There has been a debate for quite some time to do with the missing primarchs and what happened to them. Some people believe that these primarchs were traitors and were killed at the beginning of the heresy. If this is true then what happened to legions 2 and 11. The Horus heresy books suggest that they were traitors or destroyed by the chaos gods. I am here to provide a new theory that hopefully will provide a different light on this mystery. I am open to criticism on this so here it is:
The missing legions are the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch chapters. My evidence for the grey knights is in Codex:space marines (5th edition) which states in the grey knight background that records suggest that they may have been active during the great crusade. Acting in secret to destroy rogue psykers. But my main evidence is that the purifiers are hiding a great sarcophagus in their fortress monastery. It is said to be to big to contain a space marine so it remains possible that the being inside is the lost primarch. My final evidence is the grey knight power armour is modified mk 3 iron armour.
My theory for the deathwatch is that they have been said to have been assassinating xenos leaders since the Dawn of the imperium of man and that they're first leader the great hunter was said to be as big as a dreadnought.
So what do you think. Please reply with your thoughts
Thank you for your time

UPDATE:
The blood ravens are also noted as being one of the possible missing legions but this is in fact not true. Their primarch is rogal dorn. They are imperial fist successors as they possess three of the imperial fists main relics. Their battle barge, dorns mantle artificer armour and rogals blade power sword and on the world of Kronus their is a shrine dedicated to his honour with blood raven iconography on it.

Legions 2 and 11 are hinted at having been merged with the Ultras, but it isn't certain.

The Grey Knughts were formed after the start of the Heresy by Malcador. That's what Garro is up to in the audiobooks.

As for the Deathwatch, I don't know much about them, so it's an interesting theory!

The Grey Knight codex refers to the Grey Knights as part of the second founding. Chapter 666.

The Deathwatch have always been a random collection of marines from different chapters.

The missing two primarchs are also refered to by characters in the HH novels as "The Lost" and "The Purged".

I would think "The Purged" would be the legion that was "supposedly" killed off by the Space Wolves.

As for "The Lost", perhaps they were actually lost. Either in a tragic warp accident, gene-seed failure or turned to the runious powers.

The grey knights are officially a second founding chapter but even during the great crusade the emporor forbid anyone from going to the Titan monastery. Also in rogue trader rulebook in the section where it tells us of two missing primarchs and legions it quotes dorm saying before the battle for terra that it is suspicious that two battle barges were leaving Titan base. Further enforcing my theory

Castiel wrote:
The Grey Knights were formed after the start of the Heresy by Malcador. That's what Garro is up to in the audiobooks.

Again I'll say this.

I guess we'll never know. The real reason for them is so that players can use them for the basis of their own chapters. Of course that is now frowned upon. Due to the Mary-Sue Marines that often result.

Thesanguinesword wrote:
The missing legions are the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch chapters. My evidence for the grey knights is in Codex:space marines (5th edition) which states in the grey knight background that records suggest that they may have been active during the great crusade. Acting in secret to destroy rogue psykers. But my main evidence is that the purifiers are hiding a great sarcophagus in their fortress monastery. It is said to be to big to contain a space marine so it remains possible that the being inside is the lost primarch. My final evidence is the grey knight power armour is modified mk 3 iron armour.
My theory for the deathwatch is that they have been said to have been assassinating xenos leaders since the Dawn of the imperium of man and that they're first leader the great hunter was said to be as big as a dreadnought.
So what do you think. Please reply with your thoughts
Thank you for your time

I don't think there are 10,000 grey knights and 10,000 death watch running around. The origins of the grey knights has already been pretty must established, and the death watch arent their own chapter, the recruits for death watch are taken from existing chapters.

DeffDred wrote:
As for "The Lost", perhaps they were actually lost. Either in a tragic warp accident, gene-seed failure or turned to the runious powers.

I just hope so...

nah, the Blood Ravens are quite clearly loyalist 1k sons if we add everything up.

Brother Coa wrote:

Spoiler:

Maybe they are in fact Blood Ravens?

I just hope so...

Nope.

Definite nope.

They are a paradox of sorts; left out so players can make their own yet players who do so are generally the target of much rage and therefore they are left out by the players as well.

According to most HH books, ALL recorded history of the existence of the 2nd and 11th Legions are gone... So what we DO know about them is that something so horrible and wrong happened that the Emperor felt it necessary to expunge them from existence. There is even a section of one of the HH books where a Primarch is in a hall filled with statues of himself and his brothers, and thinks to himself "what might have been" had the 2 empty plinths been filled and they allowed to continue in existence. This to me points to the Primarchs knowing their "missing" brothers, some may have even met the guys, but they either did something, or something happened.

Because we have records of the GK, and we know who the Death Watch are, we KNOW for a fact that these are not the 2 missing legions.

It could be that the writers ran out of "unique" primarch and legion traits to give out after 18 of them, couldnt be fethed to come up with 2 more, and told players to "make them up" which as n0t_u has pointed out, draws derision and scorn from most players.

Remulus wrote:

Thesanguinesword wrote:
The missing legions are the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch chapters. My evidence for the grey knights is in Codex:space marines (5th edition) which states in the grey knight background that records suggest that they may have been active during the great crusade. Acting in secret to destroy rogue psykers. But my main evidence is that the purifiers are hiding a great sarcophagus in their fortress monastery. It is said to be to big to contain a space marine so it remains possible that the being inside is the lost primarch. My final evidence is the grey knight power armour is modified mk 3 iron armour.
My theory for the deathwatch is that they have been said to have been assassinating xenos leaders since the Dawn of the imperium of man and that they're first leader the great hunter was said to be as big as a dreadnought.
So what do you think. Please reply with your thoughts
Thank you for your time

Remulus wrote:I don't think there are 10,000 grey knights and 10,000 death watch running around. The origins of the grey knights has already been pretty must established, and the death watch arent their own chapter, the recruits for death watch are taken from existing chapters.

The grey knights could not have more than 1000 at anyone time as they are all psykers and as you know psykers are rare and as such if they were around during the great crusade it is unlikely they had even 1000 members at that time. As for the deathwatch I believe many of their number were given to the ultramarines hence the ultramarines being prime donators to the deathwatch

Presumably the Emperor created the legions to perform specific functions. If we narrow down what the original legion's functions are, it'll give us a clue to the nature of the missing legions.

1 - Dark Angels: The first legion, highly devout warriors from a death world, used to inspire fear in heretics (pre GK/Inquisition remember)
2 - ???
3 - Emperors Children: Exceptional ability, but vain. Highly decorative, extravagant style. Used to convey the awe and majesty of the Emperor's finest.
4 - Iron Warriors: Siege masters, used to destroy heavily fortified opponents
5 - White Scars: Tribal culture, fast striking. Used to combat fast moving enemies (like the Eldar)
6 - Space Wolves: Ferocious warriors, hunter culture, fiercely loyal. Used to match Ork ferrocity and as 'executioners' to the other legions.
7 - Imperial Fists: Stoic masters of defense, the antithesis of the Iron Warriors. Used to protect the Imperium's most important locations.
8 - Night Lords: Fiercely secular. Maybe used to spread the Emperor's atheistic message? (Worship a god and the Night Lords will get you!)
9 - Blood Angels: Fierce warriors with a strong gene seed. Perhaps the Emperor imagined them as the 'protectors' of his gene seed methods.
10 - Iron Hands: Lots of bionics/tech upgrades. Perhaps a 'guinea pig' for future space marine upgrades, or a diplomatic link between the Emperor and the Adeptus Mechanicus (they were originally formed to be independent from the rest of Imperium) .
11 - ???
12 - World Eaters: The 'shock and awe' legion. Even the Wolves don't have the ferocity of the World Eaters. Perhaps designed to be an 'attack dog' by the Emperor?
13 - Ultramarines: A shining example of the Emperor's combat doctrine. Reliable. Used as an example of obedience to the other legions.
14 - Death Guard/Dusk Raiders - Stoic and unrelenting, conveying the futility of fighting the Great Crusade.
15 - Thousand Sons: The Emperors experiment in breeding a legion of warrior-psykers.
16 - Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus - a legion created using low-class human stock from hive worlds. A message to the universe that anyone can not only becoming a fearsome soldier of the Emperor, but they can fight with pride in his Warmaster's legion.
17 - Word Bearers - Even more pious than the Dark Angels, perhaps conceived to combat highly religious enemies (fight fire with fire?)
18 - Salamanders: Close quarters shooting specialists, perfect for fighting in cities.
19 - Raven Guard: Similar to White Scars and Salamanders - fast striking guerilla fighters. Perfect for jungle warfare.
20 - Alpha Legion - The original 'covert ops' legion.

So we have a wide array of specializations. Sure, Space Marines can fight in any environment, but the Emperor probably wouldn't have asked the Alpha Legion to fortify a threatened Forge World would he? Remember that the Primarchs were created at the same time, so there probably wouldn't be any redundancy between legions.

From what I can see, the obvious gaps in the legion's traits are water-based specialists and an airborn legion for when the Imperial Navy just can't cut it. Having said that, Dorn's musings in the statue room indicate the missing legion's purpose was a lot more profound than that. Maybe the second legion was destined to be the legion that conquered the webway?

ClosetRoller wrote: and an airborn legion

All marines are aerial assault troops. It's their standard doctrine.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ClosetRoller wrote: and an airborn legion

All marines are aerial assault troops. It's their standard doctrine.

They're airbourne foot troops sure, but what about actual high-speed aerial combat? Jump packs only last so long, and drop pods only go down. Thunderhawks and Stormravens aren't designed for high speed/high altitude combat.

ClosetRoller wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

ClosetRoller wrote: and an airborn legion

All marines are aerial assault troops. It's their standard doctrine.

They're airbourne foot troops sure, but what about actual high-speed aerial combat? Jump packs only last so long, and drop pods only go down. Thunderhawks and Stormravens aren't designed for high speed/high altitude combat.

Marines are elite shock troops. They are good pilots but can achieve much more as shock troops.

ClosetRoller wrote:
8 - Night Lords: Fiercely secular. Maybe used to spread the Emperor's atheistic message? (Worship a god and the Night Lords will get you!)
9 - Blood Angels: Fierce warriors with a strong gene seed. Perhaps the Emperor imagined them as the 'protectors' of his gene seed methods.

19 - Raven Guard: Similar to White Scars and Salamanders - fast striking guerilla fighters. Perfect for jungle warfare.
20 - Alpha Legion---

I would argue these guys to some extent... The Night Lords fluff indicates that Curze was a very vigilante "batman" with a Jack the Ripper edge... To me this represents more of a Judge Dredd sort of aspect, where the Law is the Law, and if you cross it, you WILL pay, and pay dearly.

Blood Angels have been described as artistic, yet coming from fiercely tribal society, they value art and beauty, yet do not display the vanity of the EC. I would think that their "designed" role was more in line with duplicating the EC, as far as preserving the arts, etc. but they also have a tendency to fight with jump packs and up close (if current fluff is any indication of their legionary tactics)

The Raven Guard are indeed guerillas, however, VERY different from White Scars and Salamanders. The RG prefer striking the most critical asset of the enemy, destroying their ability to fight, before they begin to lose too many assets in turn. These guys are much more like our current Navy SEALS, or Green Berets in use. The RG aren't particularly "jungle fighters" because their planet is heavily industrialized and urban, rather than wild, and unkempt by humans.

The Alpha Legion, in fact, represent more of an espionage and infiltration aspect of war. If it comes to shooting, sure they are good for it (they are marines for Feths sake!), but to them ( at least in the HH novels) something went wrong if they end up in a true firefight.. In Legion, there is a scene where a group of them ambush and slaughter people, but they set it up to where there was no real chance for them to take losses. However, they do prefer to infiltrate and sabotage, rather than actually engage an enemy. This is similar in vein to the Raven Guard, but even less fighting than the XIX Legion.

While that's true, its not too hard to imagine a situation in a planet's atmosphere where Imperial Navy fighter pilots were outclassed and Marines were unable to strike a ground based target. A legion doctrine that supported extended high-altitude air-to-air combat would be a powerful tool. Like I said in my original post, I doubt this is actually an answer to the missing chapters, but it's interesting to note the potential chink in astartes armour.

I think what's more likely is that the 2nd legion were sent into the webway, where some untold horror spelt their doom.

ClosetRoller wrote:While that's true, its not too hard to imagine a situation in a planet's atmosphere where Imperial Navy fighter pilots were outclassed and Marines are unable to strike a ground based target. A legion doctrine that supported extended high-altitude air-to-air combat would be a powerful tool. Like I said in my original post, I doubt this is actually an answer to the missing chapters, but it's interesting to note the potential chink in astartes armour.

I think what's more likely is that the 2nd legion were sent into the webway, where some untold horror spelt their doom.

There is some small evidence that they were rinsed by the SW...

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

ClosetRoller wrote:
8 - Night Lords: Fiercely secular. Maybe used to spread the Emperor's atheistic message? (Worship a god and the Night Lords will get you!)
9 - Blood Angels: Fierce warriors with a strong gene seed. Perhaps the Emperor imagined them as the 'protectors' of his gene seed methods.

19 - Raven Guard: Similar to White Scars and Salamanders - fast striking guerilla fighters. Perfect for jungle warfare.
20 - Alpha Legion---

I would argue these guys to some extent... The Night Lords fluff indicates that Curze was a very vigilante "batman" with a Jack the Ripper edge... To me this represents more of a Judge Dredd sort of aspect, where the Law is the Law, and if you cross it, you WILL pay, and pay dearly.

