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[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/12 13:25:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Well, we’re three episodes in to a run of eight in total.

So there’s plenty more to come, and plenty more to be filled in on this particular…..point of view

For instance
Spoiler:
I’m genuinely sceptical that Mae burning Osha’s book lead to the consequences we see. Especially given we see a bunch of dead bodies in an area pretty much untouched by the fire, which had at least one comfortable way out.

Something else is going on here. Something currently undisclosed.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/12 14:20:57


Post by: LunarSol


On the twins:

Spoiler:

This was actually the answer to the Rey Palpatine thing in one of the better versions of JJs Episode 9 script. I think it works a little better knowing that Palpatine's opera scene was originally significantly more explicit in revealing that he created Anakin.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/12 20:39:44


Post by: LordofHats


I think to be fair, the complete failure of meaningful philosophy in Star Wars, despite constantly alluding to philosophical ideas, is an old problem.

Star Wars is too afraid to break the good/evil stark lines dynamic most of the time to actually delve into anything complex but coherent and every attempt to try has always come off as half-assed. Acolyte is far from the first. The Ghost of Mortis trilogy also had this problem, where the Son and the Daughter were both supposed to be 'extremes' that needed to be balanced, except the daughter was fairly harmless/helpful while the Son was psycho and the Father for all his talk about balance was just a gakky dad who didn't raise his kids right.

But I otherwise agree that the writing, after improving in 2, takes a steep nosedive in 3. This is basically Star Wars: Lost with all the same strengths and weaknesses of Lost, but with none of the novelty of Lost. I still want to know what's going on, but I expect it'll be only half-satisfying at best because the quality of the writing is just poor. So many lines are nakedly contradictory/badly laid out it's a mess trying to sus any deeper meaning from any clues.

The end result is that it's not fun to engage the mystery and we're just waiting for the writers to give us an explanation they spend the whole show bending over backwards trying to hide (so well, even they might have lost it).

EDIT:

Gitzbitah wrote:
Spoiler:
Child of the Force part 2- this is getting out of hand. Now there are 2 of them! That was one of the weakest elements of the prequel trilogy.


Some bad ideas never die. In fact, if you look at extra materials for Episode 9, they get badder.

Spoiler:
I will say I absolutely adore the horrible, horrible pun of the twin that fixes things and loves order is named OSHA. In the USA, that's the organization that enforces workplace safety.


Even funnier is what her job is at the start of the series; violating work safety laws. I feel like that has to be on purpose and I'll concede it's silly enough that I can laugh at it.

Spoiler:
I feel like the episode would have really benefitted from some sort of exposition on the Jedi's part. With, as stated, thousands of children at the temple, and the Jedi don't take children- why have they put so many Jedi and resources into finding and testing these two?


They can't do that.

See, if they bothered to actually lay down a clear trail of clues, or actually explain anything, they'd never be able to justify an eight episode series. /sarcasm

Also, those kind of plot holes are the entire point. If Lost wasn't full of plot holes, then lost wouldn't have any impossible void abysses of unanswerable questions to dangle answers over, teasing you to follow the carrot at the end of the stick with the empty and knowingly false promise that answers await you at the bottom of the hole. But the carrot is a lie. The plot holes are the plot and answering them is tantamount to not having a plot at all. /sarcasm still

But seriously. I'm still on board too, but two episodes in is indeed very much not very far to toss a whole filler/flashback episode at us, especially when they make an entire flashback episode but it answers nothing while teasing a series of questions that seem designed to have no answer.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/12 21:45:31


Post by: Slipspace


Not sure I like the way a flashback episode slows the pace right down at this point in the series. It also feels kind of clumsily done overall, in terms of dialogue, plot and dumping everything on us all at once. This feels like it could have been dropped into other episodes as one-act sections rather than fed to us all at once.

Spoiler:
The Coven's teachings are just dumb, as mentioned earlier. The whole "the Force isn't a weapon" thing, immediately followed by pretty much every single use of it then being weaponised. I'm curious what the point of having the two witches also get pushed back by Mama was? What exactly were they trying to demonstrate? It seemed like they were pointing out that 2 are more powerful together, but then the opposite was shown. Confusing. Also, why didn't they complete the ritual with Osha? It seems like they could have taken the few seconds to witchify her, especially given how vital the introduction of new blood seemed to be for them.

I'm assuming there's more to the fire and the fact everyone in the fortress dies in the end than we've been shown, otherwise everything feels pretty dumb and rather convenient. I also assume we're going to get no explanation about how Mae survived.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/12 21:58:20


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Honestly feels too early to talk about pacing and that. We’ve five episodes to go, and so the majority of the plot yet to unfurl.

The comments about conflicting statements and actions are accurate - but I’m currently seeing that as entirely deliberate, playing on “certain point of view” and “only a Sith deals in absolutes”. Persons and cultures either unable or unwilling to see the hypocrisy between what they do and what they preach.

Which ties back to our mystery red lightsaber wielder so far only glimpsed at the end of chapter one.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/12 22:04:47


Post by: LordofHats


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Honestly feels too early to talk about pacing and that.


I think Olympic runners will be very glad to know this. Will really reduce their stress levels. I mean, it's a whole 1000 meter! The pacing of the first 100 doesn't matter at all

Pacing always matters, and Star Wars tv shows in particular seem to suffer from a persistent pacing problem that comes from many of the series being movie plots that have been dragged out way past their plot's real mileage.

The comments about conflicting statements and actions are accurate - but I’m currently seeing that as entirely deliberate, playing on “certain point of view” and “only a Sith deals in absolutes”. Persons and cultures either unable or unwilling to see the hypocrisy between what they do and what they preach.


Part of me wonders if it's a deliberate ploy of messing with POV, where the memories of the two sisters are blending and that the contradictions are conflicts in how each of them remembers what happens.

But that honestly feels too smart for how bad the rest of the writing is.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/12 22:14:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Running and writing aren’t the same thing you silly goose

So far we’ve been introduced to the setting, and been shown a pretty different Jedi Order to the one we’re more familiar with.

And we know at least four of them were Silly Sods, and at best grossly mishandled a situation.

We then see some of that situation. But in a way which - so far - doesn’t make much sense.

This is the opening act in what I have to presume for now is your classic three act drama.

You say it’s bad writing. And whilst I won’t write that off entirely? I think we’re yet to see enough of the shape of the whole of the thing to know that for sure. Precisely because

Spoiler:
this flashback episode has left us with serious questions. How did we go from Mae setting light to a book, to “oh nadgers, that’s a really big fire”, and then “wait, how come they’re dead without being all burned to death?”

There’s more going on here. I’ll all but guarantee it.


And whilst I can’t rule out “yes, more bad writing and some stuff will just never be referenced, mentioned or acknowledged ever again”? We need to see the rest of the show to be able to have comfortable, informed opinions. Becuase it could very well turn out to be excellently paced, cohesive and well written.

Being a natural optimist I’m inclined more toward the “ideal outcome” of the latter than the former.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/12 22:29:08


Post by: LordofHats


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Running and writing aren’t the same thing you silly goose


And they're also different from NASCAR racing, but pacing is pacing and pacing matters from start to finish.

That doesn't mean the show can't improve*, but bad pacing is bad pacing whether it happens at the start of a story or the end. Or the middle. Or in between the big parts. Or between every possible fight between side characters. Or at the end because the series is ending so we just deux ex the whole thing to wrap it up.

*Or get worse. Jesus Bleach. I still have traumatic flashbacks to how horrible your pacing got and the anime adaptation of 1000BW just reminds me how agonizingly slow the plot became, and then Kubo had to Deux Ex the ending because he ran out of time XD


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/12 22:39:04


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Sorry dude but I have to disagree.

We don’t know what’s to come*. So criticism of pacing, for now**, seems premature to me.

*as in, the majority of the show’s run time and story is yet to air at the time of typing

**you may be right in the end, and in due course I’ll be happy to confirm that


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/12 22:59:28


Post by: LordofHats


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We don’t know what’s to come*.


What's to come has zero effect on pacing.

It's the narrative equivalent of rhythm.

Bad rhythm is just bad rhythm. It doesn't matter than there's 2 and a half minutes left in song. If the rhythm is bad in the first 30 seconds, it's still bad two and a half minutes later. 30 seconds of bad rhythm will always be 30 seconds of bad rhythm.

Acolyte based example; Episode 1 spends its entire run time explaining how the characters figure out something the audience learns in the first five minutes of the show. Episode 1 has gak pacing. We spend the entire runtime waiting for the characters to catch up to us, and the big reveal is something we already know. Episode 2 being better doesn't really change that and no amount of improvement will ever change that episode 1's pacing is bad.

3 also has this problem imo, as basically everything episode 3 spends an entire episode telling us could have been relayed in a five minute monologue by Sol. But episode 3 basically spends the whole episode on what is ultimately a paragraphs worth of new information. Episode 3 has bad pacing.

Episode 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 can't fix that. Episode 3 has already happened and it's pacing was bad.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/13 02:29:12


Post by: insaniak


 LordofHats wrote:
...basically everything episode 3 spends an entire episode telling us could have been relayed in a five minute monologue by Sol.

I mean, you could also narrate the salient points of Empire Strikes Back in a five minute monologue, but then you wouldn't have an actual movie to watch.

Sounds like you might prefer skipping the show and just reading the plot synopsis on Wikipedia.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/13 07:56:34


Post by: Slipspace


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sorry dude but I have to disagree.

We don’t know what’s to come*. So criticism of pacing, for now**, seems premature to me.

But pacing is, by definition, a here-and-now problem. An episode may turn out to be important later in the show, but that doesn't mean it gets a free pass for slow pacing when it airs. I strongly suspect this episode will be pivotal in the arc of the season, what with all the various unanswered questions posed in it. The skill of good writing is fitting the requirements of the plot around the need to keep the audience engaged. This episode didn't quite hit the mark for me on the latter point because of both its internal pacing and the way it killed the momentum we'd only just started to build up in episode 2 after the first episode was a bit flat. That's why I suggested splitting up the episode's plot over multiple episodes. That might also have encouraged a bit of pruning of the details.

Annoyingly, these pacing issues are much less of a problem (within reason) on a streaming platform if the whole season is released at once, because you can afford to take a bit of time out given that the next episode is just a click away. By releasing the episodes in a more traditional schedule you run the risk of people tuning out as excitement drops away rather than ramping up.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/13 08:13:49


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Yet the episode itself is paced fine? And it’s clear we’ve not seen the whole tale for a reason - and right now, I’m willing to bet that’s for good reason.

It’s playing with the tropes of the setting. Certain Points Of View, Myopic Dedication To One’s Creed Without Introspection. Being Convinced Only Your Way Is The Right Way. Hypocrisy and Complacency.

On your point about streaming and bingeing? I do kind of agree. Because it’s something we as the audience were spoiled with quite early on when Streaming began to put out top notch original content.

For me? It was Daredevil. To be able to sit around in me pants, beer and snacks and pizza on hand and just indulge was quite the treat. And soon that was the norm.

Some shows benefitted, others didn’t. And not just Made For Streaming. I find for instance Supernatural works well on a binge, as the seasonal and inter seasonal arcs do the trick. Other, typically older stuff not so much. For instance Andromeda, where the formulaic nature of the writing becomes really makes its presence known when you’re watching five or six on the trot.

For some shows it depends on the season. American Horror Story for instance.

And so, when it comes to modern, made for streaming, episodic content? We the audience kind of want it now.

But the Acolyte is still not even half way through, and it’s setting out an unseen time period in an otherwise familiar setting. It’s also, as ever, made for as wide an audience as possible, not just us nerds who know our Star Wars. So I stand by my comment and opinion any conclusion about its pacing is premature.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/13 09:03:31


Post by: Geifer


What disagrees with me is that the show doesn't actually take the time to make a point, work with it and let it sink in before it changes direction again. Episode 1 had way to much instant turns on really obvious points, so it's neither satisfy to watch unfold nor get an answer to a question you might have asked if you had more than two seconds to think about it before the next change comes around. Episode 3 has enough parts like that again to bother me.

I don't know if there is a good underlying idea to this story, but if there is, it doesn't feel like it's afforded the time to develop and let the audience engage with it.

On the episode itself:

Spoiler:
Yay, weird cultists get a visit from other, more familiar weird cultists! Weird cultiness ensues!

Okay, not much yayness actually. Same problem here. We get a new group of Force users who get explored a little, but in a pretty mangled way, and when the Jedi arrive to provide a familiar frame of reference, exposition dies in favor of making the family drama happen. That's not very satisfying.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Spoiler:
this flashback episode has left us with serious questions. How did we go from Mae setting light to a book, to “oh nadgers, that’s a really big fire”, and then “wait, how come they’re dead without being all burned to death?”

There’s more going on here. I’ll all but guarantee it.


Spoiler:
Where's the mystery? Fire causes fear. Fear causes a morale check. The weird cultists failed their moral check spectacularly and were removed as casualties. Totally normal proceedings.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/13 09:20:33


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Simply put?

Spoiler:
The scene jump doesn’t add up. Mae sets light to book.

Then the entire place is on fire.

Then the sisterhood are all seen dead - in an area the fire isn’t in, and not all burned to death, or covered in smoke/soot which might suggest asphyxiation. In an area where our heroes are able to pass through at a brisk pace without bother.

Now, this could just be bad film making. Sure. I’m not going to rule that out. But I’m still standing by my opinion it doesn’t make sense for a narrative reason. That reason being there’s more going on here than we’ve been shown.

Add in we’re told the Sisterhood Cult Thing were in seclusion for a reason. They’d fled something, or someone, for reasons not currently explained.

And I reckon that whatever that is caught up with them off-screen, and that is why events unfolded as we saw. But it’s also possible the Jedi did slaughter the Sisterhood Cult Thing.

But whatever is going on? I’ll bet my bottom dollar it’s far more than we’ve been shown so far.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/13 10:00:31


Post by: Geifer


I don't think this mystery is even in need of defending, Doc.

Spoiler:
We've seen the show's flavor of writing issues already. Everyone in the coven dropping of collective cardiac arrest isn't bad writing. At least I'd be seriously surprised if it ended up that way. It's a part that is at the heart of the twins' motivation, after all.

It's a better whodunit than the fake chase for Trinity's murderer, too.

Was it Mae? Bit much for a kid whose adult and hopefully more accomplished self didn't fare too well against Trinity. But she has power now, and as we all know rage plus dark side equals uh oh.
Did the Jedi do it? The show's theme is about them being dodgier than people commonly believe, after all.
Was there a sudden schism in the coven and everyone went postal? There's a lot of outspoken disagreement between biological mother and spiritual mother.
Did the darksider with the manifesto do it? Possibly setting the whole thing up from the shadows where no one can hear his fits of evil laughter? Wouldn't be the first time to groom an apprentice by ruining their life in the first place.

At least here you have a setup and a question that isn't a foregone conclusion, as long as you don't identify what's shown as a fake lead (the first three options) and what isn't shown as the correct answer (the remaining one). That would be very Dragon's Lair of the writers.

That's pretty much what bothers me. This is how it's done. At least nominally. This is a mystery setup that is worth following and getting an answer to. It's a massive improvement over the fake mystery episode one wasted time on.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/13 10:48:30


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


We’re clearly being given limited perspectives, to show us how Mae and Osha got to where they currently are respectively.

From there, I really expect a lot of “certain point of view” and morality skewed by extremism (the Jedi, whilst largely beneficial are extremists).

Had the mystery all along been “who am killed the Jedi’s???” I think we’d be in for a much duller show.

I remain enthused, mostly because we really don’t have any guarantees that a given character is still gonna be alive at the end of story. Mae, Osha, the Jedi? We’ve no way to assign plot armour for certain at this stage.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/13 14:30:22


Post by: LunarSol


 LordofHats wrote:

Part of me wonders if it's a deliberate ploy of messing with POV, where the memories of the two sisters are blending and that the contradictions are conflicts in how each of them remembers what happens.

But that honestly feels too smart for how bad the rest of the writing is.


This is largely where I'm at. In the first episode I excused some of the weirdness as setup, but then the setup was answered very suddenly without a very satisfying payoff. My inclination to give it the benefit of the doubt has largely not worked out. There's some very basic storytelling done very wrong here.

That said, I'm still quite enjoying it. Something about the vibe and setting really works for me, even when the story does not. It very much captures an older version of the SWU in a way that even KotOR really didn't for me. Even things that I've often felt were kind of jarring in the setting like the Night Sisters feel well integrated here. Digging the vibes, want to see more, but there's very much something off about it.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/13 20:48:22


Post by: LordofHats


Suppose we'll see.

Just because the pacing is bad doesn't mean the plot can't come together well by the end.

And in the compliments sandwich mood, I do like that the series explores other force users. Even if it's possibly flawed/weak, getting outside of the Jedi/Sith binary is a good thing.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/14 13:44:53


Post by: AduroT


I mean it’s very obvious that
Spoiler:
the Jedi killed everyone. Like the one dude in the future put himself in that meditative state and only came out to kill himself when reminded of the last saying he thought they were doing the right thing. They very definitely did it.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/14 14:10:52


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Too obvious for me.

Spoiler:
The guilt felt by the Jedi may be more about not doing enough to prevent something, rather than doing something


But hey, hallmark of a decent mystery is multiple suspects. I just hope they don’t Marple us and solve it by revealing information not previously prevented to the audience.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/14 20:46:27


Post by: Lord Damocles


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Too obvious for me

This is the same show which had the 'secret twin with matching hair!' reveal in the first episode...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/14 23:23:36


Post by: insaniak


 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Too obvious for me

This is the same show which had the 'secret twin with matching hair!' reveal in the first episode...

...again, because the fact there were twins in the show was never a secret. It would have been beyond pointless to try to keep that as a big mystery reveal.

For my money, the only thing they did wrong there was that the show should have opened with episode 3.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/14 23:35:49


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I still consider that a sign of a decently written mystery. You throw out some Really Obvious And Unsurprising Thing.

This gives the reader/viewer/investigator a certain false confidence in their observation skills. And from there, you slowly complicate things.

And that’s what we’re seeing with The Acolyte. We’ve also been treated to “mysterious” backstory - shown from an incomplete point of view.

Again, I remain open to it being a big old bag of nothing by the time the tale is told. But for now, I’m enthused and enjoying it.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/14 23:55:01


Post by: Gitzbitah


 insaniak wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Too obvious for me

This is the same show which had the 'secret twin with matching hair!' reveal in the first episode...

...again, because the fact there were twins in the show was never a secret. It would have been beyond pointless to try to keep that as a big mystery reveal.

For my money, the only thing they did wrong there was that the show should have opened with episode 3.


You are on to something! Opening with 3 would have really established the story and setup, and then we'd have a timejump to Osha on a freighter and one of the Jedi going down. Plus there'd be a lot more narrative continuity going into episode 4, presuming that it returns to present day. Excellent idea.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/15 04:22:42


Post by: AduroT


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Too obvious for me.

Spoiler:
The guilt felt by the Jedi may be more about not doing enough to prevent something, rather than doing something


But hey, hallmark of a decent mystery is multiple suspects. I just hope they don’t Marple us and solve it by revealing information not previously prevented to the audience.



The writing so far just doesn’t strike me as being smart enough for that so far.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/16 06:53:29


Post by: Jadenim


Ok, so I’ve just caught up and I have a few thoughts on various things you have been discussing:

Spoiler:
I’m definitely in the “something else must have gone on” camp with regards to the fire, because a) it doesn’t make sense that lighting a book on fire causes that much devastation, that quickly and b) Padawan dude ends up spending 6-years meditating on it and then committing suicide for absolution, which seems like a hell of an over reaction to an accidental fire, even given the results. Also, during the ascension ceremony there was definitely a brief shot of the presumed Sith lurking in the background.

From one of Carrie-Anne Moss’ lines, I think it’s implied that the Jedi aren’t there for routine testing of children, but that they don’t want the coven to be able to expand.


Overall I’m not sure what I think of this; it has some new, intriguing ideas for a Star Wars show, but it’s also very janky. The script is very poor in places, there are definitely some plot holes / stupid things that happen because the plot requires them to, and they’re very inconsistent with Jedi powers. They can look into someone’s mind at a whim, unless that would be inconvenient for onscreen tension. They don’t think to use the force to locate someone after they Batman-d their way out of a corner with a cloud of dust, etc. However, some of this could be explained if there is more going on than we’ve seen so far. I don’t think it’s going to become clear until we get to the end of the run.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/16 09:50:17


Post by: Nevelon


RE: fire...



Spoiler:

She was also playing with an oil lamp. If that’s what they use in the place for light, it might help explain how things got out of hand. Still no excuse for spreading and killing everyone.

Smoke inhalation might leave a pile of unburnt bodies, but there has got to be more going on.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/16 10:01:39


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


My guess?

Spoiler:
The Jedi were on the planet for a reason. And that reason wasn’t the Sisterhood Cult thing.

Rather, I think they were hunting down a Sith. They saw Osha, and followed up, possibly believing her to be a Sith apprentice.

Having walked into the encampment/citadel thing? They needed some pretence for being there, and testing the girls was part of that.

I’ll need to rewatch to see if Jadenim did clock someone lurking during the ceremony, but for now I’ll take that at face value.

Clearly, something had then kicked off.

