So reading through an early release of the new chaos codex, many people have noticed that Typhus can turn cultists into zombies. The standard max size of a cultist unit is 35 dudes. Its also very clearly states that these "zombies" can't purchase any options.
Adding troops is an option so RAW says that your zombie units can't be any larger than 10 man squads.
While I don't believe that we can get any specific answers here that are definitive until the FAQ is released, do you guys feel that this is simple typo? certainly seems to defeat the purpose to me.
I don't think its a typo. There is honestly no discussion possible at the moment with this rule. All we know is that as of right now the rules state that Zombies can only be in squads of 10. The rule is actually really clear and there is no ambiguity. Its possible it was a typo, but it seems too clear and the rest of the book is clear and concise. Very straight to the point.
I doubt that, 6th ed has tried to remove tarpits as much as it could. I assume zombies are easy to wound tough to wipe off the table stuff rather than cultists that are comparably easy to deal with. If so why would 6th ed's 1st codex piss on the work that they did with the rulebook.
I don't think it's a typo or an oversight. Like Red Comet said, it's pretty clear, straightforward, unambiguous language. And any speculation on whether it was intended is just that... speculation.
Wrote up a probably longer than it needed to be article on this very issue yesterday -
I love how everyone is saying its an oversight simply because they want to have a horde of zombies in 40k. So far I haven't seen any arguments that actually hold any water.
I really dont see the issue. If you want a horde, you go with the 35 cultists and their guns. If you want durability you go with the 10, FNP, Fearless zombies..
iturgies of blood
2012/10/05 00:18:25 Subject: Typhus and zombie cultists
Diakon wrote:
Oh my word writing that article on Rules Lawyers was a waste of time. As is the website to be fair. lol
I do enjoy respectful constructive criticism.
That was a bit unfair actually GiantKiller. Apologies. Was half asleep when I made that comment and now feeling a little ashamed. Guess yr site just isn't for me but I shouldn't've been so harsh.
The rules are actually quite clear. You can have a zombie unit of ten to 35 models, since the rules say _any_ cultist unit can be nominated as plague zombies (there is no limit on the unit size).
Lord Magnus wrote: Honestly, I would guess that Kelly just overlooked the fact that adding squad members were labeled as an "option" I think it will be FAQ'ed quickly.
Gentlemen, we all know that nothing is going to be FAQ'ed quickly. Remember that fearless is awesome now, so that's a pretty good reason why they might want to limit the unit sizes
The RAI on this is pretty obvious, as is the RAW. I would allow it, and expect an faq clearing it up by saying "except adding more zombies", but nobody should expect a TO to have RAI trump a very clear RAW.
schadenfreude wrote: The RAI on this is pretty obvious, as is the RAW. I would allow it, and expect an faq clearing it up by saying "except adding more zombies", but nobody should expect a TO to have RAI trump a very clear RAW.
Prove RAI is obvious. It seems clear to me that you can have a large blob of crappy infantry or a small blob of good infantry. Its game balance, so your "RAI is obvious" is a silly statement.
I can't believe that anyone wound think that this is intended and not just an oversight..... and then to scold people for thinking taking 35 man zombie packs is "unintended".
How fething petty can you get?
Plague Zombies is not a Free FNP and Fearless just because you take Typhus.
Plague Zombies can't shoot there guns and can't run, it's clearly a trade off that for no reason should limit numbers to 10.
The Idea that Zombies only come in squads of 10 is F'ing ludicrous.
Chaos Cultist -
"Hey Typhus, how come the Zombies get to be in organized squads and we don't?"
Typhus: Erm.. I think some of the zombies have the flu. How about a zombie tea party instead?
Clearly a brain fart moment by Kelly that will be FAQ'd and I would be willing to bet my Gran on that! ... She's been dead 20 years so you do get one extra zombie if you win.
Well, having 35 of them makes a massive difference. as far as shooting them. I am going to use a scenario here with marines against "10" zombies
rapid firing with 1 plasma gun, on average, they will inflict 9 wounds and the zombies would make 4 FNP rolls. 5 zombies dead. 0% chance of falling back.
Lets take the exact same result with a 35 man squad of regular cultists. The exact same marine squad rapid fires into them, and does 9 wounds. 9 dead. The squad now has a 27.78% chance to fall back.
so by that logic, 10 zombies have a much better chance to guard an objective than 35 cultists.
schadenfreude wrote: The RAI on this is pretty obvious, as is the RAW. I would allow it, and expect an faq clearing it up by saying "except adding more zombies", but nobody should expect a TO to have RAI trump a very clear RAW.
Prove RAI is obvious. It seems clear to me that you can have a large blob of crappy infantry or a small blob of good infantry. Its game balance, so your "RAI is obvious" is a silly statement.
"It's game balance"???? This is 6th ed. Did you forget allies and double FOC? Flyers without adequate flyer defense? There is no balance in this edition at this time. That is my opinion.
The point is the rule is clearly written, but yet everyone is jumping on the bandwagon saying its wrong. It not that people are interpreting it differently than others which is usually the case. They are saying that they know GW's intent and that rule is written wrong.
"That cant be right because I want a bunch of zombies!!"
Fragile wrote: The point is the rule is clearly written, but yet everyone is jumping on the bandwagon saying its wrong. It not that people are interpreting it differently than others which is usually the case. They are saying that they know GW's intent and that rule is written wrong.
"That cant be right because I want a bunch of zombies!!"
And this is the reason we are even discussing this right now. Everyone thinks they know what GW and Phil Kelly intended. I find everyone saying, "BUT THAT'S NOT HOW GW INTENDED IT" ludicrous, because the rule is clear. Its not ambiguous at all.
Fragile wrote: The point is the rule is clearly written, but yet everyone is jumping on the bandwagon saying its wrong. It not that people are interpreting it differently than others which is usually the case. They are saying that they know GW's intent and that rule is written wrong.
"That cant be right because I want a bunch of zombies!!"
Problem is, the rest of the entry is not written very well. Says they are armed with just just 1 close combat weapon, but then goes on to say that any ranged weapons they have they club people with.. does that mean they have a CCW and a pistol which gives them another attack in melee? It says you nominate the cultists you want to be zombies, which means they are really already purchased, so you have 35 cultists, you nominate.. now they're 10. We KNOW what RAW is, that's not an argument.. but a large amount of players have expressed that they think the RAI is that they can take up to 35 just like normal cultists and any equipment they have is just counts as a single CCW. I've already talked with everyone in our local club and they all agree with me, so luckily I don't have to worry about it.
schadenfreude wrote: The RAI on this is pretty obvious, as is the RAW. I would allow it, and expect an faq clearing it up by saying "except adding more zombies", but nobody should expect a TO to have RAI trump a very clear RAW.
Prove RAI is obvious. It seems clear to me that you can have a large blob of crappy infantry or a small blob of good infantry. Its game balance, so your "RAI is obvious" is a silly statement.
"It's game balance"???? This is 6th ed. Did you forget allies and double FOC? Flyers without adequate flyer defense? There is no balance in this edition at this time. That is my opinion.
6th ed is way better balanced than 5th, and there is a much larger # of competitive armies.
I stand by my point that rai is obvious. Cultists can be cheap dakka with 1a in cc, cheap cc with 2a and poor dakka, or fearless fnp punching bags with 1a, s&p, and no dakka. Looks balanced to me, but like I said earlier outside a friendly game raw trumps rai.
alienvalentine wrote: Clearly an oversight on the Kelly's part. There's no way that that's the way he intended it.
And an oversight on everyone who playtested it ??
Nick Bayton, John Bracken, Stefano Carlini, Paul Hickey, Matt Hilton, Andy Keddie, Trevor Larkin, Benjamin Mason, Martin Morrin, Gary Shaw??
Yep. Oversight. They can't possibly foresee every which way that the rules lawyer will twist every possible phrase. You cannot tell me with a straight face that they wanted only 10 man squads of zombies.
Everyone: Start emailing them at gamefaqs@games-workshop.co.uk Ask them if they seriously meant for Typhus to only bring 10 zombies per squad. I've already sent an email.
Fragile wrote: The point is the rule is clearly written, but yet everyone is jumping on the bandwagon saying its wrong. It not that people are interpreting it differently than others which is usually the case. They are saying that they know GW's intent and that rule is written wrong.
"That cant be right because I want a bunch of zombies!!"
And this is the reason we are even discussing this right now. Everyone thinks they know what GW and Phil Kelly intended. I find everyone saying, "BUT THAT'S NOT HOW GW INTENDED IT" ludicrous, because the rule is clear. Its not ambiguous at all.
No one is even saying that .. We understand that the rule is written clearly, and not "ambiguous" as you seem to keep mentioning but missing the point here..
There is no dispute about the rule's current clearness, however it IS very likely an oversight, and folks are hoping that GW aknowledges it as a mistake, and it gets FAQed. Things don't HAVE to be written unclearly to be an oversight ..
Ludicrous? Time to lighten up and stop reading so much into what people are saying >.>
While I agree that RAW they cannot have more than 10, I can see it being an over site. The entry mentions a cultist unit as a desperate thing. Then it says that cultists can't take options. It is possible that this was meant as models can't take options but the unit can.
However, by RAW a chaos cultist unit=plague zombies=chaos cultists which cannot take options. However the unit is called chaos cultists with an "s" and the model is a chaos cultist so the model can take an option like a gun... but guns can't be firedand are used as CCW so they can't shoot anyway. No matter how you swing it, RAW cannot shoot, cannot be larger than 10.
However my belief is (with no hard evidence) RAI is upgrade to 35.
alienvalentine wrote: Clearly an oversight on the Kelly's part. There's no way that that's the way he intended it.
And an oversight on everyone who playtested it ??
Nick Bayton, John Bracken, Stefano Carlini, Paul Hickey, Matt Hilton, Andy Keddie, Trevor Larkin, Benjamin Mason, Martin Morrin, Gary Shaw??
