H.B.M.C. wrote: This is the first SW product that's made me sit back and go: "Y'know, maybe Star Wars isn't really that good, and the good bits of Star Wars are the exceptions, not the rule."
In other words, we're not seeing bad Star Wars. We're just seeing Star Wars.
Pretty sure the first inklings of that were in RotJ.
And then the prequels, but they managed to hang that albatross entirely on Lucas.
So 'soft magic' = any amount of bad writing and donkey-pulls around magic is fine. Gotcha.
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Uuh...so you claim that (among others) Tolkien was bad writer? Interesting take. Care to explain?
So I'm criticizing someone else's terminology (specifically a forum voice's take on someone else's terminology), explicitly dismissing it as garbage, making no mention of any authors at all, and you're assigning authors to that category and blaming me?
Interesting take.
That is the category the author falls in to. Nobody here has assigned them in to that category.
H.B.M.C. wrote: This is the first SW product that's made me sit back and go: "Y'know, maybe Star Wars isn't really that good, and the good bits of Star Wars are the exceptions, not the rule."
In other words, we're not seeing bad Star Wars. We're just seeing Star Wars.
I've wondered since SNW if maybe Star Wars and Star Trek are, as settings, just showing their age.
It's really hard for me in 2022 to look at either franchise and accept that everything is so analog. Even today you could swear the internet and nothing like it exists in either setting (yes yes holo net and planetary nets but its weird how neither of those things ever seem to be ubiquitous in anyone's life), let alone anything comparable to basic home security let alone security systems. The entire time Obi Wan was sneaking through the Inquisitor base, I was like "how the feth has no one noticed this Stormtrooper's credentials being used to wander this facility? He's gotta be off his patrol route why is no one calling him on the radio to ask wtf he's doing?" As settings devised in an age before the internet and society on the cusp of massive breakthroughs in automation, a lot of Star Wars and Star Trek just doesn't make sense on the surface level. There are things today the audience just 'knows' that have created plot holes in contrivances where 15-25 years ago there were none. This compounds down the line in a whole range of things where audiences have become, either more discerning or more picky, and these old school action scenes just don't cut it anymore when even a child can see a bunch of reasons things wouldn't play out that way.
And that's made me wonder if maybe the issue isn't that new Star Wars or new Star Trek is really bad (they not that different from the old stuff really), but that absent the nostalgia and investment we put into the old stuff, the base material is wearing out its relevancy and feeling more and more fake as time goes on. The romping adventure story where nothing mattered so long as there was some action, a speech about good triumphing over evil, and a bad guy to get his ass kicked is timeless, but the way Star Wars and Star Trek go about it as settings is just blarg.
Lance845 wrote: The benefit of SW setting is that technically it takes place "a long time ago".
On the other hand they don't seem to have a single security camera yet droids have eyes.
It's baffling.
Obi-Wan dodged security cameras in ANH too if I recall correctly. At least the Death Star had storm trooper patrols and the heroes tried to avoid them lest their absence be noticed.
Don't get me wrong, the quality IMO has dropped but even so I still find myself constantly wondering why things that are obvious now don't exist and the only explanation is because the setting was devised in the late 70s as a callback/homage to settings from the 30s and 40s. And I mean, the only way to fix that is to honestly toss the prior stuff out and either write it off or just say 'it's not 1970 anymore get over it' when people bitch about compliance to prior works.
I guess I'd ask of an example of a fictional tech savvy setting where that isn't really a problem. Just to get an idea of a story where that's not an issue.
I find it more that ever piece of Star Wars somehow needs to be the best Star Wars. Like, I enjoy Kenobi, but its like a 6-7/10 or so. It's fine, its fun, its better than Boba, but its not the Mandalorian at its best.
Like sometimes Star Wars is just mediocre. Sometimes its actually terrible. Sometimes its fantastic. That rarely has much to do with the setting or anything like that and everything to do with the character dynamics, writing, and pacing. Ahsoka's final fight with Vader is fantastic, but that's because almost nothing matters in that scene except the two characters in it.
The setting is fun, but its just a setting. The stories told in it have to stand on their own merits. The setting isn't going to make them on its own, and the worst of Star Wars is the stories that seem to believe otherwise.
LunarSol wrote: I guess I'd ask of an example of a fictional tech savvy setting where that isn't really a problem. Just to get an idea of a story where that's not an issue.
No, you'd be correct.
I've mentioned this in the Gundam Thread before. Scifi today is still very much trapped in the 'norms' of the pre-internet age. Part of that can be explained simply by generational gaps. Most of the world and most of its money are still owned and operated by people who grew up without the internet. We're only now in the past few years seeing the emergence of showrunners from Gen Y, who emerged right with the internet but plenty of us grew up without it as a ubiquitous part of life or our experience pre-dates social media and wireless interconnectivity. We might not see scifi really catch up until Gen Z comes along and starts running things that'll reflect their experiences.
The far future looks and feels exactly like the things we were envisioning 20-30 years ago despite technological changes and advancements. Star Wars is just a stellar example because of how its even more dated with things like wireless systems not existing most of the time and everything feeling so isolated and unconnected (hilarious with how characters keep crossing paths with one another across entries).
And I agree the setting can still be fun, but time again a big part of criticism and the nitpicky internet that seems obsessed with finding flaws (myself included) a lot of what gets called out aren't even flaws per see, but the settings and stories dating themselves by their assumptions. I think criticism of every side-character somehow becoming a pitch for a spinoff is a problem itself, but that's plot. The plots of Star Wars I don't think are exactly the problem. Lackluster execution and a lack of boldness on the part of creators and corporate boards are. The setting issue is just another thing that's been on my mind and I think is compounding the problem.
The lack of thought about these scenes and set pieces (where are the security cameras?) makes already lazy plots appear even more lazy. It's like no one spends time sitting down and just thinking through how the characters and this world are, how they think, or what they do. It's mostly just a barrage of 'people will like this throw some lightsabers in.'
Voss wrote: Wait, what did Han, Luke and Chewie spend so much time shooting in the detention block on the Death Star, if not security cameras?
They did. But that's literally the only time I can think of in Star Wars where security cameras existed. I'm sure there were others, but it's not something we've seen much of ever since and we see people infiltrate Imperial facilities with some frequency.
Voss wrote: Wait, what did Han, Luke and Chewie spend so much time shooting in the detention block on the Death Star, if not security cameras?
I think that's the point. In 1977 somebody thought to put security cameras in the detention block. In 2022 video surveillance of a detention facility has apparently become a lost art.
It's not even consistent with other stuff Star Wars showed in the past. The Citadel in the Clone Wars show had cameras of the same design used on the Death Star.
I don't know what to make of the writers responsible for Obi Wan. Did they really not think of this stuff or did they figure they just didn't need it? With regard to what's been discussed above,I don't have a problem with a (now retro) sci-fi setting not catching up with real world technological advances, but writers not even obeying the rules of the setting they're working with is pretty dire.
Voss wrote: Wait, what did Han, Luke and Chewie spend so much time shooting in the detention block on the Death Star, if not security cameras?
They did. But that's literally the only time I can think of in Star Wars where security cameras existed. I'm sure there were others, but it's not something we've seen much of ever since and we see people infiltrate Imperial facilities with some frequency.
As mentioned above, the Citadel has cameras. In Revenge of the Sith, the Jedi temple has cameras, too. Back to Clone Wars, I'd have to check to be sure but I believe there may be camera footage on Venators shown in the show. The headquarters of the Coruscant guard has video surveillance that's used to frame Ahsoka.. In Rebels, Kallus turns off surveillance on a Star Destroyer's detention block.
Security cameras exist and are used plentifully outside of A New Hope.
LunarSol wrote: FWIW, Obi-Wan wasn't particularly concerned about security cameras in A New Hope either.
In truth, its just not always worth spending the time to show every time there's an Imperial facility.
It kinda was here, though, as the audience is clearly supposed to accept the Imperials as security conscious (TSA guy, console room minder, other officers sitting 4 feet away but apparently failing their Listen checks, despite hearing clear instructions to avoid security bots). They just come across as incompetent, such as when Suspicious Officer gets choked out in the complete lack of privacy of 'behind a couple mainframes,' and no one notices or cares.
It was a stealth rescue mission in one of the more secretive places in the galaxy, but the show didn't bother to put in the work. They spent the effects budget on Chekov's sea monsters (that no one ever pulled the trigger on) and playing tennis with blaster bolts for... quite some time.
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On the other hand, as far as technological anachronisms go, Evil City Planet did have a pretty 'modern' communications infrastructure. The hundreds of random bounty hunters certainly got all the tweets & pics of Kenobi on their iWatches really fast.
It's the general lack of a sense of... sense in the setting. Stuff happens to move the plot along, usually in the laziest way possible or the way that involves the most lasers. The setting in general lacks a lot of simple details. Security cameras are one. Noticing your patrol droids are being destroyed and a guard is unconscious in a closet is another. Security at this super secure facility sucks and seems to function on a derth of things that are basic sense now, but then if it didn't we probably wouldn't believe Obi-wan made it out of there.
Most of these things wouldn't have stood out at all decades ago when the setting was new. Hence, my wondering that maybe in part the problem is that the Star Wars setting is just showing its age.
George Lucas wrote:“I put this little thing on it: ‘A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, an incredible adventure took place.’ Basically it’s a fairy tale now.”
If you're not on board with this then you're never going to be happy with it.
But perhaps we should get a conversation going about how if Aurora had slept for a hundred years how muscle atrophy would have set in and she'd have been barely been more than a skeleton, let alone how she kept hydrated and took in any nutrition!
Or maybe we accept that the storytelling is done in broad strokes, doesn't and was never intended to stand up to the level of scrutiny it's subjected to, and we don't look behind the curtain or we just ruin it for ourselves?
If you've got the sort of brain that really can't let go of the tiniest inconsistency, then, again, it's perhaps to accept you'll never be happy with it or move on.
Azreal13 wrote: Or maybe we accept that the storytelling is done in broad strokes, doesn't and was never intended to stand up to the level of scrutiny it's subjected to, and we don't look behind the curtain or we just ruin it for ourselves?
I'm pretty convinced at this point that the more lackluster something is, the more scrutiny with which it's torn apart. It's a sliding scale sort of thing. With a reverse slope at the far end where something becomes so bad it's good.
I can sit here and spend hours of point out all the way Pokemon doesn't make sense. But I don't. Except to have fun with it because it's funny. Because Pokemon is fun. So long as it stays fun, there's no particular reason to pick it apart in a negative way.
So long as it's fun, no amount of scrutiny will really ruin it. Hell, look at DBZA. They made an entire internet phenomenon out a series that is at least half poking holes at all DBZ's frequent plot holes and idiot ball moments, and while some people are ahoels about that those of us who grew up on DBZ love it no less for DBZA having fun with it and the makers of DBZA themselves love DBZ. I could go on and on. Most fiction has holes if you go looking for them. A lot of the time, no one cares what the holes are so long as the material is good enough. If anything the holes become points of fun for fans to laugh at.
But when it's meh, we just end up picking it apart harder. Cause it's not entertaining us in other ways so all we end up with is finding something else to think about while it drones on. And I don't even dislike Kenobi that much. It's okay. Kind of weird to think that when I was a kid, people hated McGregor in his role as Obi-Wan but fast forward and it's hard to imagine anyone else pulling it off. What it isn't is great, and when I try to think of why it's not great what I see is a movie plot stretched out to be a series with a lot of lazy padding thrown in that becomes lazier the more I think about it. And it's boring. So I've got nothing else to do but think about how lazy it is.
My commentary on the setting at large is more general and a musing on the state of science fiction at large. Even Cyberpunk 2077, a setting you'd expect to be in on technological advances of the past 10 years, is still mired in the norms of the 80s (edit: though, I suppose in their defense that's a bit purposeful since grunge cyberpunk is always kind of 80s-ish). It's not just Star Wars. I only bring it up here because another comment reminded me of the question and how it applies to Star Wars as a setting.
If you've got the sort of brain that really can't let go of the tiniest inconsistency, then, again, it's perhaps to accept you'll never be happy with it or move on.
And maybe instead of making this about me, you could actually talk about the content. I'll consume the media however I want and talk about it how I want.
If you've got the sort of brain that can't handle someone disliking something and saying why, then perhaps accept you'll never be comfortable talking to anyone about it?
Slow down there, cowboy, it was "you" in the colloquial sense, more correctly it should have been "one."
But I'm fine with people not liking things, I'm fine with people saying they don't like things. I'm puzzled by people still complaining about the things they don't like by episode 5. I'm even more puzzled by the people (and there are several just on this board) who seem to actively watch things they clearly aren't enjoying explicitly for the purpose of bitching about it online.
I didn't much care for season 2 of Locke and Key. So I watched a couple episdoes then stopped. Didn't post anywhere online about it even once.
It's probably because they have nothing better to do, and maybe they don't dislike it so much they'll stop watching it.
Some stuff is just 'stuff.' We consume it. We move on. To Disney, I'd note they're making a lot of that lately. Bad isn't the right word for any of it, but neither is good. We watch it. We bitch about it. They make another one. We watch it. We bitch about it.
It feels especially applicable where their D+ series' are concerned, where I feel like the only stellar offering is The Mandalorian and the rest feeling a lot like... Seriously, it's like we're the Call of Duty community talking about the latest annual release. Perfectly functional. Entertaining if you take it for what it is. But we all know we won't be talking about it in 6 months and half of what we're talking about in the meantime is the parts that kind of suck >.>
I dare say it's practically become it's own sort of business model, intentionally or otherwise. A constant stream of 'that'll do pig' content that's just good enough to keep our interest but isn't so good as to really stand out in any meaningful way.
But perhaps we should get a conversation going about how if Aurora had slept for a hundred years how muscle atrophy would have set in and she'd have been barely been more than a skeleton, let alone how she kept hydrated and took in any nutrition!
Or maybe we accept that the storytelling is done in broad strokes, doesn't and was never intended to stand up to the level of scrutiny it's subjected to, and we don't look behind the curtain or we just ruin it for ourselves?
If you've got the sort of brain that really can't let go of the tiniest inconsistency, then, again, it's perhaps to accept you'll never be happy with it or move on.
There is a difference between how regular people in a military use technology in a way that makes sense and how magic functions in preserving a body when cursed. I don't argue that luke can do a big flip with the force. Magic lets him. I do argue that a military installations door lock is a little spinny plug at knee hight that any astro mech droid can open.
But perhaps we should get a conversation going about how if Aurora had slept for a hundred years how muscle atrophy would have set in and she'd have been barely been more than a skeleton, let alone how she kept hydrated and took in any nutrition!
I dare say it's practically become it's own sort of business model, intentionally or otherwise. A constant stream of 'that'll do pig' content that's just good enough to keep our interest but isn't so good as to really stand out in any meaningful way.
This is hardly something new. This is how television has always worked. Consumable, forgettable bits of entertainment is pretty much what television was all about prior to the rise in popularity of the DVR. It wasn't until the widespread migration to streaming services that we got shows that weren't terribly concerned about padding out the episode count. Just compare the final season of Clone Wars to the first couple if you need a Star Wars example, but what your describing is just the way TV is for all sorts of reasons. (Budget, production speed, staff on hand, budget, etc) Even the best shows are often only truly loved for a handful of episodes with only a handful of shows every few years capable of churning out consistently great content.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Any chance of taking that to a new thread for the discussion thereof?
I don't think this is wise. In all my decades I've never found silence to shorten a wait. Quite the opposite, actually.
I think Kenobi may be a little light on things to discuss if you remove the questionable worldbuilding. It's a bit of an unfair comparison because Obi Wan has a very limited number of episodes to work with (so far), but take Rebels and Bad Batch. They also fall in the period between Episode 3 and Episode 4, add some new locations or show known ones for the first time or in far more detail than before. They have their share of established character appearances. But fundamentally they're stories about a cast of new characters, with their own problems to overcome and their own corners of the galaxy to explore. If they interfere with or add to the stories we already know, it's in limited and unintrusive ways. Those may add some neat moments, but it doesn't change that, again, fundamentally they're stories about characters that could go anywhere.
You can talk and speculate a lot more about the new things as well as the unknowns presented in those shows. Kenobi doesn't have much of that. There is simply no question as to where Obi Wan, Darth Vader, Leia and two of the three prominent Inquisitors go. Yeah, we get to see more of Alderaan, junkie planet looks nice enough, mining world is, eh, but that's mining for you, and live action inquisition fortress has its charms to be sure, but they're all places with little effect of their own. They exist for nothing more than to give the characters a place to enact their drama. The Imperials outside of the main cast are not shown to add anything of interest. The refugee network exists to rescue Obi Wan and get rescued by him in turn, or something. As an organization or group of people they don't look like they have any lasting role or enough characterization to show up again. I'm not seeing a new Hondo or Saw in there. The only one with that potential exploded herself.
In my opinion Obi Wan is pretty barren as a topic for discussion if you limit yourself to its merits. There is a lot more to talk about if you include the show's potential. All those things that could have been in there but aren't. I don't see any harm in talking about those things, to be honest.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Kenobi finale tomorrow. I’m interested to see how open ended it’s left myself.
Someone mentioned earlier there were rumors about what the show was supposed to end like and how it actually does, if it has in fact been changed to accommodate another season. Would be good to actually see a link or something. I'm certainly not going to go looking for any of that stuff before the show concludes and risk spoiling the show for myself, but afterwards it might make for an interesting read.
I dare say it's practically become it's own sort of business model, intentionally or otherwise. A constant stream of 'that'll do pig' content that's just good enough to keep our interest but isn't so good as to really stand out in any meaningful way.
This is hardly something new. This is how television has always worked. Consumable, forgettable bits of entertainment is pretty much what television was all about prior to the rise in popularity of the DVR. It wasn't until the widespread migration to streaming services that we got shows that weren't terribly concerned about padding out the episode count. Just compare the final season of Clone Wars to the first couple if you need a Star Wars example, but what your describing is just the way TV is for all sorts of reasons. (Budget, production speed, staff on hand, budget, etc) Even the best shows are often only truly loved for a handful of episodes with only a handful of shows every few years capable of churning out consistently great content.
Someone mentioned earlier there were rumors about what the show was supposed to end like and how it actually does, if it has in fact been changed to accommodate another season. Would be good to actually see a link or something. I'm certainly not going to go looking for any of that stuff before the show concludes and risk spoiling the show for myself, but afterwards it might make for an interesting read.
There are articles out there. They don't give the sense that anything was changed (for a season 2, a lot was changed for other reasons), just that McGregor would love to do another season, and the director & others are playing coy about whether they would do it if Disney asked.
"It's no secret that the Obi-Wan Kenobi project was long in limbo, as Lucasfilm struggled to decide on its story, not to mention its format. Before it was reworked to be a Disney+ series, it was originally going to be a film as part of the A Star Wars Story anthology banner. Once it was retooled to be a show, The Mandalorian storyline similarities caused a number of rewrites. Ultimately, director Deborah Chow cracked Obi-Wan's arc with Harold as they decided it should be about his secret history rescuing a young Leia Organa"
Seriously, there were MORE similarities to Mando than 'main character returns force sensitive child to where she belonged?' Really?
I feel it's wasted too much of its runtime repeating its initial set up:
Part 1 - Obi is down and out. Leia is kidnapped. Part 2 - Obi rescues Leia and escapes. Part 3 - Obi continues to escape with Leia. Leia is kidnapped. Again. Part 4 - Obi rescues Leia (again) and escapes (again). Part 5 - Obi continues to escape (again!).
Like... what else can happen? Obi takes Leia back to Bail and Vader just goes "Aw shucks! He got away! Next time Kenobi! Next time!!!"
H.B.M.C. wrote: So what can this show do to stick the landing?
I feel it's wasted too much of its runtime repeating its initial set up:
Part 1 - Obi is down and out. Leia is kidnapped.
Part 2 - Obi rescues Leia and escapes.
Part 3 - Obi continues to escape with Leia. Leia is kidnapped. Again.
Part 4 - Obi rescues Leia (again) and escapes (again).
Part 5 - Obi continues to escape (again!).
Like... what else can happen? Obi takes Leia back to Bail and Vader just goes "Aw shucks! He got away! Next time Kenobi! Next time!!!"
Seriously. How does this wrap up in a single episode that doesn't put Leia at incredible risk for the rest of her life and makes sense when Vader has interactions with her in A New Hope? What fething corner have they written themselves into?
It's possible (and somewhat implied early in the season) that the galactic senate still has some power. Enough that going after Bail openly is something the Inquisitors can't do and if they can't do it's because Palpatine doesn't want them to. He didn't dissolve the Senate until ANH, so while there are some very action and secret plan ways this can end, it can also end with Bail showing up, taking Leia, and leaving and Vader being forced to stand down and leave it be. Palpatine doesn't have his hate boner for Obi-Wan and would care more about keeping the Senate in line until he can get rid of it.
Spoiler:
This could tie in with the whole Reva sub-plot and why Vader/the Grant Inquisitor didn't just do it themselves. They let Reva do it knowing they could always toss her a under a bus later as a rogue element if the Senate got uppity.
LordofHats wrote: It's possible (and somewhat implied early in the season) that the galactic senate still has some power. Enough that going after Bail openly is something the Inquisitors can't do and if they can't do it's because Palpatine doesn't want them to. He didn't dissolve the Senate until ANH, so while there are some very action and secret plan ways this can end, it can also end with Bail showing up, taking Leia, and leaving and Vader being forced to stand down and leave it be. Palpatine doesn't have his hate boner for Obi-Wan and would care more about keeping the Senate in line until he can get rid of it.
Let's see if I'm right again!
I feel like this is pretty much the only play they have now, and it's really terrible when you actually write out how little has actually happened between all the episodes.
The bigger problem is will people buy it? It's actually completely in line with the canon (irony?) but usually the Empire is depicted as an all powerful tyrannical state that does what it wants and isn't beholden to anyone or anything. Star Wars had this same problem in the prequel trilogy and in Clone Wars. It's generally suffered trying to explain the dynamics of power. Which is a pretty common problem in a lot of fiction and isn't just a Star Wars thing. Star Wars just has a history of running into a wall trying to make galatic politics a topic while also having a plot so simple someone who partied their way through college can understand it.
warboss wrote: The show clearly needs a song and dance number for the big finale. Also, on a completely unrelated note, I started watching RRR today for a bit.
I mean they did Rogers! The Musical in Hawkeye, I wouldn't bat an eye now if they literally ended a show off with a modern rendition of the Life Day Song from the Star Wars Holiday Special as the ultimate nostalgia bomb for the finale.
Overall thoughts so far: decent, not great. IMO it's definitely doing a good job of putting the last nail in the coffin of a single canon though. I think the best way to enjoy these shows is to consider them separate takes on the general theme and not put too much effort into trying to rationalize everything into a single timeline. Otherwise you end up with stuff like the old-canon article on the evacuation from Yavin, where the rebels evacuated and returned a dozen times to somehow make all of the different video games/comics/etc fit into a single canon. I'll take a single canon where it makes sense but I'm beyond getting too upset about conflicts as long as movie/show still stands on its own.
Lance845 wrote: Seriously. How does this wrap up in a single episode that doesn't put Leia at incredible risk for the rest of her life and makes sense when Vader has interactions with her in A New Hope? What fething corner have they written themselves into?
Does Vader really care? At this point Leia is just some random senator's kid and it wasn't even Vader's own plan to kidnap her. Why would Vader care about following up on his idiot subordinate's failed plan, especially after casually disposing of her and putting her boss back in charge?
LordofHats wrote: The bigger problem is will people buy it? It's actually completely in line with the canon (irony?) but usually the Empire is depicted as an all powerful tyrannical state that does what it wants and isn't beholden to anyone or anything. Star Wars had this same problem in the prequel trilogy and in Clone Wars. It's generally suffered trying to explain the dynamics of power. Which is a pretty common problem in a lot of fiction and isn't just a Star Wars thing. Star Wars just has a history of running into a wall trying to make galatic politics a topic while also having a plot so simple someone who partied their way through college can understand it.
I'd buy something like that no problem. It's been shown over and over again that the Empire isn't all-powerful. Pretty much the first line of dialogue in the movie is Leia trying to claim diplomatic immunity, Tarkin's subordinates are concerned with the senate being upset, Tatooine is shown as a backwater largely beyond the Empire's control, the rebellion manages to operate an entire fleet of mile-long space battleships, etc. What we see is a state that wants to become all-powerful and tyrannical but is still in the process of finishing off the last opposition. So I think it would work just fine for Leia to be returned home, idiot subordinate to be blamed for acting without authorization, and nobody being able to move openly against her parents without proof of their treason.
Lance845 wrote: Seriously. How does this wrap up in a single episode that doesn't put Leia at incredible risk for the rest of her life and makes sense when Vader has interactions with her in A New Hope? What fething corner have they written themselves into?
This is the problem that Disney+ shows have as a whole.
Each episode is 2 acts of a 3 act story, choosing to resolve the third act as the first act of the next episode, and this rolls over until you have episodes that don't go anywhere from a narrative perspective (it's why Hawkeye never had a plot, as the first 5 episodes were all set up to a bland payoff, and why Moon Knight had a very interesting protagonist stuck in a world that wasn't nearly as interesting). Pamphlet of Fett couldn't even manage to stick with its main character for its entire run, taking a 2 episode detour to visit someone we cared far more about.
And as they insist on having 6 episodes, and worse, making these bizarre 30-ish minute episodes (+15 minutes of credits) rather than letting the stories play out, nothing ever feels narratively satisfying, like they need us to come back next week to see the part of the story they left off. It's a subscription service, not network TV. We're already paying to see this. We're coming back.
You can criticise Netflix all you like for their release schedule, but in the (immensely strong) Stranger Things Season 4, they've let the episodes be as long as they need to be. The stories feel complex and complete. The cliffhanger at the end of Season 4 part one felt like a cliffhanger, and not, to go back to Hawkeye, an episode never comes back after the commercial because the writers confused an act break with a completed script (in this instance, the moment where Swordsman puts his blade to Clint... and the episode just stops!).
There's an art to 'leave them wanting more', but most of the time with D+ shows it just comes across as 'leave them feeling cheated'.
warboss wrote: The show clearly needs a song and dance number for the big finale. Also, on a completely unrelated note, I started watching RRR today for a bit.
I mean they did Rogers! The Musical in Hawkeye, I wouldn't bat an eye now if they literally ended a show off with a modern rendition of the Life Day Song from the Star Wars Holiday Special as the ultimate nostalgia bomb for the finale.
CadianSgtBob wrote: Does Vader really care? At this point Leia is just some random senator's kid and it wasn't even Vader's own plan to kidnap her. Why would Vader care about following up on his idiot subordinate's failed plan, especially after casually disposing of her and putting her boss back in charge?
