So a buddy of mine was in a tournament this past weekend and had what I think is a bad ruling against him. See what you guys think.

So his Storm Talon gets shot the previous turn and he jinks as a flyer. As a flyer, when you jink you have to shoot snap shots the following turn. During his turn he switches to Hover Strike Mode. While in Hover Strike Mode you switch your type from Flyer to Fast Skimmer. he went to fire at BS 5 with all of his weapons at a squad of 3 Tactical marines on an objective. His opponent argued he had to snap fire because he is a flyer and the TO agreed. Long story short, he didnt kill the marines because of BS 1 and lost the game.

Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Appreciate the feedback.

You never stop being a Flyer. You become a Fast Skimmer, but never cease to be a Flyer. There is no contradiction here.

The model evaded, and so may only Snap Fire next turn.

There is no permission to disregard that.

So when a Storm Talon switches to Hover Strike mode then Templar, is it still hit on 6's? That doesn't seem right. You don't stop being a flyer but gain skimmer status? Seems contradictory.

I dont have my SM Codex on me at the moment. What is the exact wording when you go to Hover Strike?

But you also cant switch modes to ignore the ruling of a previous rule.

Im affraid its pretty much spot on with the final result.

I'd agree with the TO on this one. Can't say I'd be shocked if a GW FAQ later ruled the opposite way though.

Templar, i'd like to know like Yeeman if the Storm Talon stays being a flyer or switches its mode. If it never stops being a flyer, how can it also be a fast skimmer?

Jackal when the Storm Talon switches to Hover Strike, does he stop being a flyer? If so, then jinking only effects flyers and forces flyers to shoot snap shots, not fast skimmers. Why can he not switch modes to ignore the result? He stops being a flyer and becomes a skimmer. Nowhere does it say you can't switch modes to ignore jinking results.

Lobukia, why do you agree? Can you be more specific?

I just dont see that if he switches his mode to skimmer and stops being a flyer how he is still effected by jinking. Can someone cite a rule or something to make me think otherwise?

DE Elder wrote:
So a buddy of mine was in a tournament this past weekend and had what I think is a bad ruling against him. See what you guys think.

So his Storm Talon gets shot the previous turn and he jinks as a flyer. As a flyer, when you jink you have to shoot snap shots the following turn. During his turn he switches to Hover Strike Mode. While in Hover Strike Mode you switch your type from Flyer to Fast Skimmer. he went to fire at BS 5 with all of his weapons at a squad of 3 Tactical marines on an objective. His opponent argued he had to snap fire because he is a flyer and the TO agreed. Long story short, he didnt kill the marines because of BS 1 and lost the game.

Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Appreciate the feedback.

You never switch your type. You are always a Flyer. You are simply treated as a Fast Skimmer for purposes of movement, assaults etc. If you "cease" being a Flyer, then you can never switch back from Hover to Zooming as Skimmers do not have that rule.

It is still a flyer, and also acts as a Fast Skimmer.

How would being a Fast Skimmer negate the fact that it Evaded last turn? He still dodged.

It doesnt make sense that he would be both.

So if he stays a flyer, while in Hover Strike he is hit on 6's and cant be assaulted?

Units can have multiple different types/qualities. A Falcon is a Fast Skimmer Tank. Canis Wofborn is an Independent Character and also Cavalry.

A flyer in hover mode is treated like a fast skimmer. But this doesn't magically exempt it from the consequences of Evading.

What wouldn't make sense is a pilot making a series of desperate evasive maneuvers, which interfere with his aim, and then saying "no wait, I'm not a flyer, so those don't count anymore". The rules are designed to represent a situation on the table. The interpretation I'm giving you is my best understanding of the RAW, and it's more more representative of the situation that's supposed to be happening in the game.

Evade forces snap shots the next turn. Even if you lose flier, you're still forced to use snap shots as you evaded last turn.

 Mannahnin wrote:
A flyer in hover mode is treated like a fast skimmer. But this doesn't magically exempt it from the consequences of Evading.

The Storm Talon doesn't enter Hover mode, as it doesn't have the 'Hover' rule, it has 'Hover Strike' instead

Hover Strike specifies that the Storm Talon changes its type to Skimmer until the start of its next movement phase. It doesn't gain Type: Skimmer... It replaces 'Flyer' with 'Skimmer'.


I would say in this case that because Evade is an effect that lasts until your next turn, a Flyer that chooses to Evade would simply be unable to stop Zooming while Evading.

The problem with your Hover Mode logic is that Storm Talons dont have Hover Mode, they have Hover Strike. They are two completely different things.

BRB pg 81, "If a flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly like a Fast Skimmer." It does not say it changes its type nor loses its flyer status, just that it is treated as a fast skimmer.

WD entry for Storm Talon, "At the start of its Movement phase, a Storm Talon can elect to make a special Hover Strike attack. if it does so, it changes its type to skimmer and cannot move, but can pivot on the spot." Here it says that it actually does change its type to skimmer. This makes me believe that it ceases to be a flyer and becomes a skimmer while in Hover Strike.

Unlike Hover Mode, Hover Strike says it "changes its type," Hover only says it is treated exactly like a fast skimmer. There is a big difference here.

Still, if the Talon doesnt lose his flyer status, if he enters Hover Strike, does he still get hit on 6s and cant be assaulted? If the answer is yes, then he would snap fire. if the answer is no, he gets hit on normal BS and can be assaulted, he is not a flyer than. i think the above quote shows that he is no longer a flyer but changes to a skimmer.

My best understanding is he changes his type to fast skimmer, and thus avoids the evade clause that effects flyers only. Evade only effects flyers, and sense he is a fast skimmer, he is not restricted by evading.

@insaniak

I agree with everything until your last part. Why can't they switch modes? It stops being a flyer, so it doesnt have the restriction of Snap Shots.

BRB pg 81 "An evading flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap Shots." The Storm Talon stops being an evading flyer and becomes in essence a stationary skimmer. I do believe it replaces its type with "skimmer." In evade, it doesnt say that skimmers shoot snap shots, but flyers. If your not a flyer, how can you be restricted to firing snap shots?

Even with that wording, changing the type would not change the ongoing effect.

The ongoing effect only effects fliers. The Storm Talon is no longer a flyer but a skimmer.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
I agree with everything until your last part. Why can't they switch modes? It stops being a flyer, so it doesnt have the restriction of Snap Shots.

It can't choose to stop being a flier, because it has an ongoing effect that says that it is Evading (which is a specific thing that affects Flier movement) until the start of its next turn.

Where does it say it cant stop being a flyer if it is evading?

It doesn't need to. Evade is a rule that applies specifically to Fliers. If it stops being a Flier, it therefore can't be still Evading... which it has to, until its next turn.

Outlining factors, such as Hover Strike can effect whether it has to still be evading or not. There is no restriction on Hover Strike that says "you cannot enter this mode if you are evading." It just just "At the beginning of the movement pahse..."

The over-arching principle of any ruleset is 'Break No Rule'.


Yes, you have a rule that lets you change your vehicle Type... but if you do so, you are no longer Evading, because Evading only affects Fliers.

You have no option to choose to stop Evading. Evading has to be in effect for your next movement phase. So if you choose to do something that means that you are no longer Evading, you have broken that rule... ergo, you can not choose to take that action.


This is no different from how GW have ruled in the past on, for example, Khorne Berzerkers, who had to assault if possible, and so were forbidden from doing anything in the Movement or Shooting phase that would disallow them from doing so.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
So when a Storm Talon switches to Hover Strike mode then Templar, is it still hit on 6's? That doesn't seem right. You don't stop being a flyer but gain skimmer status? Seems contradictory.

I dont have my SM Codex on me at the moment. What is the exact wording when you go to Hover Strike?

its hit normally.

You must be Zooming to gain Hard to Hit. A flyer that is Hovering or Hover Striking is not zooming.

The option to stop being a flier happens at the beginning of the movement phase. Nothing restricts me from doing that if i am evading anywhere in the BRB, Codex, or WD entry.

You only have evade if you are a flier. Without being a flier, I no longer am evading. You yourself even said that it changes its type and replaces "Flier" with "Skimmer."

How can a skimmer evade? It cant, therefore it cannot be effected by an ability it cannot possess.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
Without being a flier, I no longer am evading. .

...which you have to be, because when you chose to evade, you accepted an effect with a specific timeframe.

This reminds me a lot of the vehicle dmg effects on passengers and the final point with that was that the effect carries through. Changing to hover in order to avoid the snap shots sounds as dumb as models disembarking after a vehicle stunned and call that they are no longer passenger therefore free to shoot.

The unit has gained the effect "only snap fire" for the following turn. It also has a special, which allows it to stop moving and hover in place, increasing BS by 1 and making attacks pinning. Neither disallows the other.

So, the talon in question can hover in place like a skimmer, be shot at with full BS by enemies, gains +1 BS and pinning, and can only snap fire. RAW. simple.

My question is it really this hard to understand your friend was trying to game a rule that specificly states can only fire snaps shots in the next turn. You can't tell me you dont understand DE eldar.

@Lobukia

He doesnt hover in place LIKE a skimmer, he IS a skimmer. There is a difference. He becomes a skimmer, and is no longer a flier.

Read the Evade rule, it does say you snap shot until next turn. However, only Fliers can evade, only fliers are subject to having to snap fire. The Storm Talon is no longer a flier, a requirement you need to evade, and a requirement you need to be to have to snap fire when you evade.

Don't say RAW, because by RAW I am right. You have no RAW quotes or any evidence to back up anything you have said. So no, its not simple.

@Lungpickle

How was he gaming a rule? I have provided quotes and evidence in his favor and you have offered nothing? I want some sort of evidence that refutes what I have said. So far, no quotes or RAW have been presented.

Reread page 81 Lung. Read who has to fire Snap Shots. It will say fliers. Well, if your not a flier, how are you forced to fire snap shots?

No, its becomes a Fast Skimmer.

But it never says it ceases to be a Flyer.

In a permissive ruleset you MUST be told something ends for it to end.

You are never given permission to not be a flyer, therefore you remain a flyer.

DE Elder wrote:
@Lobukia

He doesnt hover in place LIKE a skimmer, he IS a skimmer. There is a difference. He becomes a skimmer, and is no longer a flier.

Read the Evade rule, it does say you snap shot until next turn. However, only Fliers can evade, only fliers are subject to having to snap fire. The Storm Talon is no longer a flier, a requirement you need to evade, and a requirement you need to be to have to snap fire when you evade.

Don't say RAW, because by RAW I am right. You have no RAW quotes or any evidence to back up anything you have said. So no, its not simple.

I'm sorry, I missed the rule where changing types, for any reason any where, allows you to ignore effects
I'm apparently also missing the rule that only flyers that are still zooming suffer evade penalties. The book is actually fairly careful to say "zooming flyer" when its something specific to the zooming flyers (go figure). The evade penalty is to the flyer (model, not a movement type).

That stormtalon is still that stormtalon, and that stormtalon earned an effect until its next turn... changing how you move doesn't lose that, find me a rule that gives permission to lose effects (hint: isn't one) and then you can dance around the RAW pole. Until then, I'm standing right by it while you're just wishing and watching.

Hover Strike doesn't say it becomes a Fast Skimmer, it just becomes a Skimmer. In addition, the wording in the Hover Strike special rule in WD #389 US "changes its type to Skimmer" would be the permission to not be a flyer.

Read the entry. it says The Storm Talon changes its type to Skimmer. Because it says it changes its type to skimmer means it ceases to be a flier and becomes a type: skimmer. Since that what changes to the type skimmer means.

It does not say it remains a flier.

It does not say it is a Skimmer and a flier.

It does say, the Storm Talon changes its type to Skimmer.

DE Elder wrote:
Read the entry. it says The Storm Talon changes its type to Skimmer. Because it says it changes its type to skimmer means it ceases to be a flier and becomes a type: skimmer. Since that what changes to the type skimmer means.

It does not say it remains a flier.

It does not say it is a Skimmer and a flier.

It does say, the Storm Talon changes its type to Skimmer.

Again (see my last post), who cares? Changing types does not cancel effects and it's the model, not the type, that must snap fire.

DE Elder wrote:The Storm Talon is no longer a flier, a requirement you need to evade, and a requirement you need to be to have to snap fire when you evade.

Which is why it can't go into Hover Strike mode at that time. You have to evade for a specific duration. If you are no longer a skimmer, you are no longer evading... so have broken the rule that says you evade for that specific duration.

So by RAW< you don't get the ignore the snap fire requirement... because you can't stop being an evading flier just because you want to.

@lubiak
The rule your looking for is page 81. where it says that FLIERS that evade have to fire snap shots. Fliers are not a movement type like you said, it is a unit type. The book is obvious in saying that FLIERS that evade must snap shot, not the model. So yes, I will be dancing around the RAW pole while you quote nothing to back up all of your claims. Read page 81. Read Evade. Read who evade applies to. It says fliers, not models. the Stormtalon is a flier when it chooses to evade. When it goes to Hover Strike Mode, it is no longer a flier but a skimmer.

You're so big on RAW and it being simple. Prove how simple it is using RAW.

@Insaniak

Where does it say that going to Hover Strike Mode is prevented if I evade?

DE Elder wrote:
@Insaniak

Where does it say that going to Hover Strike Mode is prevented if I evade?

SCP Yeeman wrote:Where does it say it cant stop being a flyer if it is evading?

insaniak wrote:It doesn't need to. Evade is a rule that applies specifically to Fliers. If it stops being a Flier, it therefore can't be still Evading... which it has to, until its next turn.

DE Elder wrote:
@lubiak
The rule your looking for is page 81. where it says that FLIERS that evade have to fire snap shots. Fliers are not a movement type like you said, it is a unit type. The book is obvious in saying that FLIERS that evade must snap shot, not the model. So yes, I will be dancing around the RAW pole while you quote nothing to back up all of your claims. Read page 81. Read Evade. Read who evade applies to. It says fliers, not models. the Stormtalon is a flier when it chooses to evade. When it goes to Hover Strike Mode, it is no longer a flier but a skimmer.

You're so big on RAW and it being simple. Prove how simple it is using RAW.

@Insaniak

Where does it say that going to Hover Strike Mode is prevented if I evade?

To be clear, you're looking at a 5th edition data sheet which shows the StormTalon is a vehicle with the fast and skimmer type. In 6th edition that was changed, as per the BRB, to a Flyer and a flyer only.

You need permission to lose effects. You either can't make the change to lose the effect (like Insaniak has stated), which I see, but disagree with, or you just can't lose the effect. There is absolutely no rule that I can find that allows one to ignore effects due to changing types (permissive ruleset and all).

That unit is still that unit. Its suffers its damage, it suffers its effects. I'm curious, do you think a talon in hover strike can no longer skyfire? Do you think that StormTalon the Skimmer loses the damage given to StormTalon the Flyer? The Flier on page 81 is referring to the unit and the model. The zooming flier is referring to movement effects.

There's a reason the bold type reads "an evading flyer has the jink special rule, but only snap fires next turn" not "an evading zooming flyer has the jink special rule.." One would refer to a model, the other its movement type. You MUST find a rule that allows you to ignore effects for what you so desperately want to happen. Until then, its either got to be that you simply can't hover strike, or that you must still snap fire.

BTW: Its clear you want it to be one way and won't hear any thing that anyone says against it. This makes me wonder why you even bothered to post here? However, if you insist on playing it under your house rule, to be consistent, you'll have to play that a StormTalon in HoverStrike can't skyfire and can't be moved under (since apparently no flyer rules now apply).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a slightly related side note: does anyone have the iPad Codex. I'm curious what differences (if any) it has to the WD in regards to the Stormtalon.

DE Elder wrote:
Where does it say that going to Hover Strike Mode is prevented if I evade?

If you perform a hover strike, are you still evading?

I present one question to those that believe its no longer a Flyer.


How does it go back to being a Flyer in the next movement phase without maintaining its hold to the Flyer type? Or is the model stuck in Hover mode for the rest of the game?

Xzerios wrote:
How does it go back to being a Flyer in the next movement phase without maintaining its hold to the Flyer type?

The Hover Strike rule says that it becomes a skimmer for a specific period of time. After that, you stop applying the Hover Strike rule, in which case the vehicle is no longer a skimmer.

Or is the model stuck in Hover mode for the rest of the game?

