobile squads. Should you run overpriced vehicles, they can be gated out of combat, although that begs the question, why are you running these vehicles in the first place?
Astral Aim: B This power would be an "A" in any other codex, it is fantastic in what it aims to do, it is just unfortunate that it is found in the Grey Knight codex. Shooting without line of sight is only as good as the guns you're actually shooting. Grey Knights lack meaningful firepower. Ignoring cover is okay but not great.
Hammerhand: C- Another power that really doesn't get any meaningful use because it requires being cast before the charge is made. If the game shifts into the realms of lower model counts and high toughness targets with no invulnerable save, this power could move up the ranks as it would allow strength 5 weapons to wound T8 on 4s. But again, the delivery system of Grey Knights is so bad that it doesn't actually provide much to the army. Only affecting one unit really hurts this power. As an aura it might be better. Consider the blood angels chapter tactic, dramatically better, and still mediocre.
Sanctuary: B This is a solid power, the ability to increment an invulnerable save is essential to an army that cannot afford to lose any models. This power right here gives your GMNDK a chance to survive. Since the codex is built around leveraging this specific model, and given its general uses, this power is solid, wholly because it makes your best unit better. Outside of this, it can be cast on terminators wielding a nemesis force stave, so when in combat, they would have a 3++. Again not game breaking, but given the context of this awful army, it's a solid power. Unfortunately it only affects one squad, which makes it incredibly easy to play around.
Purge Soul: C- This power's use can be summed up in 2 specific cases: Firstly, when you want to attempt to swing mortal wounds at a character with mediocre leadership (8, or 9). You can potentially deal 5 mortal wounds on 1 cast target a character. Secondly, when facing low-leadership units. Unfortunately the number of these units are actually really small. Units like Ork Boyz are functionally immune because of their morale rules. The idea is nice, but the execution is poor.
Vortex of Doom: F While this may not be the worst power in the game, it is certainly terrible, it's expected mortal wounds is pathetic, and its high casting value means it's failing quite a bit. The use cases are further limited, if it is cast in combat, you will hit your own psyker should you succeed. In essence, a smite with less range, that is more difficult to cast, and can hurt your dudes. Normally you'd ask "why not just cast smite?" Well, that brings us to the next power. If Grey Knights were suddenly buffed to Custodes level awesome, this power would still not see use.
Smite / Rites of Banishment - 12" Range: F The worst smite in the game deals 1 mortal wound instead of D3/D6, and is cast at 12" instead of 18". Even Grey Knight librarians have this power, making them a wholly worthless choice in the army. The head of ITC and GW beta testers has commented on this very forum that if you're casting smite as Grey Knights, you're doing it wrong. You do deal 3 mortal wounds to daemons, but be careful not to kill them or they'll just come back.
Smite / Rites of Banishment - 3" Range: D- The ability to do a guaranteed D6 mortal wounds with smite sound amazing, and anyone who has never played Grey Knights before is salivating at the thought of doing this to someone. Unfortunately this ability only comes on Purifiers, which are 140 points for 5 basic strike marines, and Castellan Crowe, the HQ with a chainsword and storm bolter. People who let you get in range with this spell are the kind of opponents you need as Grey Knights to make them playable. In the context of Grey Knights, if the army functioned, this power might function too, which is why it gets better than an F. And remember, D6 expects 3.5. D3 expects 2. So this is still barely better damage wise than a normal smite, but doesn't have that 18" range.
And these are my grades. Some of the powers being discussed I would also grade very low. Remember, too, there is no "F-," because an F means failure, and you do not receive a grade.
Very generous. Personally, I think the mediocrity, yet kind of meat and potatoes functionality of these spells makes being able to cast them more than once per psychic phase a good way to fix things in the matched play rules. Probably still limit each psyker to 1 cast of each, but in general it feels like the idea is that these spells should be providing pretty considerable utility across the army that matched play currently forbids.
Also, the daemon rule is probably the one thing in 8th I cannot comment on in any sort of rational or polite manner.
Would it fix GK a bit, if all the spells weren't spells but just abilities? So there would be no deny, each unit would have limited access to them like they have now, while character would be more flexible and would be able to pick 1-3 depending which one it is,
Karol wrote: Would it fix GK a bit, if all the spells weren't spells but just abilities? So there would be no deny, each unit would have limited access to them like they have now, while character would be more flexible and would be able to pick 1-3 depending which one it is,
Their powers need a rewrite, that's just all there is to it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: It was probably an attempt to make it so A daemon player might actually consider a game with a GK player. However - they went TOO FAR!
Any daemon player worth his salt would curb stomp Grey Knights into the floor even without this stratagem.
Xenomancers wrote: It was probably an attempt to make it so A daemon player might actually consider a game with a GK player. However - they went TOO FAR!
I mean, I know it was sort of a waste of their time to set up a whole game just to table the Grey Knights in the first turn, but I really don't see how this helped.
Marmatag wrote: I don't agree with some of the things said here, so let's back up. Instead of arguing what is worse, let's grade out the powers, evaluated in the context of GK and how they operate.
Gate of Infinity: C
I give this power a C because it can only be used on Grey Knights keyword models. With unreliable charges and poor shooting overall, Gate of Infinity is useful primarily in that it allows for the potential movement of otherwise essentially immobile squads. Should you run overpriced vehicles, they can be gated out of combat, although that begs the question, why are you running these vehicles in the first place?
Astral Aim: B
This power would be an "A" in any other codex, it is fantastic in what it aims to do, it is just unfortunate that it is found in the Grey Knight codex. Shooting without line of sight is only as good as the guns you're actually shooting. Grey Knights lack meaningful firepower. Ignoring cover is okay but not great.
Hammerhand: C-
Another power that really doesn't get any meaningful use because it requires being cast before the charge is made. If the game shifts into the realms of lower model counts and high toughness targets with no invulnerable save, this power could move up the ranks as it would allow strength 5 weapons to wound T8 on 4s. But again, the delivery system of Grey Knights is so bad that it doesn't actually provide much to the army. Only affecting one unit really hurts this power. As an aura it might be better. Consider the blood angels chapter tactic, dramatically better, and still mediocre.
Sanctuary: B
This is a solid power, the ability to increment an invulnerable save is essential to an army that cannot afford to lose any models. This power right here gives your GMNDK a chance to survive. Since the codex is built around leveraging this specific model, and given its general uses, this power is solid, wholly because it makes your best unit better. Outside of this, it can be cast on terminators wielding a nemesis force stave, so when in combat, they would have a 3++. Again not game breaking, but given the context of this awful army, it's a solid power. Unfortunately it only affects one squad, which makes it incredibly easy to play around.
Purge Soul: C-
This power's use can be summed up in 2 specific cases: Firstly, when you want to attempt to swing mortal wounds at a character with mediocre leadership (8, or 9). You can potentially deal 5 mortal wounds on 1 cast target a character. Secondly, when facing low-leadership units. Unfortunately the number of these units are actually really small. Units like Ork Boyz are functionally immune because of their morale rules. The idea is nice, but the execution is poor.
Vortex of Doom: F
While this may not be the worst power in the game, it is certainly terrible, it's expected mortal wounds is pathetic, and its high casting value means it's failing quite a bit. The use cases are further limited, if it is cast in combat, you will hit your own psyker should you succeed. In essence, a smite with less range, that is more difficult to cast, and can hurt your dudes. Normally you'd ask "why not just cast smite?" Well, that brings us to the next power. If Grey Knights were suddenly buffed to Custodes level awesome, this power would still not see use.
Smite / Rites of Banishment - 12" Range: F
The worst smite in the game deals 1 mortal wound instead of D3/D6, and is cast at 12" instead of 18". Even Grey Knight librarians have this power, making them a wholly worthless choice in the army. The head of ITC and GW beta testers has commented on this very forum that if you're casting smite as Grey Knights, you're doing it wrong. You do deal 3 mortal wounds to daemons, but be careful not to kill them or they'll just come back.
Smite / Rites of Banishment - 3" Range: D-
The ability to do a guaranteed D6 mortal wounds with smite sound amazing, and anyone who has never played Grey Knights before is salivating at the thought of doing this to someone. Unfortunately this ability only comes on Purifiers, which are 140 points for 5 basic strike marines, and Castellan Crowe, the HQ with a chainsword and storm bolter. People who let you get in range with this spell are the kind of opponents you need as Grey Knights to make them playable. In the context of Grey Knights, if the army functioned, this power might function too, which is why it gets better than an F. And remember, D6 expects 3.5. D3 expects 2. So this is still barely better damage wise than a normal smite, but doesn't have that 18" range.
And these are my grades. Some of the powers being discussed I would also grade very low. Remember, too, there is no "F-," because an F means failure, and you do not receive a grade.
I would like to read your considerations (like this one) also related to GK units, traits and relics.
Storm Raven / Land Raider / Razorback / Rhino / Dreadnought: D Worse than their marine counterparts across the board, because they do not have access to wound rerolls. In the case of the Dreadnought, it is actually more expensive, but can cast a power. This is laughable considering how bad the powers are. The ability to cast one very weak psychic power is not worth the extra points. Land Raiders, Razorbacks, and Storm Ravens are made semi-usable by rerolls, which the Grey Knights have trouble producing. No wound rerolls, as mentioned, and also, only Draigo - at 240 points - can provide full hit rerolls. Because of the overall limited model line, these also lack the synergy that you might traditionally expect from these units.
Named HQs: D Draigo, Voldus, Castellan Crowe, are a sorry lot. Draigo provides some value in that he can give your army full hit rerolls, and is durable enough with a T4/3++. All in all these guys don't provide anything unique. Voldus gives you reroll 1s and an extra power. Castellan Crowe's big thing is that he has a fluffy sword which has strength 4, and no AP. Color me depressed, that is an awful weapon for a named HQ. Their warlord traits are just plain bad. Draigo's is specific to daemons, and if you're in your right mind you won't want any of your GK dealing the final wound to anything daemon. Voldus gets an extra power, but again, that doesn't really help you considering you don't have more than 2 powers really worth casting. Castellan has a D6 smite but again, at 3" it really doesn't do much for you, since he needs to be in combat but will be summarily wrecked by anything that is designed for combat and worth hitting with potentially 6 mortal wounds. In essence you've got some overpriced reroll babysitters with strong melee profiles but no mobility or way to get there. Bring Draigo for the rerolls, and then realize you can do the same thing with a jump pack captain essentially for 96 points in any marine army.
Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight: B Being T6, 2+/4++, and able to pump out 18 shots at middle range, with deep strike, for essentially 300 points. He's super expensive, but can hold his own in melee against other big things, and if he's in trouble he can exit with Gate of Infinity. Works well with Sanctuary, because 4++ is somewhat unreliable, but 3++ is balls out awesome on a big buddy who can deal damage. All in all it's a solid unit, if a bit overpriced. If you roll your 4++ fairly well these can be really problematic for your opponent. If your dice are cold he'll drop like a bag of dirt. Is targetable, and will be targeted, since he costs 300 points and gives up 4 Kingslayer points.
Non-Named HQs: D+ These guys come in higher than their named counterparts because they can provide rerolls or other buffs, but allow you to select your warlord trait so you aren't stuck with garbage, and also, will save you points. You'll always want the reroll charge. Additionally, you can take relics. While almost all of them are complete garbage, you can get a feel no pain on your warlord, which helps you survive and deny slay the warlord. But when it comes to actually accomplishing something on the table they're found wanting for the same reasons as their named brethren - they don't offer enough utility, they aren't scary enough in melee, and they aren't mobile. How often do you see marine players bringing a terminator captain? Right.
Grey Knight Librarian: F Wanted to single this guy out as being one of the most useless models in all of 40kdom. He is the only librarian in the game with the 1 wound smite. You must bring him with terminator armor. He is bad. Very bad. I did want to call this out though, because in the index the Grey Knight librarian didn't have Rites of Banishment, which meant that he used to have the full D3/D6 smite. This would have made for an interesting list, because the brother captain can double smite range. Dropping smites with no penalty at 36" would be neat. Although the rule of 3 would render this strategy pointless, it would have been interesting to see a list full of these, with stormshields and force staves, smiting everyone's face off. Of course this is all theorycraft based on the game at 8th edition launch.. granted that is the only fun way to play as or against Grey Knights - on paper.
Strike Squads: C+ If they were a part of a functional codex they wouldn't be half bad. They are essentially 21 point storm bolters with a marine wrapping. Yes, they have melee, but good luck honestly getting them there, and even if you do, they have 1 attack per model. They suffer from the same problems as most melee marine units that don't have specific stratagems or jump packs. They are slow. Their transports are bad. Consider this - any time you don't have them on the board actually shooting or fighting, it's wasted points, and that's a lot of points. And they aren't cheap. In essence, you're paying 7 extra points per model for a storm bolter and a pathetic psychic power, with a deny. Sternguard are flatly superior, as are deathwatch. One of your two troop choices in the codex, in order to make a battalion that is a minimum investment of 315 points in troops, for 15 models, with no invulnerable saves.
Interceptors: D+ More expensive strike marines that are a bit faster and can make a once-per-game shunt (deep strike). Occupy a fast attack slot. You'll never make a brigade, since they're not troops, they're unlikely to see play.
Terminators: F Terminators in general are terrible, and Grey Knight terminators are made worse by the fact that they have limited wargear options - no stormshields, terrible heavy weapons, and don't come stock with a power fist, they come with force swords, and you must pay extra for a hammer, when everyone else has power fists baked in. They do get a psychic power, and are troops, but neither of those things matter since the rest of their status makes them unplayable. Fun fact: these are almost 50 points per model. For 2 melee attacks base and a storm bolter. Of course, you can pay extra so they have attacks with strength higher than 4.
Paladins: F I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.
Purgation Squad: C- A heavy weapon squad that has the same baseline as the strike squads. In order to bring a heavy weapon as a Grey Knight, you must drop your force weapon. So these guys are similar to basic space marines, but different in that they lose a significant piece of wargear and pay points to get a heavy weapon. Psilencers, Incinerators, and Psycannons are all rather bad. Incinerators could be good if they were cheaper. They aren't, so they're not. The best thing these can do is volume of shots, but there are far cheaper, more durable ways to get dice volumes, and with better synergy. If you really need to chew up lots of little things with shooting, are you aware that deathwatch exist?
Purifier Squad: F You'll pay a base 140 points for a strike squad that has a D6 smite at 3". That's the difference here. Same attacks, etc. The only difference is you can bring 2 garbage heavy weapons per 5 instead of 1. For a base cost of +35 points, in an army that is already struggling with pricey models. And these still die just as fast as strike marines. These also have no unique stratagem to make them useful, and nothing that synergizes with their heavy weapons.
All in all there is little synergy between Grey Knights units, and their wargear is very poor. If you want to mass storm bolters there are better ways to get volume of shots, whether it be sisters of battle, deathwatch, or just raven guard. If you want to fight in melee, there are better ways to do this, as well, that are cheaper, and faster. Consider both Custodes and Blood Angels, who synergize well with imperial guard and can actually make it into combat. Their HQ slots are robust and their relics enhance them greatly. And if you need psychic powers in your imperium, there are cheaper ways to do it, and any other army will actually have real smite, which in a take-all-comers scenario is far and away the best choice. Even a normal non-Grey Knights psyker can still hit a daemon for 3 mortal wounds with his smite. Finally, should you find yourself facing daemons, the last thing you want is Grey Knights, as they'll allow the opponent to revive slain units effortlessly.
Paladins: F
I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.
I was going to scoff at you about that until I did the maths. Wow. Custodes aren’t undercosted outside of Dawneagles, so Paladins (hell, all Terminators of any stripe) need to come crashing down in price.
Also, you think Paladins cost sooo much? A fully kitted squad of Custodes Terminators is 880 points!
I have 2 squads of strikes, 2 purgation, 5 terminators, 3 paladins, apothecary, an ancient, Voldus and a brother captain and a rhino I repainted from my Gladius (frankly I don't think I'll be using that many vehicles ever again)
I'm not saying I feel like I wasted my money, but...
I was really excited for the codex originally and now I'm glad I haven't bought it yet. Which says a lot about about a faction, I'm glad I haven't purchased more.
Paladins: F
I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.
I was going to scoff at you about that until I did the maths. Wow. Custodes aren’t undercosted outside of Dawneagles, so Paladins (hell, all Terminators of any stripe) need to come crashing down in price.
Also, you think Paladins cost sooo much? A fully kitted squad of Custodes Terminators is 880 points!
Fully decked out squad of paladins is **I think** 770 or around there. So yeah, they’re comparable in price, but have a worse toughness, invuln, weapon, 10 less wounds and less ws and bs and worse movement.
They also have worse Stratagems than the Custodes, but they don’t have worse weapons. At 736 points that squad is going to be rocking Daemonhammers, which match the Custodes’ Str 8, have one better AP and have fixed 3 Dmg as opposed to D3, admittedly at the cost of -1 to hit. They’ll also have 6 Storm Bolters - which are about equal the shooting part of 6 Castellan Axes as twice the number of shots at half the damage is better, but the Custodes have -1 AP - and 4 Psycannons. The Psycannons are better than 4 Castellan Axes shooting, but not enough to equal the Custodes also getting Grenade Launchers.
All in all, with the Paladins having the better close combat weapons but the Allarus having the better shooting I’d say the weapons are about equal.
The GK also have psychic powers and the ability to deny powers effectively (which is really useful for an elite army). Overall the 15pts/model difference isn’t big enough for the Custodes’ other advantages.
Karol wrote: How often does GW re-do their armies, every tournament seson or is it possible for them to do it ad hoc, considering Grey Knights are so bad?
In fact why didn't GW errata them already, if 2/3 of the codex is F ranked.
No-one knows when they redo codexes. My guess is we'll see new versions of some codexes within year but which order is another thing. Likely decided by whatever miniature sculptors have been up to.
Karol wrote: How often does GW re-do their armies, every tournament seson or is it possible for them to do it ad hoc, considering Grey Knights are so bad?
In fact why didn't GW errata them already, if 2/3 of the codex is F ranked.
No-one knows when they redo codexes. My guess is we'll see new versions of some codexes within year but which order is another thing. Likely decided by whatever miniature sculptors have been up to.
This is very unlikely.
GW is releasing new edition of AoS and moreover there are several armies that don't have a codex yet. In addition Sisters of battle will be released (probably) on January. According to this this year we will not see second edition of already released codex.
Despite this I believe that in 8th edition GW will release more than one codex for some or every armies, with the release of new models. But not tis year.
Anyway, GK will be "fixed", according to Cruddace sentence, on CA. This confirms that it is very unlikely to see new codex within this year, and if they will not release a new GK codex probably they will not release any second edition codex.
Danarc wrote: GW is releasing new edition of AoS and moreover there are several armies that don't have a codex yet. In addition Sisters of battle will be released (probably) on January. According to this this year we will not see second edition of already released codex.
Despite this I believe that in 8th edition GW will release more than one codex for some or every armies, with the release of new models. But not tis year.
Anyway, GK will be "fixed", according to Cruddace sentence, on CA. This confirms that it is very unlikely to see new codex within this year, and if they will not release a new GK codex probably they will not release any second edition codex.
AOS has btw already had multiple versions of their versions of codex so...
Sisters coming even in december 2019 wouldn't affect new editions. There's no law requiring GW to do full set of codexes before redoing AND INDEED THEY HAVE HISTORY OF REVERSE! It's super hyper mega rare for GW to actually release complete set of codexes before mark 2 comes. Like maybe once in the history of GW? Maybe 2. No more than that. And that is becoming more and more unlikely with new factions...
Anyway, GK will be "fixed", according to Cruddace sentence, on CA. This confirms that it is very unlikely to see new codex within this year, and if they will not release a new GK codex probably they will not release any second edition codex.
