Mentlegen324 wrote:
Something I've not seen anyone mention - the start of the new article refers to them as "bearded starfarers", doesn't that sort of imply they're going to be ship-based? It could just be because of the video having them on ships I suppose.

They could have loads of things, space stations, ringworlds, dyson spheres, asteroid fortresses and probably have claimed at least a few isolated planets and moons for themselves. They likely have star fortresses, large vessels in the vain of Eldar craftworlds or the Phalanx and they might even have access to a Blackstone Fortress or two. There are endless possibilities, especially in a Galaxy with hundreds of millions of planets, moons and other astronomical phenomena. Heck, who knows? They might have some limited access to a forgotten or isolated part of the Webway!

 Geifer wrote:
I think the speederbike from Solo has the right proportions:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/C-PH_patrol_speeder_bike

What about Reys speeder bike:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Rey%27s_speeder

More rounded but still bulky looking. Maybe a little closer to the teaser models armor/appearance?

 GaroRobe wrote:

 Argive wrote:
So we get plastic squats before we get plastic phoenix lords?

Sounds like aprils fools..

As mentioned, we have two plastic PL at the moment. Though, we did get plastic GSC way before Jain Zarr was released

GSC had plastic models (Stealers and hybrids) even before the first incarnation of Jain Zar (and any plastic Eldar models btw).

 Togusa wrote:

They could have loads of things...

My guess is they started with White Dwarf #111 and picked out the cool stuff... and threw out the stuff that didn't work. Using the name "League" shows at least some sort of connection to that history.... but everything about the teaser model shows they are willing to add loads of new stuff. The next reveals will tell a lot!

 Geifer wrote:

Now that's Star Wars styled, but the really front heavy look could easily be made to resemble a steam engine and evoke a more classic industrial dwarf theme.

I think they'd need to be careful about that. Steampunk dwarves are "advanced" tech in a fantasy world. To fit the same paradigm, space dwarves would need to be more hard sci fi in terms of look and feel (which seems to be the case in what they're doing.

I hope tech-priest grombrindal gets rules!

 Wiz Warrior wrote:
Just because a couple other factions recognize and thus utilize the simple genius of the wheel, doesnt mean squats cant use something that they are already known for.

On that note, it remains to be seen if Squats will be big on the simple genius of the wheel. My impression is that GW's idea of technological advancement and Dark Age of Technology tech seems to be more anti-grav than wheels and tracks. I prefer the latter, but who knows?

gravitywell wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
I think the speederbike from Solo has the right proportions:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/C-PH_patrol_speeder_bike

What about Reys speeder bike:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Rey%27s_speeder

More rounded but still bulky looking. Maybe a little closer to the teaser models armor/appearance?

Same idea, yeah, but to reference that I'd first have to acknowledge that the sequel trilogy exists.

KillerAngel wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Now that's Star Wars styled, but the really front heavy look could easily be made to resemble a steam engine and evoke a more classic industrial dwarf theme.

I think they'd need to be careful about that. Steampunk dwarves are "advanced" tech in a fantasy world. To fit the same paradigm, space dwarves would need to be more hard sci fi in terms of look and feel (which seems to be the case in what they're doing.

Sure. I wasn't really thinking straight steampunk, but a sci-fi look that can be traced back to it. That's the idea we were talking about, isn't it? Dwarfs in space that retain recognizable dwarf elements even though they are definitely a sci-fi take.

 Geifer wrote:

 Wiz Warrior wrote:
Just because a couple other factions recognize and thus utilize the simple genius of the wheel, doesnt mean squats cant use something that they are already known for.

On that note, it remains to be seen if Squats will be big on the simple genius of the wheel. My impression is that GW's idea of technological advancement and Dark Age of Technology tech seems to be more anti-grav than wheels and tracks. I prefer the latter, but who knows?

The most famous Squat - Ian Watson's Grimm - has quite a lengthy internal monologue bemoaning a primitive planet's lack of respect for the mighty wheel, so the League had best keep burning their rubber!

Yes, but what's their view on sugar on the porridge of death?

 Geifer wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Now that's Star Wars styled, but the really front heavy look could easily be made to resemble a steam engine and evoke a more classic industrial dwarf theme.

I think they'd need to be careful about that. Steampunk dwarves are "advanced" tech in a fantasy world. To fit the same paradigm, space dwarves would need to be more hard sci fi in terms of look and feel (which seems to be the case in what they're doing.

Sure. I wasn't really thinking straight steampunk, but a sci-fi look that can be traced back to it. That's the idea we were talking about, isn't it? Dwarfs in space that retain recognizable dwarf elements even though they are definitely a sci-fi take.

To put it another way, if Ad Mech has a '50s/60s feel to their technology, Space Dwarves would feel less advanced if their tech invoked anything akin to steam engines or the Victorian era. My point is that I don't want Fantasy Dwarves in Space, I want Space Dwarves, which to me means: true grit and grumpiness mixed with advanced tech that feels "modern" or closer to hard sci fi realism.

 Geifer wrote:

gravitywell wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
I think the speederbike from Solo has the right proportions:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/C-PH_patrol_speeder_bike

What about Reys speeder bike:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Rey%27s_speeder

More rounded but still bulky looking. Maybe a little closer to the teaser models armor/appearance?

Same idea, yeah, but to reference that I'd first have to acknowledge that the sequel trilogy exists.

I'm not even certain how my mind recalled it... I felt a small amount of shame even referencing it.

KillerAngel wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Now that's Star Wars styled, but the really front heavy look could easily be made to resemble a steam engine and evoke a more classic industrial dwarf theme.

I think they'd need to be careful about that. Steampunk dwarves are "advanced" tech in a fantasy world. To fit the same paradigm, space dwarves would need to be more hard sci fi in terms of look and feel (which seems to be the case in what they're doing.

Sure. I wasn't really thinking straight steampunk, but a sci-fi look that can be traced back to it. That's the idea we were talking about, isn't it? Dwarfs in space that retain recognizable dwarf elements even though they are definitely a sci-fi take.

To put it another way, if Ad Mech has a '50s/60s feel to their technology, Space Dwarves would feel less advanced if their tech invoked anything akin to steam engines or the Victorian era. My point is that I don't want Fantasy Dwarves in Space, I want Space Dwarves, which to me means: true grit and grumpiness mixed with advanced tech that feels "modern" or closer to hard sci fi realism.

The problem is it also needs to have a DAoT theming, i think it would be quite a shame if that just turns out to be realistic/modern sci-fi styled stuff. The new Squat armour seems likely it might have some similarities with Imperial Robots, and to me those evoke more of a classic sci-fi book cover feel. The idea of having humanity's golden age look like retro or classic sci-fi would be interesting I think.

gravitywell wrote:

The name might be telling then... It's not "The 1000 Leagues"... its just one league (possibly).

Since its LeagueS of Votann I'm guessing there's a lot of them. As others have said - space is a big place with a lot of unchartered/unnavigable [by humans]. They could explain their absence by saying after the worlds the Imperium knew about suffered catastrophe the rest withdrew from the rest of the galaxy. Things have changed - rise of chaos, Nids, Necrons and galaxy spitting in half so their are back in the game.

 silverstu wrote:

gravitywell wrote:

The name might be telling then... It's not "The 1000 Leagues"... its just one league (possibly).

Since its LeagueS of Votann I'm guessing there's a lot of them. As others have said - space is a big place with a lot of unchartered/unnavigable [by humans]. They could explain their absence by saying after the worlds the Imperium knew about suffered catastrophe the rest withdrew from the rest of the galaxy. Things have changed - rise of chaos, Nids, Necrons and galaxy spitting in half so their are back in the game.

Oh right, then it could be many. The old White Dwarf mentioned the "League of Emberg" or "Kapellan League"... those could all be part of the "Leagues of Votann"... or just gone... or never existed. Who knows!

Like Space Marine chapters or Craftworlds, having different leagues will allow for some oriented towards themes.... like here is the robot league... or the one with lots of ancestors... or the one secretly corrupted by chaos... etc. And of course allow for players to make up their own.

I've been wondering what will players call them? Space Dwarves? Squats? Votann? It might take awhile to get used to the latter.

They'll be Votann until I see some actual Squats

.

Everyone I know is just calling them squats. It will probably be like IG vs AM, you can usually tell how long someone has been playing by which term they use. They were IG to me for many years before GW went on a copyright rampage after the Chapterhouse case, so they will continue to be IG. All the zoomers who started in 7th can call them AM and I know what they're talking about.

I actually prefer Votann to Squats. Squats was a gak name. I totally understand where Jez was coming from when he talked about the mistakes they made with them. This is an opportunity to do something interesting and refreshing. I'm sure there will be a mix of both. The icon from the teaser trailer was certainly more of a "classic" style.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

The problem is it also needs to have a DAoT theming, i think it would be quite a shame if that just turns out to be realistic/modern sci-fi styled stuff. The new Squat armour seems likely it might have some similarities with Imperial Robots, and to me those evoke more of a classic sci-fi book cover feel. The idea of having humanity's golden age look like retro or classic sci-fi would be interesting I think.

Except that Ad Mech already has the classic sci-fi motif down pat. Squats have to somehow take it one step farther to maintain the "dwarves have better tech" trope.

Is there any official DAoT art floating around? Only stuff I could find seems to be community made.

We have at least one DAoT miniature in the form of Blackstone Fortress's Man of Iron.

AdMech being pulp scifi while Leagues end up being hard scifi would be pretty cool actually.

 Wiz Warrior wrote:
Squats can have bikes.

Just because a couple other factions recognize and thus utilize the simple genius of the wheel, doesnt mean squats cant use something that they are already known for.

Ans has already been stayed a few times in this thread, it would be nice to see the stunties get a powerboard to go with the only known bit of art for them in RT.

To me, maintaining contact with the ground would be an an important quality for squats/dwarves

 Geifer wrote:
When I think about how GW could keep bikes for Squats without revisiting the biker gang with Harleys look I think the speederbike from Solo has the right proportions:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/C-PH_patrol_speeder_bike.

As long as it's not these Star Wars bikes...

*shudder*

KillerAngel wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

The problem is it also needs to have a DAoT theming, i think it would be quite a shame if that just turns out to be realistic/modern sci-fi styled stuff. The new Squat armour seems likely it might have some similarities with Imperial Robots, and to me those evoke more of a classic sci-fi book cover feel. The idea of having humanity's golden age look like retro or classic sci-fi would be interesting I think.

Except that Ad Mech already has the classic sci-fi motif down pat. Squats have to somehow take it one step farther to maintain the "dwarves have better tech" trope.

The Mechanicus usually has a much more archaic looking retro-futuristic design, closer to being steam or dieselpunk inspired overall, or at best sci-fi from the earlier half of the 20th century. "Classic sci-fi" isn't just one style, it's possible to have the Mechanicus be like that and also have something else done in a different way, just have them based on sci-fi from the later half of the century. Something like the comparison between UR-025 and a Kastellan, where they're both robots influenced by classic sci-fi, but UR-025 looks just a bit more sophisticated.

I'd be okay with "more refined" though I prefer modern hard scifi look. I thought, however, that UR-025 had disguised himself to be more Ad Mechy, and therefore not a true representation of a Man of Iron.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


The problem is it also needs to have a DAoT theming, i think it would be quite a shame if that just turns out to be realistic/modern sci-fi styled stuff. The new Squat armour seems likely it might have some similarities with Imperial Robots, and to me those evoke more of a classic sci-fi book cover feel. The idea of having humanity's golden age look like retro or classic sci-fi would be interesting I think.

Don't the Vaan Saar use DAoT stuff though? That looks more cyberpunk than Jetsons styled tech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
AdMech being pulp scifi while Leagues end up being hard scifi would be pretty cool actually.

It would actually yeah. It would certainly distinguish the Squats from the Imperium.
As long as they don't look too much like Tau's anime inspired aesthetic.

Are they going to show off more next week? They sort of just went "yo, squats are back, here's a model" and then left it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
When I think about how GW could keep bikes for Squats without revisiting the biker gang with Harleys look I think the speederbike from Solo has the right proportions:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/C-PH_patrol_speeder_bike.

As long as it's not these Star Wars bikes...

*shudder*

I HATE you for posting that picture .

Each being a different color really makes me think Power Ranger Mando

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
When I think about how GW could keep bikes for Squats without revisiting the biker gang with Harleys look I think the speederbike from Solo has the right proportions:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/C-PH_patrol_speeder_bike.

As long as it's not these Star Wars bikes...

*shudder*

Truly, the worst thing is a sci-fi property reaching back to the zeitgeist that bore it.

Whatever you say, buddy.

gravitywell wrote:

 silverstu wrote:

gravitywell wrote:

The name might be telling then... It's not "The 1000 Leagues"... its just one league (possibly).

Since its LeagueS of Votann I'm guessing there's a lot of them. As others have said - space is a big place with a lot of unchartered/unnavigable [by humans]. They could explain their absence by saying after the worlds the Imperium knew about suffered catastrophe the rest withdrew from the rest of the galaxy. Things have changed - rise of chaos, Nids, Necrons and galaxy spitting in half so their are back in the game.

Oh right, then it could be many. The old White Dwarf mentioned the "League of Emberg" or "Kapellan League"... those could all be part of the "Leagues of Votann"... or just gone... or never existed. Who knows!

I know the name of the next 4 factions. It will be:

Free Worlds Commonwealth.
Lyran Combine.
Federated Draconis.
Suns Confederation.

And GW never looked at other sci-fi properties to make up the names in their own IP

M.

Everything GW does is wholly original. They said so. In court.

Quick question to the group, am I the only one that is having trouble saying Leagues of Votann, and instead say Settlers of Catan?

