I also think the entire "different galaxy" thing was a terribly wasted concept. It could have been used to set up a truly alien environment but instead it's just protein based (Ezra ate the organic nutrients from that planet for 10 years, I presume) regular earth-like life with humanoids and cultures copying established patterns from earth history.
Very, very lazy, uncreative writing. S-F has been doing so much better than that for decades.
Just out of curiosity because I'm not going to watch that video, what exactly did they mean by "Pandering"?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I dunno if you’ve noticed. But Star Wars doesn’t and has never really done non-earth like planets.
Indeed. Budget is also a big consideration to take into account. Just because it's Disney, doesn't mean the money is infinite.
Also, just my two pennies, but I prefer a show to have on-location shooting. CG is cool but when you can do it in real life just do that.
To be fair a LOT of sci-fi use Earth-Like planets.
Often with topographies that are very similar due to trying to get them within the same range of certain studios to avoid having to spend more.
It costs a lot more to make totally alien worlds and either a massive set or a lot of greenscreen. Plus as noted it can also mean that everyone is wearing helmets or facemasks because of the air and most studios try their best to avoid that. Same reason lots of knights and kings are often seen without proper face protective covers in armour. They are paying big money for the actor and face, they don't want it 90% covered up for the whole battle or sequence
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Except “they arrived and all died due to the planets being inimical to life” doesn’t make for a terribly interesting story.
It wouldn't even come to that. If the planet isn't habitable, the Star Destroyer places a beacon at the end of the migration route that directs the rescue party to the habitable planet one star system over where the Imperials await rescue instead.
The only thing that achieves is giving people who already have issues with the show's pacing another pointless stop on the way to the real action.
I was thinking less of the planet itself - barren but habitable makes sense for the plot - but rather the completely generic aliens and their cultures, thought processes and motivations.
Cultures of our own species on our single planet are more varied and difficult to comprehend for people outside of them (not to mention, communicate with) than these in a completely different GALAXY to the one characters come from...
Cyel wrote: I was thinking less of the planet itself - barren but habitable makes sense for the plot - but rather the completely generic aliens and their cultures, thought processes and motivations.
Yeah, it would be cool but the story is about the return of Thrawn.
An entire episode dedicated to learning about an alien culture they can't really talk to doesn't serve the wider narrative.
Cultures of our own species on our single planet are more varied and difficult to comprehend for people outside of them (not to mention, communicate with) than these in a completely different GALAXY to the one characters come from...
I don't agree with that point. People choose not to learn about other cultures or are manipulated into being insular.
It's also entirely irrelevant because of the "aliens" we see, only one person is able to properly communicate with the crab-folk, and the bandits just get beat up/killed.
The Night Sisters being there isn't a big deal because they were always this ancient race of sorceresses and it's not outlandish for them to be from another galaxy.
Also Claudia Black is the one in charge so any criticism of the Night Sisters is therefore moot. Sorry I don't make the rules,
Then it is as I said - an opportunity wasted. A promise of something extraordinary and exotic (a wholly different galaxy!) wasted on something generic, boring and mundane.
Cyel wrote: Then it is as I said - an opportunity wasted. A promise of something extraordinary and exotic (a wholly different galaxy!) wasted on something generic, boring and mundane.
They basically needed a nonsense reason for why Thrawn and Ezra couldn't come back (beyond, 'crashed in the Unknown Regions with no working hyperdrive or communications,' because that was 'too simple') and for Morgan to have... some sort of point to having a complicated plot to get there.
Basically they over-wrote the premise and had to pile on extra layers to justify what they came up with, which essentially became Gilligan's Island.
The SW writers do need to get over this thing about ancient maps leading to recent crash events, though. It was dumb enough the first time.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Except “they arrived and all died due to the planets being inimical to life” doesn’t make for a terribly interesting story.
More interesting than Book of Boba Fett.
But yeah, I would have preferred they either went totally alien or leaned into alternate GFFA, with Dathomir witches and Zeffo(?) as the recurring force dynasties, with clones as the droids and droids as the clones, where hamburgers eat people, and Dexter Jettster has a cool name.
Since Baylon and Shin are Skoll and Hati AND Baylan is clearly looking for the Mortis Gods, can we assume that there is going to be some sort of Force Ragnarok coming?
At the end of Ahsoka and The Mandalorian s3 it looks like all the pieces are being moved into position for something more climactic than what we've seen before, but the thread hasn't been pulled taut just yet. More likely I'm just ascribing better planning than intended.
- Luke is establishing the NJO (which is going to fall in T-15? years)
- Moff Gideon's Remnant is 'defeated', but not The Empire as a whole and now Thrawn is back to take control
- There are three? (has Sabine's sensitivity been confirmed?) Force Users on a planet that somehow has ties to The Mortis Gods and one has a vested interest in them
- The Mandalorians are recovering, albeit slowly, but their numbers aren't wholly insignificant for the scale we've seen in the D+ series
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I dunno if you’ve noticed. But Star Wars doesn’t and has never really done non-earth like planets.
Then don't go to another galaxy. If your script just [ext]. Forest. Day for the location but it's in another galaxy, why are you bothering to make it another galaxy?
It'd be like spending time talking about the wild and whacky new cultures in a new galaxy and you go there and it's just the same culture. Reminds me of an early season Stargate episode where they go to great pains to talk about some differences in language, but then have everyone speak regular normal English. Yes, that was a reality of making a television show - everyone had to speak English for expediencies' sake - but then don't make a big deal in your script about language and differences when there aren't really any.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Reminds me of an early season Stargate episode where they go to great pains to talk about some differences in language, but then have everyone speak regular normal English. Yes, that was a reality of making a television show - everyone had to speak English for expediencies' sake - but then don't make a big deal in your script about language and differences when there aren't really any.
I think the bigger mistake was in the later seasons making a big deal about Daniel being able to speak Goa’uld; if they hadn’t done that they could have hand waved it away as “after the first few missions we taught all of the SG teams to speak Goa’uld, as we realised 90% of the planets we go to were settled with humans transplanted by them and it’s a local language.”
I don't think "truly alien" is a good fit for what the show tried to achieve with the other galaxy. Functionally it was a good place to strand Thrawn and Ezra because we've known from as early as Empire Strikes Back that you can't realistically strand anyone in the known galaxy for any amount of time. Both hyperspace travel and communication are far too convenient for that. The ease of repairing junk to fully functional gadgets, too. A place to put someone on ice is pretty much all there is to the other galaxy.
If they hadn't gone with Night Sisters, the Mortis Gods and the World Between Worlds as the other story threads, sure they could have explored a planet in a different galaxy that feels noticeably different to worlds in the core galaxy. But they chose to focus on elements of Force mysticism relevant to Ahsoka and Ezra over space exploration. Makes sense to me. I'd find the latter a lot more compelling if it was done by a conventional New Republic expedition than a bunch of laser sword wielding maniacs on a mission. It's probably best not to overload a show with too many concepts. Book of Boba and Mando season three suffered from that. By comparison, Ahsoka is pleasantly focused and only throws in Hera's parts as something almost completely detached from the main quest.
I think Hera’s bits, with those from Mando S3 about Dr Pershing are serving a purpose. Showing that the New Republic isn’t all happy clappy unified super best friends.
That it’s still bogged down in protocol, requisitions, misplaced good faith, and fairly petty politicking.
It’s doing the job of explaining and justifying The Resistance that is to come. Leia going paramilitary, because too few are taking the threats seriously.
I really liked C-3PO’s cameo. It’s was a fun scene, and a great way to make Leia’s presence and clout felt, without needing a personal appearance.
I also appreciated Senator Wotsit’s motivations being left undetermined. We the audience can see his influence is benefitting Thrawn et all, but whether that’s him acting as a cats paw, or he genuinely wants to maintain the peace so hard won remains to be seen. He could be actively malevolent. He could be a true believer in his words. He could just be a short sighted idiot.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I dunno if you’ve noticed. But Star Wars doesn’t and has never really done non-earth like planets.
Then don't go to another galaxy. If your script just [ext]. Forest. Day for the location but it's in another galaxy, why are you bothering to make it another galaxy?
It'd be like spending time talking about the wild and whacky new cultures in a new galaxy and you go there and it's just the same culture. Reminds me of an early season Stargate episode where they go to great pains to talk about some differences in language, but then have everyone speak regular normal English. Yes, that was a reality of making a television show - everyone had to speak English for expediencies' sake - but then don't make a big deal in your script about language and differences when there aren't really any.
As I recall Stargate did ok with the languages part in early seasons; but at some point they got lazy/changed focus and everyone wound up speaking english with the odd bit of alien here and there, but mostly only when they were conversing with themselves. It did indeed stand out to me as a problem. I think in some ways it was likely just an expedience element of trying to change stories without the first part always being "and here's 20mins of language barrier issues - again". It does seem very odd and it does indeed devalue Daniel on the team because he's the translator who - doesn't really have to translate any more.
Of course one could take the angle that its like a written book and they did teach the whole team and just converse in english for the ease of the viewing audience
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think Hera’s bits, with those from Mando S3 about Dr Pershing are serving a purpose. Showing that the New Republic isn’t all happy clappy unified super best friends.
That it’s still bogged down in protocol, requisitions, misplaced good faith, and fairly petty politicking.
It’s doing the job of explaining and justifying The Resistance that is to come. Leia going paramilitary, because too few are taking the threats seriously.
I really liked C-3PO’s cameo. It’s was a fun scene, and a great way to make Leia’s presence and clout felt, without needing a personal appearance.
I also appreciated Senator Wotsit’s motivations being left undetermined. We the audience can see his influence is benefitting Thrawn et all, but whether that’s him acting as a cats paw, or he genuinely wants to maintain the peace so hard won remains to be seen. He could be actively malevolent. He could be a true believer in his words. He could just be a short sighted idiot.
Mind you that I didn't say the New Republic parts don't serve a purpose. Just that they're barely connected to the main quest.
I appreciate seeing the post-Endor state of the galaxy, a solid look at the New Republic included. It's one of the things I wanted most out of the shows we got.
With that said, Mando season three is pretty egregious in that regard. We get a whole episode of dealing with Pershing on far away Coruscant, and all that contributes later on is "job's a good'un, boss, oh by the way, did you know a ton of Mandos are coming your way?" All of that exposition for our viewing pleasure, while cool in isolation, goes into the less important half of a single sentence that's actually relevant to the main plot of the season.
I don't mind having that kind of stuff dumped on me because my interest in the setting is equal to my interest in any particular story, and seeing it contributes to my enjoyment of Star Wars. I'm also pretty used to taking in hacked up information. But purely in terms of storytelling it's actually pretty bad to throw out relevance and pacing for detours that don't lead anywhere in the story that is being told. The exposition we're treated to would be better left for its own show or an anthology like Tales of the Jedi.
It’s sort of back-door pilot stuff. Introducing insight into the state of the main Galaxy here and there, so the Big Finale has a proper background, without a show all about the troubles of the New Republic,
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s sort of back-door pilot stuff. Introducing insight into the state of the main Galaxy here and there, so the Big Finale has a proper background, without a show all about the troubles of the New Republic,
Sure. And at the risk of sparking another dumpster fire people just can't resist fueling, we all saw in the sequel trilogy what happens if you don't do that.
However, good reason does not automatically lead to good execution. You have to be mindful of how you do things, not just why.
For example Leia overruling the council and letting Hera off the hook for her unsanctioned action which got two pilots killed, but in the sequel trilogy slapping Poe for his unsanctioned action which saved the whole Rebellion...
Lord Damocles wrote: For example Leia overruling the council and letting Hera off the hook for her unsanctioned action which got two pilots killed, but in the sequel trilogy slapping Poe for his unsanctioned action which saved the whole Rebellion...
It’s almost as if Poe got a lot of pilots and crew killed.
It’s almost as if a person can mature and shift their opinion over time.
Its almost as if trying to write ad hoc justifications for the crappy setup of the sequels is trying glue feathers back on the chicken after you've killed it.
Making every SW show carry an Idiot Ball for a couple episodes to justify the sequels is a pointless price for these shows to pay. They have enough work to do as it is (and they consistently keep failing to do enough with characters and story elements actually in the current show when they time out to 'set up' whatever meta-nonsense they may or may not have planned).
Yeah but any cost/benefit analysis would accept losing a bunch of, I assume, antique bombers in return for a major cap ship. That is the whole point of carrier aviation - losing small amounts of men and material to cause far greater loses from sinking enemy battleships.
It’s the lives. Yes taking out the Dreadnought denied the First Order a strategic asset. But at significant cost in Resistance lives.
At that point, the plan appeared to be “right, we’ve wrecked Starkiller Base, but now they know where we are. Let’s skedaddle before they get here”. I’m not persuaded Poe’s attack preserved the majority of the fleet.
Yeah but any cost/benefit analysis would accept losing a bunch of, I assume, antique bombers in return for a major cap ship. That is the whole point of carrier aviation - losing small amounts of men and material to cause far greater loses from sinking enemy battleships.
Even better cost/benefit when the exposition which clunks down to us says that said capitol ship is a fleet killer, which is about to fire on your... fleet! (also WW2 bombers in space were dumb).
Can't complain too much about dumb tech in star wars, it isn't exactly internally consistent at the best of times. Instead go watch Expanse for well thought through or BSG for on the surface looking great...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s the lives. Yes taking out the Dreadnought denied the First Order a strategic asset. But at significant cost in Resistance lives.
At that point, the plan appeared to be “right, we’ve wrecked Starkiller Base, but now they know where we are. Let’s skedaddle before they get here”. I’m not persuaded Poe’s attack preserved the majority of the fleet.
Not sure why that particular sequence is worth arguing about. Captain (or was it Commander?) Poe orders the bombers to attack and Leia stands by and lets it happen. Later on she's super unhappy that he did that. The issue? Captain/Commander Poe doesn't order gak if an admiral or the frigging leader of the Resistance disagrees with him. The whole thing is complete bs before you even get to the question of how Leia should reasonably act in that situation and how that relates to what she does in Ahsoka.
So yeah. Right back to trying to fix movies with massive script problems with supplemental material that can't change anything about those massive script problems. It's not helping, Let the sequels die. Kill them if you have to.
Lord Damocles wrote: For example Leia overruling the council and letting Hera off the hook for her unsanctioned action which got two pilots killed, but in the sequel trilogy slapping Poe for his unsanctioned action which saved the whole Rebellion...
It’s almost as if Poe got a lot of pilots and crew killed.
It’s almost as if a person can mature and shift their opinion over time.
However, good reason does not automatically lead to good execution. You have to be mindful of how you do things, not just why.
That's the crux of it for me. MDG seems very keen to criticise people for not thinking through the reasons why something may have been done. Ignoring for a moment that often that seems to involve bending over backwards to be generous to some pretty bad writing, it also completely ignores the fact that execution is the main determining factor in whether something is successful.
