Personally I believe this is just a regular troop option and that you will still have the overthetop detailed heavy heroes and specials.
Again, just where has anyone where here asked for the basic troopers to be "overthetop detailed heavy" miniatures? You're really missing the point if that's what you think is being asked for.
A new and quite unique theme is a great idea - but a lack of a theme is not a theme.
Personally I believe this is just a regular troop option and that you will still have the overthetop detailed heavy heroes and specials.
Again, just where has anyone where here asked for the basic troopers to be "overthetop detailed heavy" miniatures? You're really missing the point if that's what you think is being asked for.
Wasn't your main example of what you think they should look like the Necromunda Squat?
The model has a lot of details. What it doesn't have is ornaments. To me this communicates the practical no-nonsense nature, whereas the sleek scifi look communicates high tech level. I assume that all this is perfectly intentional.
I'm perplexed to see this argument, that essentially boils down to "Too busy with iconography". Have you guys forgotten this?
This was the tipping point for me, and frankly I think it has gotten gradually worse. I mean yeah it's still a nice model, just a bit too much...much, for my taste. I find the new HH reveals incredibly refreshing.
For the record, there was a period where I used to do this to my minis, but I eventually decided that this is the way forward for me
I juiced up his gun, added a little personal artefact in the form of a prayer book / operational primer. Doses it suffer for the lack of a 12 inch bayonet and four purity seals? Personally I don't think so. Honestly the excessive bling on modern sculpts is a real bugbear for me sometimes. When they get it right, it's great, but I really feel they overdo it to the point of parody sometimes and I really don't understand why. They're professional artists, surely they know the value of restraint. I often find myself thinking that some higher up in the design dept (who probably isn't a designer themselves) is making (bad) decisions with a lot of these designs.
Assuming its the basic troop unit, of which you might end up running 30 or more, I don't think its unreasonable the thing isn't covered in vast amounts of ornamentation.
I mean its a dwarf, in upgraded flak armour (presumably for a 4+ save) with a fancy looking but presumably not too crazy gun. I'm not sure what else you'd expect.
Its not doing a huge amount for me - but I've always been more on the elf master race team than dwarfs. Now if somehow they release some with Chaos Dwarf Babylonian style beards and the giant pointy hats...
Crimson wrote: The model has a lot of details. What it doesn't have is ornaments. To me this communicates the practical no-nonsense nature, whereas the sleek scifi look communicates high tech level. I assume that all this is perfectly intentional.
It doesn’t look particularly high tech to me, especially compared to Tau or Eldar. It looks quite recognizable to modern sensibilities, like a space suit from a 90’s TV show. It makes me think less of Squats and more of this guy (with a beard):
Personally I believe this is just a regular troop option and that you will still have the overthetop detailed heavy heroes and specials.
Again, just where has anyone where here asked for the basic troopers to be "overthetop detailed heavy" miniatures? You're really missing the point if that's what you think is being asked for.
Wasn't your main example of what you think they should look like the Necromunda Squat?
Sort of - it was the non-Imperial design elements from that model, which boil down to a symbol on the belt buckle, and one on the backpack.
Crimson wrote: The model has a lot of details. What it doesn't have is ornaments. To me this communicates the practical no-nonsense nature, whereas the sleek scifi look communicates high tech level. I assume that all this is perfectly intentional.
It doesn’t look particularly high tech to me, especially compared to Tau or Eldar. It looks quite recognizable to modern sensibilities, like a space suit from a 90’s TV show. It makes me think less of Squats and more of this guy (with a beard):
Do things that don't look particularly high tech to you often remind you of Humanity's greatest technical achievements?
Crimson wrote: The model has a lot of details. What it doesn't have is ornaments. To me this communicates the practical no-nonsense nature, whereas the sleek scifi look communicates high tech level. I assume that all this is perfectly intentional.
Exactly this. There are lots of little touches like the wrist computer, the piping on the legs (that to me suggest an environmental suit), pouches, grenade, casual cybenetics that say a lot about the faction that isn't buried under the usual 40k level of grandiose over-commitment to whichever brand of Imperial/Chaotic/Alien insanity the faction happens to espouse.
I'm excited by the potential here, precisely because it is a departure from the usual over-the-top look.
Personally I believe this is just a regular troop option and that you will still have the overthetop detailed heavy heroes and specials.
Again, just where has anyone where here asked for the basic troopers to be "overthetop detailed heavy" miniatures? You're really missing the point if that's what you think is being asked for.
Wasn't your main example of what you think they should look like the Necromunda Squat?
No, I've not at all said that I want them to all be heavily detailed to the same level as Grendlesen is (He has like 10 different embellishments, most of which are Imperial-themed) just that it could have done with something like a few of the small details he has. Specifically these two, the Squat-themed ones:
Just the belt buckle or the backpack icon (which, regardless of what you think of the whole "Fantasy Dwarf Theming", the Dwarf-face logo and Runes evidently are part of these new models too as they're shown in the reveal video) would make a big difference, but even then, it's not about whether it's specifically fantasy Dwarf stuff or not, it could be anything really, as long as it showcases some level of theming for them that elevates them above just a basic sci-fi look. Currently there's nothing at all to give even a vague semblance of there being more.
Again, even the basic Imperial Guard, Space Marine, Tau, Necron, Genestealer Cult and Ork miniatures have various embellishments and details that link them to their army/theme. Without anything like that at all on the new miniature it feels a bit lacking, It would be like making a new Imperial unit that doesn't feature an Aquila (or similar) anywhere.
All I think they should have done with the new version is add that logo on the backpack, maybe on the belt too, and I feel like like a padded undersuit would have been a bit more interesting (and would have been a bit more unique) - so not a substantial change to their overall design and certainly not the whole sunglasses biker thing again. Still practical, still the high-tech theming, not over-done with the fantasy aesthetic and not an absurd level of detail beyond what you'd expect from a basic trooper, just a bit more life and character to it rather than the "nothing" that the miniature has.
I thought he was a demiurge at first. But apparently they are imperial ? Well, I've rarely seen such a bland and generic, uninspired, model in 40k. I guess all the people who wanted generic advanced humans are going to be happy.
It could, should, have been a joyful day but we got a definitely-not-space-marine with a tau gun, squatau. Super.
Actually being a demiurge would have been way better I think
godardc wrote: I thought he was a demiurge at first. But apparently they are imperial ? Well, I've rarely seen such a bland and generic, uninspired, model in 40k. I guess all the people who wanted generic advanced humans are going to be happy.
It could, should, have been a joyful day but we got a definitely not space marine with a tau gun squatau. Super.
Actually being a demiurge would have been way better I think
He's not wearing power armour or carrying a bolter. How is he a "not space marine"?
Crimson wrote: The model has a lot of details. What it doesn't have is ornaments. To me this communicates the practical no-nonsense nature, whereas the sleek scifi look communicates high tech level. I assume that all this is perfectly intentional.
It doesn’t look particularly high tech to me, especially compared to Tau or Eldar. It looks quite recognizable to modern sensibilities, like a space suit from a 90’s TV show. It makes me think less of Squats and more of this guy (with a beard):
Do things that don't look particularly high tech to you often remind you of Humanity's greatest technical achievements?
Are you suggesting that high tech for the 1960’s is what high tech should look like in 40,000 years? Humanity’s greatest technical achievement so far in present day absolutely shouldn’t look high tech to a civilization that has colonized the galaxy 15,000 years ago.
Does humanity’s greatest technological achievement circa 1000AD look particularly high tech to you?
Crimson wrote: The model has a lot of details. What it doesn't have is ornaments. To me this communicates the practical no-nonsense nature, whereas the sleek scifi look communicates high tech level. I assume that all this is perfectly intentional.
It doesn’t look particularly high tech to me, especially compared to Tau or Eldar. It looks quite recognizable to modern sensibilities, like a space suit from a 90’s TV show. It makes me think less of Squats and more of this guy (with a beard):
Do things that don't look particularly high tech to you often remind you of Humanity's greatest technical achievements?
You mean, humanity's greatest technical achievement in our universe, not one where humanity has colonised thousands of star systems.
GaroRobe wrote: What's the issue? Isn't it a good thing GW isn't cramming dwarf-face runes all over the armor? Or that they're not going the Warcry warband route of having the same icon crammed onto every warrior's belt?
GW has a nasty habit of overdoing that. Just look at space wolves.
Maybe the full kit will have icons on pouches and things to tie them into the faction. I personally prefer adding my own icons, because having icons on already (like GSC models) makes it harder to convert the model into not GSC things.
Yeah, it is like beating a dead horse.
"Here is a dwarf. You know its a dwarf due to its rotund physique and blatant abuse of BEARD. But we think you're a stupid consumer, who needs the concept reinforced at every juncture, so to make up for your perceived lack of intelligence, we have done you the favor of plastering a dwarf face icon on each side of the model, just so you don't forget. You're bloody welcome."
A distinct LACK of such iconography would be a breath of fresh air. I agree with NAVARRO. I dont need you to hold my hand. I want creative freedom. Keep your skulls and other idiotically placed iconography to yourself, GW.
Spoiler:
JWBS wrote: I'm perplexed to see this argument, that essentially boils down to "Too busy with iconography". Have you guys forgotten this?
This was the tipping point for me, and frankly I think it has gotten gradually worse. I mean yeah it's still a nice model, just a bit too much...much, for my taste. I find the new HH reveals incredibly refreshing.
For the record, there was a period where I used to do this to my minis, but I eventually decided that this is the way forward for me
I juiced up his gun, added a little personal artefact in the form of a prayer book / operational primer. Doses it suffer for the lack of a 12 inch bayonet and four purity seals? Personally I don't think so. Honestly the excessive bling on modern sculpts is a real bugbear for me sometimes. When they get it right, it's great, but I really feel they overdo it to the point of parody sometimes and I really don't understand why. They're professional artists, surely they know the value of restraint. I often find myself thinking that some higher up in the design dept (who probably isn't a designer themselves) is making (bad) decisions with a lot of these designs.
JWBS wrote: Surely one hominid picking up a chunk of wood and bashing his neighbour (competitor) was the birth of technology.
That might be the birth of tool use, but not technology. The first whittled spear/stone axe would probably be closer.
Spoiler:
Also, IIRC the monolith in 2001 made a hominid pick up a hip-bone and use it as a club, not a piece of wood
Spoiler:
According to the novel it taught the hominid *time* and that things can change. Then it picked up a bone and clubbed a bigger stronger hominid to get access to a water hole.
GaroRobe wrote: What's the issue? Isn't it a good thing GW isn't cramming dwarf-face runes all over the armor? Or that they're not going the Warcry warband route of having the same icon crammed onto every warrior's belt?
GW has a nasty habit of overdoing that. Just look at space wolves.
Maybe the full kit will have icons on pouches and things to tie them into the faction. I personally prefer adding my own icons, because having icons on already (like GSC models) makes it harder to convert the model into not GSC things.
Yeah, it is like beating a dead horse.
"Here is a dwarf. You know its a dwarf due to its rotund physique and blatant abuse of BEARD. But we think you're a stupid consumer, who needs the concept reinforced at every juncture, so to make up for your perceived lack of intelligence, we have done you the favor of plastering a dwarf face icon on each side of the model, just so you don't forget. You're bloody welcome."
A distinct LACK of such iconography would be a breath of fresh air. I agree with NAVARRO. I dont need you to hold my hand. I want creative freedom. Keep your skulls and other idiotically placed iconography to yourself, GW.
Some people like Fantasy Dwarfs for the typical Fantasy Dwarf theming.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Some people like Fantasy Dwarfs for the typical Fantasy Dwarf theming.
Correction, some people like GW fantasy dwarfs for the not-so-typical-over-the-top-and-obscenely-unnecessary-GW-method-of-forcing-their-brand-of-theming-down-our-collective-throats.
You want a typical themed fantasy dwarf? Look at Middle earth minis. Dwarves done in a way even dwarf haters can get behind. But there is nothing typical about how GW do their Warhammer dwarves. Other than they've been doing it for so long that people mistake it for what dwarves universally are in ANY other setting/IP.
I don't see people complaining Cadians are plain and boring and generic Sci-Fi, even though their aesthetic is wholly ripped from Starship Troopers, and their uniform are rather plain.
I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I don't see people complaining Cadians are plain and boring and generic Sci-Fi, even though their aesthetic is wholly ripped from Starship Troopers, and their uniform are rather plain.
No people complain about Cadians for all different reasons.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Some people like Fantasy Dwarfs for the typical Fantasy Dwarf theming.
Correction, some people like GW fantasy dwarfs for the not-so-typical-over-the-top-and-obscenely-unnecessary-GW-method-of-forcing-their-brand-of-theming-down-our-collective-throats.
You want a typical themed fantasy dwarf? Look at Middle earth minis. Dwarves done in a way even dwarf haters can get behind. But there is nothing typical about how GW do their Warhammer dwarves. Other than they've been doing it for so long that people mistake it for what dwarves universally are in ANY other setting/IP.
What exactly are you referring to that GW does with theirs that other fantasy settings typically don't?
First, the Cadians are at most three-quarters Starship Troopers.
Second, the Cadians have aquilas a-plenty.
Third, IG had a lot of options from the totally-Blanche Vostroyans to the generic 80’s action hero Catachans. Perhaps the Squats will get the same treatment.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
Sigh.
This is a non-argument that's just tiring. People want different things. Learn to live with that.
Third, IG had a lot of options from the totally-Blanche Vostroyans to the generic 80’s action hero Catachans. Perhaps the Squats will get the same treatment.
Given how almost all IG regiments got removed, and now we can choose between old Cadians, ancient Catachans and a single kit of Kriegers, i don't exactly have much faith in Squats getting plenty of distinct regiment-esque-things.
Personally I believe this is just a regular troop option and that you will still have the overthetop detailed heavy heroes and specials.
Again, just where has anyone where here asked for the basic troopers to be "overthetop detailed heavy" miniatures? You're really missing the point if that's what you think is being asked for.
Wasn't your main example of what you think they should look like the Necromunda Squat?
No, I've not at all said that I want them to all be heavily detailed to the same level as Grendlesen is (He has like 10 different embellishments, most of which are Imperial-themed) just that it could have done with something like a few of the small details he has. Specifically these two, the Squat-themed ones:
Just the belt buckle or the backpack icon (which, regardless of what you think of the whole "Fantasy Dwarf Theming", the Dwarf-face logo and Runes evidently are part of these new models too as they're shown in the reveal video) would make a big difference, but even then, it's not about whether it's specifically fantasy Dwarf stuff or not, it could be anything really, as long as it showcases some level of theming for them that elevates them above just a basic sci-fi look. Currently there's nothing at all to give even a vague semblance of there being more.
Again, even the basic Imperial Guard, Space Marine, Tau, Necron, Genestealer Cult and Ork miniatures have various embellishments and details that link them to their army/theme. Without anything like that at all on the new miniature it feels a bit lacking, It would be like making a new Imperial unit that doesn't feature an Aquila (or similar) anywhere.
All I think they should have done with the new version is add that logo on the backpack, maybe on the belt too, and I feel like like a padded undersuit would have been a bit more interesting (and would have been a bit more unique) - so not a substantial change to their overall design and certainly not the whole sunglasses biker thing again. Still practical, still the high-tech theming, not over-done with the fantasy aesthetic and not an absurd level of detail beyond what you'd expect from a basic trooper, just a bit more life and character to it rather than the "nothing" that the miniature has.
So fundamentally you are ok with the design except for the lack of a couple of dwarf embellishments?