It's never in Hover mode to begin with.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are confusing (because it is so similar) Hover and Hover Strike

Hover Strike makes the vehicle stay still and change type to Skimmer. So there is argument that it cannot be required to snap fire as it is not a flyer type any longer

However as Insaniak (I think) pointed out more than once - you HAVE to evade for a full game turn, meaning you cannot choose to break this rule as you have no permission to break Evade to go into Hover Strike

I disagree that you can't Hover Strike the next turn. I do agree, however, that you would gain no benefit from doing so.

Evade is a special ability granted to Zooming Flyers. It has two effects: 1.) You gain Jink until the end of your next turn. 2.) You must fire snapshots until the end of your next turn.

Hover / Hover Strike are specific abilities that are used in the controlling player's turn that changes the model's behavior through specific permission to do so and nothing in the current ruleset specifies otherwise. When Evade was used, you were a Zooming Flyer. You used the special ability granted to you at the time and gained the effects which last for a specific duration. There is nothing that suggests that those effects either disappear or override other rules in the game other than: gaining jink, must fire snapshots.

So, go ahead and hover / hover strike after evading, you'll become a skimmer (note Hover Strike specifies Skimmer, not Fast Skimmer, not that it specifically matters in this case), be easier to hit, can be assaulted, and still have to fire snapshots.

So let me see if I am following this correctly:
No BS1
The model is no longer a Flyer and thus the penalty for snap fireing no longer applies as the evade (penalty) only affects Fliers

Yes BS1
The Model WAS a flier at the time it took the penalty (BS1 Drop) and is still subject to it regardless of type for the time presented in the BRB (untill its next shooting phase).

My opinion
I think the No BS1 Crowd may have a leg to stand on on this one. Although I would LIKE GW to FAQ that one into the YES BS1 crowds favor as it just makes more sence and doesnt seem as "gamey" (yes you are being gamey ). In the original posters senario I am sure it was game turning and cost his buddy a game however, in a normal situation (say turn 3 or 4) Droping down into Hover Strike in order to get a few more shots off may prove to be detramental to the Storm Talon. If they hit you once with 6's they will probably hit you AGAIN at full BS.

Id let the person do this. Cause when my turn comes, that things gettin' glassed.>:3

This is like arguing that a psyker who's gone to ground can use GoI as it's a psionic power rather than a 'move, run or assault'

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
This is like arguing that a psyker who's gone to ground can use GoI as it's a psionic power rather than a 'move, run or assault'

Andrew

He can, but thats not even close to whats being argued here.

I think Elder and Lobukia bring up solid points.

Lobukia, I would honestly have to say no, that a Storm Talon could not Skyfire at a flier because for one it doesn't have that rule as it would be a skimmer in Hover Strike. By damage, do you mean Stun/Shaken? If so, then no it wouldn't lose that damage. That effects the vehicle. The Storm Talon is still a vehicle, it doesn't lose that status.

I think te big argument here is, when a Storm Talon goes to Hover Strike, does it stay a Flier or change its type to skimmer entirely, or is it a skimmer/flier?

If it is a flier/skimmer, it would still be evading the next turn and have to Snap Shot.

If it changes it type to skimmer and only skimmer, than I would say no it does not have to Snap Shot the following turn it has to evade. I realize that Evade says until the following turn, but it is restricted to fliers. it doesn't say the vehicle, it doesn't say the unit, it says the flier, whether its zooming or not.

Next, I do not see a rule that prevents the Storm Talon from going to Hover Strike mode if it evaded. There is no restriction under Evade, Hover Strike, or the Sotrm Talon/Flier ruleset. I understand the argument that you have to keep evading for the following turn. But, what stops me from being able to go to Hover Strike? What rule is it that does it exactly? If I can't go to Hover Strike because I Evaded, then I remain a flier and have to Snap Shot. If I can go to Hover Strike, then I am able to regualrly fire because my unit type has changed to skimmer and I am no longer a flier.

Insaniak, in defense of Elder I would say no you are not evading still because skimmers cannot Evade. I am under the impression that Storm Talon changes its unit type fully from Flier to Skimmer. Skimmer cannot Evade, therefore while in Hover Strike, the Storm Talon is no longer Evading.

I guess I just don't see how the Storm Talon is effected by an ability that only effects a vehicle type he no longer is. i understand the arguement, I really do. But, I don't know what restricts the Storm Talon from going to Hover Strike the following turn. If someone says nothing, then I don't see how a skimmer is effected by Evade when Evade only effects fliers.

I agree with nosferatu.

Enemy shoots at the Stormtalon and hits. The Stormtalon "can choose to Evade until the end of [its] next turn" (page 81). On its turn, it cannot perform a Hover Strike because it will break the Evade rule.

Just like you cannot have the passengers shoot their guns, then, have the transport pop smoke. You promised you will not pop smoke or flat out when you choose to shoot the passenger's gun.

oK peeps.

Page 411 under storm talon Type its a flier and flier only. The effect that was placed on this model due to evading lasts till the end of the next turn. When you going to change to hover mode your treated as a fast skimmer. You dont loose the evade restriction when you swap over. Thats gaming the systems to get the best of both worlds. Period.

Leohart, I have a question. If you are in an open top transport like a Raider, can the passengers shoot then Flat Out with the vehicle?

Lung Pickle, please read your rules. It does not go to Hover Mode, it goes to a special Hover Strike Mode.

Hover Strike is not Hover Mode. Big difference. Hover Strike says that it changes its type to Skimmer. Hover does not say this. if it had Hover Mode, it would not lose flier status and there would not be an argument as it remains a flier. Hover Strike says it changes its type to skimmer.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
Leohart, I have a question. If you are in an open top transport like a Raider, can the passengers shoot then Flat Out with the vehicle?

No. The order you declare actions doesn't matter - if your passengers shoot you cannot flat out as that would be an illegal action.

@SCP Yeeman: Of course not. You cannot have the passenger shoots and then Flat Out. There are certain actions that puts a restriction on what you can do in the future.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
Next, I do not see a rule that prevents the Storm Talon from going to Hover Strike mode if it evaded. There is no restriction under Evade, Hover Strike, or the Sotrm Talon/Flier ruleset. I understand the argument that you have to keep evading for the following turn. But, what stops me from being able to go to Hover Strike?

What stops you is the rule that says you evade until the end of your next turn. If you choose to become a skimmer, then you are no longer evading, as you said yourself here:

Insaniak, in defense of Elder I would say no you are not evading still because skimmers cannot Evade. I am under the impression that Storm Talon changes its unit type fully from Flier to Skimmer. Skimmer cannot Evade, therefore while in Hover Strike, the Storm Talon is no longer Evading.

So if you opt to perform a Hover Strike while evading, you are no longer evading, and have therefore broken the rule that says that you evade until the end of your next turn.

You can not take a voluntary action that results in you no longer evading, because by choosing to evade, you are choosing an action that affects you for a specific duration. No rule is given that allows you to change that duration.

Fragile wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
This is like arguing that a psyker who's gone to ground can use GoI as it's a psionic power rather than a 'move, run or assault'

Andrew

He can, but thats not even close to whats being argued here.

Sorry missed a part, and then say that he can shoot because he's no longer GtG by virtue of changing location.

Andrew

jms40k wrote:
Evade is a special ability granted to Zooming Flyers. It has two effects: 1.) You gain Jink until the end of your next turn. 2.) You must fire snapshots until the end of your next turn.

More precisely, you evade until the end of your next turn, and while evading gain Jink and can fire Snap Shots only. The effect being applied until the end of the next turn is Evade, not Jink or Snap Shot... those latter two just come along with Evade.

 insaniak wrote:

jms40k wrote:
Evade is a special ability granted to Zooming Flyers. It has two effects: 1.) You gain Jink until the end of your next turn. 2.) You must fire snapshots until the end of your next turn.

More precisely, you evade until the end of your next turn, and while evading gain Jink and can fire Snap Shots only. The effect being applied until the end of the next turn is Evade, not Jink or Snap Shot... those latter two just come along with Evade.

Actually, the rules specifically say that while "evading" you have the Jink USR and can only fire snap shots. You gain these effects by choosing to evade.

That's what I just said...

Its pretty clear that the word "flier" in this context refers to the model, not the unit type. So your friend was in the wrong.

So you are saying FLIER was a Pro Noun for "THE MODEL"? I can agree with that. Other people however......

I agree with insaniak. You can't hover strike after declaring that you are evading.
So technically the person couldn't have hover struck anyway

It simply boils down to your friend and some people here are splitting hairs to break and effect that should last for one full turn. The rule stays until after the next shooting phase.

Your friend was ruled against correctly despite what you may read here to the contrary. The only thing solid that comes from here most the time is wrong interpretations, that FAQ's have shown to be incorrect. When and if this is faq'ed you will see they ruled it correctly.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I agree with insaniak. You can't hover strike after declaring that you are evading.
So technically the person couldn't have hover struck anyway

Well, I don't agree. I believe somewhere in the FAQs in regards to snap fire that regardless of modifiers to base BS, snap fire shots are "counted as BS 1". So the flyer can choose to evade with the effects of gaining the jink rule and having to snap fire untill end of the next turn. There is nothing saying the flyers actions are restricted outside of those two conditions. So if the model does hover strike, it still has the jink rule, fires as BS 1, counting as pinning and any of the other effects that go with hover strike.

If the flyer enters Hover Strike it is now a skimmer, not a flyer, and so rules that apply to flyers can't apply to it...

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I agree with insaniak. You can't hover strike after declaring that you are evading.
So technically the person couldn't have hover struck anyway

Well, I don't agree. I believe somewhere in the FAQs in regards to snap fire that regardless of modifiers to base BS, snap fire shots are "counted as BS 1". So the flyer can choose to evade with the effects of gaining the jink rule and having to snap fire untill end of the next turn. There is nothing saying the flyers actions are restricted outside of those two conditions. So if the model does hover strike, it still has the jink rule, fires as BS 1, counting as pinning and any of the other effects that go with hover strike.

Unless there's a FAQ I don't see it that way at all.

You have to be zooming to Evade. Evade lasts until the end of your next turn.

 insaniak wrote:
If the flyer enters Hover Strike it is now a skimmer, not a flyer, and so rules that apply to flyers can't apply to it...

But it was a flyer when the rule was first applied. It was even a flyer at the start of the turn in which it chooses to enter a hover strike. Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I agree with insaniak. You can't hover strike after declaring that you are evading.
So technically the person couldn't have hover struck anyway

Well, I don't agree. I believe somewhere in the FAQs in regards to snap fire that regardless of modifiers to base BS, snap fire shots are "counted as BS 1". So the flyer can choose to evade with the effects of gaining the jink rule and having to snap fire untill end of the next turn. There is nothing saying the flyers actions are restricted outside of those two conditions. So if the model does hover strike, it still has the jink rule, fires as BS 1, counting as pinning and any of the other effects that go with hover strike.

Unless there's a FAQ I don't see it that way at all.

You have to be zooming to Evade. Evade lasts until the end of your next turn.

Right, you must be zooming to evade. Evade lasts untill The end of the next turn. Nothing says, you must zoom in the next turn, only that you get the jink rule, and snap fire.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Nothing says, you must zoom in the next turn,...

This does:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Right, you must be zooming to evade. Evade lasts untill The end of the next turn.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

No, can no longer be applied to it. A zooming flyer can evade. You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

No, can no longer be applied to it. A zooming flyer can evade. You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

If you are evading you have to be zooming. It's spelled out clear in the rules of how you may evade.

So the next turn, you have to continue zooming. otherwise you've broken the "evade" rule

The rule does not say a zooming evading flyer, it says evading flyer. Having zoomed is a condition of getting to evade. But the word zoom is not in the bold portion of the text. No where does it say you have to continue zooming. It only says a zooming flyer, after it has been shot at, but before penetration rolls can chose to evade. You can't even chose to evade on your own turn, it is a reaction. Like overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

No, can no longer be applied to it. A zooming flyer can evade. You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

If you are evading you have to be zooming. It's spelled out clear in the rules of how you may evade.

So the next turn, you have to continue zooming. otherwise you've broken the "evade" rule

Not broken. Cause and effect.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

Evade only affects flyers. So yes, you have to be a flyer in order to be evading.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
The rule does not say a zooming evading flyer, it says evading flyer. Having zoomed is a condition of getting to evade. But the word zoom is not in the bold portion of the text. No where does it say you have to continue zooming. It only says a zooming flyer, after it has been shot at, but before penetration rolls can chose to evade. You can't even chose to evade on your own turn, it is a reaction. Like overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

No, can no longer be applied to it. A zooming flyer can evade. You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

If you are evading you have to be zooming. It's spelled out clear in the rules of how you may evade.

So the next turn, you have to continue zooming. otherwise you've broken the "evade" rule

Not broken. Cause and effect.

Not cause and effect, not at all.

Zooming flyers may choose to evade.
go look and see if a non zooming flyer has that option. (nope)
Logically if evading you must be zooming, so if you evade you must continue to zoom next turn.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Nothing says, you must zoom in the next turn,...

This does:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Right, you must be zooming to evade. Evade lasts untill The end of the next turn.

Look at it this way.
Evade has an effect untill the end of the next turn. That effect is jink and snap fire.

or look at it this way,

must be zooming to evade.

Evade lasts until the end of your next turn

My turn

hmm I must be zooming to evade, I'm evading so I must continue to zoom.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Look at it this way.
Evade has an effect untill the end of the next turn. That effect is jink and snap fire.

Sure... except that's not what the rule actually says. If the rule said that a Flyer that Evades gains Jink and must Snap Fire until the end of the next turn, you would have a point. But it doesn't... it says that the Flyer that evades does so until the end of the next turn, and while evading it gains those rules.

Evade is not an instant effect that has a result that lasts that long... it's a rule that is in effect for that period. And in order for it to be in effect, the subject has to be a flyer for that duration, because Evade only affects flyers.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
The rule does not say a zooming evading flyer, it says evading flyer. Having zoomed is a condition of getting to evade. But the word zoom is not in the bold portion of the text. No where does it say you have to continue zooming. It only says a zooming flyer, after it has been shot at, but before penetration rolls can chose to evade. You can't even chose to evade on your own turn, it is a reaction. Like overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Evade lasts untill the end of the turn, so it is still in effect even though it is no longer a flyer.
Makes as much sense as your interpretation, and plays well.

That doesn't make sense at all. If the subject is no longer a flyer, then a rule that applies only to flyers can no longer affect it.

No, can no longer be applied to it. A zooming flyer can evade. You don't have to be zooming for the effect to follow you in the next turn, and I don't think you need to be a flyer for it to follow you either.

If you are evading you have to be zooming. It's spelled out clear in the rules of how you may evade.

So the next turn, you have to continue zooming. otherwise you've broken the "evade" rule

Not broken. Cause and effect.

Not cause and effect, not at all.

Zooming flyers may choose to evade.
go look and see if a non zooming flyer has that option. (nope)
Logically if evading you must be zooming, so if you evade you must continue to zoom next turn.

Logically that is a conditional statement we are trying to find the truth of. I believe if it was true the rule book would say an evading flyer must continue to zoom, gain jink and must snapefire. It does not. Once you have chosen to evade, the following effect takes place. "an evading flyer has the jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." two conditions must be met to choose to evade. 1 flyer. 2. Zooming. The effect (evading) lasts until the end of the next turn. If the flyer chose to hover in the next turn when it was shot at it could not choose to evade because it did not zoom.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
The effect (evading) lasts until the end of the next turn.

And that's where you're getting the disagreement. Evading is not an effect of evading.

It's not the effect that lasts the turn. It's the status of the flyer as currently evading.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Look at it this way.
Evade has an effect untill the end of the next turn. That effect is jink and snap fire.

Sure... except that's not what the rule actually says.

Arggg darn iPad!

Really? Because that is the bold print part in both my books, as a sentence. The whole paragraph is set up as a conditional statement. I see your logic. But in the context of the paragraph, I think the point of how it is suposed to play is the bolded part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
The effect (evading) lasts until the end of the next turn.

And that's where you're getting the disagreement. Evading is not an effect of evading.

It's not the effect that lasts the turn. It's the status of the flyer as currently evading.

Ok, sure, the status is evading. No where does it say the status=zoom.
That is the logic of Americans speak English. English speakers are American.
And we all know us Americans do not speak English



Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about we agree this needs a FAQ?
The hover strike rule does cause a conflict.
And if a FAQ ever comes out in my favor you change your I fought the RAW to RAI wins

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Really? Because that is the bold print part in both my books, as a sentence.

