Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?
Honest question, with all the great HQs we have, and all the powerful support abilities they bring (Brother Captain giving our 2 DMG smite double the range ect) - why would you ever field a Champion?
He's a 90 point distraction. Not a bad deal compared to Crowe who borders on useless.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?
Honest question, with all the great HQs we have, and all the powerful support abilities they bring (Brother Captain giving our 2 DMG smite double the range ect) - why would you ever field a Champion?
I've used Crowe in the past when I wanted someone in a Razorback. If you know who you're facing, the Champions/Crowe are better than other choices against some armies, like Eldar, IG, and maybe Orcs.
As someone said above, against anything T4, a Champion with the Relic is actually better in CC than a BC with a hammer. So maybe in an all-comers list you still take the BC with the hammer because it's better all around. But there's still a place for the Champion as he isn't completely eclipsed by something else any longer.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?
Honest question, with all the great HQs we have, and all the powerful support abilities they bring (Brother Captain giving our 2 DMG smite double the range ect) - why would you ever field a Champion?
I've used Crowe in the past when I wanted someone in a Razorback.
Seeing how Tides don't effect our transports in any way that's just another reason not to field Crowe, no cost effective way to deliver him.
Not having Rites alone should be enough to disqualify him from almost every list, and that's just one of his problems.
It's not optimized to take advantage of any tides. Must have made a lot of deep strike charges in this tournament.
I'd guess it's probably taking heavy advantage of Tide of Shadows.
The more I look at the list the more it grows on me (and I'm fairly skeptical of Paladins!). I think that something like this and the 65-man PAGK lists are going to be our two main archetypes.
Seconded, the list looks strange.
I wonder about the initial setup of the units.
There are 6 Strike squads, three with the gate and three with the vortex.
I would deep strike the vortex units and set up the gate units regularly in turn 1.
The Paladin units have hammer-hand and so will be rather immobile on the board. The enemy will concentrate fire on them. If such a unit is set up regularly in turn 1, the enemy may try to withdraw his units from its fire range (24 + 5 = 29'').
Librarian and Chaplain are mandatory, while I would never use a named character.
Could somebody enlighten me about Voldus?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?
Honest question, with all the great HQs we have, and all the powerful support abilities they bring (Brother Captain giving our 2 DMG smite double the range ect) - why would you ever field a Champion?
I've used Crowe in the past when I wanted someone in a Razorback.
Seeing how Tides don't effect our transports in any way that's just another reason not to field Crowe, no cost effective way to deliver him.
Not having Rites alone should be enough to disqualify him from almost every list, and that's just one of his problems.
Yeah - vehicles having no tides pretty much means anything that is a vehicle or requires a vehicle to function is obsolete. A very poor choice by GW there. When the leaks first started coming out I was most excited about vorti razorbacks and then we found out that only infantry benefited from that shooty tide...now we have clarification that no vehicles get tides. So GK vehicles cost more to do less...this is great stuff from GW.
I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year. I like the idea of running 1 landraider and 2 Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights along with 8 or so paladins. Then just bring a Battalion with 3x strike squads, bring 2 librarians, draigo and a brother captain. You can put on a lot of pressure with this list and still have some solid anti tank with the landraider. At the very least it's a distraction carnifex.
Murrax9 wrote: I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year. I like the idea of running 1 landraider and 2 Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights along with 8 or so paladins. Then just bring a Battalion with 3x strike squads, bring 2 librarians, draigo and a brother captain. You can put on a lot of pressure with this list and still have some solid anti tank with the landraider. At the very least it's a distraction carnifex.
to be fair the guy playing that list in Australia was Erik Lathouras, he could enter a GT with a dried piece of toast in place of a 2000pt list and come out a winner. He is also interestingly enough on a podcast by thenormalblokes.com talking about that experience and list of match ups in that tournament plus a couple of the art of war podcasts on frontline gaming's channel speaking about his nid and genestealer cult lists and games. In all seriousness though you are right, so many people get uppity about whatever the new hotness or "must have" units are and forget any other type of tactical flexibility other units could contribute just because the majority says they aren't "meta". bit sad.
Murrax9 wrote: I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year.
You do know that a completely infantry GK list claimed a 6-0 victory in a tournament just on the weekend? The GK player was one of only 2 of the armies that were undefeated (the other was the Iron Hands army who came in first place).
I'm not going to say GMNDK are bad, though even the champion of the Aussie tournament you're referencing said in an interview, that if he was to revamp his GK list, the first thing to go would be his lone GMNDK...so competitively I certainly don't think they're essential anymore.
Murrax9 wrote: I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year. I like the idea of running 1 landraider and 2 Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights along with 8 or so paladins. Then just bring a Battalion with 3x strike squads, bring 2 librarians, draigo and a brother captain. You can put on a lot of pressure with this list and still have some solid anti tank with the landraider. At the very least it's a distraction carnifex.
I think the problem with Land Raider is that it could easily be shut down by charged units, with the things like White Scar bikers, Genestealers that have a potential charge threat range of 30" - 40" and other fast enough units like Lord Discord, Seeker bombs and Keeper of Secret, the Land Raider is as good as a dead weight in your army from Turn 1. This drawback has never been mitigated.
Murrax9 wrote: I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year. I like the idea of running 1 landraider and 2 Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights along with 8 or so paladins. Then just bring a Battalion with 3x strike squads, bring 2 librarians, draigo and a brother captain. You can put on a lot of pressure with this list and still have some solid anti tank with the landraider. At the very least it's a distraction carnifex.
I think the problem with Land Raider is that it could easily be shut down by charged units, with the things like White Scar bikers, Genestealers that have a potential charge threat range of 30" - 40" and other fast enough units like Lord Discord, Seeker bombs and Keeper of Secret, the Land Raider is as good as a dead weight in your army from Turn 1. This drawback has never been mitigated.
As long as you build around it, you can always Gate of Infinity the tagged Land Raider out. It might prevent you from Gating another unit, but in that case, you could build a list around Interceptors (who can just shunt) instead of relying on a Gate to get a Paladin bomb where it needs to be.
I think the problem with Land Raider is that it could easily be shut down by charged units, with the things like White Scar bikers, Genestealers that have a potential charge threat range of 30" - 40" and other fast enough units like Lord Discord, Seeker bombs and Keeper of Secret, the Land Raider is as good as a dead weight in your army from Turn 1. This drawback has never been mitigated.
This is why I love my Vortimer LR, go ahead, charge me :-), Now that the incinerators are 12" even units with good charge bonuses can't help but take those 2D6 auto-hits. Still my preferred way of delivering some paladin beat down, I fail way to many 9" charges, even with a re-roll. Next 2k game I get in I want to play the mechanized list I posted earlier. My game next week ended up being 1K, so I'll have to wait a bit.
As long as you build around it, you can always Gate of Infinity the tagged Land Raider out. It might prevent you from Gating another unit, but in that case, you could build a list around Interceptors (who can just shunt) instead of relying on a Gate to get a Paladin bomb where it needs to be.
I've tried this in the past, the main issue is the timing. Your guys are stuck in the LR until the next move phase, so your opponent has a full turn to react to their presence. Beyond the fact that your opponent has a full turn to prepare for whatever pops out of the LR, there's a lot that can happen to the Emperor's most hollowed transport in that one turn. Every time I've tried this, it has ended badly for me.
The way I have used this effectively in the past is to gate a LR full of threat behind my opponent's lines. It's tough to do, because you opponent has to have left enough space to fit a bloody Land Raider and it's 9" bubble behind them, but it is possible. When you can manage this it will generally force him to rip up whatever plans he had, as it is a threat that simply can't be ignored. Inevitably they split their forces and make your job easier.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I built a 1K list that I want to focus on using the Tides with, I think the extra MW will be the best, but the tide of shooty are an option when appropriate too. Let me know what you think.
Brother-Captain [9 PL, 118pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Blade of the Forsworn, Warlord, Warp Shaping
Nemesis Force Sword [1pts]: Nemesis Force Sword [1pts]
Psycannon [7pts]: Psycannon (Terminator) [7pts]
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 180pts]: Empyrean Domination, Warp Shaping
GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.
LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.
I can make a case for three of the regular ones with just Flamers and Fists. If you're trying to make use of tides though, they're an expensive investment with all the crap that Paladins got.
Murrax9 wrote: I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists.
I've been running a Dreadhammer Psy/Psi GMND in my Interceptor heavy list, even without Astral Aim - Edict gave them a little more flexibility.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tksolway wrote: I built a 1K list that I want to focus on using the Tides with, I think the extra MW will be the best, but the tide of shooty are an option when appropriate too. Let me know what you think.
I wouldn't run Draigo over Voldus in any list, we have other sources of rerolls now and Voldus is incredible in PA.
I wouldn't run Draigo over Voldus in any list, we have other sources of rerolls now and Voldus is incredible in PA.
Why do you run Voldus over Draigo? Is it just the additional power?
In this list I'd rather have the survivability and the better re-roll than the extra power. The only extra power I would give him is the one to reduce wound rolls, and he would just casting it on himself anyway. In this list Draigo will be babysitting the purgation squad so the full re-roll will be useful as well.
Plus Draigo's model is infinitely better, probably because he's snorting all that fine assed warp dust :-)
I wouldn't run Draigo over Voldus in any list, we have other sources of rerolls now and Voldus is incredible in PA.
Why do you run Voldus over Draigo? Is it just the additional power?
It's not just that, but this is a big one, we have new stratagems & spells (Ethereal Manipulation ect) that reroll hit increase or modify them.
Voldus has a lot more versatility and he costs 30 points less.
It's not just that, but this is a big one, we have new stratagems & spells (Ethereal Manipulation ect) that reroll hit increase or modify them.
Voldus has a lot more versatility and he costs 30 points less.
Well the only advantage he has is the one extra cast for 27 less points. I don't think Ethereal Manipulation is worth giving up the extra wound and better save. I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think that Voldus is an auto-include over Draigo. Draigo is still slightly better in CC, tougher, and hands out the full re-rolls. If that 27 points means the difference between another squad in your list, then it probably makes sense to go with Voldus over Draigo, because they are close in value. But if you can find those 27 points, I think Draigo is the better overall HQ.
If you are simply looking for more casting, then I would be dropping a Libby anyway, since you can throw the shard on him.
Not to keep beating a dead horse, but the other reason to not take a landraider as a firebase is that for 145 points you get basically 3/4 of the firepower with a missile-las Ven Dread, but the Ven dread can hide because it's a pretty small model. It also benefits from tides (boy do I miss those old psychic pilot rules...)
Ven Dreads can at least fight back if something goes into melee with them (still hitting like a wet noodle though). The Land Raider not getting a penalty to hit while moving also doesn't matter because the Ven Dread starts at BS2+ anyway.
Xenomancers wrote: GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.
LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.
Xenomancers wrote: GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.
LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.
Do GMDKs not get buffed by Tides?
With half of the Tides only. Tide of Shadows and Tide of Escalation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Makes me wonder though, if GMNDK were also effected by the Tide of Convergence, would people be spamming 2-3 of them, instead of say 1-2 Paladin bombs?
Xenomancers wrote: GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.
LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.
Do GMDKs not get buffed by Tides?
With half of the Tides only. Tide of Shadows and Tide of Escalation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Makes me wonder though, if GMNDK were also effected by the Tide of Convergence, would people be spamming 2-3 of them, instead of say 1-2 Paladin bombs?
Makes me wonder though, if GMNDK were also effected by the Tide of Convergence, would people be spamming 2-3 of them, instead of say 1-2 Paladin bombs?
Or a combination of both?
Half of the tides work only for infantry models.
I think that was to limit the GMNDK clutch/spam. Seeing as how:
- 7ed = Codex: Nemesis Dreadknight
- 8ed = Codex: Grandmaster in Nemesis Dreadknight
- PA4 = Supplement: Grandmaster in Nem....nope. Not anymore....
Xenomancers wrote: GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.
LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.
Do GMDKs not get buffed by Tides?
With half of the Tides only. Tide of Shadows and Tide of Escalation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Makes me wonder though, if GMNDK were also effected by the Tide of Convergence, would people be spamming 2-3 of them, instead of say 1-2 Paladin bombs?
Or a combination of both?
Half of the tides work only for infantry models.
Which is fine because only half of them are worth using anyway. Shooting Tide doesn't count in the fact we don't have great heavy weapon saturation, and while rerolling 1s to wound in melee for everyone is amazing by itself (that's half a free Lt. for everyone), the survivability offered by the Survival Tide is just too great, and getting off easy Mortal wounds...well that's a bit more important.
Shooting tide was the pivotal point of Lawrence double paladin bomb list. One with full heavy weapons, the other with full stormbolters for Psybolt Ammunition stratagem.
Murrax9 wrote: I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year.
You do know that a completely infantry GK list claimed a 6-0 victory in a tournament just on the weekend? The GK player was one of only 2 of the armies that were undefeated (the other was the Iron Hands army who came in first place).
I'm not going to say GMNDK are bad, though even the champion of the Aussie tournament you're referencing said in an interview, that if he was to revamp his GK list, the first thing to go would be his lone GMNDK...so competitively I certainly don't think they're essential anymore.
Lol I'm a little embarrassed because I remember him saying that on the Frontline Gaming podcast. Well, I still think they are good! Grey Knights don't have a lot of options, I just think astral aiming land raiders and GMNDK are the two things that GK have that are really original and unique.
I tend to spend my turns alternating between mortals and shooting tides. My 10 man strike squads doing the lifting with psybolt and my pallies with my psilencers.
Sorry for the noob question, but does armoured resilience modify poison's 4+ to a 5+? Or can poison not be modified? I could not find a definitive answer.
Sorry for the noob question, but does armoured resilience modify poison's 4+ to a 5+? Or can poison not be modified? I could not find a definitive answer.
Cheers
It would indeed. It applies a -1 to wound rolls, which the Poison's 4+ to-wound is.
ok, now have 5 solid games useing Greyknights 2.0 Game 1, used ITC rules, vs Chaos-iron warriors, Greyknights won, Game 2, used ITC rules, vs Eldar (Ynnari) - was close at first, but then round 3, managed to totally shut down his psychic stuff, and manage to land my own psychic bomb, Greyknights won Game 3, used ITC rules, vs Dark Angels, Greyknights won Game 4, used standard GW missions from CA 19, vs Necrons. this game ended in a DRAW, opponent rolled at end of turn 5 to see if game ended, it ended, however, we did a rough calculation, if had gone to 6 or 7, game would have gone to the Greyknights, was a totally awsome game, and extremly close Game 5, used standard GW missions from CA 19, vs Chaos-iron warriors again, Grey Knights won
Conclusions I have drawn from these games 1- in game 5, I changed up army a bit, and decided to try out useing 2x Grandmaster Nemisis Dreadknights (for the past year, I have not used them at all, my army has been 100% infantry), conclusion, GMNDK suck donkey balls, big fat hairy swety donkey balls. they are going on the shelf, permanently
2- Greyknights are the single hardest army I have ever played, the amount of synergy between units and psychic powers is insane, I have to concentrate on each and every decision I make, I have to concentrate on each and every move I make to ensure that all units are properly supporting each other with the various psychic powers and buffs, I end every game with a slight headache from such intense concentration, but damned have I been having fun
3- the Paladin bomb is awsome, use it smartly, it can be a massive distraction carnifex and draw a lot of the opponents attention
4- useing a librarian with innerflame as an assassination tactic is AWSOME, however, choose your target wisely, in game 4, I had the choice to destroy a squad of oblits or totally kill his warlord, I decided to kill the warlord, for both the VP and the psychological aspect, hind sight, I realy should have targeted the oblits as they continued to do major damage, I won the game inspite of this, but it was damned close there for a bit
5 - except for game 5 were I tried out the dreadknights, it looks like my army will remain the same no matter what opponent I am playing, only the tactics will change, what psy powers I choose and how I utilize them, and relics might change
Army consists of 2x Battalions combined forces total Voldus Draigo Captain - warlord - first to the fray Librarian - relic - shard
6x Strike squads with Falchions 1x Paladin ancient 1x Apothecary 1x Paladin squad (10 paladins) with Falchions 2x Interceptor squads with Falchions (a few hammers scatters on the various "sergeants") total 1933 points 13 command points
hard to talk about tactics, as I used different tactics vs different opponents.. some times I had the paladins and some characters in reserve, other times I had strike squads in reserve, depends heavily on terrain and mission as to what I choose to place in reserve and what I choose to place on the board
I totally forgot about the game I had vs Eldar (ynnari), (edited my above post to include it ) not sure if I should count that one, yes, I won, but he was trying out a completely new army for himself, he normaly plays craftworld list, but wanted to try Ynnari, I managed to create insane havoc for him during his psychic phase, denying a lot of his stuff,
Greyknights will do quite well vs Eldar and Thousand sons, because of the army wide +1 to cast, +1 to deny the witch, Librarians can get +2 to deny the witch if within 12" (psychic hood) and nearly every unit in a greyknight army can deny at least once (and there are stratagems to help with deny as well )
Gunrunner1775 wrote: I totally forgot about the game I had vs Eldar (ynnari), (edited my above post to include it )
not sure if I should count that one, yes, I won, but he was trying out a completely new army for himself, he normaly plays craftworld list, but wanted to try Ynnari,
I managed to create insane havoc for him during his psychic phase, denying a lot of his stuff,
Greyknights will do quite well vs Eldar and Thousand sons, because of the army wide +1 to cast, +1 to deny the witch, Librarians can get +2 to deny the witch if within 12" (psychic hood) and nearly every unit in a greyknight army can deny at least once (and there are stratagems to help with deny as well )
That's great to hear. I picked up the new book over the weekend but haven't had time to really digest it yet. I am so happy though - my GK have been collecting dust for over two years now. Can't wait to roll them out and, hopefully, at least not get trounced.
Army consists of 2x Battalions
combined forces total
Voldus
Draigo
Captain - warlord - first to the fray
Librarian - relic - shard
6x Strike squads with Falchions
1x Paladin ancient
1x Apothecary
1x Paladin squad (10 paladins) with Falchions
2x Interceptor squads with Falchions
(a few hammers scatters on the various "sergeants")
total 1933 points
13 command points
Do you run any special weapons, or is it just storm bolters? Do you use the shooty tide at all? If so how have you been using it?
I haven't had enough games yet, but in the two I've played so far I'm leaning towards mostly MW and shadows, with a nip into the shooty tide if I have a 10 man squad that can fire souped up bolters at a bunch of primaris or something.
zero special weapons, stormbolters only (I did mess with psilencers some )
as for which Tide, it depends on the tactical situation, I always start in Tide of Shadows
Gunrunner1775 wrote: zero special weapons, stormbolters only (I did mess with psilencers some )
as for which Tide, it depends on the tactical situation, I always start in Tide of Shadows
Do you find the Apothecary and the Ancient that valuable? Removing them you could probably git in a Fast Attack formation for an additional +1 CP, and another Interceptor squad. I haven't been playing with those two characters much simple because you can get another squad for their cost.
