GaroRobe wrote: It may have been mentioned already, but there is artwork of the "original" squat designs that appear in the codex. A nice call back to the original army and I guess evidence that those iterations of squats are still canon to 40k
Ah thats cool, which piece of art is it? I take it not the one of the Squat with the hoverboard haha.
Yes seconded. For those of us plebs that don't have the book, what classic art/designs are there?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They clearly don't even know how tall they are since they're described as 4 feet or 1.4 meters
and 4 feet is 1.2 meters
and 1.4 meters is 4 1/2 feet (which is a lot easier to believe equates to 5 feet when you include helmets and thick soled boots)
I'm willing to go with 4 feet as the intended measurement. It's far more likely that, no disrespect intended, backwards islanders measuring in body parts of dead saints would get the conversion to scientifically sound measurements wrong than botch the awkward measurements they are supposed to be familiar with.
Speculation on my part, but in my opinion tall Squats, like a lot of other things, are just GW being bad at scaling things because they don't bother to have a naked member of a race in neutral pose against which to check their sculpts. They're far more interested in creating models that look or feel right in isolation in accordance with their chosen style, making only the barest effort towards fitting them in with the rest of their models. GW dwarfs before they got embiggened towards the end of Fantasy's lifespan were quite small and unimpressive. That goes against GW's modern style of hefty models with large, plentiful and recognizable detail. The larger dwarf may not be representative of the supposed size of the average member of the race, but both in isolation and held side by side with an old one it looks impressive and, as subjective as that is, just right for the desired style.
As another example, consider Terminators. Terminator armor, just the armor, looks cool. It has a very distinctive look. Yet it's unfathomable that it could have been sculpted that way if the sculptor had even for a second considered human anatomy. Even if you say sculpting thirty years ago wasn't advanced enough and sculptors got all manner of things wrong as part of the learning process, the look of Terminators wasn't changed in later iterations either. The poses were opened up and didn't look quite like the blocky old, simple casts anymore, but the style and horrid anatomy stayed intact. Because, as it seems to me, style rates far higher at GW than verisimilitude.
It's also a handy way of explaining the humongous Praetors in the Horus Heresy box. Apparently somebody thought they needed to be unreasonably large.
I'd like for GW to give more consideration to scale and proportions, and have said so time and again. But truth be told, it's just not something that should be reasonably expected of GW. They just don't work like that and for every instance where it seems they put effort towards fixing things, they release something questionable again that makes you wonder if they have any direction at all. There is probably no point in dwelling on what the exact size of a space dwarf is because GW will settle on different numbers and not worry about how irreconcilable that is.
Therefore I propose that what we're looking at are Schrödinger's Squats that are at the same time 4 and 5 feet tall, and if you really want to they're 1.4m tall as well.
Surely GW's artist make body templates for their models before sculping parts and can easily compare them to previous template meshes... I think they just don't care at all like mentioned
From “Being Squatted” to becoming “The New Squattness”!!
Reading the various reviews or watching YouTube reports has been super interesting. Did they set up reviewers to paint and play test with past releases? It seems really well coordinated.
Overall I feel pretty happy with there new space dwarves. I think there are some things that were spot on, and some misses (imo). Is there anything missing that we can expect to see in the next couple years? Dedicated scouts? Flyer? Super heavy tank?
I missed out on the pre-order box, but I’m not certain I needed all that right now. My local GW confirmed they will have lots of the free minis on the 24th so I’ll get to play with painting at least one then. I’m leaning towards a Greater Thurian League scheme, which I know hasn’t been a favourite. But hey I like Ultramarines too
pleasestopit wrote: Surely GW's artist make body templates for their models before sculping parts and can easily compare them to previous template meshes... I think they just don't care at all like mentioned
IMO they're doing it deliberately, but for practical reasons. Just as all their heads, hands and weapons are oversized, they're oversizing small statured models so they don't look ridiculous.
Let's say that a primaris is 8 feet and they use a 5mm=1 foot scale. A 6 foot human is 30mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is 40mm tall and a 4 foot votann would be 20mm tall.
from an aesthetic perspective having an army that's 20mm tall would look pretty ridiculous, especially when you're trying to sell them as a hardy warrior race. They'd look very small, be very fiddly and not have a lot of imposing quality when on the battlefield.
So, for good or ill, IMO I think GW have a heroic scale for their models deliberately so they look good on the table. This goes for sisters and guard and eldar as well.
Any news when the kits will be released on their own? I'm interested in grabbing the base squad just to paint in some of those sick lego space color schemes. And maybe some of the beserkers as 30k Ogryn count-as.
pleasestopit wrote: Surely GW's artist make body templates for their models before sculping parts and can easily compare them to previous template meshes... I think they just don't care at all like mentioned
IMO they're doing it deliberately, but for practical reasons. Just as all their heads, hands and weapons are oversized, they're oversizing small statured models so they don't look ridiculous.
Let's say that a primaris is 8 feet and they use a 5mm=1 foot scale. A 6 foot human is 30mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is 40mm tall and a 4 foot votann would be 20mm tall.
from an aesthetic perspective having an army that's 20mm tall would look pretty ridiculous, especially when you're trying to sell them as a hardy warrior race. They'd look very small, be very fiddly and not have a lot of imposing quality when on the battlefield.
So, for good or ill, IMO I think GW have a heroic scale for their models deliberately so they look good on the table. This goes for sisters and guard and eldar as well.
This is something you really notice in the 3D printing world where there are a lot of designers from 3D game and art backgrounds getting into model making via making renders for people to print. A lot of them use true-scale because when that's rendered (and rendered at full screen size so utterly massive compared to a model) it looks fantastic.
However you end up with super thin parts that break really easily even with good resin. Because the models aren't practical for game objects. You get too much detail; you get details overlapping; thin parts and more. All things that GW seems very good at avoiding - likely because their sculptors are working side by side with their casting team and doing test prints all the way along.
So I can totally get making small things "bigger" and not everything true scale so that things are more practical as game objects.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Any news when the kits will be released on their own? I'm interested in grabbing the base squad just to paint in some of those sick lego space color schemes. And maybe some of the beserkers as 30k Ogryn count-as.
Curious about this as well. I had hoped they would get rules for killteam so i'd have an excuse to buy and paint up a box of the basic troops. Starting an army for 40k is out of the question right now. But I like the basic infantry enough to collect a box. And the kit seems to be designed with a multitude of options that would be perfect for KT. Hopefully it won't be more than a month long wait.
pleasestopit wrote: Surely GW's artist make body templates for their models before sculping parts and can easily compare them to previous template meshes... I think they just don't care at all like mentioned
IMO they're doing it deliberately, but for practical reasons. Just as all their heads, hands and weapons are oversized, they're oversizing small statured models so they don't look ridiculous.
Let's say that a primaris is 8 feet and they use a 5mm=1 foot scale. A 6 foot human is 30mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is 40mm tall and a 4 foot votann would be 20mm tall.
from an aesthetic perspective having an army that's 20mm tall would look pretty ridiculous, especially when you're trying to sell them as a hardy warrior race. They'd look very small, be very fiddly and not have a lot of imposing quality when on the battlefield.
So, for good or ill, IMO I think GW have a heroic scale for their models deliberately so they look good on the table. This goes for sisters and guard and eldar as well.
This is something you really notice in the 3D printing world where there are a lot of designers from 3D game and art backgrounds getting into model making via making renders for people to print. A lot of them use true-scale because when that's rendered (and rendered at full screen size so utterly massive compared to a model) it looks fantastic.
However you end up with super thin parts that break really easily even with good resin. Because the models aren't practical for game objects. You get too much detail; you get details overlapping; thin parts and more. All things that GW seems very good at avoiding - likely because their sculptors are working side by side with their casting team and doing test prints all the way along.
So I can totally get making small things "bigger" and not everything true scale so that things are more practical as game objects.
Yes, GW is usually pretty good at scaling things to look the part at actual model size. It gives their models a certain appeal that is not necessarily found on their competitors' models.
Interestingly GW abandoned that to a degree on Sisters of Battle who have some very delicate skull and fleur-de-lys motifs. Especially some of the skulls lack definition and the depth of detail you'd expect of GW. It's an understandable move, considering GW's style is generally beefy and Sisters are pretty slender and more delicate detail goes with that, but you can see that it does not cast very well with GW's methods.
Its considerably more convenient for, casting in hips, sculpt face expressions, overall design, durability for war-game has opposed collector for display etc to have scale increased and that is what GW been doing since they abandoned metal production ( which holds detail a lot smaller and better )... From a client perspective its also better since easier to assemble chunk parts, more durable for what this is intended for (game miniatures), easier to paint and most of all its actually more pleasing to see on the table as an army than micro detailed small true 25mm/ 28mm.
Theres plenty more reasons but from production point of view does make sense to have a few extra mm. In the end they look just fine as they are. Who cares if they dont match 100% AoS dwarfs? not me.
I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Any news when the kits will be released on their own? I'm interested in grabbing the base squad just to paint in some of those sick lego space color schemes. And maybe some of the beserkers as 30k Ogryn count-as.
Curious about this as well. I had hoped they would get rules for killteam so i'd have an excuse to buy and paint up a box of the basic troops. Starting an army for 40k is out of the question right now. But I like the basic infantry enough to collect a box. And the kit seems to be designed with a multitude of options that would be perfect for KT. Hopefully it won't be more than a month long wait.
I wouldn't be shocked if one of the upcoming 'gallowdark' follow-ups has a Votann kill team. As we've seen with the Chaos Marines and the Kommandos, KT boxes are a good way to squeeze an extra SKU for the main army line into the product release cycle.
NAVARRO wrote: I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
I doubt it. GW didn't give Sisters a Christmas box in the year of their release, and that was in January and March. With Squats releasing so late in the year, a Christmas box a month or two after their codex releases seems out of character for GW.
NAVARRO wrote: I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
I doubt it. GW didn't give Sisters a Christmas box in the year of their release, and that was in January and March. With Squats releasing so late in the year, a Christmas box a month or two after their codex releases seems out of character for GW.
Agreed, I think with the launch box and combat patrol plus waves of models likely running through to November there's no real incentive for GW to put together an xmas box here. I would bet on Votann getting an xmas box in 2023 though.
For 2022 I think it's more likely we see factions like Craftworlds or Orks get a discount box with some of their stuff from 6+ months ago, as unlike Sisters they have far more older models to bundle in with the new.
NAVARRO wrote: I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
New armies usually get a battleforce the following year. The cutoff point seems to be about 7-8 months to be included (Soulblight) But some like Ossiarchs weren't in a battleforce for two years.
NAVARRO wrote: Its considerably more convenient for, casting in hips, sculpt face expressions, overall design, durability for war-game has opposed collector for display etc to have scale increased and that is what GW been doing since they abandoned metal production ( which holds detail a lot smaller and better )... From a client perspective its also better since easier to assemble chunk parts, more durable for what this is intended for (game miniatures), easier to paint and most of all its actually more pleasing to see on the table as an army than micro detailed small true 25mm/ 28mm.
Theres plenty more reasons but from production point of view does make sense to have a few extra mm. In the end they look just fine as they are. Who cares if they dont match 100% AoS dwarfs? not me.
