Bleeping "Death Ray". Hey, GW, go find the moron who came up with that thing. Then fire them. Tell him the Tau made you do it. No worth while freaking AA with out buying new stuff...yeah...I see what they did there. Worth noting. It's 1:30 AM and I cant sleep. then I saw a post with one word. Necrons. The only guy I have to play right now has them. I'm sick of looking at 'em. Maybe tommorow I'll edit this post to say fluffy bunnies or something else worth commenting to the OP.
Orks only get stronger if they live long enough, and even then it's on an individual basis. If you fight the same waaghh over two year period, the orcs within the waaaagh will never be stronger than before so long as you manage to kill them each time.
As well, the Octavius war showed us that killing a single warboss can throw an entire waaagh into disarray. Space Marines excel at deep striking into the enemy camp, killing the leader, than pulling out.
Orks are probably a Space Marine's most preferred enemy besides regular humans.
On-topic, I'd say Necrons, due to their superior technology. As BlaxicanX said, taking out the Warboss would cause the Waaagh!!! to fall apart allowing Imperial forces to take advantage and wipe them out, and DoW II show that by using surgical strikes are effective in delaying the Tyranids until Naval and Guard forces can build up the numbers to counter-attack, while simultaneously weakening the Hive Fleet by the loss of so many synapse creatures. With regard to the Forces of Chaos, its arguable those are what the Space Marines were originally meant to fight against, or rather, Chaos-tainted factions during the Great Crusade. The Eldar's psychic superiority can be said to be neutralized by the raw power of Librarians. Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee, it just makes them easier prey for Space Marines.
Daemons, Nids and Necrons. Most chapters do not have the resources to contend with warp beings and warp rifts short of exterminatus. Nids, as someone pointed out before, are virtually immune to most tactics. They feel no fear, they have vast numbers, knowledge of tactics and strategy and are tough. Necrons are innumerable, high tech, souless robots led around by a few intelligent AIs, strategy and tactics just delay the inevitable.
Tadashi wrote: On-topic, I'd say Necrons, due to their superior technology. As BlaxicanX said, taking out the Warboss would cause the Waaagh!!! to fall apart allowing Imperial forces to take advantage and wipe them out, and DoW II show that by using surgical strikes are effective in delaying the Tyranids until Naval and Guard forces can build up the numbers to counter-attack, while simultaneously weakening the Hive Fleet by the loss of so many synapse creatures. With regard to the Forces of Chaos, its arguable those are what the Space Marines were originally meant to fight against, or rather, Chaos-tainted factions during the Great Crusade. The Eldar's psychic superiority can be said to be neutralized by the raw power of Librarians. Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee, it just makes them easier prey for Space Marines.
This actually led me to realise another point that makes the Necrons a greater threat than most factions.
While Tyranids and Orks are formidable, they have a known infrastructure that can be shattered by killing the synapse creatures and Warbosses respectively.
With the Necrons, such surgical strikes are not as effective, it is incredibly difficult to truly destroy a Necron Warrior, let alone an Overlord, and if bested, they usually simply phase back to their Tomb and the battle still goes on as it had before.
The Necrons are one of the rare races that can't be quelled by surgical applications of extreme force, which even Daemons can (Taking out what's keeping them in the Materium, whether it be a big bad leader Daemon, a Sorcerer, etc.). The Necrons back this aspect up with superior technology and numbers (Over Space Marines anyway).
The Necrontyr, easily. They have a limited number unlike Chaos or Nids, but to actually bring that number down is damned difficult. Kill one, it stands up. Kill it again, it stands up. Grab a melta-gun and destroy it permanently, it teleports back to the nearest base, a Canoptek Spyder repairs it, it teleports back down in the next available unit. In Fall of Damnos, a unit of Warriors was flanking a Monolith, the Marines destroyed the Warriors, and then another squad identical to the first walked through the portal. Nids are infinite or near as damn it, but they can be killed, you can target synapse creatures and break the link to the Hive Mind. Orks are almost without number, but killing Chieftains and Warbosses can throw them into in-fighting, making it easy to pick them off as they squabble amongst themselves. Chaos Daemons are immortal, but again, they can be sent back to the Warp, you can make defences against them. But what do you do if indestructible machines with technology that far surpasses that of any species in the galaxy crawls out from beneath the ground itself? Weaponry that can bring down a Battle Barge in a single shot? Ships the size of PLANETS that can singlehandedly wipe out an entire sector whilst its shields repel EVERY weapon the Imperium has to offer? You can't target leaders, they just respawn. You can't crush them in weight of numbers because Marines are few. You can exterminatus a planet, but they'll simply shift to the nearest Tomb World and potentially wake that one up as well. If you systematically wiped out planet after planet after planet, you'd reach the last one to fight every Necron in existence all at once.
Having said all that, if I were a Marine I'd hate fighting Nids. It's hard to get that squishy ooze off my boots.
I wonder how Space Marines manage to beat Necrons at all, honestly. Necrons have stronger weaponry, are more durable, and have more numbers. Because they're essentially walking computers, they aren't vulnerable to fear or shellshock. What advantage do Space Marines possibly have over them?
Necrons and Tyranids are both races that I think the Guard are better suited for fighting.
Guard would have a rough time of it too, but they're a better match for Necrons than Space Marines by nature.
Necrons are a slow, lumbering race who's general strategy in most fights it to clump up in a massive gun-line and slowly advance upon the enemy, firing their weapons. Though they have fast moving vehicles like Void Ravens and the like, they aren't generally a mobile race, like the Tyranids or the Eldar/DaElder, and they don't often do things like deep-strikes and outmaneuvering, like Space Marines. They also don't bother to hide their troop movements.
So from that perspective, they're arguably the most vulnerable faction to things like mass artillery strikes, orbital bombardments, etc.
Necron weaponry is predominantly mid-ranged focused, and extremely powerful, which makes it good for killing durable but not too numerous targets like Space Marines, whereas it's overkill and provides diminishing returns against MSU such as the Guard.
Space Marines love close ranged combat, which falls right into Necron hands, whereas the Guard prefer to pour out huge volumes of fire from a distance.
Space Marines can't afford wars of attrition, whereas fighting grinding wars with massive casualties suits the Guard just fine. In fact they can afford to lose more men than the Necrons can.
Again, not saying that it would be easy- as history has shown the Guard have arguably lost more battles against the Necrons than won (sans the infamous Calvary charge lulz). But I still think they're a better match for them than most of the other factions.
Though Necrons would be hilariously fethed if the Tyranids managed to evolve a resiliancy to gauss/tesla weaponry. gg
I agree with the assessment that necrons are probably a good match for space marines, but not that they're the greatest threat ever. People seem to be assigning them some serious infallibility that just isn't there.
1) Theyre not unfeeling, fearless, logical machines. They're mortal beings put in machine bodies, with many of the same vices and issues multiplied by a million in their new forms. Even the warriors aren't immune to fear, it says so in the dex and it's the reason none of them are fearless, they still have instinctive fight or flight responses. Put that on top of the various madnesses that afflict the upper classes, not to even mention Flayed One craziness, and they're dangerous but not cold, calculating bastards who will always win.
2) Theyre not cohesive. Saying nobody could ever stand up to "the necrons" would be like saying alien invaders wouldn't be able to take on all the armies of earth: this is assuming we could all work together. There's tremendous infighting among the necrons and it's not likely to end soon seeing as every overlord's mindset is "well, our mighty empire must be reunited and must span the stars....under MY leadership. And I'll make the other overlords serve me robocoffee. What will Iake my goofy helmet crest look like...?"
all in all, I'd say necrons' biggest flaw is that they're the cackling, superintelligent bond villain of the 40k universe. Their sinister plans to take over the world(s) will be ultimately thwarted by extreme ego and a dash of their own craziness.
BlaxicanX wrote: Guard would have a rough time of it too, but they're a better match for Necrons than Space Marines by nature.
Necrons are a slow, lumbering race who's general strategy in most fights it to clump up in a massive gun-line and slowly advance upon the enemy, firing their weapons. Though they have fast moving vehicles like Void Ravens and the like, they aren't generally a mobile race, like the Tyranids or the Eldar/DaElder, and they don't often do things like deep-strikes and outmaneuvering, like Space Marines. They also don't bother to hide their troop movements.
So from that perspective, they're arguably the most vulnerable faction to things like mass artillery strikes, orbital bombardments, etc.
Necron weaponry is predominantly mid-ranged focused, and extremely powerful, which makes it good for killing durable but not too numerous targets like Space Marines, whereas it's overkill and provides diminishing returns against MSU such as the Guard.
Space Marines love close ranged combat, which falls right into Necron hands, whereas the Guard prefer to pour out huge volumes of fire from a distance.
Space Marines can't afford wars of attrition, whereas fighting grinding wars with massive casualties suits the Guard just fine. In fact they can afford to lose more men than the Necrons can.
Again, not saying that it would be easy- as history has shown the Guard have arguably lost more battles against the Necrons than won (sans the infamous Calvary charge lulz). But I still think they're a better match for them than most of the other factions.
Though Necrons would be hilariously fethed if the Tyranids managed to evolve a resiliancy to gauss/tesla weaponry. gg
This really isn't true at all. Necrons have honed a lot more tactics than just "Clump and fight" After thousands of years of infighting, and fighting against the Old ones and other races of the galaxy. A lot of times this is how Warriors are depicted, but it's far from how all (Or even close to all) Warfare has been conducted by the Necrons.
There are plenty of examples in the codex of Necrons completely tactically outwitting opponents. Zahndrekh and Imotekh are probably the best examples of this.
As for Tyranids evolving, I don't think there is a way to evolve against something that strips your atoms apart, lol.
This really isn't true at all. Necrons have honed a lot more tactics than just "Clump and fight" After thousands of years of infighting, and fighting against the Old ones and other races of the galaxy. A lot of times this is how Warriors are depicted, but it's far from how all (Or even close to all) Warfare has been conducted by the Necrons.
There are plenty of examples in the codex of Necrons completely tactically outwitting opponents. Zahndrekh and Imotekh are probably the best examples of this.
THIS. Even with the Imperial Guard, they just don't always use meat grinder tactics. Same with Necrons - basic tactic is the 'implacable advance', but the newcrons are dangerously versatile in terms of tactics. Only completely random enemies like Orks have a long-term guarantee against them.
Tadashi wrote: On-topic, I'd say Necrons, due to their superior technology. As BlaxicanX said, taking out the Warboss would cause the Waaagh!!! to fall apart allowing Imperial forces to take advantage and wipe them out, and DoW II show that by using surgical strikes are effective in delaying the Tyranids until Naval and Guard forces can build up the numbers to counter-attack, while simultaneously weakening the Hive Fleet by the loss of so many synapse creatures. With regard to the Forces of Chaos, its arguable those are what the Space Marines were originally meant to fight against, or rather, Chaos-tainted factions during the Great Crusade. The Eldar's psychic superiority can be said to be neutralized by the raw power of Librarians. Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee, it just makes them easier prey for Space Marines.
Your kidding right. Lots of dark eldar love to fight in melee and are some of the best duelist ever. Other then that I agree mostly. Nids would pose am issue just because the marines would run out of bolter rounds fast.
Tadashi wrote: On-topic, I'd say Necrons, due to their superior technology. As BlaxicanX said, taking out the Warboss would cause the Waaagh!!! to fall apart allowing Imperial forces to take advantage and wipe them out, and DoW II show that by using surgical strikes are effective in delaying the Tyranids until Naval and Guard forces can build up the numbers to counter-attack, while simultaneously weakening the Hive Fleet by the loss of so many synapse creatures. With regard to the Forces of Chaos, its arguable those are what the Space Marines were originally meant to fight against, or rather, Chaos-tainted factions during the Great Crusade. The Eldar's psychic superiority can be said to be neutralized by the raw power of Librarians. Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee, it just makes them easier prey for Space Marines.
Your kidding right. Lots of dark eldar love to fight in melee and are some of the best duelist ever. Other then that I agree mostly. Nids would pose am issue just because the marines would run out of bolter rounds fast.
I was referring to the Tau.
Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee...
Which was mentioned first, Dark Eldar or Necrons?
And what idiot Astartes Commander would take 'nids head on? Surgical strikes to fragment the synapse web and delay/weaken the Hive Fleet until Guard and Navy reinforcements can arrive is the standard procedure IIRC.
