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2020/04/03 07:54:29
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
wuestenfux wrote: Well, before the new rules and stratagems, I'd usually played 2 GMDKNs deep striking in round 2.
They were a good add-on to a mediocre army.
But now as the army got new strength, GMDKNs are no longer a must have, just an add-on in friendly games.
Yup, pretty much this.
If they had also received buffs from Tide of convergence, that is be able to deliver:
- 6 S8 AP-1 D3 shots and
- 12 S5 AP0 Dd3+1 shots
Do you think they would be a competitive alternative to a Paladin bomb. Or at least instead of the second Paladin bomb.
Well, they would dish out more damage but their survivability is still questionable.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Paladins still have almost 4 times the number of attacks, and are infinitely more durable. The best part about the full infantry list is that you can hide your paladins and decide when you expose them, so you can keep the second unit safe until the first dies or you need it. Also, going second and hiding your whole army out of LOS is super powerful, specially in competitive games, since you waste your opponent's first turn (minimum) and deny him kill points, while gaining a very big advantage when it comes to objectives. It's specially good against marines, because they lose their best doctrine.
2020/04/03 13:59:53
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
It’s kind of a moot point since they didn’t receive the buffs, but if Dreadknights did they would definitely be more of an interesting option.
The “fun unit” I’m trying figure out right now is dreadnoughts. Since they are psyker they get the Shadows perks, and while I’ve been running one to astral aim into vehicles/thunder fire cannons I’m wondering if a full gunline of them backing up a paladin bomb (or just a bunch of infantry) has any value. If the auto cannons weren’t “Legended” I think there would be some potential there.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/04/05 08:23:08
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Well, I used to play three Dreads with dual autocannons with astral aim backed up by one or two Techmarines.
If in cover, its a decent fire support force.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
I tried the dreadnoughts and they are really bad. They are simply too expensive for how little damage they do and how fragile they are.
To have a decent chance to kill an enemy tank per turn, you need three of them with lascannons and missile launchers, costing you 435 points, which is the same than a full 10 man paladin unit. If one of them dies, you are no longer killing a unit per turn, and your army does not have any more shooting to finish off those wounded targets. Their psychic abilities are wasted, being too far a away to cast smites, and astral aim being more useful in a big unit of paladins. They can be shot easily, since they can't hide, and are very fragile.
They have the same problems dreadknights have, just worse. Just compare them to a whirlwind, an invictor suit or a nightspinner, all of them have better shotting, better durability, better mobility and are cheaper, or to a chaplain dread, that has a ton of advantage for 20 or so more points. Dradnoughts should cost no more than 90 points to be playable.
2020/04/05 13:05:51
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Well, at the competitive level it is better to play either an infantry army or a fully armored army.
Then either anti-tank weapons or anti-infantry weapons are wasted.
E.g., an Eldar tank army with Falcons, Serpents, Fire Prisms and Night Spinners, is rather resilient at the competitive level these days. I'm glad that GK regained some strength as a full infantry army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/05 13:41:27
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
So the "Dynamic Insertion" stratagem says it only works for units with "Teleport Strike". Lord Kaldor Draigo has "Warp Emergence", not TS. Is he still eligible? RaI says yes, RaW says no. Thoughts?
2020/04/13 03:08:54
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
You should not use inner fire with Draigo anyway. You want him to be close to your army for rerolls, so he should not be reserved, anyway. Most importantly, every one of Draigo's wounds is much more valuable than those of other characters, but they all lose wounds to inner fire at the same rate, so you should never use it with him, but with a librarian or apothecary instead.
2020/04/13 15:28:04
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Seizeman wrote: You should not use inner fire with Draigo anyway. You want him to be close to your army for rerolls, so he should not be reserved, anyway. Most importantly, every one of Draigo's wounds is much more valuable than those of other characters, but they all lose wounds to inner fire at the same rate, so you should never use it with him, but with a librarian or apothecary instead.