Blood Angels have been described as artistic, yet coming from fiercely tribal society, they value art and beauty, yet do not display the vanity of the EC. I would think that their "designed" role was more in line with duplicating the EC, as far as preserving the arts, etc. but they also have a tendency to fight with jump packs and up close (if current fluff is any indication of their legionary tactics)

The Raven Guard are indeed guerillas, however, VERY different from White Scars and Salamanders. The RG prefer striking the most critical asset of the enemy, destroying their ability to fight, before they begin to lose too many assets in turn. These guys are much more like our current Navy SEALS, or Green Berets in use. The RG aren't particularly "jungle fighters" because their planet is heavily industrialized and urban, rather than wild, and unkempt by humans.

The Alpha Legion, in fact, represent more of an espionage and infiltration aspect of war. If it comes to shooting, sure they are good for it (they are marines for Feths sake!), but to them ( at least in the HH novels) something went wrong if they end up in a true firefight.. In Legion, there is a scene where a group of them ambush and slaughter people, but they set it up to where there was no real chance for them to take losses. However, they do prefer to infiltrate and sabotage, rather than actually engage an enemy. This is similar in vein to the Raven Guard, but even less fighting than the XIX Legion.

Excellent points! Those legions are the ones I'm least familiar with, so I was expecting to be called up on it care to speculate on what's missing from the legion roles?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

ClosetRoller wrote:While that's true, its not too hard to imagine a situation in a planet's atmosphere where Imperial Navy fighter pilots were outclassed and Marines are unable to strike a ground based target. A legion doctrine that supported extended high-altitude air-to-air combat would be a powerful tool. Like I said in my original post, I doubt this is actually an answer to the missing chapters, but it's interesting to note the potential chink in astartes armour.

I think what's more likely is that the 2nd legion were sent into the webway, where some untold horror spelt their doom.

There is some small evidence that they were rinsed by the SW...

Ah yes, forgot about that. Maybe they were corrupted, dismissing the teachings of the Emperor in favor of fealty to Khaine? I can imagine the Wolves going apeshit over that.

I am not sure whats "missing" exactly.. Marines are good in each role of warfare, or have support from Naval units where they aren't used (such as Airpower missions)

That said, about the only thing I can think of, is Heavy Cavalry forces, yet this is generally a style of warfare that Marines are actually using.. The heavy Cav is a concept in which troops ride to battle in transports, supported by battle tanks, there are complete armor companies, as well as artillery companies (all called troops, not companies)

When looking at what is needed in the GC.. There are no "civil engineers" in the Legions, however in each HH books, there are civilian humans who fulfill this role. As is the case with most of the rebuilding efforts carried out in the GC.

That being said, the 2nd and 11th Legions, when they existed had to have done SOMETHING to warrant their removal from all existence.

As I understand it from those old books about the chaos gods(the names elude me) one of the primarchs was Sigmar from fantasy the other Im not sure about...

gh05tdemon wrote:As I understand it from those old books about the chaos gods(the names elude me) one of the primarchs was Sigmar from fantasy the other Im not sure about...

That was retconned...

Yeah I remember some talk about the WHFB world being situated in the Eye of Terror, with Sigmar as one of the primarchs. Kind of like a pet project for the Chaos Gods. A nice idea, but GW decided to distance 40k from the fantasy setting. Also the reason they discontinued Squats.

Night Lords are void/ ship to ship combat.

Blood Angles do not have a "pure gene-seed".

English Assassin wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:I think originally the missing legions were supposed to allow people to make their own, but then later, they changed their plans and decided to tease people with it so eventually they'll reveal them and make profit, and no one will like it

Why do I even bother..?

Because some of people don't get it the first time..... like me

ClosetRoller wrote: Maybe the second legion was destined to be the legion that conquered the webway?

I really like this idea, It would fit with the "lost legion" and still leave the "purged" SW theory there up for grabs. And you could link it to the missing statue quote from earlier on (cant find the quote )

It could have been the inspiration for the Grey Knights being founded? (Im not saying they are grey knights, but provided the idea?)

Yeah it works quite nicely. Of course we'll never know, but it's a nice interpretation.

Have you read Flight of the Eisenstein? I think the impetus for starting the GK/Inquisition were the events that happened on the Eisenstein when the Geller field failed. The final chapter of that book is basically a High Lord of Terra (I think?) briefing Garro and his remaining homies on starting the Inq.

I have but i cant remember the ending clearly, ill have to dig it out for a look. The geller field failure and the fighting that ensues is pretty ineresting and dramtic!
Reading through the HH series is too addictive.....

ClosetRoller wrote:Presumably the Emperor created the legions to perform specific functions. If we narrow down what the original legion's functions are, it'll give us a clue to the nature of the missing legions.

Unfortunately, interesting as this notion might be, it is founded on a false premise. All of the material published on the Astartes Legions emphasises the influence of their Primarchs upon their character and their method of warfare, and the Primarchs' background stories make it very clear that they were shaped by the disparate worlds and societies in which they were raised.

Moreover there is no positive evidence to suggest that the Emperor intended his sons to develop particular individual characteristics (and it would stretch credulity to presume that each coincidentally landed in an appropriate environment). Indeed one might in fact infer from 'The Outcast Dead' that the Emperor created the Primarchs solely for the purpose of using their cells to stabilise the genetically- and surgically-enhanced warriors with which he would wage the Great Crusade.

Likewise, the assumption, in the absence of better information, should be that the Terran Legions, prior to the rediscovery of the Primarchs were relatively homogeneous, differentiated only by whatever traditions they had developed themselves over time (traditions subsequently absorbed or supplanted by those of their Primarchs' worlds).

English Assassin wrote:
Unfortunately, interesting as this notion might be, it is founded on a false premise. All of the material published on the Astartes Legions emphasises the influence of their Primarchs upon their character and their method of warfare, and the Primarchs' background stories make it very clear that they were shaped by the disparate worlds and societies in which they were raised.

Moreover there is no positive evidence to suggest that the Emperor intended his sons to develop particular individual characteristics (and it would stretch credulity to presume that each coincidentally landed in an appropriate environment). Indeed one might in fact infer from 'The Outcast Dead' that the Emperor created the Primarchs solely for the purpose of using their cells to stabilise the genetically- and surgically-enhanced warriors with which he would wage the Great Crusade.

Likewise, the assumption, in the absence of better information, should be that the Terran Legions, prior to the rediscovery of the Primarchs were relatively homogeneous, differentiated only by whatever traditions they had developed themselves over time (traditions subsequently absorbed or supplanted by those of their Primarchs' worlds).

Deliverance Lost on the other hand seems to imply that the Emperor did experiment with the Primarch Genes, most noticeably the Space Wolves.

Although I do agree that it is the upbringing of the Primarchs on their respective worlds which would make the Legions what they are.

If the Primarchs had never been scattered who knows what the Legions would have been like. Loyal would be the one major thing.

I do have a theory that the Emperor knew that something would happen with his children and created a copy of each one in case one was lost, so to speak. Certain Primarchs share capabilities that are pretty close to another, Dorn and Perturabo for example, to be just mere coincidence.

English Assassin wrote:

ClosetRoller wrote:Presumably the Emperor created the legions to perform specific functions. If we narrow down what the original legion's functions are, it'll give us a clue to the nature of the missing legions.

Unfortunately, interesting as this notion might be, it is founded on a false premise. All of the material published on the Astartes Legions emphasises the influence of their Primarchs upon their character and their method of warfare, and the Primarchs' background stories make it very clear that they were shaped by the disparate worlds and societies in which they were raised.

Moreover there is no positive evidence to suggest that the Emperor intended his sons to develop particular individual characteristics (and it would stretch credulity to presume that each coincidentally landed in an appropriate environment). Indeed one might in fact infer from 'The Outcast Dead' that the Emperor created the Primarchs solely for the purpose of using their cells to stabilise the genetically- and surgically-enhanced warriors with which he would wage the Great Crusade.

Likewise, the assumption, in the absence of better information, should be that the Terran Legions, prior to the rediscovery of the Primarchs were relatively homogeneous, differentiated only by whatever traditions they had developed themselves over time (traditions subsequently absorbed or supplanted by those of their Primarchs' worlds).

Relatively homogenous? I remember reading (in Tales of Heresy) that the War Hounds (Pre-Angron World Eaters) were pretty terrifying on the field, and the Thousand Sons were prone to genetic defects and also had a high concentration of pskers in their midst. This can't be coincidence and merely something each legion developed over time, can it?

The way I see it is the Emp did plan out certain roles for his Primarchs, but perhaps not in the way we see them. There is no doubt though that the worlds they landed on shaped them into what they are and perhaps in some cases deviated from the path the Big E saw for them.

in short
Legions made for specific roles, Primarchs altered slightly from their roles due to planets.

I really don't like the idea that the SW killed off one of the Legions.

not only because they would have suffered heavy losses, the SW are good but not that good they can take out an entire legion without losses.

also the Big E couldn't bring it upon himself to kill Hours after he had created civil war, how could he bring it upon himself to kill an entire legionincluding primach for somthing presumably less.

i do like the idea of "The Lost" fighting through the webway naver to be seen again.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Relatively homogenous? I remember reading (in Tales of Heresy) that the War Hounds (Pre-Angron World Eaters) were pretty terrifying on the field, and the Thousand Sons were prone to genetic defects and also had a high concentration of pskers in their midst. This can't be coincidence and merely something each legion developed over time, can it?

I don't see that being prone to spontaneous mutation was likely something the Emperor planned for the Thousand Sons, no. If I remember A Thousand Sons correctly, their genetic defects and psychic powers were ventured to be the product of warp storms during their geneseed's cultivation, and only arose some years into the crusade. So far as the World Eaters go, surely the point made in After Desh'ea (in which Angron kills the Chapter Master and a number of their Captains) is that, with the exception of Khârn, they were not bloodthirsty maniacs like their Primarch.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:The way I see it is the Emp did plan out certain roles for his Primarchs, but perhaps not in the way we see them. There is no doubt though that the worlds they landed on shaped them into what they are and perhaps in some cases deviated from the path the Big E saw for them.

in short
Legions made for specific roles, Primarchs altered slightly from their roles due to planets.

The problem is that there is no positive evidence whatsoever for this, and to presume it would require credulity-stretching coincidence (or a really cheap 'just as planned') for the Primarchs to have fortuitously landed on worlds on which they would develop to suit some supposed plan.

English Assassin wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Relatively homogenous? I remember reading (in Tales of Heresy) that the War Hounds (Pre-Angron World Eaters) were pretty terrifying on the field, and the Thousand Sons were prone to genetic defects and also had a high concentration of pskers in their midst. This can't be coincidence and merely something each legion developed over time, can it?

I don't see that being prone to spontaneous mutation was likely something the Emperor planned for the Thousand Sons, no. If I remember A Thousand Sons correctly, their genetic defects and psychic powers were ventured to be the product of warp storms during their geneseed's cultivation, and only arose some years into the crusade. So far as the World Eaters go, surely the point made in After Desh'ea (in which Angron kills the Chapter Master and a number of their Captains) is that, with the exception of Khârn, they were not bloodthirsty maniacs like their Primarch.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:The way I see it is the Emp did plan out certain roles for his Primarchs, but perhaps not in the way we see them. There is no doubt though that the worlds they landed on shaped them into what they are and perhaps in some cases deviated from the path the Big E saw for them.

in short
Legions made for specific roles, Primarchs altered slightly from their roles due to planets.

The problem is that there is no positive evidence whatsoever for this, and to presume it would require credulity-stretching coincidence (or a really cheap 'just as planned') for the Primarchs to have fortuitously landed on worlds on which they would develop to suit some supposed plan.

Could you give me an approximation on where they said in Thousand Sons that it had something to do with warp storms? I vaguely remember that too but thought of it more as theories amongst marines rather than something... well other than theories. And I haven't heard of After Desh'ea, audiobook? New short? Or did is it in a codex.

But the thing with Angron, didn't they basically lobotomize some parts of his brain to make him more aggressive before they stuck him into the arenas? Or again are there bits of lore that i'm missing?

And is there evidence to support anything else? I'm pretty sure GW likes to keep things vaguely clear or clearly vague so they could always go back and do something about it later

Just to throw more fuel on the fire, in The First Heretic, when Lorgar and Magnus are talking, Lorgar starts to talk about the "Two already lost" and Magnus cuts him off to remind Lorgar to "Honor* the oath you took that day", which can suggest both missing Primarchs and their legions were expunged at the same time.

I'm fairly willing to bet that there is no actual story in existence and the only guideline that is being given to the fluff writers is to not talk about them, or talk about them in nebulous, non-specific terms. Hence why there is so much conflicting info in the Heresy novels. This little bit of fluff has stayed in the canon for so long that GW wrote itself into a corner when it decided to sanction an expanded Horus Heresy storyline. When the knowledge of the details of the Heresy was mostly "lost" it didn't matter. Now, when they have stories that are occurring in a contemporary setting, they have to find a way around it.


*British misspelling corrected.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Just to throw more fuel on the fire, in The First Heretic, when Lorgar and Magnus are talking, Lorgar starts to talk about the "Two already lost" and Magnus cuts him off to remind Lorgar to "Honor* the oath you took that day", which can suggest both missing Primarchs and their legions were expunged at the same time.

*British misspelling corrected.

I wouldn't go so far as to say at the same time, but I would say that all 18 "existing" Primarchs had knowledge of the last two, and knew their fate, but were honor bound not to talk about it... Though apparently they don't talk about this the way that Bob doesn't talk about Fight Club

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Just to throw more fuel on the fire, in The First Heretic, when Lorgar and Magnus are talking, Lorgar starts to talk about the "Two already lost" and Magnus cuts him off to remind Lorgar to "Honor* the oath you took that day", which can suggest both missing Primarchs and their legions were expunged at the same time.