Yep. Oversight. They can't possibly foresee every which way that the rules lawyer will twist every possible phrase. You cannot tell me with a straight face that they wanted only 10 man squads of zombies.
Everyone: Start emailing them at gamefaqs@games-workshop.co.uk Ask them if they seriously meant for Typhus to only bring 10 zombies per squad. I've already sent an email.
A reasonable post as always, and I'll be sure to do as you suggested.
undertow wrote: I don't suppose getting a unit of cultists, increasing the size to X (where X is greater than 10) and THEN upgrading to zombies is an option?
undertow wrote: I don't suppose getting a unit of cultists, increasing the size to X (where X is greater than 10) and THEN upgrading to zombies is an option?
That's kind of how you have to do it. It says that if you have Typhus, you may nominate any amount of cultists to be zombies. They way that it words it (that they still have their previous equipment,but cannot use it) it seems like they meant to say zombie cultists cannot USE any equipment they have and count as only as having 1 CCW.
We'll see though, not too much point arguing over the internet about it. Kronk had the best idea of just letting them know that there IS a question about it.
I dont think kelly or the play testers considered increasing the squad size as an option or upgrade in terms of RAW. (I honestly do not think GW even thinks in terms of RAW. thats why we have so many FAQs.) They thought I make 35 zombies and just dont buy upgrades and boom zombie horde.
besides, what good is a zombie horde if it doesnt have numbers on its side?
Are we getting into the debate of when the unit is created compared to when it is nominated for special rules... god it's the original shrike debate in new form!
TFGs are strong this week.....
)
The rule is clear. Any chaos cultists units may be plague zombies. END SENTENCE.
Then it says no where that units cannot have upgrades.
NEXT SENTENCE.
Cultists "possessive singular" ie. A single cultist in a unit of them. Cannot be upgraded. Ie they cannot have model upgrades.
To say it is otherwise is ignoring the English language.
The entry states that they cannot PURCHASE Options, which means you nominate while making the army list. This could lead one to believe that nominating them as zombies is done before you can actually purchase options.
I can't believe that anyone wound think that this is intended and not just an oversight..... and then to scold people for thinking taking 35 man zombie packs is "unintended".
How fething petty can you get?
Plague Zombies is not a Free FNP and Fearless just because you take Typhus.
Plague Zombies can't shoot there guns and can't run, it's clearly a trade off that for no reason should limit numbers to 10.
The Idea that Zombies only come in squads of 10 is F'ing ludicrous.
Chaos Cultist -
"Hey Typhus, how come the Zombies get to be in organized squads and we don't?"
Typhus -
"Idk lol"
You forgot they also get SnP without a heavy wepaon tto shoot at full BS and as a result can never run. Awesome trade off for FnP that can be nulled with S6+ and fearless that you could get cheaper. 35 strong cultists would last longer and get into CC faster, I tend to lean towards the idea that squad size isnt intended to be included in the 'no options' rule for Zombies. If it is, then there is no point to taking zombies and you might as well just use the Apoc rules because they are better.
Fragile wrote: The point is the rule is clearly written, but yet everyone is jumping on the bandwagon saying its wrong. It not that people are interpreting it differently than others which is usually the case. They are saying that they know GW's intent and that rule is written wrong.
"That cant be right because I want a bunch of zombies!!"
Problem is, the rest of the entry is not written very well. Says they are armed with just just 1 close combat weapon, but then goes on to say that any ranged weapons they have they club people with.. does that mean they have a CCW and a pistol which gives them another attack in melee? It says you nominate the cultists you want to be zombies, which means they are really already purchased, so you have 35 cultists, you nominate.. now they're 10. We KNOW what RAW is, that's not an argument.. but a large amount of players have expressed that they think the RAI is that they can take up to 35 just like normal cultists and any equipment they have is just counts as a single CCW. I've already talked with everyone in our local club and they all agree with me, so luckily I don't have to worry about it.
Even with a CCW and a rifle they use it as a CCW so they'd still get a bonus attack under that presumption.
Honestly, the easiest way to solve this is to look at a similar situation that has been FAQed before, namely the one found in the Orks FAQ.
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa instead.
In other words if you add more models to the unit before Typhus is added to the list, they are grandfathered in as the unit has been established before Typhus was added. In other words you could even buy ranged weapons (if you pay the points) before Typhus is added, but he does away with ranged weapons so you could spend points for nothing as well as buy more units. It's all in the timing of when things are done. If you buy 25 models for the unit then add Typhus you haven't bought upgrades since typhus was put in.
Lone Dragoon wrote: Honestly, the easiest way to solve this is to look at a similar situation that has been FAQed before, namely the one found in the Orks FAQ.
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa instead.
In other words if you add more models to the unit before Typhus is added to the list, they are grandfathered in as the unit has been established before Typhus was added. In other words you could even buy ranged weapons (if you pay the points) before Typhus is added, but he does away with ranged weapons so you could spend points for nothing as well as buy more units. It's all in the timing of when things are done. If you buy 25 models for the unit then add Typhus you haven't bought upgrades since typhus was put in.
This is EXACTLY how I was thinking about it, I wasn't completely sure of any examples where this was used, and I was under that impression as well, if you want to gear the whole unit up, then make them zombies, it maybe a waste of points, but you CAN.
Fragile wrote: The point is the rule is clearly written, but yet everyone is jumping on the bandwagon saying its wrong. It not that people are interpreting it differently than others which is usually the case. They are saying that they know GW's intent and that rule is written wrong.
"That cant be right because I want a bunch of zombies!!"
And this is the reason we are even discussing this right now. Everyone thinks they know what GW and Phil Kelly intended. I find everyone saying, "BUT THAT'S NOT HOW GW INTENDED IT" ludicrous, because the rule is clear. Its not ambiguous at all.
No one is even saying that .. We understand that the rule is written clearly, and not "ambiguous" as you seem to keep mentioning but missing the point here..
There is no dispute about the rule's current clearness, however it IS very likely an oversight, and folks are hoping that GW aknowledges it as a mistake, and it gets FAQed. Things don't HAVE to be written unclearly to be an oversight ..
Ludicrous? Time to lighten up and stop reading so much into what people are saying >.>
Your post is hilarious because you agree with what I say, but then say I'm looking too much into what people are saying.
if you want to gear the whole unit up, then make them zombies, it maybe a waste of points, but you CAN.
-Lord Magnus
Since lots of people in this thread have brought up GW's "intent", it's important to note that since none of us can read minds, the best evidence we have of GW's intent is the language of the rule itself. If GW had intended for players to be able to completely ignore the rule and take whatever options they wanted, they wouldn't have included language in the rule that says "Plague Zombies ... cannot purchase options". (p. 61).
Lone Dragoon wrote: Honestly, the easiest way to solve this is to look at a similar situation that has been FAQed before, namely the one found in the Orks FAQ.
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa instead.
In other words if you add more models to the unit before Typhus is added to the list, they are grandfathered in as the unit has been established before Typhus was added. In other words you could even buy ranged weapons (if you pay the points) before Typhus is added, but he does away with ranged weapons so you could spend points for nothing as well as buy more units. It's all in the timing of when things are done. If you buy 25 models for the unit then add Typhus you haven't bought upgrades since typhus was put in.
The situations are barely even comparable, let alone being able to directly apply across an entirely different ruling like you are trying to do.
The key difference is that Plague Zombies are SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDEN from taking upgrades, that means the order doesn't matter, if you have plague zombies, and they have upgrades, then you have broken the rules for that unit. The reason you can still give the Nob a Klaw is that you aren't breaking any rule, you have legally swapped his choppa for a klaw, and then legally traded every choppa/slugga in the squad for a shoota, he just didn't have a choppa/slugga of his own to trade, further, no change of models has occurred in such a way as to make a previously selected option no longer valid.
A more accurate FAQ for you to be reading would be this one from the Ork FAQs:
Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.
This is because all those options are granted to Nobs, not to Painboys, it doesn't matter that you upgrade to a Painboy from a Nob, and that you can take options in any order, you can't give your Nob a Bosspole, then upgrade him to a Painboy and claim he still has it, because it's not a valid option for Painboys, and as soon as he becomes a Painboy, your army becomes invalid for having taken an illegal combination of options.
Similarly, nothing is an option for Zombies, so as soon as your Cultists become Zombies, if they have any options they took previously, they must lose them or else your army list is invalid.
The RAW is abundantly clear and this "order of operations loophole" doesn't actually exist at all.
if you want to gear the whole unit up, then make them zombies, it maybe a waste of points, but you CAN.
-Lord Magnus
Since lots of people in this thread have brought up GW's "intent", it's important to note that since none of us can read minds, the best evidence we have of GW's intent is the language of the rule itself. If GW had intended for players to be able to completely ignore the rule and take whatever options they wanted, they wouldn't have included language in the rule that says "Plague Zombies ... cannot purchase options". (p. 61).
It's actually not ignoring the rule, it's an order of operations loophole that GW itself opened up. We cannot judge their intent into the CSM codex until they FAQ it one way or another. They have already ruled on a similar choice, and they have said that the Nob is able to exchange his Choppa for a Klaw before every model giving up their Choppa/Slugga for a shoota. If a Cultist unit buys the upgrades and then Typhus is added in, did Plague zombies buy the upgrades or did the Cultists buy the upgrades? The answer would be, the cultists did. While it is a useless endeavor to buy the weapons when they are cultists because the zombies cannot use them, it is in the end not the zombies that bought the upgrades but the cultists. Either way I feel when GW has already given a ruling to a similar situation it's most fair to apply the ruling from the similar situation to the current one. Besides, would it be so bad to see Plague zombies running around with the MoN? They still die quite a bit faster than marines, and even Necron immortals and warriors.
Lone Dragoon wrote: Honestly, the easiest way to solve this is to look at a similar situation that has been FAQed before, namely the one found in the Orks FAQ.
Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100)
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa instead.
