Okay guys and girls, who is the top tactician, is it the quite stealthy Corax, the siege expert who was famed as the best at taking down fortresses Perturbo, the defensive rogal dorn, the majestic Sanguinius, the grim warfare of Curze, the speartips of Horrus, the thinking outside of the box Ferrus Mannis, the overlapping perfectionist Fulgrim?
Who do you chaps think it the best tactical genius. Not strongest, not best with a sword, the best Tactician, this includes Battle plans, Void warfare, strategic mind, deployment, countering the enemy.
Alpharius, due to poor writing. His theme is 'not an idiot like the rest of the Primarchs.' He's regarded as a genius for extremely basic ideas such as.... attacking the enemy when they don't think you're going to attack.
why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?
why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?
He was a great stratagist and logistical genius...
Though I hate him (Luther was the true leader of the Dark Angels!) the Lion is the best tactician. He is very versatile with his troops as well as good a thinking of things on the spot. His strategies are not focused in on one field (i.e. Ravenguard stealth).
Ultramarine hate is SOO cool guys. It's not like Robute did anything important. You know, it's perfectly ok to like the Ultramarines without being a fanboy.
The Codex Astartes has had a major impact on the Space Marines and their tactics. Sure, you don't need them, but they've proven to be an effective foundation for those who follow them.
And numbers? Really? The Space Wolves and Black Templars have more than 1,000 marines, so before people start accusing the Ultramarines of having excess numbers they really ought to do their homework.
Additionally, the Ultramar system wasn't some sort of easy thing to establish. It really is a testament to the skill of the Ultramarines that they can maintain those planets while still gaining incredible honors in the field. It doesn't make them better than other chapters, but it is harder to do.
why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?
Dorn and Guilliman's honor are separate entities, it's not anyone else's fault that you can't keep them straight. Dorn almost destroyed his own legion and turned into a massive masochist after Terra. Guilliman took charge when the rest of his brothers turned to their own affairs and didn't care for the galaxy at large or disappeared.
You have to remember that every legion tended to have different specialities in how they fought. Russ was the enforcer, he was the original marine on marine combat master. Fulgrim was perfection and he and his legion specialized and mastered their arts, but perfection cannot cope with imperfection that is war. Dorn is a master of defensive warfare. Perterabo is siege warfare. Mortation was foot soldiers. Ferrus Manus was vehicular warfare. Vulkan was tech. Corax was stealth. Curze was terror. Lorgar was fanatisism. Angron was rage. The Lion was very tactical but also very ruthless and paranoid. Horus was charismatic and had the mind for campaigns. Guilliman was intelligent and had the mind for details. Alpharius/Omegadon subterfuge.
In my opinion it comes down to Lion'El, Guilliman or Horus. Lion'El is shown constantly planning and throwing away idea after idea. Horus is warmaster, enough said. Gulliman was basically the Sun Tsu of the lot. He also challenged a lot of ideals that marines held, like making it ok to retreat. His Codex documented the depth of tactical applications of marine's strength and firepower. The other primarchs tend to be too focused towards one thing or another to be called overall best tactician.
Ultramarine hate is SOO cool guys. It's not like Robute did anything important. You know, it's perfectly ok to like the Ultramarines without being a fanboy.
why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?
He was a great stratagist and logistical genius...
This goes to Lion, fluff states as much.
Where? I have heard it a lot, but I would like to see some proof. I mean he is my favourite primarch, but still...
What. I voted first for Perturabo, but Alpharius/ Omegon was a close second. I don't understand how Lion was a great tactician. Granted, the primarchs were all awesome at everything (except emotion/behavior) but I thought the Lion was a CC type of guy. Ya know, killing monsters and being noble.
Being a close combat guy doesn't mean a person isn't a great tactician. Sun Tzu and Miyamoto Musashi, both some of the greatest tacticians of their time were also all close combat oriented fighters.
The Lion still understood how to position his troops so they would be used best. He still understood logistics and everything else it takes to be a great tactician.
I agree with Buttons, the Lion is often said to be a tactical genius. There must be some examples. With Guilliman, we have a whole book showing how he took an extremely gakky situation and came out on top. Just based on their reputations, I'd say that there's a three-way tie between Horus, Guilliman, and the Lion. I'm not sure that Horus and Jonson have been adequately portrayed as geniuses, however.
Manchu wrote:I agree with Buttons, the Lion is often said to be a tactical genius. There must be some examples. With Guilliman, we have a whole book showing how he took an extremely gakky situation and came out on top. Just based on their reputations, I'd say that there's a three-way tie between Horus, Guilliman, and the Lion. I'm not sure that Horus and Jonson have been adequately portrayed as geniuses, however.
Yeah, the Black Library broke the 'show don't tell' rule. Horus is described as some sort of diabolical genius, but he just seems like a temperamental 15 year old in a demigod's body.
^ That. But to a certain extent, every single primarch was a great tactician. It was bred in them on purpose, and also due to the worlds they were scattered to they gained a specific area of genius, Are we talking about open warfare or sieges or what?
Even Lion might need specialists. (assumed tactician in general) From what Roadkill said, Guilliman and Lion have very close tactical mindsets, but I still prefer Alpharius/ Omegon.
I would think asking who is best in overall tactics automatically isolates the primarchs with specialities from being the answer. They are geared more or less toward certain tactics for certain situations and fall short. having anything mentioned on their tactical geniues in other areas or rather in general sacrificed to further drive the point that they are brilliant at their preferred methods.
Wolfsblood wrote:Dorn. Even Horus said he was the most brilliant and best tactician he had ever seen.
Just because he mentioned he was the best he had observed doesn't mean he said he was better than him.
Unless I'm missing a direct quote where Horus states he was outmatched or on even terms.
Guilliman was a master strategist, ie take this city and this one let them keep that and oh look the planets ours, and if not I'll try plans b through z
Lion was a master tactician, as in right we'll draw them in then you guys hidden over ther can sneak be hind them and detonate their armour support and we'll get the rest in a cross fire
Sorry simplistic examples I know
But Horus was almost as good as the two masters at both things
Goundry has it right. There is a solid difference between tactics and strategy. Strategy is the big picture- how to win a war- and tactics are based around the more immediate battle- how to win a firefight.
Guilliman's greatest strength has always been his logistical genius- logistics is a fancy word for strategy. His tactical prowess on the other hand has never been shown to really be anything beyond average for a Primarch, though.
I'd say Horus, personally. Hearsay states that the Lion is the best tactician, but he has zero feats to back it up. The one fight I ever saw him in ended with him fighting like an autistic tiger with Kurze.
Although Guilliman is THE tactician, I would hazard that Russ shows more brilliance. As the Emperors executioner he had refined his Astartes slaying abilities long before Roboute and co were all shocked that some of their members were contemplating killing other Space Marines.
DarthMarko wrote:THEN Alpharius !!! funny Angron got two votes , well rush & kill 'em all is some sort of tactic
Sometimes the simplest solution is the best solution.
Sometimes - yes , not in war....
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Rochronos wrote:Although Guilliman is THE tactician, I would hazard that Russ shows more brilliance. As the Emperors executioner he had refined his Astartes slaying abilities long before Roboute and co were all shocked that some of their members were contemplating killing other Space Marines.
BlaxicanX wrote:Goundry has it right. There is a solid difference between tactics and strategy. Strategy is the big picture- how to win a war- and tactics are based around the more immediate battle- how to win a firefight.
Guilliman's greatest strength has always been his logistical genius- logistics is a fancy word for strategy. His tactical prowess on the other hand has never been shown to really be anything beyond average for a Primarch, though.
I'd say Horus, personally. Hearsay states that the Lion is the best tactician, but he has zero feats to back it up. The one fight I ever saw him in ended with him fighting like an autistic tiger with Kurze.
Dont forget he fought a numerically superior Sons of Horus force and won
Why did 8 people choose Russ?
'Raaagh! Beer! Hot woman! Raaagh Blood for the... Err, Emperor! Wolfcharge! Wolfsmash! Clawslash! Raagh!' Makes you a good tactician? Oh my..
Its Guilliman, if you hate ultramarines or not, it is him.
FACE IT
Am sorry, but Gulliman is the logistics guy, he wins you wars.
Horus is the diplomat, he wins you wars without a shot.
The Lion is where Tactics is, He wins you battles.
The old fluff, about the most wins, had Horus at n°1 ( because he used his brethren but was said to leave the ground work to others ) and The Lion and ?Russ? ( IIRC ) close to this.
thenoobbomb wrote:Russ isnt a tactician. He may win battles, but tactical? 'Nope'
Except that winning battles to the extent Russ, or any Primarch can achieve requires tactics, which is the immediate application of battlefield experience and knowledge within an immediate conflict. Russ' tactics would resemble a wolf's low and predatory cunning, but tactics he has. Otherwise he wouldnt be winning wars in the Emperor's name. Now if you're talking about being a strategist, then we can say Russ is probably most definitely not a good strategist, as he is often depicted as too impetuous and headstrong for strategy.
As others have mentioned, I think people are mistaking tactics for strategy and vice versa...
I would say it's a toss-up between Horus and Guilliman.
Horus and his Lunar Wolves came up top in the overall in the Great Crusade and Ultramarines second, but Ultramarines (Guilliman) took more time and care in the aftermath of military efforts, so he "may" (hypothetically) have come out top if he would have been as ruthless as Horus.
With the exception of the Luna Wolves, no Legion conquered as many worlds, or conquered worlds as fast, or left conquered worlds in such good state during the Great Crusade, as the Ultramarines. Whenever Guilliman liberated a world, he would not move on until he had set up a self-sufficient defense system, and left advisors behind to create industry, set up trade routes with the rest of the Imperium, and form a government whose first concern would always be the well-being of the people.
Also, according to the 3rd Edition Space Marine Codex
Roboute was a prodigy, growing fast in both body and intellect. By age ten, he had mastered every subject the wisest men of Macragge could teach him, and his insights into matters of history, philosophy, and science often stunned his elders. However, his greatest talents were as a military leader.
So if you think Guilliman's greatest talent was.. for example.. politics, diplomacy or logistics, keep in mind that his military leadership-skills surpassed his other talents at all times.
Russ had battle cunning or more like predatorial instict and nobody can top on the battlefield ( that's why he had a role of executioner ) - BUT mother of them ALL was HORUS LUPERCAL (guy who become warmaster , for Chris sake)
As others have mentioned, I think people are mistaking tactics for strategy and vice versa...
Welcome to the world of the armchair general.
I actually agree with Manchu. The Dark Angel's Codex (I think that's where it is) states Johnson is a tactical genius above the other Primarchs, but I don't really feel that fluff is supported as much as Robot Gulliverman (and btw, I do hate the super special flowers that are the Ultramarines).
Of course. this ignores that the tactical ability of the Imperium at large, and 40k in general, seems to be quite lacking. I mean, the moment a flank becomes a brilliant idea (and that you didn't notice you're being flanked by a Titan...), you've thrown out the book of realism, especially since the words tactics and strategy get used so interchangeably.
And in that sense I find this question kind of blarg.
To be fair, it is most often the absurdity of the 40K setting that confuses strategy (e.g. how to conquer a planet) with tactics (e.g. how a 10-man unit adapts smartly to changing circumstances) because planets here are often invaded by 10 people (or defended by even less.. see Maugan Ra's exploits against Tyrandis )
So the distinction is - as far as 40K goes - is usually mute...
Ok I am not a smurf fan boy, but if the the OP is basing his poll on pure fluff then although Robute is a true all around general he was more the consummate diplomat than a tactician...
Based on pure fluff I would say that Khan was the most pure tactician of all of them sure he was all about hit and run, and lightening attacks but if you look at it from a tactician point hit & run takes a whole lot more plan and strategy than the straight on standard battle plan.... That is why still today the Apache and guerrilla fighting is considered one of the most dangerous forms of combat tactically...
I say it is definately the Lion. LordofHats is right, the DA codex says that he is a supreme tactictian.
and to everyone asking where are his stories of tactical prowess? Guilliman and some other primarchs got a lot more story time. But there are still a few stories that show how great a tactician that Lion El' Johnson was, particularly the story of the Lion and the Wolf.
Where Russ wanted demanded that he lead an immediate attack, he was denied. Lion el'Johnson had spent days gathering intel on the enemy headquarters and had planned a detailed assault. When the Dark Angels went to battle, they took the fortress with ease and very few casualties. Russ watched from the ground as the Lion killed the rebel leader on top of high walls of the fortress.
Its a shame the Great Khan isn't really mentioned as a great strategist, especially since he is based on my personal favorite historical strategist Genghis.
So far it seems the blue flower is getting more votes, because he had a major triumph with the fall of the chaos armies when the emperor went down, this shows me how strong of a character he is, not that hes some great strategist or battle commander. He manned up huge, no doubt about it, but Ive seen some arguments and i'm really convinced that Horus is the best of them all, from a diplomat stand point, Lion from the battlefield point of view, and Guilly from and all round stand point. However i do not know much about Khan, but it seems like he could be best of everyone to be honest.
I was under the impression that the Ultramarines where sent to conquer the entire South and Eastern part of the Galaxy, while all the other primarchs dick around in the western/north part.
Wasn't it implied in Know No Fear that the Ultramarines had conquered the biggest part of the Imperium at that point? That the Ultramarines had swelled to be the biggest Legion?
You can't conquer the most and grow the most without being a genius in all forms of Warfare, imo.
The "whose best" argument has been made before, Id say there all more or less equal.
Think for a second, say we pit Magnus the red against Angron in each of their expertise.
Obviously, in a purely psychic war, Magnus would win (partly cause Angron doesn't have powers), however, i a purely close combat fight, Angron will obviously win.
Let me rattle through them like this:
Horus: He is the guy who uses every guy he has to achieve victory. Always described as "using all his brothers) he doesn't just run in and go smash with his armies approach, He would (pre heresy) get The Alpha legion to undermine the command structure, or the Night lords to terrify the whole defense force into being easier to kill. Every Tool is used, not just the ones he likes.
Fulgrim: Many wouldnt think of his as being tactical but you have to remember, he did extinguish the Laer within a month. His tactic is for not just the people you train to be armed well and trained well, but to arm them and train them really well. Once thats done he tells them where to go and leads from the front, ensuring that his troops do their job.
Perturbo: As the seige expert, he is pretty tactical. You have to know where to send your troops at what point, after all.
Mortarion: His legion specialize in attrition warfare, therefore its key to know how to wear people down , attacking while sustaining minimum casulties and all that.
Angron: You need to know where to send your troops, even the best close combat fighter is useless if away from an enemy he can fight.
Lion: He seems capable of tactical thinking, and has done so on many occasions.
Alpharius Omeagon: Very tactical and expert in creating complicated plans of Tzeentch like proportions.
Vulkan: Never really read in to Vulkan, but as a techie, Id say he is capable commander.
Corax: In the books I read, Corax seems very cleaver, factoring in percentages and probabilities into his plans and predicting his enemies moves before they know, he is definatly tactical.
Ferrus: Towards the end, not really but before that he seemed a very tactically sound legion, as analytical machine marines they know how to approach a situation. Plus, when Ferrus absorbed the dragoshard through his hands, I reckon he had part of its tactical knowledge imprinted into his memories.
Lorgar: As the only primarch who doesnt want to be a warrior, Lorgar's skill isnt combat or low alt strikes, however his skill is to inspire people to greatness and his devotion means that he will always try his best.
Magnus: with powers like that, he could probably see every move years before its time. He knew what to do.
Dorn: Defence expert, You need to know how to defend an obstacle or your useless at your role.
Konrad Curze: He had a good Idea, to stop people from being tempted, make them fear you. That is a good tactic.
Kahn: A few times I heard of him being described as reckless and bloodthirsty (though that could well be just memories from the Dornian Heresy. But he must be tactical to stage lightning strikes like he did
Sanguinius: I remember hearing Horus say that Sanguinius should of been made warmaster and not him (this was on Davin) and I also Imagined his tactics to be pretty simple of effective.
Guilliman: He is tactical, no doubt about it, no other primarch managed to sustain minimal damage during the heresy, get "distracted" for long enough to not realist something was going on at Terra or turn up to fight far too late in order to help but still arrive in time to wrte a book that you dictate everybody must follow despite the fact it severely weakened the space marines forever. His exploits during the great crusade were pretty basic. They just come across as the biggest, most pompous of the Primarchs, like the smug older brother who has the biggest room that your always told that you should be more like whilst every time he winds you up you get told off for shouting at him. He is tactical simply because he manages to grab fame without putting in a lot of effort.
Russ: He does have a tactic, like Angron, your CC troops are pointless if you are out of combat.
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
thenoobbomb wrote:Russ isnt a tactician. He may win battles, but tactical? 'Nope'
The Codex Astartes says different.
And I quote:
" Many of the most brilliant minds of the age contributed to the Codex Astartes. It describes not only methods of fighting wars, but also deals with such diverse elements as organizing troops, establishing supply lines, clothing and feeding troops, subtrefuge, and espionage, and of course, countless tactics and ploys to confound the opposing commander.
With such brilliant minds as the Space Marine Primarchs Leman Russ and El'Johnson offering sagely advice, as well as the practical wisdom of the great Imperial Guard commander General Tybour, the Codex Astartes has always been regarded as an essential part of every young officer's education. Every Imperial officer is familiar with its contents, and its many precepts and ideas form the basis for much lively debate. The book remains fresh and valid ten thousand years after it was written. "
Sounds like it's written in-universe, meaning that it ultimately doesn't mean much.
That being said, I imagine that Russ probably is a brilliant tactician- probably more-so than a strategist.
I'm still curious to know about any practical genius Guilliman has ever displayed, though. I stand by former comment that his tactics are probably just average for a Primarch, compared to his near-peerless strategy.
I voted for Russ, because I think he outlived (out lives?) all the others.
You can argue tactics all you want, but if a building smashes you dead, that says something about how well you plan.
Guys, You are mistaken about terms. Neither Horus, nor Guilliman were tacticians - they were rather military strategists.
Strategy is about planning, tactics is about getting your job done after strategy meets reality and fails . I'd say that top tacticians were (not necessary in that order) - Alpharius-Omegon, Corax, Russ and Lion.
why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?
During the Crusade, the Ultramarines had the longest record of successes, while also achieving compliance with the least amount of casualties, making them one of the largest legions by far. Their efficiency and efficacy under Guilliman was unmatched. If he had a flaw, it was that he would always take the most efficient and efficacious approach, opening up the door to being predictabile (something that has culminated into a serious problem for 40K-era Ultramarines). Horus could probably match Guilliman, but being a glory hog, he wouldn't always make the "best" decision tactically if a more bombastic approach would still achieve the objective (casualties be damned) while making him look better, so he falls a tad short. The Lion could also probably match Guilliman/Horus on a tactical level, but the Lion's whole paranoia/inability to judge a person's character would likely hamper him in the grand scheme of things.
I guess another way to distinguish them is that Guilliman and Horus are better strategist and big picture guys, while Lion is better at the nitty gritty while missing the big picture (the only real example we have is his skill in void warfare). Alpharius-Omegon may also qualify as great, if unconventional tacticians (which is why Guilliman disliked them and Horus favored them).
Rochronos wrote:Although Guilliman is THE tactician, I would hazard that Russ shows more brilliance. As the Emperors executioner he had refined his Astartes slaying abilities long before Roboute and co were all shocked that some of their members were contemplating killing other Space Marines.
I seriously doubt they had "refined" his Astartes slaying abilities. Russ and his Legion weren't specifically designed to be executioners; a lot of what the Emperor did with the Primarchs seems to have been blind experimentation. Like a quote from Kharn in a later novel states, the Wolves were picked to attack other Astartes because they were loyal hounds, who would follow their orders and go no further, and could always be called back to heel. The World Eaters could just as effectively kill other Space Marines, but there was no recalling them once they were unleashed. In Aurelian, we're told that in an alternate timeline where the Emperor decided to sanction Lorgar rather than give him a second chance, the purge of the Word Bearers is enacted by the Wolves and Night Lords working in tandem (which makes sense, Kurze was another tool of the Emperor's vengeance, and the Wolves by themselves would be far too outnumbered to handle the Bearers solo... hell, they needed a huge detachment of Custodes and Silent Sisters to barely handle the Thousand Sons).
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
thenoobbomb wrote:Russ isnt a tactician. He may win battles, but tactical? 'Nope'
The Codex Astartes says different.