Vader doesn't have any reason to care about Leia specifically, but given that Reva's plan of using her as bait to lure out Kenobi worked, it would seem to leave her (or her foster parents) a target so long as Vader thinks Kenobi is still alive. So my guess is that the finale will include something to make Vader think Obi Wan is dead.
insaniak wrote: Vader doesn't have any reason to care about Leia specifically, but given that Reva's plan of using her as bait to lure out Kenobi worked, it would seem to leave her (or her foster parents) a target so long as Vader thinks Kenobi is still alive. So my guess is that the finale will include something to make Vader think Obi Wan is dead.
Worked maybe, but at what cost? Reva's boss calling her a raging lunatic for kidnapping a senator's kid makes it pretty clear that even the Empire's top people have limits. My read on it is that Vader is willing to go along with the plan with his disposable minion set to take the blame and give him plausible deniability, but making use of a plan where the price is already paid is very different from ordering a second threat against her with no plausible deniability available. And remember, Vader doesn't know she's anything special beyond being related to one of Obi Wan's old war buddies. There's probably a long list of potential targets Vader could threaten without going after a powerful senator. A shift in priorities seems a lot more likely than Vader thinking his biggest enemy is dead but somehow not being surprised at all to see him alive in ANH.
It also fits neatly with what we see in ANH: despite it being an open secret that Leia and Alderaan are aiding the rebellion the Empire is still reluctant to move openly against them and Leia seems to have a credible belief that her excuse of diplomatic immunity will work on them. And that's after a decade more of the Empire consolidating its power.
No spoilers at all. I enjoyed it, but I think it may prove a bit divisive. Not in a Prequels way, just bits I think some will enjoy and others won’t.
Overall really rather good. Series would perhaps have benefitted from being a movie, but I’m not sure what you could really cut (other than part 4) plot wise. Like Rogue One, I don’t think anyone needs to see this series, but it does add some fun context here and there. Importantly I don’t think it detracts from what came before, nor causes any confusion/plot conflicts. I’ll go into those at a later time, once others have had a chance to watch and digest and form your own opinions.
Little Leia remains the stand out character and actress for me. Wouldn’t mind seeing her pop up elsewhere (and they’ve 9 years of “what happened next” to play with, for good or for ill. And I wouldn’t say anyone was deadweight character or actor wise.
Watched it, liked it well enough. Was it necessary? No. Was it at least an entertaining few hours and better than the incoherent mess of Boba Fett? Absolutely. Spoilers since it's still early morning for most people:
Spoiler:
Definitely liked the resolution to the final fight. Neither one is dead, Vader still lost his most recent encounter and can give the "now I am the master" line, and Obi Wan is set in his "you're dead to me" verdict.
The thing with Luke gets a bit weird with ANH. He gets dad's lightsaber and it's a new thing, not "oh hey I remember that creepy woman tried to kill me with one of these!". And Owen gets his ass kicked by an evil jedi but still wants to send away the only guy who might be able to stop Luke from getting chopped into tiny pieces next time one shows up?
Clearly the star destroyer gunners went to the storm trooper marksmanship school, but I guess that's standard when the heroes are aboard.
Definitely agree that the girl playing Leia nailed it. Can 100% see how she becomes the OT character we love.
Wow, that was a bad finale trying to tape up all the loose ends that the show unnecessarily cut. From the most obvious babyface turn in Star Wars and copy of a copy "fan service" to the crap green screen reshoot effects at a pivotal moment and jarring poorly staged reunions, this really was amateur hour big budget fanfic on the small screen. It's as if they combined The Last Jedi with Rise of Skywalker to make a streaming show. That, like Boba Fett, should have been a four hour mini-series at most without the padding and maybe it would have as a whole been elevated to "good" potentially. Three duels between Anakin and Vader (including the fake out that didn't happen) when the Ep3 finale to the prequels was plenty? Ugh...
The Vader fight was the best part. Right up until Obi Wan started doing his magical rock barrage.
I mean. I feel like it was a pretty important bit that Yoda says "a Jedi use the force for knowledge and defense and never attack." Turning Obi using the force in a clear barrage of offensive displays as a heroic moment should be a terrible moment of falling to the dark side.
I can't believe that Reva stayed evil, killed Owen, Beru and Luke, took Vader's place and became the Emperor! And - although I could be wrong about this - I think Darth Vader is Luke/Leia's father!
Spoiler:
Oh no, wait, that didn't happen. Instead what we knew would happen happened. I tell ya: From that first damned trailer I knew she wouldn't be a bad guy by the end. I thought I would happen earlier, around the mid-point, but the end result is the same. Can't have prominent new characters actually be evil unless they're irredeemably bad. That's not the Disney way! She can join Boba "The Crimelord of No More Crime!" Fett and Iden "Instant Rebel" Verso in the ranks of bad guys who went soft real fast thanks to the Mouse House.
Overall...
Spoiler:
... this show had a much better finish than I was expecting (or that it deserved). It actually resolved things, however hastily (some might say ham-fistedly in the case of the Reva nonsense), and we got another really affecting Obi/Leia scene towards the end when he talks about her real parents.
The actual fight was good. Now Vader's little speech in ANH rings true. I never thought their little scuffle in episode 3 would be their only confrontation - my God, can you imagine if it had? - but it was nice to see a proper fight. Didn't expect the force-rock slinging on such a massive level, and it makes me wonder why they weren't doing that kinda stuff in ROTS (but trust that film to find a way to disappoint me again nearly 20 years after its release! ).
Overall a cool fight though, and I especially liked the way they cracked Vader's helmet, and we got the blending of Hayden and JEJ's voices, just like in Rebels. I take it Vader has a stock of those helmets, as it's going to happen to him again in a few years. Of course, during the "Your strength has returned, but the weakness remains. And that is why you will always lose!" instantly made me think of this. :rofl:
I don't know why the director thought that it would be a good idea to have a figure dressed all in black chase someone through a pitch-black desert at night. That was Battle of Winterfel levels of "WTF is going on?". Even having her searching with her sabre out would have given some indication of... location!
Can we expect Star Wars: Roken to be the next announcement from LucasFilm? Sure feels that way. Not that mind Mini Cube as an actor, but that whole group of characters were rather ill defined and just kind of dumped on us like we were meant to give a gak (pour one out for Wade, y'all... assuming you can remember which one he was!).
Boy it took a long time for the Devastator to not destroy/disable them. Were they using the Lego version of that ship, or something?
Beru was cool. And she got more than a single word this time around. Very pleased.
I was very happy with Qui-Gon showing up. Boy what a waste of time that excellent 5 minute prequel recap would'a been if they hadn't paid that off. Shame it's all we got, but I'll take it.
So overall I'd give this episode a 7 out of 10. Well above average. Certainly far better than I thought it'd be.
Overall the series gets a 4/10 because, well, to recap:
Part 1 - Obi is down and out. Leia is kidnapped. Part 2 - Obi rescues Leia and escapes. Part 3 - Obi continues to escape with Leia. Leia is kidnapped. Again. Part 4 - Obi rescues Leia (again) and escapes (again). Part 5 - Obi continues to escape (again!). Part 6 - Obi decides to stop escaping and just fight. The series main villain turns good, like she was always going to.
Bring on Andor, a show that seems to be ditching the Disney+ Curse and actually giving itself room to breathe and tell its story.
Consistency died the moment Boba Fett decided that he needed to fight for "his people", the people of a small Tatooinian town out in the wastes who he'd never met. It's a shock he didn't end the episode calling them "family", Fast & Furious style.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I can't believe that Reva stayed evil, killed Owen, Beru and Luke, took Vader's place and became the Emperor! And - although I could be wrong about this - I think Darth Vader is Luke/Leia's father!
Yeah, they telegraphed that early on. The only part that surprised me was when she took a porg as her own secret apprentice. Expectations subverted!
Lance845 wrote: The Vader fight was the best part. Right up until Obi Wan started doing his magical rock barrage.
I mean. I feel like it was a pretty important bit that Yoda says "a Jedi use the force for knowledge and defense and never attack." Turning Obi using the force in a clear barrage of offensive displays as a heroic moment should be a terrible moment of falling to the dark side.
But whatever. Consistency is dead.
Not sure I agree.
Obi-Wan was clearly emotional, even using his hatred to some degree. Not a loss of control as such, but definitely Not Thinking Nice Thoughts.
Memory is failing your Yoda quote was OT or Prequels. If OT, it could be Yoda trying to steer Luke away from being corrupted as he was during the Clone Wars?
Well that happened, like I might have said before was okay(ish) if you judge it as a live action carry on of Clone Wars/Rebels, although a little baffled how grumpy Quistor lady seem to be able fast travel to Tattooenie
The big fight was somewhat Ahsoka / Vader but hey lightsabers
Still think you could squish it down to two long (1h30-2h) specials with a bit of determined editing mind
Spoiler:
And if you gonna memberberry make em big Orish memberberrys
I liked it. A decent finale to a generally rocky show.
I think I may have said the same thing about Book of Bobba, but I think this (and the show at large) were better in general.
Overall it seems like the showrunners had a few ideas they were really excited about and those got a lot of development, while a lot of the connecting tissue feels underdeveloped. This episode clearly had a lot of the ideas they were really excited about.
At the end of the day though, the show felt really cheap to me. They didn't screw up the perspective with the volume this episode (at least, I don't think they did,) it's still really really obvious they're in a sparse empty space - almost as obvious as the bluescreen rooms in the prequels.
I am now convinced that as well as building deathstars, building ISDs was also an error. They seem to - with Cap ship firepower - be unable to shoot freighters. Actually now all those inspection missions in Tie Fighter make sense. The Empire weren't trying to kill me, it is just genuinely they can't get the big ships to do anything useful.
Shame Vaders flagship only has 2 troop transports and 1 shuttle onboard.
The_Real_Chris wrote: I am now convinced that as well as building deathstars, building ISDs was also an error. They seem to - with Cap ship firepower - be unable to shoot freighters. Actually now all those inspection missions in Tie Fighter make sense. The Empire weren't trying to kill me, it is just genuinely they can't get the big ships to do anything useful.
Shame Vaders flagship only has 2 troop transports and 1 shuttle onboard.
Except that they can keep up with them at sublight. Yet another slow speed freighter chase... I had been hoping that the previous cinema one was the last. The opening of ANH was epic because it was the absolute end and got quickly to a satisfying conclusion with the boarding.
warboss wrote: The opening of ANH was epic because it was the absolute end and got quickly to a satisfying conclusion with the boarding.
And that last bit is the key part. The OT had some "run away from the star destroyer" moments but they wrapped up reasonably quickly. Here the star destroyer just keeps shooting as the freighter barely dodges and it just never ends. It all went on long enough that I had actually forgotten they were being shot at, and even for a hero ship that's just stupid.
The_Real_Chris wrote: I am now convinced that as well as building deathstars, building ISDs was also an error. They seem to - with Cap ship firepower - be unable to shoot freighters. Actually now all those inspection missions in Tie Fighter make sense. The Empire weren't trying to kill me, it is just genuinely they can't get the big ships to do anything useful.
Shame Vaders flagship only has 2 troop transports and 1 shuttle onboard.
The Star Destroyer actually has a full complement of TIEs, but Vader only bought gas for a fiver.
Vader wouldn't have any way to know that the ship they were pursuing had hyperdrive trouble. If he's chasing them down on the assumption that they could go to light speed at any moment he was probably taking a chance on his crew being able to guess their destination based on the vector and making the kill in the next system - which he probably wouldn't have been able to do if the destroyer had to spend time recovering ties before departing.
Even without the TIEs the star destroyer's own guns should have been able to finish it off. When we see Han in the OT running from star destroyers it's desperation time, the shields can only take a few hits before stuff starts failing and destruction is imminent. But this random freighter can somehow survive an extended chase while everyone calmly has their tearful goodbyes, Obi Wan takes the time to try calling his old boss for advice, and the crew calmly works to fix the broken hyperdrive. It's a complete miss on pacing and plausibility.
Vader wouldn't have any way to know that the ship they were pursuing had hyperdrive trouble. If he's chasing them down on the assumption that they could go to light speed at any moment he was probably taking a chance on his crew being able to guess their destination based on the vector and making the kill in the next system - which he probably wouldn't have been able to do if the destroyer had to spend time recovering ties before departing.
Doesn't track. Vader wouldn't give a dead womp rat about 'recovering Ties,' especially while chasing Kenobi.
CadianSgtBob wrote: Even without the TIEs the star destroyer's own guns should have been able to finish it off. When we see Han in the OT running from star destroyers it's desperation time, the shields can only take a few hits before stuff starts failing and destruction is imminent. But this random freighter can somehow survive an extended chase while everyone calmly has their tearful goodbyes, Obi Wan takes the time to try calling his old boss for advice, and the crew calmly works to fix the broken hyperdrive. It's a complete miss on pacing and plausibility.
Unlike the Falcon, this freighter clearly is an exceptionally well constructed piece of junk.
Vader wouldn't have any way to know that the ship they were pursuing had hyperdrive trouble. If he's chasing them down on the assumption that they could go to light speed at any moment he was probably taking a chance on his crew being able to guess their destination based on the vector and making the kill in the next system - which he probably wouldn't have been able to do if the destroyer had to spend time recovering ties before departing.
Doesn't track. Vader wouldn't give a dead womp rat about 'recovering Ties,' especially while chasing Kenobi.
Yeah, and if you don't want to play up the callous nature of the Empire, the Imperial navy also has more than one ship, and TIEs don't suddenly implode from loneliness and neglect, and Vader's ship has a phone. Pickup for left behind troops can be arranged even if Vader takes his own ship on an extended cruise.
Voss wrote: Doesn't track. Vader wouldn't give a dead womp rat about 'recovering Ties,' especially while chasing Kenobi.
Maybe not, but in his situation if the ship hasn't jumped to light speed yet he's going to consider the reasons why: a technical fault is possible but he just got clowned on because he underestimated Kenobi last episode. The alternative, cautious consideration then, is that they're stalling for some reason, and if there's a chance Kenobi is trying to bait him into wasting some or all of his fighter compliment, Vader's going to want to deduce why rather than underestimate him a second time.
I do agree that would have been the better play though: Stop firing the big guns, launch two two-fighter flight elements to pick apart its engines, and if the freighter bugs out chase after it telling the tie pilots to go back to the planet and touch down and wait for rescue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Geifer wrote: Yeah, and if you don't want to play up the callous nature of the Empire, the Imperial navy also has more than one ship, and TIEs don't suddenly implode from loneliness and neglect, and Vader's ship has a phone. Pickup for left behind troops can be arranged even if Vader takes his own ship on an extended cruise.
Ideally this is the reason the star destroyers should be operating in pairs with a tender fleet of support craft - in fact a gozanti would be enough to ensure the ties wouldn't be stranded but maybe they forgot to pack them in the rush?
Ugh, the ending part with Reva was dumb as usual. Pretty much no explanation for how she survived the gut wound besides "sith hate stronk". With how little development she has, her subplot really seems rushed and unearned with her heelturn, I really would have preferred if Owen ended up shooting her in the head when she was talking with Obi-Wan. Seems like a really bad set up for her to have her own spin-off show, so hopefully the generally bad reception to the show makes them second guess or deter her from being a main lead.
Also, I get that Obi-Wan got the absolution he was looking for from Anakin, but is there a specific reason why he lets him live....again? Besides for canon reasons? I thought at the very least Vader would end up getting back up that prevents Obi Wan from delivering the finishing blow.
Grimskul wrote: Ugh, the ending part with Reva was dumb as usual. Pretty much no explanation for how she survived the gut wound besides "sith hate stronk". With how little development she has, her subplot really seems rushed and unearned with her heelturn, I really would have preferred if Owen ended up shooting her in the head when she was talking with Obi-Wan. Seems like a really bad set up for her to have her own spin-off show, so hopefully the generally bad reception to the show makes them second guess or deter her from being a main lead.
I don't think they're setting her up for a show... a novel series, maybe. She's definitely more of a 'book' flavoured character. Frankly I was more interested in what happened to her because she's the only actor on this show that isn't spoken for in later movies.
Grimskul wrote: Also, I get that Obi-Wan got the absolution he was looking for from Anakin, but is there a specific reason why he lets him live....again? Besides for canon reasons? I thought at the very least Vader would end up getting back up that prevents Obi Wan from delivering the finishing blow.
I loved that little talk, but yeah, doesn't really make sense that Obi-Wan would leave him there (excepting of course, the qualities that make him a decent human being that also prevented him from killing his friend at the end of Revenge of the Sith). If anything I'd have done it in the opposite order, have Obi-Wan bang him up real good at the start of the fight, have them talk, then have Vader take the upper hand with Kenobi rattled. Then do the rocks in the pit gag, but at a larger scale, and require Obi-Wan to escape.
Captain Joystick wrote: [I loved that little talk, but yeah, doesn't really make sense that Obi-Wan would leave him there (excepting of course, the qualities that make him a decent human being that also prevented him from killing his friend at the end of Revenge of the Sith).
Those qualities are exactly the point. He wins the fight, he knows he should kill the enemy for practical reasons, and he still can't bring himself to kill his old friend as he lies helpless on the ground.
If anything I'd have done it in the opposite order, have Obi-Wan bang him up real good at the start of the fight, have them talk, then have Vader take the upper hand with Kenobi rattled. Then do the rocks in the pit gag, but at a larger scale, and require Obi-Wan to escape.
That doesn't fit the "now I am the master" bit from ANH. Obi Wan had to win this fight if it was going to happen at all, otherwise Vader wouldn't be acknowledging that last time they met Obi Wan was the winner. It would be "lolWTF old man, I almost killed you last time what do you think is going to happen here?".
Voss wrote: Doesn't track. Vader wouldn't give a dead womp rat about 'recovering Ties,' especially while chasing Kenobi.
Maybe not, but in his situation if the ship hasn't jumped to light speed yet he's going to consider the reasons why: a technical fault is possible but he just got clowned on because he underestimated Kenobi last episode. The alternative, cautious consideration then, is that they're stalling for some reason, and if there's a chance Kenobi is trying to bait him into wasting some or all of his fighter compliment, Vader's going to want to deduce why rather than underestimate him a second time.
That seems entirely out of character, however. They've harped on and on about how goal focused and impatient he is, and (especially in Clone Wars) legit hypredrive failures are almost an everyday part of his lived experience.
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Grimskul wrote: Ugh, the ending part with Reva was dumb as usual. Pretty much no explanation for how she survived the gut wound besides "sith hate stronk". With how little development she has, her subplot really seems rushed and unearned with her heelturn, I really would have preferred if Owen ended up shooting her in the head when she was talking with Obi-Wan. Seems like a really bad set up for her to have her own spin-off show, so hopefully the generally bad reception to the show makes them second guess or deter her from being a main lead.
That seems 100% a writer issue, not an actress issue.
A Force character straddling the GrimDark and NobleBright (but philosophically stupid) would be a refreshing change. Especially without a pre-scripted fate.
Voss wrote: Doesn't track. Vader wouldn't give a dead womp rat about 'recovering Ties,' especially while chasing Kenobi.
Maybe not, but in his situation if the ship hasn't jumped to light speed yet he's going to consider the reasons why: a technical fault is possible but he just got clowned on because he underestimated Kenobi last episode. The alternative, cautious consideration then, is that they're stalling for some reason, and if there's a chance Kenobi is trying to bait him into wasting some or all of his fighter compliment, Vader's going to want to deduce why rather than underestimate him a second time.
That seems entirely out of character, however. They've harped on and on about how goal focused and impatient he is, and (especially in Clone Wars) legit hypredrive failures are almost an everyday part of his lived experience.
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Grimskul wrote: Ugh, the ending part with Reva was dumb as usual. Pretty much no explanation for how she survived the gut wound besides "sith hate stronk". With how little development she has, her subplot really seems rushed and unearned with her heelturn, I really would have preferred if Owen ended up shooting her in the head when she was talking with Obi-Wan. Seems like a really bad set up for her to have her own spin-off show, so hopefully the generally bad reception to the show makes them second guess or deter her from being a main lead.
That seems 100% a writer issue, not an actress issue.
A Force character straddling the GrimDark and NobleBright (but philosophically stupid) would be a refreshing change. Especially without a pre-scripted fate.
I'm pretty iffy on the actress herself personally, but it's definitely more on the writer's side of her depiction being handled so poorly. The dumb part is that whole "grey jedi" not Sith/not Jedi thing was already handled way better with people like Asajj Ventress and even Ahsokha to some extent.
Having been a Jedi, she won’t have really known her family, and now she’s walked away from a clearly traumatic 10 years.
She may fall back on Jedi instincts and get involved in The Rebellion. But she’s also relatively free to just…..sod off. Live her life for her for the first time. Vader and The Grand Inquisitor both believe she’s dead, so provided she doesn’t go drawing too much attention? As Obi-Wan said, she is free.
Nobody is looking for her. She may well simply Exit Stage Left and live out her days in peace and quiet.
The upside is that maybe whoever handles the Reva character next will have a better shot at the character. Her problem throughout Obi-Wan was being an overwrought plot device with bad character development. Maybe another story/writer can use her for something better.
If anyone bothers to tune in if it ever happens. To be fair, she wouldn't be the first addition to the universe to be loathed at her introduction only to go on and become a huge and fan loved character in the hands of better writers and after getting a lot more development (Ahsoka says hi).
I just finished the season finally and I think I can give a verdict to the show.
Overall, I would give it a solid 7.5/10. The first two episodes were probably the weakest and the last two were by far the best. The scenario was pretty basic, but fine enough. My biggest gripes were actually rather inconsequential choices like the two Leia chasse scenes which were rendered ridiculous by the slow running speed of the actress. The "hiding Leia in the trench coat" was also a stupid choice though also completely without consequences.
The greatest quality was the acting of both McGregor and the child actress playing Leia (seriously, it's really rare to see such good acting from kids). Whoever played Vader's body was also excellent and both Christensen and James Earl Johns did a great job for the rest. The dramatic scenes like Obi-Wan and Vader's two encounters, Reva's betrayal and the death of the rebel leader were pretty darn on point; even from a visual standpoint.
The biggest thing I get out of this series though is that it really shines a huge spotlight on the biggest weaknesses of the the OT, especially the Vader is Luke Skywalker's father and Obi-Wan Kenobi's former friend and apprentice plot point and the pretty terrible acting performance of Alec Guinness (amongst others). Considering the intensity of the last duel between Vader and Kenobi during the season finally and even more of their conversation afterward, every scene acted by Guinness look so underwhelming and emotionless.
The show gets better as you watch. Ep 5-6 were great. Really bad episode 1.... not sure why. I just didnt like it. It was really clunky
Reva is a mary sue but.... I no longer hate her as a character. If they hire new writers I can see her being great in another setting. I don't think the across was the best choice. Actress is barely in anything. I think they could have casted Lesley Ann-Brandt and she would have had a lot more anger/sith/evil sort of vibe.
Overall: Far better than Boba Fett, and I'd say this is as good as Mando. However if you're not into SW I'd say Mando would be a better show.
Actually, this is where I would have a mild "comparison" critique. All live action Star Wars have an awesome soundtrack. Even the Book of Boba, which was very meh at best, had an excellent score. Obi-Wan Kenobi had an okay to good score which makes it comparatively weaker than the other shows in the franchise.
It's actually as present as in any other Star Wars movie of series, perhaps even a little bit more. the "Inquisitor Brass Chorus" is currently stuck in my head.
AduroT wrote: Reva is in no way a Mary Sue. She’d have to actually be successful or overly competent for that. She only manages about a 50% track rate.
Honestly 50% is probably generous since most of everything she did in the series was 'according to plan' and the plan wasn't hers. She spent the entire show being played by someone.
And on top of that there's nothing wrong with the actress. She carries herself as someone seething with anger and drive quite well. The problem is that the writing completely left her out to dry for most of the series. The moments in episode 5 that should have been the biggest for her character were IMO, done badly on the part of direction and production. They completely undersold her reveal moment with Kenobi (putting a stupid amount of emotion and drama into another character who frankly, is a pointless extra) and then the whole thing with Vader just felt like they wanted everyone to see how awesome Vader is while Reva just gets stomped with no real showing. Even when someone loses you can make them seem cool.
Reva was the narrative equivalent of cannon fodder but somehow she's supposed to feel like her own character except for the whole point of cannon fodder being that they're utterly expendable.
LordofHats wrote: the whole thing with Vader just felt like they wanted everyone to see how awesome Vader is while Reva just gets stomped with no real showing. Even when someone loses you can make them seem cool.
I do agree that the duel between Reva and Vader was basically a huge curb stomping that mostly served to show how unbeatable Vader can be to a normal Jedi/Sith. They could have given her a slightly better showing by letting her at least put up some resistance though I don't think it would have changed anything significant, but it does fit the Star Wars narrative when it comes to fights. If you go in angry with the aim to kill, you always lose. In a sense Vader feeds off her anger towards him to beat her up with it; he doesn't even intend to kill so much so as to make her suffer. Vader also beats down Obi-Wan when it seems the later goes into a fight either afraid or angry at him and its only when Obi-Wan focuses on the people he loves and desires to protect that he can defeat him. In the same vein, when Luke first fight Vader and gets his ass kicked, he is trying to kill him or at beat him to avenge Ben and his father. When they fight again, he wants to save him and his sister and that's when he wins. The only time a character wins a fight in which they wanted to kill the enemy for revenge is when Obi-Wan defeats Maul in the Phantom Menace.
Star Wars continues to suffer from its preposterously bizarre relationship with time. Somehow in the first few minutes of ep 6 alone, we learn that Vader has apparently been chasing Kenobi's blockade runner so long, Reva has somehow managed to find her way off the lifeless rock she was left on.
To wit I point out Star Wars continues to suffer from its preposterously bizarre relationship with barren wastelands. Where on this barren wasteland did Reva find a ship to get off the planet and get all the way to Tatoinne? It almost feels like Reva was meant to die but then they added this bit on for the series to pad out the run time.
I call bs on Obi-wan leaving Vader to live. God what an anti-climatic clap trap. It makes no sense whatsoever. It's done solely because they both have to live but Obi-Wan also apparently isn't allowed to lose or whatever so he has to win the fight, be one step away from a huge victory, and then just let it go for zero reason. Completely ruins a potentially epic moment in Vader showing kindness to his old master, which maybe was meant to mean Obi-Wan spared Anakain cause there was still good in him? Seems to completely contradict what he said to Luke so that can't be it. What a waste of a scene.
They could have even just had him sense that Luke was in danger and run off. I would have bought that and it's especially eye rolling because they do that right after he spares Vader for no reason. You lazy gaks you could have done that in post!
fething dumb.