I personally dont see the overall design of the Kin change anything or adding anything relevant with those couple embellishments. Unless they go overboard and cover all the armour with these decorative features, like they do most times, and the armour is no longer visible.
See the Necromunda model? Count how many tiny skulls you see there and that is the exact problem I speak off and really dont need on the model.
Its early days though, I love the design as his, different from the old squats funny take on fantasy, not an imperial guard or Necromunda low tech copy paste variant but something actually new and fresh.
This looks actually also fun to paint as opposed to micro dwarf skull detail work.
I think there is a bit of a conflict on your arguments saying that these have no concept just because they are missing a couple dwarf icons though.
Specially when decals would add exactly that to shoulder pads etc.
Im afraid to see the helmet versions though I have the feeling they will mess it up
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
Sigh.
This is a non-argument that's just tiring. People want different things. Learn to live with that.
It’s a good thing there are so many other manufacturers making different things. GW makes GW minis. Or they used to. I guess you finally got them to change who they are.:shrug:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:First, the Cadians are at most three-quarters Starship Troopers.
Second, the Cadians have aquilas a-plenty.
Third, IG had a lot of options from the totally-Blanche Vostroyans to the generic 80’s action hero Catachans. Perhaps the Squats will get the same treatment.
This would make the previewed minis significantly more palatable...
If they were just a specific warband that specializes in void combat cool and they use others to denote the width of Squat culture. If the AncestorLord looks plain that's just mean.
Of course people are overlooking the fact that GW could do both. The faction might have units that are pure sci-fi advanced in style with perhaps more modern armour and weapons and then ancients or relic or runic armours that are elaborate and extravagant. Heck perhaps they start out mostly one and a little the other and then over time the army gets so popular they split development lines into two forces.
GaroRobe wrote: I mean, if people want Space Dwarfs that are very dwarf-y, and are still GW, why not just do KO?
Just swap in the arms and the occasional helmetless head over the KO units, and bam, dwarfs covered in runes and glyphs, but are still sci-fi.
That’s something I came close to doing …before the sticker shock got me. But I wouldn’t pay GW prices that, and I’m even less likely to pay GW prices for a miniature that looks like an early Gates of Antares design or Studio McVey one-off with Stargrave proportions. The feet are the most distinctive part of the new Squat miniature to me. I’m hoping the helmet looks good, too. If it’s another Newcromunda Enforcer marinelet helmet, what a wasted opportunity.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
Sigh.
This is a non-argument that's just tiring. People want different things. Learn to live with that.
It’s a good thing there are so many other manufacturers making different things. GW makes GW minis. Or they used to. I guess you finally got them to change who they are.:shrug:
See your strange idea of what GW IP is and that they should stick to it is what makes GW not to invest in branching into new concepts. Playing safe gets boring fast.
AoS seems healthier with new armies and look and models etc...
I will just say this, theres loads of anime mech things from other manufacturers yet GW did (and very well) branch into Tau.
You probably dont like Tau but I think they are essential to contra balance the grim darkish gothic skull spam and bring in people with a different aesthetic preference.
Personally I believe this is just a regular troop option and that you will still have the overthetop detailed heavy heroes and specials.
Again, just where has anyone where here asked for the basic troopers to be "overthetop detailed heavy" miniatures? You're really missing the point if that's what you think is being asked for.
Wasn't your main example of what you think they should look like the Necromunda Squat?
No, I've not at all said that I want them to all be heavily detailed to the same level as Grendlesen is (He has like 10 different embellishments, most of which are Imperial-themed) just that it could have done with something like a few of the small details he has. Specifically these two, the Squat-themed ones:
Just the belt buckle or the backpack icon (which, regardless of what you think of the whole "Fantasy Dwarf Theming", the Dwarf-face logo and Runes evidently are part of these new models too as they're shown in the reveal video) would make a big difference, but even then, it's not about whether it's specifically fantasy Dwarf stuff or not, it could be anything really, as long as it showcases some level of theming for them that elevates them above just a basic sci-fi look. Currently there's nothing at all to give even a vague semblance of there being more.
Again, even the basic Imperial Guard, Space Marine, Tau, Necron, Genestealer Cult and Ork miniatures have various embellishments and details that link them to their army/theme. Without anything like that at all on the new miniature it feels a bit lacking, It would be like making a new Imperial unit that doesn't feature an Aquila (or similar) anywhere.
All I think they should have done with the new version is add that logo on the backpack, maybe on the belt too, and I feel like like a padded undersuit would have been a bit more interesting (and would have been a bit more unique) - so not a substantial change to their overall design and certainly not the whole sunglasses biker thing again. Still practical, still the high-tech theming, not over-done with the fantasy aesthetic and not an absurd level of detail beyond what you'd expect from a basic trooper, just a bit more life and character to it rather than the "nothing" that the miniature has.
So fundamentally you are ok with the design except for the lack of a couple of dwarf embellishments?
I personally dont see the overall design of the Kin change anything or adding anything relevant with those couple embellishments. Unless they go overboard and cover all the armour with these decorative features, like they do most times, and the armour is no longer visible.
See the Necromunda model? Count how many tiny skulls you see there and that is the exact problem I speak off and really dont need on the model.
I just said they don't have to be specifically Dwarf-themed and that Grendlesen has far more than necessary, the majority of which are Imperial themed and thus wouldn't fit (All the skull purity seals, the Aquila and Winged skulls). Only 2 out of 9 of his embellishments are clearly Squat/Dwarf themed so evidently related to their society.
My issue is rather than them being "Sci-fi with aspects of Fantasy Dwarf theming" (which is what they were before and what Grendlesen was), the model seems to not have the usual elements of a fantasy dwarf theme but that lack of them has been replaced with nothing in its place, making them feel bland. Unlike say the Kharadron Overlords which are "Fantasy Dwarf + Steampunk Sky Pirates", these don't appear to have a unique element to distinguish them and make them stand out compared to other settings. It wouldn't matter to me if say, they had a Nautical/Aquatic theme instead or something like that, it's that they don't have even a slight semblance of either the usual fantasy dwarf theming or anything else beyond just "generic sci-fi".
Neither is it about if something like those icons on the backpack would drastically change the models look, it's that they'd give at least a hint of being part of a army/society with a distinct theme and identity.
I like busy gothic over-the-top models, I just don't think everything needs to be like that. And yes, these have somewhat different aesthetic than GW's typical Imperial aesthetic, which is good thing, as they're not an imperial faction.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
I dont think you're getting the point. its the redundancy thats seems to be the argument being made for and against.
Eldar are great, but you dont see an elf head as their belt buckle to show you they are "ELDAR tm". Dwarves on the other hand, are clearly distinctive, but lets put dwarf heads on everything, because the only thing that distinguishes them from anything else is a beard. *yawn* yawn I say.
Personally, as interesting as squats returning might be, I just wish that GW would get their core game elements and factions right before introducing or perhaps reintroducing novel or novelty models for the SALEZ. New and improved is the lie of the last hundred years, tiresome on every front, and GW is wearing even this suspect trope thin.
Overread wrote: Of course people are overlooking the fact that GW could do both. The faction might have units that are pure sci-fi advanced in style with perhaps more modern armour and weapons and then ancients or relic or runic armours that are elaborate and extravagant. Heck perhaps they start out mostly one and a little the other and then over time the army gets so popular they split development lines into two forces.
The teaser video showed off more than one model with what appeared to be pick axes attached to their armour, so there is that...
From the scant bits we've been privy to I'm under the impressions the design studio have been busy playing a lot of Deep Rock Galactic!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
Sigh.
This is a non-argument that's just tiring. People want different things. Learn to live with that.
It’s a good thing there are so many other manufacturers making different things. GW makes GW minis. Or they used to. I guess you finally got them to change who they are.:shrug:
See your strange idea of what GW IP is and that they should stick to it is what makes GW not to invest in branching into new concepts. Playing safe gets boring fast.
AoS seems healthier with new armies and look and models etc...
I will just say this, theres loads of anime mech things from other manufacturers yet GW did (and very well) branch into Tau.
You probably dont like Tau but I think they are essential to contra balance the grim darkish gothic skull spam and bring in people with a different aesthetic preference.
That’s a good point. Tau were pretty refreshing when GW was all I knew. I suppose if all you care about or are aware of is GW, the design could be a new direction for you.
I still find it odd in a post-Chaoterhouse world for a company that squatted the Bretonnians and Tomb Kings and changed orcs and elves to orruks and aelves to then go and make a mini so ….let’s call it streamlined.
2 boxes of troops, a bike gang. and tarantulas and mole mortars.
THIS was my first foray into 40K.
As to the new ones, I'm sure the upscaling of the figures, the Tau armor and weapons, and the "Total rework" of them will destroy the old aesthetic to the point where they will be as generic as ever.
It's not honestly a question of "Wanting Space Dwarfs," as it is at having a go at just basic kit-bashing and building a 40K army of your own, as much as it shocks GW, the allure of 40K was, and is making an army your own.
My Squats are not just a generic Space Dwarf, if I may be so bold. They were my first tabletop 40K level army. Before that, My RT army was about a half a dozen mercenaries and a Space Marine to lead them. The Squats were like the incursion into an Ork world, and then by the middle of 2d edition, they were an Inquisition support army. The Space Marine was traded up to a 2d level Inquisitor and a scout squad from the Tyranid Attack game enhanced the force.
The Guard and the Leman Russ came later, and the road to ruin was paved...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
I dont think you're getting the point. its the redundancy thats seems to be the argument being made for and against.
Eldar are great, but you dont see an elf head as their belt buckle to show you they are "ELDAR tm". Dwarves on the other hand, are clearly distinctive, but lets put dwarf heads on everything, because the only thing that distinguishes them from anything else is a beard. *yawn* yawn I say.
You can be distinctive without being stupid.
Except for yknow, how the Imperial Guard tends to have the Aquila or the guard symbol in several places typically on their weapons and armour, Space Marines have their winged skull and variations of the Aquila and the like on their chest and weapons, the Mechanicus miniatures have the Cog on their chest and elsewhere, Necrons have the Ankh of the Triarch in the center of their chest, the Tau have the Empire symbol on their shoulder pad, Orks have their various Orky Glyphs, Genestealer Cults have their icon carried on chains and such, Inquisition miniatures tend to have a Rossette of some kind....
...do you not realize that the reason that the dwarf head appears in multiple places on GW Dwarfs...is because that's their faction/army icon representing them overall?
Andykp wrote: These models aren’t going to look like old squats, but you will be able to tell they are squats, the lore released so far is not contrary to any of the old stuff, it’s nods to nostalgia.
They also aren’t going to be fantasy dwarves, even dwarves in fantasy aren’t fantasy dwarves anymore.
I personally hope they don’t do the heavy ornamentation thing, so glad I got the option on marines to not got that route. Less is more sometimes. But tastes vary, but I for one am just happy they are were my main opponent in my early days playing 1st/2nd edition and can’t wait to have them back.
I've not seen anyone here saying they want heavy ornamentation, just something to give them a more noticeable theme and make them less bland. It doesn't have anything at all, not even the same level of ornamentation/detail most other basic troopers get.
It’s ok to leave some stuff for painters to do, it’s nice to have some space to paint. It’s a personal preference thing, I like my models uncluttered personally. Others like the “gothic” OTT look. For all we know this range might have both. His lack of ornamentation currently makes him stand out, as does his nearly imperial/nearly tau weapons. It’s all familiar but not quite. A bit like I hope the faction will be, not quite imperial, not quite not. Like I said I am glad they are back, I would have loved squats just like bob olleys but think I will love these too, and they might stick around this time. What ever through. Squats are BACK! I am a happy camper.
Third, IG had a lot of options from the totally-Blanche Vostroyans to the generic 80’s action hero Catachans. Perhaps the Squats will get the same treatment.
Starship Troopers the movie is 75% Cadians as it came after the models we still use today, and copied heavily the IG aesthetics of the time. On the other hand GW did borrow from the book for the SM, granted that power armor, flying marines with fancy weapons that can level a city was not really a novel trope when Heinlein wrote the book.
Andykp wrote: These models aren’t going to look like old squats, but you will be able to tell they are squats, the lore released so far is not contrary to any of the old stuff, it’s nods to nostalgia.
They also aren’t going to be fantasy dwarves, even dwarves in fantasy aren’t fantasy dwarves anymore.
I personally hope they don’t do the heavy ornamentation thing, so glad I got the option on marines to not got that route. Less is more sometimes. But tastes vary, but I for one am just happy they are were my main opponent in my early days playing 1st/2nd edition and can’t wait to have them back.
I've not seen anyone here saying they want heavy ornamentation, just something to give them a more noticeable theme and make them less bland. It doesn't have anything at all, not even the same level of ornamentation/detail most other basic troopers get.
It’s ok to leave some stuff for painters to do, it’s nice to have some space to paint. It’s a personal preference thing, I like my models uncluttered personally. Others like the “gothic” OTT look. For all we know this range might have both. His lack of ornamentation currently makes him stand out, as does his nearly imperial/nearly tau weapons. It’s all familiar but not quite. A bit like I hope the faction will be, not quite imperial, not quite not. Like I said I am glad they are back, I would have loved squats just like bob olleys but think I will love these too, and they might stick around this time. What ever through. Squats are BACK! I am a happy camper.
Again, as I've said several times in this thread so far, a small faction logo somewhere on their armour would not be some drastic over-the-top gothic grimdark level of detail. It would simply be the same level of ornamentation commonly seen on the majority of basic troops across various 40k armies.
Andykp wrote: These models aren’t going to look like old squats, but you will be able to tell they are squats, the lore released so far is not contrary to any of the old stuff, it’s nods to nostalgia.
They also aren’t going to be fantasy dwarves, even dwarves in fantasy aren’t fantasy dwarves anymore.
I personally hope they don’t do the heavy ornamentation thing, so glad I got the option on marines to not got that route. Less is more sometimes. But tastes vary, but I for one am just happy they are were my main opponent in my early days playing 1st/2nd edition and can’t wait to have them back.
I've not seen anyone here saying they want heavy ornamentation, just something to give them a more noticeable theme and make them less bland. It doesn't have anything at all, not even the same level of ornamentation/detail most other basic troopers get.
It’s ok to leave some stuff for painters to do, it’s nice to have some space to paint. It’s a personal preference thing, I like my models uncluttered personally. Others like the “gothic” OTT look. For all we know this range might have both. His lack of ornamentation currently makes him stand out, as does his nearly imperial/nearly tau weapons. It’s all familiar but not quite. A bit like I hope the faction will be, not quite imperial, not quite not. Like I said I am glad they are back, I would have loved squats just like bob olleys but think I will love these too, and they might stick around this time. What ever through. Squats are BACK! I am a happy camper.
Again, as I've said several times in this thread so far, a small faction logo somewhere on their armour would not be some drastic over-the-top gothic grimdark level of detail. It would simply be the same level of ornamentation commonly seen on the majority of basic troops across various 40k armies.
So are we not counting the iconography on his shoulder pads at all then?
I only ever played against squats once back in 2nd (and it was mainly kit bashed squats from left over fantasy dwarfs + space marine weapons). The new egg shaped main portion of the body armour does look somewhat like the old exo-armour model after modernising it to the point of no longer looking like an armoured mr potato head (this guy: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Exo-armour). Would be really cool if both armour scales of old squats had some kind of representation - the tougher guardsmen and bikers in the Grendlsen style plus the more elite hearthguard like the latest preview.
