Guys, the Golden Throne is going to be my very 1st Grant Tournament (GT) ever and I need help. I can't decide which Necron list to bring! Yes, your votes in this thread will determine what cron list I will take there.
Basically, the Golden Throne is a 2-day 1500pt Grand Tournament (GT) consisting of 6 games and it will take place next weekend (Aug. 4-5). It will be the first major tournament to utilize the new 6th Edition rules. And as it is happening literally right in my own backyard, I made it a priority to go. For those interested, you can find more information about it here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420614.page
I will probably only have time for 1 practice game and then it's off to 2 days of gaming. Then the details of my battles will be posted here in this thread.
I like the third list. If your not taking any Crypteks anyways then the Destroyer Lord has been dominating in my games so far in 6th. If you're used to them tarpitting then he changes that And they seem to crush most units.You can also put him at the front of the unit to absorb small arms fire for a while.
Why not play one of your other armies you used in 5th instead? Buying an abusive Necron army build for 6th is lame.
Jy2 isn't buying, because he's already owned a Necron army since 5th Ed (IIRC). Plus it was our Necron Airforce vs Crowe-Purifiers battle report that showed everyone the terrifying potential of mass flyers. Sure Necrons are popular and great in 5th ed, but saying Jy2 is joining is misleading. He's played many games in 5th Ed and continues do so in 6th.
The three lists posted by Jy2 is far from pure flyers. It has other elements, which will make it more balance and better equipped to take on most other competitive list.
@ the complaining guy, these lists are barely worth noting as cheesy, by your measure people would simply choose to forego running any flyers at all? 3 AV11 flyers aren't terribly difficult to down. Pain in the rear, of course. But not game-breaking. I'd suggest you adapt rather than just throw your hands up. Flyers are easily dealt with by a fair few armies.
Why not play one of your other armies you used in 5th instead? Buying an abusive Necron army build for 6th is lame.
Jy2 isn't buying, because he's already owned a Necron army since 5th Ed (IIRC). Plus it was our Necron Airforce vs Crowe-Purifiers battle report that showed everyone the terrifying potential of mass flyers. Sure Necrons are popular and great in 5th ed, but saying Jy2 is joining is misleading. He's played many games in 5th Ed and continues do so in 6th.
The three lists posted by Jy2 is far from pure flyers. It has other elements, which will make it more balance and better equipped to take on most other competitive list.
" Necron Airforce vs Crowe-Purifiers battle report that showed everyone the terrifying potential of mass flyers"
No it didn't dude. I called out the scythe spam list shortly after the codex was released. Any monkey with his finger up his nose can spam sycthes.
40K isn't Starcraft 2. These types of list are: cut and paste cheesy bull$hit. There is nothing original here, just defiance at GW's move away from competitive WAAC play.
The game isn't made for it, and personally, I will "encourage" people to move away from this playstyle going forward.
Flyer spam is hardly broken. For an example, take the 1500pts Necron Air Force vs. Driagowing battle report posted by Reecius. It's rock paper scissors with flyer spam unable to do anything against Deathstar. Same can be said against horde armies. Deathstars are also not going to win them all. There's been a couple battle reports where the Dark Harlistar lost.
6th Ed isn't like 5th Ed's 'one list to rule them all'. There's a lot more variety of competitive strategies in 6th Ed than there was in 5th Ed.
Jy2 isn't a WAAC type of player. He goes for balance, and that's what I see in all three lists he's posted.
Fyi, If you don't like WAAC environment, then don't go to tournaments. People go to tournaments to win and have a great time. It's exciting to play against the best of the best. It is a competition after all. Stick to your casual games if it isn't your thing.
Cpt Stubbs wrote:I like the third list. If your not taking any Crypteks anyways then the Destroyer Lord has been dominating in my games so far in 6th. If you're used to them tarpitting then he changes that And they seem to crush most units.You can also put him at the front of the unit to absorb small arms fire for a while.
I am also somewhat intrigued by the destroyer lord as well. I think he'll make my wraiths a lot more survivable as he can tank not only small arms fire, but missile launchers that would otherwise double-out my wraiths. Plus, with challenges now, he's more survivable in assault as well. Either challenge me and only have 1 model able to attack my Dlord or don't and go to the back of the line. And then there is the Prefered Enemy....
However, despite the lack of a royal court, one thing I like about the Overlord on Command Barge is that he gives me a 3rd threat on the ground that my opponent has to worry about. He's also faster due to his chariot.
It's so hard to decide sometimes....
bricksxe wrote:I would say list 2. 1st and 3rd list I think has too many flyers and you will just lose your barges and wraiths before they get to do anything.
I agree that too many flyers unbalances the army, which is why I don't want to run a pure necron air force. However, list #1 & #2 actually has the same amount of flyers.
Fetterkey wrote:To me it seems like the second list is the strongest, though all of them are fairly competitive and I think you will do well with any of the three.
I hope so. I think these lists can compete with normal builds. How they will fare against the more extreme builds remain yet to be seen. I'm actually concerned with the deathstar armies.
But right now, it's looking more and more like #2.
SabrX wrote:*Rolls a D3*
The dice gods says list 1, but I think list 2 works.
More high strength and low AP large blasts goes a long ways toward Death Stars and hordes.
I'm sure a lot of people will at least have Aegis Defence Line, so watch out!
Yeah, you can almost roll a die to determine which list. How each performs will probably depend on what army they get matched up against.
I think list #1 is actually the most efficient all-comer's build. However, it may have some problems against deathstar armies.
List #2 will be better able to handle deathstar builds due to its doomscythe. However, it's going to have problems if the opponent brings a quad-gun emplacement and if I can't take out the quad-guns before my scythes arrive.
List #3 is more specialized to handle MSU and deathstars, but is then less able to deal with horde armies. Also, the risk of the doom scythes coming in late may just backfire on me. This list is probaby the least balanced of the 3 lists (though it is still a balanced list) due to its heavy reliance on offense that has to come from reserves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Darklight wrote:Jy2,
This is nothing but "joining the bandwagon" spam.
Why not play one of your other armies you used in 5th instead? Buying an abusive Necron army build for 6th is lame.
I apologize....but I may have been one of the persons to jumpstart the "bandwagon" with my Maximimum Threat Overlord or my Wraithwing necrons in 5th Edition.
Basically, this list is a translation of my 5E MTO and wraithwing builds. Only now in 6E, you have to include some flyers in your army if you have access to them. They are just too good not to use and provide elements that the necron army can sure use - fire power, mobility of scoring units and protection for your troops.
With that said, I think flyers are important, but I don't believe spamming them is the way to go (unless you are playing at higher points levels). Too many flyers IMO actually unbalances your army. It then becomes more of a rock-papers-scissors type of matchup. And that's why I try to add other units in my army like command barge, wraiths and annihilation barges to help balance it out.
I voted 3 because I think it brings the most punch of the three. Lets face it, its gona be a rock paper scissors match up bringing fliers at all really.
Draw guard with an officer of the fleet and it could really suck, that and horde as well. But, other then orks and IG I think that it will tear up MEQ armies. The quad gun is really over rated IMO so really no fear there. It's really gona be mass boyz, dakka jets and lootas from orks and hydras, officers, and vendettas from guard.
Although the mirror match could suck too, if they out spam fliers and go second they could really hurt you, have you thought about Immotek? His lightning storm seems better then ever at downing enemy fliers and dealing with the guard issue.
I don't think it's cheesy, the third one also looks like a lot of fun to play.....with any way
GL jy2, be sure to snap lots of table and army pics please!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also how did they rule the NS transport rule? I know here on YMDC it ws determined that units in the wrecked NS still took the s10 hit! This was strictly RAW of course so I was not sure if the TO's had addressed some of the issues concerning the NS and whip coils as well for that matter?
I like list 3 the most. Though I'm not the biggest fan of warriors in small squads. You could for the same amount of points drop on doom scythe for an A Barge, another whip coil wraith, and upgrade the untransported troops to immortals.
Seems like the Destroyer Lord/Dual Doomscythe list has taken the early lead. Most interesting indeed. Now all I have to do is start assembling my 4th scythe.
Darklight wrote:Edited - missread list
No worries.
Red Corsair wrote:I voted 3 because I think it brings the most punch of the three. Lets face it, its gona be a rock paper scissors match up bringing fliers at all really.
Draw guard with an officer of the fleet and it could really suck, that and horde as well. But, other then orks and IG I think that it will tear up MEQ armies. The quad gun is really over rated IMO so really no fear there. It's really gona be mass boyz, dakka jets and lootas from orks and hydras, officers, and vendettas from guard.
Although the mirror match could suck too, if they out spam fliers and go second they could really hurt you, have you thought about Immotek? His lightning storm seems better then ever at downing enemy fliers and dealing with the guard issue.
I don't think it's cheesy, the third one also looks like a lot of fun to play.....with any way
GL jy2, be sure to snap lots of table and army pics please!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also how did they rule the NS transport rule? I know here on YMDC it ws determined that units in the wrecked NS still took the s10 hit! This was strictly RAW of course so I was not sure if the TO's had addressed some of the issues concerning the NS and whip coils as well for that matter?
Interestingly enough, I think guards may provide the toughest challenge for a flyer list with all the AA options they have and the Officer of the Fleet. Fortunately, I have confidence that my ground forces will have enough resiliency to withstand Imperial firepower, even if my flyers were to come in late. Also, them coming in late may be a blessings in disguise. We will see.
Hordes will pose a problem indeed, especially if they are fearless. That is one of the reasons why I think orks may be a top tier army again. Nids, as Janthkin has shown, can also give my crons problems as well, though I think that I am better equipped to deal with them at 1500 than at 2K (they have less "toys" at the lower points levels).
The only other "flyer" army that may pose a threat to my crons is another necron flyer army. As far as flyers are concerned, I think crons are in a class by themselves (followed closely by IG). List #1 with its 3 annihilation barges can also handle enemy flyer armies (if it gets selected).
I did think about Immotekh. However, I just couldn't fit him in at 1500 and still have all the other "toys" that I wanted. Keep in mind that you also have to get a chronometron cryptek with Immo as well and those points add up fast. I'd probably have to give up my HQ and maybe 1 flyer (or a unit of wraiths) to try to fit him in. Besides, with the ease of killing vehicles in this edition, the 2 units of wraiths should be able to down any non-flyer vehicle fairly easily.
They actually haven't ruled the NS transport rule yet. I will bring it up to their attention. Thanks. My guess is that they are going to rule it as no S10 hits. So far in the own FAQ's, the rulings have tended to be more RAI than actual RAW.
Tarrasq wrote:I like list 3 the most. Though I'm not the biggest fan of warriors in small squads. You could for the same amount of points drop on doom scythe for an A Barge, another whip coil wraith, and upgrade the untransported troops to immortals.
Hmmmm.....you mean like this?
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Weave - 160
5x Warriors
Night Scythe
5x Warriors
Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Gauss
5x Immortals - Gauss
Ha ha yea I don't think the officer of the fleet is the biggest of worries, keep in mind that coming in on a 4+ on turn two is actually what we were used to for years but I do think it has a potential to help you indeed now that you mention it. As most flier games I have played so far seem to lend the advantage to the ones arriving second, as they get the drop on the others.
I actually predict the green tide to take top seat for the foreseeable future. They had some of the best generals before and always placed well, now with the incredible boost to mobs and bikes and, well, lots more I see them as the real threat now. But then again allies may mix this up in a major way
Yea I am glad to hear they are weighing in on a balance of RAW and RAI this seems to make the most sense.
TBH I'm not sure which list I prefer. 2 and 3 both look pretty good. At 1500 I would have to go with list 3 though. 2 Doom Scythes may dominate hard at that points level.
Personally I prefer the build of List 1 simply for the reliability. Having 3 night scythes for fly in later and to already more or less have 4 sets of av13 sitting on the field I think that it allows for early suppression/destruction. Granted, it may provide targets earlier, but you're relying less on something else pulling weight that, on bad dice rolls, won't show.
Just had 2 practice games with list #3 (with 2x Doomscythes and the Destroyer Lord). And who did I practice with? My recent sparring partner, SabrX, who by the ways is on a 3-game winning streak against me.
Just FYI, he is trying out some new lists that he doesn't normally run. Actually, he doesn't even play these 2 armies but he wanted to give them a try anyways.
1500 Necrons III (My list)
Wraiths were painted by Frontline Gaming. Awesome job and highly recommended for those who don't have the time to paint their own models!
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Weave - 160
5x Warriors
Night Scythe
5x Warriors
Night Scythe
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
Some proxies in this game: dakkajets (vendettas), gretchins (Imperial guardsmen) and nob bikers (fiends of slaanesh). Sorry, but orks are a new army that SabrX was just starting.
Warbiker Warboss - Attack Squig, Bosspole, Cybork Body, Power Klaw
Red Corsair wrote:Ha ha yea I don't think the officer of the fleet is the biggest of worries, keep in mind that coming in on a 4+ on turn two is actually what we were used to for years but I do think it has a potential to help you indeed now that you mention it. As most flier games I have played so far seem to lend the advantage to the ones arriving second, as they get the drop on the others.
I actually predict the green tide to take top seat for the foreseeable future. They had some of the best generals before and always placed well, now with the incredible boost to mobs and bikes and, well, lots more I see them as the real threat now. But then again allies may mix this up in a major way
Yea I am glad to hear they are weighing in on a balance of RAW and RAI this seems to make the most sense.
BTW, they FAQ'd it that when a NS explodes, the passengers go into reserves without taking the S10 hits.
A green tide list is very strong indeed. My only problem with it is that you probably won't get past Turn 3 in a timed event with the new ruleset.
My Warlord and his unit gets FNP while within 3" of an objective. His Warlord (proxy for his Biker Warboss) lets all friendly units within 12" of him roll an extra dice when running and use the highest roll.
Necron objective.
Ork objective.
My depoyment. I find that both Mysterious Forests that my troops are in give 2+ cover....woohoo!!!
I then look more closely and find out that the cover is good against grenades only.
Ork deployment.
We find out his lootas and gretchins are in a Carnivorous Forest! Also, his Mysterious Objective is the one where you halve your charge distance to a unit controlling it.
Left wraith unit w/Warlord (my Destroyer Lord) advance towards the left flank. I'm trying to stay out of the charge range of his nob bikers.
Right, smaller wraith unit jumps on top of the impassable terrain.
Annihilation barge moves 12".
In the Shooting phase, wraiths run and annihilation barge (AB) moves flat-out on top of the impassable terrain.
Orks 1
Spoiler:
Orks advance. He cannot assault because 1 unit is out of range and the other 2 units are on top of impassable terrain.
Gretchins and lootas move out of the carnivorous forest.
So my opponent focuses his shooting on the smaller wraith unit instead. He shoots down 1 wraith and put 1W on another.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
I get 2 doomscythes (the unpainted ones) and 1 night scythe in from reserves. They all move at cruising speed.
My wraiths then go after his left boy squad.
His quad-gun fires at one of the doomscythes but fail to do any damage.
Both doomscythes target the right boy squad and each of the death rays conveniently goes through 5 nob bikers (due to them being "conveniently" lined up ). Fortunately for my opponent, his warboss is in the very front so between 4+ cover, 5+ FNP (due to the T6 warboss) and Look Out Sir!, my doomscythes only kill 2 big choppa bikers. They pass morale.
Tesla-destructors then kills off 10 boyz from the right squad and 3 from the left squad that my wraiths are about to assault.
Also, my AB fires at his quad-guns but only manages to strip off 1W.
Both wraiths then charge the boys.
I kill about 20 and then sweep the unit.
Orks 2
Spoiler:
Both dakkajets come in. Payback! BTW, SabrX declares his Waagh! this turn.
Ork movement.
Dakkajets are just plain nasty! One of them strips off 2 hull points from 1 doomscythe (I should have jinked here but chose not to). The other penned 4 times and glanced 3 times my other doom scythe!
My doomscythe then proceeds to successfully jink off 5 of those pens/glances!!! It ends up immobilized and with just 1 hull point left.
Ork shooting proceeds to kill 1 wraith and put 1W on my Warlord.
Here, his boyz and nob bikers shoot down 3 wraiths.
They then assault him....
....and easily finishes him off.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Wraithstar (w/Warlord) goes after his grots and lootas. Doomscythe and night scythe advance.
The immobilized doom scythe flies off the board.
His quad-gun then fires at my weakened doom scythe (with just 1 hull point left) and blows it up. The blast then scatters onto his boys and kills 5.
Tesla from the night scythe kills 4 grots.
Once again, my AB fail to kill the quad-gun.
My wraiths then multi-charge both his grots and lootas. His runtherd challenges my Warlord in an attempt to minimize the carnage.
Note - when you multi-charge, you don't get the +1A bonus nor any bonuses such as Furious Charge.
It is of no use as I still sweep the grots and send the lone surviving loota running.
My Warlord then consolidates to control his quad-gun.
Orks 3
Spoiler:
Fearing that I will use his quad-gun against his own flyers, my opponent flies his dakkajets off the table.
His lone loota regroups on Insane Courage!!!
SabrX decides to go after my objective as he doesn't think he can wipe out my wraithstar contesting his objective.
Bikers then turbo-boost another 12" to get a little too close for my comfort.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Because we only have about 15 minutes left (we are timing this game), this will be the last game turn.
Both night scythe and doomscythe comes in (with doom scythe moving at cruising). Warriors disembark from the night scythe to block off his nob bikers.
I decide to let my opponent kill something and move my AB down off of the impassable terrain.
Now for the coup de grace. Night scythe moves at combat speed and drops off my warriors onto his objective.
Wraiths split up from the Warlord to go after his ork boyz.
One of my warriors get eaten up by the carnivorous forest.
My Warlord then uses the quad-gun to shoot down his loota. I was getting ready to rapid-fire him to death with my warriors should my Warlord fail.
AB shoots down 4 orks.
Lastly, I fire everything at his nob bikers - 3x5 warriors, the doomscythe and night scythe. In the end, everyone has a wound on him (the warboss is down to just 1W left), however, no model is killed.
Orks 4
Spoiler:
This is it. My opponent can't win because I've already got First Blood when my wraiths wiped out his ork boyz. However, he can at least make the score more respectable by taking my objective.
Both dakkajets move at cruising.
I can't fire at them with the quad-guns because I've already fired them on my turn.
His nob bikers move to within 1" of my screening warriors.
Orks prepare to assault.
Shooting by his dakka jets wipe out all but 1 warrior. However, 2 of them gets back up thanks to Reanimation Protocols to still block off his nob bikers' path to glory and my objective.
His bikers then assault and wipe them out but only manages to consolidate 2". He doesn't make it into contesting range of my objective!
Finally, his ork boyz blow up AB, but the explosion takes out the nob as well.
My opponent not only fails to take my objective, but he also fails to contest it as well.
Neither of us gets the Warlord. Both of us get +1 VP for having a unit in each other's deployment zone. I also get +1 VP for the first enemy kill of the game (his ork boyz). Finally, I get +6 VP's for claiming both objectives.
#1 for me. I'm just not sure what 2x5 warriors in #2/3 will do?
Backfield obj holding? VS an experienced player=neutralised.
Deploy them together with Lord?
Anything even remotely hard will still wipe them?
#3 is good with 2x DS with 6th ed rules but still going with #1 for balance, manouverability, hard hitting Wraithes and Barges for support.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, love the terrain but what did you designate each as? Its lovely but congested!
I really prefer the GK @1500 and improving the Dark Eldar/Eldar to the 1850pt level so that I can get in Eldrad and x2 more Kalabite Warrior Squads in Venoms but both are doing pretty well for me. Doom just adds so much to Venom spam that it's not unlike me to test 4 less missles to buy the spell and Spirit Stones for the Farseer. Anyways, hope this helps make your decision as this is what I would bring if I were attending. (i'd post a Tau list but i still get brutalized in games going much more than 5 turns by assault oriented lists, so i'll pass at tossing up my All-Comers' Tau list).
Because I need to work on my army for the tournament tomorrow, I will not have time to do the battle report for Practice Game #2. If you guys are interested, I may probably do it after the tournament.
Anyways, time for some last-minute painting!
@Painnen
Those are some nasty lists.
How many points is the Deldar army? It looks like its more than 1500pts?
I would love to go up against one of those lists in the tournament.
In hindsight, I should have had both my Ork Boyz and Nobz Bikers assault the Scarabs. With Str8 attacks, they have a decent chance inflicting instant death. Then again, Jy2 has high mobility and could easily get Line Breaker on top of First Blood. Perhaps having my Dakkajets go after his scoring units on the ground would also help.
That middle terrain piece with the high walls was declared impassible terrain. Jy2 used it to his advantage as he can place his Wraiths on top and not get assaulted. If it weren't for that terrain piece, My Orks might have stood a better chance.
Wraiths and Necron flyers are really powerful in this edition. I think Jy2's list is top notch.
Because I need to work on my army for the tournament tomorrow, I will not have time to do the battle report for Practice Game #2. If you guys are interested, I may probably do it after the tournament.
Anyways, time for some last-minute painting!
@Painnen
Those are some nasty lists.
How many points is the Deldar army? It looks like its more than 1500pts?
I would love to go up against one of those lists in the tournament.
that list is 1500pts. at 1850 i take eldrad and x2 more warrior/venoms and have to drop x1 missile from a bomber.
SabrX wrote:In hindsight, I should have had both my Ork Boyz and Nobz Bikers assault the Scarabs. With Str8 attacks, they have a decent chance inflicting instant death. Then again, Jy2 has high mobility and could easily get Line Breaker on top of First Blood. Perhaps having my Dakkajets go after his scoring units on the ground would also help.
That middle terrain piece with the high walls was declared impassible terrain. Jy2 used it to his advantage as he can place his Wraiths on top and not get assaulted. If it weren't for that terrain piece, My Orks might have stood a better chance.
Wraiths and Necron flyers are really powerful in this edition. I think Jy2's list is top notch.
Yeah, I saw the terrain on that board and just called it for the necrons. Not that you aren't an amazing player, but that board played to jy2's biggest strength. Keep going, always wanting to see the green skins pull out a win.
Painnen wrote:GK HQ:
Coteaz
Troops:
x3 Acolytes w/Razorback, TL-Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo
x3 Acolytes w/Razorback, TL-Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo
x3 Acolytes w/Razorback, TL-Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo
x3 Acolytes w/Razorback, TL-Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo
x3 Acolytes w/Razorback, TL-Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo
x3 Acolytes w/Razorback, TL-Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo
Fast Attack:
Storm Raven Gunship, TL-Lascannon, TL-Multimelta, x4 Mindstrikes
Storm Raven Gunship, TL-Lascannon, TL-Multimelta, x4 Mindstrikes
Heavy Support:
Drednaught, x2 TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo, Searchlights
Drednaught, x2 TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo, Searchlights
Drednaught, x2 TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo, Searchlights
Tried this, the 5th edition power build doesn't work anymore. With you troops needing to get out of their rides to control and contest, they need to be a lot more durable, and the amount of vehicles takes away from your ability to contest; Coteaz and those 18 Henchmen are the only things in the army you can contest with. Not a very good list at all.
I got to play JY2 today with my 1500 Necron list. I won't spoil it though as everyone relishes his battle reports! Lots of fun though against this list v my necrons!
Ministry wrote:I got to play JY2 today with my 1500 Necron list. I won't spoil it though as everyone relishes his battle reports! Lots of fun though against this list v my necrons!
I played against Julian, who is a very good player. He made it to the Ard Boyz Semi-finals last year and lost to Reece. This is the list he brought this time around.
His was the army that I didn't really wanted to face yet, as he beat Reece's Nob Bikers on Game #2. He also beat my Draigowing and drew with my Purifiers the last time we played in 5th Edition.
St. Celestine
10x Battle Sisters - Flamer, Multi-melta, Sister Superior w/Combi-flamer
10x Battle Sisters - Flamer, Multi-melta, Sister Superior w/Combi-flamer
SoB beating Nob Bikers?! Dang! I'd love to hear how Amerikon did that! Then again, with so many melta weapons, rending Heavy Bolters and Orks being lower initiative, I guess SoB in 6th Ed stands a better chance than they did in 5th.
Sounds like you are doing well, Jy2. Other than triple Long Fangs and Necron's single Doom Scythe, none of the lists seems to have a strong counter to your air superiority. Then again, the game against Long Fangs might swing either way. Str8 spam is the bane of Wraiths. It's up to the Lord to soak up as much damage as possible.
