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Rumbleguts wrote:
I wonder if they will remove twin linked devourer's from the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex.

Depends on whether FW will continue to sell it. If it goes to Last Chance to Buy then my bet would be it is going to be removed.

Plus the Flyrant is a bit weird. It has a lot of options that aren't available in the box or just don't fit onto the model itself. I mean, there is only one slot for a pair that you can put the devourers(twin or not), but if you want to Rending Claws as well you either have to tell your opponent that the thing on the wing or their leg is a Rending Claw or do some weird conversion that looks awful most of the time.

I would bet the Flyrant is going to see some changes in the next codex unless GW does a 180° on this move.


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Karol wrote:
Didn't fantasy just died, because GW hiked the prices so high for an army, that the army buying started to be mostly focused around secondary market, 3ed party companies and stuff like that.
I didn't play when fantasy was a thing, but I heard that it was practicaly impossible for a new player to join, because the regular game was pointed at so many points, they stopped getting any new player. And general horror stories like 5 boxs to make one unit and you needed 3 such units etc.

You also needed a lot of models and a lot of the same models repeatedly(rank and file) for 2500-3000(which was a popular point size where I am from) which meant that getting into the game was too much for new players. This is something GW seems to want to remedy with the new game sizes.

I feel WHFB died because GW basically made it so you had blobs of 30-40 models or you had redirectors/chaff, and most things in the middle were pointless/obviously bad. (Not entirely true, some monsters etc saw play but internet hyperbole etc.)

So prospective new players would try and join a community, be told they needed 40 Halberdiers to start an Empire Army and decide that sounds like a lot of money and time so not bother.

I don't think armies were more expensive than 40k. Its just they had made the rules such that having 10 of an infantry unit - even relatively elite ones - was almost pointless.

 kodos wrote:
if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue
there is no way out, GW won't change, either except it or leave

How have people been able to equip Intercessors, Helblasters, or Reivers? Has the equipment available to Intercessors changed since their launch?
How have people been able to equip CSM Terminators, Havocs? Did both these kits lose or gain options?
Did we get lasfusil Eliminators right away?
Did Incubi gain or lose options in PA?
What about Necron Warriors?

Plague Marines are the same 7 guys from the box set recut onto their own sprue. Blightlords came right at the very start of the edition and to me it feels like they rushed them out the door.

The fact of the matter is that there are more instances of options being added then there are being removed, but here we are capitalizing on one odd instance of removal and another that is sort of a removal, but feels more like a restructure.

If you want to infer a strategy then I would think it is this - push out super cheap starter boxes with limited options and then sell an updated kit in the future with more bells and whistles. Who expects Outriders to always be as bland as they are?

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

What context? You're the one that brought up slippery slope to a situation that has LITERALLY happened. I posted the pictures for the Plague Marine and Blightlord options. What more context do you really want?

Slippery slope infers future action, which is what people did. "If GW removes options here then all our other kits will have options removed".

Its a perspective that pretty much ignores everything else around it to make a case of fear mongering when all people had to do was step back a second and look at what has changed ( or not ) during 8th.

 kodos wrote:

if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue

On playing their games: I have the internet. I have a shelf full of previous editions. I don't have to spend a dime on their rules...

On buying models: I'll stop buying stuff from GW when they stop making models I like. It's just that simple.

Rumbleguts wrote:
I wonder if they will remove twin linked devourer's from the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex.

The Carnifex still has the devourers in its box, so I don't think it will lose any options.

The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue
there is no way out, GW won't change, either except it or leave

How have people been able to equip Intercessors, Helblasters, or Reivers? Has the equipment available to Intercessors changed since their launch?
How have people been able to equip CSM Terminators, Havocs? Did both these kits lose or gain options?
Did we get lasfusil Eliminators right away?
Did Incubi gain or lose options in PA?
What about Necron Warriors?

Plague Marines are the same 7 guys from the box set recut onto their own sprue. Blightlords came right at the very start of the edition and to me it feels like they rushed them out the door.

