Voss wrote: This is _just_ to sell more boxes, and it shows in the disregard for existing collections and the background of the army. The only plan here is to invalidate models to sell more models.
It isn't like a meta shift, where people have the agency to decide if they want to chase the 'optimal' loadout, or make do with what they have. This forces a change where people with perfectly reasonable (and even fluffy!) squads have to go buy more if they want to field legal squads. (Or chop and rebuild models that really aren't designed for chopping and rebuilding)
Really? They sell more boxes by ensuring you can't use weapon combinations the box doesn't support? Funny how the reasoning has flipped from the bad old days (aka before the Codex was revealed) when people said GW allowed weapon combinations the box didn't support to sell more boxes.
Gotta run with whatever reasoning is convenient for the moment.
Nope. I just bear no responsibility for someone trying to cast a hypothetical third party's reasoning as mine or somehow universal.
tl;dr: don't criticize arguments for not adhering to beliefs they never supported or shared.
If you're not having any effect with your shots you're likely making bad choices on the table. Also, you probably shouldn't build a PM unit with all the fixings anyway just due to the points cost. In fact, this is exactly what this type of change targets, you can get your toys on the table if you spend a premium in points but you can't take the most efficient load out at minimum unit sizes. How is this not a win for game balance if it continues as a trend?
no, if youre not having any effect with your shots in the situation that they presented its because only shooting D6 flamer shots at a horde will have significantly less effect than shooting 5d6.
If youre shooting a melta shot at a tank, its got a lot less chance to do anything than 5 shots.
Lets also ignore the fact that all the combis have different rangebands so you need to somehow position a single unit in range of multiple different one just to be able to use all your weapons.
Argive wrote: If somebody wanted to build a dedicated large blob CC themed DG army and equipped them with knives, bubonic axes and flails they could.. If they wanted a blobby shooty squad they could.
Now they HAVE to do what's in the box.. As you say 90% of other games do this. So why pay 90% more for that GW premium cheddar if it tastes like other cheddar?
Because GW cheddar will never taste like other cheddar. The quality difference between GW sculpts and the field is still vast and no other game in the genre has the same themes and depths of lore as 40k. You may not like the change but the ability to equip a single model with a specific weapon isn't the main draw of 40k.
"Like you know that squad there ? Well they don't all have the same weapon oh no no no.. they all come with different one in the box you see... Let me declare all of these 5 models at different targets and resolve and roll all of these separately one at a time and cause no effect rather than roll 5 dice at once at one target coz that's good game design"
If you're not having any effect with your shots you're likely making bad choices on the table. Also, you probably shouldn't build a PM unit with all the fixings anyway just due to the points cost. In fact, this is exactly what this type of change targets, you can get your toys on the table if you spend a premium in points but you can't take the most efficient load out at minimum unit sizes. How is this not a win for game balance if it continues as a trend?
It seems you just like the contrarian stance because it gets your kicks..
I will bite and say It certainly has been the main draw and appeal for a lot of people. YMMV of course. It has been for me.
Quality you say? You mean like the quality of 20 year old resin failcast kits? yeah. great... quality. I'm not going to argue the merits of GW sculpt ascetics vs completion. Of course modern GW plastics are top notch(and also ludacrisly top nothc££). But how much better than other offering is the overall product? YMMV..
If aesthetics are the only deciding factor and the game and army plays bland as feth then its not going to keep people interested IMO..
I think this is a problematic trend and needs to stop. For two reasons:
1. It means that armies with boxes/ units that can specialise will have an advantage over those that have a mish mash of options in their boxes.
2. The conclusion of this trend is that eventually all the options will be so limited every army of faction x will be exactly the same 100% of the time when you play them.
How many times are you going to want to play against the same list?
How many people will get bored if they face space marines 70% of the time in pick up games, and its the same list 90% every time?
I think its terrible design to limit options and punish people for taking time to be creative and convert / leave no opportunity to convert.
You are welcome to disagree.
alextroy wrote:Or they could just leave the datasheet the way it is since it is more limiting than the actual kit is, except for the lack of Combi-Weapon bits for every model (4 Combi-Weapon, with 2 of each type).
alextroy wrote: Or they could just leave the datasheet the way it is since it is more limiting than the actual kit is...
A literal falsehood.
"Any Space Marine Veteran may replace his special issue boltgun with a weapon from the Combi-Weapons list."
That's "more limiting than the actual kit" is it? The ability to take anything in any amount and combination is more limiting than the kit, which has 2 of each type?
You must be from an alternate reality.
Do you always criticize in bad faith or am I special? I literally mentioned Combi-Weapons in my response, but you had to cut that out to attempt to make a point.
Well to be fair, since that's the most important part, your point kinda reads like: "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"
Win in game balance lol, as if anyone was every quaking in their boots at the sight of PM. They are an expensive unit and a special weapon or 2 more for small squads does diddly doo for overall balance. Your regular PM is an expensive 21 point pillow fisted statblock. Though to shift yes, but for those points you get basically 0 offensive power unless you get them some (even more expensive) special weapons. Also riddle me this, if somehow taking these weapons for a 9-man squad is too overbearing why can I suddenly double up on them when I add just 1 extra dude?
If you're not having any effect with your shots you're likely making bad choices on the table. Also, you probably shouldn't build a PM unit with all the fixings anyway just due to the points cost. In fact, this is exactly what this type of change targets, you can get your toys on the table if you spend a premium in points but you can't take the most efficient load out at minimum unit sizes. How is this not a win for game balance if it continues as a trend?
no, if youre not having any effect with your shots in the situation that they presented its because only shooting D6 flamer shots at a horde will have significantly less effect than shooting 5d6. If youre shooting a melta shot at a tank, its got a lot less chance to do anything than 5 shots.
Lets also ignore the fact that all the combis have different rangebands so you need to somehow position a single unit in range of multiple different one just to be able to use all your weapons.
If we apply this rule to retributors/ havocs/ devastators/ other units that have specific one of each options, How often will you see them on the table? Why would you field a unit that has all different ranges and should target all different things (Just coz because thats what you get in the box) vs a unit taht has a clear purpose and that's good at its intended job instead?
NinthMusketeer wrote: People have models they paid for, assembled, painted and played with in a 100% legal, 100% supported manner and now those units are against the rules. No, they were not all optimizing the best possible loadout; most of them were not, because tournament meta is only a small fraction of the player base. To punish optimization like that the method is to change points anyways, such that the options are more balanced. Note that relatively few complain when their min-maxed unit's weapon options become poor due to a point change.
I do not see how someone can look at this and not understand why it is upsetting to people. I can assume it happens when they themselves are not affected, but even then it takes a bare minimum of thought to imagine the circumstance. The only way someone does not understand the legitimacy of the complaint is if they do not want to understand.
Put simply: if someone does not get it, that is their failing.
I understand why this is upsetting, but times change. Taking your logic to conclusion means that once something is introduced it can never be removed. That ends up with a system that is untenable in a matter of time.
As others have touched on, weapons/models being removed has nothing to do with this. All the options are still there. It is the allocation that has changed to make the equipment loadout illegal.
If a unit loses a weapon option, no one has a problem with that weapon being used counts-as for a similar weapon that is still available. Even tournaments are happy to allow this as long as it is made clear. Ditto for models. That cannot be done here, specifically because no single option was actually removed.
VladimirHerzog wrote: no, if youre not having any effect with your shots in the situation that they presented its because only shooting D6 flamer shots at a horde will have significantly less effect than shooting 5d6.
If youre shooting a melta shot at a tank, its got a lot less chance to do anything than 5 shots.
So bring another unit to bear on the same target and shoot them again or use the other tools in your kit to defeat the for. It isn't as if DG are lacking in anti-tank or anti-horde right now.
Also, don't throw every option onto a single PM or DST unit, that's a terrible plan.
yukishiro1 wrote: Well to be fair, since that's the most important part, your point kinda reads like: "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"
Precisely.
When you say the current rules are more restrictive than my example, something that is objectively false, what further arguments do I need to make?
If we apply this rule to retributors/ havocs/ devastators/ other units that have specific one of each options, How often will you see them on the table? Why would you field a unit that has all different ranges and should target all different things (Just coz because thats what you get in the box) vs a unit taht has a clear purpose and that's good at its intended job instead?
I would never take a unit with a random mix of weapon that want to shoot at different target. the most variety i can take is the Leader having a different weapon.
If this is how its going to be going forward. i shudder to think of my 10 man skitarii squad with : 1 arquebuse, 1 plasma, 1 arc rifle.
So bring another unit to bear on the same target and shoot them again or use the other tools in your kit to defeat the for. It isn't as if DG are lacking in anti-tank or anti-horde right now.
Also, don't throw every option onto a single PM or DST unit, that's a terrible plan.
yeah, i better make all my plague marine squad a mediocre unfocused thing instead of having clear jobs for each of them.
If you really think that running a squad with a mish mash of weapons is better than with focused weapons, i really don't know what to say except for :
40k isnt real life, maybe you should play the game to see why people are complaining.
Voss wrote: This is _just_ to sell more boxes, and it shows in the disregard for existing collections and the background of the army. The only plan here is to invalidate models to sell more models.
It isn't like a meta shift, where people have the agency to decide if they want to chase the 'optimal' loadout, or make do with what they have. This forces a change where people with perfectly reasonable (and even fluffy!) squads have to go buy more if they want to field legal squads. (Or chop and rebuild models that really aren't designed for chopping and rebuilding)
Really? They sell more boxes by ensuring you can't use weapon combinations the box doesn't support? Funny how the reasoning has flipped from the bad old days (aka before the Codex was revealed) when people said GW allowed weapon combinations the box didn't support to sell more boxes.
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.
Yes, this is trying to sell more boxes.
If you were an existing DG player with two 7 man squads (one with two blight launchers, one with 2 plasmaguns), that isn't legal anymore.
So GW's hope is that you'll go in and buy another box so you can field the now legal 10 man squads with 2 blight launchers (and various others bits), and etc. Its going beyond meta-chasing optimization (always optional) into 'But thou must...' territory.
The new rules _do_ support the old weapon combinations (and more besides) _IF_ you buy another box. Or two boxes (or more, depending on what you're existing collection is like).
If other people ever made the 'reasoning is flipped' argument, it wasn't me, so I don't care.
Actually, if you just don't take the extra Blight Launcher and Plasma, you've got a legal 5 man squad. Sure, you end up with extra models that you cannot legally use, but they didn't invalidate your squad like they did to people who min/max'd Blightlord Terminators. You just have new restrictions that end up preventing you from using those extra special weapons without adding more generic PM.
I have two custom Daemon Prince's which got hosed by this Codex.I added wings to a heavily customized DP of Nurgle (I replaced his legs with the bottom section of a plague drone), and that model cannot use its Plaguespitter anymore as it has wings. It sucks, but such is life.If I really want to use the Plaguespitter, I just won't pay for the wings and use it as a proxy foot variant.
Or, instead of just accepting it, since you're a paying customer, you can email them saying this is ridiculous. The amount of laying back and just accepting it is awful for a consumer to do.
I paid for that model and I used it for an entire edition. I got a bunch of use out of it as it was, and now I have to pivot. GW did not sell me a kit last week, and then turn around this week and say "Nope, you cannot use that." I'm sure I'll be attacked as some sort of apologist, but I don't really care that much. Small incremental changes like this are rough, but it is better than waiting for something like the end times to happen which invalidates an entire game because they let things get past the point of no return.
That's literally the worst attitude you could have since it affects the future in ways you're not thinking about, whether it's your own army or the army of someone else.
And just as I don't see the whole picture from my vantage point, neither does anyone on any side. The future is not determined, and we are all arm chair QBing the decision GW makes from the outside. I am fine with them changing rules to ensure that what comes in a kit is the way a unit can be equipped. It actually makes it easier in the long run to plan for fewer diverse options when preparing to face an army. Granted, this should be applied holistically across the board (i.e. Loyalists, Harlequins, etc).
And for the record, I think this attitude is vastly worse than mine:
NinthMusketeer wrote: People have models they paid for, assembled, painted and played with in a 100% legal, 100% supported manner and now those units are against the rules. No, they were not all optimizing the best possible loadout; most of them were not, because tournament meta is only a small fraction of the player base. To punish optimization like that the method is to change points anyways, such that the options are more balanced. Note that relatively few complain when their min-maxed unit's weapon options become poor due to a point change.
I do not see how someone can look at this and not understand why it is upsetting to people. I can assume it happens when they themselves are not affected, but even then it takes a bare minimum of thought to imagine the circumstance. The only way someone does not understand the legitimacy of the complaint is if they do not want to understand.
Put simply: if someone does not get it, that is their failing.
I understand why this is upsetting, but times change. Taking your logic to conclusion means that once something is introduced it can never be removed. That ends up with a system that is untenable in a matter of time.
As others have touched on, weapons/models being removed has nothing to do with this. All the options are still there. It is the allocation that has changed to make the equipment loadout illegal.
If a unit loses a weapon option, no one has a problem with that weapon being used counts-as for a similar weapon that is still available. Even tournaments are happy to allow this as long as it is made clear. Ditto for models. That cannot be done here, specifically because no single option was actually removed.
Right, and the allocation being removed sucks for those who have to change models or buy additional ones to get compliant, but I am all for it, provided it gets applied across the board to ALL armies. Perhaps GW decided to go in this direction after the SM codex? We've seen clear cases of paradigm shifts in AoS from one grouping of codices to another. If this is a one off, then the anger is going to be much easier to understand.
Right, and the allocation being removed sucks for those who have to change models or buy additional ones to get compliant, but I am all for it, provided it gets applied across the board to ALL armies. Perhaps GW decided to go in this direction after the SM codex? We've seen clear cases of paradigm shifts in AoS from one grouping of codices to another. If this is a one off, then the anger is going to be much easier to understand.
It doesn't matter either way. Necrons are largely unaffected by this sort of thing (their baseline units have traditionally been 'this gun only' or 'option A or option B'
So they either:
a) purposefully didn't target loyalist marines with this 'paradigm shift' (so the 'across the board to all armies' is already out the door)
b) only specifically targeted death guard (which is a crappy move)
and/or
c) pulled a 'paradigm shift' on the _third_ codex of the new edition (the various supplements follow the parent book).
The latter is just _weird_ especially given that it was supposed to come out closer to the first two books (meaning it was written and finalized much closer to the other two books). Close enough that the various writers could have had a fething conversation about it during the planning sessions. I'm willing to accept paradigm shifts two years later when staff roles have been moved around or new blood has come in. Less than six months into edition? Shove off.
Given that the next codex is Dark Eldar, this isn't a good thing, given that they've been given a lovely case of /invalid models/ before.
VladimirHerzog wrote: yeah, i better make all my plague marine squad a mediocre unfocused thing instead of having clear jobs for each of them.
Da fuq... I literally said don't take one of everything... As in keep them lean and mean and only take weapons that make them better at whatever role you need them to fill.
That's not what a slippery slope argument is. And until a week ago, no one would have imagined the changes to the Death Guard this thread is about.
Why isn't it? Something bad happens ergo something bad will continue to happen. An anecdote doesn't predict future results.
We are in fact sitting here talking about "no model = no rules" when the DG codex literally has a "Death Guard Chaos Lord" for which no model exists and no kit exists for the weapons available to that model.
As far as I see the issues are as follows:
-- It sucks for people who lovingly built models they can't use
-- It is perfectly fine to demand from GW to reverse this decision
-- GW is fully within its right to change unit datasheets as needed to balance the game; whether some or all of this is truly a balance issue is undetermined
That's not what a slippery slope argument is. And until a week ago, no one would have imagined the changes to the Death Guard this thread is about.
Why isn't it? Something bad happens ergo something bad will continue to happen. An anecdote doesn't predict future results.
We are in fact sitting here talking about "no model = no rules" when the DG codex literally has a "Death Guard Chaos Lord" for which no model exists and no kit exists for the weapons available to that model.
As far as I see the issues are as follows:
-- It sucks for people who lovingly built models they can't use
-- It is perfectly fine to demand from GW to reverse this decision
-- GW is fully within its right to change unit datasheets as needed to balance the game; whether some or all of this is truly a balance issue is undetermined
The reason we got the Death Guard Lord and Death Guard Possessed was because people fought to get them appropriate stats, instead of laying back and accepting whatever GW throws at them like you're choosing to do since it doesn't affect you.
Voss wrote: This is _just_ to sell more boxes, and it shows in the disregard for existing collections and the background of the army. The only plan here is to invalidate models to sell more models.
It isn't like a meta shift, where people have the agency to decide if they want to chase the 'optimal' loadout, or make do with what they have. This forces a change where people with perfectly reasonable (and even fluffy!) squads have to go buy more if they want to field legal squads. (Or chop and rebuild models that really aren't designed for chopping and rebuilding)
Really? They sell more boxes by ensuring you can't use weapon combinations the box doesn't support? Funny how the reasoning has flipped from the bad old days (aka before the Codex was revealed) when people said GW allowed weapon combinations the box didn't support to sell more boxes.
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.
Yes, this is trying to sell more boxes.
If you were an existing DG player with two 7 man squads (one with two blight launchers, one with 2 plasmaguns), that isn't legal anymore.
So GW's hope is that you'll go in and buy another box so you can field the now legal 10 man squads with 2 blight launchers (and various others bits), and etc. Its going beyond meta-chasing optimization (always optional) into 'But thou must...' territory.
The new rules _do_ support the old weapon combinations (and more besides) _IF_ you buy another box. Or two boxes (or more, depending on what you're existing collection is like).
If other people ever made the 'reasoning is flipped' argument, it wasn't me, so I don't care.
Actually, if you just don't take the extra Blight Launcher and Plasma, you've got a legal 5 man squad. Sure, you end up with extra models that you cannot legally use, but they didn't invalidate your squad like they did to people who min/max'd Blightlord Terminators. You just have new restrictions that end up preventing you from using those extra special weapons without adding more generic PM.
I have two custom Daemon Prince's which got hosed by this Codex.I added wings to a heavily customized DP of Nurgle (I replaced his legs with the bottom section of a plague drone), and that model cannot use its Plaguespitter anymore as it has wings. It sucks, but such is life.If I really want to use the Plaguespitter, I just won't pay for the wings and use it as a proxy foot variant.
Or, instead of just accepting it, since you're a paying customer, you can email them saying this is ridiculous. The amount of laying back and just accepting it is awful for a consumer to do.
I paid for that model and I used it for an entire edition. I got a bunch of use out of it as it was, and now I have to pivot. GW did not sell me a kit last week, and then turn around this week and say "Nope, you cannot use that." I'm sure I'll be attacked as some sort of apologist, but I don't really care that much. Small incremental changes like this are rough, but it is better than waiting for something like the end times to happen which invalidates an entire game because they let things get past the point of no return.
That's literally the worst attitude you could have since it affects the future in ways you're not thinking about, whether it's your own army or the army of someone else.
And just as I don't see the whole picture from my vantage point, neither does anyone on any side. The future is not determined, and we are all arm chair QBing the decision GW makes from the outside. I am fine with them changing rules to ensure that what comes in a kit is the way a unit can be equipped. It actually makes it easier in the long run to plan for fewer diverse options when preparing to face an army. Granted, this should be applied holistically across the board (i.e. Loyalists, Harlequins, etc).
And for the record, I think this attitude is vastly worse than mine:
Brutus_Apex wrote: I don't respect the viewpoint of, oh well too bad, carry on.
No, you don't get to have the opinion of "that sucks for you because it doesn't affect me".
You should all be supporting those who are losing out, not being actively against them.
Because it may be me left out in the cold today, but if you don't stand up for what is right now, it will be you tomorrow.
That is just a nonsensical opinion, to which you are entitled. Good luck and God speed!
low IQ take right there.
Folks are so emotional they are resulting to personal attacks (and on the internet too!?!?!?). Irrational thoughts lead to irrational reactions.
Well look at the garbage attitude you're presenting. TONS of unit loadouts for Plague Marines numbered 5-9 have been GUTTED and the new one doesn't make a lot of sense. For example, anything but two Plasma Guns and a Blight Launcher you can't do. Meanwhile you sit there gloating "too bad". Not to mention people with Nurgle Terminators lost a gak ton of options as well. You really think people would give you sympathy to your army when it eventually happens? Absolutely not, nor are people going to treat you with the respect you somehow think you're entitled to.
AKA your crocodile tears are just that, so don't cry about people being mean on the internet.
Castozor wrote: Oh look Daedalus defending Chaos nerfs again, don't you have some posts defending Eradicators to make somewhere else?
It's like you don't actually read things and you're just a robot that says the same thing over and over. Good job!
My reading is just fine, your post history speaks for itself bud. All I see you do is defending a change that DID NOT apply for regular marines but that you are perfectly fine with defending for DG.
The reason we got the Death Guard Lord and Death Guard Possessed was because people fought to get them appropriate stats, instead of laying back and accepting whatever GW throws at them like you're choosing to do since it doesn't affect you.
Ah, well, I guess we better revoke those Death Guard units, because we don't want to just accept what GW is throwing at us. I mean the Lord has one less wound and attack than the SM Captain. Are we just going to sit here and accept that?
But you'll sit here and try to use that as a cudgel and then spin around and argue the other side of GW's - to paraphrase - malice for PM & BL. The logic is astounding.
Castozor wrote: Oh look Daedalus defending Chaos nerfs again, don't you have some posts defending Eradicators to make somewhere else?
It's like you don't actually read things and you're just a robot that says the same thing over and over. Good job!
My reading is just fine, your post history speaks for itself bud. All I see you do is defending a change that DID NOT apply for regular marines but that you are perfectly fine with defending for DG.
Oh. I meant reading comprehension. Sorry about that.
