Geifer wrote: Man, I'm glad Han didn't shoot first and Luke didn't murder those two Gamorreans that inconvenienced him. I too prefer my Star Wars firmly black and white and unapologetically uncomplicated.
But stormtroopers are literally faceless! Not people!
Imagine if that got undermined by a scene where two Stormtroopers talk about a hobby because they're bored of guarding an empty walkway. I'm glad Stormtroopers don't get humanized liked that. Where'd be the fun in shooting up those guys by the cartload if they were just people trying to make a living?
The Empire's competence (or lack thereof) was something the EU used to struggle with - for some reason the writers in the 90s had trouble rationalizing why a superpower would have trouble stomping out a decentralized insurgent force and took it upon themselves to make up any number of logistical issues in the Empire that boiled down to incompetence on some level. Frankly its a miracle the Death Star didn't blow up by itself.
The Emperor doesn’t want ambitious folk too near him. He wants toadies, lick spittles and crawly little bumlicks who rely on him for promotion. That gives him greater control, relatively little upper echelon conflict (at least aimed at him. The rest can stab each other in the back for all he cares) and no-one to really oppose his plans.
Consider his decision to develop and fund The Death Star and Super Star Destroyers over projects like the (demonstrably far more valuable against the Rebellion’s preferred tactics) TIE Defender.
Rebels and Rogue One show us various parties within The Empire squabbling over project funding. That is by design, not incompetence.
There's an interesting tidbit from the Alphabet Squadron books related to this. Spoilers for Victory's Price and the broader cross-media plot of Operation Cinder:
Spoiler:
The Empire kept extensive records on all its personnel, not just straightforward metadata regarding their physical traits, intelligence, etc. (plus something called M-count), but also personality profiles honed from after-action reports, psychological analysis, disciplinary infractions, right down to complaints from other officers or even civilians, in order to cultivate the down right sociopathic ur-Imperial profile we see in Star Wars. People who prove to value the people under the Empire over the Empire itself are sidelined into stagnant careers, troopers reprimanded for committing atrocities would be moved into similarly inclined units while their commanders would be rewarded for their integrity with a front-line post on Mimban or some other similarly costly post-separatist clean-up operation. Loyalty to the Emperor was valued more than loyalty to the Empire, but cruelty, ruthlessness, the capacity to hate complete strangers, all of these were extremely valuable traits that the Emperor was actively searching for, and the Empire is, as an organization, intended to cultivate.
It was this dataset that determined which Imperial officers were approached by the Emperor's messenger droids after he died, which imperial forces were sent to the unknown regions to found the First Order, which ones fought in costly battles against the New Republic, and which ones were killed in fratricidal conflict with other Imperial forces during the same period.
Geifer wrote: Man, I'm glad Han didn't shoot first and Luke didn't murder those two Gamorreans that inconvenienced him. I too prefer my Star Wars firmly black and white and unapologetically uncomplicated.
But stormtroopers are literally faceless! Not people!
Imagine if that got undermined by a scene where two Stormtroopers talk about a hobby because they're bored of guarding an empty walkway. I'm glad Stormtroopers don't get humanized liked that. Where'd be the fun in shooting up those guys by the cartload if they were just people trying to make a living?
True dat there was an ace bit in the the first No One Lives Forever game from the 90's were you can eaves drop on a couple of cannon fodder grunts have a lengthy chat about forming a band with some other mooks,if I hadn't tripped their aggro radius I would have sneaked past
Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery had a fun deleted scene.
After the scene where Austin runs over a dude with a steam roller, it cut to a suburban household where a wife was talking on the phone about how proud she was of her husband and his new job, which led to all these good deeds the family was then able to do. She hangs up, and another call comes in from her husband's new job, where he was killed on the job in a steam roller mishap.
Easy E wrote: Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery had a fun deleted scene.
After the scene where Austin runs over a dude with a steam roller, it cut to a suburban household where a wife was talking on the phone about how proud she was of her husband and his new job, which led to all these good deeds the family was then able to do. She hangs up, and another call comes in from her husband's new job, where he was killed on the job in a steam roller mishap.
Good bit.
I thought that was part of a series of scenes in the films that when mooks die you would cut to their families/friends.
Geifer wrote: Man, I'm glad Han didn't shoot first and Luke didn't murder those two Gamorreans that inconvenienced him. I too prefer my Star Wars firmly black and white and unapologetically uncomplicated.
But stormtroopers are literally faceless! Not people!
Imagine if that got undermined by a scene where two Stormtroopers talk about a hobby because they're bored of guarding an empty walkway. I'm glad Stormtroopers don't get humanized liked that. Where'd be the fun in shooting up those guys by the cartload if they were just people trying to make a living?
True dat there was an ace bit in the the first No One Lives Forever game from the 90's were you can eaves drop on a couple of cannon fodder grunts have a lengthy chat about forming a band with some other mooks,if I hadn't tripped their aggro radius I would have sneaked past
There's a similar bit in, I think, Max Payne 2 where 2 random mooks have an awkward conversation when one of them asks if they name their gun. It's really well done and you only get to hear it if you don't do the standard "all guns blazing" approach.
While kind of funny, being good to your kids after getting home from shaking down small businesses for protection money or suppressing the populace in support of a fascist regime doesn't garner a lot of sympathy from me.
Like I totally get there are absolutely movies where "heroes" blaze through totally innocent security guards and the line, but the Stormtroopers, mobsters and world conquering super villain henchmen.... nah. I don't care how good the benefits are, you know what you're doing and what the risks are.
Propaganda and living through a galaxy wide conflict would do a lot to alleviate the perceived "badness" from the grunt POV. Stuff like Bad Batch and Rebels showing how people are so easily drawn in by Fascism is IMO what makes them really good. Agent Kallus from Rebels is honestly one of the best characters in that show. He's cocky and proud of the power he wields as an ISB Agent but then as the brutal truth of the Empire hits home he realises that he has been taking pleasure in being a terrible person and actively works to atone for the crimes he has committed.
At the same time you get the opposite with Governor Pryce who sees everything the Empire does as justified and is so taken in that even when faced with her death she refuses to abandon the Empire. Its tragic because for a split second the show makes you think she's going to go for it then refuses and dies a brutal death for a kids show.
LunarSol wrote: While kind of funny, being good to your kids after getting home from shaking down small businesses for protection money or suppressing the populace in support of a fascist regime doesn't garner a lot of sympathy from me.
Like I totally get there are absolutely movies where "heroes" blaze through totally innocent security guards and the line, but the Stormtroopers, mobsters and world conquering super villain henchmen.... nah. I don't care how good the benefits are, you know what you're doing and what the risks are.
And then think of the history of humanity, that is full of loving your kids while doing stuff like chopping off the prisoners 5 year old daughters hands because he is behind on his production quotas. Or all those soldiers who go on to be lionised as heroes having raped and murdered their way through a war. Humans are funny creatures. Not showing that I think does people a disservice as you have a far bigger disconnect with reality when you finally have to encounter mans inhumanity. Also leads you to think funny stuff about justice and punishment and you don't want to see the shades of grey that go on in any society and end up making problems worse.
LunarSol wrote: While kind of funny, being good to your kids after getting home from shaking down small businesses for protection money or suppressing the populace in support of a fascist regime doesn't garner a lot of sympathy from me.
Like I totally get there are absolutely movies where "heroes" blaze through totally innocent security guards and the line, but the Stormtroopers, mobsters and world conquering super villain henchmen.... nah. I don't care how good the benefits are, you know what you're doing and what the risks are.
And then think of the history of humanity, that is full of loving your kids while doing stuff like chopping off the prisoners 5 year old daughters hands because he is behind on his production quotas. Or all those soldiers who go on to be lionised as heroes having raped and murdered their way through a war. Humans are funny creatures. Not showing that I think does people a disservice as you have a far bigger disconnect with reality when you finally have to encounter mans inhumanity. Also leads you to think funny stuff about justice and punishment and you don't want to see the shades of grey that go on in any society and end up making problems worse.
Absolutely, but at the same time trying to show sympathy for that kind of stuff is also why we have this era of people that are... probably a little too into the Empire. Like there's a whole "maybe the Rebels are the real villains all along" segment of the fanbase that gets more and more creepy the more of this kind of stuff that gets pushed. Like, no, they destroyed an occupied planet to build a space station that they used to destroy another occupied planet for the sole purpose of threatening any further dissent with mass extinction. Even in places where they're not actively involved in atrocities, Stormtroopers are never doing good. They might be doing "their jobs" but the lengths people go to justify them is.... kind of creepy and gross at best.
It's important for people to understand why so many support the Empire while showing the "justification" for it as baseless and entirely down to manipulation. IMO that's why Imperial-gone-Rebel stories are so important. They start off all patriotic and ready to serve, then they see what that service actually entails, and their world is shattered (metaphorically in this case).
The thing is though, it should be going that way. We already have most of the Empire being fine with loads of war crimes and stuff so we need the character-driven stories to have these people realise "Holy heck I am a piece of human garbage I should change that". Then again, people don't like it when media tells them "Maybe you shouldn't be rooting for the fascists yeah?".
Gert wrote: It's important for people to understand why so many support the Empire while showing the "justification" for it as baseless and entirely down to manipulation. IMO that's why Imperial-gone-Rebel stories are so important. They start off all patriotic and ready to serve, then they see what that service actually entails, and their world is shattered (metaphorically in this case).
We see a bit of that in Obi-Wan, with the driver/farmer ratting them out to the Storm Troopers, and seemingly being really quite positive about The Empire and it’s at least perceived benefits.
Bad Batch has done it especially well. The crossover between a period of intense galactic conflict a one of stability and peace.
It's as Tarkin says, why does the Empire need expensive Clones when they have hundreds of thousands willing to sign up to help keep the peace? The chain code system as well is an ingenious idea. Get rid of all the old money and give people a sense of security in their lives.
Spot on as usual. Shows how at odds Disney is with their family friendly focus and their attempts at making villains feel actually villainous when it comes to what crimes they can do as a protagonist. It would be like if Walt in breaking bad only ever made medicine that fought off cancer for guys like Gus. He would be the one who sleeps in socks, not the one who knocks.
This is part of the reason why I feel very skeptical that they'll be able to pull off Daredevil well in the same vein as the Netflix version as I doubt we'll be seeing Fisk decapitate anyone with a car door again anytime soon.
Imo, calling the Empire fascist is wrong, as it clearly removes any nuance in the conversation and ends up with it having to be always evil for evil sake, and obviously almost mustache twirling-y stupid and bad. Because of the connotation. The bad guys are reduced to always being 100% wrong all the time, and the good guys are always right 100% of the time.
I think it would be much better to that it's not entirely black and white, imo, but now that the image of fascist = Empire is there, there's no way that'll ever happen, so good job, I guess.
Well…given The Empire was always presented as a Fascist Dictatorship, I’m not sure what you’re loling at.
You might as well try to claim Daleks aren’t a direct analogy of Nazis and people shouldn’t say that because it reduces them to *checks notes* an exaggerated but ultimately accurate portrayal of Nazis and ideals of “racial purity”
It was my understanding that some expanded material made it appear less so. Maybe I am wrong, I still say it would make a better story. As it stands, there's no room for twists or anything of the sort, there's no room for a sympathetic Empire character unless they're also going to turncoat, and so it becomes easy to see how things will go, the sort-of good-guy on the Imps will turn, or die shortly after having turned, because there's no room for more.
IDK about any Daleks, Dr.Who holds little interest to me.
The Empire is bad and more specifically fascist though. Objectively.
Blatantly authoritarian, human-supremacist, militaristic, massive reliance on state-run propaganda, literally making up enemies in the form of the Jedi's "betrayal" of the Republic, the fact that in ANH Palpatine just dissolves the Senate because its an irritant. The only real sign of fascism it doesn't cover is the disdain for women (The Empire is an equal opportunity employer).
So yeah, the Empire very much fits the bill of fascism and as an entity is very much in the "bad" category. Individuals can still do good within the system but the system is bad.
There are sympathetic characters who don't turn to the Rebellion but they are very few and often end up being sympathetic because the Empire they so ardently support in turn screws them over. Governor Pryce is a good example of someone who excels in the Empire until a point where she makes a load of errors and she realises the Empire is only your ally until you become a problem.
Gert wrote: Individuals can still do good within the system but the system is bad.
That I can agree with. Though I'll note that I personally haven't heard of it being referenced to being Fascist until very recent time. Prior to... I want to say 2014-15? Sometime around that, the close we got were calling the uniforms of the officers Nazi-like.
That The Empire is a fascist dictatorship doesn’t automatically preclude interesting stories.
Whilst you cannot, and should not, humanise and soften The Organisation? You can show positive impacts on a population, to explain how it maintains some level of popular support. A tired trope of Nazi Germany? They Made The Trains Run On Time.
I mean, whatever form of Government the next man might feel to be abhorrent? Every single system of Government will have common folk that win, and common folk that lose out.
Hence I found the Sullustan truck driver quite interesting in Obi-Wan, as he only had positive opinions of The Empire.
There’s even room for stuff like Schindler’s List type tales, of someone quite deep set in Awful Thing who, for whatever reason, Does Good Things.
But what you cannot do is make The Empire look heroic and noble. Because it just…..wasn’t. At all.
Gert wrote: Individuals can still do good within the system but the system is bad.
That I can agree with. Though I'll note that I personally haven't heard of it being referenced to being Fascist until very recent time. Prior to... I want to say 2014-15? Sometime around that, the close we got were calling the uniforms of the officers Nazi-like.
Edit: And to be cheeky.
Gert wrote: The Empire is bad and more specifically fascist though. Objectively.
Blatantly authoritarian, militaristic, massive reliance on state-run propaganda, literally making up enemies in the form of the Jedi's "betrayal" of the Republic, the fact that in ANH Palpatine just dissolves the Senate
Could apply to the USSR, too. I cut down the human supremacist part, but I think there could be wiggle room for it, too.
LunarSol wrote: I really enjoy Kallus on this front. The episode with him and Zeb is extremely well done.
At the same time you often run into a lot of criticism around these stories always going this way. Iden being a prime example.
Iden should have a particularly hard time since she's a particular kind of video game character. While the single player games pretty much follow the usual approach of Rebels as protagonists (or equivalent designated good guys outside the Galactic Civil War era), multiplayer games by their nature have to put Rebels and Imperials on equal footing for balancing reasons. People simply get the impression that they can play either side in peace without the creators telling them they're wrong. That's just the nature of PVP games and not specific to Star Wars.
If you buy Battlefront 2 you'll likely have that mindset as it's primarily a multiplayer game and would expect that if you get a single player campaign featuring an Imperial protagonist, you actually get to play an Imperial character. Because why wouldn't you? Instead you get the same old thing you get in every other single player Star Wars game. That's a decision on part of the developers that's bound to find its critics.
Gert wrote: Individuals can still do good within the system but the system is bad.
That I can agree with. Though I'll note that I personally haven't heard of it being referenced to being Fascist until very recent time. Prior to... I want to say 2014-15? Sometime around that, the close we got were calling the uniforms of the officers Nazi-like.
Yes, I find it unhelpful to label the Empire a fascist state. George Lucas was hardly subtle about showing the transition of the Republic that should have been a functional democracy but was factually a plutocracy, to a constitutional monarchy after Order 66 that retained a form of representation and a foundation of Republic laws that then steadily developed towards an absolute monarchy with the dissolution of the senate in Episode IV as the culmination, which ushered in the unrestrained reign of terror we get to watch in the original trilogy.
The Empire is blatantly authoritarian. It isn't and doesn't need to be the popular perception of fascist for that.
The Empire is a characterisation of Nazi Germany but without the demeaning of women bit. Everything else is there. Not sure it can't be fascist when it hits all but one of the markers and is a literal copy of the biggest real-life fascists of all time.
The Empire as portrayed in the moving pictures does not institutionally champion the fight against opposing ideologies (communism first and foremost for Nazis) or repress and exterminate minorities. Unity through antagonism is a pretty significant part of Nazi Germany and is entirely absent in the Empire after its formation. Considering that the Empire does not control the the entire galaxy before its fall and could plausibly make use of that tool during its expansion, I'd say that's a difference worth noting.
We could probably find more stuff that doesn't match, but there is a reason why I find "Space Nazis, duh!" so pointless and I'm just going to go with stating it. Fascism is one form of authoritarianism and hardly innovative. There are only so many building blocks to authoritarianism and one form won't look much different from another. If you want to see fascism in the portrayal of the Empire, you will. Because same building blocks. Because it's close enough. But that way you insert preconceived notions of your flavor of authoritarianism into the Empire which may objectively not be there. Or not intended. Or not conclusively explored. You stop discussing the thing and start discussing an interpretation of the thing. Which, as I said, I find unhelpful.
Geifer wrote: The Empire as portrayed in the moving pictures does not institutionally champion the fight against opposing ideologies (communism first and foremost for Nazis) or repress and exterminate minorities. Unity through antagonism is a pretty significant part of Nazi Germany and is entirely absent in the Empire after its formation. Considering that the Empire does not control the the entire galaxy before its fall and could plausibly make use of that tool during its expansion, I'd say that's a difference worth noting.
The Empire isn't just the Original Trilogy anymore though and refusing to acknowledge other sources of media to suit your argument is a pretty bad way to go about it. But let's analyse your points:
1 - The Empire makes it clear that the Rebellion (The Alliance to Restore the Republic) is an ideological enemy that is a threat to a safe and secure galaxy. Officers make clear their contempt for the Rebellion and the need to destroy it. Ironically the majority of Imperial officers underestimate the Rebellion, just as the Germans did the USSR. So not so dissimilar on that front.
