Is the Psyker Battle Squad a must include anymore or can you leave them at home? Last year I always had the Psyker Battle Squad when the meta was more Orks with Nob bikers and Nobs in Battle Wagons and lootas but it seems Marines are now flavor of the month again and most Marines have a Librarian for a hood and Marines auto regroup or are Stubborn or Fearless making the Psyker Battle Squad much less effective.

they are a must include.
there are still some hard core units out there that even guard shooting can't be certain to crack right away. most of these are answered pretty effectively by a psyker battle squad. Even if their power works only half of the time (psychic hood) it's potentially so devastating that it's worth it.
AF

Not a must, I'd say, but still relatively good.

Far, far, far from a must. They're basically an ordnance piece you can get in your Elites slot, which is not something to be under estimated. However, any amount of psychic defense is going to shut them down, and any army that doesn't have psychic defense is Fearless.

Agreed, far from a must, but still a very nice buy. It is also the best elite choice, so if you are running low on other slots and have a comfortable amount of scoring units, then they will be a good choice.

IMO, they should be run with 6+1 guys, and then if you have pts left after making the rest of the list, add some more

They are good, BUT I wish that they would re-do the model range for these. For the points they are great just make sure you mount them in a transport!!

Illumini wrote:Agreed, far from a must, but still a very nice buy. It is also the best elite choice, so if you are running low on other slots and have a comfortable amount of scoring units, then they will be a good choice.

IMO, they should be run with 6+1 guys, and then if you have pts left after making the rest of the list, add some more

Heresy! Everyone knows Marbo is the best

I would say they're not a must have, but still a fairly good choice. A large blast is going to be useful, and if you're playing something non fearless, you can cackle manically.

alot of the baddest meanest most hard core threats to guard are non fearless and hard to down with weight of fire. nob bikerz thunderwolves blood angels assault marines etc. the psyker battle squad means that instead of having to eliminate the whole batch you just have to kill 1-3 of them. when they run away you can redirect your other weapons to more immediate threats. the psyker battle squad is better than just 1 more shooting attack, which those points would probably end up being spent on. They're a force multiplier.

I wouldnt be asking "do I absolutely have to take them." I would be asking "why wouldnt I take them?"
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just thought I'd speak up since I'm the only one who answered in the affirmative to OPs question

I also say neat, but not necessary. I've personally been tempted to include them, but haven't had really anything to tip the scales for me taking them.

As for the blast option, it's a leman russ, except with much worse armor, but with it taking up an elite slot. Likewise, it's like a hellhound with slightly worse armor and slightly more expensive, but not taking a FA slot. Maybe if I had these FULL, I'd consider it, but otherwise... meh?

As for the -LD option, it sounds so cool, but I can't really see it all that useful unless you put it in combination with stuff, which makes it really expensive. I mean, take a PBS in a chimera (to keep them safe) and a colossus, and you're basically being able to neutralize one unit a turn (and can daisy chain them to stay neutralized for the whole game if you daisy chain them). Likewise, you can combine it with a callidus. In any case you're talking about spending over 300 points. You're basically spending a deathstar number of points to stop a deathstar. This could be done better otherwise.

So they seem neat, but not really necessary, and not necessarily good, and can't do something I can't do otherwise. Basically, they're the same as a sentinel. I can feel the love, but I can't seem to ever justify actually putting them in my lists.

Ailoros

you said As for the -LD option, it sounds so cool, but I can't really see it all that useful unless you put it in combination with stuff, which makes it really expensive... In any case you're talking about spending over 300 points. You're basically spending a deathstar number of points to stop a deathstar. This could be done better otherwise.

if they make another squad run the guard player doesnt have to shoot them that turn. the unit was neutralized + the guard players weapons were freed up. it's better than killing them. the psychic choir acts as a force multiplier even when there is no death star to wipe. when there is it can really save your bacon.

AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Ailoros

you said As for the -LD option, it sounds so cool, but I can't really see it all that useful unless you put it in combination with stuff, which makes it really expensive... In any case you're talking about spending over 300 points. You're basically spending a deathstar number of points to stop a deathstar. This could be done better otherwise.

if they make another squad run the guard player doesnt have to shoot them that turn. the unit was neutralized + the guard players weapons were freed up. it's better than killing them. the psychic choir acts as a force multiplier even when there is no death star to wipe. when there is it can really save your bacon.

AF

How do you figure over 300 points? A max PBS is 110. Even with a chimera they're way under 200.

OP, they're not a "must have" but they're definitely worthwhile. I run a squad of 9 (overseer and 8 psykers) in a chimera as part of my standard list. Many's the game where I go first and cause enough wounds to an enemy unit close to their table edge and then Weaken Resolve them. And watch them run off the table. And I haven't found newer psychic hoods to be much of an issue, given their 24" range compared to the PBS 36" range.

Ailaros wrote: In any case you're talking about spending over 300 points. You're basically spending a deathstar number of points to stop a deathstar. This could be done better otherwise.

In most IG lists, you don't have to spend any extra pts to make the PBS effective. PBS needs long range firepower, and most IG lists include long range firepower for many reasons. The PBS enhances your long range firepower, and it is the best and cheapest way to handle deathstars. Hell, it was made to stop the dominance of nob bikers (and it did). Stopping deathstars can't actually be done better otherwise.

You really seem to underestimate the power of weaken resolve. It is not hard to force 25% casualities on one enemy unit, and then you can take that unit out of the fight for a turn/chase it off the board. It is useful against almost all armies and units. The blast option is nice so they are not useless against fearless enemies.

I think you are seeing them too much in the light of your own list, where I agree that they don't fit. They do however fit very well in many other IG armies.

don_mondo wrote:How do you figure over 300 points? A max PBS is 110. Even with a chimera they're way under 200.

Read Ailaros' post- add the price of a Colossus or a Callidus assassin.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Ailoros

if they make another squad run the guard player doesnt have to shoot them that turn. the unit was neutralized + the guard players weapons were freed up. it's better than killing them. the psychic choir acts as a force multiplier even when there is no death star to wipe. when there is it can really save your bacon.

AF

Well you still have to shoot them first, to make them run... whilst its not hard to force 25% casualties on most squads, the dice gods/terminator armour/lack of LOS to bring your guns to bear means like isn't as easy as 1,2,3. However, it IS a fantastic combo against Deathstar's, and even if you don't face a deathstar, being able to force retreat on the squad you find the most threatening is powerful- as said, really really can save your bacon (my 10 CSM just arrived in the guard lines with meltaguns, bad dice rolls the first round of shooting means they both miss.....then their rhino went pop, reduced leadership, and goodbye squad T___T) . Also, as Illumini said, the blast option is nice- unless theres 7 or less psykers, that blast ignores marine FNP (BA, Plague-O's etc).


I think the general agreement is they aren't necessary, but they are a solid choice that work well with most of the codex.

Right. The thing is that the PBS is a force multiplier, but it is ONLY a multiplier: it can't be both good on its own and a multiplier in the same turn.

For example, a priest is a multiplier because he gives everyone rerolls. However, the priest also is able to use said rerolls to be DEATH INCARNATE to vehicles. Likewise Straken is good because he gives everyone furious charge. During any turn in which Straken gives furious charge, he is also giving furious charge to himself as he's playing super punch-out with a monstrous creature.

Meanwhile, PBS can weaken resolve, but, as mentioned you need something ELSE to actually cause enough damage to force a leadership test. You have to pay more because you need to spend points on the force that you want multiplied.

As such, a PBS would be a GREAT addition if you ALREADY had lots of units designed to force your opponents to make Ld checks. If you don't, however, you need to restructure your list around your support unit, instead of structuring your support around the core of your army.

That's why I never take them myself, but I could imagine building an army where they would be necessary to work right (like a artillery/mortar heavy list that threw out a lot of pinning checks a turn, for example).

Ailaros
you said: the PBS is a force multiplier, but it is ONLY a multiplier: it can't be both good on its own and a multiplier in the same turn.