Every few months I like to go through my ignore list and remove any names for which I cannot immediately & clearly recall why they are there. Most of the time I am glad I did.
The reason we got the Death Guard Lord and Death Guard Possessed was because people fought to get them appropriate stats, instead of laying back and accepting whatever GW throws at them like you're choosing to do since it doesn't affect you.
Ah, well, I guess we better revoke those Death Guard units, because we don't want to just accept what GW is throwing at us. I mean the Lord has one less wound and attack than the SM Captain. Are we just going to sit here and accept that?
But you'll sit here and try to use that as a cudgel and then spin around and argue the other side of GW's - to paraphrase - malice for PM & BL. The logic is astounding.
Castozor wrote: Oh look Daedalus defending Chaos nerfs again, don't you have some posts defending Eradicators to make somewhere else?
It's like you don't actually read things and you're just a robot that says the same thing over and over. Good job!
My reading is just fine, your post history speaks for itself bud. All I see you do is defending a change that DID NOT apply for regular marines but that you are perfectly fine with defending for DG.
Oh. I meant reading comprehension. Sorry about that.
CSM players shouldn't accept the crummy stats they're given, actually. So you're kinda proving my point instead of being being white knight you want to be.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well look at the garbage attitude you're presenting. TONS of unit loadouts for Plague Marines numbered 5-9 have been GUTTED and the new one doesn't make a lot of sense. For example, anything but two Plasma Guns and a Blight Launcher you can't do. Meanwhile you sit there gloating "too bad". Not to mention people with Nurgle Terminators lost a gak ton of options as well. You really think people would give you sympathy to your army when it eventually happens? Absolutely not, nor are people going to treat you with the respect you somehow think you're entitled to.
AKA your crocodile tears are just that, so don't cry about people being mean on the internet.
Seriously? How am I gloating? And that is an honest question. Where did I say DG deserved this and Loyalists didn't?
I play DG. I have over 4.5k points worth of HEAVILY converted DG. I've invested a lot of money into them, but I am sorry if I don't throw a tantrum because changes are occurring. I'm going to adapt and move along. If GW decides to reverse course on this, then awesome.
Then do something about it rather than complaining. Have all your friends email GW and if enuff players do it....ya might change the world.
Or vote with your wallets and don't buy the books/models. If you don't like what a codex offers, why the feth would you buy it? In a world where gak is leaked before its released, how in good conscience can you continue to buy the codex if the changes are sooooo egregious? Sounds dumb. When GW said to just use Squats as guard, ya know what I did, I didn't buy.
Damn straight if the chaos codex has stuff in it I don't like, it'll save me money, same for Sororities, Admech, Marines, Deldar.
But then you'll complain that you can't use the stuff you do like in it, and ya know the best part of 40k....no one is holding a bolter to your head forcing you to use the stuff you dont.
yukishiro1 wrote: Well to be fair, since that's the most important part, your point kinda reads like: "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"
Precisely.
When you say the current rules are more restrictive than my example, something that is objectively false, what further arguments do I need to make?
You need to be correct. Outside of the Combi-weapons, the current rules are significantly more restrictive than your example. Even inside of Combi-weapons, two copies of the kit will support 4 of the same combi-weapon and 8 total combi-weapons.
You are free to disagree with me, but not by truncating my sentence to make it look like I didn't acknowledge the inability of the kit to provide full unit coverage of the same combi-weapon. That is discussing in bad faith.
Right, and the allocation being removed sucks for those who have to change models or buy additional ones to get compliant, but I am all for it, provided it gets applied across the board to ALL armies. Perhaps GW decided to go in this direction after the SM codex? We've seen clear cases of paradigm shifts in AoS from one grouping of codices to another. If this is a one off, then the anger is going to be much easier to understand.
It doesn't matter either way. Necrons are largely unaffected by this sort of thing (their baseline units have traditionally been 'this gun only' or 'option A or option B'
So they either:
a) purposefully didn't target loyalist marines with this 'paradigm shift' (so the 'across the board to all armies' is already out the door)
b) only specifically targeted death guard (which is a crappy move)
and/or
c) pulled a 'paradigm shift' on the _third_ codex of the new edition (the various supplements follow the parent book).
The latter is just _weird_ especially given that it was supposed to come out closer to the first two books (meaning it was written and finalized much closer to the other two books). Close enough that the various writers could have had a fething conversation about it during the planning sessions. I'm willing to accept paradigm shifts two years later when staff roles have been moved around or new blood has come in. Less than six months into edition? Shove off.
Given that the next codex is Dark Eldar, this isn't a good thing, given that they've been given a lovely case of /invalid models/ before.
I think it is this:
d) applied the 'new paradigm' to the Primaris units (allowing upgrades for upgrade kits and intentional crossover bits) while leaving the Firstborn Marine units with the upgrade options from the past due to their modular nature... and a healthy fear of the consumers who have 20 year old First Born Marine armies
The unit options in Codex Adepta Sororitas very much follow the paradigm of what's in the kit, upgrade kits, and designed cross-over bits.
d) applied the 'new paradigm' to the Primaris units (allowing upgrades for upgrade kits and intentional crossover bits) while leaving the Firstborn Marine units with the upgrade options from the past due to their modular nature... and a healthy fear of the consumers who have 20 year old First Born Marine armies
How so? Primaris units are more like necrons- they either lack for options, or their rifles can be built of 10 of any variant. (or for the other squads eliminators & inceptors get all of either weapon, incursors/infiltrators get all their guns, etc)
That definitely isn't the same paradigm.
_That_ would have been what people have already pointed out- weird restrictions on sternguard, terminators and devastators based on exactly what's in the box, and you suddenly can't take things if the squad size is 'wrong'
The unit options in Codex Adepta Sororitas very much follow the paradigm of what's in the kit, upgrade kits, and designed cross-over bits.
'Designed cross-over bits' aren't involved with DG. Everything plague marines can equip comes from the plague marine box, everything the terminators can equip comes from the DG terminator box. The terminators especially aren't compatible with other kits, especially 'normal' chaos terminators- they don't use those CC weapons, and their ranged options are now more restricted.
Sisters have the same loadout as always, as far as I know. They didn't lose things for their units, and the battle sister box has _extra_ weapons in it (to accommodate dominions).
Their weirdest thing they got was the canoness in the limited box that didn't match the codex restrictions. Sisters are pretty much the perfect opposite of the situation here.
Then do something about it rather than complaining. Have all your friends email GW and if enuff players do it....ya might change the world.
Or vote with your wallets and don't buy the books/models. If you don't like what a codex offers, why the feth would you buy it? In a world where gak is leaked before its released, how in good conscience can you continue to buy the codex if the changes are sooooo egregious? Sounds dumb. When GW said to just use Squats as guard, ya know what I did, I didn't buy.
Damn straight if the chaos codex has stuff in it I don't like, it'll save me money, same for Sororities, Admech, Marines, Deldar.
But then you'll complain that you can't use the stuff you do like in it, and ya know the best part of 40k....no one is holding a bolter to your head forcing you to use the stuff you dont.
I'm voting with my wallet AND sending emails, as many others have done here. The least you could do is support the cause and stop this from happening to future codices.
It's just not a problem in a friendly environment.
Except that's based on a verbal agreement. If half the people in a group of 8 don't agree....what happens?
Or instead on relying us, the players and consumers, to fix these problems, we make it known to GW they're causing a problem. Ya know, instead of saying "not my problem" and not doing anything. Every post defending this move is ludicrous, period, and I won't stand for it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well look at the garbage attitude you're presenting. TONS of unit loadouts for Plague Marines numbered 5-9 have been GUTTED and the new one doesn't make a lot of sense. For example, anything but two Plasma Guns and a Blight Launcher you can't do. Meanwhile you sit there gloating "too bad". Not to mention people with Nurgle Terminators lost a gak ton of options as well. You really think people would give you sympathy to your army when it eventually happens? Absolutely not, nor are people going to treat you with the respect you somehow think you're entitled to.
AKA your crocodile tears are just that, so don't cry about people being mean on the internet.
Seriously? How am I gloating? And that is an honest question. Where did I say DG deserved this and Loyalists didn't?
I play DG. I have over 4.5k points worth of HEAVILY converted DG. I've invested a lot of money into them, but I am sorry if I don't throw a tantrum because changes are occurring. I'm going to adapt and move along. If GW decides to reverse course on this, then awesome.
So you suffer from battered woman syndrome, sorry to hear buddy. Not all of thus are just going to mutely accept terrible design because c'est la vie, these new rules are terrible and there is no reason we shouldn't be able to discuss them here and on other places. If it annoys you that much just stop reading.
Never said it couldn’t be discussed. Very classy to make light of domestic abuse. Keep taking swings at me because you’re having a tantrum.
yeah, and people were asking for the exact opposite of what GW did. We wanted the kits to have all the weapons options, not the options to be stripped out.
Yea, man. I get it. You should be able to do that if you're crazy enough to tackle that project and GW might yet change its mind. But I do think it might be unfair to those without the same means to accomplish those conversions.
The horse left the barn a while ago with the mono-pose stuff. It seems to me that DG got the shaft in that regard, because a lot of other new kits haven't had that same treatment. GW may have had to push stylized out kits fast for the release of 8th.
I do not look forward to CSM Terminators and chain axes ( the lack of monopose may save them - we'll see soon enough I suppose ).
Where is it written it has to be fair in terms of capability ? I know plenty of people so rich they just toss money at any issue, even this game. I can't hope to keep up with all the variety and having like 3 of any unit in every configuration expertly painted for them. For them, this is no issue at all. If we all have the wargear options, we at least have the choice to scrounge up the bits, do the hobby work for our units and make them what we want. Equality of opportunity not equality of outcomes. I have been behind the 8 ball because I don't put limitless funds into the game but I have put in time and patience to search for those options I wanted, when I can.
Defending these dumb choices is really daft to me. They make the squad feel lame, it feels bad and it's overly penalizing for no reason other than someone feeling we are unable to find, get, craft or otherwise understand how to make the units we want. Disrespecting time, effort and desire. Like you still end up with two specials in 5-9 man squads, but it can't be the same one because, someone would feel bad I found another plasma and they didn't ? So why can't these same people get two boxes and and then run one with 2 blight launchers and one with 2 plasma at 7 man ? Is that really over the top amazing ?
It's a dumb idea they had, and people are right to be annoyed, me included.
I'm not posting to remove your right to be annoyed. I just oppose the histrionics and chicken little assertions paraded as fact.
This isn't the first some valid loadouts ( or models ) got axed and if they change them back it won't be the first time they do that, either.
In regards to fairness - the Blightlords kit has four regular combis. There is a fairly small percentage of folks who would buy jewler's saw and then have the knowledge to cast the bits from the sprue to get something that fits the model appropriately. In the present situation If a poor hobbyist buys Blightlords and a rich one buys them and has them painted - they're both still operating under the same guidelines where previously the rich hobbyist could afford the tools and knowledge it takes to make those conversions. I'm not asserting this to be GW's motive. It is just my own thought.
Would the game be massively up-ended by PGPMs? I don't know. I don't have the book to process everything else it has.
I can see that 5 PMs with 3 PG creates a unit that is stupidly great. With Ferric Blight they'll be Intercessors that move and double tap ( bolters ) and have AP4 PGs. That unit would do 4 wounds to Primaris for 135 and Intercessors would do 1 back for 100 points. If Primaris had the same loadout they'd do just about the same damage as with bolters, so....yea. That isn't even considering 1/10 of the book.
So here's my prediction. This book is so fething cool and fun that literally no one is going to give a gak in a month.
I don't have 3 plasmas though. I have 2 in 7 man squads. This screws me and others up. As for implying you need expert skill to make combi plasmas you do not. I have done many for space wolf terminators using bolters and plasma pistols, not at all as expert difficult as it's being implied only the greenest of nooblet wouldn't be able to do so and make it look pretty good. As is, the rich gamer is still going to have the 2 plasmas in 7 man squads. I use the old plague models so metal and their champions didn't come with plasma guns. I know at least a couple other DG players in the same boat, I got plenty of new models without feeling I had to upgrade my old plague marines as well and spend extra hundreds and lots of time. Sorry if some think the joy of some new to the block guy overrides my own desire to keep what has been legal and not at all OP unit in the game. I highly doubt they give a crap of how op the set up is anyways.
So here is my prediction, you do not know me and I will give a gak long after this thread falls to dust. I will double give a gak if they make my scourges do the same thing and have a comically bad one of each of their own special weapons in a 5 man squad which would end up beyond terrible for a unit that is already not good and hasn't to my knowledge ever been an " OMG OP !!!! " Unit.
we have people argue about balance and that making it different is pay2win or cannot be done for the target group of players
the others are salty because the change is unexpected as they thought Nu-GW won't do that with a non-Marine faction
so stuff that was "nomal" for years is now impossible to do for the players and pay2win as well as the change of it was unexpected
did you guys all played a different 40k the past 20 years?
Unit loadouts being illegal with a new Codex because weapon options changed according to the box layout is nothing new and happens all the time (looking at my Space Wolve Scouts)
Same as people being angry about it and than buying the new Codex and some more models to change the units according to the rules
would be really nice if all those who are now arguing how bad that thing is stop buying GW products to show them that they have done something wrong
but this won't happen and GW won't change
would be really nice if all those who are now arguing how bad that thing is stop buying GW products to show them that they have done something wrong
but this won't happen and GW won't change
Which is sad, since the entire point of GW is TO GET YOU TO BUY MORE MINIS, if your load out is no longer "legal"(whatever that means) & the only way for you to "fix the problem" is buying more minis....GW(according to them)seems to have done their job. As long as players throw $€£¥ @ them, it ain't gonna change. If all of the sudden, there are codexs sitting on the shelves and nobody is buying, maybe they'll get the hint.
As much as everyone would like to think they have an incentive to change based on emails, GW only understands $€£¥ and anyone who believes otherwise is deluding themselves. Cuz if you send emails, but keep buying the product that you're dissatisfied with, you are just setting yourself up for failure.
kodos wrote: this topic is getting really interesting now
we have people argue about balance and that making it different is pay2win or cannot be done for the target group of players
the others are salty because the change is unexpected as they thought Nu-GW won't do that with a non-Marine faction
so stuff that was "nomal" for years is now impossible to do for the players and pay2win as well as the change of it was unexpected
did you guys all played a different 40k the past 20 years?
Unit loadouts being illegal with a new Codex because weapon options changed according to the box layout is nothing new and happens all the time (looking at my Space Wolve Scouts)
Same as people being angry about it and than buying the new Codex and some more models to change the units according to the rules
would be really nice if all those who are now arguing how bad that thing is stop buying GW products to show them that they have done something wrong
but this won't happen and GW won't change
Well as is, I have written them and will call them to make formal complaint with voice. I won't be buying this codex unless this is seen to and that goes double for dark eldar if that is even more crazy dumb.
As is this feels like a really stupid time to try this when so few even are able to get into the game. Making them decide to wait and not buy just seems like a bad idea. Gives everyone all the time to just focus on the fact they are screwing the players, a touch more than usual.
As is the only reason I got any GW this last year was to support my FLGS which I know has been hit from all this vrius poo and lack of events.
Don't get me started on the wolf scouts though, did they change their load out options again this last supplement ?
not worth to buy in 9th at all for now as there are better games to play at home during lockdown and you also support your FLGS by buying those instead (bought the the Victrix Saxons just to support them and for a future use in SAGA or Kings of War)
kodos wrote: not worth to buy in 9th at all for now as there are better games to play at home during lockdown and you also support your FLGS by buying those instead (bought the the Victrix Saxons just to support them and for a future use in SAGA or Kings of War)
Well I don't have a lot of games I'm keeping up with atm. Like I'm getting some attack wing stuff coming out later this month that has solo play. As well a couple things to shore up what I had set up for Armada.
Won't lie the game front for table top felt dry for a bit because of all this, had to turn to digital venues which just doesn't feel as good.
As side note any other games out there worth the time to look over ? Off topic, but maybe a slight detour should be ok for a question.
Mantic Deadzone, rules are free now as well as the supplement that includes the Solo Play rules, Starter Box is currently (again) out of stock but should be back soon (can use 40k minis though)
for comic fans, Walking Dead All out War or Hellboy, can be played Solo or co-op
if you want to play with family, X-Wing (core box only), Dreadball, BlitzBowl, are great as well
for historical/Napoleonic Travel Battle from Perry Miniature
or OnePage rules as substitute for 40k, yet might not be the bedt to play with family
“There will be no creativity, no enjoyment of the process of converting. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always - do not forget this, Winston - always there will be the intoxication of buying GW products, constantly increasing in price. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of new editions and new codexes to invalidate existing collections, the sensation of fleecing a customer who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine GW's boot stamping on someone's lovingly converted miniatures - forever.”
So I just checked. This does affect me because while I built my Blightlords with combi-bolters and only a single combi-plasma, I've fielded two squads of 7 Plague Marines, one with 2 (3) plasma and one with two blight launchers, and had a third squad half assembled with two blight launchers and two flails. None of which are legal now in those specific combinations.
You know what? I still don't mind that it's changed even though I now need to scrounge up a few more plague Marines or swap around weapons. Which I'll probably do the latter for variety and I feel plasma and blight launchers have some synergy (I was already taking plasma on the champion anyway).
Is it a gakky move? Sure it is. But not the end of the world. In fact it's pretty typical GW behavior since we are all reasonably certain that they design books in isolation with little or no communication between the writers to ensure consistent rules.
I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.
I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators.
I mean ... can we at least wait until the book actually comes out ...
This isn't the first some valid loadouts ( or models ) got axed and if they change them back it won't be the first time they do that, either.
In regards to fairness - the Blightlords kit has four regular combis. There is a fairly small percentage of folks who would buy jewler's saw and then have the knowledge to cast the bits from the sprue to get something that fits the model appropriately. In the present situation If a poor hobbyist buys Blightlords and a rich one buys them and has them painted - they're both still operating under the same guidelines where previously the rich hobbyist could afford the tools and knowledge it takes to make those conversions. I'm not asserting this to be GW's motive. It is just my own thought.
I do think you're massively underestimating the conversion market here. I've seen tons of combi-plas (both well made and also terrible) locally. I'd agree that it's not the first time we've been through something like this. I think what is rankling people (or at least why I'm bothered) is the fact that this is probably the first time GW has really addressed the "not enough options in the box" problem, and the answer is a resounding "we'll just change the rules because that's easier". Which does not bode well as a precedent. Additionally, the very last book DG got (War of the Spider) had a set up SPECIFICALLY FOR plasma terminators. You know, the book that was "designed with 9th in mind"
So to some, it kind of reads like "Convert all those plasmas for the Ferryman Plasma bomb now, because we know they'll not be legal in 9th and you'll have to re-buy them". It's fairly lame. Particularly since this looks to be another one of those "rules" where it really only effects Chaos ...
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.
Ridiculous hot take aside, how does the fact a completely different unit in your Codex may be too good justify messing around with the PM options? People aren't even complaining that it's a nerf, necessarily, just that it's completely stupid on many different levels.
Grimtuff wrote: You need Titan level shooting remove Morty? Good. He’s a fething daemon primarch...
Make it cost like a Titan then.
Do it, he should not be in 40k to begin with. But if you want daemonically souped up primarchs in your game, they’d best act like daemonically souped up primarchs and not some jamoke that can get blown off the table in one turn by the average IG platoon due to how cranked up damage output is in your game.
Duskweaver wrote: “There will be no creativity, no enjoyment of the process of converting. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always - do not forget this, Winston - always there will be the intoxication of buying GW products, constantly increasing in price. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of new editions and new codexes to invalidate existing collections, the sensation of fleecing a customer who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine GW's boot stamping on someone's lovingly converted miniatures - forever.”
You and others being mildly inconvenienced is not like 1984.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.
damn dude, who pissed in your cheerios?
DG still don't have crazy offensive power, theyre tough as nails, which is normal. They SHOULD be tougher than custodes, theyre juiced up on chaos magic from the god of "my followers cant be killed" and the DG was already the most resilient legion before they fell to chaos (huffing chemicals that would kill most other astartes just for fun).
You want your bananas to be good? Attacking long time players of DG is super childlike. And before anyone goes "but you did the same with marine players", no, i didnt. I never attacked the players, only said that the codex was too strong.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.
I mean...this is the wrong way to go about this.
Let's step back and think about things before jumping to conclusions ( apparently this is called white knighting ).
For Morty to get all his bells and whistles he needs a full DG army. No nurglings. No warptime. No primarch bros. At only 12" of movement it won't be hard to get in his way and he won't be getting buried deep into the enemy army as easily as before. He's not titanic and can't just walk out.
He's going to present a problem for a lot of lists and I can't assess all the details, but there's more to the picture than anyone has been capable of assessing properly at this point.
He's going to present a problem for a lot of lists and I can't assess all the details, but there's more to the picture than anyone has been capable of assessing properly at this point.
It's especially silly considering it wasn't that long ago that no one took Morty because he'd get blown off the table turn 1. So many people are acting like he's been out here, single handedly winning GTs for ages, meanwhile, most people who own one, are likely to be removing a fine layer of dust off of theirs.
kirotheavenger wrote: Is 12" slow now? Because in my mind that's still double the average.
The problem becomes avoiding a suitable tarpit as well as fighting something worth his points. You don't want to spend 490 to have him sit on an objective and shoot a single shot ( now 12" ) each turn. If he can't leap what is in the way he might struggle to get the army into scoring position. I imagine the missions with 6 objectives will make it hard for him to make an impact if he winds up fighting junk.
But these are just casual thoughts and the picture might change when people really start to get into the book. He might be awesome just by kicking out the contagion early on. I haven't looked much at the spells yet so I don't know if much changed there, too.