That is a long time to wait. Did GW ever explain why they aren't fixing stuff faster. I get that they want to sell the codex, but am sure they make more on the models, and with bad rules no one isgoing to be buying more grey knights models. Seems like they are shoting themself in the foot, on top of making customers unhappy, and yes I know that a companies job is not to make people happy, but to pay dividends.
The only explanation I can think of is that they don't really understand their own game, or have much foresight when it comes to what certain changes to the game or to specific units will do to the game.
Any time they make a change you would think they would go down a list and ask "so how does this interact with X unit/faction?" and "now that we've changed X thing what are X faction players going to do?" to make sure that the game is actually improving, and at least make the most obvious counter changes to avoid situations like GK being terrible due to FAQs that otherwise improve the game.
That being said, balancing the game is definitely a lot of work, and it's probably not as easy as we want it to be. They have also committed to try to balance it 2-3 times a year, which is definitely laudable. We'll see what they do in the next year or so once the codexes are all out and they have more time to balance things.
Apparently, GW’s dev team individually bid for which codex/army they want to work on, which is why we see a skew in which codexes are always completed first versus the one that are always last or never completed at all.
What a horrible way to run a product line. It’s like they have no clue how a business works.
Karol wrote: How often does GW re-do their armies, every tournament seson or is it possible for them to do it ad hoc, considering Grey Knights are so bad?
In fact why didn't GW errata them already, if 2/3 of the codex is F ranked.
Just remember, 2/3's of the codex may not be F ranked. It's definitely a weak book which needs a re-do, but to call every single unit the worst possible unit in the game might be the kind of exaggeration that shows why GW doesn't just blindly start implementing random forum comments from users.
Paladins: F I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.
I was going to scoff at you about that until I did the maths. Wow. Custodes aren’t undercosted outside of Dawneagles, so Paladins (hell, all Terminators of any stripe) need to come crashing down in price.
Also, you think Paladins cost sooo much? A fully kitted squad of Custodes Terminators is 880 points!
Custodes have way better stratagems, and no one runs paladins with daemon hammers. You put one on the sergeant since he's 2+ but the rest you want Halberds or Falchions. Most people modeled with Falchions because it's the best in take-all-comers scenario.
Let's also remember that a squad of custodes will have at least 1, or 2, storm shields, which means they've got a 3++. Paladins having a 5+ invulnerable save, versus the Custodes 3+ invulnerable save, is really what makes the battle skew ugly in Custodes favor.
And to point out:
These are just my grades. They are not formal assignments of any kind and i'm sure many people would disagree, but if so we could have a debate because i feel pretty knowledgeable about this codex.
My personal opinion of GK, and how to fix them, would be as follows:
1. Give them access to all the Astartes psychic disciplines (space wolves, blood angels, adeptus astartes, dark angels) as well as Inquisition discipline. Suddenly they have some really good powers. Specifically what is in the Sanguinary discipline would really help out. 10 Terminators with wings of Sanguinius? Actually not half bad.
2. Expand their force org to include Inquisition. Currently inquisition is an absolute joke of an army, and the current soup rules make them just plain putrid.
3. Expand their force org to include assassins.
4. Redefine the melee weapons as follows:
(a) Nemesis Force Sword: +1 save, +1 invuln in melee (5+ if don't have one) (b) Nemesis Force Halberd: AP-3, up from AP-2, and strength +2, up from +1 (c) Nemesis Falchions: +2 attacks, up from +1 (d) Nemesis Daemon Hammer: No penalty to hit, strength +5, AP-4, 3 damage. (e) Nemesis Force Stave: +1 to deny the witch attempts
5. Redefine the ranged weapons as follows:
(a) Storm Bolter: Replace with Grey Knights Stormbolter, which is strength 5. Against daemons, it ignores invulnerable saves, but stays AP-. (b) Psycannon: Increase range to 36", increase damage to D3, and AP-2. (c) Psilencer: Change to assault. Can target psykers & daemons regardless of character targeting rules. (d) Incinerators: Change to 12" range.
6. Update rites of banishment. Remove the "Grey Knights never suffer a penalty to cast smite," let them suffer a penalty, but also give them d3 smite. Their smite can never deal D6, but it should deal D3. Additionally, drop the 3" d6 smite. Replace with cleansing flame, which hits all enemy units within 6" with 2d6 strength 6 ap-1 auto-hits.
7. Give them the following stratagems (I am not naming them, i'll just describe).
(a) 1CP. Used when a unit of paladins or terminators is the target of a ranged or melee attack. For the remainder of this phase, reduce the damage of attacks targeting this unit by 1 to a minimum of 1.
(b) 1CP. Improve the range of the next psychic power you cast by 6"
(c) 2CP. When a unit with the Grey Knights keyword is slain by a unit with the daemon keyword, you may set it back up as though it has arrived from deep strike. This does not cost reinforcements.
(d) 2CP. Add 2" to the next charge you make.
(e) 1CP. Used when a unit is targeted in the shooting phase. Reduce hit rolls against this unit by -1.
(f) 2CP. Use at the end of your opponent's psychic phase. You may cast one power.
Essentially with these changes we could probably leave the points alone for the most part and the army would be functional.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Apparently, GW’s dev team individually bid for which codex/army they want to work on, which is why we see a skew in which codexes are always completed first versus the one that are always last or never completed at all.
What a horrible way to run a product line. It’s like they have no clue how a business works.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Apparently, GW’s dev team individually bid for which codex/army they want to work on, which is why we see a skew in which codexes are always completed first versus the one that are always last or never completed at all.
What a horrible way to run a product line. It’s like they have no clue how a business works.
SJ
I need more information. What do you mean bid for them? What do they bid with, ideas? And is there a source for this?
Paladins: F
I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.
I was going to scoff at you about that until I did the maths. Wow. Custodes aren’t undercosted outside of Dawneagles, so Paladins (hell, all Terminators of any stripe) need to come crashing down in price.
Also, you think Paladins cost sooo much? A fully kitted squad of Custodes Terminators is 880 points!
Custodes have way better stratagems, and no one runs paladins with daemon hammers. You put one on the sergeant since he's 2+ but the rest you want Halberds or Falchions. Most people modeled with Falchions because it's the best in take-all-comers scenario.
Let's also remember that a squad of custodes will have at least 1, or 2, storm shields, which means they've got a 3++. Paladins having a 5+ invulnerable save, versus the Custodes 3+ invulnerable save, is really what makes the battle skew ugly in Custodes favor.
And to point out:
These are just my grades. They are not formal assignments of any kind and i'm sure many people would disagree, but if so we could have a debate because i feel pretty knowledgeable about this codex.
My personal opinion of GK, and how to fix them, would be as follows:
1. Give them access to all the Astartes psychic disciplines (space wolves, blood angels, adeptus astartes, dark angels) as well as Inquisition discipline. Suddenly they have some really good powers. Specifically what is in the Sanguinary discipline would really help out. 10 Terminators with wings of Sanguinius? Actually not half bad.
2. Expand their force org to include Inquisition. Currently inquisition is an absolute joke of an army, and the current soup rules make them just plain putrid.
3. Expand their force org to include assassins.
4. Redefine the melee weapons as follows:
(a) Nemesis Force Sword: +1 save, +1 invuln in melee (5+ if don't have one)
(b) Nemesis Force Halberd: AP-3, up from AP-2, and strength +2, up from +1
(c) Nemesis Falchions: +2 attacks, up from +1
(d) Nemesis Daemon Hammer: No penalty to hit, strength +5, AP-4, 3 damage.
(e) Nemesis Force Stave: +1 to deny the witch attempts
5. Redefine the ranged weapons as follows:
(a) Storm Bolter: Replace with Grey Knights Stormbolter, which is strength 5. Against daemons, it ignores invulnerable saves, but stays AP-.
(b) Psycannon: Increase range to 36", increase damage to D3, and AP-2.
(c) Psilencer: Change to assault. Can target psykers & daemons regardless of character targeting rules.
(d) Incinerators: Change to 12" range.
6. Update rites of banishment. Remove the "Grey Knights never suffer a penalty to cast smite," let them suffer a penalty, but also give them d3 smite. Their smite can never deal D6, but it should deal D3. Additionally, drop the 3" d6 smite. Replace with cleansing flame, which hits all enemy units within 6" with 2d6 strength 6 ap-1 auto-hits.
7. Give them the following stratagems (I am not naming them, i'll just describe).
(a) 1CP. Used when a unit of paladins or terminators is the target of a ranged or melee attack. For the remainder of this phase, reduce the damage of attacks targeting this unit by 1 to a minimum of 1.
(b) 1CP. Improve the range of the next psychic power you cast by 6"
(c) 2CP. When a unit with the Grey Knights keyword is slain by a unit with the daemon keyword, you may set it back up as though it has arrived from deep strike. This does not cost reinforcements.
(d) 2CP. Add 2" to the next charge you make.
(e) 1CP. Used when a unit is targeted in the shooting phase. Reduce hit rolls against this unit by -1.
(f) 2CP. Use at the end of your opponent's psychic phase. You may cast one power.
Essentially with these changes we could probably leave the points alone for the most part and the army would be functional.
Standard dreadknights still would need work.
Paladins would still need 4 wounds and more attacks/storm shields.
Karol wrote: Would it fix GK a bit, if all the spells weren't spells but just abilities? So there would be no deny, each unit would have limited access to them like they have now, while character would be more flexible and would be able to pick 1-3 depending which one it is,
I’ve thought about this as well, essentially give them something like acts of faith where they choose between hammerhand, sanctuary, and maybe something unit-specific.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Paladins need WS/BS2+ standard and suddenly those three attacks they have make sense.
That will change nothing. The sergeant already has that, and it's a non factor.
The sergeant is the only one (and doesn't have the BS2+) is the point. If you look at it over time, it's 5/6 attacks landing with two dudes instead of 4, and then eventually with four dudes outside the Sergeant that's 10/12 instead of 8. That actually adds up instead of being a non-factor and doesn't make them attack more than a Custodes for whatever reason. It also makes them better with their range weapons, seeing as their saturation doesn't gain a lot of benefit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I just want to add your majority of fixes show you don't have much of a grasp for game balance.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Paladins need WS/BS2+ standard and suddenly those three attacks they have make sense.
That will change nothing. The sergeant already has that, and it's a non factor.
The sergeant is the only one (and doesn't have the BS2+) is the point. If you look at it over time, it's 5/6 attacks landing with two dudes instead of 4, and then eventually with four dudes outside the Sergeant that's 10/12 instead of 8. That actually adds up instead of being a non-factor and doesn't make them attack more than a Custodes for whatever reason. It also makes them better with their range weapons, seeing as their saturation doesn't gain a lot of benefit.
The core problems with paladins are much greater than just "hitting on 3s."
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Paladins need WS/BS2+ standard and suddenly those three attacks they have make sense.
That will change nothing. The sergeant already has that, and it's a non factor.
The sergeant is the only one (and doesn't have the BS2+) is the point. If you look at it over time, it's 5/6 attacks landing with two dudes instead of 4, and then eventually with four dudes outside the Sergeant that's 10/12 instead of 8. That actually adds up instead of being a non-factor and doesn't make them attack more than a Custodes for whatever reason. It also makes them better with their range weapons, seeing as their saturation doesn't gain a lot of benefit.
The core problems with paladins are much greater than just "hitting on 3s."
Also I just want to add your majority of fixes show you don't have much of a grasp for game balance.
Is this how you talk to people in a casual conversation? Or are you just That Guy behind the anonymity wall?
I kinda agree. No need to attack someone by saying they don’t know balence, especially without putting out evidence to explain why. It just comes off as rude and unflattering.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Paladins need WS/BS2+ standard and suddenly those three attacks they have make sense.
That will change nothing. The sergeant already has that, and it's a non factor.
The sergeant is the only one (and doesn't have the BS2+) is the point. If you look at it over time, it's 5/6 attacks landing with two dudes instead of 4, and then eventually with four dudes outside the Sergeant that's 10/12 instead of 8. That actually adds up instead of being a non-factor and doesn't make them attack more than a Custodes for whatever reason. It also makes them better with their range weapons, seeing as their saturation doesn't gain a lot of benefit.
The core problems with paladins are much greater than just "hitting on 3s."
Also I just want to add your majority of fixes show you don't have much of a grasp for game balance.
Is this how you talk to people in a casual conversation? Or are you just That Guy behind the anonymity wall?
It's actually a majority of the core problem (negative modifiers and over reliance on rerolls), the other problem being that their table is overall blech and that they also lack access to the basic Astartes table (along with the rest of the codex having that same exact issue). They're already more durable than most Terminators and eat twice as many D2 weapons, which is why they're actually at the height of mediocrity when it comes to Terminators rather than the F- you gave (AKA a lower score than the regular ones, which for the price makes literal no sense). SO, if your complaint is they're dying to Lascannons as well, forgive me when I say I couldn't care less and that's the job of a Lascannon. Youre not scaling.
And yes I do because I'm being direct. Your majority of fixes are bad. I'm sorry but someone had to be honest with you. You basically want to give the basic troopers the Custodes Halberd. That's beyond ridiculous, along with the Storm Bolter you came up with.
Durability isn't the problem, it's usefulness and utility. Paladins struggle to make it to combat in the first place. They have to eat sustained fire before they can get there. Deep striking them with the new ruleset is rather challenging, considering their high cost means there needs to be a solid table presence to offset their cost when determining if you have deployed legally, or not.
So essentially raising their BS and WS doesn't change much, considering they don't make it into combat with their desired targets. You have exactly 4 options with Paladins to get them into combat:
Option 1: Deep strike them. This doesn't work super well, considering people have learned to effectively screen, and most lists will deny you a decent chance to land within range of screens thanks to scout moving or scout deploying units. This is also a turn 2 play if you have the beta rules, meaning that you need to kill screens turn 1, and cleave a wide path so these folks can land within 9" of anything worth charging. This is easier said than done.
Option 2: Start them on the table, and Gate of Infinity. This has more problems than the turn 2 deep strike, because of the nature of how this game is played and the 9" area denial that is very easy to accomplish. Also, if your unit of Paladins is large enough, they make for a juicy target considering their very high point cost. While they have 3 wounds, there is numerous artillery in the game that has D3 damage. Although personally I would allow Paladins to deep strike, and only shoot them if they manage to become a potential threat. You could foot slog them, but i'm not covering that here as it's a bad idea with a 5" move.
Option 3: Start them in a Land Raider. The minimum investment here is 3 Paladins and the cost of the land raider itself. This makes for a juicy target, and you're already committing at least 25% of your list to these 4 models. People don't play land raiders for a reason, so unless you're prepared to argue that land raiders are viable and useful, this isn't a good strategy. Land raiders are easily surrounded, and doing so before they pop means you lose the entire squad you paid an arm and a leg for.
Option 4: Star them in a storm raven. Again will end up costing a pretty penny. Should the storm raven manage to live past turn 1, it will certainly die on turn 2. These are must-kill vehicles, which will require your paladins disembark on turn 2. You find yourself in a similar scenario here. Your best hope is that you go first, the raven lives through turn 1 shooting of your opponent, and the paladins disembark and charge. Is this really all that likely? No.
The logistical challenges of paladins extend well beyond the very minor buff you're suggesting, which would give them a basic improvement in combat efficiency without giving them an improvement in how they actually make it to combat. Compare the effectiveness of Paladins with Sanguinary Guard. People aren't falling over themselves to bring Sanguinary Guard, who have a higher damage potential and can also deep-strike and charge on 3D6 inches with Fly. Even with bridging the gap in regards to deployment logistics you still run into the problem of being elite infantry in a game where a mediocre invulnerable save and low toughness relative to point results in being punished.
Finally, despite all of this, you actually have to define what their desired target is on the table, and then argue that how a change from 3+ to 2+ would alter the game to make these guys go from being an F grade - which they absolutely are - to at least a C, which is average.
This is why I proposed a few things that help Paladins specifically.
Access to more psychic disciplines would allow Grey Knights to be effective in the Psychic phase. They solve a lot of the logistical problems in regards to movement and also allow for tactical flexibility beyond that. Further, the ability to increase charge distance, and reduce damage, would help these guys find their way into combat. Finally, once getting there, updating their weapons would mean they can actually hold their own.
As it stands right now, Paladins are flatly inferior to Thunderwolf Cavalry, Custodes, and other elite choppy fellows.
So i guess i'll just put this back on you:
What is your envisioned role for paladins in the context of grey knights & 40k, and how do you feel they should be designed to realize that use case?
Danarc wrote: GW is releasing new edition of AoS and moreover there are several armies that don't have a codex yet. In addition Sisters of battle will be released (probably) on January. According to this this year we will not see second edition of already released codex.
Despite this I believe that in 8th edition GW will release more than one codex for some or every armies, with the release of new models. But not tis year.
Anyway, GK will be "fixed", according to Cruddace sentence, on CA. This confirms that it is very unlikely to see new codex within this year, and if they will not release a new GK codex probably they will not release any second edition codex.
AOS has btw already had multiple versions of their versions of codex so...
Sisters coming even in december 2019 wouldn't affect new editions. There's no law requiring GW to do full set of codexes before redoing AND INDEED THEY HAVE HISTORY OF REVERSE! It's super hyper mega rare for GW to actually release complete set of codexes before mark 2 comes. Like maybe once in the history of GW? Maybe 2. No more than that. And that is becoming more and more unlikely with new factions...
Yes, but GW never released before all codex in a single edition, and never released index for example. You can't count on what GW did before 8th edition.
I still confirm my idea. No second edition codex will be released until all codex will be out. I explained well the reasons before.
Paladins: F
I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.
I was going to scoff at you about that until I did the maths. Wow. Custodes aren’t undercosted outside of Dawneagles, so Paladins (hell, all Terminators of any stripe) need to come crashing down in price.
Also, you think Paladins cost sooo much? A fully kitted squad of Custodes Terminators is 880 points!
Custodes have way better stratagems, and no one runs paladins with daemon hammers. You put one on the sergeant since he's 2+ but the rest you want Halberds or Falchions. Most people modeled with Falchions because it's the best in take-all-comers scenario.
Let's also remember that a squad of custodes will have at least 1, or 2, storm shields, which means they've got a 3++. Paladins having a 5+ invulnerable save, versus the Custodes 3+ invulnerable save, is really what makes the battle skew ugly in Custodes favor.
And to point out:
These are just my grades. They are not formal assignments of any kind and i'm sure many people would disagree, but if so we could have a debate because i feel pretty knowledgeable about this codex.
My personal opinion of GK, and how to fix them, would be as follows:
1. Give them access to all the Astartes psychic disciplines (space wolves, blood angels, adeptus astartes, dark angels) as well as Inquisition discipline. Suddenly they have some really good powers. Specifically what is in the Sanguinary discipline would really help out. 10 Terminators with wings of Sanguinius? Actually not half bad.
2. Expand their force org to include Inquisition. Currently inquisition is an absolute joke of an army, and the current soup rules make them just plain putrid.
3. Expand their force org to include assassins.
4. Redefine the melee weapons as follows:
(a) Nemesis Force Sword: +1 save, +1 invuln in melee (5+ if don't have one)
(b) Nemesis Force Halberd: AP-3, up from AP-2, and strength +2, up from +1
(c) Nemesis Falchions: +2 attacks, up from +1
(d) Nemesis Daemon Hammer: No penalty to hit, strength +5, AP-4, 3 damage.
(e) Nemesis Force Stave: +1 to deny the witch attempts
5. Redefine the ranged weapons as follows:
(a) Storm Bolter: Replace with Grey Knights Stormbolter, which is strength 5. Against daemons, it ignores invulnerable saves, but stays AP-.
(b) Psycannon: Increase range to 36", increase damage to D3, and AP-2.