*British misspelling corrected.

I wouldn't go so far as to say at the same time, but I would say that all 18 "existing" Primarchs had knowledge of the last two, and knew their fate, but were honor bound not to talk about it... Though apparently they don't talk about this the way that Bob doesn't talk about Fight Club

I don't know about that. It depends on how fast the primarchs where recovered and it what order. We know Horus was the first and only for a long while. I can see Dorn and Guilliman being rather early on also. Same with Lorgar ( unless Cholos has a fantastic recrutment drive to make them the second largest legion.) After that it's all a crap shoot, except for Alpharius/Omeagon we know they/them where last found by Horus himself and didn't spend much time with the Emperor before getting out there into 'the fight'.

We know Russ and the Wolves had to be 'found' but then as he did the dirty deed apparently on atleast one of them.

Personally I like to think a more interesting question is " Is "The Emperor" just a body who was given life by malcador ( who is the true Emperor) as a 'figure head' while he is the power behind the throne. Split your conceness into two beings who have no memorys of being one. Kinda like Alphy/omeg Two bodys one spirit?

EDIT; whoops Magnus would of have to of been found by then also. I guess it would be kind of awkard for Lorgar to have that conversation with Magnus while magnus is just having a "WTF" moment

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: I don't know about that. It depends on how fast the primarchs where recovered and it what order. We know Horus was the first and only for a long while. I can see Dorn and Guilliman being rather early on also. Same with Lorgar ( unless Cholos has a fantastic recrutment drive to make them the second largest legion.)

The Word Bearers did significantly less fighting and conquering during the Great Crusade than the other Legions. Less fighting means less casualties. They also spent long periods of time on the few worlds the did conquer, which meant plenty of time to recruit. Those both probably aided their growth.

English Assassin wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Relatively homogenous? I remember reading (in Tales of Heresy) that the War Hounds (Pre-Angron World Eaters) were pretty terrifying on the field, and the Thousand Sons were prone to genetic defects and also had a high concentration of pskers in their midst. This can't be coincidence and merely something each legion developed over time, can it?

I don't see that being prone to spontaneous mutation was likely something the Emperor planned for the Thousand Sons, no. If I remember A Thousand Sons correctly, their genetic defects and psychic powers were ventured to be the product of warp storms during their geneseed's cultivation, and only arose some years into the crusade. So far as the World Eaters go, surely the point made in After Desh'ea (in which Angron kills the Chapter Master and a number of their Captains) is that, with the exception of Khârn, they were not bloodthirsty maniacs like their Primarch.

I think it is entirely possible

The Emperor is a bit of an ass to say the least. He created the Thunder Warriors to conquer Terra and then killed them once they had served their purpose. I do think that the Emperor could have orchestrated the whole unstable geneseed of the Thousand Sons.

We discussed it here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/403376.page#3580671

Imagine the Emperor knew that he couldn't be on the Golden Throne all the time and needed someone, being Magnus, to sit on it for him. He also needs to conquer the galaxy so needs as many Legions as possible. He creates the Thousand Sons with time bomb Geneseed as he can imagine that their father wouldn't leave them to fight on their own. So the only way to pull him away from his children would be for them to die and to give him purpose.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:The way I see it is the Emp did plan out certain roles for his Primarchs, but perhaps not in the way we see them. There is no doubt though that the worlds they landed on shaped them into what they are and perhaps in some cases deviated from the path the Big E saw for them.

It would have served the Emperor better if the Primarchs never had sent away. The Emperor had intended for all 20 to remain on Terra by the looks of it from reading Deliverance Lost. I think that the Primarchs individuality that led to a lot of them rebelling. If the Primarchs were kept on Terra and the Emperor had that much access to them I think they would have been as loyal to him as the Custodes, which the Chaos Gods didn't want. If anything it was the Gods of Chaos that chose what planets to dump the Primarchs on, 10 of them at least.

English Assassin wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
Legions made for specific roles, Primarchs altered slightly from their roles due to planets.

The problem is that there is no positive evidence whatsoever for this, and to presume it would require credulity-stretching coincidence (or a really cheap 'just as planned') for the Primarchs to have fortuitously landed on worlds on which they would develop to suit some supposed plan.

I think that this might have been the Emperors original intention. Dorn, Perturabo, Magnus and Russ all seem to have been created with certain tasks in mind and the Emperor might have been able to work with these talents better had they had grown up on Terra. But seeing as they were scattered they might not have nurtured their full potential the way the Emperor would have intended for them and were also tainted, in a way, with humanity, which I guess is one of the Primarchs biggest flaws.

There is some talk in one of the HH books about the roles of the primarchs (and by extension their Legions).

I cannot for the life of me remember which, but they talk about Dorn "protecting the hearth" and so on...

Steelmage99 wrote:There is some talk in one of the HH books about the roles of the primarchs (and by extension their Legions).

I cannot for the life of me remember which, but they talk about Dorn "protecting the hearth" and so on...

Prospero Burns if I remember rightly

OP, the Blood Ravens are NOT a second founding Imperial Fist chapter. They are loyalist Thousand Suns. It is hinted at allover.

GK are a second founding, made from either the Emporer's gene seed or those from the Einstein that fled to earth.

Deathwatch are a chapter made of Marines "on loan" to the Ordos Xenos.

We all know, that the Angry Marines were one of the Legions.... And either the Reasonable Marines or the Pretty Marines were the other.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Could you give me an approximation on where they said in Thousand Sons that it had something to do with warp storms? I vaguely remember that too but thought of it more as theories amongst marines rather than something... well other than theories. And I haven't heard of After Desh'ea, audiobook? New short? Or did is it in a codex.

But the thing with Angron, didn't they basically lobotomize some parts of his brain to make him more aggressive before they stuck him into the arenas? Or again are there bits of lore that i'm missing?

And is there evidence to support anything else? I'm pretty sure GW likes to keep things vaguely clear or clearly vague so they could always go back and do something about it later

I don't recall where in A Thousand Sons (I'd have to re-read the novel), but the point stands that Astartes spontaneously mutating might be the result of any number of external factors, or of particular flaws in Magnus' geneseed, and is thus in no way positive proof of some kind of hypothetical intent.

'After Desh'ea' is a short in Tales of Heresy; your point about Angron rather hits the nail on the head - he was made into an unstable, bloodthirsty maniac by the lobotomy and cerebral implants he received on the unnamed world on which he was raised. Likewise Konrad Curze became space-Batman (complete with superhero alter ego) because he he grew up fighting crime on a world which was essentially space-Gotham, Jaghatai Khan ended up space-Genghis Khan because he was raised on space-Mongolia, Roboute Guilliman landed in space-Rome, avenged his adopted father's murder, and became space-Augustus, etc.

That the Primarchs' characters - and by extension those of their Legions, after their recovery - were formed by the worlds on which they were raised is unarguable, long-established background, whereas the hypothesis that the Emperor intended them for the particular roles they eventually filled is not only based solely in speculation, but requires accepting the ludicrous coincidence that they all landed on worlds which would inculcate just the qualities he wanted. On the information presently available - i.e. plenty about how the Primarchs' upbringings shaped them, and nothing about some supposed 'Imperial plan' - the only logical conclusion is to accept the former and disregard the latter.

Pilau Rice wrote:It would have served the Emperor better if the Primarchs never had sent away. The Emperor had intended for all 20 to remain on Terra by the looks of it from reading Deliverance Lost. I think that the Primarchs individuality that led to a lot of them rebelling. If the Primarchs were kept on Terra and the Emperor had that much access to them I think they would have been as loyal to him as the Custodes, which the Chaos Gods didn't want. If anything it was the Gods of Chaos that chose what planets to dump the Primarchs on, 10 of them at least.

Of course the flaw in that assumption is that the Primarch in whose upbringing the Emperor had the largest role was..? We have literally no idea what factors governed the infant Primarchs' destinations, they may have been deliberately chosen by the Ruinous Powers, they may have been entirely random, making guesses about numbers in a vacuum of information is specious.

English Assassin wrote:
That the Primarchs' characters - and by extension those of their Legions, after their recovery - were formed by the worlds on which they were raised is unarguable, long-established background, whereas the hypothesis that the Emperor intended them for the particular roles they eventually filled is not only based solely in speculation, but requires accepting the ludicrous coincidence that they all landed on worlds which would inculcate just the qualities he wanted. On the information presently available - i.e. plenty about how the Primarchs' upbringings shaped them, and nothing about some supposed 'Imperial plan' - the only logical conclusion is to accept the former and disregard the latter.

Despite of what we have in Deliverance Lost, pointing to the geneseed of the Primarchs being modified and what Russ goes into in Prospero Burns?

It's definitely their upbringing on their homeworlds that made them Space Vikings and Khans. But they were created with specific knowledge of how to do stuff. Corax just knows how to be stealthy, it's in his being. Which could be the way the Emperor created him, to be the stealth specialist.

English Assassin wrote:
Of course the flaw in that assumption is that the Primarch in whose upbringing the Emperor had the largest role was..? We have literally no idea what factors governed the infant Primarchs' destinations, they may have been deliberately chosen by the Ruinous Powers, they may have been entirely random, making guesses about numbers in a vacuum of information is specious.

Horus, who was raised on Cthonia, your point? He might have spent the longest time with his father but was still raised on Cthonia for an unknown period of time.

We can make a pretty accurate guess on what information we do have. The First Heretic shows each of the Primarchs that would turn traitor, plus the Lion who is a bit iffy, on their respective homeworlds. Who Orchestrated the abduction of the infant Priamrchs? The Chaos Gods. Who harboured Lorgar for the longest time in the warp? The Chaos Gods. Who had plans for the Primarchs since they found out about them? The Chaos Gods.

Maybe the two missing primarchs simply landed on gas planets or inside a black hole. After all, what is the probability of 20 primarchs landing on 20 planets that could support human life...

d-usa wrote:Maybe the two missing primarchs simply landed on gas planets or inside a black hole.

WWWWWWEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....... POP

Pulsing Rice wrote:Despite of what we have in Deliverance Lost, pointing to the geneseed of the Primarchs being modified and what Russ goes into in Prospero Burns.

Well, I haven't yet read Deliverance Lost. If it explicitly states that the Emperor deliberately engineered the Primarchs to fit the roles they subsequently filled - and that's the contention against which I'm arguing - then it's a retcon, and, quite frankly, it's unbelievably poor writing, since it requires we accept the aforementioned ridiculous coincidences.

Pilau Rice wrote:He might have spent the longest time with his father but was still raised on Cthonia for an unknown period of time.

Per Horus Rising he wasn't even there long enough to acquire a Cthonian accent.

d-usa wrote:Maybe the two missing Primarchs simply landed on gas planets or inside a black hole.

No, it's confirmed, as mentioned earlier in this thread, by 'The Lightning Tower' that they were both found by the Emperor.

Emperor did not engineer Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne.

Golden Throne was not conceived of until Great Crusade was under way (and nearly finished).
No one was required to constantly be on Golden Throne until Magnus broke it.
Emperor could not see the future.

English Assassin wrote:

Pulsing Rice wrote:Despite of what we have in Deliverance Lost, pointing to the geneseed of the Primarchs being modified and what Russ goes into in Prospero Burns.

Well, I haven't yet read Deliverance Lost. If it explicitly states that the Emperor deliberately engineered the Primarchs to fit the roles they subsequently filled - and that's the contention against which I'm arguing - then it's a retcon, and, quite frankly, it's unbelievably poor writing, since it requires we accept the aforementioned ridiculous coincidences.

What if you take pieces of that as a whole? Perhaps the Emperor imbued each Primarch with some aspect of his being, thus making Corax 'super stealthy', and Alpharius 'super sabotage-ey', BUT it was the planet that they landed on that ultimately shaped their whole identity? I had read that the Dusk Raiders fought in larger squads, slowly and implacably gunning down the enemy. Enter Mortarion who was a dour, no-nonsense type of dude who scorned all ornamentation but the essential and didn't care how pretty a victory was, so long as his men took not a single step back. The Legion, being made of his Genetic Materials already had some aspect of his personality, but it was his home planet that truly shaped his outlook and personality.

Just the same with Lorgar, if he had landed on Kiavahr, instead of Colchis (or whichever planet it was), he would have been plunged into a guerrilla style insurrection, as opposed to a religiously based "holy war" and thus, would have had his outlook and demeanor altered because of it.

But, in Deliverance Lost, it does discuss how the Emperor engineered each Primarch (however, doesn't thus far discuss engineering specific roles in the Great Crusade), so I think that it isn't too much of a stretch to see some sort of engineering roles, though ultimately I think that the planet each Primarch landed on had just as much impact on who they were as "people".

The 11th primarch is known as the lost one right? Now this may just be a coincidence (and probably is) Malal (now called Malice I believe) was referred to as 'The Lost God' and his sacred number is 11

Now if this is in any way connected then shouldn't 'The Sons of Malice' be the 11th legion?

Murdock129 wrote:The 11th primarch is known as the lost one right? Now this may just be a coincidence (and probably is) Malal (now called Malice I believe) was referred to as 'The Lost God' and his sacred number is 11

Now if this is in any way connected then shouldn't 'The Sons of Malice' be the 11th legion?

And as I pointed out in last week's Malal thread (and doubtless will again in next week's), they are in fact known as 'The forgotten and the purged.', so no.

#2 is the other missing Legion so the significance of 11 is a dubious one.

Engrish assassyn wrote:

Pulsing Rice wrote:Despite of what we have in Deliverance Lost, pointing to the geneseed of the Primarchs being modified and what Russ goes into in Prospero Burns.

