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Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/20 18:06:16


Post by: squidhills


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What has bias got to with it? You think RT is going to pretend it never happened, or that it wasn't related to Ukraine?


It was a joke. Specifically, it was a joke about people on this thread giving Iron_Cap a lot of flak for primarily posting from RT. Hence the use of " "


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/20 19:58:57


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


squidhills wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What has bias got to with it? You think RT is going to pretend it never happened, or that it wasn't related to Ukraine?


It was a joke. Specifically, it was a joke about people on this thread giving Iron_Cap a lot of flak for primarily posting from RT. Hence the use of " "


Heh. That should teach me not to skim read on a temperamental kindle during my lunch break.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 11:16:30


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


'Ere we go...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28892525

http://www.reuters.com/article/comments/idUSKBN0GM0IS20140822

http://rt.com/news/182088-kiev-delay-humanitarian-aid/

The convoy loaded with humanitarian aid supplies has started moving over the border, despite the fact that Ukraine hasn't given it green light.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 11:55:57


Post by: Sigvatr


It's troubling. On the one hand, humanitarian aid for civilians living in the area is highly necessary. On the other hand, those supports would also help the rebels which is a terrible thing. Not to mention that it's still possible that there might be weapons or other military equipment hidden among the supplies.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 11:56:17


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


I thought the convoy was being inspected.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 11:57:21


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I thought the convoy was being inspected.


It was. Russia felt it was taking too long, so they decided to go without the inspections being done.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 11:59:52


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Sigvatr wrote:
It's troubling. On the one hand, humanitarian aid for civilians living in the area is highly necessary. On the other hand, those supports would also help the rebels which is a terrible thing. Not to mention that it's still possible that there might be weapons or other military equipment hidden among the supplies.


So come to an agreement or compromise by which Ukraine troops or impartial international organisations can inspect and verify the cargo.
Turning back genuine humanitarian aid is spiteful. I don't see the West jumping to provide aid for the civilians and displaced refugees of the Ukrainian governments bombing campaign.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 12:10:44


Post by: mitch_rifle


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBsEkF_GY0E

bodies being recovered of civillians being executed by pro-russia rebels. fething disgusting

(inb4 ukraine nazi/western zioniest jew conspiracy)


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 12:11:58


Post by: Sigvatr


I agree, that would be the best decision. I don't know what's taking so long, though. I'd imagine it would take less than weeks to have neutrals inspecting the trucks...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 12:14:50


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
It's troubling. On the one hand, humanitarian aid for civilians living in the area is highly necessary. On the other hand, those supports would also help the rebels which is a terrible thing. Not to mention that it's still possible that there might be weapons or other military equipment hidden among the supplies.


So come to an agreement or compromise by which Ukraine troops or impartial international organisations can inspect and verify the cargo.


Ukraine was already inspecting the cargo, Russia felt it was taking too long and did a YOLO.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 15:40:39


Post by: Iron_Captain


The trucks had already been inspected before by the International Red Cross though. Thank God the aid has finally arrived, it is sorely needed.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 15:45:01


Post by: Frazzled


Ukraine should bomb it from orbit, just to be sure. The Russian concept of humanitarian aid is to shoot down an airliner.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 15:56:45


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Frazzled wrote:
Ukraine should bomb it from orbit, just to be sure. The Russian concept of humanitarian aid is to shoot down an airliner.

Than Ukraine will first need to rent some spaceships from Russia
Also, so far the Russian government has done more for humanitarian aid than the Ukrainian government. Come to think of it, bombs may perfectly well be the Ukrainian government's idea of humanitarian aid when it comes to Eastern Ukrainians.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 16:08:43


Post by: Frazzled


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Ukraine should bomb it from orbit, just to be sure. The Russian concept of humanitarian aid is to shoot down an airliner.

Than Ukraine will first need to rent some spaceships from Russia
Also, so far the Russian government has done more for humanitarian aid than the Ukrainian government. Come to think of it, bombs may perfectly well be the Ukrainian government's idea of humanitarian aid when it comes to Eastern Ukrainians.


Arming and aiding rebels and shooting down civilian airliners is a unique way of being humanitarian.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 16:10:41


Post by: whembly


Actual on-the-ground investigative reporting...
http://www.blueforcetracker.com/article/Freedom-is-not-free--a-US-veterans-ground-level-perspective-on-life-in-wartime-Ukraine

“Freedom is not free” — a US veteran’s ground-level perspective on life in wartime Ukraine

KIEV – It’s a warm August day here. There are leaves on the trees that line Institutskaya Street, which climbs a steep hill leading out of the Maidan.

Young couples wearing shorts and flip-flops walk up and down the cobblestone street holding hands. Police officers passing by act relaxed, smiling and joking.

There is little evidence today of the apocalyptic scenes that played out on this street in late February. Yet, beneath the veneer of what could be a normal summer day in any European capital, there are reminders of what happened half a year ago.

Parents pause at one of the hundreds of photos lining the street, many of which are nestled within beds of flowers and candles. They point to the memorials, trying to explain to their children what went on here, and what it all means for their future.

Long sections of the brick sidewalk lining Institutskaya Street are stripped bare, revealing earth. In February protestors peeled away the bricks to build a defensive wall against gunfire from a special police force called the Berkut, which deposed Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych unleashed on the crowds calling for his ouster.

Today, workers pound new bricks into the naked earth, filling the cracks in between the fresh stones with sand. Others spray water on the black stains that dot the stone floor of the Maidan’s open terraces, erasing the traces of Molotov cocktails and tires burnt to provide a smokescreen from snipers.

Of all the faces and voices I encountered along Institutskaya Street that day, however, there was one moment that stood out.

I heard English spoken in an American accent — a rarity in Kiev. So my ears naturally honed in on the only understandable voice.

“Freedom is not free,” the man said.

***
Photos line the quarter-mile stretch of Institutskaya Street that rises from the Maidan to the top of the hill overlooking Kiev’s central square.

The pictures are overwhelmingly of old men and young boys. Students and professors — hardly the neo-Nazi fascists depicted by Russian media.

Just past the Hotel Ukraine (which looms at the top of the hill overlooking the Maidan), as the street rounds the top of the incline, there is a patch of trees and a low wall off to the right.

This is a place of mourning. The ground here is covered in framed photos, candles and flower garlands. There are still bullet holes in the street signs and trees.

In one spot two groups of framed photos are arranged on the ground like a church congregation, with a cross made out of red glass candle holders in the center aisle. The faces on the photos are of the fallen. More boys and old men.

The crowd lingering in this otherwise completely forgettable, ordinary patch of earth is quiet and somber. Most walk around with their hands crossed across their chests. Some women hold a hand over their mouths. They all wear their emotions on their faces and in their body language; an unusual break from typical Slavic stoicism.

Earlier that day I watched a YouTube video of what happened here in February. The sky was grey in the video, and the trees were bare.

Snipers hidden in the surrounding rooftops gunned down the Maidan protestors one-by-one as they ascended Institutskaya Street.

The protestors were unarmed. They wore motorcycle helmets and wielded shields fashioned out of the top of garbage bins and road signs for protection. As sniper fire cut down one wave of protestors at the top of the hill, their comrades would rush up to drag the dead and wounded away. Many were shot in the process.

After depositing the dead and wounded in the nearby Hotel Ukraine lobby, the survivors did something amazing — they turned around and went back into incoming fire.

It’s hard to know, of course, the inner motivations of those protestors as they walked head on into sniper fire. But clearly something powerful was motivating them. It had to be, because moving toward gunfire is a terrifying thing, and one has to be motivated by something more powerful than the fear of death to do it.

***

At lunch in Kiev, a Ukrainian friend explained to me the mood in Ukraine. Elena, a 29-year-old journalist, said there has been a wave of patriotism throughout the country that she has never seen before. She said there was a sense of shared responsibility among Ukrainians to live up to the sacrifices of the brave Maidan protestors.

“We don’t want it to be for nothing,” Elena said. “Ukrainians are very patriotic now. And if things go back to the way they were before, there will be another Maidan.”

Elena explained how her family was torn, like many families in Ukraine, due to her mixed Russian-Ukrainian heritage. She was very proud to be Ukrainian, though, and she was proud of what the Maidan protestors did for her country. She also said that most Russian-speaking Ukrainians felt the same way, and the idea that Ukraine was somehow split along ethnic or cultural lines was a fiction created by Moscow.

“A lot of the soldiers fighting for Ukraine in the east speak Russian,” Elena told me.

In the streets of Kiev, signs of the country’s reborn patriotism are subtle, but prolific. Women tie small blue and yellow ribbons (Ukraine’s national colors) on their purses. The same ribbons are tied to the radio antennas on cars and to tree branches. Artists sell paintings of scenes from the Maidan, and a sidewalk vendor sells rolls of toilet paper adorned with Putin’s face.

Ukraine’s patriotism is fueled by pride in the sacrifices of young men like Valik, my fixer here in Ukraine.

Valik was on the Maidan during the protests and the revolution. He was shot by a 9mm round from a pistol, but the bullet hit his metal belt buckle, he said, and aside from a nasty bruise, he was unharmed.

“When I fell off the barricade, they were yelling ‘another man down,’” he told me. “And then they grabbed my arms and started to pull me away, but I just popped up and told them I was OK. They couldn’t believe it.”

After the revolution, Valik’s friends convinced him to see a psychiatrist. He was resistant to the idea at first, he said. Like most young men who have endured combat he was worried about being weak.

“I was running and this guy was shot in the head by a sniper right in front of me,” he said. “His brains flew into my face and broke my glasses. But it was crazy, you know, my first thought was, ‘OK, there’s a McDonald’s right over there, I can go there to wash off my face.’”

Valik had a recurring dream of the man he saw cut down by a sniper rising up and speaking to him from the grave — his face death grey and a bullet hole in his head. The dreams have gone away now, Valik told me.

“I think the psychiatrist really helped me,” he said.

At dinner, Natalia, another Ukrainian friend, said she was more patriotic now than she had ever been. Her job in Kiev was sending her to the U.S. to work for a few months, and she had to go to the U.S. embassy the next day to apply for a visa. I assumed with my American pride that she would be excited about this.

But she felt guilty to leave her homeland in time of war, she explained. She has an older brother, and she was afraid he would be called to service to fight in the eastern front along with the 60,000 Ukrainian young men currently deployed there.

“The world is so cruel,” she said, shaking her head, looking past me.

But then she beamed when a man walked into the pub wearing a T-shirt with a trident on the front — Ukraine’s national symbol.

“It’s not so unusual to see that now,” she said, smiling. “I’m so proud of my country and to be Ukrainian. I hope this stupid war ends soon.”

***

As a veteran of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I know what it’s like to be in the military in time of war. And as someone who was a 19-year-old cadet at the Air Force Academy on 9/11, I also know what it’s like to be the citizen of a country under attack.

But I’ve never experienced being in a country where the people are not just fighting for security, but are locked in an existential battle for their national identity and their future. Yes, Afghans and Iraqis were fighting for the future too, but they didn’t exhibit anything close to Ukraine’s sense of national unity or shared sacrifice.

The young soldiers I’ve seen in Kiev, likely destined for the front lines in the east, wear a combined look of fear and youthful exuberance that I remember seeing on young U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq. And the combination of pride and worry felt by the families they leave behind is no different than what my family endured when my brother and I deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq.

But there is a distinct difference in the national mood of Ukraine than what currently exists in the United States, despite the fact that the U.S. currently has more than 30,000 troops still deployed to Afghanistan and about 1,000 in Iraq.

There’s a sense here that the war really matters. Politicians fear about more than just political blowback for withdrawal; the costs of defeat aren’t hypothetical talking points.

Similarly, there is little debate about whether the war in the east is worthwhile. The conversation is usually just one of expressed sadness about why the war has to be fought at all. Ukrainians know why they have to win; they just don’t know why they have to fight.

“The revolution was never about Russia,” Elena explained. “It was about making Ukraine better. No one thought this war would happen.”

In the little time I’ve spent here so far, the words of that lone American voice keep replaying in my mind as I walk the streets of Kiev. As I see young women blowing kisses to convoys of troops. Or as I see an old woman kiss her fingers and then reach to touch the face of a young boy in one of the photos lining Institutskaya Street.

“Freedom is not free.”

I’ve always known that, and I’ve heard the expression countless times. But until I arrived in Ukraine, I never really understood what it meant.




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 16:16:21


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Frazzled wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Ukraine should bomb it from orbit, just to be sure. The Russian concept of humanitarian aid is to shoot down an airliner.

Than Ukraine will first need to rent some spaceships from Russia
Also, so far the Russian government has done more for humanitarian aid than the Ukrainian government. Come to think of it, bombs may perfectly well be the Ukrainian government's idea of humanitarian aid when it comes to Eastern Ukrainians.


Arming and aiding rebels and shooting down civilian airliners is a unique way of being humanitarian.

Didn't know Russia shot down an airliner? Also, sending a much needed aid convoy with food, water and medicine to the citizens of Luhansk seems much more humanitarian to me than bombing the gak out of them, as the Ukrainian government does. YMMV of course


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 16:17:30


Post by: Frazzled


You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:07:57


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.


Which has been conclusively attributed to Ukrainian rebels, who may or may not have been supplied by the Russians, not Russia itself.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:11:30


Post by: thenoobbomb


 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.

So the civilians living in those besieged town should all be starved and bereft of medicine? Yay, Gaza-in-Ukraine!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:24:53


Post by: Frazzled


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.


Which has been conclusively attributed to Ukrainian rebels, who may or may not have been supplied by the Russians, not Russia itself.



Conclusively proven by WHO?

Who were the shooters?

Were did they get the training?

Where did they get missile systems?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.

So the civilians living in those besieged town should all be starved and bereft of medicine? Yay, Gaza-in-Ukraine!


The towns should surrender.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:30:58


Post by: kronk


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.


Which has been conclusively attributed to Ukrainian rebels, who may or may not have been supplied by the Russians, not Russia itself.



Russian proxies.

Don't ever forget that. That blood is on Putin's hands.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:33:26


Post by: thenoobbomb


 Frazzled wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.

So the civilians living in those besieged town should all be starved and bereft of medicine? Yay, Gaza-in-Ukraine!


The towns should surrender.

And how can the civilians do this? They're being oppressed by the rebels.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:40:15


Post by: DarkTraveler777


 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.

So the civilians living in those besieged town should all be starved and bereft of medicine? Yay, Gaza-in-Ukraine!


The towns should surrender.

And how can the civilians do this? They're being oppressed by the rebels.


Source? I haven't read much about civilian opposition to the rebels in eastern Ukraine.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:42:20


Post by: thenoobbomb


 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.

So the civilians living in those besieged town should all be starved and bereft of medicine? Yay, Gaza-in-Ukraine!


The towns should surrender.

And how can the civilians do this? They're being oppressed by the rebels.


Source? I haven't read much about civilian opposition to the rebels in eastern Ukraine.

My local newspaper and the radio

Not the best thing to quote as a source in a debate on the internet, but eh. I also recall seeing a news item in one of the cities where rebels were harassing some people, and a man got hit for not walking fast enough.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:44:51


Post by: Frazzled


 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.

So the civilians living in those besieged town should all be starved and bereft of medicine? Yay, Gaza-in-Ukraine!


The towns should surrender.

And how can the civilians do this? They're being oppressed by the rebels.


Why on earth do you think the civilians would get the supplies then?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:48:41


Post by: thenoobbomb


 Frazzled wrote:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.

So the civilians living in those besieged town should all be starved and bereft of medicine? Yay, Gaza-in-Ukraine!


The towns should surrender.

And how can the civilians do this? They're being oppressed by the rebels.


Why on earth do you think the civilians would get the supplies then?

Because the militia already have the food and medicines? It's also been made pretty clear that those supplies are intended for the civilians. The rebels'd best do what the Kremlin tells them to, or face the consequences. I mean, we all know that those guys responsible for shooting down the Malaysian airline will end up dead in a couple of years, right?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:51:14


Post by: Sigvatr


 thenoobbomb wrote:


Not the best thing to quote as a source in a debate on the internet, but eh. I also recall seeing a news item in one of the cities where rebels were harassing some people, and a man got hit for not walking fast enough.


Still better than RT!

If the supplies are being...supplied by the rebels, they will trade it for power, as seen in pretty much every similar situation.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 17:57:13


Post by: Iron_Captain


 whembly wrote:
Actual on-the-ground investigative reporting...
http://www.blueforcetracker.com/article/Freedom-is-not-free--a-US-veterans-ground-level-perspective-on-life-in-wartime-Ukraine
Spoiler:

“Freedom is not free” — a US veteran’s ground-level perspective on life in wartime Ukraine

KIEV – It’s a warm August day here. There are leaves on the trees that line Institutskaya Street, which climbs a steep hill leading out of the Maidan.

Young couples wearing shorts and flip-flops walk up and down the cobblestone street holding hands. Police officers passing by act relaxed, smiling and joking.

There is little evidence today of the apocalyptic scenes that played out on this street in late February. Yet, beneath the veneer of what could be a normal summer day in any European capital, there are reminders of what happened half a year ago.

Parents pause at one of the hundreds of photos lining the street, many of which are nestled within beds of flowers and candles. They point to the memorials, trying to explain to their children what went on here, and what it all means for their future.

Long sections of the brick sidewalk lining Institutskaya Street are stripped bare, revealing earth. In February protestors peeled away the bricks to build a defensive wall against gunfire from a special police force called the Berkut, which deposed Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych unleashed on the crowds calling for his ouster.

Today, workers pound new bricks into the naked earth, filling the cracks in between the fresh stones with sand. Others spray water on the black stains that dot the stone floor of the Maidan’s open terraces, erasing the traces of Molotov cocktails and tires burnt to provide a smokescreen from snipers.

Of all the faces and voices I encountered along Institutskaya Street that day, however, there was one moment that stood out.

I heard English spoken in an American accent — a rarity in Kiev. So my ears naturally honed in on the only understandable voice.

“Freedom is not free,” the man said.

***
Photos line the quarter-mile stretch of Institutskaya Street that rises from the Maidan to the top of the hill overlooking Kiev’s central square.

The pictures are overwhelmingly of old men and young boys. Students and professors — hardly the neo-Nazi fascists depicted by Russian media.

Just past the Hotel Ukraine (which looms at the top of the hill overlooking the Maidan), as the street rounds the top of the incline, there is a patch of trees and a low wall off to the right.

This is a place of mourning. The ground here is covered in framed photos, candles and flower garlands. There are still bullet holes in the street signs and trees.

In one spot two groups of framed photos are arranged on the ground like a church congregation, with a cross made out of red glass candle holders in the center aisle. The faces on the photos are of the fallen. More boys and old men.

The crowd lingering in this otherwise completely forgettable, ordinary patch of earth is quiet and somber. Most walk around with their hands crossed across their chests. Some women hold a hand over their mouths. They all wear their emotions on their faces and in their body language; an unusual break from typical Slavic stoicism.

Earlier that day I watched a YouTube video of what happened here in February. The sky was grey in the video, and the trees were bare.

Snipers hidden in the surrounding rooftops gunned down the Maidan protestors one-by-one as they ascended Institutskaya Street.

The protestors were unarmed. They wore motorcycle helmets and wielded shields fashioned out of the top of garbage bins and road signs for protection. As sniper fire cut down one wave of protestors at the top of the hill, their comrades would rush up to drag the dead and wounded away. Many were shot in the process.

After depositing the dead and wounded in the nearby Hotel Ukraine lobby, the survivors did something amazing — they turned around and went back into incoming fire.

It’s hard to know, of course, the inner motivations of those protestors as they walked head on into sniper fire. But clearly something powerful was motivating them. It had to be, because moving toward gunfire is a terrifying thing, and one has to be motivated by something more powerful than the fear of death to do it.

***

At lunch in Kiev, a Ukrainian friend explained to me the mood in Ukraine. Elena, a 29-year-old journalist, said there has been a wave of patriotism throughout the country that she has never seen before. She said there was a sense of shared responsibility among Ukrainians to live up to the sacrifices of the brave Maidan protestors.

“We don’t want it to be for nothing,” Elena said. “Ukrainians are very patriotic now. And if things go back to the way they were before, there will be another Maidan.”

Elena explained how her family was torn, like many families in Ukraine, due to her mixed Russian-Ukrainian heritage. She was very proud to be Ukrainian, though, and she was proud of what the Maidan protestors did for her country. She also said that most Russian-speaking Ukrainians felt the same way, and the idea that Ukraine was somehow split along ethnic or cultural lines was a fiction created by Moscow.

“A lot of the soldiers fighting for Ukraine in the east speak Russian,” Elena told me.

In the streets of Kiev, signs of the country’s reborn patriotism are subtle, but prolific. Women tie small blue and yellow ribbons (Ukraine’s national colors) on their purses. The same ribbons are tied to the radio antennas on cars and to tree branches. Artists sell paintings of scenes from the Maidan, and a sidewalk vendor sells rolls of toilet paper adorned with Putin’s face.

Ukraine’s patriotism is fueled by pride in the sacrifices of young men like Valik, my fixer here in Ukraine.

Valik was on the Maidan during the protests and the revolution. He was shot by a 9mm round from a pistol, but the bullet hit his metal belt buckle, he said, and aside from a nasty bruise, he was unharmed.

“When I fell off the barricade, they were yelling ‘another man down,’” he told me. “And then they grabbed my arms and started to pull me away, but I just popped up and told them I was OK. They couldn’t believe it.”

After the revolution, Valik’s friends convinced him to see a psychiatrist. He was resistant to the idea at first, he said. Like most young men who have endured combat he was worried about being weak.

“I was running and this guy was shot in the head by a sniper right in front of me,” he said. “His brains flew into my face and broke my glasses. But it was crazy, you know, my first thought was, ‘OK, there’s a McDonald’s right over there, I can go there to wash off my face.’”

Valik had a recurring dream of the man he saw cut down by a sniper rising up and speaking to him from the grave — his face death grey and a bullet hole in his head. The dreams have gone away now, Valik told me.

“I think the psychiatrist really helped me,” he said.

At dinner, Natalia, another Ukrainian friend, said she was more patriotic now than she had ever been. Her job in Kiev was sending her to the U.S. to work for a few months, and she had to go to the U.S. embassy the next day to apply for a visa. I assumed with my American pride that she would be excited about this.

But she felt guilty to leave her homeland in time of war, she explained. She has an older brother, and she was afraid he would be called to service to fight in the eastern front along with the 60,000 Ukrainian young men currently deployed there.

“The world is so cruel,” she said, shaking her head, looking past me.

But then she beamed when a man walked into the pub wearing a T-shirt with a trident on the front — Ukraine’s national symbol.

“It’s not so unusual to see that now,” she said, smiling. “I’m so proud of my country and to be Ukrainian. I hope this stupid war ends soon.”

***

As a veteran of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I know what it’s like to be in the military in time of war. And as someone who was a 19-year-old cadet at the Air Force Academy on 9/11, I also know what it’s like to be the citizen of a country under attack.

But I’ve never experienced being in a country where the people are not just fighting for security, but are locked in an existential battle for their national identity and their future. Yes, Afghans and Iraqis were fighting for the future too, but they didn’t exhibit anything close to Ukraine’s sense of national unity or shared sacrifice.

The young soldiers I’ve seen in Kiev, likely destined for the front lines in the east, wear a combined look of fear and youthful exuberance that I remember seeing on young U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq. And the combination of pride and worry felt by the families they leave behind is no different than what my family endured when my brother and I deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq.

But there is a distinct difference in the national mood of Ukraine than what currently exists in the United States, despite the fact that the U.S. currently has more than 30,000 troops still deployed to Afghanistan and about 1,000 in Iraq.

There’s a sense here that the war really matters. Politicians fear about more than just political blowback for withdrawal; the costs of defeat aren’t hypothetical talking points.

Similarly, there is little debate about whether the war in the east is worthwhile. The conversation is usually just one of expressed sadness about why the war has to be fought at all. Ukrainians know why they have to win; they just don’t know why they have to fight.

“The revolution was never about Russia,” Elena explained. “It was about making Ukraine better. No one thought this war would happen.”

In the little time I’ve spent here so far, the words of that lone American voice keep replaying in my mind as I walk the streets of Kiev. As I see young women blowing kisses to convoys of troops. Or as I see an old woman kiss her fingers and then reach to touch the face of a young boy in one of the photos lining Institutskaya Street.

“Freedom is not free.”

I’ve always known that, and I’ve heard the expression countless times. But until I arrived in Ukraine, I never really understood what it meant.



Great article. “Freedom is not free.” There is so much truth to that. But the price is not always the same.
The pro-Western Ukrainians in Kiev got their "freedom" for cheap. In the meanwhile, the pro-Russian Ukrainians in Luhansk pay a much heavier price for their freedom. Here is a real bit of factual, unbiased on-the-ground reporting:

Warning! Graphic and shocking content:
Spoiler:



 Frazzled wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.


Which has been conclusively attributed to Ukrainian rebels, who may or may not have been supplied by the Russians, not Russia itself.



Conclusively proven by WHO?

Who were the shooters?

Were did they get the training?

Where did they get missile systems?


Either Ukrainian rebels or Cossacks.

Soviet Union.

A Ukrainian Army base.


 Frazzled wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.

So the civilians living in those besieged town should all be starved and bereft of medicine? Yay, Gaza-in-Ukraine!


The towns should surrender.
The Ukrainian government should stop bombing them and try negotiations instead.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 18:26:55


Post by: Sigvatr


According to Lithuania, rebels have supposedly kidnapped and murdered a diplomatic Lithuanian representative in Lugansk.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 19:48:41


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 kronk wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.


Which has been conclusively attributed to Ukrainian rebels, who may or may not have been supplied by the Russians, not Russia itself.



Russian proxies.

Don't ever forget that. That blood is on Putin's hands.


So has America.

if you're going to start moralising, perhaps you should look inwards and consider your own country's many crimes.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 19:52:08


Post by: kronk


This isn't a game of who's contry has done the least/most fethed up gak. You really want to stat that one? :-)

This is a game of who shot down the Malasian Airliner.

Answer: The Russians.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 19:59:20


Post by: thenoobbomb


 kronk wrote:
This isn't a game of who's contry has done the least/most fethed up gak. You really want to stat that one? :-)

This is a game of who shot down the Malasian Airliner.

Answer: The Russians.

Russian Rebels, potentially supplied by the Russians.*

You really think that Putin ordered the thing to be shot down? No.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:00:11


Post by: whembly


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 kronk wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.


Which has been conclusively attributed to Ukrainian rebels, who may or may not have been supplied by the Russians, not Russia itself.



Russian proxies.

Don't ever forget that. That blood is on Putin's hands.


So has America.

if you're going to start moralising, perhaps you should look inwards and consider your own country's many crimes.

So has UK... wanna start this game?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:00:43


Post by: kronk


 thenoobbomb wrote:
 kronk wrote:
This isn't a game of who's contry has done the least/most fethed up gak. You really want to stat that one? :-)

This is a game of who shot down the Malasian Airliner.

Answer: The Russians.

Russian Rebels, potentially supplied by the Russians.*

You really think that Putin ordered the thing to be shot down? No.


If a man gives his 5 year old a loaded gun, is he not responsible when that 5 year old shoots something?

I thought not.

Also, you honestly believe that there aren't Russian military among the rebels? The guys manning these AA rockets aren't actual Russians? Really? Really, really? OK then.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:01:02


Post by: Sigvatr


He certainly didn't.

To me, the most plausible reason is that the rebels shot the plane down because they are idiots, with anti-air supplied by Russia. Which makes the latter just as responsible as the former. It's like giving a small child a handgun to play with and when an accident happens, you're all like "Nonono, that was not myyyyy fault!".

And just btw: Russia driving in Ukraine with those trucks without permission is similar to them driving over the border with a tank. They are breaking international law. Again.

/e: http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_112089.htm

Russia turning up the heat.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:08:17


Post by: thenoobbomb


 kronk wrote:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 kronk wrote:
This isn't a game of who's contry has done the least/most fethed up gak. You really want to stat that one? :-)

This is a game of who shot down the Malasian Airliner.