(c) Psilencer: Change to assault. Can target psykers & daemons regardless of character targeting rules.
(d) Incinerators: Change to 12" range.
6. Update rites of banishment. Remove the "Grey Knights never suffer a penalty to cast smite," let them suffer a penalty, but also give them d3 smite. Their smite can never deal D6, but it should deal D3. Additionally, drop the 3" d6 smite. Replace with cleansing flame, which hits all enemy units within 6" with 2d6 strength 6 ap-1 auto-hits.
7. Give them the following stratagems (I am not naming them, i'll just describe).
(a) 1CP. Used when a unit of paladins or terminators is the target of a ranged or melee attack. For the remainder of this phase, reduce the damage of attacks targeting this unit by 1 to a minimum of 1.
(b) 1CP. Improve the range of the next psychic power you cast by 6"
(c) 2CP. When a unit with the Grey Knights keyword is slain by a unit with the daemon keyword, you may set it back up as though it has arrived from deep strike. This does not cost reinforcements.
(d) 2CP. Add 2" to the next charge you make.
(e) 1CP. Used when a unit is targeted in the shooting phase. Reduce hit rolls against this unit by -1.
(f) 2CP. Use at the end of your opponent's psychic phase. You may cast one power.
Essentially with these changes we could probably leave the points alone for the most part and the army would be functional.
There are some good points, and something that I can't agree (in particular the access to all SM chapters psychic power). But as you told these are opinions.
The problem is that even these modifications will not change some issues, like DK.
We really need a new codex (with points drop).
Anyway about psychic power we should have access to Librarium and have a second expanded santa list, taken from old 5 ed. powers like:
1) MIGHT OF TITAN (cast on 6+, a GK unit within 12" can reroll 1s to wound in CQC)
2) WARP QUAKE (cast on 8+, D3 mortals to enemies arriving from Tac Reserves within 18")
3) HOLOCAUST (cast on 8+, roll for each model in the closest unit within 12" and deal 1 mortal for every 6+, rerolling misses if the casting result was 12+)
4) QUICKSILVER (cast on 5+, a GK unit within 12" always strikes first in CQC for the remainder of the round)
5) THE SHROUDING (cast on 6+, -1 to hit each GK unit within 6")
6) DARK EXCOMMUNICATION (cast on 6+, a DAEMON unit within 12" must reroll successful saves)
(all these are ideas from a friend of mine)
Moreover GK should have ORDO MALLEUS keyword. This would be great. And fluffy
See that's the thing, if Grey knights get a bonus to their casting then all 6 of their powers should be like vortex. Like gate of infinity is what WC 6? How about if you get a 9+ then a second unit within X inches is also affected.
Granted it would a little swing at time but I think all their powers should have a little boost if you roll high enough
Marmatag wrote: Durability isn't the problem, it's usefulness and utility. Paladins struggle to make it to combat in the first place. They have to eat sustained fire before they can get there. Deep striking them with the new ruleset is rather challenging, considering their high cost means there needs to be a solid table presence to offset their cost when determining if you have deployed legally, or not.
So essentially raising their BS and WS doesn't change much, considering they don't make it into combat with their desired targets. You have exactly 4 options with Paladins to get them into combat:
Option 1: Deep strike them. This doesn't work super well, considering people have learned to effectively screen, and most lists will deny you a decent chance to land within range of screens thanks to scout moving or scout deploying units. This is also a turn 2 play if you have the beta rules, meaning that you need to kill screens turn 1, and cleave a wide path so these folks can land within 9" of anything worth charging. This is easier said than done.
Option 2: Start them on the table, and Gate of Infinity. This has more problems than the turn 2 deep strike, because of the nature of how this game is played and the 9" area denial that is very easy to accomplish. Also, if your unit of Paladins is large enough, they make for a juicy target considering their very high point cost. While they have 3 wounds, there is numerous artillery in the game that has D3 damage. Although personally I would allow Paladins to deep strike, and only shoot them if they manage to become a potential threat. You could foot slog them, but i'm not covering that here as it's a bad idea with a 5" move.
Option 3: Start them in a Land Raider. The minimum investment here is 3 Paladins and the cost of the land raider itself. This makes for a juicy target, and you're already committing at least 25% of your list to these 4 models. People don't play land raiders for a reason, so unless you're prepared to argue that land raiders are viable and useful, this isn't a good strategy. Land raiders are easily surrounded, and doing so before they pop means you lose the entire squad you paid an arm and a leg for.
Option 4: Star them in a storm raven. Again will end up costing a pretty penny. Should the storm raven manage to live past turn 1, it will certainly die on turn 2. These are must-kill vehicles, which will require your paladins disembark on turn 2. You find yourself in a similar scenario here. Your best hope is that you go first, the raven lives through turn 1 shooting of your opponent, and the paladins disembark and charge. Is this really all that likely? No.
The logistical challenges of paladins extend well beyond the very minor buff you're suggesting, which would give them a basic improvement in combat efficiency without giving them an improvement in how they actually make it to combat. Compare the effectiveness of Paladins with Sanguinary Guard. People aren't falling over themselves to bring Sanguinary Guard, who have a higher damage potential and can also deep-strike and charge on 3D6 inches with Fly. Even with bridging the gap in regards to deployment logistics you still run into the problem of being elite infantry in a game where a mediocre invulnerable save and low toughness relative to point results in being punished.
Finally, despite all of this, you actually have to define what their desired target is on the table, and then argue that how a change from 3+ to 2+ would alter the game to make these guys go from being an F grade - which they absolutely are - to at least a C, which is average.
This is why I proposed a few things that help Paladins specifically.
Access to more psychic disciplines would allow Grey Knights to be effective in the Psychic phase. They solve a lot of the logistical problems in regards to movement and also allow for tactical flexibility beyond that. Further, the ability to increase charge distance, and reduce damage, would help these guys find their way into combat. Finally, once getting there, updating their weapons would mean they can actually hold their own.
As it stands right now, Paladins are flatly inferior to Thunderwolf Cavalry, Custodes, and other elite choppy fellows.
So i guess i'll just put this back on you:
What is your envisioned role for paladins in the context of grey knights & 40k, and how do you feel they should be designed to realize that use case?
Thanks.
Anything without 10"+ mobility has that issue. That's nothing new to Terminators. Ever. It's also not a new issue to Berserker Marines. Luckily with the only Warlord trait you're taking they're okayish on chance to make the charge from Deep Strike. The issues you listed with Land Raiders and Storm Ravens are also nothing new and have to do with the price of those units. If you made Paladins the greatest Terminator ever it wouldn't fix the issues that Land Raiders and Storm Ravens have as delivery platforms.
Also Sanguine Guard only charge that 3D6 from a Stratagem. Which is once per turn. That's something Death Company or Slamguinus get as well, which would be better targets.
Also their target is going to depend on what weapons you give them, obviously. I'd give you three guesses as to what Falcion Paladins and LC Terminators should be going after, but you should really only need two.
My vision is the same for them as any other Terminator that's failing and seeing what the others that aren't crap are doing right. Those ones near that edge are the ones with the best damage potential. So basically an elite Shock Trooper.
The issue here is your fixes ignore other fixes that need to happen in the first place (you can't critique Paladins because of the issues Land Raiders have), along with some of them just being ridiculous to the point a child might as well have written them. Your Nemesis Halberd is the best literal example of how not to rules-write. Seriously.
You still haven't said anything at all. "It's how not to rules-write. Seriously." I'm glad I don't have to interact with you in real life. I bet you're a joy to discuss anything with.
My vision is the same for them as any other Terminator that's failing and seeing what the others that aren't crap are doing right. Those ones near that edge are the ones with the best damage potential. So basically an elite Shock Trooper.
Again you haven't said anything. This is a garbage answer.
So essentially you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and are just spouting off. I've been very detailed in my posts only to receive a "NAH, NUH-UH, UR DUMB" post from you. So i'm bowing out.
And, seriously, giving paladins 2+WS/BS wouldn't do A DAMN THING to help them. Because they aren't making it to combat in the first place. Unbury your head from the sand.
I have to agree that most of those ideas are pretty over the top.
I think we should consider the minimum changes that could be made to make GK decent. To me these things are:
Rhinos need fire points back.
All non HQPAGKs get 2 attacks base and drop by 2 points
Terminators drop to 40 points each with a SB and basic weapon.
Let any GK squad use smite, and hammer hand or astral aim, but those two only on themselves, once each turn without the current limitations, and have these three powers be the only ones they know, but they know all three. So every unit in your army could cast hammer hand if you wanted them to, or smite, or astral aim, and so on.
Let GK use HQs know those three plus 1-2 of the others, and be able to cast on other units like normal, and the normal rules can still apply to the other powers.
This would be a good, conservative place to start, I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also a points drop and WS/BS2+ for paladins would probably fix most of their issues. No need to reinvent the unit itself.
Marmatag wrote: You still haven't said anything at all. "It's how not to rules-write. Seriously." I'm glad I don't have to interact with you in real life. I bet you're a joy to discuss anything with.
My vision is the same for them as any other Terminator that's failing and seeing what the others that aren't crap are doing right. Those ones near that edge are the ones with the best damage potential. So basically an elite Shock Trooper.
Again you haven't said anything. This is a garbage answer.
So essentially you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and are just spouting off. I've been very detailed in my posts only to receive a "NAH, NUH-UH, UR DUMB" post from you. So i'm bowing out.
And, seriously, giving paladins 2+WS/BS wouldn't do A DAMN THING to help them. Because they aren't making it to combat in the first place. Unbury your head from the sand.
You want to give the basic Grey Knight Strike Squad the Custodes Halberd, and I know for a fact you want to give them and Purifiers an extra attack. So yeah that IS a ridiculous suggestion. You want a 20 point model to have a Rapid Fire 2 S5 Bolter that ignores Invul Saves and has a S6 AP-3 DD3 melee weapon with two attacks.
Think real hard for a moment why someone might think this fix is over the top. It's because it IS over the top.
So essentially you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and are just spouting off. I've been very detailed in my posts only to receive a "NAH, NUH-UH, UR DUMB" post from you. So i'm bowing out.
And, seriously, giving paladins 2+WS/BS wouldn't do A DAMN THING to help them. Because they aren't making it to combat in the first place. Unbury your head from the sand.
Calm down mate, your suggestions are too much and you're completely overdoing your argument on GK. Yes, they are in need of work... But lol @ every unit being F tier, and them needing what you suggested just to play. It's hyperbole like this that does more to hurt your cause than help. Let people with a more measured approach do what you are trying to
So essentially you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and are just spouting off. I've been very detailed in my posts only to receive a "NAH, NUH-UH, UR DUMB" post from you. So i'm bowing out.
And, seriously, giving paladins 2+WS/BS wouldn't do A DAMN THING to help them. Because they aren't making it to combat in the first place. Unbury your head from the sand.
Calm down mate, your suggestions are too much and you're completely overdoing your argument on GK. Yes, they are in need of work... But lol @ every unit being F tier, and them needing what you suggested just to play. It's hyperbole like this that does more to hurt your cause than help. Let people with a more measured approach do what you are trying to
I don't know the changes seem to not be much better then the best stuff other armies have right now. The GK power weapons could do 6 damage per swing and it would still not help much, because the problem with GK is that they can't reach melee, the fact that right now they are also kind of a bad at it is a secondary thing. At least from my point of view.
The lists I have seen have either super fast moving melee units that just melt opposing stuff, or super shoting, often the good armies have both types of units in the same army, and more often then not they also move rather fast. Now this could be my inexpiriance, but right now I think that a good army has to at least move very fast and be either very good at shoting or melee. Just good shoting means the army won't be able to play objectives, and will get hurt by any terrain on the table. And good melee and no way to reach it only works, if the units are really cheap, so even if you lose 60 of them there is still 60 left to kill opponents army.
That is why I agree with the argument that giving GK better hit won't help them. Maybe making them more tanky would, but that would either mean a huge price increase making them suck even more, or they would a really boring non interactive army, where you just spam the best cost to resilient unit camp objective, and hope opponent won't roll above avarge.
That is why I agree with the argument that giving GK better hit won't help them. Maybe making them more tanky would, but that would either mean a huge price increase making them suck even more, or they would a really boring non interactive army, where you just spam the best cost to resilient unit camp objective, and hope opponent won't roll above avarge.
That wasn't my argument tho. There's a middle ground just between +1 WS, and going full apeshit on the buffs like a monkey
Are there any other armies that don't have a way for non-vehicle units to charge airborne models besides GK? The only way for a GK army to bring down an airborne unit is through shooting we have no way to deliver a melee attack on one.
So essentially you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and are just spouting off. I've been very detailed in my posts only to receive a "NAH, NUH-UH, UR DUMB" post from you. So i'm bowing out.
And, seriously, giving paladins 2+WS/BS wouldn't do A DAMN THING to help them. Because they aren't making it to combat in the first place. Unbury your head from the sand.
Calm down mate, your suggestions are too much and you're completely overdoing your argument on GK. Yes, they are in need of work... But lol @ every unit being F tier, and them needing what you suggested just to play. It's hyperbole like this that does more to hurt your cause than help. Let people with a more measured approach do what you are trying to
I don't know the changes seem to not be much better then the best stuff other armies have right now. The GK power weapons could do 6 damage per swing and it would still not help much, because the problem with GK is that they can't reach melee, the fact that right now they are also kind of a bad at it is a secondary thing. At least from my point of view.
The lists I have seen have either super fast moving melee units that just melt opposing stuff, or super shoting, often the good armies have both types of units in the same army, and more often then not they also move rather fast. Now this could be my inexpiriance, but right now I think that a good army has to at least move very fast and be either very good at shoting or melee. Just good shoting means the army won't be able to play objectives, and will get hurt by any terrain on the table. And good melee and no way to reach it only works, if the units are really cheap, so even if you lose 60 of them there is still 60 left to kill opponents army.
That is why I agree with the argument that giving GK better hit won't help them. Maybe making them more tanky would, but that would either mean a huge price increase making them suck even more, or they would a really boring non interactive army, where you just spam the best cost to resilient unit camp objective, and hope opponent won't roll above avarge.
Nobody is saying GK doesn't need a revamp. What I'm saying is that the fixes proposed by that particular user were insane. Did you SEE that Storm Bolter fix they proposed? They would want a 20 point model to have:
1. A Rapid Fire 2 S5 weapon that ignores Invul Saves
2. 2 attacks at S6 AP-3 DD3 OR
3. 4 attacks at AP-2 DD3 OR
4. 2 attacks at AP-3 that somehow give them a bonus to their save
Quickjager wrote: Rapid fire 2 that ignores invul doesn't matter because it has no ap. It is only good against demonic hordes. S5 is debatable.
2 attacks at S6 ap3 DD3 is essentially what purifiers had last codex. They would cast hammerhead and force. Goodbye multiwouND models.
So no you are wrong. We already HAD this and we were bad.
No, it's ridiculous vs Daemons. S5 also becomes S6 because the Psybolts Strategem exists, and it needs to go down a CP anyway. It's basically paying 1CP for S6 AP-1 ignoring Invul. That's silly, sorry.
Also Purifiers didn't have 2 attacks last codex I'm pretty sure. Either way, you had to cast those powers. S6 with Hammerhead is silly again. It's not "essentially" what they had last edition. At all.
They did Slayer, are you seriously telling ME, THIS GUY, I don't remember my codex right.
And it was what they essentially had last edition because the powers were relatively easy to get off it had like something of a 60% chance to get both off. Also they could have 3 attacks last edition so you can argue they were even BETTER.
Also if you read Marmatags suggestions he was suggesting off a earlier post that they get the S5 based off a pre-game stratagem where if they pay a CP cost all eligible weapons would get psybolts.
If you dig further into the post you can see he is just joking about or parodying half the rules. Like the if Grey Knights keyword is slain by Daemons it may return at no cost.
S6 is barely even something you even want. S4 with +1 to wound hammerhand is great except only one unit can do it, and the psybolt strategem is pretty good too, granted it is also only on one unit.
That's why I think rhino fire points, +1 attack on all power armor dudes, and no limit on certain buff powers would be enough changes to start with.
I would like to see the old option for psybolt rifle dreads to come back, but that's only because I own two of them lol.
Rhino fire points just are not good for Power Armor anything anymore.
If you are going to put durable guys in a durable box just to use their firepower, you went wrong somewhere. The ideal unit to put in a Rhino would be a minimum squad that has nothing but Heavy or special weapons, which as we know Space Marines have nothing like that. The Rhino is a flawed unit in the current state. I would love for the Rhino to go down in points, lose some wounds, lose the ability to hold objectives, gain some movement.
The reason venoms and other Eldar strike craft are actually good is because they have WEAK guys in them that then are moved large distances to their most efficient target. They can also shoot out of the vehicles and get bonuses from doing so, i.e. splinter-racks or whatever they are called.
The Rhino is a flawed vehicle, just like the Razorback is a flawed vehicle.
Marines are not very durable, though, and being able to shoot out of a rhino seems better than not being able to. At least then you get to decide when you want to stay in the tank and be fairly effective and when to get out and be more effective but vulnerable.
If you want to make vehicles more useful rather than fire ports allow units to disembark after the vehicle moves. Just make it that they are not allowed to charge or enter melee after they exit the vehicle unless it is an assault type vehicle. And of course they count as having moved for shooting purposes.
Oh, I can confirm. Purifiers had 2 atk. Every GK player know it.
And just to be sure, I took my old codexes.
5 edition: 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+. 2 is the Attak value. 3 with falchions. 4 on charge. EACH
6/7 edition: 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+. Again 2 is the Attack value.
Helbard gave us +1 S but staff gave us +2. (Not in 5 ed where alabard gave us +2 to initiative, that can’t work on 8th edition)
So, we already had a way to have +2 on our weapons, and we had, also, the psychic power that grented us +2 on S, and, guess it, we could use it on ALL our units.
So, please, don’t bothering us with those ideas without knowing the rules.
We had the possibility to hit with S8 without penalty, and no one cared about it. There was worst combo. No one used it.
you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.
Karol wrote: Man, I wish I could play them with the old rules. If I got a 5th ed codex, would I be able to play them in this edition.
In general no. However, if you and your opponent agree, you can do anything you want.
You'd probably have to plan it with them before hand, and probably work with them on a conversion to 8th you both agreed seemed fun. Could be a fun thing to do, but you're not likely to find a bunch of people that would want to play that way, especially without prior conversations.
If you and a friend wanted to, though, there isn't anything stopping you.
SHUPPET wrote: you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.
We used to have:
Nemesis force staff: 2++ in CC Swords gave +1 invul in CC, halberd were +2 initiative, hammers standard but everything was a force weapon.
Purifiers had 2 attacks
Purifiers had cleansing flame as a stock power, aka a nova that did 2D6 auto hits (S5 AP- I think) to every unit within 9”
Inquisitors were HQ choices, we had henchmen as troops and elites
We had a flamer template version of Jaws of the World Wolf
We were essentially the only army that could deepstrike everything on turn 1
Dreadknights had shunt
Psybolt ammo was an upgrade for all units: +1 S to bolters and bolter types. Psycannons were S7 AP4 heavy 4/assault 2
Going back further:
You could only shoot GK if you made it through The Shrouding: 3D6x3= your range
Everyone had +1 attack thanks to True Grit
Warp Quake was a basic power for all GK troops: if you deepstuck within 9” (maybe 12”) you automatically mishapped
We had a special character with regenerating ghost bodyguards (RIP Mordrak)
Vortex of Doom was a blast template that insta-killed anything it touched
Codex Daemonhunters has options for daemonhosts (you couldn’t take GK if you had any). They were decent.
We had assasins in our codex...death cult and the big 4.
Psybolt ammo and psycannons ignored invul saves.
