Hey guys just wanted to throw some detailed info relative to sixth edition Eldar.
A tactic i have been employing with some fantastic results has been:
Eldrad Ulthran (Best and only HQ worth taking) other than another farseer maxed out minus runes of warding.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Eldrad is the ultimate buffing machine, and if fortuned, can make mince meat with his rerolling 3+ invul-save, of any CC units that don't Insta kill him. May take a few turns but it will do. If you fortune and guide the Dark-reapers, they will be damn survivable against any kind of fire. You can also guide the wraithlord making him viable anti-mech; however keep him near eldrad for wraithsight.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
5 Dark Reapers. (4 regular reapers, 1Exarch, tempest, crack AND fast)
-Dark reapers are completely vicious. If guided, with BS-4, you need 3's rerolling, generaly 2's or 3's to wound the vanilla marine. Here are the statistics.
=-=-=-=-=--=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
4 reapers,1 exarch.(GUIDED)
Reaper Launcher: S5, AP3, Heavy (2) <===(nice)

HITS
4 reapers: 8 dice, need 3's re-rolling. (5 hits, 15%)
(6 hits, 40%)
(7 hits, 30%)
(8 hits,15%)

Each dice has a 2/3 chance of being a 3+ to hit, weapon S5 needing a 3+ to wound toughness 4. giving you roughly (3- 5) kills. Rely on Exarch.
If no cover save thats 1/3 to 1/2 a tac marine squad in one shooting phase. The exarch mops the rest. Literally. ==>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
1 Exarch: tempest launcher, using Fast shot or crack (GUIDED)

Hitting (2-5 units per shot) needing a 5 or less for direct hit (33% chance for direct hit on die)
direct hit using BS-5 need 5 inches or less. 25% chance to be below 5, max inches on drift being 12.
This gives you a 58% chance to hit all (2-5) units in the squad. rerolling adds exactly half of your previous probability to your new probability, giving you:
58%/ divided by 2/ = 29 %
so 58%
+ 29 %
----------
87% total chance to hit all (2-5) guys with your 2 or 3 blast markers.
Thats 4 minimum dead marines to a max of 15 dead marines. Thats nearly a whole squad. Generally with cover saves needing to be removed as 3+ armor is negated, I will often use crack shot to negate the 4+ or 5+ cover. which also lets you re-roll wounds, which is vicious. you need 4+ to wound, giving you a 33% chance to wound, re-rolling you have a 33% plus 17% for re-roll giving you a 50 % chance to wound. thats 5 to 9 instantly, no saves.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--==-=--==-=-=-==-==-=-=--=-=-
DO NOT SHOOT SQUADS WITH INVUL-SAVES, SHOOT MARINES.
YOU HAVE ROUGHLY A 85% CHANCE TO WIPE OUT A TAC-MARINE SQUAD IN 1 SHOOTING PHASE.
=-=-=-=-=-=-KILLER=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-

Wraithlord.(2 flamers, bright L, Missile) dont forget hammer of wrath people... S-10, I-10 strike. monstrous so no amour saves. Camp this (CC/Anti-Mech) monster 6" from your dearest Eldrad, who should be stationed with the dark reapers. The wraithlord can haddle any body in CC and can serious flamer a squad if they get close, plus eldrad can join in when the wrathlord charges. for a mean ignore armor save rampage

I infiltrate 1 six man squad of pathfinders and deploy a full 10 man squad of dire avengers in a wave serpent

Pathfinders are best in a 4+ ruin, place them there, if possible to be used as a piss off unit
They are vulnerable in CC, but when OVERWATCHING THEY CAN REND AND PINNING CHECK AN ASSAULTING UNIT!!!
Had a match where 2 penal legions assaulted my 6 man pathfinder squad, pinned the first squad and got tied up with the second, long enough for my avengers to come to the aid in a wave serpent. They are ap1 when you roll 5 or 6 to hit, and rending when 6 to wound.

You know that you can't cause pinning on over watch right?

To take out marines, this is hugely over priced as well... Much like the rest of the eldar dex.

Reapers are over priced, under effective and very vulnerable... Compared to the other heavy choices they are almost a joke

I didn't think the MC ap2 applied to hammer of wrath attacks?

Hammer of Wrath is always AP-.

And "minimum of 4 dead marines" with Tempest Launcher? No, there is no minimum. Also, 4 is somewhat higher than even the average.

The problem I have with Dark Reapers, is that while they are good at what they do, they are trying to play other armies games. No matter how good Dark Reapers are, you will not be able to out shoot armies like Guard or Tau head on. And most other armies have either the ability to quickly get to their position, or simply shoot them into a bloody hole in the ground.

I suppose you could make a decent eldar gunline behind an Aegis with Rangers for Troops and some Dark Reapers, but then the Eldar codex lacks long range anti tank outside of Heavy Support.

Marines die just fine to Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons, and anyway I just don't like units that can't either move really fast, deep strike, or outflank. If given the option of trying to outshoot an opponents aegis defense line gunline with Dark Reapers, or Trubo Boosting and DS Warp Spiders behind it, I'll take the second option any day.

Fast moving shooting has treated my Eldar very well in 6th.

You guys dont seem to see my pairing of eldrad and the reapers. Eldrad can make them reroll saves, and to hits. everyshooting phase. I play games everyweek, and in everygame i regularly wipe out a tac marine squad in 1 go. The wraithlord is a monstrous creature and uses no weapon to ignor armoursaves, the hammer of wrath ignores armor regardless. Ap- for any unit because they arent using a weapon is a base strength hit. The model type determines the AP in this case. And MASSEAN where is there a no pinning in the overwatch phase. and 4 is not in the higher range of dead space marines unless you roll like complete crap. Ive used the reapers im my last 30 matches, and he has never failed to kill less than 6.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I understand the reapers are expensive, but at 48" and S5 AP3, there are specifically designed to eliminate tac marine squads. its quite simple. ALSO, eldrad specialized in divination, if you get lucky on psychic power picks, theres a power that lets a squad ignore cover, cast this on reapers and voila, marine sauce!

I have had great luck with Dark Reapers versus our Necron player. I put them with Eldard and ontop of a Bastion.

CorpseCommander wrote:
the hammer of wrath ignores armor regardless. Ap- for any unit because they arent using a weapon is a base strength hit.

This is false.

Also, I'm aware what Eldrad does with Reapers, and it's good. It does not kill 10 marines a turn though: not on average, not even when lucky.

CorpseCommander wrote:
You guys dont seem to see my pairing of eldrad and the reapers. Eldrad can make them reroll saves, and to hits. everyshooting phase. I play games everyweek, and in everygame i regularly wipe out a tac marine squad in 1 go. The wraithlord is a monstrous creature and uses no weapon to ignor armoursaves, the hammer of wrath ignores armor regardless. Ap- for any unit because they arent using a weapon is a base strength hit. The model type determines the AP in this case. And MASSEAN where is there a no pinning in the overwatch phase. and 4 is not in the higher range of dead space marines unless you roll like complete crap. Ive used the reapers im my last 30 matches, and he has never failed to kill less than 6.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I understand the reapers are expensive, but at 48" and S5 AP3, there are specifically designed to eliminate tac marine squads. its quite simple. ALSO, eldrad specialized in divination, if you get lucky on psychic power picks, theres a power that lets a squad ignore cover, cast this on reapers and voila, marine sauce!

Someone is in lala land/bad at reading rules...

 DarknessEternal wrote:

CorpseCommander wrote:
the hammer of wrath ignores armor regardless. Ap- for any unit because they arent using a weapon is a base strength hit.

This is false.

Also, I'm aware what Eldrad does with Reapers, and it's good. It does not kill 10 marines a turn though: not on average, not even when lucky.

CorpseCommander wrote:


Hey guys just wanted to throw some detailed info relative to sixth edition Eldar.
A tactic i have been employing with some fantastic results has been:
Eldrad Ulthran (Best and only HQ worth taking) other than another farseer maxed out minus runes of warding.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-Eldrad is the ultimate buffing machine, and if fortuned, can make mince meat with his rerolling 3+ invul-save, of any CC units that don't Insta kill him. May take a few turns but it will do. If you fortune and guide the Dark-reapers, they will be damn survivable against any kind of fire. You can also guide the wraithlord making him viable anti-mech; however keep him near eldrad for wraithsight.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
5 Dark Reapers. (4 regular reapers, 1Exarch, tempest, crack AND fast)
-Dark reapers are completely vicious. If guided, with BS-4, you need 3's rerolling, generaly 2's or 3's to wound the vanilla marine. Here are the statistics.
=-=-=-=-=--=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
4 reapers,1 exarch.(GUIDED)
Reaper Launcher: S5, AP3, Heavy (2) <===(nice)

HITS
4 reapers: 8 dice, need 3's re-rolling. (5 hits, 15%)
(6 hits, 40%)
(7 hits, 30%)
(8 hits,15%)

Each dice has a 2/3 chance of being a 3+ to hit, weapon S5 needing a 3+ to wound toughness 4. giving you roughly (3- 5) kills. Rely on Exarch.
If no cover save thats 1/3 to 1/2 a tac marine squad in one shooting phase. The exarch mops the rest. Literally. ==>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
1 Exarch: tempest launcher, using Fast shot or crack (GUIDED)

Hitting (2-5 units per shot) needing a 5 or less for direct hit (33% chance for direct hit on die)
direct hit using BS-5 need 5 inches or less. 25% chance to be below 5, max inches on drift being 12.
This gives you a 58% chance to hit all (2-5) units in the squad. rerolling adds exactly half of your previous probability to your new probability, giving you:
58%/ divided by 2/ = 29 %
so 58%
+ 29 %
----------
87% total chance to hit all (2-5) guys with your 2 or 3 blast markers.
Thats 4 minimum dead marines to a max of 15 dead marines. Thats nearly a whole squad. Generally with cover saves needing to be removed as 3+ armor is negated, I will often use crack shot to negate the 4+ or 5+ cover. which also lets you re-roll wounds, which is vicious. you need 4+ to wound, giving you a 33% chance to wound, re-rolling you have a 33% plus 17% for re-roll giving you a 50 % chance to wound. thats 5 to 9 instantly, no saves.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--==-=--==-=-=-==-==-=-=--=-=-
DO NOT SHOOT SQUADS WITH INVUL-SAVES, SHOOT MARINES.
YOU HAVE ROUGHLY A 85% CHANCE TO WIPE OUT A TAC-MARINE SQUAD IN 1 SHOOTING PHASE.
=-=-=-=-=-=-KILLER=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-

Wraithlord.(2 flamers, bright L, Missile) dont forget hammer of wrath people... S-10, I-10 strike. monstrous so no amour saves. Camp this (CC/Anti-Mech) monster 6" from your dearest Eldrad, who should be stationed with the dark reapers. The wraithlord can haddle any body in CC and can serious flamer a squad if they get close, plus eldrad can join in when the wrathlord charges. for a mean ignore armor save rampage

I infiltrate 1 six man squad of pathfinders and deploy a full 10 man squad of dire avengers in a wave serpent

Pathfinders are best in a 4+ ruin, place them there, if possible to be used as a piss off unit
They are vulnerable in CC, but when OVERWATCHING THEY CAN REND AND PINNING CHECK AN ASSAULTING UNIT!!!
Had a match where 2 penal legions assaulted my 6 man pathfinder squad, pinned the first squad and got tied up with the second, long enough for my avengers to come to the aid in a wave serpent. They are ap1 when you roll 5 or 6 to hit, and rending when 6 to wound.

too many points and too many problems

1-2 battle cannon are going to kill most of your DR, even if you are rerolling your cover saves. missile launchers give you the same problem. Battle cannons and missile launchers are cheap and plentiful.

The wraithlord can flamer things when out of CC but once in combat he is really easy to tarpit. If 30 orks cross the distance they can sit in combat with him all game. Eldrad charging in is not going to change that. Even against marines, those str6 hits will eventually bring him down.

Pathfinders are good, but you cannot pin an assaulting unit and even a squad of 10 is likely to only get 2 overwatch hits and then 1 will fail to wound. Also Pathfinders die far too easily to everyones new best friend, the flamer.