Answer: The Russians.

Russian Rebels, potentially supplied by the Russians.*

You really think that Putin ordered the thing to be shot down? No.


If a man gives his 5 year old a loaded gun, is he not responsible when that 5 year old shoots something?

I thought not.

Also, you honestly believe that there aren't Russian military among the rebels? The guys manning these AA rockets aren't actual Russians? Really? Really, really? OK then.

Yeah, I don't think it was shot down by evil anti-American commies (hurr). Because they'd have recognized the civilian transmissions/codes/thingiegummwhatnots the plane was broadcasting.

I'll be going now. Internet arguments aren't very good for my health


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:12:32


Post by: Frazzled


 thenoobbomb wrote:
 kronk wrote:
This isn't a game of who's contry has done the least/most fethed up gak. You really want to stat that one? :-)

This is a game of who shot down the Malasian Airliner.

Answer: The Russians.

Russian Rebels, potentially supplied by the Russians.*

You really think that Putin ordered the thing to be shot down? No.


Do I really think Putin gave advanced antiaircraft weaponry to the rebels, operated by Russian crews? You betcha. All over the internet they had the selfie of the Russian soldier, where they tracked the selfie was taken on the Ukrainian side of the border. OOPS!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:18:00


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


This ain't a simple Black & White case of "Russia = BAD. West & Friends = GOOD" like some people here seem to think. I see a nasty conflict in which both sides are guilty of despicable acts. Yet all we ever hear about in this thread is Russia's crimes.

[MOD EDIT: preview imagine is rather gory. Spoilered now. - Alpharius]
Spoiler:



How the feth can you people side with a government that does this to its own people??

You moralise, and condemn Russia for supposedly shooting down a civilian airliner (when the evidence suggests that it was Ukrainian Rebels who shot it down, not Russians).

But THIS is why the Rebels are operating AA systems, and shooting down aircraft. To fight back, and defend themselves against airstrikes, that seem to be killing as many Ukrainian civilians as Ukrainian Rebels.

This is a fething war. Bad things happen in war, including accidental shoot downs of civilian aircraft like MH170. If you don't want accidents like this to happen, then don't start a war, or don't cheer on the belligerents in a War.

 whembly wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 kronk wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.


Which has been conclusively attributed to Ukrainian rebels, who may or may not have been supplied by the Russians, not Russia itself.



Russian proxies.

Don't ever forget that. That blood is on Putin's hands.


So has America.

if you're going to start moralising, perhaps you should look inwards and consider your own country's many crimes.

So has UK... wanna start this game?


Oh, I agree absolutely. My country has quite a lot of blood on its hands too. I quite frequently condemn my own country and government on this forum, not just the USA.

Point is, there are a lot of hypocrites in this thread, condemning Russia for supplying arms to Rebels (something the West also does when it suits us). Yet they cheer on the Government in Kiev, as it bombs its own people, with airstrikes and artillery.

The West really isn't all that different to Russia when it comes to stoking up violent conflicts to pursue our agenda's and national interests. We just disguise our motives better and dress it up as liberal interventionism and all that BS.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:20:02


Post by: kronk


 thenoobbomb wrote:
 kronk wrote:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 kronk wrote:
This isn't a game of who's contry has done the least/most fethed up gak. You really want to stat that one? :-)

This is a game of who shot down the Malasian Airliner.

Answer: The Russians.

Russian Rebels, potentially supplied by the Russians.*

You really think that Putin ordered the thing to be shot down? No.


If a man gives his 5 year old a loaded gun, is he not responsible when that 5 year old shoots something?

I thought not.

Also, you honestly believe that there aren't Russian military among the rebels? The guys manning these AA rockets aren't actual Russians? Really? Really, really? OK then.

Yeah, I don't think it was shot down by evil anti-American commies (hurr).


No one said it was on purpose. But that doesn't mean Russia isn't responsible.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:20:28


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Frazzled wrote:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 kronk wrote:
This isn't a game of who's contry has done the least/most fethed up gak. You really want to stat that one? :-)

This is a game of who shot down the Malasian Airliner.

Answer: The Russians.

Russian Rebels, potentially supplied by the Russians.*

You really think that Putin ordered the thing to be shot down? No.


Do I really think Putin gave advanced antiaircraft weaponry to the rebels, operated by Russian crews? You betcha. All over the internet they had the selfie of the Russian soldier, where they tracked the selfie was taken on the Ukrainian side of the border. OOPS!


*Citation needed.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:22:56


Post by: Sigvatr


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
This ain't a simple Black & White case of "Russia = BAD. West & Friends = GOOD" like some people here seem to think. I see a nasty conflict in which both sides are guilty of despicable acts. Yet all we ever hear about in this thread is Russia's crimes.


First of all, I do hope for the mods to immediately react and remove that video of yours.

Secondly: the Russia-supported rebels CHOSE this war, not Ukraine. The rebels armed themselves with the help of Russia after the latter invaded the Krim. They then occupied public buildings and took control of large regions. They refused to take part in ANY diplomatic undertaking suggested by the Ukraine, the EU and US. They did not let Ukraine any choice but to use military force. The rebels have zero legimitation, they are a root that must be uprooted with an iron fist. The sooner the last of them is killed, the better for the world. It is a pity that they hide among civilians, else eradicating them would be much easier.

/e: Thanks Alphie :*


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:25:10


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 kronk wrote:

If a man gives his 5 year old a loaded gun, is he not responsible when that 5 year old shoots something?

I thought not.


If that kid is defending himself against someone trying to kill him, No.

Stop taking MH170 out of context, its disingenuous. The reason why the Rebels are shooting down aircraft in the first place is to defend against the Ukraine Government's brutal bombing campaign.

What the feth do you expect? That the Rebels just not shoot back at the aircraft raining down bombs all over East Ukraine?

Also, you honestly believe that there aren't Russian military among the rebels? The guys manning these AA rockets aren't actual Russians? Really? Really, really? OK then.


You honestly believe the CIA and other Western intelligence agencies aren't covertly providing aid and intelligence to the Ukraine Government?



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:25:28


Post by: whembly


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Spoiler:
This ain't a simple Black & White case of "Russia = BAD. West & Friends = GOOD" like some people here seem to think. I see a nasty conflict in which both sides are guilty of despicable acts. Yet all we ever hear about in this thread is Russia's crimes.

[MOD EDIT: preview imagine is rather gory. Spoilered now. - Alpharius]
[spoiler]


How the feth can you people side with a government that does this to its own people??

You moralise, and condemn Russia for supposedly shooting down a civilian airliner (when the evidence suggests that it was Ukrainian Rebels who shot it down, not Russians).

But THIS is why the Rebels are operating AA systems, and shooting down aircraft. To fight back, and defend themselves against airstrikes, that seem to be killing as many Ukrainian civilians as Ukrainian Rebels.

This is a fething war. Bad things happen in war, including accidental shoot downs of civilian aircraft like MH170. If you don't want accidents like this to happen, then don't start a war, or don't cheer on the belligerents in a War.

 whembly wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 kronk wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed have missed that Malaysian Airliner thing.


Which has been conclusively attributed to Ukrainian rebels, who may or may not have been supplied by the Russians, not Russia itself.



Russian proxies.

Don't ever forget that. That blood is on Putin's hands.


So has America.

if you're going to start moralising, perhaps you should look inwards and consider your own country's many crimes.

So has UK... wanna start this game?
[/spoiler]

Oh, I agree absolutely. My country has quite a lot of blood on its hands too. I quite frequently condemn my own country and government on this forum, not just the USA.

Point is, there are a lot of hypocrites in this thread, condemning Russia for supplying arms to Rebels (something the West also does when it suits us). Yet they cheer on the Government in Kiev, as it bombs its own people, with airstrikes and artillery.

The West really isn't all that different to Russia when it comes to stoking up violent conflicts to pursue our agenda's and national interests. We just disguise our motives better and dress it up as liberal interventionism and all that BS.

Well... that's just it.

Sometimes it doesn't matter. In War™, it can simply boils down to who do you want to win and lose. That's it.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:26:24


Post by: DarkTraveler777


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 kronk wrote:
This isn't a game of who's contry has done the least/most fethed up gak. You really want to stat that one? :-)

This is a game of who shot down the Malasian Airliner.

Answer: The Russians.

Russian Rebels, potentially supplied by the Russians.*

You really think that Putin ordered the thing to be shot down? No.


Do I really think Putin gave advanced antiaircraft weaponry to the rebels, operated by Russian crews? You betcha. All over the internet they had the selfie of the Russian soldier, where they tracked the selfie was taken on the Ukrainian side of the border. OOPS!


*Citation needed.

http://nypost.com/2014/07/31/soldiers-selfies-might-prove-russias-role-in-ukraine/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2711722/The-Russian-soldier-selfie-obsession-prove-Putin-operating-Ukraine-Comms-officer-operates-kit-like-used-MH17-accidentally-reveals-border.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/01/selfie-russian-soldier-ukraine_n_5640779.html


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:27:17


Post by: Sigvatr


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


You honestly believe the CIA and other Western intelligence agencies aren't covertly providing aid and intelligence to the Ukraine Government?



a) There's quite a difference between providing intel and SHOOTING AT A COUNTRY WITH ARTILLERY along with providing rebels with arms and breaking international law by invading a country TWICE.

b) EU / USA are helping a country fight off rebels. That's a legimitate case. It doesn't work the other way around.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:27:23


Post by: kronk


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 kronk wrote:

If a man gives his 5 year old a loaded gun, is he not responsible when that 5 year old shoots something?

I thought not.


If that kid is defending himself against someone trying to kill him, No.

Stop taking MH170 out of context, its disingenuous. The reason why the Rebels are shooting down aircraft in the first place is to defend against the Ukraine Government's brutal bombing campaign.

What the feth do you expect? That the Rebels just not shoot back at the aircraft raining down bombs all over East Ukraine?


So, the "rebels", which are NOT actually Russian military AT ALL, started a war to leave the Ukraine and join Russia, and we're supposed to feel sorry for them?

Who is the one with the fethed up morals here?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:28:13


Post by: Sigvatr


 kronk wrote:


Who is the one with the fethed up morals here?


Uh, uh, take me, I know it! I know it!

Saying "Oh the poor rebels were attacked!" is the same as supporting any African warlord because he is just "defending himself" against the country. Poor, poor African warlords :(


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:34:21


Post by: Frazzled


 Sigvatr wrote:
 kronk wrote:


Who is the one with the fethed up morals here?


Uh, uh, take me, I know it! I know it!

Saying "Oh the poor rebels were attacked!" is the same as supporting any African warlord because he is just "defending himself" against the country. Poor, poor African warlords :(


I am Spartacus!



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:37:07


Post by: Sigvatr


That cat looks slightly annoyed. Slightly!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:38:01


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Sigvatr wrote:
First of all, I do hope for the mods to immediately react and remove that video of yours.


Why? Doesn't suit your narrative?

Whilst I regret omitting the spoilers (lots of copy & pasting between multiple tags, must have missed the spoiler tags), I don't think we should be trying to hide just how brutal both sides in this conflict are.

This is War. This is what happens to victims in War. To all the people up in arms about Russia supposedly shooting down MH170 and killing all those Western citizens. Well this is what the Ukraine Government is doing to East Ukrainians.

Also, it was Iron Captain's video not mine.


Secondly: the Russia-supported rebels CHOSE this war, not Ukraine.


In response to west Ukrainians overthrowing a Government and President who was popular in the East, encouraged and explicitly condoned and supported by us.


They then occupied public buildings and took control of large regions.


Just like Kiev.

They refused to take part in ANY diplomatic undertaking suggested by the Ukraine, the EU and US. They did not let Ukraine any choice but to use military force.


Just like Kiev.

The rebels have zero legimitation,


Just like Kiev.

they are a root that must be uprooted with an iron fist. The sooner the last of them is killed, the better for the world. It is a pity that they hide among civilians, else eradicating them would be much easier.


No matter how many people are killed in the process?




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:38:47


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Sigvatr wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
This ain't a simple Black & White case of "Russia = BAD. West & Friends = GOOD" like some people here seem to think. I see a nasty conflict in which both sides are guilty of despicable acts. Yet all we ever hear about in this thread is Russia's crimes.


First of all, I do hope for the mods to immediately react and remove that video of yours.

Secondly: the Russia-supported rebels CHOSE this war, not Ukraine. The rebels armed themselves with the help of Russia after the latter invaded the Krim. They then occupied public buildings and took control of large regions. They refused to take part in ANY diplomatic undertaking suggested by the Ukraine, the EU and US. They did not let Ukraine any choice but to use military force. The rebels have zero legimitation, they are a root that must be uprooted with an iron fist. The sooner the last of them is killed, the better for the world. It is a pity that they hide among civilians, else eradicating them would be much easier.
Ow, what is problem? Reality too harsh for you?
Your beloved Ukrainian government not the heroes they claim to be?
The pro-Russian protesters did not start this war. The pro-Western protesters did when they staged an illegal coup against the democratic government of Ukraine. The illegitimate interim-government did when they sent police, tanks and soldiers against what up to that point had been peaceful protesters. Peacefully occupying a government building is a sign of protest and an attempt to force negotiations, not an official declaration of war as you seem to think.

 kronk wrote:


So, the "rebels", which are NOT actually Russian military AT ALL, started a war to leave the Ukraine and join Russia, and we're supposed to feel sorry for them?

Who is the one with the fethed up morals here?
They did not start a war to join Russia. They started protests against the pro-Western coup in Kiev, to secure the rights of ethnic minorites and for more autonomy for their region. It was not until Kiev started a war against them that they wanted to join Russia.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:41:32


Post by: Sigvatr


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
First of all, I do hope for the mods to immediately react and remove that video of yours.


Why? Doesn't suit your narrative?


It violates forum rules, that's because.

Also, it was Iron Captain's video not mine.


Ignored him a long time ago so I just saw you posting it.

"just like Kiev",


You're definitely going to back dis up, aren't ya?

No matter how many people are killed in the process?


I recall someone saying "It's war". It's a war Ukraine did not choose, but was forced into. It's a war that is only going on because Russia is secretly supporting rebels hiding among civilians.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:43:03


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 Frazzled wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 kronk wrote:


Who is the one with the fethed up morals here?


Uh, uh, take me, I know it! I know it!

Saying "Oh the poor rebels were attacked!" is the same as supporting any African warlord because he is just "defending himself" against the country. Poor, poor African warlords :(


I am Spartacus!




Frazz is that you holding a wiener dog that is wearing catoflauge?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:43:44


Post by: Frazzled



Ow, what is problem? Reality too harsh for you?


Because we are, after all, on a website dedicated to extremely expensive toy soldiers, and not 4Chan.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 14:44:19


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 kronk wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 kronk wrote:

If a man gives his 5 year old a loaded gun, is he not responsible when that 5 year old shoots something?

I thought not.


If that kid is defending himself against someone trying to kill him, No.

Stop taking MH170 out of context, its disingenuous. The reason why the Rebels are shooting down aircraft in the first place is to defend against the Ukraine Government's brutal bombing campaign.

What the feth do you expect? That the Rebels just not shoot back at the aircraft raining down bombs all over East Ukraine?


So, the "rebels", which are NOT actually Russian military AT ALL, started a war to leave the Ukraine and join Russia, and we're supposed to feel sorry for them?




No, we're supposed to condemn BOTH sides and coerce them by economic sanctions and diplomatic pressure to come to a negotiating table.

Not pour gasoline on the fire by encouraging the side we happen to like the most, to kill the side we like the least.

Who is the one with the fethed up morals here?


Anybody who condemns one side for acts of murder, whilst cheering on the other equally murderous side. Which appears to be 3/4 of the people posting in this thread.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:46:19


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Frazzled wrote:

Ow, what is problem? Reality too harsh for you?


Because we are, after all, on a website dedicated to extremely expensive toy soldiers, and not 4Chan.
But hey, this is the off topic forum is it not?
In a thread about a real war, in which real people like you and me are killed. This is not about toy soldiers.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:47:06


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
 kronk wrote:
This isn't a game of who's contry has done the least/most fethed up gak. You really want to stat that one? :-)

This is a game of who shot down the Malasian Airliner.

Answer: The Russians.

Russian Rebels, potentially supplied by the Russians.*

You really think that Putin ordered the thing to be shot down? No.


Do I really think Putin gave advanced antiaircraft weaponry to the rebels, operated by Russian crews? You betcha. All over the internet they had the selfie of the Russian soldier, where they tracked the selfie was taken on the Ukrainian side of the border. OOPS!


*Citation needed.

http://nypost.com/2014/07/31/soldiers-selfies-might-prove-russias-role-in-ukraine/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2711722/The-Russian-soldier-selfie-obsession-prove-Putin-operating-Ukraine-Comms-officer-operates-kit-like-used-MH17-accidentally-reveals-border.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/01/selfie-russian-soldier-ukraine_n_5640779.html


Thankyou.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:47:24


Post by: Sigvatr


Curse me, but I tend to be on the side of a country defending itself against rebels hiding among civilians, covertly supported by a freedom-hating and fully corrupt country that aims for the destabilization of a large region and purposefully violates international law. Weird. Shooting down a civilian airplane and / or supporting shooting it down is another downer :(


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:49:04


Post by: thenoobbomb



Who is the one with the fethed up morals here?


Anybody who condemns one side for acts of murder, whilst cheering on the other equally murderous side. Which appears to be 3/4 of the people posting in this thread.

Exactly. It's absolutely disgusting.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:50:10


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


No, we're supposed to condemn BOTH sides and coerce them by economic sanctions and diplomatic pressure to come to a negotiating table.

Not pour gasoline on the fire by encouraging the side we happen to like the most, to kill the side we like the least.


Meh... the fields of battle are a negotiating table of sorts, I neither support nor despise any one side in this thing


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 20:55:39


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Sigvatr wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Also, it was Iron Captain's video not mine.


Ignored him a long time ago so I just saw you posting it.


Right, so you ignore people who disagree with you?

Considering that...its what? Just me and Iron Captain dissenting from the Orthodox view in this thread? Ignoring him means you're shutting yourself off to most of the opposing views. Or do you just prefer an echo chamber?

I recall someone saying "It's war". It's a war Ukraine did not choose, but was forced into. It's a war that is only going on because Russia is secretly supporting rebels hiding among civilians.


Right, and we the West are supporting and encouraging the overthrow of governments throughout the world, leaving power vacuums and civil war in the wake. I really don't see why its wrong when Russia does it, but OK when we do it.

This started when west Ukraine overthrew the legitimate elected Government because it didn't like its decisions. Then the east Ukraine tried to do the same and break away from a new revolutionary government that was imposed on it. This War started in Kiev.





Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/22 21:03:14


Post by: Sigvatr


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Also, it was Iron Captain's video not mine.


Ignored him a long time ago so I just saw you posting it.


Right, so you ignore people who disagree with you?


I haven't ignored you, haven't I? He simply did not add anything to the discussion. Constantly posting RT links and blindly embracing anything Russia does is less useful than my forum view being less cluttered with posts. He still is very young, so hope ain't lost yet.

This started when west Ukraine overthrew the legitimate elected Government because it didn't like its decisions. Then the east Ukraine tried to do the same and break away from a new revolutionary government that was imposed on it. This War started in Kiev.


I'm not sure where you were a few months ago. I'd highly suggest reading up on those events as they differ largely from what the rebels do right now and have been doing up until that point, starting from actual diplomacy compared to a total refusal of diplomatic measures and minor other events, such as shooting down civilian airplanes and having a country invade another breaking international law. Minor differences.




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/23 00:29:56


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
This ain't a simple Black & White case of "Russia = BAD. West & Friends = GOOD" like some people here seem to think. I see a nasty conflict in which both sides are guilty of despicable acts. Yet all we ever hear about in this thread is Russia's crimes.

[MOD EDIT: preview imagine is rather gory. Spoilered now. - Alpharius]
Spoiler:



How the feth can you people side with a government that does this to its own people??



Oh please, do go on, tell me all about it.

You might also want to remember the part where the current president won a majority in the East as well as the West, despite incentives for the Separatists to sabotage the referendum. You also, also might want to remember that, while democratically elected, Yanukovych's term conveniently saw his biggest political opponent sentenced to jail for "abuse of power".

Would I prefer it if Ukraine didn't kill civilians in bombing runs? Absolutely. I don't think anyone of us in this thread wants civilian casualties in any situation (except Frazzled, Dachshundskrieg and all that). However, given the fact that Russia doesn't have an interest in letting the opportunity pass by peacefully, I don't see how they have much choice. Any negotiations would end with Ukraine having to bow to some sort of Russian demands, which would violate the national sovereignty of Ukraine.

Just as a hypothetical question, if there were to be a ceasefire and negotiations, what would be a reasonable deal? If it turns out that the separatists have been in minority, how is Kiev supposed to get them to disarm? They've obviously proven that they don't mind using force to get their way, after all.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/23 00:45:55


Post by: Jihadin


Frazz and me awhile back on this goat rope of a thread predicted Putin will pocket Eastern Ukraine in six months....like 90 days left or something


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/23 05:02:17


Post by: Ketara


Just to respond to a number of things posted recently:-

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:This ain't a simple Black & White case of "Russia = BAD. West & Friends = GOOD" like some people here seem to think. I see a nasty conflict in which both sides are guilty of despicable acts. Yet all we ever hear about in this thread is Russia's crimes.


Hardly. There have been a number of people jumping on both sides of the debate, and a few people, like myself, who've shifted one way and another as facts have emerged. Playing the persecution card as a trump card doesn't work too well as a result.

The West really isn't all that different to Russia when it comes to stoking up violent conflicts to pursue our agenda's and national interests. We just disguise our motives better and dress it up as liberal interventionism and all that BS.


There's certainly an aspect of realpolitik to everything the West does at the end of the day, but I do believe that a large number of our politicians do tend to have liberal/human rights aspects floating around somewhere in their mind as they make their decisions. Often they do ignore those things when it comes to the crunch, but I think that the fact that they are present makes a difference.

Sigvatr wrote:Secondly: the Russia-supported rebels CHOSE this war, not Ukraine.


Not quite. There was a revolution in Kiev. It wouldn't be the first time a region has broken away in a civil war (America anyone? )
But whether or not that excuses the current behaviour of Russia is another kettle of fish altogether.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Stop taking MH170 out of context, its disingenuous. The reason why the Rebels are shooting down aircraft in the first place is to defend against the Ukraine Government's brutal bombing campaign.


It's true that the rebels are in the middle of a civil war, and so a certain amount of latitude can be given. Casualties happen in war. But again, Russia's actions in the region on the moral spectrum altogether is a different ball game altogether.

This is War. This is what happens to victims in War. To all the people up in arms about Russia supposedly shooting down MH170 and killing all those Western citizens. Well this is what the Ukraine Government is doing to East Ukrainians.


I don't think you can quite just shrug off the deaths of hundreds of foreign nationals not involved as 'OHWELL, WAR!' Our citizens were on that plane, and had no connection to the conflict. Collateral damage is tragic , and does occur. If a plane went down for flying over Northern Iraq right now because it was shot down by ISIL, people would not be going, 'Those poor Sunni rebels, being blamed by the world when they're just defending themselves!' But conversely, it was shot down accidentally by the Kurds, the world would be far more excusing.

Ultimately, you have to look at where the conflict is now, who the players are, and why they are fighting. And right now, it's reasonably clear that Russia is pulling the strings on this one, to unnecessarily extend the conflict for their own gain. It's a conflict that actually no longer needs to happen. And that, my friend, is what makes the shooting down of the airliner a point worth raising.

Iron_Captain wrote:The pro-Russian protesters did not start this war. The pro-Western protesters did when they staged an illegal coup against the democratic government of Ukraine. The illegitimate interim-government did when they sent police, tanks and soldiers against what up to that point had been peaceful protesters. Peacefully occupying a government building is a sign of protest and an attempt to force negotiations, not an official declaration of war as you seem to think.


I would be inclined to agree with Iron_Captain as an initial analysis from some time back, but this conflict has moved on from that initial stage now. They're no longer the Kiev administration, they have become the Ukrainian Government, de jure as well as de facto. You can't quite refer to them in the same light any more.

Sigvatr wrote:It's a war Ukraine did not choose, but was forced into. It's a war that is only going on because Russia is secretly supporting rebels hiding among civilians.


Ukraine was not 'forced into' anything really. The circumstances grew out of civil unrest, which evolved into a revolution, which in turn sparked more civil unrest. So I think your first point is inaccurate. When the Kiev Administration (as it was at the time), started demanding obedience and threatening to kill the Eastern rebels, they were bang out of order, and there was a reason that the Army wouldn't fight.

But that was then. This is now. Poroshenko was legitimately elected. Control has been re-established. The only reason the civil strife continues now, is because Russia wants it to do so. So your second point is more accurate,

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Right, and we the West are supporting and encouraging the overthrow of governments throughout the world, leaving power vacuums and civil war in the wake. I really don't see why its wrong when Russia does it, but OK when we do it.


Countries have different motivations for doing things at different times. Sometimes, they do so the same thing for different reasons. Sometimes not. But you can't just point to events that occurred in the past and say, 'they did the same thing once and didn't get blamed for it!' as justification. Each case must be judged on its own merits and in the light of contemporary affairs.

Almighty Walrus wrote:Would I prefer it if Ukraine didn't kill civilians in bombing runs? Absolutely. I don't think anyone of us in this thread wants civilian casualties in any situation (except Frazzled, Dachshundskrieg and all that). However, given the fact that Russia doesn't have an interest in letting the opportunity pass by peacefully, I don't see how they have much choice. Any negotiations would end with Ukraine having to bow to some sort of Russian demands, which would violate the national sovereignty of Ukraine.


This is where I stand, bar the casual acceptance that acceding to some Russian concerns is somehow inconceivable and infringes upon Ukrainian sovereignty.They ultimately have two choices:-

-They can sit down the Russians, hammer some acceptable terms, and come to an arrangement that takes their neighbours concerns into consideration, and allows them to end the conflict without the loss of further lives.
-They can drive into Eastern Ukraine, root out the rebels forcibly, seal the border, treat the Russians as the new Public Enemy No.1, and cut all ties.

Because of Crimea and the fact that Western Ukrainians heavily dominate the current institution, they're taking Option No.2. I don't think its particularly pragmatic, in either realpolitik terms, or moral ones. Frankly, I think them fools for choosing the road they have because it will severely impact their future circumstances in many negative ways that they could have avoided.

But ultimately? On the moral scale, it's still about thirty points higher than the Russians right now.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/23 08:25:09


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ketara wrote:
But ultimately? On the moral scale, it's still about thirty points higher than the Russians right now.
We have Crimea

But in all seriousness, I still fail to see how bombing civilians is more moral than sending humanitarian aid convoys. Russia is fuelling the conflict, that is beyond doubt, but it is a conflict that would not even have existed if the Ukrainian government had taken a different path. Surely starting a conflict is even worse than fuelling one?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/23 08:46:54


Post by: Hordini


It depends on why the conflict was started.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/23 10:02:05


Post by: Ketara


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
But ultimately? On the moral scale, it's still about thirty points higher than the Russians right now.
We have Crimea

But in all seriousness, I still fail to see how bombing civilians is more moral than sending humanitarian aid convoys. Russia is fuelling the conflict, that is beyond doubt, but it is a conflict that would not even have existed if the Ukrainian government had taken a different path. Surely starting a conflict is even worse than fuelling one?


Because whilst the Ukrainian Government is bombing civilians, the Donetsk rebels are torturing people, and fuelling conflict. And in many cases, a large proportion of the 'Donetsk Rebels' are Russian. Some are cossacks, some are ultra-nationalists, some are soldiers. But whatever their motives for being there, they are foreign nationals. Foreign nationals trying to impose a new rule.

When a foreign power is actively sending its citizens to take up arms in your country, you are entirely justified in rallying the troops to throw them out. It's a question of the responsibilities of a Government. Sure, some civilians may die. But the alternative is abandoning them to live under Russian partisan rule. So you have to look at the bigger picture.

