Russian "realpolitik" means basing your politics on practicality instead of ideas. Modern Russia elevates that to practically cutting out the idea of politics itself, especially the idea that more than one group should be allowed to take part. In 2011, Parnas, the People's Freedom Party, was denied registration just before the elections. This "freedom party" wasn't a bearded hippie representing his constituency of beard lice, but a serious opposition bloc including a former prime minister and deputy prime minister.
The Russian justice ministry claimed that the new party failed to meet several legal requirements, of which "supporting Vladimir Putin" was presumably the most mandatory. They also pointed out that the party's proposed charter did not provide for a rotation of leadership. They said this in 2011, when Dmitry Medvedev was busily eating rose petals so that his farts would gently scent the presidential chair before he gave it back.
Holy feth Iron captain, you must hate living a the Netherlands where we at least have a modicum of respect for other people and don't refer to certain groups as "fringe elements" that we can hate.
Let me guess, you would vote for Wilders if you were old enough?
For all that's possible the BUK could've been taken from an Ukranian military base earlier.
I would blame Russia if it's proven that the sepratist group did indeed fire that missile, even in mistake.
Just not sure what the international community can do... other than forcing Russia for restitution.
Even if there's no proof that Russia dupplied anything?
Might as well start blaming the US for ISIS and the Taliban, what with the US allegedly supplying them with weapons. Though that is of course another topic entirely.
For all that's possible the BUK could've been taken from an Ukranian military base earlier.
I would blame Russia if it's proven that the sepratist group did indeed fire that missile, even in mistake.
Just not sure what the international community can do... other than forcing Russia for restitution.
so are we going to ask the states for restitution for the proven cases supplying arms to (insert any one of a plethora of places, rebel factions, outright terrorist groups, and so on that the US supplied arms to) who then used those arms for illegitimate purposes?
do we ask the USA to provide restitution for all the UNPROVEN cases as well?
pretty conveinant that russia gets 100% of the blame despite not actually having control of the groups or region, especially when ukraine is ukraines responsability.
For all that's possible the BUK could've been taken from an Ukranian military base earlier.
I would blame Russia if it's proven that the sepratist group did indeed fire that missile, even in mistake.
Just not sure what the international community can do... other than forcing Russia for restitution.
Even if there's no proof that Russia dupplied anything?
I thought it was proven during the Crimean event. (I'm not joking... am I wrong?)
Might as well start blaming the US for ISIS and the Taliban, what with the US allegedly supplying them with weapons. Though that is of course another topic entirely.
pretty conveinant that russia gets 100% of the blame despite not actually having control of the groups or region, especially when ukraine is ukraines responsability.
So if strangers break into your house and give a gun to your child, and the child shoots your wife, is it then your fault because your house is your responsibility?
chaos0xomega wrote: The West didn’t react in time, or with enough resolve, to the initial invasion and partition of Ukraine last spring, and there’s no reason to think our reaction will be any more effective or resolute this time. It would be reassuring to think America and Europe will now fully engage on the problem of Russian aggression, but it’s unlikely.
Well that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
This shouldn't have happened. The US, while not as culpable as Russia, is still to blame for it's embarrassing inaction.
pretty conveinant that russia gets 100% of the blame despite not actually having control of the groups or region, especially when ukraine is ukraines responsability.
So if strangers break into your house and give a gun to your child, and the child shoots your wife, is it then your fault because your house is your responsibility?
nice straw man, OFC its the robbers fault in that situation where the source of the gun is PROVEN.
in the case of russia, it is simply speculated and alledged that they have supplied anti air missile platforms, and every legit western source simply makes that allegation, and you run with it like its a proven fact when it simply is not.
at this point the "stranger in the house" could be kiev, could be russia, could be some other party as well, the ukraine hasnt exactly kept good tabs on their own people/equiptment, and has been proven to have MUKs in the area (PROVEN, not alleged), though its not proven they used them.
chaos0xomega wrote: The West didn’t react in time, or with enough resolve, to the initial invasion and partition of Ukraine last spring, and there’s no reason to think our reaction will be any more effective or resolute this time. It would be reassuring to think America and Europe will now fully engage on the problem of Russian aggression, but it’s unlikely.
Well that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
This shouldn't have happened. The US, while not as culpable as Russia, is still to blame for it's embarrassing inaction.
I'd say the blame should weigh much heavier on the EU.
Wyrmalla wrote:Yeah, but again I think the Russian government are a bunch of baby eating gakheads, so its easier for me to put up with the lies of the pro-western Kiev government.
Finally someone who admits being biased. I like you.
MrDwhitey wrote:Well Iron, you just went straight back to pathetic shill.
ffs grow up. It's so fething tiring. Even when trying to be "reasonable" you have to put the fething boot into the Ukraine. I'm done responding in any sense. Feel free to dismiss with a joke picture or w/e.
It is my patriotic duty as a son of Mother Russia
MrDwhitey wrote:You know when you apologise then try to make an excuse/justify/say someone else is as bad? Then it's not an apology.
And that justification of the repression of "fringe groups". Holy fething gak that is genuinely disgusting.
It is neither an apology nor a justification, merely an explanation.
A Town Called Malus wrote:That a lot of people support something terrible does not make it good.
People (and they are people, not "fringe groups") being assaulted in the street because of their sexual preference is disgusting and there is no excuse that any decent human being can give to justify it.
I fully agree with you. Plenty of other Russians would too. But there is also a large, very vocal group that would just shout: "Homosexuality is a US plot to bring down Great Russia!" or something like that.
Soladrin wrote: Holy feth Iron captain, you must hate living a the Netherlands where we at least have a modicum of respect for other people and don't refer to certain groups as "fringe elements" that we can hate.
Let me guess, you would vote for Wilders if you were old enough?
Nyet, I am a proud socialist, coming from a proud line of communists ever since my ancestors betrayed the Tsar and the White Army. I am in fact a member of the youth movement of the Socialist Party, and SP is what I would vote. I would also like to point out that fringe elements of society are also being repressed in the Netherlands: fascists, racists, homophobes, pedophiles and I am sure there are more groups to think of. I would say that at least in some cases it is desirable to repress certain groups of society. That doesn't mean I agree with what happens in Russia though.
Russian "realpolitik" means basing your politics on practicality instead of ideas. Modern Russia elevates that to practically cutting out the idea of politics itself, especially the idea that more than one group should be allowed to take part. In 2011, Parnas, the People's Freedom Party, was denied registration just before the elections. This "freedom party" wasn't a bearded hippie representing his constituency of beard lice, but a serious opposition bloc including a former prime minister and deputy prime minister.
The Russian justice ministry claimed that the new party failed to meet several legal requirements, of which "supporting Vladimir Putin" was presumably the most mandatory. They also pointed out that the party's proposed charter did not provide for a rotation of leadership. They said this in 2011, when Dmitry Medvedev was busily eating rose petals so that his farts would gently scent the presidential chair before he gave it back.
Serious opposition blocks do not exist in Russia. Count on Putin to keep it that way. That is the way the KGB rolls, they make sure they stay in absolute control of everything from a distance. If there is an opposition party, Putin is either in control or it is made sure that the opposition will never get a chance to grow and become a threat.
chaos0xomega wrote: The West didn’t react in time, or with enough resolve, to the initial invasion and partition of Ukraine last spring, and there’s no reason to think our reaction will be any more effective or resolute this time. It would be reassuring to think America and Europe will now fully engage on the problem of Russian aggression, but it’s unlikely.
Well that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
This shouldn't have happened. The US, while not as culpable as Russia, is still to blame for it's embarrassing inaction.
Err, I think I'm being misquoted? I never said that...
chaos0xomega wrote: The West didn’t react in time, or with enough resolve, to the initial invasion and partition of Ukraine last spring, and there’s no reason to think our reaction will be any more effective or resolute this time. It would be reassuring to think America and Europe will now fully engage on the problem of Russian aggression, but it’s unlikely.
Well that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
This shouldn't have happened. The US, while not as culpable as Russia, is still to blame for it's embarrassing inaction.
I'd say the blame should weigh much heavier on the EU.
Really? How so? Just interested in this track of though, I'm not trying to single you out.
2 Overlooked Clues Russians Or Proxies Shot Down Malaysian Jetliner
[UPDATED 2:10 pm with comment from President Obama & Pentagon spokesman Kirby] Western media are hardly going easy on Russia. But in all the often-excellent coverage I’ve read so far of the Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 disaster – which claimed 295 lives – no one* is pointing out two basic facts that point towards Russia and its separatist proxies:
1) MH17 was flying eastwards.
2) The Russian-backed rebels don’t have an air force.
Both these factors make it extremely unlikely Ukrainian government forces shot down the airliner. It’s not that Ukrainian troops are incapable of such a horrific mistake: They accidentally shot down a Russian jetliner during a military exercise in 2001, killing 78 people, and frankly the Ukrainian military’s skills have only degenerated since. Even the well-trained US Navy shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988, killing 290, because, amidst high tensions in the Gulf, the USS Vincennes mistook the approaching airliner for an attack plane.
But context matters. First, from a Ukrainian perspective, MH17 was flying from friendly, government-controlled territory towards rebel-held territory and Russia. That outbound vector would make it much harder for an anxious, trigger-happy Ukrainian air defense officer to mistake it for an incoming attack. From the perspective of a separatist or Russian gunner, however, MH17 was inbound from enemy territory.
Second, Ukrainian air defenses haven’t been shooting at anything so far this war because they haven’t had anything to shoot at. Russia has given the separatists weaponry, even rocket launchers and main battle tanks, but the rebels still don’t have aircraft. Russia itself does, of course, and Kiev claims a Russian aircraft shot down a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter Wednesday, so Ukrainian air defense units probably are now watching the skies more nervously than before (although, again, they would be watching for aircraft flying westwards).
But Russian-backed separatists have an actual track record of shooting down Ukrainian government aircraft, including a large-bodied AN-26 transport. A Ukrainian military AN-26 doesn’t look particularly like a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777: It’s much smaller, with straight wings and propellers, in contrast to the larger, swept-wing jet. But the two look much more like each other than either looks like, say, a fighter plane, especially on radar where details of shape would be obscured. And, notoriously, a separatist commander (and suspected Russian operative) known as Col. Igor Strelkov tweeted a claim the rebels had shot down an AN-26 just after MH17 crashed – a post later deleted.
If rebel forces did fire the fatal missile, however, their regular shoulder-launched weapons couldn’t have reached the high-altitude airliner: They would have had to use a more sophisticated anti-aircraft system such as the Russian-made Buk (in English, “Beech”; NATO codenames “SA-11 Gadfly” and “SA-17 Grizzly” depending on the variant). AP reporters have seen a Buk in rebel hands, and the rebels themselves claimed to have captured one from Ukrainian government forces. With ex-Soviet, ex-Ukrainian, and ex-Russian military personnel in their ranks, it’s quite possible they had enough former air defense troops to get the Buk working – although they would not have had a supporting infrastructure of command, control, and sensor networks to help them distinguish hostile from friendly aircraft.
It is also possible that Russian operatives sent by Moscow were working the advanced equipment on the rebels’ behalf. I personally think it unlikely (not impossible) that the highly centralized Russian military would have opened fire by accident – but personnel loaned to the Ukrainian separatists would be operating outside the usual safeguards.
[UPDATE: At a press conference this afternoon, the Pentagon's top spokesman, Rear Adm. John Kirby, demurred on most questions about the tragedy, citing the ongoing investigation, but he did make some blunt statements.
"The SA-11 [missile], the one we believe was used to down Flight 17, is a sophisticated piece of technology,” Kirby said. “It strains credulity to think it could be used by separatists without at least some measure of Russian support and technical assistance.”
That could include the training of separatists on “vehicle-borne” anti-aircraft systems, which European Command chief Gen. Philip Breedlove has said has already happened on Russian soil. Or it could be Russian personnel working for or with the separatists. “We don’t know,” said Kirby.
But the US is now confident that the missile that downed MH-17 was fired from separatist-controlled territory, Kirby said — a statement so damning that I felt compelled to email the admiral to confirm I heard it correctly (he said I had). President Barack Obama said the same thing.]
Those of us – myself included – who have long been suspicious of Putin’s Russia should be careful not to rush to judgment. But the circumstantial evidence so far makes it highly unlikely the blame falls on Ukraine.
pretty conveinant that russia gets 100% of the blame despite not actually having control of the groups or region, especially when ukraine is ukraines responsability.
So if strangers break into your house and give a gun to your child, and the child shoots your wife, is it then your fault because your house is your responsibility?
nice straw man, OFC its the robbers fault in that situation where the source of the gun is PROVEN.
in the case of russia, it is simply speculated and alledged that they have supplied anti air missile platforms, and every legit western source simply makes that allegation, and you run with it like its a proven fact when it simply is not.
at this point the "stranger in the house" could be kiev, could be russia, could be some other party as well, the ukraine hasnt exactly kept good tabs on their own people/equiptment, and has been proven to have MUKs in the area (PROVEN, not alleged), though its not proven they used them.
It's not a strawmen, it's your scenario.
Your wife is dead, your kid has a gun that is not yours, there are clear signs that somebody broke into the house. By you will be responsible for her death because it's your house.
At least that is what Putin is saying and what you are saying.
chaos0xomega wrote: The West didn’t react in time, or with enough resolve, to the initial invasion and partition of Ukraine last spring, and there’s no reason to think our reaction will be any more effective or resolute this time. It would be reassuring to think America and Europe will now fully engage on the problem of Russian aggression, but it’s unlikely.
Well that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
This shouldn't have happened. The US, while not as culpable as Russia, is still to blame for it's embarrassing inaction.
Err, I think I'm being misquoted? I never said that...
Sorry Chaos. It's from the article you linked. My bad.
chaos0xomega wrote: The West didn’t react in time, or with enough resolve, to the initial invasion and partition of Ukraine last spring, and there’s no reason to think our reaction will be any more effective or resolute this time. It would be reassuring to think America and Europe will now fully engage on the problem of Russian aggression, but it’s unlikely.
Well that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
This shouldn't have happened. The US, while not as culpable as Russia, is still to blame for it's embarrassing inaction.
I'd say the blame should weigh much heavier on the EU.
Really? How so? Just interested in this track of though, I'm not trying to single you out.
Well, America world police doesn't mean the EU get's to sit back and twiddle their thumbs. We are right next to them, in a much better position for quick support.
chaos0xomega wrote: The West didn’t react in time, or with enough resolve, to the initial invasion and partition of Ukraine last spring, and there’s no reason to think our reaction will be any more effective or resolute this time. It would be reassuring to think America and Europe will now fully engage on the problem of Russian aggression, but it’s unlikely.
Well that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
This shouldn't have happened. The US, while not as culpable as Russia, is still to blame for it's embarrassing inaction.
I'd say the blame should weigh much heavier on the EU.
Really? How so? Just interested in this track of though, I'm not trying to single you out.
Well, America world police doesn't mean the EU get's to sit back and twiddle their thumbs. We are right next to them, in a much better position for quick support.
Is that related to their efforts to be admitted into the EU? Or Nato?
pretty conveinant that russia gets 100% of the blame despite not actually having control of the groups or region, especially when ukraine is ukraines responsability.
So if strangers break into your house and give a gun to your child, and the child shoots your wife, is it then your fault because your house is your responsibility?
nice straw man, OFC its the robbers fault in that situation where the source of the gun is PROVEN.
I'll give you a better comparison then.
One man assists another in breaking into your home. The second man, while in your home, finds a firearm, and then commits an unprovoked murder.
Is not the first man significantly responsible? In US criminal law, he would be guilty of murder.
pretty conveinant that russia gets 100% of the blame despite not actually having control of the groups or region, especially when ukraine is ukraines responsability.
So if strangers break into your house and give a gun to your child, and the child shoots your wife, is it then your fault because your house is your responsibility?
nice straw man, OFC its the robbers fault in that situation where the source of the gun is PROVEN.
in the case of russia, it is simply speculated and alledged that they have supplied anti air missile platforms, and every legit western source simply makes that allegation, and you run with it like its a proven fact when it simply is not.
at this point the "stranger in the house" could be kiev, could be russia, could be some other party as well, the ukraine hasnt exactly kept good tabs on their own people/equiptment, and has been proven to have MUKs in the area (PROVEN, not alleged), though its not proven they used them.
It's not a strawmen, it's your scenario.
Your wife is dead, your kid has a gun that is not yours, there are clear signs that somebody broke into the house. By you will be responsible for her death because it's your house.
At least that is what Putin is saying and what you are saying.
No its not what I am saying, stop misrepresenting me and making up my argument for me (strawmanning)
This UNKNOWN "robber" is unknown in YOUR scenario, and could very well have been the ukraine.
You keep saying its russias fault, even though we do not know that it was russia who "robbed the house" or shot the kid.
Its not my scenario, you clearly made up the "robber" scenario not me, so again, stop making up my argument for me.
If you are just going to make up both sides of the argument it shows how biased you really are, and how unwilling you are to accept any information other then what is spoon fed to you by your preferred bias of news sources.
Whoever gave them the gun has responsability, whoever shot the gun has responsability. Whoever owns the house, has a responsability to protect its inhabitants, even if its not criminally CULPABLE for the actual act. Just like the police are responsable for protecting you, though they are not to blame when you get shot by a crook.
WHO gave it, WHO shot it, are not proven yet, you are acting like they are.
And if we are going to play the speculation game,
its far more likely that IF it was separatists, that the SAM was looted from ukrainian stores then russia driving over the border and giving them one.
One man assists another in breaking into your home. The second man, while in your home, finds a firearm, and then commits an unprovoked murder.
Is not the first man significantly responsible? In US criminal law, he would be guilty of murder.
mhmm, and under canadian law, if it was my house, I AM STILL RESPONSABLE tertiarily because I am supposed to have all the guns secured so they cannot be stolen.
the point is, we do NOT know who did what, yet we have people asserting as FACT that they DO know who did what.
chaos0xomega wrote: The West didn’t react in time, or with enough resolve, to the initial invasion and partition of Ukraine last spring, and there’s no reason to think our reaction will be any more effective or resolute this time. It would be reassuring to think America and Europe will now fully engage on the problem of Russian aggression, but it’s unlikely.
Well that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
This shouldn't have happened. The US, while not as culpable as Russia, is still to blame for it's embarrassing inaction.
I'd say the blame should weigh much heavier on the EU.
Really? How so? Just interested in this track of though, I'm not trying to single you out.
Well, America world police doesn't mean the EU get's to sit back and twiddle their thumbs. We are right next to them, in a much better position for quick support.
Is that related to their efforts to be admitted into the EU? Or Nato?
chaos0xomega wrote: The West didn’t react in time, or with enough resolve, to the initial invasion and partition of Ukraine last spring, and there’s no reason to think our reaction will be any more effective or resolute this time. It would be reassuring to think America and Europe will now fully engage on the problem of Russian aggression, but it’s unlikely.
Well that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
This shouldn't have happened. The US, while not as culpable as Russia, is still to blame for it's embarrassing inaction.
I'd say the blame should weigh much heavier on the EU.
Really? How so? Just interested in this track of though, I'm not trying to single you out.
Well, America world police doesn't mean the EU get's to sit back and twiddle their thumbs. We are right next to them, in a much better position for quick support.
Is that related to their efforts to be admitted into the EU? Or Nato?
chaos0xomega wrote: The West didn’t react in time, or with enough resolve, to the initial invasion and partition of Ukraine last spring, and there’s no reason to think our reaction will be any more effective or resolute this time. It would be reassuring to think America and Europe will now fully engage on the problem of Russian aggression, but it’s unlikely.
Well that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
This shouldn't have happened. The US, while not as culpable as Russia, is still to blame for it's embarrassing inaction.
I'd say the blame should weigh much heavier on the EU.
Really? How so? Just interested in this track of though, I'm not trying to single you out.
Well, America world police doesn't mean the EU get's to sit back and twiddle their thumbs. We are right next to them, in a much better position for quick support.
