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I'd still bet that one day GW/BL will in fact tell all about the Missing Legions.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd still bet that one day GW/BL will in fact tell all about the Missing Legions.

It's in their "Break Glass in Case of Bankruptcy" emergency box.

So here is my theory

Both legions locked away on terra in some vault.
Evidence:
Malcadore says to Leman Russ, when asked about the missing primarchs/legions that they will return someday.
Later, he tells Dorn that they are lost forever. Possibly a reference that corn will not see them rise, as he will di,. and Leman will.
Thus stating that Leman will return.
The missing legions took part in the great crusade, but where not part of the heresy at least 50 years before Isstvan V. Possibly they where hidden as a last resort.
The Ultramarines swelled in size, possibly members of these legions. But if they did not triple in size, ore even double, so I believe that they simply received loyalist Trator Marines

That's all from me,
Ember

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
So here is my theory

Both legions locked away on terra in some vault.
Evidence:
Malcadore says to Leman Russ, when asked about the missing primarchs/legions that they will return someday.
Later, he tells Dorn that they are lost forever. Possibly a reference that corn will not see them rise, as he will di,. and Leman will.
Thus stating that Leman will return.
The missing legions took part in the great crusade, but where not part of the heresy at least 50 years before Isstvan V. Possibly they where hidden as a last resort.
The Ultramarines swelled in size, possibly members of these legions. But if they did not triple in size, ore even double, so I believe that they simply received loyalist Trator Marines

That's all from me,
Ember

That is not stating Russ will return... And that's quite the conclusion you're drawing there from Malcador's conversations with the two.

The missing legions being hidden as a last resort would mean that they would only be used in a dire emergency right? So a theoretical direct attack on the Imperial Palace, by oh I don't know, let's say a massive army of super soldiers with the assistance of otherworldly daemons, would certainly be seen as a dire emergency wouldn't it?

The Word Bearers legionaries specualated that the Ultramarines massive size was the result of the influx of other legions marines. The rival legion of the Ultramarines was just bitter that they were being chastised by the Emperor for their efforts, and did not wish to admit that the Ultramarines could have become so large on their own, so they like to attribute that size to the addition of marines from other legions. It makes them feel much better about the whole "Our biggest rival is better than us" thing.

 English Assassin wrote:
Sigh... Rick Priestley's original intention, according to an old interview, was that the two missing chapters has sided with the Traitors when the Horus Heresy began, only to return to the Imperial side when the Warmaster's true nature was revealed. To have been struck from Imperial records, and thus not remembered as traitors, was as reward, not a punishment.

No one followed up on English Assassin's great post? The source is an old 40k Radio phone interview. Link here. I'm transcribing the relevant bit below. Parts are garbled and unintelligible. If you can make it out or correct what I have written, please do so.

Rick Priestly interview with 40k radio (The relevant discussion begins around 1:22:00)
"The Space Marine chapters are all based on the Roman legions. Because I've always been interested in history and asian history. When I could--I got my degree in ancient history and archaeology. So a lot of the ideas that went into 40k stand a little bit from that kind of background. The Roman legion were the model for the Space Marine chapters. The idea of a legion which were historied and never refounded as it happened is quite a strong one. And then the other idea was that Roman emperors who were damned [unintelligible]. The Egyptian pharaohs, the same thing happened to them, and all their pictures would be cut out, replaced by [unintelligible]. And I thought it was quite nice. And I carried it to two Space Marine chapters whose [unintelligible]. Why? I had never decided. It was along the lines of they had done some bad and then made up for it. And their reward for their redemption was to be removed. So the terrible bad things they did would be forgotten. And their redemption would be forgotten."
Q: Was there ever any plans to ultimately reveal or give history--
"No."

Priestley continues to discuss the benefits of leaving it a mystery. I'm not transcribing the whole thing, but here is a relevant bit:
"If you leave them, who knows who these two are, you can always go back and decide, but the moment you decide you leave the mystery out of it."
"Once you revisit it, you've almost spoiled it in some way."