And I quote:
" Many of the most brilliant minds of the age contributed to the Codex Astartes. It describes not only methods of fighting wars, but also deals with such diverse elements as organizing troops, establishing supply lines, clothing and feeding troops, subtrefuge, and espionage, and of course, countless tactics and ploys to confound the opposing commander.
With such brilliant minds as the Space Marine Primarchs Leman Russ and El'Johnson offering sagely advice, as well as the practical wisdom of the great Imperial Guard commander General Tybour, the Codex Astartes has always been regarded as an essential part of every young officer's education. Every Imperial officer is familiar with its contents, and its many precepts and ideas form the basis for much lively debate. The book remains fresh and valid ten thousand years after it was written. "
From Armies of the Imperium, page 25.
This bit goes back to the early days of 2nd edition, when the game and its setting were significantly different than now.
Which was an amalgamation of tactics and strategies used by various military leaders, scholars, including other Primarchs, correlated into a book.
Guilliman was a leech.
I believe they each had their certain fields that they outshone their brothers on and developed superior tactics in these areas. To say one is better than the other is wrong.
However, the Lion does appear to be the one mentioned to be the most tactical of the Primarchs but Russ, the most quoted, back in 2nd Ed at least.
Prince_of_Crows wrote:
Guilliman: He is tactical, no doubt about it, no other primarch managed to sustain minimal damage during the heresy, get "distracted" for long enough to not realist something was going on at Terra or turn up to fight far too late in order to help but still arrive in time to wrte a book that you dictate everybody must follow despite the fact it severely weakened the space marines forever. His exploits during the great crusade were pretty basic. They just come across as the biggest, most pompous of the Primarchs, like the smug older brother who has the biggest room that your always told that you should be more like whilst every time he winds you up you get told off for shouting at him. He is tactical simply because he manages to grab fame without putting in a lot of effort.
As far as his Great Crusade exploits go, this directly contradicts the fluff as written
With the exception of the Luna Wolves, no Legion conquered as many worlds, or conquered worlds as fast, or left conquered worlds in such good state during the Great Crusade, as the Ultramarines. Whenever Guilliman liberated a world, he would not move on until he had set up a self-sufficient defense system, and left advisors behind to create industry, set up trade routes with the rest of the Imperium, and form a government whose first concern would always be the well-being of the people.
As for the Heresy, it's been said (Know No Fear?) that Horus knew he needed to keep Guilliman away or he would lose. Horus was prepared and confident that he could deal with all others at the Siege of Terra. But Guilliman had to be away or he wouldn't even try. Facing Guilliman was the auto-lose in Horus opinion.
why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?
During the Crusade, the Ultramarines had the longest record of successes, while also achieving compliance with the least amount of casualties, making them one of the largest legions by far. Their efficiency and efficacy under Guilliman was unmatched. If he had a flaw, it was that he would always take the most efficient and efficacious approach, opening up the door to being predictabile (something that has culminated into a serious problem for 40K-era Ultramarines). Horus could probably match Guilliman, but being a glory hog, he wouldn't always make the "best" decision tactically if a more bombastic approach would still achieve the objective (casualties be damned) while making him look better, so he falls a tad short. The Lion could also probably match Guilliman/Horus on a tactical level, but the Lion's whole paranoia/inability to judge a person's character would likely hamper him in the grand scheme of things.
I guess another way to distinguish them is that Guilliman and Horus are better strategist and big picture guys, while Lion is better at the nitty gritty while missing the big picture (the only real example we have is his skill in void warfare). Alpharius-Omegon may also qualify as great, if unconventional tacticians (which is why Guilliman disliked them and Horus favored them).
Rochronos wrote:Although Guilliman is THE tactician, I would hazard that Russ shows more brilliance. As the Emperors executioner he had refined his Astartes slaying abilities long before Roboute and co were all shocked that some of their members were contemplating killing other Space Marines.
I seriously doubt they had "refined" his Astartes slaying abilities. Russ and his Legion weren't specifically designed to be executioners; a lot of what the Emperor did with the Primarchs seems to have been blind experimentation. Like a quote from Kharn in a later novel states, the Wolves were picked to attack other Astartes because they were loyal hounds, who would follow their orders and go no further, and could always be called back to heel. The World Eaters could just as effectively kill other Space Marines, but there was no recalling them once they were unleashed. In Aurelian, we're told that in an alternate timeline where the Emperor decided to sanction Lorgar rather than give him a second chance, the purge of the Word Bearers is enacted by the Wolves and Night Lords working in tandem (which makes sense, Kurze was another tool of the Emperor's vengeance, and the Wolves by themselves would be far too outnumbered to handle the Bearers solo... hell, they needed a huge detachment of Custodes and Silent Sisters to barely handle the Thousand Sons).
You sir, know NOTHING of the Wolves, clearly you are traitor TS fanboy who is always pissing on one legion and it's primarch - so please stop,go prey to Tzeench and read some books
Omegus wrote:
I seriously doubt they had "refined" his Astartes slaying abilities. Russ and his Legion weren't specifically designed to be executioners; a lot of what the Emperor did with the Primarchs seems to have been blind experimentation. Like a quote from Kharn in a later novel states, the Wolves were picked to attack other Astartes because they were loyal hounds, who would follow their orders and go no further, and could always be called back to heel. The World Eaters could just as effectively kill other Space Marines, but there was no recalling them once they were unleashed. In Aurelian, we're told that in an alternate timeline where the Emperor decided to sanction Lorgar rather than give him a second chance, the purge of the Word Bearers is enacted by the Wolves and Night Lords working in tandem (which makes sense, Kurze was another tool of the Emperor's vengeance, and the Wolves by themselves would be far too outnumbered to handle the Bearers solo... hell, they needed a huge detachment of Custodes and Silent Sisters to barely handle the Thousand Sons).
You sir, know NOTHING of the Wolves, clearly you are traitor TS fanboy who is always pissing on one legion and it's primarch - so please stop,go prey to Tzeench and read some books
Err, what Omegus has posted is pretty bang on the mark, perhaps you need to do some further reading? Without the Custodes and Sister to assist them the mission on Prospero would not have gone well for the Wolves. It didn't go very well for them on Shrike when they fell out with the Sons.
Omegus wrote:
I seriously doubt they had "refined" his Astartes slaying abilities. Russ and his Legion weren't specifically designed to be executioners; a lot of what the Emperor did with the Primarchs seems to have been blind experimentation. Like a quote from Kharn in a later novel states, the Wolves were picked to attack other Astartes because they were loyal hounds, who would follow their orders and go no further, and could always be called back to heel. The World Eaters could just as effectively kill other Space Marines, but there was no recalling them once they were unleashed. In Aurelian, we're told that in an alternate timeline where the Emperor decided to sanction Lorgar rather than give him a second chance, the purge of the Word Bearers is enacted by the Wolves and Night Lords working in tandem (which makes sense, Kurze was another tool of the Emperor's vengeance, and the Wolves by themselves would be far too outnumbered to handle the Bearers solo... hell, they needed a huge detachment of Custodes and Silent Sisters to barely handle the Thousand Sons).
You sir, know NOTHING of the Wolves, clearly you are traitor TS fanboy who is always pissing on one legion and it's primarch - so please stop,go prey to Tzeench and read some books
Err, what Omegus has posted is pretty bang on the mark, perhaps you need to do some further reading? Without the Custodes and Sister to assist them the mission on Prospero would not have gone well for the Wolves. It didn't go very well for them on Shrike when they fell out with the Sons.
Great,another traitor!!! Look bringing S of S was like bringing a bolter ( Russ didn't want to bring them and btw they didn't bring enough ), Costodians were nothing for TS (easy kill ) - and that thing on Shrike would ended with a complete flesh change and Cyclops beheaded by Russ...
DarthMarko wrote:
Great,another traitor!!! Look bringing S of S was like bringing a bolter ( Russ didn't want to bring them and btw they didn't bring enough ), Costodians were nothing for TS (easy kill ) - and that thing on Shrike would ended with a complete flesh change and Cyclops beheaded by Russ...
Zweischneid wrote:
As for the Heresy, it's been said (Know No Fear?) that Horus knew he needed to keep Guilliman away or he would lose. Horus was prepared and confident that he could
deal with all others at the Siege of Terra. But Guilliman had to be away or he wouldn't even try. Facing Guilliman was the auto-lose in Horus opinion.
Well, it's was mentioned before that Horus primary concern was to keep both Space Wolves AND Dark Angels away during the Siege of Terra, since combined might of both legions, as well as tactical capabilites of Russ and Lion would have seriously shifted the balance of forces there.
DarthMarko wrote:
Great,another traitor!!! Look bringing S of S was like bringing a bolter ( Russ didn't want to bring them and btw they didn't bring enough ), Costodians were nothing for TS (easy kill ) - and that thing on Shrike would ended with a complete flesh change and Cyclops beheaded by Russ...
Sure, that's exactly how it would have gone down
Yep- flesh change DID happen (yep only one, but still) and when Russ came it was massive craping in pants...end how is ol' Cyclops now ? Still in a wheelchair threatening galaxy from his room?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CainTheHunter wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
As for the Heresy, it's been said (Know No Fear?) that Horus knew he needed to keep Guilliman away or he would lose. Horus was prepared and confident that he could
deal with all others at the Siege of Terra. But Guilliman had to be away or he wouldn't even try. Facing Guilliman was the auto-lose in Horus opinion.
Well, it's was mentioned before that Horus primary concern was to keep both Space Wolves AND Dark Angels away during the Siege of Terra, since combined might of both legions, as well as tactical capabilites of Russ and Lion would have seriously shifted the balance of forces there.
You don't have to bother, there will always be TS fanboys (kids),who will consider Russ mere brute - but that's ok, Wolves like it that way
Even if you buy Dan Abnett's version of Space Wolves as "astartes-executioners" for the Emperor as Canon (though note how Abnett always stresses how "his" 40K is a different interpretation of "official" 40K), that is still a specialization that may even go against his "tactics" credits which include.. to some extent.. adapting to the unforeseen, not perfecting your techniques against one enemy and one enemy only.
Similar things could be said about the Night Lords. Having just read Soul Hunter, it stresses very clearly how the Night Lords find themselves very much out of their comfort zone fighting against the Skitarii and the Adeptus Mechanicus, where their "usual" Terror-tactics fail them.
DarthMarko wrote:end how is ol' Cyclops now ? Still in a wheelchair threatening galaxy from his room?
Doing a lot better than Russ it would seem
DarthMarko wrote:You don't have to bother, there will always be TS fanboys (kids),who will consider Russ mere brute - but that's ok, Wolves like it that way
I'm not either a fan of the Wolves or the Thousand Sons, each Legion had their merits and flaws. But I can also read the fluff ,remain impartial, and express my opinion going by what we have in front off us and not putting forth my own biased opinion on one because they are the bestest bestest Legion because they are super dooper marines.
DarthMarko wrote:end how is ol' Cyclops now ? Still in a wheelchair threatening galaxy from his room?
Doing a lot better than Russ it would seem
DarthMarko wrote:You don't have to bother, there will always be TS fanboys (kids),who will consider Russ mere brute - but that's ok, Wolves like it that way
I'm not either a fan of the Wolves or the Thousand Sons, each Legion had their merits and flaws. But I can also read the fluff ,remain impartial, and express my opinion going by what we have in front off us and not putting forth my own biased opinion on one because they are the bestest bestest Legion because they are super dooper marines.
But you are not impartial, not in a mile I never said SW were uber marines,but to quote TS
Spoiler:
I know what you’re thinking, but I have studied their campaigns and they are a blunt instrument of war. There is no subtlety or precision to their fights, simply swathes of destruction without control. When the Emperor unleashes them, be sure not to get in their way, for when the Wolves slip their leash, nothing will stop them until only ashes remain.
and even in that book TS are wondering why did the Emperor let something so terrible to exsist - ofc they had a role,their was sniffing and cutting traitors....
DarthMarko wrote:
But you are not impartial, not in a mile I never said SW were uber marines.
How have I not remained impartial, I haven't criticized the Wolves, I have just backed up Omegus, which you stated as being entirely false. You might not have said that the Wolves are the best directly but your opinion that they are is clear.
Collected Visions goes into how the Sisters of Battle were sent with the Wolves as the Emperor recognised how their talents would assist in the battle, it also goes into details as to how well the Custodes performed. If the Space Wolves had not had their assistance things would not have gone so well for them.
You gave a possibility of what might have happened on Shrike, sure, that could have happened. Alternatively the Thousand Sons could have gone all out on the Space Wolves, obliterate them and then deal with Russ with the help of Magnus. The Wolves of Fenris were in a much worse state than the Thousand Sons before the intervention of Russ and the Flesh Change.
DarthMarko wrote:
But you are not impartial, not in a mile I never said SW were uber marines.
How have I not remained impartial, I haven't criticized the Wolves, I have just backed up Omegus, which you stated as being entirely false. You might not have said that the Wolves are the best directly but your opinion that they are is clear.
Collected Visions goes into how the Sisters of Battle were sent with the Wolves as the Emperor recognised how their talents would assist in the battle, it also goes into details as to how well the Custodes performed. If the Space Wolves had not had their assistance things would not have gone so well for them.
You gave a possibility of what might have happened on Shrike, sure, that could have happened. Alternatively the Thousand Sons could have gone all out on the Space Wolves, obliterate them and then deal with Russ with the help of Magnus. The Wolves of Fenris were in a much worse state than the Thousand Sons before the intervention of Russ and the Flesh Change.
Agree but when Russ knocked on the door - hmmm, odds for the TS went down.... and Wolves didn't draw Bolters,they only wanted to brawl - but TS did use pp- think on that....and again flash change was TS downfall on Prospero, S of S didn't have any big role,even T'kar said that they didn't bring enough of them and were easy kill and besides how would you fight a psyker, with a stick maybe?
DarthMarko wrote: and even in that book TS are wondering why did the Emperor let something so terrible to exsist - ofc they had a role,their was sniffing and cutting traitors....
Unlikely.
A). Traitor-Marines were something unthinkable up until the Heresy.. otherwise Horus Heresy wouldn't have blindsided the galaxy as it did.
B). Space Wolves seem particularly ill-suited to this task (e.g. fighting Huron on the Wolf of Fenris).
If anything, remember that this quote from TS is from a "direct" speech of one of the characters in TS, not a statement by the "narrator".
DarthMarko wrote: and even in that book TS are wondering why did the Emperor let something so terrible to exsist - ofc they had a role,their was sniffing and cutting traitors....
Unlikely.
A). Traitor-Marines were something unthinkable up until the Heresy.. otherwise Horus Heresy wouldn't have blindsided the galaxy as it did.
B). Space Wolves seem particularly ill-suited to this task (e.g. fighting Huron on the Wolf of Fenris).
If anything, remember that this quote from TS is from a "direct" speech of one of the characters in TS, not a statement by the "narrator".
Hm, 2 legions missing ? Clearly what Russ said that it wasn't the first time they have to fight astartes....
and how was Soul Hunter ?Mean to read it these days...
and how was Soul Hunter ?Mean to read it these days...
Soul Hunter is pretty good. Does a fantastic job of tying the Heresy Era to present-day Chaos Marines and vice versa. ADB's "layered" style writing of scenes-within-scenes works really well there (culminating in a final "battle/duel-across-the-ages", which I really liked).
The book uses a few human protagonists for perspective (similar to Abnett), but it works exceedingly well here I think (mainly to convey of all Night & Darkness theme).
Also some great "side-characters" that make up "First Claw". Arguably more interesting bunch of guys compared to the main-guy.
You can "test-read" ADB's "Night Lord writing" in the pretty awesome Savage Weapons short story if you like (if from a Dark Angel Main-Perspective).
Savage Weapon also does the same style of writing (I call it layered..?). Leaves off at a cliffhanger, then starts on a completely different scene and builds the "cliff-hanger" back in from another view. Also the "mirror" of the first and last part.
and how was Soul Hunter ?Mean to read it these days...
Soul Hunter is pretty good. Does a fantastic job of tying the Heresy Era to present-day Chaos Marines and vice versa. ADB's "layered" style writing of scenes-within-scenes works really well there (culminating in a final "battle/duel-across-the-ages", which I really liked).
The book uses a few human protagonists for perspective (similar to Abnett), but it works exceedingly well here I think (mainly to convey of all Night & Darkness theme).
Also some great "side-characters" that make up "First Claw". Arguably more interesting bunch of guys compared to the main-guy.
You can "test-read" ADB's "Night Lord writing" in the pretty awesome ]Savage Weapon short story if you like (if from a Dark Angel Main-Perspective).
I' now but for me ADB is just little bit over the top in the grimdark department, like if they put him in charge of BL, 40k would be toast in a most horrific way you can imagine- but still I admire his style ,would try it, ty
Buttons wrote:
I have heard a lot of people state that Lion is the best, or at least one of the best tacticians amongst the primarchs and I am asking for a source.
Buttons wrote:
I have heard a lot of people state that Lion is the best, or at least one of the best tacticians amongst the primarchs and I am asking for a source.
It's in the current Dark Angel's Codex.
I have it mentioned in WD 233 as well, it's also where Leman Russ kills a Titan on his own after leaping out of a Skyscraper
All I need to find are quotes for the Khan being kept on Commorragh and Valdor beating Horus in a sparring match
It kind of depends on how the question is interpreted. Guilliman was a great tactician when it came to the battles, but alienating another commander just because you don't like how he chooses to fight is not a tactically sound decision. Similarly, the Lion sent some of his most loyal allies back to Caliban because one of them got kind of jealous because the Lion outshone him in almost every way. Fulgrim won a war that was meant to have taken years in less than a month, but wasn't smart enough to not listen to a creepy voice in his head telling him to do drugs and rape things.
Durza wrote:It kind of depends on how the question is interpreted. Guilliman was a great tactician when it came to the battles, but alienating another commander just because you don't like how he chooses to fight is not a tactically sound decision. Similarly, the Lion sent some of his most loyal allies back to Caliban because one of them got kind of jealous because the Lion outshone him in almost every way. Fulgrim won a war that was meant to have taken years in less than a month, but wasn't smart enough to not listen to a creepy voice in his head telling him to do drugs and rape things.
Completely my original point (though my hatred for the big blue parasite that is rowboat girlyman kind of detraced from that). In deliverance lost (when asked by a genetor weather it would be worth cloning astates) Corax was quoted as saying "The astartes are powerful because they are similar but different, everybody has different skills, amazing bravery, hand to hand precision, good markmanship, leadership skills etc". (ok its a paraphrase but still) the same with the primarchs and legions in general, alone (as in single legion not backed with another one) they are formidable and very powerful, but if they work in tandem they are unstoppable, like parts from a machine that creates something, every part helping to make something that is greater than any one component (or in the legions case, winning battles that one single legion could not).
In a way, though I hate to say hat people like Guilliman are equal to Horus, Corax, Alpharius - Omeagon etc, they are equal but in different roles, it comes back to Angron vs Magnus, angron can't beat Magnus in a psychic duel, but Angron will beat magnus in hand to hand combat. Equally Alpharius - Omeagon can't inspire his troops like Lorgar can and Sanguinius is better at flying than Vulkan). To say one primarch is better for every situation is like saying a shark is the greatest killing machine that trumps everything (it can maul things in the water, but on land its comically useless).
People will give me funny looks for saying this, But my vote goes to Space Batman, Konrad Curze.
As far as tactics, he is too specialized to compete with Papa Smurf or Horus, and Alpharius is similar in his tactics. However, the OP's question includes overall strategy, not just tactics (kinda confused me at first, but I'm working off of the description and not the title which is tactics specific.)
Sun Tzu says on Offensive Strategy that "Generally in the best policy is to take a state intact; to ruin it is inferior to this." As Space Marines are designed as an offensive spearhead primarily (no offense Dorn, you're still awesome), their mandate is to defeat the enemy while doing as little harm to potential resources as possible. As such, he goes on to say that, "Thus, those skilled in war subdue the enemy's army without battle. They capture his cities without assaulting them and overthrow his state without protracted operations." The key word that Sun Tzu uses here is subdue; Curze and the night lords were the masters of subjugation.