Is that related to their efforts to be admitted into the EU? Or Nato?
wut.
LOL... I guess what specifically could the EU do?
I don't fething know. At least A thing? At this point I have no clue what anyone can do about the situation.
A short video posted to YouTube by the Ukrainian government reportedly shows a “Buk,” or SA-11 “Gadfly,” surface-to-air missile system en route from eastern Ukraine to the Russian border on Friday.
While the video cannot be independently verified, the footage appears to show the system with at least one of its missiles missing. It also appears to be mounted on a tracked chassis, although it has been loaded onto a flatbed trailer. Tracked vehicles are decidedly slower than their wheeled counterparts. The use of the truck could indicate the system’s own propulsion system is disabled, or that speed is a priority for whomever is moving it.
U.S. officials asserted Friday that the Malaysian airliner that crashed in Ukraine was likely downed by an SA-11 operated from a separatist-held location.
The SA-11 is only one variant of the Buk family of medium-range surface-to-air missiles that have been in service since the late 1970s. A newer model, the SA-17, has a longer engagement range and engagement altitude due to an enhanced radar tracking system that extends on a telescopic arm. Missiles fired by the newer variants can reach up to 70,000 feet, more than twice as high as MH17′s cruising altitude.
Both the SA-11 and SA-17 can be interfaced with other anti-aircraft systems through a command vehicle, creating a specific air defense grid for certain missions or defensive postures. Both systems can also be used in a standalone mode and can target aircraft with their on-board radars, regardless of whether there is a command vehicle present.
If such a missile system was used to down the MH17, it most likely would have been operating in standalone mode, as intelligence reports have indicated that the U.S. detected only one active anti-air radar system in the vicinity of the shoot-down.
While the SA-11 and SA-17 can fire a variety of different missiles, their average missile speed is roughly three times the speed of sound, or Mach 3, meaning the missile can travel approximately 89,000 feet per minute once it reaches top speed.
If the launcher was directly underneath MH17 when it fired, which it most likely wasn’t, the missile would have taken a little over 20 seconds to reach the airliner.
IIRC he and the US representative at the UN said that the weapon used could have only came from Russia and with Russian technicians firing it. Or well they said it was highly likely that this was the case. In the US' eyes the culprits are obvious, though they're inherently biased against the Russians in this situation obviously. They probably have their own agents in the area that they have a clear idea about exactly what happened, but its up to them whether they want to show that particular hand just yet.
As I see the events the situation went down something like this: a Russian launcher was deployed in the area to strike at Ukrainian transports. The presence of this launcher was known to the locals, who gloat about it in footage of the plane going down. Separatists go on social media also to gloat about hitting a military aircraft. The launcer is then wheeled back into Russia so there's no evidence of the Russians supplying the Separatists with direct aid (even though everyone and their mother knows their at it). Problem, the silhouette of a transport plane is a lot like a civilian aircraft, so they hit something they shouldn't. So immediately the online posts are removed and the Separatists go into full denial mode about the event, then to the default blame Kiev line. The Russians do their bid to muddy up the evidence and ask the international media why'd they'd think they'd be so stupid to do such a thing and instead say that it must've been Kiev that did it, as they clearly are a bunch of baby eaters (uh, before spending five minutes listing off all of Kiev's supposes faults, ignoring the point). The rest of the international community facepalms, but grit their teeth because they know just how much Putin's playing them. =P
Decent summary? Miss any points? Meh, if the paperwork hasn't been shredded already (which it probably has, if assets deployed in Ukraine or Crimea were even recovered in the first place) the real truth about this matter might be leaked eventually. It'd be a massive embarrassment for Putin's government though, so the Russians are going to do their damnedest to deny they had anything to do with any of this. If they're found out to have been involved in supplying the launcher, let alone its crew, then I doubt the UN would be too happy. At the moment know there's no tangible proof, at least none which the Russians can't find some way of worming themselves away from, so nothing can be done other than make snide remarks to one another (as ever, countries do have to get good at hiding this kind of crap otherwise nobody would be talking to anyone).
A short video posted to YouTube by the Ukrainian government reportedly shows a “Buk,” or SA-11 “Gadfly,” surface-to-air missile system en route from eastern Ukraine to the Russian border on Friday.
While the video cannot be independently verified, the footage appears to show the system with at least one of its missiles missing. It also appears to be mounted on a tracked chassis, although it has been loaded onto a flatbed trailer. Tracked vehicles are decidedly slower than their wheeled counterparts. The use of the truck could indicate the system’s own propulsion system is disabled, or that speed is a priority for whomever is moving it.
U.S. officials asserted Friday that the Malaysian airliner that crashed in Ukraine was likely downed by an SA-11 operated from a separatist-held location.
The SA-11 is only one variant of the Buk family of medium-range surface-to-air missiles that have been in service since the late 1970s. A newer model, the SA-17, has a longer engagement range and engagement altitude due to an enhanced radar tracking system that extends on a telescopic arm. Missiles fired by the newer variants can reach up to 70,000 feet, more than twice as high as MH17′s cruising altitude.
Both the SA-11 and SA-17 can be interfaced with other anti-aircraft systems through a command vehicle, creating a specific air defense grid for certain missions or defensive postures. Both systems can also be used in a standalone mode and can target aircraft with their on-board radars, regardless of whether there is a command vehicle present.
If such a missile system was used to down the MH17, it most likely would have been operating in standalone mode, as intelligence reports have indicated that the U.S. detected only one active anti-air radar system in the vicinity of the shoot-down.
While the SA-11 and SA-17 can fire a variety of different missiles, their average missile speed is roughly three times the speed of sound, or Mach 3, meaning the missile can travel approximately 89,000 feet per minute once it reaches top speed.
If the launcher was directly underneath MH17 when it fired, which it most likely wasn’t, the missile would have taken a little over 20 seconds to reach the airliner.
Until someone familiar with the area can come forward and say that 'yes, this road is located in x town and the direction of travel would place it heading towards y direction.' this video is just a video of a piece of military equipment on a flatbed in an undisclosed part of Ukraine.... thankfully there are a couple of possible landmarks in the video that can help make identifying the location either, hopefully someone does come forward, but I doubt anyone will.
This was just posted on RT and I thought it would be interesting to post it here: Ten questions Deputy Defense Minister of the Russian Federation Anatoly Antonov wants to ask the Ukrainian authorities about MH17.
TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?
2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?
4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?
5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?
6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?
7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?
8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?
9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?
10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.
Iron_Captain wrote: This was just posted on RT and I thought it would be interesting to post it here:
Ten questions Deputy Defense Minister of the Russian Federation Anatoly Antonov wants to ask the Ukrainian authorities about MH17.
TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?
2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?
4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?
5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?
6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?
7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?
8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?
9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?
10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.
Iron_Captain wrote: This was just posted on RT and I thought it would be interesting to post it here:
Ten questions Deputy Defense Minister of the Russian Federation Anatoly Antonov wants to ask the Ukrainian authorities about MH17.
TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?
2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?
4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?
5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?
6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?
7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?
8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?
9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?
10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.
I'd be fine with these questions, if we we get to ask Russia 10 questions in the same style.
Anyway, the biggest problem for me with the entire thing is still this:
Why the hell were airlines still flying planes over a warzone?
Because they were flying in a well known commercial corridor, that is also the main route from that area of Europe to southeast Asia.
The plane was flying at 33,000 feet - the IAA's recommendation & warning for that area was for all civil aircraft to maintain at least 32,000 feet cruising altitude.
The military planes the rebels had been shooting at fly at much lower altitudes.
They done Don't bypass the language filter like this Reds8n , up big time! Putin and Russia are not getting out of this one cleanly.
I think it's an air traffic control map, so it would probably include military transport flights as well. Which makes me think it's probably that. Seems unlikely that any civilian flight would be over that area today.
If the Sep's had control of Buk system for over a week. No one gave a heads up to everyone flying that the thing has a 81K feet range? That three aircrafts been "downed" in that AO..was someone waiting for something like this to happen? Just saying
Jihadin wrote: If the Sep's had control of Buk system for over a week. No one gave a heads up to everyone flying that the thing has a 81K feet range? That three aircrafts been "downed" in that AO..was someone waiting for something like this to happen? Just saying
Kiev government has released phone conversations between the separatist leaders stating that they shot down the plane thinking it was a military aircraft. Obviously this is unconfirmed.
DONETSK, July 17. /ITAR-TASS/. Militiamen of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) brought down a military transport Antonov-26 (An-26) plane of the Ukrainian Air Force on the outskirts of the town of Torez, eyewitnesses said.
A missile hit the An-26, it fell on the ground and caught blaze, they said.
On July 14, militiamen of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic downed another An-26 of the Ukrainian Air Force.
I'd be fine with these questions, if we we get to ask Russia 10 questions in the same style.
Anyway, the biggest problem for me with the entire thing is still this:
Why the hell were airlines still flying planes over a warzone?
It is easy to be wise after the event, but if we are honest, there have been many cases of people shooting down airliners not in war zones. For example the Russians shot down a Korean airliner. The US shot down an Iranian airliner. Both cases were essentially accidents or mistakes by regular forces. I am afraid it is a hazard of modern air travel, when there are so many weapons in the world.
There was an advisory not to fly below 30,000 feet. Only high power AA missiles would be able to hit planes above that. No-one expected that anyone would have such missiles or be foolish enough to shoot at civilian airliners.
Some airlines were taking the path of caution and not flying through the area anyway. I would guess that Air Malaysia flew through because it is the more direct route and therefore uses the least fuel. After the crash earlier in the year they had to drop their ticket prices and would want to save fuel costs.
What happened was a tragedy, but what the heck was a commercial airliner doing flying over a warzone? The U.S. Is guilty of the same thing a lot of people are hot to rip someone else's ass up about.
My wife at the time was in India when this happened and had to say she was Canadian to avoid being mobbed or killed since there were Indians that died on that flight.
Relapse wrote: What happened was a tragedy, but what the heck was a commercial airliner doing flying over a warzone?
Ukraine kept the space open and cleared planes to fly above 33,000. The great circle routes are still the best way to get from point A to point B, so some airlines kept on following it. I'm sure cost has a lot to do with it.
The U.S. Is guilty of the same thing a lot of people are hot to rip someone else's ass up about.
My wife at the time was in India when this happened and had to say she was Canadian to avoid being mobbed or killed since there were Indians that died on that flight.
That was a cluster, but at least we took responsibility.
Jihadin wrote: If the Sep's had control of Buk system for over a week. No one gave a heads up to everyone flying that the thing has a 81K feet range? That three aircrafts been "downed" in that AO..was someone waiting for something like this to happen? Just saying
Pretty much what I was thinking.
I thought it was actually confirmed that both sides had Buks in the area (or at the very least, the separatists had control of a single buk system), so I agree with what Jihadin said.
They've had BUKs for a while, whether we're talking about Ukraine and Russia or Ukraine and Ukrainian insurgents.
Not that huge of an issue for commercial aviation, or at least it shouldn't have been. Airliners bus their way through the sky merrily squawking "DON'T SHOOT ME I R CATTLE CAR I HAVE CIVILIANS" (aka Mode 3) to anybody who bothers to interrogate, and they have done and likely will continue to do it over conflict zones unless a true air war breaks out.
Either the insurgents just shot before interrogating, or, like in the case of the Iranian shoot-down by us, managed to completely forget everything they ever learned about transponder codes.
Seaward wrote: They've had BUKs for a while, whether we're talking about Ukraine and Russia or Ukraine and Ukrainian insurgents.
Not that huge of an issue for commercial aviation, or at least it shouldn't have been. Airliners bus their way through the sky merrily squawking "DON'T SHOOT ME I R CATTLE CAR I HAVE CIVILIANS" (aka Mode 3) to anybody who bothers to interrogate, and they have done and likely will continue to do it over conflict zones unless a true air war breaks out.
Either the insurgents just shot before interrogating, or, like in the case of the Iranian shoot-down by us, managed to completely forget everything they ever learned about transponder codes.
From the little bit I have been reading about this it seems like it is a lot easier to track something and shot it than it is to actually try to figure out what it is you are shooting at. Any knowledge if there is any truth in that?
d-usa wrote: From the little bit I have been reading about this it seems like it is a lot easier to track something and shot it than it is to actually try to figure out what it is you are shooting at. Any knowledge if there is any truth in that?
Absolutely true, if everyone's not playing correctly on both sides of the transponder.
A good (read: tragic) example is the F-15 shootdown of two Blackhawks in Iraq in 1994. Two F-15s start out patrolling the no-fly zone. Two MH-60s ferrying around UN inspectors or something enter it. The Blackhawks are squawking correctly on Mode 2, but squawking incorrectly on Mode 1. The F-15s eventually pick them up on radar, read them as Hinds instead of Blackhawks, and interrogate in Mode 1 (which returns a bad squawk) and Mode 4 (which does likewise), never interrogate Mode 2, and go, "Yep, definitely Hinds, AMRAAMs away." Made all the more improbable by the fact that the airspace was being controlled by Air Force AWACS who knew about both flights, were monitoring both, but just didn't put two and two together before the shooting started.
Jihadin wrote: If the Sep's had control of Buk system for over a week. No one gave a heads up to everyone flying that the thing has a 81K feet range? That three aircrafts been "downed" in that AO..was someone waiting for something like this to happen? Just saying
"It was a Civil Aviation Authority proscribed route, no official warning had been issued, they were flying above the proscribed 32,000ft" is a rather ridiculous thing to say in light of what has been happening in that region. It's the equivalent of wandering onto a railway track drunk because no-one has told you not to.
When I was flying over Europe during the Kosovan conflict, all civil flights had been re-routed along alternative flight paths. Had the same thing happen over the middle east in the early 00's.
Considering that within that region we have seen a fighter and transport aircraft downed over the past few weeks, you have to wonder at the wisdom of continuing flight paths over the Ukraine. This is compounded by the fact that almost half of the airline companies had recognised that there was danger involved, and had re-routed. Qantas for instance had a 400 mile no-fly zone. That company obviously has danger-prevention departments that are working correctly, and correctly estimated something that would have been obvious to even the layman - that flying over a politically unstable region, with extremely dangerous AA weaponry that was out of state control (and furthermore, had been used within the last week to down aircraft!) constituted a risk to civil aircraft.
Yes, this is Russia's fault for letting this situation develop in their own back yard, and helping to foster instability. It's also somewhat a result of existing instabilities in the region that have existed since the breakup of the USSR. But, the airline company must accept some of the responsibility for this. You don't sail a boat next to the rocks in stormy weather, it's as simple as that. This will no doubt kill Malaysian Airlines, and in my opinion it is deserved - they have failed in the most fundamental component of their business, which is to safely ferry their passengers from point A to point B.
Yeah, it has to make people wonder about the competence of Malaysia Airlines after misplacing one aircraft, and sending another into an active war zone where even military aircraft are getting shot down.
Someone high up in MA ought to be getting charged over this, gross negligence or whatever.
My wife at the time was in India when this happened and had to say she was Canadian to avoid being mobbed or killed since there were Indians that died on that flight.
That was a cluster, but at least we took responsibility.
Yes,in that we never denied it was us. However, it did lead to what is (in my opinion) one of the worst quotes and viewpoints in modern American politics:
"I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy." - George H.W. Bush.
I think one of the hallmarks of maturity is being able to freely admit when you're wrong, and my friend, when you accidentally kill 300 people, my friend, that's an apologizing situation.
Not trying to drag this offtopic into American politics, but I felt that since this episode came up organically, it would be remiss not to follow up with how our government handled it.
I'm more or less convinced it was the Ukrainian rebels.
At the same time though, I'm not entirely surprised that it occurred. Ukraine's major advantage over the rebels to date has been air power, so it would make sense for Russia to supply anti-air systems to Donetsk to hold off the forthcoming offensive. Clearly they didn't also supply trained personnel capable of recognising the difference between civilian and military aircraft. One must wonder about the wisdom in flying civilian flights over warzones as well.
For those already convinced of the evils of the Donetsk rebellion and Russia, further proof of their unrelenting barbarity. For those blinded to everything Western, a Ukrainian conspiracy. For the rest of us? A tragedy, and a mistake made in wartime that had horrendous consequences. Like many that have happened in the past, and will no doubt happen again in the future. My condolences to the grieving families.
Ukraine definitely has its share on this tragedy seeing that they still allowed air traffic to fly over a terrorist-controlled zone.
Nevertheless, Russia has again shown their complete lack of interest in resolving or even de-escalating the conflict. The worst thing is that it still isn't possible to properly research the crash site due to terrorists hindering observers and purposefully manipulating it. The inactivity of the West in taking the terrorists down along with Russia maybe even directly supporting them, has now costed 300 civilian lives. It's getting worse day by day.
Jihadin wrote: If the Sep's had control of Buk system for over a week. No one gave a heads up to everyone flying that the thing has a 81K feet range? That three aircrafts been "downed" in that AO..was someone waiting for something like this to happen? Just saying
Pretty much what I was thinking.
I thought it was actually confirmed that both sides had Buks in the area (or at the very least, the separatists had control of a single buk system), so I agree with what Jihadin said.
Yeah, I believe it was confirmed that the Seperatists stole a Buk launcher vehicle from an Ukrainian base a few weeks ago. I don't know where that information comes from, but I've read it in several (Dutch as well as Russian) newspapers.
To those talking about "why were they flying there in the first place" The airspace below 33K feet had been closed, but opened up above that. 55 flights that same day had flown through that corridor or nearby, and there as a flight within 15 miles of the MH17 flight at the same altitude.
The only planes being shot at had been flying well below that altitude with different flight profiles.
Soladrin wrote: Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.
Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.
The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough.
If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?
The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting.
For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.
ski2060 wrote: To those talking about "why were they flying there in the first place" The airspace below 33K feet had been closed, but opened up above that. 55 flights that same day had flown through that corridor or nearby, and there as a flight within 15 miles of the MH17 flight at the same altitude.
The only planes being shot at had been flying well below that altitude with different flight profiles.
So, does that excuse them flying through a warzone where anti-air missiles with a range of up to 72.000 feet were already confirmed?
Yup, these so called armed rebbels need to be shot on sight around the crash site. Researchers who were working there are sent away by these dirtbags while they just destroy evidence and keep the bodies out there with this heat, it's disgusting. Putin is basically ignoring everything.
On top of that Russia keeps blaming it on the Ukraine if you look at the Russian Wikipedia page of the crash. There is a Twitter Bot that tells when the Russian government changes certain wikipedia pages. That doesn't help them either.
The Netherlands have ordered their banks to immediately close down all accounts of people having died in the plane crash because of terrorists who stole the credit cards.
Soladrin wrote: Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.
Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.
The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough.
If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?
The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting.
For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.
The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them. They are afraid that those international organisations not be fair in their research and will attempt to put all blame on them. That is why they are so reluctant in giving them unlimited access to the crash site. What makes it even more complicated is that the seperatists are not really a unified whole. They consist of several different groups, so if you make a deal with one commander, that does not mean another commander will respect that.
The remains of the victims have not been taken care of yet because it is simply not possible to do so. There is not enough capacity in the area to transport and store so many bodies. The bodies are supposed to be taken to Kharkov, which is a very large city with enough capacity, but Kharkov lies outside of seperatist-controlled area, and thus they can't take them there. And they don't trust the Ukrainians enough to let them in to take care of the bodies. Furthermore, the area is a warzone. Kiev has not stopped its offensive, so the seperatists have other things on their mind than dealing with the air crash.
All in all, it is a very unfortunate situation.
Soladrin wrote: Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.
Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.
The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough.
If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?
The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting.
For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.
The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them. They are afraid that those international organisations not be fair in their research and will attempt to put all blame on them. That is why they are so reluctant in giving them unlimited access to the crash site. What makes it even more complicated is that the seperatists are not really a unified whole. They consist of several different groups, so if you make a deal with one commander, that does not mean another commander will respect that.