SabrX wrote:SoB beating Nob Bikers?! Dang! I'd love to hear how Amerikon did that! Then again, with so many melta weapons, rending Heavy Bolters and Orks being lower initiative, I guess SoB in 6th Ed stands a better chance than they did in 5th.
Sounds like you are doing well, Jy2. Other than triple Long Fangs and Necron's single Doom Scythe, none of the lists seems to have a strong counter to your air superiority. Then again, the game against Long Fangs might swing either way. Str8 spam is the bane of Wraiths. It's up to the Lord to soak up as much damage as possible.
Yeah, Amerikon's army puts up a ton of shots. The new sister's mid-range firepower is just incredible. Even I have to respect them up close....and this is without the older Divine Guidance! I admit, I thought the Sisters got nerfed badly when their new codex came out, but now I know that's not the case. They are still a strong and viable competitive army if you know how to play them.
You should give your sisters a second chance. They just may surprise you.
I was really concerned about my Space Wolf opponent. My Lord helps against his missiles, but Jaws can really do a number on my guys. But that's all I'm going to say for now....
---------------------------------------------
Here are some pictures of the place. We didn't play in the Convention Center, but rather, in the Tech Museum building.
First of all, this was how the tables were when I first got there:
Now here are a few pictures of just some of the armies:
Spoiler:
Necrons:
Trent, my Game #2 opponent's necrons.
Tyranids:
Janthkin's army. He ended Day 1 3-1, losing his only game to Tau.
Grey Knights:
Julian (aka Fuegan17), my Game #1 opponent's grey knights.
Draigowing!
Christian's grey knights. Christian, the winner of the Bay Area Open last year, had a perfect 4-0 on Day 1!
Eldar/Dark Eldar:
The Forces of Chaos:
Nurgle marines. I believe this was DocDragon's army.
Pure Tzeentch!
Conversion by Keno of Frontline Gaming.
Others:
Colorful Battle Sisters!
Now this is how the tables look like after they put terrain on them.
The pictures of the Tables with terrain on them..Is that the finished product?
It is hard to tell from one picture of course but some of those tables look like they have about 5% terrain on them..Shooting armies would have an absolute field day on some of those tables.
Farseer Dave wrote:The pictures of the Tables with terrain on them..Is that the finished product?
It is hard to tell from one picture of course but some of those tables look like they have about 5% terrain on them..Shooting armies would have an absolute field day on some of those tables.
Painnen wrote:i have more terrain laying around in 3 cardboard boxes that I DON'T use anymore than I see on that table. -ouch!!!
Yeah, overall terrain was sparse. Maybe only 15% at most....and that's being generous. BTW, the terrain there in that picture wasn't completely done, but it was in general not very full.
At least they put a LOS-blocking terrain (though somewhat small) in the middle so that purely shooty armies wouldn't have a field day. Guess how many wraiths I can cram behind those? Lol.
sudojoe wrote:you guys put the aegis lines after the terrain or before?
After.
Godless-Mimicry wrote:Awesome looking armies, looking forward to reding the report.
Thanks!
Well, I'm off to do battle again. See you guys after the event.
3 pieces of terrain per table at a GT? Sounds like false advertising to me. Nothing "grand" about that. It wouldn't have been enough for 5th's 25% and definitely not enough for 6th's 6d3 pieces.
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Tried this, the 5th edition power build doesn't work anymore. With you troops needing to get out of their rides to control and contest, they need to be a lot more durable, and the amount of vehicles takes away from your ability to contest; Coteaz and those 18 Henchmen are the only things in the army you can contest with. Not a very good list at all.
though it is just an early list, it's not bad by any rights. it puts out a metric ton of high powered/twin-linked shots. Each having the chance at either being Rending (AP2) or Instant Death. Yeah, it's got a weakness as do all lists in 6th (or so it seems as of yet) and I'm toying around with it to gain the benefit of either 3+ or 2+ saves in the troops' slot. Christian's list is probably more optimized but I also play DE/E and Tau on a weekly basis.
On a side note, I gave JY2's list to a co-worker of mine who mains Chaos Daemons but has played Necrons for about 6 months now and won twice against him. Got Hammer and Anvil both times as set-up, played Big Guns once and Purge the Alien once. I seized once with Coteaz and Coteaz prevented a seize. Won Big Guns 15-7 and Purge 10-8. Exactly what you said was a weakness was in fact a glaring weakness. My x3 T3 troops couldn't sit on objectives for 3 turns. They could barely last an explosion. I think the set-up gave me a big advantage with my dreds, as he'd have a hard time just showing up with the zooming flyers and blowing them up (which he never did after just one round of shooting). Getting 2+ turns to shoot up wraiths really neutered them aside from when the DLord tanked pretty well for him. (didn't get back up in our game rolled 1,1 respectively in each game)
Hope it went well. First GT is tough. Takes time to get use to the environment.
After your done I'd be interested to hear how you feel about wraiths now. My impression is that shooting is much more prevalent and powerful enough that they are not as dominating. Without the D-Lord for absorbing some shots they just don't seem as survivable as they did in 5th.
I am getting a LOT of broken images, is any one else? Hope I can get it sorted out as I like seeing all the armies.
Hope you fared well my friend! Too bad about the terrain but your army is plenty strong any ways, between zoom mode and phase shifters you were probably less affected then most..... or I hope! Can't wait to hear the results in the coming days though I won't lame you for taking some time to rest. Those things are exhausting!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nm on the pics, working now, my comp must have been acting up lol.
I thought it would be 2 games today, but I actually played 4! That's 8 games in 2 days!!! Didn't get enough sleep the last 2 nites so I am drained.
Painnen wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Tried this, the 5th edition power build doesn't work anymore. With you troops needing to get out of their rides to control and contest, they need to be a lot more durable, and the amount of vehicles takes away from your ability to contest; Coteaz and those 18 Henchmen are the only things in the army you can contest with. Not a very good list at all.
though it is just an early list, it's not bad by any rights. it puts out a metric ton of high powered/twin-linked shots. Each having the chance at either being Rending (AP2) or Instant Death. Yeah, it's got a weakness as do all lists in 6th (or so it seems as of yet) and I'm toying around with it to gain the benefit of either 3+ or 2+ saves in the troops' slot. Christian's list is probably more optimized but I also play DE/E and Tau on a weekly basis.
On a side note, I gave JY2's list to a co-worker of mine who mains Chaos Daemons but has played Necrons for about 6 months now and won twice against him. Got Hammer and Anvil both times as set-up, played Big Guns once and Purge the Alien once. I seized once with Coteaz and Coteaz prevented a seize. Won Big Guns 15-7 and Purge 10-8. Exactly what you said was a weakness was in fact a glaring weakness. My x3 T3 troops couldn't sit on objectives for 3 turns. They could barely last an explosion. I think the set-up gave me a big advantage with my dreds, as he'd have a hard time just showing up with the zooming flyers and blowing them up (which he never did after just one round of shooting). Getting 2+ turns to shoot up wraiths really neutered them aside from when the DLord tanked pretty well for him. (didn't get back up in our game rolled 1,1 respectively in each game)
GL JY2, and find some cover today!
Yeah, MSU troops have problems holding objectives unless they can remain out of LOS. But what's good about those smallish units is that most of the time, you are forced to ignore them. Because every shot you spend on them is a shot you are not taking on another unit that can actually hurt you. So although they are weak, they are actually quite resilient because most of the time, they are ignored. In all 8 of my games, not once did I lose all my troops.
The necron list is strong but it isn't unbeatable. I think a very shooty army or a horde army can possibly deal with it.
And yes, I did play against Christian's psyback-spam shooty InqGK's....twice!
Cpt Stubbs wrote:Hope it went well. First GT is tough. Takes time to get use to the environment.
After your done I'd be interested to hear how you feel about wraiths now. My impression is that shooting is much more prevalent and powerful enough that they are not as dominating. Without the D-Lord for absorbing some shots they just don't seem as survivable as they did in 5th.
Wraiths are good, but they are not invincible. You really have to play tactically with them. Before in 5E, I could just charge forwards with them because I had a lot of other dangerous threats in my MTO list to back them up. Now in this build, my "backup" units are all in reserves so I have to endure 1 or maybe even 2 turns of shooting from the opponent. And if he brings a shooty MSU army (like Christian's Grey Knights, Steven's Space Wolves or Amerikon's Battle Sisters), it can get downright ugly. The DLord helps, but against many of the shooty armies, he is usually reduced to 1W left and thus have to hide in the back!
So you really have to play them with some finesse. They are a sturdy unit, but without help to take some of the heat off, they will have a tough time against some of the more shooty armies.
hyv3mynd wrote:3 pieces of terrain per table at a GT? Sounds like false advertising to me. Nothing "grand" about that. It wouldn't have been enough for 5th's 25% and definitely not enough for 6th's 6d3 pieces.
Red Corsair wrote:I am getting a LOT of broken images, is any one else? Hope I can get it sorted out as I like seeing all the armies.
Hope you fared well my friend! Too bad about the terrain but your army is plenty strong any ways, between zoom mode and phase shifters you were probably less affected then most..... or I hope! Can't wait to hear the results in the coming days though I won't lame you for taking some time to rest. Those things are exhausting!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nm on the pics, working now, my comp must have been acting up lol.
To be fair, there were actually more than 3 pieces of terrain per table as the picture I took was before they completely finished putting up all the terrain. I admit that terrain was somewhat lacking. I also believe that in a tournament environment, you have to make do with the cards that both you and your opponent are dealt. When you build a balanced list, you have to take this into consideration - that terrain may not be favorable - and make sure you build some resiliency and redundancy into your army.
But yeah, necrons do have some resiliency that gives them a higher chance to survive enemy alpha-strikes. Terrain is less of a deal to them, but I still had to use whatever little terrain there was to maximum effect. Otherwise, even I wouldn't be able to survive the shooting of some of those armies out there.
SabrX wrote:Jy2, looks like we'll have to start doing 15% terrain in our future GT practice games. Shooty armies excel in that setting.
Man, I'm bringing IG with 3 demolishers and 3 vendettas!
sudojoe wrote:you guys put the aegis lines after the terrain or before?
After.
It's just a touch cheesy, but when you play in a tourney with fixed terrain, the Aegis line gets a big boost. Tournament games just don't have enough time to allow players to deploy terrain like the rules suggest, so if the TO allows fortifications, you have to fudge the rules and let the deploy on the board as-is.
Wrt the Aegis line, I think it fits with the character of the fortification. They're hastily constructed barriers, unlike the others (Bastion, Skyshield, Fortress). Still, being able to add 4+ cover and difficult terrain to the sparsely populated tables was a very nice buff for my army.
It's just a touch cheesy, but when you play in a tourney with fixed terrain, the Aegis line gets a big boost. Tournament games just don't have enough time to allow players to deploy terrain like the rules suggest, so if the TO allows fortifications, you have to fudge the rules and let the deploy on the board as-is.
Wrt the Aegis line, I think it fits with the character of the fortification. They're hastily constructed barriers, unlike the others (Bastion, Skyshield, Fortress). Still, being able to add 4+ cover and difficult terrain to the sparsely populated tables was a very nice buff for my army.
That part has actually been one of the main issues between practice and tourny, putting down fortifications where they are most useful is quite game changing. We've gotten into the habit of dropping LOS blocking thingies in front of eachother's AEGIS/bunkers etc and to purposefully mess up eachother's firing lines. Very big tactical part of the game now lol which starts at placing terrain but I suppose tournaments just wont have the time for it sadly.
infinityandbeyond wrote:Hope the tournament went well for you; looking forward to more reports!
Quick question re: the practice game you posted where your turn 2, your 3 fliers arrived, moved flat-out and shot in the same turn?
Is that even possible? Or am I misreading it?
It has changed in 6E. Now flyers can move 18" (combat speed) and fire everything, or they can move up to 36" (cruising) and still fire 4 guns at full BS! And if the night scythe doesn't fire, it can then flat-out in the Shooting phase another 36"! That's 72" it can move!!! Crazy, isn't it?
infinityandbeyond wrote:Hope the tournament went well for you; looking forward to more reports!
Quick question re: the practice game you posted where your turn 2, your 3 fliers arrived, moved flat-out and shot in the same turn?
Is that even possible? Or am I misreading it?
It has changed in 6E. Now flyers can move 18" (combat speed) and fire everything, or they can move up to 36" (cruising) and still fire 4 guns at full BS! And if the night scythe doesn't fire, it can then flat-out in the Shooting phase another 36"! That's 72" it can move!!! Crazy, isn't it?
Ah, so instead of flat-out meaning the extra move in the shooting phase, the fliers just moved up to 36" so they could then still shoot.
My confusion comes from:
Battle Report Necron T2 wrote:I get 2 doomscythes (the unpainted ones) and 1 night scythe in from reserves. They all move flat-out.
Later on that turn... wrote:Both doomscythes target the right boy squad and each of the death rays conveniently goes through 5 nob bikers
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Manticore
I didn't realize it then, but my opponent, Julian (aka Fuegan17 here on dakka), was actually ranked #6 on RankingsHQ.com and have had a string of successful tournaments recently. However, he doesn't have much experience with 6th Ed. and I don't believe he has played against flyers yet.
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: Julian's army has respectable anti-infantry fire. I need to watch out for that with my wraiths. I really don't want to eat psybolt fire and then eat it again as he overwatches when I charge. However, where he will be hurting is his anti-aircraft fire. Other than his dread and vendetta, he won't have anything to reliably take on my flyers. I think my flyers are in for a field day, though my wraiths are going to take a pounding. But my opponent's biggest problem will be his mobility. How is he going to get to the objectives where my wraiths will be? I am going to have Positional Dominance the entire game. Overall, as good as my opponent is, I think he's going to be a big underdog in this game.
Wraiths advance. However, instead of moving towards his army, I actually move away from it. My plan is to take full advantage of the central LOS-blocking terrain and bide my time until my flyers come in.
The other wraiths move towards the right, being careful to stay more than 24" away from his dangerous psychic powers and shooting. If he wants to shoot me, he's going to have to advance towards me.
Shooting by my Annihilation Barge (AB) only manages to take off 1 Hull Point from his chimera. I didn't want to fire on his rhino because he would be getting 4+ cover from the Aegis barrier and wasn't in range of his dread.
Grey Knights 1
Spoiler:
He doesn't move...much. Instead his dread successfully glances my AB 3 times and takes it down. Also, I forget about my 5+ Jink cover saves. Doh!!!
First Blood goes to the grey knights.
We both learn something new this game.
I learned that if a unit is completely under a multi-level ruins, then a barrage weapon cannot hit them as it would hit the upper-levels of the ruins first.
My opponent learns that he can't even fire his barrage weapon (manticore) at a unit more than 36" away (warriors in ruins) due to Night-fight. This was FAQ'd in this tournament.
He can't even fire at my Warlord's unit as it was 36"+ away, so he fires at my right wraith unit. Fortunately for me, it scatters way off.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
This turn, all 4 flyers come in from reserves. Actually, everything comes in from reserves.
Wraiths then pounce.
My scythes wreck both rhinos and 1 chimera. They also take off 1 Hull Point (HP) from the dread and kill some strikers from Coteaz's unit.
I also kill his manticore with a night scythe.
Wraiths then run.
Grey Knights 2
Spoiler:
Fortunately for Julian, his vendetta comes in.
Imperial forces advance, with the exception of the left strike squad. Primaris psyker breaks off from his guardsmen.
Heavy fire from psybolt strikers and triple-plasma vets put 2 Wounds on my Warlord and kill 1 wraith (I passed all the plasma and rending shots via Look Out Sir to the wraiths).
The other unit of wraiths take heavy casualties due to the psychic powers that gives Coteaz's unit re-roll's to hit and that forces my wraiths to re-roll successful saves. Only 1 wraith survives with 1W left.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
The scythes zip around. Wraiths get ready to assault.
I actually wipe out his entire strike squad with shooting alone!
I also wipe out Coteaz's unit and get Slay the Warlord.
I ignore his vendetta and dreadnought.
My lone wraith runs and hides behind the ruins. He is a sneaky git.
Wraiths then charge a new target - his veterans.
Overwatch doesn't do anything and my wraiths easily wipe them out.
Grey Knights 3
Spoiler:
Veterans make a heroic last stand. Thanks to the objective being Skyfire (we forgot to roll for Mysterious Objectives earlier), his vets shoot down my doomscythe.
Vendetta, which completely whiffed last turn, shoots down 1 wraith.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
One of my doomscythes which went into ongoing reserves last turn comes back in this turn hot on the heels of his vendetta.
I then shoot it down.
Let me show you how to assault an Overwatch unit.
First you need a sacrificial unit, which will be my sneaky lone wraith in this case. Then you charge with him first to force your opponent to overwatch him. Finally you charge with your main assault unit when he can't overwatch anymore.
The veteran's overwatch fails to even take out my lone wraith. My wraithstar unit then multi-charges the vets and chimera.
I kill all but 3 vets. My Warlord explodes his chimera. Surprisingly, he takes down 1 wraith and then passes Morale.
Grey Knights 4
Spoiler:
He goes for broke and charges both his dread and Primaris Psyker into combat.
I Mindshackle his Primaris, wipe out his squad and chops off an arm from his dread.
With that, my opponent concedes.
I've got 2 objectives, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker for 8 VP's. My opponent only has 1 VP for First Blood.
One thing your 1st opponent could have done is drive a chimera up 12" and snap fire at the wraiths. This would allow him to shine the searchlight on them and negate bathe effects of nightfighting for the rest of his army to shoot at that target.
I have been going back and forth about a Pulsetek for some time. It's great at helping to survive your opponents turn 1 alpha strike, however this snapshot trick is making the tactic not a sure thing.
infinityandbeyond wrote:Hope the tournament went well for you; looking forward to more reports!
Quick question re: the practice game you posted where your turn 2, your 3 fliers arrived, moved flat-out and shot in the same turn?
Is that even possible? Or am I misreading it?
It has changed in 6E. Now flyers can move 18" (combat speed) and fire everything, or they can move up to 36" (cruising) and still fire 4 guns at full BS! And if the night scythe doesn't fire, it can then flat-out in the Shooting phase another 36"! That's 72" it can move!!! Crazy, isn't it?
Ah, so instead of flat-out meaning the extra move in the shooting phase, the fliers just moved up to 36" so they could then still shoot.
My confusion comes from:
Battle Report Necron T2 wrote:I get 2 doomscythes (the unpainted ones) and 1 night scythe in from reserves. They all move flat-out.
Later on that turn... wrote:Both doomscythes target the right boy squad and each of the death rays conveniently goes through 5 nob bikers
Anyway, looking forward to more reports!
My bad. I didn't actually go flat-out. Just moved at cruising speed. I'll go back and change it. Thanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthDiggler wrote:One thing your 1st opponent could have done is drive a chimera up 12" and snap fire at the wraiths. This would allow him to shine the searchlight on them and negate bathe effects of nightfighting for the rest of his army to shoot at that target.
I have been going back and forth about a Pulsetek for some time. It's great at helping to survive your opponents turn 1 alpha strike, however this snapshot trick is making the tactic not a sure thing.
Interesting tactic. My opponent was new to this (6E, I mean) and I'm sure he was concerned about getting assaulted. Anyways, my opponent played a rather cautious game.
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Tried this, the 5th edition power build doesn't work anymore. With you troops needing to get out of their rides to control and contest, they need to be a lot more durable, and the amount of vehicles takes away from your ability to contest; Coteaz and those 18 Henchmen are the only things in the army you can contest with. Not a very good list at all.
though it is just an early list, it's not bad by any rights. it puts out a metric ton of high powered/twin-linked shots. Each having the chance at either being Rending (AP2) or Instant Death.
Oh wait, did I misread? When you said Psyback, you meant Assault Cannons? Ok, well that makes it a good bit better, as it actually has a serious damage output with consistent returns, I just wouldn't risk that many vehicles or such easily killable troop choices; it's basically in the hands of the dice from turn 1. But if it is an early draft then fair enough. Also, respect on the articulate reply, it seems so far most replies to such conversations are, 'roar, 5th edition lists rules, roar, nerd-rage.'
jy2 wrote:Let me show you how to assault an Overwatch unit.
First you need a sacrificial unit, which will be my sneaky lone wraith in this case. Then you charge with him first to force your opponent to overwatch him. Finally you charge with your main assault unit when he can't overwatch anymore.
Your opponent can hold his overwatch for the second unit, if he chooses. You can only overwatch once, but you do not have to overwatch.
I'm playing around with a pretty similar list at 2000. At higher points do you keep your troops as warriors to be thrifty or do you switch up to immortals?
jy2 wrote:Let me show you how to assault an Overwatch unit.
First you need a sacrificial unit, which will be my sneaky lone wraith in this case. Then you charge with him first to force your opponent to overwatch him. Finally you charge with your main assault unit when he can't overwatch anymore.
Your opponent can hold his overwatch for the second unit, if he chooses. You can only overwatch once, but you do not have to overwatch.
I thought you could not Overwatch when engaged. If you allow the first unit to engage you, then you can't Overwatch for the second unit correct?
jy2 wrote:Let me show you how to assault an Overwatch unit.
First you need a sacrificial unit, which will be my sneaky lone wraith in this case. Then you charge with him first to force your opponent to overwatch him. Finally you charge with your main assault unit when he can't overwatch anymore.
Your opponent can hold his overwatch for the second unit, if he chooses. You can only overwatch once, but you do not have to overwatch.
I thought you could not Overwatch when engaged. If you allow the first unit to engage you, then you can't Overwatch for the second unit correct?
Correct. If you don't overwatch the first unit, then he makes it into combat and you are now locked in combat. You can't overwatch when you are locked in combat.
morgendonner wrote:I'm playing around with a pretty similar list at 2000. At higher points do you keep your troops as warriors to be thrifty or do you switch up to immortals?
That really depends on how you would like to play it. My tendency is to go with "more threats" rather than resiliency of troops. Because with being embarked on night scythes and reserve tactics, your troops are actually very survivable.
At higher points, I'd probably add the following (assuming just 1 FOC slot), from highest priority to lowest.
Another Fast Attack option (probably more wraiths...they are just so versatile).
Another HQ option (Barge Overlord or Destroyer Lord)
Another Night Scythe
Crypteks
More troops or upgrade troops
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote:Engage doesn't happen until the fight sub-phase.
Let me go back and look it up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, after reviewing the BRB. You fully resolve 1 charge at a time. That means declare charge, target can choose to overwatch or not and then you charge that unit. Then you go on to the next charge declaration.
So if the target does not overwatch for first charging unit, then they cannot overwatch subsequent charges because they are already locked in combat. In the Fight sub-phase, you then resolve the actual fighting, however, the moment the target unit gets successfully charged, he is already locked in combat.
But just for the record, if I am wrong about this tactic, the overwatch fire from the veterans failed to cause any unsaved wounds in our battle.
Pg. 23 says "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat."
Pg. 21 says " ...units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch."
Pg. 20 under the assault phase summary "In the Charge sub-phase, you declare charges and your models move into close combat."
I take all that to mean the initial charger is the only one an Overwatch can be performed on and any subsequent charges are free from being shot at with Overwatch.
You fully resolve one charge at a time, but you don't lock until Fight Sub-Phase. From the Fight Sub-Phase:
"Who Can Fight?
Units that have one or more models in base contact with
enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in
combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise
move or shoot. At the start of each Initiative step, you must
work out whether or not a model locked in combat is also
engaged,as described below."
Locking does not occur until the 'Who can fight' part of the Fight Sub-Phase.
In comparison:
"Charge Sub-phase
It's time for your warriors to hurl themselves into close
combat and carry the day through bitter melee.
To resolve a charge, use the following procedure:
• First,pick one of your units, and declarewhich enemy
unit it wishes to charge.
• Then, the target enemy unit gets to make a specialkind of
Shootingattackcalled Overwatch (seeopposite).
• Once Overwatchis resolved, roll the charge distancefor
the unit and, if it is in range,moveit into contact with the
enemyunit - this is sometimes calledlaunching an assault'.
Once this has been done, you can either choose to declare a
chargewith another unit, or proceedto the Fightsub-phase."
Automatically Appended Next Post: If this was not true, there would be no reason for this disclaimer:
"Also note that aunitbeing
charged may only fire Overwatch once perturn."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Except for failed charges, of course.
"Who Can Fight?