I'd say necrons. Most SM tactics dictate surgical strikes that only space marines are tough enough and ferocious enough to pull off. But that tactic doesnt work on necrons. What DOES work is massive application of overwhelming firepower. Essentially, concentrate on target, annihilate, choose next target etc. Space Marines aren't designed for such tactics.
This really isn't true at all. Necrons have honed a lot more tactics than just "Clump and fight" After thousands of years of infighting, and fighting against the Old ones and other races of the galaxy. A lot of times this is how Warriors are depicted, but it's far from how all (Or even close to all) Warfare has been conducted by the Necrons.
There are plenty of examples in the codex of Necrons completely tactically outwitting opponents. Zahndrekh and Imotekh are probably the best examples of this.
As for Tyranids evolving, I don't think there is a way to evolve against something that strips your atoms apart, lol.
Don't agree with that, tbh. Imotekh and Zahndrekh are specifically noted for being prodigies, and are only a few Necron tacticians out of, apparently, hundreds if not thousands. Trying to claim that their tactics and strategies are "the norm" for Necrons is like trying to say that most Guardsmen use Creed-level tactics.
I would imagine that the reason why they're commonly portrayed the way they are is because... that's how they generally are.
Tadashi wrote: On-topic, I'd say Necrons, due to their superior technology. As BlaxicanX said, taking out the Warboss would cause the Waaagh!!! to fall apart allowing Imperial forces to take advantage and wipe them out, and DoW II show that by using surgical strikes are effective in delaying the Tyranids until Naval and Guard forces can build up the numbers to counter-attack, while simultaneously weakening the Hive Fleet by the loss of so many synapse creatures. With regard to the Forces of Chaos, its arguable those are what the Space Marines were originally meant to fight against, or rather, Chaos-tainted factions during the Great Crusade. The Eldar's psychic superiority can be said to be neutralized by the raw power of Librarians. Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee, it just makes them easier prey for Space Marines.
Your kidding right. Lots of dark eldar love to fight in melee and are some of the best duelist ever. Other then that I agree mostly. Nids would pose am issue just because the marines would run out of bolter rounds fast.
You're kidding right?
Everyone knows that marine bolters never run dry unless it's plot-important that they do so...
Think about it. When did you last see Marines with more than one spare clip (barring conversions).
I would point out that Necrons are just about immune to artillery strikes. You can't target them. They can baffle just about any sensor you use to get a fix, so you're always firing blind (Again, see Fall of Damnos for details, it really is a most useful book). Also, Guard tend to get behind cover and set up firing lines, whilst Necron Warriors tend to march forward in phalanxes. That's all well and good, and the Guardsmen will have a bit of a home advantage... Until the Warriors teleport inside the walls. Or Scarabs burrow up through the ground and swarm all over you. Or Wraiths materialise inside tanks and slaughter the occupants. Or Gauss weaponry de-atomises the cover. Or Deathmarks teleport next to the enemy and gut them.
BlaxicanX wrote: Don't agree with that, tbh. Imotekh and Zahndrekh are specifically noted for being prodigies, and are only a few Necron tacticians out of, apparently, hundreds if not thousands. Trying to claim that their tactics and strategies are "the norm" for Necrons is like trying to say that most Guardsmen use Creed-level tactics.
I would imagine that the reason why they're commonly portrayed the way they are is because... that's how they generally are.
"Zahndrekh and Imotekh are the two best examples" =/= "ALL NECRONS ARE LIKE IMOTEKH AND ZAHNDREKH IN STRATEGY AND TACTICS."
Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.
Void__Dragon wrote: "Zahndrekh and Imotekh are the two best examples" =/= "ALL NECRONS ARE LIKE IMOTEKH AND ZAHNDREKH IN STRATEGY AND TACTICS."
That's exactly what it means if the statement is made in regards to my post. I didn't say that all Necrons fight the same way", I said "generally". Thus, trying to argue that there are examples of necrons fighting otherwise is irrelevant to my point.
Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.
No it doesn't.
You're just buttset that Necrons got pwned by horse-riding Mongolians.
That said, really that depends on what kind of battle. The Space Marines would never survive against most foes except in short raids for the most part, they simply don't have the numbers or capabilities (e.g. their air support is extremely limited, their artillery support is practically nonexistent, their fleets are small and outgunned by many foes, their recon abilities are also limited basically to SM Scouts with binoculars and orbital surveys, etc). Most major opponents wouldn't have much trouble annihilating an Astartes chapter if they really wanted to.
So really, it's not the type of foe, it's the type of battle. Any sort of attritional or multi-dimensional battle would quickly see the Space Marines destroyed.
Space Marines suffer when they can't perform hit-and-run shock attacks on key targets.
If you can pin them down (E.g. force them to defend a certain position rather than run about killing people) then you can wear them down and kill them a lot easier than you could otherwise.
The title says 'battle', not 'war' or 'campaign of genocide'. SM could destroy any race in battle, but it all comes down to circumstance. Has the fight already begun, or have the Imperials not even engaged yet? Is there any intel or are the SM going in locked and loaded, yet ignorant of what they're against? Personally in a head to head battle I'd say CSM would be difficult because they're essentially fighting their equals, although the selfishness and lack of brotherhood among most traitors would probably tip the scales in the loyalists favour IMO.
Also, the necron fanboyism is strong in this thread. They're undead, kill the necromancer and its gg.
purplefood wrote: Space Marines suffer when they can't perform hit-and-run shock attacks on key targets.
If you can pin them down (E.g. force them to defend a certain position rather than run about killing people) then you can wear them down and kill them a lot easier than you could otherwise.
Call in the Imperial Fists
In honesty I don't think there is enough information provided by the OP to provide an actual answer. Is there a battle in Space First, what sort of Planet are they on, is it a whole Chapter or a Company, is it an all out assault by the other Race, is it expected or a surprise attack?
Space Marines a pretty capable of defeating any opponent despite the odds, but then they can also be defeated and there are also levels of defeat. Battle of Mcragge is a good example of a victory and a loss of a Space Marine Chapter, as is the battle involving the World Engine against the Necron.
MarsNZ wrote: The title says 'battle', not 'war' or 'campaign of genocide'. SM could destroy any race in battle, but it all comes down to circumstance. Has the fight already begun, or have the Imperials not even engaged yet? Is there any intel or are the SM going in locked and loaded, yet ignorant of what they're against? Personally in a head to head battle I'd say CSM would be difficult because they're essentially fighting their equals, although the selfishness and lack of brotherhood among most traitors would probably tip the scales in the loyalists favour IMO.
Also, the necron fanboyism is strong in this thread. They're undead, kill the necromancer and its gg.
Yeah, what he said. Apart from the last part, I don't think that's the way it works.
Tadashi wrote: On-topic, I'd say Necrons, due to their superior technology. As BlaxicanX said, taking out the Warboss would cause the Waaagh!!! to fall apart allowing Imperial forces to take advantage and wipe them out, and DoW II show that by using surgical strikes are effective in delaying the Tyranids until Naval and Guard forces can build up the numbers to counter-attack, while simultaneously weakening the Hive Fleet by the loss of so many synapse creatures. With regard to the Forces of Chaos, its arguable those are what the Space Marines were originally meant to fight against, or rather, Chaos-tainted factions during the Great Crusade. The Eldar's psychic superiority can be said to be neutralized by the raw power of Librarians. Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee, it just makes them easier prey for Space Marines.
Your kidding right. Lots of dark eldar love to fight in melee and are some of the best duelist ever. Other then that I agree mostly. Nids would pose am issue just because the marines would run out of bolter rounds fast.
You're kidding right?
Everyone knows that marine bolters never run dry unless it's plot-important that they do so...
Think about it. When did you last see Marines with more than one spare clip (barring conversions).
You are kidding right? When was the last time you have seen ANYONE run out of ammo in 40k? Its a god damn TT game covering a single battle, you arnt going to be dealing with ammo.
Only in BL books but even in those you rarely have SM behind enemy lines for long periods of time and they usually have supply lines. If they DO get cut off than ya ammo DOES become an issue and books will mention trying to conserve ammo or even running out.
I was referring to the fluff, not the tt game I made mention of conversions because most other races have spare clips as addons for the models, usually in multiples, but few SM do.
Also: Bladestorm
Guard novels often have ammo run out, or be running low.
I can only think of a couple of occasions when SM run low/out. They are generally referred to as mowing down thousands of foes, but a bolter doesn't hold thousands of rounds.
Those shells are frickin' huge, and a clip only holds a few. The Marines in question aren't referred to as packing around a little red wagon full of clips each, and are rarely mentioned to be reloading, or even pausing to do so in mid fight unless it's cinematic to be slapping in a new clip after downing a baddie.
In short, it's like action movies, wher ethe ammo never runs dry unless the plot needs to revolve on the fact or a martial arts scene is next up.
Nothing wrong with that, but realistic it ain't. Hordes of Nids/Orks/whatever aren't going to pause after you empty your 10 shots into them to allow reloading time. Suspension of disbelief is assumed, because SM don't lose in BL books in which they are the heroes.
A similar example would be Calgar holding the gate for 3 days against an Ork horde. Did they all forget to bring ammo and CC weapons, let alone artillery?
Badass Calgar is, but his armour isn't THAT good
We allow ourselves to let it pass, because it's 40K fluff. Realism got left at the door, right along with common sense
Ascalam wrote: I was referring to the fluff, not the tt game I made mention of conversions because most other races have spare clips as addons for the models, usually in multiples, but few SM do.
Also: Bladestorm
Guard novels often have ammo run out, or be running low.
I can only think of a couple of occasions when SM run low/out. They are generally referred to as mowing down thousands of foes, but a bolter doesn't hold thousands of rounds.
Those shells are frickin' huge, and a clip only holds a few. The Marines in question aren't referred to as packing around a little red wagon full of clips each, and are rarely mentioned to be reloading, or even pausing to do so in mid fight unless it's cinematic to be slapping in a new clip after downing a baddie.
In short, it's like action movies, wher ethe ammo never runs dry unless the plot needs to revolve on the fact or a martial arts scene is next up.
Nothing wrong with that, but realistic it ain't. Hordes of Nids/Orks/whatever aren't going to pause after you empty your 10 shots into them to allow reloading time. Suspension of disbelief is assumed, because SM don't lose in BL books in which they are the heroes.
A similar example would be Calgar holding the gate for 3 days against an Ork horde. Did they all forget to bring ammo and CC weapons, let alone artillery?
Badass Calgar is, but his armour isn't THAT good
We allow ourselves to let it pass, because it's 40K fluff. Realism got left at the door, right along with common sense
You see this is why I find it weird, I encounter the SMs running out of ammo in fluff as often as they mention the IG running out. They NEVER mention soldiers reloading in stories, IG or Marine, just because you dont need to read that.
Are they firing more ammo than they would logically have? Oh ya for sure, maybe thats the point you are trying to make, they have more ammo than usual but there are plenty of stories of them having ammo issues. Like the example you had with Calgar, it was because they ran out of ammo, which is exactly what you were saying, they didnt have enough ammo for the job.
Now dont miss understand me, anyone with any miltary experince can tell you that these novels have the soldiers burning through like 7 times the ammount of ammo that they should have on them but a lot of novels actually do refrence ammo issues. They only refrence them while fighting Tyranids, Orks, or Chaos Daemons/Cultist mobs however
The Orks in question are not mentioned as being out of ammo. He just holds them off somehow with the infinite clips in his gloves My point was that apparently (and unmentioned in the fluff entry) he must have been fighting unarmed orks with no support, because otherwise that feat would be impossible. Hell, it'd be impossible even then..
It could be we're reading different stories here, but i've run into more references of low ammo/running out for non-marines than not.
I don't have the complete run of BL books, nor every codex, so it could be i'm just missing the ones that have Marines having to reload
The point i'm making is that the fluff is basically an action movie in text. the heroes never run out of ammo, unless it's cinematic or there is a need to drive home the badassness or numbers of the enemy.
The IG novels i've read tend to bring up the need to reload occasionally ('sven slapped a new powerpack into his lasgun...') or that ammo might be an issue ( 'the men are running low on ammo..' ) whereas the SM ones don't.