Curze was possibly the only Primarch who used warfare as an option rather than a necessity (the reason I cringed when I saw Russ as one of the highest rated Primarchs). He used terror tactics to avoid open warfare and resource draining, time consuming sieges. Grand Strategy is all about acheiving your goal with as few losses as possible. Few can say they've taken a planet without firing a single shot (and I don't count World Eaters using only chainswords either ). In this respect, he was a radically advanced strategist in comparison to all the other primarchs. Even in warfare, the Night Lords would kill the enemy leadership and conduct stealth raids on vulnerable targets, keeping the fights protracted with minimal use of resources.
In short, he used minimal resources, concise attacks at important targets, and mental warfare to acheive the desired results with little to no loss of valuable ammo, fuel, captured enemy tech and infrastructure, and Astartes lives. That is what makes him the best.
Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:People will give me funny looks for saying this, But my vote goes to Space Batman, Konrad Curze.
As far as tactics, he is too specialized to compete with Papa Smurf or Horus, and Alpharius is similar in his tactics. However, the OP's question includes overall strategy, not just tactics (kinda confused me at first, but I'm working off of the description and not the title which is tactics specific.)
Sun Tzu says on Offensive Strategy that "Generally in the best policy is to take a state intact; to ruin it is inferior to this." As Space Marines are designed as an offensive spearhead primarily (no offense Dorn, you're still awesome), their mandate is to defeat the enemy while doing as little harm to potential resources as possible. As such, he goes on to say that, "Thus, those skilled in war subdue the enemy's army without battle. They capture his cities without assaulting them and overthrow his state without protracted operations." The key word that Sun Tzu uses here is subdue; Curze and the night lords were the masters of subjugation.
Curze was possibly the only Primarch who used warfare as an option rather than a necessity (the reason I cringed when I saw Russ as one of the highest rated Primarchs). He used terror tactics to avoid open warfare and resource draining, time consuming sieges. Grand Strategy is all about acheiving your goal with as few losses as possible. Few can say they've taken a planet without firing a single shot (and I don't count World Eaters using only chainswords either ). In this respect, he was a radically advanced strategist in comparison to all the other primarchs. Even in warfare, the Night Lords would kill the enemy leadership and conduct stealth raids on vulnerable targets, keeping the fights protracted with minimal use of resources.
In short, he used minimal resources, concise attacks at important targets, and mental warfare to acheive the desired results with little to no loss of valuable ammo, fuel, captured enemy tech and infrastructure, and Astartes lives. That is what makes him the best.
. . . Borderline rant done now
I can agree with that. Kurze and Alpharious both are master strategists.
Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:People will give me funny looks for saying this, But my vote goes to Space Batman, Konrad Curze.
As far as tactics, he is too specialized to compete with Papa Smurf or Horus, and Alpharius is similar in his tactics. However, the OP's question includes overall strategy, not just tactics (kinda confused me at first, but I'm working off of the description and not the title which is tactics specific.)
Sun Tzu says on Offensive Strategy that "Generally in the best policy is to take a state intact; to ruin it is inferior to this." As Space Marines are designed as an offensive spearhead primarily (no offense Dorn, you're still awesome), their mandate is to defeat the enemy while doing as little harm to potential resources as possible. As such, he goes on to say that, "Thus, those skilled in war subdue the enemy's army without battle. They capture his cities without assaulting them and overthrow his state without protracted operations." The key word that Sun Tzu uses here is subdue; Curze and the night lords were the masters of subjugation.
Curze was possibly the only Primarch who used warfare as an option rather than a necessity (the reason I cringed when I saw Russ as one of the highest rated Primarchs). He used terror tactics to avoid open warfare and resource draining, time consuming sieges. Grand Strategy is all about acheiving your goal with as few losses as possible. Few can say they've taken a planet without firing a single shot (and I don't count World Eaters using only chainswords either ). In this respect, he was a radically advanced strategist in comparison to all the other primarchs. Even in warfare, the Night Lords would kill the enemy leadership and conduct stealth raids on vulnerable targets, keeping the fights protracted with minimal use of resources.
In short, he used minimal resources, concise attacks at important targets, and mental warfare to acheive the desired results with little to no loss of valuable ammo, fuel, captured enemy tech and infrastructure, and Astartes lives. That is what makes him the best.
. . . Borderline rant done now
But he also committed the first exterminatus to bring a planet back into compliance. That is kinda not Sun Tzu at all.
On the other hand, if committing exterminatus was absolutely the only way to win without suffering massive losses of manpower, resources or time, then that would definitely be Sun Tzu.
why? i dont understand ultramarine fans, they do not seem to have any redeeming qualities that i have read at. what are their top strong points? their primarch apparently steals all of Dorns honor, and is he a good tactician or does he just have large numbers, and a strong economy and planetary setup, from my understanding hes smart at politics and governments and recruitment like hes a good political head, and organizer but in warfare?
During the Crusade, the Ultramarines had the longest record of successes, while also achieving compliance with the least amount of casualties, making them one of the largest legions by far. Their efficiency and efficacy under Guilliman was unmatched. If he had a flaw, it was that he would always take the most efficient and efficacious approach, opening up the door to being predictabile (something that has culminated into a serious problem for 40K-era Ultramarines). Horus could probably match Guilliman, but being a glory hog, he wouldn't always make the "best" decision tactically if a more bombastic approach would still achieve the objective (casualties be damned) while making him look better, so he falls a tad short. The Lion could also probably match Guilliman/Horus on a tactical level, but the Lion's whole paranoia/inability to judge a person's character would likely hamper him in the grand scheme of things.
I guess another way to distinguish them is that Guilliman and Horus are better strategist and big picture guys, while Lion is better at the nitty gritty while missing the big picture (the only real example we have is his skill in void warfare). Alpharius-Omegon may also qualify as great, if unconventional tacticians (which is why Guilliman disliked them and Horus favored them).
Rochronos wrote:Although Guilliman is THE tactician, I would hazard that Russ shows more brilliance. As the Emperors executioner he had refined his Astartes slaying abilities long before Roboute and co were all shocked that some of their members were contemplating killing other Space Marines.
I seriously doubt they had "refined" his Astartes slaying abilities. Russ and his Legion weren't specifically designed to be executioners; a lot of what the Emperor did with the Primarchs seems to have been blind experimentation. Like a quote from Kharn in a later novel states, the Wolves were picked to attack other Astartes because they were loyal hounds, who would follow their orders and go no further, and could always be called back to heel. The World Eaters could just as effectively kill other Space Marines, but there was no recalling them once they were unleashed. In Aurelian, we're told that in an alternate timeline where the Emperor decided to sanction Lorgar rather than give him a second chance, the purge of the Word Bearers is enacted by the Wolves and Night Lords working in tandem (which makes sense, Kurze was another tool of the Emperor's vengeance, and the Wolves by themselves would be far too outnumbered to handle the Bearers solo... hell, they needed a huge detachment of Custodes and Silent Sisters to barely handle the Thousand Sons).
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
thenoobbomb wrote:Russ isnt a tactician. He may win battles, but tactical? 'Nope'
The Codex Astartes says different.
And I quote:
" Many of the most brilliant minds of the age contributed to the Codex Astartes. It describes not only methods of fighting wars, but also deals with such diverse elements as organizing troops, establishing supply lines, clothing and feeding troops, subtrefuge, and espionage, and of course, countless tactics and ploys to confound the opposing commander.
With such brilliant minds as the Space Marine Primarchs Leman Russ and El'Johnson offering sagely advice, as well as the practical wisdom of the great Imperial Guard commander General Tybour, the Codex Astartes has always been regarded as an essential part of every young officer's education. Every Imperial officer is familiar with its contents, and its many precepts and ideas form the basis for much lively debate. The book remains fresh and valid ten thousand years after it was written. "
From Armies of the Imperium, page 25.
This bit goes back to the early days of 2nd edition, when the game and its setting were significantly different than now.
That doesn't invalidate it. It still proves that Leman Russ and the Lion were still superb tacticians. Nothing I've ever read has changed anything about Leman Russ or the Lion contributing to the Codex Astartes and being called brilliant minds. They were brilliant and they were both superb tacticians.
If you have something that contradicts what I posted other than " the codex astartes was written by Roboute Guilliman" and comes out and says Russ and the Lion sucked at tactics then I'd be glad to see it. But in the entire time I've been playing this game Russ and the Lion have always been portrayed as they were in that bit of fluff.
I think people are confusing tactician and strategy. Rommel was a great tactician, but a mediocre strategist who often out ran his supply lines and had issues with logistics.
BlaxicanX wrote:Yep, that's been stated about 17 times in this thread thus far.
Let's get an 18th!
I think people are confusing tactics and strategy......:-)Guiliman knew how to get extra rations for hungry man in the trenches while Alpharius and Omegon infiltrated,scouted and then attacked enemy stronghold in a most unique way....
BlaxicanX wrote:Yep, that's been stated about 17 times in this thread thus far.
Let's get an 18th!
I think people are confusing tactics and strategy......:-)Guiliman knew how to get extra rations for hungry man in the trenches while Alpharius and Omegon infiltrated,scouted and then attacked enemy stronghold in a most unique way....
with the only purpose to steal those rations!
So, at the end of the day - do you want to be a hungry strategist or full tactician?
BlaxicanX wrote:Yep, that's been stated about 17 times in this thread thus far.
Let's get an 18th!
I think people are confusing tactics and strategy......:-)Guiliman knew how to get extra rations for hungry man in the trenches while Alpharius and Omegon infiltrated,scouted and then attacked enemy stronghold in a most unique way....
with the only purpose to steal those rations!
and then give them back, just so that they can steal it again....
Pilau Rice wrote:
Which was an amalgamation of tactics and strategies used by various military leaders, scholars, including other Primarchs, correlated into a book.
Guilliman was a leech.
He's living' in that 30k century
Doin' something mean to it
Doin' it better than anybody you ever seen do it
Screams from the haters, got a nice ring to it
I guess every superhero need his theme music
DarthMarko wrote:
You sir, know NOTHING of the Wolves, clearly you are traitor TS fanboy who is always pissing on one legion and it's primarch - so please stop,go prey to Tzeench and read some books
Oh yay, we have another BrotherRamses. Uninformed Space Pups fanboys are so dime-a-dozen.
Durza wrote:It kind of depends on how the question is interpreted. Guilliman was a great tactician when it came to the battles, but alienating another commander just because you don't like how he chooses to fight is not a tactically sound decision. Similarly, the Lion sent some of his most loyal allies back to Caliban because one of them got kind of jealous because the Lion outshone him in almost every way. Fulgrim won a war that was meant to have taken years in less than a month, but wasn't smart enough to not listen to a creepy voice in his head telling him to do drugs and rape things.
Well, on several occasions in the various Dark Angels novels, it is stressed that the Lion would not have been able to accomplish what he did without Luther. The Lion was the symbol at the head of the army, the general fighting at the front, but what kept the whole crusade together was Luther. While Luther's jealousy/resentment of the Lion was a weakness of character, he did actually deserve the recognition he craved. If nothing else, it's just another example of the Lion's poor judgement when it came to dealing with people (as if we needed any more). As for Fulgrim, he accomplished his objective by throwing lives away. That campaign probably gave the High Lords inspiration for future IG tactics.
Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:In short, he used minimal resources, concise attacks at important targets, and mental warfare to acheive the desired results with little to no loss of valuable ammo, fuel, captured enemy tech and infrastructure, and Astartes lives. That is what makes him the best.
. . . Borderline rant done now
I'm not so sure about that. Space Batman's idea of bringing a planet into compliance was to herd all of the survivors into pits they dug themselves, and then systematically skin them all alive.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Which was an amalgamation of tactics and strategies used by various military leaders, scholars, including other Primarchs, correlated into a book.
Guilliman was a leech.
He's living' in that 30k century
Doin' something mean to it
Doin' it better than anybody you ever seen do it
Screams from the haters, got a nice ring to it
I guess every superhero need his theme music
DarthMarko wrote:
You sir, know NOTHING of the Wolves, clearly you are traitor TS fanboy who is always pissing on one legion and it's primarch - so please stop,go prey to Tzeench and read some books
Oh yay, we have another BrotherRamses. Uninformed Space Pups fanboys are so dime-a-dozen.
Durza wrote:It kind of depends on how the question is interpreted. Guilliman was a great tactician when it came to the battles, but alienating another commander just because you don't like how he chooses to fight is not a tactically sound decision. Similarly, the Lion sent some of his most loyal allies back to Caliban because one of them got kind of jealous because the Lion outshone him in almost every way. Fulgrim won a war that was meant to have taken years in less than a month, but wasn't smart enough to not listen to a creepy voice in his head telling him to do drugs and rape things.
Well, on several occasions in the various Dark Angels novels, it is stressed that the Lion would not have been able to accomplish what he did without Luther. The Lion was the symbol at the head of the army, the general fighting at the front, but what kept the whole crusade together was Luther. While Luther's jealousy/resentment of the Lion was a weakness of character, he did actually deserve the recognition he craved. If nothing else, it's just another example of the Lion's poor judgement when it came to dealing with people (as if we needed any more). As for Fulgrim, he accomplished his objective by throwing lives away. That campaign probably gave the High Lords inspiration for future IG tactics.
Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:In short, he used minimal resources, concise attacks at important targets, and mental warfare to acheive the desired results with little to no loss of valuable ammo, fuel, captured enemy tech and infrastructure, and Astartes lives. That is what makes him the best.
. . . Borderline rant done now
I'm not so sure about that. Space Batman's idea of bringing a planet into compliance was to herd all of the survivors into pits they dug themselves, and then systematically skin them all alive.
I'am space pup fanboy as you are thousand orphan's fankid (or more like 100 now) - but I've read all heresy books you can call me whatever you want but don't call me uninformed,ty
Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:People will give me funny looks for saying this, But my vote goes to Space Batman, Konrad Curze.
As far as tactics, he is too specialized to compete with Papa Smurf or Horus, and Alpharius is similar in his tactics. However, the OP's question includes overall strategy, not just tactics (kinda confused me at first, but I'm working off of the description and not the title which is tactics specific.)
Sun Tzu says on Offensive Strategy that "Generally in the best policy is to take a state intact; to ruin it is inferior to this." As Space Marines are designed as an offensive spearhead primarily (no offense Dorn, you're still awesome), their mandate is to defeat the enemy while doing as little harm to potential resources as possible. As such, he goes on to say that, "Thus, those skilled in war subdue the enemy's army without battle. They capture his cities without assaulting them and overthrow his state without protracted operations." The key word that Sun Tzu uses here is subdue; Curze and the night lords were the masters of subjugation.
Curze was possibly the only Primarch who used warfare as an option rather than a necessity (the reason I cringed when I saw Russ as one of the highest rated Primarchs). He used terror tactics to avoid open warfare and resource draining, time consuming sieges. Grand Strategy is all about acheiving your goal with as few losses as possible. Few can say they've taken a planet without firing a single shot (and I don't count World Eaters using only chainswords either ). In this respect, he was a radically advanced strategist in comparison to all the other primarchs. Even in warfare, the Night Lords would kill the enemy leadership and conduct stealth raids on vulnerable targets, keeping the fights protracted with minimal use of resources.
In short, he used minimal resources, concise attacks at important targets, and mental warfare to acheive the desired results with little to no loss of valuable ammo, fuel, captured enemy tech and infrastructure, and Astartes lives. That is what makes him the best.
. . . Borderline rant done now
Hmm I don’t quit agree with you on Curze’s scare tactics being a very efficient strategy. In fact, I consider myself one of the few, who believes the purpose of the tactics used by the Night lords to be the very opposite of what it means to be a Space marine. Here you have a legion of capable warriors, who have been build and trained to take the heat and deal the heavy punches. And then what does this almighty legion spend their time on? Skulking in the dark and cutting the throats of blind sheep, when they otherwise just could have manned up and put those guns to good use.
Sure, once in a while a planet or two gives up when they hear the scary Night Lords are approaching them. But generally we are talking about weakling human societies here, and not the real threat that is the Xeno. How well would the tactics of NL work against the fearless Orks I wonder?
I know I’m going to get flack for this, but I just can’t help but see NL as anything but a huge waist of manpower. Take from it what you will.
Redcruisair wrote:Hmm I don’t quit agree with you on Curze’s scare tactics being a very efficient strategy. In fact, I consider myself one of the few, who believes the purpose of the tactics used by the Night lords to be the very opposite of what it means to be a Space marine.
I'm pretty sure that all that would mean is that "real" Space Marines are morons.
The best strategy is the one that uses up the least of your resources, and obviously Kurze's strategy was highly successful. After all, remember that Lorgar's legion acted in a manner more similar to the "average legion", but still got reprimanded for not conquering planets fast enough! Kurze never received such reprimands.
Redcruisair wrote:Hmm I don’t quit agree with you on Curze’s scare tactics being a very efficient strategy. In fact, I consider myself one of the few, who believes the purpose of the tactics used by the Night lords to be the very opposite of what it means to be a Space marine.
I'm pretty sure that all that would mean is that "real" Space Marines are morons.
The best strategy is the one that uses up the least of your resources, and obviously Kurze's strategy was highly successful. After all, remember that Lorgar's legion acted in a manner more similar to the "average legion", but still got reprimanded for not conquering planets fast enough! Kurze never received such reprimands.
If the best strategy of saving resources revolves around not engaging your enemy and subsequently wasting your time (in my eyes,) then yeah, I guess you could call the NL a recourse-minded legion.
Nah, Lorgar got rebuked because his legion spent more time ‘converting’ than actual fighting. Also, please note the events following after, were the WB got back in the game and conquered more worlds than any other legion (including the Night Lords).
Actually, Curze did get such a reprimand. Just for different reasons.
BlaxicanX wrote:On the other hand, if committing exterminatus was absolutely the only way to win without suffering massive losses of manpower, resources or time, then that would definitely be Sun Tzu.
It was simply a planet that fell out of compliance. He did it simply as retribution.
BlaxicanX wrote:On the other hand, if committing exterminatus was absolutely the only way to win without suffering massive losses of manpower, resources or time, then that would definitely be Sun Tzu.
It was simply a planet that fell out of compliance. He did it simply as retribution.
That I feel is more of a reflection upon his mental state rather than his tactical mindset.
Which was an amalgamation of tactics and strategies used by various military leaders, scholars, including other Primarchs, correlated into a book.
Guilliman was a leech.
I believe they each had their certain fields that they outshone their brothers on and developed superior tactics in these areas. To say one is better than the other is wrong.
However, the Lion does appear to be the one mentioned to be the most tactical of the Primarchs but Russ, the most quoted, back in 2nd Ed at least.
Actually, much of the Codex Astartes was Gulliman's own tactics. It wasn't all stolen.
Redcruisair wrote:Hmm I don’t quit agree with you on Curze’s scare tactics being a very efficient strategy. In fact, I consider myself one of the few, who believes the purpose of the tactics used by the Night lords to be the very opposite of what it means to be a Space marine.
I'm pretty sure that all that would mean is that "real" Space Marines are morons.
The best strategy is the one that uses up the least of your resources, and obviously Kurze's strategy was highly successful. After all, remember that Lorgar's legion acted in a manner more similar to the "average legion", but still got reprimanded for not conquering planets fast enough! Kurze never received such reprimands.
If the best strategy of saving resources revolves around not engaging your enemy and subsequently wasting your time (in my eyes,) then yeah, I guess you could call the NL a recourse-minded legion.
Nah, Lorgar got rebuked because his legion spent more time ‘converting’ than actual fighting. Also, please note the events following after, were the WB got back in the game and conquered more worlds than any other legion (including the Night Lords).
Actually, Curze did get such a reprimand. Just for different reasons.
You would have a point about it "being a waste of time" if it didn't actually work. The sheer fact that Kurze did routinely succeed at making whole worlds go compliant just by scaring them, proves you wrong. While a Legion such as the Death Guard might have assaulted a planet using traditional Astartes tactics, and conquered it in two month while sustaining 300 losses, the Night Lords would conquer a planet in one month while sustaining 3 losses.
So I really don't see how that's an inferior tactic. Dishonorable? Sure. But if it gets results than it gets results, and economy of effort is the name of the game for any strategy.
How the hell did ANYONE say Leman Russ. He was probably the second WORST with only Angron worse.
Okay I though about it, the 4 worst would be Leman Russ, Magnus, Logar, and Angron would be the actual worse one. (That may even be in order, that im not sure about)
I said Lion in the end because his fluff apperently says he is. Im not sure if I see it but whatever. Man its hard to say a top 5 because there are so many good leaders among the Primarchs
Lion is stated as the best pure tactician, while Horus is just the best all arround. Guilliman is best with Logistics, and would be the best to overall run an Empire.