The point is that while the Flyer gains Jink and Snap Fire as a result of evading, Evading is a condition that lasts for a specific duration. The flyer has those extra rules while it is evading. And because only Flyers can evade, if it stops being a Flyer, it can't be still evading.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Really? Because that is the bold print part in both my books, as a sentence.

The point is that while the Flyer gains Jink and Snap Fire as a result of evading, Evading is a condition that lasts for a specific duration. The flyer has those extra rules while it is evading. And because only Flyers can evade, if it stops being a Flyer, it can't be still evading.

Do you agree that an evading flyer can go from zooming to hovering and still be evading?

I was planning to stay out of this one but, Insurgency brings up a valid point. This reads to me as an identical situation with passengers getting shaken (not stirred).

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Do you agree that an evading flyer can go from zooming to hovering and still be evading?

I thought I was being quite clear that I don't.

Evading lasts for a specific duration.
A hovering flyer is treated as a skimmer, not a flyer.
Only flyers can evade.
If the flyer is now a skimmer it therefore can not still be evading.
If it stops evading before the end of the set duration, it has broken the rule that says that evading lasts for that duration.

Therefore, an evading flyer can not choose to hover.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Do you agree that an evading flyer can go from zooming to hovering and still be evading?

I thought I was being quite clear that I don't.

Evading lasts for a specific duration.
A hovering flyer is treated as a skimmer, not a flyer.
Only flyers can evade.
If the flyer is now a skimmer it therefore can not still be evading.
If it stops evading before the end of the set duration, it has broken the rule that says that evading lasts for that duration.

Therefore, an evading flyer can not choose to hover.

Similar situation, using your logic insaniak. Please note I'm not taking a side here, I think both sides have merit, just my two cents.

Stunned/Shaken effects on passengers lasts for a specific duration.
A unit that disembarks are no longer passengers.
Only passengers are affected.
If the unit is now no longer passengers it therefore can not still be shaken/stunned.
If it stops being shaken/stunned before the end of the set duration, it has broken the rule that says that shaken/stunned lasts for that duration.

Therefore, an shaken/stunned unit can not choose to disembark.

And yes I am aware that GW said they are still affected if they disembark (as I argued for in the original thread).

 insaniak wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Do you agree that an evading flyer can go from zooming to hovering and still be evading?

I thought I was being quite clear that I don't.

Evading lasts for a specific duration.
A hovering flyer is treated as a skimmer, not a flyer.
Only flyers can evade.
If the flyer is now a skimmer it therefore can not still be evading.
If it stops evading before the end of the set duration, it has broken the rule that says that evading lasts for that duration.

Therefore, an evading flyer can not choose to hover.

I do no disagree with your argument as such.
It merely feels convoluted, even for GW, to assume that we come to this conclusion.

I know that I will have trouble convincing my gaming-group of this simply due to this "feel".

I personally hope for an FAQ in the near future (hey, one can hope, right ), and would feel just fine whatever that FAQ says.


...

Personally if you get rid of the whole "its no longer a flyer argument" the rule becomes pretty simple.

Happyjew wrote:Stunned/Shaken effects on passengers lasts for a specific duration.

Nope. The difference is in the wording of how the two rules are applied.

Evade lasts for a specific duration, and while evading the flyer has other effects applied. So the flyer has to be evading for those effects to apply.

Stunned and Shaken don't apply to passengers for a specific duration... they are instant effects: Passengers in a stunned vehicle can not shoot in their next shooting phase. For the effect to be the same as the evasion issue, the damage chart would need to say that while the vehicle is stunned passengers can not shoot.

Fragile wrote:Personally if you get rid of the whole "its no longer a flyer argument" the rule becomes pretty simple.

The FAQ ruling on hovering flyers using skyfire suggests that we can't do that...

Is there any rule like evade to use as a precident?

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Is there any rule like evade to use as a precident?

The closest I can come up with is Gone to Ground. A unit that chooses to GtG gets a cover save (like jink) and stays that way until the end of the next controlling player's turn. Unless a rule specifically tells us it breaks GtG (like failing a morale check, the unit breaks and is no longer afflicted by GtG), we cannot leave being GtG until the end of the next controlling player's turn.

The exact rules text is "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." (40k 6th edition rulebook, page 81)

This does not preclude the Stormtalon from using its Hover Strike ability in its next turn, at which point it changes its type to Skimmer until the start of its next movement phase. (WD 389, page 66)

When the Stormtalon is a skimmer, it is no longer a Flyer, though it is still evading. Nothing about this status change makes the Stormtalon stop evading. However, the effects of evading do not apply to it, as the evade rule specifically indicates that only an evading Flyer gains Jink and fires Snap Shots.

Therefore, a Stormtalon (if in Zoom mode) can Evade when fired upon, then use Hover Strike on its own turn to become a skimmer. When a skimmer, it loses the Jink rule provided by Evading and is no longer forced to snap fire, as it is no longer an evading Flyer but rather an evading Skimmer, and the Evade rule has no effect on skimmers. This means that it may fire at normal BS, with the modifiers from Hover Strike applied if appropriate.

However, note that since a Stormtalon using the Hover Strike ability is no longer a Flyer, it cannot choose to use the Skyfire special rule in its shooting phase, nor may it choose to Evade if fired upon in the turn after it performed a Hover Strike. These options are only available to Flyers, and a Stormtalon using the Hover Strike ability becomes a Skimmer, not a Flyer.

Couldnt have said it better myself Kingsley, though I have said the exact same things multiple times in this thread.

Glad to have another person agree.

 insaniak wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Stunned/Shaken effects on passengers lasts for a specific duration.

Nope. The difference is in the wording of how the two rules are applied.

Evade lasts for a specific duration, and while evading the flyer has other effects applied. So the flyer has to be evading for those effects to apply.

Stunned and Shaken don't apply to passengers for a specific duration... they are instant effects: Passengers in a stunned vehicle can not shoot in their next shooting phase. For the effect to be the same as the evasion issue, the damage chart would need to say that while the vehicle is stunned passengers can not shoot.

Fragile wrote:Personally if you get rid of the whole "its no longer a flyer argument" the rule becomes pretty simple.

The FAQ ruling on hovering flyers using skyfire suggests that we can't do that...

I don't read the FAQ that way. The FAQ does not say it is not a flyer.
The rule on flyers with the hover type (from page 81) state it must choose how it moves before it moves each movement phase. It also says a hovering flyer is treated exactly as a fast skimmer. The FAQ does not say it Is a fast skimmer, or that it stoped being a flyer. Only the stormtalons hover strike rule breaks the evade rule, because the storm talon is not a flyer with the hover type.

I think if the evading flyer was not allowed to move in hover mode it would have said, "must continue to zoom", somewhere in the rule??
Or page 81 would say " a flyer with hover mode must choose at the beginning of each turn if it is a flyer, or a fast skimmer"?!?
I had a moment of doubt insaniak, you almost got me. But the more I look at the flyer FAQ, the more I think a flyer is always a flyer,(except when it is a hover striking storm guppy).

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
I don't read the FAQ that way. The FAQ does not say it is not a flyer.

No, but the fact that it can no longer Skyfire suggests that for that period it is not treated as one.

The concept that you cannot go into Hover Mode or perform a Hover Strike after Evading is absurd and unsupported by the rules. While you have to be Zooming to begin Evading, nowhere in the rulebook does anything indicate that Evading forces you to continue Zooming. Since your other options are still available as per their appropriate rules sections in the BRB (for Flyers with Hover Mode) or White Dwarf 389 (for the Stormtalon's Hover Strike), you can certainly use them after Evading-- nothing about these rules indicates that Evading restricts your choice of whether or not to use them.

I see some posts using the old WD article with the Stormtalon rules as justification to be able to avoid the effects of Evade. The 6th edition BRB pretty much overrides that article. Page 81 in the BRB is pretty clear on this, the "Hover 'Type'" box states, in big bold letters, "If a Flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer."

Notice it doesn't say the flyer BECOMES a Fast Skimmer, just TREATED as a Fast Skimmer. It also doesn't say that the model is no longer a Flyer. It even says, "If a Flyer is hovering..." which, as far as the English language goes, means a hovering Flyer is STILL a Flyer, its just hovering.

So the Stormtalon remains a Flyer, and it still has to deal with the effects of Evade.

 Kingsley wrote:
The concept that you cannot go into Hover Mode or perform a Hover Strike after Evading is absurd and unsupported by the rules. While you have to be Zooming to begin Evading, nowhere in the rulebook does anything indicate that Evading forces you to continue Zooming. Since your other options are still available as per their appropriate rules sections in the BRB (for Flyers with Hover Mode) or White Dwarf 389 (for the Stormtalon's Hover Strike), you can certainly use them after Evading-- nothing about these rules indicates that Evading restricts your choice of whether or not to use them.

Except as they have pointed out, you must be zooming to claim to evade. Evade last until the end of the next controlling player's turn. Ergo if you choose to evade on your opponents turn you are still evading on your own turn, and as such must continue to move at a speed appropriate to maintain the Evade, which in this case is zooming. Some of the Highlights to the Evade rule to think about, If a zooming flyer comes under fire.... can choose to evade until the end of your next turn.... and of course the whole last sentence. Those lines are not taken out of context as the context only talks about when the evade rolls are declared.

In the case of the storm talon choosing to use Hover Strike you will be unable to, as you are no longer a flyer at that point, and you must finish out the effects of Evade before you are allowed to change out the flyer type unless another rule specifically overrides that. Claiming that the status cannot roll over onto another turn is like claiming Shaken/Stunned don't carry over past the opponents turn, once we chose a course of action (or receive the damage result) we are bound by that course of action until the rules say otherwise.

ClassicCarraway wrote:
I see some posts using the old WD article with the Stormtalon rules as justification to be able to avoid the effects of Evade. The 6th edition BRB pretty much overrides that article. Page 81 in the BRB is pretty clear on this, the "Hover 'Type'" box states, in big bold letters, "If a Flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer."

Notice it doesn't say the flyer BECOMES a Fast Skimmer, just TREATED as a Fast Skimmer. It also doesn't say that the model is no longer a Flyer. It even says, "If a Flyer is hovering..." which, as far as the English language goes, means a hovering Flyer is STILL a Flyer, its just hovering.

So the Stormtalon remains a Flyer, and it still has to deal with the effects of Evade.

Stormtalons don't have the Hover type. They have the Hover Strike rule, which actually changes their type to Skimmer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:
Except as they have pointed out, you must be zooming to claim to evade. Evade last until the end of the next controlling player's turn. Ergo if you choose to evade on your opponents turn you are still evading on your own turn, and as such must continue to move at a speed appropriate to maintain the Evade, which in this case is zooming. Some of the Highlights to the Evade rule to think about, If a zooming flyer comes under fire.... can choose to evade until the end of your next turn.... and of course the whole last sentence. Those lines are not taken out of context as the context only talks about when the evade rolls are declared.

Just because you need to be Zooming to begin Evading does not mean that you have to remain Zooming while Evading. The idea that "you must continue to move at a speed appropriate to maintain the evade" is made up out of whole cloth and unsupported by any rule anywhere.

ClassicCarraway wrote:
I see some posts using the old WD article with the Stormtalon rules as justification to be able to avoid the effects of Evade. The 6th edition BRB pretty much overrides that article. Page 81 in the BRB is pretty clear on this, the "Hover 'Type'" box states, in big bold letters, "If a Flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer."

Notice it doesn't say the flyer BECOMES a Fast Skimmer, just TREATED as a Fast Skimmer. It also doesn't say that the model is no longer a Flyer. It even says, "If a Flyer is hovering..." which, as far as the English language goes, means a hovering Flyer is STILL a Flyer, its just hovering.

So the Stormtalon remains a Flyer, and it still has to deal with the effects of Evade.

The storm talon does not have Hover though, it has its own Hover Strike rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:
Just because you need to be Zooming to begin Evading does not mean that you have to remain Zooming while Evading. The idea that "you must continue to move at a speed appropriate to maintain the evade" is made up out of whole cloth and unsupported by any rule anywhere.

Except that only a zooming flyer can evade. Read the first highlight from the rules section I posted, if a zooming flyer comes under fire. That means you had to have been zooming to activate Evade, and therefore Evade is contingent upon the speed of the flyer.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Just because you need to be Zooming to begin Evading does not mean that you have to remain Zooming while Evading. The idea that "you must continue to move at a speed appropriate to maintain the evade" is made up out of whole cloth and unsupported by any rule anywhere.

Except that only a zooming flyer can evade. Read the first highlight from the rules section I posted, if a zooming flyer comes under fire. That means you had to have been zooming to activate Evade, and therefore Evade is contingent upon the speed of the flyer.

You must be Zooming to activate Evade. Nobody disagrees with this. However, once Evade is activated, there is no rule that mandates that a Flyer continue to Zoom. Further, even if there were such a rule, a Stormtalon would not be affected by it, as when it uses its special Hover Strike ability it is no longer a flyer but rather a Skimmer and is no longer affected by rules that apply to Flyers. In some cases, this provides an advantage-- as with Evading and then firing at full ballistic skill-- and in some cases, this provides a disadvantage-- as with being unable to Skyfire. You have to take the good with the bad.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:


The storm talon does not have Hover though, it has its own Hover Strike rule.

You did notice that the word "Type" is actually in separate quotations from the word "Hover" in the BRB? That would mean that Hover Strike, Hover Attack, Hover Whatever is subject to this rule. All Hover rules for flyers previously published are covered by this.

ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:


The storm talon does not have Hover though, it has its own Hover Strike rule.

You did notice that the word "Type" is actually in separate quotations from the word "Hover" in the BRB? That would mean that Hover Strike, Hover Attack, Hover Whatever is subject to this rule. All Hover rules for flyers previously published are covered by this.

The word 'Type' is in separate quotations because it is a subtype. All rules text for the Hover ability clearly specifies that it applies to the Hover type rather than the Space Marine Stormtalon's Hover Strike special ability.

ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:


The storm talon does not have Hover though, it has its own Hover Strike rule.

You did notice that the word "Type" is actually in separate quotations from the word "Hover" in the BRB? That would mean that Hover Strike, Hover Attack, Hover Whatever is subject to this rule. All Hover rules for flyers previously published are covered by this.

Look in the appendices in the back, see the storm talon there? Notice it's not a hover type flyer? We can now move on since it's a flyer, not a Flyer (hover) that has the ability to move with its hover. It has its own unique rule called hover strike, it does not have the hover type.


Yes, you must be zooming to activate, and that means in order to claim the jink save on a flyer you must be at zooming. Since you are evading until the end of your following turn, that means you must adhere to the rules of evading until the end. And one of the rules for evading is that you must be at zooming speed, thus if you choose (remember, Evade is entirely voluntary to start, the choice to be stuck at zooming speed is a choice the person using the vehicle makes thus must live with) to evade you have to carry out the rules for it. And Evade lasts until the end of your next turn. You have to be zooming to use evade (we've shown those rules), and zooming is a part of evade because only a zooming flyer can evade. If you choose to evade you have to live with the restriction that Evade can only be done with a zooming flyer, and you must maintain zooming until the end of the next turn because Evade tells us that's how long it lasts and in order for Evade to be a viable form of defense (since we are told it continues beyond that turn we have to keep it viable) you have to maintain zooming because Evade does not happen if you are not zooming.

I dont see the problem.. If you choose to evade you commit to doing so until the end of your next turn. You can only evade if you are a flyer (page 81 BRB) so that would mean that in the case of the stormtalon it cannot switch to hover strike because it would change it's type to skimmer which means it wouldn't be able to evade anymore (which it must still do due to having opted to do so last turn). For regular flyers who have the hover mode it wouldn't be a problem to switch to hover mode because it is simply treated as a fast skimmer but remains to be a flyer (thus keeping the snap fire restrictions).

I'd say that means the storm talon couldn't switch to hover strike because it is committed to be evading which it can only do as a flyer.

Just my two cents

 Lone Dragoon wrote:
And one of the rules for evading is that you must be at zooming speed

This is a rule that you have invented. You have to be Zooming to BEGIN Evading. Nowhere in the rulebook does it state that you must remain Zooming while doing so.