The SM would run dry far quicker if realism was asserted because of the huge size of the boltgun loads. A Lasgun powerpack is good for many many shots, and can be recharged. Boltgun rounds don't grow on trees, and are far bulkier to carry than lasgun clips. Mowing down thousands of enemies would need thousands of rounds, which would make the SM in question look like walking ammo belts with a gun barrel sticking out.
Not a biggie though. I'm not out to crusade for realism in BL I was just pointing out the absurdity of the ammo situation
The Orks in question are not mentioned as being out of ammo. He just holds them off somehow with the infinite clips in his gloves My point was that apparently (and unmentioned in the fluff entry) he must have been fighting unarmed orks with no support, because otherwise that feat would be impossible. Hell, it'd be impossible even then..
It could be we're reading different stories here, but i've run into more references of low ammo/running out for non-marines than not.
I don't have the complete run of BL books, nor every codex, so it could be i'm just missing the ones that have Marines having to reload
The point i'm making is that the fluff is basically an action movie in text. the heroes never run out of ammo, unless it's cinematic or there is a need to drive home the badassness or numbers of the enemy.
The IG novels i've read tend to bring up the need to reload occasionally ('sven slapped a new powerpack into his lasgun...') or that ammo might be an issue ( 'the men are running low on ammo..' ) whereas the SM ones don't.
The SM would run dry far quicker if realism was asserted because of the huge size of the boltgun loads. A Lasgun powerpack is good for many many shots, and can be recharged. Boltgun rounds don't grow on trees, and are far bulkier to carry than lasgun clips. Mowing down thousands of enemies would need thousands of rounds, which would make the SM in question look like walking ammo belts with a gun barrel sticking out.
Not a biggie though. I'm not out to crusade for realism in BL I was just pointing out the absurdity of the ammo situation
Void__Dragon wrote: Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.
No it doesn't.
Yeah, actually the Necron Codex does say this on page 30, paragraph 5, second sentence onwards.
the_scotsman wrote: I agree with the assessment that necrons are probably a good match for space marines, but not that they're the greatest threat ever. People seem to be assigning them some serious infallibility that just isn't there.
1) Theyre not unfeeling, fearless, logical machines. They're mortal beings put in machine bodies, with many of the same vices and issues multiplied by a million in their new forms. Even the warriors aren't immune to fear, it says so in the dex and it's the reason none of them are fearless, they still have instinctive fight or flight responses. Put that on top of the various madnesses that afflict the upper classes, not to even mention Flayed One craziness, and they're dangerous but not cold, calculating bastards who will always win.
2) Theyre not cohesive. Saying nobody could ever stand up to "the necrons" would be like saying alien invaders wouldn't be able to take on all the armies of earth: this is assuming we could all work together. There's tremendous infighting among the necrons and it's not likely to end soon seeing as every overlord's mindset is "well, our mighty empire must be reunited and must span the stars....under MY leadership. And I'll make the other overlords serve me robocoffee. What will Iake my goofy helmet crest look like...?"
all in all, I'd say necrons' biggest flaw is that they're the cackling, superintelligent bond villain of the 40k universe. Their sinister plans to take over the world(s) will be ultimately thwarted by extreme ego and a dash of their own craziness.
Obviously...ancient, implacable machines united under near-omnipotent beings from the dawn of time will always trump over TOMB KINGS IN SPACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Void__Dragon wrote: Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.
No it doesn't.
Yeah, actually the Necron Codex does say this on page 30, paragraph 5, second sentence onwards.
Void__Dragon wrote: Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.
No it doesn't.
Yeah, actually the Necron Codex does say this on page 30, paragraph 5, second sentence onwards.
nope
"For many nemesors, it is unthinkable to honour an alien enemy with the traditional codes of battle. In their eyes, most races are little more than vermin to be wiped away with as much efficiency and as little pomp as possible. Most of the more advanced races, such as the Eldar, have simply proven themselves unworthy of being treated as equals. So it is that assassination and ambush - forms of combat forbidden in wars between the nobility - are employed against outsiders without reservation."
Sigh, my camera is broken, can another Necron player take a pic of the 5th paragraph on page 30 of the Necron codex and post it? Or just a massive general consensus that this is what it says? Or perhaps BlaxicanX can take a look at the fifth paragraph on page 30 of a Necron Codex himself and save us the trouble of having to go out of our way for him.
In my so important opinion in the fluff it is between necrons and nids. Necrons in the fluff i believe have guns that ignore most armor and nids just keep coming. I may be wrong about the necrons guns.
samtheking wrote: In my so important opinion in the fluff it is between necrons and nids. Necrons in the fluff i believe have guns that ignore most armor and nids just keep coming. I may be wrong about the necrons guns.
You're right about Necron guns, they strip enemy armor away atom by atom using a molecular disassembling beam. I ran the maths, once, a squad of 20 Necron Warriors within 12" of a Land Raider should by laws of averages wreck it in one turn because of their Gauss Flayers.
samtheking wrote: In my so important opinion in the fluff it is between necrons and nids. Necrons in the fluff i believe have guns that ignore most armor and nids just keep coming. I may be wrong about the necrons guns.
You're right about Necron guns, they strip enemy armor away atom by atom using a molecular disassembling beam. I ran the maths, once, a squad of 20 Necron Warriors within 12" of a Land Raider should by laws of averages wreck it in one turn because of their Gauss Flayers.
Actually according to mathhammer you only need 18 to strip 4 hull points
samtheking wrote: In my so important opinion in the fluff it is between necrons and nids. Necrons in the fluff i believe have guns that ignore most armor and nids just keep coming. I may be wrong about the necrons guns.
You're right about Necron guns, they strip enemy armor away atom by atom using a molecular disassembling beam. I ran the maths, once, a squad of 20 Necron Warriors within 12" of a Land Raider should by laws of averages wreck it in one turn because of their Gauss Flayers.
Actually according to mathhammer you only need 18 to strip 4 hull points
You're right, I think I was working on the assumption that I only fit squads in multiples of 5.
I think in terms of the greatest threat to all the Necrons take it for all of the listed reasons. As for the greatest threat/hardest to defeat for the Space Marines specifically, I would say Chaos/Chaos Space Marines. Space Marines know no fear, but they know the value of a tactical withdraw. When it comes to fighting Chaos they are very likely to take an unnecessary risk that could be the downfall of a chapter. Also, they can just pop out of the warp seemingly at will and killing one doesn't mean that they actually die. How many times has Eliphas been killed in the DoW2 franchise?
Eldar and Dark Eldar and here is my reasoning. In a battle I always see the Imperium's forces as a person trying to hammer in a nail, where the enemy is the nail, the Guard are the hand that holds it steady and the Space Marines/Storm Troopers/Sisters of Battle as the hammer that strikes the nail into the wood. The Eldar and Dark Eldar, are that nail a lot, but when they are that nail, that nail is covered slick in grease, oil and various other lubricants that stop the hand holding it steady and when you try to hammer it in the wood all you end up doing is ending up with sore broken fingers.
The Tyranids are winning that war. In a WD issue (March, I believe when the Tervigon kit came out) It had the Swarmlord personally kill 3 warbosses, and the Tyranids had already taken over a continent.
Your all thinking too small, Space Marines have tactics specifically designed to combat nid infestations and necron tomb worlds.
I believe they refer to it as "Orbital Lance Strikes, hooray for Orbital Lance Strikes" for when surgical application of force fails and only wholesale application of ungodly firepower will do.
In all seriousness the hardest foe for Space Marines are usually chaos cults, whereas space marines are trained in light infantry tactics, guerrilla warfare and infiltration, they still aren't ideally suited tot he task, and lets not forget most cultists, especially higher up, have taken serious measure to protect themselves from even being discovered.
The moral of the story, you cannot claim military superiority over a force that's more than willing to annihilate the planet your standing on, you can however send them away, thinking your dead and the threat is over.
Other that cultists I'd say the biggest foe to Astartes is the administratum.
The Tyranids are winning that war. In a WD issue (March, I believe when the Tervigon kit came out) It had the Swarmlord personally kill 3 warbosses, and the Tyranids had already taken over a continent.
In an ork army comprising of of likely billions of combatants, with entire ork armies joining in every day, I hardly think that 3 warbosses is something that the other orks are really concerned about. Orks are said to grow stronger as they win, and in a conflict this size I think its safe to say that any one warboss felled, two nobz will rise to the occasion (and beat each other senseless until one stands the victor and takes control of all the former warbosses command.) As for taking over one continent in an entire system of planets, good for them, that just makes it easier to crash roks and guarantee tyranid kills.
now the reverse of this is true as well, the nids probably don't care that numerous hive tyrants have been killed cause they just gather some biomass and build a new one.
the entire point of this conflict from a fluff point of view is simple, if the nids win, they become nigh unstoppable, if the orks win, they become nigh unstoppable and at the end of the day the Imperium is screwed
In an ork army comprising of of likely billions of combatants, with entire ork armies joining in every day, I hardly think that 3 warbosses is something that the other orks are really concerned about. Orks are said to grow stronger as they win, and in a conflict this size I think its safe to say that any one warboss felled, two nobz will rise to the occasion (and beat each other senseless until one stands the victor and takes control of all the former warbosses command.) As for taking over one continent in an entire system of planets, good for them, that just makes it easier to crash roks and guarantee tyranid kills.
Yes, an entire continent on the central planet of this conflict is a very big deal, as it shows the Tyranids are gaining a large amount of ground.
As for Planets in the sector, every listed known planet, besides Octarius itself has been consumed by the Tyranids.
Orrok - Consumed by Hive Fleet Leviathan.
Ghorala - Consumed by Leviathan.
Derragon - Consumed by Leviathan, after it consumed Ghorala.
Keltor - Consumed by Leviathan, after it consumed Ghorala.
In an ork army comprising of of likely billions of combatants, with entire ork armies joining in every day, I hardly think that 3 warbosses is something that the other orks are really concerned about. Orks are said to grow stronger as they win, and in a conflict this size I think its safe to say that any one warboss felled, two nobz will rise to the occasion (and beat each other senseless until one stands the victor and takes control of all the former warbosses command.) As for taking over one continent in an entire system of planets, good for them, that just makes it easier to crash roks and guarantee tyranid kills.
Yes, an entire continent on the central planet of this conflict is a very big deal, as it shows the Tyranids are gaining a large amount of ground.
As for Planets in the sector, every listed known planet, besides Octarius itself has been consumed by the Tyranids.
Orrok - Consumed by Hive Fleet Leviathan.
Ghorala - Consumed by Leviathan.
Derragon - Consumed by Leviathan, after it consumed Ghorala.
Keltor - Consumed by Leviathan, after it consumed Ghorala.
It really does look as if Leviathan has the upper hand at the moment. That can all change of course; the tendril attacking the system was almost completely wiped on whilst advancing on Ghorala, but their victory on that world allowed the fleet to be completely reborn.
Octavius is probably going to go the way of Armageddon; an endless meat grinder.
It's worth noting there though that an endless meat grinder does not automatically guarantee giant super-Orks. Sure, if the same Orks spend the next fifty years fighting the Tyranids, then yes we'll have real monsters on our hands. On the other hands, if casualties are staggering then each new battle is going to be comprised of new, regular Orks. The survivors will be terrifying, but given the nature of Tyranid/Ork warfare there aren't likely to be many long term survivors. Each side will just send in an endless supply of fresh troops.
The Imperial Guard when led by a competent commander.
Power armor or not, the firepower the Imperial Guard has at its disposal > an Astartes strike force. The main crapshoot is getting a commander who can utilize it effectively.
danp164 wrote: Your all thinking too small, Space Marines have tactics specifically designed to combat nid infestations and necron tomb worlds.
I believe they refer to it as "Orbital Lance Strikes, hooray for Orbital Lance Strikes" for when surgical application of force fails and only wholesale application of ungodly firepower will do.
In all seriousness the hardest foe for Space Marines are usually chaos cults, whereas space marines are trained in light infantry tactics, guerrilla warfare and infiltration, they still aren't ideally suited tot he task, and lets not forget most cultists, especially higher up, have taken serious measure to protect themselves from even being discovered.
The moral of the story, you cannot claim military superiority over a force that's more than willing to annihilate the planet your standing on, you can however send them away, thinking your dead and the threat is over.
Other that cultists I'd say the biggest foe to Astartes is the administratum.
A Space Marine chapter does not have enough ships to combat a hive fleet. Necrons have surface to space capabilities with it's pylons. To destroy a tombworld a chapter sacrificed itself while several others helped in the fight.
