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 Grimskul wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:
(she can't even read the mind of a 10 year old)

a strongly force sensitive 10 year old, mind. its already in film canon that force sensitives are harder to read, even without much or any training (rey in the force awakens), so its no suprise she couldnt just mind-screw the infomation out of leia.

plus, the inquisitors were, in several sources, noted to be mediocre force users as best, partly becuase thats all they could find to work with after the Purge, and partly as a precaution against them trying Sith promotions against Vader or the Emperor.

She's also just a 10 year old kid. I get that they're never going to show actual torture on screen (much less that of a child), but if you know anything about kids, no matter how precocious they are, it's not hard to make them say or tell you what you want. They're not trained for interrogation and kids don't deal well with extended amounts of targeted pain. They have mind probe tech, just use that if somehow Reva is that weak to even pull it out of an untrained child.

what mind probe tech is that? we see darth vader, a force user refer to a mind probe in ANH, we see force users extract information from people..

the conclusion: Vader was refering to a force technique when he said mind probe.

And if Leia can resist Vader... then of course she can resist a half trained Inqusitor.

So, finally got around to re-subbing and eventually watched Kenobi. Glad there is other stuff to watch on D+, to be honest.
A no-stakes slog through a 'dark story' on Star Wars street with a child and a grumpy (well, flat out sniveling and whiny) middle-aged-but-old-man is not exactly compelling.

In fact, half way through I got bored and re-watched Disney's ZOMBIES instead, because a)I'm on something of a musical kick lately, and b) the characters and the plot are just that much more interesting (though the second to third act transition is a little weak).

About the only thing I'm taking away from this is the fear that one day they'll do 'The Other Kenobi' as a space-filing side project, because of a random conversational tidbit about having a younger brother.
The most interesting mental puzzle is working out if its worse or slightly better than Book of Boba Fett.
And if Alderaan has therapists, because this kid has seen so many people murdered. Mostly by the good guys (at least in her line of sight), so no wonder she never had any interest in becoming a Jedi.

Honeslty it's pretty easy to say Kenobi is better than Boba Fett. As time has done on I look at BoBF and think it was a waste of time.

Only the last three episodes of that show are worth watching. The rest is a bunch of time wasting nonsense in-between a very bland dances with wolves remake.

Kenobi meanwhile is just... That'll do pig? Something that's kind of struck me as Disney+ TV series continue is how time inefficient they are. Don't get me wrong I like quite a few of them but is Moon Knight really six episodes? Are you sure? Like really really sure? Cause I swear they could have slapped that entire series into a standard 2-2.5 hour Marvel film and not cut anything. It's weird how much time is spent in these shows chewing the scenery, walking through halls, and basically just padding out the run time with stuff that's neat enough to watch but at the end I have to wonder if it served any purpose at all beyond padding the run time.

 LordofHats wrote:
Honeslty it's pretty easy to say Kenobi is better than Boba Fett. As time has done on I look at BoBF and think it was a waste of time.

Only the last three episodes of that show are worth watching. The rest is a bunch of time wasting nonsense in-between a very bland dances with wolves remake.

Kenobi meanwhile is just... That'll do pig? Something that's kind of struck me as Disney+ TV series continue is how time inefficient they are. Don't get me wrong I like quite a few of them but is Moon Knight really six episodes? Are you sure? Like really really sure? Cause I swear they could have slapped that entire series into a standard 2-2.5 hour Marvel film and not cut anything. It's weird how much time is spent in these shows chewing the scenery, walking through halls, and basically just padding out the run time with stuff that's neat enough to watch but at the end I have to wonder if it served any purpose at all beyond padding the run time.

I wonder how many of them were originally written as 2-2.5 hour flims that then got "converted" into 6-10 episode series as an attempt to shift with the rising popularity of streaming services at some point in production.

I’m pretty sure I remember Kenobi was to be a film before they changed their mind and made it a series.

 LordofHats wrote:
Honeslty it's pretty easy to say Kenobi is better than Boba Fett. As time has done on I look at BoBF and think it was a waste of time.

Only the last three episodes of that show are worth watching. The rest is a bunch of time wasting nonsense in-between a very bland dances with wolves remake.