I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
We aren't talking about few mm's though. More like over 20% too big...
Unless you think models are <10mm few mm's is flat out wrong.
People complained about lack of true scale for marines and this is bigger error...
pleasestopit wrote: Surely GW's artist make body templates for their models before sculping parts and can easily compare them to previous template meshes... I think they just don't care at all like mentioned
Seeing they make helmets same/almost the same size as heads, a body part that should be trivial to compare no matter if on sprue or in 3D software, I kind of doubt that...
Eh, no SM is that tall (see Space Marine 2 trailer). Though funnily enough stupid stone age units strike here too, GW can't decide if canon 7 feet is supposed to be closer to 2 meters or 2.2 (with adeptus uglysquattus tending toward the former and primaris toward the latter, despite both being described as around the same ~7 feet description, go figure).
NAVARRO wrote: I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
I doubt it. GW didn't give Sisters a Christmas box in the year of their release, and that was in January and March. With Squats releasing so late in the year, a Christmas box a month or two after their codex releases seems out of character for GW.
Agreed, I think with the launch box and combat patrol plus waves of models likely running through to November there's no real incentive for GW to put together an xmas box here. I would bet on Votann getting an xmas box in 2023 though.
For 2022 I think it's more likely we see factions like Craftworlds or Orks get a discount box with some of their stuff from 6+ months ago, as unlike Sisters they have far more older models to bundle in with the new.
Cheers. Yeah Im overoptimistic.
I agree...For sure the releases of Sagitaur and Hekaton and all the remaining models will be continuous releases until Christmas, so not much of a reason for a Christmas bundle.
tneva82 wrote:
NAVARRO wrote: Its considerably more convenient for, casting in hips, sculpt face expressions, overall design, durability for war-game has opposed collector for display etc to have scale increased and that is what GW been doing since they abandoned metal production ( which holds detail a lot smaller and better )... From a client perspective its also better since easier to assemble chunk parts, more durable for what this is intended for (game miniatures), easier to paint and most of all its actually more pleasing to see on the table as an army than micro detailed small true 25mm/ 28mm.
Theres plenty more reasons but from production point of view does make sense to have a few extra mm. In the end they look just fine as they are. Who cares if they dont match 100% AoS dwarfs? not me.
I was wondering if this year GW will do Xmas bundles and if Votann will get some more love then... I need more boxes!
We aren't talking about few mm's though. More like over 20% too big...
Unless you think models are <10mm few mm's is flat out wrong.
People complained about lack of true scale for marines and this is bigger error...
Error in the sense of this being an unplanned accident or actually a conscious design decision you just don't agree with?
It does not matter much at this point and I was trying to be constructive in pointing out why I think GW is moving more and more the scale up on most things.
If you think of metal 25 / 28mm of the past in comparison with 32+ of todays plastics it's a clear shift up and I did point out some of the factors that may influenced that.
Either way I'm not saying that for many fans this scale will actually break their immersion, I understand that. The same way space marines before Primaris did not spike my interest much. It's a personal thing.
I would say that if you really want these Votann to be smaller, it's actually not that difficult to convert since you have a clear gap between the trousers and the shoes that you can cut to make them a tad smaller if you wish.
Design of a hoverbike/trike from this month's issue of the Predator comic, by none other than Kev 'Daemonifuge' Walker. I think I'd like the Votann hovertrikes better if they looked more like this, and the big coats would certainly look better if they were done up properly, and not just draped over heavy armour.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Any news when the kits will be released on their own? I'm interested in grabbing the base squad just to paint in some of those sick lego space color schemes. And maybe some of the beserkers as 30k Ogryn count-as.
I asked a retailer locally and they thought within coming weeks, although impossible to say for sure.
Togusa wrote: So has an entire army ever been banned from tournaments the week it released before? Or is this the first time?
This happened with Orks as well. The reason back then was simply, that since the book is locked in a limited boxed set, it isn't considered part of official circulation that is needed for tournaments. The same would apply here. So this doesn't necessarily mean it's banned because people perceive it OP. Tbh we have far more overpowered at release messes than LoV by far in the past. Everytime it was waited until GW came up with a fix or they enforced house rules/limitations. Tournament don't even need to do that, if a Codex would be so OP that it was pointless to show up with anything else,vthen people will only show up with that army (or they don't really care about winning but rather participating anyway).
In my opinion people are blowing this out of proportion, and should wait until the Codex and units are at least released before they panic.
Danny76 wrote: What is everyone’s thoughts on the alternate colour schemes in the book?
I quite like the red one, green is ok too.
I think with the bombardment of orange schemes from everyone, I kind of got saturated XD.
Its a really really difficult one and I have been this week looking for photos and colours schemes, to no luck.
The only colour combo I don't want is light blue since those are my space wolves.
I like the red too but dont dig red on vehicles.
Hopefully once the army is out and painters can get their hands on these we will se custom schemes.
At one point I thought of doing a renegade Votann force with most schemes from all other factions. That would look very colourful and inconsistent.
Not sure.
Togusa wrote: So has an entire army ever been banned from tournaments the week it released before? Or is this the first time?
This happened with Orks as well. The reason back then was simply, that since the book is locked in a limited boxed set, it isn't considered part of official circulation that is needed for tournaments. The same would apply here. So this doesn't necessarily mean it's banned because people perceive it OP. Tbh we have far more overpowered at release messes than LoV by far in the past. Everytime it was waited until GW came up with a fix or they enforced house rules/limitations. Tournament don't even need to do that, if a Codex would be so OP that it was pointless to show up with anything else,vthen people will only show up with that army (or they don't really care about winning but rather participating anyway).
In my opinion people are blowing this out of proportion, and should wait until the Codex and units are at least released before they panic.
The above image was the source posted about the ban in 40kGen. See anything that indicates that the ban being about a limited initial release, or anything like that?
Or is there a different reason quoted, one indicating they don't want to deal with a challenge...
Dysartes wrote: The above image was the source posted about the ban in 40kGen. See anything that indicates that the ban being about a limited initial release, or anything like that?
the german tournament rules/guidelines that are more or less used everywhere state that no codex without current FAQ/Errata is allowed
so LoV are banned from German tournaments by default until they get their FAQ/Errata (which is usually 2 weeks after the regular release) that an additional reason is given on reddit, I guess they just wanted to make a point
Or is there a different reason quoted, one indicating they don't want to deal with a challenge...
Well the challenge is buy votann or forget winning
You can of course just put votann armies to top-3 and ask them not to come as games would be foregone conclusion so boring games for everybody. Votann players get the titles they crave, others get at least to play.
I don't think Votann will have quite the curb-stomping ability everyone thinks they will. Sure, they look good, but they also have glaring weaknesses to exploit, even before a nerfing in a FAQ.
I'm waiting for tourneys 9 months from now when Votann will have something like 52% win rates and we can all look back at how OP we thought they'd be.
I suspect nine months from now people won't care about tournament performance in 9th ed because everyone is going to be too busy absorbing the 10th ed rules and figuring out what's hot in the new edition.
Personally, it will be interesting to see the timeline for the next wave of Squats with 10th ed taking up a chunk of next year. The starter box armies are bound to push other armies back to at least October, if not more if GW hasn't sorted out their logistics by then. That's going to take them close to the Christmas hiatus. You have to wonder if we won't even be able to make the joke for Squats that their codex is invalidated after a year because GW just can't fit one in until early '24.
Second waves can be a big thing these days. I think more so than in the distant past because regular established armies as so much bigger than they were.
I think AoS shows this up really well. Armies like Fyreslayers, Ossiarchs, Flesheaters etc... that have a solid functional core of models, but which have a very limited range both visually and tactically - tend to be far less popular.
Meanwhile armies that got a second wave like Lumineth prove to be far more popular in general. More models means more visual and tactical diversity and choice.
40K shows the same thing I think with Genestealer Cults. Now Cults did cheat because early on they basically piggy backed most of the Imperial Guard line of models ot augment their release. However that kind of just made them less popular visually I think because you had a huge divide between the professional military of the Guard (with a few cult icons on vehicles) and then the rag-tag mining uprisers of the Cult models.
Fastforward to today and the Cults have a full army and the IG component is much reduced. It works better as a rag-tag mining uprising force with mutations and more.
Again visually and tactically they are more diverse and popular for it.
Squats have a good chunk of models at launch and a decent amount of diversity on show.A second wave will help solidify their position long term. So when they get that will be very important for them
Well i got my model of the month (which i had to build in store) and a fun wee chap he is
I think i'll next a box of his chums for stargrave and similar
(interestingly he's got a faceplate rather than a me of iron dome, but clearly has robot feet as there's a definate rod between boot and the bottom of the void suit)
Got a favor here.
Can anyone who has the figures, give me the ground-to-eyeline height in MMs for
Votaan
and
Necromunda Squat Prospectors?
Doing an article on Squats and Space dwarves with lots of scale comparisons and though I don't have the figures, I feel it would complete the article to at least be able to provide measurements.
I have seen mention of this, is it to stop sprues being sold on ebay?
I could see it also being used to generate more interest in stores as well. Plus there is the old adage that the longer you stay then the more likely you are to buy something/anything. That's just conjecture on my part though...
I have seen mention of this, is it to stop sprues being sold on ebay?
How do you even enforce that? They give you the sprue, "Oh sorry, I just remembered I have somewhere to be!" as you put the sprue in your bag and walk out.
What are they going to do, physically prevent you from leaving until you assemble it or try and retrieve the model from your possession?
Had to build mine in store too. Wouldn't have normally got the mini of the month but wanted to see what the Hearthkyn were like for myself, quite like it.
Unfortunately it seems the sprue connection for the back piece was done in a way that meant i somehow accidentally cut off a small amount of his void suit using the sprue cutters though.
Characters are on 40mm bases whilst infantry are on 28mm bases (except maybe the one on the far right of the picture maybe looks to be on a 32mm base for unknown reasons).
I have seen mention of this, is it to stop sprues being sold on ebay?
How do you even enforce that? They give you the sprue, "Oh sorry, I just remembered I have somewhere to be!" as you put the sprue in your bag and walk out.
What are they going to do, physically prevent you from leaving until you assemble it or try and retrieve the model from your possession?
Most locations have hired extra staff on a temporary basis, it's a couple of people on the door and then one assigned to stick close to each customer and monitor them as they build. Prior to taking possession of the free mini, customers are required to sign a waiver stating they'll complete the build on site before trying to leave the premises and that GW have no liability for any injury caused in the event of physical injury should the customer attempt to break the terms of the agreement and physical action becomes necessary (all levels of which are authorised).
A few stores are just relying on general norms and assuming it will work out okay, luckily this is sufficient much of the time (upwards of 25%>
dan2026 wrote: Does anyone know which bit in the Warriors kit is supposed to be the Medipak?
Or any of the Wargear really?
Nothing is labelled.
Medic is the one with a back pack and a weird scroll thing on the hand... Comms the one with loads of antennas and the scanner is the weird one with a strange machine on the back pack.
dan2026 wrote: Does anyone know which bit in the Warriors kit is supposed to be the Medipak?
Or any of the Wargear really?
Nothing is labelled.