Well, I haven't yet read Deliverance Lost. If it explicitly states that the Emperor deliberately engineered the Primarchs to fit the roles they subsequently filled - and that's the contention against which I'm arguing - then it's a retcon, and, quite frankly, it's unbelievably poor writing, since it requires we accept the aforementioned ridiculous coincidences.

It doesn't go out to specifically say the Emperor did it but who else engineered the Primarch Data. But I am not saying that the roles that they filled after they were rediscovered were the roles that the Emperor had intended for them. Some like Dorn and Perturabo seem to have done what the Emperor intended and been the Siege specialists. But did the Emperor intend for Perturabo to be sullen, moody and disliked, I wouldn'tve thought so. I am trying to say that the Emperor had a plan for each Primarch, and each had a purpose, but the subsequent scattering of the Primarchs changed this and they grew up as their homeworld dictated. Although they grew up acting on the latent abilities that the Emperor had intended for them. Should they had grown up on Terra they the Emperor could have guided them accordingly.

English Assassin wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:He might have spent the longest time with his father but was still raised on Cthonia for an unknown period of time.

Per Horus Rising he wasn't even there long enough to acquire a Cthonian accent.

Not entirely true as he could speak Cthonic 'with the particular hard palatal edge and rough vowels of a Western Hemispheric ganger'. True though he, didn't spend as much time on Cthonia as the other Primarchs did on their respective homeworlds.

Let me try this from a different direction.

Didn't chaos scatter the primarchs? I remember a bit in First Heretic where they talk about the pantheon being "fathers" in a sense to the primarchs as the Emp had delved deep to create them.

Could it be said that chaos spread the primarchs onto planets based on their element to grow independently and eventually turn on the emporer?

Maybe that's a little too much of a stretch....... must lay off the sharpie fumes....

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Let me try this from a different direction.

Didn't chaos scatter the primarchs? I remember a bit in First Heretic where they talk about the pantheon being "fathers" in a sense to the primarchs as the Emp had delved deep to create them.

Could it be said that chaos spread the primarchs onto planets based on their element to grow independently and eventually turn on the emporer?

Maybe that's a little too much of a stretch....... must lay off the sharpie fumes....

the sharpie fumes are in fact, the incense of Tzeentch

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Let me try this from a different direction.

Didn't chaos scatter the primarchs? I remember a bit in First Heretic where they talk about the pantheon being "fathers" in a sense to the primarchs as the Emp had delved deep to create them.

Could it be said that chaos spread the primarchs onto planets based on their element to grow independently and eventually turn on the emporer?

Maybe that's a little too much of a stretch....... must lay off the sharpie fumes....

the sharpie fumes are in fact, the incense of Tzeentch

oh dammit... BLarrrghhh...... *tentacles waving*

Pilau Rice wrote:He might have spent the longest time with his father but was still raised on Cthonia for an unknown period of time.

Per Horus Rising he wasn't even there long enough to acquire a Cthonian accent.

Well, thanks to a six-hour train journey back from London yesterday, I can now add my thoughts on Deliverance Lost. Not a bad read, actually, though the twist at the end is rather cheap, since it wasn't (at least that I noticed) foreshadowed at any point in the novel. It was, however, pleasing to see that Gav was evidently thinking of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress when he wrote Corax's flashback segments.

Anyway... fair enough, the novel establishes unarguably that the Emperor did not make all of the Primarchs identical. It does not necessarily follow from this, however, that he did this for the sake of specialisation; they were, after all, experiments. (One wonders who the 'control' was: Horus? The Lion?) Given the other information we have, the conclusion which requires the fewest assumptions remains that they were principally shaped by their disparate upbringings. Indeed Corax spends several pages reflecting on just that fact; he and Curze share certain similarities because they were scattered to similar worlds, but that Corax didn't turn into a compassionless killer, because, unlike Curze, he had others around him to teach him morality and the value of human life.

Sticking with the Primarchs, however, it is interesting also to note that the genetic differences observed are only peripheral to their developed characters. Perdurabo, for instance, was intended to be tough and to feel no pain, not specifically to be a 'siege specialist'.

Pilau Rice wrote:I do have a theory that the Emperor knew that something would happen with his children and created a copy of each one in case one was lost, so to speak. Certain Primarchs share capabilities that are pretty close to another, Dorn and Perturabo for example, to be just mere coincidence.

I'm not convinced by this either, Deliverance Lost dismisses any notion of design in the Curze/Corax pair, and, going back to Index Astartes (still the most detailed source we have on Dorn, until he gets his Horus Heresy novel) Dorn is not described as merely a master of fortifications, but as 'The Emperor's Praetorian', trusted with the most difficult and demanding tasks by virtue of his loyalty (and, to extrapolate from his personality, his self-flagellating determination). The rivalry between him and Perdurabo, I would venture, rested largely in the latter's mind.

English Assassin wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:He might have spent the longest time with his father but was still raised on Cthonia for an unknown period of time.

Per Horus Rising he wasn't even there long enough to acquire a Cthonian accent.

Is it mentioned that any of the Primarchs speak with the accent of their homeworld? It says that Horus was the only Primarch who didn't mature on their homeworld. So a few years maybe. Certainly long enough for a genetic super being to learn the lingo, so to speak.

English Assassin wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Not entirely true as he could speak Cthonic 'with the particular hard palatal edge and rough vowels of a Western Hemispheric ganger'.

Unless I misremember, Horus Rising specifically makes the point that Horus artificially puts on a Cthonian accent to fit in with his soldiers, but that it is not his native accent.

True, but then do any of the other Primarchs state they they talk with their adopted homeworlds accent? Or is it all mimicry, like with the Lion being able to mimic the creatures of Caliban. Horus possibly spoke with a Cthonic accent up until the Emperor discovered him, finding out that Terra, and not Cthonia, was his homeworld.

English Assassin wrote:It does not necessarily follow from this, however, that he did this for the sake of specialisation; they were, after all, experiments. (One wonders who the 'control' was: Horus? The Lion?) Given the other information we have, the conclusion which requires the fewest assumptions remains that they were principally shaped by their disparate upbringings. Indeed Corax spends several pages reflecting on just that fact; he and Curze share certain similarities because they were scattered to similar worlds, but that Corax didn't turn into a compassionless killer, because, unlike Curze, he had others around him to teach him morality and the value of human life.

I don't know, I don't think the Primarchs were the experiments. I think they would have been the outcome of prior experimentation, the finished project so to speak. What if they would have gone wrong?

English Assassin wrote:Sticking with the Primarchs, however, it is interesting also to note that the genetic differences observed are only peripheral to their developed characters. Perdurabo, for instance, was intended to be tough and to feel no pain, not specifically to be a 'siege specialist'.

These also were the only points that Corax commented on, I'm sure that as with Corax, Perturabo would have had other talents embedded into his being.

English Assassin wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I do have a theory that the Emperor knew that something would happen with his children and created a copy of each one in case one was lost, so to speak. Certain Primarchs share capabilities that are pretty close to another, Dorn and Perturabo for example, to be just mere coincidence.

I'm not convinced by this either, Deliverance Lost dismisses any notion of design in the Curze/Corax pair, and, going back to Index Astartes (still the most detailed source we have on Dorn, until he gets his Horus Heresy novel) Dorn is not described as merely a master of fortifications, but as 'The Emperor's Praetorian', trusted with the most difficult and demanding tasks by virtue of his loyalty (and, to extrapolate from his personality, his self-flagellating determination). The rivalry between him and Perdurabo, I would venture, rested largely in the latter's mind.

Hmm not sure I agree. Clearly the upbringing of the Primarchs on their respective worlds moulded them into something different from the Emperors original intentions and each Primarch garnered their own characteristics and personalities from this. Had it been intended for Dorn to be the Emperors Praetorian from the offset, from his birth. Was Perturabo a copy of Dorn, but flawed. You don't have to share the same theory

The debate about whether the Primarchs were created with a pre-designed skil set, seems to come down to a nature vs nuture debate.

Now the nature aspect of the primarchs is their genetic legacy desinged by the emperor, now because they were designed/created this gives a strong argument that their characteristics were deliberate.

Now Nature, being the world they grew up on, has undoubtably shaped the characters of the primarchs, Russ being a space viking, Angron have his brain tinckered with has got to have had a huge impact on who he was menat to be.

Whenever I'm not sure I generally settle for a nice shade of grey answer. The emperor didn't plan for them to be scattered, and it's highly unlikely that the forces of chaos would have been helpful enough to scatter the primarchs to the exact planets that would aid th development of the emperors pre made plans.

So here what I think, go easy just made this up after reading this thread, the emperor did have plans for each of them and had he been able to raise them on terra as intended each would have developed in a similar fashion, except with terran accents. As children are highly adaptable and being primarch kids you can imagine that they would pocess even greater adaptability. This would probably aided the emperor in his training of them. However it actually meant they embraced the traits of their new home worlds upbringing.

The planets they ended up on were random, and uable to resist DNA their natural traits expressed themselves in a "local Manner". If Khan had landed on a water planet he would probably been really nippy on a water ski. If Corax had landed on Maccrage he would have still been sneaky but with a heavier political leaning.

In short nature and nuture both have an impact to say one is more powerful than the other is in debate without end. Is the lion a secretive beacuse it's in his DNA or because he spend his formative years hanging out with chaos beasts. In my opinion it probably both. Nuture is hugely important but there are some genetic traits you can't fight.

My opinion in the case of the missing Primarch's is this:

Athe the moment the GW have intentionally left them out and I belive they have given authority to the Authors of novels to refer to them VERY briefly. With them been spoken and refered to more and more in the HH series I think we may yet find out more fluff on one or both of the missing Primarch and their legions fates.

Looking at this logically and using any fluff I have, I have ruled out some legions who could be mistaken for them:

Grey Knights: Formed as part of the second founding from hand picked members from around ALL of the legions, Loyalist and Rebel.
The Emperor knew there was more dangerous things out there that even the Astartes were not prepered to face, so he entrusted Malcador with forming a Chapter of Demon Slayers, whose faith and loyalty alone are without reproach.
Listen to the Garro audiobooks to know more.

Deathwatch: Again a Chapter of Specialist's whom Specialise in Xenos Slaying and also recovering Xenos tech.
Is composed of Hand picked and Volunteers from all of the Loyalist Legions, there is enough fluff out there to discount them being a missing legion.

Blood Ravens: A Loyalist splinter of the Thousand Sons Legion, but to hide the shame were drip fed stories from the beginning about them being connected to the Imperial Fists Legion.

Black Templars: We know for sure that this was the first Chapter the Imperial Fists form with the Original Emperors Champion and First Captain Sigsmund as the First Chapter Master.

The only Legion I can think of which could possibly be linked in my opinion is the Legion of the Dammed, although the fact that Girlymans legion was ridculously massive could suggest that one of the missing legions was given to the Ultramarines

Any Thoughts?

81Northman wrote:

The only Legion I can think of which could possibly be linked in my opinion is the Legion of the Dammed, although the fact that Girlymans legion was ridculously massive could suggest that one of the missing legions was given to the Ultramarines

Any Thoughts?

The existing fluff, as I know it, would suggest that a chapter of the 21st founding known as the Fire Hawks went into the warp and never came out. It is believed by some that these Fire Hawks became the LotD because of some actions during battle at some point or another, blah blah blah. While I think that this could be true in part, I also think that it is *POSSIBLE* that the LotD was originally one of the 2 missing legions, yet when a chapter is lost in its entirety to the warp, they could possibly "join" or otherwise become the Legion of the Damned.

All we know of the missing primarchs so far is they were purged from memory and records during the Great Crusade. We know this is highly unusual and will take a betrayal as big as Magnus to bring the wrath of the Emperor down upon a primarch. So what can cause a legion to be erased from the memory of mankind? Fall to chaos? Betrayal? Tampering with unknown technology? Maybe even refusal of Imperial decree?

Here's another theory as to their fates.

Hahahahahaha, thats brilliant,

on a more serious note though

LumenPraebeo wrote:All we know of the missing primarchs so far is they were purged from memory and records during the Great Crusade. We know this is highly unusual and will take a betrayal as big as Magnus to bring the wrath of the Emperor down upon a primarch. So what can cause a legion to be erased from the memory of mankind? Fall to chaos? Betrayal? Tampering with unknown technology? Maybe even refusal of Imperial decree?

I think this could suggest that the Horus Heresy wasn't the first time some one decided to try and become master(s) of mankind.

Any thoughts?

Russ said that the assault on Prospero wasn't the first time the Space Wolves were called on to destroy a legion, or something similar. Either mass possession or a grab for power seems to be the only reason that such a thing would happen.

I remember reading that too, this would almost certainly poit to the fact that Russ and the Space Wolves wiped out one of the missing legions then perhaps killed the other primarch and the other legion got joined with Girlymans legion

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

81Northman wrote:I remember reading that too, this would almost certainly poit to the fact that Russ and the Space Wolves wiped out one of the missing legions then perhaps killed the other primarch and the other legion got joined with Girlymans legion

No. All we actually know is that the Space Wolves had been called upon to fight their fellow Astartes before the assault on Prospero, and that one of the Word Bearers speculated that the Ultramarines had absorbed one (or both) of the defunct Legions. Anything more specific than that, however, is guesswork.

The Primarchs were engineered to be a different aspect of the Emperor. And yes the world they landed on shaped their approach to that role but at their core was what they were created to be. We find this out in either the 2nd or 3rd novel of the HH as horus explains it too us. Telling us an example of the role that each primarch plays and what aspect they are. It is also mentioned several times later through the series, each time in more detail for some and less for others.