I believe that the alternative (negotiating with Russia) would be both the more humane and practical alternative right now. Russia is next door and not going anywhere. Trying to sever all those economic, political, and cultural ties, whilst at the same time stirring up a lot of ill will amongst your own countrymen would seem to be worse choice to make here. It guarantees a hostile power on your border, short to mid term economic hardship, and potential terrorist groups forming within the country because you shelled their relatives. Simply throwing the army at the problem is short-sighted, and will cause more problems then it solves, even if you succeed.

If the Ukrainian Government was less dominated by Western Ukrainians hellbent on avenging the loss of Crimea, they'd see that sensible option would be to promise Russia whatever it wants for the next year and a half, and get the Donetsk Rebels disbanded. Then, once you've done that, and spent the next two years solidifying your grip on power and legitimacy, you slowly move away from whatever pledges you made to Russia, and towards the EU.

The key to international relations is to identify your long-term goals clearly, and then gear all your short/mid-term objectives towards it (lying, manipulation, and political manoeuvring are all part of the process) . The Ukrainian Government is working on the short term (get these Russians out!), and it's going to come back and bite them severely in the arse. They're quite simply a bunch of amateurs when it comes to the Great Game. Watching them trying to machinate against Putin resembles an arthritic octopus trying to tango with Sammy Davis Jnr.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 00:04:09


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Technically two days old news now, but whatever:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28901386

http://www.dw.de/lithuanian-diplomat-murdered-in-eastern-ukraine/a-17872768

Lithuania's saying that their honorary consul was kidnapped and murdered in Luhansk.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 01:26:39


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Ketara wrote:
....they'd see that sensible option would be to promise Russia whatever it wants for the next year and a half, and get the Donetsk Rebels disbanded.


The problem is that according to Vladamir Putin what Russia wants is a return to the old USSR. At the very least, they want the Eastern Ukraine and it's gas fields to be lining Russia's pockets, not the pockets of the people of the Ukraine. I don't know how many of the rest of you have noticed, but if you break out a map of Ukraine's petrochemical resources and the areas that have miraculously sprouted all sorts of insurgents and revolutionaries, it's an astonishing coincidence.

Perhaps ground containing natural gas just naturally produces a populace with pro Russian sympathies who are absolutely eager to hand over their property to Gazprom and for some reason don't speak Ukrainian, but rather Yugoslavian and Russian dialects?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 05:15:49


Post by: chaos0xomega


Baronlveagh, that might not be too far from the truth, it might just be that oil/gas rich regions just cause heightened aggression, y'know, like something in the water? just look at places like Iraq, Iran, and Texas


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 05:19:28


Post by: d-usa


Isn't the US the top oil and gas producing nation now? That would explain stuff...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 06:08:33


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


chaos0xomega wrote:
Baronlveagh, that might not be too far from the truth, it might just be that oil/gas rich regions just cause heightened aggression, y'know, like something in the water? just look at places like Iraq, Iran, and Texas



I read an interesting article a long while back, wherein the author (who was apparently was a very prominent study-er of people... forgot what the hell theyre called) broke all of humanity down into two basic categories: people of the desert, and people of the forest. The desert people, by necessity have to be more warlike and violent, because they have fewer resources available to them; Whereas the people of the forest tend to be more sedentary, content to work farms/ranches and tend to have less violence directly in them.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 07:48:46


Post by: Bromsy


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


You moralise, and condemn Russia for supposedly shooting down a civilian airliner (when the evidence suggests that it was Ukrainian Rebels who shot it down, not Russians).

But THIS is why the Rebels are operating AA systems, and shooting down aircraft. To fight back, and defend themselves against airstrikes, that seem to be killing as many Ukrainian civilians as Ukrainian Rebels.


Ah yes, those pesky 30,000 foot plus, straight line non course deviating bombing runs. So clever.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 09:34:50


Post by: Sigvatr


 d-usa wrote:
Isn't the US the top oil and gas producing nation now? That would explain stuff...


Yep. But repeating the old "ZEY JUST WANT WAR FOR ZE OILZ" stereotype is much easier than actually thinking


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 09:47:35


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Bromsy wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


You moralise, and condemn Russia for supposedly shooting down a civilian airliner (when the evidence suggests that it was Ukrainian Rebels who shot it down, not Russians).

But THIS is why the Rebels are operating AA systems, and shooting down aircraft. To fight back, and defend themselves against airstrikes, that seem to be killing as many Ukrainian civilians as Ukrainian Rebels.


Ah yes, those pesky 30,000 foot plus, straight line non course deviating bombing runs. So clever.


When the missile systems are operated by poorly trained rebels and insurgents, do you really think they can tell the difference?

MY170 was a case of gross incompetence by combatants who believed they were shooting at a military aircraft.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2514/08/24 18:08:50


Post by: Iron_Captain


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
....they'd see that sensible option would be to promise Russia whatever it wants for the next year and a half, and get the Donetsk Rebels disbanded.


The problem is that according to Vladamir Putin what Russia wants is a return to the old USSR. At the very least, they want the Eastern Ukraine and it's gas fields to be lining Russia's pockets, not the pockets of the people of the Ukraine. I don't know how many of the rest of you have noticed, but if you break out a map of Ukraine's petrochemical resources and the areas that have miraculously sprouted all sorts of insurgents and revolutionaries, it's an astonishing coincidence.

Perhaps ground containing natural gas just naturally produces a populace with pro Russian sympathies who are absolutely eager to hand over their property to Gazprom and for some reason don't speak Ukrainian, but rather Yugoslavian and Russian dialects?
Eastern Ukraine is rich in resources, that is true. But it is nothing that Russia needs or does not already have. Russia has gas fields that are ten times larger in Siberia. If Russia really would have wanted those resources, they would have done the same thing they did in Crimea. Crimea was an essential area to Russia, Eastern Ukraine is not.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Baronlveagh, that might not be too far from the truth, it might just be that oil/gas rich regions just cause heightened aggression, y'know, like something in the water? just look at places like Iraq, Iran, and Texas



I read an interesting article a long while back, wherein the author (who was apparently was a very prominent study-er of people... forgot what the hell theyre called) broke all of humanity down into two basic categories: people of the desert, and people of the forest. The desert people, by necessity have to be more warlike and violent, because they have fewer resources available to them; Whereas the people of the forest tend to be more sedentary, content to work farms/ranches and tend to have less violence directly in them.
Strange than, that Russia is covered with so much forest.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 19:21:20


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Eastern Ukraine is rich in resources, that is true. But it is nothing that Russia needs or does not already have. Russia has gas fields that are ten times larger in Siberia. If Russia really would have wanted those resources, they would have done the same thing they did in Crimea. Crimea was an essential area to Russia, Eastern Ukraine is not.


Those Siberian fields which are, IIRC, not really fully developed, require a great deal of maintenance, and do not threaten Russia's near monopoly on natural gas to Europe?

Let's see, create fake rebels, pretend that your armed forces have nothing to do with it, take over a rich resource producing area with them and deport or kill anyone who gets in the way..

This is different from Crimea how?

Speaking of bizarre Ukrainian news....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28919683#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa

Seems it's time to march the prisoners in front of the public to remind them who's in charge. Joe Stalin would be proud. after all, who cares about war crimes these days, am I right?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 19:31:32


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Eastern Ukraine is rich in resources, that is true. But it is nothing that Russia needs or does not already have. Russia has gas fields that are ten times larger in Siberia. If Russia really would have wanted those resources, they would have done the same thing they did in Crimea. Crimea was an essential area to Russia, Eastern Ukraine is not.


Those Siberian fields which are, IIRC, not really fully developed, require a great deal of maintenance, and do not threaten Russia's near monopoly on natural gas to Europe?

Let's see, create fake rebels, pretend that your armed forces have nothing to do with it, take over a rich resource producing area with them and deport or kill anyone who gets in the way..

This is different from Crimea how?

Speaking of bizarre Ukrainian news....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28919683#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa

Seems it's time to march the prisoners in front of the public to remind them who's in charge. Joe Stalin would be proud. after all, who cares about war crimes these days, am I right?


Like when captured and beaten Police officers were paraded in front of cameras in Kiev.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/24 19:57:11


Post by: Iron_Captain


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Eastern Ukraine is rich in resources, that is true. But it is nothing that Russia needs or does not already have. Russia has gas fields that are ten times larger in Siberia. If Russia really would have wanted those resources, they would have done the same thing they did in Crimea. Crimea was an essential area to Russia, Eastern Ukraine is not.


Those Siberian fields which are, IIRC, not really fully developed, require a great deal of maintenance, and do not threaten Russia's near monopoly on natural gas to Europe?

Let's see, create fake rebels, pretend that your armed forces have nothing to do with it, take over a rich resource producing area with them and deport or kill anyone who gets in the way..

This is different from Crimea how?
In Crimea, Russian marines secured airports after which a full-scale Russian army moved in and kicked the Ukrainians out. If they had done the same thing in Eastern Ukraine, it would already have been Western Russia by now. The resources in Eastern Ukraine are insignificant compared to those in Siberia. If Russia really wanted Eastern Ukraine like they wanted Crimea, we would already have seen an invasion by now, covert or not. So far the only thing we have seen are angry Ukrainian rebels, Cossacks and volunteers from Russia (and some from Serbia as well) some of whom may be working for the Russian government, but no evidence of that has been provided yet. Very much unlike Crimea, where it was clear from the start there were Russian marines involved. The masked soldiers in Crimea were mostly armed with modern weapons and equipment from Russia, while the seperatists in Eastern Ukrain do not seem to have anything that the Ukrainian army also does not have.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Speaking of bizarre Ukrainian news....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28919683#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa

Seems it's time to march the prisoners in front of the public to remind them who's in charge. Joe Stalin would be proud. after all, who cares about war crimes these days, am I right?
Parading prisoners around is a war crime?
What is so bizarre about it? The seperatists have lost a lot of territory, and Donetsk and Luhansk are constantly under attack. The seperatists want to show the people (and themselves) that they also have success. Parading captured enemies around is a good way to show your success and thus it is often done in wartime. Another important reason is the symbolism, as today was Ukraine's independence day. It was a mockery of the military parades in Kiev. Don't know what would be so bizarre about it.
'Joe' Stalin would have sent those prisoners to workcamps to never let them out again, if he would not have them executed first. No offense, but comparisons to Stalin (or Hitler for that matter) hardly ever make sense.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 0046/08/01 20:28:23


Post by: Ketara


 BaronIveagh wrote:

The problem is that according to Vladamir Putin what Russia wants is a return to the old USSR. At the very least, they want the Eastern Ukraine and it's gas fields to be lining Russia's pockets, not the pockets of the people of the Ukraine.


Not quite. Putin wants to know that the only power with a road directly to Moscow isn't directly affiliated with a power likely to join the nascent EU. He also wants a few economic treaties aligned with Russia. Security and &economic concerns in other words. Things that are...negotiable.

Conveniently enough, things that can be forgotten or overwritten in three years time when the governments grip is re-established.

I don't know how many of the rest of you have noticed, but if you break out a map of Ukraine's petrochemical resources and the areas that have miraculously sprouted all sorts of insurgents and revolutionaries, it's an astonishing coincidence.



That's because Ukraine's industry is primarily located on the Eastern side. It's not just petrochemical, its their entire manufacturing sector.

Putin chopped off Crimea because the risk of losing his Black Sea fleet base in the short-mid term was rising fast, and Russia could not afford for that to happen. But then the tactic he used to seize it worked so well that he thought, 'Well, turmoil seems to be continuing with little opposition, why not keep poking it along, and snaffle as much of the rest of the country as I can whilst it lasts?'

But now that turmoil has stopped. As said many dozens of pages ago, Eastern Ukraine was a little extra something to slip in the bag if it wasn't too troublesome. Putin is a political opportunist. He might look like a Bond villain, and he plays international relations reasonably well, but he's not a genius (as the press would imply). He'll settle for escaping from this current IR predicament in exchange for some well worded concessions. He'll be aware there'll be shucked as soon as its feasible, but it gives him a way out.

And that's the key really. The more the West tightens sanctions and admonishes him like an unruly schoolchild, the more he'll dig in. If Ukraine actually showed a shred of political realism, we could start digging out of this hole.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/25 01:12:22


Post by: chaos0xomega


Iron_Captain, what you miss is that a Ukraine without its manufacturing sector is a highly unstable rump state, from which one of three eventualities will occur:

1. It will collapse allowing Russia to take the rest.
2. It will continue to exist as a weak vassal state and fill the very desirable role of 'buffer' between Russia and Europe
3. It will be propped up by the west indefinitely and thus drain western nations of resources that could be better utilized elsewhere. Further, the loss of eastern Ukraine puts Ukraine further away from both NATO and EU membership which further keeps Ukraine in the 'buffer zone' as they may not like Russia, but the West won't exactly welcome them either.

Its a win/win/win for Russia.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/25 01:44:38


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


I think #3 is likely regardless of what happens with east Ukraine - Ukraine being dependent on the west.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/25 07:17:47


Post by: Iron_Captain


chaos0xomega wrote:
Iron_Captain, what you miss is that a Ukraine without its manufacturing sector is a highly unstable rump state, from which one of three eventualities will occur:

1. It will collapse allowing Russia to take the rest.
2. It will continue to exist as a weak vassal state and fill the very desirable role of 'buffer' between Russia and Europe
3. It will be propped up by the west indefinitely and thus drain western nations of resources that could be better utilized elsewhere. Further, the loss of eastern Ukraine puts Ukraine further away from both NATO and EU membership which further keeps Ukraine in the 'buffer zone' as they may not like Russia, but the West won't exactly welcome them either.

Its a win/win/win for Russia.
Ukraine is a highly unstable rump state even with the Eastern part attached I mean, they only exist like 1991 and have already been through 3 revolutions and a civil war now.

1. Seems very unlikely, as it would leave no buffer between Russia and the West. And Russia really, really likes buffer states. It would also force those annoying, rebellious Western Ukrainians into Russia, and no one is waiting for that.
2. That is what Ukraine mostly has been until now and what they are likely to remain in the future. Ukraine is too dependent on Russia. After the crisis is over, they will have little choice but to improve relations again. And as long as Ukraine does not become part of EU or NATO, Russia will be happy.
3. The West will probably continue to provide some aid, but it will stop at some point. Ukraine would require an obscene amount of money to get out of its troubles, and in this time of economical recession, Western governments are not likely to waste so much money on an area their voters don't really care about. Russia will like this option less though, as the more Ukraine depends on Russia for everything, the more obedient vassals they will make.

But again, I say: If Russia would have wanted to annex the Eastern Ukraine, they would have already done so by now.
Russia does not need the Eastern Ukraine. There is nothing there Russia needs, and Ukraine has been further destabilised and shown it won't be able to leave Russia. They will continue to play buffer state (what did they expect? Their country is named 'The Border' after all) and remain poor and very far from Nato and EU membership. Russia will be happy while the Ukrainians will be not happy. Yay status quo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just heard that Poroshenko posted on Twitter that he has disbanded the Ukrainian parliament.
Apparently there are going to be early elections.
https://twitter.com/poroshenko/statuses/503976211891367936


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/25 22:44:01


Post by: Jihadin


Yep. Ukraine doing the brown swirl flush


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/25 23:30:15


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Is that practical, with an ongoing rebellion & insurgency? How much of the country do the rebels currently control?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/25 23:38:45


Post by: Jihadin


Doneskt it seems and territory east of it to the Russian border I think


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 02:05:58


Post by: chaos0xomega


I'll just leave this here...

https://news.vice.com/article/russian-weapons-convoy-spotted-entering-ukraine-as-poroshenko-dissolves-parliament?utm_source=vicenewsfb


Russian Weapons Convoy Spotted Entering Ukraine as Poroshenko Dissolves Parliament

After weeks of tension, Ukraine seemed to relax when a controversial Russian humanitarian aid convoy finally unloaded its supplies in Luhansk on Saturday. Fearing a surprise, Trojan horse-style attack from Russia, Ukrainian officials had been cagey about letting the more than 200 trucks enter the country, making them wait at the border for over a week. Eventually, the convoy entered Ukraine without permission anyway.

Now there are reports from the Associated Press that a second Russian procession has entered rebel-held Ukraine, this one filled with military weaponry.

AP reporters stated that they witnessed "large convoys of military hardware" travel through the rebel-held town of Krasnodon, and on towards where separatists and Ukrainian troops are fighting, on three evenings between August 19-23.

The Ukrainian government also claimed that about 10 Russian tanks, two armored vehicles, and two trucks had entered the country on Monday, and that a clash with government forces had ensued.

More than 2,000 people have died in eastern Ukraine and at least 344,000 have fled the region since fighting began in the spring, according to UN figures. With ever-increasing casualties, food shortages, and electricity cuts, civilian aid is desperately needed. The humanitarian aid convoy from Russia that arrived in Luhansk on Saturday was reportedly comprised of 1,800 tons of medical supplies and food.

Earlier today, Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko also voted to dissolve parliament and called for early elections on October 26, according to a statement on his website. Poroshenko cited the collapse of Ukraine's coalition government, claimed that pro-rebel MPs remained supporters of former President Viktor Yanukovych, and referred to polls supporting early elections as reasons for the decision.

Poroshenko also claimed the move was legal, citing article 90 of the Ukrainian Constitution, which allows the president to halt operations if a coalition government has lapsed for over a month. According to him, the coalition government had collapsed on July 24.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 11:28:15


Post by: Sigvatr


HAHAHAHA.

Russian paratroopers have been arrested in Ukraine, confirmed by the Kreml. He, I am serious, claims that they crossed the border BY ACCIDENT.

This is hilarious.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 11:30:54


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Putin's finally lost his mind then.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 11:52:38


Post by: Frazzled


 Jihadin wrote:
Frazz and me awhile back on this goat rope of a thread predicted Putin will pocket Eastern Ukraine in six months....like 90 days left or something


Yep. Right on schedule.
In Soviet RUssia, Putin Bare Chests YOU!

Ukrainians are now saying they have captured Russian paratroopers.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 14:14:45


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Putin is finally getting caught out... he's lost his mojo.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 14:23:29


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Putin is finally getting caught out... he's lost his mojo.
Nah, he is just saying they got lost and crossed the border accidently while on patrol. That seems a pretty easy thing to do, considering the amount of times Ukrainian troops 'accidently' got lost and ended up on the Russian side of the border.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 14:27:31


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Putin is finally getting caught out... he's lost his mojo.
Nah, he is just saying they got lost and crossed the border accidently while on patrol. That seems a pretty easy thing to do, considering the amount of times Ukrainian troops 'accidently' got lost and ended up on the Russian side of the border.


And accidentally shell Russian villages?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 17:36:21


Post by: loki old fart


Here is the BBCs page on it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28934213

 Filename BBC News - Captured Russian troops 'in Ukraine by accident'.pdf [Disk] Download
 Description
 File size 407 Kbytes



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 17:39:34


Post by: kronk


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

No, we're supposed to condemn BOTH sides and coerce them by economic sanctions and diplomatic pressure to come to a negotiating table.

Not pour gasoline on the fire by encouraging the side we happen to like the most, to kill the side we like the least.

Who is the one with the fethed up morals here?


Anybody who condemns one side for acts of murder, whilst cheering on the other equally murderous side. Which appears to be 3/4 of the people posting in this thread.


1. No one ever had any fun or made any money by not choosing a side.
2. This isn't a case of "Everyone is a dick, so slap everyone's hand and call it even." Not by a long shot.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 22:42:15


Post by: BaronIveagh


 kronk wrote:

1. No one ever had any fun or made any money by not choosing a side.



That's not true. the most money is to be made arming ALL sides.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 22:44:51


Post by: Low_K


After the initial judgement of the disaster, I started thinking about the facts. Some clips on YouTube got me thinking and the history of conspiracy theories is always great to delve into.

Here is something for you;

What makes you believe the Seperatists did actually shoot down MH17?

You have to ask yourself who benefits the most of the disaster. What if the Ukranians shot down the plane, backed by the US, blamed it on the Seperatists and Russia who got sanctions slapped in their face (which the US doesn't suffer from that much). Think about it; What evidence is there?

- An intercepted conversation between alleged Seperatists- wire-tapped by the Ukrainian Secret Service. This could be easily doctored.
- The US claiming to have sattelite images of the attack; They haven't released the images yet. Why?
- Someone conveniently recorded a missile launcher being transported, missing one missile towards the Russian border. Who says it drove to the Russian border? Maybe it was an Ukrainian missile launcher videotaped by an Ukrainian official. It's not like there were signs on the video of "Entering Russia".
- If the disaster crews/OVSE were denied access as it being too dangerous, why could there be journalists from day one and even relatives at a later date of one of the victims walk freely around the site?
- The famous picture of the Seperatist holding the stuffed animal as trophy shocked the world. It is after you see the whole footage you see it in perspective. This is what the media can do to cloud judgement. That picture is a prime example. Deliberate posting?
- What do the Seperatists gain from denying they shot the plane down? If they would have said; "it was a mistake, we thought it was a military plane" would the world not be more forgiving towards them? Denying the allegations doesn't help their cause and damages the little trust the world has in the Seperatists and Russia
.
Let's face it, all the evidence points to Russia, yet, all the evidence is supplied by the US (who don't have a trustworthy reputation and I am sure you can remember the WMD's in Iraq, which the whole world believed at the time) and the Ukraine. The US suffers the least from sanctions against Russia, Russia suffers the most as well as Europe (although not as much as Russia).

So what could be the reason the US and Ukraine would go through such a length to frame Russia? Is Israel maybe involved? Was it not Israel who invaded the Gaza Strip the same day the plane was shot down, making that news disappearing into the background?

Were the pharmaceutical companies involved? There were many AIDS researchers on the plane, one of which would unveil a breakthrough on the convention. Maybe a cure? If it was so, the pharmaceutical companies would lose a lot of money from supplying the medication patients now need.

I think we will never know who did it.

I am not a supporter or hater of Russia nor a supporter or hater of the US. The whole situation is strange to say the least. The media pictures an image the majority believes. Many countries follow the US in their intelligence. "The CIA says the Russians did it, so it must be the truth!"

If people can supply counter-arguments of the evidence posted in this post, please do.

And yes, I am a nut for conspiracy theories.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 22:53:09


Post by: whembly


 Low_K wrote:
After the initial judgement of the disaster, I started thinking about the facts. Some clips on YouTube got me thinking and the history of conspiracy theories is always great to delve into.

Here is something for you;

What makes you believe the Seperatists did actually shoot down MH17?

You have to ask yourself who benefits the most of the disaster. What if the Ukranians shot down the plane, backed by the US, blamed it on the Seperatists and Russia who got sanctions slapped in their face (which the US doesn't suffer from that much). Think about it; What evidence is there?

- An intercepted conversation between alleged Seperatists- wire-tapped by the Ukrainian Secret Service. This could be easily doctored.
- The US claiming to have sattelite images of the attack; They haven't released the images yet. Why?
- Someone conveniently recorded a missile launcher being transported, missing one missile towards the Russian border. Who says it drove to the Russian border? Maybe it was an Ukrainian missile launcher videotaped by an Ukrainian official. It's not like there were signs on the video of "Entering Russia".
- If the disaster crews/OVSE were denied access as it being too dangerous, why could there be journalists from day one and even relatives at a later date of one of the victims walk freely around the site?
- The famous picture of the Seperatist holding the stuffed animal as trophy shocked the world. It is after you see the whole footage you see it in perspective. This is what the media can do to cloud judgement. That picture is a prime example. Deliberate posting?
- What do the Seperatists gain from denying they shot the plane down? If they would have said; "it was a mistake, we thought it was a military plane" would the world not be more forgiving towards them? Denying the allegations doesn't help their cause and damages the little trust the world has in the Seperatists and Russia
.
Let's face it, all the evidence points to Russia, yet, all the evidence is supplied by the US (who don't have a trustworthy reputation and I am sure you can remember the WMD's in Iraq, which the whole world believed at the time) and the Ukraine. The US suffers the least from sanctions against Russia, Russia suffers the most as well as Europe (although not as much as Russia).

So what could be the reason the US and Ukraine would go through such a length to frame Russia? Is Israel maybe involved? Was it not Israel who invaded the Gaza Strip the same day the plane was shot down, making that news disappearing into the background?

Were the pharmaceutical companies involved? There were many AIDS researchers on the plane, one of which would unveil a breakthrough on the convention. Maybe a cure? If it was so, the pharmaceutical companies would lose a lot of money from supplying the medication patients now need.

I think we will never know who did it.

I am not a supporter or hater of Russia nor a supporter or hater of the US. The whole situation is strange to say the least. The media pictures an image the majority believes. Many countries follow the US in their intelligence. "The CIA says the Russians did it, so it must be the truth!"

If people can supply counter-arguments of the evidence posted in this post, please do.

And yes, I am a nut for conspiracy theories.

Whoa... that's too nutty even for me.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 23:11:29


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Low_K wrote:
After the initial judgement of the disaster, I started thinking about the facts. Some clips on YouTube got me thinking and the history of conspiracy theories is always great to delve into...


You lost the plot when you started talking about Israel and pharmaceutical companies.

As for the US faking evidence and pinning the blame on the Separatists... I think thats unlikely. Occam's Razor indicates that it was a team of poorly trained incompetent Seperatists who shot MH170 down using an AA missile system stolen from the Ukrainian military, or perhaps supplied by Russia (which is not yet proven beyond reasonable doubt).

Though, gak like the Dodgy Dossier and all their lies over mass surveillance, extra-ordinary rendition, use of torture etc means that we can never truly trust our own Governments.

Do I think Western Governments are capable and willing to fake or distort evidence and pin the blame for certain events on their Enemy du Jour to further their agenda's? Definitely. Its happened before, in Iraq for instance, and will happen again.

But not in this case.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 23:23:59


Post by: Low_K


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Low_K wrote:
After the initial judgement of the disaster, I started thinking about the facts. Some clips on YouTube got me thinking and the history of conspiracy theories is always great to delve into...


You lost the plot when you started talking about Israel and pharmaceutical companies.

As for the US faking evidence and pinning the blame on the Separatists... I think thats unlikely. Occam's Razor indicates that it was a team of poorly trained incompetent Seperatists who shot MH170 down using an AA missile system stolen from the Ukrainian military, or perhaps supplied by Russia (which is not yet proven beyond reasonable doubt).

Though, gak like the Dodgy Dossier and all their lies over mass surveillance, extra-ordinary rendition, use of torture etc means that we can never truly trust our own Governments.

Do I think Western Governments are capable and willing to fake or distort evidence and pin the blame for certain events on their Enemy du Jour to further their agenda's? Definitely. Its happened before, in Iraq for instance, and will happen again.

But not in this case.


What makes you so sure in this case? You state that Governments lie in order to fulfill their own agenda's, and I agree fully, so what makes you so sure US/Ukrainian Governments don't lie about this disaster?

And yes, Israel and the pharmaceutical companies is a far stretch, but regarding the latter; Those companies earn a hell of a lot money on diseases without a cure. Companies can go very far ensuring they keep their hefty profits


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 23:25:24


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Occam's Razor. Look it up.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/26 23:37:11


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Low_K wrote:

If people can supply counter-arguments of the evidence posted in this post, please do.


The separatists posted on Twitter that they'd shot down a Ukranian military aircraft, taunting Ukraine about it. That post dissapeared rather quickly once people started realizing that a passenger aircraft'd been hit.

 Low_K wrote:

- An intercepted conversation between alleged Seperatists- wire-tapped by the Ukrainian Secret Service. This could be easily doctored.


True. Supporting evidence at best.

 Low_K wrote:

- The US claiming to have sattelite images of the attack; They haven't released the images yet. Why?


Because it's not in the US's interest to reveal images presumably taken from their spy satellites to Russia? Seeing as these are the satellites that are supposed to monitor ICBM launches, it makes no sense to reveal them. It obviously makes the evidence rather flimsy though.

 Low_K wrote:

- Someone conveniently recorded a missile launcher being transported, missing one missile towards the Russian border. Who says it drove to the Russian border? Maybe it was an Ukrainian missile launcher videotaped by an Ukrainian official. It's not like there were signs on the video of "Entering Russia".