Well I guess the psychic battle squad doesnt really need to be good on its own... if its surrounded by tanks and guardsmen who are just a stellar buy for what they cost vs their capabilities. So basically my answer is that you already are surrounded by units designed to make your opponent take leadership tests... leman russes guardsmen artillary etc. basically the whole guard army.

AF

Sure, if you're running a static gunline, then yeah, PBSs would be helpful.

Needless to say, this provides zero incentive for me to include them, as I actually like winning games.

meched up guard can't shoot?

Oh dear god Ailaros, don't let your mind be corrupted by the double standard ignore button pushing space wolves don't shoot Kroot suck bolters QQ there is only one way to play at that's my way AbaddonFidelis.

He runs SM/CSM last I heard, so I"m not sure if he even runs Guard.

As for his last post, seems like a lure, or more likely putting words in your post. I'd be careful getting too into your own opinons on the matter, it's like talking to a wall IMO, YMMV of course
__________
They are not on a 'need' basis, I will agree.
Their claim to fame as I recall it was for being a Hard Counter to the Nob Bikers which wer the fad at the time.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:they are a must include.
there are still some hard core units out there that even guard shooting can't be certain to crack right away. most of these are answered pretty effectively by a psyker battle squad. Even if their power works only half of the time (psychic hood) it's potentially so devastating that it's worth it.
AF

Not really. A lot of those units you want to "answer effectively" only give you a turn or two before they are rolling through your lines. PBS really need to be used in pairs if you really want to make Weaken Resolve even a semi-reliable part of your plan. Otherwise, a single squad is a good way to squeeze another large blast and AV12 hull into the list.


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Illumini wrote:I think you are seeing them too much in the light of your own list, where I agree that they don't fit. They do however fit very well in many other IG armies.

I think this cuts to the heart of the matter. Although I think at larger point values, even for Ailaros' crazy lists they could be quite useful. At that point his priest combat mobs are of respectable size (30+), you can throw Creed or Straken in for Furious Charge, and all of a sudden they are putting enough quality attacks out that a Weaken Resolve + bayonet charge = target unit broken and run off the board.

Terminus
why do you have to use them in pairs?

Because the first will fail its psychic test, or get cancelled with a hood, or get destroyed before it can do the job, so the second can pick up the slack. And if the first one succeeds, great, now you can wreck another target with the second.

What's that old adage? Take three things to get the job done, because one will get killed, one will miss, and the third will finally succeed. PBS are a bit too expensive for me to drop three of them, but two are still better than one.

It's just playing the odds.

ok I can see your reasoning. thanks.

I know PBS are force multipliers, but how many IG armies don't have at least some form of long range shooting?

Irdiumstern wrote:

Illumini wrote:Agreed, far from a must, but still a very nice buy. It is also the best elite choice, so if you are running low on other slots and have a comfortable amount of scoring units, then they will be a good choice.

IMO, they should be run with 6+1 guys, and then if you have pts left after making the rest of the list, add some more

Heresy! Everyone knows Marbo is the best

I would say they're not a must have, but still a fairly good choice. A large blast is going to be useful, and if you're playing something non fearless, you can cackle manically.

A large blast is going to be useful?
How many large blast do you already have in an IG army?
Hello Leman Russ ...

I think the PBS is a good choice. In a mech army, it can directly counter some things that might otherwise give you some trouble...like a big squad of scout bikes, terminators, or nob bikers.

Imagine a big squad of 10 man assault terminators. The pbs makes dealing with them ridiculously easy. Almost like an autowin.

I guess the thing is..the pbs isn't always good. There are a lot of times they don't do much. But they're cheap and absolutely golden in the situations where they are good.

The problem as well is that there really isn't anything that the PBS can do that isn't done elsewhere better. Want to get those assault marines off the board? Either hope they roll high with their fall back, and then try and juggle them off the board with a combination of 3D6" fall back and ATSKNF.

...or buy a basilisk and kill them all with a single shot...

The only thing that the PBS can do that others can't is make pinning actually useful, and trying to get a loltastic alpha strike when you opponent deploys too close to the board edge. However, there is a lot of stuff that's immune to pinning, or are otherwise fearless, and in any case your opponent still gets to make a regrouping check at full Ld at the beginning of their next turn, which means that you have to keep on doing it over and over (in which case, why not just kill it outright?).

Plus, once they start taking any casualties, they start sucking hard.

They're not terrible, but they're also something that your opponent can EASILY figure out how to stop, and then they'll be pretty useless (like, say, a deathstrike).

You can't rally if there is an enemy unit within 6". ATSKNF or not.

Ailaros wrote:The problem as well is that there really isn't anything that the PBS can do that isn't done elsewhere better. Want to get those assault marines off the board? Either hope they roll high with their fall back, and then try and juggle them off the board with a combination of 3D6" fall back and ATSKNF.

...or buy a basilisk and kill them all with a single shot...

The only thing that the PBS can do that others can't is make pinning actually useful, and trying to get a loltastic alpha strike when you opponent deploys too close to the board edge. However, there is a lot of stuff that's immune to pinning, or are otherwise fearless, and in any case your opponent still gets to make a regrouping check at full Ld at the beginning of their next turn, which means that you have to keep on doing it over and over (in which case, why not just kill it outright?).

How are you breaking those assault marines without weaken resolve? Even power blobs that can beat assault marines do so by attrition rather than winning combat and running them down (except in rare cases if you're using Furious Charge and maybe even a priest). And anyway, assault marines are not exactly the threat being discussed here. I'd like to see you "kill outright" a Seer Council. Pinning basically removes that unit as a threat for a turn, and gives you an extra turn to whittle them down. If you break them, you just run them down by keeping them from rallying.

They're not terrible, but they're also something that your opponent can EASILY figure out how to stop, and then they'll be pretty useless (like, say, a deathstrike).

How exactly are they "easily" stopped? They aren't a Land Raider, but they are harder to stop than say a squad of veterans or a CCS in a chimera. They have a 36" range and their abilities can be used on the move. Weaken Resolve is not a shooting attack, so it can be used even if the Chimera moved 12". A 48" threat range is not exactly "EASILY" stopped. Non-Ordo hoods are not as effective against them until they are right up in your face since you can easily move out of their influence. Runes of warding do suck, though.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:alot of the baddest meanest most hard core threats to guard are non fearless and hard to down with weight of fire. nob bikerz thunderwolves blood angels assault marines etc. the psyker battle squad means that instead of having to eliminate the whole batch you just have to kill 1-3 of them. when they run away you can redirect your other weapons to more immediate threats. the psyker battle squad is better than just 1 more shooting attack, which those points would probably end up being spent on. They're a force multiplier.

None of those things you named are very hard to take down with a bunch of s8+ fire battlecannons make nobz cry bloody tears of rage, blood angels assault marines ... are assault marines? if you mean with fnp ... well that wont help them agains things like ... a battlecannon! nice how versatile that thing can be. TWC are the most difficult of that list, but still far from impossible to kill.

Mabye its just me, but i can think of better things to spend 165 pts on (9x + chimera, without a chimera theyre dead or running off the board themselves turn 1 ...


Edit: Saw a question asking how they would stop the seer council with one shot ...

Well the guy is guard, so he has a daemonhunters inq with hood, so you just wait, turn 1-2 the fortune is going to fail, and they die that turn.

If a Seer Council is on the board, you aren't getting to use your powers. Passing a Ld9 test on 3D6 is tough, but then you roll a 12 and the Overseer executes several of them, dramatically reducing the potency of your powers even if you do cast them.

PBS is good.
Combine with Ordnance Barrage.
Pinning festival!!
Pinning is good. Because even marine cant come back from pinning.

Problem is Farseer. They do shut PBS.
Psi-Hood? Yeah....would be problem.....but use your tank or meltagan most librarian would die instantly....Oh you say they have squad? shoot em more & more!

They are good but not must.
Fill enough fire power. Enough troop. Then time to PBS.