Eldrad is good, he is down right OP, but there are better uses of him than sitting him with DRs and waiting to assault with a wraithlord.

Just a basic question at this point-why is the wraithlord getting hammer of wrath? Do all MC get that?

yes all MCs and all bikes jump packs and jetbikes
also cavalry if im not mistaken.

I am new to eldar so I was wondering if any of you have had success with a footdar list?
or is greater mobility more powerful?

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:

but the tempest launcher can tack on another 8-10 wounds,

Are your opponents aware they don't have to move their units around on movement trays and in close-rank formation?

Seriously, 10 wounds? That requires 20 hits.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:

but the tempest launcher can tack on another 8-10 wounds,

Are your opponents aware they don't have to move their units around on movement trays and in close-rank formation?

Seriously, 10 wounds? That requires 20 hits.

Of course they do. Where are you getting 20 hits from though? From what I can gather it goes....

5.333333333333333 Reapers Hits
1.777777777777778 Reapers Hits - Guide
3 hits - Tempest Launcher 1 Hits Avg
3 hits - Tempest Launcher 2 Hits Avg
-----------------------------------------------
4.740740740740741 Dark Reapers Wounds
4.5 wounds - Dark Reapers Exarch Wounds w/ Crack Shot
-----------------------------------------------
9.240740740740741 - Total AP3 Wounds

If we give them a standard save.....

6.160493827160494 - Total Wounds after 5+ Save

So without cover and Doom you would have a good shot at wiping 10 marines. With Cover they fair statistically a bit better overall, but if you calculate in Doom or you have any luck killing 10 Tactical Marines is not out of the question.

Cheaper and more survivable option.....

Aegis defense line
Quad gun
Eldrad
3 war walkers with scatter lasers

Guide doom and fortune
Death for enemy, profit for self.

Walkers with a re-rollable 4+ cover. I never thought i'd say it but that is a survivable walker. Eldrad mans the gun. If you want to give eldrad a unit to be in take 10 rangers and put them behind the wall too.

CorpseCommander wrote:
MASSEAN where is there a no pinning in the overwatch phase.

Page 21 from memory, in bold type

Check your statement again. You said a Tempest Launcher alone was responsible for 8-10 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:

but the tempest launcher can tack on another 8-10 wounds,

Are your opponents aware they don't have to move their units around on movement trays and in close-rank formation?

Seriously, 10 wounds? That requires 20 hits.

Of course they do. Where are you getting 20 hits from though?

A guided Walker Squad, and their targets having to reroll armour kills 8 marines a turn. Not a whole squad but good. Also a Walker squad with 4+ Cover can take more shooting compared to the same Dark Reaper squad.

For the person that said Flamers kill Rangers, this is true, but those flamers should not make it to them. Since every 6 is allocated by the Eldar player, the first wounds should go on the flamers, who normally can't LOS the wound.

Yeah i see alot of people are sceptical about the chances of killing a whole tac marine squad. The issue here is cover, obviously, if they are in cover, only the tempest launcher is going to hurt much. BUT you REROLL WOUND TOO with crack. Other than that, all your wounds are wounding straight with no save if they advance past cover. pathfinders are good to pair with eldrad but because i depend on my reapers and wraithlord for protection, I dont pair them with pathies. footdar lists are weak in my opinion, eldar have the best psykers in the game, i always pair them with shooty units. which they have a decent number of. Also hide eldrad behind a wall, no eldar psykers need LOS to cast powers, in codex above psychic powers list.

jbunny wrote:
A guided Walker Squad, and their targets having to reroll armour kills 8 marines a turn. Not a whole squad but good. Also a Walker squad with 4+ Cover can take more shooting compared to the same Dark Reaper squad.

For the person that said Flamers kill Rangers, this is true, but those flamers should not make it to them. Since every 6 is allocated by the Eldar player, the first wounds should go on the flamers, who normally can't LOS the wound.

but if the flamer is in a transport, or if there are multiple flamers in the squad?

 Humbaba wrote:
yes all MCs and all bikes jump packs and jetbikes
also cavalry if im not mistaken.

I am new to eldar so I was wondering if any of you have had success with a footdar list?
or is greater mobility more powerful?

I used a footdar list in 5th a lot and got some pretty decent wins, do not run straight footdar in 6th. Just about the only way to get it to work is to have a shield for everything precious, blob upon blob of guardians with conceal, wraithgaurd, and harleis with their new and improved 4+ cover from shadowseer. Otherwise you get to watch a lot of eldar get gunned down.

Heres the thing OP, I can take two or three (no codex on hand) wraithlords with more diverse gear for the price you pay for dark reapers, and wraithlords can take more hits. I like to guide them and lay waste with starcannons or scatter lasers, but hey thats just me.

 Exergy wrote:

jbunny wrote:
A guided Walker Squad, and their targets having to reroll armour kills 8 marines a turn. Not a whole squad but good. Also a Walker squad with 4+ Cover can take more shooting compared to the same Dark Reaper squad.

For the person that said Flamers kill Rangers, this is true, but those flamers should not make it to them. Since every 6 is allocated by the Eldar player, the first wounds should go on the flamers, who normally can't LOS the wound.

but if the flamer is in a transport, or if there are multiple flamers in the squad?

Yes the flamer can be in a transport, and Eldar have plenty of ways of dealing with AV 10-11 Transports. Guided War Walker squad causes 6 Glances or Pens in one volley of firing which is enough to kill any transport.

Multiple Flamers? You will be shooting more than once a turn. If you set up properly, you should get at least 2 turns of firing, and the rangers will not be your only unit firing at a major threat. At least it should not be.

I used to use squad of 3 warwalkers, unfortunately, in previous editions i often took half a dozen las cannons and still hung in there, no all it takes is a bunch of s5 dinky little pea shooters to glance me to death, holo-fields were nerfed. the new rules made some vehicles more survivable. but not ours. there was nothing more frustrating to any player than to shoot a vehicle with strength 8 weapons 6 times, getting 6 penetrating hits roll 2 die on the damage chart and get 1's and 2's in there, which spirit stones brings them down to 1's. now, all you need is 3- 1's. STUPID gak
ill be honest. I think you should have to get a penetrating hit in order to start dropping hull points. other wise that particular rule is a massive BS to me.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Check your statement again. You said a Tempest Launcher alone was responsible for 8-10 wounds.

I have had it pull out that many wounds, as there have been times launching it into groups of closely packed marines and both end up getting hits with guide. That will give you a huge amount, but even WITHOUT that happening you can indeed do what we were talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CorpseCommander wrote:
I used to use squad of 3 warwalkers, unfortunately, in previous editions i often took half a dozen las cannons and still hung in there, no all it takes is a bunch of s5 dinky little pea shooters to glance me to death, holo-fields were nerfed. the new rules made some vehicles more survivable. but not ours. there was nothing more frustrating to any player than to shoot a vehicle with strength 8 weapons 6 times, getting 6 penetrating hits roll 2 die on the damage chart and get 1's and 2's in there, which spirit stones brings them down to 1's. now, all you need is 3- 1's. STUPID gak
ill be honest. I think you should have to get a penetrating hit in order to start dropping hull points. other wise that particular rule is a massive BS to me.

Personally I think the new system is fine, but I think Holo-Field needs a massive buff to make it worth while now.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Cheaper and more survivable option.....

Aegis defense line
Quad gun
Eldrad
3 war walkers with scatter lasers

Guide doom and fortune
Death for enemy, profit for self.

Walkers with a re-rollable 4+ cover. I never thought i'd say it but that is a survivable walker. Eldrad mans the gun. If you want to give eldrad a unit to be in take 10 rangers and put them behind the wall too.

Is the Aegis defense line tall enough to provide 25% cover for the War Walkers? I've yet to play 6th ed yet and have been trying to figure out how it changes the way Eldar will play.

I can't fathom that a aegis line would be tall enough to cover 25% of a war walker when the bulk of it's mass is taller then the aegis barrier.

Unless you madea custom aegis that is larger which has it's own issues.

 Sarigar wrote:

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Cheaper and more survivable option.....

Aegis defense line
Quad gun
Eldrad
3 war walkers with scatter lasers

Guide doom and fortune
Death for enemy, profit for self.

Walkers with a re-rollable 4+ cover. I never thought i'd say it but that is a survivable walker. Eldrad mans the gun. If you want to give eldrad a unit to be in take 10 rangers and put them behind the wall too.

Is the Aegis defense line tall enough to provide 25% cover for the War Walkers? I've yet to play 6th ed yet and have been trying to figure out how it changes the way Eldar will play.

Yes it definitely gives them a 4+ cover save. Which is GOLDEN for those bad boys. My turtle shell consists of eldrad, 10 rangers, 3 scatter walkers, and 10 guardians w/ scatter laser. Is it perfect? No. Does it survive? Yes. I have never had it fail. Its survived dreadnaught heavy flamers, drop pod sternguard with cover ignoring save bolts, and mass fire. Model positioning is key behind the line (heck I usually make it a half circle/ bubble t protect side flanks too).

Being generous, the dire avenger's head top ends where the bulk of the warwalker begins.



Dire avenger and a CSM for size comparison



Marines are just barely the height of the defense line tallest portion.


Even if the legs of the walker are completely blocked, I'd still have a seriously tough time stating that is 25% of the model. Note not 25% of the height of the model, but 25% of the actual model being blocked.

25% of the facing of the model. Infantry goes to at least the walkers knees if not more. The picture in the rulebook of the rhino getting "25%" for his cover is very generous. If that picture gets you 25% then so does the defense line for a war walker. Walker is 3" in height. Defense line is over 1" tall.

25% achieved.

Yeahhh, not so much. A rhino is a box and 25% of that box is blocked by a forward facing wall and that is why it has cover. A war walker on the other hand is a bulky object resting on two long skinny legs. those 2 legs even if completely blocked wouldn't make up 25% of the warwalker's size.

Unless you are going to be doing some water displacement, or something ridiculous like that, then this argument could go on forever. The rules aren't even specific enough to be arguing over this. The models "facing" needs to be 25% covered. And its front "facing" is over 25% covered. It doesnt say that 25% of the "Mass" of the model, or "the space the model takes up" It just says facing.. That is how I interpret it. I have had no one say a single thing or question it in the games/ tournaments I've played it.

I've asked a tourney organizer for the upcoming tourney I'm attending in November to address this. If I can get a cover save, then this would be absolutely ace. It would make them quite resilient. Running 9 of them (which I typically do) with Eldrad/Farseer combo could be quite nasty. Something I didn't even consider, but will definitely try if it is allowed.

You take 9 walkers?! Jesus that is awesome! I had t work my way up to 3 of them lol. What load-outs do you take? All scatter lasers? If I owned 9, I would probable have one group outflank with shuriken cannons, one group with missile launchers behind the defense line, and one group with scatter lasers behind the defense line.

In 5th, generally 2 x 3 w/ Scatterlasers and 1 x 3 with EML. However, that was with dual Autarchs. I'm still trying to figure out what can potentially work in 6th. I had a lot of trouble running Shuriken Cannons in 5th due to limited range.

I'm pretty much up in the air right now. In 5th, I'd generally run 18-20 vehicles, but I'm not sure how that will fare now with the changes to assaulting vehicles and the glancing chart. I can't reserve the entire army and if I don't get first turn, I'm stuck weathering a turn of fire which can wreck a good portion of the army.

Worst case scenario is to stick the War Walkers behind Wave Serpents for a 5+ cover and cast Fortune/Guide on them. Not as good, but leaves no doubt regarding if 25% is covered on the War Walkers.

However, with a mech build, I seriously seeing that Eldrad/Farseer is necessary in order to cast 3 x Fortune and 2 x Guide per turn.

We'll see. Once I can get in some games next month, I'll be in a better position to discuss what seems to work or not. Right now, I'm all in theory mode.

Just came up with this list. Walker Spam. This is under the idea that a defense line will give walkers a 4+ save (as that is what I believe it will do and I have never had an opponent or tournament director say otherwise).