A lot of the recent SW shows have had pacing issues caused by similar approaches. Entire episodes are sometimes given over to things that don't seem important at the time and turn out to not actually be all that important to the show they're in (the Coruscant episode in Mando is a good example). Or we have significant time taken out of Ahsoka to deal with the New Republic stuff that ultimately doesn't go anywhere. Maybe it will eventually, but it's the time spent on it versus the payoff in the show I'm watching that's important. You can set things up for the future while still making the events that do so relevant and interesting in the context of the show they appear in. I think SW shows have consistently failed with that when they've tried it.
It wouldn't be so bad if MDG took off the stan blinders for a bit and agreed to disagree rather than trying to justify every bit of bad writing or plot hole that exists in recent SW offerings, or trying to deny it behind the smug veneer of "media literacy" that he appears to be solely blessed with.
I swear Disney could poop out a Star Wars special with nothing but Ewoks twisting their nips for two hours and he would probably still say it was a cinematic masterpiece. I think the only thing that might turn him off is if it was a Rick and Morty crossover episode with Star Wars but even then I think his fanboyism would win over.
It's fair for people who like a thing to like a thing. Even if it's bad. People should like what they like and like it to whatever extent they like it.
But also it's fair to call out a thing for all it's problems. Especially if those problems are less opinion and more technical. Pacing, camera work, plot that goes nowhere. Filler episodes. All fair critiques.
SW does not have a great track record. Anywhere. Movies or D+. Before Disney acquired it or after. It has always been more bad than good.
Even during the release of the Orig Trilogy you had the x mas special, Droids and Ewok cartoons and movies like Caravan of Courage (I LIKE Caravan of Courage, but I would be hard pressed to call it good).
The innocent in me wants to believe that the seeding of bits and bobs for one show into another is an attempt to create a more connected feel to the stories.
My cynical side sees it as a way to force people into watching all of the shows. (Which seems pointless for a couple of reasons.)
My cynical side sees it as a way to force people into watching all of the shows. (Which seems pointless for a couple of reasons.)
I can see a logic to it. Back in the old "4 channels only" you had to fight for the best time slots of the day and week with other shows. Once you were in your slot you'd either seek to improve it or fight to keep it as a regular time slot.
Today there are no time slots, as soon as your show is live on streaming the viewer can watch it any day; any time. So instead of the limit being the time in the day for 4 channels; its purely now the time in the day of your viewing market. So if you want your franchise to do well and your franchise shows to do well; one tactic for a bigger studio is to simply smother the market. Instead of 1 at a time do 3 or 4. If you can pump out that many Starwars shows, another sci-fi series is going to have a hard time penetrating the streaming market. If everyone is watching X in their weekly free time then there's less time or no time for Y and Z.
Esp when you consider that the executives on top who approve shows for more budgets will be looking at launch day and early viewing numbers. It doesn't matter if you get big numbers in 4 years; you need them in the days/weeks after you go live
SW does not have a great track record. Anywhere. Movies or D+. Before Disney acquired it or after. It has always been more bad than good.
That's a massive understatement.
We went from not knowing how much of Vader was cybernetic to the guy being a quadriplegic.
Qui-Gonn Jinn got stabbed and died. Sabine got stabbed and lived.
Maul was cut in half and somehow returned, stronger than before.
Fett survived the Sarlacc and became a friendly mob mobss, which is even worse than EU Fett surviving the Sarlacc and becoming Mandalore.
Luke ovexerted himself and died.
Midichlorians exist.
The Clone Wars makes no sense as a name.
SW does not have a great track record. Anywhere. Movies or D+. Before Disney acquired it or after. It has always been more bad than good.
That's a massive understatement.
Qui-Gonn Jinn got stabbed and died. Sabine got stabbed and lived.
And? Apparently Jinn got stabbed somewhere really vital/ran out of HP. Sabine did not. Also remember that the needs of the plot dictates wether a character lives/dies.
Of course someone specifically defends the Sabine stabbing and only that. You're definitely not remotely biased about anything.
Getting stabbed by a lightsaber almost anywhere in the torso, especially the stomach, should be fatal. They cauterize flesh. Sabine was stabbed where her liver or intensines should be located at. At the very least she should have needed a prolonged dive in a bacta tank and possibly a few new organs or colonoscopy bag. It's not just bad writing, it's almost intentionally awful to the point where I wonder if it is intended to be ragebait. There is no defense for it beyond being a mindless consumer of garbage. You might take offense to that, it might be a bit harsh, but Shin could've won that fight in dozens, hundreds, thousands of different ways perhaps, but instead the writers chose a course of action so mindnumbingly stupid I struggle to understand how it was ever given the green light.
FWIW, I feel exactly the same way about Maul surviving being cleaved in two, Palpatine returning from wherever he was chilling, and Fett's survival so you can miss me with the incoming accusations of sexism.
Edit: Aside from the stabbing I thought the Shin-Sabine duel had excellent choreography that was as good as anything we've seen in Star Wars.
It’s definitely an unforced error, one of dozens in Ahsoka.
There’s a whole subplot about the NR that makes everyone involved stupid that could have simply been avoided with one line of dialogue: “we can’t spare any capital ships while Moff Gluppo’s attacking Bumfooine. Best I can give you is a shuttle and a squad of X-Wings.” The problem is the writers/execs/Disney want certain kinds of drama, certain set ups for the sequel trilogy, and possibly certain scenes for the trailer (dramatic stabbing?) that just don’t add up to a good story.
trexmeyer wrote: Of course someone specifically defends the Sabine stabbing and only that. You're definitely not remotely biased about anything.
Sure, there's things I'm biased about. I'm just not biased about this. Why? Because I know that plot dictates who dies from being stabbed/shot/blown-up/or worse/etc. And I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen it happen in movies, TV shows, comics.... It's just how this stuff works. This time? This time it was done with a lightsaber (shrugs).
trexmeyer wrote: Getting stabbed by a lightsaber almost anywhere in the torso, especially the stomach, should be fatal. They cauterize flesh. Sabine was stabbed where her liver or intensines should be located at. At the very least she should have needed a prolonged dive in a bacta tank and possibly a few new organs or colonoscopy bag. It's not just bad writing, it's almost intentionally awful to the point where I wonder if it is intended to be ragebait. There is no defense for it beyond being a mindless consumer of garbage. You might take offense to that, it might be a bit harsh, but Shin could've won that fight in dozens, hundreds, thousands of different ways perhaps, but instead the writers chose a course of action so mindnumbingly stupid I struggle to understand how it was ever given the green light.
Well, if it was rage-bait? Then it seems to have worked as you seem pretty enraged.
trexmeyer wrote: Of course someone specifically defends the Sabine stabbing and only that. You're definitely not remotely biased about anything.
Sure, there's things I'm biased about. I'm just not biased about this. Why? Because I know that plot dictates who dies from being stabbed/shot/blown-up/or worse/etc. And I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen it happen in movies, TV shows, comics.... It's just how this stuff works. This time? This time it was done with a lightsaber (shrugs).
Which is fine. Yet again, it's the execution that's the problem, not the basic idea. There are any number of ways the writers could have had Shin win that fight and achieve the character goals they wanted and they went with what feels like the worst possible option. Sabine could have been stabbed in the shoulder, or had her arms or legs heavily injured, for example (something that might even then have shown Shin to be cruel and vindictive, in contrast to her master, which may itself have been an interesting character moment for her). But they went with this obvious fake-out, purely for shock value, then ended up in this weird situation where they had to play up the end of the fight as potentially fatal yet three scenes later she's up in bed, laughing and joking.
It undermines the villain, treats the audience like idiots and makes no logical sense. It's like a holy trinity of bad writing.
Even during the release of the Orig Trilogy you had the x mas special, Droids and Ewok cartoons and movies like Caravan of Courage (I LIKE Caravan of Courage, but I would be hard pressed to call it good).
Yup, it's always been kids' shows and movies through and through. The original trilogy had things going for it, sure, but it also was wildly inconsistent, had cardboard characters, terrible dialogue (bar a few popculture approved oneliners) and absolutely cringy attempted humour most fans pretend doesn't exist ("bwahaha, a clumsy droid fell from the stairs, somebody stop me!").
Andor and in some parts a few video games tried to develop it into a different direction successfully but I think it was despite what the setting is in general, not thanks to it.
Qui-Gonn Jinn got stabbed and died. Sabine got stabbed and lived.
And?
And it's bad for Star Wars as a brand when internal consistency is discarded. Lightsaber impalement has been established as a lethal blow in the setting, and was true until it wasn't.
First, the areas stabbed aren’t identical. Qui-Gonn is pretty central on the torso, with the blade emerging from his back, having likely penetrated his spine. Sabine? Lower right hand side. Not quite sure if it went through or just under the rib cage.
Second, Maul’s blade appears to have been lodged in Qui-Gonn for a longer period. Referring back to the movies opening scenes, we see that whilst a Lightsaber will cook whatever it’s slotted into, it’s not a flash fry, for want of a better term.
That placement and timing matters. From what we see, at worst Sabine took the blade to a lung. A serious, but not automatically fatal wound. With Shin’s blade not being held there, we can easily extrapolate it didn’t have the time to cook surrounding tissue. So Sabine is critically injured, but the wound itself is cauterised. Qui-Gonn? Multiple organs likely penetrated, spinal cord possibly cut, and surrounding cooking of tissue from the longer time the blade was in him.
Given we’ve seen Vader rebuilt from the crispiest nugget the Galaxy has ever seen, we can reasonably say medical tech is sufficiently advanced that, applied in good time, you can survive a lot in Star Wars.
One could also argue that a Force user might have the capacity to save themselves with the power of the force; however it seems that its likely a rare skill/hard to master or something that no one really knows how to master. So sometimes panic and the Force lets it work and sometimes it fails.
You could even argue that Anakin, Maul and the Emperor all show greater capacity to take injury and thus potentially the "Dark Side" makes it easier to preserve your body instead of passing on. Thus allowing them to overcome wounds that "Light Side" Force users are more likely to die from
It’s also like claiming that just because Stab Victim A died from their wounds, Stab Victim B is doomed - regardless of exactly where they were stabbed.
Mess up the heart or the liver, and your chances of survival are just gonna be lower than someone who was stabbed in the gut or kidneys.
But of course, by pointing out the injuries in question aren’t identical, I’m just being a “Stan” and a “fanboy”, no?
A lot of the recent SW shows have had pacing issues caused by similar approaches. Entire episodes are sometimes given over to things that don't seem important at the time and turn out to not actually be all that important to the show they're in (the Coruscant episode in Mando is a good example). Or we have significant time taken out of Ahsoka to deal with the New Republic stuff that ultimately doesn't go anywhere. Maybe it will eventually, but it's the time spent on it versus the payoff in the show I'm watching that's important. You can set things up for the future while still making the events that do so relevant and interesting in the context of the show they appear in. I think SW shows have consistently failed with that when they've tried it.
I think they mastered this in Book of Boba. Whatever was going on in the Ringworld they cut to for the Mando episodes was 100x more interesting than the rest of the show.
In that particular case, they undermined the finale of the show and the titular character. Which is arguably worse than the filler segments of Mando3 and Ahsoka, as hamfisted and uninteresting as they are.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s also like claiming that just because Stab Victim A died from their wounds, Stab Victim B is doomed - regardless of exactly where they were stabbed.
Mess up the heart or the liver, and your chances of survival are just gonna be lower than someone who was stabbed in the gut or kidneys.
But of course, by pointing out the injuries in question aren’t identical, I’m just being a “Stan” and a “fanboy”, no?
We've now had 3 separate situations in recent SW shows where a character is impaled by a lightsaber and lived (Grand Inquisitor and uh, whatever the female Inquisitor is called in Obi Wan, and Sabine in Ahsoka). In better written shows that might actually mean the chances of survival are quite high in these cases. The problem is in each of the 3 cases there's no reason why the victim should survive or be allowed to survive. In all 3 cases the attack was delivered by a trained attacker and supposed to be lethal, but it isn't for...reasons. Better writers would have realised this and come up with different scenarios with more logical, consistent explanations. That's the problem.
With Shin’s blade not being held there, we can easily extrapolate it didn’t have the time to cook surrounding tissue. Second, Maul’s blade appears to have been lodged in Qui-Gonn for a longer period. But of course, by pointing out the injuries in question aren’t identical, I’m just being a “Stan” and a “fanboy”, no?
Darth Maul stabbing in spoiler.
Spoiler:
I have absolutely no idea why would you lie about something as basic as "Shin's blade not being held there."
Edit: It's also easy enough to see that in both instances the blade was held internally for nearly the same duration.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s also like claiming that just because Stab Victim A died from their wounds, Stab Victim B is doomed - regardless of exactly where they were stabbed.
Mess up the heart or the liver, and your chances of survival are just gonna be lower than someone who was stabbed in the gut or kidneys.
But of course, by pointing out the injuries in question aren’t identical, I’m just being a “Stan” and a “fanboy”, no?
We've now had 3 separate situations in recent SW shows where a character is impaled by a lightsaber and lived (Grand Inquisitor and uh, whatever the female Inquisitor is called in Obi Wan, and Sabine in Ahsoka). In better written shows that might actually mean the chances of survival are quite high in these cases. The problem is in each of the 3 cases there's no reason why the victim should survive or be allowed to survive. In all 3 cases the attack was delivered by a trained attacker and supposed to be lethal, but it isn't for...reasons. Better writers would have realised this and come up with different scenarios with more logical, consistent explanations. That's the problem.
On the one hand, yes to all of that.
On the other hand, Qui-Gon probably just lost the will to live. There's no cure for that, as we all know.
Also, Third Sister's name is Third Sister, so you don't have to remember her actual name. Which I don't.
Qui-Gonn clearly gets it through the spine. Sabine? Either through a lung, or a gut shot just beneath the ribcage.
I've already addressed that.
Timestamp: 2023/10/16 03:47:46
Getting stabbed by a lightsaber almost anywhere in the torso, especially the stomach, should be fatal. They cauterize flesh. Sabine was stabbed where her liver or intensines should be located at. At the very least she should have needed a prolonged dive in a bacta tank and possibly a few new organs or colonoscopy bag.
Stomach wounds are easily survivable. You may have some digestion and nutritional problems after, but you’d still be alive.
Lungs? You’ve got two. So again, definitely a debilitating wound, but with medical attention, and a prosthetic lung? Really not that much of a problem.
With Ahsoka being on-scene pretty much immediately, there’s first aid on hand, possibly some form of Bacta patch, then fly her straight to the hospital.
So…no. Lightsaber to the gut or stomach shouldn’t be inevitably fatal. At all.
Look at the treatment that saved Fennec Shand from a close range blaster to the gut. That treatment was done in the equivalent of a back street clinic, and she survived just fine.
The cauterisation is likely what allowed her to survive in the short term. No bleeding, no wound to reopen when being moved, and any nasties in the gut and stomach not making it into the blood stream, so no Peritonitis. Which as the former owner of a ruptured appendix I can assure you is absolutely not fun at all.
The mental gymnastics absolutely astound me. 'Oh it wasn't fatal, she was stabbed in the lungs.' With a weapon that's made of pure energy. What was I thinking? Of course Sabine would be fine.
Her recovery is oddly swift, no argument there. But so far we we’re at “I’ve just decided such a stabbing should’ve been instantly lethal”.