Personally,I love PBS. They are "sad" psyker. One mistake,they die. So,They came warzone to die.
It fit my Inquisitor theme. Hmmm nice!

I really like the PBS. It's a very cool unit that is something that a lot of Guard units aren't; good in every situation. They're the ultimate counter to the 'deathstar' units and Weaken Resolve combined with...everything else in the Guard codex can lead to you quite easily shutting down a unit a turn.

as for a 'must have', I'd argue no. They're not something I would include in every single list, but when you reach the 1750+ pts level you NEED a way to counter those nob bikers/assault terminators with Lysander/Seer Councils, and keeping them pinned/falling back for the entire game is a great investment of 100-odd points.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: but when you reach the 1750+ pts level you NEED a way to counter those nob bikers/assault terminators with Lysander/Seer Councils, and keeping them pinned/falling back for the entire game is a great investment of 100-odd points.

L. Wrex

Not really ... Te counter to nob bikerz is battlecannons or any str8 shooting.
Lysander + termys? drop their land raider on turn 1 and ignore them for 4-5 turns if not the whole game.
Seer council? kill it the turn fortune doesnt go off from your inquisitors unlimited range psychic hood.

its 165 as i said, if you actually want to use them. thats a LRBT.

edit: not saying theyre terrible or anything, theyre just not that useful compared to other options guard have. Most of my guard lists dont even use a single elites choice (except the allied inquisitor) ... and when they do its marbo for fun.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:They're the ultimate counter to the 'deathstar' units and Weaken Resolve

Except any real deathstar unit is either fearless, or can chill out in vehicles or off the board for awhile.

Terminus wrote:How are you breaking those assault marines without weaken resolve?

You don't. You kill them. There are a lot of excellent firepower options available to the guard, not to mention other high power things in close combat.

Terminus wrote:How exactly are they "easily" stopped?

Null zone, turn 1 drop podding next to them, and killing them, psychic hoods, taking things to make them fearless or stubborn, pounding them with artillery, leaving your choice targets in transports or reserves, etc. etc.

Every army has ways of keeping their choicest units from disappearing off the board once a single morale check gets thrown there way.

It's a one-trick pony that relies on your opponent not knowing what's going on. Once they do, they counter, and a PBS can't counter-counter.

kill dem stunties wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: but when you reach the 1750+ pts level you NEED a way to counter those nob bikers/assault terminators with Lysander/Seer Councils, and keeping them pinned/falling back for the entire game is a great investment of 100-odd points.

L. Wrex

Not really ... Te counter to nob bikerz is battlecannons or any str8 shooting.
Lysander + termys? drop their land raider on turn 1 and ignore them for 4-5 turns if not the whole game.
Seer council? kill it the turn fortune doesnt go off from your inquisitors unlimited range psychic hood.

its 165 as i said, if you actually want to use them. thats a LRBT.

edit: not saying theyre terrible or anything, theyre just not that useful compared to other options guard have. Most of my guard lists dont even use a single elites choice (except the allied inquisitor) ... and when they do its marbo for fun.

See, this is one thing I dislike about people who play this game. Your under the constant assumption that everything wiill go right for you and your plan exactly when you want it to. That battlecannon may well scatter right off the biker unit, they may pass they cover saves, what is the actual likihood of metng that LR in Turn 1? BS4 DOES miss, and even if you succeed those Termis are now 6" + charge + consolidate closer to you. Why sacrifice a unit when I can reliably shut it down for the entire game?

Inquisitors's psychic hood is, and I'm going to call it now, cheesy. WAAC gamers still use them yes, but rumours have it that it should be remedied soon, and once it is, how do you propose we deal with Seer Council's now we've been denied our unlimited psychic hood? Relying on old-school loopholes to give your army an advantage does not a good gamer make.

Ailaros wrote:Except any real deathstar unit is either fearless, or can chill out in vehicles or off the board for awhile.

Errr, what? If they stay off the board, more power to me. It's a turn more that I can concentrate on killing the other 2/3rds of his army without the 'deathstar' to concern me. Having his major killy unit arriving in turn 2 or later is completely playing into my hands, allowing me to deal with the rest of his army with the majority of mine. And when it does arrive? I, if playing correctly, should *still* have that PBS around to shut it down. Win win? I think so.

What 'deathstar' is fearless? The few I can think of is either the Eldrad/Avatar or Death Company. One I wll try and outmanouver the whole game and the other I can simply try and kite.

Just because it doesn't suit your style of play is no reason to write off an entire unit. You have a knack of doing this in a lot of threads if I'm honest. If you want to play your Guard as a WW1 army with lots of infantry and artllery then be my guest, but don't be so close-minded as to write off choices that some people may be able to work, quite effectively, into their own lists.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:See, this is one thing I dislike about people who play this game. Your under the constant assumption that everything wiill go right for you and your plan exactly when you want it to.

You must really dislike yourself, then. You seem to be assuming that you'll always have LOS, and that your opponent will never pick them out if they're a serious threat, or that they'll always pass their psychic test, and that they'll never fail perils.

In a perfect situation, they can take your opponent's Ld by 10. But your opponent can do stuff to prevent exactly that. In non-perfect circumstances, they're not really all that great.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Errr, what? If they stay off the board, more power to me. It's a turn more that I can concentrate on killing the other 2/3rds of his army without the 'deathstar' to concern me. Having his major killy unit arriving in turn 2 or later is completely playing into my hands, allowing me to deal with the rest of his army with the majority of mine. And when it does arrive? I, if playing correctly, should *still* have that PBS around to shut it down. Win win? I think so.

Yes, they're staying off the board. No, you don't get to do anything to them before they show up and kill your stuff on their terms. This line of thinking would lead one to believe that drop pods WEAKEN marine armies.

Also, it doesn't matter how correctly you play if your opponent is throwing pie around or deepstrikes right next to them or outflanks them, etc. You're assuming that your opponent is utterly powerless to stop your PBS before you get a chance to throw lots of leadership-based carnage around.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Just because it doesn't suit your style of play is no reason to write off an entire unit. You have a knack of doing this in a lot of threads if I'm honest. If you want to play your Guard as a WW1 army with lots of infantry and artllery then be my guest, but don't be so close-minded as to write off choices that some people may be able to work, quite effectively, into their own lists.

L. Wrex

I'm getting pretty sick of this across all the IG threads as well.

Ailaros wrote:You must really dislike yourself, then. You seem to be assuming that you'll always have LOS, and that your opponent will never pick them out if they're a serious threat, or that they'll always pass their psychic test, and that they'll never fail perils.

In a perfect situation, they can take your opponent's Ld by 10. But your opponent can do stuff to prevent exactly that. In non-perfect circumstances, they're not really all that great.

Nope, I don't assume anything. We play on a board, with dice. A lot of 40k is subjective; Terrain, cover, LOS, movement, difficult terrain checks, chance. Taking a unit out of this subjective environment, viewing it in a vacuum and saying 'Yes' or 'No' is, quite frankly, wrong. If this was the case then every single Tyranid unit (that pretty much relies upon good synergy with the rest of the army) would suck horribly. I'm merely stating that saying 'Unit X is rubbish because I'll just do Action Y' is both uninformative and detractful from the discussion.

You highlight, perhaps unintentionally, one of the greatest strengths of 5th Ed Guard; that pretty much all of our units are a threat. If my opponent focuses on my PBS for fear of what it could potentially (key word there) do, then they are ignoring other threats that have a much more direct way of causing damage. PBS, much like Tyranids, only really shine when working in synergy with other units. Taken on their own, yes, they may suffer to live up to the hype. Couple them with Ratlings or any ordance gun ever, and they suddenly become a much more potent unit.

Ailaros wrote:Yes, they're staying off the board. No, you don't get to do anything to them before they show up and kill your stuff on their terms. This line of thinking would lead one to believe that drop pods WEAKEN marine armies.