Lorgar has the empeors skill with words and is the master orator, while Fulgrim has the Emperors pride and vanity. Magnus is the only being in the galaxy with the same or near psyker power of the Emperor. And Sanguinius was the only primarch with the most qualities of the Emperor as a whole, which is why he should have been Warmaster, because he wouldn't have been swayed so easily.

The worlds shaped them, but they were already made of what they would become. But as they were born of the Dark Gods and the Emperor, and their personalities and genetics created by both, its quite likely that the gods directed the Primarchs to worlds where they would either be more controllable, or would reach their true potential. Lorgar travelled through Calth before landing on Colchois I believe. According to The First Heretic.

Fabricator wrote:The Primarchs were engineered to be a different aspect of the Emperor. And yes the world they landed on shaped their approach to that role but at their core was what they were created to be. We find this out in either the 2nd or 3rd novel of the HH as horus explains it too us. Telling us an example of the role that each primarch plays and what aspect they are. It is also mentioned several times later through the series, each time in more detail for some and less for others.

Lorgar has the empeors skill with words and is the master orator, while Fulgrim has the Emperors pride and vanity. Magnus is the only being in the galaxy with the same or near psyker power of the Emperor. And Sanguinius was the only primarch with the most qualities of the Emperor as a whole, which is why he should have been Warmaster, because he wouldn't have been swayed so easily.

The worlds shaped them, but they were already made of what they would become. But as they were born of the Dark Gods and the Emperor, and their personalities and genetics created by both, its quite likely that the gods directed the Primarchs to worlds where they would either be more controllable, or would reach their true potential. Lorgar travelled through Calth before landing on Colchois I believe. According to The First Heretic.

^that's a theory I'm more inclined to believe after reading first heretic. Shows that Chaos had a hand in the development of the primarchs.

Fabricator wrote:The Primarchs were engineered to be a different aspect of the Emperor.

Sort of, but not quite. They were built for different specific jobs, not as a disintegrated Emperor.

Regarding deathwatch as one of the missing legions I believe that they are just space marines that are seconded from their chapters as was writtne in one of the uriel ventris novels as it had (just off the top of my head) white scars ,imperial fists and also space wolves.
And as for the sarcophagus on the grey knight planet could also just be the remains of malcador the sigilite or their first leader

Based on First Heretic, it's clear that Magnus and Lorgar knew what happened to the 2nd and 11th Primarchs. It's not clear if all 20 primarchs were found before the 2nd and 11th were erased or not, but it seems reasonable that all 18 knew what happened to them.

What was so horrible, and what oaths so binding, that the traitor primachs wouldn't discuss it, and even use it to taunt the loyalists if possible? That's the question that gnaws at me with any discussion about the lost legions. Magnus doesn't taunt Russ with it, "Oh, you've come to kill me just like you dropped Deuce?" Angron's lobbing off all the skulls he can, chasing Corax through the mountains of Istvaan, but not taunting him with, "You'll die just like Ferrus and Eleven!"

I'm guessing that GW will eventually reveal what happened to them. And like a lot of things in life, the anticipation will have been better than the unveiling and most of us will be a little disappointed that it wasn't more incredible. "Huh, so one of them just got lost in the warp, and the other dabbled in sorcery and was wiped out by Russ."

Fabricator wrote:The Primarchs were engineered to be a different aspect of the Emperor. And yes the world they landed on shaped their approach to that role but at their core was what they were created to be. We find this out in either the 2nd or 3rd novel of the HH as horus explains it too us. Telling us an example of the role that each primarch plays and what aspect they are. It is also mentioned several times later through the series, each time in more detail for some and less for others.

Unless I misremember, this is all presented as in-character speculation, not the word of the all-knowing narrator.

81Northman wrote:I think this could suggest that the Horus Heresy wasn't the first time some one decided to try and become master(s) of mankind.

Dorn, in (if I recall correctly) the Lightning Tower, indeed observes that in retrospect, the fates of the two unknown Primarchs foreshadowed the Heresy. That does not necessarily imply anything so obvious as one (or both) of them rebelling and attempting to overthrow the Emperor, indeed the oft-repeated assertion that Horus' rebellion was "unthinkable", and that their fates were described as "tragedies" suggests that something more complicated occurred.

Maybe one of the pods just ended up in a sarlaac pit...

Or in a volcano? or into a star?

I mean other primarchs have landed in inhospitable environments where life struggles to survive, but what if they landed somewhere where nothing short of godhood would allow them to survive

No, it's been confirmed that all twenty Primarchs were recovered and united with their legions. In, "The Lightning Tower", for instance, we see that statues were raised of all twenty, and learn that the remaining eighteen took oaths never to speak of their missing brothers.

The missing primarchs could have grown up on a world with a high degree of chaos influence.

the big E finds and reunites them and then they turn rouge.

in the HH books some of the worlds mentioned have religions influenced by chaos that leads to insurgency against imperial rule

I actually really like the Malice theory. They were found and at some point during the Crusade, when the Emperor was gathering a significant Warp presence, they became aware of the Chaos gods and all started praying to the Emperor. But this went against why they were originally created; to fight chaos if it ever rose. So the Emperor ordered them killed, just like he had with another legion recently. They caught wind of it and fled to the Warp. But all their prayer spawned a minor entity, weak but definitely there. Now they follow this entity and carry out the work they were always meant to do.

It's believed that the SW took out a legion very early on, before the HH. To prevent other legions joining them, they were purged quickly and records of their existence removed.

The other (my personal favourite) is thought to have tasked themselves with taking the Great Crusade and the will of the Emperor beyond the Milky Way and headed off to another galaxy, probably Andromeda.

What were the two again? the purged and the forgotten?

The purged definitely goes with the theory that the SW's wiped out one legion, the forgotten(?)... I dunno, didn't logar say something about it while pointing his finger at the Ultrasmurfs?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:What were the two again? the purged and the forgotten?

The purged definitely goes with the theory that the SW's wiped out one legion, the forgotten(?)... I dunno, didn't logar say something about it while pointing his finger at the Ultrasmurfs?

Lorgar didn't, but some of the Word Bearers made comments that the Ultramarines gained numbers about the time the 2nd and/or 11th were expunged. Lorgar told his men to stop gossiping, but also didn't say that they were wrong.

For my carcharodons I am going to write my own fluff. My fluff is going to include what happened to the missing two.

And also, since we know nothing of the other two, who is to say they weren't found first before Horus.

I like to think, from time to time, one of the lost primarch currently is chilling in stasis in Trazyn's gallery.
That, or maybe Corax, Vulkan, Russ, ect

Brother Coa wrote:

DeffDred wrote:
As for "The Lost", perhaps they were actually lost. Either in a tragic warp accident, gene-seed failure or turned to the runious powers.

Spoiler:

Maybe they are in fact Blood Ravens?

I just hope so...

Blood Ravens are 21st Founding chapter using experimental 1K sons geneseed, Minotaurs are the same except with World Eaters. Would explain their annoying mysteriousness for sure.

Buttons wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

DeffDred wrote:
As for "The Lost", perhaps they were actually lost. Either in a tragic warp accident, gene-seed failure or turned to the runious powers.

Spoiler:

Maybe they are in fact Blood Ravens?

I just hope so...

Blood Ravens are 21st Founding chapter using experimental 1K sons geneseed, Minotaurs are the same except with World Eaters. Would explain their annoying mysteriousness for sure.

Source please

Having one of the legions tasked to conquer the webway and getting lost sounds cool, but for their records to have been deleted maybe it was thought by most that they had abandoned the emporer. But theres a prophecy that as the emporer finally dies they will find their way to the terra webway portal and prevent the hordes of chaos from escaping it or something.
Having a primarch fall to chaos well before the HH makes the primarchs and emps actions before and during the HH really stupid. Only a betrayal with a xenos makes sense, maybe this betrayal is the reason the deathwatch now exists. Also the primarch might have landed on a human planet ruled by an artificial intelligence. And he got implanted with an A.I sort of like being possessed, he was stricken from the records because th A.I had made him the greatest primarch. Im just throwing what i think are some reasonable things out there.
sorry for the old thread its my first day.

In False Gods... When Horus is in the Davinite temple, and being shown around by Erebus... When he is confronted by the Legio Custodes... He smacks the incubator marked XI... and it cracks...

I am under the impression that the XI primarch never hatched...

I don't care what GW says. One of the missing Primarchs will always be Sigmar in my book!

I have skimmed through the past few pages and I apologize if someone did mention it already. I am surprised no one mentioned Fear to Tread (the HH Blood Angels novel, hope i have the title right).

Anyway in the beginning of the book Sanguinius is on campaign with Horus (already evil Horus). Sanguinius excuses himself to go deal with another BA fallen to the black rage. Horus follows him and watches as Sanguinius tries to first reason with the enraged warrior and then ultimately kills him. Horus confronts Sanguinius and Sanguinius asks Horus not to tell the emperor. I believe he (sanguinius) says something along the lines of , I will not have the blood angels suffer the same fate as those "other" legions that were expunged from imperial records.

I took the implementation to mean that the 2 expunged legions had some deep genetic flaw that inhibited their ability to function on any normal level. Perhaps both legions divulged into a black rage or some other similarly catastrophic episode that could not be rectified.

Fear to Tread shows Sangy killing a marine fallen to the Red Thirst, Black Rage is a result of the psychic backlash from his death. But the most likely thing is that one legion was fine on a common level, but their primarch made a deal with a xenos and had to be taken out. The soldiers were merged with the Ultramarines. Then the other was horrifically mutated and the Emperor set Young Spence(Leman) on him

He told Horus that he did not want a third empty plinth in the Imperial palace to be the only legacy left of him and his legion.

 Lint wrote:
He told Horus that he did not want a third empty plinth in the Imperial palace to be the only legacy left of him and his legion.

Instead he got 9!

The Emprah knowing about the Red Thirst wouldnt have changed the heresy that much would it?

One of them fell between the couch cushions the other's still in the lost and found.
But I also seem to recall Wobbly Model Syndrome showed both primarchs without naming them. Apparently they joined Horus during the heresy but were discarded when they were unworthy of him.

As for "The Lost", perhaps they were actually lost. Either in a tragic warp accident, gene-seed failure or turned to the runious powers.

The Primarch of the Space Marine Legion I created is the 'Lost'. I'm still working some details out, helped by a couple of the Horus Heresy than me

In the HH book "Primarchs" I saw something interesting:




Anybody else read the book and catch that line?

Yes... Yes... Yes...

But everyone knows that the Primarch of the XI was Ostrominus...

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

JohnnoM wrote:at least one was created an absorbed, supposedly by the ultramarines.

That does seem to be hinted as one of the reasions the Ultrablingers are so much larger then other Legions. It could also be down to the fact that they control a small stellar empire within the Imperium and have a large armount of worlds to draw Marine recrutes from.

Until we have some hard facts on Legion sizes ( the books are all over the place, they where around 10,000-20,000, then they jumped up to 50,000-100,000 with the UM being 250,000) this is all speculation and fanfiction territory. =o]

Should be noted Legion size has increased again the FW HH series. Before the Heresy Sons of Horus are stated to be 130,000-170,000, World Eaters 150,000, Death Guard 95,000, Emperor's Children ~50,000. The World Eaters figure is "mid-tier" in size.

From what I hear, they are writing a book (or perhaps a series) on the Lost Primarchs. From all the evidence I've gathered, the Primarchs of the 2nd & 11th Legions were traitors from before the Horus Heresy.
There are several direct references made in the Horus Heresy novels but there is also a more subtle hint. It takes places during the book Legion where Lord Commander Namatjira talks about reporting the Alpha Legion to the Council of Terra for dissolution and says, " It wouldn't be the first time a Legion Astartes has overstepped the mark, after all." Its possible the Primarchs and there Legions commited some kind of atrocity (possibly falling to the taint of Chaos) and where forced to dissolve. This could also explain the Council of Nikaea that banned Librarian units and use of psykers in the Imperium.

 Lint wrote:
In the HH book "Primarchs" I saw something interesting:

Spoiler:

In the Iron Hands book at the end the Eldar farseer has failed to convince Ferrus of the impending civil war. The Farseer then says to another Eldar that there is one more they can try to convince, the one who was lost and in the empire of the battle king. The battle king was demonstrated to be Guilliman earlier in the book, so what the Farseer was describing was another primarch whom they could reach and use for their purposes (whatever those are) and this alleged primarch was in Guilliman's Ultima empire and that he was a lost primarch.

Anybody else read the book and catch that line?

I believed that to be reference to

Storm Lord wrote:......

Ah ok, that actually makes sense now. I still want it to be Sigmar though....

UPDATE:
The blood ravens are also noted as being one of the possible missing legions but this is in fact not true. Their primarch is rogal dorn. They are imperial fist successors as they possess three of the imperial fists main relics. Their battle barge, dorns mantle artificer armour and rogals blade power sword and on the world of Kronus their is a shrine dedicated to his honour with blood raven iconography on it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/04 08:34:13

So this is true or false some of you guys said the Blood ravens were loyalist thousand sons? So can i get a clarification ? Thanks, And who is Ostrominus?

the answer is quite clear.

Ostrogoths

 Frecklesonfire wrote:

UPDATE:
The blood ravens are also noted as being one of the possible missing legions but this is in fact not true. Their primarch is rogal dorn. They are imperial fist successors as they possess three of the imperial fists main relics. Their battle barge, dorns mantle artificer armour and rogals blade power sword and on the world of Kronus their is a shrine dedicated to his honour with blood raven iconography on it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/04 08:34:13

So this is true or false some of you guys said the Blood ravens were loyalist thousand sons? So can i get a clarification ? Thanks, And who is Ostrominus?

