Well, they could have just walked around. The mess of space coal didn't get larger after Vader spilled it. The camera just zoomed in so close that the Stormtroopers couldn't see that they could just walk past it five meters to their right.
Or Vader could have snuffed it out via the Force like he did only a minute earlier.
Or he could have lifted Obi Wan up with the Force and brought him across, possibly even at a safe height.
Best to assume he's bored sitting around Mustafar all day. He can finally play with his best buddy again and he's not in a hurry to end it. Come on, let the guy have some fun.
Spoiler:
I think that Vader was a bit disappointed by Obi-Wan's performance. I think Vader made it abundantly clear he wants revenge on his master more than he needs air to breathe. Beating up is broken and scared former master isn't exactly what he desires. He wants to beat the Obi-Wan who actually defeated him. Vader wasn't scared, surprised or even trying to do anything when Obi-Wan was rescued. My bet is that he will question 3rd Sister to know how she got Obi-Wan out of his hiding place and will use Leia to try and shake his nemesis out of his torpor and get him back into high gear. I suppose, Qui-Gon will be important for that and that Vader will be defeated again. Making the line from a New Hope sound more important.
Inquisition Lady wants Obi-Wan so she can get to Vader so she can try to kill Vader.
My idea;
-She's one of the younglings from the opening and blames Anakin for the Jedi Purge.
-She blames Obi-wan for training Anakin when Jedi tradition said he shouldn't have been trained at all (the opening scrawl draws an odd amount of attention to this)
-She wants to kill Anakin and get back at Obi-Wan so she's hunting Obi-Wan so she can use him to get to Anakin.
Inquisition Lady wants Obi-Wan so she can get to Vader so she can try to kill Vader.
My idea;
-She's one of the younglings from the opening and blames Anakin for the Jedi Purge.
-She blames Obi-wan for training Anakin when Jedi tradition said he shouldn't have been trained at all (the opening scrawl draws an odd amount of attention to this)
-She wants to kill Anakin and get back at Obi-Wan so she's hunting Obi-Wan so she can use him to get to Anakin.
How the feth did Reva get to the end of the tunnel?
Spoiler:
I assume Force Intuition/brief off-screen interrogation, then a speeder to the other end?
I’m glad they went down the series route for Kenobi. So far nothing feels wasted to me, but if it was squelched down to a cinema friendly time I don’t think we’d get the same outcome.
And someone please explain the odd focus on
Spoiler:
Quinlan Voss?
He shows up in Clone Wars for a bit, and in the wrap up novel where Asajj Ventress, one of the most interesting and compelling characters from Clone Wars, is killed off to provide him with mangst. But, I don’t recall him really doing much, beyond being a “oh hey isn’t he in the wider canon?”
I enjoyed ep 3, and liked how it built on episodes 1 and 2. They feel better now in the context of an older, slower Ben creaking out of his exile and trauma.
My one complaint about all the detail being filled in between films is the same for all media franchises - it makes a Republic of a million worlds feel small and samey. No bigger than the county I live in.
For the Brits: although the thought of Ben hiding out in space-Skegness for 20 years does tickle me.
Can't say I like any of the prequel films, but the Clone Wars era certainly has its charms now. I always thought the films had a lot of good ideas, they're just executed terribly.
Inquisition Lady wants Obi-Wan so she can get to Vader so she can try to kill Vader.
My idea;
-She's one of the younglings from the opening and blames Anakin for the Jedi Purge.
-She blames Obi-wan for training Anakin when Jedi tradition said he shouldn't have been trained at all (the opening scrawl draws an odd amount of attention to this)
-She wants to kill Anakin and get back at Obi-Wan so she's hunting Obi-Wan so she can use him to get to Anakin.
Now to see if I'm right.
I think you might be heavily unto something.
Yep. I think it's already established that
Spoiler:
the Inquisitors are corrupted force sensitives, including former padawans. Whether she's out to take down Vader is a different issue. That would sound more like a Sith apprentice than an Inquisitor. Then again, maybe that's the promotion she's bucking for.
Episode 3 down, felt a bit filler and the whole Voss thing reminded me how much better a baddie Asajj could have been than 3rd sister who's managing to plank it up to a level our Diaz would be proud of
"We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now, *I* am the master. Well... except that one other time where I totally curb-stomped you and burned you alive, and a slow-moving droid rescued you and I let you get away for some reason. But other than that, totally the master now. Yeah."
Spoiler:
I'm guessing there'll be another confrontation between those two, once Ben has done whatever character building and soul-searching happens next and has re-opened himself to the Force.
"We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now, *I* am the master. Well... except that one other time where I totally curb-stomped you and burned you alive, and a slow-moving droid rescued you and I let you get away for some reason. But other than that, totally the master now. Yeah."
Spoiler:
I'm guessing there'll be another confrontation between those two, once Ben has done whatever character building and soul-searching happens next and has re-opened himself to the Force.
Spoiler:
Also, that quote also makes perfect sense even if they were never to fight again until a New Hope. In that context, it basically means "last time I kicked your ass with a hand behind my back and now I am even more powerful; you are in for a bad time". Sith are heavy unto intimidation tactics to the point of toying with their opponents so it also fit the character. In fact, it's actually better as an intimidation tactic now than it was.
Making Star Wars reporting it the article has spoilers for the rest of season 1. Their rumours and reports for Kenobi have been spot on as they have an inside source. Viewing figures have been so good Disney want more.
Everyone seem to forget the first scene of ANH as far as Stormtrooper aim is concerned.
And then put them up against constantly plot armored heroes (with the exception of Rogue One and one scene in Mando S2), without mooks around to get shot. It's stupid, and makes the Empire look completely non-threatening, and now they pass it off as a joke, to be referenced and reinforced.
The worst bit was in Mando S1, where they supposedly killed off all those Mandalorians offscreen. I absolutely don't believe they were able to do that, considering all we've been shown in the show.
Geifer wrote: Maybe we could spend season 2 watching Obi Wan get the impression that Stormtroopers are good shots. That's got to be an interesting story.
It could be just he assumes the Clones got drafted into the Stormtroopers, and it was a stupid line 40ish years ago and its stupid now, yes well done you hit a castle sized crawler, or at least some of them did, wild uncontrolled bursts (with a cheap and crap blaster rifle) seems to be their usual fire pattern
I could go with the clone explanation if he didn't go on adventures while he's waiting for Luke to grow up, but it does expose him to non-clone troopers. And if they make more than this one off adventure, it's just going to be less plausible with every season.
Bobthehero wrote: Everyone seem to forget the first scene of ANH as far as Stormtrooper aim is concerned.
And then put them up against constantly plot armored heroes (with the exception of Rogue One and one scene in Mando S2), without mooks around to get shot. It's stupid, and makes the Empire look completely non-threatening, and now they pass it off as a joke, to be referenced and reinforced.
.
Of course in anh point wasn't to kill the heroes. It was to find rebels.
Bobthehero wrote: Everyone seem to forget the first scene of ANH as far as Stormtrooper aim is concerned.
And then put them up against constantly plot armored heroes (with the exception of Rogue One and one scene in Mando S2), without mooks around to get shot. It's stupid, and makes the Empire look completely non-threatening, and now they pass it off as a joke, to be referenced and reinforced.
The worst bit was in Mando S1, where they supposedly killed off all those Mandalorians offscreen. I absolutely don't believe they were able to do that, considering all we've been shown in the show.
Were they killed, or did they finish the battle and take their hats off and walk into exile before their sewer hidey-hole was gassed/bombed?
Though on the other hand, Mando the Mando had the 'best' set of armor by the end of season 1, and he couldn't effectively tank a rabble of dog gangsters in Book of Boba Fett. So the Mandolorian defensive attributes seem to vary by plot armor as well.
Pretty sure Book of Boba confirms they were all killed. We're also talking about the sect that takes wearing their helmets to unreasonable levels, so I feel like they would just up and leave those behind.
I'm not sure why they cast such a young girl to play Leia at supposedly 10 years old. She looks and acts much younger appropriate to her actual age when filming (8? She's turning 10 tomorrow according to IMDB). It's only exacerbated by the choice to make her extra obnoxiously precocious. They should have just set the series eight years post Ep.3 instead and dialed it down a bit.
I don't think she seems too precocious for ten year old, but I agree something seemed off about her, and that's probably what it is. She did seem really young.
We're three episodes in and I've heard it elsewhere that they seem to be having a lot more trouble with the Volume - perspective shots look a little off and the wide open vistas don't really disguise too well that they're on a set.
Spoiler:
I probably need to re-watch it but there was something really off with the way Obi-Wan was running behind those dirt piles near the end of this episode.
Show is boring, some of the scenes are so ridiculous that it totally breaks immersion (Leia running away from grown men as they obviously shuffle and waddle behind her, intentionally moving as slow as possible), a little bit of fire totally stopping vader and a bunch of stormtroopers in their tracks, I can't even name all the eye-rolling moments and we're 3 episodes in. I just know they vastly outnumber the moments where I think "that scene was cool, I'm really enjoying this show".
warboss wrote: I'm not sure why they cast such a young girl to play Leia at supposedly 10 years old. She looks and acts much younger appropriate to her actual age when filming (8? She's turning 10 tomorrow according to IMDB). It's only exacerbated by the choice to make her extra obnoxiously precocious. They should have just set the series eight years post Ep.3 instead and dialed it down a bit.
While she does look young, adult Leia is small, so casting a small girl to play child Leia works. She looks like a young Leia, and the precociousness level is perfect... This is absolutely the child who grows up to be an 18 year old standing handcuffed in front of a regional governer and telling him he smells.
Toofast wrote: Show is boring, some of the scenes are so ridiculous that it totally breaks immersion (Leia running away from grown men as they obviously shuffle and waddle behind her, intentionally moving as slow as possible), a little bit of fire totally stopping vader and a bunch of stormtroopers in their tracks, I can't even name all the eye-rolling moments and we're 3 episodes in. I just know they vastly outnumber the moments where I think "that scene was cool, I'm really enjoying this show".
Yeah, this. The chase in particular is all kinds of god awful. It's astounding to me that people can take these antagonists seriously when we see them do... y'know, that.
There are snippets here and there where you can tell that some of the people involved know their stuff and care to make a good show, but it's all dragged down by horrible decisions within the main script. It might be that the series format is too big of a constraint on the writers or that there are specific demands for the arc and timed emotional triggers in these kinds of tv show, but the end product is a let-down in many regards.
I liked some of the Vader parts of the new ep and that was it. The laser gate scene was very silly, once Obi-Wan shoots it, you assume he's going to drive the truck behind him through it but he just walks on foot, which makes no sense given the very clear gaps on the sides that he could just use to walk around it. It's scenes like these that really make you scratch your head and wonder how it got past the storyboarding stage.
Toofast wrote: Show is boring, some of the scenes are so ridiculous that it totally breaks immersion (Leia running away from grown men as they obviously shuffle and waddle behind her, intentionally moving as slow as possible), a little bit of fire totally stopping vader and a bunch of stormtroopers in their tracks, I can't even name all the eye-rolling moments and we're 3 episodes in. I just know they vastly outnumber the moments where I think "that scene was cool, I'm really enjoying this show".
Yeah, this. The chase in particular is all kinds of god awful. It's astounding to me that people can take these antagonists seriously when we see them do... y'know, that.
I think the worst part is that they repeat these terrible chase scenes enough that it kind of feels like just a collection of crappy chase scenes with terrible exposition in between to tie it all together, like some off-brand Star Wars Scooby Doo parody.
Just watched the first three episodes. The only wtf moment so far was Leia being chased in the woods, how did she outrun three adults that long?
Some cool visuals and an interesting plot so so. Lots of Easter eggs for the fans.
3rd sister grates a bit, hoping she dies horribly by the end of the series which means she’s a pretty good antagonist.
Tamereth wrote: Just watched the first three episodes. The only wtf moment so far was Leia being chased in the woods, how did she outrun three adults that long?
I mean, on a straight run it might have been a problem, but through the woods? Kids are often pretty quick (and slippery), and she makes use of obstacles that she can go through but they have to go around. She's clearly an active kid, and she's the force sensitive daughter of the only human to ever win a pod race.
To be fair, the way it was shot does make it look rather slow-moving, but then I've often thought the same thing with car races... But speaking as someone who spends a reasonable amount of time chasing small children around*, the scenario itself really isn't that outlandish.
I agree that the Leia kidnap foot chase wasn't one for the ages.
But, aside from some of the other good points raised, are people expecting an honest to goodness real life child (and a pretty tiny one at that) to be doing parkour all over the set or what? I mean, people defend Jake Lloyd for an entire movies worth of worse offences and we can't let the poor girl off for that?
I’d rather have a competent actor/actress who’s a bit crap at running, than a good runner that’s a bit crap at acting.
Young Leia’s actress is impressing me with her acting chops. To channel not just Leia, but Padmé as well is a pretty impressive bit of work.
Imagine if Jake Lloyd had that level of Direction in The Phantom Menace? If we had a charismatic Young Anakin (at the same age, I think? Certainly in-universe)
Tamereth wrote: Just watched the first three episodes. The only wtf moment so far was Leia being chased in the woods, how did she outrun three adults that long?
Some cool visuals and an interesting plot so so. Lots of Easter eggs for the fans.
3rd sister grates a bit, hoping she dies horribly by the end of the series which means she’s a pretty good antagonist.
You don't think it was a wtf moment when Obi wasted time trying to shut down the laser gate road block thing so that they could... continue on foot? Instead of just.... walking around the post he was standing next to?
I can absolutely see a person brain farting and shutting down the gate instead of going around it. Like, you’re Supposed to go thru there so of course he tries to shut it down. But if you asked him why not just go around he’d stop and stare at you for a moment and then curse at himself.
No, the wtf moment has to be the magic tunnel. Some ways down the one gal turns to go back and help Obi and apparently slips out past all the bad guys there in town. Then the Sister finds it, and somehow beats Leia to the other end.
AduroT wrote: I can absolutely see a person brain farting and shutting down the gate instead of going around it. Like, you’re Supposed to go thru there so of course he tries to shut it down. But if you asked him why not just go around he’d stop and stare at you for a moment and then curse at himself.
No, the wtf moment has to be the magic tunnel. Some ways down the one gal turns to go back and help Obi and apparently slips out past all the bad guys there in town. Then the Sister finds it, and somehow beats Leia to the other end.
I'd get it if the gate was at least tall or imposing in some way, but it's such at a comical height that it stands out like a sore thumb with how poorly placed it is. It's on par with the needless parkour that Reva goes through on the roof.
Agreed with the magic tunnel though, that's just really poor editing that makes it unclear wtf is happening.
Azreal13 wrote: I agree that the Leia kidnap foot chase wasn't one for the ages.
But, aside from some of the other good points raised, are people expecting an honest to goodness real life child (and a pretty tiny one at that) to be doing parkour all over the set or what? I mean, people defend Jake Lloyd for an entire movies worth of worse offences and we can't let the poor girl off for that?
She could have tried spinning. That’s a good trick.
I'm not hopeful, but it would be good if the writers had Vader realise Reva was lying about the Grand Inquisitor. He's faced Obi-Wan now and realises he's a bit old and useless. If he didn't already know she was lying he sure as hell should now.
There have been a few too many WTF moments, mostly in episode 3. Overall I'm enjoying the show despite its flaws. Is this only a 6-episode season? I think I remember seeing that somewhere. If so, the pacing of the last 3 is going to need to be pretty high to wrap things up.
Azreal13 wrote: I mean, people defend Jake Lloyd for an entire movies worth of worse offences...
People actually do that?
Grimskul wrote: I'd get it if the gate was at least tall or imposing in some way, but it's such at a comical height that it stands out like a sore thumb with how poorly placed it is.
What's a tall or imposing gate going to achieve? It's a checkpoint on a road through a fairly flat landscape. If someone doesn't want to get checked, they go cross country and just go around it at a safe distance.
Azreal13 wrote: I mean, people defend Jake Lloyd for an entire movies worth of worse offences...
People actually do that?
Grimskul wrote: I'd get it if the gate was at least tall or imposing in some way, but it's such at a comical height that it stands out like a sore thumb with how poorly placed it is.
What's a tall or imposing gate going to achieve? It's a checkpoint on a road through a fairly flat landscape. If someone doesn't want to get checked, they go cross country and just go around it at a safe distance.
Of course the Imperials do. If you go around on foot, you're slow and at risk of being spotted by patrols for longer. If you're motorized you kick up dust and become visible from a great distance. Either way, the checkpoint does its job. Which is what I'm saying. The checkpoint doesn't have to look particularly impressive. It just needs to be there and able to report to its base. A bigger gate isn't going to do anything of value.
Toofast wrote: Show is boring, some of the scenes are so ridiculous that it totally breaks immersion (Leia running away from grown men as they obviously shuffle and waddle behind her, intentionally moving as slow as possible), a little bit of fire totally stopping vader and a bunch of stormtroopers in their tracks, I can't even name all the eye-rolling moments and we're 3 episodes in. I just know they vastly outnumber the moments where I think "that scene was cool, I'm really enjoying this show".
Yeah, this. The chase in particular is all kinds of god awful. It's astounding to me that people can take these antagonists seriously when we see them do... y'know, that.
While I am somewhat enjoying the show, it is insanely cringe-worthy with the horrible plots and direction. It is suffering from the same issues that plagued Boba Fett - does Disney not have enough money to hire writers older than 8 years old? That is about the intelligence level of the stories, plots, interactions, etc. I could point out so many ludicrous plot points that just the first three episodes make my head spin, especially in episodes 2 and 3.
I think the directors are to blame as much as the writers, as clearly some of the idiotic sequences as written could have possibly been saved by better direction (Hey, Riva - let's kidnap the princess to lure Obi-Wan and not even be present and just know your inept lackeys will be able to contain a Jedi; and let's escape the locked down planet on these 'automated' cargo vessels that no one will think of to check, and by the way, they are so huge and have so much extra room inside and so easy to sneak inside to hitch a ride, and they are conveniently pressurized with oxygen and lands in the middle of no where to unload 12 small crates...)
Yeah, I will probably stick it out, as I bailed on BoBF due to its childish boring plot, stupidly amateurish writing/dialogue, etc. They need to stop making Obi-Wan such a powerless meathead and let him display some strength, cuz I am really struggling to like his character, but I am sure that is the point to make him so weak and he will slowly start to gain in confidence and power, but you may not have enough of your audience left by the time that happens.
Plenty of people, IME, have pointed to the script and direction as reasons he never really had a chance. I have my reservations, I think his was a flawed choice from the beginning, but I guess even that could ultimately be laid at Lucas' feet.
But ultimately, yes, people should equally have cut him some slack for being an actual human child and not sent him hatemail in the same way as I'm saying that the actress playing Leia not parkouring her way around the forest and the adults doing their best with what they had to work with is understandable and not really something to unduly criticise.
Azreal13 wrote: Plenty of people, IME, have pointed to the script and direction as reasons he never really had a chance. I have my reservations, I think his was a flawed choice from the beginning, but I guess even that could ultimately be laid at Lucas' feet.
It was made quite clear in the behind the scenes material from TPM that Lucas chose him over more experienced child actors because he fit the look Lucas wanted the best. That could still have been compensated for with the right direction, but given the performances in the prequels from even seasoned actors, the poor kid was indeed doomed from the start. And, really, did a pretty phenomenal job given the circumstances.
But ultimately, yes, people should equally have cut him some slack for being an actual human child and not sent him hatemail in the same way as I'm saying that the actress playing Leia not parkouring her way around the forest and the adults doing their best with what they had to work with is understandable and not really something to unduly criticise.
And yes, this. Ultimately, I think people are still being let down by expecting Star Wars to be one specific thing that it's never actually really been. Even ESB, for all that it sits on a pedestal, has its share of cringe moments and plot holes.
Kenobi isn't perfect, but it's fun. And that's all I expect from Star Wars, so I'm rarely disappointed.
Ultimately, I think people are still being let down by expecting Star Wars to be one specific thing that it's never actually really been.
I think it goes further than that, I think there's different subsets of fans all expecting it to be something different, so the overwhelming majority of new content gets hammered by whatever tribe didn't get it's own way.
I mean, that's probably me, but Favreau and Filoni are clearly my tribe, so all's good in my little corner of Star Wars for the foreseeable.
Azreal13 wrote: Plenty of people, IME, have pointed to the script and direction as reasons he never really had a chance. I have my reservations, I think his was a flawed choice from the beginning, but I guess even that could ultimately be laid at Lucas' feet.
It was made quite clear in the behind the scenes material from TPM that Lucas chose him over more experienced child actors because he fit the look Lucas wanted the best. That could still have been compensated for with the right direction, but given the performances in the prequels from even seasoned actors, the poor kid was indeed doomed from the start. And, really, did a pretty phenomenal job given the circumstances.
But ultimately, yes, people should equally have cut him some slack for being an actual human child and not sent him hatemail in the same way as I'm saying that the actress playing Leia not parkouring her way around the forest and the adults doing their best with what they had to work with is understandable and not really something to unduly criticise.
And yes, this. Ultimately, I think people are still being let down by expecting Star Wars to be one specific thing that it's never actually really been. Even ESB, for all that it sits on a pedestal, has its share of cringe moments and plot holes.
Kenobi isn't perfect, but it's fun. And that's all I expect from Star Wars, so I'm rarely disappointed.
I agree. SW is caught in a bit of a trap... hard core fans over think and over analyze the new content, and then dismiss it as "Crap" in an attempt to prove how good a fan they are.
Meanwhile with the old material you point out holes etc in the material and they respond with "well of course but the explination is..." without realizing the explination is something created 20 yars after the fact by the EU
Some cool stuff. Some not so cool stuff. Whilst it was great to see T-47’s in action again, there was just something a bit off to me about that scene. I think it was mostly just sort of holding there, and not buffeting or moving.
Others may disagree of course.
Domino window shattering also mildly irked me, as did Instant-Drown Stormtroopers. Book of Boba Fett clearly showed an internal air tank of some kind, so how come they just drowned in the blink of an eye? Though given water and depth I suppose it could be more they were squished by pressure?
Other than that pretty enjoyable. Kenobi is definitely getting his Ming back on.
I generally just go with the flow but that was just a badly written episode all around parts of it were laughable (and not in a good way)
Spoiler:
Good to see a purge trooper but no more competent than a regular storm trooper. The broken window borrowed heavily from Fallen Order. Did Kenobi bring a towel because he dried off very quick and no water got through the door - it's the attention to detail they are getting wrong. No security because who would attack? really? you have failed me for the last time oh alright you can have another go and seriously hiding Leia under the coat and no one noticed.
Empire proving its evil cred by having torture tables with ready to go child sized restraints.