Andykp wrote: These models aren’t going to look like old squats, but you will be able to tell they are squats, the lore released so far is not contrary to any of the old stuff, it’s nods to nostalgia.
They also aren’t going to be fantasy dwarves, even dwarves in fantasy aren’t fantasy dwarves anymore.
I personally hope they don’t do the heavy ornamentation thing, so glad I got the option on marines to not got that route. Less is more sometimes. But tastes vary, but I for one am just happy they are were my main opponent in my early days playing 1st/2nd edition and can’t wait to have them back.
I've not seen anyone here saying they want heavy ornamentation, just something to give them a more noticeable theme and make them less bland. It doesn't have anything at all, not even the same level of ornamentation/detail most other basic troopers get.
It’s ok to leave some stuff for painters to do, it’s nice to have some space to paint. It’s a personal preference thing, I like my models uncluttered personally. Others like the “gothic” OTT look. For all we know this range might have both. His lack of ornamentation currently makes him stand out, as does his nearly imperial/nearly tau weapons. It’s all familiar but not quite. A bit like I hope the faction will be, not quite imperial, not quite not. Like I said I am glad they are back, I would have loved squats just like bob olleys but think I will love these too, and they might stick around this time. What ever through. Squats are BACK! I am a happy camper.
Again, as I've said several times in this thread so far, a small faction logo somewhere on their armour would not be some drastic over-the-top gothic grimdark level of detail. It would simply be the same level of ornamentation commonly seen on the majority of basic troops across various 40k armies.
So are we not counting the iconography on his shoulder pads at all then?
No, because those are decals / painted on and not part of the actual design of the miniature itself. I didn't count the various Space Marine chapter transfers and Guard regiment badges and all that either because it's specifically about the miniature design and the level of army-themed detail/embellishments/ornamentation on that and not how they've been painted.
ClockworkZion wrote: Also, we have no idea if he has an icon on his chestplate since it's impossible to see most of it.
We have a piece of artwork that clearly shows the middle of the chestplate and there's nothing.
Starship Troopers the movie is 75% Cadians as it came after the models we still use today, and copied heavily the IG aesthetics of the time. .
Starship Troopers was released in 1997. The plastic Cadians arrived in the early 2000s.
The infantry uniforms in Starship Troopers were closer in design to the original metal Cadians (which do predate the movie) than the current plastics.
What's the deal with "GW copying SHT" that crops up frequently on the board whenever some sort of quasi-contemporary-sci-fi kit is released? Like, everything GW makes is somehow based heavily on SHT? I've never even seen that movie, but I see aspects of many different futuristic / modern day aesthetics in GW stuff. It's so bizarre that so many people want to link it to SHT. It seems like an obsession with some people.
They're grunts. With flak armour and helmets and rifles. It's not SHT guys. It's sci-fi infantry. There's onyl so many ways to do it. You can't just say "Oh look, it's SHT'. Well you can ofc, but it's absurd when you do. Tedious and lazy and naïve.
Starship Troopers (the movie) had the same satiric tone as 40k. It also used a lot of the same thematic and visual elements. They are a natural fit together.
If you haven’t seen Starship Troopers, I highly recommend that you do, especially if you are a fan of 40k.
Starship Troopers the movie is 75% Cadians as it came after the models we still use today, and copied heavily the IG aesthetics of the time. .
Starship Troopers was released in 1997. The plastic Cadians arrived in the early 2000s.
The infantry uniforms in Starship Troopers were closer in design to the original metal Cadians (which do predate the movie) than the current plastics.
What's the deal with "GW copying SHT" that crops up frequently on the board whenever some sort of quasi-contemporary-sci-fi kit is released? Like, everything GW makes is somehow based heavily on SHT? I've never even seen that movie, but I see aspects of many different futuristic / modern day aesthetics in GW stuff. It's so bizarre that so many people want to link it to SHT. It seems like an obsession with some people.
They're grunts. With flak armour and helmets and rifles. It's not SHT guys. It's sci-fi infantry. There's onyl so many ways to do it. You can't just say "Oh look, it's SHT'. Well you can ofc, but it's absurd when you do. Tedious and lazy and naïve.
Because Guard vs Nids looks very much like it, so it’s easy to then compare.
jeff white wrote: Personally, as interesting as squats returning might be, I just wish that GW would get their core game elements and factions right before introducing or perhaps reintroducing novel or novelty models for the SALEZ. New and improved is the lie of the last hundred years, tiresome on every front, and GW is wearing even this suspect trope thin.
Yeah, meh… not interested in the least.
Thank you! You can play with the pay pigs you have NOW GW, when these dry up we'll let you have more. But for right now play with the fat little bearded fan wallets you have now!
What's the deal with "GW copying SHT" that crops up frequently on the board whenever some sort of quasi-contemporary-sci-fi kit is released? Like, everything GW makes is somehow based heavily on SHT? I've never even seen that movie, but I see aspects of many different futuristic / modern day aesthetics in GW stuff. It's so bizarre that so many people want to link it to SHT. It seems like an obsession with some people.
They're grunts. With flak armour and helmets and rifles. It's not SHT guys. It's sci-fi infantry. There's onyl so many ways to do it. You can't just say "Oh look, it's SHT'. Well you can ofc, but it's absurd when you do. Tedious and lazy and naïve.
No idea what 'SHT' is, but if you're referring to the Starship Troopers link, it's generally brought up specifically to do with Guard, because Starship Troopers had infantry who looked an awful lot like Cadians, and psychic officers who look like Commissars.
It's less common for people to claim that GW was copying ST, because the GW stuff came first. It's more common for people to suggest that GW drew inspiration heavily from Aliens during 2nd edition because, well, they did.
What's the deal with "GW copying SHT" that crops up frequently on the board whenever some sort of quasi-contemporary-sci-fi kit is released? Like, everything GW makes is somehow based heavily on SHT? I've never even seen that movie, but I see aspects of many different futuristic / modern day aesthetics in GW stuff. It's so bizarre that so many people want to link it to SHT. It seems like an obsession with some people.
They're grunts. With flak armour and helmets and rifles. It's not SHT guys. It's sci-fi infantry. There's onyl so many ways to do it. You can't just say "Oh look, it's SHT'. Well you can ofc, but it's absurd when you do. Tedious and lazy and naïve.
No idea what 'SHT' is, but if you're referring to the Starship Troopers link, it's generally brought up specifically to do with Guard, because Starship Troopers had infantry who looked an awful lot like Cadians, and psychic officers who look like Commissars.
It's less common for people to claim that GW was copying ST, because the GW stuff came first. It's more common for people to suggest that GW drew inspiration heavily from Aliens during 2nd edition because, well, they did.
The 3rd edition Tyranid release had some SST vibes going on.
Yeah, I think technically the shoulders aren't the problem, it's the way GW does the neck sockets, with heads set very low and nothing either side of the neck, which results in a hunched appearance and nothing connecting the shoulders to the torso. It's previously been most prominent in any Terminator character with raised arms.
Mentlegen324 wrote: No, because those are decals / painted on and not part of the actual design of the miniature itself. I didn't count the various Space Marine chapter transfers and Guard regiment badges and all that either because it's specifically about the miniature design and the level of army-themed detail/embellishments/ornamentation on that and not how they've been painted.
ClockworkZion wrote: Also, we have no idea if he has an icon on his chestplate since it's impossible to see most of it.
We have a piece of artwork that clearly shows the middle of the chestplate and there's nothing.
Man that's rough. You should probably skip this whole thing then since you'll clearly not be able to tell what they are without a big fat bearded dwarf head sculpted anywhere else than his own head.
I have no idea how GW didnt manage to run this by your quality assurance test group first. Clearly GW have failed and should fall upon their collective swords since depending on decals is a bridge too far.
What's the deal with "GW copying SHT" that crops up frequently on the board whenever some sort of quasi-contemporary-sci-fi kit is released? Like, everything GW makes is somehow based heavily on SHT? I've never even seen that movie, but I see aspects of many different futuristic / modern day aesthetics in GW stuff. It's so bizarre that so many people want to link it to SHT. It seems like an obsession with some people.
They're grunts. With flak armour and helmets and rifles. It's not SHT guys. It's sci-fi infantry. There's onyl so many ways to do it. You can't just say "Oh look, it's SHT'. Well you can ofc, but it's absurd when you do. Tedious and lazy and naïve.
No idea what 'SHT' is, but if you're referring to the Starship Troopers link, it's generally brought up specifically to do with Guard, because Starship Troopers had infantry who looked an awful lot like Cadians, and psychic officers who look like Commissars.
SHT obviously stands for Stars' Hip Troopers, a charming family comedy about a man and his hips's standing army.
Wiz Warrior wrote: Eldar are great, but you dont see an elf head as their belt buckle to show you they are "ELDAR tm".
In the case of Craftworld Eldar, you have the ever-amusing game of "how many spirit stones have I missed on this model" instead, as well as the other, unexplained, lumpy bits.
ClockworkZion wrote: So are we not counting the iconography on his shoulder pads at all then?
Given they appear to be either transfers or freehand, I believe someone had a phrase regarding "...comparing a pineapple to a potato" that applies here.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
For some it's gw or nothing. Gw logo makes it automatically better even if it looks identical with 5xprice
So I wonder if we're going to see any more reveals of the rest of the blacked out silhouettes from the video on Saturday today? I've very curious to see what these guys are all about.
The new Squat armor looks like some kind of Mechanic's jumpsuit with a hard armor shell on the shoulders. That armor looks like American Football shoulder pads crossed with hard body armor bullet proof vest.
Andykp wrote: These models aren’t going to look like old squats, but you will be able to tell they are squats, the lore released so far is not contrary to any of the old stuff, it’s nods to nostalgia.
They also aren’t going to be fantasy dwarves, even dwarves in fantasy aren’t fantasy dwarves anymore.
I personally hope they don’t do the heavy ornamentation thing, so glad I got the option on marines to not got that route. Less is more sometimes. But tastes vary, but I for one am just happy they are were my main opponent in my early days playing 1st/2nd edition and can’t wait to have them back.
I've not seen anyone here saying they want heavy ornamentation, just something to give them a more noticeable theme and make them less bland. It doesn't have anything at all, not even the same level of ornamentation/detail most other basic troopers get.
It’s ok to leave some stuff for painters to do, it’s nice to have some space to paint. It’s a personal preference thing, I like my models uncluttered personally. Others like the “gothic” OTT look. For all we know this range might have both. His lack of ornamentation currently makes him stand out, as does his nearly imperial/nearly tau weapons. It’s all familiar but not quite. A bit like I hope the faction will be, not quite imperial, not quite not. Like I said I am glad they are back, I would have loved squats just like bob olleys but think I will love these too, and they might stick around this time. What ever through. Squats are BACK! I am a happy camper.
Again, as I've said several times in this thread so far, a small faction logo somewhere on their armour would not be some drastic over-the-top gothic grimdark level of detail. It would simply be the same level of ornamentation commonly seen on the majority of basic troops across various 40k armies.
So are we not counting the iconography on his shoulder pads at all then?
No, because those are decals / painted on and not part of the actual design of the miniature itself. I didn't count the various Space Marine chapter transfers and Guard regiment badges and all that either because it's specifically about the miniature design and the level of army-themed detail/embellishments/ornamentation on that and not how they've been painted.
ClockworkZion wrote: Also, we have no idea if he has an icon on his chestplate since it's impossible to see most of it.
We have a piece of artwork that clearly shows the middle of the chestplate and there's nothing.
So your only gripe is that it doesn’t have any moulded specific iconography on it. That’s pretty minor. My guess as to why this is goes back to old squat lore that they seem to be tapping in to. The squats weren’t a unified race or army. They were a series of leagues of strongholds, each run independently. Lots of small factions that cooperated. So a single badge, like the Aquila wouldn’t make sense. Much as the dark eldar or ORKS don’t have a single emblem that unites them. (I know all armies are assigned a “faction” symbol but that’s for a rules point of view not in game). Now if they bring back the guilds, they may have symbols, so specialists in the leagues like engineers or what ever may well have iconography.
But really, if yiu main complaint is that the belt buckles are a bit plain then it’s not too bad.
Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
Wow some big-time humble pie from me, I was completely wrong!
Sincere apologies to everyone lumped in with the "lol as if they will bring back Squats" comment previously.
I very nearly wrote that I would eat my hat, complete with ketchup, and photograph evidence if they did come back - so very glad I didn't do that now
I am so, so shocked. This would have been absolutely, utterly unfathomable 10-20 years ago. I would say on the same level of God and the Devil joining forces (perhaps on the same level as a combined Mario/Sonic game in the 90s.. )
It does definitely show how much things have changed! I will say congrats to GW, this could well be the first dedicated 40k minis I have bought in over a decade if it turns out they make a half decent job of them.
Bro they already brought back Titanicus, Blood Bowl, Warhammer Quest, AdMech, GSC and Zoats, this isn't as off the beaten path as you make it out to be.
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
lord_blackfang wrote: Bro they already brought back Titanicus, Blood Bowl, Warhammer Quest, AdMech, GSC and Zoats, this isn't as off the beaten path as you make it out to be.
I think it is. It might not have been the case for you (depending on your age and what part of the world you live in) but for me this is absolutely earth-shattering. I made a post in Dakka Discussion why I think that is the case, you are welcome to come and comment! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804421.page
after The Old World, it is not that big of a surprise
GW learned that they can make money with fan-service and keep people engaged by just giving them small pieces of the stuff they want
given that a full faction release take years to prepare it is more of a surprise that GW is doing it now with the release still being months away which does not fit the usual everything secret until the last moment approach
so lets see what else we get until autumn or if this was just a teaser to distract (and nothing else until release)
Genestealer Cults were in a pretty similar situation. They just barely had one up on Squats in that they made it into a 2nd edition codex (albeit as an appendix), but I'd argue that they were much more out of public consciousness before they returned.
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
Turns out the Tau are just a species that the Squats have been supplying their tech to in order to destabilize the imperium. The squats are the new Illuminati/Free Space Masons and are pulling all the strings behind the scene in the imperium.
GaroRobe wrote: I mean, if people want Space Dwarfs that are very dwarf-y, and are still GW, why not just do KO?
Just swap in the arms and the occasional helmetless head over the KO units, and bam, dwarfs covered in runes and glyphs, but are still sci-fi.
That’s something I came close to doing …before the sticker shock got me. But I wouldn’t pay GW prices that, and I’m even less likely to pay GW prices for a miniature that looks like an early Gates of Antares design or Studio McVey one-off with Stargrave proportions. The feet are the most distinctive part of the new Squat miniature to me. I’m hoping the helmet looks good, too. If it’s another Newcromunda Enforcer marinelet helmet, what a wasted opportunity.
Hey, you know, you could use these space dwarves as boromite count-as for Antares, true... nice
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
Mentlegen324 wrote: No, because those are decals / painted on and not part of the actual design of the miniature itself. I didn't count the various Space Marine chapter transfers and Guard regiment badges and all that either because it's specifically about the miniature design and the level of army-themed detail/embellishments/ornamentation on that and not how they've been painted.
ClockworkZion wrote: Also, we have no idea if he has an icon on his chestplate since it's impossible to see most of it.
We have a piece of artwork that clearly shows the middle of the chestplate and there's nothing.
Man that's rough. You should probably skip this whole thing then since you'll clearly not be able to tell what they are without a big fat bearded dwarf head sculpted anywhere else than his own head.
I have no idea how GW didnt manage to run this by your quality assurance test group first. Clearly GW have failed and should fall upon their collective swords since depending on decals is a bridge too far.