Priestly continues to discuss the Dark Angels. In the beginning, the Dark Angels past was a secret. Something bad had happened and they were trying to make up for it. He expresses regret that GW developed that secret and said the resulting story of the unforgiven was a bit "shallow." Some quotes:
"So long as that was a mystery, it could've been anything, which gave it some character. Once it became described, it became a shame. I felt that the betrayal of splitting into two rival factions was a little shallow. It should've been something with a little more depth and character to it."

Fabius Bile had clones of them. Until abaddon destroyed them.

The Purged could refer to being deleted from the records.

I didn't look through all of this thread, but I know the Deathwatch is regularly mentioned as one possibility. We all know this isn't true, but I did want to throw this into the ring...

Black Library's new Beast Arises series is supposed to cover, among other things, the creation of the Deathwatch. This event is set after the completion of the Horus Heresy (~1500 years?). I think I deleted the email, as I can't find it, but one of the emails I got from Black Library said something like... an alien threat might just be what created the need for the Deathwatch (hint, hint).

 Ignatius wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd still bet that one day GW/BL will in fact tell all about the Missing Legions.

It's in their "Break Glass in Case of Bankruptcy" emergency box.

Yeah, if worst ever comes to worst, they will probably pull an End Times and have the Missing Primarchs return out of nothing to save the Imperium.

 Kriswall wrote:
I didn't look through all of this thread, but I know the Deathwatch is regularly mentioned as one possibility. We all know this isn't true, but I did want to throw this into the ring...

Black Library's new Beast Arises series is supposed to cover, among other things, the creation of the Deathwatch. This event is set after the completion of the Horus Heresy (~1500 years?). I think I deleted the email, as I can't find it, but one of the emails I got from Black Library said something like... an alien threat might just be what created the need for the Deathwatch (hint, hint).

I think that the deathwatch will arise as a result of one of the following events.

1. The Knights errant lay the foundation under Malcador the Sigilite for Inquisition based chapters like Grey Knights and Deathwatch. Because Xenos are a knowable threat to your averages Astartes it wasn't kept secret like the GK were. I base this on the premise that Garro is a knight Errant but is probably not a founding member of the GK, which means he could be a founder of the death watch.

2. The far morel likely is that it arises out of the Beast incident when when the Ork Waaaagh!! Threatens Terra.

I don't think these options are mutually exclusive and the ground work may be laid by one and completed by another, but i think that is the origins of the Deathwatch. I don't think the deathwatch was one of the missing chapters.

Realistically, I think these two legions were left out so you could make your own early game. the game has progressed to such a degree that this option is no longer relevant and they just haven't bothered to fill in the fluff.

Honestly, they may have left our galaxy. Maybe their behind the tyranids. I still dont think that they murged with Ultras.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Fear to Tread shows Sangy killing a marine fallen to the Red Thirst, Black Rage is a result of the psychic backlash from his death. But the most likely thing is that one legion was fine on a common level, but their primarch made a deal with a xenos and had to be taken out. The soldiers were merged with the Ultramarines. Then the other was horrifically mutated and the Emperor set Young Spence(Leman) on him

The myth that the Imperium suffered not the xenos to live during the GC is blatantly false. In Fulgrim, they consider making the Laer protectorates of the IoM. In Horus Rising, Horus tries to subsume the Kinebranch into the IoM. Other examples exist, but these were the two that came to mind right off the bat. The point here is that consorting with Xenos would not be anywhere near reason enough to destroy an entire Legion - especially when the Emperor allows Legions to enter into open combat (WE and SW) without so much as censoring the involved parties.

The only real answer is:

We dont know. The Great Gods Of Games Workshop probably dont know, until They write it.

As was said.

Ist their break glass in case of bankrupcy...

Failsafe.

Just please dont desroy the whole galaxy, like with AoS.

I kinda hoping at least one of the missing Primarchs are female, simply because it would make female space marines canon and I think the reaction in the fandom would be amusing.

It's been stated as recently as one of the horus herasy novels that the emperor has never made female marines since the base code for them is based on him.

GoonBandito wrote:I kinda hoping at least one of the missing Primarchs are female, simply because it would make female space marines canon and I think the reaction in the fandom would be amusing.