I don’t mind the instant drying thing. Sure it’s not realistic but it’s pretty standard for more tv faire stuff. Child coat was the main dumb thing for me though. That and when the guards are walking down the hallway and Kenobi blatantly jumps behind the pillar in full view of them.
MDSW wrote: Why, oh why does Disney think people do not notice bad writing?? Can they not hire competent writers???
Rank, amateurish, juvenile, unnatural... ugh...
C'mon, I WANT THIS TO BE GOOD!!!
Disney thinks that because it's honestly kinda true at this point. 95% of what they've done with star wars has been absolute garbage but the sequel trilogy still raked in billions of dollars and people are still eating up all of the shows they're putting out, so why change anything?
Yup, low effort product with nostalgia bait as the way to draw quick and easy views. That's why they're starting to shovel out so much content, they're going for quantity rather than quality. It's sad because with something like the SW IP, they're just lazily rehashing existing characters rather than actually exploring new settings that aren't involved with the main saga (oneshot episodes for SW visions don't count). The success of KOTOR demonstrated that you can have success in an era outside of the Clone Wars to the Galactic Civil War, so it's a pity that Disney is creatively bankrupt and risk averse to take advantage of exploring the whole idea of SW being in a galaxy far far away and we instead get Tatooine being the pitstop for every major SW character.
They're also contradicting timelines. A New Hope heavily implied that Obi Wan had totally lost contact with Luke and Leia after turning them over at birth. Now in the show he's running around with Leia and talking to Bail. Obi Wan also acts surprised that Anakin is alive as Darth Vader which he already knew from multiple scenes in Ep3. It's like the writers either never watched the first 6 movies, or they did and decided to ignore it the way Disney ignores the novels.
Toofast wrote: They're also contradicting timelines. A New Hope heavily implied that Obi Wan had totally lost contact with Luke and Leia after turning them over at birth. Now in the show he's running around with Leia and talking to Bail. Obi Wan also acts surprised that Anakin is alive as Darth Vader which he already knew from multiple scenes in Ep3. It's like the writers either never watched the first 6 movies, or they did and decided to ignore it the way Disney ignores the novels.
Obi Wan knows Darth Vader is Anakin. Obi Wan does not know that Darth Vader survived their duel. He's been living in the middle of nowhere ever since.
Luke specifically knows "Old Ben Kenobi" in A New Hope. Uncle Owen doesn't approve of the guy, but Luke is clearly familiar with him. It never implies he had no contact with either since birth.
Leia is also familiar with him, but introduces herself (via message) with the appropriate etiquette (she is a princess and a senator, after all): As her father's contemporary, he's more likely to know her father than her, so that's what she leads with.
All that New Hope implies is that 'Old Ben' is a creepy old wizard that Luke knows more by rumor than personal experience. And Uncle Owen isn't likely to invite him around.
The prequels had more continuity fails than this, and R2 was a complete brat (or monster) for not sharing everything he knew (which was, functionally, everything that mattered).
AduroT wrote: Empire proving its evil cred by having torture tables with ready to go child sized restraints.
In fairness, there are plenty of filthy aliens who are roughly the size of a human child fully grown. Be pretty embarrassing to need some info out of an Ewok and not have teddy bear sized restraints available
I'm starting to get the impression that Third Sister is not a very nice person.
DaveC wrote: I generally just go with the flow but that was just a badly written episode all around parts of it were laughable (and not in a good way)
Spoiler:
Good to see a purge trooper but no more competent than a regular storm trooper. The broken window borrowed heavily from Fallen Order. Did Kenobi bring a towel because he dried off very quick and no water got through the door - it's the attention to detail they are getting wrong. No security because who would attack? really? you have failed me for the last time oh alright you can have another go and seriously hiding Leia under the coat and no one noticed.
This is a good reflection of my feelings.
Spoiler:
Plus a few other things, to be honest. I'm not saying that I literally said "if she's making it through the security check I'm going to kick a puppy", but I literally said that. It's not that I don't notice dodgy stuff when I watch, but I usually let it go because there's plenty of time to shake my head at all the nonsense later. I don't usually think ahead, but this I did see coming instantly and that's not an experience I need out of a movie or show. Somehow the writers are mortally afraid of letting the bad guys exhibit even the tiniest amount of competence, as if giving the heroes a challenge to overcome is somehow a bad thing.
Kind of cool to see a Purge Trooper. But only kind of. It's not like there was any expectation that he was ever going to achieve anything, but they could have shown him do something instead of being just another member of a faceless horde. For all their elite status Death Troopers failed pretty hard in Rogue One when the plot demanded it, but at least they got a moment to shine before they joined the ranks of entirely useless Imperial troopers. They could have done that for the Purge Trooper as well. If for nothing else, then at least for the sake of toy sales.
So, Leia's droid? Will it get saved? Will it heroically sacrifice itself? Any bets?
I’d noticed it was getting longer and happened to catch Leia’s droid in it before the episode. I hadn’t fully caught the red/blue on the bad/good guys till this. Interestingly the Mandolorian helmet is in red.
AduroT wrote: I’d noticed it was getting longer and happened to catch Leia’s droid in it before the episode. I hadn’t fully caught the red/blue on the bad/good guys till this. Interestingly the Mandolorian helmet is in red.
I'm going to have to pay attention to it next time.
AduroT wrote: I really didn’t think four was all that bad other than the child under the coat…
You don't think it's a problem that the supposedly most secure place in the galaxy doesn't have shields, turbolaser batteries, any fleet presence in orbit or at least some TIEs on patrol?
Or this gem:
Dude: "Your credentials won't give you access to this facility."
Dudette: "Yeah, but I'm a captain and you're a lieutenant, so get stuffed!"
Dude. "Good point! Have a nice day, sir!"
Geifer wrote:Wow, they adapt the opening? I haven't consciously watched that thing since the first episodes of Mandalorian.
AduroT wrote:I’d noticed it was getting longer and happened to catch Leia’s droid in it before the episode. I hadn’t fully caught the red/blue on the bad/good guys till this. Interestingly the Mandolorian helmet is in red.
I know in the Clone Wars they would sometimes change the normal opening logo color to red for sith themed episodes, so messing with the opening is something that has been done before.
As a security guard, I find that entirely believable. She has authority and rank, and while outside her normal area, she was supposedly headed straight to report to the person in charge. Also we’re ten years into an organization where the higher ups have a habit of killing underlings who annoy them. The empire probably also suffers from crap funding due to how much is likely funneled into building the Death Stars and cuts corners where possible and relying on reputation and the appearance of security rather than actual security. Obviously we get to see some Jedi because that’s the point of the show, but how many Jedi are actually around this many years later that they would warrant high priority funding?
She has rank. How much authority comes with it is entirely dependent on circumstances. That's the whole issue. In the simplistic view of the writers spy lady outranks scanner dude and can just get in by pulling rank. That's about as good as just skipping security and putting up a sign on the door that reads "no spies allowed".
In the simplest way a semi-competent organization outside personnel should either have credentials that give them clearance for a visit during a specific time frame or not even get past a waiting area until they get clearance from someone in the facility whose job is to check such visitors' claims. This is not a complicated system and probably laughably inadequate by the standards of the average intelligence agency. Yet they don't even manage to decouple rank and authority, which is a necessary prerequisite to have working restricted access facilities unless you hire a couple of admirals to pull scanner shifts.
I won't give you funding because we canonically know from Rebels and Rogue One that while budgets are definitely a consideration, other projects than the Death Star are allowed to compete for resources and there is plenty to go around for such projects to coexist if only you can make a case for it. Also based on the real life truism that the only thing that gets better funding in a dictatorship than the military is the secret police. Scarif runs a planetary shield all day long, every day of the week. There's no reason to believe the electricity bill for a shield at the inquisition fortress is going to bankrupt the Empire.
I think it's backwards to use Jedi as a reason for budget cuts. First, there may be fewer as time goes by but the fortress would have been built and equipped early on. If there ever was concern that the fortress might get attacked, it was during the time it was constructed. Second, the fortress is the one place in the galaxy where foolhardy rebels might find Jedi to rally behind. It doesn't just have to be a maximum security prison to stop someone as capable as a Jedi from escaping, but has to equally be equipped to deal with breakout attempts from the outside. Considering that Palpi has little to fear from normal people and his one true adversary are the Jedi, you'd think he would take an interest in making the place that is at least temporarily home to Jedi as secure as it can possibly be. It simply doesn't make sense to base the fortress's security on reputation without the means to back it up because the thing that would tempt an attack is not reason but hope, and that's not something that is deterred by reputation. Not the least because the rebels in Obi Wan know that the physical capabilities are simply not there.
AduroT wrote: Empire proving its evil cred by having torture tables with ready to go child sized restraints.
Actually makes sense in this context. It's where they're taking all the Force sensitive children they kidnap.
Fun to see this facility in live action. They did a good job recreating it from Fallen Order. Kind of weird that its underwater to make it impenetrable, yet two Jedi have escaped specifically because broken windows block pursuit.
Overall enjoyed this one, though I understand it felt more like a script for a 20 episode series than 6. Fun stuff, McGregor and Little Leia continue to put in solid performances. 7/10
StraightSilver wrote: Weirdly, and obviously I'm in the minority - this was actually my favourite episode so far.
Same. It has significant problems like the interrogation/torture scene played for laughs and the trench coat escape that was more minions from Despicable Me than Jedi Master from Star Wars. But at least we got to see Ben get it up finally and Leia was played as a likeable 8 year old kid (even with the completely out of left field staring contest quip). I can forgive the rest.
Spoiler:
Are the force sensitives in the basement alive or pickled like Snoke? Did they give any indication? I'm not sure why they'd keep them alive if they rejected the Empire as the inquisitor said. There will always be a fresh supply of force sensitives born every year to replace them so no need to keep them chilled.
StraightSilver wrote: Weirdly, and obviously I'm in the minority - this was actually my favourite episode so far.
Same. It has significant problems like the interrogation/torture scene played for laughs and the trench coat escape that was more minions from Despicable Me than Jedi Master from Star Wars. But at least we got to see Ben get it up finally and Leia was played as a likeable 8 year old kid (even with the completely out of left field staring contest quip). I can forgive the rest.
Spoiler:
Are the force sensitives in the basement alive or pickled like Snoke? Did they give any indication? I'm not sure why they'd keep them alive if they rejected the Empire as the inquisitor said. There will always be a fresh supply of force sensitives born every year to replace them so no need to keep them chilled.
Well...
Spoiler:
There's a lot to suggest that it is genetic (thanks to the bloodline fetish, which makes for an uncomfortable divine mandate for superpowers), so a 'fresh supply' every year isn't necessarily true.
It's genetic but random mutation is a thing both in real life and Star Wars. Being inducted into the Jedi order was basically the same thing as being killed/put into stasis from the perspective of passing on your force sensitive genetics via procreation since Jedi almost entirely were childless and yet the supply was maintained regardless for thousands of years (and the centuries of the more strict child kidnapping of the prequel era). And obviously that's not including the people born to parents with no sensitivity.
Are the force sensitives in the basement alive or pickled like Snoke? Did they give any indication? I'm not sure why they'd keep them alive if they rejected the Empire as the inquisitor said. There will always be a fresh supply of force sensitives born every year to replace them so no need to keep them chilled.
Obi specifically calls it a grave or something like that, so I assume they're dead.
This seems to be part of the RoS backfill we've been getting since Mandalorian:
Spoiler:
Palpatine wants to have a clone body to jump to when he dies to achieve immortality.
Clone bodies do not seem to naturally carry enough Midichlorians to allow him to transfer his consciousness and powers. Rey's father is one of these failed clones.
Palpatine appears to be attempting to extract Midichlorians in an attempt to implant enough of them to have a working backup body.
What we see going on here seems to be a pooled resource version of what seemed to be the plan for Grogu.
Grimskul wrote: Yup, low effort product with nostalgia bait as the way to draw quick and easy views. That's why they're starting to shovel out so much content, they're going for quantity rather than quality. It's sad because with something like the SW IP, they're just lazily rehashing existing characters rather than actually exploring new settings that aren't involved with the main saga (oneshot episodes for SW visions don't count). The success of KOTOR demonstrated that you can have success in an era outside of the Clone Wars to the Galactic Civil War, so it's a pity that Disney is creatively bankrupt and risk averse to take advantage of exploring the whole idea of SW being in a galaxy far far away and we instead get Tatooine being the pitstop for every major SW character.
I am positive that Disney has a Blunderbuss of Intellectual Property Dispersal +3, and they've modded it with a crank-belt fed system.
AduroT wrote: As a security guard, I find that entirely believable. She has authority and rank, and while outside her normal area, she was supposedly headed straight to report to the person in charge. Also we’re ten years into an organization where the higher ups have a habit of killing underlings who annoy them.
as a man who has done many a guard shift in a competent military, its completely unbelievable....without that final caveat. I have, as a private, told majors and half-colonels "no, go get clearance, then try again", and if/when they complained to my chain of command, the second word out of my bosses mouth was "off". As others have said, any security system that anyone with rank can bully though is not a security system.
HOWEVER....this is the Empire, and its not a competent military, and it IS run by people with a habit of abusing power and punishing underlings, so i can fully believe that she could get away with breaking the rules because of the implied special relationship she has.
So, what we have here is a shining example of the problems that this sort of toxic leadership can cause, and how is erodes proper discipline and weakens the organisation as a whole.
That the guard let her through after she threatened to tell Vader or the Grand Inquisitor makes sense with what we know from other films/shows. The Empire dominated the galaxy but fell apart rapidly because fear and loyalty to the name took precedence over logic and duty. Who cares about doing your job right, what if that officer does actually know Vader? Then you're dead. Better not to take the risk.
AduroT wrote: As a security guard, I find that entirely believable. She has authority and rank, and while outside her normal area, she was supposedly headed straight to report to the person in charge. Also we’re ten years into an organization where the higher ups have a habit of killing underlings who annoy them.
as a man who has done many a guard shift in a competent military, its completely unbelievable....without that final caveat. I have, as a private, told majors and half-colonels "no, go get clearance, then try again", and if/when they complained to my chain of command, the second word out of my bosses mouth was "off". As others have said, any security system that anyone with rank can bully though is not a security system.
HOWEVER....this is the Empire, and its not a competent military, and it IS run by people with a habit of abusing power and punishing underlings, so i can fully believe that she could get away with breaking the rules because of the implied special relationship she has.
So, what we have here is a shining example of the problems that this sort of toxic leadership can cause, and how is erodes proper discipline and weakens the organisation as a whole.
I completely agree with you. This is an organization in which one officer clearly murdered another one and got away with it with a promotion. The Empire is supposed to be a corrupt, uselessly cruel and rigid organization that makes it both very dangerous to civilians and weaker foreign powers and uniquely vulnerable and weak to sabotage, spy work or insurgencies. That's why they lost afterall.
StraightSilver wrote: Weirdly, and obviously I'm in the minority - this was actually my favourite episode so far.
Same. It has significant problems like the interrogation/torture scene played for laughs and the trench coat escape that was more minions from Despicable Me than Jedi Master from Star Wars. But at least we got to see Ben get it up finally and Leia was played as a likeable 8 year old kid (even with the completely out of left field staring contest quip). I can forgive the rest.
Spoiler:
Are the force sensitives in the basement alive or pickled like Snoke? Did they give any indication? I'm not sure why they'd keep them alive if they rejected the Empire as the inquisitor said. There will always be a fresh supply of force sensitives born every year to replace them so no need to keep them chilled.
I didnt mind the quip, it seems both in character for the kid we've seen, is pointed out as pure false bravado by Reva, and is their mainly to emphasise that leias latent force ability is enough to prevent Reva form just reading her mind like shes did to the fake jedi in ep 2, and thus justify the extended conventional interrogation and thus create the time for obi wan to come. it serves a useful story purpose.
AduroT wrote: As a security guard, I find that entirely believable. She has authority and rank, and while outside her normal area, she was supposedly headed straight to report to the person in charge. Also we’re ten years into an organization where the higher ups have a habit of killing underlings who annoy them.
as a man who has done many a guard shift in a competent military, its completely unbelievable....without that final caveat. I have, as a private, told majors and half-colonels "no, go get clearance, then try again", and if/when they complained to my chain of command, the second word out of my bosses mouth was "off". As others have said, any security system that anyone with rank can bully though is not a security system.
HOWEVER....this is the Empire, and its not a competent military, and it IS run by people with a habit of abusing power and punishing underlings, so i can fully believe that she could get away with breaking the rules because of the implied special relationship she has.
So, what we have here is a shining example of the problems that this sort of toxic leadership can cause, and how is erodes proper discipline and weakens the organisation as a whole.
I completely agree with you. This is an organization in which one officer clearly murdered another one and got away with it with a promotion. The Empire is supposed to be a corrupt, uselessly cruel and rigid organization that makes it both very dangerous to civilians and weaker foreign powers and uniquely vulnerable and weak to sabotage, spy work or insurgencies. That's why they lost afterall.
Well... Overconfidence of the supreme executive and a galaxy-wide dance party while the mostly intact military was hand-waved out of existence is technically why they lost.
I'm pretty sure the Empire lost because everyone in the Imperial military took the day off and joined the rave of the century. Then they woke up hungover and without an Empire. Oops.
Some cool stuff. Some not so cool stuff. Whilst it was great to see T-47’s in action again, there was just something a bit off to me about that scene. I think it was mostly just sort of holding there, and not buffeting or moving.
Others may disagree of course.
Domino window shattering also mildly irked me, as did Instant-Drown Stormtroopers. Book of Boba Fett clearly showed an internal air tank of some kind, so how come they just drowned in the blink of an eye? Though given water and depth I suppose it could be more they were squished by pressure?
Other than that pretty enjoyable. Kenobi is definitely getting his Ming back on.
first of all we have no idea how far down that thing was, the water PRESSURE may have been sufficant to stop them. in fact given that a single crack was eneugh to have the window begin to shatter and the water rush in like that, it's a safe bet the water pressure was pretty high.
Secondly. the stormtroopers didn't NEED to be killed. they simply needed to be slowed down and STOPPED.
AduroT wrote: As a security guard, I find that entirely believable. She has authority and rank, and while outside her normal area, she was supposedly headed straight to report to the person in charge. Also we’re ten years into an organization where the higher ups have a habit of killing underlings who annoy them.
as a man who has done many a guard shift in a competent military, its completely unbelievable....without that final caveat. I have, as a private, told majors and half-colonels "no, go get clearance, then try again", and if/when they complained to my chain of command, the second word out of my bosses mouth was "off". As others have said, any security system that anyone with rank can bully though is not a security system.
HOWEVER....this is the Empire, and its not a competent military, and it IS run by people with a habit of abusing power and punishing underlings, so i can fully believe that she could get away with breaking the rules because of the implied special relationship she has.
So, what we have here is a shining example of the problems that this sort of toxic leadership can cause, and how is erodes proper discipline and weakens the organisation as a whole.
I completely agree with you. This is an organization in which one officer clearly murdered another one and got away with it with a promotion. The Empire is supposed to be a corrupt, uselessly cruel and rigid organization that makes it both very dangerous to civilians and weaker foreign powers and uniquely vulnerable and weak to sabotage, spy work or insurgencies. That's why they lost afterall.
Well... Overconfidence of the supreme executive and a galaxy-wide dance party while the mostly intact military was hand-waved out of existence is technically why they lost.
What you said always makes me think of this Robot Chicken clip:
I enjoyed that episode. Ben got his mojo back, Leia holds her own against an Inquisitor.
The buts... Is this where Vader learns the 'put a tracker on the ship trick' (and Leia learns to look out for it); Reva's standing in her chosen profession must be at all all time low (she can't even read the mind of a 10 year old), and I also agree there seemed something off about the vehicle effects (the shuttle landing at the Inquisitor base didn't seem 'placed' and the shot from behind the T-47s as they went deep into the base seemed odd).
Still, generally very positive and looking forward to next week.
To be fair, I would think that would be much more difficult than an adult. An adult has likely developed patterns and (hopefully) some discipline. Their thoughts are going to settle into 'tracks' and predictable routines as they go through their life.
A 10 year old's thoughts are likely everywhere, still trying to figure out what things are and why things happen. Add in a stressful situation and I'd imagine their thoughts scatter like butterflies.
To be fair, I would think that would be much more difficult than an adult. An adult has likely developed patterns and (hopefully) some discipline. Their thoughts are going to settle into 'tracks' and predictable routines as they go through their life.
A 10 year old's thoughts are likely everywhere, still trying to figure out what things are and why things happen. Add in a stressful situation and I'd imagine their thoughts scatter like butterflies.
Thats just justifying characters gaining and forgetting skills and abilities to suit the plot.
Lets remember that obiwan was capable of running at superhuman speeds in episode 1 and then forgot how to do it when he needed to be locked behind an energy door at the end of the movie.
This suddenly not being able to do the thing we just watched you do is par for the course bad starwars writing and there is no in universe explanation for it.
a strongly force sensitive 10 year old, mind. its already in film canon that force sensitives are harder to read, even without much or any training (rey in the force awakens), so its no suprise she couldnt just mind-screw the infomation out of leia.
plus, the inquisitors were, in several sources, noted to be mediocre force users as best, partly becuase thats all they could find to work with after the Purge, and partly as a precaution against them trying Sith promotions against Vader or the Emperor.
a strongly force sensitive 10 year old, mind. its already in film canon that force sensitives are harder to read, even without much or any training (rey in the force awakens), so its no suprise she couldnt just mind-screw the infomation out of leia.
plus, the inquisitors were, in several sources, noted to be mediocre force users as best, partly becuase thats all they could find to work with after the Purge, and partly as a precaution against them trying Sith promotions against Vader or the Emperor.
She's also just a 10 year old kid. I get that they're never going to show actual torture on screen (much less that of a child), but if you know anything about kids, no matter how precocious they are, it's not hard to make them say or tell you what you want. They're not trained for interrogation and kids don't deal well with extended amounts of targeted pain. They have mind probe tech, just use that if somehow Reva is that weak to even pull it out of an untrained child.
She also has zero training but Rey pretty much made that previously valid reason moot in canon. I'd have been ok if she was resistant AFTER the interrogation maybe in a later scene/episode during a second attempt by one of the inquisitors as a result of regretting revealing something important that had devastating consequences but that would be character development and Disney/Lucasfilm seem adverse to that depending on the character.
Thats just justifying characters gaining and forgetting skills and abilities to suit the plot.
Lets remember that obiwan was capable of running at superhuman speeds in episode 1 and then forgot how to do it when he needed to be locked behind an energy door at the end of the movie.
This suddenly not being able to do the thing we just watched you do is par for the course bad starwars writing and there is no in universe explanation for it.