2 - One of the founding goals of the Empire is to hunt down any Jedi, a goal that extends well into the Galactic Civil War period. When dissidents start to pop up there is another enemy to target in those who try to "destroy" the Empire.
3 - Nazi Germany didn't control the whole world and many officials and officers escaped to nations that remained neutral during WW2, particularly in South America. Just like in Star Wars when many Imperial groups fled to the Outer Rim and Unknown Regions.
I also never said the Empire was a perfect copy of Nazi Germany and due to the nature of the setting not every single thing will be the exact same, which again, I never claimed it would be.
We could probably find more stuff that doesn't match, but there is a reason why I find "Space Nazis, duh!" so pointless and I'm just going to go with stating it. Fascism is one form of authoritarianism and hardly innovative. There are only so many building blocks to authoritarianism and one form won't look much different from another. If you want to see fascism in the portrayal of the Empire, you will. Because same building blocks. Because it's close enough. But that way you insert preconceived notions of your flavor of authoritarianism into the Empire which may objectively not be there. Or not intended. Or not conclusively explored. You stop discussing the thing and start discussing an interpretation of the thing. Which, as I said, I find unhelpful.
The thing is though, I'm not just saying "Empire bad therefore fascism". I've taken actual examples and made comparisons between them, as have others. Hell, the uniforms of the Imperial officers are supposed to invoke the imagery of fascism (more specifically Nazi Germany). It was literally the intent behind the Empire to show that fascism is bad and that freedom (i.e. democracy) is good.
The reason the Empire loses so often is that Star Wars is a franchise for kids.
Kids don't want to see the bad guys win in the big movies, they want the heroes to win. In TV shows we get a better view of the Empire being the immense juggernaut of power that it is. Rebels has loads of losses for the Rebellion for example but again because its a kids show, the baddies lose in the end.
Honestly most adult films the heroes also tend to win in the end too. Heck having films or TV shows where the bad guy wins or you get a grey victory or no victory at all are actually on the rare side. By and large in most things good, or at least the protagonist, tends to win.
There's one or two genres where this isn't the case, eg horror/gore and anime can be more wild with who wins and loses.
I get your meaning, but at the same time good people winning is generally the norm for adult to kids stuff.
The real difference is that the original films only really show us life in the Rebel Alliance and the Imperial Army. We see very little of life outside of those two settings. Broadly speaking we never really see life as an Imperial citizen and what little we do see isn't all that bad. Lets not forget Luke was looking to join up for flight to get off his rock and it seemed that the Imperium did bring a general level of peace/stability to his world (not a vast amount but perhaps more than when the Republic was around and didn't control anything on his world).
So broadly speaking we see the military end doing horrible things ;but we don't see the social end. Heck even blowing up a planet we see very little if no actual interaction with people outside of the rebellion. We don't see peoples being enslaved or see worlds losing rights and such.
We get a very clear idea that the military forces are evil and that the Sith are "evil", but we don't really see a bad life living within the Imperium
Its worth noting that exactly what the Empire is standing in for differs depending on who you ask and what material you take in for the comparison. George Lucas famously said the Empire represented America, and proactively drew parallels between the Emperor and Nixon, this comparison comes from his 1973 treatment, where he also explicitly says they're at a crossroads between revolution and fascism. The American parallel is even more blatant in the original lore that appeared in the Star Wars novelization that was defuncted by Empire and Jedi, where the Emperor was explicitly stated to be a puppet ruler with Tarkin and other members of the military industrial complex in actual control of the affairs of state. That said, he had them marching around in jack boots and black uniforms and the actors and audiences of the time understood what imagery they were trying to evoke there.
The Empire as Nazi parallels becomes exceedingly clear in the old EU, where we start to see more of the Imperial perspective and for lack of direct instruction from Lucas would frequently default to Nazi parallels. It's here we see aliens sequestered off into undesirable sections of Coruscant and walled off, captured and held in high concentration areas where Imperial scientists conduct experiments on them, the extreme preference for core worlders, the unpersoning of alien species, the beginnings of a movement to reclassify certain races of humanity as species of alien, rampant sexism - and that's just in the Rogue Squadron books they've recently been re-releasing! Ironically, they lean so hard into direct Nazi imagery in these books, that the Rebellion ends up becoming the allegorical Americans - and you'd better believe there's no end to different alien species thanking them profusely for riding in and saving them.
The Empire as a more generalized fascist organization is something that took shape (at least among the EU authors) as the prequels took shape, but a combination of things (the fact that new novels were either being set years and years and years after Jedi at this point, or in Prequel times, 9/11...) meant they weren't really examining the movie-era Empire at the moment so it wasn't extremely prominent until you start getting towards the tail end of the aughts and then you start seeing stories about Imperial spies or idealistic stormtroopers defecting and stuff, and by this time its clear the story group is looking at other fascist regimes and trying to mould the Empire into something that's a little less explicitly Nazis in Space.
The Disney acquisition then allows them to dispense with the old EU and its baggage (and, most definitely first in their minds, screw their authors out of royalties) and they're able to apply this philosophy to Empire with more room to breathe, as it were. That doesn't mean the movies are going to sit you down and have an Imperial guy tell you his government's twisted philosophy, of course. Not just because that would be boring, but also because Star Wars is a multimedia juggernaut and if you get too out in the open about it it's going to hurt merchandising opportunities (Lindsay Ellis makes a great breakdown about that problem here)
That doesn't mean you can't have complicated Empire stories, in fact there are a lot of them out there. But at the end of the day you do need to reconcile the fact that the Empire is an authoritarian, autocratic police state that serves a cackling, black-robed wizard who's powered by hate.
And I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but the Alphabet Squadron trillogy is exactly what you're looking for if you want complicated Imperial characters who present complicated, relatable (if very sad) reasons for serving the Empire even as it falls apart. But even beyond that, if you're looking for characters that present a very morally grey facet of the Star Wars universe you need to be looking through the books.
Geifer wrote: The Empire as portrayed in the moving pictures does not institutionally champion the fight against opposing ideologies (communism first and foremost for Nazis) or repress and exterminate minorities. Unity through antagonism is a pretty significant part of Nazi Germany and is entirely absent in the Empire after its formation. Considering that the Empire does not control the the entire galaxy before its fall and could plausibly make use of that tool during its expansion, I'd say that's a difference worth noting.
The Empire isn't just the Original Trilogy anymore though and refusing to acknowledge other sources of media to suit your argument is a pretty bad way to go about it. But let's analyse your points:
1 - The Empire makes it clear that the Rebellion (The Alliance to Restore the Republic) is an ideological enemy that is a threat to a safe and secure galaxy. Officers make clear their contempt for the Rebellion and the need to destroy it. Ironically the majority of Imperial officers underestimate the Rebellion, just as the Germans did the USSR. So not so dissimilar on that front.
2 - One of the founding goals of the Empire is to hunt down any Jedi, a goal that extends well into the Galactic Civil War period. When dissidents start to pop up there is another enemy to target in those who try to "destroy" the Empire.
3 - Nazi Germany didn't control the whole world and many officials and officers escaped to nations that remained neutral during WW2, particularly in South America. Just like in Star Wars when many Imperial groups fled to the Outer Rim and Unknown Regions.
I also never said the Empire was a perfect copy of Nazi Germany and due to the nature of the setting not every single thing will be the exact same, which again, I never claimed it would be.
I said moving pictures, not original trilogy. As in movies and shows.
On point 1, I'd challenge the idea that the Rebellion is publicly acknowledged as an enemy ideology. In Rebels, which actually shows us civilian life, per Imperial Network broadcasts rebels are misguided individuals and common criminals that should be reported to law enforcement. Rebel movements are downplayed to the public and there is no call to arms specifically because of any rebel threat. Recruitment propaganda is based on working for the Empire, not against another force. Any threat from which soldiers are supposed to the Empire safe is kept hazy rather than concrete.
As Overread points out, the original trilogy shows military versus military with hardly any civilian life to speak of. The opinion of Imperial officers about the rebellion is irrelevant to how propaganda spins that rebellion to the populace.
On point 2, while Palpi makes the Jedi hunt a goal as part of religious conflict between Sith and Jedi, his motivation is personal and remains hidden from the general public. The Jedi are designated a criminal organization. Political motivation is implied in his founding speech, but afterwards the endeavor is to let the public forget that the Jedi even existed and let the Empire's extra specialized secret police take care of the matter silently.
Thus my argument that the Empire does not actually try to sway the general public by presenting a tangible threat to unite against. Instead it propagates its benefits and upsides while remaining silent on the their cost and suppressing dissent where necessary to keep up the illusion it's all sunshine and lollipops.
With regard to the rest of your post, I don't see how any of that even addresses anything I wrote, but feel free to expand on it if you think it does.
Another important point we can't overlook is scale. The Empire and the Republic were different things to different worlds. Those in the core and those on the fringe experience both very differently.
As a result even if we follow a series on one planet or a group of linked worlds; their experiences might be vastly different from other worlds. There clearly are worlds where the Empire likely improves quality of life; improves stability and order and might generally be seen as overall beneficial. Meanwhile other worlds might feel the pinch in terms of leaders changing, but the average person might find little difference.
Then you've worlds that suffer and the general view is that under the Empire more worlds suffer than under the Republic and that the suffering continues to generally escalate the longer the Empire is in control.
The Empire most certainly works to suppress opposition and relies heavily on its military power. It's a military state of control, which explains why the Death Star is an attractive system of governing and control for them. It's a projection of ultimate power If your world doesn't conform you get blasted and the Empire generally has the biggest, most well equipped and growing fleet of warships.
On the subject of Jedi don't forget that even by the Clone Wars time the Jedi were considered rare. Rare enough that by the time we hit A New Hope Jedi are considered a myth (although we've often said elsewhere the time passing feels off in this regard). So Jedi aren't even all that much of a viable thing; even the Military forces of the Empire consider the Jedi a done and dusted affair. Something that they've either killed off or have died off.
Geifer wrote: I said moving pictures, not original trilogy. As in movies and shows.
Why not just say that? Why be weird about it?
On point 1, I'd challenge the idea that the Rebellion is publicly acknowledged as an enemy ideology. In Rebels, which actually shows us civilian life, per Imperial Network broadcasts rebels are misguided individuals and common criminals that should be reported to law enforcement. Rebel movements are downplayed to the public and there is no call to arms specifically because of any rebel threat. Recruitment propaganda is based on working for the Empire, not against another force. Any threat from which soldiers are supposed to the Empire safe is kept hazy rather than concrete.
As Overread points out, the original trilogy shows military versus military with hardly any civilian life to speak of. The opinion of Imperial officers about the rebellion is irrelevant to how propaganda spins that rebellion to the populace.
Propaganda broadcasts routinely end with messages telling people to report Rebel activity and to be vigilant of Rebels. I'd say that's pretty public about the acknowledgment of Rebels as an enemy ideology, if not explicitly the Alliance to Restore the Republic which TBF only came into existence in 2BBY. Prior to that planets were given specific news on Rebels on their turf such as those on Lothal or Onderon.
The opinions of the officers do matter IMO because they still live within the Empire and still have thoughts of their own. They also get that extra view on Rebel cells with the actual capabilities of each group so when officers say things like "These Rebels aren't a problem" you get to see that extra level of propaganda influence.
On point 2, while Palpi makes the Jedi hunt a goal as part of religious conflict between Sith and Jedi, his motivation is personal and remains hidden from the general public. The Jedi are designated a criminal organization. Political motivation is implied in his founding speech, but afterwards the endeavor is to let the public forget that the Jedi even existed and let the Empire's extra specialized secret police take care of the matter silently.
My guy:
Spoiler:
The start of the Empire is about crushing two Rebellions, the CIS and the supposed Jedi rebellion. When a Jedi does pop up it's reinforced by the propaganda that they are dangerous and need to be destroyed to the point where while people view it as an "ancient" religion, it's still a dangerous one. The Empire goes "Remember how we killed the Jedi?" every single year on Empire Day to reinforce the public memory that Jedi are dangerous. When Kanan Jarrus is killed in Rebels, Governor Pryce throws a parade (mostly to hide her failure) but it's also a genuine celebration for the Empire that a hidden Jedi has been found and destroyed.
Yeah, the Inquisitorius or ISB are the ones that deal with any Jedi but people are still taught to be vigilant and report suspected Jedi to the authorities which draws certain parallels with IRL things.
Thus my argument that the Empire does not actually try to sway the general public by presenting a tangible threat to unite against. Instead it propagates its benefits and upsides while remaining silent on the their cost and suppressing dissent where necessary to keep up the illusion it's all sunshine and lollipops.
It takes the ideological concept of rebelling against the Empire and makes that the enemy. Rebellion is seen as dangerous and deviant compared to the safety of Imperial rule. Rebels are demonised with propaganda and those who support them are publically named and shamed.
So in terms of having an ideological enemy, it's there just not in the explict form of a nation in the exact same way as Nazi Germany and the USSR, at least not until the Declaration of Rebellion by Mon Mothma.
If you buy Battlefront 2 you'll likely have that mindset as it's primarily a multiplayer game and would expect that if you get a single player campaign featuring an Imperial protagonist, you actually get to play an Imperial character. Because why wouldn't you? Instead you get the same old thing you get in every other single player Star Wars game. That's a decision on part of the developers that's bound to find its critics.
.
Being old I played the original Colony Wars game where you could play from either the perspective of the "evil" Empire or the rebels, same with Command and Conquer and others - I was really disapointed I could not do this in Battlefront and had to become a rebel. Same in Cyberpunk - can I play a morally duibious corp - nope just a streetkid rebel - thats all we wrote....sad really.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That The Empire is a fascist dictatorship doesn’t automatically preclude interesting stories.
In the land of Disney it does. Can't have an Empire story without someone switching sides almost immediately.
Pretty much this. The fact that we have this happen not once, not twice, but at least three times over the course of games, shows, and movies is tiring. You can show someone living in the life of the Empire and their perspective of rebel attacks, consider that the destruction of the first Death Star could be seen as the Empire's version of 911, especially with Imperial propaganda and the very real loss of at least millions of lives on there, which likely included the family of some of those on board. Or if that seems too sympathetic, consider those targeted by extremists on the rebel side like Saw Guerra's Partisans, with collateral damage from them maybe inspiring Imperial citizens to join the Stormtrooper Corps to protect their people against whom they consider terrorists. It doesn't have to be completely whitewashing the Empire's actions but one of the greatest lessons we've learned from history is the banality of evil, where not every person in even fundamentally corrupt or evil organizations is a mustache twirling villain or a "misunderstood" antagonist that just needs to see the light and convert to the Rebellion. If anything, it would be much more interesting seeing someone who rejects both the Rebellion as too unstable and similar to the original Separatists and the existing power groups in the Empire by instead creating a new subfaction within the Empire.
Frankly, having even a comic perspective of a stormtrooper like Gary from Robot Chicken where he just happens to survive through the original trilogy's sagas events and having his perspective as a mook on the ground on things would be preferable to what we have now.
xerxeskingofking wrote: co-incidentally enough, i was just assembling a 28mm scale Skfz 222, or, as you people might better know it, Lt. Grubers "little tank".......
Nice But I imagine he will have his "little Walker"?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That The Empire is a fascist dictatorship doesn’t automatically preclude interesting stories.
In the land of Disney it does. Can't have an Empire story without someone switching sides almost immediately.
Pretty much this. The fact that we have this happen not once, not twice, but at least three times over the course of games, shows, and movies is tiring. You can show someone living in the life of the Empire and their perspective of rebel attacks, consider that the destruction of the first Death Star could be seen as the Empire's version of 911, especially with Imperial propaganda and the very real loss of at least millions of lives on there, which likely included the family of some of those on board. Or if that seems too sympathetic, consider those targeted by extremists on the rebel side like Saw Guerra's Partisans, with collateral damage from them maybe inspiring Imperial citizens to join the Stormtrooper Corps to protect their people against whom they consider terrorists. It doesn't have to be completely whitewashing the Empire's actions but one of the greatest lessons we've learned from history is the banality of evil, where not every person in even fundamentally corrupt or evil organizations is a mustache twirling villain or a "misunderstood" antagonist that just needs to see the light and convert to the Rebellion. If anything, it would be much more interesting seeing someone who rejects both the Rebellion as too unstable and similar to the original Separatists and the existing power groups in the Empire by instead creating a new subfaction within the Empire.
Frankly, having even a comic perspective of a stormtrooper like Gary from Robot Chicken where he just happens to survive through the original trilogy's sagas events and having his perspective as a mook on the ground on things would be preferable to what we have now.
Again, these perspectives exist - but its limited to the books (lit all of the things you're asking for exist in a specific book series that I'm not going to name again, for the millionth time in the same thread) because thats the kind of stuff you can get away with when its just a book. Once it's a movie or a tv series and it has a billion dollars of script doctoring and effects budgets and marketing behind it, every corner of the story group and the Lucasfilm executive board is going to start dipping their fingers in, and they are not going to risk it.
Video games are a grey area here, everyone complains about BF2 featuring an Imperial waking up to justice and all that, but in Squadrons you play a perfectly loyal imperial for that entire half of the campaign, and hunting down a former commander who defected is a major part of your unit's motivation.
Captain Joystick wrote: Video games are a grey area here, everyone complains about BF2 featuring an Imperial waking up to justice and all that, but in Squadrons you play a perfectly loyal imperial for that entire half of the campaign, and hunting down a former commander who defected is a major part of your unit's motivation.
Yeah, but flyboys suck, so that doesn't count.