Hulksmash wrote: Apoth is generally an inner fire bomb. Ends up normally being far more useful than another 5 dudes.
I can understand that, but his list is using the Libby as the Fire Bomb. I was wondering if he figured he got enough traction out of those characters abilities with his Paladin Bomb to be worth it. (I assume they were popping out with the bomb)
I run an apothecary pretty much 100% of the time, but I only use him to heal stuff. I don’t like risking a 50/50 chance on the revive to not be able to charge or use spells unless it’s a game changer to get a Paladin back.
Also, I’ll stick psilencers anywhere and everywhere they’ll fit. They’re crazy good for any situation.
as far as apothecary and ancient, I very much prefer to have back up redundancy in psy powers, multiple characters will have the same psy powers
example of how I have used them
paladins+captain+ancient+apothecary deepstrike in
Paladins - cast hammerhand on themselves
Apothecary - casts armored resilience on paladins
Ancient - casts astral aim on paladins
Captain - casts sanctuary on paladins
from my back field support I will have another unit cast gate of infinity on voldus or draigo and toss them forward near the paladins
- captain has first to the fray, so paladins can re-roll failed charges, even if they fail the charge, they are a monster of a unit to shift from what ever location I droped them
you assign relics / psy powers at beginning of game, so this is only one example, I have changed up quite a bit every game useing different units and different combos
Well, I've finally watched the battle aftermath of Lawrence Baker (GT, Bournemouth).
He's a nice guy and made definitely a great job.
Now I have a better idea how to run this list.
The two large Paladin squads and the characters play the major role
and the buffing of the Paladins is key.
I played in a 1000pt 4-round tournament this past weekend using CA19 Schemes of War. You build a deck of (minimum) 18 cards and each mission has a little twist.
I went back and forth between Paladins and NDKs for this low point setting. One GMDK and two NDKs has 6 more wounds, a bit better invuln, higher toughness, and is easier to get into terrain for Shadows (instead of having 10 40mm bases touching terrain AND in coherency, I only need 3 120mm ovals touching terrain anywhere on the board).
Pallies have WAY more attacks, I could take special weapons, and I can do crazy things with strats.
While the Pallies have higher damage output, they also have insane CP usage--and with only 8CP (+ ~4 from psychic) I decided to go with the more survivable NDKs.
My list was:
Shard Libby
Matrix Libby (backfield Dominus support)
GMDK, psilencer psycannon hammer, Warlord (Loremaster with Purge and Vortex)
7xGKSS with psilencer
5xGKSS with psilencer
5xGKSS
2xNDK with fists, incinerator, teleport
Game 1
Spoiler:
Game 1 was against DE Venoms and a Razorwing. He was insanely mobile. 3x Venoms full of Warrior poison. Raider with disruptors. Razorwing with disruptors. 5x mandrakes in DS and another merc assault unit.
I shuffled the terrain into a 4x4 table and my opponent agreed, even though we were playing on 6x4. This did a lot to negate his mobility.
DE went first. His weapons bounced off my GMDK--all that poison only wounds on a 6+ against vehicles, and with -1 to hit from Shadows I made the four or five saves required. On my counter-punch I stayed in Shadows, dropped a Vortex onto a Venom and hit three units (didn't quite manage to kill his Archon, but it was close; and mortals are a good way to get through that 2++). The Vortex killed the Venom and he disembarked the Warriors. The follow-up Purge on them killed the squad.
On his turn he again bounced off my 1+/3++, but after some chatting with me I convinced him to shoot at least SOME of his poison at GKSS, and he killed two. Yay for him! His Mandrakes dropped in and failed a charge.
I held the middle and dropped in the NDKs, Libby, and GKSS, scoring Linebreaker (or whatever the card is called) for d3 points. Switched to Escalation and cleared out a surprising number of models. Got his Archon Warlord with a combo of smites and incinerators through some clever positioning. Cleared out the Madrakes with GKSS shooting.
On his turn the Razorwing swung around to get my GKSS in the backfield. Drazar (or whatever the named guy is) one-shotted a NDK with his fight twice D3 weapon!
By this point he had Drazar, the Flyer, a Venom, and a squad of Warriors. I had lost a NDK and four GKSS, leaving me with the bulk of my army. He was winning by about 5pts!
On my turn, bottom of T3, I gated the GMDK onto an objective I wanted to hold. I did more damage with smites, although quite a few things were out of range, damn those DE engines! I charged up the NDK guns to take out the Razorwing, but between the GMDK and some SBs, only did six wounds, which was disappointing--I had thought it would be more!
The rest of the turns were me mopping up and him running away. I killed the Flyer and the Warriors with mortals. I killed the Venom with bolters. I killed Drazar on T6 with a GoI charge. Killing that guy got me 8 points, somehow, and with First Strike, Linebreaker, and Warlord, that put me solidly in the lead.
That NDK was the only unit he killed. He only killed a few more PAGK throughout the game (5, I think, with one of those from Perils). I was also surprisingly mobile, which he wasn't expecting. With a T2 deep beta strike and GoI every turn, I could get where I wanted.
I did around 40 mortals throughout the course of the game. Even "wasting" them on chaff, bypassing wounding and saving is a big deal.
Game 2
Spoiler:
Game 2 was against Valhallan Guard. 2x Tank Commanders, two Commanders and two Platoon leaders. Six guard squads, an Astropath, and two Hellhounds. One mortar and one missile squad. (The missile squad gets +1 to hit and +1 to wound every turn, through orders and a strat. This is pretty good.)
I got first turn against his castle. GMDK Gates and gets super Vortex on a Hellhound, which takes six. Astropath dies. Russ takes three wounds. Infantry squad loses two. I then Purge the Hellhound, but roll poorly and it loses only two more.
In shooting, I kill the Hellhound, which explodes: a few wounds on the Russ and some more infantry models. I fail the charge on the Russ.
His entire army shoots at the GMDK, killing it despite Shadow and a 3++. Just bad rolls on my part, nothing else I could've done. He scores a lot.
On T2 top I drop in the Libby to Inner Fire the other Russ, doing 9 wounds. I drop a NDK to Vortex the wounded Russ, which also hits the second Hellhound (he didn't learn). It's down to three wounds, just like the other one. I drop the GKSS and the second NDK to take out some infantry squads who had advanced into the middle. Swap to Escalation. Smites hit chaff. My Incinerator gets a single attack through his Russ save, doing 2D and putting it at ONE WOUND.
Bottom T2 his Hellhound whiffs and kills a single Striker. He heals his Russ back to 2, and Valhalla counts that as 4 wounds on the damage chart, so he's doing well still. I do poorly at surviving again, with a NDK taking 8 damage from a combo of Russ and missile squad. My suicide Libby dies, predictably. He's pulling ahead in points.
Top T3 I finish up that damned Russ with a Smite. I move forward with the other NDK and flame the Mortar squad, wiping it out (d6 hits, wound on 2+, only a 6+ save, each fail is a dead base).
The rest of the game is Guard shooting at PAGK. I do kill the second Russ, but that Hellhound is largely undamaged. I smite snipe his Warlord, but the end score is 25-21, his lead.
I think I should've concentrated on those missiles more, they were deadly. This is a game where Paladins would've been better than NDKs for the increased firepower.
Game 3
Spoiler:
Game 3 was against Orks, a mix of Bad Moon Lootas and Killa Kans. There were two Big Meks with Shokk guns, one of them had a crazy relic version, some Grots, and a dragster.
I went first again, and T1 I dropped the GMDK and hit his dragster Purge, doing quite a few wounds. Then did super Vortex on it, killing it; hitting the Deff Dred (leaving it with 2 wounds); killing several lootas, killing quite a few grots, and putting the artillery gun down several wounds.
Bottom T1, the Ork shot lots of stuff into the GMDK, who died again, sadly. But he soaked up the Big Meks and the Lootas. The grot kans killed two GKSS models.
Top T2, NDKs come down threatening his front line. Libby bombs the Warlord, doing waaaay more than the 4 wounds necessary to kill him. GKSS sits between two distant grot units with the intent to shooty kill one and charge the other. I stay in Shadows. First NDK finishes off the Dread's two wounds and kills more Lootas with a Vortex, while his incinerator kills the artillery gun. GKSS squad Gates forward and mops up the remaining Lootas.
At this point Ork player concedes. All he had left was some Kans (which he could foresee would die to mortals and NDK charges on the next turn), one unit of grots (which would die to SBs and charges next turn), and a Big Mek. I kept playing the cards and got 28VP
Fun games. I was hopeful that I would pull into 2nd place with 3 wins and 1 loss, but the TO cancelled the fourth game and we ended there. Also starting an hour late made this a poorly-run tournament.
Things I took away: if you do choose to run NDKs (and at small points they're a good investment), ALWAYS tag the terrain for Shadows. It's easy to do.
Using Psychic Channeling is a tough call between Vortex and Inner Fire. I think I'd rather have a certain Vortex than a higher Fire, most of the time. But if I have something like a Knight or Gulliman, I'll probably want a lot of dice for Fire.
I was on the fence for taking Matrix on my backfield manipulation Libby, but that relic helped avoid Perils three or four times, and that was valuable.
So far I'm 3 for 3 with GK post RoD. Really really enjoying them again and will probably be putting the Aeldari on the shelf for a while to give the guys in Grey a serious shot at some upcoming tournaments.
I'm finding that my overall battle plan is to play very cagey and a tight game. I'm happy to give up hold more for turns 1-3 but I'm usually keeping everything out of LOS and maximizing Edict Imperator and Astral Aim to clear out 1-2 units for the first 3 turns of the game with Psychic Onslaught on Purgation Squad and Psybolt on my Pally blob or Interceptors. If possible, I try to take some ruins or a magic box that gives me good coverage of the board with the Pallies and/or Interceptors but I am not afraid to shunt my interceptors to have them use Psybolt on turn 1 if it gives me vital board control.
This is usually giving me the kill and kill more which is helping me stay close on the primaries and inching closer to the kill secondaries I take.
Turns 3-4 is when I'll start to commit my Pally blob and then switch over to Tide of Escalation to do some major damage with smites It's really at that point where I'm starting to gate around to steal objectives and I'll even use Dynamic Insertion to do so.
I'm typically winning about 2-8 points scoring between 26-32 points in ITC format.
Once I've got my order of operations down on my psychic phase, I really started to fly with these guys.
Hey guys, just wanted to share my latest experience with the new and improved GK! I played against Alpha Legion Possessed bomb last night. His list was:
Bro Captain with Psycannon, Warlord Draigo Libby with Shard (Inner Fire, Manipulation) Chappie (Litanies 2&3, Resilience) Chappie (Litanies 5&6, Resilience) Libby with Perils Stave, Shaper powers 6x5 Strikers, all with a psycannon Apothecary 10x Pallies, 4 psilencers, 4 falchions, 2 staves, 2 halberds 10x GKI, storm bolters
I won't go into a play-by-play, but the rundown was Pallies can kill Possessed, even at -2 to hit, with Draigo rerolls, ignore modifiers prayer, Convergence psilencers, and rerolling wounds in the fight phase. He lost around two models to smites, and then four to five more from shooting, and then the remaining ones to Nemesis weapons. The Tzaangors killed a single Chaplain on the charge, didn't kill anything when fighting again, and got wrecked by four characters in return, losing seven models to morale and then getting smites until they died. His Oblits smashed down behind my line and killed my Shaper, but in turn took three smites (for 9 damage) from characters and got finished off by several psycannons. Inner Fire suicide is very fun, but also costs 4CP (Deep Strike within 3", cast next power at +1, extend range 6", cast on 3d6 pick the highest) and may not be worth it. I killed a Daemon Prince, survived with one wound (Daemon perils), and then got shot by cultists and failed my final save. Still really cool. My GKI unit always dies, because it's PAGK that shunts aggressively. I'm considering swapping them out for a 5-man Paladin unit, but then I wouldn't have a unit for Psybolts.
We played ITC and I took Old School (First Strike, Warlord, Linebreaker, Last Strike), Behind Enemy Lines (get a point T1 if you have a unit in the enemy's deployment; get two points T2-6 if you have three units in the enemy deployment), and Reaper (get a point for every 20 wounds you cause). I maxed out those really easily, and had him tabled by T4. I didn't do quite as well with the holding objectives, but that was because I was constantly moving to shoot at Characters (he had seven, just like me). I got Kill More every turn, one turn getting SEVEN unit kills.
I am still learning how to juggle the Tides, as I haven't had much practice yet, but GK seems powerful enough to forgive some small mistakes, especially in a good matchup like against Daemons. For example, I could've been in Escalation and with each smite killed two Possessed models. I didn't do that ever, instead had Convergence up T2-4, and STILL managed to kill both a scary Possessed bomb and an Obliterator squad.
Has anyone else had success (or failure) running NO Paladins? I've been using 30 interceptors, 25 strikes and 2x5-man purgators plus a Ven Dread and some HQs and it's been doing pretty well, it has a lot of mobility and can overwhelm weak spots. Another list suggested by Nick Nanavatti on his podcast/website was to use a single Paladin blob to screen as many characters as you possibly can take for an untargetable smite castle.
Obviously double Paladin has been doing quite well and is a great list, I'm just curious if anyone has tried deviating from it in a competitive environment.
Obviously double Paladin has been doing quite well and is a great list, I'm just curious if anyone has tried deviating from it in a competitive environment.
Two large Paladin units certainly have their merits.
Lawrence Baker has built his list around these units,
with both units at the board and 6 small GKSS deep striking in round two.
He usually gated one unit (10 stormbolters) forward while the other unit (4 psycannons) moved forward with the characters.
This can be a bit tricky as they will come heavily under fire.
greyknight12 wrote: Has anyone else had success (or failure) running NO Paladins? I've been using 30 interceptors, 25 strikes and 2x5-man purgators plus a Ven Dread and some HQs and it's been doing pretty well, it has a lot of mobility and can overwhelm weak spots. Another list suggested by Nick Nanavatti on his podcast/website was to use a single Paladin blob to screen as many characters as you possibly can take for an untargetable smite castle.
Obviously double Paladin has been doing quite well and is a great list, I'm just curious if anyone has tried deviating from it in a competitive environment.
Yeah, I've had success [like 5-0-1] with strikes, interceptors, dreadknight, & vendread, particularly in CA missions where just zoning out with interceptors and frontloading aggression wins the game quickly before the enemy can start dismantling the strikes. Stuff dies fast, but i score points to take a lead enough to win and have enough capability to snipe out the units to keep them down on scoring until its too late. That said, I wouldn't run this competitively because I think it's not very good, it's basically sacrificing units for points and capitalizing on the fact that the CA missions reward very frontloaded melee aggression and have very weak comeback potential.
If you're interested in reading about Grey Knights tactica and strategies, we posted some thoughts to the site. Let us know if you have any feedback or other ideas!
greyknight12 wrote: Has anyone else had success (or failure) running NO Paladins? I've been using 30 interceptors, 25 strikes and 2x5-man purgators plus a Ven Dread and some HQs and it's been doing pretty well, it has a lot of mobility and can overwhelm weak spots. Another list suggested by Nick Nanavatti on his podcast/website was to use a single Paladin blob to screen as many characters as you possibly can take for an untargetable smite castle.
Obviously double Paladin has been doing quite well and is a great list, I'm just curious if anyone has tried deviating from it in a competitive environment.
I honestly think there's a lot of play without Paladins. Interceptors are great and their ability to Shunt into position can be huge for setting up big alpha/beta strikes. Also, for 90ish points, Purgation squads could almost be trade pieces to take out key enemy units. Psychic Onslaught with Bring Down the Beast will take down just about anything.
Soup player here. I wanted to throw my 2 cents in regarding the comments about Crowe not being any good.
I can understand that in a pure GK army, he pretty much just provides more of the same. A bunch of Str4 Ap- attacks, a couple of powers, reduced smite range. He's not providing much.
However, the moment you take him in a Soup army, he is incredible value. He doesn't care about losing Tides. I bring him in a GK Supreme Command along with Paladin Ancient with the relic banner to complement my Guard.
I let this GK Supreme Command stand amongst 90 Guardsmen and dare anything to charge them, who will promptly eat 2d6 mortal wounds in my next Psychic phase (one of which is a great use for a Command Reroll) followed by other mortal wound powers and a counter-charge.
Last weekend I rolled a 5 and a 6 for their smites, and combined with a couple other powers from the Supreme Command, wiped an entire 6-man White Scars Aggressors squad in my psychic phase that had outflanked, shot up and charged a bunch of guardsmen.
With that major threat eliminated in the psychic phase, My Tank Commanders and Artillery Aces were free to bombard the rest of his army.
Had a game against triple Alpha Legion Deredeo on the weekend. Alpha Battalion (Apostle, Disco, Nurgle Prince, 10x3 Cultists, 10xBerzerks in Rhino, 3x Butcher Deredeos), TSons Magic Supreme (Prince, Ahriman on foot, Sorcerer), and Daemon Battalion (Slerald with Gem, Harpist, 3x3 Nurglings).
It was a tough slog. I'm thinking that three tides is too many to juggle, and I'd like to just have two to switch between--Shadows and Escalation.
ITC scoring, I won 25-24 with a single Librarian on the board.
The worst part of the game was when I didn't deny his bubble smite that hit all my characters. Next turn I had Perils due to the Harpist and killed several of my wounded characters.
Interestingly I had a much better time against a Possessed bomb the week previous.
slobulous wrote: Soup player here. I wanted to throw my 2 cents in regarding the comments about Crowe not being any good.
I can understand that in a pure GK army, he pretty much just provides more of the same. A bunch of Str4 Ap- attacks, a couple of powers, reduced smite range. He's not providing much.
However, the moment you take him in a Soup army, he is incredible value. He doesn't care about losing Tides. I bring him in a GK Supreme Command along with Paladin Ancient with the relic banner to complement my Guard.
I let this GK Supreme Command stand amongst 90 Guardsmen and dare anything to charge them, who will promptly eat 2d6 mortal wounds in my next Psychic phase (one of which is a great use for a Command Reroll) followed by other mortal wound powers and a counter-charge.
Last weekend I rolled a 5 and a 6 for their smites, and combined with a couple other powers from the Supreme Command, wiped an entire 6-man White Scars Aggressors squad in my psychic phase that had outflanked, shot up and charged a bunch of guardsmen.
With that major threat eliminated in the psychic phase, My Tank Commanders and Artillery Aces were free to bombard the rest of his army.
You could've just brought Purifiers instead which do more for the price. Crowe is bad. Period.
You could've just brought Purifiers instead which do more for the price. Crowe is bad. Period.