Cultists usually aren't a Space Marine problem. Rooting out cultists is Arbite territory. A Space Marine wandering around a planet is usually a waste of resources. When a cultist uprising happens, then all bets are off. Space Marines tear through cultists like butter though a turbine. A librarian would figure out whats up in a matter of seconds if a cult tried to hide in front of him.
I'd say the hardest thing Space Marines fight is.. everything that there up against. I mean think about it, Space marines are crazy super humans. They get sent to fight things for a reason: theres so hard that normal men couldn't fight them,plus the fact that space marines, although ''super'', are still human and still die a lot when you really look at things. an example is this; a guardsmen vs a traider guardsmen is just like an Imperial marine vs a chaos marine.. that and also aliens(or anything for that matter) that humans havent reallly been in cantact with untill the space marines fight it.
That's a simple one. Personality, the marines must fight the dreaded forces of constant ubiquity with vain attempts to prove they are different than other chapters... sadly this enemy beats them everytime and they are forced to be seen a MEQ rather than Commander Boreal of the Blood Ravens.
Or, nothing like either of those factions. Orks are sorta endless due to bad writing, but they are not fanatical in any way, shape or form. They are fragmented and as likely to fight themselves as anyone else.
Or, nothing like either of those factions. Orks are sorta endless due to bad writing, but they are not fanatical in any way, shape or form. They are fragmented and as likely to fight themselves as anyone else.
until word gets out space marines are mixed up in a fight then every ork and nob will go out of their way to prove they can kill em. All it takes is one arrogant guy like you to turn a more or less pacified situation and antagonize the most trollish race in all of 40k and give it no reason not to keep coming at you.
*Shrug* not a good idea my friend not a good one at all. Were it not for things like 11,000 active black templars crusading all over the place you might not even have a Planet Armageddon.
danp164 wrote: Your all thinking too small, Space Marines have tactics specifically designed to combat nid infestations and necron tomb worlds.
I believe they refer to it as "Orbital Lance Strikes, hooray for Orbital Lance Strikes" for when surgical application of force fails and only wholesale application of ungodly firepower will do.
In all seriousness the hardest foe for Space Marines are usually chaos cults, whereas space marines are trained in light infantry tactics, guerrilla warfare and infiltration, they still aren't ideally suited tot he task, and lets not forget most cultists, especially higher up, have taken serious measure to protect themselves from even being discovered.
The moral of the story, you cannot claim military superiority over a force that's more than willing to annihilate the planet your standing on, you can however send them away, thinking your dead and the threat is over.
Other that cultists I'd say the biggest foe to Astartes is the administratum.
A Space Marine chapter does not have enough ships to combat a hive fleet. Necrons have surface to space capabilities with it's pylons. To destroy a tombworld a chapter sacrificed itself while several others helped in the fight.
Cultists usually aren't a Space Marine problem. Rooting out cultists is Arbite territory. A Space Marine wandering around a planet is usually a waste of resources. When a cultist uprising happens, then all bets are off. Space Marines tear through cultists like butter though a turbine. A librarian would figure out whats up in a matter of seconds if a cult tried to hide in front of him.
Ok, your changing the original point away from ground combat to space combat to suit a point of view, fair enough.
No a single SM chapter does not have enough fire support to take on a full sized hive fleet. They never deploy a single chapter to take on a full fleet unless its a delaying tactic, they deploy entire BATTLEGROUPS of imperial navy with space marine support from MULTIPLE chapters. Necrons vary from tombworld to tombworld when it comes to strength and disposition of forces. But again this is a threat generally assigned to a combined FLEET with assigned Astartes ground assets. The point I'm trying to make here is space marines don't generally do space fighting that doesn't involve boarding actions, that;s why they have the imperial navy... that's kind of the point of the imperial navy.
So if were done attempting to fire space marines out of cannons at enemy space ships, lets get back to what their normally deployed to. Fast response take and hold ground missions, Both Necrons and tyranids react PHENOMENALLY slowly to space marine incursions. Space marines deployed in such a way either attack a central tomb nexus directly (Necrons) or target large synapse structures (Tyranids) to send the hive into dissaray. In either case once that has been accomplished their job is done, the clean up jobs its a guardsmen job.
Planetary insurection IS something Marines are deployed to deal with, and they are crap at it. organised chaos cults, the higher ranks are never on show, so after the jobs done the infestation can reoccur, Disorganised cults have no centeralised command structure to target , leaving space marines ground pounding till the jobs done, which they can;t guarantee.
And no, a Librarian cannot simply "Sense a disturbance in the force" when he;s on a planet and immediately know where the enemy is and more importantly WHO and HOW MANY it is. Its not an all purpose "Reveal All Chaos" button.
I think you're confusing Orks with Tyranids. Orks are actually well-written.
Can't agree.
Orks are one of my favorite armies in the game. SO much fun and creativity to be had.
But they're ludicrously stupid, and horridly written. Their entire society makes no sense, and could never actually function. The only reason that doesn't matter, is because it doesn't matter. People enjoy the Orks because they are ridiculous.
However, the part of Ork fluff that sticks out and I refer to as bad writing, was when they transitioned into infinitely reproducing space fungus. The concept was so poorly thought out, and took away much of what made the Orks fun and cool. They were always just a galactic pain in the ass back in the day, and that was part of their appeal. Armies of Orks back in 2nd Edition and Rogue Trader were whimsically amusing, and self destructed half of the time, to the delight of everyone playing.
At some point, Games Workshop tried up ratchet up the GRIMDARK, and everything became a contest of one-upsmanship to be the biggest threat to the galaxy. Instead of being the rambunctious neighbors you could never quite get rid of, suddenly the Orks were some all encompassing threat on par with the Tyranids. What made the Tyranids so ominous when they were first consolidated into a codex (2nd Edition) was that they were the game's first "These guys are going to eat everybody" race. Now, pretty much all of the antagonist armies have been escalated to "going to destroy everybody" status, and, well that saps flavor out of the game. Heck, the Necrons just went from creepy, mysterious evil Egyptian Terminatorss to "going to end life as we know it" status a few months ago. If I were a Dark Eldar player, I'd feel pretty left out. They finally got a new Codex, but they're still scrubs in the bigger picture.
I think you're confusing Orks with Tyranids. Orks are actually well-written.
Can't agree.
Orks are one of my favorite armies in the game. SO much fun and creativity to be had.
But they're ludicrously stupid, and horridly written. Their entire society makes no sense, and could never actually function. The only reason that doesn't matter, is because it doesn't matter. People enjoy the Orks because they are ridiculous.
However, the part of Ork fluff that sticks out and I refer to as bad writing, was when they transitioned into infinitely reproducing space fungus. The concept was so poorly thought out, and took away much of what made the Orks fun and cool. They were always just a galactic pain in the ass back in the day, and that was part of their appeal. Armies of Orks back in 2nd Edition and Rogue Trader were whimsically amusing, and self destructed half of the time, to the delight of everyone playing.
At some point, Games Workshop tried up ratchet up the GRIMDARK, and everything became a contest of one-upsmanship to be the biggest threat to the galaxy. Instead of being the rambunctious neighbors you could never quite get rid of, suddenly the Orks were some all encompassing threat on par with the Tyranids. What made the Tyranids so ominous when they were first consolidated into a codex (2nd Edition) was that they were the game's first "These guys are going to eat everybody" race. Now, pretty much all of the antagonist armies have been escalated to "going to destroy everybody" status, and, well that saps flavor out of the game. Heck, the Necrons just went from creepy, mysterious evil Egyptian Terminators to "going to end life as we know it" status a few months ago. If I were a Dark Eldar player, I'd feel pretty left out. They finally got a new Codex, but they're still scrubs in the bigger picture.
so even though they've had that fluff for nearly 15 years longer than the orginal concept of orks lasted you say it's horribly written? Who cares how they reproduce that is still the ultimate truth orks are a feverish lot of childish morons with the strength of 10 apes on steroids. They have always had more numbers than everyone because they represent the savage races out in the world today in a stark contrast to the kindgoms of britian. I.E> Huns v Britiania.
Nids have been around since 2nd ed and they escalated just as much as any other race. Having been given a PURPOSE to attack due to the Astronomicon. They are still cutuhulian in their approach.
And... i don't know what you are even talking about with Necrons i played them before they EVEN HAD A CODEX and their whole goal was to destroy all live even back then... the last edition codex's main quote even states this. You are simply inferring Matt Ward's highlighting of their eqyptian culture is somehow unmerited? Explain the necron Lord model (oldest school) explain their runes, explain the Monolith or either original fluff? They have become more cartoony if anything to me.
Ultimately I think you are splitting hairs the souls of these armies never changed and 40k wasn't about "1 race being better" it was that all races were major players in the galaxy even the dark eldar and tau of course these races didn't exist at the time these editions where made. The overall quote of 40k was "In the grime darkness of the 41 millennium there is only war." extends back further than i can remember and I want to say it has been in existence since the invention of the game honestly. So orks grow from fungus, why is that any worse writing than a magical star child born from a whole bunch of mystics rituallistically killing themselves in synchronization in order to create the emperor the sheer logistics of this would seem nearly impossible i might add...
I think you want to pick on orks cause you personally don't like aspects to them anymore and have no founding or reasons other than that simple fact. I politely say Orks are not written badly and to me come of as perhaps the most identifiable IP in all of 40k, biasness aside the way an ork will act is always predicted by 40k fanatics ... but then you get curve balls like necron and Blood angel alliances against nids...
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:so even though they've had that fluff for nearly 15 years longer than the orginal concept of orks lasted you say it's horribly written?
I'm sorry, does bad writing have an expiration date at which point it becomes good writing?
Nids have been around since 2nd ed and they escalated just as much as any other race.
Wrong. They started at 10. Going to eat everything. Everyone else has just been slowly escalated towards 10 as well. Orks are like an 8.5, where they used to be a 5. In the old days, if you got a ton of them worked up, and a really good warlord came around, they would smash stuff up for a while, before eventually being defeated. Now, there are dozens of major warlords, sector spanning Waaaaaaghs, etc.
And... i don't know what you are even talking about with Necrons i played them before they EVEN HAD A CODEX and their whole goal was to destroy all live even back then...
Where did I say they did anything different? Good lord, try to keep up. Do less typing, and more reading. And I guarantee I had Necron models before you did. The bottom line is, their fluff was completely revamped. The Necrons were mysterious, but fairly rare in the Imperium. Now, suddenly there are potentially trillions of them. Went from a 5 to a 10 in the space of an instant.
You are simply inferring Matt Ward's highlighting of their eqyptian culture is somehow unmerited?
No. And I feel like I'd hurt my brain trying to slow enough of its functions down to try and figure out how you came to that conclusion.
So orks grow from fungus,
They've been fungus for a long time. The transition into the "Kill us, and we *poof* into dozens more little Ork spores" was the stupid part. It made them lame. Suddenly, killing Orks wasn't about facing down a horde of lunatics in cannon-covered jalopies, but instead an annoying extermination process where Orks were like some kind of pesky mold you could never quite get rid of in your bathroom. But you're missing the point. And, honestly, given that you've referred to Orks in the first person plural, I'm not surprised. It wasn't the Orks themselves that I have a problem with. Like I said, it is one of my favorite armies. I played Orcs back when I was a fantasy player, and I even enjoyed Gorkamorka despite the fact that it was rather poorly made, and kinda dumb.
I think you want to pick on orks cause you personally don't like aspects to them anymore and have no founding or reasons other than that simple fact.
Don't do too much thinking. It doesn't suit you. I said very clearly what I don't like about Orks, so there's no need for you to do much inference. If you think the ratcheting up to full grimdark is fine, that's cool. Fanboys typically enjoy when their favorite race gets made stronger in the fluff. Me, I look at it with a more even keel. I liked the way the Orks used to be. I didn't like that Games Workshop felt the need to make them some kind of apocalyptic threat. It changed the basic essence of their fluff. The Orks were supposed to be the comic relief for the grimdark.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Their entire society makes no sense, and could never actually function.
Aside from "I'm pulling nothing out of ass", why not? You're conflating "I'm whiny and remember the old lore as if it was written by god on stone tablets" with "the new lore is poorly written".
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The concept was so poorly thought out, and took away much of what made the Orks fun and cool.