Good to know, though. I never got far into Squadrons. I couldn't make the controls work for me.
Captain Joystick wrote: ... but in Squadrons you play a perfectly loyal imperial for that entire half of the campaign, and hunting down a former commander who defected is a major part of your unit's motivation.
Your squadron leader (IIRC) defects to the Rebels after the first mission.
Captain Joystick wrote: ... but in Squadrons you play a perfectly loyal imperial for that entire half of the campaign, and hunting down a former commander who defected is a major part of your unit's motivation.
Your squadron leader (IIRC) defects to the Rebels after the first mission.
He defects during the first mission, and you spend the rest of the game hunting him down.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That doesn't do anything but strengthen what I said.
Yeah, this just demonstrates how the default for when the empire is in focus are the people who are defecting from it or the incompetents that are left with their pants down in front of the protagonists.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That doesn't do anything but strengthen what I said.
Then maybe I'm missing your point because I thought we were complaining about how they keep pulling a bait and switch promising an imperial perspective and having you play as a defector - Squadrons doesn't do that, it delivers the Imperial campaign it promises where you play an Imperial pilot that parties up with a bunch of other imperial pilots who have their own ideas and dreams and politics who all agree your traitor mentor needs to die in a cool space explosion.
Spoiler:
Then you feth off at the end so that the Rebel campaign that's happening in parallel can also have a happy ending because the writers definitely weren't given enough leeway to to have your rebel campaign crew and empire campaign crew duke it out at the end and kill off potentially lucrative new characters.
But if you want actual imperial perspectives in Star Wars your only real option is the books - not only because that's really the only place that examines anyone's perspectives on the world at large, but its the only place where Lucasfilm gives its authors enough leeway to make up, an imperial admiral who is clearly getting on in years and starting to have trouble differentiating the Rebel Alliance forces from say, Clone Wars style Separatists - or a fighter ace who tried to go awol when the Empire fell apart only to turn around and join the struggling remnants because he realized the New Republic was going to hunt him down like a dog for the rest of his life - without having the Story Group meddle with everything.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There’s a preview thing of Andor on Disney+, as part of Disney+ Day.
Probably worth watching
It was worth watching for me. I am considerably more optimistic about this show now… especially considering I did not like the Cassian Andor character in Rogue One. In one scene in that preview they managed to make me interested in learning more.
Interesting and worth a look, I'd say. Half of it is a (superficial, but pretty to look at) documentary, the other half is a scene of Cassian getting the rebel sales pitch, which is pretty cool in my opinion. So, I said before I'm looking forward to Andor and I want it to be good, and that teaser certainly didn't disappoint.
So? Well? What are they waiting for? Is it the 21st yet? No? Why not? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
I really like the format for Tales of the Jedi, gives us those extra tidbits of worldbuilding and seeing things like young Dooku without having to create an entire show around it.
S3 for Mando looks decent too, though I'm worried how much more of SW street we're going to experience in the season. Hoping it's less focused on cameos and touching more on what's going to be happening on Mandalore next as it seems to be implying.
We the Audience are in very, very safe hands. The same minds behind Clone Wars and Rebels, which are frankly amazing. But…..this time? With no need for the first season to tease and coax its audience.
Like Bad Batch? We’re primed to delve nuts first into this one, because everything else has primed us for it.
The Clone Wars show is the best thing to happen to Star Wars since the original trilogy, granted, but its disappointing that Tales of the Jedi has nothing to do with the Exar and Ulic era set thousands of years before A New Hope.
I suppose next they'll announce Shadows of the Empire and it'll be nothing to do with Black Sun, Xizor or Dash Rendar. Probably some minor tale about Maz or...sigh..."DJ" visiting Spaceball City.
In some ways the problem with SW stories set near the films is that even though there's a whole galaxy to play with; fans want to see their favourite characters appear and budget wise its much easier to get lots of fans with an established character so produces will always put pressure to include them too.
So going way before/after frees up writers and creators because from the inception of the project you can't go over famous characters bar a select few
We will probably have to wait till Disney is truly drunk on $$$ for us to get Old Republic storylines. Then they can "afford" to greenlight more niche projects.
The last time they tried even a slight time jump we ended up with a bad remake of A New Hope, and it only got worse from there. What's more, it doesn't look like they know what to do with that mess, judging by all the Clone Wars and Age of the Empire stuff we're getting. I can't see a foray into the distant past in any meaningful way after leaving their comfort zone the last time hasn't worked out so well.
They're probably better of with what they're doing by developing the Mandalorian further, getting in some Ahsoka action and hopefully at some point actually having a look at the New Republic. I know it's not what many people want because of the ease and occasional need for existing characters to pop up, but there's plenty of untapped storytelling potential in the post-Imperial era.
Geifer wrote: The last time they tried even a slight time jump we ended up with a bad remake of A New Hope, and it only got worse from there. What's more, it doesn't look like they know what to do with that mess, judging by all the Clone Wars and Age of the Empire stuff we're getting. I can't see a foray into the distant past in any meaningful way after leaving their comfort zone the last time hasn't worked out so well.
They're probably better of with what they're doing by developing the Mandalorian further, getting in some Ahsoka action and hopefully at some point actually having a look at the New Republic. I know it's not what many people want because of the ease and occasional need for existing characters to pop up, but there's plenty of untapped storytelling potential in the post-Imperial era.
\shrug. There's plenty of untapped storytelling potential everywhere. Its just a matter of actually doing it. (I'm not sure what you mean by 'leaving their comfort zone.' When did they do that?)
I don't mind the concept of Andor (and actually I really look forward to the potential of more ground-level detail), but they actually had an entire multi-tiered plan for something new. Its time to start showing their work.
Geifer wrote: What's more, it doesn't look like they know what to do with that mess, judging by all the Clone Wars and Age of the Empire stuff we're getting.
How could they? Theres nowhere to go with that story and they so dramatically shrunk the setting down with the Sequel Trilogy that theres not a lot of interesting or inspiring threads for a new direction that wouldn't just be a further rehash of a story that was already told.
Voss wrote: \shrug. There's plenty of untapped storytelling potential everywhere. Its just a matter of actually doing it. (I'm not sure what you mean by 'leaving their comfort zone.' When did they do that?)
Maybe comfort zone isn't the best term. The sequels have Hand, Leia and Luke in them, but they're well past their prime and written to take a step back and let the new cast take the lead. Which is understandable and sensible, but then you look at the reception of Obi-Wan and how Diney announced its launch to be the best for a Star Wars show yet and it's clear how much appeal there is in the established characters taking front and center. Which isn't exactly great to see considering the quality of the show, but it has to be a pretty big consideration for more Star Wars going forward.
I don't disagree that if Lucasfilm put the proper amount of work into it, storytelling potential is everywhere. But considering that a lot of work has already been done with the existing stories and settings it seems a lot easier to expand on that in a meaningful way than to do something new that they have to put a lot of work in just to make it a) Star Wars not just in name and b) not just a wholesale copy of what we have with a new skin. That can't be easy, and I'm just going to say it, Lucasfilm doesn't handle harder things all that well. I don't think new shows or movies based on an entirely different era with no connection to the current one would be all that good without the crutch of established visuals and characters. And that's before any concerns of fan expectations. Who want to see more of their favorite characters instead of some weird new ones in a weird new setting they don't recognize.
Geifer wrote: What's more, it doesn't look like they know what to do with that mess, judging by all the Clone Wars and Age of the Empire stuff we're getting.
How could they? Theres nowhere to go with that story and they so dramatically shrunk the setting down with the Sequel Trilogy that theres not a lot of interesting or inspiring threads for a new direction that wouldn't just be a further rehash of a story that was already told.
How could they? I don't know. I don't even know how they got into that mess in the first place. Okay, that's a lie. I know that just fine. They hired J.J. Abrams, which is the movie producer equivalent of drunk driving. I don't know why there's no law against it.
I'm torn. Is it yay, only two more days? Or boo, still two more days? I can't decide.
I still have a good feeling about the show. It won't be flawless, but I have a feeling the important people at Lucasfilm were too busy screwing up Obi-Wan and wouldn't have had time to do the same with Andor.
First of the three done. First reaction, I quite like it. It has the look and feel of Star Wars, with recognizable elements and details, but in a place we haven’t seen and people we don’t know (other than the main dude I mean). It’s screen time has been brief so far, but this also might already be my favorite droid ever. The story is hilarious to me so far.
There’s some really good tension building, especially in the third episode.
It has a pretty unique tone as well. I think I’d call it bleak, and understated. Quite different to the derring do we’re used to from Star Wars. I’ll be genuinely interested to side wider opinions on that, as whilst I’d say it’s an objectively Good Show, that tone may prove a turn off for some.
There’s some really good tension building, especially in the third episode.
It has a pretty unique tone as well. I think I’d call it bleak, and understated. Quite different to the derring do we’re used to from Star Wars. I’ll be genuinely interested to side wider opinions on that, as whilst I’d say it’s an objectively Good Show, that tone may prove a turn off for some.
I just finished the first episode and I think I see what you mean about the tone. It was something I was worried about going into the show but so far it is actually working for me. Working quite well really. I am immersed, disbelief fairly well suspended. I am finding the characters interesting and believable. As good as the Mandalorian but without the Wild West vibe, more of a Cyberpunk vibe but one that so far works… unlike the cybernetic scooter riders in Book of Boba Fett. This is the kind of show that would have made Book of Boba Fett better. And it has turned around my low opinion of Cassian Andor already. Now he makes much more sense to me compared to how I felt watching Rogue One.
So my only real complaint that springs to mind after watching the first three episodes.
Spoiler:
Theyre doing that clanging thing and everyone is slamming doors and locking everything down, and mom gives her little speech about how intimidating that is but the real fear is when it suddenly stops. And then there’s the scene where all the clanging stops all at once, and I’m expecting mob retaliation. They saw the cops harass an old woman, one gal cuffed and bleeding, shot an unarmed man in the street. These cops are about to get “black hawk downed” I thought. But then just… nothing. The town is silent and it’s just Cass and his new friend doing their thing still.
Theyre doing that clanging thing and everyone is slamming doors and locking everything down, and mom gives her little speech about how intimidating that is but the real fear is when it suddenly stops. And then there’s the scene where all the clanging stops all at once, and I’m expecting mob retaliation. They saw the cops harass an old woman, one gal cuffed and bleeding, shot an unarmed man in the street. These cops are about to get “black hawk downed” I thought. But then just… nothing. The town is silent and it’s just Cass and his new friend doing their thing still.
X-wing down? At-at down? Imperial shuttle down? What would be the equivalent phrase...
I think that was more about putting the willies up them, as the situation was already going awry. Perhaps a gambit to persuade them to leave well enough alone.
seems like a grittier show than some of the later ones. Only first episode in but I'm liking it alredy! I could actually see my fiance taking an interest to this one as well, something I could never say about any of the movies (she finds the constant action scenes boring).
I'd say a serial form is a better fit for these makers than the Rogue One movie was..
Feels more like a UK series than Mandalorian or BOBF, which both had more lucasfilmy feel..
an air of impotent anger and frustration in the civvies. That’s something we’ve not really had the chance to see before, as typically we’ve followed movers and shakers, or folk being protected by them.
There’s almost a hopelessness vibe - and we’re yet to see any actual Imperials turn up!
I’m really enjoying this different style of SW Media, and I really hope it turns out to be widely appreciated. SW is of course a beloved setting, and it can definitely withstand varying tones of storytelling. But, if that differing vibe turns people off Andor? This might be it for such variation,
It would be interesting to see the Corporate Security Sergeant be right about it just being a form of posturing designed to intimidate them. It would be a nice change for the villains to be more competent. Although the single Corporate pilot to get a shuttle off the ground was pretty incompetent… as was the idea of leaving the vehicles unattended and not having active air support. So maybe I am being too optimistic here.
I was very surprised that Cassian Andor's “mother” expected the Republic to slaughter all of the kids in revenge. Not the Empire, the Republic. I can see the survivor making a mistake and shooting first without Republic troops being considered tyrannical but her concern about revenge killings says something specific about the Republic that seems different from how I have seen the Republic. I have not watched the Clone Wars series so perhaps I am missing something?
Her concern was more to do with the piracy? Whilst I don’t think it’s confirmed, I suspect they shot down the ship to rob it. And that’s why one of the crew shot the girl, assuming she was part of the Pirate Crew.
In turn, they couldn’t really leave Kassa behind, as he could face jail time when he’s not really that involved?
If his stated age is 26 in Rogue One then Cassian was 2 when the Empire was declared, the droid's just misidentifying the ship - possibly because it's a clone wars era vessel (they didn't show it, much to my disappointment)
Edit: Wait, no, scratch that, I did my math wrong. He'd be 7, so if this is literally the 'when I was six years old' moment then yeah, they're talking about the Republic. Late Clone Wars era.
I wouldn't say this doesn't feel like anything we've seen in Star Wars before - Star Wars has done bleak and tense before, notably in Alphabet Squadron which derived its tone by expanding on Rogue One's, which this show is also doing.
Handy of them to give me three episodes right off the bat, still need to digest it a bit but I like what saw.
I hope we see more of over-enthusiastic corpo-cop with the tailored uniform. He's a pretty good foil and I like the mix of comitted but lacking in general charisma.
I didn't expect a second Chernobyl actor here, but sure enough thats Alex Ferns looking remarkably less dirty than the last show I saw him in!
Her concern was more to do with the piracy? Whilst I don’t think it’s confirmed, I suspect they shot down the ship to rob it. And that’s why one of the crew shot the girl, assuming she was part of the Pirate Crew.
In turn, they couldn’t really leave Kassa behind, as he could face jail time when he’s not really that involved?
Ah! It had not even crossed my mind…
Spoiler:
… that they were pirates that attacked the ship rather than scavengers. That may tie in with the comment about Cassian's father being “hung in the square”. Interesting that I did not piece that together myself. Thanks.
The Inspector has a bit of “Gorman” going on but is different enough to make me curious to see how he develops as a character. I really liked the scene with him and his boss. Reminded me of some conversations in my past and put me in mind that this villain will likely be something of a cautionary tale… good intentions corrupted and all that. But also his verbal focus on the victims being employees rather than people may just be a coincidence or could be some clever writing. Either way he is already more interesting than any of the New Order officers of the last three Skywalker movies.
Not sure if this helps provide an explanation or muddies the water further but...
Spoiler:
Those yellow fellows in the crashed ship were wearing Separatist insignias on their arm bands.
My guess...
Spoiler:
Separatist ship, made out to look like a republic ship (even stolen from the republic) with a bio-weapon onboard. Something goes wrong, they crash. The weapon enters the planet's ecosystem which gets covered up by the Empire as a mining disaster. Looters come in, find Cassian, assume the bodies outside are republic officers without the full picture, leave with him out of the goodness in their hearts.
Captain Joystick wrote: Not sure if this helps provide an explanation or muddies the water further but...
Spoiler:
Those yellow fellows in the crashed ship were wearing Separatist insignias on their arm bands.
My guess...
Spoiler:
Separatist ship, made out to look like a republic ship (even stolen from the republic) with a bio-weapon onboard. Something goes wrong, they crash. The weapon enters the planet's ecosystem which gets covered up by the Empire as a mining disaster. Looters come in, find Cassian, assume the bodies outside are republic officers without the full picture, leave with him out of the goodness in their hearts.
Or maybe he is misremembering it.
Interesting!
Spoiler:
I had not sussed out the insignia but should have figured out it might be important given the camera time spent focusing on it. Still, even if they are Separatists… it seems odd to think Republic troops would do revenge killing unless I am completely off base with current Star Wars lore.
I had not sussed out the insignia but should have figured out it might be important given the camera time spent focusing on it. Still, even if they are Separatists… it seems odd to think Republic troops would do revenge killing unless I am completely off base with current Star Wars lore.
Depends who you ask.
Spoiler:
Republic troops are only the good guys to Republic aligned people. Separatists see the Republic as aggressive and warmongering, unable to accept their sovereign right to start up their own republic (but with hookers and blackjack) and have every reason to lament the losses they suffer at the hands of the Republic. There's a Clone Wars episode that shows the rare view of a CIS senator in a civilian setting as opposed to just the military and Sith controlled leadership you usually see.
I could very well see people who have lived outside the Republic or had a beef with it for some reason to look very critically at its role during the Clone Wars, get their news from Separatist sources and totally buy into the idea that Republic troops would commit massacres.
No idea if that's what's actually going on in the show, but the setting has certainly set the potential for such views up in the past. It may also not be the worst way for Cassian adjacent characters to be aligned, since the Republic transformed into the Empire. That would give continuity to his grudge and fight.
So, those were pretty good. Quite slow, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. The security chief is an interesting character because he's a True Believer™ and thinks everything he's doing is for the betterment of everyone - security and order and discipline and all that. Let's hope this show is mature enough to:
A). Not turn him into a moustache-twirling villain with a baby stapled to his forehead.
... or...
B). Not have him immediately turn to the "good" side like so many other prominent Disney Star Wars "bad" guys.
Am I the only one annoyed at the fact that Andor was't able to get that Imperial device out of the Warehouse of Impossibly Chained Engines? That bothered me. As did calling Separatist personnel "Republic" officers.
Either way, good start, with the only real issue being that this show wouldn't be nearly as interesting if they hadn't released the first three at once. If you need three episodes to really get you into a story then you have pacing problems.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Am I the only one annoyed at the fact that Andor was't able to get that Imperial device out of the Warehouse of Impossibly Chained Engines? That bothered me.