The remains of the victims have not been taken care of yet because it is simply not possible to do so. There is not enough capacity in the area to transport and store so many bodies. The bodies are supposed to be taken to Kharkov, which is a very large city with enough capacity, but Kharkov lies outside of seperatist-controlled area, and thus they can't take them there. And they don't trust the Ukrainians enough to let them in to take care of the bodies. Furthermore, the area is a warzone. Kiev has not stopped its offensive, so the seperatists have other things on their mind than dealing with the air crash.
All in all, it is a very unfortunate situation.
Yeah because the Pro-Russian Separatists are sooooooo... trustworthy themselves. I have seen enough that both parties aren't doing great either. But the Russian side just makes it worse and worse for themselves. For poop sake the damned Separatists basically admitted doing this it via their so called Russian Facebook.
If I was a member of the Ukraine government, I'd make securing the crash site and facilitating an investigation by International organisations a top Military priority. If there is anything that will finally prompt Western governments to pull their collective finger out of their collective arse and take decisive action against Russia, then THIS is it - the manslaughter of hundreds of Western citizens.
Oh for feths sake, hes not apologising for Russia (in fact, he wasn't even talking about Russia, hes talking about the Ukrainian Seperatists), hes explaining the mindset of the various Separatist groups and their motives for impeding any investigation into the crash, which naturally complicates the situation.
Text removed.
Reds8n
You really ought to stop over reacting to everything he says.
Soladrin wrote: Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.
Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.
The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough. If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?
The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting. For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.
The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them. They are afraid that those international organisations not be fair in their research and will attempt to put all blame on them. That is why they are so reluctant in giving them unlimited access to the crash site. What makes it even more complicated is that the seperatists are not really a unified whole. They consist of several different groups, so if you make a deal with one commander, that does not mean another commander will respect that. The remains of the victims have not been taken care of yet because it is simply not possible to do so. There is not enough capacity in the area to transport and store so many bodies. The bodies are supposed to be taken to Kharkov, which is a very large city with enough capacity, but Kharkov lies outside of seperatist-controlled area, and thus they can't take them there. And they don't trust the Ukrainians enough to let them in to take care of the bodies. Furthermore, the area is a warzone. Kiev has not stopped its offensive, so the seperatists have other things on their mind than dealing with the air crash. All in all, it is a very unfortunate situation.
Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?
I wasn't aware I was apolgising for Russia. Russia has little direct influence on this situation. I was talking about the seperatists, and whether you like it or not, what I said was true. The seperatists don't trust the Ukrainian authorities nor Western organisations, and for good reasons.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: Yeah because the Pro-Russian Separatists are sooooooo... trustworthy themselves. I have seen enough that both parties aren't doing great either. But the Russian side just makes it worse and worse for themselves. For poop sake the damned Separatists basically admitted doing this it via their so called Russian Facebook.
No, the seperatists are not trustworthy either, but that is not the point here. And it is called VKontakte, not 'the Russian Facebook'. That is only a term Western media invented because ignorant Westerners don't know anything about Russia/Ukraine/Belarus and otherwise would not be able to understand what it is.
Soladrin wrote: Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.
Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.
The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough.
If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?
The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting.
For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.
The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them. They are afraid that those international organisations not be fair in their research and will attempt to put all blame on them. That is why they are so reluctant in giving them unlimited access to the crash site. What makes it even more complicated is that the seperatists are not really a unified whole. They consist of several different groups, so if you make a deal with one commander, that does not mean another commander will respect that.
The remains of the victims have not been taken care of yet because it is simply not possible to do so. There is not enough capacity in the area to transport and store so many bodies. The bodies are supposed to be taken to Kharkov, which is a very large city with enough capacity, but Kharkov lies outside of seperatist-controlled area, and thus they can't take them there. And they don't trust the Ukrainians enough to let them in to take care of the bodies. Furthermore, the area is a warzone. Kiev has not stopped its offensive, so the seperatists have other things on their mind than dealing with the air crash.
All in all, it is a very unfortunate situation.
Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?
I wasn't aware I was apolgising for Russia. Russia has little direct influence on this situation. I was talking about the seperatists, and whether you like it or not, what I said was true. The seperatists don't trust the Ukrainian authorities nor Western organisations, and for good reasons.
That reason being that they are traitors? Fair enough.
Soladrin wrote: Just read a statement from Ukraine saying the separatists have taken away 38 bodies. Ukraine obviously says this is to hide evidence.
Regardless of the reason, if this is even remotely true it is completely unacceptable.
The fact that the separatists are completely countering any type of real international attempts to secure the crime scene, or even deal with the victims remains with even a shred of dignity is damning enough.
If they didn't do it as they stupidly try to claim, why are they so damn intent on preventing any kind of investigation?
The fact that the initial team of European Security Observers have reported that many of the rebels "guarding" the crime scene have appeared drunk is just disgusting.
For 2 days now the victims remains have been left rotting on scene, alongside reports of looting of their personal belongings. If the rebels had even a shred of humanity about them, they'd at least be letting international personnel in to remove the remains so that the families can have a better sense of closure.
The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them. They are afraid that those international organisations not be fair in their research and will attempt to put all blame on them. That is why they are so reluctant in giving them unlimited access to the crash site. What makes it even more complicated is that the seperatists are not really a unified whole. They consist of several different groups, so if you make a deal with one commander, that does not mean another commander will respect that.
The remains of the victims have not been taken care of yet because it is simply not possible to do so. There is not enough capacity in the area to transport and store so many bodies. The bodies are supposed to be taken to Kharkov, which is a very large city with enough capacity, but Kharkov lies outside of seperatist-controlled area, and thus they can't take them there. And they don't trust the Ukrainians enough to let them in to take care of the bodies. Furthermore, the area is a warzone. Kiev has not stopped its offensive, so the seperatists have other things on their mind than dealing with the air crash.
All in all, it is a very unfortunate situation.
Will you ever stop apologizing for Russia?
I wasn't aware I was apolgising for Russia. Russia has little direct influence on this situation. I was talking about the seperatists, and whether you like it or not, what I said was true. The seperatists don't trust the Ukrainian authorities nor Western organisations, and for good reasons.
So there are multiple Separatist groups with seperate chains of Command. Do you acknowledge that its possible that the particular group responsible for shooting down MH17 (assuming that it was the Separatists, which I think is the case) could be attempting to cover up their act by tampering with the crime scene?
Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award
Oh, you mean like President Obama's Nobel Peace Prize? I bet all the civilians in Yemen and Pakistan are real grateful for all the love bombs he sent their way.
Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award
To be fair, Putin deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama did. At least Putin actually managed to stop the US from bombing Syria, destroying the Assad regime and allowing ISIS to take over the entire region. Wouldn't be the first time the US helped terrorists to get to power.
Iron_Captain wrote: And it is called VKontakte, not 'the Russian Facebook'. That is only a term Western media invented because ignorant Westerners don't know anything about Russia/Ukraine/Belarus and otherwise would not be able to understand what it is.
Why would I even look up whatever it's called. It's unimportant as it's basicly the same thing.
And this whole thing is to blame on one Seperatists group that was active in that area. It doesn't help that their "Leader" has close ties to the Russian Secret Service either.
Oh, you mean like President Obama's Nobel Peace Prize? I bet all the civilians in Yemen and Pakistan are real grateful for all the love bombs he sent their way.
I purposefully did not refer to the Nobel Prize because it lost all meaning after Obama got it for nothing - sadly.
Oh, you mean like President Obama's Nobel Peace Prize? I bet all the civilians in Yemen and Pakistan are real grateful for all the love bombs he sent their way.
I purposefully did not refer to the Nobel Prize because it lost all meaning after Obama got it for nothing - sadly.
Not true... he got it largely for being the first black US President. Oh... and lowers sea levels... Oh... to restore US in the view of the world.
Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award
To be fair, Putin deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama did. At least Putin actually managed to stop the US from bombing Syria, destroying the Assad regime and allowing ISIS to take over the entire region. Wouldn't be the first time the US helped terrorists to get to power.
Good one. Shame the ISIL exists primarily because Russia and China allowed the Syrian rot to fester for so long.
Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award
To be fair, Putin deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama did. At least Putin actually managed to stop the US from bombing Syria, destroying the Assad regime and allowing ISIS to take over the entire region. Wouldn't be the first time the US helped terrorists to get to power.
Good one. Shame the ISIL exists primarily because Russia and China allowed the Syrian rot to fester for so long.
Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award
To be fair, Putin deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama did. At least Putin actually managed to stop the US from bombing Syria, destroying the Assad regime and allowing ISIS to take over the entire region. Wouldn't be the first time the US helped terrorists to get to power.
Good one. Shame the ISIL exists primarily because Russia and China allowed the Syrian rot to fester for so long.
Thats some weird logic.
We the West wanted to back the rebel groups fighting the Syrian regime, among which was ISIS. If we'd had our way and the Syrian regime was overthrown, some of the very same people now invading Iraq might have been able to seize power in Syria... or, more likely, the rebel groups would have simply turned on each other in their moment of victory, competing amongst themselves for power in the new Syria, as is happening in Libya.
The way I see it, the main reason why ISIS is so powerful now is because Assad failed to stamp it out in the first place along with the various other rebel groups.
Maybe we forgot to think that the strongmen of the Arab world were what kept the crazy fringe groups under control.
In every nation now under siege in one way or another, the strongman fell and the factions bubbling underneath oozed through the cracks and became significant threats.
A U.S. official confirmed to The Washington Post on Saturday that Russia supplied advanced missile launchers to separatist groups in Ukraine, and that those launchers were moved back across the border after the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17. The Russian government has so far denied sending weapons to the rebel groups, and the rebels have denied possessing them, though they have boasted online about shooting down other aircraft.
According to the report by journalists Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung, U.S. intelligence officials learned "a little more than a week ago" that Russia was attempting to move the weapon systems, known as the Buk-M1, into Ukraine. Several videos have surfaced over the last two days of the mobile launchers being moved on Ukrainian roads, including back toward the Russian border, though those videos were unconfirmed. This would appear to be the first direct accusation from American sources tying the disaster to the Russian government.
Although Ukraine has their own versions of the Russian-made Buk missiles, the government claims they did not leave any behind in separatist controlled-areas. If true, the missiles could likely have only come from the other side of the Russian border.
Earlier on Saturday, the Ukrainian government announced it had evidence directly tying the Russians to the crash. The head of Kiev's state security service, Vitaly Nayda, displayed pictures of Buk missiles being moved toward the Russian border.
Meanwhile, officials from several countries who lost citizens in the crash are growing increasingly frustrated with the inability to secure the crash site for a proper investigation, and to recover the bodies of the victims. Journalists on the scene report that armed separatists, some of whom were visibly drunk, denied foreign investigators access to the site on Saturday. There are also a number of reports that the bodies of some of the victims have been taken away to unknown locations, possibly to hide or destroy evidence. Those that remain are quickly decomposing in the heat and humidity, and much of their personal property has been looted.
Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte is reportedly "furious" with Russian President Vladimir Putin, with whom he had a tense and "personal" phone conversation on Saturday. "I told him 'time is running out for you to show the world that you have good intentions, that you will take responsibility,'" Rutte said. At least 193 of the 298 people on board the plane were from the Netherlands. Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott (who lost 28 of his own citizens) has essentially accused Russia of being complicit in the attack and threatened to withhold Putin's invitation to the G20 summit in November.
The UN or NATO should (with permission from the Ukrainian Government) enter Ukraine & surround/secure the crash site to permit investigation & full recovery.
I'm sure with a sizeable deployment, the Pro-Russian Rebels & the Russians would have to seriously rethink.
(A fleet in the Black Sea would be very persuasive).
It could end the nonsense that should have been taken care of months ago, and prevent further escalation.
Canis wrote: The UN or NATO should (with permission from the Ukrainian Government) enter Ukraine & surround/secure the crash site to permit investigation & full recovery.
I'm sure with a sizeable deployment, the Pro-Russian Rebels & the Russians would have to seriously rethink.
(A fleet in the Black Sea would be very persuasive).
It could end the nonsense that should have been taken care of months ago, and prevent further escalation.
Canis wrote: The UN or NATO should (with permission from the Ukrainian Government) enter Ukraine & surround/secure the crash site to permit investigation & full recovery.
I'm sure with a sizeable deployment, the Pro-Russian Rebels & the Russians would have to seriously rethink.
(A fleet in the Black Sea would be very persuasive).
It could end the nonsense that should have been taken care of months ago, and prevent further escalation.
Action is overdue.
Good luck, have fun!
Or non-action would be best.
I may sound crazy, but the United States taking a hands off approach militarily to the world has worked wonders. Everywhere is so entrenched in conflict no one is bothering to harass the United States anymore, save for Putin who is the greatest Russian troll who has ever lived. And also N. Korea, but they're more or less an animal locked in a very secure cage.
A U.S. official confirmed to The Washington Post on Saturday that Russia supplied advanced missile launchers to separatist groups in Ukraine, and that those launchers were moved back across the border after the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17. The Russian government has so far denied sending weapons to the rebel groups, and the rebels have denied possessing them, though they have boasted online about shooting down other aircraft.
According to the report by journalists Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung, U.S. intelligence officials learned "a little more than a week ago" that Russia was attempting to move the weapon systems, known as the Buk-M1, into Ukraine. Several videos have surfaced over the last two days of the mobile launchers being moved on Ukrainian roads, including back toward the Russian border, though those videos were unconfirmed. This would appear to be the first direct accusation from American sources tying the disaster to the Russian government.
Although Ukraine has their own versions of the Russian-made Buk missiles, the government claims they did not leave any behind in separatist controlled-areas. If true, the missiles could likely have only come from the other side of the Russian border.
Earlier on Saturday, the Ukrainian government announced it had evidence directly tying the Russians to the crash. The head of Kiev's state security service, Vitaly Nayda, displayed pictures of Buk missiles being moved toward the Russian border.
Meanwhile, officials from several countries who lost citizens in the crash are growing increasingly frustrated with the inability to secure the crash site for a proper investigation, and to recover the bodies of the victims. Journalists on the scene report that armed separatists, some of whom were visibly drunk, denied foreign investigators access to the site on Saturday. There are also a number of reports that the bodies of some of the victims have been taken away to unknown locations, possibly to hide or destroy evidence. Those that remain are quickly decomposing in the heat and humidity, and much of their personal property has been looted.
Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte is reportedly "furious" with Russian President Vladimir Putin, with whom he had a tense and "personal" phone conversation on Saturday. "I told him 'time is running out for you to show the world that you have good intentions, that you will take responsibility,'" Rutte said. At least 193 of the 298 people on board the plane were from the Netherlands. Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott (who lost 28 of his own citizens) has essentially accused Russia of being complicit in the attack and threatened to withhold Putin's invitation to the G20 summit in November.
Wait. The Sep's did not captured any system at the base they over ran?
LordofHats wrote: So the Ukraine claims. I've only just started paying attention to the whole thing over there with this incident. I haven't followed it for weeks now.
But it looks like the US Government is ready to start laying down accusations rather then dancing around the issue.
Without wanting to be partisan (and I'm not considering I live in New Zealand) but the Obama administration is probably feeling like it needs something it can call a foreign policy victory, because recently it hasn't been looking that great for the US in the foreign policy front, at least in the eyes of the press
I mean after the Syria thing they were acting like Putin was the next Bismarck
In reality I think he bears more similarities to another famous German statesman
Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base. Now Ukraine is saying none were captured........now we have "video" of a SA11 in plain sight No tarp, no cover, no time frame, no attempt to cover (again) the SA11 on a flat bed. Going down a road apparently heading into Russia. Russia is not that freaking dumb to have the evidence in plain freaking sight.
LordofHats wrote: So the Ukraine claims. I've only just started paying attention to the whole thing over there with this incident. I haven't followed it for weeks now.
But it looks like the US Government is ready to start laying down accusations rather then dancing around the issue.
Without wanting to be partisan (and I'm not considering I live in New Zealand) but the Obama administration is probably feeling like it needs something it can call a foreign policy victory, because recently it hasn't been looking that great for the US in the foreign policy front, at least in the eyes of the press
I mean after the Syria thing they were acting like Putin was the next Bismarck
In reality I think he bears more similarities to another famous German statesman
Agreed
Also, since when has American not be fully willing to blame Russia for destabilizing the former Soviet Bloc
Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base.
Yeah someone whose been following this more closely probably in a better position to answer that. Be pretty ballsy for the Ukraine to change their story just now.
The Buk-M1, or SA-11 Gadfly is a nasty bit of kit, its believed that the Georgians downed a Tu-22 and three Su-25s with them during the 2008 war, and that the Russians themselves were not able to employ effective countermeasures against them.
I really don't get people who say "how could they have downed a commercial liner?" The Buk-M1 is designed to engage high speed military craft and even cruise missiles, a 777 is easy game for one
EmilCrane wrote: The Buk-M1, or SA-11 Gadfly is a nasty bit of kit, its believed that the Georgians downed a Tu-22 and three Su-25s with them during the 2008 war, and that the Russians themselves were not able to employ effective countermeasures against them.
I really don't get people who say "how could they have downed a commercial liner?" The Buk-M1 is designed to engage high speed military craft and even cruise missiles, a 777 is easy game for one
Jihadin wrote: Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base. Now Ukraine is saying none were captured........now we have "video" of a SA11 in plain sight No tarp, no cover, no time frame, no attempt to cover (again) the SA11 on a flat bed. Going down a road apparently heading into Russia. Russia is not that freaking dumb to have the evidence in plain freaking sight.
On the BBC news it said, the missile system was moved back into Russia at 1am, IE in the dark. That film did not to my mind look like nighttime. They can't all be right. I hate feeling that the media is trying to manipulate me. Brings to mind TNG, Worf saying to the klingons
"you must think us stupid to make your lies so transparent."
This conflict is drenched in propaganda on both sides, as are all armed conflicts. The Ukranian Government will always have evidence of Russia's involvement (wether doctored or not) and vice versa.
Personally I think the seperatists are actually behind the shooting down of the plane, and by denying it they really don't help their cause and prove their guilt (I explain that further down). The already little respect some of the world had for them, will dissolve when the truth comes out that they actually shot down the plane. I think they are instructed by Russia to deny any responsibility as Russia no doubt supplies the rebels with weapons like tanks and the AA batteries. Furthermore Russia is stalling by promising everything about cooperating, launching independent investigations and so forth, for reasons not known, although probably those being delay tactics for covering up any Russian involvement and disposing of evidence.
I think the negative responses for the seperatists would be much less if they admitted making a mistake (if it was a mistake) as well as allowing access to foreign investigators to the disaster site. With this current stance, the rebels loose any respect they might have in the world as well as making them look very, very guilty (as if they were innocent, they would allow investigators on-site as that would mean evidence gathering against Ukraine). With the guilt of the seperatisits, Russia will get flak too and be hit with more severe sanctions, which will destroy the country even more.
Main priority is though; The bodies of the fallen now need to be collected and brought back to their homelands a.s.a.p.
Jihadin wrote: Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base. Now Ukraine is saying none were captured........now we have "video" of a SA11 in plain sight No tarp, no cover, no time frame, no attempt to cover (again) the SA11 on a flat bed. Going down a road apparently heading into Russia. Russia is not that freaking dumb to have the evidence in plain freaking sight.
Obviously the people they employ to destabilize their neighbors are.
Seriously, when is Russia going to change their name to "Lieingsacksofsh*tistan"?
Russia has no choice. It basically is a developing country that ups its status by huge military power. Without their military presence, all states would be all over the land. I.e. Africa. Russia is driven by corruption and a lack of freedom of speech in order to maintain the status quo, so they just cannot afford showing weakness in order to appease those really controlling the state: the rich ones. If the US/EU would decide on sanctions against the highest millionaires, a military reaction would be the only choice Russia has because - it has nothing else to offer.
The entire state is solely reliant on finite ressources. Not a concept made for the end of time to begin with.
Jihadin wrote: Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base. Now Ukraine is saying none were captured........now we have "video" of a SA11 in plain sight No tarp, no cover, no time frame, no attempt to cover (again) the SA11 on a flat bed. Going down a road apparently heading into Russia. Russia is not that freaking dumb to have the evidence in plain freaking sight.