In other words if you add more models to the unit before Typhus is added to the list, they are grandfathered in as the unit has been established before Typhus was added. In other words you could even buy ranged weapons (if you pay the points) before Typhus is added, but he does away with ranged weapons so you could spend points for nothing as well as buy more units. It's all in the timing of when things are done. If you buy 25 models for the unit then add Typhus you haven't bought upgrades since typhus was put in.
The situations are barely even comparable, let alone being able to directly apply across an entirely different ruling like you are trying to do.
The key difference is that Plague Zombies are SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDEN from taking upgrades, that means the order doesn't matter, if you have plague zombies, and they have upgrades, then you have broken the rules for that unit. The reason you can still give the Nob a Klaw is that you aren't breaking any rule, you have legally swapped his choppa for a klaw, and then legally traded every choppa/slugga in the squad for a shoota, he just didn't have a choppa/slugga of his own to trade, further, no change of models has occurred in such a way as to make a previously selected option no longer valid.
The problem with saying it doesn't break any rules is that it actually does. If said nob trades his choppa for a klaw, and then the choice is made to have all the models give up their sluggas/choppas he is unable to make the switch, but the way the equipment reads if one does it they all do it. Here's the wording, "The entire unit may replace their sluggas and choppas..." Notice it says the entire unit? Not the entire unit except those that have given up their choppa. The nob simply replaces his choppa for the klaw, which actually means because he replaces it, if the unit changes weapons he replaces his choppa for a klaw. In other words if we were going by strictest RAW it would mean that in all instances the word choppa is replaced by power klaw. It doesn't work like that, instead they gave the Nob the opportunity to exchange his choppa for a klaw before something happens. This is the same for the Plague Zombies, if the unit is purchased during construction before Typhus is, they are able to alter their numbers because when that change is made no such limitation exists on them. Typhus's rules say he gives them rules, but the only thing it takes away is the ranged weapons of the unit. It just says that they may not choose options, but the choice was made before that rule comes into effect. In other words Typhus's rule does say it is retroactive, only that once they become Plague Zombies they cannot purchase options. It does not say they lose any options already purchased.
All of this rationalization people are coming up with for allowing options to be purchased before they become zombies is almost as ridiculous as the people who argued that there was an order of operations for Master crafting a weapon and that decided if it was a Unique Weapon or not.
Lone Dragoon wrote: The problem with saying it doesn't break any rules is that it actually does. If said nob trades his choppa for a klaw, and then the choice is made to have all the models give up their sluggas/choppas he is unable to make the switch, but the way the equipment reads if one does it they all do it. Here's the wording, "The entire unit may replace their sluggas and choppas..." Notice it says the entire unit? Not the entire unit except those that have given up their choppa. The nob simply replaces his choppa for the klaw, which actually means because he replaces it, if the unit changes weapons he replaces his choppa for a klaw. In other words if we were going by strictest RAW it would mean that in all instances the word choppa is replaced by power klaw. It doesn't work like that, instead they gave the Nob the opportunity to exchange his choppa for a klaw before something happens. This is the same for the Plague Zombies, if the unit is purchased during construction before Typhus is, they are able to alter their numbers because when that change is made no such limitation exists on them. Typhus's rules say he gives them rules, but the only thing it takes away is the ranged weapons of the unit. It just says that they may not choose options, but the choice was made before that rule comes into effect. In other words Typhus's rule does say it is retroactive, only that once they become Plague Zombies they cannot purchase options. It does not say they lose any options already purchased.
You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the FAQ which is strange given how recently you quoted it in this very thread, and the fact that it is a verbose and justified response.
"You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa instead."
it makes it abundantly clear, options can be taken in any order (which I'm not disputing) and once the Nob no longer has a choppa and slugga because of options, he is not affected by taking further options that replace a slugga and choppa. He doesn't break the rules, he follows them to the T and trades his 0 instances of "slugga and choppa" for 0 instances of "shoota", he has thus met the requirements for the trade, without it having any effect on his wargear due to the wargear's prior state.
It's entirely different to taking wargear then going on to later be forbidden from taking that wargear, which as I have demonstrated previously, has a history of not being allowed regardless of the order you are doing so in.
Until they aren't running around and just sitting in cover to have a 6+4++5+++...
On the other hand you can make 35 cultists fearless with the icon for 25 points. No where that I can find does it say that if you have MoN you can't take the Icon of vengeance as a side note. Of course MoN in this case is 70 pts!
If you really want 35 fearless, hatred, feel no pain, init 4 cultist with guns... just get the Icon of Slaanesh and a Dark Apostle.
I would love for them to be able to take the 35 per unit, I already have over a hundred or so of them. Yay Vampire Counts.
Frankly you might have something here with order of operations, regardless of nominating but simply that you can purchase the cultists before purchasing Typhus. It is clearly states that there is an order of operations when applied to "purchasing" models, no where does it state that you must start with the HQ.
It's actually not ignoring the rule, it's an order of operations loophole that GW itself opened up. We cannot judge their intent into the CSM codex until they FAQ it one way or another. They have already ruled on a similar choice, and they have said that the Nob is able to exchange his Choppa for a Klaw before every model giving up their Choppa/Slugga for a shoota. If a Cultist unit buys the upgrades and then Typhus is added in, did Plague zombies buy the upgrades or did the Cultists buy the upgrades? The answer would be, the cultists did. While it is a useless endeavor to buy the weapons when they are cultists because the zombies cannot use them, it is in the end not the zombies that bought the upgrades but the cultists. Either way I feel when GW has already given a ruling to a similar situation it's most fair to apply the ruling from the similar situation to the current one.
-Lone Dragoon
This Nob / Klaw / Shoota example you're referring to simply has no bearing on the scenario at issue here. Unlike with Plague Zombies, there is no rule in the Ork codex that specifically says "Nobs cannot purchase Powerklaws".
Now, let's imagine for a second that there was such a rule in the ork codex. If there were, the order in which you made your selections would be completely irrelevant - if you ended up with a Nob with a PowerKlaw, you'd be breaking the rules.
Plague Zombies do have a rule that specifically prohibits Plague Zombies from taking any options. No matter what order you do things in, if you end up with a unit of Plague Zombies which has taken any options, you've violated the rule.
Besides, would it be so bad to see Plague zombies running around with the MoN? They still die quite a bit faster than marines, and even Necron immortals and warriors.
-Lone Dragoon
Arguing that your interpretation is correct because of perceived game balance issues is entirely unpersuasive.
While it plainly doesn't make sense as many of GWs rules consider this. This is coming from pure logic, (as in the philosophy and science of logic) using English instead of proper symbols.
buy cultist
try to purchase 25 cultists
can cultist buy options? yes then purchase them else don't purchase
cultists now have 35
Buy 3 heavy stubbers
can cultist buy options? yes then purchase them else don't purchase
unit is now armed with 3 heavy stubbers.
buy typhus
nominate unit of 35 cultists
Any guns cultists have cannot be used, except for clubbing.
Heavy stubbers are removed and can only be used for klobbering.
They are armed with a single close combat weapon. (someone else can look up if MoN would be considered an armament)
Cultists try to purchase heavy stubbers again
can cultist buy options? yes then purchase them else don't purchase.
Purchase cannot happen, no guns are armed
Please tell me where it says if previous options were bought unit becomes illegal. There is no check that looks at previous options other them armaments. more models are options but not armaments.
Having said that, feel free to field 420 zombies, Griffon tanks are gonna be fun. Depending if a model is "armed' with war gear which i do believe it is.
Fragile wrote: The point is the rule is clearly written, but yet everyone is jumping on the bandwagon saying its wrong. It not that people are interpreting it differently than others which is usually the case. They are saying that they know GW's intent and that rule is written wrong.
"That cant be right because I want a bunch of zombies!!"
And this is the reason we are even discussing this right now. Everyone thinks they know what GW and Phil Kelly intended. I find everyone saying, "BUT THAT'S NOT HOW GW INTENDED IT" ludicrous, because the rule is clear. Its not ambiguous at all.
No one is even saying that .. We understand that the rule is written clearly, and not "ambiguous" as you seem to keep mentioning but missing the point here..
There is no dispute about the rule's current clearness, however it IS very likely an oversight, and folks are hoping that GW aknowledges it as a mistake, and it gets FAQed. Things don't HAVE to be written unclearly to be an oversight ..
Ludicrous? Time to lighten up and stop reading so much into what people are saying >.>
Your post is hilarious because you agree with what I say, but then say I'm looking too much into what people are saying.
Really? .. I'm agreeing with your statements of "It's not a typo, I can't imagine how anyone could possibly think that just because they WANT MOAR ZOMBIES" ?? And imagine that .. people wanting hordes of zombies instead of some nonsensical, small, zombie bingo club.
And I'm agreeing with your statements of "The fact that it's clear and unambiguous like the rest of the book means that it cannot possibly be a mistake or oversight" ?? Once again I'll say it .. just because something is "clearly written" (which as folks are now pointing out that it's not) doesn't mean it's impossible to be an oversight. <---- How is that statement agreeing with yours in any way, shape, or form? You have said nothing of the like, no matter how you look at it.
For all you know it IS an oversight, how can you argue that you know what GW/Kelly intended too, and everyone else is "ludicrous" for thinking otherwise, without being hypocritical? For all we know as well, it's not an oversight, but to everyone but you it's obvious that it is .. However, we're not shooting you down for stating your opinion. The manner in which you state it though, is another story.
Red Comet wrote: All of this rationalization people are coming up with for allowing options to be purchased before they become zombies is almost as ridiculous as the people who argued that there was an order of operations for Master crafting a weapon and that decided if it was a Unique Weapon or not.
Actually, despite my previous posts, I agree with a lot of what is being said in this thread now, in regards to the order of operations and how it's worded using plurals vs singular. I don't believe it's reason enough without confirmation from GW .. but it's still an argument that holds water, which is exactly what you asked for, is it not? But oh wait, it doesn't really hold any water, because YOU say everything is ridiculous, hilarious, and ludicrous.