It's already been explained to you how it's not about being able to "tell they're a dwarf", It's not about it being a Dwarf head icon specifically and even if that was the case, the Dwarf head is their army icon and is therefore no more out of place than an Aquila is on an Imperial unit. Here, i'll quote this for you again because you seem to have missed it:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to admit I’m perplexed about people who want GW to make more generic Sci Fi troopers. You can buy lots of generic Sci Fi troopers right now, for a third of the price (or less!). GW charges a lot for minis set in their IP—why spend trademarked IP bling money on a mini without the trademarked IP bling?
If Space Marines and guard and Eldar are too GW for you…are you sure you want to buy GW minis?
I dont think you're getting the point. its the redundancy thats seems to be the argument being made for and against.
Eldar are great, but you dont see an elf head as their belt buckle to show you they are "ELDAR tm". Dwarves on the other hand, are clearly distinctive, but lets put dwarf heads on everything, because the only thing that distinguishes them from anything else is a beard. *yawn* yawn I say.
You can be distinctive without being stupid.
Except for yknow, how the Imperial Guard tends to have the Aquila or the guard symbol in several places typically on their weapons and armour, Space Marines have their winged skull and variations of the Aquila and the like on their chest and weapons, the Mechanicus miniatures have the Cog on their chest and elsewhere, Necrons have the Ankh of the Triarch in the center of their chest, the Tau have the Empire symbol on their shoulder pad, Orks have their various Orky Glyphs, Genestealer Cults have their icon carried on chains and such, Inquisition miniatures tend to have a Rossette of some kind....
...do you not realize that the reason that the dwarf head appears in multiple places on GW Dwarfs...is because that's their faction/army icon representing them overall?
As I have said already though, it isn't about it being Fantasy Dwarf theming, but without the miniature even having any of the usual fantasy Dwarf theming and also nothing to replace that not being there, it's just bland.
I'll reserve judgement on the aesthetics until we see more pictures of what the range will include. We don't know yet if this is monopose or multiparts (if the latter, could be more heads), we don't know if this is their basic troop unit or something more elite. Basically, the speculation cannons are firing on auto, so let's try and avoid friendly fire.
Squats are cool and all.... but Hrud would be a more interesting faction to see on the tabletop.
Range weapons would be near useless, mortal Wounds just being in proximity to them, slowing units movements to a crawl, and forcing successful hits to be rerolled.
I dont see what Squats have to offer. Technologically advanced race is dime a dozen.
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
IMO it says "Tau" on their shoulder pads. First letter is clearly a fancy "T", last letter is clearly a fancy "U". The middle letter can be argued to be a fancy looking "A". if you squint. That was my first thought upon seeing the model as a friend messaged me a photo without the context of the Warcom article, so I immediately though "oh, are these Demiurg Tau allies then"?
Also notice he's got a carabiner in both model and art. I wonder if that means one of their units could be an air-dropship which they hang down from to deploy to the battlefield?
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
All of those are also on Van Saar equipment.
I think a lot of us are more familiar with 40k and the Tau than necromunda and the Van Saar. I know I am so when seeing those elements that where I went first.
But the old STC angle makes a lot of sense. Will be interesting to see how the visuals tie into the lore.
Overread wrote: Also notice he's got a carabiner in both model and art. I wonder if that means one of their units could be an air-dropship which they hang down from to deploy to the battlefield?
Dwarfs deploying from airships would be a unique new schtick for a GW army.
Overread wrote: Also notice he's got a carabiner in both model and art. I wonder if that means one of their units could be an air-dropship which they hang down from to deploy to the battlefield?
Dwarfs deploying from airships would be a unique new schtick for a GW army.
Tempestus Scions with grav-chutes from Valkyries. It's not the same, but similar.
Overread wrote: Also notice he's got a carabiner in both model and art. I wonder if that means one of their units could be an air-dropship which they hang down from to deploy to the battlefield?
Dwarfs deploying from airships would be a unique new schtick for a GW army.
Tempestus Scions with grav-chutes from Valkyries. It's not hte same, but similar.
I believe that was sarcasm, given how AoS' Kharadron is an army of dwarfs deploying from airships.
I hope the feet aren't like this on all of them, both the miniature and the artwork has them with bionic feet, and there's a rumour engine picture of another metal foot + leg but it's clearly different from the one shown here. Casual cybernetic enhancement is one thing, but having them all be amputees would be odd, especially when that's already the Mechanicus' thing.
Overread wrote: Also notice he's got a carabiner in both model and art. I wonder if that means one of their units could be an air-dropship which they hang down from to deploy to the battlefield?
Dwarfs deploying from airships would be a unique new schtick for a GW army.
Tempestus Scions with grav-chutes from Valkyries. It's not hte same, but similar.
I believe that was sarcasm, given how AoS' Kharadron is an army of dwarfs deploying from airships.
No grav chutes. Squats use balloons filled with Hopeium, a highly combustible gas provided for decades by fanboys.
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
IMO it says "Tau" on their shoulder pads. First letter is clearly a fancy "T", last letter is clearly a fancy "U". The middle letter can be argued to be a fancy looking "A". if you squint. That was my first thought upon seeing the model as a friend messaged me a photo without the context of the Warcom article, so I immediately though "oh, are these Demiurg Tau allies then"?
Overread wrote: Also notice he's got a carabiner in both model and art. I wonder if that means one of their units could be an air-dropship which they hang down from to deploy to the battlefield?
Dwarfs deploying from airships would be a unique new schtick for a GW army.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I hope the feet aren't like this on all of them, both the miniature and the artwork has them with bionic feet, and there's a rumour engine picture of another metal foot + leg but it's clearly different from the one shown here. Casual cybernetic enhancement is one thing, but having them all be amputees would be odd, especially when that's already the Mechanicus' thing.
Quite hard to make out the art, but it looks like normal boots to me, not mechanical feet like the model.
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
IMO it says "Tau" on their shoulder pads. First letter is clearly a fancy "T", last letter is clearly a fancy "U". The middle letter can be argued to be a fancy looking "A". if you squint. That was my first thought upon seeing the model as a friend messaged me a photo without the context of the Warcom article, so I immediately though "oh, are these Demiurg Tau allies then"?
Those are runes based on Norse runes.
They are made up pseudo-runic gobbledygook that clearly spell out something analogous to "TAU" relative to the latin alphabet.
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
IMO it says "Tau" on their shoulder pads. First letter is clearly a fancy "T", last letter is clearly a fancy "U". The middle letter can be argued to be a fancy looking "A". if you squint. That was my first thought upon seeing the model as a friend messaged me a photo without the context of the Warcom article, so I immediately though "oh, are these Demiurg Tau allies then"?
Those are runes based on Norse runes.
They are made up pseudo-runic gobbledygook that clearly spell out something analogous to "TAU" relative to the latin alphabet.
Just because it looks like something doesn't mean it is that thing.
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
IMO it says "Tau" on their shoulder pads. First letter is clearly a fancy "T", last letter is clearly a fancy "U". The middle letter can be argued to be a fancy looking "A". if you squint. That was my first thought upon seeing the model as a friend messaged me a photo without the context of the Warcom article, so I immediately though "oh, are these Demiurg Tau allies then"?
Those are runes based on Norse runes.
They are made up pseudo-runic gobbledygook that clearly spell out something analogous to "TAU" relative to the latin alphabet.
Just because it looks like something doesn't mean it is that thing.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I hope the feet aren't like this on all of them, both the miniature and the artwork has them with bionic feet, and there's a rumour engine picture of another metal foot + leg but it's clearly different from the one shown here. Casual cybernetic enhancement is one thing, but having them all be amputees would be odd, especially when that's already the Mechanicus' thing.
Quite hard to make out the art, but it looks like normal boots to me, not mechanical feet like the model.
It is hard to tell for sure either way, but it does look to have the defined toes-shapes at the front and the round bit at the side like the mechanical foot has.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I hope the feet aren't like this on all of them, both the miniature and the artwork has them with bionic feet, and there's a rumour engine picture of another metal foot + leg but it's clearly different from the one shown here. Casual cybernetic enhancement is one thing, but having them all be amputees would be odd, especially when that's already the Mechanicus' thing.
Quite hard to make out the art, but it looks like normal boots to me, not mechanical feet like the model.
It is hard to tell for sure either way, but it does look to have the defined toes-shapes at the front and the round bit at the side like the mechanical foot has.
It looks like ribbed boots, and much wider ankles to me.
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
IMO it says "Tau" on their shoulder pads. First letter is clearly a fancy "T", last letter is clearly a fancy "U". The middle letter can be argued to be a fancy looking "A". if you squint. That was my first thought upon seeing the model as a friend messaged me a photo without the context of the Warcom article, so I immediately though "oh, are these Demiurg Tau allies then"?
Those are runes based on Norse runes.
They are made up pseudo-runic gobbledygook that clearly spell out something analogous to "TAU" relative to the latin alphabet.
Just because it looks like something doesn't mean it is that thing.
Why no, Inquisition! That isn't the eight-pointed star of chaos, see? The eighth point isn't actually attached, so it's actually just a regular, rather wholesome, seven pointed star with an extra arrow that just happens to be nearby. Certainly nothing heretical here. Wait. Why are you drawing your pistol? Didn't I sufficiently explain -
You know exactly what I meant. Just because letters in a a different look like the latin alphabet doesn't mean they are part of the latin alphabet or should be read as such. You're just reaching to go "well it SAYS 'Tau'" despite those not being the letters used by humanity OR T'au to denote the T'au people.
I am all for hoping they get to ally with Tau like GSC can with Guard just because it'd be interesting but let's not make up bad readings of fictional alphabets just to spin up conspiracy theories.
ClockworkZion wrote: You know exactly what I meant. Just because letters in a a different look like the latin alphabet doesn't mean they are part of the latin alphabet or should be read as such. You're just reaching to go "well it SAYS 'Tau'" despite those not being the letters used by humanity OR T'au to denote the T'au people.
I am all for hoping they get to ally with Tau like GSC can with Guard just because it'd be interesting but let's not make up bad readings of fictional alphabets just to spin up conspiracy theories.
Have you really never heard of a joke or an easter egg before? Its a made up alphabet, they could have made it read like pretty much anything, they chose to make it look like the word "TAU".
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
Ok, I can see the panel lines, but the rest is 100 % Van Saar STC gear. And the panel lines aren’t THAT distinctive. I’m gonna call no evidence to support Tau links at all, for now.
Also, I can see the battle gear being different from the ”civilian” gear of Grendlsen. Space for both and I REALLY like the sample model. Well, as long as most of them don’t have metal hobbit feet.
ClockworkZion wrote: You know exactly what I meant. Just because letters in a a different look like the latin alphabet doesn't mean they are part of the latin alphabet or should be read as such. You're just reaching to go "well it SAYS 'Tau'" despite those not being the letters used by humanity OR T'au to denote the T'au people.
I am all for hoping they get to ally with Tau like GSC can with Guard just because it'd be interesting but let's not make up bad readings of fictional alphabets just to spin up conspiracy theories.
Have you really never heard of a joke or an easter egg before? Its a made up alphabet, they could have made it read like pretty much anything, they chose to make it look like the word "TAU".
No, they chose a combination of runes that if you ignore the differences vaguely looks like the word "TAU" if you decideto read it as that.
So in an effort to get some discussion going beyond arguing over dwarf head icons and boots....
This army is going to be interesting. Going on what we have, which is one model...
It looks like some kind of flamer or meltagun that he's equipped with. I know they're supposed to be all about better tech, so I'm wondering if they're going to play as in between Marines and Guard, really hitting up that 24 inch range ban with some heavy support and lots of high strength, high AP shooting?
What kinds of things did the old Squat army have in their armories?
N3p3nth3 wrote: Could someone point me to these oft-repeated ”Tau elements” are, since (all) that I’m seeing here is Van Saar energy weapons coupled with a heavier version of the Genestealer mining gear?
Backpack’s like a modernized version of the KO Arkanaut one, but those three are all the design influences I’m spotting, maybe apart from Volkite weaponry concept art.
The panel lines, under slung power cell and circular feature with two notches on the weapon are all very reminiscent of Tau equipment.
Ok, I can see the panel lines, but the rest is 100 % Van Saar STC gear. And the panel lines aren’t THAT distinctive. I’m gonna call no evidence to support Tau links at all, for now.
Also, I can see the battle gear being different from the ”civilian” gear of Grendlsen. Space for both and I REALLY like the sample model. Well, as long as most of them don’t have metal hobbit feet.
Grendl is wearing their Regimental uniform which so happens to match with the original Trooper.
I kinda hope that there are more than the one troop choice. Definitely room for flak armor variant in addition to the carapace/power armor version we've been shown. Seriously though, are people thinking he has a 3+ save, or 4+? I can see it both ways.
Tyran wrote: I'm expecting T4 with Sv4+ as I believe that is a currently unused profile.
I think that’s a very likely profile.
Also, really starting to appreciate the rebrand. ”Squats return” sounds like what you yell on the way to a bathroom when struck by a particularly vicious type of diarrhea.
What I’m interested to see is how they interpret the traditional Squat high leadership.
You see, Grasshopper*, Squats weren’t only T4 long before Marines were, but had across the board high mental stats. Willpower and Cool have of course long since gone into the ether (no I can’t say how those actually worked), but their Leadership (which of course became the catch all mental stat) was also really solid.
Other than movement and initiative, they were typically above average stats wise.
I’m not gonna speculate because I’ve not played in years, but perhaps this post will allow the actually informed to speculate.
*I’m assuming I’m older than you and my collection of Books From Before My Heyday mean most won’t know this!
Ld7? Same as your average, run-of-the-mill Marine, or an Eldar Guardian, with maybe an 8 for the unit Sergant, and 8s across the board for the more elite infantry units?
cuda1179 wrote: I kinda hope that there are more than the one troop choice. Definitely room for flak armor variant in addition to the carapace/power armor version we've been shown. Seriously though, are people thinking he has a 3+ save, or 4+? I can see it both ways.
I am guessing the basic will have a 4+ save with probably a 6++ built in to represent power fields and such. ExoArmor will likely be the home of a 2+/3+ with maybe a 5++ stronger power field. Furthermore I'm guessing htey'll be T4 or T5 with S4 and WS/BS 3+. LD probably somewhere around a 7-8.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Ld7? Same as your average, run-of-the-mill Marine, or an Eldar Guardian, with maybe an 8 for the unit Sergant, and 8s across the board for the more elite infantry units?
Yeah I’m fairly sure you’re talking mince. Will check when I get in.
You may be right of course, but I suspect you’re not.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What I’m interested to see is how they interpret the traditional Squat high leadership.
You see, Grasshopper*, Squats weren’t only T4 long before Marines were, but had across the board high mental stats. Willpower and Cool have of course long since gone into the ether (no I can’t say how those actually worked), but their Leadership (which of course became the catch all mental stat) was also really solid.
Psychic resistance tests and fear/terror tests, respectively. Intelligence (the 4th stat) was a minimum requirement for some weapons and gear (orks got locked out of some things)
For most armies they were all the same or within one step of each other (7/7/7/7 or 7/8/7/8, or 6/7/6/7 for orks, iirc). And yes fear/terror used a different stat than morale. Because.
Collapsing the mental stats together was worthwhile.
As far as their defensive stats, I wouldn't be surprised if they have something... more. 5++ forcefields (that's a chonky backpack, that doesn't seem to actually carry gear) or 6+++ toughness(even though that's fading out), or, most likely (imo), as a nod to 'psychic resistance,' a 5+ vs mortal wounds, because that's still propagating in the codex design meta.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What I’m interested to see is how they interpret the traditional Squat high leadership.