Medic is the one with a back pack and a weird scroll thing on the hand... Comms the one with loads of antennas and the scanner is the weird one with a strange machine on the back pack.
dan2026 wrote: Does anyone know which bit in the Warriors kit is supposed to be the Medipak?
Or any of the Wargear really?
Nothing is labelled.
Medic is the one with a back pack and a weird scroll thing on the hand... Comms the one with loads of antennas and the scanner is the weird one with a strange machine on the back pack.
Thanks.Was this written down somewhere?
I bet that will be on the individual regiment boxes back once they are released, but only found this info scattered on Facebook comments of people also asking the same thing.
Does anybody know what the large backpack (c65) is for? I'm not talking about the medic-specific one. I can't work out who is supposed to have it?
I'd just like to add that I'm loving these models, they have rekindled my hobby love. I wasn't sure at first (and reading through this thread certainly didn't add any good vibes ), but after seeing the troops all assembled with helmets it was like a switch was tripped in my brain. Loving the Trans-Hyperion (sp?) colour scheme, I can see me actually finishing this army for a change!
ListenToMeWarriors wrote:Characters are on 40mm bases whilst infantry are on 28mm bases (except maybe the one on the far right of the picture maybe looks to be on a 32mm base for unknown reasons).
Thanks for that! I've run the numbers and fit a pretty good estimation that the Saturday Prospectors are are 25mm to the eye and the Votaan are 26mm
Thanks for that. This could have been just what I was looking for, but unfortunately it's barely better than any other shot setting figures next to each other.
Why in the fricassee would someone go to the trouble of setting up a base-compensated scale background and then not only place the figures in front of the graduations, but also take the picture from a raised angle, making accurate measurement impossible for the viewer!?! Aaaaargh!
I probably shouldn't be surprised though since the majority of players use "scale" shots simply to visually compare new and recent GW figs to each other. Actual size and mixing era or brand isn't really a factor for them.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Does anybody know what the large backpack (c65) is for? I'm not talking about the medic-specific one. I can't work out who is supposed to have it?
If 12b is the medic, then c65 is the medic backpack.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: for the free hearthkyn 24 or 25mm to the eye (well mid face plate as you cant see the eyes) then about 30 to the top of the backpack
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Does anybody know what the large backpack (c65) is for? I'm not talking about the medic-specific one. I can't work out who is supposed to have it?
If 12b is the medic, then c65 is the medic backpack.
Spoiler:
Hold up. I was convinced that the medic was the guy operating the wrist-mounted computer, and the backpack was the other one (c95)
I can't lie, I'm very disappointed if I've assembled the wrong dude.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Hold up. I was convinced that the medic was the guy operating the wrist-mounted computer, and the backpack was the other one (c95)
c95 backpack (on model 10b) is the pan spectral scanner. Model 11b is the comms array.
So I don't know for definite but I'm going with C95 as the scanner and C65 as the medic backpack. Although I think I'll do some converting to make them look a little more like a Doc.
Olthannon wrote: So I don't know for definite but I'm going with C95 as the scanner and C65 as the medic backpack. Although I think I'll do some converting to make them look a little more like a Doc.
This is my impression as well. I was looking through some of the codex reviews to confirm, but no one actually showed the damn miniature pages.
The weird thing is, the medic is supposed to be unable to change their weapon loadout, but in all the photos, they have a pistol. No idea what that's about.
Olthannon wrote: So I don't know for definite but I'm going with C95 as the scanner and C65 as the medic backpack. Although I think I'll do some converting to make them look a little more like a Doc.
This is my impression as well. I was looking through some of the codex reviews to confirm, but no one actually showed the damn miniature pages.
The weird thing is, the medic is supposed to be unable to change their weapon loadout, but in all the photos, they have a pistol. No idea what that's about.
They all have an Autoch Bolt pistol, don't they?
But that's a bolt revolver which none of them can have, so....
Olthannon wrote: So I don't know for definite but I'm going with C95 as the scanner and C65 as the medic backpack. Although I think I'll do some converting to make them look a little more like a Doc.
This is my impression as well. I was looking through some of the codex reviews to confirm, but no one actually showed the damn miniature pages.
The weird thing is, the medic is supposed to be unable to change their weapon loadout, but in all the photos, they have a pistol. No idea what that's about.
Yeah, there's no way for the medic to get that pistol. Also, why have they modelled the medic (if that's what it is) with a pistol and knife? Why not the bolter/Ion Blaster?
On a different note I love the picture in the codex of the Grimnyr with the alternative head, it's very cool. I'm looking forward to seeing what alternative options the as-yet unreleased other kits have.
Olthannon wrote: So I don't know for definite but I'm going with C95 as the scanner and C65 as the medic backpack. Although I think I'll do some converting to make them look a little more like a Doc.
This is my impression as well. I was looking through some of the codex reviews to confirm, but no one actually showed the damn miniature pages.
The weird thing is, the medic is supposed to be unable to change their weapon loadout, but in all the photos, they have a pistol. No idea what that's about.
Yeah, there's no way for the medic to get that pistol. Also, why have they modelled the medic (if that's what it is) with a pistol and knife? Why not the bolter/Ion Blaster?
On a different note I love the picture in the codex of the Grimnyr with the alternative head, it's very cool. I'm looking forward to seeing what alternative options the as-yet unreleased other kits have.
I think these kits are probably done with both Killteam and also the next Codex in mind. Yes a bit annoying for the OCD in us but rather have more options than not, I think.
Also these sprues are so jam packed with stuff it's easy enough for conversions or alternative builds.
Absolutely lovely models they look even better irl.
bullyboy wrote: If you can’t tell who the medic is, does it really matter? Probably a good chance your opponent has no clue either!!
Two wrongs makes a who cares.
This. Who gives a feth? Just mark whoever, however you want, and make sure you tell your opponent who is who in the unit if they ask.
Exactly. Before the Plastic Cadian Command Squad came out with a medical bag, I used to use the Grenade Launcher spare magazine pouch painted a lighter shade of green with a small white cross on it.
Exactly. Before the Plastic Cadian Command Squad came out with a medical bag, I used to use the Grenade Launcher spare magazine pouch painted a lighter shade of green with a small white cross on it.
There was literally a metal Medic model that was a single piece sculpt(with an accompanying casualty model even!) in the old Command Squad box, so that's...odd to do.
Anyways, it's not like this is the first time for the medic setups to be strange. For quite some time the new Scions box told you to use the pistol with a saw underneath of it, despite there being no rules way to do that.
Olthannon wrote: So I don't know for definite but I'm going with C95 as the scanner and C65 as the medic backpack. Although I think I'll do some converting to make them look a little more like a Doc.
This is my impression as well. I was looking through some of the codex reviews to confirm, but no one actually showed the damn miniature pages.
The weird thing is, the medic is supposed to be unable to change their weapon loadout, but in all the photos, they have a pistol. No idea what that's about.
Yeah, there's no way for the medic to get that pistol. Also, why have they modelled the medic (if that's what it is) with a pistol and knife? Why not the bolter/Ion Blaster?
On a different note I love the picture in the codex of the Grimnyr with the alternative head, it's very cool. I'm looking forward to seeing what alternative options the as-yet unreleased other kits have.
I think these kits are probably done with both Killteam and also the next Codex in mind. Yes a bit annoying for the OCD in us but rather have more options than not, I think.
Also these sprues are so jam packed with stuff it's easy enough for conversions or alternative builds.
Absolutely lovely models they look even better irl.
I think you're right RE Kill Team, it would explain the plethora of options.
Agreed about the models too, in hand they are even better than on screen. I'm so glad I decided to buy the box set!
Exactly. Before the Plastic Cadian Command Squad came out with a medical bag, I used to use the Grenade Launcher spare magazine pouch painted a lighter shade of green with a small white cross on it.
There was literally a metal Medic model that was a single piece sculpt(with an accompanying casualty model even!) in the old Command Squad box, so that's...odd to do. t.
Not all of my Cadian Command Squads were made using metal Command Squad boxes.
Not all of my Imperial Guard armies were Cadians.
Those kitbashed counts as medical pack grenade launcher pouches ended up on Mordian, Praetorian and Tallarn models.
Not all of my Cadian Command Squads were made using metal Command Squad boxes.
Not all of my Imperial Guard armies were Cadians.
Those kitbashed counts as medical pack grenade launcher pouches ended up on Mordian, Praetorian and Tallarn models.
So, not really...odd to do.
I agree. Conversions were kind of expected (or at least encouraged) even in the days of metal. Clever conversions -especially if obvious and facilitating good recognition- were seen as a very good thing. It was by no means expected that you would buy the same medic figure every time.
The title comes across as a little....patronizing? Comparing it to the Land Train as if it's "better" than that idea was when it doesn't have the important reason people liked the Land Train, which was the whole thing of it being a Land Train.The only similarity they have is that they're both something big with lots of weapons. It's not really a suitable replacement for the idea.
That will be a shame if they don't do a big super-heavy land train type thing, that was one of the opportunities that modern plastic production could have made the most of, by realising some of the potential from the old Epic range war engines.
Nice to see some Votann love and I cannot wait for the kits to be released.
It's been a month or so after the collectors box so it's time for the army to land.
Hekaton looks amazing but not my most wanted kit, first I need all them suits and berserkers.
Still on the hunt for 5 more ironkin heads so if anyone wants to sell/trade just give me a shout.
NAVARRO wrote: Nice to see some Votann love and I cannot wait for the kits to be released.
It's been a month or so after the collectors box so it's time for the army to land.
Hekaton looks amazing but not my most wanted kit, first I need all them suits and berserkers.
Still on the hunt for 5 more ironkin heads so if anyone wants to sell/trade just give me a shout.
When the next wave comes you can have any ironkin heads I get.
The land fortress looks better and better the more I see.
The land train wasn’t some amazing idea or model that should be replicated. It didn’t function very well as a concept at epic scale where there was room for a crazy long model, on the modern 40k table top you would not be able to place one anywhere. It was really a wacky concept model that was a sign of epic getting a bit silly, but then again epic could. But the idea that it should be held in high regard is just nostalgia turned up to 11.
Andykp wrote: The land train wasn’t some amazing idea or model that should be replicated. It didn’t function very well as a concept at epic scale where there was room for a crazy long model, on the modern 40k table top you would not be able to place one anywhere. It was really a wacky concept model that was a sign of epic getting a bit silly, but then again epic could. But the idea that it should be held in high regard is just nostalgia turned up to 11.
Sorry but
Maybe that is just your opinion, but this image says its wrong
NAVARRO wrote: Nice to see some Votann love and I cannot wait for the kits to be released.
It's been a month or so after the collectors box so it's time for the army to land.
Hekaton looks amazing but not my most wanted kit, first I need all them suits and berserkers.
Still on the hunt for 5 more ironkin heads so if anyone wants to sell/trade just give me a shout.
When the next wave comes you can have any ironkin heads I get.
The land fortress looks better and better the more I see.
The land train wasn’t some amazing idea or model that should be replicated. It didn’t function very well as a concept at epic scale where there was room for a crazy long model, on the modern 40k table top you would not be able to place one anywhere. It was really a wacky concept model that was a sign of epic getting a bit silly, but then again epic could. But the idea that it should be held in high regard is just nostalgia turned up to 11.
