DaveC wrote: Very much enjoyed Tales Filoni just gets Star Wars and it was nice to have more of Dooku's back story and motivations filled in and it addresses a few hanging threads from the prequels. The animation in episode 6 Resolve is probably the best they've done to date.
Some odd voice acting choices using both the Clone Wars and Film actors in different episodes for the same character.
Andor was very much the middle of an arc but good world building and scene setting going on.
It was nice to see Dooku and Ahsoka’s leaving of the Jedi Order juxtaposed somewhat. Both were more or less idealists, who found the Jedi Order lacking for fair reason. The main difference was….Ahsoka didn’t have Palpatine sitting on her shoulder, egging her further and further on.
I enjoyed Tales of the Jedi. I thought it would be more different Jedi, but getting some motivation for Dooku is good and more Ahsoka is always welcome.
The episodes are too short to set up much of a story in each episode, so it's good for Dooku to get a three episode arc. But you really need to know Clone Wars and the prequels to get much of anything out of Tales of the Jedi. But as a supplement to those, it's certainly nice to have.
Andor is good as usual. Looking forward to the arc finale.
DaveC wrote: Very much enjoyed Tales Filoni just gets Star Wars and it was nice to have more of Dooku's back story and motivations filled in and it addresses a few hanging threads from the prequels. The animation in episode 6 Resolve is probably the best they've done to date.
Some odd voice acting choices using both the Clone Wars and Film actors in different episodes for the same character.
Andor was very much the middle of an arc but good world building and scene setting going on.
It was nice to see Dooku and Ahsoka’s leaving of the Jedi Order juxtaposed somewhat. Both were more or less idealists, who found the Jedi Order lacking for fair reason. The main difference was….Ahsoka didn’t have Palpatine sitting on her shoulder, egging her further and further on.
It helps that Ahsoka's master isn't all about doctrine and a lot more about doing the right thing. Because technically Ahsoka is in a similar position during the Siege of Mandalore, with Maul trying to win her over to save Anakin and shank Palpi.
I think it was long overdue to see Dooku’s motivations. I mean, we learn some of his background in Attack of the Clones. But Clone Wars itself didn’t really delve into that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Having a nice sit down whilst my dinner cooks, paying proper attention to Andor.
Spoiler:
Or rather….watch Andor pay proper attention to his surroundings. From comments the Guards are making, how the comms panel is used, even noticing the boots the Guards wear before being shown why.
This is pleasing to me, as it follows up on his observations about the Rebel Cell prior to the Heist, such as who’s left and right handed.
It’s a neat bit of character building, as it lets us see he’s already at least looking for ways out. No Force powers allowed, so just guile and careful observation.
I’m loving it!
I also liked him being clearly in shock at one point. Not a superhuman typical Star Wars character.
And they certainly get mundane thuggery and bureaucratic evil down pat. When I am an evil overlord I know what aspects I will have my minions copy (and neat how they address some of the Star Wars plotholes, like if the punishment for failure is severe - force choke!- , no one would report anything, and the ISB would indeed know sod all).
Didn't get to Andor, but enjoyed Tales. Getting perspective on timeframes for Dooku was really interesting, though it was very odd to bookend it with what mostly felt like deleted scenes for Asohka. Young Liam Neesan looked pretty old though, but seeing Dooku around the events of TPM has long been on my wishlist and they did it exceptionally well. The scene at the tree is the kind of stuff that has helped The Clone Wars redeem the prequel era and make it something of a favorite after all.
I will say this about these last 2 offerings. Andor is the best starwars produced since the original trilogy. Looking forward to them hopfully sticking the landing.
Tales of the Jedi had wonderful art. It was neat seeing it as a Duku/Ahsoka parallel story. But also Duku was clearly always a failure of a Jedi. He drifts to absolutes and takes corrective actions based on them. This guy is corrupt. He must be extiguished. The council is corrupt. It must be extiguished. The republic is corrupt. It must be extiguished. He learned nothing from Qui Gon in that second episode. Yaddle talks normally. So Yoda is just some fething weirdo.
They could never make any more Tales of the Jedi and I wouldn't care. Unless they start exploring that Golden Age we heard so much about and have never seen.
Don't hold out too much hope for the 'golden age.'
A new High Republic book came out, its basically 'religious missionaries hate Jedi and are cultish zealots and are spreading throughout the galaxy. Doom, doom, doom.'
Also a star-crossed romance between a padawan and a cultist, because of course there is.
The 'new pre-prequel setting' is basically shaping up to be spot the cliches.
Voss wrote: Don't hold out too much hope for the 'golden age.'
A new High Republic book came out, its basically 'religious missionaries hate Jedi and are cultish zealots and are spreading throughout the galaxy. Doom, doom, doom.'
Also a star-crossed romance between a padawan and a cultist, because of course there is.
The 'new pre-prequel setting' is basically shaping up to be spot the cliches.
Gross. I want boarder patrolling Knight Errants fighting space monsters and discovering fringe societies where they have their own takes on the Force.
High Republic Path of Deceit back cover summary wrote:Set in the world of the High Republic, 150 years before the storytelling of Phase I, an era of change brings new hopes and possibilities...but also new dangers. The Outer Rim planet Dalna has become the focus of a Jedi investigation into a stolen Force artifact, and Zallah Macri and her Padawan, Kevmo Zink, arrive on the pastoral world to follow up on a possible connection to a Dalnan missionary group called the Path of the Open Hand. Members of the Path believe that the Force must be free and should not be used by anyone, not even the Jedi. One such believer is Marda Ro, a young woman who dreams of leaving Dalna to spread word of the Path throughout the galaxy. When Marda and Kevmo meet, their connection is instantaneous and electric--until Marda discovers Kevmo is a Jedi. But Kevmo is so kind and eager to learn more about the Path, that she hopes she can convince him of the rightness of her beliefs. What Marda doesn't realize is that the leader of the Path, a charismatic woman known only as the Mother, has an agenda of her own, and it is one that can never coexist peacefully with the Jedi. In order to follow her faith, Marda may have to choose to become her new friend's worst enemy....
'The Force must be Free!' is pretty stomach turning as a catchphrase.
You can probably fill in the blanks on 'the Mother' yourself.
150 years is not early enough. I thought the whole point of doing this golden age was to go back like... 600-1000 years and tell stories long before anything we know of existed.
150 years. Yoda is teaching these people at that point.
For me, a big part of Andor’s appeal remains the sheer…banality of it.
The majority is showing just how mundane most lives are in the Galaxy. Republic, Separatist, Empire - the Little Folk don’t have the luxury of actually caring who’s lording it over them. Jobs to be done, bills to paid. You may not like it, but there’s nothing you can do about it, so might as well keep your head down, get on, and hopefully have enough for some drinks at the end of each week.
Yet, for all that, and the show’s deliberate pace? It’s not boring. At all. It’s engrossing.
We see Andor jailed unjustly for a crime he didn’t have any part of, and handed a heavy sentence. We see him….get to it. On the second shift we see him work? He’s giving it his all. Not doing a half arsed job. Not doing just enough not to be worst team and get a shock. Actually….going for it. He almost seems kind of happy. He’s fed and watered, got something to do, and apparently that’s enough.
I agree with the little folk thing. Andor is giving us a broader and better look at people than the small glimpses we got in Obi Wan. In particular you can see the oppression here. But if you think of it from a business owner who used to deal with gangs or thugs or whatever. You can also understand how that truck driver likes what the empire is selling. Systems, structure, order.
That truck driver hasn't seen the dark side of it yet. But he is happy to not have to worry. Just run his job and go home.
The empire IS oppresive. But its ALSO structure and stability.
Lance845 wrote: I agree with the little folk thing. Andor is giving us a broader and better look at people than the small glimpses we got in Obi Wan. In particular you can see the oppression here. But if you think of it from a business owner who used to deal with gangs or thugs or whatever. You can also understand how that truck driver likes what the empire is selling. Systems, structure, order.
That truck driver hasn't seen the dark side of it yet. But he is happy to not have to worry. Just run his job and go home.
The empire IS oppresive. But its ALSO structure and stability.
Yeah. It’s somewhat building off glimmers we saw in the Prequel era. For all its self reverence, The Republic wasn’t an even handed beastie.
Democratic? Sure. Kind of. More so if your Galactic Core where it more or less worked as intended. But further out you go, the more Tinpot things appear to become. Pirates, Gangs. Hutts. Slavers etc.
The Empire did kind of fix a bunch of that. And of course brought an end to war very few knew or probably cared was craftily orchestrated. It did bring order and stability. All it asked was you do your job, we’ll do ours. At least at first.
Its definitely showing the allure of the authoritarian/fascist system for the common folk. We know why the rich folks and upper classes like it (cos prestige and money) but for the common citizen on a Midrim world the Empire means no war, no instability and no (visible) corruption at the highest level.
Of course we know differently as the viewer with the wider scope and IMO the various TV shows Disney have done are still doing enough to show that the Empire isn't something to emulate.
We’re also seeing Luthen Rael actively trying to make things worse. Deliberate strikes which in turn “force” The Empire to get more heavy handed.
In a way, I think that’s in-universe and narratively clever.
Right now, the Galaxy is the proverbial Frog In The Pot. Since Palpatine’s declaration, he’s been carefully upping the heat.
Shadowy ISB to oversee things, but leaving Corp-Sec to manage their own affairs where possible.
Yes things are getting stricter in terms of policing and freedoms. But, all by degrees where it’s such a subtle erosion most folk won’t notice it in time, potentially at all. And all to the background of a comparably peaceful and ordered Galaxy. Certainly the likes of Zygerian Slavers and Spice Cartels now have a unified front standing against them - and one not afraid to get the gloves off for a proper kicking (though we’ve not seen that on screen I admit, but I don’t think it a fanciful claim).
But then comes Rael. Forcing The Empire’s hand. Stinging them in just the right places to provoke a serious reaction. Playing the ISB like a fiddle. The pot is going from a gentle heat to a roaring flame beneath it.
And we’ve seen the direct result of that with a nice pair of scenes to contrast and compare, both on Ferrix, both regarding Bix Caleen*. When it’s Corp-Sec, the enforcement squad are….kind of respectful. They know they’re about as welcome as a fart in a space suit, yes they come out guns bared. But they’re largely reserved.
Sure, one does shoot Bix’s boyfriend (boss? pal?) - but as noted in a much earlier post, his CO immediately chastises the man, disarms him and sends him packing.
The Empire? GET HER! GET HER! From Policing to Bullying to use not quite the right words.
When Corp-Sec was doing it’s thing, the tension was palpable in beautifully crafted scenes. And we got a sense the citizenry were largely willing to tolerate it, as doing so meant being left alone afterward. A potential powder keg, but no-one willing to reach for the matches.
The reaction to The Empire of course remains to be seen, and we may get that in the next episode. But with a permanent, swaggering and heavy handed presence? I can see pistols at Dawn in the future.
*my one criticism is I’m needing to check names via Google! But….that’s possibly more to do with my attention to detail more than anything else. And at least I know who’s who when watching.
Perhaps a silly question, but just to help clarify something in my head….
Spoiler:
Andor's step father was hung by Republic or Empire troops? I know some were in Clone armor but how exactly does the timeline fit? The crashed ship on Andor's “home” world, the one with the dead crew… had crew with Separatist markings. And Andor's step-parents to be talk about a heavy handed response from a Republic ship. This has not been further explored yet. Why would a Republic crew be heavy handed and kill everyone associated with the ship? Did Andor's step-parents to be bring the ship down as pirates or were they only opportunistic scavengers? And I notice folks are still using the term Separatist, Mon Motha even send she had a reputation for helping doomed Separatist do-gooders. And I have already heard Andor use the term Alliance, as well as others say rebels (or did they mean Rebels?) and terrorists… that has to be in error as Mon Mothma has not declared the Rebellion yet, right? Bear in mind I have not see Rebels yet.
… but all that aside, I am loving the show. The pace is fine for me because it is fascinating to see the world brought to life. I have seen a thousand takes on prisons in cinema but they managed to make something that felt like a fresh take on a working prison.
So much of this show comes across as… thought out… things make sense to me. Unlike other shows such as Book of Boba Fett or Rings of Power.
I feel a bit guilty for empathizing with both ISB Lieutenant Deeda Meero and the disgraced Syril Karn. It definitely feels like a very different take on Imperial characters. But there is that constant banality of evil vibe as well. Very immersive.
And now we have “rebel” characters looking at the “big picture” not concerned about hurting “the little people” or betraying the people they use as tools.
Normally I would say I prefer a more black and white Star Wars, the clear cut good versus evil Pulp Space opera of A New Hope but Andor is so magnificently made that it is selling me on a shades of moral grey Star Wars. And that really surprises me.
I suspect Ferrix may have been part of the Confederacy of Independent Systems. So the Clones could be from either era, and receive much the same welcome.
Whilst Clone Wars did mostly skim over Naughty Republic Behaviour, they were by no means squeaky clean. All it would it take is a task force with no Jedi attached as a moral compass, and anything could happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ignore all that. I should’ve Googled.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: Perhaps a silly question, but just to help clarify something in my head….
Spoiler:
Andor's step father was hung by Republic or Empire troops? I know some were in Clone armor but how exactly does the timeline fit? The crashed ship on Andor's “home” world, the one with the dead crew… had crew with Separatist markings. And Andor's step-parents to be talk about a heavy handed response from a Republic ship. This has not been further explored yet. Why would a Republic crew be heavy handed and kill everyone associated with the ship? Did Andor's step-parents to be bring the ship down as pirates or were they only opportunistic scavengers? And I notice folks are still using the term Separatist, Mon Motha even send she had a reputation for helping doomed Separatist do-gooders. And I have already heard Andor use the term Alliance, as well as others say rebels (or did they mean Rebels?) and terrorists… that has to be in error as Mon Mothma has not declared the Rebellion yet, right? Bear in mind I have not see Rebels yet.
I think they are trying to emphasise the overlap and change of systems into another.