Units that have one or more models in base contact with
enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in
combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise
move or shoot. At the start of each Initiative step, you must
work out whether or not a model locked in combat is also
engaged,as described below."
(Emphasis in bold red.)
Right, so as soon as a model is in base contact with an enemy model, then it is locked in combat. Doesn't matter that they wrote this in the Fight Sub-phase, it applies for the entire rules. My model is in base contact with your model in the Movement phase. Am I not locked in combat because right now this isn't the Fight Sub-phase?
The "disclaimer" is there in the case of a failed charge. Declare charge, overwatch and then failed charge. Next unit declares charge and now you cannot overwatch.
The amount of terrain on the table made me wince... I understand it's hard to get enough terrain together for that many tables; hard, but not impossible.
Did it have any bearing on your first tournament outing? I know for sure it would have depressed me very quickly. If you're paying money for going to the event then there aren't that many excuses for that sort of coverage.
The amount of terrain on the table made me wince... I understand it's hard to get enough terrain together for that many tables; hard, but not impossible.
Did it have any bearing on your first tournament outing? I know for sure it would have depressed me very quickly. If you're paying money for going to the event then there aren't that many excuses for that sort of coverage.
It didn't affect me as much because my army isn't reliant on cover like other armies. However, what I do rely on is LOS-blocking terrain so in the next few matches, you can expect to see a lot of wraiths bunching up all just to hide behind those terrains. Fortunately for me, I only faced 1 manticore all game (game #1) and it was Night-fight that game.
But I do feel bad for some of the other armies out there....
Strong start, jy2. I like your list a lot, it seems a lot more balanced than most Necron lists I've seen in 6th. Very eager to see the rest of your reports.
pretre wrote:I still disagree, but I'm not going to bog down your thread.
Thanks for the BR, btw! I look forward to the rest.
No worries.
And in this case, whether we went with whichever interpretation, it didn't really matter because his overwatch failed to do anything.
Fortunately, the judges there were great and what little issues there were in my games were resolved quickly and efficiently.
whigwam wrote:Strong start, jy2. I like your list a lot, it seems a lot more balanced than most Necron lists I've seen in 6th. Very eager to see the rest of your reports.
Thanks. That was what I was going for in this list....balance. Some assault (wraiths, Dlord) anchored by some good shooting (scythes, AB). You have to have shooting in your list. Otherwise you just cannot deal with other flyers or certain army builds.
A nice synergy between the Doomscythes who want units bunched up and the Wraiths who want units separated. Pick your poison as one will excel with your decision. The Destroyer Lord leading the Wraiths is genius. He increases their survivability (as they do to him) and can branch out on his own to increase their damage potential. The one weakness seems to be the small, vulnerable troops, but only very specific lists have the ability to ignore the Wraiths/Scythes and be mobile enough to get to the hidden warriors.
Jumping up in points a 2nd Destroyer Lord to lead the 2nd unit of Wraiths is a must. Then an Aegis Defense Line with a communication array to reroll all those reserve rolls to either get all your planes or keep some off the board for the mirror match would be next. Even a Bastion can house a unit of warriors and keep you from getting tabled. It will also provide you with LOS blocking terrain on a sparse board to hide Wraiths and the heavy bolters aren't to shabby and you can get a communication relay.
What scares Necrons? The psychic power terrify and weaken resolve used together to cause Wraiths to run off the board.
6x Immortals - Night Scythe (Warlord here)
6x Immortals - Night Scythe
5x Immortals
6x Wraiths - 3x Whip Coils
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Doom Scythe
Trent is a regular where we play at Game Kastle. He used to run blood angels back in 5th. I've played against his angels twice, once with my footcrons (battle report here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/427799.page ) and once with my daemons. He is more of a casual player and just started necrons at the end of 5th. And since he's been playing the crons, he's been having a string of successes recently. Now I will put him up to a true test. Can a novice necronite (my opponent) hold his own against a veteran in a battle of flyers? We shall see....
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: I think this is going to be a tough fight for my opponent. I've got the experience edge. I've got more flyers. I've also got more wraiths, though he does have 2 Overlords. But most importantly, I am going 2nd. However, I do need to beware of his 2 Overlords. If we were to get into a challenge situation, his Overlords would have the advantage over my Destroyer Lord due to their 3++ phase shifters (though I do have the Resurrection Orb). But my goal is to destroy everything else and ignore his Overlords for as long as possible. Let's see if he has an answer for my flyers after his gets shot down.
My opponent approaches very catiously when he finds out that his annihilation barges (AB) are out of range to fire.
Destroyercrons 1
Spoiler:
Here I surprise my opponent. I don't move my wraiths at all. Instead, I just move my AB back and behind terrain.
My plan here is to bait him towards me so that I can get the alpha strike with my doomscythes next turn.
Overcrons 2
Spoiler:
Trent gets his doomscythe and his night scythe (with Warlord) in from reserves. They move the maximum 36" in order to get a shot at my wraiths.
My opponent has just taken the bait.
Get a little bit closer, now don't be shy....
The rest of his army then advances aggressively.
No matter how he tries, his deathray can only hit 1 model on my wraithstar (wraiths with Dlord). I use my Warlord to Look Out Sir the deathray wound to one of my wraiths, who then saves successfully.
My Warlord then takes all the tesla shots from both his doomscythe and night scythe to only take 1W when all is said and done.
His wraiths then run and his vehicles move flat-out.
Destroyercrons 2
Spoiler:
All my reserves, with the exception of just 1 doomscythe, comes in from reserves.
Houston, we have liftoff....
My wraiths and AB then advance.
Under the protection of my flyers, I can now play my wraiths very aggressively.
My doomscythe blows up his doomscythe. The deathray also hits his other flyer, though fortunately for my opponent, I only manage to glance it.
My night scythes and AB only manage to take out 2 wraiths on the opposite side of the LOS-blocking terrain.
My wraithstar then tries to charge his wraiths or AB. I don't make it (they are about 7" away).
Overcrons 3
Spoiler:
His last night scythe comes in from resrves.
His other night scythe then moves 24+" and deposits his invincible Warlord and immortals in front of my vulnerable troops.
His wraiths and AB's advance. He is going in for the kill this turn.
Shooting by his AB's take off 1 Hull Point (HP) from my own AB.
His night scythe fires at my doomscythe and glance/pens it 7 times!
I then proceed to evade and make 5 jink cover saves!!! I then Living Metal off the damage results.
His immortals then try to shoot down my warriors but does so without success.
His wraiths then fail to make the charge against my wraiths, though his command barge does make it just fine.
Sweep Attack by his chariots doesn't faze my wraiths. Neither does his mindshackles. My wraiths opt to attack his command barge rather than against his Overlord. I then blow it up.
Destroyercrons 3
Spoiler:
My doomscythe comes in.
I move my wraithstar unit back to deal with his Warlord. 1 unit of warriors fall back while the other unit of warriors go to screen out his Overlord to limit his mobility.
My wraiths then ignore his Overlord and jump over his wraiths.
I think I kill his night scythe here, but not 100% sure.
Warriors then shoot down only 1 immortal.
Wraiths then assault.
He forgets to challenge my Warlord with his Warlord. That is fine by me. My wraiths wipe out his immortals.
He passes morale and then we pile in.
My wraiths assault his wraiths also.
We each kill 1 wraith. So it is now down to 3-vs-2.
Overcrons 4
Spoiler:
Things are not looking so good for Trent.
His shooting puts another 1 HP on my annihilation barge (1 HP left only).
His Overlord goes into combat to help out his wraiths. He isn't able to kill any of my wraiths.
In the other wraith melee, he does manage to kill 1 wraith, though in return, I take off 2W from his Warlord.
Destroyercrons 4
Spoiler:
I start going after his troops. My warriors disembark from my scythes.
I wipe out 1 entire unit of immortals with my scythes.
Make that 2 units of immortals gone.
Finally, in combat, he kills another wraith and I kill off his Warlord, who doesn't get back up.
I've got most of his Victory Points. He's only killed a total of 6 wraiths from my army (not even 1 VP because they were from both squads). I've also got all bonuses - Slay the Warlord, First Blood and Linebreaker.
Hey JY2, still reading the first report from the tournament but I just had to take a second to say how the terrain is so terrible. You have 10 percent or less coverage on your first board, was there any complaints about the terrain? I'll have more comments and questions I'm sure but wow... that is like planet putting green with a few aegis pieces on it... a shooting gallery.
EDIT: Great first report, reading number 2 now. Game 1 was brutal, Flyers are king it appears... especially at 1500.
EDIT: Game 2 Cron vs. Cron was good as well. Hopefully after 2 wins you have a closer game in number 3... :-)
Yea between the terrainless tables and bringing 4 fliers this is looking like a seal clubbing, no offense (I voted for your list btw and it is what I would have brought). There just isn't any real surprise in the strategy of waiting every game until your fliers arrive. Again , it's not your fault at all but a glaring weakness of the game mechanics one month out and a poorly run event (maybe too harsh, but the terrain really is one of the biggest factors). I mean some armies literally NEED terrain to function, yours is not one of them (neither was 2nd opponent really he just brought less fliers and went first allowing your fliers to counter his). Honestly seeing those tables I have no idea what certain armies are supposed to do against a flier spam army when they don't even get a decent save from AP- weapons? I hope you and all your opponents had fun at that event never the less, I mean all discussion aside that is the important thing. My personal opinion of naked tabled events has been said before, I'd demand my money back, tell them to take the extra table and use the terrain on the others lol.
DarthDiggler wrote:A nice synergy between the Doomscythes who want units bunched up and the Wraiths who want units separated. Pick your poison as one will excel with your decision. The Destroyer Lord leading the Wraiths is genius. He increases their survivability (as they do to him) and can branch out on his own to increase their damage potential. The one weakness seems to be the small, vulnerable troops, but only very specific lists have the ability to ignore the Wraiths/Scythes and be mobile enough to get to the hidden warriors.
Jumping up in points a 2nd Destroyer Lord to lead the 2nd unit of Wraiths is a must. Then an Aegis Defense Line with a communication array to reroll all those reserve rolls to either get all your planes or keep some off the board for the mirror match would be next. Even a Bastion can house a unit of warriors and keep you from getting tabled. It will also provide you with LOS blocking terrain on a sparse board to hide Wraiths and the heavy bolters aren't to shabby and you can get a communication relay.
What scares Necrons? The psychic power terrify and weaken resolve used together to cause Wraiths to run off the board.
Yeah, there is a certain chemistry between them. Also, I chose wraiths because they are quite durable. They can hold down the fort and not get tabled until your flyers come on in.
I must admit that after this tournament, I am really liking the Dlord. So much that I may consider a 2nd Dlord to lead my army at higher points games.
Yeah, warriors are a weakness. However, it is one that the opponents usually do not get to exploit fully. Haven't lost all my warriors in any of my games. They're just too preoccupied with shooting down wraiths and scythes.
At higher points, I just may have to consider the communication array and give it a try and perhaps bastion. That is what I am thinking about now.
I haven't really explored the possibilities of psychic powers yet, but if my opponent brings it, then so be it. Julian's army (game #1) had some scary psychic powers with Enfeeble, Prescience and the Re-roll successful saves power so I got a glimpse of how nasty they are. Too bad necrons can't bring in those anti-psychic space elf helpers.
BladeWalker wrote:Hey JY2, still reading the first report from the tournament but I just had to take a second to say how the terrain is so terrible. You have 10 percent or less coverage on your first board, was there any complaints about the terrain? I'll have more comments and questions I'm sure but wow... that is like planet putting green with a few aegis pieces on it... a shooting gallery.
EDIT: Great first report, reading number 2 now. Game 1 was brutal, Flyers are king it appears... especially at 1500.
EDIT: Game 2 Cron vs. Cron was good as well. Hopefully after 2 wins you have a closer game in number 3... :-)
Red Corsair wrote:Yea between the terrainless tables and bringing 4 fliers this is looking like a seal clubbing, no offense (I voted for your list btw). There just isn't any real mystery toward the strategy of waiting every game until your fliers arrive. Again , it's not your fault at all but a glaring weakness of the game mechanics one month out and a poorly run event. I mean some armies literally NEED terrain to function, yours is not one of them (neither was 2nd opponent really he just brought less fliers and went first). Honestly seeing those tables I have no idea what certain armies are supposed to do against a flier spam army when they don't even get a decent save from AP- weapons? I hope you and all your opponents had fun at that event never the less, I mean all discussion aside that is the important thing. My personal opinion of naked tabled events has been said before, I'd demand my money back, tell them to take the extra table and use the terrain on the others lol.
Thanks guys.
Yeah, many people were complaining about the terrain, especially certain armies. It didn't affect my army as much, but it did affect some players like Janthkin, whose tyranids are reliant on cover to survive. His very first game was against shooty Tau/Eldar on that type of terrain!
But one of the reasons for the terrain being as they are was because the TO's store got broken into about a week before the event. This "delayed" their plans to produce more terrain for the event and thus, they didn't finish building as much terrain as they would have liked.
I also found out that this was their very first endevour at running a GT. Usually for virgin tournaments, I think there will be little "kinks" that they will iron out for future events. Overall, besides the lack of terrain, the tournament was run quite well and most people had a rather enjoyable time.
Although I wasn't very fond of the terrain, my philosophy is that when you build your army, you have to take into consideration you may have games in tournaments which are rather terrain-lite. You need to be prepared for that (like, bring your own Aegis Defense Line and its 20" of cover ). Just like when you are running a MSU army, you need to prepare for the fact that you will have 1, maybe even 2 Kill Point games in a 6-8 game tourney. Basically, both you and your opponent have to be able to handle the cards that are dealt to you. Now I realize that this does produce some inequities as some armies are more reliant on cover and some less, but what choice do you have if you want to play? You can either play and complain later (or during) or you can leave, but after spending all that time preparing your army - all the moneys, the building and the painting - as well as the anticipation for some great gaming despite rather shoddy terrain, would you really want to? It's a tough call. I know I wouldn't be able to turn away from it after getting my hopes up so high for the first GT ever right in my own backyard and with so many skilled players there.
Yeah, flyers are strong for now and at this points level (though I don't know if I'd call them king just yet). This was like nidzilla at 1500 back when the 4th tyranid codex was out. Very few armies had the tools to deal with all those tyranid monstrous creatures at the lower points levels (1500 and less). However, as the games got bigger, people were then able to bring in my weapons ("guns") to deal with these monsters. The same exact analogy can be made with flyers in the new 6E. They are strong because at the lower points levels, most armies just don't have enough anti-flyer weaponry to deal with more than just 1-2 flyers.
Lack of terrain seems to be a pretty general issue for tournaments. Not just in terms of having it available, but also people skipping it, even though it's fairly important.
I agree with JY2, you have to take terrain into account when making your list and in 6th edition GW has given everyone the option of bringing their own terrain to each game. No excuses there.
As for the scenarios, I've read some complaining about the Kill Point scenario at the end and that it put the MSUGK list at a disadvantage. To that I say DUH! It is supposed to put that type of list at a disadvantage just as facing that MSUGK list would put most everyone else at a disadvantage in an objective game.
If you want to spam out six min sized squads in transports, then don't complain when the KP mission bites you in the bee hind. I've also noticed that the response to this is not to change the army, but to complain about the mission and advocate the removal of the one mission that hurts your army.
8x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino
7x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino
7x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino
7x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino
7x Grey Hunters - Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino
5x Long Fangs - 4x Missile Launchers
5x Long Fangs - 4x Missile Launchers
5x Long Fangs - 4x Missile Launchers
Onto game #3, where I meet Zero Comp team member, Steven, who is also 2-0 at this point. I thought he was the very first Zero Comp player I had played against, but it was actually my Game #1 opponent Julian, who wasn't wearing his team t-shirt today. I've never played against Steven before, but his space wolf list looks solid. I think this will be a tough fight.
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: I'm actually somewhat concerned this game. He's got a lot of resiliency in his troops. He's got respectable shooting, especially against my wraiths (thank goodness for my Dlord!). He's got 3 units of scoring long fangs as well for a total of 8 scoring units! But lastly, I am deathly afraid of his Rune Priest. Jaws will just do a number on my I2 crons, and Living Lightning is useful against my flyers. He's got a volume-of-fire/attacks with counter-attacking grey hunters and that's one of the major weaknesses of my wraiths. Finally, he's got the new and improved And They Shall Know No Fear. Ironically, Steven's army is the very first marine army I've ever faced in the new 6th Edition.
My main advantage is that I've got a scoring annihilation barge and 2 scoring doomscythes, though because the doomscythes are so high up, they won't be able to claim any objectives on the ground. Also, an interesting thing of note is that vehicles can be scoring but they are not denial units (according to the tournament's FAQ). Thus, say, if I have my AB and he has his grey hunters on the same objective, his grey hunters would get it as they would deny by vehicle but my vehicle can't deny his hunters.
Overall, I think Steven's army matches up actually quite well against mine.
Space Wolf deployment. His long fangs in the middle are claiming his objective.
Fortunately for me, Steven decides to use the psychic powers from the BRB (basic rulebook) as opposed to his own codex powers. He gets some powers that give him re-rolls.
I don't believe either of us gets any useful Warlord traits.
My deployment. I try to use the middle LOS-blocking terrain to limit his shooting as best as I could.
I also deploy 1 unit of foot warriors behind a LOS-blocking terrain in my deployment zone and claiming my objective.
So stupid of me to leave my AB out in the open. His long fangs glance it to death for First Blood. He also gets +1 VP because the AB is a Heavy Support choice.
His other long fangs only manage to take down 1 wraith.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
Take cover, space shrimps!
Space Wolves 2
Spoiler:
SW movement. He moves 1 unit of long fangs, meaning that they can still shoot this turn with their heavy weapons, but only in snapshot mode.
His long fangs can see one of my wraiths and shoot it down.
So far, my strategy of denial is working. Although I've lost my AB, after 2 rounds of 24 missile launcher fire, I've only lost 2 wraiths, which is acceptable to me.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
I only get 1 of my 2 doomscythes in....
....as well as 1 of my night scythes.
With my air support in, my wraiths go on the offensive.
The doom scythe shoots at his rhino. However, its deathray swipes the long fangs as well and kills all 4 missile launchers as well as explode the rhino.
My night scythe takes off 2 Hull Points (HP) as well as stun(?) his rhino. I opted not to shoot at his long fangs because I plan to assault them with my wraiths.
1 wraith dies to an overwatch krak missile as he is getting ready to charge.
They make the multi-charge. Counter-attack goes off for the long fangs.
I wreck the rhino and kill all but 2 long fangs.
Two things happen in my favor - 1) his long fangs don't break, thus keeping my wraiths in combat 1 more turn and 2) because of a quirk in the rules, his grey hunters who were just forced to disembark when my Warlord destroyed their ride, cannot assault next turn.
Overall, a great turn for me.
Space Wolves 3
Spoiler:
SW move to try to take out my doom scythe with meltas.
He puts 1W on my unengaged wraith unit (maybe from stormbolters?).
Then his entire army focuses on my doomscythe - all his meltas, combi-meltas and missile launchers - and he can't do a thing to it.
In assault, I finish off his long fangs for 1 VP (heavy support units count as VP's in this game).
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
This turn, I get the rest of my army in (except my doomscythe). My warriors would run for the middle objective.
Wraiths prepare for a multi-assault.
My doomscythe fires its deathray and kills 3 grey hunters. I believe I also immobilize his lead rhino.
Night scythe then unloads on his rhino and wrecks it.
My opponent decides to pile out right in front of my wraiths because if he had piled out on the other side of his transport, only 1 or 2 hunters would get to overwatch my wraiths when they charge as the other guys won't have LOS to them.
My wraithstar then multi-charges both his long fangs and his grey hunters. He pops his wolf standard. Overwatch fire doesn't do anything. 1 unit fails their counter-attack (I think it's his long fangs).
He kills 1 wraith and puts 1W on my Warlord. I kill off most of his hunters and long fangs.
His hunters do not break, thus keeping my wraithstar locked in combat for 1 more turn.
Finally, my unit of 3-wraiths charge his grey hunters with Rune Priest. Overwatch kills 1 of them and his hunters, who use their wolf standard, finishes off the other 2 in assault.
Space Wolves 4
Spoiler:
His Warlord breaks off from the hunters and goes to join the unit of 2 long fangs, who were in combat with my wraiths but broke off because they couldn't pile into combat (and my wraiths couldn't pile into them).
His hunters then go to help out against my Wraithstar.
His other troops advance slowly towards the middle objective while trying to shoot down my doomscythe with their melta....but without much luck.
Grey hunters charge into the pre-existing combat. He only manages to kill another 1 wraith and I kill some more grey hunters.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Last unit in reserves, my doomscythe, automatically comes in this turn. I aim straight for his grey hunters. My night scythe goes after his long fangs with his HQ on their objective.
My other doomscythe flies behind his long fangs + HQ.
The deathray and tesla destructors wipe out 4 grey hunters.
Between the 2 scythes, I wipe out his long fangs and his Warlord.
Grey hunters continue to get whittled down but they stay in combat.
Space Wolves 5
Spoiler:
One of his units of grey hunters make it to the middle objective.
His other unit of hunters moves back towards his own objective as it is now empty without his long fangs. They are short of the objective.
Finally, my wraithstar wipes out his hunters and consolidate.
He now has only 2 scoring units left, of which only one of them is claiming an objective at this point (the middle objective).
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
I split up my Warlord and my wraiths to go after his 2 troop choices. Warriors move towards the objective but they are slightly out.
Warriors disembark from their night scythe and goes to screen out his grey hunters just in case. My night scythe then flies off the board.
My doomscythe then flies behind his grey hunters and objective.
Its deathray kills 3-4 hunters.
My other night scythe goes to drop off my troops onto the middle objective.
Rapid-fire gauss and tesla kills a couple of hunters.
I then charge both units of hunters. I don't believe his overwatch fire does anything. My Warlord challenges his wolf guard.
I win each combat by 1 and both units of hunters stick around.
As there is no possible chance for a comeback for my opponent, he finally concedes.
Steven has First Blood and for killing 1 of my heavies, for a total of 2 VP's.
The middle objective is contested.
I've got 2 objectives - my own and the SW objective. I've also got Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker and +3 VP's for wiping out all 3 units of long fangs for 11 VP's.
Nothing went right for me on this mission as I believe JY2 not having to go first really killed me before things even started. My list had one less flyer and I really should have been putting my 5 immortals on the Night Scythe with the "invincible" overlord to wipe out those blasted Warriors!
Other than that, I made the newb mistake of aligning my flyers for his Doom Scythe line first turn. The dice gods amplified my poor tactics by blessing JY2 with incredible jinks all game and failed charges for me.
I think a rematch is in order at GK on this one as my list could have definately competed well with some better tactics and dice! Very enjoyable loss to a great general though, I couldn't have asked for a better learning opportunity.
i'm surprised it took x1 tournament for people to get their heads out of the sand in the early part of 6th ed and start stacking anti-air units. deathstars can ultimately be kited/ignored/fed/tanked, flyers innate ability to ignore 17% of the land based shooting, PLUS a 33% chance to shrug off any damage incurred to them means you have to bring something to fight it.
how much you say? well, if they are bringing 4, you need to shake/stun 3 per turn or you run the risk of playing their game. (JY2 you need a term for air superiority).
nice so far JY2, fortunate vs the necrons by getting second turn and showed that GW withholding flakk missile profiles from rocket launchers is the biggest LOLZsellmor3models ploy since the GK cheese fest near the end of 5th.
DarthDiggler wrote:I agree with JY2, you have to take terrain into account when making your list and in 6th edition GW has given everyone the option of bringing their own terrain to each game. No excuses there.
As for the scenarios, I've read some complaining about the Kill Point scenario at the end and that it put the MSUGK list at a disadvantage. To that I say DUH! It is supposed to put that type of list at a disadvantage just as facing that MSUGK list would put most everyone else at a disadvantage in an objective game.
If you want to spam out six min sized squads in transports, then don't complain when the KP mission bites you in the bee hind. I've also noticed that the response to this is not to change the army, but to complain about the mission and advocate the removal of the one mission that hurts your army.
I think it is just a natural tendency....human nature, if you will....to "comment" strongly on something you feel is not fair. But the problem isn't really in the missions/setup. After all, out of 8 missions, only 2 were KP's. Rather, it is in army choice. If you want to play a certain army build, you better understand that certain missions/deployment/enemy matchups/etc. is going to hurt you. Time to man up and bite the bullet. Because in the other 6 missions, you are just plain massacring your opponent with your army choice, which in this case is MSU.