Obviously the people they employ to destabilize their neighbors are.
Seriously, when is Russia going to change their name to "Lieingsacksofsh*tistan"?
After the US has changed its name to Scheminghypocriticalmurderersia of course.
Low_K wrote: This conflict is drenched in propaganda on both sides, as are all armed conflicts. The Ukranian Government will always have evidence of Russia's involvement (wether doctored or not) and vice versa.
Personally I think the seperatists are actually behind the shooting down of the plane, and by denying it they really don't help their cause and prove their guilt (I explain that further down). The already little respect some of the world had for them, will dissolve when the truth comes out that they actually shot down the plane. I think they are instructed by Russia to deny any responsibility as Russia no doubt supplies the rebels with weapons like tanks and the AA batteries. Furthermore Russia is stalling by promising everything about cooperating, launching independent investigations and so forth, for reasons not known, although probably those being delay tactics for covering up any Russian involvement and disposing of evidence.
I think the negative responses for the seperatists would be much less if they admitted making a mistake (if it was a mistake) as well as allowing access to foreign investigators to the disaster site. With this current stance, the rebels loose any respect they might have in the world as well as making them look very, very guilty (as if they were innocent, they would allow investigators on-site as that would mean evidence gathering against Ukraine). With the guilt of the seperatisits, Russia will get flak too and be hit with more severe sanctions, which will destroy the country even more.
Main priority is though; The bodies of the fallen now need to be collected and brought back to their homelands a.s.a.p.
The seperatists themselves claim they are collecting the bodies (because they are starting to stink quite a lot) and taking them to Donetsk. The problem is that the mortuaria in Donetsk don't have enough capacity for all the bodies.
Curiously enough, the seperatists also claim to be very concerned over the absence so far of international experts (the only people so far to show up have been Western journalists and the OVSE, which is not trusted by the seperatists).
I don't know the truth about all this, so I guess I will just leave the RT article here so you can judge for yourself: http://rt.com/news/174200-international-experts-crash-site/
A top Ukrainian rebel leader said on Sunday that the pro-Russian fighters will guarantee the safety of international monitors at the Malaysian jet's crash site if Kiev agrees to a truce.
"We declare that we will guarantee the safety of international experts on the scene as soon as Kiev concludes a ceasefire agreement," the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic's deputy premier Andrei Purgin said in a statement.
He urged Kiev to "immediately conclude such an agreement" with the rebels.
Failure to do so would give the impression that the government is made up of "dangerous lunatics, bloodthirsty maniacs (who are) dangerous not only for the residents of Donbass but also for the world community", Purgin warned.
Purgin's statement came as the international community piled pressure on Russia to get the Moscow-backed rebels to grant investigators full access to the crash site of the Malaysian MH17 jet.
Hah. Fat chance of that happening. The government will just keep on bombing the Separatists and sending in the troops, whilst simultaneously feigning outrage and proclaiming to the world that the rebels are obstructing inspection of the site.
MrDwhitey wrote: So the rebels are trying to use the crash as a form of bargaining chip against Kiev, and Kiev isn't playing that game, for now.
Ok.
Be that as it may, the crash site is in Rebel territory, and the Rebels apparently possess the Black Box and many of the bodies of the victims. The only way a proper inspection and investigation of the crash site can be carried out, and the victims repatriated is with the cooperation of the rebel Separatists.
Would you prefer the Kiev government prioritise killing Separatists over facilitating the investigation of a major international disaster and the repatriation of victims?
There should have been a ceasefire months ago, and the two sides brought to the negotiating table to find a mutually agreeable compromise e.g. Devolution for eastern Ukraine, in return for disarmament.
If the two sides can't even agree to a temporary ceasefire to allow International organisations to carry out an investigation and the repatriation of victims, then there is no hope for Ukraine.
MrDwhitey wrote: So you're fine with them using it as a bargaining chip. Ok.
So you're fine with the Kiev Government taking the high road and refusing to compromise, whilst the victims lie forgotten and rotting in some run down bomb damaged morgue or warehouse whilst the War rages on? Ok.
MrDwhitey wrote: I just know that one party is there on the ground blocking access.
That party isn't related to Kiev.
Its a fething WAR. The crash site is in Rebel territory. They posses the Black Box and the victims bodies. The morality of blocking the access of International organisations is irrelevant. They have the power here, so they're setting the terms.
The ONLY way the crash site and victims can be dealt with in a timely manner is with the cooperation of the Rebels, so that means a Ceasefire.
Does that mean I like them, or that I'm on their side? No of course not. They're despicable scum bags. But so are the fascists and nationalists who seized power in Kiev. Atrocities like this are happening every day, Ukrainian airstrikes are killing civilians.
No, it means the rebels allow access. A ceasefire isn't required. They're using this an international tragedy they caused as a bargaining chip to try get a ceasefire.
I personally think Kiev should actually go for a ceasefire because I fething hate war.
LordofHats wrote: So the Ukraine claims. I've only just started paying attention to the whole thing over there with this incident. I haven't followed it for weeks now.
But it looks like the US Government is ready to start laying down accusations rather then dancing around the issue.
Maybe Obama is finally ready to see reality instead of making half assed jokes about the 80's calling.
MrDwhitey wrote: No, it means the rebels allow access. A ceasefire isn't required. They're using this an international tragedy they caused as a bargaining chip to try get a ceasefire.
I personally think Kiev should actually go for a ceasefire because I fething hate war.
Yes, I get it. They're despicable scum bags, exploiting an atrocity that they inadvertently committed. But they're the ones in control, so for the sake of the victims' families Kiev should agree to a ceasefire so the Int. Investigators can do their job, and repatriate the victims ASAP.
Otherwise, they'll just obstruct any efforts, and the torment of the victims' families will be prolonged for months to come.
The Rebels are facing obliteration, they have nothing to lose by being obstructive. No ceasefire, no repatriation and investigation.
In the meantime, slap Russia with economic sanctions if they continue to supply arms (if indeed they are).
Iron_Captain wrote: ((SNIP))
The seperatists themselves claim they are collecting the bodies (because they are starting to stink quite a lot) and taking them to Donetsk. The problem is that the mortuaria in Donetsk don't have enough capacity for all the bodies.
Curiously enough, the seperatists also claim to be very concerned over the absence so far of international experts (the only people so far to show up have been Western journalists and the OVSE, which is not trusted by the seperatists).
I don't know the truth about all this, so I guess I will just leave the RT article here so you can judge for yourself: http://rt.com/news/174200-international-experts-crash-site/
I noticed you being very pro-Russian, zaelously defending them and being Russian, I take it you actually were born there? As you are 14 I think you are still under the influence of your parents, who most likely raised you with Mother Russia as priority, forgetting most likely the state the country is now in. If you state that Russia is the a country without faults (not having to mention WWII) in the world and Putin really is a great guy (not to mention his KGB past) I truly doubt that you have been able to form an own opinion. Don't get me wrong, it is absolutely normal to have thoughts and opinions which are the same as your parents on that age, and you will form an own opinion when you get older (or stay with the same although that is rare when you are open to other viewpoints).
I personally like many Russian things like I find the Russian National Anthem one of the (if not THE) greatest in the world, love the Russian Fail- and Car Crash movies on Youtube and even have a Rebel Grot army of Russian based miniatures, but I also see the wrongs they did and still do. It is just your pink coloured glasses (dangerous thing to wear in Russia btw, luckily not in Holland ), that really cloud your judgement of the politics of that same Russia you defend with everything you got. If you would've been be older, I would have thought you were the personal designated spokesperson of Putin himself Not to sound harsh or anything, it is just that your replies sweet-talking many actions of rebels and (especially) Russia kinda gets annoying as you don't seem to be open for other people's views. Any criticism of Russia you counter as you did in reply to SlaveToDorkness' new name for Russia in not a very constructive way. I am amazed at your English writing skills on your age though!
Back to topic; You are posting an article which is hardly independent (as are most news stations though) as a few reporters even quit not wanting to be Putin's personal propaganda trumpet. I can recall that the first group of OVSE people on the site were harassed and sent away by the rebels on-site. I don't know what the Dutch Foreign Minister is doing back in Holland, as he was dispatched to the Ukraine, only to return without any progress, and don't know who made him turn back or that he found the situation too dangerous. The stance of the Dutch is very weak, but we are a small country and cannot just invade Eastern Ukraine and start securing the site, killing all who oppose us (although some action should be taken a a long time ago).
The reason the experts aren't there yet is that the situation is very fragile. The seperatists on-site are probably some rogue band of criminals without any overall command whatsoever (as they didn't strike me as very organised) and are difficult to give commands by anyone. I guess the news that the rebels await the experts is that they got rid of any evidence and are now willing to release the site. It is known that the black boxes of the plane are in their hands too and I truly hope they give it to the experts. The main thing is closure for the relatives and people close to the victims, and that starts by returning the bodies for proper burial. The guilt question and getting the people who did it comes way after that.
All the black boxes will disappear into Russia where no one outside the country will have access. Then Russia will likely say nothing was recoverable or come out with some implausible and totally unverifiable story.
Come on. If you go to RT to get info on anything that even borderlines being extremely slightly negative towards Russia, you might as well ask Tom Kirby what he thinks about GW.
Ukraine should definitely take the terrorist's offer though. Noone denies that bargaining with terrorists is bad, but this is not just about the fight against terrorism in Ukraine, this also is about the countless families wanting nothing but burying their beloved ones back home. Just agree to a truce, recover all corpses and possible traces, and then break it up and finish them off with some lead.
Iron_Captain wrote: ((SNIP)) The seperatists themselves claim they are collecting the bodies (because they are starting to stink quite a lot) and taking them to Donetsk. The problem is that the mortuaria in Donetsk don't have enough capacity for all the bodies. Curiously enough, the seperatists also claim to be very concerned over the absence so far of international experts (the only people so far to show up have been Western journalists and the OVSE, which is not trusted by the seperatists). I don't know the truth about all this, so I guess I will just leave the RT article here so you can judge for yourself: http://rt.com/news/174200-international-experts-crash-site/
I noticed you being very pro-Russian, zaelously defending them and being Russian, I take it you actually were born there? As you are 14 I think you are still under the influence of your parents, who most likely raised you with Mother Russia as priority, forgetting most likely the state the country is now in. If you state that Russia is the a country without faults (not having to mention WWII) in the world and Putin really is a great guy (not to mention his KGB past) I truly doubt that you have been able to form an own opinion. Don't get me wrong, it is absolutely normal to have thoughts and opinions which are the same as your parents on that age, and you will form an own opinion when you get older (or stay with the same although that is rare when you are open to other viewpoints). I personally like many Russian things like I find the Russian National Anthem one of the (if not THE) greatest in the world, love the Russian Fail- and Car Crash movies on Youtube and even have a Rebel Grot army of Russian based miniatures, but I also see the wrongs they did and still do. It is just your pink coloured glasses (dangerous thing to wear in Russia btw, luckily not in Holland ), that really cloud your judgement of the politics of that same Russia you defend with everything you got. If you would've been be older, I would have thought you were the personal designated spokesperson of Putin himself Not to sound harsh or anything, it is just that your replies sweet-talking many actions of rebels and (especially) Russia kinda gets annoying as you don't seem to be open for other people's views. Any criticism of Russia you counter as you did in reply to SlaveToDorkness' new name for Russia in not a very constructive way. I am amazed at your English writing skills on your age though!
Da, I am Russian. From Sevastopol', Crimea no less, so my loyalty should indeed be quite evident If you read back through the thread, you may notice however that I may be zealously defending the glorious Motherland , but not blindly so, as I have given criticism of Russia on a few occasions. I am pretty critical of Russian politics at several points (the whole gay-propaganda thing, which got a lot of attention in the Netherlands, to the amazement of many Russians, is one of those things), though most of them are not relevant to this thread. I am only a half Westernised Russian though (my mother is Dutch), so if you already think me to be a nationalist, you must not have met many full Russians. In general, Putin is about tied with Jesus and God for 'most worshipped deity' in Russia. For good reasons though. Putin has done more good things for Russia than almost any other leader in Russian history, and I have never seen a leader pursue the interests of his people as fiercely as he does. I think Dutch leaders could actually learn a lot from Putin at that point. My can write good English because I lived in the UK for a while, as well as thanks to an absolutely awesome English teacher. My English speaking however... I sound like this guy Thanks for the compliment btw
In any case, I may come across as not being very open to your opinions, but please keep in mind you come across in the same way to me. I've only been living in the Netherlands for 3 years, and I have already encountered a staggering amount of racism and discrimination towards Russians (In fact, last year with that outrage over Russia's 'anti-gay' laws, I was almost beaten by two guys up just for being Russian. The anti-Russian atmosphere was really quite frightening). As for 'sweet-talking' Russia and the seperatists' actions, that may be, but they have good (imo) reasons for the way they act, reasons that are not always understood in the West, and I am merely trying to state and explain those reasons. Also, I would not call SlaveToDorkness' remark a criticism. It was nothing more than a thoughtless insult, altough I know I should not have let him drag me down to his level. And a question, why do you call me out on my 'unconstructive remarks', but not SlaveToDorkness? It is very telling of the Western russophobia imo.
Low_K wrote: Back to topic; You are posting an article which is hardly independent (as are most news stations though) as a few reporters even quit not wanting to be Putin's personal propaganda trumpet. I can recall that the first group of OVSE people on the site were harassed and sent away by the rebels on-site. I don't know what the Dutch Foreign Minister is doing back in Holland, as he was dispatched to the Ukraine, only to return without any progress, and don't know who made him turn back or that he found the situation too dangerous. The stance of the Dutch is very weak, but we are a small country and cannot just invade Eastern Ukraine and start securing the site, killing all who oppose us (although some action should be taken a a long time ago).
The reason the experts aren't there yet is that the situation is very fragile. The seperatists on-site are probably some rogue band of criminals without any overall command whatsoever (as they didn't strike me as very organised) and are difficult to give commands by anyone. I guess the news that the rebels await the experts is that they got rid of any evidence and are now willing to release the site. It is known that the black boxes of the plane are in their hands too and I truly hope they give it to the experts. The main thing is closure for the relatives and people close to the victims, and that starts by returning the bodies for proper burial. The guilt question and getting the people who did it comes way after that.
I am aware RT is not independent, which is why I said you should judge for yourself what you think about the article and the reasons stated in there. OVSE people are not international plane crash experts, they are not independent and they are not trusted by the seperatists. That is why they were harrased and send away. I actually thought the stance of the Dutch has been very reasonable so far. After all, people often seem to forget that the area is a full warzone and that the local people there have other things to worry about than researching some unfortunate plane crash (altough they are greatly upset over the death of so many innocents). It is all really unfortunate. I wonder though what kind of evidence the seperatists would have had to dispose of? It is not like you can tell from the bodies or black boxes who fired that missile. Personally, I hope there will be a cease-fire so that there will be time to properly care for the dead and set up an investigation.
Iron_Captain wrote: The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them.
The separatists don't trust the (western) organisations and think they're biased. ..Have you thought about the irony of this - that the (western) organisations might well be upset, because nearly 300 of their citizens have been killed? And that refusing access to the site is the most potent indication of guilt one could ask for?
Have a look at rt.com and have a look at some western sites. On the Western sites, you'll find that many people criticise, or don't trust, their own government. You'll also see the other side's version of events described; you'll also see health warnings attached to, say, the Ukrainian version of events.
How trustworthy do you think russia today is? Have you seen it attempt to describe or even pass on what Western sources have reported?
What about other news sources in russia that describe opposition parties' views, like Fox in the US (anti-Obama) or the Guardian in the UK (anti-Cameron)? Does the presence, or absence, of such news sources support the credibility of russia today and its ilk, do you think?
... local people there have other things to worry about than researching some unfortunate plane crash (altough they are greatly upset over the death of so many innocents). It is all really unfortunate.
Wait, what? The plane was intentionally shot down. It's unfortunate that they were murdered?
... local people there have other things to worry about than researching some unfortunate plane crash (altough they are greatly upset over the death of so many innocents). It is all really unfortunate.
Wait, what? The plane was intentionally shot down. It's unfortunate that they were murdered?
Wait what? The plane was intentionally shot down? Where did you get that information? So far, everything points to the plane being accidently shot down because the seperatists confused it with an Ukrainian AN-26 that was supposed to be in the same area. Such accident is extremely unfortunate indeed.
Iron_Captain wrote: The seperatists are very wary of international (read: Western) organisations, they suspect those organisations are biased and aiding the Ukrainians and thus don't trust them.
The separatists don't trust the (western) organisations and think they're biased. ..Have you thought about the irony of this - that the (western) organisations might well be upset, because nearly 300 of their citizens have been killed? And that refusing access to the site is the most potent indication of guilt one could ask for?
Have a look at rt.com and have a look at some western sites. On the Western sites, you'll find that many people criticise, or don't trust, their own government. You'll also see the other side's version of events described; you'll also see health warnings attached to, say, the Ukrainian version of events.
How trustworthy do you think russia today is? Have you seen it attempt to describe or even pass on what Western sources have reported?
What about other news sources in russia that describe opposition parties' views, like Fox in the US (anti-Obama) or the Guardian in the UK (anti-Cameron)? Does the presence, or absence, of such news sources support the credibility of russia today and its ilk, do you think?
I am getting tired of having to defend RT. Please attack the message, not the messenger. As to answer your question, RT is far from being trustworthy. It gets most of its funding from the Russian government, and thus most often says what the government wants it to say. That does not mean it can't be worthwile information however. A conflict always has multiple sides, and it is always good to read up on what both sides think of it. In Russia, there are plenty of news sources that are independent of the government or support a opposition party. But apart from RT (Putinist), Pravda.ru (Nationalist) and Moscow Times (Pro-Western), none of those are in English, which honestly shouldn't come as a surprise. As to answer your second question, I don't think the presence of such sources matters that much. They are different viewpoints existing alongside each other. People who believe in one of them are not going to start believing in another just because they read an article with a different opinion. They will just put it away as lies and slander. Of course, the presence of such alternative sources is of paramount importance to a democratic society. All (except fascist) viewpoints should be able to be expressed without (fear of) repression. In all, I think the presence of such alternative sources reinforces the credibility of RT and other government outlets, as it gives the impression that Russia is a democratic society. People might also become upset at differing viewpoints and as result become more resolute in supporting the government. If Putin and the FSB would be able to control the amount and content of 'alternative information' the average Russian receives (and they might be), they will actually be even better able to manipulate the people (or maybe I have just read too much 1984 here ).
And because I just can't seem to state it often enough: RT does not represent my personal opinion.
... local people there have other things to worry about than researching some unfortunate plane crash (altough they are greatly upset over the death of so many innocents). It is all really unfortunate.
Wait, what? The plane was intentionally shot down. It's unfortunate that they were murdered?
Wait what? The plane was intentionally shot down? Where did you get that information? So far, everything points to the plane being accidently shot down because the seperatists confused it with an Ukrainian AN-26 that was supposed to be in the same area. Such accident is extremely unfortunate indeed.
The terrorists intentionally locked on to and shot down a plane which was broadcasting itself as a commercial airliner. Unless you're suggesting they randomly fired missiles into the sky which just so happened to kill 300 people and rain body parts onto the surrounding area?
It was not an accident, it was an intentional attack. That they're too slowed to make sure they have the right target is no defence. Stupidity is not a defence for murder.
The terrorists intentionally locked on to and shot down a plane which was broadcasting itself as a commercial airliner. Unless you're suggesting they randomly fired missiles into the sky which just so happened to kill 300 people and rain body parts onto the surrounding area?
It was not an accident, it was an intentional attack. That they're too slowed to make sure they have the right target is no defence. Stupidity is not a defence for murder.
The question remains, partially at least... is whether the guys who fired the missile KNEW it was a commercial aircraft or not.... Do we know whether this particular AA gun system has a screen that shows transponder codes? If it does, did anyone on that system at that moment in time know what they were actually looking at other than "Hey, look! An Airplane!!!"
