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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
You’re literally advocating for piracy here. If you feel morally objectionable to GW and any of their business practices, then don’t play their game. Recasts or 3D prints of existing models is piracy. Were you to purchase and use stand in models that someone else created from scratch, that’s different. But please don’t try to justify using recasts or exact prints of existing models as it really is patently theft.

Yes.jpeg

Low IQ take right there...

Hecaton wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.

I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.

I wonder with what justification the illegal recasting / 3d printing is morally ok.
It's plain stealing / piracy and people claiming otherwise are just trying to justify what they are doing.
Thats like shoplifting and saying it's pricey so it's ok.

If anyone wants to do that, where is the line?
Recasting?
Shoplifting?
Pickpocketing?
Robbery?


I know it's becoming more and more popular, but for me it's still a no-go.
Also the argument of a "victimless crime" is nonsense, because it isn't.

I mean, is this a conversation I can even have without the mods getting upset at me? I definitely have my rationale for why I think it's ok.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.

I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.

You’re literally advocating for piracy here. If you feel morally objectionable to GW and any of their business practices, then don’t play their game. Recasts or 3D prints of existing models is piracy. Were you to purchase and use stand in models that someone else created from scratch, that’s different. But please don’t try to justify using recasts or exact prints of existing models as it really is patently theft.

Well when they're able to print a codex with little typos and rules/points that last longer than a couple of months, let me know.

Hecaton wrote:
I mean, is this a conversation I can even have without the mods getting upset at me? I definitely have my rationale for why I think it's ok.

people can rationalize all sorts of things. Ot doesn't make them not wrong however.

Selling recasts is stealing.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I mean, is this a conversation I can even have without the mods getting upset at me? I definitely have my rationale for why I think it's ok.

people can rationalize all sorts of things. Ot doesn't make them not wrong however.

Selling recasts is stealing.

So is ripping off parts of other IPs to make your setting.

Hecaton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I mean, is this a conversation I can even have without the mods getting upset at me? I definitely have my rationale for why I think it's ok.

people can rationalize all sorts of things. Ot doesn't make them not wrong however.

Selling recasts is stealing.

So is ripping off parts of other IPs to make your setting.

Yea, no. That's not the same thing.

https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.

I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.

You’re literally advocating for piracy here. If you feel morally objectionable to GW and any of their business practices, then don’t play their game. Recasts or 3D prints of existing models is piracy. Were you to purchase and use stand in models that someone else created from scratch, that’s different. But please don’t try to justify using recasts or exact prints of existing models as it really is patently theft.

Well when they're able to print a codex with little typos and rules/points that last longer than a couple of months, let me know.

Nice whataboutism there, but it’s still theft. If you don’t like the product, are unhappy with it, or something else, don’t deal with it in any capacity. Advocating for piracy/theft is immoral, illegal, and certainly not a position which will help the game overall in the long run. If you hate the way now, imagine how bad things would be if they lost a massive chunk of revenue due to actual piracy. It certainly wouldn’t be better.

 mokoshkana wrote:
Nice whataboutism there, but it’s still theft. If you don’t like the product, are unhappy with it, or something else, don’t deal with it in any capacity. Advocating for piracy/theft is immoral, illegal, and certainly not a position which will help the game overall in the long run. If you hate the way now, imagine how bad things would be if they lost a massive chunk of revenue due to actual piracy. It certainly wouldn’t be better.

You'd figure if someone was concerned about being a consumer drone then they'd just wait and save a little longer and buy less frequently instead of buying recasts, because "they have to have it now". It's a little ironic.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Yea, no. That's not the same thing.

https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series

Nah, it is the same thing. It's just that people with a corporate serf mentality think that corporations are higher beings and thus can morally steal ideas and designs, but mere people do not have enough worth to be able to do that. It's why Disney has basically seized parts of the global cultural heritage via IP law, by taking classic folk tales and enforcing ownership of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Nice whataboutism there, but it’s still theft. If you don’t like the product, are unhappy with it, or something else, don’t deal with it in any capacity. Advocating for piracy/theft is immoral, illegal, and certainly not a position which will help the game overall in the long run. If you hate the way now, imagine how bad things would be if they lost a massive chunk of revenue due to actual piracy. It certainly wouldn’t be better.