Eldrad
Autarch- mandiblaster, power weapon, fusion gun, warp jump pack

10 guardians- scatter laser
10 guardians- scatter laser
3 jetbikes +warlcok- embolden, singing spear

10 warp spiders- exarch, withdraw, dual spinners, powerblades

3x walkers- 6 scatter lasers
3x walkers- 6 missile launchers
3x walkers- 6 shuriken cannons

Eldrad, bot guardian teams, missile walkers, and scatter walkers all behind the line (make a half bubble with it). Eldrad guides, guides, and fortunes. SHOOT EVERYTHING.

Shuriken cannons walkers outflank. They have 30" effective range so they will be able to hit anyhting on the board except the stuff in the dead center.

Warp spiders and autarch deep strike in and nock people off an objective/ harass/ blow stuff up/ reak havok/ induce mayhem/ achieve linebreaker.

Jetbikes turboboost to contest.

All i know is that if people are going to get soooo stickler as to say 25% of the facing isn't covered when its close, I'll just get smaller Warwalkers, the older models from the 90's are smaller so then 25% would be achieved.
So if you want to argue over 25%, then I will just go buy smaller models, problem solved.

Nologik wrote:
All i know is that if people are going to get soooo stickler as to say 25% of the facing isn't covered when its close, I'll just get smaller Warwalkers, the older models from the 90's are smaller so then 25% would be achieved.
So if you want to argue over 25%, then I will just go buy smaller models, problem solved.

My thoughts exactly. I'd save some $$ too in the process. Really if people are stupid and stickler, then I will be stupid and stickler myself. Im not breaking the game by trying to get a cover save.

Not breaking the game, just playing their game.. just saying.. It's not enough that we play with a 4th edition codex, it's bad when people get upset when you just try to play your game lol

Nologik wrote:
All i know is that if people are going to get soooo stickler as to say 25% of the facing isn't covered when its close, I'll just get smaller Warwalkers, the older models from the 90's are smaller so then 25% would be achieved.
So if you want to argue over 25%, then I will just go buy smaller models, problem solved.

Most people would let you take the save if its close to 25%... no one wants to waste time debating if its 23,24, or 25%.

The above pic clearly shows that its not even close to 25%... The legs are the only part covered, and those tiny little legs are NOT 25% of the warwalker...front facing or not.

I would have to agree it's not even close to 25%, its over 25%. Considering you don't count weapons for hits, and it's only front facing. It's actually over the 25% by at least 10%.
So by my calculations its over.

Speaking of war walkers, I haven't really see anyone take starcannons on them ? I've been thinking of slowly starting an eldar army as allies to begin with and a squad of 2 walkers with starcannons for 180pts seems good!

8 s6 ap2 shots at 36", that can be guided against a doomed target.... plus cover of an aegis (i know there's a debate around that atm on here), plus outflank

Sounds pretty good to me!?

 BlueDagger wrote:
Yeahhh, not so much. A rhino is a box and 25% of that box is blocked by a forward facing wall and that is why it has cover. A war walker on the other hand is a bulky object resting on two long skinny legs. those 2 legs even if completely blocked wouldn't make up 25% of the warwalker's size.

the skinny legs are not 25% of the model.

I'd definitely get a TO to rule one way or another before going into a tournie and relying on the Aegis to provide your Walkers Cover as a reliable strategy.

That being said, if it didn't fly, you could just bring a wave serpent w/spirit stones/star engines to achieve the same effect (or leave off the star engines and be really careful about placement). Or Jet bikes (as the stand would put them solidly in front of the walkers canopy yet skinny enough to allow you to shoot around).

There's a bunch of different ways to provide cover for the walkers. I think the Aegis probably should be ruled as providing cover, but even if it isn't there are other ways to reliably protect your WW's. Cover is not overly difficult to find. The main idea of having 6-9 walkers being fortuned/guided by Eldrad/Farseer while in cover to provide a resilient fire base is a good one. The problem with the setup in 5th was them being relatively static platforms in a fast mech environment. With 6th going more infantry oriented, this isn't as big an issue, and makes WW's in cover great heavy support options for most builds. Aegis providing cover would make the WW's more point and click than otherwise, but even if not there are reliable ways of providing cover to still make it a good idea.


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 Exergy wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Yeahhh, not so much. A rhino is a box and 25% of that box is blocked by a forward facing wall and that is why it has cover. A war walker on the other hand is a bulky object resting on two long skinny legs. those 2 legs even if completely blocked wouldn't make up 25% of the warwalker's size.

the skinny legs are not 25% of the model.

25% of the height? I'd say they are.
25% of the material comprising the model? No.

Which criteria you are supposed to use is not explicitly spelled out in the book I don't believe.

 Dash2021 wrote:
I'd definitely get a TO to rule one way or another before going into a tournie and relying on the Aegis to provide your Walkers Cover as a reliable strategy.

That being said, if it didn't fly, you could just bring a wave serpent w/spirit stones/star engines to achieve the same effect (or leave off the star engines and be really careful about placement). Or Jet bikes (as the stand would put them solidly in front of the walkers canopy yet skinny enough to allow you to shoot around).

There's a bunch of different ways to provide cover for the walkers. I think the Aegis probably should be ruled as providing cover, but even if it isn't there are other ways to reliably protect your WW's. Cover is not overly difficult to find. The main idea of having 6-9 walkers being fortuned/guided by Eldrad/Farseer while in cover to provide a resilient fire base is a good one. The problem with the setup in 5th was them being relatively static platforms in a fast mech environment. With 6th going more infantry oriented, this isn't as big an issue, and makes WW's in cover great heavy support options for most builds. Aegis providing cover would make the WW's more point and click than otherwise, but even if not there are reliable ways of providing cover to still make it a good idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

the skinny legs are not 25% of the model.

25% of the height? I'd say they are.
25% of the material comprising the model? No.

Which criteria you are supposed to use is not explicitly spelled out in the book I don't believe.

I agree you can certainly find cover for warwalkers, but it is more likely to be the 5+ kind rather than the 4+ kind. The wave serpants are going to give 5+ cover most of the time. You could potentially get 4+ or even completely obscured with the waveserpant though.

25% of the height is meaningless. You can get cover from any combination of angles left right, top bottom. why 25% of the height would be important is beyond me.

 Sarigar wrote:

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Cheaper and more survivable option.....

Aegis defense line
Quad gun
Eldrad
3 war walkers with scatter lasers

Guide doom and fortune
Death for enemy, profit for self.

Walkers with a re-rollable 4+ cover. I never thought i'd say it but that is a survivable walker. Eldrad mans the gun. If you want to give eldrad a unit to be in take 10 rangers and put them behind the wall too.

Is the Aegis defense line tall enough to provide 25% cover for the War Walkers? I've yet to play 6th ed yet and have been trying to figure out how it changes the way Eldar will play.

I use to own Warwalkers, the proper sized ones... and No... the wall will not the bulk of it's size is in it's fat top headed section... a problem for the Stilt walkers out there is that exact ruling if someone tried that on me I'd be glaring that 1 to 2 inches of it's legs are shielded on a 6-7 inch model with it's fat head at the top.

Ultimately I think the problem most of us are having with this is the fact you are trying to manufacture yourself a cover save that goes beyond a friendly scope, the nicest i would ever get in this scenario is say "Roll a die for the result" even then i would actually argue for a no and not sway on it to be 100% honest. You have outflanking and other methods to get yourself a cover save and are trying to be spoiled and say 25% of a particular element allows you to abuse a rule. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU SAY YOU WILL JUST BUY OLDER MODELS that gets under my skin every freaking time because not only is that a sign of poor sportsmanship that is also a sign I'd demand a TO just throw your ass out of my game for saying it. The point isn't to get those models for cheese it is to not punish old time players who don't want to re-invest into new models, it's people like that which send the wrong vibes about 40k and burn out the population and send them fleeing to Warmachine.

For the love of god eldar already have the mobility card now you want to buy your cover saves and be damned if you aren't allowed to rather than play the game and use cover... Tactically? Look man sometimes cover is your buddy and sometimes it isn't if getting cover is so important to you that you want to argue your own ruling we can't stop you from robbing people of a very crucial rule and advantage but at the same time it's clear your tactics only revolve around that and you certainly don't seem to have alternatives to fight that logic such as "well that's fine I suppose I could just Outflank with them, or find terrian during my scout move, or use vehicle shields, yadda yadda yadda."

Why is it I only seem to find rule nazi's being breed before my eyes in codex eldar? I'd love to see you guys get an update but that shouldn't be your crutch for poor sportsmanship either.

This thread sickens me. The people's ignorant comments about trying to achieve a cover save for a weak unit to make it more reliable and longer lasting. Isnt that a tactic that EVERYONE try's to do?! Unless you enjoy standing your models in the open. People are modeling different forms of power weapons onto their unit to get better results. So buying an older unit to save money and have a smaller profile is worse?! Get outta here. Book states 25% of the facing of the model. Does it say the material that comprises the model needs to be 25% obscured? No. It never mentions the "space between walkers legs" or Anythig specific for that matter. And to the guy who thinks walkers are 6" tall or more..... You are horribly wrong. They are no more then 4". Arguing with people like you clearly does nothing.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Isnt that a tactic that EVERYONE try's to do?! Unless you enjoy standing your models in the open. People are modeling different forms of power weapons onto their unit to get better results.

No, Not everyone is trying to obtain cover like a crack addict needs drugs...

Also with the mobility, outflanking to appear in later rounds behind cover on the flanks of the battlefield or scout to allow you to move outside your deployment zone to obtain cover early before the game begins are all methods you CAN get cover. But I am saying when you are trying to intentionally screw someone over for the sake of power then you are just announcing you are the exact type of player that i finds tend to ruin this game. If you think protecting the shins of an osterache is any form of defense for it then you wouldn't be someone i ever ... ever... EVER would give leeway with rules with.

I am normally real nice when it comes to games i bend rules if it makes sense but if you want to stay hard iron on this rather than try and learn how to play with those models then maybe tabletop startegy games aren't the best fit for you man. Either way it's nothing personal, it's just aggervating to hear those words especially with paper thin attempts to justify that Squig poop kind of behavior in a game which is suppose to be about forging narratives and feeling badass when you accomplish something strategy like showing up on a flank with 6 scatter lasers in the woods and mowing down the enemy as they were trying to rush your gunline.

Think smarter not harder.

So please explain the point of an aegis defense line if I'm not suppose to be trying to achieving covet behind it. Isn't that the point of ALL the fortifications? If your mad because GW put in the ability to use them, that's your own problem. Speed isnt as huge as a game changer when a 3+ to hit a fast skimmer can destroy it. My forces are t3 and av10 with 2 hull points. I'll try to achieve cover when I can. So forgive me if I use a new game mechanic (fortifications) to do so. The ruling isn't 100% on the topic. Do we know what counts towards the percentage of the vehicles facing or not? No. We don't. So dont make assumptions about another player you have never met. You have changed this from people discussing 2 sides of a rule into something else entirely. Your rant brought nothing to the debate. All you did was come in and insult players trying to improve their odds by utilizing new game mechanics.

Best thing to do is check with your TO.

And if there is a better ruling or FAQ that determines the outcome of this, there is always other ways to get walkers cover saves. Honestly, I could instead purchase a sky shield landing pad and put my walkers on it for a 4+ invulnerable save. They would even sit higher up then and have a better view.

Ahh yes, true LOS and subjective cover. The reasons I don't play this game competitively with strangers.

GWs rules are pretty clear. Cooperate with your opponent, you are working together to have fun. This concept is flawed at its core.

For what it is worth. Anything even remotely close to 25% cover and LOS is going to be good enough for me. I don't need to nickel-dime anyone to win, and these arguments literally can not be solved within the framework of the 40k rulebook.

