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 Duskweaver wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
You and others being mildly inconvenienced is not like 1984.

Surely nobody could get upset at a light-hearted reference to a famous work of fiction. I mean, I could understand people being offended if I compared it to the Holocaust, or the Holodomor, or the Armenian Genocide or something like that, even if they recognised I wasn't being entirely serious. But nobody in their right mind would get all defensive and huffy at a reference to a novel. Right?

Clearly, I misunderestimated how humourless and uptight GW white knights can be.

“He gazed up at the enormous Space Marine. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark helmet. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Games Workshop.”

(Also, I'm not actually inconvenienced at all by this, as I don't play DG. I was going to start a DG army. But I'm not now. GW has lost some small amount of revenue from me. But that's all.)

"Oh dear! How sad! Never mind!"

I am not a "white knight", as you put it. The fact that you chose that parlance to describe my position says a lot about you, not me. If you took a minute to look at my post history, you'd see that I am not using GW miniatures for my Guard army's infantry, but rather Wargames Atlantic Einherjar. I have deliberately chosen to take my business to another company, because GW does not provide the miniatures for Squats. My armies of choice - Space Wolves, Ultramarines, and Imperial Guard - are 2/3rds loyalist Marines, yes. But do I think that stuff like Eradicator spam is alright, balance-wise? No, of course not. I disdain such things and avoid them in my army building.

The issue I took with your post was that you compared what I assumed was, for you, a minor problem to a soul-crushingly totalitarian regime. The fact that you could make the leap, again, shows the problem.

 RaptorusRex wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
You and others being mildly inconvenienced is not like 1984.

Surely nobody could get upset at a light-hearted reference to a famous work of fiction. I mean, I could understand people being offended if I compared it to the Holocaust, or the Holodomor, or the Armenian Genocide or something like that, even if they recognised I wasn't being entirely serious. But nobody in their right mind would get all defensive and huffy at a reference to a novel. Right?

Clearly, I misunderestimated how humourless and uptight GW white knights can be.

“He gazed up at the enormous Space Marine. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark helmet. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Games Workshop.”

(Also, I'm not actually inconvenienced at all by this, as I don't play DG. I was going to start a DG army. But I'm not now. GW has lost some small amount of revenue from me. But that's all.)

"Oh dear! How sad! Never mind!"

I am not a "white knight", as you put it. The fact that you chose that parlance to describe my position says a lot about you, not me. If you took a minute to look at my post history, you'd see that I am not using GW miniatures for my Guard army's infantry, but rather Wargames Atlantic Einherjar. I have deliberately chosen to take my business to another company, because GW does not provide the miniatures for Squats. My armies of choice - Space Wolves, Ultramarines, and Imperial Guard - are 2/3rds loyalist Marines, yes. But do I think that stuff like Eradicator spam is alright, balance-wise? No, of course not. I disdain such things and avoid them in my army building.

The issue I took with your post was that you compared what I assumed was, for you, a minor problem to a soul-crushingly totalitarian regime. The fact that you could make the leap, again, shows the problem.

Considering GW frequently depicts soul-crushingly totalitarian regimes, it's a good analogy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


In regards to fairness - the Blightlords kit has four regular combis. There is a fairly small percentage of folks who would buy jewler's saw and then have the knowledge to cast the bits from the sprue to get something that fits the model appropriately. In the present situation If a poor hobbyist buys Blightlords and a rich one buys them and has them painted - they're both still operating under the same guidelines where previously the rich hobbyist could afford the tools and knowledge it takes to make those conversions. I'm not asserting this to be GW's motive. It is just my own thought.

Would the game be massively up-ended by PG PMs? I don't know. I don't have the book to process everything else it has.

I can see that 5 PMs with 3 PG creates a unit that is stupidly great. With Ferric Blight they'll be Intercessors that move and double tap ( bolters ) and have AP4 PGs. That unit would do 4 wounds to Primaris for 135 and Intercessors would do 1 back for 100 points. If Primaris had the same loadout they'd do just about the same damage as with bolters, so....yea. That isn't even considering 1/10 of the book.