Thank you for at least admitting what a lot of people (including FLG) won’t: that longtime GK players know their army. It’s been highly frustrating to go from a fluffy, fleshed out Codex Daemonhunters in 4th (we had a section of “why X army would fight Daemonhunters”) to a GK-only codex with barely any on the elitism or style that got us into the army in 8th.
What the hell, why did they took that away? Does anyone have a link to an article or knows the WD in which the GW design team explains why they gave GK units the rules they have in 8th ed?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: No, 5th edition has a very different rules set to 8th. You are only supposed to use the Codex that belongs to that specific rules set.
I would not be that hard to port their old codex just drop their int stat give them six inch movement and then turn AP4 into -1 AP3 into -2 ect.
Personal teleporters need to work the way they did back in 7th. Basically a jump pack without making the unit jump infantry, while also having that super Shunt move. It would make Dreadknights great again.
I think the average GK Strike Squad member need veteran stats.
Do that, fix some of our psychic problems, and lower points on most troops by 2 and we are in the ballpark again
SHUPPET wrote: you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.
Thank you for at least admitting what a lot of people (including FLG) won’t: that longtime GK players know their army. It’s been highly frustrating to go from a fluffy, fleshed out Codex Daemonhunters in 4th (we had a section of “why X army would fight Daemonhunters”) to a GK-only codex with barely any on the elitism or style that got us into the army in 8th.
Oh, I have no doubt GK players know their army. But someone that knows the most doesn't always mean they will give the fairest opinions on it. That being said, I can easily imagine how frustrating it is. I'd be really annoyed if I mained the army, especially at a time when the game is more fun than ever. Got my fingers crossed for you guys getting some good improvements somewhere down the line, even if GW only gives you some bandaid fixes to some units so that you guys can at least play 8th until they give you a new book.
SHUPPET wrote: Oh, I have no doubt GK players know their army. But someone that knows the most doesn't always mean they will give the fairest opinions on it. That being said, I can easily imagine how frustrating it is. I'd be really annoyed if I mained the army, especially at a time when the game is more fun than ever. Got my fingers crossed for you guys getting some good improvements somewhere down the line, even if GW only gives you some bandaid fixes to some units so that you guys can at least play 8th until they give you a new book.
I hate to sound negative, but it probably won't happen. The codex is already released and at this point they are only going to adjust points. GK are well and truly fethed until 9th, which won't come out until 2020 at the earliest. Honestly I feel sorry for GK players, as a guard player who had to deal with 6th and 7th editions where we were utter garbage I know how they feel.
cuda1179 wrote: Personal teleporters need to work the way they did back in 7th. Basically a jump pack without making the unit jump infantry, while also having that super Shunt move. It would make Dreadknights great again.
I think the average GK Strike Squad member need veteran stats.
Do that, fix some of our psychic problems, and lower points on most troops by 2 and we are in the ballpark again
GK Interceptors currently do work like they did in 7th, only with a better Shunt. NDKs need their Personal Teleportor to work the same way Interceptors do.
(a) Nemesis Force Sword: +1 save, +1 invuln in melee (5+ if don't have one)
(b) Nemesis Force Halberd: AP-3, up from AP-2, and strength +2, up from +1
(c) Nemesis Falchions: +2 attacks, up from +1
(d) Nemesis Daemon Hammer: No penalty to hit, strength +5, AP-4, 3 damage.
(a) Storm Bolter: Replace with Grey Knights Stormbolter, which is strength 5. Against daemons, it ignores invulnerable saves, but stays AP-.
(d) Incinerators: Change to 12" range.
(c) 2CP. When a unit with the Grey Knights keyword is slain by a unit with the daemon keyword, you may set it back up as though it has arrived from deep strike. This does not cost reinforcements.
You had some good ideas but I’ll pick these out as very much over the top. Frightfully so in a couple of cases.
The Nemesis Force Sword is fine as is, and reasonably balanced against the current Halberd. The Halberd might be slightly better in the same way that a Power Axe is slightly better than a Power Sword, and the Axe is slightly more expensive, so making the Halberd slightly more expensive than the Sword would balance those two weapons against each other. Those two weapons currently do exactly what they should - solid Marine Melee weapons with a higher damage due to their Force nature. Their combat power relative to other Marines is exactly where it should be; if there’s still a problem, then it’s a structural problem to do with Marines, not GK. The solution to that is not to make GK into Custodes, which is what your Halberd profile is doing.
The biggest problem those two weapons have is the existence of Falchions, which are just way too good since they represent either a 100% or 50% increase in output for 1 and 2 Attack models. I’d say the solution is either to up the Falchions’ point cost relative to the other two, or to reduce it to AP-1. This would make the three basic Nemesis weapons at least in the same ballpark balance-wise even if they’re not perfect.
What I’ve done there is actually nerf two of the three weapons (+ 1-2 points on the Halberd, dropped 1 AP on the Falchions). That might seem like I’m heading in the wrong direction, but what it actually does is just even the keel of the three weapons relative to one another. If they’re all roughly equal, it gives you the leeway to buff the army in other ways. It means you can give GK something like a power to add 2” to their charges without making it busted on Falchions but useless on Swords. Right the ship before giving it more cannons or some of them will shoot into the water while others fire into the air.
Your Hammer profile is the one I’m going to call out as frightfully over the top. You should know that it is. It’s the sort of weapon I used to make up when I was a ten year old: all of the most powerful stats with no drawbacks. That one’s a complete go-back-to-the-drawing-board.
There’s no need to make Storm Bolters Str 5. They’re an effective weapon as is. There’s no reason for them to be better than all other similar Imperial guns just because. Your ignoring Invul saves on Daemons has some merit as the weapon is AP-, but I’d actually make that a faction rule rather than a weapon rule and have it affect all Bolt weapons, Psilencers, Psycannons and Incincerators. As far as I’m aware most Daemons have an armour save so while your heavier weapons might completely ignore their saves, for most weapons it’ll just reduce their save by a point or two.
Incinerators are perfectly fine relative to other flamer weapons. Extending their range to 12” subverts the whole flamer mechanic that stops you Deep Striking and using them and allows units to charge from outside their range. If a core mechanic of the game doesn’t work, the solution is not to just keep making things sidestep the mechanic. It’s the sign of a bad rule if everything requires an exception or subversion gimmick.
Lastly, that Stratagem is just petty. It was a bad idea to give it to Daemons, lorewise it makes zero sense for GK to get it, and it just comes across as ‘they got something that hurts me so I should get the same thing to hurt them’.
Other than that I’m broadly onboard with the rest.
Anyway about psychic power we should have access to Librarium and have a second expanded santa list, taken from old 5 ed. powers like:
1) MIGHT OF TITAN (cast on 6+, a GK unit within 12" can reroll 1s to wound in CQC)
2) WARP QUAKE (cast on 8+, D3 mortals to enemies arriving from Tac Reserves within 18")
3) HOLOCAUST (cast on 8+, roll for each model in the closest unit within 12" and deal 1 mortal for every 6+, rerolling misses if the casting result was 12+)
4) QUICKSILVER (cast on 5+, a GK unit within 12" always strikes first in CQC for the remainder of the round)
5) THE SHROUDING (cast on 6+, -1 to hit each GK unit within 6")
6) DARK EXCOMMUNICATION (cast on 6+, a DAEMON unit within 12" must reroll successful saves)
(all these are ideas from a friend of mine)
Moreover GK should have ORDO MALLEUS keyword. This would be great. And fluffy
All of this is really good. It’s not crazy OP, and it fills some gaps that GK struggle with like screening against Deep Strike and rerolling wounds. Great job.
cuda1179 wrote: Personal teleporters need to work the way they did back in 7th. Basically a jump pack without making the unit jump infantry, while also having that super Shunt move. It would make Dreadknights great again.
I think the average GK Strike Squad member need veteran stats.
Do that, fix some of our psychic problems, and lower points on most troops by 2 and we are in the ballpark again
GK Interceptors currently do work like they did in 7th, only with a better Shunt. NDKs need their Personal Teleportor to work the same way Interceptors do.
SJ
Only they are way worse then they were in 7th. They take powers from other guys if they do cast them, they lost a ton of their power in CC from losing the extra attack on the charge and prefered enemy deamons is only good in the fight phase now, ect, ect.
cuda1179 wrote: Personal teleporters need to work the way they did back in 7th. Basically a jump pack without making the unit jump infantry, while also having that super Shunt move. It would make Dreadknights great again.
I think the average GK Strike Squad member need veteran stats.
Do that, fix some of our psychic problems, and lower points on most troops by 2 and we are in the ballpark again
GK Interceptors currently do work like they did in 7th, only with a better Shunt. NDKs need their Personal Teleportor to work the same way Interceptors do.
SJ
Only they are way worse then they were in 7th. They take powers from other guys if they do cast them, they lost a ton of their power in CC from losing the extra attack on the charge and prefered enemy deamons is only good in the fight phase now, ect, ect.
What are you talking about? Purifiers lost their 2nd attack, Interceptors always had 1 attack base. And Shunt is currently a once per game Gate that isn’t a Gate or a power, which is better than the 30” Shunt they use to have. Sure, the Psychic Phase in 8th sucks, but that’s an issue with the game not the unit.
cuda1179 wrote: Personal teleporters need to work the way they did back in 7th. Basically a jump pack without making the unit jump infantry, while also having that super Shunt move. It would make Dreadknights great again.
I think the average GK Strike Squad member need veteran stats.
Do that, fix some of our psychic problems, and lower points on most troops by 2 and we are in the ballpark again
GK Interceptors currently do work like they did in 7th, only with a better Shunt. NDKs need their Personal Teleportor to work the same way Interceptors do.
SJ
Only they are way worse then they were in 7th. They take powers from other guys if they do cast them, they lost a ton of their power in CC from losing the extra attack on the charge and prefered enemy deamons is only good in the fight phase now, ect, ect.
What are you talking about? Purifiers lost their 2nd attack, Interceptors always had 1 attack base. And Shunt is currently a once per game Gate that isn’t a Gate or a power, which is better than the 30” Shunt they use to have. Sure, the Psychic Phase in 8th sucks, but that’s an issue with the game not the unit.
SJ
In 7th edition when you charged you got an extra attack. A lot of grey knights power in CC came from the extra attack you got when you made a change in 7th. And that 30" shunt to a deep strike is debatable in trade value since with the deep strike you have to be 9" away from stuff so it is not as good for last second contesting. Also the change to psychic phase has a pretty big impact on them compared how they worked in 7th as well as a ton of the core rules that the GK relied on to preform getting changed.
You had some good ideas but I’ll pick these out as very much over the top. Frightfully so in a couple of cases.
The Nemesis Force Sword is fine as is, and reasonably balanced against the current Halberd. The Halberd might be slightly better in the same way that a Power Axe is slightly better than a Power Sword, and the Axe is slightly more expensive, so making the Halberd slightly more expensive than the Sword would balance those two weapons against each other. Those two weapons currently do exactly what they should - solid Marine Melee weapons with a higher damage due to their Force nature. Their combat power relative to other Marines is exactly where it should be; if there’s still a problem, then it’s a structural problem to do with Marines, not GK. The solution to that is not to make GK into Custodes, which is what your Halberd profile is doing.
The biggest problem those two weapons have is the existence of Falchions, which are just way too good since they represent either a 100% or 50% increase in output for 1 and 2 Attack models. I’d say the solution is either to up the Falchions’ point cost relative to the other two, or to reduce it to AP-1. This would make the three basic Nemesis weapons at least in the same ballpark balance-wise even if they’re not perfect.
What I’ve done there is actually nerf two of the three weapons (+ 1-2 points on the Halberd, dropped 1 AP on the Falchions). That might seem like I’m heading in the wrong direction, but what it actually does is just even the keel of the three weapons relative to one another. If they’re all roughly equal, it gives you the leeway to buff the army in other ways. It means you can give GK something like a power to add 2” to their charges without making it busted on Falchions but useless on Swords. Right the ship before giving it more cannons or some of them will shoot into the water while others fire into the air.
Your Hammer profile is the one I’m going to call out as frightfully over the top. You should know that it is. It’s the sort of weapon I used to make up when I was a ten year old: all of the most powerful stats with no drawbacks. That one’s a complete go-back-to-the-drawing-board.
There’s no need to make Storm Bolters Str 5. They’re an effective weapon as is. There’s no reason for them to be better than all other similar Imperial guns just because. Your ignoring Invul saves on Daemons has some merit as the weapon is AP-, but I’d actually make that a faction rule rather than a weapon rule and have it affect all Bolt weapons, Psilencers, Psycannons and Incincerators. As far as I’m aware most Daemons have an armour save so while your heavier weapons might completely ignore their saves, for most weapons it’ll just reduce their save by a point or two.
Incinerators are perfectly fine relative to other flamer weapons. Extending their range to 12” subverts the whole flamer mechanic that stops you Deep Striking and using them and allows units to charge from outside their range. If a core mechanic of the game doesn’t work, the solution is not to just keep making things sidestep the mechanic. It’s the sign of a bad rule if everything requires an exception or subversion gimmick.
Other than that I’m broadly onboard with the rest.
All of this is really good. It’s not crazy OP, and it fills some gaps that GK struggle with like screening against Deep Strike and rerolling wounds. Great job.
I dont know dude, you say a str 5 stormbolters is a too OP basic weapon. My opponents basic weapons on troops are all str 5-8 shot once or twice, and suffer no negative bonuses for moving . The heavy weapons GK have don't seem to worth taking. A 12" incinerator could at least be used with deep strike, the way he costs now and with the range he has no one will ever take them.
I also don't understand the weapon nerf you propose. First GK seem to be a realy bad army, nerfing the few ok things in it won't help them at all., and second the GK problem is not falchions being too Good, they could give 6 attack each, and not much would change, because GK just melt before they actually get to reach melee.
And finaly on good stuff being gimmiks, well as it so happens in the few good armies I played, all the good stuff was gimmiks. Being able to shot twice per turn or in my own turn. Ton of psychic powers and re-rollable +3 saves on primarchs. Now am not saying GK couldn't be an army that is good, but without gimmiks. But the only way I can think that could work, is RAW stats. +2" to movment, base t5-6 and 3 wounds stock, but that would just turn GK in to foot custodes.
cuda1179 wrote: It would make Dreadknights great again.
LOVE YOU
w1zard wrote:
SHUPPET wrote: Oh, I have no doubt GK players know their army. But someone that knows the most doesn't always mean they will give the fairest opinions on it. That being said, I can easily imagine how frustrating it is. I'd be really annoyed if I mained the army, especially at a time when the game is more fun than ever. Got my fingers crossed for you guys getting some good improvements somewhere down the line, even if GW only gives you some bandaid fixes to some units so that you guys can at least play 8th until they give you a new book.
I hate to sound negative, but it probably won't happen. The codex is already released and at this point they are only going to adjust points. GK are well and truly fethed until 9th, which won't come out until 2020 at the earliest. Honestly I feel sorry for GK players, as a guard player who had to deal with 6th and 7th editions where we were utter garbage I know how they feel.
I think that we'll have more that one codex for some armies during 8th edition.
I dont know dude, you say a str 5 stormbolters is a too OP basic weapon. My opponents basic weapons on troops are all str 5-8 shot once or twice, and suffer no negative bonuses for moving . The heavy weapons GK have don't seem to worth taking. A 12" incinerator could at least be used with deep strike, the way he costs now and with the range he has no one will ever take them.
I also don't understand the weapon nerf you propose. First GK seem to be a realy bad army, nerfing the few ok things in it won't help them at all., and second the GK problem is not falchions being too Good, they could give 6 attack each, and not much would change, because GK just melt before they actually get to reach melee.
And finaly on good stuff being gimmiks, well as it so happens in the few good armies I played, all the good stuff was gimmiks. Being able to shot twice per turn or in my own turn. Ton of psychic powers and re-rollable +3 saves on primarchs. Now am not saying GK couldn't be an army that is good, but without gimmiks. But the only way I can think that could work, is RAW stats. +2" to movment, base t5-6 and 3 wounds stock, but that would just turn GK in to foot custodes.
I’m interested to know what armies you’re facing that have Str 5-8 basic troop weapons? Tau certainly do, but that’s Tau’s thing - they’re the most specialised shooting army, they don’t participate in the Psychic or Assault Phases, so they have to have by far and away the best guns. A Str 5 Stormbolter fires 4 Str 5 shots hitting on 3s at 12”. A Tau Pulse Rifle fires 2 Str 5 shots hitting on 4s at 15”. If your sidearm is better than Tau’s rifles, you’ve gone very wrong. Indeed, a normal Stormbolter is already better than a Tau Pulse Rifle, it certainly doesn’t need to be any better. The problem is not their basic guns.
Is the problem their heavier guns? Not likely, considering GK are a medium-to-short range shooting and melee army, but let’s look at it anyway. I haven’t disagreed with your changes to the Psycannon or Psilencer. The only disagreement I had was with upping the range on the Incinerator. The Incinerator is currently doing exactly what it says on the tin: a Heavy Flamer with +1 Str due to its psychic fire. It should probably hurt Daemons more, but that ties into my suggestion about their ignoring Daemons’ Invulnerable Saves. So long as it’s approriately costed relative to the Heavy Flamer, the Incinerator is where it should be. If it isn’t an effective weapon, the problem is not the Incinerator, but the Flamer rules. I definitely agree the flamer rules are undercooked, but the solution is not to fix this one particular flamer that has no reason to be different, but rather to fix the core flamer rules. If flamer weapons became 2D3 shots + D3 for every 5 models or something, the Incincerator would be dragged up with it.
The weapon nerf I propose is to fix the internal balance within the Codex, not the external balance between GK and other Codexes. A mate who hates doing mathhammer asked me the other day what weapons he should put on his GK. I looked into it and my answer was basically ‘Falchions. Maybe some Halberds or Hammers on Paladins.’ That’s not right. Every weapon should be a viable option. So I suggested a small nerf to two weapons to make the three closer to one another. If you don’t do this before trying to adjust external balance, you’ll either:
- power up GK until Falchions are good, Halberds are bad and Swords are terrible
- power up GK until Falchions are overpowered, Halberds are good and Swords are bad
- power up GK until Falchions are insane, Halberds are overpowered and Swords are good
See the problem? You need to fix the foundation first. Now, you could go the other way by buffing Halberds a little bit and Swords a lot so they’re both as good as Halberds, but then you just end up in a ridiculous arms race. That very arms race is why Power Armour is now laughable - since everything kept getting powered up, a T4 3+ 1-Wound model just can’t cut it anymore. This is not the direction to go. More to the point, Nemesis Power Swords already outpunch everybody who isn’t a Custode, which is as it should be. The problem is not the strength of their melee weapons.
Yes GK just melt, and you’ve hit the nail on the head with your last line: the only way to fix them is raw stats. If you power them up to Custodes level you have to cost them like Custodes. Then you haven’t fixed them, you’ve just moved the target and offended the lore to do it. Thing is, GK’s fragility and low number of attacks problem isn’t unique to GK - it’s a structural issue common to all Marines. As I said above, their resilience just won’t cut it nowadays, and they are stuck with a profile that was designed around their getting +1 Attack when charging.
My solution for this whole edition has been to fix the Marine profile by removing the ‘Primaris/miniMarine’ distinction entirely. Give every single Marine non-Primaris Infantry model the +1 Wound and Attack Primaris have, and get rid of Primaris’ baffling transport restrictions. Then give them a very small points increase, maybe larger for already powerful units like Berserkers. In one fell swoop you’d just about fix Power and Terminator Armoured Marines of every kind, including GK. From there it’s just smaller tweaks like helping GK out with their psychic powers.
Oh and apologies for coming on strong about your proposed Hammer profile. I thought I was replying to someone else, who should definitely know better. If you’re new you get a pass for making something too strong, but that profile definitely needed a rethink from the ground up.