They never ever address why people wouldn't keep going after Leia for Obi-wan. They explain why Vader doesn't, but what about the inquisitors? I can think of reasons but it feels lazy on the writers part to leave this gapping hole here. In the end the entire plot seems to just ask us to forget all the reasons the plot started with and clap for the happy ending.
I guess we'll see Reva again but as for her role in this series, yeah. They left it really unclear why Reva went after Luke. The obvious reason is she figured out he was Anakin's kid, but the story doesn't do anything to support that and if Luke is just some kid Obi-Wan is protecting then why does she care? Then she just lets him live and... yeah.
Who gives a gak anymore? Stuff just happens with this character in this series and it's nothing but an overlong trailer to her own plotline or whatever. Another entry in the Chrome-Punk Biker gang club of characters who are introduced to sell a spinoff later but are pointless in the series they're actually introduced in. Shame for the character. Shame for me. Better luck next time I guess.
Things I liked;
Spoiler:
Lightsaber battles really are just better without all the jumping and flipping and completely absurdly overdone choreography. The final fight between Vader and Kenobi is really really a great return to the simpler choreography of the OT and it's really nice.
At least in like, the first third. Then we're back to the overdone spinning and force rocks stuff. Works better in video games than film. Oh well take what I can get.
I'd almost complain about the sudden reveal that Owen and Beru are badasses (this is how characters can 'lose' and still be cool) but it's honestly awesome so I'ma not complain about it. Owen and his wife are fething awesome.
Finally, they did actually do something with Vader's apparently cooler attitude in ANH. Kind of lazy the way they did it, but I guess it works. Who wants to bet we'll get a Vader series at some point about Vader getting better at the Dark Side? There's a range of popular comics that are basically all about that.
6/10 or whatever. I feel like the last 2 episodes really fell apart narratively, suffering from how the story started as a film plot and mismanaged one of the key characters for the story constantly hurt the show. McGregor and Blair as Obi-Wan and Leia are the highlights of the cast.
LordofHats wrote: Where on this barren wasteland did Reva find a ship to get off the planet and get all the way to Tatoinne?
That's definitely not an issue IMO. Yeah, the planet is a wasteland but her fight with Vader takes place at the local spaceport facility and we'd already seen at least one extra ship available to use as a decoy. It's not really straining plausibility much to assume she was able to find another ship nearby.
I call bs on Obi-wan leaving Vader to live. God what an anti-climatic clap trap. It makes no sense whatsoever. It's done solely because they both have to live but Obi-Wan also apparently isn't allowed to lose or whatever so he has to win the fight, be one step away from a huge victory, and then just let it go for zero reason. Completely ruins a potentially epic moment in Vader showing kindness to his old master, which maybe was meant to mean Obi-Wan spared Anakain cause there was still good in him? Seems to completely contradict what he said to Luke so that can't be it. What a waste of a scene.
This I absolutely disagree with. Vader can't win because any confrontation between them has to fit Vader's "now I am the master" line in ANH. Obi Wan can evade the confrontation and have their ROTS duel be the last fight that Vader is referring to, or they can fight and Obi Wan wins. And I don't think sparing him has anything to do with seeing good in him. He just can't bring himself to kill his old friend as he sits helpless on the ground. You see in his expression that he knows he needs to do it for the greater good and that Anakin is gone, but he can't overcome his own feelings and has to leave. IMO it's as good a resolution as we're going to get given the assumption that they fight at all.
They could have even just had him sense that Luke was in danger and run off. I would have bought that and it's especially eye rolling because they do that right after he spares Vader for no reason. You lazy gaks you could have done that in post!
IMO that would make much less sense. You're determined to kill Vader but can't spare a few seconds to finish him off before running away to save Luke? When the biggest thing you could do to protect Luke is to kill the guy who would stop at nothing to get him if he ever found out Luke exists? That would have felt like such an awkward Because Plot Said So moment.
They explain why Vader doesn't, but what about the inquisitors?
This was explained. The boss inquisitor explicitly calls Reva an idiot for going after a senator's kid and only goes along with the plan because the damage is already done.
Mary Sue's are typically characters where everything comes super easy to them, have abilities that they shouldn't realistically have (ie. never earned/trained for), they suffer no setbacks, and win at everything forever without any adequate explanation. So, basically Rey in Episodes 8 and 9.
CadianSgtBob wrote: He just can't bring himself to kill his old friend as he sits helpless on the ground.
He seemed to have no problem trying to get Luke to kill him later and why did he even bother facing Vader if he wasn't going to finish it? Why pursue him after being given a get away card?
It's nonsense. Maybe they're just trying to canonize the Obi-Wan and Yoda are psychopaths meme.
IMO it's as good a resolution as we're going to get given the assumption that they fight at all.
Hogwash. There's a thousand ways to write a fight in such a way that both characters end up reading a draw as a win/getting what they wanted out of it. That just takes more effort than anyone bothered to put into this ending after writing themselves into a corner they were too lazy to write themselves out of. You could have easily ended the fight with the rock burying and Obi-Wan survive and go to save Luke right after cause disturbance in the force. Both characters would feel like they'd gotten what they wanted. Vader would feel like he won (becoming the master) and Obi-Wan would get away. Instead, Obi-Wan has Anakin on his knees, can end Vader forever, and just walks off with no explanation given except he obviously can't kill Vader. Hell they could have ended the fight in a draw with both Vader and Obi-Wan feeling defeated but neither able to keep fighting.
Lots of ways to do it. What we got makes zero sense.
That would have felt like such an awkward Because Plot Said So moment.
... Really? I don't even disagree with you. I agree it's 'because the plot said so' but at least there the plot actually says so. What we got was 'because the plot.' They didn't even bother with the says so, let alone a confrontation that ends in a way that makes sense.
The last time Obi-Wan left Anakin alive he had a good reason to think he'd die anyway. Here he just says kay bye and walks off and he has no reason to think Leia is safe. We the audience know what happens but he has zero reason to think that whatsoever.
This was explained. The boss inquisitor explicitly calls Reva an idiot for going after a senator's kid and only goes along with the plan because the damage is already done.
I'm the one who pointed that out earlier, except ep 5 reveals the GI wanted Reva to go after Obi-Wan all along cause it was the plan and ep 6 makes it look like he cares more about the rebels than Obi-Wan so why not pursue Leia from that angle? It would have taken all of 30 seconds to establish a reason why this didn't happen. Instead it's just 'shrugs' the senate I guess.
I want an ickLeia show. Stat. In a show of objectively competent acting she seriously stands out as something special. Looking the part is easy. But effortlessly convincing everyone you are a younger version of a beloved, iconic character is phenomenal. Mannerisms? Got ‘em. Attitude? Yup. Motivations? Oh yes. She even convinced as a chip off her parent’s old block. All four of them, counting her adoptive parents.
My favourite moments are her “no, screw you, I am doing that”, folk knowing better than to get in her way (and not because she’s a spoiled brat), yet also her still being Just A Kiddo.
And hey. They’ve got nine years of “we know she got home safe, then turns up on Tantive IV” to drop a story in to.
Literally the only downside to this plan is Weird Creepy Men On The Internet going a bit Millie Bobby Brown for her. Because let’s face it that is going to happen because We Can’t Just Have Nice Tnings.
Unlike the Falcon, this freighter clearly is an exceptionally well constructed piece of junk.
One thing I think would have worked a lot better in a film is recognizing that the whole traveling group exists to evade Imperial capture. I feel like that element gets lost in the 3 episodes where we hang out with this Path, but in a movie it would have had to be more focused.
He seemed to have no problem trying to get Luke to kill him later and why did he even bother facing Vader if he wasn't going to finish it? Why pursue him after being given a get away card?
It's nonsense. Maybe they're just trying to canonize the Obi-Wan and Yoda are psychopaths meme.
Yeah, there's basically zero defending this one. It doesn't make sense in any context. I was waiting for some neutral solution but they just had.... nothing.
Cool fight though. Enjoyed it on the whole.
The bit that bothered me most was honestly Luke being attacked by Reva. I went back and watched it though, and honestly I think it comes down to a moment of bad editing. The actual shots are framed in such a way that Luke never sees the Lightsaber. He's supposed to have escaped before he sees it in the house and she doesn't ignite it again until after he's knocked unconscious. He just sees a cloaked figure in the dark attacking, which is totally believable to be a Tusken.
The problem is there's ONE shot where they cut it too quick and it seems pretty impossible for him to have not seen the saber inside the hut. Just a little sloppy and wouldn't have taken much to edit correctly.
I would have preferred something unexpected/hinted earlier might happen to interfere the fight before kenobi can finish it. Somebody intervene/scenery breaks up due to fight forcing separation/something so that kenobi clearly won(fitting anh) but overall enjoyable fight. When they first mentioned rematch was fearing worse.
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LordofHats wrote: . Vader would feel like he won (becoming the master) and Obi-Wan would get away.
Sure. If you want to break anh...
Vader couldn't feel like a master. Remember vader said last time they met obi wan was the master.
There were still ways to resolve but it needs to end so obi wan was the winner and vader knew it.
There was no need to introduce contradiction to what has been told just for sake of it nor was there need to have obi wan just...leave.
LordofHats wrote: He seemed to have no problem trying to get Luke to kill him later and why did he even bother facing Vader if he wasn't going to finish it? Why pursue him after being given a get away card?
He tried to get Luke to do it after a decade of sitting alone in the desert thinking about his mistakes. Is it really that hard to understand how he could have an emotional crisis in the moment but get over it with time?
And I'm sure he intended to finish it. That lightsaber blow to Vader's head was probably intended to be lethal. But there's a huge difference between killing someone in a fight to the death and killing your old friend as he lies helpless on the ground. That's why you see him move to finish off Vader, hesitate, and fail to overcome his feelings. And it's just like how Reva arrives on Tatooine fully intending to kill Luke but can't finish it once the moment comes.
Vader would feel like he won (becoming the master)
Again, Vader can't win this fight. Vader says very clearly in ANH that Obi Wan was the master last time they met, meaning Obi Wan won their last encounter. Vader indisputably must lose this fight and know he lost, and that was determined the moment they decided to have an actual confrontation in the show instead of a futile chase.
I'm the one who pointed that out earlier, except ep 5 reveals the GI wanted Reva to go after Obi-Wan all along cause it was the plan
I don't think it was a specific plan involving Reva, just a general "let her be angry and give me an opening". If nothing else he certainly didn't come up with a plan that involved hoping the near-fatal lightsaber wound wouldn't be just a bit more lethal. "Go after Obi Wan" is still compatible with "don't be an idiot and kidnap a senator's kid", and it's reasonable to expect him to avoid repeating the plan without Reva around to take all the blame.
and ep 6 makes it look like he cares more about the rebels than Obi-Wan so why not pursue Leia from that angle?
Because Leia isn't a rebel. He wants the potential jedi and the people helping them escape, not the random kid who is just along for the ride. And if he wants them more than Obi Wan he certainly isn't going to be screwing around chasing a random kid whose sole relevance is possibly being bait for Obi Wan.
I can see Obi not wanting to execute the wounded Darth as he sits on the ground due to emotional reasons, but I do object to saying he was helpless. Vader has been in similar states before and still killed people. When you’ve got emotion and willpower powered telekinesis it takes a lot more than that to be helpless and approaching him would still be quite dangerous.
Maybe. But obi wan isn't coward and he has beaten vader twlce. I doubt he would hold back because vader might be dangerous to appoach. Attacking intact vader was even more dangerous.
The "can't get himself kill vader in cold blood once he's on ground" i can live with. Not how i would have prefered it to end but beats "he might still be dangerous".
Throughout the series Kenobi is trying to get some sort of closure with Anakin, and refers to him as Anakin all the way up until their final moment. Closure in this case would be killing Anakin, if he must, but Vader's confession that Anakin is dead because he killed him, ends that for Kenobi.
Kenobi's fight was always with Anakin but, if Anakin is dead the fight is over - but actually Vader has won.
So Kenobi walks away, recognising Darth Vader for the first time, which is why from then on he refers to him as Darth.
CadianSgtBob wrote: Again, Vader can't win this fight. Vader says very clearly in ANH that Obi Wan was the master last time they met, meaning Obi Wan won their last encounter. Vader indisputably must lose this fight and know he lost, and that was determined the moment they decided to have an actual confrontation in the show instead of a futile chase.
Time for a good, old fashioned well actually:
"When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master."
Phrased as it is this fits neither this show nor the fight on Mustafar. Both times Obi Wan was the one that left, not Vader. It's a far better fit for leaving the Jedi (and Obi Wan as his master if you prefer to look at it as a personal thing) for apprenticeship with the Sith/Palpi.
There is no need for Obi Wan to win the last fight, much less curb stomp Vader. The way it's phrased Vader cannot possibly refer to their last fight (unless they have another one in the future) and therefore the master part could easily be understood as a reminder that he's no longer the Padawan in need of guidance, which would be more fittingly underlined by getting closer to beating Obi Wan the last time than getting his face wrecked.
Personally I think the writing for this fight misses the point completely. But that's par for the course for this show, I guess.
Throughout the series Kenobi is trying to get some sort of closure with Anakin, and refers to him as Anakin all the way up until their final moment. Closure in this case would be killing Anakin, if he must, but Vader's confession that Anakin is dead because he killed him, ends that for Kenobi.
Kenobi's fight was always with Anakin but, if Anakin is dead the fight is over - but actually Vader has won.
So Kenobi walks away, recognising Darth Vader for the first time, which is why from then on he refers to him as Darth.
It also plays nicely into “no. I must face him alone”. Kenobi knew it wouldn’t be enough to just knacker the tractor beam. He needed to keep Vader off balance and focussed on him and him alone. Not just so the Princess could get away with the plans, but to prevent Vader capturing our heroes, and potentially learning two of them are his kids.
Throughout the series Kenobi is trying to get some sort of closure with Anakin, and refers to him as Anakin all the way up until their final moment. Closure in this case would be killing Anakin, if he must, but Vader's confession that Anakin is dead because he killed him, ends that for Kenobi.
Kenobi's fight was always with Anakin but, if Anakin is dead the fight is over - but actually Vader has won.
So Kenobi walks away, recognising Darth Vader for the first time, which is why from then on he refers to him as Darth.
Also worth noting that when Vader says Obi-Wan can't Anakin, because Vader already has, it feeds into the line in ANH when Obi-Wan tells Luke that Vader killed his father. That realisation seems to be the thing that finally persuades Obi-Wan he doesn't have to atone for anything any more. He's spent all this time first thinking he killed Anakin, then realising he isn't dead so he needs to finish the job, only to find out Anakin is dead after all.
Doesn't make the fact he leaves Vader alive any less frustrating, of course.
People have a bizarrely narrow fixation on a rather vague line that can be interpreted in a lot of ways, none of which actually address the core criticism that the ending of the fight makes no sense. There's zero reason for Obi-Wan to have walked off except that he can't kill Vader because Vader is alive later and the plot doesn't bother at all to explain why he walked off. He does it for no reason after all but dealing the finishing blow.
CadianSgtBob wrote:He tried to get Luke to do it after a decade of sitting alone in the desert thinking about his mistakes. Is it really that hard to understand how he could have an emotional crisis in the moment but get over it with time?
Nope, but they didn't give us that. We got 'bye' and he walks off.
And I'm sure he intended to finish it.
Clearly he did. After being buried in rock he could have just bided his time, let Vader leave, and then slip off. Instead he pursued, clearly intending to finish what started on Mustafar. Then he just doesn't. For no reason. It would have been easy enough to just make the fight end in a draw that forced Obi to retreat and Vader to do some "I must become the master' bit, but no.
I don't think it was a specific plan involving Reva, just a general "let her be angry and give me an opening".
Ep. 5 would seem to contradict this interpretation but then again who knows? The writers clearly stopped trying at a point or the collection of scenes intended for the movie were kept as is and no one bothered to reframe their context so they'd make more sense.
Because Leia isn't a rebel.
They might think that, but they'd also think she was with some rebels not that long ago and might want to find some revels and that Leia might have information on where they last were.
Nevermind that Obi-Wan and Bail have no reason to know Palpatine called Vader off. They have no reason to even think that. They spend most of the series terrified Vader will learn about Luke and Leia and they never deal with that. They literally just walk off like 'alls well that ends well.' This is what I mean when I say lazy writers don't bother trying to think like their characters. Obi-Wan is all about protecting Luke and Leia. Why, when the biggest threat to them is defeated and on his knees, would he not protect them? All the resolution the show gives us for why they remain safe after these events are completely out of context to Bail and Obi-Wan. They have no way of knowing that stuff would happen and they never bother to explain to themselves, each other, or the audience, how Leia is now safe.
It's just 'alls well that ends well roll credits.'
The thing with Luke gets a bit weird with ANH. He gets dad's lightsaber and it's a new thing, not "oh hey I remember that creepy woman tried to kill me with one of these!". And Owen gets his ass kicked by an evil jedi but still wants to send away the only guy who might be able to stop Luke from getting chopped into tiny pieces next time one shows up?
Luke never sees Reva's lightsaber. When she enters the room in the farm, he's already halfway out the roof hatch and never looks back, and once she's chasing him in the desert it's stowed, and he's unconscious for the last bit. She's just a robed stranger in the dark who he's been told prior is a Tusken.
As for Owen... The one time Obi-Wan's protection but have been useful, he wasn't there. So he's likely not thinking it's any great loss.
That was a fun finale, and did a reasonable job of tying up loose ends and plugging wobbly continuity created by the original movies being made up as they went along. Here's hoping Season 2 goes ahead.
Clearly he did. After being buried in rock he could have just bided his time, let Vader leave, and then slip off. Instead he pursued, clearly intending to finish what started on Mustafar. Then he just doesn't. For no reason.
Ben visibly chokes up and deflates when Vader looks up and he sees Anakin's face looking at him. Felt like a pretty big reason, to me.
Clearly he did. After being buried in rock he could have just bided his time, let Vader leave, and then slip off. Instead he pursued, clearly intending to finish what started on Mustafar. Then he just doesn't. For no reason.
Ben visibly chokes up and deflates when Vader looks up and he sees Anakin's face looking at him. Felt like a pretty big reason, to me.
I once again come out of this discussion with the impression that Kenobi is an utter monster, either incapable of mercy or just plain unwilling to give it. He wants his former 'brother' tormented endlessly in a painful half-existence, and finally twist the knife from beyond the grave with a bit of planned patricide at the end. He just refuses the kind ending at every opportunity, and would prefer to sacrifice pawns (like Reva) for another emotional stroke rather than coordinate an end to Vader's continuing rampage on the galaxy.
In retrospect of Kenobi and Boba Fett, compared to The Mandolorian and the MCU tv shows.
I think we’re seeing clear examples of a film plot and script reworked for television (the two former) and something written specifically for tv.
They are different platforms, and each requires different things. And when one is written for the former, then adapted and serialised for the latter, it shows.
I suspect someone which actual competence in such things could do a strategic trimming of Boba and Kenobi, to make each into say, a two hour movie and get pretty decent results.
Whereas Mando and the MCU shows you couldn’t, because they’re more carefully structured for serialised, episodic story telling.
The proof of the pudding SW wise will of course be Andor. So far as I know, unlike Boba and Kenobi, it was always conceived as a tv show, just as Mando was? And so it’s scripts and plots will have been designed to provide interesting stopping and pick up points across its run.
D+ in particular brought a new freedom for episodic storytelling where if one episode only needs 25 minutes to tell it’s tale, but another needs 50 minutes? They can absolutely do that. Because none of it needs to be hammered around broadcasting time slots and advertising.
"When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master."
Phrased as it is this fits neither this show nor the fight on Mustafar. Both times Obi Wan was the one that left, not Vader. It's a far better fit for leaving the Jedi (and Obi Wan as his master if you prefer to look at it as a personal thing) for apprenticeship with the Sith/Palpi.
There is no need for Obi Wan to win the last fight, much less curb stomp Vader. The way it's phrased Vader cannot possibly refer to their last fight (unless they have another one in the future) and therefore the master part could easily be understood as a reminder that he's no longer the Padawan in need of guidance, which would be more fittingly underlined by getting closer to beating Obi Wan the last time than getting his face wrecked.
Personally I think the writing for this fight misses the point completely. But that's par for the course for this show, I guess.
It would have been fantastic for a big punch up (metaphorically) to have taken place, but a damaged and wheezing Vadar to have overcome the weaknesses highlighted previously and beaten Obi Wan. A measure of peace (given he is quite laid back in the first film) and a throwaway line of 'goodbye master' or somesuch, leaving Ben broken and beaten would have fitted better with Vadar becoming a commanding presence, Obi Wan hiding in the desert until sought out. It would also have shown the Empire not just winning, which logically it must have a few times, but actually dominating, which Disney can't bring itself to show. If it wants to do interwar films it will at some point have to bite the bullet of showing why the Empire is calling the shots or give up on being anything more than a fantasy for kids.
Little Leia is finally old enough to start her political career and is sent on her first ambassadorial assignment to Obadiah. Bail tries to appeal to the senate committee in charge that sending a twelve year old to spice central is not a good idea, and almost succeeds if it wasn't for Leia insisting that nothing could possibly go wrong as Disney princesses don't do drugs. Thus convinced, Bail gets behind the committee's decision and Leia is off on an exciting political adventure.
Meanwhile the Pykes lay the foundation of their long term plan to take over Tatooine from the Hutts by running a choo choo train from A to C via B, where B just so happens to be the Lars farm. Owen of course is not thrilled to find syndicate enforcers asking him very politely to hand over the deed for his farm, but he knows he can rely on Obi Wan to protect them. Obi Wan is there the next time the Pykes show up, waves his hand all weird like and tells them to shove off, and to everyone's surprise, they shove off. But of course that is not a permanent solution, so Obi Wan has to go to Obadiah to somehow alter the syndicate's plans.
Arriving undercover as a merchant looking to buy spice, Obi Wan is surprised to see Leia at a social gathering and only just so manages to stop her from blowing his cover. But as discreet as they are, their familiarity does not go unnoticed by the Pykes and may prove to be Obi Wan's undoing in the end! But for now, he is in the right place to infiltrate the Pykes' planning office and manipulate their documents to run their train through D rather than B. It's a subtle shift that should go unnoticed and save the farm.
Of course the Pykes on Tatooine come back with empty hands after they shoved off in accordance with their own free will and through no outside suggestion at all, and report that for reasons the plan as it stands cannot be put into action. Boss Pyke pulls out his plan and asks them to elaborate after sending the groups leader to a dungeon cell for incompetence, and finds that there is a discrepancy between the plan and his enforcers' report. Checking security footage from the gathering, it seems that the merchant that his underlings identify as one of the farmers on Tatooine excused himself early, and through the wrong door to boot, only to appear again later and act as if nothing had happened. Wanting a word with him, Boss Pyke sends his enforcers to apprehend Obi Wan, but Obi Wan would rather avoid capture and escapes. He returns to Tatooine and all could be well, if only Boss Pyke hadn't connected him to the new ambassador!
Just when Obi Wan takes his leave after telling Owen that everything is sorted out, a messenger droid appears and delivers a sinister threat from Boss Pyke. He has Leia! Who is she to Obi Wan? Who knows? But if she gets Boss Pyke that conversation with Obi Wan, who cares? He is to come within a reasonable time frame, of course alone and unarmed. Obi Wan uses the Force to sense imminent treachery and prefers to come up with a different plan. A bold one, too. The Empire cannot allow criminals to abduct a senator's daughter. That is outrageous and a privilege reserved to Imperials! So Obi Wan does the one thing no one expects. He goes looking for Reva for her obligatory appearance in Obi Wan Kenobi season 2 and asks her for help. She immediately know what to do, dusts off her Inquisitor uniform and drags him out to a remote garrison on the slow side of the Outer Rim. She assembles an Imperial strike force after Force choking an officer who wants to see her orders, and they arrive in orbit over Obadiah soon after. While she invites herself to Boss Pyke's office using lots of big words and demands to inspect their operation, Obi Wan slips into the dungeon unnoticed to find Leia. He gets her out, but a Pyke patrol notices them and sounds the alarm. Cliffhanger time.
In spite of the lack of surplus coats at the Pyke's, Obi Wan and Leia make it pretty far before a large force of enforcers corners them. Obi Wan knows he can't fight his way out without endangering Leia, so he waits for the situation to resolve itself. Because wouldn't you know it, while Reva is getting her tour, there's an alarm. Boss Pyke of course assured her there's nothing to worry about and it's probably just one of those unscheduled security drills that are supposed to keep everyone on their toes, but Reva's like yeah, well, choke on this! After Boss Pyke is out of the picture and she taps into Pyke communication, Reva leads her strike force to find and rescue Obi Wan and Leia. They arrive just when things start getting hairy and in an unseen display of competence, the Stormtroopers that unexpectedly find themselves on the right side of history simply massacre those evil drug pushing enforcers. Just when it looks like they can get back on their dropship, plentiful Pykes pour in and surround them. Because who knew, Boss Pyke had a boss of his own. But Pykes are businessmen, so Reva is allowed to explain herself. She pulls out a hologram with Boss Pyke's confession that he abducted a senator's daughter. She tells him that Boss Pyke has paid for his crime with his life and that it would be unfortunate if it was revealed that this was not a crime committed by a rogue individual, and Boss Pyke's boss gets the hint and lets them go back to the safety of their ship. Then wrap up, goodbyes and happy ends all around!
Yes, all that just to explain why Obi Wan thinks Stormtroopers are crack shots.
The best excuse I can offer is that killing Vader doesn't really accomplish anything. He's a pawn, a very very dangerous pawn that it actively killing innocent people across the galaxy, but still a pawn that will be replaced as soon as he falls. If the goal is to train Luke to take on Palpatine, removing Vader overall makes that harder to engineer. I mean, its a pretty dubious "plan" no matter how much "the Force Whils it" you want to lean on.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: In retrospect of Kenobi and Boba Fett, compared to The Mandolorian and the MCU tv shows.
I think we’re seeing clear examples of a film plot and script reworked for television (the two former) and something written specifically for tv.
They are different platforms, and each requires different things. And when one is written for the former, then adapted and serialised for the latter, it shows.
I suspect someone which actual competence in such things could do a strategic trimming of Boba and Kenobi, to make each into say, a two hour movie and get pretty decent results.
Whereas Mando and the MCU shows you couldn’t, because they’re more carefully structured for serialised, episodic story telling.
The proof of the pudding SW wise will of course be Andor. So far as I know, unlike Boba and Kenobi, it was always conceived as a tv show, just as Mando was? And so it’s scripts and plots will have been designed to provide interesting stopping and pick up points across its run.
D+ in particular brought a new freedom for episodic storytelling where if one episode only needs 25 minutes to tell it’s tale, but another needs 50 minutes? They can absolutely do that. Because none of it needs to be hammered around broadcasting time slots and advertising.