Ahh good point.
2020/04/15 02:26:36
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Spartan117xyz wrote: Okay, okay, here’s some pants on head stuff/tin foil hat theory.
Crowe....
Inner fire, maybe gate
Use dynamic insertion, powerful adept, and uhh the increase range one.
He uses his big smite, and inner fire. Dumps like 15 mortal wounds. Then gates to safety
Then.....does it again? Could be a lot of mortal wounds.
Since Crowe doesn't have Teleport Strike you can't use Dynamic Insertion on him.
Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
2020/04/15 09:07:57
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Also, since Crowe doesn't have the Rites of Banishment ability, you can't use powerful adept on him. Even if you could do all that, that would be less than 9 mortals, not 15.
What you can use dynamic insertion for is to position a strike squad (or something else) so they can cast a nice big vortex of doom. I've managed to deal 22 wounds with a single cast before thanks to that.
2020/04/15 17:51:44
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Not to pooh-pooh anyone (at all, seriously)...but I've been really baffled by all the "OMG you can do VORTEX!" commentary. In the Art of War Interview with Lawrence Baker after his double-pally win, all John (one of the hosts) could talk about was Vortex potential, and I was listening like "what about Inner Fire?"
Vortex of Doom has 2 main restrictions: It targets the closest visible MODEL, and splashes onto UNITS within 3" of the MODEL. While it is reasonable to use a combination of re-rolls and other buffs to hit that magical 12+ roll, it's targeting is still situational. Extremely nasty in the right matchups, but ultimately situational.
Inner Fire has 2 main advantages over most other GK psychic powers: it's targetable, and does not require line of sight. Additionally, the buffs to cast directly translate into more potential damage...each +1 to cast equals 2/3 chance of another mortal wound on the target.
I have used "psychic assassin" technique in almost every game I played before the world shut down, and it has been monstrously effective. Since we don't have snipers, it's a great way to take out characters. Since mortal wounds carry over, I've also had some success in using it against otherwise tough units like centurions and obviously against really tough targets like knights. I usually have 2 characters with the power, my Sanctic Shard libby and whichever other one I don't care about. Basic start is drop in with dynamic insertion, cast something else so you can use the +1 to cast bubble, then inner fire on 3D6 pick the highest. Omit strats as required for overkill avoidance.
Some things I've found that work well:
1. Don't hit the main bulk of your opponent's army unless you're also committing everything else. It works really well to gank a lightly-defended flank and kill the one thing that's otherwise going to give your 2 strike squads trouble in that corner.
2. Drop out of LOS. There's nothing better than appearing inside a magic box next to a shooting army.
3. Have multiple characters with it. It's still useful turn 5 after your brother captain has led the charge into your opponent's castle. And sometimes, the enemy will come to you.
I'm too lazy to run the math, but a 9" charge on 2D6 (with a CP re-roll) is about 50%, apply that to Inner fire and you're looking at about 6 mortal wounds before you add in all the various buffs. Make sure you throw enough buffs to get through any FNP, and if they cluster to protect a linchpin character well then you've always got Vortex.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/04/15 21:01:31
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
The main reason why vortex is so powerful is you get it for free. You just give it to one of your strike squads and the cost of doing so is almost 0. In certain situations, it can be game winning, and if the situation does not come up, nothing is lost. You don't have to go crazy with it, just getting the d3 wounds is enough. Situational abilities are bad when they have a significant cost, but great when you get them for free so, as long as you don't overcommit, vortex is an excellent tool to have. Just the threat of it forces your opponent to position themselves differently, which can open holes in their defenses that can be exploited by other elements of your army.
Inner fire, while really good, is even most situational than vortex and more costly. It can only be picked on a character, so you give up the opportunity to pick something else, and requires a CP to use, which is not trivial. In any case, it's a really good power and I would not play without it. With either relic, it averages 6 MW, which is a lot, specially because, as you mentioned, it ignores LOS and it is targeted. I've found it to be better on the librarian with the matrix (with inner fire + edict), since you want the relic close to your main force anyway, and, after your paladins are set, he can edict himself, if necessary, to inner fire units up to 23" away, very useful against isolated flanking units or flyers.