Now I'm just talking in general terms, but don't bring a power build and complain when something doesn't go your way (besides dice). Because while you may have problems with 1 particular mission, everyone else is having problems against your army. Same goes with deathstar armies and a flyer armies (like mine) out there. Every build has its kryptonite. You just got to play through it to the best of your ability.
Stoffer wrote:Lack of terrain seems to be a pretty general issue for tournaments. Not just in terms of having it available, but also people skipping it, even though it's fairly important.
I found out that this was the first GT that they've ever run. I think the first time you try something on this scale, you are bound to make some mistakes. I am sure they will come back next year with a much improved terrain setup.
Ministry wrote:Nothing went right for me on this mission as I believe JY2 not having to go first really killed me before things even started. My list had one less flyer and I really should have been putting my 5 immortals on the Night Scythe with the "invincible" overlord to wipe out those blasted Warriors!
Other than that, I made the newb mistake of aligning my flyers for his Doom Scythe line first turn. The dice gods amplified my poor tactics by blessing JY2 with incredible jinks all game and failed charges for me.
I think a rematch is in order at GK on this one as my list could have definately competed well with some better tactics and dice! Very enjoyable loss to a great general though, I couldn't have asked for a better learning opportunity.
Sure buddy. Just give me a PM.
Yeah, sometimes the best lessons are learned when you are at the receiving end. Then after a few such games, perhaps you'd be the one doling out such "lessons". Lol.
Sourmilk wrote:Really enjoy the reports jy2. Thanks ! Hopefully this result will make you go to more tournements, and more reports for us.
Thanks. I do go to the smaller local tournaments once in a while. It's just hard for me to do longer tourneys such as GT's because I normally work on the weekends and have family as well.
However, I do plan to go to the Bay Area Open GT next year.
Skelly wrote:
Sourmilk wrote:Really enjoy the reports jy2. Thanks ! Hopefully this result will make you go to more tournements, and more reports for us.
Thank you as well jy2! So far so good, hope you keep winning, can't wait to see the final results.
I also sent you a PM, if you get the time could you give it a look?
Thanks, and done!
Nob bikers are good. I am also considering teaming up necrons and orks.
MarkyMark wrote: Death ray is pretty mean! and the flyers are proving to be quite resilient
Thanks for the bat reps very interesting read
Couldn't agree more. After this tournament, I'm beginning to think that the doomscythe is one of the best heavy supports in the entire game!
Please don't ever run more than 2 in a non-tournament event. Your opponents will probably never want to play against your crons again!
Painnen wrote:i'm surprised it took x1 tournament for people to get their heads out of the sand in the early part of 6th ed and start stacking anti-air units. deathstars can ultimately be kited/ignored/fed/tanked, flyers innate ability to ignore 17% of the land based shooting, PLUS a 33% chance to shrug off any damage incurred to them means you have to bring something to fight it.
how much you say? well, if they are bringing 4, you need to shake/stun 3 per turn or you run the risk of playing their game. (JY2 you need a term for air superiority).
nice so far JY2, fortunate vs the necrons by getting second turn and showed that GW withholding flakk missile profiles from rocket launchers is the biggest LOLZsellmor3models ploy since the GK cheese fest near the end of 5th.
To be fair, not everyone there are hardcore gamers who always keep up to date with the latest and greatest on the net. I'd say that most of the normal tournament goers currently are basically still bringing their 5E lists to see how they would fare in 6E. You will see this change in time, but for now, I think you will see a lot of people get owned because they haven' realized that the competitive meta has changed.
I think that eventually, they would adjust.
I really don't know when or who would get the flakk missiles....but I'm glad the Space Wolves didn't get them just yet.
Solid three games, Jy2. It seems TLOS blocking terrain in the middle is essential for your army to work. Weather out turn 1 shooting and go on the offense with Necron Flyers on turn 2. It would be interesting to see a game where you don't have that mid-piece of terrain to hide behind in the face of a very shooty army.
Destroyer Lord makes the Wraiths extremely more powerful. Good decision switching regular Overlord for Destroyer.
SabrX wrote: It seems TLOS blocking terrain in the middle is essential for your army to work. Weather out turn 1 shooting and go on the offense with Necron Flyers on turn 2. It would be interesting to see a game where you don't have that mid-piece of terrain to hide behind in the face of a very shooty army.
Great observation! Lends some credence to players placing their own terrain before a game for sure. (as I would sacrifice placing ruins in my own deployment zone in favor of carpet bombing the midfield with tank traps, razorwire, or a pond denying the Wraiths the shielded turn or two) I think it's alittle more than coincidence that JY2 uses that central piece of LOS blocking terrain to his advantage WHILE making his list! What I mean is this, TOs, you have become predictable with your terrain. Giving everyone a pond, a forest, and a ruin in their deployment zone while tossing a big area LOS terrain in the middle is something for everyone to bank on right now. Stop doing this...
SabrX wrote:Solid three games, Jy2. It seems TLOS blocking terrain in the middle is essential for your army to work. Weather out turn 1 shooting and go on the offense with Necron Flyers on turn 2. It would be interesting to see a game where you don't have that mid-piece of terrain to hide behind in the face of a very shooty army.
Destroyer Lord makes the Wraiths extremely more powerful. Good decision switching regular Overlord for Destroyer.
Good battle reports, thanks for sharing!
Painnen wrote:
SabrX wrote: It seems TLOS blocking terrain in the middle is essential for your army to work. Weather out turn 1 shooting and go on the offense with Necron Flyers on turn 2. It would be interesting to see a game where you don't have that mid-piece of terrain to hide behind in the face of a very shooty army.
Great observation! Lends some credence to players placing their own terrain before a game for sure. (as I would sacrifice placing ruins in my own deployment zone in favor of carpet bombing the midfield with tank traps, razorwire, or a pond denying the Wraiths the shielded turn or two) I think it's alittle more than coincidence that JY2 uses that central piece of LOS blocking terrain to his advantage WHILE making his list! What I mean is this, TOs, you have become predictable with your terrain. Giving everyone a pond, a forest, and a ruin in their deployment zone while tossing a big area LOS terrain in the middle is something for everyone to bank on right now. Stop doing this...
Yeah, I did take advantage of the fact that most tournaments nowadays will usually have some type of terrain in the middle. Otherwise, it just becomes a turkey-shoot for MSU and gunline armies. However, usually the middle terrain, if it blocks LOS, isn't very big in this tournament.
I did play against a shooty army - Christian's MSUGK's - in both a table with LOS-blocking and non-LOS-blocking terrain in the middle (played him twice). You just have to adapt to what's there on the board.
Shooty armies will need to adjust to this and build their lists with some mobile firepower. Deploy your shooters on the flanks so that no matter where the opponent hides, you can almost always shoot at something. And certain armies like DE should have no problem getting around the terrain to shoot them down.
The Dlord certainly was useful in this game. And I am glad I made the last-minute switch to give him the ResOrb. That prevented my opponent from getting Slay the Warlord in a couple of games.
Exorcist
10x Retributors - 4x Heavy Bolters
10x Retributors - 4x Heavy Bolters
Aegis Defense Line - Quad-Guns
I've played Sam several times before. He is another local at Game Kastle, our LGS, and he is very good with his Sisters. Honestly, I haven't beaten his Sisters yet. I first played him quite a while ago with my tyranids (just when their 5th Ed. codex came out). I thought I would eat his sisters for lunch but he managed a draw in that game. More recently, near the end of 5th, I played his new Sisters (after their new codex from WD just came out) with both my Paladins and Purifiers (battle report here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/434899.page ). My paladins lost pretty badly and he managed to tie my Purifiers even though I was dominating his army initially. This will be our 4th match and for some reason, Sam's Celestine-led unconventional Sisters army always seem to do well against me. Could his streak continue? We shall see....
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: The fact that our Fast Attacks count as scoring in this mission changes things. Initially, I thought I had a major advantage when I learned that he only had 2 troop choices. I then find out that he has 5 Fast Attacks - 3 units and 2 dedicated transports - for a total of 7 scoring units! On the other hand, I've got the much more durable wraiths who are now scoring. This could work to my advantage as his Fast Attacks are much more fragile than mine. So my goal has just become to kill all his Fast Attacks. That ways, I kill 2 birds with 1 stone....I get rid of his scoring units and I get VP's for doing so as well.
Honestly, I didn't really want to face Sam's army, at least not so early. His mid-range firepower is scary-nasty due to both volume-of-fire and Acts of Faiths which can give him re-rolls, and that includes his Overwatch. Now that is a recipe for disaster for my wraiths. Also, while his anti-aircraft firepower is not the best, it is still better than most in this game. That's because he's got the volume-of-fire that could hurt me. Quad-guns, rending heavy bolters, twin-linked meltas....he's got a lot of shooting. I think he should be able to consistently down perhaps 1 flyer a turn, maybe more if the dice goes his way. I honestly believe his army could make it to the Final Four, especially after he beat Reece's orks. That's how much I respect his army and his generalship.
But now that I'm facing his Sisters, I'm going to relish this game. I think it's going to be a good one.
I place my objectives (the turtles). Sam places his objectives (the poker chips). Two of his objectives are behind his Aegis Defense Line.
He then deploys his Sisters, leaving the 2 dominions in reserves to Outflank.
I deploy in a refused flank formation, trying to use as much of the middle terrain as possible to deny as much of his shooting as possible. This way, his exorcist couldn't shoot at anything, 1 of his unit of retributors is out of range and his quad-gun only has my AV13 Annihilation Barge for a target.
We then roll to see how many points each objective is worth. Fortune smiles at my crons as I get the 4-pt, 3-pt and 2-pt objectives. That means my opponent gets the 3-pt, 2-pt and 1-pt objectives and his troops are currently claiming only the 2-pt and 1-pt objectives.
Not much movement. Celestine and seraphims advance. His exorcist also scoots to the left (from my perspective) so that he can possibly shoot something next turn.
Shooting from the retributors that were in range put 1W on my wraiths only.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
My army advances. I make a mistake and move my AB 12". Should have just moved it 6" so that it didn't have to fire in Snapshot mode.
AB then fires at his quad-gun. I believe I do 1W of damage to it and then arc onto his battle sisters to kill 2.
Now I know that my opponent is trying to bait my wraiths with Celestine and her squad, but the temptation is just to great to resist. I have to go for it. I declare a charge on them. Overwatch only manages to put 1W on my Warlord. I then fail my charge, needing I believe 7" but not getting it.
It is at this point where I let out a major Doh!!!
Sisters of Battle 2
Spoiler:
1 unit of dominions come in on the side of my 4-pt objective.
Seraphims then jump forwards.
Gulp. This is going to hurt.
And it is a painful experience indeed. Seraphims use the Faith to re-roll 1's to wound, I believe, and their shooting wipes out 4 wraiths, puts 1W on the last wraith and reduces my Warlord to just 1W left!!!
On top of that his exorcist blows up my annihilation barge for First Blood.
Wow, this fight is going to be every bit as tough as I thought it would be. What's more, the damage he's done this turn could be game-changing. Honestly at this point, I am not sure if I can recover.
Seraphims and Celestine then charges my Warlord and lone surviving wraith.
He challenges my Dlord with his Sister Superior. I accept. She can't hurt me and I manage to wound her only once. She then makes her 6++ save.
At least they can't attack the wraith because he is so far away. We then both pile into combat.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
I get 3 flyers in. 2 night scythes and 1 doomscythe. Doomscythe goes after the dominions. Remember that they (the dominions) and their transport are each worth 1 VP in this mission.
At the end of my Movement, he fires his quad-fun at my doomscythe. Fortunately for me, he rolls poorly and fails to even glance it at all.
I also get 1 unit of foot warriors walking in.
As expected, my doomscythe takes out the immolator. 1 sister dies in the explosion and the entire unit gets pinned.
My night scythe then takes out his quad-gun. I think my other scythe only manages to kill the Sister Superior from his retributor squad.
My other unit of wraiths go to help out my Warlord.
The sisters (or rather, Celestine) manages to kill 2 wraiths. I kill several sisters, including the sister superior locked in the challenge with my Warlord.
My opponent then decides he no longer wants to stayed locked in combat with my wraithstar, and so Hit-&-run out of combat with his seraphims.
Sisters of Battle 3
Spoiler:
His other unit of dominions come in from reserves on the same side as his first squad of dominions. This time, they disembark.
Celestine prepares to take out my troop unit.
Shooting takes out another 1 wraith....because 1 wraith is all that they can see.
He doesn't even need to assault my warriors. Shooting wipes them out!
The rest of his shooting fails to even hit any of my flyers.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Seems like I have a little breathing room now. Other than wiping out 1 of my scoring units last turn, he didn't really do any damage.
I then set my night scythes onto Celestine's unit. My other foot warriors walk in from reserves.
Wraith and Dlord goes after Celestine and seraphims.
The doomscythe goes after his other dominions.
I blow his transport up. The deathray also sweeps and kills 3 sisters.
Woohoo! Another VP....mine!
Night scythes do a great job and kill 5 seraphims....
....so my warriors shoot at his dominions instead. They kill 1 dominion....
....who then fail morale and fall back.
My HQ then charges his HQ. Overwatch is a waste and doesn't do anything.
Celestine kills my Dlord!
My wraith then kills his last seraphim. Another VP for my crons.
And to my opponent's horror, Celestine finds out that she is fighting her doppleganger as my Warlord gets right back up.
Sisters of Battle 4
Spoiler:
Dominions continue falling back. The other dominions move towards the doomscythe.
Exorcist tries to take out my other unit of troops, but only manages to drop 2, of which 1 would get back up later.
Retributors are out of range to shoot down my troops, so they fire at a night scythe instead. I believe Sam fails his Faith test for Divine Guidance (rending), but they still manage to take 1 Hull Point off of it.
I believe the dominions manage to hit my doom scythe once but only glance it with their melta.
Battle sisters then run towards the 3-pt objective. Notice my lone wraith hiding behind the LOS-blocking terrain? I admit....I am evil. Muahahahahaha....
Finally, in assault, my Dlord successfully mindshackles Celestine and then cleaves her in two with his warscythe. They then consolidate onto the 3-pt objective.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
My last doomscythe comes in from reserves and go after his dominions. My other doomscythe goes after his battle sisters heading towards the objective.
Warriors spread out.
The doomscythe wipes out the unit of dominions.
The combination of my doomscythe and nightscythe then wipes out all but 1 battle sister.
Sisters of Battle 5
Spoiler:
For some reason, I totally forget to take pictures this turn.
Celestine fails to get back up.
His lone battle sister goes to claim the 3-pt objective.
His shooting didn't really do much of anything.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
My wraith, who has been hiding behind terrain for a couple of turns now, finally makes his move. As backup, the night scythe prepares to shoot down the battle sister as well.
Warriors spread out slightly.
Doom scythe goes after his exorcist.
Rapid-fire by my warriors kill 1 of the 2 dominions.
She then fails morale and huffs it.
And finally, my wraith charges his lone sister and easily finishes her off to claim the 3-pt objective.
My opponent only has 1 objective, a 2-pt one. He didn't completely kill my Fast Attacks. He's also got First Blood for a total of 3 VP's.
I've got 2 3-pt objectives and the 4-pt objective. I've slain his Warlord, and I've also got my lone wraith in his deployment zone for Linbreaker. Finally I've killed all 5 of his Fast Attacks for a grand total of 17 VP's.
I have to disagree that terrain should be considered when building a list. By that I mean, by all means account for varied terrain but 15% total board coverage should not need to be factored in because simply put, the game mechanics stop working t this level. I understand you feel like all things should be weighed in but lets be honest, you hit pay dirt at that tournament. Wraiths brings their own cover save and fliers don't need cover, in fact, they excel on a naked board. Fliers also don't have a hard counter currently, making them the number one factor until they release the phantom flak missile later to polarize sales to whatever hellish army gets those things lol.
I think it is worth stating that it is their first event but again, this is no excuse. They should have had a much lower limit. I run a restaurant, I can't continue to take reservations for a certain time once my capacity is reached then simply "join" parties to save space. Its responsibility, and TO need to use it when they host events. I have been to countless first time events with great turn out and amazing tables, really there are no excuses. Again all I can say is that I hope the majority of players were happy but from the sound of it that's not the case.
I apologize for ranting but I really do think it's ridiculous to state players should account for 15% coverage. The rules tell us that's not enough, we build armies using the rules.
Your round #3 opponent made a lot of mistakes. I think it has a lot to do with the newness of 6th edition.
He should have been outside the rhinos and bubble wrapping his long fangs with the grey hunters. That means that he can fight the wraiths while the long fangs keep shooting at your flyers.
jy2 wrote:His shooting didn't really do much of anything.
Ain't that the truth. Curse you and your Necron flyers!!!
BTW, I totally called it that your version of the batrep would be better than mine. Your pictures alone are way better. What kind of camera do you use?
Ricter wrote:How did your doomscythe get such an extreme angle in turn 2?
It looks like it came in at an angle hugging Jy2's board edge. Easy enough to pull off even without using your 90 degree turn.
Doesn't the model have to be completely off the board going back 36"?
The flyer will have to start off the board edge, but I believe it can move anywhere from 18" to 36" when zooming. Anyway, it would look like this in practice:
Red line being the Scythe's movement. Hope that answers your question?
pretre wrote:Ouch, nasty. The sisters took a beating.
Yeah it was brutal. I needed lucky dice to take out those flyers, but I had to make due with average dice. With so much of my army being static he was able to use the zippiness of flyers to just focus on just my Scoring units and pick me apart. I think we all saw that he did it masterfully.
I'm trying to think of things that I could have done better. I think I should have split Celestine off by herself to kill the Warriors and then let the Seraphim try to kill the Wraiths. Outlanking my Dominions may have been a mistake as well. By having them split up I probably made it easier to kill them and harder for them to shoot the flyers since their shots were split instead of focused.
Even all of that may not have been enough. Jy2 still had two of his Warrior squads in reserves at the end of the game!
Focusing on the wraiths until they were all dead would have been a better move, I agree. The outflanking Dominions were fine, especially in this scenario as you needed threats to his objectives. I imagine that when you see that central piece of LOS blocking terrain that it is wise to spread out the heavy Bolter sisters to criss cross the spot behind the terrain where the Wraiths hide.
Everything else is fine. Mass Necron Flyers are just real tough right now and JY2's list does a good job of exploiting them with the Wraiths combined with the flyers.
Red Corsair wrote:I have to disagree that terrain should be considered when building a list. By that I mean, by all means account for varied terrain but 15% total board coverage should not need to be factored in because simply put, the game mechanics stop working t this level. I understand you feel like all things should be weighed in but lets be honest, you hit pay dirt at that tournament. Wraiths brings their own cover save and fliers don't need cover, in fact, they excel on a naked board. Fliers also don't have a hard counter currently, making them the number one factor until they release the phantom flak missile later to polarize sales to whatever hellish army gets those things lol.
I think it is worth stating that it is their first event but again, this is no excuse. They should have had a much lower limit. I run a restaurant, I can't continue to take reservations for a certain time once my capacity is reached then simply "join" parties to save space. Its responsibility, and TO need to use it when they host events. I have been to countless first time events with great turn out and amazing tables, really there are no excuses. Again all I can say is that I hope the majority of players were happy but from the sound of it that's not the case.
I apologize for ranting but I really do think it's ridiculous to state players should account for 15% coverage. The rules tell us that's not enough, we build armies using the rules.
I'm not saying that the terrain was good in the tournament. I actually felt bad for some of the armies that may rely a little more heavily on terrain than mine. I myself would prefer the right amount of terrain as I believe in fairness in gaming (these tables gave more advantage to the more shooty armies). However, the reality of it is that sometimes, and this is especially true in first-time events, terrain just may not be enough. That is what you have to consider when building your list. You have to consider both its offensive capabilities as well as its defensive capabilities. That is exactly what some of the people in this tournament, including Sam the Sisters player, did. They bucked the meta by bringing a primarily foot list and then he brought his own cover (Aegis) as well as some anti-air fire (quad-guns). Same with a few other marine players I saw in this tournament including another fellow Game Kastle player who brought an all-infantry Space Marine army with the Aegis defense line + quad guns. As a matter of fact, a lot of the Imperial armies brought the Aegis, which I thought was a great idea.
Now one can complain about terrain all he wants and one can also leave the tournament and demand for money-back, but the fact is that you are relying on an external source - something that is out of your control - for your army to function properly. This is a risky strategy because under normal circumstances, things may be ok (i.e. there is adequate terrain), however, under extenuating circumstances, what you didn't factor in when you built your list can come back to haunt you (i.e. I am relying on LOS-blocking terrain but there is none there, etc.). And if your list did not take this into account, then you need to compensate for it with your "Plan B" (which in most cases would be altered tactics). Because when the tables are set, the TO's aren't going to be adding new terrain or shifting terrain around in most cases.
Anyways, for the most part, people played through the terrain-lite tourney without too much complaints. I think most people adjusted. Even dark eldar, tyranids and orks. Believe it or not, both tyranids (5 players) and orks (2 players) average 2 of the highest placings in the tournament. They both placed 16th on average. Another army you would think really got hurt by the terrain was Dark Eldar (4 players), and yet their average placing was 15! And the other "power" armies? Necrons (5 players, 27th), grey knights (7 players, 31st), space wolves (6 players, 30th) and IG (4 players, 36th)!!! So the armies that arguably rely on terrain the most had a better showing at the end of the day. That says to me that people can overcome their "perceived handicap" (i.e. reliance on terrain) with resiliency (created on the list-building phase) and by re-adjusting to the situation.
It isn't all that bad.
Blackmoor wrote:Your round #3 opponent made a lot of mistakes. I think it has a lot to do with the newness of 6th edition.
He should have been outside the rhinos and bubble wrapping his long fangs with the grey hunters. That means that he can fight the wraiths while the long fangs keep shooting at your flyers.
Yeah, he did. I felt that he was a little more reactive than proactive. I think some people haven't fully acclimated to 6E tactics yet. They are still fighting in 5E mode.
But in all fairness, he's probably not played the likes of my wraith-scythe army before. Actually, not many has yet.
Amerikon wrote:
jy2 wrote:His shooting didn't really do much of anything.
Ain't that the truth. Curse you and your Necron flyers!!!
BTW, I totally called it that your version of the batrep would be better than mine. Your pictures alone are way better. What kind of camera do you use?
I use the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5. It's a really good camera for its price.
BTW, what photo-hosting site did you use for your pictures? They load rather slowly and takes up a lot of the computer resources. I couldn't even really read your battle reports on my older work computer.
I recommend Photobucket to host your photos. That is what I am using for all my batreps.
pretre wrote:Ouch, nasty. The sisters took a beating.
Yeah, I was quite surprised at the results myself.
Part of it probably stems from my opponent's inability in this game to take down my scythes though (he might have shot 1 down, can't quite remember).
whigwam wrote:
Ricter wrote:
whigwam wrote:
Ricter wrote:How did your doomscythe get such an extreme angle in turn 2?
It looks like it came in at an angle hugging Jy2's board edge. Easy enough to pull off even without using your 90 degree turn.
Doesn't the model have to be completely off the board going back 36"?
The flyer will have to start off the board edge, but I believe it can move anywhere from 18" to 36" when zooming. Anyway, it would look like this in practice:
Red line being the Scythe's movement. Hope that answers your question?
Nice reply, better than any words could say. The sad-face sister especially made me laugh. Lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amerikon wrote:
pretre wrote:Ouch, nasty. The sisters took a beating.
Yeah it was brutal. I needed lucky dice to take out those flyers, but I had to make due with average dice. With so much of my army being static he was able to use the zippiness of flyers to just focus on just my Scoring units and pick me apart. I think we all saw that he did it masterfully.
I'm trying to think of things that I could have done better. I think I should have split Celestine off by herself to kill the Warriors and then let the Seraphim try to kill the Wraiths. Outlanking my Dominions may have been a mistake as well. By having them split up I probably made it easier to kill them and harder for them to shoot the flyers since their shots were split instead of focused.
Even all of that may not have been enough. Jy2 still had two of his Warrior squads in reserves at the end of the game!
Don't worry, you'll get the chance to face my crons again at GK. Just PM me if you want to play and you can try your "new" tactics (or maybe even a "new" list).