I'm not sure it's the runtime. When it comes down to it, once you remove the credits and story so far intros, you're looking a three and a half hours for all six episodes. Granted, the Marvel movies have been able to tell good stories in two hours, so maybe that's the sweet spot you'd like to hit, but then I'm thinking of the Lord of the Rings and those had extended editions which I found to universally improve on the theatrical versions while upping runtime to three and a half hours. If the material is there, if the writers and director are good at their jobs, you can fill that time meaningfully and not make it seem like a drag.
You could easily make a briefer version of Obi Wan, but I'm not sure if anything that's there is just useless padding. For all I criticize the execution and some of the underlying ideas, I don't think I've seen anything that doesn't add something of interest.
"When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master."
Phrased as it is this fits neither this show nor the fight on Mustafar. Both times Obi Wan was the one that left, not Vader. It's a far better fit for leaving the Jedi (and Obi Wan as his master if you prefer to look at it as a personal thing) for apprenticeship with the Sith/Palpi.
There is no need for Obi Wan to win the last fight, much less curb stomp Vader. The way it's phrased Vader cannot possibly refer to their last fight (unless they have another one in the future) and therefore the master part could easily be understood as a reminder that he's no longer the Padawan in need of guidance, which would be more fittingly underlined by getting closer to beating Obi Wan the last time than getting his face wrecked.
Personally I think the writing for this fight misses the point completely. But that's par for the course for this show, I guess.
It would have been fantastic for a big punch up (metaphorically) to have taken place, but a damaged and wheezing Vadar to have overcome the weaknesses highlighted previously and beaten Obi Wan. A measure of peace (given he is quite laid back in the first film) and a throwaway line of 'goodbye master' or somesuch, leaving Ben broken and beaten would have fitted better with Vadar becoming a commanding presence, Obi Wan hiding in the desert until sought out. It would also have shown the Empire not just winning, which logically it must have a few times, but actually dominating, which Disney can't bring itself to show. If it wants to do interwar films it will at some point have to bite the bullet of showing why the Empire is calling the shots or give up on being anything more than a fantasy for kids.
I can excuse a lot so long as it's fun, but showing the Empire even at the height of its power as useless is a pretty big problem. What's the point if the "big heroes" don't have credible challenges to overcome?
I'm not even sure I can write a lot about that. It's such a simple concept. Would anyone who's into heist movies watch a movie in which the bank robbers put on a fake mustache, walk right past the lone security guard who can't be bothered to take his face out of the newspaper for a single look, go into the unlocked vault to fill up their bags and walk out again unchallenged?
When it comes down to it that's the Empire in Obi Wan (and not just there, unfortunately).
Will there be a Kenobi S2? Officially nothing is announced.
But…..
Spoiler:
with Qui Gonn suddenly showing his spectral arse in the closing moments? I think there’s at least a Special left in the tank.
And I’m here for it. Imagine it as a Two Man stage play type script, with SFX style flashbacks to make it a bit showier for the casual viewer. Ruminations on The Force, and where The Jedi went wrong
tneva82 wrote: Maybe. But obi wan isn't coward and he has beaten vader twlce. I doubt he would hold back because vader might be dangerous to appoach. Attacking intact vader was even more dangerous.
The "can't get himself kill vader in cold blood once he's on ground" i can live with. Not how i would have prefered it to end but beats "he might still be dangerous".
In my opinion we, the public, have basically been prepped and "indoctrinated" by almost all media to see two combatants in conflict with one another who desire to and fight one another to want to kill one another. That's how the conflict is supposed to be resolved. We see the fight between the two character as the "end of the conflict". In the case of Obi-Wan and Vader though, while both detest one another, both desire to fight one another and defeat each other, neither actually want to kill one another which clashes with the standard action drama where the fight between the good and bad guy is resolved by the death of the bad guy in some way.
It's made quite clear in the show that Obi-Wan sees Vader with a mix pity, regret at is own failure and anger at what he is doing and what he became. He doesn't want to kill him, so much as he wants him to face his mistake and come back; something that Vader did mentioned that he tried to do to Luke later on. That's why Obi-Wan can't bring himself to kill Vader at the end of their last fight (to be fair, he might also have been too exhausted and disturbed by seeing Anakin's face and hearing his voice to do it; Jedi draw their strength from a calm mind after all). Vader is ironically in a similar situation. He doesn't want to kill Obi-Wan so much so as he wants to beat him and make him suffer. His obsession isn't the death of Obi-Wan, it's victory over him. That's why he didn't kill him in episode 3 where he could have done so easily; he wanted to defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi not the shadow of his former master so he just toyed with him like an angry cat. That's also why he didn't kill him in episode 6. He almost certainly knew Obi-Wan wasn't dead under all that rock. He can sense his presence. He just left him there "to die" just like he was left behind to die. Ironically though, Vader is probably unaware of it fully himself and is in self denial; one of the most defining trait of Vader's character is his constant denial of his true feelings. The Emperor underlines it at the end of the series. He knows that Vader still can't kill his master and deep down, might still love him and if they keep crossing each other's paths, it might actually end in Vader turning against him hence why he basically orders him to let it go.
The series end with basically both Obi-Wan and Vader hardening one another against each other. Obi-Wan, as time pass, learns to dissociate more and more Vader from Anakin and lose more and more compassion and guilt towards him while Vader discard his desire for vengeance and victory and starts to regard Obi-Wan as a nuisance more than a nemesis and a friend.
tneva82 wrote: Maybe. But obi wan isn't coward and he has beaten vader twlce. I doubt he would hold back because vader might be dangerous to appoach. Attacking intact vader was even more dangerous.
The "can't get himself kill vader in cold blood once he's on ground" i can live with. Not how i would have prefered it to end but beats "he might still be dangerous".
In my opinion we, the public, have basically been prepped and "indoctrinated" by almost all media to see two combatants in conflict with one another who desire to and fight one another to want to kill one another. That's how the conflict is supposed to be resolved. We see the fight between the two character as the "end of the conflict". In the case of Obi-Wan and Vader though, while both detest one another, both desire to fight one another and defeat each other, neither actually want to kill one another which clashes with the standard action drama where the fight between the good and bad guy is resolved by the death of the bad guy in some way.
I'm going to disagree with all that. Partly because my preferred genre is animation, where 'death of the bad guy' is almost never the desired or actual result, and even in live shows (like older star treks) its actively rejected.
In good shows, fights between characters tend to be resulting from or side effects of the real conflict, but never the end of it.
'Face off fight to the death' is bad action movie/antique westerns kind of thinking.
Okay you've made some great points. Salute to Lord of Hats
Reva is not a mary sue but in the end it seems like no one here liked her writing. No matter the actress who played the role they just wrote her overall arc shoddily. I get the vibe they didnt give it a second look over and assumed it would work.
I will say I loved the last two episodes (5 and 6). I think I just didn't like her scenes in the earlier episodes
Stevefamine wrote: Okay you've made some great points. Salute to Lord of Hats
Reva is not a mary sue but in the end it seems like no one here liked her writing. No matter the actress who played the role they just wrote her overall arc shoddily. I get the vibe they didnt give it a second look over and assumed it would work.
I will say I loved the last two episodes (5 and 6). I think I just didn't like her scenes in the earlier episodes
I’d like to argue her being kind of pathetic, yet ambitious is itself a solid character.
We know she was one of very few Younglings to survive Vader’s purge of the temple. Whilst we don’t exactly why or how she was spared? We see the other Inquisitors constantly dumping on her. You’re the least of us, is a specific quote. We then see her ambition outstrip her ability, and lead to her downfall, but also redemption.
That is a character unto itself. Granted one we don’t often see, let alone in Star Wars. But it’s certainly a challenging and dare I say authentic character for us to wrap our heads around.
Its not that rare. The abuse victim that grows to become their abusers and tries to escape the cycle of abuse is an established thing. And can be really well done- Catra from the She-ra reboot, for example
I'm just not sure the writers are aware that is the character they created, and instead opted for REVENGE! as a More Manic Inigo Montoya or bafflingly tried to play straight with 'Shorty-Greasy Spot-Spot' from Black Adder II.
There are definitely shades of Asajj Ventriss, who was a character of amazing potential killed off for the mangst of no-mark “I’m sorry, who?” barely used character Quinlan “so….just another slightly naughty Jedi then” Vos.
Me? Bitter and angry that an interesting character ended up as mangst?
Well, the black adder reference is mostly a joke. Her being one note revenge rather than a nuanced character? Not so much.
There are definitely shades of Asajj Ventriss, who was a character of amazing potential killed off for the mangst of no-mark “I’m sorry, who?” barely used character Quinlan “so….just another slightly naughty Jedi then” Vos.
Me? Bitter and angry that an interesting character ended up as mangst?
Not me, guv. Honest guv.
Am I going to regret doing a search for 'mangst' or do you just mean angst? I'm never sure with your over-use of regional slang.
Mangst is something specific. A lazy literary trope where any female character is killed off to provide a male character with motivation.
Hence I’m so pissed off that was Asajj’s fate. That character could’ve been a very interesting lens to consider Grey Force Users, one’s neither Sith nor Jedi, but somewhere in between.
Sadly? Nah. Kill her off. Give this comparative no mark a reason for reasons.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Mangst is something specific. A lazy literary trope where any female character is killed off to provide a male character with motivation.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Mangst is something specific. A lazy literary trope where any female character is killed off to provide a male character with motivation.
Hence I’m so pissed off that was Asajj’s fate. That character could’ve been a very interesting lens to consider Grey Force Users, one’s neither Sith nor Jedi, but somewhere in between.
Sadly? Nah. Kill her off. Give this comparative no mark a reason for reasons.
I believe the more commonly known term for what you're referring to is "fridging".
Do agree that it was really weird that they got rid of her off-screen in the comics versus having her having a more central role once she got ditched by Dooku. Reva definitely lacks both her backstory and development, and I'd find any attempts for them to push her to be a neutral "Grey Jedi" equivalent pretty forced unless they took a few seasons to develop that which is highly unlikely.
I ended up liking Reva in the end, though its pretty clear her arc is feature film length. Overall, I ended up liking the character, but it felt like the pacing of her story wasn't very smooth to accommodate the episodic structure.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Could be compassion. Could be Jedi don’t murder. Jedi aren’t there to kill.
Hence the part of the genius of Palpatine’s plan was to set them against Droid armies for the most part.
Maybe but surely killing him there and then saves a lot of the remaining Jedi and Force Sensitives in hiding (and mundanes helping them), as its only him and Ahsoka that would stand any kind of non fatal interaction with Vader as he's the end game if the Inquisitors are bested by nearly trained Jedi like Kanan or the like, it would most likely break Obi but take half the properly trained Force users off the baddies side of the board, the Inquisitors appear to be trained to the bear minimum like a lot of the Empires ideas (although thinking more and more Palp is like some crazed chaos god or the factions from 1984, he has no intention of "winning" just creating constant misery and big brain I told you so moments)
Palpatine would have found a new apprentice, and the cycle would begin again. Hell, he could even put the apprentice in the same suit and keep calling him Vader. The new apprentice might not be as powerful but Palpatine already had two others so a fourth isn't out of the question. And IIRC, the Inquisitors are taught enough to be competent Dark Side users, not to the level of the likes of Maul and Dooku or even someone like Ventriss or Savage. But they can always be trained more and with a group already there, the Emperor could pit them against each other to find his new apprentice ensuring only the strongest came out alive.
One of the more compelling reasons I've seen for his decision to sacrifice himself instead of fighting in ANH is that because of his connection to Anakin, he can't kill Vader without succumbing to dark side influences.
Retrospectively we can also include knowledge of what he'll be able to do once he becomes a force ghost as well.
If he kills Vader out of any sort of rage or fear, he betrays the Jedi principles, and that makes an already complicated emotional situation even messier.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Could be compassion. Could be Jedi don’t murder. Jedi aren’t there to kill.
There are piles of dismembered body parts from dead people from various movies, books, shows and games that make me go... what?
Luke went through Jabba's flunkies like a Cuisinart. Blowing up the death star would be an utterly deplorable dark side act of mass murder.
Hence the part of the genius of Palpatine’s plan was to set them against Droid armies for the most part.
No... that's dumb. If your initial premise were actually true, trying to corrupt them/destroy them by forcing them to kill would be a _much_ better plan.
insaniak wrote: Luke never sees Reva's lightsaber. When she enters the room in the farm, he's already halfway out the roof hatch and never looks back, and once she's chasing him in the desert it's stowed, and he's unconscious for the last bit. She's just a robed stranger in the dark who he's been told prior is a Tusken.
Watched it again and you might be right, based on the timing I feel like Luke should have seen her with the lightsaber active coming through the door but on screen you never see him looking back.
As for Owen... The one time Obi-Wan's protection but have been useful, he wasn't there. So he's likely not thinking it's any great loss.
He wasn't there, but Owen had just told him to GTFO and stay away from Luke. I guess you can argue that Owen being a stubborn ass is part of his character but it still seems like a pretty poor decision.
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LordofHats wrote: There's zero reason for Obi-Wan to have walked off except that he can't kill Vader because Vader is alive later and the plot doesn't bother at all to explain why he walked off. He does it for no reason after all but dealing the finishing blow.
The plot doesn't need to explicitly explain it, it's all right there in his visible emotions. He goes into the fight intending to kill Vader, he wins the fight, and when Vader is lying defeated on the ground he starts to make the killing blow but can't bring himself to do it. I'm not sure why you think "damn, killing my old best friend while he's sitting there looking so pitiful is harder than I thought" is a plot hole you can't accept?
Nope, but they didn't give us that. We got 'bye' and he walks off.
Maybe you're missing it because it's a "show, don't tell" thing but it was blindingly obvious what was happening. Look at Obi Wan's expression, voice, etc. It's all right there even if Obi Wan doesn't say the words "killing you is too hard".
And I'm sure he intended to finish it.
It would have been easy enough to just make the fight end in a draw that forced Obi to retreat and Vader to do some "I must become the master' bit, but no.
But, again, a draw doesn't fit with ANH. Vader's words are clear: when they last met Vader was the learner, now he is the master. He's very directly saying that he has learned from his defeat and will beat Obi Wan this time. Forcing his old master to retreat would have already proved that Vader is stronger and he'd be saying something more like "dude, I beat you once already, WTF are you thinking coming back here to die".
They might think that, but they'd also think she was with some rebels not that long ago and might want to find some revels and that Leia might have information on where they last were.
She's a ten year old kid. We as the audience know that she's important and becomes a main character later but from an in-universe point of view she's just an annoying kid and any information she might have is likely to be undermined by the fact that annoying kids don't fully understand the world. And once she's gone the rebels are going to be doing their best to cover their tracks, very quickly making any fragments of information Leia might still remember obsolete. That hardly seems worth angering the senate, a senate that even after another decade of the Emperor consolidating his power was still enough of a concern that Tarkin's subordinates were afraid of what the senate might do if they found out about the attack on Leia's thinly-veiled spy mission.
I've managed to finish watching it all the way through. and over all I enjoyed this series. Reva seemed poorly written but I did enjoy her time with Princess Laia in interrogation. I think that was probably the strongest or at least most enjoyable action in the series for Reva.
I didn't feel this show was very good or bad or special until Vader arrived and the spectacle was worth it. I even enjoyed the last big fight in Ep 6. I love it when force users use the force. And the strength of both Vader and Obiwan was nice to see.
I had suspected the larger plan was to keep Reva around as a big bad to cross over with the Mandlorian and have a long run with Grogu but they did something different and that fine, maybe even better. Now that she's in the universe and established I hope they continue to use her character and develop her more.
Was it the best star wars ever, no. Was it good, sure. Was there some bad writing and did it more or less feel like a string of video cut scenes? Mostly, more or less, sometimes.
If we get a Obi Wan season 2, they are going to have to check all the boxes all over again to put everyone back into the same places so that A New Hope can happen again. It's going to be even worse.
I think the question isn't so much whether they should go for a fun random adventure over fate of the galaxy stuff where all the major players show up, but whether they can resist doing the latter.
Lance845 wrote: If we get a Obi Wan season 2, they are going to have to check all the boxes all over again to put everyone back into the same places so that A New Hope can happen again. It's going to be even worse.
Yeah, it also makes his whole point of being in hiding and watching over Luke kinda pointless if he just keeps leaving the planet every other week to go on an adventure smacking Imperials around. And if he stays on Tatooine, what, are we just going to see him fight Sand People and gangsters? I already saw enough of that from book of boba, no more vespa scooter gangs please.
Gangsters? Done, done, done. No Jabba, No Bib, No replacement Hutts, No replacement rivals, no internal up and comers. Its all done.
Saarlac? Blowed up
Krayt dragon? Done that.
Unleash the sand Kraken? Barely filler.
Tuskens? Beat that drum to death and set it on fire.
Even did 'hero' vs Jawas, which was simply embarrassing.
Time to pack up Star Wars street and move to a new biome. Way past time, to be honest.
Really, about the only thing they haven't done is pop the seal on the Old Republic MMO lore and dig up the 'Infinite Empire' ruins under the sands. And wow, they don't need to muddy the waters with that.
Gangsters? Done, done, done. No Jabba, No Bib, No replacement Hutts, No replacement rivals, no internal up and comers. Its all done.
Saarlac? Blowed up
Krayt dragon? Done that.
Unleash the sand Kraken? Barely filler.
Tuskens? Beat that drum to death and set it on fire.
Even did 'hero' vs Jawas, which was simply embarrassing.
Time to pack up Star Wars street and move to a new biome. Way past time, to be honest.
Really, about the only thing they haven't done is pop the seal on the Old Republic MMO lore and dig up the 'Infinite Empire' ruins under the sands. And wow, they don't need to muddy the waters with that.
Legit. I get that having new sets can be expensive, but reusing the same sand type planets and places that are basically "Not-Tatooine" is getting old real fast. Give me closer to something like Felucia, anything that isn't a bland set. I can see why Anakin hated sand lol
insaniak wrote: Luke never sees Reva's lightsaber. When she enters the room in the farm, he's already halfway out the roof hatch and never looks back, and once she's chasing him in the desert it's stowed, and he's unconscious for the last bit. She's just a robed stranger in the dark who he's been told prior is a Tusken.
Watched it again and you might be right, based on the timing I feel like Luke should have seen her with the lightsaber active coming through the door but on screen you never see him looking back.
It's very clear that while shooting they were being very careful not to let Luke see anything other than what he would assume is a Tusken, but yeah, when Beru makes her stand its edited in such a way that it feels like he should have seen her. Kind of a shame, because its very clear that a lot of people put a lot of thought into making sure there was a plausible explanation there, but the audience misses out feeling that way because it gets a little sloppy. It needs like one more shot of Luke cowering, hearing unclear noises and Beru telling him to run and I think it would have come across better.
The random monster the Boba chokes out with his unbreakable chains while hunting for magic water gourds as a Tusken slave for 5 minutes. Its basically the same design as the Kraken from the Harryhausen stop-motion Clash of the Titans movie (1981)
The random monster the Boba chokes out with his unbreakable chains while hunting for magic water gourds as a Tusken slave for 5 minutes. Its basically the same design as the Kraken from the Harryhausen stop-motion Clash of the Titans movie (1981)
Right right, I remember that now. I was just trying to think of a big sand squid and couldn’t recall one.
warboss wrote: I suspect that Reva will instead get her own show after this prequel one.
GREAT! Then we can watch her meet Young Chewie and Han and they call all go have adventures dealing with crime syndicates run by Darth Maul. Welcome to Starwars Street Reva! But of course Reva will have to do all her force stuff when Han isn't looking so that he has plausible deniability for not believing in any of that force mumbo jumbo in A New Hope.
She shouldn't get gak. Get the feth out of this era.
warboss wrote: I suspect that Reva will instead get her own show after this prequel one.
GREAT! Then we can watch her meet Young Chewie and Han and they call all go have adventures dealing with crime syndicates run by Darth Maul. Welcome to Starwars Street Reva! But of course Reva will have to do all her force stuff when Han isn't looking so that he has plausible deniability for not believing in any of that force mumbo jumbo in A New Hope.
She shouldn't get gak. Get the feth out of this era.
Agreed. The Galactic Civil War has been done to death and Disney's incessant need to tie in major existing characters will undermine what there is currently in that era. Completely new characters in a different timeline is really needed as a palette cleanser for all the memberberries they're trying to shove down people's throats.
Then nobody will watch it, complain about x, y or z just being a rip off of a, b or c or moan about why they aren't seeing more stories about [insert favourite character.]
The wins against this fanbase are nearly always pyrrhic at best.
Azreal13 wrote: Then nobody will watch it, complain about x, y or z just being a rip off of a, b or c or moan about why they aren't seeing more stories about [insert favourite character.]
The wins against this fanbase are nearly always pyrrhic at best.
see, for example, all the nerd rage we saw about the new lord of the rings series in production, for daring to have Galadriel wear armour and kicking ass in melee!
I, too was rather upset about it initially, though i have since come to understand that it WAS in character for Galadriel to do that (at least it was mentioned in Tolkien's writings), so i was wrong to think it was some new "woke" bs being made up.
Likewise, i don't think that exploration of time periods of star wars much before or after the existing set will see much success. theirs been a few attempts, but only the fall of the republic/clone wars era really stuck and became accepted. the Old republic has a few popular video games, but really its not anything like as popular. Unfortunatly, its just better business to keep circling around the same popular characters.
I mean, look at all the dislike of the new character they just created?
The new characters they created are all still interacting with and tied to the old characters. They had no room to be their own characters. Get way the hell out of here.
1000 years in the future. Everyone, Grogru included is dead. New characters. Interesting stories. Come up with a good story first. Not decide to make a show about a popular character and then work backwards to squeeze a story out them like some decaying piece of fruit.
Lance845 wrote: The new characters they created are all still interacting with and tied to the old characters. They had no room to be their own characters. Get way the hell out of here.
1000 years in the future. Everyone, Grogru included is dead. New characters. Interesting stories. Come up with a good story first. Not decide to make a show about a popular character and then work backwards to squeeze a story out them like some decaying piece of fruit.
Genuine open question on that.
Is it really a good idea?
The old EU did pre-OT stuff (with harbingers of stuff to come etc), but was otherwise a chronology following on.
If you jumped 1,000 years, and made it unrelated? Is it really Star Wars anymore(
I mean, look at all the dislike of the new character they just created?
Well, it's a terribly written character shoved into one of the most defining and narrow plot lines of the entire saga. There was no way she was going to be well received, which, ironically, Disney even briefed the actress about.
Grimskul wrote: Agreed. The Galactic Civil War has been done to death and Disney's incessant need to tie in major existing characters will undermine what there is currently in that era. Completely new characters in a different timeline is really needed as a palette cleanser for all the memberberries they're trying to shove down people's throats.
New characters are needed. A new era isn't. A new Rogue Squadron series set in the OT era would be awesome. No main characters, no major plot events, just x-wings and TIE fighters dogfighting as god intended.
Lance845 wrote: The new characters they created are all still interacting with and tied to the old characters. They had no room to be their own characters. Get way the hell out of here.
1000 years in the future. Everyone, Grogru included is dead. New characters. Interesting stories. Come up with a good story first. Not decide to make a show about a popular character and then work backwards to squeeze a story out them like some decaying piece of fruit.
Genuine open question on that.
Is it really a good idea?
The old EU did pre-OT stuff (with harbingers of stuff to come etc), but was otherwise a chronology following on.
If you jumped 1,000 years, and made it unrelated? Is it really Star Wars anymore(
The KoToR games are very popular Starwars and they have nothing to do with anything in the OT or Skywalkers or any of that crap.
The question here is, is the universe of Starwars interesting enough to have other interesting stories without the main character small cluster of families? Force, Lightsabers, A entire galaxy of planets and aliens to tell stories with.
So is this franchise "Indiana Jones" or "Die Hard" where the "franchise" is literally about the adventures of a single person? Where jumping to a different person having different adventures in the world would be a weird thing to tell stories with? Or is what makes Star Wars Star Wars the universe it takes place in and there are plenty of opportunities to tell good stories out there?
The Mandolorian I think proves that you could separate and tell interesting narratives within the universe. That show doesn't need it's starwars street cameos to work. And I think they are some of the dullest parts of the show. Just get out there and do new stuff.
Mando works because we get to see the fallout of ROTJ for the Little People, to some extent.
If it was 1,000 years from Endor? I genuinely do not know if I’d have enjoyed it as much, because it’s plots, scripts and setting are so inherently intertwined.
Having never played KotoR or the Old Republic MMO, I'd love to see some Old Republic era stuff. It's a period that never gets touched on in the canon verse and I think there's a comic series coming out soon that IIRC is set during the High Republic era. Going into the past you can show how things got to be a certain way and the origins of things like the Rule of Two. I mean sure we know it was Darth Bane who did it and he did it because the Sith destroyed each other, but I wanna see that and stuff like the Mandolorian Wars.
As for the 1000 years stuff, the stories of Star Wars rely on the period of the Republic and Empire to tie things together. You could tell the story of some future Star Wars people but you would have to make a Jedi character otherwise it's just sci-fi. And if there's a Jedi there's got to be some sort of Sith or Dark Side adepts kicking about and at that point why not just set it during the timespan we already know. I think you could maybe do a short like Visions but a full series set well after everything is dead and gone? That would be much harder to sell.
One of the most popular (even though the second game got its budget slashed and they ran out of cash) RPG games for Starwars was set 1000 years before and that had some really fantastic things including one Sith lord flying around in his own personal undead space ship.
I do see value in taking the story outside of the core timeline period. It releases you from all, or most of the classic characters dominating the narrative. It also means you don't end up messing things up by having so much happen in so little time to so few characters that you can't imagine how things knit together. However I think one thing we've seen to SW's detriment under Disney is that there's no sense of any overarching plot. There's no Tolkien or Pratchett or anyone holding the reins for the lore in itself. That creates a lore ripe for being pulled apart because different teams take different directions and can't all coordinate even if they wanted too.
Even GW, who are pretty hot on controlling their own lore, have issues with that.
Personally I'd love to see them explore time periods outside of the core. Go back and lets see a young Yoda rise to power; or lets go forward.
Of course the other option is going sideways. They've a whole galaxy to play with. In theory they could do LOADS of same timeline stories that never go anywhere close to the core characters. Rebellions on worlds far from the main actities; whole wars can be conducted won and lost.
Gert wrote: Having never played KotoR or the Old Republic MMO, I'd love to see some Old Republic era stuff. It's a period that never gets touched on in the canon verse and I think there's a comic series coming out soon that IIRC is set during the High Republic era. Going into the past you can show how things got to be a certain way and the origins of things like the Rule of Two. I mean sure we know it was Darth Bane who did it and he did it because the Sith destroyed each other, but I wanna see that and stuff like the Mandolorian Wars.