It was a string of superheavies. It's no more ridiculous than the Admech ordinatus models or having 3 baneblades in an army. Rather than having them move separatey, they join together and combine their void shields and energy, enabling them to being a rolling fortress.
There are plenty of people out there willing to make 40k scale Capitol Imperialis models, so I don't see anything innately more ridiculous than that.
NAVARRO wrote: Nice to see some Votann love and I cannot wait for the kits to be released.
It's been a month or so after the collectors box so it's time for the army to land.
Hekaton looks amazing but not my most wanted kit, first I need all them suits and berserkers.
Still on the hunt for 5 more ironkin heads so if anyone wants to sell/trade just give me a shout.
When the next wave comes you can have any ironkin heads I get.
The land fortress looks better and better the more I see.
The land train wasn’t some amazing idea or model that should be replicated. It didn’t function very well as a concept at epic scale where there was room for a crazy long model, on the modern 40k table top you would not be able to place one anywhere. It was really a wacky concept model that was a sign of epic getting a bit silly, but then again epic could. But the idea that it should be held in high regard is just nostalgia turned up to 11.
It was a string of superheavies. It's no more ridiculous than the Admech ordinatus models or having 3 baneblades in an army. Rather than having them move separatey, they join together and combine their void shields and energy, enabling them to being a rolling fortress.
There are plenty of people out there willing to make 40k scale Capitol Imperialis models, so I don't see anything innately more ridiculous than that.
The ordinatus models were totally ridiculous, three baneblades was a tank company and they didn’t all tow each other in a really long line. It’s a model that has become iconic, but was an awkward model that wasn’t very good and barely used with very iffy rules. They struggled to make it work then let alone now in a bigger scale.
How often do people use their capitol imperialis models that they make, can they be deployed on any of the current 40k size battlefields?!??
What people are wanting here is a model that is likely to be minimum 18” end to end more likely around 24” long, for use in every day games. It just doesn’t make sense. Anyway we are arguing hypotheticals as it isn’t happening, I’m sure they discussed it and decided against it.
Andykp wrote: The land train wasn’t some amazing idea or model that should be replicated. It didn’t function very well as a concept at epic scale where there was room for a crazy long model, on the modern 40k table top you would not be able to place one anywhere. It was really a wacky concept model that was a sign of epic getting a bit silly, but then again epic could. But the idea that it should be held in high regard is just nostalgia turned up to 11.
Sorry but
Maybe that is just your opinion, but this image says its wrong
Never, in the history of Dakka, has a comment been made that I disagree more strongly with xD
I don't think there was any concern about producing an overly large or impractical miniature, otherwise the likes of Super Heavies, Knights etc wouldn't have been produced in the first place.
And I think most grognards recognise the Land Train as the jewel in the crown of the Epic Squat range!
Pacific wrote: Never, in the history of Dakka, has a comment been made that I disagree more strongly with xD
I don't think there was any concern about producing an overly large or impractical miniature, otherwise the likes of Super Heavies, Knights etc wouldn't have been produced in the first place.
And I think most grognards recognise the Land Train as the jewel in the crown of the Epic Squat range!
And what a range it was!! Can you imagine the rules arguments if they just made a 3 foot long land train and let it loose on the community! Ervery time the squats went to war a land train was squeezed into deployment zones at awkward angles. and the 1000x120mm oval base for it!
They could do the land train as seperate parts, magnetic locks. Each segment on its own base with rules stating it must stay in base contact with the one before it in line at the end of a turn, or it becomes move Zero until you reattach it.
Could be a interesting style that is sorta unique vehicle unit. And they could add extra carriages.
Also rule for broadside weapons that buff them, so it looks like they turning it in the deployment zone if it’s too long lol.
Pacific wrote: Never, in the history of Dakka, has a comment been made that I disagree more strongly with xD
I don't think there was any concern about producing an overly large or impractical miniature, otherwise the likes of Super Heavies, Knights etc wouldn't have been produced in the first place.
And I think most grognards recognise the Land Train as the jewel in the crown of the Epic Squat range!
And what a range it was!! Can you imagine the rules arguments if they just made a 3 foot long land train and let it loose on the community! Ervery time the squats went to war a land train was squeezed into deployment zones at awkward angles. and the 1000x120mm oval base for it!
Of course you can go for visual look without going for so big...But yeah let's just pretend such an option doesn't exist. As a result we got generic alien models pretending to be squats for sake of marketing.
It's completely speculative, but imagine if GW dug out Apocalypse for 10th ed. They'd release it in the summer of '25 that doesn't see a new edition of 40k or AoS as the big summer release. We get the first codex and model release for Squats now. We have every reason to believe we'll get a 10th ed codex and second wave of models early in the edition, say fifteen months from now. Then another fifteen months for an Apocalypse release with the Land Train as one of its main attractions. That would mean steady model support for the new army over the next three years and give the Land Train a place where it can at least reasonably exist.
It's only an outlandish thought if you try to squeeze such a model on a 9th ed board. It's a lot more viable if you have a dedicated format for it. It's just a question of whether GW believes that the investment is viable for a model that won't easily fit into regular games. The sculpt and kit are without a doubt doable, just like a plastic Thunderhawk. The only thing holding it back is the financial side, which I'll grant you makes a Land Train unlikely if they don't even have the confidence that they could sell Thunderhawks to enough Marine players.
Geifer wrote: It's completely speculative, but imagine if GW dug out Apocalypse for 10th ed. They'd release it in the summer of '25 that doesn't see a new edition of 40k or AoS as the big summer release. We get the first codex and model release for Squats now. We have every reason to believe we'll get a 10th ed codex and second wave of models early in the edition, say fifteen months from now. Then another fifteen months for an Apocalypse release with the Land Train as one of its main attractions. That would mean steady model support for the new army over the next three years and give the Land Train a place where it can at least reasonably exist.
It's only an outlandish thought if you try to squeeze such a model on a 9th ed board. It's a lot more viable if you have a dedicated format for it. It's just a question of whether GW believes that the investment is viable for a model that won't easily fit into regular games. The sculpt and kit are without a doubt doable, just like a plastic Thunderhawk. The only thing holding it back is the financial side, which I'll grant you makes a Land Train unlikely if they don't even have the confidence that they could sell Thunderhawks to enough Marine players.
That could work, but agree the financials would be iffy and it would cost a fortune!
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Hellebore wrote: They made a Manta for 40k, so I think something like a land train is entirely feasible.
Pacific wrote: Never, in the history of Dakka, has a comment been made that I disagree more strongly with xD
I don't think there was any concern about producing an overly large or impractical miniature, otherwise the likes of Super Heavies, Knights etc wouldn't have been produced in the first place.
And I think most grognards recognise the Land Train as the jewel in the crown of the Epic Squat range!
And what a range it was!! Can you imagine the rules arguments if they just made a 3 foot long land train and let it loose on the community! Ervery time the squats went to war a land train was squeezed into deployment zones at awkward angles. and the 1000x120mm oval base for it!
Of course you can go for visual look without going for so big...But yeah let's just pretend such an option doesn't exist. As a result we got generic alien models pretending to be squats for sake of marketing.
Yeah good idea, let’s make a tiny land train, really short carriages so it fits in the board. Don’t be silly.
And no, what we got were a modern fresh take on an old range that are squats, but for the 21st century. And they a freaking great models, love the ones I have already and this land fortress looks amazing. If you really want a land train get that necromunda truck and few trailers. Go make one.
NAVARRO wrote: Nice to see some Votann love and I cannot wait for the kits to be released.
It's been a month or so after the collectors box so it's time for the army to land.
Hekaton looks amazing but not my most wanted kit, first I need all them suits and berserkers.
Still on the hunt for 5 more ironkin heads so if anyone wants to sell/trade just give me a shout.
When the next wave comes you can have any ironkin heads I get.
The land fortress looks better and better the more I see.
The land train wasn’t some amazing idea or model that should be replicated. It didn’t function very well as a concept at epic scale where there was room for a crazy long model, on the modern 40k table top you would not be able to place one anywhere. It was really a wacky concept model that was a sign of epic getting a bit silly, but then again epic could. But the idea that it should be held in high regard is just nostalgia turned up to 11.
Cheers thanks!
Regarding the train I have to agree it seems like an extra funny thing to be added later on to some kind of Armageddon expansion. Not what you would likely see on a release of a new army which has just one core entry. Its like building a house from the ceiling.
We need more useful basic entries to build the armies from, not a Train that would fill half a table and probably be a huge point sink.
That picture is a Colossus. I don't think that (or the Cyclops, or the land train) would fit the LoV aesthetic, they'd be anachronisms meant only to appeal to nostalgia. Much better to just move on. /edit - maybe it is a land train, or some sort of Colossus / LT mashup idk.
JWBS wrote: That picture is a Colossus. I don't think that (or the Cyclops, or the land train) would fit the LoV aesthetic, they'd be anachronisms meant only to appeal to nostalgia. Much better to just move on. /edit - maybe it is a land train, or some sort of Colossus / LT mashup idk.
It's the Land Train in that artwork, the Colossus was tall and boxy whereas thas has the curved front of the Land Train. The Codex mentions that the Leagues use the Colossus, or at least vehicles of that type. If the Colossus still works with how they are now, I don't see why some sort of update of the Land Train wouldn't.
Also, the Leagues aesthetic still includes the old Squats style in some capacity, too. There's artwork if them in the codex and i'd presume it's their mercenary gear, based on Grendl Grendlsen.
I'm, fine with a mix of different vehicles as the "Land Train". In fact, this is an instance where GW did good.
I'm even good with giving them those Primarus hover tanks, and adding in a couple of outrider hover trikes.
I'm sitting on a team from Necromunda, and hoping that the new guys are of the same scale. The figures themselves have some good options, and I hope we can get some of those robotic ones to add in alongside the mining crew I have right now.
Side by side with the older figures, they don't work, and you wouldn't expect the older "Land Train" angle to fit in with these scifi streamlined and cleaner look. I could understand a little bit of a dwarven angle on some sort of big assed golden idol head hovering apparatus, but I'm reaching here, as to the look of the ancestor program. Other then that, the way in which GW has slipped in subtle reference here and there is perfect.
Better to look on them now as a brand new army, and start them fresh.
It's difficult to assess what the other vehicles will be. I'd expect some artillery pieces at the very least. I doubt we will see a super heavy for some time. I don't think the land train is a good thing, but the Colossus would be funny. Or at least something equivalent.
The smart thing to do would be to add some sappers or pioneers on foot to add more to the Hernkyn side. That would be a good way of giving more of a clear nod towards the older design if they wanted to go down that route. Which is debatable.
Grot 6 wrote: I'm, fine with a mix of different vehicles as the "Land Train". In fact, this is an instance where GW did good.
I'm even good with giving them those Primarus hover tanks, and adding in a couple of outrider hover trikes.
I'm sitting on a team from Necromunda, and hoping that the new guys are of the same scale. The figures themselves have some good options, and I hope we can get some of those robotic ones to add in alongside the mining crew I have right now.
Side by side with the older figures, they don't work, and you wouldn't expect the older "Land Train" angle to fit in with these scifi streamlined and cleaner look. I could understand a little bit of a dwarven angle on some sort of big assed golden idol head hovering apparatus, but I'm reaching here, as to the look of the ancestor program. Other then that, the way in which GW has slipped in subtle reference here and there is perfect.