If you are shooting gak out of the sky without knowing what exactly it is, then you deliberately shot down that particular airplane irregardless of what kind it actually was.
d-usa wrote: If you are shooting gak out of the sky without knowing what exactly it is, then you deliberately shot down that particular airplane irregardless of what kind it actually was.
So the USS Vincennes consciously and intentionally shot down an airliner?
They both might have intentionally shot down their airliners, but it's not unheard of for airlines to be mistaken for fighter's If the worlds greatest navy can make that mistake, then surely it could happen to anyone.
d-usa wrote: If you are shooting gak out of the sky without knowing what exactly it is, then you deliberately shot down that particular airplane irregardless of what kind it actually was.
So the USS Vincennes consciously and intentionally shot down an airliner?
The list of feth-ups by the crew of the USS Vincennes is huge, so don't expect me to suddenly do a 180 and change my tune.
They both might have intentionally shot down their airliners, but it's not unheard of for airlines to be mistaken for fighter's If the worlds greatest navy can make that mistake, then surely it could happen to anyone.
It's bad enough when you mistake a plane for a fighter even though all your data is telling you the opposite of what you think you are seeing.
But you cannot even claim that you mistook a plane for something else if you are not even checking what you are shooting at in the first place.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: The question remains, partially at least... is whether the guys who fired the missile KNEW it was a commercial aircraft or not.... Do we know whether this particular AA gun system has a screen that shows transponder codes? If it does, did anyone on that system at that moment in time know what they were actually looking at other than "Hey, look! An Airplane!!!"
It's been a long time since I've had to study up on BUKs, but to the best of my knowledge, it's a transponder-aware system.
Whether the separatists would necessarily have known what they were looking at regardless, I dunno. Apparently half the dudes guarding the crash site are drunk all day, so, you know.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: The question remains, partially at least... is whether the guys who fired the missile KNEW it was a commercial aircraft or not.... Do we know whether this particular AA gun system has a screen that shows transponder codes? If it does, did anyone on that system at that moment in time know what they were actually looking at other than "Hey, look! An Airplane!!!"
It's been a long time since I've had to study up on BUKs, but to the best of my knowledge, it's a transponder-aware system.
Whether the separatists would necessarily have known what they were looking at regardless, I dunno.
My fancy knowledge (from Wikipedia and news article, so who really knows) is that the full setup (all 3? vehicles) allows fancy tracking, checking transponders, etc. But that apperantly you could fire with just the launch vehicle which has a basic "let's you track and aim but not know what you are actually tracking" setup.
That's just from what the internet taught me, so you would probably know a lot more than me.
That could well explain it, then. I forgot/never knew the launch vehicle could track and guide without the big-ass radar array and C&C trucks. Stands to reason it'd have a gakky little no-frills radar if so.
Can be one vehicle system instead of three. Each vehicle has a lone forward radar From Wiki description its a radar that scans 60 meters off the ground for 15 miles. The higher integration forms a Battery.
Radar overlap with vehicle system themselves or linked into another high power radar since the freaking missile has 81K range.
Tau Pathfinders Markerlight
Tau Seeker Missile per markerlight
Owning player selects which Seeker Missile fires on target.
Pretty much it in a nutshell
d-usa wrote: If you are shooting gak out of the sky without knowing what exactly it is, then you deliberately shot down that particular airplane irregardless of what kind it actually was.
So the USS Vincennes consciously and intentionally shot down an airliner?
They both might have intentionally shot down their airliners, but it's not unheard of for airlines to be mistaken for fighter's If the worlds greatest navy can make that mistake, then surely it could happen to anyone.
Why is whataboutism always the first line of defense when people are criticizing Russia? This is a logical fallacy and I wish people would stop doing it.
True but this sounds pretty close what quite a few of us are thinking
"My guess is the system's radar saw a return from a big 'cargo' plane flying at 30,000 feet or so and either automatically fired, or some aggressive, itchy operator fired, not wanting to miss an opportunity. It doesn't seem they chose to seek any additional data before pulling the trigger," Latiff said.
d-usa wrote: If you are shooting gak out of the sky without knowing what exactly it is, then you deliberately shot down that particular airplane irregardless of what kind it actually was.
So the USS Vincennes consciously and intentionally shot down an airliner?
They both might have intentionally shot down their airliners, but it's not unheard of for airlines to be mistaken for fighter's If the worlds greatest navy can make that mistake, then surely it could happen to anyone.
Why is whataboutism always the first line of defense when people are criticizing Russia? This is a logical fallacy and I wish people would stop doing it.
I just found it odd that instead of it possibly being an accident, by D-USA's if you shoot down a plane you must have done it intentionally. I was just pointing out that mistakes like this do happen and if the worlds greatest navy with all of their high technology can make the same mistake, than it's not much of a stretch that others with lesser equipment could also make the same mistake. It's a horrible tragedy, but that doesn't mean they set out to intentionally shoot down a passenger plane.
d-usa wrote: If you are shooting gak out of the sky without knowing what exactly it is, then you deliberately shot down that particular airplane irregardless of what kind it actually was.
So the USS Vincennes consciously and intentionally shot down an airliner?
They both might have intentionally shot down their airliners, but it's not unheard of for airlines to be mistaken for fighter's If the worlds greatest navy can make that mistake, then surely it could happen to anyone.
Why is whataboutism always the first line of defense when people are criticizing Russia? This is a logical fallacy and I wish people would stop doing it.
I just found it odd that instead of it possibly being an accident, by D-USA's if you shoot down a plane you must have done it intentionally. I was just pointing out that mistakes like this do happen and if the worlds greatest navy with all of their high technology can make the same mistake, than it's not much of a stretch that others with lesser equipment could also make the same mistake. It's a horrible tragedy, but that doesn't mean they set out to intentionally shoot down a passenger plane.
If you aim your rocket at something in the sky with no way of knowing what the hell you are aiming at, and you push the button to kill it without knowing what the hell you are going to kill, then you intentionally shot down whatever you were aiming at while now knowing what you were going to kill. .
There is no accident there. That's like saying that if I aim my gun at a group of 25 people and pull the trigger, then I accidentally killed somebody there and it's just a horrible accident because I didn't know who I was going to kill.
Why is whataboutism always the first line of defense when people are criticizing Russia? This is a logical fallacy and I wish people would stop doing it.
Mainly because there is no real defense, so they have to use that.
I don't know how it is with news magazines of other countries, but www.spiegel.de has lately found out that its comments sections for articles concering the Ukraine crisis in general are FLOODED with anti-western/pro-russian posts, which are largely copy-pasted from somewhere. Different accounts writing the same pre-constructed message word by word, four or five times, there seems to be some kind of organization behind it.
d-usa wrote: If you are shooting gak out of the sky without knowing what exactly it is, then you deliberately shot down that particular airplane irregardless of what kind it actually was.
So the USS Vincennes consciously and intentionally shot down an airliner?
They both might have intentionally shot down their airliners, but it's not unheard of for airlines to be mistaken for fighter's If the worlds greatest navy can make that mistake, then surely it could happen to anyone.
Why is whataboutism always the first line of defense when people are criticizing Russia? This is a logical fallacy and I wish people would stop doing it.
I just found it odd that instead of it possibly being an accident, by D-USA's if you shoot down a plane you must have done it intentionally. I was just pointing out that mistakes like this do happen and if the worlds greatest navy with all of their high technology can make the same mistake, than it's not much of a stretch that others with lesser equipment could also make the same mistake. It's a horrible tragedy, but that doesn't mean they set out to intentionally shoot down a passenger plane.
If you aim your rocket at something in the sky with no way of knowing what the hell you are aiming at, and you push the button to kill it without knowing what the hell you are going to kill, then you intentionally shot down whatever you were aiming at while now knowing what you were going to kill. .
There is no accident there. That's like saying that if I aim my gun at a group of 25 people and pull the trigger, then I accidentally killed somebody there and it's just a horrible accident because I didn't know who I was going to kill.
I get what you're saying and at least you're being consistent about it. I just think there's a difference between Murder 1, and Involuntary Manslaughter.
It's a war, they're trying to kill the bad guys, if you look like a bad guy you're at risk of being shot. It's what they do during wars, they kill each other and sometimes (quite often in palestine) innocent people get killed and they use such a nice nondescript term for it: collateral damage.
But you can't use the excuse of "we didn't know it was a passenger jet" if you didn't even check to see what it was before you shot it.
When you take a blind shot you take full responsibility for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Most tin-foil worthy conspiracy theory I have heard so far:
The CIA stole the airplane involved in Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 and have managed to hide it for months before moving it to Amsterdam. Then they loaded the plane up with dead bodies and flew it over Ukraine where they detonated a bomb after the pilot jumped to safety.
d-usa wrote: But you can't use the excuse of "we didn't know it was a passenger jet" if you didn't even check to see what it was before you shot it.
When you take a blind shot you take full responsibility for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Most tin-foil worthy conspiracy theory I have heard so far:
The CIA stole the airplane involved in Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 and have managed to hide it for months before moving it to Amsterdam. Then they loaded the plane up with dead bodies and flew it over Ukraine where they detonated a bomb after the pilot jumped to safety.
And the CIA agent was actually Putin, a KGB double spy president.
d-usa wrote: But you can't use the excuse of "we didn't know it was a passenger jet" if you didn't even check to see what it was before you shot it.
When you take a blind shot you take full responsibility for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Most tin-foil worthy conspiracy theory I have heard so far:
The CIA stole the airplane involved in Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 and have managed to hide it for months before moving it to Amsterdam. Then they loaded the plane up with dead bodies and flew it over Ukraine where they detonated a bomb after the pilot jumped to safety.
"It's the same airline guys, it MUST be true!" - "But..wouldn't the CIA re-paint the plane and use another airline because this would be too much of a coincidence?" - "Nah man, that's what everybody would be thinking, so they kept it this way! WAKE UP!"
I just found it odd that instead of it possibly being an accident, by D-USA's if you shoot down a plane you must have done it intentionally. I was just pointing out that mistakes like this do happen and if the worlds greatest navy with all of their high technology can make the same mistake, than it's not much of a stretch that others with lesser equipment could also make the same mistake. It's a horrible tragedy, but that doesn't mean they set out to intentionally shoot down a passenger plane.
They intentionally shot the plane down. Whether they have mistaken it for a military plane or not is another issue, but they did, indeed, shoot it down on purpose.
One thing to keep in mind: those aren't soldiers, they are terrorists / armed combattants. They aren't part of any army under the lead of any state (at least officially).
They are fully reponsible for the plane crash and they are to be held responsible for an single consequence this plane crash has.
Here's praying the artillery that started firing again today gets as many of them as possible.
d-usa wrote: From the little bit I have been reading about this it seems like it is a lot easier to track something and shot it than it is to actually try to figure out what it is you are shooting at. Any knowledge if there is any truth in that?
Absolutely true, if everyone's not playing correctly on both sides of the transponder.
A good (read: tragic) example is the F-15 shootdown of two Blackhawks in Iraq in 1994. Two F-15s start out patrolling the no-fly zone. Two MH-60s ferrying around UN inspectors or something enter it. The Blackhawks are squawking correctly on Mode 2, but squawking incorrectly on Mode 1. The F-15s eventually pick them up on radar, read them as Hinds instead of Blackhawks, and interrogate in Mode 1 (which returns a bad squawk) and Mode 4 (which does likewise), never interrogate Mode 2, and go, "Yep, definitely Hinds, AMRAAMs away." Made all the more improbable by the fact that the airspace was being controlled by Air Force AWACS who knew about both flights, were monitoring both, but just didn't put two and two together before the shooting started.
A bit more complex than that, the Blackhawk Pilots weren't operating on the TAOR freq, and after entering mountainous terrian they disappeared off the AWACS scopes, so everyone kind of just forgot about them assuming they had landed and they dropped the tags from their scopes, meaning that when they did pop back up again, squawking the wrong IFF codes and on the wrong frequency nobody thought to put two and two together that they were the Black Hawks known to be in the area.
When I was flying over Europe during the Kosovan conflict, all civil flights had been re-routed along alternative flight paths. Had the same thing happen over the middle east in the early 00's.
There were a lot of SAMs being fired up during that conflict by all sides, so that makes sense.
It's also somewhat a result of existing instabilities in the region that have existed since the breakup of the USSR.
Iron_Captain stopping to apologize for Russia? Not before Putin gets the world peace award
To be fair, Putin deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Obama did. At least Putin actually managed to stop the US from bombing Syria, destroying the Assad regime and allowing ISIS to take over the entire region. Wouldn't be the first time the US helped terrorists to get to power.
That is an EXCEPTIONALLY twisted way to look at it....
Canis wrote: The UN or NATO should (with permission from the Ukrainian Government) enter Ukraine & surround/secure the crash site to permit investigation & full recovery.
I'm sure with a sizeable deployment, the Pro-Russian Rebels & the Russians would have to seriously rethink.
(A fleet in the Black Sea would be very persuasive).
It could end the nonsense that should have been taken care of months ago, and prevent further escalation.
Jihadin wrote: Like over a week ago they supposedly captured a few system when the Sep's over ran a Ukraine base. Now Ukraine is saying none were captured........now we have "video" of a SA11 in plain sight No tarp, no cover, no time frame, no attempt to cover (again) the SA11 on a flat bed. Going down a road apparently heading into Russia. Russia is not that freaking dumb to have the evidence in plain freaking sight.
On the BBC news it said, the missile system was moved back into Russia at 1am, IE in the dark. That film did not to my mind look like nighttime. They can't all be right. I hate feeling that the media is trying to manipulate me. Brings to mind TNG, Worf saying to the klingons
"you must think us stupid to make your lies so transparent."
I find the claim to be similarly transparent, but to be fair, it is possible it moved back into Russia at 1am, and that the video we saw was taken earlier in the day. We didn't actually see the truck crossing the border in that vid afaik, just heading towards the border, they could have taken it to a staging area or something to hide out until nightfall or what have you. Not saying thats what they did, just saying that disjointed evidence doesn't mean bad evidence.
After the US has changed its name to Scheminghypocriticalmurderersia of course.
I can dig it. It's a bit on the long side and a bit hard to pronounce, but it'll do.
Its a fething WAR. The crash site is in Rebel territory. They posses the Black Box and the victims bodies. The morality of blocking the access of International organisations is irrelevant. They have the power here, so they're setting the terms.
The international organizations aren't their enemy, and its not like this is an uncommon occurrence, the Red Cross and other international organizations usually cross the front line to do their work without the need for a 'truce'.
But so are the fascists and nationalists who seized power in Kiev.
Someones bought into a lot of the propaganda nonsense coming out of Moscow, eh? (P.S. - Nationalist doesn't = evil, nor does it mean racist, genocidal, etc. etc. etc.)
I personally like many Russian things like I find the Russian National Anthem one of the (if not THE) greatest in the world, love the Russian Fail- and Car Crash movies on Youtube and even have a Rebel Grot army of Russian based miniatures, but I also see the wrongs they did and still do.
How could you not?
you may notice however that I may be zealously defending the glorious Motherland , but not blindly so
LOL
In general, Putin is about tied with Jesus and God for 'most worshipped deity' in Russia.
I've met a few Russians over the past year or so... this is definitely NOT the impression I got from them...
Wait what? The plane was intentionally shot down? Where did you get that information? So far, everything points to the plane being accidently shot down because the seperatists confused it with an Ukrainian AN-26 that was supposed to be in the same area. Such accident is extremely unfortunate indeed.
Lets not get confused, the plane was intentionally shot down, regardless of whether or not they thought it was a military or civilian aircraft. While it most likely it was not their intent to bring down a civilian aircraft, it WAS their intent to shoot down an aircraft.
So the USS Vincennes consciously and intentionally shot down an airliner?
They both might have intentionally shot down their airliners, but it's not unheard of for airlines to be mistaken for fighter's If the worlds greatest navy can make that mistake, then surely it could happen to anyone.
They intentionally shot down an aircraft which turned out to be an airliner, yes. Whether or not they intended to shoot at an airliner is a different story.
Also, interesting read, regarding what its like to operate a Buk SAM system.
Possible they launched at an escorting fighter and the missile instead locked the airliner? I find the source dubious, mind you, essentially the equivalent of a journalist who frequented dakka seeing Seaward or Jihadins posts on dakka and contacting them for their analysis of the situation without checking credentials.
Wait what? The plane was intentionally shot down? Where did you get that information? So far, everything points to the plane being accidently shot down because the seperatists confused it with an Ukrainian AN-26 that was supposed to be in the same area. Such accident is extremely unfortunate indeed.
Nice bullcrap you're telling there. So yeah shooting a plane down because you THINK it's a military plane without confirming whatsoever is NOT an accident. It IS an act of terrorism.
Wait what? The plane was intentionally shot down? Where did you get that information? So far, everything points to the plane being accidently shot down because the seperatists confused it with an Ukrainian AN-26 that was supposed to be in the same area. Such accident is extremely unfortunate indeed.
Nice bullcrap you're telling there. So yeah shooting a plane down because you THINK it's a military plane without confirming whatsoever is NOT an accident. It IS an act of terrorism.
You're being dishonest. .
Shooting at what you believe to be your enemy is a normal act of War. Not verifying the nature of the target to ensure that it is a hostile target and not a non-combatant/civilian is gross incompetence.
Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians - the aim is to kill civilians. You know, the sort of thing that Hamas does, or ISIS, when they detonate a car bomb on a crowded street full of civilians, or kidnap somebody and behead them over a live stream, or blindly fire rockets at a densely populated area.
By your logic, the US Navy are terrorists too. They've shot down an airliner or two over the years.
Think someone who was on the "trigger" got really excited to see the big white blip pop on the green screen in front of him(or her?) and smashed on the button. First time firer
U.S. and Ukrainian authorities continue to insist that Moscow-backed separatists were responsible for the tragedy, asserting that a BUK missile system was used to bring down the airliner. However, this was contradicted by Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema, who stated, “The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems.”
In a related development, audio experts who conducted a study into the authenticity of a recording released by Ukrainian authorities which implicated Russian-backed rebels as being responsible for the missile attack on MH17 concluded that the tape was fabricated.
Sigvatr wrote: Here's praying the artillery that started firing again today gets as many of them as possible.
Right, and a few dozen innocent civilians in the process.
Really, the hypocrisy, double standards and outright blood thirst of certain people in this thread is disgusting.
A plane full of Western civilians is mistaken for a military aircraft in a Warzone where the Ukrainian airforce is carrying out daily air strikes is shot down? "Thats outrageous! They're despicable terrorists, hunt them down and kill them all! Lets pray that artillery kills them all!"
Whereas the Ukrainian government kills dozens if not hundreds of people with inaccurate airstrikes? Barely a peep, unless its a call for more airstrikes and artillery.
Meanwhile in another thread, Israel is condemned for shooting back at Hamas.
U.S. and Ukrainian authorities continue to insist that Moscow-backed separatists were responsible for the tragedy, asserting that a BUK missile system was used to bring down the airliner. However, this was contradicted by Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema, who stated, “The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems.”
In a related development, audio experts who conducted a study into the authenticity of a recording released by Ukrainian authorities which implicated Russian-backed rebels as being responsible for the missile attack on MH17 concluded that the tape was fabricated.
Funnily, that video seems to be linked to Infowars and Alex Jones.
U.S. and Ukrainian authorities continue to insist that Moscow-backed separatists were responsible for the tragedy, asserting that a BUK missile system was used to bring down the airliner. However, this was contradicted by Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema, who stated, “The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems.”
In a related development, audio experts who conducted a study into the authenticity of a recording released by Ukrainian authorities which implicated Russian-backed rebels as being responsible for the missile attack on MH17 concluded that the tape was fabricated.
Christ.
IF thats all true, and our western governments know the truth (that the Ukraine military was responsible for MH17) but are covering it up so they can pin the blame on Russia and further their own agendas...my god. Our government leaders deserve to be shot if this is true.