Did the Sith slaughter the Sisterhood? Or was it perhaps the Jedi, believing they’d been betrayed and lured into a trap? Could it be collateral damage alone?

But whatever happened, it seems to have happened quickly. Or at least, that’s how it’s presented. Again rewatch needed, but the scene jumping from “ha! That’ll teach you Osha” to “Oh no! Even the fire is on fire!” doesn’t show a particular timeline. They could even be on separate days.


E3 rewatch notes.

Spoiler:
Coven isn’t hiding in their own Super Secret Fortress. Rather, they’re in amongst a civilian population.

Also, Osha’s favourite tree is said to be highly poisonous when eaten.

After Mae and Osha’s training session, we may have our first hint of an infiltrator/saboteur. Mother Koril has a look, but we’re shown nothing conclusive.

This is after we’ve seen the Jedi observe the twin in the woods, but before they’ve revealed themselves to the Coven.

Coven reveal they were exiled, and hunted. But no mention of who. Implication of course is Jedi (some considered us unnatural etc), but not gonna take that at face value, given things seemed cordial, if a little strained. Especially when the Jedi request rather than demand the girls submit for testing, out right offering to Osha. And seek permission to test. Though are more demanding when it comes to Mae.

There is a cowled figure at the ceremony…who isn’t doing anything. Stock still, not partaking, just observing. That’s…curious. They go ignored by the coven entirely. But they could still be part of it for all we know. Watching carefully, they’re still present when it’s revealed the Jedi have arrived - but as soon as the Coven are filing out from the ritual area? Gone. The robes worn are also very different to the Coven’s.

Newbacca is mending a speeder bike. I’m wondering what cause the damage, and when. Spesh given the Jedi claim not to have known the planet was inhabited - this is feeding my theory they were chasing someone else.

The Coven, whilst not exactly chuffed at Osha wanting to join the Jedi Order aren’t shown to try to stop her. This ties back to my observation that whomever the Coven fled and were hiding from? It probably wasn’t the Jedi, otherwise Mama wouldn’t have countenanced such a thing.

Fire! Fire! I was wrong on the timing. Mae sets light to book, Osha shouts her Mum. Then in the same scene? The fire is on fire and within maybe a minute or two? They’re dead Dave. They’re all dead. And the power plant/reactor is also going boom bang a bang.

Jedi turns up, we’re not sure why.

We’re shown the whole settlement ablaze. Jedi tells Osha it was all Mae’s fault. Not sure I’m buying that, which raises the question of why they told that lie.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/16 22:14:49


Post by: nels1031


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

E3 rewatch notes.

Spoiler:
Coven isn’t hiding in their own Super Secret Fortress. Rather, they’re in amongst a civilian population.


Not sure I agree with that.

Spoiler:
The “civilian population” is all female and shows deference to the twins and the coven leader. No other kids + all female = that “civilian population” is actually the coven just going about daily lives/chores.

Also not sure that I agree that the dark robed folks are anything special. Robed folks look to be guards. They have less ornamented robes then the witches. There are multiples. The twins walk by at least two on each flank as they march up to the coven leader. Not buying that they are some sort of Sith guests. The two at the top of the ceremony disappearing when the jedi are told to be coming could be a staging mistake or they moved forward off camera where we see the other guards aiming their bows at the door and another guard giving a weapon to spikyhead birth momma.

The dead coven members have debris scattered amongst them, which to me means they died from the debris. Doesn’t really look like a combat scene. Looks cheap either way.

At the same time, while its out of focus while Sol talks to a recovering Osha, Torbin in the background clearly has the facial wounds that he will have as scars when we saw him years later in episode 2. Which implies combat of some kind.

I’m on board that something clearly happened besides a fire going rapidly out of control, I do think 100% it will be dumb as feth.

We’ll probably get an episode from Mae’s perspective on what she was doing after torching the book, otherwise, how did Sol know she started a fire?



Sidenote: 15% Rotten Tomatoes audience score for this show is hilarious, while 3 million fewer people watched the premiere of this show than for the premiere of Ahsoka.

Nothing in this show looks to be worth the 180 million dollar budget. Thats near $22 million per episode.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 06:25:39


Post by: Jadenim


Spoiler:
We’re not talking about the witches robes; during the ceremony all of the witches are gathered in a group in front of the leader. During her speech (I think it was when she mentioned something about the miracle of new life), she glances to her side and off in the distance over her shoulder there is a dark, hooded, figure watching the ceremony. They do not appear to be a witch.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 10:56:09


Post by: Geifer


 nels1031 wrote:
Sidenote: 15% Rotten Tomatoes audience score for this show is hilarious, while 3 million fewer people watched the premiere of this show than for the premiere of Ahsoka.


I'm not surprised about the latter part. Ahsoka (the character) is bound to be a big draw and the show is Rebels season 5. I should think it comes with a larger prospective audience just for that, compared to Jedi in their yellow period.

For the former, feels a bit premature to rate the show before it's done. Or is it an average of episode ratings so far? Still a bit early in my opinion, even if the writing/composition issues are hard to miss and won't likely get much better in retrospect.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 11:01:19


Post by: Slipspace


15% seems absurdly low. I have some issues with the writing so far and I'm not 100% convinced they'll all be resolved by the end of the season. That said, this is clearly not on the level of "worst show ever", which is what a 15% rating would indicate.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 11:43:27


Post by: Jadenim


I’ve heard that there’s been an awful lot of review bombing going on from the “anti-woke” crowd and SW “fans” who are still bent out of shape about the sequel trilogy.

I just don’t get it, but that seems to be the way of the world at the moment.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 11:44:08


Post by: insaniak


The show's certainly not perfect, but the Book of Boba Fett has a 51% audience score. 15% for this one says there's targeted shenanigans going on.

The fact that it got within 3 million views of Ahsoka says people are watching it... As Geifer said, Ahsoka was a much bigger draw, with an established audience, than a new show with unknown characters.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 12:00:02


Post by: nels1031


I’ll admit to thinking all 3 episodes have been varying levels of garbage, but 15% this early on is excessive. On the flipside, 84% critic score is also highly suspect. Thats damn near the same score as Breaking Bad season 1.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jadenim wrote:
Spoiler:
We’re not talking about the witches robes; during the ceremony all of the witches are gathered in a group in front of the leader. During her speech (I think it was when she mentioned something about the miracle of new life), she glances to her side and off in the distance over her shoulder there is a dark, hooded, figure watching the ceremony. They do not appear to be a witch.


Watched the episode 2 times(I like mysteries and small details like this) and all I see are the guards, even in that part you mentioned, which wear dark hooded robes different from the purple witch robes.

Its possible that I’m missing it, but I really don’t want to sit through that dumb ass chant one more time.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 12:14:55


Post by: Overread


 Jadenim wrote:
I’ve heard that there’s been an awful lot of review bombing going on from the “anti-woke” crowd and SW “fans” who are still bent out of shape about the sequel trilogy.

I just don’t get it, but that seems to be the way of the world at the moment.


Reviewbombing is very much a thing these days and interested protest groups have found it very effective at causing damage. Because they know a lot of people won't bother positive reviewing and will only fixate on the negative score and nothing else. So review bombs can be very damaging to a firm and powerful. They abuse the fact that a lot of people browse the net on their phone or tablet or at work; so they are in more of a reading than writing mode.

I know steam was looking into tools to try and tackle it and I feel like its going to be a big thing for whoever can find a solution to review bombing. Especially as whilst there are times it helps (eg the Warhammer 3 reviewbombing seemed to actually have a positive result); there are many (more) times where its detrimental to the firm and often the thing being created. Especially as this method can put a lot of power in very niche specialist interest groups - eg the "anti woke/women" type groups; or into "hate" groups.

I can well see a time when firms will want to push really easy ways to positive score things or impede negative reviews just to try and curb things.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 13:04:03


Post by: LunarSol


Star Wars hate has been a viable career path for over half a decade now and people work very hard to keep their jobs. That's not to say that all the hate is from that circle (nor does hating the show put you in that circle) but it tends to be where the organized review bombs come from.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 13:11:38


Post by: Overread


 LunarSol wrote:
Star Wars hate has been a viable career path for over half a decade now and people work very hard to keep their jobs. That's not to say that all the hate is from that circle (nor does hating the show put you in that circle) but it tends to be where the organized review bombs come from.


Heck that reminds me - maybe the end to it all is just to tell Youtube to change the algoritum to bias positive clickbait instead of negative. Considering how it works and how people engage with it I think its well beyond the "bad news sells" theory and well into the "tell them what they want to read" angle.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 13:21:15


Post by: Skinnereal


Something that got me in the recent episode:
Osha says she wants to be a Jedi, and the Jedi just happen to turn up.
But, if the witches were so isolated and remote, how would she know about them anyway? Are the witches commonly discussing other groups, and making them somehow appealing enough for Osha to want to join them in place of staying a part her own community?
And the Jedi saying "Witches training children is bad" and straight to "We'll take this child and train her".


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 14:47:23


Post by: Geifer


I didn't get the impression that without further information Osha should want to be a Jedi. The witches don't seem like the sort that present a balanced view of the competition.

I think cult leader mom mentioned the Jedi during training (you know, the part where Jedi use the Force as a weapon and the coven supposedly does not). I figure that's what the twins would be exposed to. Yeah, there are other Force users out there, but they're all bad people, unlike us. Stuff like that.

At a guess the thinking here might be that Osha is so dissatisfied that she'd just about join anyone else as long as she doesn't have to go through with the ceremony and stay attached to Mae. I wouldn't be particularly surprised either. The fact that Mae is the evil twin doesn't automatically make Osha the good twin. She's more like the contrarian twin, really. That seems like an approach that's in character with her. Even if I got the impression that she knows more about the Jedi than she should.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/17 14:50:10


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


My read is that Osha primarily wanted to see the Galaxy. Remain with the coven and the ascension? And that’s not going to happen because they’re reclusive.

But, the Jedi? The Jedi at least appeared to a child a way to see the galaxy.

Given she left the Jedi Order, we can reasonably infer she was eventually disavowed of that notion, realising she’d swapped one cult’s strict rules for another cult’s strict rules.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 00:39:12


Post by: LordofHats


 insaniak wrote:
The show's certainly not perfect, but the Book of Boba Fett has a 51% audience score. 15% for this one says there's targeted shenanigans going on.

The fact that it got within 3 million views of Ahsoka says people are watching it... As Geifer said, Ahsoka was a much bigger draw, with an established audience, than a new show with unknown characters.


I can firmly say that in a ranking, there's no way the Acolyte (so far) is worse than Book of Boba Fett. The production quality on Boba Fett was maybe a bit better, but Book of Boba Fett was a hot mess of a show with no idea what it was trying to be. The Acolyte whether it comes together or not, clearly has an idea what it wants to be and that's an automatic win over Boba Fett in my book.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 06:03:20


Post by: ZergSmasher


At least Book of Boba didn't seem like poorly written lesbian fan fiction. And it's no accident that this show is being released during Pride Month. They're trying to shove it up the nose of the so-called "anti-woke" crowd, and then act surprised by said crowd's irritation. It's basically flamebait.

Now, the show's "wokeness" isn't what's bothering me about it, but rather that it's absolutely pants-on-head stupid. So much contradiction and illogic. I might continue to watch it, only because it's like watching a train crash or something, where what we're seeing is horrible yet we can't look away...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 09:09:53


Post by: insaniak


 ZergSmasher wrote:
At least Book of Boba didn't seem like poorly written lesbian fan fiction...

Neither does this. Babies created by the Force is not a new concept to Star Wars.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 10:42:39


Post by: Nevelon


 insaniak wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
At least Book of Boba didn't seem like poorly written lesbian fan fiction...

Neither does this. Babies created by the Force is not a new concept to Star Wars.


Which is more likely?

Spontaneous creation of life from a primal force of nature?
or...
Jedi wakes up after a forbidden night of passion and mind-tricks the poor woman “I was never here, nothing happened” and slinks out back to the temple?

OK, in a mostly family friendly high fantasy space opera, the first is more probably likely. But I know what my head cannon says...



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 11:38:30


Post by: Geifer


 Nevelon wrote:
OK, in a mostly family friendly high fantasy space opera, the first is more probably likely. But I know what my head cannon says...


Obi-Wan taught you well.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 12:14:19


Post by: Slipspace


 ZergSmasher wrote:
At least Book of Boba didn't seem like poorly written lesbian fan fiction. And it's no accident that this show is being released during Pride Month. They're trying to shove it up the nose of the so-called "anti-woke" crowd, and then act surprised by said crowd's irritation. It's basically flamebait.

Uh huh. And there's no projection here at all, right? If you think this is some sort of lesbian fan fiction you probably need to broaden your horizons a little bit

I'm fairly sure they're going with the twins being conceived through the Force. That said, it's not that unusual for families to disown a parent and tell their kids and/or others "there is no father". Like I said, probably literal given established SW canon, but could also be a figure of speech. It also seems like a pretty stupid thing to say to a bunch of Jedi that you want to leave you alone. Pretty sure they'd be even more interested in Force sensitive twins if they were also some sort of immaculate conception.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 12:31:23


Post by: insaniak


They never said it to the Jedi, though. Not mentioning it to the Jedi was even very specifically mentioned to be the preferred course of action...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 12:48:34


Post by: Slipspace


 insaniak wrote:
They never said it to the Jedi, though. Not mentioning it to the Jedi was even very specifically mentioned to be the preferred course of action...

Really? My memory must be a bit wonky. Who asked who their father was? I'm trying to remember how that line came about now.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 12:59:21


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The Jedi asked, and were told “there is no father”.

But, the possibly science or magical origin of the girls was only discussed within the Coven.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 13:31:36


Post by: LunarSol


 insaniak wrote:
The show's certainly not perfect, but the Book of Boba Fett has a 51% audience score. 15% for this one says there's targeted shenanigans going on.


Given the sudden dip in the review scores for 2008's Australian horror thriller "Acolytes", I think that's fair to say


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 13:44:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


100% there’s targeted shenanigans.

Risk your sanity by sampling some of the one and half star reviews.

All moaning episode 3 makes no sense. In a way which suggests many haven’t actually watched it, or if they have, they’ve no media awareness whatsoever, considering an ongoing mystery being, y’know, ongoing, to be “poor writing”.

Which being 37.5% of the episodes aired so far, is a bit like pissing and moaning you’re a third of the way through a murder mystery novel, play, game or movie, and they’ve not told you who the killer is yet.

Unless it’s Columbo, which is of course a How and Why Dunnit.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 14:07:37


Post by: Geifer


Columbo is the only murder mystery series that ever interested me. Pretty much because of the absence of the mystery part.

Which is why, even though I'm not saying the Acolyte stinks or anything, the whole mystery part of it has me thoroughly in an are we there yet mood. Get to it already!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 16:48:14


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Jedi asked, and were told “there is no father”.

But, the possibly science or magical origin of the girls was only discussed within the Coven.


Well those dark siders presumably would be rubbish boyfriends and not stick around for the kids, so they generate all the Jedi through their carelessness?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 17:33:34


Post by: Hulksmash


I'm only 1 episode in. I'm watching with my kiddos. That said the first episode, even with it's timing issues, is miles ahead of book of fett. Book of Fett, outside of the grogu/mando diversion, was probably the worst show I've watched in a long long time.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 18:55:29


Post by: Thargrim


I haven't resubbed to Disney or started watching this yet, but I did see the "power of many" clip on youtube and that was about enough to deter me from doing so. I'll probably check back in when Andor s2 is out, at least that show wasn't embarassing to witness.

I do agree though that The book of Boba Fett was pretty awful. The Mandalorian s3 got worse too, top tier immersive sci fi content right there with Jack Black and Lizzo disappearing into their roles seamlessly it was like watching an SNL skit.



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 21:32:01


Post by: LunarSol


Mando 3 is absolutely plagued by its whole team doing it out of obligation. It's saving grace is definitely that Giancarlo is absolutely there to chew some scenery.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 21:43:51


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I don’t get the dislike of Mando S3.

It delves pretty deeply into Mandalorian Culture, and promises a renaissance of sorts, post-Empire.

My main grump is I was swizzed out of a space battle I’d been looking forward to since we saw the Mando fleet, and found out Moff Gideon had a wing or more of TIE Interceptors at his disposal.

But the plot was completely fine.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/18 21:49:56


Post by: LunarSol


The plot IS completely fine. It's just that there's not much enthusiasm from the cast to perform it. Most of the big moments are just kind of awkwardly shuffled through to get things in place for an admittedly very fun finale.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 02:52:00


Post by: nels1031


Episode 4. Probably 24 minutes of actual run time when you cut out opening/closing credits and title sequence. I hate that kind of inconsistency, particularly when it ends on a cliffhanger. The non-main party Jedi in this episode are basically going to be Star Trek redshirts, right? Just show us some lightsaber action to show how much of a threat the guy is and then end it with one of our main characters about to potentially bite it.

Could’ve spent more time on character development, but the dialogue is so meh and cliched that I should be thankful for the brevity.

Spoiler:
I guess Qimir is the smiley Sith? Though he could be a red herring.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 03:16:42


Post by: insaniak


That's a nasty place to finish the episode... A curse on weekly episode drops!

Spoiler:
Qimir still seems like the most likely candidate for Lord Smiley, although that would require him to have freed himself from the rope and got to Kalnacca's house quickly enough to kill the wookie and get out again before Mae got there...

Although someone on twitter the other day did point out that you don't see Koril's body amongst the dead in Episode 3. That would make sense, as she certainly has a valid reason to dislike the jedi at this point, and would also explain how this series avoids the problem of Sith being around, by virtue of the villains not actually being Sith to begin with...



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 05:16:09


Post by: ccs


My main complaint concerning the SW shows is the actual runtime vs the length of the length of the re-cap/opening sequence/credits.
Made so much more noticeable by the lack of adds.
At least I can click though them.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 06:20:20


Post by: nels1031


 insaniak wrote:
That's a nasty place to finish the episode... A curse on weekly episode drops!

Spoiler:
Qimir still seems like the most likely candidate for Lord Smiley, although that would require him to have freed himself from the rope and got to Kalnacca's house quickly enough to kill the wookie and get out again before Mae got there...

Although someone on twitter the other day did point out that you don't see Koril's body amongst the dead in Episode 3. That would make sense, as she certainly has a valid reason to dislike the jedi at this point, and would also explain how this series avoids the problem of Sith being around, by virtue of the villains not actually being Sith to begin with...



Regarding your spoilers :

Spoiler:
Regarding Qimir : This show disregards time and space so blatantly that I wouldn’t put it past them that Qimir could do all of that in that amount of time. The Jedi come all the way from Coruscant and catch up to the two bad guys as an example from this episode, without mentioning all of the other weird timing/pacing the writers have given this shitshow in previous episodes.

If its Koril, why would she hide her identity from her own daughter, and to what purpose. If she survived whatever went down at the “Power of Many Mansion” wouldn’t she have met up with Mae shortly after? Probably the least imaginative route to go, since the voice distorter for a female character has been done by Leia in Return of the Jedi and Enfys Nest in Solo. If it is Koril, I’m ready for the “No, I am your Mother” moment.






[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 06:33:11


Post by: AduroT


Spoiler:
I’m definitely voting Qimir. I could yet be wrong but evrrything feels so blatantly obvious to me so far.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 07:46:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Definitely a shorter episode. But we’ve seen Disney+ shows play with episode length before.

The downside is some episodes feel a bit “is that it?” in the moment. The upside though is it can help avoid filler plot added to make up time for syndication, giving the writer and director whatever time is needed to do a given episode or chapter’s plot.

Contents of this episode are decent.

Spoiler:
I quite like Mae’s “well if my sister is alive, screw the evil dude. He can get in a bin” change of heart.

Because it’s not as if we’ve seen Masters betrayed due to family bonds ever before in Star Wars.

Bit disappointed we didn’t get to see the Wookiee kicking arse. There’s not enough Wookiee arse kicking if you ask me.

Not much else to say right now, as not a lot of the episode to discuss.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 15:34:33


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Filler plots are often how we get to know the characters’ other facets and see more of their world. Sometimes you just need an episode where the mother in law shows up or everyone goes fishing to let the characters shine.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 20:37:47


Post by: Geifer


 AduroT wrote:
Spoiler:
I’m definitely voting Qimir. I could yet be wrong but evrrything feels so blatantly obvious to me so far.


If the zeitgeist teaches us anything it's that I shouldn't say nice things about a Star Wars show, but...

Spoiler:
... for all the flaws of the show, and I may come to see this differently once I've seen the whole thing, it does go to some lengths to make multiple characters out to be Lord Smiley. Regardless of whether that is through in universe breadcrumbs or paranoia about bad writing. Could be alchemist dude who's so obviously more than he appears. Could be whichever cult mom survived and got it into her head that crazy is in order to get revenge. Is the Mirialan Jedi secretly a darksider who has infiltrated the Jedi and puts on a masterful act or is she actually a complete moron like she appears to be? Could well be someone never even introduced so the obvious choices turn out not to be obvious at all.

A show could do worse than that. And it's not like it isn't trying in some regards.


For more general thoughts:

Spoiler:
Are we seeing the adventures of young Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo Koon, or are those different Jedi who just happen to look like they might be Jedi we see almost a hundred years later? Not sure what lifespans to expect from those species, as it stands.