Dunno, I always find myself wanting to say Leagues of Wotan, which sounds even more silly when you think about it. For those not aware, Wotan is the Name for Odin in the middle European countries. That makes the codex sound like an Amon Amarth album from the 90s.

some people here already talked about that going with a transcript of Wotan in combination with the undercut hairstyle that until recently was known as Hitler-Youth Cut might not have been the best idea

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
When I think about how GW could keep bikes for Squats without revisiting the biker gang with Harleys look I think the speederbike from Solo has the right proportions:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/C-PH_patrol_speeder_bike.

As long as it's not these Star Wars bikes...

*shudder*

I mean, if we go back to the start of this discussion, it would certainly achieve the goal of giving Squats a style of bike that is not reminiscent of what the other armies have.

 GiToRaZor wrote:
Dunno, I always find myself wanting to say Leagues of Wotan, which sounds even more silly when you think about it. For those not aware, Wotan is the Name for Odin in the middle European countries. That makes the codex sound like an Amon Amarth album from the 90s.

In my opinion it's deliberate. Votann is pretty much the spelling that is likely to get people to pronounce the name as closely as a German speaker would pronounce Wotan.

 kodos wrote:
some people here already talked about that going with a transcript of Wotan in combination with the undercut hairstyle that until recently was known as Hitler-Youth Cut might not have been the best idea

Huh, hadn't made that connection with the hair. That's what GW gets for going with a stupid zoomer haircut instead of the traditional bald head or topknot!

 cuda1179 wrote:
Quick question to the group, am I the only one that is having trouble saying Leagues of Votann, and instead say Settlers of Catan?

I keep saying League of Planets and waiting for the squat lions to merge together with a giant sword.

Activating inter-thrusters .

 cuda1179 wrote:
Quick question to the group, am I the only one that is having trouble saying Leagues of Votann, and instead say Settlers of Catan?

Yes! I call them Kin and that's it.

Sometimes, when I see a new release, my initial negative reaction changes over time.

Naaah! GW’s brand of Flanderised Tolkien dwarfs but in space, with a smidge of (I’m sure unintended) white-supremacist Nordicism is (imho) the worst thing to happen to 40K in recent years.

I’ll not only not be buying them, I’ll also be desperately trying to pretend they don’t exist.

 kodos wrote:
some people here already talked about that going with a transcript of Wotan in combination with the undercut hairstyle that until recently was known as Hitler-Youth Cut might not have been the best idea

Those barmy nutcases at sigmarxism are trying to make a case for that.

They're insane most of the time... no... all the time, but man, if this ain't a major stretch, then I dunno what is.

sigmarxism is strange at best (just was there once after people mentioned it on dakka to see what it is about, found a discussion during the "boycott" with the upvoted posts being that it is still better to buy from GW because payment and working conditions at GW are the best in the market and all others are far worse, specially Mantic, and this is the only reason why all other miniatures are so much cheaper, so no I won't visit it again)

but with the current political situation here (or better said in the german speaking parts), such connections are seen more critical than before, specially with 40k being more mainstream

that GW using a name pronounced Wotan, which is used be neo-nazi and right-wing groups (german name of the God would be Wodan and pagans use Odin because it sounds to similar), by itself is not a problem, they wanted something related to dwarfs so going germanic instead of celtic and write it so that english speaker would pronounce it right while it can be trademarked

but going with the hairstyle in combination raised more than one eyebrow here

given, (GW) wargaming is still a nerd-hobby were most of the people are left-wing so such things raise attention very fast
And as I said, those people (not strange internet groups) say it was not the best idea to do it

Hang on a minute..
People have actually tried to make argument squats are somehow right wing/ nazi / white supremacy <insert buzzword for bad thing> ?

ha.. haha.. hahaha . hhhhaaaaaaaa...!!

Comedy gold.
Thank you internet.

I mean I'm annoyed there is failcrap models in production while we getting an entire new plastic model range. But that's my strugggle

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Mind your assumptions, Grasshopper.


“Nids Ate Them” is not, and has never been, canon.

I am pretty sure there was some kind of mention, in either one of the 'Nid Codexes, or even the main rulebook itself - this might be going back 3-4 editions. I don't think it referred to the word 'Squat' specifically, but there was some sort of inference - perhaps someone with a better memory than I can fill in the blanks?

 Argive wrote:
People have actually tried to make argument squats are somehow right wing/ nazi / white supremacy <insert buzzword for bad thing> ?

I've mentioned the group behind this mentality already. I won't do so again because I don't want to spend anymore time thinking about those nutters than I already have, but yes, there's a whole subgroup who think Chaos are the good guys because they "fight fascists", and that Tyranids are awesome because they're just hungry and represent nature destroying "the fascists". These are the types of sad sacks who see imaginary nazis under every bed and behind every light pole - and they often sound like Thatcher-era 20-something year olds, which has a certain sting of irony about it given GW's historical origins - and they have long since forgotten how to separate fiction from reality.

That way lies madness though, and not the fun Chaotic kind. I'd run the other direction.

And we're getting so far from the reality (geddit? ) of a Squat re-release that I'll shut up about this now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're insane most of the time... no... all the time, but man, if this ain't a major stretch, then I dunno what is.

...quite a few yoga poses?

I saw a bald headed guy at Mcdiddy's the other day. Huge fan of slavic folklore, he had a kolovrat across his entire right arm. Also had HATE tattood across his neck, I assume a death metal band. And an 88 on his cheek to let us know he likes math. People can draw the craziest conclusions from these things tho.

Would be good if people shoved their sad political agendas up their own Freaking and not on a Warhammer forum.

 Pacific wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Mind your assumptions, Grasshopper.


“Nids Ate Them” is not, and has never been, canon.

I am pretty sure there was some kind of mention, in either one of the 'Nid Codexes, or even the main rulebook itself - this might be going back 3-4 editions. I don't think it referred to the word 'Squat' specifically, but there was some sort of inference - perhaps someone with a better memory than I can fill in the blanks?

It was in the foreword to a re-release of Ian Watson's Inquisitor Trilogy which in and of itself is questionably canon, especially after his works got re-released again with the Black Library equivalent of Elseworlds.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I saw a bald headed guy at Mcdiddy's the other day. Huge fan of slavic folklore, he had a kolovrat across his entire right arm. Also had HATE tattood across his neck, I assume a death metal band. And an 88 on his cheek to let us know he likes math. People can draw the craziest conclusions from these things tho.

Short sides, longer on the top. Norse pantheon based. Blonde haired and blue eyed... well crap...



I think a little bit of perspective needs to be retained...

 Flinty wrote:


I think a little bit of perspective needs to be retained...

While I agree, the fact you're using Marvel's version of Thor, a character that the American white power/neo-Nazi groups have used as a symbol of Aryan/Nordic superiority for decades specifically because Marvel made him blonde haired and blue eyed, doesn't help your argument.

 Argive wrote:
Hang on a minute..
People have actually tried to make argument squats are somehow right wing/ nazi / white supremacy <insert buzzword for bad thing> ?

ha.. haha.. hahaha . hhhhaaaaaaaa...!!

Comedy gold.
Thank you internet.

I mean I'm annoyed there is failcrap models in production while we getting an entire new plastic model range. But that's my strugggle

I don’t think many people are arguing that at all. However, I think it can be argued that a fairly short period of time after GW was issuing statements about neo-Nazis not being welcome in the hobby, they’re now announcing a new faction almost guaranteed to appeal to those people.

There’s no law saying dwarfs have to be based on Nordic archetypes. I’d argue that basing a “dwarf” faction on Viking types is the laziest, most cliched route imaginable. It just also has the unfortunate, unintended byproduct of looking a bit too far right.

The problem is when you start seeing Nazis everywhere, soon you’re invading a peaceful neighboring country with a Jewish president.

Please, GW, release some new info to get this back on track.

Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

No One Important wrote:
Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

Clearly, GW's biggest inspiration when designing them was Rotha Lintorn-Orman. They're a British company, afterall.

Well, so far they’re looking like the Space Wolves’ clean and tidy cousins. Abnormally short cousins, a clear divergence from the human baseline, so much so they’re not viewed as being strictly human anymore, and generally known by a sneering and derogatory term to refer to their physical abnormalities.

We already know the imperium isn’t best buddies with them. Major elements of it will likely want to purge these abhumans for being an unsanctioned deviation from ‘pure’ humanity.

But that haircut eh?

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
... they’re now announcing a new faction almost guaranteed to appeal to those people.

Short sci-fi Space Dwarfs appeal to Neo-Nazis?

Well that's a new one...

No One Important wrote:
Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

See, I know you're kidding. But there are people who would look at your post and go "By Jove he's right!" and be deadly serious about it.

Yeah, don't Neo-Nazis have a thing against "manlets"?
They want their ubermensch to be tall and buff, no?

Also, didn't Squats always have nordic themes (including lightning bolts and hammers), seeing as they are based on Warhammer Fantasy Dwarfs who had really strong nordic themes?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
... they’re now announcing a new faction almost guaranteed to appeal to those people.

Short sci-fi Space Dwarfs appeal to Neo-Nazis?

Well that's a new one...

No One Important wrote:
Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

See, I know you're kidding. But there are people who would look at your post and go "By Jove he's right!" and be deadly serious about it.

I mean, on the other hand, GW's scale sprint made it so the Squats are as tall as Cadians, just a lot more wide and buff, so they're not exactly manlets.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
... they’re now announcing a new faction almost guaranteed to appeal to those people.

Short sci-fi Space Dwarfs appeal to Neo-Nazis?

Well that's a new one...

No One Important wrote:
Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

See, I know you're kidding. But there are people who would look at your post and go "By Jove he's right!" and be deadly serious about it.

I mean, on the other hand, GW's scale sprint made it so the Squats are as tall as Cadians, just a lot more wide and buff, so they're not exactly manlets.

Is that even official? I didn't see that on the community website.
That doesn't even make any sense fluff wise; if they are the same height as humans, then why is Squat a derogatory word, and how come in the trailer there was that bit with the camera looking down?

No One Important wrote:
doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis?

no, as the simply fact that Nazis were against woman in the military
the inclusion of those makes them communist, as those did not care if you are male or female when they needed soldiers

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
See, I know you're kidding. But there are people who would look at your post and go "By Jove he's right!" and be deadly serious about it

as you will have people who be serious when they say they play a faction simply because the background match their political views

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
... they’re now announcing a new faction almost guaranteed to appeal to those people.

Short sci-fi Space Dwarfs appeal to Neo-Nazis?

Well that's a new one...

No One Important wrote:
Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

See, I know you're kidding. But there are people who would look at your post and go "By Jove he's right!" and be deadly serious about it.

I mean, on the other hand, GW's scale sprint made it so the Squats are as tall as Cadians, just a lot more wide and buff, so they're not exactly manlets.

Is that even official? I didn't see that on the community website.
That doesn't even make any sense fluff wise; if they are the same height as humans, then why is Squat a derogatory word, and how come in the trailer there was that bit with the camera looking down?

'Tis a fanmade scale comprasion, based on the fact they're most likely gonna be on 28.5mm bases.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
... they’re now announcing a new faction almost guaranteed to appeal to those people.

Short sci-fi Space Dwarfs appeal to Neo-Nazis?

Well that's a new one...

No One Important wrote:
Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

See, I know you're kidding. But there are people who would look at your post and go "By Jove he's right!" and be deadly serious about it.

I mean, on the other hand, GW's scale sprint made it so the Squats are as tall as Cadians, just a lot more wide and buff, so they're not exactly manlets.

Is that even official? I didn't see that on the community website.
That doesn't even make any sense fluff wise; if they are the same height as humans, then why is Squat a derogatory word, and how come in the trailer there was that bit with the camera looking down?

'Tis a fanmade scale comprasion, based on the fact they're most likely gonna be on 28.5mm bases.

So not official, and going off an assumption that has no true basis.
Think about it logically, if they are as tall as Cadians, then they aren't really "squat", now are they?
If anything they would be called "widers" instead of "squats" if that were the case.

But why engage with these clearly insane arguments though...

Back on topic

What stats do people expect ?

I recon T4 4+ S4 1W.

In essence mini marines of pre update. (no pun intended)

are there currently any faction that has this basic stat line since marines have been upgraded?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
... they’re now announcing a new faction almost guaranteed to appeal to those people.

Short sci-fi Space Dwarfs appeal to Neo-Nazis?

Well that's a new one...

No One Important wrote:
Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

See, I know you're kidding. But there are people who would look at your post and go "By Jove he's right!" and be deadly serious about it.

I mean, on the other hand, GW's scale sprint made it so the Squats are as tall as Cadians, just a lot more wide and buff, so they're not exactly manlets.

Is that even official? I didn't see that on the community website.
That doesn't even make any sense fluff wise; if they are the same height as humans, then why is Squat a derogatory word, and how come in the trailer there was that bit with the camera looking down?

'Tis a fanmade scale comprasion, based on the fact they're most likely gonna be on 28.5mm bases.

So not official, and going off an assumption that has no true basis.

...the basis is they're visibly on 28.5mm bases?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
... they’re now announcing a new faction almost guaranteed to appeal to those people.

Short sci-fi Space Dwarfs appeal to Neo-Nazis?

Well that's a new one...

No One Important wrote:
Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

See, I know you're kidding. But there are people who would look at your post and go "By Jove he's right!" and be deadly serious about it.

I mean, on the other hand, GW's scale sprint made it so the Squats are as tall as Cadians, just a lot more wide and buff, so they're not exactly manlets.

Is that even official? I didn't see that on the community website.
That doesn't even make any sense fluff wise; if they are the same height as humans, then why is Squat a derogatory word, and how come in the trailer there was that bit with the camera looking down?

'Tis a fanmade scale comprasion, based on the fact they're most likely gonna be on 28.5mm bases.

So not official, and going off an assumption that has no true basis.
Think about it logically, if they are as tall as Cadians, then they aren't really "squat", now are they?
If anything they would be called "widers" instead of "squats" if that were the case.