Boy oh boy what a funny coinkidink that you've got armies like DW out the door where Vets have options that aren't even in the freaking kit, but the second you get to a non-loyalist marine faction it's "EVERYTHINK BUT ZE KIT BUILD IST VERBOTEN!"
Cannot wait for my Drukhari codex now....yeah, looking forward to those "Updated" Lelith rules where she still can't kill a basic chainsword marine captain in combat, and those really great awesome Scourge rules...
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a shredder
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a blaster
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a dark lance
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a haywire blaster
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a splinter cannon
Anyone want to bet that Havocs get the same treatment but Devs still get to take 4x of the same gun :^)
RaptorusRex wrote: You and others being mildly inconvenienced is not like 1984.
Surely nobody could get upset at a light-hearted reference to a famous work of fiction. I mean, I could understand people being offended if I compared it to the Holocaust, or the Holodomor, or the Armenian Genocide or something like that, even if they recognised I wasn't being entirely serious. But nobody in their right mind would get all defensive and huffy at a reference to a novel. Right?
Clearly, I misunderestimated how humourless and uptight GW white knights can be.
“He gazed up at the enormous Space Marine. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark helmet. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Games Workshop.”
(Also, I'm not actually inconvenienced at all by this, as I don't play DG. I was going to start a DG army. But I'm not now. GW has lost some small amount of revenue from me. But that's all.)
Is it a gakky move? Sure it is. But not the end of the world. In fact it's pretty typical GW behavior since we are all reasonably certain that they design books in isolation with little or no communication between the writers to ensure consistent rules.
Haha, isn't this the greatest summary of why GW continues to thrive ever: "Yeah, it sucks, but only in the way that GW typically sucks. So I'm fine with it!"
Somehow they have managed to set expectations so low that they can continue to deliver on them, no matter how bad their behavior. It's a nifty trick.
Is it a gakky move? Sure it is. But not the end of the world. In fact it's pretty typical GW behavior since we are all reasonably certain that they design books in isolation with little or no communication between the writers to ensure consistent rules.
Haha, isn't this the greatest summary of why GW continues to thrive ever: "Yeah, it sucks, but only in the way that GW typically sucks. So I'm fine with it!"
Somehow they have managed to set expectations so low that they can continue to deliver on them, no matter how bad their behavior. It's a nifty trick.
And that people don't bother to fight back. It's a pathetic attitude from GW defenders, really.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Boy oh boy what a funny coinkidink that you've got armies like DW out the door where Vets have options that aren't even in the freaking kit, but the second you get to a non-loyalist marine faction it's "EVERYTHINK BUT ZE KIT BUILD IST VERBOTEN!"
Cannot wait for my Drukhari codex now....yeah, looking forward to those "Updated" Lelith rules where she still can't kill a basic chainsword marine captain in combat, and those really great awesome Scourge rules...
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a shredder
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a blaster
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a dark lance
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a haywire blaster
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a splinter cannon
Anyone want to bet that Havocs get the same treatment but Devs still get to take 4x of the same gun :^)
RaptorusRex wrote: You and others being mildly inconvenienced is not like 1984.
Surely nobody could get upset at a light-hearted reference to a famous work of fiction. I mean, I could understand people being offended if I compared it to the Holocaust, or the Holodomor, or the Armenian Genocide or something like that, even if they recognised I wasn't being entirely serious. But nobody in their right mind would get all defensive and huffy at a reference to a novel. Right?
Clearly, I misunderestimated how humourless and uptight GW white knights can be.
“He gazed up at the enormous Space Marine. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark helmet. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Games Workshop.”
(Also, I'm not actually inconvenienced at all by this, as I don't play DG. I was going to start a DG army. But I'm not now. GW has lost some small amount of revenue from me. But that's all.)
"Oh dear! How sad! Never mind!"
I am not a "white knight", as you put it. The fact that you chose that parlance to describe my position says a lot about you, not me. If you took a minute to look at my post history, you'd see that I am not using GW miniatures for my Guard army's infantry, but rather Wargames Atlantic Einherjar. I have deliberately chosen to take my business to another company, because GW does not provide the miniatures for Squats. My armies of choice - Space Wolves, Ultramarines, and Imperial Guard - are 2/3rds loyalist Marines, yes. But do I think that stuff like Eradicator spam is alright, balance-wise? No, of course not. I disdain such things and avoid them in my army building.
The issue I took with your post was that you compared what I assumed was, for you, a minor problem to a soul-crushingly totalitarian regime. The fact that you could make the leap, again, shows the problem.
RaptorusRex wrote: You and others being mildly inconvenienced is not like 1984.
Surely nobody could get upset at a light-hearted reference to a famous work of fiction. I mean, I could understand people being offended if I compared it to the Holocaust, or the Holodomor, or the Armenian Genocide or something like that, even if they recognised I wasn't being entirely serious. But nobody in their right mind would get all defensive and huffy at a reference to a novel. Right?
Clearly, I misunderestimated how humourless and uptight GW white knights can be.
“He gazed up at the enormous Space Marine. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark helmet. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Games Workshop.”
(Also, I'm not actually inconvenienced at all by this, as I don't play DG. I was going to start a DG army. But I'm not now. GW has lost some small amount of revenue from me. But that's all.)
"Oh dear! How sad! Never mind!"
I am not a "white knight", as you put it. The fact that you chose that parlance to describe my position says a lot about you, not me. If you took a minute to look at my post history, you'd see that I am not using GW miniatures for my Guard army's infantry, but rather Wargames Atlantic Einherjar. I have deliberately chosen to take my business to another company, because GW does not provide the miniatures for Squats. My armies of choice - Space Wolves, Ultramarines, and Imperial Guard - are 2/3rds loyalist Marines, yes. But do I think that stuff like Eradicator spam is alright, balance-wise? No, of course not. I disdain such things and avoid them in my army building.
The issue I took with your post was that you compared what I assumed was, for you, a minor problem to a soul-crushingly totalitarian regime. The fact that you could make the leap, again, shows the problem.
Considering GW frequently depicts soul-crushingly totalitarian regimes, it's a good analogy.
In regards to fairness - the Blightlords kit has four regular combis. There is a fairly small percentage of folks who would buy jewler's saw and then have the knowledge to cast the bits from the sprue to get something that fits the model appropriately. In the present situation If a poor hobbyist buys Blightlords and a rich one buys them and has them painted - they're both still operating under the same guidelines where previously the rich hobbyist could afford the tools and knowledge it takes to make those conversions. I'm not asserting this to be GW's motive. It is just my own thought.
Would the game be massively up-ended by PGPMs? I don't know. I don't have the book to process everything else it has.
I can see that 5 PMs with 3 PG creates a unit that is stupidly great. With Ferric Blight they'll be Intercessors that move and double tap ( bolters ) and have AP4 PGs. That unit would do 4 wounds to Primaris for 135 and Intercessors would do 1 back for 100 points. If Primaris had the same loadout they'd do just about the same damage as with bolters, so....yea. That isn't even considering 1/10 of the book.
So here's my prediction. This book is so fething cool and fun that literally no one is going to give a gak in a month.
In the words of Jim Mora, You don't know. You think you know, but you don't know. You are speculating. And I've done the same, I'm not trying to come at you. But what do real players, really do? I can only speak for myself and what I've done. I certainly would not define myself as "rich", but I am established to the point where a box of guys is not a major purchase. But that does not mean I just throw money (or more importantly, time) away on something I will never use. I'll also point out that Hell Blasters, Scions, and other plasma heavy units have not been espcially dominant on the battlefield to this point.
I missed 4E-7E when "life happened" and came back for 8E when I had more time for hobbies. My old Berzerkers looked pathetic compared to the new stuff, so I made this Primaris sized squad. I chose the Hellblaster kit instead of Intercessors with an eye towards using their plasma guns for something else. A few years later I pick up some DG Termies since I've already got the bits for them.
Spoiler:
Obviously I hadn't finished the Termies yet and could still legally do so. I wanted a general purpose, high firepower reserve unit, but I don't really need an "on call" anti infantry unit for my DG army. And I probably won't use them now so those are a waste.
Then I look at my existing squads of Plague Marines like this:
Spoiler:
I can rejigger them and have a bunch of TAC squads. I could give some of the guys with axes a mace instead of a knife and do less rejiggering! But all of these models are from 2017 onward. The melee weapons and Blight Launchers did not exist prior to 2017. I had some PMs in the 3E era but they are long gone. Its not 10 or 20 year old models, they are 4 year old models at best. So I hesitate.
It's kind of like an SAT question. If you have one squad with three plasma guns, another squad with one plasma gun and two blight launchers, and another squad with two plasma guns and one blight launcher, which one is better? On "Planet Bowling Ball" it doesn't matter because the guns themselves did not change and everything is always in range of everything. But IRL I prefer a more focused approach in actual play.
Then I ask myself "Will they keep doing this?" and look at my other stuff:
Spoiler:
And its like a bomb went off. So I hesitate. The time and money I put into these are now wasted. And I don't just accept it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.
Speaking only for myself, I'm very unhappy with this decision and what it implies about the future of this hobby. I build/paint/play with what I like, and use the favored numbers even if it is a handicap. I already have a Biologus Putrifier and Plague Surgeon and don't have Mortarion. Maybe you are right and the hobby is better off without me. Maybe I'm a huge outlier. Maybe I'm just a WAAC crybaby to be dismissed. Only you can decide.
So realistically, the units that are going to get totally screwed by this are...
1) HQs. I don't think it's a stretch to say that most HQs have some sort of baked-in stupidity in their plastic kit. Usually they're plodding along on foot, with expensive melee weaponry they never get to make good use of, and often they've got some kind of overly pricy again super short ranged gun that goes along just great with their super slow mobility.
Space marines, obviously, get 15 of each HQ model and get to keep mobility options even when they don't have models for it. Harlequins, GSC, Sisters, and other recent factions are already under the yoke of this garbage and you've got 'fun' stuff like the GSC Primus who has 2 melee weapons 1 of which is always worse in every situation against every target, and who costs as much as a basic marine captain while having the same statline as a guard commander who costs half as much.
Big losers here are going to be Chaos Marines, Drukhari, and Tau IMO. Their kits don't have the options to make the useful builds, so they'll be stuck with their commanders having mismatched crap from now on.
2) Special/Heavy Weapon Squads
If the idiotic convention is carried forward, basically these types of units, Retributors, Havocs, Scourges, you know everything except the Loyalist Marine version of it or anything else GW opts to grandfather in will become a stupid non-choice.
Sure, maybe you can run 1 Haywire Scourge, 1 Blaster Scourge, 1 Dark Lance Scourge, and 1 Heat Lance scourge, but that's going to be pretty much always shittier and less efficient than just using a fething ravager for the job that comes with 3 dark lances on it and even if the scourges were comparably efficient you'd take the ravager anyway because it makes you feel less like an idiot resolving its attacks in 30 seconds instead of 5 minutes.
Realistically, most units in the game won't mind that much. Some might even get needed nerfs out of it, cough cough harlequins please just kill the stupid 5x melta 5 man squad already and limit them to the 2 that come in the box.
But ultimately, this change is asinine. Anyone defending it has Stockholm Syndrome at this point, the fact that an adult was forced to put that Plague Marine Option list to paper in that format and publish it is a bizarre and laughable form of bureaucracy.
Honestly, I think the convention is that monopose models only get options contained within the kit. This is what has caught Plague Marines
More modular models get options specifically designed to be compatible with those kits. This is why Marines don't appear to have been caught.
But keep in mind Primaris units can't build anything not in the kit or on an upgrade sprue.
I think extrapolating Plague Marines to absolutely every box is too far, it's likely limited to their monopose-ness.
I wonder if this will affect the Cadian Command Squad box? It has one of everything, meaning you are basically forced to run an inferior squad.
I wonder if they will do this with other factions. Custodes Guardian squad: Only one model in this unit is allowed to take a storm shield, sort of nonsense.
kirotheavenger wrote: Honestly, I think the convention is that monopose models only get options contained within the kit. This is what has caught Plague Marines
More modular models get options specifically designed to be compatible with those kits. This is why Marines don't appear to have been caught.
But keep in mind Primaris units can't build anything not in the kit or on an upgrade sprue.
I think extrapolating Plague Marines to absolutely every box is too far, it's likely limited to their monopose-ness.
If only there was some organization that could have come out with a statement explaining why this happened and what it means for the future, before it happened, so there would be no angry surprises...
If only there was some organization that could have come out with a statement explaining why this happened and what it means for the future, before it happened, so there would be no angry surprises...
you again assume that there are people at GW who have known that or are aware of what they are doing
for making a statement explaining what has happend, you need to know what is going on in the first place
and the time were people at GW played their own game is long gone
kirotheavenger wrote: Honestly, I think the convention is that monopose models only get options contained within the kit. This is what has caught Plague Marines
More modular models get options specifically designed to be compatible with those kits. This is why Marines don't appear to have been caught.
But keep in mind Primaris units can't build anything not in the kit or on an upgrade sprue.
I think extrapolating Plague Marines to absolutely every box is too far, it's likely limited to their monopose-ness.
Just the fact that this was done to one unit is enough for it to be asinine.
Like, seriously, this unit is THE STARTER BOX unit from the previous edition - can you imagine being a new player that got started, picked Death Guard and picked up your codex and saw that fething word vomit?
Like I'm currently getting into some beardy-ass beardy historical games atm, and that paragraph is a fething nightmare to parse.
It's bad for the health of literally everybody. New players, existing players, everybody.
The simplest way to do this, if GW really really wanted to just limit players to the kit, and wanted to remove the option to kitbash and the advantage for being someone who ebays or kitbashes or whatever, would be this:
-Write a point cost and rule for every weapon option
-Provide a photograph of the bit that is the Official Weapon What Goes With These Here Rules
-State that the unit Plague Marines in Matched Play may only be fielded using the contents of a box of Plague Marines assembled using the instruction booklet, and in Narrative and Open Play anything goes.
And its like a bomb went off. So I hesitate. The time and money I put into these are now wasted. And I don't just accept it.
I never, ever said anyone should just accept it.
The thing that gets me are the people lubing them selves up and saying, "Look how slippery this slope is. See all these things that haven't happened yet? Anyone who didn't lube up is a hypocrite!".
It is just the most asinine approach to an issue. Had I made this post I would have phrased it as such, "I'm really disappointed in this change and I think we should collectively contact GW to let them know how we feel". I've made such posts before.
Instead we get people screeching for pages and pages, because it's more fun to be a loudmouthed fearmonger than it is to actually discuss something rationally. I'm pretty convinced most people don't actually read what is written ( though I should bear burden of some of that issue since I don't always temper myself ). If you're not in lock-step with their position you're a white knight or whatever. Apparently I'm pro-marine when I regularly send GW emails like this:
I already thought we hit this point with the recent HQ choices. Both the Primaris Cpt and Lt have pretty hilarious options. The Canoness is up there as well.
LunarSol wrote: I already thought we hit this point with the recent HQ choices. Both the Primaris Cpt and Lt have pretty hilarious options. The Canoness is up there as well.
but people thought those are just leftovers from old-GW and it will never happen to models made by Nu-GW
"If you don't have the chainsword and bolt pistol, you can have a power sword and bolter."
"If you have the powersword and bolter, you can have a rod of command."
"If you have the chainsword and boltpistol, you can replace the chainsword with <stabby bits> and the bolt pistol with <pistoly bits>"
And the Limited Edition model had a plasma pistol molded onto the cape no less a rod of command, and a power sword, also inconveniently molded.
They faq'd the Canoness to replace the mandatory bolter for the Rod of Command with a Plasma Pistol.
Which also means her datasheet now has a weapon profile (the bolter) she can't use, as that was the only way to take a bolter originally
And its like a bomb went off. So I hesitate. The time and money I put into these are now wasted. And I don't just accept it.
I never, ever said anyone should just accept it.
The thing that gets me are the people lubing them selves up and saying, "Look how slippery this slope is. See all these things that haven't happened yet? Anyone who didn't lube up is a hypocrite!".
It is just the most asinine approach to an issue. Had I made this post I would have phrased it as such, "I'm really disappointed in this change and I think we should collectively contact GW to let them know how we feel". I've made such posts before.
Instead we get people screeching for pages and pages, because it's more fun to be a loudmouthed fearmonger than it is to actually discuss something rationally. I'm pretty convinced most people don't actually read what is written ( though I should bear burden of some of that issue since I don't always temper myself ). If you're not in lock-step with their position you're a white knight or whatever. Apparently I'm pro-marine when I regularly send GW emails like this:
Spoiler:
or this :
Spoiler:
I think you've got more faith in GW than I do. If you complain about a Codex they've already released, or that they've already written and are starting to tease bits of before releasing, they're not going to FAQ out something they did that was stupid. GW's response to customer complaints is either "wait five years until the next Codex, hope they've forgotten about it by then", or occasionally "burn the whole game down and write a new one that superficially addresses the problem." They'll FAQ things that annoy tournament players slightly faster, but they know that a large portion of the playerbase judges the quality of the game based on tournament winrates and is completely happy with horrific internal balance, periodic squatting of models based purely on which designers don't like each other, the slow strangulation of conversions, and endless bloat piled atop more bloat as long as they can point to a spreadsheet and say "see? every Codex's win rate is between 40% and 60% in our tournament database! the game is great!"
I think you've got more faith in GW than I do. If you complain about a Codex they've already released, or that they've already written and are starting to tease bits of before releasing, they're not going to FAQ out something they did that was stupid. GW's response to customer complaints is either "wait five years until the next Codex, hope they've forgotten about it by then", or occasionally "burn the whole game down and write a new one that superficially addresses the problem." They'll FAQ things that annoy tournament players slightly faster, but they know that a large portion of the playerbase judges the quality of the game based on tournament winrates and is completely happy with horrific internal balance, periodic squatting of models based purely on which designers don't like each other, the slow strangulation of conversions, and endless bloat piled atop more bloat as long as they can point to a spreadsheet and say "see? every Codex's win rate is between 40% and 60% in our tournament database! the game is great!"
Most things I don't expect would change. At least not immediately, but it won't stop me from bugging them. I would say they've made demonstrably more positive changes in the past couple years than through the decade prior to 8th.
The original Necrons book was phoned in so badly. But now they feel like a great army with a lot of viable lists and viable Reanimation. Did it suck to have to wait? Yes. Did they do a great job? Arguably, yes. Given how great Necrons and DG seem to be shaping up they make marines feel pretty boring. Death Guard literally spreading disease? feth yes.
The codex cycle is way faster now too ( which is a double edged sword ).
The reason I play Thousand Sons/Tzeentch is literally because I identify with Tzeentch. Change is life.
The problem with this is what happens if you wait 3-4 years for a codex in hope that the next one will be fixed and good, but it isn't? Wait another 3-4 years, seems insane.
The thing that gets me are the people lubing them selves up and saying, "Look how slippery this slope is. See all these things that haven't happened yet? Anyone who didn't lube up is a hypocrite!".
It is just the most asinine approach to an issue.
I dunno man, if I had to pick a really obvious logical fallacy to characterize stuff here it's be you making a straw man, not other people making a slippery slope. Saying "this is bad, and if it means it is going to happen to the rest of the game, that'll be bad in the exact same way this is bad" isn't a slippery slope. The fallacy part of the slippery slope argument comes from taking some small and on its own insignificant thing and saying it will lead to all sorts of non-inevitable evils that are different in kind from the original thing you are calling out. Example: "If you let 16 year olds vote, the next thing we know 7 year olds will be allowed to drive tanks while high on heroin!"
Here people aren't saying "are you going to like this when it happens to marines/scourges/havocs!" because they think it's worse when it happens to those than when it happens to DG, they're making an appeal to people to think how they would feel if their units were screwed and made illegal in exactly the same manner DG players' units have been. That's not a slippery slope, and your characterizing it that way is you building up a straw man to beat down.
If you really feel this is as bad as you claim later in the post, this is one of those cases where the wiser thing to do would just have been to say "yeah, I agree, this sucks. I understand why you're upset and we should focus the blame where it belongs, with GW" rather than trying a "but achkstually..."
kirotheavenger wrote: Honestly, I think the convention is that monopose models only get options contained within the kit. This is what has caught Plague Marines
More modular models get options specifically designed to be compatible with those kits. This is why Marines don't appear to have been caught.
But keep in mind Primaris units can't build anything not in the kit or on an upgrade sprue.
I think extrapolating Plague Marines to absolutely every box is too far, it's likely limited to their monopose-ness.
I completely agree. The Plague Marine and Blightlord Terminator kits suffer from being monopose kits with no upgrade sprues or designed interchangeability. Other recent armies don't appear to suffer this issue, but have been done the same way:
Adpeta Sororitas: Every single unit option in the Codex is either from a monopose kit/model or is from designed interchangeability. That crazy list of options for the Canoness is 100% the build instructions for the kit or the monopose model from the Army box. The only things not in the Battle Sister box the the squads (Battle Sister, Celestians, Dominons) can take are the Power Maul and Multi-Melta from the Retributor box (and all Retributor options not in the box are in the Battle Sister box). The Repentia Superior has the option to not take a free Bolt Pistol because the Army Box model doesn't have one.
Necrons: All the options are in the box or a monopose model.
Space Marines:
Primaris Marines are 100% out of the box, from monopose models, or are options from the various Primaris upgrade sprues (for Intercessor Sergeants).
Firstborn Marines are a few generations of multi-pose kits with interchangeable parts. Bits from most kits will fit on most other kits with minimal to no effort. So options remain expansive since anyone who's purchased a large number of kits can easily build whatever they want from their bits box.
Is this fair? Not particularly. But it is rather consistent. Hold onto your hats if your codex is coming soon. You should prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Daedalus81 wrote: ...The reason I play Thousand Sons/Tzeentch is literally because I identify with Tzeentch. Change is life.