Yup read Age of Darkness.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:

UPDATE:
The blood ravens are also noted as being one of the possible missing legions but this is in fact not true. Their primarch is rogal dorn. They are imperial fist successors as they possess three of the imperial fists main relics. Their battle barge, dorns mantle artificer armour and rogals blade power sword and on the world of Kronus their is a shrine dedicated to his honour with blood raven iconography on it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/04 08:34:13

So this is true or false some of you guys said the Blood ravens were loyalist thousand sons? So can i get a clarification ? Thanks, And who is Ostrominus?

Probably Loyalist Thousand Sons.

The book A Thousand Sons has a scene where a psyker (Kallista) has a vision of the future,

"The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"

Interesting thanks

It was a legion entirely made of superhuman squats!

No, but really, I thought of making a chapter that was the second legion's successors, and end up turning to the tau because of constantly being abandoned by imperial forces. But then I realized that If I did that then I would make a ton of people unhappy.

Ok this is REALLY far out of the park and i mean so far taht im just saying this because im an ork player. What if the brainboyz left the orks for the 2 lost legions. It could explain why the orks seem to be the second most hated race beside for the chaos. Our maybe the Dark Eldar got to the before the Emperor . . .

The Deathwatch I don't know much about, but it is in my understanding that the Grey Knights are the loyalists from the traitor legions such as; Garviel Loken and Nathaniel Garro, who left their legions because they did not what to betray the emperor and were from the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and the Death Guard. But the Deathwatch I dunno you could be right... I'll look it up.

I better way to discover what the Emperors orignal purpose for the Primarchs and their legions would be would be to take a look at the legions before they gained their Primarchs. Each Primarch was tainted and or changed by how he grew up. Each Legion was changed and or tainted by the influences the Primarchs brought with them from this. And considering that each Legion was made from their Primarchs gene seed then it would make sense that they would have some semblance of the purpose that they were originally intended for.
As it is each legions and every legions purpose isnt exact. And as we really dont know much about each legion pre-primarch except for the Death Guard (Dusk Raiders) it may be pointless in speculating as to their purposes. However I would like to point on the fact that the Dusk Raiders reportedly had a similar combat doctrine after they met Mortarion as before. I would say this is a good show that if they were made for a purpose each and I really dont know why he wouldnt make them with purposes in mind, that some legions may have retained this purpose.

I would think it unlikely that either of the 'lost' primarchs were corrupted by chaos, because it seems they were known to at least some of the other primarchs, and they in turn were all so terribly naive about chaos (with the exception of Magnus, although he was unaware of its true nature.)

One of them faced sanction with his legion at the hands of the Space Wolves, that seems clear. (I would assume 'The Purged)

The Emperor's gifts were not distributed evenly amongst his sons. I think it's conceivable one of the missing primarchs is Malcador, infirm and weak of body but possessing psychic powers second only to the Emperor, an incredible intellect and a seemingly hugely extended lifespan.

There would be no better place to hide 'The Lost' than in plain sight.

Ollius Pious is a perpetual not a Primarch, the Eldar never mention a Primarch in the Iron Hands (Primarchs) Story. They need Ollius to save the Emperor on Horus' battlebarge so the Emperor can kill Horus and introduce the stalemate to the universe. If either side wins the civil war then the Eldar would eventually become extinct, either from a new renewed Loyalist crusade or the bloodbath following the Chaos victory and Horus's descend into self destruction.
Thats my take on that one.

Regarding the two missing primarchs, using the new discovery order and the astrological signs theory. http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/II.html

The third one found was the glue guy (Fortune). Horus has already been proven to be full of self doubt, which leads to jealously. See Fear to Tread and his jealously of Sanguinius. i suspect he was always a snake in the grass, always being close to the Emperor and having his ear. Fortune would have been a huge threat to Horus's popularity and standing, so i think Horus set him up (whispering campaign) leading to his and his legions destruction by the others (or Space Wolves if you believe the rumours). It was Horus decision to rebel not the influence of the Chaos Gods as Horus saw the lies for what they were, he still by his own will chose to rebel.

The second last one, would therefore be the (High Priestess) akin to Magnus, a psyker. Either he was corrupted before being found or rejected the Imperium as he already understood the warp, so didnt believe the lies. His legion then was given to Guiliman to absorb into the Ultramarines. Whether he then fled or was destroyed. Its implied Lorgar was close to one or both of the missing primarchs in The First Heretic, perhaps the (High Priestess) told Lorgar some or all of the truth about the warp, which then started him along the path of rebellion.

If my fan theories are correct, then they would imply Horus would have started the heresy anyway, with or without the Chaos Gods involvement. Afterall all the Word Bearers did was bring the traitors together and find out who would or wouldnt follow, it was Horus that started the Heresy.

The Wohle idea of "Sigmar the Lost Primarch" isnt so far fetched, except for the fact that the primarch AND legion are missing, implying that they where lost AFTER being discovered by the Emperor. Hey, matey they are just hidden away on terra?

Ember

It's impossible that they were folded into the Deathwatch as the Deathwatch was founded far later, in the Apocryphon Conclave. This took place with Chapter Masters, not Primarchs.

Wow. This thread was necro'ed twice. Is that a new record?

edit: FOUR times. This thread has been necro'ed four times. Dayum.

My theory has always been tied into the founding of the Inquisition. The main Ordos are against Chaos, Aliens and Heretics as the greatest threats to the Imperium.

As the Emperor founded the Inquisition personally, and the fate of his sons always weighed heavilly on him, it would make sense for an organisation founded to root out corruption to mirror the causes of corruption that claimed his own sons, and caused him such pain. As Chaos claimed 9 of the Primarchs, it would make sense that the other two were corrupted by heresy and alien influence, respectively.

All the known Primarchs landed on human worlds, but would it not cause conflict if one grew up in an alien environment? We already have examples of integrated human/alien civilizations with the Interex and Diasporex, so if a Primarch was raised in one of these cultures, surely they would have issues integrating with the Imperium due to its genocidal and xenophobic attitudes to non-humans?

Secondly, apart from the rules governing the use of Psykers, the other strict rule the Emperor kept was regarding the use and development of certain technologies. For one Primarch to be a (non-Chaos influenced) Heretek would be a neat exploration of this avenue of corruption, and he would have to be reluctantly taken out, as he would otherwise risk the alliance with Mars, splitting the Imperium in two. My theory is that one of the missing Primarchs is actually the author of 'A Logical Discourse', which would provide a mirror to Lorgar's book founding the Imperial Creed.

Regarding the astrological theory, I would move Magnus to the High Priestess, and have the Heretek represent the Magus, and the Xenos defender as Fortune. If you take out the warp elements of the Magus, it does describe a Heretek quite well.

I'm gonna go with something different than what's been mentioned. I always saw the expunged records pointing to what happened to Varus' Roman Legions after they were massacred by Arminius' German tribes in the Teutoberg Forest. The legionaries and their supply train were all either killed or enslaved, and their Imperial eagles captured, incredibly embarrassing and arguably the biggest defeat for the Romans. Those numbered legions were wiped from record and would never be raised again. Similarly, the II and XI legions were wiped out, to a man, and they were expunged from records and the surviving primarchs swore to never mention them again. Giving them names like the "Purged" and the "Forgotten" could be hints as to how they were wiped out or all inclusive, as to say both legions were destroyed and to be forgotten.

Did this really need a 2 year bump?

 Flanker wrote:
I'm gonna go with something different than what's been mentioned. I always saw the expunged records pointing to what happened to Varus' Roman Legions after they were massacred by Arminius' German tribes in the Teutoberg Forest. The legionaries and their supply train were all either killed or enslaved, and their Imperial eagles captured, incredibly embarrassing and arguably the biggest defeat for the Romans. Those numbered legions were wiped from record and would never be raised again. Similarly, the II and XI legions were wiped out, to a man, and they were expunged from records and the surviving primarchs swore to never mention them again. Giving them names like the "Purged" and the "Forgotten" could be hints as to how they were wiped out or all inclusive, as to say both legions were destroyed and to be forgotten.

This. Additionally, it gave fans an opportunity to create their own Legion. I think it's been said by one of the Horus Heresy authors that the missing Legions will never be elaborated on. They are there for the fans to make their own stories.

I'd still bet that one day GW/BL will in fact tell all about the Missing Legions.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd still bet that one day GW/BL will in fact tell all about the Missing Legions.

It's in their "Break Glass in Case of Bankruptcy" emergency box.

So here is my theory

Both legions locked away on terra in some vault.
Evidence:
Malcadore says to Leman Russ, when asked about the missing primarchs/legions that they will return someday.
Later, he tells Dorn that they are lost forever. Possibly a reference that corn will not see them rise, as he will di,. and Leman will.
Thus stating that Leman will return.
The missing legions took part in the great crusade, but where not part of the heresy at least 50 years before Isstvan V. Possibly they where hidden as a last resort.
The Ultramarines swelled in size, possibly members of these legions. But if they did not triple in size, ore even double, so I believe that they simply received loyalist Trator Marines

That's all from me,
Ember

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
So here is my theory

Both legions locked away on terra in some vault.
Evidence:
Malcadore says to Leman Russ, when asked about the missing primarchs/legions that they will return someday.
Later, he tells Dorn that they are lost forever. Possibly a reference that corn will not see them rise, as he will di,. and Leman will.
Thus stating that Leman will return.
The missing legions took part in the great crusade, but where not part of the heresy at least 50 years before Isstvan V. Possibly they where hidden as a last resort.
The Ultramarines swelled in size, possibly members of these legions. But if they did not triple in size, ore even double, so I believe that they simply received loyalist Trator Marines

That's all from me,
Ember

That is not stating Russ will return... And that's quite the conclusion you're drawing there from Malcador's conversations with the two.

The missing legions being hidden as a last resort would mean that they would only be used in a dire emergency right? So a theoretical direct attack on the Imperial Palace, by oh I don't know, let's say a massive army of super soldiers with the assistance of otherworldly daemons, would certainly be seen as a dire emergency wouldn't it?

The Word Bearers legionaries specualated that the Ultramarines massive size was the result of the influx of other legions marines. The rival legion of the Ultramarines was just bitter that they were being chastised by the Emperor for their efforts, and did not wish to admit that the Ultramarines could have become so large on their own, so they like to attribute that size to the addition of marines from other legions. It makes them feel much better about the whole "Our biggest rival is better than us" thing.

 English Assassin wrote:
Sigh... Rick Priestley's original intention, according to an old interview, was that the two missing chapters has sided with the Traitors when the Horus Heresy began, only to return to the Imperial side when the Warmaster's true nature was revealed. To have been struck from Imperial records, and thus not remembered as traitors, was as reward, not a punishment.

No one followed up on English Assassin's great post? The source is an old 40k Radio phone interview. Link here. I'm transcribing the relevant bit below. Parts are garbled and unintelligible. If you can make it out or correct what I have written, please do so.

Rick Priestly interview with 40k radio (The relevant discussion begins around 1:22:00)
"The Space Marine chapters are all based on the Roman legions. Because I've always been interested in history and asian history. When I could--I got my degree in ancient history and archaeology. So a lot of the ideas that went into 40k stand a little bit from that kind of background. The Roman legion were the model for the Space Marine chapters. The idea of a legion which were historied and never refounded as it happened is quite a strong one. And then the other idea was that Roman emperors who were damned [unintelligible]. The Egyptian pharaohs, the same thing happened to them, and all their pictures would be cut out, replaced by [unintelligible]. And I thought it was quite nice. And I carried it to two Space Marine chapters whose [unintelligible]. Why? I had never decided. It was along the lines of they had done some bad and then made up for it. And their reward for their redemption was to be removed. So the terrible bad things they did would be forgotten. And their redemption would be forgotten."
Q: Was there ever any plans to ultimately reveal or give history--
"No."

Priestley continues to discuss the benefits of leaving it a mystery. I'm not transcribing the whole thing, but here is a relevant bit:
"If you leave them, who knows who these two are, you can always go back and decide, but the moment you decide you leave the mystery out of it."
"Once you revisit it, you've almost spoiled it in some way."

Priestly continues to discuss the Dark Angels. In the beginning, the Dark Angels past was a secret. Something bad had happened and they were trying to make up for it. He expresses regret that GW developed that secret and said the resulting story of the unforgiven was a bit "shallow." Some quotes:
"So long as that was a mystery, it could've been anything, which gave it some character. Once it became described, it became a shame. I felt that the betrayal of splitting into two rival factions was a little shallow. It should've been something with a little more depth and character to it."

Fabius Bile had clones of them. Until abaddon destroyed them.

The Purged could refer to being deleted from the records.

I didn't look through all of this thread, but I know the Deathwatch is regularly mentioned as one possibility. We all know this isn't true, but I did want to throw this into the ring...

Black Library's new Beast Arises series is supposed to cover, among other things, the creation of the Deathwatch. This event is set after the completion of the Horus Heresy (~1500 years?). I think I deleted the email, as I can't find it, but one of the emails I got from Black Library said something like... an alien threat might just be what created the need for the Deathwatch (hint, hint).

 Ignatius wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd still bet that one day GW/BL will in fact tell all about the Missing Legions.

It's in their "Break Glass in Case of Bankruptcy" emergency box.

Yeah, if worst ever comes to worst, they will probably pull an End Times and have the Missing Primarchs return out of nothing to save the Imperium.

 Kriswall wrote:
I didn't look through all of this thread, but I know the Deathwatch is regularly mentioned as one possibility. We all know this isn't true, but I did want to throw this into the ring...