Drop pods DO weaken Marine armies. Reserving everything and denying your opponent his alpha strike only to counter it with your own on Turn 2/3 is massive, to say nothing about Marines multiplying 'easy' KP by bringing Drop Pods.

Alilaros wrote:Also, it doesn't matter how correctly you play if your opponent is throwing pie around or deepstrikes right next to them or outflanks them, etc. You're assuming that your opponent is utterly powerless to stop your PBS before you get a chance to throw lots of leadership-based carnage around.

Not at all. Again, you misinterpret what I'm saying. See my previous point on the entire Guard army being a threat They can deepstrike their unit right next to my PBS Chimera. If they scatter; sucks to be them, if they hit and destroy it; fine, but now they're in range of my entire army, and knocking out a Chimera is a fair trade for my Demolisher remaning all good and healthy don't you think?

L. Wrex

Theres no assumption, its not hard to pop a land raider honestly.

A battlecannon was just an example of anti nob bikerz, more likely i would use my manticores and just wipe them off the map.

Whats irritating is people who play poor level opponents think theyre the best, and post snarky remarks saying ig cant kill a vehicle in a turn of shooting? lol.

So a group of drop podding combi-melta wielding sternguard landing beside your leman russes really makes them a lot weaker, right?

Also, to counter nob bikers and their pesky 4+ cover saves, take an eradicator leman. One of the only times I'd recommend it.

kill dem stunties wrote:Theres no assumption, its not hard to pop a land raider honestly.

A battlecannon was just an example of anti nob bikerz, more likely i would use my manticores and just wipe them off the map.

Whats irritating is people who play poor level opponents think theyre the best, and post snarky remarks saying ig cant kill a vehicle in a turn of shooting? lol.

I'm not saying its hard to pop a Land Raider. Conversely, I'm not making the assumption that its an easy feat to accomplish either, something that I think you are doing. Taking out a Raider requires pretty much the sacrifice of not only a Vet/CCS squad, but also its accompanying vehicle. Whether or not such a trade is worth it depends on far more factors than can be accurately discussed on a forum (intervening terrain and how many tests a Terminator squad would have to take should you destroy that Raider, for example). Again, simply saying 'X is not worth it because I'll do Y' does not cut it.

You have no prior knowledge of the quality of opponents I play nor am I lauding myself as the thinking '[I'm] the best'. Assuming either is a huge leap of presumption on your part, not mine. I'm merely trying to promote the qualities of a unit that I feel is being unfairly represented.

JSK-Fox wrote:So a group of drop podding combi-melta wielding sternguard landing beside your leman russes really makes them a lot weaker, right?

The arguement wasn't focussed on drop-podding melta Sterns vs Leman Russes; if was focussed upon drop-podding meltas vs a PBS in a Chimera. People are arguing that they will eliminate my PBS by drop-podding counter units next to it, to which I respond 'Fine, but I'll do my utmost to target that unit with the Russes that you envisioned as less of a threat, and thus passed on targetting, in my subsequent turn'.

JSK-Fox wrote:Also, to counter nob bikers and their pesky 4+ cover saves, take an eradicator leman. One of the only times I'd recommend it.

Yeeesh, that's almost paramout to list tailoring. Your Eradicator may only find its niche in one out of X number of games. My PBS wll always be useful, regardless of the opponent.

L. Wrex

Sir Motor wrote:PBS is good.
Combine with Ordnance Barrage.
Pinning festival!!
Pinning is good. Because even marine cant come back from pinning.

To help with pinning tests you need to use the psykers before the casualties take place, making it slightly trickier than using them to help with breaking. With marines there is a narrow margin where you're hitting hard enough to cause a pinning check but not hard enough to cause a morale check. Failing morale, which most marines can do on purpose, unpins the unit and then they regroup in their turn.

PBS are a great unit, if your list can make use of them. I feel they are like many units in the guard codex, very much YMMV. I win my games without them, but my list is mech and tanks, so they wouldn't help out to much, but this does not mean another list won't make them work. Not good or nessecary in every list, but very useful in a few of them.

JSK-Fox wrote:Also, to counter nob bikers and their pesky 4+ cover saves, take an eradicator leman. One of the only times I'd recommend it.

Funny how that works out. While it does deny cover saves it wounds on a 3+ and doesn't cause instant death. An ordinary battle cannon causes instant death on a 2+ but does allow cover saves. Battle cannon loses half its wounds to cover saves and then doubles what's left thanks to instant death. In the classic and highly amusing implementation of nob bikers this means that the Eradicator inflicts about the same number of unsaved wounds in the end but fails to kill anyone, meaning no morale check. If one of the nobs is a painboy then the battle cannon negates the FNP but the Eradicator doesn't. Russ wounds on 2+, grants 4+ cover and denies feel no pain vs Eradicator wounding on 3+, no cover, but allowing 4+ feel no pain. You actually end up paying more for a worse weapon.

Ailaros wrote:

Terminus wrote:How exactly are they "easily" stopped?

Null zone, turn 1 drop podding next to them, and killing them, psychic hoods, taking things to make them fearless or stubborn, pounding them with artillery, leaving your choice targets in transports or reserves, etc. etc.

Null zone? What? What does forcing re-rolls of invulnerable saves have to do with dealing with psykers? Anything drop podding next to them are at best going to take out their transport, unless you're dedicating multiple pods to deal with a single 155 point unit (plus mystics are still widely available). Psychic hoods (again) have to be right on top of you (<12" away) because you can easily outrange it otherwise. There are of course the equally widely available Ordo hoods, but that's why I recommend taking two units of psykers if you're going to take any at all. I don't see how "pounding them with artillery" is any different from any other unit we have available; if that's the measuring stick, everything sucks. Considering their "choice targets" are melee monsters, keeping them in their transport or in reserve accomplishes their goal without even having to roll dice. etc. etc.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
Just because it doesn't suit your style of play is no reason to write off an entire unit. You have a knack of doing this in a lot of threads if I'm honest. If you want to play your Guard as a WW1 army with lots of infantry and artllery then be my guest, but don't be so close-minded as to write off choices that some people may be able to work, quite effectively, into their own lists.

L. Wrex

Quoted for great emphasis and justice.

DarkHound wrote:If a Seer Council is on the board, you aren't getting to use your powers. Passing a Ld9 test on 3D6 is tough, but then you roll a 12 and the Overseer executes several of them, dramatically reducing the potency of your powers even if you do cast them.

This is why you take two, which gives you a 60% chance to get the power off.

kill dem stunties wrote:Not really ... Te counter to nob bikerz is battlecannons or any str8 shooting

Battle cannons kill maybe 1 nob biker a turn. Their bases are large enough that they can be spread out enough that a blast will only hit one or two, and then between wounding (1s happen) and a cover save, you're averaging about a wound.

Raxmei wrote:To help with pinning tests you need to use the psykers before the casualties take place, making it slightly trickier than using them to help with breaking. With marines there is a narrow margin where you're hitting hard enough to cause a pinning check but not hard enough to cause a morale check. Failing morale, which most marines can do on purpose, unpins the unit and then they regroup in their turn.

Breaking does open them up to being edged off the board without a chance to regroup, but otherwise you make a fair point.

For 165 you can get 1 leman russ. 1 leman russ will get 1 chance to shoot at turbo-boosting nob bikers when the bikers have a 3+ cover. Then the bikers assault something. Probably that very same leman russ.

Yes, guard can just shoot the nob-bikers dead, but that's comparing a complete guard army to a single unit. That's comparing apples to oranges.

I think another way of thinking about it, is that yes, it's situational and doesn't always work, but a PBS can cripple or destroy a deathstar with very few resources. All that shooting you're talking about can now be allocated somewhere else. Instead of requiring multiple shots and spending ENORMOUS effort wiping out nob bikers, you hit them with pbs, kill a couple models and escort them off the table. All it takes is one guardsman within 6" and they can't rally, period.