In any case, the "psychic assassin" technique is really bad in any competitive setting. You have to sacrifice a librarian and a relic just for it, which will be useless for at least a turn, and need a significant amount of CP. Furthermore, the strategy is absolutely obvious and the opponent can, in most cases, easily zone you out and protect their important characters. Even if you get to effectively deploy your librarian, you have to spend 3 CP for insertion, surge (preventing you from using it with the rest of your army) and adept, and you still can be agentsofvected, auspexed, forewarned, etc, and the power can still be denied, and then you still can fail to do enough damage to the intended target, having about a 17% chance to fail to kill a 5W target, even whith full buffs, and that's assuming no FNP or other defensive buffs. Also, which armies do have characters that you really get a big advantage for killing them (big enough to make losing a librarian, a relic and 3 CP worth it)? Space marines, which can easily zone you, auspex you or just survive the damage? Eldar, which can forewarned and denys, and have 5+++ against mortals? Would be decent against posessed lists, but still be very risky, and the posessed bomb is pretty much a free win anyway.
So, I don't fully understand how you disregard vortex for being situational (a valid point), yet you promote a tactic that is way more situational and costly and with a lesser payoff. I agree that inner fire is underapreciated, and I've have seen several lists that don't use it, which I'm sure is a big mistake, but it is a lot better when you use it just as an extra damage tool instead of as a gimmicky all in.
2020/04/16 08:05:18
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Seizeman wrote: So, I don't fully understand how you disregard vortex for being situational (a valid point), yet you promote a tactic that is way more situational and costly and with a lesser payoff. I agree that inner fire is underapreciated, and I've have seen several lists that don't use it, which I'm sure is a big mistake, but it is a lot better when you use it just as an extra damage tool instead of as a gimmicky all in
Because most of the time Vortex does D3 mortal wounds, short of applying a lot of buffs to it. Inner fire reliably does 6 and is more flexible with targeting. You don’t need to put it on a Librarian, an Apothecary will do. While the deepstrike psychic assassin strategy is situational, there is rarely a case where there’s nothing good to trade for a 76-110 pt model and some CP. It’s something to keep in your back pocket, like Vortex and the threat of it may cause your opponent to play differently. And it’s not in any way the linchpin of your army, just a convenient way to delete something that you may otherwise have trouble killing. It’s no more “all-in” than powering up a smash captain to kill something.
I think it’s a useful tool, and just wanted to share some of my lessons learned since I haven’t seen it discussed here yet. Usually I’ve been deepstriking my characters anyway to support my other deepstrikes and avoid eliminators before I can kill them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/16 08:10:20
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/04/16 22:06:26
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
So, I haven't gotten to play with or against Grey Knights much recently, however with all this shut in time I'm making it a priority to try and get my GK army painted, and I'm trying to figure out a decent build to run them with after starting to collect them several editions ago.
With that collection, I've been looking at list building, and while I can play my Guard or Chaos marines in my sleep, this army has so many special rules, interactions, and situationally triggered abilities (particularly with PA), that it's really hard to get my head around listbuilding comparatively. Without really wanting to add much to the collection (trying to get them painted without adding more to the heap ) or tear apart a bunch of them to re-equip (particularly the old metal termi's, boy how I wish they'd built the Falchion option into them back then ), I've been trying to come up with as competitive a list as is possible using this collection of mostly uncompetitive units, particularly using the larger Plastics Termi's as a Paladin centerpiece with the metals and their slightly reduced scale used as Troops terminators.