I also feel the need to edit myself. These are Primarchs. So even the worse tactically minded Primarch is still leagues better than the average military officer of the Imperial Army or alien races.
Compared to each other, some are considered down right gakky, compared to average living beings, they are increadibly dangerous even if you ignore their personal combat abilites
Redcruisair wrote:Hmm I don’t quit agree with you on Curze’s scare tactics being a very efficient strategy. In fact, I consider myself one of the few, who believes the purpose of the tactics used by the Night lords to be the very opposite of what it means to be a Space marine.
I'm pretty sure that all that would mean is that "real" Space Marines are morons.
The best strategy is the one that uses up the least of your resources, and obviously Kurze's strategy was highly successful. After all, remember that Lorgar's legion acted in a manner more similar to the "average legion", but still got reprimanded for not conquering planets fast enough! Kurze never received such reprimands.
If the best strategy of saving resources revolves around not engaging your enemy and subsequently wasting your time (in my eyes,) then yeah, I guess you could call the NL a recourse-minded legion.
Nah, Lorgar got rebuked because his legion spent more time ‘converting’ than actual fighting. Also, please note the events following after, were the WB got back in the game and conquered more worlds than any other legion (including the Night Lords).
Actually, Curze did get such a reprimand. Just for different reasons.
You would have a point about it "being a waste of time" if it didn't actually work. The sheer fact that Kurze did routinely succeed at making whole worlds go compliant just by scaring them, proves you wrong. While a Legion such as the Death Guard might have assaulted a planet using traditional Astartes tactics, and conquered it in two month while sustaining 300 losses, the Night Lords would conquer a planet in one month while sustaining 3 losses.
So I really don't see how that's an inferior tactic. Dishonorable? Sure. But if it gets results than it gets results, and economy of effort is the name of the game for any strategy.
I can totally see your point friend. Regardless, I still believe Curze’s tactics to be useless, when said guy is confronted with an enemy, who does not let it self be scared so easily, or an enemy who is incapable of feeling fear. This is why you only see Night Lords dealing with wayward human worlds, and not fighting against Xeno threats (because his methods are unpractical against them.)
Yes, we can agree on his methods being efficient at subjugating lost human colonies, though his tactic fails him, when confronted with an enemy, who have no fear (space marines.) Hence why his tactics did not succeed against the Dark Angels and subsequently had his legion broken and defeated by Lion’s men.
I don't remember which book it was in the Night Lords trilogy, but I remember how at one point in the story, the Night Lords were being used as common front line soldiers, and it was clear that they were out of their element in that role, and suffering for it. Open warfare ain't there MO.
Yes the night lords aren't front line soldiers however they aren't bad and are just as good as the typical dogs of the 13th. In the fist NL book 5 night lords take down a war hound titan. I do not recall them loosing a single battle brother in the skirmish. They are also good in dog fights in corridors and boarding attacks. Good in void warfare. If you were to put them in an open field in the middle of the day against another legion, i'm sure they would loose to anyone, however they still wouldn't be to shabby.
Frecklesonfire wrote: Yes the night lords aren't front line soldiers however they aren't bad and are just as good as the typical dogs of the 13th. In the fist NL book 5 night lords take down a war hound titan. I do not recall them loosing a single battle brother in the skirmish. They are also good in dog fights in corridors and boarding attacks. Good in void warfare. If you were to put them in an open field in the middle of the day against another legion, i'm sure they would loose to anyone, however they still wouldn't be to shabby.
No one here is so naïve as to accuse the Night Lords of performing below standard. I personally just wanted to point out what I saw as a flaw in the NL’s strategic approach to warfare.
I don't remember which book it was in the Night Lords trilogy, but I remember how at one point in the story, the Night Lords were being used as common front line soldiers, and it was clear that they were out of their element in that role, and suffering for it. Open warfare ain't there MO.
The first novel Soul Hunter had the NL fighting on the front lines for Abaddon. The second, Blood Reaver had them making a deal with the Astral Claws/ Red Corsairs to fight as part of a vanguard.
DarthMarko wrote:I think people are confusing tactics and strategy......:-)Guiliman knew how to get extra rations for hungry man in the trenches while Alpharius and Omegon infiltrated,scouted and then attacked enemy stronghold in a most unique way....
And you're confusing strategy with logistics, and still confusing tactics and strategy yourself.
Alpharius was a strategist too, lol. It was just that his strategies were in unconventional warfare. If anything, it just highlights how limited Alpharius was in his generalship portfolio. Nobody will dispute that Alpharius was the master of his particular trade, but that was what he was good at. Guilliman understood Alpharius's strategies and their effectiveness, but he called him out on how they were inefficient and unnecessarily time consuming given the role the Space Marines were supposed to fill during the Great Crusade.
Which was an amalgamation of tactics and strategies used by various military leaders, scholars, including other Primarchs, correlated into a book.
Guilliman was a leech.
Actually, much of the Codex Astartes was Gulliman's own tactics. It wasn't all stolen.
Yeah, calling Guilliman a leech is pretty dishonest and ignorant.
Guilliman wrote the thing. Most of it was probably his. He was just smart enough to gather input from his brothers and other military minds in the cases that they might have insights he hadn't thought of. There has never, ever been an implication in the fluff that Guilliman wasn't the mastermind behind the Codex Astartes. This was the Codex Astartes by Roboute Guilliman with included references and citations. This was not the Codex Astartes ed. by Roboute Guilliman.
Gulliman did write the book, but not all the info inside it came from him, some came from how fellow primarchs fought (iron warriors siege warfare etc.), I think his gift was to look at all the other legions and take the best parts and skills they had and imcorporate them into the codex astartes.
Only a complete fool would not take advantage of all the tactics and skills the other legions had to offer.
So this made him a great author, a great expert in logistics and Strategy, but he was no where as "gifted" as the Lion and Horus.
As Know no fear shows us, Gulliman was like a living computor when it came to the overall strategy, he absorbed information at an insane pace and could plan for all kinds of situations, but at the end of the day it was without any real pazzaz..
The lion and Horus were gifted in the Strategy department (horus in a diferent way) and could pull all kinds of crazy tactics out of there arses due to that.
Redcruisair wrote:Hmm I don’t quit agree with you on Curze’s scare tactics being a very efficient strategy. In fact, I consider myself one of the few, who believes the purpose of the tactics used by the Night lords to be the very opposite of what it means to be a Space marine.
I'm pretty sure that all that would mean is that "real" Space Marines are morons.
The best strategy is the one that uses up the least of your resources, and obviously Kurze's strategy was highly successful. After all, remember that Lorgar's legion acted in a manner more similar to the "average legion", but still got reprimanded for not conquering planets fast enough! Kurze never received such reprimands.
If the best strategy of saving resources revolves around not engaging your enemy and subsequently wasting your time (in my eyes,) then yeah, I guess you could call the NL a recourse-minded legion.
Nah, Lorgar got rebuked because his legion spent more time ‘converting’ than actual fighting. Also, please note the events following after, were the WB got back in the game and conquered more worlds than any other legion (including the Night Lords).
Actually, Curze did get such a reprimand. Just for different reasons.
You would have a point about it "being a waste of time" if it didn't actually work. The sheer fact that Kurze did routinely succeed at making whole worlds go compliant just by scaring them, proves you wrong. While a Legion such as the Death Guard might have assaulted a planet using traditional Astartes tactics, and conquered it in two month while sustaining 300 losses, the Night Lords would conquer a planet in one month while sustaining 3 losses.
So I really don't see how that's an inferior tactic. Dishonorable? Sure. But if it gets results than it gets results, and economy of effort is the name of the game for any strategy.
I can totally see your point friend. Regardless, I still believe Curze’s tactics to be useless, when said guy is confronted with an enemy, who does not let it self be scared so easily, or an enemy who is incapable of feeling fear. This is why you only see Night Lords dealing with wayward human worlds, and not fighting against Xeno threats (because his methods are unpractical against them.)
Yes, we can agree on his methods being efficient at subjugating lost human colonies, though his tactic fails him, when confronted with an enemy, who have no fear (space marines.) Hence why his tactics did not succeed against the Dark Angels and subsequently had his legion broken and defeated by Lion’s men.
But facing an enemy that was fearless isn't what Curze is designed for! Konrad works when he can at least unnerve an enemy and make them paranoid. And nothing unnerves the enemy like a threat from a psychopathic space batmen who regularly flay people alive to leave as a warning. Curze being bad against a xeno civilization is as much a point as saying "Angron wouldn't win a psychic duel". No he wouldn't win a psychic duel, but thats not his purpose, leave that to Magnus the red. Likewise don't ask The lion to create an all powerful space cannon, Ferrus Manus is brilliant at it, give that job to him. Vulkan, as far as I can see, is suited to killing Xenos, let Curze terrify people into compliance and let Vulkan deal with Xeno civilizations. Doing it the other way round would like asking a clock maker to create an ornate throne while paying a throne maker to create a grandfather clock, and then wondering why neither of them are very good at the jobs you put them up to do.
Admittadly his chosen tactic may be useless against an opponent like orks, but you have to remember these aren't just men in skeleton costumes, there still capable of beating everybody and generally being better than orks or the like, and like all space marine legions, they can adapt and evolve, just because Konrad Curze liked to use this tactic doesn't mean he can't use others (I always saw them as traitor Raven guard but with the bonus that they terrify as well as attack from 1000 unseen angles, which is in itself a brilliant tactic).
Prince_of_Crows wrote: I always saw them as traitor Raven guard but with the bonus that they terrify as well as attack from 1000 unseen angles, which is in itself a brilliant tactic).
Wait, you're joking right ? They should have rushed into a 1000000 traitors with a mere pocketknife (like Vulkan) and then they would have "been loyal" to you? Don't get me wrong I' like Salamanders...but c'mon
Prince_of_Crows wrote: I always saw them as traitor Raven guard but with the bonus that they terrify as well as attack from 1000 unseen angles, which is in itself a brilliant tactic).
Wait, you're joking right ? They should have rushed into a 1000000 traitors with a mere pocketknife (like Vulkan) and then they would have "been loyal" to you? Don't get me wrong I' like Salamanders...but c'mon
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that comment, but if you mean about raven guard fleeing the battle where vulkan went and did something stupid, Corax didn't allow for himself to be blinded by rage and he took a tactical decision: leave the battlefield before were wiped out to the man. Vulkan got angry and instead of doing the smart thing and replenished his losses, he did the human thing which was lashed out when angry at traitors.
Prince_of_Crows wrote: I always saw them as traitor Raven guard but with the bonus that they terrify as well as attack from 1000 unseen angles, which is in itself a brilliant tactic).
Wait, you're joking right ? They should have rushed into a 1000000 traitors with a mere pocketknife (like Vulkan) and then they would have "been loyal" to you? Don't get me wrong I' like Salamanders...but c'mon
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that comment, but if you mean about raven guard fleeing the battle where vulkan went and did something stupid, Corax didn't allow for himself to be blinded by rage and he took a tactical decision: leave the battlefield before were wiped out to the man. Vulkan got angry and instead of doing the smart thing and replenished his losses, he did the human thing which was lashed out when angry at traitors.
O sorry - I thought that you judge actions of the RG in that battle not the NL- my mistake, but there are lot's of salamanders fans who think that RG were cowards leaving battlefield....
Prince_of_Crows wrote: I always saw them as traitor Raven guard but with the bonus that they terrify as well as attack from 1000 unseen angles, which is in itself a brilliant tactic).
Wait, you're joking right ? They should have rushed into a 1000000 traitors with a mere pocketknife (like Vulkan) and then they would have "been loyal" to you? Don't get me wrong I' like Salamanders...but c'mon
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that comment, but if you mean about raven guard fleeing the battle where vulkan went and did something stupid, Corax didn't allow for himself to be blinded by rage and he took a tactical decision: leave the battlefield before were wiped out to the man. Vulkan got angry and instead of doing the smart thing and replenished his losses, he did the human thing which was lashed out when angry at traitors.
O sorry - I thought that you judge actions of the RG in that battle not the NL- my mistake, but there are lot's of salamanders fans who think that RG were cowards leaving battlefield....
I guess they can be called cowards, but Corax's actions of fleeing the battlefield weren't cowardice they were tactical decision which must of taken a lot of self control not to just see red and go berserk. I guess Iron hand fans feel the same way as the Salamander fans towards the raven guard. But no, I was talking about night lords in my previous post.
I think from the variety of names thrown into the pot, it could be argued that all of the Primarchs, with the possible exceptions of Lorgar and Magnus, were excellent tacticians. Even Angron is basically Spartacus, and that guy was no slouch. So we can probably comfortably call this a tie.
Now, if we consider strategy instead, it should be pretty obvious that Guilliman and Horus are the penultimate "big picture" guys.
And before Lorgar and Magnus fans get all mad, these two were scholars and mentors in a fraternity of soldiers and generals. Lorgar instilled his followers with zealous fervor and blind conviction (their "tactics" consist of never retreating no matter what in the face of certain death, because they are so certain of their cause), while Magnus was so OP, tactics were largely irrelevant (Ahriman had to chastise his brothers to not neglect their martial training just because their powers made it so easy, and the best among them maybe had the raw power of one of Magnus' toenail clippings).
To be fair Magnus and his Legion also sort of had reliable precognition that they could use in battle, as well as the ability to telepathically know what your enemy is doing.
Tactics aren't really necessary with that kind of gak.
Which may be what you meant by saying he was too OP for it.
Guilliman is my vote just for the fact that many of the Primarchs viewed him as such and he did conduct some of the Imperiums largest campaigns during the great crusade and afterwards during the scouring.
Void__Dragon wrote: To be fair Magnus and his Legion also sort of had reliable precognition that they could use in battle, as well as the ability to telepathically know what your enemy is doing.
Tactics aren't really necessary with that kind of gak.
Which may be what you meant by saying he was too OP for it.
Exactly. OP = overpowered.
They knew what you're going to do before you do it, they have guys reading your mind when you try to be tricky, they have instant communications with their own telepaths, the Paavoni can erase any injury that isn't immediately lethal, and they can crush tanks and shoot lightning and fireballs with their minds that make boltguns look like firecrackers. They needed about as much tactical acumen as you need playing Dawn of War on god mode. Is it any wonder Legions that fought beside them (Death Guard, Wolves) crapped their pants and went running to Nikea to testify?
Void__Dragon wrote: To be fair Magnus and his Legion also sort of had reliable precognition that they could use in battle, as well as the ability to telepathically know what your enemy is doing.
Tactics aren't really necessary with that kind of gak.
Which may be what you meant by saying he was too OP for it.
Exactly. OP = overpowered.
They knew what you're going to do before you do it, they have guys reading your mind when you try to be tricky, they have instant communications with their own telepaths, the Paavoni can erase any injury that isn't immediately lethal, and they can crush tanks and shoot lightning and fireballs with their minds that make boltguns look like firecrackers. They needed about as much tactical acumen as you need playing Dawn of War on god mode. Is it any wonder Legions that fought beside them (Death Guard, Wolves) crapped their pants and went running to Nikea to testify?
The Wolves made short work of the PDF in their parade uniforms, but once they ran into the actual Thousand Sons, despite all of their advantages (Sisters and Custodes back-up), the Wolves were on the losing side of that battle. The same thing happened on Shrike. In both cases, the Wolves only got back on the offensive once Russ showed up with his psychic howl and waves of mutants.
Omegus wrote: The Wolves made short work of the PDF in their parade uniforms, but once they ran into the actual Thousand Sons, despite all of their advantages (Sisters and Custodes back-up), the Wolves were on the losing side of that battle. The same thing happened on Shrike. In both cases, the Wolves only got back on the offensive once Russ showed up with his psychic howl and waves of mutants.
You show only advantages of the TS - and what about flashchange ???Be fair...
And what's the point of God mode (like T'kar, the only TS who I like ) when you are dead after it wears off
Omegus wrote: The Wolves made short work of the PDF in their parade uniforms, but once they ran into the actual Thousand Sons, despite all of their advantages (Sisters and Custodes back-up), the Wolves were on the losing side of that battle. The same thing happened on Shrike. In both cases, the Wolves only got back on the offensive once Russ showed up with his psychic howl and waves of mutants.
You show only advantages of the TS - and what about flashchange ???Be fair...
Like we've discussed before, it is the truth if you take what is on the page at face value. Without the arrival of Russ, backup from the Sisters and the Custodes, or the event of the flesh change, the Sons would have either one in the bag pretty easily.
Omegus wrote: The Wolves made short work of the PDF in their parade uniforms, but once they ran into the actual Thousand Sons, despite all of their advantages (Sisters and Custodes back-up), the Wolves were on the losing side of that battle. The same thing happened on Shrike. In both cases, the Wolves only got back on the offensive once Russ showed up with his psychic howl and waves of mutants.
You show only advantages of the TS - and what about flashchange ???Be fair...
Like we've discussed before, it is the truth if you take what is on the page at face value. Without the arrival of Russ, backup from the Sisters and the Custodes, or the event of the flesh change, the Sons would have either one in the bag pretty easily.
Well if grandmother had a d*ck, she would have been a grandfather....Sob didn't have any role and sons were killing them easily as Coustodians - but again I' think when the godmode wears off-easy kill
and let's speak as adults,please
DarthMarko wrote:
Well if grandmother had a d*ck, she would have been a grandfather....Sob didn't have any role and sons were killing them easily as Coustodians - but again I' think when the godmode wears off-easy kill
and let's speak as adults,please
I am not sure as to what your comment even means. Where have I spoken to you in anything other than an adult manner? Also, was using terminology like that necessary, once again I am not sure what you are getting at.
The Sisters of Battle weren't even present on Prospero, if you mean the Sisters of Silence then their role was to use their blankness to prevent the Thousand Sons from using their powers, which they did and the Custodians did their fair share of 'Sons whuppin'.
DarthMarko wrote:
Like we've discussed before, it is the truth if you take what is on the page at face value. Without the arrival of Russ, backup from the Sisters and the Custodes, or the event of the flesh change, the Sons would have either one in the bag pretty easily.
Well if grandmother had a d*ck, she would have been a grandfather....Sob didn't have any role and sons were killing them easily as Coustodians - but again I' think when the godmode wears off-easy kill
and let's speak as adults,please
I am not sure as to what your comment even means. Where have I spoken to you in anything other than an adult manner? Also, was using terminology like that necessary, once again I am not sure what you are getting at.
The Sisters of Battle weren't even present on Prospero, if you mean the Sisters of Silence then their role was to use their blankness to prevent the Thousand Sons from using their powers, which they did and the Custodians did their fair share of 'Sons whuppin'.
Fact - there is to much "IF" in your equation, like you're writing a program ( if it wasn't for a flashchange???wtf )that is why I'm teling you to speak as adult
And if you love your legion you love it with all it's flaws -FC was their biggest weaknes and their dowfnall on Prospero...
P.S. SoS sorry my mistake
Well if grandmother had a d*ck, she would have been a grandfather....Sob didn't have any role and sons were killing them easily as Coustodians - but again I' think when the godmode wears off-easy kill
and let's speak as adults,please
That's the statement you use to preface a request for a mature discussion? Immediately after talking about defecating on corpses? Even coming from a self-admitted troll, the irony is staggering.
Well if grandmother had a d*ck, she would have been a grandfather....Sob didn't have any role and sons were killing them easily as Coustodians - but again I' think when the godmode wears off-easy kill
and let's speak as adults,please
That's the statement you use to preface a request for a mature discussion? Immediately after talking about defecating on corpses? Even coming from a self-admitted troll, the irony is staggering.
Dude just read your posts...Trolling is insulting word for the trolls on your behalf
and fact is that the wolves did defile corpses when TS escaped...
DarthMarko wrote: Fact - there is to much "IF" in your equation, like you're writing a program ( if it wasn't for a flashchange???wtf )that is why I'm teling you to speak as adult
And if you love your legion you love it with all it's flaws -FC was their biggest weaknes and their dowfnall on Prospero...
P.S. SoS sorry my mistake
Perhaps you should read the post a bit closer, I haven't said IF anywhere. I am actually using the details we have been provided in the various books, are you?
I am recognising that the flesh change was an issue. Here's an IF for you - IF the Sons didn't have the flesh change, then they really would have whipped the Wolves in both circumstances.