The entire point of the tactic I explained, in which I used Crowe and a few other select characters to great effect in a soup army, is having untargetable mortal wound bombs hidden amongst 90 fearless guardsmen. Purifiers are not characters and would be immediately killed by thunderfire cannons etc. They cannot perform the same function by their very nature
You could've just brought Purifiers instead which do more for the price. Crowe is bad. Period.
The entire point of the tactic I explained, in which I used Crowe and a few other select characters to great effect in a soup army, is having untargetable mortal wound bombs hidden amongst 90 fearless guardsmen. Purifiers are not characters and would be immediately killed by thunderfire cannons etc. They cannot perform the same function by their very nature
Purifiers would at least contribute firepower. Crowe having zero range makes him wasted points of sitting there looking pretty.
Also at least Purifiers can get the 4++ on demand, though the use is questionable. Still better than Crowe though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Purifiers would at least contribute firepower. Crowe having zero range makes him wasted points of sitting there looking pretty.
Also at least Purifiers can get the 4++ on demand, though the use is questionable. Still better than Crowe though.
Crowe comes stock with 2+ armor, 4++ invul, and has Character protection... comparing his durability to a 5 man purifier squad is laughable.
"Zero range" is also incorrect ; he has a storm bolter, and 2+ ballistic skill... However contributing a few more storm bolter shots is not even his purpose so that point is just irrelevant...
Are you really judging HQ characters by their shooting ability?
Crowe is a really cheap and durable mortal wound hose for his points and can add a lot to other imperial factions in a small GK detachment
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Purifiers would at least contribute firepower. Crowe having zero range makes him wasted points of sitting there looking pretty.
Also at least Purifiers can get the 4++ on demand, though the use is questionable. Still better than Crowe though.
Crowe comes stock with 2+ armor, 4++ invul, and has Character protection... comparing his durability to a 5 man purifier squad is laughable.
"Zero range" is also incorrect ; he has a storm bolter, and 2+ ballistic skill... However contributing a few more storm bolter shots is not even his purpose so that point is just irrelevant...
Are you really judging HQ characters by their shooting ability?
Crowe is a really cheap and durable mortal wound hose for his points and can add a lot to other imperial factions in a small GK detachment
His purpose is mortal wounds according to you, which he is terrible for.
Indeed, some nice thoughts showing that GK have gotten an edge.
Thanks! it's meant to be a 101. There's a ton of nuances to GK (and it's our first video so hopefully we'll keep improving for future tactica videos). We have a really nice battle report to showcase some different tricks coming later this week or early next week.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Purifiers would at least contribute firepower. Crowe having zero range makes him wasted points of sitting there looking pretty.
Also at least Purifiers can get the 4++ on demand, though the use is questionable. Still better than Crowe though.
Crowe comes stock with 2+ armor, 4++ invul, and has Character protection... comparing his durability to a 5 man purifier squad is laughable.
"Zero range" is also incorrect ; he has a storm bolter, and 2+ ballistic skill... However contributing a few more storm bolter shots is not even his purpose so that point is just irrelevant...
Are you really judging HQ characters by their shooting ability?
Crowe is a really cheap and durable mortal wound hose for his points and can add a lot to other imperial factions in a small GK detachment
I'd give up trying to convince him. He doesn't seem to be the type of person that can change their mind, about anything. You could restate your valid reasons any number of times and it's just wasted air.
undertow wrote: I'd give up trying to convince him. He doesn't seem to be the type of person that can change their mind, about anything. You could restate your valid reasons any number of times and it's just wasted air.
Yeah I hear ya, but it's less about trying to convince and more about correcting the straight-up misinformation being posted that seems to deliberately ignore empirical data. But I digress, you are right, it seems like debating with a Flat Earther at this point
undertow wrote: I'd give up trying to convince him. He doesn't seem to be the type of person that can change their mind, about anything. You could restate your valid reasons any number of times and it's just wasted air.
Yeah I hear ya, but it's less about trying to convince and more about correcting the straight-up misinformation being posted that seems to deliberately ignore empirical data. But I digress, you are right, it seems like debating with a Flat Earther at this point
Your data is bad is the problem. Crowe has not been good since the start of the edition and still isn't good. A stupid short range Smite, a lousy weapon that doesn't hit anything we can't already hit, and no helpful aura makes him pointless, even as an allied...tool, which he doesn't really do.
undertow wrote: I'd give up trying to convince him. He doesn't seem to be the type of person that can change their mind, about anything. You could restate your valid reasons any number of times and it's just wasted air.
Yeah I hear ya, but it's less about trying to convince and more about correcting the straight-up misinformation being posted that seems to deliberately ignore empirical data. But I digress, you are right, it seems like debating with a Flat Earther at this point
D6MW + 4 SB shots + potentially 10 attacks (Master Swordsman) + potentially 10 more attacks (heroic sacrifice), on a 2+/4++/character model that can cast 2 psychic powers + 1 DTW.....ONLY for 80 points...yeah he ain't terrible. Not by a long shot.
Not been keeping up with the game after taking a break for about 18 months, and debating bringing back my scions + ordos militant army.
From reading around it sounds like Grey Knights have been given a bit of a boost, but am I right in understand that is mostly in the form of Tides which wouldn't be available to an allied detachment of grey knights?
With this in mind what would be the best way to go about a 750pt detachment of Grey knights, I used to run an outrider of GMDK with 3 units of Interceptors with one unit fleshed out to 10 men with falchions to make the most use of psybolt ammo and psychic onslaught. It's looking like this might still be optimal for my circumstances (2 battalions of scions for cp) but struggling to get my head round all the changes.
ragnorack1 wrote: Not been keeping up with the game after taking a break for about 18 months, and debating bringing back my scions + ordos militant army.
From reading around it sounds like Grey Knights have been given a bit of a boost, but am I right in understand that is mostly in the form of Tides which wouldn't be available to an allied detachment of grey knights?
With this in mind what would be the best way to go about a 750pt detachment of Grey knights, I used to run an outrider of GMDK with 3 units of Interceptors with one unit fleshed out to 10 men with falchions to make the most use of psybolt ammo and psychic onslaught. It's looking like this might still be optimal for my circumstances (2 battalions of scions for cp) but struggling to get my head round all the changes.
Basically, Grey Knights are competitive if you are running them pure, because of tides, and character special rules. A lot of this has to do with smite spam and the way invulnerable saves now work, and the fact they get really nasty bonuses against heretic/daemon armies. Basically people are running Paladin bombs; just squads of pallies with HQ. It's very hard to counter, because you need to set up space marines armies specifically to do it and competitive players won't do this as to do so makes their forces very gimped against everything else in the meta.
Just started collecting mine. Draigo is still a no-go, far too overpriced. I'm not seeing many people using Dreadknights, I'm unsure of the reason for this. Maybe it's because it's simply better to have as many Paladins as possible.
undertow wrote: I'd give up trying to convince him. He doesn't seem to be the type of person that can change their mind, about anything. You could restate your valid reasons any number of times and it's just wasted air.
Yeah I hear ya, but it's less about trying to convince and more about correcting the straight-up misinformation being posted that seems to deliberately ignore empirical data. But I digress, you are right, it seems like debating with a Flat Earther at this point
D6MW + 4 SB shots + potentially 10 attacks (Master Swordsman) + potentially 10 more attacks (heroic sacrifice), on a 2+/4++/character model that can cast 2 psychic powers + 1 DTW.....ONLY for 80 points...yeah he ain't terrible. Not by a long shot.
LOL let's actually break that down correctly:
1. D6 Smite at 3"
2. 2 or 4 Storm Bolter shots, let's not pretend he gets all of them
3. 10 attacks at S4 AP-, which the army already has in spades
4. Voldus is already casting more and comes with a better weapon, or you can take the one relic Librarians get.
A regular Champ with a relic at his points goes a lot further.
ragnorack1 wrote: Not been keeping up with the game after taking a break for about 18 months, and debating bringing back my scions + ordos militant army.
From reading around it sounds like Grey Knights have been given a bit of a boost, but am I right in understand that is mostly in the form of Tides which wouldn't be available to an allied detachment of grey knights?
With this in mind what would be the best way to go about a 750pt detachment of Grey knights, I used to run an outrider of GMDK with 3 units of Interceptors with one unit fleshed out to 10 men with falchions to make the most use of psybolt ammo and psychic onslaught. It's looking like this might still be optimal for my circumstances (2 battalions of scions for cp) but struggling to get my head round all the changes.
Basically, Grey Knights are competitive if you are running them pure, because of tides, and character special rules. A lot of this has to do with smite spam and the way invulnerable saves now work, and the fact they get really nasty bonuses against heretic/daemon armies. Basically people are running Paladin bombs; just squads of pallies with HQ. It's very hard to counter, because you need to set up space marines armies specifically to do it and competitive players won't do this as to do so makes their forces very gimped against everything else in the meta.
Just started collecting mine. Draigo is still a no-go, far too overpriced. I'm not seeing many people using Dreadknights, I'm unsure of the reason for this. Maybe it's because it's simply better to have as many Paladins as possible.
Cheers for the advice, hmm looks like my force still won't be particularly competitive as I'd like to keep it mixed, glad they've made it better for GK players in general though.
I think I'm hoping in vain but I'm guessing the "Warp shaping" psychic power does nothing if you're not pure and can't be abused by an allied detachment for use of Tides for a turn?
Warp Shaping does nothing, as nothing in your army has Tides. For your 750 pts, I’d actually suggest a supreme command detachment of 3 HQs and 10 paladins (all storm bolters). You could also go with a patrol (1 HQ, strike squad, paladins) or Vanguard (Chaplain, paladins, Ven Dread, apothecary). The “Paladin bomb” doesn’t really need the tides much, most of it’s durability and CC punch comes from stratagems and pshchic powers. Basically you buff it up, throw it at your opponent, and they can’t kill it. Would pair well with plasma scions deepstriking. The Pallies are 440 stock, so you still have room for character support in the 750 total range.
Depends on what you’re looking for, the supreme command option gives you a sprinkling of decent melee characters while the vanguard gives you twin-las+missile with re-roll damage (chaplain litany) from out of LOS every turn.
greyknight12 wrote: Warp Shaping does nothing, as nothing in your army has Tides. For your 750 pts, I’d actually suggest a supreme command detachment of 3 HQs and 10 paladins (all storm bolters). You could also go with a patrol (1 HQ, strike squad, paladins) or Vanguard (Chaplain, paladins, Ven Dread, apothecary). The “Paladin bomb” doesn’t really need the tides much, most of it’s durability and CC punch comes from stratagems and pshchic powers. Basically you buff it up, throw it at your opponent, and they can’t kill it. Would pair well with plasma scions deepstriking. The Pallies are 440 stock, so you still have room for character support in the 750 total range.
Depends on what you’re looking for, the supreme command option gives you a sprinkling of decent melee characters while the vanguard gives you twin-las+missile with re-roll damage (chaplain litany) from out of LOS every turn.
Just got my first Pally blob, an ebay special. They're kitted out well and unpainted, ten models. Considering buying a dreadknight simply because I like the model. I don't get the hate for them personally.
greyknight12 wrote: Warp Shaping does nothing, as nothing in your army has Tides. For your 750 pts, I’d actually suggest a supreme command detachment of 3 HQs and 10 paladins (all storm bolters). You could also go with a patrol (1 HQ, strike squad, paladins) or Vanguard (Chaplain, paladins, Ven Dread, apothecary). The “Paladin bomb” doesn’t really need the tides much, most of it’s durability and CC punch comes from stratagems and pshchic powers. Basically you buff it up, throw it at your opponent, and they can’t kill it. Would pair well with plasma scions deepstriking. The Pallies are 440 stock, so you still have room for character support in the 750 total range.
Depends on what you’re looking for, the supreme command option gives you a sprinkling of decent melee characters while the vanguard gives you twin-las+missile with re-roll damage (chaplain litany) from out of LOS every turn.
Just got my first Pally blob, an ebay special. They're kitted out well and unpainted, ten models. Considering buying a dreadknight simply because I like the model. I don't get the hate for them personally.
The model looks slightly silly when you think about it. With some work they look really good though.
greyknight12 wrote: Warp Shaping does nothing, as nothing in your army has Tides. For your 750 pts, I’d actually suggest a supreme command detachment of 3 HQs and 10 paladins (all storm bolters). You could also go with a patrol (1 HQ, strike squad, paladins) or Vanguard (Chaplain, paladins, Ven Dread, apothecary). The “Paladin bomb” doesn’t really need the tides much, most of it’s durability and CC punch comes from stratagems and pshchic powers. Basically you buff it up, throw it at your opponent, and they can’t kill it. Would pair well with plasma scions deepstriking. The Pallies are 440 stock, so you still have room for character support in the 750 total range.
Depends on what you’re looking for, the supreme command option gives you a sprinkling of decent melee characters while the vanguard gives you twin-las+missile with re-roll damage (chaplain litany) from out of LOS every turn.
Just got my first Pally blob, an ebay special. They're kitted out well and unpainted, ten models. Considering buying a dreadknight simply because I like the model. I don't get the hate for them personally.
The model looks slightly silly when you think about it. With some work they look really good though.
Well, I don't think they look sillier than Invicta warsuits. Well maybe a little but they're both pretty tongue-in-cheek.
Most of dislike for the dreadknight (even the grandmaster version) comes from the increase in killyness that the Space Marine codex brought. If someone wants it to die, it will die (even with the nerfed IF doctrine). Being a vehicle has some mobility limitations too, and no character protections or easy way to negate screens with it’s big base. With the buff to GK from Tides, typically taking an infantry unit to do the same job ends up being a little better or you want more eggs in your super-buffed basket than a single dreadknight.
That being said, no one seems to have really tried to make them work post-PA and SM nerf, and you might find a perfect combo of strats/powers/tides/litanies to make them work really well. We don’t have anywhere close to the reps with what’s really a new army at this point to know what “the” build is (and there will probably be several). They used to be our best unit, after all.
greyknight12 wrote: Warp Shaping does nothing, as nothing in your army has Tides. For your 750 pts, I’d actually suggest a supreme command detachment of 3 HQs and 10 paladins (all storm bolters). You could also go with a patrol (1 HQ, strike squad, paladins) or Vanguard (Chaplain, paladins, Ven Dread, apothecary). The “Paladin bomb” doesn’t really need the tides much, most of it’s durability and CC punch comes from stratagems and pshchic powers. Basically you buff it up, throw it at your opponent, and they can’t kill it. Would pair well with plasma scions deepstriking. The Pallies are 440 stock, so you still have room for character support in the 750 total range.
Depends on what you’re looking for, the supreme command option gives you a sprinkling of decent melee characters while the vanguard gives you twin-las+missile with re-roll damage (chaplain litany) from out of LOS every turn.
Just got my first Pally blob, an ebay special. They're kitted out well and unpainted, ten models. Considering buying a dreadknight simply because I like the model. I don't get the hate for them personally.
The model looks slightly silly when you think about it. With some work they look really good though.
Well, I don't think they look sillier than Invicta warsuits. Well maybe a little but they're both pretty tongue-in-cheek.
Invictus Warsuits actually look like they protect their driver somewhat.
greyknight12 wrote: Warp Shaping does nothing, as nothing in your army has Tides. For your 750 pts, I’d actually suggest a supreme command detachment of 3 HQs and 10 paladins (all storm bolters). You could also go with a patrol (1 HQ, strike squad, paladins) or Vanguard (Chaplain, paladins, Ven Dread, apothecary). The “Paladin bomb” doesn’t really need the tides much, most of it’s durability and CC punch comes from stratagems and pshchic powers. Basically you buff it up, throw it at your opponent, and they can’t kill it. Would pair well with plasma scions deepstriking. The Pallies are 440 stock, so you still have room for character support in the 750 total range.
Depends on what you’re looking for, the supreme command option gives you a sprinkling of decent melee characters while the vanguard gives you twin-las+missile with re-roll damage (chaplain litany) from out of LOS every turn.
Just got my first Pally blob, an ebay special. They're kitted out well and unpainted, ten models. Considering buying a dreadknight simply because I like the model. I don't get the hate for them personally.
The model looks slightly silly when you think about it. With some work they look really good though.
Well, I don't think they look sillier than Invicta warsuits. Well maybe a little but they're both pretty tongue-in-cheek.
Invictus Warsuits actually look like they protect their driver somewhat.
Yeah, they protect the legs and leave the torso and head completely exposed lol.
+ HQ +
Brother-Captain [9 PL, 118pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Warlord, Gate of Infinity
. Nemesis Force Halberd: Nemesis Force Halberd
. Psycannon: Psycannon (Terminator)
Well, it appears that the top ranked GK lists look all the same.
With two battalions of 3x5 Strikes each, two big Paladin units (often one with four heavy weapons), Apothecary and 4 or 5 characters like 1 or 2 Librarians, Chaplain, Brother Captain and Voldus, Stern or Draigo.
One can see differences in the equipment of Strikes (one or no heavy weapon) and the distribution of powers among the units. In view of the latter, the powers taken seems to be consensus but not who gets which power.
I had an enjoyable game against Guard the other day. I was running a basic double Paladin army, he had 3x Artillery, 7 or so Leman Russ tanks, a group of Bullgrin, Tempestus plasma in a Valkyrie, and a smattering of infantry.
He was able to zone me out of his deployment zone for the entire game while his artillery and aggressive elements kept me back in mine. I was able to keep the points close until the last couple turns when I was basically tabled. Guard are still strong, and have the tools to deal with the typical 'stay out of LOS' play style of the Paladins.
greyknight12 wrote: Most of dislike for the dreadknight (even the grandmaster version) comes from the increase in killyness that the Space Marine codex brought. If someone wants it to die, it will die (even with the nerfed IF doctrine). Being a vehicle has some mobility limitations too, and no character protections or easy way to negate screens with it’s big base. With the buff to GK from Tides, typically taking an infantry unit to do the same job ends up being a little better or you want more eggs in your super-buffed basket than a single dreadknight.
That being said, no one seems to have really tried to make them work post-PA and SM nerf, and you might find a perfect combo of strats/powers/tides/litanies to make them work really well. We don’t have anywhere close to the reps with what’s really a new army at this point to know what “the” build is (and there will probably be several). They used to be our best unit, after all.
Honestly, I still really like my GMDNKs. Hold them in the teleportarium till turn 2/3 when the super doctrines wear off. I really like that they can operate independently of any stratagems, put out good amounts of dakka and are also beatsticks in combat. They're also surprisingly durable with the 3++.
I'm not saying they're top top tier competitive, but they can be effective on the tabletop still.
Well, before the new rules and stratagems, I'd usually played 2 GMDKNs deep striking in round 2.
They were a good add-on to a mediocre army.
But now as the army got new strength, GMDKNs are no longer a must have, just an add-on in friendly games.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, before the new rules and stratagems, I'd usually played 2 GMDKNs deep striking in round 2.