Some of the time. Other times change is death. GW's been promising 40k rules for my Cybernetica bots for so long they've now gone through two edition changes and the book's likely never coming given the main studio's dismissive attitude to FW minis. Corsairs? No model, no rules, dead, we don't care how much work you put into converting the army that we published rules for over eight years and three editions. Lerneans? Nope, loyalists get Cataphractii, Chaos can go screw themselves. Sekhmet? Nope, Rubricae have forgotten how to use any weapons not in their kits, no matter how trivial the conversion.
Argive wrote: But the unit specific boxes like retributor only have 2 options of each weapon.
Who cares what other boxes there are.. eventually the battle sister box will change/ go away.
Once that happens when will you ever see retibutors on the field as an alternative to exorcists for AT ?
Even the Death Guard units allow you to make maximum-sized squads with the unit options found in of TWO boxes of the unit. I'm not worried about Retributors at all.
Argive wrote: So you will be taking 4 multi metlas every ten sisters and the rest with heavy bolters?
Considering GW planned for the Battle Sister Box to cover Battle Sister Squads, Celestian Squads, Dominion Squads, and the bolter-sister of Retributor Squads... not very likely.
An in that case, the rules would be for every 5 models in the squad you can take 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Heavy Flamers, 2 Multi-Meltas, and one with a Sister Superior load out (no way to assemble that model without a melee weapon). Still not worried about this happening. If it does, I'll adjust.
Here people aren't saying "are you going to like this when it happens to marines/scourges/havocs!" because they think it's worse when it happens to those than when it happens to DG, they're making an appeal to people to think how they would feel if their units were screwed and made illegal in exactly the same manner DG players' units have been. That's not a slippery slope, and your characterizing it that way is you building up a straw man to beat down.
Some do. I don't really comment on decent posts ( I am no angel ). Accusing people of being battered wives? Referencing a totalitarian regime? Inferences that this is "yet another cash grab"? And still ignore units that don't exist in the very same book that breaks the logic.
So, yes, this is not great. People should voice their opinion. At the same time GW shouldn't be beholden to a mob and should be able to make *appropriate* changes. These may not be appropriate.
I highly doubt this would ever happen again so I don't see the need to worry, because if it does the community would *really* lose its mind. So if it does happen ( to an infantry kit, because this happens fairly often ) I'll make a free raffle for people in this thread and buy the winner an infantry box of their choice.
However, as a result, no one is allowed to complain that kits don't come with all the options, because clearly everyone is really good at converting their models and it is super important to them. ( That's a bit tongue in cheek )
If you really feel this is as bad as you claim later in the post, this is one of those cases where the wiser thing to do would just have been to say "yeah, I agree, this sucks. I understand why you're upset and we should focus the blame where it belongs, with GW" rather than trying a "but achkstually..."
Sure, fair. And I know I react to certain posters, because we have "history" and people are pretty loose about coming after me, but I'm not blaming. I get that I, too, take hard stances that people don't like. I should tone down my posts and interact more thoughtfully, which is projection, because I see others not acting thoughtfully and I get all bitchy.
So, I apologize for grief I have caused. I'll work on that. I might not always be successful.
Space Marines:
Primaris Marines are 100% out of the box, from monopose models, or are options from the various Primaris upgrade sprues (for Intercessor Sergeants).
So I assume the Eradicator kit will come with a MM?
Argive wrote: So you will be taking 4 multi metlas every ten sisters and the rest with heavy bolters?
Considering GW planned for the Battle Sister Box to cover Battle Sister Squads, Celestian Squads, Dominion Squads, and the bolter-sister of Retributor Squads... not very likely.
An in that case, the rules would be for every 5 models in the squad you can take 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Heavy Flamers, 2 Multi-Meltas, and one with a Sister Superior load out (no way to assemble that model without a melee weapon). Still not worried about this happening. If it does, I'll adjust.
I have no doubt you will adjust. You seem like a reasonable person.
And I'm sure everyone else will adjust too.. But why should you have to? It just sucks.. The idea sucks..
The whole point I'm really trying to make is, that for your sake, and everyone else sake that could potentially have to endure this, is that I really hope the adjustment will not turn out to be: Not using the unit coz it crap now because of what comes in the box...
Here people aren't saying "are you going to like this when it happens to marines/scourges/havocs!" because they think it's worse when it happens to those than when it happens to DG, they're making an appeal to people to think how they would feel if their units were screwed and made illegal in exactly the same manner DG players' units have been. That's not a slippery slope, and your characterizing it that way is you building up a straw man to beat down.
Some do. I don't really comment on decent posts ( I am no angel ). Accusing people of being battered wives? Referencing a totalitarian regime? Inferences that this is "yet another cash grab"? And still ignore units that don't exist in the very same book that breaks the logic.
So, yes, this is not great. People should voice their opinion. At the same time GW shouldn't be beholden to a mob and should be able to make *appropriate* changes. These may not be appropriate.
I highly doubt this would ever happen again so I don't see the need to worry, because if it does the community would *really* lose its mind. So if it does happen ( to an infantry kit, because this happens fairly often ) I'll make a free raffle for people in this thread and buy the winner an infantry box of their choice.
However, as a result, no one is allowed to complain that kits don't come with all the options, because clearly everyone is really good at converting their models and it is super important to them. ( That's a bit tongue in cheek )
If you really feel this is as bad as you claim later in the post, this is one of those cases where the wiser thing to do would just have been to say "yeah, I agree, this sucks. I understand why you're upset and we should focus the blame where it belongs, with GW" rather than trying a "but achkstually..."
Sure, fair. And I know I react to certain posters, because we have "history" and people are pretty loose about coming after me, but I'm not blaming. I get that I, too, take hard stances that people don't like. I should tone down my posts and interact more thoughtfully, which is projection, because I see others not acting thoughtfully and I get all bitchy.
So, I apologize for grief I have caused. I'll work on that. I might not always be successful.
Hey...no fair. You're not supposed to react that sensibly! What gives? Now I can't be annoyed at you any more.
Argive wrote: But the unit specific boxes like retributor only have 2 options of each weapon.
Who cares what other boxes there are.. eventually the battle sister box will change/ go away.
Once that happens when will you ever see retibutors on the field as an alternative to exorcists for AT ?
Even the Death Guard units allow you to make maximum-sized squads with the unit options found in of TWO boxes of the unit. I'm not worried about Retributors at all.
With that logic they had no reason to not let you take say 2 plasmas at 7 man or 2 blight launchers at 7 man, as really that is perfectly easy to do with 2 boxes yeah ? No, instead it somehow makes more sense to buy 2 boxes, have wasted minis and take a belcher, 2 plasmas and 2 blight launchers in 10 man ? That is a completely dumb idea. It feels like it's only there to hose old set ups for no real touch on balance or ease of purchases.
Deathwatch teams can have tons of every weapon under the sun in their squads, combis, heavy bolters , missile launchers, 4 frag cannons, more items than you can shake a stick at and most of them don't come in the kit, or it comes with like 1 copy of it. No, I don't want DW to loose their options but really that is a way more wild set up of random things than a fiendish 2 of the same special weapon in less than 10 men for DG or multiple of the same combi in BL units when making them is relatively easy or bit trading isn't super hard.
If DG end up an outlier, it'll just feel extra punitive for no real reason. If they aren't singled out and other units will suffer even worse. ( Scourges, I already fear for their treatment ). This is silly, and should be given some heavy levels of static. Options are a good thing. I'd really like if we all keep them.
Voss wrote: This is _just_ to sell more boxes, and it shows in the disregard for existing collections and the background of the army. The only plan here is to invalidate models to sell more models.
It isn't like a meta shift, where people have the agency to decide if they want to chase the 'optimal' loadout, or make do with what they have. This forces a change where people with perfectly reasonable (and even fluffy!) squads have to go buy more if they want to field legal squads. (Or chop and rebuild models that really aren't designed for chopping and rebuilding)
Really? They sell more boxes by ensuring you can't use weapon combinations the box doesn't support? Funny how the reasoning has flipped from the bad old days (aka before the Codex was revealed) when people said GW allowed weapon combinations the box didn't support to sell more boxes.
The trick is to alternate which is which every edition so that people have to buy to adjust their units every edition, moving more kits.
And I'm sure everyone else will adjust too.. But why should you have to? It just sucks.. The idea sucks..
Well, not EVERYBODY. I think the Necron boxes all come with every option (I could be missing something so let me know if I am), but there are Marine boxes that don't come with everything and they somehow avoided this..... So ... again ... not EVERYBODY ...
Having just seen this thread, I feel like such "option" restrictions are purely extreme legalese and profit-seeking rather than about anything resembling game balance or sustainability.
When it comes to modern 40k feeling bloated, this is one of the big reasons why. 2nd ed was bloated through its game-in-a-game Psychic Phase and several extreme Wargear Cards, yet every faction functionally used the same weapons, to the point that you had Orks with Autocannons and Eldar with Heavy Plasmaguns.
3rd-through-5th edition 40k abstracted the assorted "Power" weapons into "Power Weapons", but gradually introduced racial variants of the assorted options. Thus, Orks got Sluggas & Shootas instead of Bolt Pistols & Bolters. Eldar got Bright Lances instead of Lascannons, etc. However, this was still a mostly streamlined game.
It was around the beginning of 5th that you had the 'first' signs that there would be some bloat, with more 'variant' power weapons, artifacts, etc. being introduced. My personal favorite oddity from that edition was how Dreadnoughts had a "Missile Launcher" (one shot), while Terminators had a "Cyclone Missile Launcher" (2 shots), and Typhoon Speeders had a Typhoon Missile Launcher (2 shots). The Taurox Prime in 6th would also get the Taurox Missile Launcher. Note, these three different weapons had the exact same profile as one another, because "double-shot Missile Launcher" was apparently too generic...
6th added tons of additional Special Rules, re-divided Power Weapons into Swords/Axes/Lances/Maces, and added Challenges.
And of course, you have the many different variants of Bolters added with Primarines, just so you can geek out on the difference between a Bolter, Bolt Rifle, Bolt Carbine, Heavy Bolt Rifle...I imagine you could recreate the Monty Python Cheese skit, only with Bolter Variants.
stratigo wrote: Maybe quit the thread while you are ahead? Or the forum even.
There ya go, champ! You and I are gonna be beeeest buddies!
Well telling people to suck it up will grant you that attitude all while trying to appease Senpai GW who won't notice you for doing it. If you really went after them for Eradicators like you claimed you should have no problem going after them for this decision. Pretty damn simple.
stratigo wrote: Maybe quit the thread while you are ahead? Or the forum even.
There ya go, champ! You and I are gonna be beeeest buddies!
Well telling people to suck it up will grant you that attitude all while trying to appease Senpai GW who won't notice you for doing it. If you really went after them for Eradicators like you claimed you should have no problem going after them for this decision. Pretty damn simple.
I'll grant my choice of words probably wasn't as good as it should have been, but I didn't say suck it up. I said think about it, put it in context, and don't start just extending to other various theories, conspiracies, or ridiculous-isms.
kirotheavenger wrote: Honestly, I think the convention is that monopose models only get options contained within the kit. This is what has caught Plague Marines
More modular models get options specifically designed to be compatible with those kits. This is why Marines don't appear to have been caught.
But keep in mind Primaris units can't build anything not in the kit or on an upgrade sprue.
I think extrapolating Plague Marines to absolutely every box is too far, it's likely limited to their monopose-ness.
I completely agree. The Plague Marine and Blightlord Terminator kits suffer from being monopose kits with no upgrade sprues or designed interchangeability. Other recent armies don't appear to suffer this issue, but have been done the same way:
Adpeta Sororitas: Every single unit option in the Codex is either from a monopose kit/model or is from designed interchangeability. That crazy list of options for the Canoness is 100% the build instructions for the kit or the monopose model from the Army box. The only things not in the Battle Sister box the the squads (Battle Sister, Celestians, Dominons) can take are the Power Maul and Multi-Melta from the Retributor box (and all Retributor options not in the box are in the Battle Sister box). The Repentia Superior has the option to not take a free Bolt Pistol because the Army Box model doesn't have one.
Necrons: All the options are in the box or a monopose model.
Space Marines:
Primaris Marines are 100% out of the box, from monopose models, or are options from the various Primaris upgrade sprues (for Intercessor Sergeants).
Firstborn Marines are a few generations of multi-pose kits with interchangeable parts. Bits from most kits will fit on most other kits with minimal to no effort. So options remain expansive since anyone who's purchased a large number of kits can easily build whatever they want from their bits box.
Is this fair? Not particularly. But it is rather consistent. Hold onto your hats if your codex is coming soon. You should prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Monopose has nothing to do with the restrictions on Blightlords. Each body in the kit has a corresponding combi-weapon arm holding half of a combi-weapon, you then add the half you want, with the kit containing 4 bolter halves and 1 each of plasma, melta, and flamer halves. Equipping more combi-weapons only requires acquiring more plasma, melta, or flamer bits, either by buying more boxes of Blightlords or buying/trading for more, which is exactly what must be done to equip Devastators or Retributors with four identical weapons, or Havocs etc. If that is acceptable for those units then it should be for Blightlords.
I also find it odd that you can't build the basic loadout of 5 combi-bolters + 5 swords with the kit, which contains only 4 bolter bits and 3 swords. The rules also allow 5 axes despite the kit only containing 3 axes. This doesn't make sense if the rules are supposed to be based on the contents of the kit.
stratigo wrote: Maybe quit the thread while you are ahead? Or the forum even.
There ya go, champ! You and I are gonna be beeeest buddies!
Well telling people to suck it up will grant you that attitude all while trying to appease Senpai GW who won't notice you for doing it. If you really went after them for Eradicators like you claimed you should have no problem going after them for this decision. Pretty damn simple.
I'll grant my choice of words probably wasn't as good as it should have been, but I didn't say suck it up. I said think about it, put it in context, and don't start just extending to other various theories, conspiracies, or ridiculous-isms.
Lord knows i had my fair share of issues with some of his opinions in the past but he is always decent.
I appreciate the words. You're being too kind. I can definitely be a dick, but I'll try harder.
What context? You're the one that brought up slippery slope to a situation that has LITERALLY happened. I posted the pictures for the Plague Marine and Blightlord options. What more context do you really want?
GW is just putting plague marine players in an intolerable situation. Pay for 10 models, get 7, if you want a 10 man squad buy 14 miniatures for the price of 20 and have 4 left over you can't really convert to characters.
At this point GW is literally pushing people to just print out 3 models to make a 10 man squad.
As for sticking with 8e, as a necron player i can say that wasn't an option for us.
Matt Swain wrote: GW is just putting plague marine players in an intolerable situation. Pay for 10 models, get 7, if you want a 10 man squad buy 14 miniatures for the price of 20 and have 4 left over you can't really convert to characters.
At this point GW is literally pushing people to just print out 3 models to make a 10 man squad.
As for sticking with 8e, as a necron player i can say that wasn't an option for us.
7 PM is 50CAD
10 Intercessors is 60CAD
Saying that youre paying the price of 10 models when only getting 7 is disingenuous.
And GW probably wants people to run 3x10 PM in their lists, so thats 5 boxes with a min size squad extra.
Still, i think that GW's current pricing for pretty much anything isnt something sustainable. I know i havnt bought anything from GW in a while now and a few people in my playgroup either. Full armies sourced from "alternative" sellers.
The latest thing to piss me off is the cost of the new Night lords Terminators. 120CAD for 5 models... i'll wait a few weeks and get 3 of these kits for the same price.
it is not hard as long as you don't need to play pick up games or tournaments
well that is nice for those two groups, I guess. Still considering muliple forums it doesn't seem like you see a lot of lists, tactics talk for other edition then the newest one, and maybe the older editions mentioned as examples. And more important there are no questions about how do I play this in that specific non current edition or people asking for FAQ/errata for armies from those times.
It seems to be even more niche, then open and narrative.
it is not hard as long as you don't need to play pick up games or tournaments
well that is nice for those two groups, I guess. Still considering muliple forums it doesn't seem like you see a lot of lists, tactics talk for other edition then the newest one, and maybe the older editions mentioned as examples. And more important there are no questions about how do I play this in that specific non current edition or people asking for FAQ/errata for armies from those times.
It seems to be even more niche, then open and narrative.
all it takes if for you to approach your playgroup and ask them to try it out. The rules for older editions can easily be found online.
Matt Swain wrote: GW is just putting plague marine players in an intolerable situation. Pay for 10 models, get 7, if you want a 10 man squad buy 14 miniatures for the price of 20 and have 4 left over you can't really convert to characters.
At this point GW is literally pushing people to just print out 3 models to make a 10 man squad.
As for sticking with 8e, as a necron player i can say that wasn't an option for us.
7 PM is 50CAD
10 Intercessors is 60CAD
Saying that youre paying the price of 10 models when only getting 7 is disingenuous.
And GW probably wants people to run 3x10 PM in their lists, so thats 5 boxes with a min size squad extra.
Still, i think that GW's current pricing for pretty much anything isnt something sustainable. I know i havnt bought anything from GW in a while now and a few people in my playgroup either. Full armies sourced from "alternative" sellers.
The latest thing to piss me off is the cost of the new Night lords Terminators. 120CAD for 5 models... i'll wait a few weeks and get 3 of these kits for the same price.
People not buying new stuff is how WHFB turned into AoS, which really sucked then, and only kind of sucks now. I get the anger at the direction, but the company has to continue to grow and make money. Shareholders are running the show now, and if the company doesn't project/produce record profits every year, then the stocks will tank and things will go downhill. The biggest downside to capitalism is the thought that infinite growth has to occur.
thing is, GW learned nothing from the Death of Warhammer Fantasy
they do the same thing with 40k as they have done to Fantasy, only difference is that they are slower with the changes and it is one Army by the time and not all at once
so they piss of only a small part who still sticks with the game because everyone else is playing it
if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue
there is no way out, GW won't change, either accept it or leave
mokoshkana wrote: People not buying new stuff is how WHFB turned into AoS, which really sucked then, and only kind of sucks now. I get the anger at the direction, but the company has to continue to grow and make money. Shareholders are running the show now, and if the company doesn't project/produce record profits every year, then the stocks will tank and things will go downhill. The biggest downside to capitalism is the thought that infinite growth has to occur.
If GW decided to sell their Contekar terminators at a reasonable price (lets say 60$), they probably wouldve made 120-180$ from me. Instead theyre getting 0$ and i'll still get my 15 termis. These kind of decisions that are made by board executives only push away normal people and hope on the fact that whales compensate.
it is not hard as long as you don't need to play pick up games or tournaments
well that is nice for those two groups, I guess. Still considering muliple forums it doesn't seem like you see a lot of lists, tactics talk for other edition then the newest one, and maybe the older editions mentioned as examples. And more important there are no questions about how do I play this in that specific non current edition or people asking for FAQ/errata for armies from those times.
It seems to be even more niche, then open and narrative.
all it takes if for you to approach your playgroup and ask them to try it out. The rules for older editions can easily be found online.
All it takes to fail is one or two people in your group to say "no".
Didn't fantasy just died, because GW hiked the prices so high for an army, that the army buying started to be mostly focused around secondary market, 3ed party companies and stuff like that.
I didn't play when fantasy was a thing, but I heard that it was practicaly impossible for a new player to join, because the regular game was pointed at so many points, they stopped getting any new player. And general horror stories like 5 boxs to make one unit and you needed 3 such units etc.
All it takes to fail is one or two people in your group to say "no".
well that too. It kind of is like the playing of non GW games. Who is going to buy and arm an, what ever points is played in lets say 6th ed, army to play vs 3-4 people. where 1-2 droping means you will have an illegal or, at best, bad army to use. That is a very big risk. And I understand that there can be people who will just not care, because they can buy a new 2000pts army every 2-3 months. But lets just say this is not something a lot of people can do, and probably no new players.
Matt Swain wrote: GW is just putting plague marine players in an intolerable situation. Pay for 10 models, get 7, if you want a 10 man squad buy 14 miniatures for the price of 20 and have 4 left over you can't really convert to characters.
At this point GW is literally pushing people to just print out 3 models to make a 10 man squad.
As for sticking with 8e, as a necron player i can say that wasn't an option for us.
I assume their idea is either:
1) You have Dark Imperium which IIRC had 7 guys with a plasma gun (legal)
2) You buy one box (7) and the ETB Plague Marines (3) and field a squad of 10 with 2 blight launchers or 1 blight launcher and something else (legal)
Matt Swain wrote: GW is just putting plague marine players in an intolerable situation. Pay for 10 models, get 7, if you want a 10 man squad buy 14 miniatures for the price of 20 and have 4 left over you can't really convert to characters.
At this point GW is literally pushing people to just print out 3 models to make a 10 man squad.
As for sticking with 8e, as a necron player i can say that wasn't an option for us.
I assume their idea is either:
1) You have Dark Imperium which IIRC had 7 guys with a plasma gun (legal)
2) You buy one box (7) and the ETB Plague Marines (3) and field a squad of 10 with 2 blight launchers or 1 blight launcher and something else (legal)
sadly the ETB marines are on sale anymore, at least here
Monopose has nothing to do with the restrictions on Blightlords. Each body in the kit has a corresponding combi-weapon arm holding half of a combi-weapon, you then add the half you want, with the kit containing 4 bolter halves and 1 each of plasma, melta, and flamer halves. Equipping more combi-weapons only requires acquiring more plasma, melta, or flamer bits, either by buying more boxes of Blightlords or buying/trading for more, which is exactly what must be done to equip Devastators or Retributors with four identical weapons, or Havocs etc. If that is acceptable for those units then it should be for Blightlords.