Their downfall on Prospero was their Primarch and him shielding the approach of the Wolves fleet. If, oh damn there's another one, Magnus had not been so caught up in his own self worth, he might have formed an adequate defence of Prospero.
So you are telling me that the Space Wolves would have won the day on Shrike without the help of Russ and the Thousand Sons nearly falling to the change, also that on Prospero they would have won without the support of the Sisters of Silence and Custodian and the Thousand Sons falling to their own bad genetics?
Edit: Oh wait I do say If, if you take the page at face value, which means, if you have read the book properly you could see that the Wolves got beat up pretty bad both times.
DarthMarko wrote: Fact - there is to much "IF" in your equation, like you're writing a program ( if it wasn't for a flashchange???wtf )that is why I'm teling you to speak as adult
And if you love your legion you love it with all it's flaws -FC was their biggest weaknes and their dowfnall on Prospero...
P.S. SoS sorry my mistake
Perhaps you should read the post a bit closer, I haven't said IF anywhere. I am actually using the details we have been provided in the various books, are you?
I am recognising that the flesh change was an issue. Here's an IF for you - IF the Sons didn't have theflesh change, then they really would have whipped the Wolves in both circumstances.
Their downfall on Prospero was their Primarch and him shielding the approach of the Wolves fleet. If, oh damn there's another one, Magnus had not been so caught up in his own self worth, he might have formed an adequate defence of Prospero.
So you are telling me that the Space Wolves would have won the day on Shrike without the help of Russ and the Thousand Sons nearly falling to the change, also that on Prospero they would have won without the support of the Sisters of Silence and Custodian and the Thousand Sons falling to their own bad genetics?
No they would be choked to death on Shrike,I admit that - but bringing SoS is like bringing a bolter, you don't fight a psyker with a stick, and btw in TS how much is the role of SoS ?Not so much..because Russ didn't want to bring many...Custodians? T'kar IIRC is killing them with ease even braging about it...All I'm saying that they didn't had any major role in burning of Prospero - flashchange did - if it wasn't for that - they would repeled the wolves and any other legion - but again,please don't even mention that again
- they have a god mode, afterwards they are dead...what's the point of god mode then?
First of all, it's the flesh change, not flashchange. Second, it wasn't what lost the day for the Thousand Sons, but rather the huge concentration of psychic power/the warp itself spilling over into reality that caused their powers to dial up to 11 and their familiars became powerful enough to exert more influence/take over. When T'Kar went all Chaos Spawn, he was still fully in control of his powers and was crushing Wolves left and right, but realized what he became and chose to let himself be destroyed.
Russ didn't want to bring many Sisters? This is pure conjecture. No major role? Until one of the TS (can't remember his name) figured out they were there and started sniping them, the TS were significantly impacted by the anti psychic bubbles. As for Custodes, they are quite capable warriors, and they weren't dying in any greater numbers than the Wolves they accompanied. And where did this corpse desecration happen? I don't recall that, and it certainly doesn't seem in character for the Wolves to do something like that. Burn the bodies? Sure. But desecrate them? What are they, Night Lords? The Wolves are donkey-caves, but they aren't evil.
And you are a troll because you admitted to being a troll. You said you specifically start arguments and make inflammatory statements because you "feed off of it". This thread is a perfect example. It was a discussion about tactical acumen of primarchs, and you turned it into another SW vs. TS argument.
Fact is, no one won that battle. The Wolves ended up helping Horus's cause, and lost many men and some esteem in the eyes of Malcador. The Emperor lost many Custodians and Sisters, and more importantly, an entire loyal Legion who would have been ideal for combating the upcoming Chaos incursion. The Thousand Sons lost, well, everything. What's the point of god mode? The point is that Tzeench was screwing with them the entire time, from the moment the Primarchs were spirited away, to the instance Russ got that "lucky" shot in. And the point is that their powers made the Sons arrogant and short-sighted (ironic for a Legion who praised clairvoyance and pre-cognition), and are the reason why Magnus probably wasn't that great a tactician by Primarch standards, which is the topic for this thread.
Omegus wrote: First of all, it's the flesh change, not flashchange. Second, it wasn't what lost the day for the Thousand Sons, but rather the huge concentration of psychic power/the warp itself spilling over into reality that their caused their powers to dial up to 11 and their familiars became powerful enough to exert more influence/take over. When T'Kar went all Chaos Spawn, he was still fully in control of his powers and was crushing Wolves left and right, but realized what he became and chose to let himself be destroyed.
Russ didn't want to bring many Sisters? This is pure conjecture. No major role? Until one of the TS (can't remember his name) figured out they were there and started sniping them, the TS were significantly impacted by the anti psychic bubbles. As for Custodes, they are quite capable warriors, and they weren't dying in any greater numbers than the Wolves they accompanied. And where did this corpse desecration happen? I don't recall that, and it certainly doesn't seem in character for the Wolves to do something like that. Burn the bodies? Certainly? But desecrate them? What are they, Night Lords?
And you are a troll because you admitted to being a troll. You said you specifically start arguments and make inflammatory statements because you "feed off of it". This thread is a perfect example. It was a discussion about tactical acumen of primarchs, and you turned it into another SW vs. TS argument.
Fact is, no one won that battle. The Wolves ended up helping Horus's cause, and lost many men and some esteem in the eyes of Malcador. The Emperor lost many Custodians and Sisters, and more importantly, an entire loyal Legion who would have been ideal for combating the upcoming Chaos incursion. The Thousand Sons lost, well, everything. What's the point of god mode? The point is that Tzeench was screwing with them the entire time, from the moment the Primarchs were spirited away, to the instance Russ got that "lucky" shot in. And the point is that their powers made the Sons arrogant and short-sighted (ironic for a Legion who praised clairvoyance and pre-cognition), and are the reason why Magnus probably wasn't that great a tactician by Primarch standards, which is the topic for this thread.
That lucky shot of Russ - according to old codex was very deliberate and landed right where he intended to (yeah,he knew Magnus and his weaknes)...they changed it later so that it looks like wild brute punch & conspiracy theory....
And FACT - SW didn't have much corpses after Prospero - they lost much more in the The Great Scouring...and I didnt start this - you did - by constnantly exalting TS....,
I mentioned Magnus as being relatively terrible at tactics because he was so OP psychically. That's not exalting the TS. I'm not a fan of the TS except for Ahriman and Phosis T'kar (the only ones who possessed some humility). I fly the Tzeench banner because I am a fan of power, pure and simple.
And yes, that's why I put "lucky" in quotation marks. Ahriman describes the attack as a flailing, blind lunge that "just happened" to hit Magnus' one vulnerable spot, but he's not exactly a brawler and is a potentially biased onlooker. The SW codex describes it as a deliberate move, but as with all codices, any truth is tinged with hyperbolic propaganda. The real truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Though off-balance and being pushed back, Russ drew his experience as a brawler, and took a calculated risk to make the best of a bad situation. Emelianenko used to do the same crap all the time. He'd be getting beat down, then throw a seemingly wild and aimless haymayker; sometimes all he caught was air, other times he popped them in the chin and that was all she wrote. In either case, luck had nothing to do with it, one way or the other. Every one on that planet was Tzeench's puppet, even if they didn't know it. Now THAT's power.
Omegus wrote: I mentioned Magnus as being relatively terrible at tactics because he was so OP psychically. That's not exalting the TS. I'm not a fan of the TS except for Ahriman and Phosis T'kar (the only ones who possessed some humility). I fly the Tzeench banner because I am a fan of power, pure and simple.
And yes, that's why I put "lucky" in quotation marks. Ahriman describes the attack as a flailing, blind lunge that "just happened" to hit Magnus' one vulnerable spot, but he's not exactly a brawler and is a potentially biased onlooker. The SW codex describes it as a deliberate move, but as with all codices, any truth is tinged with hyperbolic propaganda. The real truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Though off-balance and being pushed back, Russ drew his experience as a brawler, and took a calculated risk to make the best of a bad situation. Emelianenko used to do the same crap all the time. He'd be getting beat down, then throw a seemingly wild and aimless haymayker; sometimes all he caught was air, other times he popped them in the chin and that was all she wrote. In either case, luck had nothing to do with it, one way or the other. Every one on that planet was Tzeench's puppet, even if they didn't know it. Now THAT's power.
So peace in the future brother ??? Sorry for my overreaction but I noticed that you always like to put down certain pup chapter in your posts ( calling them obidiant dogs,snow flakes etc )...and I don't like that very much -
off topic - I'm more of a Cro cop fan than Emelianenko:-)
DarthMarko wrote: Sorry for my overreaction but I noticed that you always like to put down certain pup chapter in your posts ( calling them obidiant dogs,snow flakes etc )...and I don't like that very much -
Here's a pro-tip for being on the Internet: Don't take things so personally. In the end, we're only talking about plastic toy soldiers, and everyone is entitled to their opinions. That includes what people think about the Space Wolves, even if those opinions doesn't agree with your own opinions of them.
Back to topic: Im surprised the Lion has received so many votes for "best Primarch tactician". I understand there's a number of sources that state he's the best tactician, but I don't think I've seen any examples of his tactical acumen.
DarthMarko wrote: Sorry for my overreaction but I noticed that you always like to put down certain pup chapter in your posts ( calling them obidiant dogs,snow flakes etc )...and I don't like that very much -
Here's a pro-tip for being on the Internet: Don't take things so personally. In the end, we're only talking about plastic toy soldiers, and everyone is entitled to their opinions. That includes what people think about the Space Wolves, even if those opinions doesn't agree with your own opinions of them.
Back to topic: Im surprised the Lion has received so many votes for "best Primarch tactician". I understand there's a number of sources that state he's the best tactician, but I don't think I've seen any examples of his tactical acumen.
There is no doubt in my mind that Lupercal is the best general out of them all. Although I do think that Guilliman has Horus fairly outclassed and outranked when it comes to strategy and tactic. However, I do believe that the Lion is the best primarch tactician out of them all, with only Creed being able to match him for tactical understanding.
Horus was the first found, and has had more hands on experience than anyone when it came to conquering a galaxy, taking orders, and learning from the Emperor himself. As a result, I believe no one can contest him in matters of diplomacy, strategy, tactics, or leading galaxy conquering armies across millions of worlds thousands of light years apart. He is ot the best in any of these fields, but if there was a primarch capable of being Warmaster, it would easily be Horus.
Guilliman is a great leader also, he has built up a steady, solid and strong empire. To do so, you would need to have alot of imagination, vitality, brain, reasoning, loyal men, adequately trained men, knowledgeable men, and power. To have all of this is no small feat, in fact, to gain all of this would already make you a great man. And then to take all of this and put it together to build an efficient and self-sustaining empire, as well as go out and conquer the stars speaks volumes when it comes to the Ultramarines primarch. Clearly Guilliman has more than earned his place when it comes to a list of the top leaders of the twenty.
The Lion however is the winner when it comes to fighting wars. It was one of the reasons I chose the Dark Angels as my Astartes. Although there are not many books on the Lion, nor many tales that speak testimony to his genius as a primarch, the few that are out show pretty clear proof that he knows fairly well how to fight wars, and more importantly, how to win them, and win them well, bringing ruin upon his enemies while leaving his force intact, strong, and effective. In fact, the only one to have had a longer list of victories and titles was Lupercal himself, and the one under the Lion for victory counts is Russ.
LumenPraebeo wrote: There is no doubt in my mind that Lupercal is the best general out of them all. Although I do think that Guilliman has Horus fairly outclassed and outranked when it comes to strategy and tactic. However, I do believe that the Lion is the best primarch tactician out of them all, with only Creed being able to match him for tactical understanding.
Horus was the first found, and has had more hands on experience than anyone when it came to conquering a galaxy, taking orders, and learning from the Emperor himself. As a result, I believe no one can contest him in matters of diplomacy, strategy, tactics, or leading galaxy conquering armies across millions of worlds thousands of light years apart. He is ot the best in any of these fields, but if there was a primarch capable of being Warmaster, it would easily be Horus.
Guilliman is a great leader also, he has built up a steady, solid and strong empire. To do so, you would need to have alot of imagination, vitality, brain, reasoning, loyal men, adequately trained men, knowledgeable men, and power. To have all of this is no small feat, in fact, to gain all of this would already make you a great man. And then to take all of this and put it together to build an efficient and self-sustaining empire, as well as go out and conquer the stars speaks volumes when it comes to the Ultramarines primarch. Clearly Guilliman has more than earned his place when it comes to a list of the top leaders of the twenty.
The Lion however is the winner when it comes to fighting wars. It was one of the reasons I chose the Dark Angels as my Astartes. Although there are not many books on the Lion, nor many tales that speak testimony to his genius as a primarch, the few that are out show pretty clear proof that he knows fairly well how to fight wars, and more importantly, how to win them, and win them well, bringing ruin upon his enemies while leaving his force intact, strong, and effective. In fact, the only one to have had a longer list of victories and titles was Lupercal himself, and the one under the Lion for victory counts is Russ.
Give some example, where did Lion shine ?No offence,I see that people rank him high but I would like to know more.....like for example when Alpha legion loses Alpharius and then chase of Um ( thats tactic and mental discipline )
The primarch's, like the astartes, weren't built equal, but in terms of skill. They all had roughly the same amount of skill but its placed in different categories. For the Emperor to create 20 legions and pour all his time into 20 super beings of almost demigod powers, it would be a massive waste to have 2 legions (and so 2 primarchs) employed to do the same thing with one being better at the thing there both trained to do. So it stands for good reason that 2 aren't employed to do the same thing.
On top of this each Primarch was flawed (possibly created by life experiences or engineered by the chaos gods). For example The Lion, while somehow being a great tactician (haven't seen any example of this yet but I'm still looking, beating the night lords doesn't count because the night lords aren't suited to fighting a fearless foe, same problem as fighting Angron in a psychic duel, not a massive feat) he was woefully bad when it came to people skills, the reason he died and his legion got torn in half is primarily to do with this, he wouldn't give credit where credit was defiantly due. and so he spawned unrest in his own legion.
Same for Guilliman, while he had several hundred thousand marines and his own small star empire, Guilliman was massively pompous with a large ego (from what I can gather from some of the books) and so many primarchs and legions (despite what Matt ward is trying to force down our throat) didn't like him, so outside his own empire he commanded little respect amongst the other legions. The biggest example of that is the alpha legion, Giulliman didn't like that the alpha legion did things their own way and so threw their toys out the pram.
With Fulgrim, we all know he was massively vain and arrogant. He was also prone to making rash claims (i.e: the Laer) and then pushing his legion to meet what he said. Though one of the big ones is that by saying how great he was and his legion was, he gave them a massive sense of their own bloated worth and their ego swelled.
Even Horus Lupercal had his flaws. Often it was described as if he could either win a war with minimum casualties and deaths, but a very unheralded victory, or he could win the war with a massive glorious battle but he lost many men and the planet was devastated, he would take the latter option. His casualties were glossed over because he was the emperors favorite.
LumenPraebeo wrote: There is no doubt in my mind that Lupercal is the best general out of them all. Although I do think that Guilliman has Horus fairly outclassed and outranked when it comes to strategy and tactic. However, I do believe that the Lion is the best primarch tactician out of them all, with only Creed being able to match him for tactical understanding.
Horus was the first found, and has had more hands on experience than anyone when it came to conquering a galaxy, taking orders, and learning from the Emperor himself. As a result, I believe no one can contest him in matters of diplomacy, strategy, tactics, or leading galaxy conquering armies across millions of worlds thousands of light years apart. He is ot the best in any of these fields, but if there was a primarch capable of being Warmaster, it would easily be Horus.
Guilliman is a great leader also, he has built up a steady, solid and strong empire. To do so, you would need to have alot of imagination, vitality, brain, reasoning, loyal men, adequately trained men, knowledgeable men, and power. To have all of this is no small feat, in fact, to gain all of this would already make you a great man. And then to take all of this and put it together to build an efficient and self-sustaining empire, as well as go out and conquer the stars speaks volumes when it comes to the Ultramarines primarch. Clearly Guilliman has more than earned his place when it comes to a list of the top leaders of the twenty.
The Lion however is the winner when it comes to fighting wars. It was one of the reasons I chose the Dark Angels as my Astartes. Although there are not many books on the Lion, nor many tales that speak testimony to his genius as a primarch, the few that are out show pretty clear proof that he knows fairly well how to fight wars, and more importantly, how to win them, and win them well, bringing ruin upon his enemies while leaving his force intact, strong, and effective. In fact, the only one to have had a longer list of victories and titles was Lupercal himself, and the one under the Lion for victory counts is Russ.
Give some example, where did Lion shine ?No offence,I see that people rank him high but I would like to know more.....like for example when Alpha legion loses Alpharius and then chase of Um ( thats tactic and mental discipline )
I'm in the same camp as you here about lion El'jonson, I remember people saying about him fighting the Night Lords during the heresy, I don't rank it as very brilliant as the Night lords are ill suited to fight space marines in their prime tactic (You cant scare something that is fearless), same thing as will Alpharius win if he and his legion are against Iron warriors, and he's the one inside the fortress? Or, will Angron defeat Magnus in a psychic duel?
Commissar41.0 wrote: Magnus duh he see into the future so he knoews how to deploy his forces accordingly......simple people
Thats not tactical, you still have to know what to do to counter a ploy. Relying on psychic farsight can actually have a negative effect, your not use to having to think what they might do because you know what they will do, so if they can override this and stop you from seeing the future you have to think like your enemy, which would be hard if you spent all your life just knowing, you wouldn't have to develop those skills.
Just like with the Thousand sons, Ahariman basically had to chastise his brothers into training with a blade and not just fireballing everything, because face it, you have the power to incinerate anything with your mind, would you bother to train with a sword? Powers makes everything easier, but when you rely on them like the Thousand sons did, your screwed when an enemy brings something that they can counter like the sisters of silence.
Prince_of_Crows wrote:The primarch's, like the astartes, weren't built equal, but in terms of skill. They all had roughly the same amount of skill but its placed in different categories. For the Emperor to create 20 legions and pour all his time into 20 super beings of almost demigod powers, it would be a massive waste to have 2 legions (and so 2 primarchs) employed to do the same thing with one being better at the thing there both trained to do. So it stands for good reason that 2 aren't employed to do the same thing.
I honestly don't think the Emperor put that much thought in it. As much as I disliked Deliverance Lost, between it and Outcast Dead, it seems the Primarchs' creation was a series of experiments that the Emperor himself didn't quite know how they would turn out. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had to purge two Legions for mutations and instability. The Primarchs adapted to and were shaped by their experiences. Guilliman was raised by a statesman and a general, so he became an excellent statesman and general. Both Corax and Kurze grew up in environments that required extreme stealth, so their bodies adapted to grant them this ability. Yet where Corax had a support group of friends and family, and grew to be a "good guy", Kurze grew up all alone and became a psychopath. The Lion grew up in a forest haunted by Chaos beasts and with mysterious aliens whispering in his ear, so he became paranoid and incapable of reading humans.
Of course, ironically, the one who benefited the most from the Emperor's tutelage also absorbed his immense hubris of "I do the same things countless despots and tyrants did before me, but it's okay when I do it, because I'm right".
DarthMarko wrote:So peace in the future brother ???
There is no peace amongst the interwebz, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of the thirsting trolls.
I honestly don't think the Emperor put that much thought in it. As much as I disliked Deliverance Lost, between it and Outcast Dead, it seems the Primarchs' creation was a series of experiments that the Emperor himself didn't quite know how they would turn out. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had to purge two Legions for mutations and instability.
But, could the mutation and instability have been caused by their impromptu sojourn in the warp or their new home world rather than the Emperors dabblings? The Emperor had intended all 20 to grow up on Terra so he could mould them to what he wanted, the Chaos Gods intervention prevented this.
I think that the Emperor had intentions for each Primarch, but as you say, their individual upbringing on their new homeworlds possibly put pay to this notion. Some, if not all, clearly have some lean towards certain aspect of combat.
I honestly don't think the Emperor put that much thought in it. As much as I disliked Deliverance Lost, between it and Outcast Dead, it seems the Primarchs' creation was a series of experiments that the Emperor himself didn't quite know how they would turn out. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had to purge two Legions for mutations and instability.
But, could the mutation and instability have been caused by their impromptu sojourn in the warp or their new home world rather than the Emperors dabblings? The Emperor had intended all 20 to grow up on Terra so he could mould them to what he wanted, the Chaos Gods intervention prevented this.