Would it be better to see him succeed at everything he does and the bad guys fail as hard as they possibly can? You know, as usual? That's been one of the bigger issues with a lot of Star Wars stuff. I don't need that in Andor.
I think it's a statement, just like the
Spoiler:
murder of the second corp cop.
How often do we get complaints that Disney Star Wars doesn't allow the protagonist to be of dodgy character, let alone an outright villain? In Andor it's made clear right from the start that the murderous terrorist gets to act like a murderous terrorist.
I see losing the thingamajig in much the same way. Cassian could have been handed unmitigated success, but instead he's allowed to lose. At least to a degree.
I see these things as conscious efforts to establish what we can expect of the show, and in my opinion it looks promising. If the rebel can lose, maybe that allows the Imperial adversaries to look competent, perhaps even outright scary. Actually let them be portrayed in a way to show not only why they are worth fighting, which we usually get enough of, but why that fight demands sacrifice and caution instead of just roflstomping them like the chumps they are.
For this reason I like that the show starts out with corporate security as the adversary. They don't have to be particularly competent in dealing with Cassian as they would have precious little experience with terrorism and guerilla tactics, although they are at least allowed the dignity of thinking their actions through and trying to be clever about it It creates room for properly trained Imperial soldiers and special forces to provide setbacks to the rebels down the line without relying on random success or failure as the plot demands.
Also, how was he supposed to get out of there with the thing? He wasn't wearing a coat, was he?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Either way, good start, with the only real issue being that this show wouldn't be nearly as interesting if they hadn't released the first three at once. If you need three episodes to really get you into a story then you have pacing problems.
Take your time, but hurry up about it?
Andor has twelve episodes. I don't have a problem with the first three acting as a pilot that introduces the main characters and lays out the situation. There's still more episodes left than in a full Mando season. I don't think they need to rush anything.
Spoiler:
Also I think it's neat that they take the time to set up emotional trauma for the bad guy and give him on screen motivation to turn from, speculative as it is for the time being, a devoted by the book security officer to a fanatic driven by revenge who will happily be employed as a useful, motivated tool by the big bad Imperial who takes charge of the situation, only for that fanaticism to ruin Imperial plans in the end.
I much prefer that we are shown such character development instead of getting a cookie cutter raging loonie like Third Sister and are expected to just go with it. Much more interesting this way.
They’re also setting the tone. As I said above, Andor is tonally quite different to anything SW has attempted on the big or small screen.
Normally I get a slight toe curling when we’re promised something will be “dark and gritty”, and for good reason. But Andor has a bleakness and sense of lost hope we’ve not been treated to before.
I think this is best represented
Spoiler:
when the drumming is going on. You can see indecisiveness in the folk. A desire to stand up to these corporate bullies, but a fear of Just Making Things Worse.
For me that plays into the “it’s when it stops you need to worry” thing. For the Naughty Corp Cops, it’s purely psychological terror in the end. The fear they’re about to get mobbed by the civilians. But…..in the end? Nothing Happens.
Whether Andor’s adoptive Mum was genuinely expecting something to happen we don’t know - but if she was? It adds to the depressive air, as she realises there’s just not the fight she was expecting left in her friends and contemporaries.
There’s clearly anti-that particular establishment sentiment, but there’s no spark of rebellion just yet.
Ooooh. A thought occurs. This is 5 BBY yes? That’s.. around the same time as Rebels kicks off, when rather than an organised resistance, it’s all cells with varying links to each other.
If my timeline is right there, I do wonder if the shenanigans going on on Lothal around the same time will be referenced, with that spark igniting rebellion elsewhere. Even the baddies clearly state things are formenting in their little bubble of influence.
Ooooh. A thought occurs. This is 5 BBY yes? That’s.. around the same time as Rebels kicks off, when rather than an organised resistance, it’s all cells with varying links to each other.
If my timeline is right there, I do wonder if the shenanigans going on on Lothal around the same time will be referenced, with that spark igniting rebellion elsewhere. Even the baddies clearly state things are formenting in their little bubble of influence.
Spoiler:
Yes, it's 5 BBY and at about the turning point where localized discontent transforms into wider, organized and openish rebellion.
I don't know how Andor will work in terms of time, if there are any significant time jumps going to happen, but it would be another year and change until Ezra beams out his speech from season 1. It would be neat if that turned up in Andor.
I largely agree with you Geifer. The only place I think I see it a bit differently is…
Spoiler:
The shooting of the second Corporate Security Officer. I did not see that the action of a muderous terrorist. There is no terrorism because their is no political agenda in his action. This scene struck me very differently than the way he killed his informant in Rogue One. I did not see a necessity in that death but I could see him stuck in this one. The system is corrupt, he knows this. He will not get a fair trial because of the very things the senior Corp Sec officer said to the Inspector. Too much around the incident making the Corporation look bad. I consider myself a fairly law abiding, moral person and even I would have been tempted to take the same action in the same situation. It does make me wonder why he does not kill the Inspector later, even when encouraged by the Rebel recruiter (sadly I forget his name). I find it truly fascinating how things could have gone so differently if the rookie Inspector had listened to his experienced supervisor. I hate lies and cover-ups but sometimes you have to wonder when the spirit of the law might outweigh the letter of the law. Discretion as they saw in law enforcement circles. And yet, that is a slippery slope where you find yourself having increasingly bad things happen as you try to use the ends to justify the means, ie torture, execution and terrorism for example. I think we will see that explored in depth in this series with assassins, spies, smugglers and saboteurs fighting Imperial tyranny.
Anyway it is good for cops, public governmental law enforcement or private (security guards) to think about more than just the written rules and remember whom they are supposed to truly serve. Obviously the private aspect can confuse the matter as it becomes a question of just whose security is paramount… the employees or managment/shareholders.
I guess we might see more exploration of the sort of benefits of corruption, compared to dealing with a puritanical zealot.
Spoiler:
The Big Boss wanted to draw a line under the whole affair, because whilst yes two employees were killed? They were killed whilst they themselves were involved in crime.
Keep the corruption hidden and you maintain some level of respectability and control. Let it be known your Theoretical Paragons Of Moral Virtue were in a brothel (illegal), and trying to shake down/mug a civilian (illegal) and then got their arses kicked by a Joe Bloggs (embarrassing), and that’s all just ammo to any detractor. Especially when The Big Boss admits he himself frequents said (illegal) brothel.
And on my previous speculation?
Spoiler:
Just remembered that Ezra now has a live action actor cast for Ahsoka. If we do get his broadcast from Rebels? What’s the chances that’ll be his debut?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I guess we might see more exploration of the sort of benefits of corruption, compared to dealing with a puritanical zealot.
Spoiler:
The Big Boss wanted to draw a line under the whole affair, because whilst yes two employees were killed? They were killed whilst they themselves were involved in crime.
Keep the corruption hidden and you maintain some level of respectability and control. Let it be known your Theoretical Paragons Of Moral Virtue were in a brothel (illegal), and trying to shake down/mug a civilian (illegal) and then got their arses kicked by a Joe Bloggs (embarrassing), and that’s all just ammo to any detractor. Especially when The Big Boss admits he himself frequents said (illegal) brothel.
And on my previous speculation?
Spoiler:
Just remembered that Ezra now has a live action actor cast for Ahsoka. If we do get his broadcast from Rebels? What’s the chances that’ll be his debut?
Fair point mate.
Spoiler:
I missed that the Big Boss frequented the brothel but yeah, good point about his corruption involves hiding the truth because it benefits their Corporate bosses and their Imperial overlords. It is corruption nonetheless. Justice seems to be something truly lacking and for me it is always a question of just how long will people tolerate a sense of injustice before taking action.
It will be interesting to see how this show interacts with Ahsoka.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: I largely agree with you Geifer. The only place I think I see it a bit differently is…
Spoiler:
The shooting of the second Corporate Security Officer. I did not see that the action of a muderous terrorist. There is no terrorism because their is no political agenda in his action. This scene struck me very differently than the way he killed his informant in Rogue One. I did not see a necessity in that death but I could see him stuck in this one. The system is corrupt, he knows this. He will not get a fair trial because of the very things the senior Corp Sec officer said to the Inspector. Too much around the incident making the Corporation look bad. I consider myself a fairly law abiding, moral person and even I would have been tempted to take the same action in the same situation. It does make me wonder why he does not kill the Inspector later, even when encouraged by the Rebel recruiter (sadly I forget his name). I find it truly fascinating how things could have gone so differently if the rookie Inspector had listened to his experienced supervisor. I hate lies and cover-ups but sometimes you have to wonder when the spirit of the law might outweigh the letter of the law. Discretion as they saw in law enforcement circles. And yet, that is a slippery slope where you find yourself having increasingly bad things happen as you try to use the ends to justify the means, ie torture, execution and terrorism for example. I think we will see that explored in depth in this series with assassins, spies, smugglers and saboteurs fighting Imperial tyranny.
Anyway it is good for cops, public governmental law enforcement or private (security guards) to think about more than just the written rules and remember whom they are supposed to truly serve. Obviously the private aspect can confuse the matter as it becomes a question of just whose security is paramount… the employees or managment/shareholders.
Spoiler:
I like to use the phrase murderous terrorist as a reminder that in universe, the freedom fighter angle we are used to when we are treated to rebel motivation is not the only and probably not even the majority view. I think it's important to consider that to common, law abiding citizens random acts of sabotage, vandalism, destruction and yes, murder of Imperial security forces are all blatant acts of lawlessness that may negatively impact their safe and peaceful lives. Thus terrorism. Rebel methods are a point of contention between Mon Mothma and Saw Gerrera that I expect we'll see reiterated in Andor. It was more of a general comment about rebels as a whole, but you are right, at this point in time Cassian isn't an integrated rebel yet and hasn't earned the terrorist label. So far he's just a common criminal.
Regardless of that, the death of the second corp cop is without a doubt murder. Cassian kills an unarmed man begging for his life who posed no immediate threat to him, only to cover up his actions and escape the consequences thereof. There is a lot of moral mitigation going on for the benefit of the character in the viewers' eyes. The cops are absolute asses, engage in illegal activities themselves and the death of the first one was an unfortunate accident. The situation is set up to leave Cassian without good options because by law he is at least guilty of manslaughter. Given that we can at least suspect some level of corruption in corporate security at the time and see it confirmed a bit later in the office scene, in court the lead up to that death could easily be spun into attempted bribe, then resisting arrest and deadly assault after the officers attempted to arrest him for the bribe. All the while keeping the officers dodgy acts covered up. There is plenty of moral justification for why Cassian can't submit to the authorities and finds himself forced to commit one further criminal act by way of denying any possibility of a fair trial (that he'd likely lose on two of the points mentioned earlier, resisting arrest and manslaughter, and for which he'd go to prison for a very long time).
It's a nice example of questioning if law and justice are the same, and if an unlawful action to escape injustice can be considered just. That's the kind of thing I wanted to see in Andor, and I'm happy that this stuff is in the show.
It's also fun that the murder didn't have the desired effect, Cassian is still identified and hunted and it may have actually made things worse for him by motivating the law enforcers further.
Edit. I forgot my thoughts on the inspector's good fortune.
Spoiler:
I see that as Cassian being the whatever it takes type out of necessity rather than convenience. He can't trust the cop to keep his word and believes by shooting him, he can throw off the authorities and just walk away unidentified. He has a lot to gain by staying off the authorities' radar and does his best to make it happen. Later when he could shoot the inspector, there is nothing for him to gain. The officer is not crucial to the security operation, he is no immediate threat, one less security officer in the galaxy isn't going to make a difference and he has every intention of just getting the hell out of there and it won't matter how the inspector is incapacitated. He doesn't have to kill the inspector, so he doesn't.
You could speculate that it may also be a tactical consideration. If the inspector complies and remains silent because he wants to survive the experience, he'll be bound and muffled and that's that. If Cassian pulls the trigger, who knows who'll hear the shot?
But I like to think it's a display of conscience, at least primarily.
AduroT wrote: I doubt it? Maybe just the voice, but they’d have to CG the face to make up for the age difference.
The broadcast was voice only to the best of my knowledge, so in my opinion the question is how well the actor's voice matches that of Ezra's voice actor, and if they succumb to compulsive fiddling and want a closer match or they are fine with animated, teenage Ezra and live action adult Ezra coexisting.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: I largely agree with you Geifer. The only place I think I see it a bit differently is…
Spoiler:
The shooting of the second Corporate Security Officer. I did not see that the action of a muderous terrorist. There is no terrorism because their is no political agenda in his action. This scene struck me very differently than the way he killed his informant in Rogue One. I did not see a necessity in that death but I could see him stuck in this one. The system is corrupt, he knows this. He will not get a fair trial because of the very things the senior Corp Sec officer said to the Inspector. Too much around the incident making the Corporation look bad. I consider myself a fairly law abiding, moral person and even I would have been tempted to take the same action in the same situation. It does make me wonder why he does not kill the Inspector later, even when encouraged by the Rebel recruiter (sadly I forget his name). I find it truly fascinating how things could have gone so differently if the rookie Inspector had listened to his experienced supervisor. I hate lies and cover-ups but sometimes you have to wonder when the spirit of the law might outweigh the letter of the law. Discretion as they saw in law enforcement circles. And yet, that is a slippery slope where you find yourself having increasingly bad things happen as you try to use the ends to justify the means, ie torture, execution and terrorism for example. I think we will see that explored in depth in this series with assassins, spies, smugglers and saboteurs fighting Imperial tyranny.
Anyway it is good for cops, public governmental law enforcement or private (security guards) to think about more than just the written rules and remember whom they are supposed to truly serve. Obviously the private aspect can confuse the matter as it becomes a question of just whose security is paramount… the employees or managment/shareholders.
Spoiler:
I like to use the phrase murderous terrorist as a reminder that in universe, the freedom fighter angle we are used to when we are treated to rebel motivation is not the only and probably not even the majority view. I think it's important to consider that to common, law abiding citizens random acts of sabotage, vandalism, destruction and yes, murder of Imperial security forces are all blatant acts of lawlessness that may negatively impact their safe and peaceful lives. Thus terrorism. Rebel methods are a point of contention between Mon Mothma and Saw Gerrera that I expect we'll see reiterated in Andor. It was more of a general comment about rebels as a whole, but you are right, at this point in time Cassian isn't an integrated rebel yet and hasn't earned the terrorist label. So far he's just a common criminal.
Regardless of that, the death of the second corp cop is without a doubt murder. Cassian kills an unarmed man begging for his life who posed no immediate threat to him, only to cover up his actions and escape the consequences thereof. There is a lot of moral mitigation going on for the benefit of the character in the viewers' eyes. The cops are absolute asses, engage in illegal activities themselves and the death of the first one was an unfortunate accident. The situation is set up to leave Cassian without good options because by law he is at least guilty of manslaughter. Given that we can at least suspect some level of corruption in corporate security at the time and see it confirmed a bit later in the office scene, in court the lead up to that death could easily be spun into attempted bribe, then resisting arrest and deadly assault after the officers attempted to arrest him for the bribe. All the while keeping the officers dodgy acts covered up. There is plenty of moral justification for why Cassian can't submit to the authorities and finds himself forced to commit one further criminal act by way of denying any possibility of a fair trial (that he'd likely lose on two of the points mentioned earlier, resisting arrest and manslaughter, and for which he'd go to prison for a very long time).
It's a nice example of questioning if law and justice are the same, and if an unlawful action to escape injustice can be considered just. That's the kind of thing I wanted to see in Andor, and I'm happy that this stuff is in the show.
It's also fun that the murder didn't have the desired effect, Cassian is still identified and hunted and it may have actually made things worse for him by motivating the law enforcers further.
Edit. I forgot my thoughts on the inspector's good fortune.
Spoiler:
I see that as Cassian being the whatever it takes type out of necessity rather than convenience. He can't trust the cop to keep his word and believes by shooting him, he can throw off the authorities and just walk away unidentified. He has a lot to gain by staying off the authorities' radar and does his best to make it happen. Later when he could shoot the inspector, there is nothing for him to gain. The officer is not crucial to the security operation, he is no immediate threat, one less security officer in the galaxy isn't going to make a difference and he has every intention of just getting the hell out of there and it won't matter how the inspector is incapacitated. He doesn't have to kill the inspector, so he doesn't.
You could speculate that it may also be a tactical consideration. If the inspector complies and remains silent because he wants to survive the experience, he'll be bound and muffled and that's that. If Cassian pulls the trigger, who knows who'll hear the shot?
But I like to think it's a display of conscience, at least primarily.
AduroT wrote: I doubt it? Maybe just the voice, but they’d have to CG the face to make up for the age difference.
The broadcast was voice only to the best of my knowledge, so in my opinion the question is how well the actor's voice matches that of Ezra's voice actor, and if they succumb to compulsive fiddling and want a closer match or they are fine with animated, teenage Ezra and live action adult Ezra coexisting.
Again Geifer you make some excellent points.
Spoiler:
As a former cop I find the law versus justice debate fascinating and it is good to see it explored on screen. As is the debate between freedom fighter and terrorist. There are some in law enforcement today who are very keen to see any attack on police as a form of terrorism. I am unconvinced lawlessness itself is a form of terrorism but it is a compelling argument. But then I am not keen on different rules for dealing with terrorism compared to general criminality. It is a slippery slope of putting government before the citizen.
I still can't believe Disney (a big corporation) would go with the angle that the Empire actually made things better in some ways. I could imagine them letting corporations have free reign compared to the staid republic era generating a lot of wealth for core worlds and elites (just like our world), cheaper food and cheap standardised gear (than the more bespoke Republic era) and by having big centralised budgets drive research and development in the way the republic never could (like the US post WW2). Yes their are less personal freedoms, but the (human) population of the worlds that matter are actually getting something for it.