I also find it odd that you can't build the basic loadout of 5 combi-bolters + 5 swords with the kit, which contains only 4 bolter bits and 3 swords. The rules also allow 5 axes despite the kit only containing 3 axes. This doesn't make sense if the rules are supposed to be based on the contents of the kit.
It makes sense if you see the goal is to restrict DG players from having powerful, focused units a la Primaris.
Rumbleguts wrote: I wonder if they will remove twin linked devourer's from the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex.
Depends on whether FW will continue to sell it. If it goes to Last Chance to Buy then my bet would be it is going to be removed.
Plus the Flyrant is a bit weird. It has a lot of options that aren't available in the box or just don't fit onto the model itself. I mean, there is only one slot for a pair that you can put the devourers(twin or not), but if you want to Rending Claws as well you either have to tell your opponent that the thing on the wing or their leg is a Rending Claw or do some weird conversion that looks awful most of the time.
I would bet the Flyrant is going to see some changes in the next codex unless GW does a 180° on this move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: Didn't fantasy just died, because GW hiked the prices so high for an army, that the army buying started to be mostly focused around secondary market, 3ed party companies and stuff like that.
I didn't play when fantasy was a thing, but I heard that it was practicaly impossible for a new player to join, because the regular game was pointed at so many points, they stopped getting any new player. And general horror stories like 5 boxs to make one unit and you needed 3 such units etc.
You also needed a lot of models and a lot of the same models repeatedly(rank and file) for 2500-3000(which was a popular point size where I am from) which meant that getting into the game was too much for new players. This is something GW seems to want to remedy with the new game sizes.
I feel WHFB died because GW basically made it so you had blobs of 30-40 models or you had redirectors/chaff, and most things in the middle were pointless/obviously bad. (Not entirely true, some monsters etc saw play but internet hyperbole etc.)
So prospective new players would try and join a community, be told they needed 40 Halberdiers to start an Empire Army and decide that sounds like a lot of money and time so not bother.
I don't think armies were more expensive than 40k. Its just they had made the rules such that having 10 of an infantry unit - even relatively elite ones - was almost pointless.
kodos wrote: if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue
there is no way out, GW won't change, either except it or leave
How have people been able to equip Intercessors, Helblasters, or Reivers? Has the equipment available to Intercessors changed since their launch?
How have people been able to equip CSM Terminators, Havocs? Did both these kits lose or gain options?
Did we get lasfusil Eliminators right away?
Did Incubi gain or lose options in PA?
What about Necron Warriors?
Plague Marines are the same 7 guys from the box set recut onto their own sprue. Blightlords came right at the very start of the edition and to me it feels like they rushed them out the door.
The fact of the matter is that there are more instances of options being added then there are being removed, but here we are capitalizing on one odd instance of removal and another that is sort of a removal, but feels more like a restructure.
If you want to infer a strategy then I would think it is this - push out super cheap starter boxes with limited options and then sell an updated kit in the future with more bells and whistles. Who expects Outriders to always be as bland as they are?
What context? You're the one that brought up slippery slope to a situation that has LITERALLY happened. I posted the pictures for the Plague Marine and Blightlord options. What more context do you really want?
Slippery slope infers future action, which is what people did. "If GW removes options here then all our other kits will have options removed".
Its a perspective that pretty much ignores everything else around it to make a case of fear mongering when all people had to do was step back a second and look at what has changed ( or not ) during 8th.
kodos wrote: if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue
there is no way out, GW won't change, either except it or leave
How have people been able to equip Intercessors, Helblasters, or Reivers? Has the equipment available to Intercessors changed since their launch?
How have people been able to equip CSM Terminators, Havocs? Did both these kits lose or gain options?
Did we get lasfusil Eliminators right away?
Did Incubi gain or lose options in PA?
What about Necron Warriors?
Plague Marines are the same 7 guys from the box set recut onto their own sprue. Blightlords came right at the very start of the edition and to me it feels like they rushed them out the door.
The fact of the matter is that there are more instances of options being added then there are being removed, but here we are capitalizing on one odd instance of removal and another that is sort of a removal, but feels more like a restructure.
If you want to infer a strategy then I would think it is this - push out super cheap starter boxes with limited options and then sell an updated kit in the future with more bells and whistles. Who expects Outriders to always be as bland as they are?
What context? You're the one that brought up slippery slope to a situation that has LITERALLY happened. I posted the pictures for the Plague Marine and Blightlord options. What more context do you really want?
Slippery slope infers future action, which is what people did. "If GW removes options here then all our other kits will have options removed".
Its a perspective that pretty much ignores everything else around it to make a case of fear mongering when all people had to do was step back a second and look at what has changed ( or not ) during 8th.
Well I've been calling this a problem since Deathwatch had their ridiculous options regarding Dreads and Chaplains, and look what happened now. Some units get everything they want and others are left in the dust for nonsensical reasons. So this slippery slope is a problem NOW if we don't deal with it.
The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.
Maybe? Marines didn't lose anything did they? If this were to be more widespread, surely Space marine devastators and terminators would have had to deal with the same restrictions right?
The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.
Maybe? Marines didn't lose anything did they? If this were to be more widespread, surely Space marine devastators and terminators would have had to deal with the same restrictions right?
Hopefully this is a one-of that they will revert after seeing the mountain of emails they received.
The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.
Maybe? Marines didn't lose anything did they? If this were to be more widespread, surely Space marine devastators and terminators would have had to deal with the same restrictions right?
Didn't Space Marines lost all their HQs on bikes? there are 21 pages of Space Marines datasheets in their Legends page after all.
if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue
On playing their games: I have the internet. I have a shelf full of previous editions. I don't have to spend a dime on their rules...
On buying models: I'll stop buying stuff from GW when they stop making models I like. It's just that simple.
Problem is, playing their game means advertising it to others and get others into means people buy stuff
and the more people play, the more people start playing and GW sees that their Business Strategy (change for the sake of change to get people buying more) works
The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.
Maybe? Marines didn't lose anything did they? If this were to be more widespread, surely Space marine devastators and terminators would have had to deal with the same restrictions right?
I think that's a large part of the problem lots of the people still awaiting their 9th edition codex's etc don't trust GW not to F them overn with good reason i might add.
Drukari how many times did they suddenly find models vanish?
Choas Marines how often have they payed loyalist points for not loyalist rules since 8th started?
GSC we designed your book to work doing X oh no-one likes playing against X we will just change the rules to ban X
TAU yeah your army totally doesn't need a new codex for 9th , just aswell as you won't be getting one for 9 months to a year after the edition changes anyway.
kirotheavenger wrote: Yeah, Space Marines definitely lost options where you couldn't buy them from GW or kitbash them from bits you bought from GW.
I think you'll find marine's atleast got legends rules for 95% of the models that were removed from the codex. I can say for certain that didn't happen for other factions.
Especially anything FW.
kodos wrote: if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue
there is no way out, GW won't change, either except it or leave
How have people been able to equip Intercessors, Helblasters, or Reivers? Has the equipment available to Intercessors changed since their launch?
How have people been able to equip CSM Terminators, Havocs? Did both these kits lose or gain options?
Did we get lasfusil Eliminators right away?
Did Incubi gain or lose options in PA?
What about Necron Warriors?.
lets talk about DW, SW and BA
and for Necrons, 10€ that it will happen with the next Codex or with mid-Edition CA, depending on sales
guess is that DG made decent money in last Edition but sales were decreasing, meaning everyone you wants them has some already and as most people drop out after 2 Editions, the last chance for big money on current collections
so change in power and equipment to make the most and get people buying the new boxes
Hopefully this is a one-of that they will revert after seeing the mountain of emails they received.
For now, I'm chalking it up to that age old problem of codex writers apparently working in solitary confinement, and the second whomever wrote the marine dex gets a hold of this dex they'll say "Wait .. you did what? No, no, got to change that!"
Didn't Space Marines lost all their HQs on bikes? there are 21 pages of Space Marines datasheets in their Legends page after all.
That's not what this is though. That's not apples-to-apples imo. Squatting OOP models is totally different. They still make plasmas etc. There just aren't enough in the box. So in this comparison, it's the same as looking at Devastators and saying "since you can't get 5 grav cannons in the kit, 5 Grav cannons is no longer a legal build". Ditto the combi weapons in the Marine terminator kit if I am remembering correctly. But ... they didn't do that. So ....
That's not what this is though. That's not apples-to-apples imo. Squatting OOP models is totally different. They still make plasmas etc. There just aren't enough in the box. So in this comparison, it's the same as looking at Devastators and saying "since you can't get 5 grav cannons in the kit, 5 Grav cannons is no longer a legal build". Ditto the combi weapons in the Marine terminator kit if I am remembering correctly. But ... they didn't do that. So ....
And yet you quoted me on the rending claws of Hive Tyrants, which have been out of production for a while.
And yet you quoted me on the rending claws of Hive Tyrants, which have been out of production for a while.
Look at what I said - I said "Maybe?" lol
I'm just pointing out that the most obvious and direct corollary to this is Marine Terminators and Devastators and this didn't effect them at all. So it's anyone's guess as to how this will be applied "going forward". It wouldn't be the first time GW applied something to Chaos that others get to ignore, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did apply to everyone else and just FAQ the marines.
TL;Dr
Legends ≠ to this
Given the info we have, it's not clear how consistent this will be ...
Hey...no fair. You're not supposed to react that sensibly! What gives? Now I can't be annoyed at you any more.
Well, I'm sure I'll mess up again so don't worry.
Maybe quit the thread while you are ahead? Or the forum even.
I applaud Daedalus being willing to eat some humble pie in the name of better discussion.
As someone that mostly lurks, I see that a lot of the most prolific posters seem to always have the same opinion, usually negative and disagreeable. Maybe they only feel compelled to post when they do disagree, or maybe they are just unhappy and want us to know. They are probably right some of the time, but if its always one way with them, it can be hard to tell. And it just becomes noise to be filtered out. More reasonable posters carry a lot more weight, with me at least.
On to the subject, while I've already said why I am unhappy with the direction they went, I'm not entirely unsympathetic to what they're trying to do. I've got a colleague who plays with his son and sometimes asks me what options to build. If dad buys Little Timmy a Devastator Squad and makes 4 different guns and gives the sgt a Powerfist just like it shows on the box, then they go to the GW store for a game and Little Timmy's Devastators gets smoked by a more focused squad, no one is happy.
They seem to have known about this a while ago, putting all the Space Marine special weapons into their own squads for the new releases. But they then put out DG, CSM, and SoB releases under the old paradigm without the old ways to fix any "mistakes" made building the kits, and here we are.
What if they leaned harder into singles? The "blind buy" Space Marine Heroes look pretty damn good and are (IMO) at an acceptable price point, and all the models are monopose now anyways. Back in the day I got my Havoks and Terminators this way, buying exactly the ones I wanted. I never felt like I got cheated or had to buy something I didn't want. If you want to convert? Convert. Want a guy with a different gun? Buy it and use the replaced guy for another squad, rather than buy a whole extra box. Of course, the money would have to work out for GW to consider doing this, and I don't know if they consider the Heroes to be a "loss leader" or not. What do you think?
The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.
Maybe? Marines didn't lose anything did they? If this were to be more widespread, surely Space marine devastators and terminators would have had to deal with the same restrictions right?
Didn't Space Marines lost all their HQs on bikes? there are 21 pages of Space Marines datasheets in their Legends page after all.
Yeah, they lost all of them except for the captain and the new primaris chaplain.
Lets not forget that no generic "Captain on bike" model is sold by GW right now.
I think GW needs to relax on the 'rules must match kits EXACTLY' trend. It does not benefit anyone, and does not address the self-perceived issue they think it does because of chapterhouse. I was understanding when they cut out rules for things that never had a miniature, but wargear should not be determined by the number of sprues a kit has, or the exact sculpting on a resin model.
The DG daemon prince resin model has a sword, a claw, a plague spitter, and no wings. The plastic DP has a claw and options for a sword, an axe, another claw, and wings.
Because of this, to take a plague spitter it MUST have a sword and no wings. Because the plague spitter is only on the resin kit and the resin kit is armed that way. A DP with wings, axe, and/or double claws cannot take a plague spitter while a DP with plague spitter cannot take any weapon other than sword. No one benefits from making the dataslate work like this. There is no upside.
To address the usual counterpoint; yes, a few players will no longer feel 'forced' to convert to get an optimal loadout. That is a balance problem easily addressed by points and has nothing to do with removing options. Players who did not want to convert never had to do so.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think GW needs to relax on the 'rules must match kits EXACTLY' trend. It does not benefit anyone, and does not address the self-perceived issue they think it does because of chapterhouse. I was understanding when they cut out rules for things that never had a miniature, but wargear should not be determined by the number of sprues a kit has, or the exact sculpting on a resin model.
The DG daemon prince resin model has a sword, a claw, a plague spitter, and no wings. The plastic DP has a claw and options for a sword, an axe, another claw, and wings.
Because of this, to take a plague spitter it MUST have a sword and no wings. Because the plague spitter is only on the resin kit and the resin kit is armed that way. A DP with wings, axe, and/or double claws cannot take a plague spitter while a DP with plague spitter cannot take any weapon other than sword. No one benefits from making the dataslate work like this. There is no upside.
To address the usual counterpoint; yes, a few players will no longer feel 'forced' to convert to get an optimal loadout. That is a balance problem easily addressed by points and has nothing to do with removing options. Players who did not want to convert never had to do so.
Also, WYSIWYG isnt a rule so you don't even NEED to convert your minis.
I find it sad that GW has turned away from the days of promoting homecrafting and customizing 40k models and scenery. Looking at earlier editions like the 4th edition rulebook, there are sections devoted to customizing terrain and kitbashing miniatures with numerous examples and photos, and even a template to photocopy to use to build your own imperial bunker (plus the original Kill Team ruleset). These days? Why include material like that when you can sell separate books and "official" terrain kits.
I had a friend years ago who was really into Chaos 40k minis who would go wild kitbashing minis and complete terrain tables. Likely much of what he created would not be "legal" today. Creativity used to be a big part of this hobby but GW seems intent upon stamping that out due to corporate greed.
Also, WYSIWYG isnt a rule so you don't even NEED to convert your minis.
Yeah, but there's a reason it's in effect for all tournaments (including GW's own tournaments). Playing without WYSIWYG is a nightmare with mixed loadouts. It's one thing if it's "every dude in this squad has a plasma gun even though they all are modeled with bolters," but it just doesn't work to say "this DG guy has a plasma gun but he really has a flail but this other guy with a plasma gun does have a plasma gun, this guy with a bolter actually has a sword, this guy with the bolter has a knife, this one has..."
Also, WYSIWYG isnt a rule so you don't even NEED to convert your minis.
Yeah, but there's a reason it's in effect for all tournaments (including GW's own tournaments). Playing without WYSIWYG is a nightmare with mixed loadouts. It's one thing if it's "every dude in this squad has a plasma gun even though they all are modeled with bolters," but it just doesn't work to say "this DG guy has a plasma gun but he really has a flail but this other guy with a plasma gun does have a plasma gun, this guy with a bolter actually has a sword, this guy with the bolter has a knife, this one has..."
thats not the case. Tournaments usually just want your model's weapons to be easily identifiable. "all my special weapons are actually plasma" "the banner guy has a flail" or "the whole squad has bolters and knifes" are all valid ways to play.
I have not played a single game in 8th, nor will I likely play a single game of 9th. I love painting the models and my DG army is really coming together. I love not having to worry about what the current rules say and just building and painting for maximum coolness. I also feel for you folks in a a very real way as a dude who's 10 yr old Ork army was bought, built and painted to play starting in 5th ed. It was horrific trying to keep up with the rules with a horde army. Wont ever do it again.
and for Necrons, 10€ that it will happen with the next Codex or with mid-Edition CA, depending on sales
guess is that DG made decent money in last Edition but sales were decreasing, meaning everyone you wants them has some already and as most people drop out after 2 Editions, the last chance for big money on current collections
so change in power and equipment to make the most and get people buying the new boxes
Deathwatch is a cluster-f of an idea that has been bounced around, because they want to make them special, but also not stupidly good and stupidly confusing at the same time. Getting crammed into SM and waiting for a codex isn't really going to be representative. I haven't seen complaints about BA though.
If you think all their decision making revolves around sales then you're never going to think clearly about an issue.
thats not the case. Tournaments usually just want your model's weapons to be easily identifiable. "all my special weapons are actually plasma" "the banner guy has a flail" or "the whole squad has bolters and knifes" are all valid ways to play.
You might find more discerning opponents at bigger GTs, but I've never had a problem with *consistent* proxies that were well painted and well defined. Many people have a story about a model falling onto the floor and smashing to bits before a game.
if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue
On playing their games: I have the internet. I have a shelf full of previous editions. I don't have to spend a dime on their rules...
On buying models: I'll stop buying stuff from GW when they stop making models I like. It's just that simple.
Problem is, playing their game means advertising it to others and get others into means people buy stuff
and the more people play, the more people start playing and GW sees that their Business Strategy (change for the sake of change to get people buying more) works
I don't give a F. I'm not concerned with fighting the great eeevil of GW. Never have been. I just play the games I enjoy, for the most part with the people I enjoy playing games with. Some of those games, be they GW stuff or something else, just happen to occur at the local shop for convenience. If some one sees us playing a game there, having fun, & is inspired to join? Great. The more gamers, the better.
Also, WYSIWYG isnt a rule so you don't even NEED to convert your minis.
Yeah, but there's a reason it's in effect for all tournaments (including GW's own tournaments). Playing without WYSIWYG is a nightmare with mixed loadouts. It's one thing if it's "every dude in this squad has a plasma gun even though they all are modeled with bolters," but it just doesn't work to say "this DG guy has a plasma gun but he really has a flail but this other guy with a plasma gun does have a plasma gun, this guy with a bolter actually has a sword, this guy with the bolter has a knife, this one has..."
thats not the case. Tournaments usually just want your model's weapons to be easily identifiable. "all my special weapons are actually plasma" "the banner guy has a flail" or "the whole squad has bolters and knifes" are all valid ways to play.
Right...and this is a thread about how they're turned a datasheet into a nightmare in a way that doesn't allow you to say "all my special weapons are actually plasma" or whatever. There's no practical way to proxy your way out of the issue.
I don't give a F. I'm not concerned with fighting the great eeevil of GW. Never have been. I just play the games I enjoy, for the most part with the people I enjoy playing games with. Some of those games, be they GW stuff or something else, just happen to occur at the local shop for convenience. If some one sees us playing a game there, having fun, & is inspired to join? Great. The more gamers, the better.
Also, WYSIWYG isnt a rule so you don't even NEED to convert your minis.
Yeah, but there's a reason it's in effect for all tournaments (including GW's own tournaments). Playing without WYSIWYG is a nightmare with mixed loadouts. It's one thing if it's "every dude in this squad has a plasma gun even though they all are modeled with bolters," but it just doesn't work to say "this DG guy has a plasma gun but he really has a flail but this other guy with a plasma gun does have a plasma gun, this guy with a bolter actually has a sword, this guy with the bolter has a knife, this one has..."
thats not the case. Tournaments usually just want your model's weapons to be easily identifiable. "all my special weapons are actually plasma" "the banner guy has a flail" or "the whole squad has bolters and knifes" are all valid ways to play.
Right...and this is a thread about how they're turned a datasheet into a nightmare in a way that doesn't allow you to say "all my special weapons are actually plasma" or whatever. There's no practical way to proxy your way out of the issue.
yeah, and i was adding onto NinthMusketeer saying that GW needs to relax on the "rules must match kits exactly" trend.
I don't give a F. I'm not concerned with fighting the great eeevil of GW. Never have been. I just play the games I enjoy, for the most part with the people I enjoy playing games with. Some of those games, be they GW stuff or something else, just happen to occur at the local shop for convenience. If some one sees us playing a game there, having fun, & is inspired to join? Great. The more gamers, the better.
kodos wrote: I see no reason to play 9th with what happend to Wolves as I am not in the mood to re-work every single unit I have to get a playable list
I play wolves but didn't get the book, what all happened with their loadout options ? If I can bother you to lay it out there for me.
This is not a good way to fix anything. If a loadout is OP adjust the cost. If it is disadvantageous for out of the box players vs converters, sell official upgrade packs or spare sprues. Mixed weapon squads are not particularly good at any one thing, so if you end up mostly splitting fire, why bother with squads at all. As for individual loadouts that get invalidated, how about a issuing a not for matched play datasheet for those combinations as it would not effect completive meta and a fluffy last edition army can be left intact.
kodos wrote: I see no reason to play 9th with what happend to Wolves as I am not in the mood to re-work every single unit I have to get a playable list
I play wolves but didn't get the book, what all happened with their loadout options ? If I can bother you to lay it out there for me.
Something happened to their Scouts is all I really know
stratigo wrote: Decent what? He's a condescending, dismissive, and regularly insults people. More than what is standard for the pretty salty nature of Dakkadakka.
I disagree with your assessment, but I hear you. Like I said - I'll try to do better and I'll bow out of discussions if it looks like people are reacting negatively to my ideas.
Four years of insanity was lifted from my shoulders today so maybe I'll be more successful at tempering my approach.
stratigo wrote: Decent what? He's a condescending, dismissive, and regularly insults people. More than what is standard for the pretty salty nature of Dakkadakka.
I disagree with your assessment, but I hear you. Like I said - I'll try to do better and I'll bow out of discussions if it looks like people are reacting negatively to my ideas.
Four years of insanity was lifted from my shoulders today so maybe I'll be more successful at tempering my approach.
If you're referring to what I HOPE you're referring to, good riddance is my overall stance. Healthcare has been a fething nightmare the whole year and I'm willing to blame my COVID diagnosis on him.
stratigo wrote: Decent what? He's a condescending, dismissive, and regularly insults people. More than what is standard for the pretty salty nature of Dakkadakka.