Kenobi meanwhile is just... That'll do pig? Something that's kind of struck me as Disney+ TV series continue is how time inefficient they are. Don't get me wrong I like quite a few of them but is Moon Knight really six episodes? Are you sure? Like really really sure? Cause I swear they could have slapped that entire series into a standard 2-2.5 hour Marvel film and not cut anything. It's weird how much time is spent in these shows chewing the scenery, walking through halls, and basically just padding out the run time with stuff that's neat enough to watch but at the end I have to wonder if it served any purpose at all beyond padding the run time.

Boba Fett at least set up something for other characters to do. We could, in theory, get fun adventures with Assassin Lady or see a full blown crime war in the future. BoBF failure was mostly in execution. Kenobi's primary failure seems to be the entire premise (as well as execution)
Kenobi simply rehashes that Leia had a far more interesting life than the Luke (but we knew that already, as she spent her teens as Senator and Ambassador), and all the interesting things in Obi-wan's life have happened already.

This could have been really interesting misadventures related to the aftermath of the Clone Wars. Instead we get the really boring end bits of the purge for Obi to complain about, and a few glimpses at other more interesting stories as they pass by the main characters. Shows where the character's primary goal is to _not_ be involved are a pet peeve. It feeds from the character to the actor to the whole production. Its the same problem I had with Hawkeye, really. If they don't want to be here, I don't really either.

 AduroT wrote:
I’m pretty sure I remember Kenobi was to be a film before they changed their mind and made it a series.

Boba, too, I believe. Also Book of Boba is stretched out by the two episodes of The Mandalorian season 2.5 that happen in between.

Personally I'm not sure I'd consider either show unduly dragging on, though. I'd want to wait for Obi Wan to finish and watch it again in one go, but I thought during the second pass Book of Boba had a much better flow to it. I'm generally getting the impression that the Star Wars shows are created to be binged but released weekly for obvious monetary reasons.

 Geifer wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
I’m pretty sure I remember Kenobi was to be a film before they changed their mind and made it a series.

Boba, too, I believe. Also Book of Boba is stretched out by the two episodes of The Mandalorian season 2.5 that happen in between.

Personally I'm not sure I'd consider either show unduly dragging on, though. I'd want to wait for Obi Wan to finish and watch it again in one go, but I thought during the second pass Book of Boba had a much better flow to it. I'm generally getting the impression that the Star Wars shows are created to be binged but released weekly for obvious monetary reasons.

that may be an extension of the fact these two shows seem to have been written as "1 story, over 6 episodes", not "6 stories, each a episode long". On the binge, that works well and the episodes flow into each other. but over a weekly release like this, it feels we get some very "slow" episodes where not much happens. we're not really used to having a 6 hour show, we tend to get either 2-3 hours of flim that move very fast though a single story, or a 20+ episode season that has a lot of side stories, non plot moving episodes, etc. these shows seem to sit in a sort of unhappy middle ground, too focused to allow for much filler or secondary content to add variety, but too long to fill with a single coherent plotline without it feeling "slow".

and yes, it is telling some of the best episodes of the BoBF were the two that centred around the Mando.

and yes, it is telling some of the best episodes of the BoBF were the two that centred around the Mando.

I think that's because they started BoBF with 'Fan Service' as their only idea, and got lost in the sudden, unconnected, out-of-nowhere and inexplicable storm of 'ethical crime lord.' And decided to paste the non-existent pieces together with Dances with Wolves.

Splicing in a reunion of their marketing opportunity (in the form of Lone Helmet and Little Green Cub) meant they could salvage that mess and reset the formula for Mando Season 3. (never mind that the formula is starting to look a little one note)

Supposedly I was told today that they only had written story for so many episodes, but the suits told them they had to include X many so they just added in the Mando episodes.

Boba and Obi Wan were definitely in the works as films before Solo kind of tanked that whole idea. It's pretty clear they got pulled off the shelf when Mando worked and while Obi Wan is substantially better than Boba, you can definitely see where these were filmed scripts stretched thin to cover about twice the time with significantly less budget.

 LunarSol wrote:
Boba and Obi Wan were definitely in the works as films before Solo kind of tanked that whole idea. It's pretty clear they got pulled off the shelf when Mando worked and while Obi Wan is substantially better than Boba, you can definitely see where these were filmed scripts stretched thin to cover about twice the time with significantly less budget.