What I'm trying to work with is a couple Dreadknights built with sword/incinerator/psycannon, an LRC sporting a MM with all the FWGK bits and crew gubbins stuck to it, I've got 5 Plastic terminators that I've always tried to use as Paladins with a couple psycannons and a couple Daemonhammers (the other 3 armed with Halberds), 4 old metal Halberd Brother-Captain/Terminator Squad Leaders, 7 metal Halberd Terminators, 5 metal Sword Terminators, 4 metal Halberd equipped Psycannon Termi's (though these could just as easily be Psilencers given the older design), and 4 metal Sword equipped Incinerator Termi's, along with a Termi Librarian, a Draigo based kitbashed character that can work as pretty much anything (GM, Chaplain, Apothecary, Ancient, Voldus, another Librarian, etc), A single old metal BC with a Psycannon (no idea where he came from, could be relatively easily just made another squad leader), and a complete Draigo stuffed somewhere.
Here's kinda where I'm initially starting from for a 2k list, I'm sure this is a mess, particularly the psychic power options, if anyone can let me know where I can improve and best fill out that last 100pts it would be much appreciated!
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Edict Imperator, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2020/04/17 06:51:13
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Vaktathi wrote: Here's kinda where I'm initially starting from for a 2k list, I'm sure this is a mess, particularly the psychic power options, if anyone can let me know where I can improve and best fill out that last 100pts it would be much appreciated!
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Edict Imperator, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword
Assuming you want to just use the models you have:
-I'd max out the paladin squad, and have just 3 terminator squads for the battalion. As is, that would probably eat a chunk of your 100 pts. I would make the Paragon one of the hammer-wielders since he's going to get more out of it with WS 2+ than a regular paladin. In general, I stay away from hammers except on some characters for that reason.
-Drop the banner, find the extra points for a chaplain instead to get litanies. The banner of refining flame isn't really necessary with D2 smites and Inner fire; neither is the bonus attack cause of Shock Assault. On the other hand, there are a lot of good litanies and having access to them is useful.
-Unless you're really attached to the Land Raider, I'd drop it for a brother captain and either Draigo or Voldus (since your voldus proxy is now a chaplain, probably draigo). You'll get more out of the re-rolls, extra smite range, and general melee ability than the LRC guns. You have plenty of bolter shots with all the terminators and bolter drill. Without benefitting from Tides and being unable to deepstrike there's a decent chance the LRC attracts all the anti-tank guns and dies. Since its prospective cargo (terminators) can hide out of LOS and benefit from a lot of damage reduction they don't need the bunker.
In general, for characters I always try to have a brother captain, chaplain, librarian, and then either voldus or draigo. Your dreadknights might actually work because everything else is a terminator or paladin; but replacing them with infantry/other characters down the line will probably be better though. Additionally, if you want to keep the LRC you're going to want to drop a dreadknight to get other characters.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/04/17 15:44:55
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Yup, mostly all wrong units with the wrong weapons, openly acknowledged as such
Just trying to figure out how best to use the tools I've got and what's worked for others. Not intending on bringing this army to the LVO or anything, but more just looking for things like what psychic powers and warlord abilities work best with which units in this kind of setup, if I should adjust squad sizes, swap characters, drop the LRC entirely for more dudes/characters, etc. Looking at how much this army works off Stratagems and stacking special rules (that aren't all in the same place) is making it hard for me to nail these down. Any feedback like that would be much appreciated!
Vaktathi wrote: Here's kinda where I'm initially starting from for a 2k list, I'm sure this is a mess, particularly the psychic power options, if anyone can let me know where I can improve and best fill out that last 100pts it would be much appreciated!
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Edict Imperator, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 223pts]: Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword
Assuming you want to just use the models you have:
-I'd max out the paladin squad, and have just 3 terminator squads for the battalion. As is, that would probably eat a chunk of your 100 pts. I would make the Paragon one of the hammer-wielders since he's going to get more out of it with WS 2+ than a regular paladin. In general, I stay away from hammers except on some characters for that reason.