Are you suggesting that the Ukranian army staged an escaping missile launcher in rebel-controlled territory during the middle of a civil war? I'm assuming you see how silly that seems?

 Low_K wrote:

- If the disaster crews/OVSE were denied access as it being too dangerous, why could there be journalists from day one and even relatives at a later date of one of the victims walk freely around the site?


Because neither the journalists nor the relatives are there in an official capacity. If some grieving relative gets hit by a stray mortar round it's tragic, if a recovery worker gets hit someone's responsible for having sent them there in the first place.

 Low_K wrote:
- The famous picture of the Seperatist holding the stuffed animal as trophy shocked the world. It is after you see the whole footage you see it in perspective. This is what the media can do to cloud judgement. That picture is a prime example. Deliberate posting?


Spoiler:


You're speculating, and what's worse you're speculating that media's trying to cloud judgment and then go on to draw conclusions without backing them up in the very same train of thought.

 Low_K wrote:

- What do the Seperatists gain from denying they shot the plane down? If they would have said; "it was a mistake, we thought it was a military plane" would the world not be more forgiving towards them? Denying the allegations doesn't help their cause and damages the little trust the world has in the Seperatists and Russia


They don't gain anything, but you're assuming whoever shot it down knew what they were shooting at and still shot.

You're doing a whole bunch of assumptions that, while theoretically possible, doesn't actually have any sort of supporting evidence other than speculation behind it.

EDIT: When both Shadow Captain and myself agree with eachother on something in this thread, odds are it's pretty reasonable.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/27 00:17:25


Post by: Low_K


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The separatists posted on Twitter that they'd shot down a Ukranian military aircraft, taunting Ukraine about it. That post dissapeared rather quickly once people started realizing that a passenger aircraft'd been hit.


Twitter is easily hacked, especially by a powerful organisation as the CIA

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


True. Supporting evidence at best.


Agreed

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Because it's not in the US's interest to reveal images presumably taken from their spy satellites to Russia? Seeing as these are the satellites that are supposed to monitor ICBM launches, it makes no sense to reveal them. It obviously makes the evidence rather flimsy though.


Aye it does.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Are you suggesting that the Ukranian army staged an escaping missile launcher in rebel-controlled territory during the middle of a civil war? I'm assuming you see how silly that seems?


What makes you think the footage is from Eastern Ukraine? All we can see is some village and a moving truck with a AA battery on top of it missing one missile. The footage could have been taken in a small village in Poland for all we know. There is no evidence the footage, which coveniently was released, is taken in the Eastern part of Ukraine. Give me proof that the footage is from the rebel controlled territory. Who gave you that information? Aye, the US and Ukrainian Governments. So it doesn't sound so silly methinks

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Because neither the journalists nor the relatives are there in an official capacity. If some grieving relative gets hit by a stray mortar round it's tragic, if a recovery worker gets hit someone's responsible for having sent them there in the first place.


Is a journalist any different than a recovery worker? A journalist is sent by his editor, the recovery worker by his/her supervisor. So I don't see that much difference between those two.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You're speculating, and what's worse you're speculating that media's trying to cloud judgment and then go on to draw conclusions without backing them up in the very same train of thought.


But the media forms our opinion. If you hear in the media that the Russians did it over and over again, you start to believe it as you "trust" the media to be independant. It is the same as Iron_Captain's views; As he is still young no doubt his opinion is formed by his parent(s), that's why is is so valiently defending Russia. Our opinions are formed by the media, unless you were there, you hear of the details frokm the media. And can the media be controlled? yes, as seen in Russia. Can it also be controlled in the "Free World"? Yes.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

They don't gain anything, but you're assuming whoever shot it down knew what they were shooting at and still shot.


Aye, that I am assuming. As I am assuming the conspiracy theory.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You're doing a whole bunch of assumptions that, while theoretically possible, doesn't actually have any sort of supporting evidence other than speculation behind it.


Which evidence does the so-called facts have? Those are given to you by the Government and media. Hardly a reliable source. So stating that the theories aren't supported by evidence is the same as stating the so-called facts aren't supported by evidsence as we weren't there. The facts as they are now are told by the media and Secret Services.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

EDIT: When both Shadow Captain and myself agree with eachother on something in this thread, odds are it's pretty reasonable.


Lol, glad to be of help in that department


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/27 01:00:38


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Low_K wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The separatists posted on Twitter that they'd shot down a Ukranian military aircraft, taunting Ukraine about it. That post dissapeared rather quickly once people started realizing that a passenger aircraft'd been hit.


Twitter is easily hacked, especially by a powerful organisation as the CIA


And yet the separatists have never once claimed it was hacked. Go figure.

It's like the people who believed the Moon Landings were faked. If there was any real evidence (that is not immediately refutable by scientists and experts) that the USA didn't land on the moon then why the hell was the USSR not shouting about it at the time?

If the Twitter was hacked, the separatists would've been screaming about it.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/27 01:17:29


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Low_K wrote:

What makes you believe the Seperatists did actually shoot down MH17?


Because in a warzone, gak happens?

Or,. possibly the video of a BUK m2 (A weapon platform the Seperatists admitted having) hauling ass for the Russian boarder 2 hours after the shoot down with about half it's missiles expended? Usually you don't remove your AA assets in a situation where the other side as air superiority.

We do know for a fact that Russia has been supplying the separatists with armor, and several BUK M2s were unaccounted for after a Russian supplied armored column entered the Ukraine. We know it was Russian, as the T 64's were fitting Kontact 5 reactive armor, on their turrets, which means they are NOT Ukrainian and limits their origins.

The Ukraine uses the following T-64s: T-64BM "Bulat" (which uses Knozh reactive armor), T-64BV (which uses Kontact1), T-64B (which lacks reactive armor). (Remember that many of the most iconic Russian tanks were in fact designed and built at the Locomotive Works.)

 Low_K wrote:

- Someone conveniently recorded a missile launcher being transported, missing one missile towards the Russian border. Who says it drove to the Russian border? Maybe it was an Ukrainian missile launcher videotaped by an Ukrainian official. It's not like there were signs on the video of "Entering Russia".


When the area was later over run there was no sign of the launcher. Radar records show the missile fired from Rebel controlled areas. While a false flag is possible, it would take one hell of a team to smuggle in something like a BUK deep inside enemy held territory unnoticed, and fire it, then make it vanish again. US SF would struggle to pull it off, due to the size of the BUK and the the fact that it's not exactly subtle when fired. To be blunt, no one for about a kilometer could possibly have missed it and that would have drawn a lot of hostile attention.

 Low_K wrote:

- If the disaster crews/OVSE were denied access as it being too dangerous, why could there be journalists from day one and even relatives at a later date of one of the victims walk freely around the site?


Because of mines and the fact that the debris was scattered over a wide enough area that not all of it was inside the hot zone. You're talking about a debris field several km wide.

 Low_K wrote:

- The famous picture of the Seperatist holding the stuffed animal as trophy shocked the world. It is after you see the whole footage you see it in perspective. This is what the media can do to cloud judgement. That picture is a prime example. Deliberate posting?


Welcome to War.

 Low_K wrote:

- What do the Seperatists gain from denying they shot the plane down? If they would have said; "it was a mistake, we thought it was a military plane" would the world not be more forgiving towards them? Denying the allegations doesn't help their cause and damages the little trust the world has in the Seperatists and Russia


IFF makes this sort of claim ring hollow, regardless of truth. That and giving powerful toys to under-trained yahoos would make Russia/the Separatists look weak, suggesting they lacked sufficiently trained soldiers



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/27 07:29:55


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Occam's Razor. Look it up.
It is foolish to blindly trust on Occam's Razor, especially in complicated stuff like politics. The simplest theory is not always the truth. Occam's Razor should only be applied when there are two theories that are both just as likely and are both supported by an equal amount of evidence.
In this case, there is a multitude of theories, with the one saying the seperatists accidently shot down the plane having the most evidence. Of course, the evidence may be fabricated, but that is impossible for us to say, so I still consider it the most likely scenario. Still, it is suspicious the seperatists keep denying it so strongly. Surely the world would have shown more favour on them if they had admitted to making a mistake?
All in all, I think it is impossible for us to definitely say who did it. There is too much shady stuff going on, and it is hard to distinguish truth from well-made fabrications and propaganda. Even the people in Eastern Ukraine themselves barely know what is going on (except that they are being bombed of course).

 BaronIveagh wrote:


When the area was later over run there was no sign of the launcher. Radar records show the missile fired from Rebel controlled areas.

The US has said so, but no one has actually seen those radar records. And there are also radar records (from the Russians of course) that show Ukrainian fighter jets near MH17.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/27 10:00:43


Post by: loki old fart


https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/118277640892186287482/wm/4/115153309158935597522/posts/17PAEkdMXZa



In the first video the launcher is being moved on a white commercial truck towards border.
Later videos show it on a military transporter, also heading towards border. They were in such a hurry they stopped to swap trucks.

In another video the same launcher was shown in position with Kiev military.
In yet another video it was still on the white truck driving through the Kiev controlled Ukraine at night.
That launcher has a better social life than some people I know.

Nice video of the good guys moving stuff to the front lines.



NOTE vehicles used.





Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 11:42:52


Post by: Ketara


It appears Putin is making his move. Poroshenko has gambled, and lost this round. Such a pity.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 12:03:51


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Ketara wrote:
It appears Putin is making his move. Poroshenko has gambled, and lost this round. Such a pity.


Please elaborate. Has something new happened? Are more Russian troops turning up in Ukraine?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 12:10:19


Post by: Frazzled


Check the news. Multiple reports of Russian units trying to open a supply corridor.

Its all going according to plan muahahahahah!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 12:23:50


Post by: Sigvatr


According to the Nato, there are "far more" than 1000 (!) Russian soldiers in Ukraine, fighting with the rebels.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 12:28:57


Post by: Khornholio


How many European neo-Nazis are in the Ukraine fighting? I know there are at least some from Sweden (maybe 20?) as reported earlier this month in the Swedish press online.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 12:31:59


Post by: Ashiraya


 Khornholio wrote:
How many European neo-Nazis are in the Ukraine fighting? I know there are at least some from Sweden (maybe 20?) as reported earlier this month in the Swedish press online.


Good. More of them there means less of them here.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 12:37:17


Post by: lliu


Sad, I wanted things to be better.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 12:57:24


Post by: Frazzled


lliu wrote:
Sad, I wanted things to be better.


From the Russian perspective, they are.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 15:31:45


Post by: d-usa


So a Russian tanks are entering Ukraine? Probably just lost...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 15:36:33


Post by: whembly


 d-usa wrote:
So a Russian tanks are entering Ukraine? Probably just lost...

It must be in their vodka for all of them to be that "lost".



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 16:26:30


Post by: Iron_Captain


Russia still denies the presence of its troops in the Ukraine.
The seperatists however have launched a major counter-offensive. They have captured a lot of territory in the past few days.
Meanwhile, the language in the Russian media is heating up considerably as they report success after success for the seperatists. Moste area between the Russian border and Donetsk is now again in seperatist hands.
While I have seen no evidence so far of Russian troops and armour directly active in Ukraine, this sudden reversal in fortunes for the seperatists does make me suspicous. We shall see how long this counter-offensive will remain succesful.

Here is some footage from fighting in the city of Ilovaysk, to the East of Donetsk that I managed to find with English subtitles:




Motorola is the nickname for Arsen Pavlov, one of the senior seperatist commanders of Donetsk. My cousin fights with him:






Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 17:21:14


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 Sigvatr wrote:
According to the Nato, there are "far more" than 1000 (!) Russian soldiers in Ukraine, fighting with the rebels.



Is that fighting with the rebels as in fighting against them... as in "stop fighting with your brother or i turn this car around!" or are they fighting WITH the rebels as in, they have joined up with the rebels?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 17:39:08


Post by: loki old fart


From the bbc. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28961080


pdf for our non british friends.







Russian media report 'invasion of Ukraine'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28965597



Attachments removed. Sorry you need to find a different host for these.
Reds8n




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 17:53:52


Post by: whembly



Russia invades, Obama expresses ‘concern’
Russian forces in two armored columns captured a key southeastern coastal town near the Russian border Thursday after Ukrainian forces retreated in the face of superior firepower, a Ukrainian military spokesman said.

The two Russian columns, including tanks and armored fighting vehicles, entered the town of Novoazovsk on the Sea of Azov after a battle in which Ukrainian army positions came under fire from Grad rockets launched from Russian territory, according to the spokesman, Col. Andriy Lysenko.

“Our border servicemen and guardsmen retreated as they did not have heavy equipment,” Lysenko said in a statement.

Ukrainian authorities have denounced the latest fighting as a Russian invasion of their territory, intended to prop up pro-Moscow separatists who have been losing ground to Ukrainian forces and to open a new front in the southeastern corner of Ukraine.

What was the Obama administration’s initial reaction? “These incursions indicate a Russian-directed counteroffensive is likely underway in Donetsk and Luhansk. Clearly, that is of deep concern to us,” a State Department spokeswoman said yesterday. She could not have been more inoffensive. Oh, the administration is also “concerned by the Russian Government’s unwillingness to tell the truth even as its soldiers are found 30 miles inside Ukraine. Russia is sending its young men into Ukraine but are telling – are not telling them where they’re going or telling their parents what they’re doing.” The spokeswoman further indicated that we wouldn’t change our policy of refusing to provide Ukraine with defensive weapons.

Plainly, Russian President Vladimir Putin has taken the measure of President Obama and found him to be no obstacle to re-creation of the Russian empire. Former assistant secretary of state Brian Hook observes: “Putin’s aggression is a direct challenge to the post-Cold War security order in Europe that America largely created. The President doesn’t seem to fully appreciate this, which is both strange and troubling.” But it’s not unexpected, given his track record. Of course, the concern goes beyond Ukraine or even the other former (soon to be current Russian territories?) Soviet states. “Don’t forget that how we handle Ukraine has repercussions outside of Ukraine,” warns Hook. “What conclusion do you think China is drawing as they watch Russia easily outmaneuver the West?” Probably the same one Iran, Syria and other bad actors have come to.

There is no better example of the ruinous Obama foreign policy than Ukraine. The president has issued empty threats, diminished sanctions and refused to allow Ukraine to protect itself. If you are the leader of a Baltic state, you’re probably and justifiably panicked. The president will no doubt issue more empty threats. But that doesn’t do Ukraine any good, and it surely won’t protect other potential victims. Hillary Clinton‘s reset policy, it seems, has been a complete failure. Or is she going to blame others for this one as well?


So... Obama is "concerned" about Russia invading (apparently in order to subjugate) another independent state.

Sound like euphemism for "meh".



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 17:55:50


Post by: Frazzled


I share Obama's "meh."


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 17:59:34


Post by: whembly


 Frazzled wrote:
I share Obama's "meh."

I was at first... but an actual invasion?

I'm not saying we need to to toe-to-toe... but, I think something more than "meh" is needed.

*shrug*


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:16:06


Post by: Frazzled


Nope not at all.

1. We did our bit for fifty years thank you.
2. This is Europe's fight, if even theirs.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:24:01


Post by: Sigvatr


I'd welcome our new American Overlords taking over Europe. All it takes to get rid of the enemy in the East!

Seriously, though, just put on the big-boy pants and really hurt Putin and his BFFs by extremely severe sanctions.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:30:06


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 Sigvatr wrote:
I'd welcome our new American Overlords taking over Europe. All it takes to get rid of the enemy in the East!



Well, all you guys would need is a strong leader with good public speaking skills, and to open up a few Boy Scout "camps"


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:31:40


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


chaos0xomega wrote:
http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/world/ukraine-crisis-russian-tanks-enter-ukraine-fire-missiles-at-border-post-1.2749066

100 years ago that would have been enough to start a world war


Good. Our leaders are finally learning the lessons of history.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:32:27


Post by: Jihadin


 Sigvatr wrote:
I'd welcome our new American Overlords taking over Europe. All it takes to get rid of the enemy in the East!

Seriously, though, just put on the big-boy pants and really hurt Putin and his BFFs by extremely severe sanctions.


SIGVATR!!!....actually wait...Germany has quite a few combat experience units...same as Poland, Romania, Finland, French Foreign Legion, Italy...to name a few..think Germany need to crank up a few hardcore Panzer Divisions...


Edit

What are we really going to do eh? Putin snags Ukraine but then we need their vote in the UN to deal with ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Keyword "Syria"


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:35:08


Post by: Sigvatr


Yeah, but Germany just as all of Europe learned their lesson.

Let the US fight a war, when it's over, blame them for being warmongers and when there's a new fire heating up...call them in to do the dirty work again! Ze clever German strategiz.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:37:47


Post by: Jihadin


 Sigvatr wrote:
Yeah, but Germany just as all of Europe learned their lesson.

Let the US fight a war, when it's over, blame them for being warmongers and when there's a new fire heating up...call them in to do the dirty work again! Ze clever German strategiz.




Negative. We're not getting involve being your flow of natural gas from Russia is flowing.......and Winter is Coming


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:39:37


Post by: Frazzled


Exactly.

No thanks. I'm down with Obama pulling a Europe and doing nothing on it.

Frankly NATO itself is dead.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:41:45


Post by: A Town Called Malus


The crisis is mainly mentioned in commentaries about Tuesday's talks in Minsk between the Russian and Ukrainian presidents, with Konstantin Bondarenko writing in Nezavisimaya Gazeta that "Vladimir Putin… showed he is not a bully and not a dictator" because "aggressors and dictators refuse to negotiate".


Strange, I seem to remember reading about certain negotiations between two moustachio'd men... something about dividing up Poland, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland...

Must be imagining it, I suppose....


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:45:14


Post by: Jihadin


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The crisis is mainly mentioned in commentaries about Tuesday's talks in Minsk between the Russian and Ukrainian presidents, with Konstantin Bondarenko writing in Nezavisimaya Gazeta that "Vladimir Putin… showed he is not a bully and not a dictator" because "aggressors and dictators refuse to negotiate".


Strange, I seem to remember reading about certain negotiations between two moustachio'd men... something about dividing up Poland, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland...

Must be imagining it, I suppose....


Brush up on that time period


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 18:58:03


Post by: Sigvatr


 Jihadin wrote:


Negative. We're not getting involve being your flow of natural gas from Russia is flowing.......and Winter is Coming


Hah, joke's on you, we're just making our holiday home in Calinfornia our primary home!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 4141/08/28 18:59:33


Post by: Frazzled


Hah jokes right back on you. You're going to be living in Florida.


HAHAHAHAHAHA


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 19:00:42


Post by: Sigvatr


Ehem, California.

I have no idea how I mixed them up. Had the image of California in my mind. Wrote Florida. The biggest swamp of the US. Mush, mush.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 19:02:06


Post by: Frazzled


Thats even worse!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 19:04:09


Post by: Sigvatr


 Frazzled wrote:
Thats even worse!


No way. We love it D: Nice weather, good infrastructure.

Better zan ze east coast. We're going to run in the NYC Marathon again and will stay for a week, but...well...we're not liking it :(


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 19:09:33


Post by: Frazzled


Southern California? Ever sat in traffic for two hours one way EVERY DAY OF YOUR LIFE????


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 19:16:51


Post by: Sigvatr


We got stuck in a traffic jam really badly a few years ago...iirc, the second year after buying the house. Meh, happens. Quality of living makes up for it


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 19:17:22


Post by: Jihadin


Let's not forget the tax's in Cali


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 19:19:00


Post by: Sigvatr


Live in Germany for a few years as a couple with a large income and you will never ever complain about taxes


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 19:24:14


Post by: Jihadin


What you pay for in a liter of gas is what we pay for in a gallon



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 19:28:35


Post by: Sigvatr


 Jihadin wrote:
What you pay for in a liter of gas is what we pay for in a gallon



Yarrrr. We have actually considered moving to the US quite a few times already. Still got a few good reasons to stay here though. Maybe when our daughter is older. Or a war breaks loose

F3 / E1 ftw!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 19:33:37


Post by: xole


Southern California has gone from being only mostly a desert to being a full blown desert over the last few years

I share the 'meh' about Europe. It's someone else's problem. Not someone who can stand up to Russia, probably, but that's their problem too.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 22:47:37


Post by: Soladrin


Way to drag this off topic.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/28 22:53:38


Post by: BaronIveagh


I find it hilarious that Putin accuses Kiev of being Neo-Nazis and at the same time has been copying Hitler's playbook..

Crimea = Sudetenland
Ukraine = Czechoslovakia but using the same strategy Hitler used in Spain, ala the Condor Legion.

The problem is that if he follows true, next he snags something people actually care about (Poland for Big Irony!) and we get WW3.

Followed by years later Frazz bitching that they weren't stopped back when they grabbed Crimea, before Texas was bombed and all the Dachshunds rounded up in camps and made into borscht.



BTW" It's nice to read a BBC article on some of the stuff I've been taking about for weeks now.


Doing some quick math between several reports I've read, assuming that the Rebels are not shooting the gak re how many Russians are in the Ukraine, and that Estonian estimates about Russian casualties are not similarly BS, the Russians have taken 10% casualties so far. Over 100 wounded have mysteriously turned up at a military Hospital in Saint Petersburg with secret funerals and 'killed while training' have been seeing a massive spike, including the CO of the same unit those paratroopers came from, apparently.


Also,. apparently Comrade Putin isn't too keen on Russian press reporting on what's going on:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28949582


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 00:40:47


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Yeah, there totally aren't Russian troops in Ukraine *wink* *wink*.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 01:34:43


Post by: Ketara


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
It appears Putin is making his move. Poroshenko has gambled, and lost this round. Such a pity.


Please elaborate. Has something new happened? Are more Russian troops turning up in Ukraine?


You could say that. Just replace 'troops' with 'tanks, infantry, and artillery'.

Iron_Captain wrote:Russia still denies the presence of its troops in the Ukraine.
The seperatists however have launched a major counter-offensive. They have captured a lot of territory in the past few days.


Russia denies their presence because it strings things out. Russia also denied the presence of troops in Crimea until it became convenient to acknowledge them. A Russian denial, alas, does not necessarily equate to truth. And the truth here is that the Russians are starting to push back the Ukrainians. Not the Donetsk rebels.

To quote the Lithuanian Ambassador on the subject:-
"An invasion is an invasion is an invasion."


To put in a spot of analysis, there's a reason for Putin not acknowledging this as an official war/invasion. It would seem to indicate that he's planning on pushing the Ukrainians back to the borders of Donetsk/Luhansk regions (maybe a few kilometres beyond), and halting there. He's not going to try for all of Ukraine(unless Ukraine collapses, in which case the situation changes), or he'd be announcing it to the world right now. He'll establish Donetsk control over those regions, and set up a puppet state.

But he won't be able to maintain his pretence of 'No Russians involved' for long, before the Ukrainians gather sufficient evidence the Russian forces are Russian forces. He'll need to achieve his goal within the next week, to week and a half. Speed will be of the essence.

Poroshenko was gambling that Putin would back down rather than becoming so overt, based on Putin's habitual actions as an opportunist so far. He gambled, and he lost. He thought the Russian troops re-established over the border were just intimidation, and that they'd stay still while he dealt with the Donetsk rebels. He was wrong, and now he will most likely lose Donetsk/Luhansk over it. What's more, he'll lose most of his country's industry with them. Ukraine will be economically crippled after this.

Fracking idiot. I know he was under pressure to take his course of action from his government's disposition, and that was why he dissolved them and launched elections. But too little, too late. He's screwed his country through his bad reading of the situation.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 05:55:26


Post by: Jihadin


I'm waiting on volunteers from the Russian military to go assist the Sep's


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 08:52:28


Post by: PhantomViper


 Frazzled wrote:
I share Obama's "meh."


I'm all for America staying out of other people's business, this should be primarily a EU problem, but don't you guys (and the Brits) have a defence agreement with Ukraine made for just this occasion?

It sends a pretty strong message to everyone, including the wrong people, when the supposedly "good guys" don't keep up with their word, especially when they specifically state that they will defend someone from invasion and then just shrug when said invasion happens.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 11:19:01


Post by: reds8n


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/29/russia-ukraine-war-asking


In early spring, Russian president Vladimir Putin deployed soldiers without insignia into the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea to ensure a quick annexation of the territory.

After a month of denying their existence, the Russian president acknowledged that the thousands of well-armed fighters, who had previously been referred to as “little green men”, were in fact Russian troops.

Decried in the west, Russians gave the move near unanimous support. A territory was won through military might – and an overwhelming referendum vote that has not been recognised in the west – but without a fight.

Now, as Moscow apparently reinvigorates a flailing pro-Russian separatist insurgency with a barely concealed incursion into south-eastern Ukraine, indications are that Russian military men are dying. And as captured Russian paratroopers are paraded on Ukrainian television and servicemen are buried in secrecy, some Russians are asking a seemingly simple question: “are we at war?”

No information

The answer to the question, posed this week in an editorial in the business daily newspaper Vedomosti, is one that is becoming increasingly obvious for military families. It is the details that they say are not forthcoming.

In Kostroma, 1,300km from Russia’s border with eastern Ukraine, family members of a group of 10 Russian paratroopers captured in Ukraine say all their information has come from secondhand, online sources.

One mother, Olga Pochtoyeva, says when she approached officials with photos on the social media site Vkontakte that appeared to show her son had been taken prisoner in Ukraine, her claims were dismissed as “provocations.”

“We showed them [these pictures] and they didn’t believe it,” she says. “It’s Photoshop, they told us. I’m sorry, I’d never mistake my son’s eyebrows for Photoshop.”

The paratroopers, who have been paraded in front of cameras by Ukrainian authorities at least three times, are only the most public face of Russian military involvement.

Members of Russia’s presidential council on human rights has asked for an investigation into the deaths of nine military contractors, while the Stavropol Committee of Soldiers’ Mothers has compiled a list of 400 Russian troops it says have recently been either killed or wounded.

The claims come amid evidence of secret funerals for Russian servicemen, reports of which began with small drips of information from Pskov, a small city in northern Russia.

On 25 August families buried Leonid Kichatkin and Aleksandr Osipov, two Russian paratroopers from a regiment based in the city. Some of the brigade’s gear and documents had been spotted by Ukrainian journalists days earlier in the conflict zone in eastern Ukraine.

State media did not cover the funerals and independent reporters who had come to inspect the paratroopers’ gravestones were accosted by unidentified men.

“It was more like a threat than any sort of demand,” Ilya Vasyunin, a journalist for the online Russian Planet news site, told RFE/RL’s Russian Service. “They wanted to make sure we understood that there was no need to visit the cemetery or dig any deeper into the situation.”

The names on the gravestones, which showed the dates of death as 19 and 20 August, have since reportedly been removed.

There has been a near complete blackout in coverage of the funerals by Russia’s state-controlled media and a message on Kichatkin’s VKontakte page saying that the serviceman had been killed, apparently written by his wife, has been removed. The families have since been unwilling to speak with media.

More funerals

Meanwhile, reports of new funerals continue.

On 25 August, Anton Korolenko, a commander – apparently from the same Pskov-based paratrooper division – was buried in Voronezh. A local journalist told RFE/RL’s Russian Service that an unidentified family member had claimed the circumstances behind his death were “secret” but that “he did not die in vain”.

And in Russia’s Urals republic of Bashkortostan, the mother of Marsel Arattanov told the independent Dozhd TV station that she had buried her son on 22 August after being ordered by the authorities to claim his body in Rostov, a Russian city near the border with Ukraine. “He was not on our territory when he died,” Venera Arattanova said. “We have heard that they went to Ukrainian territory.”

Asked about the funerals, Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s spokesman, told the Itar-Tassn ews agency the information was “being checked by the agencies concerned”.

A Nato official said on 28 August that more than 1,000 Russian soldiers were serving with separatists in Ukraine. The head of the Committee of Soldiers’ Mothers, Valentina Melnikova, said the number was as high as 15,000. And Alexander Zakharchenko, leader of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, admitted that there were members of the Russian military serving with the rebels, though he said they had come during their “vacations.”

Although Russians have been largely supportive of pro-Russian separatists, a survey conducted by the government-backed Public Opinion Foundation found that just five per cent of respondents would favour sending troops into Ukraine.