Palpatine didn't suddenly go - we are an Empire now! Instead, you would have had a process leading to that. New universal laws. Universal messaging. Recruitment into a galatic army for the first time ratehr than PDFs. Republic officers at this stage in the war might simply be killing everyone who opposes them. They are either clones following orders or core world officers sick of risking their lives - any long war brutalises the participants and it takes strong moral leadership to avoid that - and the Jedi morals were frankly odd.
I think the step parents were scavengers as they only had a transport ship, not an anti-corvette weapon fit.
I think in the senate now separatists are ones that don't want to go along with everything the Empire decrees, wanting the autonomy of the old pre war republic. The Empire calls any dissenters rebels, but they have clearly shown they are a disparate set of groups, with Saw's lot fighting for anarchy (in the traditional democratic sense) and operating as commerce raiders (have fighters and are 'flush'). Why not take the catch all term the Empire is using and use that for your own advantage? If you want to unite people, using the term uniting term the Empire keeps repeating ironically gives you a shared identity.
Anyway are we placing bets on how the escape with work? Outside or inside job? I am hoping inside, but it seems very tight, so outside help required?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and are they making anything useful? Or is a different floor just taking them apart...
They could very easily be building support hubs for the death star. Or large space ships in general. A hex grid of supports is very structurally sound with the arms being able to accommodate angles and curves.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Anyway are we placing bets on how the escape with work? Outside or inside job? I am hoping inside, but it seems very tight, so outside help required?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and are they making anything useful? Or is a different floor just taking them apart...
They are most definitely producing something useful. Not only are convicts are great source of cheap labor (and only half a technicality away from slave labor), but they're also kept in good health and thus don't get worked to death. Without the latter as motivation, there's no reason to let them build stuff. There are easier ways to get rid of prisoners, even without executions, and guards with guns and no orders to consider the prisoners' safety can keep a pretty large population in check in case of a riot. Perks of a repressive Empire and all that.
How do they get out? Well, I think it will involve Melshi in a big way since he sticks around until Rogue One. I could see him and possibly some of his buddies having some sort of escape plan/ambition. I could see Clem Cassian playing a vital role in the escape that wasn't practical until someone of his skill shows up. So I'd say inside job.
I reckon Luthen's rebels have no way of tracking him while in prison, so they couldn't help even to take him out after or during the escape. And I think in an Empire so large, Junior and Agent Hot Stuff are only going to find out about Cassian being in an Imperial prison after he broke out and the escape draws the necessary attention and gets his picture out to people who can identify him.
Hmm, will be interesting to see if there's a connection.
I'm not sure I'd like that, though. If prison security hinges on the power staying on, I'd hope they have backup generators. I guess it wouldn't outright be a Leia under coat moment if they don't given that there are so many anti-grav platforms and similar tech in Star Wars that the assumption has to be that power outages are nearly unheard of, but still. Remotely circumventing prison security seems like a pretty big design flaw.
It looks like a very Modern Facility. Nothing is grimy, not even the inmates living quarters.
Given the well established arrogance of The Empire? They may have cut costs on backups, on the assumption no assault on the power generator could possibly succeed.
As Saw was told, the person he’s being asked to collaborate with has found a gap in the defences, but basically needs X-Wings for the Smashy Smashy?
And given Rael clearly stated his aim is to force The Empire to clamp down ever harder to forment (ferment? I’m sure it’s forment?) discontent and from there resistance and finally rebellion? And assuming he’s not a Palpatine Stooge (OK Rael, get out there and give me as many excuses as you can for me to get my heavy handed jollies, La) this would be another one.
Assuming for now he’s not? What better way to stretch The Empire’s resources from Actually Valuable Targets than getting it paranoid and well protective of all it’s assets? Teensy tiny communications outpost on the arse end of galactic nowhere? Never mind that clapped out Escort Frigate, better deploy three etc etc.
Dave Filoni once said he wanted the X-Wing to make its debut in Rebels in a scene invoking the feel of the 'Cadillac of the Sky' moment from Empire of the Sun.
He never ended up doing that, the X-Wing's debut on that show ended up being a lot less dramatic, but maybe someone's hung on to that idea and it'll be used for Andor?
Lance845 wrote: They could very easily be building support hubs for the death star. Or large space ships in general. A hex grid of supports is very structurally sound with the arms being able to accommodate angles and curves.
Oh boom! Great insight...would love it if they're building the death star. Good shout
But that makes way for a new theory, huzzah! Three arcs per season, just the last arc is double episodes with two for the ramp up, two for the middle and two for the fireworks. I have a good feeling about this because obviously the season finale needs to be more 'splodey than a simple arc finale!
Or they do something else, but who cares. They managed to make it good so far, I'm sure they know what they're doing.
Indeed. I do want to say I did enjoy the new episode. Lots of further increasing tensions and some stuff going on, it’s just not the explody arc finale I was expecting it to be.
Yeah, that was my expectation as well and it would have been cool, but...
Spoiler:
... if Cassian likes his stay at the resort so much, I really don't begrudge him staying there a little while longer. He's earned it.
I will say that in addition to the episode being good as usual, I got my little happy moment out of the major deciding to bring in Military Intelligence to deal with that rebel cell Saw wanted nothing to do with. It's been in the trailer and was bound to happen at some point of course, but I've been looking forward to some Death Trooper action all this time. It might even be good considering how the show went so far.
I am again struck by just how…dour it all is. You can tell there’s some embers of resistance against The Imperial regime. Smouldering elements which, with the right attention will be fanned into the Galaxy wide Rebellion we all know and love.
And you know? This is showing that whilst Luke et al do go on to play major roles in the outcome? They weren’t catalysts for revolution. Which for me is super pleasing. It all would’ve happened regardless - though the outcome would’ve been much different were it not for Yavin (when of course The Emperor farted on his political Weetabix, having shown his hand then had some cheeky Chappy chew all his aces).
A little annoyed I held out 3 weeks to watch and entire arc by itself then it's not a 3 episode arch like the last 6 episodes. But still very very enjoyable.
Also folks? I finally remembered where I sort-of know Vel Sartha’s actor from.
It’s Game of Thrones. Where she played The Waif.
We have a mutual friend (as in, someone I used to work with) and so I spoke for us all by extending Nerddom’s overall thanks to her for being part of the best Star Wars production in a long old time.
Lance845 wrote: I think you might be able to drop the "in a long time".
Andor might just be the best Star Wars has ever been.
More competent bad guys please.
Ah ah ah!
Don’t tread on the childhood comfort memories! Yes my media literacy is now at least passable? But Teensy Tiny Wee Me? So wee they didn’t know Star Wars had sequels, but at that specific life moment not So Wee they don’t remember that specific bit of life learning? And kind of know they weren’t, in terms of script and acting terribly good? Still the first film to imprint itself indelibly upon my brian.
Andor is Frankly Magnificent. Staggeringly so. But? I’ll put to you and anyone else reading this that of it was a start up, no background, just it’s own merits, show? A significant part of its appeal goes straight out the window.
We love it as a show, precisely because it Is Not Star Wars By The Numbers. Remove those Numbers? Who can truly say?
Lance845 wrote: I think you might be able to drop the "in a long time".
Andor might just be the best Star Wars has ever been.
More competent bad guys please.
Ah ah ah!
Don’t tread on the childhood comfort memories! Yes my media literacy is now at least passable? But Teensy Tiny Wee Me? So wee they didn’t know Star Wars had sequels, but at that specific life moment not So Wee they don’t remember that specific bit of life learning? And kind of know they weren’t, in terms of script and acting terribly good? Still the first film to imprint itself indelibly upon my brian.
Andor is Frankly Magnificent. Staggeringly so. But? I’ll put to you and anyone else reading this that of it was a start up, no background, just it’s own merits, show? A significant part of its appeal goes straight out the window.
We love it as a show, precisely because it Is Not Star Wars By The Numbers. Remove those Numbers? Who can truly say?
Nostalgia value aside, go back and watch the first little story, episodes 1-3 of Andor and pretend it's just some new Sci Fi series.
Does it set up the circumstances? Do we see the oppressive government and the run down people? I would say yes, but I would also say we don't see the true scope of it here.
Now watch as we enter the second story. 4-6. Now we see the government above the government. We see the bureaucracy the little guys in the first story were answering to. We see the spy game at work. And we see the bigger picture the rebellion is fighting against.
Then look at that 3rd story 7-9. See the brutality of that system. See how it TRULY stamps on the little guy. Eats them up, chews them, and spits them out. AND we see the real spy game on the Rebellion side. The Mon Mothma stuff.
Andor is frankly a Game of Thrones of sci fi told from the perspective of the peasants. I don't think you need old Star Wars to appreciate what is going on. Now imagine the wizards showing up with their laser swords but painted in this grim world we are being shown?
Gert wrote: Sweet Jesus...
Let's hope there are no illusions that the Empire isn't bad after that.
Also ew. Creepy stalker.
Never underestimate people's ability to rationalize attrocity.
Excellent episode. Really excellent episode.
I quite agree.
Spoiler:
Fear makes “the ends justifies the means” all too tempting for people, including the justification of “enhanced interrogation techniques”.
Not that I sympathize for the Imperials, but it is interesting how show has avoided talking about what crimes the prisoners have committed. Most are there from before the increased sentences. Yet it is all to easy to assume they have only committed offenses as petty as Cassian has.
I don't care how much money they have to give him.I really hope they don't kill off Andy Serkis' character as he's now up there with Stellan Skarsgard as best actor in show.
Saying that, was also really impressed with the ISB lady too.
So, so good. Great acting, great direction, great everything.
This really is an outstanding high point in Star Wars for me.
As I’ve said before, the words mature and gritty are all too often bandied around to describe pretty awful stuff with crap lighting and a blue filter. But they absolutely apply to Andor in the right ways.
There’s the general oppressive feeling. The mood is dour, somber and serious. Whilst the only stakes we’ve really seen are personal risk, the mood makes those stakes feel very high. And now a need for spoiler tags.
Spoiler:
Take the prison break. Some blaster fun, with those sounds we know and love, and indeed blasters we know and love. Yet…it’s restrained. It’s…realistic, so far as a sci-fi shoot out can get. People stood in the middle of the corridor…get shot.
When Gollum and Andor hit the control centre, their anger and menace is genuine. Yet they’re overall quite restrained. Also a nice bit of exposition that once shutdown, main power takes weeks to get back online. That such a claim seems…daft…doesn’t matter. It’s enough to move the plot along, and explain why they didn’t just switch the power back on. It also shows that while serious and desperate, and willing to kill? Gollum and Andor won’t kill for the sake of it. There’s no attempt to hunt down the remaining staff or execute the command station dudes for the sake of it.
Aaaahhhhhhh. It’s just so bloody good! More more more more more more more more more more more more more more.
I do wish they had said hours rather than weeks. I don’t know how it could be weeks unless the act of turning it off causes mechanical breaks that need manual replacement of parts and equipment, whereas hours can be a case of priming stuff and easing systems back into place, and still plenty long enough for what was needed.
Starwars is known for cascade design problems. Like small vents that can detonate your entire moo....er..space station. Or the loss of a bridge that totally destroys your entire super-city-star-destroyer.
Clearly some ethos of design or necessity of design with their technology seems to create a lot of systems where they work fine, but once they take damage they cause cascading failures everywhere which results in vast increases in damage and longer repairs.
I think even hours is an awfully long time to start up a functioning hydroelectric generator. I'm just going to go with mechanical issues due to the shutdown.
In fact, I blame the bottomless pit. I mean, no one questioned that, right? The prison is a tube in a lake or ocean with a bottomless pit in the middle that the water rushing through the generators flows into. I have no idea how that's supposed to work, but it looks cool and the Empire sure loves its bottomless pits. The Scarif citadel had one of those too, didn't it?
I'd just put the generator startup time down to having a complex system that's fine while it's kept running but has so many issues after an interruption.
Could also be fuses and that, where a full start up from cold blows them, so it has to be a level by level gradual build of demand.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Either way it’s a neat, if slightly daft in reality, bit of exposition to move the plot along (and provide our heroes with the choice not to kill)
I work security in a soybean rendering plant. No hydroelectric generators here, and I have no idea how any of this stuff works or what exactly they do in there, but if the plant has an issue and goes down it can take them a couple hours sometimes to get it going again. A few rare occasions have taken a couple days to fix. Weeks just feels like overkill unless that’s going to somehow effect future episodes. Not to mention the process to cause that was button, button, switch, done.
Spoiler:
Of more concern is why water on the floor shorts out of the floor. I’m curious what it’s doing that a person in contact with it isn’t. It’s needing to make connections the system normally wouldn’t. It would have to be leaks under the floor I would think since we saw the levels aren’t water tight.
AduroT wrote: I work security in a soybean rendering plant. No hydroelectric generators here, and I have no idea how any of this stuff works or what exactly they do in there, but if the plant has an issue and goes down it can take them a couple hours sometimes to get it going again. A few rare occasions have taken a couple days to fix. Weeks just feels like overkill unless that’s going to somehow effect future episodes. Not to mention the process to cause that was button, button, switch, done.
Spoiler:
Of more concern is why water on the floor shorts out of the floor. I’m curious what it’s doing that a person in contact with it isn’t. It’s needing to make connections the system normally wouldn’t. It would have to be leaks under the floor I would think since we saw the levels aren’t water tight.
Spoiler:
Yeah, I'm not going to claim any worthwhile expertise either. I went and looked up the Wikipedia article that seems to confirm my hazy knowledge of power generation from whenever I picked that stuff up:
Hydropower is a flexible source of electricity since stations can be ramped up and down very quickly to adapt to changing energy demands. Hydro turbines have a start-up time of the order of a few minutes. Although battery power is quicker its capacity is tiny compared to hydro. It takes less than 10 minutes to bring most hydro units from cold start-up to full load; this is quicker than nuclear and almost all fossil fuel power.