Nope. We're at the meeting point of "why doesn't Shin bother finishing off her clearly still-alive opponent" and "I'm sure the writers could have come up with a whole host of other scenarios that achieve the same character and plot goals without leaving a significant number of people wondering how another character survives a pretty lethal-looking wound with no real repercussions". It's the second point that's most egregious to me.
Second, Maul’s blade appears to have been lodged in Qui-Gonn for a longer period. Referring back to the movies opening scenes, we see that whilst a Lightsaber will cook whatever it’s slotted into, it’s not a flash fry, for want of a better term.
I don't know why anyone is continuing to debate with MGS. He flat out lied and now he's actively contradicting himself.
We've gone from the lightsaber cooked Qui-Gonn, but it ~magically~ didn't do so to Sabine.
And I’m not arguing that at all. Indeed if you’d care to read my response to your earlier comment, you’ll note I conceded I was wrong about Sabine getting a quick in and out.
My argument is being stabbed through the spine, and stabbed either in the guts or a single lung just aren’t the same injury. At all.
Nor is there any evidence for your own claim a gut shot would be fatal.
Overread wrote: I thought it was "lightsabre struck Qui-gon's spine and heart" whilst Shin is the lung/kidney region.
That is absolutely correct, but one of his arguments in favor of Qui-Gon dying was the duration of the stabbing which has now been dropped since Shin was stabbed for roughly the same time frame.
Edit: Removed quote. I'm not arguing with someone that constantly lies.
What lie? You provided evidence to counter my claim, I corrected my claim as I was in error.
That’s….that’s not a lie. That’s being mistaken.
So I’m down to “the injury locations were, biologically, very different, and here’s why a gut shot like Sabine’s is far from automatically fatal. Grievous, yes. Fatal, no”.
Bobthehero wrote: Shin could have just... pulled the saber upwards rather than pull it back, bissect Sabine that way, and would have had enough time to flee, really.
Shhhhh, don't say that! You can't use logic in this debate, only blind handwavium. He'll probably say it's because it wouldn't be family friendly and leave it at that, even though we saw Thanos get sliced in half by Ultron/Vision in What If and Darth Maul already got cut in half in Phantom Menace.
Cyel wrote: Andor and in some parts a few video games tried to develop it into a different direction successfully but I think it was despite what the setting is in general, not thanks to it.
Consensus about Andor with friends is it could be any Sci Fi show, it just happens to be Star Wars. Space fascists showing how it sucks to be alive. Could have been rebadged into all sorts of things.
Bobthehero wrote: Shin could have just... pulled the saber upwards rather than pull it back, bissect Sabine that way, and would have had enough time to flee, really.
Shhhhh, don't say that! You can't use logic in this debate, only blind handwavium. He'll probably say it's because it wouldn't be family friendly and leave it at that, even though we saw Thanos get sliced in half by Ultron/Vision in What If and Darth Maul already got cut in half in Phantom Menace.
I think it just harkens to how SW has always treated light sabres more like swords than beams of particle energy. There are a lot of situations where a laser sword could be used to FAR more devastating effect. Heck Clone Wars at least gave us a few scenes of using them as "lets cut through the wall" movements.
Another angle could be that she didn't want to do an upper sweep because that would leave her wide open to getting a slash right across her own gut in death-throw retaliation. Pulling back left her able to better counter. Of course the counter argument to that is she could have slashed down.
I mean heck that fight alone has several "I'm going to spin around and show you my back" moves that are totally nuts in any sword play let alone with a laser sword. And yet that's something we also associate with SW fights
Bobthehero wrote: Shin could have just... pulled the saber upwards rather than pull it back, bissect Sabine that way, and would have had enough time to flee, really.
This was what jumped out at me. It would have been easier to remove her lightsaber in any way other than straight-out-backwards-without-widening-the-hole. It looks contrived the same way all the lightsaber chops on the zombie STs that didn’t remove heads or limbs looked contrived. The combat was good up until then, and suddenly feels contrived and phony.
If Ahsoka was just about to show up and save Sabine, why bother with the stabbing at all? Have Shin disable or disarm Sabine only for Ahsoka to stay the killing blow. Instead we get gentle/incompetent Shin, Iron Guts Sabine, and Book of Boba Fett level stakes.
Bobthehero wrote: Shin could have just... pulled the saber upwards rather than pull it back, bissect Sabine that way, and would have had enough time to flee, really.
Another angle could be that she didn't want to do an upper sweep because that would leave her wide open to getting a slash right across her own gut in death-throw retaliation. Pulling back left her able to better counter. Of course the counter argument to that is she could have slashed down.
I might have worded things weird, I meant Shin stabs Sabine, then slashes up with her saber to cut everything in the way. She would have destroyed Sabine's saber after splitting her head in two.
'bit gruesome, but either way, that seems to be the ideal course of action to ensure your enemy is dead and can't retaliate, all the while being quick enough as a motion that Shin would have escaped.
Bobthehero wrote: Shin could have just... pulled the saber upwards rather than pull it back, bissect Sabine that way, and would have had enough time to flee, really.
Another angle could be that she didn't want to do an upper sweep because that would leave her wide open to getting a slash right across her own gut in death-throw retaliation. Pulling back left her able to better counter. Of course the counter argument to that is she could have slashed down.
I might have worded things weird, I meant Shin stabs Sabine, then slashes up with her saber to cut everything in the way. She would have destroyed Sabine's saber after splitting her head in two.
'bit gruesome, but either way, that seems to be the ideal course of action to ensure your enemy is dead and can't retaliate, all the while being quick enough as a motion that Shin would have escaped.
Ahh true there, I was thinking slicing up and taking off most of her shoulder, but you're right if she went up and went through the head that would work.
I wonder if its a force thing? Not Force, but actual energy of moving the blade. We know when they connect there's force and whenever we see them using lightsabres to cut with there "seems" to sometimes be a level of physical force needed to push through. However at the same time we've also seen a lot of effortless slashes too.
Heck who knows perhaps its even just down to muscle memory and training or something that makes people avoid " slice their skull in two"
Overread wrote: Heck who knows perhaps its even just down to muscle memory and training or something that makes people avoid " slice their skull in two"
Well, it's down to the writer finding value in Sabine losing in a way that leaves more than her pride injured.
But if you want to be open to an in universe explanation, you can find acceptable reasons for a lot of the stabbings to make sense. Maul for instance has an audience. He could have totally sliced up Qui-Gon, but he dedicates exactly as much time to the task as is physically necessary. After that he wants to see and enjoy Obi-Wan's reaction. We could criticize him in the same way as Shin. Qui-Gon is still breathing after the fight. Who knows how he might yet interfere in the upcoming fight with Obi-Wan? So why doesn't Maul massacre the feth out of him, just to be sure?
Explanations are easy to find, if only you want to. Maul is confident that the job is done. Maul is confident that a crippled, dying Jedi isn't a problem if he wasn't one while he was still in fighting condition. Maul wants to drink in Obi-Wan's emotions as close to the moment when the unthinkable happens as possible. Maul wants to prove his skill and wants a clean kill just to demonstrate his mastery of the lightsaber.
While Star Wars isn't very graphic and we know mostly droids and ugly aliens get sliced apart because somebody has to think of the children, we do get Anakin happily slashing and slicing Tusken on his murder spree. You could ask the question, what's the difference? Ani feels unbridled rage. Maul feels cold hatred. Different emotions, different motivations, and thus different fighting styles, down to the killing blow.
You could ask the same for Shin. Who is Sabine to Shin? Not an equal, perhaps not even an upstart, but a talentless apprentice who has no business at all swinging a lightsaber. Is it necessary for Shin to massacre the feth out of Sabine? You could consider that Shin's motivation in the fight isn't to best or kill Sabine, which is a foregone conclusion, but to stroke her own ego by demonstrating her superior fighting skill and beat Sabine with as much precision as possible because it's the thing that sets them apart. Another thought is that, even if Shin makes the fight about Sabine and knows her well enough for the thought to make sense, Shin might be inclined to exhibit all her skill and martial art to humiliate Sabine as a both a Mandalorian and Jedi apprentice. A clean kill might just be superior to a sure kill depending on motivation.
Plenty of possibilities, some if which may not even apply since I'm not going to rewatch the scenes for this post. That's not the point I want to make, even if it's meant to set the mood.
I notice that the extremes of this discussion are a willingness to come up with explanations even for the most out there things on one end and derision of the idea that anything but the one, perfect way of handling a scene is at all possible. My take, prompted by creeping-deth87's stated inability to understand MDG's stance, is that people tend to be comfortable looking to suspension of disbelief as the one overruling principle that decides whether a scene makes sense or not. If the movie or show up to that point provides what's needed for that suspension, it gets a pass. If not, the scene doesn't work both in execution and intent. While it's still a somewhat subjective evaluation, execution can usually be quantified and criticized fairly easily. After all, it's all there to be watched and rewatched, zoomed in, run in slow motion, and analyzed frame by frame. Intent is not quantifiable, because you don't know the writers' and director's train of thought when they composed a scene. It's entirely subjective how much you get out of intent by pondering the various possibilities that these people had in mind, and prone to thinking in directions they never even entertained.
As I see it, relying on execution or intent to the exclusion of the other leads nowhere but to denying either the problems or solutions that go with a questionable scene. It's comfortable because you only need to look at things from your preferred angle, but I'm not of the opinion that it provides you with anything resembling the complete picture. I wouldn't even lobby for an unjustified middle ground to get a compromise for the sake of avoiding commitment to a verdict on whether a scene makes sense or not. But I do believe that asking whether a writer's idea for a scene may not have transitioned to the screen to such a degree that the original meaning got altered and no longer makes sense, and extending the benefit of the doubt because of it is as called for as taking a hard look at the execution and questioning how a completely screwed up scene could have originated in a fully thought out idea.
I like this approach because it still provides the full breadth from total nonsense to justifiable idea implemented badly, but also allows for nuance and options in the middle instead of binary choice of sucky/okay.
Spoiler:
It's also fun to find yourself somewhere in the middle because now you get to experience derision from both ends of the spectrum for leaning too far in the wrong direction.
Bobthehero wrote: Shin could have just... pulled the saber upwards rather than pull it back, bissect Sabine that way, and would have had enough time to flee, really.
This was what jumped out at me. It would have been easier to remove her lightsaber in any way other than straight-out-backwards-without-widening-the-hole. It looks contrived the same way all the lightsaber chops on the zombie STs that didn’t remove heads or limbs looked contrived. The combat was good up until then, and suddenly feels contrived and phony.
If Ahsoka was just about to show up and save Sabine, why bother with the stabbing at all? Have Shin disable or disarm Sabine only for Ahsoka to stay the killing blow. Instead we get gentle/incompetent Shin, Iron Guts Sabine, and Book of Boba Fett level stakes.
Keep in mind Shin’s mission. Recover The Map from Republic hands. That was paramount to her and Baylan’s current employer. Her sole purpose for being on Lothal in the first place.
She stabs Sabine, because Sabine would’ve been capable of pursuing her. The stab was to stop that. As we see in the clip I posted just above, Ahsoka was just pulling up at the time.
I’d argue that had Shin made a proper “you can’t get deader than that!” job of it, which in the circumstances would be the work of seconds (off with the head, maybe the limbs as well for shock value), that would only gain her one thing. Immediate, and unrelenting, pursuit by a very, very pissed off former Jedi. In a hyperspace capable shuttle. Who could easily call in those handy-dandy E-Wings we inexplicably only saw the once.
Leave Sabine possibly still alive? You’ve now left that pissed off former Jedi with a choice to make. Get straight after you, or check her friend and (not sure if Shin knew this bit though) former Padawan, seeking medical attention.
Which decision is genuinely the best to actual complete your mission? Which was the smarter move?
Is it? She had the MacGuffin. And Ahsoka was right there.
Leaving Sabine potentially still alive, Ahsoka is given a choice in her next action. Pursue Shin, or give first aid to Sabine. And whilst it would be a possibility, at that point Ahsoka wouldn’t know for certain Shin had recovered the map, putting further emphasis on checking Sabine first.
If she pursues Shin, nothing is lost in leaving Sabine not entirely completely for sure dead. And so Shin is no worse off. But if she stops to assist Sabine? Shin can make a seemingly clean get away.
Removing an arm or both legs would slow down Ahsoka even more, keep Sabine off their tail at least a few more hours (!), and not risk an instant Qwi Gonn kill like a torso shot.
Face it, she wasn’t some battlechess master placing a surgical strike for maximum long term benefit. That’s not Shin’s character, for as little as we get to know her character.
I don’t disagree. The decision I’m arguing for would be a reactionary one.
She has the item, her immediate pursuer is down, and an unknown quantity of enemy reinforcements have arrived. Getting the heck out of dodge was a valid move. Leaving Sabine alive, or at least not hanging around longer than was absolutely necessary makes sense.
What we can’t really take into account is Force Stuff, like Shin perhaps being able to sense it was just Ahsoka in the shuttle. It’s not demonstrated on screen, and I feel would just be a point of contention for the sake of having a point of contention.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’d argue what we see of Shin across the series is a young Force user not entirely confident in their own abilities.
Not crushed with doubt or burdened with indecision, but not quite the full shilling in the self confidence department.
Which may be why Baylan cut her loose in the end. Not in a “finally I can get shot of the dead weight”, more “it’s time you left the nest”
You need to understand that stabbing with a lightsaber requires A Lot of discipline, on both the stabber as well as the stabbee’s parts. You need that blade to go in really straight, then hold it very still, and after being stabbed you Also need to hold very still. It’s not a physical blade that will move with you, and you’re not a reinforced bulkhead that will resist it’s cutting, any movement by either participant and this becomes less of a stab and more of a slice.
"What's going on with Ahsoka. What's her deal?" "Well she stands around with her arms crossed and a little smirk on her face." "Ok, ok. What else?" "Not much." "Oh... ok..." "Very stoic and smirky and never anything else."
God... this video nails everything that was wrong with Ahsoka, and does it in only 6 minutes. I'd've though you'd need longer to get 'em all.
Nah. This and the Honest Trailer left a lot of meat on the bone. They pulled some of their punches. And I’m saying that as someone who didn’t hate the show.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Asajj is back! Fingers crossed this retcons her currently canonical death. A death for Mangst of a Jedi nobody really knows or gives a fig about.
There's a statement floating about online from someone or other on the show stating that any new storyline involving Asajj will fit in with the events of Dark Disciple. So whatever is going on with her, it's not a retcon.
That being said, she's a character descended from an order of necromancers, in a tv show about clones. They don't need a retcon to reintroduce her.
Yay, Bad Batch. And not a very long wait either. Nice.
So what does Asajj die of? If it's anything less than falling down a bottomless pit into an exploding reactor while being stabbed with a lightsaber, twice, I think she can be excused for failing to die real dead.
I think she dies to give motivation to Quinlan “who?” Voss.
A side character’s side character. Or one of the most interesting characters to come out of Clone Wars. Someone who’s been Jedi, sort-of-Sith, sort-of-Night Sister. Someone who’s only ever been used by others.
I really hope they’re faking us out on it not being a retcon.