I would exalt this post a thousand times if it were possible. This right here is why I have such a hard time getting into anything Disney Wars. That kind of atrociously lazy writing has plagued all of their movies and shows. Lord help you if you actually point it out too, cause then the fandom just immediately decides you're a racist/sexist/closet Nazi.
a strongly force sensitive 10 year old, mind. its already in film canon that force sensitives are harder to read, even without much or any training (rey in the force awakens), so its no suprise she couldnt just mind-screw the infomation out of leia.
plus, the inquisitors were, in several sources, noted to be mediocre force users as best, partly becuase thats all they could find to work with after the Purge, and partly as a precaution against them trying Sith promotions against Vader or the Emperor.
Plus, of course, Vader himself couldn't pull the location of the Rebel base out of the mind of a drugged, tortured (and still untrained) Leia ~8-10 years later, so this is all completely unprecedented.
They're right, we should all definitely be aghast at the lazy writing and people forgetting skills.
Maybe the writers aren't the ones forgetting...
still baffled as to why Vader didn't just create an interesting ceiling based cleaning job out of Third Sisters skull this week, given last week he was happily murdering civvies for no reason, that's the second time she's left Obi escape and with Leia this time which can be spun into negative PR for the Empire, she's lucky theres two episodes to go
MarkNorfolk wrote: I was referring to her standing with the other Inquisitors. It is baffling how Third Sister is still alive.
It is a tad surprising they haven't had the bad guy think of arranging a work place accident for her, hunting Jedi is kind of dangerous, who knows what the odd force push or pull could do in the heat of a saber battle
Thats just justifying characters gaining and forgetting skills and abilities to suit the plot.
Lets remember that obiwan was capable of running at superhuman speeds in episode 1 and then forgot how to do it when he needed to be locked behind an energy door at the end of the movie.
This suddenly not being able to do the thing we just watched you do is par for the course bad starwars writing and there is no in universe explanation for it.
I would exalt this post a thousand times if it were possible. This right here is why I have such a hard time getting into anything Disney Wars. That kind of atrociously lazy writing has plagued all of their movies and shows. Lord help you if you actually point it out too, cause then the fandom just immediately decides you're a racist/sexist/closet Nazi.
This doesn't plague Disney Wars. This plagues starwars. Period. Episode 4 sees a guy get his arm chopped off wih a light sabre and there is blood, never to happen again. Luke learns powers without training just as fast as Rey (nobody taught him to force pull his light sabre to himself and he had never seen anyone do it but he still manages to do it at the beginning of Empire).
Starwars has had this kind of crap writing since the very beginning. Fans just like to forget it. Don't blame Disney. Blame Lucasfilm/Lucas Arts etc etc... They have been doing this since the 70s. Disney just acquired their bull gak.
a strongly force sensitive 10 year old, mind. its already in film canon that force sensitives are harder to read, even without much or any training (rey in the force awakens), so its no suprise she couldnt just mind-screw the infomation out of leia.
plus, the inquisitors were, in several sources, noted to be mediocre force users as best, partly becuase thats all they could find to work with after the Purge, and partly as a precaution against them trying Sith promotions against Vader or the Emperor.
Plus, of course, Vader himself couldn't pull the location of the Rebel base out of the mind of a drugged, tortured (and still untrained) Leia ~8-10 years later, so this is all completely unprecedented.
They're right, we should all definitely be aghast at the lazy writing and people forgetting skills. Maybe the writers aren't the ones forgetting...
We have never once seen Vader use the power to pull information from peoples minds before. That trick isn't in his bag.
We have seen The Emperor do it (at the very least through Snoke), Kylo Ren, and now 3rd Sister. But not Anakin. So yeah, right now you are assuming Vader is capable of a force power we have never seen him use, that I agree he SHOULD be able to use, but he never COULD use because the plot required him to not be able to.
MarkNorfolk wrote: I was referring to her standing with the other Inquisitors. It is baffling how Third Sister is still alive.
as far as i can tell, shes hanging on by a thread of still being slightly more competent than the other two (who have been demoted to "costumed extra with a few lines"), and her continuing ability to create JUST enough favour with Vader to make him think keeping her alive is useful.
the only reason vader didnt insta-kill her that i can think of (in character, i mean, rather than the out of universe answer of "shes a primary antagonist, she wont die until the end") is that hes trying to use her demise as a way to put the fear of sith into the other two, to motivate them, so he needs her to suffer and beg before shes killed.
We have never once seen Vader use the power to pull information from peoples minds before. That trick isn't in his bag.
on the contrary, we have, at least to some degree, when he pulls infomation about Leia form Lukes mind in ROTJ ("So, you have a sister...your feelings have now betray her too!").
granted, this does advance the idea that its not impossible, but still, vader is shown to be able to read thoughts like that.
Also, that scene reinforces the fact that vader, at least, did not know about Leias true identity as his daughter ("obi-wan was wise to hide her form me"), so that means he wont find this out during this series, even if someone else does (presumably, they dont live long enough to tell him).
It could simply be that unlike other Cred A Bajillion Imperial Officers, Inquisitors are granted slightly more leeway by Vader - potentially on the orders of Palpatine.
After all, Force Users aren’t especially common. Those strong enough in the Force to be worth actually training are rarer still.
We have never once seen Vader use the power to pull information from peoples minds before. That trick isn't in his bag.
on the contrary, we have, at least to some degree, when he pulls infomation about Leia form Lukes mind in ROTJ ("So, you have a sister...your feelings have now betray her too!").
granted, this does advance the idea that its not impossible, but still, vader is shown to be able to read thoughts like that.
Also, that scene reinforces the fact that vader, at least, did not know about Leias true identity as his daughter ("obi-wan was wise to hide her form me"), so that means he wont find this out during this series, even if someone else does (presumably, they dont live long enough to tell him).
That bit was always more... feelings then direct information. Which fits with the rest of what we got in the orig trig. He says some antagonizing gak, it drums up feelings of sibling affection and Vader works it out. Thats not the same thing we see the others do. The others pull actual factual information out of peoples heads without prompting them. They just hold their hand out, the victim makes some agonizing faces, and then they know street addresses and gak.
Anakin was a poster boy for weird unorthodox plans that tend to work out in the end. Oh, so you planned ahead and stuck a tracking beacon on the girl so if/when they rescued her they’d lead us back to their whole network? Bold strategy. I’ll allow it.
Oh they just took her directly back to Aldarran, and the cute robot is there and we have no clue where Kenobi is now, good job plot stupid will demand otherwise
LunarSol wrote: This discussion would all be hilarious if it wasn't exactly why I can't enjoy Star Wars anymore.
Because... other people talk about it?
I'm super unclear what the 'exactly' here would be.
Because every conversation is about precise minutia of every line of dialog ever spoken and cross checking that every action taken lines up precisely with the iron clad rules that were generally retconned into the series a decade or so after they were kind of thrown together in the first place. It's never fun, just exhausting.
a strongly force sensitive 10 year old, mind. its already in film canon that force sensitives are harder to read, even without much or any training (rey in the force awakens), so its no suprise she couldnt just mind-screw the infomation out of leia.
plus, the inquisitors were, in several sources, noted to be mediocre force users as best, partly becuase thats all they could find to work with after the Purge, and partly as a precaution against them trying Sith promotions against Vader or the Emperor.
She's also just a 10 year old kid. I get that they're never going to show actual torture on screen (much less that of a child), but if you know anything about kids, no matter how precocious they are, it's not hard to make them say or tell you what you want. They're not trained for interrogation and kids don't deal well with extended amounts of targeted pain. They have mind probe tech, just use that if somehow Reva is that weak to even pull it out of an untrained child.
what mind probe tech is that? we see darth vader, a force user refer to a mind probe in ANH, we see force users extract information from people..
the conclusion: Vader was refering to a force technique when he said mind probe.
And if Leia can resist Vader... then of course she can resist a half trained Inqusitor.
So, finally got around to re-subbing and eventually watched Kenobi. Glad there is other stuff to watch on D+, to be honest.
A no-stakes slog through a 'dark story' on Star Wars street with a child and a grumpy (well, flat out sniveling and whiny) middle-aged-but-old-man is not exactly compelling.
In fact, half way through I got bored and re-watched Disney's ZOMBIES instead, because a)I'm on something of a musical kick lately, and b) the characters and the plot are just that much more interesting (though the second to third act transition is a little weak).
About the only thing I'm taking away from this is the fear that one day they'll do 'The Other Kenobi' as a space-filing side project, because of a random conversational tidbit about having a younger brother.
The most interesting mental puzzle is working out if its worse or slightly better than Book of Boba Fett.
And if Alderaan has therapists, because this kid has seen so many people murdered. Mostly by the good guys (at least in her line of sight), so no wonder she never had any interest in becoming a Jedi.
Honeslty it's pretty easy to say Kenobi is better than Boba Fett. As time has done on I look at BoBF and think it was a waste of time.
Only the last three episodes of that show are worth watching. The rest is a bunch of time wasting nonsense in-between a very bland dances with wolves remake.
Kenobi meanwhile is just... That'll do pig? Something that's kind of struck me as Disney+ TV series continue is how time inefficient they are. Don't get me wrong I like quite a few of them but is Moon Knight really six episodes? Are you sure? Like really really sure? Cause I swear they could have slapped that entire series into a standard 2-2.5 hour Marvel film and not cut anything. It's weird how much time is spent in these shows chewing the scenery, walking through halls, and basically just padding out the run time with stuff that's neat enough to watch but at the end I have to wonder if it served any purpose at all beyond padding the run time.
LordofHats wrote: Honeslty it's pretty easy to say Kenobi is better than Boba Fett. As time has done on I look at BoBF and think it was a waste of time.
Only the last three episodes of that show are worth watching. The rest is a bunch of time wasting nonsense in-between a very bland dances with wolves remake.
Kenobi meanwhile is just... That'll do pig? Something that's kind of struck me as Disney+ TV series continue is how time inefficient they are. Don't get me wrong I like quite a few of them but is Moon Knight really six episodes? Are you sure? Like really really sure? Cause I swear they could have slapped that entire series into a standard 2-2.5 hour Marvel film and not cut anything. It's weird how much time is spent in these shows chewing the scenery, walking through halls, and basically just padding out the run time with stuff that's neat enough to watch but at the end I have to wonder if it served any purpose at all beyond padding the run time.
I wonder how many of them were originally written as 2-2.5 hour flims that then got "converted" into 6-10 episode series as an attempt to shift with the rising popularity of streaming services at some point in production.
LordofHats wrote: Honeslty it's pretty easy to say Kenobi is better than Boba Fett. As time has done on I look at BoBF and think it was a waste of time.
Only the last three episodes of that show are worth watching. The rest is a bunch of time wasting nonsense in-between a very bland dances with wolves remake.
Kenobi meanwhile is just... That'll do pig? Something that's kind of struck me as Disney+ TV series continue is how time inefficient they are. Don't get me wrong I like quite a few of them but is Moon Knight really six episodes? Are you sure? Like really really sure? Cause I swear they could have slapped that entire series into a standard 2-2.5 hour Marvel film and not cut anything. It's weird how much time is spent in these shows chewing the scenery, walking through halls, and basically just padding out the run time with stuff that's neat enough to watch but at the end I have to wonder if it served any purpose at all beyond padding the run time.
Boba Fett at least set up something for other characters to do. We could, in theory, get fun adventures with Assassin Lady or see a full blown crime war in the future. BoBF failure was mostly in execution. Kenobi's primary failure seems to be the entire premise (as well as execution)
Kenobi simply rehashes that Leia had a far more interesting life than the Luke (but we knew that already, as she spent her teens as Senator and Ambassador), and all the interesting things in Obi-wan's life have happened already.
This could have been really interesting misadventures related to the aftermath of the Clone Wars. Instead we get the really boring end bits of the purge for Obi to complain about, and a few glimpses at other more interesting stories as they pass by the main characters. Shows where the character's primary goal is to _not_ be involved are a pet peeve. It feeds from the character to the actor to the whole production. Its the same problem I had with Hawkeye, really. If they don't want to be here, I don't really either.
AduroT wrote: I’m pretty sure I remember Kenobi was to be a film before they changed their mind and made it a series.
Boba, too, I believe. Also Book of Boba is stretched out by the two episodes of The Mandalorian season 2.5 that happen in between.
Personally I'm not sure I'd consider either show unduly dragging on, though. I'd want to wait for Obi Wan to finish and watch it again in one go, but I thought during the second pass Book of Boba had a much better flow to it. I'm generally getting the impression that the Star Wars shows are created to be binged but released weekly for obvious monetary reasons.
AduroT wrote: I’m pretty sure I remember Kenobi was to be a film before they changed their mind and made it a series.
Boba, too, I believe. Also Book of Boba is stretched out by the two episodes of The Mandalorian season 2.5 that happen in between.
Personally I'm not sure I'd consider either show unduly dragging on, though. I'd want to wait for Obi Wan to finish and watch it again in one go, but I thought during the second pass Book of Boba had a much better flow to it. I'm generally getting the impression that the Star Wars shows are created to be binged but released weekly for obvious monetary reasons.
that may be an extension of the fact these two shows seem to have been written as "1 story, over 6 episodes", not "6 stories, each a episode long". On the binge, that works well and the episodes flow into each other. but over a weekly release like this, it feels we get some very "slow" episodes where not much happens. we're not really used to having a 6 hour show, we tend to get either 2-3 hours of flim that move very fast though a single story, or a 20+ episode season that has a lot of side stories, non plot moving episodes, etc. these shows seem to sit in a sort of unhappy middle ground, too focused to allow for much filler or secondary content to add variety, but too long to fill with a single coherent plotline without it feeling "slow".
and yes, it is telling some of the best episodes of the BoBF were the two that centred around the Mando.
and yes, it is telling some of the best episodes of the BoBF were the two that centred around the Mando.
I think that's because they started BoBF with 'Fan Service' as their only idea, and got lost in the sudden, unconnected, out-of-nowhere and inexplicable storm of 'ethical crime lord.' And decided to paste the non-existent pieces together with Dances with Wolves.
Splicing in a reunion of their marketing opportunity (in the form of Lone Helmet and Little Green Cub) meant they could salvage that mess and reset the formula for Mando Season 3. (never mind that the formula is starting to look a little one note)
Supposedly I was told today that they only had written story for so many episodes, but the suits told them they had to include X many so they just added in the Mando episodes.
Boba and Obi Wan were definitely in the works as films before Solo kind of tanked that whole idea. It's pretty clear they got pulled off the shelf when Mando worked and while Obi Wan is substantially better than Boba, you can definitely see where these were filmed scripts stretched thin to cover about twice the time with significantly less budget.
LunarSol wrote: Boba and Obi Wan were definitely in the works as films before Solo kind of tanked that whole idea. It's pretty clear they got pulled off the shelf when Mando worked and while Obi Wan is substantially better than Boba, you can definitely see where these were filmed scripts stretched thin to cover about twice the time with significantly less budget.
Which, ironically, seems to have magnified the problems of Solo.
The first episode in particular seemed to be set on forcing the SW universe to be absolutely tiny. They even literally set up a confrontation on Star Wars Street, where no one (somehow) learned anything at all. They just met so the audience could see them meet.
a strongly force sensitive 10 year old, mind. its already in film canon that force sensitives are harder to read, even without much or any training (rey in the force awakens), so its no suprise she couldnt just mind-screw the infomation out of leia.
plus, the inquisitors were, in several sources, noted to be mediocre force users as best, partly becuase thats all they could find to work with after the Purge, and partly as a precaution against them trying Sith promotions against Vader or the Emperor.
She's also just a 10 year old kid. I get that they're never going to show actual torture on screen (much less that of a child), but if you know anything about kids, no matter how precocious they are, it's not hard to make them say or tell you what you want. They're not trained for interrogation and kids don't deal well with extended amounts of targeted pain. They have mind probe tech, just use that if somehow Reva is that weak to even pull it out of an untrained child.
what mind probe tech is that? we see darth vader, a force user refer to a mind probe in ANH, we see force users extract information from people..
the conclusion: Vader was refering to a force technique when he said mind probe.
And if Leia can resist Vader... then of course she can resist a half trained Inqusitor.
I believe it's these IT-O Interrogation Unit droids that are also known to use mind probes. Kinda dumb they use the same term for the force power, but it isn't exclusively a Force wielder term.
Yup. I don't think Lucas film has any fething idea what the hell makes for good compelling stories. At this point it's a non stop parade of fan service cameos for fan service sake.
"What story are we going to tell next?"
"Well, people really like Obi Wan. Why don't we tell an Obi Wan story?"
"Well, do we have a compelling story to tell?"
"We could set it between episodes 3 and 4! That way Obi Wan could meet x y z and we could see Luke and Leia as kids!"
"Start writing it!"
::You will notice that the answer to the question "Do we have a compelling story to tell" was "here are some cameos". Because thats all star wars is now.::
We could tell a Han Solo story!
Then he could meet Young Lando, get the ship! Get his boots! Get his vest! And run into other cameos!
Lance845 wrote: Yup. I don't think Lucas film has any fething idea what the hell makes for good compelling stories. At this point it's a non stop parade of fan service cameos for fan service sake.
"What story are we going to tell next?"
"Well, people really like Obi Wan. Why don't we tell an Obi Wan story?"
"Well, do we have a compelling story to tell?"
"We could set it between episodes 3 and 4! That way Obi Wan could meet x y z and we could see Luke and Leia as kids!"
"Start writing it!"
::You will notice that the answer to the question "Do we have a compelling story to tell" was "here are some cameos". Because thats all star wars is now.::
We could tell a Han Solo story!
Then he could meet Young Lando, get the ship! Get his boots! Get his vest! And run into other cameos!
Like who?!
We can tease Darth Maul! People LOVE Darth Maul!
Get writing!
Yup, literally just memberberries and nostalgia bait as the basis for shows rather than well crafted narratives with a point to the story. Feels like ads to watch the next show for you to consume rather than something that was made to address an actual area of interest in the lore for fans. (as you could tell from the weird Mando episodes in BoB).
You can also tell from all the starwars street in Mando.
They actually HAD a good set of new characters with a good new story and they just couldn't help shoe horning in a rotating cast of pre established character from episodes 1-6.
It's gross. There is literally an entire galaxy of people they could meet but it's got to be them.
LordofHats wrote: Honeslty it's pretty easy to say Kenobi is better than Boba Fett. As time has done on I look at BoBF and think it was a waste of time.
Only the last three episodes of that show are worth watching. The rest is a bunch of time wasting nonsense in-between a very bland dances with wolves remake.
Kenobi meanwhile is just... That'll do pig? Something that's kind of struck me as Disney+ TV series continue is how time inefficient they are. Don't get me wrong I like quite a few of them but is Moon Knight really six episodes? Are you sure? Like really really sure? Cause I swear they could have slapped that entire series into a standard 2-2.5 hour Marvel film and not cut anything. It's weird how much time is spent in these shows chewing the scenery, walking through halls, and basically just padding out the run time with stuff that's neat enough to watch but at the end I have to wonder if it served any purpose at all beyond padding the run time.
The problem is that Disney isn't looking to make art. They're looking to exploit a thirsty and mostly starved fanbase for profit. They're not doing their best, they're doing what market research tells them will make the most immediate profit.
Quark, in DS9's "Little Green Men" said it best. "The speed of technological progress isn't as important as short-term, quarterly gains."
And that is what Disney's higher ups are looking for.
Lance845 wrote: You can also tell from all the starwars street in Mando.
They actually HAD a good set of new characters with a good new story and they just couldn't help shoe horning in a rotating cast of pre established character from episodes 1-6.
It's gross. There is literally an entire galaxy of people they could meet but it's got to be them.
Lance845 wrote: You can also tell from all the starwars street in Mando.
They actually HAD a good set of new characters with a good new story and they just couldn't help shoe horning in a rotating cast of pre established character from episodes 1-6.
It's gross. There is literally an entire galaxy of people they could meet but it's got to be them.
if you don't like it maybe don't watch it?
Hey look! We are here on this discussion forum to discuss things. Discussion includes criticism. I am not interested in sitting in a echo chamber where only the people who like the things I like have universally positive things to say about it.
Maybe if you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion you shouldn't waste time posting the shallowest of responses?
Lance845 wrote: You can also tell from all the starwars street in Mando.
They actually HAD a good set of new characters with a good new story and they just couldn't help shoe horning in a rotating cast of pre established character from episodes 1-6.
It's gross. There is literally an entire galaxy of people they could meet but it's got to be them.
if you don't like it maybe don't watch it?
I always find this to be a terrible take when it comes to people handling criticism of a show. If it's so good for you to be so flippant, you should be able to defend it at some level rather than try to handwave the valid issues people have brought up for the show so far. It also doesn't help that I am a fan of Star Wars and that's precisely why I'm disappointed because you know they could do way better than what they've given us so far. If we don't voice our concern or dislike towards it, that's effectively giving Disney the green light that this stuff should be continued, which is not something I want to do. You might argue that they won't change course (and under Kathleen Kennedy, I would agree with you), but it's better than basically rewarding them for mediocre work.
Also, I usually give a show 2-3 episodes before coming to some type of preliminary conclusion of whether it's worth slogging through the rest. Given how short this series is, I'm basically just watching short clips online at this point because it's not worth my time to invest any further based on what I've seen.
I know everyone likes to use KK as their punching bag but I really think it's the entire organization that is Lucas Film that is the problem.
The issue, as far as I can see, is that the organization is comprised of almost entirely fan boys at this point. It's like Kevin Smith writing a Batman comic (Cacophony - a comic run that reads like bad fan fiction that has been made into an actual comic). The original Trilogy was full of people doing jobs who could and would tell George Lucas no. And the farther away from the theatrical release we got the more Lucas Film the organization became fans and yes men who never told Lucas anything but "Of course! Great Idea!". The making of the prequel trilogy documentaries highlight this VERY well.
And then we get Dave Filoni coming in with Clone Wars. And suddenly this fan boy with a couple good ideas has become the new George Lucas and his bad fan fiction writing method becomes the way the new content gets made.
So how do I get my fan made character to interact with all my favorite characters in my fan fiction? How do I get my fan fiction on screen so everyone else can see it?
There appears to be a distinct lack of professionals driving an actual narrative to further the universe and tell interesting stories and instead a bunch of fans looking to see the shallowest most fan fictiony mash-ups they can possibly get.
This isn't REALLY KK (Not saying she is blameless, but a team leader can only accomplish what they can with the team they have). And it's been going on since long before Disney purchased them. This is a systemic issue in Lucas Film all together.
Nobody is establishing fundamental criteria for a project to get made the way KF is doing for Marvel. KF says, it has to tell a meaningful story for the character itself. It needs to be a good stand alone story. It needs to feed into the broader meta narrative and feed into the bigger story going on. A show like Obi Wan could never get made under the criteria that KF set for Marvel. Boba Fette wouldn't have either. Most of SW wouldn't have.