Black Library's new Beast Arises series is supposed to cover, among other things, the creation of the Deathwatch. This event is set after the completion of the Horus Heresy (~1500 years?). I think I deleted the email, as I can't find it, but one of the emails I got from Black Library said something like... an alien threat might just be what created the need for the Deathwatch (hint, hint).

I think that the deathwatch will arise as a result of one of the following events.

1. The Knights errant lay the foundation under Malcador the Sigilite for Inquisition based chapters like Grey Knights and Deathwatch. Because Xenos are a knowable threat to your averages Astartes it wasn't kept secret like the GK were. I base this on the premise that Garro is a knight Errant but is probably not a founding member of the GK, which means he could be a founder of the death watch.

2. The far morel likely is that it arises out of the Beast incident when when the Ork Waaaagh!! Threatens Terra.

I don't think these options are mutually exclusive and the ground work may be laid by one and completed by another, but i think that is the origins of the Deathwatch. I don't think the deathwatch was one of the missing chapters.

Realistically, I think these two legions were left out so you could make your own early game. the game has progressed to such a degree that this option is no longer relevant and they just haven't bothered to fill in the fluff.

Honestly, they may have left our galaxy. Maybe their behind the tyranids. I still dont think that they murged with Ultras.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Fear to Tread shows Sangy killing a marine fallen to the Red Thirst, Black Rage is a result of the psychic backlash from his death. But the most likely thing is that one legion was fine on a common level, but their primarch made a deal with a xenos and had to be taken out. The soldiers were merged with the Ultramarines. Then the other was horrifically mutated and the Emperor set Young Spence(Leman) on him

The myth that the Imperium suffered not the xenos to live during the GC is blatantly false. In Fulgrim, they consider making the Laer protectorates of the IoM. In Horus Rising, Horus tries to subsume the Kinebranch into the IoM. Other examples exist, but these were the two that came to mind right off the bat. The point here is that consorting with Xenos would not be anywhere near reason enough to destroy an entire Legion - especially when the Emperor allows Legions to enter into open combat (WE and SW) without so much as censoring the involved parties.

The only real answer is:

We dont know. The Great Gods Of Games Workshop probably dont know, until They write it.

As was said.

Ist their break glass in case of bankrupcy...

Failsafe.

Just please dont desroy the whole galaxy, like with AoS.

I kinda hoping at least one of the missing Primarchs are female, simply because it would make female space marines canon and I think the reaction in the fandom would be amusing.

It's been stated as recently as one of the horus herasy novels that the emperor has never made female marines since the base code for them is based on him.

GoonBandito wrote:I kinda hoping at least one of the missing Primarchs are female, simply because it would make female space marines canon and I think the reaction in the fandom would be amusing.

HoundsofDemos wrote:It's been stated as recently as one of the horus herasy novels that the emperor has never made female marines since the base code for them is based on him.

Already getting one

Seriously though, female primarch? The fallout would be hilarious!

 blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

GoonBandito wrote:I kinda hoping at least one of the missing Primarchs are female, simply because it would make female space marines canon and I think the reaction in the fandom would be amusing.

HoundsofDemos wrote:It's been stated as recently as one of the horus herasy novels that the emperor has never made female marines since the base code for them is based on him.

Already getting one

Seriously though, female primarch? The fallout would be hilarious!

And would also happen to make Space Marines look even more slowed. No, thank you.

 blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

GoonBandito wrote:I kinda hoping at least one of the missing Primarchs are female, simply because it would make female space marines canon and I think the reaction in the fandom would be amusing.

HoundsofDemos wrote:It's been stated as recently as one of the horus herasy novels that the emperor has never made female marines since the base code for them is based on him.

Already getting one

Seriously though, female primarch? The fallout would be hilarious!

Would definitely change the whole dynamic of the Sisters of Battle haha

Here's my theory for the missing Primarchs:

One of those two was secretly converted and became the believer of one of the C'Tan. When he led his Legion to perform Bio-transference, the Emperor found out and ordered Leman to stop the process. No one knew where did he go.

Another one was trying to become a warp god himself, and his Legion got purged after the discovery. Again, the Primarch escaped.

That could possibly explained why both sides refused to talk about the missing Primarchs before, during, and after the Heresy.

It would be great if it turned out one of them was female, it would be the absolute best way to give a nice big FU to the sisters of battle, and by proxy the fans of the SOB, who along with die hard Tau and some AM fans are easily the most annoying army fans in the game.

BNG1991 wrote:
Here's my theory for the missing Primarchs:

One of those two was secretly converted and became the believer of one of the C'Tan. When he led his Legion to perform Bio-transference, the Emperor found out and ordered Leman to stop the process. No one knew where did he go.

Another one was trying to become a warp god himself, and his Legion got purged after the discovery. Again, the Primarch escaped.

That could possibly explained why both sides refused to talk about the missing Primarchs before, during, and after the Heresy.

What info is this based on?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BNG1991 wrote:
Here's my theory for the missing Primarchs:

One of those two was secretly converted and became the believer of one of the C'Tan. When he led his Legion to perform Bio-transference, the Emperor found out and ordered Leman to stop the process. No one knew where did he go.

Another one was trying to become a warp god himself, and his Legion got purged after the discovery. Again, the Primarch escaped.

That could possibly explained why both sides refused to talk about the missing Primarchs before, during, and after the Heresy.

What info is this based on?

Rather than information sources, I based it on the mindset of the Emperor at the time. Namely, his hatred towards xenophobia and fanaticism.

From his xenophobia side, he could not stand that his son was willingly converted himself into some sort of xeno machines.

On the other hand, the Emperor couldn't tolerate fanaticism, let alone allow his sons became a 'god'.

BNG1991 wrote:Here's my theory for the missing Primarchs:

One of those two was secretly converted and became the believer of one of the C'Tan. When he led his Legion to perform Bio-transference, the Emperor found out and ordered Leman to stop the process. No one knew where did he go.

Another one was trying to become a warp god himself, and his Legion got purged after the discovery. Again, the Primarch escaped.

That could possibly explained why both sides refused to talk about the missing Primarchs before, during, and after the Heresy.

Trying to become a Warp God is a bit hefty. Daemon Prince? Most certainly (especially since we've seen that in the fluff with a few of the other Primarchs). As for following the C'Tan? I don't see any reason that they would. Falling to the Ruinous Powers seems more likely, and I'm not aware of any Astartes who have ever fallen in with Xenos.

I prefer to think that at least one of the Legions fell to the Ruinous Powers and was obliterated (thus becoming referred to as 'The Purged'). The other either suffered some sort of complication soon after being discovered, his Legion was dissolved and their records expunged; or he too fell too Chaos. Both of the records being expunged as a result of both falling to Chaos can be made plausible if those Legions were small enough to be effectively eradicated as well as their heresy taking place before the Horus Heresy really begins.

EmberlordofFire8 wrote:The only real answer is:

We dont know. The Great Gods Of Games Workshop probably dont know, until They write it.

As was said.

Ist their break glass in case of bankrupcy...

Failsafe.

Just please dont desroy the whole galaxy, like with AoS.

If they bring in the Primarchs of the missing Legions, they definitely will bugger it up in one way or another. It'd be near impossible for them not to. Bringing back those two Legions and/or any Successor Chapters (suspected or confirmed) would probably be their safest bet. But knowing GW, they'd ruin it somehow haha.

If they were to do End times for 40K, then they'd have a better time bringing the Primarchs we know of that just went missing, like Corax, Russ of Khan.

The end times weren't bad. I actually enjoyed them, with all the lose ends being tied off.


IF YOU ARE READING THIS, GAMES WORKSHOP, DO NOT PULL AN AoS ON 40k!!!!!!!!!!

 IllumiNini wrote:


Would definitely change the whole dynamic of the Sisters of Battle haha

Why would it change the whole dynamic? Because there can only ever be one army comprised of females? Why would a long lost legion of female Space Marines prevent the existence of the Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy?

 GoonBandito wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:


Would definitely change the whole dynamic of the Sisters of Battle haha

Why would it change the whole dynamic? Because there can only ever be one army comprised of females? Why would a long lost legion of female Space Marines prevent the existence of the Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy?

You're reading too much into what I said and connecting dots that simply aren't there. I never said anything about the limit of one female armed force... anywhere. And I never said anything about a lost legion of female soldiers preventing the existance of the SOB.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:


Would definitely change the whole dynamic of the Sisters of Battle haha

Why would it change the whole dynamic? Because there can only ever be one army comprised of females? Why would a long lost legion of female Space Marines prevent the existence of the Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy?

You're reading too much into what I said and connecting dots that simply aren't there. I never said anything about the limit of one female armed force... anywhere. And I never said anything about a lost legion of female soldiers preventing the existance of the SOB.

But that was your implication even if you didn't explicitly say it. that is like saying that the existence of tempest scions or Ad-mech would change the dynamic of IG. a space marine force that is entirely female would change the rules of the game exactly 0 as they would be functionally the same as normal male SM. It would radically change the fluff of specifically the SM, but I think it would impact the SOB very little, in that they are two completely different parts of the imperial faction.

 GKTiberius wrote:
But that was your implication even if you didn't explicitly say it.

That implication only exists because you guys read it into my statement. Saying something affects the dynamic of something else doesn't at all mean that one cannot exist while the other does. Not at all. To think that's what I meant is nothing less than foolish if you ask me.

When I wrote that statement, what I intended it to mean was:

The differences between one of the Space Marine Legions being female and none of them being female with respect to the SoB would be like the differences between a kid growing up with aunts and uncles actively involved in their lives and a kid without. I know that's a stretched analogy at best an my wording over-exaggerates that meaning, but hell: this is the internet; I was bound to be misinterpreted.

I don't think they'd be female. Nothing against anyone, but the chance that the Emperor made female marines and then put them all into one legion doesn't make sense. It would be like cloning sheep, getting 8'000'000 white ones and 1'000'000 brown ones, in a completely random order, and then putting all the brown ones together. Have you ever seen a farmer do that?


Ember

For the one referred to a "The Lost", my theory is that he was truly lost. When the great crusade found the planet he had ended up on, he was long since dead. Maybe there was an accident, maybe he died fighting heroically, or maybe he just landed on a death world and wasn't equipped to handle giant man-eating beasts as a toddler, but he was dead nonetheless. Not wanting to waste 10,000+ space marines, the big E just gave them a coat of blue paint and told them, "You were always Ultramarines, right guys?".

Thesanguinesword wrote:
My final evidence is the grey knight power armour is modified mk 3 iron armour.

I have no idea what you're basing that on. The legs are much more like MK6 than MK3. The torso is more like MK4. The right shoulder pad is the only part that's like MK3.

If this theory held water then their terminator armour would be very different...

Grey Knights use MkVIII armor.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Grey Knights use MkVIII armor.

But considering that the Two Lost Primarchs went missing before (or during) the HH, what they currently use is a bit irrelevant.

The Grey Knights geneseed is taken directly from the Emperor Himself, so definitely not one of the Missing Primarchs. They, in fact, have purer geneseed than any other Space Marine currently existing.

Regular Space Marine:
Emperor -> Primarch -> Mixing Bowl of Science and 10,000 years of geneseed degradation -> Modern Astartes

Grey Knight:
Emperor -> Grey Knight in M41.

Yup. They are as pure as it is possible to be. They'd still have 10,000 years of use to contend with, but they've got the best technology and knowledge to reduce degradation.

And their banks of geneseed were full when they first appeared. One has to wonder if they have ever even run through the original supply yet to even need to start growing new sets.

I'm not sure why it keeps being brought up that the missing primarchs were turned to chaos or took part in the horus heresy.

The novel The First Heretic has Magnus and Lorgar talking about them and their vows to never discuss what happened 40-50 years (the vow was taken for both primarchs on the same day) before the heresy.

Horus wasn't waramster by a long stretch when the events of the missing 2 took place, and it is said Lorgar is the chosen of the Gods to start the civil war, which indicates he was the first to be corrupted by chaos.

The book really sheds a lot of light as well on other details.

At one part, it is said that one of the Primarchs had done something so terrible that the Gal Vorbak contemplate killing him in his gestation tube during the time travel vision to prevent the attrocity.

Combining this with Sanguinius telling Horus he was afraid that the Emperor will purge his chapter if he finds out about the Red Thirst, I hypothesize that the one Primarch had a similar geneseed problem that took hold of him. He killed his brother primarch which led to him and his chapter being purged by the Space wolves. The surviving legion, who had no primarch was then combined with the ultramarines.

An event like that would be so horrible and be such a bad mark on the legions it would be purged from records. One Primarch was Lost, the other Forgotten.

It's pretty much stated in a few novels that at least one legion was purged by the Emperors order by Russ and the Spacewolves.

So by the evidence, we know this much:
1. One primarch did some unspeakable stuff and got eliminated for it.
2. The other had something wrong with the geneseed, and it became such a problem that they were eliminated.

So what we really need are more details within those confines.

The surviving legion, who had no primarch was then combined with the ultramarines.

This myth has been debunked so many times, it is amazing that it keeps getting repeated. Even the GW writers have debunked this, ffs.

The UM were a super-huge Legion because they had the most planets to recruit from, the most-efficient recruiting methods, the most-stable of geneseed. Efficient Legion is efficient.

 Psienesis wrote:

The surviving legion, who had no primarch was then combined with the ultramarines.

This myth has been debunked so many times, it is amazing that it keeps getting repeated. Even the GW writers have debunked this, ffs.

The UM were a super-huge Legion because they had the most planets to recruit from, the most-efficient recruiting methods, the most-stable of geneseed. Efficient Legion is efficient.

Even if they were at the time the largest already, taking in 30,000 Marines would still cause the largest legion to swell in size.