What the feth are you smoking? That's part of what makes Orks awesome! This is not poorly thought out, it's one of the better bits of Ork fluff. Older Ork lore, now THAT was poorly written. The new Ork lore is far deeper than the old stuff, which was so stupidly incoherent that it was nothing more than a joke army, never to be taken seriously. A joke, nothing more-- that's all it ever amounted to. It was dumb, it was shallow, it was flimsy, it was one-dimensional, and Orks as a faction from a literary standpoint are far better off as they are now.
Orks still have humor from our perspective, but they're far deeper and better defined than before when you think about them in their own viewpoint. Their biology makes sense given the way they think, and their society makes sense given the way their bodies work. Their reproduction methods before were very ill-fitting, having them lose all lust for battle and go off to mate? That does't really make any sense given the way the rest of Ork society works. But Orks reproducing through spores they shed throughout their entire lives, and especially when dying? See, THAT makes sense, THAT fits in with the way Ork society is written, especially when combined with Orks getting bigger the more they fight. The violence, constant brutality, death, and the focus on battle almost to the exclusion of all other things makes perfect sense when you realize that this is basically not only their method of reproduction, but also their method of worshiping their gods.
Out of all the factions, Orks have received by far the best lore evolution in 40k.
Suddenly, killing Orks wasn't about facing down a horde of lunatics in cannon-covered jalopies
You don't know anything about Orks if this is the way you think they are.
Killing orks is STILL facing down a horde of raging technobarbarians in gun-covered monster trucks. In fact, now they're far scarier-- Orks are actually far tougher, biologically, than they were in the old fluff, as well as more skilled in combat. So not only are they the raging, never-ending technobarbarians at the gate, covered in more guns than good sense, they're nigh-unkillable raging, never-ending technobarbarians at the gate, covered in far too many REALLY BIG guns that lesser races would have problems just standing still while firing, nevermind firing without injury.
Orks went from "a joke race that nobody takes seriously and just laughs off" to "the badass hordes of techno-barbarians that you will NEVER get rid of". It was a definite upgrade.
I think CSM are the biggest threat to the SM (Awaiting butt hurt in 3...2...1...)
My reason for this is simple, they are the enemy within, they are the ones who know what the space marines are capable of and hence know where to target them weakest, they are the ones who round up parts of the imperium who have a slight doubt on the emperor and will invest in that thought until it becomes a hatred for him.
Now there are parts where the Imperium try to cover up and say that they have it under control, but if they did would there be space marines that would turn there backs on the emperor? and I can further state that those parts have made it worse for themselves by branding certain chapters "Traitors" (an example of this are the soul drinkers) so if they did have this "infestation" under control do you really think chaos would still breed into reality?
This is just my opinion, but the CSM are the most threatening to the space marines...
Melissia wrote: In fact, now they're far scarier-- Orks are actually far tougher, biologically, than they were in the old fluff, as well as more skilled in combat.
They're not scary. They're just stupid.
The comedy was what made Orks great, not that they were tough, or scary, or intimidating.
If you feel otherwise, you're entitled to that opinion.
Melissia wrote:What the feth are you smoking? .
As usual, you produce nothing intelligent, but are ready with the insults. I always forget how lovely the 40K online world's lamest troll is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
King Pariah wrote: Stop feeding Vet Sarge, he always pulls shenanigans like this.
What, present an opinion and have to deal with the ravings of trolls arguing at a 4th grade level?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Heck, the Necrons just went from creepy, mysterious evil Egyptian Terminatorss to "going to end life as we know it" status a few months ago
That is the exact opposite of what happened. Necrons went from this monolithic, unstoppable threat to all living things, to just being a bunch of disparate groups of metal aliens with their own diverse ambitions and agendas. Sure, they are more common now, but considering some of them can now be negotiated with or be counted on to act with some degree of civility, they are no more dangerous than the Dark Eldar you disparage.
I'd say Dark Eldar. Why? Because of all the races, they pretty much strictly ambush people. While most everything else marches into the meat grinder, Deldar are like "lol no, we're going to knife you in the back, then disappear only to do it again later. Oh and good luck following us".
Fighting an opponent like that seems much harder than playing who's got the biggest gun/greenest skin/longest claw/worst fluff and all that.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: I'm sorry, does bad writing have an expiration date at which point it becomes good writing?
Dodging the point, our fluff to your opinion is badly written and one could easily say any fluff is. A race which thrives on war but is killed easily is actually a much worse form of writing because it makes no logical sense if the only thing an ork wants to do is fight and the mysterious Ork Female is never spoken of nor their mating rituals. They must have given birth in huge liters then which sounds even more ridiculous than killing this xeno allows it to shed spores and can produce up to 12 cocoons which produce various orkinoids. expiration date has nothing to do with what is the longer standing fluff but excellent job again, dodging.
Wrong. They started at 10. Going to eat everything. Everyone else has just been slowly escalated towards 10 as well. Orks are like an 8.5, where they used to be a 5. In the old days, if you got a ton of them worked up, and a really good warlord came around, they would smash stuff up for a while, before eventually being defeated. Now, there are dozens of major warlords, sector spanning Waaaaaaghs, etc.
Support your references then with an old school nid codex or please shut it because some of us have read them and back in the day they were not without number they had to rely on genestealer cults to wear down imperial defenses and have sleeper agents within imperial strongholds. they didn't spell the end of entire world though they easily could it required a lack of supervision and improper defenses till THE SPACE MARINES came down and screwed up the nids. If you should be mad about any races changes in fluff it would be nids but you know why you don't? because they only change them and remove stupid things as they go... it's known as codex creep everyone gets it.
Where did I say they did anything different? Good lord, try to keep up. Do less typing, and more reading. And I guarantee I had Necron models before you did. The bottom line is, their fluff was completely revamped. The Necrons were mysterious, but fairly rare in the Imperium. Now, suddenly there are potentially trillions of them. Went from a 5 to a 10 in the space of an instant.
Your exact words were " Heck, the Necrons just went from creepy, mysterious evil Egyptian Terminatorss to "going to end life as we know it" status a few months ago. If I were a Dark Eldar player, I'd feel pretty left out. They finally got a new Codex, but they're still scrubs in the bigger picture." which infers a change from Egyptian to a transition to world enders. To prove you are not only lying about how well you knew necron fluff let me go ahead and read a few fluff statements which never changed with your unwarranted hate of the revamp.
(4th edition Necron Codex: Back cover)
That man is beset at all quarters by traitors, mutants, and fiends is self-evident. But in truth none of these evils shall be our Undoing. When the end comes it will not be at the hand of any mortal being of this or any other realm: death will come at the hands of the ancients, those who determined our fate aeons before we stood erect upon the holy ground of Terra and gazed up into the starry night.
I could site at least 5 other references off the top of my head but your are not worth the efforts to prove how wrong you are. Also I highly doubt you had necrons before me if anything you may have had the models at the same time but I was into 40 k back in early 1995 while they were still an unofficial army and more of gimmick race like genestealer cults ect. I remember the lawn chairs of doom the very eqypitian looking cron lord and the clunky immortals. My point to you is the changes that took place with the necron are minor at best within the present theme of 40k infact the main ones deal with their history which no one but the eldar knows anyway (C'tan, when their kingdom began, ect) very little changed other than their apparent alliance with blood angels which was perhaps the only thing that was a major disconnect from them as a 'mysterious threat'
No. And I feel like I'd hurt my brain trying to slow enough of its functions down to try and figure out how you came to that conclusion.
based off your whining about their changes. Nothing other than their origins changed their doom of the entire universe mentality has remained pretty well unchanged since their initial codex... but good job trying to once again dodge and disguising it as an insult. Bravo.
They've been fungus for a long time. The transition into the "Kill us, and we *poof* into dozens more little Ork spores" was the stupid part. It made them lame. Suddenly, killing Orks wasn't about facing down a horde of lunatics in cannon-covered jalopies, but instead an annoying extermination process where Orks were like some kind of pesky mold you could never quite get rid of in your bathroom. But you're missing the point. And, honestly, given that you've referred to Orks in the first person plural, I'm not surprised. It wasn't the Orks themselves that I have a problem with. Like I said, it is one of my favorite armies. I played Orcs back when I was a fantasy player, and I even enjoyed Gorkamorka despite the fact that it was rather poorly made, and kinda dumb.
So hilariously enough you keep backhanding insults as though they are explanations and you wonder why people have a hard time following you/ caring what you say? Shocking. go ahead and look at my previous statement about the ork withstanding fluff outliving your old-school renditions of them. To me as well as probably the vast majority of current ork players our current explanations and fluff make us feel sufficiently alien and grim dark rather than your punchline.
Don't do too much thinking. It doesn't suit you. I said very clearly what I don't like about Orks, so there's no need for you to do much inference. If you think the ratcheting up to full grimdark is fine, that's cool. Fanboys typically enjoy when their favorite race gets made stronger in the fluff. Me, I look at it with a more even keel. I liked the way the Orks used to be. I didn't like that Games Workshop felt the need to make them some kind of apocalyptic threat. It changed the basic essence of their fluff. The Orks were supposed to be the comic relief for the grimdark.
clearly you are a sad person to hold onto fluff over 20 years old man... you need to let and accept that orks were designed to be the foreign invaders and the main reason the imperium of man is so wracked by war because it has to send it's supplies all over the galaxy on a daily basis. You are coming off to me as a spoiled child wanting to bitch about things that don't even impact you nor do you understand what the vast majority of ork players want. We enjoy good laughs when we are the ones laughing we could care less how you see it, which is exactly how I feel about you also on a personal level. If GW listened to you they would have been bankrupt by now.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: They're not scary. They're just stupid.
Still nothing better to do with you time i see, sad that this is how you get your rocks off. just gtfo already please.
If you feel otherwise, you're entitled to that opinion.
Which we will gladly share with you, and offer you our opinions of you as well for trolling
As usual, you produce nothing intelligent, but are ready with the insults. I always forget how lovely the 40K online world's lamest troll is.
aren't you just sorely missed at 4chan ?
What, present an opinion and have to deal with the ravings of trolls arguing at a 4th grade level?
You are merely highlighting the point for me beautifully Do us a favor and since it's obvious you haven't read an ork codex since 2nd edition please politely share your nauseating opinions with someone who would care to listen to you prattle on about the days of VHS and mix-tapes, meanwhile we are going to talk about something in the last 2 decades okay old timer?
Anyway, moving onto matters far more worth my time I wouldn't say orks are by any means something marines have a problem dealing with on a day by day basis due to the fact the battle doctrines of the Imperial guard keep them in decent enough check. they need to mobilize en mass during orkish Waaaghs but otherwise nothing too extreme.
Nids I concur being an issue because they are meticulous about devouring entire planets and once they gain momentum most chapters resign themselves to a fallback strategy to face them on a new battlefront their only priority is to protect imperial citizens.
Cron do run a disastrously efficient attack most continuously than either orks or nids i'd say but they attack less frequently so it's hard to judge but based on the criteria of the OP I would say Cron hold a decent candle to your answer.
Tau were reported as infuriating to fight in previous codexes losing titans and many battle brothers at this time the Waaagh of dakka had been more effective than imperial attacks on their worlds so the IOM doesn't waste time with them until they can dedicate overwhelming power (which won't be anytime soon due to the galactic condition)
Eldar and dark eldar are by far the best pilots in 40k in accordance with fluff, mobile and cunning with confusing technology to create ghost signatures. the typical encounter with eldar i woudl have to imagine is hellishly aggravating. once a ground war is declared though... far less so again according to fluff however.
If anything I would still have to say Chaos, it isn't never minor incursions with chaos and primarily dealing with corruption leads to further corruption as far as chaos and demons are concerned. Its still the ever present threat that could arrise within any imperial citizen or champion of chapters nothing is too sacred to be immune to it's touch even grey knights if you want to believe mr. ward. So I would way Chaos is the ultimate challenge of a Space marine chapter, followed by Cron and nids and then any other race based off circumstances. Again things like orks can be some of the VERY worst but only once a proper waaagh is declared.
Watch, Veteran Sergeant is going to come back saying something like "you're not a nobel prize winner so your argument is invalid. Thus you can't argue with me." just like he did on a previous thread or two several months back.
King Pariah wrote: Watch, Veteran Sergeant is going to come back saying something like "you're not a nobel prize winner so your argument is invalid. Thus you can't argue with me." just like he did on a previous thread or two several months back.