The Monkeys are running the Zoo. No wonder they keep throwing gak at us.
Meta analaysis aside, the Obi Won show does drive home this is a show for kids that adults inexplicably watch.
That or the level of competence in a galaxy far far away is very low. The traitor imperial officer having a chat with Euan, whilst sitting next to her colleagues, about how to do sneaky things in the base, combined with the ability to hide someone obviously walking beside you under a cloak was hilarious. Beyond bad, I feel the moments are ripe for years of parody. The baffling thing is is how incompetent are the rebels to have taken that long to defeat the empire...
Even post soviet Russia levels of incompetence and corruption wouldn't stop you spotting there is clearly someone hiding under a cloak...
OK, my burning question is... Is Luke's guardian, Uncle Owen, really an uncle/relation somewhere to him? How on earth (or Tatooine) do they explain why Darth Vader did not look up this 'uncle' to see if Luke was hiding?
Was it really that hard of a bread crumb to follow? Or was this the first of the enormous plot points we gleefully overlooked from ANH?
MDSW wrote: OK, my burning question is... Is Luke's guardian, Uncle Owen, really an uncle/relation somewhere to him? How on earth (or Tatooine) do they explain why Darth Vader did not look up this 'uncle' to see if Luke was hiding?
Was it really that hard of a bread crumb to follow? Or was this the first of the enormous plot points we gleefully overlooked from ANH?
Arguably it’s a plot hole from Return of the Jedi, when we first for sure know Vader is Luke’s Dad
Yes, Owen is Anakin's step brother, he was the son of the man that Shmi married after she was freed from slavery.
It's a long time since I saw Ep3 (I try not to watch it any more than I have to) but IIRC Anakin/Vader has no idea that Padme gives birth before she dies, so I think he pieces together who Luke is further down the track, and obviously doesn't know about Leia at all until the very end, but I could be wrong.
Isn't Padme sporting a fake baby bump at her funeral so Anakin/Vader was most likely unaware that he had offspring until after the first Death Star went pop and ISB or whoever researched the pilot that done wrecked their best toy
MDSW wrote: OK, my burning question is... Is Luke's guardian, Uncle Owen, really an uncle/relation somewhere to him? How on earth (or Tatooine) do they explain why Darth Vader did not look up this 'uncle' to see if Luke was hiding?
Was it really that hard of a bread crumb to follow? Or was this the first of the enormous plot points we gleefully overlooked from ANH?
It wasn't really a plot hole. Anakin met Owen in passing the night his mother died, and immediately rushed off to Genosis to have sexy arena battles with Padme and giant cats.
But as far as we know, Vader didn't know about any surviving kids. The name 'Luke Skywalker' wasn't on anyone's radar until after the battle of Yavin, and before Empire Strikes Back (where he was obsessively pursuing Han and Leia as path to 'young Skywalker'). At that point Owen didn't matter, because Luke is already running around the galaxy. The EU material expanded on things between Episode 4 and 5, and Luke's name vaguely gets outed at some point, and Vader connects it to the pilot 'strong in the Force' and then himself. Most of what he does from that point on is pretty focused on Luke.
---
Of course, _now_ thanks to this series, it -is- a plot hole, because Owen now has a personal interaction with an obesssed Inquisitor with his mind fully ablaze about 'Luke Skywalker' after a heated argument with Obi-wan Kenobi, and making sidelong glances to the latter's hiding place. And was saved by plot armor and dish-hat inquisitor being fed up with the 'gutter-rat, droid-owning Sister' daring to be above whatever bizarre prejudices are a factor in their tiny group.
All because we just had to have all those easter eggs all together on Star Wars street.
We could have had an intensely personal quest of Obi-wan setting on a training mission set by the ghost of Quaff-down Gin, where he comes to terms with Vader's identity and interacts with some Clone Wars plot hook, but instead we get this weird contortion trying to not violate canon while trying to shove in as many nostalgia buttons as possible. So many that there isn't a lot of room for story or breathing room. And it manages to be oddly boring as well, because we know everyone will wander back to their starting marks for New Hope.
I'd care about not-Claudia Black and angry Inquisitor, but I don't know if they're in other secondary material and they automatically live, or if they automatically die at the end of this. Either way, the stakes are real low.
As the current comics are canon, the official version is Vader did not know he had surviving kids. He discovered Luke was his son via Boba Fett who he had sent to find out the identity of the pilot who destroyed the Death Star.
We could argue that if Vader could sense Kenobi, he should’ve sense Luke.
But. My argument on that?
First, Luke had barley begin his training then. And given Vader’s history with Kenobi, it might’ve been like Peppermint to a Tracker Dog - it struggles to smell anything else over that stronger scent. At least according to the criminals of Ankh Morpork.
Likewise during the Battle of Yavin, Vader isn’t actually looking for a Force Sensitive. It’s something he only clocks when he struggles to shoot Luke down, before being rudely interrupted by Han and Chewie’s timely intervention.
It’s been a while since I read them, but it’s that very interrupted observation that made him want to track that pilot down?
We could argue that if Vader could sense Kenobi, he should’ve sense Luke.
But. My argument on that?
First, Luke had barley begin his training then. And given Vader’s history with Kenobi, it might’ve been like Peppermint to a Tracker Dog - it struggles to smell anything else over that stronger scent. At least according to the criminals of Ankh Morpork.
Likewise during the Battle of Yavin, Vader isn’t actually looking for a Force Sensitive. It’s something he only clocks when he struggles to shoot Luke down, before being rudely interrupted by Han and Chewie’s timely intervention.
It’s been a while since I read them, but it’s that very interrupted observation that made him want to track that pilot down?
Isn't the Force some sort of sentient energy too? It's not a consistent tool in and on itself. If the Force itself doesn't want Luke to be sensed or found then it conceals him pretty darn well. We also have basically know nothing about how a Jedi or a Sith actually feels or senses when they sense another person's presence through the Force. It appears Force sensitive people can sense one another in close proximity under most circumstances, but it also seem to be able to work literally worlds apart for people familiar with one another. The vagueness of how the Force works and how you utilizes it pretty much allows anything to go in any way.
This is one of the reason why Star Wars is both very entertaining and often compelling despite being largely garbage. Everything is a bit up in the air which allows for maximum fantasy and mystery.
It seems to depend on the movie or show. Early on, the Force was plot convenience. Prequels and on, it often feels like video game skill unlocks.
Though we are told Sith are better at hiding, or at least Sidious, Maul and Dooku were. Vader seems fairly consistently bad at it. Palpatine could somehow be invisible to the force while sitting directly in front of the entire Jedi council and mugging 'look how evil I am' directly at the camera.
The gamification of the Force is probably the biggest issue with modern Star Wars. It was never written as a rigid power system, but ever since the original RPG introduced Dark Side Points, games have started rigidly applying what it can do in such a way that we get the kind of demands for strict power scaling rather than letting the plot go where the Force takes it.
LunarSol wrote: The gamification of the Force is probably the biggest issue with modern Star Wars.
It's an issue in fiction in general honestly.
Ever since the 90s everything has increasingly been defined by increasingly rigid/defined power systems. There's not a whole lot of 'magic' in magic anymore. It's mostly just alt-science or applied phlebotinum.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Isn't Padme sporting a fake baby bump at her funeral so Anakin/Vader was most likely unaware that he had offspring until after the first Death Star went pop and ISB or whoever researched the pilot that done wrecked their best toy
Yes. The babies were supposed to be dead. Emperor even said to vader he killed padme. Vader didn't know there were kids to search for.
Add to that heavy dislike of anything that might cause anakin personality to resurface...why would he go there? Hunt obi wan but he had no reason to think he's there either.
LunarSol wrote: The gamification of the Force is probably the biggest issue with modern Star Wars.
It's an issue in fiction in general honestly.
Ever since the 90s everything has increasingly been defined by increasingly rigid/defined power systems. There's not a whole lot of 'magic' in magic anymore. It's mostly just alt-science or applied phlebotinum.
I think this is because of a growing fascination fan bases have with minutia, plus the inevitable video game adaptations of everything so you have to have some crunch.
Magic is more interesting when it has well defined rules and isn't a handwaivium plot device because when it is the latter it is very very difficult to tell a compelling story without it being ruined. I think the only person who truly did a good job with extremely vague handwavium plot magic was Tolkien and to a lesser extent CS Lewis. Lesser author's lose a lot of quality if they have ill defined world mechanics, and making a rigid magic system is itself a compelling story element so it is a good path to use.
Modern authors are less capable of using more complex and interwoven story telling and character development that can compensate for a vague magic system's potential issues. So they make up by having a more rigid magic system and using those rigid rules to drive their plots. This doesn't make the end result worse overall. Detailed and rigid magic systems with well defined rules can be used to make excellent plots when used correctly.
But you know. Obi Wan Kenobi starts hanging out calling himself Old Ben Kenobi while wearing his Jedi robes.
And we still have 3 more episodes of this to see how he disappears without anyone gunning for Leia or him again for another 10+ years.
Because no one in the Empire proper meets or sees Kenobi on Tatooine, a planet they very recently swept, and found a rogue Jedi on. the first time anyone makes contact with him is on the space-shanghai planet. At this point, they have absolutely zero evidence to link him to tatooine, so why start thier?
With Leia, im guessing part of the issue is unless they can actaully get some real, stands up in court evidence, she'd be basically untouchable once she gets back to Alderann and back into her security (which she will be a lot less flippant about evading now). Shes still part of the imperial Elite, and even 8-9 years later in A New Hope, her rank is sufficient that even the captain of Vader's own star destroyer is arguing back to vader about the legality of it.
Personally I hate the sentient force concept. Every time you argue against highly improbable things happening, and people meeting, and you get told the force wills it. So… there’s no point to the story because the force wills the good guys to win and no one really has any free will of their own?
AduroT wrote: Personally I hate the sentient force concept. Every time you argue against highly improbable things happening, and people meeting, and you get told the force wills it. So… there’s no point to the story because the force wills the good guys to win and no one really has any free will of their own?
Isn't that the whole story of Kotor 2, with Kriea concluding The Force just jerks people about in an endless cycle of good / evil (without figuring out she may well be being played as part of the cycle)
Battle scene was good fun. Third Sister was of course heavily telegraphed, but when was Star Wars ever terribly subtle?
Prequel recreation scenes were hella impressive, and I don’t think they de-aged Hayden any? Perhaps a digital nip/tuck here and there though.
Loved the Imperial Landing Craft. Not sure if I’ve seen those before?
Little Leia continues to heavily impress. I know I’ve said it before, but so see such a young actress successfully deliver echoes of Leia and Padmé is astounding.
Some very impressive Force use by Vader. Whoever is in the suit is a capable physical actor. His anger is palpable.
So far it’s definitely making up for the rather lacklustre Part 4
I told you he wasn’t ded! Rather enjoying the Dark Side Back Stabbery. We finally see some hint of competence in the baddies, even if it would be put to better use externally rather than internally.
Generally solid acting throughout. Far happier with this series now.
Season 1 finale next week, and I’m looking forward to it. If the rumours of reshoots to leave the finale open ended for more is true, I think we might be seeing signs of that in the final scenes of this part.
To those saying Vader had no idea that Kenobi was on Tatooine, Old Ben Kenobi is known on Tatooine, his old home planet where they first met. You don't think the empire put out some kind of APB on the name Kenobi? Especially after the events of this show?
AduroT wrote: Personally I hate the sentient force concept. Every time you argue against highly improbable things happening, and people meeting, and you get told the force wills it. So… there’s no point to the story because the force wills the good guys to win and no one really has any free will of their own?
Isn't that the whole story of Kotor 2, with Kriea concluding The Force just jerks people about in an endless cycle of good / evil (without figuring out she may well be being played as part of the cycle)
I think that was vaguely the intended story. But between Obsidian missing milestones and cut content, her story was just that you, the player, were always wrong no matter what choices you made and she wanted a lightsaber to the face.
Lance845 wrote: To those saying Vader had no idea that Kenobi was on Tatooine, Old Ben Kenobi is known on Tatooine, his old home planet where they first met. You don't think the empire put out some kind of APB on the name Kenobi? Especially after the events of this show?
Don't forget Tatooine is basically a backwater in the middle of nowhere that no one in the interior of the Galaxy really cares about one bit. It's so much in the back alleys that its run by mobsters (Hutts). Even at the height of power of the Imperium, Hutts still clearly command power on the world even with Imperial troops marching all over.
And an APB on someone called Kenobi. The setting is set over a Galaxy; the size and number of people within that is vast. You are going well into trillions of people from all walks of life. Actually finding a single person in that setting is a huge feat in of itself.
Some old guy with a name on a backwater world at the far end of the Galaxy that no one cares about and which Vader likely wants to avoid and forget about (since its only a source of pain for him). It's possible that the Empire wouldn't care to go looking. I think the issue is that the world is presented as quite important to viewers because so many key things happen there and we keep going back to it. So it feels really important to us and like a huge part of the story hinges on that world. That so many important things happen and relate to it that it should be the prime focus of the Empire. Yet its not, the Empire hardly knows it exists. The Emperor and Vader have no idea there are any kids to hunt for and even if there were, there's no Jedi to find them, teach them or train them. There's basically so little threat they look toward others; like rebellious uprisings; politicians causing trouble in the senate.
Don't forget by the time of movie 4 the Jedi are almost legends (which considering how they were operating in films 1-3 is kind of a shock that so little time has passed; would have been better to have thrown another generation or two of time into things). Basically someone saying they have Jedi powers is like someone walking up to you in the street and saying they have the powers of Merlin.
I think he should look effortless in it. He’s driven by his anger and thirst for revenge, is still the most powerful Force Adept, and has had thorough Sith and Jedi training.
LunarSol wrote: The gamification of the Force is probably the biggest issue with modern Star Wars.
It's an issue in fiction in general honestly.
Ever since the 90s everything has increasingly been defined by increasingly rigid/defined power systems. There's not a whole lot of 'magic' in magic anymore. It's mostly just alt-science or applied phlebotinum.
I think this is because of a growing fascination fan bases have with minutia, plus the inevitable video game adaptations of everything so you have to have some crunch.
Magic is more interesting when it has well defined rules and isn't a handwaivium plot device because when it is the latter it is very very difficult to tell a compelling story without it being ruined. I think the only person who truly did a good job with extremely vague handwavium plot magic was Tolkien and to a lesser extent CS Lewis. Lesser author's lose a lot of quality if they have ill defined world mechanics, and making a rigid magic system is itself a compelling story element so it is a good path to use.
Modern authors are less capable of using more complex and interwoven story telling and character development that can compensate for a vague magic system's potential issues. So they make up by having a more rigid magic system and using those rigid rules to drive their plots. This doesn't make the end result worse overall. Detailed and rigid magic systems with well defined rules can be used to make excellent plots when used correctly.
It depends on what your story is about really. If the focus on the story is the use of the power system itself, then hard rules are important. The goal is to put your protagonist into a situation where they are outmatched in conventional strength but can implement the power system in clever ways to win. You can actually do this with less rigid systems as well, but it requires spending time setting the parameters of each encounter that most stories don't have time for.
Loose systems work best when they're not really the focus of the story, but more like a natural phenomena. One of the reasons the Force works in the OT is that its generally not treated as something that can be controlled. It's more like the weather and while it can be directed to your advantage, it almost doesn't work at all in the few instances where Force users come into contact with one another. This leaves the Force free to mostly facilitate character interactions that are the real heart of the films.
This episode was OK. I had to go back and rewatch the start of it in order to confirm if that twist in the action sequence was foreshadowed at all (it was, but very, very quickly), I'm still not generally impressed with the action scenes we've seen so far, but between the passable action and relatively decent character moments, I'm more OK with this episode than last week's.
LunarSol wrote: The gamification of the Force is probably the biggest issue with modern Star Wars.
It's an issue in fiction in general honestly.
Ever since the 90s everything has increasingly been defined by increasingly rigid/defined power systems. There's not a whole lot of 'magic' in magic anymore. It's mostly just alt-science or applied phlebotinum.
For me this was a big problem in the EU (now Legends) continuities, along with the general assumption that everybody across the galaxy had the same idea of what the Force, Jedi, and Sith are. Where everybody knows that the Force does X, no one has any doubts or reservations about the Jedi having exclusivity rights on the 'correct' teachings about it, and everybody knows about the Sith to the point where their name is incorporated into many in-universe swear words.
It seems to me they workshopped the idea that there could be other effective religious interpretations of what the Force is and how to utilize it during production of Clone Wars, with the Witches of Dathomir, and when Disney reset the canon the story group was free to run away with that idea, so now you see Jedi in the High Republic era all have very different personal interpretations of what the Force 'feels' like, or the miriad of previously suppressed force cults scrambling for relevance following the Empire's fall in Alphabet Squadron, or the Sequel Trilogy's willingness to depict new and interesting force abilities in every movie.
Lance845 wrote: Don't forget by the time of movie 4 the Jedi are almost legends (which considering how they were operating in films 1-3 is kind of a shock that so little time has passed; would have been better to have thrown another generation or two of time into things). Basically someone saying they have Jedi powers is like someone walking up to you in the street and saying they have the powers of Merlin.
Yes I remember as a kid watching the first film and thinking the Jedi were from a mythical long past time. Not in fact a couple of decades ago. Hell currently we have more time between the end of the Soviet Empire and today than Star Wars has from the fall of the Republic and the start of Star Wars...
On that…I was born in 1980, so my formative years were during the tail end of the Cold War, with it’s arguable height in the Cuban Missile Crisis being a mere 18 years later.
Yet….to me at least, The Cold War feels super abstract. I’m aware it was a thing, but it never felt like a thing to me.
So there is some precedent at least for short term memory.
Vader's backstory after the OT was always kind of a problem if you really sat down and tried to make a timeline out of it. Luke's mother was always a bit of an impossible element to work in. The only way it could really work is if the prequel trilogy was something like:
Episode 1: Adventure where Obi-Wan meets Anakain that ends in the start of the Clone Wars
Episode 2: Basically Revenge of the Sith, ending in Order 66 and Vader going on to hunt the remaining Jedi. End of the Clone Wars, rise of the Empire.
Episode 3: Vader hunts down Obi-Wan decades later on Mustafar and they have their duel. Obi-Wan discovers Anakin's children, etc.
The problem is making Padme a character in such an arc and not just... the mother. It more or less demands her loving Vader and never Anakin for the gap between 2-3 to make any sense at all and that is a really hard character to write.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On that…I was born in 1980, so my formative years were during the tail end of the Cold War, with it’s arguable height in the Cuban Missile Crisis being a mere 18 years later.
Yet….to me at least, The Cold War feels super abstract. I’m aware it was a thing, but it never felt like a thing to me.
So there is some precedent at least for short term memory.
Indeed, it doesn't take long for generations to forget things. However whilst something like the Cold War feels abstract, its still something you accept happened, even if it was mostly elsewhere. Plus you can talk to loads of prime-source people even now who went through more direct experiences of it. There's media out there about them and quite a lot of at least general information and reference.
Meanwhile in Starwars we go from an era where even a basic junkshop owner in the backstreets of the back end of a desert world on the fringe is aware of Jedi and Jedi mind tricks. Jedi were certainly rare, but decently known about. Fastforward and in New Hope Jedi are all but myth. No prime sources or people who met them; no lingering memories or references. Even mature members of the upper Imperial armed forces consider it a dead religion with no threat; and they have Vader mind-choking them.
I do feel like the pacing skipped a whole generation. That films 1-3 should have happened to Anakin's father and that Anakin should have been one of the twins who then grew up in a much more Jedi muted and Imperial controlled world where prime sources would have been lost to old age and where memory and archives were purged by the Empire. Giving enough room them for Obiwan to age up; for memories of the Republic to vanish and for Jedi to be all but legend and myth.
Or be really sneaky and throw Luke and Leia into cryo sleep for a few decades
LunarSol wrote: Vader's backstory after the OT was always kind of a problem if you really sat down and tried to make a timeline out of it. Luke's mother was always a bit of an impossible element to work in. The only way it could really work is if the prequel trilogy was something like:
Episode 1: Adventure where Obi-Wan meets Anakain that ends in the start of the Clone Wars
Episode 2: Basically Revenge of the Sith, ending in Order 66 and Vader going on to hunt the remaining Jedi. End of the Clone Wars, rise of the Empire.
Episode 3: Vader hunts down Obi-Wan decades later on Mustafar and they have their duel. Obi-Wan discovers Anakin's children, etc.
The problem is making Padme a character in such an arc and not just... the mother. It more or less demands her loving Vader and never Anakin for the gap between 2-3 to make any sense at all and that is a really hard character to write.
... not really?
Obi-wan could have easily taken on an adult Anakin as a student during Ep1, whether the start of the Clone Wars was there or not.
However much time passes during the films (and the Clone Wars), Padme and Anakin could have easily met, actually fallen in love, gotten started on kids, and then something happens that sets Anakin down the dark side. Corruption, extreme situation, whatever. There was plenty of room for her to be a character and have a real relationship, (and not just be episode 3's plot device)
Based on what information is in the original films, the timespan of the Clone War_s_, was really undefined with plenty of room for character arcs and backstory.
Lucas simply made a mess by deciding it was short, and that a child and teenager were necessary for the start of...local but galaxy wide economic warfare, and wasted time on an extraneous teacher instigating things and dying in an embarrassing fashion.
There was lots of room for the far more interesting stories that Obi and Anni would start to reference in the prequels but then cut short as they finished green-screen walking to their next scene. Padme could have been a part of those stories rather than a random political figure of no lasting consequence.
Overread wrote: Don't forget by the time of movie 4 the Jedi are almost legends (which considering how they were operating in films 1-3 is kind of a shock that so little time has passed; would have been better to have thrown another generation or two of time into things). Basically someone saying they have Jedi powers is like someone walking up to you in the street and saying they have the powers of Merlin.
Yes I remember as a kid watching the first film and thinking the Jedi were from a mythical long past time. Not in fact a couple of decades ago. Hell currently we have more time between the end of the Soviet Empire and today than Star Wars has from the fall of the Republic and the start of Star Wars...
I agree. The time between the fall of the Republic and start of A New Hope really bugged me once I sat down and thought about it.
Even until Palpatine dies, that is NOT a lot of time. But somehow we have hundreds of secret weapon projects, dozens of new trooper types, entire careers in the Imperial military, and all kinds of junk that make it seem like it is an empire that has been established for at least 60+ years to have that much sway and as many outposts and offices that it does across an entire galaxy.
LunarSol wrote: Vader's backstory after the OT was always kind of a problem if you really sat down and tried to make a timeline out of it. Luke's mother was always a bit of an impossible element to work in. The only way it could really work is if the prequel trilogy was something like:
Episode 1: Adventure where Obi-Wan meets Anakain that ends in the start of the Clone Wars
Episode 2: Basically Revenge of the Sith, ending in Order 66 and Vader going on to hunt the remaining Jedi. End of the Clone Wars, rise of the Empire.