(a) Nemesis Force Sword: +1 save, +1 invuln in melee (5+ if don't have one)
(b) Nemesis Force Halberd: AP-3, up from AP-2, and strength +2, up from +1
(c) Nemesis Falchions: +2 attacks, up from +1
(d) Nemesis Daemon Hammer: No penalty to hit, strength +5, AP-4, 3 damage.
(a) Storm Bolter: Replace with Grey Knights Stormbolter, which is strength 5. Against daemons, it ignores invulnerable saves, but stays AP-.
(d) Incinerators: Change to 12" range.
(c) 2CP. When a unit with the Grey Knights keyword is slain by a unit with the daemon keyword, you may set it back up as though it has arrived from deep strike. This does not cost reinforcements.
You had some good ideas but I’ll pick these out as very much over the top. Frightfully so in a couple of cases.
The Nemesis Force Sword is fine as is, and reasonably balanced against the current Halberd. The Halberd might be slightly better in the same way that a Power Axe is slightly better than a Power Sword, and the Axe is slightly more expensive, so making the Halberd slightly more expensive than the Sword would balance those two weapons against each other. Those two weapons currently do exactly what they should - solid Marine Melee weapons with a higher damage due to their Force nature. Their combat power relative to other Marines is exactly where it should be; if there’s still a problem, then it’s a structural problem to do with Marines, not GK. The solution to that is not to make GK into Custodes, which is what your Halberd profile is doing.
The biggest problem those two weapons have is the existence of Falchions, which are just way too good since they represent either a 100% or 50% increase in output for 1 and 2 Attack models. I’d say the solution is either to up the Falchions’ point cost relative to the other two, or to reduce it to AP-1. This would make the three basic Nemesis weapons at least in the same ballpark balance-wise even if they’re not perfect.
What I’ve done there is actually nerf two of the three weapons (+ 1-2 points on the Halberd, dropped 1 AP on the Falchions). That might seem like I’m heading in the wrong direction, but what it actually does is just even the keel of the three weapons relative to one another. If they’re all roughly equal, it gives you the leeway to buff the army in other ways. It means you can give GK something like a power to add 2” to their charges without making it busted on Falchions but useless on Swords. Right the ship before giving it more cannons or some of them will shoot into the water while others fire into the air.
Your Hammer profile is the one I’m going to call out as frightfully over the top. You should know that it is. It’s the sort of weapon I used to make up when I was a ten year old: all of the most powerful stats with no drawbacks. That one’s a complete go-back-to-the-drawing-board.
There’s no need to make Storm Bolters Str 5. They’re an effective weapon as is. There’s no reason for them to be better than all other similar Imperial guns just because. Your ignoring Invul saves on Daemons has some merit as the weapon is AP-, but I’d actually make that a faction rule rather than a weapon rule and have it affect all Bolt weapons, Psilencers, Psycannons and Incincerators. As far as I’m aware most Daemons have an armour save so while your heavier weapons might completely ignore their saves, for most weapons it’ll just reduce their save by a point or two.
Incinerators are perfectly fine relative to other flamer weapons. Extending their range to 12” subverts the whole flamer mechanic that stops you Deep Striking and using them and allows units to charge from outside their range. If a core mechanic of the game doesn’t work, the solution is not to just keep making things sidestep the mechanic. It’s the sign of a bad rule if everything requires an exception or subversion gimmick.
Lastly, that Stratagem is just petty. It was a bad idea to give it to Daemons, lorewise it makes zero sense for GK to get it, and it just comes across as ‘they got something that hurts me so I should get the same thing to hurt them’.
Other than that I’m broadly onboard with the rest.
Anyway about psychic power we should have access to Librarium and have a second expanded santa list, taken from old 5 ed. powers like:
1) MIGHT OF TITAN (cast on 6+, a GK unit within 12" can reroll 1s to wound in CQC)
2) WARP QUAKE (cast on 8+, D3 mortals to enemies arriving from Tac Reserves within 18")
3) HOLOCAUST (cast on 8+, roll for each model in the closest unit within 12" and deal 1 mortal for every 6+, rerolling misses if the casting result was 12+)
4) QUICKSILVER (cast on 5+, a GK unit within 12" always strikes first in CQC for the remainder of the round)
5) THE SHROUDING (cast on 6+, -1 to hit each GK unit within 6")
6) DARK EXCOMMUNICATION (cast on 6+, a DAEMON unit within 12" must reroll successful saves)
(all these are ideas from a friend of mine)
Moreover GK should have ORDO MALLEUS keyword. This would be great. And fluffy
All of this is really good. It’s not crazy OP, and it fills some gaps that GK struggle with like screening against Deep Strike and rerolling wounds. Great job.
Nearly all of my suggestions were things that GK had at one point in time. By the time i got to command abilities i was just having fun. Obviously reviving GK units when slain by a daemon is ridiculous, and i put that in there because Daemons got it, and that is just beyond dumb.
If anything, that strategy should be just the opposite. You can revive a unit unless it was destroyed by a GK model. At least that would be fluffy in that the GK would presumably "seal" the daemon.
Quickjager wrote: They did Slayer, are you seriously telling ME, THIS GUY, I don't remember my codex right.
And it was what they essentially had last edition because the powers were relatively easy to get off it had like something of a 60% chance to get both off. Also they could have 3 attacks last edition so you can argue they were even BETTER.
Also if you read Marmatags suggestions he was suggesting off a earlier post that they get the S5 based off a pre-game stratagem where if they pay a CP cost all eligible weapons would get psybolts.
If you dig further into the post you can see he is just joking about or parodying half the rules. Like the if Grey Knights keyword is slain by Daemons it may return at no cost.
I meant to say the Index. I KNOW Purifiers had two attacks. That was one of my primary complaints with the codex being released: they didn't fix that. You'll have seen that plastered in the Grey Knights Tactica thread, as I'm sure you've frequented there as much as I have.
Also you're not special. I've got an old Metal force still locked in a storage unit in Vermont of about 2000 points for the time (4th edition). I know the army as well, and I don't care if you're trying to defend the poster as "partly joking". It wasn't a good joke and an even worse suggestion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.
I've used the army. Most of the suggestions here are terrible trust me.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: If anything, that strategy should be just the opposite. You can revive a unit unless it was destroyed by a GK model. At least that would be fluffy in that the GK would presumably "seal" the daemon.
This right here, especially with the big nasties GUO, daemon princes etc.
There’s no need to make Storm Bolters Str 5. They’re an effective weapon as is. There’s no reason for them to be better than all other similar Imperial guns just because. Your ignoring Invul saves on Daemons has some merit as the weapon is AP-, but I’d actually make that a faction rule rather than a weapon rule and have it affect all Bolt weapons, Psilencers, Psycannons and Incincerators. As far as I’m aware most Daemons have an armour save so while your heavier weapons might completely ignore their saves, for most weapons it’ll just reduce their save by a point or two.
Grey Knight Storm Bolters should absolutely be better than similar Imperial guns, and the reason for that is psybolt ammo. Grey Knights have had access to psybolt ammo for a long time, and it did exactly what you would expect. Provide Bolters and Heavy Bolters with a strength boost. Thats how it worked at least since 5th edition if you bought the upgrade. Changing Psybolt Ammo to a strategem was a huge punch in the face for Grey Knights. GK already have trouble generating Command Points, so every use is important, and its a 2 CP ability which is expensive to use! For how many points GKs are are paying per model its perfectly reasonable for psybolt ammo to be removed from the strategem list- and baked into the storm bolters and heavy bolters themselves.
Let me put what you said another way; "There is no need to make Sternguard Bolters 30 inch range and Ap-2. They're an effective weapon as is. There's no reason for them to be better than all similar imperial guns just because." It sounds absolutely rediculous when applied to another unit- and you can't say, "but, but, but special issue ammo!" without admitting full stop that psybolt ammo is a very good reason to give GK's +1 strength to their bolter weapons.
There’s no need to make Storm Bolters Str 5. They’re an effective weapon as is. There’s no reason for them to be better than all other similar Imperial guns just because. Your ignoring Invul saves on Daemons has some merit as the weapon is AP-, but I’d actually make that a faction rule rather than a weapon rule and have it affect all Bolt weapons, Psilencers, Psycannons and Incincerators. As far as I’m aware most Daemons have an armour save so while your heavier weapons might completely ignore their saves, for most weapons it’ll just reduce their save by a point or two.
Grey Knight Storm Bolters should absolutely be better than similar Imperial guns, and the reason for that is psybolt ammo. Grey Knights have had access to psybolt ammo for a long time, and it did exactly what you would expect. Provide Bolters and Heavy Bolters with a strength boost. Thats how it worked at least since 5th edition if you bought the upgrade. Changing Psybolt Ammo to a strategem was a huge punch in the face for Grey Knights. GK already have trouble generating Command Points, so every use is important, and its a 2 CP ability which is expensive to use! For how many points GKs are are paying per model its perfectly reasonable for psybolt ammo to be removed from the strategem list- and baked into the storm bolters and heavy bolters themselves.
Let me put what you said another way;
"There is no need to make Sternguard Bolters 30 inch range and Ap-2. They're an effective weapon as is. There's no reason for them to be better than all similar imperial guns just because."
It sounds absolutely rediculous when applied to another unit- and you can't say, "but, but, but special issue ammo!" without admitting full stop that psybolt ammo is a very good reason to give GK's +1 strength to their bolter weapons.
OR, and hear me out on this...
You just make the Strategem 1 CP to use...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also nobody ever defended the Bolter as is so using the Sternguard comparison is frankly silly.
Quickjager wrote: They did Slayer, are you seriously telling ME, THIS GUY, I don't remember my codex right.
And it was what they essentially had last edition because the powers were relatively easy to get off it had like something of a 60% chance to get both off. Also they could have 3 attacks last edition so you can argue they were even BETTER.
Also if you read Marmatags suggestions he was suggesting off a earlier post that they get the S5 based off a pre-game stratagem where if they pay a CP cost all eligible weapons would get psybolts.
If you dig further into the post you can see he is just joking about or parodying half the rules. Like the if Grey Knights keyword is slain by Daemons it may return at no cost.
I meant to say the Index. I KNOW Purifiers had two attacks. That was one of my primary complaints with the codex being released: they didn't fix that. You'll have seen that plastered in the Grey Knights Tactica thread, as I'm sure you've frequented there as much as I have.
Also you're not special. I've got an old Metal force still locked in a storage unit in Vermont of about 2000 points for the time (4th edition). I know the army as well, and I don't care if you're trying to defend the poster as "partly joking". It wasn't a good joke and an even worse suggestion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.
I've used the army. Most of the suggestions here are terrible trust me.
No gak I'm not special, but guess what I'm dealing with? And you didn't catch the jokes? No problem, I suppose it does take some levity to actually see one. At least I know you are taking this seriously lol.
But at this point I'm looking at stupid gak like kombatwombat's suggestions and I don't see you saying that isn't dumb either.
Quickjager wrote: They did Slayer, are you seriously telling ME, THIS GUY, I don't remember my codex right.
And it was what they essentially had last edition because the powers were relatively easy to get off it had like something of a 60% chance to get both off. Also they could have 3 attacks last edition so you can argue they were even BETTER.
Also if you read Marmatags suggestions he was suggesting off a earlier post that they get the S5 based off a pre-game stratagem where if they pay a CP cost all eligible weapons would get psybolts.
If you dig further into the post you can see he is just joking about or parodying half the rules. Like the if Grey Knights keyword is slain by Daemons it may return at no cost.
I meant to say the Index. I KNOW Purifiers had two attacks. That was one of my primary complaints with the codex being released: they didn't fix that. You'll have seen that plastered in the Grey Knights Tactica thread, as I'm sure you've frequented there as much as I have.
Also you're not special. I've got an old Metal force still locked in a storage unit in Vermont of about 2000 points for the time (4th edition). I know the army as well, and I don't care if you're trying to defend the poster as "partly joking". It wasn't a good joke and an even worse suggestion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.
I've used the army. Most of the suggestions here are terrible trust me.
No gak I'm not special, but guess what I'm dealing with? And you didn't catch the jokes? No problem, I suppose it does take some levity to actually see one. At least I know you are taking this seriously lol.
But at this point I'm looking at stupid gak like kombatwombat's suggestions and I don't see you saying that isn't dumb either.
I didn't read his proposed fixes, so I can't comment on them. If you'll quote them I will say why they're bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll also plan a thread for the Proposed Rules subforum. I like a few of the suggestions here (there was a Psyker table that really caught my eye here).
I mean who in the world would agree that Grey Knights need a internal balancing to remove the one thing that you can objectively look at and say, "Hey that is pretty good".
I get he is saying that alongside the primaris fix, but that kind of fix is not going to happen. GW will never in this edition or next edition, retroactively apply a stat upgrade to old models.
Especially an upgrade that is the key selling point of the new model line they are trying to push.
Quickjager wrote: I mean who in the world would agree that Grey Knights need a internal balancing to remove the one thing that you can objectively look at and say, "Hey that is pretty good".
I get he is saying that alongside the primaris fix, but that kind of fix is not going to happen. GW will never in this edition or next edition, retroactively apply a stat upgrade to old models.
Especially an upgrade that is the key selling point of the new model line they are trying to push.
Oh, I agree just giving the Primaris statline is stupid. If I had seen that, I'd have said something. I can only quote so many people on this phone though before I forget stuff and go back to napping.
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Danarc wrote: It's useless anyway. sternguard veterans have their ammo, DW too. Why we can't?
That's the primary gimmick and feature of the army, whereas this isn't a main focus for Grey Knights.
Marmatag wrote: Slayer, post your ITC profile. I'd like to see the pedigree of the man who has designated himself gatekeeper for all GK proposed changes.
LOL at the appeal to authority.
If it matters at all I had local toppings in the Bay area during early 4th using Necrons. Never #1 but I did for a young dude at the time.
You definitely can't be it as you think your changes are balanced in any way. At minimum I would encourage you to read the thread once done.
Marmatag wrote: Slayer, post your ITC profile. I'd like to see the pedigree of the man who has designated himself gatekeeper for all GK proposed changes.
LOL at the appeal to authority.
If it matters at all I had local toppings in the Bay area during early 4th using Necrons. Never #1 but I did for a young dude at the time.
You definitely can't be it as you think your changes are balanced in any way. At minimum I would encourage you to read the thread once done.
It's not an appeal to authority. I would suggest you take a quick sojourn over to Google.
You haven't actually made a single argument, you've just said, "these are bad suggestions. Trust me."
Okay. Since your argument requires we trust you, maybe you could do something to show us why.
-No math hammer -No meaningful comparison to other codexes -No explanation of what GK role is -Casually throws out 2+ WS which shows no understanding of current GK problems
There is no reason to trust you. Cheers.
Further you say the suggestions are obviously bad. If it's so incredibly obvious, you should have no difficulty proving it. Let's rewind to my original statement of what (I feel) the problem of Grey Knights is.
Once we have debated and agree on the problem of GK and their primary use cases, a more meaningful balance discussion can follow. I would suggest (as i did earlier) you frame the use case for Grey Knights and also detail their balance issues at a high level. For instance, I would say mobility is a huge problem for Grey Knights. If you can't figure it out, let me know, i'll create a template for you.
Marmatag wrote: Slayer, post your ITC profile. I'd like to see the pedigree of the man who has designated himself gatekeeper for all GK proposed changes.
LOL at the appeal to authority.
If it matters at all I had local toppings in the Bay area during early 4th using Necrons. Never #1 but I did for a young dude at the time.
You definitely can't be it as you think your changes are balanced in any way. At minimum I would encourage you to read the thread once done.
It's not an appeal to authority. I would suggest you take a quick sojourn over to Google.
You haven't actually made a single argument, you've just said, "these are bad suggestions. Trust me."
Okay. Since your argument requires we trust you, maybe you could do something to show us why.
-No math hammer
-No meaningful comparison to other codexes
-No explanation of what GK role is
-Casually throws out 2+ WS which shows no understanding of current GK problems
There is no reason to trust you. Cheers.
Further you say the suggestions are obviously bad. If it's so incredibly obvious, you should have no difficulty proving it. Let's rewind to my original statement of what (I feel) the problem of Grey Knights is.
Once we have debated and agree on the problem of GK and their primary use cases, a more meaningful balance discussion can follow. I would suggest (as i did earlier) you frame the use case for Grey Knights and also detail their balance issues at a high level. For instance, I would say mobility is a huge problem for Grey Knights. If you can't figure it out, let me know, i'll create a template for you.
I already told you why they were bad suggestions. You. Want. To. Give. A. 20. Point. Model. A. Custodes. Halberd. And. Fire. Warrior. Shooting.
It's like a 10 year old wanted to make a list for improvements.
We already know that mobility is an issue with the army. That's not a unit issue though, that's an army issue. That's something that's worked on outside the unit profiles. Giving Terminators 10" movement (I'm surprised you didn't suggest it) wouldn't fix the Land Raider as a delivery platform nor does it fix the fact you don't even really want a Rhino, and that you're essentially stuck with the same Warlord trait if you want dudes to be in melee. And when the army even gets to melee it isn't even really good at it. Yet at the same time you see outrageous suggestions for Terminator based units like giving them the same number of attacks as a Custodes and making them as tough as a Custodes and making them an actual Custodes in general, on top of some suggestions not scaling appropriately (Blightlord Terminators do not need 3 wounds and treating all 2 damage weapons as 1 damage, so what else can you do for Terminator units?)
I have many proposed fixes but of course that's not gonna be done on this phone.
Gentlemen calm down, why are people even bringing up ITC pedigree. There is no reason for there to be gatekeeping on how to IMPROVE Grey Knights, because there is no real way to mess them up more; just disagreement on how much to move them up.
There are easy to identify key issues with the Grey Knights. We have been over this, since there is no way in hell any of the playtesters will ever listen to the community and most of them seem to be completely out of touch on how Grey Knights should play (you know who I am talking about, a certain "you're playing GK wrong playtester) we should do the easiest thing and simply keep up the pressure vocally through emails, facebook, or even talking to store managers. Just bring up how GK are no present in any tourney scene, how Custodes are just better for less points etc.
I already told you why they were bad suggestions. You. Want. To. Give. A. 20. Point. Model. A. Custodes. Halberd. And. Fire. Warrior. Shooting.
It's like a 10 year old wanted to make a list for improvements.
We already know that mobility is an issue with the army. That's not a unit issue though, that's an army issue. That's something that's worked on outside the unit profiles. Giving Terminators 10" movement (I'm surprised you didn't suggest it) wouldn't fix the Land Raider as a delivery platform nor does it fix the fact you don't even really want a Rhino, and that you're essentially stuck with the same Warlord trait if you want dudes to be in melee. And when the army even gets to melee it isn't even really good at it. Yet at the same time you see outrageous suggestions for Terminator based units like giving them the same number of attacks as a Custodes and making them as tough as a Custodes and making them an actual Custodes in general, on top of some suggestions not scaling appropriately (Blightlord Terminators do not need 3 wounds and treating all 2 damage weapons as 1 damage, so what else can you do for Terminator units?)
I have many proposed fixes but of course that's not gonna be done on this phone.
So the fix is land raiders? Aren't GK land raiders even worse then the normal marines ones, and normal marines don't seem to be using them at all.
The only unit comperable to terminators stats, that seem to be played are jetbike custodes, and they have better weapons, both shoting and melee, and movment that isn't even comparable to a footslogging terminator. Not to mention the cost, a unit of 5 termintors in a land raider costs a lot more then a unit of custodes jetbikes, but is a lot less efficient.
Quickjager wrote: Gentlemen calm down, why are people even bringing up ITC pedigree. There is no reason for there to be gatekeeping on how to IMPROVE Grey Knights, because there is no real way to mess them up more; just disagreement on how much to move them up.