The best thing about Quinlan Vos is watching YouTube try to explain why he's going to be important in each upcoming Star Wars property to try and justify him. And yes, Asajj's death is a complete waste, particularly given how much they've done with Ahsoka.
I would kill for Asajj to appear in Ahsoka s2. Ideally as anti-hero, but an otherwise important ally.
Even if it’s the three from the other Galaxy resurrecting Asajj, and then learning “hey, see Thrawn’s former boss, total phallus. Arranged the extinction of our people because we were a threat to his power”.
LunarSol wrote: The best thing about Quinlan Vos is watching YouTube try to explain why he's going to be important in each upcoming Star Wars property to try and justify him. And yes, Asajj's death is a complete waste, particularly given how much they've done with Ahsoka.
It's not so bad. She got better, apparently.
And it may not actually be that bad. Maul suffered a mild case of death and in spite of the WTFness of bringing him back, we got some great appearances out of it, especially in Rebels. Might be worth overlooking Asajj's temporary demise in time if she gets the same treatment.
LunarSol wrote: The best thing about Quinlan Vos is watching YouTube try to explain why he's going to be important in each upcoming Star Wars property to try and justify him. And yes, Asajj's death is a complete waste, particularly given how much they've done with Ahsoka.
It's not so bad. She got better, apparently. .
Or got replaced by her neutral twin, who got all the hair.
Honestly, this feels... weird. Random insertion of edgy 'was everything' background character so the show about storm troopers has more lightsabers. Seriously, her bio reads like she was just in every single force cult the writers ever thought up. Jedi, Sith, Nightsisters, etc, plus oh, a bounty hunter as well? This was somebody's Mary Sue and somebody up top rightfully took an axe to her. Now someone was worried about the season 2 ratings of Bad Batch and just shoved her in for a ratings bump (probably for just 1-2 episodes at the mid-season slump)
Gert wrote: It's also the whole "was it in a show/film" angle.
I mean, it kind of was. Dark Disciple was written from early production material for a bunch of Clone Wars episodes that they didn't manage to add to the final season.
Yeah, but we know that only the films and shows are considered when it comes to Star Wars.
Anything else is "supplementary" and gets binned when it's not wanted anymore because they can take certain creative liberties.
Gert wrote: Yeah, but we know that only the films and shows are considered when it comes to Star Wars.
Anything else is "supplementary" and gets binned when it's not wanted anymore because they can take certain creative liberties.
That was the case when Lucas was in charge. Since Disney's takeover, they started considering everything canon - their whole thing was that it was all one big combined universe, as that encourages people to buy the books and comics as well as watching the shows and movies.
Even without that, though, Dark Disciple is a bit of an outlier as it was material that was supposed to be in the show in the first place.
LunarSol wrote: The best thing about Quinlan Vos is watching YouTube try to explain why he's going to be important in each upcoming Star Wars property to try and justify him. And yes, Asajj's death is a complete waste, particularly given how much they've done with Ahsoka.
It's not so bad. She got better, apparently. .
Or got replaced by her neutral twin, who got all the hair.
Honestly, this feels... weird. Random insertion of edgy 'was everything' background character so the show about storm troopers has more lightsabers. Seriously, her bio reads like she was just in every single force cult the writers ever thought up. Jedi, Sith, Nightsisters, etc, plus oh, a bounty hunter as well? This was somebody's Mary Sue and somebody up top rightfully took an axe to her. Now someone was worried about the season 2 ratings of Bad Batch and just shoved her in for a ratings bump (probably for just 1-2 episodes at the mid-season slump)
I suppose if you read a synopsis, the background overload feels real. I never got that impression from watching Clone Wars, though.
Asajj spends the first three or so seasons as a Sith assassin and she is very much defined by it. When she gets dropped by Dooku, she returns to the only home she has left, but pretty much to do a typical Sith thing and go on a quest for revenge. She isn't really comfortable there and never gets the chance to change that when the Nightsisters get wiped out. She's wanted by the Jedi/Republic and Dooku/the Separatists, and has very specific professional skills. At that point she has few options but to work a shady job. I mean, she could take up farming in the Outer Rim, but that doesn't seem in character for her. Even at the start of her bounty hunting career she's into stabbing people and taking revenge when the opportunity arises. That only gets tempered later.
That she's trained as a Jedi isn't even worth mentioning. At the time that's just what happens to a force sensitive who catches the attention of the Jedi.
All of this is to say that as presented in the show, the progression felt perfectly natural to me.
Agreed on the motivation for including her, though.
Her journey isn’t an especially rapid one. And the changes that take place are rarely those of her own volition. Overall, she’s the victim of the machinations of others, only kept around as long as she’s immediately useful, then discarded out of hand.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: After the going-nowhere-doing-nothing tail chasing doldrums of Season 2?
I happened to watch the first two seasons again last month. I was in the mood and blissfully unaware that season three was only a month and a half away, so it wasn't prep or anything. Good timing though, albeit by complete accident.
Season one is better because it is a lot more focused, but season two flows much better when watched in one go instead of the weekly drop. Might not be the most impactful thing to say since I've been reasonably positive about season two to begin with, but it feels less meandering without the time to dwell on each individual episode. It isn't focused, but the overall story development across the season doesn't feel as dragged out.
That said, I expect season three to be more focused again, what with it being the final season. Seems to hold true so far.
I know it's to tie in with the very bad sequels but it also does some cool things linking with some interesting ideas from Legends, even though that stuff was never part of my SW circle growing up.
Omega’s voice I think is doomed to always annoy me, but this moved at a decent pace and brought the rest of the show along for the road, which is definitely pleasing.
I’m beginning to wonder if we can simply ignore S2 entirely? Outside of a couple of episodes, there’s not a lot to see.
Certainly it lacked real impact moments like the truly sublime destruction of Kamino, which was an absolutely beautifully executed scene.
I’m beginning to wonder if we can simply ignore S2 entirely? Outside of a couple of episodes, there’s not a lot to see.
I felt like the recap basically covered the entire thing well. I'd still recommend seeing the two Crosshair episodes and.... yeah, that's about it.
That feels a bit limiting to me. I'd at least consider the Coruscant episodes and the finale. Maybe even the one with the Zillo beast There's some good state of the Empire stuff in there, and in the case of the latter more stuff on the cloning program that fits with the main plot.
The standalone episodes with more or less personal impact on the main characters don't bother me and I'd still watch them, but if you want to skip anything in pursuit of a streamlined experience, thematically they are least relevant to the cloning program plot.
It does cover necessary ground, the Batch learning to trust Crosshair, and also work around the loss of Tech.
But it feels like it could’ve been done in a more interesting way, because this was a bit hollow. Not to mention the “oh we’ll get that from this abandoned base I know, HALP BIG MONSTER” is a trope I’m a bit tired of. And no, Wrecker commenting on that only compounds the issue.
Hopefully we’ll get something more involving next week, because this was barely half a tea cake.
It does cover necessary ground, the Batch learning to trust Crosshair, and also work around the loss of Tech.
But it feels like it could’ve been done in a more interesting way, because this was a bit hollow. Not to mention the “oh we’ll get that from this abandoned base I know, HALP BIG MONSTER” is a trope I’m a bit tired of. And no, Wrecker commenting on that only compounds the issue.
Hopefully we’ll get something more involving next week, because this was barely half a tea cake.
I feel positive about the latest episode because the narrative structure in this season has returned to the way the first season handled things. The overarching season plot exists in each episode and has relevance regardless of any side quest of the week material that serves as backdrop.
Watching Star Wars Rebels from the beginning again.
Whilst probably still the weakest of its seasons, Season One is better than I recall. Perhaps a bit heavy on the comedy side, but there is plenty of world building and character development in it.
Certainly it’s much less filler than Bad Batch S2.
Rebels is much better in hindsight because you know its going somewhere. A lot of why season 1 was rough as it was airing is just that there's no way to know that its ever going to be more than some troublemakers on a sandbox planet getting away from the bumbling officer who shakes his fist and vows to get them next week. Shoehorned cameos do little to shake this vibe. It's really not until Grand Inquisitor is introduced that the show starts to tip its hand and begins to become the Clone Wars follow up that removes the inconsequential facade.
I think the other difference is that the Rebel's target audience was kids.
Not that BB or CW weren't cos y'know toys and Lego but the tone is much more similar to the early seasons of CW and I think that's what jarred people the most.
Going from what were objectively dark and serious stories towards the end of CW to "Haha look at the funny officer who can't catch a kid" in Rebels, is tonal whiplash.
Then once the initial stages are out of the way, we get the build-up of "Oh word the Empire is kind of annoyed" to "Oh hell they just killed the comedy relief Imperials".
Fair comments, and I find myself agreeing, especially that foreknowledge of what’s to come adds much needed context. And definitely an excellent observation that picking up from the best bits of Clone Wars wouldn’t have helped a fledgling show in its “getting to know you” period,
Just finished Season 2. And it’s remarkable just how quickly it ramps up.
There’s also nice touches like changes to character design. Wounds become scars, hair styles change. Relatively minor as such things go, but they help to show passage of time and even character growth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ooh! Bad Batch treating us to a science fiction double feature today!
E6 was really cool. Lots going on, without particularly raising or changing the stakes. Also a very sweet ship debut. Love a new starship, me.
E7 is a direct continuation. And also pretty good. One scene felt a bit forced, but overall it’s fun.
This might be our first Star Wars media not linked to the exploits of the Skywalkers?
We’ve had bits one step removed (Mando, Ahsoka, Rebels). But I think this is the first about as entirely removed as you can get whilst still including the Jedi Order?
So is this set in that distant past of the high republic?
I really hope so.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: This might be our first Star Wars media not linked to the exploits of the Skywalkers?
We’ve had bits one step removed (Mando, Ahsoka, Rebels). But I think this is the first about as entirely removed as you can get whilst still including the Jedi Order?
I wait for the final episode to introduce some starwars street where you see Kenobi's ancestor or some gak. Hopefully not. But I am not convinced that Filoni and co can help themselves.
It's set about 100 years before the Phantom Menace so any character that's more than 100 in TPM could in theory show up at some point but yes it's nice not to be tied to the Skywalker Saga.
The trailer seems to cover 3 time periods - Master Sol appears with short hair in an earlier scene, then with longer hair in the class scene with a young Mae, then later fighting the older Mae.
On the other hand, a lot of shows and movies suffer from skipping steps and making things seem trivial that would benefit from some exposition. Like the second episode, I'd rather have the quest for knowledge shown if that knowledge (secret base, M-count thingy) is made out to be a secret that is known only to specific groups the protagonists have no connection to.
You can certainly argue whether it should be done in this specific way, but at least as far as I'm concerned it's a good thing that it is there. As a matter of principle.
Fine enough episode, but a bit filler. Fun but kind of unnecessary.
I do appreciate that Omega's very obvious special status was left unused long enough to make me genuinely think maybe they weren't going to go there. They've done a nice job building it gradually as something for the character to discover organically rather than the usual "you're special and I can teach you" route they usually go with force sensitives.
Finally Ventress returns. However, I dunno if that’s now a retcon, given she was bumped off in a novel which was, if memory serves, derived from unproduced Clone Wars scripts?
I hope it is, she’s far too interesting a character to kill just to make a former Jedi nobody really cares about all sad in his feels.
LunarSol wrote: Ah, the EU. Full of such character concepts like.... what if Wedge... was a Jedi? or... what if Han.... was a Jedi?
I don't recall either of those being a thing in the EU. Or any real amount of anything similar. Might have been a comic thing, as I never followed those, but they weren't really a part of the EU, aside from the bits (like Lumiya) that were retconned in later.
Crosshair is consistently one of the better characters in the show since the end of S1. It helps that he actually has a character arc rather than merely living in service to the main plot.
As of the most recent episode, yes. Ventress' arc was one of the cooler character arcs in the latter seasons of Clone Wars and seeing her return and retain what makes her interesting is great. I liked the hints they dropped at the end of the episode, and how it plays into both Ventress' background as a character and where she wants to go in the future.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Wookieepedia suggests this may be a retcon, as Bad Batch is set after Asajj’s death in the novel I mentioned.
...to which I would say again - she's a character descended from an order of necromancers, in a tv show about clones. They don't need a retcon to reintroduce her.
For what it's worth, according to social media Filoni has said that her return will be addressed elsewhere. It's entirely possible that they haven't actually figured it out yet and just threw her in for the hell of it with the intention of figuring it out later, although this series does include a plotline involving something called 'Project Necromancer'... Presumably to do with setting up the machinery for Palpatine to eventually return, somehow, but could be a tie-in to Assaj as well.
Former Jedi, former Sith Assassin (or Assassin aligned with a Sith Master), now a rogue from both.
She and Ahsoka both have real potential when it comes to exploring the balance of the force, and why the two extremes presented thus far clearly only cause imbalance.
Does anyone feel like Omega has been captured, taken by the Empire, and rescued one too many times already and it almost feels like we could have skipped half these season if we were just going to go rescue her from the planet she was already on to begin with?
Overall S3 has a better and far less tedious balance than S2, but I can't help but 'let's just reset to Season 3 episode 1' is some of that S2 writing coming back to be lazy again.
Does anyone feel like Omega has been captured, taken by the Empire, and rescued one too many times already and it almost feels like we could have skipped half these season if we were just going to go rescue her from the planet she was already on to begin with?
Overall S3 has a better and far less tedious balance than S2, but I can't help but 'let's just reset to Season 3 episode 1' is some of that S2 writing coming back to be lazy again.
This is the only recent SW giving that has me somewhat interested, but I'm very wary of them doing some sort of redemption arc for Bariss to do another 180 ala Reva to explain why we don't see her in Rebels with her going through the Inquisitorial trials as some sort of long con to try and kill Vader and die in the process or something. We'll see, but Disney has a pretty terrible track record of showing the perspective from the Imperial side without the protagonists going rogue shortly after.
Nice. I like what Tales of the Jedi added. Good to get an Empire version of that.
I did wonder what happens to Barriss. I can see Grimskul's concern that we're getting the Mirialan version of Reva. Too much of the turncoat Imperial nonsense in the past not to be paranoid about it. But I hope they'll refrain. I imagine Barriss is still going to try to take on Vader, but her motivation should be different. She murdered a bunch of people before the Empire was even a thing. That feels more like Maul territory, path of vengeance that only leads to self-destruction.
Does anyone feel like Omega has been captured, taken by the Empire, and rescued one too many times already and it almost feels like we could have skipped half these season if we were just going to go rescue her from the planet she was already on to begin with?
Overall S3 has a better and far less tedious balance than S2, but I can't help but 'let's just reset to Season 3 episode 1' is some of that S2 writing coming back to be lazy again.
Omega only got "captured" this time around. She's infiltrating the cloning facility in preparation of the attack to free the clones and burn the place to the ground.
The repetition is that she's still great at getting herself into trouble, but the circumstances of her capture and the following goals aren't comparable to earlier captures.