Better to look on them now as a brand new army, and start them fresh.
Exactly!
As for necromunda prospectors and Votann here's pictures from the web. Scale is ok.
It's only an outlandish thought if you try to squeeze such a model on a 9th ed board. It's a lot more viable if you have a dedicated format for it.
The 9th ed board sizes are specifically stated as being the minimum recommend sizes. You do know what minimum means, right?
Sure, but you're focusing on the wrong word. GW's recommendation has a lot of weight with many players as one of the things that appeals about 40k is the ease of finding opponents that are on the same page as you without the need to negotiate game formats and optional rules. It's also something reinforced by the many boxes that include cardboard boards of fitting size to get to that standard.
As long as there are enough older players around, at least you'll still get the old 6'x4' as a competing standard, but even that will wane in time if GW sticks to the latest, box friendly board size long enough.
GW says you can use any size you want, but gives you some concrete numbers for the minimum recommendation. Those will widely get adopted because they offer a standard where any size you come up with yourself does not. That's just the way it works.
GW says you can use any size you want, but gives you some concrete numbers for the minimum recommendation. Those will widely get adopted because they offer a standard where any size you come up with yourself does not. That's just the way it works.
Also, there are practical reasons to not get too big of a table. I've used larger from time to time, and 8x6 is fine in my experience. But getting much larger than that risks having areas in the center of the table that you can't reach.
JWBS wrote: That picture is a Colossus. I don't think that (or the Cyclops, or the land train) would fit the LoV aesthetic, they'd be anachronisms meant only to appeal to nostalgia. Much better to just move on. /edit - maybe it is a land train, or some sort of Colossus / LT mashup idk.
You could argue that the entire force release is designed to appeal to nostalgia though. Admittedly I think they've done a good job of modernising some of it, but at heart these are still 'space dwarves' and appeal in the same way. They've pushed me into buying some 40k minis for probably the first time in 10 years or more, and the new releases line up almost perfectly with the 2nd edition force chart, which a fellow grognard and I are using for them.
JWBS wrote: That picture is a Colossus. I don't think that (or the Cyclops, or the land train) would fit the LoV aesthetic, they'd be anachronisms meant only to appeal to nostalgia. Much better to just move on. /edit - maybe it is a land train, or some sort of Colossus / LT mashup idk.
You could argue that the entire force release is designed to appeal to nostalgia though. Admittedly I think they've done a good job of modernising some of it, but at heart these are still 'space dwarves' and appeal in the same way. They've pushed me into buying some 40k minis for probably the first time in 10 years or more, and the new releases line up almost perfectly with the 2nd edition force chart, which a fellow grognard and I are using for them.
To some extent yes, depends where you are as a collector.
If you in the past collected them, then yes that nostalgia is your touchpoint.
Personally I never liked much the old look, so never got into them. The touchpoint for me is not the nostalgia but the new model design.
For new collectors unaware of Squats obviously theres no nostalgia.
So I would not say the entire force was designed to appeal to nostalgia. I think nostalgia was added in to extend GW target demographic with this new release. But Votann are their own thing.
This is one of the many areas where scale creep is bad. You *might* be able to get an old school land train on the table at 28mm with some work and fiddling, but not at the current size.
The Cargo Ridgehauler from Necromunda could be a testbed for a Land Train as far as pricing and interest in multi-kit vehicles go.
And it would not be too difficult to make a trailer kit that was compatible with the Hekaton by adding a part that replaced the rear ramp with a tunnel or hitch assembly to connect it to the trailer.
Tastyfish wrote: I could see trailors for the land fortress adding more guns or transport capacity in a FW/future release.
I really can't believe there's no land train concept floating about in the Votann design bible.
Whilst I’d need to dig out my copy of Ork & Squat Warlords, and I know lone carriages could still fight if not move? I could see detachable carriages in 40K. Sort of deployable bastion type things.
Maybe one which is just a portable Void Shield Generator?
JWBS wrote: That picture is a Colossus. I don't think that (or the Cyclops, or the land train) would fit the LoV aesthetic, they'd be anachronisms meant only to appeal to nostalgia. Much better to just move on. /edit - maybe it is a land train, or some sort of Colossus / LT mashup idk.
You could argue that the entire force release is designed to appeal to nostalgia though. Admittedly I think they've done a good job of modernising some of it, but at heart these are still 'space dwarves' and appeal in the same way. They've pushed me into buying some 40k minis for probably the first time in 10 years or more, and the new releases line up almost perfectly with the 2nd edition force chart, which a fellow grognard and I are using for them.
I'd argue the Necromunda Squats are designed to appeal to nostalgia, but not the Votann. There's nothing really Squat about them except they're dwarves in space and a few names are a reference to the old line. Even the lore has largely been retconned.
They seem more like an appeal to the people who might have been looking into third party space dwarves now quite a few companies were appealing to that niche and GW decided they might as well consolidate those sales under them too.
Honestly it doesn't surprise me too much. We know GW is behind on releases and they clearly don't want to be. Chances are there's a lot of mess with international postage behind the scenes at GW so they might well have to bulk up on releases like this because other things have built up also needing releases and they just don't have the time to spread it out over two or three weeks.
Well they have to get them all out before Christmas, and Arks of Omen which has to have multiple releases before 10th edition in summer 2023. GW are running out of release slots.
Yeah, the imminent new edition likely puts pressure on the remaining 9th ed releases. I wouldn't even worry about any concerns about expiration date, but even for GW it's a bit much to release a 9th ed book in 10th ed, so they just have to get stuff out there as quickly as they can.
I don't mind one bit. It's good to finally have the models out for those who want them.
Geifer wrote: Yeah, the imminent new edition likely puts pressure on the remaining 9th ed releases. I wouldn't even worry about any concerns about expiration date, but even for GW it's a bit much to release a 9th ed book in 10th ed, so they just have to get stuff out there as quickly as they can.
I don't mind one bit. It's good to finally have the models out for those who want them.
But they're quite happy to release a codex within 6-8 months of it being (partly) invalidated with a new edition.
The models are generally pretty good, I do like the big beefy armoured models. I was thinking of getting the champion, but 24 quid for a single plastic toy soldier is pushing it for me. The only models I don't like are the lego wheeled kids' toys looking vehicles. Along with these wierd things...
Why do they have just one leg? I don't get it.
The Land Fortress is cheaper than I thought.
I expected closer to £80, so maybe its smaller than I thought?
Its the equivalent of a Land Raider so it looks about right but yes I was expecting a higher price.
Generally everything else looks reasonable although the beserks are a bit pricey. Going to start with a squad of Hearthguard and a Sagitaur and go from there.
Along with these wierd things...
Why do they have just one leg? I don't get it.
They don't have any legs? They are flying, thats just some scrap so they are connected to the base since GW doesn't like to use flying stands anymore
Ah... I see it now, more so in the other ones. That's a lousy design imo. If I had these, I'd be chopping the crap off and using a flying stand I think.
I guess it's cheaper to mould a bit extra on the sprue than provide a seperate flying stand for GW. I suppose the bean counters have figured a way to get some extra pennies to the share holders doing this.
To be fair, the current flying stands are absolutely awful. Models are guaranteed to break off if you look at them funny. I'd much rather they did this. A different paintjob to better distinguish the robot from the bit of junk supporting it would help.
To anyone that doesn't like either flying stands or tactical rocks I'd suggest using brass rod instead. You can very easily just disconnect the guy shown here from the rock and use a brass pin of whatever length you like to attach him to a base, it is imo the best looking solution.
Yes I usually end up using steel/brass rod instead. Plus the bits of scenery gives it a bit more of a scenic base and if you don't like it/it doesn't fit your theme just snip it off. Its just plastic. Not like hacking through metal back in the day.
Prices not that bad. I was worried about Hekaton. Characters a bit overpriced but they come with extra bots...
Im still amazed to see this all released in just one huge release. I dont remember GW doing that before.
I REALLY hoped they were going to break this up into two waves of releases... I don't want to drop like $1k on a single day, but think I might, considering I have been dreaming of a Squat return for more than fifteen years.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I REALLY hoped they were going to break this up into two waves of releases... I don't want to drop like $1k on a single day, but think I might, considering I have been dreaming of a Squat return for more than fifteen years.
The alternative is to just have the barest level of restraint and not buy multiples of everything at once. They're not going anywhere.
warboss wrote: I'm most curious to see the full 360 images of some of the new squats.
I'm looking forward to seeing some of the sprues - mostly for the head variants.
Really really looking forward to seeing how the community builds and paints the full range - what I've seen so far with just the hearthkin, bikes and characters has been fantastic.
The Land Fortress is cheaper than I thought.
I expected closer to £80, so maybe its smaller than I thought?
Its the equivalent of a Land Raider so it looks about right but yes I was expecting a higher price.
Generally everything else looks reasonable although the beserks are a bit pricey. Going to start with a squad of Hearthguard and a Sagitaur and go from there.
Don't think they are that big. I'd expect the Sagitaur to have the footprint of a Genestealer Cults Ridgerunner but a bit taller, and the Land Fortress to have a footprint of a Rockgrinder, but again a bit taller.
Lord Damocles wrote: Well they have to get them all out before Christmas, and Arks of Omen which has to have multiple releases before 10th edition in summer 2023. GW are running out of release slots.
Let's see if the community learned anything for Psychic Awakening. I'd bet a C-note that these Arks of Omen books will be A) Very poor with rules and fluff. B) Obsolete within six months.
Lord Damocles wrote: Well they have to get them all out before Christmas, and Arks of Omen which has to have multiple releases before 10th edition in summer 2023. GW are running out of release slots.
Let's see if the community learned anything for Psychic Awakening. I'd bet a C-note that these Arks of Omen books will be A) Very poor with rules and fluff. B) Obsolete within six months.
GW has said that the books will not contain rules for models, but more terrain/setting rules and scenarios, so with some mild use across editions, at least.
Pacific wrote: So is this now everything that has or is going to be released for the Votann in the short/medium term?
Olthannon wrote: I am the complete opposite. I'd much rather they used scenery as a stand than those crappy translucent bits of plastic.
Forgive me but aren't you a massive BFG fan?
Yep, this is our lot for now. I'm super interested to see what the next stuff will be. I do hope for some lighter armed Pioneers on foot, like sappers or engineers, that have perhaps a stronger touch of the old Squats to them. And hopefully a flyer too.
And yes! I am a big BFG fan but I'm more forgiving with the whole gigantic void of space. It would be a lot harder to do scenery under every single ship Plus most people painted their flying stands black, which y'know made sense for space.
Take for instance the Votann Pioneer bikes, they did a nice job of making the suggestion of hovering but there's no flying stand. It's just a plastic plug on a rock for the base. I've seen some excellent conversions over the years of people doing Eldar jetbike bases with scenic bases and the like. Obviously from GW's perspective, a translucent stand is easy to supply. But where possible, I much prefer the scenery and a realistic approach to make the model appear to be flying.
Do like the idea of that diorama, but at the same time some of it doesn't seem overly interesting with what's going on. It's all very disjointed with mostly just being random votann miniatures placed randomly in ways where they aren't really doing anything more than their standard miniatures. Can't see any organized searching, no squads sweeping through, no carrying equipment or salvage etc. Just individual Kin placed arbitrarily in a way that feels like they aren't really interacting with the diorama.