So here's my prediction. This book is so fething cool and fun that literally no one is going to give a gak in a month.

In the words of Jim Mora, You don't know. You think you know, but you don't know. You are speculating. And I've done the same, I'm not trying to come at you. But what do real players, really do? I can only speak for myself and what I've done. I certainly would not define myself as "rich", but I am established to the point where a box of guys is not a major purchase. But that does not mean I just throw money (or more importantly, time) away on something I will never use. I'll also point out that Hell Blasters, Scions, and other plasma heavy units have not been espcially dominant on the battlefield to this point.


I missed 4E-7E when "life happened" and came back for 8E when I had more time for hobbies. My old Berzerkers looked pathetic compared to the new stuff, so I made this Primaris sized squad. I chose the Hellblaster kit instead of Intercessors with an eye towards using their plasma guns for something else. A few years later I pick up some DG Termies since I've already got the bits for them.


Obviously I hadn't finished the Termies yet and could still legally do so. I wanted a general purpose, high firepower reserve unit, but I don't really need an "on call" anti infantry unit for my DG army. And I probably won't use them now so those are a waste.

Then I look at my existing squads of Plague Marines like this:


I can rejigger them and have a bunch of TAC squads. I could give some of the guys with axes a mace instead of a knife and do less rejiggering! But all of these models are from 2017 onward. The melee weapons and Blight Launchers did not exist prior to 2017. I had some PMs in the 3E era but they are long gone. Its not 10 or 20 year old models, they are 4 year old models at best. So I hesitate.

It's kind of like an SAT question. If you have one squad with three plasma guns, another squad with one plasma gun and two blight launchers, and another squad with two plasma guns and one blight launcher, which one is better? On "Planet Bowling Ball" it doesn't matter because the guns themselves did not change and everything is always in range of everything. But IRL I prefer a more focused approach in actual play.

Then I ask myself "Will they keep doing this?" and look at my other stuff:



And its like a bomb went off. So I hesitate. The time and money I put into these are now wasted. And I don't just accept it.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.

Speaking only for myself, I'm very unhappy with this decision and what it implies about the future of this hobby. I build/paint/play with what I like, and use the favored numbers even if it is a handicap. I already have a Biologus Putrifier and Plague Surgeon and don't have Mortarion. Maybe you are right and the hobby is better off without me. Maybe I'm a huge outlier. Maybe I'm just a WAAC crybaby to be dismissed. Only you can decide.

So realistically, the units that are going to get totally screwed by this are...


1) HQs. I don't think it's a stretch to say that most HQs have some sort of baked-in stupidity in their plastic kit. Usually they're plodding along on foot, with expensive melee weaponry they never get to make good use of, and often they've got some kind of overly pricy again super short ranged gun that goes along just great with their super slow mobility.

Space marines, obviously, get 15 of each HQ model and get to keep mobility options even when they don't have models for it. Harlequins, GSC, Sisters, and other recent factions are already under the yoke of this garbage and you've got 'fun' stuff like the GSC Primus who has 2 melee weapons 1 of which is always worse in every situation against every target, and who costs as much as a basic marine captain while having the same statline as a guard commander who costs half as much.

Big losers here are going to be Chaos Marines, Drukhari, and Tau IMO. Their kits don't have the options to make the useful builds, so they'll be stuck with their commanders having mismatched crap from now on.

2) Special/Heavy Weapon Squads

If the idiotic convention is carried forward, basically these types of units, Retributors, Havocs, Scourges, you know everything except the Loyalist Marine version of it or anything else GW opts to grandfather in will become a stupid non-choice.

Sure, maybe you can run 1 Haywire Scourge, 1 Blaster Scourge, 1 Dark Lance Scourge, and 1 Heat Lance scourge, but that's going to be pretty much always shittier and less efficient than just using a fething ravager for the job that comes with 3 dark lances on it and even if the scourges were comparably efficient you'd take the ravager anyway because it makes you feel less like an idiot resolving its attacks in 30 seconds instead of 5 minutes.