My advice to anyone. Just give them the cover save and the LOS. Everyone is happier ultimately.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
So please explain the point of an aegis defense line if I'm not suppose to be trying to achieving covet behind it. Isn't that the point of ALL the fortifications? If your mad because GW put in the ability to use them, that's your own problem. Speed isnt as huge as a game changer when a 3+ to hit a fast skimmer can destroy it. My forces are t3 and av10 with 2 hull points. I'll try to achieve cover when I can. So forgive me if I use a new game mechanic (fortifications) to do so. The ruling isn't 100% on the topic. Do we know what counts towards the percentage of the vehicles facing or not? No. We don't. So dont make assumptions about another player you have never met. You have changed this from people discussing 2 sides of a rule into something else entirely. Your rant brought nothing to the debate. All you did was come in and insult players trying to improve their odds by utilizing new game mechanics.

Best thing to do is check with your TO.

And if there is a better ruling or FAQ that determines the outcome of this, there is always other ways to get walkers cover saves. Honestly, I could instead purchase a sky shield landing pad and put my walkers on it for a 4+ invulnerable save. They would even sit higher up then and have a better view.

It's not the invention of the wall, it's the abuse of it for stupid rules you could get elsewhere, You are an eldar player man, use the terrain and tactics not cheese. The wall is a fine little piece of wargear to hide low height vehicles and infantry behind but your stilts walkers are just too talk and too massive at the top to be considered by almost anyone I've ever played with as "cover" you are claiming it is and i take issue with it because you, unlike a majority of armies do have the ability to simply say "ya know what, i am not gonna even walk down this road of douchery... I'll just go ahead and get something that could be a little more concrete in my favor."

Speed is literally one of the best tools of the eldar not gunlines, though it is a fine back up plan if you don't know how to handle it. Either way the point isn't the model or if you could or couldn't the point is YOU WILL MAKE IT HAPPEN even if your enemy wants to say you can't. Infact you drag a TO into this mess which i dunno if you noticed this. but TO's aren't in the majority of games people play only Tournaments, that means you need a be a big boy and work those things out without sounding like a complete jerk which most people do because of the exact reasons you are stating.

Speeding skimmers have a 5+ cover save just for moving, get them in night fight and guess what they can claim a 3+ and have just as many guns as a war walker with better armor and the ability to negate effects. if you want durability you should look into vipers instead of war walkers if you want the guarantee. But the laughable fact that the piolot and the majority of the model is hiding about the cover just makes me laugh till i realize you are serious and have subjected people to this kind of bad rules arguing. To me the War Walker is an amazing model with the ability to ruin someones day, be it poping in out of no where on the enemies side of the board and wiping them off an objective as they force the enemy to now choose advance or retreat to reclaim objectives. Or they can just support a gun line as well while wading through difficult terrain and saying they are hidden within it due to yet again the impressive outflank ability.

To me sir, it's one thing to use the rule in ignorance, which is 100% forgivable. To me it's disgusting when i see people bringing this to your attention and all you do is retort "Well i'll get a model that will let me then." It is on topic for me because this is a discussion about tactics and you are trying to pass it off as legitimate when it is VERY SHADY at best nor should it be suggested to others to encourage people to start seeing you as TFG. I am insulting you because you are literally trying to continue to justify this ruling and so far few if any have supported the claim. to me you represent a class of gamers which plague the game and slow down a hobby and turn it into a chore. I wish you the best of luck when it comes to victories I even have offered you suggestions and concequences for trying to embrace such an ill conceived action. But it's clear this subject is upsetting you when I call you on BS but offer you alternatives and advise to not seem like a abuser but rather a tactician.

I've said what i needed to. I suggest skimmers for your tactics, they are durable and fast and are great and getting to an objective or holding down a line, if you want something that stands there and shoots you will be in store for someone down the road who will yell at you about your interpenetration of the rule if that is your objective (which is seems to be) to ride the grey area long as you can I am going to say this again. You don't understand how to use the Eldar Correctly and should be asking different questions. Personally I'd take the defense line just for the quad-gun which tears down flyers and provides you an excellent additional gun, but at a high point value. If you are saying the whole point of purchasing the wall those is to give that unit specifically cover then i sadly think you don't realize how much better those points could be serving you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shep wrote:
Ahh yes, true LOS and subjective cover. The reasons I don't play this game competitively with strangers.

GWs rules are pretty clear. Cooperate with your opponent, you are working together to have fun. This concept is flawed at its core.

For what it is worth. Anything even remotely close to 25% cover and LOS is going to be good enough for me. I don't need to nickel-dime anyone to win, and these arguments literally can not be solved within the framework of the 40k rulebook.

My advice to anyone. Just give them the cover save and the LOS. Everyone is happier ultimately.

Wise words, I ultimately restate "i'd be willing to at best to do a dice roll off" but that would have been before i saw the 'well i'll get a model it works for then' Friendly gamer = laid back enemy willing to cut some breaks, even in tournaments around here.

I'm sorry. You are right. You are obviously the know all god of warhammer who has all the right rulings and all the right answers to everyone's questions. Thank you for clarifying that rule in your infinite wisdom. And telling me how to run my lists and my army.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I'm sorry. You are right. You are obviously the know all god of warhammer who has all the right rulings and all the right answers to everyone's questions. Thank you for clarifying that rule in your infinite wisdom. And telling me how to run my lists and my army.

Glad we cleared that up Troll, enjoy what victories you get kid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onto other subjects, I've been hearing mixed reviews about seer councils are still being viable at this time. I thought with the downgrade of armorbane they aren't as end all be all anymore though i can say fortune while still able to get cover, invuln and armor is Veeeeeeeeeery annoying for most players to deal with. Has anyone ran into something that strikes them down easily or is this just a unit which is bound to be tough no matter the circumstances? I've been trying to give one of my eldar buddies some advice which came down to 3 vipers, 3 walkers, a wave serpent with dire avengers and a farseer, and a falcon with fire dragons and lastly a unit of rangers hiding in the brush. Sadly he sees bad results against me and my Dakkageddon list with orks because it's perscribing to the idea that i have too many wounds to deal with properly before i break the enemy with sheer volume of gunfire and kannons, a warboss holds back with the group incase the enemy comes to blows me with. But obviously assualt isn't something the eldar are keen on meeting orks on the battlefield for.

Would you say the suggestions I've offered him would get the job done at low points or would it be better to reconsider for an all comers list using something else?

We were discussing the rule of obscured/ hull down before you started saying things. I hardy believe that was trolling. No one was insulting anyone until you post. This thread has been quite de-railed. I have had about 50% to do with that. So my apologies. It seems I come off as a sarcastic troll to you and you come off as a not helpful know it all to me. I'm sure neither are actually true.

To get this thread back on topic.... It is labeled eldar and dark eldar and I have seen nothing about dark eldar.

/gravestone here

Dead Forum people, move on out.

To try and get the thread back on some kind of DE/Eldar track:

Back in 4th, one of the most common War Walker load outs was a 50/50 mix of star cannons and scatter lasers.

In 5th, w/ all the 4+ cover, i don't know anyone who took star cannons because they're so damn expensive and the difference between the 3+ save a marine gets and the 4+ you'd have gotten in cover made it inefficient.

Now that cover is mostly 5+, i wonder if we'll see more star cannons.

Tried this list, with good success vs a BA player. It's not hard, but locally, we don't play that hard, so it's about right. with a few tweaks i'm sure you can toughen it up.

1750pts - Eldar w/ DE allies

Farseer - runes of warding, primaris divination power
The Duke

wave serpent w/ scatter lasers, 5 fire dragons

5 dire avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter lasers

5 dire avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter lasers

10 wyches (hekatrix (agoniser)) w/ haywire in raider w/ shock prow and night shields

9 wyches (hekatrix (agoniser)) w/ haywire in raider w/ shock prow and night shields

Nightwing (FW eldar flyer)

3 war walkers w/ 3 scatter lasers, 3 star cannons

3 war walkers w/ 3 scatter lasers, 3 star cannons

Edit: spelling

 chelsea_hollywood wrote:
To try and get the thread back on some kind of DE/Eldar track:

Back in 4th, one of the most common War Walker load outs was a 50/50 mix of star cannons and scatter lasers.

In 5th, w/ all the 4+ cover, i don't know anyone who took star cannons because they're so damn expensive and the difference between the 3+ save a marine gets and the 4+ you'd have gotten in cover made it inefficient.

Now that cover is mostly 5+, i wonder if we'll see more star cannons.

Tried this list, with good success vs a BA player. It's not hard, but locally, we don't play that hard, so it's about right. with a few tweaks i'm sure you can toughen it up.

1750pts - Eldar w/ DE allies

Farseer - runes of warding, primaris divination power
The Duke

wave serpent w/ scatter lasers, 5 fire dragons

5 dire avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter lasers

5 dire avengers in wave serpent w/ scatter lasers

10 wyches (hekatrix (agoniser)) w/ haywire in raider w/ shock prow and night shields

9 wyches (hekatrix (agoniser)) w/ haywire in raider w/ shock prow and night shields

Nightwing (FW eldar flyer)

3 war walkers w/ 3 scatter lasers, 3 star cannons

3 war walkers w/ 3 scatter lasers, 3 star cannons

Edit: spelling

that list is illegal as the duke MUST deploy with a unit of warriors.

also the consensus is that agonizers arent worth it anymore as they are AP3. Better to save 15 points and take a venom blade.

The Duke MUST deploy with a unit of warriors if there are any but if there are none he deploys like any IC (as per the FAQ)

And really, you wouldn't take an agoniser because it's not AP2? The whole point of the star cannons is to remove the 2+ armour; the wyches are there for AV14 and to tarpit assault troops that aren't in 2+ armour.

but to each their own

Edit * 2: spelling

Exergy, i guess you have been seeing what I have too with the agonizer usefulness. It seems now, forcing saves with multiple wounds is doing better/ worth more then dropping 15pts on the agoniser. Sadly, our hekatrix's will probably be sacrificed to the challenges to let the rest of the wyches do their job. Losing 5 pts is better then 15. At least to me.

The only thing I could see agaisnt this is if you only picked tac squad equivalent units with no characters that have 2+ armour. But with the way things have seemed lately, those units are harder to come by. Wyches have started to shine more in other roles (haywires in a venom). Which really sucks becuase they were such nice units to use for combat before. Not that they cant still be used for combat, but just as effectivly. Everything I have read and seen shows 5 with grenades or 15 for tar pit

With the raiders and fleet, i haven't had a problem picking my targets for the wyches such that the agoniser is still useful. sure, they can't tangle w/ termies like they used to, but vs any 3+ save T4 or more target, the agoniser still seems good to me.

maybe not 20 pts good, but good enough.

and w/ 4 attacks on the charge, at I6, i'd be happy to have a 3+ wearing sargent type challenge me. decent chance they'll be dead before they swing. hell, i'd be challenging them just for the chance to remove the leadership buff on the squad

Its good to see another point of view on this as well. You have a strong case for the agoniser. I loved that darn thing in 5th edition. I hope to still use it in 6th, but I have seen a lot of people saying no.

So you are saying to just stay away from IC's with 2+ saves right? and the hekatrix should still be fine?

What about when charging, you keep her at the rear of the unit to not get shot down by overwatch?

overwatch hates wyches, but here's an interesting thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/472377.page

it's another 10 pts, but has some interesting implications, esp since even w/ Difficult terrain roles, wyches can usually make it about 7~8" because of fleet and now they get a save.

have yet to try it though.

i just think that with the mobility you have, you should be able to pick and choose who the wyches assault, and therefore how effective they'll be. and yes, i keep my hekatrix in the 3rd row, just in case. and i try not to assault very shooty things without softening them up 1st (war walkers are great at that, as are your pistols once the war walkers have shot)

add in the Duke's double drugs roll (and the fact that his attacks ignore armour on a 5 and 6 to wound) and you've given your eldar list some CC punch for very little.

and they're scoring, just in case.

So if you take no kabolite warriors.... You can have the duke join any unit in deployment? Hmmm that sounds very tempting. But it's hard to not take an KW's or true born. You can always do the switcheroo but that takes the whole first turn.

I also really liking the baron as a utility character for dirt cheap price. +1 on who goes first is invaluable, gives Stealth, and something else too. Re rolls to difficult or dangerous terrain mayb? I forget. But he is also another awesome GW choice.