As to this series in particular they did a far better job of drawing the average viewer in at the start, establish the character with his actions to cover up the crime, establish the rebellion as having no qualms about recruiting such people (ends justify means), showing who has the power on a world and colouring in the world better (such as the interaction about park and ride fees).
I remain hopeful it won't descend into big magic cloaks and cross eyed baddies that ensure you can walk through a hundred of them and not get hit... the shoot out showing an awful lot of shooting and not much hitting by the goodies has me somewhat hopeful. Lets hope he channels Rogue one (fight the empire in a stand up battle and lose) and the start of new hope (the stormtroopers are actually accurate in that engagement) and not the more recent clownforce guff.
It would be interesting to see the Corporate Security Sergeant be right about it just being a form of posturing designed to intimidate them. It would be a nice change for the villains to be more competent. Although the single Corporate pilot to get a shuttle off the ground was pretty incompetent… as was the idea of leaving the vehicles unattended and not having active air support. So maybe I am being too optimistic here.
I was very surprised that Cassian Andor's “mother” expected the Republic to slaughter all of the kids in revenge. Not the Empire, the Republic. I can see the survivor making a mistake and shooting first without Republic troops being considered tyrannical but her concern about revenge killings says something specific about the Republic that seems different from how I have seen the Republic. I have not watched the Clone Wars series so perhaps I am missing something?
Well they might have left the shuttle secured but the local crews with their knowledge just unlocked it... Not having air support up, why would you bother in a simple smash and grab with 12 guys to catch 1?
Also at that point the republic has fought a vicious war for quite some time and I suspect has fought increasingly nastily, especially where non aligned groups had the temerity to kill one of their officers. They have reached a point where killing off the jedi and declaring an empire isn't met with opposition.
It would be interesting to see the Corporate Security Sergeant be right about it just being a form of posturing designed to intimidate them. It would be a nice change for the villains to be more competent. Although the single Corporate pilot to get a shuttle off the ground was pretty incompetent… as was the idea of leaving the vehicles unattended and not having active air support. So maybe I am being too optimistic here.
I was very surprised that Cassian Andor's “mother” expected the Republic to slaughter all of the kids in revenge. Not the Empire, the Republic. I can see the survivor making a mistake and shooting first without Republic troops being considered tyrannical but her concern about revenge killings says something specific about the Republic that seems different from how I have seen the Republic. I have not watched the Clone Wars series so perhaps I am missing something?
Well they might have left the shuttle secured but the local crews with their knowledge just unlocked it... Not having air support up, why would you bother in a simple smash and grab with 12 guys to catch 1?
Also at that point the republic has fought a vicious war for quite some time and I suspect has fought increasingly nastily, especially where non aligned groups had the temerity to kill one of their officers. They have reached a point where killing off the jedi and declaring an empire isn't met with opposition.
Spoiler:
I don't have a problem with the security force leaving their shuttles locked but unattended. Presumably they have no history of uprisings in their system, and for all they know they're going after a lone murderer. They would expect citizens to respect the law. And if not that, they'd expect them to respect the law, or else. Either way, the idea of actual action against the authorities was not a real concern among them until people started banging metal pipes, at which point it they had long left behind their shuttles. Even then they were mostly proven right and nothing came of it, except one guy taking action.
That's worth noting about the shuttle incident. It wasn't the populace or a crew fighting back, it was one guy who tried to help his buddy. Which, when you look at it, was a pretty stupid idea. If they had apprehended Cassian as planned and happened to put him on that shuttle, dude would have killed his own friend. Not the best plan, but not something I'd criticize either. He hardly had time to think his actions through.
I really can’t tell if the crew were yellow skinned near-humans, or humans who’s skin had turned yellow, possibly due to plague or biological weapon?
Spoiler:
I wondered about that, but in hindsight the next thing I said as the scene progressed was, "don't go into the yellow cloud. Yellow cloud bad." Combined with the comments of the scavengers I'm leaning towards chemical agent having bad effects on humans.
I'm not going to watch that again to do the detective work (at least not now), but I wonder if that wasn't Seppies in spite of the badges but Republic black ops trying to pull something dodgy with a false flag chemical attack. They got found out, shot down and the scavengers expect a Republic clean up force that tries to keep that little episode under wraps.
If they aren't then the make up department needs a refresher. I had the same thought of yellow or human till you could see inside their ears and sometimes their necks normal skin colors. So either make up came off/they forgot the ears OR human.
Hulksmash wrote: If they aren't then the make up department needs a refresher. I had the same thought of yellow or human till you could see inside their ears and sometimes their necks normal skin colors. So either make up came off/they forgot the ears OR human.
Well don’t forget the Wookie feet and Trandoshan forearms from Boba Fett. Their alien costuming can get pretty lazy.
They're meant to be humans. They're all wearing gas masks, there's stuff of the same colour leaking from the ship before anyone entered, and the scavengers were worried about the gas still being there.
Albertorius wrote: One thing that actually weirded me out was Andor's description during the murder investigation:
"A man with dark features asking for a Kenari girl"
...dark features? I... what?
Dark hair, dark eyes. As opposed to fair features, which would be blonde hair, blue eyes.
You mean like a full half at least of the other characters shown in the series so far?
Also, I wouldn't call that "fair features" either. I'd call that "blonde, blue eyes". Same as with this, "dark hair". It mostly felt like they needed to say "he's hispanic" and didn't know how.
Not that he looks particularly "hispanic" either. He just looks like a guy.
I would really NOT define this guy as "a man with dark features", unless I was being more than a bit racist.
It’s….almost as if the person working in the (illegal) brothel…the only eye witness to the two blokes following their killer….might have a vested interest in kinda cooperating with The Powers That Be, whilst being vague enough to not outright rat on a patron. As one kind of suspects both are Good For Business.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s….almost as if the person working in the (illegal) brothel…the only eye witness to the two blokes following their killer….might have a vested interest in kinda cooperating with The Powers That Be, whilst being vague enough to not outright rat on a patron. As one kind of suspects both are Good For Business.
Right, I'm sure that's it. And why when the picture came up nobody though "hey, this kid don't really look like having dark features".
It’s literally a thing that refers to hair color, like how you’d have old movies refer to that clearly white dude as tall, dark, and handsome. He had black hair.
But he does have dark features, as described above?
It doesn’t really matter what you might call them - it’s still a valid description of someone with dark hair and eyes. Especially as you pointed out, in-universe they wouldn’t use Hispanic.
AduroT wrote: It’s literally a thing that refers to hair color, like how you’d have old movies refer to that clearly white dude as tall, dark, and handsome. He had black hair.
This is literally the very first time I've seen "dark features" as referring to hair and eyes, instead of skin tone and facial features. But I guess we could use it for about half the cast right?
I mean, all these would be men and women of dark features, then, right?
Spoiler:
But they still managed to single him out pretty easily.
It doesn’t really matter what you might call them - it’s still a valid description of someone with dark hair and eyes. Especially as you pointed out, in-universe they wouldn’t use Hispanic.
He also don't look particularly "hispanic" either.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Incidentally, the spanish dub says "un hombre de tez morena", which means, quite literally, "a dark skinned man".
That's just a dub being crap. Nothing unusual there. But dark features definitely has been used to refer to hair and eye colour. Because they are features of the head and face
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: That's just a dub being crap. Nothing unusual there. But dark features definitely has been used to refer to hair and eye colour. Because they are features of the head and face
That's the official dub. And what "dark features" mean. You don't usually say "features" wehn talking about hair, in my experience. You talk about... you know. Features.
Without any visual aid whatsoever, if someone tells me "a man with dark features", I would most certainly not look for someone like Diego Luna, but more probably a dark skinned guy.
Watched it last night.. me and the better half thought it was very good. I'm picking up the Blade Runner vibe someone mentioned up above. The corp security were thuggish but could be seen as just doing their job (the team leader got pissed at the guy who killed Mr friends-with-benefits) and Cassian has so far shown himself to be a serial killer.
So, what in Cassian's life has made him so callous of his friends and surrogate family that he uses, abuses and runs out on them? Is he a sociopath? A psychopath?
But more importantly, how did the town's population know how to stop drumming all at the same time?
Even official dubs are usually trash. Yes? Hair is a prominent feature of the head and if you're trying to find someone hair colour, style, length and so on is a key feature.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Even official dubs are usually trash. Yes? Hair is a prominent feature of the head and if you're trying to find someone hair colour, style, length and so on is a key feature.
Are they more important than skin tone, when talking features? One would think that's usually the first definitory thing, and you'd go to hair color, style, length and so on later. Yes?
Plus, again, they're saying "dark features". Dunno about you, but when I hear "features", "hair color" is not really the first thing I think about.
Or is it that we're assuming everyone's white here, in Star Wars?
To me, "features" dictates as eyes, nose, mouth and hair as actual features of the face and head. Oh and ears. Skin tone would be something entirely separate.
And don't try and be clever and drag race assumption into this
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: To me, "features" dictates as eyes, nose, mouth and hair as actual features of the face and head. Oh and ears. Skin tone would be something entirely separate.
And don't try and be clever and drag race assumption into this
Right, of course, This has nothing at all to do with race, surely. That's why they use it specifically to define the "hispanic" guy without saying "hispanic".
Surely.
Incidentally, about the dub, I haven't even watched the dub, I just checked it to see how it was translated, but... I'm curious now: how many dubs do you actually watch of this kind of stuff, being an english speaker? Because almost all of the Disney dubs I've watched have been absolutely flawless, regarding translation and localization.
All the impressions I got were from the original audio, just to be clear.
Anyways, it's just something that jumped at me when watching the show, and got a bit of a "what the feth" reaction from me. The show itself is quite good, so far.
I've watched more than a considerable amount of anime dubs and then going back and rewatching the originals, it's more than abundent that stuff gets changed. Even in your own example, it's been changed from what the show said to what the dub decided to show.
Anyway, if you want to continue arguing the toss, send it in a pm and not here.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I've watched more than a considerable amount of anime dubs and then going back and rewatching the originals, it's more than abundent that stuff gets changed. Even in your own example, it's been changed from what the show said to what the dub decided to show.
Anyway, if you want to continue arguing the toss, send it in a pm and not here.
Nah, it doesn't really matter. Let's just discuss the show. Which so far has been really good.
Loving the hammer clock guy, by the way. That was cool.
So, what in Cassian's life has made him so callous of his friends and surrogate family that he uses, abuses and runs out on them? Is he a sociopath? A psychopath?
I did like how they highlighted the damaged lives left in his wake.
I watched the first 3 episodes last night and I have to say I absolutely loved it. So nice to have a more "mature" offering from Star Wars, that still fits perfectly as a Rogue One prequel. Weirdly, as I was watching, I kept thinking it actually reminded me of the Jason Bourne films and it turns out that's because it's directed by Tony Gillroy, who did the Bourne films....
However, my friend, who was watching it with me, lost interest very quickly and spent most of the episodes checking their phone and then couldn't follow what was going on. And I'm seeing a lot of social media posts saying they found the episodes too slow and too boring...
Which is a real shame, because I loved the fact it was a slow burn and there was actually some good time spent on world building and character introductions.
I also feel the pace is meant to show that the Rebellion didn't just happen overnight, and as one of the antagonists states, the feelings of rebellion are slowly fomenting and will eventually boil over.
I just hope the negative criticism doesn't spoil the chances of similar, more thoughtful/mature, Star Wars content.
Also - during the Kenari flashback scenes - I didn't have any subtitles, so didn't know what was being said, but could still follow along - should there have been subtitles?
StraightSilver wrote: Also - during the Kenari flashback scenes - I didn't have any subtitles, so didn't know what was being said, but could still follow along - should there have been subtitles?
I don't think so, no. Not that it needs it either.
Cool, I didn't think so but I've had issues with Disney+ before where you have to switch on closed captions/subtitles and wasn't sure if my settings were wrong.
StraightSilver wrote: I watched the first 3 episodes last night and I have to say I absolutely loved it. So nice to have a more "mature" offering from Star Wars, that still fits perfectly as a Rogue One prequel. Weirdly, as I was watching, I kept thinking it actually reminded me of the Jason Bourne films and it turns out that's because it's directed by Tony Gillroy, who did the Bourne films....
However, my friend, who was watching it with me, lost interest very quickly and spent most of the episodes checking their phone and then couldn't follow what was going on. And I'm seeing a lot of social media posts saying they found the episodes too slow and too boring...
Which is a real shame, because I loved the fact it was a slow burn and there was actually some good time spent on world building and character introductions.
I also feel the pace is meant to show that the Rebellion didn't just happen overnight, and as one of the antagonists states, the feelings of rebellion are slowly fomenting and will eventually boil over.
I just hope the negative criticism doesn't spoil the chances of similar, more thoughtful/mature, Star Wars content.
Also - during the Kenari flashback scenes - I didn't have any subtitles, so didn't know what was being said, but could still follow along - should there have been subtitles?
I quite agree. The reason I care so much, that I am so vocal, is that I want to see more things I enjoy being made. And this show I enjoy.
I always have to turn the dang subtitles off. Mine always defaults to turning on Chinese subtitles for some reason.
But yes, dark features means hair and eyes. It isn’t a terribly Commonly used description, but just because You haven’t heard it before doesn’t mean it’s incorrect.
As far as how they singled in on Cass, it wasn’t that vague description, but also his planet of origin, and someone who knew his secret origin called them and ratted him out.
Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I certainly hope that the decision makers at Disney and Lucasfilm don't think that a fanbase is so homogeneous that it is easily caught with overly narrow and focused stories and forego catering to different subsets of the fanbase with a diverse offering because of that. They've got the laser sword crowd hooked, but why wouldn't they attempt to expand from there?
But yeah, just in case that's a vain hope, I also hope Andor is a commercial success because I'd like more, at least based on what I've seen so far.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: That's just a dub being crap. Nothing unusual there. But dark features definitely has been used to refer to hair and eye colour. Because they are features of the head and face
That's the official dub. And what "dark features" mean. You don't usually say "features" wehn talking about hair, in my experience. You talk about... you know. Features.
Without any visual aid whatsoever, if someone tells me "a man with dark features", I would most certainly not look for someone like Diego Luna, but more probably a dark skinned guy.
Not trying to drag this discussion back up, but as an FYI, if you want to denote skin color, the word you're looking for is complexion. Feature(s), as noted, is for other stuff.
Dark features, light/fair complexion is a suitable description of Cassian/Diego Luna.
Albertorius wrote: Loving the hammer clock guy, by the way. That was cool.
AduroT wrote: Oh, yeah, really enjoyed the tower bell. I do wish it had some more variance in tone, or we were given a longer playing of it to hear more of it.
I agree. So much about the bell ringer is awesome… except the sound made.
Bell Ringer Guy seems to be very popular on the internet right now, that's for sure. Good for him, he loves what he do.
I'll echo the sentiment that it's nice to see Star Wars trying to do a darker, grittier story. I've said before thats why I've been raving about those books, but as they have more shows running in parallel I think it's a great idea they explore that here.
However, my friend, who was watching it with me, lost interest very quickly and spent most of the episodes checking their phone and then couldn't follow what was going on. And I'm seeing a lot of social media posts saying they found the episodes too slow and too boring...
Which is a real shame, because I loved the fact it was a slow burn and there was actually some good time spent on world building and character introductions.
That is fascinating. Because most of the streaming stuff has the most plodding slow plot. It should be a meme. Yet here I thought this show trotted briskly along. Is this us being hooked and then the pace not mattering too much? I know a lot of people thought Rogue 1 was slow, yet it fitted the plot and pacing of a 1970's war movie pretty accurately and as that was what I grew up watching I never noticed.
Hope it doesn't end up being a kind of fan niche and gets wide appeal and views, because selfishly I quite like Star Wars and it is hard too when they make those other films and bad TV series.
Captain Joystick wrote: Bell Ringer Guy seems to be very popular on the internet right now, that's for sure. Good for him, he loves what he do.
I'll echo the sentiment that it's nice to see Star Wars trying to do a darker, grittier story. I've said before thats why I've been raving about those books, but as they have more shows running in parallel I think it's a great idea they explore that here.
Now give me a fighter pilot show!
We could have a series on Han Solo’s time in Tie Fighter pilot academy!
I hate R1. It’s a very, very good looking movie with tissue-thin characters. This show has the great aesthetics of R1 with characters that, so far, are much more interesting and well-developed.
In the first three episodes, I’d say the show is more successful in showing us the genesis of an Imperial fanatic than a Rebel radical.
Rewatching Andor, ready for the next episode tomorrow.
Spoiler:
What are we thinking of his overall origins?
From the flashbacks, we see the world already seemingly abandoned - though it’s mentioned there was an Imperial mining accident, despite the flashbacks seemingly being during the Clone War era.
Then there’s his people. We didn’t see any adults, with it all seeming a bit Lord of the Flies or Mad Max 3. And the clothing doesn’t look handmade, rather adapted from what I suspect are flight suits.
So there seems to be some kind of as yet I revealed part of the overall back story.
I would imagine for the general population various areas would have been calling the militarised, centralised republic an Empire long before they made the formal declaration, and certainly now a lot of old republic things would be referred to as Imperial, just because fascist empires like to give out a timeless vibe.
As for R1 characters - yes, agree. But then for me they were meant to be stereotypes, not fleshed out, as that is pretty much the War film genre. (For the ultimate expression of this watch the dirty dozen - all stereotypes but so well done you don't question the wafer thin plotting for them and go with the flow.)
