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 LunarSol wrote:
B-1s were always overly comical. Roger, Roger is a Phantom Menace thing.

Hmmmm, I think you're misrembering things. "Roger roger" definitely existed in Phantom Menace, but the delivery for that line that is very important to note that it was way more mechanical and less zany for their voices in their initial depiction in Phantom Menace that made it seem less like it was meant to be funny, and more to emphasize that they were AI in their response.

The comic relief in Phantom Menace was overwhelmingly aimed towards Jar Jar and the gungans.




Seriously, watch this clip of the B-1 battle droids, would you consider any of these scenes funny?

 Grimskul wrote:
I dunno, the bumbling goons trope usually only works for a bit since it gets pretty old for an entire series and definitely not when it comes to establishing one side as a threat if it's the mainstay of the enemy (which is why usually commando droids and other droid army variants get highlighted more towards the end of the Clone Wars series).

Good thing the Republic loses a good chunk of its battles and takes loads of casualties while villains like Dooku, Savage, Pre Vizsla, and Maul exist to counter the funny goons. And yeah obviously the writers realised that the formula for the early seasons was starting to wear thin so they moved Ahsoka from an annoying kid to a competent teen, made some darker arcs like Umbara and the Zygerrian slavers, and added more dangerous Separatist leaders like Kalani and Trench. But despite all that the B1s stayed as comedic support from time to time.

Even Star Wars Rebels realized that when they killed off the two Imperias Aresko and Taskmaster Myles Grint by the Grand Inquisitor, it was a shift into the Empire becoming a more serious threat to the rebels on Lothal,

The execution of Aresko and Grint was a turning point for sure but Stormtroopers kept having silly moments as did multiple other officer characters such as Brom Titus. The Stormtroopers filled the role of B1s for Rebels.

though I guess you must have really hated seeing them die then.

Again, needlessly being rude.

Are you calling me a fool because I do not find the B1 droids funny? I did not find them funny in the movies or the tv shows. Quite the opposite. They are about as funny to me as Jar Jar Binks. And you pity me for that? You find it funny for a B1 droid to scream “we're gonna die!” as the ship it is on plummets into a planet?

Hordes of bumbling mooks are generally a storytelling mistake in my opinion. I do not see them elevating the protagonist, quite the opposite.

That I am supposed to laugh at the death or destruction of someone/something is not a moral I appreciate.

Edit: The portrayal of Stormtrooper as incompetent was what turned me off Rebels so much that I never got past the first couple of episodes. The whole Stormtroopers always miss is nonsense that undermines the narrative and I would point to Andor to illustrate my point.

As for B1s in Phantom Menace, Roger, Roger aside…. I seem to recall a specific “uh-oh” comment by a B1 being very jarring even from the very first time I saw the movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFocmjyF00o

It's not rude to call out the flaws in a persons logic or position.

One droid saying “I don’t want to die” is darkly comic, like Hans Moleman. Many droids saying it is a distraction that makes you wonder why the Republic programmed the slaves not only to be self-aware but to suffer.

That question could be asked for all the droids in the setting. They are very blatantly a slave class with no rights despite being obviously self aware with emotions and all. Slapping bolts on them that force obedience against their will is a frequent thing. Having the battle droids Not behave the way they do would be the more outlier thing, as baring a very few exceptions (off hand IG-88’s) being openly emotional is a droid/AI trait to the point I don’t think they Programed them that way, they simply developed that way.

I would argue that the Droids are not sentient.

I always loved the concept of the VI from Mass Effect - Virtual Intelligence. It wasn't a true AI, but it was about as close as one can get. That's how I see Droids in SW.

And the best B1 is R0-GR from The Freemaker Chronicles.

This is a line I have to pick out:

 Gert wrote:
The bumbling goons trope is also a solid choice when it comes to basic funnies.

It can also ruin a show.

I stopped watching Rebels when it first started because I found it to be so kiddified that it was just painful. The worst offenders of that problem are who I called the "Bulk and Skull" of Star Wars, namely officers Aresko and Grint. Bumbling fools who were unrealistically incompetent.

People told me that I should come back and watch Rebels as it got good when Tarkin showed up. I decided to give it a go, and Tarkin eventually showed up, and one of the first things he does is have the Grand Inquisitor execute Aresko and Grint.

The show was on an upward trajectory from that moment onwards.

A lot of it is in the implementation. I'd consider Jar Jar's appearances in Clone Wars well done. I wouldn't say that about Phantom Menace where he's too much in the spotlight and the timing of his gags is off too often.