While the Duke has a couple of different benefits, i feel like the drugs are the best one. The FAQ makes it clear he's just an IC UNLESS there are warriors or trueborn in the list, at which point he has to start w/ one of their squads.

The idea behind the list was to add some CC punch (and some haywire) at price lower than the eldar codex CC, while still retaining the mobility that makes the DE (and the eldar shooting) so effective.

since you can only have a single allied HQ it's a toss up between what each spc character can provide, but i'm in favour of the Duke so long as you run at least 2 sets of wyches. the extra drugs roll is invaluable helping you avoid the dreaded "1".

I'm starting to think that (I'm so mad at myself for saying it) eldar should be allied in instead. Farseer or eldrad, rangers/ pathfinders, warp spiders for a mobile or fast list, guardian jetbikes, and war walkers.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I'm starting to think that (I'm so mad at myself for saying it) eldar should be allied in instead. Farseer or eldrad, rangers/ pathfinders, warp spiders for a mobile or fast list, guardian jetbikes, and war walkers.

I feel your pain. I have actually shelved the Eldar and started a chaos army after I realized my every list I built with DE allies would be better if the CW:E were the allies instead. Eldar have great units overall with only one or two duds (looking at you swooping hawks), but the price for them is just to much two editions later (cept Eldrad who's a bargain still).

Also I'd say you are about right with the standard Eldar allies list. Think I'd go with two jet bike units and no pathfinders though.

Yea it comes down to personal preference with the jetbikes/ rangers for troop choices. And also determined by the dark eldar units that are taken. I think it would be fraking sweet to see gjb's with warlocks and seers and reavers with the baron possibly and then a mobile duke somewhere else on the field. Mobile eldar goodness :-) I may work on a list like that if/when money starts to come in.

I think the warwalker argument is silly, and here are some pictures why.

People argue height vs actual physical model. The space between the legs is NOT part of the model/unit.

I have 3 pictures for you. The first is a rhino. As you can see I have drawn a line from point to point capturing its shape.
Now, the people who claim warwalkers can claim cover if it goes to their knees-
The physical model itself has a large gap between the legs. If you say that you are receiving cover from that, then I say I can shoot that gap. So If i can't see your warwalker and I can see that empty space between its legs in a window, I can shoot it. If it counts for your model when determining LOS for cover, then it counts for your model for determining LOS for shooting. So I can shoot your model if i can't see your model because you say the space between the legs of your model IS your model for claiming cover.
Here is a picture.
The green outline is for people claiming cover at the knees- it seems this shape is how you view the warwalker for cover/LOS. The yellow is the way I think it is. Look at the rhino above. See the empty space between the actual model and the red outline? Lets do it again, with a CSM rhino with all its spikey bits.Look at all that empty space! You need to cover 25% of that outline, the shape, of the rhino. That is, If warwalkers gain cover from their knees.

TL;DR- If people want to claim the gap between two parts of their model for cover, this needs to be applied to all models. Look how ridiculous it gets.

-edit- Next page and a bit late but what the hey!

Not to beat a dead horse here, we all can continue to disagree. I do see what you are saying. I have counted that gap both ways. So IDK.

This is a pretty crude sketch here I did with my laptop track pad, if you want I can spend a little more time to do something more finite in photoshop.

The theory is that One orange oval and one blue oval is equal to about 25%. So a total of 4 orange ovals and 4 blue ovals make up 100%. Its not exact by any means but its a pretty close call.

Just food for thought.

How convenient! You've included almost all the area BELOW the red line, aka the area covered by the aegis defence line! You've decided to ignore various chunks and bits ABOVE the line!

Keep trying to twist the rules for your models please. Its amusing

OH I KNOW

Model your own ADF, all eldar styles. Make it higher than the ADF, high enough to cover your WW. That'll work!

You clearly aren't getting what I was trying to show. I was attempting to show that it is a close call for the 25%. That is all. It wasnt convenient. Im not saying that this proves my point and that others are wrong. Im just showing that the defense line covers up "ROUGHLY" 25%. I twisted no rules in what I just showed.

Ovals were all that paint gave me to work with. As I said, its no masterpiece. I just did it to show that it is close to the 25% line then some people were claiming. That is all.

your attempt to show that the lower part of the legs is 25% is absurd...

If you took into account all the space on the upper part of the walker that you didnt fit into your ovals... it would be FAR less than 25% covered.

Try making square shapes that actually sit flush against one another and see just how different it turns out...

I can gladly take it into photoshop tommorow to do a better "evaluation" of the photo. It would be even better if there was a picture of the walker standing behind the defense line.

But in all honestly, this is just silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I wasnt proclaiming that it was "exactly 25%" I just said it is closer then what people have been making it seem. The calculation wasn't exact therefore I never said ti gave me an exact answer. I feel like people dont read what I write.

get out the planimeter !

 Exergy wrote:
get out the planimeter !

LOL! I definitely just had to go look up what a planimeter was

Why don't you guys just take the cover argument to the Rules Questions forum? People there enjoy parsing the vagueness that is the GW rulebook, and you will no longer have to plague the rest of us with this childish back-and-forth.

 Razgriz22 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
get out the planimeter !

LOL! I definitely just had to go look up what a planimeter was

yeah, I had to use one once for my job. Dusting it off and figuring out how it worked was a chore but they are cool.

Its like a compass on steroids!!

Im pretty much done with the debate about the walkers. Much rather talk about other stuff.

So I have seen people talking about putting the baron with a group of reavers. They would boost them immensely but does that not reduce their movement capabilities to what the barons profile allows? Jumpy infantry? So that group cant turbo boost anywhere meaning no blade-vanes or cluster caltrops. Anyone have any experience with this?

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Its like a compass on steroids!!

Im pretty much done with the debate about the walkers. Much rather talk about other stuff.

So I have seen people talking about putting the baron with a group of reavers. They would boost them immensely but does that not reduce their movement capabilities to what the barons profile allows? Jumpy infantry? So that group cant turbo boost anywhere meaning no blade-vanes or cluster caltrops. Anyone have any experience with this?

it prevents turboing, but turboing is volintary.

i tend to start the baron with reavers and then if i see a juicy bladevane target I will detach and have him either join another squad or hide behind a bush.

Not a bad idea. I may have to try that one out. I will also have to start strategically placing bushes in my backfield with little signs next to them that say the Baron isn't here. :-)

So say you keep the Baron with the unit. You move up at 12" speed and go after what kind of target? The baron adds 5(?) S6 attacks to a charge i believe. So The unit isnt super CC. I suppose an arena champion can bring an agoniser to the fight. But wouldnt you be feeding him to a challenge to keep the baron safe?

If not CC, then shooty? So then anti tank or infantry? Maybe I just lack direction with this unit as it can do many things. I have also seen running it with an Autarch which adds a fusion gun or reaper launcher for shooting (anti tank or anti infantry) and a power lance for lots of S6 ap3 Charge hits. But as much as I love autarchs, they are sort of expensive.

Or maybe not an autarch? But a dooming Jetseer? Or possibly roll for book powers? Go for misfortune or somehting and fall back on prescience. And also just take psychic shreik outright. That mightbe something to look at.

Are hellions worth it? or they out of the picture?

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Not a bad idea. I may have to try that one out. I will also have to start strategically placing bushes in my backfield with little signs next to them that say the Baron isn't here. :-)

So say you keep the Baron with the unit. You move up at 12" speed and go after what kind of target? The baron adds 5(?) S6 attacks to a charge i believe. So The unit isnt super CC. I suppose an arena champion can bring an agoniser to the fight. But wouldnt you be feeding him to a challenge to keep the baron safe?

If not CC, then shooty? So then anti tank or infantry? Maybe I just lack direction with this unit as it can do many things. I have also seen running it with an Autarch which adds a fusion gun or reaper launcher for shooting (anti tank or anti infantry) and a power lance for lots of S6 ap3 Charge hits. But as much as I love autarchs, they are sort of expensive.

Or maybe not an autarch? But a dooming Jetseer? Or possibly roll for book powers? Go for misfortune or somehting and fall back on prescience. And also just take psychic shreik outright. That mightbe something to look at.

Are hellions worth it? or they out of the picture?

Hellions are pretty terrible, I wouldnt try it.

I tend to run 6 bikes with clusters and a arena champ with venom blade with the baron. I also run another squad with clusters and heat lances. I bladevane anything where I know I can get away without getting charged. After that I look for targets of oppurtunity where I can put all the wounds on special weapon or champions hiding in the back(once you bladevane over them, they are the closest model)
With the jump infantry/jetbike movement they tend to be able to get a lot of places. Thus I use the unit to pile into something that I am already assaulting. With proper force concentration there is nothing i wont charge.

What makes hellions so terrible? Are they just outclassed by other units in the codex?

 Razgriz22 wrote:
What makes hellions so terrible? Are they just outclassed by other units in the codex?

the cost as much as a space marine but have T3 and a 6+ save.
they arent killy enough to make up for it. In fact they hit just about as hard as an assault marine. 3 attacks at WS4 and Str4 on the charge.

so for the same cost
BA assault marines have ATSSNF, T4, 3+ save, special weapons
hellions get slighty better shooting, random drugs, hit and run, and init6. WOOOHOO.

You seem to hold a lot against hellions :-P whatdid they do to you lol. Comparing across codecs is a sketchy business. And I always find it difficult to do. Maybe not as much so with allies anymore though. As with most things in the eldar/ dark eldar realm, they work best with Support and synergy. So The duke allowing re-rolls for drugs is wonderful.

I would also never take hellions without being lead by the baron. The hellions have a 5+ armour which is punched through by almost every shot :-(. I beleive they would do great moving trough cover with the baron allowing them to much a full 12" (if i have read jump infantry rules correctly) but take a dangerous terrain test. The baron allows re-roll to failed tests. With the barons stealth for the unit their cover save gets a boost as well. The baron could also take a lot of the shots wit his 2+ save up front.

Depending on the drug role they could do anywhere from average in combat to somewhat decent. With a volley of splinter fire and a solid charge they could put a hurt on some things.

They may not be..... awesome... but i feel they could serve a purpose in some lists. Idk, maybe I am jsut scraping the bottom of the barrel here...

Or maybe I just love their models...

 Razgriz22 wrote:
You seem to hold a lot against hellions :-P whatdid they do to you lol. Comparing across codecs is a sketchy business. And I always find it difficult to do. Maybe not as much so with allies anymore though. As with most things in the eldar/ dark eldar realm, they work best with Support and synergy. So The duke allowing re-rolls for drugs is wonderful.

I would also never take hellions without being lead by the baron. The hellions have a 5+ armour which is punched through by almost every shot :-(. I beleive they would do great moving trough cover with the baron allowing them to much a full 12" (if i have read jump infantry rules correctly) but take a dangerous terrain test. The baron allows re-roll to failed tests. With the barons stealth for the unit their cover save gets a boost as well. The baron could also take a lot of the shots wit his 2+ save up front.

Depending on the drug role they could do anywhere from average in combat to somewhat decent. With a volley of splinter fire and a solid charge they could put a hurt on some things.

They may not be..... awesome... but i feel they could serve a purpose in some lists. Idk, maybe I am jsut scraping the bottom of the barrel here...

Or maybe I just love their models...

hellions also dont have grenades
while they can get assault(and defensive) from a 20 point upgrade, they will never threaten dreads.

That's why hellions would always run with the baron. And dreads are rarly fielded anymore that I see. So
I don't worry about them.

Helions are expensive in points yes, but they have a greater flexibility that Kalabite troop choices don't have. It's like comparing Assault marines to Tactical marines, they suit different jobs, depends on your army configuration
\

I feel that in an Eldar/ Dark Eldar list that runs on the fast side with a Seer Council possibly and guardian jetbikes, you could ally in the Baron with a pack of 10-20 Hellions along with some reaver squads, it could make for a pretty quick on its toes list.

Been following this thread for a while, figure its time for me to weigh in, and also ask some questions while I'm here.