From what we know the 2 primarchs disappeared at the same time since the oath taken was for both and at that same time the ultras saw a spike in legion growth.

 stormotron wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

The surviving legion, who had no primarch was then combined with the ultramarines.

This myth has been debunked so many times, it is amazing that it keeps getting repeated. Even the GW writers have debunked this, ffs.

The UM were a super-huge Legion because they had the most planets to recruit from, the most-efficient recruiting methods, the most-stable of geneseed. Efficient Legion is efficient.

Even if they were at the time the largest already, taking in 30,000 Marines would still cause the largest legion to swell in size.

From what we know the 2 primarchs disappeared at the same time since the oath taken was for both and at that same time the ultras saw a spike in legion growth.

The theory that the Ultramarines conveniently swelled in numbers is a classic 40K case of 'Correlation' being mixed up with 'Causation'. Yes, the two missing Legions went missing around the same time as this growth in numbers occurred, but that doesn't mean that the missing Legions we're absorbed. I'm with Psienesis on this.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 stormotron wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

The surviving legion, who had no primarch was then combined with the ultramarines.

This myth has been debunked so many times, it is amazing that it keeps getting repeated. Even the GW writers have debunked this, ffs.

The UM were a super-huge Legion because they had the most planets to recruit from, the most-efficient recruiting methods, the most-stable of geneseed. Efficient Legion is efficient.

Even if they were at the time the largest already, taking in 30,000 Marines would still cause the largest legion to swell in size.

From what we know the 2 primarchs disappeared at the same time since the oath taken was for both and at that same time the ultras saw a spike in legion growth.

The theory that the Ultramarines conveniently swelled in numbers is a classic 40K case of 'Correlation' being mixed up with 'Causation'. Yes, the two missing Legions went missing around the same time as this growth in numbers occurred, but that doesn't mean that the missing Legions we're absorbed. I'm with Psienesis on this.

You know the theory is false wen the author of the book conataining the theory says that it's false.

Yea that's been confirmed by word of god to be false. What is almost express cannon is that the wolves wiped out at least one legion.

 dusara217 wrote:
You know the theory is false wen the author of the book conataining the theory says that it's false.

That helps too hahaha

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Yea that's been confirmed by word of god to be false. What is almost express cannon is that the wolves wiped out at least one legion.

And that bring us round to the whole "The Lost" and "The Purged" thing.

Another thing could be that the Primarch just didn't want to be a warrior.



But Lorgar said to Night Haunter, on Istvaan V, that he was the only one out of twenty who wanted to be a scholar.



Or maybe the "Lost" primarch was just never found. That could explain allot.

 English Assassin wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Relatively homogenous? I remember reading (in Tales of Heresy) that the War Hounds (Pre-Angron World Eaters) were pretty terrifying on the field, and the Thousand Sons were prone to genetic defects and also had a high concentration of pskers in their midst. This can't be coincidence and merely something each legion developed over time, can it?

I don't see that being prone to spontaneous mutation was likely something the Emperor planned for the Thousand Sons, no. If I remember A Thousand Sons correctly, their genetic defects and psychic powers were ventured to be the product of warp storms during their geneseed's cultivation, and only arose some years into the crusade. So far as the World Eaters go, surely the point made in After Desh'ea (in which Angron kills the Chapter Master and a number of their Captains) is that, with the exception of Khârn, they were not bloodthirsty maniacs like their Primarch.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:The way I see it is the Emp did plan out certain roles for his Primarchs, but perhaps not in the way we see them. There is no doubt though that the worlds they landed on shaped them into what they are and perhaps in some cases deviated from the path the Big E saw for them.

in short
Legions made for specific roles, Primarchs altered slightly from their roles due to planets.

The problem is that there is no positive evidence whatsoever for this, and to presume it would require credulity-stretching coincidence (or a really cheap 'just as planned') for the Primarchs to have fortuitously landed on worlds on which they would develop to suit some supposed plan.

The thousand sons psychic potential was because of their homeworld. Even regular humans there were more prone in "Thousand Sons"


What do you mean "no credulity"... It's said the primarchs were made with a purpose and then The Chaos daemon tells Argal Tal and later Horus, that the Primarchs were scattered to ruin this plan AND that certain planets were intentional chosen by the Chaos Gods. So I'd say the theory is spot on just not specific enough in that they changed from their specific purposes due to chaos's intervention

It's in character speculation maybe but easily the best theory we have to go on. Which are the kinds of things we base our entire lives on.

I'm guessing the Legion the got purged did something similar to Huron and his Corsairs in modern 40K. Maybe even to the extent that they broke the "no gods, no cults" Imperial dogma, maybe by venerating their Primarch as some sort of god. Hell, maybe they even went so far as to deny the Emperor as Lord of the Imperium, following their Primarch as the one true Imperial savior, or something. Maybe mix that up with some sort of genocidal campaign by the Primarch and company that had to be stopped?

It was obviously something that threatened the Emperor's rule, as I would think that it would take something of that caliber to be such a "Big Deal" in the pre-heresy era. Especially when you have to consider that it had to be worse than the other legions did in the Crusades, when even those things did not get them taken down by the Emperor, until the Magnus fiasco.

 stormotron wrote:


The book really sheds a lot of light as well on other details.

At one part, it is said that one of the Primarchs had done something so terrible that the Gal Vorbak contemplate killing him in his gestation tube during the time travel vision to prevent the attrocity.

I find this some what of a stretch to be honest. Whatever they did was bad enough to have all records of them destroyed, primarchs vow never to speak of them and so on and so on. buuuut rebelling against the Emperor, turning to Chaos and nearly killing the Emperor and destroying the Imperium was NOT enough to get Horus et al purged from imperial record?

What could they have done then?

- Kill a brother primarch? Fulgrim kills Manus but he is still on record.
- Developed Psychic/Sorcerous powers against the Emperors commands? Magnus just got a slap on the wrist initially and even after he royally fethed up, Propsero burning was Horus deceiving Russ
- Rebelled? Think we know the answer there already
- Became a weird mutated thing? Sanguinius has wings, Magnus is a one eyed red skinned thing
- Been psychotic? Angron and Curze
- Had a secrete twin/love child? Alpharius and Omegon
- turned their legion into mutant monsters? Corax, Sanguinius (kind of)
- be a crazed religious fanatic totally contri to the Emperors will? Lorgar


For the OP GK and DW were created after all the shenanigans of Crusade/Heresy.

TheWanderer wrote:

I find this some what of a stretch to be honest. Whatever they did was bad enough to have all records of them destroyed, primarchs vow never to speak of them and so on and so on. buuuut rebelling against the Emperor, turning to Chaos and nearly killing the Emperor and destroying the Imperium was NOT enough to get Horus et al purged from imperial record?

Most of the Imperium likely knows nothing about Horus and co. For the higher ups however having records of the archenemy of the Imperium is quite important. Removing all records of something still around and trying to kill you isn't the wisest move. The two unknown legions on the other hand? Probably entirely wiped out so records aren't necessary.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

I find this some what of a stretch to be honest. Whatever they did was bad enough to have all records of them destroyed, primarchs vow never to speak of them and so on and so on. buuuut rebelling against the Emperor, turning to Chaos and nearly killing the Emperor and destroying the Imperium was NOT enough to get Horus et al purged from imperial record?

Most of the Imperium likely knows nothing about Horus and co. For the higher ups however having records of the archenemy of the Imperium is quite important. Removing all records of something still around and trying to kill you isn't the wisest move. The two unknown legions on the other hand? Probably entirely wiped out so records aren't necessary.

Judging by the contents of Space Wolf Omnibus, and similar books, Horus is talked about in a similar manner to how the Devil is talked about in many Christian circles. ie he's the Archenemy, Great Deceiver, Father of all Heresy, Murderer of Babies, Eater of Intestines, generic bad deity title, etc. etc.

Yea how much people know about the heresy in general and about Horus has never been portrayed consistently

Thesanguinesword wrote:
The blood ravens are also noted as being one of the possible missing legions but this is in fact not true.

True

Thesanguinesword wrote:
Their primarch is rogal dorn.

False. It's long been known that their primarch was Magnus. The magpies are surviving loyalist Thousand Sons.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Yea how much people know about the heresy in general and about Horus has never been portrayed consistently

True, I always recall in original fluff (ok it was prob not original original but original to when I started!) that Chaos itself was largely not know about in any form and all of the conglomerate of chaos et al as denied by the authorities of the Imperium and hushed up, even to the degree that whole armies of the Imperial guard would be killed for having been involved in fighting with Chaos and Marines were not used against them wherever possible because they were to valuable to kill off and mind wiping didn't work well.

A lot has changed fluff wise!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

I find this some what of a stretch to be honest. Whatever they did was bad enough to have all records of them destroyed, primarchs vow never to speak of them and so on and so on. buuuut rebelling against the Emperor, turning to Chaos and nearly killing the Emperor and destroying the Imperium was NOT enough to get Horus et al purged from imperial record?

Most of the Imperium likely knows nothing about Horus and co. For the higher ups however having records of the archenemy of the Imperium is quite important. Removing all records of something still around and trying to kill you isn't the wisest move. The two unknown legions on the other hand? Probably entirely wiped out so records aren't necessary.

A lot of the "bad" stuff the primarchs did was before the Heresy and yet they didn't get their records wiped and they themselves put down. Why would these other two?

More guardsmen have died to cover up the Inquisition then Chaos.

,


I was thinking, an interesting "ending" to 40k would be the primarchs returning, the emperor being resurected but the Astronomicon failing. The Imperium would be shattered, but the Primarchs would embark on a new great crusade to rebuild it.


But GW will probably have everyone move to the Webway cause the Galaxy explodes. THanks, Age Of Sigmar!

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
More guardsmen have died to cover up the Inquisition then Chaos.

,


I was thinking, an interesting "ending" to 40k would be the primarchs returning, the emperor being resurected but the Astronomicon failing. The Imperium would be shattered, but the Primarchs would embark on a new great crusade to rebuild it.


But GW will probably have everyone move to the Webway cause the Galaxy explodes. THanks, Age Of Sigmar!

Wow, a good way to move 40k into the next phase without completely ruining the lore... then again, knowing GW, they'll completely botch the attempt with terrible writing and rules that are twice as bad as they are now :(

 dusara217 wrote:

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
More guardsmen have died to cover up the Inquisition then Chaos.

,


I was thinking, an interesting "ending" to 40k would be the primarchs returning, the emperor being resurected but the Astronomicon failing. The Imperium would be shattered, but the Primarchs would embark on a new great crusade to rebuild it.


But GW will probably have everyone move to the Webway cause the Galaxy explodes. THanks, Age Of Sigmar!

Wow, a good way to move 40k into the next phase without completely ruining the lore... then again, knowing GW, they'll completely botch the attempt with terrible writing and rules that are twice as bad as they are now :(

too be honest the emperor coming back and a new great crusade starting would very much echo Sigmar returning and starting a crusade to retake the mortal realms wouldn't it?

Yes but with less plot holes. I'm still trying to figure out how dryads work in AoS, since the (old) lord said they couldn't survive outside of Athel Loren for more than a few hours.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Yea how much people know about the heresy in general and about Horus has never been portrayed consistently

I know in one of the Assassin books, one assassin oversees a cult leader talking about the Emperor's 18 sons, and thinks "What idiots, everyone knows the Emperor only has 9 sons."

TheWanderer wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
More guardsmen have died to cover up the Inquisition then Chaos.

,


I was thinking, an interesting "ending" to 40k would be the primarchs returning, the emperor being resurected but the Astronomicon failing. The Imperium would be shattered, but the Primarchs would embark on a new great crusade to rebuild it.


But GW will probably have everyone move to the Webway cause the Galaxy explodes. THanks, Age Of Sigmar!

Wow, a good way to move 40k into the next phase without completely ruining the lore... then again, knowing GW, they'll completely botch the attempt with terrible writing and rules that are twice as bad as they are now :(

too be honest the emperor coming back and a new great crusade starting would very much echo Sigmar returning and starting a crusade to retake the mortal realms wouldn't it?

Except that, if handled correctly (preposterous as the idea may seem), it could, potentially, spawn a variety of new factions, and add depth to others. For instance, if I were to have a hand in it, it would be just the Astronomican failing, Emps is born into Immaterium as new God of Order, queue Codex: Angels of Fire (as seen in Talon of Horus), with Sanguinius and other dead Primarchs acting as his Greater Daemons/Daemon Princes, some live Primarchs guided back into Reality by Emps, 13th Black Crusade hits like a ton of bricks, Cadia falls (make a AM supplement called Cadians, Cadians become mostly the people from Cadia's colonies, with legit Cadians being special characters and Elite survivors), glorious campaigns about Primarchs duking it out in the 41st Millenium, Great WAAAGGHHH!!! starts gaining even more momentum, perhaps Khan ends up in a life-or-death struggle to stop the final summoning of G'mork. Dark Angels have a huge schism as Lion becomes disgusted at what they have become. Russ returns and leads his people against Magnus (of course), Vulkan seeks the destruction of the Inquisition (wasting billions of lives, and all), Dorne orchestrates the Imperial defense against the Black Legion, facing Perturabo once more. So many glorious stories that could be told.

Tand Corax!?

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
Tand Corax!?

I don't know enough about Corax to say anything about him, except that he might end up in a pissing contest with Alphegon.

Tand Corax and Alphegon.


Dakka needs better spellers.

We don't know if Alpharius or Omegon is still alive and kicking, so I used a contraction of the two names.

At lest on of them is Alive (or not killed by loyalists) and since all Alphalegionairs have the same face...


I read a theory once that Sanguinus replaced himself with another legionar to test his legion. That test was the Black rage.

Interesting.