1984 never even came close to reality - George Orwell would be shocked if he were alive today.
Still, that video is from Info Wars, a well known nest of crackpots and lunatics (Alex Jones), so a bucket of salt is required. Are there any credible sources which confirm this?
U.S. and Ukrainian authorities continue to insist that Moscow-backed separatists were responsible for the tragedy, asserting that a BUK missile system was used to bring down the airliner. However, this was contradicted by Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema, who stated, “The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems.”
In a related development, audio experts who conducted a study into the authenticity of a recording released by Ukrainian authorities which implicated Russian-backed rebels as being responsible for the missile attack on MH17 concluded that the tape was fabricated.
Christ.
IF thats all true, and our western governments know the truth (that the Ukraine military was responsible for MH17) but are covering it up so they can pin the blame on Russia and further their own agendas...my god. Our government leaders deserve to be shot if this is true.
1984 never even came close to reality - George Orwell would be shocked if he were alive today.
Still, that video is from Info Wars, a well known nest of crackpots and lunatics (Alex Jones), so a bucket of salt is required. Are there any credible sources which confirm this?
Also consider that the Ukrainian Prosecutor General apparently said "The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems." That does not rule out the terrorists acquiring a BUK system from another source.
I highly doubt that the US government, with it's spy satellites and intelligence gathering all over the world, would be anywhere near as supportive of the stance that the terrorists did it if they weren't 100% sure, just in case something like this happened. That kind of thing could destroy an election campaign as surely as killing Osama Bin-Laden can win one.
U.S. and Ukrainian authorities continue to insist that Moscow-backed separatists were responsible for the tragedy, asserting that a BUK missile system was used to bring down the airliner. However, this was contradicted by Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema, who stated, “The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems.”
In a related development, audio experts who conducted a study into the authenticity of a recording released by Ukrainian authorities which implicated Russian-backed rebels as being responsible for the missile attack on MH17 concluded that the tape was fabricated.
Christ.
IF thats all true, and our western governments know the truth (that the Ukraine military was responsible for MH17) but are covering it up so they can pin the blame on Russia and further their own agendas...my god. Our government leaders deserve to be shot if this is true.
1984 never even came close to reality - George Orwell would be shocked if he were alive today.
Still, that video is from Info Wars, a well known nest of crackpots and lunatics (Alex Jones), so a bucket of salt is required. Are there any credible sources which confirm this?
From prison planet live, on you tube. Although it seems Alex Jones is covering it as well.
To be fair, the military would have a bit of a reason to lie about the rebels having stolen a buk; if they admit that one of their own weapons was stolen and used to shoot down MH17, it doesn't exactly reflect well on them.
Also consider that the Ukrainian Prosecutor General apparently said "The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems." That does not rule out the terrorists acquiring a BUK system from another source.
I highly doubt that the US government, with it's spy satellites and intelligence gathering all over the world, would be anywhere near as supportive of the stance that the terrorists did it if they weren't 100% sure, just in case something like this happened. That kind of thing could destroy an election campaign as surely as killing Osama Bin-Laden can win one.
True but would the russians be stupid enough to lend the separatists an AA missile system,? Has the American gov said it was the separatists, or just circumstances indicate that it was them. Maybe they're choosing their words carefully.
U.S. and Ukrainian authorities continue to insist that Moscow-backed separatists were responsible for the tragedy, asserting that a BUK missile system was used to bring down the airliner. However, this was contradicted by Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema, who stated, “The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems.”
In a related development, audio experts who conducted a study into the authenticity of a recording released by Ukrainian authorities which implicated Russian-backed rebels as being responsible for the missile attack on MH17 concluded that the tape was fabricated.
Your source? I can make youtube videos that claim Obama is a Muslim, doesn't make it true.
U.S. and Ukrainian authorities continue to insist that Moscow-backed separatists were responsible for the tragedy, asserting that a BUK missile system was used to bring down the airliner. However, this was contradicted by Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema, who stated, “The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems.”
In a related development, audio experts who conducted a study into the authenticity of a recording released by Ukrainian authorities which implicated Russian-backed rebels as being responsible for the missile attack on MH17 concluded that the tape was fabricated.
Funnily, that video seems to be linked to Infowars and Alex Jones.
U.S. and Ukrainian authorities continue to insist that Moscow-backed separatists were responsible for the tragedy, asserting that a BUK missile system was used to bring down the airliner. However, this was contradicted by Ukraine’s Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema, who stated, “The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems.”
In a related development, audio experts who conducted a study into the authenticity of a recording released by Ukrainian authorities which implicated Russian-backed rebels as being responsible for the missile attack on MH17 concluded that the tape was fabricated.
Christ.
IF thats all true, and our western governments know the truth (that the Ukraine military was responsible for MH17) but are covering it up so they can pin the blame on Russia and further their own agendas...my god. Our government leaders deserve to be shot if this is true.
1984 never even came close to reality - George Orwell would be shocked if he were alive today.
Still, that video is from Info Wars, a well known nest of crackpots and lunatics (Alex Jones), so a bucket of salt is required. Are there any credible sources which confirm this?
From prison planet live, on you tube. Although it seems Alex Jones is covering it as well.
Sigvatr wrote: Here's praying the artillery that started firing again today gets as many of them as possible.
You are either trolling or a sad excuse for a human being, for wishing people dead like that. Do you know that most people killed by the artillery are innocent civilians, not combatants? Either way, most of your posts so far have been either offensive, rude, unconstructive or devoid of reason, sometimes all at the same time, so you are getting the honour of being the first person on my ignore list.
But so are the fascists and nationalists who seized power in Kiev.
Someones bought into a lot of the propaganda nonsense coming out of Moscow, eh? (P.S. - Nationalist doesn't = evil, nor does it mean racist, genocidal, etc. etc. etc.)
You can't deny there are fascist elements among those who seized power in Kiev. Svoboda was one of the main driving forces between the Maidan protests, they hold quite a lot of important positions now and they are as racist as can be. Just look at this agitprop poster from Svoboda: It says: "Remember, cursing makes you into a Moskal". Moskal is an offensive ethnic slur for Russians.
In general, Putin is about tied with Jesus and God for 'most worshipped deity' in Russia.
I've met a few Russians over the past year or so... this is definitely NOT the impression I got from them...
Never make the mistake of overgeneralisation. Russians are individuals. The fact that Putin is extremely popular in Russia does not mean every Russian likes Putin. There are plenty who dislike him, and Russians outside Russia are probably more likely to disapprove of Putin than those who never leave Russia. The fact is though that the Crimean Crisis has massively boosted Putin's slowly declining popularity up to something like 80%, which I don't think any other leader can boast of.
chaos0xomega wrote: Lets not get confused, the plane was intentionally shot down, regardless of whether or not they thought it was a military or civilian aircraft. While it most likely it was not their intent to bring down a civilian aircraft, it WAS their intent to shoot down an aircraft.
That is true. The shooting down of an aircraft was no accident. The fact that it was a civilian aircraft that was shot down however was an accident. I don't think the seperatists with their simple radar had any way to tell the difference between a military transport plane and a civilian airliner, and they had not expected any civilian aircraft to be in the area at all.
chaos0xomega wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and also there is this:
Possible they launched at an escorting fighter and the missile instead locked the airliner? I find the source dubious, mind you, essentially the equivalent of a journalist who frequented dakka seeing Seaward or Jihadins posts on dakka and contacting them for their analysis of the situation without checking credentials.
That could be possible, the Russians have been claiming to have detected a Ukrainian jet in the area pretty much since the day the airliner was shot down. This chart supposedly shows the flightpaths of aircraft in the area as detected by Russian radar:
But so are the fascists and nationalists who seized power in Kiev.
Someones bought into a lot of the propaganda nonsense coming out of Moscow, eh? (P.S. - Nationalist doesn't = evil, nor does it mean racist, genocidal, etc. etc. etc.)
You can't deny there are fascist elements among those who seized power in Kiev.
There's a fascist element in power in Moscow. Difference is it's being a lot more active in pushing forward policies than any one that exists in Kiev.
But so are the fascists and nationalists who seized power in Kiev.
Someones bought into a lot of the propaganda nonsense coming out of Moscow, eh? (P.S. - Nationalist doesn't = evil, nor does it mean racist, genocidal, etc. etc. etc.)
You can't deny there are fascist elements among those who seized power in Kiev.
There's a fascist element in power in Moscow. Difference is it's being a lot more active in pushing forward policies than any one that exists in Kiev.
I assume you mean Zhirinovsky and his Liberal Democratic party? Well, they are fascists for sure, barely any better than Svoboda or Pravy Sektor, but unlike those, they have little real influence in Russian policy despite being in parliament, because no other party really takes them seriously.
Soladrin wrote: Well, according to Kerry, the US has evidence of Russia delivering the missile system.
Ah, NU.nl, most reliable of all Dutch news sources At least nu.nl manages to be always pretty impartial, which is quite impressive. And they are fast with their news, which is also nice altough it goes at the cost of reliability (and grammar) at times. In any case, nothing wrong with nu.nl's reliabilty in this case
The Americans can claim whatever they want, but so far they have refused to share any of this supposed 'evidence' they have. So far, the only 'evidence' that was provided (that I know of at least) was a video that supposedly showed a missile launcher being transported back to Russia. That video is highly questionable however, not only because all it shows is a truck with missile launcher driving on a road, but also because the billboard on the video lists the adress of the car dealer as being in Krasnoarmeysk which at the time of the shootdown was in Ukrainian hands and which is quite far removed from the Russian border. It makes little sense for a Krasnoarmeysk car dealer to advertise near the Russian border.
But so are the fascists and nationalists who seized power in Kiev.
Someones bought into a lot of the propaganda nonsense coming out of Moscow, eh? (P.S. - Nationalist doesn't = evil, nor does it mean racist, genocidal, etc. etc. etc.)
You can't deny there are fascist elements among those who seized power in Kiev.
There's a fascist element in power in Moscow. Difference is it's being a lot more active in pushing forward policies than any one that exists in Kiev.
I assume you mean Zhirinovsky and his Liberal Democratic party? Well, they are fascists for sure, barely any better than Svoboda or Pravy Sektor, but unlike those, they have little real influence in Russian policy despite being in parliament, because no other party really takes them seriously.
More like the government that has sought to oppress and discriminate against minorities. So, Putin.
chaos0xomega wrote: The billboard need not be in Krasnoarmeysk however. I have billboards in my town for car dealerships that are 15-20 miles away...
15-20 miles, sure, but Krasnoarmeysk is about 170 km away from the nearest border crossing, 66 km away from Donetsk and over 120 km away from the crash site. It makes no sense to advertise for a car dealer over such distances.
But so are the fascists and nationalists who seized power in Kiev.
Someones bought into a lot of the propaganda nonsense coming out of Moscow, eh? (P.S. - Nationalist doesn't = evil, nor does it mean racist, genocidal, etc. etc. etc.)
You can't deny there are fascist elements among those who seized power in Kiev.
There's a fascist element in power in Moscow. Difference is it's being a lot more active in pushing forward policies than any one that exists in Kiev.
I assume you mean Zhirinovsky and his Liberal Democratic party?
Well, they are fascists for sure, barely any better than Svoboda or Pravy Sektor, but unlike those, they have little real influence in Russian policy despite being in parliament, because no other party really takes them seriously.
More like the government that has sought to oppress and discriminate against minorities. So, Putin.
In that case, you should probably look up the definition of "fascist".
Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation, and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.
I've been a member of this forum for years and I can honestly say this is the most embarrassingly thread DakkaDakka has ever hosted and that's saying a lot.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I've been a member of this forum for years and I can honestly say this is the most embarrassingly thread DakkaDakka has ever hosted and that's saying a lot.
Someone must have missed that thread about how us western types are racist for cosplaying anime characters
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I've been a member of this forum for years and I can honestly say this is the most embarrassingly thread DakkaDakka has ever hosted and that's saying a lot.
Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation, and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.
I would disagree with you, even based on this very limited definition of fascism:
-Veneration of the state. Far from present in Russia. Russians venerate their nation, but the state is as often mistrusted, mocked and loathed as it is admired and praised. Neither does the state try to get the people to venerate it. In the US, children are forced to salute the flag and make a pledge of allegiance. Now that is an example of state veneration you wouldn't find in Russia. The thing that comes closest to state veneration it is that some classrooms may have a portrait of either Lenin or the current president over the blackboard.
-Devotion to a strong leader A difficult one. While despite my earlier joke I would not call Russia's admiration for Putin a devotion yet, it is true that the Russians have always desired and looked towards strong leaders. Russia is a hard country with difficult people, it needs a strong leader to not descend into chaos. To me, that is not fascism.
-emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism Russia is a very chauvinistic country, but ultranationalistic tendencies are generally repressed and do not have any notable influence. There absolutely isn't an emphasis on it. Militarism is different, Russia has always been a very militaristic society. This is something that was born out of neccessity, as Russia, in its long history at the borders of Europe, has always been under threat from either the East or the West. This constant need for defence is something that has become part of and shaped the Russian national character. Again, I see it as different from the militarism you see in fascist states.
-Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation Putin seems to be an adherent of realpolitik. That is different from fascism. So far, Putin has employed remarkably little violence and war combined to other world leaders from past and present. Even Obama has waged more wars and employed more violence than Putin so far. And I would not call Obama a fascist.
and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations. Touché, but imperialism does not make fascism.
Overall, I would say that Putin's Russia is slightly authoritarian, nationalistic and imperialist, but not so radical as to be fascist.
Besides that, most Russians would get incredibly mad at being called fascist. The Soviet Union, of which Russia was the most important part, lost 22 million lives in the fight against fascism. With so much Russian blood spilled, most Russians consider it the sacred duty of their people to fight fascism in all its incarnations, no matter where it appears. Calling Russia fascist is a grave insult, for there are few nations that have suffered so much because of fascism.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I've been a member of this forum for years and I can honestly say this is the most embarrassingly thread DakkaDakka has ever hosted and that's saying a lot.
Someone must have missed that thread about how us western types are racist for cosplaying anime characters
Except that Russia itself during World War 2 was basically a fascist state.
Veneration of the State: For the Motherland etc.
Devotion to a strong leader: Cult of Stalin
Ultranationalism and Militarism: Yup.
Political Violence, War, Imperialism as a means of rejuvenation: Check, check and check.
Not an insult to the millions of Russians who died on the Eastern front. They did a huge service to the world.
It's just a shame that Stalin was in power when it happened and that he took World War 2 as an opportunity to annex pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe.
Veneration of the State: For the Motherland etc.
Devotion to a strong leader: Cult of Stalin
Ultranationalism and Militarism: Yup.
Political Violence, War, Imperialism as a means of rejuvenation: Check, check and check.
Not an insult to the millions of Russians who died on the Eastern front. They did a huge service to the world.
It's just a shame that Stalin was in power when it happened and that he took World War 2 as an opportunity to annex pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe.
It was a totalitarian state. Not a fascist state. And stalin was hated by some and feared by others. nobody was devoted to him, devoted to Russia maybe.
Gunning MH17 according done without U.S. help Russia
Flight MH17 was shot by separatists and is done without the help of Russia. That seems to make out details of U.S. intelligence, according to sources at the U.S. Government.
The sources in the U.S. government believe that the shooting down of the plane is an accident.
The U.S. does not know exactly who has been firing antiaircraft missile responsible. They do not suspect that Russia has something to do with it.
Tuesday was announced that the U.S. would release information on the cause of the disaster. But the services have no evidence'' technical'' released that the plane was hit by a so-called SA-11 missile, as was said earlier, that the missile was fired by pro-Russian separatists.
Russia would "have created conditions" for the shooting of the Boeing 777. Sources, however, said they did not know whether there were Russians present when the missile was launched. Or persons who have launched the rocket appropriately trained in Russia they did not say.
Supplying weaponry to the rebels by Russia still continues. According to the intelligence This involves, among other missiles and tanks.
google translate.
So maybe prison planet and alex jones maybe right Seems the us gov is backtracking.
Veneration of the State: For the Motherland etc.
Devotion to a strong leader: Cult of Stalin
Ultranationalism and Militarism: Yup.
Political Violence, War, Imperialism as a means of rejuvenation: Check, check and check.
Not an insult to the millions of Russians who died on the Eastern front. They did a huge service to the world.
It's just a shame that Stalin was in power when it happened and that he took World War 2 as an opportunity to annex pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe.
It was a totalitarian state. Not a fascist state. And stalin was hated by some and feared by others. nobody was devoted to him, devoted to Russia maybe.
Guess I completely imagined learning about this during history then
Veneration of the State: For the Motherland etc.
Devotion to a strong leader: Cult of Stalin
Ultranationalism and Militarism: Yup.
Political Violence, War, Imperialism as a means of rejuvenation: Check, check and check.
Not an insult to the millions of Russians who died on the Eastern front. They did a huge service to the world.
It's just a shame that Stalin was in power when it happened and that he took World War 2 as an opportunity to annex pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe.
It was a totalitarian state. Not a fascist state. And stalin was hated by some and feared by others. nobody was devoted to him, devoted to Russia maybe.
Guess I completely imagined learning about this during history then
Well considering he had most of the army top brass killed, and the propaganda merchants were in full swing. Who was there to speak against him.
Veneration of the State: For the Motherland etc.
Devotion to a strong leader: Cult of Stalin
Ultranationalism and Militarism: Yup.
Political Violence, War, Imperialism as a means of rejuvenation: Check, check and check.
Not an insult to the millions of Russians who died on the Eastern front. They did a huge service to the world.
It's just a shame that Stalin was in power when it happened and that he took World War 2 as an opportunity to annex pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe.
It was a totalitarian state. Not a fascist state. And stalin was hated by some and feared by others. nobody was devoted to him, devoted to Russia maybe.
Guess I completely imagined learning about this during history then
Hah, Stalin was definitely worshipped.
Many considered him to be some kind of god. When he finally died, the whole country was in shock, almost no one believed Stalin could actually die. During his funeral, many people were crushed to death, so did people rush to catch a glimpse of Stalin in his coffin. Stalin was feared, yes, but he was also greatly admired. His cult was so pervasive, it is still going strong even today.
Altough loki is also right to some degree, as Stalin was not so much worshipped as individual person, but more as a personification of the Soviet Union and Russian power.
Calling Russia fascist is probably about insulting and offensive to Russians as calling Israeli Jews Nazis...
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loki old fart wrote: Gunning MH17 according done without U.S. help Russia
Flight MH17 was shot by separatists and is done without the help of Russia. That seems to make out details of U.S. intelligence, according to sources at the U.S. Government.
The sources in the U.S. government believe that the shooting down of the plane is an accident.
The U.S. does not know exactly who has been firing antiaircraft missile responsible. They do not suspect that Russia has something to do with it.
Tuesday was announced that the U.S. would release information on the cause of the disaster. But the services have no evidence'' technical'' released that the plane was hit by a so-called SA-11 missile, as was said earlier, that the missile was fired by pro-Russian separatists.
Russia would "have created conditions" for the shooting of the Boeing 777. Sources, however, said they did not know whether there were Russians present when the missile was launched. Or persons who have launched the rocket appropriately trained in Russia they did not say.
Supplying weaponry to the rebels by Russia still continues. According to the intelligence This involves, among other missiles and tanks.
google translate.
So maybe prison planet and alex jones maybe right Seems the us gov is backtracking.
Might as well repeat my previous statement as its still relevant.
IF thats all true, and our western governments know the truth (that the Ukraine military was responsible for MH17) but are covering it up so they can pin the blame on Russia and further their own agendas...my god. Our government leaders deserve to be shot if this is true.
1984 never even came close to reality - George Orwell would be shocked if he were alive today.
Still, that video is from Info Wars, a well known nest of crackpots and lunatics (Alex Jones), so a bucket of salt is required. Are there any credible sources which confirm this?
This seems reminiscent of the Iraq War - Western governments (Britain, USA etc) relying on dodgy intelligence, misrepresenting that intelligence, outright lying, creating a bogeyman (Saddam / Putin) to manufacture a pretext for War or to justify their political agenda's (expansion of NATO and the EU).