Ok, got it watched! Gotta say the “captured” really is just plain old captured. I assumed they were going to have come up with that plan and arranged for her to be found ahead of time, but no, discovered and cornered, turning yourself in doesn’t count as being on your terms. Tracking device immediately found, and backup tracking plan failed. This is full on captured. Also, man, she should have just carried two trackers. Scan her, she’s got a tracker, hands it over, alright let’s go, never checked to see if she still had one. I assume doctor regrets clone will be the one to save her this time and get a message out.
I don’t think any of them are getting out. At all.
Think about it. Project Necromancer continues into Mando Season 3. And presumably ties into Rise of Skywalker when Palpatine proves rumours of his demise had been greatly exaggerated.
Also? £10 says that super trooper on their case is Tech. Who isn’t dead, has been brainwashed and upgraded into something like the first Darktrooper.
I'll stick with "captured". Last thing we see of Omega, she sits back and meditates. I suspect that she's going to be a Force beacon Asajj can pick up to find her. And since Asajj is the closest tie Hunter has to the clone base and abducted M-count subjects, it stands to reason he'd go to her first to save Omega. I don't doubt that once back at base, Emerie is going to help Omega, but I don't think she's the one to contact the Batch.
As for none of them making out, come on Doc. Omega is a kid. You can't just kill a kid. *looks nervously at Anakin*
I could see the Bad Batch die getting the other clones out and blowing up the base. My guess is that they're successful but somehow a copy of the research is saved by a clone or droid or just buried but recoverable. The project is on hold for a while due to the lack of skilled scientists and research subjects, and is later picked up by Gideon.
AduroT wrote: Ok, got it watched! Gotta say the “captured” really is just plain old captured. I assumed they were going to have come up with that plan and arranged for her to be found ahead of time, but no, discovered and cornered, turning yourself in doesn’t count as being on your terms. Tracking device immediately found, and backup tracking plan failed. This is full on captured. Also, man, she should have just carried two trackers. Scan her, she’s got a tracker, hands it over, alright let’s go, never checked to see if she still had one. I assume doctor regrets clone will be the one to save her this time and get a message out.
It's quite literally the same thing that's already happened twice already.
Anyone else think Omega is Rey's genetic mother? Like... Not that she is going to actually give birth to Rey (i don't think the timeline quite works for that but it could). But more that they use genetic samples from her to produce a child that is actually force sensitive and not strictly a clone.
They keep star wars streeting and i think this is about as starwars street as you can get.
Lance845 wrote: Anyone else think Omega is Rey's genetic mother? Like... Not that she is going to actually give birth to Rey (i don't think the timeline quite works for that but it could). But more that they use genetic samples from her to produce a child that is actually force sensitive and not strictly a clone.
They keep star wars streeting and i think this is about as starwars street as you can get.
Rey's father is the Palpatine clone though you could argue that makes Omega Rey's aunt?.
Lance845 wrote: Anyone else think Omega is Rey's genetic mother? Like... Not that she is going to actually give birth to Rey (i don't think the timeline quite works for that but it could). But more that they use genetic samples from her to produce a child that is actually force sensitive and not strictly a clone.
They keep star wars streeting and i think this is about as starwars street as you can get.
Rey's father is the Palpatine clone though you could argue that makes Omega Rey's aunt?.
As though Palpatine wouldn't attempt to "breed" a male and female clone of himself to create a super force sensitive body for his conciousness.
I honestly can’t say I feel invested in any of the characters in the show.
All it achieved for me was bringing back Ventriss. Who let’s face it is back for a reason, and I look forward to finding out what that reason is.
The Bad Batch at the start: We have an intriguing premise, but in all honesty not one iota of an idea where to go with it please buy Disney+ suckers this drivel doesn't sell itself it needs your blind faith to even pretend it can fly!
The Bad Batch at the end: We never found any way to go with it thanks for buying Disney+ suckers we have private jets now.
In a less mean spirited sense, I can only say that as a show that started as a spinoff no one really asked for, the show spun a lot of wheel, retreaded a lot of its own uninteresting ground, and I guess the ending is about as good as any ending for this space filling show could have really been. It was never truly bad, but it definitely wasn't good. 5 mehs out of meh.
In the future, a study of the show could be a great example of how a lot of streaming content is just there to fill time, and openly question if it could have ever survived in a competitive environment that wasn't a closed box people had already paid for.
I quite enjoyed the finale. Season one was good. Season two spent way too much time meandering around with random filler. Season three got back on track since they knew they didn’t have meandering time anymore and was good again.
Spoiler:
Nothing in the finale struck me as too terribly contrived. Characters got to show off some growth. Surprised we didn’t lose anyone though, but they didn’t make it out in one piece. Wrapped up most everything rather nicely.
I quite enjoyed it. Not least because they managed to surprise me on two fronts -
Spoiler:
For one, after all of the hints and build up, making Omega into just a catalyst for making force sensitive clones was ultimately much more interesting than having her become Ventris' apprentice.
...and for two, right up until the end of the finale fight, I was still waiting for one of the evil commando clones to take off his helmet and reveal a resurrected and brainwashed Tech. Always a nice surprise for a dead character to stay dead, particularly when their death is such an important part of the other characters' growth.
Of course, this being Star Wars, that doesn't mean they won't still bring him back later, but here's hoping they won't.
I have to say, I really enjoyed this one. Not been the biggest fan of the series. The backdoor pilot was clunky, the series felt pretty forced, but season 1 had some interesting stories about the decommissioning of the clones. Season 2 was almost a total waste outside of a couple key Crosshair episodes and season 3 has been significantly better focused but pretty safe. I've enjoyed it as a weekly dose of fun Star Wars content, but not something I'd binge.
The finale though really worked for me. The stakes were high without being world ending, the enemies fairly competent and the plot armor low. They really did a great job showing how every character has grown through the series and the final standoff was really well paced and executed. A nice, bittersweet send off for the cast that left me more fond of the series and its characters in hindsight than I ever actually was in the moment. Really strong conclusion to a series I was pretty lukewarm on otherwise.
insaniak wrote: I quite enjoyed it. Not least because they managed to surprise me on two fronts -
Spoiler:
For one, after all of the hints and build up, making Omega into just a catalyst for making force sensitive clones was ultimately much more interesting than having her become Ventris' apprentice.
...and for two, right up until the end of the finale fight, I was still waiting for one of the evil commando clones to take off his helmet and reveal a resurrected and brainwashed Tech. Always a nice surprise for a dead character to stay dead, particularly when their death is such an important part of the other characters' growth.
Of course, this being Star Wars, that doesn't mean they won't still bring him back later, but here's hoping they won't.
Spoiler:
This is 100% what I thought was going to happen when the clone that chops off Crosshair's hand loses his helmet mid battle. He even has Tech's red goggle helmet style. Part of me wonders if that had been the plan but got scrapped at some point. I went back and you can see his head in a few scenes but its foggy and I'm pretty sure its just a standard clone face. Wrecker ends up putting his head through a server or something as the last we see him.
This is 100% what I thought was going to happen when the clone that chops off Crosshair's hand loses his helmet mid battle. He even has Tech's red goggle helmet style. Part of me wonders if that had been the plan but got scrapped at some point. I went back and you can see his head in a few scenes but its foggy and I'm pretty sure its just a standard clone face. Wrecker ends up putting his head through a server or something as the last we see him.
Spoiler:
I'm torn between wondering if that guy was originally going to be Tech and changed at the last minute, or if the helmet was a deliberate troll by the animators...
I did spend a big chunk of this episode legitimately concerned that they were going to kill off Wrecker, though. And that's kind of cool... it's nice to be both invested enough in the story for that worry to exist, and for the story to have set it up properly for that to even be a thing. Plot armour is fine in moderation, but sometimes there have to be real stakes.
They cant have killed Wrecker. The funny one is always the first or the last to die, and since Tech died first that means Wrecker has to live the longest to see all his friends die before him and have his humor fade.
I got the impression that the black masked super unique clones were meant to be clones of clones with implanted additional loyalty and cruelty. The whole kill team of super special soldiers coming after them seemed like copies of them. Like they were fighting their dark halves. The one the sniper was fighting on the waterfall who was another sniper was going to be revealed to be a copy of the sniper. Not just a copy of the standard clone but copies of the bad batch specifically.
I liked Tales of the Jedi because the short episodes added something interesting about characters who already had a significant presence.
Tales of the Empire uses the same approach on characters that don't have that, and it didn't work for me. Especially in Morgan's case. In Mando and Ahsoka she's pretty much a stepping stone to Thrawn, and a speed bump after he shows up. She's too much of a willing tool to others to be interesting in her own right. Tales of the Empire largely just emphasizes what we know from the live action shows. I think it could have added substance to the character if it for instance explored how missing her chance at revenge on Grievous actually turned into revenge on her sweeping, ill defined idea of who her enemies are. Instead the show only dwells on how she gets worse over time, which we didn't need because Yoda already told us how it works forty years ago.
I'm willing to cut Barriss's half a little more slack. Her episodes reinforce a reading of her actions in Clone Wars that were previously left open to interpretation, so at least we have confirmation that she didn't fall to the dark side so much as tried to hold to a personal interpretation of Jedi ideals throughout. Which at least suggests strength of character. That's something.
Largely agree. I enjoyed Morgan's context. These bits weave nicely between Rebels, Mando and Ahsoka while not feeling nearly as Star Wars street as that would imply. Linking her back to the Defender program is a pretty organic explanation to Thrawn that made her less one dimensional. I liked it, even if it wasn't particularly necessary or noteworthy.
The Barriss half I almost found more interesting just to give 4th Sister some real screen time. This one felt a lot more purposeful, even if I was a bit disappointed it was overall a lit by the numbers.
Bariss did commit treason and blow up a hanger, which is what Ashoka was accused and then acquitted of.
I was really prepared to like this series, the fall of Dooku bits from the previous was fantastic and was expecting this to be the same. Was pretty disappointed all in all though.
I kind of like that Barriss’ view, if not actions, were vindicated. The Jedi had become corrupt.
We also get some nice character development, where she abandoned the Order, not the Ideals. And there’s a pretty strong argument her role as “Wise Old Healer That Lives In Isolation” is pretty Jedi.
Elspeth’s tales were, taking on board the above comments, pretty good. About as smooth an “ahhh, but she was always there!” retcon as we could hope for, where she suffered the slings and arrows of well known eras, but didn’t play an especially important role in them.
Let's not forget that at that point the Empire was looking for willing and suitable candidates to join the Inquisitorius. Barriss was already in custody and her disloyalty to the Jedi order had been established. Order 66 would have no impact unless the prison guards were specifically commanded to murder her, and there's no reason to do that.
It could be that Order 66 is partially dependent on a Clone's perspective. Official or not, the 501st are far more likely to see Ahsoka as a Jedi than Barriss.
In the comics a Jedi on the run got Clones to open fire on Vader and a couple Inquisitors by naming and identifying them as former Jedi then invoking Order 66.
AduroT wrote: In the comics a Jedi on the run got Clones to open fire on Vader and a couple Inquisitors by naming and identifying them as former Jedi then invoking Order 66.
The fiend!
Makes me wonder if that's an old comic or a new one. I got the impression that since at least Clone Wars season seven Order 66 is more nuanced than an irresistible imperative to kill Jedi on sight.
Makes me wonder if that's an old comic or a new one. I got the impression that since at least Clone Wars season seven Order 66 is more nuanced than an irresistible imperative to kill Jedi on sight.
You have that backwards. The 'irresistible imperative' was from Clone Wars. Before the last couple of seasons introduced the obedience chip, the clones gunning down the Jedi was just training and following the chain of command. So going after Vader just because he was once a Jedi wouldn't have made sense, pre - Clone Wars.
And in the old EU, very few people even knew Vader was Anakin. Seems to be fairly common knowledge in the new continuity.
Makes me wonder if that's an old comic or a new one. I got the impression that since at least Clone Wars season seven Order 66 is more nuanced than an irresistible imperative to kill Jedi on sight.
You have that backwards. The 'irresistible imperative' was from Clone Wars. Before the last couple of seasons introduced the obedience chip, the clones gunning down the Jedi was just training and following the chain of command. So going after Vader just because he was once a Jedi wouldn't have made sense, pre - Clone Wars.
And in the old EU, very few people even knew Vader was Anakin. Seems to be fairly common knowledge in the new continuity.
I was thinking along the lines of Clone Wars season seven being post Disney takeover and new continuity while season six (the one with the malfunctioning clone) was still old continuity.
I'm basically unfamiliar with books and comics of the old EU and couldn't say how it was handled there.
Vader was also not a Jedi when Order 66 happened and the Clones also referred to Sidious as "My Lord" which is not what they would have called him when he was Supreme Chancellor.
I prefer the idea of the Inhibitor Chips in this sense because they are pre-programmed to know Palpatine is Sidious and that his apprentice was not to be counted among the Jedi, in this case Vader rather than Tyrannus or even potentially Maul.
Geifer wrote: I was thinking along the lines of Clone Wars season seven being post Disney takeover and new continuity while season six (the one with the malfunctioning clone) was still old continuity.
Clone Wars was always more tied to the continuity than the EU material was, and I strongly suspect that the last seasons were already mapped out before the Disney takeover. At the very least I vaguely recall mention of the outline being run past Lucas for his approval. So I don't think there was ever a change of direction, there.
The obedience chip wasn't a Disney addition, it was a necessary addition to deal with the fact that the cartoon had given the clones too much personality and free will. In their original guise, order 66 worked because of the clones' unthinking obedience... they were able to take down the Jedi because they just did what they were told to do before most Jedi were able to register them as a threat. But by the time we got a few seasons into the cartoon, it became increasingly unlikely that a lot of these clones would have willingly turned on their Jedi commanders. The 501st certainly wouldn't have. So the obedience chip, from the time it was introduced, was supposed to be the hook that allowed the clones to turn on the jedi even if they really, really didn't want to.
Gert wrote: Vader was also not a Jedi when Order 66 happened ...
That was never relayed to the Clones, on screen at least.
...and the Clones also referred to Sidious as "My Lord" which is not what they would have called him when he was Supreme Chancellor.
The Chancellor is referred to as 'My Lord'.
From Attack of the Clones -
A muted BUZZER SOUNDS. A hologram of an AIDE, DAR WAC, appears on the Chancellor's desk.
DAR WAC
The loyalist committee has arrived, my Lord.
If you remember the original Battlefront II, the EU used to present the end of the Jedi Order as something the clones always knew was coming and kept to themselves, but in the old EU the clones in general were much more robotic/unemotive except for the clone commandos and the arc troopers who had more independence.
The Clone Wars tv series altered this buy giving the clones a lot more personality and making them likeable, and I guess the obedience chip was how they explained how the likeable clone soldiers we spent most of the series with ended up killing the likeable Jedi heroes we spent most of the series with.
Getting a wee bit hype for The Acolyte now, as we’re a little under four weeks from launch.
Of particular interest is outside of Yoda, who we’ve not seen in the trailers, the time period means All New Characters.
I very much suspect it’ll touch on Palpatine’s overall line of succession in one way or another. But to have a lot of unexpected erm…expected? I’m excited.
Still wondering what happened to Skellington Crew though!
Grey Templar wrote: It would have been a cool idea and experience, if they hadn't made it so exorbitantly priced. There was zero reason for that.