As for the 1000 years stuff, the stories of Star Wars rely on the period of the Republic and Empire to tie things together. You could tell the story of some future Star Wars people but you would have to make a Jedi character otherwise it's just sci-fi. And if there's a Jedi there's got to be some sort of Sith or Dark Side adepts kicking about and at that point why not just set it during the timespan we already know. I think you could maybe do a short like Visions but a full series set well after everything is dead and gone? That would be much harder to sell.
Or, and hear me out here, it could be so far in the future that the dynamic of force users is changed. Yes. There are force users. And yes, there are different styles including "dark side" "light side". But they don't have to be weird religious monks or facists despots. There could just be people with an interesting story and some force users on the team. In fact, how cool could it be to have some smuggler crew or some crap with one of the main characters being a dark side user who taps into his/her emotions in a fight?
The WORLD of Starwars is interesting. You just need good writers to write a good story set in it's universe.
I think forward or back you can go too far and change too much and then its not starwars any more. I think one of the strengths of KotoR was that it wasn't too different. There were still landmarks we knew about - sith and jedi and such. Concepts that allowed them to focus on the story rather than rebuilding the entire world setting.
I think you have ot keep some of that otherwise you're going so far off the track that it is indeed no longer starwars.
I think it's a really terrible idea to start a the tv/movie version of the High Republic at the end of it. We should have a few years of the high republic being the high republic before we see it's fall.
Imagine watching Infinity War as the first marvel movie and then going BACK and showing people iron man 1.
Well, plodding through finale now (this week has been a lot).
Its... well. I'm at the mid-point climax and I'm bored enough to post about it. Because that's a fethload of padding.
'I'm gonna leave and draw them off' 10 minutes later...
Imperials incapable of multitasking simple problems
Kenobi gets superpowers from the love of children he barely knows. Gets bored, goes home.
Lightspeed travel between systems apparently takes zero time again.
Secondary character continues her zero stakes struggle with a trigger that we know for a fact that she isn't going to pull, and had no real reason to go looking for.
Vader calls the Emperor for therapy. Gets over it.
I guess that's one way to get everybody back to their Episode 4 starting marks, but they might as well not have done it at all. (And now Leia knows Kenobi far too well, and knows for a fact that he knows who her biological parents are? Cool. That needed to happen). Though oddly McGregor looks so much younger in this part (blah, blah hope or whatever), but Kenobi will have to age a good 30+ years in the next 10 in-universe years.
Feel bad about whatever happens to that droid in the next ten years, though.
Odd amount of not-quite-right recycled dialogue. Dismissed it the first time, but it happened a couple more times.
Ol' Quaff Down Gin looked out of scale and nothing so much as a tiny leprechaun. Very surreal.
Yeah, so, that did manage to be worse than Book of Bad Boba. I didn't think that was possible, but its such a dull, directionless and pointless story.
Voss wrote: Vader calls the Emperor for therapy. Gets over it.
To be fair, no he doesn't. Palpatine threatens to replace Vader so he drops the issue for now. We know he doesn't let it go because he brings it back up in Rebels. That scene is actually very interesting seeing the difference between Sam Witwer's version and Ian McDiarmid's.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: Or, and hear me out here, it could be so far in the future that the dynamic of force users is changed. Yes. There are force users. And yes, there are different styles including "dark side" "light side". But they don't have to be weird religious monks or facists despots. There could just be people with an interesting story and some force users on the team. In fact, how cool could it be to have some smuggler crew or some crap with one of the main characters being a dark side user who taps into his/her emotions in a fight?
I agree that's a good premise but once again as a short story.
The WORLD of Starwars is interesting. You just need good writers to write a good story set in it's universe.
Again, sort of. People watch Star Wars movies and shows for the big names and places. The Mandolorian was super popular because it was a character from a very popular group in the Star Wars universe. Replace him with a random cowboy bounty hunter and it's not the same, good writer or not. The institutions provide hooks for stories to be told and it's much easier to tell a story with an established base than it is to just make one up.
Voss wrote: Vader calls the Emperor for therapy. Gets over it.
To be fair, no he doesn't. Palpatine threatens to replace Vader so he drops the issue for now. We know he doesn't let it go because he brings it back up in Rebels. That scene is actually very interesting seeing the difference between Sam Witwer's version and Ian McDiarmid's.
Spoiler:
He expresses a vague, mild interest in Kenobi and quietly accepts 'perhaps' as answer and is fine with sending somebody else. In both versions. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, but that wasn't someone who was still worked up about anything.
Not sure why they even bothered to re-dub that, either.
The delivery is different. Witwer's version is more friendly "maybe but I don't want to talk about it" whereas McDiarmid's is dismissive "For god's sake just stop" with regards to Kenobi. It's the difference between someone who is still manipulating Vader with false hope and someone who is trying to get Vader to do his job hunting all the Jedi.
Maybe that's just me but it's still very clear Vader absolutely doesn't drop his hunt for Kenobi at the end of this series. Palpatine is also saying to despatch Inquisitors to hunt down the Spectres and Ahsoka, not Kenobi.
Voss wrote: Vader calls the Emperor for therapy. Gets over it.
To be fair, no he doesn't. Palpatine threatens to replace Vader so he drops the issue for now. We know he doesn't let it go because he brings it back up in Rebels. That scene is actually very interesting seeing the difference between Sam Witwer's version and Ian McDiarmid's.
Spoiler:
This is only an acceptable explanation if 1) Palatine for some reason didn't want or didn't care if Obi Wan was found (and he clearly wants all the Jedi found because he made the damn inquisitors to go do that exact thing with those inquisitors answering to Vader.) and 2) Palatine didn't want to stoke Vader's anger (Which he spent 2 movies and 4 seasons of the clone wars doing non stop to fuel his fall to the dark side and teach him how to harness it as a source of power. So why tell him to calm down now?)
I's actually just out of character for Palpatine to not send Vader and the Inquisitors to pursue Obi Wan.
Gert wrote: The delivery is different. Witwer's version is more friendly "maybe but I don't want to talk about it" whereas McDiarmid's is dismissive "For god's sake just stop" with regards to Kenobi. It's the difference between someone who is still manipulating Vader with false hope and someone who is trying to get Vader to do his job hunting all the Jedi.
Sorry, its the same read to me. McDiarmid gargles more while doing the voice, but the emotion is the same.
Also what Lance said. It makes no sense. Kenobi is (publicly or privately) Bad Jedi #1. And he should also be all sorts of pissed that Vader didn't have that freighter destroyed (which would have been easy), to the point that 'summoned to Coruscant for an electrocution session' is in order, not telling him to chill.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Palpating is also none too keen to let Vader find out his kids are alive…
Palpatine doesn't know that. And he is less likely to find out the less of the people who do know that are alive. AND he was pretty cool with finding out Luke was alive in ESB.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Palpating is also none too keen to let Vader find out his kids are alive…
Was it ever made clear that Palpatine is even aware that Luke and Leia are his kids? If Palpatine knew then he would have already kidnapped Luke under Vader's nose to train him as Vader's replacement. So I really doubt that's anywhere near close a realistic motivation for Palpatine to cock block Vader from pursuing Kenobi.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Palpating is also none too keen to let Vader find out his kids are alive…
Was it ever made clear that Palpatine is even aware that Luke and Leia are his kids? If Palpatine knew then he would have already kidnapped Luke under Vader's nose to train him as Vader's replacement. So I really doubt that's anywhere near close a realistic motivation for Palpatine to cock block Vader from pursuing Kenobi.
I don’t think he knew they were twins (I don’t think even Padmé knew about that?)
It’s an odd one. Anakin’s child isn’t only likely to be strong in the force, but be part of Padmé remaining. Given Vader is surprisingly fragile as a personality? It may be a risk he just didn’t want to take.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Palpating is also none too keen to let Vader find out his kids are alive…
Was it ever made clear that Palpatine is even aware that Luke and Leia are his kids? If Palpatine knew then he would have already kidnapped Luke under Vader's nose to train him as Vader's replacement. So I really doubt that's anywhere near close a realistic motivation for Palpatine to cock block Vader from pursuing Kenobi.
I don’t think he knew they were twins (I don’t think even Padmé knew about that?)
It’s an odd one. Anakin’s child isn’t only likely to be strong in the force, but be part of Padmé remaining. Given Vader is surprisingly fragile as a personality? It may be a risk he just didn’t want to take.
What risk is there? Palpatine was able to clearly demonstrate his superiority over Vader in the canon comic over here:
The chances of Vader going rogue even if he found out is very low, part of the reason why he worked out as an ideal apprentice during the time of the Empire was that he literally didn't have anyone left except his identity as Palpatine's apprentice. His wife and friends were either dead or in exile, and even in the Imperial military, he had no real allies. Tarkin respected him but basically just had a working relationship with him. He certainly made no friends with the officer corps or Moffs that he killed with relative impunity. Palpatine was basically the only reason why he got a free pass on what he did. So worst case scenario, Palpatine would eliminate him or put him in his place.
Palpatine has shown no qualms over replacing old pawns with new ones, (he literally had both Maul and Dooku in quick succession) especially when Luke has no knowledge of his lineage and Vader doesn't have any idea of his children surviving until after a New Hope. He could have easily trained him in secret ala Starkiller until he believed Luke was powerful enough to challenge Vader or if he honestly just felt that Vader had served his purpose and ended him personally.
Going by Comics, Vader goes anti-Palpatine the moment he discovers Luke is his kid. Still works for him and does what he says, but is working/desiring behind his back to recruit Luke to his side and have them replace the old guy.
AduroT wrote: Going by Comics, Vader goes anti-Palpatine the moment he discovers Luke is his kid. Still works for him and does what he says, but is working/desiring behind his back to recruit Luke to his side and have them replace the old guy.
Right, which is par for the course for any Sith master-apprentice relationship anyways, its literally how the rule of 2 works. What my point was is that if Palpatine knew Luke existed as Vaders son, there would be no reason for him not to have taken him for his own rather than leaving him as a potential thing for Vader to find and join forces to usurp him.
AduroT wrote: Going by Comics, Vader goes anti-Palpatine the moment he discovers Luke is his kid. Still works for him and does what he says, but is working/desiring behind his back to recruit Luke to his side and have them replace the old guy.
Right, which is par for the course for any Sith master-apprentice relationship anyways, its literally how the rule of 2 works. What my point was is that if Palpatine knew Luke existed as Vaders son, there would be no reason for him not to have taken him for his own rather than leaving him as a potential thing for Vader to find and join forces to usurp him.
see, i kind of interpret the Vader/Reva fight in this light, specifically the part where he throws her back a lightsaber. sure, it might just be a bit of cathartic angre release for him, but it could also be a bit of "ok, then, lets see if you have what it takes".
AduroT wrote: Going by Comics, Vader goes anti-Palpatine the moment he discovers Luke is his kid. Still works for him and does what he says, but is working/desiring behind his back to recruit Luke to his side and have them replace the old guy.
Which is great. But whats important for the scene in Obi Wan is what would the Emperor do? IF the emperor knew that Vaders kids were out there AND he knew that Wanted Jedi #1 Obi Wan was being tracked by Vader would Palapatine be like "Hey Vader. Why not just chill out man?" or would he be all "Go. Kill him. Do not fail me a second a time."
In the case of Obi Wan. Why wouldn't Palpatine want Obi Wan dead?
In the case of Vaders kids, how did Palpatine respond in the OT?
Again, Palpatine telling Vader to chill out is incredibly out of character. It's just a thing they shoe horned in so that episode 4 can happen.
Lance845 wrote: This is only an acceptable explanation if 1) Palatine for some reason didn't want or didn't care if Obi Wan was found (and he clearly wants all the Jedi found because he made the damn inquisitors to go do that exact thing with those inquisitors answering to Vader.) and 2) Palatine didn't want to stoke Vader's anger (Which he spent 2 movies and 4 seasons of the clone wars doing non stop to fuel his fall to the dark side and teach him how to harness it as a source of power. So why tell him to calm down now?)
I's actually just out of character for Palpatine to not send Vader and the Inquisitors to pursue Obi Wan.
1 - Yeah sure, Palpatine wants all the Jedi hunted down eventually but Vader has a tendency to focus on his old master rather than the many other Jedi out there. Vader is still doing his job hunting down the Jedi but he keeps fixating on one at the expense of others and keeps tasking the Inquisitors to run down leads on Kenobi alone as soon as one pops up.
2 - What happens when Vader catches Kenobi? One of the things that keeps Vader's hatred alive, possibly the greatest thing, is gone, how does Palpatine keep Vader hateful? The man who "betrayed" Vader and turned his wife against him, leading to the death of his child is gone, so who does Vader turn his anger on? How about the master who tortured, degraded, and tried to kill him? TBF that's just a personal theory but it's plausible IMO.
Lance845 wrote: This is only an acceptable explanation if 1) Palatine for some reason didn't want or didn't care if Obi Wan was found (and he clearly wants all the Jedi found because he made the damn inquisitors to go do that exact thing with those inquisitors answering to Vader.) and 2) Palatine didn't want to stoke Vader's anger (Which he spent 2 movies and 4 seasons of the clone wars doing non stop to fuel his fall to the dark side and teach him how to harness it as a source of power. So why tell him to calm down now?)
I's actually just out of character for Palpatine to not send Vader and the Inquisitors to pursue Obi Wan.
1 - Yeah sure, Palpatine wants all the Jedi hunted down eventually but Vader has a tendency to focus on his old master rather than the many other Jedi out there. Vader is still doing his job hunting down the Jedi but he keeps fixating on one at the expense of others and keeps tasking the Inquisitors to run down leads on Kenobi alone as soon as one pops up.
Did... you watch the show? The entire first 2 episodes is about 3rd sister obsessively chasing Obi Wan and the Grand Inquisitor and others, including Vader admonishing her for it up until the point where it actually worked. The only time Vader fixated on Obi Wan was when he was actually in front of him. Letting him escape is ACTUALLY a problem that goes against the entire organization of the inquisitors. There was no point, ever, durring this show where the pursuit of Obi Wan happened at the expense of finding other Jedi.
2 - What happens when Vader catches Kenobi? One of the things that keeps Vader's hatred alive, possibly the greatest thing, is gone, how does Palpatine keep Vader hateful? The man who "betrayed" Vader and turned his wife against him, leading to the death of his child is gone, so who does Vader turn his anger on? How about the master who tortured, degraded, and tried to kill him? TBF that's just a personal theory but it's plausible IMO.
If thats your take away you should go watch Episodes 5 and 6. They both take place after Obi Wan had died and the Emperor doesn't seem too fussed about it.
Lance845 wrote: Did... you watch the show? The entire first 2 episodes is about 3rd sister obsessively chasing Obi Wan and the Grand Inquisitor and others, including Vader admonishing her for it up until the point where it actually worked. The only time Vader fixated on Obi Wan was when he was actually in front of him. Letting him escape is ACTUALLY a problem that goes against the entire organization of the inquisitors. There was no point, ever, durring this show where the pursuit of Obi Wan happened at the expense of finding other Jedi.
And Vader was playing Reva the whole time so none of his reactions can be considered truthful. But even during the deception of Reva, Vader was very much still trying to get Kenobi.
If thats your take away you should go watch Episodes 5 and 6. They both take place after Obi Wan had died and the Emperor doesn't seem too fussed about it.
And Vader has a new obsession in the form of Luke, who the Emperor sees as a powerful tool, one that he will use to replace Vader. Did you not watch 5 and 6?
Lance845 wrote: Did... you watch the show? The entire first 2 episodes is about 3rd sister obsessively chasing Obi Wan and the Grand Inquisitor and others, including Vader admonishing her for it up until the point where it actually worked. The only time Vader fixated on Obi Wan was when he was actually in front of him. Letting him escape is ACTUALLY a problem that goes against the entire organization of the inquisitors. There was no point, ever, durring this show where the pursuit of Obi Wan happened at the expense of finding other Jedi.
And Vader was playing Reva the whole time so none of his reactions can be considered truthful. But even during the deception of Reva, Vader was very much still trying to get Kenobi.
Sure. At the expense of what? What Jedi did they not get because they were chasing Obi instead? Your argument was that Palpatine didn't want Vader to chase Obi because other Jedi were getting away. What other Jedi?
If thats your take away you should go watch Episodes 5 and 6. They both take place after Obi Wan had died and the Emperor doesn't seem too fussed about it.
And Vader has a new obsession in the form of Luke, who the Emperor sees as a powerful tool, one that he will use to replace Vader. Did you not watch 5 and 6?
Your statement is that Palpatine wouldn't want Vader to kill Obi Wan because that would create an issue of his apprentice losing anger or faith or whatever. Episode 4. Obi Dies. Episode 5. Not an issue.
What you are doing is the you making up stuff to fill in the blanks to try and retroactively make this crap make sense. It's fine. It's just normal bad Starwars writing. It just doesn't make sense. It's an out of character action because we need Vader to not be looking for Obi Wan for episode 4 to happen.
Lance845 wrote: Sure. At the expense of what? What Jedi did they not get because they were chasing Obi instead? Your argument was that Palpatine didn't want Vader to chase Obi because other Jedi were getting away. What other Jedi?
At the time of Kenobi? I don't know how many Jedi but it's enough that by Rebels the Inquisitorius is still around and they need Jedi like Ahsoka to "help" them find more. There were a heck of a lot of Jedi kicking about and those Jedi can still train more. If the premier Jedi hunter is still looking for one guy, and it's only the lesser ones going after the rest that creates a problem. For Vader, the day job is hunting Jedi but the ultimate goal is finding his old master for revenge. When he gets close, he gets blinkered and his emotions take over because the Dark Side feeds those emotions. It's right there in the Sith Code:
Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
Through Passion, I gain Strength.
Through Strength, I gain Power.
Through Power, I gain Victory.
Through Victory my chains are Broken.
The Force shall free me. So when your top "employee" isn't actually doing his job you reprimand him and threaten to replace him. Even if we ignore my theory about Vader losing his hatred and passion, Vader lost Kenobi at the end of the series and doesn't know where he is anymore. The Emperor wants Vader to do his job of hunting all of the Jedi, not just Kenobi. There are other Jedi out there who are easier to find, and Palpatine needs results not just the obsessions of his apprentice.
Your statement is that Palpatine wouldn't want Vader to kill Obi Wan because that would create an issue of his apprentice losing anger or faith or whatever. Episode 4. Obi Dies. Episode 5. Not an issue.
What you are doing is the you making up stuff to fill in the blanks to try and retroactively make this crap make sense. It's fine. It's just normal bad Starwars writing. It just doesn't make sense. It's an out of character action because we need Vader to not be looking for Obi Wan for episode 4 to happen.
Its not an issue at the end of ANH because Vader has a new obsession in Luke Skywalker. A skilled young pilot who is strong with the force and was first encountered as a tag-along with Kenobi? Why wouldn't Vader be interested compared to whoever else is out there? Vader hunts the Alliance because it will lead him to Skywalker. The Emperor finds out and sees an opportunity to get a new apprentice, one who might be more powerful than Vader and who doesn't have any baggage.
Sure. At the expense of what? What Jedi did they not get because they were chasing Obi instead? Your argument was that Palpatine didn't want Vader to chase Obi because other Jedi were getting away. What other Jedi?
How about that whole ship full of underground rebels that have been aiding multiple Jedi escape that Vader let get away just to go after one obvious decoy bait? Where the GI was like shouldn’t we go after those dudes first and Vader just nah, I only care about Kenobi.
Sure. At the expense of what? What Jedi did they not get because they were chasing Obi instead? Your argument was that Palpatine didn't want Vader to chase Obi because other Jedi were getting away. What other Jedi?
How about that whole ship full of underground rebels that have been aiding multiple Jedi escape that Vader let get away just to go after one obvious decoy bait? Where the GI was like shouldn’t we go after those dudes first and Vader just nah, I only care about Kenobi.
Vader had an entire star destroyer pursuing a vessel 100th it's size with no weapons. That for some reason, didn't deploy it's tie fighters to cripple it or use it's tractor beam to lock it in place and pull it into the hanger (Classic Starwars forgetting all about all the things it can do because plot). Vaders specific job there is to get the Jedi over the little boat of mostly nobodies that should have been captured/destroyed with no issues. But you know, the Empire cannot be shown to be competent in any capacity at any time.
2 - What happens when Vader catches Kenobi? One of the things that keeps Vader's hatred alive, possibly the greatest thing, is gone, how does Palpatine keep Vader hateful? The man who "betrayed" Vader and turned his wife against him, leading to the death of his child is gone, so who does Vader turn his anger on? How about the master who tortured, degraded, and tried to kill him? TBF that's just a personal theory but it's plausible IMO.
Himself. The one thing vader hates most in whole galaxy is vader.
Finished to see it yesterday, it's IMHO the worst Star Wars instalment in history. Even worse than Solo or The Rise of Skywalker.
Why on Earth did Obi-Wan spare Darth Vader? AGAIN!! Doesn't he learn from his mistakes?
Mini Leia is the most obnoxious character in the entire SW universe. Jar Jar deserved an oscar in comparison. Ewan McGregor and his Obi-Wan were ok, but the plot was super boring and they basically ruined two iconic characters (Leia, Darth Vader) for no reason.
Huh. Mini Leia seemed fine to me. If anything she was an under-used piece of luggage.
Biggest issue is there wasn't a story to tell here, and everyone went back to their starting positions, with minor changes that don't fit their first appearance and will never be addressed.
That is….the first criticism of IckLeia I’ve read.
The actress is 10 years old, and not only owned her somewhat limited role, but was convincingly not just the child of Anakin and Padmé, but the great woman she is destined to become.
Sassy. Confident. Perhaps in need of those little lessons life provides on the way to maturity. But she isLeia. 100%.
Blackie wrote: Finished to see it yesterday, it's IMHO the worst Star Wars instalment in history. Even worse than Solo or The Rise of Skywalker.
That seems a bit hyperbolic given the fact that it's not even the worst Star Wars show in the past year. Can you honestly tell me this was worse than that awful Boba Fett show?
Why on Earth did Obi-Wan spare Darth Vader? AGAIN!! Doesn't he learn from his mistakes?
I really don't understand why people have so much trouble grasping the concept of character flaws and emotions getting in the way of rational decisions.
Blackie wrote: Finished to see it yesterday, it's IMHO the worst Star Wars instalment in history. Even worse than Solo or The Rise of Skywalker.
That seems a bit hyperbolic given the fact that it's not even the worst Star Wars show in the past year. Can you honestly tell me this was worse than that awful Boba Fett show?
Honestly, I'll say that, yeah. This doesn't go anywhere or have anything to say. This is just people you know wandering from their starting mark and back.
Boba wasn't good by any measure, and wasted a lot of time on nothing, but there were interesting character moments, pieces of a larger universe and potential stories branching out from it.
Its premise was dumb, and ending on 'why did I want this anyway?' seemed like a mockery of the entire endeavor, but there were goals and desires and emotions that made some sense to some of the characters at the time.
Kenobi walked some action figures around.
Why on Earth did Obi-Wan spare Darth Vader? AGAIN!! Doesn't he learn from his mistakes?
I really don't understand why people have so much trouble grasping the concept of character flaws and emotions getting in the way of rational decisions.
Because it wasn't flaws or emotions. Vader tells him that HE (Vader himself) killed Anakin, Obi-wan visibly accepts that as true, and just leaves.
If his emotional connection to Anakin exists _at all_, putting this monstrous, tormented shell out of his friend out of his misery and torment is objectively the right thing to do.
If his emotional connection doesn't exist, putting this terror and murderer of innocents out of everyone else's misery is objectively the right thing to do.
If he's a redemptive kind of person, trying to capture and help this tormented, broken person is the right thing to do.
For the show to put him in this situation and then just walk away? That's just... fethed up beyond words. Whatever kind of person Obi-wan is, this was a wrong choice. The storytelling was just broken.
For the scope of this show as a halfway mark in the larger narrative, this confrontation should never have happened. Vader should _never_ have been called in (and Leia shouldn't really have been involved- the rando Jedi could have been used to bait out Kenobi, instead of making him seem like a heartless scumbag), it should have been Reva's obsession alone. That's the story that could have had some meat on it, instead they took a 'revenge'/'redemption' (I have opinions on both those, but they aren't relevant) story and made a wet fart out of it because they wanted to focus on the characters people remember instead.
Sure. At the expense of what? What Jedi did they not get because they were chasing Obi instead? Your argument was that Palpatine didn't want Vader to chase Obi because other Jedi were getting away. What other Jedi?
How about that whole ship full of underground rebels that have been aiding multiple Jedi escape that Vader let get away just to go after one obvious decoy bait? Where the GI was like shouldn’t we go after those dudes first and Vader just nah, I only care about Kenobi.
Vader had an entire star destroyer pursuing a vessel 100th it's size with no weapons. That for some reason, didn't deploy it's tie fighters to cripple it or use it's tractor beam to lock it in place and pull it into the hanger (Classic Starwars forgetting all about all the things it can do because plot). Vaders specific job there is to get the Jedi over the little boat of mostly nobodies that should have been captured/destroyed with no issues. But you know, the Empire cannot be shown to be competent in any capacity at any time.
Or, you know, go off in his Lambda shuttle to duel Obiwan, and let the GI follow the rebels, rather than.... sitting in space doing nothing. Or use a few TIE fighters to patrol the area above where the rebels are attempting to escape. There was this very, very strangely individual hands on approach to the whole escapade. You can tell it was made by the folks responsible for the Last Jedi's ground assault, where we stop going after the Rebel Base to fight one old Jedi, rather than the guys responsible for Empire, where the assault took place while multiple Star Destroyers blockaded the planet with fighter support.
I aggree that this series suffered form "Horus heresy syndrome"/"prequel-itis", in that we already KNOW how most of the major characters are going to end up. Of the cast on this show, the only ones whose fate actually hung in the balance were Reva, Fake-Jedi, Imperial Traitor Lady (who had the decency to die), and maybe the grand inquistor and Rebel Leader Dude. For pretty much everyone else, we already know they survive and dont die, so that really puts a cramp on a lot of potential drama.
personally, i would have preffered if, at the end of the fight between kenobi and vader, at the point where he just walks off, instead the Grand Inquistor and some stormtroopers arrive, and force kenobi to withdraw, or extract vader. It would be a better ending, still allow kenobi to "win", and avoid this.....inexplicable way they actually chose to end it. i genuinely dont understand why they didn't do that.
i mean, the fact we are all debating and disagreeing on why kenobi did what he did, is kind of a sign that his actions dont make much sense, and/or his motovations were not properly explained.
Anyone remember RotJ where Luke doesn't kill a disarmed and helpess Vader? Or when Anakin has a moment of crisis when Palpatine orders him to kill a a disarmed Dooku and Anakin literally says "Its not the Jedi way"?