They were a good add-on to a mediocre army.
But now as the army got new strength, GMDKNs are no longer a must have, just an add-on in friendly games.
If anyone is interested, we put together a very educational and insightful battle rep between Grey Knights and Space Wolves. Very tactical and pretty competitive matchup.
Xenos Inquisitor gets back easy CP, but that's about it. I wanted to use Karamazov but they never gave his Orbital Bombardments back. He was cool for that.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, before the new rules and stratagems, I'd usually played 2 GMDKNs deep striking in round 2.
They were a good add-on to a mediocre army.
But now as the army got new strength, GMDKNs are no longer a must have, just an add-on in friendly games.
Yup, pretty much this.
If they had also received buffs from Tide of convergence, that is be able to deliver:
- 6 S8 AP-1 D3 shots and
- 12 S5 AP0 Dd3+1 shots
Do you think they would be a competitive alternative to a Paladin bomb. Or at least instead of the second Paladin bomb.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, before the new rules and stratagems, I'd usually played 2 GMDKNs deep striking in round 2.
They were a good add-on to a mediocre army.
But now as the army got new strength, GMDKNs are no longer a must have, just an add-on in friendly games.
Yup, pretty much this.
If they had also received buffs from Tide of convergence, that is be able to deliver:
- 6 S8 AP-1 D3 shots and
- 12 S5 AP0 Dd3+1 shots
Do you think they would be a competitive alternative to a Paladin bomb. Or at least instead of the second Paladin bomb.
Well, they would dish out more damage but their survivability is still questionable.
Paladins still have almost 4 times the number of attacks, and are infinitely more durable. The best part about the full infantry list is that you can hide your paladins and decide when you expose them, so you can keep the second unit safe until the first dies or you need it. Also, going second and hiding your whole army out of LOS is super powerful, specially in competitive games, since you waste your opponent's first turn (minimum) and deny him kill points, while gaining a very big advantage when it comes to objectives. It's specially good against marines, because they lose their best doctrine.
It’s kind of a moot point since they didn’t receive the buffs, but if Dreadknights did they would definitely be more of an interesting option.
The “fun unit” I’m trying figure out right now is dreadnoughts. Since they are psyker they get the Shadows perks, and while I’ve been running one to astral aim into vehicles/thunder fire cannons I’m wondering if a full gunline of them backing up a paladin bomb (or just a bunch of infantry) has any value. If the auto cannons weren’t “Legended” I think there would be some potential there.
Well, I used to play three Dreads with dual autocannons with astral aim backed up by one or two Techmarines.
If in cover, its a decent fire support force.
I tried the dreadnoughts and they are really bad. They are simply too expensive for how little damage they do and how fragile they are.
To have a decent chance to kill an enemy tank per turn, you need three of them with lascannons and missile launchers, costing you 435 points, which is the same than a full 10 man paladin unit. If one of them dies, you are no longer killing a unit per turn, and your army does not have any more shooting to finish off those wounded targets. Their psychic abilities are wasted, being too far a away to cast smites, and astral aim being more useful in a big unit of paladins. They can be shot easily, since they can't hide, and are very fragile.
They have the same problems dreadknights have, just worse. Just compare them to a whirlwind, an invictor suit or a nightspinner, all of them have better shotting, better durability, better mobility and are cheaper, or to a chaplain dread, that has a ton of advantage for 20 or so more points. Dradnoughts should cost no more than 90 points to be playable.
Well, at the competitive level it is better to play either an infantry army or a fully armored army.
Then either anti-tank weapons or anti-infantry weapons are wasted.
E.g., an Eldar tank army with Falcons, Serpents, Fire Prisms and Night Spinners, is rather resilient at the competitive level these days. I'm glad that GK regained some strength as a full infantry army.
So the "Dynamic Insertion" stratagem says it only works for units with "Teleport Strike". Lord Kaldor Draigo has "Warp Emergence", not TS. Is he still eligible? RaI says yes, RaW says no. Thoughts?
You should not use inner fire with Draigo anyway. You want him to be close to your army for rerolls, so he should not be reserved, anyway. Most importantly, every one of Draigo's wounds is much more valuable than those of other characters, but they all lose wounds to inner fire at the same rate, so you should never use it with him, but with a librarian or apothecary instead.
Seizeman wrote: You should not use inner fire with Draigo anyway. You want him to be close to your army for rerolls, so he should not be reserved, anyway. Most importantly, every one of Draigo's wounds is much more valuable than those of other characters, but they all lose wounds to inner fire at the same rate, so you should never use it with him, but with a librarian or apothecary instead.
Also, since Crowe doesn't have the Rites of Banishment ability, you can't use powerful adept on him. Even if you could do all that, that would be less than 9 mortals, not 15.
What you can use dynamic insertion for is to position a strike squad (or something else) so they can cast a nice big vortex of doom. I've managed to deal 22 wounds with a single cast before thanks to that.
Not to pooh-pooh anyone (at all, seriously)...but I've been really baffled by all the "OMG you can do VORTEX!" commentary. In the Art of War Interview with Lawrence Baker after his double-pally win, all John (one of the hosts) could talk about was Vortex potential, and I was listening like "what about Inner Fire?"
Vortex of Doom has 2 main restrictions: It targets the closest visible MODEL, and splashes onto UNITS within 3" of the MODEL. While it is reasonable to use a combination of re-rolls and other buffs to hit that magical 12+ roll, it's targeting is still situational. Extremely nasty in the right matchups, but ultimately situational.
Inner Fire has 2 main advantages over most other GK psychic powers: it's targetable, and does not require line of sight. Additionally, the buffs to cast directly translate into more potential damage...each +1 to cast equals 2/3 chance of another mortal wound on the target.
I have used "psychic assassin" technique in almost every game I played before the world shut down, and it has been monstrously effective. Since we don't have snipers, it's a great way to take out characters. Since mortal wounds carry over, I've also had some success in using it against otherwise tough units like centurions and obviously against really tough targets like knights. I usually have 2 characters with the power, my Sanctic Shard libby and whichever other one I don't care about. Basic start is drop in with dynamic insertion, cast something else so you can use the +1 to cast bubble, then inner fire on 3D6 pick the highest. Omit strats as required for overkill avoidance.
Some things I've found that work well:
1. Don't hit the main bulk of your opponent's army unless you're also committing everything else. It works really well to gank a lightly-defended flank and kill the one thing that's otherwise going to give your 2 strike squads trouble in that corner.
2. Drop out of LOS. There's nothing better than appearing inside a magic box next to a shooting army.
3. Have multiple characters with it. It's still useful turn 5 after your brother captain has led the charge into your opponent's castle. And sometimes, the enemy will come to you.
I'm too lazy to run the math, but a 9" charge on 2D6 (with a CP re-roll) is about 50%, apply that to Inner fire and you're looking at about 6 mortal wounds before you add in all the various buffs. Make sure you throw enough buffs to get through any FNP, and if they cluster to protect a linchpin character well then you've always got Vortex.
The main reason why vortex is so powerful is you get it for free. You just give it to one of your strike squads and the cost of doing so is almost 0. In certain situations, it can be game winning, and if the situation does not come up, nothing is lost. You don't have to go crazy with it, just getting the d3 wounds is enough. Situational abilities are bad when they have a significant cost, but great when you get them for free so, as long as you don't overcommit, vortex is an excellent tool to have. Just the threat of it forces your opponent to position themselves differently, which can open holes in their defenses that can be exploited by other elements of your army.
Inner fire, while really good, is even most situational than vortex and more costly. It can only be picked on a character, so you give up the opportunity to pick something else, and requires a CP to use, which is not trivial. In any case, it's a really good power and I would not play without it. With either relic, it averages 6 MW, which is a lot, specially because, as you mentioned, it ignores LOS and it is targeted. I've found it to be better on the librarian with the matrix (with inner fire + edict), since you want the relic close to your main force anyway, and, after your paladins are set, he can edict himself, if necessary, to inner fire units up to 23" away, very useful against isolated flanking units or flyers.
In any case, the "psychic assassin" technique is really bad in any competitive setting. You have to sacrifice a librarian and a relic just for it, which will be useless for at least a turn, and need a significant amount of CP. Furthermore, the strategy is absolutely obvious and the opponent can, in most cases, easily zone you out and protect their important characters. Even if you get to effectively deploy your librarian, you have to spend 3 CP for insertion, surge (preventing you from using it with the rest of your army) and adept, and you still can be agentsofvected, auspexed, forewarned, etc, and the power can still be denied, and then you still can fail to do enough damage to the intended target, having about a 17% chance to fail to kill a 5W target, even whith full buffs, and that's assuming no FNP or other defensive buffs. Also, which armies do have characters that you really get a big advantage for killing them (big enough to make losing a librarian, a relic and 3 CP worth it)? Space marines, which can easily zone you, auspex you or just survive the damage? Eldar, which can forewarned and denys, and have 5+++ against mortals? Would be decent against posessed lists, but still be very risky, and the posessed bomb is pretty much a free win anyway.
So, I don't fully understand how you disregard vortex for being situational (a valid point), yet you promote a tactic that is way more situational and costly and with a lesser payoff. I agree that inner fire is underapreciated, and I've have seen several lists that don't use it, which I'm sure is a big mistake, but it is a lot better when you use it just as an extra damage tool instead of as a gimmicky all in.
Seizeman wrote: So, I don't fully understand how you disregard vortex for being situational (a valid point), yet you promote a tactic that is way more situational and costly and with a lesser payoff. I agree that inner fire is underapreciated, and I've have seen several lists that don't use it, which I'm sure is a big mistake, but it is a lot better when you use it just as an extra damage tool instead of as a gimmicky all in
Because most of the time Vortex does D3 mortal wounds, short of applying a lot of buffs to it. Inner fire reliably does 6 and is more flexible with targeting. You don’t need to put it on a Librarian, an Apothecary will do. While the deepstrike psychic assassin strategy is situational, there is rarely a case where there’s nothing good to trade for a 76-110 pt model and some CP. It’s something to keep in your back pocket, like Vortex and the threat of it may cause your opponent to play differently. And it’s not in any way the linchpin of your army, just a convenient way to delete something that you may otherwise have trouble killing. It’s no more “all-in” than powering up a smash captain to kill something.
I think it’s a useful tool, and just wanted to share some of my lessons learned since I haven’t seen it discussed here yet. Usually I’ve been deepstriking my characters anyway to support my other deepstrikes and avoid eliminators before I can kill them.
So, I haven't gotten to play with or against Grey Knights much recently, however with all this shut in time I'm making it a priority to try and get my GK army painted, and I'm trying to figure out a decent build to run them with after starting to collect them several editions ago.
With that collection, I've been looking at list building, and while I can play my Guard or Chaos marines in my sleep, this army has so many special rules, interactions, and situationally triggered abilities (particularly with PA), that it's really hard to get my head around listbuilding comparatively. Without really wanting to add much to the collection (trying to get them painted without adding more to the heap ) or tear apart a bunch of them to re-equip (particularly the old metal termi's, boy how I wish they'd built the Falchion option into them back then ), I've been trying to come up with as competitive a list as is possible using this collection of mostly uncompetitive units, particularly using the larger Plastics Termi's as a Paladin centerpiece with the metals and their slightly reduced scale used as Troops terminators.
What I'm trying to work with is a couple Dreadknights built with sword/incinerator/psycannon, an LRC sporting a MM with all the FWGK bits and crew gubbins stuck to it, I've got 5 Plastic terminators that I've always tried to use as Paladins with a couple psycannons and a couple Daemonhammers (the other 3 armed with Halberds), 4 old metal Halberd Brother-Captain/Terminator Squad Leaders, 7 metal Halberd Terminators, 5 metal Sword Terminators, 4 metal Halberd equipped Psycannon Termi's (though these could just as easily be Psilencers given the older design), and 4 metal Sword equipped Incinerator Termi's, along with a Termi Librarian, a Draigo based kitbashed character that can work as pretty much anything (GM, Chaplain, Apothecary, Ancient, Voldus, another Librarian, etc), A single old metal BC with a Psycannon (no idea where he came from, could be relatively easily just made another squad leader), and a complete Draigo stuffed somewhere.
Here's kinda where I'm initially starting from for a 2k list, I'm sure this is a mess, particularly the psychic power options, if anyone can let me know where I can improve and best fill out that last 100pts it would be much appreciated!
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Edict Imperator, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword
Vaktathi wrote: Here's kinda where I'm initially starting from for a 2k list, I'm sure this is a mess, particularly the psychic power options, if anyone can let me know where I can improve and best fill out that last 100pts it would be much appreciated!
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Edict Imperator, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword
Assuming you want to just use the models you have:
-I'd max out the paladin squad, and have just 3 terminator squads for the battalion. As is, that would probably eat a chunk of your 100 pts. I would make the Paragon one of the hammer-wielders since he's going to get more out of it with WS 2+ than a regular paladin. In general, I stay away from hammers except on some characters for that reason.
-Drop the banner, find the extra points for a chaplain instead to get litanies. The banner of refining flame isn't really necessary with D2 smites and Inner fire; neither is the bonus attack cause of Shock Assault. On the other hand, there are a lot of good litanies and having access to them is useful.
-Unless you're really attached to the Land Raider, I'd drop it for a brother captain and either Draigo or Voldus (since your voldus proxy is now a chaplain, probably draigo). You'll get more out of the re-rolls, extra smite range, and general melee ability than the LRC guns. You have plenty of bolter shots with all the terminators and bolter drill. Without benefitting from Tides and being unable to deepstrike there's a decent chance the LRC attracts all the anti-tank guns and dies. Since its prospective cargo (terminators) can hide out of LOS and benefit from a lot of damage reduction they don't need the bunker.
In general, for characters I always try to have a brother captain, chaplain, librarian, and then either voldus or draigo. Your dreadknights might actually work because everything else is a terminator or paladin; but replacing them with infantry/other characters down the line will probably be better though. Additionally, if you want to keep the LRC you're going to want to drop a dreadknight to get other characters.
Yup, mostly all wrong units with the wrong weapons, openly acknowledged as such
Just trying to figure out how best to use the tools I've got and what's worked for others. Not intending on bringing this army to the LVO or anything, but more just looking for things like what psychic powers and warlord abilities work best with which units in this kind of setup, if I should adjust squad sizes, swap characters, drop the LRC entirely for more dudes/characters, etc. Looking at how much this army works off Stratagems and stacking special rules (that aren't all in the same place) is making it hard for me to nail these down. Any feedback like that would be much appreciated!
Vaktathi wrote: Here's kinda where I'm initially starting from for a 2k list, I'm sure this is a mess, particularly the psychic power options, if anyone can let me know where I can improve and best fill out that last 100pts it would be much appreciated!
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Edict Imperator, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword
Assuming you want to just use the models you have:
-I'd max out the paladin squad, and have just 3 terminator squads for the battalion. As is, that would probably eat a chunk of your 100 pts. I would make the Paragon one of the hammer-wielders since he's going to get more out of it with WS 2+ than a regular paladin. In general, I stay away from hammers except on some characters for that reason.
-Drop the banner, find the extra points for a chaplain instead to get litanies. The banner of refining flame isn't really necessary with D2 smites and Inner fire; neither is the bonus attack cause of Shock Assault. On the other hand, there are a lot of good litanies and having access to them is useful.
-Unless you're really attached to the Land Raider, I'd drop it for a brother captain and either Draigo or Voldus (since your voldus proxy is now a chaplain, probably draigo). You'll get more out of the re-rolls, extra smite range, and general melee ability than the LRC guns. You have plenty of bolter shots with all the terminators and bolter drill. Without benefitting from Tides and being unable to deepstrike there's a decent chance the LRC attracts all the anti-tank guns and dies. Since its prospective cargo (terminators) can hide out of LOS and benefit from a lot of damage reduction they don't need the bunker.
In general, for characters I always try to have a brother captain, chaplain, librarian, and then either voldus or draigo. Your dreadknights might actually work because everything else is a terminator or paladin; but replacing them with infantry/other characters down the line will probably be better though. Additionally, if you want to keep the LRC you're going to want to drop a dreadknight to get other characters.
Awesome, I'll work on that, dropping the LRC from the list isn't a problem, I can totally drop it for the characters and swap the banner for a Chaplain. Any ideas on the various psychic powers for each unit?
For psychic powers, I’d stick with gate on the pallies, then sanctuary, hammerhand, and astral aim on the terminators. I’d repeat gate and sanctuary on the GMDKs. I’d give Warp Shaping/Empyrean Domination to Draigo and the librarian, edict imperator on the chaplain and Inner fire on the brother captain for starters, you can also swap out empyrean for another inner fire on Draigo or the Libby (or take it on a dreadknight) if you want to prioritize damage over extra CP. Who has what power is going to depend a lot on your play style and what role each character actually plays in your games, so you’ll probably tweak the Dominus power distribution a bit.
For me, the minimum redundant powers are Warp Shaping and Gate of Infinity regardless of list. I once took 3 warp shapings against a sniper heavy list cause I was paranoid.
First to the Fray is still the best warlord trait, and I think for your list it’s 98% the best option but Lore Master can sometimes be useful if you need someone to know an extra power.
Yeah, I wish they had waited to see if the vehicles were actually a problem before nerfing them, especially considering that Space Marines can already do similar things with Stealthy and other custom chapter tactics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know we haven’t had a ton of playtime, but has anyone had any issues with or see any potential issues with anti-psyker tech, particularly with the Psychic Awakening releases? From my experience it’s been a resounding “No”; I simply have too many casts and the ability to outrange denies.
_SeeD_ wrote: Grey Knights are the most tactical and strategic army in the game, yes or no?
In some ways, I'd say yes. It's not the army with most decision-making, since you have few units and not much mobility, but probably the army with the toughest decisions. Precisely because you don't have a lot of mobility or units, once you make a choice, specially an early one, it can dictate how the rest of the game plays, so you have to be be very careful, since a wrong decision can easily cost you the game. That means that assessing your opponents army and figuring an effective strategy is extremely important. Because of this, you have to be very familiar with what you army can do, since the stratagems, tides and psychic powers give you a ton of options, and you have to pretty much devise your whole gameplan before the game starts and, specially in a competitive environment, where you don't have time to waste, that requires fast thinking.
I think it is very advisable, before you go to a tournament, to have an aproximate strategy for every popular list so you can make quick decisions. It's a lot to remember, specially when you also have to remember which character has each power, and to use them in the correct order, etc., but that's more of a technical issue than a tactical one.
_SeeD_ wrote: Grey Knights are the most tactical and strategic army in the game, yes or no?
I try to refrain form sweeping statements, but you do have a decent amount of "master-planning" while still being able to flex still your strategy a decent bit on the fly with Gate of infinity, Shunt, and application of stratagems. It plays a lot like Genestealer cult; you have a decent amount of flexibility but also the possibility of over/under-committing and losing the game. It's a very rewarding army to play when everything comes together, even if it's just invincible Paladins shooting from out of LOS cause you had a whole lot of inputs to make that happen and also everyone else cause it's time for GK to actually be good.