You see, Grasshopper*, Squats weren’t only T4 long before Marines were, but had across the board high mental stats. Willpower and Cool have of course long since gone into the ether (no I can’t say how those actually worked), but their Leadership (which of course became the catch all mental stat) was also really solid.
Other than movement and initiative, they were typically above average stats wise.
I’m not gonna speculate because I’ve not played in years, but perhaps this post will allow the actually informed to speculate.
*I’m assuming I’m older than you and my collection of Books From Before My Heyday mean most won’t know this!
They’re going to bring back the 2e marine atsknf, of course. Shaken, not stirred.
No, I don’t know how that would work with the current morale, either.
(I’m also quite old, and probably my disappointment over gw not releasing the promised squat codex resulted in me always staying just on the fringes of the hobby, in spite of brave attempts to pull me in by the Goodwin Dark Eldar and Newcromunda).
Nice, my initial reaction is cautiously optimistic. I'll probably make at least a kill team of Squats (which I suspect will be the first kit to be released).
ClockworkZion wrote: You know exactly what I meant. Just because letters in a a different look like the latin alphabet doesn't mean they are part of the latin alphabet or should be read as such. You're just reaching to go "well it SAYS 'Tau'" despite those not being the letters used by humanity OR T'au to denote the T'au people.
I am all for hoping they get to ally with Tau like GSC can with Guard just because it'd be interesting but let's not make up bad readings of fictional alphabets just to spin up conspiracy theories.
Have you really never heard of a joke or an easter egg before? Its a made up alphabet, they could have made it read like pretty much anything, they chose to make it look like the word "TAU".
Oh I've heard of jokes before, but they're supposed to be funny. Might not want to quit your day job and keep working on those punchlines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Togusa wrote: So in an effort to get some discussion going beyond arguing over dwarf head icons and boots....
This army is going to be interesting. Going on what we have, which is one model...
It looks like some kind of flamer or meltagun that he's equipped with. I know they're supposed to be all about better tech, so I'm wondering if they're going to play as in between Marines and Guard, really hitting up that 24 inch range ban with some heavy support and lots of high strength, high AP shooting?
What kinds of things did the old Squat army have in their armories?
I'm assuming it's going to be an energy weapon in the vein of volkite weapons personally. But I'm a big fan of Volkite and have a bias.
ClockworkZion wrote: You know exactly what I meant. Just because letters in a a different look like the latin alphabet doesn't mean they are part of the latin alphabet or should be read as such. You're just reaching to go "well it SAYS 'Tau'" despite those not being the letters used by humanity OR T'au to denote the T'au people.
I am all for hoping they get to ally with Tau like GSC can with Guard just because it'd be interesting but let's not make up bad readings of fictional alphabets just to spin up conspiracy theories.
Have you really never heard of a joke or an easter egg before? Its a made up alphabet, they could have made it read like pretty much anything, they chose to make it look like the word "TAU".
Oh I've heard of jokes before, but they're supposed to be funny. Might not want to quit your day job and keep working on those punchlines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Togusa wrote: So in an effort to get some discussion going beyond arguing over dwarf head icons and boots....
This army is going to be interesting. Going on what we have, which is one model...
It looks like some kind of flamer or meltagun that he's equipped with. I know they're supposed to be all about better tech, so I'm wondering if they're going to play as in between Marines and Guard, really hitting up that 24 inch range ban with some heavy support and lots of high strength, high AP shooting?
What kinds of things did the old Squat army have in their armories?
I'm assuming it's going to be an energy weapon in the vein of volkite weapons personally. But I'm a big fan of Volkite and have a bias.
Plus "Volkite" fits GW Dwarves based on GW naming a unit "Vulkite Berserkers". And it's a tempormental dark age of technology weapon the Imperium had to give up on that would fit well with space dwarves who know how to actually fix and improve things.
ClockworkZion wrote: Plus "Volkite" fits GW Dwarves based on GW naming a unit "Vulkite Berserkers". And it's a tempormental dark age of technology weapon the Imperium had to give up on that would fit well with space dwarves who know how to actually fix and improve things.
Starship Troopers the movie is 75% Cadians as it came after the models we still use today, and copied heavily the IG aesthetics of the time. .
Starship Troopers was released in 1997. The plastic Cadians arrived in the early 2000s.
The infantry uniforms in Starship Troopers were closer in design to the original metal Cadians (which do predate the movie) than the current plastics.
What's the deal with "GW copying SHT" that crops up frequently on the board whenever some sort of quasi-contemporary-sci-fi kit is released? Like, everything GW makes is somehow based heavily on SHT? I've never even seen that movie, but I see aspects of many different futuristic / modern day aesthetics in GW stuff. It's so bizarre that so many people want to link it to SHT. It seems like an obsession with some people.
They're grunts. With flak armour and helmets and rifles. It's not SHT guys. It's sci-fi infantry. There's onyl so many ways to do it. You can't just say "Oh look, it's SHT'. Well you can ofc, but it's absurd when you do. Tedious and lazy and naïve.
Because Guard vs Nids looks very much like it, so it’s easy to then compare.
Also, what’s the H you’re using in SHT?
It was my dad's 65th on sunday, so at dinner I did some day drinking, then when I got home I decided to carry on chugging (my fatal mistake). I have no idea why I decided ST should be SHT, but I'm gonna blame it on my inebriation (also the ranty, unreasonably agitated tone too! Yes, that seems plausible )
What kinds of things did the old Squat army have in their armories?
In 40k, basically just the same stuff that the other imperial armies did. Basic troops had lasguns and they had all the normal heavy and support weapons.
Their lasguns have clearly had an upgrade, and there will presumably be heavier versions of whatever that weapon is. If we're lucky, there will be five different versions of the same gun with different energy canisters to tell them apart! Woo!
I would also expect to see mole mortars (or a new weapon on a similar theme) since they haven't been appropriated by anyone else outside of Forgeworld offerings. Possibly access to Ambots and conversion beamers, but more likely just a bunch of completely new gear made up to keep them distinct from other factions.
And exo-armour, obviously. Can't remake Squats without updating the wee little eggmen!
ClockworkZion wrote: Plus "Volkite" fits GW Dwarves based on GW naming a unit "Vulkite Berserkers". And it's a tempormental dark age of technology weapon the Imperium had to give up on that would fit well with space dwarves who know how to actually fix and improve things.
Similar to Gauss?
They're more like sci-fi "heat rays". To quote Lexicanum:
Possessing a killing power surpassing most armaments of their size, Volkites were little-understood and difficult to replicate on even the most capable Mechanicus Forge Worlds. Volkite weapons could Deflagrate organic matter, explosively burning flesh into ash and jetting fire. A direct hit by a Volkite weapon could cause a target to simply combust, often taking nearby comrades with them.
For the curious, "deflagerate" means "burn away or cause (a substance) to burn away with a sudden flame and rapid, sharp combustion."
Yes, I want Sisters of Battle to have them, but GW seems to say "no" instead.
Togusa wrote: So in an effort to get some discussion going beyond arguing over dwarf head icons and boots....
This army is going to be interesting. Going on what we have, which is one model...
It looks like some kind of flamer or meltagun that he's equipped with. I know they're supposed to be all about better tech, so I'm wondering if they're going to play as in between Marines and Guard, really hitting up that 24 inch range ban with some heavy support and lots of high strength, high AP shooting?
What kinds of things did the old Squat army have in their armories?
We can infer they're going to have some kind of grav weapons based on the passage in Psychic Awakening mentioning them.
ClockworkZion wrote: Plus "Volkite" fits GW Dwarves based on GW naming a unit "Vulkite Berserkers". And it's a tempormental dark age of technology weapon the Imperium had to give up on that would fit well with space dwarves who know how to actually fix and improve things.
Similar to Gauss?
They're more like sci-fi "heat rays". To quote Lexicanum:
Possessing a killing power surpassing most armaments of their size, Volkites were little-understood and difficult to replicate on even the most capable Mechanicus Forge Worlds. Volkite weapons could Deflagrate organic matter, explosively burning flesh into ash and jetting fire. A direct hit by a Volkite weapon could cause a target to simply combust, often taking nearby comrades with them.
For the curious, "deflagerate" means "burn away or cause (a substance) to burn away with a sudden flame and rapid, sharp combustion."
Yes, I want Sisters of Battle to have them, but GW seems to say "no" instead.
To be fair, i think the only way you can get Volkite at all in 40k outside the new Chaos Knight, is on some Primaris and a single AdMech HQ.
ClockworkZion wrote: Plus "Volkite" fits GW Dwarves based on GW naming a unit "Vulkite Berserkers". And it's a tempormental dark age of technology weapon the Imperium had to give up on that would fit well with space dwarves who know how to actually fix and improve things.
Similar to Gauss?
They're more like sci-fi "heat rays". To quote Lexicanum:
Possessing a killing power surpassing most armaments of their size, Volkites were little-understood and difficult to replicate on even the most capable Mechanicus Forge Worlds. Volkite weapons could Deflagrate organic matter, explosively burning flesh into ash and jetting fire. A direct hit by a Volkite weapon could cause a target to simply combust, often taking nearby comrades with them.
For the curious, "deflagerate" means "burn away or cause (a substance) to burn away with a sudden flame and rapid, sharp combustion."
Yes, I want Sisters of Battle to have them, but GW seems to say "no" instead.
I always imagined the effects of volkite to look like those of the drones' guns in Oblivion.
ClockworkZion wrote: Plus "Volkite" fits GW Dwarves based on GW naming a unit "Vulkite Berserkers". And it's a tempormental dark age of technology weapon the Imperium had to give up on that would fit well with space dwarves who know how to actually fix and improve things.
Similar to Gauss?
They're more like sci-fi "heat rays". To quote Lexicanum:
Possessing a killing power surpassing most armaments of their size, Volkites were little-understood and difficult to replicate on even the most capable Mechanicus Forge Worlds. Volkite weapons could Deflagrate organic matter, explosively burning flesh into ash and jetting fire. A direct hit by a Volkite weapon could cause a target to simply combust, often taking nearby comrades with them.
For the curious, "deflagerate" means "burn away or cause (a substance) to burn away with a sudden flame and rapid, sharp combustion."
Yes, I want Sisters of Battle to have them, but GW seems to say "no" instead.
I always imagined the effects of volkite to look like those of the drones' guns in Oblivion.
Quite curious how they're going to tackle a number of nits in the current state of the lore:
- Tyranids. Obviously they didn't eat all the Squats, but is them eating most of the Squats even still a thing? How do they feel about Tyranids if that is the case? I have an impression that it may still be a thing, as the emphasis on void travel (sealed uniform, intro video having them board an Imperial vessel presumably to salvage), plus the very name "League of Votann" doesn't sound like the name of an empire but rather an alliance of fleets, perhaps all that remains of the Squat race after the Tyranids consumed whatever planet holdings they had.
- The Emperor. They clearly didn't join the Imperium proper but given their access and apparent deep knowledge of DAoT tech, how could the Emperor have possibly let them be? Much less his own designs for reacquiring such technology, he would have been hard pressed to justify not taking an aggressive stance against the Squats on behalf of Mars - surely the incarnation of the Omnissiah would not shirk the holy duty of recovering such knowledge for humanity proper.
-General 30k-40k timeline progression and their previous lack of involvement or even utter non-existence.
I am sure there is an easy solution to points 2 and 3, involving some sort of DAoT hijinks that had them hiding utterly from the rest of the galaxy (though you'd expect the Emperor at least to be aware of them, but point #2 is a non-issue if he knew but didn't care and never revealed to anyone else who they were and what they had), but it's bit of a cop-out.
ClockworkZion wrote: Plus "Volkite" fits GW Dwarves based on GW naming a unit "Vulkite Berserkers". And it's a tempormental dark age of technology weapon the Imperium had to give up on that would fit well with space dwarves who know how to actually fix and improve things.
Similar to Gauss?
They're more like sci-fi "heat rays". To quote Lexicanum:
Possessing a killing power surpassing most armaments of their size, Volkites were little-understood and difficult to replicate on even the most capable Mechanicus Forge Worlds. Volkite weapons could Deflagrate organic matter, explosively burning flesh into ash and jetting fire. A direct hit by a Volkite weapon could cause a target to simply combust, often taking nearby comrades with them.
For the curious, "deflagerate" means "burn away or cause (a substance) to burn away with a sudden flame and rapid, sharp combustion."
Yes, I want Sisters of Battle to have them, but GW seems to say "no" instead.
I always imagined the effects of volkite to look like those of the drones' guns in Oblivion.
I always think of "Mars Attacks!"
Yup, violent cell incineration from the inside out.
- Tyranids. Obviously they didn't eat all the Squats, but is them eating most of the Squats even still a thing? How do they feel about Tyranids if that is the case? I have an impression that it may still be a thing, as the emphasis on void travel (sealed uniform, intro video having them board an Imperial vessel presumably to salvage), plus the very name "League of Votann" doesn't sound like the name of an empire but rather an alliance of fleets, perhaps all that remains of the Squat race after the Tyranids consumed whatever planet holdings they had.
Has the whole 'eaten by the Tyranids' actually been written anywhere outside of the intro blurb to Ian Watson's Inquisition War? I can't recall coming across it anywhere else, and if that's the case, then I suspect they'll deal with it by just ignoring it.
- The Emperor. They clearly didn't join the Imperium proper but given their access and apparent deep knowledge of DAoT tech, how could the Emperor have possibly let them be? Much less his own designs for reacquiring such technology, he would have been hard pressed to justify not taking an aggressive stance against the Squats on behalf of Mars - surely the incarnation of the Omnissiah would not shirk the holy duty of recovering such knowledge for humanity proper.
The easy answer would be that they nominally joined the Imperium to begin with, and there would quite possibly have initially been some knowledge sharing, and then they gradually become more independent after the Heresy.
Or, they were on the Emperor's hit-list, but due to their advanced tech had been reserved as a target for the closing stages of the Crusade, when the Imperium could focus on them properly... and then the Heresy happened and took the focus off them for some time, after which an uneasy alliance of sorts let everyone just get on with doing their own thing.
Starship Troopers the movie is 75% Cadians as it came after the models we still use today, and copied heavily the IG aesthetics of the time. .
Starship Troopers was released in 1997. The plastic Cadians arrived in the early 2000s.
The infantry uniforms in Starship Troopers were closer in design to the original metal Cadians (which do predate the movie) than the current plastics.
What's the deal with "GW copying SHT" that crops up frequently on the board whenever some sort of quasi-contemporary-sci-fi kit is released? Like, everything GW makes is somehow based heavily on SHT? I've never even seen that movie, but I see aspects of many different futuristic / modern day aesthetics in GW stuff. It's so bizarre that so many people want to link it to SHT. It seems like an obsession with some people.
They're grunts. With flak armour and helmets and rifles. It's not SHT guys. It's sci-fi infantry. There's onyl so many ways to do it. You can't just say "Oh look, it's SHT'. Well you can ofc, but it's absurd when you do. Tedious and lazy and naïve.
Because Guard vs Nids looks very much like it, so it’s easy to then compare.
Also, what’s the H you’re using in SHT?