I think that the Emperor had intentions for each Primarch, but as you say, their individual upbringing on their new homeworlds possibly put pay to this notion. Some, if not all, clearly have some lean towards certain aspect of combat.
I'm going to say its probably a mix of several factors. If they stayed on terra chances are the emperor would of trained extensively in a certain tactic. Corax could turn invisible in the shadow anyway, hinting that's what was required of him for the emperors plan. Gulliman seemed to be very adept at polotics anyway. However I believe the environments they found themselves in altered the roles of some. Lorgar, who I believe was more than likely meant to be a leader of men before being spirited away, still fufilled that role, its just not as an army commander, but as religious preacher. While Fulgrim was meant to be a skilled to perfection swordsmaster (i.e: rainiung down a few precision blows and killing swiftly), the world he landed on was in disrepair, and through fixing it his own ego grew into the bloated monster it is today.
An argument could be made that Alpharius was perhaps the greatest tactical genius of all with his doctrine of infiltration and annihilation. Striking from the shadows is sometimes seen as cowardly but it seems to get the job done pretty efficiently for the Alpha Legion time and time again.
Bloodfrenzy187 wrote: An argument could be made that Alpharius was perhaps the greatest tactical genius of all with his doctrine of infiltration and annihilation. Striking from the shadows is sometimes seen as cowardly but it seems to get the job done pretty efficiently for the Alpha Legion time and time again.
I do agree with you, btwRG guerilla tactic won battles also which made Corax unpopular with his brothers...
Bloodfrenzy187 wrote: An argument could be made that Alpharius was perhaps the greatest tactical genius of all with his doctrine of infiltration and annihilation. Striking from the shadows is sometimes seen as cowardly but it seems to get the job done pretty efficiently for the Alpha Legion time and time again.
That argument couldn't be made because guerrilla warfare and espionage aren't tactics, they're strategies.
Bloodfrenzy187 wrote: An argument could be made that Alpharius was perhaps the greatest tactical genius of all with his doctrine of infiltration and annihilation. Striking from the shadows is sometimes seen as cowardly but it seems to get the job done pretty efficiently for the Alpha Legion time and time again.
That argument couldn't be made because guerrilla warfare and espionage aren't tactics, they're strategies.
O come on DUDE- should we go again with that FING....
Actually it is kind of an important distinction. Its why Horus was named Warmaster and not the Lion type of important.
If people would stop using the words wrong it would go a long way to not talking in circles or people randomly saying who their favorite Primarch is.
Strategy and Tactics are two very different things.
Also just because one person like one strategy doesnt actually mean it is the best one out there. I know of arguments that would say that Gurreilla warfare is actually a very bad strategy but that depends on a whole host of factors. Some strategies are only useful in certain situations, and some are worthless in orthers.
Galdos wrote: Actually it is kind of an important distinction. Its why Horus was named Warmaster and not the Lion type of important.
If people would stop using the words wrong it would go a long way to not talking in circles or people randomly saying who their favorite Primarch is.
Strategy and Tactics are two very different things.
Also just because one person like one strategy doesnt actually mean it is the best one out there. I know of arguments that would say that Gurreilla warfare is actually a very bad strategy but that depends on a whole host of factors. Some strategies are only useful in certain situations, and some are worthless in orthers.
To quote the book "Galaxy in flames" Horus was a warmaster because he never "LOSES" ....
Ya, and he doesnt lose because of how good at strategy he is.
It is actually possible for the Lion to be better at tactics than Horus but if Horus is LEAGUES better than Lion at strat while the Lion is only slightly better at tactics, Horus will win every time.
Galdos wrote: Actually it is kind of an important distinction. Its why Horus was named Warmaster and not the Lion type of important.
The reason as I saw that Horus was Warmaster was because:
1: the Emperor favoured him massively.
2: He was a very good tactician and strategist.
2: He was pally with all the Primarchs and their legions. He accepted the guys that no body else did, mortarion, Magnus and Konrad were called freaks by a lot of the others, while Alpharius was more or less trained under Horus's command for the first few months when he was found and he found common ground with a lot of the legions, Sanguinius for example, who was said that the 2 were good friends. Hell he wasn't hot headed over psychic powers, understood that different ways of war were needed to win (wasn't like a certain blue mary sue marine who got all arrogant with the Alpha Legion, saying "My legions better than yours because I have the biggest legion, more worlds and I started 200 years before you did, so you can't fight as well") and he was compassionate towards other legions, meaning that he garnered support from many. He was humble too, saying that Sanguinius should of been warmaster and not him.
Hell on top of this he was so close to the emperors power it was extraordinary (tho it asks questions about big E as to why someone almost a carbon copy of himself fell to chaos).
I reckon that if it was anybody but Horus there would be public outcry, but most people liked horus so electing him was the best thing to do on many levels.
Okay I wasnt actually being literal. There are a whole host of reasons why Horus was declared Warmaster like Prince of Crows said.
What I meant is that the difference between Strategy and Tactics is worth noting because there are different answers depending on what we are talking about
Horus Lupercal was the best guy for the job - simple...Sang is better as a Martyr, and think if Sang was warmaster we would never have a wonderful thing called "heresy":-)
2: He was pally with all the Primarchs and their legions. He accepted the guys that no body else did, mortarion, Magnus and Konrad were called freaks by a lot of the others, while Alpharius was more or less trained under Horus's command for the first few months when he was found and he found common ground with a lot of the legions, Sanguinius for example, who was said that the 2 were good friends. Hell he wasn't hot headed over psychic powers, understood that different ways of war were needed to win (wasn't like a certain blue mary sue marine who got all arrogant with the Alpha Legion, saying "My legions better than yours because I have the biggest legion, more worlds and I started 200 years before you did, so you can't fight as well") and he was compassionate towards other legions, meaning that he garnered support from many. He was humble too, saying that Sanguinius should of been warmaster and not him.
Hell on top of this he was so close to the emperors power it was extraordinary (tho it asks questions about big E as to why someone almost a carbon copy of himself fell to chaos).
I reckon that if it was anybody but Horus there would be public outcry, but most people liked horus so electing him was the best thing to do on many levels.
I agree with most of what you said, except that I think the Roboute hate is a bit overblown, and Horus pre-fall wasn't near the Emperor's power, he doesn't seem to have any active psychic abilities. Even Lorgar, a lesser psyker than Magnus, telepathically commanded him.
I agree with everything else though.
It was IIRC explicitly stated that Horus's biggest objective asset over the other Primarchs was diplomacy, aided by a supposed humble exterior that made him seem more relateable. Compare to Magnus, who is certainly charismatic, but it became very apparent to that psyker remembrancer that Magnus didn't share the humility his second in command, Ahriman did.
War is more than just fighting, there is tremendous effort being put out to supply resources, manpower, and technology. The most successful armies have all three, plus on top of this, they have tactics, strategy, speed, vitality, and are capable of extreme adaptability...which might also be a branch of technology, not really sure.
Anyway, that is on the front of supplying a successful army. But there's also diplomacy, rather than conquer an enemy through martial strength, you can bring them to your side and use them as allies. You can learn their culture, and find advantages and new ways, new technology, gain more resources.
All of these things tie in, and one missing might not have much effect in the short term, but added together, the tiniest detail down to raising a child who is strong, healthy, and smart has created and brought destruction of empires.
Military power is needed for defense, as well as killing an enemy, and wars are waged when an enemy is smart and knows how to avoid being killed. That's what got us guns and tanks in the first place. And the only way a war can be started is if you have a society going with enough materials, knowledge, and culture, opposing something similar. To understand the basis of this is to know how to make each and every flow of action within a civilization work toward what you want. And hopefully, with enough effort, to create the weapon or the bullet that strikes the killing or decisive blow that will win you that war.
I think Horus knows this, and learned this from the Emperor himself, and that's the reason why he was chosen as Warmaster, and the reason why he is unwilling to go up against a combination of the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels. As great and knowing as he is, this is only the knowledge that he alone possesses, whereas in his three brothers, there lies a conglomerate of all three, within three different minds.
MarsNZ wrote: The imminent arrival of Guilliman at the head of his Legion caused the Traitors to abandon the siege of Terra.
And the Space Wolves, IIRC, and another legion whose name eludes me at the moment.
As well, the arrival of the other legions isn't what "caused the Traitors to abandon the Siege of Terra", it was Horus getting blown to freakin bits that caused them to abandon the siege of Terra.
MarsNZ wrote: The imminent arrival of Guilliman at the head of his Legion caused the Traitors to abandon the siege of Terra.
And the Space Wolves, IIRC, and another legion whose name eludes me at the moment.
As well, the arrival of the other legions isn't what "caused the Traitors to abandon the Siege of Terra", it was Horus getting blown to freakin bits that caused them to abandon the siege of Terra.
BlaxicanX wrote: IIRC, and another legion whose name eludes me at the moment.
Dark Angels
I feel that the forgetting of The dark angels were more of a dig (apologies if not), kind of how the dark angels are often joked to being renamed the forgotten rather than the unforgiven.
MarsNZ wrote: The imminent arrival of Guilliman at the head of his Legion caused the Traitors to abandon the siege of Terra.
And the Space Wolves, IIRC, and another legion whose name eludes me at the moment.
As well, the arrival of the other legions isn't what "caused the Traitors to abandon the Siege of Terra", it was Horus getting blown to freakin bits that caused them to abandon the siege of Terra.
Yes but Horus only died because of the arrival of the Loyalist caused Horus to gamble an all or nothing plan.
So in a way it is okay to say what he said. The traitors did stop their siege of the palace when word came because they went with plan B.
The problem with that logic is that you can take it and run with it.
Horus only confronted the Emperor because of the imminent arrival of the other legions. But the other legions only managed to arrived because the Night Lords, Thousand Sons and Word Bearers failed to defeat them. Those legions failed to defeat them because yadayadayada and so on and so on and so fourth. Obviously, there was a huge chain of events that ultimately led to the Traitors defeat. Trying to make one specific event more significant than the rest is pointless.
As well, you have to take into consideration that while the other loyalist legions's arrival is what forced Horus' hand, it's not what caused him to lose- thus there is no direct cause and affect there. Even with the Loyalist's arrival, Horus could have killed the Emperor in there fight. He would have probably just been killed by the loyalist reinforcements, but the Emperor would be dead. IIRC Horus managed to mortally wound the Emperor but hesitated before delivering the killing blow, thus giving the Emperor a window to one-shot him. That hesitation had nothing to do with the Loyalist arrival.
Similarly, the loyalist reinforcements had nothing to do with the traitor legions turning tail. If Horus hadn't died then they would have stayed and probably fought to the death. Hell, even with Horus dead, they could have chosen to stay and fight to the death anyway. They chose not to.
Word Bearers didn't really fail. They were instrumental in creating the warp storms that stifled Imperial communications and travel, and killed something like 100,000 Ultramarines. They basically took the Ultras out of the fight (it remains to be seen which version they will go with, since some accounts list the Ultras among the approaching Legions, while others omit them).
Thousand Sons were not part of the betrayal, and indeed were betrayed by their own Primarch.
The Night Lords were renegades, not rebels, and Kurze just wanted to lash out as much as possible to prove a point. His Legion avoided direct confrontation with the Dark Angels, and struck mostly civilian or lightly-defended military supply targets before the Siege of Terra. Their goal was to distract the Dark Angels and keep them out of the battle.
It's interesting to think what would happen if the Legions were to arrive earlier (wasn't aware of this Russ/Kion story... more short-sighted sentimentality from the Wolves, what else is new ). The Emperor teleporting onto Horus' flagship was as much an act of desperation as Horus lowering his shields. If the loyalist reinforcements arrived before the gates were breached, the battle could have gone very differently. I guess we'll never know.
? The night lords were on Terra during the siege, they fought mainly against the blood angels inside the palace. Malcharion, a night lord captain, killed 3 captains in one day of battle, a famous blood angel captain, a dark angel captain, and i believe a white scar captain.
BlaxicanX wrote: The problem with that logic is that you can take it and run with it.
Horus only confronted the Emperor because of the imminent arrival of the other legions. But the other legions only managed to arrived because the Night Lords, Thousand Sons and Word Bearers failed to defeat them. Those legions failed to defeat them because yadayadayada and so on and so on and so fourth. Obviously, there was a huge chain of events that ultimately led to the Traitors defeat. Trying to make one specific event more significant than the rest is pointless.
As well, you have to take into consideration that while the other loyalist legions's arrival is what forced Horus' hand, it's not what caused him to lose- thus there is no direct cause and affect there. Even with the Loyalist's arrival, Horus could have killed the Emperor in there fight. He would have probably just been killed by the loyalist reinforcements, but the Emperor would be dead. IIRC Horus managed to mortally wound the Emperor but hesitated before delivering the killing blow, thus giving the Emperor a window to one-shot him. That hesitation had nothing to do with the Loyalist arrival.
Similarly, the loyalist reinforcements had nothing to do with the traitor legions turning tail. If Horus hadn't died then they would have stayed and probably fought to the death. Hell, even with Horus dead, they could have chosen to stay and fight to the death anyway. They chose not to.
I didnt mean for a fact that when one says "The imminent arrival of Guilliman at the head of his Legion caused the Traitors to abandon the siege of Terra. " it is true. I mean that the statement is KIND OF right. That is because When Horus heard the loyalist were coming, he knew he had no chance so he prepared to lower his shields of his ships knowing the Emperor would come. That is fact, he ONLY lowered the shields because of the reforcements. Now the reforcements were coming because the others failed to stop them yes so you could KIND OF say that Horus lowered the shield because the reforcements stopped the loyalist because that is pretty much true.People dont because the farther back you go, though techinically true, just doesnt seem.... I dont know the word im looking for, like it seems like you are reaching. The most immediate cause is the one you focus on and you CAN mention the cause before that but anything else is just reaching and no one would say it.
The reforcements did not cause Horus to lose the war thats correct but because Horus died it KIND OF does, it is simply stretching the saying.
Horus did not hesitate, he was distracted. The Guardsman/Terminator/Custodian (depending on your fluff) ran in and distracted him. When the Emperor saw that Horus was TRUELLY corrupted, the Emperor actually TRIED for the first time in the battle.
Now I have always heard it that with Horus death, the legions turned and ran. Now if that was becasue the Reforcements were coming ALSO or if Horus death was good enough I dont know.
Omegus wrote: Word Bearers didn't really fail. They were instrumental in creating the warp storms that stifled Imperial communications and travel, and killed something like 100,000 Ultramarines. They basically took the Ultras out of the fight (it remains to be seen which version they will go with, since some accounts list the Ultras among the approaching Legions, while others omit them)..
That's fairly easy to explain. Old background (2nd through 5th edition, basically), it was the Wolves and Angels on their own - Ultramarines were succesfully detained from interfering with the Siege by the Word Bearers.
With GWs ever-increasing hard-on for the boys in blue, this has recently (at least, in BL publications, I think) been retconned to them suddenly jumping from the other side of the galaxy to be the main force arriving to relieve the siege. Also, IIRC, the worlds Russ insisted on saving/reconquering were of great strategic value in retaking the galaxy after the end of the Heresy, so it wasn't just sentimentalism on his part.
Finally, Horus' hesistation used to not be a hesitation as such, it was an Imperial Guardsmen called Ollianus Pious who jumped in the line of fire to protect his Emperor, got obliterated for his trouble. Seeing Horus casually snuff the life of one so noble made the Emp realise his son was truly lost, and he let loose with the entirety of his psychic might and killed Horus.
Rogal Dorn drove the Thousand Sons off (like,shew-shew )and the guy in the Gold armor directed the surviving librarians of the BA and IF to block the attacks of the TS...
and sorry but I don't see Guilliman in any way because of the WB...
BlaxicanX wrote: The problem with that logic is that you can take it and run with it.
Horus only confronted the Emperor because of the imminent arrival of the other legions. But the other legions only managed to arrived because the Night Lords, Thousand Sons and Word Bearers failed to defeat them. Those legions failed to defeat them because yadayadayada and so on and so on and so fourth. Obviously, there was a huge chain of events that ultimately led to the Traitors defeat. Trying to make one specific event more significant than the rest is pointless.
As well, you have to take into consideration that while the other loyalist legions's arrival is what forced Horus' hand, it's not what caused him to lose- thus there is no direct cause and affect there. Even with the Loyalist's arrival, Horus could have killed the Emperor in there fight. He would have probably just been killed by the loyalist reinforcements, but the Emperor would be dead. IIRC Horus managed to mortally wound the Emperor but hesitated before delivering the killing blow, thus giving the Emperor a window to one-shot him. That hesitation had nothing to do with the Loyalist arrival.
Similarly, the loyalist reinforcements had nothing to do with the traitor legions turning tail. If Horus hadn't died then they would have stayed and probably fought to the death. Hell, even with Horus dead, they could have chosen to stay and fight to the death anyway. They chose not to.
I didnt mean for a fact that when one says "The imminent arrival of Guilliman at the head of his Legion caused the Traitors to abandon the siege of Terra. " it is true. I mean that the statement is KIND OF right. That is because When Horus heard the loyalist were coming, he knew he had no chance so he prepared to lower his shields of his ships knowing the Emperor would come. That is fact, he ONLY lowered the shields because of the reforcements. Now the reforcements were coming because the others failed to stop them yes so you could KIND OF say that Horus lowered the shield because the reforcements stopped the loyalist because that is pretty much true.People dont because the farther back you go, though techinically true, just doesnt seem.... I dont know the word im looking for, like it seems like you are reaching. The most immediate cause is the one you focus on and you CAN mention the cause before that but anything else is just reaching and no one would say it.
The reforcements did not cause Horus to lose the war thats correct but because Horus died it KIND OF does, it is simply stretching the saying. Horus did not hesitate, he was distracted. The Guardsman/Terminator/Custodian (depending on your fluff) ran in and distracted him. When the Emperor saw that Horus was TRUELLY corrupted, the Emperor actually TRIED for the first time in the battle.
Now I have always heard it that with Horus death, the legions turned and ran. Now if that was becasue the Reforcements were coming ALSO or if Horus death was good enough I dont know.
You're saying that I'm reaching, while simultaneously stating that while I'm absolutely right, from a "certain point of view he's "KINDA" right.".
Think about that, for a moment.
Omegus wrote: I was referring to the implication that they somehow failed in their goal, which they did not.
That's a non-sequituer. Horus' ultimate goal was to use those legions to prevent the Loyalists from reinforcing the Emperor on Terra.
The traitor legions failed to prevent those loyalist legions from reinforcing the Emperor on Terra.
Whatever peripheral or personal goals they may have don't have anything to do with what I'm saying.
Guilliman for me, i read that the pre-heresy ultramarines do theoreticals for each battle so that they're never caught unprepared, having a battle plan for whichever way a battle goes. Except ironically in the case of the word bearers attacking them, they never did any theoreticals against fighting fellow space marines since it was considered borderline heresy...
I say Curze but the tactic I think of extends to Sanguinius and Manus too.
Terror Tactics. Nothing works better. Sure you can bring down a fortress, but that takes work. If you can scare the gak out of the occupants and they surrender, not only is it better in terms of compliance, but better in terms of saving ammo.
Night Lords did it best, but the other two did well too. Sanguinius and his lot would deep strike and land in the enemies midst. Suddenly no one knows whats going on and it creates fear of the unknown.
Manus would lead his warriors head on. Don't stop, don't falter, never retreat. You have an army of gentically enhanced superwarriors further enhanced with mechanical upgrades and a demigod who can bend metal with his hands and a hammer that can flatten mountains (says legend), who will seek to detroy you without mercy no matter the cost. For any rational foe it would be terrorfying
Deadshot wrote: I say Curze but the tactic I think of extends to Sanguinius and Manus too.
Terror Tactics. Nothing works better. Sure you can bring down a fortress, but that takes work. If you can scare the gak out of the occupants and they surrender, not only is it better in terms of compliance, but better in terms of saving ammo.
In order for the terror tactics to be effecting you need an opponent who is susceptible to fear. Not counting your run of the mill human PDF, have there actually been any situations were NL brought defeat to other races and faction by the use of fear? Do the Imperial Fists lose their resolve and stand down from their fortresses when they hear the NL are in the neighbourhood? Will terror ever be enough to bring pause to the animalistic drive of Orks and the insatiable hunger of Tyranids? I think not.