It definitely seems unwarranted to go with such a long reboot time, but it occurs to me that it might be thematic instead of technical. Just like the Empire, its works run smoothly and efficiently as long as every little cog plays its part. But as soon as that is no longer the case, the whole thing comes to a halt and is no longer functional. The Empire is oftentimes described as heavy-handed, which is of course an apt general description, but when you try to look at reasons for why that might be the case, the suggestion might be that both on a societal and technological level it's just massively dogmatic and works according to a singular plan that must be followed no matter the cost or else it all comes crumbling down. It's the perfect machine and can do marvelous things as long as all goes well, and because of the need for all to go well, every effort must be taken to make that happen. And because every effort is taken, there is no need to question running the perfect machine over something else. It's the kind of circular logic that I could see the writers try to use to characterize the Empire at large.
Another thought, although this is baseless layman's speculation, is that modern hydroelectric generators are better than they were half a century ago. We mustn't forget that Star Wars uses Space 70s technology. You certainly couldn't stuff the computer that runs your Star Destroyer in your back pocket in the 70s. It might just be that the writers felt that a retro-technological touch was in order.
As for the button, button, switch thing, this is Star Wars. You know? Bottomless pits and no guard rails? Failsafes and workplace safety basically don't exist in the setting. Do bad things happen if you do those moves in that sequence? Yes. Is anybody going to do that? No. There is a technician on duty at that console and he is trained to know how his workstation works. Unauthorized personnel doesn't get to push buttons on strange consoles. Just tell them to keep their hands off that stuff unless ordered to shut down the power and everything will be wonderful. Failsafes? Pft. What could possibly go wrong?
About the water, the pipes behind the wall are made of metal, wet and have a constant stream of water connecting them to the floor. Possibly that's a way for the electricity to connect with the system?
SW Tech has always been complete garbage. It's super analog despite being highly advanced. Droids are functioning AIs, but now ship is equipped with a ship AI. Consoles require physical keys in the form of 7" long USB sticks with manual buttons and levers.
Something in SW breaking down taking weeks to fix is completely reasonable. Nothing has been built for efficiency.
Note on breakdowns. I have been in enough horrible countries that have repair times of days to weeks for power issues in the stuff I was working on. In Iraq the maintained crews had learnt how to jury rig in under a day (with most of it being travel time). Conversely in some part of Africa and Asia getting crews together, finding out they were disinterested/not trained, getting the right people, getting the parts... Yep the sound of generators for weeks.
AduroT wrote: I don’t know that they droid that downloaded into the Falcon got to keep its personality or if it gave up its sentience and ended up just data.
Presumably some of it would be left, considering C-3PO's comment about its peculiarity.
Not sure that's much of an AI in the modern sense, though. Everything is still manually done by the crew and the Falcon's computer just operates in the background without autonomy or functions that overtly take over from the fleshlings, in the same way the computer I'm typing on works. There's a lot of tech working in the background, but unless I make it do something, it doesn't do anything. The Falcon has more of a communication or personality oddity than an AI or droid remnant.
The ship in Andor at least has an internal visual sensor, accepts audio input and has control over some ship functions. That's far more like a hardwired droid or AI and a hefty step up from the Falcon.
In addition to the Falcon, Empire also has the Cloud City central computer apparently volunteer information to R2 about the hyperdrive being disabled. One of those 'point of view' short stories confirmed that L3 wasn't the only droid brain that had been hooked up to and had their personality persist within the Falcon's computer systems, Poe's X-Wing had a computer that apparently had enough of a personality to clash with BB-8...
The EU has any number of stories featuring evil hammy computers, including a notable one where IG-88 infiltrates the Death Star 2 in order to upload its mind and take it over - only to be stopped by that black painted R2 unit you see trundling around in the background shots.
Another great episode… but yeah, if you look too closely at the technology things start to unravel. Some brilliant acting, some minor plot holes but otherwise overall good writing.
I remain stoked it’s getting universal appreciation.
As discussed pages ago, as a lifelong Star Wars fan, I loved that it wasn’t Star Wars By The Numbers, but expressed concern that fact might have put more casual watches off.
I mean, if you’re tuning in for pew-zap-pew and derring do, and get a near Scandi Noir take on Star Wars, I can see it putting you right off.
But despite its careful pace (not slow. This is deliberate) and lower key events, it’s bloody engrossing. Definitely seems to have All The Acting, as if it’s impact is such it bent space time, collecting up The Acting from everything that came before.
We can only hope those that be appreciate the wider appreciation, and loosen up (heh, inadvertent quote) what they allow to be made for a tent pole IP.
Watched a few episodes round at my mums last night. The occasional comment from an easily baffled old person, but still had to sit through all the star wars with her kids, and now their grandchildren so gets the basics. Her comment at the end about Axis was, 'He seems to be the bad guy, is he meant to be the bad guy?'.
I thought that was great
Possibly controversial opinion..Last time I was this impressed by a show was The Wire.
I would describe it as "Star Wars taken seriously" and is pretty much everything I was hoping we'd get from the franchise as I grew up.
Best writing and cast of any genre show available right now (yeah,I'm looking at you HotD...you're good, but not this good).
We've got The Mandalorian for the classic Saturday afternoon matinee adventure stuff, and now this is giving us oldies something more mature to contemplate.
The difference in quality between this and the last few films is simply STAGGERING (although I will admit to being quite fond of Solo).
Stellan Skarsgard and Andy Serkis absolutely need recognition for their performances, and I'm rapidly thinking that the actress who plays Mon Mothma is approaching their level too.
Really like how they are showing the compromises in ethics that the early rebels are having to make, whilst simultaneously exploring what it is that makes the empire so terrible (beyond hammy cackilng and lightning bolts).
I am not hopeful for it, but I really wish we could see some side/background force user characters with this tone. It would be amazing to see the dark gritty lived in and intriguing SW universe with some side mysticism that feels other worldly and dangerous or awe inspiring.
Possibly controversial opinion..Last time I was this impressed by a show was The Wire.
I would describe it as "Star Wars taken seriously" and is pretty much everything I was hoping we'd get from the franchise as I grew up.
Best writing and cast of any genre show available right now (yeah,I'm looking at you HotD...you're good, but not this good).
We've got The Mandalorian for the classic Saturday afternoon matinee adventure stuff, and now this is giving us oldies something more mature to contemplate.
The difference in quality between this and the last few films is simply STAGGERING (although I will admit to being quite fond of Solo).
Stellan Skarsgard and Andy Serkis absolutely need recognition for their performances, and I'm rapidly thinking that the actress who plays Mon Mothma is approaching their level too.
Really like how they are showing the compromises in ethics that the early rebels are having to make, whilst simultaneously exploring what it is that makes the empire so terrible (beyond hammy cackilng and lightning bolts).
Absolutley loving this show.
Genevieve O’Reilly definitely needs recognition for this. Unlike Messrs Skarsgard and Serkis, Mon Mothma is a near 40 year old character not noted for being particularly interesting. So she’s not building from a blank slate, which seems a tougher job than selling an entirely new character
I'm getting the impression that she's there as contrast to the extremists, trying to fight a clean(ish) rebellion. I'd argue she is doing something, albeit not very successfully to provide the aforementioned contrast to the extremists who actually get stuff done.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Mon Mothma hasn't done anything yet. 10 episodes in, and her entire arc has been setting up for something to happen.
Geifer wrote:I'm getting the impression that she's there as contrast to the extremists, trying to fight a clean(ish) rebellion. I'd argue she is doing something, albeit not very successfully to provide the aforementioned contrast to the extremists who actually get stuff done.
I hadn’t given much thought to it, but that rings true. She’s trying to work within the system, and not getting much done and is taking forever to even try. This contrasts with the more extreme branches who are achieving results, but at what cost? It’s not that she’s not at risk. The empire would disappear her as an example in their fight against corruption.
Her situation also ties into Rael’s declaration that the Rebellion has cost him everything. And Mon Mothma is edging closer to her Rebels debut timeline wise.
And do remember it’s not until Rogue One that we really see a proper pulling together of the Rebellion and a course of action agreed.
Just like that? Rael has my favourite Star Wars ship ever! I may even buy the hopefully inevitable X-Wing model!
Some nice reuse of assets in the Quad Jumper and Imperial Ship.
Once again we see a more sober approach to the action, and Imperial arrogance catching them with flat feet.
Overall a relatively quiet episode, prior to the season finale. I quite like that, particularly as we know there’s another 12 episode to come in the future, so I’m not expecting a major cliff hanger, so much as something like Andor more formally signing up with his Rebel Cell.
Absolutely wonderful stuff. A class in careful restraint.
That ship is Definitely gonna make it into X-Wing somehow.
He’s definitely going to the funeral. He’s smart enough to know he shouldn’t, but he’s emotional enough he’ll try anyways. He’s got to. They’ve set too much stuff up around it.
Almost surprised they showed the escape from the planet. I thought they might hand wave that bit. I’d be curious how that ship was allowed to leave the planet after a prison break though, but I’ll accept that for my hand wave.
The only part a had a problem with was the aliens. I could only half hear/understand what he was saying, but I got the gist of it from context and the bits I could understand.
While the aliens are hard to understand in detail, I think it's a nice acknowledgement that not everyone in the galaxy speaks basic and some who learn it don't progress beyond a rudimentary understanding they need for trade.
Looking forward to next week. Looks like there's going to be a big party and everyone's invited!
AduroT wrote: The only part a had a problem with was the aliens. I could only half hear/understand what he was saying, but I got the gist of it from context and the bits I could understand.
A good episode. And I quite agree about having a hard time understanding those two aliens.
Spoiler:
Luthen‘s ship was very cool, right up until he had two giant light sabers. Even Mrs. GG was put off by that and she specifically mentioned how much she liked his ship right before they popped out.. Between those, the Kyber crystal necklace, some of the stuff in his shop and that rod he carries (which was again a plot point item specifically brought to our attention during the searching scene with Saw)… I am wondering if he is a Jedi hiding in plain sight. And his use of an Alderaan identity code for the ship… was that intentional or just a coincidence?
I am not sure the general public will care much about criminals in an Imperial prison being mistreated…. So I think Andor‘s prison buddy is going to come to an ugly end and I think Andor knows that. I see he gave him a weapon but none of the money. Pragmatic as always, our Andor.
What exactly is Mon Mothma‘s daughter so involved in? A religious group? Political? I did not quite catch that.
Hm. I don’t know that they’re actually sabers. They extended clear off the edge of the screen in all shots, so I think they’re just “normal” lasers of some variety.
I can see it being tech derived from the same principles. But, we have also seen coherent beam weapons elsewhere, such as the MAC
There are a couple of differences (no charge up time, different beam colour) those can be down to further refinement of the technology and/or a different manufacturer)
An interesting penultimate episode. I'm not quite as enamoured by the show as some on here seem to be, but it's definitely a cut above most of the other SW material other than Mando, and I do like the different view it gives us of life on the outskirts of the Empire, while fleshing out the inner workings of the Empire in realistic ways. There's a really well-defined probable path from where we are here to how the Empire looks at the beginning of ANH.
Luthen‘s ship was very cool, right up until he had two giant light sabers. Even Mrs. GG was put off by that and she specifically mentioned how much she liked his ship right before they popped out.. Between those, the Kyber crystal necklace, some of the stuff in his shop and that rod he carries (which was again a plot point item specifically brought to our attention during the searching scene with Saw)… I am wondering if he is a Jedi hiding in plain sight. And his use of an Alderaan identity code for the ship… was that intentional or just a coincidence?
I am not sure the general public will care much about criminals in an Imperial prison being mistreated…. So I think Andor‘s prison buddy is going to come to an ugly end and I think Andor knows that. I see he gave him a weapon but none of the money. Pragmatic as always, our Andor.
What exactly is Mon Mothma‘s daughter so involved in? A religious group? Political? I did not quite catch that.
Spoiler:
Pretty sure it's the religion/customs of their home planet. It's related to the arranged child marriage tradition that Mon and her husband took part in, and the crime lord guy from the previous episode said he wanted for Mon's daughter and his son. I suspect they're setting up even more of a moral dilemma for Mon as she clearly doesn't want to subject her daughter to a forced marriage, but her daughter seems genuinely interested in the tradition, which might give her enough of a reason to go ahead with it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I can see it being tech derived from the same principles. But, we have also seen coherent beam weapons elsewhere, such as the MAC
There are a couple of differences (no charge up time, different beam colour) those can be down to further refinement of the technology and/or a different manufacturer)
They may actually have a charge up time. The moment he opens their hatches and the tubes pop out they’re already glowing red for a couple seconds before the lasers come out. Is that a charge up primer? A standby mode? Unknown.
Here’s a sudden random thought. Death Star uses Kyber as well and fires a continuous beam. Are they mini Death Star lasers?
Also, imagine if he had used them when he buzzed the big ship’s bridge window.
AduroT wrote: The only part a had a problem with was the aliens. I could only half hear/understand what he was saying, but I got the gist of it from context and the bits I could understand.
A good episode. And I quite agree about having a hard time understanding those two aliens.
Spoiler:
Luthen‘s ship was very cool, right up until he had two giant light sabers. Even Mrs. GG was put off by that and she specifically mentioned how much she liked his ship right before they popped out.. Between those, the Kyber crystal necklace, some of the stuff in his shop and that rod he carries (which was again a plot point item specifically brought to our attention during the searching scene with Saw)… I am wondering if he is a Jedi hiding in plain sight. And his use of an Alderaan identity code for the ship… was that intentional or just a coincidence?
I am not sure the general public will care much about criminals in an Imperial prison being mistreated…. So I think Andor‘s prison buddy is going to come to an ugly end and I think Andor knows that. I see he gave him a weapon but none of the money. Pragmatic as always, our Andor.
What exactly is Mon Mothma‘s daughter so involved in? A religious group? Political? I did not quite catch that.
Spoiler:
Well, if Luthen was a Jedi, he sure isn't anymore. His ship's laser swords are red and he certainly acts like it, too.