It’s especially galling in light of all the Spirit Airlines nickel-and-diming Disney added on top of that, as well as the corner-cut production of the attraction, from the rooms to the photographers to the bus to the app. They spent a lot of money (and charged even more) to make that experience feel so cheap.
It feels like it was entirely a margins problem. Similar costs as the parks and hotels but nowhere near the capacity. I'm not sure if the numbers changed or if they were just ignored early on, but almost every problem feels like someone trying to squeeze the margins.
I went on a Star Wars binge of old shows out of sheer boredom.
The Clone Wars TV Series
Parts of this show have aged really well. Others no so much. To my surprise though I found many parts that I thought dumb when I first saw them years ago not so bad years later. The finale is actually better than I recall. The sections with Maul and Ahsoka and Ventress in particularly have aged really well. Maybe a bit of confirmation bias there as all these characters went on to be very good toward the end of the series and have good appearances in other material.
Rebels TV Series
Huh. I remember this show being better. Or at least I enjoyed it a lot more when it was new (suppose it helped that it was good Star Wars content at a time there wasn't much of that). The first season in particular is just so dull now aside from the start and end of the season. From there the show does get better with Ezra and Kanan's character arcs being stand outs. Thrawn is still great in the show. How Maul was used in S2 and S3 was great and I still love his final confrontation with Obi-Wan. Just so well done. I still find the end of the series a bit rushed but it is what it is.
Resistance TV Series
I remember why they canceled this show now. It's just... not good.
Rogue One Movie
This is still the best of the movies Disney has produced imo. Even with its flaws, it's just a much better and more entertaining production than the sequel trilogy or Solo (and I still think Solo was unfairly maligned and suffered for how gakky the sequel trilogy was).
The Mandalorian
Bit of a rebels treatment on this one to my surprise. Season 1 is still excellent but 2 is a bit less good aside from it's last few episodes. Season 3 is still meh.
Andor TV Series.
I still think this series has way too much padding. The first and last three episodes are the best parts. The middle bits drags 1 episode plots into 3 episodes for no reason.
Ahsoka TV Series
I tried it, and decided maybe another time after the first episode hinged on cliches and recycling old plot devices. Why is that every person in the Star Wars universe who is beyond all known space/trying not to be found inexplicably has a map that leads right to them? Though I simultaneously appreciate the series skipping to the start of interesting things, while resenting that it does that just to go do boring things with a bunch of changes to Sabine's character I still don't like. Another time mayhaps.
I don't usually respond well to bringing a character back to life who was cut in half and thrown down a bottomless pit. It's a most ridiculous thing to do. But they went on to do a lot of great stuff with Maul, so for once I'm actually glad it happened. It's one of my top examples of turning questionable elements around and making them better with added material. I feel much the same about Anakin. Ahsoka is great by herself, but her relationship with Clone Wars Anakin also makes movie Anakin better. It's about the only hope I see for the sequel trilogy. There's a lot of stupid to correct, and it looks like they're doing it by working Project Necromancer into the various shows we got since. That's a start, I guess.
On the map thing, for me it's all about implementation.
Star whales traveled through hyperspace before man-made craft did. That makes them an interesting subject of study. Studies were done by a cult of Force sensitives seeking knowledge. The knowledge is locked behind code specific to the cult and requires a device to read that operates on cult magic. Thrawn was last seen abducted by animals that jumped into hyperspace. Animals have habits that were recorded and, for lack of any other clue, are the best shot at following Thrawn's trail. The existence of the map is plausible and there's a logical progression from the building blocks to the solution. To me that makes the map a perfectly reasonable addition to Ahsoka's plot.
By contrast I have no idea how or why the map in Force Awakens exists, other than that the writers wanted something for the heroes to chase after. I don't know if there is supplemental material that tries to explain it in some way, but from what I remember seeing in the movie the map is complete nonsense.
It’s established The First Order had part of it, looted from the Jedi Temple, presumably in the aftermath of Order 66 and the establishment of The Empire. And at some point, someone had stolen an important part of it.
We know Jedi Masters had such authority, because the map to Kamino had also been deleted. So, presumably, some farsighted or otherwise paranoid Jedi Master decided to fragment the map to Ahch-To, it being important to the found of the Jedi Order.
We can also safely assume Luke came across the map prior to his exile, and stored the missing fragment in R2.
By contrast I have no idea how or why the map in Force Awakens exists, other than that the writers wanted something for the heroes to chase after. I don't know if there is supplemental material that tries to explain it in some way, but from what I remember seeing in the movie the map is complete nonsense.
I just saw an excellent analysis on Ep9 and how its various pitches evolved into the final product. The conclusion it reaches is that a lot of what we got is a result of swapping out the original mcguffins and not replacing them with something that ties in to the places the characters were going for the originals. I find it interesting that, while a dramatically better film, IMO, Ep7's weakest element is by far its mcguffin. Kind of an interesting element to get consistently wrong. 8ths isn't great either... or at least, its not particularly well implemented.
By contrast I have no idea how or why the map in Force Awakens exists, other than that the writers wanted something for the heroes to chase after. I don't know if there is supplemental material that tries to explain it in some way, but from what I remember seeing in the movie the map is complete nonsense.
Its even worse when they just show the map, and you realize that the 'missing' area of space is relatively small and easily searched by anyone with a couple ships, let alone a fleet.
While the space is just voided out on that map, other star charts would have all the systems (and hyperlanes) and the large map has a blatant red path indicating the entrance vector you'd follow on a search.
There are similarly sized stretches of space on the same map with about 20 named systems, so the search immediately seems not particularly arduous.
A passing knowledge of astronomy + a decent knowledge of star wars' astrophysics seemed to escape whoever wrote the plot and whoever got tasked for 'realizing' the map art.
---
There's also just... not any reason for the map to exist at all. Luke's goal was to hide from everybody. Sending out an 'X marks the spot' map with no other purpose beyond letting people find him is just... stupid.
Its that weird fantasy trope of making a trapped but accessible vault so people can get the thing they aren't supposed to have, and then making riddles and puzzles for the sole purpose of bypassing the traps.
The issue with star maps is Star Wars is that the galaxy is simultaneously treated like it is small and you can literally travel from one end of it to the other in hours while at the same time having massive unexplored areas such that planets can go centuries or millennia without anyone going there.
Even with the stated reason of "Hyperspace is potentially dangerous and you need to map out paths" isn't an obstacle when you could easily make a bunch of droid controlled scout ships to just go out and map the whole galaxy, and indeed people have done exactly that.
Star Wars tries to simultaneously be a decayed ancient setting like 40k where technology is anachronistic and almost mystical, but also super common and highly developed like Star Trek, and it just ends up making the people who live in this setting look extra dumb.
I don't think decayed is the right term. It's more that it tries to be a lived in setting. The idea has always been that the core worlds are rather opulent and modern and the farther you travel towards the outer rim, the more wild west things become.
What's always been the problem is that, in part due to how they were made and in part to serve the story, the original trilogy mostly dealt with either the underclass hiding in the slums or fascist military installations stripped of individuality. We didn't really get to see a "nice place" in the galaxy until Ep1, which is a big part of why it felt so jarring to people who had grown up on 20 years of the setting being defined by its downtrodden sectors.
Easy E wrote: Yeah, but maps are a staple of old serial, pulp adventure stories that Star Wars is based on.
Many folks are trying to apply logic to genre conventions.
That only works if the map is cryptic or unseen. If you present the audience with a big blue map 5x larger than the characters with a glowing red path on it, you can't dismiss it as 'genre conventions.' The audience is seeing what the characters are seeing.
Its especially hinky in an overly marketed and analyzed setting like SW, where I'm sure some fanboy with the right sourcebooks can pinpoint exactly where in the galaxy that planet is, based on comparing various published maps.
Geifer wrote: I don't usually respond well to bringing a character back to life who was cut in half and thrown down a bottomless pit. It's a most ridiculous thing to do. But they went on to do a lot of great stuff with Maul
I agree it's stupid they did it and I'll still say it's stupid they did it.
But at least they went good places with it so I will overlook the stupidity.
LunarSol wrote: I don't think decayed is the right term. It's more that it tries to be a lived in setting. The idea has always been that the core worlds are rather opulent and modern and the farther you travel towards the outer rim, the more wild west things become.
Ehh, potato potato.
There is enough ancient ruins, forgotten empires, along with some eldritch horror adjacent stuff to make it a decayed setting. And even the opulent and well maintained core worlds hide ugly and gritty underworlds beneath the polished marble.
But again this is somewhat contradictory with how... mundane they treat their wonderous tech. Seems anyone can make a galaxy destroying super weapon with a few years of work, the local auto mechanic always gets asked to help with the ancient techno-mcguffin, etc... This just feels like it doesn't work well with ancient archeo-tech and eldritch horror stuff.
You really don't see ancient tech ever being presented as superior to modern tech though. It's usually just incompatible and they need some RadioShack guy to get the file off a floppy disk.
A lot of the setting is just rooted in a 50-70's pop-culture worldview where most of the world had become civilized, but people dreamed of the ruins of ancient civilizations holding magical artifacts.
I guess I'm just not sure why the different levels of wealth and technology is so odd to you. You can see similar things in any major city and particularly if you go from there out to the small towns.
I don't know. They may not ever explicitly say ancient tech is better, but it does seem to be implied sometimes. And it certainly is never shown to be inferior. At best, it shows that technology in star wars is heavily stagnated. People do come up with new stuff, but its never just strictly better.
But yet, despite having access to a bunch of actually amazing technology to improve their standards of living, the people of star wars simply fail to use it to full potential. Like, a mining operation not only using specialized mining droids, but also using very much non-mining droids with hand tools like they are convict labor...
People on Tatooine living in adobe housing that is open to the outside air and relies on natural cooling flow. This wouldn't be a problem if Star Wars didn't also have easy cheap access to nuclear power. Seal that adobe home up and enjoy some air conditioning. Slave children can make protocol droids and podracers out of scrap in their spare time on your planet, you will not convince me you do not have cheap power to spare for air conditioning and general climate control of your houses. Heck, why does manual labor slavery exist when droids are cheap and plentiful? It would be far cheaper to buy a droid you only need to feed some cheap power and occasional maintenance than own some slaves you have to feed, house, etc... just to do work around your junk shop.
Easy E wrote: Yeah, but maps are a staple of old serial, pulp adventure stories that Star Wars is based on.
Many folks are trying to apply logic to genre conventions.
That only works if the map is cryptic or unseen. If you present the audience with a big blue map 5x larger than the characters with a glowing red path on it, you can't dismiss it as 'genre conventions.' The audience is seeing what the characters are seeing.
Its especially hinky in an overly marketed and analyzed setting like SW, where I'm sure some fanboy with the right sourcebooks can pinpoint exactly where in the galaxy that planet is, based on comparing various published maps.
Umm, Indiana Jones/Sky Captain (as well as other old serials) all feature scenes of traveling over maps represented by huge lines going across them. I guess they weren't actually "in flight" for this one (have not seen it, as I am no longer a Star Wars fan) but still trying to pay homage to the classic genre staple?
Probably a stretch. Thankfully, I am not invested in being right or wrong on the subject.
Not a great sign when promos for the Acolyte have one of the actors inaccurately saying Anakin blew up the Death Star and the focus on it being how it's not "good vs evil" when that's basically the fundamental conflict paradigm between the Jedi and the Sith. Then again I'm not surprised when it's being made by Weinstein's former personal assistant.
An actor's knowledge or lack thereof of the background details of the franchise they are working in is not an indication of the quality of the production. See: Harrison Ford, and his complete and utter disinterest in anything to do with Star Wars.
insaniak wrote: An actor's knowledge or lack thereof of the background details of the franchise they are working in is not an indication of the quality of the production. See: Harrison Ford, and his complete and utter disinterest in anything to do with Star Wars.
Gotta say that's coming off as copium from you Insaniak, considering that the key difference is that it would be more forgivable if they weren't trying to pass it off as them being knowledgeable/a fan about the source material or trying to hype up their role in the show by saying that, whereas Harrison Ford has always been quite open about basically seeing Star Wars as a paycheque type deal. At least for Ford he's just doing his job as an actor, if Charlie Barnett can't even do basic research to convince people he's a so-called fan before spouting off factoids that are clearly wrong, I can't imagine they'll do a good job convincing me in their role, you know the "act" in actor.
It's like me pretending to be a big WW2 buff in a historical film in that time period and saying I have personal connections to character I'm playing, but then saying, "My favourite part of the Battle of Stalingrad is how the Nazis won and it led to Winston Churchill and FDR becoming gay lovers". Kinda hard to take the production seriously if vetted promo material like that comes out.
As fans we often feel like actors must love everything they work in and know it inside and out. The reality is for many actors its a job and whilst they might enjoy some parts of that job, it doesn't have to include things like the lore, story or whatever they are working with.
Another thing is that we tend to engage with the story in a linear fashion whilst actors might well be doing the last scene on the first day and the first scene on the last day; plus dozens of scenes, revisions, and so forth that we never see (barring the handful that make it onto the "how its made" DVD)
Heck take this short clip of an interview:
Some fans might expect him to remember every single technobabble line and some fans will focus and remember every line and so forth.
Its... interesting, but the script is a little sloppy. JJ Abrams level of sloppy with travel times and people missing the obvious.
Spoiler:
basically, a ship crashes. All the other people are collected and brought back to the Jedi, probe droids are dispatched to search the wreckage and find nothing and report back. The main character is just... knocked out on the floor of the ship the whole time. Not hidden, the wreckage isn't hidden or hard to get in and out of. But somehow she magically wasn't found.
The jedi eventually turn up and immediately declare that no one could have survived... two minutes after the MC walked out.
The Jedi of this era seem to be masters of arrogance and conclusion-jumping. So I expect a lot of 'from my perspective, the jedi are evil!' type nonsense.
The 'bad guys' also seem to be inherently stupid, as the episode ends with a flat declaration of something that is completely contradicted by the start of the episode.
It's definitely a rough episode one, suffering both from feeling like the script was rewritten too many times without ever being a holistic onceover to make sure all the different parts worked together, and the consistent problem of modern TV being a slave to set pieces even when the arrangement of those set pieces doesn't make any sense.
Plus there's just clear lines where it feels like this show was at some point a completely different show, or even two shows, that were rewritten sloppily.
Spoiler:
Like the whole bit with the ship crash. Where are the two Jedi who arrested our girl? Why weren't they on this ship? Why did they leave the transport of a high profile prisoner to an automated ship and more importantly, when they showed up on one ship, where the hell did they go when that ship left? How did they get back to Coruscant in the same amount of time it took our girl to not get there and crash, but still have enough time for the escaped prisoners to be caught? Were time warps just a regular part of the galaxy at this stage in time?
Is this an over anaylsis? Yes, it is, but you can't be this sloppy and then not expect questions to pile on and add up to 'that doesn't make any sense.'
EDIT: And the time warp continues in episode 2, where a cast of characters enter a building, but 1 reaches the dead body way ahead of the others, despite the others being led by someone who actually lives in that building.