_SeeD_ wrote: Grey Knights are the most tactical and strategic army in the game, yes or no?
This superlative is not really correct.
All elite armies require tactics, knowledge and skill.
Elite is usually defined by low model count or high model cost of all models in the army, not just armies that have a single high-cost model.
This holds not only for GK, but for several armies in the 40k universe.
Playing an elite armies is often a challenge and usually requires practice, practice, practice ....
Dakka might be the ultimate forum for general 40K or wargaming stuff, but if you're looking for discussions on specific topics you can find better elsewhere. For example, the last response on this thread was April 24th, over two weeks ago. The GK subreddit linked above is active every day.
Dakka might be the ultimate forum for general 40K or wargaming stuff, but if you're looking for discussions on specific topics you can find better elsewhere. For example, the last response on this thread was April 24th, over two weeks ago. The GK subreddit linked above is active every day.
However we've already gone over all the ideas here, and I doubt they're gonna reveal anything on Discord not discussed here already.
Just thinking that for maximizing CP our HQ sot will become the most disputed one. Only 3 HQ slots to fill all the dominus powers + redundancy that we need seems rather short. At least if we want to add some support characters like a chaplain for litanies or brother captain for smite range.
Perhaps to add apothecaries or banners to bring dominus powers could be necessary.
just doing some theory crafting with the little that we currently know about.
We do have some characters in the elites slot that can help out, but blowing a CP or two (especially given that we have a regen psychic power) on a supreme command might not be a bad idea. It’s ironic that podcasters and other are saying how great this is for “armies like GK that have trouble generating CP”...GK troops cost the same as Primaris intercessors and aren’t a tax after PA; lots of people are running double battalion.
I did look at brigades when PA dropped but ultimately the heavy support slots became a tax, I could usefully fill 2 but not 3.
Looks like our NDK and GMNDK would be able to shoot their heavy weapons in CC and also they won´t suffer penalties for moving and shooting.
I can see they CC output boosted quite a lot with. Potentially becoming one of the powerhouses in CC out there.
The heavy gatling and the heavy incinerator should be able to deal quite well against chaff in CC and the sword and the hammer against heavy targets. This of course if they can survive...
Looks like our NDK and GMNDK would be able to shoot their heavy weapons in CC and also they won´t suffer penalties for moving and shooting.
I can see they CC output boosted quite a lot with. Potentially becoming one of the powerhouses in CC out there.
The heavy gatling and the heavy incinerator should be able to deal quite well against chaff in CC and the sword and the hammer against heavy targets. This of course if they can survive...
I still feel bad that Tide of Guns doesn't work for NDKs. But having seen the new vehicle rules, I can't help but think MAYBE they were future-proofing, and didn't want a 6x NDK list that no one ever wants to charge.
Well, GK got a boost by the latest book on psionic awakening.
The new ed will shift the meta and our new hot lists (see GT Bournemouth) are now in question.
What a pity.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, GK got a boost by the latest book on psionic awakening.
The new ed will shift the meta and our new hot lists (see GT Bournemouth) are now in question.
What a pity.
I haven’t seen anything in the previews that indicates GK are in trouble with the new edition. Our Paladin list will play largely unchanged, and there’s a lot of other stuff that will still be good (and stuff like DKs will get better). I’ve always thought double-Paladin was going to be short-lived because people always figure out how to deal with deathstars.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, GK got a boost by the latest book on psionic awakening.
The new ed will shift the meta and our new hot lists (see GT Bournemouth) are now in question.
What a pity.
I haven’t seen anything in the previews that indicates GK are in trouble with the new edition. Our Paladin list will play largely unchanged, and there’s a lot of other stuff that will still be good (and stuff like DKs will get better). I’ve always thought double-Paladin was going to be short-lived because people always figure out how to deal with deathstars.
Besides the DKs, we need a Chaplain Venerable Dread.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, GK got a boost by the latest book on psionic awakening.
The new ed will shift the meta and our new hot lists (see GT Bournemouth) are now in question.
What a pity.
I haven’t seen anything in the previews that indicates GK are in trouble with the new edition. Our Paladin list will play largely unchanged, and there’s a lot of other stuff that will still be good (and stuff like DKs will get better). I’ve always thought double-Paladin was going to be short-lived because people always figure out how to deal with deathstars.
With focus on elites the MW spam GK's can do is if anything even more powerful than before. One thing to MW's 4 pts model. Another 20 pts models. With hordes going away the MW's are going to be relatively lot more damaging.
I wouldn't worry too much. Less HQ slots is inconvenient but compared to nerfs several other factions are getting that's minor.
Good news from today’s reveal: it won’t cost CP to reserve units that already have a way to do it (like deepstrike). No reveals yet on whether the “50% rule” for reserves is changing.
Now that Assassins won’t break Tides, does anyone see utility in adding one? I’ve been eyeing the Vindicare despite previous disappointments since we otherwise don’t have snipers/character targeting.
greyknight12 wrote: Now that Assassins won’t break Tides, does anyone see utility in adding one? I’ve been eyeing the Vindicare despite previous disappointments since we otherwise don’t have snipers/character targeting.
The Vindicare seems to be the only playable assassin.
greyknight12 wrote: Now that Assassins won’t break Tides, does anyone see utility in adding one? I’ve been eyeing the Vindicare despite previous disappointments since we otherwise don’t have snipers/character targeting.
The Vindicare seems to be the only playable assassin.
I'd say that the Callidus's "spend extra CP" ability is pretty good. She really shines when you're up against a T3 opponent (the lower toughness is usually also paired with fewer wounds than Marine characters) and you can DS snipe some backfield stuff.
We'll have to hope that Vindicare keeps the 8e "no targetting if not closest" rule, or else you're gonna have to have Strikers babysitting him Which then means he'll have to set up in the same spaces your GKSS could deploy on T1, which greatly reduces his choice of shooting corridors.
His -2 to hit will still be relevant, since it will cancel out any +1 to hit your opponent might throw at him.
The Grey Knights Faction Focus is out today. Sadly, there's really nothing at all there except the strong, subtle push towards needing two detachments. I suspect I'll be taking a Battalion and either a Supreme Command or a Vanguard (depending on the CP cost of each). I like having many units on the table for board control, so GKSS are, for me, a necessity. (It also allows more Sanctic casting, which is good). Being capped at 3 HQs is not good, considering I want a named character, a Chappie, 1-2 Libbies, a BroCpt, and perhaps a GMDK (or two).
The list I'm thinking about currently is:
Libby Voldus GMDK 3x GKSS 2x NDK
Chappie BroCapt Apothecary (suicide) Apothecary Pallies Ven Dread
Psyk-out grenades are on the leaked list of “blast weapons”. Not sure how useful it is since against large daemon hordes you’re probably getting more mileage out of your storm bolter.
Assume reroll 1s for a GM.
Against Pinks you get 1.04 SB wounds and 1.09 psyk wounds (that includes mortals)
Against Plaguies you get 0.52 SB wounds and 0.7 psyk wounds (that includes mortals)
Against BLs and Girls you get 1.38 SB wounds and 1.09 psyk wounds (that includes mortals)
I used an online calculator that doesn't have an auto-wound option, so the psyk-out wounds should be a tad higher (best I could do is wound on 2s and reroll).
But overall they're pretty comparable. The fewer shots that bypass saves even out with the higher shots and higher str.
As usual, PBs are stupid. It takes two GK bodies to kill a 7pt model in shooting.
After a first reading the leaked rules there seems not tooo much change for us overall:
- Cant Cast after Fallback
- We can still Deepstrike without CP, still not Turn 1 and still max 50%
- As per the Core Rules, you can cast infinite smites per modell, I expect this will get restricted in matched play rules or FAQ - Doing a Psychic Action (for VPs) costs ALL Casts
Only Biggie:
- You have to cast all powers from a modell before choosing the next one. Cant Sanctuary with a GMNDK, Gate him to the front with another unit and then smite with him :(
stormcraft wrote: After a first reading the leaked rules there seems not tooo much change for us overall:
- Cant Cast after Fallback
- We can still Deepstrike without CP, still not Turn 1 and still max 50%
- As per the Core Rules, you can cast infinite smites per modell, I expect this will get restricted in matched play rules or FAQ - Doing a Psychic Action (for VPs) costs ALL Casts
Only Biggie:
- You have to cast all powers from a modell before choosing the next one. Cant Sanctuary with a GMNDK, Gate him to the front with another unit and then smite with him :(
Can also use all casts of the character on multiple Smites at the moment.
Everything went up in points. This list specifically went up 205pts.
GKSS start at 20pts now, with a halberd and a SB. That's up from 18. My basic squad of 4 halbs and a psilencer went from 85pts to 100. Seems like the bad old days of start of 8e again.
Paladins increased 6pts, so a squad of 10 is minimum 60pts more. A pair of falchions are now 4pts instead of 2, and SBs are 3pts now, so that adds to the insult.
A Paladin with a halberd and SB went from 44 to 50pts. A Paladin with falchions and SB went from 45 to 54.
Dreadknights with teleporters, fists, and flamers went from 144 to 161ish.
Not to be doom and gloom, but neither the GK nor the TSons FAQ mentioned being exempt from the “+1 to cast” penalty for Smite. Since it’s a core rule now I expected the faction FAQs to have it; I honestly don’t know where else they would put it. So our smite spam option might be off the table.
Well, the pt increases for GKSS and Paladins seem to bring GK back into the stone age.
Sad to see.
Somebody eager to compute the 2nd-ranked GK list of the GT event at Bournemouth in February 2020.
Very sure the 2 pts for Falchions is for the pair. Listing the price as 'per falchion' makes no sense as they can't be taken singularly in any form, and we've had this mistake before in a previous chapter approved.
chnmmr wrote: Very sure the 2 pts for Falchions is for the pair. Listing the price as 'per falchion' makes no sense as they can't be taken singularly in any form, and we've had this mistake before in a previous chapter approved.
chnmmr wrote: Very sure the 2 pts for Falchions is for the pair. Listing the price as 'per falchion' makes no sense as they can't be taken singularly in any form, and we've had this mistake before in a previous chapter approved.
The Tyranid Devourer with brainleech worms is also priced per gun even though it can only be taken in pairs. I think it's a new thing.
chnmmr wrote: Very sure the 2 pts for Falchions is for the pair. Listing the price as 'per falchion' makes no sense as they can't be taken singularly in any form, and we've had this mistake before in a previous chapter approved.
The Tyranid Devourer with brainleech worms is also priced per gun even though it can only be taken in pairs. I think it's a new thing.
chnmmr wrote: Very sure the 2 pts for Falchions is for the pair. Listing the price as 'per falchion' makes no sense as they can't be taken singularly in any form, and we've had this mistake before in a previous chapter approved.
The Tyranid Devourer with brainleech worms is also priced per gun even though it can only be taken in pairs. I think it's a new thing.
If I'm not mistaken, an ancient can take a singular falchion
chnmmr wrote: Very sure the 2 pts for Falchions is for the pair. Listing the price as 'per falchion' makes no sense as they can't be taken singularly in any form, and we've had this mistake before in a previous chapter approved.
Falchions have been listed individually since 8e came out. In the base codex it lists a single falchion (although it was 0pts, so that no one had to do any adding).In the 2019 MFM (where the points are updated), it lists "Falchion - 1".Note how it's singular, just like in this list.
For a while now, a set of falchions has cost 2pts. That's how it is in Battlescribe, that's how it is in the lists I write.
chnmmr wrote: *reads the paladin ancient a billion more times in confusion*...
Wait... so the paladin ancient can't have a sword, but ONE falchion. And the extra attack from the falchion only counts if you're wielding 2... wtf.
Yup, welcome to weird rules. It might be too hard to wield a sword and a banner together? and since the falchion is smaller it must be easier to dual weild with a banner?? Idk, just a guess at their reasoning
chnmmr wrote: *reads the paladin ancient a billion more times in confusion*...
Wait... so the paladin ancient can't have a sword, but ONE falchion. And the extra attack from the falchion only counts if you're wielding 2... wtf.
Well lore-wise makes sense as he is carrying a banner in one hand. How he would be able to wield 2 falchions then? Also, a nemesis sword apparently is in fact a two-handed weapon. That's why the GK has wrist-mounted storm bolters. In fact, he is probably the best warrior but he has the burden to carry the heave and cumbersome banner with the long list of all the deeds of the hammers of Titan meanwhile with his free arm he struggles washing the never born withs bursts of holy bolters and swing a humble but more manageable falchion when things gets personal. Is like Crowe who is relegated to use Antwyr as a blunt instrument instead, such a waste for who in theory is the best dualist in the whole chapter. But sacrifices need to be made to hold the line against the creatures of the warp and there are sacrifices that can only be made by the best warriors and the purest of the soul. Be grateful that the paladin ancient is wielding the banner for us. Thrust the emperor and the sigilite and remember, the emperor protects.
Game-wise is a bit of a waste as just for 1 pt we lose 1 attack. But at least they gave us the option to have attacks with -2 AP and D3 damage. Otherwise, his attacks would be 0AP and 1 damage which is much more meh.
Imao in 9th edition the main advantage of the banner is that it can take dominus discipline and is not an HQ. I guess also that if CC it becomes more important in 9th edition, and we should see if it will become yet, the +1 attack ara it might be a plus.
chnmmr wrote: *reads the paladin ancient a billion more times in confusion*...
Wait... so the paladin ancient can't have a sword, but ONE falchion. And the extra attack from the falchion only counts if you're wielding 2... wtf.
Yup, welcome to weird rules. It might be too hard to wield a sword and a banner together? and since the falchion is smaller it must be easier to dual weild with a banner?? Idk, just a guess at their reasoning
It's mainly about what could be modeled straight from the box. There are plenty of left-hand falchions but no left-hand swords. It's one of the small changes from 8ed and forward that's actually pretty cool.
1. Game-play: before 8Ed it always seemed a waste that while the banner bearer will grant and gain an extra melee attack - those attacks were never better than just punching his opponent with his fist. That added AP-2, Dd3 on all his attacks was a real buff to his model.
2. Lore-wise: A single falchion is our most compact melee weapon (and relatively the easiest to wield), and it makes sense that a twin falchion user would be the most capable of holding a banner in one hand while competently attack with his left-hand independently.
The only problem with Falchions in 9Ed...is that they are prohibitively costly now. Way too cheap at the beginning of 8Ed, but now way too expensive at the beginning of 9Ed! 4 points for 1 extra attack is criminal. Even a single Falchion cost makes no sense. Halberds have +1S, Swords have +1AP and they are free while one Falchion is TWO points?!
And if it does turn out that they will be half the price of what is leaked...that's still too expensive - again the straight up better Halberd / Sword is FREE, while 1 Falchion will cost you 1 point for being worse? They got it right at the end of 8Ed with Twin Falchions costing one extra point (for 1 extra attack). To make it the most balanced/fair in 9Ed it should be Falchion (single/pair): 0/1 point.
Hopefully a mass of GK players will politely and succinctly point out this problem, for the first round of FAQ, as GW will only make changes to mass agreements eg. so many proper emails and structured game data / battle reports from GK players over 2+ years gave us Tides / buffs etc in PA, whereas similarly weak armies like SW and DW were not as fervent in their feedback - resulting in minimal / lackluster PA rules...coming AFTER our tremendous PA buffs!
I finished kitbashing up an Inquisitorial Chaplain Dreadnought during quarantine and just found out they're being moved to Legends. I'm not surprised, but it does sadden me a bit.
Neknoh wrote: hey all! Considering picking up Indomitus and was wondering what models (if any) I could actually use for Grey Knight purposes?
I might need to do headswaps and weapon swaps, but yeah, basically, would using the primaris army from Indom work well as a Grey Knight starter army?
If not, what chapter would you recommend I take to complement a gray knight army?
I don’t think any of the models should actually work that well, if you want truescale GK then just basic Primaris could be kitbashed with the GK kits, maybe. The assault intercessors could potentially do with a bit of work. We don’t have bikes or storm shields, unfortunately.
For allies, anyone who can do snipers and/or artillery well.
Hello fellow brothers, so im going deep on grey knights this edition.
Apart from draigo, voldus, dreadknight and 10 paladins.
What else i should be aiming at? I read a lot about termis as the troop choice but i see them like expensive primaris with 2+/5++.
So maybe better go with strikes..?
In that case what weapons should i buy for them?
Thx for the answers!
zantio wrote: Hello fellow brothers, so im going deep on grey knights this edition.
Apart from draigo, voldus, dreadknight and 10 paladins.
What else i should be aiming at? I read a lot about termis as the troop choice but i see them like expensive primaris with 2+/5++.
So maybe better go with strikes..?
In that case what weapons should i buy for them?
Thx for the answers!
For a competitive army, Draigo, 2x librarian, Brother captain, apothecary (you can build all 4 of those with a single terminator box), 20 paladins, 20 strikes. After that, Voldus and Dreadknights are nice to have, but just buy whatever you like.
zantio wrote: Hello fellow brothers, so im going deep on grey knights this edition.
Apart from draigo, voldus, dreadknight and 10 paladins.
What else i should be aiming at? I read a lot about termis as the troop choice but i see them like expensive primaris with 2+/5++.
So maybe better go with strikes..?
In that case what weapons should i buy for them?
Thx for the answers!
For a competitive army, Draigo, 2x librarian, Brother captain, apothecary (you can build all 4 of those with a single terminator box), 20 paladins, 20 strikes. After that, Voldus and Dreadknights are nice to have, but just buy whatever you like.
It appears that the 2-ranked list from Bournemouth GT is still a possible way to go.
How about smaller units of Paladins due to the new blast rule.
zantio wrote: But if a united of 5 strikes can do smite and get a justificar.. why go units of 10?
Buffs are better on bigger squads. Psybolt ammo, transhuman, sanctuary, hammerhand, litanies, etc etc etc are all much more effective on larger squads.
You want to run at least one 10-man squad in your list to take advantage of these strats and blessings. Many GKs run two 10-man Pallies, or 1 of those and another block of 10x GKSS or GKI.
zantio wrote: But if a united of 5 strikes can do smite and get a justificar.. why go units of 10?
Strike squads are better on units of 5, precisely for the reasons you mentioned (and because they fill more troop slots that way). Big unit of paladins are better because buffs are much more powerful on them, and the GK army works around those buffs. You are not buffing strikes so you don't want big units of them.
GK and TSons will have a +1 Cast cost per extra Smite they do a turn.