There are easy to identify key issues with the Grey Knights. We have been over this, since there is no way in hell any of the playtesters will ever listen to the community and most of them seem to be completely out of touch on how Grey Knights should play (you know who I am talking about, a certain "you're playing GK wrong playtester) we should do the easiest thing and simply keep up the pressure vocally through emails, facebook, or even talking to store managers. Just bring up how GK are no present in any tourney scene, how Custodes are just better for less points etc.
You can say Reece's name. That statement was a slap in the face to GK players that's for sure.
I already told you why they were bad suggestions. You. Want. To. Give. A. 20. Point. Model. A. Custodes. Halberd. And. Fire. Warrior. Shooting.
It's like a 10 year old wanted to make a list for improvements.
We already know that mobility is an issue with the army. That's not a unit issue though, that's an army issue. That's something that's worked on outside the unit profiles. Giving Terminators 10" movement (I'm surprised you didn't suggest it) wouldn't fix the Land Raider as a delivery platform nor does it fix the fact you don't even really want a Rhino, and that you're essentially stuck with the same Warlord trait if you want dudes to be in melee. And when the army even gets to melee it isn't even really good at it. Yet at the same time you see outrageous suggestions for Terminator based units like giving them the same number of attacks as a Custodes and making them as tough as a Custodes and making them an actual Custodes in general, on top of some suggestions not scaling appropriately (Blightlord Terminators do not need 3 wounds and treating all 2 damage weapons as 1 damage, so what else can you do for Terminator units?)
I have many proposed fixes but of course that's not gonna be done on this phone.
So the fix is land raiders? Aren't GK land raiders even worse then the normal marines ones, and normal marines don't seem to be using them at all.
The only unit comperable to terminators stats, that seem to be played are jetbike custodes, and they have better weapons, both shoting and melee, and movment that isn't even comparable to a footslogging terminator. Not to mention the cost, a unit of 5 termintors in a land raider costs a lot more then a unit of custodes jetbikes, but is a lot less efficient.
I'm saying Land Raiders are part of the problem as all units need to be viable.
Also I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Custodes Jetbikes are underpriced so...
Marmatag wrote: Slayer, post your ITC profile. I'd like to see the pedigree of the man who has designated himself gatekeeper for all GK proposed changes.
LOL at the appeal to authority.
If it matters at all I had local toppings in the Bay area during early 4th using Necrons. Never #1 but I did for a young dude at the time.
You definitely can't be it as you think your changes are balanced in any way. At minimum I would encourage you to read the thread once done.
It's not an appeal to authority. I would suggest you take a quick sojourn over to Google.
You haven't actually made a single argument, you've just said, "these are bad suggestions. Trust me."
Okay. Since your argument requires we trust you, maybe you could do something to show us why.
-No math hammer -No meaningful comparison to other codexes -No explanation of what GK role is -Casually throws out 2+ WS which shows no understanding of current GK problems
There is no reason to trust you. Cheers.
Further you say the suggestions are obviously bad. If it's so incredibly obvious, you should have no difficulty proving it. Let's rewind to my original statement of what (I feel) the problem of Grey Knights is.
Once we have debated and agree on the problem of GK and their primary use cases, a more meaningful balance discussion can follow. I would suggest (as i did earlier) you frame the use case for Grey Knights and also detail their balance issues at a high level. For instance, I would say mobility is a huge problem for Grey Knights. If you can't figure it out, let me know, i'll create a template for you.
I already told you why they were bad suggestions. You. Want. To. Give. A. 20. Point. Model. A. Custodes. Halberd. And. Fire. Warrior. Shooting.
It's like a 10 year old wanted to make a list for improvements.
We already know that mobility is an issue with the army. That's not a unit issue though, that's an army issue. That's something that's worked on outside the unit profiles. Giving Terminators 10" movement (I'm surprised you didn't suggest it) wouldn't fix the Land Raider as a delivery platform nor does it fix the fact you don't even really want a Rhino, and that you're essentially stuck with the same Warlord trait if you want dudes to be in melee. And when the army even gets to melee it isn't even really good at it. Yet at the same time you see outrageous suggestions for Terminator based units like giving them the same number of attacks as a Custodes and making them as tough as a Custodes and making them an actual Custodes in general, on top of some suggestions not scaling appropriately (Blightlord Terminators do not need 3 wounds and treating all 2 damage weapons as 1 damage, so what else can you do for Terminator units?)
I have many proposed fixes but of course that's not gonna be done on this phone.
I don't see the problem in giving them Custodes level halberds and strength 5 shooting. They don't have the durability and flexibility of Custodes, and they don't have the range or synergy of Firewarriors.
You need to do better than this, frankly, if you're going to criticize. And calling me a 10 year old doesn't change the fact that you haven't said anything with substance. Fire warriors have strength 5 guns. Yes, this is true. So what? Custodes and Fire Warriors would still both be superior to Grey Knights infantry with just this change for a host of reasons.
I did not suggest making them as tough as Custodes. You seem to be fixated on the idea that if Grey Knights improve they're somehow stepping on Custodes toes. Can't get better weapons. Can't get better mobility. Can't get more toughness. Can't get better invulns. Can't get more attacks. Why would I propose giving terminators a 10" move? That makes no sense. You would be keen to notice that almost all the fixes i proposed would be Grey Knights specific, and would not overall destabilize the game. Grey Knights could easily achieve mobility through psychic powers, there are massive precedents set here.
You are seriously looking at a unit like its entirety is boiled down into one specific stat, in a vacuum.
You seem to be able to type out long rage paragraphs just fine. I guess your phone just can't handle a meaningful discussion.
Marmatag wrote:Slayer, post your ITC profile. I'd like to see the pedigree of the man who has designated himself gatekeeper for all GK proposed changes.
I don't necessarily agree with slayerfan, but this is the most embarrassing way to try win an argument. I hope I don't have to spell out why.
Marmatag wrote: Slayer, post your ITC profile. I'd like to see the pedigree of the man who has designated himself gatekeeper for all GK proposed changes.
LOL at the appeal to authority.
If it matters at all I had local toppings in the Bay area during early 4th using Necrons. Never #1 but I did for a young dude at the time.
You definitely can't be it as you think your changes are balanced in any way. At minimum I would encourage you to read the thread once done.
It's not an appeal to authority. I would suggest you take a quick sojourn over to Google.
You haven't actually made a single argument, you've just said, "these are bad suggestions. Trust me."
Okay. Since your argument requires we trust you, maybe you could do something to show us why.
-No math hammer
-No meaningful comparison to other codexes
-No explanation of what GK role is
-Casually throws out 2+ WS which shows no understanding of current GK problems
There is no reason to trust you. Cheers.
Further you say the suggestions are obviously bad. If it's so incredibly obvious, you should have no difficulty proving it. Let's rewind to my original statement of what (I feel) the problem of Grey Knights is.
Once we have debated and agree on the problem of GK and their primary use cases, a more meaningful balance discussion can follow. I would suggest (as i did earlier) you frame the use case for Grey Knights and also detail their balance issues at a high level. For instance, I would say mobility is a huge problem for Grey Knights. If you can't figure it out, let me know, i'll create a template for you.
I already told you why they were bad suggestions. You. Want. To. Give. A. 20. Point. Model. A. Custodes. Halberd. And. Fire. Warrior. Shooting.
It's like a 10 year old wanted to make a list for improvements.
We already know that mobility is an issue with the army. That's not a unit issue though, that's an army issue. That's something that's worked on outside the unit profiles. Giving Terminators 10" movement (I'm surprised you didn't suggest it) wouldn't fix the Land Raider as a delivery platform nor does it fix the fact you don't even really want a Rhino, and that you're essentially stuck with the same Warlord trait if you want dudes to be in melee. And when the army even gets to melee it isn't even really good at it. Yet at the same time you see outrageous suggestions for Terminator based units like giving them the same number of attacks as a Custodes and making them as tough as a Custodes and making them an actual Custodes in general, on top of some suggestions not scaling appropriately (Blightlord Terminators do not need 3 wounds and treating all 2 damage weapons as 1 damage, so what else can you do for Terminator units?)
I have many proposed fixes but of course that's not gonna be done on this phone.
I don't see the problem in giving them Custodes level halberds and strength 5 shooting. They don't have the durability and flexibility of Custodes, and they don't have the range or synergy of Firewarriors.
Rapid Fire 2 at 24" is better than Rapid Fire 1 at 30", especially when you have Deep Strike. Full Stop. Those 3 wounds are also more durable to Multi-Damage shooting as well.
You aren't thinking.
Even ignore the fact that you are okay with Custodes Halberds for whatever reason. You then want Falcions to do 3 attacks total instead. So for 100 points, we get a squad with:
1. 10-20 S5 shots that ignore Invul Saves
2. 16 attacks at AP-2 doing D3 damage, or we can go with those 6 S6 AP-3 DD3 damage
You aren't scaling well. At all.
And for the record those paragraphs take a pretty darn long time to type out. I AM having meaningful discussion, but you're more fixated on making Grey Knights broken you can't take a singular ounce of criticism for ideas that are at the maturity of, yes, a 10 year old writing them out. My brother hasn't played a single game of 40k and I bet he could figure out better balancing techniques than you.
Marmatag wrote: Slayer, post your ITC profile. I'd like to see the pedigree of the man who has designated himself gatekeeper for all GK proposed changes.
LOL at the appeal to authority.
If it matters at all I had local toppings in the Bay area during early 4th using Necrons. Never #1 but I did for a young dude at the time.
You definitely can't be it as you think your changes are balanced in any way. At minimum I would encourage you to read the thread once done.
It's not an appeal to authority. I would suggest you take a quick sojourn over to Google.
You haven't actually made a single argument, you've just said, "these are bad suggestions. Trust me."
Okay. Since your argument requires we trust you, maybe you could do something to show us why.
-No math hammer
-No meaningful comparison to other codexes
-No explanation of what GK role is
-Casually throws out 2+ WS which shows no understanding of current GK problems
There is no reason to trust you. Cheers.
Further you say the suggestions are obviously bad. If it's so incredibly obvious, you should have no difficulty proving it. Let's rewind to my original statement of what (I feel) the problem of Grey Knights is.
Once we have debated and agree on the problem of GK and their primary use cases, a more meaningful balance discussion can follow. I would suggest (as i did earlier) you frame the use case for Grey Knights and also detail their balance issues at a high level. For instance, I would say mobility is a huge problem for Grey Knights. If you can't figure it out, let me know, i'll create a template for you.
I already told you why they were bad suggestions. You. Want. To. Give. A. 20. Point. Model. A. Custodes. Halberd. And. Fire. Warrior. Shooting.
It's like a 10 year old wanted to make a list for improvements.
We already know that mobility is an issue with the army. That's not a unit issue though, that's an army issue. That's something that's worked on outside the unit profiles. Giving Terminators 10" movement (I'm surprised you didn't suggest it) wouldn't fix the Land Raider as a delivery platform nor does it fix the fact you don't even really want a Rhino, and that you're essentially stuck with the same Warlord trait if you want dudes to be in melee. And when the army even gets to melee it isn't even really good at it. Yet at the same time you see outrageous suggestions for Terminator based units like giving them the same number of attacks as a Custodes and making them as tough as a Custodes and making them an actual Custodes in general, on top of some suggestions not scaling appropriately (Blightlord Terminators do not need 3 wounds and treating all 2 damage weapons as 1 damage, so what else can you do for Terminator units?)
I have many proposed fixes but of course that's not gonna be done on this phone.
I don't see the problem in giving them Custodes level halberds and strength 5 shooting. They don't have the durability and flexibility of Custodes, and they don't have the range or synergy of Firewarriors.
Rapid Fire 2 at 24" is better than Rapid Fire 1 at 30", especially when you have Deep Strike. Full Stop. Those 3 wounds are also more durable to Multi-Damage shooting as well.
You aren't thinking.
Even ignore the fact that you are okay with Custodes Halberds for whatever reason. You then want Falcions to do 3 attacks total instead. So for 100 points, we get a squad with:
1. 10-20 S5 shots that ignore Invul Saves
2. 16 attacks at AP-2 doing D3 damage, or we can go with those 6 S6 AP-3 DD3 damage
You aren't scaling well. At all.
And for the record those paragraphs take a pretty darn long time to type out. I AM having meaningful discussion, but you're more fixated on making Grey Knights broken you can't take a singular ounce of criticism for ideas that are at the maturity of, yes, a 10 year old writing them out. My brother hasn't played a single game of 40k and I bet he could figure out better balancing techniques than you.
Holy crap. That's more Dakka than a Dakkafex, which then ignores Invuls and has AP. And then quadruple the attacks, each of which hit even harder, and then with a selectable damage profile that can be swapped to anti-elite. On a unit that can be given transport options no less, and already hits from a further range. All with a better BS and WS. And all that for less points.
If that's really what we're asking for here, it's time to go back to the drawing board. As a suggestion that's just atrocious.
Rapid Fire 2 at 24" is better than Rapid Fire 1 at 30", especially when you have Deep Strike. Full Stop.
FALSE. I would much rather have rapid fire 1 at 30", for the reasons that deep strike is not nearly as good as you think it is. You want to talk about scaling? How does deep strike scale for Grey Knights? And of course you're looking at these in a vacuum, call me when Grey Knights can make use of the Greater Good, or meaningful choices for tactics.
Sure, it's a suggestion. Let's talk it through. Were these written in blood? This is the first time you've actually made an effort to discuss this, so hey, i'll take a win where i can get it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So for 100 points, we get a squad with: 1. 10-20 S5 shots that ignore Invul Saves 2. 16 attacks at AP-2 doing D3 damage, or we can go with those 6 S6 AP-3 DD3 damage
Yes, AP- guns that ignore invulnerable saves. Ignoring invulnerable saves might be too strong, but again, this would make Grey Knights actual daemon hunters. I still don't see a problem with this. Consider a squad of Harlequins. I mean honestly. Take a real look at them. Then consider the tranports they have. You think what i'm floating here is totally unbalanced, but in reality Grey Knights are so massively far behind it's not even funny.
You posted the whole profile, but let's do a comparison.
Current: 10-20 S4 shots; 11 attacks at Ap-2 doing d3 damage, improved to 10-20 S5 shots, 16 attacks at Ap-2 d3 damage. It's not like Grey Knights don't already look appealing on paper until you actually play them outside of a vacuum and you see what other armies, like Harlequins, can do.
Only in this post have you actually provided criticism i could make a discussion out of. The rest has been you being That Guy. Seriously, go read the fething thread.
Marmatag wrote:Slayer, post your ITC profile. I'd like to see the pedigree of the man who has designated himself gatekeeper for all GK proposed changes.
I don't necessarily agree with slayerfan, but this is the most embarrassing way to try win an argument. I hope I don't have to spell out why.
When your ENTIRE argument is "TRUST ME" then it's fair to ask WHY. Think.
Much of what I put in there was thrown out because Grey Knights had it or something like it in the past. This was supposed to be a jumping off point for a discussion but devolved rapidly because this guy started flinging insults and saying "UR BAD LOL, TRUST ME." I'd be happy to push the reset button and have a meaningful discussion about Grey Knights.
But let's depart from my obviously awful suggestions and talk about Slayer Fan's. So far his "big fix" to Grey Knight paladins was to give them WS2+/BS2+ (probably because he forgot the sergeant has this already). What else you got? Show me how to balance. Seriously, you talk a lot of gak pointlessly when we could be having a good chat, so let's start with your balance ideas and work from there. I'm not as petty as you are, if they're good suggestions i'll get on board.
EDIT - also to add, my main army is Tyranids, dakka fex are overrated. They see play now because WTF else are we going to do than spam hive guards, but that's a different story. The heavy venom cannon isn't bad, by the way, good luck repoing that in GK. On a lucky roll a dakka fex with an HVC is like a squad of "dark reapers lite."
I'm pretty sure the part about ignoring invulns was for demons only, he also said it would be ap-. And I don't really know tyranids that well but something tells me they have ap on their weapons through some method. I also have a feeling that a dakkafex costs less too
And the 16 attacks with falchions(marines of all flavors should have an extra attack, and frankly most melee heavy armies but that's a whole other thread) would happen anyway if marines get bumped to 2A base.
I don't know where you're getting the selectable profile from
And carnifexs can ride in tyrannocytes. So they can get in vehicles too. Just sayin...
Feel free to correct me on tyranids because I'm not 100% on them
I'm not agreeing with the changes but be more accurate when you counter point.
akaean wrote:Let me put what you said another way;
"There is no need to make Sternguard Bolters 30 inch range and Ap-2. They're an effective weapon as is. There's no reason for them to be better than all similar imperial guns just because."
It sounds absolutely rediculous when applied to another unit- and you can't say, "but, but, but special issue ammo!" without admitting full stop that psybolt ammo is a very good reason to give GK's +1 strength to their bolter weapons.
Sure, they used to have Psybolt Ammo as an upgrade. Now it’s a Stratagem. Personally I think it should go back to being an upgrade; GK are starved for CP as it is and Stratagems’ one-use rule is too limiting. But then, I think a lot of things that are now Stratagems should go back to being upgrades or native special rules, so this is hardly a GK-specific problem. Psybolt Ammo was never standard kit for a Grey Knight. Also remember that for GK the Stormbolter is a sidearm, whereas for Sternguard it’s their sole weapon, gimmick and reason for being, so the comparison isn’t exactly apples-to-apples. That the GK’s sidearm is better than Fire Warriors’ primary rifle should tell you they’re already well enough equipped for shooting.
Quickjager wrote:
But at this point I'm looking at stupid gak like kombatwombat's suggestions and I don't see you saying that isn't dumb either.
Oh ho! Let’s dance then, sunshine. Rather than just talking gak to others and calling me/my ideas names, start actually addressing what I’ve said. What is it amongst my suggestions that’s got your feathers ruffled?
Let’s see what I’ve suggested. A slight nerf to Falchions and a one-point increase for Halberds to balance them against one another and bring them into line with the other Power Weapons. Do you honestly think I was saying ‘nerf Falchions, that’ll fix GK being underpowered’? Or did you just miss my point entirely that you need to balance the ship before loading it up? The changes were suggested in the context of giving GK boosts in other areas. Sometimes it’s better to take one step back to take three steps forward rather than just belligerently taking one step forward.
There were previous suggestions for buffs to the Psycannon and Psilencer that I said I basically agreed with, but I disagreed with increasing Incinerators’ range to 12”. I gave my reasoning that the problem was not the Incinerator but flamer weapons in general, and that it was better to suggest fixes for all flamers rather than just upgunning this specific thing in particular.
I disagreed with increasing Stormbolters to Str 5 for the reasons given above in this post. I said that the suggested Hammer profile was madness, which I’d be fascinated if you disagreed, and that the Daemon Stratagem was a terrible idea so giving it to GK wasn’t good either. Finally, I suggested that all GK Bolt weapons, Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators ignored Daemons’ Invul saves, which is a solid buff. If you think that buff was too much then ok, tell me why.
What in there is ‘stupid ‘, pray tell?
On the Primaris buff, why is that stupid? It seems to address the two biggest problems with Marines: T4 1W 3+ just isn’t durable, and the loss of a bonus attack on the charge. If you’re saying it’s only stupid because GW will never implement it, well then all you’re saying is that GW’s marketing team is preventing 40k from being a better game. In other news, water is wet.