Just finished my second view of the first three episodes. Happy to say it stands up to a second viewing.
I’m again struck by its carefully subdued tone. The people of Ferrix feel trapped, and somewhat hopeless.
The drumming/alarm sounding makes sense to me, as I take it as less “to arms, to arms”, and more “this could be bad, everyone get off the street”.
Given the chimes seem to be in set places, I wonder if that’s part of the overall planning. Each drummer has their own station, likely with line of sight to hand and shops. Once they’ve seen their immediate neighbours batten down their hatches, that drummer can hide away too.
So, when all the drumming stops, Cassian feels safe in using explosives, as any friends and neighbours etc are off the street.
It could also double up as a low tech way of tracking those causing the threat as they move around. Again that would help innocents and that avoid trouble, as they’d have some idea which streets and plazas to avoid.
And so Cassian’s adoptive Mum’s cryptic “you don’t want to see what happens when it stops” was just a way to keep the security dudes on tenterhooks. They’re already acutely aware they’re badly outnumbered. And that alarm could be a “get the militia, the redcoats are here” type thing.
It’s also possible eyes were watching when the doofus shot the Not-Owen-Lars-But-Looked-Like-Him. Because his CO didn’t order the shooting, and immediately disarmed his man and removed him from the field? That could’ve saved lives, proving the shooting an act of nerves and misfortune over malevolence and bullying.
Definitely. I think it worked really well for more dedicated SW fans, as it played on our expectations (Rebels/Partisans bursting into action in 3…2…1…………..1….1? Oh….)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s also possible eyes were watching when the doofus shot the Not-Owen-Lars-But-Looked-Like-Him. Because his CO didn’t order the shooting, and immediately disarmed his man and removed him from the field? That could’ve saved lives, proving the shooting an act of nerves and misfortune over malevolence and bullying.
I actually liked to see this, as it's something you don't usually see in this kind of stuff.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s also possible eyes were watching when the doofus shot the Not-Owen-Lars-But-Looked-Like-Him. Because his CO didn’t order the shooting, and immediately disarmed his man and removed him from the field? That could’ve saved lives, proving the shooting an act of nerves and misfortune over malevolence and bullying.
I actually liked to see this, as it's something you don't usually see in this kind of stuff.
I quite agree. When showrunners talk about “subverting expectations” it too often means “something I will not like”. In this case, both in how the shooting was handled as well as nothing appearing to happen (yet) from the banging community alarm, I was pleasantly surprised by how my expectations were subverted.
And yes Mad Doc Grotsnik…
Spoiler:
I agree with your observations on the Lord of the Flies take on young Cassian. I look forward to seeing that further explored.
I think it also helps build the SW Universe, as we see some level of oppression, a populace somewhat chaffing under it, but lacking a spark to really tackle it.
Lothal had Kanan’s cell. Jedha at least latterly had Saw’s cell, and so on and so forth.
But Ferrix? I got the distinct feel they wanted to fight back, but dare not risk it, because that was just a Security Patrol. And knowledge of Cassian’s kills/murders (POV) would be widespread, so at least some assumption they had legitimate business.
There must be hundreds of planets like Ferrix. A miserable, downtrodden population, but without that final spark to actually rise up and do something.
Indeed, the Galaxy wouldn’t get that spark until after the Battle of Yavin, where with the dissolution of the Senate, the destruction of Alderaan and the Rebel Victory changed perceptions of The Empire, from “merely” oppressive, but trying to help to “ooer, what a bunch of evil gits”. But to see average folk chafing under the yoke? Adds to it all.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And they’ve absolutely nailed the look and feel of Imperial Officers, whilst injecting a level of sheer mundanity about their lives.
Spoiler:
ISB officers to boot. Being the kind of officer that's politically highly indoctrinated, it's great to see the pettiness at ISB. Good stuff.
Pretty fun to see Mon Mothma having to deal with a bored spouse, too. Like she hasn't enough real problems.
A rather sudden change from the first three episodes in setting. Entirely new places, almost entirely new peoples, really makes the first three feel like a… prologue? Definitely like the first three were very much intended to be viewed in one go right from the start.
I suspect that Andor is set up like the later seasons of Clone Wars and relies heavily on arcs. As a twelve episode season, perhaps even three episodes per arc. The show has two seasons to get in the five years from its beginning to Rogue One, so the idea of showing highlight events over multiple episodes and then skipping to the next one makes sense. Not that there was much of a skip yet, but as an origin story they'd have to spent a good amount of time on the beginning.
The AKs are super annoying though. Even taking the clip out and sticking a silly scope on them would make them less obvious as AKs.
I agree. Star Wars has such a good history with taking real life guns and greebling them so they look sci-fi but plausible - the original's Sterlings, Mausers and Lewis guns looked so good. I kind of get why they used them - nothing says insurgent like an AK after all - but I'd have liked to see some sort of dressing to make them slightly less mundane.
Main point of interest for me would be the ISB muscling in entirely on Ferrix and seemingly it’s system, with the Officers we met last week being unceremoniously dumped.
I’m wondering how that’s gonna shake out in the end. The senior guy (who wasn’t directly involved) strikes me as one to maybe keep an eye on. Captain Itsallmyfault? Went home to his Mum, seemingly in disgrace. Might he fall into the trope of Imperial Defector here? Certainly given his stickler nature, if the Imperials get proper heavy handed with the locals.
Any predictions on how badly Cassian’s crew are going to botch things?
I bet Cass’ crew actually pulls it off, probably not a flawless victory, but a win nonetheless. They need that big win to start setting up the actionable intel that establishes the pattern of incidents required by Officer Stop-Quoting-The-Manual. Officer Mom’s-Basement will get pulled in by Officer Ladder-Climber for a chance at revenge because he had eyes on the scene when the box incident went down. I don’t think he’ll go defector too easily, given he started out wanting Justice for slain officers, and only saw Cass kill yet more officers when they went to arrest him, with locals who were hostile to his authority. I feel he’s more likely to see the Empire’s methods as necessary to maintain order.
Am I the only one who was slightly disappointed that we get to see the ISB and it's not Ysanne Isard running it? Would have been an interesting way to bring in a favorite villain from Legends.
AduroT wrote: I bet Cass’ crew actually pulls it off, probably not a flawless victory, but a win nonetheless. They need that big win to start setting up the actionable intel that establishes the pattern of incidents required by Officer Stop-Quoting-The-Manual. Officer Mom’s-Basement will get pulled in by Officer Ladder-Climber for a chance at revenge because he had eyes on the scene when the box incident went down. I don’t think he’ll go defector too easily, given he started out wanting Justice for slain officers, and only saw Cass kill yet more officers when they went to arrest him, with locals who were hostile to his authority. I feel he’s more likely to see the Empire’s methods as necessary to maintain order.
Spoiler:
Agreed on both points.
Cassian probably gets to save the mission after one of the others botches it to establish that he actually was worth recruiting and saves the money and part, but not all of, the merry band. He'll get a taste of that "the mission comes first, every other consideration is secondary" thing that will define his work in Rebel Intelligence. Successfully sticking it to the Empire in a big way will get him to join up for good, while losing some dudes he only met two days earlier isn't something out for himself Cassian would lose any sleep over. Losing people he cares about like his foster mum is only going to happen once he's firmly on board with the rebellion.
Junior Inspector, just Junior now that he lost his job, is so set up to get recruited by Agent Hot Stuff to circumvent her bureaucracy problem. He even moved into the neighborhood so she can get to him after hours without long trips she'd have to explain to her superior.
Am I the only one who was slightly disappointed that we get to see the ISB and it's not Ysanne Isard running it? Would have been an interesting way to bring in a favorite villain from Legends.
Spoiler:
Not that I know who that is, but isn't the major in the show only running a division or subdivision of ISB? You wouldn't put a middle rank like that in charge of the whole organization.
I'm thinking Colonel Yularen might be the wrong division at this point. I think in Rebels in he was stated to have trained Kallus, which implies that he's teaching when he's not in the field. And the incident ISB has to deal with may be too low level for a senior operative like him to get involved in.
But yeah, would be nice to see him in some fashion.
The AKs are super annoying though. Even taking the clip out and sticking a silly scope on them would make them less obvious as AKs.
I agree. Star Wars has such a good history with taking real life guns and greebling them so they look sci-fi but plausible - the original's Sterlings, Mausers and Lewis guns looked so good. I kind of get why they used them - nothing says insurgent like an AK after all - but I'd have liked to see some sort of dressing to make them slightly less mundane.
Other than that though another excellent episode.
It was really really weird. By all means use a stock weapon, but not one of the most iconic stock weapons in the world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: I bet Cass’ crew actually pulls it off, probably not a flawless victory, but a win nonetheless.
The AKs are super annoying though. Even taking the clip out and sticking a silly scope on them would make them less obvious as AKs.
I agree. Star Wars has such a good history with taking real life guns and greebling them so they look sci-fi but plausible - the original's Sterlings, Mausers and Lewis guns looked so good. I kind of get why they used them - nothing says insurgent like an AK after all - but I'd have liked to see some sort of dressing to make them slightly less mundane.
Other than that though another excellent episode.
It was really really weird. By all means use a stock weapon, but not one of the most iconic stock weapons in the world.
I'm on the greebling side of the argument. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving space insurgents space AKs as long as you have a prop maker space up the gun without losing the recognizable look.
I have to wonder if they simply didn't think it was necessary or if the issue might be that they lack the skill. Some of the alien masks in previous shows weren't all that well done either.
I might just be able to overlook it once the novelty wears off, though. It's hardly a unique entry in the questionable props department. After all, Snowspeeder seat belts in The Empire Strikes Back had bubble wrap stuck to them. Probably somebody in the late 70s figuring stuff looked sci-fi as feth without worrying what future generations might think.
The women's razors in Ep1 always stand out to me as something they didn't really cover well. If I've learned anything painting Legion models its that a remarkable amount of Star Wars tech is just some glued together garbage spray painted black.
Hey look, a reference to my cultural and ethnic background with Highland Clearences!
Literally the first thought in my head.
I know! I thought we were on Planet Machu Pichu with the ponchos and everything but actually we were on Planet Scotland the whole time!
The AKs are super annoying though. Even taking the clip out and sticking a silly scope on them would make them less obvious as AKs.
They did it on purpose. It ain't like SW prop designers don't know what they're doing. I would guess that it was on purpose either to say 'insurgents' or to hint that maybe these guys ain't the good guys we're expecting, the AK having been the bad guy gun of the last 70+ years after all.
No. Shan’t. You’ll sit there and ready my awful “jokes”. Just be thankful I’m not James Corden.
Ahem. Anyways.
I am super psyched Andor seems to be universally enjoyed. Not just because it’s a nice change to be able to chat about Star Wars without someone coming in to remind us that They Didn’t Like It for the umpteenth time, regurgitating the same points yet again.
But because the show itself is a pretty big tonal shift. That it’s definitely found it’s audience and is receiving justified praise could bode very well for the future of the franchise.
See….Star Wars has always had a Star Wars feel. I can’t really define it beyond that. But they’re largely feel good films. Andor has taken what makes ESB so popular, and built upon it.
Dare we hope this leads to a MCU type approach, where films like Thor Ragnarok, Avengers Assemble and Winter Soldier can sit happily together as a wider canon, despite being really quite different movies? I do. I have that hope. Call it….aha A New Hope.
Look I told you you’d sit there and read my bad jokes and still be happy that at least I’m not James Corden!
Given what a lovable bunch of grumpy old get off my lawn types we are here on Dakka, Andor has indeed received a lot of positive reactions and not very much criticism at all, so far.
I blame the production crew. They seem hellbent on doing a good job instead of doing whatever the Obi-Wan guys have been doing. I don't know how they can expect to earn the lasting disdain of the fanbase like that. Bunch of amateurs!
The secret sauce of Star Wars has always been that you can take pretty much any good movie and reskin it with the Star Wars aesthetic. Part of the problem with the franchise has been how stuck its been trying to force stories out of its few unique elements, where it shines brightest when it tells any story it wants coming up with unique ways to include new elements in the setting. Making something familiar feel alien or fantastical is where the series shines, IMO.
I genuinely believe the longevity of Star Wars, and the love for it was a product of quite unique circumstances.
I wibbled about this earlier in the general Movies thread, so this will be a potted version.
ANH, ESB and ROTJ all came out before Home Media really and truly found it’s feet. So folk couldn’t easily watch it outside of the cinema.
But….ANH caused a revolution in Marketing. Yes movies had had toys and that before. But never quite like Star Wars. If you look at the very original line? The background characters made up a pretty solid percentage. So background, they had daft names, like Walrus Man, Hammerhead and Snaggletooth.
Yet, for a generation of kids (not me, sadly. Born 1980, so really I’m the generation after) only had those toys to recreate their memories of the film.
Even betterer? Despite doing ridiculous money, Kenner didn’t cheap out for later releases. If you compare the range from ANH to the range from ROTJ? The toys just got objectively better. Superior likenesses in sculpt, colours and accessories. More involved vehicles and play sets.
Pretty much all the Expanded Universe will stem from those kids, grown to adulthood. The tales they told with their toys serving as inspiration for Fairly Official Stories in the very universe that so captured their imagination.
Yes, there are elements of ANH which were firsts. For me, it will always be the Cantina Scene. Just a pub, but filled with wildly varying (and very cheaply created) denizens. That scene provided at least three of the original figures. And so according to my wider theory, much of the love. It made the universe more real. Not just humans. Not just Star Trek random head bumps (or back then, pointy ears and slightly racist facial hair). Actual monstrous looking beings just…..existing. Having a nice wee pint after a day of doing their job.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: They did it on purpose. It ain't like SW prop designers don't know what they're doing. I would guess that it was on purpose either to say 'insurgents' or to hint that maybe these guys ain't the good guys we're expecting, the AK having been the bad guy gun of the last 70+ years after all.
I'm not buying that because it doesn't track with any other modified IRL weapon we've seen so far. Han Solo is one of the big heroes of Star Wars and uses a modified Mauser, the rebels on Hoth use modified STG 44's, the heavy weapons Stormtrooper in ANH uses a modified Lewis Gun, Jyn Urso uses a modified Luger and Cassian uses a modified AR-15 in Rogue One, and the E-11 and Dh-17 (i.e. the iconic Stormtrooper and Rebel blasters respectively) both used modified Sterling SMGs.
There isn't a precedent set for which side uses "baddie" guns from real life because both sides of the GCW used props made from a variety of weapons from a variety of manufacturers.
It's also not like there aren't props from the many other Star Wars shows still kicking about that could have been used, or like I suggested just stick some random bits on and try to hide the bits that obviously make it an AK. It's just plain lazy and it's my only big gripe because it's so glaringly obvious that the weapons don't fit the setting.
LunarSol wrote: The secret sauce of Star Wars has always been that you can take pretty much any good movie and reskin it with the Star Wars aesthetic. Part of the problem with the franchise has been how stuck its been trying to force stories out of its few unique elements, where it shines brightest when it tells any story it wants coming up with unique ways to include new elements in the setting. Making something familiar feel alien or fantastical is where the series shines, IMO.
I think that's a pretty good assessment. Star Wars has some meat to its setting, but it's very true that it's a cool skin on any good story and that is where it finds its success.
Or doesn't if the writers figure or are mandated all it takes is a string of scenes trying to make beloved characters look good with no concern for the quality of the larger story.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Actual monstrous looking beings just…..existing. Having a nice wee pint after a day of doing their job.
Not just existing. Coexisting. Peacefully, in a movie entitled Star Wars. It's a great little hint that there can be more to the setting than just plucky rebels fighting evil empires. It's the kind of thing that sparks the imagination. I'd consider that a pillar of longevity.
Not just existing. Coexisting. Peacefully, in a movie entitled Star Wars. It's a great little hint that there can be more to the setting than just plucky rebels fighting evil empires. It's the kind of thing that sparks the imagination. I'd consider that a pillar of longevity.
This is why the Vong never worked for me. Star Wars has a post globalization (galaxization?) setting. Evil invading aliens is as jarring to the setting as they would be in a political thriller or sitcom.
The ISB meeting seems…so petty and pathetic. Like a bunch of middle managers having a make-work meeting, where they discuss a job they themselves aren’t capable of doing.
That the blonde Lass is doing her job, but all we get is squabbling over jurisdiction rather than collaborative action is just….almost tragic. She can see a possible pattern. But the bureaucracy just stonewalls her.
I am halfway through episode 4… but have been rewatching from the start so Mrs. GG can get caught up. It is a very pleasant surprise for me that my only real complaint are those AK prop weapons. Everything else is stellar! For me anyway…
Mrs. GG is not as keen as I am unfortunately, she seems put off by so many of the things I am enjoying… such as the tone (too unremittingly darkly dystopian), the color palette, and the music. I think it might be a little too “close to home” with its “gritty realistic” atmosphere for her to truly enjoy with a sense of pleasure. But then she also prefers that I do not use bloodied casualty figures on in the table in our gaming.
I think the campy Pulp vibe of the original Star Wars helps take some of the sting out of the horrors in that story, kind of like the Fallout universe… and Andor is a bit more explicit on just how grim things are just as the Rebellion gets started.
Episode 5 is very much a "calm before the storm" episode, building up to the heist. Still some great moments though.
Spoiler:
Mon Mothma is queen of snark. When her husband asks her why she hasn't told him about the new foundation she's set up (presumably to launder money for the Rebellion), she replies "I didn't think you'd be interested, it's charitable." Absolutely brutal.
The earnest young revolutionary Nemik expounding his manifesto.
We get to spend some time with Syril and his mum, and suddenly everything about him makes sense.