We really don't know that yet. They are just using the current rules in the video. Grey knights not getting a +1 to cast is a matched play rule, not a core one, so we will have to see how those are updated on day 1. These guys probably now nothing about those matched play rules (playtesters work on a need to know basis) and, even if they knew, they probably could not reveal them. Right know, there's no restriction to setting up reinforcements on turn 1, but I would not count on things staying that way. They'll also restrict smite to one cast per unit, probably. It's possible that they don't gives us the exemption to smite cost increase after all, but I would wait until we have the full rules before being alarmed.
GK and TSons will have a +1 Cast cost per extra Smite they do a turn.
We really don't know that yet. They are just using the current rules in the video. Grey knights not getting a +1 to cast is a matched play rule, not a core one, so we will have to see how those are updated on day 1. These guys probably now nothing about those matched play rules (playtesters work on a need to know basis) and, even if they knew, they probably could not reveal them. Right know, there's no restriction to setting up reinforcements on turn 1, but I would not count on things staying that way. They'll also restrict smite to one cast per unit, probably. It's possible that they don't gives us the exemption to smite cost increase after all, but I would wait until we have the full rules before being alarmed.
Well it's not completely certain (they admit that themselves), but these playtesters were playing with what they have gathered (discussions with other play testers) with what they believe was/will be rules as intended. Eg. Reinforcements from turn 2, 1 Smite per unit each turn, +1 WC Smite with each following Smite. So in just this one video they haven't been playing strictly RAW right?
Tabletop Tactics (another completely different play testing group), were playing TSons with +1 WC Smite as well. Again, it's not for certain but based on this info, it's more probable than unlikely.
We really don't know that yet. They are just using the current rules in the video. Grey knights not getting a +1 to cast is a matched play rule, not a core one, so we will have to see how those are updated on day 1. These guys probably now nothing about those matched play rules (playtesters work on a need to know basis) and, even if they knew, they probably could not reveal them. Right know, there's no restriction to setting up reinforcements on turn 1, but I would not count on things staying that way. They'll also restrict smite to one cast per unit, probably. It's possible that they don't gives us the exemption to smite cost increase after all, but I would wait until we have the full rules before being alarmed.
Very little we don't know. We know core rules, we know GT scenario pack, we know day1 faq's...Where that rule would logically be placed?
Oh and there is restriction on turn 1 and need to come on turn 3 latest or be dead. Those are on GT scenario pack that got leaked already.
I didn't realise the reinforcements restriction was in the tournament pack. There's always the chance that they forgot that rule will become invalid and they will fix it, but there's a good chance that we are stuck with a +1 to cast our smites. While it is a nerf for us, with the reduced army size, we'll rarely cast more than 5 smites per turn, which is still reasonable. However, doesn't this hurt thousands sons a lot? Specially when spamming rubrics looks like a pretty viable strategy.
Well tson's can likely survive it. They look to be on pretty good place in 9th regardless of it and were one of the big winners in point changes. Plus unless they change rules same character can multi spam smite. Good for them to get super smite with high bonuses to cast when multiple smites don't affect score needed to get super smite.
I expected the +1 to smite restriction to be removed in the FAQ, which it wasn’t. So yeah...
That said, I’ve played against people this edition who didn’t know about the rule, and given GK’s small meta presence up until a global pandemic stopped tournaments, it’s very possible the content creators aren’t all the familiar with the army, some of the Tabletop Titans suggested lists are actually fairly stupid. So it wouldn’t be surprising that the need/desire for such a rule might be completely missed.
If we don't an exemption, GW is pretty much saying that if GK are in any tide except escalation, we get 1 MW smites at increasing warp charge costs. That's in the red.
_SeeD_ wrote: If we don't an exemption, GW is pretty much saying that if GK are in any tide except escalation, we get 1 MW smites at increasing warp charge costs. That's in the red.
I mean it's pretty guaranteed now, with all the 9Ed info we have.
Another thing, the 9Ed SM Codex will drop this year, consolidating all the First Founding SM Chapters AND Deathwatch. GK will be the only SM Chapter to keep their own Codex. Obviously one main reason is we wont have access to ANY Primaris units and we don't have the standard Doctrines either.
Brotherhood of Psykers and Masters of the Warp are solid GK army rules, but without the Psychic Focus FAQ I feel we lost the second-part of our equivalent SM "Chapter Tactic". Every SM Chapter has had 2-parts, with Iron Hands having 3 buffs (who knows with their 9Ed Codex though), do you think GW has plans of giving us some additional buff in 9Ed to compensate for our base 12", 1 MW increasing cast cost Smite? Sure,GK Smite spam was effective in late 8Ed, but I'm also open-minded to having a unique distinction of our heavy-psyker GK army beyond the Smite-spam reputation...
Well, it appears that GW is pushing Primaris with new toys further and further, while other factions are starving.
This is the wrong direction. Who wants to play in a tourney against 2x IH and 2x RG?
Another thing, the 9Ed SM Codex will drop this year, consolidating all the First Founding SM Chapters AND Deathwatch. GK will be the only SM Chapter to keep their own Codex. Obviously one main reason is we wont have access to ANY Primaris units and we don't have the standard Doctrines either.
Not entirely accurate. They are maintaining supplements for various chapters in addition to the main codex going forward. DA,SW,BA, and DW will still all get supplements in addition to the existing chapters to help them remain unique.
We are entirely unique, which is pretty accurate from the outset.
Another thing, the 9Ed SM Codex will drop this year, consolidating all the First Founding SM Chapters AND Deathwatch. GK will be the only SM Chapter to keep their own Codex. Obviously one main reason is we wont have access to ANY Primaris units and we don't have the standard Doctrines either.
Not entirely accurate. They are maintaining supplements for various chapters in addition to the main codex going forward. DA,SW,BA, and DW will still all get supplements in addition to the existing chapters to help them remain unique.
We are entirely unique, which is pretty accurate from the outset.
This could mean that BA (and others) get access to Centurions and TFCs.
I was looking at them and if I were to play against a GK army I probably would love to have Abhor The Witch for obvious reasons and Assassinate because we love and we need to bring as many characters as possible.
Against a GK is almost granted the possibility to max out these 2 secondaries. For Assassinate in a battalion we are giving easily 3 characters in the HQ plus 1-2 in the elite slot so is 12-15 VP of units that our opponent would have been trying to kill anyway besides the secondary. For Abhor The Witch we are easily granting 5 VP in a battalion as our battlelines are all psykers.
Just this is giving almost an easily 30VP. And this is without even begin to consider secondaries where an elite army is weak like Battlefield Supremacy.
Abhor the witch is pretty much a free 15 CP for the opponent, but only works for a few armies, since they can't have psykers themselves.
Assassinate is not particularly good against us. We play 4-5 characters, but they are very durable, so it's rare that we lose more than 1 or 2.
In my limited experience, appart from "abhor the witch", our opponents have a hard time picking secondaries against us. "Linebreaker" is difficult for everyone because of the new table size, "domination" is super hard and "engage on all fronts" is relatively easy to score, but forces the opponent to put their units into vulnerable positions. "Grind them down" and "thin their ranks" are impossible to score against us, and very few armies can make "while we stand" work. All of the "purge the enemy" and "warpcraft "section are pretty much useless for your opponent,. "Shadow operations" are very list dependant and generally hard to max. If the opponent doesn't have access to "abhor the witch", he is pretty much forced to take a "shadow operations" one and a "supremacy" one, which are both mediocre, and then either pick the mission specific secondary or one of the bad ones.
As for our own secondaries, "grind them down" is pretty much 15 free points, and psychic ritual, which I wasn't sure about at first, has proven to be really easy to score, even if it forces you to spend some resources. If the opponent's army allow for one of the obvious "purge the enemy" ones, the choice is easy, otherwise, some of the mission specific ones and "linebreaker" are quite decent.
Linebreaker should be really easy to achieve if you play with Interceptors. the opponment either sheilds his Zone and thus will run the problem of losing board control or tries to move ahead to control the board and then you warp behind him inside some buildings and pick off some units in his development zone
Linebreaker is somewhat difficult because everything is closer, and deployment zones are not as big as they were before. If there's some good LOS blocking terrain were you can safely store your units, it's fine, but otherwise they will die, and you don't have that many to begin with (remember that you need two units to score linebreaker). However, if you don't have access to a better secondary, you can probably score 8 or maybe 12 points, which is decent.
Another one that you can pick instead is deploy scramblers. It's very easy to score, and 10 easy points are better than 12 or 15 very hard to score points.
BillyN831 wrote: What are the top three units for Grey Knights 9th edition? Thank you.
I'd vote for Strikes, Paladins and Interceptors in this order.
It's clear that we need some HQ's to do well at the battlefield.
Here Librarian, Voldus, and Chaplain get my vote.
In view of tanks, GM-NDK's got better due to the new shooting rule (move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty).
But I'd stay away from other tanks bar a Dread with lascannon, missile launcher and astral aim.
Paladins and strikes are the core of the army. Interceptors or razorbacks may have a niche..
As for characters, Draigo, librarians and apothecaries are necessary, with Voldus being a possibility. Every other character is just bad.
Everything else in the army looks pretty unusable. The biggest problem the GMNDK had was not being unable to shoot in combat or having a -1 penalty to hit, but being too easy to kill and competing with paladins for pychic buffs and CP, and that remains true.
Unluckily given the current situation everything right now is theory crafting as many we don´t have the option to participate in a real tournament till this global situation is not over.
But in my humble opinion, I see stikes and interceptors less appealing. Especially after the point changes and the rites of banishment nerf. To be fair now I see back again our troops more like a tax and the objective secure way to hold objectives. But even with that, they are not quite as efficient doing so. Compared to other armies objective secure troops now our troops seem more like an expensive glass cannon.
I'm also considering if, after the storm shield and the lookout sir nerf, Draigo is useful anymore. Before he was useful survivability wise because he got the 3++ save so was possible to head prognosticator one unit and sanctuary another one for having 3 dudes with 3++. That's not possible anymore so I wonder if Voldus now is a more obvious choice as at least he brings 3 powers and is cheaper and has the same 4++ than Draigo. How people where using Draigo till now?
Draigo's shield didn't get any nerf, he still has a 3++ save. He's just as good as before. The 3++ and the extra wound makes him more than twice as durable as Voldus, which is enough to justify the 30 extra points, and the improved aura is really good. However, I'm playing both right now, since the Brother-Captain became unusable, and Voldus is an efficient way to get the powers you need (otherwise I'd have to take a librarian+apothecary).
Look out sir! rules are a nerf to every character, but if you play 4-5 chracters it's quite manageable. Our characters have been nerfed a lot less than other armies', because we pay a lot of point for their durability, but that durability didn't matter before, so now they are more efficient, in comparison. Even in 8th edition, it was quite usual to split your characters to act independently on turns 3+, after eliminating some threats, so the difference is not big.
Strikes have become, indeed, less desirable. The smite nerf really hurt them, but they are still decent, and you need something to sit on objectives. There's no good alternative, anyway, so we'll have to deal with it for now.
TROOPS
- Terminator x5
Halberds x4, Warding Stave x1
- Terminator x5
Halberds x4, Warding Stave x1
- Terminator x5
Halberds x4, Warding Stave x1
Patrol HQ - Draigo
- Voldus
TROOPS
- Terminator x5
Halberds x4, Warding Stave x1
Looks like 9Ed will be the most competitive GK edition supporting the most varied playable army lists!
Interesting! Three GMNDK's.
They were not top priority in 8th ed list building.
Besides the new rule for shooting heavy weapons, what qualifies them to take room in a competitive army?
I tried out a 500pt game (start of a Crusade narrative) with GMDK, 5x Termies, and Apothecary.
I was facing Necrons: 16x Warriors, 3x Skorpek Destroyers (the new melee destroyers), Warden (the new support HQ) and Overlord.
I stayed in Shadows the entire game. He killed two Terminators and I tabled him.
The Apothecary was really good at getting the Agenda, which was "WC: 4. Cast when within 18" of an enemy character.)
It only lost him a single cast per turn, and the range let him stay behind the other two units to keep protection.
I'll also say that, after experimenting between NDK and GMDK, the 50pts is definitely worth it. The NDK got a 9e buff with shooting while engaged and getting to move and shoot without penalty.
But the difference between BS3+ and BS2+ reroll 1s is absurd. The GMDK NEVER misses (with both guns, statistically it's 17.5 hits) compared to the NDK (with only 12 hits).
So Psychic Onslaught is therefore incredibly more CP-efficient on a GMDK.
I still like my flamer/fists NDK coming in from DS. But I will keep the shooting with the GMDK.
Interesting! Three GMNDK's.
They were not top priority in 8th ed list building.
Besides the new rule for shooting heavy weapons, what qualifies them to take room in a competitive army?
They were literally the only good thing GK's had for most of 8th. They just didn't make sense post revamp which was all about troops to farm CP and smite spam.
Well at least this proves on a tournament level GMNDKs and Terminators are playable, hence in basically any game they are still "playable", even if they are not completely, competitively efficient.
I'd say Ven.Dreads are also playable in 9Ed with the right support. I won't be surprised if a savvy GK tourney player realises this, and takes advantage of new terrain rules to rack up victories in 9Ed soon enough as well.
LunarSol wrote: On pure math, Ven Dreads appear pretty good. You won't hear much about them elsewhere because Contemptors are just crazy good.
If some of the predictions of 9Ed shifting to a vehicle-heavy meta comes to fruition, they are actually the GK most efficient ranged anti-armour unit. I'd say 2-3 of them along with Astral Aim, Edict Imperator, and maybe even GoI psychic powers (buffs only a GK army can provide them with) will put in some serious work. A Chaplain (again, only from a GK army) could also make those D6 Damage twin lascannons less swingy (since Brother-Captains could probably be dropped with the reduction of GK smite spam effectiveness).
With the smaller board size, the increase in LOS blocking terrain, 9Ed vehicle shooting buffs, along with their non-degrading stat-line and easier to hide model size they can definitely become a crucial pillar to a playable GK army.
Third place Grey Knights. Awesome keep us updated on tournaments. Thank you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I got three boxes of Brother-Captains and four boxes of Strike Squads. What options should I pick for them? Thank you.
I got three boxes of Brother-Captains and four boxes of Strike Squads. What options should I pick for them? Thank you.
For Strike Squads, Halberds are the most efficient melee weapons currently, and all stormbolters are fine though one psilencer per team is good if you plan to use tide of convergence as well.
For terminator armour models, Halberds again with the Justicar having the Daemonhammer if you have the points. One Warding Stave per team is good too, if you plan to get them into combat (as he will be the one taking the hits first with the 4++ in combat).
wuestenfux wrote: Well, it appears that GW is pushing Primaris with new toys further and further, while other factions are starving.
This is the wrong direction. Who wants to play in a tourney against 2x IH and 2x RG?
No one is taking either of those right now. IH and RG got hit hard by the edition change now the other 4 CTs are all considered largely superior outside of specific lists.
BillyN831 wrote: Would it be optimal to convert Brother-Captains to other units? What options should they take? Thank you.
I don't think the smite nerf is as bad as everyone says. Start battle forged that's +1 to cast so a 4+ smite then empyric surge. Second smite goes off on a 4+ third smite goes off on 5+ after that units start getting affected by the ability. But I personally don't always smite unless it's a daemon army I'm fighting. Hammerhand is more viable now as we don't have to worry about overwatch as often. I'd still use brother captains but if you wanted to you could always just run em as grand masters or librarians.
The advanced rules for Command points state that you cannot
gain, or have refunded, more than 1 Command point per battle
round because of any rules (other than via the exceptions listed
on page 245, such as the Battle-forged CP Bonus)
since we gain 1 CP every command phase form being battle forged, wouldnt that mean that our Empyrean Domination Dominus Disciple would be useless as we cant get more than 1 CP ..
Based on a leaked image for a Terminator unit datasheet...
Terminators have 3 Wounds now!
For Grey Knights this is really big, as we are the only faction that has Terminators as troops and thus ObSec, which is key to missions in 9Ed. Not to mention the majority of our HQ/Characters come stock in Terminator Armour!
How will this effect our Strikes vs Terminator choices now? Or our Terminator vs Paladin choices?
Could our GK army reach Custodes-level of wounds per model?
Many play-testers have said that even with the new core-rules and 9Ed point changes already released, we were still missing "a third" of the complete picture. It looks like drastic datasheet changes, weapon profile changes (eg. power swords +1S, heavy flamer 12" range) is part of that missing piece.
This is a real shake up to our (and many other) army's unit compositions and load-outs! Crazy stuff!
I would hold back on big hopes, remember how 8th edition palyed out when GW "forgot" about the Knights almost all fhe time and took over one year until physic awakening to fix a lot of our glaring problems ...
I would be happy if paladins get 3 and Terminators 2 .. 4/3 would be even better but it feels like they are going to save the best stuff for primaris alone
FFridge wrote: I would be happy if paladins get 3 and Terminators 2 .. 4/3 would be even better but it feels like they are going to save the best stuff for primaris alone
There is certainly the possibility that GW is only giving +1W to "Veteran-level" Firstborn SM...which casts doubt for our Terminators getting any boost, since as per the 8Ed Codex - GKT only have Ld7/8...as they are not as experienced as the Terminator units of every other SM/CSM Terminators.
It's good that you would be happy with 2W GKT and 3W Paladins (as it is now), but if every other Terminator model comes stock with 3W (something they have deserved for a long time), I would be undeniably shattered. Currently at the points they are now, if standard Terminators received 3W...compared to say Primaris Aggressors / Bladeguard (which also have 3W), the points difference for the stats / abilities become much more comparable - with the Primaris still getting much more benefits for costing just that little bit more.
Currently, we pay a little bit more points for our GKT compared to normal Terminators (for the psyker status), but we basically have the same stat-line 2W etc. (-1 Ld though) for a total cost of about 36 vs 38 pts per model. Giving normal Terminators 3W (again something they deserve) for similar points as they are now, bumps them to comparability to their Primaris counterparts. Even if Terminators end up paying a couple more points per model that's about equal points to our GKT - but the normal Terminator squad will come with an extra 5 wounds for the same price. For the possibility of a 12" 1MW smite, or a psychic cast per turn doesn't really balance for the 5 wounds less they have to similarly priced, regular terminator squad Imo.
Thinking about it, it's probable Paladins will stay 3W even at around 50ppm (they still have +1A,+1 Special weapon, +1WS on the Paragon). But, it's really hard to swallow that out of every single Terminator variant in the whole game, only our GKT are unworthy of 3W. You're right that it could certainly be the case, but right now I couldn't be okay with it.
I don't think the smite nerf is as bad as everyone says. Start battle forged that's +1 to cast so a 4+ smite then empyric surge. Second smite goes off on a 4+ third smite goes off on 5+ after that units start getting affected by the ability. But I personally don't always smite unless it's a daemon army I'm fighting. Hammerhand is more viable now as we don't have to worry about overwatch as often. I'd still use brother captains but if you wanted to you could always just run em as grand masters or librarians.