I'd expect nothing less from him, Ha I barely know the guy and i can tell what type of sad person he already is. Thanks for the warning though all i needed was to voice my thoughts and tell him there is a reason he is stirring gak up and that's because he's still hungry after spewing so much of it out.
I think nids and orks because both are basically numberless if an ork can survive the battle he becomes an even bigger threat but i think nids are the biggest because orks have infighting also the nids are the most adadptable race and they always learn and each group has the knowledge of every single other nid that has ever been.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also i am not supporting Veteran Sergeant but he actually did more than call people stupid he gave valid points if anything you guys are being hypocritical because you just pass every comment of his off as calling you dumb and you must not really read them because he does not just insult you guys.
@wolf It's true, he does put up valid points, HOWEVER, if you take the time to look at past posts, you'll see he has a tendency of calling everyone who doesn't agree with his opinion idiots. So even when he is putting up a valid point, if he's also calling others idiots at the same time, should he be tolerated? It seems to be practically habitual with him to do this. Mind you, he really did say not too long ago something along the lines of, "you're not a nobel prize winner so your argument is invalid. Thus you can't argue with me."
But you're missing the point. And, honestly, given that you've referred to Orks in the first person plural, I'm not surprised.
No i fully understand that he insults everybody with an opinion different then his what i was saying is it seems as if you guys were putting it off as if the only thing he was doing was insulting andnot making valid points.
He has kind of exhausted our patience with this repetitive behavior. Sort of hard not to brush off his valid points when it's interlaced with insults. And I think it's best not to group all of us as hypocritical vengeful jerks. A couple people were having a legitimate discussion with him (until he starts insulting others, specifically the ones he is having the discussions with).
King Pariah wrote: He has kind of exhausted our patience with this repetitive behavior. Sort of hard not to brush off his valid points when it's interlaced with insults. And I think it's best not to group all of us as hypocritical vengeful jerks. A couple people were having a legitimate discussion with him (until he starts insulting others, specifically the ones he is having the discussions with).
Okay well i just have not had any experiences at all with him before this.
King Pariah wrote: He has kind of exhausted our patience with this repetitive behavior. Sort of hard not to brush off his valid points when it's interlaced with insults. And I think it's best not to group all of us as hypocritical vengeful jerks. A couple people were having a legitimate discussion with him (until he starts insulting others, specifically the ones he is having the discussions with).
Okay well i just have not had any experiences at all with him before this.
I normally will never chew someone out for their opinions. But when I do they've had it coming /meme.
In all seriousness i completely understand missing a previous incarnation of orks. This however isn't an undeniable truth nor is it a widely accepted viewpoint the way vet used his sarcasm and insults these personal points he was declaring made other people who actually play orks or enjoy our current fluff are depicted as dung flinging 4th graders. That is the point of a personal opinion you can't prove it's right, you can say it and move on more or less unless you find others wanting to talk about it.
Vet has no ill will from me, but he needed a public spanking for his actions which i gladly offered. I am not a personal fan of the rendition of 40k which is less grim dark and enjoy a more galactic threat level of orks but the idea that in 40k all the races 'were more humble' is something i don't recall from my past with 40k in the least. It was always that planets hung in the balance of each battle. You can only stay civil with someone so long regardless of their points being valid ones or not.
You cannot force people to think the same way as you nor can your force a child to or a man for that matter to do something if they don't want to. Wielding insults is not the way to work around this truth it is rational discussion and diplomacy not belitting the things the other side holds dear and then discrediting their opinions. Why do you think religion, politics and government are the topics most people steer away from? because it takes the patience and eloquence of a rare breed to successfully negotiate on these topics.
Atheist think bringing evidence will dispell faith and the faith think that downright resistance to these views are the best way to handle issues. They are not
My apologizes if you thought I was cruel, but i will not take back the things I said i feel he earned every statement attacking the group as a whole the way he did. A shame too, because I've agreed with a lot of his points in the past. *Shrug* such is the way of debates though
My problem with orks if they are "Beat" (I only put " " in because Orks never lose a battle ) in battle is that once that happens Imperial garrisons will declare a long purge, such as lots of PDF of the system get there flamers out and burn all the spores, hence getting rid of the infestation...
Nids, to me, I like the fluff and it makes sense and fits in with the GRIMDARK theme but I Dont like the "and nothing can stop them ever" adage that they put down I believe that there is a way to stop them or brutally damage them (such as Dawn of war II when the Blood ravens make a weapon to poison the hive mind, and another example is when kaptin badrukk decided to harm the Norn queen...and he is a pirate ork...)
And yes the story of how the Iron warriors home world fell really irritated me...
To me the ones the SM will always find hardest to fight is Chaos Space Marines mainly because they are the enemy within and not many know when they strike or when a Battle Brother will turn there back on the emperor in the middle of a warzone and kill his once fellow battle brothers from within...
happygolucky wrote: My problem with orks if they are "Beat" (I only put " " in because Orks never lose a battle ) in battle is that once that happens Imperial garrisons will declare a long purge, such as lots of PDF of the system get there flamers out and burn all the spores, hence getting rid of the infestation...
Nids, to me, I like the fluff and it makes sense and fits in with the GRIMDARK theme but I Dont like the "and nothing can stop them ever" adage that they put down I believe that there is a way to stop them or brutally damage them (such as Dawn of war II when the Blood ravens make a weapon to poison the hive mind, and another example is when kaptin badrukk decided to harm the Norn queen...and he is a pirate ork...)
And yes the story of how the Iron warriors home world fell really irritated me...
To me the ones the SM will always find hardest to fight is Chaos Space Marines mainly because they are the enemy within and not many know when they strike or when a Battle Brother will turn there back on the emperor in the middle of a warzone and kill his once fellow battle brothers from within...
they've stated in rogue trader that flamers do not remove the spores well enough the only way to "Purge" ork spores is nothing short of Exterminatus that is straight from our codex.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: they've stated in rogue trader that flamers do not remove the spores well enough the only way to "Purge" ork spores is nothing short of Exterminatus that is straight from our codex.
Pulling over the top lines from codices is fun.
None are safe from the predations of the Tyranids and if the tide cannot be held back, if the warriing civilisations do not unite against them, the engire galaxy is doomed.
I mean, it's written, black and white, that the only way to stop the Tyranids is for the Eldar, Dark Eldar, the IoM, Necrons, Orks, Tau and the forces of Chaos to all drop their squabbling and unite against them.
Which basically means that the galaxy is doomed to be a big bowel movement.
Omegus wrote: That is the exact opposite of what happened. Necrons went from this monolithic, unstoppable threat to all living things, to just being a bunch of disparate groups of metal aliens with their own diverse ambitions and agendas. Sure, they are more common now, but considering some of them can now be negotiated with or be counted on to act with some degree of civility, they are no more dangerous than the Dark Eldar you disparage.
Only some Necrons endeavor towards killing every other faction now, some are entirely willing to barter or negotiate with the lesser races, and honestly in a few ways they are less of an "evil threat" than the Imperium is.
Oldcrons: United, implacable legion of enigmatic machines.
Newcrons: Splintered race of metal men with human minds and goals barring a few exceptions.
Okay, this is actually (in my mind) a very good, and potentially complex question. If the OP is talking which army has the most potential to be the hardest for SM to defeat, it could well be Orks, for as the fluff always say, that if all the Orks actually stopped fighting each other and combined their forces, they would pwn the universe, but they're dumb, so there goes that
When it comes down to Fluff, and what is happening right now (in the 41st Millenium ) Necrons are IMHO pretty hard to defeat, because even in the Fall of Damnos novel, the Space Marines spent that whole time liberating ONE city. Kellenport or sumfin (long time since read it). Even the Cron's CORE unit can destroy a friggin Land Raider! The new Dex has addressed the lack of vehicles, the lack of strategy, the completely stupid Phase-Out rule, the lack of personality etc. .But victory depends on how extensive the revivication protocols are, as they dictate the strength of a Tomb World's Army.
Now, if it came down to Tabletop games, I'd be tempted to Troll yooz and say Necron's , but to praise another race beside the Almighty Necrons, I might have to say maybe even other SM type armies like BA or maybe GK, but for non-imperium maybe with all the new models maybe the Great Enemy, i.e. Chaos Space Marines/Chaos Daemons.
P.s. I only just realised that the Necrons, BA and GK were all written by Matt Ward
I think people are seriously underestimating the Dark Elder and Tau.
Dark Elder are a purely offensive army, the 'deep strike and kill their leader' tactic doesn't work because you will teleport 15 meters behind you where your men are being stabbed in the back. You can't attack the DE because they retreat into Webway as soon as they are fineshed. Only once have SM gotten into the Webway and that was because Asdrubal Vect intentionally left the gate unlocked to get rid of his rivals. Space Marines do not suit fighting DE because they are quickly outmanned, outgunned, and outmaneuvered. As soon as the DE have pillaged through a Chapter they will disappear only to reappear, fresh, the next day.
SM and Tau have had very little engagements, side from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. I quote now, codex on my lap "The Crusade fought its way across Dal'yth Prime but was gradually worn down by the Tau untill they found thenmselves stalemated a long way from their own bases. Titans exchanged fire with hovering Manta missile destroyers, Imperial Guard fought hand-to-hand with Kroot mercenaries, and Space Marines learned to respect the courage and skill of the Fire caste." To stop a Crusade consisting of half a dozen chapters and the Imperial Juggernaut is a huge feat. Even having having Space Marines who started the Crusade thinking they were crushing some upstart children to them respecting the Tau as dangerous and powerful warriors takes a lot.
Just saying, don't count them out.
ps: The whole point of 40k is that all of the Races are equally powerful in their ways, there is no point in having one army that can smash every other, or having an army that is little more than a punching bag.
fleet of claw wrote: I think people are seriously underestimating the Dark Elder and Tau.
Dark Elder are a purely offensive army, the 'deep strike and kill their leader' tactic doesn't work because you will teleport 15 meters behind you where your men are being stabbed in the back. You can't attack the DE because they retreat into Webway as soon as they are fineshed. Only once have SM gotten into the Webway and that was because Asdrubal Vect intentionally left the gate unlocked to get rid of his rivals. Space Marines do not suit fighting DE because they are quickly outmanned, outgunned, and outmaneuvered. As soon as the DE have pillaged through a Chapter they will disappear only to reappear, fresh, the next day.
SM and Tau have had very little engagements, side from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. I quote now, codex on my lap "The Crusade fought its way across Dal'yth Prime but was gradually worn down by the Tau untill they found thenmselves stalemated a long way from their own bases. Titans exchanged fire with hovering Manta missile destroyers, Imperial Guard fought hand-to-hand with Kroot mercenaries, and Space Marines learned to respect the courage and skill of the Fire caste." To stop a Crusade consisting of half a dozen chapters and the Imperial Juggernaut is a huge feat. Even having having Space Marines who started the Crusade thinking they were crushing some upstart children to them respecting the Tau as dangerous and powerful warriors takes a lot.
Just saying, don't count them out.
ps: The whole point of 40k is that all of the Races are equally powerful in their ways, there is no point in having one army that can smash every other, or having an army that is little more than a punching bag.
As much as I agree with this statement it is a hard one to really justify since some fluff of some armys (such as tyranids) are in a sense maybe more "overpowering" than others, an example this is Tyranids how once a tendril hits a planert there is no way of stopping it only blunting it but it will always be there and the populace of that sector will be engulf in eternal war, or be devored. my personal opinion is that I hope in the future codex's they will put they will make this staement stand ,such as in the next nid codex they could say a way to combat the Tyranids is to poison the digestion pools or every time a tyrant overlord dies it also hurts the Hive mind and it hurts the Hivemind in a minor manner to help to remake the tyrant to adapt, or as like in dawn of war II the directly poison the Hive mind and warp things also hurts the synapse or warp energy incinerates 'nids such as opening a warp gate to engulf the planet into the warp incinerating the tyranids who are on the planet and the tendril units going into the planet (since 'Nids cannot enter the warp) , like a two edged blade, in a sense of the Tyranids are unstoppable but if you hit in the right place in time then the splinter fleet will retreat towards its main tendril, this would be more hopeful and make this statement stand IMO.
Like i said I agree with your statement, but in some cases with some of the current fluff its quite hard to justify.