Food for thought...
Gert wrote: Anyone remember RotJ where Luke doesn't kill a disarmed and helpess Vader? Or when Anakin has a moment of crisis when Palpatine orders him to kill a a disarmed Dooku and Anakin literally says "Its not the Jedi way"?
Food for thought...
Do you? Those were crisis moments shaped by the entire scope of the story up to that point. (and the second one was temptation towards Anakin's fall, and fulfilled later, so really does not demonstrate your point well at all.)
This one had none of that. Instead it emphasized why he _should_ be stopped (causal murder, brutality, child murder), and put the characters in a decision point that this story literally could not answer. You can not put the meaning and depth of Luke's decision at the end of the trilogy in a prequel ten years before we meet Luke. It isn't functional, even if you want to disregard what happens later, and the writers didn't want to.
Especially not in the hands of Obi-wan, whose New Hope decision is a) suiciding out to enlightenment and most importantly, b) the mentor passing the torch to the next generation. Its a trope, but that is Obi-wan's role in Star Wars. His was never going to be the hand that ended it, so writing a story with that confrontation and giving him the option and motivation to do so is complete gibberish.
You can't have this confrontation here. It doesn't work from narrative or character perspective. The ship escape at the end of episode five was the proper ending for what little story we had (barring basically the same epilogue). Vader lost them, Reva slinks off without having to learn that random murder attempts on children is bad (because she already knows that), Obi-wan drops Leia off on Alderran with her souvenir, and cleans up his cave. The first half of episode six was one of the worst ideas in the history of Star Wars: its completely unnecessary, shows almost everyone off as incompetent and just screws everything up.
Can you honestly tell me this was worse than that awful Boba Fett show?
Absolutely! Although it was nothing exceptional I liked The Book of Boba Fett. I can't save a single moment of Obi-Wan Kenobi though, the whole series was bland. Of course it's just a personal opinion.
The actress is 10 years old, and not only owned her somewhat limited role, but was convincingly not just the child of Anakin and Padmé, but the great woman she is destined to become.
Sassy. Confident. Perhaps in need of those little lessons life provides on the way to maturity. But she isLeia. 100%.
Of course the actress was fine, I'm not blaming a kid. She did well for someone her age. I'm blaming the writers. And "hero that seeks redemption + child" adventure was already the main feature of The Mandalorian.
Gert wrote: Anyone remember RotJ where Luke doesn't kill a disarmed and helpess Vader? Or when Anakin has a moment of crisis when Palpatine orders him to kill a a disarmed Dooku and Anakin literally says "Its not the Jedi way"?
Food for thought...
shhh! those are completely differant and how dare you expect Obi-wan Kenobi, the man whose picture appers beside the dictionary definition of jedi to act like... A JEDI
Gert wrote: Anyone remember RotJ where Luke doesn't kill a disarmed and helpess Vader? Or when Anakin has a moment of crisis when Palpatine orders him to kill a a disarmed Dooku and Anakin literally says "Its not the Jedi way"?
Food for thought...
shhh! those are completely differant and how dare you expect Obi-wan Kenobi, the man whose picture appers beside the dictionary definition of jedi to act like... A JEDI
That's just it, isn't it? Inaction and shirking responsibility are not the Jedi way. The scenario presented is that Obi Wan has the choice between killing an incapacitated opponent, which is not the Jedi way, or walking away knowing full well Vader is going to commit further atrocities, which is also not the Jedi way.
When it comes down to it the entire confrontation is just careless writing:
- Since it's obviously not possible to neatly kill Vader in combat, Obi Wan can't be let off the hook the same way he dealt with Darth Maul and General Grievous.
- He doesn't have the institutional backing to bring in Vader and let a court handle him from there, especially since his list of allies is so low that in trying to do so he might expose Luke and Leia.
- He can't kill Vader for obvious continuity reasons, but he also can't kill an incapacitated opponent because it's not something an exemplary Jedi can do, except... just let me get back to this later.
- He walks away, but he shouldn't because he has the ability to save countless innocent lives and he does nothing.
The problem is that putting Obi Wan in this situation doesn't allow him to come out clean. There is no good choice here. The show narrows it down to two options: Obi Wan can be a loathsome murderer or he can be a loathsome coward. It opts for the latter. Neither option is in accordance with what we are told of the Jedi, but the one where Vader ends up dead has consistent precedent in the prequels. Both Yoda and Obi Wan set out to assassinate Palpi and Anakin respectively, with the intent to kill. Because as terrible a choice as it is to make, the alternatives are worse. Mace very emphatically argues for the immediate execution of Palpi because again, the alternatives are worse. Jedi aren't above loading up on personal guilt if it serves the greater good. They may be principled, but not to the point where they let those principles override every other consideration.
Unless the writers specifically wanted to make Obi Wan look bad, there's no good reason to put him into this position.
She's a Jedi youngling, who gets stabbed by Anakin, but doesn't die because she can 'play dead' and apparently nobody was checking when clearing the temple.
She gets away and somehow becomes an Inquisitor, because she's really angry at Obi-wan for having trained Anakin and not having been at the temple to stop him killing kids (you'd think that, being fully aware of Order 66, she'd have got a clue that he was otherwise engaged at the time), and at Vader for killing her friends.
Vader knows that she wants to kill him, but keeps her around because she's really angry at Obi-wan. But then when he has the chance to capture/kill Obi-wan he just doesn't because the force can only be used to extinguish fires once per episode, and all of the nearby stormtroopers were off-screen at the time.
Then when she does betray Vader, he... still doesn't kill her, because lightsaber impalement/dismemberment is only fatal in this universe if you're Quigon, and he's learnt nothing from the last time this exact thing happened between him and her.
She's still big mad at Obi-wan (who she also didn't kill when she had the chance...) so she uses the message Organa sent (making him one of the most idiotic characters in fiction) to go and kill Luke, who as far as she knows is just some rando who happens to be somehow connected to Obi-wan.
She's a Jedi youngling, who gets stabbed by Anakin, but doesn't die because she can 'play dead' and apparently nobody was checking when clearing the temple.
She gets away and somehow becomes an Inquisitor, because she's really angry at Obi-wan for having trained Anakin and not having been at the temple to stop him killing kids (you'd think that, being fully aware of Order 66, she'd have got a clue that he was otherwise engaged at the time), and at Vader for killing her friends.
Vader knows that she wants to kill him, but keeps her around because she's really angry at Obi-wan. But then when he has the chance to capture/kill Obi-wan he just doesn't because the force can only be used to extinguish fires once per episode, and all of the nearby stormtroopers were off-screen at the time.
Then when she does betray Vader, he... still doesn't kill her, because lightsaber impalement/dismemberment is only fatal in this universe if you're Quigon, and he's learnt nothing from the last time this exact thing happened between him and her.
She's still big mad at Obi-wan (who she also didn't kill when she had the chance...) so she uses the message Organa sent (making him one of the most idiotic characters in fiction) to go and kill Luke, who as far as she knows is just some rando who happens to be somehow connected to Obi-wan.
Then she goes off to cameo in some future show.
slightly better than that
she is a former youngling who surived the temple massacre, but most of the inquistors are fallen jedi anyway ( mentioned by kenobi, and in Rebels, the Grand Inquistor is a former temple guard), for example, so thats not a problem per se. Likewise, the fact she hates vader and wants to kill him is sith 101. Her obsession with Anakin is mainly as a means to an end (getting enough favour to get close to vader), though she might blame him for failing to stop anakins turn to evil as well.
i still dont know how she worked out that Luke is Vader's son, given that she never met Luke, only Owen, and the stupid message (but not impossible, desperate parents do stupid things, and sending a message on a secure point to point receiver isnt too much of a stretch) never names Luke or identifies him as anyone special, but that is her motivation to try and kill Luke, as revenge on vader, and her flashbacks to her own childhood trauma stop her.
Geifer wrote: - Since it's obviously not possible to neatly kill Vader in combat
Why not? If that cut through the helmet was an inch or two deeper that would have been the end of him right there. We've seen plenty of fatal lightsaber blows delivered in combat.
The problem is that putting Obi Wan in this situation doesn't allow him to come out clean.
Well yes, that's kind of the point. I'm not sure why "they didn't use pure black and white morality where the good guys are always perfect" is such an unacceptable flaw to you?
Exactly. At least in the old canon it was explicit that a sith master trains an apprentice knowing full well that the apprentice will try to kill them at some point. If the apprentice fails (or fails to make the attempt at all) then the apprentice was weak and can be discarded in favor of someone stronger. If the apprentice succeeds then they have proved their strength and that they deserve the position of master, and the sith cause is advanced. Vader keeping around an inquisitor who wants to kill him is entirely in line with the sith "if you kill me you deserve the position" ideology. If anything he would have even more contempt for a pathetic slave of an inquisitor who has no ambitions beyond serving someone stronger and won't even attempt to seize power by stepping over the bodies of their former masters.
The issues isn't clean black and white morality It's that this fight was just a repeat of the last one. Obi wins, and Vader goes for a roll in the fire. The message from Episode 4 is upheld and all the dialog matches. Having them fight 2 more times ends with a for gone conclusion. Vader wins the first fight to establish him as a threat and Obi wins the second fight so that they can have a repeat of the discussion they had in episode 3.
Obi: "You were my friend. I am in grief"
Anakin: "I hate you. I will kill you"
And then they separate both alive so that they can meet on the death star in another 10 years.
Lets all hope for Obi Wan s2 so we can watch them have this circumstance/dialog for the 3rd god damn time.
I suspect if we do get a Season 2, Vader won’t be involved at all.
Rather we’ll see Kenobi doing Good Jedi Deeds.
In fact, if anyone other than me recalls the Ewar Woowar show “The Equalizer”? To see a Jedi based Private Eye trouble shooter show could be quite something.
I mean….Kenobi lived on Tattooine. He was was known to Jabba. Jabba pretty much owns Tattooine. How come Jabba never figured he could curry favour and make some dosh by selling Kenobi out? There’s a potential story right there.
In fact, if anyone other than me recalls the Ewar Woowar show “The Equalizer”? To see a Jedi based Private Eye trouble shooter show could be quite something.
I mean….Kenobi lived on Tattooine. He was was known to Jabba. Jabba pretty much owns Tattooine. How come Jabba never figured he could curry favour and make some dosh by selling Kenobi out? There’s a potential story right there.
Soooooo, a weird desert hobo version of Book of Boba then? No thanks, I'm really done with more stories being told on Tattooine and if anything this just doubles down on trying to expand a backstory of Obi Wan (who was supposed to lay low and just keep an eye on Luke) that isn't necessary and will have forced drama and conflict for the sake of drawing out viewership.
If I wanted a Private Eye show, I would want it more in the context of something that looked like it would be covered in the cancelled Star Wars game 1313, where it looked like we would be able to see more of Coruscant's underbelly. New characters and smugglers with no affiliation to the Rebels or Empire would be a nice way of setting up new worldbuilding without having to constantly drudge up the same conflicts we've seen before.
In fact, if anyone other than me recalls the Ewar Woowar show “The Equalizer”? To see a Jedi based Private Eye trouble shooter show could be quite something.
I mean….Kenobi lived on Tattooine. He was was known to Jabba. Jabba pretty much owns Tattooine. How come Jabba never figured he could curry favour and make some dosh by selling Kenobi out? There’s a potential story right there.
Probably because Jabba is intelligent enough to know not to rock the boat. He owns the planet and there is only a token imperial force there. He's not going to risk calling down vader and a legion of troops over him for the sake of some cash.
In fact, if anyone other than me recalls the Ewar Woowar show “The Equalizer”? To see a Jedi based Private Eye trouble shooter show could be quite something.
I mean….Kenobi lived on Tattooine. He was was known to Jabba. Jabba pretty much owns Tattooine. How come Jabba never figured he could curry favour and make some dosh by selling Kenobi out? There’s a potential story right there.
Probably because Jabba is intelligent enough to know not to rock the boat. He owns the planet and there is only a token imperial force there. He's not going to risk calling down vader and a legion of troops over him for the sake of some cash.
In fact, if anyone other than me recalls the Ewar Woowar show “The Equalizer”? To see a Jedi based Private Eye trouble shooter show could be quite something.
I mean….Kenobi lived on Tattooine. He was was known to Jabba. Jabba pretty much owns Tattooine. How come Jabba never figured he could curry favour and make some dosh by selling Kenobi out? There’s a potential story right there.
Probably because Jabba is intelligent enough to know not to rock the boat. He owns the planet and there is only a token imperial force there. He's not going to risk calling down vader and a legion of troops over him for the sake of some cash.
Which in itself is in fact a story untold.
I mean, you could probably have an entire sidestory about how wookies on Kashykk were enslaved by the Empire, but it's not something they would likely make a whole show about.
Sometimes it's not about if you could, but if you should.
In fact, if anyone other than me recalls the Ewar Woowar show “The Equalizer”? To see a Jedi based Private Eye trouble shooter show could be quite something.
I mean….Kenobi lived on Tattooine. He was was known to Jabba. Jabba pretty much owns Tattooine. How come Jabba never figured he could curry favour and make some dosh by selling Kenobi out? There’s a potential story right there.
Probably because Jabba is intelligent enough to know not to rock the boat. He owns the planet and there is only a token imperial force there. He's not going to risk calling down vader and a legion of troops over him for the sake of some cash.
Which in itself is in fact a story untold.
But is it a story worth telling? (Whatever the story is supposed to be here. Two people that don't want to attract direct attention from the Empire... don't have a conflict?)
Kenobi's whole bag in this period is being in hiding. Dumb things happen if he comes out. We've acknowledged he's there, and the execution was pretty horrible. We don't need more reasons to demonstrate how bad he is at hiding.
----
On a (slightly different note), Disney+ is showing Star Wars in Timeline Order, which is disturbing that they have enough SW crap to feel that's necessary. Most of its pretty obvious, but between the prequels and OT, they have
Bad Batch --> Solo --> Kenobi ---> Rebels ---> Rogue One.
The show crossover potential annoys me, particularly with Bad Batch 2 is an upcoming thing (and the lack of clarity of how much of a time jump it has). But gosh, now I'm picture Omega as a bodyguard/combat tutor for young Leia and them walking past young Han in a space port, obvious Boba Fett role and the whole open season of star wars street. Ignore that sound in the background, I'm just trying to talk over Mel Brooks yelling 'Merchandising, merchandising, merchandising!'
Geifer wrote: - Since it's obviously not possible to neatly kill Vader in combat
Why not? If that cut through the helmet was an inch or two deeper that would have been the end of him right there. We've seen plenty of fatal lightsaber blows delivered in combat.
Then you need to introduce story how vader comes back from death in time for anh.
Geifer wrote: - Since it's obviously not possible to neatly kill Vader in combat
Why not? If that cut through the helmet was an inch or two deeper that would have been the end of him right there. We've seen plenty of fatal lightsaber blows delivered in combat.
Then you need to introduce story how vader comes back from death in time for anh.
frustatingly, we seem to be seeing the groundwork for making that stupid line make sense NOW, not before the Rise of Skywalker. Mando and kenboi have both delt in passing with the empire rounding up force sensitives for Some Nefarious Plan, and im pretty sure its the Emperors Get Out Of Death Free card they are working on.
if only they had thought to include some of this in Rise itself, it might have been ok.
Geifer wrote: - Since it's obviously not possible to neatly kill Vader in combat
Why not? If that cut through the helmet was an inch or two deeper that would have been the end of him right there. We've seen plenty of fatal lightsaber blows delivered in combat.
Why not? Because he doesn't die for another decade and a half. Did you miss that my entire post was about the writers' choices, not in universe possibilities?
The problem is that putting Obi Wan in this situation doesn't allow him to come out clean.
Well yes, that's kind of the point. I'm not sure why "they didn't use pure black and white morality where the good guys are always perfect" is such an unacceptable flaw to you?
Is grey morality actually a point made about Obi Wan in the show? I must have missed that, which is strange because Lucasfilm isn't subtle about morality (or to be taken as an authority on ethics when it comes down to it).
And why would that point be made about one of the most virtuous Jedi we know in the first place?
Obi Wan isn't without flaws, but they're pretty much limited to his liberal and unethical use of the mind trick, which is only used on designated bad guys and therefore supposed to be overlooked, and telling Luke he should be trained as an assassin so he can murder his own father, which is Jedi policy first and foremost.
Also, thanks for misrepresenting my argument and motivation, I guess.
xerxeskingofking wrote: frustatingly, we seem to be seeing the groundwork for making that stupid line make sense NOW, not before the Rise of Skywalker. Mando and kenboi have both delt in passing with the empire rounding up force sensitives for Some Nefarious Plan, and im pretty sure its the Emperors Get Out Of Death Free card they are working on.
if only they had thought to include some of this in Rise itself, it might have been ok.
If only they had planned out the sequel trilogy? Well, wouldn't that have been a good idea...
She's a Jedi youngling, who gets stabbed by Anakin, but doesn't die because she can 'play dead' and apparently nobody was checking when clearing the temple.
She gets away and somehow becomes an Inquisitor, because she's really angry at Obi-wan for having trained Anakin and not having been at the temple to stop him killing kids (you'd think that, being fully aware of Order 66, she'd have got a clue that he was otherwise engaged at the time), and at Vader for killing her friends.
Vader knows that she wants to kill him, but keeps her around because she's really angry at Obi-wan. But then when he has the chance to capture/kill Obi-wan he just doesn't because the force can only be used to extinguish fires once per episode, and all of the nearby stormtroopers were off-screen at the time.
Then when she does betray Vader, he... still doesn't kill her, because lightsaber impalement/dismemberment is only fatal in this universe if you're Quigon, and he's learnt nothing from the last time this exact thing happened between him and her.
She's still big mad at Obi-wan (who she also didn't kill when she had the chance...) so she uses the message Organa sent (making him one of the most idiotic characters in fiction) to go and kill Luke, who as far as she knows is just some rando who happens to be somehow connected to Obi-wan.
Then she goes off to cameo in some future show.
Agreed
Anyway I still think Mando crushed it and was much better than this show. If I had to rate it would be 8/10 Mando, 6/10 Kenobi, 5/10 Boba Fett so far. I'd rate the clone wars cartoon around a 7-8/10 then.
Will I rewatch this? Probably. I might start on episode 3 or 4 and skip the first two however.
just saw this on youtube commentator vid, but apparently Disney released the viewing figures for the finale of Kenobi, which were "1.8 million US households", a significant jump on the finale viewers for Book of boba fett (1.5 million) or season 2 of Madolorian (1.1 million). i dont have a time frame for which these numbers were gathered form, but i'd guess the first few days after the release of the finale.
i think its safe to say that disney will be looking to make a season 2, and it will be intresting to see if Mado season 3 has an even higher viewership. Clearly, what they are doing is working, and its creating content that people are watching.
Andor starts in a few months, so if Disney keeps releasing number it'll be interesting to see how it goes. I don't expect that Andor can reach Obi Wan. There will be plenty of people who watch because of the big names. As great as Grogu was to get people's attention for the first live action show, if you make a show about Darth Vader and Obi Wan Kenobi you'll simply have a larger pool of interested viewers to draw on. I'm looking forward to Andor myself, but I don't think the show has anywhere near that kind of draw.
For better or for worse, going for shows with well established and popular characters works. New characters either get cult favouritism (Mando and Ahsoka after Filoni grew the character up) or nobody really cares (basically everyone in Rogue One). Take Rebels, it was fine as a fun kids show with contained characters but it wasn't super popular. So what did the showrunners do? They brought in Vader, Ahsoka, the Mandolorians, and one of the most beloved EU characters, Thrawn. Rebels did what Clone Wars had before, becoming a place where EU material could be inserted into canon without needing a full movie about it. But nobody really cares about the main cast, just that it added loads of EU stuff like TIE Defenders, Interdictors, Sith super weapons and popular characters.
The problem Rogue One had wasn't just that it was new characters. It was a LOT of new characters. It's a bit like the superhero films we get now where you've got a mash-up of a dozen or more different heroes.
What basically happens is you've so many new characters all established in the setting that you're taken along for the ride but given very little time with each character for them to establish themselves. Plus because so many are already established in the setting, you don't get that "here's the start of the adventure" type situation.
You're basically jumping into book 2 of a trilogy and missing out book 1. Yes it can work, sometimes it works great; but its tricky for viewers to start building a relation with the characters.
Rogue One didn’t need to build up the characters they much.
We’re familiar with the overall setting. We’re familiar with the Bad Guys Dastardly Plan, and why it’s kind of important it’s stopped.
What it did add was to show how desperate the Rebels were (remember, Andor isn’t a Nice Guy. Straight up murders someone to save his own skin. Very nearly murders Jyn’s Dad.
Crucially? For the first time on the big screen, we see just how heavy handed The Empire is. On Jeddha we see civilians being roughed up with impunity,
Who our cast actually are didn’t really matter that much, because the Situation is sold to us,
Both Rogue One and Solo are ultimately kind of disposable. Absolutely nobody needs to see them to understand what happens next. Whilst Solo is enjoyable enough, I do question the why of it. Rogue One though? I’d actively recommend.
Don't get me wrong, Rogue One is probably my favourite Star War and the fact that everyone just dies at the end is brilliant. It's very much a movie where we actually see the power of the Empire in full swing.
It definitely helps to show just how critical the loss of the Death Star was, especially after Alderaan.
By that point, confident his power was absolute and his position inviolable, Palpatine dissolves the Senate, dropping all pretence at democracy. The Death Star was the reason why.
And by the time it’s destroyed over Yavin? The scales have fallen from many eyes. And the Empire has been shown to be fallible, standing up to them not pointless.
Gert wrote: Don't get me wrong, Rogue One is probably my favourite Star War and the fact that everyone just dies at the end is brilliant. It's very much a movie where we actually see the power of the Empire in full swing.
Mine too, since Empire Strikes Back at least. One of its strength comes from being the only movie, along with Solo, in which the main characters are just regular guys. Skilled perhaps, but without superpowers, which is IMHO one of the main reasons why ep IV and V were so good (Leia, Chewbacca, Solo and the droids don't have superpowers, Luke doesn't have superpowers at first as well). Plus it's a standalone story with a definitive ending, which is another great feature. I personally dislike seeing the same characters over and over again. As protagonists I mean, they're great for cameos though. And Rogue One has lots of cameos.
I believe one reason Kenobi season 1 was so bad is that we're pretty bored with Obi Wan, Leia and Darth Vader at this point. And with jedi fighting a sith in a duel with force powers and lightsabers. All seen countless times. And the main reasons why the recent trilogy was bad is the lack of new material: Kylo Ren and Rei are just another versions of Vader and Luke, and there are still Chewbacca, Solo, Leia, Luke and the Emperor in main roles.
But the setting is great, so a story that doesn't involve the same old stuff and/or the same old characters might be good. Kenobi season 2 could be ok, as long the writers manage to find an interesting story that doesn't involve Luke, Vader, the jedi, etc...
Gert wrote: Don't get me wrong, Rogue One is probably my favourite Star War and the fact that everyone just dies at the end is brilliant. It's very much a movie where we actually see the power of the Empire in full swing.
I did delight in SW showing what happens when a guerrilla force meets the enemy in open battle. I suspect a reason why so many like Empire strikes back is the Empire is dangerous. Rather than meme troopers you see a competent military (well, not so much on the ground, but good enough considering it was mooks vs named characters) that will smash anything that stands up to it and using the tactics they are meant to (Tie swarms, heavy firepower, etc.).
It works the other way too, in demonstrating how hit and fade works against a juggernaut type force.
Scarrif was of course an ambitious target, especially with the shield preventing a rapid retreat. But when you see the panic on the Imperial side of “WTF?? They’re attacking us here??” I think it pays off.
The Hammerhead manoeuvre is an excellent example of unorthodox tactics making the most out of opportunity,
I think the cast did really well with it as well. Ben Mendelsohn especially as an aristocratic Imperial officer concerned with his career was brilliant. Also:
In my opinion, Rogue One was, hands down, the best star wars film that Disney produced. Solo was a 3.4, not great, not terrible, but a bit too fan-servicey, and honestly, The force Awakens is also a 3.4, but for different reasons (nothing wrong with it per se, just nothing amazing either). The Rise of Skywalker is the worst flim of the whole saga, almost entirely because it doesn't even try to mesh with what was done with "the last Jedi" (which is 2nd worst, for the record, although i actually love the description of the force scene in it), and just hits the reset button to drag the story back to where it was "supposed to be going" so hard, its painful.
I will seriously never understand why the fandom loves Rogue One so much. It's a god awful film with some of the most forgettable characters in Star Wars, but the lasers and explosions at the end somehow make the whole thing worth it. It's baffling. If Rogue One was an entry in any other franchise, it would have been savagely torn apart.
Its the beginning that makes it worth it. There's so much of the universe that we've never seen before, instead of the same old crap and same old faces. And it actually takes the time to show us some of that before being forced to link up directly with the start of New Hope.
For about 30-40 minutes, Star Wars actually felt like a galaxy rather than a handful of tired meme planets and Star Wars street.
I'm not sure if Rise of Skywalker is worse than Attack of the Clones, but deciding would require rewatching at least one of them, and I'm not about to dare go down that path.
On the whole I think Last Jedi is one of the better films, but its so long that there's both an entire movie of some of the best scenes in Star Wars.... and a whole movie worth of some of the worst.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I will seriously never understand why the fandom loves Rogue One so much. It's a god awful film with some of the most forgettable characters in Star Wars, but the lasers and explosions at the end somehow make the whole thing worth it. It's baffling. If Rogue One was an entry in any other franchise, it would have been savagely torn apart.
I really don't think Jyn and Galen were forgettable. Andor, K-2S0, Chirrut, Krennic were all very good characters. Jyn is infinitely more likable than Rey ever will be, which is a big part of why I liked the film.
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LunarSol wrote: I'm not sure if Rise of Skywalker is worse than Attack of the Clones, but deciding would require rewatching at least one of them, and I'm not about to dare go down that path.
On the whole I think Last Jedi is one of the better films, but its so long that there's both an entire movie of some of the best scenes in Star Wars.... and a whole movie worth of some of the worst.
The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones are in my opinion the very best of Star Wars. I'll never get tired of enjoying those two films.
LunarSol wrote: I'm not sure if Rise of Skywalker is worse than Attack of the Clones, but deciding would require rewatching at least one of them, and I'm not about to dare go down that path.