The episode seemed pleasantly straightforward to me. As mentioned, issues of time and its flow persist, but goals are clear and hardly any fuss is made about getting to them.

Of course the episode was going to end on a cliffhanger Wasn't even hard to guess which one. On Mae's side, a lesson is in order and it was foreshadowed kind of obviously. On the Jedi side, yeah, why don't you just bring seven murderhobos to catch a barely trained kid. You could tell they weren't there for Mae. So yeah, obvious cliffhanger is obvious. Still kind of rude to stop halfway through, though.

Hooooly Mothman!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 20:38:20


Post by: Easy E


They should have a beach episode!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 20:48:55


Post by: insaniak



Spoiler:
Are we seeing the adventures of young Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo Koon, or are those different Jedi who just happen to look like they might be Jedi we see almost a hundred years later? Not sure what lifespans to expect from those species, as it stands



Spoiler:
It's definitely Ki Adi Mundi, as he's listed in the credits. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth on social media about them breaking cannon from people still struggling to come to terms with Legends not being the official timeline, as in the EU he wasn't born yet.



Plo Koon lookalike didn't have lines, so wasn't credited, and might just be a different Jedi of the same species.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 20:51:10


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Just in general, whatever else you may feel about the show?

I’m really enjoying not having prior knowledge about…any of this. Even the excellent Clone Wars and Rebels were backfilling story between known points. We knew for certain who would survive until which point in Clone Wars, and Rebels we knew would ultimately end with the Rebellion getting its disparate arses into gear and pulling it off in the end.

But here, as I’ve mentioned before, whilst I’ve no doubt plot armour is in the offing, it’s hard to say who is wearing it. Even though Osha and Mae seem likely candidates, I’m not taking that for granted.

That’s not something I’m at all used to with Star Wars, and it’s kind of thrilling. Because whilst we know whatever is going on doesn’t directly lead to the fall of the Jedi Order, we don’t really know what the end game is going to be.

Also also?

Spoiler:
I don’t buy our interloper as Mae’s master.

Consider what Mae was told at the end of Chapter 1. Make the Jedi draw first. Show that they’re not invincible and can be killed without weapons. End the myth associated with the Jedi.

Yet this goon turns up all stealthy, and it’s straight out with their Lightsaber.

Now, I’m not ruling out hypocrisy here. God knows the Sith and Jedi love a bit of hypocrisy (especially the Jedi!). And yes “who did we destroy, apprentice or master’ would be a repeat of the prequel. But it’s still a fun trope.

No, I’m not entirely ruling out sloppy writing, but that is the last resort, reserved for when we’ve seen the whole of the thing.



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 21:12:17


Post by: insaniak


Has anyone in universe actually referred to 'the Master' as a Sith? I don't think they have.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 21:17:18


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Seemingly not. Which is a fair observation.

Spoiler:
Chapter 4 does have an explicit statement that Mae was trained by “one of us”, and confirmation that meant a Jedi.

Also, that is indeed Ki-Adi Mundi in the meeting room.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 21:20:24


Post by: Gert


The Sith are seemingly extinct but a rouge Jedi can still be a thing.

The Order isn't perfect after all and people don't always end up fitting in.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 21:26:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


There’s also something worry said by Jecki Lon (yes I’m googling the names)

Spoiler:
Its always an honour to see a living being transition into the force.

As in…die. Because that’s said just after Sol swatted the flying pullout thing.

What the flip are the Jedi teaching their Padawans?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 21:28:09


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
Death is part of life. Jedi still only fight in self-defence and try not to kill. So when they do have to kill, they can soften the harsh emotions that might arise by using religious mumbo jumbo.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 21:32:13


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


True, but I can see how such a teaching could easily be twisted.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 21:47:05


Post by: insaniak


 Gert wrote:
The Sith are seemingly extinct but a rouge Jedi can still be a thing.

The Order isn't perfect after all and people don't always end up fitting in.

A rogue Jedi is definitely a possibility, but I also wonder if Episode 3 was partially intended to remind us that not all force users are Jedi or Sith.



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 21:50:14


Post by: Geifer


 insaniak wrote:

Spoiler:
Are we seeing the adventures of young Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo Koon, or are those different Jedi who just happen to look like they might be Jedi we see almost a hundred years later? Not sure what lifespans to expect from those species, as it stands



Spoiler:
It's definitely Ki Adi Mundi, as he's listed in the credits. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth on social media about them breaking cannon from people still struggling to come to terms with Legends not being the official timeline, as in the EU he wasn't born yet.



Plo Koon lookalike didn't have lines, so wasn't credited, and might just be a different Jedi of the same species.


Heh, what do you know. I did wonder who we might see, some time back.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also also?

Spoiler:
I don’t buy our interloper as Mae’s master.

Consider what Mae was told at the end of Chapter 1. Make the Jedi draw first. Show that they’re not invincible and can be killed without weapons. End the myth associated with the Jedi.

Yet this goon turns up all stealthy, and it’s straight out with their Lightsaber.

Now, I’m not ruling out hypocrisy here. God knows the Sith and Jedi love a bit of hypocrisy (especially the Jedi!). And yes “who did we destroy, apprentice or master’ would be a repeat of the prequel. But it’s still a fun trope.

No, I’m not entirely ruling out sloppy writing, but that is the last resort, reserved for when we’ve seen the whole of the thing.



Spoiler:
If it's the master, I don't think it's hypocrisy but strategy. He needs the Jedi to worry so much that they slip up, jump at shadows and and make irreversible mistakes. The end game is to show the Jedi as aggressors. How he and they get there is not likely of concern. It's what people see in the moment that sticks, not how the Jedi may justify their actions in the aftermath.

Dropping half a dozen Jedi to rattle the rest of them might just be the way to accomplish that. Especially if he kills them and the example is made by Mae. To the public there will be less of a connection between those event and be more credible for it.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s also something worry said by Jecki Lon (yes I’m googling the names)

Spoiler:
Its always an honour to see a living being transition into the force.

As in…die. Because that’s said just after Sol swatted the flying pullout thing.

What the flip are the Jedi teaching their Padawans?


That's old news.

"Rejoice for those who become one with the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not."

Yoda basically told Anakin that it's cool to kill younglings. and then he and Obi-Wan act surprised when it happens...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 21:56:36


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


There’s still a difference in not being too down about someone passing, and it being an honour to see something die/


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 22:07:16


Post by: Geifer


Eh, if you propagate an ideal state, there is only the thinnest of lines between actively and passively experiencing it.

Crazy cultists be crazy, should be the takeaway. Even as an original trilogy purist you'd have to see that the Jedi are hardly good guys, lying to make their goals happen and advocating bloody murder as the only way. The prequels do a great deal to reinforce that point, even without Clone Wars hammering home how screwed up the Jedi are.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 22:07:51


Post by: Gitzbitah


The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Jedi asked, and were told “there is no father”.

But, the possibly science or magical origin of the girls was only discussed within the Coven.


Well those dark siders presumably would be rubbish boyfriends and not stick around for the kids, so they generate all the Jedi through their carelessness?


Quite the opposite! The Jedi eschew all attachments. Therefore, dark siders strive to be devoted partners, possibly accidentally going over into clingy.

Unless their children are taken and hidden by the Jedi, which happens with alarming regularity.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/19 22:13:39


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Geifer wrote:
Eh, if you propagate an ideal state, there is only the thinnest of lines between actively and passively experiencing it.

Crazy cultists be crazy, should be the takeaway. Even as an original trilogy purist you'd have to see that the Jedi are hardly good guys, lying to make their goals happen and advocating bloody murder as the only way. The prequels do a great deal to reinforce that point, even without Clone Wars hammering home how screwed up the Jedi are.


Reinforced by Yoda during Rebels. He explains to Ezra the Jedi failed utterly. Not just in preventing the rise of the Empire, but by being so easily duped into helping it come to pass in the first place. Peacekeepers that became Generals, expertly manipulated by a Sith Lord not just hiding right under their noses, but orchestrating the entire war.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/20 02:33:16


Post by: epronovost


So far from the four episode from the show I am a bit disappointed. I think the plot and the writing while not great is passable; a 6.5 or 7 out of ten on this metric. The last episode cliffhanger of a sort is bothering me a bit though, but it's my only problem with passing so far. Also, on another note, am I the only one who think they telegraphed a bit too much the identity of the Sith Lord as the rather bumbling rogue who helps and accompanies Mae and that this said Sith Lord needs a good soundtrack since pretty much all Star Wars villains had a kick ass theme so far.

The acting though is shockingly bad compared to other Star Wars show. It's not painful, but it's definitely at the lower end of the b movie tier. Since Disney took over the franchise, while it produced some mediocre films/shows like Solo or Book of Boba, the acting in general was one of the few elements that was always at least good, but I must say the lead actresses are pretty poor and the side cast not nearly good enough to salvage this. The stunt work looks good, but I expected something more wuxia in style.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/20 03:22:18


Post by: insaniak


epronovost wrote:
The last episode cliffhanger of a sort is bothering me a bit though, ...

I get that it can be frustrating to have to wait, but that's exactly why cliffhangers (done well) are good... they keep viewers invested. And this was a good cliffhanger.

This episode was also a handy clarification that Mae and Osha don't actually have the exact same hair styles... Just the same style of braids they both had as kids.


Also, on another note, am I the only one who think they telegraphed a bit too much the identity of the Sith Lord as the rather bumbling rogue who helps and accompanies Mae and that this said Sith Lord needs a good soundtrack since pretty much all Star Wars villains had a kick ass theme so far.

I mean, they've only telegraphed it if he does turn out to be Lord Smiley (and that's not actually certain, at this point, even if it does look like the most likely possibility)... but they've also, as mentioned just up the thread a bit, never actually confirmed that he's a Sith.


Since Disney took over the franchise, while it produced some mediocre films/shows like Solo or Book of Boba, the acting in general was one of the few elements that was always at least good, but I must say the lead actresses are pretty poor and the side cast not nearly good enough to salvage this. The stunt work looks good, but I expected something more wuxia in style.

The acting in Book of Boba Fett was, I think, largely worse than this one, and they're both no worse than the acting in the Prequels.

And Solo is a fun movie, for all it's flaws. I rate it as better than at least two of the Sequels.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/20 17:43:22


Post by: epronovost


 insaniak wrote:
I get that it can be frustrating to have to wait, but that's exactly why cliffhangers (done well) are good... they keep viewers invested. And this was a good cliffhanger.


I agree that it was a very good cliffhanger.

This episode was also a handy clarification that Mae and Osha don't actually have the exact same hair styles... Just the same style of braids they both had as kids.


Really? I thought it was pretty obvious that Osha had shorter hairs than Mae even though they have the same kind of braids.

I mean, they've only telegraphed it if he does turn out to be Lord Smiley (and that's not actually certain, at this point, even if it does look like the most likely possibility)... but they've also, as mentioned just up the thread a bit, never actually confirmed that he's a Sith.


The Jedi cast cannot confirm that he is a Sith because they are convinced and will remained convinced that the Sith are dead and gone and that, while there are no known rogue Jedi or rogue splinter order of the Jedi around, this is their most likely hypothesis. Note that they specifically refuse to inform the Jedi council as to avoid a political scandal or Jedi being murdered by a force trained assassin, but it also gives a convenient excuse as to why, a 100 years later, Darth Maul would be the first known Sith encounter in a 1000 years. I think the red lightsaber is a dead giveaway that he is indeed a Sith since rogue Jedi and even "Dark side users" are not represented in Star Wars canon as wielding red light sabers. When Dooku recruits Ventress, she has a green and blue lightsabers and after leaving him a yellow one. Baylan and Shin Hati have orange one's. I think the Jedi in this series are still in denial which is very understandable.


The acting in Book of Boba Fett was, I think, largely worse than this one, and they're both no worse than the acting in the Prequels.


In terms of quality overall, I would agree that Boba Fett is currently a worst show than the Acolyte, but I disagree on the acting. Temuera Morrison has a solid screen presence and is an excellent "body actor" (conveying emotion and information through body language alone) and the side cast was pretty darn good too. Maybe the cast of the Acolyte will grow a bit more on me, but so far it's a bit bleh.

The prequels had good actors with poor direction and rather bad dialogues so I would not say it's so much an acting problem in this case.

And Solo is a fun movie, for all it's flaws. I rate it as better than at least two of the Sequels.


I would agree that people have been strangely hard on Solo. It wasn't a great movie and certainly a fairly unremarkable addition to the Star Wars franchise, but it was a fun movie with fairly low stakes.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/20 18:06:43


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Solo, at worst, is just kinda disposable. Of all the Star Wars live action stuff? It brings the least to the table in exploring and expanding the universe.

That’s not to say it brings nothing. Just not as much as the rest.

Though a chunk of that is Disney’s seemingly stubborn refusal to delve any further into Crimson Dawn, and how Maul went from heading up a powerful crime syndicate, to being lost and alone on Malachor.

And let’s face it. The criminal underworld is a significant part of Star Wars yet to be given on-screen proper justice.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/20 18:42:35


Post by: LunarSol


Solo is just a movie that's hard to pay attention to because its actual story is constantly distracted by explaining every single detail ever hinted at with the character. The purpose of every scene is constantly sidelined to explain the origins of the dice or his name or his blaster or his ship or what have you that its basically impossible to get a sense of the actual events of the film.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/21 06:51:36


Post by: Geifer


epronovost wrote:
This episode was also a handy clarification that Mae and Osha don't actually have the exact same hair styles... Just the same style of braids they both had as kids.


Really? I thought it was pretty obvious that Osha had shorter hairs than Mae even though they have the same kind of braids.


For what it's worth, I didn't notice a difference either until this episode.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/21 10:09:34


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

And let’s face it. The criminal underworld is a significant part of Star Wars yet to be given on-screen proper justice.


Doubt they will. Nasty criminals are not kid friendly, maybe Andor will given the importance of crime groups to the Russian revolution, but don't count on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:
Solo is just a movie that's hard to pay attention to because its actual story is constantly distracted by explaining every single detail ever hinted at with the character. The purpose of every scene is constantly sidelined to explain the origins of the dice or his name or his blaster or his ship or what have you that its basically impossible to get a sense of the actual events of the film.


That was terrible. Really terrible. Like they took one of those background books and wanted to make a story out of all the wikipedia articles. Such a shame as a straightforward grow up/meet up/get in the game origin story (without early rebellion charity work, make him a criminal, his humanising can be in the original trilogy, but sure throw in a bunch of Empire resentments) could have been great fun.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 02:32:37


Post by: nels1031


Best episode yet, but still pretty bad.

The revelation of Darth Smiley’s identity was something that I found out about 3 weeks ago after falling down a reddit rabbit hole that had set photos and such. Pretty hilarious.

The combat was cool (minus the Kung-fu) and the killcount was impressive, but this show has no concept of distance/space. People had to be guided to the Wookie’s hideout in this dense forest, but if someone runs off they always catch up/run into whoever they need to run into…

Spoiler:
So this whole thing hinges on the Jedi not taking offbrand Ezra Miller(Qimir) into custody after they found out that he helped poison a Jedi Master and probably killed the original shopkeeper? There is a lot of dumb gak that happens very convienently in this show. .


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 03:19:44


Post by: insaniak


 nels1031 wrote:

Spoiler:
So this whole thing hinges on the Jedi not taking offbrand Ezra Miller(Qimir) into custody after they found out that he helped poison a Jedi Master and probably killed the original shopkeeper? There is a lot of dumb gak that happens very convienently in this show. .

In the setting where a Sith Lord was effectively controlling the entire senate, and doing so while literally sitting right in front of the most powerful Jedi of the age, yes, sometimes the Jedi don't make the best decisions. Yoda even mentions why that is.

If 'stuff happens simply because it's essential to the plot' is a problem for you, you're in entirely the wrong franchise.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 07:15:15


Post by: AduroT


Interesting metal.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 07:47:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Quite a bit going on here.

Spoiler:
We now know who our Sith is. But not if he’s the only one, or who they actually are, and whether or not they played a hand in the fire.

Given they’re demonstrably pretty handy, and have nifty “beskar with knobs on” armour, they themselves must’ve been trained by someone.

Twin Magic was kind of expected.

Some very cool lightsaber fighting. Less frenetic and pointlessly showy compared to Revenge of the Sith too. I’m particularly taken with how our Sith worked his armour’s lightsaber knacking trait into his fighting style.

Three episodes to go, and I’m still not sure what the end game is, or whether anyone truly has plot armour. As I’ve said before? For a Star Wars show that’s a really refreshing feel!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 11:35:03


Post by: Gert


Eh. Liked the fight but that's about it.

Everything else was as basic and unexpected as it possibly could have been.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 13:13:21


Post by: StraightSilver


This is the first time in Star Wars where we've seen opponents fighting with lightsabres where they're not just pointlessly hitting each others sabres endlessly.

For once we have an opponent actually trying to get inside someone's guard and hit the body, or disarm their opponent.

That's a refreshing change and worked well.

Doesn't mean there aren't still loads of issues with this episode but it was the best one so far.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 13:41:58


Post by: LunarSol


The action that makes up most of the episode is really strong. The villain turns out surprisingly more compelling than I expected and regularly subverted expectations of where some characters were going. Plot contrivances to let the story continue were pretty annoying and the twins dialogue is incredibly rough, but overall good stuff.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 15:19:17


Post by: The_Real_Chris


StraightSilver wrote:
This is the first time in Star Wars where we've seen opponents fighting with lightsabres where they're not just pointlessly hitting each others sabres endlessly.

For once we have an opponent actually trying to get inside someone's guard and hit the body, or disarm their opponent.

That's a refreshing change and worked well.

Doesn't mean there aren't still loads of issues with this episode but it was the best one so far.


Well yes, I think the common analysis is why wouldn't you use these things as rapiers rather than broadswords...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 17:47:57


Post by: Gitzbitah


Fights were awesome, especially
Spoiler:

Headbutting lightsabers to deactivate them
.
Spoiler:
But even allowing a hearty suspension of disbelief.... how is a simple costume swap possibly going to convince your sister's mind reading mentor that you're her? Mae's plan seems.... problematic even in the regular world. You can't just pick up the mannerisms and speech patterns of someone you haven't seen in 10 years well enough to impersonate them enough to fool a regular friend. Nevermind one that can read your thoughts and emotions.


Ah well, let's see where they're going with this. BORTLES!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 19:04:43


Post by: ccs


 Gitzbitah wrote:
Fights were awesome, especially
Spoiler:

Headbutting lightsabers to deactivate them
.
Spoiler:
But even allowing a hearty suspension of disbelief.... how is a simple costume swap possibly going to convince your sister's mind reading mentor that you're her? Mae's plan seems.... problematic even in the regular world. You can't just pick up the mannerisms and speech patterns of someone you haven't seen in 10 years well enough to impersonate them enough to fool a regular friend. Nevermind one that can read your thoughts and emotions.


Ah well, let's see where they're going with this. BORTLES!


It ok, the little dog guy is coming up behind & knows somethings up.
I'm sure he'll bark out a warning at the right moment.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 20:29:38


Post by: Geifer


Spoiler:
Oh my god, they killed X-23! You bastards!


 Gitzbitah wrote:
Spoiler:
Headbutting lightsabers to deactivate them


Spoiler:
The Senate: The dark side is a path to many powers some would consider unnatural.
Anakin: Like what?
The Senate: Like face tanking light sabers.
Anakin: Woah!


 Gitzbitah wrote:
Spoiler:
But even allowing a hearty suspension of disbelief.... how is a simple costume swap possibly going to convince your sister's mind reading mentor that you're her? Mae's plan seems.... problematic even in the regular world. You can't just pick up the mannerisms and speech patterns of someone you haven't seen in 10 years well enough to impersonate them enough to fool a regular friend. Nevermind one that can read your thoughts and emotions.


Spoiler:
The show has a lot of issues with fake mysteries. It also has issues with setting those things up only to resolve them immediately. In this case, I don't think they're doing themselves any favors cliffhangering something that is so obviously bollocks or setting up an alternative means of revealing that Osha isn't Osha but Mae in disguise! It's kind of overblown and I don't think neither a quick wrap up nor actually trying to play it out is going to feel satisfying.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 20:36:09


Post by: AduroT


 Gitzbitah wrote:
Fights were awesome, especially
Spoiler:

Headbutting lightsabers to deactivate them
.
Spoiler:
But even allowing a hearty suspension of disbelief.... how is a simple costume swap possibly going to convince your sister's mind reading mentor that you're her? Mae's plan seems.... problematic even in the regular world. You can't just pick up the mannerisms and speech patterns of someone you haven't seen in 10 years well enough to impersonate them enough to fool a regular friend. Nevermind one that can read your thoughts and emotions.


Ah well, let's see where they're going with this. BORTLES!


Also the whole face tattoo.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 21:38:56


Post by: insaniak


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Quite a bit going on here.

Spoiler:
We now know who our Sith is. But not if he’s the only one, or who they actually are, and whether or not they played a hand in the fire.

Given they’re demonstrably pretty handy, and have nifty “beskar with knobs on” armour, they themselves must’ve been trained by someone.

Twin Magic was kind of expected.

Some very cool lightsaber fighting. Less frenetic and pointlessly showy compared to Revenge of the Sith too. I’m particularly taken with how our Sith worked his armour’s lightsaber knacking trait into his fighting style.