Episode 3: Vader hunts down Obi-Wan decades later on Mustafar and they have their duel. Obi-Wan discovers Anakin's children, etc.
The problem is making Padme a character in such an arc and not just... the mother. It more or less demands her loving Vader and never Anakin for the gap between 2-3 to make any sense at all and that is a really hard character to write.
... not really?
Obi-wan could have easily taken on an adult Anakin as a student during Ep1, whether the start of the Clone Wars was there or not.
However much time passes during the films (and the Clone Wars), Padme and Anakin could have easily met, actually fallen in love, gotten started on kids, and then something happens that sets Anakin down the dark side. Corruption, extreme situation, whatever. There was plenty of room for her to be a character and have a real relationship, (and not just be episode 3's plot device)
Based on what information is in the original films, the timespan of the Clone War_s_, was really undefined with plenty of room for character arcs and backstory.
Lucas simply made a mess by deciding it was short, and that a child and teenager were necessary for the start of...local but galaxy wide economic warfare, and wasted time on an extraneous teacher instigating things and dying in an embarrassing fashion.
There was lots of room for the far more interesting stories that Obi and Anni would start to reference in the prequels but then cut short as they finished green-screen walking to their next scene. Padme could have been a part of those stories rather than a random political figure of no lasting consequence.
Well, the limiting factor is Luke's age. If you want more time between the founding of the Empire and ANH than you either have to have Luke's mother stick with Anakin after he helps extinguish the Jedi or you have to have Anakin's corruption occur long after the fall of the Republic. The latter is an interesting idea. Have Obi-Wan and Anakin survive Order 66 together in Episode 2 and have Episode 3 take place a decade or so later, with the two of them looking for a way to stop Sidious with Anakin going down increasingly dark paths that ultimately leads to his corruption. Certainly the past way to do it while keeping Padme more or less the same character or even having an opportunity to do more. This does kind of require a competent fall to the Dark Side storyline, which honestly has never really been done.
Ultimately when it comes to "fixing" the prequel trilogy, I think no matter how you slice it the problem comes down to Episode 1/2 covering a lot of the same ground. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Episode 1's premise and plot is a lot stronger and better left intact, but would greatly benefit from the characters and consequences of Episode 2. Like its pretty obvious having Padme, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon encounter Hayden Christensen on Tatooine as this overconfident podracer who doesn't realize he can do it because he's Force sensitive is a way better hook than what we got. By the same token, you make the debate in the senate chamber about whether to send (clone) troops to break the blockade and have Dooku there threatening to leave the Republic if military action was taken or something like that. Episode 1 ends with Palpatine in power and the first battle of the Clone Wars and away will go.
As an aside, one of the things I think Episode 3 does really well is establish that by the end of the Clone Wars, the Republic had already been the Empire for years in all but name. Always kind of appreciated that, though to a degree I think its undermined by the Clone Wars cartoon a bit.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Yes I remember as a kid watching the first film and thinking the Jedi were from a mythical long past time. Not in fact a couple of decades ago. Hell currently we have more time between the end of the Soviet Empire and today than Star Wars has from the fall of the Republic and the start of Star Wars...
Uh...?
Ok, Luke's age isn't a limiting factor at all (not to mention that we weren't talking about time between founding the Empire and ANH, but 'making Padme a character')
But even then, it isn't a problem. As you say at the end:
As an aside, one of the things I think Episode 3 does really well is establish that by the end of the Clone Wars, the Republic had already been the Empire for years in all but name.
The formal declaration of the Empire doesn't actually matter.
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The other part of it is that, going by what's in the Original Trilogy, the weird reversal where the Jedi were fighting _for_ the burgeoning Empire against the (catspaw) Separatists didn't have to be the narrative. Palpatine could have declared the Empire decades before that and the Jedi could have aided legitimate Separatists against the already established Empire.
That way, Anakin could have come in the last decade of the Clone Wars as a pilot, trained as one of the last few Jedi under Obi-Wan and fallen as basically the last act of the Clone Wars. Manipulated into turning traitor against a promise of safety for his family or almost anything other than self-fulfilling prophecy is self-fulfilling.
Then you have a 50-60 year Empire rather than one that lasted ~20, and a fall of the Republic that was legitimately several generations ago, and Jedi that were slowly killed off over the course of a long war.
Instead Lucas rushed things in his mad fit of cramming as many visuals on screen at once.
Newest episode is as expected when it comes to Reva's betrayal and IMO, the fight between her and Vader wasn't exciting even if Vader manhandled her as he should have. What I don't like is the attempts at constant lightsaber stabby death fakeouts. We've already seen the Grand Inquisitor survive getting stabbed, and they try to do the same thing with Reva and little explanation why Vader didn't just finish the job with her by cutting off her head.
Also, it also kind of starts setting up questions as to how Qui-Gonn didn't survive his stabbing from Darth Maul if all these piddly dark side users who were of lower power than Qui Gonn were able to live after being stabbed.
I thought the way the latest episode intertwined the flashback with "current" action to show how much Obi Wan and Anakin know and learned (and in the latter's case still hadn't) from each other was really well done.
My initial reply was to the concern that it felt like there needed to be more time between the fall of the Republic and ANH. My point was just that this was always a tricky balance that was hard to make sense of even before the prequels existed, back when Padme didn't exist and we just had "Luke and Leia's mother" as a concept. It was always a tough timeline to not have some gap. I think the assumption has always been that she lived out her days hiding from Vader who never knew she was pregnant, but its a pretty convoluted scenario no matter how you slice it.
I don't find the reversal of the Clone Wars weird at all. Back in '99 while there was a lot of disappointment in TPM, my favorite decision was and will always be Palpatine staging a war to seize power. The fall of a republic into fascism makes the world so much more interesting than simple conquest. It's the whole reason I left TPM optimistic, even if the movies wouldn't really make good on the potential that would be left up to the cartoons.
It was always a tough timeline to not have some gap. I think the assumption has always been that she lived out her days hiding from Vader who never knew she was pregnant, but its a pretty convoluted scenario no matter how you slice it.
I guess I'm just confused by that assumption and why its a hard bridge to gap or convoluted. L&L are about 20 in a New Hope and their parents could have been together for years.
I've known people who married had kids and got divorced in less than two years, let alone decades. With a war on, it doesn't even have to be that complicated, especially given that they were clearly orphaned.
The fall of a republic into fascism makes the world so much more interesting than simple conquest
Sure, that can be interesting if done well. But it was a farcical 'Curses, foiled again... just as planned' over and over and over, with a toddler's view of political machinations.
-----
So, Season 1: Episode 5 Part V certainly lives up to the episode title.
Its definitely the fifth part.
Also, the de-aging really didn't work on Hayden.
And every. single. person. was holding an Idiot Ball.
What the hell?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimskul wrote: Newest episode is as expected when it comes to Reva's betrayal and IMO, the fight between her and Vader wasn't exciting even if Vader manhandled her as he should have. What I don't like is the attempts at constant lightsaber stabby death fakeouts. We've already seen the Grand Inquisitor survive getting stabbed, and they try to do the same thing with Reva and little explanation why Vader didn't just finish the job with her by cutting off her head.
Also, it also kind of starts setting up questions as to how Qui-Gonn didn't survive his stabbing from Darth Maul if all these piddly dark side users who were of lower power than Qui Gonn were able to live after being stabbed.
Or indeed anyone. Hey, stormtroopers, there's a wounded rebel flopping around on the ground and she's still holding a gun. Shoot her again. Hey, she's now holding another thing up. So you can all clearly see it. Oh. Nevermind, then.
Heavy blaster cannon vs door goes on for all the some time as well. Don't try shooting the rocks next to the door or anything or... oh, no wait, she just cut it a bit and its open now. Wow, that tension melted like butter.
Good thing no one fell back. Or boarded the transport ahead of time... but I guess that didn't matter anyway.
Kept a secret for 10 years. Right now is the time to call a friend? Really. Right now? And that was a stupidly specific call to make. Murderous, too, as it managed to one-shot my suspension of disbelief.
And you waited until after he was no longer distracted to sneak attack. That was... no, that was just dumb.
(Why was her lightsaber pinwheel intact at the end after Vader broke it apart?)
And of course you don't do maintenance on your underground railroad escape routes OR escape transports. No.
I'm going to go watch more Disney musicals with teenagers to remind myself that Disney is capable of better shows with more competent characters
Lance845 wrote: To those saying Vader had no idea that Kenobi was on Tatooine, Old Ben Kenobi is known on Tatooine, his old home planet where they first met. You don't think the empire put out some kind of APB on the name Kenobi? Especially after the events of this show?
And then...chase about millions of leads?
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On that…I was born in 1980, so my formative years were during the tail end of the Cold War, with it’s arguable height in the Cuban Missile Crisis being a mere 18 years later.
Yet….to me at least, The Cold War feels super abstract. I’m aware it was a thing, but it never felt like a thing to me.
So there is some precedent at least for short term memory.
Also jedi were so few many planets would not see one in generation and most humans wouldn't even be near one ever hearing about them just in news.
Seems I was less impressed with this episode than most.
Spoiler:
The line-up and shoot the door Storm Troopers just looked stupid to me, as did the sudden lightsaber-to-door solution, which was especially annoying because we saw in Episode 1 that it takes lightsabers a long time to cut through a reinforced door. Then we had a repeat of the BoBF finale as people stand in the open and run away without getting shot.
The Reva reveal was obvious and the resulting duel was at least interesting in the sense that they're now incorporating much more use of the Force in their fights, but the actual lightsaber fighting continues to be underwhelming. It's also just stupid to me that Vader leaves Reva alive after the Grand Inquisitor has literally just revealed he survived the same wound.
The fact we know where everyone will be after the final episode is also seriously draining tension out of the story they're trying to tell. That's why including Leia still feels like a mistake to me. The big cliffhanger at the end of this episode is obviously not going to be a real problem given what we already know.
There were some cool moments though. Vader Force-pulling the ship was well done and it was good to see Anakin and Obi-Wan from the prequel era having a proper duel.
Hayden doesn't exactly look fresh in those flashbacks. I guess they didn't de-age him?
Grimskul wrote: Also, it also kind of starts setting up questions as to how Qui-Gonn didn't survive his stabbing from Darth Maul if all these piddly dark side users who were of lower power than Qui Gonn were able to live after being stabbed.
The line-up and shoot the door Storm Troopers just looked stupid to me, as did the sudden lightsaber-to-door solution, which was especially annoying because we saw in Episode 1 that it takes lightsabers a long time to cut through a reinforced door. Then we had a repeat of the BoBF finale as people stand in the open and run away without getting shot.
Spoiler:
Yeah, the parade ground formation is ridiculous. I reckon they want to show that there was a lot of Stormtroopers so as to make the attack look threatening. Once the action starts and Stormtroopers do what Stormtroopers do, there's no more opportunity for that.
I had the opposite problem with the door. Third Sister talks to Obi Wan, gets all emotional and distracted, and still stabs the door in the right place to remove the bar that's apparently the only thing that's keeping the door shut. Why didn't she use her glowy stick in the first place like every other Force user trying to get through a door and make the heavy weapon guys look like idiots instead?
Speaking of heavy weapon guys, not only did the Stormtroopers manage to hardly ever hit anyone while simultaneous putting a serious number of hits on the blaster proof shields, apparently the heavy weapons that were still in the back didn't add any support anymore? Or didn't hit? Or something? The evacuation would have been a lot more relaxed if the criminals had put their ability to massacre Stormtroopers while standing bunched up in the open without dying to better use.
I think I missed what happened to the Purge Troopers, so I guess they took another opportunity to not let these guys achieve anything.
but the actual lightsaber fighting continues to be underwhelming
Well that is a core problem with the tech. They want swingy fights that look dramatic, whilst ignoring if you had a weapon that could pierce anything you would use it like a rapier trying to stab them with the tip... Would keep your guard up better to, to deflect blaster shots.
Lance845 wrote: To those saying Vader had no idea that Kenobi was on Tatooine, Old Ben Kenobi is known on Tatooine, his old home planet where they first met. You don't think the empire put out some kind of APB on the name Kenobi? Especially after the events of this show?
And then...chase about millions of leads?
WHAT millions of leads? You think there is a planet of Kenobis out there some place? Obi Wan is the only Kenobi we ever heard of until we found out he had a brother. And yes. Vader would go find his brother and execute him and his entire family in his rage filled fury.
but the actual lightsaber fighting continues to be underwhelming
Well that is a core problem with the tech. They want swingy fights that look dramatic, whilst ignoring if you had a weapon that could pierce anything you would use it like a rapier trying to stab them with the tip... Would keep your guard up better to, to deflect blaster shots.
I'm more talking about the dynamic choreography (or lack thereof) than any realistic interpretation of lightsaber combat. One of the few redeeming features of Episode 3 for me were the lightsaber fights.
Lance845 wrote: To those saying Vader had no idea that Kenobi was on Tatooine, Old Ben Kenobi is known on Tatooine, his old home planet where they first met. You don't think the empire put out some kind of APB on the name Kenobi? Especially after the events of this show?
And then...chase about millions of leads?
WHAT millions of leads? You think there is a planet of Kenobis out there some place? Obi Wan is the only Kenobi we ever heard of until we found out he had a brother. And yes. Vader would go find his brother and execute him and his entire family in his rage filled fury.
Well yeah we only know a stupidly tiny number of characters.
The setting is based over a whole Galaxy. There likely IS a planets worth of Kenobi's out there. Or at least a small moon's worth.
Plus he's not Obi-wan; he's Ben. His name is changed. So long as Kenobi is like Smith in our world that might well be enough to hide him.
omg they killed sturdy robot dude, you bar-stewards
This weeks episode felt a bit stretched, like it was a 15 min movie sequence spun into a telly episode length, but hey lightsabers a go go so ill go 6/10
Lance845 wrote: To those saying Vader had no idea that Kenobi was on Tatooine, Old Ben Kenobi is known on Tatooine, his old home planet where they first met. You don't think the empire put out some kind of APB on the name Kenobi? Especially after the events of this show?
And then...chase about millions of leads?
WHAT millions of leads? You think there is a planet of Kenobis out there some place? Obi Wan is the only Kenobi we ever heard of until we found out he had a brother. And yes. Vader would go find his brother and execute him and his entire family in his rage filled fury.
Do you have any idea how many people share name with you? Hint: it's lot more than 0. On single planet. In huge galaxy.. You have same trouble as gw in zero idea of scales...
Hint: there's lot more than 100 humans or so like you Seem to think in the galaxy. There's 6 billion here. In small planet of ours. Which is 1. From who knows how many planets out there.
Enjoyed this one. Third finally got to stop feeling like a live action version of Second, good action overall and just a solid story. Certainly the one that felt the most like a movie sequence that got stretched to fit TV, but solid none the less.
Bail's call is a little on the nose and probably the thing that most feels like "added to make season 2 happen". Guy is apparently very bad at a job he's had for a long time. Next one we'll see of him will be... Rebel... Head...arters..... on.... Aldaraan.
Was Vader really showing off his Force abilities. He’s playing with Third Sister. Driving home just how utterly pointless her attack is.
Physically, his actions are incredibly measured. No desperation, just confidence - arguably a condescending level of confidence. He’s not hurried. At all. The fight is conducted at his pace entirely.
Watch his hand during it. It’s steady as a rock. There’s no real sense of him particularly exerting himself. Combined with the expressionless mask, and it’s positively creepy.
It’s the first time, on-screen, we’ve seen Vader not driven by anger. There’s no conflict within him dealing with her. I suspect others might disagree, but it’s the first fight we’ve seen him in where he’s not that personally invested. Putting her down is business. Rogue One, Kenobi and Luke are personal, or at least urgent for Rogue One.
Oddly, I’m not entirely sure it’s something that can really be repeated. It’s impactful here because it’s so different, without being out of character or jarring. That feels like a one off matter to me. Happy to be proven wrong of course.
Really hoping we have more flashbacks and less on Reva for the end. Love the lightsaber stuff and you know who. Reva parts were terrible. If they extend this to season 2 I'd want Reva to be finished next episode and not return. She's been lightsabered more than once already and nearly died. Lets 3 for 3 and end her next episode.
Ep5 is the best episode so far - just rewatched it.
Was Vader really showing off his Force abilities. He’s playing with Third Sister. Driving home just how utterly pointless her attack is.
Physically, his actions are incredibly measured. No desperation, just confidence - arguably a condescending level of confidence. He’s not hurried. At all. The fight is conducted at his pace entirely.
Watch his hand during it. It’s steady as a rock. There’s no real sense of him particularly exerting himself. Combined with the expressionless mask, and it’s positively creepy.
It’s the first time, on-screen, we’ve seen Vader not driven by anger. There’s no conflict within him dealing with her. I suspect others might disagree, but it’s the first fight we’ve seen him in where he’s not that personally invested. Putting her down is business. Rogue One, Kenobi and Luke are personal, or at least urgent for Rogue One.
Oddly, I’m not entirely sure it’s something that can really be repeated. It’s impactful here because it’s so different, without being out of character or jarring. That feels like a one off matter to me. Happy to be proven wrong of course.
It reminds me a bit of when he was pursuing Kanan and Ezra in the first episode of Season 2 of Rebels. There he gets the Terminator treatment, just walking towards them as this inevitable reaper that they can't even really slow down and can only hope to escape from.
I think the Rogue One hallway honestly has a bit of it as well, but definitely not as pronounced as this one.
Stevefamine wrote: Really hoping we have more flashbacks and less on Reva for the end. Love the lightsaber stuff and you know who. Reva parts were terrible. If they extend this to season 2 I'd want Reva to be finished next episode and not return. She's been lightsabered more than once already and nearly died. Lets 3 for 3 and end her next episode.
Ep5 is the best episode so far - just rewatched it.
Well….
Spoiler:
Provided Kenobi hasn’t changed any canon, Third Sister’s armour does turn up later in the timeline. Now that could still mean she does snuff it, her body being recovered much later on.
But, if the rumours are true and there were reshoots to the ending to open up further seasons? We might see her tracking Kenobi back to Tattooine, either for personal vengeance (given he totally used her to make good his own escape) or seek penance. Potentially even to look further into the message she found from Bail and save some kind of face? That’s three possibilities off the top of my head
Stevefamine wrote: Really hoping we have more flashbacks and less on Reva for the end. Love the lightsaber stuff and you know who. Reva parts were terrible. If they extend this to season 2 I'd want Reva to be finished next episode and not return. She's been lightsabered more than once already and nearly died. Lets 3 for 3 and end her next episode.
Ep5 is the best episode so far - just rewatched it.
Prediction time! Third Sister survives the season but comes back as a rogue in season 2, still on a quest for revenge but now also gunning for Obi-Wan. By the end of season 2 he manages to cure her of that dark side revenge thing and she ends up heroically sacrificing herself to help Obi Wan escape Vader for good and make A New Hope happen.
It reminds me a bit of when he was pursuing Kanan and Ezra in the first episode of Season 2 of Rebels. There he gets the Terminator treatment, just walking towards them as this inevitable reaper that they can't even really slow down and can only hope to escape from.
Or the ''fight'' against Vader at the end of Fallen Order
It reminds me a bit of when he was pursuing Kanan and Ezra in the first episode of Season 2 of Rebels. There he gets the Terminator treatment, just walking towards them as this inevitable reaper that they can't even really slow down and can only hope to escape from.
Or the ''fight'' against Vader at the end of Fallen Order
Lance845 wrote: Lets do it this way. How many people named Kenobi exist on Vader's home planet within non-air travel distance from a Skywalker?
1
But why would Vader even look on Tatooine?
The only person he knew there who had any importance to him was his own mother. Everyone else came onto the scene long after he left and after she died. He's no relation or family connections to them. He has no reason to consider it a viable place for anything to happen. Least of all his old teacher going there to hide his child. Whilst some events and the timeline of the first 3 films can sometimes mess up some things (like the afore mentioned rapid move of Jedi from fact to legend); the idea that Vader would have zero interest in his home world actually makes a lot of sense. His only real connection to that world was his mother. Without her that world has nothing good within it that he recalls now. Just slavery, sand, hutts and death. What family that was there were strangers to him. People his mother was bought by and then marred into. Strangers.
Furthermore, mentally, Vader isn't Anakin. Part of his mental shield in how he clearly accepts who he is as Vader and does the things he does is likely blocking off all memory of that person. Shunting into a dark corner of his mind. Chances are there are likely days he doesn't even remember much of himself before he became Vader.
He certainly seems to spare no special attention for the world in terms of Imperial attention. It has no increased policing and seems to still mostly be controlled by the Huts; or at least their activities and power remain.
So what if there's someone called Kenobi there. As noted there are likely millions of people with the same or similar name over the whole Galaxy. Furthermore international travel is so easily done within the setting that chances are regional names spread all over the place quite readily within regions.
Also, it also kind of starts setting up questions as to how Qui-Gonn didn't survive his stabbing from Darth Maul if all these piddly dark side users who were of lower power than Qui Gonn were able to live after being stabbed.
Irishmen don't ever come back from being stabbed in the liver.
Overread wrote: He has no reason to consider it a viable place for anything to happen. Least of all his old teacher going there to hide his child that he doesn't know exists.
Just adding that for you. I feel like people keep completely missing this point. Vader doesn't know there's a child to look for.
I’ll need to watch the final scenes of Part 5 to remind myself exactly what Third Sister learns from Bail’s message. I’m not sure if it’s just further children (and remember, they covered Force Sensitive Kids being kidnapped by The Empire), or specifically Anakin’s sprogs?
Lance845 wrote: Lets do it this way. How many people named Kenobi exist on Vader's home planet within non-air travel distance from a Skywalker?
1
But why would Vader even look on Tatooine?
The only person he knew there who had any importance to him was his own mother. Everyone else came onto the scene long after he left and after she died. He's no relation or family connections to them. He has no reason to consider it a viable place for anything to happen. Least of all his old teacher going there to hide his child. Whilst some events and the timeline of the first 3 films can sometimes mess up some things (like the afore mentioned rapid move of Jedi from fact to legend); the idea that Vader would have zero interest in his home world actually makes a lot of sense. His only real connection to that world was his mother. Without her that world has nothing good within it that he recalls now. Just slavery, sand, hutts and death. What family that was there were strangers to him. People his mother was bought by and then marred into. Strangers.
Furthermore, mentally, Vader isn't Anakin. Part of his mental shield in how he clearly accepts who he is as Vader and does the things he does is likely blocking off all memory of that person. Shunting into a dark corner of his mind. Chances are there are likely days he doesn't even remember much of himself before he became Vader.