The Dark Eldar didn't exactly put up a good fight when Comorragh was attacked by Space Marines, and that was when they had the massively superior numbers and knowledge of the territory.
1068SCP wrote: The Dark Eldar didn't exactly put up a good fight when Comorragh was attacked by Space Marines, and that was when they had the massively superior numbers and knowledge of the territory.
Here is a little extract from the Codex, pages 13-15
Asdrubal Vect hid the mainstay of his forces from the Space Marines. In the Dark Eldar codex it says that Two dozen strike cruisers, bearing hearaldry from the Salamanders, Silver Skulls and Howling Griffons, and the Battle barge Vulkans Wrath, somehow recieved coordinates to the Desaderian portal, which mysteriously been left fully operationalk, its guards slain and its controls locked out so that it could not close.
Hundreds of Voidraven bombers and Razorwing jetfighters desceded upon the strike cruisers. Many were blown out of the sky by roaring broadsides, but they systematically took out the Imperial ships' guns with focused void lance fire and sustained barrages from disintegrator cannons. Even the battle barge Vulkan's Wrath had the majority of its weapons systems rendered useless.
High Archon Kraillach himself led a massed charge against the 500 strong Space Marine force that had established a perimeter in the streets of Commorragh. He cut a path through the disciplined ranks of SM. He killed SM with each thrust of his powered blade, untill his rampage was halted by a "Stray" blast from a Dark Lance.
When the Wyches of the Cult of Strife joined the fight, hundreds of Wyches ran through the SM ranks, and helmets began to roll. Lelith Hesperax lead the charge. Nearby, the patrician Archon Yllithian of the Silent Scream attacked to prove his right to rule. The Space Marines fell back; they had already lost half their number. Lelith paused for barely a second before cutting down Yllithian and his warriors. With their part in Vect's plan played out, Lelith and her Wyches melted away into the mists.
I advise you people to read the codices of every race before you answer questions such as the like of the OP. No offense of course.
The Space Marine forces split under the attackes of the Dark Elder Kabals, no matter how much destruction they caused to Commorragh.
No bias but I think the Dark Elder are perfect to fighting Space Marines
Yes. Armies' effectiveness against Space Marines depends on the circumstances, the available forces, terrain, knowledge of area and tactics, all codices have been made to be able to beat Space Marines, other wise the Imperium wouldn't be under attack so much if the Space Marines were so good.
I say Tyranids are easily the toughest foe, simply because a single Hivefleet is so immense that you'd need to exterminatus countless worlds to stop it. Throw in genestealer cults and rapid evolution and you have a hot mess. The fact that it's sole purpose in life is to eat you also throws in some fun, plus a bio-"fleet" is larger than the entire Imperial Navy.
Chaos always loses and suffers from a villain complex in that, no matter how awesome they are, their plan always fails and they go back to the Eye of Terror.
Necrons are too sleepy to be a threat. While they are awesome and can win, they just don't seem to be enough of them.
Orks are plagued by chronic stupidity and randomness. No matter how many of them there are, they just can't focus on a good war. The only time they're dangerous is when the Space Marines choose to fight them.
The Eldar might be tough, but half the time they're secretly helping you because Chaos is involved somewhere. And when they DO mean to kill you, it's usually for a reason you eventually think is pretty good.
Tau are just opportunistic and good at convincing alien races they are right. Too young to be a threat, but the fact that they're immune to the warp means they face less dangers than Space Marines... being less threatening has its advantages.
Dark Eldar are like Vikings, they come, they pillage, they rape, then they disappear. If you just take the policy of "when they come, don't get involved it'll all be over soon" then these guys wouldn't bother anybody but the people they capture.
Every Codex tries to sell the army to the reader by making them seem overpowered. Somewhere in every codex it will say "[Insert Race Here] Will always win [they are unstoppable in their quest to purge the Galaxy/ other reason]. If the Codex doesn't make an army sound ridiculously powerful, there is little point in collecting them, because lets face it, no one wants to be the guy who is getting shat on every time.
Sure the fluff might seem overpowering, but try and look at potential and past engagements as well.
Xyrael wrote: I say Tyranids are easily the toughest foe, simply because a single Hivefleet is so immense
Yep.
Tyranids are a star-system(s) level threat. Marines are mostly a city-level solution.
It's purely a scale problem there.
Can the average Marine force deal with some splinter pod of 'Nids? Sure. They can even band dozens of chapters together to fight off a hive fleet. But it's far more common for Tyranids to be fighting on the planets-wide scale than Marines.
In the scale of 40k conflict, Marines aren't for wars, they are for battles.
In the scale of 40k conflict, Marines aren't for wars, they are for battles.
Space Marines excel in lightning fast strikes and raids deep into enemy territory, with a set purpose. They normally let the enemy weaken themselves against IG before finishing them off.
In the scale of 40k conflict, Marines aren't for wars, they are for battles.
Space Marines excel in lightning fast strikes and raids deep into enemy territory, with a set purpose. They normally let the enemy weaken themselves against IG before finishing them off.
Again, realistically, barring plot armor, anything with even meager airborne capabilities, artillery, and some numbers will prove an unbeatable opponent for a Space Marine chapter, as they lack so many components and being of such small size are very easily encircled. Doesn't matter who/what it is, it's all a question of scale. Realistically, the entirety of the Astartes would be more suited for a war on a scale of WW2's eastern front. Their numbers really make them quite hilariously easy to deal with if you look at them in any realistic light and don't just assume they auto-win through sheer awesome-power.
Melissia wrote: I don't think the equal chances is necessarily right.
Whether an army would win over another army is basically entirely situational.
Yeeeaaaah... I think that's almost the very definition of equal chance. Then again, from looking at many of your other posts, I believe you are being contrary, just for the sake of being contrary. I could be wrong, though.
Melissia isn't contrary for the sake of being contrary; she's contrary for the sake of being biased against Space Marines.
Anyway, "it's situational" is and always will be a semantics cop-out. When you compare two combatants you don't compare them literally as "who would win in a fight", you compare them as who would win on average by comparing their strengths and their weaknesses. It's much easier to have a logical discussion about averages than it is specifically about a hypothetical fight.
A Commisar can defeat a Space Marine in mortal kombat every now and again, and/or depending on the circumstances. On average, though, a Space Marine would kick a Commisar's ass.
Space Marines might lose against an army of Tau, depending on the circumstances, but on average, they would have an easier time kicking a Tau army's ass than they would defeating, say, a Tyranid splinter-fleet.
Worst enemy in combat? Anyone the writer has a hard on for. I could care less.
In general? The Ecclesiarchy.
Space marines are probably the closest thing the Imperium has left of Empy's original vision and the Ecclesiarchy completely b*ttraped Empy's life's work.
If I were a space marine I'd loath the Imperial church beyond anything Chaos or the Xenos could throw at me.
Melissia wrote: Living Saints, the founding of the Sisters of Battle, as well as the lead up to Sebastian Thor's reforms all come to mind as examples.
Whether or not he likes the Ecclesiarchy is debatable, but he is very willing to use it for his own ends.
I never did understand how the whole Saint business worked.
As to the whole Age of Apostasy, Empy's supposed intervention could be considered to be more of a disapproval of Vandire's reign rather than an active endorsement of the church. That's how I interpret it anyway.
Eldar/Chaos uses orks for their own ends, doesn't mean they're happy to have them around.
The Ecclesiarchy is, by it's very nature, a perversion of the Emperor's ideals. Though, ironically, it may succeed where he failed, keeping the Imperium in one piece.
Void__Dragon wrote: Or you know, the big ass Warp Storm that suddenly came into existence could be a fluke or Tzeentch shenanigans.
Yeah, everyone says "oh, it's Tzeench's plan", or "oh, it's the deciever's plan", or some other nonsense ,but that's really all it is-- nonsense. There's nothing really from GW that suggests that this is the case; it's little more than wishful thinking.
Popenfresh wrote: I never did understand how the whole Saint business worked.
Saints show no evidence of psychic powers (despite what certain chaos fanboys would claim) or warp shenanigans, and every single depiction of them has them be anathema to the forces of chaos and psychic power. What exactly they are, GW intentionally leaves a mystery, but they aren't psykers or warp-constructs.
It's similar to Acts of Faith. They are not psychic in nature nor linked to the warp-- what are they, then? GW offers only a few vague explanations for them, and they don't satisfy everyone, so some people like to make up crap about how they're really psychic powers despite the fact that every single source says otherwise, with not a single exception.
Popenfresh wrote: As to the whole Age of Apostasy, Empy's supposed intervention could be considered to be more of a disapproval of Vandire's reign rather than an active endorsement of the church.
I can see that argument, but he DID approve of the Daughters of the Emperor at any rate-- sending his most trusted servant to have them meet with him personally, and give them visions that would serve to guide the nascent Sisters of Battle in to the future.
At the very least, the Daughters have been more loyal than his Sons.
Popenfresh wrote: The Ecclesiarchy is, by it's very nature, a perversion of the Emperor's ideals.
That depends on how seriously you take the "Imperial Truth" to actually be the Emperor's ideals. Personally, I view the Truth as nothing more than a tool that the Emperor used to try to weaken the forces of Chaos.
Melissia wrote: Yeah, everyone says "oh, it's Tzeench's plan", or "oh, it's the deciever's plan", or some other nonsense ,but that's really all it is-- nonsense. There's nothing really from GW that suggests that this is the case; it's little more than wishful thinking.
Can you provide an official statement from GW on what created the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath then?
That's a rhetorical question. No such statement exists.
What Sebastian Thor thinks created it means exactly nothing in terms of emperical evidence.
Void__Dragon wrote: Can you provide an official statement from GW on what created the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath then?
That's a rhetorical question. No such statement exists.
What Sebastian Thor thinks created it means exactly nothing in terms of emperical evidence.
Actually, it's what the majority of Imperial scholars think, not just Sebastian Thor. There's literally nothing to suggest that Tzeentch did it-- or even that he was capable of doing it.
Horde armies. Orks nids and necrons are really the best. Space marines are not ment for long battles. Their main tactics are hit and run. If they dont destroy the leadership for the orks then they can expect waves upon waves of ork fighters coming at them. Same for nids. Necrons, just have destroy them till they leave you alone. Each one of them can take the space marines hits and hit back. That is something space marines really dont want.
Also chaos. Just because in the end chaos will always be there.
Melissia wrote: Actually, it's what the majority of Imperial scholars think, not just Sebastian Thor. There's literally nothing to suggest that Tzeentch did it-- or even that he was capable of doing it.
Oh? A militantly and mindlessly religious empire have attributed a Warp phenomenon to the Emperor without any evidence to back it up?
You don't say.
And hold on now: You're suggesting that Tzeentch would be incapable of something as fething paltry as a Warp Storm?
lolwut
Aetaos'rau'keres, a "mere" Lord of Change, can create Warp Storms. And in fact, Warp Storms were created by the Chaos Gods throughout the galaxy to impede Astropathy and Imperial Travel in the years leading up to and during the Heresy, notably, this is how the Word Bearers caught the Ultramarines with their pants down at Calth. The Ultramarines had no idea of Horus's treachery.
And hold on now: You're suggesting that Tzeentch would be incapable of something as fething paltry as a Warp Storm?
Ah, but most of those Warp storms don't swallow up entire Imperial fleets. The Chaos Gods obviously couldn't simply destroy Loyalist fleets as they moved through the Warp during the Horus Heresy at will. Something stops them.
Some Warp Storms destroy entire fleets, some blow them entirely off course lightyears away, some trap ships in the Warp entirely.
Warp Storms are not predictable.
Also, the Warp phenomena created apparently by Angron in The Emperor's Gift either destroyed or irrevocably corrupted every Space Wolf ship sent to make distress calls for Titan, as well as entirely masking his own presence in the Materium from even the strongest of seers.
Come on dude, please don't suggest that Tzeentch is incapable of destroying a fleet in the Warp.
BlaxicanX wrote: Hordes are only extremely dangerous if whacking the leader of said horde won't give them the auto-GG. Thus, Orks are disqualified.
That's not necessarily true even.
A horde of Orks with a target to kill won't care much if their leaders are dead. Orks aren't like Tyranids in that regard.
Tell that to the Orks who started mindlessly slaughtering each other even as a Tyranid army was bearing down on them, for literally no reason other than the fact that their Warboss had been slain. See: Kryptman's Gambit for details.