DarthDiggler wrote:Focusing on the wraiths until they were all dead would have been a better move, I agree. The outflanking Dominions were fine, especially in this scenario as you needed threats to his objectives. I imagine that when you see that central piece of LOS blocking terrain that it is wise to spread out the heavy Bolter sisters to criss cross the spot behind the terrain where the Wraiths hide.
Everything else is fine. Mass Necron Flyers are just real tough right now and JY2's list does a good job of exploiting them with the Wraiths combined with the flyers.
Yeah, that was quite do-able as I was down to 1 wraith on 1 unit and 2-3 on the other. However, the danger isn't with the wraiths. Rather, it was with my flyers next turn, especially if he had wiped out the lone wraith with shooting.
But then again, that was exactly what happened after he wiped out my 5-man warrior unit. Those sisters just ate a bunch of tesla.
I agree that splitting up Celestine from the seraphims might have been a wise choice.
jy2 wrote:BTW, what photo-hosting site did you use for your pictures? They load rather slowly and takes up a lot of the computer resources. I couldn't even really read your battle reports on my older work computer.
I host them right here on Dakka. I can try to shift them to somewhere else. A lot of the problem might stem from the fact that I've got 4 full games on a single page. Now that the thread has rolled over to a second page the new games may load faster.
Of course the Dakkites can help by posting more in my thread!
pretre wrote:Yeah, your pictures load slower than any other dakka pictures I have seen. I've been trying to figure it out. Maybe have to post in nuts and bolts.
That's weird. I just did a hard refresh on my forum post and it took about 4 seconds for the whole thing to load. I'm going to put up Game 5 since that will be on its own page. If a single report's not too slow then I'll try to do something about it. I might just gut that thread and make a new one for each game. If it's still super slow, just by itself I really don't know what to do.
whigwam wrote:The flyer will have to start off the board edge, but I believe it can move anywhere from 18" to 36" when zooming. Anyway, it would look like this in practice:
Red line being the Scythe's movement. Hope that answers your question?
Right, so I phrased that rather poorly. The flier can, at most, move 36". Since the entire model has to start off the board edge, that means if you move it straight backwards 36", the entire model would be off the board. I guess, to me, it looks like the flier is parallel (or nearly) with the long board edge. It could just be the angle, but it doesn't seem like the flier would be off the board if moved backwards up to 36". In the end it wouldn't have effected the game either way, I just want to make sure I hadn't missed anything.
jy2 wrote:Yeah, he did. I felt that he was a little more reactive than proactive. I think some people haven't fully acclimated to 6E tactics yet. They are still fighting in 5E mode.
Tell me about it. I've been saying this for awhile now, but its also like some people don't want to adapt.
Good show so far. Looking forward to the rest. Glad to see a test run showing flyers for what they are as well. I've been loving double Ravens as much as you are loving your Scythes.
It is now Day 2 of the tournament. There are 3 players so far who are 4-0 and 1 player who is 3-0-1. I am the currently the 1st ranked player due to my strength of schedule and I think that usually in swiss pairings, the 1st seed plays 4th while 2nd plays 3rd (I think that's how it normally goes).
So here I get matched up against Dan and his Biker Space Marines, who is the 3-0-1 player. In the other top pairings, Christian (#2) and his MSU Grey Knights gets paired up against Sirus' (#3) mechanized Blood Angel Lamentors.
1500 Necrons
I used a slightly tweaked version of my list #3.
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Resurrection Orb, Weave - 190
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
Dan is a really cool guy and has his own blog http://www.thepreferredenemy.com I've seen him around at tournaments but never actually played against him before. But he is used to playing competitively as he plays against both Reece and Frankie on a regular basis. As a matter of fact, he bought his biker army off of Frankie. Anyways, he's never played against necron flyers before until this tournament, where earlier he beat a necron player with 2 doom scythes. But I think he's going to have a much tougher time against my crons.
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: I think this is going to be a rough match-up for Dan. He drew the one army he didn't want to play against - my wraith-scythe necrons - and it is with good reason. My guys don't care about all his plasmas, he doesn't have much in the way of anti-aircraft fire and my wraiths will beat his bikers in combat. On top of that, I get the Warlord trait that gives me +1 VP for every character my Warlord beats in a challenge.
I, on the other hand, don't see it so one-sided. Sure he may have problems taking down my scythes, but biker armies have gotten a huge boost in this edition. They are actually really good now. And the farseer ally makes a good addition to his army. Doom can definitely be really nasty if he focus-fires his bikes. As a matter of fact, he can probably wipe out 1 entire unit if it is doomed and his bikes are in rapid-fire range, but that will depend if he wants to take a risk and play aggressively. But most importantly, Combat Tactics and And They Shall Know No Fear is just really good right now. Those are 2 traits that can screw over the opponent if he is not careful. Move up and fire everything at full force. Let you charge, lose combat and then fall back only to blast your army once again.
Unbeknownst to my opponent, I am going to play just as conservatively as I think he is going to play. I am going to keep away from his firepower, use terrain to try to deny some of it and just bide my time until my actual firepower in the form of the scythes come in. I think my tactics are going to surprise him. They have so far against all my opponents.
Bikers move up to just 24" away from my wraiths. One thing that makes bike armies so cool is that you can premeasure now. So you can place the bikes exactly where they need to be.
My opponent does make a mistake though. When shooting, he was actually measuring from the gun itself, thus depriving him of a little range. I told him that when an infantry model shoots, you actually measure from its base and not from where the gun actually is.
His farseer is too far to cast Doom.
We then go on to shooting, where he puts 1W on my Warlord and takes down 1 wraith from my other wraith squad (without the Warlord).
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
Here is where I surprise my opponent. Instead of advancing as he was probably expecting, I only advance my left wraiths. I then move my wraithstar laterally to the left instead. I am trying to draw him in closer to me so that my doomscythes will have some sweet targets next turn.
Shooting by my annihilation barge only puts 1W on his unit of attack bikes. BTW, the units facing the opposite direction from the rest of his army is used to differentiate between the different squads.
Wraiths then run. Left wraiths try to get behind the ruins for some protection from the shooting to come.
Biker Marines 2
Spoiler:
Bikers advance again.
His farseer successfully dooms my left wraiths. His bikers then shoot down 2.
The rest of his army focuses on my AB to try to get First Blood but he doesn't do anything to it.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
Fortunately for my opponent, I only get 1 doomscythe in and 2 night scythes. They zip up at cruising speed (though I don't believe I had to move 36").
Wraiths then advance under the protection of the scythes.
Doomscythe fires at his command unit but the deathray line isn't very long this time. I kill 4 bikers and his attack bike makes its jink cover. Night scythes wipe out 1 unit of attack bikes for First Blood, but I can't hurt his eldar jetbikes (they make every single save).
Biker Marines 3
Spoiler:
His captain goes directly towards my objective to try to draw my wraiths away. The other attack bike goes after my AB.
Weakened wraith squad gets doomed again.
A bit of a bad break for my opponent as he kills 3 of his bikers trying to move through the ruins (failed dangerous terrain tests).
His bikers then retreat. His jetbikes advance.
The lone suicidal attack bike blows up my AB with his multi-melta.
Then his other bikes focus on my smaller wraith squad and kill 1.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Warriors come in from reserves. My doomscythe does not.
Wraiths go back to deal with his captain. He is, after all, worth 1 VP. Doomscythe advances. Lone wraith goes after lone attack bike.
My 2 night scythes go after his flanking bikes.
Doom scythe kills 1 attack bike and 2 bikers + 1 attack bike from the other biker unit.
I believe my night scythes fail to kill anything as he makes all his armor saves against them.
Attack bike breaks but would regroup next turn.
Wraith assaults. Overwatch misses. I believe we each inflict 1W on each other.
I then assault his commander. He challenges my Warlord and I politely decline....
....because wraiths with Preferred Enemy are more than enough to get the job done to get me the VP.
Biker Marines 4
Spoiler:
Attack bikes advance.
Bikers spread out.
Bikes don't do anything, but the farseer's singing spear wrecks my night scythe. As per the GTFAQ, my warriors go back into reserves without any harm.
In assault, my lone wraith finishes off the attack bike.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Doom scythe finally comes in from reserves and goes after the jetbike squad. The other doomscythe goes after his healthy bike squad while the night scythe goes after a 2-man bike squad near his objective (he has 2 of these units there).
My wraith goes after another solo biker.
Warriors and wraiths surround my objective to prevent his jetbikes from contesting.
The doom scythe kills all the guardians, leaving only the farseer alive.
My other doom scythe fails to kill a single marine biker due to him passing every single armor and jink saves.
Finally, my night scythe wipes out the 2-man biker squad.
In assault, his attack bike shoots down my wraith with his overwatch fire.
Biker Marines 5
Spoiler:
Biker marine movement.
BOOM!!! He kills another night scythe and ruins my plan to contest.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
We call the game here because there is no way he could win. If he had moved his farseer to contest (and we played this out to see what would have happened), I would have shot him down with 30 rapid-fire shots from the 15 warriors on my objective, with my wraithstar ready to assault anyone had my warriors failed.
So we both have each other's objectives for 3 VP's each.
He gets Linebreaker for getting his farseer into my deployment zone for +1 VP.
I get +2 VP for First Blood and for killing his Warlord.
Nice thread. I enjoyed reading your reports and comments; but haven't yet read game 5.
Game 4 perfectly showed that Flyers rule these days. Even if the situation can get grim (losing several Wraiths early in the game), the Flyers can pull you through and rule if the enemy has no means to take them down. The win was a logical consequence of this even if your troop units are rather weak and non-numerous.
This is an example of what not knowing the enemy does for you. Did the SM Biker player have any idea how a Doom Scythe works? The way he lined up the bikers is almost as good as conceeding the game.
Aleinikov wrote:This is an example of what not knowing the enemy does for you. Did the SM Biker player have any idea how a Doom Scythe works? The way he lined up the bikers is almost as good as conceeding the game.
The games really seem more and more like examples as to why you need to read your opponent's codex before playing them. It seems so far not a single opponent has known how to play against Necron air force.
Aleinikov is right about the Bikers, lined up to receive a hit from the Doom Scythes.
About doom, allies of Eldar like SM do not benefit from doom, do they? They are not battle brothers.
The terrain is ridiculous.
Yeah, a lot of armies can take a Doomseer with Runes and a cheap troop, park them in area terrain >6" from your own guys and get psychic defense and Doom for pretty cheap.
Doomseer with Runes - 95
5 Rangers - 95
Look on your opponent's face when you Doom one of his squads and then wreck face with your Nob Bikers? Priceless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Might even be a time when Pathfinders are worth it, to get the added cover protection for the Farseer.
Ricter wrote:How did your doomscythe get such an extreme angle in turn 2?
It looks like it came in at an angle hugging Jy2's board edge. Easy enough to pull off even without using your 90 degree turn.
Doesn't the model have to be completely off the board going back 36"?
The flyer will have to start off the board edge, but I believe it can move anywhere from 18" to 36" when zooming. Anyway, it would look like this in practice:
Red line being the Scythe's movement. Hope that answers your question?
Lovin the diagram.
If the red line in the diagram is 36" long the necron player would have cheated. It would probably need to be no more than 30" to be a legal move but this depends on the angle. I think this is what the person asking originally meant.
Aleinikov wrote:This is an example of what not knowing the enemy does for you. Did the SM Biker player have any idea how a Doom Scythe works? The way he lined up the bikers is almost as good as conceeding the game.
I had actually played another Necron army two rounds before that had two Doom Sythes. It was also Hammer and Anvil. In that game I had stayed back and when his first Doom Sythe Came in I was a little better spaced and I made an appropriate amount of jink saves. So the initial damage wasn't so bad. Then I just hammered it with MultiMeltas and plasmas.
The problem this game was there were 4 fliers instead of 2, and I was being threatened with the wraiths wheras the last game a bunch of warriors just hung in the back field.
In both games playing Hammer and Anvil I unfortunately have too many bases and not enough room. I'm trying to stay right at 23" so I can shoot buy not likely get charged. But there isn't enough realestate in this deployment to get spaced out like you can in dawn of war. Believe me everything about this mission had me cringing (single objective, hammer and anvil, necron flyers).
So I felt like I had to take the risk to try to down those wraith or get the barge to as least get first blood.
Alas that didn't happen, he got first blood, and I would eventually lose the game by one point (if I recall). My only loss of the tournament (I tied one other game).
And jy2 is spot on when he said it was this was the list I wanted to play least. I knew I would be on table two day two and have to play either mech GK, mech BA, or Necron Fliers. All the guys are great generals but GARGH fliers of doom was the last thing I wanted to see for this particular game. If it had been just about any other mission and deployment I felt like I could have had a chance.
So I'll admit I was a bit flummoxed as to what to do to pull out a win this game.
But certainly hats off to jy2 for a great tournament win!
Aleinikov wrote:This is an example of what not knowing the enemy does for you. Did the SM Biker player have any idea how a Doom Scythe works? The way he lined up the bikers is almost as good as conceeding the game.
I had actually played another Necron army two rounds before that had two Doom Sythes. It was also Hammer and Anvil. In that game I had stayed back and when his first Doom Sythe Came in I was a little better spaced and I made an appropriate amount of jink saves. So the initial damage wasn't so bad. Then I just hammered it with MultiMeltas and plasmas.
The problem this game was there were 4 fliers instead of 2, and I was being threatened with the wraiths wheras the last game a bunch of warriors just hung in the back field.
In both games playing Hammer and Anvil I unfortunately have too many bases and not enough room. I'm trying to stay right at 23" so I can shoot buy not likely get charged. But there isn't enough realestate in this deployment to get spaced out like you can in dawn of war. Believe me everything about this mission had me cringing (single objective, hammer and anvil, necron flyers).
So I felt like I had to take the risk to try to down those wraith or get the barge to as least get first blood.
Alas that didn't happen, he got first blood, and I would eventually lose the game by one point (if I recall). My only loss of the tournament (I tied one other game).
And jy2 is spot on when he said it was this was the list I wanted to play least. I knew I would be on table two day two and have to play either mech GK, mech BA, or Necron Fliers. All the guys are great generals but GARGH fliers of doom was the last thing I wanted to see for this particular game. If it had been just about any other mission and deployment I felt like I could have had a chance.
So I'll admit I was a bit flummoxed as to what to do to pull out a win this game.
But certainly hats off to jy2 for a great tournament win!
Why didn't you mass assault turn 2? You would have been safe when his fliers arrive and can always combat tactics out later to fry his troops when they arrive. Wraiths are not that good in combat especially after doom shooting one unit to nothing. Either that or hang back on your edge like jy2 apparently did all tournament lol. Hey come get my wraiths.... to bad come get my bikes. His four fliers would not be able to take down that whole mob in just few turns. They fly on max and hope to get a few hits with only tesla (out range the death ray.) then boost under the fliers toward the center so he can't hit you and have to fly into ongoing reserves. That would limit them to what, one or two good turns of fire. I also could not figure out why you would start a bike squad in terrain on your objective.
The Multi assault probably would have been the best idea. I did not thinking haning back for long would fix my problem. I figured turn 2 he would move fliers up and scoot the wraiths up, then turn 3 there would be nowhere for me to run.
But yes the multi assault would have been the best call. Even if I wasn't killing much in the way of wraiths I probably would have stuck in combat and been pretty safe from fliers for a turn. Then I could try to combat tactics out of assault if I wanted on my turn for another round of shooting and charging.
I have been mauled by wraiths before (not with my bikes) and I think my head was already spinning about pulling up what I felt was a bad matchup for the scenario.
Good call! I will definitely take not of this for future games!
Captn Dees wrote:The Multi assault probably would have been the best idea. I did not thinking haning back for long would fix my problem. I figured turn 2 he would move fliers up and scoot the wraiths up, then turn 3 there would be nowhere for me to run.
But yes the multi assault would have been the best call. Even if I wasn't killing much in the way of wraiths I probably would have stuck in combat and been pretty safe from fliers for a turn. Then I could try to combat tactics out of assault if I wanted on my turn for another round of shooting and charging.
I have been mauled by wraiths before (not with my bikes) and I think my head was already spinning about pulling up what I felt was a bad matchup for the scenario.
Good call! I will definitely take not of this for future games!
No problem mate, I make the same mistake myself. It's hard paying with different units against an old adversary and not looking at the situation with tinted vision. Wraiths definitely took a hit this edition though (all assaulty units actually) and being able to shoot his numbers down a couple before charging would have ensured your safety. Especially dooming his warlords unit. Just break off the farseer, doom the destroyer wraiths and maybe try to charge his A barge or join the fray. This way you don't have to risk the jet bikes early on. Remember t5hat seer is expendable
Red Corsair wrote:I also could not figure out why you would start a bike squad in terrain on your objective.
I can understand hiding them; he absolutely had to hold his own objective, and in this all-bike army, there weren't a lot of choices to use for that role.
But 3 failed DT tests, followed by 3 failed armor saves?!? Ouch.
If the red line in the diagram is 36" long the necron player would have cheated. It would probably need to be no more than 30" to be a legal move but this depends on the angle. I think this is what the person asking originally meant.
Something to keep in mind.
Yes, that is what I meant, although poorly explained.
If the red line in the diagram is 36" long the necron player would have cheated. It would probably need to be no more than 30" to be a legal move but this depends on the angle. I think this is what the person asking originally meant.
Something to keep in mind.
Yes, that is what I meant, although poorly explained.
Keep in mind that a Scythe arriving from reserves still gets a 90 degree turn at the end of its move. It could fly on at a less extreme angle than in my diagram then turn to face its target (so, at the end of its move, it looks parallel to the board edge). From my own experience with Flyers, that Doom Scythe's position looks very reasonable.
Incorrect, 90 degree t the start only. When entering reserve you can come on a whatever angle you want so long as you don't leave play that same turn but you do not get a pivot at the end.
Automatically Appended Next Post: unless I missed something that gives NS vector dancer?
Red Corsair wrote:I also could not figure out why you would start a bike squad in terrain on your objective.
I can understand hiding them; he absolutely had to hold his own objective, and in this all-bike army, there weren't a lot of choices to use for that role.
But 3 failed DT tests, followed by 3 failed armor saves?!? Ouch.
So why not put the objective in the extreme corner so it could be screened off with a bike squad? It doesn't make sense to me either way to put your bikes in terrain where he did. They lack the range of a support squad and where the objective was placed a NS transported unit of warriors could have contested it at any time from the other side last turn.
Red Corsair wrote:I also could not figure out why you would start a bike squad in terrain on your objective.
I can understand hiding them; he absolutely had to hold his own objective, and in this all-bike army, there weren't a lot of choices to use for that role.
But 3 failed DT tests, followed by 3 failed armor saves?!? Ouch.
So why not put the objective in the extreme corner so it could be screened off with a bike squad? It doesn't make sense to me either way to put your bikes in terrain where he did. They lack the range of a support squad and where the objective was placed a NS transported unit of warriors could have contested it at any time from the other side last turn.
Trying to avoid getting shot to death? Tesla Destructors are really nasty guns - they still wound T5 on a 2+. (And remember, "extreme corner" is still limited to 6" in from the edges, which is pretty close to where the objective is, so far as I can tell from the pictures.
OK and your point being that attempting to hide 5 bikes in DT is a good plan? Then why barely move and suffer the 5 tests? No, sorry, but I have to disagree. Put it in a none dangerous corner and grab it with your closest units later. Leaving it only encourages him to disembark his warriors early. If he doesn't until last turn (which would be smart) then my point stands. The best way to beat fliers is with mobility and target saturation. Hiding a unit, in DT to boot, simply gives the flying list one less target to have to choose between. As I said, I would have engaged in CC turn two with everything possible (even the farseer) except the jet-bikes who can out range his army every movement phase do to the restrictions on zooming.
Edit: after double checking they weren't even out of sight, a flyer hugging the edge would see down on most of the unit....and there's a fething door lol.
whigwam wrote:Keep in mind that a Scythe arriving from reserves still gets a 90 degree turn at the end of its move. It could fly on at a less extreme angle than in my diagram then turn to face its target (so, at the end of its move, it looks parallel to the board edge). From my own experience with Flyers, that Doom Scythe's position looks very reasonable.
This is what concerned me - many people aren't understanding/restricting flier movement appropriately and making them more potent than they should be. Unless noted that somehow the Doom Scythe gets Vector Dancer, which I couldn't find. Again, it's likely a fine move anyways.
Red Corsair wrote:OK and your point being that attempting to hide 5 bikes in DT is a good plan? Then why barely move and suffer the 5 tests? No, sorry, but I have to disagree. Put it in a none dangerous corner and grab it with your closest units later. Leaving it only encourages him to disembark his warriors early. If he doesn't until last turn (which would be smart) then my point stands. The best way to beat fliers is with mobility and target saturation. Hiding a unit, in DT to boot, simply gives the flying list one less target to have to choose between. As I said, I would have engaged in CC turn two with everything possible (even the farseer) except the jet-bikes who can out range his army every movement phase do to the restrictions on zooming.
Edit: after double checking they weren't even out of sight, a flyer hugging the edge would see down on most of the unit....and there's a fething door lol.
No it was a horrible plan.
To be honest I was beat by his list and over thinking. I was so panicked about the wraiths I made plenty of bad calls. I should have just lined up and gone after him in assault with the bikes as pointed out earlier. Getting back to an objective has never been a problem for me so... meh, what else can I say. I was a hot sweaty mess that game!
Though to be fair bikes I have not had much problem with bikes and cover. Rolling an occasional one and then getting an armor save means usually not many dead bikes.
Not sure if anyone has brought this up - but did your opponent in Game 4 also fail his armour saves against the terrain tests? I assume so if he lost 3 bikers - but that is some terrible odds (1 in 18 now to kill a bike via terrain!
Captn Dees wrote:Though to be fair bikes I have not had much problem with bikes and cover. Rolling an occasional one and then getting an armor save means usually not many dead bikes.
Usually...
Seriously, I think probability of failing 3 (of 5) Terrain checks and then 3 armor saves is something along the lines of 8000:1.
calypso2ts wrote:Not sure if anyone has brought this up - but did your opponent in Game 4 also fail his armour saves against the terrain tests? I assume so if he lost 3 bikers - but that is some terrible odds (1 in 18 now to kill a bike via terrain!
He rolled 3 1's for dangerous terrain. He then rolled 1,1,2 (or maybe 1,2,2) for his armor saves. My heart went out to those bikers. They died before my deathray could vaporize them....
At the last 'Ard boys semis I played a guy with two, two-man oblit squads. Turn one he rolls for plasma canon over heat and gets snake eyes, he then rolls for saves....snake eyes. OK, next unit, snake eyes for over heat.....snake eyes again for armor saves!!!! He had also just rolled his first DT with a rhino in terrain right before that, I had never seen such bad rolling in my life the kid refused to roll on that side of the table for the rest of the game ha ha.
Literally the first 9 rolls he made of the game were all !!! Poor guy had the worst luck I had ever seen, it didn't stop there all match either rofl.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captn Dees wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:OK and your point being that attempting to hide 5 bikes in DT is a good plan? Then why barely move and suffer the 5 tests? No, sorry, but I have to disagree. Put it in a none dangerous corner and grab it with your closest units later. Leaving it only encourages him to disembark his warriors early. If he doesn't until last turn (which would be smart) then my point stands. The best way to beat fliers is with mobility and target saturation. Hiding a unit, in DT to boot, simply gives the flying list one less target to have to choose between. As I said, I would have engaged in CC turn two with everything possible (even the farseer) except the jet-bikes who can out range his army every movement phase do to the restrictions on zooming.
Edit: after double checking they weren't even out of sight, a flyer hugging the edge would see down on most of the unit....and there's a fething door lol.
No it was a horrible plan.
To be honest I was beat by his list and over thinking. I was so panicked about the wraiths I made plenty of bad calls. I should have just lined up and gone after him in assault with the bikes as pointed out earlier. Getting back to an objective has never been a problem for me so... meh, what else can I say. I was a hot sweaty mess that game!
Though to be fair bikes I have not had much problem with bikes and cover. Rolling an occasional one and then getting an armor save means usually not many dead bikes.
Usually...
I hear ya mate, I find it hard to even WANT to continue playing 40k by my fourth game let alone more after. Sometimes I drop when or if their is an odd number even if im in contention to win it because I find it no longer fun and want to watch the other games. So brain farts are not uncommon by then, especially if your prone to overthink. Love your army comp btw, must be a fun list to play.
whigwam wrote:The flyer will have to start off the board edge, but I believe it can move anywhere from 18" to 36" when zooming. Anyway, it would look like this in practice:
Red line being the Scythe's movement. Hope that answers your question?