Families of soldiers still unaccounted for fear the worst. “It’s absolutely ridiculous,” says Ella Polyakova, a member of Putin’s advisory council on human rights, who so far has been unsuccessful in using official channels to gather information. “People are demanding answers – where are their sons?”




Dreadfully sad business not to know how one's loved ones are doing.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 12:55:45


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Jihadin wrote:
I'm waiting on volunteers from the Russian military to go assist the Sep's
They have been there from the beginning. There is lots of Russian volunteers, some of them have a military background. There are some Serbs as well, who are of course veterans of the wars there. There is a few Greeks as well, and there are a lot of Belarusians, most of whom fight for the seperatists, but there are a few Belarusians on the Ukrainian side as well. Most volunteers on the Ukrainian side are from the Baltic states and Poland.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 13:10:35


Post by: Easy E


Kind of reminds me the shenanigans in the inter-war years of 1918 through 1938.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 14:14:32


Post by: Dreadclaw69


 reds8n wrote:
One mother, Olga Pochtoyeva, says when she approached officials with photos on the social media site Vkontakte that appeared to show her son had been taken prisoner in Ukraine, her claims were dismissed as “provocations.”

“We showed them [these pictures] and they didn’t believe it,” she says. “It’s Photoshop, they told us. I’m sorry, I’d never mistake my son’s eyebrows for Photoshop.”

How distinctive were her son's eyebrows?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 14:34:35


Post by: reds8n


Yeah that is a bit odd.

Russian branch of the Gallagher clan one surmises.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gallagher%20Brows


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 16:18:27


Post by: elotar


 Ketara wrote:
He's screwed his country through his bad reading of the situation.


You really don't get the game Poroshenko is playing. Russian special forces and intelligence operatives was in Donbass region from the beginning of the whole situation and campain of armed ocupation of the government buildings wasn't just in Donezk and Lugansk regions, but spreading rapidly with no end in sight. All this was accomplished with the official position of Russia, that Ukranian givernment got no right to exists and that there are no such nation as Ukranians at all. And you have to understand, it's not was like Putin sad "I don't like Ukranians" and everibody was like "meh" - it was main topic of all news programs/sites/papers, there was "documentaries" about ukranian atrosities from the present to the medieval times, all(!) politicians, actors and other media-persons was making some anti-ukranian speeches (or dissapiar from media), we even got some anti-ukranian child model shows! My 60 year old acquaintance, who had worked for several years in soviet newspaper at the 80-s, said that even at thouse times there was no such crasy ideology campains.

So the problem was not only the russian involvement, but that after brodcasting "ukranians are eating children for breakfast, every breakfast" it will be impossible for "Putin" (as a collective term for Russian rulling clique), to stop supporting "separatists" without terribly losing face. And, obviously, Ukrane, as much smaller country in dire economic conditions, cannot cope with Russia.

So the main goal of Poroshenko was (and is) to organize international pressure on Russia, which will be more severe, than possible domestic backslash for "betraying russian people". And because international community demands "decisive evidence of russian involvement", ignoring by the same time all the evidence which are provided, he is upping the stakes, untill it'll be impossible to neglect.

In this strategy direct invasion with russian regular army forces is quite "according to plan". As I see, even having several battalions surrounded and in general retreat, ukranian leadership is not making any attepts to negotiate the cease fire or smth.

I think If it'll not work (UN Seccon meeting was kinda not interested), than there will be no baking up from both sides and we'll have large scale heavy weapon ingagement in the european region with millions of civilian population, chemical plants and nuclear power stations.

After it got no idea, how can it end, but I'm sure, eyebrow jokes will not be looking so fun.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 16:31:35


Post by: Dreadclaw69


elotar wrote:
After it got no idea, how can it end, but I'm sure, eyebrow jokes will not be looking so fun.

They won't be if you can't see out from under them


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 16:54:46


Post by: Iron_Captain


elotar wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
He's screwed his country through his bad reading of the situation.


You really don't get the game Poroshenko is playing. Russian special forces and intelligence operatives was in Donbass region from the beginning of the whole situation and campain of armed ocupation of the government buildings wasn't just in Donezk and Lugansk regions, but spreading rapidly with no end in sight. All this was accomplished with the official position of Russia, that Ukranian givernment got no right to exists and that there are no such nation as Ukranians at all. And you have to understand, it's not was like Putin sad "I don't like Ukranians" and everibody was like "meh" - it was main topic of all news programs/sites/papers, there was "documentaries" about ukranian atrosities from the present to the medieval times, all(!) politicians, actors and other media-persons was making some anti-ukranian speeches (or dissapiar from media), we even got some anti-ukranian child model shows! My 60 year old acquaintance, who had worked for several years in soviet newspaper at the 80-s, said that even at thouse times there was no such crasy ideology campains.

So the problem was not only the russian involvement, but that after brodcasting "ukranians are eating children for breakfast, every breakfast" it will be impossible for "Putin" (as a collective term for Russian rulling clique), to stop supporting "separatists" without terribly losing face. And, obviously, Ukrane, as much smaller country in dire economic conditions, cannot cope with Russia.

So the main goal of Poroshenko was (and is) to organize international pressure on Russia, which will be more severe, than possible domestic backslash for "betraying russian people". And because international community demands "decisive evidence of russian involvement", ignoring by the same time all the evidence which are provided, he is upping the stakes, untill it'll be impossible to neglect.

In this strategy direct invasion with russian regular army forces is quite "according to plan". As I see, even having several battalions surrounded and in general retreat, ukranian leadership is not making any attepts to negotiate the cease fire or smth.

I think If it'll not work (UN Seccon meeting was kinda not interested), than there will be no baking up from both sides and we'll have large scale heavy weapon ingagement in the european region with millions of civilian population, chemical plants and nuclear power stations.

After it got no idea, how can it end, but I'm sure, eyebrow jokes will not be looking so fun.


Eyebrow jokes are always funny, altough I think his eyebrows could have been worse:
Spoiler:

But got to have something to laugh about when the news is grim.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 18:57:12


Post by: Ahtman


Our weekly supplement of saber rattling has arrived!

Don't mess with nuclear Russia, Putin says

He is just a simple man trying to get through this crazy world we live in.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 18:59:58


Post by: Soladrin


 Ahtman wrote:
Our weekly supplement of saber rattling has arrived!

Don't mess with nuclear Russia, Putin says

He is just a simple man trying to get through this crazy world we live in.





Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 20:39:04


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ahtman wrote:
Our weekly supplement of saber rattling has arrived!

Don't mess with nuclear Russia, Putin says

He is just a simple man trying to get through this crazy world we live in.

My favourite two quotes from this interview:
-'Anything US touches turns into Libya or Iraq'
-‘If these are European values, I’m badly disappointed’

Think of Putin what you want, but he is a good speaker.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 20:46:56


Post by: Soladrin


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
Our weekly supplement of saber rattling has arrived!

Don't mess with nuclear Russia, Putin says

He is just a simple man trying to get through this crazy world we live in.

My favourite two quotes from this interview:
-'Anything US touches turns into Libya or Iraq'
-‘If these are European values, I’m badly disappointed’

Think of Putin what you want, but he is a good speaker.


... You are easily impressed.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 21:02:03


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Soladrin wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
Our weekly supplement of saber rattling has arrived!

Don't mess with nuclear Russia, Putin says

He is just a simple man trying to get through this crazy world we live in.

My favourite two quotes from this interview:
-'Anything US touches turns into Libya or Iraq'
-‘If these are European values, I’m badly disappointed’

Think of Putin what you want, but he is a good speaker.


... You are easily impressed.
When it is Putin, yes.

'Oh Vladimir Vladimirovich! You are so... impressive!'


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 22:35:43


Post by: BaronIveagh


Regardless of the egos involved, if these casualty reports and numbers estimates are in the ballpark, the Russians are not doing very well, despite their advances.

My estimate is that his endgame is a land corridor connecting Russia and Crimea.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/29 23:02:42


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Soladrin wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
Our weekly supplement of saber rattling has arrived!

Don't mess with nuclear Russia, Putin says

He is just a simple man trying to get through this crazy world we live in.

My favourite two quotes from this interview:
-'Anything US touches turns into Libya or Iraq'
-‘If these are European values, I’m badly disappointed’

Think of Putin what you want, but he is a good speaker.


... You are easily impressed.


Putin's right though, in those two quotes at least.

We (UK, USA and pals) don't have a good track record in intervention.

And our values are inconsistent at best...

Torture and other Human Rights abuses.
Extraordinary rendition. Kidnapping.
Funding and supporting violent groups (we wanted to support the Syrian rebels against the Assad regime...Guess who was among them?).
Mass surveillance without warrant or judicial oversight.
Erosion of civil liberties. (e.g. Long term detention without charge).
Abuse of Anti Terrorism laws (Local Councils using them to put residents under surveillance).


This may be the Devil calling the Demon immoral...but doesn't mean its not true.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/30 17:29:49


Post by: loki old fart


Would the USA or Europe give a damn about the Ukraine without the natural gas that's there.?
http://iakal.wordpress.com/2014/08/05/the-energy-war-between-u-s-a-and-russia-and-the-threat-for-israels-survival/

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
Our weekly supplement of saber rattling has arrived!

Don't mess with nuclear Russia, Putin says

He is just a simple man trying to get through this crazy world we live in.

My favourite two quotes from this interview:
-'Anything US touches turns into Libya or Iraq'
-‘If these are European values, I’m badly disappointed’

Think of Putin what you want, but he is a good speaker.


... You are easily impressed.


Putin's right though, in those two quotes at least.

We (UK, USA and pals) don't have a good track record in intervention.

And our values are inconsistent at best...

Torture and other Human Rights abuses.
Extraordinary rendition. Kidnapping.
Funding and supporting violent groups (we wanted to support the Syrian rebels against the Assad regime...Guess who was among them?).
Mass surveillance without warrant or judicial oversight.
Erosion of civil liberties. (e.g. Long term detention without charge).
Abuse of Anti Terrorism laws (Local Councils using them to put residents under surveillance).


This may be the Devil calling the Demon immoral...but doesn't mean its not true.


That's whats annoying, it is true.

Please don't attach non wargaming files to Dakka.
reds8n




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/30 18:06:21


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Putin's right though, in those two quotes at least.

We (UK, USA and pals) don't have a good track record in intervention.

And our values are inconsistent at best...

Torture and other Human Rights abuses.
Extraordinary rendition. Kidnapping.
Funding and supporting violent groups (we wanted to support the Syrian rebels against the Assad regime...Guess who was among them?).
Mass surveillance without warrant or judicial oversight.
Erosion of civil liberties. (e.g. Long term detention without charge).
Abuse of Anti Terrorism laws (Local Councils using them to put residents under surveillance).


This may be the Devil calling the Demon immoral...but doesn't mean its not true.


The question is, which is better, countries who know it';s wrong, but, sadly, occasionally necessary, or countries who seem almost proud to do all of those things?

BTW: the third one: if you guessed ISIS, you guessed wrong.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/30 18:36:14


Post by: Ahtman


 loki old fart wrote:
Would the USA or Europe give a damn about the Ukraine without the natural gas that's there.?


Would you care if a random stranger is mugged only because he has something important to you? Self interest isn't necessarily a vice. I also think we would care, just not enough to do anything about it; having a vested interest in the area increases the likelihood of doing more then complaining, though not by much at this point.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 02:44:20


Post by: BaronIveagh


Here's something to think on: When the US invoked Article 5 following 9/11, the Ukraine was one of very few nations to offer troops that was not obligated to do so.

For those of you who served in Afghanistan (and this is more directed to the EU guys here), if you know anyone who was patched up by NATO forces in Ghor, they probably owe their ass to a Ukrainian medic.


So, just something to chew on, that next time it might be Germany, the UK, or even the US asking for help.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 09:25:34


Post by: loki old fart


 BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's something to think on: When the US invoked Article 5 following 9/11, the Ukraine was one of very few nations to offer troops that was not obligated to do so.

For those of you who served in Afghanistan (and this is more directed to the EU guys here), if you know anyone who was patched up by NATO forces in Ghor, they probably owe their ass to a Ukrainian medic.


So, just something to chew on, that next time it might be Germany, the UK, or even the US asking for help.


Yes but that was the pre-maiden government, or was that your point.?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 11:10:02


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 loki old fart wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's something to think on: When the US invoked Article 5 following 9/11, the Ukraine was one of very few nations to offer troops that was not obligated to do so.

For those of you who served in Afghanistan (and this is more directed to the EU guys here), if you know anyone who was patched up by NATO forces in Ghor, they probably owe their ass to a Ukrainian medic.


So, just something to chew on, that next time it might be Germany, the UK, or even the US asking for help.


Yes but that was the pre-maiden government, or was that your point.?


According to Wiki at least, Anatoliy Kinakh was acting Prime Minister of Ukraine on September 11, 2001. As far as I've been able to discern, he has no connections to Yanukovych whatsoever. You're right in that it was the "pre-Maidan government", but only in the sense that the events we're talking about happened in 2001, and as such would be pre-Maidan by definition. The pre-Maidan government led by Yanukovych, however, didn't exist in September 2001 and as such can't have been responsible.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 11:39:05


Post by: Iron_Captain


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Here's something to think on: When the US invoked Article 5 following 9/11, the Ukraine was one of very few nations to offer troops that was not obligated to do so.

For those of you who served in Afghanistan (and this is more directed to the EU guys here), if you know anyone who was patched up by NATO forces in Ghor, they probably owe their ass to a Ukrainian medic.


So, just something to chew on, that next time it might be Germany, the UK, or even the US asking for help.


Yes but that was the pre-maiden government, or was that your point.?


According to Wiki at least, Anatoliy Kinakh was acting Prime Minister of Ukraine on September 11, 2001. As far as I've been able to discern, he has no connections to Yanukovych whatsoever. You're right in that it was the "pre-Maidan government", but only in the sense that the events we're talking about happened in 2001, and as such would be pre-Maidan by definition. The pre-Maidan government led by Yanukovych, however, didn't exist in September 2001 and as such can't have been responsible.
In 2001, it would have been the government of good old Leonid Kuchma, by far the best president the Ukraine has ever had. He managed to be both pro-Russian and pro-Western at the same time. Nobody could balance between the two sides of Ukraine like he could, and he still is the only Ukrainian president that has ever been elected to a second term (not counting Yanukovich's 2004 election). Unfortenately he became involved in a lot of corruption scandals.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 18:40:44


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
Regardless of the egos involved, if these casualty reports and numbers estimates are in the ballpark, the Russians are not doing very well, despite their advances.

My estimate is that his endgame is a land corridor connecting Russia and Crimea.


Thats stage II.

Stage III is the eastern 1/3 to 1/2 of Ukraine. Stage III will be completed within December 2014 to June 2015 at the latest.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 19:03:11


Post by: BaronIveagh


Governments, well, good governments, anyway, are an extension of the will of the people.

The issue is that we have all been here before, gentlemen, and as before, men argue for appeasement and sell their allies to avoid war.

"The relief that our escape from this great peril of war has, I think, everywhere been mingled in this country with a profound feeling of sympathy." - Neville Chamberlain.

How'd that turn out for ya?:



Coventry


Rotterdam


Pearl Harbor


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 19:50:07


Post by: Iron_Captain


 BaronIveagh wrote:
Governments, well, good governments, anyway, are an extension of the will of the people.

The issue is that we have all been here before, gentlemen, and as before, men argue for appeasement and sell their allies to avoid war.
Since when did Ukraine suddenly become an 'ally'?
Also, the amount of godwin in this thread (and Western media) is over 9000. I am pretty sure that unlike Hitler, Putin has no evil plans for world domination and genocidal campaigns to exterminate all non-Russians. And neither is he preparing an invasion of Poland.
I will also tell you that only because appeasement failed once, doesn't mean it will never work. We are dealing with a vastly different situation here that bears no resemblence to WW2.
Making such comparisons is silly, and only illustrates your lack of knowledge about this conflict.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 20:16:02


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Governments, well, good governments, anyway, are an extension of the will of the people.

The issue is that we have all been here before, gentlemen, and as before, men argue for appeasement and sell their allies to avoid war.
Since when did Ukraine suddenly become an 'ally'?
Also, the amount of godwin in this thread (and Western media) is over 9000.


Considering the whole "neo-Nazis in Kiev" Russian media has/had going on, that's rather rich.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 20:46:59


Post by: Redcruisair


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Governments, well, good governments, anyway, are an extension of the will of the people.

The issue is that we have all been here before, gentlemen, and as before, men argue for appeasement and sell their allies to avoid war.
Since when did Ukraine suddenly become an 'ally'?
Also, the amount of godwin in this thread (and Western media) is over 9000.

The pot calling the kettle black.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28985715


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 20:47:05


Post by: Iron_Captain


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Governments, well, good governments, anyway, are an extension of the will of the people.

The issue is that we have all been here before, gentlemen, and as before, men argue for appeasement and sell their allies to avoid war.
Since when did Ukraine suddenly become an 'ally'?
Also, the amount of godwin in this thread (and Western media) is over 9000.


Considering the whole "neo-Nazis in Kiev" Russian media has/had going on, that's rather rich.
Nah. Russian media is mostly just saying they are fascists, not making dubious comparisons to WW2. That is not to say they don't do it (in fact, Putin himself said the bombardment of Donetsk reminded him of the Leningrad blockade.) but it is less than in Western medias.
Besides that, the presence and important role of neo-Nazis in the protests on Maidan and their subsequent influence in the Ukrainian interim government is something that is well proven and which could even be found in Western media.
In any case, it was not the point I was making.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 21:54:36


Post by: Co'tor Shas


But can we all agree that Russia is being horrible? No?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 22:07:16


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Nah. Russian media is mostly just saying they are fascists, not making dubious comparisons to WW2.


Achem, hold that thought.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-compares-ukraine-s-advance-in-east-with-nazi-siege/506137.html

Also:

Back in April Russian language media was carrying stories about how the Kiev government was going to set up death camps for Russian speakers in the Eastern Ukraine. Putin himself called the political asylum centers set up my the UN and EU as 'fascist concentration camps' (BTW: Putin either had never seen a picture of one of these places,or had no idea what a concentration camp looks like) .

By the way, which side are the Nazis again?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29001361


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/08/31 23:45:27


Post by: motyak


Before you call someone on something Baron, read their whole post. He mentioned that Putin thing immediately after the words you quoted.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/01 02:16:03


Post by: BaronIveagh


 motyak wrote:
Before you call someone on something Baron, read their whole post. He mentioned that Putin thing immediately after the words you quoted.


Yes, but it used Nazis instead of fascists. I can dig out others. They've been calling government in Kiev Nazis ever since they were just the protestors in Kiev. But I was in a hurry when posting so just grabbed the first one to come up.

The NY times made a reference to this back in February, particularly the Russian foreign ministry comparing the protestors to the Brown Revolution.

“Had Russia failed to interfere, Crimea would have come under pressure from police forces controlled by radicals and from neo-Nazi militants. Within a month, they would have established their government in Crimea and within one or two years they would have driven out almost all Russians." - Sergey Markov, in an interview with Komsomolskaya Pravda


Hmm, like any war, volunteers and mercenaries are comming in from all sides, to all sides.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28951324



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 09:40:38


Post by: loki old fart


Ukraine crisis: Russia halts gas supplies to Kiev
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27862849
Ukraine says Russia has cut off all gas supplies, in a major escalation of a dispute between the two nations.

"Gas supplies to Ukraine have been reduced to zero," Ukrainian Energy Minister Yuri Prodan said.

Russia's state-owned gas giant Gazprom said Ukraine had to pay upfront for its gas supplies, after Kiev failed to settle its huge debt.

Gazprom had asked Ukraine's state gas firm Naftogaz to pay $1.95bn (£1.15bn) of the $4.5bn it said it was owed.

It said it would continue to supply gas to Europe, although Gazprom chief Alexei Miller warned there now were "significant" risks for gas transit to the EU via Ukraine.

Ukraine has enough reserves to last until December, according to Naftogaz.

Later, the White House urged Moscow to resume talks with Ukraine, saying an EU proposal that Kiev pay $1bn on Monday and the rest in instalments was a "reasonable compromise".

On Monday, Gazprom said in a statement: "Today, from 10:00 Moscow time [06:00 GMT], Gazprom, according to the existing contract, moved Naftogaz to prepayment for gas supplies.

"From today, the Ukrainian company will receive Russian natural gas only in the amounts it has paid for."


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 18:34:44


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Governments, well, good governments, anyway, are an extension of the will of the people.

The issue is that we have all been here before, gentlemen, and as before, men argue for appeasement and sell their allies to avoid war.
Since when did Ukraine suddenly become an 'ally'?
Also, the amount of godwin in this thread (and Western media) is over 9000. I am pretty sure that unlike Hitler, Putin has no evil plans for world domination and genocidal campaigns to exterminate all non-Russians. And neither is he preparing an invasion of Poland.
I will also tell you that only because appeasement failed once, doesn't mean it will never work. We are dealing with a vastly different situation here that bears no resemblence to WW2.
Making such comparisons is silly, and only illustrates your lack of knowledge about this conflict.


You can only say that whilst conveniently overlooking Putins human rights violations against certain ethnic minorities and the LGBTQ community, overlooking his statements (and the Russian medias) pertaining to the reestablishment of the Soviet Empire, and his recent statements regarding Russias nuclear arsenal, as well as comments made pertaining to certain Baltic nations.

Anyway, everyones favorite Dutch Putin apologist aside, the rebels are willing to settle for autonomy, would that be a bad thing? Theyd still be part of the Ukraine but have a little more say in local affairs, etc., I dont see how thats any different than any one of the US states relationships with the federal govt... then again Crimea was autonomous and look how that worked out.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 20:37:43


Post by: Iron_Captain


chaos0xomega wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Governments, well, good governments, anyway, are an extension of the will of the people.

The issue is that we have all been here before, gentlemen, and as before, men argue for appeasement and sell their allies to avoid war.
Since when did Ukraine suddenly become an 'ally'?
Also, the amount of godwin in this thread (and Western media) is over 9000. I am pretty sure that unlike Hitler, Putin has no evil plans for world domination and genocidal campaigns to exterminate all non-Russians. And neither is he preparing an invasion of Poland.
I will also tell you that only because appeasement failed once, doesn't mean it will never work. We are dealing with a vastly different situation here that bears no resemblence to WW2.
Making such comparisons is silly, and only illustrates your lack of knowledge about this conflict.


You can only say that whilst conveniently overlooking Putins human rights violations against certain ethnic minorities and the LGBTQ community, overlooking his statements (and the Russian medias) pertaining to the reestablishment of the Soviet Empire, and his recent statements regarding Russias nuclear arsenal, as well as comments made pertaining to certain Baltic nations.

Anyway, everyones favorite Dutch Putin apologist aside, the rebels are willing to settle for autonomy, would that be a bad thing? Theyd still be part of the Ukraine but have a little more say in local affairs, etc., I dont see how thats any different than any one of the US states relationships with the federal govt... then again Crimea was autonomous and look how that worked out.
Nah, I don't overlook those LGBT rights violations (which have been ridiculously exaggerated in western media but that aside) and I think it is bad, but in Russia, no one cares for LGBT rights. Only Western people care for them. Who are you to say your cultural values are better than someone else's?


As to the Ukrainian seperatists, greater autonomy has been what they wanted from the very beginning. It is why they started protesting. I don't know where people got the idea they wanted to break away and join Russia. They only started saying that after the Ukrainian government started killing them.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 20:49:23


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Who are you to say your cultural values are better than someone else's?.


Is society being damaged by treating homosexuals, trans-gendered people and other groups in similar situations decently? No? Then why be an ass to them?

Hiding behind "cultural values" is a BS excuse. Even if it weren't the West's cultural values it'd still stand on it's own, because it's reasonable and logical. Unless "reason" and "logic" is now Western cultural attributes as well.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 20:59:48


Post by: Ketara


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Who are you to say your cultural values are better than someone else's?.


Is society being damaged by treating homosexuals, trans-gendered people and other groups in similar situations decently? No? Then why be an ass to them?

Hiding behind "cultural values" is a BS excuse. Even if it weren't the West's cultural values it'd still stand on it's own, because it's reasonable and logical. Unless "reason" and "logic" is now Western cultural attributes as well.


Perception of what is 'reasonable' or 'logical' are heavily influenced by cultural norms and attributes.

I'm a heavy defender of LGBT rights, but I'm not naive/arrogant enough to believe that my answers(and those of contemporary Western culture/society) are always fundamentally and objectively the right ones. A mere fifty years ago, you had the likes of Turing being hounded around. Being 'Western' does not always mean being correct.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 21:15:13


Post by: Iron_Captain


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Who are you to say your cultural values are better than someone else's?.


Is society being damaged by treating homosexuals, trans-gendered people and other groups in similar situations decently? No? Then why be an ass to them?

Hiding behind "cultural values" is a BS excuse. Even if it weren't the West's cultural values it'd still stand on it's own, because it's reasonable and logical. Unless "reason" and "logic" is now Western cultural attributes as well.

Some Russians would argue that they are a considered abomination by their religion (religion is very important to most Russians) and that they are therefore offended by those people. They would also argue that they damage society by undermining traditional values, causing unrest and leading young people astray from the path of Orthodox Christianity, condemning them to Damnation.
To them, this makes LGBT people a threat to their society, which turns them very hostile. They consider the West to be degenerate and morally corrupt, and they are determined to prevent the same from happening to Russia. It is really hard being openly gay in Russia, people often get beaten up, even when they are not gay themselves but just trying to defend LGBT people/rights. Putin's anti gay propaganda law did not really have much effect, except on Western media. Openly displaying gayness was already dangeruous, and thus it already rarely happened. But as sad as I think it is, I still find it impossible to condemn it. How do you judge cultural values? If you had been born in that culture, you would likely have supported them!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 21:21:12


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Who are you to say your cultural values are better than someone else's?


That's a question that is better being asked to Putin and his bigoted thugs than those preaching tolerance and kindness to human beings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Putin's anti gay propaganda law did not really have much effect, except on Western media.


You mean apart from making it illegal to actually talk openly and honestly about homosexuality? Therefore further alienating a segment of Russias own people who are already facing massive amounts of discrimination and violence?

How can Russia claim to not be degenerate or morally corrupt when it allows its own citizens to be assaulted and humiliated in the streets with no punishment to those responsible.

If religion was important to Russians then they would stand up for what is the single most important part of pretty much every religion: Treat others as you yourself wish to be treated.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 21:30:59


Post by: Iron_Captain


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Who are you to say your cultural values are better than someone else's?


That's a question that is better being asked to Putin and his bigoted thugs than those preaching tolerance and kindness to human beings.
The question goes both ways. What you see as tolerance and kindness might be offensive to someone else. They might have a very different view of what is tolerant and kind.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Putin's anti gay propaganda law did not really have much effect, except on Western media.


You mean apart from making it illegal to actually talk openly and honestly about homosexuality? Therefore further alienating a segment of Russias own people who are already facing massive amounts of discrimination and violence?
The law did not have any practical effect. Talking openly and honestly about homosexuality already was not possible in Russia.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
How can Russia claim to not be degenerate or morally corrupt when it allows its own citizens to be assaulted and humiliated in the streets with no punishment to those responsible.

If religion was important to Russians then they would stand up for what is the single most important part of pretty much every religion: Treat others as you yourself wish to be treated.
That is a question you should ask other Kirya:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Kirill_of_Moscow



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 21:54:47


Post by: motyak


If you want to discuss Russia's treatment of homosexuals, start another thread please. Behemoths like this at 107 pages don't need any more help getting knocked off the rails


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 22:35:20


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Iron_Captain wrote:
I don't know where people got the idea they wanted to break away and join Russia.


I believe it was called 'Crimea'.





Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/02 23:12:33


Post by: loki old fart


The Crimea was always part of Russia, in the peoples hearts.
Giving it to Ukraine was a mistake.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 00:09:46


Post by: BaronIveagh


 loki old fart wrote:
The Crimea was always part of Russia, in the peoples hearts.
Giving it to Ukraine was a mistake.