HoundsofDemos wrote:It's been stated as recently as one of the horus herasy novels that the emperor has never made female marines since the base code for them is based on him.

Already getting one

Seriously though, female primarch? The fallout would be hilarious!

 blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

GoonBandito wrote:I kinda hoping at least one of the missing Primarchs are female, simply because it would make female space marines canon and I think the reaction in the fandom would be amusing.

HoundsofDemos wrote:It's been stated as recently as one of the horus herasy novels that the emperor has never made female marines since the base code for them is based on him.

Already getting one

Seriously though, female primarch? The fallout would be hilarious!

And would also happen to make Space Marines look even more slowed. No, thank you.

 blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

GoonBandito wrote:I kinda hoping at least one of the missing Primarchs are female, simply because it would make female space marines canon and I think the reaction in the fandom would be amusing.

HoundsofDemos wrote:It's been stated as recently as one of the horus herasy novels that the emperor has never made female marines since the base code for them is based on him.

Already getting one

Seriously though, female primarch? The fallout would be hilarious!

Would definitely change the whole dynamic of the Sisters of Battle haha

Here's my theory for the missing Primarchs:

One of those two was secretly converted and became the believer of one of the C'Tan. When he led his Legion to perform Bio-transference, the Emperor found out and ordered Leman to stop the process. No one knew where did he go.

Another one was trying to become a warp god himself, and his Legion got purged after the discovery. Again, the Primarch escaped.

That could possibly explained why both sides refused to talk about the missing Primarchs before, during, and after the Heresy.

It would be great if it turned out one of them was female, it would be the absolute best way to give a nice big FU to the sisters of battle, and by proxy the fans of the SOB, who along with die hard Tau and some AM fans are easily the most annoying army fans in the game.

BNG1991 wrote:
Here's my theory for the missing Primarchs:

One of those two was secretly converted and became the believer of one of the C'Tan. When he led his Legion to perform Bio-transference, the Emperor found out and ordered Leman to stop the process. No one knew where did he go.

Another one was trying to become a warp god himself, and his Legion got purged after the discovery. Again, the Primarch escaped.

That could possibly explained why both sides refused to talk about the missing Primarchs before, during, and after the Heresy.

What info is this based on?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BNG1991 wrote:
Here's my theory for the missing Primarchs:

One of those two was secretly converted and became the believer of one of the C'Tan. When he led his Legion to perform Bio-transference, the Emperor found out and ordered Leman to stop the process. No one knew where did he go.

Another one was trying to become a warp god himself, and his Legion got purged after the discovery. Again, the Primarch escaped.

That could possibly explained why both sides refused to talk about the missing Primarchs before, during, and after the Heresy.

What info is this based on?

Rather than information sources, I based it on the mindset of the Emperor at the time. Namely, his hatred towards xenophobia and fanaticism.

From his xenophobia side, he could not stand that his son was willingly converted himself into some sort of xeno machines.

On the other hand, the Emperor couldn't tolerate fanaticism, let alone allow his sons became a 'god'.

BNG1991 wrote:Here's my theory for the missing Primarchs:

One of those two was secretly converted and became the believer of one of the C'Tan. When he led his Legion to perform Bio-transference, the Emperor found out and ordered Leman to stop the process. No one knew where did he go.

Another one was trying to become a warp god himself, and his Legion got purged after the discovery. Again, the Primarch escaped.

That could possibly explained why both sides refused to talk about the missing Primarchs before, during, and after the Heresy.

Trying to become a Warp God is a bit hefty. Daemon Prince? Most certainly (especially since we've seen that in the fluff with a few of the other Primarchs). As for following the C'Tan? I don't see any reason that they would. Falling to the Ruinous Powers seems more likely, and I'm not aware of any Astartes who have ever fallen in with Xenos.

I prefer to think that at least one of the Legions fell to the Ruinous Powers and was obliterated (thus becoming referred to as 'The Purged'). The other either suffered some sort of complication soon after being discovered, his Legion was dissolved and their records expunged; or he too fell too Chaos. Both of the records being expunged as a result of both falling to Chaos can be made plausible if those Legions were small enough to be effectively eradicated as well as their heresy taking place before the Horus Heresy really begins.