Curze’s tactics work well against the right opponent, but are less effect when employed on a universal scale. To fight on such a scale you need adaptability and not limit yourself to a single strategy. That’s why I consider Guiliman and Lion to be best (overall), as they are not so limited in their approach to warfare.
1 Tyranids did not exist (as far as the fluff was concerned) prior to 775.M 41. Well after the Heresy.
2 The IF did not abandon castle because they had no fear. Upon design and usage in the crusade the only fearless enemy were the orks (and then it only lasted untill you gruesomely slaughtered their ladz, which the NL did very effectively).
3 When they did use Terror Tactics, against fearful enemies such as humans, it was one of the most effective tactics in the Crusade. What's more is that these systems didn't just rebel after they had left, they were too scared to.
4 When called into battle, the NL were everything their image promised. Destruction. Merciless, brutal, unrelenting, mechanical warfare. The Night Lords didn't use what they needed. The used everything. A tower needs a Missile Launcher to blow up? Send 10 Predators and obliterate it? Assault Squad to capture the objective? Send in a company. Warboss needs a slap on the wrist? Curze rips hkm apart. All of this produced news which travelled and fueled their image. When people thought of the.Night Lords, they thought of their death. Systems surrendered without a shot. So better for life and economy.
Going by the only measuring stick that really matters in war, the greatest tacticians among the Primarchs after Horus are Johnson and Russ, in that order.
Bran Dawri wrote: Going by the only measuring stick that really matters in war, the greatest tacticians among the Primarchs after Horus are Johnson and Russ, in that order.
Fair digs. Horus is obviously the best (at everything really) and Johnson was a supreme tactnician. Russ must be a superb commander. To defeat an entire Legion of space marines (and a lot of psykers to boot) as well as possibly defeating 2 other Legions is phenomenal.
1 Tyranids did not exist (as far as the fluff was concerned) prior to 775.M 41. Well after the Heresy.
2 The IF did not abandon castle because they had no fear. Upon design and usage in the crusade the only fearless enemy were the orks (and then it only lasted untill you gruesomely slaughtered their ladz, which the NL did very effectively).
3 When they did use Terror Tactics, against fearful enemies such as humans, it was one of the most effective tactics in the Crusade. What's more is that these systems didn't just rebel after they had left, they were too scared to.
4 When called into battle, the NL were everything their image promised. Destruction. Merciless, brutal, unrelenting, mechanical warfare. The Night Lords didn't use what they needed. The used everything. A tower needs a Missile Launcher to blow up? Send 10 Predators and obliterate it? Assault Squad to capture the objective? Send in a company. Warboss needs a slap on the wrist? Curze rips hkm apart. All of this produced news which travelled and fueled their image. When people thought of the.Night Lords, they thought of their death. Systems surrendered without a shot. So better for life and economy.
2 ”The IF did not abandon castle because they had no fear” you said it yourself friend. The very
Core rule of which Curze and his legion has build their strategies on, becomes obsolete when they are opposed by their brethren.
3 Were exactly did you get this ‘never revolted’ idea from? What I have read about NL pre-heresy days paint the picture of a legion, who made any rebelling colonise severely regret choosing the way of ‘dissident.’ But these colonise still had the guts to rebel when the NL weren’t around, Curze said so himself: “when he thought he would be punished, he dared not shoot, but when he thought he was free from consequence, he acted.” And regarding Nostramo. Shang: “without fear of reprisal humanity reverts to its basic instincts.” You must at least agree with me on the fact, that Curze’s terror tactics did not have any positive lasting effect on the worlds he conquered yes?
4 I don’t quit understand the argument your trying to put forth here. How does the “Destructive. Merciless. Brutal. Unrelenting. Mechanical warfare” side of NL distinguish them from that of any other legion? Do the other legions not use their ‘everything’ as well?
I’m not trying to label the NL and Curze as useless punks who don’t know how to plan for their battles. I’m merely instigating, that Curze’s strategies works well when used under a specific criteria, but fails short when employed on a broader scale.
My point was that the NL above all, if not then.most, others used excessive, mainly unnessecary for. For example if only 1 squad was needed, they send 5 or a company, or more. This built up a reputation, so that others found out then they surrender. It was effective and very powerful. It falls down at the example of enemy marines because they were not designed to deal with marines. The tactics were designed to fight humans. Sure they were a little short sighted but in terms of tactics, there are none better than TT in my opinion. Sieges take time, plans take intelligence, assaults require warriors. All terror requires is rumour and chinese whispers. It is by far the most cost effective, in terms of supplies and lives. That's why it is best. Because you just have to exist for it to work.
But what happens when you send a company to do a squads job and then your hit from an unexpected quarter, send in the reserves oh wait they're all off over there wasting time. or once again you send the company too destroy tower block A when 10 squads could be destroying ten different tower blocks.
Any one that relies on 1 tactic just isn't worth considering, except maybe the alpha legion, but even then sneaking around isnt always best some times it takes a bit of shock and awe
Cruze and his legion did indeed perform well when used under the right circumstances, I will defiantly agree with you on that. But when it comes to who we consider the best tactician, we have to let the discussion be, as we have our own opinions (And rightly so!) It was fun discussing with you
I think this was a little to genaralised. Siege/Assault wise I go Perturabo and his Iron Warriors all the way of course. His trap on Sebastus IV made him look pretty smart to me at least . But to be honest Horus seemed to be the only Primarch that got anything done.
Deadshot wrote: I really don't Hrmorus should vmcount. He was literally the best of dverumything. I think this was even stated somewhere? Need to find where...
Well no, he certainly wasn't.
Vulkan and Ferrus Manus are definitely physically stronger, Magnus, Lorgar, Sanguinius, and a few others are more powerful psykers, Fulgrim and Sanguinius had way more bishi hawtness, etc.
Horus was the best tactician because he had a mind for campaigns. He could lose a battle that seemed key on purpose, only to set up the enemy to feel proud and inflated, then destroy their entire command structure in one decisive raid. He took half the space marines in the galaxy and beat back the other technologically advanced and numerically superior until he could cripple their leader, the most powerful man ever to live. Even in death he could have won that battle if the forces hadn't pulled back.
Got to give it to Horus. Though, I can see where some of the other Primarchs gain their strengths from. Guilliman was an extremely effective organizer and his legions reflected that. Then Alpharius was a mastermind; the dropsite massacre at the beginning of the Heresy was based on plans originally designed by him. My second choice would have to be the Lion, who joined the Crusade late and still managed to enjoy much success. Kinda disappointed that Sanguinius didn't get higher on the polls. Horus thought that Sanguinius was a good choice for a Warmaster, but I guess there hasn't been much to prove his success. And then, Rogal Dorn was pretty amazing himself, with the defense of Terra being a great achievement.
Horus I feel is just the best tactician because he taught a decentralized command structure which gave his soldiers more flexibility in the field. He also masterminded many strategies himself, most famously, the 'Speartip' which would sever the head of the enemy command structure, leaving the army to wither on the vine. He also knew how to take advantage of others, such as the Mechanicum and his fellow Primarchs. While not being so tactical as strategic, this trait gave his armies the support to go conquer the Imperium, which culminated in the siege of Terra and his death by the Emperor.
Jacobshepard wrote: Got to give it to Horus. Though, I can see where some of the other Primarchs gain their strengths from. Guilliman was an extremely effective organizer and his legions reflected that. Then Alpharius was a mastermind; the dropsite massacre at the beginning of the Heresy was based on plans originally designed by him. My second choice would have to be the Lion, who joined the Crusade late and still managed to enjoy much success. Kinda disappointed that Sanguinius didn't get higher on the polls. Horus thought that Sanguinius was a good choice for a Warmaster, but I guess there hasn't been much to prove his success. And then, Rogal Dorn was pretty amazing himself, with the defense of Terra being a great achievement.
Horus I feel is just the best tactician because he taught a decentralized command structure which gave his soldiers more flexibility in the field. He also masterminded many strategies himself, most famously, the 'Speartip' which would sever the head of the enemy command structure, leaving the army to wither on the vine. He also knew how to take advantage of others, such as the Mechanicum and his fellow Primarchs. While not being so tactical as strategic, this trait gave his armies the support to go conquer the Imperium, which culminated in the siege of Terra and his death by the Emperor.
There really isn't anything to suggest that Sanguinius was a particularly gifted tactician. His legion competed with the World Eaters for the title of best shock/assault troops, their tactic was "hit 'em fast, hit 'em hard".
I had cast in my vote for Jaghatai Khan because of this:
Facing a breach and potential collapse of the Imperial defences, Jaghatai Khan decided on a change of plan. Rather than assaulting the almost-invincible flanks of the Chaotic army, Khan redirected his highly mobile White Scars Space Marines and the surviving Loyalist Tank Divisions of the Imperial Army to Lion's Gate Spaceport. At dawn Jaghatai's lightning raid caught the Traitor garrison at the spaceport completely by surprise, and reclaimed the spaceport for the Imperium. The Khan ordered his troops to reactivate the spaceport's defence lasers to prevent the Traitor fleet from bringing down any more troops and equipment and form a defensive perimeter to hold their newly reconquered territory. Khan's troops repelled several frenzied counter-attacks from the Traitors, and began firing on Horus' unprotected drop ships. The Khan's plan worked perfectly: the flow of the Traitors' men and machines to the Imperial Palace had been cut in half at a single stroke. Inspired by this success, the Loyalists also tried to seize back the Eternity Wall Spaceport, but were driven back by the Chaos forces without difficulty, as they had reinforced their garrison following the loss of the Lion's Gate.
Viersche wrote: Guilliman for me, i read that the pre-heresy ultramarines do theoreticals for each battle so that they're never caught unprepared, having a battle plan for whichever way a battle goes. Except ironically in the case of the word bearers attacking them, they never did any theoreticals against fighting fellow space marines since it was considered borderline heresy...
Some more really silly plot contrivances, lol.
Sometimes I wish the HH books just told action stories rather than war stories. Every time one of those guys tries too hard to explain something, it ends up being silly.
Best Tactician was Magnus the back broken, he's move on Prospero -" I will not fight - I will fight " (then losing) and his backup tactic - I will sell my arse to the highest bidder was the best move EVER...
And btw only real shock troops were RG - rest of them had that element of suprise YES but not so good as RG guerilla tactic...so now my vote goes to Corax (remember Istvaan,he was the only one who did any damage to the traitors)
LORD_PANTERA wrote: I had cast in my vote for Jaghatai Khan because of this:
Facing a breach and potential collapse of the Imperial defences, Jaghatai Khan decided on a change of plan. Rather than assaulting the almost-invincible flanks of the Chaotic army, Khan redirected his highly mobile White Scars Space Marines and the surviving Loyalist Tank Divisions of the Imperial Army to Lion's Gate Spaceport. At dawn Jaghatai's lightning raid caught the Traitor garrison at the spaceport completely by surprise, and reclaimed the spaceport for the Imperium. The Khan ordered his troops to reactivate the spaceport's defence lasers to prevent the Traitor fleet from bringing down any more troops and equipment and form a defensive perimeter to hold their newly reconquered territory. Khan's troops repelled several frenzied counter-attacks from the Traitors, and began firing on Horus' unprotected drop ships. The Khan's plan worked perfectly: the flow of the Traitors' men and machines to the Imperial Palace had been cut in half at a single stroke. Inspired by this success, the Loyalists also tried to seize back the Eternity Wall Spaceport, but were driven back by the Chaos forces without difficulty, as they had reinforced their garrison following the loss of the Lion's Gate.
Source: warhammer 40k wiki
Finally, someone who agrees! White scars get no love...
Best Tactician was Magnus the back broken, he's move on Prospero -" I will not fight - I will fight " (then losing) and his backup tactic - I will sell my arse to the highest bidder was the best move EVER...
And btw only real shock troops were RG - rest of them had that element of suprise YES but not so good as RG guerilla tactic...so now my vote goes to Corax (remember Istvaan,he was the only one who did any damage to the traitors)
Lol? 100 murloc terminators pushed back 3 legions. They also had the upper hand.
Best Tactician was Magnus the back broken, he's move on Prospero -" I will not fight - I will fight " (then losing) and his backup tactic - I will sell my arse to the highest bidder was the best move EVER...
And btw only real shock troops were RG - rest of them had that element of suprise YES but not so good as RG guerilla tactic...so now my vote goes to Corax (remember Istvaan,he was the only one who did any damage to the traitors)
Lol? 100 murloc terminators pushed back 3 legions. They also had the upper hand.
Best Tactician was Magnus the back broken, he's move on Prospero -" I will not fight - I will fight " (then losing) and his backup tactic - I will sell my arse to the highest bidder was the best move EVER...
And btw only real shock troops were RG - rest of them had that element of suprise YES but not so good as RG guerilla tactic...so now my vote goes to Corax (remember Istvaan,he was the only one who did any damage to the traitors)
Lol? 100 murloc terminators pushed back 3 legions. They also had the upper hand.
Best Tactician was Magnus the back broken, he's move on Prospero -" I will not fight - I will fight " (then losing) and his backup tactic - I will sell my arse to the highest bidder was the best move EVER...
And btw only real shock troops were RG - rest of them had that element of suprise YES but not so good as RG guerilla tactic...so now my vote goes to Corax (remember Istvaan,he was the only one who did any damage to the traitors)
Lol? 100 murloc terminators pushed back 3 legions. They also had the upper hand.
Weren't they slaughtered by the Phoenix guard IIRC ?
Best Tactician was Magnus the back broken, he's move on Prospero -" I will not fight - I will fight " (then losing) and his backup tactic - I will sell my arse to the highest bidder was the best move EVER...
And btw only real shock troops were RG - rest of them had that element of suprise YES but not so good as RG guerilla tactic...so now my vote goes to Corax (remember Istvaan,he was the only one who did any damage to the traitors)
Lol? 100 murloc terminators pushed back 3 legions. They also had the upper hand.
Weren't they slaughtered by the Phoenix guard IIRC ?
I think so too. It was one of those, Chaos Marines feth everyone up and than Loyal terminators get in the way and feth the Chaos Marines up, than Chaos Elites (Phoenix Guard) step in and flip it around again
Best Tactician was Magnus the back broken, he's move on Prospero -" I will not fight - I will fight " (then losing) and his backup tactic - I will sell my arse to the highest bidder was the best move EVER...
And btw only real shock troops were RG - rest of them had that element of suprise YES but not so good as RG guerilla tactic...so now my vote goes to Corax (remember Istvaan,he was the only one who did any damage to the traitors)
Lol? 100 murloc terminators pushed back 3 legions. They also had the upper hand.
Weren't they slaughtered by the Phoenix guard IIRC ?
I think so too. It was one of those, Chaos Marines feth everyone up and than Loyal terminators get in the way and feth the Chaos Marines up, than Chaos Elites (Phoenix Guard) step in and flip it around again
Pheonix Guard vs Morlocks was like steamroller vs kitten. Extremely similar to Ferrus vs Fulgrim
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlaxicanX wrote: Prince Yriel is the greatest Primarch tactician.
You haven't read the book in a long time, the only time Fulgrims phoenix guard accomplish anything is when Fulgrim leaves the iron hand ship after beating Manus in the face, as he walks out Fulgrim gives the sign to his guard, all standing beside the murlocs they all instantaneously lop off they're heads. They weren't expecting betrayal... it was like a wtf moment.. On Istvan 5 the Murlocs get beat back eventually yes, being outnumbered by 3 legions doesn't help. The iron hands do not get raped as you people seem to reckon.
Alpharius Omegon hands down. Why is that you ask? Well...
Schooled an entire strike force of Luna Wolves ships with a rag tag band of pirates. Managed to get onto Horus' ship and into his face before the two had a lol. Before he had a Legion and Power Armor.
Decided to troll Rowboat by delaying an invasion of a non compliant world; allowing the planet time to heavily reinforce. Then through use of Imperial citizens and SUPERIOR TACTICS proceeded to take the planet with the loss of less than thirty Marines. Girlyman got so butthurt by this schooling he threw a little tantrum. The twins had a lol and buggered off.
Rowboat tried to fight Alpharius once. He even killed some guy in blue green armor and got all excited, tweeting to his followers "ERMAGARD TOTALLY KILLED ALPHARIUS #TACTICS!!!!". Then Alpha Legion proceeded to kick the living crap out of the Smurfs and boot em off planet. Back at headquarters, Alpharius said to Omegon "And you said that decoy stuff doesnt work. Suck it bro." And they lold off into the sunset.
Also have the prestige of being the last remaining Primarchs not turned into a raging slimy hate idiot daemon. Or dead in a jar. Or floating around the Warp. Or having had half your legion turn on you, and then your best buddy (who never got a geneseed and is merely an above average human) kick your demigod ass into the next millenium so bad they gotta freeze you til somebody figures out how to staple the mess back together. Not to mention being blessed with a name worthy of a trailer park denzien.
That is.....if the Alpha Legion actually existed. Which they dont.
Alpharius Omegon hands down. Why is that you ask? Well...
Schooled an entire strike force of Luna Wolves ships with a rag tag band of pirates. Managed to get onto Horus' ship and into his face before the two had a lol. Before he had a Legion and Power Armor.
Decided to troll Rowboat by delaying an invasion of a non compliant world; allowing the planet time to heavily reinforce. Then through use of Imperial citizens and SUPERIOR TACTICS proceeded to take the planet with the loss of less than thirty Marines. Girlyman got so butthurt by this schooling he threw a little tantrum. The twins had a lol and buggered off.
Rowboat tried to fight Alpharius once. He even killed some guy in blue green armor and got all excited, tweeting to his followers "ERMAGARD TOTALLY KILLED ALPHARIUS #TACTICS!!!!". Then Alpha Legion proceeded to kick the living crap out of the Smurfs and boot em off planet. Back at headquarters, Alpharius said to Omegon "And you said that decoy stuff doesnt work. Suck it bro." And they lold off into the sunset.
Also have the prestige of being the last remaining Primarchs not turned into a raging slimy hate idiot daemon. Or dead in a jar. Or floating around the Warp. Or having had half your legion turn on you, and then your best buddy (who never got a geneseed and is merely an above average human) kick your demigod ass into the next millenium so bad they gotta freeze you til somebody figures out how to staple the mess back together. Not to mention being blessed with a name worthy of a trailer park denzien.
That is.....if the Alpha Legion actually existed. Which they dont.
Dude this post just made my day awesome, just awesome, i bow to you sir.
Im suprised at the results! Guilliman i can see but wasn't expecting the Lion to be so high. I chose Horus, being the Warmaster and all, but I think Alpharius Omegon is a close second.
I just re-red the DAHH novels. It's stated (with a very possible bias) that the Lion is the second best strategist in the Emperor's army, only behind Horus.
TheAngrySquig wrote: Pheonix Guard vs Morlocks was like steamroller vs kitten. Extremely similar to Ferrus vs Fulgrim
That isn't how it happened.
Who was the steamroller in the Ferrus vs. Fulgrim fight btw?
Prolly Fulgrim, since he won twice without a single scratch in either fight.
If you re-read the fight, Fulgrim gets a little more than scratched. Fulgrim p. 484-485. How ever Morlocks got slaughtered, I kinda feel bad for them. I liked the Iron Hands Legion.
Kovnik Obama wrote: I just re-red the DAHH novels. It's stated (with a very possible bias) that the Lion is the second best strategist in the Emperor's army, only behind Horus.
TheAngrySquig wrote: Pheonix Guard vs Morlocks was like steamroller vs kitten. Extremely similar to Ferrus vs Fulgrim
That isn't how it happened.
Who was the steamroller in the Ferrus vs. Fulgrim fight btw?
Prolly Fulgrim, since he won twice without a single scratch in either fight.
If you re-read the fight, Fulgrim gets a little more than scratched. Fulgrim p. 484-485. How ever Morlocks got slaughtered, I kinda feel bad for them. I liked the Iron Hands Legion.
Nah, Fulgrim isn't canon.
In the canon fluff, Fulgrim doesn't even use weapons to beat Ferrus. He just kicks Ferrus Mannus' head off.
TheAngrySquig wrote: Pheonix Guard vs Morlocks was like steamroller vs kitten. Extremely similar to Ferrus vs Fulgrim
That isn't how it happened.
Who was the steamroller in the Ferrus vs. Fulgrim fight btw?
Prolly Fulgrim, since he won twice without a single scratch in either fight.