Right, so I phrased that rather poorly. The flier can, at most, move 36". Since the entire model has to start off the board edge, that means if you move it straight backwards 36", the entire model would be off the board. I guess, to me, it looks like the flier is parallel (or nearly) with the long board edge. It could just be the angle, but it doesn't seem like the flier would be off the board if moved backwards up to 36". In the end it wouldn't have effected the game either way, I just want to make sure I hadn't missed anything.
It can be done easily enough. That move requires about 30" of movement to pull off (+/- a couple of inches). There is room left to spare. You also have a 45 deg arc afterwards so you can defintely hit units in the more extreme angles if you came in along the long board edge. And if you couldn't with the tesla, you could with the deathray. That gun gives you a little more leeway.
Aleinikov wrote:This is an example of what not knowing the enemy does for you. Did the SM Biker player have any idea how a Doom Scythe works? The way he lined up the bikers is almost as good as conceeding the game.
He's played against them once before, in the same tournament. I think its a combination of fatigue (after 5 games) and a little bit of panic.
Ricter wrote:
Aleinikov wrote:This is an example of what not knowing the enemy does for you. Did the SM Biker player have any idea how a Doom Scythe works? The way he lined up the bikers is almost as good as conceeding the game.
The games really seem more and more like examples as to why you need to read your opponent's codex before playing them. It seems so far not a single opponent has known how to play against Necron air force.
The BRB is still new. Many people haven't gotten a lot of games in yet. And probably the more diehard fans who are constantly lurking through the internet forums will probably have an idea of how the power builds are like. But for many here (and around the world in various tournaments), I think it's going to be a learning experience.
Also, sometimes reading about something and then playing against them are 2 completely different things. You may know what its stats are, but how well it synergizes on the table with the rest of the army can you won't know until you face it for the very first time.
wuestenfux wrote:
pretre wrote:Doom doesn't affect a friendly unit, just an enemy unit, so non-BB still get it.
This can be quite nasty! But it wasn't in game 5.
It did probably help him kill 1-2 more wraiths. But mainly, it makes the eldar allies somewhat useful against a non-psychic army.
pretre wrote:Yeah, a lot of armies can take a Doomseer with Runes and a cheap troop, park them in area terrain >6" from your own guys and get psychic defense and Doom for pretty cheap.
Doomseer with Runes - 95
5 Rangers - 95
Look on your opponent's face when you Doom one of his squads and then wreck face with your Nob Bikers? Priceless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Might even be a time when Pathfinders are worth it, to get the added cover protection for the Farseer.
I like the jetseer with guardian jetbikes much better. More expensive, but a lot more utility with that mobility of theirs, including objective grabbing/contesting and Linebreaker.
Captn Dees wrote:I had actually played another Necron army two rounds before that had two Doom Sythes. It was also Hammer and Anvil. In that game I had stayed back and when his first Doom Sythe Came in I was a little better spaced and I made an appropriate amount of jink saves. So the initial damage wasn't so bad. Then I just hammered it with MultiMeltas and plasmas.
The problem this game was there were 4 fliers instead of 2, and I was being threatened with the wraiths wheras the last game a bunch of warriors just hung in the back field.
In both games playing Hammer and Anvil I unfortunately have too many bases and not enough room. I'm trying to stay right at 23" so I can shoot buy not likely get charged. But there isn't enough realestate in this deployment to get spaced out like you can in dawn of war. Believe me everything about this mission had me cringing (single objective, hammer and anvil, necron flyers).
So I felt like I had to take the risk to try to down those wraith or get the barge to as least get first blood.
Alas that didn't happen, he got first blood, and I would eventually lose the game by one point (if I recall). My only loss of the tournament (I tied one other game).
And jy2 is spot on when he said it was this was the list I wanted to play least. I knew I would be on table two day two and have to play either mech GK, mech BA, or Necron Fliers. All the guys are great generals but GARGH fliers of doom was the last thing I wanted to see for this particular game. If it had been just about any other mission and deployment I felt like I could have had a chance.
So I'll admit I was a bit flummoxed as to what to do to pull out a win this game.
But certainly hats off to jy2 for a great tournament win!
Thanks Dan,
It was a rough matchup for you for sure. Your army actually made me have to think. Should I go after your objective with my wraiths and get all shot to death or should I just defend mine and try to contest at the end with my warriors in scythes? Honestly, I didn't take your army lightly as I think SM bikers have gotten a major boost this edition.
But a couple of things worked in my favor. Hammer and Anvil deployment forced you to bunch up because you were trying to maximize firepower against my wraiths (so that every unit and everyone in that unit could shoot).
Also, you didn't quite know how to play against my list. You were basically playing instinctively against it how you would have played against every other army.
But you are now a game wiser. The next time we play, I expect you to be able to table me.
jy2 wrote:It can be done easily enough. That move requires about 30" of movement to pull off (+/- a couple of inches). There is room left to spare. You also have a 45 deg arc afterwards so you can defintely hit units in the more extreme angles if you came in along the long board edge. And if you couldn't with the tesla, you could with the deathray. That gun gives you a little more leeway.
Oh, of course. That's why I said earlier it didn't effect the game - the 45 degree arc means you had plenty of leeway, really. Actually, just thinking about it now, but you more punished yourself with that move than anything - you could have essentially come in at a 45 degree angle from the board edge, and had a much wider area you could move the next turn.
I guess I am a little disappointed so far, though. I was hoping to see strong tactics from your opponents, and maybe a few close games. Instead, it seems you've rolled over everyone without trying, mostly because not a single opponent seems to have any idea what to do against Necron Airforce. Every single one has played into your conservative "hang back and burn time until fliers arrive" strategy. All credit due to you for using the right strategy and I'm not trying to take away from your win - but it'd be nice to see if someone playing a ground list using proper tactics can throw up a competitive game, and we've not seen that yet.
Captn Dees wrote:Though to be fair bikes I have not had much problem with bikes and cover. Rolling an occasional one and then getting an armor save means usually not many dead bikes.
Usually...
Seriously, I think probability of failing 3 (of 5) Terrain checks and then 3 armor saves is something along the lines of 8000:1.
I think it's somewhere along the line of 5/3 (5 guys/3 tests) x 1/18 x 1/18 x 1/18 = 1/3499, or about 3500:1, but I could be wrong. My math's a little rusty.
Red Corsair wrote:At the last 'Ard boys semis I played a guy with two, two-man oblit squads. Turn one he rolls for plasma canon over heat and gets snake eyes, he then rolls for saves....snake eyes. OK, next unit, snake eyes for over heat.....snake eyes again for armor saves!!!! He had also just rolled his first DT with a rhino in terrain right before that, I had never seen such bad rolling in my life the kid refused to roll on that side of the table for the rest of the game ha ha.
Literally the first 9 rolls he made of the game were all !!! Poor guy had the worst luck I had ever seen, it didn't stop there all match either rofl.
All I can say to that is.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ricter wrote:
jy2 wrote:It can be done easily enough. That move requires about 30" of movement to pull off (+/- a couple of inches). There is room left to spare. You also have a 45 deg arc afterwards so you can defintely hit units in the more extreme angles if you came in along the long board edge. And if you couldn't with the tesla, you could with the deathray. That gun gives you a little more leeway.
Oh, of course. That's why I said earlier it didn't effect the game - the 45 degree arc means you had plenty of leeway, really. Actually, just thinking about it now, but you more punished yourself with that move than anything - you could have essentially come in at a 45 degree angle from the board edge, and had a much wider area you could move the next turn.
I guess I am a little disappointed so far, though. I was hoping to see strong tactics from your opponents, and maybe a few close games. Instead, it seems you've rolled over everyone without trying, mostly because not a single opponent seems to have any idea what to do against Necron Airforce. Every single one has played into your conservative "hang back and burn time until fliers arrive" strategy. All credit due to you for using the right strategy and I'm not trying to take away from your win - but it'd be nice to see if someone playing a ground list using proper tactics can throw up a competitive game, and we've not seen that yet.
Don't worry, I get quite a fight coming up in my next 2 games - against Christian and Frankie, both of whom are very good players from Team Zero Comp. As a matter of fact, Christian is ranked #3 and Frankie #20 in the US on RankingsHQ.com. Christian was also the winner of the Bay Area Open last year.
Captn Dees wrote:Though to be fair bikes I have not had much problem with bikes and cover. Rolling an occasional one and then getting an armor save means usually not many dead bikes.
Usually...
Seriously, I think probability of failing 3 (of 5) Terrain checks and then 3 armor saves is something along the lines of 8000:1.
I think it's somewhere along the line of 5/3 (5 guys/3 tests) x 1/18 x 1/18 x 1/18 = 1/3499, or about 3500:1, but I could be wrong. My math's a little rusty.
(5/6)(5/6)(1/6)(1/6)(1/6) * (1/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 25 / 209952 = 1 / 8398 ish. I think you forgot to account for the fact that he did pass two of the tests. Of course, that's a bit misleading - that's the probability of failing exactly 3 dt tests of 5 and failing every armor save - there are a lot of ways he could have ended up with 3 (or more dead). Still pretty bad odds, though.
And not trying to derail the thread, but since everyone is talking flyer tactics I wanted to point out this article James Curry wrote for us about getting the maximum amount of shots out of a flyer, it is really well done.
So after 5 games, there are only 2 undefeated players left, Christian with his Grey Knights and me with my Necrons. Christian is a very good and successful tournament player. He won the Bay Area Open GT 2012 as well as Comikaze 2011. He also got 2nd at the Grand Waagh 2011 last year. He is currently ranked #3 overall in the USA according to RankingsHQ.com and was ranked #1 for a while.
I've actually played him once before at a tournament at Game Kastle (battle report here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/346664.page ). He brought his vicious mechguards and I brought my shooty tyranids. We actually tied in our match against each other and overall as well. However, he got the tiebreaker against me so ended up 1st whereas I took 2nd.
It appears we finally get our long-awaited rematch.
1500 Necrons
I used a slightly tweaked version of my list #3.
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Resurrection Orb, Weave - 190
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Christian has brought a very shooty grey knights army. His type of army is what is refered to in the competitive meta as MSU, or multiple-small-units. Basically, the philosophy behind MSU is to take maximum advantage of min-max army configurations. You minimize the squad size and then maximize the number of squads. This brings increased firepower, increased redundancy and target saturation for the opponent. It really emphasizes efficiency of build and maximal firepower. Its main drawbacks? Weak troops who can't really hold objectives well and a high amount of Kill Points, or in this case, Victory Points for the Purge the Alien scenario.
Back in 5th edition, MSU was considered one of the most competitive army builds. The question now is, how well will it hold up in 6th Edition? Is MSU still king, or one of the kings of competitive 40K? Well, so far, my opponent has been wrecking house with a 5-0 record up til now. But now he's about to run into what may be the future of competitive 6th Edition - my scythe-crons.
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: My opponent's shooting is fearsome indeed. Of all the armies in this tournament, his may well be the shootiest one. It's got good ranged AT and while his anti-infantry may not necessarily be the best, it's pretty darn good. As for assault, some may look at the 3-men henchmen units and go, "Huh? What assault?" But we veteran players know better. MSU armies don't rely on assault. What they do is either tarpit you (with dreads) or screen out with sacrificial units. You may kill that unit, but he's just bought himself another turn of shooting with the sacrifice of that screening unit. Honestly, I think that MSU is still a very competitive build in 6E despite the slight nerf to vehicles (i.e. they are easier to kill now).
Also, the key to killing flyers is massed shooting. The more the better. And twin-linked shooting is IMO the most efficient way (in the absence of skyfire) to do it. My opponent has got a lot of twin-linked shooting in spades, and that isn't just his vehicles. With psychic powers, he can also make his purifiers twin-linked with 8 psycannon shots a turn. His shooting is actually a large concern of mine. How well the game goes will depend on how well his shooting goes. If he shoots well, he will win. If not, I will win. Simple.
In spite of all his shooting, my opponent is going to have his hands full. If there is one thing my army excels in, that's taking out vehicles, including those AV12 dreads. I will get the alpha strike every time my flyers come in. The doomscythe is almost a guaranteed 1 kill at least, whereas each night scythe has a very good chance to take out his AV11 transports. If my wraiths can hold out until my flyers can come in (I'm going to need them to kill his infantry), then I think I will have the advantage, because every wave of flyers that come in will reduce his firepower and allow my wraiths to play more aggressively.
Also, one thing to note is that his dreadknight is actually dangerous now. With his S10 and force weapons, he is a threat to both my wraiths and my Lord. He may just be the X-factor in this game.
BTW, Coteaz gets the power that let's 1 unit re-roll hits (Prescience) as well as the power that gives a unit 4++ invuln (Forewarning). Every turn, he would cast Prescience on his own Purifier unit.
I am very fortunate this turn. Shooting from his entire army only puts 1W on 1 wraith in each squad as well as 2W on my Warlord.
He also takes off 1 Hull Point from my AB with a glancing shot.
While it's sad that I won't be able to use my Dlord to tank his shooting anymore (I am down to just 1W left), at least I haven't lost a single model this turn.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
Crons advance. So stupid of me....I move my annihilation barge 12". I should have just moved it 6" so that it can fire at full Ballistic Skill.
Anyways, it fires in snapshot mode and takes off 1 HP from Coteaz's ride. I was planning to get First Blood with my AB, but now my opponent has the chance to do that. I'm going to kick myself if I lose because of First Blood.
My wraiths attempt to charge his rhino. Overwatch from Coteaz's unit, which by the ways is twin-linked due to Prescience, takes out 1 wraith. I then fail my charge.
Grey Knights 2
Spoiler:
His dreadknight moves to about 20" away from my wraiths.
Now he starts to spread out in anticipation of my doomscythes.
His shooting is awesome this turn as he wipes out 1 entire unit of wraiths! He also gets First Blood for doing so.
He also kills 1 wraith my from my other wraith squad.
Overall, a very good turn of shooting for my opponent.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
Payback time! Both doomscythes come in.
My wraiths take the bait and go after his dreadknight. Warriors head for the Relic.
I roll low for 1 deathray and it only hits his vendread and a psyback. I glance/pen his dread to death (exploded) and stun a psyback (which he fortitudes off on his turn).
Actually, I roll low for both deathrays. The other doomscythe only kills the dread on the hill (exploded as well).
Finally, I assault his dreadknight. He then challenges my Warlord and I accept.
Mindshackle fails to go off and he kills my Warlord. We play it as, even though his dreadknight is in base contact with my wraith's whip coils, he didn't get reduced to Initiative 1 because he is in a challenge.
My Dlord would fail to get back up. I knew I shouldn't have accepted his challenge....
Not looking too good for me right now. 1 unit of wraiths and my Warlord both gone. The other unit stuck in combat against his dreadknight....
Grey Knights 3
Spoiler:
GK movement. Both his purifiers stay still.
Shooting completely wipes out 1 unit of warriors and 1 model from my 2nd unit.
Then his shooting gets really hot. He downs 1 doomscythe and takes out the deathray on the other doomscythe!!!
In assault, I do 1W to his dreadknight and he insta-kills 1 wraith.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Neither of my night scythes come in!!!
Doomscythe moves 18". AB tries to get cover behind the ruins. Warriors make a dash for the Relic but will need another turn....assuming they survive.
AB wrecks his psyback that was heading for my deployment zone.
Doom scythe shoots at his last dread. I take 2 HP's off and stun it (which he fortitudes off next turn).
Finally, wraiths take off another 1W from the dreadknight and he kills another wraith.
He's basically eliminated all my major threats (doomscythes, wraiths, Warlord) as well as wiped out 1 troop unit. He still has all his scoring units as well as both units of purifiers.
Victory is looking more and more "un-possible" at this point.
Grey Knights 4
Spoiler:
He goes in for the kill. Both units of purifiers disembark and swarm the Relic to prevent my warriors from taking it.
They lay waste to my unit of warriors.
He fails to do anything to my doomscythe.
I believe he takes off another 1 HP from my AB with another glance.
Finally in assault, I do another 1W to his dreadknight.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Finally, my night scythes automatically come in from reserves. I go right after his purifiers and Coteaz.
My doomscythe flies off the board and into Ongoing Reserves.
Focused-fire takes out 3 purifiers and insta-gibs Coteaz (I believe he also failed his Look Out Sir).
At least I get 1 VP for slaying his Warlord.
I believe the tesla arc zaps the rhino behind for another Hull Point (1 HP left).
My AB snipes down his last dread.
Finally, I finish off his dreadknight.
Despite a decent turn from me, I am still behind.
Grey Knights 5
Spoiler:
GK movement. He moves his guys and transport to protect the Relic.
Transports mobilize. His unit of henchmen finally goes to claim the Relic, which he didn't plan to do until this turn.
To stop my wraiths from meddling, he shoots them down.
Last but not least, he moves his transports flat-out in the Shooting phase to protect his guys.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
So he's got the Relic. I think I can wrestle that away from him if I can shoot down his henchmen.
We've both killed each other's Warlord.
And he's winning right now by First Blood.
I have a slight chance at a draw. My opponent makes a mistake that I thought was uncharacteristic of him. He forgot to get one of his units into my deployment zone for Linebreaker.
So I need to kill off the unit with the Relic, get 1 of my troops into his deployment zone....and then pray that the game ends.
I've set up my last turn exactly for this strategy.
Doom scythe comes in. 1 night scythe zips forwards 18".
The other night scythe zips 36" into his deployment zone and drops off my troops another 6". It then flies off the board with its flat-out move and my troops run behind cover.
Shooting wipes out his troops! Though I have to fire both my AB and doomscythe at them because they went-to-ground.
My night scythe wrecks his psyback. I would have shot at his henchmen, but it was iffy if I could have shot them due to the 45 deg vertical arc of my teslas (I probably could but I didn't want to take the chance).
So now he no longer has the Relic. He's got my Warlord and First Blood for 2 VP's. I've got his Warlord and Linebreaker also for 2 VP's.
I pick up the die and pray to the dice gods to see if I can pull off a Frankie on my opponent. (Twice against his fellow teammate Frankie, when he was thoroughly thrashing my army, I get those 2 games to end after 5 to give me the win.)
So I roll to see if the game continues and.....
Grey Knights 6
Spoiler:
The show must go on....
Vehicles go and try to protect his fragile troops. My opponent is trying to block my LOS to his troops so that I cannot shoot them down. The smaller unit of purifiers go after my AB.
Another unit of henchmen jumps on the Relic to claim it.
Shooting immobilizes (locks the velocity of) my night scythe and takes off 1 HP.
He shoots at my warriors in his deployment zone and bring down 2. 1 gets back up.
Transports move flat-out to make sure I can't see his troops.
Finally, his purifiers assault my AB with his S10 hammer and explode it.
Necrons 6
Spoiler:
Doomscythe comes in from ongoing reserves. I can see his troops with the Relic. My "immobilized" night scythe flies off the board and the other doom scythe moves to where the night scythe was.
I shoot down the henchmen out in the open. However, I fail to shoot down his henchmen with the Relic as he successfully makes his cover saves!
Uh oh! If the game ends now, I lose as Christian is in possession of the Relic.
We roll to see if it continues and.....
Grey Knights 7
Spoiler:
The game isn't over til the plump lady sings....which should be at the end of this game turn.
His purifiers go after my warriors.
One unit of henchmen disembark from his psyback after it moves 6". They then run into the forests in my deployment zone.
Finally, his purifiers shoot down my warriors.
And that is game....
Necrons 7
Spoiler:
I just finish up my turn for formalities. Doomscythe comes in.
My night scythe goes and drop off my troops into his deployment zone for Linebreaker.
Doomscythe sees and shoots down his henchmen with the Relic. If only I had been able to do that last turn. Le sigh.....
I think that the Grey Knight game would've turned out differently if the Dreadknight hadn't tied you up for so long.
I find high toughness, high wound monstrous creatures to be a real hassle for Necrons. Our only way of dealing with them quickly is usually our HQ, and even that isn't realiable (as you showed). Massed Tesla Destructors would've been good, but then they wouldn't have been used elsewhere.
I think that monstrous creatures have an impact larger than their points against 'crons, and I don't think there's an easy solution. In most situations, it's either (a) avoid them (b) pray to the dice gods or (c) spend a disproportionate amount of resources on them.
Dozer Blades wrote:Not really - the NDK only had four wounds - the Nightscythes' high rate of fire and wounding 3+ plus extra shots can drop it pretty fast.
It's fine to go with the Night Scythe/Annihilation Barge shots, but statistically it takes a LOT of volleys to bring it down.
Each Night Scythe has 4 twin-linked, S7 AP - shots (with the Tesla rule). The NDK has T6, W4 and a 2+ save. Given those odds, it takes about 6 volleys to have a 50% chance of bringing it down. It's not until you get to 9 volleys that you have an 80% chance of killing it.
That's a lot to give up elsewhere. This is what I mean when I say that they have a larger impact than their points would suggest.
whoadirty wrote:Awesome reports so far, thanks for sharing!
Also, props if that is a Crown Royal bag you are using for your dice.
Thanks.
Nope. Sorry, not mine, though I could use one.
DexKivuli wrote:I think that the Grey Knight game would've turned out differently if the Dreadknight hadn't tied you up for so long.
I find high toughness, high wound monstrous creatures to be a real hassle for Necrons. Our only way of dealing with them quickly is usually our HQ, and even that isn't realiable (as you showed). Massed Tesla Destructors would've been good, but then they wouldn't have been used elsewhere.
I think that monstrous creatures have an impact larger than their points against 'crons, and I don't think there's an easy solution. In most situations, it's either (a) avoid them (b) pray to the dice gods or (c) spend a disproportionate amount of resources on them.
The DK was annoying but honestly, I don't think he was a huge threat to my army compared to all the shooting. I actually assaulted him so that my wraiths wouldn't get shot to death. My plan was to get my wraiths tied up for a couple of turns while my scythes go around killing his vehicles. Then when they get out of combat, they would have some infantry to kill. My mistake was to accept his challenge to my Warlord. Should have just let the wraiths finish him off with Whip Coils, rending and Preferred Enemy. They had a good chance of winning that battle over time.
I'm not concerned about monstrous creatures. I can usually kill them with volume of attacks from the wraiths and Dlord with Mindshackles. It's only when the opponent charges me with multiple units in addition to his MC's where I have trouble. Put some cannon fodder and MC in base with my Dlord and now Mindshackles isn't so reliable (unless, of course, I make a challenge).
DexKivuli wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:Not really - the NDK only had four wounds - the Nightscythes' high rate of fire and wounding 3+ plus extra shots can drop it pretty fast.
It's fine to go with the Night Scythe/Annihilation Barge shots, but statistically it takes a LOT of volleys to bring it down.
Each Night Scythe has 4 twin-linked, S7 AP - shots (with the Tesla rule). The NDK has T6, W4 and a 2+ save. Given those odds, it takes about 6 volleys to have a 50% chance of bringing it down. It's not until you get to 9 volleys that you have an 80% chance of killing it.
That's a lot to give up elsewhere. This is what I mean when I say that they have a larger impact than their points would suggest.
Right. You can bring down a 2+ MC with the scythes, but it isn't really an efficient use of them. They are better off picking off multiple vehicles (threats).
It's only when they don't really have a target anymore or if I really need to kill the DK (i.e. he is on an objective) will I fire at him.
Cpt Stubbs wrote:On turn 2 when you accepted the challenge did you LOS the wounds your Dlord took or can you not do that during a challenge?
Mannahnin wrote:No LOS in a challenge.
Right. Cannot pass the woud when you are in a challenge.
We even played it that my wraith whip coils couldn't affect his dreadknight (even though they are in base contact) because he was in a challenge.
sudojoe wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:No LOS in a challenge.
You get to intervene in an ongoing challenge though but first round of a challenge, nope, not allowed.
Right....but only if there is another character in that unit. But for a unit of 1 monstrous creature, there is no one there to intervene for him.
CaptainJay wrote:I think you might have been a little pre-emptive posting game 7 is on page 6 :-P disappointed I don't get to read what happened.
Sorry....was working on it but then I had to go out. Will finish a little later today.