Realistically, most units in the game won't mind that much. Some might even get needed nerfs out of it, cough cough harlequins please just kill the stupid 5x melta 5 man squad already and limit them to the 2 that come in the box.

But ultimately, this change is asinine. Anyone defending it has Stockholm Syndrome at this point, the fact that an adult was forced to put that Plague Marine Option list to paper in that format and publish it is a bizarre and laughable form of bureaucracy.

Honestly, I think the convention is that monopose models only get options contained within the kit. This is what has caught Plague Marines

More modular models get options specifically designed to be compatible with those kits. This is why Marines don't appear to have been caught.
But keep in mind Primaris units can't build anything not in the kit or on an upgrade sprue.

I think extrapolating Plague Marines to absolutely every box is too far, it's likely limited to their monopose-ness.

I wonder if this will affect the Cadian Command Squad box? It has one of everything, meaning you are basically forced to run an inferior squad.

I wonder if they will do this with other factions. Custodes Guardian squad: Only one model in this unit is allowed to take a storm shield, sort of nonsense.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Honestly, I think the convention is that monopose models only get options contained within the kit. This is what has caught Plague Marines

More modular models get options specifically designed to be compatible with those kits. This is why Marines don't appear to have been caught.
But keep in mind Primaris units can't build anything not in the kit or on an upgrade sprue.

I think extrapolating Plague Marines to absolutely every box is too far, it's likely limited to their monopose-ness.

If only there was some organization that could have come out with a statement explaining why this happened and what it means for the future, before it happened, so there would be no angry surprises...

yukishiro1 wrote:

If only there was some organization that could have come out with a statement explaining why this happened and what it means for the future, before it happened, so there would be no angry surprises...

you again assume that there are people at GW who have known that or are aware of what they are doing
for making a statement explaining what has happend, you need to know what is going on in the first place

and the time were people at GW played their own game is long gone

 Slowroll wrote:

And its like a bomb went off. So I hesitate. The time and money I put into these are now wasted. And I don't just accept it.

this is the basic risk if you start one of the main GW games
for all advantages those games might have you need to consider if this risk is worth it

yet, the Hobby is not just GW games

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Honestly, I think the convention is that monopose models only get options contained within the kit. This is what has caught Plague Marines

More modular models get options specifically designed to be compatible with those kits. This is why Marines don't appear to have been caught.
But keep in mind Primaris units can't build anything not in the kit or on an upgrade sprue.

I think extrapolating Plague Marines to absolutely every box is too far, it's likely limited to their monopose-ness.

Just the fact that this was done to one unit is enough for it to be asinine.

Like, seriously, this unit is THE STARTER BOX unit from the previous edition - can you imagine being a new player that got started, picked Death Guard and picked up your codex and saw that fething word vomit?

Like I'm currently getting into some beardy-ass beardy historical games atm, and that paragraph is a fething nightmare to parse.

It's bad for the health of literally everybody. New players, existing players, everybody.

The simplest way to do this, if GW really really wanted to just limit players to the kit, and wanted to remove the option to kitbash and the advantage for being someone who ebays or kitbashes or whatever, would be this:

-Write a point cost and rule for every weapon option
-Provide a photograph of the bit that is the Official Weapon What Goes With These Here Rules
-State that the unit Plague Marines in Matched Play may only be fielded using the contents of a box of Plague Marines assembled using the instruction booklet, and in Narrative and Open Play anything goes.

 Slowroll wrote:

And its like a bomb went off. So I hesitate. The time and money I put into these are now wasted. And I don't just accept it.

I never, ever said anyone should just accept it.

The thing that gets me are the people lubing them selves up and saying, "Look how slippery this slope is. See all these things that haven't happened yet? Anyone who didn't lube up is a hypocrite!".

It is just the most asinine approach to an issue. Had I made this post I would have phrased it as such, "I'm really disappointed in this change and I think we should collectively contact GW to let them know how we feel". I've made such posts before.