Get off your high horse mate, and stop acting like hot **** who's opinion everyone who plays the hobby should care about above all else. Because that's exactly how you're coming off.
It's common English to use plurals in the singular when talking generically, especially when describing something of indeterminate gender and number, such as a horde of zombies.
The actual codex says;
Codex: Chaos Space Marines (2012) Page 61 wrote:Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain, and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options
As such, RAW actually states no individual Plague Zombie may purchase additional options. Adding more zombies to the unit would not be a purchase made by or affecting an individual model, therefore the option to increase the size of the unit is not governed by this rule.
Alternatively you could argue that the only options the unit must purchase are Marks of Chaos. As none of the other options specify a purchase they can all be performed, however the rules for zombies would render any of these additional options obsolete and as such would be a waste of points.
Edit: In addition to this the previous incarnation of these rules allowed for units of 10-30 so logic would suggest this was what they intended.
Well I for one am certainly going to be taking 35 strong zombie cultist units with Typhus. I'm also giving Ahriman powers from the Divination table and will be upgrading my Night Lord CSM squad to have Night Vision & Fear for +1 pts per model. Sure, none of those options are technically legal according to the RAW, but we all know they were just an oversight.
I agree with a lot of what is being said in this thread now, in regards to the order of operations and how it's worded using plurals vs singular. I don't believe it's reason enough without confirmation from GW .. but it's still an argument that holds water
-Beerfiend
Those arguments hold about as much water as a cracked colander. No matter what order you operate in, if you end up with a unit of plague zombies which has taken options, you have violated the plague zombies rule and have an invalid unit. And there's absolutely no language in the rule to suggest it is only referring to "individual" plague zombies. Both arguments are wishful thinking.
RAW actually states no individual Plague Zombie may purchase additional options.
-Kitkat
That is absolutely not what the rule says. The word "individual" is nowhere to be found in the language of the rule itself, nor is it implied by the "common english" as you've suggested. The language of the rule does not support your argument. As I've said before, the best evidence of GW's intent is the language of the rules they write. If GW had meant "no individual zombie" they would have said "no individual zombie". They didn't.
the previous incarnation of these rules allowed for units of 10-30 so logic would suggest this was what they intended.
-Kitkat
This is a creative argument, but unfortunately an old Apocalypse CSM datasheet has no bearing on a discussion of the rule as it is written in the new CSM codex. You could just as easily argue that because zombies in the plague zombie datasheet unit wounded on 4+ and had a chance to bring fallen opponents back from the dead, the new CSM zombies should, too. Neither argument is persuasive.
Those arguments hold about as much water as a cracked colander. No matter what order you operate in, if you end up with a unit of plague zombies which has taken options, you have violated the plague zombies rule and have an invalid unit. And there's absolutely no language in the rule to suggest it is only referring to "individual" plague zombies. Both arguments are wishful thinking.
Please tell me where it says this. As I stated before, if you apply and order of operations the purchasing no where does it say this is not legal, just that they cannot purchase more once nominated.
Think of it this way. Assuming you do not have proper permits.
You can not legally buy a gun in new york, however you used to be able to, a long time ago.
If you purchased a gun back then you did not break any laws. They made another law that says you may not carry guns.
You own the gun but you can no longer carry it and everything is legal.
If it says plague zombies units are limited to only 10 models this discussions would be mute. Typhus has rules about armaments but not a limit on options.
No matter what order you do things in, you still end up with a unit of Plague Zombies that have purchased Options from their Options entry, which they are prohibited from.
"Typhus has rules about armaments but not a limit on options."
That is exactly what he has. A limit on Options, as you can't have any.at all for units that are nominated as Plague Zombies.
RAW actually states no individual Plague Zombie may purchase additional options.
-Kitkat
That is absolutely not what the rule says. The word "individual" is nowhere to be found in the language of the rule itself, nor is it implied by the "common english" as you've suggested. The language of the rule does not support your argument. As I've said before, the best evidence of GW's intent is the language of the rules they write. If GW had meant "no individual zombie" they would have said "no individual zombie". They didn't.
If GW had specified individual zombie we'd be having the same pedantic discussion about whether or not they could take Marks. Also the common use ,in the English language, of using plurals in the singular when talking generically does support my agument.
Example;
Chavs are youths that have the bling, vicky pollard, and asbo special rules, and cannot purchase options.
As you can see, this uses plurals to describe the attributes of an indivdual chav. This is my interpretation of what's written and I'm going to stick with it but I understand if you disagree and I have no problem with that. I do however still think that my argument is valid.
To take this even further, I went to the Friar Lane store in Notts to ask one of the playtesters mentioned on P.2 of the codex his perspective. His opinion was that they could be upgraded to 35, cosidering he playtested the codex I am willing to take his definition.
In all seriousness, can someone explain why it is certain that increasing the unit size is considered an "upgrade" (which would therefore be explicitly forbidden)?
Deuce11 wrote: In all seriousness, can someone explain why it is certain that increasing the unit size is considered an "upgrade" (which would therefore be explicitly forbidden)?
They are forbidden from purchasing options, not upgrades. If it said upgrades, then you could field 35 zombies.
Of course, on a side note if someone did field units of 35 Zombies, I would be all "Sweet, zombie Jesus, it's a zombie horde!" and make sure all my models are equipped with a Shotgun* and chainsaw.
*Preferred model being the twelve-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about a hundred and nine, ninety five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right. Shop smart. Shop S-Mart. You got that?
Tjolle79 wrote: No matter what order you do things in, you still end up with a unit of Plague Zombies that have purchased Options from their Options entry, which they are prohibited from.
"Typhus has rules about armaments but not a limit on options."
That is exactly what he has. A limit on Options, as you can't have any.at all for units that are nominated as Plague Zombies.
Please quote the context when quoting me.
He does not not check options bought prior to nomination. He does not say having previously bough an option is illegal. He only has rules that talk about previously owned weapons, and that you may not buy options. If you buy before you nominate then you aren't buying them after the rule comes into play.
Really? .. I'm agreeing with your statements of "It's not a typo, I can't imagine how anyone could possibly think that just because they WANT MOAR ZOMBIES" ?? And imagine that .. people wanting hordes of zombies instead of some nonsensical, small, zombie bingo club.
You are agreeing because you said it yourself that people simply are hoping for it to be an oversight. There is no proof that it is or isn't.
And I'm agreeing with your statements of "The fact that it's clear and unambiguous like the rest of the book means that it cannot possibly be a mistake or oversight" ?? Once again I'll say it .. just because something is "clearly written" (which as folks are now pointing out that it's not) doesn't mean it's impossible to be an oversight. <---- How is that statement agreeing with yours in any way, shape, or form? You have said nothing of the like, no matter how you look at it.
What I said was that the rule was clear and everyone is acting as if it has to be an oversight when there is no proof that it goes either way. I'm pointing out that people need to accept how the book is written. If GW wants to FAQ it, I'm all for it. It'd be cool to see it on the board, but right now its not legally possible in a W40k Chaos Space Marines list.
For all you know it IS an oversight, how can you argue that you know what GW/Kelly intended too, and everyone else is "ludicrous" for thinking otherwise, without being hypocritical? For all we know as well, it's not an oversight, but to everyone but you it's obvious that it is .. However, we're not shooting you down for stating your opinion. The manner in which you state it though, is another story.
I never said that I knew and if I did sorry. I was probably laughing too hard at the time that this is even being discussed, because there is no ruling to be made, because its clear. No one knows the intent of GW or Kelly, but it is clear.
Actually, despite my previous posts, I agree with a lot of what is being said in this thread now, in regards to the order of operations and how it's worded using plurals vs singular. I don't believe it's reason enough without confirmation from GW .. but it's still an argument that holds water, which is exactly what you asked for, is it not? But oh wait, it doesn't really hold any water, because YOU say everything is ridiculous, hilarious, and ludicrous.
Get off your high horse mate, and stop acting like hot **** who's opinion everyone who plays the hobby should care about above all else. Because that's exactly how you're coming off.
A post right below the one you made last quotes the rule. Zombie Cultists can't take options period. Taking more models in a unit is an option for the unit so it cannot be done. There is no order of operations here even though people want to believe there is. I brought up the example with Master Crafting to point out how far some people will go to justify their own ambiguous view of a rule. This rule isn't ambiguous in any way. The only reason this thread exists is because people want to have more than 10 Zombies and GW used the word options to refer to unit size. People normally don't think of unit size as an option even though technically it is. There is no ruling that can be made at the moment and there is no call to make, because right now all we have is black and white that tells us what a Zombie unit consists of.
I personally don't care if someone plays against me with 35 zombies in a friendly game, but in a tournament I wouldn't accept this behavior because its clearly against the rules and the way a friendly game and a tournament game go about are very different.
I don't see why you are telling me to get off a high horse when you tell me I look too much into this rule. Look at all of the other posts. My answer and argument is probably one of the most simplistic because it is that simple. Its pretty obvious what is written in black and white and that's what we follow.
Grey Templar wrote: Was the unit a unit of zombies when it got the upgrades?
If no, then the unit is legal.
No that's not how it works, the way it works is "does the unit of zombies have upgrades at the time you declare your list final" as evidenced by my earlier example of the Pain Boy in a Nob unit.
If what you were saying was true, then the relative rules would be "Was the model a painboy when he bought his Bosspole, if no then the model is legal" however, as we know, that model is not legal, regardless of timing pedantry. Your army can cease to be legal at any point in time when you create an illegal combination of upgrades.
Grey Templar wrote: Was the unit a unit of zombies when it got the upgrades?
If no, then the unit is legal.
No that's not how it works, the way it works is "does the unit of zombies have upgrades at the time you declare your list final" as evidenced by my earlier example of the Pain Boy in a Nob unit.
If what you were saying was true, then the relative rules would be "Was the model a painboy when he bought his Bosspole, if no then the model is legal" however, as we know, that model is not legal, regardless of timing pedantry. Your army can cease to be legal at any point in time when you create an illegal combination of upgrades.