The fact of the matter is that there are more instances of options being added then there are being removed, but here we are capitalizing on one odd instance of removal and another that is sort of a removal, but feels more like a restructure.

If you want to infer a strategy then I would think it is this - push out super cheap starter boxes with limited options and then sell an updated kit in the future with more bells and whistles. Who expects Outriders to always be as bland as they are?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

What context? You're the one that brought up slippery slope to a situation that has LITERALLY happened. I posted the pictures for the Plague Marine and Blightlord options. What more context do you really want?

Slippery slope infers future action, which is what people did. "If GW removes options here then all our other kits will have options removed".

Its a perspective that pretty much ignores everything else around it to make a case of fear mongering when all people had to do was step back a second and look at what has changed ( or not ) during 8th.

Well I've been calling this a problem since Deathwatch had their ridiculous options regarding Dreads and Chaplains, and look what happened now. Some units get everything they want and others are left in the dust for nonsensical reasons. So this slippery slope is a problem NOW if we don't deal with it.

The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.

Maybe? Marines didn't lose anything did they? If this were to be more widespread, surely Space marine devastators and terminators would have had to deal with the same restrictions right?

Tycho wrote:

The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.

Maybe? Marines didn't lose anything did they? If this were to be more widespread, surely Space marine devastators and terminators would have had to deal with the same restrictions right?

Hopefully this is a one-of that they will revert after seeing the mountain of emails they received.

Tycho wrote:

The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.

Maybe? Marines didn't lose anything did they? If this were to be more widespread, surely Space marine devastators and terminators would have had to deal with the same restrictions right?

Didn't Space Marines lost all their HQs on bikes? there are 21 pages of Space Marines datasheets in their Legends page after all.

ccs wrote:

 kodos wrote:

if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue

On playing their games: I have the internet. I have a shelf full of previous editions. I don't have to spend a dime on their rules...

On buying models: I'll stop buying stuff from GW when they stop making models I like. It's just that simple.

Problem is, playing their game means advertising it to others and get others into means people buy stuff
and the more people play, the more people start playing and GW sees that their Business Strategy (change for the sake of change to get people buying more) works

Tycho wrote:

The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.

Maybe? Marines didn't lose anything did they? If this were to be more widespread, surely Space marine devastators and terminators would have had to deal with the same restrictions right?

I think that's a large part of the problem lots of the people still awaiting their 9th edition codex's etc don't trust GW not to F them overn with good reason i might add.

Drukari how many times did they suddenly find models vanish?
Choas Marines how often have they payed loyalist points for not loyalist rules since 8th started?
GSC we designed your book to work doing X oh no-one likes playing against X we will just change the rules to ban X

TAU yeah your army totally doesn't need a new codex for 9th , just aswell as you won't be getting one for 9 months to a year after the edition changes anyway.

Yeah, Space Marines definitely lost options where you couldn't buy them from GW or kitbash them from bits you bought from GW.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Yeah, Space Marines definitely lost options where you couldn't buy them from GW or kitbash them from bits you bought from GW.

I think you'll find marine's atleast got legends rules for 95% of the models that were removed from the codex. I can say for certain that didn't happen for other factions.
Especially anything FW.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue
there is no way out, GW won't change, either except it or leave

How have people been able to equip Intercessors, Helblasters, or Reivers? Has the equipment available to Intercessors changed since their launch?
How have people been able to equip CSM Terminators, Havocs? Did both these kits lose or gain options?
Did we get lasfusil Eliminators right away?
Did Incubi gain or lose options in PA?
What about Necron Warriors?.

lets talk about DW, SW and BA

and for Necrons, 10€ that it will happen with the next Codex or with mid-Edition CA, depending on sales

guess is that DG made decent money in last Edition but sales were decreasing, meaning everyone you wants them has some already and as most people drop out after 2 Editions, the last chance for big money on current collections
so change in power and equipment to make the most and get people buying the new boxes

Hopefully this is a one-of that they will revert after seeing the mountain of emails they received.