If you re-read the fight, Fulgrim gets a little more than scratched. Fulgrim p. 484-485. How ever Morlocks got slaughtered, I kinda feel bad for them. I liked the Iron Hands Legion.
Nah, Fulgrim isn't canon.
In the canon fluff, Fulgrim doesn't even use weapons to beat Ferrus. He just kicks Ferrus Mannus' head off.
I'm pretty sure that Fulgrim is canon, just like the rest of the HH. And if Ferrus can take a Thunder Hammer to the head and keep fighting, it's likely he could tke a kick, no matter how high the heels his brother was wearing at the time were.
Lion and Guiliman were regarded as best tacticians among all Primarchs. But Guiliman was always more of a diplomat so my vote goes to Lion.
But if you are going to judge by individual deeds than any of them could be the best as all of them did some crazy gamble and incredible tactical moves during Great Crusade.
Well IIRC Luna Wolves had the most success above the other legions, followed by Ultramarines. So there is my vote to Horus. Lion and Alpharius were also Superb stategists. Corax had his stealth, Kurze had Terror. Magnus planned a lot, Fulgrim did so too and executed said plan perfectly (and fabulously). Perturabo sorta got bogged down a lot, Mortariom just kept pushing through, so did Manus. Dorn led from the forny, Sanguinius dropped in using DOA tactics. Khan used mounted, Gengis Khan-esque attacks. Angron sprt of just pointed and started running that way. Alpha Legion used decoys and Black Ops. Vulkan sort of led from the front in a sledgehammer attack.
Really all I can say is that I can't remember Lorgar actually having a brilliant plan. Just "land on planet, shoot them, build statue. "
Fulgrim actually was a weak tactician, he formed excellent strategies, but his weakness was that he expected his Marines to be as perfect and bishie as he is, which bit his legion in the ass a few times. Laer being a notable occasion.
Void__Dragon wrote: Fulgrim actually was a weak tactician, he formed excellent strategies, but his weakness was that he expected his Marines to be as perfect and bishie as he is, which bit his legion in the ass a few times. Laer being a notable occasion.
Laer was Fulgrim's crowning achievement. The Administratum was preparing for a grueling campaign, one that would last years and cost billions and lives, when Fulgrim won in a week with minimal causalities.
Wait, did five people seriously vote for Angron as the best tactician? And why would nine people vote for Khan?
As one of the Marines who killed Osama Bin Ladin, as well as the US's top SWAT team specialist and highest rank guerilla warrior, I can state with one hundred percent certainty that motorcycles that go VROOOM VROOOOOOOOOM are the most dangerous weapons in existence. Khan was the only Primarch wise enough to utilize this, easily establishing him as the greatest tactician.
LoneLictor wrote: Laer was Fulgrim's crowning achievement. The Administratum was preparing for a grueling campaign, one that would last years and cost billions and lives, when Fulgrim won in a week with minimal causalities.
That Fulgrim is a better strategist or tactician than the Administratum doesn't mean much when compared to Primarchs.
While a victory, it nevertheless demonstrated Fulgrim's flaws as a commander.
LoneLictor wrote: Laer was Fulgrim's crowning achievement. The Administratum was preparing for a grueling campaign, one that would last years and cost billions and lives, when Fulgrim won in a week with minimal causalities.
That Fulgrim is a better strategist or tactician than the Administratum doesn't mean much when compared to Primarchs.
While a victory, it nevertheless demonstrated Fulgrim's flaws as a commander.
He expected his men to act perfectly... and they did because he'd trained them to.
A good portion of his Marines were unable to make it into battle and IIRC some died because they and reality could not live up to his ideal for perfection.
Void__Dragon wrote: A good portion of his Marines were unable to make it into battle and IIRC some died because they and reality could not live up to his ideal for perfection.
It was established as a victory with minimal capabilities.
Of course some died, that's inevitable. Fulgrim was wiping out an entire goddamn Empire in a week, you can't do that without casualities.
A good portion of Marines were unable to so much as make it to battle because of his overtly-convoluted battle plans (The narrative and even his own Marines realise this).
And I'll be real here: What was Fulgrim's plan, at the end of the day? Flying him and his elites to the front, so he can use his Primarch powah to romp through the Laer.
To be fair, that seems to be the norm for Primarchs. Their strategies are never really as intricate in reality as the implied ability makes you believe (Spearhead, spearhead!).
The weakness of having authors with zero military experience writing Military Sci-Fi.
Being led halfway across the galaxy doesn't really speak of tactical genius to me.
Can you really argue who the best tactician is when the majority of battles are described as "X attacks Y, followed by basic manoeuvres and some heroics".
Got to be Gullliman, it says so right there in the fluff!
Horus and Sanguinus et al excelled at politics, dorn and perturabo were good at siegecraft or digging in or what have you, plenty of them were good at direct assaults or stealth or ripping peoples faces off, but Gulliman could do the whole package, politics, assaults, defence, and even the boring but utterly essentially gak like man management and logistics, and all of the different facets of war.
I really liked his portrayal in Know no Fear as well, the way he didn't fly off the deep end and tried to be diplomatic even after the initial devestation of the assault on Calth, half of the primarchs would have just went ape gak at that point (who the hell said Russ?!) but he made absolutely certain what was going down before he told his oppo to take that looped recording of his pleading to Lorgar down.
And then somehow organised that cluster feth back into a win, before toddling off to meet Sanguinius after he got battered on Sigma Prime.
Less charismatic than Sanguinis, less martially skilled than Angron, less sneaky than Corax, but greater than all of them when it comes to doing the whole shebang, and lets have it right, when you are in charge of 100,000 astartes and a load of planets, you need to be good at the whole shebang, from the numerous actions of a war right down to diplomacy, logistics, planning and procedure, nobody comes close when it comes down to the broad skillset required for a fictional ruler/general/soldier/quartermaster/politician.
Can you really argue who the best tactician is when the majority of battles are described as "X attacks Y, followed by basic manoeuvres and some heroics".
So tacticool guys.
Tactics in real life aren't that intricate. Too complex and the plan falls apart as it requires too many factors to be in your favour.
LoneLictor wrote: Wait, did five people seriously vote for Angron as the best tactician?
Yep.
I voted for him because he's obviously the best tactician. Who else had the brilliant idea to dual-wield chainaxes?
I think the whole problem with this thread is that characters like the Lion are said to be the best tactician, but we then see guys like Khan actually using better tactics.
Kovnik Obama wrote: I just re-red the DAHH novels. It's stated (with a very possible bias) that the Lion is the second best strategist in the Emperor's army, only behind Horus.
Who said that?
The narrator. He mentionned that to a lot of 1st Legions, Lion was the best, but that clearly pointing at some bias inside from each Legion toward their Primarch.
But the claim that Lion is the second best after Horus was made by the narrator.
It's in the beginning of Fallen Angels. And it does state 'strategist', in light of this thread I took extra care to notice. The narrator was describing how the Lion could enter a battlezone and immediatly figure out how to obtain compliance, which alliance to strike or to destroy, etc.
And I rescind what I said earlier in another thread, they did make the Lion to come off as a dick in the second novel. And the author didn't even do a very good job at that.
Harriticus wrote: Isn't it basically said in the canon that it's Guilliman? I mean I find the guy bland and annoying, but he seems to be the most capable tactically.
And lol@the 5 votes for Angron.
Horus is better at military tactics than Guilliman. Guilliman (as has been pointed out here a lot) is great on the logistic/civil side of things and is still an exceptional commander.
Horus Heresy- Horus is the best at politics / strategy. Lion is the best tactician. Roboute is good at organizing. It is also stated that Roboute understands war better then anyone. keyword > Understands < . No other primarch seems to get it. See to Fulgrim please. Fulgrim ' I seek perfection in all things, including warfare" - Guilliman " War isn't perfect dude" Fulgrim " OH, WELL DAM! " ... Not even Rogal Dorn understands war it seems. He sends 20, 000 astartes to fight titans..... Hmmmmm jeez Dorn i wonder what that will accomplish? Hell Dorn cant even make a warp jump, and Sanguinius is dead because he cant even work a teleport homer for Christ sakes...
At the end of the day the night lords and world eaters would be the best at bringing worlds into compliance.
At the end of the day the Raven guard and White Scars HAVE the best ideas and ways to destroy a foe, or win a war.
But guys at the end of the day Mathew Ward > Logic.
Frecklesonfire wrote: Horus Heresy- Horus is the best at politics / strategy. Lion is the best tactician. Roboute is good at organizing. It is also stated that Roboute understands war better then anyone. keyword > Understands < . No other primarch seems to get it. See to Fulgrim please. Fulgrim ' I seek perfection in all things, including warfare" - Guilliman " War isn't perfect dude" Fulgrim " OH, WELL DAM! " ... Not even Rogal Dorn understands war it seems. He sends 20, 000 astartes to fight titans..... Hmmmmm jeez Dorn i wonder what that will accomplish? Hell Dorn cant even make a warp jump, and Sanguinius is dead because he cant even work a teleport homer for Christ sakes...
At the end of the day the night lords and world eaters would be the best at bringing worlds into compliance.
At the end of the day the Raven guard and White Scars HAVE the best ideas and ways to destroy a foe, or win a war.
But guys at the end of the day Mathew Ward > Logic.
I would say Alpharius/Omegon not just because they are awsome. But if I cast my memory back I distinctly remember them murking some ultrasmurf butt on Eskrador...
Perturbo. Who else managed to soundly beat his arch-rival, nearly annihilate his followers, snub Daddy-dearest for his spiteful neglect and make off like a bandit all the while saving his sons from a life of eternal, and fruitless servitude? Not to mention one of the few Legions who (pardon the pun) had the balls of steel to stay behind after the HH to harass the heck out of the Imperium?
Plus he made the Lion, another good candidate in this thread, look like a total tool, manipulating him with the casual ease only a mustache-twirling supertroll like Perturabo can muster.
BaconUprising wrote: I would say Alpharius/Omegon not just because they are awsome. But if I cast my memory back I distinctly remember them murking some ultrasmurf butt on Eskrador...
Though it must be said that, while fanboyism is probably the main reason, those truly knowledgable of him could put forth a decent argument. He was not wholly the assmad barbarian he appeared.
I want to know the reasoning behind the sole Lorgar supporter myself.
BaconUprising wrote: I would say Alpharius/Omegon not just because they are awsome. But if I cast my memory back I distinctly remember them murking some ultrasmurf butt on Eskrador...
And implying they themselves got killed
Why did 55 people find Russ the best tactician?
Because he was one of the top 3 according to WD (Horus,Lion,Russ),and why the hell Magnus has any votes...he attacked undefended fort and lost
Because he was one of the top 3 according to WD (Horus,Lion,Russ),and why the hell Magnus has any votes...he attacked undefended fort and lost
This. I don't believe it's just WD, either. Old codices mention this as well. Plus, recent depictions of the SW and Russ are very much in oppositiion to how they used to be portrayed, and I for one don't care for the Wolves' new direction.
All of the strong points mentioned for Girlyman point to him being a great strategist, not a great tactician. The two are definitely markedly different.
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
*slow clap* you nailed it...completely off topic, and pathetic, hateful-not funny comment....
on topic- IMHO twins are the best - no one even knows their tactis in 40k...except one is dead....
I've heard the lion mentioned a lot but tactics is about adapting to the situation as well as just having an extensive playbook (papa smurf) so why do these polls appear every month?
Just another pissing contest beetwen Guiliman,Lion and Horus...Real question is why Perturabo isn't ranked high ? Guiliman stole everything from him IIRC...
Guilliman didn't steal everything from Perturabo, but he did respect his thoroughness, and for the siege assault/defense portion of the Codex, he used Perturabo's stratagems (vs. that of Dorn, who by all indications was the biggest chump of them all).
DarthMarko wrote: Okay, he didn't stole it - he used it (wink,wink - nod,nod)..but still I' rank him over the Guiliman any day of the week...
I think Perturabo and the Iron Warriors are the best tacticians
After reading "Angel Exterminatus" my opinion on him grow sky high - but there is still the "the Crimson fist" novel, which showed that he sucks at space battles
Perturabo never really got a chance to show what he can do in a battle of maneuvering or open formation (something they always wanted to do but were never given opportunities), and his deepest desire was to be much like Guilliman, in that he would be an administrator more than a general, and design beautiful cities for his populace.
As Fulgrim said it, Perturabo's cities would have all the splendor of Macgragge without any of the starch.
Speaking of Angel Exterminatus, it is interesting to note that now three of the traitor primarchs are shown to be more scholars than warriors (Lorgar chaffed against his duty as a general, Magnus subverted his command for his own purposes, whereas Perturabo was the dutiful son that put away personal desires for duty).
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
*slow clap* you nailed it...completely off topic, and pathetic, hateful-not funny comment....
on topic- IMHO twins are the best - no one even knows their tactis in 40k...except one is dead....
killed by a smurf
Do note that the only one that actually confirmed that kill is an agent of the Alpha Legion itself. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled and all that.
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
*slow clap* you nailed it...completely off topic, and pathetic, hateful-not funny comment....
on topic- IMHO twins are the best - no one even knows their tactis in 40k...except one is dead....
killed by a smurf
However, it has been noted in the lexicanum that even then, they still don't believe that Alpharius or his twin are dead. Considering that towards the end of things, Alpharius was recruiting men that looked like him and the rest of the legion, and that each acted like alpharius, I find it incredibly likely that Alpharius trained a marine to fight like him in order to fake a death. The fact that the Alpha Legion let everyone speak in a planning session also turns things around, considering that Alpharius trained an entire legion to think as he does, making a single loss into nothing. Just like the Dark Eldar, unless you can produce a body and confirm the identity 100%, then they are not dead.
DarthMarko wrote: Just another pissing contest beetwen Guiliman,Lion and Horus...Real question is why Perturabo isn't ranked high ? Guiliman stole everything from him IIRC...
Perturabo is ever the overlooked brother, when he is easily one of the most competent Primarchs. He, almost alone among them, knew that risking his own life in battles against his brothers needlessly was foolish, and nearly killed Dorn without having to physically present himself.
"However, it has been noted in the lexicanum that even then, they still don't believe that Alpharius or his twin are dead. Considering that towards the end of things, Alpharius was recruiting men that looked like him and the rest of the legion, and that each acted like alpharius, I find it incredibly likely that Alpharius trained a marine to fight like him in order to fake a death. The fact that the Alpha Legion let everyone speak in a planning session also turns things around, considering that Alpharius trained an entire legion to think as he does, making a single loss into nothing. Just like the Dark Eldar, unless you can produce a body and confirm the identity 100%, then they are not dead."
I think Omegon went to the loyalist side. In all of the stories he seems very unsure of the path the Alpha legion is on.
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
*slow clap* you nailed it...completely off topic, and pathetic, hateful-not funny comment....
Haters gonna hate. I, for one , have treouble believing it's only been 55 people. Perhaps most of the SW fans have been too tactically savvy to let others know their real strength?
Because many people on this site like to believe Russ is always the winner when primarchs are compared on threads like this. And the reason is always because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch would win in a fight between himself and x? ...Russ because he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch is the greatest leader? ...Leman Russ, he was raised by wolves.
Which Primarch makes the best omelets? ...Russ, wolves.
*slow clap* you nailed it...completely off topic, and pathetic, hateful-not funny comment....
Haters gonna hate. I, for one , have treouble believing it's only been 55 people. Perhaps most of the SW fans have been too tactically savvy to let others know their real strength?
Sanguinius, because the Emperor was a greater tactician than any of the primarchs and by Horus' own words Sanguinius was the most like the big E
"Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his.."
I think events show that the Emperor was not so good with the short-term (tactics), because he focused completely on the long-term (strategy). I mean, he conquered Terra by either strolling in glowing like Jesus and having everyone instantly fall to their knees, or unleashing his Thunder Warrior gorillas that just blasted everything to bits with their superior guns, armor and physically. It does not take a tactical genius when any one of your warriors could account for a hundred enemies.
Anyway, all the Primarchs were capable, but mostly their tactics of war were influenced by how they fought on their home planets. That's why Night Lords specialized in terror tactics, and Raven Guard on subterfuge and stealth (ignoring their newly introduced ninja powers from Angel Exterminatus). This somewhat invalidates guys like Russ or Khan from consideration, because their tactics stem from the small raiding party engagements of their homeworld.
So we have to look at the guys who commanded more traditional armies, which points to guys like Guilliman, the Lion, or perhaps Perturabo (Horus should probably be here too, but I just realized I know nothing about his home planet except its name... We're always just told he was the first to be found and the favored son of the Emperor).
Since the Lion is portrayed as basically a computer with legs, Perturabo is never given an opportunity to show his talents in non-siege engagements, and Guilliman's Legion is described as having the most successes with the fewest casualties, this has to go to the boy in blue. Plus there's that whole book of tactical doctrine that's endured for ten millennia. Then again, considering that in Guilliman's own simulations, the Sons of Horus rocked the Ultramarines' socks off, perhaps the title belongs to Horus after all.
As for Horus lamenting that Sanguinius wasn't chosen to be Warmaster, he wasn't so much commenting on capability (since he certainly saw himself as extremely capable), but rather the strength of character and raw charisma of Sanguinius. Many of Horus' brothers resented his appointment, no one would have likely questioned Sanguinius.
He beat up Fulgrim and An'ggrath, was beaten in a telepathic duel with Magnus (But Magnus noted his psychic growth), and generally acted like an internet tough guy.
He beat up Fulgrim and An'ggrath, was beaten in a telepathic duel with Magnus (But Magnus noted his psychic growth), and generally acted like an internet tough guy.
Tactically, he did nothing.
1. Lorgar wasn't beaten by Magnus in any duel
2. He sucker attacked deamon Fulgrim ,real Fulgrim would rape his arse any day of the week
3. Be precise,and put your adoration to Magnus aside
I dont understand how you can say psychically commanding Horus, beating another Primarch into submission and defeating one of the greatest daemons ever is "nothing"
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh also he's pretty much the sole reason for chaos entering the imperium and is technically the orchestrator of the Horus heresy...
He beat up Fulgrim and An'ggrath, was beaten in a telepathic duel with Magnus (But Magnus noted his psychic growth), and generally acted like an internet tough guy.
Tactically, he did nothing.
1. Lorgar wasn't beaten by Magnus in any duel
2. He sucker attacked deamon Fulgrim ,real Fulgrim would rape his arse any day of the week
3. Be precise,and put your adoration to Magnus aside
Well, he was doing a lot of psychic shouting, but when Magnus had enough of it, he put a stop to it in short order. You're right, any genuine psychic contest between the two would not be a duel, but a massacre.
Agreed on Fulgrim. While the daemon was in charge, Lorgar had an advantage. When Fulgrim took back control, I doubt Lorgar would have such success, even with a sneak attack.
What I was just about to post, he just started to discover pp and already senses Fulgrim as a deamon (which even Magnus didn't) - who knows how much he will grow in time...
And what fascinated me, is how much he trashed Magnus with his rhetoric it amost seemed that he is one and only chaos chosen
Spoiler:
Emperor, commanding the second-largest Legion in the Imperium. You are a broken soul, leading a shattered Legion. Perhaps I was never the one that needed protection, nor did my arrogance lead to my downfall. You cannot claim the same, Magnus. We both knew the truth, but only one of us faced it.’
And such a truth. Bitter amusement lapped at Lorgar’s senses. The galaxy is a foul place. We are only making it fouler. Have you considered that it might be better to die in ignorance than to live with the truth?
Lorgar repelled his brother’s creeping emotions with a burst of irritation. The spectre shimmered again, almost dissolving into the air.
+ Have you considered it, Magnus? If so, why do you yet live? Why did you not surrender to the howling death that came for you, when Russ broke your spine over his knee? +
Magnus’s ghost-image laughed, but it was a forced sound, barely reaching Lorgar’s mind. Is this what we have come to? Is this the bitterness you have hidden from all of us for half a century? What did you see at the end of your Pilgrimage, my brother? What did you see when you stared into the abyss?
+ You know what I saw. I saw the warp, and what swims within its tides. + He hesitated a moment, feeling his fingers curl, forming fists in his rising rage. + You are a coward, to know of the Primordial Truth yet fail to embrace it. Chaos Incarnate is only grotesque because we see it with mortal eyes. When we ascend, we will be the chosen children of the gods.
)
. I'd say that top tacticians were (not necessary in that order) - Alpharius-Omegon, Corax, Russ and Lion.