On the whole I think Last Jedi is one of the better films, but its so long that there's both an entire movie of some of the best scenes in Star Wars.... and a whole movie worth of some of the worst.
dont get me wrong, attack has its own flaws. all the star wars movies do, but i would say attack made far fewer of them, again because it had a much more coherent and controlled development, and tied into the preceding film, whereas Rise just basically retconned a major plot point of the previous film, introduced a new enemy form left field with zero explanation or even build up (literally "somehow hes back"!), tries to have a shock main character kill (that it can't bring itself to actually kill), and the ending space battle doesnt work of a laundry list of reasons i wont bore you with.
trust me, its significantly better worse than attack of the clones.
edit: somehow called it better than attack, dispite not meaning to.
Another good side to Rogue One was the Death Troopers. They've become by far my favorite trooper look. And they, at least, get to be competent for a scene before the plot armor kicks in.
Andor
Bad Batch 2
Tales of the Jedi (2022, six episodes covering Ahsoka, Dooku, Jinn, Windu, Anakin and 'more')
Mando 3 (Feb, 2023)
Young Jedi Adventures (2023, animated, aimed at pre-school age kids, and randomly possibly the first High Republic show, but the article seems confused about that)
Ahsoka (2023)
SW Skeleton Crew (?? post OT, Jude Law and apparently a bunch of kids trying to go home)
The Acolyte (??, end of the High Republic, because obviously that's the best place to start)
And finally, Lando. (?? because the guy who played him in Solo is apparently super busy)
Also Rogue Squadron is still a thing, and still 2023.
Help me Obi Wan Kenobi Cassian Andor, you are my only hope! I said I was looking forward to it and was hoping this was going to happen, but reading it in the article makes me happy:
Andor will bring back Saw Gerrera (Forest Whitaker)...
He's easily one of the best things to happen to Star Wars in the last decade.
Good old Pitch Meeting is spot on, but I still enjoyed the show despite it's flaws, mainly for the bits with Vader in, and young Leia joins that very small number of child characters I don't find incredibly annoying. If Season 2 goes ahead then hopefully they'll learn some lessons.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I will seriously never understand why the fandom loves Rogue One so much. It's a god awful film with some of the most forgettable characters in Star Wars, but the lasers and explosions at the end somehow make the whole thing worth it. It's baffling. If Rogue One was an entry in any other franchise, it would have been savagely torn apart.
A lot of Star Wars fans like the military Sci Fi part more than space wizards. The idea of a rebellion against a vast, corrupt galactic power. Rogue One does that. Not perfectly, but if the highlight of the films for you was Hoth you have had to wait a long time for anything similar.
That and the crime (which R1 also overlaps with a little). I'm here for the fun stuff, not morally bankrupt space wizards with a pyramid-temple full of hubris.
If only the Empire had remembered that they have nigh impenetrable shields which can cover a whole planet when they built those giant space stations...
creeping-deth87 wrote: I will seriously never understand why the fandom loves Rogue One so much. It's a god awful film with some of the most forgettable characters in Star Wars, but the lasers and explosions at the end somehow make the whole thing worth it. It's baffling. If Rogue One was an entry in any other franchise, it would have been savagely torn apart.
We love it because we finally got to see an OT-era space battle with modern CGI. No jedi, no main characters doing gimmick nonsense with a battle in the background like ROTS, just x-wings and y-wings dogfighting with TIE fighters like God Himself intended. Which of course makes it completely baffling that Disney hasn't given us a Rogue Squadron show, or even a halfway decent dogfight. It's sad that the best new Star Wars war content was in a video game trailer.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I will seriously never understand why the fandom loves Rogue One so much. It's a god awful film with some of the most forgettable characters in Star Wars, but the lasers and explosions at the end somehow make the whole thing worth it. It's baffling. If Rogue One was an entry in any other franchise, it would have been savagely torn apart.
We love it because we finally got to see an OT-era space battle with modern CGI. No jedi, no main characters doing gimmick nonsense with a battle in the background like ROTS, just x-wings and y-wings dogfighting with TIE fighters like God Himself intended.
Exactly, I couldn't have explained it better.
I also add that a standalone story, with a beginning and a definitive ending, is something some people (me, for starters) value a lot, especially in an era of endless sagas.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I will seriously never understand why the fandom loves Rogue One so much. It's a god awful film with some of the most forgettable characters in Star Wars, but the lasers and explosions at the end somehow make the whole thing worth it. It's baffling. If Rogue One was an entry in any other franchise, it would have been savagely torn apart.
We love it because we finally got to see an OT-era space battle with modern CGI. No jedi, no main characters doing gimmick nonsense with a battle in the background like ROTS, just x-wings and y-wings dogfighting with TIE fighters like God Himself intended. Which of course makes it completely baffling that Disney hasn't given us a Rogue Squadron show, or even a halfway decent dogfight. It's sad that the best new Star Wars war content was in a video game trailer.
So, in other words, the lasers and explosions at the end somehow make the whole thing worth it?
creeping-deth87 wrote: I will seriously never understand why the fandom loves Rogue One so much. It's a god awful film with some of the most forgettable characters in Star Wars, but the lasers and explosions at the end somehow make the whole thing worth it. It's baffling. If Rogue One was an entry in any other franchise, it would have been savagely torn apart.
We love it because we finally got to see an OT-era space battle with modern CGI. No jedi, no main characters doing gimmick nonsense with a battle in the background like ROTS, just x-wings and y-wings dogfighting with TIE fighters like God Himself intended. Which of course makes it completely baffling that Disney hasn't given us a Rogue Squadron show, or even a halfway decent dogfight. It's sad that the best new Star Wars war content was in a video game trailer.
So, in other words, the lasers and explosions at the end somehow make the whole thing worth it?
So, in other words, anyone who watches films in a long running sci-fi series known not only for special effects but innovative special effects shouldn’t enjoy seeing films in that long running sci-fi series when they include special effects?\
It's a story about regular dudes, not superheroes. And the main cast is all new characters.
I find characters like Andor and Jyn much more interesting than Luke or Rei, let alone Anakin, and an antagonist like Krennic also much more interesting than the Emperor or Kylo Ren. There's also a plethora of secondary characters that are extremely interesting and refreshing, starting with the droid.
Visuals are great the entire movie but at least when it comes to real battles there isn't the nonsense we saw countless times in other SW installments.
Lord Damocles wrote: If only the Empire had remembered that they have nigh impenetrable shields which can cover a whole planet when they built those giant space stations...
Wow, now we have a new 'weirdest complaint ever.'
They didn't forget. That was the entire point of the ground operation on Endor. To knock out the shields protecting the death star.
The entire space battle, rebel fleet vs imperial fleet, was a delaying action until those shields were shut down.
So, in other words, anyone who watches films in a long running sci-fi series known not only for special effects but innovative special effects shouldn’t enjoy seeing films in that long running sci-fi series when they include special effects?\
It’s…..a weird flex.
Who's flexing? I'm genuinely curious why star wars fans love Rogue One. Voss so far is the only person I've seen defend the film with something other than 'b-b-but the battle at the end is so cool! And Vader! Did you see Vader?!'
I'm curious what your issues with the movie are. Mind going into more detail than "It's a god awful film with some of the most forgettable characters in Star Wars"?
i enjoyed the early parts of the moive, as well as the big end battle. The exploration of the darker side of the rebellion, of the lengths that those fighting the empire would go to for "the greater good". Quite a few rebels showed they were, in fact, the terrorists the imperials said they were.
I feel thiers room for a series or show with a greater focus on this aspect, with the main cast being a bunch of "villain protagonists", morally grey type imperial intel agents, working against full on "ends justify the means" extremist rebel group. the show can explore the problems both sides face, the imperials having to recoile their desire for a stable orderly government that just lets people get on with living with the increasingly cartoonishly evil senior leadership, and the rebels can soul search over the questions of wether their noble goals can actaully justify the means they are forced to use etc.
lots of room for great character work, but i feel its much to morally complex for modern production......
I by no means think Rogue One is a perfect movie, and I think there are definitely parts of it that could be improved. But I think the fact that it slots in well into the other movies without feeling overbearing or too big on the nostalgia factor beyond Vader and that brief moment with Leia, really helped to set up the feeling of the Rebel Alliance beyond the main cast of the OT. Furthermore, seeing the internal Imperial politicking between Krennic, Vader and Tarkin was nice and gives us more of the Empire's perspective than we usually get in the movies. The fact that the focus was a pyrrhic victory for the rebels and it was more on the regular mooks rather than the Jedi was an added plus and shows how things were moving forward even before Luke and the gang got the ball rolling in a New Hope.
Geifer wrote: I'm curious what your issues with the movie are. Mind going into more detail than "It's a god awful film with some of the most forgettable characters in Star Wars"?
The forgettable characters are exactly what make it atrocious. Star Wars fans love to talk about how much Scarif makes up for the rest of the movie, but it's really hard to get invested in the action when I'm not invested in the characters. Outside of Jyn and Andor, I couldn't tell you the name of a single character in their team. Not one. I'm supposed to care when they die, but I don't because they're just that unmemorable.
It's also very hard to get invested in the story because you know the death star plans end up with the Rebels, which saps a lot of the tension out of what is supposed to be the climax. You know Tantive IV is going to be fine, because Vader has to board it at the beginning of ANH. The whole thing is just chock full of 'why did I need to see any of this?'
Geifer wrote: In an ideal world you just described Andor, but yeah, I'm not expecting it.
Come on, Disney. Prove me wrong. I dare you!
Probably worth checking out Rebels. Not as dark as described above, and it is in the end a kid’s show. First season needs perseverance, but is required watching. The rest is simply amazing stuff.
Geifer wrote: I'm curious what your issues with the movie are. Mind going into more detail than "It's a god awful film with some of the most forgettable characters in Star Wars"?
The forgettable characters are exactly what make it atrocious. Star Wars fans love to talk about how much Scarif makes up for the rest of the movie, but it's really hard to get invested in the action when I'm not invested in the characters. Outside of Jyn and Andor, I couldn't tell you the name of a single character in their team. Not one. I'm supposed to care when they die, but I don't because they're just that unmemorable.
It's also very hard to get invested in the story because you know the death star plans end up with the Rebels, which saps a lot of the tension out of what is supposed to be the climax. You know Tantive IV is going to be fine, because Vader has to board it at the beginning of ANH. The whole thing is just chock full of 'why did I need to see any of this?'
I see, thanks.
The thing is, if that's how you feel about stories that fill in blanks between existing movies and shows, there's no point in arguing the merits of the movie. If you don't see the appeal, you don't see the appeal.
As has been mentioned already, you see the action from the perspective of non-notable characters. That's something a lot of people are interested in from a franchise that had a lot of material surrounding the big names and a where a lot revolved around the actions of those characters. It's been joked, even if it's the wrong Death Star and factually incorrect, that it's great to see the many Bothans that died to bring the rebellion those plans. It is, if you will, the behind the scenes look that shows the little people without which the rebellion couldn't succeed, but who always stand in the shadow of the big names. If that is not of interest to you, then yeah, Rogue One loses a lot of its appeal.
Geifer wrote: In an ideal world you just described Andor, but yeah, I'm not expecting it.
Come on, Disney. Prove me wrong. I dare you!
Probably worth checking out Rebels. Not as dark as described above, and it is in the end a kid’s show. First season needs perseverance, but is required watching. The rest is simply amazing stuff.
Saw it. Loved it. Got to disagree on the first season thing the same way I disagree with people who say bad things about first or second season Ahsoka. It's still cool stuff because it really, really needs to start there or else you don't get the same growth, and by extension the payoff in the end isn't as big.
So, in other words, anyone who watches films in a long running sci-fi series known not only for special effects but innovative special effects shouldn’t enjoy seeing films in that long running sci-fi series when they include special effects?\
It’s…..a weird flex.
Who's flexing? I'm genuinely curious why star wars fans love Rogue One. Voss so far is the only person I've seen defend the film with something other than 'b-b-but the battle at the end is so cool! And Vader! Did you see Vader?!'
I made quite a few points about why I liked it. I can repeat them: standalone story with a definite ending, main cast made of new characters, and protagonists without superpowers. Those are massive improvements to any average SW episode IMHO.
About the characters, do you really think Padme, Jar Jar, Anakin, Rei, Kylo Ren, Snoke, 60+ years old Leia and Luke are better than Rogue One characters? I also don't remember Rogue One's characters names and I watched it 3-4 times, last time a week ago or so, and perfectly remember lots of terrible SW characters instead. But such SW characters are still bad even if I remember who they are, maybe I remember their names just because they've always annoyed me so much .
It's also very hard to get invested in the story because you know the death star plans end up with the Rebels, which saps a lot of the tension out of what is supposed to be the climax. You know Tantive IV is going to be fine, because Vader has to board it at the beginning of ANH. The whole thing is just chock full of 'why did I need to see any of this?'
But the same can be said about the entire episodes I, II and III. We know from the beginning that Empire will rise, Jedi will be destroyed and Anakin will become Vader. Even who the emperor is, since it's the same actor of the older trilogy. We really know everything about how it will going to end and it's a 3 movies slog, not just one.
Rogue one's main three (Andor, Jyn, and K-2SO) I think were fine characters. Rook was fine too and maybe one of the more memorable members of the cast for how convincingly he played this bumbling and disoriented guy who was just desperately trying to do the right thing.
The monk and the gun guy on the other hand could probably have been written out of the movie to no real detriment, and Saw Gerrara was, at the time of release, a name drop with little to no context. Saw's character wouldn't really start coming together until after Rogue One.
Had a busy June so I delayed watching any of Kenobi until the last few days and resisted reading reviews. Not great. Not terrible.
What bothered me the most was that it was bumping up against New Hope a little too close for comfort. I could accept Rogue One because it was telling the story of how the plans got into Leia's hands. We knew how it would end but we didn't know about the fates of the characters. With Kenobi it felt like parts of New Hope didn't really make sense anymore.
Why would Leia record a rather formal message to Ben saying "Years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars..." when instead she would have said "Hey Ben, remember when we had those adventures eight years ago? OMG I need your help again!" You'd also think she'd be a little more distraught by his death and perhaps mention her experiences with Ben when consoling Luke? This is quibbling, but there it is. When six-year old TangoTwoBravo watched Star Wars in its original theatrical release he knew that the encounter on between Vader and Ben was a big deal - a reckoning. Much older TangoTwoBravo watching Kenobi wonders why the encounter on the Death Star was so important given what went on in the series?
It also had the problem of nothing really happening for the main characters, because nothing could. The Mandalorian worked as a series because Mando, Baby Yoda and the rest were free of the audience knowing exactly what happens to them in a future movie. It will get tougher as The Mandalorian progresses, but they have some sea room to manouevre. Kenobi? Not so much. That lack of room is not the fault of the writers/director/actors, but it does make you wonder what the show developers thought they would able to do?
CadianSgtBob wrote: Which of course makes it completely baffling that Disney hasn't given us a Rogue Squadron show, or even a halfway decent dogfight. It's sad that the best new Star Wars war content was in a video game trailer.
My god can you imagine. Every week every X Wing pilot is ultimately fine, bar some 'are they really dead?' and one second string character buying it to motivate the others.
Which is a shame - because they could be the stats for a squadron in the pacific WW2 from start to end so you have the heavy losses vs zero's but ultimately the tables would start to turn.
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xerxeskingofking wrote: I feel thiers room for a series or show with a greater focus on this aspect, with the main cast being a bunch of "villain protagonists", morally grey type imperial intel agents, working against full on "ends justify the means" extremist rebel group. the show can explore the problems both sides face, the imperials having to recoile their desire for a stable orderly government that just lets people get on with living with the increasingly cartoonishly evil senior leadership, and the rebels can soul search over the questions of whether their noble goals can actually justify the means they are forced to use etc.
Would be great... if only Disney weren't in charge. Hell I would love a look at an imperial army squad excelling, being slated for conversion training to stormtroopers an dhow they cope with stuff. Oh and shoot like they do at the start of a New Hope (because there they are very accurate).
I have been having conversations with some friends for awhile (couple years) where we talk about something that I think applies to why Rogue One is looked at favorably and why so much of Star Wars is so bad.
The difference is a character driven narrative or a plot driven narrative.
Rogue One is very character driven. The story centers on Jin, her traumas, her father and such. And the supporting cast mostly have their own bits. Including Andor and the horrible things he had to do. The monk and his friend and their relationship.
When those characters start dying it carries more narrative weight because this movie wasn't written from a perspective of "Well the plot is blah blah and so we need to move along to blah blah" etc etc...The story is driven by the characters and their motivations and their feelings and their arks even when they all die at the end.
The Mandalorian is also very character driven. You really see the Mando, learn about him, his struggles, and the plot is driven by his loyalties and beliefs and how he learns some grey over the course of the series and the relationships he builds with the kid and his allies.
But Solo? It's all plot driven. It's just hitting the story beats and it's soulless. He needs to meet chewie and then he needs to meet lando and then he needs to win the ship, and we gotta do a kessel run, etc etc...
And thats whats happened in Obi Wan too. What few character moments were there were squished in between the plot so they could get everyone back to their starting points for A New Hope.
For a non-Starwars comparison. Umbrella Academy is an amazing show with some of the most insane dumb gak in the world in it. But the show isn't really ABOUT the end of the world events. It's about the family and their relationships. It's SO character driven and it elevates everything that is happening in that show.
Starwars episodes 7-9... pure plot. And it turns every character into disappointing hollow shells. When they do switch gears to have good little character moments they feel tacked on because they are so unearned.
The prequels are basically the same way. And the clone wars when it's good is good because they focus on the characters first.
Starwars as a whole is so damn plot driven that it's all damn nonsense.
I think there’s also the difference in the Question from which a show or film arises.
Clone Wars remains the best Star Wars there has ever been. It’s frankly astoundingly good. It shows us what the prequels didn’t. Namely, the Clone Wars. But when in the modern day we can go back and watch it, in proper chronological order (you can find that on the internet) and remove some of the more…erm, shall we say…”colourful” side episodes? It really leans into World Building. And it firmly and confidently answers so many questions the odd timescale of the Prequels left us with.
Rogue One is of course the answer to “but how did Leia end up with the plan?”. And it firmly and confidently answers that question, whilst also showing us just how precariously balanced things were 19 years after the birth of The Empire. The Rebel Alliance is disparate. Some want to fight. Some want to fight dirty. Some want to appease. Some want to run. That in itself provides additional context for the Original Trilogy, and just how buggered Palpatine’s plans were after Yavin (mask dropped, no denying his Evil etc)
Rebels. Another superb series. Not necessarily a question commonly asked, but again like Rogue Ones shows the origins of The Rebel Alliance specifically. Because where you have a heavy handed authoritarian regime, you’re always going to have folk fighting back against it - but to weld those fighters into a largely cohesive whole is tricky, let alone one with the organisation, intel and equipment to be more than an annoyance.
Solo. Now I enjoyed this movie. But the core question it answered just…isn’t particularly interesting. It’s “what’s the Kessel Run, and isn’t a parsec a unit of distance not time?”. Those aren’t really plot questions, but one of Geography (Stellography?) and In-Universe Physics. I mean, to us in the real world a Parsec is a unit of distance. But then, in the real world a Biscuit is a lovely thing to have with a nice cuppa, but also a delicious, buttery flaky cake type roll thing. Both parts of that question could and probably were answered in written canon for those that interested.
The Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett are intertwined in the question they answer. And that question is of quite large scope - what the hell happened after Endor? Those answers are ongoing, so I shan’t sum up. I like what I see though, but do accept Boba could’ve been tightened up.
Obi-Wan Kenobi? Well. I guess the main question after Episode III is “how did Kenobi know Vader was Anakin? For all intents and purposes he left him to die on Mustafar with his eyes gouged out,
And his elbows broken.
To have his kneecaps split
And his body burned away,
And his limbs all hacked and mangled
Brave Sir Anakin
His head smashed in
And his heart cut out
And his liver removed
And his bowls unplugged
And his nostrils raped
And his bottom burnt off
And his penis well I’m sure you get the point.
And that question is answered. And it was one needing an answer for A New Hope to make sense. Did it need the runtime it got to be answered? Debatable. Other than one particularly shonky episode (you know the one I mean), it was a decent watch. New planets (yay!) Everyman not set against The Empire (yay!), new ship designs (yay!) and an incredibly impressive, often scene stealing Ickleia (yay!). But could’ve been trimmed quite nicely.
Resistance? I’ll need to watch that again. I didn’t hate its stories, characters or plots, im just not a fan of the artistic stylings.
Bad Batch? “What happened to the Clones after Order 66?”. A question mostly begged by Clone Wars, which did such a stellar job of showing the Clones themselves to be individuals. Answered with style and aplomb, and I look forward to Season 2.
Ahsoka? Well…..we can reasonably infer this is driven by the “what happened to Ezra and Thrawn?” from her star turn in Mando.
When you’ve got an Interesting Question, we seem to get an Interesting Show or Film.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Clone Wars remains the best Star Wars there has ever been. It’s frankly astoundingly good. It shows us what the prequels didn’t. Namely, the Clone Wars. But when in the modern day we can go back and watch it, in proper chronological order (you can find that on the internet) and remove some of the more…erm, shall we say…”colourful” side episodes? It really leans into World Building. And it firmly and confidently answers so many questions the odd timescale of the Prequels left us with.
I love Clone Wars, and after Luke and Vader, Ahsoka is my fav SW character (and my account icon on D+! ), but let's not pretend that Clone Wars didn't have significant tonal problems for its first three years.
Seasons 4 and 5 were dark, but prior to that the show was essentially schizophrenic in the way it jumped between hard hitting stories and crazy kids slapstick (and I'm not just talking about the Jar Jar episodes). And the absolute nadir of the show was the poison tea episode on Mandalor. Oh boy that was stupid...
Shows don't always hit the ground running (Stargate: Atlantis and The Flash are two examples of shows that did), and it is perfectly normal for a show to take a season to find its feet. Clone Wars, chronological issues aside, took quite a bit longer (a side effect of the long animation process?) and it really shows in those first 3 season.
And season 7 was terrible. The Bad Batch arc and the second arc are Grade A awful. Thank the Maker for the Siege of Mandalor (and for The Bad Batch show being far better than it has any right to be, given their introduction).
Bobthehero wrote: This is meant to be good? The protag litteraly standing up in the open with about fifteen or so Stormtroopers just... Holy gak, this is terrible
Rebels is a show I couldn't stand, and gave up after a few episodes. Of particular disdain were the two bumbling Imperial Officers that I called Bulk and Skull after the idiot bullies from Power Rangers. They were offensively awful.
A while went by and people kept saying that Rebels was great, and I couldn't figure out why. They said that everything kind of comes together as soon as Tarkin arrives. Ok...
Still sceptical, I started watching from where I left off. Tarkin did show up, things did improve, and then the Grand Inquisitor showed up and literally decapitated Bulk and Skull, almost as if the writers knew that these two characters weren't working and chose to get rid of them in the most decisive way possible.
And things improved from thereon out, and overall it was a great show that gave us a wonderful follow-up to The Clone Wars, and gave us more Ahsoka, and the Twilight of the Apprentice episode (and it's very cool resolution later on).
The only minor hiccup with the show occurred during the 5th and final season. It's when the "Disney" side of things started to show through and the main characters stopped killing their adversaries, instead using stun blasts, disarmament (shooting/lightsaber-ing weapons) or, in some cases, literally bonking two heads together to incapacitate foes. Enemies still died, but they were always environmental kills or incidental kills (they deactivate a platform, and people fall to their deaths, someone falls into a furnace rather than being killed by Ezra, and so on).
This same Disneyfication infected the final season of Clone Wars as well, sadly, as we see a simply incredible sequence of Ahsoka during the aerial assault of Mandalor, flying from transport to transport, taking out enemy Mandalorians along the way... except she doesn't directly kill anyone, using her twin sabres only to disarm, and - like with Rebels - jumping away as people fall to their deaths due to indirect methods. It was very distracting. The various mooks and goons can kill one another (Clone Troopers, Droids, faceless Mandos, bad guys), but the good guys can only stun or disarm except in very specific circumstances (ie. killing droids).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Clone Wars remains the best Star Wars there has ever been. It’s frankly astoundingly good. It shows us what the prequels didn’t. Namely, the Clone Wars. But when in the modern day we can go back and watch it, in proper chronological order (you can find that on the internet) and remove some of the more…erm, shall we say…”colourful” side episodes? It really leans into World Building. And it firmly and confidently answers so many questions the odd timescale of the Prequels left us with.
I love Clone Wars, and after Luke and Vader, Ahsoka is my fav SW character (and my account icon on D+! ), but let's not pretend that Clone Wars didn't have significant tonal problems for its first three years.
Seasons 4 and 5 were dark, but prior to that the show was essentially schizophrenic in the way it jumped between hard hitting stories and crazy kids slapstick (and I'm not just talking about the Jar Jar episodes). And the absolute nadir of the show was the poison tea episode on Mandalor. Oh boy that was stupid...
Shows don't always hit the ground running (Stargate: Atlantis and The Flash are two examples of shows that did), and it is perfectly normal for a show to take a season to find its feet. Clone Wars, chronological issues aside, took quite a bit longer (a side effect of the long animation process?) and it really shows in those first 3 season.
And season 7 was terrible. The Bad Batch arc and the second arc are Grade A awful. Thank the Maker for the Siege of Mandalor (and for The Bad Batch show being far better than it has any right to be, given their introduction).
Bobthehero wrote: This is meant to be good? The protag litteraly standing up in the open with about fifteen or so Stormtroopers just... Holy gak, this is terrible
Rebels is a show I couldn't stand, and gave up after a few episodes. Of particular disdain were the two bumbling Imperial Officers that I called Bulk and Skull after the idiot bullies from Power Rangers. They were offensively awful.
A while went by and people kept saying that Rebels was great, and I couldn't figure out why. They said that everything kind of comes together as soon as Tarkin arrives. Ok...
Still sceptical, I started watching from where I left off. Tarkin did show up, things did improve, and then the Grand Inquisitor showed up and literally decapitated Bulk and Skull, almost as if the writers knew that these two characters weren't working and chose to get rid of them in the most decisive way possible.
And things improved from thereon out, and overall it was a great show that gave us a wonderful follow-up to The Clone Wars, and gave us more Ahsoka, and the Twilight of the Apprentice episode (and it's very cool resolution later on).
The only minor hiccup with the show occurred during the 5th and final season. It's when the "Disney" side of things started to show through and the main characters stopped killing their adversaries, instead using stun blasts, disarmament (shooting/lightsaber-ing weapons) or, in some cases, literally bonking two heads together to incapacitate foes. Enemies still died, but they were always environmental kills or incidental kills (they deactivate a platform, and people fall to their deaths, someone falls into a furnace rather than being killed by Ezra, and so on).
This same Disneyfication infected the final season of Clone Wars as well, sadly, as we see a simply incredible sequence of Ahsoka during the aerial assault of Mandalor, flying from transport to transport, taking out enemy Mandalorians along the way... except she doesn't directly kill anyone, using her twin sabres only to disarm, and - like with Rebels - jumping away as people fall to their deaths due to indirect methods. It was very distracting. The various mooks and goons can kill one another (Clone Troopers, Droids, faceless Mandos, bad guys), but the good guys can only stun or disarm except in very specific circumstances (ie. killing droids).