-Drop the banner, find the extra points for a chaplain instead to get litanies. The banner of refining flame isn't really necessary with D2 smites and Inner fire; neither is the bonus attack cause of Shock Assault. On the other hand, there are a lot of good litanies and having access to them is useful.
-Unless you're really attached to the Land Raider, I'd drop it for a brother captain and either Draigo or Voldus (since your voldus proxy is now a chaplain, probably draigo). You'll get more out of the re-rolls, extra smite range, and general melee ability than the LRC guns. You have plenty of bolter shots with all the terminators and bolter drill. Without benefitting from Tides and being unable to deepstrike there's a decent chance the LRC attracts all the anti-tank guns and dies. Since its prospective cargo (terminators) can hide out of LOS and benefit from a lot of damage reduction they don't need the bunker.
In general, for characters I always try to have a brother captain, chaplain, librarian, and then either voldus or draigo. Your dreadknights might actually work because everything else is a terminator or paladin; but replacing them with infantry/other characters down the line will probably be better though. Additionally, if you want to keep the LRC you're going to want to drop a dreadknight to get other characters.
Awesome, I'll work on that, dropping the LRC from the list isn't a problem, I can totally drop it for the characters and swap the banner for a Chaplain. Any ideas on the various psychic powers for each unit?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 15:48:56
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2020/04/17 16:30:06
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
For psychic powers, I’d stick with gate on the pallies, then sanctuary, hammerhand, and astral aim on the terminators. I’d repeat gate and sanctuary on the GMDKs. I’d give Warp Shaping/Empyrean Domination to Draigo and the librarian, edict imperator on the chaplain and Inner fire on the brother captain for starters, you can also swap out empyrean for another inner fire on Draigo or the Libby (or take it on a dreadknight) if you want to prioritize damage over extra CP. Who has what power is going to depend a lot on your play style and what role each character actually plays in your games, so you’ll probably tweak the Dominus power distribution a bit.
For me, the minimum redundant powers are Warp Shaping and Gate of Infinity regardless of list. I once took 3 warp shapings against a sniper heavy list cause I was paranoid.
First to the Fray is still the best warlord trait, and I think for your list it’s 98% the best option but Lore Master can sometimes be useful if you need someone to know an extra power.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/17 16:35:29
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/04/17 18:37:43
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2020/04/20 01:35:44
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Yeah, I wish they had waited to see if the vehicles were actually a problem before nerfing them, especially considering that Space Marines can already do similar things with Stealthy and other custom chapter tactics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know we haven’t had a ton of playtime, but has anyone had any issues with or see any potential issues with anti-psyker tech, particularly with the Psychic Awakening releases? From my experience it’s been a resounding “No”; I simply have too many casts and the ability to outrange denies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/23 07:43:47
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/04/23 21:59:34
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
_SeeD_ wrote: Grey Knights are the most tactical and strategic army in the game, yes or no?
In some ways, I'd say yes. It's not the army with most decision-making, since you have few units and not much mobility, but probably the army with the toughest decisions. Precisely because you don't have a lot of mobility or units, once you make a choice, specially an early one, it can dictate how the rest of the game plays, so you have to be be very careful, since a wrong decision can easily cost you the game. That means that assessing your opponents army and figuring an effective strategy is extremely important. Because of this, you have to be very familiar with what you army can do, since the stratagems, tides and psychic powers give you a ton of options, and you have to pretty much devise your whole gameplan before the game starts and, specially in a competitive environment, where you don't have time to waste, that requires fast thinking.
I think it is very advisable, before you go to a tournament, to have an aproximate strategy for every popular list so you can make quick decisions. It's a lot to remember, specially when you also have to remember which character has each power, and to use them in the correct order, etc., but that's more of a technical issue than a tactical one.
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
), I've been trying to come up with as competitive a list as is possible using this collection of mostly uncompetitive units, particularly using the larger Plastics Termi's as a Paladin centerpiece with the metals and their slightly reduced scale used as Troops terminators.