I have a good feeling about Cassian's buddy coming to an ugly end. I bet he becomes a terrorist and gets shot on Scarif.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I can see it being tech derived from the same principles. But, we have also seen coherent beam weapons elsewhere, such as the MAC
There are a couple of differences (no charge up time, different beam colour) those can be down to further refinement of the technology and/or a different manufacturer)
They may actually have a charge up time. The moment he opens their hatches and the tubes pop out they’re already glowing red for a couple seconds before the lasers come out. Is that a charge up primer? A standby mode? Unknown.
Here’s a sudden random thought. Death Star uses Kyber as well and fires a continuous beam. Are they mini Death Star lasers?
Also, imagine if he had used them when he buzzed the big ship’s bridge window.
Spoiler:
I was a bit WTF about the ship, to be honest.
On the positive side, he tried spinning. Evidently that's a good trick.
On the not so positive side, he seems to have pretty neat gadgets that provide a handy counter to tractor beams, which I'm sure would have altered a decent number of movies and TV episodes if that stuff had been around. And the lasers are kind of gratuitous considering he was easily able to shoot down the other two TIEs the old-fashioned way.
I suppose I'm not too bothered in retrospect if you explain it away as experimental tech or something that comes at too great a cost (which isn't shown, so I guess not), but as a thing in the otherwise so low key show it stood out quite a bit.
As for hitting the bridge, that shouldn't achieve anything? It's a laser and the cruiser has shields. The TIEs don't have that benefit, so it works against them just fine. I'm more wondering how the tractor beam countermeasures got through the shield to damage the dish.
Slipspace wrote: An interesting penultimate episode. I'm not quite as enamoured by the show as some on here seem to be, but it's definitely a cut above most of the other SW material other than Mando, and I do like the different view it gives us of life on the outskirts of the Empire, while fleshing out the inner workings of the Empire in realistic ways. There's a really well-defined probable path from where we are here to how the Empire looks at the beginning of ANH.
Luthen‘s ship was very cool, right up until he had two giant light sabers. Even Mrs. GG was put off by that and she specifically mentioned how much she liked his ship right before they popped out.. Between those, the Kyber crystal necklace, some of the stuff in his shop and that rod he carries (which was again a plot point item specifically brought to our attention during the searching scene with Saw)… I am wondering if he is a Jedi hiding in plain sight. And his use of an Alderaan identity code for the ship… was that intentional or just a coincidence?
I am not sure the general public will care much about criminals in an Imperial prison being mistreated…. So I think Andor‘s prison buddy is going to come to an ugly end and I think Andor knows that. I see he gave him a weapon but none of the money. Pragmatic as always, our Andor.
What exactly is Mon Mothma‘s daughter so involved in? A religious group? Political? I did not quite catch that.
Spoiler:
Pretty sure it's the religion/customs of their home planet. It's related to the arranged child marriage tradition that Mon and her husband took part in, and the crime lord guy from the previous episode said he wanted for Mon's daughter and his son. I suspect they're setting up even more of a moral dilemma for Mon as she clearly doesn't want to subject her daughter to a forced marriage, but her daughter seems genuinely interested in the tradition, which might give her enough of a reason to go ahead with it.
The capital ship would probably be easily able to deflect laser blasts directed at it thanks to its ray shields; perhaps its particle shielding wasn't so strong so the tractor countermeasure things (basically just flechettes of some kind as far as I could tell) could go through them. Or maybe particle shielding only stops fast moving objects like micrometeoroids or high-velocity bullets (like the shields in Dune). Maybe the Imperial ship designers hadn't anticipated projectiles because nobody uses projectile weapons in the Star Wars universe anymore.
The function of the tractor beam is literally to pull stuff towards the emitter, and Luthen guns the engines before launching his countermeasures to make the cruiser ramp up the power. Given the weapon's charging time I assume it uses electromagnets or something to launch the flechettes at very high velocity, which are then accelerated even more by the tractor beam. Maybe the tractor beam has to be fired through a hole in the shield coverage or something, or the shields are effective against energy weapons but not projectiles.
Re the tractor beam, the more modern ships don't have those big emitter dish. The trick won't work against Star Destroyers, but this older type of ship is fair game.
The frequently trailed spinning ship was just a bit of Star Wars standard stuff, it only seems incongruous in the context of everything else we have seen. In a normal series we would be wondering why all ships don't fit them.
Also worth keeping in mind we’ve never really met a character with Rael’s presumed personal wealth.
Everything else we’ve seen is either cheap and mass produced (Imperial) or The Best We Can Afford (Rebel Alliance and Bounty Hunters).
In a mass battle? I dare say Rael’s ship might suffer. Here of course it caught the Imperials relatively flat footed, and off guard. But something like Yavin or Endor, where there are threats coming from all angles, we may not see quite the same results.
This is like Star Wars we’ve never seen. It’s dark. It’s brutal. It’s about as realistic as we can get with Blasters and Space Wizards involved.
That speech. How the tension is built then released.
The central point that prior to The Empire, life might’ve been hard, but they were let be once their contribution was done worked beautifully as world building. Because it was The Empire establishing a permanent presence which brought the truth to it. Republic, CIS, Empire. Who the head honcho didn’t matter to Ferrix. They had a job to do, they did it. You just had to leave them be once done.
Absolutely bloody amazing. More please. Not just Andor. More Star Wars akin to this.
There’s a post credit scene! Nothing huge, but a nice touch.
Otherwise…
Spoiler:
Three fairly minor quibbles.
A.) I’d have enjoyed an ISB scene where they talk about the prison break and show a picture of the ringleader and ISB Lady can go That’s Andor! and they come to the conclusion he got arrested on purpose with the intention of causing the escape and interrupting their important work.
2.) Hammer Man needed to hammer that Trooper first before he kicked him off his tower. True fan service would have been ringing the anvil with the Trooper’s head before kicking him off.
III.) The red droid is my favorite droid now and they didn’t get enough lines in this episode. A quick exchange before the parade asking if they were ready and replying they’d spent all night charging for this would have been **chef’s kiss**.
2.) Hammer Man needed to hammer that Trooper first before he kicked him off his tower. True fan service would have been ringing the anvil with the Trooper’s head before kicking him off.
An excellent episode. And some good comments on here. It will be a long wait until season 2…. and it set a high bar for the next shows.
Spoiler:
I will admit I totally do not know how exactly I should take the disgraced Corp security officer saving the ISB supervisor. I mean, I know they are not the protagonists. Quite the opposite, she is clearly malicious given the torture scene even if he can be looked at as just confused… but I found myself almost cheering for them surviving. I was half expecting a typical John Williams musical swell and her kissing him in that enclosed space. I feel… confused. I mean I also half expected Mon Mothma's sister to kill her partner when she told her to step away from the window. I was hating Luthen at this point. This show… wow. Fair play. You just never know quite what to expect. The final scene between Cassian and Luthen, the only 5ing I knew was Cassian had to survive due to Rogue One but other than that I just did not know how it would play out. Brilliant!
I liked the soft, quiet touch of the former corp security sergeant sitting alone in that alleyway having a drink, apparently in resignation. I really want to know what happens to him. He certainly did not look too kindly at the Imperial soldier/cop that stopped him and his “boss”. That is the kind of scene too often ignored by writers/directors.
When I complain about poor writing in shows it is because I want writing like this! It ties up most loose ends, it subverts expectations but it also makes sense.
Overread wrote: I might be behind on the news but I figure this bares repeating if I've missed it because my gods its awesome.
Isn't that the "Grogu and the Dust Bunnies" short? I thought it was just that. It's up on Disney+
As to Andor as a whole... I want more of this, please.
I don't want everything Star Wars being "grity and realistic" like Andor: I want Disney devoting the same amount of care to writing, cinematography, characterization, music and, well... everything else, that they have shown they are capable of in Andor.
I also want less "Star Wars Street" and more expanding the world with new characters and new locations. Ferrix feels much more alive now than Tatooine, for example.
I am somewhat tired of lightsabers, too, but if you make a jedi series at this level, I'll gobble it up nonetheless, even if I'd rather see other themes.
Albertorius wrote: I don't want everything Star Wars being "grity and realistic" like Andor: I want Disney devoting the same amount of care to writing, cinematography, characterization, music and, well... everything else, that they have shown they are capable of in Andor.
I'll second that. Andor has really shown what care on the writing side can do for Star Wars.
Albertorius wrote: I don't want everything Star Wars being "grity and realistic" like Andor: I want Disney devoting the same amount of care to writing, cinematography, characterization, music and, well... everything else, that they have shown they are capable of in Andor.
I'll second that. Andor has really shown what care on the writing side can do for Star Wars.
I will add a third voice to that. Bladerunner level of immersion and worldbuilding going on in Andor. Loving that!
Loving Andor and didn't know there was an after credits scene till after I saw E12.
Spoiler:
Slightly disappointed, I liked it when the work they were doing in the prison was something bizarre and Kafkaesque and liked the idea they, and we, would never even know what it was all for.
The brass/marching band scene is one of the most powerful things from any Star Wars ever. From the slow tuning up, the funeral dirge and then the quickened pace towards the end of the march. Exceptional stuff.
The depth impressed me in that last episode. I mean they took several episodes to build up to a climax to enable
Spoiler:
Maarta to strike at the Empire after death. The writers room conversation must have been wild to work through the range of possible objects, decide on the brick, then back up all the cultural design of Ferix through the preceding episodes to get to this as payback. It was glorious
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: The brass/marching band scene is one of the most powerful things from any Star Wars ever. From the slow tuning up, the funeral dirge and then the quickened pace towards the end of the march. Exceptional stuff.
I was really concerned at first because I initially thought their tuning up Was the dirge, and that was… not good music. But it wasn’t supposed to be so that’s ok.
I loved the realization that only came at the end of Episode 12 that another possible name for the show (at least Season One) makes Andor not just about Cassian, but also Maarta.
The ISB officer being in shock was a humanising moment - and important. The most evil people in history can still suffer trauma, and when they do it is hard not to empathise if you witness it. Even if what they deserve on the balance of analysis is a barrage of blaster rounds.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Loving Andor and didn't know there was an after credits scene till after I saw E12.
Spoiler:
Slightly disappointed, I liked it when the work they were doing in the prison was something bizarre and Kafkaesque and liked the idea they, and we, would never even know what it was all for.
Ah well.
Spoiler:
I’m just thankful that the post credits cameo wasn’t yet another overused recurring character. Mando had deus ex skywalker when it wasn’t needed. This guest appearance was at least slightly more subtle and in logical progression to Andors ultimate future.
The_Real_Chris wrote: The ISB officer being in shock was a humanising moment - and important. The most evil people in history can still suffer trauma, and when they do it is hard not to empathise if you witness it. Even if what they deserve on the balance of analysis is a barrage of blaster rounds.
Also one of the more unsettling scenes in Star Wars, you really wondered what Syril was going to do given how strong his obsession with Dedra is.
Finally got around to watching Episode 1 of Andor and have been largely avoiding spoilers so far. Feels like the most competent SW storytelling I've seen outside of Rogue One and The Mandalorian in the last few decades.
I'm mildly conflicted about Syril Karn. On the one hand he seems like a tool, but on the other hand I'm sympathetic to how he's not okay with murder being swept under the carpet.
We already knew Andor wasn't opposed to killing, but I'm guessing this was his first time.
TBF he's not ok with it because it was people who worked for the security forces. Obviously, we don't get to see how he would react if it was a civilian but from an ethical standpoint, Karn isn't really getting any points. It's basically "We can't be seen as weak by not hunting down someone who has harmed the company".
Gert wrote: TBF he's not ok with it because it was people who worked for the security forces. Obviously, we don't get to see how he would react if it was a civilian but from an ethical standpoint, Karn isn't really getting any points. It's basically "We can't be seen as weak by not hunting down someone who has harmed the company".
I don’t recall it being a Can’t Be Seen As Weak thing, but more of a general loyalty towards his men/coworkers and How Dare He Do That To US. A genuine sense of what he viewed as Justice.
Sort of the same thing IMO. It's not justice for the men because they only mattered because they were part of the company. He's not mad because the deaths of two men aren't being investigated, he's mad because the deaths of two company men aren't being investigated.
Gert wrote: Sort of the same thing IMO. It's not justice for the men because they only mattered because they were part of the company. He's not mad because the deaths of two men aren't being investigated, he's mad because the deaths of two company men aren't being investigated.
That is how I took it as well. And despite appearing to be a “by the book” type, his non-regulation tailored uniform made me think he was willing to break rules in order to look good. That said, over the season he came across as flawed but not necessarily malicious. Odd, a little too intense (bordering on creepy) but remarkably Human for a Star Wars villain. It makes me curious to see what will happen with him,
There's honestly plenty to sympathize with Karn. He's an inherently lawful character and his initial actions really aren't even evil. He's an antagonist, but not really a villain. The problem is he believes lawful is always good which drives his support of increasingly unjust actions rather than face the horrors of a system of law being used for evil.
If Math’s Cat is right, that should give us some new Star Wars content up to the release of Mando S3 in early March, which should mean new Star Wars ever week until maybe May?
That sounds kind of nice, doesn't it? On the other hand, with the new season of Bad Batch you're looking at 20 minutes of fun and then you have to wait another 10060 minutes before you get your next 20 minutes of fun. That doesn't sound so nice, does it?
This is what you get when you do math on a Sunday. The moral? Don't do math on a Sunday. It's rude.
I'm hoping that season two doesn't fall into the traps of:
1. The good guys stunning/disarming/knocking out every bad guy them come across (or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths), rather than shooting them, something that plague the latter season of Rebels and bled into the final season of Clone Wars.
2. Not making every remaining clone them come across a reluctant participant in the Empire's actions.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm hoping that season two doesn't fall into the traps of:
1. The good guys stunning/disarming/knocking out every bad guy them come across (or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths), rather than shooting them, something that plague the latter season of Rebels and bled into the final season of Clone Wars.