Three episodes to go, and I’m still not sure what the end game is, or whether anyone truly has plot armour. As I’ve said before? For a Star Wars show that’s a really refreshing feel!


Spoiler:
With Lord Smiley actually calling himself a Sith, they've set up for either Sol to not make it off the planet, or for the council to just not believe he's actually a Sith. Going by the casualties in this episode, I'm guessing they'll go for the former option.


But yeah, that was a very cool episode, and the armour and its effect on the fight was a really nice twist.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/26 22:30:25


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
It would make for a very interesting move if none of the Jedi characters survived this. I mean we've got nearly all of the group that found the twins dead, the hunting party dead bar one including two characters that got a fair whack of screen time.

Honestly, if Osha turns out to join Mr Sith Man I'll be disappointed in how paint-by-numbers this show has turned out to be. "Oh here's a mystery" - mystery is solved the next episode.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 00:08:25


Post by: insaniak


The showrunner supposedly wants three seasons to play out her story, so I'm guessing ...

Spoiler:
...Mae kills Sol to get back in Qimir's good books, with the aim of her and Osha together killing Qimir and running off into the sunset... and whether or not that winds up being successful, we'll find out in the last episode of the season that Qimir is just the apprentice.


Or not. I generally suck at guessing where a story is going to go, so we'll see how wrong I am, I guess.



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 01:18:42


Post by: AduroT


Oh, I’m absolutely sure that
Spoiler:
our Sith is just the apprentice. Always two there are.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 01:53:02


Post by: nels1031


 insaniak wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

Spoiler:
So this whole thing hinges on the Jedi not taking offbrand Ezra Miller(Qimir) into custody after they found out that he helped poison a Jedi Master and probably killed the original shopkeeper? There is a lot of dumb gak that happens very convienently in this show. .

In the setting where a Sith Lord was effectively controlling the entire senate, and doing so while literally sitting right in front of the most powerful Jedi of the age, yes, sometimes the Jedi don't make the best decisions. Yoda even mentions why that is.

If 'stuff happens simply because it's essential to the plot' is a problem for you, you're in entirely the wrong franchise.


I don’t mind a Sith Lord developing a personality over decades and inveigling his way to power through obfuscation, deception and agents that allow enough seperation that said Sith Lord can rise to such heights in plain sight.

Not taking a person into custody after they confessed to help making a poison that killed someone, knew the killers motivations and is told by local obese Jedi that he’s an unknown person and not the original shopkeeper (so probably killed that person), is pants on head writing. Dude is clearly involved in the conspiracy and is left under the surveilance of obese Jedi and comically escapes. I don’t mind Qimir being the Sith, fooling everyone with his cowardly rogue act, I just think the overall execution was dumb as feth, bordering on insulting. It could’ve been written better.

This show cost $180+ million and the writing is dogshit. But still weirdly better than the last few D+ offerings.






[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 02:38:01


Post by: LordofHats


If we learned anything from the first two episodes of the show, it's that the Jedi are really stupid and don't follow police procedure, or basic sense.

At least the episodes have generally improved as we've gone forward, though I just find the execution overall to just be so humdrum.

It's not Book of Boba Fett bad, but honestly, that's not that much of a milestone.

EDIT: Also I'm both pleased to be right that you-know-who was more than he appeared, and annoyed that the answer was the mostly blindly obvious in the whole show, second only to the non-reveal identical twin reveal.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 06:56:10


Post by: Geifer


 insaniak wrote:
Spoiler:
With Lord Smiley actually calling himself a Sith, they've set up for either Sol to not make it off the planet, or for the council to just not believe he's actually a Sith. Going by the casualties in this episode, I'm guessing they'll go for the former option.

Spoiler:

He doesn't call himself a Sith. He says there's no name for what he is, but the Jedi would likely call him Sith. At face value he's just taunting the Jedi for their (supposed) narrow-minded views and screwing with their heads.

Whether we should take him at his word is a different matter. Yoda certainly has a thing to say on the subject. But we still have no confirmation that he is or isn't a Sith.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 07:33:45


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On the Jedi being stupid?

I’d argue it’s quite possibly complacency, following a sustained period of galactic peace and cooperation.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 20:26:20


Post by: Gert


I mean I know that KOTOR isn't exactly canon but the Sith Empire literally showed up out of nowhere and then attacked Coruscant because they Jedi got complacent.
Oh yeah, then the entire build-up to the Clone Wars happened as well.

Not exactly hard to imagine.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 21:09:26


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On KOTOR?

So far as I know, the Disney era, whilst not directly acknowledging the Old Republic era, is yet to actively replace it.

The era of The Acolyte is High Republic - which I take to mean the Republic at its absolute zenith. As in, all down hill from here.

None of which invalidates KOTOR type stuff?

Happy to be better educated on this, as ever.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 21:14:40


Post by: LunarSol


Correct. KOTOR is set about 4000 years before the OT. This is about 100. No real overlap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
I mean I know that KOTOR isn't exactly canon but the Sith Empire literally showed up out of nowhere and then attacked Coruscant because they Jedi got complacent.
Oh yeah, then the entire build-up to the Clone Wars happened as well.

Not exactly hard to imagine.


I mean, I wouldn't call it complacency. You can't really plan for someone to find a 30,000 year old sentient factory that farts out a constant stream of Star Destroyers.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 21:33:07


Post by: Gert


All I ever did with KOTOR was watch the very cool trailers.

Just trying to give examples of the Jedi not being super great at seeing the Sith coming.

The Dark Side does shroud things after all.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/27 23:09:50


Post by: insaniak


 LordofHats wrote:
If we learned anything from the first two episodes of the show, it's that the Jedi are really stupid and don't follow police procedure, or basic sense.

I mean, our very first introduction to the jedi and how they do things involves one who is hiding for his life and the safety of the child he is supposed to watch over, whipping out a lightsaber in a bar brawl, in a town crawling with Stormtroopers.


An awful lot of the complaints that I've seen about the Acolyte are trying to hold Star Wars to a standard that it never actually met.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 00:59:28


Post by: LordofHats


A fair point.

Counterpoint; Episode IV was good and people will forgive good things their sillier faults.

Things that aren't good on the other hand will be lambasted for everything, even things other media would be forgiven for.

And honestly that's just not on the level in my eyes. In Episode IV it's made out like most people don't even know what a lightsaber is (Luke lacks basic knowledge of what the Jedi were), so it's not that flashy when Obi-Wan uses it. The idea the Empire is hunting Jedi in this era was introduced by media 40ish years later and I'm not going to fault Episode IV for a continuity problem modern Star Wars introduced.

In Acolyte, this guy is basically suspected of being an accomplice in a string of murders, but no one bothers to hang onto him or try to get information out of him. But of course, that might get in the way of the plot. Can't have that. Which I point out again, is something Attack of the Clones did better. When Attack of the Clones is beating you in the narrative department, you've got problems.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 01:42:42


Post by: insaniak


 LordofHats wrote:
The idea the Empire is hunting Jedi in this era was introduced by media 40ish years later ...

It really wasn't. There was background material at least as early as the '80s talking about Vader's main job being the hunting of jedi.

When Attack of the Clones is beating you in the narrative department, you've got problems.

I think I would have to disagree that the movie that has the jedi, already aware that things are being manipulated by a Sith Lord, discovering a clone army seemingly ordered in secret by a dead Master and using a Bounty Hunter who tried to assassinate a senator as a template, simply saying 'Yup, seems legit', or Padme reacting to Anakin slaughtering an entire tribe of Tuskens by saying 'Oh dear, have a hug, you poor thing...' is any better than the Acolyte in the narrative department, honestly.

Star Wars has always been full of holes, things happening because of plot requirements (Episode 4 is also the movie where two droids, after crash landing on Tattoine, are conveniently picked up by Jawas who sell both of them on to a farmer who just happens to know, and live within walking distance of, the person they need to find), and poor narrative choices. Some were there from the start, some were introduced by later material contradicting or invalidating earlier material. The secret to enjoying it anyway has always been to just not take it all too seriously.


The alternative is, of course, to watch everything that is released and complain endlessly about its flaws... and if that's really how you want to spend your time, then you do you, but I'd really recommend just going and watching something you actually like, instead, because Star Wars is unlikely to ever reach the standard you're holding it to. It's not that sort of franchise, and never has been.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 02:19:48


Post by: Overread


My impression with Obiwan's scene with the lightsabre is

1) Jedi are so insanely rare by this point in time and for such a long period that they are myths and most people have no idea what a lightsaber is. They know that its strange and different and that was likely what was reported to the Storm Troopers, esp as they were also with two droids. Strange people doing strange things with two droids when the Troopers are looking for droids - that's easy to add up.

2) Obiwan already tried some subtle force move to dissuade the two people and it failed - when he tried to get the drink. The sudden violence left Obiwan in a fight situation and he doesn't carry a blaster - so he lashed out with his only weapon to hand - the lightsaber.

Now you could argue that he should have Force Powers and basic hand to hand combat skills. However he likely just wanted to be in-out fast. Plus he's old and hasn't honestly fought for a very long time. All that adds up to likely going for the energy blade over anything else. It's quick; gets the job done and no one dares starts a brawl


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 03:46:29


Post by: LordofHats


 insaniak wrote:

It really wasn't. There was background material at least as early as the '80s talking about Vader's main job being the hunting of jedi.


So, Episode IV can be criticized by looking at extra materials, but Acolyte can be criticized by its own internal logic?

is any better than the Acolyte in the narrative department, honestly.


You say that like my point isn't that Attack of the Clones is a low bar, but Acolyte is lower.

The alternative is, of course, to watch everything that is released and complain endlessly about its flaws


I suppose I could always try my hand and complaining endlessly about about people complaining endlessly about flawed media, but I'd recommend that it's okay to like something other people dislike and telling other people how they should spend their time is kind of self-centered and rude.

But you do you.

For better or worse, needlessly complaining about media is now part of pop culture. I don't really like it either, but I also think the Acolyte just isn't that good and is far from a victim of needless complaining. It's a janky show that may yet pull off a better ending than its start, but that start is still pretty bad.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 07:09:50


Post by: Slipspace


This episode was definitely better than the previous two. That's not saying much, but at least it had some momentum and seems to be moving the plot forward with some degree of urgency. That said:

Spoiler:
The "mystery" of who the not-Sith is wasn't much of one, but was treated like some big reveal (for example, the dialogue about taking off the mask, the way he's eventually revealed from behind Cheetarah). The problem is the extreme lack of candidates introduced so far. I feel like if they wanted to go this route they should have spent more time building up an actual mystery. I'm also not sure if they wanted the deaths of almost all the Jedi to be some sort of shock to the audience, but I think the pacing issues highlighted a few weeks ago lessened the impact here. We spent a it of time with...uh...no idea what their names are now...the other two Jedi who weren't strictly just redshirts. but taking a whole episode out to do a flashback, then having a short episode before this one robbed them of the chance to really develop those characters and make their deaths more meaningful.

Speaking of deaths, the plot armour on show here is most impressive. On multiple occasions here various characters could have been killed or captured but just weren't. They tried to go with the idea of the Sith urgently trying to chase down Mae a couple of times, but given the offhand way he deals with the redshirts it felt really contrived. Not capturing the Sith was just a weird moment of utter ineptitude. It's interesting to see Sol lose his cool at that moment, but there's a huge gulf between not killing unarmed enemies and just letting the dude go.

I really, really hope the switching of the twins is resolved in the first couple of minutes in the next episode. It's such a dumb idea on the surface of it and while Mae has been portrayed as somewhat naive, she's veering into outright stupidity at this point. I just hope it's not contagious. They even pointed out in this very episode that Master Sol can read people's thoughts, when the Sith first refuses to take off his mask. Then there's the whole face tattoo issue, combined with the fact that cutting our hair short with a lightsaber probably isn't going to cut it for any but the most superficial disguise. In the very first episode Trinity recognised Mae from the tattoo, and she had no reason to even think she was alive at that point.


It's frustrating because there are some seeds of some interesting ideas here, in terms of both character and world-building. The Acolyte seems to be struggling to stick the landing so far and there's not a lot of runtime left to resolve things.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 09:40:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On our not-a-Sith-but-are-they?

Spoiler:
We now know their identity. But we still don’t actually know who they are, or what their motivations might be. Yes we know they want to expose the Jedi Order. But we’ve no idea why.

The dialogue also suggest Sol should know who he is.

Overall, there’s still a lot of mystery to this not-a-Sith-but-are-they character.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 12:46:29


Post by: Geifer


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Jedi being stupid?

I’d argue it’s quite possibly complacency, following a sustained period of galactic peace and cooperation.


I'm tempted to say it's neither stupidity nor complacency. There's a logical progression to letting Qimir go right there on screen.

When the Jedi strategize, (young and idealistic) Yord suggests the by the book approach to go and arrest Qimir for questioning. (Ever the one-upper) Jecki instead suggests sending Osha undercover to get intel on Mae and for Qimir to incriminate himself. (Bossman) Sol goes with the latter suggestion.

When they come in to arrest Qimir, after the twin act failed pretty much immediately (just to say, that should set expectations for Mae's try), things develop for Sol to ultimately suggest that he might consider letting the apothecary who by his own admission supplies criminal elements with poison for a living go as long as he cooperates in Mae's arrest. Lo and behold, by the end Sol is good to his word and Qimir is let off the hook with a mere warning.

Now it's not necessarily elegantly done and keeping the local Jedi in his very open observation post as if they believe Mae is stupid enough to walk into the same trap a second time (she kind of is, because she kind of does, and it takes some bumbling on the Jedi's part for it to work out for Mae...) raises some questions, but you can read a point into the whole thing that makes the question of following or failing to follow due procedure moot. Sol as the Jedi in charge opts for a deal with the dangerous criminal to secure his actual objective. This plays into the show's theme of the Jedi's moral destitution. It's not like following procedure didn't occur to anyone or wasn't explicitly put up as an option. But the boss made the decision that he expected to produce quick results regardless of the moral implications of letting a poisoner who had a hand in who knows how many murders walk off into the sunset and continue his trade.

It complements Yord's habit of drawing his lightsaber unprovoked in giving actual, visible credence to Lord Smiley's manifesto. This isn't an issue of writing quality, in my opinion. It's a deliberate choice as part of one of the show's big themes.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 13:54:09


Post by: Easy E


If Star wars came out now, it would be killed online by people (rightfully) claiming the writing was terrible, because it was.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 14:06:08


Post by: Skinnereal


But at the time, it was the best of what we had.
What happened later did not get a lot better, but it had found its place.
And online impat might have been taken into account, changing what we got.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 14:28:12


Post by: Slipspace


 Easy E wrote:
If Star wars came out now, it would be killed online by people (rightfully) claiming the writing was terrible, because it was.

The writing wasn't great, sure. A lot of the problems were only created after the movies as a result of the expansion of the SW background. Also, ANH is a fun film with good pacing, decent plot, an conic villain and just enough intriguing sci-fi/fantasy tropes to elevate it above more mundane fare. I don't think many people hold up SW as some sort of genius-level writing, but it is largely successful at what it's aiming to do.

The problem with a lot of the more modern SW stuff is it's not written much better - if at all - but also forgets about things like being fun, or trips over the rules of the setting that have become too constraining over the years. Note that when they get it right it's really, really good, as with Mando or Andor. It's also only really similar to Star Trek and Marvel in how heavily it's been milked over the years. Most franchises don't get to the state some SW properties do because the studios stop well before then.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 14:47:02


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Just broadly, I think peeps also need to accept that as we get older, we’re naturally more critical of media.

Not only have we seen ever more stuff? But we’re just more mature, and so it’s harder to blow us away as adults than it was when we were kids. And so when a new entry in a long beloved franchise is offered up, we’re prone to disappointment when it doesn’t excite us as it once did.

Now that’s not to say “therefore it all grate you are just old”. Objective crap does exist. But we sometimes mistake mediocre for garbage, because we don’t always consider a lot of what we loved as kids was itself mediocre at best.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 14:59:35


Post by: Overread


Hyper analysis of almost anything will show errors, glitches, imperfections and more. It can also move you out of a film (or creative work) "headspace" and into one of hyper analysis and that in turn can start to erode elements of the whole experience.


I do think that we have had some very wonky and bad writing for Starwars over the years that really shouldn't be the case considering the vast sums spent; however its not alone. Hollywood in general seems to have some massive issues today with pacing, plotting and intelligent action in films. It also doesn't help that a lot of the issues are often fully resolved in earlier versions of the story and script; which steadily get cut, changed, removed, altered, put back, turned around and everything else during the production of the film.

So many of the issues we see are not in the original documents; but are the result of lots of little changes (and some big ones) that all add up to the mess at the end.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 15:05:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Yeah, I’d agree with that.

I even enjoy the sequel trilogy. Individually, each film is fine. But it feels like a trilogy made up of films from different takes on the trilogy. Like nine films were made in total, with two for each stage binned.

Though some criticisms are just daft or plain ill informed. Ahsoka catching heat for her “arms folded, lean backwards a bit stance”. That’s….thats what a now 16 year old character has always done. That’s her signature stance.

And I argue Ahsoka has a more interesting and meaningful heroes journey than Luke.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 15:55:27


Post by: Scrabb


The inevitable arrival of the "Star Wars has always been crappy, why won't you eat today's Star Wars crap?" narrative is upon us I see.

You could set your clock to it.


OT Star Wars is about a son saving his father. It's about hope and optimism triumphing over cynicism and rationality.

The Acolyte is about there being no good guys. Authority corrupts and no one rises above it.

The show writers have a chip on their shoulders just like Smilo-Ren. Our resident bad guy says the Jedi would call him Sith, implying small and narrowminded Jedi behavior. But the truth is the Jedi haven't labeled anyone a Sith for 900 years. Smilo has either invented all this in his head or the showrunners plan to rewrite history to make him right.

And after making everyone a scumbag they will take pleasure in casting down those who claim moral superiority.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 15:55:56


Post by: Bran Dawri


 LordofHats wrote:

It's not Book of Boba Fett bad, but honestly, that's not that much of a milestone.


I don't even think Book of Boba Fett was that bad. It just took a completely random 180 turn on the character. If that show had just focussed on someone other than Boba - who's basically a byword for ruthless - it would've been fine.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 17:56:21


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Bran Dawri wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:

It's not Book of Boba Fett bad, but honestly, that's not that much of a milestone.


I don't even think Book of Boba Fett was that bad. It just took a completely random 180 turn on the character. If that show had just focussed on someone other than Boba - who's basically a byword for ruthless - it would've been fine.


Or after becoming a crime lord he did some, I don’t know, crime?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 18:21:59


Post by: LunarSol


I'm generally more prone to being on the positive end of the Star Wars debate, but honestly BoBF was bad in a way that the others really aren't. I actually think there's a fine film to be made out of it, but its so light on real content that most of its runtime is padded out to the point where it barely tells its own story. It's probably the worst realized potential out of recent Star Wars projects and the one I had the hardest time enjoying simply because you can clearly see the pieces don't fit but exactly how they were supposed to be put together.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 23:18:06


Post by: AegisGrimm


Star Wars had tropes and bad writing, but it benefitted from the era it was released in. We used to look past the bad writing and just have fun.

Today, everyone on social media is obsessed with the current fad of review-bombing everything to death, because evidently helping destroy something gives them some sort of dysfunctional sense of inflated self-worth and a tribal belonging with the other people they are joining.

Modern Star Wars isn't any worse than any of the Star Wars of our youth. Any of us that were kids during the 80's and 90's still had loads of fun watching the Ewok Adventure, don't deny it.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/28 23:23:13


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Caravan of Courage is a great kid’s adventure film.

Main downside is the Ewok costumes have terrifying eyes.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/06/29 00:36:31


Post by: LordofHats


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On our not-a-Sith-but-are-they?

Spoiler:
We now know their identity. But we still don’t actually know who they are, or what their motivations might be. Yes we know they want to expose the Jedi Order. But we’ve no idea why.

The dialogue also suggest Sol should know who he is.

Overall, there’s still a lot of mystery to this not-a-Sith-but-are-they character.


Spoiler:
It would be pretty juicy if this ended up being some bizarre revenge within the revenge gambit.


I think the only thing we can know for sure is that he's probably unrelated to Palageius and any apprentices Mr. Wise and Tragic may have. Seems like they're going the route of this being a rogue dark sider.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/01 15:37:52


Post by: gorgon


 AegisGrimm wrote:
Star Wars had tropes and bad writing, but it benefitted from the era it was released in. We used to look past the bad writing and just have fun.

Today, everyone on social media is obsessed with the current fad of review-bombing everything to death, because evidently helping destroy something gives them some sort of dysfunctional sense of inflated self-worth and a tribal belonging with the other people they are joining.

Modern Star Wars isn't any worse than any of the Star Wars of our youth. Any of us that were kids during the 80's and 90's still had loads of fun watching the Ewok Adventure, don't deny it.


Honestly, I think Return of the Jedi is very overrated. I feel it gets the love it gets not because of the quality of the film but because of who's in it and what happens during it. ROTJ previewed all the issues with the prequel trilogy, including awkward dialogue that the cast visibly struggles with and emotional moments that it doesn't quite nail. This isn't even a hindsight thing...I can remember seeing it as a kid in the theater and feeling entertained but a little let down.