For now, I'm chalking it up to that age old problem of codex writers apparently working in solitary confinement, and the second whomever wrote the marine dex gets a hold of this dex they'll say "Wait .. you did what? No, no, got to change that!"

Didn't Space Marines lost all their HQs on bikes? there are 21 pages of Space Marines datasheets in their Legends page after all.

That's not what this is though. That's not apples-to-apples imo. Squatting OOP models is totally different. They still make plasmas etc. There just aren't enough in the box. So in this comparison, it's the same as looking at Devastators and saying "since you can't get 5 grav cannons in the kit, 5 Grav cannons is no longer a legal build". Ditto the combi weapons in the Marine terminator kit if I am remembering correctly. But ... they didn't do that. So ....

I see no reason to play 9th with what happend to Wolves as I am not in the mood to re-work every single unit I have to get a playable list

Tycho wrote:

That's not what this is though. That's not apples-to-apples imo. Squatting OOP models is totally different. They still make plasmas etc. There just aren't enough in the box. So in this comparison, it's the same as looking at Devastators and saying "since you can't get 5 grav cannons in the kit, 5 Grav cannons is no longer a legal build". Ditto the combi weapons in the Marine terminator kit if I am remembering correctly. But ... they didn't do that. So ....

And yet you quoted me on the rending claws of Hive Tyrants, which have been out of production for a while.

And yet you quoted me on the rending claws of Hive Tyrants, which have been out of production for a while.

Look at what I said - I said "Maybe?" lol

I'm just pointing out that the most obvious and direct corollary to this is Marine Terminators and Devastators and this didn't effect them at all. So it's anyone's guess as to how this will be applied "going forward". It wouldn't be the first time GW applied something to Chaos that others get to ignore, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did apply to everyone else and just FAQ the marines.

TL;Dr

Legends ≠ to this
Given the info we have, it's not clear how consistent this will be ...

stratigo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

Hey...no fair. You're not supposed to react that sensibly! What gives? Now I can't be annoyed at you any more.

Well, I'm sure I'll mess up again so don't worry.

Maybe quit the thread while you are ahead? Or the forum even.

I applaud Daedalus being willing to eat some humble pie in the name of better discussion.

As someone that mostly lurks, I see that a lot of the most prolific posters seem to always have the same opinion, usually negative and disagreeable. Maybe they only feel compelled to post when they do disagree, or maybe they are just unhappy and want us to know. They are probably right some of the time, but if its always one way with them, it can be hard to tell. And it just becomes noise to be filtered out. More reasonable posters carry a lot more weight, with me at least.

On to the subject, while I've already said why I am unhappy with the direction they went, I'm not entirely unsympathetic to what they're trying to do. I've got a colleague who plays with his son and sometimes asks me what options to build. If dad buys Little Timmy a Devastator Squad and makes 4 different guns and gives the sgt a Powerfist just like it shows on the box, then they go to the GW store for a game and Little Timmy's Devastators gets smoked by a more focused squad, no one is happy.

They seem to have known about this a while ago, putting all the Space Marine special weapons into their own squads for the new releases. But they then put out DG, CSM, and SoB releases under the old paradigm without the old ways to fix any "mistakes" made building the kits, and here we are.

What if they leaned harder into singles? The "blind buy" Space Marine Heroes look pretty damn good and are (IMO) at an acceptable price point, and all the models are monopose now anyways. Back in the day I got my Havoks and Terminators this way, buying exactly the ones I wanted. I never felt like I got cheated or had to buy something I didn't want. If you want to convert? Convert. Want a guy with a different gun? Buy it and use the replaced guy for another squad, rather than buy a whole extra box. Of course, the money would have to work out for GW to consider doing this, and I don't know if they consider the Heroes to be a "loss leader" or not. What do you think?