Also, the Warp phenomena created apparently by Angron in The Emperor's Gift either destroyed or irrevocably corrupted every Space Wolf ship sent to make distress calls for Titan, as well as entirely masking his own presence in the Materium from even the strongest of seers.
Come on dude, please don't suggest that Tzeentch is incapable of destroying a fleet in the Warp.
How did the message eventually get through?
I'm not. I'm saying that it's not easy for the Chaos Gods to do, otherwise they'd have have completely won the Heresy with the Emperor facing several Legions with only the Imperial Fists of the Loyalists on Terra.
BlaxicanX wrote:Tell that to the Orks who started mindlessly slaughtering each other even as a Tyranid army was bearing down on them, for literally no reason other than the fact that their Warboss had been slain. See: Kryptman's Gambit for details.
If you're referring to the first planet Leviathan got to in the Octavius Empire, that was because the Tyranids didn't produce a target for the Orks. The whole point was that they hid until they had the numbers to simply overrun the Orks. Orks don't like guerilla warfare as they find it boring. They enjoy enemies they can get to grips with and have a good fight with, not ones who kill a few Boyz and then flee.
I'm not. I'm saying that it's not easy for the Chaos Gods to do, otherwise they'd have have completely won the Heresy with the Emperor facing several Legions with only the Imperial Fists of the Loyalists on Terra.
A single Space Wolf survivor on a single Space Wolf starship, which had been wrecked and possessed.
Interesting.
So because they could not on a whim destroy every loyalist fleet in the galaxy with a galaxy-wide Warp Storm, one could not create a Warp Storm the size of a single star system to destroy a single fleet?
Context is really everything here. Dark Eldar raiders will be a lot worse for them then simple human pirates. A full-scale Waaaagh! and Tyranid hive fleet vs. a Chaos warband? As is true with most things in 40k there is no broad answer.
A single Space Wolf survivor on a single Space Wolf starship, which had been wrecked and possessed.
So because they could not on a whim destroy every loyalist fleet in the galaxy with a galaxy-wide Warp Storm, one could not create a Warp Storm the size of a single star system to destroy a single fleet?
Huh. Good on that survivor.
No, because the Chaos Gods, as far as I know, have never been shown to be able to target a Warp storm at an opponent without people helping them within the Materium. I've never read that they're able to direct Warp storms at their leisure in any background.
If you're referring to the first planet Leviathan got to in the Octavius Empire, that was because the Tyranids didn't produce a target for the Orks. The whole point was that they hid until they had the numbers to simply overrun the Orks. Orks don't like guerilla warfare as they find it boring. They enjoy enemies they can get to grips with and have a good fight with, not ones who kill a few Boyz and then flee.
No, it's specifically stated in the article that as soon as the Warboss was killed, the boys "began in-fighting among each other" which made them "easy prey for the Tyranid swarm".
The asymmetrical warfare the Tyranids were using before the Warboss' death has nothing to do with the Orks behavior after his death.
A single Space Wolf survivor on a single Space Wolf starship, which had been wrecked and possessed.
So because they could not on a whim destroy every loyalist fleet in the galaxy with a galaxy-wide Warp Storm, one could not create a Warp Storm the size of a single star system to destroy a single fleet?
Huh. Good on that survivor.
No, because the Chaos Gods, as far as I know, have never been shown to be able to target a Warp storm at an opponent without people helping them within the Materium. I've never read that they're able to direct Warp storms at their leisure in any background.
They blew up Caliban with a warp storm in a fit of rage.
The asymmetrical warfare the Tyranids were using before the Warboss' death has nothing to do with the Orks behavior after his death.
Yes it does. It affected how the Orks viewed the Tyranids both prior to and after the Warboss' death. The Tyranids didn't portray themselves as a 'proper' fight or as a worthy opponent. Had they consistently done so, the Orks wouldn't have fractured so. They would have lost some leadership, but it would have been unlikely to have led to such infighting.
FinalAnswer wrote:They blew up Caliban with a warp storm in a fit of rage.
After it was already half destroyed if I recall correctly. They also had minions feeding them power on that planet. They couldn't and still can't blow up planets at will.
If you're referring to the first planet Leviathan got to in the Octavius Empire, that was because the Tyranids didn't produce a target for the Orks. The whole point was that they hid until they had the numbers to simply overrun the Orks. Orks don't like guerilla warfare as they find it boring. They enjoy enemies they can get to grips with and have a good fight with, not ones who kill a few Boyz and then flee.
No, it's specifically stated in the article that as soon as the Warboss was killed, the boys "began in-fighting among each other" which made them "easy prey for the Tyranid swarm".
The asymmetrical warfare the Tyranids were using before the Warboss' death has nothing to do with the Orks behavior after his death.
But they had been losing the war before the death of Skarfang. If he hadnt died then the nids would have lost. But he died before that, The nids were using guerilla tactics which morst orks hate. Plus they were smaller then usual, so probably they were not in front of them. this is a campaign setting. We are talking about a battle. The space marines are right in front of them\in the area The orks will probably know about them. If not they will know about them real soon. In the end just takes a charge then it will not matter if the warboss is killed, the orks will be beserk over them. Unlike nids who shall retreat. Orks are indeed a viable enemy agaisnt space marines in BATTLES, or else they wouldnt be the table top game would be completly messed up whenever a warboss died.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: No, because the Chaos Gods, as far as I know, have never been shown to be able to target a Warp storm at an opponent without people helping them within the Materium. I've never read that they're able to direct Warp storms at their leisure in any background.
You know, except for the whole "Creating Warp Storms to disallow accurate clairvoyance, reliable astropathy, and Warp travel throughout the galaxy".
Ferrus Manus notes in Fulgrim that they have to navigate and sail very carefully, having lost ships in the turbulence of the Warp.
This is all ignoring that relative weaklings like Cherubael and that really hard to remember Lord of Change whom I posted before can create Warp Storms at their leisure, against their foes.
And this is all frankly irrelevant, whether a Chaos God created a Warp Storm for the purpose of impeding Vandire or if that was a side-effect they could not have given a gak about means little to nothing. Melissia was using Thor and random scholars' biased and unsupported beliefs as empirical evidence for her point, and I only noted that there are, in fact, other explanations for the origin of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.
The simple fact is, well... they're nids. I'll explain.
You defeat the nids, they grow stronger, unless you completely destroy the corpses.
They win, they don't get weakened by it, they multiply by a lot.
It is a sea. Even a bolter will run out of ammo, and then they're on you.
And worst? The Hive Fleets are gigantic. But these are simply splinters of the main tendril - you're facing less than a hundredth of the entire tyranid war machine, all across the galaxy. The day that the main tendril reaches the galaxy, that is the day you commit exterminatus in space.
You know, except for the whole "Creating Warp Storms to disallow accurate clairvoyance, reliable astropathy, and Warp travel throughout the galaxy".
Ferrus Manus notes in Fulgrim that they have to navigate and sail very carefully, having lost ships in the turbulence of the Warp.
Which is still a lot different to simply destroying large war fleets. The Loyalists were still capable of reaching where they needed to go, it just took longer. Also, at least some of Warp Storms seem to have been created by their mortal servants.
This is all ignoring that relative weaklings like Cherubael and that really hard to remember Lord of Change whom I posted before can create Warp Storms at their leisure, against their foes.
I can't really comment on these having not read about them, although I'd suggest a Daemon in the Materium would be able to affect it differently to more powerful entities locked with in the Warp. For one thing, it would have a different perspective on the events.
Melissia was using Thor and random scholars' biased and unsupported beliefs as empirical evidence for her point, and I only noted that there are, in fact, other explanations for the origin of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.
Void__Dragon wrote: Oh? A militantly and mindlessly religious empire have attributed a Warp phenomenon to the Emperor without any evidence to back it up?
If you think that the Imperium, especially the Inquisition, has never attempted to research the Emperor, ever, then you probably don't care about the lore to begin with.
Not even tzeentch's own servants believe the stuff you're saying, nevermind those in universe that have participated in/have access to thousands of years of reserach on the topic. The Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Malleus in particular, both of whom concern themselves with exactly this topic any time a "Living Saint" entity comes around.
I wouldn't put it past the Inquisition to lie about such events though.
Isn't there an instance where they called exerminatus upon a planet, after it's inhabitants drove off a demon incursion on their own, and blamed it on the Eldar instead?
I'd argue that every enemy other than the Imperial Guard are a problem for Space Marines, since they were an evolution of the Thunder Warriors built to fight the armies of other human warlords.
The Marines wield weapons that work best against lightly armored, densely packed groups of infantry. Their armor and resilience give them huge resilience against the small arms wielded by light infantry. Their tactics rely on their opponents being susceptible to surprise and prone to panic in the face of sudden violence.
No one else in the galaxy is vulnerable to everything in the Astartes arsenal and tactics.
Void__Dragon wrote: Oh? A militantly and mindlessly religious empire have attributed a Warp phenomenon to the Emperor without any evidence to back it up?
If you think that the Imperium, especially the Inquisition, has never attempted to research the Emperor, ever, then you probably don't care about the lore to begin with.
Void__Dragon wrote: Oh? A militantly and mindlessly religious empire have attributed a Warp phenomenon to the Emperor without any evidence to back it up?
If you think that the Imperium, especially the Inquisition, has never attempted to research the Emperor, ever, then you probably don't care about the lore to begin with.
Melissia wrote: If you think that the Imperium, especially the Inquisition, has never attempted to research the Emperor, ever, then you probably don't care about the lore to begin with.
Not even tzeentch's own servants believe the stuff you're saying, nevermind those in universe that have participated in/have access to thousands of years of reserach on the topic. The Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Malleus in particular, both of whom concern themselves with exactly this topic any time a "Living Saint" entity comes around.
lol.
That is what we call a strawman.
Please, by all means, show me what Tzeentch's servants believe concerning the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.
Please, by all means, show me where it is said there is thousands of years of research concerning the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.
Bringing up the Ordo Malleus is interesting, considering their own opinions on the Living Saints and possibly the Sisters of Battle. Namely, that they are Warp-touched, as said on page six of the Witchhunter's codex.
That the Imperium has done research on the Emperor (And at least one Inquisitor has spoken to him) doesn't mean that they have verified that the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, is, in fact, caused by him.
I'm not even necessarily stating you're wrong, only noting that to use it as empirical evidence to prove a point is faulty.
Void__Dragon wrote: "Zahndrekh and Imotekh are the two best examples" =/= "ALL NECRONS ARE LIKE IMOTEKH AND ZAHNDREKH IN STRATEGY AND TACTICS."
That's exactly what it means if the statement is made in regards to my post. I didn't say that all Necrons fight the same way", I said "generally". Thus, trying to argue that there are examples of necrons fighting otherwise is irrelevant to my point.
Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.
No it doesn't.
You're just buttset that Necrons got pwned by horse-riding Mongolians.
Actually it does. In the overlords section of the codex, it also says that overlords have in addition of a stronger and more powerful body, new and profound intelligence unrivaled by many members of the lesser "upstart" races.
Void__Dragon wrote: "Zahndrekh and Imotekh are the two best examples" =/= "ALL NECRONS ARE LIKE IMOTEKH AND ZAHNDREKH IN STRATEGY AND TACTICS."
That's exactly what it means if the statement is made in regards to my post. I didn't say that all Necrons fight the same way", I said "generally". Thus, trying to argue that there are examples of necrons fighting otherwise is irrelevant to my point.
Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.
No it doesn't.
You're just buttset that Necrons got pwned by horse-riding Mongolians.
Actually it does. In the overlords section of the codex, it also says that overlords have in addition of a stronger and more powerful body, new and profound intelligence unrivaled by many members of the lesser "upstart" races.
Necrons. The only guy I have to play right now has them. I'm sick of looking at 'em. Maybe tommorow I'll edit this post to say fluffy bunnies or something else worth commenting to the 
I made mention of conversions because most other races have spare clips as addons for the models, usually in multiples, but few 
not a good idea my friend not a good one at all. Were it not for things like 11,000 active black templars crusading all over the place you might not even have a Planet Armageddon.
Do us a favor and since it's obvious you haven't read an ork codex since 2nd edition please politely share your nauseating opinions with someone who would care to listen to you prattle on about the days of VHS and mix-tapes, meanwhile we are going to talk about something in the last 2 decades okay old timer?
) Necrons are 