Instead we get people screeching for pages and pages, because it's more fun to be a loudmouthed fearmonger than it is to actually discuss something rationally. I'm pretty convinced most people don't actually read what is written ( though I should bear burden of some of that issue since I don't always temper myself ). If you're not in lock-step with their position you're a white knight or whatever. Apparently I'm pro-marine when I regularly send GW emails like this:



or this :

I already thought we hit this point with the recent HQ choices. Both the Primaris Cpt and Lt have pretty hilarious options. The Canoness is up there as well.

OML The canoness. Isn't it something like:

"Chainsword and bolt pistol."

"If you don't have the chainsword and bolt pistol, you can have a power sword and bolter."

"If you have the powersword and bolter, you can have a rod of command."

"If you have the chainsword and boltpistol, you can replace the chainsword with <stabby bits> and the bolt pistol with <pistoly bits>"

And the Limited Edition model had a plasma pistol molded onto the cape no less a rod of command, and a power sword, also inconveniently molded.

 LunarSol wrote:
I already thought we hit this point with the recent HQ choices. Both the Primaris Cpt and Lt have pretty hilarious options. The Canoness is up there as well.

but people thought those are just leftovers from old-GW and it will never happen to models made by Nu-GW

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
OML The canoness. Isn't it something like:

"Chainsword and bolt pistol."

"If you don't have the chainsword and bolt pistol, you can have a power sword and bolter."

"If you have the powersword and bolter, you can have a rod of command."

"If you have the chainsword and boltpistol, you can replace the chainsword with <stabby bits> and the bolt pistol with <pistoly bits>"

And the Limited Edition model had a plasma pistol molded onto the cape no less a rod of command, and a power sword, also inconveniently molded.

They faq'd the Canoness to replace the mandatory bolter for the Rod of Command with a Plasma Pistol.
Which also means her datasheet now has a weapon profile (the bolter) she can't use, as that was the only way to take a bolter originally

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Slowroll wrote:

And its like a bomb went off. So I hesitate. The time and money I put into these are now wasted. And I don't just accept it.

I never, ever said anyone should just accept it.

The thing that gets me are the people lubing them selves up and saying, "Look how slippery this slope is. See all these things that haven't happened yet? Anyone who didn't lube up is a hypocrite!".

It is just the most asinine approach to an issue. Had I made this post I would have phrased it as such, "I'm really disappointed in this change and I think we should collectively contact GW to let them know how we feel". I've made such posts before.

Instead we get people screeching for pages and pages, because it's more fun to be a loudmouthed fearmonger than it is to actually discuss something rationally. I'm pretty convinced most people don't actually read what is written ( though I should bear burden of some of that issue since I don't always temper myself ). If you're not in lock-step with their position you're a white knight or whatever. Apparently I'm pro-marine when I regularly send GW emails like this:

Spoiler:

or this :

Spoiler:

I think you've got more faith in GW than I do. If you complain about a Codex they've already released, or that they've already written and are starting to tease bits of before releasing, they're not going to FAQ out something they did that was stupid. GW's response to customer complaints is either "wait five years until the next Codex, hope they've forgotten about it by then", or occasionally "burn the whole game down and write a new one that superficially addresses the problem." They'll FAQ things that annoy tournament players slightly faster, but they know that a large portion of the playerbase judges the quality of the game based on tournament winrates and is completely happy with horrific internal balance, periodic squatting of models based purely on which designers don't like each other, the slow strangulation of conversions, and endless bloat piled atop more bloat as long as they can point to a spreadsheet and say "see? every Codex's win rate is between 40% and 60% in our tournament database! the game is great!"

I think you've got more faith in GW than I do. If you complain about a Codex they've already released, or that they've already written and are starting to tease bits of before releasing, they're not going to FAQ out something they did that was stupid. GW's response to customer complaints is either "wait five years until the next Codex, hope they've forgotten about it by then", or occasionally "burn the whole game down and write a new one that superficially addresses the problem." They'll FAQ things that annoy tournament players slightly faster, but they know that a large portion of the playerbase judges the quality of the game based on tournament winrates and is completely happy with horrific internal balance, periodic squatting of models based purely on which designers don't like each other, the slow strangulation of conversions, and endless bloat piled atop more bloat as long as they can point to a spreadsheet and say "see? every Codex's win rate is between 40% and 60% in our tournament database! the game is great!"