We see Luthen isn't quite as put together and sure of himself as he puts across in his two public personas as he frets like an expectant parent waiting to hear about the heist.
Lieutenant Gorn using a clever bit of reverse psychology to ensure that the freighter hangar being understaffed for the heist can't be traced back to him, as he "reluctantly" caves in to his NCO's recommendation in the interests of morale. All anyone will remember is that he threatened to cancel everyone's leave and make them work an extra shift.
Mrs. GG is not as keen as I am unfortunately, she seems put off by so many of the things I am enjoying…
Yes, its always a surprise for me to discover what I think is great about x,y,z diverges wildly from what the mass market likes (seeing films and comparing to box office takings is often like this...). I do hope this is a success and it means we get better programmes down the line, but I can imagine the core audience prefers kids under cloaks.
Another solid episode. I pretty much echo what the above posters said, but would add…
Spoiler:
Mon and Pop Mothma’s clothes. There was something about them, then it clicked. They’re luxurious versions of Owen and Beru Lars from ANH. Even Kid Mothma’s togs kind of echoed Luke’s clothes to some extent.
And on a poorly personal note? The TIE Fighter buzzing them on its patrol again reminds me of the motherland. As a proper tiny kid, we used to go to St Fillan’s Caravan Site for our holidays. Not exactly Highlands, but away from the population belt. There was (possibly still is?) a RAF base in the area, and the jets would fly over. So reminiscing.
I think the campy Pulp vibe of the original Star Wars helps take some of the sting out of the horrors in that story, kind of like the Fallout universe… and Andor is a bit more explicit on just how grim things are just as the Rebellion gets started.
You have to wonder whether the look of a lot of that earlier sci-fi was down to the prohibitive expense of creating alien & futuristic worlds. Producers have a lot more money to play with now, especially for an indentured franchise like Star Wars. Fans aren't content with the old 'hero's journey' style of storytelling anymore, and they won't accept superficial premises, not 40+ years on from the birth of the idea. Everything is checkable against a universe of sacred lore: it's much harder to be spontaneous. New ideas can potentially come across as spurious, even sacrilegious to that lore. So I think it's natural that these types of additions to the canon will always be grittier and more realistic. I don't think a pulpy, flash vision of Star Wars would work in live action now, although they're ticking that box with the cartoons.
As I mentioned in a much earlier post, Andor exploring a different feel or mood for Star Wars feels important.
I’ve watched everything Star Wars, except the Holiday Special. And Andor is the first without much derring do so far. We’ve had one shoot out so far, and even that had a fairly “real” feel to it. Nobody standing out in the open. No imbalance in overall accuracy.
Dark and gritty is a term so used and abused of late it’s largely lost all meaning. But Andor has earned it. It’s almost the Scandi Crime show of Star Wars.
I can get why some might put off by that, and entirely fair enough. If you’re tuning in expecting Star Wars By The Numbers? Andor could leave you completely cold.
But I argue this is exactly what Disney needed. It’s well made, scripted and acted. Whilst fairly little happens in any given scene, there is a slowly ramping up tension to it. I feel invested in it.
Will Andor survive the heist? Yes of course he will. He’s got 19 more episodes and Rogue One to go before he gets all ded. Will the heist be successful? Probably. Perhaps not entirely successful, and I’m expecting something to go awry with the escape side of it. Will his entire crew survive? I’d…..genuinely be surprised if not everyone makes it. The True Believer I reckon is toast myself.
But….genuinely who knows? This is largely uncharted territory for Star Wars.
Dakka seems to have universally embraced it. And I’ve not really seen anyone online moaning about it (as opposed to criticism. Even this post is a criticism, albeit a positive one).
Hopefully it’s seeming success will lead to Disney being more willing to take further stylistic risks. To explore what else Star Wars could be. That doesn’t mean “make everything dark and gritty”, for that leads to the woeful state of the DCEU. But to see that Star Wars can carry the same variety of tones as the MCU? That gives me hope.
As mentioned earlier, episode 5 is the calm before the storm episode. You know what that means, right? It's time for a round of Death Bingo 2000! Anyone care to play?
Spoiler:
Miss Leadership Skills - She'll survive just for the guilt tripping potential of seeing too many under her command die.
Murder Girl - She's presented as the professional of the group, and I think they'll play it straight and let her do some heavy lifting and make it out alive.
Wanna Live, Get A Shiv - He'll get stuff done and could make it, but at the last moment things go bad and he sacrifices himself for the cause, for the others, and because somebody has to stab those Imperials in the eye.
Manifesto Boy - No chance he doesn't die. He'll be the one who blows it due to feeling the need to do something super unprofessional, in the name of doing good.
Captain Dour - Dies to an overdose of responsibility as he dutifully leads the team through the heist and insists to be the first to take a hit to make something vital happen, like buy them time when the alarm is sounded halfway through loading the credits.
Gone Native, Feeling Good - The turned Imperial remains in command after dutifully, but unsuccessfully, fending off a rebel attack. Gets commended and is set up as a future contact for Cassian, but is secretly suspected by everyone's new favorite ISB agent.
Total body count: 3
AduroT wrote: If True Believer dies, his book will survive, most likely in the hands of Andor somehow.
I could see them playing it differently. He'll be a more powerful symbol if people can insert their own beliefs into the martyr's lost manifesto, instead of finding that his crazy scribbling is gibberish. His doodad may make for a good memento for Cassian, though.
Not gonna lie. Fell asleep probably for 10 minutes. Outside of some of the testing of Andor and just showing how outclassed these rebels by comparing them to an experienced thief it was a snoozer. Though the LT Inspectors mom is a riot.
It's pretty odd how polarised this show is - this week's was my favourite episode so far, whereas my mate stopped watching it after about 15 minutes...
I just think the direction, cinematography and writing are all spot on and I am loving this type of Star wars story.
Honestly I don't think you need to argue anything. The pacing is fine for what it does, namely world building and character development. It's part of what makes the show great to me. It's just that the one thing you can't get around is that many people who watch Star Wars expect a fair amount of pew pew whoosh laser action, and not having to wait for it very long either. They've been well catered to in the past, and it's only logical that such expectations should be widespread and associated with the brand name. It's not that Star Wars was strictly mono-genre before Andor, but the ingredients for Star Wars' successful entries tended to be the same. Andor steps away from that by being a full on spy thriller. For its genre, it does everything right so far (says I). It's just that the genre isn't usually associated with Star Wars, and when it is touched on...
Spoiler:
...it might just be kids under cloaks level, right?
So, I guess I did a bit of arguing of my own there. But you're still not required to do any, alright?
It’s more for those who found it slow, to point out it’s meant to be, rather than the show losing its own plot and filling in as best it can.
I do wonder what those will make of it if they go back and binge? I mean, I think we can all agree we’re expecting a Pay Off next episode. And I can’t see that not being a bit more Star Wars by the Numbers.
But is it as simple as binging all your troubles away? I don't feel qualified to answer that as I didn't get bored at all, but you'd have to sit through an hour of people talking against a scenic backdrop either way. I mean, maybe I am qualified. I watched Titanic and Pearl Harbor. I don't know if having the lead up to the stuff you expect from the titles cut into episodes would make it worse, but I can tell you for sure that sitting through them in one go while you wait for the good stuff certainly didn't make it better.
On the pay off, in spite of my choice of characterization I should hope there is some Star Wars by the numbers about to happen. I am all in favor of good balance. Don't just throw out the old in favor of the new. Have both and make them mesh. I want to believe that Andor will shine in this regard as well. It's already been established that
Spoiler:
the garrison is only 40 strong and troop quality isn't the greatest. I take that as an announcement that the Stormtroopers there won't be crack shots and we shouldn't expect too much of them, but I'd be (unpleasantly) surprised if they didn't get portrayed to be more professional than they usually are. So far the production crew seems to understand nuance and establishing credible threat quite well, and I hope that understanding extends to Stormtroopers.
Well, binge could be watching two episodes at a time. So part 5 and 6, watched back to back May get better results than a week apart, where 5 could feel like waffling filler dragging like a seal’s ringpiece to those wanting Star Wars By The Numbers?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Yeah. Though I’d argue it’s pace is a result of deliberate decisions, rather than say, a three part story being stretched to six.
Good gods, it is so much better than the mindless filler streaming normally has.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Geifer wrote: As mentioned earlier, episode 5 is the calm before the storm episode. You know what that means, right? It's time for a round of Death Bingo 2000! Anyone care to play?
Well my guesses would be...
Spoiler:
Because I say so - going down. Leaving only Andor as the link to the boss
Silent but deadly - heroic yet grim death. Gotten zero development, so faceless enough archetype to lose
Bitter about stones - Dies after some kind of cathartic moment
The young hope - survives to meet the seedy nasty side of the rebellion (Saul) and lose faith
By the numbers - I think Disney won't kill the black guy immediately anymore
Lieutenant forever - given enough rope by ISB to hang himself
Total body count: 3
I would hope that the fact the stormtroopers in rogue 1 managed to gun down all the rebels (while still taking casualties), means the Imperials will be a threat and not mooks. I am more tired of the zero peril in the Disney star wars shows than even the kids under cloaks.
I think it’s also just an inherently interesting time period within Star Wars.
The Clone Wars are now mostly just a memory, and The Empire has, arguably, brought some kind of stability in the aftermath. And we’re just starting to see it tightening it’s grip, such as taking a single shoot-out as an excuse to take over from Corporate Security.
This of course ties in to Leia’s mouthing off to Tarkin about how the more they tighten their grip, the more systems will slip through their fingers.
It’s made it all a bit more gradual. That it wasn’t Corrupt Democracy to Horrific Autocracy in the blink of an eye.
Yet the pressure on the Common Folk is building. People are chaffing under the Imperial Yoke - they just haven’t yet found the strength to stand up for themselves.
Andor is following in the footsteps of Rebels, where we first saw different Rebel Cells start to organise and come together into a more cohesive whole. To go from nipping at the soft spots to a hammer blow victory such as Yavin (where The Emperor revealed his hand, and promptly lost his biggest hitting stick. The toy that fear of which would be his ultimate control).
Hence we see Andor’s adoptive crew feeling a bit….meek, I suppose. A handful of activists, a little help from the inside, and a pretty lofty goal.
Rogue One of course reminded us the Rebellion was undermanned at that period. And brave as they were, heroics can only carry you so far.
We also had the joy of seeing unorthodox, opportunistic tactics the (at least then) rigid Imperial approach were hard pressed against. Best example would be the Hammerhead totalling a pair of Star Destroyers in a risky manoeuvre (and I’m not even sure we explicitly see that ship survive).
And it’s something I feel under explored in Star Wars canon. The death by a million cuts. How the sacrifice and actions of a few could mess up Imperial plans.
The initial MacGuffin is explained in Part 4 (almost called it episode, but need to keep the right context!). Basically, it’s a means by which the wielder could identify fleet movements in a given area. Like a sort of tracking radar thing. Hence the lady from the ISB is so certain it’s theft is a sign of organised shenanigans, so spread out that no-one else has pieced that all together.
Curiously? We don’t even know she’s right. They could all just be random thefts of valuable objects. And so whilst we of course know the Rebellion is organising behind the scenes? She could be on a wild goose chase which, perversely, could be seen as proof there is no such organised rebellion.
Well we know Cassian didn't steal the starpath unit as part of any wider resistance - he just nicked it to sell and then sat on it for a while, saving it for a rainy day. Of course nothing says the other thefts aren't co-ordinated, but she's actually wrong about this one.
It's quite well done. I find myself perversely rooting for her because she's trying to do a good job against the odds, albeit for the wrong side. Same with Syril.
I dunno. Cassian knew where it was. And yes he nicked it for monetary gain.
But….what was it doing in a Breaker’s Yard? A place where ships go to be disassembled? And why was seemingly bleeding edge tech in a random, knackered old ship? Especially as, if memory serves, it wasn’t exactly hooked into its systems?
I posit someone else stole it, and stashed it away there for later pick up once the trail had gone cold - or managed to get themself caught/killed before they could move it on.
Now, the motivations of that person remain in question, but she could very well be right.
I thought he nicked it from the factory by strolling in as if he was meant to be there (off-screen) like he told Luthen, and stashed it in his little hideout in the breakers yard. I don't think it was actually installed in the wrecked ship - that's just where Cassian kept his stuff that he didn't want his mum to find.
That too is possible. I’ll need to go watch it again, but I’m pretty sure in the ISB it was said the item was pinched elsewhere, then turned up on Terrix?
Miss Leadership Skills - She'll survive just for the guilt tripping potential of seeing too many under her command die.
Murder Girl - She's presented as the professional of the group, and I think they'll play it straight and let her do some heavy lifting and make it out alive.
Wanna Live, Get A Shiv - He'll get stuff done and could make it, but at the last moment things go bad and he sacrifices himself for the cause, for the others, and because somebody has to stab those Imperials in the eye.
Manifesto Boy - No chance he doesn't die. He'll be the one who blows it due to feeling the need to do something super unprofessional, in the name of doing good.
Captain Dour - Dies to an overdose of responsibility as he dutifully leads the team through the heist and insists to be the first to take a hit to make something vital happen, like buy them time when the alarm is sounded halfway through loading the credits.
Gone Native, Feeling Good - The turned Imperial remains in command after dutifully, but unsuccessfully, fending off a rebel attack. Gets commended and is set up as a future contact for Cassian, but is secretly suspected by everyone's new favorite ISB agent.
Nevelon wrote: Could the black box mcguffin come from the downed ship on his homeworld, and just kept safe as a “just in case” thing until needed?
That's sort of what I assume personally, since its the most likely means of making the flashbacks relevant to the present but there's not really a firm connection outside of storytelling tropes.
"Andor", hmm? "Andor". Let me check what's playing. "Star Wars: The Clone Wars". That doesn't look like what you said. Are you sure you spelled it right?
It's refreshing to see people who stand in the open get shot, which is to say all people, not just Imperials. Also Imperials hitting stuff and all that. Quite good.
Loose cargo is the killer. Workplace safety, people! Come on, there's a manual and training courses!
Also fireworks! Everyone loves fireworks! Yay!
On a sad note, Death Bingo 2000 doesn't have a winner. We gave the crew too much credit.
Shoots the guy who suggested “sod it, let’s just split the loot then go our separate ways”.
Whilst Cassian seemingly wants out? He only wants his agreed price - nothing more, nothing less. He even offers to buy the Doctor’s shuttle, for more than market value.
So he has integrity and morals - he just isn’t in it for the Rebellion. Yet. Of course True Believer’s manifesto is going to play into changing his mind.
And massive, massive props for having both sides display competency. Both reasonably good shots. Both decent ruthless (True Believer was one I thought might crumble in the face of action, I was wrong)
Now for a general observation for those on the fence. As HBMC mentioned, this might play better binged. But, being so far split into two arcs of three episodes? Give the first three a watch. It’s pretty much self contained, but does lead into the next.
If you enjoy the tone, you’re good to go on the rest. If the tone just isn’t Star Wars to you, or you otherwise don’t enjoy it? You still get a largely self contained tale.
I think that might be the secret to its overall success. It’s….oddly accessible. When look as distinct tale, it’s pretty digestible and doesn’t, for my money, outstay it’s welcome. Each episode when viewed as part of a Three Act Story makes more sense than “this is episode 5 of 12 and not much has happened” in terms of pacing.
Shoots the guy who suggested “sod it, let’s just split the loot then go our separate ways”.
Whilst Cassian seemingly wants out? He only wants his agreed price - nothing more, nothing less. He even offers to buy the Doctor’s shuttle, for more than market value.
So he has integrity and morals - he just isn’t in it for the Rebellion. Yet. Of course True Believer’s manifesto is going to play into changing his mind.
And massive, massive props for having both sides display competency. Both reasonably good shots. Both decent ruthless (True Believer was one I thought might crumble in the face of action, I was wrong)
Spoiler:
I like that you can read it as Cassian being a stand up guy, and alternatively that he's realistic about what happens if he takes the money and splits (other than getting shot in the back because 80 million is better than 40 million). He was pretty nervous about having corporate security on his heels and he'd likely feel the same about the people he just robbed, who would be very motivated to come after him. And given how good Luthen has proven to be about knowing all there is to know about Cassian, he should have no illusions as to his chances of getting away.
Or in fact a mix of both as they're not mutually exclusive. Which is even better as he'll have to reconcile his beliefs and pragmatism, which gives him some (moral) stakes.
Excellent episode and you folks make some good points. The universal moderate competence was a refreshing change.
Spoiler:
Small thing but I really liked that the focus of the Imperial Colonel (an Engineer at that) when at gun point was to draw a gun and demand that the kid be released. Surprisingly humanizing. Although it still ends badly for him. Mrs. GG thinks things did not end so badly for the Commander's family but I think the Empire will seek to find scapegoats and unless the wife has connections in the Senate, her and her son are in for a rough future… perhaps a short future at that, considering it will look like her husband had a heart attack while helping steal the money…. unless there is video footage of the incident. Mrs. GG pointed out that there appeared to be no security cameras, perhaps because the show is trying to stay true to future tech as envisioned in the 1970's?
Cassian surprised the heck out of me when he shot the traitor. Seems the showrunner really took the fan loves for the “Han shot first” meme to heart. But then the fact that they guy turned out to be a selfish traitor surprised me as well. Mrs. GG said she saw it coming but I did not.
The show has done a good job of making characters I like and then killing them off.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Moderate competence all round, and I didn't expect the team to suffer quite so badly.
I believe someone else pointed out, currently the show can be viewed in 3 episode arcs. Wonder if that continues?