He certainly seems to spare no special attention for the world in terms of Imperial attention. It has no increased policing and seems to still mostly be controlled by the Huts; or at least their activities and power remain.
So what if there's someone called Kenobi there. As noted there are likely millions of people with the same or similar name over the whole Galaxy. Furthermore international travel is so easily done within the setting that chances are regional names spread all over the place quite readily within regions.
So, we see in the movies and this show that Vader REALLY hates Kenobi and killing Kenobi is one of his top priorities. Not like for the empire. For himself.
Then, this show happens. And Kenobi has direct interactions with Vader. Unless this show ends with Kenobi faking his death in someway that makes Vader think he is dead, then Vader is on his trail and looking for him. Return to my point about an APB on a Kenobi.
While the empire doesn't have a crazy presence on Tatooine, it DOES have A pretense there. Plus bounty hunters and inquisitors and the like. Also, hey, the inquisitors were already on Tatooine.
Any person there could be like... Yeah... I know a Kenobi. Ol'Ben Kenobi. At any point. Over the next 10 YEARS.
You guys assume there are a bunch of Kenobi's out there or that they might be as common as "Smith". But thats you working backwards to justify how dumb this is with some kind of rational explanation for which you have no evidence. We know of exactly 2 Kenobis and 1 only in a single sentence off hand mention as a brother to the only one anyone has ever known about. The fact that Obi Wan Kenobi goes into hiding as Old Ben Kenobi is, and pretty much always has been, really dumb.
Lance845 wrote: We know of exactly 2 Kenobis and 1 only in a single sentence off hand mention as a brother to the only one anyone has ever known about.
I think we can infer that there are or were at least two more Kenobis out there since Obi Wan wouldn't exist without parents. Even Anakin had one of those.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Nope. Just mentions The Children, Tattooine and “Owen, help the boy”
Did you also go back to the first episode and check if Owen conveniently let his name and home address slip?
Good to know. For a second there I thought she might have to do some actual work to get results, but luckily that was just silliness on my part and results just produce themselves as they do for the rest of us.
Lance845 wrote: We know of exactly 2 Kenobis and 1 only in a single sentence off hand mention as a brother to the only one anyone has ever known about.
I think we can infer that there are or were at least two more Kenobis out there since Obi Wan wouldn't exist without parents. Even Anakin had one of those.
All people Vader would love to go on a killing spree against just to spite Obi Wan.
This is literally an appropriate time for the villains to do a "Bring me the heads of every dwarf until my brother is found" ala Cersi in Game of Throne.
I think I figured out why I'm having a hard time with Obi Wan. The Filoni and Favreau shows aren't trying to be overly serious, so I'm more open to silly and nonsensical elements as they don't clash so hard with my expectations. Obi Wan very much looks like it's trying to come across like a genuine drama to me, trying to be all deep and serious like. I feel compelled to hold it to different standards, and it just doesn't measure up because it doesn't rise above the usual, straightforward and simplistic storytelling Star Wars gets.
It feels all kinds of weird, but I think a less serious Star Wars is simply better.
Lance845 wrote: We know of exactly 2 Kenobis and 1 only in a single sentence off hand mention as a brother to the only one anyone has ever known about.
I think we can infer that there are or were at least two more Kenobis out there since Obi Wan wouldn't exist without parents. Even Anakin had one of those.
All people Vader would love to go on a killing spree against just to spite Obi Wan.
This is literally an appropriate time for the villains to do a "Bring me the heads of every dwarf until my brother is found" ala Cersi in Game of Throne.
Why, though? Obi Wan was kidnapped at a very young age. The Jedi order is the only family he ever knew and its a family that preaches detachment, something Anakin should be very well aware of. Killing Obi Wan's biological family isn't going to achieve any more than killing random strangers. There is no point because there is no way to spite Obi Wan in that manner. If Satine was still alive, there'd be an argument for leveraging her against him, but that's not an option for obvious reasons.
Grimskul wrote: Also, it also kind of starts setting up questions as to how Qui-Gonn didn't survive his stabbing from Darth Maul if all these piddly dark side users who were of lower power than Qui Gonn were able to live after being stabbed.
He lost the will to live and the others didn't?
Or simply that he was stabbed somewhere more immediately killy.
'Lower power' is also something of a misinterpretation. It's always been the case that the Dark Side opens up access to considerably more power, it's just focusing it effectively that less well-trained dark side users suffer from. But rage (or 'revenge', as the creepy man says) is a powerful focus.
Lance845 wrote: Lets do it this way. How many people named Kenobi exist on Vader's home planet within non-air travel distance from a Skywalker?
And the answer is - We don't know, because nowhere in the various repositories of Star Wars background information is there a complete census of the population of Tatooine.
But even if the answer is '1'... you're still assuming that this name actually shows up anywhere important. He's an old dude living out in the desert near a small and unimportant town on a poorly regulated planet and largely keeping to himself. The number of people on the planet who actually know his name would be vanishingly small.
I think I figured out why I'm having a hard time with Obi Wan. The Filoni and Favreau shows aren't trying to be overly serious, so I'm more open to silly and nonsensical elements as they don't clash so hard with my expectations. Obi Wan very much looks like it's trying to come across like a genuine drama to me, trying to be all deep and serious like. I feel compelled to hold it to different standards, and it just doesn't measure up because it doesn't rise above the usual, straightforward and simplistic storytelling Star Wars gets.
That's a good call.
The other part of it is, simply, for a genuine drama, protagonists have to have something to lose. We know, _absolutely_, that they do not. Obi-wan has zero connections to anyone who isn't Luke and Leia and vaguely Owen and Bail.
Old co-workers who don't have enough to feed their families, former Jedi trying to flee the inquisitors, no one else in the galaxy means a thing to him. He can even encourage ex-younglings into suicide attempts for a convenient distraction.
Going into the final episode it is entirely assured that everyone (who matters) will be perfectly fine, because they need to be in place for the film 45 years ago.
Episode 6 (the sixth part, because apparently these thing need episode titles even when they don't have one) will be like watching an afternoon special where everyone goes home directly from school and no one gets drunk, does drugs, speeds, gets in a fight and no unexpected pregnancies happen. They just go home have dinner and get up to go to school again the next day.
Filoni and Favreau also can't make competent villains, especially the average trooper ones, feel any sort of threatening. I absolutely do not believe the Empire can maintain any sort of order with such pathetic soldiers.
As for the force trick Vader pulled. Neat. Looks cool. Why didn't he flick X-Wings left and right in the trench run of ANH, then? They're much smaller than the transport, he doesn't need to completely stop them, just angle them to have them crash into the trench wall, it would be a lot efforts.
Bobthehero wrote: As for the force trick Vader pulled. Neat. Looks cool. Why didn't he flick X-Wings left and right in the trench run of ANH, then? They're much smaller than the transport, he doesn't need to completely stop them, just angle them to have them crash into the trench wall, it would be a lot efforts.
For one, because he liked to show off his superior piloting skills. And I would guess that there's a bit of difference in the level of concentration required to do something like that while standing flat on the ground compared to while piloting a starfighter in a narrow trench during combat.
A trench with no obstacles? He just flies straight, change the inclination of the X-Wings/Y-Wings a few degree, and let their speed send them crashing into the walls.
That’s why I don’t like that part. Yoda had to effort and concentration into lifting an XWing, vs Vader overpowering a ship actively trying to fly away. I would rather it had been just starting to lift off and he crushed the engines.
Force Dragging a ship attempting take off whilst standing on the ground is not the same as trying to alter a flight trajectory whilst also flying, at high speed. Therefore I’m going to argue it’s a matter of sheer concentration. When he’s just stood there doing nothing but dragging you back down to the ground, he’s using his full concentration. Given he was in pursuit over the Death Star, had two wingmen and some pretty easy “nowhere else for them to go” targets, shooting them down is likely the easier, if less flashy option - and the one with the least risk of stacking it yourself. After all, had another group entered the trench behind Vader and chums, you don’t want your attention elsewhere (which is more or less what happens with Han’s intervention and Chewie’s fancy shoot in’)
Yoda? Who knows how long he’d been shut off from The Force? No, we don’t know for certain he ever did that in the first place. But raising Luke’s X-Wing out of the swamp remains the only time we see Yoda flex the Force in the OT. But I think it’s a reasonable inference, given we’ve now seen two clear examples (Luke and Obi-Wan) both finding going back to using the Force as a bit of a strain.
Please note these are only arguments/possible explanations I’m putting forth. No-one is obliged to agree, and I do not claim super special knowledge.
As for not crushing the engines? Vader didn’t want Kenobi dead. Vader wanted Kenobi - possibly to kill himself, and very likely in as excruciating a manner as possible. Hence we don’t see him simply tear the engines off. Get it on the ground, tear the ship the apart and bring him the passengers, he wants them alive.
AduroT wrote: That’s why I don’t like that part. Yoda had to effort and concentration into lifting an XWing, vs Vader overpowering a ship actively trying to fly away. I would rather it had been just starting to lift off and he crushed the engines.
Ok? But Yoda isn't a Sith Lord with seemingly bottomless wells of hate, fear, and rage to draw on. Vader does. Enslaved as a child, dead mother, betrayed by his adopted family (the Jedi), "betrayed" by his brother Obi-Wan who also cut off three of his limbs and left him to die, his wife is dead, and his child is dead. Yoda was sitting in a swamp for like 35 years eating soup and was also like 890 odd years old. As others have pointed out as well, the Jedi we've seen post-fall mostly don't use the Force, whereas again Vader uses it all the time. Kenobi, Kanan, and Yoda are all working with a power they don't draw on daily and it's a struggle for them. Hell, IIRC Cere from Fallen Order just lost the ability until the last act of the game because she was in hiding and basically abandoned it.
It would be like asking someone who hasn't played guitar in 30 years to perfectly play the solo from Free Bird.
Conflicted emotions I’d say. He’d just revealed himself to his son, who rejected his (presumably entirely sincere) offer to overthrow Palpatine and rule together, then lopped his son’s hand off.
AduroT wrote: Alright, if he’s This strong, why did he let Luke fall in the OT?
You do know people have been asking that question since the movie came out right?
The simplest answer is that Vader wanted Luke to willingly join him so they could rule together, not as master and pawn as it was with Vader and the Emperor. That whole bit where Vader fights Luke is the former realising that delivering Luke to the Emperor gets Vader killed and that tempting Luke to join him means Vader lives.
To be more specific about Luke joining Vader:
Bobthehero wrote: Filoni and Favreau also can't make competent villains, especially the average trooper ones, feel any sort of threatening. I absolutely do not believe the Empire can maintain any sort of order with such pathetic soldiers.
Can't or won't, yeah.
I will say the first time I watched Rebels Thrawn actually had a pretty good showing. Eerily good, to be honest. When it comes down to it he made a whole lot of good decisions and lost to the rebels only twice, and both times by deus ex machina. That's not necessarily better writing as it just turns the thing around to favor the Empire for once, but proves that they could find a better balance if they wanted to. They clearly know there's a point to having a competent antagonist, they just inexplicably think they don't have to have that most of the time.
It's kind of hard to fathom how they think making the antagonists idiots wouldn't reflect back on the protagonists. Or to loosely quote Obi Wan: "Who's the bigger moron? The moron or the moron who opposes him?"
Bobthehero wrote: A trench with no obstacles? He just flies straight, change the inclination of the X-Wings/Y-Wings a few degree, and let their speed send them crashing into the walls.
Vader flies straight because the rebels fly straight because the trench is straight. That whole scene has been nonsense for 45 years. How hard can it be for an ace pilot to shoot down three fighters flying ahead of him in a straight line? Yet somehow he doesn't. I'm not bothered if Vader learns new Force tricks in new material that would have given him alternate options for taking down the rebels if he can't shoot them down the dead easy conventional way because plot armor prevents a sure thing from happening.
AduroT wrote: That’s why I don’t like that part. Yoda had to effort and concentration into lifting an XWing, vs Vader overpowering a ship actively trying to fly away. I would rather it had been just starting to lift off and he crushed the engines.
Honestly, I didn't like it because I couldn't figure out why he didn't just... do it again.
It was so effortless that a repeat performance seemed like the obvious thing, but no.
Part of it is that this version of Vader comes across as fairly fake to me. The physical presence just isn't there.
Not sure what it is, haven't really looked closely at it for CGI enhancements or whatever (in this particular case it might be standing in front of the very CGI ship), but it just made a very flat initial impression that stuck with me.
The thing that really struck me was the angle of the scale - it was totally off, as the ship looked too small compared to DV in some of those shots - how could all those people fit in such a tiny ship? Again, just sloppy, I don't care, let's get anything on screen attitude.
MDSW wrote: The thing that really struck me was the angle of the scale - it was totally off, as the ship looked too small compared to DV in some of those shots - how could all those people fit in such a tiny ship? Again, just sloppy, I don't care, let's get anything on screen attitude.
The ship itself looked pretty flimsy in comparison to others we’ve seen. Literally just a flying, assumed airtight and pressurised container. Certainly not armoured as such.
Dreadwinter wrote: One ship had Obi-Wan protecting it, the other did not. It is really that simple. Vader fell for it.
Obi-wan didn't protect... anything. Really, he got a lot of poor idiots killed, and actively encouraged a suicide attempt.
He just happened to be on the ship that didn't get force choked.
We know that he wasn't protecting the second ship with the force how?
You cannot prove a negative. You can prove a positive. We know Obi Wan WAS protecting the second ship how? What evidence do we have? Is it none? It looks a lot like none.
Dreadwinter wrote: One ship had Obi-Wan protecting it, the other did not. It is really that simple. Vader fell for it.
Obi-wan didn't protect... anything. Really, he got a lot of poor idiots killed, and actively encouraged a suicide attempt.
He just happened to be on the ship that didn't get force choked.
We know that he wasn't protecting the second ship with the force how?
You cannot prove a negative. You can prove a positive. We know Obi Wan WAS protecting the second ship how? What evidence do we have? Is it none? It looks a lot like none.
He was on it. That is how a soft magic system works.
He is a space wizard. You don't have to prove anything.
You don't even have to go that far. He knew Anakin would be absolutely enraged and just fed him a target that he would vent on, all the while knowing he'd be too blinded to see the real target just out of vision.
It was essentially just sound reasoning based on his own insight.
That Vader couldn't repeat what he did a second time can be ascribed to Obi Wan intervening, or simply a temporary lack of focus or energy on Vader's part in the immediate aftermath of doing it the first time.
Except that presupposes that it needs 'justifying'.
You can see something that needs an explanation as a plot hole. Or you can see it as something that just hasn't been clearly explained, and consider the possible explanations.
One of those options will generally lead to greater enjoyment of the show. The other just leads to complaints on an internet discussion board.
And honestly, I'd rather stick with enjoying the show.
insaniak wrote: Except that presupposes that it needs 'justifying'.
You can see something that needs an explanation as a plot hole. Or you can see it as something that just hasn't been clearly explained, and consider the possible explanations.
One of those options will generally lead to greater enjoyment of the show. The other just leads to complaints on an internet discussion board.
And honestly, I'd rather stick with enjoying the show.
Suspension of disbelief only works when there's at least some measure of internal consistency (or consistent inconsistency for some wackier shows like Pop Team Epic). Lucas already opened Pandora's box when he tried to quantify the force in individuals in some way via Midichlorians, so it's kinda late to back out now to start handwaving that things don't need to be explained at some level. I'm not even asking for the stupid wiki level exposition that some people want, I just want things to actually match the existing narrative and rules set by the universe. It's rough enough with the prequel and subsesquent sequel trilogy, but with low effort stuff like this it begs the question of how much damage control you can do before you admit you have no standards. I'm not saying Star Wars is premium Shakespearean writing in any sense, but at least it was engaging in terms of either the world building if not the delivery or acting. Stuff like Kenobi actively works against that with what Lance said regarding how it narratively shrinks the conflict and continues to minimize how you could ever see the Empire as a galaxy spanning threat and contradicts how characters are depicted later on in established parts of the story.
Just saying, "ayyyy Imma turn off my brain" to enjoy it is all nice and good, but don't frame it in a way where it's excusable just because you aren't bothered by how mediocre it is.
...but thats you working backwards to justify how dumb this is with some kind of rational explanation for which you have no evidence.
Quoting this because the last several pages of this thread is riddled with people doing exactly this.
Quoting this because Star Wars has pretty much always done this.
Not ranting at you specifically, but this is something which has got on my nerves for a while now. And it’s folk complaining “modern SW movie/show didn’t explain X. Modern SW movie/show didn’t justify Y”, whilst neatly glossing over the simple fact much, if not most, of what we know about that universes does not in fact come from the movies, but other media.
Consider A New Hope.
What is a T-16? We don’t actually know, other than Luke used to bullseye Womp Rats in his one.
How can a far boy jump in their equivalent of a combat fighter and,…just…sort of know how to fly the thing in a combat situation?
Of course, we now know the T-16 is a Skyhopper. Made by Incom. Who also make the X-Wing. Apparently they have a pretty standardised control system, so if you can fly one Incom product, you can fly most if not all.of their products. Colossal, gaping plot hole explained. But not in the movie.
Remember people pretending to freak out because Rey was a good pilot? Explained (beyond her “we’ve got one” line so conveniently forgotten about) in Other Media.
insaniak wrote: Except that presupposes that it needs 'justifying'.
You can see something that needs an explanation as a plot hole. Or you can see it as something that just hasn't been clearly explained, and consider the possible explanations.
One of those options will generally lead to greater enjoyment of the show. The other just leads to complaints on an internet discussion board.
And honestly, I'd rather stick with enjoying the show.
Suspension of disbelief only works when there's at least some measure of internal consistency (or consistent inconsistency for some wackier shows like Pop Team Epic). Lucas already opened Pandora's box when he tried to quantify the force in individuals in some way via Midichlorians, so it's kinda late to back out now to start handwaving that things don't need to be explained at some level. I'm not even asking for the stupid wiki level exposition that some people want, I just want things to actually match the existing narrative and rules set by the universe. It's rough enough with the prequel and subsesquent sequel trilogy, but with low effort stuff like this it begs the question of how much damage control you can do before you admit you have no standards. I'm not saying Star Wars is premium Shakespearean writing in any sense, but at least it was engaging in terms of either the world building if not the delivery or acting. Stuff like Kenobi actively works against that with what Lance said regarding how it narratively shrinks the conflict and continues to minimize how you could ever see the Empire as a galaxy spanning threat and contradicts how characters are depicted later on in established parts of the story.
Just saying, "ayyyy Imma turn off my brain" to enjoy it is all nice and good, but don't frame it in a way where it's excusable just because you aren't bothered by how mediocre it is.
See, that's exactly the point, though. If you didn't get the consistency you want with the Prequels, or the Sequels, or anything else released since then, surely accepting that the franchise just isn't for you is going to be healthier for your liver than watching each new thing expecting it to be something it isn't, and then complaining about all the reasons it isn't what you want.
I don't expect Star Wars to be particularly consistent, or to make a great deal of actual sense, because I accepted 30 years ago that George was just making it up as he went along and cared far more about it looking pretty than having an airtight setting.
Star Wars isn't hard Sci Fi. It's pulp fantasy adventure. Things happen because they fit the story being told today, or because they'll be visually impressive. If you're expecting more than that, you're doomed to eternal disappointment.
...but thats you working backwards to justify how dumb this is with some kind of rational explanation for which you have no evidence.
Quoting this because the last several pages of this thread is riddled with people doing exactly this.
Quoting this because Star Wars has pretty much always done this.
Not ranting at you specifically, but this is something which has got on my nerves for a while now. And it’s folk complaining “modern SW movie/show didn’t explain X. Modern SW movie/show didn’t justify Y”, whilst neatly glossing over the simple fact much, if not most, of what we know about that universes does not in fact come from the movies, but other media.
Consider A New Hope.
What is a T-16? We don’t actually know, other than Luke used to bullseye Womp Rats in his one.
How can a far boy jump in their equivalent of a combat fighter and,…just…sort of know how to fly the thing in a combat situation?
Of course, we now know the T-16 is a Skyhopper. Made by Incom. Who also make the X-Wing. Apparently they have a pretty standardised control system, so if you can fly one Incom product, you can fly most if not all.of their products. Colossal, gaping plot hole explained. But not in the movie.
Remember people pretending to freak out because Rey was a good pilot? Explained (beyond her “we’ve got one” line so conveniently forgotten about) in Other Media.
Agree!
I think it was way more palatable at the beginning because the original trilogy presented itself as a lived in universe. We came in in the middle of the action with conflicts already occurring. Everything we were told about that was happening around the story was these interesting mystery elements. The Clone Wars, the Old Jedi Order, the Old Republic. It was the explanations that killed it. 4-6 are very consistent. They BECOME inconsistent when you get to the prequels, and the shows, and all the other nonsense that comes after. At least back in the day the X mas special and Droid/Ework cartoons were not canon. Now... wtf is all this?
insaniak wrote: Except that presupposes that it needs 'justifying'.
You can see something that needs an explanation as a plot hole. Or you can see it as something that just hasn't been clearly explained, and consider the possible explanations.
One of those options will generally lead to greater enjoyment of the show. The other just leads to complaints on an internet discussion board.
And honestly, I'd rather stick with enjoying the show.
Suspension of disbelief only works when there's at least some measure of internal consistency (or consistent inconsistency for some wackier shows like Pop Team Epic). Lucas already opened Pandora's box when he tried to quantify the force in individuals in some way via Midichlorians, so it's kinda late to back out now to start handwaving that things don't need to be explained at some level. I'm not even asking for the stupid wiki level exposition that some people want, I just want things to actually match the existing narrative and rules set by the universe. It's rough enough with the prequel and subsesquent sequel trilogy, but with low effort stuff like this it begs the question of how much damage control you can do before you admit you have no standards. I'm not saying Star Wars is premium Shakespearean writing in any sense, but at least it was engaging in terms of either the world building if not the delivery or acting. Stuff like Kenobi actively works against that with what Lance said regarding how it narratively shrinks the conflict and continues to minimize how you could ever see the Empire as a galaxy spanning threat and contradicts how characters are depicted later on in established parts of the story.
Just saying, "ayyyy Imma turn off my brain" to enjoy it is all nice and good, but don't frame it in a way where it's excusable just because you aren't bothered by how mediocre it is.
Wow, a lot wrong in this.
So, what about Midichlorians changes the fact that The Force has always been a soft magic system where it is used to fix things? Absolutely nothing. Are midichlorians dumb? Absolutely. Does it change the system in any way? Not at all.
The Empire is not and has never been a galaxy spanning threat. If you look at any map of the known Star Wars galaxy, the Empire owns such a small fraction of it that it is silly. Really just the inner core, about what the Republic owned, which wasn't that much. You have Hutt space, the outer rim. Then like half of the galaxy itself is unexplored. The Star Wars galaxy is not and has never been, fully discovered.