Actually, the mistake was killing or deporting the Ukrainians living there to Siberia under this guy called Stalin, who replaced them with loyal party members. The inhabitants of Crimea got the particularly heavy end of the hammer for having been one of the last holdouts in the region against communism. Nikita Khrushchev (who was actually from Donbas) gave it to the Ukraine after denouncing the mass purges Stalin conducted.

The Crimea was part of Russia in the people's hearts once Stalin got done carving them out and leaving them in the bloody snow. It's sort of like saying that Czechoslovakia was always part of Germany in the people's hearts.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 01:15:39


Post by: Howard A Treesong


I think Russia has made it clear on the priority that religion gets. That's why playing some rude music in a church gets you slung in a freezing gulag for two years.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 01:24:18


Post by: Storm Shadow


I believe Putin to quite certainly be a madman.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 01:34:02


Post by: Relapse


 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I think Russia has made it clear on the priority that religion gets. That's why playing some rude music in a church gets you slung in a freezing gulag for two years.


It's funny how times change. There were the days when just being in a church in Russia to worship could open you to that.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 09:42:47


Post by: BaronIveagh


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29042561



Putin has agreed to a ceasefire on behalf of the rebels. But not on behalf of himself, since honest, Russia is not involved in the war in Donbas. Further has NOTHING to do with the results of the Nato meeting where the Ukraine's entry into Nato is being discussed, nor the fact that Nato fast reaction force is being assembled to deal with Russian aggression in the region.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 10:58:15


Post by: Iron_Captain


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
The Crimea was always part of Russia, in the peoples hearts.
Giving it to Ukraine was a mistake.


Actually, the mistake was killing or deporting the Ukrainians living there to Siberia under this guy called Stalin, who replaced them with loyal party members. The inhabitants of Crimea got the particularly heavy end of the hammer for having been one of the last holdouts in the region against communism. Nikita Khrushchev (who was actually from Donbas) gave it to the Ukraine after denouncing the mass purges Stalin conducted.

The Crimea was part of Russia in the people's hearts once Stalin got done carving them out and leaving them in the bloody snow. It's sort of like saying that Czechoslovakia was always part of Germany in the people's hearts.
There were no Ukrainians in the Crimea before Stalin. Before the deportations, the cities and Sevastopol especially were populated by ethnic Russians while the rural areas were mainly populated by Crimean Tatars. The Tatars were deported because Stalin did not like them and they had cooperated with the Nazis. The Ukrainians mainly started emigrating to Crimea after the Ukrainian Kruschchev gave it to the Ukrainian SSR, which didn't actually have any effect because Russia and Ukraine were the same country. This decision was motivated by: "the commonality of the economy, the proximity, and close economic and cultural relations between the Crimean region and the Ukrainian SSR". Nonetheless Russians always remained the majority. If Kruschchev really had condemned Stalin's purges, he would have allowed the Crimean Tatars to return, which he didn't. The Crimean Tatars had a reputation for dissent, and Kruschchev didn't like them any better than Stalin.
Crimea can't be compared to Czechoslovakia, which was an independent state mainly populated by Czechs and Slovaks, not Germans, and had never been considered a part of Germany. Crimea has been in the Russian people's hearts since they captured it in the 18th century, signalling the end of centuries of war against the Tatars. Sevastopol especially holds a special place in Russian history as 'The City of Russian Glory'. This place became even more special in WW2, with the heroic last stand of the Red Army. Sevastopol is a sacred city to the Russians. It has a huge historical and symbolic value.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 11:01:34


Post by: Frazzled


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
The Crimea was always part of Russia, in the peoples hearts.
Giving it to Ukraine was a mistake.


Actually, the mistake was killing or deporting the Ukrainians living there to Siberia under this guy called Stalin, who replaced them with loyal party members. The inhabitants of Crimea got the particularly heavy end of the hammer for having been one of the last holdouts in the region against communism. Nikita Khrushchev (who was actually from Donbas) gave it to the Ukraine after denouncing the mass purges Stalin conducted.

The Crimea was part of Russia in the people's hearts once Stalin got done carving them out and leaving them in the bloody snow. It's sort of like saying that Czechoslovakia was always part of Germany in the people's hearts.


Indeed. Even after the Ukraine was happy for the Germans coming, thinking they were being liberated. That didn't turn out so well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Storm Shadow wrote:
I believe Putin to quite certainly be a madman.


Really? Why? Nothing he's done has indicated madness, just good calculation, specific goals, and careful timelines to achieve those goals.


Putin, he's dreamy...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 13:44:26


Post by: elotar


Just some historical trivia:

Crimea was conquered by Russian Empire in 1795. After the conquest 2/3 of the 450k tatar population was killed or deported. 7k russians took their place.

Second deportation/killing was after the Crimean war (1864)
Tatar population dropped from 350k to 200k, russians rose from 23k to 42k.

Third departation was by Stalin after WW2
All 220k tatars was gone(as well as other minority ethnic groups), number of russians was rised to 860k

At 2007 census there was:
1,450k Russians
577k Ukranians
245k Tatars
~60k other ethnic groups

So yea, there are more than half russian population there, but not really much more and mostly because of 200 years of ethnic cleansing.

The second idea, which somehow is lost by most, is that Russian Empire, Soviet Union and Russian Federation is not the different names of the one country, but 3 absolutely different countries, which just happen to share some(!) territory.

So something like - "Sevastopol especially holds a special place in Russian history as 'The City of Russian Glory'" is total ... crap. It can have some special place in history of the Soviet union/Russian empire, but those countries was predesessors for both modern Russian Federation and Ukraine equally.

At the time of the Russian Empire there was no "Russia" or "Ukraine". Borders of this "republics" was arbitrary drawn by bolshevics(commies) after winning civil war. Then one of the bolshevics changed borders (quite reasonably, cause there is no land connection between Russia and Crimea). But somehow first arbitrary drawing is called "right" and the second "wrong", despite that at the signing of the independence declaration after the fall of Soviet Union, both parties agreed to stay within the "second" borders.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:


Really? Why? Nothing he's done has indicated madness, just good calculation, specific goals, and careful timelines to achieve those goals.

Putin, he's dreamy...


Putin is just playing RL Civilisation with Russia. He want high score, but don't want to bother with boring economy/culture.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 15:57:46


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Frazzled wrote:


Indeed. Even after the Ukraine was happy for the Germans coming, thinking they were being liberated. That didn't turn out so well.


Well, it was fine as the actual army was moving through. When the SS turned up afterwards though....


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 17:24:21


Post by: loki old fart


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:


Indeed. Even after the Ukraine was happy for the Germans coming, thinking they were being liberated. That didn't turn out so well.


Well, it was fine as the actual army was moving through. When the SS turned up afterwards though....

Indeed, some were so frightened they joined up. Check your history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Galician%29


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 17:41:09


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 loki old fart wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:


Indeed. Even after the Ukraine was happy for the Germans coming, thinking they were being liberated. That didn't turn out so well.


Well, it was fine as the actual army was moving through. When the SS turned up afterwards though....

Indeed, some were so frightened they joined up. Check your history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Galician%29


Oh yeah some of them did. Though when I referred to the SS I was more referring to the Einsatzgruppen than the actual fighting divisions. Some Ukrainians and other eastern Europeans were guards at some of the concentration camps, though.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 17:44:19


Post by: Iron_Captain


elotar wrote:

The second idea, which somehow is lost by most, is that Russian Empire, Soviet Union and Russian Federation is not the different names of the one country, but 3 absolutely different countries, which just happen to share some(!) territory.
The government and name changed, but the country always remained Russia, whether it was Russian Empire, RSFSR, Soviet Union or Russian Federation. The Russian Federation is a sucessor to the Russian Empire, and both countries were Russia. Ukraine is also a sucessor to the Russian Empire and Soviet Union, but it never was Russia, it was Ukraine, even when it was part of Russian Empire. Legally, the succesor of the Russian Empire and SSSR is Russian Federation.

elotar wrote:
So something like - "Sevastopol especially holds a special place in Russian history as 'The City of Russian Glory'" is total ... crap. It can have some special place in history of the Soviet union/Russian empire, but those countries was predesessors for both modern Russian Federation and Ukraine equally.
That is not how the nationalists think...
And I think Putin is a nationalist.

elotar wrote:
At the time of the Russian Empire there was no "Russia" or "Ukraine". Borders of this "republics" was arbitrary drawn by bolshevics(commies) after winning civil war. Then one of the bolshevics changed borders (quite reasonably, cause there is no land connection between Russia and Crimea). But somehow first arbitrary drawing is called "right" and the second "wrong", despite that at the signing of the independence declaration after the fall of Soviet Union, both parties agreed to stay within the "second" borders.
Giving Crimea to Ukraine was a mistake, but it only was a mistake in hindsight. At the time, no one could ever have predicted this crisis would happen. Legally, re-annexing Crimea was wrong, as it was against laws and agreements. But morally, I think it was right. Crimea fits better with Russia than with Ukraine.



elotar wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:


Really? Why? Nothing he's done has indicated madness, just good calculation, specific goals, and careful timelines to achieve those goals.

Putin, he's dreamy...


Putin is just playing RL Civilisation with Russia. He want high score, but don't want to bother with boring economy/culture.

Than Putin is a pansy, he set the AI to 'easy'
I think Putin bothers with economy, just look how much it has improved since Jeltsin. But Putin also considers other things more important than economy. He wants to make Russia great and powerful again, that is his biggest goal.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 17:52:18


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Iron_Captain wrote:

Than Putin is a pansy, he set the AI to 'easy'
I think Putin bothers with economy, just look how much it has improved since Jeltsin. But Putin also considers other things more important than economy. He wants to make Russia great and powerful again, that is his biggest goal.


You can't have a great and powerful country without a great and powerful economy. The USSR failed because it never had the economy required to sustain itself whilst providing people a good standard of living, especially when it was competing in an incredibly expensive arms race with the USA.

People in the USSR realised the West had it better and decided to try and break away from the USSR. The rest is history.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 17:57:38


Post by: DarkTraveler777


France is not going to deliver the first of two warships commissioned by Russia.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29052599

France has said conditions are "not right" for delivery of the first of two Mistral navy assault ships to Russia.

President Francois Hollande's office blamed Moscow's recent actions in Ukraine.

France had until now resisted pressure to halt the delivery.

It had said it needed to respect an existing contract, to which EU sanctions could not apply retroactively, and that it would have been too costly to cancel.

The Vladivostok, the first of the two helicopter carriers, was expected to have been delivered to Russia by late October.

The second, the Sevastopol, was to have been sent next year, although no mention of it was made in Mr Hollande's statement.

Analysis: Jonathan Marcus, BBC defence and diplomatic correspondent
As the crisis has escalated in eastern Ukraine and as Russia's direct military role there has become more blatant, so the pressure on the French government to halt its sale of two advanced assault ships to Russia has grown ever stronger.

The US and a number of other countries have long made their feelings plain. But the deal weathered tensions with Moscow over Syria, and the Russian crew of the first vessel which is already undergoing sea trials has travelled to France to begin training.

This was the most significant Western arms sale to Russia and its postponement - the exact terms of the suspension of the deal are not clear - marks a very visible rebuff to Moscow on the eve of Nato's Wales Summit.

The Mistral assault ships can carry up to 16 heavy helicopters, land troops and armoured vehicles. Their delivery would have resulted in a marked improvement in Russia's amphibious capability.

But Mr Hollande's office said Wednesday's remarks by the Russian and Ukrainian presidents about a possible ceasefire were not enough to allow France to give it the go-ahead.

"The president of the republic has concluded that despite the prospect of ceasefire, which has yet to be confirmed and put in place, the conditions under which France could authorise the delivery of the first helicopter carrier are not in place," it said in a statement.

Peace deal hopes
Earlier on Wednesday, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said he had agreed a "ceasefire process" with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin.

Mr Putin said he hoped a peace deal could be reached by Friday, when representatives of Russia, Ukraine and the rebels meet in Minsk for talks.

The pro-Russian rebels have said they support Mr Putin's proposals, but that they do not trust Mr Poroshenko to maintain a ceasefire.

It is not clear whether any truce is being observed on the ground.

Meanwhile, in Estonia, US President Barack Obama sought to reassure the Baltic states that they would be protected by Nato, and said that Washington would stand by Ukraine.

Analysis: Oleg Boldyrev, BBC News, Moscow
Insisting that Russia is in no way a negotiating party in the Ukrainian conflict, Vladimir Putin is nevertheless certain that it is Moscow's proposals that are going to advance both sides to peace. Mr Putin's plan is short and leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

Take, for example, a point on moving Ukrainian troops away from positions from which towns and cities can be shelled. Taken to an extreme, this could mean rewinding the situation on the ground to a point several weeks ago before Ukrainian advances.

Just two weeks ago the discussions centred around when, and not if, the rebels would have to move out of Donetsk and Luhansk. But Moscow's plan will allow them to strengthen their control over the two regional centres and other areas.

Mr Putin has often seemed unwilling to negotiate from a position of weakness and the reversals of the past few days illustrate this perfectly. Now it's Petro Poroshenko who has to choose whether to accept something which clearly protects Kiev's enemies in eastern Ukraine.

Grey line
The announcements come a day before a Nato summit in Wales which is expected to discuss the alliance's response to Russia's involvement in the Ukraine conflict.

More than 2,600 civilians and combatants have been killed and more than a million people have fled their homes since fighting erupted in eastern Ukraine in April, when pro-Russian separatists there declared independence.

Russia has denied accusations by the West and the Ukrainian government that it is sending troops and military equipment over the border to support the separatists, who recently gained the upper hand against government forces.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 17:57:54


Post by: Ketara


 A Town Called Malus wrote:

People in the USSR realised the West had it better and decided to try and break away from the USSR. The rest is history.


Yes. Everyone in the Soviet Union realised that they wanted Uncle Sam's apple pie, and so they overthrew their rulers to break away and form the democratic capitalistic Russia that they'd always wanted.

Pull the other one.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 18:21:38


Post by: whembly


That's kinda a big dealio there...

That's a lotta money spent.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 18:24:22


Post by: Frazzled


If Estonia believes NATO will protect it, thats just...funny.

NATO is dead.

Georgia: Nothing done.
Crimea: Nothing done.
Ukraine: Nothing done.

Sure if Russia launched 15 tank divisions to invade all of Western Europe, its WWIII. If Russia does just like Ukraine and begins to nibble? Nah.

If Russia retook every non Warsaw Pact former USSR state, would anyone do anything? Doubtful.

Putin has to keep going, else people will remember that their economy is on par with Ecuador at this point.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 18:28:43


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 Frazzled wrote:
If Estonia believes NATO will protect it, thats just...funny.

NATO is dead.

Why/how?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 18:29:08


Post by: Iron_Captain


 whembly wrote:
That's kinda a big dealio there...

That's a lotta money spent.
If France does not deliver those ships, it has to pay back the original price to Russia, plus the fine for breaching the contract, which is even more expensive than the cost of those ships. And they are left with 4 useless ships.
Glad I am not a French taxpayer...
Nonetheless, putting a arms contract on hold for the duration of a conflict is a reasonable decision. Just have to see how Russia will take it.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
If Estonia believes NATO will protect it, thats just...funny.

NATO is dead.

Why/how?
Because Western Europe, which is a major part of NATO, is neither prepared nor willing to defend the Baltic States in the event of a Russian invasion. They may condemn it with lots of strong words, but when it comes to the point that they'll actually have to take up arms and give up their lives to protect those areas, they will bail out. Western Europeans don't want to die fighting for a region they actually care little for. Even if it should come to a war, they will have already lost it because of that. Morale is the most important factor in warfare.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 18:34:32


Post by: Frazzled


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
If Estonia believes NATO will protect it, thats just...funny.

NATO is dead.

Why/how?

I'm sorry what is NATO going to do again? Western Europe's defense spending is deminimis. They don't even have resupply planes and relied on the US for Libya.

Europe is on a natural gas high on Russian gas. They won't rock the boat.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 18:35:08


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Ketara wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:

People in the USSR realised the West had it better and decided to try and break away from the USSR. The rest is history.


Yes. Everyone in the Soviet Union realised that they wanted Uncle Sam's apple pie, and so they overthrew their rulers to break away and form the democratic capitalistic Russia that they'd always wanted.

Pull the other one.


You do know that the USSR was more than Russia, right? East Germany, Poland, Hungary etc.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 18:39:36


Post by: Iron_Captain


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:

People in the USSR realised the West had it better and decided to try and break away from the USSR. The rest is history.


Yes. Everyone in the Soviet Union realised that they wanted Uncle Sam's apple pie, and so they overthrew their rulers to break away and form the democratic capitalistic Russia that they'd always wanted.

Pull the other one.


You do know that the USSR was more than Russia, right? East Germany, Poland, Hungary etc.

You do know that none of those countries were part of the USSR, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact
Basic history. Learn it.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 18:53:51


Post by: Frazzled


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 whembly wrote:
That's kinda a big dealio there...

That's a lotta money spent.
If France does not deliver those ships, it has to pay back the original price to Russia, plus the fine for breaching the contract, which is even more expensive than the cost of those ships. And they are left with 4 useless ships.
Glad I am not a French taxpayer...
Nonetheless, putting a arms contract on hold for the duration of a conflict is a reasonable decision. Just have to see how Russia will take it.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
If Estonia believes NATO will protect it, thats just...funny.

NATO is dead.

Why/how?
Because Western Europe, which is a major part of NATO, is neither prepared nor willing to defend the Baltic States in the event of a Russian invasion. They may condemn it with lots of strong words, but when it comes to the point that they'll actually have to take up arms and give up their lives to protect those areas, they will bail out. Western Europeans don't want to die fighting for a region they actually care little for. Even if it should come to a war, they will have already lost it because of that. Morale is the most important factor in warfare.


Or it can just tell Russia to off.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 19:32:37


Post by: Redcruisair


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Because Western Europe, which is a major part of NATO, is neither prepared nor willing to defend the Baltic States in the event of a Russian invasion. They may condemn it with lots of strong words, but when it comes to the point that they'll actually have to take up arms and give up their lives to protect those areas, they will bail out. Western Europeans don't want to die fighting for a region they actually care little for. Even if it should come to a war, they will have already lost it because of that. Morale is the most important factor in warfare.

Western Europeans were willing enough to fight at considerable risk to their own lives in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Both wars that were started by another country outside of Europe (the US,) and against countries they had little reason to make war with.

So your ramblings on how “Europeans lacking the will” to risk their life protecting the national sovereignty of allied countries against an aggressive power is downright laughable.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 19:44:17


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Because Western Europe, which is a major part of NATO, is neither prepared nor willing to defend the Baltic States in the event of a Russian invasion. They may condemn it with lots of strong words, but when it comes to the point that they'll actually have to take up arms and give up their lives to protect those areas, they will bail out. Western Europeans don't want to die fighting for a region they actually care little for. Even if it should come to a war, they will have already lost it because of that. Morale is the most important factor in warfare.

Western Europeans were willing enough to fight at considerable risk to their own lives in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Both wars that were started by another country outside of Europe (the US,) and against countries they had little reason to make war with.

So your ramblings on how “Europeans lacking the will” to risk their life protecting the national sovereignty of allied countries against an aggressive power is downright laughable.
Iraq and Afghanistan were far away, and Europe was already far from enthusiastic about it. It will be different if war means that Western Europe itself will be threatened. The enemy in Iraq and Afghanistant were bands of unorganised farmers with light weaponry. The enemy here is the third largest armed force in the world, with ten thousands of tanks, aircraft and nuclear missiles. Comparing both conflicts is silly. The relatively few soldiers deployed to Iraq and Afghanistant were full-time professionals. The tiny professional militaries of Western Europe won't be enough to defend the Baltic States. In Afghanistan and Iraq there were a few hundred European casualties. In a hypothetical war against Russia, regardless of who will win, there will be tens of thousands of European casualties.
Are you willing to die for Estonia? Are you willing to risk the lives of your children for Estonia?


Let us just hope that both sides will keep their heads cool so that after the crisis is over, we can all pretend it never happened and have nice tea. With biscuits. Nice biscuits.
I don't want war. Nobody should want war. Europeans are smart in that regard, smarter than Russians.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 19:51:05


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 Iron_Captain wrote:

I don't want war. Nobody should want war. Europeans are smart in that regard, smarter than Russians.



Honestly, I think this is the best thing you've said in this whole thread. There's a ton of quotes out there from famous generals about how horrible war is that I could put up here (but I wont).... And I think you're generally correct that Europeans are "smarter" about their desire to not see a war, however, I personally think they've gone a bit wrong.

I say that because, while even the USA doesn't really "want" war (well except for maybe the CEOs of companies like General Dynamics, Boeing, Lockheed, etc. Also known as the Military Industrial Complex who profit off of the DoD buying their gak), however we definitely prepare for it. I understand why many European nations have very small standing militaries, I just wonder if they have some sort of a system in place to rapidly expand that military in a time of need (like a draft or conscription system, as the US does)


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 19:51:58


Post by: Frazzled


Iron_Captain wrote:Are you willing to die for Estonia? Are you willing to risk the lives of your children for Estonia?



Are you Baby Blue? St. Petersberg will look especially nice on the winter's dawn all radioactive like.

An attack on NATO is MADD.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 19:55:00


Post by: Ketara


 Iron_Captain wrote:

Are you willing to die for Estonia? Are you willing to risk the lives of your children for Estonia?


Yes. In a nutshell. That's what NATO means. Russia will get away with it in ukraine, and maybe in Belarus or Kazakhstan. But a NATO member? That WOULD spark a full scale war. I think Britain proved that when it jumped in for Belgium and Poland in the past. To quote Lord Palmerston:

Lord Palmerston wrote:
England has no eternal friendships and no eternal enemies, only eternal interests.


And having Russia rampaging through Europe again would be heavily in breach of those interests.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 19:57:09


Post by: Frazzled


Again, Russia engaging in military war with NATO means the likelihood of all out nuclear war is almost inevitable.

In the words of our founder: "So you have to ask yourself, do you feel lucky...punk?"*


*Although the God King TBone has had to suffer your many and varied insults and blasphemies, He is not in fact calling anyone a punk. Its a line from a movie, like this sentence, in case anyone is not aware.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 19:58:31


Post by: whembly


You'd think we'd go full-on nukes in this day and age?

Or, full scale war w/o nukes?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 20:03:25


Post by: Frazzled


 whembly wrote:
You'd think we'd go full-on nukes in this day and age?

Or, full scale war w/o nukes?


Well when I was a wee lad, all the scenarios ended up with the heartwarming images of thousands of missile arcs ala Wargames.

Either we can't stop them and start nuking and it builds or they can't handle our response and same or someone gets smart and just goes all nukey nukey from the get go.

If it was the Chinese I'd just say they hit the Cylon switch, deactivate everything with computer viruses and then bomb us into oblivion....


"The Cylons were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. There are many copies. And they have a plan."


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 20:32:59


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Because Western Europe, which is a major part of NATO, is neither prepared nor willing to defend the Baltic States in the event of a Russian invasion. They may condemn it with lots of strong words, but when it comes to the point that they'll actually have to take up arms and give up their lives to protect those areas, they will bail out. Western Europeans don't want to die fighting for a region they actually care little for. Even if it should come to a war, they will have already lost it because of that. Morale is the most important factor in warfare.

Western Europeans were willing enough to fight at considerable risk to their own lives in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Both wars that were started by another country outside of Europe (the US,) and against countries they had little reason to make war with.

So your ramblings on how “Europeans lacking the will” to risk their life protecting the national sovereignty of allied countries against an aggressive power is downright laughable.


I beg to differ.

The February 15, 2003 anti-war protest was a coordinated day of protests across the world in which people in more than 600 cities expressing opposition to the imminent Iraq War. It was part of a series of protests and political events that had begun in 2002 and continued as the war took place. Social movement researchers have described the 15 February protest as "the largest protest event in human history."

Sources vary in their estimations of the number of participants involved. According to BBC News, between six and ten million people took part in protests in up to sixty countries over the weekend of the 15th and 16th; other estimates range from eight million to thirty million.[/b]

Some of the largest protests took place in Europe. The protest in Rome involved around three million people, and is listed in the 2004 Guinness Book of World Records as the largest anti-war rally in history.Madrid hosted the second largest rally with more than 1½ million people protesting the invasion of Iraq; Mainland China was the only major region not to see any protests on that day, but small demonstrations, attended mainly by foreign students, were seen later.


The protest in Rome involved around three million people, and is listed in the 2004 Guinness Book of World Records as the largest anti-war rally in history.


The protest in Rome involved around three million people


involved around three million people


three million people


One protest. One City. One Day. 3 million people.

And that is naturally only a tiny fraction of the people who opposed the Iraq War.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest


I may have been 12 at the time, and not particularly interested in politics or the War beyond thinking all the soldiers, tanks and fighter jets on the news were cool, but even I was aware at the time that the Iraq war was almost universally reviled.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Redcruisair wrote:
Western Europeans were willing enough to fight at considerable risk to their own lives in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Both wars that were started by another country outside of Europe (the US,) and against countries they had little reason to make war with.

So your ramblings on how “Europeans lacking the will” to risk their life protecting the national sovereignty of allied countries against an aggressive power is downright laughable.


Also, as you're clearly referring to the soldiers...Soldiers HAVE NO CHOICE in the matter. They were not so much willing to risk their lives going to War in Iraq, so much as they were willing to risk their life doing their duty. Their Governments told them it was their duty to go to Iraq and that it was in our National Interests. I'm of the opinion that our Governments lied about that.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 20:50:39


Post by: Redcruisair


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Iraq and Afghanistan were far away, and Europe was already far from enthusiastic about it.

The point being they agreed to help, even if they didn’t have too.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It will be different if war means that Western Europe itself will be threatened.

Correct. It will be a massively different conflict. Such a conflict will be about protecting Western Europe and its eastern allies from a dubious, apolitical and clearly aggressive power.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The enemy in Iraq and Afghanistant were bands of unorganised farmers with light weaponry.

Unorganized farmers, who broke the back of the Soviet army, when it invaded Afghanistan back in the day. You don’t know a lot about guerilla warfare do you?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The enemy here is the third largest armed force in the world, with ten thousands of tanks, aircraft and nuclear missiles.

Nuclear weaponry is not unique to Russia. France, Britain and the US have nuclear weapons of their own, and Germany, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands and turkey are all part of NATO’s nuclear sharing program.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Comparing both conflicts is silly. The relatively few soldiers deployed to Iraq and Afghanistant were full-time professionals. The tiny professional militaries of Western Europe won't be enough to defend the Baltic States. In Afghanistan and Iraq there were a few hundred European casualties.

Russia has 1,040,000 active military personal. The combined number of all of EU’s active military personal is 1,551,038. That’s 416,238 more than Russia. Add the US to the mix, the US is part of NATO after all, and all of sudden the situation becomes pretty dire for the kremlins.

So no easy steamrolling for Russia to be had here I’m afraid.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
In a hypothetical war against Russia, there will be tens of thousands of European casualties.

And I’m to take your word for it?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Are you willing to risk the lives of your children for Estonia?

I don’t have any children, so that’s a nonfactor to me.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Are you willing to die for Estonia?

To put it bluntly, yes.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I don't want war. Nobody should want war.

I Agree.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So Shadow Captain Edithae, if understand you correctly, you do not think we Europeans won’t support a war to help a fellow NATO country in need?

Is that what you are saying, because that’s what it reads too me?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:00:15


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ketara wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

Are you willing to die for Estonia? Are you willing to risk the lives of your children for Estonia?


Yes. In a nutshell. That's what NATO means. Russia will get away with it in ukraine, and maybe in Belarus or Kazakhstan. But a NATO member? That WOULD spark a full scale war. I think Britain proved that when it jumped in for Belgium and Poland in the past.
True. But the world has changed since then, as has the average Briton's opinion of war. And Britain is one of the more hawkish, warlike nations in Europe. I can't really imagine Germany or the Netherlands doing the same.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:01:30


Post by: Frazzled


At the same time militarily how strong is Russia now? Are they even capable of deploying even a full division at this point?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:08:10


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Redcruisair wrote:
So Shadow Captain Edithae, if understand you correctly, you do not think we Europeans won’t support a war to help a fellow NATO country in need?