EmberlordofFire8 wrote:The only real answer is:

We dont know. The Great Gods Of Games Workshop probably dont know, until They write it.

As was said.

Ist their break glass in case of bankrupcy...

Failsafe.

Just please dont desroy the whole galaxy, like with AoS.

If they bring in the Primarchs of the missing Legions, they definitely will bugger it up in one way or another. It'd be near impossible for them not to. Bringing back those two Legions and/or any Successor Chapters (suspected or confirmed) would probably be their safest bet. But knowing GW, they'd ruin it somehow haha.

If they were to do End times for 40K, then they'd have a better time bringing the Primarchs we know of that just went missing, like Corax, Russ of Khan.

The end times weren't bad. I actually enjoyed them, with all the lose ends being tied off.


IF YOU ARE READING THIS, GAMES WORKSHOP, DO NOT PULL AN AoS ON 40k!!!!!!!!!!

 IllumiNini wrote:


Would definitely change the whole dynamic of the Sisters of Battle haha

Why would it change the whole dynamic? Because there can only ever be one army comprised of females? Why would a long lost legion of female Space Marines prevent the existence of the Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy?

 GoonBandito wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:


Would definitely change the whole dynamic of the Sisters of Battle haha

Why would it change the whole dynamic? Because there can only ever be one army comprised of females? Why would a long lost legion of female Space Marines prevent the existence of the Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy?

You're reading too much into what I said and connecting dots that simply aren't there. I never said anything about the limit of one female armed force... anywhere. And I never said anything about a lost legion of female soldiers preventing the existance of the SOB.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:


Would definitely change the whole dynamic of the Sisters of Battle haha

Why would it change the whole dynamic? Because there can only ever be one army comprised of females? Why would a long lost legion of female Space Marines prevent the existence of the Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy?

You're reading too much into what I said and connecting dots that simply aren't there. I never said anything about the limit of one female armed force... anywhere. And I never said anything about a lost legion of female soldiers preventing the existance of the SOB.

But that was your implication even if you didn't explicitly say it. that is like saying that the existence of tempest scions or Ad-mech would change the dynamic of IG. a space marine force that is entirely female would change the rules of the game exactly 0 as they would be functionally the same as normal male SM. It would radically change the fluff of specifically the SM, but I think it would impact the SOB very little, in that they are two completely different parts of the imperial faction.

 GKTiberius wrote:
But that was your implication even if you didn't explicitly say it.

That implication only exists because you guys read it into my statement. Saying something affects the dynamic of something else doesn't at all mean that one cannot exist while the other does. Not at all. To think that's what I meant is nothing less than foolish if you ask me.

When I wrote that statement, what I intended it to mean was:

The differences between one of the Space Marine Legions being female and none of them being female with respect to the SoB would be like the differences between a kid growing up with aunts and uncles actively involved in their lives and a kid without. I know that's a stretched analogy at best an my wording over-exaggerates that meaning, but hell: this is the internet; I was bound to be misinterpreted.

I don't think they'd be female. Nothing against anyone, but the chance that the Emperor made female marines and then put them all into one legion doesn't make sense. It would be like cloning sheep, getting 8'000'000 white ones and 1'000'000 brown ones, in a completely random order, and then putting all the brown ones together. Have you ever seen a farmer do that?


Ember

For the one referred to a "The Lost", my theory is that he was truly lost. When the great crusade found the planet he had ended up on, he was long since dead. Maybe there was an accident, maybe he died fighting heroically, or maybe he just landed on a death world and wasn't equipped to handle giant man-eating beasts as a toddler, but he was dead nonetheless. Not wanting to waste 10,000+ space marines, the big E just gave them a coat of blue paint and told them, "You were always Ultramarines, right guys?".

Thesanguinesword wrote:
My final evidence is the grey knight power armour is modified mk 3 iron armour.

I have no idea what you're basing that on. The legs are much more like MK6 than MK3. The torso is more like MK4. The right shoulder pad is the only part that's like MK3.

If this theory held water then their terminator armour would be very different...