Competition is usually good for the consumer, not the producer.

 mokoshkana wrote:
Low IQ take right there...

Aww gak, i knew this would bite me in the ass someday lol.

I get that piracy is theft. The thing is other industries that were pirated widely in the past adapted their business model to be more customer-friendly.

Music and Movies got put on streaming services when faced with thigns like limewire and thepiratebay. These industries understood that selling overpriced movies/disks wasnt sustainable and they figured out how to fix that problem. Not to say that piracy of these mediums don't exist anymore but they changed something for the better.

GW on the other hand refuses to adapt its miniatures distribution in a way that is customer friendly. If their prices were more reasonable (for example not 120$ for 5 contekar terminators), i wouldn't look for alternatives and i would just buy from GW but these prices are just ridiculous. And for some locale in the world (australia mainly) buying from GW approaches insanity so there is no wonder that its tables are mostly filled with chinese recasts.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.

I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.

So you're totally fine with stealing from designers and sculptors and the business that supports them. Not just fine even, but actually advocating it as the morally superior thing to do. Ok.

Cries at the thought of a £3b company being punished for its greed

Hecaton wrote:


Nah, it is the same thing. It's just that people with a corporate serf mentality think that corporations are higher beings and thus can morally steal ideas and designs, but mere people do not have enough worth to be able to do that. It's why Disney has basically seized parts of the global cultural heritage via IP law, by taking classic folk tales and enforcing ownership of them.

Okaaaay. Sure. You've got a superior brain that us sheeple can't possibly comprehend. I guess you hate almost every bit of pop culture from your life, because that is all derived. It's precisely why draconian copy wright laws ( Disney ) are bad.

Since I started the match that lit this gak storm, perhaps I better do something about it.

FIRST OFF: I am not advocating it, nor am I wanting to do it, But I really want to try a Ares, and there is almost nothing that can fit as a "counts as" that I can find. I mean I could just toss a 160mm base down on the ground and call that an Ares, but thats a little TFG isn't it?

If GW didn't have an active ban on non-GW models at their tables, I wouldn't feel bad bringing in my daughter's stuffed unicorn and plopping that gak on the board and proclaiming it an Ares. But again, that is against the rules. And it might be modelling for advantage, I'm not sure what base contact rules are for Mr. Fluffy Hoofs are.

Finally, I know piracy is wrong, but there sure are a lot of glass houses around here, and if you've ever downloaded a song or movie off the internet, then guess what? Call Lazytown, BECAUSE YOU ARE A PIRATE. I know I have broken the strict codes concerning piracy before, which is why I Netflix became so popular. Because it was so cheap and convenient that it basically replaced Pirating movies. If there was a netflix equivalent rule in 40k, where I could pay a monthly subscription, and have access to any model I wanted for a list, I would gladly pay that today. But until they come out with Grimflix for 5.99 a month, I am stuck as proxy "which is TFG bad" or pirating which is morally bad.

Tycho wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Tanks are easy. It's the stuff like Szeras. That kit would be damn hard to print, which also incidentally is the hardest kit I've ever had to build.

I'm still trying to figure out how I'm ever going to transport Szeras ...

I won't even mention how I screwed up his legs and had to hack them at the joint to switch them...gak...

Right. And the "victim" on my Szeras DEFINITELY isn't over-hanging the base by a silly degree ...

I'll put a plug here for the Battlafoam mangaracks with sliding trays. I'm able to transport everything in my 2k Army, including the Silent King in a 750 with 2 sliding mangarack trays.

Thanks! I'll check that out!

Here you go: Main problem is the Ark/Barge right now, but I'm working to get that fixed up with some new bases.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
If their prices were more reasonable (for example not 120$ for 5 contekar terminators), i wouldn't look for alternatives and i would just buy from GW but these prices are just ridiculous. And for some locale in the world (australia mainly) buying from GW approaches insanity so there is no wonder that its tables are mostly filled with chinese recasts.

"I don't feel like paying these prices" isn't a great reason for buying recasts, tbh. Maybe save up a little longer? I don't like that a Spartan costs $175, and I don't own one yet because that's a lot of hobby budget, but I'm also not going to get a recast just because I'm not happy about it.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.

I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.