It was my dad's 65th on sunday, so at dinner I did some day drinking, then when I got home I decided to carry on chugging (my fatal mistake). I have no idea why I decided ST should be SHT, but I'm gonna blame it on my inebriation (also the ranty, unreasonably agitated tone too! Yes, that seems plausible )
To be honest the Imperial guard rogue trader plastic RTB07 look more like the star ship troopers than the cadians. even the color of the gear is the same. These defently pre date the film.
- Tyranids. Obviously they didn't eat all the Squats, but is them eating most of the Squats even still a thing? How do they feel about Tyranids if that is the case? I have an impression that it may still be a thing, as the emphasis on void travel (sealed uniform, intro video having them board an Imperial vessel presumably to salvage), plus the very name "League of Votann" doesn't sound like the name of an empire but rather an alliance of fleets, perhaps all that remains of the Squat race after the Tyranids consumed whatever planet holdings they had.
Has the whole 'eaten by the Tyranids' actually been written anywhere outside of the intro blurb to Ian Watson's Inquisition War? I can't recall coming across it anywhere else, and if that's the case, then I suspect they'll deal with it by just ignoring it.
- The Emperor. They clearly didn't join the Imperium proper but given their access and apparent deep knowledge of DAoT tech, how could the Emperor have possibly let them be? Much less his own designs for reacquiring such technology, he would have been hard pressed to justify not taking an aggressive stance against the Squats on behalf of Mars - surely the incarnation of the Omnissiah would not shirk the holy duty of recovering such knowledge for humanity proper.
The easy answer would be that they nominally joined the Imperium to begin with, and there would quite possibly have initially been some knowledge sharing, and then they gradually become more independent after the Heresy.
Or, they were on the Emperor's hit-list, but due to their advanced tech had been reserved as a target for the closing stages of the Crusade, when the Imperium could focus on them properly... and then the Heresy happened and took the focus off them for some time, after which an uneasy alliance of sorts let everyone just get on with doing their own thing.
I recall one of the 'Nid codex say something about Fleet /insert bigbugname eating the Demiurg worlds, but don't quote me on that as it's a bit blurry in my mind.
The tyranid eating of the Squats happened in like m39-40 or something like that. So only really the 10th-13th black crusade up to "current" cuz even BobbyG couldn't get anyone to actually agree on what year "current"even is.
They also don't all need to have been stuck in warp/time dilation hijinks. It's kinda normal for a dwarf to dig in to defend against the nids and 300yrs later come out swinging to nobody there.
I would think the lore will stay the same because it's such a famous story among GW fans. Even people who started playing in 7th know the squat meme and that they were supposedly eaten by the Nids. The squats had probably colonized more than 1 planet which is how they can still produce things, perhaps they had a planet like Mars near their homeworld that made all the weapons and they hid it from the hive fleet with some fancy cloaking technology, idk. Also there would be squats out in space on ships with a decent stockpile of weapons and presumably some knowledge on how to make them. I don't think that needs a retcon just because the race itself survived. Homeworld eaten by nids doesn't automatically = extinct.
Yeah, the Squat coreworlds are likely gone, but I doubt they were completely wiped out. Being a fleet based race ala some kind of Dwarven Craftworlds would work fine.
I would just toss old silliness aside and do a proper job with their lore (of new silliness). Humanity exists on over a million worlds, if Squats are going to be a real faction, they can't exist in one, or ten, or a hundred star systems, that just makes the whole effort sound stupid. Don't tie an anchor around your writing hand, just come up with something cool and move forward from there, they can have fought the nids the same way every other faction has.
Old lore- the imperium failed their great crusade as it was interrupted by the Horus Heresy, it is possible the squats existed in the galaxy outside of the areas the great crusade brought to compliance.
It's possible the nids at the squats, and retcon, or the nids we're thought to have eaten the squats and whatever happens happens.
Who's to say that they were cut off because of various Warp shenanigans, but the creation of the rift set them free in the same way as the birth of Slaanesh set humanity free?
But, at the same time, it ripped their territory in two, so now they're out searching for all the lost holds that they once had (and there's your Crusade mechanic as well).
Things/peoples that were thought long-since destroyed and are now back is a trope through both fantasy and Scifi.
Squats may have turned into a fleet-based race like the Black Templars. They may have mass-migrated to a new homeworld. They may have just spread out far and wide. They may have just hunkered down in the caverns near the core of their planet to avoid the nids for thousands of years.
The possibilities are endless, and I'm frankly stoked to see which way GW goes. I'm hoping the Squats disguised themselves as some kind of xenos to trade with peoples outside the Imperium, careful enough to stay just outside the attention of any true Imperial authority until now.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Who's to say that they were cut off because of various Warp shenanigans, but the creation of the rift set them free in the same way as the birth of Slaanesh set humanity free?
But, at the same time, it ripped their territory in two, so now they're out searching for all the lost holds that they once had (and there's your Crusade mechanic as well).
I like the idea that they were just out in the far reaches where the Astronomicon is very dim and thus mostly ignored (like how the Tau got skipped over for millennia) until the Tyranids came and drove them from their homes, making them a massive flotilla of refugees like Eldar or Quarians from Mass Effect
MajorWesJanson wrote: I like the idea that they were just out in the far reaches where the Astronomicon is very dim and thus mostly ignored (like how the Tau got skipped over for millennia) until the Tyranids came and drove them from their homes, making them a massive flotilla of refugees like Eldar or Quarians from Mass Effect
I'd rather they were cut-off than ignored. I don't want them being another tiny race like the Tau, where you have to go out of your way to include them because they're so insignificant compared to the rest of the races in the galaxy.
Is this "League of Votann" different than the Demiurg? Could we have a situation where we have Imperial-allied dwarves and Tau-allied dwarves?
The Demiurg are a Xenos race, separate to Squats. While (going by a recent post on Twitter by Gav Thorpe) the name was originally floated as a replacement for the original 'Squat' moniker, as they were introduced to BfG they are a Xenos race of short, lumpy-headed miners, and largely fleet based.
So yes, assuming that the Demiurg are still a going concern, the universe now contains both the human-mutant Squats, and the xenos Demiurg. From the time that the Demiurg were first introduced though, the studio were pretty firm that they would be unlikely to ever appear outside of BfG. At best, they could possibly appear in 40K as a unit of Tau auxiliaries like the Vespid, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Is this "League of Votann" different than the Demiurg? Could we have a situation where we have Imperial-allied dwarves and Tau-allied dwarves?
Demiurg look notably xenos. It would be a cool twist if the etheral/earth caste had altered squat physiology and got demiurgs, but I think most people would hate that. Better to leave them as a separate xenos race
Demiurg clearly were an attempt to redo the Squat concept, so now than the actual Squats are back it is the best to just forget that the Demiurg were ever mentioned.
Crimson wrote: Demiurg clearly were an attempt to redo the Squat concept, so now than the actual Squats are back it is the best to just forget that the Demiurg were ever mentioned.
- The Emperor. They clearly didn't join the Imperium proper but given their access and apparent deep knowledge of DAoT tech, how could the Emperor have possibly let them be? Much less his own designs for reacquiring such technology, he would have been hard pressed to justify not taking an aggressive stance against the Squats on behalf of Mars - surely the incarnation of the Omnissiah would not shirk the holy duty of recovering such knowledge for humanity proper.
If I recall, the old lore was that, similar to the mechanicus, they were something of a client state. They were too difficult to conquer and instead agreed to become a sort of associated state with the imperium. Which is also why all the mechanicus could do is seeth and politik.
As for the HH, I believe was they had their own civil war in parallel and thus were contained within themselves. Though I could be misremembering this one.
I don't see how the Demiurg could be made into the Squats, haven't there been Imperial encounters with them where they outright said they were Aliens? Or perhaps they were only told they were aliens to disguise themselves? I expect they'll just ignore the similarities, though.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Or maybe they find a way of reconciling the Demiurg fluff with the new Squat fluff.
Nah, keep them as scaly space Wolverines. No real reason there can’t be two short but bulky species.
Yeah, they'll probably never do anything with the Demiurg but there's no reason to torturously try and suggest they and the Squats are the same race, any more than there's a need to suggest humans and Eldar are the same because they're similar heights. Maybe they'll drop a line somewhere that Demiurg almost never make planetfall and hence don't make sense in 40k proper.
Demiurg probably aren't going anywhere. We had them in BFG3. They even talk, I think. It's not like they're just going to be swept under a rug, they're just going to remain a race that pops up occasionally in tau stories
Demiurg were going to be the new Squats for some time. Not in lore but in theme - dwarves in space.
However I think they, along with Kroot and a lot of other potential Xenos got side tracked when the core Tau design of mecha took off in such a big way.
They could still be developed, but I think right now Tau would do with splitting into two armies to achieve that kind of approach. Much like how splitting Genestealer Cults out of Tyranids allowed the Cult to have its own diverse model line; splitting Kroot and Xenos out of Tau would do likewise. Giving them room to grow their own army and design without the two halves swamping each other.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I don't see how the Demiurg could be made into the Squats, haven't there been Imperial encounters with them where they outright said they were Aliens? Or perhaps they were only told they were aliens to disguise themselves? I expect they'll just ignore the similarities, though.
Theres fluff that says the Squats were all eaten by Tyranids, yet here we are. Retcons happen, the fluff serves the purposes desired by the designers and not the other way around. The changes needed to make this work is relatively minor. Just because they have a few lines of dialogue in a game published by a licensee doesn't really change anything.
I would imagine there's a snowballs chance in hell of them diluting their new LoV army by creating them with a Tau aligned break off.
Demiurg could generously be called a footnote in the 40k universe, they will just continue to not be addressed outside of maybe a line of flavour somewhere.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Interesting they acknowledge Jervis mentioning in passing “Nids Ate Them”, rather querying that it’s ever been official background.
And, for the record: Jervis Johnson talking about the Squats -
Spoiler:
"I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...
I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Interesting they acknowledge Jervis mentioning in passing “Nids Ate Them”, rather querying that it’s ever been official background.
It's just one of those rumors that was taken as truth over the years. They had to address it as he was one of the main people in GW when he said it, so it held weight no matter if it got an official stamp of approval or not.
A decade after Warhammer 40,000’s second edition, Battlefleet Gothic – a naval game of spacebound fleets – introduced the Demiurg, a mysterious group of void-faring miners and traders. Technologically-advanced industrialists with a grudge against Orks, a number of Demiurg brotherhoods aligned themselves with the T’au Empire, lending their powerful ships to the Air Caste fleets.
Were these the Leagues sneaking back into the setting, or a new alien species filling a similar role? We’re still not sure, but the modern edition of Necromunda brought fresh hope for fans of futuristic facial hair. At the end of the ‘10s, the underhive skirmish game introduced two new characters you could add to your gang – and though their design had once again evolved, everyone knew what we were looking at.
and interesting factoid at the bottom:
**** The Book of Judgement confirmed that Squat prospectors are still around, and buying energy drills from Demiurg.
So clearly some relationship between them there, though there is also clearly some distinction between them as well.
I would invading there's a snowballs chance in hell of them diluting their new LoV army by creating them with a Tau aligned break off.
lol, "diluting"? 80% of the factions in the game are a spinoff of another faction. Chaos anything is a spinoff of an Imperial faction (it didn't take very long for them to introduce Chaos Knights right on the heels of Imperial Knights, so much for that), all the Imperial factions are a spinoff from another Imperial faction basically, then theres Drukhari and Harlequins from Aeldari, Genestealer Cults from Tyranids, etc.
I'm more amused by the 'slightly different scale' for modern AT and AI.
The first major evolutionary step came in Titan Legions, a game of massive battles using tiny models at the Epic scale – just 6mm! Many of the larger units for the modern game of Warhammer 40,000 have their origins here, including all those lovely Titans and Knights. It also went on to inspire modern games like Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis, though these are at a slightly different scale.
Slightly disappointed at the lack of more teaser art/model glimpses. But pleased with the self-awareness here, and the idea of expanding the game/setting rather than just doing the same set of books over (or PA again)
ImAGeek wrote: I like how people have still been voting in the poll now we know the answer for sure haha. The ‘no’ percentage has been creeping up.
There's been a couple posts to the effect of 'I still don't believe it' dotted around the various threads. Which would be real commitment to a bit at this point.
ImAGeek wrote: I like how people have still been voting in the poll now we know the answer for sure haha. The ‘no’ percentage has been creeping up.
There's been a couple posts to the effect of 'I still don't believe it' dotted around the various threads. Which would be real commitment to a bit at this point.
There were similar thoughts when plastic SoB were coming out. After so long waiting, there was a sizable minority who were going to deny until they had product in hand.
What remains on the old "Never gonna get it list but now it's here"? We have squats, plastic (mini) Thunderhawk, Zoat, plastic deffkoptas, Eldar Corsairs, a couple of others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Wheat else could be coming? Exodites? Chaos militia? (seems I remember something credible on the recent legit rumour list). Korks??? Gotta be more that people have been wishlisting since forever.
/Edit - Dark Future perchance? (kinda maybe with the new Necro box).
The new background for the Leagues of Votann builds off the old lore in interesting ways – including how they interact with their ancestors.
Perhaps their "ancestors" are more literal this time around, as actual ghosts on the battlefield? We've seen advanced civilizations weaponize the dead before, with the Eldars' infinity circuits.
Exodites are pretty much the last thing on the list now far as faction go. Depends if necro enforcers count as Arbites.
Hmm, perhaps Enslavers too.
As for the Leagues and the Great Crusade, they a stable enough offshoot from baseline human for the Imperium. No reason they weren't included, but left when things started getting weird with the rise of the Imperial Cult.
Tau aux have quite a few things mentioned in a couple of sources that haven't made their way to the table top. Nicassar, Tarrelians etc
Demiurg obviously!
A decade after Warhammer 40,000’s second edition, Battlefleet Gothic – a naval game of spacebound fleets – introduced the Demiurg, a mysterious group of void-faring miners and traders. Technologically-advanced industrialists with a grudge against Orks, a number of Demiurg brotherhoods aligned themselves with the T’au Empire, lending their powerful ships to the Air Caste fleets.
Were these the Leagues sneaking back into the setting, or a new alien species filling a similar role? We’re still not sure, but the modern edition of Necromunda brought fresh hope for fans of futuristic facial hair. At the end of the ‘10s, the underhive skirmish game introduced two new characters you could add to your gang – and though their design had once again evolved, everyone knew what we were looking at.
and interesting factoid at the bottom:
**** The Book of Judgement confirmed that Squat prospectors are still around, and buying energy drills from Demiurg.
So clearly some relationship between them there, though there is also clearly some distinction between them as well.
I would invading there's a snowballs chance in hell of them diluting their new LoV army by creating them with a Tau aligned break off.
lol, "diluting"? 80% of the factions in the game are a spinoff of another faction. Chaos anything is a spinoff of an Imperial faction (it didn't take very long for them to introduce Chaos Knights right on the heels of Imperial Knights, so much for that), all the Imperial factions are a spinoff from another Imperial faction basically, then theres Drukhari and Harlequins from Aeldari, Genestealer Cults from Tyranids, etc.
Diluting in the sense of the marketing push and fleshing out of the faction.
They are going to concentrate on what makes Squats Squats, certainly for the first few releases until their basic range is fleshed out.
JWBS wrote: What remains on the old "Never gonna get it list but now it's here"? We have squats, plastic (mini) Thunderhawk, Zoat, plastic deffkoptas, Eldar Corsairs, a couple of others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Wheat else could be coming? Exodites? Chaos militia? (seems I remember something credible on the recent legit rumour list). Korks??? Gotta be more that people have been wishlisting since forever.
/Edit - Dark Future perchance? (kinda maybe with the new Necro box).