I'm only one episode into The Acolyte, and so far it seems fine. Ahsoka was the same way...completely fine popcorn entertainment, basically on the level of what SW has been ever since TESB. Andor was clearly a cut above, and probably the best SW live action since TESB IMO. So of course it struggled some with viewership. SW fandom has just gotten so big and diverse in terms of specific interests and interfaces with the IP that they'll never suit everyone anymore. And there is clearly a not-insignificant chunk of SW fans who have an unhealthy/toxic relationship with the IP who have found some kind of purpose with gaking on all of it as you said. It's so weird and sad.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/01 21:34:45


Post by: LordofHats


Almost as sad as cheap snipes at other people's opinions instead of just letting people like what they like and dislike what they dislike.

It's really weird watching people dysfunctionally seek self-worth by circle jerking each other about how anyone else is just circle jerking and couldn't possibly have a negative opinion honestly.

Weird and sad indeed.

I vote we allow people to like and dislike things for their own reasons. It's far more civilized.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/02 01:56:42


Post by: gorgon


 LordofHats wrote:
Almost as sad as cheap snipes at other people's opinions instead of just letting people like what they like and dislike what they dislike.

It's really weird watching people dysfunctionally seek self-worth by circle jerking each other about how anyone else is just circle jerking and couldn't possibly have a negative opinion honestly.

Weird and sad indeed.

I vote we allow people to like and dislike things for their own reasons. It's far more civilized.


Wow.

The fact that you were triggered by that fairly tame post...says a lot, I guess. I mean, IF YOU READ that exchange, it really wasn't about labeling everyone who disliked or was lukewarm about this or that SW vehicle. I even stated I'm not a big fan of ROTJ. So that's a strawman on your part. And I wouldn't have thought to put you in the toxic troll category (which does exist) so I'm surprised you're acting so defensive and hyper-sensitive. But if that's how you identify...you do you I suppose...




[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/02 03:48:29


Post by: LordofHats


 gorgon wrote:
The fact that you were triggered by that fairly tame post.


If I've misconstrued, then I apologize. Poe's law is a thing and I saw labeling people 'weird and sad' for having negative opinions to be kind of passive aggressive and snide by default. Especially on Star Wars topics, where it seems impossible to have any opinion without someone deciding you're not allowed to have it.

Especially in this thread, where I've repeatedly been told I'm not allowed to have my opinions so maybe that's some unearned projection sent unfairly your way.

People who 'gak' all over the IP aren't the only people being toxicly trolling in Star Wars. People who demand you must like it or your not allowed to be around are just as toxic.

On ROTL; I don't even think about ROTJ much. New Hope and Strikes Back? Rewatch them here and there but I don't think I've rewatched Return in ages. Actually, I think I've rewatched the prequels more than Return and I don't have a high opinion of the prequels. Always struck me that things that are discernably bad are still more memorable than things that are mediocre or so average they don't stand out at all. There's almost nothing worse in media than just being mediocre. Sure the prequels are bad but the prequels have spawned more memes than I can count.

Like the saga of Anakin's Jedi Thesis;




[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/02 13:44:04


Post by: LunarSol


I really like RotJ. It's definitely got issues but it sticks the landing. Honestly, I think Empire would be far less fondly remembered if it hadn't gotten a properly satisfying follow up.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/02 15:09:20


Post by: Hulksmash


 LunarSol wrote:
I really like RotJ. It's definitely got issues but it sticks the landing. Honestly, I think Empire would be far less fondly remembered if it hadn't gotten a properly satisfying follow up.


This. Empire ended in a very bleak and dark place. And for some of the faults of ROTJ it really does stick the landing overall.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/02 16:34:40


Post by: Scrabb


The climax of RotJ is why I love Star Wars.

Favorite movie of the franchise.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/02 21:01:34


Post by: insaniak


I remember being a bit annoyed as a kid that Vader actually did turn out to be Luke's father, as I was fully convinced after Empire that Vader was lying as part of his attempt to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Other than that, RotJ suffered from so much of it being a retread of things we'd already seen before. We'd already been to Tatooine, and to Dagobah, and a partially completed Death Star was a little naff after we'd already seen a completed one zipping about...

It copped a lot of criticism for the blatant merchandising choices and phoned in acting (particularly from Harrison Ford, who very obviously did not want to be there)... But Ewoks are cool, and all of the new ships introduced in RotJ were brilliant,
.

And, yeah, the battle with the Emperor and Vader was awesome.

It's definitely not my favourite movie of the franchise, but it's still a fun bit of Star Wars.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/02 21:16:33


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I did a thread a week or so of my breakdown of what made the Endor Space Battle so great.

And ROTJ is still probably my favourite Star Wars movie. Sure Tattooine is recycled, but Jabba’s Palace and the subsequent battle are just superb. And we get a meaty big battle at the end.

Dagobah does drag slightly, but it still works and moves the plot along. And of course, it’s our first glimpse of how liberal with the truth Jedi can be - from a certain point of view.

I also prefer its overall palette. ESB is very austere in terms of colours, especially pre-special editions. And Cloud City in particular still feels overly clinically clean to me. Like nobody actually lives there.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/02 21:41:24


Post by: LordofHats


The space battle's definitely peak.

The only contender in the category I think is the battle at the end of Rogue One.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/03 07:59:33


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Acolyte E6 - Teach / Corrupt

Lots of interesting things going on here.

Spoiler:
As expected, there’s more to the loss of Mae and Osha’s folks than expected - but quite what is yet to be revealed.

Green skinned Jedi Woman clearly at least suspects who our mystery not-a-Sith-but-are-they actually is - something we the audience don’t yet know.

And we glean a wee bit more about why Osha is no longer a Jedi.

But we’re now just two episodes out from the end of this tale - or possibly season of The Acolyte - and there remain a fair amount of ground to be covered.

Will it stick the landing? Guess we’ll know by 17 July!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/03 10:13:47


Post by: nels1031


Qimir became the most interesting character in the series in one episode. Meanwhile, I don’t even remember the names of the dead Jedi.

Few days ago I learned that the actor playing Sol didn’t speak English before this series. If thats true he’s doing a pretty damn good job.

Spoiler:
I’m thinking Qimir is Green ladies wayward apprentice, hence her desire to cover up as much as possible. And that's who the 4 Jedi were looking for at the Power of Many Mansion.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/03 19:37:04


Post by: Nicky J


 nels1031 wrote:

Spoiler:
I’m thinking Qimir is Green ladies wayward apprentice, hence her desire to cover up as much as possible. And that's who the 4 Jedi were looking for at the Power of Many Mansion.


Spoiler:
Yeah, I thought Qimir’s scar looked a bit like it could be from a whip… a laser whip maybe…?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/04 08:00:13


Post by: Slipspace


Decent enough episode this week, with a few more details teased.

Spoiler:
I'm still not clear whether Sol knew it was Mae the whole time. I get that he was emotionally traumatised, but not making that clear isn't helping his character, IMO. I think the whole scenario on Sol's ship was pretty poorly handled - the ship not working properly for...reasons, Mae not just killing Sol at the first opportunity, Sol maybe letting Mae wander around freely, unless he didn't know she was Mae, in which case he's a terrible Jedi. It's all just a little too contrived.

The scenes with Qimir were really good though. The portrayal of the Dark Side philosophy is compellingly done and is a good contrast to what they're trying to show with the Jedi, but not quite succeeding. Just once I'd like for the "kill me, give in to your anger" approach to lead to the villain getting killed, though. Those scenes always feel like a bit of a cheat to me, from the audience's perspective.

With only 2 episodes to go it feels like we're going to have to pack a lot in before the end of the season, which only makes the earlier pacing issues all the more frustrating. It's good that the quality seems to be on an upward trajectory now we have a compelling antagonist.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/04 08:02:28


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Im kind of expecting a further season to be honest.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/04 09:41:02


Post by: Geifer


 nels1031 wrote:
Few days ago I learned that the actor playing Sol didn’t speak English before this series. If thats true he’s doing a pretty damn good job.


That's cool.

Slipspace wrote:
Decent enough episode this week, with a few more details teased.

Spoiler:
I'm still not clear whether Sol knew it was Mae the whole time. I get that he was emotionally traumatised, but not making that clear isn't helping his character, IMO. I think the whole scenario on Sol's ship was pretty poorly handled - the ship not working properly for...reasons, Mae not just killing Sol at the first opportunity, Sol maybe letting Mae wander around freely, unless he didn't know she was Mae, in which case he's a terrible Jedi. It's all just a little too contrived.

The scenes with Qimir were really good though. The portrayal of the Dark Side philosophy is compellingly done and is a good contrast to what they're trying to show with the Jedi, but not quite succeeding. Just once I'd like for the "kill me, give in to your anger" approach to lead to the villain getting killed, though. Those scenes always feel like a bit of a cheat to me, from the audience's perspective.

With only 2 episodes to go it feels like we're going to have to pack a lot in before the end of the season, which only makes the earlier pacing issues all the more frustrating. It's good that the quality seems to be on an upward trajectory now we have a compelling antagonist.


By and large that's where I'm at with this episode. They have some good ideas for the main story and are reasonably competent at getting them across, but there's also a good bit of unnecessary peripheral WTF stuff. On the bright side, unlike in, say, Obi-Wan, it doesn't have too much of an impact on the main event. That's good enough for me, even if shoddy craft is annoying in the moment.

Spoiler:
On the dark side pitch, it's hard to pull off in Star Wars. Usually the would be apprentice isn't ready to murder someone yet. If they're really so incapable of suppressing their anger to kill the guy that offers them training and power, you run into the problem that being a wise dark side master, they'd a) not pitch it like that to someone volatile or b) sense it coming if they do. Dark side masters being exceptionally strong with the Force puts a cap on what a prospective apprentice can reasonably achieve against the master's will.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/04 11:08:12


Post by: Slipspace


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Im kind of expecting a further season to be honest.

As am I, but that doesn't let them off the hook for resolving the story of this season in some way. This whole season has been about Mae, Osha and some mysterious event involving the Jedi and the fire. Not resolving that makes the entire season little but filler. I don't mind leaving a few hanging threads for a future season, but you still need to follow through with this season's story.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/04 12:29:36


Post by: insaniak


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Im kind of expecting a further season to be honest.

Showrunner has said that while she would like three seasons, this one will have a clear resolution. Presumably so we're not left with a cliffhanger if it doesn't get renewed.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/04 12:46:53


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Slipspace wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Im kind of expecting a further season to be honest.

As am I, but that doesn't let them off the hook for resolving the story of this season in some way. This whole season has been about Mae, Osha and some mysterious event involving the Jedi and the fire. Not resolving that makes the entire season little but filler. I don't mind leaving a few hanging threads for a future season, but you still need to follow through with this season's story.


I agree. But I’m open to a mystery or two being left for future seasons.

Which to be honest is a tricky thing to pull off, because the mysteries need to interesting ones.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/04 14:29:26


Post by: AduroT


Yeah, I thought they’d said it was supposed to be a three season story line to tell Osha’s story.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/04 14:49:46


Post by: LordofHats


I also heard the showrunners desired three seasons.

Hopefully the season ends at a decent spot given Disney's production timelines might not slot future Acolyte seasons for a while.

On the dark side thing, I feel like the dark siders in Star Wars have always sort of had a leg up on 'evil is cool' in the franchise (applies to the Empire too). Almost anything that takes more than a surface level approach to light/dark for the dark side usually comes out as interesting if nothing else.

Correspondingly the light side tends to start looking silly the harder you try to look at it. Or the balance side or whatever. Having flashbacks to the Ghosts of Mortis trilogy in ye old Clone Wars where Lucas' attempt to try and have depth in the whole thing came out really clumsily.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/05 17:23:57


Post by: Jadenim


Think you guys covered most of my feelings/points. I get the feeling that next episode is going to be another full flashback episode?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/05 17:38:14


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Possibly.

But, and I appreciate it might not be a common view?

If we get further seasons?

Imagine the flashback being the finale? It could be a strong move, Spesh if E7 sees Qimir bumped off, and the discovery he was the Sith apprentice, for what’s so far been a more interesting take on The Phantom Menace.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/05 23:18:50


Post by: insaniak


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Imagine the flashback being the finale? It could be a strong move, Spesh if E7 sees Qimir bumped off, and the discovery he was the Sith apprentice, for what’s so far been a more interesting take on The Phantom Menace.

I'm still not entirely sure they're going for Qimir being a Sith at all. The red lightsaber and the skulking about are certainly clues, but could also be misdirection and the story feels more like they're leaning towards him being something like Baylan and Shin - fallen Jedi, but not Sith.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/05 23:33:35


Post by: LordofHats


The way he said it makes it clear he's aware of the Sith and maybe practices some of the ideology, but also like he's not party to the school of Darth Bane and the rule of two.

More like he's someone who decided to go around being a dark sider than someone who was raised sith me thinks. Or maybe he's from a different sect of Sith?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/05 23:33:45


Post by: insaniak


 LordofHats wrote:

Correspondingly the light side tends to start looking silly the harder you try to look at it. Or the balance side or whatever. Having flashbacks to the Ghosts of Mortis trilogy in ye old Clone Wars where Lucas' attempt to try and have depth in the whole thing came out really clumsily.

Part of that is the gradual shift in the way Lucas presented the philosophy of the Jedi. The impression I always got from the original trilogy was that it wasn't actually a 'Light Side' and a 'Dark Side'... it was 'The Force' and the Dark Side just eschewed balance and leaned into those aspects of the Force that provided a quick and easy path to power. It wasn't until he started on the Prequels that it codified into distinct 'Light ' and 'Dark' in canon, although the EU had certainly gone that way long before.

Funnily enough, the original version would have made more sense with the whole prophecy of the Chosen One story arc...

That said, I think that having the more binary setup with light and dark makes it easier to write stories where the 'good guys' aren't as good as they appear, and the baddies are similarly not all bad, because you have more defined lines. We as an audience can see when those lines are being crossed, even if the characters in the story can't.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/05 23:36:21


Post by: LordofHats


Yeah. Lucas got weird toward the tail end of his ownership of the IP. He seemed to simultaneously want to nuke the EU from orbit, including the EU interpretation of force as a scale, while also kind of not knowing what the Jedi were supposed to stand for; Balance or the light side of the force. Cause he'd play fast and loose with how that was supposed to work.

More recent IP has kind of decided where it wants to stand on that.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/06 05:03:48


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I dunno how retconny it is, but I kind of like that the Jedi lost their way. Going on about the chosen one that will bring balance, not seeing that “we win, no more Sith” is not in fact balance.

I say retconny as while the dialogue is there for Revenge of the Sith, I suspect it’s the result of bad dialogue that someone has revisited to add some greater context to.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/06 06:43:09


Post by: Jadenim


To me Qimir is actually trying to be a “whole force” user and his line “I don’t know what I am, but you’d call me a Sith” is just aimed at the Jedi dogma, I.E. the Jedi view any force user who doesn’t follow their strict code , particularly if they rely on their emotions, as evil dark siders (which is also an interesting tie-in to the witches).

I think there’s an intriguing implication here that the founding Jedi probably didn’t view emotional force use as “evil”, but just “risky”, so they built the code to minimise that risk. But follow a code for thousands of years and it morphs into “anyone who doesn’t follow our rules is automatically a monster”.

Could also have some interesting tie-ins with Qui-gon and then Yoda’s “living force” approach, which I think was trying to break down some of that dogma.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/08 14:39:49


Post by: LunarSol


 insaniak wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Imagine the flashback being the finale? It could be a strong move, Spesh if E7 sees Qimir bumped off, and the discovery he was the Sith apprentice, for what’s so far been a more interesting take on The Phantom Menace.

I'm still not entirely sure they're going for Qimir being a Sith at all. The red lightsaber and the skulking about are certainly clues, but could also be misdirection and the story feels more like they're leaning towards him being something like Baylan and Shin - fallen Jedi, but not Sith.


He does explicitly say he wants "the power of two" so while he may not be of the Sith line of succession he's clearly copied their homework.

Honestly, this episode and the last have felt like a completely different show in a good way. A lot of the prior storytelling weirdness is gone now that its not trying to be a mystery and cut that cast down to the essentials.

I do really like the focus on connecting to the Force through emotion as something inherently Dark Side rather than limited specifically to anger. It kind of presents the Force as an inherently malevolent entity that the Jedi train to access safely.and gives the Dark Side a less juvenile appeal. It won't get explored properly, but its a neat piece of headcannon for me.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/08 15:50:19


Post by: AduroT


Pretty sure the power of two reference was to the twins and whatever they have going on.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/08 15:59:50


Post by: Grimskul


I think the writing would actually be better if he were referring to the power of "number two" and he went doo doo in the lake he was going skinny dipping in.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/08 16:07:34


Post by: Geifer


 AduroT wrote:
Pretty sure the power of two reference was to the twins and whatever they have going on.


I suppose it could be either depending on how much weight you give the twin thing. I'm leaning in the direction of Sith myself. While the twins may be a thing unto themselves, their coven teaches them about and wants them to accept the power of many, as per the cult's doctrine.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/08 17:14:16


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I read it that it’s a technique where it’s akin to Tank Squaring with The Force?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/08 17:56:32


Post by: Jadenim


 Geifer wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
Pretty sure the power of two reference was to the twins and whatever they have going on.


I suppose it could be either depending on how much weight you give the twin thing. I'm leaning in the direction of Sith myself. While the twins may be a thing unto themselves, their coven teaches them about and wants them to accept the power of many, as per the cult's doctrine.


Yeah, I was going with the “Sith” interpretation, mainly because he seems really keen on having an apprentice (an Acolyte, you might say…)


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/08 19:03:57


Post by: AduroT


I’m thinking it’s the Twin thing because we had the witches talking about The Power Of # earlier. To have it phrased the same way I would think it’s gotta be the same thing.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 03:13:15


Post by: nels1031


Well, they’ve made episode 3 even dumber, possibly.

Spoiler:
A Wookie with clothes is weird. A clothed Wookie with a what looks to be a metal detector is fething hilarious.

Nothing more to the catastrophic fire of the place than Mae burning the book with explosive results.

None of the witches come out looking good in this, even their mind controlling leader. She’s probably most to blame, by preying on the Padawans desire to go home and it led him to making a rash decision.

The Jedi did nothing wrong, they went back with noble intentions and this was a dumb fething reason to have Torbin kill himself 16 years later.

‘I was going to let her go” Well you should’ve led with that instead of going into shadowform for some reason.

Did Torbin reflect all the arrows back at the witches or did they just bounce when Kelnacca got mind controlled?

The ‘power of many’ against a lone Jedi Master in a mind control battle. The many get merc’d. I guess Mother spikyhead gets stuck in the Sunken Place?

Also, a few posters previously theorizing about episode 3 : No mystery person at the ceremony, confirmed. Like I had said, it turned out to be bad stagecraft, which fits in a show with bad writing, bad acting(though the wretched dialogue doesn’t help) bad storytelling and bad pacing. Just textbook aggressive mediocrity start to finish with 1 episode left. Which is a shame, as there could’ve been something good here.



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 05:55:27


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Dude, spoiler tags.

Spoiler:
I basically entirely disagree.

What we have here is a clash of philosophy and a failure to communicate.

Both sides screwed it up. Both sides reacted poorly, entrenched as they are in their position and philosophy.

The Witches wanted the Jedi to leave them be and go away. The Jedi are trying to understand a vergence in the force, in their self appointed role as The Only Force Cult That Can Be Trusted.

There’s also some question as to whether the Witch Cult are all dead. We saw a bunch knocked out, presumably by some kind of feedback when they were exorcised from the Wookiee. But ultimately, it’s only the Mum we can be really confident snuffed it there and then.

As for Sol’s outright murder of the Mum? Ongoing thread of the Jedi not being competent. As if centuries of peace have left them indolent, complacent and unused to stressful situations,


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 07:42:32


Post by: ccs


Spoiler:
 nels1031 wrote:
Well, they’ve made episode 3 even dumber, possibly.

A Wookie with clothes is weird. A clothed Wookie with a what looks to be a metal detector is fething hilarious.

Nothing more to the catastrophic fire of the place than Mae burning the book with explosive results.

None of the witches come out looking good in this, even their mind controlling leader. She’s probably most to blame, by preying on the Padawans desire to go home and it led him to making a rash decision.

The Jedi did nothing wrong, they went back with noble intentions and this was a dumb fething reason to have Torbin kill himself 16 years later.

‘I was going to let her go” Well you should’ve led with that instead of going into shadowform for some reason.

Did Torbin reflect all the arrows back at the witches or did they just bounce when Kelnacca got mind controlled?

The ‘power of many’ against a lone Jedi Master in a mind control battle. The many get merc’d. I guess Mother spikyhead gets stuck in the Sunken Place?

Also, a few posters previously theorizing about episode 3 : No mystery person at the ceremony, confirmed. Like I had said, it turned out to be bad stagecraft, which fits in a show with bad writing, bad acting(though the wretched dialogue doesn’t help) bad storytelling and bad pacing. Just textbook aggressive mediocrity start to finish with 1 episode left. Which is a shame, as there could’ve been something good here.


You continue to watch what you don't enjoy why exactly?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 08:58:14


Post by: nels1031


ccs wrote:
You continue to watch what you don't enjoy why exactly?