You’re literally advocating for piracy here. If you feel morally objectionable to GW and any of their business practices, then don’t play their game. Recasts or 3D prints of existing models is piracy. Were you to purchase and use stand in models that someone else created from scratch, that’s different. But please don’t try to justify using recasts or exact prints of existing models as it really is patently theft.

Well when they're able to print a codex with little typos and rules/points that last longer than a couple of months, let me know.

Nice whataboutism there, but it’s still theft. If you don’t like the product, are unhappy with it, or something else, don’t deal with it in any capacity. Advocating for piracy/theft is immoral, illegal, and certainly not a position which will help the game overall in the long run. If you hate the way now, imagine how bad things would be if they lost a massive chunk of revenue due to actual piracy. It certainly wouldn’t be better.

And if there were another game I could get going I'd rather do that. However in the meantime, since I can't, until GW can bother to make a codex actually worth the investment no thanks. Feel free to continue defending their garbage practices though because you're happy with it apparently.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
And really, showing up at an official GW store with recast or 3d printed GW or FW models is a pretty crap move. At that point you're also getting into the whole "are recasts ok?" argument - which, I'm gonna be pretty freaking blunt here - if you're 3d printing or recasting exact copies of existing, current minis that a company produces just because you don't like the price the company sets - then eff off.

I strongly disagree. I feel like, in a lot of cases, recasts/3d prints are more morally justifiable than buying the actual model. But then again, I don't view the highest state of existence I can aspire to as a consumer drone.

So you're totally fine with stealing from designers and sculptors and the business that supports them. Not just fine even, but actually advocating it as the morally superior thing to do. Ok.

Cries at the thought of a £3b company being punished for its greed

Stealing is stealing, even if you're stealing from entities with a high dollar value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I mean, is this a conversation I can even have without the mods getting upset at me? I definitely have my rationale for why I think it's ok.

people can rationalize all sorts of things. Ot doesn't make them not wrong however.

Selling recasts is stealing.

So is ripping off parts of other IPs to make your setting.

There is a tremendous difference between derivative work and direct copies. A recast is a direct copy. It couldn't be more of a direct copy, in fact.

When GW buffs an army in edition x to get you to sink money in it, then nerfs it to uselessness in edition y to get you to buy a new army they're basically screwing you over.

When 40k is billed and sold as a wargame, we expect rules written to make it playable and enjoyable as a wargame. Instead we get rules written to make people either buy the army du jour or have little to no chance of winning a game.

I expect in something called a wargame to have a realistic chance to win if i play by the rules, and gw frequently doesn't do this.

Now i know the tired old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right". Well, sometimes one wrong cancels out another, and that's good enough for me.

Hecaton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Yea, no. That's not the same thing.

https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series

Nah, it is the same thing. It's just that people with a corporate serf mentality think that corporations are higher beings and thus can morally steal ideas and designs, but mere people do not have enough worth to be able to do that. It's why Disney has basically seized parts of the global cultural heritage via IP law, by taking classic folk tales and enforcing ownership of them.

Lolwut?

Iirc the actual Beauty And The Beast story is public domain. Disney is allowed to hold copyright over specific details of it's particular telling, but you could make a Beauty and the Beast movie without those details and you'd be in the clear, legally speaking.

So I have an actual codex related question- It sounds like they removed all the demon entries- anyone know if we can still summon at all?

 Matt Swain wrote:


When 40k is billed and sold as a wargame, we expect rules written to make it playable and enjoyable as a wargame. Instead we get rules written to make people either buy the army du jour or have little to no chance of winning a game

So Harlequins, Custodes, Daemons, and Sisters just got releases the same as Marines and Necrons? That's why they're doing so well?

Well this thread has gone in a direction. Hecaton's take on GW customers is the greatest thing I have read in weeks. No idea what the motive is, but well written!

 Insectum7 wrote:
Lolwut?

Iirc the actual Beauty And The Beast story is public domain. Disney is allowed to hold copyright over specific details of it's particular telling, but you could make a Beauty and the Beast movie without those details and you'd be in the clear, legally speaking.

Why should a work be protected for the life of the author plus seventy additional years when we - we meaning the US in this case - used to allow it to expire after 28 years? Disney has literally stolen modern works of folklore from the people by pushing for the ever-expanding length of copyright to further their corporate agenda.