Now, keep in mind, I'm basically a sam-hain player with a love of exodites. So, I have a lot of eldar guardians riding around on Velocipators, strapping on shuri-cannons, and being awesome (for 48 in movement, we hide a rocket booster under thier tails, brothers and sisters. We don't model it in, as that would be dumb, but its there. Oh yes it is). And I hope to put pictures of them when their done up on the gallery. So, bikes, and anything bike related are very much a part of my tactics.

but I got my start with a gun-line, and I'm feeling like it might be time to return to that ol' work horse of the eldar list. So, few things to comment on.

First and foremost, my two cents about the walker argument. For me, my bikes set up high, being on flying bases and all, and generally, if an ork or a marine can see my head up over the hill, he can take his pot shots. pretty much, if the PILOT is un-covered, I'll let 'em call BS on my cover save. From the design, and I've held a few in my hand, the Ageis was designed with poor lil' guard in mind, so they could hide, and cry as bigger, scarier gak came at them. And yet, I can hear guard players laugh from here at the thought of hiding a Leman russ or the like behind a few pieces of ceramite. Besides, we're eldar. Why are we relying on filthy mon-keigh weapons to save us? How ever, if we must, I like rangers back there. take 6 instead of 5, and have one man, at bs4, man the gun at all times. Simple, easy, and our poor lil' elfy asses are covered. Walkers are better used elsewhere, though all things told, with Jinx coming in, vypers just got a new lease on life, mm?

There was an early discussion on dark reapers. I loved my reapers in 5th. Loved them all the time. Why, brothers and sisters? because when properly suppored, they could reliably end everything from a squad of khorne berzerkers fresh out of the pop up toaster that is a rhino, to Trygons-in-a-box popping up to say hello. With the marines, did it kill them all? No, but it did enough to where they were running away from my line, and if they are running back, that's more ground they now have to cover to get back to me. Keep-away is the name of the game,and reapers are good at that. plus, and bs3, ap3, even unguided reapers can still lay a hammer down if the Dice of Khaine are with you.

Right now, I'm really looking at two units hard. One is my Seer Council, and the other is my Warp Spiders. Spiders come first, as they have been the most frustrating. Now, I play a lot of orks. And by a lot of orks, I'm having to deal with upwards of 60 shootas, 3 cannons, a dakka jet, and 7-10 loots on average at 800-850 points. THATS a piss-ton of dakka. And, generally, my warp-spiders deep-strike in, kill 5-7 orks (kff sucks now that it stacks with shrouded and steath) then, no matter how far they jump back, die die die in the next round of shooting. And at thier price, that's a VERY expensive suicide unit, and they NEVER make thier points back. How are anyone else using them in 6th? IS anyone else using them ins 6th?

And the Council, long the main-stay of any good Sam-hain army. These guys are tough as everything, and take fire like a champ. Heck, I'm in a low-points leage, and even a farseer with guardian jet-bikers can take a pounding as long as fortune is kept up. (had a Dakkajet waaaaagh on me, just today, and a seer with 4 guardian jet bikes took 12 heavy duty shots, and only lost one guy) The differentiation, and the fact that they HAVE to kill thier way though chodes to get to your main guy means your rolling saves one at a time, and with re-rollable 3+/4++, one at a time means very few lost models. However...in my games, my jet bikes tend to sit there. Pop out, shoot 3-6 shots (depending on your cannon situation) and then...nothing. With a lack of vehicles, and fear of over-watch, where is the niche of our 300pt+ wrecking ball? how are people running councils right now, and if aggressively, How in the hell do you play an "aggressive" eldar force in 6th ed without getting chewed up like so much wraithbone?

I feel an aggressive eldar force in 6th edition.... isnt even an eldar force. Its a Dark eldar force with Eldar allies. Utilising both teams jetbikes and abusing fortune 2++ saves. At least it aint a flying circus

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I feel an aggressive eldar force in 6th edition.... isnt even an eldar force. Its a Dark eldar force with Eldar allies. Utilising both teams jetbikes and abusing fortune 2++ saves. At least it aint a flying circus

*shakes head* way to not answer his well thought out questions and statements.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I feel an aggressive eldar force in 6th edition.... isnt even an eldar force. Its a Dark eldar force with Eldar allies. Utilising both teams jetbikes and abusing fortune 2++ saves. At least it aint a flying circus

*shakes head* way to not answer his well thought out questions and statements.

And yet my post STILL added more to this thread then yours just did....I don't know why you even felt the need to post if that's all you had to say.

Moving on...
I do agree agressive eldar is slightly more difficult to play in 6th but as I stated it is boosted by bringing in another team that can match eldar a speed and aggressiveness. Dark eldar bring things to the table that eldar don't. So it allows for a wider set of "tools" to use so to speak.

Seer councils..... Hmmm that's sort of a love hate relationship. I think they are still viable as they are just as tough to kill. But as always, sting tactics must be used with them. Witchblades still have a decent effect at rear armour 10. They are also still great at forcing saves in cc. But I find myself taking a few more spears now. But that reduces the amount of attacks I put out in CC. So I guess tailoring the unit to Try to match up against what you will be using it for. Maybe they just lack a general direction now?

An expensive but still very useful tactic is taking along an autarch as well with a laser lace, mandis, and fusion gun. No MEQs can stand up to that.

Another thing I have seen done is baby council compromising of gjb's a warlock with embolden, enhance, or destructor with spear, and a farseer With fortune and maybe doom. Possibly adding the baron for a 3+/4++ for all the bikes and the ability to hit and run.

 Razgriz22 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I feel an aggressive eldar force in 6th edition.... isnt even an eldar force. Its a Dark eldar force with Eldar allies. Utilising both teams jetbikes and abusing fortune 2++ saves. At least it aint a flying circus

*shakes head* way to not answer his well thought out questions and statements.

And yet my post STILL added more to this thread then yours just did....I don't know why you even felt the need to post if that's all you had to say.

Well you seem to be the one trying to mine information here, someone posted up a really well written post on the topic, and you completely ignored it
And now your "Moving on..." having a conversation with yourself, since the last person to post up part of the eldar/DE dialogue you ignored and kept waffling =\


*pulls out chair popcorn and beer* I'm curious to see how long you waffle to yourself

My "moving on" comment was aimed at speaking with big Mek. I then continued on to more thoroughly answering/ discussing the topic of agressive eldar and seer councils. Which was asked about a few comments back. So I really have no idea what you ate talking about.

See, Here's my thing. First and foremost, I am beginning to seriously hate the idea of allies, because it's causing us all to lose focus on our armies. "Oh well...we just don't have that, so we're going to go to another army and get it" Is not an answer when trying to look at the strengths and weaknesses of our main force. If I wanted to play dark eldar, trust me, I'd be playing dark eldar. So things like the baron, or kabalite warrior, or any of that is completely not a look at agressive eldar.

So, with dark eldar off the table (hopefully), at that point, I would like to begin a discussion on what I feel are our most viable units, and a look at ways of continuing to use them. Now, unfortunately, all armies fall into routine. So, constant talks of "banshee's suck" and "Dark reapers are no good, use 3x3 war walkers!" allow us to build our armies into ruts. Now, keep in mind, as a saim-hainn player, I have a thing for speed, and I'm interested in people's takes on Shining spears. Comparitively, they are already 10 points cheaper than warlocks w/o powers, and despite the power weapon nerf, still hit at 6 and 8 (exarch star lance) respectively. At that point, for those of us interested in running a second seer, would a single fortune seer with a spear allow us to create a minor death-star from this seemingly under-used unit? I know we're not talking Nob bikerz or anything, but that's alot of ap3 ass kicking, and it can move really really fast. What does anyone else think? Spears get a bit of a new lease on life with both Hammer of Wrath and the new JB rules?

And despite thier general weakness, I would like to visit Vypers, and also with that, hull points. War-walkers are very much considered to be one of the better Heavy support choices that we have, mostly due to volumes of fire. But they are slow. very very slow. They are also AV 10, and only carry two hull points. So, for example, I brought 3 to a fight with my Ork buddy recently, they popped out, killed 3 damned orks (scatter walkers with bad dice), but man, three dead orks, and then BAM, the dakkajet ended all of three of them. Based on that, and the fact that the vypers now all have jink, similar volumes of fire to a war walker ( a shuricannon and a scatter laser is still 7 shots), is it worth the point cost for lots of mobility, similar dakka, and with night fight, very consistant cover saves? Oh, and freeing up our heavy support slots.

I know this is a thread for all eldar, dark and craftworld, but I think right now, with DE having a new codex and more options, we eldar players need to look beyond over-costed units and ap3 banshees, and really try and see how a 4th ed codex fairs on its own merits.

Oh, and as a matter of course, I would also like to hear success stories of people running autachs, because as it stands, I cannot for the life of me find a single moment, in any list, or any fight, where an autarch adds something I couldn't be doing better with a Farseer. And adding a single melta, or a few power weapon attacks doesn't seem worth what normally costs more than most of our special characters.

I would say that the warp spiders are sort of an unsung hero squad. I have never heard anyone complain about them but I also don't see them fielded all the time. I plan on purchasing the models in the near future and giving them a go.

Mobile walkers..... Aka..... Vypers. I haven't quite been impressed with them, but then again, I haven't really had to much bad to say for them either. The jink save gives them that added bit of survivability which is nice. But their price always turns me off. Unless I want a strict skimmer/ jetbike army, I end up cutting them. The 24" of the Shuriken cannon always has turned me off. Maybe I am just spoiled with the scatter laser. But if I'm in 24" then so are they. S4 shots have a way of ending av10, 2 hull point vehicles. But maybe I am just being too precautions with them... Idk. I usually get my S6 fill elsewhere. Which really sucks because I like their fluff and models and I have a group of 3, just never really use them :-(.

Shining spears, now we are talking :-). I was a little scared to ask about them due to the amount of people who would scream "they are trash!!" at me. But a group of 5 (1 being an exArch) with a fortune seer would be a death all of ap3 goodness. Not quite as resilient as a normal council but still hits certain things harder then one. I don't have their stats Infront of me but the only thing I remember hating was the amount of attacks they have on the charge. If you take the autarch with lance and all that jaz, you should have more then enough attacks.

Which leads to the next thig you mentioned. The autarchs. I have always loved their fluff and how you can just scratch build them to suit your needs. But they don't fit in everywhere. I have taken one with my seer council before to give them more of a punch. Six S6 attacks on the charge at a high initiative (boosted even higher with enhance) was just solid. He single handedly would wreck squads before anyone else even swung. Is he worth the points spent? That is always a tough question. If his reserve modifier helps you out at all then maybe he is more worth it. I'd say he is an average pick but can be used very well in the hands of a smart player. Pretty sure he comes stock with haywire grenades as well (can't quite remember) so he can help a little there too.

I would like to see/ hear how a shining spear council plays out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And when you take an autarch vs a farseer... That's a tough comparison. I would almost always take a second farseer. The only time I have actually ever fielded autarchs is on a bike with a lance as I mentioned above. Outside of that role, I just don't see the worth. a foot slogging autarch Is always beaten out by the avatar. The only oter thing I could think of is a jet pack autarch with spiders to give the unit a fusion gun and larger beat stick for combat. But for the price... I don't think it would be worth it.

Razgriz22 wrote:My "moving on" comment was aimed at speaking with big Mek. I then continued on to more thoroughly answering/ discussing the topic of agressive eldar and seer councils. Which was asked about a few comments back. So I really have no idea what you ate talking about.

Which was the purpose in my post was to get you to not brush off his comment...

VegaGreywolf wrote:See, Here's my thing. First and foremost, I am beginning to seriously hate the idea of allies, because it's causing us all to lose focus on our armies. "Oh well...we just don't have that, so we're going to go to another army and get it" Is not an answer when trying to look at the strengths and weaknesses of our main force. If I wanted to play dark eldar, trust me, I'd be playing dark eldar. So things like the baron, or kabalite warrior, or any of that is completely not a look at agressive eldar.