 Tyran wrote:

Tycho wrote:

The Hive Tyrant is likely going to lose the rending claws that have been out of production since forever though.

Maybe? Marines didn't lose anything did they? If this were to be more widespread, surely Space marine devastators and terminators would have had to deal with the same restrictions right?

Didn't Space Marines lost all their HQs on bikes? there are 21 pages of Space Marines datasheets in their Legends page after all.

Yeah, they lost all of them except for the captain and the new primaris chaplain.

Lets not forget that no generic "Captain on bike" model is sold by GW right now.

I think GW needs to relax on the 'rules must match kits EXACTLY' trend. It does not benefit anyone, and does not address the self-perceived issue they think it does because of chapterhouse. I was understanding when they cut out rules for things that never had a miniature, but wargear should not be determined by the number of sprues a kit has, or the exact sculpting on a resin model.

The DG daemon prince resin model has a sword, a claw, a plague spitter, and no wings. The plastic DP has a claw and options for a sword, an axe, another claw, and wings.

Because of this, to take a plague spitter it MUST have a sword and no wings. Because the plague spitter is only on the resin kit and the resin kit is armed that way. A DP with wings, axe, and/or double claws cannot take a plague spitter while a DP with plague spitter cannot take any weapon other than sword. No one benefits from making the dataslate work like this. There is no upside.

To address the usual counterpoint; yes, a few players will no longer feel 'forced' to convert to get an optimal loadout. That is a balance problem easily addressed by points and has nothing to do with removing options. Players who did not want to convert never had to do so.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think GW needs to relax on the 'rules must match kits EXACTLY' trend. It does not benefit anyone, and does not address the self-perceived issue they think it does because of chapterhouse. I was understanding when they cut out rules for things that never had a miniature, but wargear should not be determined by the number of sprues a kit has, or the exact sculpting on a resin model.

The DG daemon prince resin model has a sword, a claw, a plague spitter, and no wings. The plastic DP has a claw and options for a sword, an axe, another claw, and wings.

Because of this, to take a plague spitter it MUST have a sword and no wings. Because the plague spitter is only on the resin kit and the resin kit is armed that way. A DP with wings, axe, and/or double claws cannot take a plague spitter while a DP with plague spitter cannot take any weapon other than sword. No one benefits from making the dataslate work like this. There is no upside.

To address the usual counterpoint; yes, a few players will no longer feel 'forced' to convert to get an optimal loadout. That is a balance problem easily addressed by points and has nothing to do with removing options. Players who did not want to convert never had to do so.

Also, WYSIWYG isnt a rule so you don't even NEED to convert your minis.

I find it sad that GW has turned away from the days of promoting homecrafting and customizing 40k models and scenery. Looking at earlier editions like the 4th edition rulebook, there are sections devoted to customizing terrain and kitbashing miniatures with numerous examples and photos, and even a template to photocopy to use to build your own imperial bunker (plus the original Kill Team ruleset). These days? Why include material like that when you can sell separate books and "official" terrain kits.

I had a friend years ago who was really into Chaos 40k minis who would go wild kitbashing minis and complete terrain tables. Likely much of what he created would not be "legal" today. Creativity used to be a big part of this hobby but GW seems intent upon stamping that out due to corporate greed.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Also, WYSIWYG isnt a rule so you don't even NEED to convert your minis.

Yeah, but there's a reason it's in effect for all tournaments (including GW's own tournaments). Playing without WYSIWYG is a nightmare with mixed loadouts. It's one thing if it's "every dude in this squad has a plasma gun even though they all are modeled with bolters," but it just doesn't work to say "this DG guy has a plasma gun but he really has a flail but this other guy with a plasma gun does have a plasma gun, this guy with a bolter actually has a sword, this guy with the bolter has a knife, this one has..."

yukishiro1 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Also, WYSIWYG isnt a rule so you don't even NEED to convert your minis.