Which, ironically, seems to have magnified the problems of Solo.
The first episode in particular seemed to be set on forcing the SW universe to be absolutely tiny. They even literally set up a confrontation on Star Wars Street, where no one (somehow) learned anything at all. They just met so the audience could see them meet.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:
(she can't even read the mind of a 10 year old)

a strongly force sensitive 10 year old, mind. its already in film canon that force sensitives are harder to read, even without much or any training (rey in the force awakens), so its no suprise she couldnt just mind-screw the infomation out of leia.

plus, the inquisitors were, in several sources, noted to be mediocre force users as best, partly becuase thats all they could find to work with after the Purge, and partly as a precaution against them trying Sith promotions against Vader or the Emperor.

She's also just a 10 year old kid. I get that they're never going to show actual torture on screen (much less that of a child), but if you know anything about kids, no matter how precocious they are, it's not hard to make them say or tell you what you want. They're not trained for interrogation and kids don't deal well with extended amounts of targeted pain. They have mind probe tech, just use that if somehow Reva is that weak to even pull it out of an untrained child.

what mind probe tech is that? we see darth vader, a force user refer to a mind probe in ANH, we see force users extract information from people..

the conclusion: Vader was refering to a force technique when he said mind probe.

And if Leia can resist Vader... then of course she can resist a half trained Inqusitor.

I believe it's these IT-O Interrogation Unit droids that are also known to use mind probes. Kinda dumb they use the same term for the force power, but it isn't exclusively a Force wielder term.

Yup. I don't think Lucas film has any fething idea what the hell makes for good compelling stories. At this point it's a non stop parade of fan service cameos for fan service sake.

"What story are we going to tell next?"

"Well, people really like Obi Wan. Why don't we tell an Obi Wan story?"

"Well, do we have a compelling story to tell?"

"We could set it between episodes 3 and 4! That way Obi Wan could meet x y z and we could see Luke and Leia as kids!"

"Start writing it!"


::You will notice that the answer to the question "Do we have a compelling story to tell" was "here are some cameos". Because thats all star wars is now.::


We could tell a Han Solo story!

Then he could meet Young Lando, get the ship! Get his boots! Get his vest! And run into other cameos!

Like who?!

We can tease Darth Maul! People LOVE Darth Maul!

Get writing!

Get his name!

 Lance845 wrote:
Yup. I don't think Lucas film has any fething idea what the hell makes for good compelling stories. At this point it's a non stop parade of fan service cameos for fan service sake.

"What story are we going to tell next?"

"Well, people really like Obi Wan. Why don't we tell an Obi Wan story?"

"Well, do we have a compelling story to tell?"

"We could set it between episodes 3 and 4! That way Obi Wan could meet x y z and we could see Luke and Leia as kids!"

"Start writing it!"


::You will notice that the answer to the question "Do we have a compelling story to tell" was "here are some cameos". Because thats all star wars is now.::


We could tell a Han Solo story!

Then he could meet Young Lando, get the ship! Get his boots! Get his vest! And run into other cameos!

Like who?!

We can tease Darth Maul! People LOVE Darth Maul!

Get writing!

Yup, literally just memberberries and nostalgia bait as the basis for shows rather than well crafted narratives with a point to the story. Feels like ads to watch the next show for you to consume rather than something that was made to address an actual area of interest in the lore for fans. (as you could tell from the weird Mando episodes in BoB).

You can also tell from all the starwars street in Mando.

They actually HAD a good set of new characters with a good new story and they just couldn't help shoe horning in a rotating cast of pre established character from episodes 1-6.

It's gross. There is literally an entire galaxy of people they could meet but it's got to be them.

 LordofHats wrote:
Honeslty it's pretty easy to say Kenobi is better than Boba Fett. As time has done on I look at BoBF and think it was a waste of time.

Only the last three episodes of that show are worth watching. The rest is a bunch of time wasting nonsense in-between a very bland dances with wolves remake.

Kenobi meanwhile is just... That'll do pig? Something that's kind of struck me as Disney+ TV series continue is how time inefficient they are. Don't get me wrong I like quite a few of them but is Moon Knight really six episodes? Are you sure? Like really really sure? Cause I swear they could have slapped that entire series into a standard 2-2.5 hour Marvel film and not cut anything. It's weird how much time is spent in these shows chewing the scenery, walking through halls, and basically just padding out the run time with stuff that's neat enough to watch but at the end I have to wonder if it served any purpose at all beyond padding the run time.