Nah, I think the easiest way to use PBS is to hit a unit with them and just tank shock. Your tank can still shoot after tank shocking too. Since you have to pass your morale test before you can death or glory, if you get the combo off it's a sure winner. And it's not hard to do with the plethora of guard tanks that are available.

OH, a unit that is pinned that falls back still can't move, shoot, or assault in their next turn. You only lose pinning if you get assaulted while you're pinned.

I would say the PBS is needed in a top level all comers list. If for no other reason than I don't think there is much else in the Guard army that can stop an 800-900pt Thunderwolf Deathstar. I'm talking about 2-3 Lords with 2+/ 3++ and 5 friends with 1-2 more 3++. Moving 6, fleet d6 and assaulting 12" = alot of dead guard. Weaken Resolve is the best way to counter that unit. If the Weaken Resolve even slows the unit down a turn or two until a Runic Priest gets into range would be worth it for the Guard.

scuddman wrote:For 165 you can get 1 leman russ. 1 leman russ will get 1 chance to shoot at turbo-boosting nob bikers when the bikers have a 3+ cover.

That's why i'd probably use my Hydras instead of a Russ for the Nob bikers. no 3+.

DarkHound wrote:, and any army that doesn't have psychic defense is Fearless.

I call BS! Tau have NO psychic defenses WHATSOEVER and have avg leadership. In fact Ethereals are the only way to get fearless in our army and you may only have one (as crisis commanders are 1+)

Having played a couple games against them, I would give them an 11.5 out of 10. Against my Crimson Fists they managed to make both my Librabrian + Assault Terminators and a Tactical Squad run off the board after taking a couple casualties. They are extremely cheap for what they can do.

The hydra flak tank is better because of volume, but not by much. The bikes can't get their 3+ cover, but the 4+ exhaust cover for ork bikes stick around. On top strength 7 doesn't instant death, so the bikers get feel no pain and can do wound allocation shennanigans.

JSK-Fox wrote:So a group of drop podding combi-melta wielding sternguard landing beside your leman russes really makes them a lot weaker, right?

Also, to counter nob bikers and their pesky 4+ cover saves, take an eradicator leman. One of the only times I'd recommend it.

Hmm? if you want them to die i guess .... mystics = lol @ drop pod armies.

alarmingrick wrote:

scuddman wrote:For 165 you can get 1 leman russ. 1 leman russ will get 1 chance to shoot at turbo-boosting nob bikers when the bikers have a 3+ cover.

That's why i'd probably use my Hydras instead of a Russ for the Nob bikers. no 3+.

Except they will still get their latent 4+ cover, as thats NOT ignored by AA rule.

Also whoever said only 1 biker per lb marker is kinda odd, i could see max 2, if theyre spread out in a horizontal line max coherency, but 1 is only a scatter to the far outside model ...

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Just because it doesn't suit your style of play is no reason to write off an entire unit. You have a knack of doing this in a lot of threads if I'm honest. If you want to play your Guard as a WW1 army with lots of infantry and artllery then be my guest, but don't be so close-minded as to write off choices that some people may be able to work, quite effectively, into their own lists.

Apart from being blatantly untrue, what does this have to do with PBSs?

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:You highlight, perhaps unintentionally, one of the greatest strengths of 5th Ed Guard; that pretty much all of our units are a threat.

Well, if all our units are threats, then I guess there's no real reason to talk about guard tactics or list building, now is there? Saying that lots of units in the guard codex is good does not mean any one unit is worth taking.

Lycaeus Wrex, sometimes, you just have to realize that you could be spending those points on a tank that could cripple a unit every turn, instead of maybe doing nothing, and perhaps even blowing their brains sky high! I'd take a Leman Russ Battle Tank, and then shoot down people. Your psyker battle squad tactic of causing a pinning test at ld 2 can result in significantly less casualties than blowing the unit sky high.

DarkHound wrote:Far, far, far from a must. They're basically an ordnance piece you can get in your Elites slot, which is not something to be under estimated. However, any amount of psychic defense is going to shut them down, and any army that doesn't have psychic defense is Fearless.

^ This.

They are quite situational with all the anti psychic defense and fearless armies running around now. I would rather spend the points on a unit I know will get it's points back.

Ailaros wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Just because it doesn't suit your style of play is no reason to write off an entire unit. You have a knack of doing this in a lot of threads if I'm honest. If you want to play your Guard as a WW1 army with lots of infantry and artllery then be my guest, but don't be so close-minded as to write off choices that some people may be able to work, quite effectively, into their own lists.

Apart from being blatantly untrue, what does this have to do with PBSs?

Sorry bud, but you do often have a "if it doesn't fit with my army, then its ok but there's much better choices- like mine!" attitude at times =\ from what i read in the thread, the general consensus is that the PBS is a solid choice that you can't go terribly wrong with, If you feel you have the points to fit them in, but not a "must-have" unit. Your posts sometimes raise points that i don't agree with, but they more often make me think about a tactic/unit/idea in a new light. But you do have a strong "My way or the highway" vibe in your posts mate

PBS are very good, but are NOT a must have for an IG army to win, as echoed by many posters on the list.

The reason I do not take them is because there WILL be armies out there that can shut them down. But at least the PBS is another viable option in the wonderful dex that is the 5th ed IG book.

Jihallah wrote:Sorry bud, but you do often have a "if it doesn't fit with my army, then its ok but there's much better choices- like mine!" attitude at times =\

I DON'T.

ONLY.

TELL.

PEOPLE.

TO PLAY.

MASSED.

INFANTRY.

Where is this very wrong impression coming from?

I don't see a reason to ever not take these guys. They're cheap, versatile, and can have a potentially devestating impact on your opponent's army.

If your opponent has a pschic hood on the board just shoot the librarian. You're playing guard you have the fire power. But even if the librarian was invincible.... you don't keep good units out of your army just because there's a possibility that your opponent will bring a model that has a possibility of stopping it. That's a fear based approach to the battle. Many armies have no psychic defense whatever.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:If your opponent has a pschic hood on the board just shoot the librarian. you don't keep good units out of your army just because there's a possibility that your opponent will bring a model that has a possibility of stopping it.

Very true.

That said, there's no reason to take something just because you can potentially counter your opponent's counter. This line of thinking quickly leads here.

If you are a competitive gamer then I think it's a good idea to play the what if game and take into consideration how well a particular unit will perform in your local meta. PSB are great for what they can do at the point cost but against certain armies they might not do much for you. Weaken Resolve is an uber power and can easily be a game winner sometimes but not all the time. Lots of competitive gamers take them however there plenty of good alternatives.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I don't see a reason to ever not take these guys. They're cheap, versatile, and can have a potentially devestating impact on your opponent's army.

If your opponent has a pschic hood on the board just shoot the librarian. You're playing guard you have the fire power. But even if the librarian was invincible.... you don't keep good units out of your army just because there's a possibility that your opponent will bring a model that has a possibility of stopping it. That's a fear based approach to the battle. Many armies have no psychic defense whatever.
AF

Wutz dat Buzzgit? Deres ferdy of us? Wez gonna neva surrenda to dose stupid humies!!!

Ailaros
It's not countering a specific thing you think your opponent might do. It's countering what you know to a certainty he will do - try to get into your lines. If he can't you're going to blow him away with shooting so he has to try. the PSB is just one more thing that prevents him from succeeding. Also because it's not a heavy support choice it lets you take extra blast templates without running vulnerable squadrons.
AF

Can someone please hit Abaddon for not listening? He can't hear me, but I need to point out how dumb that was.

Even if the enemy lacks psychic defense their power is still nullified by Mech or Fearless. For example, my CSM army has only a single model that isn't Fearless; my Ork army is entirely Fearless; my Imperial Guard is entirely Mech. In those cases you have to use their shooting attack, which is not cost effective. For as much as a Manticore you get a single Blast Template that might not have an AP value that matters and only a 75% chance of even getting to fire. Then of course you have to deal with that niggling (17%, or 1 in 6) chance that your Overseer will kill several of your Psychers, reducing the effectiveness of your powers.