I’m glad you asked, and I’m flattered in your interest in my personal viewing habits. Here are my exact reasons:

1. I still love and enjoy Star Wars, despite the wild inconsistency for the past decade+. Its a big part of my entire lifelong interest in the Sci-fi genre, so I watch all of the live action stuff as a rule. The cartoons are a skip for me, hence why I very very strongly doubt you’ll ever see me either praise or gak on them in this subforum. That aspect/format of Star Wars just doesn’t grab me for some reason.

2. If I start a show, I tend to finish out the season regardless of enjoyment. For a few reasons:
A. It may get better.
B. It might get hilariously worse. “So bad its good” and “Campy” type thing.
C. Allows a fuller picture to praise/criticize and judge if I want to continue watching the series.
As an example, I stopped watching Walking Dead after the season where they killed The Governor and left the prison. I’m not even sure how many more seasons went on after that, I just got bored of it. If nothing substantial moves the plot forward in this season of The Boys, I’ll probably call it quits on that show. To me it seems like that show is treading water.

3. Its easy viewing. Average run time of like 30 minutes tops is a breeze when you are painting or playing a game. Even if it blows ass as this tends to, its over before I know it.

4. I don’t watch much. Currently watching The Acolyte, The Boys, House of the Dragon, and pacing out episodes of The Sympathizer mini-series. The latter 2 are mostly dialogue heavy, slow paced, consistently hour long episodes that demand a much more concentrated viewing. Spaced out over 7 days, its not much TV viewing.

5. IMO, its a cultural event and I want to participate. Star Wars, despite the blows its taken over the years, still dominates pop culture and every new release is a big event. A $180 million spectacle or trainwreck, depending on your enjoyment.

6. I paid for it.

Thanks for reading, I hope you enjoyed this insight into my personal viewing habits!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dude, spoiler tags.


My bad, the (spoilers) in the thread title makes me think spoilers are allowed. Edited, because I’m a gentleman!



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 11:53:17


Post by: Gitzbitah


Spoiler:
Well, on the plus side- we got our wookie fight! Seeing him nearly crush a skull was pretty cool. He clearly thought of the lightsabre as a secondary weapon to these hands.

I may have missed it, but I don't think the horned mom was in the exhausted power of many death dogpile. Rather points to her, who started with a massive grudge on her shoulder, as an antagonist. I wonder if she put the Stranger or Mae on their path, though I don't think the series has room to satisfyingly answer those questions.

I really would have preferred this as part of episode 3, or even better, framed as small flashbacks in Sol and Mae's conversation. That was set up to be appropriately dramatic, with a hostile listener, and Sol's halting revelations about how he failed her.

So Sol wasn't running from a shady past at all. He was just incompetent and bungled a mission.

Force Shadow form was pretty awesome. I'd love to find out what it was, and what it's intended to be used for.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 12:02:16


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Something I’m enjoying, which others may not?

Spoiler:
The stakes so far? Are really low. This is a very personal story, with thus far seemingly no great impact on the wider galaxy.

And it’s a tragic one. Inability/unwillingness to trust and clearly communicate, and things went horribly wrong when there absolutely was another way.

Of course, we’ve one last episode to go, and the promise of potentially further tales, so the scope could still widen.

I’m still intrigued by who Qimir actually is, and where his beef with the Jedi Order truly stems from.

And as I’ve said before in this thread? Not knowing where the tale might end, as we’re in uncharted waters in terms of the wider setting is very refreshing. Could Sol go renegade? Will anyone survive?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 12:06:36


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Spoiler:
Something I’m enjoying, which others may not?

[spoiled]The stakes so far? Are really low. This is a very personal story, with thus far seemingly no great impact on the wider galaxy.

And it’s a tragic one. Inability/unwillingness to trust and clearly communicate, and things went horribly wrong when there absolutely was another way.

Of course, we’ve one last episode to go, and the promise of potentially further tales, so the scope could still widen.

I’m still intrigued by who Qimir actually is, and where his beef with the Jedi Order truly stems from.

And as I’ve said before in this thread? Not knowing where the tale might end, as we’re in uncharted waters in terms of the wider setting is very refreshing. Could Sol go renegade? Will anyone survive?


Dude, spoiler tags

But yeah, I have been enjoying it for those reasons you mention. Not every Star Wars story needs to be some massive galaxy threatening plot.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 12:07:05


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


My bad! Mistyped 🤣🤣


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 12:11:14


Post by: Slipspace


Not a great episode.

Spoiler:

The fire still makes no sense. Was the entire place made from explodium? Qimir still has no explanation, despite his comments in a previous episode suggesting Sol should know who he is. I believe we only have one episode left, which will presumably have to resolve that question and do something to resolve at least a part of the twins' story.

The Jedi do indeed continue to come out poorly from this, but it feels more due to stupidity than any philosophical conflict. In fact, the Council apparently makes the "correct" call here by telling them to leave the twins alone, which somewhat undermines any philosophical conflict. As does the Mother deciding to honour Osha's wishes. As does the behaviour of the entire rest of the Coven who basically go full on Evil(tm) at the first opportunity. Then there's the failure to notice a massive inhabited structure within walking distance of them. Do they not have satellites and planetary surveying in Star Wars?

I also don't see what Torbin's problem is here. Sure, he was manipulated in a way that backfired for everyone involved, but what did he actually do? The fire was started by Mae. He killed nobody. Kalnaka(sp?) was mind controlled in a much more devastating way and he was a full-blown Jedi, not just a Padawan. I can understand him taking on some of the responsibility for what was a complete clusterfeth but - again - he comes across as being a bit of an idiot for taking a 16-year long vow of penance. I'm also wondering what the actual plan of the Coven, and especially the Mother, was. What if only the 2 Jedi had shown up? If Kalnaka hadn't arrived, what was the plan, exactly?

Even the choice Sol makes to save Osha seems reasonable in hindsight. Yes, it's a horrible choice to have to make, but if we assume he definitely couldn't save both, saving the one who wants to go with you and isn't obviously Evil(tm) is exactly the sort of choice Jedi have to make and justify all the time.

The pacing and writing just seems pretty questionable here again. We've just had a couple of really good episodes with some good forward momentum, mainly thanks to refocussing the story away from being just about the twins and Sol. Then we go back to a flashback episode that seems to be trying to be much more impactful than it actually is and doesn't reveal anything about the most interesting part of the entire season. I'm doubtful they'll stick the landing on this one.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 14:29:24


Post by: Gert


This is just decisively meh...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 15:01:30


Post by: LunarSol


So I find myself liking the story even if its kind of badly told. This episode had some decent payoff on things people took issue with before but I'm not sure any of them quite make the initial setup intriguing.

Action overall remains quite compelling and the big scene here also did a solid job paying off a prior disappointment. I absolutely adore the focus on disarms throughout that absolutely satisfies a craving for classic Jedi depictions in a way prior attempts really haven't.

My one big nitpick on the fight:

Spoiler:
There is ZERO way you could block a wookie swing with a backhand grip like that.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 15:14:53


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I assume Not-Bacca was resisting the control to some degree?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 16:12:43


Post by: LunarSol


They didn't show it that way if so. I was kind assuming and looking for the same thing but he really doesn't ever show internal resistance. Might be a limit of the suit though.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 21:22:05


Post by: Geifer


I don't know what to think. I'm either too tipsy or not tipsy enough to appreciate episode seven. But the balance is definitely off.

Spoiler:
Say what you will about Anakin, but if he had been mind controlled like that, he'd have come back to murder every last one of the fethers who made him look bad before he goes all emo on us. Torbin skipped the cool step between whiny bitching and whiny breakdown. Boring!

I do share the sentiment that in spite of it being entirely foreseeable that this would be a flashback episode, and we are of course owed answers not given in the first flashback, after two episodes that gave us some cool Qimir action, this is an unfortunate slowdown.

Alright, turns out Mae isn't the evil twin any more than Osha is the good twin. Great. Good to know. But it feels like the show has two main threads, and the twins' backstory is decidedly the weaker one. I certainly feel the concern that with only one episode left, the good thread won't get the attention it deserves.

The Jedi don't come away too badly. A little breaking and entering. A little lying. A little drawing lightsabers without provocation when Qimir isn't looking*. Mostly they're doing the right thing. Some of it even with high council backing. In a competent story this could present a nice conflict as it's fertile ground for enemy propaganda but kind of preposterous in an objective way. You could do something with that. The Acolyte unfortunately fixates on the Jedi guilt tripping themselves over trifles and being a tiny bit naughty to cover up their own failings. It feels a bit overdone for the half of them we've seen explored in enough detail beating themselves up for the next sixteen years. Especially for weird cultists who should have embraced the emotional detachment their cult teaches.

The power of many sucks. I get a cult talking up its beliefs, but a dozen or two witches dropping dead because a single Jedi breaks their mind control is all kinds of weak. If the cult sucks so bad, you have to wonder why they feel the need to hide. Or why anyone would persecute them.



* It's actually kind of a cute thought that Qimir was minding his own business all along and when he took Mae on, it was her who inspired him to go with the whole murder a Jedi barehanded thing.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/10 23:19:21


Post by: insaniak


 nels1031 wrote:
A Wookie with clothes is weird.

For what it's worth, that's not a design choice from this show specifically... Wookie jedi have been depicted in robes of some sort in various media for at least 20 years now.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/11 14:15:07


Post by: LunarSol


 Geifer wrote:
I don't know what to think. I'm either too tipsy or not tipsy enough to appreciate episode seven. But the balance is definitely off.


I'm 90% sure the entire issue with the show is that it wasn't scripted as a mystery but someone decided to try and make it one in editing.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/11 17:36:37


Post by: Geifer


Sounds plausible enough.

I'd just like to know what I'm even watching. One episode away from the end of the season, it doesn't feel like I have an idea where the show is going. It's kind of hard to describe, but it doesn't feel like the show set up enough of a story that is in need of resolution. Stuff just happens, is randomly resolved or not, then the next thing comes along, and so on. I don't know. I don't think I've watched a show before where I consistently didn't have anything to look forward to in the next episode. Weird stuff.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/11 21:07:13


Post by: LordofHats


 LunarSol wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
I don't know what to think. I'm either too tipsy or not tipsy enough to appreciate episode seven. But the balance is definitely off.


I'm 90% sure the entire issue with the show is that it wasn't scripted as a mystery but someone decided to try and make it one in editing.


I'm pretty convinced the show is actually 2 scripts that were jammed into 1.

You can almost see the lines now, where the Sith-maybe-guy plot was one thing, and the twins murder cult mystery plot was another thing, and at some point these two scripts were stapled together because someone decided they were similar enough but the stapling is very sloppy.

My hypothesis.

If there is one thing the series has done well, it's build a sense of mystery though. Like, all my complaints aside, I've never lost interest in wanting to know what the feth is going on. They tease the mystery well. It's the other parts of the mystery plot that don't quite come together.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 02:25:45


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


That was quite the finale!

Spoiler:
a pretty decent sub-light starship chase. An unsurprising revelation. Who is that mysterious manky old git hiding in the cave? Rampant Jedi corruption! Sweet cameo!


More please!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 02:44:30


Post by: insaniak


Yup, that was a satisfying conclusion.

Spoiler:
As seemed likely from the start, all of the Jedi exploration team are now dead, and there's no official confirmation that any Sith were involved, so all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over continuity breaking from the 'fanbase' was pointless.


Lurkyman is a bit of a mystery... Folk over on Twitter seem convinced it's Plagueis, but he looks more like a pale Duros than a Muun, so Plagueis only fits if they're going with a different species to the Legends version. This would also place Plagueis in the timeline too early compared to the original version.

None of which is a deal breaker given the new continuity, but I suspect it's going to turn out to be a new Sith Lord entirely, if we do get a second season.

Edit - actually, after looking at a few more pics of Plagueis, I'm leaning more towards this being him after all... He has considerably less nose than the normal Muun...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 03:05:01


Post by: nels1031


Could’ve been something good here, as its a compelling enough story in principle, but its so badly paced, performances so stilted and writing so amateurish that it might beat out Book of Boba Fett as the worst Star Wars show. At least that show was consistent when they disappointingly made Boba a somewhat pacifist crimelord.

Impressive how this show cost more($180million) than BoBF($105million) as well, and didn’t look nearly as good at any point, nor have nearly as much CGI.

Andor is getting a second season despite low viewership because it got near universal praise and good word of mouth after the fact. I don’t think this show will get that kind of goodwill, as the praise isn’t universally good, nor is word of mouth positive.

I do know that youtube doomwatchers would absolutely love a season 2 of this.







[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 03:44:20


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


I thought this came out on Wednesday? Ah well thanks for using spoiler tags guys!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 04:12:40


Post by: insaniak


It is Wednesday!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 04:29:38


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 insaniak wrote:
It is Wednesday!


Ack time zones my old nemesis!

(Currently in the US, living in the past when I'm used to living in the future)


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 09:26:35


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 nels1031 wrote:
Could’ve been something good here, as its a compelling enough story in principle, but its so badly paced, performances so stilted and writing so amateurish that it might beat out Book of Boba Fett as the worst Star Wars show. At least that show was consistent when they disappointingly made Boba a somewhat pacifist crimelord.

Impressive how this show cost more($180million) than BoBF($105million) as well, and didn’t look nearly as good at any point, nor have nearly as much CGI.

Andor is getting a second season despite low viewership because it got near universal praise and good word of mouth after the fact. I don’t think this show will get that kind of goodwill, as the praise isn’t universally good, nor is word of mouth positive.

I do know that youtube doomwatchers would absolutely love a season 2 of this.


Did….did we watch the same show?

As for YouTube doom watchers, when you’ve made moaning not just your entire personality, but a career (or are at least trying to), I’d have to question the veracity of their indignance. I mean, people are of course going to like, meh, love and hate different things. But when your shtick is “I’m trying it mane money by slagging something off”, there’s a really big incentive there to just…..slag things off.

I greatly enjoyed this show. Was it perfect? No, absolutely not. But it tells a coherent and interesting mystery tale. It delves into a world of self justified morals and arrogance. It starts to make good/bad of Light and Dark side users more blurred. Not exactly nuanced, no. But it is a study in self righteousness gon ]e awry.

Spoiler:
I really liked the final scenes, where Master Baldyslapheid reveals she knew all along about what happened, covered it up then, and continues to cover it up now, just straight up telling massive Porky Pies to the Senate.

Where do I think it could’ve been tighter? The Senator. I’ll need to binge watch, but I don’t recall him being in it much, possibly at all, in most of the episodes. But he provides some motivation for the Jedi behaviour, specifically external checks and balances on their power and independence. Not from an evil Sith cackle cackle, I’m gonna make everyone think you’re Richard’s approach. But a seemingly genuine “surely there must be some enforced limit to your shenanigans” concern.

I really enjoyed a lot of the Jedi being portrayed as a bit sloppy and indolent. I take that to be the result of decades, centuries possibly millennia of peace. From Master Baldyslapeheid’s pet Weasel, to Hotpie in the first episode. I know it’s not the done thing to poke fun at someone’s weight. But….I don’t think we’ve seen an overweight Jedi before? It all points to an Order too comfortable in its position, having seemingly gone largely unchallenged for a long time.

Finally? I absolutely loved not knowing what the end game might be. There was of course a time I didn’t know A New Hope had sequels. I specifically remember how I found out - but it’s such a long time ago, I can’t remember not knowing the events of those films. Prequels, Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance, everything else? We kinda know Good Guys Win, and who absolutely wasn’t snuffing it in those films.

Here, sure we know the Jedi Order goes on for at least another hundred or so years. But only one character, via the magic of rear view cameo, do we know the ultimate fate of. Mae, Qimir, Osha, Manky Old Cave Git? Who knows. Do any of them tie into Palpatine’s rise? Or are they just another Master/Apprentice out fiddling with things and of no particularly grand accomplishment once they’re bumped off/redeemed?

Like Andor, this is a pretty different lens to see the galaxy through. And I’m loving it.

As for audience reviews? Jump on Rotten Tomatoes and play “Spot The Bot”. They’re the one line, fraction of a star spam reviews.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 13:04:00


Post by: Gert


That was fine, nothing spectacular. It's something to watch which is par for the course with things these days.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 13:05:22


Post by: Slipspace


That was definitely a show that happened. Overall it was a pretty middling affair. Was just about good enough to entice me back each week, but not nearly good enough for me to particularly enthused about it. It's not exactly BoBF but it's a long way short of the better SW streaming shows.

Spoiler:

My biggest problem remains the fact this feels like 2 different shows stitched together, as someone else mentioned ITT. You've got the "mystery" of the twins and you've got the Sith dude and they seem fairly disconnected despite attempts to link the two storylines. Annoyingly, the Sith dude is by far the most engaging part of the show to me, yet they tried to make it all about the mystery of the twins.

The mystery on Brendok was not really much of a mystery and the handling of it still feels really off to me. There's no nuance to any of it, which makes the attempt to present it from different viewpoints for different characters feel unearned. The coven are just kind of flat-out evil, despite some desultory attempts at blurring those lines. The actions of the Jedi during the incident don't seem extreme enough to lead to the various things that result. Maybe it's the pacing, with flashbacks breaking things up too much, but I fundamentally didn't feel particularly bothered about the twins at any point either. They don't really get enough character development and are a bit too 2-dimensional, so the reconciliation at the end fell quite flat for me. It is at least somewhat interesting that they had Osha fall at the end, which shows some promise for a second season, provided they stay away from the way-overdone "conflicted darksider" approach.

I'm fairly sure the shadowy figure was Plagueis, but that felt like it was put there purely as a cheap trick to generate speculation.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 13:20:22


Post by: LunarSol


Definitely a mixed bag. The wuxia fight is absolutely up there and despite it being a little clunky:

Spoiler:

This might be the best live action dark side turn we've seen complete with Kyber bleed!

Granted, it doesn't have any real competition, but... progress?


I thought they might land it but then we get into all wrap up which is very messy at best. Cover up is solid enough and but then:

Spoiler:

The mind wipe is complete nonsense and doesn't make any sense. This comes out of nowhere and just eats every sin of the show. Mae admits to starting the fire that's the whole reason her mom went smoke monster which caused Sol to panic and kill her which is why Osha goes evil. Leaving her behind is just a trail for no reason but season 2 and doesn't have any need to actually happen. Even if you believe strongly in the rule of 2 the whole point of the show apparently is they count as 1 so.... like.... don't be such a stickler for the rules Sith?


Ultimately this is some of my favorite Star Wars content and in particular some of my favorite Force ideas I've seen in years, but the show itself is very messy and constantly fumbles things. I love the vibes here but I'd love to see a better show set in this era.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 13:48:17


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On your second point?

Spoiler:
I figured it was a KOTOR type thing, doing a Revan?


Not necessarily terribly successful, but I think that’s what they were going for. Plus

Spoiler:
Its another chance for Jedi to be awful by manipulating an amnesiac Mae


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 14:11:20


Post by: LunarSol


I made the same connections, but there's no reason for the characters involved to do the things they did. It's a really bizarre, unmotivated way to wrap things up.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 14:16:09


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


We are now left with a deeper mystery.

Spoiler:
Manky Old Cave Git. Who am, and what do? Is are even a Sith?

Qimir - believed dead by Master Baldyslapheid. But…who actually is he? Is it someone she believes she killed? A former Padawan, or has he always been Sith?

I quite like the feeling that the relatively small scale of events here, nothing galaxy shaking, that Mae and OSHA’s experiences are the first canker to appear of an underlying sickness, one at least Master Baldyslapheid, for reasons yet to be explained, is determined to cover up.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 14:29:08


Post by: LunarSol


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We are now left with a deeper mystery.

Spoiler:
Manky Old Cave Git. Who am, and what do? Is are even a Sith?

Qimir - believed dead by Master Baldyslapheid. But…who actually is he? Is it someone she believes she killed? A former Padawan, or has he always been Sith?

I quite like the feeling that the relatively small scale of events here, nothing galaxy shaking, that Mae and OSHA’s experiences are the first canker to appear of an underlying sickness, one at least Master Baldyslapheid, for reasons yet to be explained, is determined to cover up.


Spoiler:

100% Plagueis. I don't think its even a question. This is how he learns to create life with the Force, teaches Palpatine and creates Anakin. Actually disappointed now that we didn't get this as the Rey answer (though I don't think we needed a Rey answer....)

Green Jedi lady tells Mae she needs help finding a former pupil who turned to evil. Absolutely a former padawan. What happened is certainly a question. He's got lashes across his back and she wields a lightwhip. Connection there seems obvious.

I assume she's determined to cover it up because she's aware how dangerous a Jedi who loses control can be.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 14:39:31


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Yet she’s a proven liar already, so anything she says must be taken with a pinch of salt.

Not even “certain point of view”. Just outright porky pies.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 15:09:34


Post by: LunarSol


I don't think any of that is a lie though. I'm guessing she's at fault for what happened with Qimir, but I don't think she's fabricating a history with him. Most of what she says seems to confirm what we could already infer.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 15:18:33


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It’s
Spoiler:
what she told the Senate Committee. And she clearly held Sol cover up the preceding events.

That’s a conscious decision, and we can only guess at why - but it seems likely she’s done at least as bad, if not outright worse. Or knows this is surprisingly rife within the Jedi Order.


For me, I think they pulled off wrapping up this season’s tale, whilst leaving just enough dangling threads of interest to weave into hopefully subsequent season or seasons.