The problem is that Disney isn't looking to make art. They're looking to exploit a thirsty and mostly starved fanbase for profit. They're not doing their best, they're doing what market research tells them will make the most immediate profit.

Quark, in DS9's "Little Green Men" said it best. "The speed of technological progress isn't as important as short-term, quarterly gains."

And that is what Disney's higher ups are looking for.

 Lance845 wrote:
You can also tell from all the starwars street in Mando.

They actually HAD a good set of new characters with a good new story and they just couldn't help shoe horning in a rotating cast of pre established character from episodes 1-6.

It's gross. There is literally an entire galaxy of people they could meet but it's got to be them.

if you don't like it maybe don't watch it?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You can also tell from all the starwars street in Mando.

They actually HAD a good set of new characters with a good new story and they just couldn't help shoe horning in a rotating cast of pre established character from episodes 1-6.

It's gross. There is literally an entire galaxy of people they could meet but it's got to be them.

if you don't like it maybe don't watch it?

Hey look! We are here on this discussion forum to discuss things. Discussion includes criticism. I am not interested in sitting in a echo chamber where only the people who like the things I like have universally positive things to say about it.

Maybe if you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion you shouldn't waste time posting the shallowest of responses?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You can also tell from all the starwars street in Mando.

They actually HAD a good set of new characters with a good new story and they just couldn't help shoe horning in a rotating cast of pre established character from episodes 1-6.

It's gross. There is literally an entire galaxy of people they could meet but it's got to be them.

if you don't like it maybe don't watch it?

I always find this to be a terrible take when it comes to people handling criticism of a show. If it's so good for you to be so flippant, you should be able to defend it at some level rather than try to handwave the valid issues people have brought up for the show so far. It also doesn't help that I am a fan of Star Wars and that's precisely why I'm disappointed because you know they could do way better than what they've given us so far. If we don't voice our concern or dislike towards it, that's effectively giving Disney the green light that this stuff should be continued, which is not something I want to do. You might argue that they won't change course (and under Kathleen Kennedy, I would agree with you), but it's better than basically rewarding them for mediocre work.

Also, I usually give a show 2-3 episodes before coming to some type of preliminary conclusion of whether it's worth slogging through the rest. Given how short this series is, I'm basically just watching short clips online at this point because it's not worth my time to invest any further based on what I've seen.

 Grimskul wrote:
You might argue that they won't change course (and under Kathleen Kennedy, I would agree with you), ...

Seems a fairly safe bet that Kathleen Kennedy is unlikely to be reading the Geek Media section on Dakka.

I know everyone likes to use KK as their punching bag but I really think it's the entire organization that is Lucas Film that is the problem.

The issue, as far as I can see, is that the organization is comprised of almost entirely fan boys at this point. It's like Kevin Smith writing a Batman comic (Cacophony - a comic run that reads like bad fan fiction that has been made into an actual comic). The original Trilogy was full of people doing jobs who could and would tell George Lucas no. And the farther away from the theatrical release we got the more Lucas Film the organization became fans and yes men who never told Lucas anything but "Of course! Great Idea!". The making of the prequel trilogy documentaries highlight this VERY well.

And then we get Dave Filoni coming in with Clone Wars. And suddenly this fan boy with a couple good ideas has become the new George Lucas and his bad fan fiction writing method becomes the way the new content gets made.

So how do I get my fan made character to interact with all my favorite characters in my fan fiction? How do I get my fan fiction on screen so everyone else can see it?

There appears to be a distinct lack of professionals driving an actual narrative to further the universe and tell interesting stories and instead a bunch of fans looking to see the shallowest most fan fictiony mash-ups they can possibly get.

This isn't REALLY KK (Not saying she is blameless, but a team leader can only accomplish what they can with the team they have). And it's been going on since long before Disney purchased them. This is a systemic issue in Lucas Film all together.

Nobody is establishing fundamental criteria for a project to get made the way KF is doing for Marvel. KF says, it has to tell a meaningful story for the character itself. It needs to be a good stand alone story. It needs to feed into the broader meta narrative and feed into the bigger story going on. A show like Obi Wan could never get made under the criteria that KF set for Marvel. Boba Fette wouldn't have either. Most of SW wouldn't have.

The Monkeys are running the Zoo. No wonder they keep throwing gak at us.