I disagree with your assessment, but I hear you. Like I said - I'll try to do better and I'll bow out of discussions if it looks like people are reacting negatively to my ideas.
Four years of insanity was lifted from my shoulders today so maybe I'll be more successful at tempering my approach.
If you're referring to what I HOPE you're referring to, good riddance is my overall stance. Healthcare has been a fething nightmare the whole year and I'm willing to blame my COVID diagnosis on him.
Yessir. I really hope you recover well and your family stays healthy.
stratigo wrote: Decent what? He's a condescending, dismissive, and regularly insults people. More than what is standard for the pretty salty nature of Dakkadakka.
I disagree with your assessment, but I hear you. Like I said - I'll try to do better and I'll bow out of discussions if it looks like people are reacting negatively to my ideas.
Four years of insanity was lifted from my shoulders today so maybe I'll be more successful at tempering my approach.
If you're referring to what I HOPE you're referring to, good riddance is my overall stance. Healthcare has been a fething nightmare the whole year and I'm willing to blame my COVID diagnosis on him.
Yessir. I really hope you recover well and your family stay healthy.
Tried to, but I almost ended up in the hospital. He can rot for all I care.
Hiseadmose wrote: This is not a good way to fix anything. If a loadout is OP adjust the cost. If it is disadvantageous for out of the box players vs converters, sell official upgrade packs or spare sprues. Mixed weapon squads are not particularly good at any one thing, so if you end up mostly splitting fire, why bother with squads at all. As for individual loadouts that get invalidated, how about a issuing a not for matched play datasheet for those combinations as it would not effect completive meta and a fluffy last edition army can be left intact.
You don't need a separate datasheet, you and the person you're playing with, agree that it's OK as long as you pay points....done, no involvement from GW(less chance they feth up)
E.g.
If you turn up to play against me and have the "currently illegal loadout"(whatever the feth that means), I'll ask did you pay the appropriate points?
If yes, then Bueno.
If no, then we can talk about it and figure out what's amicable.
And if we can't come to an agreement, no sweat. I'll just never entertain playing with you again. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy
kodos wrote: I see no reason to play 9th with what happend to Wolves as I am not in the mood to re-work every single unit I have to get a playable list
I play wolves but didn't get the book, what all happened with their loadout options ? If I can bother you to lay it out there for me.
It's rather simple. There are no Wolf Scouts. There are now Space Wolves Scouts. The same scouts as for all the other Space Marine chapters.
Hiseadmose wrote: This is not a good way to fix anything. If a loadout is OP adjust the cost. If it is disadvantageous for out of the box players vs converters, sell official upgrade packs or spare sprues. Mixed weapon squads are not particularly good at any one thing, so if you end up mostly splitting fire, why bother with squads at all. As for individual loadouts that get invalidated, how about a issuing a not for matched play datasheet for those combinations as it would not effect completive meta and a fluffy last edition army can be left intact.
You don't need a separate datasheet, you and the person you're playing with, agree that it's OK as long as you pay points....done, no involvement from GW(less chance they feth up)
E.g.
If you turn up to play against me and have the "currently illegal loadout"(whatever the feth that means), I'll ask did you pay the appropriate points?
If yes, then Bueno.
If no, then we can talk about it and figure out what's amicable.
And if we can't come to an agreement, no sweat. I'll just never entertain playing with you again. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy
I appreciate your civility. I would like to see GW encourage such behavior. It would help with running OOP models that can longer be equipped with the gear and weapons they are modeled with and enhance the RPG aspect by letting your dudes buy upgrades or gear that may not be in the codex, should your opponent approve. Having standardized cost for these options will speed the figuring out what is amicable down too would you like these priced as modeled or counts as stock.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well they weren't dumb until they began to lose every single thing that made them vets over like 3 codex drops.
I don't even think they had Vet stats ever though did they? It basically just made them Scouts with overall equal deployment option but with access to Special Weapons. That's pretty meh as a specialty.
Well there was the time that scouts lost their BS and went down to hitting on 4s in CC and shooting remember ? So their states were it then and the wolf scouts had behind enemy lines which was pretty good and a unique thing for them as well as unique weapon load outs.
Was some other stuff but they kept phasing them out book after book to take away their flavor and point.
I don't give a F. I'm not concerned with fighting the great eeevil of GW. Never have been. I just play the games I enjoy, for the most part with the people I enjoy playing games with. Some of those games, be they GW stuff or something else, just happen to occur at the local shop for convenience. If some one sees us playing a game there, having fun, & is inspired to join? Great. The more gamers, the better.
than there is no reason to complain anyway
Complaints not mine, it's yours. You're the one who sees problems in playing/buying GW stuff....
It never gets old when people who are all happy, feel the need to complain about complaining as if they were pulled into the thread and told to read it and comment of how much they don't feel need to complain.
Though I think most who find issue with it have commented, and sent word to GW as I have. Those that felt it was ok also said their words to why it wasn't as bad as it could be. I don't see how saying. " Hey, I'm fine, doesn't matter to me. " Adds really anything aside from trying to voice how above the topic they are, within said topic.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well they weren't dumb until they began to lose every single thing that made them vets over like 3 codex drops.
I don't even think they had Vet stats ever though did they? It basically just made them Scouts with overall equal deployment option but with access to Special Weapons. That's pretty meh as a specialty.
they had Vet stats until mid 5th
by that time other Scouts went up from a 3s to 4s in their profile and SW Scouts lost their Special stuff one by the time until now
Original loadout with the new Codex in 5th for me was 2 units with 7 Scouts, 2 with Power Swords, 1 with Melter, 1 with Kombimelter and Power Fist and 3 with CC weapons
and the Box is still the same as the Scouts bits are part of the SW frame that was meant to be combined with the different Boxes (1 frame had bits to turn 1 Scout, 1 Tactical and 1 Devastor Box into SW) and is still the same
I don't give a F. I'm not concerned with fighting the great eeevil of GW. Never have been. I just play the games I enjoy, for the most part with the people I enjoy playing games with. Some of those games, be they GW stuff or something else, just happen to occur at the local shop for convenience. If some one sees us playing a game there, having fun, & is inspired to join? Great. The more gamers, the better.
than there is no reason to complain anyway
Complaints not mine, it's yours. You're the one who sees problems in playing/buying GW stuff....
I just see a problem of playing/buying GW stuff at the same time one gets crazy about unit entry change in a new Codex
Would be something if this was the first time overall, but just because it is the first time since DG have their own Codex (it is not that their loadout changed not in the past as part of Codex CSM) now acting like it never happend before is weird
I my opinion here is, if this is now such a big dealbreaker, stop playing/buying is the way to go
otherwise, if you still play/buy and have fun it is not a big deal anyway (so stop complaining)
kodos wrote: I see no reason to play 9th with what happend to Wolves as I am not in the mood to re-work every single unit I have to get a playable list
I don't get this. SW didn't lose anything, actually they gained access to tons of new stuff. In fact even 5th edition lists are still playable and they're not even bad!!! I'm having a lot of fun with my firstborn SW as I can really field whatever I want as the codex is extremely strong but none of the nasty stuff comes from old units. Only a few mounted characters migrated to Legends, but that's before 9th, and scouts I think are different now. Thankfully all my mounted models are magnetized so I didn't lose anything.
Lord knows i had my fair share of issues with some of his opinions in the past but he is always decent.
Decent what? He's a condescending, dismissive, and regularly insults people. More than what is standard for the pretty salty nature of Dakkadakka.
the former two are accurate, especially some defenses of him i found that way. But insulting? Daedalus? Maybee something get's lost in translation here but that i feel is not true.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: When you keep going after someone who raised his hand and said sorry for getting carried away, he's not the one who comes off looking bad.
And this is especially true.
EDIT: Regardless, i find the cut of equipment for the sake of facilitating new buy ins , and this is what this is, frankly disgusting. I was willing to look over some of the glaring issues of typos within the free pts update, i even gave them credit for it, and with them i mean gw. But it's damn hard to not laugh out loud when someone says they changed for the better just because they now "interact " on social media when you see stuff like this.
But then maybee i am double burnt from GW and seriously doubt their abilities unfairly, but then i pick up a translated codex and start laughing again.
the Codex is stronger and has more options than ever
but the units I have are build in a way that does not fit the current options/loadouts and I need to exchange models or add more to a unit to play
(and I was running a Scout heavy list)
it is not a big deal and would be easy to get along (as it was the same in the past with each new Codex) but this time I decided that it is not worth it any more
spend money and time to get 1 or 2 games before it changes again (without a pandemic it might have been different as we would I have a large event near my hometown which I would have joined to support the guys doing it)
stratigo wrote: Decent what? He's a condescending, dismissive, and regularly insults people. More than what is standard for the pretty salty nature of Dakkadakka.
I disagree with your assessment, but I hear you. Like I said - I'll try to do better and I'll bow out of discussions if it looks like people are reacting negatively to my ideas.
Four years of insanity was lifted from my shoulders today so maybe I'll be more successful at tempering my approach.
As someone old enough to remember Dial Up Internet, BBS systems (yes I know the S stands for system shush) and the heydey of IRC, It's a hearty chuckle when people think Dakka is in any way toxic. It's a hugbox by any other name.
But on topic: I can't wait to see the rage when they restrict the amount of Chaincannons Havocs can take, as it needed multiple boxes to get enough.
Not sure BCB, i doubt you'd see much rage, due to how many players just converted them... as it stands i know not one chaos player that has decided that buying 4 boxes to get a full squad of em, was worth the money.
Not Online!!! wrote: Not sure BCB, i doubt you'd see much rage, due to how many players just converted them... as it stands i know not one chaos player that has decided that buying 4 boxes to get a full squad of em, was worth the money.
Not when a squad of Mark 3s and some of the fw rotar cannons works just as well for far less than half the money.
Not Online!!! wrote: Not sure BCB, i doubt you'd see much rage, due to how many players just converted them... as it stands i know not one chaos player that has decided that buying 4 boxes to get a full squad of em, was worth the money.
Not when a squad of Mark 3s and some of the fw rotar cannons works just as well for far less than half the money.
and you get the bonus of your heavy weapons guy not being larger than the rest of your CSM squad too!
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well there was the time that scouts lost their BS and went down to hitting on 4s in CC and shooting remember ? So their states were it then and the wolf scouts had behind enemy lines which was pretty good and a unique thing for them as well as unique weapon load outs.
Was some other stuff but they kept phasing them out book after book to take away their flavor and point.
Figures, I actually liked them,
Scouts are just in a really weird position overall. I'd almost call them a dead unit. The kit will never be updated and I don't see GW making any sweeping changes to them. I'm sure they make an ok cheap backfield unit in cover or w/e, but I don't think they can ever outshine other options.
Scouts are just in a really weird position overall. I'd almost call them a dead unit. The kit will never be updated and I don't see GW making any sweeping changes to them. I'm sure they make an ok cheap backfield unit in cover or w/e, but I don't think they can ever outshine other options.
Given how much GW hated the fact that a lot of people took them as a main troop choice in 8th, I would not be at all surprised to see the elimination of scouts as the harbinger of the great firstborn squatting. Whenever that happens ...
BaconCatBug wrote: As someone old enough to remember Dial Up Internet, BBS systems (yes I know the S stands for system shush) and the heydey of IRC, It's a hearty chuckle when people think Dakka is in any way toxic. It's a hugbox by any other name.
I fondly remember the AOL chat room with GW. It was a trip to be bugging the gak out of the designers.
Not Online!!! wrote: Not sure BCB, i doubt you'd see much rage, due to how many players just converted them... as it stands i know not one chaos player that has decided that buying 4 boxes to get a full squad of em, was worth the money.
Not when a squad of Mark 3s and some of the fw rotar cannons works just as well for far less than half the money.
and you get the bonus of your heavy weapons guy not being larger than the rest of your CSM squad too!
But isn't it a bit different. It is a bit as if GW decided that csm squads can not heavy rottary cannons and what ever was considered the optimal weapon to go along side of it , while a the same time making the unit sized required to having both a heavy and a special 12 model strong.
But all I know is that when the rottary cannons for csm became a thing people here were super happy, to a point where my place run out of resin, because they were getting so many orders.
Not Online!!! wrote: Not sure BCB, i doubt you'd see much rage, due to how many players just converted them... as it stands i know not one chaos player that has decided that buying 4 boxes to get a full squad of em, was worth the money.
Not when a squad of Mark 3s and some of the fw rotar cannons works just as well for far less than half the money.
and you get the bonus of your heavy weapons guy not being larger than the rest of your CSM squad too!
But isn't it a bit different. It is a bit as if GW decided that csm squads can not heavy rottary cannons and what ever was considered the optimal weapon to go along side of it , while a the same time making the unit sized required to having both a heavy and a special 12 model strong.
But all I know is that when the rottary cannons for csm became a thing people here were super happy, to a point where my place run out of resin, because they were getting so many orders.
what?
GW are the ones that made the chaincannon legal for basic CSM.
Well it may not stay legal for basic squads is the problem. You just can't know for sure these days. You fill a list and then oops, it's only on havocs and you can only take 1 per 5 man even there. We need to see it happen but if it does the signs were out there. I am looking forward to the DE codex but also really afraid to get that information as if it ends up following the whats in the one box idea some units ( looking at scourges ) might as well not exist then.
Danny76 wrote: Can someone post the Plague Marine datasheet?
I’ve only seen the Termies one in here, but trawling all the pages in case it’s there is a bit much,,
stratigo wrote: Decent what? He's a condescending, dismissive, and regularly insults people. More than what is standard for the pretty salty nature of Dakkadakka.
I disagree with your assessment, but I hear you. Like I said - I'll try to do better and I'll bow out of discussions if it looks like people are reacting negatively to my ideas.
Four years of insanity was lifted from my shoulders today so maybe I'll be more successful at tempering my approach.
As someone old enough to remember Dial Up Internet, BBS systems (yes I know the S stands for system shush) and the heydey of IRC, It's a hearty chuckle when people think Dakka is in any way toxic. It's a hugbox by any other name.
But on topic: I can't wait to see the rage when they restrict the amount of Chaincannons Havocs can take, as it needed multiple boxes to get enough.
"Back in my day, people were shouting slurs at each other all the time. Of course I just chuckle because none of those slurs ever referred to me"
yeah, Dakka doesn't let people shout the N word in every thread. But, like, if that wasn't a rule, it'd probly show up every other thread like it does on 4chan. Dakka is an incredibly salty community restrained by at least some rules. Let's not wax nostalgic over how awful people are with less rules, especially under the modern political climate.
Dakka is by any objective measure a nice place to be. The internet and its many forms hold many horrors, this isn't one of them. If having people speak, forcefully of their own opinion that doesn't match your own count as " toxic " the net is only going to get worse.
We could be better, and some of us do admit that but its far from the dark heart of warhammer.
I find it in fact more troubling to know people can't handle disagreement of any kind without hate, that isn't political that is a break down of personal discourse that has been happening for awhile. Some topics or places simply let it rise to the surface much easier.
(from the News topic as should to use this one for such discussions)
AngryAngel80 wrote: Some various levels of marines have had that happen over and over. Some set ups for Space wolves, Dark Angels, Deathwatch. I got to thinking on it last night and I actually got pretty upset, if I can be honest with you all. Made me question just stopping altogether.
This current situation being just that last straw. Like I went and spent the time for Space wolves to craft a fun, if not awesome wolf scout squad, a couple of them, only to have to alter their set ups, twice now and now it's wrong again. Spend the time to find and get the old generic wolf priest model, just for them to become chaplains and lose their flavor , making him basically a glorified chaplain, no more rune priests they are just libbys now.
[....]
Edit: On topic of my guard, I'm still afraid to build my Bullgryns because they originally came out with slab shield and that grenade gauntlet. Now, you can take the club with the shield but I am still very afraid I'll build them, paint them and as soon as i enjoy them they'll be changed for no reason other than " We changed our mind. " I don't think a player should have to feel that from their game system, that is a clear sign to me at least how messed up they are in this regard.
feel you, as I was at the same point
but for some the constant change is the exiting part of the hobby because playing always the same without being forced by the Devs to change is boring (change for the sake of change is not exclusive to GW)
I am not a big fan of needing to re-work an army as soon as I finished painting it just because someone else thought it might be a good idea
in the past I started a new one with a new Codex/Edition to keep playing, at some point the idea of a universal Marine army came up and was executed to some extend to keep up with the changes
but 8th was my last Edition for now as I don't see any benefit to re-build something or buy anything new just to have to do it again before I am able to play a game (as I expect changes to happen again with CA)
this thigns will never change with GW as their design philosophy is to make the model first and than think about what rules may fit but at the same time "having a crazy idea every 2 minutes that we will put into the rules" (yes, Devs said that this is their plan for 9th Edition in one of the promo videos)
my games are now either those that have proofen to not change much during updates (never start with a 1st Editon, wait for the 2nd or 3rd to see what is going on)
Daedalus81 wrote: I snagged a clearer one. I can kick out more stuff from the book if people want other details.
Hold on. Maybe I'm being stupid here but can anyone explain to me why the Blight Launcher and Plague Spewer restrictions are worded as they are? They're different to the plasma/melta/belcher restrictions in text but not in function, at least as far as I can figure out. The restrictions are stupid enough as is, but I'm struggling to understand what this specific set of restrictions achieves.
Edit: aaaand the penny has dropped. God that's dumb.
Danny76 wrote: Can someone post the Plague Marine datasheet?
I’ve only seen the Termies one in here, but trawling all the pages in case it’s there is a bit much,,
It's literally the first post.
Oh that’s what that is.
Links dead or whatever, for me anyway. Just a failed picture square thing.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well there was the time that scouts lost their BS and went down to hitting on 4s in CC and shooting remember ? So their states were it then and the wolf scouts had behind enemy lines which was pretty good and a unique thing for them as well as unique weapon load outs.
Was some other stuff but they kept phasing them out book after book to take away their flavor and point.
Figures, I actually liked them,
Scouts are just in a really weird position overall. I'd almost call them a dead unit. The kit will never be updated and I don't see GW making any sweeping changes to them. I'm sure they make an ok cheap backfield unit in cover or w/e, but I don't think they can ever outshine other options.
I don't have the new codex, but I believe they still have a distinction of being able to infiltrate with a Heavy weapon. Their Sergeant can be loaded out pretty well too. In the opposite direction they're probably the cheapest infantry unit Marines can field with the probable exception of Servitors.
This stuff is why I switched to playing F28: War Always Changes, with my 40K minis.
Too many cycles of, spend a couple of years working out how I really wanted to play an army, tracking down the bits, converting the model, starting to get it painted, then a new edition would come out and invalidate the whole process.
*contemplates sad Dark Angels techmarine on converted trike with force field generator*
GW are the ones that made the chaincannon legal for basic CSM.
Yes, but there is a difference between adding a new weapon to a squads line up. A changing a units rule set in a such a way that the most often run set ups, become either illegal or so bad you don't want or can't run them. One is a choice, you can or can not buy the new or new best thing. The other brings no choice, if you want to play with the stuff you have, you have to buy extra models. And the more extra models you have to buy, and the less the new set up is efficient comparing to the old one, the more people are going to be unhappy about it.
In the opposite direction they're probably the cheapest infantry unit Marines can field with the probable exception of Servitors.
Aren't they 1W though? that makes them less point efficient then the other 2W infiltrating units.
Hold on. Maybe I'm being stupid here but can anyone explain to me why the Blight Launcher and Plague Spewer restrictions are worded as they are? They're different to the plasma/melta/belcher restrictions in text but not in function, at least as far as I can figure out. The restrictions are stupid enough as is, but I'm struggling to understand what this specific set of restrictions achieves.
Edit: aaaand the penny has dropped. God that's dumb.
Take a look at the instructions and it becomes clear:
-One of the builds for Plague Marine 4 has the Blight Launcher, so its separate.
-Plague Marine 5 can be built with one Plasma, Melta, or Plague Belcher, so its separate.
-Plague Marine 6 can have the Plague Spewer, so its separate.
And then the extra guns per 5 models follows that same convention.
The melee stuff follows the same convention, too. Plague Marine 6 can have an axe. Plague Marine 2 can also have an axe, and the instructions call for him to also be given a mace. So those are separate entries. You can't have two guys with just axes or take just a mace at all, despite having a lot of leftover parts once you've built each variant. Because the instructions don't spell that out.
Hold on. Maybe I'm being stupid here but can anyone explain to me why the Blight Launcher and Plague Spewer restrictions are worded as they are? They're different to the plasma/melta/belcher restrictions in text but not in function, at least as far as I can figure out. The restrictions are stupid enough as is, but I'm struggling to understand what this specific set of restrictions achieves.
Edit: aaaand the penny has dropped. God that's dumb.
Take a look at the instructions and it becomes clear:
-One of the builds for Plague Marine 4 has the Blight Launcher, so its separate.
-Plague Marine 5 can be built with one Plasma, Melta, or Plague Belcher, so its separate.
-Plague Marine 6 can have the Plague Spewer, so its separate.
And then the extra guns per 5 models follows that same convention.
The melee stuff follows the same convention, too. Plague Marine 6 can have an axe. Plague Marine 2 can also have an axe, and the instructions call for him to also be given a mace. So those are separate entries. You can't have two guys with just axes or take just a mace at all, despite having a lot of leftover parts once you've built each variant. Because the instructions don't spell that out.
My initial confusion was down to my own stupidity: I incorrectly assumed even GW couldn't be that dumb.
Well, I think we should summary the discussion in the approach GW has towards converting and modeling. Which is duplicitous.
Converting and modeling are the cornerstones of the hobby as it is, but both from a pure business perspective are detrimental... For the slight chances that someone may purchase multiple kits you open and encourage towards third party components, second hand market and such
Considered that GW decision are made by management who pretty clearly does not play/care/know about the game, I think they aren't even realizing they are shooting in their own foot.