The Psycher Battle Squad adds a pie plate from the Elites slot, which is only effective if you can't get it anywhere else. The other power they give is a tool with very limited application.

EDIT: Man the conversation moves fast.

Exactly.

Furthermore, the PBS is ONE MORE thing that prevents your opponent from doing what he wants. This does not make it the BEST or even a GOOD way to prevent your opponent from getting into your lines.

Plus, you don't even need to stop your opponent before he gets into your lines. If keeping your distance was the only way to win, you'd never see a victorious mechanized player. That you do sort of implies that getting close is better, or else mech lists wouldn't be nearly as popular (much less things like vendettas).

OK I think the psyker battle squad is a handy little thing with 1 job:

If the enemy has nob bikers, chase them off using a manticore and psykers in combination (the manticore because he has s10 ap4 shoots everywhere and denies fnp, instantkills the waaaghboss and has multiple hitting chances).

I have to admit that job is not really often needed, but the points are worth the possibility. Why? Because nob bikers kill every guard army easily.
The other job is rather special: chase Terminators or other atsknf-units off with escorting units.

I agree most armies are fearless, but not every army and the possibility to chase a damaged enemy unit relatively safe off the board is a nice option.

You dont need them, but I think they are a solid choice. Especially on tournaments where nob bikers are played some times.

Alairos
It's less expensive to neutralize an enemy unit by making it run away then it is to neutralize it by destroying it completely. PSB are extremely dangerous to deathstar units that can potentially survive alot of other kinds of guard shooting, freeing up other resources to take on other parts of the opponent's army.

I can't speak to your experience with mechanized guard armies. Maybe they can handle themselves up close. I haven't encountered any builds in my area that were more effectively handled at range than up close. That could be a result of the local meta idk.
AF

PSB are actually not a sure thing versus nob bikers. Sure you can hit them with indirect ordnance from the Manticore but on the other hand Lootas can do a quick number on the Manticore. If the nob bikers are hiding behind a couple of battle wagons and you lose your Manticore early on to lootas or Snikrot then good luck. Remember that you have to inflict enough wounds on the nob bikers to make Weaken Resolve work, that's around 12 wounds for a full squad.

Well normally the manticore is placed out of sight.

If the nob bikers are behind a wagon, perfect. go indirect for the wagon and wrap the template over some nob bikers too and go for it.
Due to cover saves you need average 6 wounds with manticore to kill 3 nob bikers, which is not sure in the first go, but together with other weaponry possible. The important thing is you dont need the other like 50 wounds to kill the whole squad before they open a tank each guy...

AbaddonFidelis wrote:It's less expensive to neutralize an enemy unit by making it run away then it is to neutralize it by destroying it completely.

Well, sort of...

I mean, if we're talking about a unit that is stubborn, fearless, out of LOS of the psykers, or are inside a transport, then there is no way that the PBS can neutralize them, not matter how many points you spend on the PBS. Having literally zero effectiveness is hard on a points:effectiveness ratio.

Secondly, the PBS can't make them run away on their own. This means you need to spend a lot more points in order to actually neutralize them (like, say, spending 160 more points to tack on a manticore). This doesn't make them "less expensive".

Of course, everything I just said has been mentioned repeatedly. Either it's not sinking in, or there is some way we need to explain this better for you to catch on.

Yes, if they're fearless or stubborn it's not as good. But they're still extremely dangerous to a broad category of targets and their blast template, while not outstanding, is useful even in those situations. The unit is inexpensive so it's just not that big of a deal if you don't get to use their weaken resolve power.

To your second point yes like we talked about they're a force multiplier. Their inclusion assumes the presence of the other elements of the army. But I don't mean expensive in the way you're talking about. I mean if you have 2000 points on the field and you have to choose targets for them, it's going to be less expensive, in terms of your resources for that turn, to cause a few wounds and get the psykers to make the target run away (300 points?), then it will be for you to completely demolish that unit(600 points?). Either way they're out of the fight so the PBS is the more efficient use of your actions for that turn.

To your third point I understand what you're saying. I just think you're wrong
AF

Stubborn doesn't work against pinning...

No unit is mandatory.
I use them extensively to great effect. YMMV, and it appears a number of people here simply do not understand how/when to properly use them.

ANY competitive guard build can use the PBS to good effect, it is just that they must be used in accordance with what you are running with them. Weaken resolve needs shooting to force the chosen unit to flee. Whether a static gunline ore mechvet alpha strike army, if you cannot reduce a threatening unit 25% in a round of shooting then you probably need to retool your list...

"EY!! GORBAD! Youz got da popkorn?"
"'Ell yah. Look at dis. Peephul iz gittin angry at eachother!"
"O'er wut?"
"Bloody Sykr battul squads or somfin."
"Well, wut do they do?"
"Nofin to us!"
Gorbad and Grotskragga look at eachother and laugh.

Orks - Making your childs channel (PBS) do nothing since 5th edition.

JSK-Fox wrote:"EY!! GORBAD! Youz got da popkorn?"
"'Ell yah. Look at dis. Peephul iz gittin angry at eachother!"
"O'er wut?"
"Bloody Sykr battul squads or somfin."
"Well, wut do they do?"
"Nofin to us!"
Gorbad and Grotskragga look at eachother and laugh.

Orks - Making your childs channel (PBS) do nothing since 5th edition.

Apart from the fact it lets me throw another S9 large blast around at 36" from the protected hull of a Chimera? No, I guess they must be totally useless against an Ork Mob /sarcasm.

L. Wrex

Yeah, especially when you look at how far you scatter.
Or, when they come into contact with your chimera. You see, Chimeras are kind of allergic to them, and seem to explode in a storm of sneezes when in contact with so many orks and a power klaw.

And any mob reduced to 10 members is going to run off the board. PBS is very nice against orks, especially the mechanized variety, as the mobs are max size 20. Nobs of all kinds are also THE target for PBS, other choice targets include all elite choices in the ork codex. Orks are one of the armies that suffer the most against PBS. They have no psychic defense, their fearless can be removed, all their heavy hitters are vulnerable to a PBS and they have weak long range firepower.

Haha! What?! So I'm just going to, quite happily, let your 30 strong mob walk upto my Chimera and hit it with a PK? And you'd choose to charge a Chimera as opposed to, say, a Leman Russ for instance? Fine, be my guest, as long as your all nicely clumped up once that Chimera does pop for the ensuing template-loving next turn.

Scattering is kind of a moot point. Your mob size is 30, even scattering 9" will probably kill me a boy or three, and that's in a worst-case scenario.

This is yet *further* proof that simply turning round in a game of 40k and saying 'X is rubbish because I'll do Y' simply doesn't cut it.

A PBS is a versatle and useful addition to a Guard army. It can easily slot alongside pretty much any force, be it mech, infantry or inbetween, and make a nuisance of itself from the off. As I said previously, its not a must have but you'll be hard pressed to find any other Elites choice that are worth taking more then them.

L. Wrex

I'm not by any means saying its a bad choice, I'm just playing the devil's advocate.

Ailaros wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:It's less expensive to neutralize an enemy unit by making it run away then it is to neutralize it by destroying it completely.

Well, sort of...

I mean, if we're talking about a unit that is stubborn, fearless, out of LOS of the psykers, or are inside a transport, then there is no way that the PBS can neutralize them, not matter how many points you spend on the PBS. Having literally zero effectiveness is hard on a points:effectiveness ratio.

Secondly, the PBS can't make them run away on their own. This means you need to spend a lot more points in order to actually neutralize them (like, say, spending 160 more points to tack on a manticore). This doesn't make them "less expensive".

Of course, everything I just said has been mentioned repeatedly. Either it's not sinking in, or there is some way we need to explain this better for you to catch on.