Exaclty. If you try to start your game with 35 plague zombies you have clearly made purchases from the Options entry for your Cultists, which you clearly can not according to the rules. Thus you've created an illegal entry.
However much you might want it. RAW its solid.
The rule is that you "cannot buy Options". Now which Options would that be? Why, those Options listed in the Army list entry.
I read the first page of this thread and could not bring myself to read any further.
I would just like to break this down clearly.
35 FNP, Fearless, scoring zombies at the points cost stated is absolutely and totally ridonculous. They would be the best troop choice in game and would break the codex.
10 Model limit is clearly, 100 % RAW. RAI arguments are pointless at this stage.
If this does get FAQ'd (which it will not), I will be taking 150 of them backed up with nasty hammer units. Then I will /cry as no-one will play the army
WingWong wrote: I read the first page of this thread and could not bring myself to read any further.
I would just like to break this down clearly.
35 FNP, Fearless, scoring zombies at the points cost stated is absolutely and totally ridonculous. They would be the best troop choice in game and would break the codex.
10 Model limit is clearly, 100 % RAW. RAI arguments are pointless at this stage.
If this does get FAQ'd (which it will not), I will be taking 150 of them backed up with nasty hammer units. Then I will /cry as no-one will play the army
Break the codex? lol How are 3S 3T 1A units with a FnP vs str 5 or below game breaking? They are just a tarpit, nothing more.
Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?
Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.
juraigamer wrote: Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?
Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.
Most likely because they want to field hordes of zombies and are oh so disappointed that they can't, so they're griping for straws, bending words, comparing singular vs plural wording and by any means necessary try to bend the rules to be able to field them.
We have read and apply an order of operations. He doesn't go back in time and check for options just changes what they are "armed" with.
As far as game breaking... lol what isn't st 6 these days to prevents the FNP?
and fearless. throw a Dark Apostle or a Chaos lord in there.
For everyone that plays RAI, there isn't a problem. It's a fuffy army and dies to st 6 shots and blasts. Seems like DE might have a problem poisoning a zombie but other then that most dex's can take it out without much problem. (power mauls for the win)
First turn I will fire at anything other then them, second turn they still are not within charge change, third turn drop blasts on them. they die.
For everyone that plays RAW... There are good arguments both ways. Can a Pain Boy take a schoota/rokkit kombie? Another argument could be based on wording where is states exactly what a pain boy is, and is armed with. Pg 38.
Order of operations would be like this.
buy nobs,
buy boss pull for nob A
upgrade nob A to painboy
painboy has the following wargear..
Doks Tools, Urty Syringe.. (but no boss pull)
This is a very important find because this means that you cannot have marks for plague zombies. T4 FNP is so much better then T3 FNP.
As a side note, for the people that play RAW, I am assuming you are playing in tournaments. Regardless of what you feel, It's the TO that will decide what happens.
I would check with the TO first.
"Any Chaos Cultist units...in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies. Plague Zombies are...and cannot purchase options. They are armed with a single close combat weapon - any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death!"
Plague Zombies rule seems to take effect after you have already purchased the unit. Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. Chaos Cultists can purchase options. Why would there be the clarifying statement of "any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death" if you cannot have guns in the unit any way? I think it was worded like this because the Cultists may purchase heavy stubbers or flamers if you are so inclined, but it would end up being a waste of points because they only use their guns to club people to death and cannot fire them. You could purchase a flamer or shotgun if you want, but it would be a waste of points. It doesn't say "The squad is limited to 10 men" it says "Plague Zombies...cannot purchase options". Therefore, the Cultists may purchase men up to the total of 35, but Zombies (a separate entity from Cultists) cannot once they have been made Zombies.
Cultists purchase options -> Cultists are nominated by Typhus as Plague Zombies -> Did you buy a heavy stubber? Sucks for you, you can't use it but you still paid for it -> Plague Zombies cannot buy anything else.
I dont see a problem, you have to buy cultists FIRST before you nominate a cultist unit to transform into zombies, so size can be changed before transforming them. you cant nominate a unit that you havent chosen first. thats how my local group plays at my store.
juraigamer wrote: Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?
Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.
Taking Typhus and purchasing options for your cultist units is a valid choice. But thanks for assuming the worst for everyone else...
juraigamer wrote: Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?
Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.
Taking Typhus and purchasing options for your cultist units is a valid choice. But thanks for assuming the worst for everyone else...
Is it? It doesn't look to be.
If it says no options and the codex is written anything like the BA codex then you are out of luck with that assertion.
Don't have an opinion on legality either way, but taking Jervis Johnson's article in the latest WD on "limiting limitations" at face value, I'd be willing to bet at least 50 cents that it'll be FAQd to allow 35.
juraigamer wrote: Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?
Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.
Taking Typhus and purchasing options for your cultist units is a valid choice. But thanks for assuming the worst for everyone else...
Is it? It doesn't look to be.
If it says no options and the codex is written anything like the BA codex then you are out of luck with that assertion.
There are no extra rules for Typhus regulating the options for cultists and you don't have to nominate a cultist unit as zombies. So, upgrading your cultists while fielding Typhus is valid.
GameFreak975 wrote: Why would there be the clarifying statement of "any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death" if you cannot have guns in the unit any way?
You miss the point that the basic cultist comes with a gun.
GameFreak975 wrote: Why would there be the clarifying statement of "any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death" if you cannot have guns in the unit any way?
You miss the point that the basic cultist comes with a gun.
They are also armed with a ccw. So, how many attacks does a zombie get?
juraigamer wrote: Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?
Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.
Taking Typhus and purchasing options for your cultist units is a valid choice. But thanks for assuming the worst for everyone else...
Is it? It doesn't look to be.
If it says no options and the codex is written anything like the BA codex then you are out of luck with that assertion.
There are no extra rules for Typhus regulating the options for cultists and you don't have to nominate a cultist unit as zombies. So, upgrading your cultists while fielding Typhus is valid.
I agree that it is valid, but you went out of your way to fix another poster's post simply because he said Cultists vs. Zombies. It was pretty obvious he meant zombies in his original post and not Cultists.
Example; Chavs are youths that have the bling, vicky pollard, and asbo special rules, and cannot purchase options. As you can see, this uses plurals to describe the attributes of an indivdual chav. This is my interpretation of what's written and I'm going to stick with it but I understand if you disagree and I have no problem with that. I do however still think that my argument is valid.
-KitKat
Your argument isn't valid because even if true, it doesn't refute the point you're arguing against. Even if you believe that the rule "Plague Zombies ... cannot purchase options" means that individual plague zombies cannot purchase options, that doesn't change the fact that it also prohibits any unit called "Plague Zombies" from purchasing options as a unit. Again, if the language of the rule said "no individual plague zombie may purchase options" or even "no plague zombie may purchase options" then I think you'd have a point. There's no unit called plague zombie. There is a unit called plague zombies. So a rule that specifically states "Plague Zombies ... cannot purchase options" prohibits that unit from purchasing options. And that rule applies regardless of the order of operations. If you put down a unit of more than 10 plague zombies, it doesn't matter what order you made the selections that led to you putting those models on the table, you're still attempting to play with an invalid unit per the rule.
To take this even further, I went to the Friar Lane store in Notts to ask one of the playtesters mentioned on P.2 of the codex his perspective. His opinion was that they could be upgraded to 35, cosidering he playtested the codex I am willing to take his definition.
-KitKat
This appeal to authority argument you're attempting fails because the person whose authority you're appealing to has no authority. He didn't write the rule. His ruling is binding on noone. He has no more expertise in interpreting rules than you or I. I don't care how your playtester buddy interpreted the rules any more than I'd care how David Beckham might interpret them if you called him up. This is just another version of the "I called up GW's rules hotline and they said..." or "I talked to a manager at the GW store and he said..." argument that consistently fails to persuade. If I called up a playtester and he told me that Plague Zombies in the new codex have 3+ armor saves, would that be persuasive evidence that Plague Zombies have 3+ armor saves, despite clear unambiguous language to the contrary in the codex?
P.S. The next time you run into your playtester buddy, smack him in the back of the head for not telling GW how absolutely terribad mutilators are. Thanks!
juraigamer wrote: Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?
Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.
Taking Typhus and purchasing options for your cultist units is a valid choice. But thanks for assuming the worst for everyone else...
I agree that it is valid, but you went out of your way to fix another poster's post simply because he said Cultists vs. Zombies. It was pretty obvious he meant zombies in his original post and not Cultists.
It wasn't obvious at all. For all we know he might've assumed that every cultist automatically transforms into a zombie or the special Typhus rules somehow effect all of the cultists. Maybe next time he won't waste time on the general insults and checks his post.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GiantKiller wrote: P.S. The next time you run into your playtester buddy, smack him in the back of the head for not telling GW how absolutely terribad mutilators are.
Model-wise i agree, reusing the old obliterator sculpts and then selling two clones in a unit of three, brilliant :(
Rules-wise i don't know yet; so please wait before you smack the play tester
On the note on this zombie thing, do this mean that we have in the squad a zombie champion? with and extra attack and ld.
who is also a character, and must by the champion of chaos rule always challenge and have a chance to be transformed into a demon prince?
juraigamer wrote: Why does not one realize that everything for cultists beyond their basic default model is listed under "options" and that if you take typhus, you cannot take any "options"?
Probably because people are dumb. Or haven't read/don't have the book. Maybe both.
Taking Typhus and purchasing options for your cultist units is a valid choice. But thanks for assuming the worst for everyone else...
Is it? It doesn't look to be.
If it says no options and the codex is written anything like the BA codex then you are out of luck with that assertion.
There are no extra rules for Typhus regulating the options for cultists and you don't have to nominate a cultist unit as zombies. So, upgrading your cultists while fielding Typhus is valid.
My bad, I meant to say taking typhus and upgrading in anyway, even taking the option of more men, is not allowed if your cultists are nominated to be zombies.
stefanort wrote: On the note on this zombie thing, do this mean that we have in the squad a zombie champion? with and extra attack and ld.
who is also a character, and must by the champion of chaos rule always challenge and have a chance to be transformed into a demon prince?