So, with dark eldar off the table (hopefully), at that point, I would like to begin a discussion on what I feel are our most viable units, and a look at ways of continuing to use them. Now, unfortunately, all armies fall into routine. So, constant talks of "banshee's suck" and "Dark reapers are no good, use 3x3 war walkers!" allow us to build our armies into ruts. Now, keep in mind, as a saim-hainn player, I have a thing for speed, and I'm interested in people's takes on Shining spears. Comparitively, they are already 10 points cheaper than warlocks w/o powers, and despite the power weapon nerf, still hit at 6 and 8 (exarch star lance) respectively. At that point, for those of us interested in running a second seer, would a single fortune seer with a spear allow us to create a minor death-star from this seemingly under-used unit? I know we're not talking Nob bikerz or anything, but that's alot of ap3 ass kicking, and it can move really really fast. What does anyone else think? Spears get a bit of a new lease on life with both Hammer of Wrath and the new JB rules?

And despite thier general weakness, I would like to visit Vypers, and also with that, hull points. War-walkers are very much considered to be one of the better Heavy support choices that we have, mostly due to volumes of fire. But they are slow. very very slow. They are also AV 10, and only carry two hull points. So, for example, I brought 3 to a fight with my Ork buddy recently, they popped out, killed 3 damned orks (scatter walkers with bad dice), but man, three dead orks, and then BAM, the dakkajet ended all of three of them. Based on that, and the fact that the vypers now all have jink, similar volumes of fire to a war walker ( a shuricannon and a scatter laser is still 7 shots), is it worth the point cost for lots of mobility, similar dakka, and with night fight, very consistant cover saves? Oh, and freeing up our heavy support slots.

I know this is a thread for all eldar, dark and craftworld, but I think right now, with DE having a new codex and more options, we eldar players need to look beyond over-costed units and ap3 banshees, and really try and see how a 4th ed codex fairs on its own merits.

Oh, and as a matter of course, I would also like to hear success stories of people running autachs, because as it stands, I cannot for the life of me find a single moment, in any list, or any fight, where an autarch adds something I couldn't be doing better with a Farseer. And adding a single melta, or a few power weapon attacks doesn't seem worth what normally costs more than most of our special characters.

You bring very good points and obviously I am familiar with your play style. In my personal opinions, Eldar are still best built 2 ways, soft gunline [I say soft cause i saw what allies could do tonight (Guard and Orks) and barely endured it... ] Or cleaning off weak objectives and contesting others. The first idea is how i use to play them all the time, I would use snipers to force them foreward dire avengers to deal with armor 2 or hordes and banshees for the assualt back in the day. not and days mechcanized lists aren't too used though but i oddly enough find vec squadrons becoming more powerful and frequent. I really like the idea of shining spears and the fact is since guns have become such a hard staple in this edition you could very easily clear distance resist heavy fire and engage the enemy in close combat. Tonight i found NO SQUADS capable of bearing an assualt, so all i did was just rush my last enemy and punch him clean in the face with shoota boyz, You can do that just as well dropping artillery and weak troops (even marines), stay engaged for your assualt and disengage after his own with nearly a guaranteed chance of success and move into a new unit letting your scatter lasers and/or snipers finish off the skeleton of a even 20-30 model unit if hit properly it's all about using everything as effectively as possible.

I also agree whole heartedly about Allies and I fully support tourneys that allow them because it provides far too much power to people who want to min max. If this threat is purely about mixing the two it's a shame because it's rarely being done now because no one is enjoying the dumb combinations starting to spring up and doing what you are doing is perfectly acceptable and encouraged by most players to learn your own rather than cheese out as much as possible like a few people I've already wasted too much time with. Learning how to use the Eldar as best as possible and cope with changes rather than try and fill in the gaps is the proper way to play, i just hope that eldar gets it's update soon is all

Vypers have always been more my playstyle, and the fact you can take cover just for moving makes them so much better now in my mind as a fast attack compared to the horrible alternatives which seem far too overpriced to me.... that being said vypers aren't cheap... but compared to other choices which just don't seem to pay for themselves the way i would like to see... i suggest them before anything else except shining spears obviously.

Autarchs... you are on your own they are a horrible option they only paid off for me back in 4th ed and that was it.

Thanks guys. Those are the kinda things I'm hoping to get kicking in this thread. As i continue to battle-test stuff, I will keep my questions and opinions going.

Getting ready for work this morning, I read the comments, and thought about something. Vypers and thier cost.

As eldar players, we get used to paying though the nose, pretty much consistantly. but lets look at the unit that is kinda staples of our world. The Warwalkers (again, they fill a similar role).

If you look at the vyper, in it's classic incarnation ( shuri-cannon and scatter laser) it literally only runs 10 pts more than a dual scatter war-walker (most common there too) You give up out-flank, and you give up another shot and a bit of range on one gun, but you gain lots of mobility, and a spammable cover saves. and with hull points, I would think more survivability.

The only moment that they become more efficent is the out-flanking double shuri walker, and there, your getting into almost double points. but the shuri-walker is a VERY specific build for a very specific purpose, and I don't think you can make it anything else. the range is too short to be anything but a harrying unit.

But for basic fire support and survivability (I'm lookin' at you, dakka jet!), I think the nod, even at 10 points, now a days goes to the vyper. Now, if only the'd let the vyper "jetbike" have JB movement rules, we'd all be happy and go out and buy lots of 'em.

So I tried out the guardian jetbike mini seer council thing today. It was a real tough unit to kill. And could fly in and contest an objective and fight to control it and not get sent packing. The downfall being it just didt pack the kind of firepower i felt it needed too. But if your lookig for a SOLID troop choice, that is something that I never Realy thought of, but it works for that. A tough scoring unit that is hard to wipe out.

I think I tried to play it like a normal council though. So that could have been a bad player error on my part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I tried the 3 outflanking dual Shuriken walkers as well. And I just didbt see the results I wanted. I did have some bad bs 3 rolling though. I honestly would have rather taken vypers that game. So maybe I will dust those bad boys off :-).

 VegaGreywolf wrote:


So, with dark eldar off the table (hopefully), at that point,

except the title of the thread is "40K ELDAR and DARK ELDAR thread." There are plenty of mono Eldar and mono DE threads about.

 Exergy wrote:

 VegaGreywolf wrote:


So, with dark eldar off the table (hopefully), at that point,

except the title of the thread is "40K ELDAR and DARK ELDAR thread." There are plenty of mono Eldar and mono DE threads about.

So now you are excluding people? Wow leave it to snooty eldar

I kid, but in all seriousness wouldn't asking questions about either or someone stating they only want a single part of the dual information be successful?

You want the optimization of Eldar and/or Dark eldar allies? You should be inviting discussions about them from all sectors and facets even if their needs do not match the original post, which is all he was doing; stating he thinks people need to brush up on an old codex a bit more than pat each other on the back about how cool Dark eldar are.

Hey DARKNESS ETERNAL, the dark reaper exarch powers include both crack shot, and fast shot. The exarxh has BS 5, with a tempest launcher, which is Heavy 2 blast, S 4, AP 3 (marines). you are rerolling scatter with guide, and crack ignores cover saves taken against this weapon. AND makes you reroll wounds. thats hits AND wound, AP 3, No armour, No cover. Rerolling both hits and wounds. do you see the death now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HEY EVERYONE

Id love to hear your thoughts on a 1000 point eldar army ive got going.

HQ - Eldrad (210)
TROOP1 - Pathfinders x (6) (144)
TROOP2 - Pathfinders x (6) (144)
HEAVY1 - Dark Reapers x (5) exrk, temp L, crack S, (205)
HEAVY3 - Wrathlord, 2 flamers, missile L, B lance (150)
HEAVY4 - Wrathlord, 2 flamers, missile L, B lance (150)

1003p
This is an ally battle, my ally is playing Nob rush orcs. against space wolves and chaos (nurgle)

 CorpseCommander wrote:
Hey DARKNESS ETERNAL, the dark reaper exarch powers include both crack shot, and fast shot. The exarxh has BS 5, with a tempest launcher, which is Heavy 2 blast, S 4, AP 3 (marines). you are rerolling scatter with guide, and crack ignores cover saves taken against this weapon. AND makes you reroll wounds. thats hits AND wound, AP 3, No armour, No cover. Rerolling both hits and wounds. do you see the death now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HEY EVERYONE

Id love to hear your thoughts on a 1000 point eldar army ive got going.

HQ - Eldrad (210)
TROOP1 - Pathfinders x (6) (144)
TROOP2 - Pathfinders x (6) (144)
HEAVY1 - Dark Reapers x (5) exrk, temp L, crack S, (205)
HEAVY3 - Wrathlord, 2 flamers, missile L, B lance (150)
HEAVY4 - Wrathlord, 2 flamers, missile L, B lance (150)

1003p
This is an ally battle, my ally is playing Nob rush orcs. against space wolves and chaos (nurgle)

Wraithlords are more than likely killed from long-fangs and obliteraters, Dark reapers will scare enemy so Space wolves will probably drop a deadnought or grey hunters via drop point in front of them unless completely sheilded by wraithlords, Path Finders will i assume be holding objectives? this will mean the easiest way to disrupt your movements is Jaws of the war wolf on orc Bikers as well as demon prince declaring a challenge and buying the entire army time to fight , shoot and move away and positon the army to continue iron clad wall your offensive unit.

it's dangerous but to many armies they will sense you have no true way to dealing with them in CC once the wraithlords are down, the orks should be used defensively rather than aggressively.

My ally, hes going to run 40 boys, 10 nobs, with warboss in trukk, maybe a battlewagon, and or aegis defence for me, and marybe ard boys, but basically a footslogging transport army, do you have any suggestions for defence against getting drop podded first turn by space wolves, whether termies or dready..

Been following this for a while too and I thought I'd chime in.

So far, I've found that 6th edition has been very kind to Eldar on the whole - Jetbikes got a major boost, our psychic powers got harder to block on the whole (barring Doom) and our shooting just got better.

However, needless to say, our sub-par assault units got even worse - to the point where Scorpions and especially Banshees are near unusable.

Despite this however, my games have shown me that the Seer Council is now definately a credible threat again - Fortune is godly in 6th (and I feel, a neccessity for Eldar) and the ability to be in your opponent's deployment zone in turn one - while no longer needing to forego Fortune - is unreal. I think the Council is definately the way to go for a take-all-comers style Eldar list, especially when Eldrad is sitting in the back supporting War Walkers etc.

Iranna.

I'm a Dark Eldar player, naver played Eldar as primary so can't comment too much on that subject. I have been finding that War Walkers are a great addition to DE, however.

High volume Str 6 shooting is great when paired with double figures of lances and high volume splinter. It fills the hole (armour 10-11) that those guns are not optimal for and can shift to infantry chewing if there's nothing else. Outflanking with them is also extremely complementary as 2 voidravens arriving upfield the same turn war walkers pop up from the rear is simply excellent. Makes decisions on what to shoot difficult even for gunline guard (especially when the rest of your army is filthy with venoms and contains a ravger).

Ok, few things to comment on, and something to ask the collective. First and foremost, gonna comment on Corpse Commander's list.

First and foremost, the thing I'm seeing in that list is an eldar gunline without the guns to back it up. I don't want that to sound cruel, but let me explain my position. Eldar have 3 things we can spam the hell out of: Psychic powers, Mobility, and str 6 bullets by the boat load. You have, in that list, taken a very quality heavy army. Now, granted, your playing with orks, so that's good that you have someone to rely, but here's my thing. Rangers are good for camping on your objective, and not drawing attention to themselves. As an eldar player, one thing I hate to do, so much that i forget to even when it's tactically useful, is move my rangers. I don't care what needs claiming, i pick a good spot, and they stay there, as long as they can. Using two squads gets you alot of very powerful shooting, but you loose mobility, and you have nothing that can quick claim an objective, or try to go for little quick victories (i.e. end game contests, or end-game linebreaker). The one squad's good, but I would say maybe some jetbikes? maybe some dAs? but something you can get across a battlefield if you need to.

the wraithlords....ver powerful mobile fire base, and each one only has two shots. Yes, it's two shots a BS 4, but it's two shots. means, if you have to fire at infantry, your killing 2-6 (depending on how you roll, and how much he packs his guys together for the small blast). If you want to use them both, great, but make one, say, scatters and eml, and the other eml and lance for a little bit of flexability. Or, for close to thier points, you might be able to do some walkers or (if you push it) vypers to provide supporting fire to the tank-cracking WL.