Except where it says the process of evading lasts a complete turn, and does not allow you to alter this. You have to be zooming to maintain evade, as you have no permission to breakthe evade rule

My argument is a little off topic, because the OP was talking about the Storm Talon. This is about flyers with hover.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have to be zooming to maintain evade, as you have no permission to breakthe evade rule

There is no evidence to support this. Zooming is part of evade. Zooming is not the whole of evade. The rule is not broken by hover. When they wrote the rule for evade they knew that some flyers had the ability to move in hover mode. Look at the rule for leaving combat airspace on page 81 of the BRB. Notice how it says when ariving from Ongoing Reserves must zoom on to the board? That is an example of a restriction to a rule. When the rule system wants to restrict something, it is spelled out.
Look at the locked velocity result. If your velocity is locked you can't evade. When they want to restrict something they do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except where it says the process of evading lasts a complete turn, and does not allow you to alter this. You have to be zooming to maintain evade, as you have no permission to breakthe evade rule

Please post a rules citation that explains how switching to Hover Mode (for a normal Flyer) or performing a Hover Strike (for a Stormtalon) breaks the Evade rule in any way. You must be Zooming to begin evading, but there is no rule that states you must remain in Zoom Mode for the duration of the evasion process.

 Kingsley wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except where it says the process of evading lasts a complete turn, and does not allow you to alter this. You have to be zooming to maintain evade, as you have no permission to breakthe evade rule

Please post a rules citation that explains how switching to Hover Mode (for a normal Flyer) or performing a Hover Strike (for a Stormtalon) breaks the Evade rule in any way. You must be Zooming to begin evading, but there is no rule that states you must remain in Zoom Mode for the duration of the evasion process.

He did that a couple of pages ago.

Turn A.
Your flyer evades - so next turn you may only fire snap shots.
Turn B.
You can hover, hover strike, turn into a lemon, or whatever you like, but the effect of evade is that you may only fire snap shots this turn.
You're now a FMC? You may only fire snap shots.
You're a skimmer? You may only fire snap shots.

The only possible way there could be a conflict is if you turned into something that could not snap shot at all. Fortunately there is no such thing so simply - you may only fire snap shots the turn after you evade no matter what.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Turn A.
Your flyer evades - so next turn you may only fire snap shots.
Turn B.
You can hover, hover strike, turn into a lemon, or whatever you like, but the effect of evade is that you may only fire snap shots this turn.
You're now a FMC? You may only fire snap shots.
You're a skimmer? You may only fire snap shots.

The only possible way there could be a conflict is if you turned into something that could not snap shot at all. Fortunately there is no such thing so simply - you may only fire snap shots the turn after you evade no matter what.

This is spot-on. After reading through all of this thread, and rereading the sect in the BYB, WD, and FAQ, I have to say this guy got it right. Too many people get stuck on what they originally thought and absolutely refuse to change their opinion, even after many people point out the flaws in their arguments.

Anyone who reads what Dave wrote here and still thinks switching modes lets you ignore the ongoing effects on you, might as well just get some white-out and change the rules in their book to whatever makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Turn A.
Your flyer evades - so next turn you may only fire snap shots.
Turn B.
You can hover, hover strike, turn into a lemon, or whatever you like, but the effect of evade is that you may only fire snap shots this turn.
You're now a FMC? You may only fire snap shots.
You're a skimmer? You may only fire snap shots.

The only possible way there could be a conflict is if you turned into something that could not snap shot at all. Fortunately there is no such thing so simply - you may only fire snap shots the turn after you evade no matter what.

This sounds convincing but unfortunately isn't what the rules actually say. The Evade rule does not say that next turn you may only fire snap shots. The Evade rule says that an Evading Flyer may only fire snap shots. A Stormtalon that uses Hover Strike is no longer a Flyer, so is not affected by this rule.

What the rules say is that you can choose to evade until the end of your next turn. So either you evade untill the end of y our next turn or you don't evade at all. If you evade you still HAVE to evade next turn. Since the storm talon's hover strike changes it's type to skimmer (as opposed to flyers with a hover mode) that simply means it cannot change to hover mode since only flyers can evade. You MUST evade until the end of your next turn and the only way to do so is by zooming

This is simple, and you put it down in black and white. It says it changes its TYPE to SKIMMER. That means it's no longer a FLYER. Period. If a type is changed, then the unit no longer counts as the other unit. There is no ambiguity here at all. Its type changed. The TO was wrong.

 Kingsley wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except where it says the process of evading lasts a complete turn, and does not allow you to alter this. You have to be zooming to maintain evade, as you have no permission to breakthe evade rule

Please post a rules citation that explains how switching to Hover Mode (for a normal Flyer) or performing a Hover Strike (for a Stormtalon) breaks the Evade rule in any way. You must be Zooming to begin evading, but there is no rule that states you must remain in Zoom Mode for the duration of the evasion process.

Apart fromthe Evade rule itself, which requires you to be a zooming flyer. For the duration. If you try to switch modes you are no longer a zooming flyer, and have not evaded for the complete turn required, breaking the evade rule

Please post a rule allowing you to NOT evade for a full turn. Page and para

 Sirmauz wrote:
This is simple, and you put it down in black and white. It says it changes its TYPE to SKIMMER. That means it's no longer a FLYER. Period. If a type is changed, then the unit no longer counts as the other unit. There is no ambiguity here at all. Its type changed. The TO was wrong.

Not arguing that changing mode to hover would do that. That's why i'd say you can't switch to hover because you'd be breaking the evade rule. If you CAN switch that still doesn't absolve you from an effect you got while still a flyer. It doesn't make sense, RAW and Rai

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Turn A.
Your flyer evades - so next turn you may only fire snap shots.
Turn B.
You can hover, hover strike, turn into a lemon, or whatever you like, but the effect of evade is that you may only fire snap shots this turn.
You're now a FMC? You may only fire snap shots.
You're a skimmer? You may only fire snap shots.

The only possible way there could be a conflict is if you turned into something that could not snap shot at all. Fortunately there is no such thing so simply - you may only fire snap shots the turn after you evade no matter what.

This sounds convincing but unfortunately isn't what the rules actually say. The Evade rule does not say that next turn you may only fire snap shots. The Evade rule says that an Evading Flyer may only fire snap shots. A Stormtalon that uses Hover Strike is no longer a Flyer, so is not affected by this rule.

Wouldn't this apply now:

BRB FAQ v1a wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

It would seem that changing type or Flying Mode to Hover or using Hover Strike would have no effect on how to resolve Snap Shots.

40k-noob wrote:
It would seem that changing type or Flying Mode to Hover or using Hover Strike would have no effect on how to resolve Snap Shots.

The problem is, one side is claiming that by switching to hover mode they completely lose the flyer aspect, and thus are no longer evading. If they are no longer evading the need not make snap shots. In other words according to their side the FAQ part you quoted will not take effect as they aren't making a snap shot.

My thoughts on the discussion are this, with the evade rule we have to be zooming to initiate, which means we have to be zooming to evade since we have no rule that overrides the zooming portion. That I feel is the problem with the other side's argument, they haven't been able to adequately produce a rule refuting the zooming statement. Remember, with a permissive ruleset we need permission to do something. The permission is a zooming flyer can evade. Whether it is only to initiate the evade or maintain zoom, we don't know because the rules don't tell us, so we have to apply the rule that we need to be zooming to initiate evade to the entire evade process. The reason we apply this is it is a restriction to evade at one point (the start), and without clear rules telling us we may change the speed we move, we have to apply it. This is because once we choose (remember the entire thing is voluntary) to evade we have to wait until the end of the next turn to fire normally. Hover strike does not give clear and explicit rules that allow it to override evade.

If they stop becoming a Flyer, there is no rules to allow them to become a Flyer again. They become a Skimmer until the next Movement phase, well what happens then? They are no longer a Skimmer and since they lost Flyer to change into a Skimmer, what are they? The rule doesnt state to change type to Flyer again.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
It would seem that changing type or Flying Mode to Hover or using Hover Strike would have no effect on how to resolve Snap Shots.

The problem is, one side is claiming that by switching to hover mode they completely lose the flyer aspect, and thus are no longer evading. If they are no longer evading the need not make snap shots. In other words according to their side the FAQ part you quoted will not take effect as they aren't making a snap shot.

My thoughts on the discussion are this, with the evade rule we have to be zooming to initiate, which means we have to be zooming to evade since we have no rule that overrides the zooming portion. That I feel is the problem with the other side's argument, they haven't been able to adequately produce a rule refuting the zooming statement. Remember, with a permissive ruleset we need permission to do something. The permission is a zooming flyer can evade. Whether it is only to initiate the evade or maintain zoom, we don't know because the rules don't tell us, so we have to apply the rule that we need to be zooming to initiate evade to the entire evade process. The reason we apply this is it is a restriction to evade at one point (the start), and without clear rules telling us we may change the speed we move, we have to apply it. This is because once we choose (remember the entire thing is voluntary) to evade we have to wait until the end of the next turn to fire normally. Hover strike does not give clear and explicit rules that allow it to override evade.

I see.

It seems pretty clear to me.

Step 1: Enemy hit my Zooming Flyer
Step 2: I choose to Evade, I am now restricted to Snaps Shots for my next shooting Phase.
Step 3: My Movement Phase, I choose use the Special Rule to Hover[other Flyers] or Hover Strike[Stormtalon] (note Hover Strike means I cannot move thus negating any benefit of Jink)
Step 4: Shooting Phase, my Flyer is still shooting Snap Shot because FAQ v1a says that no Special Rule can modify the BS of my Flyer since it has been restricted to making Snap Shots.

Changing Flying Mode is allowed because of a Special Rule, that change can not remove or change the restriction that has been placed on the model by Evading in the previous enemy shooting phase.

Except the change is NOT allowed, because you are then not Evading for a full turn, as only a zooming flyer can be Evading.

You cannot choose to break a rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except the change is NOT allowed, because you are then not Evading for a full turn, as only a zooming flyer can be Evading.

You cannot choose to break a rule.

Actually you can change.

Hover Rule pg 81:
"A Flyer that has the Hover type can choose to Hover instead of Zooming. Hovering makes the Flyer slower, but considerably more agile."

Many point out that this game uses a permissive ruleset and well there you have it in black and white print.

A Flyer with Hover can CHOOSE.....

Unless the Evade special rule puts a specific restriction on this rule then this rule is still in effect. But even more importantly, who cares!!!

That model, Evading or not, can still only fire Snap Shots.


If anything I want my opponent to Hover or Hover Strike so I can decimate that model in my next shooting phase.

Nos I have a problem with your logic; let me give you an example:

I can choose to re-roll my run die if I have fleet.

However, Run does not give me permission to re-roll my Run die.

Therefore, in choosing to re-roll it, I have chosen to break the Run! rule.

It says in black and white that I may choose to do so, but because of your logic, I cannot choose to do so because I cannot choose to break a rule.

that is not my logic. Please dont make up arguments for me.

The logic is that you are given a defined period when you must be a zooming flyer. Choosing not to be a zooming flyer breaks this rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
that is not my logic. Please dont make up arguments for me.

The logic is that you are given a defined period when you must be a zooming flyer. Choosing not to be a zooming flyer breaks this rule.

But the Hover rule and the Hover Strike rule both allow you to change flying mode in the movement phase. They are explicitly given permission to make such a change.

A rule that grants you permission to do something should override an non explicit, implied rule that is no where in the BRB.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
that is not my logic. Please dont make up arguments for me.

The logic is that you are given a defined period when you must be a zooming flyer. Choosing not to be a zooming flyer breaks this rule.

While there is a defined period where you must be a zooming flyer, that period is "when you initially choose to Evade." Nothing about the Evade rule indicates you must remain zooming!

Since it's a permissive ruleset and the only one we know to be able to evade is a zooming flyer, switching to hover would prevent you from evading.

Come on guys, saying that by switching to hover you no longer can shoot snapfire only makes no sense at all. Not RAW and especially not RAI. If it doesn't say you CAN you just cant.

 Robbietobbie wrote:
Come on guys, saying that by switching to hover you no longer can shoot snapfire only makes no sense at all. Not RAW and especially not RAI. If it doesn't say you CAN you just cant.

The rules do say you can switch to Hover or use Hover Strike. They don't have an exception for evading. Now, a normal flyer that switches to Hover Mode after Evading still has to snap fire-- but Hover Strike turns you into a skimmer, so you don't.

I would give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and snapfire next round no matter what mode of travel I chose. It's an obvious penalty from gaining another benefit. Plus, it doesn't matter what BS a unit has if it may only snap fire next round.

40k-noob wrote:

But the Hover rule and the Hover Strike rule both allow you to change flying mode in the movement phase. They are explicitly given permission to make such a change.

A rule that grants you permission to do something should override an non explicit, implied rule that is no where in the BRB.

So do you believe that a unit in a land raider that moves on from the board edge, then disembarks should be allowed to assault? That's the same argument. You have permission to override zooming, but not permission to override evade. Just like a unit coming out of an assault vehicle has permission to assault after it disembarks, but not on the turn it comes in from reserve. You need to override two rules in this case, not just one. You are zooming and evading, not just zooming. When you guys can show us a rule that overrides the evading portion, then you're argument will have some merit and we can call for an FAQ together. As it stands you have to be zooming to evade (to initiate), and if you start zooming you must remain zooming until the period of time ends. That means you must meet all the criteria laid out to allow you to zoom, and since we had to be zooming to start the evade action, we have to maintain zooming during it.

 evildrspock wrote:
I would give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and snapfire next round no matter what mode of travel I chose. It's an obvious penalty from gaining another benefit. Plus, it doesn't matter what BS a unit has if it may only snap fire next round.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

But the Hover rule and the Hover Strike rule both allow you to change flying mode in the movement phase. They are explicitly given permission to make such a change.

A rule that grants you permission to do something should override an non explicit, implied rule that is no where in the BRB.

So do you believe that a unit in a land raider that moves on from the board edge, then disembarks should be allowed to assault? That's the same argument. You have permission to override zooming, but not permission to override evade. Just like a unit coming out of an assault vehicle has permission to assault after it disembarks, but not on the turn it comes in from reserve. You need to override two rules in this case, not just one. You are zooming and evading, not just zooming. When you guys can show us a rule that overrides the evading portion, then you're argument will have some merit and we can call for an FAQ together. As it stands you have to be zooming to evade (to initiate), and if you start zooming you must remain zooming until the period of time ends. That means you must meet all the criteria laid out to allow you to zoom, and since we had to be zooming to start the evade action, we have to maintain zooming during it.

Apples and Oranges.

"Q: Do Transports with the Assault Vehicle special rule permit their
passengers to charge on the turn they arrive from Reserve? (p33)
A: No."

That point you made might have had some merit had an FAQ already not been asked and answered.

As I have stated before, I have a RULE that lets me CHOOSE to Hover or Hover Strike in my Movement Phase. That is plain to see in the BRB and White Dwarf Magazine.

Show me your RULE where it says if I am Zooming I must remain Zooming.

40k-noob wrote:

"Q: Do Transports with the Assault Vehicle special rule permit their
passengers to charge on the turn they arrive from Reserve? (p33)
A: No."

That point you made might have had some merit had an FAQ already not been asked and answered.

I actually asked my question specifically because it was answered by GW. Your assertion was that Hover Strike overrode zooming and evading. I was making a point that making the claim you did is tantamount to making the claim that a Land Raider's Assault Vehicle rule overrode the arriving from reserves rule. There is one exception for Hover Strike, and that is zooming can be exchanged for the HS rule. No exception is made for a flyer that is evading. As for giving a rule, we have done so. If the other side doesn't feel as though the rule answers their question, that's their choice, but it has been explained over and again. In the game every time we do something that lasts for more than one turn (go to ground, pinning, units broken by a morale check, etc.) we cannot undo such a rule until we have a rule that overrides the first rule. Going to ground is lost if a morale check is failed, units broken by a failed morale check remain broken until they pass a regroup check. Those are two examples of specific rules overriding the general rules. Hover Strike overrides zooming, but it doesn't override the evade status until the next turn ends. Notice how the rules I pointed out tell us they ignore the status of previous rules? Hover strike does not do this, and in order to override the evade rule, it has to specify it does so.

The Stormtalon doesn't ignore the status of the Evade rule, however. The Evade rule still applies to it. Since a Storm Talon that uses Hover Strike is not a Flyer but rather a Skimmer, it becomes an Evading Skimmer rather than an Evading Flyer. Evading Flyers have to snap fire; Evading Skimmers don't.

So if I made an out of turn shooting attack against your Storm Talon in Hover Strike mode, would you still get a Jink Save?

WhoopieMonster wrote:
So if I made an out of turn shooting attack against your Storm Talon in Hover Strike mode, would you still get a Jink Save?