They are not called squats though are they... They are called something something votan

[never mind]

 Argive wrote:


They are not called squats though are they... They are called something something votan

They are, actually. Squats is a derogatory term.

From the community website :

And while those nasty Necromundans still call them Squats, that’s not at all how they refer to themselves. These warriors have a long and proud martial history, and to those who aren’t on their bad side, they’re known as the Leagues of Votann – though they refer to themselves as Kin.

Of course they're not going to officially refer to themselves with a slur.

Also, watch the trailer again. There was a big deal about the camera pointing down and the kin was clearly short. Just look at the surrounding environment. They're still short, regardless of fan scale mock ups.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

...the basis is they're visibly on 28.5mm bases?

What do you mean "visibly"? Isn't magnification a thing?

The proportions of the base imply that it probably is not a 25mm base.

 Crimson wrote:
The proportions of the base imply that it probably is not a 25mm base.

Maybe, but it could be smaller than 28.5 too.
Without a proper frame of reference it's hard to tell.

Aren't Cadians an old sculpt too? Isn't scale creep a thing?
Maybe we'll get taller guardsmen when they redo infantry.

Height of the rim setting the width to most likely 28.5mm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
League of votan= squats.

Astra militarum = imperial guard

Aeldari = eldar.

Fair play to whoever managed to derail the thread with the Nazi comment, but I'm not sure that nonsense has any place here? Sure there are plenty of spots on Reddit if anyone wants to discuss that stuff.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Mind your assumptions, Grasshopper.
“Nids Ate Them” is not, and has never been, canon.

I am pretty sure there was some kind of mention, in either one of the 'Nid Codexes, or even the main rulebook itself - this might be going back 3-4 editions. I don't think it referred to the word 'Squat' specifically, but there was some sort of inference - perhaps someone with a better memory than I can fill in the blanks?

It was in the foreword to a re-release of Ian Watson's Inquisitor Trilogy which in and of itself is questionably canon, especially after his works got re-released again with the Black Library equivalent of Elseworlds.

OK thanks - I wonder if that was where I read it then. Although I think questioning the content of the book (which is very much not canon in many respects) is not the same as questioning the foreword of the book itself, which presumably was written by someone in a position to comment on 40k lore.

Have had a bit of a search. Lexicanum only references the foreword from Inquisitor War.

There was this comment from the famous Jervis Johnson message, written in 2004

Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet.

Which definitely implies it has been stated somewhere in official lore.

This is then taken from Lexicanum on the topic

The period from the Third Edition to the Fifth Edition was marked by a disappearance of Squats, and the planned development of Demiurg in their place. At first the disappearance of the Squat army from the game rules seems not to have been explained at all. They were seemingly just gone and Games Workshop did not mention them or what happened to them (as far as we currently know) for a very long time. Nevertheless many players and readers believe that Games Workshop sometime in the early second edition of Warhammer 40,000 officially stated that all of the Squats had been devoured by the Tyranids. The truth however seems to be more complicated. The whole "myth" seems to originally stem from a very selective and imprecise interpretation of the answer of an unnamed Games Workshop employee who was in charge of answering readers' letters in the January 2000 (US) edition of White Dwarf[7] which places this event during the third edition of Warhammer 40,000 which came out in 1998. Reader Tim Gutierrez had vented his frustration at GW dropping the Squats with a message entitled "WE WANT SQUATS!!!" and the answer of the unnamed GW respondent was as follows:

"Would you believe they were all eaten by the Tyranid invasion? Or, due to the Squats biker life style, everyone of them was arrested for disturbing the peace and sacrificed to the Emperor. Where do you think they get all of those souls anyway? All kidding aside, it doesn't seem likely the Squats will ever again see the light of day. When they were out they never seemed very popular, showed up at our stores, or tournaments, and didn't sell on top of all that. Their look was really outdated compared to the hundreds of other great Warhammer 40,000 models. Don't send us hate mail, it's just the cold hard facts of the 41st Millennium."
- unnamed GW employee[7]

Seeing this actual quote makes it quite clear that the "Tyranids ate 'em all" urban legend originally was neither formulated as a definite statement (there even is a question mark there), nor was the text that was often erroneously assumed to have spawned this idea really a very official statement. It was simply a somewhat strange answer by an anonymous Games Workshop mail responder. Based on this source it was just as probable or improbable to believe that all Squats had been sacrificed to the Emperor of Mankind for disturbing the peace on their bikes.[7]

I may have to now look through all Tyranid codecies 2nd edition through to 6th (I don't think it would have been later than that, as I haven't owned any of them) just to satisfy the nagging thoughts at the back of my head!

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
... they’re now announcing a new faction almost guaranteed to appeal to those people.

Short sci-fi Space Dwarfs appeal to Neo-Nazis?

Well that's a new one...

No One Important wrote:
Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

See, I know you're kidding. But there are people who would look at your post and go "By Jove he's right!" and be deadly serious about it.

I mean, on the other hand, GW's scale sprint made it so the Squats are as tall as Cadians, just a lot more wide and buff, so they're not exactly manlets.

Is that even official? I didn't see that on the community website.
That doesn't even make any sense fluff wise; if they are the same height as humans, then why is Squat a derogatory word, and how come in the trailer there was that bit with the camera looking down?

'Tis a fanmade scale comprasion, based on the fact they're most likely gonna be on 28.5mm bases.

So not official, and going off an assumption that has no true basis.

...the basis is they're visibly on 28.5mm bases?

They're visibly on a round base, we have limited means to evaluate whether they are on a 25 or a 28.5 or a 32. Based on that image I am inclined to agree it looks like a 28.5, but when I was playing around with my own photo comparisons using other reference images of guardsmen and marines, etc. photographed from slightly different angles there was a strong argument to be made for 25mm instead - each and every one of the reference photos used there is actually taken at a slightly different angle and that can have a huge impact on how their relative sizes are perceived.

I really hope that they're on 25mm bases, as that would make their size far more sensible. But 28,5mm unfortunately seems more likely.

Fyreslayers are on 32mm and with how bulky League armour looks compared to the actual Squat I'd not be surprised they were based similarly. The heavier armoured Kharadrons are also on 32s.

How tall is the Necromunda Squat and what base is he on?

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Sometimes, when I see a new release, my initial negative reaction changes over time.

Naaah! GW’s brand of Flanderised Tolkien dwarfs but in space, with a smidge of (I’m sure unintended) white-supremacist Nordicism is (imho) the worst thing to happen to 40K in recent years.

I’ll not only not be buying them, I’ll also be desperately trying to pretend they don’t exist.

wtf are you saying ahahahahah, white-supremacist Nordicism???, so if a fu... Nazi ,use something no one else can use it ??, in a nutshell let's just leave the monopoly.....
and please dont use politics where it does not exist, if you see Nazis / Communists or whoever you want keep it to yourself people are here to talk about lore and miniatures, not things in the world that have nothing to do with it

Ok, so I knew some wouldn't like the squats, but... wow.

The sheer amount of nonsense some posters have decided to indulge in to convince others they shouldn't like things they don't like is just... a bit much.

Voss wrote:

The sheer amount of nonsense some posters have decided to indulge in to convince others they shouldn't like things they don't like is just... a bit much.

Isn't that like what at least half of this forum is all about? And yes, it is tiresome.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Fyreslayers are on 32mm and with how bulky League armour looks compared to the actual Squat I'd not be surprised they were based similarly. The heavier armoured Kharadrons are also on 32s.

For what it's worth plastic Krieg, that obviously is going to be on the next IG release, is on a 25mm base.

M.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
... they’re now announcing a new faction almost guaranteed to appeal to those people.

Short sci-fi Space Dwarfs appeal to Neo-Nazis?

Well that's a new one...

No One Important wrote:
Just a thought that occurred to me between nightmares but if Nordic imagery and problematic haircuts make things nazis, doesn't that mean the vast majority of female stormcast are nazis? I mean, they've got the undercuts, lightning bolts, take orders from a guy who loves hammers, etc. Strangely the male stormcast seem to have different ideological views as they have different haircuts.

See, I know you're kidding. But there are people who would look at your post and go "By Jove he's right!" and be deadly serious about it.

I mean, on the other hand, GW's scale sprint made it so the Squats are as tall as Cadians, just a lot more wide and buff, so they're not exactly manlets.

Is that even official? I didn't see that on the community website.
That doesn't even make any sense fluff wise; if they are the same height as humans, then why is Squat a derogatory word, and how come in the trailer there was that bit with the camera looking down?

'Tis a fanmade scale comprasion, based on the fact they're most likely gonna be on 28.5mm bases.

So not official, and going off an assumption that has no true basis.

...the basis is they're visibly on 28.5mm bases?

They're visibly on a round base, we have limited means to evaluate whether they are on a 25 or a 28.5 or a 32. Based on that image I am inclined to agree it looks like a 28.5, but when I was playing around with my own photo comparisons using other reference images of guardsmen and marines, etc. photographed from slightly different angles there was a strong argument to be made for 25mm instead - each and every one of the reference photos used there is actually taken at a slightly different angle and that can have a huge impact on how their relative sizes are perceived.

An entirely fair point, and i hope you're correct - however, Guardians were recently moved from 25mm to 28.5mms, Cadians are a 20 years old kit, and most of newer AoS dwarves are on 28.5mms or larger, outside Kharadron's basic troops, so it seems as if Games Workshop has been largely moving away from using 25mms in recent times and going towards larger base sizes, in tandem with the ever-present scale-creep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Fyreslayers are on 32mm and with how bulky League armour looks compared to the actual Squat I'd not be surprised they were based similarly. The heavier armoured Kharadrons are also on 32s.

For what it's worth plastic Krieg, that obviously is going to be on the next IG release, is on a 25mm base.

M.

I'm pretty sure that's only for consistency's sake, so that they have the same base size as the 20 years old Cadians.

Im a bit of a bleeding heart and even I find the whole white supremacist angle to be a reach. Granted, GW can very easily steer that fluff into full-on fash territory, but hopefully they have better sense and did something interesting with the faction.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Fyreslayers are on 32mm and with how bulky League armour looks compared to the actual Squat I'd not be surprised they were based similarly. The heavier armoured Kharadrons are also on 32s.

For what it's worth plastic Krieg, that obviously is going to be on the next IG release, is on a 25mm base.

M.

Are krieg going to be the standard?
I mean, I like Krieg, but I'm not sure GW's marketing department wants a bunch of faceless goons to be representative of a faction. Hence why marines and sisters have their helmets off most of the time even though that's a bloody bad idea.

Personally, I'd like to see the return of multiple IG regiments being available. Not just Krieg on the shelves, but Steel Legion, Mordians, Vostoyans, Praets and Valhallans. I thought that was a nice little element of guardsmen that sadly got phased out in favor of pushing a more generic look.

Crimson wrote:Isn't that like what at least half of this forum is all about? And yes, it is tiresome.

Eh. To some degree, but not usually this kind of crud.

What a waste of time reading most of the posts the last three pages.

So from the few relevant posts;
Bases. How does a Krieg guardsman look next to the Marine and thus a Votann model?
As it’s the most up to date human.
I assume they are taller than a Cadian? So a better comparison?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How tall is the Necromunda Squat and what base is he on?

In a desperate bid to stay slightly relevant to miniatures;
Both of them are on 25mm bases and come up to about chest height on an Escher.

Voss wrote:
The sheer amount of nonsense some posters have decided to indulge in to convince others they shouldn't like things they don't like is just... a bit much.

Especially given how little we've seen.

We've seen one model. Only thing I don't like is the muted paint scheme, but that's just paint. We've seen nothing else of who these people are or what their mini range looks at.

It's so premature to judge everything about them, or the people playing them.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How tall is the Necromunda Squat and what base is he on?

In a desperate bid to stay slightly relevant to miniatures;
Both of them are on 25mm bases and come up to about chest height on an Escher.

Hm, I'm going to assume the Votann are also on 25mm bases then, just for consistency's sake.
It would look bloody weird for a Votann squat to be taller than a Necromunda squat when they just finished telling us that they are the same.

Voss wrote:
Ok, so I knew some wouldn't like the squats, but... wow.

The sheer amount of nonsense some posters have decided to indulge in to convince others they shouldn't like things they don't like is just... a bit much.

Mate, I would never tell someone they shouldn’t like something. I’m merely expressing my own subjective opinion about why I don’t like the new squats, just as other people have explained why they like them … and that’s fine.

I’m not for a minute saying that the new squats are intrinsically (and especially not deliberately) fascist. They just, for me, bring to mind classic fascist tropes. I just find it very disappointing, when there are so many interesting and original things that they could have done to reinvent the squats.

But if you like them, then you go ahead and like them. I’ll never tell you you’re wrong to like anything. Stop pretending that people who hold opinions different from yours are somehow trying to tell you your opinion is wrong when the only people I’ve seen doing that are the one arguing about whether miniatures are monopose or not.

 kodos wrote:
those people (not strange internet groups) say it was not the best idea to do it

Those people sound like they're reaching really far to look for something to be offended about.

This is not a topic about people of any kind.
Not about fascism.
Not about Neonazism
Not about White Supermacism.
Not about Communism.

Its about 28mm toyism.

If you think that 28mm toys are an excuse for you to vomit your personal propaganda crap on others and call it "opinion" then do everyone a favour and dont.

The original Squats had a Nordic theming too, because that's just a common aspect of fantasy Dwarfs. They had a "League of Thor" for example. It's just them taking a common fantasy dwarf archetype and going a bit more sci-fi with it, thinking there's more to that is just absurd. That theming is just the typically expected styling of Fantasy Dwarfs, I don't see it as any more lazy than having Elves that are tall with pointy ears and elegant, sleek designs. It's just part of how they are.