Remember that GK’s design space is limited by the existence of Space Marines and Custodes. They can never have better equipment than Custodes, because if they did the Custodes would relieve them of it for their own use. They can’t even have equipment as good as Custodes - they are the Emperor’s companions, it’s simply a fact of the fictional universe that they get the best stuff, period. They also pay for the privilege (not enough in the case of Dawneagles, but the rest do). GK should have a better standard of equipment than Marines, but they’re limited there as well. GK can’t have a better profile than equivalent Marine, because they are an equivalent Marine. That’s why I keep banging on about improving the Marine statline - they need the boost damn near as much as GK do, and helping them helps GK too. You can’t just make GK tougher - against Daemons sure, but against an Earthshaker shell? Why would GK be more resilient against that?
The freedom in GK’s design space is in their special rules and psychic powers. I suggested the ignoring Invulnerable saves on Daemons as one special rule, and I’d suggest another: their Nemesis weapons do a flat 3 Damage rather than D3 against Daemons. I’d also suggest another step back, three steps forward approach: take Rites of Banishment away from Paladins and Characters, then change RoB to ‘may not use Smite.’
The tradeoff? Give GK a series of Minor Psychic Powers that are explicitly not affected by Psychic Focus, so multiple units can cast the same power. A quick attempt at these powers, remembering that most units can only cast one power a turn:
All GK:
- +2 Strength
- auto-advance 6” and can still Charge
- +1 to Invul Save or a 5++ if they don’t have one
- Strike Squads also get: reroll 1s to Hit
- Terminator Squads also get: a horde-thinning CC power similar to the old Holocaust
- Purgation Squads also get: Reroll all hits when shooting
- Characters, Dreadnoughts, Paladins and Dreadknights also get to pick one of the ones Strike Squads/Terminators/Purgation Squads have
- Librarians get them all
This would let them adjust on the fly and get powerful, fluffy bonuses. Coupled with a points overhaul and I reckon they’d be in alright shape.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:If you'll quote them I will say why they're bad.
I mean, it doesn’t exactly sound like you’re going to look at my suggestions with any objectivity here...
Marmatag wrote: EDIT - also to add, my main army is Tyranids, dakka fex are overrated. They see play now because WTF else are we going to do than spam hive guards, but that's a different story. The heavy venom cannon isn't bad, by the way, good luck repoing that in GK. On a lucky roll a dakka fex with an HVC is like a squad of "dark reapers lite."
No way you will convince me of that, I drew my opinion on them by using them myself, they are the core of my army. Regardless, even if you were right, you aren't asking for a Dakkafex equivalent. You're asking for a unit that makes Dakkafex look like a little bitch, many times over, and that's absurd that you think you need that to play 40k.
Slayer is pretty terrible at voicing his option without being somewhat corrosive at the same time.
I think i generally agree with him, though.
Grey knights have tons of issues, but most of them are just issues with Marines and their units.
The marine statline, their transports, and their melee abilities all suffered from the conversion to 8th. These are the things that need to be fixed before making other large changes.
There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with GK being Marines with storm bolters and Force weapons. Both of those weapons are pretty good the way they are with the right general statline and delivery system. Marines just don't have either of those things right now.
If codex Marines were fixed (probably mostly by making them cheaper) so that more of their units were worth taking, all GK would likely need to be competitive is shunt back on the NDKs and and perhaps arevamp of their psychic abilities.
jcd386 wrote: Grey knights have tons of issues, but most of them are just issues with Marines and their units.
The marine statline, their transports, and their melee abilities all suffered from the conversion to 8th. These are the things that need to be fixed before making other large changes.
There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with GK being Marines with storm bolters and Force weapons. Both of those weapons are pretty good the way they are with the right general statline and delivery system. Marines just don't have either of those things right now.
If codex Marines were fixed (probably mostly by making them cheaper) so that more of their units were worth taking, all GK would likely need to be competitive is shunt back on the NDKs and and perhaps arevamp of their psychic abilities.
Exactly. Trying to fix GK without first addressing the fundamental issues Marines have first is just going to end in tears as a glass cannon army with horrible internal balance. I think a series of minor powers that don’t fall under the Psychic Focus rule and some small tweaks to the Nemesis weapons to internally balance those, plus a couple of buffs to special rules and heavy weapons would just about fix them after a points readjustment.
jcd386 wrote: Slayer is pretty terrible at voicing his option without being somewhat corrosive at the same time.
I think i generally agree with him, though.
Grey knights have tons of issues, but most of them are just issues with Marines and their units.
The marine statline, their transports, and their melee abilities all suffered from the conversion to 8th. These are the things that need to be fixed before making other large changes.
There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with GK being Marines with storm bolters and Force weapons. Both of those weapons are pretty good the way they are with the right general statline and delivery system. Marines just don't have either of those things right now.
If codex Marines were fixed (probably mostly by making them cheaper) so that more of their units were worth taking, all GK would likely need to be competitive is shunt back on the NDKs and and perhaps arevamp of their psychic abilities.
I suppose my proposed fixes would make more sense if I proposed all my main suggestions for the Vanilla Marine codex, but yes those are fundamental issues that need to be rectified first, along with a couple of core rules fixes (Fly units need a -1 to hit after fleeing, but like I said that's a separate issue).
akaean wrote:Let me put what you said another way;
"There is no need to make Sternguard Bolters 30 inch range and Ap-2. They're an effective weapon as is. There's no reason for them to be better than all similar imperial guns just because."
It sounds absolutely rediculous when applied to another unit- and you can't say, "but, but, but special issue ammo!" without admitting full stop that psybolt ammo is a very good reason to give GK's +1 strength to their bolter weapons.
Sure, they used to have Psybolt Ammo as an upgrade. Now it’s a Stratagem. Personally I think it should go back to being an upgrade; GK are starved for CP as it is and Stratagems’ one-use rule is too limiting. But then, I think a lot of things that are now Stratagems should go back to being upgrades or native special rules, so this is hardly a GK-specific problem. Psybolt Ammo was never standard kit for a Grey Knight. Also remember that for GK the Stormbolter is a sidearm, whereas for Sternguard it’s their sole weapon, gimmick and reason for being, so the comparison isn’t exactly apples-to-apples. That the GK’s sidearm is better than Fire Warriors’ primary rifle should tell you they’re already well enough equipped for shooting.
Quickjager wrote:
But at this point I'm looking at stupid gak like kombatwombat's suggestions and I don't see you saying that isn't dumb either.
Oh ho! Let’s dance then, sunshine. Rather than just talking gak to others and calling me/my ideas names, start actually addressing what I’ve said. What is it amongst my suggestions that’s got your feathers ruffled?
Let’s see what I’ve suggested. A slight nerf to Falchions and a one-point increase for Halberds to balance them against one another and bring them into line with the other Power Weapons. Do you honestly think I was saying ‘nerf Falchions, that’ll fix GK being underpowered’? Or did you just miss my point entirely that you need to balance the ship before loading it up? The changes were suggested in the context of giving GK boosts in other areas. Sometimes it’s better to take one step back to take three steps forward rather than just belligerently taking one step forward.
There were previous suggestions for buffs to the Psycannon and Psilencer that I said I basically agreed with, but I disagreed with increasing Incinerators’ range to 12”. I gave my reasoning that the problem was not the Incinerator but flamer weapons in general, and that it was better to suggest fixes for all flamers rather than just upgunning this specific thing in particular.
I disagreed with increasing Stormbolters to Str 5 for the reasons given above in this post. I said that the suggested Hammer profile was madness, which I’d be fascinated if you disagreed, and that the Daemon Stratagem was a terrible idea so giving it to GK wasn’t good either. Finally, I suggested that all GK Bolt weapons, Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators ignored Daemons’ Invul saves, which is a solid buff. If you think that buff was too much then ok, tell me why.
What in there is ‘stupid ‘, pray tell?
On the Primaris buff, why is that stupid? It seems to address the two biggest problems with Marines: T4 1W 3+ just isn’t durable, and the loss of a bonus attack on the charge. If you’re saying it’s only stupid because GW will never implement it, well then all you’re saying is that GW’s marketing team is preventing 40k from being a better game. In other news, water is wet.
Remember that GK’s design space is limited by the existence of Space Marines and Custodes. They can never have better equipment than Custodes, because if they did the Custodes would relieve them of it for their own use. They can’t even have equipment as good as Custodes - they are the Emperor’s companions, it’s simply a fact of the fictional universe that they get the best stuff, period. They also pay for the privilege (not enough in the case of Dawneagles, but the rest do). GK should have a better standard of equipment than Marines, but they’re limited there as well. GK can’t have a better profile than equivalent Marine, because they are an equivalent Marine. That’s why I keep banging on about improving the Marine statline - they need the boost damn near as much as GK do, and helping them helps GK too. You can’t just make GK tougher - against Daemons sure, but against an Earthshaker shell? Why would GK be more resilient against that?
The freedom in GK’s design space is in their special rules and psychic powers. I suggested the ignoring Invulnerable saves on Daemons as one special rule, and I’d suggest another: their Nemesis weapons do a flat 3 Damage rather than D3 against Daemons. I’d also suggest another step back, three steps forward approach: take Rites of Banishment away from Paladins and Characters, then change RoB to ‘may not use Smite.’
The tradeoff? Give GK a series of Minor Psychic Powers that are explicitly not affected by Psychic Focus, so multiple units can cast the same power. A quick attempt at these powers, remembering that most units can only cast one power a turn:
All GK:
- +2 Strength
- auto-advance 6” and can still Charge
- +1 to Invul Save or a 5++ if they don’t have one
- Strike Squads also get: reroll 1s to Hit
- Terminator Squads also get: a horde-thinning CC power similar to the old Holocaust
- Purgation Squads also get: Reroll all hits when shooting
- Characters, Dreadnoughts, Paladins and Dreadknights also get to pick one of the ones Strike Squads/Terminators/Purgation Squads have
- Librarians get them all
This would let them adjust on the fly and get powerful, fluffy bonuses. Coupled with a points overhaul and I reckon they’d be in alright shape.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:If you'll quote them I will say why they're bad.
I mean, it doesn’t exactly sound like you’re going to look at my suggestions with any objectivity here...
There isn't anything to argue. Your specific points are ideas that go against 8th edition design philosophy. We don't "pay" for our melee weapons, except for the hammer, because GW realized having a squad be 127 points of book-keeping was annoying. Furthermore your idea is to RAISE the cost of the melee weapons while at the same time nerfing them across the board. Did you not know GK have the melee weapons cost already built into them? It looks that way judging by the way you talk. You do talk with buffing the entire Marine lineup which I think is necessary, but doing it by just giving them the Primaris statline is not going to happen realistically. So no we don't have to ever really worry about the idea of stat overinflation. There are plenty of other possible fixes that don't involve just tossing more attacks or wounds into a profile which as I see that you do realize would lead to much more extreme outcomes.
The reasons that you argue for stormbolters is not really important to me specifically because I have never really wanted the stormbolter profile to change, I understand why some do. Once again it, we see that the basic bolter is horrid, bolters as a whole need something, but it goes without saying it can't be a universal STR, range, RoF, or D increase. Some people propose shred. There are a lot of ways to go about it but some are more complicated. I would simply make it so that against targets with a 5+ or worse save the bolter's S4 becomes S5. This is to avoid the very common pitfall of any kind of shooting killing marines easier compared to Boyz, guardsmen and the like; while at the same time making cover valuable to units with a 5+ so they can avoid the bolter penalty by standing in it and going to a 4+ armor save.
But then we run into the 8th edition design philosophy issue, MAKE IT SIMPLE. Which this doesn't.
I don't know anyone who disagrees with flamers needing their range increased, but you need to realize that if people in thread are going to approach mostly the GK problems from the GK perspective which means we only talk about incinerators. As for Psycannons I once again don't know anyone who really disagrees they are literally a more expensive and objectively worse assault cannon.
So if you want to me specifically say what is dumb, it would be the idea to just give all the marines (chaos and loyal) a primaris statline upgrade. I will never expect GW to do such a thing. Their marine statline is too "untouchable" in their eyes and the game does suffer for it. And now that a new model line has the statline they needed? I don't expect it even more as that would bite into sales. So yes, I am saying GW marketing team sucks, they get the rules or unit rolls wrong half the time as well when trying to sell something. There is a Knight Household detachment for sale right now, the bundle says it fills a basic detachment. It actually doesn't.
As to why I don't go over Marmatag's posts? Me and him have already talked till the cows came home in regards to how to go about improving Grey Knights. I won't change his mind.
Then we go into your argument that they are limited to be Marines just with better equipment and I look at Khorne Berserkers, Death Company, Vanguard Vets, Command Squads (whatever they are called now), Sternguard, Wulfen, Most of the Space Wolf line in fact, Black Knights, Deathwing, Deathwatch, and I laugh at you saying they are stuck with it. Ignoring the fluff that GK do nothing but train for decades in trials supposedly not even an average "ordinary" marine can pass. That is why I can't take you seriously, you take your own standard for what a marine is and apply it to just one faction when there is so much room for different doctrines to show different kinds of training or experiences.
As for anti-daemon tricks honestly, too many GK players get tired of people ilk saying, "hurr durr anti-daemon specialists that's why you suck". There was only two rules that ever actually scared Daemons and that was Warp Quake, a frankly op ability that locked down 3/4 of the board from deepstrikers, and Daemonbane where you literally rerolled everything against them. Anything else including the anti-daemon smite we have now? Sucks. You don't see the Deathwatch getting pigeon-holed nearly as much which is GOOD.
As for psychic powers, literally any suggestion is good you can't make it worse. Though GW keeps managing to almost do so. The largest issue with psychic powers though is that GW has never managing to make a fluffy rule that shows how GK actually fight using psychic powers. It has always been a derivative from other factions.
I would love to have creative control over Grey Knights, but I don't, playtesters will never read or even consider any idea we have so I would rather stop wasting my and others time. So I keep saying one thing. Pressure GW to actually get them to admit GK suck via email. Copy and paste it hit send do it once a week. That will be what actually gets results. Not me or anyone else saying, "Well I think they need X". GW really doesn't care about the community level feelings unless you smack them in the face, ask orks, ask CSM. I at this point just want good rules and we never get them which is why I stopped buying them. Haven't owned a BRB or codex since 6th.
This is a wishlist.
GW will not change SM codex until next one and GK need an improvement NOW.
According to this, there's nothing to nerf for "internal balance", only things to improve.
And I don't agree that GK (or others SM chapters) can't have equipment better than Custodes.
They have different equipment. And something could be similar or better. From a fluffy point of view GK should have the BEST EQUIPMENT among all SM chapters. Actually GK have less equipment and worse and can't have access to FW stuff, that's crazy.
So, please stop putting limits. There is no problem in making halberds +2 S, because Custodes will have anyway a better stat line.
We need a total change. Since it is impossible until next Codex, we should have some improvement, or quit GK, as many people already did.
According to this, the minimum we can have is:
Big points drop for almost ALL our models. All Termy IC should have a discount equal or major to 20 points (not apothecary).
All PA should have a discount from 2 to 5 points.
We need more powers, since I don't believe that they will change psychic focus rule. The six I posted some time ago and librarius could be OK. Paladins and Purifier should have an AoE psychic power different from the others.
We need Ordo Malleus KW.
Psycannon and Psylencer must to be redesigned. Psycannon must become a solid antitank and psylencer should have some rules like 1 mortal wound on 6 to wound.
We should use DS without Beta.
All our models should start with veterans stat line. Because all our brothers ARE veterans. We don't have scout and we don't have noobs.
Psyammo for everyone, by paying them as in 5 ed, or not, like stern guard or DW. It could be +1 S, -1AP, or something else. Maybe it could be a stratagem working on all the same models, like for IK new stratagem.
And despite these we will still face problems like no way to reach CC, few models, not enough toughness, no inv saves.
We need a new codex. But until then, these could be a good fix (or maybe average fix?)
About the argument related to stormbolter with +1S and ignore invulnerable, I don't see anything crazy. AP - make ignore invulnerable useful ONLY against demons. +1S means that on 20 shots against a PA instead of 2,22 damage you will deal 2,96. A difference equal to 0,74. On 20 shots and 100 points. If you play 30 PA all with +1S a whole turn in short range means that you will use 600 points to deal 17,78 damage on a PA, than means 231 points of models damaged, and 17 deaths. WITH 600 points and 30 models.
IS THIS BROKEN?
Its nice to discuss all these ideas for codex overhauls, but realistically the only thing that will change on a large scale is the points, for the foreseeable future. Erratas affect the function of the more universal rules occasionally, and beta rule as additions to core matched play rules, but a total ground up rebuild just isn't gonna happen.
Because if one codex gets such a treatment, the internet will start screaming until all codexes get it.
I have a question, why GK do not have access to stormshields?
Draigo has one, but I think he is the only models that gets one.
I think if we could get cheap stormshields on termintors and power armored dudes, the resiliance would go up a lot.
Maybe even make some special kind of unit that can lock its shields and form a phalanx. Or hvy weapon armed dudes using their SS the way XV century crossbowman used pavis shields.
I wish they would just combine it all into an Inquisition Codex. Then you could just make the Army you want.
I haven't touched my GK army since 7th, makes me sad since they were my first army when I started in 6th. I liked their lore and it seemed like an easier army to get into with the lower model count.
Big points drop for almost ALL our models. All Termy IC should have a discount equal or major to 20 points (not apothecary).
All PA should have a discount from 2 to 5 points.
We need more powers, since I don't believe that they will change psychic focus rule. The six I posted some time ago and librarius could be OK. Paladins and Purifier should have an AoE psychic power different from the others.
We need Ordo Malleus KW.
Psycannon and Psylencer must to be redesigned. Psycannon must become a solid antitank and psylencer should have some rules like 1 mortal wound on 6 to wound.
We should use DS without Beta.
All our models should start with veterans stat line. Because all our brothers ARE veterans. We don't have scout and we don't have noobs.
Psyammo for everyone, by paying them as in 5 ed, or not, like stern guard or DW. It could be +1 S, -1AP, or something else. Maybe it could be a stratagem working on all the same models, like for IK new stratagem.
And despite these we will still face problems like no way to reach CC, few models, not enough toughness, no inv saves. ...
These are all well thought out boosts/fixes - my input:
* Terminators need "Holocaust" back, iconic power.
* The idea of minor psychic powers that aren't affected by the new psychic rules is an intriguing idea. Given their current fluff of sometimes utilizing "sorcerous powers". I'd rather this then a character providing an "aura buff" providing +1 to hit or whatever.
* Personally I think the Psycannon should be more geared towards killing big gribbleys rather than vehicles (but in this edition they're mostly the same statwise).
* I especially like the "vet stat line" - Fluff wise GK are trained for 50 years minimum before they're given their suits of PA and Term armor.
- Blood Angels spend a year in a casket and then are given their scout armor.
- SW are even worse, they're trained for something like a year and then given power armor and made Blood Claws.
* I see no reason why GK couldn't have "psybolt ammo" that would make them ignore invulnerable saves, across the board. This would in actuality only affect Demons and even most of them still have a 6+ "armor" save against GK storm bolters (with their AP0).
Spartacus wrote:Its nice to discuss all these ideas for codex overhauls, but realistically the only thing that will change on a large scale is the points, for the foreseeable future. Erratas affect the function of the more universal rules occasionally, and beta rule as additions to core matched play rules, but a total ground up rebuild just isn't gonna happen.
Because if one codex gets such a treatment, the internet will start screaming until all codexes get it.
Actually FAQ and Erratas included in the game rules changes. If all we'll get is points drop I hope it is a HUGE points drop.
Karol wrote:I have a question, why GK do not have access to stormshields?
Draigo has one, but I think he is the only models that gets one.
I think if we could get cheap stormshields on termintors and power armored dudes, the resiliance would go up a lot.
Maybe even make some special kind of unit that can lock its shields and form a phalanx. Or hvy weapon armed dudes using their SS the way XV century crossbowman used pavis shields.
Probably we lost the ship carried them. And Deimos forgot how to make it. There no other explanations.
Karol wrote:I have a question, why GK do not have access to stormshields?