B1s in Clone Wars are like that. They get the odd funny line once in a while, but it's hardly overbearing. Most of the time they are the quality through quantity cannon fodder a lot of people want to see.

The biggest problem with Jar Jar in TMP was always the fact that he had too many lines. Cut out 2/3rds of his dialogue, and he becomes far more bearable.

Of course, none of that fixes the bigger problem: Anakin is awful in that film.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The biggest problem with Jar Jar in TMP was always the fact that he had too many lines. Cut out 2/3rds of his dialogue, and he becomes far more bearable.

Of course, none of that fixes the bigger problem: Anakin is awful in that film.

And it’s not the actor. He was fine in Jingle All The Way.

Yeah, it wasn't the actor's fault. Even though Hayden and Natalie aren't great actors, they're pretty average, you can't do much if you're being given crap lines from George Lucas. A man with no talent in terms of dialogue, but too much success to have anyone tell him what to do.

Anakin was awful in the entire PT, it's unfair to single out phantom menace IMO.

 AduroT wrote:
That question could be asked for all the droids in the setting. They are very blatantly a slave class with no rights despite being obviously self aware with emotions and all. Slapping bolts on them that force obedience against their will is a frequent thing. Having the battle droids Not behave the way they do would be the more outlier thing, as baring a very few exceptions (off hand IG-88’s) being openly emotional is a droid/AI trait to the point I don’t think they Programed them that way, they simply developed that way.

Most of the time, it isn’t really rubbed in the audience’s face. The B1 droids are one exception, where seeing them clueless and stupid made it easier to watch them die in droves, but the more they let you know they are aware of their fate, their entire purpose as disposable cannon fodder, it makes them tragic, and the battles are every bit as jarring as Fin cheering as he mows down rows of fellow brainwashed-orphan-stormtroopers.

I think ROTJ was the first movie that went too far with it, with the droid torture scene played entirely for laughs just as the movie reminds you that R2 and Threepio aren’t Luke’s friends but his property. The worst example is how Solo treated L337, which is an essay in itself.

Seeing droids as both people we sympathize with and also property that is funny to smash…is uncomfortable.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I get why they're stunning Clones, but I felt it was amusing how I just said I want them to avoid stunning everyone and then for two episodes straight they kept stunning people.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What’s odd, is as soon as it’s a crewed vehicle? Kill ‘em all!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
...maybe crushed one or two with rock fall.

*ahem*

"... or indirectly causing them to fall to their deaths..."

If they disable a ship, and the ship crashes, it's the crash that killed them, not the main characters.
If rocks fall, and everyone dies, it's the rock that killed them.

I dunno. The commander does walk through the trench after they've burst out with the magical tank cannon, and is stopping to check the bodies of his troops. Given how indiscriminate Wrecker is with the cannon, it seems reasonably clear (if not explicit) that they're dead.
I just took it that as things escalated, they couldn't just keep stunning enemies. The gunship was very deliberately shown as the Batch killing enemies. It isn't that off-camera that the show-runners can weasel around it.

All told, I think they handled it fairly well.

Now, on the other hand, the stakes, sense of danger and the 'we need this, but don't need it but need it but fine' waffle was pretty bad. They've done a real headjob on this kid, and the focus on loot, missions and pure bafflement at the idea of happiness bodes poorly.
The disagreements (on purpose and methods) between the clones has the potential to be really interesting, but I'm afraid they'll forget about setting that up as the season goes along.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
That question could be asked for all the droids in the setting. They are very blatantly a slave class with no rights despite being obviously self aware with emotions and all. Slapping bolts on them that force obedience against their will is a frequent thing. Having the battle droids Not behave the way they do would be the more outlier thing, as baring a very few exceptions (off hand IG-88’s) being openly emotional is a droid/AI trait to the point I don’t think they Programed them that way, they simply developed that way.

Most of the time, it isn’t really rubbed in the audience’s face. The B1 droids are one exception, where seeing them clueless and stupid made it easier to watch them die in droves, but the more they let you know they are aware of their fate, their entire purpose as disposable cannon fodder, it makes them tragic, and the battles are every bit as jarring as Fin cheering as he mows down rows of fellow brainwashed-orphan-stormtroopers.

I think ROTJ was the first movie that went too far with it, with the droid torture scene played entirely for laughs just as the movie reminds you that R2 and Threepio aren’t Luke’s friends but his property. The worst example is how Solo treated L337, which is an essay in itself.

Seeing droids as both people we sympathize with and also property that is funny to smash…is uncomfortable.