Or it just doesn't apply in most games.................. Sure, there are some Stubborn or Fearless units out there, even a couple of armies that can make the entire army Stubborn/Fearless. So what? Does facing lots of Marines with 3+ saves mean you should take anything other than AP3/2/1 weapons? Of course not. The PBS is never a 'zero effectiveness' unit, just as heavy bolters and autocannons and even the lowly lasgun can and do kill T6 2+ save models. I'm discounting the Mech bit cause if your IG army cannot crack open the transports, then you're screwed anyways, regardless of the PBS. Even there, the PBS gives you one more shooting attack at those transports, and yeah, I've even cracked open a Land Raider with them. AP1 is nice when you can get it.
As for more expensive or not, well, if I can shoot one unit at your dedicated assault guys and then make them back up, that lets the rest of my army really pummel something else. So one unit plus PBS, around 300-350 points to negate one of your units while the rest of my army can go after another target. Kinda helps with one of IGs biggest tactical problems, that being target priority, or "what do I need to kill first". The biggest drawback to thisis that Orders occur first, so if the PBS fails, well, you just might be srewed.

I've been running a PBS (Not a PSB, no idea what a PSB is, but multiple posts here refer to it ) ever since the codex came out. It has always been a useful unit. I've killed vehicles with the blast, I've run dozens upon dozens of units off the table with Weaken Resolve. It's not a "must have" but it's definitely in the "nice to have" category.

And until the codex (both DH and WH) changes, I use a Callidus Neural Shredder/PBS Weaken Resolve combo that will insta-jib Fearless/Stubborn units quite well. And those Nob Bikers, they really do indeed hate this combo................

JSK-Fox wrote:Yeah, especially when you look at how far you scatter.
Or, when they come into contact with your chimera. You see, Chimeras are kind of allergic to them, and seem to explode in a storm of sneezes when in contact with so many orks and a power klaw.

I love it when Ork mobs charge my chimeras. It's literally the stupidest thing they can do. Oh no, my 55-point transport got destroyed. But wait, here's a huge clump of targets for my flamethrowers and artillery. I've lost track of how many times my opponents would charge my lead bait Chimera, only to have the whole unit incinerated by the Chimeras behind it.

Anyway, with a 6-12" move and 36" range, Orks should never reach the PBS.

-Nazdreg- wrote:Well normally the manticore is placed out of sight.

If the nob bikers are behind a wagon, perfect. go indirect for the wagon and wrap the template over some nob bikers too and go for it.
Due to cover saves you need average 6 wounds with manticore to kill 3 nob bikers, which is not sure in the first go, but together with other weaponry possible. The important thing is you dont need the other like 50 wounds to kill the whole squad before they open a tank each guy...

Deffkoptas will also smash the Manticore quickly. The thing about preaching how easy it is to destroy nob bikers have actually probably never played against a good ork player. Orks have all the tools to protect their nob bikers. This is not meant as a ding by the way.

Deffkoptas can only reliably take the manticore down if they can engage it in close combat, which is what the bubble wrap is for. Shooting at it will take a full squad of 5 shooting rokkits to have an even half-decent chance to take one down.

But yes, nothing is quite as easy on the table as it sounds on the boards.

The thing about preaching how easy it is to destroy nob bikers have actually probably never played against a good ork player.

To be honest: A good ork player normally does not use nob bikers...
But believe me, I tried PBS vs nob bikers AND Koptaz and it was a win after turn 2, against koptaz a simple infantry shield is enough to protect the important things. even a defensive blob will take out the koptaz soon.
I played many good ork players with different results, but psykers vs nob bikers is always a rather good deal, not to say autowin imho. There are trickier things like buggies+wagons+kans pressing with the big mek behind or hordes of boyz with kanz behind and lootaz firesupporting

word.

I been playing some games with out the psyker battle squad and I been missing it. Even forcing a combat squad off an objective after a couple losses on the last turn would be clutch and its just so good in certain match ups like Orks and Fate Crusher.

I did play the Psyker Battle squad in combination with a Callidus Assasin at Ardboys. Really fun but there is a large cost involved between the Psyker Battle Squad, Inquisitor Lord + Retinue and the Callidus Assasin. It also isn't that good if your opponent reserves everything your Assasin might come in before there is a target for toasting.

Kirika wrote:I been playing some games with out the psyker battle squad and I been missing it. Even forcing a combat squad off an objective after a couple losses on the last turn would be clutch and its just so good in certain match ups like Orks and Fate Crusher.

I did play the Psyker Battle squad in combination with a Callidus Assasin at Ardboys. Really fun but there is a large cost involved between the Psyker Battle Squad, Inquisitor Lord + Retinue and the Callidus Assasin. It also isn't that good if your opponent reserves everything your Assasin might come in before there is a target for toasting.

This is a hilariously nasty combo, but I wouldn't count the Inquisitor Lord + Retinue in that cost, since they are quite awesome and I field him almost every game. The psychic hood is invaluable, and the plasma gun veterans in a chimera can be dowright lethal (especially when paired with a plasma CCS).

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

JSK-Fox wrote:"EY!! GORBAD! Youz got da popkorn?"
"'Ell yah. Look at dis. Peephul iz gittin angry at eachother!"
"O'er wut?"
"Bloody Sykr battul squads or somfin."
"Well, wut do they do?"
"Nofin to us!"
Gorbad and Grotskragga look at eachother and laugh.

Orks - Making your childs channel (PBS) do nothing since 5th edition.

Apart from the fact it lets me throw another S9 large blast around at 36" from the protected hull of a Chimera? No, I guess they must be totally useless against an Ork Mob /sarcasm.

L. Wrex

JSK-Fox wrote:Yeah, especially when you look at how far you scatter.
Or, when they come into contact with your chimera. You see, Chimeras are kind of allergic to them, and seem to explode in a storm of sneezes when in contact with so many orks and a power klaw.

Orks seem far more allergic to hull mounted flame throwers, and guardsman rocking up with 4xflamethrower squads, than chimera's are allergic to Powerklaws.

Just in my experience

Terminus wrote:But yes, nothing is quite as easy on the table as it sounds on the boards.

Quoted for the ultimate truth

Ailaros wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:It's less expensive to neutralize an enemy unit by making it run away then it is to neutralize it by destroying it completely.

Well, sort of...

I mean, if we're talking about a unit that is stubborn, fearless, out of LOS of the psykers, or are inside a transport, then there is no way that the PBS can neutralize them, not matter how many points you spend on the PBS. Having literally zero effectiveness is hard on a points:effectiveness ratio.

Secondly, the PBS can't make them run away on their own. This means you need to spend a lot more points in order to actually neutralize them (like, say, spending 160 more points to tack on a manticore). This doesn't make them "less expensive".

Of course, everything I just said has been mentioned repeatedly. Either it's not sinking in, or there is some way we need to explain this better for you to catch on.

Seriously, Ailaros, this is what people are talking about when they say you completely reject units that you don't seem to like (it has nothing to do with massed infantry, I'm not saying you advocate that only).

1.) Lots of things don't work on stuff in transports, or work very poorly. Things like flamers, FRFSRF lasguns, some artillery pieces. However, only foolish players would argue that these things are bad because of it. You have the rest of the army. I will grant that you probably can't make a good army out of entirely PBSs, but then again, the codex doesn't allow that, so it's not something we need to concern ourselves with.

2.) Zero Effectiveness? S9 blast is zero effectiveness against transports? It's not optimal, but it's like a bonus power that you can use until the transport contents present themselves.

3.) Why is anyone even spouting this garbage about PBS needing support from other units to make something work? Every 100-165 unit in the game will not get the job done on its own. But it's not even as if you're using a PBS supporting unit in a way that is different from how you would use it if you weren't running a PBS. Example: Leman Russ (pick your favorite flavor). What does it do in a normal list? Kills stuff. What does it do in a list with PBS? Kills stuff after it's been hit with Weaken Resolve. Units supporting a PBS give up no part of the role they would play in your army otherwise.