Toofast wrote:

 kodos wrote:
those people (not strange internet groups) say it was not the best idea to do it

Those people sound like they're reaching really far to look for something to be offended about.

I fear you found some of the issues ingrained in certain types of germans for historical reasons that have developped what is colloqually known as a cultural neurosis called "Verbotskultur" (culture of the prohibition) or also "Verbots-un-kultur" (the negative view of that behaviour roughly translated into Anti culture of the prohibition.).
Other interesting victims of said mentality are videogames f.e. TF 2 which in the german version was forced to replace gibs with robotic junk.

_____________________________________


Personally, if they are on large bases i fear they are a bit too tall for my tastes.
Also they are a tad too much sci-fi and too few dwarf? Basically a bit of the good old Tau problem of ye olden days.
But they certainly look like fine enough models i think, the make or break will be the pricetag i fear.

It’s laughable how, “I don’t like these minis because they remind me slightly of this ..” gets such a response. Accusations of wanting to be offended (I’m not offended) and “vomiting propaganda” are just a joke.

I’d thought I’d made it obvious that the reason I didn’t like then is mostly because they are cliched and boring…

… talk about people wanting to be offended.

Wow, this turned into a bit of a popcorn thread overnight. I was thinking of typing up my own thoughts, but another thread might be a better place for those that want to discusss?

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I’d thought I’d made it obvious that the reason I didn’t like then is mostly because they are cliched and boring…

I can see what you're saying here... but I don't know if it was boring for me just because it was interesting to see what they are changing. Any of the factions or models have had changes over the years, but this is one where GW (and a lot of fans) also wanted more explicit change. I guess we'll see what else they do to give them their own identity and uniqueness.


I'd love to see that model size comparison with the Necromunda Squat and an old Squat model. The old ones were really short... like their entire leg was their boot!

gravitywell wrote:

I can see what you're saying here... but I don't know if it was boring for me just because it was interesting to see what they are changing. Any of the factions or models have had changes over the years, but this is one where GW (and a lot of fans) also wanted more explicit change. I guess we'll see what else they do to give them their own identity and uniqueness.

Considering the Kharadron Overlords are quite an inventive unique take on the Fantasy Dwarf archetype without making them into something that clearly isn't a Fantasy Dwarf still, it would be quite odd if these do just end up without something just as much of a unique theming. The 1 miniature we've seen does come across a bit bland, but hopefully he's not indicative of their overall style.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
It’s laughable how, “I don’t like these minis because they remind me slightly of this ..” gets such a response. Accusations of wanting to be offended (I’m not offended) and “vomiting propaganda” are just a joke.

I’d thought I’d made it obvious that the reason I didn’t like then is mostly because they are cliched and boring…

… talk about people wanting to be offended.

I like when someone makes an actually-interesting comment like that on here, and the cranky 60 year old men form up in phalanx, grievously offended at being made to think of something that's made it past the comfort-armour of the plastic toyscape they've spent decades cladding themselves in.

I do think it's kind of premature to make your judgment based on a single model, though. And does it really matter if 40K introduces another army that appeals to the fascist aesthetic? There's no shortage of options for that already, including the omnipresent Space Marines, which deliver those vibes straight into the veins.

 Argive wrote:
But why engage with these clearly insane arguments though...

Back on topic

What stats do people expect ?

I recon T4 4+ S4 1W.

In essence mini marines of pre update. (no pun intended)

are there currently any faction that has this basic stat line since marines have been upgraded?

I actually predict the same, except for them having S3. S4 is "superhuman" strength.

S3 T4 would reflect them being dwarfs, yes. That was the statline for dwarfs in WHFB. Dunno what they are in Sigmar though.

 Altruizine wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
It’s laughable how, “I don’t like these minis because they remind me slightly of this ..” gets such a response. Accusations of wanting to be offended (I’m not offended) and “vomiting propaganda” are just a joke.

I’d thought I’d made it obvious that the reason I didn’t like then is mostly because they are cliched and boring…

… talk about people wanting to be offended.

I like when someone makes an actually-interesting comment like that on here, and the cranky 60 year old men form up in phalanx, grievously offended at being made to think of something that's made it past the comfort-armour of the plastic toyscape they've spent decades cladding themselves in.

I do think it's kind of premature to make your judgment based on a single model, though. And does it really matter if 40K introduces another army that appeals to the fascist aesthetic? There's no shortage of options for that already, including the omnipresent Space Marines, which deliver those vibes straight into the veins.

Oh I’m totally aware that this is just a gut reaction to a single mini. I hope to have my mind changed. I think the difference between the squats and the Imperium stuff, is that when the Imperium evokes fascist imagery, it tends to be the obvious, old discredited stuff. It’s clear that it’s meant to invoke the idea that the Imperium is not a nice place. However Norse runes, Wotan and talk of kin has become the new face of fascism in the last few years. That’s why, as someone that your typical fascist would have a problem with, I find it a bit disappointing that GW has gone there.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

Voss wrote:
Ok, so I knew some wouldn't like the squats, but... wow.

The sheer amount of nonsense some posters have decided to indulge in to convince others they shouldn't like things they don't like is just... a bit much.

Mate, I would never tell someone they shouldn’t like something. I’m merely expressing my own subjective opinion about why I don’t like the new squats, just as other people have explained why they like them … and that’s fine.

I’m not for a minute saying that the new squats are intrinsically (and especially not deliberately) fascist. They just, for me, bring to mind classic fascist tropes. I just find it very disappointing, when there are so many interesting and original things that they could have done to reinvent the squats.

But if you like them, then you go ahead and like them. I’ll never tell you you’re wrong to like anything. Stop pretending that people who hold opinions different from yours are somehow trying to tell you your opinion is wrong when the only people I’ve seen doing that are the one arguing about whether miniatures are monopose or not.

This would be much, much easier to believe if you'd stopped at 'I don't like them' and not delved full on into conspiracy crap based on a single mini.
That you're trying to turn this around on others is just reinforcing that. Because you ARE now telling people their opinion is wrong, and you can't gaslight that while doing it.
Strangely folks reaching further and further to justify 'don't like it,' are in fact inviting argument. Almost... baiting it, one would say.

I'd personally prefer that historical cultural elements not be ignored or cast into the trash bin just because some individuals with objectionable views happen to like them. Whether it's Nordic runes or the color red, that's never a good thing, imo.

Getting back on topic, we've seen one figure. I like it. Others won't because there's never total agreement on anything. We know that more figures are out there because of the shadowed images in the trailer. Hopefully we'll see a few more (perhaps a full fire team) within the next week or two.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
S3 T4 would reflect them being dwarfs, yes. That was the statline for dwarfs in WHFB. Dunno what they are in Sigmar though.

Given the daft mechanical framework of AOS, no-one can truly say how strong or tough a model/race is, and only barely comment on how skilled or strong they are compared to another unit/race.

It would be nice for GW to break a habit of a lifetime, though, and have a Dwarf-based species be superior to the Elf-based ones...

Voss wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

Voss wrote:
Ok, so I knew some wouldn't like the squats, but... wow.

The sheer amount of nonsense some posters have decided to indulge in to convince others they shouldn't like things they don't like is just... a bit much.

Mate, I would never tell someone they shouldn’t like something. I’m merely expressing my own subjective opinion about why I don’t like the new squats, just as other people have explained why they like them … and that’s fine.

I’m not for a minute saying that the new squats are intrinsically (and especially not deliberately) fascist. They just, for me, bring to mind classic fascist tropes. I just find it very disappointing, when there are so many interesting and original things that they could have done to reinvent the squats.

But if you like them, then you go ahead and like them. I’ll never tell you you’re wrong to like anything. Stop pretending that people who hold opinions different from yours are somehow trying to tell you your opinion is wrong when the only people I’ve seen doing that are the one arguing about whether miniatures are monopose or not.

This would be much, much easier to believe if you'd stopped at 'I don't like them' and not delved full on into conspiracy crap based on a single mini.
That you're trying to turn this around on others is just reinforcing that. Because you ARE now telling people their opinion is wrong, and you can't gaslight that while doing it.
Strangely folks reaching further and further to justify 'don't like it,' are in fact inviting argument. Almost... baiting it, one would say.

I think I’m done with your histrionics mate.

Based on the one model they've announced, LoV will clearly retain some ties to the European Dark Age just based on the Haglaz rune (in between two fake runes) on the shoulder pad. Notice I didn't say Viking age, because Old Norse used younger futhark runes.


But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

 Dysartes wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
S3 T4 would reflect them being dwarfs, yes. That was the statline for dwarfs in WHFB. Dunno what they are in Sigmar though.

Given the daft mechanical framework of AOS, no-one can truly say how strong or tough a model/race is, and only barely comment on how skilled or strong they are compared to another unit/race.

It would be nice for GW to break a habit of a lifetime, though, and have a Dwarf-based species be superior to the Elf-based ones...

Comment from the sidelines but may I ask if anyone in the age of T5 Orks and W2 Marines actually believes the classic S3 T4 dwarf statline would be considered adequate by the rules designers?

It seems to me that the game has moved on and what was once thought of as hardy is little more than a joke now.

We've Chris Cartered this enough and need a new set of conspiracy theories. And after seeing the size comparisons, I think we now know where to go. Cawl got the tech to make Primaris marines from squats.
In addition to their increased height, the torso armor has certain similarities to gravis armor. Or possibly they're related to Grey Knights. That could just be a high cowl or it could be a psychic hood. Possibly both.
You heard it hear first, folks. T4 base with T5 for the Gravis Minoris armor and each unit can deny once per turn at 24".

Comment from the sidelines but may I ask if anyone in the age of T5 Orks and W2 Marines actually believes the classic S3 T4 dwarf statline would be considered adequate by the rules designers?

Both those factions are currently outclassed in every possible way by (supposedly) T3 1w armies. The current level of full-blown-cancer power creep has basically nothing to do with the statline of the "basic infantry."

Squats could be given grot statlines, and still be broken by giving them a pile of crisis suit or jetbike type units with ludicrous firepower, immunity to all basic rules, free victory points for existing, et cetera.

KillerAngel wrote:


But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

Actually as an archaeologist who does a lot of work on this, Anglo-Saxon is a phrase that is no longer in use, same as Dark Ages. It's the Early Medieval period. And part of the reason for that is how Anglo Saxon has become such an integral part of Neo-Nazis and their weird genetic make up obsession.

Anyway that's way off topic. So maybe let's pack that in until there's new updates from GW..

KillerAngel wrote:
Based on the one model they've announced, LoV will clearly retain some ties to the European Dark Age just based on the Haglaz rune (in between two fake runes) on the shoulder pad. Notice I didn't say Viking age, because Old Norse used younger futhark runes.

Spoiler:

But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

So you're telling me they're British? That's even worse in the current political climate!

Leave it to an academic to ruin a good joke...

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:
Based on the one model they've announced, LoV will clearly retain some ties to the European Dark Age just based on the Haglaz rune (in between two fake runes) on the shoulder pad. Notice I didn't say Viking age, because Old Norse used younger futhark runes.

Spoiler:

But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

So you're telling me they're British? That's even worse in the current political climate!

Even worse... English.

KillerAngel wrote:
Leave it to an academic to ruin a good joke...

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:
Based on the one model they've announced, LoV will clearly retain some ties to the European Dark Age just based on the Haglaz rune (in between two fake runes) on the shoulder pad. Notice I didn't say Viking age, because Old Norse used younger futhark runes.

Spoiler:

But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

So you're telling me they're British? That's even worse in the current political climate!

Even worse... English.

AYNEGLISHH

 Pacific wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Mind your assumptions, Grasshopper.


“Nids Ate Them” is not, and has never been, canon.

I am pretty sure there was some kind of mention, in either one of the 'Nid Codexes, or even the main rulebook itself - this might be going back 3-4 editions. I don't think it referred to the word 'Squat' specifically, but there was some sort of inference - perhaps someone with a better memory than I can fill in the blanks?

I'm pretty sure you are right. In one of the rulebooks it lists abhuman species and mentioned Squats. It said something like "presumed extinct due to Tyranid incursion".

So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Damn, now i have to paint the undersuit like it's a flannel shirt.

KillerAngel wrote:
Based on the one model they've announced, LoV will clearly retain some ties to the European Dark Age just based on the Haglaz rune (in between two fake runes) on the shoulder pad. Notice I didn't say Viking age, because Old Norse used younger futhark runes.

Spoiler:

But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

Wow. There are a whole bunch of runes scrolling past on the left and right hand sides at the end of the teaser video if you're looking for more to analyse.

gravitywell wrote:

Wow. There are a whole bunch of runes scrolling past on the left and right hand sides at the end of the teaser video if you're looking for more to analyse.

Nothing even close to proto-Germanic runes or their derivatives unfortunately. Personally, I get more of a "Katakana meets Stargate" vibe.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Damn, now i have to paint the undersuit like it's a flannel shirt.

Whatever you need to do to get the attention you crave.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things.

Bloody Dark Angel fan boys coming over here....

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Hipster-y tech bro was also the first thing I saw

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
S3 T4 would reflect them being dwarfs, yes. That was the statline for dwarfs in WHFB. Dunno what they are in Sigmar though.

In Sigmar there's no Toughness anymore -- just wounds and save. "Tougher" units just have more wounds and lower save. Extra toughness is added via abilities like ward save and damage reduction.