Oh that's interesting seeing as hes not allowed a mark. Generic DP, or does it get the zombie rules and become a zombie DP? lol
jegsar wrote: There are good arguments both ways. Can a Pain Boy take a schoota/rokkit kombie? Another argument could be based on wording where is states exactly what a pain boy is, and is armed with. Pg 38.
Order of operations would be like this.
buy nobs,
buy boss pull for nob A
upgrade nob A to painboy
painboy has the following wargear..
Doks Tools, Urty Syringe.. (but no boss pull)
This is a very important find because this means that you cannot have marks for plague zombies. T4 FNP is so much better then T3 FNP.
This isn't how the Nob entry is though, the Pain Boy isn't given his own entirely separate wargear entry, he shares a wargear entry with the rest of the Nobs and the only exceptional wargear given to him is "Painboy replaces slugga and choppa with dok's tools and 'urty syringe" nothing about that suggests he would lose a bosspole he had previously purchased, the reason he can't have the bosspole is because you can't buy wargear and then make it illegal by future changes to your army list, end of story.
There is no order of operations, you can't have an illegal combination of wargear/options when your models go to table, order doesn't mean a thing.
stefanort wrote: The cultist champion do indeed have the champion of chaos rule
Is the Cultist Champion a Chaos Cultist for the purposes of the Plague Zombie rule? And what happens to his special rule Champion of Chaos, since it's not mentioned in the list of special rules for plague zombies?
The entire Plague Zombie rule is oddly written. RAW seem contadictory to me since they state that any Cultists units in the army can be nominated...well wouldn't you have to have already purchased and equipped the unit in order for it to be considered part of the army prior to nominating it for the Plague Zombie upgrade?
stefanort wrote: The cultist champion do indeed have the champion of chaos rule
Is the Cultist Champion a Chaos Cultist for the purposes of the Plague Zombie rule? And what happens to his special rule Champion of Chaos, since it's not mentioned in the list of special rules for plague zombies?
It doesn't say the Champion loses his Champion of Chaos rule, so he can't lose it from becoming a Zombie.
The Zombie rule just says what they gain, and that they can't take Options. Champion of Chaos is not explicitly mentioned that its lost.
jegsar wrote: There are good arguments both ways. Can a Pain Boy take a schoota/rokkit kombie? Another argument could be based on wording where is states exactly what a pain boy is, and is armed with. Pg 38.
Order of operations would be like this.
buy nobs,
buy boss pull for nob A
upgrade nob A to painboy
painboy has the following wargear..
Doks Tools, Urty Syringe.. (but no boss pull)
This is a very important find because this means that you cannot have marks for plague zombies. T4 FNP is so much better then T3 FNP.
This isn't how the Nob entry is though, the Pain Boy isn't given his own entirely separate wargear entry, he shares a wargear entry with the rest of the Nobs and the only exceptional wargear given to him is "Painboy replaces slugga and choppa with dok's tools and 'urty syringe" nothing about that suggests he would lose a bosspole he had previously purchased, the reason he can't have the bosspole is because you can't buy wargear and then make it illegal by future changes to your army list, end of story.
There is no order of operations, you can't have an illegal combination of wargear/options when your models go to table, order doesn't mean a thing.
Read the Ork FAQ, Clearly an order of operations is applied.
The reason he doesn't have boss pull is because he BECOMES a Painboy. Check out what they have on Page 38.Just like when becoming a spawn you lose everything, when you become something else you lose everything and gain what that new thing has.
I agree cultists lose every piece of war gear they have when they become zombies and get a freshly dead CCW. However they can still be 35 strong.
jegsar wrote: Read the Ork FAQ, Clearly an order of operations is applied.
Yes an order of operations is applied, however, in spite of that you can never create an illegal wargear combination and field it, because your earlier choices can be invalidated and made illegal by later ones
The reason he doesn't have boss pull is because he BECOMES a Painboy. Check out what they have on Page 38.
Page 38 doesn't provide a comprehensive list of the things a Painboy is armed with, just like Page 40 doesn't list all the wargear a regular boyz mob is armed with, this argument is a fallacy
A painboy in a Nob squad is armed with all the things he is listed as armed with in the Nob Squad wargear entry on Page 98. He swaps 2 specific items for his Doc Tools and Urty Syringe, nothing more, nothing less.
Just like when becoming a spawn you lose everything, when you become something else you lose everything and gain what that new thing has.
This is only true when you are told you lose everything, which is why becoming a spawn tells you you lose everything.
I agree cultists lose every piece of war gear they have when they become zombies and get a freshly dead CCW. However they can still be 35 strong.
Except if they are 35 strong you have taken options for the unit, no ifs or buts about it.
stefanort wrote: The cultist champion do indeed have the champion of chaos rule
Is the Cultist Champion a Chaos Cultist for the purposes of the Plague Zombie rule? And what happens to his special rule Champion of Chaos, since it's not mentioned in the list of special rules for plague zombies?
It doesn't say the Champion loses his Champion of Chaos rule, so he can't lose it from becoming a Zombie.
The Zombie rule just says what they gain, and that they can't take Options. Champion of Chaos is not explicitly mentioned that its lost.
The rules don't say they get the mentioned special rules in addition to their previous special rules, and therefore no Champion of Chaos. There is no ruling regarding the Cultist Champion either; can he be nominated as a zombie at all?
Let's imagine for a moment that you could take 35 zombie units. How many S6 shots would it take to kill that unit?
2+ wounds, so it would take about 42 hits. Assuming 3+ hits, it would take 63 S6 attacks. If you use attacks that are less than S6, it would take a lot more.
You can take 6 troops + Typhus for 1130 points. Thats 210 zombies. To kill 210 zombies it would take 378 S6 attacks. A lot more if you use S5 or less.
Do you have 378 S6 attacks in your armylist?
And then there is the rest of the Chaos list to deal with.
Yea, zombies would be kinda overpowered like that.
Zombies are trash. Units of 10 are worthless. A unit of 35 is only marginally OK. They can't shoot, can't fight in HTH, can't run and can't go to ground. They are poor at holding objectives too,
A unit of "regular cultists can go to ground in area terrain for a 3+ cover save, which is better than the 5+/5+FNP of the zombie. Not to mention that any decent shooting will take away the Zombies's FNP.
I would argue that to limit them to 10 men is a poor idea for game balance as they don't contribute to your army.
Now if they could take the mark of Nurgle, we would have a whole different issue...
So we have 10 man squads that may or may not contain a champion that may or may not have the "champion of chaos" rule...
yeah I think a faq on this is in order
As for 10 man size limit I have no opinion at this time.
But for the Cultist Champion, I believe that definitely the unit is allowed to have one.
The rule says to that a Cultist Squad(see page 95 which defines a squad as consisting of 9&1 ) can be nominated to be Plague Zombies and that these Zombies are Cultist with Fearless, FNP and SnP and cannot purchase upgrades.
A Cultist Champion while arguably could be define as an "Upgrade" is most definitely NOT a "Purchased" upgrade and therefor is not limited by the Rule.
40k-noob wrote: As for 10 man size limit I have no opinion at this time.
But for the Cultist Champion, I believe that definitely the unit is allowed to have one.
The rule says to that a Cultist Squad(see page 95 which defines a squad as consisting of 9&1 ) can be nominated to be Plague Zombies and that these Zombies are Cultist with Fearless, FNP and SnP and cannot purchase upgrades.
A Cultist Champion while arguably could be define as an "Upgrade" is most definitely NOT a "Purchased" upgrade and therefor is not limited by the Rule.
Cannot purchase options. If it said upgrades, you'd be able to purchase more cultists.
Polecat wrote: Let's imagine for a moment that you could take 35 zombie units. How many S6 shots would it take to kill that unit?
2+ wounds, so it would take about 42 hits. Assuming 3+ hits, it would take 63 S6 attacks. If you use attacks that are less than S6, it would take a lot more.
You can take 6 troops + Typhus for 1130 points. Thats 210 zombies. To kill 210 zombies it would take 378 S6 attacks. A lot more if you use S5 or less.
Do you have 378 S6 attacks in your armylist?
And then there is the rest of the Chaos list to deal with.
Yea, zombies would be kinda overpowered like that.
They are meant to be taken as groups of 10.
First, let me say that I completely agree that RAW indicates that you can only have a unit of 10 zombies.
A unit of 35 Zombies are not overpowered. I played a game against BA on Saturday where my opponent ran two Devastator Squads with Missile Launchers. He fired 3 frag missiles from one group of devs at my unit of 35 zombies. He scored two direct and one deviated hit. All in all, he landed a total of 31 hits (13 models will fit under a blast template) and Frag Missiles are AP5, so they remove my armor save. Now, our group doesn't use Frag Missiles often and we were excited to see how this would play out, so we forgot to roll wounds. I made 10 FNP rolls. I wasn't in cover, so I didn't get the cover save.
Even if we had rolled wounds, a 3+ would have done the job. He would have statistically landed 20 wounds, I would have saved 10, and I would have only lost 10 zombies, reducing my group to 25 instead of the 14 I had left after forgetting to roll wounds. As Zombies can't run, they are moving 6" a turn. I did have a unit of Plague Marines from an immobilized Rhino firing Plasma shots into the Devastators and took 1 of them out (hence the 3 frag missiles instead of 4. Even then, I'd have had maybe 2 turns before I got into assault range with the PM, three or more with the zombies. He would have easily killed them by then.
If you take a Tac Squad with NO upgrades and put them 24" from the zombies, perhaps while defending an objective, they are going to have 4 rounds of firing before the zombies can get close them, assuming that they don't move up to destroy them first. That's 60 shots at full BS (10 at 24", 10 at 18", 20 at 12", and 20" at less than 12, unless a miraculous charge roll is made on the third round) and 20 more snap shots for Overwatch. The zombies charge and get however many attacks are left at Strength and Initiative 3. The Marines are going to hit them first, hitting and wounding on 3+. Between the shots, overwatch, and going first in Assault, they are going to decimate the zombies, even with Fearless and FNP.