I can't wait until they release a rules update for the Storm Talon's rules addressing the quirks of flyers for 6th Ed. Being as it counts as a skimmer that did not move, clearly no jink save is allowed while it is in Hover Strike mode. I also think it would be silly to allow Evasive maneuvers to be executed while In hover strike mode, as the vehicle counts as not moving for that round.

To me, all of this still doesn't allow the Storm Talon a way to avoid firing Snap Shots during it's next round if it executes Evasive Maneuvers while in Flyer mode. Still it is all kind of confusing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:
The Stormtalon doesn't ignore the status of the Evade rule, however. The Evade rule still applies to it. Since a Storm Talon that uses Hover Strike is not a Flyer but rather a Skimmer, it becomes an Evading Skimmer rather than an Evading Flyer. Evading Flyers have to snap fire; Evading Skimmers don't.

I don't think there is a case for an Evading Skimmer explaining that the rules function differently than for an Evading Skimmer; therefore, I cannot see a reason to think the rules would function differently for a Skimmer subject to the rule than for Flyers.

 Kingsley wrote:
The Stormtalon doesn't ignore the status of the Evade rule, however. The Evade rule still applies to it. Since a Storm Talon that uses Hover Strike is not a Flyer but rather a Skimmer, it becomes an Evading Skimmer rather than an Evading Flyer. Evading Flyers have to snap fire; Evading Skimmers don't.

Wrong, and more made up rules.

Evade lasts one full turn. The only type that has permission to evade is a zooming flyer. If you try to not be a zooming flyer yiou are breaking this rule, as you have no explicit permission to stop evading.

You cannot choose, while evading, to become a Skimmer / fast skimmer, as this will cause you to break a rule.

Exactly as given above, your permission only overrides one restriction, not the additional restriction placed on you when you are in evade.

Stop trying g to Easter egg this blatantly

 Kingsley wrote:
The Stormtalon doesn't ignore the status of the Evade rule, however. The Evade rule still applies to it. Since a Storm Talon that uses Hover Strike is not a Flyer but rather a Skimmer, it becomes an Evading Skimmer rather than an Evading Flyer. Evading Flyers have to snap fire; Evading Skimmers don't.

Where exactly can I find the rule for Evading Skimmers? I see jinking skimmers, skimmers moving flat out, but evading skimmers. There are no rules for evading skimmers (even if you claim jinking skimmers are evading, see Hover Strike and Jinking, no movement means no jink), which means that the "Evading skimmer" is not supported by rules that means this avenue of argument is one way until you come up with a rule that makes it a thoroughfare.

"An evading Flyer has the jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

Evading lasts into the next turn and a "Flyer" (not zooming flyer) that is evading fires snap shots. Just because you are using hover it doesn't make you suddenly not a Flyer, you are simply a flyer in Hover mode. You are treated as a fast skimmer, your type does actually change to a fast skimmer.

AKA if you evade it doesn't matter if you go hover, you are still evading and snap firing.

 BlueDagger wrote:
"An evading Flyer has the jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

Evading lasts into the next turn and a "Flyer" (not zooming flyer) that is evading fires snap shots. Just because you are using hover it doesn't make you suddenly not a Flyer, you are simply a flyer in Hover mode. You are treated as a fast skimmer, your type does actually change to a fast skimmer.

AKA if you evade it doesn't matter if you go hover, you are still evading and snap firing.

The FAQ with regard to sky fire, actually suggests that GW looks at Flyers as being a Flyer or a skimmer, and not both depending on what mode it currently is in.

 BlueDagger wrote:
"An evading Flyer has the jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

Evading lasts into the next turn and a "Flyer" (not zooming flyer) that is evading fires snap shots. Just because you are using hover it doesn't make you suddenly not a Flyer, you are simply a flyer in Hover mode. You are treated as a fast skimmer, your type does actually change to a fast skimmer.

AKA if you evade it doesn't matter if you go hover, you are still evading and snap firing.

You're making the same mistake so many others are making in this discussion, this is NOT about flyer (Hover), it is about the Hover strike rule of the storm talon. This rule DOES change it into a skimmer, in exchange for not moving, and being +1 BS.

WhoopieMonster wrote:
So if I made an out of turn shooting attack against your Storm Talon in Hover Strike mode, would you still get a Jink Save?

No.

evildrspock wrote:I don't think there is a case for an Evading Skimmer explaining that the rules function differently than for an Evading Skimmer; therefore, I cannot see a reason to think the rules would function differently for a Skimmer subject to the rule than for Flyers.

Well, it's simple. The rules describe what happens for an Evading Flyer. An Evading Skimmer isn't an Evading Flyer, so those rules don't apply to it.

nosferatu1001 wrote: You cannot choose, while evading, to become a Skimmer / fast skimmer, as this will cause you to break a rule.

Quote the rule that it breaks. You'll find there isn't one.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Where exactly can I find the rule for Evading Skimmers? I see jinking skimmers, skimmers moving flat out, but evading skimmers. There are no rules for evading skimmers (even if you claim jinking skimmers are evading, see Hover Strike and Jinking, no movement means no jink), which means that the "Evading skimmer" is not supported by rules that means this avenue of argument is one way until you come up with a rule that makes it a thoroughfare

There aren't any rules for the effects of Evading on Skimmers, so it has no effect.

Its the evade rule. You are no longer evading for a full turn, and have thus broken the rule

Please, quote a rule allowing you to break the evade rule. 3rd time of asking.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Its the evade rule. You are no longer evading for a full turn, and have thus broken the rule

No, I'm still evading. There just aren't any rules for the effects of evading on a skimmer, so it doesn't do anything anymore.

 evildrspock wrote:
I would give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and snapfire next round no matter what mode of travel I chose. It's an obvious penalty from gaining another benefit. Plus, it doesn't matter what BS a unit has if it may only snap fire next round.

How is it a benefit? Ive played the way the op says it should work and yes, you fire but then you get pounded as you are no longer hard to hit. Those of you making it out as advantageous.....its not, you lose your flier to gain the ability to fire on your turn. I disagree with the tourney ruling, you are fas skimmer type unless you are zooming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other wise youd be dead as flyers have to move 18....

Im sure GW's intention wasnt to allow stormtalons to use hover strike to avoid the penalty of only being able to snap fire in the following turn. It goes against the spirit of the game to try and think or even argue that by switching modes you can shoot at full BS, if in the preceding turn you evaded.

The rule for evading flyer is very specific, with out the language to allow you to over look it. When and if the FAQ this you will see the right way is and be sad they didnt see your silly argument as valid. Crap even the part where you continue to evade and snap shoot is BOLDED for your understanding.

 Kingsley wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Its the evade rule. You are no longer evading for a full turn, and have thus broken the rule

No, I'm still evading. There just aren't any rules for the effects of evading on a skimmer, so it doesn't do anything anymore.

No, because in order to evade for a full turn you have to be a zooming flyer. You have broken a rule

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Its the evade rule. You are no longer evading for a full turn, and have thus broken the rule

No, I'm still evading. There just aren't any rules for the effects of evading on a skimmer, so it doesn't do anything anymore.

No, because in order to evade for a full turn you have to be a zooming flyer. You have broken a rule

Quote the rule that says you have to be a zooming flyer for the full turn. This rule doesn't exist.

You repeatedly saying it doesnt exist does not alter plain fact

You have to be a zooming flyer while evading,a nd be so for a full turn.

Try rereading the evade rule. It is plain as day

 Kingsley wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Its the evade rule. You are no longer evading for a full turn, and have thus broken the rule

No, I'm still evading. There just aren't any rules for the effects of evading on a skimmer, so it doesn't do anything anymore.

??? Really? With the advent of 6th do we really have a 40k my way game going? Over the past few topics I've been in discussion in people have made that exact same claim, that there aren't any rules about it, so they can. This is patently false, if there aren't any rules for it then you cannot. There are no rules that say the BBB can't be used to smack my opponent over the head instead of shaking his hand, so I can do that. There aren't any rules that I can't magically teleport my army across the table and into close combat, so I can. That's a bunch of garbage. The rules must say you can do something rather than you can't do something. If there is no rules for an evading skimmer, well then by golly you can't be an evading skimmer because you don't have permission to be an evading skimmer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have to be a zooming flyer while evading

Not true. "If a Zooming Flyer comes under fire... you may choose to Evade until the end of your next turn." You have to be Zooming to choose to Evade. Nothing about the Evade rule indicates that you have to be Zooming for the entire duration of the turn. The process is as follows:

-Zooming Flyer comes under fire
-You may choose to Evade
-Evading Flyers gain Jink, but only fire Snap Shots

That's it. That's all it says. There's nothing that says you have to remain zooming for the entire turn. Further, if an effect turns you into a non-Flyer, then you no longer gain Jink and no longer have to fire Snap Shots, since you are no longer an "Evading Flyer." You have still chosen to use the Evade special rule until the end of your next turn. You are still Evading. But if you become a non-flyer, "Evading" doesn't mean anything for you, so you lose the Jink special rule and fire as normal.

The rule gives you: If A, then you can B. It doesn't allow you to do If not A, then you can B.

Thus, the second you are no longer A, you are no longer B. Thus, you broke the rule and your action is not allowed.

You are insisting that you can Evade when you are not a Zooming Flyer. This has no basis in the rule.

And again you are ignoring that by trying to change mode you are breaking the rules for Evade with no permission to do so.

Stop easter egging.

leohart wrote:
The rule gives you: If A, then you can B. It doesn't allow you to do If not A, then you can B.

Correct. If you are a zooming Flyer, you may choose to evade. If you are not a zooming Flyer, you may not choose to evade. However, once that choice is made, your status is no longer relevant.

Thus, the second you are no longer A, you are no longer B. Thus, you broke the rule and your action is not allowed.

Does not follow. If I have at least 45.50+tax in my wallet, I can buy a Stormtalon from my local GW store. If I do not have at least 45.50+tax in my wallet, I cannot buy a Stormtalon from my local GW store. I choose to buy a Stormtalon and give my money to the clerk. By your logic, the second I no longer have the money I am no longer allowed to buy a Stormtalon, so my previous action is invalidated. This is obviously wrong-- the fact that I currently do not have the ability to make a choice does not influence my previous choices.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And again you are ignoring that by trying to change mode you are breaking the rules for Evade with no permission to do so.

Since I've now explained multiple times how changing mode does not break the rules for Evade and you continue to insist that it does without rules justifications, you're now on my ignore list. Don't bother replying to my posts in the future, as I will not see your responses.

Except Nos is correct.

Changing to hover mode makes you not a flyer anymore.

Doing so makes you lose evade, which lasts til the end of your next turn.

"...Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the link special rule, but only fi.res Snap Shots."

Once you have chosen to evade you must do so until the end of your next turn. If you are not a flyer anymore you do not have the evade rules, as those are only for Zooming flyers, and you have broken the Evade rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Nos is correct.

Changing to hover mode makes you not a flyer anymore.

Doing so makes you lose evade, which lasts til the end of your next turn.

There isn't any rule that says that non-Flyers can't be Evading, only that non-Flyers cannot initiate Evading.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Nos is correct.

Changing to hover mode makes you not a flyer anymore.

Doing so makes you lose evade, which lasts til the end of your next turn.

"...Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the link special rule, but only fi.res Snap Shots."

Once you have chosen to evade you must do so until the end of your next turn. If you are not a flyer anymore you do not have the evade rules, as those are only for Zooming flyers, and you have broken the Evade rule.

I still see a problem with the "rules cannot break other rules" logic.

Re-rolling a Run roll violates the rules under "running" where it is not stated that you may reroll the D6.

Re-rolling the Run roll is permitted by fleet.

However, if you re-roll your run die (permitted by fleet or otherwise) then you have broken the Run rule.

This is statement possesses the logical structure of P -> ~Q, IF (you reroll the run die) THEN (you are NOT following the Run rule).

The statement "If you Hover Strike then you are not following the Evade rule" follows the same logical structure: P -> ~Q. You should apply the same logic in all situations, so...

can I fleet or not?

There isn't any rule that says that non-Flyers can't be Evading, only that non-Flyers cannot initiate Evading.

That is not how the rule work. You need a rule that permit you to evade when you are not a flyer to be able to do it.

There isn't a rule for A, so I can do A is wrong.

Does not follow. If I have at least 45.50+tax in my wallet, I can buy a Stormtalon from my local GW store. If I do not have at least 45.50+tax in my wallet, I cannot buy a Stormtalon from my local GW store. I choose to buy a Stormtalon and give my money to the clerk. By your logic, the second I no longer have the money I am no longer allowed to buy a Stormtalon, so my previous action is invalidated. This is obviously wrong-- the fact that I currently do not have the ability to make a choice does not influence my previous choices.

Metaphor only goes so far. I guess I should not have brought metaphor up. My point still stands.

Unit - and, again, that logic is wrong. You are explicitly breaking the rule for evade, run is not explicitly broken. Apples and oranges.

Kingsley - fair enough, you repeated the same ruleless argument over and over. Ignore is fine;

leohart wrote:

There isn't any rule that says that non-Flyers can't be Evading, only that non-Flyers cannot initiate Evading.

That is not how the rule work. You need a rule that permit you to evade when you are not a flyer to be able to do it.

There isn't a rule for A, so I can do A is wrong.

I see it the other way around. The rule talks about what you need to initiate Evading-- you need to be a Zooming Flyer. If you've met that condition, you've met that condition.

You would need a rule that prevented you from switching modes once you were Evading to be able to prevent you from going into Hover Mode or Hover Strike. I'm not saying that "there isn't a rule for Evading Skimmers, so Skimmers can Evade," but rather that "the Evade rules don't say you can't switch modes, so you can." There would need to be a rule restricting you from using your Hover Mode or Hover Strike ability when Evading to prevent this from occurring.

There is - which is that you have to remain evading for a full turn. If you stop evading you have broken a rule
Which you consistently ignore.

I am pretty sure the rule doesn't say initiate Evading. It says "keep on Evading until the end of the turn". From the text, Evading is duration-bound.

If you look at Go to Ground, once you go to Ground, you cannot do anything until the end of your subsequent turn (except snap firing). But the rule specifically allow you get back to normal should you Fall Back. Combat Tactics allow you to Fall Back. All possible actions are clearly spelled out. For you to be able to switch mode after you Evade, there has to be a rule that says so.

Claiming that you can switch to Hover Mode/Hover Strike after you decided to Evade for one full turn is like claiming that you can pop smoke after you decided to let the passengers shoot their gun.

leohart wrote:
I am pretty sure the rule doesn't say initiate Evading. It says "keep on Evading until the end of the turn". From the text, Evading is duration-bound.

The rule says that "a Zooming Flyer may choose to Evade." Once you've made that choice, you no longer have to be a Zooming Flyer.

I really dont see the point of this debate.

The only thing that really matters is Snap Fire.

Zooming, Hovering or Hover Striking either way the shot are resolved as Snap Shots after evading.

Honestly a player would have to be stupid to choose to hover or hover strike after evading. It would leave his flyer as a sitting duck.

ugh ok ok ok jeez you guys, how about this: take this whole thread and send it to Jervis @ GW. He'll respond, he always has to me, and get his final ruling. Please?

 Kingsley wrote:

leohart wrote:
I am pretty sure the rule doesn't say initiate Evading. It says "keep on Evading until the end of the turn". From the text, Evading is duration-bound.

The rule says that "a Zooming Flyer may choose to Evade." Once you've made that choice, you no longer have to be a Zooming Flyer.

Where's the rules support for that argument? Remember, prove you CAN do something, not saying the rules don't say xyz. If it was intended that you could evade and then not zoom, it would have been worded, after you have chosen to evade you are free to move at a different speed. It doesn't. It just says a zooming flyer can choose to evade. It's a simple if/then statement.

If the rules tell us we can evade when zooming, then we must be zooming when we evade. Until you provide rules support (not lack of rules because the BBB doesn't tell us a lot of things we can't do as I pointed out earlier) you're going to have a hard time convincing people of your argument. Since there is no rules support for your argument, it's going to be tough to sway people.

40k-noob wrote:
I really dont see the point of this debate.

The only thing that really matters is Snap Fire.

Zooming, Hovering or Hover Striking either way the shot are resolved as Snap Shots after evading.

Honestly a player would have to be stupid to choose to hover or hover strike after evading. It would leave his flyer as a sitting duck.

If Hover Strike is allowed after Evading, you don't end up Snap Firing. Those rules apply to Evading Flyers, not Evading Skimmers.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Where's the rules support for that argument? Remember, prove you CAN do something, not saying the rules don't say xyz. If it was intended that you could evade and then not zoom, it would have been worded, after you have chosen to evade you are free to move at a different speed. It doesn't. It just says a zooming flyer can choose to evade. It's a simple if/then statement.