Game #7 vs "Harliestar" Eldar/Dark Eldar
The tournament is pretty much done at this point for most of the people. There is now a Final Four series with 2 games to determine 1st - 4th place, with the 4 top ranked players going through. Christian is #1 currently with his 6-0 record. Then there are 4 players tied at 5-1. Due to strength of schedule, my crons are ranked #2. Frankie's Harliestar Deldar are #3 and Sam's (Amerikon's) Sisters of Battle are #4. As swiss pairings usually have #1 vs #4 and #2 vs #3, I get to play against Frankie's Deldar (Eldar with Dark Eldar allies) this turn. Well, that is good because I've already played against both Christian and Sam. If I can get past Frankie, then I'm hoping I can get the chance to avenge my loss to Christian in the Finals, though I'm cool if I face Sam's Sisters again. However, first I need to get pass Frankie and his ever-dangerous deathstar army.
1500 Necrons
I used a slightly tweaked version of my list #3.
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Resurrection Orb, Weave - 190
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
3x War Walkers - 2x Scatter Lasers each
3x War Walkers - 2x Scatter Lasers each
Frankie is a very good player and a member of Team Zero Comp. I believe he is currently ranked #20 in the US according to RankingsHQ.com. He is running his dreaded Harliestar Eldar with Dark Eldar Allies. I've played him a few times and I've got to admit....my luck is just mixed around him. I've faced his Harliestar once with my daemons (battle report here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/465610.page ) and I had probably the most aweful luck against him that game. He was just beating the crap out of my army, however, it was also this bad luck that won me the game as I consistently rolled low, especially when I needed the game to end on Turn 5 for the win. And before that, we had quite a similar game with my MTO necrons against his Nurgle marines back in 5th Edition (battle report here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/421625.page ). So for some reason, I consistently under-perform against Frankie's armies but each time, I was able to pull off the win. This will be an interesting battle.
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: I am actually slightly concerned here. I'm not really sure how to deal with his deathstar so my strategy will be to avoid it. Take out everything else in his army, especially his troops. If he cannot score, then he cannot win (well, he can...but he'd have to wipe out all my troops as well, including the ones in the night scythes).
This is going to be a bad match-up for my opponent. Frankie's problem will be in dealing with my flyers. The only thing he has that can really hurt them are his war walkers, and you can be sure I am going to alpha strike them hard with my flyers to deny him the opportunity. That's really one of the problems with deathstar armies. They'll dominate most lists, but they are also more prone to mismatches against certain lists. My list just happens to be one of those lists.
I think I should be able to take this game without too much problem.
Frankie deploys his deathstar. He also deploys the unit of kabalite warriors into one of the ruins (the upper-right ruins) and out of LOS.
War walkers will be out-flanking.
My deployment. I split up my wraiths, with my Dlord attached to the left unit.
BTW, we both get some useless Warlord traits.
Frankie then tries to be sneaky and re-deploys his deathstar to his right thanks to Eldrad's ability. BTW, his troops are hiding behind the green ruins and currently claiming an objective.
Wraithstar advances towards my opponent's deployment zone. The other unit of wraiths scoot to the left and away from his deathstar.
I make sure to stay about 24"+ away from him and Doom.
Annihilation barge advances and fires at them but don't do anything.
Eldar 2
Spoiler:
1 unit of war walkers come in to the left.
The other unit comes in to the right.
I believe 1 unit of guardian jetbikes also comes in and hide behind terrain.
Harliestar advances.
Fuegan takes a shot at my AB, rolls a to pen and then proceeds to pop it for First Blood.
Then both units of scatter walkers focus on my wraiths without Warlord. Even without Guide and Doom, 48 S6 shots later, they manage to wipe out 4 wraiths and put 1W on the last one.
That was a great turn of shooting for my opponent. Now I just hope my doom scythes come in next turn....
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
Doom scythe and warriors come in on the left. Wraithstar doubles back to go after his walkers.
On the right, the other doom scythe, warriors and 1 night scythe comes in. Night scythes go after his harlequins.
Shooting on the right wipes out 2 walkers and take off 1 Hull Point from the last walker.
On the left, I wipe out his walkers completely.
The night scythe also shoots down 2 harlequins because he didn't have any characters on that side to absorb enemy fire.
Wraiths then run towards his deployment zone as they have no one to assault.
Eldar 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
Wraithstar advances.
2 units of jetbikes and thlast walker advance. I don't quite remember how, but it appears that I shot down 2 bikers (or maybe they were hit by tesla arcs?).
Shooting by the walker wipes out my troops!
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Wraiths advance. The last night scythe doesn't come in.
All my flyers fly off the board and into ongoing reserves.
No shooting or assault.
Eldar 4
Spoiler:
His last unit of bikers come in on the left side of the board.
His deathstar moves towards my wraithstar. Jetbikes hide behind terrain.
They then run. Looks like they should make it into combat next turn....unless I retreat.
His lone war walker shoots down my lone wraith.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Everything comes in from reserves. My flyers go after his jetbike troops.
Wraiths retreat.
The other doom scythe goes after his guardian jetbikes in his deployment zone.
Bam! I wipe out all 3 guardian jetbike squads.
Eldar 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
Frankie has to go for it at this point. He splits up both Eldrad and Fuegan from the harlequins, who move towards my wraiths. Eldrad and Fuegan then move towards my lower-right objective.
BTW, Eldrad took a wound to Perils from eariler before.
I believe it is Fuegan who takes down one of my night scythes.
Eldrad then runs to contest my objective.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
At this point, he's got his objective and I've got mine. Both our Warlords are alive. He's got First Blood and Linebreaker. I can easily get Linebreaker. I am actually behind but to win, I just need to contest his objective.
Night scyhe moves 36" and out disembarks the warriors for both Linebreaker and to contest his objective. I fire at his kabalite warriors but fail to kill even a single 1
Wraiths run towards his harliestar.
This is it. If the game ends now, I win 1 objective to 0. We roll the dice and....
Eldar 6
Spoiler:
....the game continues.
Fuegan goes after my troops.
Vect and friends prepare for the classic duel.
Their shooting actually takes down 1 wraith.
Warriors shoot down 1 warrior.
Fuegan then makes the assault!
He kills 2 and they stay.
Harliequins charge. He challenges with his shadowseer, which I have to accept. My lord kills his seer but he wipes out my wraiths thanks to Preferred Enemy from Vect.
Wow. That was devastating.
Necrons 6
Spoiler:
Before the game is over, I swore to myself that I will kill either Vect or Eldrad. Well, here's my chance to kill an unfortuned Eldrad.
I shoot him down like the dog he is.
Instead of shooting, I assault his warriors with my warriors. I think I win combat by 1 or 2, but he passes morale.
Finally, I challenge Vect but he refuses. The squad still downs my weakened Warlord....
....but not for long. They consolidate away and towards my objective....and then my D-lord gets back up.
I believe in assault his warriors kill 1 of my warriors.
Fuegan also kills only 1 warrior.
We roll to see if the game continues and it will go to 1 final turn.
Eldar 7
Spoiler:
Vect splits off from the unit to go after my Warlord. The unit goes to contest my objective.
They get a good run roll and I believe they make it there to contest.
Vect assaults. I mindshackle him but he makes all his saves. He does, however, fail his shadowfield save against one of my warscythe attacks and go splat!
Necrons 7
Spoiler:
I am actually behind now!
Both objectives are contested with his warriors and harliequins. We've both got Linebreaker. However, he is winning because he's got First Blood!
I need to get either his warriors off his objective or his harlequins off mine!
That should be easy enough to do.
I shoot his harlies off the face of this planet.
In this battle, we have our first and only dispute of the game (and actually ever).
He kills 2 of my warriors! I then kill 1 of his and then pass morale on a 9. However, he later realizes that I rolled 1 too many dice as I only had 1 warrior left (I thought I had 2). So I re-roll my attacks and fail to kill anything. I then re-roll my morale and pass. He asked why I re-rolled morale. I only messed up on the attacks. The roll of 9 on morale should stand. I claimed that since I messed up and rolled too many dice, I was redoing my entire attack phase, including anything that was a direct result of my attacks (including morale). From my experiences, usually when you roll too many dice, I usually just redo the attack phase for that person because you really don't know which one you over-rolled - was it a power weapon attack or a normal one, a S6 attack or normal, an Instant Death one or normal, etc. That's just how I normally play it to avoid any confusion. So we get the judge over and he ruled for me. That was the difference maker.
So this objective remain contested.
I've got my own objective and Linebreaker (my Warlord and contesting troops) for 4 VP's.
My opponent has First Blood and Linebreaker for 2 VP's.
Sorry, but I was so tired I almost fell asleep while writing my report last night. I was typing garbage on my report and could barely read what I was typing. Lol.
Great game. I love how your list has no static firebase the enemy deathstar can assault. Your list is so mobile and so fluid it's like trying to swat at dust.
I like how he asks for rerolls after you pass the morale check. That's ok, but if you rolled two attacks and only had one, you could have rolled one die for a fifty fifty chance to see if that one wound was the correct one. If you did that I would say the morale check stands, but if you have to start over again, then the morale check is rerolled. His way becomes a problem if your unit had a higher initiative and cut someone down before they could strike. Re doing your attacks then forces him to possibly re do his and your morale check has to be re done.m in this case you had a lower initiative, but the same circumstances still stand nd if you redo attacks from the start you redo the morale check.
Great reports, easy to follow pictures and very interesting to see the fliers in action.
To be fair; I would have ruled the same way about re-doing all rolls if you messed up before and caught it - you just have to pretend no nice were rolled after the mistake, even if it sucks sometimes.
Hey Jim great game again buddy and congrats on the win you're a great player and an excellent sport.
I just want to voice my opinion on the re-roll of the leadership. No hard feelings it was the judges call and I accept his ruling. First off the only reason I had him re-roll the attack was because he did roll a 9 on the leadership and it would have made a difference if he hadn't done a wound, I mean if he had passed on like a 5 or something I wouldn't have even cared.
Second Jim did make a mistake for rolling to many dice but then got rewarded with a re-roll of a leadership which didn't seem to fair in my opinion due to the fact that Jims to many attacks didn't effect the two dice he rolled for the leadership. Three it basically was a 50-50 chance for him to hit me which was the same thing as him rolling a 1-3 the wound stand and 4-6 the wound doesn't. I would have still had my guy die if he had hit me with the attack because in my view he had already rolled a wound and shouldn't be rejected that. So i guess basically it was a 1-3 4-6 roll haha. and Fourth if he had failed the re-rolled leadership none of this probably would have even been a problem lol but it just felt like Jim got a get out of jail free card haha. Well Jim thanks again for a great game and I will get you next time.
If you roll the 50-50 there is a 50% chance the Necron does a wound. If you make him reroll everything, then there is a 33% chance the Necron does the wound. Not the same thing.
DarthDiggler wrote:His way becomes a problem if your unit had a higher initiative and cut someone down before they could strike. Re doing your attacks then forces him to possibly re do his and your morale check has to be re done.m in this case you had a lower initiative, but the same circumstances still stand nd if you redo attacks from the start you redo the morale check.
But that wasn't the case. In this case, because he rolled too many attacks, he got to reroll a failed Morale check. I would say that does not set a good example.
white925 wrote:Hey Jim great game again buddy and congrats on the win you're a great player and an excellent sport.
I just want to voice my opinion on the re-roll of the leadership. No hard feelings it was the judges call and I accept his ruling. First off the only reason I had him re-roll the attack was because he did roll a 9 on the leadership and it would have made a difference if he hadn't done a wound, I mean if he had passed on like a 5 or something I wouldn't have even cared.
Second Jim did make a mistake for rolling to many dice but then got rewarded with a re-roll of a leadership which didn't seem to fair in my opinion due to the fact that Jims to many attacks didn't effect the two dice he rolled for the leadership. Three it basically was a 50-50 chance for him to hit me which was the same thing as him rolling a 1-3 the wound stand and 4-6 the wound doesn't. I would have still had my guy die if he had hit me with the attack because in my view he had already rolled a wound and shouldn't be rejected that. So i guess basically it was a 1-3 4-6 roll haha. and Fourth if he had failed the re-rolled leadership none of this probably would have even been a problem lol but it just felt like Jim got a get out of jail free card haha. Well Jim thanks again for a great game and I will get you next time.
No worries. Thanks for the game Frankie. Our games have always been enjoyable and a challenge for me personally.
Yeah, this was just one of the very few times...actually, probably the only time...that we've disagreed in a game. But it's good that it was dealt with very quickly and efficiently. We didn't really argue or anything, just asked the judge to come on over, explained it to him and hear his ruling. It's tough that he ruled it against you, but you took it like a man. Of course if he had ruled it against me, I would have accepted as well. Honestly, I don't feel that there really was a right or wrong in this case, just a case of how different people play it. If the situation was reversed, I would have let you done exactly what I did. So in this case, I think letting the judge decide was the right thing to do.
In any case, that was an awesome and unexpected game. I didn't expect to have that much trouble against your army, but you gave me probably the toughest fight in the tournament (well, that and my game #6 loss against Christian).
DarthDiggler wrote:Great game. I love how your list has no static firebase the enemy deathstar can assault. Your list is so mobile and so fluid it's like trying to swat at dust.
I like how he asks for rerolls after you pass the morale check. That's ok, but if you rolled two attacks and only had one, you could have rolled one die for a fifty fifty chance to see if that one wound was the correct one. If you did that I would say the morale check stands, but if you have to start over again, then the morale check is rerolled. His way becomes a problem if your unit had a higher initiative and cut someone down before they could strike. Re doing your attacks then forces him to possibly re do his and your morale check has to be re done.m in this case you had a lower initiative, but the same circumstances still stand nd if you redo attacks from the start you redo the morale check.
I'm finding mobility to be just as important as shooting or assault. Necrons are good in assault and shooting, though they are not in any means kings of shooting/assault. However, what they are masters of now is the Movement phase. That is what makes them a top-tier army IMO.
To be fair to my opponent, we both didn't catch it until after that battle was done. Actually, because the ruins was blocking my LOS, I still thought I had 2 guys left, but I guess Frankie finally noticed it when he was piling in after combat (or something).
Ricter wrote:
DarthDiggler wrote:His way becomes a problem if your unit had a higher initiative and cut someone down before they could strike. Re doing your attacks then forces him to possibly re do his and your morale check has to be re done.m in this case you had a lower initiative, but the same circumstances still stand nd if you redo attacks from the start you redo the morale check.
But that wasn't the case. In this case, because he rolled too many attacks, he got to reroll a failed Morale check. I would say that does not set a good example.
My philosophy is that if you make a mistake and have to redo something, then anything that is directly affected by your "redo" should be redone as well, whether it is to your benefit or detriment.
In this case, I feel that getting the judge involved was the only course of action (or a roll-off) because there really isn't a right or wrong in this situation.
Ricter wrote:But that wasn't the case. In this case, because he rolled too many attacks, he got to reroll a failed Morale check. I would say that does not set a good example.
My philosophy is that if you make a mistake and have to redo something, then anything that is directly affected by your "redo" should be redone as well, whether it is to your benefit or detriment.
In this case, I feel that getting the judge involved was the only course of action (or a roll-off) because there really isn't a right or wrong in this situation.
You still potentially won a game because you made a mistake and rolled too many dice. This is something I have strong feelings about, since in the end the person who made the mistake benefited from it and it changed the outcome of the game in their favor. I'll leave it at that as to not otherwise derail a quality thread.
I tend to agree that you should not have re-rolled the moral check. It seems like your mistake gave you an advantage in this case and it wasn't really fair.
Although it was a tournament, it looked like a great game which i think is what matters most...
Final game #8, the rematch against Christian's grey knights, coming up tomorrow!
Ricter wrote:
You still potentially won a game because you made a mistake and rolled too many dice. This is something I have strong feelings about, since in the end the person who made the mistake benefited from it and it changed the outcome of the game in their favor. I'll leave it at that as to not otherwise derail a quality thread.
mray01 wrote:Jim,
I tend to agree that you should not have re-rolled the moral check. It seems like your mistake gave you an advantage in this case and it wasn't really fair.
Although it was a tournament, it looked like a great game which i think is what matters most...
On the flip side, say if I had passed morale the first time by a significant margin and then failed it on the re-roll, then I would have to accept the consequences. I guess I don't really look at the end result (whether the "re-do" benefitted me or my opponent), but rather, the entire process (I did something wrong and need to redo my entire part of the process, including any sub-processes dependent on the original action).
And that's why it's good that we just got a third party to arbitrate for us, because we wouldn't see it eye-to-eye just by ourselves. Either that, or do as DarthDiggler suggested - 1-3 accept the non-wounding attack, 4-6 accept the wounding attack - but at that time, we didn't think of this.
Godless-Mimicry wrote:Where I play we do the same thing; you re-roll it all or you let it be. BTW, was Eldrad not his Warlord?
Fuegan was the warlord... Which seems a bit risky, given that he's the wound allocation target at the front of the death star... But I suppose it has an upside if you roll the 'scoring warlord' trait (since he's more potent than Eldrad if he breaks from the unit.)
Godless-Mimicry wrote:Where I play we do the same thing; you re-roll it all or you let it be. BTW, was Eldrad not his Warlord?
DexKivuli wrote:Fuegan was the warlord... Which seems a bit risky, given that he's the wound allocation target at the front of the death star... But I suppose it has an upside if you roll the 'scoring warlord' trait (since he's more potent than Eldrad if he breaks from the unit.)
Correct, Fuegan was the warlord.
I suspect that it is also because he is more likely to kill enemy characters with Smash attacks in a challenge and because he is EW, won't be so easily killed in return by a Pfist or something like that. And if he is facing a unit with a lot of AP2 attacks, just challenge with another character in the harliestar instead.
pretre wrote:Interesting report. The 'avoid the deathstar' tactic seemed to work out for you.
Yeah, play his game and he has the advantage. Make him play your game and the advantage is yours. In this case, my advantage is my mobility. Look, I'm Necdar!
This is probably how I would expand my list. Keep in mind this list isn't set in stone. Also, I do not want to do a full-blown flyer army because I do not believe it would be very fun to play.
NECRON 1750
D-lord - 2+, MSS, ResOrb - 190
5x Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5x Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5x Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5x Warriors - 65
It's been a hectic week. Finally get a chance to read your battle report.
Excellent job against SoB and Biker Marines. Seems like neither list could counter your flyers.
Brutal games against GK and Harliestar. GK did phenomenal shooting your Wraiths and MSU to saturate your Flyers. Shame Destroyer Lord died to Dreadknight.
Excellent game against Frankie. For the most part, you avoided the D-eldar Deathstar and took out easier targets. Once Eldrad and and Fuegan split to contest objectives, the Harlequins were easy targets for the flyers. It was a very close game between you two. After losing his Walkers, Frankie struggled against the flyers.
Loving these Batreps jy2. I may not be posting as much as I used to, but I still get my kicks from reading the reps that come up. Kudos for finding the time so soon after the GT. Will have to try and put similar effort into our Shanghai GT experience.
Christian's MSU Grey Knights beat Sam's Foot Sisters of Battle for a perfect 7-0 record (you can see their game here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469045.page ). After the game against Frankie's Deldar, I am currently 2nd with a 6-1 record. So the very last match of the GT comes down to me against Christian again for all the marbles. We will be playing for 1st and 2nd place. I haven't beaten Christian yet, but there's a first for everything. Though very tired, I was also very much looking forwards to this rematch.
1500 Necrons
I used a slightly tweaked version of my list #3.
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Resurrection Orb, Weave - 190
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/Psybolt Ammo + Searchlights
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Christian has brought a very shooty grey knights army. His type of army is what is refered to in the competitive meta as MSU, or multiple-small-units. Basically, the philosophy behind MSU is to take maximum advantage of min-max army configurations. You minimize the squad size and then maximize the number of squads. This brings increased firepower, increased redundancy and target saturation for the opponent. It really emphasizes efficiency of build and maximal firepower. Its main drawbacks? Weak troops who can't really hold objectives well and a high amount of Kill Points, or in this case, Victory Points for the Purge the Alien scenario.
Back in 5th edition, MSU was considered one of the most competitive army builds. The question now is, how well will it hold up in 6th Edition? Is MSU still king, or one of the kings of competitive 40K? Well, so far, my opponent has been wrecking house with a perfect 7-0 record up til now. But now he's about to run into what may be the future of competitive 6th Edition - my scythe-crons.
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: Wow, this is going to be a very tough game for Christian. The mission was randomly predetermined before our game and we get the mission where his army is weakest....Kill Points (or in this case, Victory Points)! Although I feel somewhat bad that we got this mission (well, just a little), I also feel that you have to be able to deal with it in a tournament environment. Not everything in life is fair. In a tournament, it is all about the matchups and scenarios. You get the sub-optimal matchup and/or scenario, you are just going to have to tough it out and hope for the best. He did it once already in this tournament, winning in a KP mission. Now he's going to have to try to do it again. That is just the risk you take when you bring an extreme army build to a tournament....whether it be a MSU army or a deathstar army or any of the other more extreme armies. Get matched up against your "kryptonite" and the most you can do is to try your best.
Although I feel that I have the advantage in this matchup, I can't really count my opponent out. Firstly, he's already beaten me once in this tournament. Secondly, he won in his other Kill Point game. Third, although MSU armies tend to be KP-heavy, they also usually have enough firepower in their arsenal to beat you despite their KP-handicap. And lastly, this is Christian we are talking about here. If there's anyone who can adapt to an unfavorable condition and overcome, he would be the one. Never count out a cunning and very good general.
Now let me tell you why I think I will win. Firstly, with the exception of my 5-man troops, I have very resilient units. He's got weak ones. Secondly, I will get the alpha strike on him with my flyers (assuming my ground force can withstand his alpha strike on Turn 1). Third, I don't necessarily have to dominate him to win this game. I just need to maintain a slight KP lead. Lastly, I think that I am every bit as cunning as my opponent.
Basically, after a random coin flip, we end up playing on the exact same table as my previous game.
GK deployment. He hides all his henchmen behind the ruins so that all the psybacks are empty.
He puts 1 psyfleman on top of the ruins to get a better line of fire. That is a mistake and I am going to use it against him.
BTW, for his psychic powers, he gets the same 2 exact powers that he got against me the last time we played - re-roll's to hit and 4+ Invuln's for 1 unit.
I deploy 1 unit of wraiths in the opposite corner behind my ruins and out of LOS. I also deploy the annihilation barge and warriors easily out of range of his dreads.
Once again, my strategy here is denial. I am going to force him to come to me.
I try to steal the initiative but without success.
By the ways, every turn Coteaz would successfully cast Prescience on his own unit (that's re-roll's to hit).
He can't see my guys to shoot at them with the exception of his sniper dread, who is unfortunately out of range.
So instead, his dreads run and his vehicles move flat-out.
Necrons 1
Spoiler:
Well, that went pretty well for me. I've just denied his entire army 1 turn of shooty.
Wraiths stay still. Annihilation barge advance to try to draw First Blood.
Warriors make their ways towards the ruins.
My AB draws First Blood as it glances a psyback to death.
GK: 0, Necrons: 2
Grey Knights 2
Spoiler:
GK's advance. Purifiers are running right along my board edge.
I believe every vehicle that cannot fire instead pops smokes, including his 2 dreads on the ground.
On the right flank, he repositions his vehicles to try to get some cover.
The only thing he is able to do with his limited shooting is to kill 1 wraith. His sniper dread does manage to shoot my AB but fails to do anything to it.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
This game is not without controversy.
I only get my wraiths and 1 night scythe in from reserves.
Here I make a seriously blunder. I was planning to multi-assault his 2 purifier rhinos, forgetting that you cannot assault on the turn you come in from reserves.
I also forget about Coteaz's I've Been Expecting You special ability....even though we had talked about it earlier (I blame that on fatigue).
Anyways Coteaz's unit shoots at my wraiths and only causes 1 unsaved Wound despite twin-linked psycannons.
I then call Rob, the TO and judge, over to ask him a question. Rob comes on over and I ask him if the unit in the transport can fire overwatch when my wraiths assault their transport. Rob then reminds me that I cannot assault when coming in from reserves. Doh!
Then Christian starts to resolve I've Been Expecting You on my night scythe, which just happens to be in range of the ability. He proceeds to hit it 4 times on 6's!
But before we could finish the action, it is at this moment where Rob notices something strange and tells us to pause the game while he goes back to check on something. So we wait until he comes back. He then makes a ruling that surprises the both of us.
You can only shoot out of or use psychic shooting attacks through firepoints. Any other special ability that requires LOS cannot be drawn through the firepoints and thusly cannot be used.