--------

As for the piracy debate:

I'll treat corporations as they treat their workers and customers. As such until businesses stop stealing the product of their worker's labour while giving them back cents on the dollar in return I won't feel bad about piracy, theft, or any other means of extracting extra value from them. Even if you don't buy the argument that work for wage is theft the argument that companies externalize costs and pass them along to everybody without doing the same for profits is irefutible:

https://news.mongabay.com/2013/04/what-if-companies-actually-had-to-compensate-society-for-environmental-destruction/#:~:text=Economists%20call%20this%20process%20%E2%80%9Cexternalizing,the%20companies%20that%20cause%20it.&text=Just%20as%20importantly%2C%20the%20study,accounted%20for%20their%20natural%20capital.

http://www.planetexperts.com/companies-pay-environmental-damage/

In short, it is 100% moral to take from companies what you can because they've already amassed a debt that can never be repaid.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
...But I really want to try a Ares, and there is almost nothing that can fit as a "counts as" that I can find...

Can you not make a rough cardboard proxy and tell the people at your GW store that you want to do a test game or two before dumping $450 on a single miniature?

Just be sure to make it out of cardboard from GW miniature boxes and held together by a framework of GW sprue, that way it is legitimately a conversion made from 100% GW product.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Why should a work be protected for the life of the author plus seventy additional years when we - we meaning the US in this case - used to allow it to expire after 28 years? Disney has literally stolen modern works of folklore from the people by pushing for the ever-expanding length of copyright to further their corporate agenda.

Ever wonder why Disney is pushing crummy live action remakes?

I'll treat corporations as they treat their workers and customers. As such until businesses stop stealing the product of their worker's labour while giving them back cents on the dollar in return I won't feel bad about piracy, theft, or any other means of extracting extra value from them. Even if you don't buy the argument that work for wage is theft the argument that companies externalize costs and pass them along to everybody without doing the same for profits is irefutible:

https://news.mongabay.com/2013/04/what-if-companies-actually-had-to-compensate-society-for-environmental-destruction/#:~:text=Economists%20call%20this%20process%20%E2%80%9Cexternalizing,the%20companies%20that%20cause%20it.&text=Just%20as%20importantly%2C%20the%20study,accounted%20for%20their%20natural%20capital.

http://www.planetexperts.com/companies-pay-environmental-damage/

In short, it is 100% moral to take from companies what you can because they've already amassed a debt that can never be repaid.

Judge, jury, and executioner eh?

GW has carbon footprint awareness and a policy. They also publish their CEO pay against the employees and he makes 26 times the average worker. Compare to the average American CEO makes 271 times the average worker. They're also a significant employer for the local area when they could easily outsource to China.

I'm sure there's a TON more GW could do to make the pay to their workers more equitable, but on the scale of companies they should probably be lower on your target priority.

Yea, yea, this makes me a super white knight or whatever, but facts matter.

Well guess he needs to cut his pay to hire some competent designers and editors then.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well guess he needs to cut his pay to hire some competent designers and editors then.

Well they could stop paying so much to shareholders, but I don't think that would go over well with the board.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ever wonder why Disney is pushing crummy live action remakes?

No, but if I ever have a desire to watch them I'll ensure the profit mongers don't see a single red cent of my money.

Judge, jury, and executioner eh?

GW has carbon footprint awareness and a policy. They also publish their CEO pay against the employees and he makes 26 times the average worker. Compare to the average American CEO makes 271 times the average worker. They're also a significant employer for the local area when they could easily outsource to China.

They have a policy, that means jack unless the policy makes them carbon-neutral or better. I don't just mean technically carbon neutral either, I mean from the harvesting of raw materials to the point where they ship goods to a store I want 0 net carbon emissions from them and every other company. If they can't do that their policy means jack all and simply isn't doing enough to stop the runaway heating of our planet.

The CEO only makes 26 times more than the average worker. I suppose we should bend the knee and kiss his boots for being such a generous soul. I think not.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well guess he needs to cut his pay to hire some competent designers and editors then.

Well they could stop paying so much to shareholders, but I don't think that would go over well with the board.

Nobody forced them to go public so they have naught but themselves to blame for any issues that may cause.