Much the reverse. The rules say that a Zooming Flyer may choose to Evade. Okay, check.

Now on my next turn, my Evading Flyer has a choice to make. Do I want to Hover Strike? I look at the Evade rule and nothing says that I can't. I look at the Hover Strike rule and nothing says that I can't. I now choose to Hover Strike. I'm still Evading, but now I'm an Evading Skimmer instead of an Evading Flyer. At no point have I violated any rule. If it were intended that I had to Zoom after Evading, the Evade rule would point that out or the Hover Strike rule would simply indicate that it couldn't be used after Evading. Neither of those rules say that, so I can still Hover Strike.

There is no such thing as an Evading Skimmer.

 Kingsley wrote:
. At no point have I violated any rule.

Except you're twisting the rules to fit your interpretation. Evading skimmers? Not only is it violating a rule, it's creating a completely new one. Evade can only be found in the flyer rules. You're applying it to the skimmer rules, and trying to say see it's not there guess it doesn't affect them. You cannot apply Evade to a vehicle other than a flyer. The next step is that a zooming skimmer is the only one that gets the choice to evade, and if you choose to evade you have to apply the negative side of it until the very end. In other words you cannot Evade, then switch to hover mode because you are still in the process of evading and zooming was needed to initiate it. Any prerequisites for abilities have to be maintained through the entire use of the ability in question.

 Kingsley wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I really dont see the point of this debate.

The only thing that really matters is Snap Fire.

Zooming, Hovering or Hover Striking either way the shot are resolved as Snap Shots after evading.

Honestly a player would have to be stupid to choose to hover or hover strike after evading. It would leave his flyer as a sitting duck.

If Hover Strike is allowed after Evading, you don't end up Snap Firing. Those rules apply to Evading Flyers, not Evading Skimmers.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Where's the rules support for that argument? Remember, prove you CAN do something, not saying the rules don't say xyz. If it was intended that you could evade and then not zoom, it would have been worded, after you have chosen to evade you are free to move at a different speed. It doesn't. It just says a zooming flyer can choose to evade. It's a simple if/then statement.

Much the reverse. The rules say that a Zooming Flyer may choose to Evade. Okay, check.

Now on my next turn, my Evading Flyer has a choice to make. Do I want to Hover Strike? I look at the Evade rule and nothing says that I can't. I look at the Hover Strike rule and nothing says that I can't. I now choose to Hover Strike. I'm still Evading, but now I'm an Evading Skimmer instead of an Evading Flyer. At no point have I violated any rule. If it were intended that I had to Zoom after Evading, the Evade rule would point that out or the Hover Strike rule would simply indicate that it couldn't be used after Evading. Neither of those rules say that, so I can still Hover Strike.

No, you are incorrect. FAQ makes that pretty clear.

Once you are restricted to Snap Fire, no Special rule or Wargear can modify the ballistic Skill of Snap Shots.

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."

Switching to hover strike will not modify your restriction to Snap Fire.

40k-noob wrote:

No, you are incorrect. FAQ makes that pretty clear.

Once you are restricted to Snap Fire, no Special rule or Wargear can modify the ballistic Skill of Snap Shots.

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."

Switching to hover strike will not modify your restriction to Snap Fire.

Switching to Hover Strike removes the restriction on Snap Fire. That restriction applies only to Evading Flyers. A Stormtalon in Hover Strike mode is not a Flyer and therefore is not restricted to Snap Fire if it Evaded in the previous turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
. At no point have I violated any rule.

Except you're twisting the rules to fit your interpretation. Evading skimmers? Not only is it violating a rule, it's creating a completely new one. Evade can only be found in the flyer rules. You're applying it to the skimmer rules, and trying to say see it's not there guess it doesn't affect them.

No, I'm just pointing out that the Evade rule only has an effect on Evading Flyers. If you're Evading but no longer a Flyer, the rule doesn't affect you.

Any prerequisites for abilities have to be maintained through the entire use of the ability in question.

That definitely isn't true. It's really not justified anywhere, in fact. For instance, let's take Counter-Attack. Let's say we have a unit comprised of 10 models without Counter-Attack and one model with it. This unit gets charged and passes its Counter-Attack test. The model with Counter-Attack is then killed by Hammer of Wrath attacks. Does the unit suddenly lose their bonus attacks because it lost the prerequisite for the ability, even though it already took and passed its test? This seems obviously wrong.

 Kingsley wrote:

Any prerequisites for abilities have to be maintained through the entire use of the ability in question.

That definitely isn't true. It's really not justified anywhere, in fact. For instance, let's take Counter-Attack. Let's say we have a unit comprised of 10 models without Counter-Attack and one model with it. This unit gets charged and passes its Counter-Attack test. The model with Counter-Attack is then killed by Hammer of Wrath attacks. Does the unit suddenly lose their bonus attacks because it lost the prerequisite for the ability, even though it already took and passed its test? This seems obviously wrong.

In that situation, the unit does lose their counter attack bonus. We have numerous faqs that tell us that a unit determines if it has a special ability just before it strikes. Look at the Blood Chalice rule for the Blood Angels. If the unit is out of range when it attacks (even if it was in range when it charged) it loses the furious charge rule. You do not work out the number of attacks a unit has until it comes time for models to strike, and at that point the unit would not have the counter attack rule, that means that even though you passed the test and had it at the start of the fight subphase, when it comes time to attack you do not have the rule and thus cannot make use of it. Even if you rolled for it. With evade once you choose to use it (remember, you do NOT have to evade) you are stuck with it until evade fully resolves, and evade doesn't end (read resolve) until the turn after it was initiated.

Let me ask this, if a Storm Talon suffers an immobilized result on a turn that it is a flyer and suffers locked velocity, can you use hover strike? The answer is no, because you are forced to move at the speed you moved when suffering the result. Evade is similar to locked velocity, in that once you choose to evade for one turn you're stuck with it for the next turn. Once the velocity is locked you're stuck with it until the end of the game. Hover strike allows the overriding of Zoom, and only zoom. When you add an additional component to that zoom (Evade or Locked velocity for example), you cannot override it with hover strike because hover strike is only able to bypass zoom.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
. At no point have I violated any rule.

Except you're twisting the rules to fit your interpretation. Evading skimmers? Not only is it violating a rule, it's creating a completely new one. Evade can only be found in the flyer rules. You're applying it to the skimmer rules, and trying to say see it's not there guess it doesn't affect them. You cannot apply Evade to a vehicle other than a flyer. The next step is that a zooming skimmer is the only one that gets the choice to evade, and if you choose to evade you have to apply the negative side of it until the very end. In other words you cannot Evade, then switch to hover mode because you are still in the process of evading and zooming was needed to initiate it. Any prerequisites for abilities have to be maintained through the entire use of the ability in question.

I hate to jump back into this. I believe until the Hover strike rule gets a FAQ people will argue this forever.
However, I take exception to a key part of your argument Lone Dragoon. That part is that a zooming flyer that chooses to evade must continue to zoom. I understand the conclusion you come to parsing three related sentences that cover the rules of evade. However, To quote your own words, " you have to apply the negative side of it until the very end." Well the bolded third sentence from page 81 which you must have memorized by now has the negivtive side listed. The negative side is Snapfire. That's it. Snapfire is what caries into your next turn moving and shooting phase. Granted, you still have jink, it carries too, but so far a flyer is not going to be shot at in its next movement phase. Further, you suggest that if GW wanted a flyer to be able to switch to hover they would have added that to the rule. That is an assumption. I do not know if it is correct, but I do know that in other places on that page they choose to well define when a flyer needs to zoom. For example look at the rule for ongoing reserves. The flyer must zoom back on, can't hover back on. Same is true for the missile/bombing run rule, lets you know which modes can be used. Now look at the third sentence, in BOLD of the evade section, zoom is not listed. Flyer is, but not zoom.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Any prerequisites for abilities have to be maintained through the entire use of the ability in question.

That definitely isn't true. It's really not justified anywhere, in fact. For instance, let's take Counter-Attack. Let's say we have a unit comprised of 10 models without Counter-Attack and one model with it. This unit gets charged and passes its Counter-Attack test. The model with Counter-Attack is then killed by Hammer of Wrath attacks. Does the unit suddenly lose their bonus attacks because it lost the prerequisite for the ability, even though it already took and passed its test? This seems obviously wrong.

In that situation, the unit does lose their counter attack bonus.

I would like to point out that this is a poor example. Only the models in the unit that have the Counter-attack special rule benefit from it. If multiple models in the unit have the rule you only take one test, but only those models that actually have the rule benefit.

Happyjew wrote:
I would like to point out that this is a poor example. Only the models in the unit that have the Counter-attack special rule benefit from it. If multiple models in the unit have the rule you only take one test, but only those models that actually have the rule benefit.

Good point, my mistake.

I have no idea how they intended this to work, and FAQ would be welcome.

However, meantime I'm going to play as Kingsley suggests. That is to me most logical and clear reading of the rules. The requirement of being a 'zooming flyer' seems only apply to initiating of the evade, not to maintaining it. Restrictions are usually pretty clearly spelled out in GW rules. If they intended that evading vehicles must keep zooming on the next turn, they would've said that.

@Crimson: It is your call to play not according to RAW. It is very clear and logical from the other stand-point. And no, restrictions are usually not spelled out in GW rules. If they intend for evading vehicles to just skip the effect, they would've said that.

RAW is unclear, hence the disagreement.

This whole thing hinges on whether being a 'zooming flyer' is a requirement merely for intiating evade, or is it a requirement for maintaining it as well. I think the wording more strongly implies the former, but the rule is far from clear.

I have to disagree. RAW is clear. The exact wording says "until the end of your next turn". If that is unclear regarding the requirement to keep on evading then there is nothing else I can say to reason.

If you read back all 6 pages, most people (except you and Kingsley) agree with the interpretation that: once you choose to evade, you can't turn around and skip the penalty via Hover/Hover Strike.

leohart wrote:
I have to disagree. RAW is clear. The exact wording says "until the end of your next turn". If that is unclear regarding the requirement to keep on evading then there is nothing else I can say to reason.

Yes, you evade until the end of your next turn. No one has disputed that. But evading only has an effect if you're a flyer. There still is not a clear rule that disallows you from ceasing to be a flyer.

The point of this rule is to benefit defensively for an obvious trade off elsewhere. This isnt Magic: The Gathering where every word should be lawyered upon.

thats my two cents

Also, in the BRB it states (pg 4) "If you find that you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule, roll a dice to see whose interpretation will apply for the remainder of the game..."

In all fairness your friend forfeited the chance to apply his/your interpretation of the ruling for the remainder of the game. this should be considered a rule as it is under the heading "The Most Important Rule" (so long as were lawyering things up )

 Crimson wrote:

leohart wrote:
I have to disagree. RAW is clear. The exact wording says "until the end of your next turn". If that is unclear regarding the requirement to keep on evading then there is nothing else I can say to reason.

Yes, you evade until the end of your next turn. No one has disputed that. But evading only has an effect if you're a flyer. There still is not a clear rule that disallows you from ceasing to be a flyer.

....apart fromt eh rule saying you evade for a full turn, and have to be a flyer to evade. If you are not a flyer, you are no longer evading and have broken a rule with no allowance.

It doesn't say you have to be a flyer in order to evade. It only says that you need to be a zooming flyer in order to initiate evading, and that evading only has effects that apply to flyers.

...and that you have to evade for a full turn. Nowhere is "initiate" used - that is made up

"until the end of your next turn" Is there a qualifier there? Nope.

It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn as long as you're a flyer".
It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn unless you're a skimmer".

It says "until the end of your next turn".

So snap fire until the end of your next turn. This question does not warrant this length of a thread. There is not a shred of evidence that this restriction to only snap fire once applied can be removed by anything like switching flight modes.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
"until the end of your next turn" Is there a qualifier there? Nope.

It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn as long as you're a flyer".
It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn unless you're a skimmer".

It says "until the end of your next turn".

So snap fire until the end of your next turn. This question does not warrant this length of a thread. There is not a shred of evidence that this restriction to only snap fire once applied can be removed by anything like switching flight modes.

The rule says "An Evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots." If you aren't a Flyer, this rule does nothing. If you turn into a Skimmer with Hover Strike, you aren't a Flyer anymore.

Meaning you have broken the rule

aaaaand back round again. Easter egging factor 1000 there.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
"until the end of your next turn" Is there a qualifier there? Nope.

It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn as long as you're a flyer".
It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn unless you're a skimmer".

It says "until the end of your next turn".

So snap fire until the end of your next turn. This question does not warrant this length of a thread. There is not a shred of evidence that this restriction to only snap fire once applied can be removed by anything like switching flight modes.

The rule says "An Evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots." If you aren't a Flyer, this rule does nothing. If you turn into a Skimmer with Hover Strike, you aren't a Flyer anymore.

Again, I do not know how many times I have to post this:

BRB FAQ v1a wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

Lets look at this clearly.
1. What is Hover Strike? It is a Special Rule for a StormTalon.
2. What does Hover Strike do? It modifies the BS of the model and changes the type and restricts the model to not moving at all.

So now, lets go back to the FAQ.
1. With respect to the FAQ, is Hover Strike a "Special Rule?" YES, it is.
2. With respect to the FAQ, does Hover Strike modify the BS of the Model? YES, it does.

So can switching to Hover Strike remove the Snap Shot restriction applied to the StormTalen after evading in the enemy Shooting phase? No, it can not.


I do believe you can switch to Hover Strike because of the wording of Hover Strike, expressly allows you to choose to.
However it does not give you permission to remove the Snap Shot restriction and that is reiterated by the FAQ.

I'm not 100% convinced that evade prevents Hover Mode/Strike (although that does make he most sense rules-wise).
However there's no way the change (if allowed) would remove the snap shot restriction. It's a set duration that applies to the model.

40k-noob wrote:
I do believe you can switch to Hover Strike because of the wording of Hover Strike, expressly allows you to choose to.
However it does not give you permission to remove the Snap Shot restriction and that is reiterated by the FAQ.

You don't "remove the Snap Shot restriction." The restriction does not apply to you because you are not a Flyer. That's like saying that a unit that is pinned and then rallies via the Imperial Guard Get Back In The Fight! order still has to snap fire because you "can't remove the Snap Shot restriction--" the restriction doesn't apply to the unit at all anymore!

 Kingsley wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I do believe you can switch to Hover Strike because of the wording of Hover Strike, expressly allows you to choose to.
However it does not give you permission to remove the Snap Shot restriction and that is reiterated by the FAQ.

You don't "remove the Snap Shot restriction." The restriction does not apply to you because you are not a Flyer. That's like saying that a unit that is pinned and then rallies via the Imperial Guard Get Back In The Fight! order still has to snap fire because you "can't remove the Snap Shot restriction--" the restriction doesn't apply to the unit at all anymore!

Wow.

Look, if your model has been slapped with the Snap Fire stick then it's BS has been reduced to BS 1.

If you then changed from a "Flyer" to "Skimmer" then what happens to the model's BS? According to you, the Snap Fire rule is removed or disappears.
Then in that case what happens to the model's BS? It reverts or modifies BS of 1 to the model's original BS correct?

Well guess what? That special rule that allows you to change unit type cannot in anyway affect the BS of 1 once the Snap Fire rule has been applied to that model.

That is what the FAQ confirms. That is it, there no other way around it.
Using Hover Strike does not/can not affect the model's BS of 1 applied to it by evading in the previous enemy shooting phase.

40k-noob wrote:
Look, if your model has been slapped with the Snap Fire stick then it's BS has been reduced to BS 1.

If you then changed from a "Flyer" to "Skimmer" then what happens to the model's BS? According to you, the Snap Fire rule is removed or disappears.
Then in that case what happens to the model's BS? It reverts or modifies BS of 1 to the model's original BS correct?

The model is not subject to the Snap Fire rule, so it doesn't Snap Fire. It's not a modifier back to original BS. The rule simply doesn't apply. I notice you haven't even tried to address my example.

The T.O. was correct in his rulling. Simply because he spends less time trying to make a pig fly and rules with logic.

Your example with the guard is close to the same thing only gone to ground is snap fire only, the order to get back in the fight removes the gone to ground status and it says can act normally.

The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

 Kingsley wrote:
I notice you haven't even tried to address my example.