Most things I don't expect would change. At least not immediately, but it won't stop me from bugging them. I would say they've made demonstrably more positive changes in the past couple years than through the decade prior to 8th.

The original Necrons book was phoned in so badly. But now they feel like a great army with a lot of viable lists and viable Reanimation. Did it suck to have to wait? Yes. Did they do a great job? Arguably, yes. Given how great Necrons and DG seem to be shaping up they make marines feel pretty boring. Death Guard literally spreading disease? feth yes.

The codex cycle is way faster now too ( which is a double edged sword ).

The reason I play Thousand Sons/Tzeentch is literally because I identify with Tzeentch. Change is life.

The problem with this is what happens if you wait 3-4 years for a codex in hope that the next one will be fixed and good, but it isn't? Wait another 3-4 years, seems insane.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


The thing that gets me are the people lubing them selves up and saying, "Look how slippery this slope is. See all these things that haven't happened yet? Anyone who didn't lube up is a hypocrite!".

It is just the most asinine approach to an issue.

I dunno man, if I had to pick a really obvious logical fallacy to characterize stuff here it's be you making a straw man, not other people making a slippery slope. Saying "this is bad, and if it means it is going to happen to the rest of the game, that'll be bad in the exact same way this is bad" isn't a slippery slope. The fallacy part of the slippery slope argument comes from taking some small and on its own insignificant thing and saying it will lead to all sorts of non-inevitable evils that are different in kind from the original thing you are calling out. Example: "If you let 16 year olds vote, the next thing we know 7 year olds will be allowed to drive tanks while high on heroin!"

Here people aren't saying "are you going to like this when it happens to marines/scourges/havocs!" because they think it's worse when it happens to those than when it happens to DG, they're making an appeal to people to think how they would feel if their units were screwed and made illegal in exactly the same manner DG players' units have been. That's not a slippery slope, and your characterizing it that way is you building up a straw man to beat down.

If you really feel this is as bad as you claim later in the post, this is one of those cases where the wiser thing to do would just have been to say "yeah, I agree, this sucks. I understand why you're upset and we should focus the blame where it belongs, with GW" rather than trying a "but achkstually..."

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Honestly, I think the convention is that monopose models only get options contained within the kit. This is what has caught Plague Marines

More modular models get options specifically designed to be compatible with those kits. This is why Marines don't appear to have been caught.
But keep in mind Primaris units can't build anything not in the kit or on an upgrade sprue.

I think extrapolating Plague Marines to absolutely every box is too far, it's likely limited to their monopose-ness.

I completely agree. The Plague Marine and Blightlord Terminator kits suffer from being monopose kits with no upgrade sprues or designed interchangeability. Other recent armies don't appear to suffer this issue, but have been done the same way:

Adpeta Sororitas: Every single unit option in the Codex is either from a monopose kit/model or is from designed interchangeability. That crazy list of options for the Canoness is 100% the build instructions for the kit or the monopose model from the Army box. The only things not in the Battle Sister box the the squads (Battle Sister, Celestians, Dominons) can take are the Power Maul and Multi-Melta from the Retributor box (and all Retributor options not in the box are in the Battle Sister box). The Repentia Superior has the option to not take a free Bolt Pistol because the Army Box model doesn't have one.

Necrons: All the options are in the box or a monopose model.

Space Marines:
Primaris Marines are 100% out of the box, from monopose models, or are options from the various Primaris upgrade sprues (for Intercessor Sergeants).
Firstborn Marines are a few generations of multi-pose kits with interchangeable parts. Bits from most kits will fit on most other kits with minimal to no effort. So options remain expansive since anyone who's purchased a large number of kits can easily build whatever they want from their bits box.

Is this fair? Not particularly. But it is rather consistent. Hold onto your hats if your codex is coming soon. You should prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
...The reason I play Thousand Sons/Tzeentch is literally because I identify with Tzeentch. Change is life.