Is that what you are saying, because that’s what it reads too me?


Go back and read my comment again.

I said nothing about Ukraine (Edit: or Estonia? whichever you're referring to. Ukraine's not a NATO member)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Are you willing to die for Estonia?

To put it bluntly, yes.


Are you currently a member of your country's armed forces? Or will you be enlisting?

This strikes me as empty internet boasting under the cover of anonymity.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:31:11


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Redcruisair wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The enemy in Iraq and Afghanistant were bands of unorganised farmers with light weaponry.

Unorganized farmers, who broke the back of the Soviet army, when it invaded Afghanistan back in the day. You don’t know a lot about guerilla warfare do you?
Unorganised farmers that somehow magically got all the latest modern weapons.
But anyhow, the Soviets only suffered relatively light casualties. It was not the Afghani guerillas that broke the back of the Soviet Army, it was the Soviet economy. The only credit the Afghanis deserve is that they avoided total destruction and managed to put up resistence long enough for the Soviet economy to collapse because of the costs.
In any case, they were and are not comparable in threat level to a modern, well trained and motivated convential army.


 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Comparing both conflicts is silly. The relatively few soldiers deployed to Iraq and Afghanistant were full-time professionals. The tiny professional militaries of Western Europe won't be enough to defend the Baltic States. In Afghanistan and Iraq there were a few hundred European casualties.

Russia has 1,040,000 active military personal. The combined number of all of EU’s active military personal is 1,551,038. That’s 416,238 more than Russia. Add the US to the mix, the US is part of NATO after all, and all of sudden the situation becomes pretty dire for the kremlins.

So no easy steamrolling for Russia to be had here I’m afraid.
Those 1,551,038 men are divided over many small national armies with only a limited amount of cooperation. And judging from the difficulty the EU has with even setting up small military missions, most of those are far from battle-ready. Meanwhile, Russia has about a 100.000 in mechanised and armoured divisions that only need a single command to get rolling. They will have covered a huge amount of territory before Europe will be able to put up an effective resistance.
And American soldiers are not that great of a help when they are an ocean away. It will take a lot of time before they will arrive. And that is if they arrive. Should Russia attack NATO, it is likely China will take its chance as well and invade US allies in the Far East.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
In a hypothetical war against Russia, there will be tens of thousands of European casualties.

And I’m to take your word for it?
It is only logical. Look at large-scale convential wars of the past. Weapons have only gotten deadlier since then. It is actually a pretty conservative estimate.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Are you willing to risk the lives of your children for Estonia?

I don’t have any children, so that’s a nonfactor to me.
But many others do, and I am sure most of them would put the safety of their children over Estonia.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Are you willing to die for Estonia?

To put it bluntly, yes.
I think most Europeans disagree with you. At least, almost all Europeans I know, and I know a lot of them.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
I don't want war. Nobody should want war.

I Agree.
Why are you willing to die in a war you don't want?



If I may ask a question to you: Why should Europe support a fellow NATO country? The NATO is an outdated, jingoistic organisation that should have been disbanded when the Cold War, and NATO's purpose with it, ended. NATO has become a threat to world peace now that it is no longer kept in balance by the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact. In my opinion, the EU member state should leave NATO and integrate their respective armed forces into a single, unified European military instead. That way, Europe won't get drawn into any wars.

 Frazzled wrote:
At the same time militarily how strong is Russia now? Are they even capable of deploying even a full division at this point?

I found this chart:
Spoiler:

It seems to be from the beginning of the crisis.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:35:09


Post by: Frazzled


(looks at Soviet er Russian tanks in Ukraine) Cold war's over? Ok, sure.

But agreed I think NATO's dead unless the RUssians invade a NATO country. Then RUssia dies.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:38:13


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Frazzled wrote:
(looks at Soviet er Russian tanks in Ukraine) Cold war's over?

Unless the West would like to start it again...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:40:44


Post by: squidhills


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
(looks at Soviet er Russian tanks in Ukraine) Cold war's over?

Unless the West would like to start it again...


Putin seems to want to.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:41:21


Post by: Frazzled


Again, I see Russian tanks in Georgia. Russian tanks in Ukraine.

Its already started.

Of course this time the Russian economy is smaller than Brazil's (seriously).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:41:42


Post by: motyak


Russia has about a 100.000 in mechanised and armoured divisions that only need a single command to get rolling.


I don't think you understand how modern armed forces work. Nothing that size happens that quickly. You better believe the Russian sparkies and grease monkeys are as behind on their maintenance quotas as everyone else in the world, that the queys want everything filled out 20 times before it shifts and inch, and that you just generally can't say 'go' to 100,000 men and get them rolling, simply because you can't keep 100,000 men at the ready condition that long.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:43:30


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Frazzled wrote:
Again, I see Russian tanks in Georgia. Russian tanks in Ukraine.

Its already started.

Of course this time the Russian economy is smaller than Brazil's (seriously).
Both parts of the former Soviet Union. Why is the West suddenly so interested in them, when they weren't before?

 motyak wrote:
Russia has about a 100.000 in mechanised and armoured divisions that only need a single command to get rolling.


I don't think you understand how modern armed forces work. Nothing that size happens that quickly. You better believe the Russian sparkies and grease monkeys are as behind on their maintenance quotas as everyone else in the world, that the queys want everything filled out 20 times before it shifts and inch, and that you just generally can't say 'go' to 100,000 men and get them rolling, simply because you can't keep 100,000 men at the ready condition that long.
Russia has so far been quite sucessful in rotating battle-ready divisions along the Ukrainian border.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 21:44:48


Post by: Frazzled


Why are you?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 22:47:49


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Iron_Captain wrote:

If I may ask a question to you: Why should Europe support a fellow NATO country? The NATO is an outdated, jingoistic organisation that should have been disbanded when the Cold War, and NATO's purpose with it, ended. NATO has become a threat to world peace now that it is no longer kept in balance by the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact. In my opinion, the EU member state should leave NATO and integrate their respective armed forces into a single, unified European military instead. That way, Europe won't get drawn into any wars.


In such an event NATO would by definition not be outdated, would it?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 23:13:44


Post by: loki old fart


Lets see.
According to der spiegel the german airforce is well under funded.
We sold the harriers, and some mrca"s
The challenger II's are in mothballs. and the crews released from service.
we have no planes for the aircraft carriers we've got. (thanks to the f35)
We are well prepared.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 23:17:39


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 loki old fart wrote:
Lets see.
According to der spiegel the german airforce is well under funded.
We sold the harriers, and some mrca"s
The challenger II's are in mothballs. and the crews released from service.
we have no planes for the aircraft carriers we've got. (thanks to the f35)
We are well prepared.


We have no aircraft carriers at all at the moment, never mind the planes to launch from them


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 23:18:16


Post by: Iron_Captain


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

If I may ask a question to you: Why should Europe support a fellow NATO country? The NATO is an outdated, jingoistic organisation that should have been disbanded when the Cold War, and NATO's purpose with it, ended. NATO has become a threat to world peace now that it is no longer kept in balance by the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact. In my opinion, the EU member state should leave NATO and integrate their respective armed forces into a single, unified European military instead. That way, Europe won't get drawn into any wars.


In such an event NATO would by definition not be outdated, would it?
What such event? The EU leaving NATO and creating a military of its own? How would that not make NATO outdated? An organisation should never outlive its purpose. What does the EU need NATO for? Isn't the EU much better of taking the reins in their own hands? Not only would Europe be rid of the jingoistic NATO, while still capable of properly defending its borders, it would also make Russia feel much less threatened and would take the wind out of the sails of the Russian nationalists.
The stronger the NATO response is, the more threatened Russia will feel, which will only fuel radical nationalism and agression on their part. It is much better to disband dangerous divisive organisations like NATO. What people in the West may not realise is that NATO indirectly has a very large part in causing the current conflict in Ukraine, as well as the earlier conflict in Georgia. Russia feels very threatened by the needless (and illegal, as they had promised never to do so) NATO expansion towards its borders, for seemingly no other purpose but to work against Russia. It is a major cause for why Russia has been acting so agressive in defending its interests lately.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
Lets see.
According to der spiegel the german airforce is well under funded.
We sold the harriers, and some mrca"s
The challenger II's are in mothballs. and the crews released from service.
we have no planes for the aircraft carriers we've got. (thanks to the f35)
We are well prepared.


We have no aircraft carriers at all at the moment, never mind the planes to launch from them
And the Dutch sold all of their tanks (and most other equipment), while the panzergrenadier units have been reported to lack ammunition for training
Europe really needs to up its military spending, altough creating a unified army would already go a long way.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 23:22:38


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Russia has no reason to view countries joining NATO as threatening or hostile unless it has intentions to attack them. If it does and then cannot due to fear of the NATO response then NATO is working exactly as intended.

Also, I'm curious as to how you define NATO as jingoistic but apparently not Russia?

Jingoism:
extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.

The wars/military actions that NATO has "pursued":
Bosnia/Herzegovina
Kosovo
Afghanistan due to Article 5 (attack on one NATO nation is an attack on all)
Anti-piracy in Gulf of Aden (trying to stop Somali pirates)
Intervention in Libya in the form of a no-fly zone and ground attacks on Gaddafi's forces.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 23:26:03


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
Lets see.
According to der spiegel the german airforce is well under funded.
We sold the harriers, and some mrca"s
The challenger II's are in mothballs. and the crews released from service.
we have no planes for the aircraft carriers we've got. (thanks to the f35)
We are well prepared.


We have no aircraft carriers at all at the moment, never mind the planes to launch from them

There's only one way to solve this!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 23:26:09


Post by: Iron_Captain


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Russia has no reason to view countries joining NATO as threatening or hostile unless it has intentions to attack them. If it does and then cannot due to fear of the NATO response then NATO is working exactly as intended.
So... tell me: If the US (or UK for that matter) was suddenly surrounded by countries in a military alliance with Russia and China, would it feel threatened?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 23:30:17


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Russia has no reason to view countries joining NATO as threatening or hostile unless it has intentions to attack them. If it does and then cannot due to fear of the NATO response then NATO is working exactly as intended.
So... tell me: If the US (or UK for that matter) was suddenly surrounded by countries in a military alliance with Russia and China, would it feel threatened?


Considering the Iraqi WMD debacle...We Brits feel threatened if another country so much as looks at us funny.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 23:35:03


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
Lets see.
According to der spiegel the german airforce is well under funded.
We sold the harriers, and some mrca"s
The challenger II's are in mothballs. and the crews released from service.
we have no planes for the aircraft carriers we've got. (thanks to the f35)
We are well prepared.


We have no aircraft carriers at all at the moment, never mind the planes to launch from them

There's only one way to solve this!
Spoiler:

Ah Scandinavia and the World


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Russia has no reason to view countries joining NATO as threatening or hostile unless it has intentions to attack them. If it does and then cannot due to fear of the NATO response then NATO is working exactly as intended.
So... tell me: If the US (or UK for that matter) was suddenly surrounded by countries in a military alliance with Russia and China, would it feel threatened?

Considering the Iraqi WMD debacle...We Brits feel threatened if another country so much as looks at us funny.


Yeah, pretty much this. But we have our "special relationship" with the US to keep us safe.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 23:50:57


Post by: loki old fart


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Russia has no reason to view countries joining NATO as threatening or hostile unless it has intentions to attack them. If it does and then cannot due to fear of the NATO response then NATO is working exactly as intended.

Also, I'm curious as to how you define NATO as jingoistic but apparently not Russia?

Jingoism:
extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.

The wars/military actions that NATO has "pursued":
Bosnia/Herzegovina
Kosovo
Afghanistan due to Article 5 (attack on one NATO nation is an attack on all)
Anti-piracy in Gulf of Aden (trying to stop Somali pirates)
Intervention in Libya in the form of a no-fly zone and ground attacks on Gaddafi's forces.


So when did the Taliban attack America. ?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/03 23:53:50


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 loki old fart wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Russia has no reason to view countries joining NATO as threatening or hostile unless it has intentions to attack them. If it does and then cannot due to fear of the NATO response then NATO is working exactly as intended.

Also, I'm curious as to how you define NATO as jingoistic but apparently not Russia?

Jingoism:
extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.

The wars/military actions that NATO has "pursued":
Bosnia/Herzegovina
Kosovo
Afghanistan due to Article 5 (attack on one NATO nation is an attack on all)
Anti-piracy in Gulf of Aden (trying to stop Somali pirates)
Intervention in Libya in the form of a no-fly zone and ground attacks on Gaddafi's forces.


So when did the Taliban attack America. ?

Believe it was due to the Taliban harbouring Al Qaeda or some such thing.

At least it was the right country that time, as opposed to Iraq which had no Al Qaeda connections at all


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 00:12:52


Post by: Experiment 626


 loki old fart wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Russia has no reason to view countries joining NATO as threatening or hostile unless it has intentions to attack them. If it does and then cannot due to fear of the NATO response then NATO is working exactly as intended.

Also, I'm curious as to how you define NATO as jingoistic but apparently not Russia?

Jingoism:
extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.

The wars/military actions that NATO has "pursued":
Bosnia/Herzegovina
Kosovo
Afghanistan due to Article 5 (attack on one NATO nation is an attack on all)
Anti-piracy in Gulf of Aden (trying to stop Somali pirates)
Intervention in Libya in the form of a no-fly zone and ground attacks on Gaddafi's forces.


So when did the Taliban attack America. ?


So giving safe harbour, training grounds, funding most of AQ's needs, etc... which allowed AQ to launch a cowardly sneak attack against civilian targets is doing what again?

The Taliban as the ruling government of Afghanistan were guilty by being state supporters of terror and aiding AQ in essentially declaring all out war on the US. Lesson being, if you're a rouge state and are going to big-time fund/help out a terrorist organisation, you should try at least a little harder to hide the fact and muddy the waters, while also perhaps having a key resource that your enemy wants.
ie: take the Saudi approach to these things.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 00:15:09


Post by: loki old fart


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Russia has no reason to view countries joining NATO as threatening or hostile unless it has intentions to attack them. If it does and then cannot due to fear of the NATO response then NATO is working exactly as intended.

Also, I'm curious as to how you define NATO as jingoistic but apparently not Russia?

Jingoism:
extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.

The wars/military actions that NATO has "pursued":
Bosnia/Herzegovina
Kosovo
Afghanistan due to Article 5 (attack on one NATO nation is an attack on all)
Anti-piracy in Gulf of Aden (trying to stop Somali pirates)
Intervention in Libya in the form of a no-fly zone and ground attacks on Gaddafi's forces.


So when did the Taliban attack America. ?

Believe it was due to the Taliban harbouring Al Qaeda or some such thing.

At least it was the right country that time, as opposed to Iraq which had no Al Qaeda connections at all


By that logic, when Birmingham got bombed, we should have invaded Ireland, because the IRA had bases in southern Ireland.
One of the pretexts for invading Iraq was saddam was funding terrorism. Should we have bombed mac donalds, or invaded america. both were funding the IRA via noraid.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 01:27:52


Post by: Frazzled


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
Lets see.
According to der spiegel the german airforce is well under funded.
We sold the harriers, and some mrca"s
The challenger II's are in mothballs. and the crews released from service.
we have no planes for the aircraft carriers we've got. (thanks to the f35)
We are well prepared.


We have no aircraft carriers at all at the moment, never mind the planes to launch from them


We have thousands of fusion bombs. Thats the only thing that matters and it has kept the piece for 70 years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 loki old fart wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Russia has no reason to view countries joining NATO as threatening or hostile unless it has intentions to attack them. If it does and then cannot due to fear of the NATO response then NATO is working exactly as intended.

Also, I'm curious as to how you define NATO as jingoistic but apparently not Russia?

Jingoism:
extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.

The wars/military actions that NATO has "pursued":
Bosnia/Herzegovina
Kosovo
Afghanistan due to Article 5 (attack on one NATO nation is an attack on all)
Anti-piracy in Gulf of Aden (trying to stop Somali pirates)
Intervention in Libya in the form of a no-fly zone and ground attacks on Gaddafi's forces.


So when did the Taliban attack America. ?


Sept. 11, 2001. Should have hit them with 5,000 megatons on the same day.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 01:30:21


Post by: MrDwhitey


 Frazzled wrote:

Sept. 11, 2001. Should have hit them with 5,000 megatons on the same day.


The amusing thing is, that line of thinking makes you as bad as them.

Of course you'll deny it, but there it is.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 02:41:37


Post by: whembly


 MrDwhitey wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Sept. 11, 2001. Should have hit them with 5,000 megatons on the same day.


The amusing thing is, that line of thinking makes you as bad as them.

Of course you'll deny it, but there it is.

Nah... we should've salted the fething soil too!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 06:23:34


Post by: mitch_rifle


NATO exist's to stop the europeans from attacking each other. They like to do that as history has amply demonstrated.





Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 07:46:53


Post by: Ketara


 Iron_Captain wrote:

True. But the world has changed since then, as has the average Briton's opinion of war. And Britain is one of the more hawkish, warlike nations in Europe. I can't really imagine Germany or the Netherlands doing the same.


To reiterate the previous quote:

England has no eternal friendships and no eternal enemies, only eternal interests.


Our interests would demand that we answered an invasion of the Baltics with as much force as we could muster.

I daresay Russia could occupy them easily enough, but it wouldn't hold them long. There's be five US carrier fleets parked off the coast within about a fortnight, along with a dozen odd British regiments and warships. We retain enough of our amphibious assault capabilities between us to re-enact D-day Mark 2 if we have to. That's assuming Russia launched a surprise assault.

If Russia built up its forces properly, called up the reservists, lubricated the tanks, etc, and made a general push through Europe, to quote myself, they'd probably get about a third of the way into Germany before they were stopped. But then they'd be pushed back and ground up into pieces from there.

This is why Russia will not mess with NATO. Russia has always historically been sane enough to realise that instigating the largest war since WW2 with itself more or less guaranteed to be on the losing side is not a smart move. Better by far to play the Great Game and bite off pieces of influence and land here and there when the opportunity presents itself. Putin is not the first to play this game, and he won't be the last. Russian leaders have been doing it for as long as Russia has existed.

But make no mistake about it, regardless of how some of the media portray him, Putin's no Metternich, Bismarck or Disraeli. He's also no Alexander the Great or Napoleon. He's neither a genius statesman, nor messianic military genius. He's just a somewhat mediocre ex-KGB statesman playing by a nineteenth century rulebook. He'll gobble up two or three frontier territories at enormous cost, squat in power for as long as he can, and then leave his country worse off than he found it. And then we'll probably play the same game with his successor.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 10:41:01


Post by: Redcruisair


Here’s some interesting info about Putin's plans for ending the fighting in Ukraine.

http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/22899


Vladimir Putin outlined the plan while speaking with journalists at the end of his working visit to Mongolia.

In order to stop the bloodshed and stabilise the situation in southeast Ukraine, I believe that the parties to the conflict should immediately agree on and coordinate the following steps:

1. End active offensive operations by armed forces, armed units and militia groups in southeast Ukraine in the Donetsk and Lugansk areas.

2. Withdraw Ukrainian armed forces units to a distance that would make it impossible to fire on populated areas using artillery and all types of multiple launch rocket systems.

3. Allow for full and objective international monitoring of compliance with the ceasefire and monitoring of the situation in the safe zone created by the ceasefire.

4. Exclude all use of military aircraft against civilians and populated areas in the conflict zone.

5. Organise the exchange of individuals detained by force on an ‘all for all’ basis without any preconditions.

6. Open humanitarian corridors for refugees and for delivering humanitarian cargoes to towns and populated areas in Donbass – Donetsk and Lugansk regions.

7. Make it possible for repair brigades to come to damaged settlements in the Donbass region in order to repair and rebuild social facilities and life-supporting infrastructure and help the region to prepare for the winter.

So, if Petro Poroshenko agrees to follow Putin’s plan for peace, does that then mean the Russian military forces eeh… excuse me… I meant to say the Russian “voluntaries” currently operating in eastern Ukraine. Will they return back to Russia, if Putin’s peace plan is accepted? Probably not.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 10:58:33


Post by: Wyrmalla


Those terms seem to be placing a load of blame on the Kiev government, yet not much on the "rebels". I mean all the points about targeting civilians are clear digs at Kiev, but I'm not seeing anything like "remove all foreign troops from Ukrainian soil" (Crimea's still owned by the Ukrainians according to the international community). That list is nothing but a propaganda piece to pander to Putin's supporters, as look, he's laying out such simple peaceful terms and he really only cares about rebuilding the region right? Just another case of Moscow doing their best to aggravate the situation. =P

So fat chance anyone will take this seriously, leading to Putin gaining more support at home. Like hell the Russians will be withdrawing troops from the area for a good while (look at the other countries they've screwed over in the past few decades that still have soldiers stationed in or near them). Given that the Russians don't seem to quite have a grasp over what territory's theirs and what belongs to others (hey it all used to be the USSR, so that means the Federation owns it all now too right?), Russian troops will be on "holiday" or "exercises" in the area for a good while to come.

Still, nice to see all that new gear being used by the rebels. I mean from a wargaming perspective. Given that the "rebels" are using equipment which the Russians don't export, it gives us so many opportunities for all those shiny new toys to turn up elsewhere. I mean if some farmers with mysteriously Muscovite accents can manage to get a hold of all those guns which nobody can buy that means we'll be seeing some of them turning up in Afghanistan some time soon for Skirmish Sangin.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 11:06:08


Post by: angelofvengeance


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
Lets see.
According to der spiegel the german airforce is well under funded.
We sold the harriers, and some mrca"s
The challenger II's are in mothballs. and the crews released from service.
we have no planes for the aircraft carriers we've got. (thanks to the f35)
We are well prepared.


We have no aircraft carriers at all at the moment, never mind the planes to launch from them


Are you forgetting the Queen Elizabeth??
Left dry dock in July. Plus we have F-35's and some Typhoons to play with currently.
Fleetwise, the UK has x2 Astute class submarines, x4 Trafalgar class submarines, x4 Vanguard class submarines, x6 Daring class Destroyers,x12 Duke class Frigates and Queen Elizabeth Aircraft carrier.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 12:05:37


Post by: Ketara


 angelofvengeance wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
Lets see.
According to der spiegel the german airforce is well under funded.
We sold the harriers, and some mrca"s
The challenger II's are in mothballs. and the crews released from service.
we have no planes for the aircraft carriers we've got. (thanks to the f35)
We are well prepared.


We have no aircraft carriers at all at the moment, never mind the planes to launch from them


Are you forgetting the Queen Elizabeth??
Left dry dock in July. Plus we have F-35's and some Typhoons to play with currently.
Fleetwise, the UK has x2 Astute class submarines, x4 Trafalgar class submarines, x4 Vanguard class submarines, x6 Daring class Destroyers,x12 Duke class Frigates and Queen Elizabeth Aircraft carrier.


The Illustrious was actually only taken off the books officially about a week or two ago. She could be reactivated in short order. The Ocean is also capable of carrying a few fighters with VTOL capability in a bind.

Having said that, I wouldn't want to put Elizabeth anywhere near the field for at least another eight months. They need to test all her systems, break her in and work out all the kinks before she'll be battle-ready.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 12:46:36


Post by: Experiment 626


As a Canadian, what NATO does in eastern Europe is worrying as it'll eventually end up likely showing Putin what he can get away with when he inevitably turns his gaze towards invading our northern territory for their natural resources.

We may be better in a fight, but we're too tiny to stand up against a full on invasion, not to mention the ecological damage conflict in the north would cause. Without full NATO backing, we can easily kiss the entire polar ecosystem good-bye if Russia is allowed to go in and exploit it as they see fit.
Not to mention the small fact that the north belongs to Canada.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 13:11:57


Post by: Dreadclaw69


 Redcruisair wrote:
Here’s some interesting info about Putin's plans for ending the fighting in Ukraine.

http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/22899

Spoiler:

Vladimir Putin outlined the plan while speaking with journalists at the end of his working visit to Mongolia.

In order to stop the bloodshed and stabilise the situation in southeast Ukraine, I believe that the parties to the conflict should immediately agree on and coordinate the following steps:

1. End active offensive operations by armed forces, armed units and militia groups in southeast Ukraine in the Donetsk and Lugansk areas.

2. Withdraw Ukrainian armed forces units to a distance that would make it impossible to fire on populated areas using artillery and all types of multiple launch rocket systems.

3. Allow for full and objective international monitoring of compliance with the ceasefire and monitoring of the situation in the safe zone created by the ceasefire.

4. Exclude all use of military aircraft against civilians and populated areas in the conflict zone.

5. Organise the exchange of individuals detained by force on an ‘all for all’ basis without any preconditions.

6. Open humanitarian corridors for refugees and for delivering humanitarian cargoes to towns and populated areas in Donbass – Donetsk and Lugansk regions.

7. Make it possible for repair brigades to come to damaged settlements in the Donbass region in order to repair and rebuild social facilities and life-supporting infrastructure and help the region to prepare for the winter.

So, if Petro Poroshenko agrees to follow Putin’s plan for peace, does that then mean the Russian military forces eeh… excuse me… I meant to say the Russian “voluntaries” currently operating in eastern Ukraine. Will they return back to Russia, if Putin’s peace plan is accepted? Probably not.

To Putin they are the objective international monitors he spoke of


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 15:24:09


Post by: Redcruisair


 Iron_Captain wrote:
the Soviets only suffered relatively light casualties.

Light casualties? No. just, no.

The Soviet lost around 28,000 troops, 53,753 were wounded and 415,932 became critically sick. These are not light numbers.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Those 1,551,038 men are divided over many small national armies with only a limited amount of cooperation. And judging from the difficulty the EU has with even setting up small military missions, most of those are far from battle-ready.

This is all nonsense. Do you even have a source for this?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Meanwhile, Russia has about a 100.000 in mechanised and armoured divisions that only need a single command to get rolling. They will have covered a huge amount of territory before Europe will be able to put up an effective resistance.

I am beginning to think that, at this point, you’re just throwing words around without any validity to them.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
And American soldiers are not that great of a help when they are an ocean away. It will take a lot of time before they will arrive.

American troops are stationed several places around Europe, notably Germany.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Should Russia attack NATO, it is likely China will take its chance as well and invade US allies in the Far East.

It's not within China’s interest to start a war against the US. China has invested millions of credits in the US and other western countries. Besides, China and Russia aren’t best buddies for life. Are the Chinese really going throw away all they have accomplished for the sake of a suicidal Russian president’s illegal war? I personally doubt it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is only logical. Look at large-scale convential wars of the past. Weapons have only gotten deadlier since then. It is actually a pretty conservative estimate.

I don’t trust your sense of “logic”. So far, you’ve have said many fanciful things in this thread. Please excuse me for remaining ever wary of your claims.

Besides, the Russians are far more likely to be the ones suffering the most casualties, since they have to operate in lands unfamiliar and hostile to them and their opponents are dug in and only need to hold out for reinforcements, while the Russians must work against the clock.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
But many others do, and I am sure most of them would put the safety of their children over Estonia.

You can’t make that claim. You don’t know what other people feel and think about such things.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I think most Europeans disagree with you. At least, almost all Europeans I know, and I know a lot of

You know a lot of them? Like, all 700 million of them? I take it you don’t.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Why are you willing to die in a war you don't want?

Why are you so willing to throw the Baltics to the wolves? Do you not have any compassion for other people? Or are you just fine with seeing humans of other nationalities suffer, just as long it isn’t your glories motherland that is being threatened?

I don’t want war, nor do I want to die. But I do want the Estonians and the other Baltics to live their lives peacefully. They deserve it after what they have been through under the forced communist rule. Besides, I couldn’t give damn about the Kremlin’s falls sense of entitlement. Not matter what Putin might think, Eastern Europe is not his to dominate.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
If I may ask a question to you: Why should Europe support a fellow NATO country?

Because NATO is a collective defense system. All NATO members are allies with each other, and as such, a declaration of war against one NATO member means war with all other members of NATO.