An actual, proper, full-fledged Inquisition codex!
It sounds as if they're going to be an evolution of their original lore rather than something entirely new, so It'll be interesting to see what "twists" they take. If the Tyranids nearly wiping them out is still part of their lore (which It seems it will be), then it would be interesting to see how that's affected them.
I'd like to see something like a situation where by, after originally being abandoned by the Eldar against the Orks, and the second time by the Imperium against the Tyranids, the surviving strongholds become more paranoid and isolated, now trusting no one but themselves and adopting a "No Half Measures" approach to things to avoid that happening again. The whole "High-tech, Stoic, Hardy, Master-craftsmen and builders" side of the Dwarf theming but taken to an extreme level in combination with the DAoT aspect and its esoteric technology; now overpreparing to absurd levels after nearly having their society entirely wiped out, building over-the-top fortress worlds and space stations, megastructures, superweapons alongside all manner of advanced weaponry etc with an overall industrialized militarized society as an evolution of the whole giant warmachines theming they had before with the colossus, land-trains, Airships etc. Mass-producing high-tech warmachines on a huge scale in order to handle anything that comes after them.
Sort of a combination between the Dwarf archetype, the Dark Angel's "hoarding forbidden technology" side, and Cadia.
Yeah - I wonder if they'll do something similar to Fyreslayers & Kharadron Overlords in AoS...
Fyreslayers and Overlords is more of a philosophical/religious ideology mismatch rather than two distinctive races.
I'd be disappointed if Demiurg ended up being something like that, given that art has portrayed them as looking noticeably "alien" when it comes to their facial features.
The new background for the Leagues of Votann builds off the old lore in interesting ways – including how they interact with their ancestors.
Perhaps their "ancestors" are more literal this time around, as actual ghosts on the battlefield? We've seen advanced civilizations weaponize the dead before, with the Eldars' infinity circuits.
Yeah - I wonder if they'll do something similar to Fyreslayers & Kharadron Overlords in AoS...
Fyreslayers and Overlords is more of a philosophical/religious ideology mismatch rather than two distinctive races.
I'd be disappointed if Demiurg ended up being something like that, given that art has portrayed them as looking noticeably "alien" when it comes to their facial features.
Yes I think they sound like they are distinct from each other - Demiurg obviously have different tech to squats. It gives the setting more depth if there are two different races . Means Demiurg can appear later as something else either as part of the Tau release or through Killteam.
On the Ancestors front - someone on Bolter and Chainsword suggested the Ancestors being AI's which I like the sound of. Would make their automatia different from Eldar/Imperium forces.
The new background for the Leagues of Votann builds off the old lore in interesting ways – including how they interact with their ancestors.
Perhaps their "ancestors" are more literal this time around, as actual ghosts on the battlefield? We've seen advanced civilizations weaponize the dead before, with the Eldars' infinity circuits.
Perhaps the "Extremely heretical technology" mentioned is to do with this; creating AI facsimiles of their ancestors in machine recreations of a typical squat body.
There is a rumour engine picture of a fully mechanical leg that's different from the mechanical foot we've seen so far:
Yeah - I wonder if they'll do something similar to Fyreslayers & Kharadron Overlords in AoS...
Fyreslayers and Overlords is more of a philosophical/religious ideology mismatch rather than two distinctive races.
I'd be disappointed if Demiurg ended up being something like that, given that art has portrayed them as looking noticeably "alien" when it comes to their facial features.
Yes I think they sound like they are distinct from each other - Demiurg obviously have different tech to squats. It gives the setting more depth if there are two different races . Means Demiurg can appear later as something else either as part of the Tau release or through Killteam.
On the Ancestors front - someone on Bolter and Chainsword suggested the Ancestors being AI's which I like the sound of. Would make their automatia different from Eldar/Imperium forces.
Yeah, the BFG fluff indicates that the Demiurg are the masters of ion weapon tech; T’au ship-grade ion cannon are pulsed derivatives of Demiurg continuous wave ion beam weapons. If you’ve ever seen a later season Stargate space battle, think like that. The LoV on the other hand are humans with the serial numbers filed off; they used to have lasguns and bolters etc. so I doubt that they will stray too far from that. Though as the article reported, buying xenotech because it does a given job better is exactly the sort of practicality I’d expect from them.
It would be fun to me if the Demiurg were an offshoot of the LoV, sort of twisted by the nasty energy that they unleash. Not Chaos energy, but radioactive type energy, that has devolved them.
Or pull an old Star Trek to Next Generation storyline and the Demiurg used to look like the LoV, but there was an internal matter and this is how we look now.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: No, wait, Living Ancestors were the Psykers, right? And Hearthguard was the egg-shaped ones. Dangit.
In 2nd ed, at least - the Psykers were Ancestor Lords, and Hearthguard were just veterans. They came with carapace armour as standard, but could be upgraded to exo-armour (the egg suit).
I think it's interesting that they're still called "Leagues" as the new article mentions a group of strongholds (mining colonies) were called a League, which sort of implies they still have control of planets.
I mean they'd kind of have to have words worth of population to even count as having an army in the 40K setting.
I would wager its just going to be one of those things that they've "always been there" lore wise just not developed upon. Which is perfectly possible when you consider how insanely vast the Imperium is. Whole grand wars can be won and lost and no one on the other side of a sector, let alone the galaxy, need never know.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I think it's interesting that they're still called "Leagues" as the new article mentions a group of strongholds (mining colonies) were called a League, which sort of implies they still have control of planets.
Strongly suspect the following: Tyranids invade > Strongholds send out their best to drive them off > overwhelming numbers make this futile > retreat to the holds and weld themselves in with their power supplies and hydroponics > Ancestors mask their presence from the Hive Mind (possibly a Noble Sacrifice too) > Tyranids consume everything outside the Strongholds and leave > survivors emerge onto their brand new barren, airless world > other leagues follow suit, some don’t even bother fighting and just bottle up before the ‘nids even arrive > LoV have to refactor their entire society and figure out what to do next > now we get to find out.
JWBS wrote: What remains on the old "Never gonna get it list but now it's here"? We have squats, plastic (mini) Thunderhawk, Zoat, plastic deffkoptas, Eldar Corsairs, a couple of others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Wheat else could be coming? Exodites? Chaos militia? (seems I remember something credible on the recent legit rumour list). Korks??? Gotta be more that people have been wishlisting since forever.
/Edit - Dark Future perchance? (kinda maybe with the new Necro box).
In the 8th Codex for Eldar, they specifically mention a redacted faction of Slaneeshi Eldar. Chaos Eldar? What about Chaos Sisters of Battle, or Chaos Tau. Those could all be options. Maybe the Return of the Old Ones?
Mentlegen324 wrote: I think it's interesting that they're still called "Leagues" as the new article mentions a group of strongholds (mining colonies) were called a League, which sort of implies they still have control of planets.
Strongly suspect the following: Tyranids invade > Strongholds send out their best to drive them off > overwhelming numbers make this futile > retreat to the holds and weld themselves in with their power supplies and hydroponics > Ancestors mask their presence from the Hive Mind (possibly a Noble Sacrifice too) > Tyranids consume everything outside the Strongholds and leave > survivors emerge onto their brand new barren, airless world > other leagues follow suit, some don’t even bother fighting and just bottle up before the ‘nids even arrive > LoV have to refactor their entire society and figure out what to do next > now we get to find out.
Having them show up again on the planets they were already on but had just went completely unnoticed by the both the Tyranids (I'm not too knowledgeable about the specifics of them, but don't they have a way to detect life even underground?) and the Imperium would be a bit odd, I think.
Would be interesting if their survival comes down to some sort of DAoT device, maybe something that transported one of the Leagues elsewhere in the galaxy as a last resort after they realized the other Leagues just weren't surviving the Tyranids and the Imperium wasn't coming to help.
Theophony wrote: It would be fun to me if the Demiurg were an offshoot of the LoV, sort of twisted by the nasty energy that they unleash. Not Chaos energy, but radioactive type energy, that has devolved them.
Or pull an old Star Trek to Next Generation storyline and the Demiurg used to look like the LoV, but there was an internal matter and this is how we look now.
Maybe the Demiurge are the Men of Iron in disguise. The men of iron and the squats both have origins that tie back to old earth and the initial exploration and colonization of the galaxy. Maybe this common history and desire to avoid imperial entanglements make them erstwhile allies, and explain some commonality in their tech.
Hrud are specifically NOT ratmen, as evidenced by more modern artwork than a single group photo in 3rd ed
yeah, and the latest artwork for squats was also different from what was there in 2nd/3rd and what we got now
now that we have got non-human but human looking like squats back with different technology level and different design, acting like "Hrud cannot be Space Skaven because of an artwork shown between" is kind of strange, as by this the squat that was shown is impossible too (does not follow any of the latest artworks seen before the reveal and does not follow the old fluff, not like GW has shown that they changed their mind what those should be over time)
I would be interested in them putting together lore where the Demiurg were Squats but something bizarre had happened to them which had evolved them into something different and now they are starting to be reconciled.
Then again I'm also happy for them to be separate races
I'm interested in playstyle, it would be cool for them to have some kind of entrenching mechanic and presumably a lot of artillery as well as the dirigibles.
I assume real concrete stuff is still a month or two away. It sounds like the trikes and biker stuff is not coming back.
Overread wrote: I mean they'd kind of have to have words worth of population to even count as having an army in the 40K setting.
Well the Dark Eldar started out as being one single city and they were a playable faction. This was retconned a decade later into being dyson sphere sized or whatever plus they respawn like in a video game.
It's also not necessary to have worlds to have worlds' worth of population. You could cram the galactic populations of all major sci-fi settings combined into orbital habitats around Sol with room to spare.
Yeah - I wonder if they'll do something similar to Fyreslayers & Kharadron Overlords in AoS...
Fyreslayers and Overlords is more of a philosophical/religious ideology mismatch rather than two distinctive races.
I'd be disappointed if Demiurg ended up being something like that, given that art has portrayed them as looking noticeably "alien" when it comes to their facial features.
Theres no official published art of the Demiurg. Theres one, maybe two, pieces of concept art that came out of Jes Goodwin or whomevers notebook that people have seen at Games Days/Warhammer Fests, etc. over the years but by virtue of it being a concept sketch in his personal notebook, which includes lots of other art pieces for things which either don't exist or are counter to canon, it is decidedly non-canonical and likely also "unofficial" otherwise one would assume that it would have been under NDA and thus not showable.
Yes I think they sound like they are distinct from each other - Demiurg obviously have different tech to squats. It gives the setting more depth if there are two different races . Means Demiurg can appear later as something else either as part of the Tau release or through Killteam.
Distinct != alien. Americans and Russians are distinct from each other and have different technology, yet we are both human. In 40k terms Drukhari, Harlequins, Exodites, and Craftworlds likewise have distinct tech, yet all are Aeldari. Its entirely possible for the Demiurg to be the Exodites to the Leagues of Votanns Craftworlds (or whatever the appropriate analogy there is), the Demiurg being spacefaring star-miners or whatever it is they are have developed highly specialized tech that are prized in certain applications by the more terrestrial Leagues of Votann. Worth pointing out that Demiurg are supposedly big on ion and fusion tech and assisted the Tau with the design/manufacture of them, the Squats gun design loosely references the design language and geometry of both (which is probably why people are finding the model to be so Tau-like).
Mentlegen324 wrote: I think it's interesting that they're still called "Leagues" as the new article mentions a group of strongholds (mining colonies) were called a League, which sort of implies they still have control of planets.
Strongly suspect the following: Tyranids invade > Strongholds send out their best to drive them off > overwhelming numbers make this futile > retreat to the holds and weld themselves in with their power supplies and hydroponics > Ancestors mask their presence from the Hive Mind (possibly a Noble Sacrifice too) > Tyranids consume everything outside the Strongholds and leave > survivors emerge onto their brand new barren, airless world > other leagues follow suit, some don’t even bother fighting and just bottle up before the ‘nids even arrive > LoV have to refactor their entire society and figure out what to do next > now we get to find out.
Seems unnecessarily complicated. Could be as simple as - Tyranids show up, devour a bunch of squat worlds, shadow in the warp cuts the remainder off from communication (maybe even burns out all the astropaths present as well) a number of mining colonies, etc. go unnoticed by the hive mind due to low population numbers and subterranean presence of the inhabitants/low apparent biomass from orbit, etc. Tyranids leave, holds slowly reestablish contact with eachother but are on the fringes of imperial space and have no telepaths with which to reestablish contact with the Imperium, and so develop independently for a few hundred/thousand years until contact is reestablished.
JWBS wrote: What remains on the old "Never gonna get it list but now it's here"? We have squats, plastic (mini) Thunderhawk, Zoat, plastic deffkoptas, Eldar Corsairs, a couple of others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Wheat else could be coming? Exodites? Chaos militia? (seems I remember something credible on the recent legit rumour list). Korks??? Gotta be more that people have been wishlisting since forever.
/Edit - Dark Future perchance? (kinda maybe with the new Necro box).
In the 8th Codex for Eldar, they specifically mention a redacted faction of Slaneeshi Eldar. Chaos Eldar? What about Chaos Sisters of Battle, or Chaos Tau. Those could all be options. Maybe the Return of the Old Ones?
In the past these were referred to as Crone World Eldar.
Seems unnecessarily complicated. Could be as simple as - Tyranids show up, devour a bunch of squat worlds, shadow in the warp cuts the remainder off from communication (maybe even burns out all the astropaths present as well) a number of mining colonies, etc. go unnoticed by the hive mind due to low population numbers and subterranean presence of the inhabitants/low apparent biomass from orbit, etc. Tyranids leave, holds slowly reestablish contact with eachother but are on the fringes of imperial space and have no telepaths with which to reestablish contact with the Imperium, and so develop independently for a few hundred/thousand years until contact is reestablished.
I was under the impression that Tyranids tend not to just ignore a world (outside of some Necron worlds), and that being underground wouldn't help? They take everything, even down to certain minerals and the atmosphere, I don't see any underground colonies big enough to support life wouldn't be able to be found.
Someone else posted the concept of living ancestors shielding survivors from the hive mind. Equally some magical null-warp tech could be used for the same purpose.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Or maybe they find a way of reconciling the Demiurg fluff with the new Squat fluff.
Nah, keep them as scaly space Wolverines. No real reason there can’t be two short but bulky species.
Yeah, they'll probably never do anything with the Demiurg but there's no reason to torturously try and suggest they and the Squats are the same race, any more than there's a need to suggest humans and Eldar are the same because they're similar heights. Maybe they'll drop a line somewhere that Demiurg almost never make planetfall and hence don't make sense in 40k proper.
Jervis Johnson: Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
Seems unnecessarily complicated. Could be as simple as - Tyranids show up, devour a bunch of squat worlds, shadow in the warp cuts the remainder off from communication (maybe even burns out all the astropaths present as well) a number of mining colonies, etc. go unnoticed by the hive mind due to low population numbers and subterranean presence of the inhabitants/low apparent biomass from orbit, etc. Tyranids leave, holds slowly reestablish contact with eachother but are on the fringes of imperial space and have no telepaths with which to reestablish contact with the Imperium, and so develop independently for a few hundred/thousand years until contact is reestablished.
I was under the impression that Tyranids tend not to just ignore a world (outside of some Necron worlds), and that being underground wouldn't help? They take everything, even down to certain minerals and the atmosphere, I don't see any underground colonies big enough to support life wouldn't be able to be found.