Importantly, whilst I’ve enjoyed this more than others, I don’t think it’s been anywhere enough of a bum note to endanger future tales. Where it’s lacking can be tightened up with just a bit of spit and polish.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 15:28:40


Post by: Gert


Disney will make more shows regardless. It's Star Wars, it's literally too big to fail.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 15:41:33


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’m absolutely tickled that after all the faux outrage about “woke”?

The only thing even approaching “woke” was the suggestion of two women possibly being in a romantic relationship.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 16:07:54


Post by: Ahtman


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m absolutely tickled that after all the faux outrage about “woke”?

The only thing even approaching “woke” was the suggestion of two women possibly being in a romantic relationship.


The majority of the criticism I have seen regarding the series had nothing to do with "woke". I have no doubt that some have done it but it also feels a bit like when some people treated any criticism of Ghostbusters (2016) or ST: Discovery as misogynistic or bigoted when both had legitimate narrative and character issues.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 16:13:00


Post by: Gert


MDG is referring to what was said about the show long before it came out.

A cast of mostly non-white actors with a lot of female leads was announced just after the nonsense with the sequel trilogy caused the outrage brigade to poop their collective pants.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 16:13:22


Post by: Slipspace


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m absolutely tickled that after all the faux outrage about “woke”?

The only thing even approaching “woke” was the suggestion of two women possibly being in a romantic relationship.

You can safely ignore anybody who cries about anything being "woke".

It's true that several things that have been accused of being woke have indeed been terrible, but almost always as a result of bad writing rather than "going woke". That said, I don't think I saw any criticism of The Acolyte because of it being woke. I'm sure that criticism existed somewhere, but almost all of the criticism I've seen has been down to legitimate writing issues.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 16:16:57


Post by: LunarSol


It's like a lot of those. There was a lot of it pre-release that and stupid review bombing and what not.

I will say, for whatever reason, this one seemed to separate more quickly into real and fake criticism. It was a lot easier to discuss than prior nonsense with people being more accepting of its strengths as well as its many weaknesses.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 16:33:49


Post by: Grey Templar


Slipspace wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m absolutely tickled that after all the faux outrage about “woke”?

The only thing even approaching “woke” was the suggestion of two women possibly being in a romantic relationship.

You can safely ignore anybody who cries about anything being "woke".

It's true that several things that have been accused of being woke have indeed been terrible, but almost always as a result of bad writing rather than "going woke". That said, I don't think I saw any criticism of The Acolyte because of it being woke. I'm sure that criticism existed somewhere, but almost all of the criticism I've seen has been down to legitimate writing issues.


Its because the two go together.

Woke stuff has basically been universally badly written at this point, not just Star Wars. So if a show has signs of Woke in it people are rightfully associating that it will be bad. Correlation is not causation of course, but it is the exception rather than the rule for a woke show to be actually decent. You cannot blame people for following their gut reactions.

Basically, the people who push Woke agendas are universally terrible writers. So avoiding what they write is a good rule of thumb. IMO it is directly related, because including Woke things is about checking boxes in a corporate board room not hiring someone who actually has experience and skill. The current batch of writers and directors at Disney are motivated by woke agenda, they got rid of most of the skilled writers and directors that used to work there and hired younger(IE: inexperienced and unskilled) people who fit the agenda.

So yes, bad writing and woke are not the same thing, but they are inextricably linked at this point.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 16:42:16


Post by: Gert


Nvm.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 19:47:19


Post by: ZergSmasher


I'm overall disappointed with The Acolyte. The writing was subpar to say the least, and a lot of the acting, with the exception of Lee Jung-Jae, was fairly wooden. I enjoyed a bit of the world-building, seeing the galaxy a hundred years before The Phantom Menace and everything, and some of the new ship designs (and yet more species of Jedi) were cool to see. I personally didn't think we needed any potential backstory or explanation that might relate to how Anakin was born without a father; I'd have preferred that to remain mysterious, just like Yoda's home planet and the name of his species. The whole "woke agenda" stuff might have been a bit overblown, but it was definitely there, as it felt like the casting and writing was ticking off boxes more than finding actual talent or telling a coherent story. This is mostly why I actually do rate this show below Book of Boba. I at least enjoyed that show even if it was kind of silly. The Acolyte just mostly left me scratching my head and wondering what the hell I just watched. If others enjoyed it, more power to them, different strokes and all that.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/17 20:41:59


Post by: Geifer


The final episode was fun again. Not without issues, but at least we're back to getting some quality Qimir action. As we should. We deserve good things.

Spoiler:
I really, seriously don't get the mind wipe thing though. What was even the reasoning behind that? Felt completely random.


 ZergSmasher wrote:
The Acolyte just mostly left me scratching my head and wondering what the hell I just watched.


I think that's where I am. I can appreciate the show's ideas, but not the implementation thereof. Maybe watching it again in one go now that I'm familiar with it may improve things, but the show is just such a mess.

On the bright side, good ideas and dodgy implementation still makes The Acolyte far superior to the sequel trilogy and Obi-Wan. That's something.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/18 09:57:40


Post by: trexmeyer


Slipspace wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m absolutely tickled that after all the faux outrage about “woke”?

The only thing even approaching “woke” was the suggestion of two women possibly being in a romantic relationship.

You can safely ignore anybody who cries about anything being "woke".

It's true that several things that have been accused of being woke have indeed been terrible, but almost always as a result of bad writing rather than "going woke". That said, I don't think I saw any criticism of The Acolyte because of it being woke. I'm sure that criticism existed somewhere, but almost all of the criticism I've seen has been down to legitimate writing issues.


Exactly.

Pretty much all live-action Star Wars since ROTJ has been mediocre at best and it has never been due to it being 'woke.'
Woke almost makes no sense in the context of Star Wars where force-users throughout official canon and legends have consistently stomped on everyone else and have had excessive influence on galactic matters.

Yoda is a green midget with zero muscle mass and a bad accent. He's a beloved character. He's one of the most influential characters throughout the first two trilogies.
Seriously, the anti-woke crowd tolerated this infantile creature doing flips all over Count Dooku's head, but a black woman being force-sensitive is too far?
Yes, I'm being slightly facetious, but that's how absurd the arguments look to me in the context of this universe.

Side note, all real world politics end up a bit absurd in the context of Star Wars.
Spoiler:

The Galactic Empire was originally depicted as being all humans and almost all white males.
You're really trying to tell me there are enough speciest, sexist, racist white males in that galaxy to take it over?
That's far more absurd than any 'woke' elements that have been introduced in the last 10 years.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/18 18:56:53


Post by: The_Real_Chris


I do miss that old empire :( It was like the guys in charge of my organization took over the galaxy.

Otherwise - good Gods where does the money go?! The series cost that much to make? How? Why?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/18 20:39:49


Post by: insaniak


Big cast, lots of special effects, some pretty massive sets, and wasn't early production happening when all the Covid shenanigans started? That pushed up the cost of pretty much everything that was in progress at the time.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/18 20:51:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Also design work on the ships and uniforms etc. Being the first live media set in this part of the franchise, they couldn’t just use existing digital assets.

Speaking of which. I found the ships a wee bit lacklustre.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/18 22:05:18


Post by: insaniak


I'm disappointed we didn't see more of the Vector. The two-part shuttle they were gadding about in for most of the show didn't really do it for me.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/18 22:09:31


Post by: Overread


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also design work on the ships and uniforms etc. Being the first live media set in this part of the franchise, they couldn’t just use existing digital assets.

Speaking of which. I found the ships a wee bit lacklustre.


That might be similar to how Picard series had to copy-paste the same ship over and over for their end battle at the 1st season but by the 3rd they had lots of assets.

It's an issue when a show wants to start big or follow a big franchise but still has to run with the limits of being just season 1 and having to start everything from scratch. Compared to a show that grows from a small point and organically adds more and more over the years (of course they can hit the issue that what they develop ends up "old style" and either they have to spend a lot making big tech jumps later or stick to older tech and be "retro" as the years go on)


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/18 22:25:48


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Ship wise? They just weren’t quite Star Wars distinctive enough, perhaps a bit spindly looking?

Now, different era = different designs aside? Contrast them with Luthen Rael’s ship from Andor. That absolutely screamed Star Wars to me, whilst also managing to stand out as a novel design.

The multi-part ability of the Jedi ship was cool, but the design didn’t quite land for me.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 00:48:50


Post by: Gitzbitah


The Razorcrest did the same for Mandalorian.

I do think it played in to one of the overriding themes of the show, which was general Jedi incompetence. Not that they were ill intentioned, but it seemed like they were working with poorly maintained, likely generally available ships at this point in the timeline. Much like the uniforms... they were aggressively unimpressive.

I thought one of the best touches, costuming wise, was Sol and Indara being perpetually in gloves- quite literally emulating Indara's hands off approach.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 01:43:20


Post by: Bran Dawri


I dunno. Given that shows like Arcane, CW era Ahsoka, early GoT, Castlevania, and more were all pretty much loved by audiences despite (in the context of the discussion) having plenty of strong female characters tells me that there is something to the notion that the main issue is bad writing, not stronk wahmen bad.

Sure there are basement dwellers like that (and they're not only getting louder, they're gaining traction. It's almost as if dismissing genuine concerns and critiques as reactionary and X-ist serves only to alienate people and drives them straight into the arms of the group you don't want), and while woke preaching is very often a sign of bad writing, not all bad writing is woke, nor all woke writing bad.

And if anything Star Wars is known for having lots of aliens. The reason most main characters were white humans is be ause at the time that was who the show for and the writers wantedcharacters the audience could identify with.
Saying that means white mysongonist xenophobes were in charge of the galaxy is kind of disingenuous when Star Wars (and Trek probably moreso) with all its weird alien people are one of the reasons we now pretty much universally accept that the main character needn't have (well, except apparently for ideologue writers) a close resemblance to the target audience.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 07:00:23


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


In an effort to learn the ship names, found a YouTube video released early on in the run.

And there are ships I’d forgotten about.

The Prison Transport? Lovely design.

Trade Federation Ship Osha worked on? Lovely design.

Both very recognisable as Star Wars.

But the Jedi Transport? I dunno. It just looks like a Winnebago. A chunky, lumbering bit of kit which my mind just can’t associate with the Jedi Order. Its modular style does work as a concept.

Qimir’s ship? The twin cockpits seem alright, but overall it just doesn’t look up to much. Have I’d have a stronger and more settled opinion if we’d seen more of it, particularly in action.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 07:44:24


Post by: Slipspace


I think the ships have lost their quirkiness from the OT and the prequel trilogy. The recent series have shown us ships that feel a bit more "realistic" from an in-universe point of view but they mostly lack character.

Take the OT, for example. There's no good reason for the X-Wing wings to open, but it looks cool. Same with the B-Wing's weird design that would be absolutely terrible in the real world. Or consider TIE Fighters with no visibility to the sides. These are all objectively stupid designs, but they're also unique and memorable. Colour also plays a part. So many of the recent ships have been various shades of brown and grey. There's really nothing to latch onto as a viewer.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 09:30:15


Post by: grahamdbailey


This was genuinely some of the worst SW I've ever watch. A remake of the Holiday Special with Jar Jar as the lead character would still be better than this hot garbage. So much makes no sense, the writing is appalling and, for the most part, the acting is woeful.

I'm glad some of you enjoyed it, but I can't fathom how!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 10:06:48


Post by: insaniak


For my own sanity, I'm just going to assume from here on out that anyone claiming any modern Star Wars production is worse than the Holiday Special hasn't actually seen the Holiday Special. I get that different people have different opinions, and I love hyperbole at much as the next billion people... But it's such a ridiculous comparison that it immediately makes it impossible to take any accompanying commentary seriously.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 10:31:40


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It feels like the modern phenomena of anything not considered say, 9/10 is therefore 1/10.

The Acolyte? I’d say a comfortable 7/10 at worst. It ain’t perfect, but it held my interest, introduced the odd interesting twist.

I’ve not a lot on in the coming weeks, so will put a day aside to binge the whole of the thing.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 10:47:30


Post by: grahamdbailey


 insaniak wrote:
For my own sanity, I'm just going to assume from here on out that anyone claiming any modern Star Wars production is worse than the Holiday Special hasn't actually seen the Holiday Special. I get that different people have different opinions, and I love hyperbole at much as the next billion people... But it's such a ridiculous comparison that it immediately makes it impossible to take any accompanying commentary seriously.


Oh, I've seen the Holiday Special!
And yes, I'm being a tad hyperbolic, but I still really struggle with The Acolyte. The wooden acting, the appalling writing, the poor charaacters, the nonsense, gaping plot holes, they all really grated.
I wanted to enjoy this show, it has so much potential on offer, and that maybe why I've got issues. I went in with low expectaions after other Disney offerings, and these weren't even reached.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 11:00:00


Post by: insaniak


grahamdbailey wrote:
. The wooden acting, the appalling writing, the poor charaacters, the nonsense, gaping plot holes,

I mean, that could also describe all three of the prequels and at least half of Return of the Jedi... But like the Acolyte, they're entertaining enough if you don't try to take them too seriously.



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 12:36:22


Post by: Geifer


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But the Jedi Transport? I dunno. It just looks like a Winnebago. A chunky, lumbering bit of kit which my mind just can’t associate with the Jedi Order. Its modular style does work as a concept.


I can't say I've paid attention to the ships and so I don't have much of an opinion on coolness, but the transport seems to fulfill its function* in the context of what's shown in the show. Jedi travel in packs. Jedi go on camping trips and do their own scientific expeditions. They kidnap lots of kids, and it may just be more economic to make a pickup round with a single ship. Jedi are not subject to outside oversight, so there's really nothing to stop them from keeping all sorts of ships and not hire out bulk freight contracts when they can just ferry stuff around themselves.

Plus, in an era of peace there's little need for military considerations. Chunky and lumbering is fine if it offers other benefits.




* I'm not claiming that the ship actually functions. It broke like clockwork at the most inconvenient time for no reason whatsoever**. But you know, might have sounded good to the Jedi from reading the brochure.

** Star Trek writers in days of yore at least tried to explain why the really convenient miracle technologies fail so often when they're writing a little drama into their scripts. The guys responsible for The Acolyte didn't even try.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 15:07:12


Post by: Ahtman


Saw the comment that the Acolyte made a bad series but would have made a great movie. They seemed to think stretching it out worked against it but that if it were more compact and efficient in its storytelling it would have been better for the story being presented.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 15:29:50


Post by: LunarSol


 Ahtman wrote:
Saw the comment that the Acolyte made a bad series but would have made a great movie. They seemed to think stretching it out worked against it but that if it were more compact and efficient in its storytelling it would have been better for the story being presented.


This has been a reoccurring issue with the Disney+ shows. Some of them were legitimately film scripts before the launch of Disney+ had them expanded out to a film (Kenobi and Boba being part of the abandoned "A Star Wars Story" series). I'm not sure the content of this one has the same should have been a film issues as those two, but I think it shares a similar issue in how its edited. It's very strangely put together, where the mix of being a 4 hour film and being 8 individual episodes really messes with the plot structure. Like story beats get put in the wrong place because a single episode would be lacking but it breaks up the impact of reveals and just creates a disjointed story. I think most of the Marvel/Star Wars projects really suffer from this in one form or another, with the best of them being stuff that for one reason or another demanded more episodic storytelling (WandaVision/Mandalorian).


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 19:03:02


Post by: Lord Damocles


It sure is lucky that nobody ever questioned little gopher guy, since he knows all about the Sith that the Jedi are covering up for no logical reason...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/19 20:46:08


Post by: insaniak


 Lord Damocles wrote:
It sure is lucky that nobody ever questioned little gopher guy, since he knows all about the Sith that the Jedi are covering up for no logical reason...

Does he, though? Bazil was off in the forest by himself during the fight. He didn't see any of it.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 05:35:55


Post by: AduroT





[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 08:57:55


Post by: LordofHats


The long silence was the best part. Like the guy who just repeats the same 6ish jokes couldn't think of any way to make fun of that part except by just letting it be its own joke.

That and the poor communication kills jokes.

Though, thinking about it, I think I agree with him. If the story had been told chronologically and not with flashback episodes, I think it would have flowed better?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 10:23:47


Post by: Gert


Flashbacks are fine if it isn't half the run time and then like a whole other episode. It's the one part of Andor that I didn't like, the flashbacks to his Lord of the Flies childhood that I'm still not sure explains anything apart from "Cassian is from here and got picked up by scavengers".

Maybe it would have ruined the mystery aspect but seeing as the "mystery" was "who's the master", that still would have worked IMO.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 10:46:46


Post by: MarkNorfolk


Saw the Pitch Meeting... so now I don't have to watch the show.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 10:49:55


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Flashbacks are necessary though, as this is a mystery show.

In the first episode we learn they’re twins. Then something of Mae’s motivations. From there we get the “certain point of view” background, big fight, “and here’s what really happened” then resolution.

Could the flashbacks have been done better? Possibly? Probably? I enjoyed what’s there already so struggling to be subjective on that count. But some level of flashback was necessary for the tone and aim of the show.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 14:15:34


Post by: LunarSol


The flashback scenes are absolutely necessary but they're not implemented well. Especially true of the second one whose framing device is entirely in the prior episode. I've said before that I kind of feel like the mystery aspect was added in the editing room and.... maybe...

Ultimately I feel like the crux of the problem is trying to make a story where the Jedi don't come across as the villains but we still end up empathizing with Osha. Our perspective makes it very hard to side with anyone and in trying to create a tragic misunderstanding we kind of ended up with a ton of contrived scenarios that can't quite sell us on anyone's motives.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 14:34:26


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Gert wrote:
Flashbacks are fine if it isn't half the run time and then like a whole other episode. It's the one part of Andor that I didn't like, the flashbacks to his Lord of the Flies childhood that I'm still not sure explains anything apart from "Cassian is from here and got picked up by scavengers".


The flashback is to show that the Republic was already stepping into fascism. When Andor's adoptive parents take him because they say he'll be shot on sight, it isn't storm troopers of the Empire they're talking about, it is soldiers of the Republic. The events that happened on that planet were not the Empire, they were the Republic. It is to show that the rot that allowed fascism to grow was already long established before it bloomed.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 14:35:25


Post by: Geifer


That was a great Pitch Meeting.

When it comes to flashbacks (or equivalents), I'm getting the impression that the full episode format doesn't work for a lot of people. It feels similar to how there is plenty of criticism of Phantom Menace just because it deprived the prequel trilogy of a third of the time it could have spent on Anakin and Obi-Wan adventures, as in things the audience actually cared about. That used to get brought up frequently. I'm getting much the same impression from The Acolyte.

The way back when stuff is important to the story, but the different angles to make it a mystery or whatever basically doubles the time we spend seeing the same events. Shorter narrative episodes sprinkled in when a character explains their point of view would probably serve the story better than two full episodes somewhat randomly shoved into the series.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 14:40:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Flashbacks are fine if it isn't half the run time and then like a whole other episode. It's the one part of Andor that I didn't like, the flashbacks to his Lord of the Flies childhood that I'm still not sure explains anything apart from "Cassian is from here and got picked up by scavengers".


The flashback is to show that the Republic was already stepping into fascism. When Andor's adoptive parents take him because they say he'll be shot on sight, it isn't storm troopers of the Empire they're talking about, it is soldiers of the Republic. The events that happened on that planet were not the Empire, they were the Republic. It is to show that the rot that allowed fascism to grow was already long established before it bloomed.


It also reinforces that for likely a fair chunk of the wider Rebellion? Those fighting The Empire were doing so with the end scenario of their planet Being Left The Heck Alone.

This leads up to the post-Endor/Jakku decision to make the New Republic an option. And so, in a sense? The separatists absolutely won the Clone Wars eventually.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 16:20:04


Post by: Slipspace


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Flashbacks are necessary though, as this is a mystery show.

They're necessary for this mystery show, yes. That said, the problem isn't really with the fact they have flashbacks, it's that they take up 25% of the total runtime of the show. Even worse, the flashbacks are both full episodes, which leads to the big problems I have with the show's pacing. The second flashback episode was better, IMO, but was marred by the fact it was retreading a lot of the first flashback episode.

Then you have the way things just isn't explained in the second flashback, revealing that the first flashback was just badly written. There's no explanation of why the fire spread so quickly, so that just seems dumb. Qimir is not explained at all, despite various ominous portents (tm) about who he is. As the Pitch Meeting points out, the revelations about what happened between the mother and Sol are purely down to not actually communicating, but in a way that feels contrived to allow the plot to happen rather than for any logical reason.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 17:08:34


Post by: Gert


I'm more arguing that Acolyte would have been better if it started with Osha's POV of the events in the flashback and then had the other POVs added later on.

It would have introduced everyone and got rid of the pointless "oooh maybe this one's the baddie" which IMO was just a waste of time.
Just because the audience knows it isn't here, doesn't mean the characters have to and honestly it would have been better to show the lie that had been spun to the order play out when we know its a lie.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 17:48:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


See I liked the ambiguity. As with the overall mystery that’s not to say it was perfectly done. But, as someone in an odd dichotomy where I remember not knowing Star Wars had sequels, but also not recalling clearly a time when I really didn’t know what those films portrayed?