Some of the time. Other times change is death. GW's been promising 40k rules for my Cybernetica bots for so long they've now gone through two edition changes and the book's likely never coming given the main studio's dismissive attitude to FW minis. Corsairs? No model, no rules, dead, we don't care how much work you put into converting the army that we published rules for over eight years and three editions. Lerneans? Nope, loyalists get Cataphractii, Chaos can go screw themselves. Sekhmet? Nope, Rubricae have forgotten how to use any weapons not in their kits, no matter how trivial the conversion.

But the unit specific boxes like retributor only have 2 options of each weapon.

Who cares what other boxes there are.. eventually the battle sister box will change/ go away.

Once that happens when will you ever see retibutors on the field as an alternative to exorcists for AT ?

 Argive wrote:
But the unit specific boxes like retributor only have 2 options of each weapon.

Who cares what other boxes there are.. eventually the battle sister box will change/ go away.

Once that happens when will you ever see retibutors on the field as an alternative to exorcists for AT ?

Even the Death Guard units allow you to make maximum-sized squads with the unit options found in of TWO boxes of the unit. I'm not worried about Retributors at all.

So you will be taking 4 multi metlas every ten sisters and the rest with heavy bolters?

 Argive wrote:
So you will be taking 4 multi metlas every ten sisters and the rest with heavy bolters?

Considering GW planned for the Battle Sister Box to cover Battle Sister Squads, Celestian Squads, Dominion Squads, and the bolter-sister of Retributor Squads... not very likely.

An in that case, the rules would be for every 5 models in the squad you can take 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Heavy Flamers, 2 Multi-Meltas, and one with a Sister Superior load out (no way to assemble that model without a melee weapon). Still not worried about this happening. If it does, I'll adjust.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Here people aren't saying "are you going to like this when it happens to marines/scourges/havocs!" because they think it's worse when it happens to those than when it happens to DG, they're making an appeal to people to think how they would feel if their units were screwed and made illegal in exactly the same manner DG players' units have been. That's not a slippery slope, and your characterizing it that way is you building up a straw man to beat down.

Some do. I don't really comment on decent posts ( I am no angel ). Accusing people of being battered wives? Referencing a totalitarian regime? Inferences that this is "yet another cash grab"? And still ignore units that don't exist in the very same book that breaks the logic.

So, yes, this is not great. People should voice their opinion. At the same time GW shouldn't be beholden to a mob and should be able to make *appropriate* changes. These may not be appropriate.

I highly doubt this would ever happen again so I don't see the need to worry, because if it does the community would *really* lose its mind. So if it does happen ( to an infantry kit, because this happens fairly often ) I'll make a free raffle for people in this thread and buy the winner an infantry box of their choice.

However, as a result, no one is allowed to complain that kits don't come with all the options, because clearly everyone is really good at converting their models and it is super important to them. ( That's a bit tongue in cheek )

If you really feel this is as bad as you claim later in the post, this is one of those cases where the wiser thing to do would just have been to say "yeah, I agree, this sucks. I understand why you're upset and we should focus the blame where it belongs, with GW" rather than trying a "but achkstually..."

Sure, fair. And I know I react to certain posters, because we have "history" and people are pretty loose about coming after me, but I'm not blaming. I get that I, too, take hard stances that people don't like. I should tone down my posts and interact more thoughtfully, which is projection, because I see others not acting thoughtfully and I get all bitchy.

So, I apologize for grief I have caused. I'll work on that. I might not always be successful.

 alextroy wrote:
[

Space Marines:
Primaris Marines are 100% out of the box, from monopose models, or are options from the various Primaris upgrade sprues (for Intercessor Sergeants).

So I assume the Eradicator kit will come with a MM?

 alextroy wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So you will be taking 4 multi metlas every ten sisters and the rest with heavy bolters?

Considering GW planned for the Battle Sister Box to cover Battle Sister Squads, Celestian Squads, Dominion Squads, and the bolter-sister of Retributor Squads... not very likely.