I'm not sure what you mean by a 'soft magic system' (it doesn't line up with anything I've ever seen anyone else use the term for), and it certainly doesn't handwave away anything.
The Empire not being a 'galaxy spanning threat' is a 'so what?' statement. Everyone we've ever been introduced to lives in the part they do threaten.
Star Wars isn't hard Sci Fi. It's pulp fantasy adventure. Things happen because they fit the story being told today, or because they'll be visually impressive. If you're expecting more than that, you're doomed to eternal disappointment.
Ok, but what about the stuff that keeps happening that doesn't fit the story being told today and isn't visually impresive?
Voss wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by a 'soft magic system' (it doesn't line up with anything I've ever seen anyone else use the term for), and it certainly doesn't handwave away anything.
The Empire not being a 'galaxy spanning threat' is a 'so what?' statement. Everyone we've ever been introduced to lives in the part they do threaten.
Star Wars isn't hard Sci Fi. It's pulp fantasy adventure. Things happen because they fit the story being told today, or because they'll be visually impressive. If you're expecting more than that, you're doomed to eternal disappointment.
Ok, but what about the stuff that keeps happening that doesn't fit the story being told today and isn't visually impresive?
Soft Magic System is a well known identification of how magic systems work in fantasy settings. It means that the system does not have to have a defined set of rules. It certainly does hand wave things away, that is the point of a Soft Magic System. You cant say it doesn't do something when you don't even know what it is.
The Empire doesn't threaten the whole galaxy. Less than half of the galaxy in Star Wars is explored or inhabited. The Empire certainly does not roam around Hutt Space willy nilly, which is why they aren't dropping entire platoons on the planet to catch Obi-Wan. So context matters. You can't really 'so what?' that.
What stuff is happening that doesn't fit the story being told today? What is not visually impressive?
Voss wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by a 'soft magic system' (it doesn't line up with anything I've ever seen anyone else use the term for), and it certainly doesn't handwave away anything.
It's a somewhat pointless delineation proposed by Brandon Sanderson that basically applies the hard scifi/soft scifi dynamic to magic systems. Soft magic = a magic system that has no stated hard or fast rules, hard magic = a magic system with clearly defined rules. I call it pointless because I'd argue 'hard magic' is indistinguishable from fantastic science and therefore isn't really magic at all. Magic is magic because it's not understood. That's the whole point of 'magic.' Alternately, I'm someone who thinks the 'gameifcation' of fiction is annoying and something that Sanderson's Hard/Soft delineation has made worse so I'm not really inclined to like it in the first place *shrugs*
Within the scope of how Sanderson writes, what it really represents is an ideology on drama and narrative tension; that consequences are more interesting than powers, and that the more the audience understands something the more they'll appreciate it and the more an author can do with it without running into SOD problems. The actual logic behind the division is actually more interesting and useful than the division itself imo.
I'd charge it isn't well-known at all. It's been popularized by Sanderson and Sanderson's fanbase which also overlaps a lot with constructed world communities, which is quite large and present on the Internet but outside that particular base there's been little penetration of the idea into the broader space of fiction.
The Hard/Soft Magic system is only a term used by Sanderson that got popular. Those systems existed and the difference between them was recognized long before Sanderson used it.
Most Fantasy/Sci-Fi writers use those terms now, it isn't just Sanderson and his fanbase. There is wide overlap across the world.
Dreadwinter wrote: Those systems existed and the difference between them was recognized long before Sanderson used it.
Loosely sure, but the basic premise of hard/soft magic extends now directly from Sanderson's Laws of Magic and discussion of it;
1. An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.
2. Weaknesses, limits and costs are more interesting than powers.
3. The author should expand on what is already a part of the magic system before something entirely new is added, as this may otherwise entirely change how the magic system fits into the fictional world.
And it's mostly an extension that only exists in and around Sanderson's fanbase, something I learned fast when the Wikipedia article for Hard and Soft magic was deleted because Sanderson himself was the only source anyone could find discussing it that wasn't dismissive of the idea (the specific reason for the deletion was literally 'lack of notability' and Wikipedia's definition of notability is vast).
Most Fantasy/Sci-Fi writers use those terms now,
I feel very confident when I tell you no they don't. The term is far more popular in spaces talking about fantasy and sci-fi and constructed worlds than it is among writers. And Sanderson is atypical in how he approaches writing. I don't think most authors think about the nuts and bolts of what they do to nearly the degree Sanderson does.
Voss wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by a 'soft magic system' (it doesn't line up with anything I've ever seen anyone else use the term for), and it certainly doesn't handwave away anything.
The Empire not being a 'galaxy spanning threat' is a 'so what?' statement. Everyone we've ever been introduced to lives in the part they do threaten.
Star Wars isn't hard Sci Fi. It's pulp fantasy adventure. Things happen because they fit the story being told today, or because they'll be visually impressive. If you're expecting more than that, you're doomed to eternal disappointment.
Ok, but what about the stuff that keeps happening that doesn't fit the story being told today and isn't visually impresive?
Soft Magic System is a well known identification of how magic systems work in fantasy settings. It means that the system does not have to have a defined set of rules. It certainly does hand wave things away, that is the point of a Soft Magic System. You cant say it doesn't do something when you don't even know what it is.
So 'soft magic' = any amount of bad writing and donkey-pulls around magic is fine. Gotcha.
The Empire doesn't threaten the whole galaxy. Less than half of the galaxy in Star Wars is explored or inhabited.
And people (specifically characters we care about on screen) don't go there. You're making a 'it wasn't a world war because no one fought on Antarctica' argument.
The Empire certainly does not roam around Hutt Space willy nilly, which is why they aren't dropping entire platoons on the planet to catch Obi-Wan. So context matters. You can't really 'so what?' that.
But... they did drop an entire platoon on the planet. They all lined up to shoot at the door.
There were also stormtroopers and Inquisitors all over Empty Quarry Planet, Evil City Planet and Tattooine itself.
No one runs off to hide in Hutt Space (successfully or otherwise) so it does not matter that the Empire can't roam around 'willy nilly' (according to you, anyway, in the films that doesn't even seem to be a thing characters are aware of).
Whatever hypothetical point you're trying to make here, its denied by the _fact_ that there are Imperials everywhere they go in the actual show.
What stuff is happening that doesn't fit the story being told today? What is not visually impressive?
The entire horror-movie-stalker scene that ends with obi-wan being dragged through fire to no lasting effect. No idea why that happened (beyond contradicting the New Hope implication that 'Vader is now the master' and will now win their duel, having never done that before), and the entire sequence looked like crap (too dark, trivial obstacles and Vader looked too fake). As did the knock-off batman roof running on the Planet of Crushed Dreams. Forcing choking the spaceship was cheesy CGI, and too easy.
So 'soft magic' = any amount of bad writing and donkey-pulls around magic is fine. Gotcha.
Maybe a bit unnecessarily hostile.
Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and Warhammer 40k would all probably fall under the soft side of the scale. None of them have particularly explicit rules for how 'magic' works. It's just a thing that happens. I wouldn't say it = bad writing. Mostly it'll only get bad if the audience decides to be really nitpicky, or the writers start bending credulity too hard because the setting they built wasn't built for what they're doing.
Another way of looking at it (frankly, probably more accurate IMO) is how much time a work or piece of media spends explaining and exploiting magical rules. TLDR: is this a piece of fiction about, or where the thrill comes from, someone munchkining the world around them? I tend to find that's the actual question at play most of the time. If this is a story about someone taking the world and telling it to feth off, then the world needs to be defined so that there's a catharsis when it gets told to screw off. If it's a story about something else, then those other things need to be defined. If we go maximum abstraction, a story's need to be 'hard' or 'soft' on anything is equal to what the story is about. A political thriller in an ill-defined political system is going to lack thrills. A fantasy story ultimately about the struggle of good and evil with a focus on human nature, virtues, and failings, only needs a magic system that's explained as much as is necessary to make sense of it. It's the human nature, virtues, and failings, and need the actual focus of the narrative because that's what the story is about.
The entire horror-movie-stalker scene that ends with obi-wan being dragged through fire to no lasting effect. No idea why that happened (beyond contradicting the New Hope implication that 'Vader is now the master' and now will win, having never done that before), and the entire sequence looked like crap (too dark, trivial obstacles and Vader looked too fake). As did the knock-off batman roof running on the Planet of Crushed Dreams.
And I think this is really tangential to the actual complaints about the Kenobi series which mostly fall under the drama is just kind of meh and the action scenes are underwrought (keep using over but I guess under is the better prefix for what's going on here).
And to be fair, that's basically all modern media these days. It has nothing to really do with hard/soft magic anything. The best scenes in Kenobi IMO are the ones about Kenobi and Leia. I think the ones about Kenobi and Reva or Kenobi and Anakin have been a rather hit/miss affair mostly due to the way those scenes have been structured. If they were good, I doubt anyone would complain nearly as much. But they're not good, so we do what we always do and bitch about how they suck and then amp it up to how they not only suck but ruin the continuity.
I'd point out that just because Kenobi got burned doesn't mean Vader thinks he won, but then again, I don't think Kenobi has done a good job characterizing Vader at all. It seems to just assume we get that he's angry without ever contextualizing what anger means to him or how his anger colors his perception of events (and to be fair, Vader didn't seem that angry in ANH, he seemed proud and dismissive, and I'm not sure if Kenobi is even trying to explain how that transition happened). And that's what I think is kind of lazy about it. The 'magic' has nothing to do with why it does/doesn't work here.
I.E. Kenobi is a story that is fundamentally about Kenobi and his tangle of relationships and loyalties, and the series has not defined those things very well except where Leia is concerned IMO. Because they were ill-defined, we're bored and finding other things to talk about (mostly negative). We could say the exact same thing happed to Book of Boba Fett, where Fett's motivations and goals were incredibly ill-defined and made the succession of action set pieces a slog because there was lacking context to give it thrills. As opposed to The Madalorian, which had a very easy to stake premise of 'save baby Yoda' and could always rely on that to provide some momentum for what was going on.
EDIT: A great example is in the 5th episode, when Kenobi's interaction with Reva is stilted and dull. An imparting of information that feels to completely lack gravitas or narrative weight. Then there's this whole dragged out scene with Tara just after it, and it's weird because Kenobi just met the woman and she's nice enough but you'd think the things he's talking about with Reva would carry a hell of a lot more weight to them. Even the successive flashback that happens throughout the episode, comes off lacking weight IMO. It's a great scene and a great concept wasted because the series as a whole didn't know where to put its emphasis.
Forcing choking the spaceship was cheesy CGI, and too easy.
You know now that I think of it I swear people had this exact reaction when Starkiller did the same thing in Force Unleashed. I completely forgot about that.
I do remember Starkiller pulling the star destroyer out fo the sky and people being all WTF. Both in that it was awesome and that it was ridiculous in a way that broke their understanding of SW.
Dreadwinter wrote: Those systems existed and the difference between them was recognized long before Sanderson used it.
Loosely sure, but the basic premise of hard/soft magic extends now directly from Sanderson's Laws of Magic and discussion of it;
1. An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.
2. Weaknesses, limits and costs are more interesting than powers.
3. The author should expand on what is already a part of the magic system before something entirely new is added, as this may otherwise entirely change how the magic system fits into the fictional world.
And it's mostly an extension that only exists in and around Sanderson's fanbase, something I learned fast when the Wikipedia article for Hard and Soft magic was deleted because Sanderson himself was the only source anyone could find discussing it that wasn't dismissive of the idea (the specific reason for the deletion was literally 'lack of notability' and Wikipedia's definition of notability is vast).
Most Fantasy/Sci-Fi writers use those terms now,
I feel very confident when I tell you no they don't. The term is far more popular in spaces talking about fantasy and sci-fi and constructed worlds than it is among writers. And Sanderson is atypical in how he approaches writing. I don't think most authors think about the nuts and bolts of what they do to nearly the degree Sanderson does.
It doesn't extend directly from Sanderson's Laws of Magic. The Laws of Magic more extend directly from the Soft/Hard magic system. The Laws of Magic are also more for his own writing and for use as a guideline for new writers that want a little more structure. Listening to his lectures, he made it as a tool to use and not laws that must be respected.
Again, it isn't something that only exists in Sanderson's fanbase. It is used as a classification system for Fantasy/Sci-Fi. You can just google it and see. Also, it probably got deleted off Wikipedia as a page because there isn't much to the idea. It is still on the "Magic System" Wikipedia, FYI.
I feel very confident when I tell you they do. It is very popular among writers/readers of the genre that I go to. Many of those spaces do have Sanderson fans, but not everyone who uses it is a Sanderson fan. Sanderson just has a lot of fans.
Voss wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by a 'soft magic system' (it doesn't line up with anything I've ever seen anyone else use the term for), and it certainly doesn't handwave away anything.
The Empire not being a 'galaxy spanning threat' is a 'so what?' statement. Everyone we've ever been introduced to lives in the part they do threaten.
Star Wars isn't hard Sci Fi. It's pulp fantasy adventure. Things happen because they fit the story being told today, or because they'll be visually impressive. If you're expecting more than that, you're doomed to eternal disappointment.
Ok, but what about the stuff that keeps happening that doesn't fit the story being told today and isn't visually impresive?
Soft Magic System is a well known identification of how magic systems work in fantasy settings. It means that the system does not have to have a defined set of rules. It certainly does hand wave things away, that is the point of a Soft Magic System. You cant say it doesn't do something when you don't even know what it is.
So 'soft magic' = any amount of bad writing and donkey-pulls around magic is fine. Gotcha.
The Empire doesn't threaten the whole galaxy. Less than half of the galaxy in Star Wars is explored or inhabited.
And people (specifically characters we care about on screen) don't go there. You're making a 'it wasn't a world war because no one fought on Antarctica' argument.
The Empire certainly does not roam around Hutt Space willy nilly, which is why they aren't dropping entire platoons on the planet to catch Obi-Wan. So context matters. You can't really 'so what?' that.
But... they did drop an entire platoon on the planet. They all lined up to shoot at the door.
There were also stormtroopers and Inquisitors all over Empty Quarry Planet, Evil City Planet and Tattooine itself.
No one runs off to hide in Hutt Space (successfully or otherwise) so it does not matter that the Empire can't roam around 'willy nilly' (according to you, anyway, in the films that doesn't even seem to be a thing characters are aware of).
Whatever hypothetical point you're trying to make here, its denied by the _fact_ that there are Imperials everywhere they go in the actual show.
What stuff is happening that doesn't fit the story being told today? What is not visually impressive?
The entire horror-movie-stalker scene that ends with obi-wan being dragged through fire to no lasting effect. No idea why that happened (beyond contradicting the New Hope implication that 'Vader is now the master' and will now win their duel, having never done that before), and the entire sequence looked like crap (too dark, trivial obstacles and Vader looked too fake). As did the knock-off batman roof running on the Planet of Crushed Dreams. Forcing choking the spaceship was cheesy CGI, and too easy.
Sure, Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were sham writers. What a take. You are clearly the expert we should listen to here.
Tatooine is one of those places that the Empire doesn't inhabit or control. They show up sometimes and local crime lords allow it. But they don't run the planet. Much like the street planet Obi-Wan goes to. They don't run that planet, they are just allowed there. Hence, the Clone in the street. You think on a planet they control, they would just let that happen?
There is no hypothetical point there. Just a point, that being that the Empire doesn't control everything in the Universe, which is a fact and has been a fact for the entirety of Star Wars. Some places, they are just allowed to be.
Oh lol, you are just being whining to whine at this point.
I'd also point out the essay literally describes how he came up with the terminology of hard and soft magic after 2005's Worldcon where no one agreed with his statement that magic should have rules. The literal phrases hard magic and soft magic weren't phrases you'd see used much until Sanderson came along (and I say that only because I can't prove definitively he invented them) and started his side-career in essays and lectures about speculative fiction. He's describing a dynamic that is older than him, but I don't think anyone was really doing that description until he came along and even if they were Sanderson is the one who popularized it.
You can just google it and see.
I can google flat Earth too. We can google anything. I can find fanart of obscure celebrities you've never heard of bouncing down a street on pogo sticks if I want to.
It is still on the "Magic System" Wikipedia, FYI.
It used to have its own article a few years ago (which is what I literally said). I was one of the people trying to save it. There just wasn't sourcing because this idea has not penetrated that far yet (it will eventually maybe, if only because Sanderson is going to inspire writers who will continue to popularize it). As a method for categorizing fantasy, it's just not something you're going to find very far from fan spaces and communities where Sanderson is a site-wide name.
Many of those spaces do have Sanderson fans
Case and point. To coin my own phrase, you're falling for a mirage of notability. How much people know what a soft/hard magic system on the internet is going to be directly proportional to the presence of Sanderson and his works in that space. Sanderson is prolific enough to have deeply penetrated fantasy and writing forums and boards, but step outside that wheelhouse and you're not going to see it get a lot of mileage right now. Even then, I'm in multiple writing discords for webnovels and serial fiction and maybe only a handful of the people in those channels know what this idea is. Most writers are too busy writing to toy with theory the way Sanderson does. Man's a damn writing machine we only see once a generation. The only comparable author living today IMO is Stephen King.
I have seen the terms soft/hard magic system in TTRPG game design circles. But I mean... that crew is going to be people who swim in the same ponds as the Sanderson writers groups.
Lance845 wrote: I have seen the terms soft/hard magic system in TTRPG game design circles. But I mean... that crew is going to be people who swim in the same ponds as the Sanderson writers groups.
It probably helps that magic system design has a very long history in TTRPG circles and by its nature it needs rules of some kind to work on a table. Sanderson also doesn't see a big difference between Science Fiction and Fantasy in practice, and he's not really wrong. Fantasy looks to past norms, structures, and ideals as a way of commenting on the past and the present in the same vein scifi looks to future technology, cultural dynamics, and ideals as a way of commenting on the present and the future. Two sides of the same coin that use a lot of the same tools. From there it's an easy leap to talk about hard/soft magic in a similar vein to hard/soft scifi.
What stuff is happening that doesn't fit the story being told today? What is not visually impressive?
The entire horror-movie-stalker scene that ends with obi-wan being dragged through fire to no lasting effect. No idea why that happened (beyond contradicting the New Hope implication that 'Vader is now the master' and will now win their duel, having never done that before), ...
I mean, they just spent an entire episode explaining how the 'When last we met...' speech fits in, with flashbacks and everything. It wasn't just about who was better with a lightsaber.
And Obi-wan being dragged through the fire did leave a lasting effect. That, along with Vader's treatment of civilians while he was trying to lure Obi-wan out into the open is setting up Obi-wan's belief that Vader is a monster who is completely beyond redemption.
What stuff is happening that doesn't fit the story being told today? What is not visually impressive?
The entire horror-movie-stalker scene that ends with obi-wan being dragged through fire to no lasting effect. No idea why that happened (beyond contradicting the New Hope implication that 'Vader is now the master' and will now win their duel, having never done that before), ...
I mean, they just spent an entire episode explaining how the 'When last we met...' speech fits in, with flashbacks and everything. It wasn't just about who was better with a lightsaber.
And Obi-wan being dragged through the fire did leave a lasting effect. That, along with Vader's treatment of civilians while he was trying to lure Obi-wan out into the open is setting up Obi-wan's belief that Vader is a monster who is completely beyond redemption.
You know, for someone who says SW basically is low-tier fiction and that people should stop having expectations, you're doing an awful lot of damage control for a mediocre show. You criticize me for having standards but you go out of your way to defend inconsistencies for something you yourself already say is based around inconsistency? No need to validate your enjoyment of a show by trying to justify bad writing/directing.
LordofHats wrote: All I know about episode 5 of Obi-Wan is that I totally called Reva's motivations at episode 1 of the show.
I think we all could kind of see that Reva, a completely new Inquisitor that is never mentioned in later shows, was going to have some garbage attempt of being a traitor to the Empire and people connected her to being one of the younglings in the flashback. They've done this bait and switch in the main story for the latest BF2 game, and Disney has prided itself on creating "misunderstood" female villains as their hallmark already with the live-action Cruella and Maleficent characters, as well as Wanda in MoM, so I'm not surprised at Reva pulling a very badly done heel turn at the end here.
I don't think there's anything particularly misunderstood about her but that's beside the point.
For a bit after episode 4 I thought they were gonna go another way, but episode 5 gave me all the marbles when she ended up doing everything she did for the reasons I guessed she was doing them! And that admittedly took a bit of guess work and I didn't see anyone else predicting it so Ima take credit XD
What stuff is happening that doesn't fit the story being told today? What is not visually impressive?
The entire horror-movie-stalker scene that ends with obi-wan being dragged through fire to no lasting effect. No idea why that happened (beyond contradicting the New Hope implication that 'Vader is now the master' and will now win their duel, having never done that before), ...
I mean, they just spent an entire episode explaining how the 'When last we met...' speech fits in, with flashbacks and everything. It wasn't just about who was better with a lightsaber.
Uh... that face-off was never about lightsabers at all. Did... did you need context for that?
Kenobi walked into that 'fight' knowing he wasn't walking out again. Vader had no clue what was going on, and was completely distracted from what actually mattered in the moment.
And Obi-wan being dragged through the fire did leave a lasting effect.
No, it didn't. He was jogging back and forth between the door that needed to be poked with a lightsaber and the hangar multiple times. He was fine.
That, along with Vader's treatment of civilians while he was trying to lure Obi-wan out into the open is setting up Obi-wan's belief that Vader is a monster who is completely beyond redemption.
He got that message pretty well when he watched the video of 'Annie' murdering children. And killing his wife. And ultimately training his friend's son as a patricide. (and he would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those pesky questions)
In the moment he had followed up on that 'completely beyond redemption' when he took three limbs off. He just, like everybody else in this show, needed to make sure the body was a corpse.
The random murder walk was self-indulgent wankery. (on the part of the writers).
So 'soft magic' = any amount of bad writing and donkey-pulls around magic is fine. Gotcha.
Maybe a bit unnecessarily hostile.
Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and Warhammer 40k would all probably fall under the soft side of the scale. None of them have particularly explicit rules for how 'magic' works. It's just a thing that happens. I wouldn't say it = bad writing. Mostly it'll only get bad if the audience decides to be really nitpicky, or the writers start bending credulity too hard because the setting they built wasn't built for what they're doing.
No, see, it isn't. It isn't unnecessarily hostile or nitpicking too hard.
We're at the penultimate episode of a series, and the heroes are barely getting away from the over powered villain in a climatic sequence.
And the answer to 'how did the manage to do that?' isn't drama, confrontation, excitement, suspense, or any of those things that would, you know, create an interesting story.
Instead, the opinion ventured is 'Oh, the main character just prayed it away off camera, because magic.'