Your example is flawed. Get Back In The Fight removes the Go To Ground status. You've admitted that the Evading status isn't removed.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I notice you haven't even tried to address my example.

Your example is flawed. Get Back In The Fight removes the Go To Ground status. You've admitted that the Evading status isn't removed.

Exactly what Rigid said.

Also "Get Back in the Fight" has been amended in the IG FAQ to make such things clear.

IG FAQ v1.1 wrote:
Page 30 – Company Command Squad, Get Back in the Fight!
Change the second paragraph to:
“This order can only be issued to a unit that is falling back, or has gone to ground. If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back or, if it has currently gone to ground, the effects of going to ground end; this means it no longer has +1 to its cover saving throws and all restrictions incurred by going to ground are cancelled”.

Lungpickle wrote:
The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

This is a valid argument, but unfortunately its premises are untrue. The rules do not say that you must snap fire until the end of your next turn. They say that you Evade until the end of your next turn, and then describe the effects of Evading as follows: "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

This is critically different from saying that you may only Snap Fire until the end of your next turn, because you don't have the Snap Fire effect. You have the Evade effect. The Evade effect does nothing to a Skimmer. So if you use Hover Strike, you are still Evading. You look at the Evade rule to see what it does, and see that this has no effect on you because you are not a Flyer. At no point have you removed the Snap Shot restriction, because that restriction stopped applying as soon as you became a Skimmer instead of a Flyer.

 Kingsley wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

This is a valid argument, but unfortunately its premises are untrue. The rules do not say that you must snap fire until the end of your next turn. They say that you Evade until the end of your next turn, and then describe the effects of Evading as follows: "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

This is critically different from saying that you may only Snap Fire until the end of your next turn, because you don't have the Snap Fire effect. You have the Evade effect. The Evade effect does nothing to a Skimmer. So if you use Hover Strike, you are still Evading. You look at the Evade rule to see what it does, and see that this has no effect on you because you are not a Flyer. At no point have you removed the Snap Shot restriction, because that restriction stopped applying as soon as you became a Skimmer instead of a Flyer.

The model is still has the flyer special rule so it is still a flyer.

In other words. NO.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

This is a valid argument, but unfortunately its premises are untrue. The rules do not say that you must snap fire until the end of your next turn. They say that you Evade until the end of your next turn, and then describe the effects of Evading as follows: "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

This is critically different from saying that you may only Snap Fire until the end of your next turn, because you don't have the Snap Fire effect. You have the Evade effect. The Evade effect does nothing to a Skimmer. So if you use Hover Strike, you are still Evading. You look at the Evade rule to see what it does, and see that this has no effect on you because you are not a Flyer. At no point have you removed the Snap Shot restriction, because that restriction stopped applying as soon as you became a Skimmer instead of a Flyer.

The model is still has the flyer special rule so it is still a flyer.

In other words. NO.

Not true. First of all, Flyer isn't a special rule but rather a type-- second, a Stormtalon using the Hover Strike rule "changes its type to Skimmer" (WD 389, page 66). It is not considered a Flyer for any purpose.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

This is a valid argument, but unfortunately its premises are untrue. The rules do not say that you must snap fire until the end of your next turn. They say that you Evade until the end of your next turn, and then describe the effects of Evading as follows: "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

This is critically different from saying that you may only Snap Fire until the end of your next turn, because you don't have the Snap Fire effect. You have the Evade effect. The Evade effect does nothing to a Skimmer. So if you use Hover Strike, you are still Evading. You look at the Evade rule to see what it does, and see that this has no effect on you because you are not a Flyer. At no point have you removed the Snap Shot restriction, because that restriction stopped applying as soon as you became a Skimmer instead of a Flyer.

The model is still has the flyer special rule so it is still a flyer.

In other words. NO.

Not true. First of all, Flyer isn't a special rule but rather a type-- second, a Stormtalon using the Hover Strike rule "changes its type to Skimmer" (WD 389, page 66). It is not considered a Flyer for any purpose.

Which is why you cannot Hover strike, as youy have broken the requirement to Evade for a full turn, as you can no longer c omply with the requirements.

You will continue to ignore the rules showing your position is wrong, however, and we're back round again. n You're easter egging entirely here.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

This is a valid argument, but unfortunately its premises are untrue. The rules do not say that you must snap fire until the end of your next turn. They say that you Evade until the end of your next turn, and then describe the effects of Evading as follows: "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

This is critically different from saying that you may only Snap Fire until the end of your next turn, because you don't have the Snap Fire effect. You have the Evade effect. The Evade effect does nothing to a Skimmer. So if you use Hover Strike, you are still Evading. You look at the Evade rule to see what it does, and see that this has no effect on you because you are not a Flyer. At no point have you removed the Snap Shot restriction, because that restriction stopped applying as soon as you became a Skimmer instead of a Flyer.

The model is still has the flyer special rule so it is still a flyer.

In other words. NO.

Not true. First of all, Flyer isn't a special rule but rather a type-- second, a Stormtalon using the Hover Strike rule "changes its type to Skimmer" (WD 389, page 66). It is not considered a Flyer for any purpose.

"you can choose to evade until the end of your next turn".
So now that you chose to evade for that full amount of time, what rule removes or changes that choice? Nothing.

You see, you had to be a flyer to make that choice and you're now an evading skimmer. So lets say we allow it. Now you're an Evading Skimmer. We have no rules for Evading Skimmers.

Mission accomplished and you can make up rules now right? Nope. The model has jink and may only fire snap shots. Show anything that suggests you can ignore that part where you chose to evade until the end of your next turn.

Where in the rules does Happy Make Up Rules Time begin?

The very best argument you can make is "derp they forgot to mention an evading flyer that turns into an evading skimmer". There's nothing that says you're no longer evading, lose jink and can fire anything except snap shots.

Yes, evaning does not affect skimmers. This does not mean the skimmer can't be evading, it just doesn't affect it in any way.

Consider the fact that a flyer usually cant evade and hover at the same time (only zooming flyers can evade, and hover is done instead of zooming).

Hover strike is essentially a pseudo-hover mode (hence the "hover"), wouldn't it make sense that a Stormtalon making use of evade wouldnt be able to hover (strike) either?

just so everyone under stands, when i said "...hover (strike)" it refers to the hover strike rule. the parentheses are there for emphasis purposes.

There's no winning this argument one way or the other until we get a faq on this. Unfortunately.

Commander Riptide wrote:
Consider the fact that a flyer usually cant evade and hover at the same time (only zooming flyers can evade, and hover is done instead of zooming).

Hover strike is essentially a pseudo-hover mode (hence the "hover"), wouldn't it make sense that a Stormtalon making use of evade wouldnt be able to hover (strike) either?

just so everyone under stands, when i said "...hover (strike)" it refers to the hover strike rule. the parentheses are there for emphasis purposes.

thats it, essentially. Kingsley believes you can break the Evade rule by no longer being a flyer, people who read the Evade rule and note the duration believe you cant break one rule without permission to do so.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, evaning does not affect skimmers. This does not mean the skimmer can't be evading, it just doesn't affect it in any way.

This my friend is the part where you are adding your own idea of what should happen. There is no rule that says "evading does not effect skimmers".

RAW does not say you may modify your previous choice to evade for the full amount of time.

Evading Skimmers not being defined does not excuse you from your choice to take the penalty for the benefit of evading.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Evading Skimmers not being defined does not excuse you from your choice to take the penalty for the benefit of evading.

Um, what? If Evading Skimmers don't have any rule defined for them, claiming they have to follow some other rule is... you guessed it... making up rules.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Evading Skimmers not being defined does not excuse you from your choice to take the penalty for the benefit of evading.

Um, what? If Evading Skimmers don't have any rule defined for them, claiming they have to follow some other rule is... you guessed it... making up rules.

Much like claiming you can break the evade rule when you have no permission to do so.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Evading Skimmers not being defined does not excuse you from your choice to take the penalty for the benefit of evading.

Um, what? If Evading Skimmers don't have any rule defined for them, claiming they have to follow some other rule is... you guessed it... making up rules.

No I'm not in fact. We're not just reading a book and parsing sentences, but instead we are describing a series of events that happen in 3D.

1. You Flyer we assume is on the table.
2. Your specific flyer, that specific model in front of you Evades and now you have agreed it gets jink and can only fire snap shots until the end of the models following turn.
3. That model becomes an Evading Skimmer.

So at the point in time that you are claiming you're free to use your imagination you have on the table:

At this point in time we have a model that can jink and can only fire snap shots until the end of its following turn.

You turn it into a Skimmer - fine. We have no rules now for Evading Skimmers, but what even suggests that this model may alter the CHOICE to snap fire until the end of it's following turn?
Nothing. Leaving everything as is in the absence of an Evading Skimmer rule you still can not fire normally and alter your choice.

No RAW even hints that you may lift the penalty at this point in the game.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
You Flyer we assume is on the table.
2. Your specific flyer, that specific model in front of you Evades and now you have agreed it gets jink and can only fire snap shots until the end of the models following turn.
3. That model becomes an Evading Skimmer.

Point 2 is where you're wrong. We don't agree that it gets jink and can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn-- we agree that it follows the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn. The Evade rules mean that, if the model is a Flyer, it gets Jink but can only fire Snap Shots. This is a very important difference, because once the model stops being a Flyer, it's not that it stops Evading-- it is still Evading-- but the effects of Evading no longer apply to it, as they are limited to Flyers.

So I do not break my agreement to follow the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn by going into Hover Strike. The Evade effect is still in place. It just doesn't do anything anymore, since it only affects Flyers.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
You Flyer we assume is on the table.
2. Your specific flyer, that specific model in front of you Evades and now you have agreed it gets jink and can only fire snap shots until the end of the models following turn.
3. That model becomes an Evading Skimmer.

Point 2 is where you're wrong. We don't agree that it gets jink and can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn-- we agree that it follows the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn. The Evade rules mean that, if the model is a Flyer, it gets Jink but can only fire Snap Shots. This is a very important difference, because once the model stops being a Flyer, it's not that it stops Evading-- it is still Evading-- but the effects of Evading no longer apply to it, as they are limited to Flyers.

So I do not break my agreement to follow the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn by going into Hover Strike. The Evade effect is still in place. It just doesn't do anything anymore, since it only affects Flyers.

I see what you're saying but I disagree. The order of events is important. Your flyer evades and therefore the model may jink and only snap fire thereafter. The restrictions are not because you're "evading" but because you "evaded when you were a flyer". There is no step where you reevaluate if you are still a flyer.

You chose to evade at a point in the game. You don't get to keep making a choice of course. You're not choosing to evade on your next turn, you evaded, so on your next turn the model has jink and snap shots.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
You Flyer we assume is on the table.
2. Your specific flyer, that specific model in front of you Evades and now you have agreed it gets jink and can only fire snap shots until the end of the models following turn.
3. That model becomes an Evading Skimmer.

Point 2 is where you're wrong. We don't agree that it gets jink and can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn-- we agree that it follows the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn. The Evade rules mean that, if the model is a Flyer, it gets Jink but can only fire Snap Shots. This is a very important difference, because once the model stops being a Flyer, it's not that it stops Evading-- it is still Evading-- but the effects of Evading no longer apply to it, as they are limited to Flyers.

So I do not break my agreement to follow the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn by going into Hover Strike. The Evade effect is still in place. It just doesn't do anything anymore, since it only affects Flyers.

Wait!?!?
You agree that it is still evading but somehow what Evade does to the model no longer applies?!?!

So EVADE is not EVADE?

What is this Shakespeare?

Nope, just a blatant attempt at easter egging, or more usually "cheating"

You cannot break the evade rule by no longer evading for a full turn, which going into hover / hover strike would do.

Calling people who disagree with you 'cheaters' is not terribly polite.

What do you call people who break rules?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What do you call people who break rules?

The problem is that you assume you are right. GW has a notorious way of ruling things contrary to what common sense or RAW would say, which would suddenly leave you breaking the rules and being the "cheater"

The fact this thread went as far as it did means it needs addressing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What do you call people who break rules?

Depends. Are they breaking the rules intentionally, or do they not know the rule that well, and misunderstand it?

True enough. They are both cheating, but intent plays a part

Currently RAW you break the rules if you try to stop evading for a full turn

Nemesor Dave wrote:I see what you're saying but I disagree. The order of events is important. Your flyer evades and therefore the model may jink and only snap fire thereafter. The restrictions are not because you're "evading" but because you "evaded when you were a flyer". There is no step where you reevaluate if you are still a flyer.

I see your point, but I think your Jink and Snap Fire status immediately goes away once you become a non-Flyer. The status specifically says "Evading Flyers have" and does not state a time limit. If the rule said that "Evading Flyers have Jink and Snap Fire until the end of their next turn," I suspect you would be right-- but instead it simply says that Evading Flyers have Jink and Snap Fire and the Evade status itself lasts until the next turn.

40k-noob wrote:Wait!?!?
You agree that it is still evading but somehow what Evade does to the model no longer applies?!?!

So EVADE is not EVADE?

What is this Shakespeare?

Correct. The status "Evading" is separate from gaining Jink and Snap Fire. Having to Jink and Snap Fire is a consequence of this rule that only applies to Flyers. If an Evading model becomes a non-Flyer, it no longer gains Jink and Snap Fire.

slightly scared to weign in from the size of this



stormtalon is a flyer

it evades so gains the jink rule and snap shots rules

it enters however mode so changes from flyer to skimmer

since it isnt a flyer it loses the evade rule

it has lost the evade rule but that doesnt mean it loses the jink and snap shot rules it was given by the evade rule


its like a friend gives you a chocolate bar, if he then leaves you still have the bar, it doens tmagically get up and follow him out

destuctir wrote:
slightly scared to weign in from the size of this



stormtalon is a flyer

it evades so gains the jink rule and snap shots rules

it enters however mode so changes from flyer to skimmer

since it isnt a flyer it loses the evade rule

it has lost the evade rule but that doesnt mean it loses the jink and snap shot rules it was given by the evade rule


its like a friend gives you a chocolate bar, if he then leaves you still have the bar, it doens tmagically get up and follow him out

You have it backwards. When the Stormtalon evades, it gains the Evade rule. The Evade rule grants Evading Flyers Jink and Snap Shot. When the Stormtalon turns into a Skimmer, it still has the Evade rule, but because the Evade rule only grants Jink and Snap Shot to Flyers, the Stormtalon does not have Jink or Snap Shot.

This is an obvious case of trying to exploit a loophole which is CLEARLY not intended to exist.

Or, Kingsley, Crimson & co. are intentionally misinterpreting the rules.

Or, they fail to understand causality.

In either case, being this bloody-minded, about something so obvious, would mean I would never play a single game with them or anyone like them. If anything like this comes up in the tournament I'm entering in a weeks time, I'd have no problem marking this player as a "difficult opponent" and leave the match.

There really isn't any way to interpret the rule as anything other than RAW.

p.81: "After the enemy has rolled to hit against one of your flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." (Italics added by me, Bold as in the BRB)

You choose to "Evade until the end of your next turn" which means you "EVADE UNTIL THE END OF YOUR NEXT TURN". There is NO ROOM for interpretation here.

In the same spirit of the "interpretation" that breaks this rule: It says in the rules that if there are no models from one side left on the table, then that side has lost. What it DOESN'T say is that I can't pick my opponent's models up and throw them on the floor, so if I'm losing the game, all I have to do is pick my opponents models up and throw them on the floor, and then I WIN! YAY! Effing stupid, but according to Kingsley and Crimson, that's allowed! Woohoo. Loophole: FOUND!

This rule is so obvious to anyone who's not trying to exploit or game the rules, I'm frankly surprised anyone would add their name to the argument. Trying to exploit the rules like this, and being this stubborn about it, marks you out as "TFG" to everyone, and would definitively exclude you from our gaming-group.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
This is an obvious case of trying to exploit a loophole which is CLEARLY not intended to exist.

Or, Kingsley, Crimson & co. are intentionally misinterpreting the rules.

Or, they fail to understand causality.

In either case, being this bloody-minded, about something so obvious, would mean I would never play a single game with them or anyone like them. If anything like this comes up in the tournament I'm entering in a weeks time, I'd have no problem marking this player as a "difficult opponent" and leave the match.

There really isn't any way to interpret the rule as anything other than RAW.

p.81: "After the enemy has rolled to hit against one of your flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." (Italics added by me, Bold as in the BRB)

You choose to "Evade until the end of your next turn" which means you "EVADE UNTIL THE END OF YOUR NEXT TURN". There is NO ROOM for interpretation here.