These points aside, I'd like to argue that the oft stated 165 points for a PBS is not necessary. I've had good experiences running them on foot. I'll string them out in a line with majority in cover, making blast templates very poor performers against them. "Incoming" gives them a 2+ cover save, and is easy to get thanks to their good leadership if needed. "Get back in the Fight" lets them do their thing when situations are right. There are other chimeras in my list that can have their contents displaced in the odd case that they really need the protection. Even if they take a few casualties, they're still effective. Lowering Ld 9 by 5 instead of 9 still makes for a pretty tough test to pass.

In regards to psykic defense, the only one that is a real problem is Runes of Warding. Everything else is short ranged, so the squad will get a few turns before the Guard's unparalleled short range firepower smokes the offending psykic defense, or your psykers simply back up. Even against runes of warding, you're likely to get it off eventually, and even if you lose half the squad to Perils before you do, dropping a Farseer's Ld to 6 instead of 10 for one turn can give you a huge edge for that one turn.

To answer the OP: It's not required. It is an extremely useful tool to have in your kit. I've never been sorry when I've taken a squad. I've won tournaments without them.

In regards to psykic defense, the only one that is a real problem is Runes of Warding. Everything else is short ranged, so the squad will get a few turns before the Guard's unparalleled short range firepower smokes the offending psykic defense, or your psykers simply back up. Even against runes of warding, you're likely to get it off eventually, and even if you lose half the squad to Perils before you do, dropping a Farseer's Ld to 6 instead of 10 for one turn can give you a huge edge for that one turn.

To answer the OP: It's not required. It is an extremely useful tool to have in your kit. I've never been sorry when I've taken a squad. I've won tournaments without them.

Well said.

But weve got a new problem (and thats the reason (one of them) why a chimera is very useful for psykers) and that is Shadow in the warp. It just dont work against units inside transports (ok tyranids are often fearless, but you can make stealers or other exposed units run easier). And they often need the speed to drive around intervening terrain and the armour to fight off the nasty anti person fire and assaults.

Of course the first hype about the PBS had to be corrected. But the unit is always an annoying factor for the enemy, because he has to deal with them. One weaken resolve per game can be enough to be the decisive tiebreaker.

It's also a squad that depends heavily on your local meta. If everybody is running fearless stuff (chaos, demons, or nids), or tons of psychic defense, then it's less good.

For all the poo-poohing that's been going on in this thread, there are some genuinely tough units that the PBS can deal with more efficiently than most other options avialable to the IG. Things like assault termies, nobs of all colors, Loganwing (at least for pinning), TWC, even blob platoons.

I don't use them myself, as I prefer a more aggressive style. I've also never used the IG at hard boys levels. The times I've ran PBS though I've generally been satisfied.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Sorry bud, but you do often have a "if it doesn't fit with my army, then its ok but there's much better choices- like mine!" attitude at times =\

I DON'T.

ONLY.

TELL.

PEOPLE.

TO PLAY.

MASSED.

INFANTRY.

Where is this very wrong impression coming from?

Since you ask, I'll add that I also have gotten this impression very strongly from all your posts, Ailaros, especially in tactics and army lists forums. In our interactions specifically, you have a particular tendency to discount any kind of mech build or mech-based tactic and argue that infantry-based meltaguns backed by manticores & basilisks reign supreme. Also you seem not to consider the possibility that anyone would be able to make successful use of standoff tactics, and that the objective of all opposing armies is to close on your guard army at full speed, and that if they don't close, they automatically lose the game.

If it's not your intention to communicate this impression, then sorry about that.

Also your arguments often tend to take the form of "I can think of a situation where your tactic doesn't work, therefore it's worthless," and the corresponding "I can think of a situation where my tactic works, therefore it's the best." The technical name for this argument is the "fallacy of accident" or "exception that proves the rule." There's always going to be a situation where something doesn't work--a better argument evaluates whether or not the situation arises often enough to make the rule widely applicable.

My point here bears on the question of PBSs because they are pretty situational, maybe the most situational unit in the Guard codex (or maybe it's the cover-ignoring AP3 weapons). I don't think anybody would reasonably argue that PBSs are less useful--maybe even near-useless--in certain matchups. The question, I think, is whether the situations where PBSs *are* useful, and the degree to which they are useful, compensate for the bad matches.

good point biophysical.

That was well said, Flavius, I agree on all points.

Ailaros
This is why people think you advocate massed infantry.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/309665.page#1811713
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/308861.page#1798391
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/307615.page#1794436
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/308425.page#1792408

-Nazdreg- wrote:
But weve got a new problem (and thats the reason (one of them) why a chimera is very useful for psykers) and that is Shadow in the warp. It just dont work against units inside transports (ok tyranids are often fearless, but you can make stealers or other exposed units run easier). And they often need the speed to drive around intervening terrain and the armour to fight off the nasty anti person fire and assaults.

I was thinking Shadow of the Warp is 18". If it is much longer than that it poses problems. Even though a lot of tyranids are fearless, from a tournament perspective, I don't think they are a point against PBS. Tyranids are pretty vulnerable to large blasts. Extra large blasts, especially ones that are S8+, are rarely wasted against tyranids, regardless of the AP.

Polonius hit the nail on the head.

Psyker battle Squad is good against certain things like Fateweaver, Nobs, Assault Terminators, Thunder Wolf deathstars, Lootas or Longfangs near the edge of the board.

Against these things you really want the Psyker battle squad because without it you can have an uphill battle.

I'm just finding more Mech Marines lately then match ups that the Psyker Battle Squad is good against. With mech marines they rush their librarian up 12 inches in a vehicle to the center of the board if they get first turn which makes it difficult to be outside of 24 inches from their Librarian.

However when I do run into a match up where I want the PBS I really want them back in. So I ended up putting them back in. Had a game vs Blood Angels last night. The PBS got off 1 shot with their large blast before the Librarian was in range. Didn't get any squads down to Weaken Resolve first turn. However the game 2 nights ago, they hit a squad of lootas and they ran off the board and then I nailed some nobs and made them run. PBS was MVP of that game for sure.

Considering dropping them down to the basic 6 psykers. 8 is better for the double toughness 4 to kill nobs and things with the large blast and in case you take casualties but it makes it cost less points if you run into a match up where the PBS is not good. What you think of 6 psyker PBS?

+1 Flavius, I can also add that arguments like this:

"I can think of a situation where your tactic doesn't work, therefore it's worthless,"

are generally shot down by Ailaros because they are "meaningless".

"Fallacy"

is also a favorite defense

@Ailaros: People havn't said that you only tell people to play massed infantry. What you seem to be guilty of, is seeing every option only in the light of your list/playstyle, and shooting down any option that don't fit your army/playstyle. I would guess that what you get the most flak from isn't related to this though, it's your incredible stubborness and refusal to allow anyone else to be "right". Does make for entertaining reads though

Lest this turn into a "pick on Ailaros" thread, though, I also want to mention that reading his posts made me think differently about both manticores and the economies of putting heavy weapons in blob squads. I actually changed a list to put autocannons in my blob just before locking the list in for a league based on something Ailaros wrote, and I've been really happy with the results.

Also planning to try out the plasma SWS Ailaros recommends. I can think of a lot of situations where that would be useful.

Little off topic, but I think everybody's contributions are important.

And he does make ace battlereports and conversions

In regards to the 6 man PBS: I haven't run one, but it seems like a pretty good investment for the points. It still can do a good portion of the things that a full size PBS can do, it is easy to hide, and it is cheap. In a tournament, if you run into one of those situations where it's garbage, you haven't lost many points (and hey, it still contests).

:-) Ailaros and I play slightly different IG lists (we play at the same store :-))... His stuff is much better painted than mine of course. He plays a pretty solid list, I tend more to the heavy weapons and other weird, situationally useful things... 'course, I also play several Marine armies, so I tend more to the things that caused me more problems...

Back on topic, I have to admit I'm planning on trying the PBS out, but with an escalation league running now they might have to wait a bit... Seem to be a sort of "swiss army" unit, might work sometimes, except against Eldar :-)