I said it before and I say it again: GW is a bubble about to burst due to 3d, printing and such. I have a 3d printer in one of our gaming chat that purchase 3d models and customize them in terms of poses and weapons as you want them. GW simply can't compete.
The sooner they realize that the only business mod l susteinable for them long-term is the old Citadel approach (pure manufacturing) plus and IP company, the better.
I said it before and I say it again: GW is a bubble about to burst due to 3d, printing and such. I have a 3d printer in one of our gaming chat that purchase 3d models and customize them in terms of poses and weapons as you want them. GW simply can't compete.
People have said that for decades, meanwhile GW has record high profits.
So the current evidence is that they can compete, even thrive.
I said it before and I say it again: GW is a bubble about to burst due to 3d, printing and such. I have a 3d printer in one of our gaming chat that purchase 3d models and customize them in terms of poses and weapons as you want them. GW simply can't compete.
People have said that for decades, meanwhile GW has record high profits.
So the current evidence is that they can compete, even thrive.
People have been talking about 3D printing for decades?
I said it before and I say it again: GW is a bubble about to burst due to 3d, printing and such. I have a 3d printer in one of our gaming chat that purchase 3d models and customize them in terms of poses and weapons as you want them. GW simply can't compete.
People have said that for decades, meanwhile GW has record high profits.
So the current evidence is that they can compete, even thrive.
People have been talking about 3D printing for decades?
If you don't get the difference between long-term (back then) and short term (now). But it's human to understand change only after change already happened.
As I said, I can pay around the GW price (even less in some cases) and have a custom made model. Good for you that you like GW sculpting choices, I suppose?
Case ih point: I have a IK army fully converted, poseable, painted and with led. I never find a matching Imperial Guard Platoon. I found it as CAD model on Patreon, and I'm about to spend again in miniatures after quite some time, because I (the consumer) can really decide what I want instead of being fed the GW kool aid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, BTW, I explicitly said that the Citadel facilities for mass production have a business value. It's simply a different one that the boutique-exclusive approach they cornered themselves into.
I mean, good for you that you have a 3D printer and know how to use it, but you cannot extrapolate your anecdotal experience into more generalist market forces.
Not Online!!! wrote: Not sure BCB, i doubt you'd see much rage, due to how many players just converted them... as it stands i know not one chaos player that has decided that buying 4 boxes to get a full squad of em, was worth the money.
Well no, if you want a full squad of chain cannons (or anything else that comes only x#/box) you just buy the extra bitz online. Either official bitz, 3rd party, or 3d printed.
Some things can also be scratch built easily enough.
I said it before and I say it again: GW is a bubble about to burst due to 3d, printing and such. I have a 3d printer in one of our gaming chat that purchase 3d models and customize them in terms of poses and weapons as you want them. GW simply can't compete.
People have said that for decades, meanwhile GW has record high profits.
So the current evidence is that they can compete, even thrive.
I went to try and print a custom model by someone on this forum. Something the size of a daemon prince was going to run me $90 for good quality material.
People have said that for decades, meanwhile GW has record high profits.
So the current evidence is that they can compete, even thrive.
Yep. This just came up in a different thread so we must be at the start of the new cycle because we cover this subject every 3 to 5 years. Last time we had a serious talk about it, the prediction of many in that thread was that, by 2015, 3D printers would be as ubiquitous as microwaves and GW simply would NOT be able to keep up. And look where we are. 3D printing certainly can do amazing things, and it is very wide spread. In fact, it's never been better or easier than right now. And yet GW just smashed out record profits during a time when most people can't even physically go to a store.
3D printing isn't ever likely to put them out of business. Gluing models to the bottom of a bucket and dumping in your modling compound of choice is WAY faster, easier, and more accessible. In fact there's a semi-pro black market that is MASSIVE. If that didn't harm GW, a process that is more complicated, more time consuming, less accessible, and way more expensive, isn't likely to either. People dramatically over estimate this. Dramatically.
3D Printers aren't priced appropriately yet. They will get there eventually, but at the moment, you aren't getting GW quality models for less than GW price. The best quality non-resin printers still have some grit and lines on the model from my experience. I have an acquaintance with a resin printer, which is absurd quality, but the price point is going to match that for a while yet.
3D Printers aren't priced appropriately yet. They will get there eventually, but at the moment, you aren't getting GW quality models for less than GW price. The best quality non-resin printers still have some grit and lines on the model from my experience. I have an acquaintance with a resin printer, which is absurd quality, but the price point is going to match that for a while yet.
It's not even necessarily just the price. It's the quantity. For every 5 Primaris models you can print, GW can crank out 50 ... the economy of scale isn't likely to be overcome any time soon.
I'd suggest taking the seasonal "will 3D printing ever make GW go out of business" convo to a new thread so that we can roll our eyes at having to have the same chat again. I'm pretty sure it won't be happening any time soon but I'm also pretty sure that 3D printer fans won't shut up about it any time soon either.
3D printing now is the same as Resin Casting was 10/15 years ago
there were people selling negatives for mold making or you just copied what you have
everyone making custom bases/terrain/models etc
and the main reason it worked for some was that it was cheaper than GW (although some people claim that Resin casting is always cheaper than plastic model production)
and this is the same now with 3D printing, it is only worth it for 2 points, either no one is casting what you want/need or you compare it to GW prices
you can never make Napoleonic Soldiers cheaper or better with 3D Printing than the ones sold in plastic
except you want a scale that does not exist out there (know some people who make 2mm 3D print Napoleonic for his own use, or 15mm Kings of War)
if you compare the per model price with GW, it is worth it as you can make a Land Raider for less than the GW price in medium Quality
High Quality Resin print and you are still cheaper than those 5 model boxes from GW but larger models get expensive (or you need to adjust the files and not print solid objects)
looking at terrain, a 3D print Napoleonic themed table costs ~2 times what the same amount of GW Fantasy terrain costs
and another point is, 3D printing takes time
this is something you can do on your own for an army in a year project
but selling models outside the niche of a niche and you cannot compete against resin or plastic casting (as they can make more for less, much faster)
what 3D printing is doing now is shaking up the smale scale wargaming scene, as 2-15mm is now available for all genres for a good price in high quality
I said it before and I say it again: GW is a bubble about to burst due to 3d, printing and such. I have a 3d printer in one of our gaming chat that purchase 3d models and customize them in terms of poses and weapons as you want them. GW simply can't compete.
People have said that for decades, meanwhile GW has record high profits.
So the current evidence is that they can compete, even thrive.
I went to try and print a custom model by someone on this forum. Something the size of a daemon prince was going to run me $90 for good quality material.
yeah, no. you can buy yourself a 300$ printer with a kilogram of resin for 40$ and print ay more than 340$ worth of high quality minis. If you go to 3D printing services, of course its gonna be expensive.
yeah, no. you can buy yourself a 300$ printer with a kilogram of resin for 40$ and print ay more than 340$ worth of high quality minis.
And take up space in your home, use up some electricity, and let's say take around 30 hours of your time monitoring the printer to ensure it doesn't mess up, and cleaning/sanding the minis after. That honestly sounds like an awesome hobby but at that point I'd rather go and do say 4 days of paid work, and buy whichever minis I want.
VladimirHerzog wrote: yeah, no. you can buy yourself a 300$ printer with a kilogram of resin for 40$ and print ay more than 340$ worth of high quality minis. If you go to 3D printing services, of course its gonna be expensive.
Agreed. People need to factor in that the main cost of using somebody else's printer is paying for it to be tied up making your order.
Also, given the cost of an army, a $1,000 investment in 3d printing could be easily justified let alone $300. It may be in the not too distant future that we consider CAD design skills right up there with painting and modeling skills if not more valuable for their ability to be replicated at will by almost anybody.
yeah, no. you can buy yourself a 300$ printer with a kilogram of resin for 40$ and print ay more than 340$ worth of high quality minis.
And take up space in your home, use up some electricity, and let's say take around 30 hours of your time monitoring the printer to ensure it doesn't mess up, and cleaning/sanding the minis after. That honestly sounds like an awesome hobby but at that point I'd rather go and do say 4 days of paid work, and buy whichever minis I want.
im not claiming 3d printing will kill GW (it wont), i'm saying that its much less expensive than what they made it out to be.
Oh, 40k already takes space in your home, your PC already uses up some electricity and you don't need to actively monitor the whole print.
Sure there is some extra work after the print but 3dprinting is a hobby in and of itself.
Oh, and if i can get 3 Sicaran battle tanks for 40$ instead of 450$, i'll gladly put in the extra elbow grease.
I have been struggling with 3d printing as an idea. I REALLY want a Ares Gunship, but I don't want to lie to the GW store owner when he asks why it looks "off" and not crisp. I mean there are about 1001 lies that can easily cover the act. I sculpted it out of Greenstuff and old sprus! It's a self made one/Kitbash! But I don't want to lie to him or tell the truth and not be allowed to play in the store anymore.
Oh, and if i can get 3 Sicaran battle tanks for 40$ instead of 450$, i'll gladly put in the extra elbow grease.
Tanks are easy. It's the stuff like Szeras. That kit would be damn hard to print, which also incidentally is the hardest kit I've ever had to build.
fair enough, but it still wouldnt be that hard to do if youre willing to get into it. Its all about knowing where to put your supports. And i'm talking about resin 3d printers, not SLA.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I have been struggling with 3d printing as an idea. I REALLY want a Ares Gunship, but I don't want to lie to the GW store owner when he asks why it looks "off" and not crisp. I mean there are about 1001 lies that can easily cover the act. I sculpted it out of Greenstuff and old sprus! It's a self made one/Kitbash! But I don't want to lie to him or tell the truth and not be allowed to play in the store anymore.
Find a different store if he's gonna act like a dictator then.
Tanks are easy. It's the stuff like Szeras. That kit would be damn hard to print, which also incidentally is the hardest kit I've ever had to build.
I'm still trying to figure out how I'm ever going to transport Szeras ...
I'll put a plug here for the Battlafoam mangaracks with sliding trays. I'm able to transport everything in my 2k Army, including the Silent King in a 750 with 2 sliding mangarack trays.
yeah, no. you can buy yourself a 300$ printer with a kilogram of resin for 40$ and print ay more than 340$ worth of high quality minis.
And take up space in your home, use up some electricity, and let's say take around 30 hours of your time monitoring the printer to ensure it doesn't mess up, and cleaning/sanding the minis after. That honestly sounds like an awesome hobby but at that point I'd rather go and do say 4 days of paid work, and buy whichever minis I want.
I haven't got a meter on mine but it's two lcd screens and a servomotor, my computer has got to be using 5x-10x as much electricity.
Also, the cleaning and prep work is generally about the same as plastic models. At this point for me, the only thing that takes extra time is putting supports on. Given the approximately 90% discount compared to GW I will take it.
Latest print run I did of stuff I couldve bought from GW was 10 dire avengers, which cost approximately 6$ of resin - and I am using the more expensive, less smelly stuff. 110$ if I bought them from GW.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I have been struggling with 3d printing as an idea. I REALLY want a Ares Gunship, but I don't want to lie to the GW store owner when he asks why it looks "off" and not crisp. I mean there are about 1001 lies that can easily cover the act. I sculpted it out of Greenstuff and old sprus! It's a self made one/Kitbash! But I don't want to lie to him or tell the truth and not be allowed to play in the store anymore.
Find a different store if he's gonna act like a dictator then.
Honestly asking: Doesn't GW do this as a blanket policy at all their events/stores? It's not his fault, he just doesn't want to get in trouble. I understand that. I wouldn't start talking up Audi's at a BMW Test drive event.
And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I have been struggling with 3d printing as an idea. I REALLY want a Ares Gunship, but I don't want to lie to the GW store owner when he asks why it looks "off" and not crisp. I mean there are about 1001 lies that can easily cover the act. I sculpted it out of Greenstuff and old sprus! It's a self made one/Kitbash! But I don't want to lie to him or tell the truth and not be allowed to play in the store anymore.
Find a different store if he's gonna act like a dictator then.
Honestly asking: Doesn't GW do this as a blanket policy at all their events/stores? It's not his fault, he just doesn't want to get in trouble. I understand that. I wouldn't start talking up Audi's at a BMW Test drive event.
GW stores I've been at have kept to more of a don't ask/don't tell on 3d printing; if they can't tell it's 3d printed or if the 3d printing is conversion parts rather than whole minis they don't mind so much. It will depend on the manager, though, and they'll be stricter if their overseers from corporate are around.
Mr. Grey wrote: And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
But, but, but......most people feel their piracy is justified because GW is stealing from them by charging so much. However you've hit the nail on the head. Printing duplicates of GW models is definitely piracy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And now we are WAY off topic from the original point of this thread...
Tanks are easy. It's the stuff like Szeras. That kit would be damn hard to print, which also incidentally is the hardest kit I've ever had to build.
I'm still trying to figure out how I'm ever going to transport Szeras ...
I won't even mention how I screwed up his legs and had to hack them at the joint to switch them...gak...
Right. And the "victim" on my Szeras DEFINITELY isn't over-hanging the base by a silly degree ...
I'll put a plug here for the Battlafoam mangaracks with sliding trays. I'm able to transport everything in my 2k Army, including the Silent King in a 750 with 2 sliding mangarack trays.
mokoshkana wrote: 3D Printers aren't priced appropriately yet. They will get there eventually, but at the moment, you aren't getting GW quality models for less than GW price. The best quality non-resin printers still have some grit and lines on the model from my experience. I have an acquaintance with a resin printer, which is absurd quality, but the price point is going to match that for a while yet.
Some people might rather pay the same cost from a 3d printed model just to keep from handing gw more money. I mean some people get sick of being gouged all the time and resent gw's blatant cash grabs.
Mr. Grey wrote: And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.
Mr. Grey wrote: And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.
You’re literally advocating for piracy here. If you feel morally objectionable to GW and any of their business practices, then don’t play their game. Recasts or 3D prints of existing models is piracy. Were you to purchase and use stand in models that someone else created from scratch, that’s different. But please don’t try to justify using recasts or exact prints of existing models as it really is patently theft.
mokoshkana wrote: You’re literally advocating for piracy here. If you feel morally objectionable to GW and any of their business practices, then don’t play their game. Recasts or 3D prints of existing models is piracy. Were you to purchase and use stand in models that someone else created from scratch, that’s different. But please don’t try to justify using recasts or exact prints of existing models as it really is patently theft.
Mr. Grey wrote: And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.
So you're totally fine with stealing from designers and sculptors and the business that supports them. Not just fine even, but actually advocating it as the morally superior thing to do. Ok.
mokoshkana wrote: You’re literally advocating for piracy here. If you feel morally objectionable to GW and any of their business practices, then don’t play their game. Recasts or 3D prints of existing models is piracy. Were you to purchase and use stand in models that someone else created from scratch, that’s different. But please don’t try to justify using recasts or exact prints of existing models as it really is patently theft.
Mr. Grey wrote: And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.
I wonder with what justification the illegal recasting / 3d printing is morally ok.
It's plain stealing / piracy and people claiming otherwise are just trying to justify what they are doing.
Thats like shoplifting and saying it's pricey so it's ok.
If anyone wants to do that, where is the line?
Recasting?
Shoplifting?
Pickpocketing?
Robbery?
I know it's becoming more and more popular, but for me it's still a no-go.
Also the argument of a "victimless crime" is nonsense, because it isn't.
Mr. Grey wrote: And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.
You’re literally advocating for piracy here. If you feel morally objectionable to GW and any of their business practices, then don’t play their game. Recasts or 3D prints of existing models is piracy. Were you to purchase and use stand in models that someone else created from scratch, that’s different. But please don’t try to justify using recasts or exact prints of existing models as it really is patently theft.
Well when they're able to print a codex with little typos and rules/points that last longer than a couple of months, let me know.
Hecaton wrote: I mean, is this a conversation I can even have without the mods getting upset at me? I definitely have my rationale for why I think it's ok.
people can rationalize all sorts of things. Ot doesn't make them not wrong however.
Hecaton wrote: I mean, is this a conversation I can even have without the mods getting upset at me? I definitely have my rationale for why I think it's ok.
people can rationalize all sorts of things. Ot doesn't make them not wrong however.
Selling recasts is stealing.
So is ripping off parts of other IPs to make your setting.
Hecaton wrote: I mean, is this a conversation I can even have without the mods getting upset at me? I definitely have my rationale for why I think it's ok.
people can rationalize all sorts of things. Ot doesn't make them not wrong however.
Selling recasts is stealing.
So is ripping off parts of other IPs to make your setting.
Mr. Grey wrote: And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.
You’re literally advocating for piracy here. If you feel morally objectionable to GW and any of their business practices, then don’t play their game. Recasts or 3D prints of existing models is piracy. Were you to purchase and use stand in models that someone else created from scratch, that’s different. But please don’t try to justify using recasts or exact prints of existing models as it really is patently theft.
Well when they're able to print a codex with little typos and rules/points that last longer than a couple of months, let me know.
Nice whataboutism there, but it’s still theft. If you don’t like the product, are unhappy with it, or something else, don’t deal with it in any capacity. Advocating for piracy/theft is immoral, illegal, and certainly not a position which will help the game overall in the long run. If you hate the way now, imagine how bad things would be if they lost a massive chunk of revenue due to actual piracy. It certainly wouldn’t be better.
mokoshkana wrote: Nice whataboutism there, but it’s still theft. If you don’t like the product, are unhappy with it, or something else, don’t deal with it in any capacity. Advocating for piracy/theft is immoral, illegal, and certainly not a position which will help the game overall in the long run. If you hate the way now, imagine how bad things would be if they lost a massive chunk of revenue due to actual piracy. It certainly wouldn’t be better.
You'd figure if someone was concerned about being a consumer drone then they'd just wait and save a little longer and buy less frequently instead of buying recasts, because "they have to have it now". It's a little ironic.
Nah, it is the same thing. It's just that people with a corporate serf mentality think that corporations are higher beings and thus can morally steal ideas and designs, but mere people do not have enough worth to be able to do that. It's why Disney has basically seized parts of the global cultural heritage via IP law, by taking classic folk tales and enforcing ownership of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mokoshkana wrote: Nice whataboutism there, but it’s still theft. If you don’t like the product, are unhappy with it, or something else, don’t deal with it in any capacity. Advocating for piracy/theft is immoral, illegal, and certainly not a position which will help the game overall in the long run. If you hate the way now, imagine how bad things would be if they lost a massive chunk of revenue due to actual piracy. It certainly wouldn’t be better.
Competition is usually good for the consumer, not the producer.
Aww gak, i knew this would bite me in the ass someday lol.
I get that piracy is theft. The thing is other industries that were pirated widely in the past adapted their business model to be more customer-friendly.
Music and Movies got put on streaming services when faced with thigns like limewire and thepiratebay. These industries understood that selling overpriced movies/disks wasnt sustainable and they figured out how to fix that problem. Not to say that piracy of these mediums don't exist anymore but they changed something for the better.
GW on the other hand refuses to adapt its miniatures distribution in a way that is customer friendly. If their prices were more reasonable (for example not 120$ for 5 contekar terminators), i wouldn't look for alternatives and i would just buy from GW but these prices are just ridiculous. And for some locale in the world (australia mainly) buying from GW approaches insanity so there is no wonder that its tables are mostly filled with chinese recasts.
Mr. Grey wrote: And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.
So you're totally fine with stealing from designers and sculptors and the business that supports them. Not just fine even, but actually advocating it as the morally superior thing to do. Ok.
Cries at the thought of a £3b company being punished for its greed
Nah, it is the same thing. It's just that people with a corporate serf mentality think that corporations are higher beings and thus can morally steal ideas and designs, but mere people do not have enough worth to be able to do that. It's why Disney has basically seized parts of the global cultural heritage via IP law, by taking classic folk tales and enforcing ownership of them.
Okaaaay. Sure. You've got a superior brain that us sheeple can't possibly comprehend. I guess you hate almost every bit of pop culture from your life, because that is all derived. It's precisely why draconian copy wright laws ( Disney ) are bad.
Since I started the match that lit this gak storm, perhaps I better do something about it.
FIRST OFF: I am not advocating it, nor am I wanting to do it, But I really want to try a Ares, and there is almost nothing that can fit as a "counts as" that I can find. I mean I could just toss a 160mm base down on the ground and call that an Ares, but thats a little TFG isn't it?
If GW didn't have an active ban on non-GW models at their tables, I wouldn't feel bad bringing in my daughter's stuffed unicorn and plopping that gak on the board and proclaiming it an Ares. But again, that is against the rules. And it might be modelling for advantage, I'm not sure what base contact rules are for Mr. Fluffy Hoofs are.
Finally, I know piracy is wrong, but there sure are a lot of glass houses around here, and if you've ever downloaded a song or movie off the internet, then guess what? Call Lazytown, BECAUSE YOU ARE A PIRATE. I know I have broken the strict codes concerning piracy before, which is why I Netflix became so popular. Because it was so cheap and convenient that it basically replaced Pirating movies. If there was a netflix equivalent rule in 40k, where I could pay a monthly subscription, and have access to any model I wanted for a list, I would gladly pay that today. But until they come out with Grimflix for 5.99 a month, I am stuck as proxy "which is TFG bad" or pirating which is morally bad.
Tanks are easy. It's the stuff like Szeras. That kit would be damn hard to print, which also incidentally is the hardest kit I've ever had to build.
I'm still trying to figure out how I'm ever going to transport Szeras ...
I won't even mention how I screwed up his legs and had to hack them at the joint to switch them...gak...
Right. And the "victim" on my Szeras DEFINITELY isn't over-hanging the base by a silly degree ...