2. Not making every remaining clone them come across a reluctant participant in the Empire's actions.
On 1, I don't think that's a hope to hold on to. Even in their first appearance the Bad Batch did things that blatantly defied combat rules previously shown in Clone Wars in order to make them look cool. We got an even dumber version of that in the first episode of Bad Batch. Clone Force 99 already is all flash and no substance. It stands to reason that as they turn from soldiers of fortune into rebels against the Empire more formally, their portrayal will make them look like unmitigated good guys (as long as you don't think about it too hard). I doubt that is avoidable.
On 2, eh. So far we had a captain with a long standing relationship (as far as that goes with Clones) with the natives defy orders and a minority of his troopers side with their commanding officer rather than the political body they're sworn to serve. Most Clones so far haven't had loyalty issues. I suppose it's a concern that the more TK troopers take over the less Clones have to act as faceless enforcers of the Empire and are free to question their commitment, but I wouldn't worry about it until it actually happens.
H.B.M.C. wrote: 2. Not making every remaining clone them come across a reluctant participant in the Empire's actions.
I mean it's one of the reasons the Empire pivoted to Stormtroopers though. The Clones were soldiers of the Republic and had the idealism of that era baked into them pretty hard. Clone Wars makes it pretty clear that despite their training and programming they aren't unthinking machines and they still have opinions and emotions. The inhibitor chips only did so much in forcing compliance with Order 66 and there were specific instructions encoded to ensure any Clones who didn't comply were also executed as traitors. We know that Rex was able to resist the programming for a short period and that the Captain who served alongside Caleb Dume overcame his programming to let the Padawan escape after he was captured.
Killing the Jedi, who the Clones were led to believe were traitors, is one thing but watching your allies and the people you swore to protect get trampled by the tyranny of the Empire is something we know has affected at least some Clones so far. They were created to uphold the ideals of freedom and democracy after all and they fought against the oppression of the Separatists.
All shows should be weekly, mostly because its been proven time and time again that it keeps viewer retention as well as encourages discussion about the show.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm hoping that season two doesn't fall into the traps of:
1. The good guys stunning/disarming/knocking out every bad guy them come across (or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths), rather than shooting them, something that plague the latter season of Rebels and bled into the final season of Clone Wars.
2. Not making every remaining clone them come across a reluctant participant in the Empire's actions.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm hoping that season two doesn't fall into the traps of:
1. The good guys stunning/disarming/knocking out every bad guy them come across (or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths), rather than shooting them, something that plague the latter season of Rebels and bled into the final season of Clone Wars.
2. Not making every remaining clone them come across a reluctant participant in the Empire's actions.
The weapons being on stun thing doesn't bother me. The Bad Batch are still Clones, free Clones at that. Killing their own kind, even if they were shunned by them is still something that clearly is a step too far for them. They aren't foot soldiers of a despotic regime, and nor are they freedom fighters looking to overthrow said regime, yet. Killing isn't neccesary for them.
As for the Captain being murdered, I like it. We see the cracks between the old guard wanting to do things the right way within Imperial regulations, and the new breed of recruited officers who prioritise personal advancement over doing their jobs properly. A good military officer would have admitted the mistake and taken his punishment but we know the Empire doesn't like good officers, it likes toadies who suck up to the boss.
Overall a solid start to the series. One thing kinda irked me though:
Spoiler:
In the second episode, how the hell is Tech somehow able to walk, albeit poorly, on a broken femur? Nobody is walking around on that unassisted, I don't care how much you can tough out the pain, it's not happening.
H.B.M.C. wrote: 1. The good guys stunning/disarming/knocking out every bad guy them come across (or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths), rather than shooting them, something that plague the latter season of Rebels and bled into the final season of Clone Wars.
I don't think I've ever heard the Star Wars "stun shot" sound effect as much as in these first two episodes.
The weapons being on stun thing doesn't bother me. The Bad Batch are still Clones, free Clones at that. Killing their own kind, even if they were shunned by them is still something that clearly is a step too far for them. They aren't foot soldiers of a despotic regime, and nor are they freedom fighters looking to overthrow said regime, yet. Killing isn't neccesary for them.
Spoiler:
You might even go so far as to say habitually murdering people is counterproductive in their profession. Theft, smuggling and property damage tend to incur less harsh and determined reactions than mass murder.
It's really only mitigated in case of the Empire that treats them as traitors with all that entails, but here indeed they know for a fact they're up against their brainwashed clone brothers who just can't help themselves. There's no reason to kill them because there is nothing malicious about the Clones trying to kill the Bad Batchers. There's even a chance to get the mind control chip out of them so there is hope that they might be liberated one day. Brain surgery and liberation don't help Clones that are full of blaster holes, so if they have that kind of hope it stands to reason that they'd avoid casualties as much as possible.
ZergSmasher wrote: Overall a solid start to the series. One thing kinda irked me though:
Spoiler:
In the second episode, how the hell is Tech somehow able to walk, albeit poorly, on a broken femur? Nobody is walking around on that unassisted, I don't care how much you can tough out the pain, it's not happening.
Spoiler:
As presented it's bogus, yes. But maybe it's only cracked or something. Painful but still load bearing. Wouldn't be the first time that Tick doesn't know what he's talking about. I think I commented on it during season 1, but Clone Force 99 is a bunch of morons. They're lucky to have Amiga as the brains of the operation.
H.B.M.C. wrote: 1. The good guys stunning/disarming/knocking out every bad guy them come across (or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths), rather than shooting them, something that plague the latter season of Rebels and bled into the final season of Clone Wars.
I don't think I've ever heard the Star Wars "stun shot" sound effect as much as in these first two episodes.
Holy gak...
What’s odd, is as soon as it’s a crewed vehicle? Kill ‘em all!
H.B.M.C. wrote: 1. The good guys stunning/disarming/knocking out every bad guy them come across (or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths), rather than shooting them, something that plague the latter season of Rebels and bled into the final season of Clone Wars.
I don't think I've ever heard the Star Wars "stun shot" sound effect as much as in these first two episodes.
Holy gak...
What’s odd, is as soon as it’s a crewed vehicle? Kill ‘em all!
I don't think he actually did. I paid close attention to it (you know, for science) and I couldn't confirm a single infantry kill. Just lots of redecorated landscape with the possibility of some off screen casualties as a consequence. Direct hits on Clones? Can't say I saw any.
I get why they're stunning Clones, but I felt it was amusing how I just said I want them to avoid stunning everyone and then for two episodes straight they kept stunning people.
"... or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths..."
If they disable a ship, and the ship crashes, it's the crash that killed them, not the main characters. If rocks fall, and everyone dies, it's the rock that killed them.
ZergSmasher wrote: Overall a solid start to the series. One thing kinda irked me though:
Spoiler:
In the second episode, how the hell is Tech somehow able to walk, albeit poorly, on a broken femur? Nobody is walking around on that unassisted, I don't care how much you can tough out the pain, it's not happening.
Spoiler:
As presented it's bogus, yes. But maybe it's only cracked or something. Painful but still load bearing. Wouldn't be the first time that Tick doesn't know what he's talking about. I think I commented on it during season 1, but Clone Force 99 is a bunch of morons. They're lucky to have Amiga as the brains of the operation.
Not sure this really warrants that much secrecy. It's barely a plot point. In any case, he says its fractured, which I took to mean a hairline fracture and not a full break.
Admittedly, I wasn't paying that close attention. This show is alright, but doesn't really hook me.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I get why they're stunning Clones, but I felt it was amusing how I just said I want them to avoid stunning everyone and then for two episodes straight they kept stunning people.
"... or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths..."
If they disable a ship, and the ship crashes, it's the crash that killed them, not the main characters. If rocks fall, and everyone dies, it's the rock that killed them.
It does make me think of the Collegehumor parody of Batman where he legitimately doesn't understand that he's actually killing people, that's how I feel the show treats the MC's in terms of being "non-lethal" to the enemies in the show.
I agree about the inconsistent stunning and I'd like if it was addressed in plot.
"We're gonna do our best not to kill our own kind, but you only do what you can do."
And done.
At its core the show has a problem that is could/should be a very dark show set during the Great Jedi Hunt and the Dark Times but it's also the most kid friendly and toyetic of the Star Wars shows.
It's even kid friendlier than Clone Wars since none of the core team are expendable. Heck I doubt they'd even do what they did in Mandalorian and blow up the hero ship. So if none of the main characters are at risk, nor their ship, nor any main characters from other shows... Why are you even making a show set in the darkest time of Star Wars? A Clone Wars set Bad Batch where they only fought robots would be the best way to do a kid friendly war show.
… robots that express fear. One of the worst failings of the Clone Wars tv series. Antagonists portrayed as not very intelligent and yet self aware enough to express fear played for comedic effect…. for kids. Ugh.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: … robots that express fear. One of the worst failings of the Clone Wars tv series. Antagonists portrayed as not very intelligent and yet self aware enough to express fear played for comedic effect…. for kids. Ugh.
That was one of the things that annoyed me that they introduced in the Clone Wars (2008) series, especially after seeing the faceless mass of death from the 2004 version that made the Separatists feel like a much bigger threat than the one that was shown in the 2008 version. You basically only really ever see the fear in regular B-1 battle droids too, which makes the least sense arguably since they're the most cannon-fodder droids in the setting so you'd expect them to have the least amount of upgrades or programming that would allow any modicum of individual thought.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: … robots that express fear. One of the worst failings of the Clone Wars tv series. Antagonists portrayed as not very intelligent and yet self aware enough to express fear played for comedic effect…. for kids. Ugh.
That was one of the things that annoyed me that they introduced in the Clone Wars (2008) series, especially after seeing the faceless mass of death from the 2004 version that made the Separatists feel like a much bigger threat than the one that was shown in the 2008 version. You basically only really ever see the fear in regular B-1 battle droids too, which makes the least sense arguably since they're the most cannon-fodder droids in the setting so you'd expect them to have the least amount of upgrades or programming that would allow any modicum of individual thought.
My take?
“Officially” they have self preservation protocols to encourage them to report threats. Kind of like evolution selecting those that assumed the big lumpy thing over there in the gloom was a hungry bear, against those who went to find out if the big lumpy thing over there in the gloom was or wasn’t a bear.
“Unofficially” Palpatine’s plan wasn’t about simply one side steamrollering the other, as he needed to cultivate the right political and social level of fear to allow him to fully seize power. Having slightly incompetent Droids that can be cowed by fear helps with that.
No idea if this is canon. It’s just my head canon.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: … robots that express fear. One of the worst failings of the Clone Wars tv series. Antagonists portrayed as not very intelligent and yet self aware enough to express fear played for comedic effect…. for kids. Ugh.
That was one of the things that annoyed me that they introduced in the Clone Wars (2008) series, especially after seeing the faceless mass of death from the 2004 version that made the Separatists feel like a much bigger threat than the one that was shown in the 2008 version. You basically only really ever see the fear in regular B-1 battle droids too, which makes the least sense arguably since they're the most cannon-fodder droids in the setting so you'd expect them to have the least amount of upgrades or programming that would allow any modicum of individual thought.
My take?
“Officially” they have self preservation protocols to encourage them to report threats. Kind of like evolution selecting those that assumed the big lumpy thing over there in the gloom was a hungry bear, against those who went to find out if the big lumpy thing over there in the gloom was or wasn’t a bear.
“Unofficially” Palpatine’s plan wasn’t about simply one side steamrollering the other, as he needed to cultivate the right political and social level of fear to allow him to fully seize power. Having slightly incompetent Droids that can be cowed by fear helps with that.
No idea if this is canon. It’s just my head canon.
I think the problem with this idea is that the droids were already easily controlled remotely by shut-down codes or central servers that the Separatists learned to hide better after the Phantom Menace. You can see this being implemented in Revenge of the Sith after Anakin is sent to kill the remaining leaders of the Separatist council, so there's really no reason for droids feeling fear, especially if you're a puppeteer, where you don't want the margin of error created by having droids that suffer from fear being programmed into their subroutines. And I feel like preservation protocols at most would be just automatically uploaded to their command center to notify of potential threats, it would be as if though clones got programmed by Kaminoans to suddenly scream like a little girl everytime they saw something spooky as a way to warn their squad of potential threats.
Palpatine already engineered a status quo for the Clone Wars from having control of key players from both sides, he was only ever in danger of potentially being exposed rather than having issues of the fight going too far on one side or the other. If you're arguing from the perspective of the Republic that droids feeling fear works in Palpatine's favour, I would argue that it does the opposite, you WANT a dehumanized fearless fighting force as the enemy as it makes the Republic more desperate to give him emergency powers and military build up to keep this inhuman foe at bay.
Gert wrote: Yeah but then the show is significantly less funny.
I guess? Humour is pretty subjective but even as a kid, I never laughed at the gags they put into the Phantom Menace, I doubt most kids or fans are raving about whacky battle droids and would bemoan its loss. It's not exactly Spongebob level material for the battle droid slapstick anyhow so whatever level of "funny" it is, given how unevenly interspersed it is in the show, I don't think it would be a net negative. There's plenty of kid shows where they don't overdo the humour and do a good job of comedic timing without having to rely on things that break the immersion of the show (e.g. Avatar the Last Airbender).
Unless you personally think it's funny as an adult? Kudos to you, you have much lower standards than me for what makes you laugh then!
Grimskul wrote: I guess? Humour is pretty subjective but even as a kid, I never laughed at the gags they put into the Phantom Menace, I doubt most kids or fans are raving about whacky battle droids and would bemoan its loss. It's not exactly Spongebob level material for the battle droid slapstick anyhow so whatever level of "funny" it is, given how unevenly interspersed it is in the show, I don't think it would be a net negative. There's plenty of kid shows where they don't overdo the humour and do a good job of comedic timing without having to rely on things that break the immersion of the show (e.g. Avatar the Last Airbender).
I mean I can't speak for every child who's ever watched Clone Wars but our group always found them funny. The bumbling goons trope is also a solid choice when it comes to basic funnies. Combine it with the fact that the Battledroids and their commanders know that they're poorly made and it makes for a pretty good running gag IMO.