Like, I am eager to see a show set in a different era and to see a new cast of characters with limited options for Dave Filoni to insert gratuitous cameos and lore references, but man the first episode of the Acolyte is a rough watch.
The kind of rough watch that will either a) be the harsh start to a good show that ultimately becomes more than the sum of its parts, or b) pretty gakky TV.
And the first few minutes of episode 2 are not an improvement in the janky pacing and sloppy scripting department. The show really feels like someone took two scripts and slapped them together at some point and never did a proofread to make sure the whole thing worked.
Episode 2 is just weird. I appreciated the initial distraction, but then there was just... an open window.
And the incompetent, powerless flailing, which is a bad look for the antagonist.
And again, everyone just accepts everything at face value.
I'm a little puzzled as to why, at the height of their power, this group of jedi is rattling around in an old junker ship that seems to have more in common with the Falcon than something top of the line.
----
I did like the fairly casual use of SW pieces and species. There was even a Selkath from Knights of the Old Republic in the background. But they didn't make a point of drawing attention to 'memberberries, SW things are just quietly on the set.
It honestly feels more and more like 2 different series/film projects that were collapsed into 1 and no one ever did a proofread of the script. That's just something jarring all the way through the first two episodes, not so much in the production but the plotting.
Like the whole bit with the ship crash. Where are the two Jedi who arrested our girl? Why weren't they on this ship? Why did they leave the transport of a high profile prisoner to an automated ship and more importantly, when they showed up on one ship, where the hell did they go when that ship left? How did they get back to Coruscant in the same amount of time it took our girl to not get there and crash, but still have enough time for the escaped prisoners to be caught? Were time warps just a regular part of the galaxy at this stage in time?.
.
Time has always been a bit wonky in Star Wars... but as for the other thing -
Spoiler:
The prison ship isn't the jedi ship that is shown arriving. Presumably the prison ship arrived and docked while the jedi were talking to Osha. So the jedi just left on their own ship after the transport left. And presumably they got to Coruscant more quickly because their ship was faster.
That opening scene was superb. Very slight speeding up of the Jedi, but not to a ridiculous degree. Just enough to suggest it’s more than simple physical skill going on.
The aesthetic is wonderful. But kind of strange to see Star Wars with no soldiers kicking about.
Overall it’s leaning into the Samurai movie roots. And there’s a pleasing amount of force usage going on, as opposed to just whipping out your lightsaber for “aggressive negotiations”.
Neimodians somewhat less racist than their original outing.
I agree it’s a bit rough around the edges, but there’s enough solid stuff here for me to enjoy. Particularly enjoying a variety of different planets being introduced. Whilst it never really bothered me in particular, I do agree “oh hey, it’s Tatooine. Again.” made the Galaxy feel small.
We also have an unusual element where as these are all new characters? We don’t know who, if anyone, has plot armour.
I generally liked it, though agreed it jumped around a bit more than I'd like. An establishing shot of the Jedi ship being different from the prison transport ship would have gone a long way. It makes complete sense in hindsight but it's not presented in a way that's easy to follow.
Spoiler:
A lot of the weirdness I assumed came down to the twins being a two souls in one body deal, though the second episode makes that a stretch/impossibility.
Overall though, I'm liking what we're seeing. The Jedi depicted here are FAR closer to what I would have imagined before the prequels. The overall trappings of the High Republic make for a setting I'm happy to see more of. I like the cast and the mystery is intriguing enough that I look forward to learning more, even if its not got the writing chops for me to expect to be impressed by the answers.
LunarSol wrote: I generally liked it, though agreed it jumped around a bit more than I'd like. An establishing shot of the Jedi ship being different from the prison transport ship would have gone a long way. It makes complete sense in hindsight but it's not presented in a way that's easy to follow.
I was less confused about multiple ships than I was about why, after something clearly unthinkable (to them) has happened, they wouldn't just have prioritized personally taking the 'person of interest' back with them immediately. Green boss jedi was also clearly in the camp of 'let's not spread this news around,' so... yeah. Giving more opportunities to spread the news around was an odd choice. Though I guess they had to take the tavernkeeper back, since they dragged him out to the backside of nowhere space.
I do wonder if they decided that the prosthetics and/or CGI for the first padawan (didn't take the time to figure out which method they were leaning on more) was just too much to deal with in terms of time/inconvenience or money, so cut her and several scenes that would've made the beginning a little smoother for the audience.
On the subject of green boss jedi, this is probably the primary character (not actor, character), that bothers me (though the 'local temple' jedi in ep 2 were also... meh). For a jedi master, she's almost aggressively un-empathetic and un-intuitive, with little appreciation for anything but the appearance of wrongdoing being inherently wrong. She's either a terrible two-dimensional character or there's going to be a 'shocking' reveal that she's the ultimate bad guy (which would also be terrible character writing).
The overall trappings of the High Republic make for a setting I'm happy to see more of.
Interesting. For the 'High Republic' everything seems clunky and worn. Back to the grunge of the OT, rather than polished shininess of the prequels. I think that's a deliberate decision aimed at the audience, but it feels weird for a 'golden age.'
The overall trappings of the High Republic make for a setting I'm happy to see more of.
Interesting. For the 'High Republic' everything seems clunky and worn. Back to the grunge of the OT, rather than polished shininess of the prequels. I think that's a deliberate decision aimed at the audience, but it feels weird for a 'golden age.'
I see the opulent wealth of the prequels as more of a sign of systematic corruption and early collapse (and early CGI). Things in this show look worn, but largely it feels like everything is functional. People generally seem to have faith in the system and while the Jedi are regularly shown to be quick to abuse the Force to get to the truth, they seem to be focused on what is just over the letter of the law. Things aren't perfect, but people seem pretty happy and content with the status quo. That's often a better sign of the height of a society than the level of tech they have.
LunarSol wrote: An establishing shot of the Jedi ship being different from the prison transport ship would have gone a long way.
That was kind of there, though, in that they show the Jedi ship* arriving, and the prison ship being a completely different ship. And Yord says that Osha will be transported on a prison ship, just to make it more clear.
*a two seater Vector starfighter, which is why they didn't use it to take Osha back themselves.
LunarSol wrote: An establishing shot of the Jedi ship being different from the prison transport ship would have gone a long way.
That was kind of there, though, in that they show the Jedi ship* arriving, and the prison ship being a completely different ship. And Yord says that Osha will be transported on a prison ship, just to make it more clear.
*a two seater Vector starfighter, which is why they didn't use it to take Osha back themselves.
If it’s only a two seater, what ship did the bartender arrive on?
If it’s only a two seater, what ship did the bartender arrive on?
Good question. Either he was in the cargo hold, or they've just added a three-seater version to cannon.
Or he came on the prison ship, but then he's stuck finding his own way home, presumably...
Edit - three or four seater is the most likely explanation, since the ship shown in the show is slightly different to the Vectors shown in previous High Republic material.
LunarSol wrote: An establishing shot of the Jedi ship being different from the prison transport ship would have gone a long way.
That was kind of there, though, in that they show the Jedi ship* arriving, and the prison ship being a completely different ship. And Yord says that Osha will be transported on a prison ship, just to make it more clear.
*a two seater Vector starfighter, which is why they didn't use it to take Osha back themselves.
If it’s only a two seater, what ship did the bartender arrive on?
Episode 1 suffers incredibly from how the Star Wars universe has a clear and universally understood time warp in play, thus why none of the characters ever ask any obvious questions about time or distance, even though the entire plot for that episode sure has an incredibly questionable grasp of time and distance and the entire question of Osha's innocence/guilt seems answerable by doing some basic time and distance math. But that's because there's a time warp and characters magically appear wherever they need to be to move the plot forward.
Just normal plot stuff. Clear up by the end of episode 2, sort of.
I'd also point out, and I double checked to be sure I wasn't crazy;
Episode 1 (Yord is right there): Yord, who Osha says knows all this, brings up the loss of Osha's mothers and sisters. Explicitly.
Episode 1 (Yord, with a wtf face): Osha has a twin? That's not in her record.
Bitch, you grew up with her. She never mentioned her sister was twin? None of you knew this sister was a twin. That's actually a plot point in this show? The show, where none of you, ask any basic questions about the murder you're all so interested in and none of you bothered to do any math on how Osha could have slipped off her ship in we don't know where, gone to another planet, murdered someone, and then flown bac-Oh right. Time warp. Never mind.
This show has incredibly sloppy writing through the first episode. Like the sloppiest writing of any SWs product since ever I think. Like it's really sloppy. Episode 2 is an improvement, but if 2 hadn't dropped a bunch of curiosity bombs over its course I'd probably have decided the show wasn't remotely worth it because the writing is just so sloppy.
I see Insaniak's SW apologia for the recent poor offerings is in full force. Still think that the promos leading up to this show weren't a reflection of its quality so far?
LordofHats wrote: The show, where none of you, ask any basic questions about the murder you're all so interested in and none of you bothered to do any math on how Osha could have slipped off her ship in we don't know where, gone to another planet, murdered someone, and then flown bac-Oh right. Time warp. Never mind.
Or they did do that, and the Neimoidian ship has hyperspace-capable shuttles and was near enough to Ueda for it to have worked, but none of that was really necessary to mention at that point in the story. It's a space opera, not a crime procedural.
Yord not knowing about her twin is admittedly a little odd, but also not really... people surviving trauma don't always share details of it with their friends.
To be clear, I reserve the bulk of my criticism for Episode 1. Episode 1 is very weird.
Episode 2 improves, and I at least am intrigued enough by the clues dropped in that episode to keep watching because I want to know the answers to the questions.
1 just stands out for being very sloppily written, and part of me wonders if they retooled the script mid production and had already filmed some expensive CGI they decided to use anyway (like a certain starship crash) even though you could easily cut most of what happens in episode 1 completely out of the show and I don't know that you'd even notice its absence.
I mean, the whole cast basically gets on the 'Osha's sister did it' train so freaking fast, that we even bothered with questioning it at all feels like needless padding that makes the Jedi characters look kind of stupid for not actually investigating the crime that started the plot.
Episode 1 is bad. Maybe the worst Episode 1 of an SW show ever.
But 2 is legitimately better, and better enough I do want to see if 3 can continue the trend.
Grimskul wrote: I see Insaniak's SW apologia for the recent poor offerings is in full force. Still think that the promos leading up to this show weren't a reflection of its quality so far?
Nope, I enjoyed it.
More to the point, I enjoy Star Wars in general, and would prefer to view it through that lens. I really don't see the point in continuing to watch a franchise I don't enjoy just to pick apart all the things I hate about it, so I don't do that.
LordofHats wrote: The show, where none of you, ask any basic questions about the murder you're all so interested in and none of you bothered to do any math on how Osha could have slipped off her ship in we don't know where, gone to another planet, murdered someone, and then flown bac-Oh right. Time warp. Never mind.
Or they did do that, and the Neimoidian ship has hyperspace-capable shuttles and was near enough to Ueda for it to have worked, but none of that was really necessary to mention at that point in the story. It's a space opera, not a crime procedural.
Eh. This is a genre mash-up, like a lot of the Marvel stuff. A lot of this _is_ a crime procedural, or is at least set up that way. The fact that they also get direct insights from the fundamental force of the entire universe but still don't ask obvious questions or double check a crashed ship is downright baffling (we see jedi catching on to false or misleading statements or 'bad feelings' all the time). Especially since they did go and pick up everybody else and sent probe droids. Then they double down and nobody but Sol bothered to to take five seconds to investigate the very obviously false claims of criminals they had in custody. That's either bad writing or somebody at Jedi Precinct Corsucant is in on it.
Well, thats me re-subscribed to D+ for a short bit.
Spoiler:
What a waste of Carrie-Anne Moss. Trailer did show her outside of that bar, so hopefully get some flashbacks? She seemed extremely wooden during the fight scene.
Luckily the semi-evil twin used a tiny dagger instead of a lightsaber. We all know lightsabers to the gut/lower chest don’t kill!
“I see fire consuming everything!’ ‘That’s cool youngling, now go eat lunch!”
Felt the twin reveal could’ve been milked a bit longer to fool us (the viewer) and add more shock value. Exact same hairstyle after all this time apart? Lol
Learned from a Co-worker that Greenface Jedi is showrunners spouse. I dub her Darth Nepo.
The Sith baddie sounds cool. Luckily, he gave us a flash of the red lightsaber to reveal that he’s a bad guy. I wouldn’t have known it was a bad guy, but then he Vadered!
I have a feeling Mr. Muscles Jedi will be used as a verbal punching bag to the antlered albino X-23’s Jedi Knight throughout this series. I have a sneaking suspicion she’ll be a better fighter too.
If there is a quicker way to Floaty-boy Jedi, why’d the Jedi escort not take them that way?
The fat Jedi was pretty embarassing. “Lets put the most noticeable Jedi in the temple on duty to surveil a known accomplice to an assassin. He definitely won’t stick out like a raisin in a handful of rice, practically leaning over the deck that he’s standing on and get distracted by some young Jedi trim that comes up to chat”.
Why not bring the accomplice in and post some knights in the actual shop to ambush the assassin if she returned?
Voss wrote: Eh. This is a genre mash-up, like a lot of the Marvel stuff. A lot of this _is_ a crime procedural, or is at least set up that way.
Even if it wasn't a crime procedural, it's overtly playing up a mystery box plot.
You can't drop a mystery box in front of an audience and then demand that they not look at it too hard because it's 'just a space opera.' The whole story is a literal 'why done it.' It's at least done that part well, but the foray into a 'who done it' in episode one was asking to be called out for not having its own ducks in a row.
Ob-Wan Kenobi didn't just magically journey to Kamino. He actually investigated and looked at evidence.
That's right.
I'm saying Attack of the Clones was better written than that episode was. Attack of the damn Clones. Easily the most sloppily written of the prequel films managed to do this right and didn't fall back on 'it's just a space opera' and expect to get a pass for not showing its work while hyping up a mystery.
/rant
Spoiler:
Big question; Is Sol supposed to be one of the culprits in this? I'd assume yes from context, but the reaction to seeing him seemed kind of muted and like he wasn't on the hit list (namely it didn't seem like Mae knew who he was). I'd definitely put green space lady up as a possibly #4. That would be the obvious way to go, depending on whatever it is the Jedi did that was seriously wrong.
My first guess was that they lied to Osha about her sister being alive so they could make Osha a Jedi, but that obviously not it because they clearly though Mae was dead too and Mae didn't know Osha was alive either. Presumably it's something about the fire and what started it.
Also, why is the 'master' wanting Mae to kill a Jedi without using a weapon? I wrote that off at the end of episode one as a corny trailer line they kept in the actual show for some god awful reason, but episode 2 makes a thing of it. Is it part of her training, or something else? Why does killing a Jedi with her bare hands matter?
That's the part of the show that's actually being done right. The seeding of mysteries begging answers, with just enough dropped to pique the curiosity muscles. Here's hoping they actually pull something off with it and the whole show isn't just a wash of let downs.
LordofHats wrote: You can't drop a mystery box in front of an audience and then demand that they not look at it too hard because it's 'just a space opera.' The whole story is a literal 'why done it.' It's at least done that part well, but the foray into a 'who done it' in episode one was asking to be called out for not having its own ducks in a row.