Draigo has one, but I think he is the only models that gets one.
I think if we could get cheap stormshields on termintors and power armored dudes, the resiliance would go up a lot.
Maybe even make some special kind of unit that can lock its shields and form a phalanx. Or hvy weapon armed dudes using their SS the way XV century crossbowman used pavis shields.
Probably we lost the ship carried them. And Deimos forgot how to make it. There no other explanations.
I smell the possibilities for a new unit...
Defensors - 5-10 PAGK with Storm Shields & Storm Bolters or Storm Shields and NFStaves perhaps? perform the dual role of character guardians and demonic/psychic sinkholes/nullifiers...
I talk a lot of gak? I've barely even said anything in here.
Was not referring to you. Context got messed up because it was hastily typed.
It would be nice to have a productive discussion around balance, but I don't think that can happen here because reasons.
Like i said, i'm fine pushing the reset button and starting with someone else's ideas, and we can debate from there. What is even being argued at this point? It's just a slap fest.
Karol wrote:I have a question, why GK do not have access to stormshields?
Draigo has one, but I think he is the only models that gets one.
I think if we could get cheap stormshields on termintors and power armored dudes, the resiliance would go up a lot.
Maybe even make some special kind of unit that can lock its shields and form a phalanx. Or hvy weapon armed dudes using their SS the way XV century crossbowman used pavis shields.
Probably we lost the ship carried them. And Deimos forgot how to make it. There no other explanations.
I smell the possibilities for a new unit...
Defensors - 5-10 PAGK with Storm Shields & Storm Bolters or Storm Shields and NFStaves perhaps? perform the dual role of character guardians and demonic/psychic sinkholes/nullifiers...
Wishful thinking
I see more likely termy with SS and Nemesis weapons. And, obviously, right wist mounted stormbolter. They would be AWESOME from a modellistic point of view, meh from a competitive one. But because they are termy in 8th edition not for other reason. Neverthless, I hope to see them.
I have played several styles of Grey Knight list in 8th, they range from pretty lousy to comedically uncompetitive.
Ok here's some of my ideas plus some of the best ideas I've heard since codex release for improving the army.
I don't think points reductions are the way to go in most cases, GK sit at about the right point level in my opinion, instead they need some characterful cool rules to bring them up to the power level of other armies, bringing back some of the old rules they had in the past to give the army more flavour.
Terminators should be T5, this should apply to all terminator units not just GK, because terminators are pretty much junk across the board. 5+ to wound from standard small arms S4 and S10 needed to get down to 2+ to wound would make a huge difference. And actually make terminators a fair bit better. I've been saying this for 5 editions, T4 just isn't that durable. GKTDA wouldn't need much of points drop if any at T5 with some of the added stuff I'll mention below.
Give all units 2 cast and deny 1 at the very least, so they can cast utility powers depending on situation.
Add a second psychic tree available to all GK units and exempt from psychic focus.
This table would include 3 utility powers and would be auto included for all GK, as in no need to select these powers.
- Hammerhand (same as current power)
- Sanctuary (same as current power)
- Psybolt Ammunition (instead of current strat)
I thought about gate for this list, but a whole army gating each turn would be stupidly broken, these 3 powers i think represent the cornerstone of GKs psychic ability.
Bring back true grit, GK can fire storm bolters as if they were pistols in CC. This is more flavourful than a straight buff to number of attacks, combined with psybolt as a power it would provide some much needed killing power which GK sorely lack.
Bring back The Aegis , 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds (paladins some & characters could get a 5+).
Bring back the shrouding -1 to hit outside 18", could be a little op, if so make it an AOE psychic power which could replace one of the junk powers in the current table.
Then obviously fix the most glaring points cost discrepancies within the codex, especially with the special weapons, cc weapons. Overcosted characters could end up around the right points cost with the other changes to powers and rules.
Make psycannons and incinerators ignore invulnerable saves again, don't need to touch the points to do this, they're so junk in their current state this wouldn't be remotely broken.
I think this would make the army competitive without stepping on custodes toes by adding straight stat buffs.
To me balancing Grey Knights is really about the psychic phase. It's what makes them unique and they suck in it, because their powers suck.
The other things you mention, such as psybolt ammo, and true grit, i really like. Also the FNP against mortal wounds is solid.
In a general sense GK would scale far better if they could use more powers, and those powers were good. I would be okay with more powers and some powers not having the rule of 1 restriction. But that's a fundamental design paradigm change that i don't think GW would implement.
I agree it would help if they 'fixed' marines first, and then used that as a basis for gk. But having said that, aside from being 'more eliter', their other 'thing' is everyone is a psyker. Maybe, *gasp*, give that side of the equation a bit more love. I was more aware of it with 1ksons since i used to play them, but why did babysmite need to come into existance? We're going to charge more for this squad because it can cast spells, but then it's not comparable to 'proper' pysker's versions.
Another 6 spells, proper smite (goes for 1ksons too), maybe even being able to ignore the core rules by being able to cast the same spell multiple times per turn. Make it go up in difficulty by 1 every time its successfully cast.
Really good suggestions, great way of bringing them in line with other dexes while holding a unique identity. I don't like the idea of -1 to shooting though, but GK probably deserve it, so go with the more conservative option there.
The reason why GK do not have Storm Shields except for Draigo is because Nemesis Force Swords were supposed to Parry, granting a +1 bonus to invul saves. Unfortunately, the Parry rule was dropped without correcting the missing wargear.
akaean wrote:
The freedom in GK’s design space is in their special rules and psychic powers. I suggested the ignoring Invulnerable saves on Daemons as one special rule, and I’d suggest another: their Nemesis weapons do a flat 3 Damage rather than D3 against Daemons. I’d also suggest another step back, three steps forward approach: take Rites of Banishment away from Paladins and Characters, then change RoB to ‘may not use Smite.’
The tradeoff? Give GK a series of Minor Psychic Powers that are explicitly not affected by Psychic Focus, so multiple units can cast the same power. A quick attempt at these powers, remembering that most units can only cast one power a turn:
All GK:
- +2 Strength
- auto-advance 6” and can still Charge
- +1 to Invul Save or a 5++ if they don’t have one
I really like the idea, and I was thinking. To keep Grey Knights condensed (and a bit different from other Psyker Armies) make the following changes:
- Rites of Banishment is changed to forbid all non-LIBRARIAN GREY KNIGHTS from casting Smite. However in Matched Play, it makes all Sanctic Powers exempt from Psychic Focus.
- Grey Knights keep their six Sanctic Powers, the powers function the same as in-Codex the first time they are manifested/ attempted to manifest, but afterwards they provide a lesser effect (keeping the same core rules (distance, warp charge, targets, etc.) as the "empowered" version):
1. Purge Soul's secondary is 1 MW to a unit within 12", flat 3 MW to DAEMONS
2. Gate of Infinity's secondary is the target immediately moves, but cannot end closer than 9" away
3. Hammerhand's secondary is +1 Strength in melee
4. Sanctuary's secondary is the target is considered in cover
5. Astral Aim's secondary is they ignore cover.
(I had a tough time figuring a good, lesser version of VOD, so I did a bit of a cop out and made it just a baby Vortex)
6. Vortex of Doom's secondary is targets nearest enemy model within 12", that unit and any unit within 3" of the model suffers 1 MW
Goal was to keep the powers functionally the same, but not as strong as the 1st cast.
I am aware that these changes won't do much for Grey Knights as a whole, but I enjoyed the exercise and the idea to solve the: "Grey Knights need more powers" issue.
MAYBE bump up a few Grey Knight units to Know 2 powers to give some flexibility for the loss of "Smite"
This gives:
Eldar's have their flip mechanic, where they effectively get twice as many powers per slot.
Thousand Son's have 12 (18) powers to choose from
Grey Knights then get 6 powers, but exempt from the 1 per phase, but the second casts won't be "as" powerful.
I'd be more a fan of the individual squads knowing their own Power in addition to Smite, kinda like how it used to be. All Purgation Squads getting access to Astral Aim would be best even if nobody else got. It isn't like there are that many better targets for it anyway, so if you fixed them in the first place...
I don't like the idea of a side effect of power. Moreover the secondary effect of Gate is useless. you can directly put the models where you want. what movement add to gate?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't like there are that many better targets for it anyway, so if you fixed them in the first place...
Personally a fan of Astral Aim on a Lascannon platform.
I wouldn't be opposed, considering that Interceptors / Strikes had Warp Quake, which was suggested earlier as an alternative for GK bubblewrap.
Though I'd rather Psycannons / Psilencers get reworked and have a purpose.
Warp Quake could be something like until your next turn, if a unit Deep Strikes within 12" each model suffers a Mortal Wound on a 6+ or something like that. Granted it doesn't scale terribly well but it's a starting point at minimum for me at least...
Danarc wrote: Moreover the secondary effect of Gate is useless. you can directly put the models where you want. what movement add to gate?
The secondary effect (extra move is what Gate of Infinity does if cast a second time, it doesn't "have" to affect a unit that used GOI's redeploy.
Example:
You could GOI Dragio across the board with the first cast, and then on the second cast have a NDK move 8" to go faster.
Or say once you Deep Strike your Terminators the second cast may allow them to move up to 10" (5" normal + 5" GOI) keeping them from being left in the dust.
Warp Quake could be something like until your next turn, if a unit Deep Strikes within 12" each model suffers a Mortal Wound on a 6+ or something like that. Granted it doesn't scale terribly well but it's a starting point at minimum for me at least...
I was a fan of the units that set up within 12" suffer D3 Mortal Wounds. Again doesn't scale well (strong vs small units)
Warp Quake: "enemy units cannot be set up within 12" of the caster's unit until the end of the next psychic phase."
That way, Plasma cannot deploy in rapid fire range and the squad cannot be charged from a deep striking unit. It creates a larger area denial area around the army. Being able to extend their reserves denial area at the cost of a psychic power helps them mitigate their big weakness of not having access to cheap chaff bodies (even scouts).
How often does GW update their books? People told me that they make an update once per year, but in their chapter approved book, there are no real changes to Grey Knights. They also seem to have a FAQ/errata section on their site, but those don't have points or stat adjustments either.
Most of the time you only get a new codex each edition. Chapter Approved is supposed to rebalance points. It comes out once per year. The semi-annual FAQs are supposed to address rules issues (mostly). At least that's GW's stated plan.
GW has redone Codices within an edition at least once when they redid the Chaos Space Marine Codex in 3rd and 3.5th. I believe they also redid the Eldar in the same manner. So it's not unheard of for them to redo a codex but it's not common.
Chapter Approved has a number of points changes, and some general rules changes. Nothing faction specific that I know of off hand, though. The big FAQ had some specific changes and some more points changes.
Realistically we probably aren't going to get major rewrites of GK rules until they get a new codex, but points can go down and perhaps a few rules changed.
Karol wrote: How often does GW update their books? People told me that they make an update once per year, but in their chapter approved book, there are no real changes to Grey Knights. They also seem to have a FAQ/errata section on their site, but those don't have points or stat adjustments either.
GW updates Chapter Approved once a year and publishes FAQ twice a year.
Other books are not updated as books. There are some faqs or errata on the previously mentioned publications.
To update a codex GW would take two years or maybe five.
There isn't anything to argue. Your specific points are ideas that go against 8th edition design philosophy. We don't "pay" for our melee weapons, except for the hammer, because GW realized having a squad be 127 points of book-keeping was annoying. Furthermore your idea is to RAISE the cost of the melee weapons while at the same time nerfing them across the board. Did you not know GK have the melee weapons cost already built into them? It looks that way judging by the way you talk. You do talk with buffing the entire Marine lineup which I think is necessary, but doing it by just giving them the Primaris statline is not going to happen realistically. So no we don't have to ever really worry about the idea of stat overinflation. There are plenty of other possible fixes that don't involve just tossing more attacks or wounds into a profile which as I see that you do realize would lead to much more extreme outcomes.
Then we go into your argument that they are limited to be Marines just with better equipment and I look at Khorne Berserkers, Death Company, Vanguard Vets, Command Squads (whatever they are called now), Sternguard, Wulfen, Most of the Space Wolf line in fact, Black Knights, Deathwing, Deathwatch, and I laugh at you saying they are stuck with it. Ignoring the fluff that GK do nothing but train for decades in trials supposedly not even an average "ordinary" marine can pass. That is why I can't take you seriously, you take your own standard for what a marine is and apply it to just one faction when there is so much room for different doctrines to show different kinds of training or experiences.
I know GK don’t pay for their weapons, but as a GK player you should be saying that it’s stupid to have it rolled into the model’s cost since it means you’re paying for a Nemesis weapon on a Power Armoured GK with a heavy weapon. Even leaving that aside, it’s not hard to make Swords 0 and Halberds 1pt. It’s also not as dramatic as ‘nerfs across the board’. It was exactly 2 small stat changes to make the three weapons equal to one another without needlessly powering up every weapon.
Beyond that... I don’t think there’s much more to be made from debating this further. We clearly have different ideas about what a Grey Knight should be. You’re a GK player who seems to think they should be super elite best-of-the-best-of-the-best who each has as much experience and skill than a grizzled veteran with centuries of experience, while I think they should have the same statline as an equivalent Marine but with psychic powers, a Stormbolter sidearm, Nemesis weapon and special rules to reflect their particular abilities. I don’t think we’re going to reconcile those two views so I think we can end it there.
I think we’re on the same page about the fixes needing to start from the Marine statline and tweaking GK from there, but I’m going to keep pounding the ‘make everybody Primaris’ drum in the hope that one day GW listens. I think the GK are locked to the Marine statline though - good luck trying to justify GK getting Strength 5 when Marines have 4 or something.
Ultimately I’m happy to say ‘the Marine statline needs work, but until then, I support Mike712’s ideas.’
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Most of the time you only get a new codex each edition. Chapter Approved is supposed to rebalance points. It comes out once per year. The semi-annual FAQs are supposed to address rules issues (mostly). At least that's GW's stated plan.
GW has redone Codices within an edition at least once when they redid the Chaos Space Marine Codex in 3rd and 3.5th. I believe they also redid the Eldar in the same manner. So it's not unheard of for them to redo a codex but it's not common.
Ok, I probablly saw the pdf of a wrong book then. It didn't have any points drops for GK in it, only some stuff about Nemezisknights. What worries me though, is something pointed really well, points adjustments aren't going to help much. Because either they will undercosts everything and GK, become the new IG, or the points drops are going to be insignificant to matter.
I know GK don’t pay for their weapons, but as a GK player you should be saying that it’s stupid to have it rolled into the model’s cost since it means you’re paying for a Nemesis weapon on a Power Armoured GK with a heavy weapon.
I ain't sure, but IMO it doesn't really matter, as GK hvy weapons are so bad, you don't want to take them anyway. I really wouldn't want GW to give use separate force weapon costs on our units, and then say everything is fixed, and leave everything else unchanged.
I think we’re on the same page about the fixes needing to start from the Marine statline and tweaking GK from there, but I’m going to keep pounding the ‘make everybody Primaris’ drum in the hope that one day GW listens. I think the GK are locked to the Marine statline though - good luck trying to justify GK getting Strength 5 when Marines have 4 or something.
But for that GW would have to make primaris GK models. For me this would mean my whole army is no longer legal, because I own 0 primaris,
To update a codex GW would take two years or maybe five.
That is a long time to wait. I hope they will see that GK are doing bad at tournaments and will fix them durning summer.
I mean GW did include two price tags for Grey Knight special weapons (Power Armour and Terminator)
The only difference is Terminators keep their Nemesis weapons and the pricetag is unaffected by the Attack characteristic (otherwise Strikes, Terminators, and Paladins would have different pricetags for the Daemonhammer)
So it's safe to assume Nemesis Force Weapons cost 6 pts.
(All Terminator SWs cost 6 pts more)
This would make Strike Knight's model cost the same as a Tactical Marine (which is fitting as they have the exact same profile)
[Personally I find it annoying when GW bakes base gear's price into a model's base cost, just make all wargear have a price, easier to balance in the long term, imo]
akaean wrote: Warp Quake: "enemy units cannot be set up within 12" of the caster's unit until the end of the next psychic phase."
That way, Plasma cannot deploy in rapid fire range and the squad cannot be charged from a deep striking unit. It creates a larger area denial area around the army. Being able to extend their reserves denial area at the cost of a psychic power helps them mitigate their big weakness of not having access to cheap chaff bodies (even scouts).
akaean wrote: Warp Quake: "enemy units cannot be set up within 12" of the caster's unit until the end of the next psychic phase."
That way, Plasma cannot deploy in rapid fire range and the squad cannot be charged from a deep striking unit. It creates a larger area denial area around the army. Being able to extend their reserves denial area at the cost of a psychic power helps them mitigate their big weakness of not having access to cheap chaff bodies (even scouts).
You're attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Grey Knights don't have difficulty securing their own deployment zone because they ally in Imperial Guard. From a mono-GK standpoint, one tiny bubble won't really help, considering the deployment zone is very large and one GK unit can't possibly deny enough.
Additionally, after you drop in your terminators, it's not rapid fire plasma that's killing them. In a general sense, you don't see rapid fire overcharged plasma all that much in tournaments anymore. It's still there, but there's a whole host of attacks that just floor terminators. Every meta army has the tools needed to counter terminators, and Grey Knights, and these don't hinge on deep strike. Because of area denial being effectively free for Imperium (scout sentinels, ratlings, guardsmen) and for Chaos (Brimstones, Pox/Plague + Cultist combo) and for Eldar (Rangers), deep strike rapid fire plasma went the way of the dinosaur some time ago.
I would strongly recommend going to a tournament and running Grey Knights, or just going to tournaments in general for those that think minor changes like this actually would help. They wouldn't. The strong lists are using either high range with volume of shots or very fast units with decent range. The newer factions that rely on deep strike also wouldn't care about this change. Consider deathwatch, they're perfectly fine deep striking outside of 12", a kill team would still blast terminators off of the table with little difficulty. (Hint: Hellblasters will still rapid fire outside 12).
HOW is board control not a problem for the army? Allies are supposed to be a compliment not a crutch, so you saying to ally in guard says a lot about you.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: HOW is board control not a problem for the army? Allies are supposed to be a compliment not a crutch, so you saying to ally in guard says a lot about you.
Are we talking mono-GK or how GK are actually played? I am a tournament player.
Let's rewind.
Do you really think ONE UNIT having a 12" deny deep strike window, up from 9", will help in any way at all, for MONO-GK in regards to board control? They're already non-existent in this arena, by definition of being an elite army.
Further, are you capable of having a real discussion? My post is actually pretty well thought out and supports claims with real examples. Do the same. You think it's a good idea. SHOW ME WHY. I don't accept the fact that an idea is good based solely on the fact that it is endorsed by your user name. Can we have a civil discussion PLEASE?
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Bharring wrote: Same could be said about Harlies or Knights or any "Support" army.
Should GK be a support army is an entirely different question.
Although, either way, they're still notably weaker than other codexes.
The concept of an "army" being dictated by a single faction is not even applicable in the context of 8th edition. If we're discussing the viability of mono-GK, we need to back up, because they need MASSIVE buffs in that case. I don't see how you can give them the flexibility to function as a standalone army, while also keeping them overall balanced.
But hey, prove me wrong, show me a balanced elite army - Grey Knights, in this case -that has none of the problems of an elite army, all the benefits, and isn't blatantly OP.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: HOW is board control not a problem for the army? Allies are supposed to be a compliment not a crutch, so you saying to ally in guard says a lot about you.
Board control is not how elite armies win. Elite armies win by overpowering their opponent. Horde armies win via board control.
I'm very much of the belief that GKs don't have enough kit variety to be anything other than a support army. They're, what... 3? unique SKUs outside of special characters?
‘, pray tell?