For example, Gotrek, one of the most polarizing units in the game, is extremely tough, but if you just see his "stats" you wouldn't really know that. He's 8 wounds with a 4+ save. Buuuuut. . . he reduces all damage to 1 and has a 3+ ward save (and that's not to mention the damage he can do). He's manageable in game due to having 4" movement and a rule that excludes him from being able to teleport or "deep strike" him. He must start on the board and walk like a badass.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Hipster-y tech bro was also the first thing I saw

"I only use independent, alternative weaponry from the times of the Dark Age, it's just so much better and more sophisticated than the more mainstream, modern Imperial technology, you wouldn't get it." Chugs craft beer

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Hipster-y tech bro was also the first thing I saw

"I only use independent, alternative weaponry from the times of the Dark Age, it's just so much better and more sophisticated than the more mainstream, modern Imperial technology, you wouldn't get it." Chugs craft mead

FIFU

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:


"I only use independent, alternative weaponry from the times of the Dark Age, it's just so much better and more sophisticated than the more mainstream, modern Imperial technology, you wouldn't get it." Chugs craft beer

Which is actually not all that far off from some WHFB dwarf attitudes, iirc.

"If it was good enough for my ancestors, it's good enough for me!"

Eumerin wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:


"I only use independent, alternative weaponry from the times of the Dark Age, it's just so much better and more sophisticated than the more mainstream, modern Imperial technology, you wouldn't get it." Chugs craft beer

Which is actually not all that far off from some WHFB dwarf attitudes, iirc.

"If it was good enough for my ancestors, it's good enough for me!"

And ironically, with the lost-tech nature of the Imperium, they are not wrong.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Hipster-y tech bro was also the first thing I saw

Oh no, he’s here to sell us NFTs for his new Crone World timeshare!

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Hipster-y tech bro was also the first thing I saw

Oh no, he’s here to sell us NFTs for his new Crone World timeshare!

"No, see you're not buying land from my lost homeworld. You are buying a token minted by a node of 47 servo skulls......."

Personally I anticipate 4+/5++ on the basic troops. Personal shielding for basic troops seems like a good "high-tech faction" baseline.

Hey guys

I know a couple of us were trying to discuss the demise of the Squats in the lore, probably not the best place for it here so I have opened a new thread in 40k Background if anyone wants to join in!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804504.page#11342537

So how do we think GW will handle the release model wise- they are obviously going to do a decent build upland have talked about "advanced elements arriving in a few solid months." I'm thinking they might go similar to the Sisters release with specific set of models made for an Army Box [which then becomes the combat patrol]. Followed by multipart boxes a few months later.
The problem [especially evident in AoS] when they create new factions is the limits of the range initially - the sisters actually have quite a lot of sculpts now and their army set really helped set the basis of this.
I think a Squat Killteam will come later like the Novitiates based on the Squat rumour that came out at the end of the eldar Christmas rumours that a Squat Killteam was coming but was a long way off.

It really depends.


GW could give them a Sisters of Battle style release with a huge chunk of models in several large waves.

Or they could do an AoS type of release with a small release of models in one go and then drip feed over time.


One bonus 40K has is that there are fewer armies (even fewer if you consider the marines as 1 force) than in AoS. So in theory the budget is spread less thin. So they can do a chunkier update without it eating into other armies. AoS has a LOT of armies that either need boosting up or total range refreshes (or near enough).
Heck Skaven are still running around with multiple metal and first generation plastics




So GW could go either way with Squats, a huge focus or a modest release. It also depends how they design the army itself. We've no idea right now if its going to be a mass infantry; mass vehicle; elite small squad style force. They could be like Tyranids with lots of swarming options for infantry and big things; or they could be like Custodes, elite warriors few in number but super powerful.

I’m thinking (more hoping really) that they don’t follow that formula but instead start with Kill Team, preferably with some themed terrain.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I’m thinking (more hoping really) that they don’t follow that formula but instead start with Kill Team, preferably with some themed terrain.

I prefer they don't start with Kill Team, and give them at least the starting point for a full faction, with a vehicle or two, a few infantry units and one or two HQs

Agreed. A Killteam could happen, but its a poor start to have a whole army built from. GW has done new subfactions through Killteam and Warcry, but those work because they bolt into existing large armies. Eg the Eldar Pirates and the Krieg both work because they bolt into big existing factions. You can use the infantry models to make a huge core if you want, but the vehicles, leaders, support etc... are all already there.

Squats being their own army means they don't bolt into another one, that means if all GW released was a Kill Team then the whole army would be 1 infantry unit set. That's, not very interesting.


Even if they did the Warcry trick of putting unique characters into the infantry unit, it would still be pretty boring. By all means a Killteam as part of the release would be great and they could start with one, but as the whole release it would be pretty dull.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I’m thinking (more hoping really) that they don’t follow that formula but instead start with Kill Team, preferably with some themed terrain.

The more reliable rumors have them coming as an army set, not a Kill Team.

I dont think this article has been brought up yet:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/05/the-saga-of-the-squats-from-space-dwarfs-to-the-leagues-of-votann/

It's refreshing to see that because... well, it acknowledges so much and even embraces the history, rather than pretend the old stuff never existed.

Maybe there are some hints and clues there too? They do say:

The new background for the Leagues of Votann builds off the old lore in interesting ways – including how they interact with their ancestors. Old-time fans will enjoy the references and twists, while new fans will be into their funky tech, unusual appearance, and unique playstyle.

I think ancestors are definitely coming back then. And some other funky tech. (I'm calling old dude in a hover pod with a beard so long it holds the model in the air).

There was also a thread on facebook where they were asking "The Leagues of Votann have been around for a while - what's been our favourite miniature throughout the years?". This one made me laugh, because the language makes it seem like they've been around for ages and never left. There, they chose the same artwork originally from Ork and Squat Warlords that the Warhammer-Community article used. I don't know how much you can read into it, but I do think that when remembering the history, both in that Warhammer-Community article and facebook post, they are not going to pick stuff they are embarrassed of... or just dont want us to remember. So, from that Ork and Squat Warlords artwork I'd say land trains might something they want us to remember.




I can see a boxed set for a battle engine, and another for a stand-alone transport that also has interchangeable turret parts for various train car configurations.

gravitywell wrote:
It's refreshing to see that because... well, it acknowledges so much and even embraces the history, rather than pretend the old stuff never existed.

Yeah, about the pretense or lack thereof:

gravitywell wrote:
There was also a thread on facebook where they were asking "The Leagues of Votann have been around for a while - what's been our favourite miniature throughout the years?". This one made me laugh, because the language makes it seem like they've been around for ages and never left.

Leagues of Votann have been around since April 2, which certainly fits one definition of a while. I'm not sure which miniature to pick as a favorite myself, because it's really hard to decide between the single model known to the public.

So yeah, I understand that GW wants to get the (re-)branding into the public's consciousness from day one, but since they're talking about history, they should just stick with what Squats have historically been called to not sound like idiots. There won't be a shortage of official material in the coming months that puts Leagues of Votann front and center.

This is something I actually agree with GW. Squats always was a poor joke name, and the faction really needed a rebranding.


But on the other hand, I understand that many will have issues getting used to the new name.

 Tyran wrote:
This is something I actually agree with GW. Squats always was a poor joke name, and the faction really needed a rebranding.

So much of this game used to be humour like that before the grimdark edgelord angle became dominant.

Now we have space dwarfs with contemporary haircuts you'd see on 21 year old men. I'm not sure that's less tacky than calling a space dwarf a squat.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I’m thinking (more hoping really) that they don’t follow that formula but instead start with Kill Team, preferably with some themed terrain.

I think it'll be a Kill-Team boxset. Squats vs Genestealers on the ship from the trailer, probably with the KT Rogue Trader terrain.

Then the Army Set.

Then the first wave of models.

Then just over a year later the second wave with the 10th edition codex with arrive.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Now we have space dwarfs with contemporary haircuts you'd see on 21 year old men. I'm not sure that's less tacky than calling a space dwarf a squat.

"Thats pog, lads! Dark Age tech be bussin fr fr, let's gooooooooooooo!"
- Thane Anvilson, The Dab of Fortnightly.

, but since they're talking about history, they should just stick with what Squats have historically been called to not sound like idiots. There won't be a shortage of official material in the coming months that puts Leagues of Votann front and center.

They can't, their rights to that name lapsed, and somebody from Russia registered the TM for Squat in the UK back in 2019.

M.

Selfishly I'd prefer:
1) LoV Kill Team
2) IG codex with LoV elites choice
3) LoV Codex

 Miguelsan wrote:

, but since they're talking about history, they should just stick with what Squats have historically been called to not sound like idiots. There won't be a shortage of official material in the coming months that puts Leagues of Votann front and center.

They can't, their rights to that name lapsed, and somebody from Russia registered the TM for Squat in the UK back in 2019.

M.

So I looked that one up. It looks like it’s for some kind of exercise equipment based on the owner’s other trademarks. This appears to be a competitive space, with a half dozen or so sport- or exercise- related “squat” themed marks.
Absolutely nothing stopping GW registering the name again there, as long as they don’t put out a “blast your thighs the squat way” video.

Some more attempted scale comprasion, both with 40k Humans and AoS dwarves, depending on wheather the base is 28.5 or 25mm.

25mm scaling looks way more sensible.

 NAVARRO wrote:
This is not a topic about people of any kind.
Not about fascism.
Not about Neonazism
Not about White Supermacism.
Not about Communism.

Its about 28mm toyism.

If you think that 28mm toys are an excuse for you to vomit your personal propaganda crap on others and call it "opinion" then do everyone a favour and dont.

This. Take the political rubbish out of here.

Not like people can stop it. Only Off-Topic can avoid having political talk, but so long as the politics is on topic anywhere else in the forum it'll be allowed for some reason.

Dread Master wrote:

This. Take the political rubbish out of here.

The conversation has moved on, but thanks for bringing it back up.

 Crimson wrote:
25mm scaling looks way more sensible.

Which means they won't do it

I'm expecting a Sisters/Beast Snagga style box then a few select extra kits.

Beast Snagga release was
Codex
Zodgrod
Boyz x 2
Squig Nob
Squig Boyz

Followed up with
Beastboss
Squigboss multi purpose kit
Killrig multi purpose kit
Painboss?

I think that is all they need.

The box would be:
Codex
Squat Lord
Squat Squad x 2
Squat Priest/Psyker
Squat Light Vehicle (x 2 if lucky)

The follow up release would be:
Squatty McSquatterson High Lord of the Squatterverse (could be a dual kit to make a Lord in Mega Armour)
Squat Mechanic
Squat Heavy Vehicle (dual purpose kit)
A slot for a wild card cool unit

But, if we are talking ideal wishlist dreams, I would like to see the Squats in the 10th edition box (vs Space Marines of course as even dream scenarios have limits). They would be a xenos faction, able to ally with Tau as equals. Then the next Warhammer magazine run would have 50% Space Marines / 50% Squats and I could build up a cool but cheap 4,000 points of them.

EightFoldPath wrote:
The box would be:
Codex
Squat Lord
Squat Squad x 2
Squat Priest/Psyker
Squat Light Vehicle (x 2 if lucky)

I have a feeling this is too optimistic. Squats are probably not going to be a horde army with that emphasis on understanding Dark Age of Technology stuff, so I don't see two infantry units as likely. The sad contents of the Black Templar launch box are probably a better comparison for what we can expect, in my opinion.

I seem to remember someone further up thread speculating about a launch box like Sisters got, with monopose models specific to that box and later repurposed for a Combat Patrol. In my opinion that's the only way we'd get a launch box that feels like it has some substance to it. If it's the full kits, I'd say a leader, a squad, a moderately sized vehicle or artillery model and one more unit with a cheaper price tag like a support character is all we can expect. Plus codex and cards, of course.

And it'll come at that lovely new 175€ price.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Some more attempted scale comprasion, both with 40k Humans and AoS dwarves, depending on wheather the base is 28.5 or 25mm.

Let's hope it's the one on the right...

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
25mm scaling looks way more sensible.

Which means they won't do it

Pretty much.

I hope it won't follow the way Sisters were released
they already had a hard time by missing essential models for a year which could be compensated by using the old ones

yet LoV does not have old ones to buy, and if GW releases a limited box and only those getting one can legally build an army while everyone else has to wait won't to them any good

I really feel the scaling is the biggest question here. Perhaps some people really want giant space dwarves, but I feel the 28.5mm scaling looks super goofy. Yet, the base proportions and size of some of the details imply that this might indeed be the correct size.

 kodos wrote:
I hope it won't follow the way Sisters were released
they already had a hard time by missing essential models for a year which could be compensated by using the old ones

yet LoV does not have old ones to buy, and if GW releases a limited box and only those getting one can legally build an army while everyone else has to wait won't to them any good

Exactly my thoughts.
This is quite an uncommon ground since there are no previous models you can use to fill the gaps and also a playable 40k Army needs several units to be functional.
To me the Kin need to hit the ground running from day one if they want gamers to pick them up.
This will need a couple troops (dual kit) a Heavy, fast, HQ and so on.

Unless they do a Killteam and just move along which would be a really bad move to kickstart a full "new" 40k faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I really feel the scaling is the biggest question here. Perhaps some people really want giant space dwarves, but I feel the 28.5mm scaling looks super goofy. Yet, the base proportions and size of some of the details imply that this might indeed be the correct size.

25mm base would be the ideal but if they make them giant sized dwarfs then I dont think its hard to take a few mm off the legs... Not joking about chopping off the thin ankles or even replace feet. Its a really simple conversion.

I feel this'll be like the Lumineth release. We'll get a half-army first, and then 12-18 months later a whole new book that has the rest of their units.

I have the feeling this is going to be an extremelly expensive army too since all will be under the new GW price tags, theres no old and less expensive models to pick from.

The comparison shots suggest that the model's shins are longer than the other dwarves/squats. On this model, it looks like it would be possible to cut out the ankles and reposition on the feet to restore the proportions easily enough.