Yeah I saw this on the Facebook groups last week I think, the unofficial shots are more interesting. It nice seeing a force of Kin represented- the gathering of vehicles, the standing pioneers and the CoGs cutting into the wreck are all cool. Not especially exciting though - more of a battle scene would have been better. then again maybe they ae leaving space to add new models in when the next wave arrives in the future.
Gotta be honest, with those insane prices I'm almost willing to do 40k shopping in the US for Aussies and mail it to you at cost. It's got to be cheaper that way.
In the UK, extra tax is paid for products that contain dice, as they count as games, so they cost much more than they would if the dice were omitted.
This is not correct. VAT is charged at 20% on games, the same as pretty much all other products. VAT would be charged at 20% on a box containing miniatures, cards and a board, even without dice. Certain printed products (like books) have 0% VAT, which is why gamebooks typically don't come with dice (they would then be charged 20% VAT) but there's nothing special about dice or games in this regard. There's no extra tax for dice, so this isn't relevant to the UK price, let alone the Australian one.
In the UK, extra tax is paid for products that contain dice, as they count as games, so they cost much more than they would if the dice were omitted.
This is not correct. VAT is charged at 20% on games, the same as pretty much all other products. VAT would be charged at 20% on a box containing miniatures, cards and a board, even without dice. Certain printed products (like books) have 0% VAT, which is why gamebooks typically don't come with dice (they would then be charged 20% VAT) but there's nothing special about dice or games in this regard. There's no extra tax for dice, so this isn't relevant to the UK price, let alone the Australian one.
EDIT: Removed an extra 'which'.
UK VAT wouldn't apply if the products are going overseas anyway, VAT or equivalent (GST in Oz) would apply at the other end (depending on registration and threshold for European countries).
NAVARRO wrote: Theres probably some extra cost associated to ship things there, which GW is not willing to take the hit themselves on clients behalf?
The ship carrying the cheapest 65 pound box took the shortest route, the ship carrying the middling 65 pound box had to take a long detour, and the ship carrying the expensive 65 pound box was harassed by u-boats and Somali pirates on the way to Australia? Sounds legit.
NAVARRO wrote: Theres probably some extra cost associated to ship things there, which GW is not willing to take the hit themselves on clients behalf?
The ship carrying the cheapest 65 pound box took the shortest route, the ship carrying the middling 65 pound box had to take a long detour, and the ship carrying the expensive 65 pound box was harassed by u-boats and Somali pirates on the way to Australia? Sounds legit.
The 65 pound box volume probably triggers something shipping wise maybe. Again assuming its either something custom's shipping related. Failing that Im not sure what would be the reasonable reason to explain prices differences?
NAVARRO wrote: Theres probably some extra cost associated to ship things there, which GW is not willing to take the hit themselves on clients behalf?
The ship carrying the cheapest 65 pound box took the shortest route, the ship carrying the middling 65 pound box had to take a long detour, and the ship carrying the expensive 65 pound box was harassed by u-boats and Somali pirates on the way to Australia? Sounds legit.
The 65 pound box volume probably triggers something shipping wise maybe. Again assuming its either something custom's shipping related. Failing that Im not sure what would be the reasonable reason to explain prices differences?
Likely the relative weight and box dimensions. Given shipping containers are fixed volume transports, if you’ve two items, one twice the size of the other, it’s going to affect how many of each you can ship at anyone time.
I ask because it appears that Oz got Tzcrewed again:
Land Raider Crusader = £65/AUD$132
Hekaton Land Fortress = £65/AUD$180
So an extra AUD$48 because... ?
Because someone needs to pay for Brexit.
At a certain point, it becomes cheaper to take a trip to the UK and pay in GBP than pay the crazy conversion rates.
You know Australia isn’t in Europe right? What the hell does does Brexit have to do with it???
Maybe someone with GW shares could ask them why the prices are so distorted in Australia, I imagine it’s shipping and warehousing costs but it is odd how skewed they are.
They must know what they are doing, hence the RoW sales ban for traders that came in 10(?) or so years ago.
That was fun living in a country with no GW presence I can tell you. But on the upside, it did push me into leaving the GW bubble and trying other games, which I otherwise might not have.
I ask because it appears that Oz got Tzcrewed again:
Land Raider Crusader = £65/AUD$132
Hekaton Land Fortress = £65/AUD$180
So an extra AUD$48 because... ?
Because someone needs to pay for Brexit.
At a certain point, it becomes cheaper to take a trip to the UK and pay in GBP than pay the crazy conversion rates.
You know Australia isn’t in Europe right? What the hell does does Brexit have to do with it???
Maybe someone with GW shares could ask them why the prices are so distorted in Australia, I imagine it’s shipping and warehousing costs but it is odd how skewed they are.
There was rumers a few months back that sales in aus have dropped significantly this year and GW was readjusting prices in the future.
I actually didn’t think anything of them until reading here, and rumers out of aus never pick up enough to get good info it seems.
There was rumers a few months back that sales in aus have dropped significantly this year and GW was readjusting prices in the future.
I actually didn’t think anything of them until reading here, and rumers out of aus never pick up enough to get good info it seems.
And we know how GW deal with that.
If they sell less and make less profit, the few items they do sell need to make the same amount of profit, so, increase the price so the few whales still buying keep the profit levels the same.
Overread wrote: One day I want to actually see some of these mythical Whales people talk about
I think we are all sardines here, and we are the ones buying
Got some Votann today to add to my army box. Lots to build before I buy the vehicles and the couple HQ left.
Aiming to have one of everything and 3 infantry blocks. That should be quite a nice diverse set of kits to play with.
The more I look at the kits the more I like them and the sprues revealed are packed with goodies.
I ask because it appears that Oz got Tzcrewed again:
Land Raider Crusader = £65/AUD$132
Hekaton Land Fortress = £65/AUD$180
So an extra AUD$48 because... ?
Because someone needs to pay for Brexit.
At a certain point, it becomes cheaper to take a trip to the UK and pay in GBP than pay the crazy conversion rates.
Australia was paying more way before brexit. That has nothing do with it.
It might have something do with Australia being on the other side of the world though.
Overread wrote: One day I want to actually see some of these mythical Whales people talk about
I think we are all sardines here, and we are the ones buying
Got some Votann today to add to my army box. Lots to build before I buy the vehicles and the couple HQ left.
Aiming to have one of everything and 3 infantry blocks. That should be quite a nice diverse set of kits to play with.
The more I look at the kits the more I like them and the sprues revealed are packed with goodies.
Yeah really like the look of everything - I've ordered a few kits to fill out the army set. I'll probably get more around Christmas.
Inflation and logistics strike again! Unless I misread the article, there are only 16 dice in the LoV set rather than the normal 20 for the same price as previous sets. Ouch!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It might have something do with Australia being on the other side of the world though.
It doesn't. Forge World will manufacture two of the same items, sell one to someone in the UK for one price, and one to someone in Oz for a different price (anywhere from 20%-40% more), and then you add shipping.
Nope. It came about when FW started doing regional pricing. They tried to talk it up as being a way of avoiding "expensive currency conversion fees". I'll pay a few bucks conversion fee over a 40% price increase.
And this affects everyone, BTW, not just Oz. If you buy FW and live in the US, or Canadia, or Japan or Brazil, you pay more for the same items as someone from the UK before shipping costs are added.
It's why I've not bought a single thing from FW since that change.
Everyone here has at some point been accused of something by you when they have the temerity to disagree with what you're saying. No one cares anymore.
Land Fortress seems to be about Land Raider Proteus sized with a turret on top.
Your pictures are excellent as always.
It's weird though, WintersSEO has a battle report up on his YT channel right now where he takes on the NotSquats with his Marines. Whomever is fielding the Votann was sent one of every box, so with some exceptions has a single Land Fortress in the list, and it looks huge compared to everything else. But in your pics it doesn't, so maybe it's just a trick of the eye when you have one in a sea of (actually smaller) Hyrthkyn. Either way, it's an odd looking thing, and I'm surprised the Necromunda cargo carrier is actually bigger. I should build mine.
JWBS wrote: Everyone here has at some point been accused of something by you when they have the temerity to disagree with what you're saying. No one cares anymore.
Thank you for attempting to make me a better person. I will endeavour to work harder at not engaging with those I have on my ignore list.
JWBS wrote: Everyone here has at some point been accused of something by you when they have the temerity to disagree with what you're saying. No one cares anymore.
Thank you for attempting to make me a better person. I will endeavour to work harder at not engaging with those I have on my ignore list.
Very hurt to learn that I'm on your ignore list yet also greatly relieved that this response wasn't entirely ad hominem you're a slightly better person already and you are of course welcome for the help.
That army picture is nice to see in so far as it confirms that the army isn't for me. The look isn't inspiring.
I waited to form my final opinion until the 360 pictures on the online store were released, and I don't find a lot of it appealing. I'm still game for stealing a moon buggy for my Genestealer Cult and the Terminator equivalents might be cool to convert and/or paint, but as an army the new Squats do nothing for me. Maybe that changes when they get another wave of models with their next codex.
NAVARRO wrote: Yeah the size seems to be deceiving depending on what you compare it with.
I found a picture online of one of everything and the Hekaton seems the perfect size for the Votann.
Yeah that and Garfy's pictures it seems like its a good scale across the range. The more I see the vehicles the more I love them.
Exact opposite for me, they just don't feel like they fit the setting to me.
Thats the spice of life we all like different things.
Im really curious to see what they bring in for next edition.
A flyer like the artwork we have seen is probably a strong candidate... we need another troop slot ( maybe ironkin only) and what I really would love to have is a big dread sized suit like the FW one with options.
NAVARRO wrote: Yeah the size seems to be deceiving depending on what you compare it with.
I found a picture online of one of everything and the Hekaton seems the perfect size for the Votann.
Yeah that and Garfy's pictures it seems like its a good scale across the range. The more I see the vehicles the more I love them.
Exact opposite for me, they just don't feel like they fit the setting to me.
Thats the spice of life we all like different things.
Im really curious to see what they bring in for next edition.
A flyer like the artwork we have seen is probably a strong candidate... we need another troop slot ( maybe ironkin only) and what I really would love to have is a big dread sized suit like the FW one with options.
The current Hearthkyn box all ready has options for pistol/CCW in them, however it's not an option in the rules. I'd like to see that added. I agree with you on the second troops slot and either a Dreadnought or something like the Dreadknigh/Invictus Warsuit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been modeling up some 3rd party miniatures that have a bit more"dwarf" feel to them. The transports are almost exactly Rhino length, width, and height, so it looks like they won't be out of place for a Sagitaur.
NAVARRO wrote: Yeah the size seems to be deceiving depending on what you compare it with.
I found a picture online of one of everything and the Hekaton seems the perfect size for the Votann.
Yeah that and Garfy's pictures it seems like its a good scale across the range. The more I see the vehicles the more I love them.
Exact opposite for me, they just don't feel like they fit the setting to me.
What about them doesn't fit the setting? They're big bulky heavily armoured exploration/utility vehicles.