Wow. We both were not aware of that. So that means Coteaz could not have used his I've Been Expecting You power to "spot" my wraiths and night scythe.
Which means that they are both ok. That's a bummer for my opponent as he would have most likely taken down my night scythe.
Anyways, we move on. AB gets out of range of his sniper dread. Wraiths spread out and dare his dreadknight to assault them or the AB.
My night scythe stuns his dread and strips it of 2 Hull Points, which means that he should still be able to fire at full capacity next turn after Fortitude cancels out the stunned result.
Due to cover, my AB doesn't do anything with its shooting this turn.
GK: 0, Necrons: 2
Grey Knights 3
Spoiler:
GK movement.
Both unit of purifiers fire at my wraiths and drop 2.
All 3 dreads (and a couple of psybacks) focus on my night scythe. Horrible rolling on his part and evasion on my part leaves my night scythe undamaged.
Psybacks and the dreadknight heavy incinerator wipes out my warriors.
GK: 1, Necrons: 2
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
1 doomscythe comes in here.
The other doomscythe goes after his empty psybacks.
Necron movement. I go after his dreadknight.
Doomscythe wrecks Coteaz's ride.
GK: 1, Necrons: 3
The other doomscythe (gun just fell off but is still active) explodes both psybacks with its deathray.
GK: 1, Necrons: 5
My night scythe wrecks another psyback.
GK: 1, Necrons: 6
Finally, wraiths assault the rhino. Overwatch by the squad inside kills 1 wraith. Wraiths then explode the rhino, killing 1 purifier.
GK: 1, Necrons: 7
My wraithstar fails its assault against the dreadknight.
Grey Knights 4
Spoiler:
GK movement.
One-armed Arnie shunts away from my wraithstar.
Purifiers take out my wraiths. Dreads fire at my doomscythe and manage to only strip it of 1 HP.
GK: 2, Necrons: 7
Arnie flames my warriors and kill all but 1, hidden behind the building and out of LOS.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
My last flyer, my night scythe, automatically comes in from reserves. Wraithstar goes after Arnie and doomscythe heads on over to his purifiers to inflict some pain.
Doomscythe kills 1 from Coteaz's unit and the dread (card is used as crater). Annihilation barge kills 2 from the front purifier unit. Night scythe damages his other dread.
GK: 2, Necrons: 8
Wraithstar charges the dreadknight. He fires his wall of death incinerator and kills 1 wraith.
I still manage to make it into combat, though just barely. He challenges my Warlord and I accept.
Doh!!! He passes his mindshackle test....
....but I've got my ResOrb. Muahahahahahaha.
GK: 2, Necrons: 8
Grey Knights 5
Spoiler:
2-man purifier unit tries to hide behind the wrecked rhino.
His shooting takes off the deathray from my doomscythe.
He also damages my night scythe even after evading.
Finally mindshackle goes off. Christian is quite stunned after I make his dread force weapon himself to death. He did not know that you could do that.
GK: 2, Necrons: 9
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
Not sure what happened here, but I lose a flyer. Did I fall for I've Been Expecting You again?!?
GK: 3, Necrons: 9
Wraithstar goes in for the kill.
My Warlord dies to Overwatch and he doesn't get back up! Doh!!! He gets 2 VP's - 1 for killing my D-lord and another for Slay the Warlord.
GK: 5, Necrons: 9
Wraiths then make it into multi-assault with Coteaz's unit only. I decided not to do the multi-assault.
He casts Hammerhand and only puts 1W on my wraiths. Wraiths then kill 3 purifiers.
Grey Knights 6
Spoiler:
His psyback tries to hide from my flyers. He moves his dread near combat for protection.
I don't believe his shooting does anything (he's still got 2 dreads left).
2-man purifier unit charge into melee. 1 unit of purifiers successfully casts Hammerhand. The other unit doesn't.
He puts 1W on my wraith and I kill 1 hammer purifier, thus wiping out all the purifiers from Coteaz's unit.
GK: 5, Necrons: 10
Necrons 6
Spoiler:
Necron movement.
I shoot down his dread. I also hurt his sniper dread in the ruins.
GK: 5, Necrons: 11
In combat, he takes down another 1 wraith.
Grey Knights 7
Spoiler:
There is a turn 7.
He takes out 1 more wraith. However, I kill Coteaz with a insta-killing wound. With that he concedes. I get +1 VP for also killing his Warlord and he gets +1 VP for Linebreaker.
Wow! I can't believe I won my first (and only) major tournament! Both Christian and I ended up 7-1 but because I beat him in the Finals, I take the title. It kind of sucks that Christian had to play me again after he already beat me, but the way the tournament worked was like this. The tournament organizers, Heroes on Paper up in Stockton, California, were planning for a massive tournament with 200+ people so they prepared for 8 rounds of tournament play. However, because only about 60 people showed up, most people only played 6 games. Only the 4 players with the 4 best records would go on to play an additional 1-2 games to determine 1st-4th place. Why do we have to do that? Because of the prize support. Basically, 3rd and 4th both wins a Space Marine Mega Force set each and 1st and 2nd both win a new 2000-pt army (though the values of those armies differ between 1st and 2nd). So the first 6 games were equivalent to "regular season" games and the last 2 games were equivalent to single-elimination "playoff" games.
As far as my army goes, I am very happy with its performance. I think this tournament may be a wakeup call to how flyers have changed the game. They can be really dominating, especially if you don't have the tools to handle them. Part of the reason may be that people aren't really prepared to face them yet. The other part is currently, there isn't really many options to handle flyers besides massed AT or other flyers. And right now, in my opinion, Doom Scythes are king. They are just so unbelievably good that they are easily the MVP's of my games. They consistently performed well and soaked up an incredible amount of firepower in all my games. In my honest opinion, the more doom scythes you have, the less challenging the game becomes.
I'd like to thank my fellow teammates from Game Kastle ( http://www.gamekastle.com/ ) for showing up, the Team Zero Comp guys from Frontline Gaming ( http://www.frontlinegaming.org/ ) for giving us such great competition and Rob Pace and Heroes on Paper ( http://www.heroesonpaper.com/ ) for doing an awesome job for the first ever 6th Ed. Grand Tournament - the Golden Throne GT. Thanks guys, and I will see you next year.
Also, I won a brand new 2000-pt army! Now the only question is, should I get it now or should I wait for the new Chaos Space Marines to come out. Hmmm....
Really enjoyable series of reps. Layout etc us pretty much down to a tee with great anslysis.
Was it me though or did that GT have fairly limited/sparse terrain? Got the same impression from amerikons and letats reps too.
Did you find it made much if difference? Would you guys have liked more or even less from a strictly objective pov?
On my way to take on a 10-flyer scythe-cron army at Frontlinegaming! I'll finish the GT report tonight.
Ratius wrote:Really enjoyable series of reps. Layout etc us pretty much down to a tee with great anslysis.
Was it me though or did that GT have fairly limited/sparse terrain? Got the same impression from amerikons and letats reps too.
Did you find it made much if difference? Would you guys have liked more or even less from a strictly objective pov?
The GT didn't have enough terrain. Everyone was complaining about this. Part of the reason why was because the TO's storefront got broken into a week before the tournament. This set them back and they were not able to produce the type/amount of terrain that they had wanted.
Personally, the lack of terrain did not affect my army that much because my army does not rely on cover, only LOS-blocking terrain. But for the sake of fairness, I would prefer a more standardized 25% of terrain.
I guess I don't understand the 8th round then. Or then why even if he loses there isn't a 9th round because they each would be 7-1 and have beaten eachother.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not overly important just interested in the scoring method. Soft scores maybe?
Red Corsair wrote:Ah, OK. That would be the only sensible answer I guess. That's an interesting method for sure. Sucks to be Christian lol.
Indeed. I've been part of an MTG tourney that was run in the same exact fashion. I went undefeated and ended up in the finals against someone I had already played against and beaten. I wasn't too thrilled about that but that's how some things are run.
Red Corsair wrote:Ah, OK. That would be the only sensible answer I guess. That's an interesting method for sure. Sucks to be Christian lol.
Indeed. I've been part of an MTG tourney that was run in the same exact fashion. I went undefeated and ended up in the finals against someone I had already played against and beaten. I wasn't too thrilled about that but that's how some things are run.
Yea I personally think it's a poor way to run an event in any game but especially in a grueling tabletop tournament that takes so much out of you. Plus it looks bad.
I don't think it's a terrible way to run things to be honest. The first 5 or 6 matches are like the group stage and then rounds 7 and 8 are the knock out rounds. It's sort of like a hybrid double elimination tourney in that respect.
All 3 dreads (and a couple of psybacks) focus on my night scythe. Horrible rolling on his part and evasion on my part leaves my night scythe undamaged.
When 3 Heavy Supports slots and 2 Dedicated transports fail to do any damage to a 100pt. dedicated transport that has the only rule in the game that keeps its occupants safe when you blow it up, you know there is problems with this game. I'm not one to pull the trigger, tie the noose, or push the button but IMOGW has produced a product that they KNOW they have no intention of leaving in its current form until it makes enough money from the masses and needs smacked upside the head.
I don't think I need to read anymore of this battlerep. The guys over at frontline gaming as well as the numberous battlereps here have shown without a shadow of a doubt, you bring flyers (preferably Necrons who have gratuitous rules) or you'll play at a huge disadvantage. Matter of fact, in 3 turns of the final round, JY2 has practically used only 2 units of his entire army, is winning, and is in dominating postion with the rest of his flyers yet to come...
Coteaz's rule is similar to the contraversy over the "mind in the machine" issue for necrons. It basically made all powers not a routine shooting attack unusable while in a transport. We've had this discussed to death so many times on YMDC back in 5th, I'm surprised they didn't really fix the wording.
Too tired right now. Will get to reponses tomorrow.
And no, I did not participate in the "Milk" challenge against Reece today because 1) he is allergic to milk and 2) they already shipped out Cron Air to their customer.
I'm pretty sure you can't force weapon activate with MSS
It's definately hotly been debated before on YMDC and general concensus is that you get the AP value and strength of the weapon but as your model has to make a psy test to activate it (which requires warp charge) and you don't get to use their psy powers anywhere in the MSS rules. The weapon doesn't choose to activate the power, the model does, (BRB specifically says "HE can immediately choose to activate it" p37) so it does not allow you to use force activation as MSS specifically states properties of the "Melee weapon" (necron FAQ), not the psyker.
You do benefit from other things such as reroll to hit from say lightning claws, or concussion from hammers, or armorbane from chainfists but you don't get to activate their force weapons.
If you could, then it may be said then that you can cast hammerhand on them too when they fail a MSS but that's just not how it's been played as one is a psyker ability and the other is a weapon ability.
SabrX wrote:It's been a hectic week. Finally get a chance to read your battle report.
Excellent job against SoB and Biker Marines. Seems like neither list could counter your flyers.
Brutal games against GK and Harliestar. GK did phenomenal shooting your Wraiths and MSU to saturate your Flyers. Shame Destroyer Lord died to Dreadknight.
Excellent game against Frankie. For the most part, you avoided the D-eldar Deathstar and took out easier targets. Once Eldrad and and Fuegan split to contest objectives, the Harlequins were easy targets for the flyers. It was a very close game between you two. After losing his Walkers, Frankie struggled against the flyers.
Congratulations winning your first GT!
Thanks. Too bad you couldn't make it. Everyone had a great time.
Ironically, the 2 armies that I thought would have a harder time against my flyers - biker space marines and Frankie's Harlistar - actually took them down with relative ease considering the rather limited amount of AT they had. And the armies with the better anti-air shooting - Sisters, MSU grey knights and Trent's scythe-crons - actually had the tougher time considering how much shooting they had.
Lukus83 wrote:Loving these Batreps jy2. I may not be posting as much as I used to, but I still get my kicks from reading the reps that come up. Kudos for finding the time so soon after the GT. Will have to try and put similar effort into our Shanghai GT experience.
Thanks. I'd wish you luck in the GT, but I don't think you really need it. It's the other guys who will probably need it. Barring extreme dice, you are going to trash your opponents!
Red Corsair wrote:I don't really understand how someone who is 7-0 plays someone who they already beat who is 6-1 for 1st and second place?
First 6 games were to determine the 4 top players. These were the "regular season" games. Then the top 4 continued on to the "playoffs", which is basically a 2-game single elimination tournament. Yeah, it's weird that Christian had to play me again for 1st once again, but in real life tournies, these things happen. You can lose to an opponent in normal play only to encounter him once again in post-season play.
Painnen wrote:All 3 dreads (and a couple of psybacks) focus on my night scythe. Horrible rolling on his part and evasion on my part leaves my night scythe undamaged.
When 3 Heavy Supports slots and 2 Dedicated transports fail to do any damage to a 100pt. dedicated transport that has the only rule in the game that keeps its occupants safe when you blow it up, you know there is problems with this game. I'm not one to pull the trigger, tie the noose, or push the button but IMOGW has produced a product that they KNOW they have no intention of leaving in its current form until it makes enough money from the masses and needs smacked upside the head.
I don't think I need to read anymore of this battlerep. The guys over at frontline gaming as well as the numberous battlereps here have shown without a shadow of a doubt, you bring flyers (preferably Necrons who have gratuitous rules) or you'll play at a huge disadvantage. Matter of fact, in 3 turns of the final round, JY2 has practically used only 2 units of his entire army, is winning, and is in dominating postion with the rest of his flyers yet to come...
Yeah, I believe that is going to be the evolution of the game. Milk flyers for all they are worth until they start rolling out the anti-flyer weaponry. But flyers will still be good. They just won't be as scary over time as they are right now.
This was for sure a bad matchup for Christian. But honestly, MSU armies have done well despite playing in "handicap" matches such as Kill Points. That is because they usually have the ability to just overwhelm the opponent before they can even get any offense going, no matter the mission.
Which is why I like my army. It isn't just a simple point-&-click-&-win army. You actually have to play it with a little finesse and use strategy. In this case, my strategy of denial was what ultimately led to my victory. Deny the opponent his greatest strength - his shooting in this case - and you are already at an advantage.
sudojoe wrote:Coteaz's rule is similar to the contraversy over the "mind in the machine" issue for necrons. It basically made all powers not a routine shooting attack unusable while in a transport. We've had this discussed to death so many times on YMDC back in 5th, I'm surprised they didn't really fix the wording.
It is exactly the same thing (also with Njal's Lord of Tempests special ability). Back in 5th, they FAQ'd it so that you couldn't use firepoints to draw LOS for specials rules such as these to end those controversies. Looks like they may need to do it again for 6th as it is a very subtle point that most people (like both Christian and I) probably will not catch.
sudojoe wrote:I'm pretty sure you can't force weapon activate with MSS
It's definately hotly been debated before on YMDC and general concensus is that you get the AP value and strength of the weapon but as your model has to make a psy test to activate it (which requires warp charge) and you don't get to use their psy powers anywhere in the MSS rules. The weapon doesn't choose to activate the power, the model does, (BRB specifically says "HE can immediately choose to activate it" p37) so it does not allow you to use force activation as MSS specifically states properties of the "Melee weapon" (necron FAQ), not the psyker.
You do benefit from other things such as reroll to hit from say lightning claws, or concussion from hammers, or armorbane from chainfists but you don't get to activate their force weapons.
If you could, then it may be said then that you can cast hammerhand on them too when they fail a MSS but that's just not how it's been played as one is a psyker ability and the other is a weapon ability.
I believe the consensus of most gamers - including myself, Christian's own Zero Comp teammates and the TO and judge presiding over the game (at various times) - is that it works. Just like if you have Preferred Enemy, you would have to re-roll the wound rolls of '1'. The weapon itself doesn't have the ability, but the character possessing the weapon does. The same would apply to force weapons. The ability that character has (i.e. furious charge, preferred enemy, force weapons) is passed onto the Mindshackled attack.
From a fluff perspective, it makes sense as well. Mindshackles are controlling the opponents mind and forcing him to kill himself with his most deadly attacks without any holding back.
Hammerhand doesn't work because it has to be done at the beginning of the phase. Once they attack themselves, then it is already too late to cast Hammerhand. Force weapons, however, are activated when the target is wounded.
But that brings up a tactical tip - if you don't want to force weapon yourself to death from MSS, just cast Hammerhand at the beginning of combat. Then you won't have the Warp Charge available to force yourself to death.
tetsuo666 wrote:Good job Jy2
But as you say flyers create a big disadvantage for army which can't have DCA :-/
Thanks....but I'm not quite sure I follow your comment. Flyers create a big disadvantage for an army which can't have Death Cult Assassins?
Congrats Jy2! Strong list, good strategy and cool thinking, well deserved. This was a great read and got me motivated to go to the smackdown tournament next month (never been to a tournament before).
Judges at tournies, much like refs for sports, will always get some calls 'wrong' and the terrain was effected by a break in. I'm sure it'll be much improved next year.
In any case, congratulations to Jy2 on his first tourny victory. Nobody can say you haven't beaten the best anymore.
Texx wrote: Congrats Jy2! Strong list, good strategy and cool thinking, well deserved. This was a great read and got me motivated to go to the smackdown tournament next month (never been to a tournament before).
Thanks!
You should definitely give it (the tournament) a try. I did and had a lot of fun. Just set your goal as having fun and meeting new people and you can't lose! And if you win, that's just a bonus.
Canadian 5th wrote: Judges at tournies, much like refs for sports, will always get some calls 'wrong' and the terrain was effected by a break in. I'm sure it'll be much improved next year.
In any case, congratulations to Jy2 on his first tourny victory. Nobody can say you haven't beaten the best anymore.
Yeah, there are a lot of judgement calls in these games because the rules are not always crystal clear. Sometimes the judges get them right. Sometimes they don't. But usually, it's both...the party the judge sides with thinks he made the right call and the party on the short end of the stick thinks he made the wrong call. Lol.
But I think judges are necessary in these types of events and that both parties need to respect his decisions whether they think it is right or not.
As for beating the best, I never really thought about that. To me, everyone is beatable. I've certainly lost my fair share and so have all my opponents I'm sure. I just enjoy the challenge of playing against good players.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: The Coteaz call isn't surprising as it has always been that he can't use the ability from inside a vehicle.
But last I looked Mindshackles just makes them do D3+1 hits against themself, not you control them, so don't think you can activate his Force Weapon.
Hmmm....seems like it is not a consensus whether force weapons are affected my MSS.
Anyways, I want to thank sudojoe for opening a thread discussing this issue in YMDC.
Yeah, I don't consider a list balanced unless it has some form of 'DCA'. And unfortunately for most of the armies out there, DCA will be scarce in the early stages of 6E. It'll be a real tough time for them against scythe-crons.
1 overlord with semp. weave and tachyon arrow. 135
5 warriors. 65
1 night scythe. 100
10 warriors. 130
1 triarch stalked with heavy Gauss cannon. 165
5 deathmarks. 95
3 canoptek wraiths with 3 whipcoils. 135
3 tomb blades with Gauss boasters. 60
1 monolith. 200
1 canoptek spyder with fab claws. 60
1 annihilation barge with Gauss cannon. 90
1 annihilation barge with Gauss cannon. 90
1 doomsday ark. 175
Your list is illegal. It's got too many Heavy Support units. You can only get 3 unless you get to 2000pts (then you can go double FOC's to get more heavy supports).
Also, the list is really light on troops. You should get more troops in. I recommend at least 3 troops at 1500. If you get rid of 2 of your heavy supports, that shouldn't be a problem. My recommendation would be to dump the spyder and either the monolith or doomsday ark and then use those points to add 1 more unit of troops and whatever else you want.
1 overlord with semp. weave and tachyon arrow. 135
5 warriors. 65
1 night scythe. 100
10 warriors. 130
1 triarch stalked with heavy Gauss cannon. 165
5 deathmarks. 95
3 canoptek wraiths with 3 whipcoils. 135
3 tomb blades with Gauss boasters. 60
1 monolith. 200
1 canoptek spyder with fab claws. 60
1 annihilation barge with Gauss cannon. 90
1 annihilation barge with Gauss cannon. 90
1 doomsday ark. 175
this list suffers from what I like to referrer to as "just a little bit of everything" disease.
Also, it doesn't seem to have any clear direction... may want to think about what you want your army to do well, and build around that idea to best support it.
1 overlord with semp. weave and tachyon arrow. 135
5 warriors. 65
1 night scythe. 100
10 warriors. 130
1 triarch stalked with heavy Gauss cannon. 165
5 deathmarks. 95
3 canoptek wraiths with 3 whipcoils. 135
3 tomb blades with Gauss boasters. 60
1 monolith. 200
1 canoptek spyder with fab claws. 60
1 annihilation barge with Gauss cannon. 90
1 annihilation barge with Gauss cannon. 90
1 doomsday ark. 175
this list suffers from what I like to referrer to as "just a little bit of everything" disease.
Also, it doesn't seem to have any clear direction... may want to think about what you want your army to do well, and build around that idea to best support it.
I fixed that and I have a better list than my old one.
Destroyer lord mss and weave 160
5 immortals 85
1 night scythe 100
5 immortals 85
1 night scythe 100
10 immortals 170
5 deathmarks 95
6 wraiths with 3 coils and 1 PC 245
6 wraiths with 2 coils 230
6 wraiths with 2 coils 230
Necron123 wrote: I fixed that and I have a better list than my old one.
Destroyer lord mss and weave 160
5 immortals 85
1 night scythe 100
5 immortals 85
1 night scythe 100
10 immortals 170
5 deathmarks 95
6 wraiths with 3 coils and 1 PC 245
6 wraiths with 2 coils 230
6 wraiths with 2 coils 230
Why not just drop a single Immortal from the unit of 10, as well as removing the Particle Caster, so you can afford to give all three units of Wraiths 3 Coils each?
Also, not so sure about a single unit of Deathmarks with no Despair-tek support... I'd be more tempted to replace them with an Annihilation Barge.
Necron123 wrote: I fixed that and I have a better list than my old one.
Destroyer lord mss and weave 160
5 immortals 85
1 night scythe 100
5 immortals 85
1 night scythe 100
10 immortals 170
5 deathmarks 95
6 wraiths with 3 coils and 1 PC 245
6 wraiths with 2 coils 230
6 wraiths with 2 coils 230
Why not just drop a single Immortal from the unit of 10, as well as removing the Particle Caster, so you can afford to give all three units of Wraiths 3 Coils each?
Also, not so sure about a single unit of Deathmarks with no Despair-tek support... I'd be more tempted to replace them with an Annihilation Barge.
I will take your advise on the 3 coils but not with the Deathmarks. Annihilation barges have only one more gun than a night scythe. Deathmarks are meant for terminators.
While I have not used Deathmarks before, one thing I do know is that I love the annihilation barges. They are such a good buy for only $.90. With the post-doom scythe FAQ, I think I may be running 2 AB's and 1 doom scythe in my future lists.
In any case, your list is pretty solid. Most armies will have problems dealing with that many wraiths at 1500.
Necron123 wrote: I fixed that and I have a better list than my old one.
Destroyer lord mss and weave 160
5 immortals 85
1 night scythe 100
5 immortals 85
1 night scythe 100
10 immortals 170
5 deathmarks 95
6 wraiths with 3 coils and 1 PC 245
6 wraiths with 2 coils 230
6 wraiths with 2 coils 230
Why not just drop a single Immortal from the unit of 10, as well as removing the Particle Caster, so you can afford to give all three units of Wraiths 3 Coils each?
Also, not so sure about a single unit of Deathmarks with no Despair-tek support... I'd be more tempted to replace them with an Annihilation Barge.
I will take your advise on the 3 coils but not with the Deathmarks. Annihilation barges have only one more gun than a night scythe. Deathmarks are meant for terminators.
Granted, I myself have never tried running a vanilla unit of 5 Deathmarks (I've only ever run them with attached Despair-teks, and when I drop that squad on the table, you know SOMETHING is gonna die), so it may well work out (at very least, you might be able to force a pinning test).
I guess I would just remind you that the Annihilation Barge has a bit more lastablilty, in that it has higher AV and you'll be able to use it immediately, unlike an army the relies entirely on Scythes for it's heavy weapons.
Regardless, I'll echo jy2 and say it's a decent Wraight-Wing build, so you should be able to hold your own well enough.
!!! Poor guy had the worst luck I had ever seen, it didn't stop there all match either rofl.
! Coteaz then makes me re-roll and I fail the second time around. 
This was a great read and got me motivated to go to the smackdown tournament next month (never been to a tournament before).