Love Dark reapers, ain't gonna talk bad about them. They are nasty to anything with a 3+ save, from tervigons to trygons to marines.

NOW, first of my two topics for discussion. Multiple seers instead of Eldrad. I feel you get better coverage and more options taking, say, a doom and fortune seer in your council, and a guide and doom seer in the back. They can get expensive, and you have to REALLY build them for thier jobs, but you get a better area of affect going that way, and you can end up with 4 powers for only a little more than eldrad. What do other people think? Is a two-seer list viable, or is eldrad still our king of kings?

The other thing I wanted people's opinion on tonight was your experiences with / thoughts on Shining spears in 6th. I know there's this big shy away from assault right now, but let me give an example. Last week, I have a game against a buddie's space-wolves with my Sam-hainn list. I had a fortune and doom seer flying around with a squad of 4 spears (hit and run, star lance exarch, with a cannon on his bike). gonna say, bs 5 on a shrui-cannon is awesome to lead with going into an assault, and fun to plink with from the outside till you decide to assault. But here's the thing. Based on our rules, with a star-lance, we're still hitting with a str 8 ap 3 weapon on the charge for 3 attacks. That's auto-kills for alot of non-monsterous creatures. And, since the laser lance is a power-lance that hits for str 6 (and that's still true), we have a quick hitting assault unit that, unless it's a termie, we're killing the minute we hit it. I wiped a full squad of long-fangs, turned, and while I didn't get my second charge off, I still hit hard when I had to. Plus, with the new change to power-lances, we still count as ap4 when not on the charge. Much better than the str 3 slappy fights we had in 4th and 5th. Running with the seer, and not only did i have an invunerable save to throw challenges at, but got re-rollable 3+, with lots of heavy duty power weapons on the charge. They take some finess, but as long as you don't get caught with your but in the wind, they can do alot of damage very quickly. And before anyone comes at me with cost, the cost 10 points less than a 'lock on a bike, and 20 points if you give them any power other than embolden. That can make for a very durable, very hard hiting council alternative if your looking for such a thing. What do other's think? are Shining spears worth taking? Or not?

I personally love the hit and run aspect of the Shining Spears, I like the flexibility of them.

I agree with the quality heavy list, i fear outflanking landraiders, deep stiking termies, dready etc. these tactics have been to most devastating to me. how ever i feel confident that my 2 6 man squads will preform well because of my pinning checks, and ap1 on hits of 5+6. rending then again on wounds if not already ap 1. thats all units being no armour. my wraithlords perhaps need a change. should i change both to 1 brightlance, 1 scatter or star?
i want to maintain a no armour saves army. this i find can make an enemy feel sick to their stomach about charging your ass when youve ticked em off.
I think veyga youve given me some of the best advice yet, any more with the wraithlord strategy that i can use to effectively keep them alive and firing?
and my original list was so:
1000
eldrad,
dark reapers x5, tempest, exarch, crack,fast
pathfinders x 6
dire avengers x 10
wave serpent, star engines, star cannon, spirit stones,
wraithlord, BR, Missile, 2 flamers.


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I also think running a jetbike army is briliant, accept for the price. unless you buy on dakka or ebay
However, it is somewhat boring if you dont like assault much
:/ which is me.
BTW also wondering which do you feel is a better army for my aly in tourney,
DE or ORCS
DE
probably vect, or hemonculous,
if vect, in raider, hemonculous with 10 trueborn
then 1 more raider with kabalite x 10,
and 2 wrack squads, maybe a ravager
basically snipers and some cheap CC

ORCS
trukk with 10 man nobs with warboss, 2 x 20 boy squads, 20 ard boys, and a deffrolla battle wagon
basically objective spam and meat shields



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oh nobs are in trukk
too

The thing about jetbikes (and keep in mind, I'm bias) is the fact that, even a min squad of 3 with an embolden-lock (around the price, points wise, as your rangers, maybe a bit less) gives you access to turn 5-6 fun. Get to the bottom of turn 6, and what happens? if you went second, turbo boost across the field, and claim line-breaker for an extra objective point. See a lone objective an opponent forget about? away they go, and grab that point for you. If your not using them as the heart of your army, like I do, a small squad can give you some late-game awesomeness, if you use 'em right. And if your using them for that, I'd say reserve them (keep 'em from getting shot up, you know?)

Wraithlords. The thing about them is, really, why do you want to keep them from getting shot? The thing to understand about them, as the last bastion of T8 in the game, they remain VERY VERY scary to any oppoent staring them down. And best part is, if they are firing on your wraithlords, they are NOT firing on your Dark reapers, far-seer, ect. I recommended more shots on them because, and this is kinda important, the more shots you can focus into single squads on your opponents side, the more likely you are to claim first-blood. Unless they just happen to have a boat-load of lascannons, wraithlords can be pretty hard to bring down. But, they are also really big, and hard to protect. Pray the toughness brings you though.

And kinda a final comment on all this. In terms of allies, I don't use 'em much, but if it was me, I'd be bringing orks. They provide a few things you don't have: namely cover, and bodies. (oh and if you go DE, don't bring the space pimp. Vect is WAY over-priced for someone who doesn't do assault. If you have to take DE, take baron instead). I mean, basic contingent of orks, take two squads of 30 shoota boys, nobs with claws, big shootas, and a big-mech with a KFF. If you want more fire power, bring lootas. And more boyz. But bring VOLUMES of bodies, not quality units like nobs. Let your orks handle the trash, let your eldar handle the elite, and screen with big, green bodies.

Because keep in mind, while your running an armor denial army, what do you do when your staring at a 'nid player with 4 tervagons that produce 36-50 gaunts a turn? What do you do against 120 ork boyz infront of cannons and lootas? Or, gods help us all, foot-guard? Right now, your spec-ed to kill the hell out of some marines. But anything coming at you in mass is gonna give you alot of trouble. Try and find a nice balance, and your army will slowly begin to handle more smoothly.

Well, so far for me, I've found that the need for speed is paramount in the 6th ed. This is especially true when playing with the Hammer & Anvil deployment .

My list (for 1750pt games) is consists of:-

Eldrad
Farseer: Spirit Stones, Guide, Fortune
3 GJB + Shu.Cnn
3 GJB + Shu.Cnn
3 GJB + Shu.Cnn
6 Fire Dragons
5 Fire Dragons
3 Vypers: Starcnns, Shu.Cnns
2 Vypers: Starcnns, Shu.Cnns
2 Vypers: Scatterlasers, Shu.Cnns
Falcon: Pulse Laser, Starcnn, Shu.cnn
Falcon: Pulse Laser, Starcnn, Shu.cnn
Falcon: Pulse Laser, Starcnn, Shu.cnn

Main problem is against AV12 flyers (Stormravens & Vendettas). I have better luck against the other flyers (Ork Bommers, Stormtalons, Razorwing) though.

So guys i played in the tourney with my list of
Eldrad
2 x 6man squads of pathfinders
1 wraithlord
5 dark reapers
aegis wall with quad gun.

ally, true born squad with 3 lances
ravager
hemonculus
wrack squad
eldrad
2 squads of dire avengers

OUTCOME

we were survivable against everybody. pathfinders were amazing at pinning and monstrous creatures
the trueborns were tough against vehicles and infantry HQ's
the ravager was amazing with eldrad buffs.
the wracks were good at merely keeping assault units at bay for a bit
the wraithlord served as a body guard quite well
dire avengers help objectives and served to thin out infantry squads with blade storm
as well as overwatch efficiently

BTW we faced a nid army with a tervagon tubes got tied first round and it got shot up. I guess we got lucky but the pathfinders would have been brutal to the pin check for a turn




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We took 3rd
although we were in second. and killing first place.
we lost the final round due to fething linebreaker rule which in my opinion is complete BS as we wiped the NID/ DE army off the table by 90%
tied objectives, had 1 and took first blood and two warlord kills.
still lost because they hid their nids in the back near the objective. so they got 2 and got line breaker with 4 guys.
BAGHHH Fkk SHTTT

Im assuming you took book powers for eldrad? And not the normal codex powers. I was just curious as to what powers the Ravager was benefiting from?

Eldrad 1
-Doom
-Guide
-Fortune
-Mind war
- Eldrich Storm

Eldrad 2
-Misfortune
-Precognition
-Prescience
-Forwarning

this allows to give units multiple buffs per turn while allowing for a variety of buffs to address ant type of situation that occurs during an unpredictable enemy turn. 4 up invul+ is amazing power when combined with fortune makes for a super resistant unit that will definitely survive any attack. this is amazing for a tank or high point value unit that is likely to be targeted. My reapers have been a strategy for along time, and when they sit in between two farseers that can either give them an invul+, fortune, guide, or doom the unit they target it means that you have a survivable mass murderer of infantry god i love the 2 farseer combo its amazing now with powers that can be rolled or chosen.
This battle allowed a team to take 2 of the same character, in a singles tournament however I would take Eldrad and an additional farseer with 3-4 powers taking probably rulebook perhaps codex powers to provide some stability in game.

Eldar players- use 2 farseer its called Buffing Beatdown Bro.


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BTW the ravager was benefiting from an invul save of 4+ and ALWAYS fortune. Sometimes a Jink save when necessary.

1. As far as I know, you can not take 2 of the same named characters even when using the double FOC at 2000 pts. Dont quote me there but I believe that is true. And if it is, then there is no double eldrad that can be happeneing.

2. You cant target the ravager with fortune. Fortune only targets ELDAR units.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
1. As far as I know, you can not take 2 of the same named characters even when using the double FOC at 2000 pts. Dont quote me there but I believe that is true. And if it is, then there is no double eldrad that can be happeneing.

2. You cant target the ravager with fortune. Fortune only targets ELDAR units.

it looks like they are doing a 2v2 in which case you can use any ally rules you want as they are not covered in the rulebook.

As I stated in my message. I dont think he read my whole message.

And Btw. Dark eldar are ELDAR, same race, different licing space. Its like saying humans instead of space marines or inperial guard.
and also the rulebook states battle brothers can benefit from warlord traits and psychic powers in battle.
DE and Eld are BB's so its all cool.

 CorpseCommander wrote:
As I stated in my message. I dont think he read my whole message.

And Btw. Dark eldar are ELDAR, same race, different licing space. Its like saying humans instead of space marines or inperial guard.
and also the rulebook states battle brothers can benefit from warlord traits and psychic powers in battle.
DE and Eld are BB's so its all cool.

Except p3 of the Eldar Codex FAQ explicity states the exact opposite of your arguement. Can't cast Fortune on a Ravager.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570042a_Eldar_v1.1.pdf

The FAQ was written specifically Agaisnt the notion of dark eldar being the same as eldar. They are two separate entities. The same as comparing ultra marines and grey knights.

Indeed, unfortunately their name is their race, so it goes both ways. But I see what your saying its just Im finding room for argument. The Faq does say no fortune, guide, however it says nothing about the rulebook powers not being able to work so full steam ahead with that.

Also guys, has anyone run DE lists when allying with eldar. Im curious what you guys think about raider gunboats.
I was curious also if anyone has a take on the UPGRADES for Raiders.

3 lists Im thinking of.

A vect.
raider (upgrades?) Splinter, night shields, (maybe retro jets?)
10 kabalite wrs. blaster, darklance, sybarite, blasters pwr weapon,

OR

A vect. w.DIAS
see above (none)
10 Kabalite wrs. Blaster, Darklance.

OR

A vect
Raider (upgrades?) retro jets, splinter wracks, Night sheilds, maybe flicker f. for INVUL not cover, covers weak when DS near enemies, need CC protection.
True born x 10 w/ 3 blasters 1 Darklance,
Kabalite wrs x 5 w/ (nothing)

CAN roughly spend 525-575 points for this army so if you have a DE codex and can add it up
while your suggesting it Id appreciate it.