Telling me that a unit of 35 zombies is overpowered because they have Fearless and FNP tells me that you don't know what overpowered actually is. It tells me that you haven't played with or against a unit of 35 zombies. Yes, S6 shots will double them out, but just about every weapon out there takes away their 6+ armor save, so factoring that in against the majority of armies' shooting is useless. CC is something completely different, unless you're dealing with Chaos Chain Axes or power weapons.
I'll reiterate, yes, we forgot to roll wounds, so that hurt me. Even if we had rolled wounds, it would have delayed the inevitable.
If an FAQ is given and someone can eventually take 6 units of 35 zombies, lacking the shooting that rules 6th edition is going to hurt you significantly. It limited my ability to tae out his units. Once you get into CC, you're going to be ineffective. You will tarpit units and nothing else. When you're wounding on a 5+ with a single attack, you're not going to win a lot of battles.
With all of that in mind, I do find it hard to believe that it will not be FAQ'd to allow a 35 man unit. If it's FAQ'd to show that RAI is a 10 man unit, no one will play zombies in any kind of remotely competitive game. Even in friendly games, I wouldn't play it as I don't want to waste 2 hours of my time.
40k-noob wrote: As for 10 man size limit I have no opinion at this time.
But for the Cultist Champion, I believe that definitely the unit is allowed to have one.
The rule says to that a Cultist Squad(see page 95 which defines a squad as consisting of 9&1 ) can be nominated to be Plague Zombies and that these Zombies are Cultist with Fearless, FNP and SnP and cannot purchase upgrades.
A Cultist Champion while arguably could be define as an "Upgrade" is most definitely NOT a "Purchased" upgrade and therefor is not limited by the Rule.
I think Upgrades by their very definition have to be optional. A champion is certaintly not an optional thing for a Cultist unit. Just like a Sergeant isn't optional for a Space Marine squad.
I think this needs a FAQ desperately, but to mirror what others have said in regard to zombies being OP, consider:
100 bolters are shot at plague marines and then plague zombies in open ground. against the PM 100*4/81= 4.94 kills....Against zombies 100*8/27=29.63 kills....
Its laughable when you look at the numbers, PM still shot for shot, blow for blow take more wounds efficiently then any other unit in the codex, can STILL have 2 SW at only 5 models and are now even more efficient in cc.
Now if you start adding cover to the scenario, obviously the plague marines numbers stay the same (which is still better) while the other numbers get slightly better, like intervening models of soft cover saves 10 more zombies but at that point cultists are better as they can go to ground and with the MoN have a higher toughness which means 100 bolters shooting at MoN cultists in in open ground is 100*2/6=33.33 dead cultists which is worse then zombies but after going to ground with simple cover becomes 100*2/12=16.67 compared to the 20 dead zombies. So without having to purchase typhus and retaining their weapons they are actually better then zombies at holding back field objectives and you avoid the current debate on options.
kcwm wrote: All in all, he landed a total of 31 hits (13 models will fit under a blast template)
Only if you're a bad general and keeping every zombie in base to base. That's just silly.
and Frag Missiles are AP5, so they remove my armor save. Now, our group doesn't use Frag Missiles often and we were excited to see how this would play out, so we forgot to roll wounds. I made 10 FNP rolls. I wasn't in cover, so I didn't get the cover save.
So literally the absolute best case scenario for the Frag missiles. Great testing methodology.
Even if we had rolled wounds, a 3+ would have done the job. He would have statistically landed 20 wounds, I would have saved 10, and I would have only lost 10 zombies, reducing my group to 25 instead of the 14 I had left after forgetting to roll wounds. As Zombies can't run, they are moving 6" a turn. I did have a unit of Plague Marines from an immobilized Rhino firing Plasma shots into the Devastators and took 1 of them out (hence the 3 frag missiles instead of 4. Even then, I'd have had maybe 2 turns before I got into assault range with the PM, three or more with the zombies. He would have easily killed them by then.
You're ignoring the purpose of the zombies. It isn't to get in their face and make you deal with them.
It's to be a kill point that is really really tough to kill in KP games, or a really tough objective holder in objective games.
Even in the absolute best case scenario you proved he needed at least two turns of his devestators firing at the zombie unit to kill it - meaning those Devs aren't popping tanks or Plague marines or anything else that are more deadly.
If you take a Tac Squad with NO upgrades and put them 24" from the zombies, perhaps while defending an objective, they are going to have 4 rounds of firing before the zombies can get close them, assuming that they don't move up to destroy them first. That's 60 shots at full BS (10 at 24", 10 at 18", 20 at 12", and 20" at less than 12, unless a miraculous charge roll is made on the third round) and 20 more snap shots for Overwatch. The zombies charge and get however many attacks are left at Strength and Initiative 3. The Marines are going to hit them first, hitting and wounding on 3+. Between the shots, overwatch, and going first in Assault, they are going to decimate the zombies, even with Fearless and FNP.
Yes, that would be dumb for the zombies to do. The smart Chaos player will shift the Tac squad off the objective with a different unit then let the zombies hold it.
You will tarpit units and nothing else. When you're wounding on a 5+ with a single attack, you're not going to win a lot of battles.
You act like that's a bad thing. A 35 man Fearless FNP unit is one of the best tarpits in the game - and dirt cheap to boot.
With all of that in mind, I do find it hard to believe that it will not be FAQ'd to allow a 35 man unit. If it's FAQ'd to show that RAI is a 10 man unit, no one will play zombies in any kind of remotely competitive game. Even in friendly games, I wouldn't play it as I don't want to waste 2 hours of my time.
Yeah, objective holders that are hard to kill suck. I'd never take them either.
With the way that the board was set up (city fighting), it worked out that way. We play terrain heavy boards. It has its good and bad points. Tight quarters without getting into difficult terrain is one of them. We were more or less testing out the codex. We weren't playing a highly strategic game.
Literally the absolute best case? That'd be every hit being a direct hit. So, no, not the absolutely best case. Lucky? Yeah, but not uncommon in our group.
A 35 man Fearless/FNP unit might one one the best tarpits in the game on paper, but in practice, I can tell you otherwise. It's definitely nothing to sneeze at, not at all. That was never my point. They still easily fall to shots. Few weapons are AP-, so you're getting FNP but no armor save. Against anything S6 and higher, you're not getting any saves. Templates are going to rock you. You can't spread out too far without inhibiting that units movement or the movement of your other units.
So you sit them on an objective and let your opponent come to you. You can't do anything to them until they get to you, but they can shoot at you the entire time that they are in range. Move up to attack them and they can still shoot AND overwatch you. Ork Boyz can run in squads of 30 and also have Fearless, but have better stats and can hold their own in CC. Zombies can't. In three rounds of CC, I rolled quite well for having to roll 5+ to hit and wound. A 3+ armor save is really good for a reason. Add to that that he also had FNP because of a Sanguinary Priest, and I didn't kill one guy.
Objective holders with those stats, that can't shoot back and can't overwatch and are only going to get a 5+ save while being limited to a 10 man force? You'd be wise to never take them because they aren't worth their cost, even if that cost is 50 points. That's why I'm not.
My whole point is that a 35 man squad isn't overpowered. Not close to it. It might be one of the best tarpit units, but most other tarpit units can do more than simply stand around, looking pretty, with 1 attack and definitely get more than 10 models. People looking at them and calling them one of the best tarpit units aren't looking at the whole picture, rather, they are looking at the parts of the picture that fit their argument. Picking and choosing points doesn't make you right.
Concentrating on the individual unit and ignoring the rest of the army doesn't make you right either.
I'm not saying they're overpowered, but bringing up a situation where you gave blast weapons almost the absolute best case scenario and citing the unit as not overpowered is ... silly at best.
rigeld2 wrote: Concentrating on the individual unit and ignoring the rest of the army doesn't make you right either.
I'm not saying they're overpowered, but bringing up a situation where you gave blast weapons almost the absolute best case scenario and citing the unit as not overpowered is ... silly at best.
that was one situation where I argued against OP. There are plenty of other situations, even with better placement. It's not silly at best, it's hardly silly at all. I'd counter that any argument saying that they are the best or even one of the best tarpit units in the game isn't looking at the whole picture and is silly at best.
I'm not talking whole picture as in the whole army. I'm talking about looking at the whole picture of how that unit works, it's pros and cons, and looking beyond seeing Fearless and FNP. You have to look at those special abilities in context, which includes unit size, but also what are their other features. People that aren't are the ones saying "A 35 man unit is way too strong, it's OP, it's unfair, it's this, it's that, it's the other.
Again, IMHO, there is absolute no question as to the rules as they are written, even as a proponent that there will be an FAQ that says otherwise, that a unit of zombies can't be more than 10, regardless of how you maneuver around the order of how things are applied. In a codex that I think is pretty balanced, against both itself and how it will perform against other codices, it's something that I feel is an oversight, very much how I feel that the Chaos Terminators' inability to upgrade both their weapon and gun is an oversight.
Rules are 10 zombies period. It would not surprise me if this was an error but the only thing that will change this is an errata, until then it's the rules.
I really don't see how he got 31 hits with 3 frag missiles. Did you let him him cultists on multiple floors of a ruin with each missile or something like that? Remember you can only target one floor.
If they are on an objective, kill everything else and ignore them, they are doing nothing but holding an objective.
If they are not on an objective, don't let them get on one. Throw one T5 unit at them and they will at worst tie it up. (This shouldn't be till turn 3)
After you kill everything else, contest the objective. If you let everything else kill you, well you suck anyway as they are literally doing NOTHING to harm you. At least marines sitting back on an objective can take a few shots at you.
jegsar wrote: If they are on an objective, kill everything else and ignore them, they are doing nothing but holding an objective.