Sigvatr wrote: Prime Minister Jazenjuk just declared his resign, new votes are going to be held.
Interesting move. Between fighting rebels in the east and the MH-17 incident, this makes one wonder...
Can't wait until the weekend, though, when the flight recorder data is fully deciphered. Potential for gak hitting the fan...rising.
He resigned because the coalition that had elected him dissolved so he didn't have the parliamentary majority that he needed to keep governing the country.
There is very little to support any conspiracy theories in this.
Jihadin wrote: Whoa. Shepard Smith saying Pentagon confirming that Russian military units are hitting Ukrainian military targets.
wut?
As in, units within Russia lobbing military strikes in Ukraine?
Artillery strikes. Seems to been happening for seven days now.
Anybody got a link.
The two fighter jets were downed near the village of Dmitrovka, in eastern Ukraine's Donetsk region, according to the Ukrainian Security Council.
“We [are looking] into the possibility of the missile, which downed the planes, having been launched from the territory of Russia. That’s one of the theories,” a spokesman for the council, Andrey Lysenko, said.
The theory is based on an assumption by the Ukrainian military that anti-Kiev forces in Donetsk and Lugansk do not possess the type of military equipment needed for shooting down the Su-25s.
“Missiles launched from manpads don’t reach such altitudes,” Lysenko said. “The planes have been shot down at the height of 5,200 meters. Only more powerful missile launchers are capable of doing that...[The planes] were downed professionally, the terrorists don’t have such experts.”
Meanwhile, self-defense forces in Ukraine have claimed they downed the jets. In fact, it was they who first broke the news.
“Near Saur-Mogila, a Ukrainian fighter jet was shot down,” the minister of defense of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Strelkov, said, as quoted by Novorossiya website. “The pilot ejected himself. One more plane could have been damaged.” So how did they shoot down a airliner,? If they don't have the experts?
Jihadin wrote: Whoa. Shepard Smith saying Pentagon confirming that Russian military units are hitting Ukrainian military targets.
wut?
As in, units within Russia lobbing military strikes in Ukraine?
Artillery strikes. Seems to been happening for seven days now.
Anybody got a link.
Happening real time. News just broke.
They cannot confirm if its actual russian units firing or Sep's firing.. No caliber of artillery being mention but figure 155mm. Dept of State though says they have "proof" its Russian. If so then they have a MilSat in play. More likely the Russian units are "Shooting and Scooting" after execution of a "fire mission"
Jihadin wrote: Whoa. Shepard Smith saying Pentagon confirming that Russian military units are hitting Ukrainian military targets.
wut?
As in, units within Russia lobbing military strikes in Ukraine?
Artillery strikes. Seems to been happening for seven days now.
Anybody got a link.
Happening real time. News just broke.
They cannot confirm if its actual russian units firing or Sep's firing.. No caliber of artillery being mention but figure 155mm. Dept of State though says they have "proof" its Russian. If so then they have a MilSat in play. More likely the Russian units are "Shooting and Scooting" after execution of a "fire mission"
Edit
Shepard Smith time block on Fox News
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Ketara wrote: I cant find that on Reuters or BBC. Even on Fox News, they're not claiming Russia did it. Sauce?
SU25. Two of them Were in support of ground operations. ManPads got them. One pilot dead the other E&Eing
EDIT: Though now not letting me access it to copy the article :/
Basically, in an interview with Reuters one of the leaders of the separatist factions said that one of the groups had a BUK system and that it was most likely shipped back to Russia. He then went on Russian tv and said Reuters twisted his words. Reuters then released the audio recording of the interview and now the leader is saying its been doctored.
EDIT again: Got it. The link may not work but if you google "separatists own BUK" it should come up.
One of the leaders of the pro-Russian separatists admitted on Wednesday that a rebel group did have the anti-aircraft missiles that the US believes were used to shoot down Flight MH17 and suggested that the missiles have since been sent back to Russia.
In comments that came close to an admission of guilt, Alexander Khodakovsky also said that the Ukrainian government had “provoked” the crash because it flew fighter jets near to the missile system.
Asked about responsibility for the MH17 plane crash, he said: “The question is this: Ukraine received timely evidence that the volunteers have this technology.” He added: “It [Ukraine] not only did nothing to protect security, but provoked the use of this type of weapon against a plane that was flying with peaceful civilians.”
In an with Reuters, Mr Khodakovsky, who leads a group known as the Vostok Battalion, said that another section of pro-Russian rebels were in **possession last week of the Buk missile system. “I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence,” he was quoted as saying.
Mr Khodakovsky later said he had been misinterpreted and misquoted by Reuters. After the agency released audio of the interview which bore out its report, the rebel leader told Russian television the recording had been “doctored”.
Mr Khodakovsky’s comments come after Ukraine said two of its ground attack planes shot down on Wednesday in the east of the country not far from where Flight MH17 was downed may have been hit by missiles fired from within Russian territory. Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the Ukrainian National Security Council, said two Su-25s had crashed near Saur-Mogila after being shot down at a height of more than 5,000m.
“They were not downed by terrorists,” said Mr Lysenko, using the term the Kiev government uses for pro-Russian separatists. “According to our preliminary information it was done from across the border.”
Russia on Thursday denied the claim. The Interfax news agency quoted an unnamed defence ministry official as saying: “In an attempt to mislead the public, to distract attention from the Malaysian Boeing 777 catastrophe, the fantasies of Kiev’s authorities deserve inclusion in the Red Book of military aphorisms.”
The allegation that the two ground attack aircraft may have been brought down by Russian missiles is similar to those made by the Ukrainians about two other military planes it lost last week to anti-aircraft fire before the shooting down of MH17.
The Ukrainians alleged Russian forces were involved in shooting down a Ukrainian An-26 transport plane and another Su-25 last week before the Malaysian aircraft was downed over rebel-controlled territory.
In both cases Ukrainian officials said they did not believe the rebels had the technology to shoot down planes at the height at which they were flying. Russia denied any involvement. The US and Ukraine have said Malaysia Arlines’ Flight MH17 was brought down last week with a Russian Buk anti-aircraft system, probably supplied by Russia, but Moscow has blamed Ukraine for the incident.
The renewed allegations on Wednesday of Russian involvement came after earlier confirmation by the Ukrainian military that it had lost two of its ground attack aircraft, know by the Nato code name Frogfoot, close to a hill named Savur Mogila, in rebel-held territory south of Snizhne. This is the same area where Ukraine and the US officials have said the missile was fired that shot down MH17. The press centre for Ukraine’s so-called “antiterrorist operation” said pilots had both ejected after being hit by missiles from an anti-aircraft unit. It gave no information on what sort of missiles had been used.
Igor Strelkov, the rebel military commander, posted a video on his Russian social media page showing what he said were the remains of one of the two planes. A Facebook page for Ukraine’s “antiterrorist operation” said the two planes were among four that had been providing close air support for the Ukrainian army.
One woman interviewed outside the village of Rassypnoye said she saw a Ukrainian pilot eject from one downed jet and parachute to the ground. The woman, who gave her name as Janna, said once the pilot had landed he ran off in an apparent attempt to evade capture by pro-Russian militants.
Savur Mogila, scene of Wednesday’s incidents, is a strategically important hill that was the scene of fierce fighting between Soviet and Nazi troops during the second world war. It is the site of a war memorial and has also witnessed clashes in recent weeks between Ukrainian army and separatist forces.
the only stories about shelling russia are the ones from when ukraine was shelling russia or from their APCS that crossed into russian territory a while back
Read the same story this morning on welt.de. What's kept in mind is that the rebels aren't a state or any organized community, they are a bunch of armed civilians with alcohol and a blind love for oppressive governments. They are multiple sub-groups in their community and one member of one group talked a little too much.
Jihadin wrote: They're awaiting clarification from the Pentagon. Back on now
Edit
Commercial break..Roslend Gold commercial
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Within the hour
Watched it on you tube. Some of the comments are worth reading.
Sigvatr wrote: Read the same story this morning on welt.de. What's kept in mind is that the rebels aren't a state or any organized community, they are a bunch of armed civilians with alcohol and a blind love for oppressive governments. They are multiple sub-groups in their community and one member of one group talked a little too much.
Yeah we haven't got one but the other group might have one. Not much news really.
I really, really hope that they do not have any confirmation. If they do have, then Russia is bombing another country without even a trace of justification - which breaks so many international treaties and laws.
And the fan will be hit with bloody dia...you get the image.
Sigvatr wrote: I really, really hope that they do not have any confirmation. If they do have, then Russia is bombing another country without even a trace of justification - which breaks so many international treaties and laws.
And the fan will be hit with bloody dia...you get the image.
Ukraine fired or launched something that landed in Russia last week and killed someone. Maybe this is payback. I hope it's nothing more than that. The Russians said "There would be a price to pay".
Sigvatr wrote: I really, really hope that they do not have any confirmation. If they do have, then Russia is bombing another country without even a trace of justification - which breaks so many international treaties and laws.
And the fan will be hit with bloody dia...you get the image.
funny thats not what you were saying a few weeks ago when it was russia being shelled and having APC's with a foreign military in its borders.
US intelligence is the same source that gave us the WMD's in Iraq too.
either way, you are correct in that the s has hit the F
Im calling it now, we've passed the frans ferdinand moment,
call off the dancing bears on unicycles party and send the clowns home.
Sigvatr wrote: I really, really hope that they do not have any confirmation. If they do have, then Russia is bombing another country without even a trace of justification - which breaks so many international treaties and laws.
And the fan will be hit with bloody dia...you get the image.
funny thats not what you were saying a few weeks ago when it was russia being shelled and having APC's with a foreign military in its borders.
Huh? If I could press a button that would wipe out rebels at once, I would immediately press it without any hesitation. They are mere pawns on Putin's chess board and if they need to fall to weaken his iron grasp, then so it shall be. Not to mention that it's extremely likely that they killed almost 300 civilians. They are scum. I just call them "rebels" now because the flight recorder thingy was a good and fair move.
If Russia, however, should be involved and firing, that's a giant difference. It's a direct conceiled attack at another country without legitimation. They could talk themselves out of the military invasion of the Krim, but there's no way they can pull the same thing now. And I prefer Europe being at peace, despite Putin wishing the opposite.
Sigvatr wrote: Prime Minister Jazenjuk just declared his resign, new votes are going to be held.
Interesting move. Between fighting rebels in the east and the MH-17 incident, this makes one wonder...
Can't wait until the weekend, though, when the flight recorder data is fully deciphered. Potential for gak hitting the fan...rising.
He resigned because the coalition that had elected him dissolved so he didn't have the parliamentary majority that he needed to keep governing the country.
There is very little to support any conspiracy theories in this.
-Shrike- wrote: So their parliament operates in the same way as ours, just with physical violence instead of verbal sparring? Brilliant...
You can't really call what goes on in our parliament "verbal sparring".
Most of the time it's one side trying to make a point whilst the other side shouts mild heckles at them, whilst their own cheers and claps. At the end of the day neither side has actually bothered to listen to any points made and nothing changes.
Unless you're talking about the House of Lords in which case it's a handful of old people sleeping. Which probably actually gets more done and is more productive because, hey, at least they're all united in their sleeping.
-Shrike- wrote: So their parliament operates in the same way as ours, just with physical violence instead of verbal sparring? Brilliant...
You can't really call what goes on in our parliament "verbal sparring".
Most of the time it's one side trying to make a point whilst the other side shouts mild heckles at them, whilst their own cheers and claps. At the end of the day neither side has actually bothered to listen to any points made and nothing changes.
Unless you're talking about the House of Lords in which case it's a handful of old people sleeping. Which probably actually gets more done and is more productive because, hey, at least they're all united in their sleeping.
The only thing I'd add is that nobody actually knows what they're arguing about any more. All anyone knows is that The Opposition has a Plan, and because the Plan was made by The Opposition, why then, we must be opposed to it! Logic be damned, we can't accept that they might be right about something! Good grief, next thing you know we'd all be working together for the good of the public...
-Shrike- wrote: So their parliament operates in the same way as ours, just with physical violence instead of verbal sparring? Brilliant...
You can't really call what goes on in our parliament "verbal sparring".
Most of the time it's one side trying to make a point whilst the other side shouts mild heckles at them, whilst their own cheers and claps. At the end of the day neither side has actually bothered to listen to any points made and nothing changes.
Unless you're talking about the House of Lords in which case it's a handful of old people sleeping. Which probably actually gets more done and is more productive because, hey, at least they're all united in their sleeping.
The only thing I'd add is that nobody actually knows what they're arguing about any more. All anyone knows is that The Opposition has a Plan, and because the Plan was made by The Opposition, why then, we must be opposed to it! Logic be damned, we can't accept that they might be right about something! Good grief, next thing you know we'd all be working together for the good of the public...
Obama administration officials said Thursday that Russia is firing artillery from its own territory into Ukraine to hit Ukrainian military sites, pointing to escalating Russian involvement in the deadly conflict.
"This clearly is a military escalation," Pentagon spokesman Col. Steve Warren said, adding there is no question that Russian military -- as opposed to Russia-backed separatists -- are firing the shots.
State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf first made the accusation during a press briefing earlier Thursday. She also claimed Moscow is boosting its military shipments to pro-Russian separatists.
"We have new evidence that the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers to separatist forces in Ukraine and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russian to attack Ukrainian military positions," Harf told reporters.
She said the evidence derived from "human intelligence information" but declined to elaborate, saying it would compromise sources and methods of intelligence collection.
The Pentagon, though, confirmed her account, and said Russia has been firing artillery for several days now.
The allegations come amid an increasingly bitter war of words between Washington and Moscow over the crisis in Ukraine and conflicting claims over the downing of a Malaysian passenger jet over eastern Ukraine last week.
The U.S. repeatedly has accused Russia of stoking the Ukraine rebellion and has said it believes separatists shot down the Malaysian plane, killing nearly 300 people, with a Russian provided surface-to-air missile.
Harf said Wednesday the ultimate responsibility for the downing of the plane rests with Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Russian government.
Meanwhile, additional military aircraft carrying remains of victims from the Malaysian plane disaster arrived in the Netherlands on Thursday, while Australian and Dutch diplomats joined to promote a plan for a U.N. team to secure the crash site which has been controlled by pro-Russian rebels.
On Monday, the U.N. Security Council unanimously approved a resolution proposed by Australia demanding that rebels cooperate with an independent investigation and allow all remaining bodies to be recovered.
Russia has issued a threat to seize the assets of British companies including BP and Shell as a retaliation against David Cameron’s demand for tough sanctions.
In a mounting war of words, a senior diplomatic source claimed Moscow would “fight back” against any industry-wide EU sanctions by putting British companies working in Russia oil on the frontline.
“We want friendly relations. We will go along as far as we can. Then we will retaliate,” the figure said.
The official measures will include seizing the assets of British firms, adding: “BP and Shell have a lot of assets in Russia.”
The two firms have major partnerships with Russia energy firms Gazprom and Rosneft.
In March, senators loyal to Mr Putin proposed freezing the assets of European and American companies in Russia, in response to Western sanctions imposed on Kremlin figures responsible for the annexation of Crimea.
The regime has previously seized major companies belonging to Putin’s political enemies on trumped-up charges.
However, the sabre-rattling will surprise British industry, as Russia badly needs foreign investment in its creaking energy industry. More than half the state’s revenue comes from oil and gas and Putin is thought to be reluctant to turn off the taps to foreign customers.
Alexander Yakovenko, the Russian ambassador, yesterday distanced himself from the threat and insisted BP and other British firms would remain be “comfortable” in his country.
But in a combative press conference, he warned of a new economic collapse if Western sanctions went ahead, saying they “may well trigger the long-anticipated end-game of the present global crisis.”
He suggested the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was a conspiracy aimed at “framing up Russia that went terribly wrong”.
He also claimed the timing of a new inquiry into the death of ex-KGB spy Alexander Litvinenko is a “strange coincidence”.
He added Britain is the most “difficult” and “hostile” country in the EU towards Moscow during a lengthy complaint about Home Office visa fees for tourists and artists.
He accused William Hague, the former Foreign Secretary, of not showing “respect” towards British war veterans by staying away from a commemorative event at his embassy.
It came as ambassadors in Brussels discussed proposals to make the City of London bear the brunt of new “restrictive measures” aimed at cutting off Russia's banks economy from financing and key technologies.
The measures are a response to Russian continuing to let weapons and fighters cross its border into Ukraine.
Meeting in intense secrecy, the EU delegrates agreed a new “crony criteria” to target Russian oligarchs close to Vladimir Putin’s inner circle who are seen as “benefiting from” those politicians and generals responsible for a guerrilla war in Ukraine. Fifteen more individuals and 16 entities were added to an asset freeze and travel ban measures.
He wouldn't do it. The second he started seizing foreign assets, the sound of all foreign companies divesting themselves of all Russian holdings and money would be well nigh deafening (and would most likely send the Russian economy back to the dark ages). It shows that he feels he's being driven into a corner though, if he's threatening it.
Ketara wrote: He wouldn't do it. The second he started seizing foreign assets, the sound of all foreign companies divesting themselves of all Russian holdings and money would be well nigh deafening (and would most likely send the Russian economy back to the dark ages). It shows that he feels he's being driven into a corner though, if he's threatening it.
It's interesting that the West hasn't seized or even threatened to seize any Russian holdings in Europe and the US. They've merely frozen assets, to be returned when relations have improved. This is because seizing assets is a major step up, with massive consequences for financial stability and trade.
This says something about Putin's position, I think, in that he's skipped right past more moderate steps like sanctions, namely that Russia can't afford to stop trade on the one thing people care about - energy supplies in to Europe.
Correct. And if he's not even threatening to turn off the gas, but instead jumps to the biggest challenge he can give, it tells you that it's a bluff. If he was seriously considering action along those lines, he would have been willing to take the economic hit from turning off the gas (as it would be a lesser hit than seizing foreign holdings) as a first step. The twenty to ninety approach just indicates an attempt to intimidate Europe from any further action.
No, that's the only logic that works. The moderates and secular groups within the anti Assad movement were sidelined or destroyed as the conflict dragged on. The longer it did, the more extreme the opposition got, because that's the only way things like that progress.
So instead of Assad's head on a pole and a Syria divided between different groups but at least potentially able to govern itself, we still have Assad and a unified, strengthened extremist Islamic movement bolstered by popular support.
I guess Russia got what it wanted - Assad still in power, even if only technically. Shame they had to feth up the region even more to get it done.
The Netherlands is sending 40 MP's to help at the crash site. They will be unarmed and so far have not been allowed to use any form of violence.
They will be there to support the investigators etc.
It may just be me, but it kind of feels like putting out bait.
The Netherlands is sending 40 MP's to help at the crash site. They will be unarmed and so far have not been allowed to use any form of violence.
They will be there to support the investigators etc.
It may just be me, but it kind of feels like putting out bait.
Give them guns maybe they can stop this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or maybe they can explain things to this ukrainian soldier.
The Netherlands is sending 40 MP's to help at the crash site. They will be unarmed and so far have not been allowed to use any form of violence.
They will be there to support the investigators etc.
It may just be me, but it kind of feels like putting out bait.
That is so very... Dutch.
Altought to be fair, sending unarmed police is likely the most reasonable course of action. I wouldnt have given much for their lives if they had been armed.
The Obama administration on Sunday released overhead surveillance images it said were evidence that Russia has fired artillery rounds from its side of the border against Ukrainian military units.
The grainy photographs, taken between Wednesday and Saturday, are labeled as indicating fire from multiple rocket launchers inside Russia and targets they have struck inside Ukraine.
There was a show that has showcased the plumbing profession (I know it was on "Undercover Boss" once, and also Dirty Jobs probably more than once in different ways)
What are you expecting? The swimsuit issue's photographer incognito deep into the Russian border?
Seems legit.
Guess I was under the impression that American spy satellites are more advanced and provide better photos than that.