Might be a pain to do that on a whole army, and we haven't seen if that is feasible on the other LoV models yet.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 kodos wrote:
I hope it won't follow the way Sisters were released
they already had a hard time by missing essential models for a year which could be compensated by using the old ones

yet LoV does not have old ones to buy, and if GW releases a limited box and only those getting one can legally build an army while everyone else has to wait won't to them any good

Exactly my thoughts.
This is quite an uncommon ground since there are no previous models you can use to fill the gaps and also a playable 40k Army needs several units to be functional.
To me the Kin need to hit the ground running from day one if they want gamers to pick them up.
This will need a couple troops (dual kit) a Heavy, fast, HQ and so on.

Unless they do a Killteam and just move along which would be a really bad move to kickstart a full "new" 40k faction.


.

I can't remember how sisters where released- I thought they got lots of kits after the army box? Was it not 8 boxes and 4 character kits?
An AoS style release tends to be 6 boxes and 4 characters which gives a solid base to the faction, but longer term is slightly limiting.
Was thinking of a specific army set like the sisters got as it gave a real flavour of the whole army and added a bunch of unique sculpts to the range when the rest of the kits arrived. As they are a new faction I think they might want to give people a feeler the whole army straight away, the standard army box with a couple of boxes and a pair of characters mightn't achieve that.

A killteam set- I really love the look of the killteams that have been released- they look great and have all the extra options that you can use to customise your collection. So that would help add variety as well but it would be a bit frustrating if ally could get initially was one set locked in a boxed set.

I also wonder if the Kin warlord/character will get options like the Eldar autarch and the sisters Canoness. With no previous range to draw from I really hope whatever they do they give us lots of options/depth across the range otherwise the scope for collecting can be quite limiting.

Don't forget Sisters were a bit of an exception because they weren't a new army release, but a massive linewide upgrade and expansion. GW was fairly confident with it because they had lots of sales and interest metrics before.

Squats likely do not have that at all beyond a few necromunda models. So whilst there IS interest and marketing behind them, it isn't anything like what was behind Sisters of Battle.

 silverstu wrote:

I can't remember how sisters where released- I thought they got lots of kits after the army box? Was it not 8 boxes and 4 character kits?

but that it took year until the last one was out

GSC had a pretty small range at launch even with the compatible Guard kits shoring them up. They didn't get their second wave for another two and a half years, which is pretty short in the grand scheme of other armies but a pretty lengthy amount of time for such a limited range, particularly when it was an infantry horde.

 Overread wrote:
Don't forget Sisters were a bit of an exception because they weren't a new army release, but a massive linewide upgrade and expansion. GW was fairly confident with it because they had lots of sales and interest metrics before.

Squats likely do not have that at all beyond a few necromunda models. So whilst there IS interest and marketing behind them, it isn't anything like what was behind Sisters of Battle.

This is true, I wouldn't expect a massive range straight away like sisters but I don't think they can be too conservative with the first release- there has to be enough to feel like an army so probably the AoS model for a new faction release with 6 sets and 4 characters to start of with and maybe a follow up wave a year later. [which I think my wallet will appreciate].
I'm thinking Hearthguard will still be a thing, some sort of exo suits and probably AI/robots maybe as Ancestors [Valraks source mentioned Men of Iron along with squats, could be they use AI tech making their Ancestors immortal]. Valrak also said he heard that it was big release [but I think that just means a full faction rather than just Killteam which is obvious now] and a big vehicle was mentioned.
Other than that I haven't read anything much rumour wise for them other than a Killteam for them is coming but far off [eldar Christmas rumours] and Thudd Gun [artillery ] is coming via Bob from War of Sigmar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

 silverstu wrote:

I can't remember how sisters where released- I thought they got lots of kits after the army box? Was it not 8 boxes and 4 character kits?

but that it took year until the last one was out

Ah yes I forgot it took ages.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:
GSC had a pretty small range at launch even with the compatible Guard kits shoring them up. They didn't get their second wave for another two and a half years, which is pretty short in the grand scheme of other armies but a pretty lengthy amount of time for such a limited range, particularly when it was an infantry horde.

Yeah and they had Stealers already available so it wasn't that big release. The faction looks pretty good now though model wise. Mechanicus was a smallish release at the start ?

 Arbitrator wrote:
GSC had a pretty small range at launch even with the compatible Guard kits shoring them up. They didn't get their second wave for another two and a half years, which is pretty short in the grand scheme of other armies but a pretty lengthy amount of time for such a limited range, particularly when it was an infantry horde.

Yeah and personally I feel that GSC became more of an army after the second wave. Before that they were mostly an Imperial Guard army with a few mutated units and a few guard models with cult symbols stuck on them. The second wave made the army work because now you had lots of repurposed vehicles and mutated models all together; rather than a single repurposed vehicle along with a regular military armed force

 silverstu wrote:
I can't remember how sisters where released- I thought they got lots of kits after the army box? Was it not 8 boxes and 4 character kits?

Before the actual army redo Sisters got Celestine and the twins for the first book of Gathering Storm leading up to 8th ed, and a lone Sister as a preview for the updated range around July '19.

Sisters then got their army box in November '19 and the full redo of the existing units in January and March '20, with the exception of Missionaries, Preachers, Death Cult Assassins and Crusaders that are to this day using old models, with the priest from Blackstone Fortress being the only one of those with contemporary design even if he's not available separately.

Sisters got a second wave of entirely new units with their 9th ed codex in June '21.

I tend to agree that we should probably not expect Squats to be based on the Sisters release, not the least because there was a previously unthinkable (for GW) marketing campaign attached to it. It also seems that GW of today is reluctant to make both a monopose and multi-part version of the same unit, unlike at the start of 8th ed. They seem to have abandoned the easy build models from that time in favor of just selling monopose units as the real thing for full price these days. I don't think we'll see such models for Squats even though, as I said, that would be the only way for me to believe a Squat launch box would look anything like an army with a fair number of units and visual variety. I think a paltry amount of models from the full multi-part kits in an overpriced box is the more likely way they'll be released.

 NAVARRO wrote:
To me the Kin need to hit the ground running from day one if they want gamers to pick them up.

I have a feeling that GW disagrees with you and thinks that what Squats need is a launch box in advance in limited quantities for people to fight over, with a pre-order promise so that everyone who doesn't get one still commits to buying one, followed by a short gap so interested customers' wallets can recover and buy into the full release after that.

Kind of like they've been doing for years. Squats are good for an April Fools announcement, but aside from that to GW they are not likely to be any different than any other army.

On the point of monobuild vs. full kits, they were doing that in 9th, but not consistently. Assault intercessors, bladeguard vets, and eradicators had simple kits in the starter, but full kits with more options when released on their own. On the other hand, the outrider bikes just got put in their own box and resold as-is.

I don’t think we can say GW is leaning one way or another on this. I think limited starter, full kit with more options is a real possibly. But that’s just me guessing.

 Geifer wrote:

 silverstu wrote:
I can't remember how sisters where released- I thought they got lots of kits after the army box? Was it not 8 boxes and 4 character kits?

Before the actual army redo Sisters got Celestine and the twins for the first book of Gathering Storm leading up to 8th ed, and a lone Sister as a preview for the updated range around July '19.

Sisters then got their army box in November '19 and the full redo of the existing units in January and March '20, with the exception of Missionaries, Preachers, Death Cult Assassins and Crusaders that are to this day using old models, with the priest from Blackstone Fortress being the only one of those with contemporary design even if he's not available separately.

Sisters got a second wave of entirely new units with their 9th ed codex in June '21.

I tend to agree that we should probably not expect Squats to be based on the Sisters release, not the least because there was a previously unthinkable (for GW) marketing campaign attached to it. It also seems that GW of today is reluctant to make both a monopose and multi-part version of the same unit, unlike at the start of 8th ed. They seem to have abandoned the easy build models from that time in favor of just selling monopose units as the real thing for full price these days. I don't think we'll see such models for Squats even though, as I said, that would be the only way for me to believe a Squat launch box would look anything like an army with a fair number of units and visual variety. I think a paltry amount of models from the full multi-part kits in an overpriced box is the more likely way they'll be released.

 NAVARRO wrote:
To me the Kin need to hit the ground running from day one if they want gamers to pick them up.

I have a feeling that GW disagrees with you and thinks that what Squats need is a launch box in advance in limited quantities for people to fight over, with a pre-order promise so that everyone who doesn't get one still commits to buying one, followed by a short gap so interested customers' wallets can recover and buy into the full release after that.

Kind of like they've been doing for years. Squats are good for an April Fools announcement, but aside from that to GW they are not likely to be any different than any other army.

A key thing to point out is that the army boxes are no longer limited so there is no fighting over them, time limited perhaps but not numbers limited.
I also think you've missed that GW are building uptown the release with months of articles which is different to the average release approach .
I agree with @NAVARRO that they will want to hit the ground running for folks to buy into them quickly. I don't think this is anything like a usual release for GW at all.
But we shall see over the coming weeks, still early doors to see where they are going with this .

We saw several new factions released during the last years, Squats will be comparable to Mechanicus with a large wave at first and some followup later. GW's starter waves tend to be quite different in scale, I think the DG release was one of the largest despite the fact that they could have relied on many CSM kits.

Death Guard were also headlining a new edition and most of their armour were existing CSM kits.

I think they'll get a couple more things than GSC, but I doubt it will be a huge initial launch.

 Nevelon wrote:
On the point of monobuild vs. full kits, they were doing that in 9th, but not consistently. Assault intercessors, bladeguard vets, and eradicators had simple kits in the starter, but full kits with more options when released on their own. On the other hand, the outrider bikes just got put in their own box and resold as-is.

I don’t think we can say GW is leaning one way or another on this. I think limited starter, full kit with more options is a real possibly. But that’s just me guessing.

I'd have a much better feeling about that if Squats were part of a new edition. Edition starter sets are the place where you can still reliably expect easy build kind of models. Outside of that it rarely happens. As you say, it's not like GW is fully consistent here, so I can't rule it out for Squats. I just don't think it's likely. But yeah, all guesswork at this time.

 silverstu wrote:
A key thing to point out is that the army boxes are no longer limited so there is no fighting over them, time limited perhaps but not numbers limited.
I also think you've missed that GW are building uptown the release with months of articles which is different to the average release approach .

On the first point, it depends on how you look at it. If the army is popular, there's a chance that GW did not make enough for everyone to get a set on release. The pre-order promise is a solid anti-scalper measure, but it still means that if you have to rely on it, you're not necessarily going to have the army set in hands before the main release, depending on how long it takes GW to make more and where in the queue you are. There's still an element of FOMO there because of that, which I'm sure GW wants to leverage.

On the second point, GW pretty reliably remains in their three month announcement window and previews still tend to happen close to the pre-order date. The shipping delays of late have screwed with this occasionally and some previews happened significantly earlier than that, but not because GW willingly stepped outside the announcement window. Sisters were announced a year and a half before the launch box was released and had preview articles starting immediately with the announcement. It's an entirely different situation.

I'm willing to give Squats a spot outside that three month window because of the practicalities of releasing a full 40k army with the next few months pretty much clogged by Chaos and Horus Heresy while still meeting the April 1 date for the announcement, but I suspect it won't be that far outside. I reckon we'll be able to buy Squats by August or September, even if it's just an advance release.

 Geifer wrote:

 silverstu wrote:
A key thing to point out is that the army boxes are no longer limited so there is no fighting over them, time limited perhaps but not numbers limited.
I also think you've missed that GW are building uptown the release with months of articles which is different to the average release approach .

On the first point, it depends on how you look at it. If the army is popular, there's a chance that GW did not make enough for everyone to get a set on release. The pre-order promise is a solid anti-scalper measure, but it still means that if you have to rely on it, you're not necessarily going to have the army set in hands before the main release, depending on how long it takes GW to make more and where in the queue you are. There's still an element of FOMO there because of that, which I'm sure GW wants to leverage.

On the second point, GW pretty reliably remains in their three month announcement window and previews still tend to happen close to the pre-order date. The shipping delays of late have screwed with this occasionally and some previews happened significantly earlier than that, but not because GW willingly stepped outside the announcement window. Sisters were announced a year and a half before the launch box was released and had preview articles starting immediately with the announcement. It's an entirely different situation.

I'm willing to give Squats a spot outside that three month window because of the practicalities of releasing a full 40k army with the next few months pretty much clogged by Chaos and Horus Heresy while still meeting the April 1 date for the announcement, but I suspect it won't be that far outside. I reckon we'll be able to buy Squats by August or September, even if it's just an advance release.

Yeah fair enough, I had a feeling after the announcement that we would see the first Squats around end of June/July, maybe the Army Box then and then the codex and sets release around September .

I have had a thought that they may use a Killteam release first as there seems to be a lot due for release with the Heresy, lots of Chaos and Guard rules rumours. It would be a very narrative way to release them as the first elements that other factions encounter would be kill teams/scouts/explorers before larger forces head out into non LoV space [thats assuming the LoV have been in hiding and are once agin going out into the galaxy]. They could release the army set [if its coming] in September and then go for a full release October/November.

 Crimson wrote:
25mm scaling looks way more sensible.

You think the 40k dwarves are going to be smaller than the fantasy dwarves? 28mm makes a lot more sense based on the size of kharadron and fireslayers.

Toofast wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
25mm scaling looks way more sensible.

You think the 40k dwarves are going to be smaller than the fantasy dwarves? 28mm makes a lot more sense based on the size of kharadron and fireslayers.

I think he was referring to the bases.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
We saw several new factions released during the last years, Squats will be comparable to Mechanicus with a large wave at first and some followup later. GW's starter waves tend to be quite different in scale, I think the DG release was one of the largest despite the fact that they could have relied on many CSM kits.

Mechanicus started out as 2 separate books, with skitarii coming out with 2 infantry boxes and 2 vehicles, and cult mechanicus coming out with 2 infantry boxes, kastellans, and the techpriest dominus. And the updated knight codex where the warden sprue was added came in between.

I'm hoping for a release like orks got- they had an army box with a couple squads of troops, a character, and a large model unit, then got a start collecting with a new character, infantry squad and unit plus an old vehicle, alongside a handful of new characters, a large model, and a massive tank.