Meta analaysis aside, the Obi Won show does drive home this is a show for kids that adults inexplicably watch.

That or the level of competence in a galaxy far far away is very low. The traitor imperial officer having a chat with Euan, whilst sitting next to her colleagues, about how to do sneaky things in the base, combined with the ability to hide someone obviously walking beside you under a cloak was hilarious. Beyond bad, I feel the moments are ripe for years of parody. The baffling thing is is how incompetent are the rebels to have taken that long to defeat the empire...

Even post soviet Russia levels of incompetence and corruption wouldn't stop you spotting there is clearly someone hiding under a cloak...

OK, my burning question is... Is Luke's guardian, Uncle Owen, really an uncle/relation somewhere to him? How on earth (or Tatooine) do they explain why Darth Vader did not look up this 'uncle' to see if Luke was hiding?

Was it really that hard of a bread crumb to follow? Or was this the first of the enormous plot points we gleefully overlooked from ANH?

 MDSW wrote:
OK, my burning question is... Is Luke's guardian, Uncle Owen, really an uncle/relation somewhere to him? How on earth (or Tatooine) do they explain why Darth Vader did not look up this 'uncle' to see if Luke was hiding?

Was it really that hard of a bread crumb to follow? Or was this the first of the enormous plot points we gleefully overlooked from ANH?

Arguably it’s a plot hole from Return of the Jedi, when we first for sure know Vader is Luke’s Dad

Yes, Owen is Anakin's step brother, he was the son of the man that Shmi married after she was freed from slavery.

It's a long time since I saw Ep3 (I try not to watch it any more than I have to) but IIRC Anakin/Vader has no idea that Padme gives birth before she dies, so I think he pieces together who Luke is further down the track, and obviously doesn't know about Leia at all until the very end, but I could be wrong.

Isn't Padme sporting a fake baby bump at her funeral so Anakin/Vader was most likely unaware that he had offspring until after the first Death Star went pop and ISB or whoever researched the pilot that done wrecked their best toy

Vader never looked up Owen for the simple reason that Owen was surrounded and protected by Vader's true nemisis -- sand...

 MDSW wrote:
OK, my burning question is... Is Luke's guardian, Uncle Owen, really an uncle/relation somewhere to him? How on earth (or Tatooine) do they explain why Darth Vader did not look up this 'uncle' to see if Luke was hiding?

Was it really that hard of a bread crumb to follow? Or was this the first of the enormous plot points we gleefully overlooked from ANH?

It wasn't really a plot hole. Anakin met Owen in passing the night his mother died, and immediately rushed off to Genosis to have sexy arena battles with Padme and giant cats.

But as far as we know, Vader didn't know about any surviving kids. The name 'Luke Skywalker' wasn't on anyone's radar until after the battle of Yavin, and before Empire Strikes Back (where he was obsessively pursuing Han and Leia as path to 'young Skywalker'). At that point Owen didn't matter, because Luke is already running around the galaxy. The EU material expanded on things between Episode 4 and 5, and Luke's name vaguely gets outed at some point, and Vader connects it to the pilot 'strong in the Force' and then himself. Most of what he does from that point on is pretty focused on Luke.

---
Of course, _now_ thanks to this series, it -is- a plot hole, because Owen now has a personal interaction with an obesssed Inquisitor with his mind fully ablaze about 'Luke Skywalker' after a heated argument with Obi-wan Kenobi, and making sidelong glances to the latter's hiding place. And was saved by plot armor and dish-hat inquisitor being fed up with the 'gutter-rat, droid-owning Sister' daring to be above whatever bizarre prejudices are a factor in their tiny group.
All because we just had to have all those easter eggs all together on Star Wars street.

We could have had an intensely personal quest of Obi-wan setting on a training mission set by the ghost of Quaff-down Gin, where he comes to terms with Vader's identity and interacts with some Clone Wars plot hook, but instead we get this weird contortion trying to not violate canon while trying to shove in as many nostalgia buttons as possible. So many that there isn't a lot of room for story or breathing room. And it manages to be oddly boring as well, because we know everyone will wander back to their starting marks for New Hope.

I'd care about not-Claudia Black and angry Inquisitor, but I don't know if they're in other secondary material and they automatically live, or if they automatically die at the end of this. Either way, the stakes are real low.