Yeah, but there's a reason it's in effect for all tournaments (including GW's own tournaments). Playing without WYSIWYG is a nightmare with mixed loadouts. It's one thing if it's "every dude in this squad has a plasma gun even though they all are modeled with bolters," but it just doesn't work to say "this DG guy has a plasma gun but he really has a flail but this other guy with a plasma gun does have a plasma gun, this guy with a bolter actually has a sword, this guy with the bolter has a knife, this one has..."

thats not the case. Tournaments usually just want your model's weapons to be easily identifiable. "all my special weapons are actually plasma" "the banner guy has a flail" or "the whole squad has bolters and knifes" are all valid ways to play.

I have not played a single game in 8th, nor will I likely play a single game of 9th. I love painting the models and my DG army is really coming together. I love not having to worry about what the current rules say and just building and painting for maximum coolness. I also feel for you folks in a a very real way as a dude who's 10 yr old Ork army was bought, built and painted to play starting in 5th ed. It was horrific trying to keep up with the rules with a horde army. Wont ever do it again.

 kodos wrote:


lets talk about DW, SW and BA

and for Necrons, 10€ that it will happen with the next Codex or with mid-Edition CA, depending on sales

guess is that DG made decent money in last Edition but sales were decreasing, meaning everyone you wants them has some already and as most people drop out after 2 Editions, the last chance for big money on current collections
so change in power and equipment to make the most and get people buying the new boxes

Deathwatch is a cluster-f of an idea that has been bounced around, because they want to make them special, but also not stupidly good and stupidly confusing at the same time. Getting crammed into SM and waiting for a codex isn't really going to be representative. I haven't seen complaints about BA though.

If you think all their decision making revolves around sales then you're never going to think clearly about an issue.





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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

thats not the case. Tournaments usually just want your model's weapons to be easily identifiable. "all my special weapons are actually plasma" "the banner guy has a flail" or "the whole squad has bolters and knifes" are all valid ways to play.

You might find more discerning opponents at bigger GTs, but I've never had a problem with *consistent* proxies that were well painted and well defined. Many people have a story about a model falling onto the floor and smashing to bits before a game.

 kodos wrote:

ccs wrote:

 kodos wrote:

if people don't stop buying from GW and play their games, this will continue

On playing their games: I have the internet. I have a shelf full of previous editions. I don't have to spend a dime on their rules...

On buying models: I'll stop buying stuff from GW when they stop making models I like. It's just that simple.

Problem is, playing their game means advertising it to others and get others into means people buy stuff
and the more people play, the more people start playing and GW sees that their Business Strategy (change for the sake of change to get people buying more) works

I don't give a F. I'm not concerned with fighting the great eeevil of GW. Never have been. I just play the games I enjoy, for the most part with the people I enjoy playing games with. Some of those games, be they GW stuff or something else, just happen to occur at the local shop for convenience. If some one sees us playing a game there, having fun, & is inspired to join? Great. The more gamers, the better.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Also, WYSIWYG isnt a rule so you don't even NEED to convert your minis.

Yeah, but there's a reason it's in effect for all tournaments (including GW's own tournaments). Playing without WYSIWYG is a nightmare with mixed loadouts. It's one thing if it's "every dude in this squad has a plasma gun even though they all are modeled with bolters," but it just doesn't work to say "this DG guy has a plasma gun but he really has a flail but this other guy with a plasma gun does have a plasma gun, this guy with a bolter actually has a sword, this guy with the bolter has a knife, this one has..."

thats not the case. Tournaments usually just want your model's weapons to be easily identifiable. "all my special weapons are actually plasma" "the banner guy has a flail" or "the whole squad has bolters and knifes" are all valid ways to play.

Right...and this is a thread about how they're turned a datasheet into a nightmare in a way that doesn't allow you to say "all my special weapons are actually plasma" or whatever. There's no practical way to proxy your way out of the issue.

If you think all their decision making revolves around sales then you're never going to think clearly about an issue.

This. For every release that sells like hotcakes because it's "OP", there's at least one or two others that, frankly, suck.