I'll put a plug here for the Battlafoam mangaracks with sliding trays. I'm able to transport everything in my 2k Army, including the Silent King in a 750 with 2 sliding mangarack trays.
Thanks! I'll check that out!
Here you go: Main problem is the Ark/Barge right now, but I'm working to get that fixed up with some new bases.
VladimirHerzog wrote: If their prices were more reasonable (for example not 120$ for 5 contekar terminators), i wouldn't look for alternatives and i would just buy from GW but these prices are just ridiculous. And for some locale in the world (australia mainly) buying from GW approaches insanity so there is no wonder that its tables are mostly filled with chinese recasts.
"I don't feel like paying these prices" isn't a great reason for buying recasts, tbh. Maybe save up a little longer? I don't like that a Spartan costs $175, and I don't own one yet because that's a lot of hobby budget, but I'm also not going to get a recast just because I'm not happy about it.
Mr. Grey wrote: And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.
You’re literally advocating for piracy here. If you feel morally objectionable to GW and any of their business practices, then don’t play their game. Recasts or 3D prints of existing models is piracy. Were you to purchase and use stand in models that someone else created from scratch, that’s different. But please don’t try to justify using recasts or exact prints of existing models as it really is patently theft.
Well when they're able to print a codex with little typos and rules/points that last longer than a couple of months, let me know.
Nice whataboutism there, but it’s still theft. If you don’t like the product, are unhappy with it, or something else, don’t deal with it in any capacity. Advocating for piracy/theft is immoral, illegal, and certainly not a position which will help the game overall in the long run. If you hate the way now, imagine how bad things would be if they lost a massive chunk of revenue due to actual piracy. It certainly wouldn’t be better.
And if there were another game I could get going I'd rather do that. However in the meantime, since I can't, until GW can bother to make a codex actually worth the investment no thanks. Feel free to continue defending their garbage practices though because you're happy with it apparently.
Mr. Grey wrote: And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.
I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.
So you're totally fine with stealing from designers and sculptors and the business that supports them. Not just fine even, but actually advocating it as the morally superior thing to do. Ok.
Cries at the thought of a £3b company being punished for its greed
Stealing is stealing, even if you're stealing from entities with a high dollar value.
Hecaton wrote: I mean, is this a conversation I can even have without the mods getting upset at me? I definitely have my rationale for why I think it's ok.
people can rationalize all sorts of things. Ot doesn't make them not wrong however.
Selling recasts is stealing.
So is ripping off parts of other IPs to make your setting.
There is a tremendous difference between derivative work and direct copies. A recast is a direct copy. It couldn't be more of a direct copy, in fact.
When GW buffs an army in edition x to get you to sink money in it, then nerfs it to uselessness in edition y to get you to buy a new army they're basically screwing you over.
When 40k is billed and sold as a wargame, we expect rules written to make it playable and enjoyable as a wargame. Instead we get rules written to make people either buy the army du jour or have little to no chance of winning a game.
I expect in something called a wargame to have a realistic chance to win if i play by the rules, and gw frequently doesn't do this.
Now i know the tired old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right". Well, sometimes one wrong cancels out another, and that's good enough for me.
Nah, it is the same thing. It's just that people with a corporate serf mentality think that corporations are higher beings and thus can morally steal ideas and designs, but mere people do not have enough worth to be able to do that. It's why Disney has basically seized parts of the global cultural heritage via IP law, by taking classic folk tales and enforcing ownership of them.
Lolwut?
Iirc the actual Beauty And The Beast story is public domain. Disney is allowed to hold copyright over specific details of it's particular telling, but you could make a Beauty and the Beast movie without those details and you'd be in the clear, legally speaking.
When 40k is billed and sold as a wargame, we expect rules written to make it playable and enjoyable as a wargame. Instead we get rules written to make people either buy the army du jour or have little to no chance of winning a game
So Harlequins, Custodes, Daemons, and Sisters just got releases the same as Marines and Necrons? That's why they're doing so well?
Well this thread has gone in a direction. Hecaton's take on GW customers is the greatest thing I have read in weeks. No idea what the motive is, but well written!
Iirc the actual Beauty And The Beast story is public domain. Disney is allowed to hold copyright over specific details of it's particular telling, but you could make a Beauty and the Beast movie without those details and you'd be in the clear, legally speaking.
Why should a work be protected for the life of the author plus seventy additional years when we - we meaning the US in this case - used to allow it to expire after 28 years? Disney has literally stolen modern works of folklore from the people by pushing for the ever-expanding length of copyright to further their corporate agenda.
--------
As for the piracy debate:
I'll treat corporations as they treat their workers and customers. As such until businesses stop stealing the product of their worker's labour while giving them back cents on the dollar in return I won't feel bad about piracy, theft, or any other means of extracting extra value from them. Even if you don't buy the argument that work for wage is theft the argument that companies externalize costs and pass them along to everybody without doing the same for profits is irefutible:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: ...But I really want to try a Ares, and there is almost nothing that can fit as a "counts as" that I can find...
Can you not make a rough cardboard proxy and tell the people at your GW store that you want to do a test game or two before dumping $450 on a single miniature?
Just be sure to make it out of cardboard from GW miniature boxes and held together by a framework of GW sprue, that way it is legitimately a conversion made from 100% GW product.
Why should a work be protected for the life of the author plus seventy additional years when we - we meaning the US in this case - used to allow it to expire after 28 years? Disney has literally stolen modern works of folklore from the people by pushing for the ever-expanding length of copyright to further their corporate agenda.
Ever wonder why Disney is pushing crummy live action remakes?
I'll treat corporations as they treat their workers and customers. As such until businesses stop stealing the product of their worker's labour while giving them back cents on the dollar in return I won't feel bad about piracy, theft, or any other means of extracting extra value from them. Even if you don't buy the argument that work for wage is theft the argument that companies externalize costs and pass them along to everybody without doing the same for profits is irefutible:
In short, it is 100% moral to take from companies what you can because they've already amassed a debt that can never be repaid.
Judge, jury, and executioner eh?
GW has carbon footprint awareness and a policy. They also publish their CEO pay against the employees and he makes 26 times the average worker. Compare to the average American CEO makes 271 times the average worker. They're also a significant employer for the local area when they could easily outsource to China.
I'm sure there's a TON more GW could do to make the pay to their workers more equitable, but on the scale of companies they should probably be lower on your target priority.
Yea, yea, this makes me a super white knight or whatever, but facts matter.
Daedalus81 wrote: Ever wonder why Disney is pushing crummy live action remakes?
No, but if I ever have a desire to watch them I'll ensure the profit mongers don't see a single red cent of my money.
Judge, jury, and executioner eh?
GW has carbon footprint awareness and a policy. They also publish their CEO pay against the employees and he makes 26 times the average worker. Compare to the average American CEO makes 271 times the average worker. They're also a significant employer for the local area when they could easily outsource to China.
They have a policy, that means jack unless the policy makes them carbon-neutral or better. I don't just mean technically carbon neutral either, I mean from the harvesting of raw materials to the point where they ship goods to a store I want 0 net carbon emissions from them and every other company. If they can't do that their policy means jack all and simply isn't doing enough to stop the runaway heating of our planet.
The CEO only makes 26 times more than the average worker. I suppose we should bend the knee and kiss his boots for being such a generous soul. I think not.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Just be sure to make it out of cardboard from GW miniature boxes and held together by a framework of GW sprue, that way it is legitimately a conversion made from 100% GW product.
You jest, but the last store owner literally told me "You'd be surprised what a good artist can do with just unused spru bits and glue." My response was" You'd be surprised what a gakky artist can do with a credit card and the internet". I don't understand people who want to rip off a company, but I also don't understand all the White Knighting going on right now for a Corporation that doesn't care about them, AT ALL. Then again, this is Corporate Theory and FOMO 101.
Canadian 5th wrote: ...They have a policy, that means jack unless the policy makes them carbon-neutral or better. I don't just mean technically carbon neutral either, I mean from the harvesting of raw materials to the point where they ship goods to a store I want 0 net carbon emissions from them and every other company. If they can't do that their policy means jack all and simply isn't doing enough to stop the runaway heating of our planet...
NinthMusketeer wrote: Just be sure to make it out of cardboard from GW miniature boxes and held together by a framework of GW sprue, that way it is legitimately a conversion made from 100% GW product.
You jest, but the last store owner literally told me "You'd be surprised what a good artist can do with just unused spru bits and glue." My response was" You'd be surprised what a gakky artist can do with a credit card and the internet". I don't understand people who want to rip off a company, but I also don't understand all the White Knighting going on right now for a Corporation that doesn't care about them, AT ALL. Then again, this is Corporate Theory and FOMO 101.
I don't want to rip off anybody. I want my share of the money that companies suck from the public and funnel into the pockets of shareholders. If companies weren't stealing from the people we'd have so much disposable income we'd not have to consider redressing the balance via the means available to us.
I share your desire for carbon neutral companies. It is something that largely has to come from government though. People will steer the ship until guard rails are put in - no matter what you do they will seek enjoyment and fulfilment in whatever means are available, because, well...they're human.
And had they not gone public they may never have escaped the bounds of the United Kingdom and may well have passed from memory before now. The world isn't a simple construct with easy answers to problems.
Canadian 5th wrote: ...I don't want to rip off anybody. I want my share of the money that companies suck from the public and funnel into the pockets of shareholders. If companies weren't stealing from the people we'd have so much disposable income we'd not have to consider redressing the balance via the means available to us.
I'm not following. If you don't give any money to GW why do you get a share of anything they "suck" from anyone else? If you do give money to GW surely you could get your share back from them by not giving them money instead?
I don't buy 3d printed minis, but as I live in an area where we get our energy from hydroelectric dams with a fixed carbon cost, I'd only have to worry about the footprint of the materials and the printer. I also absolve the consumer of the carbon costs of shipping such items as well as extracting the materials for them as we have no practical alternative to bypass such methods due to the current state of the world and the capitalist states that govern it.
I don't buy 3d printed minis, but as I live in an area where we get our energy from hydroelectric dams with a fixed carbon cost, I'd only have to worry about the footprint of the materials and the printer. I also absolve the consumer of the carbon costs of shipping such items as well as extracting the materials for them as we have no practical alternative to bypass such methods due to the current state of the world and the capitalist states that govern it.
...Does GW have a practical alternative to bypass the carbon costs of getting raw materials or shipping them places?
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm not following. If you don't give any money to GW why do you get a share of anything they "suck" from anyone else? If you do give money to GW surely you could get your share back from them by not giving them money instead?
Even if I never engaged with a GW product they've stolen from me via the unpaid for damage their business does to the environment. This is a cost passed down by companies to every single person on the planet and a cost that no company can or will pay as the articles I've posted above have shown that these companies wouldn't be profitable if they had to fix the damage their existance causes.
AnomanderRake wrote: ...Does GW have a practical alternative to bypass the carbon costs of getting raw materials or shipping them places?
Yes. As a multibillion-dollar corporation, they could choose to invest more heavily in a green shipping and resource extraction pipeline. They could operate in a neutral state - costs equal to income - rather than one of ever-increasing profits and use the extra money to get as close to green as possible. This option is one open to every profitable company and one that they must be encouraged to use until such a time as they can be run sustainably.
They can also release their IP into the public domain, dissolve the company, and leave their physical assets to the workers.
Canadian 5th wrote: ...Even if I never engaged with a GW product they've stolen from me via the unpaid for damage their business does to the environment...
Why "you"? Is the environment "yours"? If you computed the absolute amount of damage GW does to "the environment" and then divided it across the population of the planet how much are they really "stealing" from "you"?
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm not following. If you don't give any money to GW why do you get a share of anything they "suck" from anyone else? If you do give money to GW surely you could get your share back from them by not giving them money instead?
Even if I never engaged with a GW product they've stolen from me via the unpaid for damage their business does to the environment. This is a cost passed down by companies to every single person on the planet and a cost that no company can or will pay as the articles I've posted above have shown that these companies wouldn't be profitable if they had to fix the damage their existance causes.
What about the damage the company who makes your 3d printer and computer that runs ( perhaps the very same one you post from now ) it does? The rare earth metals come from exploited resources. Have you atoned for these or are you communicating through some unknown technology?
AnomanderRake wrote: ...Does GW have a practical alternative to bypass the carbon costs of getting raw materials or shipping them places?
Yes. As a multibillion-dollar corporation, they could choose to invest more heavily in a green shipping and resource extraction pipeline. They could operate in a neutral state - costs equal to income - rather than one of ever-increasing profits and use the extra money to get as close to green as possible. This option is one open to every profitable company and one that they must be encouraged to use until such a time as they can be run sustainably.
You could choose to buy carbon offsets for the stuff you buy, but you've absolved yourself of that responsibility so you can insist it's other peoples' job to figure out the environment. Do you operate in a "neutral state" where your costs are equal to your income?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Canadian 5th wrote: ...They can also release their IP into the public domain, dissolve the company, and leave their physical assets to the workers.
Seems an odd decision to leave the physical assets to the workers while also dramatically devaluing the physical assets they're leaving to the workers. A bit of a "screw you!" alongside "here's some injection moulding machines!"
AnomanderRake wrote: Why "you"? Is the environment "yours"? If you computed the absolute amount of damage GW does to "the environment" and then divided it across the population of the planet how much are they really "stealing" from "you"?
The current cost of fighting climate change is estimated to be ~$5 trillion per year. This ignores things such as the extinction of both flora and fauna, irreversible desertification in places like Africa, wars for profit, the inflation rates that have caused the costs of education and housing to inflate at rates that haven't matched wages, and many other ills that would be nearly impossible to properly price. GW isn't the sole offender nor the worst but we shouldn't give a pass to a petty thief just because they aren't a murderer.
AnomanderRake wrote: ...Does GW have a practical alternative to bypass the carbon costs of getting raw materials or shipping them places?
Yes. As a multibillion-dollar corporation, they could choose to invest more heavily in a green shipping and resource extraction pipeline. They could operate in a neutral state - costs equal to income - rather than one of ever-increasing profits and use the extra money to get as close to green as possible. This option is one open to every profitable company and one that they must be encouraged to use until such a time as they can be run sustainably.
You could choose to buy carbon offsets for the stuff you buy, but you've absolved yourself of that responsibility so you can insist it's other peoples' job to figure out the environment. Do you operate in a "neutral state" where your costs are equal to your income?
Why do you feel the need to try and defend a £3b+ company that couldn't give less of a flying faeces about you?
Daedalus81 wrote: What about the damage the company who makes your 3d printer and computer that runs ( perhaps the very same one you post from now ) it does? The rare earth metals come from exploited resources. Have you atoned for these or are you communicating through some unknown technology?
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism and thus we must absolve the consumer from the effects of their consumption. If there were ethical alternatives then I would feel obligated to use them.
BaconCatBug wrote: ...Why do you feel the need to try and defend a £3b+ company that couldn't give less of a flying faeces about you?
I'm not defending GW, I'm attacking Canadian 5th. GW deserves to be attacked for a tremendous litany of reasons, but "their IP is irrelevant because they're not carbon-neutral/make any profit!" is just stupid. I'm not carbon-neutral, does that mean you can copy anything I write without crediting me with impunity?
AnomanderRake wrote: Seems an odd decision to leave the physical assets to the workers while also dramatically devaluing the physical assets they're leaving to the workers. A bit of a "screw you!" alongside "here's some injection moulding machines!"
There will be issues with returning the means of production to the masses but it's a better solution than shrugging and writing pages of apologia for companies that only exist to sell products and extract wealth from the economy.
AnomanderRake wrote: Seems an odd decision to leave the physical assets to the workers while also dramatically devaluing the physical assets they're leaving to the workers. A bit of a "screw you!" alongside "here's some injection moulding machines!"
There will be issues with returning the means of production to the masses but it's a better solution than shrugging and writing pages of apologia for companies that only exist to sell products and extract wealth from the economy.
What are the workers going to do with the means of production other than extracting wealth from the economy? If there is no economy to extract wealth from why do the workers need injection-moulding machines? They're kind of hard to eat.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm not defending GW, I'm attacking Canadian 5th. GW deserves to be attacked for a tremendous litany of reasons, but "their IP is irrelevant because they're not carbon-neutral/make any profit!" is just stupid. I'm not carbon-neutral, does that mean you can copy anything I write without crediting me with impunity?
Why is existing as a for-profit planet-destroying entity not seen for the insanity that it is? Humanity doesn't have to live this way and has, in fact, done so for only a very short time and yet we have people who act as if this is the natural way of things.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm not defending GW, I'm attacking Canadian 5th. GW deserves to be attacked for a tremendous litany of reasons, but "their IP is irrelevant because they're not carbon-neutral/make any profit!" is just stupid. I'm not carbon-neutral, does that mean you can copy anything I write without crediting me with impunity?
Why is existing as a for-profit planet-destroying entity not seen for the insanity that it is? Humanity doesn't have to live this way and has, in fact, done so for only a very short time and yet we have people who act as if this is the natural way of things.
"Capitalism is inherently planet-destroying!" is a philosophical position, sure. Where I'm losing you is getting from "Capitalism is inherently planet-destroying!" to "I deserve free toys!"
AnomanderRake wrote: Why are you expecting GW to be an ethical consumer of plastic products/transportation services, then?
Because they are not an entity, they are a system designed to maximize profits and minimize costs for the express purpose of providing a select few people with as much excess value as they can extract. Such systems can and should be required to do no harm if they wish to continue their existance.
What are the workers going to do with the means of production other than extracting wealth from the economy? If there is no economy to extract wealth from why do the workers need injection-moulding machines? They're kind of hard to eat.
Injection moulding can be used to make many things that aren't little plastic mean and if not they can always be recycled or simply left to lay fallow while the workers are placed on UBI and paid for not participating in actions that destroy the world.
AnomanderRake wrote: "Capitalism is inherently planet-destroying!" is a philosophical position, sure. Where I'm losing you is getting from "Capitalism is inherently planet-destroying!" to "I deserve free toys!"
If the planet is going to burn and companies are going to play the fiddle why should the common man be denied what pleasures he can have?
Canadian 5th wrote: ...Injection moulding can be used to make many things that aren't little plastic mean and if not they can always be recycled or simply left to lay fallow while the workers are placed on UBI and paid for not participating in actions that destroy the world.
You know, I'm usually the last person to bring this up, I welcome disagreement and alternative opinions, but really, man (/person), why are you here on a wargaming forum trying to convince people that making plastic toy soldiers is destroying the world? Surely there's a more receptive audience somewhere.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Canadian 5th wrote: ...If the planet is going to burn and companies are going to play the fiddle why should the common man be denied what pleasures he can have?
...Your pleasures exist because of capitalism. Or at least the plastic toy soldiers do.
AnomanderRake wrote: You know, I'm usually the last person to bring this up, I welcome disagreement and alternative opinions, but really, man (/person), why are you here on a wargaming forum trying to convince people that making plastic toy soldiers is destroying the world? Surely there's a more receptive audience somewhere.
Because I enjoy the game and the discussions around it, the same as all of you.
...Your pleasures exist because of capitalism. Or at least the plastic toy soldiers do.
Indeed and I could do as well without them. Especially given that the last new models I purchased would have come pre 2010, everything since then has come used and much of that for free.
Sure. Great. The relentless barrage of dogma has been fun, but I'm from Seattle, I get kookier anti-capitalists than you in my breakfast cereal and they all understand economics and intellectual property better than you do. Have fun trying to convince the rest of Dakka that ripping off GW specifically is a righteous crusade to reign in the excesses of capitalism, I'm out.
AnomanderRake wrote: Sure. Great. The relentless barrage of dogma has been fun, but I'm from Seattle, I get kookier anti-capitalists than you in my breakfast cereal and they all understand economics and intellectual property better than you do. Have fun trying to convince the rest of Dakka that ripping off GW specifically is a righteous crusade to reign in the excesses of capitalism, I'm out.
Canadian 5th derails a thread w/odd non sequitur ... must be a day that ends in y ...
So anywho - ‘bout them demons - anyone know if we can summon them? Seems odd that they apparently got removed. I’m fine with summoning from the demon codex if we have to, but if we lost summoning on top of me having to redo my carefully converted BLs, I’m gonna be seriously bummed.
As a private citizen that would likely be impossible. Even if I were to go and live in the woods as a subsistence hunter this isn't something everybody can do as the planet simply cannot sustain us doing so, we demand more efficiency than nature itself can provide. This is the crux of why there cannot be ethical consumption under capitalism, the issue is so vast that it is beyond the scope of any individual to change.
Tycho wrote: Canadian 5th derails a thread w/odd non sequitur ... must be a day that ends in y ...
So anywho - ‘bout them demons - anyone know if we can summon them? Seems odd that they apparently got removed. I’m fine with summoning from the demon codex if we have to, but if we lost summoning on top of me having to redo my carefully converted BLs, I’m gonna be seriously bummed.
I didn't even start the debate about recasts nor was I the first to call out the ethics of such.
As for the daemon summoning, I don't know one way or the other but I hope it both stayed and doesn't break any army bonuses for being used if it did stay. As always I'm for options where they can be accomodated.
@Canadian 5th This is hilarious, what an unbelievably stupid take. GW's supposed emissions in no way justifies stealing their IP and selling it for a profit. The planet is not your property being stolen from you and reason for you to get free stuff. Also workers sell their labor for money, nothing is stolen.
And just to be clear, I buy recasts of oop stuff. It's a service issue on GWs part if they won't sell it anymore and I'll get it wherever I can.
Do you always criticize in bad faith or am I special? I literally mentioned Combi-Weapons in my response, but you had to cut that out to attempt to make a point. 
, just aswell as you won't be getting one for 9 months to a year after the edition changes anyway.
. I'm not concerned with fighting the great eeevil of 