Yeah in a war game. Heavily armed exploration vehicles doesn't fit the bill for me. Mantic's Forgefather vehicles are closer at least.
They're designed and for use in some of the most dangerous and harsh environments in the galaxy. They're multi-purpose vehicles that are armed and armoured to such a degree that they can withstand battlefield conditions just as well as their daily work, because there's a lot of overlap in the hazards faced. The Leagues whole theming is militarized pioneer/explorer/industrial Space Dwarfs.
You said they don't look like they fit the setting though, I don't see how when there is no singular theme/style for 40k?
cole1114 wrote: Mantic's Forgefather vehicles are closer at least.
That's what I'm using. Mantic tanks using a space marine cupula and twin heavy bolters from the Dark Angel land speeder and a land speeder missile pod.
Hopefully we do get some proper military vehicles for the Leagues eventually, while I do like the Hekaton it's a bit hard to think of it as equivalent to a tank.
I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.
Andykp wrote: I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.
Well. They suit better than votann's for those who want dwarves.
Votann is fine generic alien. Dwarf? Much less so.
On topic of a second Troops choice, I'd like to see pioneers on foot (probably with pump action revolver bolt shotguns if close combat loadout can be handled with the existing Troops kit). No idea if that makes sense in the rules, but I think it would add something fun visually.
Andykp wrote: I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.
I'm just quoting this because I'd like to say that the underlined part perfectly describes my first Space Marines and that never stopped me from spending way too much money on Marines over the years. To each their own indeed.
Andykp wrote: I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.
Well. They suit better than votann's for those who want dwarves.
Votann is fine generic alien. Dwarf? Much less so.
Well its a personal thing - the Votann look perfect to me as a dwarf race- really love their aesthetics. I don't like the mantic stuff at all but if they work for you go for it. Its good that there are plenty of alt options out there for different folks tastes. I'm glad that GW did their won thing with them, they look iconic to me already, but thats just my taste. They seem to have gone done well with the wider community too which is good to see.
I would like to read more lore for them- hoping for a novel and /or a large presence in one of the upcoming campaign books [which is possible as the only war zone mentioned in the codex has the Kin battling Chaos forces].
Andykp wrote: I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.
Well. They suit better than votann's for those who want dwarves.
Votann is fine generic alien. Dwarf? Much less so.
Well its a personal thing - the Votann look perfect to me as a dwarf race- really love their aesthetics. I don't like the mantic stuff at all but if they work for you go for it. Its good that there are plenty of alt options out there for different folks tastes. I'm glad that GW did their won thing with them, they look iconic to me already, but thats just my taste. They seem to have gone done well with the wider community too which is good to see.
I would like to read more lore for them- hoping for a novel and /or a large presence in one of the upcoming campaign books [which is possible as the only war zone mentioned in the codex has the Kin battling Chaos forces].
GW did well with the design since I lost count of how many posts I have seen on social media saying " been away for 30 years but Votann got me back into being exited and collecting 40k again" The design is tapping into old and new fans at the same time. Not much more you could ask for in therms of design.
Votaan are 100% dwarf in space IMO. Mantic is unfortunately less quality on all fronts. Theres several futuristic dwarfs from other companies that I would rather be more interested in getting before looking at mantic.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Hopefully we do get some proper military vehicles for the Leagues eventually, while I do like the Hekaton it's a bit hard to think of it as equivalent to a tank.
40k “tanks” are all manner of things, a big armoured wheel vehicle isn’t too untank like really.
Starcraft Humans looking more like Dwarfs (or Aliens) than Space Dwarves?
I cannot follow that but to each their own
for the Votaan, my main problem is the same as with most recent GW lines, there are nice individual elements, but the overall theme does not fit
like the army is supposed to be an exploration/mining gang that use the same stuff for combat, therefore a non military style, yet their armour and equipment is dedicated to war (the exploration vehicle has way too much guns and not enough exploration equipment to be anything else than a Battle Tank) with a highly technological advanced humans that need to improvise vehicles for war
I think the last line I liked as a whole was the Dark Eldar re-design
Geifer wrote: On topic of a second Troops choice, I'd like to see pioneers on foot (probably with pump action revolver bolt shotguns if close combat loadout can be handled with the existing Troops kit). No idea if that makes sense in the rules, but I think it would add something fun visually.
Andykp wrote: I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.
I'm just quoting this because I'd like to say that the underlined part perfectly describes my first Space Marines and that never stopped me from spending way too much money on Marines over the years. To each their own indeed.
30 years ago! RTB01 wouldn’t make a dent in the market if someone released something of that poor quality now. GW have even redone the old spacemarine stuff and I love it, but it’s so much better than the old stuff.
Not looked at mantic stuff for a while, let alone bought any, but their thing was always that they were cheaper then GW, but they never came close quality wise.
Andykp wrote: I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.
Well. They suit better than votann's for those who want dwarves.
Votann is fine generic alien. Dwarf? Much less so.
Votann-
Short ✔️
Beards ✔️
Tools ✔️
That’s the whole “dwarf” checklist there.
Forge fathers-
Weird helmets, weird leg proportions making them too heavy, piss poor quality. Yes they are dwarfy but they are hideous (IMO). Only thing worse is their version of ORKS. They are FUGLY.
yeah, I you can play the old Space Wolves as they are as new Votann and no one should have any problem with it
there are Tools, Beards and the models are the same size, just add wheels to your Land Raider and you have a 40k Space Dwarfs Army
yeah, I you can play the old Space Wolves as they are as new Votann and no one should have any problem with it
there are Tools, Beards and the models are the same size, just add wheels to your Land Raider and you have a 40k Space Dwarfs Army
Was going to say they are a bit tall, but they aren’t are they!
Forge fathers-
Weird helmets, weird leg proportions making them too heavy, piss poor quality. Yes they are dwarfy but they are hideous (IMO). Only thing worse is their version of ORKS. They are FUGLY.
Yea real short. Almost space marine height Since when ~6 feet is short?
Gee. Are you 9 feet giant if you consider 6 short?
usernamesareannoying wrote: so if the votann had the beards of the olden days, do you think theyd tuck them in or let them hang out of the armor?
I was initially going to say hang out, but they do wear sealed suits. Unless they have a way of sealing around the beard (most 40k thing ever) I think they'd tuck them in.
Forge fathers-
Weird helmets, weird leg proportions making them too heavy, piss poor quality. Yes they are dwarfy but they are hideous (IMO). Only thing worse is their version of ORKS. They are FUGLY.
Yea real short. Almost space marine height Since when ~6 feet is short?
Gee. Are you 9 feet giant if you consider 6 short?
kodos wrote: as you show in the picture, Votann are the same size as classic/old Marine models, which are said to be 6 feet (as Primaris are taller than Firstborn)
Geifer wrote: On topic of a second Troops choice, I'd like to see pioneers on foot (probably with pump action revolver bolt shotguns if close combat loadout can be handled with the existing Troops kit). No idea if that makes sense in the rules, but I think it would add something fun visually.
Andykp wrote: I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.
I'm just quoting this because I'd like to say that the underlined part perfectly describes my first Space Marines and that never stopped me from spending way too much money on Marines over the years. To each their own indeed.
30 years ago! RTB01 wouldn’t make a dent in the market if someone released something of that poor quality now. GW have even redone the old spacemarine stuff and I love it, but it’s so much better than the old stuff.
Not looked at mantic stuff for a while, let alone bought any, but their thing was always that they were cheaper then GW, but they never came close quality wise.
What was the competition like when Mantic's dwarfs were released? GW and Privateer Press were sure to be there, but anything else of note? For GW those were simpler times compared to their current models, and... I'm not going to say anything about Privateer Press models so as not to be rude. But more importantly who else did space dwarfs at the time? Sure, Mantic doesn't usually have sculpting quality on their side. Zombies are a rare exception to that, even without GW stubbornly refusing to redo their zombies from the 90s until last year. But if they make space dwarfs when no one else does, they get to shape opinions on what a space dwarf is supposed to look like. That's bound to be a pretty strong influence if they can keep it up for ten or more years until they get competition from small studios that make higher quality resin models, or 3D sculpts and GW's attempt of late.
Don't get me wrong, I don't care for Mantic's space dwarfs. I just wouldn't be dismissive of their influence as I know first hand that liking the idea of a model can overrule the actual execution quite easily. I love Terminators. Always have. Always will. But the models have never been remotely human in anatomy, which is something I value very highly in my miniatures and that should make me reject Terminators. Yet here we are.
Geifer wrote: On topic of a second Troops choice, I'd like to see pioneers on foot (probably with pump action revolver bolt shotguns if close combat loadout can be handled with the existing Troops kit). No idea if that makes sense in the rules, but I think it would add something fun visually.
Andykp wrote: I can’t for the life of me see how anyone can like the mantis dwarfs. They are hideous, with weird proportions and and just look cheap and crappy. But each to his own.
I'm just quoting this because I'd like to say that the underlined part perfectly describes my first Space Marines and that never stopped me from spending way too much money on Marines over the years. To each their own indeed.
30 years ago! RTB01 wouldn’t make a dent in the market if someone released something of that poor quality now. GW have even redone the old spacemarine stuff and I love it, but it’s so much better than the old stuff.
Not looked at mantic stuff for a while, let alone bought any, but their thing was always that they were cheaper then GW, but they never came close quality wise.
What was the competition like when Mantic's dwarfs were released? GW and Privateer Press were sure to be there, but anything else of note? For GW those were simpler times compared to their current models, and... I'm not going to say anything about Privateer Press models so as not to be rude. But more importantly who else did space dwarfs at the time? Sure, Mantic doesn't usually have sculpting quality on their side. Zombies are a rare exception to that, even without GW stubbornly refusing to redo their zombies from the 90s until last year. But if they make space dwarfs when no one else does, they get to shape opinions on what a space dwarf is supposed to look like. That's bound to be a pretty strong influence if they can keep it up for ten or more years until they get competition from small studios that make higher quality resin models, or 3D sculpts and GW's attempt of late.
Don't get me wrong, I don't care for Mantic's space dwarfs. I just wouldn't be dismissive of their influence as I know first hand that liking the idea of a model can overrule the actual execution quite easily. I love Terminators. Always have. Always will. But the models have never been remotely human in anatomy, which is something I value very highly in my miniatures and that should make me reject Terminators. Yet here we are.
From the top of my head, from days of old.
Bob Olley range of dwarfs, Hasslefree Grymn and Macrocosm to name some... then PP and only after than I would go for Mantic.
I had some mantic stuff back in the rank and file infantry days of WFB because they were dirt cheap and in big blocks the slightly iffy models were less obvious. You lose that benefit in loose order.
Not saying mantic don’t have their place but it’s a stretch to my tastes to hold them up as a the paragon of space dwarves. All very subjective I know.
At their time there wasn’t any alternative plastic about I don’t think.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kodos wrote: as you show in the picture, Votann are the same size as classic/old Marine models, which are said to be 6 feet (as Primaris are taller than Firstborn)
There is no old marine in there, and they are shorter than the cultists from the same era as old marines, so unless cultists were crazy tall then they must be shorter. See Navarros pic to confirm. They may not be the 4 foot Warhammer community said but they are still represented as shorter than the standard human, therefore, Short ✔️
Remember, those Votann are on 28mm bases, which are thicker (slightly) than the 25mm base the marine is on. If a marine were 6 feet tall, I'd place the Votann at 5'5" tall.