The Brother Captain's sole selling point if the fact that he increased the army's Smite range to 24". Now that he can't provide a castle of dudes long range reliable smites in tide of escalation he, and tide of escalation itself, are functionally useless. It also neuters our psychic game in general because our smites are short-ranged baby smites to compensate for the fact that we could once spam them like no other faction could. Now we get the same cap as everyone else with inferior smites even on characters.
I also hope no one was particularly fond of strike squads (I was), since their big selling point besides being cheaper than terminators was that they were more efficient smite platforms during tide of escalation or even outside of it. 9th edition and its focus on durable units to claim and hold objectives already made them less valuable, but this probably kills them.
I don't think the smite nerf is as bad as everyone says. Start battle forged that's +1 to cast so a 4+ smite then empyric surge. Second smite goes off on a 4+ third smite goes off on 5+ after that units start getting affected by the ability. But I personally don't always smite unless it's a daemon army I'm fighting. Hammerhand is more viable now as we don't have to worry about overwatch as often. I'd still use brother captains but if you wanted to you could always just run em as grand masters or librarians.
The Brother Captain's sole selling point if the fact that he increased the army's Smite range to 24". Now that he can't provide a castle of dudes long range reliable smites in tide of escalation he, and tide of escalation itself, are functionally useless. It also neuters our psychic game in general because our smites are short-ranged baby smites to compensate for the fact that we could once spam them like no other faction could. Now we get the same cap as everyone else with inferior smites even on characters.
I also hope no one was particularly fond of strike squads (I was), since their big selling point besides being cheaper than terminators was that they were more efficient smite platforms during tide of escalation or even outside of it. 9th edition and its focus on durable units to claim and hold objectives already made them less valuable, but this probably kills them.
I think that I'm okey with the changes of smite nerf. Because we have tides of escalation now is not as a big deal as it was at the beginning of 8th edition when we got a simial treatment. On average a baby smite in tides of escalation is dealing a similar amount of MW than a regular smite. Perhaps we lose super smite but we have a +1 to cast.
I think that the problem is mostly for the bonus of the brother captain. I think that he also should boost range for purifiers to make him and the purifiers more viable.
Another thing that imao should be granted, at least fluff wise, but also balance-wise is some sort of protection from perils. In theory one of the strongest points of GK is to be totally incorruptible and to harness total self-restraint against the temptation and perils of the warp. That's the explanation fluff wise of the baby smite rule.
The fact that during the course of a battle I was able to see several perils happen is so un-fluff. Many times I just don't cast smite because of the chance to get perils and lose the whole unit.
Strike units use to be 5 men and each MW is one 17 ppm > model less which also are troop and therefore more likely to been used to hold an objective. So tactical wise the consequence to peril in a strike squad is more sever to perils in a 5-6 wounds character. As the character can fully work with just 1 wound. But a strike squad of 2 marines is heavily hindered.
I think that a cool rule that also will compensate the nerf of the bro captain is something like when not in tides of escalation only peril when casting smite in double 6 instead of double 1 and double 6.
psipso wrote: I think that I'm okey with the changes of smite nerf. Because we have tides of escalation now is not as a big deal as it was at the beginning of 8th edition when we got a simial treatment. On average a baby smite in tides of escalation is dealing a similar amount of MW than a regular smite. Perhaps we lose super smite but we have a +1 to cast.
I think that the problem is mostly for the bonus of the brother captain. I think that he also should boost range for purifiers to make him and the purifiers more viable.
I also hope no one was particularly fond of strike squads (I was), since their big selling point besides being cheaper than terminators was that they were more efficient smite platforms during tide of escalation or even outside of it. 9th edition and its focus on durable units to claim and hold objectives already made them less valuable, but this probably kills them.
It's a garbage change.
I bought 30 dudes from a friend(((
Strikes are getting 2W each now, so it would be 2W SS vs 3W GKT.
So what do you guys think our melee profiles will look like considering the base power sword went to +1s
If they push up the S bonus of our swords (probably should be +2 since they are 2handed swords compared to the little power swords marines have)
where does that leave the halberd ?
Emulgator wrote: So what do you guys think our melee profiles will look like considering the base power sword went to +1s
If they push up the S bonus of our swords (probably should be +2 since they are 2handed swords compared to the little power swords marines have)
where does that leave the halberd ?
Conservatively I'd say the following:
- Nemesis Twin Falchions = S User AP-2 Dd3 (+1A)
- Nemesis Force Sword = S+1 AP-3 Dd3
- Nemesis Force Halberd = S+2 AP-2 Dd3
- NemesisWarding Stave = S+3 AP-1 Dd3
- Nemesis Daemonhammer = Sx2 AP-3 D4
My wish-listing would change Damage d3 to Damage d2+1 (since all fully-trained SM start at 2W now).
Also, since heavy flamers are 12" range and Heavy bolters are D2, hopefully GW will be generous enough to give our Incinerators 12" range and psycannons D2. Heavy psycannons wish-listing would be a flat Damage 3. Super wish-listing is if the Twin-Psycannons costs 2x Heavy Psycannon (eg. 50 points)...why not also give them the profile of 2x Heavy psycannons...? Crazy idea I know, but c'mon GW humour me just this once...??
- Nemesis Twin Falchions = S User AP-2 Dd3 (+1A)
- Nemesis Force Sword = S+1 AP-3 Dd3
- Nemesis Force Halberd = S+2 AP-2 Dd3
- NemesisWarding Stave = S+3 AP-1 Dd3
- Nemesis Daemonhammer = Sx2 AP-3 D4
These numbers look very reasonable, except I'd say that Staves are still S+2 since they have the invuln special rule. If this is what happens, I'll move away from halberds and have everyone with swords. The difference between S5 and S6 is pretty negligible game-wide.
I have a casual flowchart inside my head when determining which weapons I'd rather have (statistically). First I want what hits the best. Then I want what wounds the best. Then (depending on optimal targets) I want good damage. And then finally I look at AP. I'd rather be in a better wounding bracket than an additional AP, for example.
kinda makes sense that swords would be the best choice since after changing all halberds to falchions in 8th its only natural to have to clip off all those arms for 9th again lol
if swords go to +1s i guess falchions at 4pts for +1A but -1s and -1ap seems like a hard pill to swallow (especially since interecessors only pay 2 points to have 1 more attack compared to marinelets)
for halberds id actually like to have a rule to always strike first like when they used to give +2 initiative but thats probably too strong/too much to wish for ^^
maybe if they were costed properly/expensive`ish so youd only take 1-2 per squad and go more for a mixed weapon approach (like 1 hammer 1 staff 2 halbs 2 swords for 5man)
- Nemesis Twin Falchions = S User AP-2 Dd3 (+1A)
- Nemesis Force Sword = S+1 AP-3 Dd3
- Nemesis Force Halberd = S+2 AP-2 Dd3
- NemesisWarding Stave = S+3 AP-1 Dd3
- Nemesis Daemonhammer = Sx2 AP-3 D4
These numbers look very reasonable, except I'd say that Staves are still S+2 since they have the invuln special rule. If this is what happens, I'll move away from halberds and have everyone with swords. The difference between S5 and S6 is pretty negligible game-wide.
Personally, I'd plan to split the loadout between Halberds and Swords about evenly.
Death Guard, Custodes (particularly T6 jetbikes), Centurions, Primaris Outriders and Aggressors are tough opponents for us in combat. Sure, Hammerhand can help T5 Swords wound T5 on 3+ or T6 on 4+, but you can only ever cast that on 1 squad per turn, and even then the power could fail or be denied, in which case you're wounding tough targets on 4+ or even 5+ base.
I'd rather have some of my models wounding T5 on 3+ naturally, and worse case scenario wound those T6 Custodes jetbikes on 4+. That is, if all the weapons but the Daemonhammer end up costing the same. Twin-Falchions should also cost the same as the other weapons with those estimated stat-lines.
Emulgator wrote: kinda makes sense that swords would be the best choice since after changing all halberds to falchions in 8th its only natural to have to clip off all those arms for 9th again lol
This is why I always magnetize my models. All of my 30 Strikes and 10 Interceptors are magnetized at the shoulder, same with my 20 Terminator/Paladin models. The 'best' weapon always changes, so it's nice to be able to swap that stuff around.
If now with firstborn marines having 2 wounds purifiers will be worth considering?
They have this strat that can give them a 4++. With 2 wounds per model suddenly this start becomes more efficient. I also dunno if adding sanctuary they can get a 3++. But if so, then they might be able to hold an objective quite decently.
I've experimented a bit between NDK and GMDK. The 50pts is definitely worth it. The NDK got a 9e buff with shooting while engaged and getting to move and shoot without penalty.
But the difference between BS3+ and BS2+ reroll 1s is absurd. The GMDK NEVER misses (with both guns, statistically it's 17.5 hits) compared to the NDK (with only 12 hits).
So Psychic Onslaught is therefore incredibly more CP-efficient on a GMDK.
I still like my flamer/fists NDK coming in from DS. But I will keep the shooting with the GMDK.
The same GK player (Ben Cherwin) who took the previous 3rd Place list, also participated in the recent Flying Monkey GT. He was placed 10th (out of 74), and was the highest ranked GK player at the tourney. He adjusted his list though to this:
HQ - GMNDK (WLT - First to the Fray, Greathammer, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Augurium Scrolls, Teleporter, GoI)
- GMNDK (Greathammer, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Teleporter, Sanctuary)
- Draigo (Edict Imperator, Inner Flame)
In the GK Facebook group there is a bit of not-so-friendly rivalry between Ben and Matthew (the other GK list, which beat Ben’s). Bear in mind the tournament ruled to agree with Ben Cherwim that Tide of Shadows gives -1 to hit in the open so people never left Shadows.
greyknight12 wrote: In the GK Facebook group there is a bit of not-so-friendly rivalry between Ben and Matthew (the other GK list, which beat Ben’s). Bear in mind the tournament ruled to agree with Ben Cherwim that Tide of Shadows gives -1 to hit in the open so people never left Shadows.
which is wrong and its why i dont trust the List or skills of Ben at all .. If you have to resort to shenanigans to make your list work (for example how he had 2050 points in his first list) then you most likely dont understand your army fully. I dont even know why the tournament organizators would allow such a rule to exist.
I've experimented a bit between NDK and GMDK. The 50pts is definitely worth it. The NDK got a 9e buff with shooting while engaged and getting to move and shoot without penalty.
But the difference between BS3+ and BS2+ reroll 1s is absurd. The GMDK NEVER misses (with both guns, statistically it's 17.5 hits) compared to the NDK (with only 12 hits).
So Psychic Onslaught is therefore incredibly more CP-efficient on a GMDK.
I still like my flamer/fists NDK coming in from DS. But I will keep the shooting with the GMDK.
I like having a 'dreadknight wing' you will. I have a gmndk and a few ndk with him to benefit from his aura of reroll 1s. Ndks with a reroll aura nearby are just as killy as the gmndk last edition (arguably more killy cause shooting in cc) and for less points than the 8th gmndk.
Will test this out soon. But planning on 1 gmndk, and 3 ndk all kitted with sword, psilencer, and psycannon. They teleport strike together.
Or I might trade out the gmndk for draigo for better rerolls and draigo is awesome
greyknight12 wrote: In the GK Facebook group there is a bit of not-so-friendly rivalry between Ben and Matthew (the other GK list, which beat Ben’s). Bear in mind the tournament ruled to agree with Ben Cherwim that Tide of Shadows gives -1 to hit in the open so people never left Shadows.
which is wrong and its why i dont trust the List or skills of Ben at all .. If you have to resort to shenanigans to make your list work (for example how he had 2050 points in his first list) then you most likely dont understand your army fully. I dont even know why the tournament organizators would allow such a rule to exist.
What's the argument behind this? I cannot find anything that would support such an interpretation.
I've experimented a bit between NDK and GMDK. The 50pts is definitely worth it. The NDK got a 9e buff with shooting while engaged and getting to move and shoot without penalty.
But the difference between BS3+ and BS2+ reroll 1s is absurd. The GMDK NEVER misses (with both guns, statistically it's 17.5 hits) compared to the NDK (with only 12 hits).
So Psychic Onslaught is therefore incredibly more CP-efficient on a GMDK.
I still like my flamer/fists NDK coming in from DS. But I will keep the shooting with the GMDK.
I like having a 'dreadknight wing' you will. I have a gmndk and a few ndk with him to benefit from his aura of reroll 1s. Ndks with a reroll aura nearby are just as killy as the gmndk last edition (arguably more killy cause shooting in cc) and for less points than the 8th gmndk.
Will test this out soon. But planning on 1 gmndk, and 3 ndk all kitted with sword, psilencer, and psycannon. They teleport strike together.
Or I might trade out the gmndk for draigo for better rerolls and draigo is awesome
Yeah. I have 5 or 6 DK models, so the though of throwing all of them on the table has crossed my mind a few times. You could definitely swarm/threat overload someone with the regular ones.
FFridge wrote: and abusing such RAW rules will often lead to nerfs of our fraction, which isnt helping the whole thing
Why worry about tomorrow when you can win today and sell the army later?
That doesn't really work out for dedicated GK players, unless of course if instead - you're more of a meta chaser and army flipper.
That is, you look up for proven tournament winning army lists (or wait till someone posts it up for you), chose which of those "net lists" you can most easily acquire (trade/borrow models, buy the cheapest number of box-kits required etc.), copy the strategies on the table and probably get those extra wins...till the meta changes / catches up / GW swings its standard heavy nerf bat...then prepare your current army (GK in this case) to be sold/traded, as soon as you sniff on the wind a different tournament winning army...rinse and repeat.
I don't think the smite nerf is as bad as everyone says. Start battle forged that's +1 to cast so a 4+ smite then empyric surge. Second smite goes off on a 4+ third smite goes off on 5+ after that units start getting affected by the ability. But I personally don't always smite unless it's a daemon army I'm fighting. Hammerhand is more viable now as we don't have to worry about overwatch as often. I'd still use brother captains but if you wanted to you could always just run em as grand masters or librarians.
The Brother Captain's sole selling point if the fact that he increased the army's Smite range to 24". Now that he can't provide a castle of dudes long range reliable smites in tide of escalation he, and tide of escalation itself, are functionally useless. It also neuters our psychic game in general because our smites are short-ranged baby smites to compensate for the fact that we could once spam them like no other faction could. Now we get the same cap as everyone else with inferior smites even on characters.
I also hope no one was particularly fond of strike squads (I was), since their big selling point besides being cheaper than terminators was that they were more efficient smite platforms during tide of escalation or even outside of it. 9th edition and its focus on durable units to claim and hold objectives already made them less valuable, but this probably kills them.
It's a garbage change.
yes, and to add, we need even less minimum troops, so less strikes = less smites = less need for escalation. The battalion detachment also limits the number of HQ we can take by one (I think?), so it's also convenient to NOT take a BC. All around, until the new codex comes out, GK are in a less-than-optimal position with the smite limbo we've been put in.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I'm toying with the idea to add three Invictors to my GK.
They can be an absolute pain for an enemy army that is not really prepared for them.
Just remember that you lose tides with any allies.
BillyN831 wrote: Are Brother-Captains or Grand Masters better? Thank you.
Depends on what you want to do. Both are a support character with strong beatstick abilities. Profiles are essentially the same except for an extra attack on the GM. Both can take the same loadouts.
GMs are 138(with a sword/halberd) and BCs are 118.
Is the point difference worth it? I'd say that 20pts is overpriced for a single attack. However, GMs also let you reroll 1s for all units within 6". That's a very powerful ability.
The BC makes your smites 24" instead of 18" and doesn't have the reroll bubble.
I've pretty much stopped using any tides except Shadows, given the increasing warp cost of our smites. In addition to being one less thing to keep track of, it also lets me not take the associated psychic power (if I really need that slot for something else).
So then this would cinch it for me. HOWEVER, I don't really take a GM either, since I instead take GMDK, who have the same ability.
BillyN831 wrote: Are Brother-Captains or Grand Masters better? Thank you.
Depends on what you want to do. Both are a support character with strong beatstick abilities. Profiles are essentially the same except for an extra attack on the GM. Both can take the same loadouts.
GMs are 138(with a sword/halberd) and BCs are 118.
Is the point difference worth it? I'd say that 20pts is overpriced for a single attack. However, GMs also let you reroll 1s for all units within 6". That's a very powerful ability.
The BC makes your smites 24" instead of 18" and doesn't have the reroll bubble.
I've pretty much stopped using any tides except Shadows, given the increasing warp cost of our smites. In addition to being one less thing to keep track of, it also lets me not take the associated psychic power (if I really need that slot for something else).
So then this would cinch it for me. HOWEVER, I don't really take a GM either, since I instead take GMDK, who have the same ability.
Make your smite 24" instead of 12". He doubles the smite range of 12. Rites of banishment makes smite 12"
Also, I want to see how smite spam goes with 2w purifier spam. Not likely highly competitive, but want to do a crowe, bc, purifier from land raiders build. We start our smite at +1 to cast and have a strat to give a +1 cast aura, so it will take a few casts for them to become unreliable. Add in a relic to reroll a cast a turn. I think it can work.
BillyN831 wrote: Are Brother-Captains or Grand Masters better? Thank you.
Depends on what you want to do. Both are a support character with strong beatstick abilities. Profiles are essentially the same except for an extra attack on the GM. Both can take the same loadouts.
GMs are 138(with a sword/halberd) and BCs are 118.
Is the point difference worth it? I'd say that 20pts is overpriced for a single attack. However, GMs also let you reroll 1s for all units within 6". That's a very powerful ability.
The BC makes your smites 24" instead of 18" and doesn't have the reroll bubble.
I've pretty much stopped using any tides except Shadows, given the increasing warp cost of our smites. In addition to being one less thing to keep track of, it also lets me not take the associated psychic power (if I really need that slot for something else).
So then this would cinch it for me. HOWEVER, I don't really take a GM either, since I instead take GMDK, who have the same ability.
Make your smite 24" instead of 12". He doubles the smite range of 12. Rites of banishment makes smite 12"
Also, I want to see how smite spam goes with 2w purifier spam. Not likely highly competitive, but want to do a crowe, bc, purifier from land raiders build. We start our smite at +1 to cast and have a strat to give a +1 cast aura, so it will take a few casts for them to become unreliable. Add in a relic to reroll a cast a turn. I think it can work.
That sounds right to me brother. I support you in your purification burden
Just remember to bring a couple of incinerators for extra purging of never borns.
The Brother Captain's sole selling point if the fact that he increased the army's Smite range to 24". Now that he can't provide a castle of dudes long range reliable smites in tide of escalation he, and tide of escalation itself, are functionally useless. It also neuters our psychic game in general because our smites are short-ranged baby smites to compensate for the fact that we could once spam them like no other faction could. Now we get the same cap as everyone else with inferior smites even on characters.