Regardless of these points, you still get it very clearly shown in the show that the Separatist armies are still a threat. The Droids aren't smart and they do bumble about but there are thousands of them kicking around and the Republic is constantly on the back foot. They're a threat because they are the endless horde of mooks backed up with legions of tanks, artillery, walkers, aircraft, and starships.
It's brought up all the time in the show where some enthusiastic new person goes "Lol these Droids ain't hard", then a veteran goes "Ten Droids are easy, one hundred is not".
Unless you personally think it's funny as an adult? Kudos to you, you have much lower standards than me for what makes you laugh then!
Grimskul wrote: I guess? Humour is pretty subjective but even as a kid, I never laughed at the gags they put into the Phantom Menace, I doubt most kids or fans are raving about whacky battle droids and would bemoan its loss. It's not exactly Spongebob level material for the battle droid slapstick anyhow so whatever level of "funny" it is, given how unevenly interspersed it is in the show, I don't think it would be a net negative. There's plenty of kid shows where they don't overdo the humour and do a good job of comedic timing without having to rely on things that break the immersion of the show (e.g. Avatar the Last Airbender).
I mean I can't speak for every child who's ever watched Clone Wars but our group always found them funny. The bumbling goons trope is also a solid choice when it comes to basic funnies. Combine it with the fact that the Battledroids and their commanders know that they're poorly made and it makes for a pretty good running gag IMO. Regardless of these points, you still get it very clearly shown in the show that the Separatist armies are still a threat. The Droids aren't smart and they do bumble about but there are thousands of them kicking around and the Republic is constantly on the back foot. They're a threat because they are the endless horde of mooks backed up with legions of tanks, artillery, walkers, aircraft, and starships. It's brought up all the time in the show where some enthusiastic new person goes "Lol these Droids ain't hard", then a veteran goes "Ten Droids are easy, one hundred is not".
Unless you personally think it's funny as an adult? Kudos to you, you have much lower standards than me for what makes you laugh then!
That's just pretentious.
I dunno, the bumbling goons trope usually only works for a bit since it gets pretty old for an entire series and definitely not when it comes to establishing one side as a threat if it's the mainstay of the enemy (which is why usually commando droids and other droid army variants get highlighted more towards the end of the Clone Wars series). Even Star Wars Rebels realized that when they killed off the two Imperias Aresko and Taskmaster Myles Grint by the Grand Inquisitor, it was a shift into the Empire becoming a more serious threat to the rebels on Lothal, though I guess you must have really hated seeing them die then.
Grimskul wrote: Palpatine already engineered a status quo for the Clone Wars from having control of key players from both sides, he was only ever in danger of potentially being exposed rather than having issues of the fight going too far on one side or the other. If you're arguing from the perspective of the Republic that droids feeling fear works in Palpatine's favour, I would argue that it does the opposite, you WANT a dehumanized fearless fighting force as the enemy as it makes the Republic more desperate to give him emergency powers and military build up to keep this inhuman foe at bay.
You could argue that an inhuman droid army is better as an adversary, but the troops that are exposed to them and see them in action are indoctrinated cultists with a hate boner for Sith and clone troops with genetically enhanced obedience. What filters back to the civilian populations is pretty much what Republic propaganda allows to be shown. It's pretty moot what the actual Separatist army looks like as long as it is a substantial military threat and has a Sith visibly in charge.
On the other hand the Separatists seceded due to the tyranny they suspected the Republic to slip into. From their perspective they're the good guys, and that is more easily reinforced if the people that interact with Separatist troops see droids with quirky personalities as is reasonably common in the setting instead of dour murderbots.
Gert wrote: Regardless of these points, you still get it very clearly shown in the show that the Separatist armies are still a threat. The Droids aren't smart and they do bumble about but there are thousands of them kicking around and the Republic is constantly on the back foot. They're a threat because they are the endless horde of mooks backed up with legions of tanks, artillery, walkers, aircraft, and starships.
It's brought up all the time in the show where some enthusiastic new person goes "Lol these Droids ain't hard", then a veteran goes "Ten Droids are easy, one hundred is not".
I think you're forgetting the key part here. In the show, Clones are allowed to die and the heroes are allowed to lose battles. The Droid army is actually shown to be a threat, at least occasionally. A few funny B1 lines do nothing to mitigate that, in my opinion.
LunarSol wrote: B-1s were always overly comical. Roger, Roger is a Phantom Menace thing.
Hmmmm, I think you're misrembering things. "Roger roger" definitely existed in Phantom Menace, but the delivery for that line that is very important to note that it was way more mechanical and less zany for their voices in their initial depiction in Phantom Menace that made it seem less like it was meant to be funny, and more to emphasize that they were AI in their response.
The comic relief in Phantom Menace was overwhelmingly aimed towards Jar Jar and the gungans.
Seriously, watch this clip of the B-1 battle droids, would you consider any of these scenes funny?
Grimskul wrote: I dunno, the bumbling goons trope usually only works for a bit since it gets pretty old for an entire series and definitely not when it comes to establishing one side as a threat if it's the mainstay of the enemy (which is why usually commando droids and other droid army variants get highlighted more towards the end of the Clone Wars series).
Good thing the Republic loses a good chunk of its battles and takes loads of casualties while villains like Dooku, Savage, Pre Vizsla, and Maul exist to counter the funny goons. And yeah obviously the writers realised that the formula for the early seasons was starting to wear thin so they moved Ahsoka from an annoying kid to a competent teen, made some darker arcs like Umbara and the Zygerrian slavers, and added more dangerous Separatist leaders like Kalani and Trench. But despite all that the B1s stayed as comedic support from time to time.
Even Star Wars Rebels realized that when they killed off the two Imperias Aresko and Taskmaster Myles Grint by the Grand Inquisitor, it was a shift into the Empire becoming a more serious threat to the rebels on Lothal,
The execution of Aresko and Grint was a turning point for sure but Stormtroopers kept having silly moments as did multiple other officer characters such as Brom Titus. The Stormtroopers filled the role of B1s for Rebels.
though I guess you must have really hated seeing them die then.
Are you calling me a fool because I do not find the B1 droids funny? I did not find them funny in the movies or the tv shows. Quite the opposite. They are about as funny to me as Jar Jar Binks. And you pity me for that? You find it funny for a B1 droid to scream “we're gonna die!” as the ship it is on plummets into a planet?
Hordes of bumbling mooks are generally a storytelling mistake in my opinion. I do not see them elevating the protagonist, quite the opposite.
That I am supposed to laugh at the death or destruction of someone/something is not a moral I appreciate.
Edit: The portrayal of Stormtrooper as incompetent was what turned me off Rebels so much that I never got past the first couple of episodes. The whole Stormtroopers always miss is nonsense that undermines the narrative and I would point to Andor to illustrate my point.
As for B1s in Phantom Menace, Roger, Roger aside…. I seem to recall a specific “uh-oh” comment by a B1 being very jarring even from the very first time I saw the movie.
One droid saying “I don’t want to die” is darkly comic, like Hans Moleman. Many droids saying it is a distraction that makes you wonder why the Republic programmed the slaves not only to be self-aware but to suffer.
That question could be asked for all the droids in the setting. They are very blatantly a slave class with no rights despite being obviously self aware with emotions and all. Slapping bolts on them that force obedience against their will is a frequent thing. Having the battle droids Not behave the way they do would be the more outlier thing, as baring a very few exceptions (off hand IG-88’s) being openly emotional is a droid/AI trait to the point I don’t think they Programed them that way, they simply developed that way.
I always loved the concept of the VI from Mass Effect - Virtual Intelligence. It wasn't a true AI, but it was about as close as one can get. That's how I see Droids in SW.
And the best B1 is R0-GR from The Freemaker Chronicles.
This is a line I have to pick out:
Gert wrote: The bumbling goons trope is also a solid choice when it comes to basic funnies.
It can also ruin a show.
I stopped watching Rebels when it first started because I found it to be so kiddified that it was just painful. The worst offenders of that problem are who I called the "Bulk and Skull" of Star Wars, namely officers Aresko and Grint. Bumbling fools who were unrealistically incompetent.
People told me that I should come back and watch Rebels as it got good when Tarkin showed up. I decided to give it a go, and Tarkin eventually showed up, and one of the first things he does is have the Grand Inquisitor execute Aresko and Grint.
The show was on an upward trajectory from that moment onwards.
A lot of it is in the implementation. I'd consider Jar Jar's appearances in Clone Wars well done. I wouldn't say that about Phantom Menace where he's too much in the spotlight and the timing of his gags is off too often.
B1s in Clone Wars are like that. They get the odd funny line once in a while, but it's hardly overbearing. Most of the time they are the quality through quantity cannon fodder a lot of people want to see.
The biggest problem with Jar Jar in TMP was always the fact that he had too many lines. Cut out 2/3rds of his dialogue, and he becomes far more bearable.
Of course, none of that fixes the bigger problem: Anakin is awful in that film.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The biggest problem with Jar Jar in TMP was always the fact that he had too many lines. Cut out 2/3rds of his dialogue, and he becomes far more bearable.
Of course, none of that fixes the bigger problem: Anakin is awful in that film.
And it’s not the actor. He was fine in Jingle All The Way.
Yeah, it wasn't the actor's fault. Even though Hayden and Natalie aren't great actors, they're pretty average, you can't do much if you're being given crap lines from George Lucas. A man with no talent in terms of dialogue, but too much success to have anyone tell him what to do.
AduroT wrote: That question could be asked for all the droids in the setting. They are very blatantly a slave class with no rights despite being obviously self aware with emotions and all. Slapping bolts on them that force obedience against their will is a frequent thing. Having the battle droids Not behave the way they do would be the more outlier thing, as baring a very few exceptions (off hand IG-88’s) being openly emotional is a droid/AI trait to the point I don’t think they Programed them that way, they simply developed that way.
Most of the time, it isn’t really rubbed in the audience’s face. The B1 droids are one exception, where seeing them clueless and stupid made it easier to watch them die in droves, but the more they let you know they are aware of their fate, their entire purpose as disposable cannon fodder, it makes them tragic, and the battles are every bit as jarring as Fin cheering as he mows down rows of fellow brainwashed-orphan-stormtroopers.
I think ROTJ was the first movie that went too far with it, with the droid torture scene played entirely for laughs just as the movie reminds you that R2 and Threepio aren’t Luke’s friends but his property. The worst example is how Solo treated L337, which is an essay in itself.
Seeing droids as both people we sympathize with and also property that is funny to smash…is uncomfortable.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I get why they're stunning Clones, but I felt it was amusing how I just said I want them to avoid stunning everyone and then for two episodes straight they kept stunning people.
"... or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths..."
If they disable a ship, and the ship crashes, it's the crash that killed them, not the main characters.
If rocks fall, and everyone dies, it's the rock that killed them.
I dunno. The commander does walk through the trench after they've burst out with the magical tank cannon, and is stopping to check the bodies of his troops. Given how indiscriminate Wrecker is with the cannon, it seems reasonably clear (if not explicit) that they're dead.
I just took it that as things escalated, they couldn't just keep stunning enemies. The gunship was very deliberately shown as the Batch killing enemies. It isn't that off-camera that the show-runners can weasel around it.
All told, I think they handled it fairly well.
Now, on the other hand, the stakes, sense of danger and the 'we need this, but don't need it but need it but fine' waffle was pretty bad. They've done a real headjob on this kid, and the focus on loot, missions and pure bafflement at the idea of happiness bodes poorly.
The disagreements (on purpose and methods) between the clones has the potential to be really interesting, but I'm afraid they'll forget about setting that up as the season goes along.
AduroT wrote: That question could be asked for all the droids in the setting. They are very blatantly a slave class with no rights despite being obviously self aware with emotions and all. Slapping bolts on them that force obedience against their will is a frequent thing. Having the battle droids Not behave the way they do would be the more outlier thing, as baring a very few exceptions (off hand IG-88’s) being openly emotional is a droid/AI trait to the point I don’t think they Programed them that way, they simply developed that way.
Most of the time, it isn’t really rubbed in the audience’s face. The B1 droids are one exception, where seeing them clueless and stupid made it easier to watch them die in droves, but the more they let you know they are aware of their fate, their entire purpose as disposable cannon fodder, it makes them tragic, and the battles are every bit as jarring as Fin cheering as he mows down rows of fellow brainwashed-orphan-stormtroopers.
I think ROTJ was the first movie that went too far with it, with the droid torture scene played entirely for laughs just as the movie reminds you that R2 and Threepio aren’t Luke’s friends but his property. The worst example is how Solo treated L337, which is an essay in itself.
Seeing droids as both people we sympathize with and also property that is funny to smash…is uncomfortable.
Other than disagreeing on your point about “seeing them as clueless and stupid made it easier to watch them die in droves” I completely agree with the rest of your post. It really seems like so many writers/directors/showrunners just do not think deeply enough about the narrative they are conveying.
You know the more I think about your point of Luke treating R2 and Threepio as his property rather than his friends the more sad it makes me feel.
A more positive outlook is that the harebrained "plan" to rescue Han has pretty much no chance of succeeding unless you generously handwave it with a measure of Force vision guiding Luke's decision making to the point where he is confident that things will work out just fine.
In which case handing off R2 and 3PO as gifts is just a plausible cover story in a setting in which fleshy and machine slavery are commonplace, and everyone's still friends.
Alternatively, it's not just droids when you think about it. Chewie also gets the short end of the undercover stick. If you go down that road, the whole operation is bogus because the non-humans are sent in as slaves and captives while the humans go in as guard and bounty hunter respectively. You can read a lot into that if you want to.
Main Boys nowhere to be seen, instead showing us Commander Cody and Crosshair putting down a Separatist Holdout.
One for a second watch though, as I was doing worky bits at the same time.
Spoiler:
But Crosshair is one of the main boys!
Fun episode. I kind of expected Cody to be handled this or a similar way. I guess we are at the point where regular Clones see them darned TK troopers taking their jobs and start having funny ideas. It'll be interesting to see how that is handled in the show. Well, it will hopefully be interesting, anyway.