I believe the writers have said this is the case yes.
Saw it l last night, very much liked the portrayal of the imperials as being pretty decently competent and not just unnecessarily evil (just arrogant) and thought the writing was good (quite liked the guy playing the base commandant trying to keep his people alive, usually imp officers are portrayed as idiots or utterly rutheless).
Very much enjoying the series so far.
Not sure why people think its bad because it is slower paced, rushing everything with no context or character building is how we got the mess Rise of Skywalker turned out to be (and no, im not a sequel hater..Liked FA, thought LJ was 50/50 some good some bad, but BOY is RoS terrible)
Small thing but I really liked that the focus of the Imperial Colonel (an Engineer at that) when at gun point was to draw a gun and demand that the kid be released. Surprisingly humanizing. Although it still ends badly for him.
Yeah, that's pretty neat. Without forty years of Star Wars to inform you you'd be hard pressed to consider the rebels the good guys here.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Moderate competence all round, and I didn't expect the team to suffer quite so badly.
Surprisingly enough I got all the deaths right, except for the lieutenant whose motivation I mistook as wanting to keep hurting the Empire instead of trying to get out. Which is interesting considering his scene in the previous episode where he tries to shift the blame for the light guard during the festival. They sure got me with that one.
I'm still absolutely loving Andor, and this episode really felt like a pay off, but also it does seem every 3rd episode feels like a mini-finale and I'm perfectly happy with that.
One thought about this week's episode:
Spoiler:
I am wondering if the detour to the Doctor will turn out to be a mistake. Cassian had the final vote that decided they should risk it, but it didn't pay off, apart from revealing one of the crew's true motivations. So, from a plot point of view it might be more significant (or not). So what if the detour ends up being a mistake which ends with the Empire recapturing the cargo hauler with the payroll, and Cassian feels some sort of responsibility which means he has to stay with the Rebels a little longer. This would make more sense than being turned to the cause just by reading a manifesto.
I don't think it's going to be any one thing by itself. The manifesto may give him some ideas of why the fight is worth fighting. His recent experience may tell him that the rebellion isn't going to amount to anything unless it can uphold some standards and that he can help with that. He is probably going to be identified for participating in the heist and may be reminded that it's better to pick sides and have friends to back him up now that he's on the Empire's most wanted list. He may feel guilty that he as the gun for hire got out peachy while the idealists didn't.
Just enough little things that wouldn't sway him individually adding up to make him consider joining up after all.
Another odd observation, as I watch the latest episode of Andor again.
The blasters. They don’t sound Star Wars. At all. And yet….it works.
Just as the overall mood of the show is lower key, subdued and dare I say realistic? So is the blaster fire.
There’s a part of me that feels that should be a deal breaker. Star Trek Disco doesn’t feel like Star Trek, and that for some is a Deal Breaker. Yet, somehow, in a way my limited media literacy can’t articulate? It just….works. For Andor.
The visuals are there. Oh my are they there. But characters, blasters, soundtrack? None of it is Star Wars. Yet here it is. Warmly received. Well thought of. No sad gits taking a longer runtime to tell us why they don’t like it than the runtime of the thing they don’t like.§
I mean…the Doctor comes out of literally nowhere. Not a species I think we’ve seen before. Just sort of turns up as a plot device. But….fits right in.
This is a show that deals in subtleties Star Wars has never really bothered with in the Mass Market Media. But….it works. And I’ve not seen anyone criticising it negatively. By which I mean inventing things not to like about it.
What’s going on? Is this even the early 21st Century Internet anymore?
Come on sad act neackbeard basement dwelling weirdos. Come and have a criticism if you think you’re smart enough. And deity of your choice we know you think you’re smarter than everyone else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My favourite scene?
Mon Mothma addressing the senate.
Same old hover booths we know from the sequels. Same old echoing chamber.
Yet? No hubbub. No murmur of voices. As she looks around the chamber, many hover booths are entirely empty. Those that are occupied clearly aren’t hearing, let alone listening.
That all adds to Palpatine’s eventual dissolution of the Senate. Why keep it going, when no one turns up?
And as with Good Prequel stuff, begs a question. That question of “just how did Palpatine pull that bit off? How did he disengage worlds and systems from the democratic process to the point the don’t even bother showing up?”
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also also also?
It’s Star Wars…and six episodes in, we’re yet to have a Cantina Scene.
It should be a drawback. And yet….the whole of the thing is so compelling and boundary crossing in a very competent way nobody cares in that way.
No cantina scene? What do you mean? Pretty much the first location in episode 1 is this place with a central bar that serves drinks, and chairs and tables around the room. That's legit a cantina and totally not something else. I really don't know what you're talking about.
About the senate, that was certainly interesting. I imagine Palpi got his monarchy a fair bit of executive and legislative power in the intervening years and hollowed out the senate's importance by doubling down on the importance of committees to find decisions that already paralyzed the Republic. Committees are great since they're not public affairs and easily made up of people that can be trusted or bribed to act in the Emperor's best interest. Once it's established that debate and vote in the senate are more for show and only serve as publicity for reelections, senators wouldn't put much effort in senate meetings and possibly only show up for high profile debates. I believe Mon Mothma's speech was about some silly humanitarian thing? Who cares about that? Presence entirely optional, and if anybody asks? Senator of [insert your planet's name here] )was tied up in an important committee meeting where they worked hard to pursue the interests of their constituents.
Geifer wrote: No cantina scene? What do you mean? Pretty much the first location in episode 1 is this place with a central bar that serves drinks, and chairs and tables around the room. That's legit a cantina and totally not something else. I really don't know what you're talking about.
Can’t speak for others, but in the context of Star Wars a cantina scene is not just just a location that serves drinks. One of the things the original New Hope scene showed was that we were part of a larger galaxy, with all sorts of weird and bizarre aliens. Pan the crowd, see the variety out there. Not just a token guy with forehead ridges or fake ears, but far out guys/gals/things. I don’t think we get a lot of that in Andor. It’s just a lot of humans doing human things.
Don’t get me wrong, I think they are doing a great job of it. But I do think it lacks a little of the pan-galactic flavor of some other SW offerings though.
I suppose you have to account for the Disney factor with this totally legit cantina. The employees may be too eccentrically attired to allow any panning and seeing.
I haven't rewatched it yet, as I'd prefer to have the full season available before I do that, but I seem to remember that there are aliens in the streets, occasionally? Not on the nose like a cantina scene, but subtly present nonetheless. That works just fine for me.
On a completely unrelated note? How come given B-Wings we’re largely excised from Return of the Jedi because they were a bugger to film….the Special Editions never added in even a single scene of them doing their do!
Hera’s run was in the prototype. And we saw a clear issue with it’s composite beam which we can reasonably infer couldn’t be overcome.
Even more disappointing to me (and remember, I like the film) is that in Rise of Skywalker, we do see on in action, for a split second. Just enough time to see it blatted.
It’s always been my favourite Rebel ship because it looks so different and doesn’t really feature that heavily.
Of all the guff inserted into the Special Editions, you’d think that’d be something George Lucas would want sorted?
Even just digitally adding them here and there would’ve been nice to see.
AduroT wrote: I thought that was odd in Rebels they had the episode where they got it and how amazing it was and then you never saw it again.
To a degree, yes. But they have the already mentioned prototype explanation for it vanishing, and a theme of handing good gear over to Dodonna to save up for the big one. The Specters are small and somewhat peripheral, both on their own and as part of Phoenix group. And the way they burn through pilots and A-Wings probably doesn't inspire confidence that they'd keep badly needed ships intact for the eventual open war. So I'm okay with the B-Wing being a one off in Rebels.
I do take exception to Hera's opinion on it, though. I played X-Wing and Tie Fighter. That thing isn't slick. It flies like a bus.
This is a show that deals in subtleties Star Wars has never really bothered with in the Mass Market Media. But….it works. And I’ve not seen anyone criticising it negatively. By which I mean inventing things not to like about it.
What’s going on? Is this even the early 21st Century Internet anymore?
Who bets their engagement algorithms think the lack of complaints means no one likes it as they talk about it less?
I do take exception to Hera's opinion on it, though. I played X-Wing and Tie Fighter. That thing isn't slick. It flies like a bus.
Wasn't there a mission where you got to test fly it?
I can't say I remember since that was a quarter of a century ago. I do remember not liking buses (I got the same feeling in Squadrons) and that in the Rebellion every mission is a suicide mission. I prefer flying for the Empire.
This is a show that deals in subtleties Star Wars has never really bothered with in the Mass Market Media. But….it works. And I’ve not seen anyone criticising it negatively. By which I mean inventing things not to like about it.
What’s going on? Is this even the early 21st Century Internet anymore?
Who bets their engagement algorithms think the lack of complaints means no one likes it as they talk about it less?
I can't say I remember since that was a quarter of a century ago. I do remember not liking buses (I got the same feeling in Squadrons) and that in the Rebellion every mission is a suicide mission. I prefer flying for the Empire.
They were easier to hit...
Suicide wise I do remember the mission to clear a minefield in an unshielded ship.
Not sure what the Ferrix flashback/flash forwards were about overall. And the final flash forward to Cassian getting nicked? Kind of came out of nowhere.
We did finally sort of get Cantina Scenes. Mon Mothma’s reception and the beach.
Overall I’m still enjoying the sheer….mundanity of many scenes. Just folk living their lives, trying to get on with things.
ISB Lass is right though. By cracking down, they are playing into Rebel hands.
I liked it better than the usual “Cantina” scene, because instead of clustering them all together in one place they’re just out and about as a normal background part of society. Don’t have to stop and show them off, they’re just there.
The Empire even manages to make a cubicle farm more depressing. Pretty sure I would go insane working there.
I know ISB lady is a bad guy, but her actual competence at her job makes me want to root for her as well as her boss for recognizing her competence.
I wonder how long the time skip at the end was. Can’t have been Too long.
Not sure what the Ferrix flashback/flash forwards were about overall. And the final flash forward to Cassian getting nicked? Kind of came out of nowhere.
Spoiler:
A little disjointed perhaps. Murder Girl and Junior are kept around for future use, presumably, and while they aren't really doing anything at the moment, a few short scenes help remind everyone that they're still around. I'd consider that and the short part on Space Florida the only things that may not be very elegant. ISB scenes need to be there, Mon's party has been set up previously and needed to happen, and serves a purpose for acquiring funds that have also been talked about before. More exposition of Cassian makes sense considering someone recklessly named the show after him and has to at least pretend that it's about him, occasionally.
About the flashbacks, that's young Cassian seeing his foster dad getting into trouble with the Empire over just trying to help and call for moderation. He didn't just do the right thing, he acted in Imperial interest, but got punished for that by the Empire.
The other one is him trying to beat up four Stormtroopers with a stick (excellent idea, what could possibly go wrong) over his dad's death and I reckon that's the incident that got him sent to prison,
I think that's nice to see. We know from Rogue One that he hates the Empire and lost everything. It's not a bad idea to show it.
The small time jump to Space Florida is one of those things I figure are going to be necessary. I don't think it's anything major and we're just missing his arrival and picking up his new girlfriend, sitting back on the beach and such for a few days. We know he's going to join the Rebellion, and presumably seeing a retired Cassan doesn't add anything to that, unlike experiencing first hand that he can't outrun the Empire as another thing that finally gets him to join up.
Ah! Yes. Thank you for the reminder on those scenes, now they make sense to me.
Spoiler:
I particularly enjoyed him being arrested and receiving a hefty sentence for having done…..nothing. At all. The Shoretrooper was particularly well realised as fascist bully boy Police officer who’s already decided to Nick you, that just needs to figure out what sort of charge they can get away with.
Will give it a rewatch with your clarification.
Oh, also?
Spoiler:
I kind of liked his friend’s apathy. Not only did Cassian get her bloke killed? But his actions brought The Empire down on their heads. People literally just wanting to be left alone to live their lives, willing to put up with a private security force, and because of one man’s greed (some might say desperation), they now have a more totalitarian regime putting the boot to their throat
And again I’m struck by the overall mundanity of life we’re seeing. Folk for whom, by and large, The Empire works. They have peace. They can more or less go about their business. It’s not something we’ve really explored before.
I particularly enjoyed him being arrested and receiving a hefty sentence for having done…..nothing. At all. The Shoretrooper was particularly well realised as fascist bully boy Police officer who’s already decided to Nick you, that just needs to figure out what sort of charge they can get away with.
Spoiler:
I like to think of the Shoretrooper as a chill guy who had a nice post on a sunny beach with lots of girls in bikinis until some terrorist thing happened on the other end of the galaxy. Suddenly high command flipped out and told sector command to raise arrest quotas or else, sector command told local command to raise arrest quotas or else, local command told guy's commander to raise arrest quotas or else, guy's commander told guy to raise arrest quotas or else, and now guy is supposed to do actual work instead of enjoying the view. No fascist bully boy, just frustration over a bad week at the office.
It genuinely reminds me of a scene from The Young One’s.
A scene that whilst making an important and valid point about heavy handed policing and profiling.
I won’t link it here due to the language used in it. But I’m sure if you looked for “Young Ones racist police” you should be able to find it easily enough.
I figure the arrest is specifically there for that. He'll get processed into the penal system and identified so all involved parties can be brought together. We're past the season's halfway point. It's time to get the finale set up.
Geifer wrote: I figure the arrest is specifically there for that. He'll get processed into the penal system and identified so all involved parties can be brought together. We're past the season's halfway point. It's time to get the finale set up.
2 finales - Episode 9 and 12 if they stick with the 3 episode arc thing.
Well, I want a finale with fireworks for every arc, an extra fireworky finale for the combined arc and season finale, and extra super duper finale with special fireworks for the combined arc, season and show finale. I want all the finales!
That's more like the movie finales some shows get, like Stargate. Except they did it first because Star Wars likes to get to the good bits fast and the extra 'splodey Death Star is more of a movie budget thing. That's a separate finale from the show finales and the only reason I didn't mention it is because we already have it. But it certainly counts as part of all the finales, that's true.
I love how the show puts me right into the setting, causing me to wonder how I would react.
Spoiler:
And how much of my conscience I would be willing to compromise to start a rebellion against a tyrannical regime. It is a question I have also pondered when thinking about the American Revolution.
I love how the show puts me right into the setting, causing me to wonder how I would react.
Spoiler:
And how much of my conscience I would be willing to compromise to start a rebellion against a tyrannical regime. It is a question I have also pondered when thinking about the American Revolution.
Spoiler:
Well, it's certainly an interesting question how you can justify creating galaxy wide suffering as a step in your plan to overthrow a regime you don't like and expect not to go to similar extremes once you're in power and get to do things the way you deem right. Because overthrowing the Empire isn't the end of establishing a new order, and if it worked once...
Why am I getting the impression that Luthen is Saw's homey?
We don't yet know who the other four Jedi are besides Ahsoka and Dooku, do we? I wonder if it's all Republic stuff or if they do something with post purge Kanan.
New episode of Andor. Given I was watching it whilst working, one to give your full attention to. As I will once I’ve clocked off around 4pm.
Things definitely seem to be gathering pace!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tales of the Jedi.
It’s….alright. Nothing ground breaking or revelatory. But some nice detailing on long standing histories. None of the episodes outlive their welcome, and they’re detailed enough to not be flashbacks stretched out, they’re just….not essential viewing.
I was expecting more random stories of random Jedi, but Tales is very much just the rise and fall of Ahsoka and Dooku. Still quite good I thought. As said, not ground breaking, but very good viewing and I like how it gives more motivation to Dooku’s actions.
Dooku doing his best Severus Snape for part of that.
Overall I loved Tales of the Jedi. I really liked how the Ahsoka training one ended, taking us back to the last episode of Clone Wars. Overall it was great to see good Clone Wars back again. Even got a cameo from Kanan!
Andor was... a second episode in an arc of Andor - a lot of getting to where the finale will take place.
Having a nice sit down whilst my dinner cooks, paying proper attention to Andor.
Spoiler:
Or rather….watch Andor pay proper attention to his surroundings. From comments the Guards are making, how the comms panel is used, even noticing the boots the Guards wear before being shown why.
This is pleasing to me, as it follows up on his observations about the Rebel Cell prior to the Heist, such as who’s left and right handed.
It’s a neat bit of character building, as it lets us see he’s already at least looking for ways out. No Force powers allowed, so just guile and careful observation.
I was expecting the Mothma marriage to be something along those lines. Goes to show even the most forward-thinking worlds can have backward traditions.
I really enjoy the painted on textures they chose to use. Especially when you get close you can see the brush strokes on them. Good job taking the basics of the clone wars blocky models and adding a new artistic dimension to it.
Very much enjoyed Tales Filoni just gets Star Wars and it was nice to have more of Dooku's back story and motivations filled in and it addresses a few hanging threads from the prequels. The animation in episode 6 Resolve is probably the best they've done to date.
Some odd voice acting choices using both the Clone Wars and Film actors in different episodes for the same character.
Andor was very much the middle of an arc but good world building and scene setting going on.
Tinge of sadness over Tales of the Jedi, as we see Yoda in several scenes but he doesn't say anything. Sadly Tom Kane, a man who has been voice acting for Yoda since 1999, suffered a stroke a little while back and can't speak. He also voiced Admiral/Colonel Yularen, and was the voice over at the start of every Clone Wars episode.
First time I heard his voice was as the Imperial Fleet Officer in Star Wars: Rebellion, back in '98. That's the same voice he used for Yularen.
DaveC wrote: Some odd voice acting choices using both the Clone Wars and Film actors in different episodes for the same character.
But I imagine he will have his "little Walker"?