The Acolyte remains a breath, perhaps a gasp, of fresh air. None of our players are remembered into the prequel era. And so whilst of course being a story someone was gonna get Plot Armour, episode to episode there was no way to tell who the beneficiary was.

It could’ve been done better. But let’s be equally honest and admit at worst, this was just sort of middling. Because of this is something you genuinely consider to be garbage TV? Boy, do I have a couple of universes worth of utter, abject, god awful, kitten wee weak of TV to show you.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 18:58:33


Post by: Gert


I never called it garbage, I just think there was a much better way to run this.

The fact that Osha wasn't the assassin was obvious from the first episode. Actually wasn't it like explicitly shown in the first episode?
Maybe I'm misremembering but it was a weak attempt to drive a mystery when "How did the twin survive?" and "Whos the mysterious baddy?" are enough.
The fact that one dude offed himself and it took until like the semi-final episode to resolve that was worse.
It was like the writers went "how many useless side mysteries can we randomly throw in just for fun?" and nobody told them to cut it out.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 19:04:56


Post by: LunarSol


 Gert wrote:
I'm more arguing that Acolyte would have been better if it started with Osha's POV of the events in the flashback and then had the other POVs added later on.

It would have introduced everyone and got rid of the pointless "oooh maybe this one's the baddie" which IMO was just a waste of time.
Just because the audience knows it isn't here, doesn't mean the characters have to and honestly it would have been better to show the lie that had been spun to the order play out when we know its a lie.


There's a lot of general perspective problems. The show kind of wants to split between Mae and Osha's perspectives, but also Sol. Not impossible, but you have to write the puzzle in a way that requires all 3. I think you're probably right that if they had focused on the twins as the dual perspectives it would have worked better.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/26 19:08:18


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Gert wrote:
I never called it garbage, I just think there was a much better way to run this.


Apologies, wasn’t intended as a personal comment/response, more a general one.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/31 18:36:53


Post by: Grimskul


That last pic gives me Spy Kid vibes, which isn't exactly a great thing.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/31 18:38:34


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’ll give it a fair shake, but I’m suspecting I’m not the target audience.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/31 19:35:17


Post by: pgmason


I'd somehow managed to avoid knowing anything at all about this other than that Jude Law was in it. It looks like a Star Wars take on The Goonies, ET or Stranger Things, right down to the kids with bikes and walkie-talkies.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/31 19:45:21


Post by: Ahtman


 Grimskul wrote:
That last pic gives me Spy Kid vibes, which isn't exactly a great thing.


How about An Ewok Adventure than?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/31 20:07:07


Post by: Grimskul


 Ahtman wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
That last pic gives me Spy Kid vibes, which isn't exactly a great thing.


How about An Ewok Adventure than?


Hmmmmm, only the kids make the mistake of feeding an Ewok past midnight and it starts eating them one by one.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/31 21:35:58


Post by: LordofHats


Are those Geordi glasses XD


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/07/31 21:45:28


Post by: insaniak


Mini Rebo is the best thing since Baby Yoda, and those speederbikes are brilliant.

I expect my daughters will love this one.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
Are those Geordi glasses XD

Probably, although they look like they have at least been designed so that the actress can still see through them.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/01 07:23:06


Post by: Geifer


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ll give it a fair shake, but I’m suspecting I’m not the target audience.


I guess it depends if it's a full blown kids' show or if they integrate stuff that's interesting to adult Star Wars fans alongside stuff for younger audiences.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/10 04:05:01


Post by: Grimskul


Looks like the first official trailer is out for Skeleton Crew:




I think some of the comments summed it up well as it coming off like Goonies in space, which as a premise isn't terrible by itself but I don't trust Disney with the execution given how they handled Kenobi, Ahsoka, and more recently The Acolyte.





[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/10 04:14:24


Post by: bbb


I expected to not be interested, but the trailer has me curious. The glimpse of a normal life for a core or inner rim world was something I don't recall seeing much of before. So, this might be something I actually try to watch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
I think some of the comments summed it up well as it coming off like Goonies in space, which as a premise isn't terrible by itself but I don't trust Disney with the execution given how they handled Kenobi, Ahsoka, and more recently The Acolyte.


I'm hoping this has overall significance than the events/characters in The Acolyte (didn't watch any of it) were supposed to have. These are supposed to be all new characters? That might be a nice changed from trying to toy around with established characters like Obi Won (didn't watch any of it) or Ahsoka (didn't watch any of it).


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/10 04:33:49


Post by: Grimskul


 bbb wrote:
I expected to not be interested, but the trailer has me curious. The glimpse of a normal life for a core or inner rim world was something I don't recall seeing much of before. So, this might be something I actually try to watch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
I think some of the comments summed it up well as it coming off like Goonies in space, which as a premise isn't terrible by itself but I don't trust Disney with the execution given how they handled Kenobi, Ahsoka, and more recently The Acolyte.


I'm hoping this has overall significance than the events/characters in The Acolyte (didn't watch any of it) were supposed to have. These are supposed to be all new characters? That might be a nice changed from trying to toy around with established characters like Obi Won (didn't watch any of it) or Ahsoka (didn't watch any of it).


Yeah, honestly having something completely new without it being another case of Star Wars Street would be nice, but even the Acolyte that was supposedly trying to break that mold failed at the very end with the clear member berry bait of Plagueis and Yoda being teased at the end, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of cameo or connection to the larger post ROTJ universe since it feels like they can't help themselves.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/10 12:15:18


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’m more enthused for Skellington Crew now.

I still accept I’m not its target audience, but that trailer suggests there should be enough for me to enjoy as an adult. And I agree a look a Star Wars suburban life is at least something we’ve not seen before.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/10 15:46:32


Post by: tauist


Skeleton Crew doesn't look all that far off from the other recent SW franchise series. Yall are forgetting that Star Wars was always meant for children - even the very fist ones are family movies. Stuff like Andor and Rogue One are the exception, not the rule



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/10 16:26:09


Post by: Gert


 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, honestly having something completely new without it being another case of Star Wars Street would be nice, but even the Acolyte that was supposedly trying to break that mold failed at the very end with the clear member berry bait of Plagueis and Yoda being teased at the end, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of cameo or connection to the larger post ROTJ universe since it feels like they can't help themselves.

Is Yoda "memberberries" when the dude is like a core character to the franchise and is more recognisable than anyone except maybe Vader? How can it be nostalgic when the dude never stopped being there?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/10 16:27:51


Post by: Jadenim


 bbb wrote:
I expected to not be interested, but the trailer has me curious. The glimpse of a normal life for a core or inner rim world was something I don't recall seeing much of before. So, this might be something I actually try to watch.


This is pretty much my reaction, fingers crossed this is as light hearted and fun as it looks.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/16 23:55:44


Post by: Grimskul


Surprised this hasn't come up in one of the threads yet and we don't have a general
"Disney" thread, but given that the majority of SW shows are on Disney plus, it's probably a good heads up to those who are currently signed up to Disney plus to see how far Disney is reaching with those terms of agreements you sign even for when it's not relevant to Disney plus directly:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MauLer/comments/1es4mpp/disney_are_like_comically_evil_at_this_point_in/

I know we have some Disney diehards on the forum, but would you actually die for Disney? That's the reaaaaaal question.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/17 00:37:16


Post by: Overread


From what I can gather that article is a bit hyperbole. The clause/contract he signed up for when visiting the restaurant is the SAME one that's in Disney+. Or at least the part relevant to Disney's legal position in this.

It also seems like Disney are distancing themselves from the Restaurant itself which is a separately run entity within the Park.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/17 07:47:00


Post by: Bran Dawri


I kinda doubt a clause like that is legally enforcable. Or at least I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be in the EU. In the corporate dystopia otherwise known as the US, I'm less confident though.

Plus I really doubt they make anyone who enters the restaurant read and agree to a contract...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/17 08:16:47


Post by: Overread


Bran Dawri wrote:
I kinda doubt a clause like that is legally enforcable. Or at least I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be in the EU. In the corporate dystopia otherwise known as the US, I'm less confident though.

Plus I really doubt they make anyone who enters the restaurant read and agree to a contract...


It's more that to access the 3rd party managed restaurant you have to have a Ticket for the Park and within the purchase of that ticket is where you sign the agreement.

Disney aren't stopping the family suing the restaurant, just themselves. Which honestly sounds about fair since it was the staff and restaurant operation that failed the family directly; if they are anything like catering firms in many other event sites these days, then they are basically fully a private firm paying rent to be there.

I think about the only way Disney might end up being involved is if the restaurant can prove that the failure on their part was as a direct result of conditions placed upon them by Disney.




[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 03:19:36


Post by: Bran Dawri


Sure, but then why doesn't Disney just argue that?
(Plus the legally enforcable thing still stands.)


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 03:31:26


Post by: LordofHats


Bran Dawri wrote:
Sure, but then why doesn't Disney just argue that?
(Plus the legally enforcable thing still stands.)


From what I read that is what they argued.

Notice the reports about this mostly quote the plaintiff and the plaintiff's lawyer, who seem to be misrepresenting what Disney's filing argues to advance their own position in the public eye. For them its a smart move. For Disney its a PR fuckup because they probably should have seen it coming and gotten ahead of it by very publicly emphasizing the restaurant isn't theirs. Their filing was apparently more expansive than this one issue (legal filings can be like long bullet pointed lists covering lots of banalities, of which this was one), but the press has focused on this singular part of the filing.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 04:46:09


Post by: insaniak


While this is an interesting topic for discussion, it would probably be better off in its own thread in the regular OT section, rather than in the Star Wars series discussion thread.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 12:55:41


Post by: ingtaer


The teaser trailer for Mando and Grogu was interesting, trying to hit so many nostalgia buttons. Zeb flying a razorcrest, Mando on an At-RT etc. but a complete absence of the whole new Mando culture was a shock.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 12:58:21


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Is that available on YouTube?


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 13:00:59


Post by: ingtaer


It was, will see if I can find a link, someone filmed it off their phone from some recent con so it may have been killed...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 13:02:49


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Cool beans


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 13:14:12


Post by: ingtaer


A quick look on my phone doesn't bring it up, the original was nuked. Though the Andor season 2 preview can still be seen here- https://www.reddit.com/r/andor/comments/1eojjlp/season_2_leaked_trailer_from_d23/?share_id=i1hWIit5iZi6dWH_1ie-d&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1&rdt=44417


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Best I can find is this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMT0gJTb19s

It shows quite a few stills from the leaked trailer but loads of waffling crap too.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 13:31:46


Post by: tauist


Andor S2 sounds like something worth watching is finally coming! Great stuff


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 13:55:43


Post by: Bonegrinder


Not the biggest Star Wars fan out (loved the original trilogy, Mandalorian, Dark Forces etc)

But Andor is a fantastic spy thriller in it's own right. Stellan Skarsgård's monologue about sacrifice was the highlight of the show!


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/18 16:35:03


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Andor is definitely the peak right now. As you say, as well as being Star Wars, it works as its own thing, which will bring a wider audience.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 00:11:05


Post by: nels1031


Let’s check in on some ‘The Acolye’ season 2 news :

‘The Acolyte’ Is Dead: ‘Star Wars’ Series Won’t Return for Season 2

https://variety.com/2024/tv/news/the-acolyte-canceled-season-2-star-wars-1236111608/

The news comes at once as a shock, given how much of the Season 1 finale ended on a cliffhanger and teased several plotlines for a Season 2, and not much of a surprise, given the wildly opposing reception from fans and the less-than-robust viewership that appeared to drop off after the series premiere in June.


From another article :

(Regarding starting strong, but collapsing in epic fashion after Ep. 3) But The Acolyte could not sustain the momentum, dropping out of the Top 10 in Week 3 and staying off before returning at No. 10 after the release of the finale (335M minutes, believed to be the lowest for a Star Wars series finale).


I’d wager half of the viewership was for lulz and hatewatching.

It had a massive, stupidly massive, reported $180 million budget for the eight episode series, when at least that much money was in no way ever seen on screen. And when you spend that much, you want some sort of huge viewership to match.

The Acolyte did not have that. While there’s no official data from Disney, estimates put its audience as smaller than every other Star Wars series and half of something like Ahsoka, at best.









[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 02:48:49


Post by: ZergSmasher


 nels1031 wrote:
I’d wager half of the viewership was for lulz and hatewatching.

That's mainly why I watched it. It was like watching a train crash; terrible to see but you just can't look away...


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 02:49:22


Post by: LordofHats


The news comes at once as a shock


There's nothing shocking about this.

This was easily the second worst of the streaming series, and the irony is that the worst still has Boba Fett in the name and was required viewing for Mando Season 3.

The Acolyte continues the Disney trend of just kind of wasting the entire concept of the High Republic era on crummily constructed stories. Solid ideas. There are good bones in it. They just keep finding the most boring ways to do things with any of it.

They just keep spoiling the meal. I think people who called Episode 3 a mistake were problem right. A full flashback episode that necessitated another later flashback episode was a poor pacing decision, especially on top of the first 2 episodes. Interesting that viewership reportedly dropped hard after that episode. EDIT: This is why pacing in your opening episodes matters. Botch it too hard, and even if you fix the problem later people might have already bounced off.

The marvel to me is how much money was reportedly spent on the series. Where did the money go? That's a lot of money for what was on screen in that show.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 03:00:12


Post by: trexmeyer


The craziest thing to me is that there are literally class questlines in freaking Star Wars: The Old Republic that have better bare-bone concepts than what Disney is attempting to do with its TV series.



[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 03:03:53


Post by: LordofHats


Writing a piece of entertainment by committee is going to produce entertainment that plays like a committee meeting.

Overwrought.

Self-important.

Begging the question 'do I really need to be here for this?'

The difference between a TV series, and a committee meeting? I can walk away from the TV series and not worry about losing my job. Sooner of later Big Entertainment needs to find a better balance between executive control of projects and creative direction. There was maybe a good show in the Acolyte. Buried under a mountain of odd-ball decisions that feel like there were too many voices in the room and no one with a real eye on 'is what we're making even good.'


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 04:08:12


Post by: Bran Dawri


I suspect a lot of people also simply waited for the whole season (and a general verdict) to be out before going to watch it. Which would explain the bump to 10th place at the end, but not higher because the overwhelming verdict was that the show's mediocre at best.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 04:54:49


Post by: trexmeyer


It got canceled so it obviously didn't do the numbers they wanted.
Ahsoka was carried by having established characters and even then it didn't pull great viewing numbers. Shoot, they even had a white chad antagonist and a cute white waifu to draw the incel crowd and it still didn't pop off.
At what point does Disney go back to the drawing board?

I honestly don't get it. You don't even have to pump out complex stories. The EU novels sold well enough in the 90s and the majority weren't great.
How hard is it to produce mediocre stories and reuse materials (sets, armors, CGI models, etc)?
From my perspective, which is probably way off, Disney should be able to pump out mediocre Star Wars series at a minimal cost, but somehow they're unable to make expensive shows that can survive.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 05:08:53


Post by: insaniak


While this isn't surprising given the wailing and gnashing of teeth all over the internet about this show, it's disappointing that we won't get to see where it could have gone. I'm really hoping that at some point streaming services will start to commit more time to letting their shows develop past a shaky first season, rather than the current approach of dumping anything that isn't a ratings champion and moving onto the next thing in the hope it will do better.

I'm also worried that as happened with Solo, Disney will take the wrong message from this, and double down on producing material with familiar characters instead of trying something new. I'd love to see more High Republic stuff, or some Old Republic stuff, but feel like it's increasingly likely that the foreseeable future will just be more spinoffs from the Mandalorian, instead.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 05:12:07


Post by: Thargrim


I'm just not sure why they got the showrunner/writer of Russian Doll to do this, instead of someone with more experience and passion for this genre. The quality between this and Andor is pretty noteworthy.

I'm not surprised it was cancelled, same way I wasn't surprised about Willow beng cancelled. Willow was almost like a grounded swords and sorcery type movie, with most of it's fans being a bit older now. Yet they made a show that felt more fantastical and aimed at a young audience, a baffling decision.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 05:27:16


Post by: LordofHats


 insaniak wrote:
I'm also worried that as happened with Solo, Disney will take the wrong message from this, and double down on producing material with familiar characters instead of trying something new. I'd love to see more High Republic stuff, or some Old Republic stuff, but feel like it's increasingly likely that the foreseeable future will just be more spinoffs from the Mandalorian, instead.


It really is baffling how consistently mediocre to bad High Republic material has been.

I've followed it off and on and I just can't explain it. I feel like it shouldn't be possible to be as consistently bad as the High Republic has been. Books. Comics. Now a TV series. This gak shouldn't be that hard.

And yeah. I didn't like Acolyte much at the end and I'm not shocked it was cancelled but you're probably right to worry Disney will ultimately take all the wrong lessons from this. The one bright side is that Disney is still trying to push High Republic stuff and it has been at this consistently mediocre level for a few years now.

Maybe they'll split the difference. I feel like the showrunners behind Acolyte were 'bold' to expect they could get 3 seasons to tell a story. They probably should have aimed lower from the start and played it safe by aiming for a much more solid season 1 that could stand on its own.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 05:53:56


Post by: insaniak


I haven't been following the previous High Republic material, as I stopped following Star Wars in print after not enjoying the first couple of post-EU novels. But from following several of the authors involved on social media, a lot of time, effort and resources went into setting up the High Republic in the beginning, and a lot of it was pre-mapped out and already written before any of it actually saw public release. So it's possibly still coasting along on the strength of 'we have all this stuff made already, might as well release it'... with the hope that the Acolyte would help to boost more interest in the setting. Which it certainly did for me, even if it wasn't the best writing ever.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 07:12:54


Post by: Jadenim


 insaniak wrote:
While this isn't surprising given the wailing and gnashing of teeth all over the internet about this show, it's disappointing that we won't get to see where it could have gone. I'm really hoping that at some point streaming services will start to commit more time to letting their shows develop past a shaky first season, rather than the current approach of dumping anything that isn't a ratings champion and moving onto the next thing in the hope it will do better.

I'm also worried that as happened with Solo, Disney will take the wrong message from this, and double down on producing material with familiar characters instead of trying something new. I'd love to see more High Republic stuff, or some Old Republic stuff, but feel like it's increasingly likely that the foreseeable future will just be more spinoffs from the Mandalorian, instead.


Not just that they’re not letting things get beyond the first season, but those seasons are less than half the length of classic TV seasons. Go watch the first season of any classic sci-fi show (TNG, DS9, B5, etc.) and the first season is very shaky as they try to sort out the style, characterisation, relationships, etc. The only series I can remember being rock solid from the first episode was the reimagined Battlestar Galactica, and even that went through some evolution over the first few episodes (anyone else remember that Boxey was in it, briefly?!). Partial credit to SG-1, because that started to get good about halfway through season 1 (but even then, 10 episodes in? You’d be dead on streaming.)


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 08:36:47


Post by: Geifer


Well, that could have gone better. Shame that the story remains unfinished. But it's not terribly surprising. You can't expect audiences to stick with a shoddily crafted show. It's one thing to give a show and its (voice) actors time to get their bearings, but you can't neglect basic storytelling necessities as the Acolyte did.

Should have made the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise instead.

 Thargrim wrote:
I'm not surprised it was cancelled, same way I wasn't surprised about Willow beng cancelled. Willow was almost like a grounded swords and sorcery type movie, with most of it's fans being a bit older now. Yet they made a show that felt more fantastical and aimed at a young audience, a baffling decision.


Yeah, but Willow season one was actually good.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 08:48:03


Post by: nels1031


trexmeyer wrote:
The craziest thing to me is that there are literally class questlines in freaking Star Wars: The Old Republic that have better bare-bone concepts than what Disney is attempting to do with its TV series.


The 5-6 minute CGI cinematic trailers for The Old Republic tell better stories than this 8 episode show.

The last one, featuring the Twilek Padawan and Darth Malgus, had a lot in common with this show in some ways, just told a better story in a fraction of the time.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
There's nothing shocking about this.


Honestly, I thought for sure it would get a paired down second season just out of sheer intransigence from Disney.

I mean, they have been in a permanent state of ‘will they/won’t they” for a Lando series or movie based off of Donald Glovers portrayal in the Solo movie, which infamously bombed, for years now.

Not to mention we’re supposedly getting Rey movies…


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 13:49:26


Post by: LunarSol


 ZergSmasher wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
I’d wager half of the viewership was for lulz and hatewatching.

That's mainly why I watched it. It was like watching a train crash; terrible to see but you just can't look away...


I probably got more entertainment for the lulz but I had some small hope they'd somehow right the ship on this one. There's big chunks of it I really enjoyed including the whole vibe of the classic Jedi order, but that can't really save it from a script that really doesn't know what kind of story it wants to tell or even which characters it wants to focus on.


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 15:30:26


Post by: DaveC


Deadline reporting that there will be no season 2 of the Acolyte. There’s a few threads I’d like to have seen picked up - maybe in some other form - but it’s probably for the best.

https://deadline.com/2024/08/the-acolyte-canceled-no-season-2-star-wars-disney-plus-1236044233/

Edit sorry missed the link above


[Star Wars] Disney+ SW shows(spoilers)  @ 2024/08/20 15:43:59


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


I was really hoping that we would learn that Qimir is actually baby Palpatine, which would make it all worthwhile.

Ah well.

Into my head canon you go.