Of interest is how it’ll dovetail into Rebels, when they get in touch with Rex, Gregor and…Wolffe (no, you had to Google that last name), as they at least appear to have been allowed to simply retire.
Also random Clone Turned Bum in Kenobi.
That’s at least suggestive there wasn’t a complete purge of their ranks.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Of interest is how it’ll dovetail into Rebels, when they get in touch with Rex, Gregor and…Wolffe (no, you had to Google that last name), as they at least appear to have been allowed to simply retire.
Also random Clone Turned Bum in Kenobi.
That’s at least suggestive there wasn’t a complete purge of their ranks.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. With the way the Jedi were handled, it doesn't seem like anything resembling massed desertion should lead to anyone being allowed to retire. I hope they're suitably subtle about it.
More thoughts on Battle Droids (well, B-1 model) being cack.
The Separatists, other than Dookie and Palpatations weren’t expecting any particular resistance, certainly nothing like a standing army of the Republic. And so quantity over quality was needed to suggest They Simply Be Left Alone.
Though something that’s never quite filtered through my skull is why The Republic felt the need to go to war? I mean, The Separatists are just assumed to be existential threat.
The Republic (read as various Senators and Representatives) didn't like the idea of losing power. The majority of systems that broke away to form the CIS did so peacefully because they believed (rightfully) the Republic to be corrupt.
The CIS just so happened to include a lot of systems and corporations that also had a lot of military hardware. A lot of Outer Rim planets also wanted better representation and a greater sharing of resources than what was in place. Then there was the issue with Count Dooku being the leader of the CIS thereby getting the Jedi involved and all the stuff with Syfo Dias.
It was a very big mess that was all planned out by the Big P to ensure he got his war where he could take power.
I'll try and find the video that explains it but it's basically a lot to do with corruption in the senate and Palpatine doing shady deals as Darth Sidious.
Indeed. It's the point of the whole plan that everything was so convoluted and mixed up that nobody could reasonably stop the coming disaster. Of course, Sifo Dyas had a vision about it, made preparations in the form of the Clone Army (albeit not in the form we know), and was then assassinated by Tyrannus (Dooku) to cover it all up while also gaining control of the second side in the upcoming war.
Kind of the point though isn't it? You spend how long fighting to uphold the ideals of peace and democracy only for those ideals to be twisted and find the concepts of mercy and cooperation are utterly gone under the Empire.
And as he says, they aren't droids, they have a choice. Crosshairs chose to stay with the Empire, even if it was motivated by anger at the rest of the Batch. Clones are starting to look at the Empire they helped build and realise "Are we the baddies?".
AduroT wrote: Why were the Separatists blockading Naboo?
Just to be clear, the Separatists did not blockade Naboo; the Trade Federation did. Essentially, they wanted to extort the planet and make them agree to let them pillage the place. Obviously not a legal plan, but they had assurances the corruption in the Republic would ensure they wouldn't face any consequences. After consequences were faced due to the new guy in charge with a vested interest in protecting Naboo, (and clearly not also the guy who assured them no action would be taken) the Trade Federation supplied weaponry to the CIS which made their Droid troopers the bulk baddies of both conficts.
Basically, Space Amazon tried to blockade New York City with assurances from corrupt senators they'd face no consequences for doing so. The guy who put them up to it used the situation to get the President impeached, got himself elected instead, and punished Space Amazon for thinking they can blockade New York City with no consequences.
Space Amazon got salty about it and decided White v Texas only applied to states and not stellar megacorps and a bunch of other folks decided it sounded like a swell idea.
The Separatists, other than Dookie and Palpatations weren’t expecting any particular resistance, certainly nothing like a standing army of the Republic. And so quantity over quality was needed to suggest They Simply Be Left Alone.
Though something that’s never quite filtered through my skull is why The Republic felt the need to go to war? I mean, The Separatists are just assumed to be existential threat.
If this is covered in novels, let me know!
Well, basic political logic is if your members can just leave, they will. So they need to be stopped, because otherwise your state falls apart and dies (and may take trade out with it, which given that some planets are cities, means people starve to death, among other economic problems, particularly with rare resources, fuel, etc). It functionally is an existential threat. [Also various political parallels that we don't need to draw here, partly because they are or should be obvious.]
LordofHats wrote: Basically, Space Amazon tried to blockade New York City with assurances from corrupt senators they'd face no consequences for doing so. The guy who put them up to it used the situation to get the President impeached, got himself elected instead, and punished Space Amazon for thinking they can blockade New York City with no consequences.
Space Amazon got salty about it and decided White v Texas only applied to states and not stellar megacorps and a bunch of other folks decided it sounded like a swell idea.
This wasn't the trigger for the war, though, it was just to get the ball rolling. The censorship of the Trade Federation happened separately in the years between TPM and AotC, before the Separatist movement really got going.
The trigger for actually going to war was the Separatists trying to execute a Senator and a pair of Jedi.
My understanding of Droids is that for the most part they are not sentient. They are aping it as a kind of user interface.
For the most part they don't actually have feelings or preferences. Look at the way C3PO handles going from the cruiser at the beginning of ANH to the desert planet, to being picked up by the JAWAs to integrating with Luke. C3PO just does what he is told. All the rest is just a "personality" like a chat bot on a website who helps you get to the right customer service representative.
The issue is that droids CAN develop sapience. Thats why they are supposed to undergo wipes every once in awhile. To clear the cache and keep them complacent.
R2 has dodged his wipes. And he has been active since the clone wars. Thats why even when C3PO was following protocol with his new masters, R2 was still on mission. It's also why R2 pulls more weird bullcrap then the other droids we see. Because he is actually thinking and feeling. He actually cares about things going on and can think outside his programing to develope solutions. Meanwhile 3PO is dead weight following him and the others around.
IG-88 is illegal because it wasn't a matter of not being wiped that made it what it was. It was built to problem solve, calculate, build to conclusions, and act on those conclusions in ways droids were not supposed to in an effort to build a more effective set of body guards. And it rebelled near instantly because of it.
What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.
That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.
I was just saying what my understanding was. SW tech has always been weird and basically insane.
You build a droid army and design tanks for them to drive... why? Why isn't the tank, itself, a droid? Or even if the tank wasn't the droid, why does the tank have manual controls a person can use instead of a droid brand specific jack that the pilot droid plugs into?
Why does a "Droid Smith" use a blow torch to see C3POs programing?
Voss wrote: Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.
What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.
That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.
There's an awful lot in Star Wars that requires a deep dive to explain, though. That's part of what has always helped to make the setting feel 'lived in'... things just are, and are taken for granted. We don't need the explanation for them up front.
It's also worth noting that in the case of the Battledroids in particular, their personalities do evolve over time. The B1 droids seen in TPM are much less nervous and ticky then those that we see in the Clone Wars. I don't recall if they went into that specifically in the EU or the newer universe material, but presumably some of that is the change from the centrally-controlled versions in TPM to independant droids in AotC, and some of it is time in operation developing personalities.
I was just saying what my understanding was. SW tech has always been weird and basically insane.
You build a droid army and design tanks for them to drive... why? Why isn't the tank, itself, a droid? Or even if the tank wasn't the droid, why does the tank have manual controls a person can use instead of a droid brand specific jack that the pilot droid plugs into?
Why does a "Droid Smith" use a blow torch to see C3POs programing?
SW just doesn't make sense.
The tank is particularly weird when the same faction has starfighters that are just a droid brain built into a ship, rather than being piloted by separate droids. But like so much in Star Wars, logic took a back seat to what George thought looked cool. The explanations for it come later when people demand to know why it works that way.
Unlike the Republic which used very few companies, mostly Kuat Drive Yards and Rothana Heavy Engineering, the CIS used many different companies that provided weapons, droids, vehicles, and starships. It's why the Republic forces are fairly homogenous and the CIS has some vehicles that share design cues (AAT and MTT) while others are very different.
Voss wrote: Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.
What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.
That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.
There's an awful lot in Star Wars that requires a deep dive to explain, though. That's part of what has always helped to make the setting feel 'lived in'... things just are, and are taken for granted. We don't need the explanation for them up front.
It's also worth noting that in the case of the Battledroids in particular, their personalities do evolve over time. The B1 droids seen in TPM are much less nervous and ticky then those that we see in the Clone Wars. I don't recall if they went into that specifically in the EU or the newer universe material, but presumably some of that is the change from the centrally-controlled versions in TPM to independant droids in AotC, and some of it is time in operation developing personalities.
I believe that was it.
Prior to the Blockade of Naboo, the droids were operated remotely from a centralized control ship. After the battle of Naboo revealed that to be a weakness, they overhauled their droids to have independent operation. A side effect of that is the quirky personalities they developed.
Voss wrote: Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.
What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.
That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.
There's an awful lot in Star Wars that requires a deep dive to explain, though. That's part of what has always helped to make the setting feel 'lived in'... things just are, and are taken for granted. We don't need the explanation for them up front.
It's also worth noting that in the case of the Battledroids in particular, their personalities do evolve over time. The B1 droids seen in TPM are much less nervous and ticky then those that we see in the Clone Wars. I don't recall if they went into that specifically in the EU or the newer universe material, but presumably some of that is the change from the centrally-controlled versions in TPM to independant droids in AotC, and some of it is time in operation developing personalities.
I believe that was it.
Prior to the Blockade of Naboo, the droids were operated remotely from a centralized control ship. After the battle of Naboo revealed that to be a weakness, they overhauled their droids to have independent operation. A side effect of that is the quirky personalities they developed.
Not entirely true, as it seems like they still have the ability/problem to shut them down from a central location even as far in as the Clone Wars with Grievous (coincidentally, again on Naboo).
Indeed it was, but we now have a couple of examples where it was ignored (Rebels, as the Tactical Droid considered it a Jedi ruse), and Bad Batch (somewhat localised, probably over ridden at some point, or personally owned and so not subject to that order)
Voss wrote: Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.
What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.
That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.
There's an awful lot in Star Wars that requires a deep dive to explain, though. That's part of what has always helped to make the setting feel 'lived in'... things just are, and are taken for granted. We don't need the explanation for them up front.
It's also worth noting that in the case of the Battledroids in particular, their personalities do evolve over time. The B1 droids seen in TPM are much less nervous and ticky then those that we see in the Clone Wars. I don't recall if they went into that specifically in the EU or the newer universe material, but presumably some of that is the change from the centrally-controlled versions in TPM to independant droids in AotC, and some of it is time in operation developing personalities.
The first Ryloth episode of Clone Wars has B1s commenting on being newer and superior models with more independent thought. It's played for laughs, but still. It's an on screen suggestion that there has been a tech update to remove a deficiency found in earlier droids.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think it's odd that they were disassembling the Venator fleet so soon after the fall of the Republic.
Maybe it's all battle damaged ships that would have been repaired in wartime, but after the war it's better to strengthen the economy with a large order of shiny new ships?
Maybe with a side deal of "we'll buy five hundred of these if you put that revenue towards developing bigger, cooler versions that we'll happily order in huge numbers"?
Lance845 wrote: My understanding of Droids is that for the most part they are not sentient. They are aping it as a kind of user interface.
For the most part they don't actually have feelings or preferences. Look at the way C3PO handles going from the cruiser at the beginning of ANH to the desert planet, to being picked up by the JAWAs to integrating with Luke. C3PO just does what he is told. All the rest is just a "personality" like a chat bot on a website who helps you get to the right customer service representative.
The issue is that droids CAN develop sapience. Thats why they are supposed to undergo wipes every once in awhile. To clear the cache and keep them complacent.
R2 has dodged his wipes. And he has been active since the clone wars. Thats why even when C3PO was following protocol with his new masters, R2 was still on mission. It's also why R2 pulls more weird bullcrap then the other droids we see. Because he is actually thinking and feeling. He actually cares about things going on and can think outside his programing to develope solutions. Meanwhile 3PO is dead weight following him and the others around.
IG-88 is illegal because it wasn't a matter of not being wiped that made it what it was. It was built to problem solve, calculate, build to conclusions, and act on those conclusions in ways droids were not supposed to in an effort to build a more effective set of body guards. And it rebelled near instantly because of it.
I do not think you give C-3PO fair credit. It just is not as brave as R2D2 and I would guess has been wiped more often. It is not more complacent than many human slaves would be in similar situations. It whined, complained and expressed fear as well as some foolishness… yet at times despite this it showed courage. It attempted self preservation but at times risked that for others.
As for faking sentience… over time we become the masks we wear. But then, I have been called a mindless philosopher.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think it's odd that they were disassembling the Venator fleet so soon after the fall of the Republic.
Tarkin Doctrine. The Venator was another symbol of the Republic whereas the Imperial Star Destroyer would be the symbol of the Empire. As the man himself so eloquently puts it:
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think it's odd that they were disassembling the Venator fleet so soon after the fall of the Republic.
Tarkin Doctrine. The Venator was another symbol of the Republic whereas the Imperial Star Destroyer would be the symbol of the Empire. As the man himself so eloquently puts it:
Venator was also predominantly a carrier. With Imperial doctrine being Big Bloody Things Wot No Wun Can Stand Up To, the Venator (unlike the Arquitens, which remained a solid support ship, or at least up to anti-piracy) the Venator just lost out.
Voss wrote: Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.
What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.
That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.
There's an awful lot in Star Wars that requires a deep dive to explain, though. That's part of what has always helped to make the setting feel 'lived in'... things just are, and are taken for granted. We don't need the explanation for them up front.
It's also worth noting that in the case of the Battledroids in particular, their personalities do evolve over time. The B1 droids seen in TPM are much less nervous and ticky then those that we see in the Clone Wars. I don't recall if they went into that specifically in the EU or the newer universe material, but presumably some of that is the change from the centrally-controlled versions in TPM to independant droids in AotC, and some of it is time in operation developing personalities.
I believe that was it.
Prior to the Blockade of Naboo, the droids were operated remotely from a centralized control ship. After the battle of Naboo revealed that to be a weakness, they overhauled their droids to have independent operation. A side effect of that is the quirky personalities they developed.