Other than disagreeing on your point about “seeing them as clueless and stupid made it easier to watch them die in droves” I completely agree with the rest of your post. It really seems like so many writers/directors/showrunners just do not think deeply enough about the narrative they are conveying.

You know the more I think about your point of Luke treating R2 and Threepio as his property rather than his friends the more sad it makes me feel.

A more positive outlook is that the harebrained "plan" to rescue Han has pretty much no chance of succeeding unless you generously handwave it with a measure of Force vision guiding Luke's decision making to the point where he is confident that things will work out just fine.

In which case handing off R2 and 3PO as gifts is just a plausible cover story in a setting in which fleshy and machine slavery are commonplace, and everyone's still friends.

Alternatively, it's not just droids when you think about it. Chewie also gets the short end of the undercover stick. If you go down that road, the whole operation is bogus because the non-humans are sent in as slaves and captives while the humans go in as guard and bounty hunter respectively. You can read a lot into that if you want to.

Interesting episode this week.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Interesting episode this week.

Spoiler:

Main Boys nowhere to be seen, instead showing us Commander Cody and Crosshair putting down a Separatist Holdout.

One for a second watch though, as I was doing worky bits at the same time.

Of interest is how it’ll dovetail into Rebels, when they get in touch with Rex, Gregor and…Wolffe (no, you had to Google that last name), as they at least appear to have been allowed to simply retire.

Also random Clone Turned Bum in Kenobi.

That’s at least suggestive there wasn’t a complete purge of their ranks.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Of interest is how it’ll dovetail into Rebels, when they get in touch with Rex, Gregor and…Wolffe (no, you had to Google that last name), as they at least appear to have been allowed to simply retire.

Also random Clone Turned Bum in Kenobi.

That’s at least suggestive there wasn’t a complete purge of their ranks.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. With the way the Jedi were handled, it doesn't seem like anything resembling massed desertion should lead to anyone being allowed to retire. I hope they're suitably subtle about it.

More thoughts on Battle Droids (well, B-1 model) being cack.

The Separatists, other than Dookie and Palpatations weren’t expecting any particular resistance, certainly nothing like a standing army of the Republic. And so quantity over quality was needed to suggest They Simply Be Left Alone.

Though something that’s never quite filtered through my skull is why The Republic felt the need to go to war? I mean, The Separatists are just assumed to be existential threat.

If this is covered in novels, let me know!

The Republic (read as various Senators and Representatives) didn't like the idea of losing power. The majority of systems that broke away to form the CIS did so peacefully because they believed (rightfully) the Republic to be corrupt.
The CIS just so happened to include a lot of systems and corporations that also had a lot of military hardware. A lot of Outer Rim planets also wanted better representation and a greater sharing of resources than what was in place. Then there was the issue with Count Dooku being the leader of the CIS thereby getting the Jedi involved and all the stuff with Syfo Dias.
It was a very big mess that was all planned out by the Big P to ensure he got his war where he could take power.

Why were the Separatists blockading Naboo?

I'll try and find the video that explains it but it's basically a lot to do with corruption in the senate and Palpatine doing shady deals as Darth Sidious.

That was a lot…

Indeed. It's the point of the whole plan that everything was so convoluted and mixed up that nobody could reasonably stop the coming disaster. Of course, Sifo Dyas had a vision about it, made preparations in the form of the Clone Army (albeit not in the form we know), and was then assassinated by Tyrannus (Dooku) to cover it all up while also gaining control of the second side in the upcoming war.

Kevin Kiner needs to start scoring live action SW projects. He is so good at what he does.

That was a great episode, but no one should be at all surprised that yet another 'hero' character changed sides.

Kind of the point though isn't it? You spend how long fighting to uphold the ideals of peace and democracy only for those ideals to be twisted and find the concepts of mercy and cooperation are utterly gone under the Empire.
And as he says, they aren't droids, they have a choice. Crosshairs chose to stay with the Empire, even if it was motivated by anger at the rest of the Batch. Clones are starting to look at the Empire they helped build and realise "Are we the baddies?".

 AduroT wrote:
Why were the Separatists blockading Naboo?

Just to be clear, the Separatists did not blockade Naboo; the Trade Federation did. Essentially, they wanted to extort the planet and make them agree to let them pillage the place. Obviously not a legal plan, but they had assurances the corruption in the Republic would ensure they wouldn't face any consequences. After consequences were faced due to the new guy in charge with a vested interest in protecting Naboo, (and clearly not also the guy who assured them no action would be taken) the Trade Federation supplied weaponry to the CIS which made their Droid troopers the bulk baddies of both conficts.