Spoiler:
I don't think it was in any way supposed to be a 'who done it' though, given that the promotional material for the show included both twins.
The Jedi (briefly) thought Osha did it... but the audience was never really supposed to. Even if you missed the poster for the show, it was blatantly obvious from the moment Osha appeared on screen that she was a different person, and the obvious conclusion was that the assassin was her twin. There was no hype on that particular 'mystery' because it was never a mystery.
Spoiler:
Big question; Is Sol supposed to be one of the culprits in this? I'd assume yes from context, but the reaction to seeing him seemed kind of muted and like he wasn't on the hit list (namely it didn't seem like Mae knew who he was). I'd definitely put green space lady up as a possibly #4. That would be the obvious way to go, depending on whatever it is the Jedi did that was seriously wrong.
Spoiler:
Osha specifically mentions that Sol is #4 when they're discussing how to proceed.
nels1031 wrote: Well, thats me re-subscribed to D+ for a short bit.
Spoiler:
What a waste of Carrie-Anne Moss. Trailer did show her outside of that bar, so hopefully get some flashbacks? She seemed extremely wooden during the fight scene.
Luckily the semi-evil twin used a tiny dagger instead of a lightsaber. We all know lightsabers to the gut/lower chest don’t kill!
“I see fire consuming everything!’ ‘That’s cool youngling, now go eat lunch!”
Felt the twin reveal could’ve been milked a bit longer to fool us (the viewer) and add more shock value. Exact same hairstyle after all this time apart? Lol
Learned from a Co-worker that Greenface Jedi is showrunners spouse. I dub her Darth Nepo.
The Sith baddie sounds cool. Luckily, he gave us a flash of the red lightsaber to reveal that he’s a bad guy. I wouldn’t have known it was a bad guy, but then he Vadered!
I have a feeling Mr. Muscles Jedi will be used as a verbal punching bag to the antlered albino X-23’s Jedi Knight throughout this series. I have a sneaking suspicion she’ll be a better fighter too.
If there is a quicker way to Floaty-boy Jedi, why’d the Jedi escort not take them that way?
The fat Jedi was pretty embarassing. “Lets put the most noticeable Jedi in the temple on duty to surveil a known accomplice to an assassin. He definitely won’t stick out like a raisin in a handful of rice, practically leaning over the deck that he’s standing on and get distracted by some young Jedi trim that comes up to chat”.
Why not bring the accomplice in and post some knights in the actual shop to ambush the assassin if she returned?
I want to like this, but its so puerile.
I kind of like her more wooden fighting. She didn’t do a lot of flashy stuff, just kind of walked towards her opponents overpowered her. Felt very terminator inevitable like.
I don't know what to make of The Acolyte. It took most of the first episode for me to get into it. That's not a good start.
The writing is pretty rough. I think I'll watch it for the visuals and form an opinion on the story when it's finished.
Spoiler:
I wonder if the kill Jedi with bare hands thing ties in with Darth Plagueis and the point is for the apprentice to learn the ability to force their will on the Force beyond what normal Jedi and Sith knowledge teaches.
Whoever her master is? They’re trying to make a point to the Galaxy. That Jedi are not invincible. That they’re not all goody two shoes and peaceful with violence as the last resort.
Hence she’s constantly trying to get the Jedi to throw the first blow. And so far, she’s only partially succeeded, as two are dead. But neither drew their Lightsaber or acted as the aggressor.
I also note at this early juncture the Jedi are very different to the prequel Jedi in terms of approach and attitude. And I’m pretty much expecting this show to explore how the Jedi were first nudged down that road. The road which ultimately leads to the fall and corruption of the entire Jedi Order, once they accept the role of Generals in the Grand Army of the Republic.
And that needn’t be done by the Sith Lineage of Palpatine. It could be another Sith Lord, with Palps and Plageius picking up where they leave off, because subtlety manipulating the Jedi isn’t a bad idea if you want to get rid.
Is that really what all the yapping is supposed to be about?
Spoiler:
Darksider goes to a tavern. Yells "fight me, bro". Nothing happens. Darksider gets angry and starts the fight. Ace plan ruined in the most foreseeable way.
Darksider goes to a temple. Yells "fight me, bro". Nothing happens. Darksider gets angry and starts the fight. Ace plan ruined in the most foreseeable way.
Is that really supposed to be the big bad's plan? A plan that does not consider Jedi doctrine or dark side passion even in the slightest way and shows complete absence of insight while at the same time aiming to achieve something that requires insight to come up with in the first place?
I think it is very much a kids show like the Obi1 show (under the cloak! Benny hill music is go!). Adults being upset is missing the point. Sadly like most kids shows the writers/creators think you don't need to be clever or well written anymore.
Geifer wrote: I don't know what to make of The Acolyte. It took most of the first episode for me to get into it. That's not a good start.
The writing is pretty rough. I think I'll watch it for the visuals and form an opinion on the story when it's finished.
Spoiler:
I wonder if the kill Jedi with bare hands thing ties in with Darth Plagueis and the point is for the apprentice to learn the ability to force their will on the Force beyond what normal Jedi and Sith knowledge teaches.
It's worth considering this might not be related to Palgueis or Palpatine at all.
A lot of the fan forums have been talking more and more about Aboleth, particularly because of hints in Ahsoka that something is coming. Aboleth is from the old EU, but came back to the new canon via some comics as I understand it as a eldritch Force abomination that was kept in check by the Father, the Daughter, and the Son.
Some of the trailers for the Acolyte have culty stuff in them, so the Acolyte might not be about Palpatine or his master.
I don't mind if Plagueis and Sidious aren't directly involved. I think Mace Windu said that the Sith haven't been around for a long time? You'd think he would know or at least be contradicted afterwards if any actual Sith were behind some Jedi murders three generations earlier. So it's probably best if they steer clear of that. Not that I trust them until I see it...
But my thoughts were more on the actual knowledge and not the group holding/learning it. As in, these darksiders use knowledge that when they're taken care of falls into the hands of Plagueis or his predecessor and lives on even though the antagonists of the show are gone, so as to establish some continuity between this era and the movie eras. I could see them try that.
LordofHats wrote: You can't drop a mystery box in front of an audience and then demand that they not look at it too hard because it's 'just a space opera.' The whole story is a literal 'why done it.' It's at least done that part well, but the foray into a 'who done it' in episode one was asking to be called out for not having its own ducks in a row.
Spoiler:
I don't think it was in any way supposed to be a 'who done it' though, given that the promotional material for the show included both twins.
The Jedi (briefly) thought Osha did it... but the audience was never really supposed to. Even if you missed the poster for the show, it was blatantly obvious from the moment Osha appeared on screen that she was a different person, and the obvious conclusion was that the assassin was her twin. There was no hype on that particular 'mystery' because it was never a mystery.
You guys know there's a difference between mysteries and crime procedurals, right? The mystery isn't always the point.
A mysterious murder! When his former deputy is accused of the crime, Inspector Sol is called out of his teaching retirement to investigate. Can he save the next victim, and prove his student's innocence, before Commissioner Green buries the case in red tape? But with space wizards.
I'm pretty sure I've seen this summary on the back of Inspector Banks or Inspector Morse.
Geifer wrote: Sounds cool. I hope it's something like that.
I don't mind if Plagueis and Sidious aren't directly involved. I think Mace Windu said that the Sith haven't been around for a long time? You'd think he would know or at least be contradicted afterwards if any actual Sith were behind some Jedi murders three generations earlier. So it's probably best if they steer clear of that. Not that I trust them until I see it...
But my thoughts were more on the actual knowledge and not the group holding/learning it. As in, these darksiders use knowledge that when they're taken care of falls into the hands of Plagueis or his predecessor and lives on even though the antagonists of the show are gone, so as to establish some continuity between this era and the movie eras. I could see them try that.
Spoiler:
I'm honestly half expecting that Mae's helper at the alchemy shop is more than he appears. For a guy who seems mundane, and acts like he's just along for the ride, he sure can recite some of the Sith code.
Not sure if I didn't pay attention but when he was introduced, it seemed to me like they both called the big darksider master in a way that suggested to me they were equals. I didn't initially think he was just Mae's hapless helper, but that's how it seems to be played later on.
... if Qimir isn't actually the Sith Lord, he's at least a fellow acolyte. He's obviously as familiar with 'the master' as Mae is, and based on his reaction to her attack, is obviously at least as well trained as she is...
On a second viewing, the passage of time on this show is wild.
Jedi gets killed in the cold open. Jedi find the suspect “as far from Coruscant as you can get” the next day on a freighter, while going to the crime scene and bringing the barkeeper witness to ID the suspect. Suspect is loaded onto a prison ship. Prison escape and ship crash. Killer goes to another planet to watch someone turn on a red lightsaber. Prisoners are captured and taken to Coruscant. Republic sends probe droids to crash site. Jedi who loaded the suspect onto the prison ship is on Corusanct and crews up with 2 other Jedi. Jedi find the crashed ship and suspect promptly. Inside of prison ship looks about the same when the suspect woke up in the wreck, so not a ton of time seems to have passed. Another Jedi is attacked and the very next day the Jedi crew and initial suspect are at the attack site.
It sure is lucky that you can use jedi powers to extract information from people's minds. That sure would be useful if you were trying to discover whether or not someone had killed a jedi. Huh show?
What's that? You can't kill jedi with steel or lasers? Tell that to Trinity and all this schmucs who died during Order 66.
Jedi only ignite their laser swords when they want to fight? Not just whenever they need a flashlight then?
It definitely didn't help me settle into the show. So much stuff happening so quickly without much time to take it in and process it.
And that's before you consider in setting implications.
Lord Damocles wrote: Jedi only ignite their laser swords when they want to fight? Not just whenever they need a flashlight then?
That's a little unfair. Just because you can't tell the difference between the cutting tool and the flashlight on the Swiss army saber doesn't mean the Jedi can't.
More seriously, the show does go to some trouble to consistently show the Jedi to opt for kung fu over drawing a deadly weapon until there is an actual reason. The contrast to the Clone Wars era is there. I think the flashlight bit itself isn't an issue in that regard. That the guard Jedi keeps it on and points it at Osha while boss Jedi talks her down is an actual failure in that regard. Although it still plays as evidence into the idea that the Jedi aren't what they claim to be and the plan to expose them at least has some merit.
Evil Sith Dude is clearly discussing public perception of the Jedi though. And it’s that public perception that’s in their sights.
Remember, we’ve 100 years to go from Kung Fu Space Hippies to Gung Ho “Aggressive Negotiation” Space Samurai.
Even the fighting styles we’ve seen are restrained. I’ve no doubt Trinity could’ve rekt Mae had she wished. Not even kill, just completely KO. That speaks of a pretty different underlying philosophy at play.
Geifer wrote: ... That the guard Jedi keeps it on and points it at Osha while boss Jedi talks her down is an actual failure in that regard. Although it still plays as evidence into the idea that the Jedi aren't what they claim to be and the plan to expose them at least has some merit.
I mean, they've also spent quite a bit of time pointing out that Yord isn't a particularly good jedi...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Evil Sith Dude is clearly discussing public perception of the Jedi though. And it’s that public perception that’s in their sights.
Not sure where you're getting that. Evil Sith-esque person is making a short, declarative, absolute statement about a fundamental truth of the universe and philosophy. (actually a 'sounds cool but is really vapid' line, but the intent seems to be to take it super serious.) There's no one to play 'public perception' to, Master is issuing a statement of How It Must Be Done to disciples.
The fact that its countered by what actually happened 40 minutes earlier just shows the editing or writing is a mess. They went for Rule of Stupid thinking it was Rule of Cool, or simply didn't reshoot a scene and just tacked it on the end.
This is reinforced by the very next episode, where antagonist is going on and on about the need to kill a Jedi unarmed, despite not being able to do that.
He's not saying that the jedi are literally immune to weapons. He's monologuing to his disciple about public perception of the jedi, and how that can be destroyed if someone starts killing them without even needing weapons. He's simply reminding her of her goal.
Decent amount of back story on Osha and Mae’s backstory, and a hint that they’re not natural births. This of course ties them into later happenings such as Anakin’s conception and potentially even project Necromancer.
And we’re left with serious ambiguity as to what actually happened. Burning a book doesn’t equal “now everyone’s mysteriously dead and the whole place is ahad”. Like…at all. Especially given the Sisterhood weren’t exactly trapped anywhere.
I really enjoyed seeing another branch of Force User Cult/Religion. And the suggestion they might be kinda neutral. Sure it seems they do stuff the Jedi Order doesn’t agree with, but that doesn’t make them amoral or immoral or evil. And I’d like to know more.
- No subtlety in who the evil child is right out of the gate.
- Calling the birth mother by her name but the coven leader is “Momma” was weird. Culty vibes as feth.
- The philosophy on The Thread/The Force makes no sense. ‘Its not a power to wield.” Immediately followed by “Pull the thread and change everything.” Sounds exactly like a power being wielded? Followed by various Force push duels.
- “Some consider our powers Dark” says woman who seconds later brands a child, then minutes later does some sort of mind domination on Padawan King Tommen* as a negotiating tactic. Also, seems like a power being wielded again!
- The flip from “we’re hiding/the Republic has no jurisdiction here/leave now” to “we’ll bring the kids to you tomorrow afternoon” happened so fast it might’ve broke my neck.
- “Osha is a child” in protest to not wanting her to be Jedi tested and “I didn’t bring those children into this world to lose them to a bunch of deranged monks” spoken with no irony, minutes after an indoctrination/branding ceremony where the same child was clearly not cool with it.
- “We’ll kill the Jedi, no one will miss 4 Jedi” said 2 episodes after the killing of one Jedi sets this whole story in motion. Also, totally not evil.
- “I’ll let her be tested. Its her choice” to “Take the test, but you must purposefully fail it”
-Stones catching fire.
I mean, I’m intrigued enough to keep watching for the lulz, but the gakky dialogue and the attempts at some profound philosophy were pretty cringe.
And ties into the religious undertones of force users always believing “only we can really be trusted with this power, everyone else is doing it wrong and is a danger”.
Culty Vibes is exactly what they’re going for. The implication is the girl’s don’t (maybe didn’t, time will tell) know they weren’t conceived in the usual way.
The hypocrisy of this Sisterhood Cult’s stance and distrust seems very much the entire point to me.
I really, really wish they'd done something more creative than
Spoiler:
Child of the Force part 2- this is getting out of hand. Now there are 2 of them! That was one of the weakest elements of the prequel trilogy.
It's a minor thing, but if the children were raised by people with such interesting accents- why don't Osha and Mae have them?
I will say I absolutely adore the horrible, horrible pun of the twin that fixes things and loves order is named OSHA. In the USA, that's the organization that enforces workplace safety.
I feel like the episode would have really benefitted from some sort of exposition on the Jedi's part. With, as stated, thousands of children at the temple, and the Jedi don't take children- why have they put so many Jedi and resources into finding and testing these two?
I'm still on board, but two episodes in is not very far to toss a whole filler/flashback episode at me.
My final thought- it is oddly disturbing to see a clothed wookie.
... yeah..