In the same spirit of the "interpretation" that breaks this rule: It says in the rules that if there are no models from one side left on the table, then that side has lost. What it DOESN'T say is that I can't pick my opponent's models up and throw them on the floor, so if I'm losing the game, all I have to do is pick my opponents models up and throw them on the floor, and then I WIN! YAY! Effing stupid, but according to Kingsley and Crimson, that's allowed! Woohoo. Loophole: FOUND!

This rule is so obvious to anyone who's not trying to exploit or game the rules, I'm frankly surprised anyone would add their name to the argument. Trying to exploit the rules like this, and being this stubborn about it, marks you out as "TFG" to everyone, and would definitively exclude you from our gaming-group.

Kingsley (at least from the last few posts) is arguing that you cannot stop Zooming. His claim is that the vehicle doesn't have Jink/Snapfire for a turn, it's that thy have Evade for a turn, which is what grants them Jink/Snapfire. Since only Evading Flyers can Jink/Snapfire, the moment you are not a Flyer (such as Hovering/Hover Strike) you are not evading, and as such have broken the Evade rule.

Happyjew wrote:Kingsley (at least from the last few posts) is arguing that you cannot stop Zooming. His claim is that the vehicle doesn't have Jink/Snapfire for a turn, it's that thy have Evade for a turn, which is what grants them Jink/Snapfire. Since only Evading Flyers can Jink/Snapfire, the moment you are not a Flyer (such as Hovering/Hover Strike) you are not evading, and as such have broken the Evade rule.

But, and this is a big but (not the kind Sir Mixalot likes), since it clearly states that you choose to have Evade until the end of your next turn, and you can't have Evade unless you are zooming, it's clear that you cannot stop zooming until the end of your next turn. Nowhere does it say that you can choose to stop Evading whenever you please, because it lasts until the end of your next turn. Therefore, since you can't stop Evading until the end of your next turn, and you can't Evade unless you are zooming, it's clear that you can't stop zooming until the end of your next turn.

DE Elder wrote:
So a buddy of mine was in a tournament this past weekend and had what I think is a bad ruling against him. See what you guys think.

So his Storm Talon gets shot the previous turn and he jinks as a flyer. As a flyer, when you jink you have to shoot snap shots the following turn. During his turn he switches to Hover Strike Mode. While in Hover Strike Mode you switch your type from Flyer to Fast Skimmer. he went to fire at BS 5 with all of his weapons at a squad of 3 Tactical marines on an objective. His opponent argued he had to snap fire because he is a flyer and the TO agreed. Long story short, he didnt kill the marines because of BS 1 and lost the game.

Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Appreciate the feedback.

BRB Page 81; Hover (bold point); "if a flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a fast skimmer" Underlined word indicating the flyer never stops being a flyer, it just gets treated like a fast skimmer. The ruling was correct.

 Bausk wrote:

DE Elder wrote:
So a buddy of mine was in a tournament this past weekend and had what I think is a bad ruling against him. See what you guys think.

So his Storm Talon gets shot the previous turn and he jinks as a flyer. As a flyer, when you jink you have to shoot snap shots the following turn. During his turn he switches to Hover Strike Mode. While in Hover Strike Mode you switch your type from Flyer to Fast Skimmer. he went to fire at BS 5 with all of his weapons at a squad of 3 Tactical marines on an objective. His opponent argued he had to snap fire because he is a flyer and the TO agreed. Long story short, he didnt kill the marines because of BS 1 and lost the game.

Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Appreciate the feedback.

BRB Page 81; Hover (bold point); "if a flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a fast skimmer" Underlined word indicating the flyer never stops being a flyer, it just gets treated like a fast skimmer. The ruling was correct.

Not talking about Hover. Stormtalon doesn't have Hover.

I know this thread is 8 pages but the last one or two pages would make it pretty what has been debated here.

Perhaps a small investment in time could bring you up to speed on the subject at hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
This is an obvious case of trying to exploit a loophole which is CLEARLY not intended to exist.

Or, Kingsley, Crimson & co. are intentionally misinterpreting the rules.

Or, they fail to understand causality.

In either case, being this bloody-minded, about something so obvious, would mean I would never play a single game with them or anyone like them. If anything like this comes up in the tournament I'm entering in a weeks time, I'd have no problem marking this player as a "difficult opponent" and leave the match.

There really isn't any way to interpret the rule as anything other than RAW.

p.81: "After the enemy has rolled to hit against one of your flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." (Italics added by me, Bold as in the BRB)

You choose to "Evade until the end of your next turn" which means you "EVADE UNTIL THE END OF YOUR NEXT TURN". There is NO ROOM for interpretation here.

In the same spirit of the "interpretation" that breaks this rule: It says in the rules that if there are no models from one side left on the table, then that side has lost. What it DOESN'T say is that I can't pick my opponent's models up and throw them on the floor, so if I'm losing the game, all I have to do is pick my opponents models up and throw them on the floor, and then I WIN! YAY! Effing stupid, but according to Kingsley and Crimson, that's allowed! Woohoo. Loophole: FOUND!

This rule is so obvious to anyone who's not trying to exploit or game the rules, I'm frankly surprised anyone would add their name to the argument. Trying to exploit the rules like this, and being this stubborn about it, marks you out as "TFG" to everyone, and would definitively exclude you from our gaming-group.

Kingsley (at least from the last few posts) is arguing that you cannot stop Zooming. His claim is that the vehicle doesn't have Jink/Snapfire for a turn, it's that thy have Evade for a turn, which is what grants them Jink/Snapfire. Since only Evading Flyers can Jink/Snapfire, the moment you are not a Flyer (such as Hovering/Hover Strike) you are not evading, and as such have broken the Evade rule.

Kinsley is ENTIRELY INCORRECT.

A Flyer does not gain EVADE. That is a complete misunderstanding of the Flyer unit type and it's USR's.
A Flyer has the EVADE USR by the mere nature of being a Flyer.

A player can CHOOSE to make use of the EVADE USR that is available to his flyer during the enemy shooting phase. In doing so, the Flyer GAINS Jink and is restricted to Snap Fire.

After having gained Jink and the restriction to Snap Fire, choosing to make a Hoverstrike does 3 things:
1. Changes the model's Unit Type to Skimmer
2. Restricts the model to being Stationary (not allowed to move)
3. Increases BS to 5

Making use of Hoverstike changes the model to a skimmer but does not loose Jink because, a Skimmer already has Jink, so that is a wash.
Making use of Hoverstrike does not remove the Snap Fire restriction because there is nothing in the HS rule that explicitly removes anything except movement.

Lastly, the FAQ explicity says that no Special Rule or piece of wargear can modify the BS of 1 once a model has been restricted to snap fire.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'd agree with the TO on this one. Can't say I'd be shocked if a GW FAQ later ruled the opposite way though.

Or if they ruled both ways at some point.

Really, this is a work around- you are trying to have the advantages of jinking without the rather costly disadvantages of jinking. Ultimately, just because his type changed does not mean that he did not jink last turn and is no longer subject to the effects of his jinking. I think the TO was right on this one too.

Also, this way there is a reason for him to decide not to jink (a real one, that is strategically important) rather than always getting the best of both worlds.

Now, GW's FAQs tend to be all kinds of crazy, and sometimes they give us 'clarifications' that have no bearing on the rules as written.

The stormtalon isn't just a flier or skimmer, it's still a stormtalon. If you use an ability that causes an effect, then you must adhere to the effects of that ability to its completion unless otherwise expressly stated in the rules...you can't just use an ability or movement to your advantage to get out of a negative consequence of something else, unless that something else expressly states that it can be used to do so. Your friend was trying to fudge the rules in his favor, if it had happened to him first then I am sure he would argue otherwise

Happyjew wrote:Kingsley (at least from the last few posts) is arguing that you cannot stop Zooming. His claim is that the vehicle doesn't have Jink/Snapfire for a turn, it's that thy have Evade for a turn, which is what grants them Jink/Snapfire. Since only Evading Flyers can Jink/Snapfire, the moment you are not a Flyer (such as Hovering/Hover Strike) you are not evading, and as such have broken the Evade rule.

I'm arguing against that. The vehicle has the Evading status until the end of its next turn. The Evading status grants Jink and Snapfire as long as you are a Flyer. Once you become a non-Flyer, you do NOT stop Evading. However, Jink and Snapfire stop applying, because these specifically apply only to Evading Flyers and not Evading Skimmers.

odinsgrandson wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I'd agree with the TO on this one. Can't say I'd be shocked if a GW FAQ later ruled the opposite way though.

Or if they ruled both ways at some point.

Really, this is a work around- you are trying to have the advantages of jinking without the rather costly disadvantages of jinking. Ultimately, just because his type changed does not mean that he did not jink last turn and is no longer subject to the effects of his jinking. I think the TO was right on this one too.

Also, this way there is a reason for him to decide not to jink (a real one, that is strategically important) rather than always getting the best of both worlds.

Now, GW's FAQs tend to be all kinds of crazy, and sometimes they give us 'clarifications' that have no bearing on the rules as written.

Not quite. There are still reasons to decide not to jink. Hover Striking is a substantial disadvantage under normal circumstances because it causes you to lose the ability to Skyfire and makes you immobile. Further, once you've performed a Hover Strike, you lose your Hard to Hit status and cannot Jink on your next turn. These disadvantages make in impractical in most circumstances, even though it does allow you to shoot normally after Evading.

I'm gonna throw in on the "blatantly trying to bend the rules to your advantage" side here. Even if you can justify it as RAW to yourself (which I would disagree with, but to each his own) I think it clearly goes against RAI.

40k-noob wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

DE Elder wrote:
So a buddy of mine was in a tournament this past weekend and had what I think is a bad ruling against him. See what you guys think.

So his Storm Talon gets shot the previous turn and he jinks as a flyer. As a flyer, when you jink you have to shoot snap shots the following turn. During his turn he switches to Hover Strike Mode. While in Hover Strike Mode you switch your type from Flyer to Fast Skimmer. he went to fire at BS 5 with all of his weapons at a squad of 3 Tactical marines on an objective. His opponent argued he had to snap fire because he is a flyer and the TO agreed. Long story short, he didnt kill the marines because of BS 1 and lost the game.

Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Appreciate the feedback.

BRB Page 81; Hover (bold point); "if a flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a fast skimmer" Underlined word indicating the flyer never stops being a flyer, it just gets treated like a fast skimmer. The ruling was correct.

Not talking about Hover. Stormtalon doesn't have Hover.

I know this thread is 8 pages but the last one or two pages would make it pretty what has been debated here.

Perhaps a small investment in time could bring you up to speed on the subject at hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
This is an obvious case of trying to exploit a loophole which is CLEARLY not intended to exist.

Or, Kingsley, Crimson & co. are intentionally misinterpreting the rules.

Or, they fail to understand causality.

In either case, being this bloody-minded, about something so obvious, would mean I would never play a single game with them or anyone like them. If anything like this comes up in the tournament I'm entering in a weeks time, I'd have no problem marking this player as a "difficult opponent" and leave the match.

There really isn't any way to interpret the rule as anything other than RAW.

p.81: "After the enemy has rolled to hit against one of your flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." (Italics added by me, Bold as in the BRB)

You choose to "Evade until the end of your next turn" which means you "EVADE UNTIL THE END OF YOUR NEXT TURN". There is NO ROOM for interpretation here.

In the same spirit of the "interpretation" that breaks this rule: It says in the rules that if there are no models from one side left on the table, then that side has lost. What it DOESN'T say is that I can't pick my opponent's models up and throw them on the floor, so if I'm losing the game, all I have to do is pick my opponents models up and throw them on the floor, and then I WIN! YAY! Effing stupid, but according to Kingsley and Crimson, that's allowed! Woohoo. Loophole: FOUND!

This rule is so obvious to anyone who's not trying to exploit or game the rules, I'm frankly surprised anyone would add their name to the argument. Trying to exploit the rules like this, and being this stubborn about it, marks you out as "TFG" to everyone, and would definitively exclude you from our gaming-group.

Kingsley (at least from the last few posts) is arguing that you cannot stop Zooming. His claim is that the vehicle doesn't have Jink/Snapfire for a turn, it's that thy have Evade for a turn, which is what grants them Jink/Snapfire. Since only Evading Flyers can Jink/Snapfire, the moment you are not a Flyer (such as Hovering/Hover Strike) you are not evading, and as such have broken the Evade rule.

Kinsley is ENTIRELY INCORRECT.

A Flyer does not gain EVADE. That is a complete misunderstanding of the Flyer unit type and it's USR's.
A Flyer has the EVADE USR by the mere nature of being a Flyer.

A player can CHOOSE to make use of the EVADE USR that is available to his flyer during the enemy shooting phase. In doing so, the Flyer GAINS Jink and is restricted to Snap Fire.

After having gained Jink and the restriction to Snap Fire, choosing to make a Hoverstrike does 3 things:
1. Changes the model's Unit Type to Skimmer
2. Restricts the model to being Stationary (not allowed to move)
3. Increases BS to 5

Making use of Hoverstike changes the model to a skimmer but does not loose Jink because, a Skimmer already has Jink, so that is a wash.
Making use of Hoverstrike does not remove the Snap Fire restriction because there is nothing in the HS rule that explicitly removes anything except movement.

Lastly, the FAQ explicity says that no Special Rule or piece of wargear can modify the BS of 1 once a model has been restricted to snap fire.

Geez man your right, I should have read the OP better. hes talking about a Storm Talon. Storm Talons are fast skimmers and are never flyers. They have Jink USR from being a Skimmer and the jink USE does not reduce your BS at all. A Storm Talon can never evade as its not a flyer. Thanks for pointing that out.

 Bausk wrote:
Geez man your right, I should have read the OP better. hes talking about a Storm Talon. Storm Talons are fast skimmers and are never flyers. They have Jink USR from being a Skimmer and the jink USE does not reduce your BS at all. A Storm Talon can never evade as its not a flyer. Thanks for pointing that out.

Stormtalons were changed to Flyers with the 6th Edition release.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Geez man your right, I should have read the OP better. hes talking about a Storm Talon. Storm Talons are fast skimmers and are never flyers. They have Jink USR from being a Skimmer and the jink USE does not reduce your BS at all. A Storm Talon can never evade as its not a flyer. Thanks for pointing that out.

Stormtalons were changed to Flyers with the 6th Edition release.

Fair nuff, then ow. Totally legal change to its base type when it hover strikes, bit beardy but legal.

Oh, look... Another rule that limits everyone except Spess Marehns!!! YAY!!!!

Space Marines are the only army that currently has the "hover" rule... If they keep the "oh, I evaded last turn, but now I'm hovering so as not to be subject to the penalty cost for the bonus I just recieved..." Then I would just tell whatever SM player that wanted to play against me, that I had to wash my hair...

Seriously, if you get the benefit of the one, without the cost... then you are WAAC... I'll call you the winner, and move on... I have 3 space marine forces... I will be using flyers... I will NOT claim that I get all the boons, and none of the banes... I believe the TO had it dead on...

 Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Oh, look... Another rule that limits everyone except Spess Marehns!!! YAY!!!!

Space Marines are the only army that currently has the "hover" rule... If they keep the "oh, I evaded last turn, but now I'm hovering so as not to be subject to the penalty cost for the bonus I just recieved..." Then I would just tell whatever SM player that wanted to play against me, that I had to wash my hair...

Seriously, if you get the benefit of the one, without the cost... then you are WAAC... I'll call you the winner, and move on... I have 3 space marine forces... I will be using flyers... I will NOT claim that I get all the boons, and none of the banes... I believe the TO had it dead on...

As long as this debate has gone on, it's still debated amongst everyone, and we're unlikely to find a consensus on this forum. Make a ruling in your local gaming group and stick to it, according to how your friends see it.

DE Elder wrote:Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Being a flyer anymore is irrelevant; he shoots Snap Shots because he evaded, not because he is a flyer that evaded. Changing unit type doesn't change the fact that he evaded.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Being a flyer anymore is irrelevant; he shoots Snap Shots because he evaded, not because he is a flyer that evaded. Changing unit type doesn't change the fact that he evaded.

Yes, it doesn't chance the fact that it evaded. Evade rule however has no effects that affect skimmers.

Concur that once you've Evaded you're stuck with the aftereffects of Snap Shooting. Changing unit type doesn't take away that consequence.

this thread should be locked. debate is just going in circles.

my .02 cents