I also hope no one was particularly fond of strike squads (I was), since their big selling point besides being cheaper than terminators was that they were more efficient smite platforms during tide of escalation or even outside of it. 9th edition and its focus on durable units to claim and hold objectives already made them less valuable, but this probably kills them.
^ Looks like 30 Strikes is still tournament competitive. I like how in 9Ed, either Terminator troops, or Strike troops are tournament worthy now, you just need to learn how to play them to the best effect. Just like some other tournament lists, I myself use a combination of both!
As predicted, Venerable dreads also keeping their place in numerous competitive GK tourney lists too!
wuestenfux wrote: The following GT list looks quite interesting:
In view of performing actions, are Servitors now a good idea to integrate?
Regardless if they are good or bad they are the cheapest screen that we can have without breaking our tides bonus as they have the GK keyword and the most efficient way to bring body numbers.
wuestenfux wrote: The following GT list looks quite interesting:
In view of performing actions, are Servitors now a good idea to integrate?
Regardless if they are good or bad they are the cheapest screen that we can have without breaking our tides bonus as they have the GK keyword and the most efficient way to bring body numbers.
How important is body count in 9th edition?
Well, I'm looking for proxy models when it comes to Servitors.
Guardsmen would be a fluffy choice but Servitors look definitely different.
wuestenfux wrote: The following GT list looks quite interesting:
In view of performing actions, are Servitors now a good idea to integrate?
Regardless if they are good or bad they are the cheapest screen that we can have without breaking our tides bonus as they have the GK keyword and the most efficient way to bring body numbers.
How important is body count in 9th edition?
Well, I'm looking for proxy models when it comes to Servitors.
Guardsmen would be a fluffy choice but Servitors look definitely different.
I've kitbashed mines from mixin bits of genestealers cults and skitaris that comes on my kill team box. Fluff wise there is also the Deimos forgeworld which is exclusively dedicated to serving the needs of the chapter 666, including servitors. So I guess that skitari also can be justified fluff wise.
Updates from the FAQ: New marine weapons for the faction, which has limited usefulness outside of vehicles since everyone has bespoke GK weapons anyway. Also, RIP Draigo as storm shields are now the +1 / 4++ from SM; that said he can still get by with a little help from his friends (or himself) with Sanctuary or Heed to get back to a 3++. No statline changes yet.
Some interesting potential for the future codex with our Nemesis Force Weapons, based on changes to power weapons.
greyknight12 wrote: Updates from the FAQ: New marine weapons for the faction, which has limited usefulness outside of vehicles since everyone has bespoke GK weapons anyway. Also, RIP Draigo as storm shields are now the +1 / 4++ from SM; that said he can still get by with a little help from his friends (or himself) with Sanctuary or Heed to get back to a 3++. No statline changes yet.
Some interesting potential for the future codex with our Nemesis Force Weapons, based on changes to power weapons.
Overall I was very disappointed. Every other chapter now has 2W marines, 3W Termies. The closest analogue to Paladins, DA Inner Circle Termies, now have an innate Transhuman effect.
Even TSons, since they have force weapons on Sorcerers, got an upgrade. Not our special snowflake Nemesis.
Also, there will nearly ALWAYS be a better target for Sanctuary than Draigo. GMDK or Terminator blob will get a lot more survivability out of it than a single character. Heed is a better choice, but still rather expensive for a T4 7W unit.
Also, there's a new SM power that gives a 5++ bubble. Whereas ours is a single unit gets a 5++.
greyknight12 wrote: Updates from the FAQ: New marine weapons for the faction, which has limited usefulness outside of vehicles since everyone has bespoke GK weapons anyway. Also, RIP Draigo as storm shields are now the +1 / 4++ from SM; that said he can still get by with a little help from his friends (or himself) with Sanctuary or Heed to get back to a 3++. No statline changes yet.
Some interesting potential for the future codex with our Nemesis Force Weapons, based on changes to power weapons.
Overall I was very disappointed. Every other chapter now has 2W marines, 3W Termies. The closest analogue to Paladins, DA Inner Circle Termies, now have an innate Transhuman effect.
Even TSons, since they have force weapons on Sorcerers, got an upgrade. Not our special snowflake Nemesis.
Also, there will nearly ALWAYS be a better target for Sanctuary than Draigo. GMDK or Terminator blob will get a lot more survivability out of it than a single character. Heed is a better choice, but still rather expensive for a T4 7W unit.
Also, there's a new SM power that gives a 5++ bubble. Whereas ours is a single unit gets a 5++.
I’ve had exactly 1 game with them and swapped back to Custodes. Long story short, Paladin bomb worked because of 8th Ed ITC and playing against normal marines is being outclassed in 3/4 of the phases. I think a lot of people (myself included) are waiting to see what a new codex brings.
I looked at Game Workshop website and did not find Grand Masters. Is kit bashing Brother Captains into Grand Masters good? How many daemon hammers and incinerators in a Strike Squad? How are Brother-Captain Stern and Castellan Crowe fluff wise?
greyknight12 wrote: I’ve had exactly 1 game with them and swapped back to Custodes. Long story short, Paladin bomb worked because of 8th Ed ITC and playing against normal marines is being outclassed in 3/4 of the phases. I think a lot of people (myself included) are waiting to see what a new codex brings.
GK infantry army takes 1st Place at recent Fall Brawl Tournament:
All GK infantry, over 75 models, including a Brotherhood Champion, 10 Interceptors, 15 Purgation, 20 Strikes....AND 30 Purifiers!
Even surpassing runners up:
- 3rd Place DA Deathwing Army (majority Terminator models)
- 2nd Place Necrons Army (the beastly Silent King included)
Who needs that extra infantry wound? (Yeah, we still do lol, but the proven GK tourney winner shows even without our Codex...GKs don't have to lose competitively all the time...??)
BillyN831 wrote: I looked at Game Workshop website and did not find Grand Masters. Is kit bashing Brother Captains into Grand Masters good? How many daemon hammers and incinerators in a Strike Squad? How are Brother-Captain Stern and Castellan Crowe fluff wise?
I know . I got like 2 games in while gk were awesome before covid. Lol
I feel like 9th edition is build exacly for Grey Knights.
Games are shorter, only 5 turns, tabling opponent means nothing if he wins on points, that is a huge win for more elite armies that like to exchange their arguments. It also means there are not many good "shooting castle" strategies that will abuse range against you.
Short games also means, that armies who are active and dominant in more then 1 phase are much better, becouse you have overall less time to deal with your opponent, you better do it fast, and I think GK is just perfect for this,
plenty of buffing powers and mortal wound bombs, aswell as armywide stormbolters who offer a lot of shots, usually under reroll to hit
last but not least, smash heroes, one of the best if not the best CC unit (Palladin bomb),
armywide force weapons. Yes, please
Smaller tables, and mission's all about objectives - that's exacly what we needed, we fight best at mid to close range, so anything from 1" to 24" is our home, and that's what new mission's force you to, if your opponent try to outrange you, it mean's he cant hold objectives. Thats great !
Durable objective secured units, well I think, terminators in troops is definition of durable obsec unit, under the Tide of shadows we are looking at 1+/5++ and possibly even -1 to hit.
We are not nurgling's but damn, we are close, especially with almost free armywide deepstrike ability.
Some of our best strategies (not a smite spam unfortunetly) got a buff in this edition, Palladin bomb in a metagame that force players to fight in close range in order to take away points and hold your own objective's.
GMNDK wing, they were good, now, that you almost always want to keep yourself in tide of shadows against shooty matchups,no penalities for moving and shooting heavy - all of this is great.
Vehicles got better, vehicles with tide of shadow's got better better.
Why do we struggle to fight our way to a top ?
Points efficiency, with the new codex'es we pay 100% more for each power armour wound, and 50% more for each terminator wound, we have limited access to a new toys that most of marines got and got a little outdated ruleset (WL traits, Relics - although we have some cool combos there, and chaplain buffing single unit ).
I think once we get update of +1 wound to power armour bodies and terminator bodies we will be super strong.
Now we field like 50-75% of wounds other marine army represent on the same point's which put's us in very though spot, our glory will come with the codex update.
Ok, now lets get to the "tactic" section, have you guys try to play 3x Purifire squads with Crowe into either LRC or 3x Razorback to sit on objectives in tide of shadows and create super big threat for something that comes close (4xd6 mortal wounds, 60 bolter shots, 30-45 force weapon attacks) ?
One of the main reasons GK suffers currently is that the meta is geared towards killing Marines--specifically, T5 W3 Sv3+ marines. Paladins are slightly worse T, slightly better Sv. PAGK are just bad. We don't have any boosts to charges. Chappies are too unreliable and circumstantial to justify the cost.
GMDK really are the saving grace of the book.
Our aging psychic powers, paying a points premium for psychic units that don't contribute, and lack of relic choices (there are really just two, Shard and the Matrix), make us pretty low tier.
Elric Greywolf wrote: One of the main reasons GK suffers currently is that the meta is geared towards killing Marines--specifically, T5 W3 Sv3+ marines. Paladins are slightly worse T, slightly better Sv. PAGK are just bad. We don't have any boosts to charges. Chappies are too unreliable and circumstantial to justify the cost.
GMDK really are the saving grace of the book.
Our aging psychic powers, paying a points premium for psychic units that don't contribute, and lack of relic choices (there are really just two, Shard and the Matrix), make us pretty low tier.
In ITC last ed we were pretty strong toward the end, and this was largely due to the fact that 1st floor ruins were considered solid. We could safely apply midfield pressure with a crazy paladin unit. 9th is a little more rough.
Yeah, there was a good build with some fun character variation towards the end of 8e.
I think what would really boost GK up is getting that additional wound to put us in line with other Marines AND getting a special army-wide rule (in addition to Tides) that lets us have 2-3 (or unlimited) casts of the same Sanctic Powers. That way we could have Hammerhand in two places when we need it, or have every unit on the field with a 5++ thanks to Sanctuary, or etc.
With two trees to pick from, you could even move all the MW powers to the Dominus discipline and keep those limited to one cast per turn.
But just imagine your whole ARMY gating forward on T1, instead of just a single unit. That would be so cool!
I'm pretty sure the biggest addition / change to 9Ed Codex GKs is the Brotherhood sub-faction rule system. They are revealing tidbits for the Death Guard's 7 Plague Companies. I can easily 6-8 GK brotherhoods filled with new rules.
Waking Dreamer wrote: I'm pretty sure the biggest addition / change to 9Ed Codex GKs is the Brotherhood sub-faction rule system. They are revealing tidbits for the Death Guard's 7 Plague Companies. I can easily 6-8 GK brotherhoods filled with new rules.
Great job on the codex! I'd love to see some of those rules on the table!
I especially like the falchion relic. I always choose anything BUT the falchions on characters...but those definitely make it an interesting pick. +2 to wound with hammerhand would be so many dead Primaris!
The more I theory craft the better grey knights seem to me, especially in the metagame pushing towards more mele orientated armies. Becouse how new WWSWF works ive been thinking off:
Draigo deathball - draigo himself, 3x purigation squads full heavy weapons , 3x 10 purifire squads 4 heavy weapons.
You make sure purifires are your most expensive units in the armylist , then you combat squad them into a Teams with heavy weapons and just stormbolters, leaving the regular ones somewhere safe in your deployment blocking deepstrikes / outflanks which almost guarantees full points on WWSWF secondary( they need to kill both halfes of the squad to deny you a points) The heavy weapon team join draigo alongside purigators . Now you have 24 heavy weapons dealing somewhere between 96-144 at least dmg2 str5 shots under the tide of dakkadakka (dependens on the number of psilencers and psycannons). with a hit ratio of 75% on avarage(after the movement, if you remain stationary thats even better)
If anything comes close you have your d6 mortal wound smites.
In the most expensive version its 1258 points so you still have some points left for other stuff. The burst dmg is insane , you give up abor the witch points easly but thats how it has to be.
The other strategy ive been thinking off is utilising our mobility and double use of psybolt ammunition stratagem via edict imperator spell for a whole 3 turns without much counterplay by your opponent .
Basicly you need one ten men squad of whatever unit you choose (preferably palladins or terminators becouse they always rapidfire at 24” range)
U keep this unit safe behind a los blocker using astral aim and edict + psybolt to shoot in psychic phase.
Then turn 1 you use interceptors movement and shoot them with psybolt stratagem in the shooting phase, while using gate of infinity on purigation squad ( and if possible chaplain with „No to hit and ballistic skill modifires” and etheral manipulation spell for a full reroll). Turn 2 and 3 you repeat the process but instead of using interceptors you just deepstrike terminators/strike squads and maybe some GMNDK for a rerolls. This strategy let you unload 80 str 6 -1ap dmg2 shots + 16-24 purigator shots for 3 turns with high accuracy delivering them almost anywhere on the board.
You need to play it off the batalion becouse its very cp hungry but the mobility and just flat damage it provides just seems insane to me. You dont really need that much durability if you kill anything that could punch you back but you can squeeze in some terminators with defensive spells or even palladins for your deepstriking units if you want.
Let me know guys, what do you think about that.
Jabberscythe wrote: The more I theory craft the better grey knights seem to me, especially in the metagame pushing towards more mele orientated armies. Becouse how new WWSWF works ive been thinking off:
Draigo deathball - draigo himself, 3x purigation squads full heavy weapons , 3x 10 purifire squads 4 heavy weapons.
You make sure purifires are your most expensive units in the armylist , then you combat squad them into a Teams with heavy weapons and just stormbolters, leaving the regular ones somewhere safe in your deployment blocking deepstrikes / outflanks which almost guarantees full points on WWSWF secondary( they need to kill both halfes of the squad to deny you a points) The heavy weapon team join draigo alongside purigators . Now you have 24 heavy weapons dealing somewhere between 96-144 at least dmg2 str5 shots under the tide of dakkadakka (dependens on the number of psilencers and psycannons). with a hit ratio of 75% on avarage(after the movement, if you remain stationary thats even better)
If anything comes close you have your d6 mortal wound smites.
In the most expensive version its 1258 points so you still have some points left for other stuff. The burst dmg is insane , you give up abor the witch points easly but thats how it has to be.
The other strategy ive been thinking off is utilising our mobility and double use of psybolt ammunition stratagem via edict imperator spell for a whole 3 turns without much counterplay by your opponent .
Basicly you need one ten men squad of whatever unit you choose (preferably palladins or terminators becouse they always rapidfire at 24” range)
U keep this unit safe behind a los blocker using astral aim and edict + psybolt to shoot in psychic phase.
Then turn 1 you use interceptors movement and shoot them with psybolt stratagem in the shooting phase, while using gate of infinity on purigation squad ( and if possible chaplain with „No to hit and ballistic skill modifires” and etheral manipulation spell for a full reroll). Turn 2 and 3 you repeat the process but instead of using interceptors you just deepstrike terminators/strike squads and maybe some GMNDK for a rerolls. This strategy let you unload 80 str 6 -1ap dmg2 shots + 16-24 purigator shots for 3 turns with high accuracy delivering them almost anywhere on the board.
You need to play it off the batalion becouse its very cp hungry but the mobility and just flat damage it provides just seems insane to me. You dont really need that much durability if you kill anything that could punch you back but you can squeeze in some terminators with defensive spells or even palladins for your deepstriking units if you want.
Let me know guys, what do you think about that.
Your first strategy is how I played 6th ed (without the modern rules ofc.)
Your 2nd strategy is how I play 8th and 9th. It puts out decent damage when you manage it correctly. I know a lot of people aren't fans of purg squads, but I just hold them in reserve if I'm worried.
Paladins are still a very solid unit that can contend and bully units off of objectives and whittle down other units. I take mine with 4 psilencers for tide of shooting.
Ven dreads are eh. They need the space marine treatment for some durability. I'm still sore that autocannons and h. Psycannons aren't allowed anymore. So, I've been thinking of running some with a ccw and a multi melta since the MM buff and some reduced points. I've seen some batreps put these to decent use. 24" range isn't as bad as it used to be with the smaller boards.
So this is an incredibly dumb question, but where are all the most current GK rules? I assume the last Codex + FAQS, but is anything notable elsewhere like a Psychic Awakening book?
May I ask what it added to them that so turned them around?
I have a ten year old GK army that I am dusting off and repainting in between my wife and I building new Necron and Death Guard, and always love having very divergent playing armies available to us. Thing is, wysiwyg, the models are all over the place, and I imagine I will need to hunt down a mountain of new special weapon bits.
It's mostly the psychic tides and strategems. And a new psychic discipline available to characters not squads. Honestly I don't think there were any new data sheets or weapon changes.
Also, I haven't thought about this relic since 8th... how's the fury of deimos feeling in tide of shooting? It becomes a 6 shot str 6 ap-1 2d weapon yes?
I think that there are people that can make a Land Raider work, but that the vehicle is sub-optimal compared to some of the other options out there. It's just too expensive and easy to kill to be viable against lists that are gearing up for Dark Angels and Death Guard.
So, grey knights have definitely got to be a higher tier than many say. For time restraints, I played a 1k game against imperial knights army yesterday and tabled the imperial knights by turn 2. That shouldn't happen.
Smotejob wrote: So, grey knights have definitely got to be a higher tier than many say. For time restraints, I played a 1k game against imperial knights army yesterday and tabled the imperial knights by turn 2. That shouldn't happen.
Siegler believes GK are top tier. You just need to play them kina like Tau from what I've seen of how he handles them.
IK aren't in a great place either so I can believe you tabled him.
Smotejob wrote: So, grey knights have definitely got to be a higher tier than many say. For time restraints, I played a 1k game against imperial knights army yesterday and tabled the imperial knights by turn 2. That shouldn't happen.
Siegler believes GK are top tier. You just need to play them kina like Tau from what I've seen of how he handles them.
IK aren't in a great place either so I can believe you tabled him.
How I play them is different based on the archetype play style of my opponent. Sometimes I gunline them. Sometimes I play very cagey trying to pull my opponent in every direction. Sometimes it's just run into the middle and brawl.
BillyN831 wrote: What is the optimal configuration of paladins? Thank you.
A block of 10 is a good middle field tarpit. Several groups of 3-5 are good harassment units and are much easier to hide in terrain.
In terms of guns, it depends on what you want to do with Tides and Chappies. Taking full SBs makes good use of Psybolts, but psilencers/psycannons can do serious damage when supported by Focus Prayer and Convergence Tide.
For melee, a hammer on the Paragon makes good use of his WS2+, but it might be too pricey if you have multiple units of them. I like a mix of halberds and staves, personally.
), I've been trying to come up with as competitive a list as is possible using this collection of mostly uncompetitive units, particularly using the larger Plastics Termi's as a Paladin centerpiece with the metals and their slightly reduced scale used as Troops terminators.
everyone else cause it's time for 