My memory’s going, but the Kharadrons were two-consecutive weeks, IIRC. Goodwin Dark Eldar were also two weeks of big releases, followed by a new unit drip for a few months or something for the ”initial wave”. Of course, they had stats for a bunch of minis that they never released, so that might have been a different company for all that matters.

I think I have the wds for both releases, should probably dig them out instead of trying to remember things…

I don't think anything has come close to the quality of that Goodwin (and the other sculptors involved) Dark Eldar release, either before or since. That would certainly be good if it comes even close to that!

Also back then releases were monthly, not weekly

 kodos wrote:
I hope it won't follow the way Sisters were released
they already had a hard time by missing essential models for a year which could be compensated by using the old ones

This is more or less exactly whats going to happen. There are logistical and manufacturing bottlenecks that set the limit on what a product release can/will look like - as gamers we may have an idea of what a new faction launch should look like in order to produce a well balanced army on the table, but thats all meaningless in the face of the constraints that exist in terms of developing, producing, and delivering those products to market. We have a pretty good indication of what the upper limit for number of new kits released in one block looks like - Sisters, Beastsnaggas, the new Eldar release, etc. as well as Age of Sigmar new faction launches (Lumineth being the most recent I can think of). The only way we get a larger product dump is if its part of a new edition launch set. We can expect, realistically, about 10-12 new kits of varying sizes and types maximum, assuming Leagues of Votann don't end up a limited faction with 8 units total like Harlequins. We are unlikely to get a day 1 drop of 20+ new units needed to make a fully fleshed out roster.

of course we won't see 10+ units in the first wave

the important part for games is to get the essential units outside the Limited Edition boxes in wave 1
if we see 20 single boxes by release but the 1 model that is needed or the Codex is not among them because it is a big box exclusive this is a problem

On the potential release schedule.

I have a theory, and only a theory that when it’s a big release like this, it’s staggered so “one of everything” equates to what GW have found to be the Average Spend on Big Release Weekends.

I dare say more meat can be put on these bones if anyone cares to look back at such releases and do some basic adding up.

I recon T4 1W stat line because that's pretty much been vacated by the marines.
Anyone claiming thats not good enough forgets that vast portions of factions run 1w t3 infantry as basic troops...

So it will then come down to pts and guns

I mean can no one else see another Logan Grimnar santa sled coming ?

Watch them do it.. it will be hilarious.

I'm thinking that they'll make them like dwarfs.
T4 and W1 which may not seem much, but they might have really good armour to make up for it and most of their strength would come from firepower and being stubborn gits.

So basically tough and slow Tau.

What were squats like before? Perhaps we should look at them for an inkling of what GW is going to do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
I recon T4 1W stat line because that's pretty much been vacated by the marines.
Anyone claiming thats not good enough forgets that vast portions of factions run 1w t3 infantry as basic troops...

So it will then come down to pts and guns

I mean can no one else see another Logan Grimnar santa sled coming ?

Watch them do it.. it will be hilarious.

Nah, its going to Fantasy Thorgrim. Just a Squat sitting on a big chair being carried by other squats. Except with power armour and sci-fi doodads.

They’ve got to be slower than ORKS though, surely??? M4?

Andykp wrote:
They’ve got to be slower than ORKS though, surely??? M4?

Probably. Or even M3, if they really want to copy WHFB Dwarfs.

Andykp wrote:
They’ve got to be slower than ORKS though, surely??? M4?

On the other hand:

Necrons and Ratlings are both M5, so I suspect LoV will be as well. Maybe even M7 because of TeChNoLoGy!!!! Those stilt feet must be good for something.

KillerAngel wrote:
Necrons and Ratlings are both M5, so I suspect LoV will be as well. Maybe even M7 because of TeChNoLoGy!!!! Those stilt feet must be good for something.

It would be interesting if GW went full Mobile Infantry and gave Squats jetpacks.

They had hoverboards at the start.

But then, everyone used Shuriken catapults, and had jetbikes too.

['Squats on a hoverboard' is an exercise thing now though.]

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:
Necrons and Ratlings are both M5, so I suspect LoV will be as well. Maybe even M7 because of TeChNoLoGy!!!! Those stilt feet must be good for something.

It would be interesting if GW went full Mobile Infantry and gave Squats jetpacks.

Spoiler:

complete with portable tactical nuke launchers

Doogie Howser: Would you like to know more?

Actually excited to see what the Fast Attack options are going to look like. Drop Pod assault? Winged Jetpacks that put the bird winged Ad Mech to shame? So many options...

KillerAngel wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:
Necrons and Ratlings are both M5, so I suspect LoV will be as well. Maybe even M7 because of TeChNoLoGy!!!! Those stilt feet must be good for something.

It would be interesting if GW went full Mobile Infantry and gave Squats jetpacks.

Spoiler:

complete with portable tactical nuke launchers

Doogie Howser: Would you like to know more?

Actually excited to see what the Fast Attack options are going to look like. Drop Pod assault? Winged Jetpacks that put the bird winged Ad Mech to shame? So many options...

Hoping bikes and trikes but not expecting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:

Andykp wrote:
They’ve got to be slower than ORKS though, surely??? M4?

On the other hand:

That made me lol. Have an exalt.

 Skinnereal wrote:
They had hoverboards at the start.

Squat hoverboards? Squat hoverboards. (Art originally from Rogue Trader)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was looking at catalog of the Squat miniatures that GW made since they will turn to the old range for inspiration. There was some stuff that was noted as "designed for 2nd Edition 40K but the squat race was withdrawn prior to their release". I guess just because the models were never released, it doesn't mean they couldn't take ideas from them.


This unreleased 2nd edition model definitely look like a Viking or fantasy dwarf with a bolter. Actually it reminds me of a Blood Bowl dwarf too. There was some cool artwork too of two Squats like this fighting some chaos marines. I think it was in the first edition battle manual. Very different from the "1st edtion" stuff. Interesting to see though... GW was struggling to come up with something different before shelving it all. After seeing the new model, I cant see them creating anything like this...beyond maybe some design cues here and there (belt buckle, etc) or maybe more for a special character.




Ok, these unreleased guys were labeled as "Cyberslayers". Very much from fantasy. The interesting thing here is that the 1st edition range didn't have anything for unique units... there were the guardsmen Squats... and the fat-biker Squats. So if that's needed for the Votann, this is an idea they might reuse? What do you guys think?

The old Inquisitor magazine (#15) published some 2nd edition rules for Squats that included rules for "Berzerkers" (ie slayers). My old local FLGS allowed it for Squat players. As far as homebrew codexes go, it wasn't too weird. For rules, they had two power weapons and a 5+ invulnerable save. I guess they didn't wear much other than a belt with a force field generator on it. They got bonuses for charging as well.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the potential release schedule.

I have a theory, and only a theory that when it’s a big release like this, it’s staggered so “one of everything” equates to what GW have found to be the Average Spend on Big Release Weekends.

I dare say more meat can be put on these bones if anyone cares to look back at such releases and do some basic adding up.

Mmh. I’m thinking campaign book with the first wave and full codex with second to match logistics to the ”no rules without models” fixation. Or multiple campaign books, as two waves seems a bit low…

 Argive wrote:
I recon T4 1W stat line because that's pretty much been vacated by the marines.
Anyone claiming thats not good enough forgets that vast portions of factions run 1w t3 infantry as basic troops...

M5 WS3 BS3 S4 T5 1W 2A 9Ld 3+ Save is my guess.
I could see S3 T4 but don't think Dwarves would like being less tough than Orks.
I could also see 2Ws on the first statline, as they go for an elite technological army.
The more like Space Marines they are, the more they will probably sell.
A Xenos Space Marine faction would seem like a good money maker.

gravitywell wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
They had hoverboards at the start.

Squat hoverboards? Squat hoverboards. (Art originally from Rogue Trader)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was looking at catalog of the Squat miniatures that GW made since they will turn to the old range for inspiration. There was some stuff that was noted as "designed for 2nd Edition 40K but the squat race was withdrawn prior to their release". I guess just because the models were never released, it doesn't mean they couldn't take ideas from them.


This unreleased 2nd edition model definitely look like a Viking or fantasy dwarf with a bolter. Actually it reminds me of a Blood Bowl dwarf too. There was some cool artwork too of two Squats like this fighting some chaos marines. I think it was in the first edition battle manual. Very different from the "1st edtion" stuff. Interesting to see though... GW was struggling to come up with something different before shelving it all. After seeing the new model, I cant see them creating anything like this...beyond maybe some design cues here and there (belt buckle, etc) or maybe more for a special character.




Ok, these unreleased guys were labeled as "Cyberslayers". Very much from fantasy. The interesting thing here is that the 1st edition range didn't have anything for unique units... there were the guardsmen Squats... and the fat-biker Squats. So if that's needed for the Votann, this is an idea they might reuse? What do you guys think?

The old Inquisitor magazine (#15) published some 2nd edition rules for Squats that included rules for "Berzerkers" (ie slayers). My old local FLGS allowed it for Squat players. As far as homebrew codexes go, it wasn't too weird. For rules, they had two power weapons and a 5+ invulnerable save. I guess they didn't wear much other than a belt with a force field generator on it. They got bonuses for charging as well.

Interesting how some of the design aesthetics were shared or transferred over to Orks, 2nd edition Zodrog in particular

KillerAngel wrote:

Actually excited to see what the Fast Attack options are going to look like. Drop Pod assault? Winged Jetpacks that put the bird winged Ad Mech to shame? So many options...

Hovering robots shaped like kegs that buff the League and debuff enemy models.

This release could go the Custodes route as well. If they just make the leaders an accessory part in the troops box, they could get up to three leaders type, plus three infantry/bikes in just three boxes.

If squats have a walker, I'd like to see it be somewhat a blend of a Contemptor and a Crisis Suit in looks, but with a focuss on close combat.

EightFoldPath wrote:

M5 WS3 BS3 S4 T5 1W 2A 9Ld 3+ Save is my guess.

Oof, I'm not sure I'd like that. Seems too elite, they need to fit the middle ground between horde and elite.
M5 WS/BS4+ S3 T4 1W 2A 7LD Sv4+

Andykp wrote:

Hoping bikes and trikes but not expecting.

I think hoverbikes isn't a stretch.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Hovering robots shaped like kegs that buff the League and debuff enemy models.

Ha! Do ale consumption markers need to be a thing?

KillerAngel wrote:

Ha! Do ale consumption markers need to be a thing?

Squat apothecary equivalent is just a dude with a keg on his back to give a FNP aura

The context for this is that I've always loved Squats and I've got about an army's worth of original GW squats (with some Harlequin, Ramshackle, etc auxiliaries), mostly unpainted. It's sort of my paint-some-day dream army.

So many mixed feelings.
First, I love that GW is bringing Squats into the universe again. However, the figure I see suggests that the design is a mix of Tau and Mantic Forgefathers. Not even close to the RT aesthetic. I don't even care that they feel an update is necessary, but the one thing that Squats shouldn't be is shiny, and this guy looks shiny.

The upside is that if the new aesthetic is dominant, I'll be very much free from the temptation to buy more GW figures. This may likely be the case anyway since scale creep is a thing and old squats are veeery smaaalll and unlikely to be compatible with any new range. On the other hand, if the new army units are plausibly representable by RT-era squat figures (I do have a fair number of RT plastics that could be armed alternately), there will be a real temptation to start painting these guys and buy into whatever edition of 40k we're in now.

I will wait and see. Got alot of other projects to keep me busy in the meantime and my squats aren't going anywhere.

I keep hearing people wanting the Squats to have anti-grave tech/vehicles. While I agree that I'd like to see some more advanced human-ish tech, I don't think this is a good fit for them. If their old fluff is still valid, they like higher grav worlds, and these places wouldn't really be conductive to flight at all. Now, I'm not saying that Squats should have zero flying units, only that I think this is one faction where it should be on the rare side.

KillerAngel wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:
Necrons and Ratlings are both M5, so I suspect LoV will be as well. Maybe even M7 because of TeChNoLoGy!!!! Those stilt feet must be good for something.

It would be interesting if GW went full Mobile Infantry and gave Squats jetpacks.

Spoiler:

complete with portable tactical nuke launchers

Doogie Howser: Would you like to know more?

Actually excited to see what the Fast Attack options are going to look like. Drop Pod assault? Winged Jetpacks that put the bird winged Ad Mech to shame? So many options...

I'm hoping something exoticish, like a monowheel bike with a driver and gunner pod on either side of a large central wheel.

KillerAngel wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

M5 WS3 BS3 S4 T5 1W 2A 9Ld 3+ Save is my guess.

Oof, I'm not sure I'd like that. Seems too elite, they need to fit the middle ground between horde and elite.
M5 WS/BS4+ S3 T4 1W 2A 7LD Sv4+

Andykp wrote:

Hoping bikes and trikes but not expecting.

I think hoverbikes isn't a stretch.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Hovering robots shaped like kegs that buff the League and debuff enemy models.

Ha! Do ale consumption markers need to be a thing?

The original Squat statline was
M3,WS4, BS3, S3, T4, W1, A1, LD9, Sv6+ 85pts/5 models for base
M3, WS7, BS6, S4, T5, W3, A3, LD10 Sv4+ 74pts/model for Warlord/ Army Commander.

If they start there, I don't see too many issues.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:
Necrons and Ratlings are both M5, so I suspect LoV will be as well. Maybe even M7 because of TeChNoLoGy!!!! Those stilt feet must be good for something.

It would be interesting if GW went full Mobile Infantry and gave Squats jetpacks.

Spoiler:

complete with portable tactical nuke launchers

Finally, a use for all those Space Marine combat knives!

gravitywell wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
They had hoverboards at the start.