Note to self: stop watching 24.
Or they are, it's just that it's not in the interest of the US to reveal just how good their best stuff is. If they think the grainy photographs are good enough, they might not see a reason to reveal further images, if such exist, just yet.
Ketara wrote: He wouldn't do it. The second he started seizing foreign assets, the sound of all foreign companies divesting themselves of all Russian holdings and money would be well nigh deafening (and would most likely send the Russian economy back to the dark ages). It shows that he feels he's being driven into a corner though, if he's threatening it.
At the end of the day, which is more important to him, a good economy or Russian Empire II? Remember they are actively trading with China now. They are China's energy company.
Are the French still selling them aircraft carriers?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ketara wrote: Correct. And if he's not even threatening to turn off the gas, but instead jumps to the biggest challenge he can give, it tells you that it's a bluff. If he was seriously considering action along those lines, he would have been willing to take the economic hit from turning off the gas (as it would be a lesser hit than seizing foreign holdings) as a first step. The twenty to ninety approach just indicates an attempt to intimidate Europe from any further action.
of course the Europeans haven't quit buying gas either. Its a bluff on both sides.
If I were Poland I would be ramping up big time and trying to find nukes pronto. Same to same for the Baltic countries.
Team Frazzled likes the Russkies odds on this one. For Mother Russia!
Ketara wrote: He wouldn't do it. The second he started seizing foreign assets, the sound of all foreign companies divesting themselves of all Russian holdings and money would be well nigh deafening (and would most likely send the Russian economy back to the dark ages). It shows that he feels he's being driven into a corner though, if he's threatening it.
At the end of the day, which is more important to him, a good economy or Russian Empire II? Remember they are actively trading with China now. They are China's energy company.
UK at least would pay a price for heavier sanctions. We import about 90% of the coal we use from Russia, a good proportion of the gas too (although mostly from Norway I believe for the latter). And, fossil fuels are still the major energy producers - it will start getting expensive for us if things 'escalate' much beyond stopping Russian politicans from opening bank accounts.
Russia knows this too, they also have a lot to lose. Although, arguably less now than before thanks to their new deals with China.
This can be possible because Donbass at all is a region which is...this is not just depressive region you understand.
There is a huge complex of problems, the most important is that there a huge number of absolutely needless people.
Believe me, I'm fully aware to say this. For example when speaking only about Donetsk region, there are appropriately 4 million people. Around 1.5 million people are just needless and excessive.
What I want to say, is that we don't need to understand Donbass, we need to fully understand Ukrainian national interest, and Donbass must be used as a resource. So, as for understanding of Donbass, I think that...I don't have any recipe for what can be done quickly , but...the most important thing to do at the precise moment, no matter how cruel it will sound, there is a certain category of people who must be killed.
Feth me.
Apparently he thinks that 1.5 million people in the Donetsk region are superfluous to requirements and must be liquidated. And "Donbass is a resource".
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Its quite frightening that some people in government hold these sorts of views. The guys a bloodthirsty, raving lunatic.
Anyone know who he is? Does he have any real political power e.g. a government minister?
It was the governor of Kherson
The governor of Kherson is Yuri Odarchenko isn't it?
Edit:
This is apparently Bogdan Butkevich, a Ukrainian "journalist".
There's enough crap going around without trying to make gak up, thanks!
Edit 2: Apparently this is an edited video which is cut to make it look like he is suggesting the cleansing of 1.5 million people. Here is the full interview:
You can use Youtube translate options for captions.
And here is what the man himself said in the comments of that video:
I want to finally arrange the record straight in this crappy story with video editing my interview hromadske.tv .
1) Distributed by Russian Ukrainian propahandonamy and their yes-men video editing is false. I never suggested killing the residents of Donbass. Here's the original interview Bogdan Butkevych: the Slavic want to thank the wonderful Party of Regions - Redefine not be lazy. My words are blinded in the right way for rashkinskyh vylupkiv and now used as an ideological weapon. An important point - the interview was recorded on April 29. Feykovyy installation was at the end of June. But he began to unwind now that Russia has once again makes whipping up hysteria campaign Donbas - the people who work for the interests of the same Kremlin or "colleagues" tasty for personal PR by slander others.
2) As for the kill. I said that we must kill terrorists. Which is not perehovorozdatnymy and who took arms in their hands. And development has shown that this is the case, and thus is involved in the Ukrainian army in the East. The only thing I regret - not clearly arytkulyuvav whom it must be destroyed, and that made it possible katsapskiy scum distort my words. Speaking specifically about who exactly are these terrorists - it is direct Russian mercenaries and volunteers, as well as lyumpensko-bandit stratum Donbass, which became the main base for the Russian aggression. These words are ready to repeat many times - for terrorists have only one argument - the ball.
3) As for the extra people. When people redundant meant numerous workers unskilled labor, which brought mass at Donbass in the 1970s-1980s and who are accustomed to working life in the mines and factories mehaarhayichnyh that still exist only because of government support and system dohovornyakiv Donbass nomenclature of Kyiv. Like you we bashlyayete for the maintenance of all this junk and prefer feeding on the ground, and in return we guarantee at least some loyalty lumpen. This lyumpensko-oligarchic model is now hopelessly broken. In Ukraine no longer of 14-15 billion. annually to maintain nekonkurentnozdatnyh mines and infrastructure - and this is not only the mine but also, for example, universities that produce specialists Computing business, lots of companies that issue only sharpened by the equipment for mines, appropriate social infrastructure. I am sure that soon we will see the collapse of the Donbas economic system - and I've seen it dozens of dying and napivzakynutyh mining towns. Millions of people who can not do anything else and be around blaming Ukraine, vykydatymutsya outside. Do you think that Akhmetov ZVIAHILSKY, legal Enakievskaya or state will take care of them? However, a considerable number of these people do not want to do something else, even if they provide such an opportunity, because they are living in vtovkmachuvaly head of Mourne "heroic miners' work 'and' glory steelmakers." Think about what happens to these people after 80% of permanent closure of existing loss-making enterprises. Who they are not extra people? Not in terms of all the hype, and the economic and social terms. The question of what to do with these people will be very soon - especially given the very difficult economic situation. Just tomorrow. And if the question does not ask today, tomorrow we will get even worse revolt in Donbass - social rebellion, it is of local origin.
4) I absolutely do not regret that he said what he said. Yes, very sharp, politically incorrect, even brutal. But then I realized that we are on the verge of full-scale war. I cried about it as I could. When many of those who now moralizatorstvuye and throwing gak at me rejoice beeps Akhmetov, I expected shoot a "city". Used to call a spade a spade, even when someone does not like and sounded awful. Job is, you know? And do not tell me what I supposedly violate the unity of the country. Violate the unity of the country idiots who pereposchuyut outright fake - I am a real interview just said what he thinks about a considerable number of appropriate people in this country. I wrote a bunch of people from the East and in particular, are grateful for the bitter truth.
5) Most of all, I worry about the ease with which katsapnya zmanipulyuvala public opinion. To do this, it was so little - zvarhanenyy primitive assembly, and went to heat. A number of Ukrainian, even among those who consider themselves the intellectual elite, never learned to check the information and have no immunity against rashkovanskyh manipulation.
6) This interview (real) has nothing to do with publishing week in which I have the honor to work. This is my personal position, which was made entirely on my own.
7) Thank you very much to all people of good will and a sober mind, who understood the nature of this dirty provocation. What are trying to spread the truth and support me.
8) I absolutely FSUs what people think about me and my words in Russian channels and cotton in the broadest sense. They are - enemies, and enemies thought I was not interested. The only thing that worried - many zazombovanyh menshkantsiv East stverdyatsya only one in the entire criminal nonsense, which they throw on matskvy. Well, that's not what I wanted - but if even one person opens his eyes, will assume his task accomplished.
Make of this what you will.
To add, originally posted on facebook but since deleted, I viewed this using google cache:
Ukrainian journalist Bogdan Butkevich did not urge for killing 1,5 mln civilians in Donbas as recent Kremlin's propaganda sources present in the fake news.
LifeNews, Russian media company, cut pieces from an old Bogdan Butkevich's interview with gromadske.tv from April 29th and fabricated a forged interview in order to pass it off as a revelation of a bloody fascist. 24СМИ published an article "Ukrainian journalist suggested to kill 1.5mln extra people in Donbass" with counterfeit news and referring to another article by Вести: "Ukrainian journalist. Too many people live in Donbas, some of them just have to be killed." Kremlin propaganda sources and many FB users are happily spreading the bogus sensational news while the original gromadske,tv interview is readily available on youtube.com. It is easy to see how the fake news were fabricated; obvious when you are aware to watch for the cuts.
In the first part of his original interview, Butkevitch explained the situation with unemployment in Donbas region and mentioned that 1,5 mln people cannot find something to do. They are feeling like extras.
As for "appeals to the murder", the journalist was talking about terrorist leaders, those who abducted journalists, tortured and killed civilians, who photographed the corpses of our soldiers. Words were pulled out of the context in which he spoke about the militants, criminals with guns, bandits formations with whom Ukrainian government should not negotiate.
So, the first part of the original interview was about desperation of people in Donbas region from unemployment situation and second - about uncivilized cruelty of terrorists. LifeNews assembled a forged montage taking 1,5 mln excessive population out of context of the first part and the phrase referring to unacceptable negotiations with the terrorists from the second part. Then fabricated fake news.
But can you explain this to the victims of Russian propaganda?
The original gromadske.tv interview from April 29th:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCD4RS9LsTI
Trust me, you ain't in my dreams. But at the very least you've shown yourself to be completely untrustworthy and happy to peddle pathetic propaganda, so hopefully in future no-one will bother listening to you.
I mean, they shouldn't after the infowars crap, but this should cement that.
MrDwhitey wrote: Trust me, you ain't in my dreams. But at the very least you've shown yourself to be completely untrustworthy and happy to peddle pathetic propaganda, so hopefully in future no-one will bother listening to you.
I mean, they shouldn't after the infowars crap, but this should cement that.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well thank feth for that, its a relief to know that a Ukrainian governor is not the lunatic the video implied him to be.
The guy in this video is not the governor of Kherson, I don't know who he is.
The governor of Kherson is a lunatic however, just look up his infamous Victory Day speech in which he praises Hitler.
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MrDwhitey wrote: And hopefully you now realise not to trust anything loki links without researching it for yourself.*
His agenda is -very- biased and clear, and you don't want to be associating with that ilk if you want to be taken at all seriously.
*should be the case already after the infowars crap from several pages back
I am sorry Whitey, but you are hardly unbiased yourself
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well thank feth for that, its a relief to know that a Ukrainian governor is not the lunatic the video implied him to be.
The guy in this video is not the governor of Kherson, I don't know who he is.
The governor of Kherson is a lunatic however, just look up his infamous Victory Day speech in which he praises Hitler.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrDwhitey wrote: And hopefully you now realise not to trust anything loki links without researching it for yourself.*
His agenda is -very- biased and clear, and you don't want to be associating with that ilk if you want to be taken at all seriously.
*should be the case already after the infowars crap from several pages back
I am sorry Whitey, but you are hardly unbiased yourself
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well thank feth for that, its a relief to know that a Ukrainian governor is not the lunatic the video implied him to be.
The guy in this video is not the governor of Kherson, I don't know who he is.
The governor of Kherson is a lunatic however, just look up his infamous Victory Day speech in which he praises Hitler.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrDwhitey wrote: And hopefully you now realise not to trust anything loki links without researching it for yourself.*
His agenda is -very- biased and clear, and you don't want to be associating with that ilk if you want to be taken at all seriously.
*should be the case already after the infowars crap from several pages back
I am sorry Whitey, but you are hardly unbiased yourself
That's rich coming from you.
I know right? I love being a hypocrite
As for the guy in the video, he can excuse whatever he want, but what was said is what was said, and he did say there are 1.5 million 'undesirables' in Donbass that should be killed. No twisting of words there.
I am sorry Whitey, but you are hardly unbiased yourself
Of course I'm biased. Everyone alive is biased. I'm not trying to push a nutjob agenda with stuff so fake the bias is leaking onto everyone like ectoplasmic goop.
Frankly if I told you what I wanted, you wouldn't believe me.
For feths sake watch the full video where he did not fething say that at all, and notice the quite obvious cuts in the short video to make it look like he did. It's like you ignored the past bunch of posts, and then you come here and lay accusations of bias. It's amazing.
As for the governor's victory day speech, his mistake was mentioning anything that could be misinterpreted.
“We are remembering how people fought against aggressors who were trying to conquer our land. These aggressors motivated their actions not only by the desire and not so much by the desire to seize foreign territories and to enslave people. They also advanced slogans about alleged liberation of nations, peoples living on the land, which Hitler was going to capture. If you watch… read history materials, nowadays there are lots of TV programs about this, we can see that above all he advanced slogans of people liberation from the tyranny of Stalin (noise starts among the audience), liberation from other things. It was the primary motive for Hitler. An advance on the sovereign state, when he was trying to conquer territories. But the people willing to defend their homeland united. They stood together to defend their homeland, threw back the aggressor to the lands, and showed that people were able to win back and they would be winning back their territory. Nowadays the same thing is happening on the borders of Ukraine. Nowadays aggressor is standing there, where with the help of slogans about alleged removal… of alleged oppressions… they are trying to carry out aggression on the territory. My friends, we all stand for…”
It actually looks like he is condemning Putin for slogans of "liberating" the "Russians" in Crimea. Now if his comparison is apt or not, I'm not going to say because I don't know.
I am sorry Whitey, but you are hardly unbiased yourself
Of course I'm biased. Everyone alive is biased. I'm not trying to push a nutjob agenda with stuff so fake the bias is leaking onto everyone like ectoplasmic goop.
Frankly if I told you what I wanted, you wouldn't believe me.
For feths sake watch the full video where he did not fething say that at all, and notice the quite obvious cuts in the short video to make it look like he did. It's like you ignored the past bunch of posts, and then you come here and lay accusations of bias. It's amazing.
As for his victory day speech, his mistake was mentioning anything that could be misinterpreted.
I am stuck in the Slovenian mountains, I have better things to do than watch a 30 minute interview with some nutjob to see what exactly he said or not. It doesn't really matter, the existence of fascist and ultranationalist elements among the people currently in power in Kiev has already been thoroughly proven.
As to the governor of Kherson's Victory Day speech, he made a lot more mistakes than just making ambiguous statements.
"I have better things to do than see a video show I was wrong".
Fair enough. I'm not denying that Kiev itself has a problem, but we don't need bs like this made up crap being perpetuated by you or Loki to further cloud an already gak issue.
And yes, he made the mistake of pointing out Stalinist Russia was bad and comparing Nazi Germany's overtures of "liberation" with Russia and Crimea, whilst in front of a bunch of people waving hammer and sickle flags, who promptly booed him repeatedly and then took his microphones.
It's amazing how that event changes when you realise the context, isn't it? It's no longer "Governor praises hitler and woman with baby takes his microphone", it's "Governor compares the fake "liberator" spiel of Nazi Germany with the claims of liberation by Russia, whilst calling Stalin a tyrant, and is booed from the stage by people waving hammer and sickle flags".
Also, why the hell are you in the Slovenian mountains?
Edit: I'm also realising that you'd just laugh at my naiveté if you knew my agenda.
MrDwhitey wrote: "I have better things to do than see a video show I was wrong".
Fair enough.
And yes, he made the mistake of pointing out Stalinist Russia was bad, whilst in front of a bunch of people waving hammer and sickle flags, who promptly booed him repeatedly and then took his microphones.
It's amazing how that event changes when you realise the context, isn't it? It's no longer "Governor praises hitler and woman with baby takes his microphone", it's "Governor compares the fake "liberator" spiel of Nazi Germany with the claims of liberation by Russia, whilst calling Stalin a tyrant, and is booed from the stage by pro-communist protestors".
Maybe you should quote his entire speech? It was not so much a speech, but more of a rant against the evil Soviet Union/Russia and Stalin/Putin. And to be fair, he did in fact praise Hitler as a liberator of Ukraine from the communist yoke, the exact words can be interpreten two ways; Either Hitler or Stalin was the false liberator. Actually kinda clever of him, to phrase it like that.
Of course, his biggest mistake was slandering the Red Army on a day that is supposed to be all about praising the Red Army. Also, a governor should refrain from such statements.
Also, why the hell are you in the Slovenian mountains?
Edit: I'm also realising that you'd just laugh at my naiveté if you knew my agenda.
Because I couldn't get into Croatia. Border security is too tight and my ID card is invalid Not that I mind. Slovenia is awesome. I would stay here if I could, it was just that I had business being in Croatia. Anyways, I'll probably hang around Slovenia some more before heading back to those overcrowded below sea level flatlands that are called the Netherlands.
Also, you have a agenda?
Oooh, sounds mysterious, like you are secret agent or something. What is it?
He did not praise Hitler, he was basically saying that Hitler was a liar who used the front of "liberation" to invade and take, and was comparing this to Putin. The basic thing that has been lied/twisted/whatever is that he praised Hitler, he did not.
As for slandering the Red Army, where did he do that? I know he called Stalin a tyrant, all quotes of the speech I can find don't show slandering of the red army. Edit: I can actually see now re-reading some where this could be the case. Yes, he should not have called the Soviet troops out, he should've kept it to Governments.
"Business being in Croatia" now who is being mysterious.
MrDwhitey wrote: He did not praise Hitler, he was basically saying that Hitler was a liar who used the front of "liberation" to invade and take.
The basic thing that has been lied/twisted/whatever is that he praised Hitler, he did not.
As for slandering the Red Army, where did he do that? I know he called Stalin a tyrant.
At several points, I have limited Internet capabilities here, but you may be able to find a full translation of the speech somewhere. It really should be read in Ukrainian though, a lot of the things people got angry about depend on the exact phrasing that can be interpreted both ways, as with the Stalin/Hitler thing. It was either Stalin or Hitler who was the false liberator in his speech, and a lot of people interpreted it like he was slandering Stalin and praising Hitler, probably because most of what he said bordered on that. It was a really cleverly designed speech. He could slander Stalin, the USSR, Putin and Russia all at once while deining it at the same time. Of course it is also possible that he genuinely aimed his speech at Hitler, but for some reason I doubt it.
Of course, this whole discussion is basically pointless. Both sides will only see their own truth anyways.
Whip that limited internet faster! You're certainly right though on the translations. I think a lot of nuances are being lost during the translation and you could be right that he fethed up big time with his speech. I've been watching a lot of Ukraine videos and stuff lately, and the translations are well.. sometimes amusing.
MrDwhitey wrote: He did not praise Hitler, he was basically saying that Hitler was a liar who used the front of "liberation" to invade and take, and was comparing this to Putin. The basic thing that has been lied/twisted/whatever is that he praised Hitler, he did not.
As for slandering the Red Army, where did he do that? I know he called Stalin a tyrant, all quotes of the speech I can find don't show slandering of the red army. Edit: I can actually see now re-reading some where this could be the case. Yes, he should not have called the Soviet troops out, he should've kept it to Governments.
"Business being in Croatia" now who is being mysterious.
Everyone has an agenda.
Some are just more ludicrous than others!
So what is yours?
For my part, I am actually glad I didnt get into Croatia. Zadar is like a drowned city now form what I've heard.
As for my business in Croatia, I have some friends there who I had hoped to meet. Now I have made new friends in Slovenia instead.
Ukraine crisis: BBC finds Russian aid trucks 'almost empty'
15 August 2014 Last updated at 15:08 BST
A convoy of Russian trucks carrying aid for eastern Ukraine has been opened up to journalists at the border.
The Ukrainian government had insisted that inspectors checked the trucks' cargo, amid fears that they could be carrying military supplies for the rebels - an accusation Russia has rejected.
The BBC's Steve Rosenberg noted that many of the trucks were "almost empty".
Dry run for the Trojan Horse?
Heh... EU officials telling Russia to knock it off:
#BREAKING EU ministers urge Russia to put 'immediate stop' to border hostilities
At least A thing? 