Ya and 5.5 is way to tall for a dwarf that like average human size.
Excuse me I looked it up its 5.9 so your telling me that anyone slightly shorter than average should be called a dwarf?
Boosykes wrote: Ya and 5.5 is way to tall for a dwarf that like average human size.
Excuse me I looked it up its 5.9 so your telling me that anyone slightly shorter than average should be called a dwarf?
At the risk of bringing logic into 40k, you have hit on the core of the size issue. Dwarfism is defined as 4'10" or less. In 28mm scale (measurements from sole to eyeline) that's about 22mm which happens to be the height of a WGA Einherjar space dwarf.
Votaan are 25-26mm. Even if you assume 40k is now 30mm scale, Votaan aren't Dwarves. They're just shorter than average husky people. Might not matter to most folks but it's one more point of data anyway.
I think people have to let go of the concept of 'true' scale at these sizes.
GW are obviously going for qualitative differences rather than quantitative differences, in order to provide models that are equally easy to build and paint.
A 6 foot human at 30mm (so 5mm=1 foot) means a traditional fantasy dwarf is going to be between 20 and 22.5mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is going to 40mm tall and a 10 foot ogryn 50mm tall.
In terms of tabletop presence, 20mm troops are not going to be particularly imposing or easy to work with. Their weapons are either going to look absurdly oversized or be very small and fiddly.
It seems obvious GW are using relative differences - so long as marine>Human>Votann in relative size then it doesn't matter if they are exactly scaled differently.
It seems GW are also scaling heroes a little bigger these days as well in order to get them to stand out from the pack.
If Elves can range from Tolkien to Keebler, there is no reason to assume that there is a single Dwarf archetype that the Votaan must strictly adhere to. Compared to the humans of the setting, they are stocky, sturdy, and industrious. Just because they may be able to ride a roller coaster doesn't mean they aren't True Scotsmen.
Hellebore wrote: I think people have to let go of the concept of 'true' scale at these sizes.
GW are obviously going for qualitative differences rather than quantitative differences, in order to provide models that are equally easy to build and paint.
A 6 foot human at 30mm (so 5mm=1 foot) means a traditional fantasy dwarf is going to be between 20 and 22.5mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is going to 40mm tall and a 10 foot ogryn 50mm tall.
In terms of tabletop presence, 20mm troops are not going to be particularly imposing or easy to work with. Their weapons are either going to look absurdly oversized or be very small and fiddly.
It seems obvious GW are using relative differences - so long as marine>Human>Votann in relative size then it doesn't matter if they are exactly scaled differently.
It seems GW are also scaling heroes a little bigger these days as well in order to get them to stand out from the pack.
This ^^^^^^ 100%
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MajorWesJanson wrote: If Elves can range from Tolkien to Keebler, there is no reason to assume that there is a single Dwarf archetype that the Votaan must strictly adhere to. Compared to the humans of the setting, they are stocky, sturdy, and industrious. Just because they may be able to ride a roller coaster doesn't mean they aren't True Scotsmen.
Hellebore wrote: I think people have to let go of the concept of 'true' scale at these sizes.
GW are obviously going for qualitative differences rather than quantitative differences, in order to provide models that are equally easy to build and paint.
A 6 foot human at 30mm (so 5mm=1 foot) means a traditional fantasy dwarf is going to be between 20 and 22.5mm tall, an 8 foot primaris is going to 40mm tall and a 10 foot ogryn 50mm tall.
In terms of tabletop presence, 20mm troops are not going to be particularly imposing or easy to work with. Their weapons are either going to look absurdly oversized or be very small and fiddly.
It seems obvious GW are using relative differences - so long as marine>Human>Votann in relative size then it doesn't matter if they are exactly scaled differently.
It seems GW are also scaling heroes a little bigger these days as well in order to get them to stand out from the pack.
The thing that I really don't understand, is that this has always been the case. I mean always. At no point has GW done anything at a true scale. And yet every single time something like this happens, people complain about it. The new cadians are exactly the same. Scales have changed with pretty much every release.
kodos wrote: as you show in the picture, Votann are the same size as classic/old Marine models, which are said to be 6 feet (as Primaris are taller than Firstborn)
Yeah...those are also older firstborn. Would be a better comparison to use Deathwatch or at least Space Marine Hero marines
kodos wrote: as you show in the picture, Votann are the same size as classic/old Marine models, which are said to be 6 feet (as Primaris are taller than Firstborn)
Yeah...those are also older firstborn. Would be a better comparison to use Deathwatch or at least Space Marine Hero marines
Plus the Votann model is still a full head shorter than that bow-legged marine- his face would sit at chest height, despite the low stance of the marine. But nothing designed now is scaled to those marine designs, they have been rescaling and changing the proportions on pretty much all the recent releases since Primaris. Jes is probably using the redesign of core troops as a chance to fix the scale of the different ranges.
The Votann feel to me very "dwarf" - they are dwarf in the same way as Eldar are elves. Honestly I haven't enjoyed anything GW has released in the last few years, these have really fired me up again.
Eilif wrote: Votaan are 25-26mm. Even if you assume 40k is now 30mm scale, Votaan aren't Dwarves. They're just shorter than average husky people.
I looked at the models. They're not dwarfs, but they're certainly not short anthropomorphic doggos either.
...
I had to.
...
I'm not sorry.
Hellebore wrote: In terms of tabletop presence, 20mm troops are not going to be particularly imposing or easy to work with. Their weapons are either going to look absurdly oversized or be very small and fiddly.
I agree that this is likely the primary reason for their size. I find the idea that their weapons would be absurdly oversized questionable, though. Absurdly oversized weapons describes GW models, period. If GW wanted to downsize the dudes, they could easily downsize the weapons proportionally without losing detail.
kodos wrote: you have to let the concept go that those are dwarfs
GW said those are humans on special exploration duty for several 1000 years and therefore bulkier
so those being human sized is perfectly fine as they are not designed to be dwarfs, those are just humans with non-imperial technology
What they're called in irrelevant to them being intended to be Dwarfs.
And GW has said that they're about 4'4", anyway.
Interesting. I had no idea that GW had given them an official height. I don't think there's any way they are close to 4'4" no matter how you stretch the scale comparisons.
I think GW has just become increasingly allergic to small models. Consider Necromunda which originally (in the 90's) was as small or smaller than the contemporary 40k figures lines. Now it's notably larger. Yet somehow 40k Votaan ended up larger than Necromunda Squats despite them presumably being similar beings and Necromunda being the larger scale!!!
It's mind bending and shockingly inconsistent especially since with current technology it should be easier than ever to standardize scales. Even with scale creep being innevitable, one would think that the company producing the "best wargaming models in the world" would pay better attention to scale.
kodos wrote: you have to let the concept go that those are dwarfs
GW said those are humans on special exploration duty for several 1000 years and therefore bulkier
so those being human sized is perfectly fine as they are not designed to be dwarfs, those are just humans with non-imperial technology
What they're called in irrelevant to them being intended to be Dwarfs.
And GW has said that they're about 4'4", anyway.
Interesting. I had no idea that GW had given them an official height. I don't think there's any way they are close to 4'4" no matter how you stretch the scale comparisons.
I think GW has just become increasingly allergic to small models. Consider Necromunda which originally (in the 90's) was as small or smaller than the contemporary 40k figures lines. Now it's notably larger. Yet somehow 40k Votaan ended up larger than Necromunda Squats despite them presumably being similar beings and Necromunda being the larger scale!!!
It's mind bending and shockingly inconsistent especially since with current technology it should be easier than ever to standardize scales. Even with scale creep being innevitable, one would think that the company producing the "best wargaming models in the world" would pay better attention to scale.
Misremembered, it's not 4'4", it's just 4 foot:
The first thing you might notice is that they look a little squat compared to many other races in the galaxy. Measuring up at around 4ft (1.4m) on average, Kin are miniscule compared to the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes, but they can pack almost as much of a punch.
Mentlegen324 wrote: The first thing you might notice is that they look a little squat compared to many other races in the galaxy. Measuring up at around 4ft (1.4m) on average, Kin are miniscule compared to the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes, but they can pack almost as much of a punch.
The squat reference is cute but Ugh. When you're so desperate to sell a new faction you make them almost space Marines.
To be honest, where else were they supposed to go for a race that has long been described as more than a "normal" human? There isn't much breathing room within the stats between guardsmen and Marines.
I either didn't pay attention or it's not very old news at all. First time I saw the alternate psyker build was last weekend when the model went up for pre-order.
Doesn't seem to have gotten any mention at all before that, though like I said, maybe I just missed it or forgot about it again.
Geifer wrote: I either didn't pay attention or it's not very old news at all. First time I saw the alternate psyker build was last weekend when the model went up for pre-order.
Doesn't seem to have gotten any mention at all before that, though like I said, maybe I just missed it or forgot about it again.
The alt head was shown briefly in the video when the model was first revealed, I remember a bit of mention of it then.
Seems like some kits, even if I preordered, are out of stock and unfortunately not delivered.
Hopefully they will be back soon! Before Christmas!
This "squats return" thread was sometimes fun, but the minis are finally reaching peoples houses and its time to enjoy the sweet kits.
This image I found on the web kind of sums up and shows IMO that with a good paint job and converting that FW, Necromunda and 40k different Dwarfs kits can live perfectly together.
NAVARRO wrote: Seems like some kits, even if I preordered, are out of stock and unfortunately not delivered.
Hopefully they will be back soon! Before Christmas!
This "squats return" thread was sometimes fun, but the minis are finally reaching peoples houses and its time to enjoy the sweet kits.
This image I found on the web kind of sums up and shows IMO that with a good paint job and converting that FW, Necromunda and 40k different Dwarfs kits can live perfectly together.
Yes I ordered from Darksphere and the Sagitaur and Hearthguard are coming next week as "wave 2", but were available in my local GW [nipped in for some paints].
Really enjoying seeing what the community is doing with all the new kits now they are out.
NAVARRO wrote: Seems like some kits, even if I preordered, are out of stock and unfortunately not delivered.
Hopefully they will be back soon! Before Christmas!
This "squats return" thread was sometimes fun, but the minis are finally reaching peoples houses and its time to enjoy the sweet kits.
This image I found on the web kind of sums up and shows IMO that with a good paint job and converting that FW, Necromunda and 40k different Dwarfs kits can live perfectly together.
Yes I ordered from Darksphere and the Sagitaur and Hearthguard are coming next week as "wave 2", but were available in my local GW [nipped in for some paints].
Really enjoying seeing what the community is doing with all the new kits now they are out.
I ordered from Element and the Einhyr Hearthguard are still waiting restock.
Seems like the biggest stores got less than needed to satisfy the preorders.
Plenty of posts online of people huge Votann shopping spree.
Can you imagine the rules arguments if they just made a 3 foot long land train and let it loose on the community! Ervery time the squats went to war a land train was squeezed into deployment zones at awkward angles. 
yet also greatly relieved that this response wasn't entirely ad hominem 
you're a slightly better person already and you are of course welcome for the help.