Yeah I noticed that. It's very bizarre to see lightsaber wielding mystics in an active battle basically not utilize the whole point of their weapon, which is effectively a borderline 1-hit KO against most people that aren't named characters. It harkens back to how Wolverine is depicted in the movies before Logan, where he would only ever use his claws to cut inanimate objects or robots/weapons, but he would just clothesline everyone else instead. It's really annoying when heroes have a lethal weapon and censors basically force them to either not utilize it or somehow it's nerfed. God forbid kids see death considering they probably have been oversaturated with it through video games already.
This is meant to be good? The protag litteraly standing up in the open with about fifteen or so Stormtroopers just... Holy gak, this is terrible
HBMC covers it pretty well, but I'll add that the good things about Rebels are character interactions, a great cast of main characters, a depiction of how a rebellion against the Empire starts and escalates, and how rebels may be united in their goal but may not see eye to eye on how to best get there.
As is so often the case with Star Wars, it gets dodgy once Stormtroopers start shooting. Rebels is by no means an exception to that, but has many rewarding moments if you can bring yourself to overlook that.
All of that in my opinion of course.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And season 7 was terrible. The Bad Batch arc and the second arc are Grade A awful.
I like Trace and Rafa, and their interaction with Ahsoka. The second arc of season 7 rates among my favorite Clone Wars arcs.
I can't really overlook the fact that one of the show's main character should've died to early and only lived because of the sheer incomptence of the bad guys. There comes a point where it's a problem for the universe you're trying to set and constantly going ''Ah ah Stormtrooper can't shoot, it's funny'' just gnaws at it.
Bobthehero wrote: I can't really overlook the fact that one of the show's main character should've died to early and only lived because of the sheer incomptence of the bad guys. There comes a point where it's a problem for the universe you're trying to set and constantly going ''Ah ah Stormtrooper can't shoot, it's funny'' just gnaws at it.
The last episode of Book of Boba Fett and second last of Obi-Wan gave me similar feelings.
Geifer wrote: I like Trace and Rafa, and their interaction with Ahsoka. The second arc of season 7 rates among my favorite Clone Wars arcs.
There was an entire episode of that arc where they start off captured, escape, run around for a bit, and end the episode right where they started. It was a waste of rendering time.
And I liked Trace and Rafa more when they showed up in Bad Batch.
Bobthehero wrote: I can't really overlook the fact that one of the show's main character should've died to early and only lived because of the sheer incomptence of the bad guys. There comes a point where it's a problem for the universe you're trying to set and constantly going ''Ah ah Stormtrooper can't shoot, it's funny'' just gnaws at it.
The last episode of Book of Boba Fett and second last of Obi-Wan gave me similar feelings.
Book of Boba was worse, in my opinion. They had disposable hillbillies for the bad guys to shoot up and not look quite as bad, but even those guys had impenetrable plot armor.
Geifer wrote: I like Trace and Rafa, and their interaction with Ahsoka. The second arc of season 7 rates among my favorite Clone Wars arcs.
There was an entire episode of that arc where they start off captured, escape, run around for a bit, and end the episode right where they started. It was a waste of rendering time.
And I liked Trace and Rafa more when they showed up in Bad Batch.
I not opposed to seeing more of them and I hope they come back in season 2, but their Clone Wars episodes had Ahsoka, and it's a scientifically proven fact that Ahsoka makes everything 108% better.
But on the third episode of that arc, how could I begrudge the bad guys actually catching the good guys again? Like, yeah, the bad guys showed some competence. I rarely miss a chance to complain about how Stormtroopers are treated on screen, so I'll make damn sure I give credit to scenes that make them or anyone else stricken with the same fate look good.
So sure, the gang ends up where they started, but they progressed their relationship in the process and got Bo-Katan to notice them. I wouldn't call an episode that has character development, plot advancement and reasonably capable bad guys a waste.
I'm excited by the sets and worlds. Looks like they finally put some effort in beyond the same 3x5 patch of desert or weird crap half-shrouded in darkness.
The ground level rebellion and bits of politics look pretty good, too. Just hope it spares the cameos and cults...
Because I wasn’t sure, the release has been pushed back a wee bit. Originally scheduled to have a two episode premiere 31 August, it’s now a couple of weeks later with a triple bill launch.
So very much looking forward to this. I don’t mind some Big Names having a cameo. Mon Mothma and Saw Gerrera both make sense, given their place in the history of the Rebellion.
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Gert wrote: That looks pretty neat. I love the transitional phase we see with the Empire replacing the tools of the Republic with those of the Empire.
Agreed. I mean, Clone Wars, Bad Batch and Rebels absolutely knocked it out of the park with colouring in the lesser seen bits, not to mention adding in new and interesting worlds. To see Andor at least promising much the same is very encouraging.
Then again, so did Obi-Wan, and that show made me question whether Star Wars was every actually good to begin with, or whether the parts that are good are just flukes.
Yeah, I don't have high hopes for Andor because I feel that it'll come across the same issue across most of SW media now, the Empire is depicted as impossibly incompetent and there won't be a compelling villain to hold the story together, especially for a spy-thriller type story where if it isn't campy, it has to show an enemy worth being afraid of to keep the tension.
After the Obi-Wan show managed to ruin even Aunt Beru's character, there can't be many more OT charcaters left to violate in Andor, right? Right..?
*Nervous glaces in Mon Mothma*
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, I don't have high hopes for Andor because I feel that it'll come across the same issue across most of SW media now, the Empire is depicted as impossibly incompetent and there won't be a compelling villain to hold the story together, especially for a spy-thriller type story where if it isn't campy, it has to show an enemy worth being afraid of to keep the tension.
I'm actually pretty positive about Andor, except for the part where they postponed release by three weeks, but I think this is spot on. The first thing I thought when I saw the Death Troopers was how I'm looking forward to them failing extra hard as befits one of the most elite varieties of Stormtroopers. Conditioning is a terrible thing.
But new worlds, pretty sets, eye candy, and spy themes at least look promising enough to overlook the inevitable Imperial incompetence.
However, being unreasonably optimistic, maybe, just maybe they're not leaning so hard into it because they want to produce something more in theme with Rogue One. You know, the movie where all the heroes die in the end and the Empire was marginally less incompetent than usual.
More positivity, the people that produced Obi Wan may have been too busy producing Obi Wan to screw up Andor at the same time, so another glimmer of hope.
I am looking forward to seeing if and how Mon Mothma and Saw Gerrera interact in the show. That was a fun part of Rebels and I want more of it.
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, I don't have high hopes for Andor because I feel that it'll come across the same issue across most of SW media now, the Empire is depicted as impossibly incompetent and there won't be a compelling villain to hold the story together, especially for a spy-thriller type story where if it isn't campy, it has to show an enemy worth being afraid of to keep the tension.
You got that right, based on every depections of the Empire since Rogue One, Andor is DOA for me.
Sorry, are we talking about the Empire being portrayed as incompetent? The same Empire that lost its super important battle station on its (as of then) second mission? The Empire that failed to capture any member of Rebel command at Hoth and let almost everyone escape? The Empire that consistently lost to freighters and fighters that it outclassed at almost every opportunity? The Empire that lost the Galactic Civil War? That Empire?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Templin Institute just pointed out this from the Andor trailer:
It was still a dangerous Empire, where its foot soldiers and pilots were threats to the good guys who didn't have plot. Lately it's been almost comedic how utterly incapable it is at the moment.
I really, [i]really[i/] hope that young girl in the trailer isn't supposed to be Jyn (or if she is, it's kept as a completely separate storyline), because otherwise that would really undermine their relationship in Rogue One.
However, given the Obi-Wan & Leia show, I expect to be disappointed. Otherwise, I'm liking the look of this and I really hope they can keep the same tone as Rogue One.
Bobthehero wrote: It was still a dangerous Empire, where its foot soldiers and pilots were threats to the good guys who didn't have plot. Lately it's been almost comedic how utterly incapable it is at the moment.
Exactly. Yeah, the main characters don't die unless required by the plot because that's what main characters do but if you aren't a main character the Empire is very much a threat. The very first scene in Star Wars is the rebel ship getting run down and boarded with all its crew being killed or captured, rebels get butchered by the hundreds at Hoth, every space battle has rebel fighters being blown away by TIEs and only a handful of rebels surviving, etc. The feeling you get from it is that the main characters are surviving because they're incredible badasses, not because the enemy is a bunch of 10 year olds LARPing as bad guys. Now apparently the only way even a minor background character can die is an angry woman throwing a box at him.
Bobthehero wrote: It was still a dangerous Empire, where its foot soldiers and pilots were threats to the good guys who didn't have plot. Lately it's been almost comedic how utterly incapable it is at the moment.
Exactly. Yeah, the main characters don't die unless required by the plot because that's what main characters do but if you aren't a main character the Empire is very much a threat. The very first scene in Star Wars is the rebel ship getting run down and boarded with all its crew being killed or captured, rebels get butchered by the hundreds at Hoth, every space battle has rebel fighters being blown away by TIEs and only a handful of rebels surviving, etc. The feeling you get from it is that the main characters are surviving because they're incredible badasses, not because the enemy is a bunch of 10 year olds LARPing as bad guys. Now apparently the only way even a minor background character can die is an angry woman throwing a box at him.
There are deaths of the style of the crew of the Tantive IV all the time; we just mentally filter them out as we get older and a little more cynical to the ways of storytelling. I'm trying to think of signficant characters that are killed by the empire over the entire trilogy and honestly all I can think of is like.... Owen and Beru? Ben, technically?
Gert wrote: Sorry, are we talking about the Empire being portrayed as incompetent? The same Empire that lost its super important battle station on its (as of then) second mission? The Empire that failed to capture any member of Rebel command at Hoth and let almost everyone escape? The Empire that consistently lost to freighters and fighters that it outclassed at almost every opportunity? The Empire that lost the Galactic Civil War? That Empire?
Yes? I don't see how that changes my point. When SW first came out and was limited to mainly the original trilogy, the Empire was still new and intimidating at least from an aesthetic standpoint and we didn't have the entire picture of how the Empire came to be and held power for the time it did (this only really started happening once the EU machine started rolling with books/comics and the prequels were being made). At the time it was mostly centered around Luke and his relationship with Vader, given the Hero's Journey was a big part of the overarching story, which meant that what little we did see of the Empire was mostly window dressing for the most part. For me, it was RoTJ where the Empire being a bunch of mooks started kicking in, since seeing Ewoks kill Stormtroopers rather than the originally planned Wookies was jarring. Now I'm willing to forgive some of this at the beginning because I get a lot of what Star Wars was about is mainly it being a franchise to sell things, and Ewoks are a much more marketable item than Wookies, but if you're now establishing a clear sense of "canon" like Disney is versus the Wild West of SWEU content that could range to terrible fanfiction to interesting worldbuilding, you expect at least some type of cohesiveness of addressing the Empire as being held back by internal power struggles by Moffs trying to undermine one another in front of the Emperor, thereby preventing a unified approach against the rebellion like most totalitarian regimes, rather than just being useless in general.
Grimskul wrote: For me, it was RoTJ where the Empire being a bunch of mooks started kicking in, since seeing Ewoks kill Stormtroopers rather than the originally planned Wookies was jarring.
I just want to note here that even with the ewoks it wasn't that bad yet. Yeah, they're kind of silly and played for laughs a bit but it's made very clear that after the initial surprise of the ambush the stormtroopers quickly recover and start gunning down ewoks. The battle is won by heroes doing hero things and if you aren't a hero you have a high chance of ending up dead if you go up against the Empire. And the simultaneous space battle is played completely straight. Rebel fighters are casually blown away by TIEs, rebel battleships are one-shotted by the death star as nothing more than emotional manipulation against Luke, etc. By the end of the battle the rebels are in desperation mode, flying into certain death to buy a little more time for a miracle to happen. So yeah, you can see the origins of the problem, but even in ROTJ they had the sense to not let it take over entirely.
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Voss wrote: Sure it does. That's where the cavalry charge comes from.
Exhibit #34590 in "why the sequels are non-canon fanfiction".
I don't think it's an Empire problem. It's an overall current SW problem.
Go and watch the (abysmal) finale for Book of Boba Fett. The Pikes only manage to kill two of the faceless villagers (the same one, actually, as that extra dies twice!). Their giant huge feth off mega-destroyer droids hit nothing but the Rancor (who just gets angrier) all episode. The droids' weapons can't even penetrate the wall the villagers spend half the episode hiding behind. The only time the main characters get hit is when the enemy nails them right on their completely invincible armour. Hell, the only halfway effective shot fired by the bad guys was Cad Bane from the previous episode, and he only managed to kill one of his two targets.
It's one thing to joke about Stormtrooper accuracy being a cliche. It's another altogether when you realise that all bad guys seem incapable of doing anything in a firefight.
For those saying the Empire keeps getting portrayed as incompetent, have you watched Rebels? It perfectly shows the struggles of proper officers like Tarkin, Kallus, Pryce, and Thrawn against those who are in it for the fun of abusing people or for personal glory. Arrogance is the hallmark of the Empire, it's why the Navy never fully adapted to anti-Rebel tactics.
But more to the point, have you considered that the Empire is incompetent because it's a fascist system where people get promoted by being sycophants or thugs and are kept in line out of fear? There will be some that perform despite the system (Veers, Thrawn, Piett) and there will be many more who thrive under the poor management and leadership the Empire is based on (Ozzle, Aresko, Grint, Constantine). The Empire loses the Galactic Civil War because the officers and politicians believe that they will always win, despite evidence to the contrary. They rely on fear and violence to keep people in line but don't adapt when fear isn't enough and violence doesn't quell the uprisings.
Almost like it's telling you that fascist authoritarian systems are doomed to fail.
Besides, my argument, at least, has nothing to do with fascism or politics or whatever, it's purely that I am more threatened by a bunch of day one recruits who get panic attacks when a sergeant shouts at them to change clothes fast than I am by the Empire footsoldiers, and having ridiculously incompetent enemies in a series ruins it overall, because the heroes accomplished nothing, spent no efforts and never overcame any sorts of odds, all they did was fight against some dumbasses who would miss the entire planet if their aimed at their feet. It makes the universe poorer and totally unenjoyable.
Voss wrote: 'Don't worry about fascism, its incompetent and doomed to fail' is a terrible message.
Take your enemies seriously.
I'd argue the message is "Authoritarianism leads to failure and inevitably puts incompetent sycophants in power".
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Bobthehero wrote: Besides, my argument, at least, has nothing to do with fascism or politics or whatever, it's purely that I am more threatened by a bunch of day one recruits who get panic attacks when a sergeant shouts at them to change clothes fast than I am by the Empire footsoldiers, and having ridiculously incompetent enemies in a series ruins it overall, because the heroes accomplished nothing, spent no efforts and never overcame any sorts of odds, all they did was fight against some dumbasses who would miss the entire planet if their aimed at their feet. It makes the universe poorer and totally unenjoyable.
Your argument is that the Empire has been made out to be incompetent only after Rogue One which is utter tosh.
The Empire has one victory in ANH, a couple in Empire and then just flat out loses entirely in RotJ. Oh yeah the Rebels lose a lot of fighters during the attack on the Death Star and in return the Empire loses the Death Star.
They lose, yes, bad guys gotta lose after all, but the good guys suffer losses, as well, the new shows don't have that, and Rebels has the worst scene of all with that jedi dude standing in the open and the Stormtroopers just... miss him for 2-3 seconds and then get told to hold fire. It's fething awful, far worse than the Ewoks.
Like, I know Luke's going to blow up the Death Star in ANH, but every time I rewatch the end, I always get the tension of how much danger he's in. With how nearly everyone arounds him die.
Gert wrote: Almost like it's telling you that fascist authoritarian systems are doomed to fail.
Which is why all the best WWII movies show the Nazis as incompetent clowns who can't hit anything and are rounded up by the heroes to be put in time out to learn from their mistakes.
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Bobthehero wrote: Like, I know Luke's going to blow up the Death Star in ANH, but every time I rewatch the end, I always get the tension of how much danger he's in. With how nearly everyone arounds him die.
Exactly. One of Luke's wingmen is damaged and has to break off, his childhood best friend dies to buy him a few seconds longer to get the shot off, his droid co-pilot is killed, and Vader has a lock on him with his finger about to hit the trigger. Yeah, he's the protagonist and the heroes have to find a way to win in the end, but the Empire has clearly pushed him to the edge and only Han's change of heart saves him and allows him to destroy the death star. And that's just the final trench run. Prior to that two previous attempts end with all three ships shot down, multiple rebels die in the dogfight above the trench, and even Luke takes a near-fatal hit. There's never a point where you think "nah, these guys aren't in any danger".
Voss wrote: 'Don't worry about fascism, its incompetent and doomed to fail' is a terrible message.
Take your enemies seriously.
I'd argue the message is "Authoritarianism leads to failure and inevitably puts incompetent sycophants in power".
Exactly. You're assuming the that incompetence is inevitable and such governments always fail. The implication there is that no action is necessary- it will fall of its own accord. That's a terrible assumption and message.
Voss wrote: 'Don't worry about fascism, its incompetent and doomed to fail' is a terrible message.
Take your enemies seriously.
I'd argue the message is "Authoritarianism leads to failure and inevitably puts incompetent sycophants in power".
Exactly. You're assuming the that incompetence is inevitable and such governments always fail. The implication there is that no action is necessary- it will fall of its own accord. That's a terrible assumption and message.
Legit. Why would you want to promote the idea of complacency and that it doesn't require any real effort for change to happen against evil regimes?
Gert wrote: Almost like it's telling you that fascist authoritarian systems are doomed to fail.
Which is why all the best WWII movies show the Nazis as incompetent clowns who can't hit anything and are rounded up by the heroes to be put in time out to learn from their mistakes.
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Bobthehero wrote: Like, I know Luke's going to blow up the Death Star in ANH, but every time I rewatch the end, I always get the tension of how much danger he's in. With how nearly everyone arounds him die.
Exactly. One of Luke's wingmen is damaged and has to break off, his childhood best friend dies to buy him a few seconds longer to get the shot off, his droid co-pilot is killed, and Vader has a lock on him with his finger about to hit the trigger. Yeah, he's the protagonist and the heroes have to find a way to win in the end, but the Empire has clearly pushed him to the edge and only Han's change of heart saves him and allows him to destroy the death star. And that's just the final trench run. Prior to that two previous attempts end with all three ships shot down, multiple rebels die in the dogfight above the trench, and even Luke takes a near-fatal hit. There's never a point where you think "nah, these guys aren't in any danger".
Not true at all. 7 year old me, sitting there in that theater all those years ago, had no doubt that the main characters would survive*. I knew Luke wasn't going to get shot down. The only question was how was he going to get out of this? But it was pretty easy for 7 year old me to guess that Han & Chewie would ride in & save the day.....
People with no name? Random fighter pilots? Misc people like Luke's aunt & uncle? Oh yeah, bunches them will die. But not the main characters.
How did I know this? Because that's how the old Flash Gordon & Buck Roger's serials + who knows how many Westerns I'd seen by that point worked.
*I think Ben getting cut down sorta surprised me.
But it was pretty well telegraphed that he wasn't really going to make it.
ccs wrote: 7 year old me, sitting there in that theater all those years ago, had no doubt that the main characters would survive*.
Well yes, because that's true of almost every movie. The point is that if you set aside out-of-universe meta knowledge about things like "the main character always survives" it's a high-tension moment where the movie is clearly showing the hero in desperation mode, moments from joining everyone else in death and failure. Compare that to the Rebels clip posted earlier. There's no tension, the shots are all missing, and the characters don't even seem to care that they're being "shot at". And then the main character casually stands up in front of the stormtroopers at point blank range and calmly walks towards them without taking a single hit.
Gert wrote: For those saying the Empire keeps getting portrayed as incompetent, have you watched Rebels?
It perfectly shows the struggles of proper officers like Tarkin, Kallus, Pryce, and Thrawn against those who are in it for the fun of abusing people or for personal glory. Arrogance is the hallmark of the Empire, it's why the Navy never fully adapted to anti-Rebel tactics.
But more to the point, have you considered that the Empire is incompetent because it's a fascist system where people get promoted by being sycophants or thugs and are kept in line out of fear? There will be some that perform despite the system (Veers, Thrawn, Piett) and there will be many more who thrive under the poor management and leadership the Empire is based on (Ozzle, Aresko, Grint, Constantine). The Empire loses the Galactic Civil War because the officers and politicians believe that they will always win, despite evidence to the contrary. They rely on fear and violence to keep people in line but don't adapt when fear isn't enough and violence doesn't quell the uprisings.
Almost like it's telling you that fascist authoritarian systems are doomed to fail.
^^^ This guy gets it.
However, that doesn't mean they will not do a heckuva lot of damage and destruction in the process, and last a long, long time.
The Emperor doesn’t want ambitious folk too near him. He wants toadies, lick spittles and crawly little bumlicks who rely on him for promotion. That gives him greater control, relatively little upper echelon conflict (at least aimed at him. The rest can stab each other in the back for all he cares) and no-one to really oppose his plans.
Consider his decision to develop and fund The Death Star and Super Star Destroyers over projects like the (demonstrably far more valuable against the Rebellion’s preferred tactics) TIE Defender.
Rebels and Rogue One show us various parties within The Empire squabbling over project funding. That is by design, not incompetence.
I mean….without providing specific examples, look at Real World Totalitarian States. Lord knows there’s enough of them. Soon as the Head Honcho holding it altogether snuffs it? Chaos ensues as those in high positions, often raised up solely for nepotism, singularly fail to replicate their predecessor’s successes.
ccs wrote: 7 year old me, sitting there in that theater all those years ago, had no doubt that the main characters would survive*.
Well yes, because that's true of almost every movie. The point is that if you set aside out-of-universe meta knowledge about things like "the main character always survives" it's a high-tension moment where the movie is clearly showing the hero in desperation mode, moments from joining everyone else in death and failure. Compare that to the Rebels clip posted earlier. There's no tension, the shots are all missing, and the characters don't even seem to care that they're being "shot at". And then the main character casually stands up in front of the stormtroopers at point blank range and calmly walks towards them without taking a single hit.
Kid’s Show Demonstrates Heroes With Ridiculous Plot Armour.
To me, simple focus on good ultimately prevailing over evil is one of the few things that raise Star Wars up in our "post-modern" age of relativism and anti-heroes.
Or at least make it volcanic sand or magma like Mustafar.
No, no. I'm drawing a line. They have a galaxy full of livable planets. People in the SW universe need to live on planets that are relatively safe and reasonable for their species. No endless deserts, no artic, no constantly storm-tossed oceans, just nice, friendly and temperate. I know we've had glimpses from time to time over the years, but seriously. Have a nice mid-sized city near a river, farms in the hinterland and a open forest on the horizon. Someplace people would actually live.
This is the perfect series to see people with unfortunately boring lives. 36 hour a week office job, 2.5 kids and some sort of genespliced cat-dog hybrid as a pet. Settled down with the family, just living their lives.
Even if only to have it torn apart by the cruel hand of the Empire so we can see what pushes normal people to a galaxy-scale Rebellion, rather than keeping their heads down and hoping It Won't Happen Here.
Plot Twist: Everything we've seen is from the first episode. At the end of the first episode, as he's trying to escape, Cassian Andor has to make an emergency hyperspace jump and crash lands on...
... Tatooine!
He then gets involved in the rough'n'tumble goings on of a small local tavern known as 'The Volume', and everything takes place within this "volume" for the remainder of the series.
Not true at all. 7 year old me, sitting there in that theater all those years ago, had no doubt that the main characters would survive*. I knew Luke wasn't going to get shot down. The only question was how was he going to get out of this? But it was pretty easy for 7 year old me to guess that Han & Chewie would ride in & save the day.....
People with no name? Random fighter pilots? Misc people like Luke's aunt & uncle? Oh yeah, bunches them will die. But not the main characters.
How did I know this? Because that's how the old Flash Gordon & Buck Roger's serials + who knows how many Westerns I'd seen by that point worked.
*I think Ben getting cut down sorta surprised me.
But it was pretty well telegraphed that he wasn't really going to make it.
If requirement for bad guys not be incompetent is for heroes die and bad guys win...well all bad guys are always going to be incompetent. Nobody can make movie where bad guys AREN'T incompetent because guess what? Movies never end with bad guys winning.
Easy E wrote: To me, simple focus on good ultimately prevailing over evil is one of the few things that raise Star Wars up in our "post-modern" age of relativism and anti-heroes.
This guy gets it. Star Wars is uncomplicated, that's part of it's charm, in a world where it seems everything has to be all confusing etc. SW is unapoogeticly uncomplicated.
Or at least make it volcanic sand or magma like Mustafar.
No, no. I'm drawing a line. They have a galaxy full of livable planets. People in the SW universe need to live on planets that are relatively safe and reasonable for their species. No endless deserts, no artic, no constantly storm-tossed oceans, just nice, friendly and temperate. I know we've had glimpses from time to time over the years, but seriously. Have a nice mid-sized city near a river, farms in the hinterland and a open forest on the horizon. Someplace people would actually live.
This is the perfect series to see people with unfortunately boring lives. 36 hour a week office job, 2.5 kids and some sort of genespliced cat-dog hybrid as a pet. Settled down with the family, just living their lives.
Even if only to have it torn apart by the cruel hand of the Empire so we can see what pushes normal people to a galaxy-scale Rebellion, rather than keeping their heads down and hoping It Won't Happen Here.
I wouldn't object to seeing the sand of the tropical beaches on Glee Anselm. One of my favorite parts of Rogue One is Scarif. It just looks pretty.
Otherwise agreed. I think the show would also benefit from leaving behind the Outer Rim for the most part. If you're going to spy somewhere, spy where there's interesting stuff to be learned.
Easy E wrote: To me, simple focus on good ultimately prevailing over evil is one of the few things that raise Star Wars up in our "post-modern" age of relativism and anti-heroes.
This guy gets it. Star Wars is uncomplicated, that's part of it's charm, in a world where it seems everything has to be all confusing etc. SW is unapoogeticly uncomplicated.
Man, I'm glad Han didn't shoot first and Luke didn't murder those two Gamorreans that inconvenienced him. I too prefer my Star Wars firmly black and white and unapologetically uncomplicated.
Geifer wrote: Man, I'm glad Han didn't shoot first and Luke didn't murder those two Gamorreans that inconvenienced him. I too prefer my Star Wars firmly black and white and unapologetically uncomplicated.
But stormtroopers are literally faceless! Not people!
).