Squat hoverboards? Squat hoverboards. (Art originally from Rogue Trader)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was looking at catalog of the Squat miniatures that GW made since they will turn to the old range for inspiration. There was some stuff that was noted as "designed for 2nd Edition 40K but the squat race was withdrawn prior to their release". I guess just because the models were never released, it doesn't mean they couldn't take ideas from them.


This unreleased 2nd edition model definitely look like a Viking or fantasy dwarf with a bolter. Actually it reminds me of a Blood Bowl dwarf too. There was some cool artwork too of two Squats like this fighting some chaos marines. I think it was in the first edition battle manual. Very different from the "1st edtion" stuff. Interesting to see though... GW was struggling to come up with something different before shelving it all. After seeing the new model, I cant see them creating anything like this...beyond maybe some design cues here and there (belt buckle, etc) or maybe more for a special character.




Ok, these unreleased guys were labeled as "Cyberslayers". Very much from fantasy. The interesting thing here is that the 1st edition range didn't have anything for unique units... there were the guardsmen Squats... and the fat-biker Squats. So if that's needed for the Votann, this is an idea they might reuse? What do you guys think?

The old Inquisitor magazine (#15) published some 2nd edition rules for Squats that included rules for "Berzerkers" (ie slayers). My old local FLGS allowed it for Squat players. As far as homebrew codexes go, it wasn't too weird. For rules, they had two power weapons and a 5+ invulnerable save. I guess they didn't wear much other than a belt with a force field generator on it. They got bonuses for charging as well.

I actually had 3 squats on hoverboards back in the day, thought I had a a photo somewhere, but can't find it. Anyway I used the boards from the Judge Dredd Skysurfers.

http://solegends.com/citjd/jd13skysurfers.jpg

If anything, Squats needs tracks and wheels.

Anti-grav? What dwarf would trust not having his two feet firmly on the ground! Makes it easier to aim or swing a hammer!

Leave flying to the Karachawhatever overlords.

Their armour look like 4+ armour to me.
Better than Guardsman, worse than Space Marines.
They'll probably have an elite unit with a 3+.

 Easy E wrote:
If anything, Squats needs tracks and wheels.

Anti-grav? What dwarf would trust not having his two feet firmly on the ground! Makes it easier to aim or swing a hammer!

Leave flying to the Karachawhatever overlords.

I agree with this. To me having their vehicles be flying / anti-grav would clash with the whole industrial rugged miner idea. The idea of "more DAoT things left" just ending up translating into more hover stuff would be quite a let down i think, I'd much prefer if they had more advanced/sophisticated technology without having to resort to that. Eldar and Dark Eldar have anti-grav for all their vehicles and have jetbikes, Custodes have Jetbikes, Space Marines have Land speeders and had jetbikes, Primaris Marines have plenty of anti-grav designs, Tau have anti-grav for all their vehicles. I hope Votann comes across as more of like an upgrade of Imperial Guard and Genestealer Cult designs than yet another "Look at how advanced they are, they have anti-grav everywhere!" army.

Almost all the classic squat reference material shows them having heavy tracked vehicles that even out-class the Imperium for insane chunky design and huge profiles.

I could see them having some kind of hover-tech for aircraft, they did have a huge zeppelin design unit. So instead of the sleek and agile anti-grav of the Eldar and Tau.



That said there's been a lot of water under the bridge since those early designs and GW might think of a different approach to give them a unique style. Heck perhaps GW pulls out the mecha-suits angle and instead of the more agile eldar or the jetpack utility tau; the Squats go for the full thick heavy lumbering mechs.

Not sure what I want for them, I don't want them to look and feel like GSC or Guard.
The anti-grav/ hover vehicle I could see looking at some sci-fi art. Something like huge floating slabs/monoliths of metal- like a floating sand crawler or the Atredies ships from Dune. Something with a sense of great weight and presence so not brick -like marine vehicles or the organic forms of Tau and Eldar. Could see tracked vehicles as well, again the Sandcrawler really could work- lumbering fortress which they deploy from.
Dwarfs need mobility though to be fun play otherwise they get stuck as a gun line which gets tiresome really quick.

 silverstu wrote:
Not sure what I want for them, I don't want them to look and feel like GSC or Guard.

I think that's a big thing and might be one reason its taken GW a while. Guard already do the whole heavy tank army and GSC already do the mining vehicle and design angle.

Squats 100% need to have their own identity on the tabletop that allows them to stand out.

The LoV model looks Starcraft lite, so I'm kinda expecting their vehicles to also look Starcraft lite. So likely treads and mechs and even some hovercraft, but not bricks like Imperial vehicles.

I wouldn't be adverse to them having this sort of bike (minus the launching part).



Instead of flight packs, perhaps squats should have burrow packs? Lot easier to keep from getting shot when you're surrounded by walls of earth (or phasing through the ground), then pop up in front of the enemy, instead of sailing through the sky where you're exposed.

Also, I imagine we'll see a fair bit of prosthetics, and with their proclivity for tech, some units may have gone the Admech route and replaced their legs with metal prosthesis for better marching endurance.


Finally, I don't know if anyone noticed, but in the teaser trailer, when they were showing the inside of the Imperial ships, there were signs it had been destroyed by some sort of Tyranid attack (we at least see a scything talon floating next to the guardsman body)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:


Interesting how some of the design aesthetics were shared or transferred over to Orks, 2nd edition Zodrog in particular

This might not be coincidence. Might be that the original masters were Squats, but might have had a head swap or tweak to turn it into an Ork.

That and don't forget those were hand sculpted and had to be then hand cut into parts to be made into moulds. It was also from the earlier days so chances are once GW found a style or pose that "worked" it would get copied into other models by the designers because they'd know what angles they could work with.

The "spear one hand gun raised in the other" is a classic style that we see repeated over quite a few models from that era.

 dan2026 wrote:
Their armour look like 4+ armour to me.
Better than Guardsman, worse than Space Marines.
They'll probably have an elite unit with a 3+.

If this is a 4+?


Then so are bloody Genestealer Neophytes and Guardsmen. Scions would be a 3+.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Their armour look like 4+ armour to me.
Better than Guardsman, worse than Space Marines.
They'll probably have an elite unit with a 3+.

If this is a 4+?

Spoiler:

Then so are bloody Genestealer Neophytes and Guardsmen. Scions would be a 3+.

Full torso hard armor with soft arms/legs has been classic 4+ carapace armor since forever.

Gurardsmen have lighter vests, can’t speak to neophytes.

But the new guy is solidly in 4+ territory.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Their armour look like 4+ armour to me.
Better than Guardsman, worse than Space Marines.
They'll probably have an elite unit with a 3+.

If this is a 4+?

Spoiler:

Then so are bloody Genestealer Neophytes and Guardsmen. Scions would be a 3+.

Full torso hard armor with soft arms/legs has been classic 4+ carapace armor since forever.

Except when it's represented differently, I guess?

Gurardsmen have lighter vests

Nope. They have Flak Armor. Flak Vests are their own thing, which had rules tying them to "Jungle Fighters" for a time. 6+ save but gained some bonuses.

can’t speak to neophytes.

It's the same gear as the Leaguer's, for all intents and purposes. The main difference is a few extra plates in lieu of the ribbing for the chest armor.

And reminder:
For some stupid reason this Neophyte is considered to be as protected wearing mining gear as a Cadian or Vostroyan(who were said to be wearing carapace armor).

But the new guy is solidly in 4+ territory.

Then a lot of units need to be adjusted.

Because this?

This is not what you described for Carapace Armor.

That has a lot of unarmored parts. It's not even full torso armor. It's basically a couple of plates strapped to the front of a voidsuit.

This looks like a Squat .


This is a fat bearded bloke cosplaying a Tau.


And that's me done on the topic.

Thank god. We could not have survived without such a useful hot take on a controversial subject. We can only hope you live up to your promise and never speak of this matter again.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's the same gear as the Leaguer's, for all intents and purposes. The main difference is a few extra plates in lieu of the ribbing for the chest armor.

And the plates are thicker, and with better coverage.

Thus as the Neophyte already has a 5+, the better armored Kin should have a 4+.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
This looks like a Squat .


This is a fat bearded bloke cosplaying a Tau.


And that's me done on the topic.

That top one was never released so can’t really be used as the “archetype” squat. These are what squats looked like.

That new guy, he looks good to me. Better than abandoned second edition fantasy dwarf with a gun.

Coverage isn't all that matters when it comes to armor. Material counts. For a real world example, a level 3a stab vest gives you far more coverage than level 4 plates, but only one of those will stop a rifle round. Craftsmanship and quality of the material matter, too. There's a world of difference between old steel body armor that was only good for shrapnel and modern AR550 single press armor that will easily stop a direct hit at close range from a .30-06.
Squat and GSC gear may look similar and have the same origins, but GSC gear is made for civilian use to protect from hazardous work. I wouldn't expect it to stop a bullet as well as actual battle armor can.

No One Important wrote:
modern AR550 single press armor that will easily stop a direct hit at close range from a .30-06.

Sure but the spalling will kill you. Steel plates suck which is why we haven't issued them in 30 years. Ceramic is much better and has the same stopping power

Spalling has been fairly well solved by modern steel plates. Not the average ar500 plates for sure, but the higher end pieces come with very effective spall coats as standard that act very similar to either a thin layer of ceramic or a layer of weak plastic armor that allows for some give or captures the spalling in event of partial penetration and shattering on the steel layer.
At this point, the value of ceramics over steel is in the weight, cost (compared to high end steel armor), and that it can stop things even the best steel can't. At least for the first few hits.
Plastics are well on the way to surpassing them both. Lighter than either, no spalling, no powdering. Eventually should combine the safety of ceramic with the durability of steel.

Andykp wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
This looks like a Squat .


This is a fat bearded bloke cosplaying a Tau.


And that's me done on the topic.

That top one was never released so can’t really be used as the “archetype” squat. These are what squats looked like.

That new guy, he looks good to me. Better than abandoned second edition fantasy dwarf with a gun.

Most of the catalog pic you posted isn't really representative of the majority of the range either. The warriors are more representative.

I'm inclined to agree with Andykp. Tau/genestealer squats are pretty uninspiring.

Has anyone else in the preceding 30 pages noted that they have more in common with Mantic Forgefathers than with classic Squats.

I bought some Forgefathers but eventually just redoubled my efforts to acquire more Squats.

Andykp wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
This looks like a Squat .


This is a fat bearded bloke cosplaying a Tau.


And that's me done on the topic.

That top one was never released so can’t really be used as the “archetype” squat. These are what squats looked like.

That new guy, he looks good to me. Better than abandoned second edition fantasy dwarf with a gun.

I can see the unreleased model fitting a mental image for a lot of people... but GW wasn't feeling it back in 2nd edition or now, based on that new model. I like that new model too. It feels like it fits in with the design direction GW is going with.

I'm actually wondering if the new model we've seen is a special unit of some kind. A lot of people have been assuming its a standard trooper... but what if it's like a "Guild Engineer Salvager". The shadowed models one has a pickaxe, and another maybe a shoulder mounted mining laser. We may yet see the standard trooper? Who knows!

For those discussing armor that catalog pic (I think from WD 111) has a nice mix of old stuff in it. Top square is mostly 6+ with the Hearthguard and Warlord having a carapace breastplate and helm giving them 5+. I think that was upped to 4+ in 2nd edition. Bottom right is the Exo-armor which was 2+ and the bottom middle is 3+. Personally I can see the new model being 4+, especially if it's some sort of special engineer unit rather than a standard trooper.

No One Important wrote:
Spalling has been fairly well solved by modern steel plates. Not the average ar500 plates for sure, but the higher end pieces come with very effective spall coats as standard that act very similar to either a thin layer of ceramic or a layer of weak plastic armor that allows for some give or captures the spalling in event of partial penetration and shattering on the steel layer.
At this point, the value of ceramics over steel is in the weight, cost (compared to high end steel armor), and that it can stop things even the best steel can't. At least for the first few hits.
Plastics are well on the way to surpassing them both. Lighter than either, no spalling, no powdering. Eventually should combine the safety of ceramic with the durability of steel.

The anti spall coating is just truck bed liner and flakes off really quick. I would much rather be wearing ceramic if I'm gonna take multiple hits. The weight difference is also huge, my Lv4 ceramics are about half the weight of steel plates. I've seen some nasty spall injuries on guys in ME/Africa that were using makeshift steel armor. They still took a bullet, just in 100 tiny fragments all over their neck and face.

gravitywell wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
This looks like a Squat .


This is a fat bearded bloke cosplaying a Tau.


And that's me done on the topic.

That top one was never released so can’t really be used as the “archetype” squat. These are what squats looked like.

That new guy, he looks good to me. Better than abandoned second edition fantasy dwarf with a gun.

I can see the unreleased model fitting a mental image for a lot of people... but GW wasn't feeling it back in 2nd edition or now, based on that new model. I like that new model too. It feels like it fits in with the design direction GW is going with.

Squats weren't removed because of their Sci-fi Fantasy Dwarf aspects. They were removed because they "felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice"; removed because they weren't the dwarfs archetype done properly but instead they'd turned what in Fantasy and other settings was a "proud and noble race" into something with an entirely silly name and given them an absurd biker theming. The way they were in Epic with their big well-crafted war-machines to fit in with the artisan aspects of the Dwarf archetype was said to be more in line with how they wanted them to be.

I'm actually wondering if the new model we've seen is a special unit of some kind. A lot of people have been assuming its a standard trooper... but what if it's like a "Guild Engineer Salvager". The shadowed models one has a pickaxe, and another maybe a shoulder mounted mining laser. We may yet see the standard trooper? who knows!

No, people aren't assuming it's a standard trooper, we've been told it's a standard trooper in the reveal article;

...as you can see from even this basic trooper.