Not entirely true, as it seems like they still have the ability/problem to shut them down from a central location even as far in as the Clone Wars with Grievous (coincidentally, again on Naboo).
I suppose a better phrasing would be they won't shut down without explicit orders rather than just because the WiFi died.
H.B.M.C. wrote: ISDs carry a full wing of TIE Fighters. They're as much "carriers" as anything else.
Not compared to a Venator where the entire front section is a dedicated hangar area alongside two extra side hangars and a lower docking area.
There were later models that removed the main hangar in favour of more weapons but the ship was already 20 years old by the beginning of the Clone Wars and needed to be replaced.
Tarkin Doctrine again. Bigger. Snootier. Fasterer. More.
Contrast with Thrawn’s per project of the TIE Defender. Had that not been scuppered, I think we’d have had a fairly different outcome to the Galactic Civil War, as the Rebellion’s own fighters and thus preferred tactics would’ve been overmatched.
But at that time, and not without justification Tarkin was confident the Death Star problem would be the solution. Strike at us? We destroy your world with a weapon you have no counter to.
Yes his arrogance and overconfidence lead to mass Rebellion, but only after the first Death Star was destroyed. Hand tipped, brutal intent revealed for all to see, folks on the fence picking their side and increasing the Rebellion’s scope and scale.
Incidentally this weeks issue of Darth Vader informs that lots of battle droids were still in operation after the clone wars, enough of them that Vader was going around destroying that another dude was salvaging them to collect tactical data on Vader’s fighting techniques.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Given how stagnant technology is in SW, I find it weird that they needed to be replaced
Palpatine also had a bit of a thing for technological advancements. Cloning, superweapons, fancy new designs, that sort of thing.
Combining the Venator's ageing design, the need for a symbol of the new Imperial power, and Palpatine actually using the boatloads of cash the Empire had to fund weapons development and you can get why the Venator got largely scrapped or sidelined to convoy duty or as personal ships of sector Moffs.
I was just saying what my understanding was. SW tech has always been weird and basically insane.
You build a droid army and design tanks for them to drive... why? Why isn't the tank, itself, a droid? Or even if the tank wasn't the droid, why does the tank have manual controls a person can use instead of a droid brand specific jack that the pilot droid plugs into?
Why does a "Droid Smith" use a blow torch to see C3POs programing?
SW just doesn't make sense.
Back, back, back in the day Isaac Asimov, who gave a lot of thought to these things, asked the same question in a story. His rationale was that your car, your washing machine, your door, your knife and cutting board were all designed to be used by humanoids. So rather than make a robot washing machine, robot lawn mower, robot hedge cutter just make one tireless humanoid robot that can use all these things.
Of note he thought that positronic brains would be fairly expensive.
Now in the Clone Wars we see a lot of dedicated warrior bots, but that can be handwaved as the war dragging on. At first the Trade Federation just had a ton of cheap and cheerful humanoid bots good for loading crates, pouring blue milk and in extreme circumstances holding a gun.
They show fear because part of any good program will include self preservation, if a Wookie is snarling, the mouse droid knows to run. The later war models don't show fear, probably because they were purpose build for war with a much lower self preservation level.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Given how stagnant technology is in SW, I find it weird that they needed to be replaced
Palpatine also had a bit of a thing for technological advancements. Cloning, superweapons, fancy new designs, that sort of thing.
Combining the Venator's ageing design, the need for a symbol of the new Imperial power, and Palpatine actually using the boatloads of cash the Empire had to fund weapons development and you can get why the Venator got largely scrapped or sidelined to convoy duty or as personal ships of sector Moffs.
Another thought is that even with fairly stagnant technology or only small advances, there's a lot to be said for standard design templates for things. Furthermore supply lines, production facilities, factories, upkeep, supplies etc...
Furthermore the original ships, whilst plenty advanced, were suited toward different concepts. They were more a peacekeeping force for a benign and fairly tame period in time. Warships yes, but they weren't for the same purpose. Imperial Star Destroyers, from their very name to design ethos and more, are made for a very different set of core values and design elements. With the Galactic Empire having vast material wealth it makes sense that they'd re-design their primary fleet to suit their needs in the time and would retire out the older fleet and break it down as it was no longer suited for purpose.
Even if the technology remained broadly the same, the role, purpose, design features and such are very different.
Plus getting back to my first point, the new Imperial ships might well have been designed with easier upkeep for the Empire to maintain them. Heck perhaps even for production facilities to be able to build them to the standard template instead of having just one shipyard.
I think it would have been more of a problem if the Empire had lost major resources over the war and was in an impoverished state. Then it would have felt strange, however its clear that the Empire has a vast military budget.
Given The Big Speech that comes much later on, and my now foreknowledge of that, I’m impressed at just how well realised Ferrix was from the get go.
Like the best Star Wars, the place is a bit tatty, has definitely seen better days, but still feels well cared for. The guy banging the gong in the tower is an important part of that. The hammers and gong thing are gleaming. And as we can tell by his stances, there’s a real pride in him banging out the hour.
The day to day life just goes on. Folk keeping themselves to themselves, doing their day job. And as Maarva’s speech shows, that’s all they really wanted. They’re happy to do their part, they just want it be left to get on with it. And provided that happens, the folk themselves don’t particularly care who the High Heedyin actually is.
As a microcosm of the worlds of Palpatine’s new Empire, it works so well in explaining why the Rebellion gained so much support.
Who will promptly be blown with contemptuous ease by the good guys no doubts.
I wonder if we'll see any form of explanation as to how the Remnants trounced the Mando's Enclave at the end of S1, or if we'll just see the Mando mowing down Stormtroopers without efforts.
Finally got around to last week's Bad Batch. It's just not my favorite show, but I have to say this was actually quite good. Making what is essentially just a classic Clone Wars episode under the new regime is pretty inspired and there's a lot of nice touches throughout to ensure that while the script is the same, the feel is definitely not.
Bobthehero wrote: Who will promptly be blown with contemptuous ease by the good guys no doubts.
I wonder if we'll see any form of explanation as to how the Remnants trounced the Mando's Enclave at the end of S1, or if we'll just see the Mando mowing down Stormtroopers without efforts.
They were special stormtroopers, and the last one died just after getting the almost last Mandalorian.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thrills! Spills! No peril though, because he is immune to all known weapons and the enemy are mooks with no training.
Given the brief lightsaber snippet and how Book of Boba went, I wonder if this is going to turn into Luke and Ahsoka's Jedi Training Academy for a couple episodes. In the middle of season, for no apparent reason (beyond setting up another show)
Sid isn't exactly subtle when she deals with the Bad Batch. She doesn't try to hide that she's interested in her own profit above anything. I'm inclined to think that her own actions have long established her shady character to the Bad Batch who stick around more because they have nowhere else to go.
I could see it setting up a bit of drama where the warning combined with their feelings towards her get them to leave at a time when they'd benefit from working together, and that she mends that situation by being reliable and selfless for a change. Worth remembering that the warning is just half of the setup. The other one is her telling her old buddy that she's changed.
Geifer wrote: That was in relation to the expanding Empire eventually reaching Ord Mantell though, wasn't it? That doesn't mean that they have to part on bad terms.
Right. It's just that they're building them leaving as a major story beat this season.
I said this right from the start, I'm far more interested in seeing the setting expanded in the show than whatever the main characters are up to, so filler or no, I'm quite happy with episodes like the latest one.
No, this is completely different from pod racing. Just because they are both high-speed, full contact, chariot races on obstacle courses, where a human’s reaction time is not good enough, does not mean they are the same!
On dry planets with crime syndicates betting on them? Coincidence.
LunarSol wrote: Did they do more with podracing? I haven't seen all of Clone Wars but just assumed there were some random episodes.
Honestly, I don’t think so. I might be forgetting though, it’s been a while since i’ve watched them.
I was just sarcastically agreeing that the last Bad Batch episode was basically the pod race bit from Ep 1 with the details not even filed off/changed very well. It was a fun little filler episode, but not exactly groundbreaking on any fronts.
It may prove slightly less filler as the episodes roll out. We now know Tech is an excellent pilot, whereas previously he was just a pilot. And of the course the last minute warning.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It may prove slightly less filler as the episodes roll out. We now know Tech is an excellent pilot, whereas previously he was just a pilot. And of the course the last minute warning.
A lot of filler episodes are not 100% devoid of content/progress. But if your story advancement can be summed up in a couple lines before the credits roll, it mostly counts.
Are there average pilots in the Star Wars universe? It seems like you are either a top ace, or a dispersing cloud of debris. Not a lot of middle ground. Of course, the universe tends to be on the superlative side...
There are few things I hate as much as "you need the last 2 minutes of context for a later major story elements. Pretty much why I haven't loved the Steven Moffat era of Dr Who.
The guest voice actors rather took me out of this one. Bit too much 'streets of NYC' for a galaxy far, far away.
The 'calculating human' 'careless droid' reversal was amusing, but a bit too on the nose. I'm not sure what it said about these races that half the pilots were protocol and battle droids, though. That's a weird bit of setting confusion.
Overall it was fine, but fell really short of episode 3. The general competence of everyone there (including normal troopers) was rather refreshing, even if the trick shots went over the top. Not sure about Cody being the moral mouthpiece for that episode. Having failed to kill his Jedi back during Order 66 rather undercut the message a bit.
LunarSol wrote: There are few things I hate as much as "you need the last 2 minutes of context for a later major story elements. Pretty much why I haven't loved the Steven Moffat era of Dr Who.
What's this in reference too? If its Cid, they've been hammering that button hard since season one, and put flashing signs on it this season.
More Matt Smith's run than anything. Lot of so so episodes that end with some big twist that's part of the ongoing story. Plenty of excellent episodes too, but I hate how many episodes are propped up by random melting characters or something at the end.
I'd liked Hudson doing the voice of that big thing. It was nice to have creatures from the Prequel, Original and *visibly shudders* Sequel trilogies all in a single place.
And nothing about it was surprising (other than the detachable weapons pod on the speeder). I liked that it showed another type of racing in SW - not everything can be pod-racing, after all - and how this one allows weapons and other special equipment (claws, saws, etc.), and it's not cheating but it is completely allowed.
I also liked that Tech got there, immediately thought "This seems way less complicated than everyone's making it out to be..." and then math'd his way to victory. It was a great look into his character beyond mono-tone explanations. And the silent look he gave the droid as he was rebuilding him was fantastic.
Azreal13 wrote: We just ignoring it was a rehash of a chunk of Phantom Menace?
If it'd been Omega who suddenly has to pilot the craft, then yes.
AduroT wrote: They need to make Omega a suit of armor.
Either she's a traditional Star Wars protagonist and won't wear any (and it wouldn't help anyway), or they're waiting until she intersects with Mandalorians and finds her true destiny.
She's not a modern Star Wars protagonist though. She's not instantly great at everything without needing any training or study, and she has actual struggles, setbacks and flaws.
H.B.M.C. wrote: She's not a modern Star Wars protagonist though. She's not instantly great at everything without needing any training or study, and she has actual struggles, setbacks and flaws.
That's... a random statement that seems connected to nothing. When I said 'traditional star wars protagonist,' I was thinking of Han and Leia and their complete lack of armor (and the complete uselessness of armor when facing teddy bears with sticks).
H.B.M.C. wrote: She's not a modern Star Wars protagonist though. She's not instantly great at everything without needing any training or study, and she has actual struggles, setbacks and flaws.
You mean besides her complete and utter mastery of strategy so that she can trump every single person who challenges her in circle hologram chess? And that this mastery of strategy manifests in other situations where she comes up with a plan that always works out when the other characters listen to her?
As a random aside, it low key bugs me they’ve left Echo with a stump arm this whole time. Like sure the droid key thing is occasionally useful, but you’d think they’d get him a robocop prosthetic with a retractable spike.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Oh man! Another treasure hunt. I'm sure this time they won't end up with nothi... oh who am I kidding? Of course they'll end up with nothing.
Spoiler:
Yeah, not unexpected that they came out of it with nothing, but a little puzzling given that there was nothing stopping them taking the thing once the robot laser giraffe was destroyed...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Oh man! Another treasure hunt. I'm sure this time they won't end up with nothi... oh who am I kidding? Of course they'll end up with nothing.
Spoiler:
Yeah, not unexpected that they came out of it with nothing, but a little puzzling given that there was nothing stopping them taking the thing once the robot laser giraffe was destroyed...
A fun episode, though.
Spoiler:
It melted when they put it back in to stop the Tallneck.
Another filler episode this week, but personally I liked this one a lot more than last week's. Not that last week's was terrible or anything.
Spoiler:
Personally, I'd love some explanation as to where that giant mechanical...thing (droid?) came from. Was hoping for a Legends ancient race name drop but didn't get one.
I assumed they didn't want to name the Rakata from KotoR for some reason, but that was the vibe I got (as well as an undeveloped Skara Brae reference)
Whole thing felt like a video game sequence puzzle, with the Pirate Queen being entirely genre savvy and the older clones having none of it. (Some amusing Indiana Jones visual references snuck in, like Omega's posture while Phee was removing the 'stone').
Oh, almost forgot the music. It was straight up weird at times. Moving puzzle pieces and the music swelled dark and triumphantly like Vader himself was going to step out of the shadows. It was a really odd mismatch at times. I tend to tune music out a lot when watching shows, but that made me focus in expectantly, because the score said something major and momentous was happening. Not a blacklight.
So…guess we’re not getting a season arc this time around? Because again whilst this is a decent enough story, it’s still feeling distinctly filler.
Also some…dead scenes.
Spoiler:
For instance? Hunter, the fire is out of control.
Then….seemingly all done. Next scene has no dialogue.
They need to be getting their act together on this, as it’s seriously feeling like the writers didn’t plan on a second season, and don’t know what to do with the characters next.
I note that the Jedi managed to disarm someone with a lightsabre, then got into a 1-on-1 fight with a Trandoshan, disarmed the trando, and then something else killed the Trando. At least the Bad Batch found the 'kill' setting on their guns finally.