Its really obvious that's a terrible answer, (and obviously not the in-universe answer. as force contests elsewhere in this setting tend to be intense, sweating, focused applications of willpower, even when they aren't showy), and if it was it would make for equally terrible storytelling.
This is (at least, it is supposed to be) a character drama. Popping out of scene for a private magic show where no one is watching doesn't and can't further anything the show is trying to accomplish.
So, yeah, 'soft magic' as an explanation is utter trash.
Voss wrote: And the answer to 'how did the manage to do that?' isn't drama, confrontation, excitement, suspense, or any of those things that would, you know, create an interesting story.
Should finish reading my post cause that's what I'm pointing at.
Episode 5 jumped the shark for me in a lot of ways. Lots of stuff happens solely because the plot seems to require it and characters don't do obvious things. Even the directors didn't do obvious things and at least 1 of them is extremely bizarre to me.
Spoiler:
Why weren't Tie fighters deployed to patrol the sky? IDK. Why did the Stormtroopers forget about the super big gun they had when the fight actually started? IDK. Most bizarrely, they left Reva to live? Really? I mean, I know why she's gotta find the holo thingie and go after Luke for some big climatic fight at the end, but really? There's a lot of ways to get from A to B but in episode five the route chosen is consistently lazy and 'because the narrative needs it.' I remember seeing something somewhere about how Obi Wan was originally a movie and boy does episode 5 seem like the ending of a film that then had all the 'ending' parts cut out to justify 1 more episode for a TV series.
Grimskul wrote: You know, for someone who says SW basically is low-tier fiction and that people should stop having expectations,you're doing an awful lot of damage control for a mediocre show. You criticize me for having standards but you go out of your way to defend inconsistencies for something you yourself already say is based around inconsistency? No need to validate your enjoyment of a show by trying to justify bad writing/directing.
I think you're overestimating how much effort I'm putting into this discussion. I'm not 'going out of my way' for anything... I'm pointing out where I disagree with something.
The disconnect comes from the fact that you see the show as something bad that requires enjoyment to be justified, whereas I'm seeing the show as something that I enjoy that people seem to have completely missed the point of.
Voss wrote: Uh... that face-off was never about lightsabers at all. Did... did you need context for that?
Need it? No, not really. This entire series wasn't actually necessary.
No, it didn't. He was jogging back and forth between the door that needed to be poked with a lightsaber and the hangar multiple times. He was fine.
I think you missed what I actually wrote. I didn't say it had lasting physical effects. Most injuries in Star Wars don't.
Most bizarrely, they left Reva to live? Really? I mean, I know why she's gotta find the holo thingie and go after Luke for some big climatic fight at the end, but really?
I... don't think that's where this is going.
I mean, it could, but that would be weird and (even more) disappointing and she really has no reason to care about any of that.
Granted I don't know where episode 6 is going, because I think they've honestly spent all of their grand climatic confrontations (on basically nothing), but if I were to guess,
Spoiler:
she's going to slink out of this story and pop up as some sort of recurring, obsessed rebel agent that spends the next in-universe decade accomplishing not all that much.
There doesn't seem any use in spending screen time on watching her fail to kill someone again, and none of her potential targets are killable, even though two would be real easy for a trained darksider.
Honestly I'm expecting 40 minutes of various people going to the places they belong.
Most bizarrely, they left Reva to live? Really? I mean, I know why she's gotta find the holo thingie and go after Luke for some big climatic fight at the end, but really?
I... don't think that's where this is going.
I mean, it could, but that would be weird and (even more) disappointing and she really has no reason to care about any of that.
Granted I don't know where episode 6 is going, because I think they've honestly spent all of their grand climatic confrontations (on basically nothing), but if I were to guess,
Spoiler:
she's going to slink out of this story and pop up as some sort of recurring, obsessed rebel agent that spends the next in-universe decade accomplishing not all that much.
There doesn't seem any use in spending screen time on watching her fail to kill someone again, and none of her potential targets are killable, even though two would be real easy for a trained darksider.
Honestly I'm expecting 40 minutes of various people going to the places they belong.
The leaks of the original plotline for Kenobi have been pretty on point, so that's why I think a lot of people are thinking she's going to visit Luke and she's going to have a potential showdown with Kenobi before having a change of heart for some reason and leaving Luke alone to go off into the sunset looking for protection from Disney from the dismal job that was done with her character.
I think you missed what I actually wrote. I didn't say it had lasting physical effects. Most injuries in Star Wars don't.
Its pretty obvious I didn't from the next paragraph. But of the lessons he didn't need, some light fire non-damage was the very, very least important (as he's sorta sometimes the kind of person who cares when bad people hurt other people, but rarely himself).
Grimskul wrote: You know, for someone who says SW basically is low-tier fiction and that people should stop having expectations,you're doing an awful lot of damage control for a mediocre show. You criticize me for having standards but you go out of your way to defend inconsistencies for something you yourself already say is based around inconsistency? No need to validate your enjoyment of a show by trying to justify bad writing/directing.
I think you're overestimating how much effort I'm putting into this discussion. I'm not 'going out of my way' for anything... I'm pointing out where I disagree with something.
The disconnect comes from the fact that you see the show as something bad that requires enjoyment to be justified, whereas I'm seeing the show as something that I enjoy that people seem to have completely missed the point of.
I guess, usually apathy or indifference towards something doesn't normally garner this much of a response or engagement but I'm not you, so who knows. Also, is it weird for someone to expect some type of enjoyment from something that is literally made for entertainment, even if it's in the "so bad it's good" form?
I think you missed what I actually wrote. I didn't say it had lasting physical effects. Most injuries in Star Wars don't.
Its pretty obvious I didn't from the next paragraph. But of the lessons he didn't need, some light fire non-damage was the very, very least important (as he's sorta sometimes the kind of person who cares when bad people hurt other people, but rarely himself).
The only lesson I learned is that Disney needs to partner with some spas with SW Bacta branding with how much they've been pushing it recently with BoB and with Kenobi.
Reva's shaping up to be a pretty sad waste of a character concept at the end of the day.
Spoiler:
Darth Maul already pulled this stunt (no seriously) in Rebels and better because Rebels was better written and Maul had a more dramatic history with Vader and Kenobi.
If she was supposed to be a character of consequence, the directors and the writers did her about as dirty as they did Christensen in the prequel trilogy. Plot points that feel like they should have been focused on her character ultimately weren't. They substituted bizarrely overdone action sequences for actual character development, then hinged a huge part of the plot on the character they half-assed developing.
And it's just a shame. Just going by her ability to play a very pissed woman who is constantly angry and scheming, Ingram seemed to be who they needed to play the character Reva is supposed to be. Reva just ultimately isn't that character.
So yeah. Hayden Christensen 2.0. Maybe she'll get another shot in 15 years like he did only to show up in one flashback that was itself sort of poorly utilized XD
I guess, usually apathy or indifference towards something doesn't normally garner this much of a response or engagement but I'm not you, so who knows
I'm not sure where you got the idea I'm apathetic or indifferent here. I grew up with Star Wars. As a teenager I could quote ESB word for word. I've read most of the EU novels multiple times, and regularly rewatch the movies. It is, and always has been, my favorite sci fi franchise.
But a big part of the reason I enjoy it so much is that I don't expect it to be something it isn't.
. Also, is it weird for someone to expect some type of enjoyment from something that is literally made for entertainment, even if it's in the "so bad it's good" form?
No, that's not weird at all. But, you know... Why keep watching something you're not enjoying?
LordofHats wrote: Reva's shaping up to be a pretty sad waste of a character concept at the end of the day.
Spoiler:
Darth Maul already pulled this stunt (no seriously) in Rebels and better because Rebels was better written and Maul had a more dramatic history with Vader and Kenobi.
If she was supposed to be a character of consequence, the directors and the writers did her about as dirty as they did Christensen in the prequel trilogy. Plot points that feel like they should have been focused on her character ultimately weren't. They substituted bizarrely overdone action sequences for actual character development, then hinged a huge part of the plot on the character they half-assed developing.
And it's just a shame. Just going by her ability to play a very pissed woman who is constantly angry and scheming, Ingram seemed to be who they needed to play the character Reva is supposed to be. Reva just ultimately isn't that character.
So yeah. Hayden Christensen 2.0. Maybe she'll get another shot in 15 years like he did only to show up in one flashback that was itself sort of poorly utilized XD
Unfortunately, IMO they basically pulled a Finn on her, where their concept isn't inherently bad and is promising for a story on its own, but they get shoehorned into a story where they don't bother to spend enough time to develop her character like you said and they have no meaningful interactions with the main cast beyond being obsessed with one thing (Rey and Kenobi/Vader respectively).
Looking between the lines, you can see how Reva's character got sidetracked when Kenobi switched from being a film to being a series. She might have worked a lot better as is in a more compacted narrative, but they dragged things out and left a lot of the cast drifting in the wind without bothering to rewrite things.
I guess, usually apathy or indifference towards something doesn't normally garner this much of a response or engagement but I'm not you, so who knows
I'm not sure where you got the idea I'm apathetic or indifferent here. I grew up with Star Wars. As a teenager I could quote ESB word for word. I've read most of the EU novels multiple times, and regularly rewatch the movies. It is, and always has been, my favorite sci fi franchise.
But a big part of the reason I enjoy it so much is that I don't expect it to be something it isn't.
. Also, is it weird for someone to expect some type of enjoyment from something that is literally made for entertainment, even if it's in the "so bad it's good" form?
No, that's not weird at all. But, you know... Why keep watching something you're not enjoying?
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, for me if you've experienced basically the best SW has had to offer and now you're offered basically garbage in a SW skinsuit that I would consider it a disservice to the franchise as a whole especially when Disney has gone out of it's way to establish what's canon or not. I've seen a lot of other franchises heading the same way (LoTR with the Amazon series coming up for example) and I feel like passively accepting its fate just incentivizes people to continue sub-par quality work. Also, for what it's worth, I mainly just watch clips summarizing the key points of the series since I'm not paying for something that's this bad.
Looking between the lines, you can see how Reva's character got sidetracked when Kenobi switched from being a film to being a series. She might have worked a lot better as is in a more compacted narrative, but they dragged things out and left a lot of the cast drifting in the wind without bothering to rewrite things.
Exactly, the pacing is definitely off and there just isn't a good sense of tension for Kenobi hiding out from the Empire with her looking for him when she's never really presented as a credible threat outside of her just knowing he exists somewhere.
I'd also point out the essay literally describes how he came up with the terminology of hard and soft magic after 2005's Worldcon where no one agreed with his statement that magic should have rules. The literal phrases hard magic and soft magic weren't phrases you'd see used much until Sanderson came along (and I say that only because I can't prove definitively he invented them) and started his side-career in essays and lectures about speculative fiction. He's describing a dynamic that is older than him, but I don't think anyone was really doing that description until he came along and even if they were Sanderson is the one who popularized it.
You can just google it and see.
I can google flat Earth too. We can google anything. I can find fanart of obscure celebrities you've never heard of bouncing down a street on pogo sticks if I want to.
It is still on the "Magic System" Wikipedia, FYI.
It used to have its own article a few years ago (which is what I literally said). I was one of the people trying to save it. There just wasn't sourcing because this idea has not penetrated that far yet (it will eventually maybe, if only because Sanderson is going to inspire writers who will continue to popularize it). As a method for categorizing fantasy, it's just not something you're going to find very far from fan spaces and communities where Sanderson is a site-wide name.
Many of those spaces do have Sanderson fans
Case and point. To coin my own phrase, you're falling for a mirage of notability. How much people know what a soft/hard magic system on the internet is going to be directly proportional to the presence of Sanderson and his works in that space. Sanderson is prolific enough to have deeply penetrated fantasy and writing forums and boards, but step outside that wheelhouse and you're not going to see it get a lot of mileage right now. Even then, I'm in multiple writing discords for webnovels and serial fiction and maybe only a handful of the people in those channels know what this idea is. Most writers are too busy writing to toy with theory the way Sanderson does. Man's a damn writing machine we only see once a generation. The only comparable author living today IMO is Stephen King.
Who cares if they agreed with that statement? Most of them preferred Soft Magic systems, he acknowledges IN THE ESSAY that they weren't the people who liked magic systems with hard rules, like Orson Scott Card. The man whom he got the whole idea from. Also, just because it was IN the first article he wrote describing his First Law, does not mean it is directly extended from that. You even say that the idea existed before him. I knew it existed before I knew about him.
Okay, while googling Flat Earth you can google to see all of the authors and writers that use the terms now. Many people are talking about it and even expanding on the idea that there was sub genres of Soft and Hard magic.
I know you said that, that is why I said it is still on Wikipedia. Sanderson is a site wide name in any writing circles that involve Fiction. So not really sure what point you are trying to make with this.
I am in multiple writing discords as well and almost everyone knows about the idea of soft/hard magic systems.
So 'soft magic' = any amount of bad writing and donkey-pulls around magic is fine. Gotcha.
Maybe a bit unnecessarily hostile.
Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and Warhammer 40k would all probably fall under the soft side of the scale. None of them have particularly explicit rules for how 'magic' works. It's just a thing that happens. I wouldn't say it = bad writing. Mostly it'll only get bad if the audience decides to be really nitpicky, or the writers start bending credulity too hard because the setting they built wasn't built for what they're doing.
No, see, it isn't. It isn't unnecessarily hostile or nitpicking too hard.
We're at the penultimate episode of a series, and the heroes are barely getting away from the over powered villain in a climatic sequence.
And the answer to 'how did the manage to do that?' isn't drama, confrontation, excitement, suspense, or any of those things that would, you know, create an interesting story.
Instead, the opinion ventured is 'Oh, the main character just prayed it away off camera, because magic.'
Its really obvious that's a terrible answer, (and obviously not the in-universe answer. as force contests elsewhere in this setting tend to be intense, sweating, focused applications of willpower, even when they aren't showy), and if it was it would make for equally terrible storytelling.
This is (at least, it is supposed to be) a character drama. Popping out of scene for a private magic show where no one is watching doesn't and can't further anything the show is trying to accomplish.
So, yeah, 'soft magic' as an explanation is utter trash.
Yeah, it is a pretty trash take. You are trying to make the show in to something it is not. It is a character drama, about Space Wizards who use The Force to solve their problems. Were you expecting Obi-Wan to convince Vader to just let him go away or something? I don't really understand what you are complaining about this time.
Because it points out how Sanderson is talking about the topic in a way others weren't at the time.
You even say that the idea existed before him. I knew it existed before I knew about him.
To be unambiguous, hard scifi and soft scifi existed before either of those terms were coined. That's what I'm getting at. the hard/soft science fiction dynamic didn't appear as terminology until the 1970s, but stuff written before then already existed. Likewise, what we could not call hard/soft magic exited before either of those terms were ever coined. That Sanderson can point back at things written in the 80s and 90s has absolutely to do with how he coined and popularized the idea of the division.
Many people are talking about it and even expanding on the idea that there was sub genres of Soft and Hard magic.
Yes. And? I can find people talking about literally anything. It doesn't mean those topics are widely known or understood outside the people already talking about it.
You can find hundreds of sites where people discuss the optimum strategies for tic tac toe. Does that mean everyone knows what the optimum strategies for tic tac toe are? Or is that a topic really only known to people who frequent websites about tic tac toe?
So not really sure what point you are trying to make with this.
That Sanderson popularized the concept and it's not that widely known outside circles aware of Sanderson. I actually searched DakkaDakka for the phrase and basically all the results are our exchange. On this entire 20+ year old forum, most of the discussion about hard/soft magic ever uttered is you and me right now XD
I actually find that surprising >.> even a search for soft/hard or soft and hard + magic basically returns nothing. I could swear this topic has come up more than that, not that it's all that often. I'm pretty damn sure I've seen 'soft magic' used more than the search feature is telling me.
Because it points out how Sanderson is talking about the topic in a way others weren't at the time.
It shows that Sanderson was talking about a topic at a convention and the people on the panel didn't agree. It doesn't show that nobody else was talking about it. I mean, he brings up that Orson Scott Card, a prominent author, was talking about it. That is where he got the whole idea. A single panel at Wondercon in 2005 is not really a great cross section of the community.
To be unambiguous, hard scifi and soft scifi existed before either of those terms were coined. That's what I'm getting at. the hard/soft science fiction dynamic didn't appear as terminology until the 1970s, but stuff written before then already existed. Likewise, what we could not call hard/soft magic exited before either of those terms were ever coined. That Sanderson can point back at things written in the 80s and 90s has absolutely to do with how he coined and popularized the idea of the division.
That doesn't really back up your point. He is pretty much just putting words to concepts that already existed in the literary world.
Yes. And? I can find people talking about literally anything. It doesn't mean those topics are widely known or understood outside the people already talking about it.
You can find hundreds of sites where people discuss the optimum strategies for tic tac toe. Does that mean everyone knows what the optimum strategies for tic tac toe are? Or is that a topic really only known to people who frequent websites about tic tac toe?
Okay. And? You saying that does not refute that this point is being discussed in literary circles amongst authors. Where the entire argument began, you said it wasn't widespread within the genre. It is. There is proof. People that are new to the genre might not know about/understand the concept. But almost anybody that has been writing/reading for a while can tell you the difference.
That Sanderson popularized the concept and it's not that widely known outside circles aware of Sanderson. I actually searched DakkaDakka for the phrase and basically all the results are our exchange. On this entire 20+ year old forum, most of the discussion about hard/soft magic ever uttered is you and me right now XD
I actually find that surprising >.> even a search for soft/hard or soft and hard + magic basically returns nothing. I could swear this topic has come up more than that, not that it's all that often. I'm pretty damn sure I've seen 'soft magic' used more than the search feature is telling me.
Which is kind of crazy because we have had topics discussing Brandon Sanderson before. It is kinda odd it hasn't popped up if it only pops up in circles involving him.
Dreadwinter wrote: It doesn't show that nobody else was talking about it.
He brings up Card in a specific context and does not ascribe the terms hard magic or soft magic too card. He literally ascribes those phrases to himself.
He is pretty much just putting words to concepts that already existed in the literary world.
That's literally my point.
I've said this entire time Sanderson coined/popularized these terms. If he is putting a word to a concept that already existed, that's what coining means.
Where the entire argument began, you said it wasn't widespread within the genre.
It's not but I concede I can't really prove that. Both of us only have anecdotal or unconvincing reasons behind opposing claims. The best I can do is point out that the wikipedia article on the topic was deleted for lack of sources and that you won't find this phrase in many interviews with writers or scholarly articles on fantasy literature but that too I think is ultimately a weak basis.
Ultimately we're both mostly falling back on anecdotal experience there. I know lots of writers where this isn't a topic people discuss much, but that's mostly limited to Royal Road writers and Royal Road uses a lot of LitRPG and Wuxia concepts rather than anything relating to Sanderson.
Which is kind of crazy because we have had topics discussing Brandon Sanderson before. It is kinda odd it hasn't popped up if it only pops up in circles involving him.
Yeah that's my reaction. I guess maybe this particular aspect just hasn't come up before. I'm sure Stormlight Archives and Mistborn have come up plenty enough here in Geek Media but I guess the discussions never gone to Sanderson's lectures or non-fiction writing.
Grimskul wrote: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, for me if you've experienced basically the best SW has had to offer and now you're offered basically garbage in a SW skinsuit that I would consider it a disservice to the franchise as a whole especially when Disney has gone out of it's way to establish what's canon or not. I've seen a lot of other franchises heading the same way (LoTR with the Amazon series coming up for example) and I feel like passively accepting its fate just incentivizes people to continue sub-par quality work. Also, for what it's worth, I mainly just watch clips summarizing the key points of the series since I'm not paying for something that's this bad.
Obviously you're entitled to like what you like, or not. I can't help feeling there's some rosy glasses tinting your view here, though. I mean, the movie commonly held up as the best of the series includes (just off the top of my head) ships traveling at sublight speed between star systems, armour that's too strong for blasters except when it isn't, Luke fortuitously just happening to crash his ship on an unfamiliar and largely uninhabited planet within walking distance of the person he's looking for, Stormtroopers who consistently miss their targets, a pursuer magically appearing at his target's destination ahead of them, and a major plot twist that contradicts the previous movie purely because the guy in charge thought it was a cool thing to do.
A fair number of which are pretty similar to complaints about Disney's SW offerings.
Don't get me wrong, there are certainly issues with a lot of Disney's offerings. I just don't think they're really that different from the issues with the original films, and (with the exception of The Book of Boba Fett being a bit dull) not enough to really limit my enjoyment of them.
So 'soft magic' = any amount of bad writing and donkey-pulls around magic is fine. Gotcha.
.
Uuh...so you claim that (among others) Tolkien was bad writer? Interesting take. Care to explain?
So I'm criticizing someone else's terminology (specifically a forum voice's take on someone else's terminology), explicitly dismissing it as garbage, making no mention of any authors at all, and you're assigning authors to that category and blaming me?
Interesting take.
Has she turned on The Empire? Or, is she doing what every Sith does or does trying to do, striking down her superior?
Because those are not the same thing. At all.
Neither.
She doesn't and never did care about the Empire. Nor is she trying to strike down her 'superior.' (She sort of/kind of did that in passing because he was an obstacle and just generally kind of a dumb-face).
She has (apparently) been obsessed with vengeance on one specific person for the last decade, trying to get into a position where she could have her revenge and shot her shot because Kenobi talked her into suicide. Luckily for her, not checking the body is part of Kenobi's lightsaber form, and apparently made it instinctive while training Anakin (who passed it down to her, sadly).
This is the first SW product that's made me sit back and go: "Y'know, maybe Star Wars isn't really that good, and the good bits of Star Wars are the exceptions, not the rule."
In other words, we're not seeing bad Star Wars. We're just seeing Star Wars.
Has she turned on The Empire? Or, is she doing what every Sith does or does trying to do, striking down her superior?
The Empire looks to be a means to an end to her, so I'd argue she hasn't turned against it because she never felt any allegiance towards it to begin with.
She's probably not doing a Sith thing because her motivation isn't a quest for power that is fulfilled by killing her superior and taking his place. Position of Grand Inquisitor is again just a means to an end on her quest for revenge on Anakin. That's the end of her ambition as far as her portrayal up until this point goes. We don't know what she intends to do if she succeeded. She might stay on if killing Vader gained her Palpi's favor, or she might retire and pick up farming.
From a judicial perspective a high ranking member of the military turning on the Empire is treason, which one assumes carries the death penalty.
From a Sith perspective, doing a Sith thing is fine but failing so miserably is not. Exhibiting so little power and cunning, one assumes, would prompt the higher up to question why he's wasting his time on her, whether that's Vader or the Grand Inquisitor.
Regardless of the exact circumstances, Reva shouldn't be allowed to walk away from that. From that perspective it really is the same thing.