Not sure, but from what I recall Tyranids are not "omniscient" with regards to stellar cartography, I.E. they don't know the location of every planet and star and can/will overlook entire systems even as they consume all the other systems surrounding it.
Flinty wrote: Someone else posted the concept of living ancestors shielding survivors from the hive mind. Equally some magical null-warp tech could be used for the same purpose.
Lving Ancestors were powerful Psykers, the Hive Mind Shadow in the warp severely affects Psykers to the point communication and abilities become much, much more difficult. I don't see how using psychic abilities to hide from a race that blocks psychic abilities on a large scale could work, especially when it's something that affects races like the Eldar much more than others.
Or the homeworlds were all devoured like an Olive, pips included. Nothing survived that. Except the ones already engaged in outworld activities like exploring space hulks etc.
JWBS wrote: What remains on the old "Never gonna get it list but now it's here"? We have squats, plastic (mini) Thunderhawk, Zoat, plastic deffkoptas, Eldar Corsairs, a couple of others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Wheat else could be coming? Exodites? Chaos militia? (seems I remember something credible on the recent legit rumour list). Korks??? Gotta be more that people have been wishlisting since forever.
/Edit - Dark Future perchance? (kinda maybe with the new Necro box).
In the 8th Codex for Eldar, they specifically mention a redacted faction of Slaneeshi Eldar. Chaos Eldar? What about Chaos Sisters of Battle, or Chaos Tau. Those could all be options. Maybe the Return of the Old Ones?
In the past these were referred to as Crone World Eldar.
"Of all the servants of Chaos there are few as truly damned as the Eldar Chaos Champions, nor any as utterly at the mercy of their Chaos masters. They are lost to the Eldar race, unacknowledged and forever forgotten by their kinfolk, their souls eternally barred from peace."
I think it would be really cool to make a unit with shields, like those HH marines with them. That would make them somewhat unique to 40K and give them that Dwarf-vibe.
There use to be..... in the dark ages..... a really cool thread about Varingyr on Warseer. It was a veritable mine of information on a possible way to re-brand and build the squat line. It was a fun read to see how so many folks interpreted it.
I assume real concrete stuff is still a month or two away. It sounds like the trikes and biker stuff is not coming back.
I expect we'll see bikes. Many of the humanoid factions have them in one form or another. But I also expect that they'll look different than they did in the past.
I assume real concrete stuff is still a month or two away. It sounds like the trikes and biker stuff is not coming back.
I expect we'll see bikes. Many of the humanoid factions have them in one form or another. But I also expect that they'll look different than they did in the past.
Give them burrower bikes with drills on the front that can move through breachable terrain (but can't fly up it vertically)!
The new background for the Leagues of Votann builds off the old lore in interesting ways – including how they interact with their ancestors.
Perhaps their "ancestors" are more literal this time around, as actual ghosts on the battlefield? We've seen advanced civilizations weaponize the dead before, with the Eldars' infinity circuits.
Perhaps the "Extremely heretical technology" mentioned is to do with this; creating AI facsimiles of their ancestors in machine recreations of a typical squat body.
There is a rumour engine picture of a fully mechanical leg that's different from the mechanical foot we've seen so far:
I guess this is the new exo armour.
I’m starting to be afraid the metal hobbit feet are going to be a thing.
The new background for the Leagues of Votann builds off the old lore in interesting ways – including how they interact with their ancestors.
Perhaps their "ancestors" are more literal this time around, as actual ghosts on the battlefield? We've seen advanced civilizations weaponize the dead before, with the Eldars' infinity circuits.
Perhaps the "Extremely heretical technology" mentioned is to do with this; creating AI facsimiles of their ancestors in machine recreations of a typical squat body.
There is a rumour engine picture of a fully mechanical leg that's different from the mechanical foot we've seen so far:
I guess this is the new exo armour.
I’m starting to be afraid the metal hobbit feet are going to be a thing.
I don't think this is the case as we can see from this image that I have illuminated more he has normal feet, maybe they are just prostheses or there is another reason,maybe a lot of their units have AIs integrated into them or their weapons so would the greater stability / accuracy of their weapons also make sense
I don't think this is the case as we can see from this image that I have illuminated more he has normal feet, maybe they are just prostheses or there is another reason,maybe a lot of their units have AIs integrated into them or their weapons so would the greater stability / accuracy of their weapons also make sense
Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.
What if squats can be allies to both imperium and tau? GW would love to have an army that encourages you to include units from another faction, but unless you’re in the same race, 40k factions typically hate everyone else
Mentlegen324 wrote: Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.
Well, they did lose their worlds to the Tyranids, so it would make sense that they are space nomads now.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.
Well, they did lose their worlds to the Tyranids, so it would make sense that they are space nomads now.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.
Well, they did lose their worlds to the Tyranids, so it would make sense that they are space nomads now.
Counter point.
No 40K army isn’t spacefaring,
True, but I mean like they have no planet to call home, they just hang out in their ships and go around trading and mining asteroids.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.
Well, they did lose their worlds to the Tyranids, so it would make sense that they are space nomads now.
Counter point.
No 40K army isn’t spacefaring,
True, but I mean like they have no planet to call home, they just hang out in their ships and go around trading and mining asteroids.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.
Well, they did lose their worlds to the Tyranids, so it would make sense that they are space nomads now.
Counter point.
No 40K army isn’t spacefaring,
Daemons aren't spacefaring, they are warpfaring and teleport directly onto the worlds they invade.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.
Well, they did lose their worlds to the Tyranids, so it would make sense that they are space nomads now.
Counter point.
No 40K army isn’t spacefaring,
This is part of why it seems odd to me, because obviously a new full army that was shown arriving in a ship in their reveal video is going to be a Starfaring race. It seems like something that is completely unneccesary to mention if there isn't a specific reason for it.
Still, it's just a single word so could just be looking into it too much.
I'd much prefer them to still have worlds though, there are already 2 nearly entirely Space-based armies, and I suppose to some extent the Kharadron Overlords are ship-based in AoS.
“Nids Ate Them” is not, and has never been, canon.
This is actually why I’m hype for this. Actual New Background. The article the other day specifically refers to Jervis saying it in passing - which means it was never a canonical thing. Even in 40K where there kind of isn’t a canon, because it all is and none of it is at the same time, as fundamentally it’s a sandbox universe with a bunch of folks (the studio et al) plying their trade as a Boatman.
Just because their boat will take you from A to B, doesn’t mean it’s always the same journey, let alone the only journey.
“Nids Ate Them” is not, and has never been, canon.
This is actually why I’m hype for this. Actual New Background. The article the other day specifically refers to Jervis saying it in passing - which means it was never a canonical thing. Even in 40K where there kind of isn’t a canon, because it all is and none of it is at the same time, as fundamentally it’s a sandbox universe with a bunch of folks (the studio et al) plying their trade as a Boatman.
Just because their boat will take you from A to B, doesn’t mean it’s always the same journey, let alone the only journey.
Did…..did I just get oddly profound?
Huh, fair enough.
We'll see what they'll do with it then.
I hope they'll reveal it soon; they shouldn't just drop something like that and then leave us hanging. That's just impolite.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.
Well, they did lose their worlds to the Tyranids, so it would make sense that they are space nomads now.
Counter point.
No 40K army isn’t spacefaring,
True, but I mean like they have no planet to call home, they just hang out in their ships and go around trading and mining asteroids.
So, Craftworlds 2.0?
Maybe less floating continents and more flotillas ala Mass Effect's Quarians.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.
Well, they did lose their worlds to the Tyranids, so it would make sense that they are space nomads now.
Counter point.
No 40K army isn’t spacefaring,
True, but I mean like they have no planet to call home, they just hang out in their ships and go around trading and mining asteroids.
So, Craftworlds 2.0?
Maybe less floating continents and more flotillas ala Mass Effect's Quarians.
Yeah, something like that. Maybe with a large class of capital ship or space station that passes as a major city / squat hold.
“Nids Ate Them” is not, and has never been, canon.
This is actually why I’m hype for this. Actual New Background. The article the other day specifically refers to Jervis saying it in passing - which means it was never a canonical thing. Even in 40K where there kind of isn’t a canon, because it all is and none of it is at the same time, as fundamentally it’s a sandbox universe with a bunch of folks (the studio et al) plying their trade as a Boatman.
I know that the original quote for it was more of a joke, but whether it was Tyranids or not it's definitely still seems canon that they had a lot of worlds, they lost them all for some reason and were considered pretty much extinct by the Imperium.
“Nids Ate Them” is not, and has never been, canon.
This is actually why I’m hype for this. Actual New Background. The article the other day specifically refers to Jervis saying it in passing - which means it was never a canonical thing. Even in 40K where there kind of isn’t a canon, because it all is and none of it is at the same time, as fundamentally it’s a sandbox universe with a bunch of folks (the studio et al) plying their trade as a Boatman.
I know that the original quote for it was more of a joke, but whether it was Tyranids or not it's definitely still seems canon that they had a lot of worlds, they lost them all for some reason and were considered pretty much extinct by the Imperium.
Thinking about it, they don't need to retcon anything, or have them be fleet based. Just have this be a League that at some point decided to head to the Galactic core and now due to the Great Rift are having to venture out for some reason.
It's a vast unexplored region of space, full of different phenomena that makes it hazardous and hard to navigate so it's a good place for them to go undetected, with all sorts of different resources that they could use to build up a relatively small but well defended area.
The encounter with the Squat vessel mentioned in Psychic Awakening happened on the periphery of the galactic core....and the Demiurg are active in some of the resource-rich areas coincidentally.
Im still holding out hope that the Demiurg turn out to be the Duergar to the Votanns Dwarves (figuratively speaking, I imagine the Demiurg, if they are a distinct sub-faction of Squats, to just have a different philosophy and slightly different tech-base).
“Nids Ate Them” is not, and has never been, canon.
Before that Jervis said in Citadel Journal that most squats had been subsumed by the IoM and fought in IG regiments now (so you could proxy them as guardsmen) or else had become renegades (so you could proxy them as orks, which was oddly fitting).
Mentlegen324 wrote: Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.
Well, they did lose their worlds to the Tyranids, so it would make sense that they are space nomads now.
Counter point.
No 40K army isn’t spacefaring,
True, but I mean like they have no planet to call home, they just hang out in their ships and go around trading and mining asteroids.
So, Craftworlds 2.0?
Maybe less floating continents and more flotillas ala Mass Effect's Quarians.
Yeah, something like that. Maybe with a large class of capital ship or space station that passes as a major city / squat hold.
The origins of the Phalanx were never really given besides being built during the DAoT and then by Dorn. Would be a cool tie in if squats had some similar hold-ships...
chaos0xomega wrote: Im still holding out hope that the Demiurg turn out to be the Duergar to the Votanns Dwarves (figuratively speaking, I imagine the Demiurg, if they are a distinct sub-faction of Squats, to just have a different philosophy and slightly different tech-base).
Yeah, that’s where I’m hoping they go with it too; the fact that they mention the Demiurg in the Squat history article makes me think that they’re at least considering that, otherwise they could have just skipped right past them and not mentioned it.
why should there be chaos squads, one new army is a lot to do so i dont think there will be a chaos variant. you always can play them as chaos cultist.
In my opinion you're all too serious about that comment. You should be happy instead that we can finally get "elfling walks into a dwarf thread" kind of jokes in 40k.
GaroRobe wrote: What if squats can be allies to both imperium and tau? GW would love to have an army that encourages you to include units from another faction, but unless you’re in the same race, 40k factions typically hate everyone else
And that's why we can mix primaris tanks/transports in squatmarine armies and vice versa-- Oh wait. I'd say it's completely opposite, 40K team has insane allergy to selling units, if you had say generic gravis techmarine or canoness in walker they would sell tons of models of both special characters for conversions. They left that money on table. AoS does generic version of almost every special character, in 40K, no thunder hammer for primaris characters, no flying pulpit for other SoB formations, good tank commanders are ultramarines/cadians only, GSC lost access to Rhinos and a lot of IG vehicles, ditto for Admech (what happened to them being able to take all SM and IG vehicles?), etc, etc...
I know that the original quote for it was more of a joke, but whether it was Tyranids or not it's definitely still seems canon that they had a lot of worlds, they lost them all for some reason and were considered pretty much extinct by the Imperium.
The name might be telling then... It's not "The 1000 Leagues"... its just one league (possibly). What happened to the rest?
It could be they go with the Tyranids wiping most of them out officially, or any number of things. They might be like the Tau now with their little corner of the galaxy.
It could be an interesting codex if it tries to fill in lots of different blanks and question marks about things that have happened or been added since.
I assume real concrete stuff is still a month or two away. It sounds like the trikes and biker stuff is not coming back.
I expect we'll see bikes. Many of the humanoid factions have them in one form or another. But I also expect that they'll look different than they did in the past.
I feel like they might have something along those lines, but it would need to be made a bit more unique. Normal Bikes? Space Marines have several and Genestealer Cult has some already. Jetbikes? Eldar and Custodians have those. Tau already have plenty of anti-grav as their theming. I can't see it being either of those, really.
Maybe some form of high-tech monowheel? That's not been done already unless you count the Skaven Doomwheel. I have no idea what they could do for trikes as a replacement though.
I feel like they might have something along those lines, but it would need to be made a bit more unique. Normal Bikes? Space Marines have several and Genestealer Cult has some already. Jetbikes? Eldar and Custodians have those. Tau already have plenty of anti-grav as their theming. I can't see it being either of those, really.
Maybe some form of high-tech monowheel? That's not been done already unless you count the Skaven Doomwheel. I have no idea what they could do for trikes as a replacement though.
I think if they stray too far from known and accepted "dwarf" archetypes people will have trouble accepting them... but it'll have to be with a modern/sci-fi/technological twist. While I don't think they are going for fantasy dwarves in space, there is an aesthetic they might try for. So that someone could look at them as say "those are like the space dwarves" and people will still nod and say "Ok, that makes sense".
The teasers we've seen might fit that. It's got a dwarf kinda guy with a beard... the voice fits a dwarf stereotype... short and sturdy looking... well armored and technological... ones got a pickaxe (not high-tech but something a miner/digger/dwarf would have)... they're salvaging/scrapping and using their tech.
They also can't stray too far from what is known to 40k... so maybe no flying pods ala Dr. Robotnik... but I wouldn't rule out bikes. It would just have to look distinct. It would fit with the history too... though I don't think we'll see the fat biker with his belly hanging out wearing leather and reflective glasses for the guilds. Maybe a guild army with impressive armor and tech with like 2-5 guys on hover bikes and the rest of the army is high tech robots.
They need Tachikomas... Advanced AI, robust non-hover construction for use on heavy gravity worlds, mulit-purpose with flexible weapon loadouts, ridden like bikes.
Tau don't seem to be getting them, so someone should
When I think about how GW could keep bikes for Squats without revisiting the biker gang with Harleys look I think the speederbike from Solo has the right proportions:
Now that's Star Wars styled, but the really front heavy look could easily be made to resemble a steam engine and evoke a more classic industrial dwarf theme. It's not the kind of look you would expect from a biker gang and helps get away from that image, but it's still a bike and you could easily write background for it as a repurposed industrial tug or tow.
A trike equivalent could be the same with a side platform with a crane mount that in its militarized version then carries a heavy weapon instead.
Just because a couple other factions recognize and thus utilize the simple genius of the wheel, doesnt mean squats cant use something that they are already known for.
Ans has already been stayed a few times in this thread, it would be nice to see the stunties get a powerboard to go with the only known bit of art for them in RT.
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