An in that case, the rules would be for every 5 models in the squad you can take 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Heavy Flamers, 2 Multi-Meltas, and one with a Sister Superior load out (no way to assemble that model without a melee weapon). Still not worried about this happening. If it does, I'll adjust.

I have no doubt you will adjust. You seem like a reasonable person.
And I'm sure everyone else will adjust too.. But why should you have to? It just sucks.. The idea sucks..

The whole point I'm really trying to make is, that for your sake, and everyone else sake that could potentially have to endure this, is that I really hope the adjustment will not turn out to be: Not using the unit coz it crap now because of what comes in the box...

 Argive wrote:

And I'm sure everyone else will adjust too.. But why should you have to? It just sucks.. The idea sucks..

because you want to be part of the GW-Hobby

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

Here people aren't saying "are you going to like this when it happens to marines/scourges/havocs!" because they think it's worse when it happens to those than when it happens to DG, they're making an appeal to people to think how they would feel if their units were screwed and made illegal in exactly the same manner DG players' units have been. That's not a slippery slope, and your characterizing it that way is you building up a straw man to beat down.

Some do. I don't really comment on decent posts ( I am no angel ). Accusing people of being battered wives? Referencing a totalitarian regime? Inferences that this is "yet another cash grab"? And still ignore units that don't exist in the very same book that breaks the logic.

So, yes, this is not great. People should voice their opinion. At the same time GW shouldn't be beholden to a mob and should be able to make *appropriate* changes. These may not be appropriate.

I highly doubt this would ever happen again so I don't see the need to worry, because if it does the community would *really* lose its mind. So if it does happen ( to an infantry kit, because this happens fairly often ) I'll make a free raffle for people in this thread and buy the winner an infantry box of their choice.

However, as a result, no one is allowed to complain that kits don't come with all the options, because clearly everyone is really good at converting their models and it is super important to them. ( That's a bit tongue in cheek )

If you really feel this is as bad as you claim later in the post, this is one of those cases where the wiser thing to do would just have been to say "yeah, I agree, this sucks. I understand why you're upset and we should focus the blame where it belongs, with GW" rather than trying a "but achkstually..."

Sure, fair. And I know I react to certain posters, because we have "history" and people are pretty loose about coming after me, but I'm not blaming. I get that I, too, take hard stances that people don't like. I should tone down my posts and interact more thoughtfully, which is projection, because I see others not acting thoughtfully and I get all bitchy.

So, I apologize for grief I have caused. I'll work on that. I might not always be successful.

Hey...no fair. You're not supposed to react that sensibly! What gives? Now I can't be annoyed at you any more.

 alextroy wrote:

 Argive wrote:
But the unit specific boxes like retributor only have 2 options of each weapon.

Who cares what other boxes there are.. eventually the battle sister box will change/ go away.

Once that happens when will you ever see retibutors on the field as an alternative to exorcists for AT ?

Even the Death Guard units allow you to make maximum-sized squads with the unit options found in of TWO boxes of the unit. I'm not worried about Retributors at all.

With that logic they had no reason to not let you take say 2 plasmas at 7 man or 2 blight launchers at 7 man, as really that is perfectly easy to do with 2 boxes yeah ? No, instead it somehow makes more sense to buy 2 boxes, have wasted minis and take a belcher, 2 plasmas and 2 blight launchers in 10 man ? That is a completely dumb idea. It feels like it's only there to hose old set ups for no real touch on balance or ease of purchases.

Deathwatch teams can have tons of every weapon under the sun in their squads, combis, heavy bolters , missile launchers, 4 frag cannons, more items than you can shake a stick at and most of them don't come in the kit, or it comes with like 1 copy of it. No, I don't want DW to loose their options but really that is a way more wild set up of random things than a fiendish 2 of the same special weapon in less than 10 men for DG or multiple of the same combi in BL units when making them is relatively easy or bit trading isn't super hard.

If DG end up an outlier, it'll just feel extra punitive for no real reason. If they aren't singled out and other units will suffer even worse. ( Scourges, I already fear for their treatment ). This is silly, and should be given some heavy levels of static. Options are a good thing. I'd really like if we all keep them.