This link should help you out with your understanding of what NATO is about.
http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html

 Iron_Captain wrote:
NATO has become a threat to world peace now that it is no longer kept in balance by the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact.

Cold War isn’t exactly what I would define as peaceful.
Europe has never been more peaceful since the disbanding of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact. The only threat to Europe’s peace other than terrorism is the Kremlin’s hysteric paranoia of being encircled.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 15:34:21


Post by: Sigvatr


 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

To Putin they are the objective international monitors he spoke of


I don't think Putin can even spell "objective"


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 15:45:38


Post by: squidhills


 Sigvatr wrote:
 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

To Putin they are the objective international monitors he spoke of


I don't think Putin can even spell "objective"


Sure he can. He just spells it "R-U-S-S-I-A-N"


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 16:40:57


Post by: Sigvatr


squidhills wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

To Putin they are the objective international monitors he spoke of


I don't think Putin can even spell "objective"


Sure he can. He just spells it "R-U-S-S-I-A-N"


F-R-E-E-D....F-R-....F-R-E-E-D-O....by Ivan, goddamn it! RUSSIA!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 16:44:08


Post by: elotar


Putin will not invade europe with tank divisions. All baltic states got russian minority witch can be exploited the same way as in Ukrane. Then he will(already is) take control of corrupt or just crasy politicians, crime groups and infrastructure corporations and one day you just wake up in his grasp.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 16:51:49


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 angelofvengeance wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
Lets see.
According to der spiegel the german airforce is well under funded.
We sold the harriers, and some mrca"s
The challenger II's are in mothballs. and the crews released from service.
we have no planes for the aircraft carriers we've got. (thanks to the f35)
We are well prepared.


We have no aircraft carriers at all at the moment, never mind the planes to launch from them


Are you forgetting the Queen Elizabeth??
Left dry dock in July. Plus we have F-35's and some Typhoons to play with currently.
Fleetwise, the UK has x2 Astute class submarines, x4 Trafalgar class submarines, x4 Vanguard class submarines, x6 Daring class Destroyers,x12 Duke class Frigates and Queen Elizabeth Aircraft carrier.


The Queen Elizabeth is not operations worthy. It isn't due for operational capability until 2020.

So about all it can do at the moment is float. It still hasn't had all of the fittings installed, has no crew, nobody in the royal navy has any experience on an aircraft carrier that big.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 17:49:23


Post by: Soladrin


elotar wrote:
Putin will not invade europe with tank divisions. All baltic states got russian minority witch can be exploited the same way as in Ukrane. Then he will(already is) take control of corrupt or just crasy politicians, crime groups and infrastructure corporations and one day you just wake up in his grasp.


So, none of the baltic has European support now?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 19:27:29


Post by: whembly




Who do you have?

--------------------------Russia – USA--------------------------

1. Total Population: 142,517,670 – 313,847,465
2. Manpower available: 69,117,271 – 142,212,012
3. Military reserve: 20,035,000 – 1,458,000
4. Total aircraft strength: 4,500 – 15,2936
5. Navy ship strength: 224 – 2907
6. Submarines: 58 – 71
7. Total aircraft strength: 4,500 – 15,293.
8. Total helicopter strength: 1,635 – 6,665

...ish.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 19:29:38


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Whem', do you mean 2 mil instead of 20 mil?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 19:39:02


Post by: Jihadin


Putin winning Hands down and he only had one movie.....Obama up to what? movie VII?...why does this sound familiar....


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 19:40:07


Post by: whembly


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Whem', do you mean 2 mil instead of 20 mil?

Maybe... *squints* The sources (CIA, wiki, etc...) are all over the map.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 20:11:05


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 whembly wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Whem', do you mean 2 mil instead of 20 mil?

Maybe... *squints* The sources (CIA, wiki, etc...) are all over the map.

I was just thinking that 20mil seemed a bit big.

Edit: wiki says 2,035,000 reserve, 766,000 active.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 20:23:58


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ketara wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

True. But the world has changed since then, as has the average Briton's opinion of war. And Britain is one of the more hawkish, warlike nations in Europe. I can't really imagine Germany or the Netherlands doing the same.


To reiterate the previous quote:

England has no eternal friendships and no eternal enemies, only eternal interests.


Our interests would demand that we answered an invasion of the Baltics with as much force as we could muster.
And does this quote by a long dead British politician reflect the attitude towards war of the modern British people? Is waging a war in the Baltics in their interests? Or only in the interests of the British government? Will the British people allow their government to wage a war against Russia for the Baltics, thereby endangering Britain itself?

 Ketara wrote:
I daresay Russia could occupy them easily enough, but it wouldn't hold them long. There's be five US carrier fleets parked off the coast within about a fortnight, along with a dozen odd British regiments and warships. We retain enough of our amphibious assault capabilities between us to re-enact D-day Mark 2 if we have to. That's assuming Russia launched a surprise assault.
Carrier fleets are not that fast. And I doubt a D-day style operation would still be a sound decision in the present day. The entire American/British force gathered in one place at the same time... They would be a very tempting target for Russia's nuclear arsenal.
 Ketara wrote:
If Russia built up its forces properly, called up the reservists, lubricated the tanks, etc, and made a general push through Europe, to quote myself, they'd probably get about a third of the way into Germany before they were stopped. But then they'd be pushed back and ground up into pieces from there.
War has too many uncertaint factors to predict the outcome as certainly as that.

 Ketara wrote:
This is why Russia will not mess with NATO. Russia has always historically been sane enough to realise that instigating the largest war since WW2 with itself more or less guaranteed to be on the losing side is not a smart move. Better by far to play the Great Game and bite off pieces of influence and land here and there when the opportunity presents itself. Putin is not the first to play this game, and he won't be the last. Russian leaders have been doing it for as long as Russia has existed.
True. Nobody would gain anything from a war.

 Ketara wrote:
But make no mistake about it, regardless of how some of the media portray him, Putin's no Metternich, Bismarck or Disraeli. He's also no Alexander the Great or Napoleon. He's neither a genius statesman, nor messianic military genius. He's just a somewhat mediocre ex-KGB statesman playing by a nineteenth century rulebook. He'll gobble up two or three frontier territories at enormous cost, squat in power for as long as he can, and then leave his country worse off than he found it. And then we'll probably play the same game with his successor.
He is more than mediocre. He is easily the greatest statesman of the present day. He came into power in a country that was nothing but a ruined husk of a former superpower on the brink of civil war. He made an end to internal squabbling and crushed the Chechen terrorists. He turned the economy around and gave the Russians a future again. He stopped the oligarchs and the Jeltsin mafia. He reformed the Russian military and turned Russia into a country worthy of respect again. A country that once more incites fear in its neighbours. And that is exactly how Putin and his many supporters would like to see it. Putin's accomplishments in ruling one of the most complicated states in the world certainly are not 'mediocre'. And he certainly has shown a better grasp of realpolitik than other present-day world leaders.
While Russia under Putin still faces many problems *cough*corruption*cough*, progress has been steady, and I am very certain Putin will leave Russia better than when he found it, if only for the reason that leaving it worse wouldn't really be possible.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 20:30:12


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Carrier fleets are not that fast. And I doubt a D-day style operation would still be a sound decision in the present day. The entire American/British force gathered in one place at the same time... They would be a very tempting target for Russia's nuclear arsenal.

You do realise that if we are talking about nuclear war there really is no point in sending any troops.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 20:37:15


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Iron_Captain wrote:
. A country that once more incites fear in its neighbours. And that is exactly how Putin and his many supporters would like to see it.


A great statesman does not rule through fear.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 20:50:43


Post by: squidhills


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Carrier fleets are not that fast. And I doubt a D-day style operation would still be a sound decision in the present day. The entire American/British force gathered in one place at the same time... They would be a very tempting target for Russia's nuclear arsenal.


Do you really think Putin would launch a nuclear attack on US troops massing in the Baltics? Do you really have that low of an opinion of him that you think he would willingly end all life on Earth for a few hundred square kilometers of Baltic soil? Because, you may not realize this, but the US has nuclear weapons, too. You might say we invented them.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
He stopped the oligarchs and the Jeltsin mafia.


He did not in any way stop the oligarchs. He imprisoned any dissidents he could find and called them oligarchs, but any oligarch who was willing to pay him the right bribes got to stay right where they are.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 21:09:15


Post by: MrDwhitey


squidhills wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Carrier fleets are not that fast. And I doubt a D-day style operation would still be a sound decision in the present day. The entire American/British force gathered in one place at the same time... They would be a very tempting target for Russia's nuclear arsenal.


Do you really think Putin would launch a nuclear attack on US troops massing in the Baltics? Do you really have that low of an opinion of him that you think he would willingly end all life on Earth for a few hundred square kilometers of Baltic soil? Because, you may not realize this, but the US has nuclear weapons, too. You might say we invented them.


To be fair that idea of nuking is one of the most slowed things I've read in this thread so far.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 21:23:20


Post by: whembly


 MrDwhitey wrote:
squidhills wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Carrier fleets are not that fast. And I doubt a D-day style operation would still be a sound decision in the present day. The entire American/British force gathered in one place at the same time... They would be a very tempting target for Russia's nuclear arsenal.


Do you really think Putin would launch a nuclear attack on US troops massing in the Baltics? Do you really have that low of an opinion of him that you think he would willingly end all life on Earth for a few hundred square kilometers of Baltic soil? Because, you may not realize this, but the US has nuclear weapons, too. You might say we invented them.


To be fair that idea of nuking is one of the most slowed things I've read in this thread so far.

Yeah... ain't happening.

However, the patently feared Military Industrial Complex® may start revving it's engine again.

A rematch to the coldwar between The West vs The USSR (ahem, I meant Russia).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 21:32:18


Post by: DarkTraveler777


 whembly wrote:


A rematch to the coldwar between The West vs The USSR (ahem, I meant Russia).


And the only winner will be China as the US and Russia spend themselves into oblivion.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 21:37:39


Post by: Jihadin


Imagine the left would scream the end of the world if the US rebuilt back to the 10 division/two theater concept after Obama leave office


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 21:38:10


Post by: whembly


 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 whembly wrote:


A rematch to the coldwar between The West vs The USSR (ahem, I meant Russia).


And the only winner will be China as the US and Russia spend themselves into oblivion.

Nah... China will be loaning the US to keep the gravy train flowing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jihadin wrote:
Imagine the left would scream the end of the world if the US rebuilt back to the 10 division/two theater concept after Obama leave office

Might not need 10 divisions... but, we probably do need to go back to the "two theater" concept.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 21:40:37


Post by: Frazzled


 MrDwhitey wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Sept. 11, 2001. Should have hit them with 5,000 megatons on the same day.


The amusing thing is, that line of thinking makes you as bad as them.

Of course you'll deny it, but there it is.

You seem tohave confused me with someone who gives a damn. After all, its US policy when we are attacked by WMDs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 mitch_rifle wrote:
NATO exist's to stop the europeans from attacking each other. They like to do that as history has amply demonstrated.





I started reading the wiki on the 30 years war. I just had to stop.
On a pro rata % of population wiped out basis, it makes WWII look like a minor tiff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
elotar wrote:
Putin will not invade europe with tank divisions. All baltic states got russian minority witch can be exploited the same way as in Ukrane. Then he will(already is) take control of corrupt or just crasy politicians, crime groups and infrastructure corporations and one day you just wake up in his grasp.


That is a definite scenario. There are ways to deal with that, if NATO has the will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Carrier fleets are not that fast. And I doubt a D-day style operation would still be a sound decision in the present day. The entire American/British force gathered in one place at the same time... They would be a very tempting target for Russia's nuclear arsenal.

You do realise that if we are talking about nuclear war there really is no point in sending any troops.


Exactly. American reinforcements are just a 10 second countdown away.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 21:53:55


Post by: Iron_Captain


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
. A country that once more incites fear in its neighbours. And that is exactly how Putin and his many supporters would like to see it.


A great statesman does not rule through fear.
Russian rulers have always ruled through fear.

squidhills wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Carrier fleets are not that fast. And I doubt a D-day style operation would still be a sound decision in the present day. The entire American/British force gathered in one place at the same time... They would be a very tempting target for Russia's nuclear arsenal.


Do you really think Putin would launch a nuclear attack on US troops massing in the Baltics? Do you really have that low of an opinion of him that you think he would willingly end all life on Earth for a few hundred square kilometers of Baltic soil? Because, you may not realize this, but the US has nuclear weapons, too. You might say we invented them.
If it is open warfare and the US is invading the Russian-held Baltics? I think nuclear weapons would be a serious consideration. And I don't think it would end all life on Earth. Firing a few tactical nukes at concentrations of enemy troops is quite a few steps below nuking enemy cities in mutual assured destruction and a display of tragic stupidity.

squidhills wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
He stopped the oligarchs and the Jeltsin mafia.


He did not in any way stop the oligarchs. He imprisoned any dissidents he could find and called them oligarchs, but any oligarch who was willing to pay him the right bribes got to stay right where they are.
Putin did put an end to the excesses of the Jeltsin era and also broke the political power of the oligarchs. Most of the oligarchs that refused support Putin have met their end in tragic "accident"...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 22:02:23


Post by: Jihadin


Off topic




On Topic

Ukraine Army recruiting?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 22:10:39


Post by: Frazzled


 Jihadin wrote:
Off topic




On Topic

Ukraine Army recruiting?


Now thats entertainment! I suddenly understand Putin's interest in Ukraine's...natural resources.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 22:21:14


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
. A country that once more incites fear in its neighbours. And that is exactly how Putin and his many supporters would like to see it.


A great statesman does not rule through fear.
Russian rulers have always ruled through fear.


Hence why none of them have ever been considered great

I mean come on Brezhnev? He stagnated the russian economy whilst he gave himself every medal under the sun and tried to make his own cult of personality


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 22:39:38


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
the Soviets only suffered relatively light casualties.

Light casualties? No. just, no.

The Soviet lost around 28,000 troops, 53,753 were wounded and 415,932 became critically sick. These are not light numbers.
28.000? Most sources list 14.000-15.000. Either way they are relatively light casualties.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Those 1,551,038 men are divided over many small national armies with only a limited amount of cooperation. And judging from the difficulty the EU has with even setting up small military missions, most of those are far from battle-ready.

This is all nonsense. Do you even have a source for this?
Just read the Dutch news EU politicians tend to have to talk endlessly before making decisions, and even if they do, the military is so undermanned and lacking in funds it takes them a long time to get stuff done.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Meanwhile, Russia has about a 100.000 in mechanised and armoured divisions that only need a single command to get rolling. They will have covered a huge amount of territory before Europe will be able to put up an effective resistance.

I am beginning to think that, at this point, you’re just throwing words around without any validity to them.
BLITZKRIEG!!! Also, I like tanks.
The numbers is just stuff I found on the news. You can find it if you google around somewhat.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
And American soldiers are not that great of a help when they are an ocean away. It will take a lot of time before they will arrive.

American troops are stationed several places around Europe, notably Germany.
Indeed they are. Such a huge army. I am sure the Russians find those few Americans stationed in Germany very threatening.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Should Russia attack NATO, it is likely China will take its chance as well and invade US allies in the Far East.

It's not within China’s interest to start a war against the US. China has invested millions of credits in the US and other western countries. Besides, China and Russia aren’t best buddies for life. Are the Chinese really going throw away all they have accomplished for the sake of a suicidal Russian president’s illegal war? I personally doubt it.
They will make it their own war. There is no love lost between the Chinese and the Americans and their allies in the Far East, and winning said war would mean China gets rid of the hated US influence in the region while establishing itself firmly as the #1 regional and world superpower. China could gain a lot in such a war. Much more than it could ever gain from investments in the US. The Chinese have been pursueing a policy of confrontation for some years now, while strenghtening (military) ties with Russia. China and the Soviet Union were at odds. China and the Russian Federation like each other very, very much. There was a large joint Chinese-Russian military drill only a few weeks ago.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is only logical. Look at large-scale convential wars of the past. Weapons have only gotten deadlier since then. It is actually a pretty conservative estimate.

I don’t trust your sense of “logic”. So far, you’ve have said many fanciful things in this thread. Please excuse me for remaining ever wary of your claims.

Besides, the Russians are far more likely to be the ones suffering the most casualties, since they have to operate in lands unfamiliar and hostile to them and their opponents are dug in and only need to hold out for reinforcements, while the Russians must work against the clock.
That means we can shake hands.

The Russians will have the advantage of speed and superior local force. They could strike before their opponents are dug in. My guess is that they could reach at least Berlin before being pushed back. The war will then likely come to a stalemate at some point, with Russia losing out in the end because its economy is so much weaker.
In any case, making predictions about war is not all that useful, as war depends on so many uncertain factors. And in this case it is even more useless because there won't be war.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
But many others do, and I am sure most of them would put the safety of their children over Estonia.

You can’t make that claim. You don’t know what other people feel and think about such things.
Use common sense.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
I think most Europeans disagree with you. At least, almost all Europeans I know, and I know a lot of

You know a lot of them? Like, all 700 million of them? I take it you don’t.
Where did I claim so?

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Why are you willing to die in a war you don't want?

Why are you so willing to throw the Baltics to the wolves? Do you not have any compassion for other people? Or are you just fine with seeing humans of other nationalities suffer, just as long it isn’t your glories motherland that is being threatened?

I don’t want war, nor do I want to die. But I do want the Estonians and the other Baltics to live their lives peacefully. They deserve it after what they have been through under the forced communist rule. Besides, I couldn’t give damn about the Kremlin’s falls sense of entitlement. Not matter what Putin might think, Eastern Europe is not his to dominate.
You misspelled 'Glorious Motherland' (and both must be capitalised for the Glory of the Motherland is great ) You will now be sentenced to 20 years of forced labour in the coal mines of Vorkuta.

I too want the people of the Baltics (and all others) to live their lives peacefully, but I take an utilitarian view here. Starting a war over it will only lead to even less people being able to live peaceful lives. Besides that, I am just not willing to sacrifice my live for a far-away people I don't know.

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
If I may ask a question to you: Why should Europe support a fellow NATO country?

Because NATO is a collective defense system. All NATO members are allies with each other, and as such, a declaration of war against one NATO member means war with all other members of NATO.

This link should help you out with your understanding of what NATO is about.
http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html
I know what NATO is. I just think it is stupid. NATO has the potential of escalating a minor regional conflict into World War 3 and is therefore a threat to world peace. It will be WW1 all over again thanks to NATO. Who wants a World War again?

 Redcruisair wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
NATO has become a threat to world peace now that it is no longer kept in balance by the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact.

Cold War isn’t exactly what I would define as peaceful.
Europe has never been more peaceful since the disbanding of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact. The only threat to Europe’s peace other than terrorism is the Kremlin’s hysteric paranoia of being encircled.

I've heard the Balkan Wars were very peaceful indeed. The great massacres and genocides there were nothing compared to all the scary language and military show-offs during the Cold War in Europe.
And if the NATO wasn't so actively trying to encircle Russia, the Kremlin would not need to be hysteric about it.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
. A country that once more incites fear in its neighbours. And that is exactly how Putin and his many supporters would like to see it.


A great statesman does not rule through fear.
Russian rulers have always ruled through fear.


Hence why none of them have ever been considered great

I mean come on Brezhnev? He stagnated the russian economy whilst he gave himself every medal under the sun and tried to make his own cult of personality
Russia has had plenty of great statesmen (some were even so great they got it added to their name ) but Brezhnev surely wasn't one of them. The only reason Brezhnev was great is because of all the jokes about him. They are great.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 22:45:15


Post by: MrDwhitey


 Frazzled wrote:
 MrDwhitey wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Sept. 11, 2001. Should have hit them with 5,000 megatons on the same day.


The amusing thing is, that line of thinking makes you as bad as them.

Of course you'll deny it, but there it is.

You seem tohave confused me with someone who gives a damn. After all, its US policy when we are attacked by WMDs.


It's a different way to go and it did make me laugh out loud at you so, cool.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 23:12:10


Post by: Frazzled


The Russians will have the advantage of speed and superior local force. They could strike before their opponents are dug in.


Hard to do that when you're radioactive ash. Again I cite NATO policy. Tactical nukes...away!

Then your guys strike back

Then we raise the game

then everybody dies!

"The only way to win is to not play the game."


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/04 23:18:32


Post by: Jihadin


 Frazzled wrote:
The Russians will have the advantage of speed and superior local force. They could strike before their opponents are dug in.


Hard to do that when you're radioactive ash. Again I cite NATO policy. Tactical nukes...away!

Then your guys strike back

Then we raise the game

then everybody dies!

"The only way to win is to not play the game."


Let the missiles fly





Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/05 00:47:24


Post by: Grey Templar


The Chinese wouldn't start a war with the US because they dearly love owning our debt. A war would mean all that debt goes away.

Plus the Chinese economy would fall apart if they lost all their customers(they've got a big bubble)

Its why they're desperate to build a domestic market for their goods in case things go sour for them in the global one.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/05 00:57:58


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Yeah, it is not in Chinas interest at all to start a war with the western world.

They don't care whether Russia wants some little countries in Europe, they have to keep their economy going and without sales to Europe and North America....


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/05 01:19:19


Post by: Frazzled


Oh man Missile Command. Thats my second favorite video game.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/05 04:33:15


Post by: Bromsy


The US servicemen in Europe might not be able to stop Russia if they committed to a large scale invasion. But god help the Russians if they killed those servicemen. Everyone derides the US as weak and disunified, but everyone sane - hopefully including Putin - realizes we are one great tragedy away from flipping into straight up Vengeance Death mode. If the US ever fully pulled out the stops and got really mad - screw everything else, we need to end you mad - well, I wouldn't want to be on the other side. The whole sleeping giant quote, but even worse nowadays.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/05 09:01:05


Post by: Ketara


 Iron_Captain wrote:

And does this quote by a long dead British politician reflect the attitude towards war of the modern British people? Is waging a war in the Baltics in their interests? Or only in the interests of the British government? Will the British people allow their government to wage a war against Russia for the Baltics, thereby endangering Britain itself?


The full context of the quote goes on to list what those interests are, and all are based upon potential existential threats to Britain. One of them is simple, that no hostile power should ever be permitted to hold the opposite shore of the Channel. The second, the idea that no other power should be permitted to have a Navy greater than Britain, is somewhat outdated now thanks to the US. The idea behind that one is that no potential enemy/ally should ever have the power to invade Britain or cut off her valuable trade arteries.

The final one, and the one applicable in this question, is that no nation should ever be allowed to possess the balance of power in Europe. A country like that could easily overwhelm/outbuild/outspend the Royal Navy, no matter our shipbuilding or military expertise. It's a question of direct existential threat. A Russia which absorbs the Baltics with no opposition would shortly be reabsorbing Belarus and Kazakhstan. And would then probably head into Poland.

If the assumption here is that NATO falls apart, and the treaties do not hold, there is no single power in Europe capable of standing against Russia currently bar ourselves. And that's solely because we have one fecking big moat without a drawbridge.

Therefore, we must ensure the treaties hold, and that Russia does not become the dominant power, through whatever coalition we must forge. There's a reason we used to flip enemies/allies every other decade a century or so ago.

Carrier fleets are not that fast. And I doubt a D-day style operation would still be a sound decision in the present day. The entire American/British force gathered in one place at the same time... They would be a very tempting target for Russia's nuclear arsenal.


Ridiculous. The second Russia wiped out half a million american soldiers with nukes would be the day Russia would point blank cease to exist. The French, Britain, and America would wipe it off the map. Most of the rest of us would cease to exist too, but c'est la vie. If Russia wants to play with toys like that, then the consequences are inevitable.

War has too many uncertaint factors to predict the outcome as certainly as that.


Certainly. But it's a reasonable educated guess from someone with a reasonable amount of military/strategical knowledge. If you disagree I would be interested to hear your own predictions, and any evidence you might have to support them.

He is more than mediocre. He is easily the greatest statesman of the present day.


That's really not saying much even if I agreed with you. Being the greatest statesman in the current day is like being a champion boxer in a ring of triple amputees for the most part. Putin is a mediocre statesman in a sea of bad and equally mediocre statesmen.

Shinzo Abe probably gets a 7.5/10 on the 'Great Statesman' chart, but I'd give Putin a measly 6 on the same scale. About the same level as Obama or John Major. It could be worse though, he could be sitting with Gordon Brown down at the bottom.

He came into power in a country that was nothing but a ruined husk of a former superpower on the brink of civil war. He made an end to internal squabbling and crushed the Chechen terrorists. He turned the economy around and gave the Russians a future again. He stopped the oligarchs and the Jeltsin mafia. He reformed the Russian military and turned Russia into a country worthy of respect again. A country that once more incites fear in its neighbours


I'm not sure dictatorial and murderous tendencies necessarily equal 'Great Statesman'. Perhaps we're working from different textbooks. To me, a real top statesman is politically sharp as a knife and clever as a fox domestically, internationally renowned and respected (if not necessarily liked), capable of advancing their countries interests with a long term strategical vision, and plays a major role on the international stage.

Putin's sly as a weasel, more internationally infamous than renowned, and fixated on the medium-term objectives rather than long term ones. He is respected generally speaking, which gives him points, and he plays a minor role internationally (although looms larger if you live in the Ukraine I suspect). In short, he doesn't fare too badly, but he's no Roosevelt or Bismarck.

And that is exactly how Putin and his many supporters would like to see it. Putin's accomplishments in ruling one of the most complicated states in the world certainly are not 'mediocre'.


Really? I mean, Robert Mugabe 'rules' Zimbabwe through similar tactics. 'Ruling' is not the same as 'leading' or 'directing'. The truly great Statesman does the latter. Putin has an iron fist, sure. But he lacks the velvet glove the truly great possess.

And he certainly has shown a better grasp of realpolitik than other present-day world leaders.


Some of them, certainly. Definitely moreso than Obama, or Hollande. But I'd bet on Merkel against Putin when it comes to subtlety anyday. Putin's at about the same level as Cameron. He's got a solid grasp of the basics, but not much beyond that.

While Russia under Putin still faces many problems *cough*corruption*cough*, progress has been steady, and I am very certain Putin will leave Russia better than when he found it, if only for the reason that leaving it worse wouldn't really be possible.


Debatable. If he ends up misjudging it and leaving it a smoking wreck due to pushing his luck with NATO, I'd consider that 'worse'. Not that I think he'd be stupid enough to push it that far, but it illustrates how such a thing is possible.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Yeah, it is not in Chinas interest at all to start a war with the western world.

They don't care whether Russia wants some little countries in Europe, they have to keep their economy going and without sales to Europe and North America....


China has always played a long term game. It's culturally ingrained, as is the tendency to view China as 'The World', and everything outside it as uncultured barbarians at the gates. China wants local dominance, but quite frankly doesn't care beyond that. So they're content to bide their time and build up slowly in an inscrutable sort of way. They're certainly less worrying that the Russians, historically speaking.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2014/09/05 09:38:42


Post by: loki old fart


 Ketara wrote:

If the assumption here is that NATO falls apart, and the treaties do not hold, there is no single power in Europe capable of standing against Russia currently bar ourselves. And that's solely because we have one fecking big moat without a drawbridge.
.
Except somebody tunneled under the moat

Ridiculous. The second Russia wiped out half a million american soldiers with nukes would be the day Russia would point blank cease to exist. The French, Britain, and America would wipe it off the map. Most of the rest of us would cease to exist too, but c'est la vie. If Russia wants to play with toys like that, then the consequences are inevitable.
So if things turn bad we'll kill ourselves eh?. Thats not Ridiculous at all.


Being the greatest statesman in the current day is like being a champion boxer in a ring of triple amputees for the most part. Putin is a mediocre statesman in a sea of bad and equally mediocre statesmen.
This is so true.


China has always played a long term game. It's culturally ingrained, as is the tendency to view China as 'The World', and everything outside it as uncultured barbarians at the gates. China wants local dominance, but quite frankly doesn't care beyond that. So they're content to bide their time and build up slowly in an inscrutable sort of way. They're certainly less worrying than the Russians, historically speaking.

Because they're on course to own the world. They already own most of it's manufacturing.