If they are not on an objective, don't let them get on one. Throw one T5 unit at them and they will at worst tie it up. (This shouldn't be till turn 3)
After you kill everything else, contest the objective. If you let everything else kill you, well you suck anyway as they are literally doing NOTHING to harm you. At least marines sitting back on an objective can take a few shots at you.
I'd love to see you get something withing 3" of an objective when there's 35 models on it.
I'm supposed to play my first sixth edition game against a friend and we're both going to use 1850 point lists we're taking to a Tournament later this month. He bought my Dark Vengeance cultists off of me and told me he was taking a Typhus list. Should I be prepared for rules arguing?
Oaka wrote: I'm supposed to play my first sixth edition game against a friend and we're both going to use 1850 point lists we're taking to a Tournament later this month. He bought my Dark Vengeance cultists off of me and told me he was taking a Typhus list. Should I be prepared for rules arguing?
Not really if you are going to a Tourney.
The TO will make the call and thats it.
Just make sure to ask before it starts so you can plan your games accordingly.
This thread is not about the effectiveness of zombies/cultists, it is about a rule that states you cannot take options for a squad if you nominate a squad as zombies.
You build your list before you do anything, it is assumed you nominate your units at that point rather due to the fact that you cannot purchase options for zombies. It stands to reason that you can make a 35 strong cultist unit, but as soon as you nominate them as zombies, they revert to 10 guys, since you can't have options.
First of all, any unit of Chaos Cultists can be nominated as Plague Zombies in an army that contains Typhus. No limitation on size or quantity.
Note that they are not upgraded to Plague Zombies, but can be nominated as Plague Zombies. Important piece of vernacular there because this means that a player with Typhus has a great amount of flexibilty as he is able to nominate or not nominate a Chaos Cultist to be Plague Zombies at will. This leads into the next point.
When the player builds his list, he chooses his options for a unit of Chaos Cultists and Chaos Cultists alone which in this case would include making the perfectly legal choice of making them 35 models strong.
Nomination of a Chaos Cultist unit into Plague Zombies is not part of building a list as some are trying to equate. It is more akin to declaring what units are being held in Reserves and how they will be deployed. That means in a tournament setting, a player with Typhus in his army could nominate a Chaos Cultist unit to be Plague Zombies in one game and not nominate them in the next to play them as Chaos Cultists.
Lastly, the rule specifies what happens to the Chaos Cultists ranged weapons and/or close combat weapons when they are nominated to become Plague Zombies. This is in direct correlation to them also not being able to purchase options and thus not being able to rearm themselves once nominated as Plague Zombies.
As it stands, a unit of Chaos Cultist has the perfectly legal and valid option to purchase the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. If the army includes Typhus, any Chaos Cultist unit can be nominated to be Plague Zombies, any including said 35 model strong Chaos Cultist unit. At no time did the Plague Zombies ever purchase the option to increase the unit size to 35 models.
You first purchase a unit of up to 35 cultists then convert them to zombies - so there is no limit. That is how we are playing it... not one complaint so far.
So an "implied" order of operations and a semantics over when an option is taken is your argument?
If a zombie unit has 35 men then it has taken additional options simple as. Options include taking more men. Cannot purchase options means no options can be taken.
Look at it this way... you think you have come up with a RAW answer when in fact it is wrong and not the RAW. There are also people incorrectly stating the RAI is that zombies were intended to be max of 10 - how can they know this?
All you have to do is read what is already written and that is a very simple thing to do.
Yep, a group of cultists can be nominated to be zombies, gain all the buffs and cannot purchase any options.
RAW that means that anything in the options of chaos cultists is not allowed. That includes adding members to the squad.
While nomination is not the same as taking the choice at point of writing the army list the typhus rules overrule the free ability to have 35 dudes with all the important upgrades.
RAI is whatever GW were thinking, I don't claim to know it.
liturgies of blood wrote: So an "implied" order of operations and a semantics over when an option is taken is your argument?
If a zombie unit has 35 men then it has taken additional options simple as. Options include taking more men. Cannot purchase options means no options can be taken.
Actually no LoB.
A Plague Zombie unit of 35 was a Chaos Cultist unit that legally purchased the option to increase the unit size to 35 and then was nominated to become Plague Zombies. At no time did the Plague Zombie unit purchase anything.
Ah wrong. Plague zombies are still cultists "Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options." Emphasis mine.
So they are chaos cultists that cannot purchase options. If you can show they are no longer cultists and that having more men is not taking an option then you win.
liturgies of blood wrote: So an "implied" order of operations and a semantics over when an option is taken is your argument?
If a zombie unit has 35 men then it has taken additional options simple as. Options include taking more men. Cannot purchase options means no options can be taken.
Actually no LoB.
A Plague Zombie unit of 35 was a Chaos Cultist unit that legally purchased the option to increase the unit size to 35 and then was nominated to become Plague Zombies. At no time did the Plague Zombie unit purchase anything.
It's an option, it's not legal, and it's clear as day by RAW. You nominate them to be plague zombies, they can't purchase any options, additional dudes are the first thing under the heading "Options". Give it up.
You've inserted a step in between purchasing the option (bolded even in your statement above) for a unit to include more guys, which is done during list creation simultaneous with buying them guns and everything else, then nominating them as plague zombies, then buying them random "option" upgrades.
Your logic would also allow any gun upgrade or mark as well - after all, those were bought legally while the unit was chaos cultists, before you nominated them. Now that they're nominated, you just can't buy anymore?
Grey Templar wrote: If you have the models as close as possable, you can get quite alot of hits with templates.
A flamer can cover something like 25 bases, a small blast can get around 12.
Realistically, you won't get anything like that against even a poor opponent. You would have to be very bad to allow that many hits.
attomsk wrote:
I really don't see how he got 31 hits with 3 frag missiles. Did you let him him cultists on multiple floors of a ruin with each missile or something like that? Remember you can only target one floor.
It was due to how the board was set up.
My group typically plays city fighting, so we have lots of ruins on MDF boards to represent the blasted out cities and big rock formations to represent impassable ruins. I didn't want them moving through difficult terrain and having to potentially roll poorly, so I stuck to the streets so I could move the full 6". So, yes, they were bunched up. We weren't playing an objective game, so leaving them sitting in the corner wasn't going to do me any good. A blast marker CAN hit 13 models if they are base to base.
It was my first game with a horde unit. My sister-in-law was arriving from out of town, so due to a time constraint, I wasn't looking to squeeze every bit of strategy out of the unit. I wasn't concerned about high generalship. I'm not going to cheese out and spread 35 models 1" or 2" apart in a casual game with my friends. We wanted to see how the zombies worked, especially with in a 35 man unit and we got to do that against a variety of weapons.
The point is that once you look at the big picture, zombies aren't what some people are cracking them up to be. People are getting caught up in the whole "ZOMG, 35 zombies with FNP and Fearless! OP!" but they fail to look at the stat line and what can and does hurt zombies with incredible efficiency. Looking at something from a balanced perspective doesn't help them argue their point, but looking at the small picture certainly does.
I'm not denying that it's a great tarpit unit or that it's a great unit to sit on an objective in your deployment zone, especially in ruins or cover, at least until a unit with even decent firepower comes knocking. Then, it doesn't matter how spread out you are, you're going to take wounds and plenty of them, whether it's from small arms fire, blasts, or close combat. Most other tarpit units have better stats, better saves, better attacks. Ork Boyz might not have FNP, but they have Fearless in a mob setting, can shoot at you, and can more than hold their own with a MEQ in CC after overwatching them. Zombies? Not so much.
Could I have played it differently? Sure. Will I play it differently? Sure, as long as the board allows it.
liturgies of blood wrote: So an "implied" order of operations and a semantics over when an option is taken is your argument?
If a zombie unit has 35 men then it has taken additional options simple as. Options include taking more men. Cannot purchase options means no options can be taken.
Actually no LoB.
A Plague Zombie unit of 35 was a Chaos Cultist unit that legally purchased the option to increase the unit size to 35 and then was nominated to become Plague Zombies. At no time did the Plague Zombie unit purchase anything.
It's an option, it's not legal, and it's clear as day by RAW. You nominate them to be plague zombies, they can't purchase any options, additional dudes are the first thing under the heading "Options". Give it up.
You've inserted a step in between purchasing the option (bolded even in your statement above) for a unit to include more guys, which is done during list creation simultaneous with buying them guns and everything else, then nominating them as plague zombies, then buying them random "option" upgrades.
Your logic would also allow any gun upgrade or mark as well - after all, those were bought legally while the unit was chaos cultists, before you nominated them. Now that they're nominated, you just can't buy anymore?
And no again.
You purchase a unit of Chaos Cultists. You do not purchase a unit of Plague Zombies. The Chaos Cultists have a list of options. Increasing the Chaos Cultist unit to 35 is a legal option as is buying guns and or marks. You can nominate ANY Chaos Cultist unit to become Plague Zombies.
Again, at no time did Plague Zombies purchase anything. Your premise that because the Chaos Cultists purchased the option to increase the unit size to 35, the Plague Zombies purchased the option to increase the unit size is flawed as Plague Zombies specifically have no options and are prohibited from purchasing options.
Timing issues regardless, the unit consists of ten models when purchased and yes as an option you can bring the total up to thirty-five models.
Making the unit Plague Zombies goes without question when the unit has ten models, however declaring them as Plague Zombies when the unit has 10+ models is not possible because the unit has been given options... an oversight perhaps ? sure but the rule is clearly RAW at the moment.
Adding weapon upgrades is an option Buffing the champion is an option Adding models to the unit is an option
Automatically Appended Next Post: Player 1: this is my unit of 35 plague zombies.
Player 2: did you take any options ?
Player 1: no
Player 2: isn't adding models an option ?
toxic_wisdom wrote: Timing issues regardless, the unit consists of ten models when purchased and yes as an option you can bring the total up to thirty-five models.
Making the unit Plague Zombies goes without question when the unit has ten models, however declaring them as Plague Zombies when the unit has 10+ models is not possible because the unit has been given options... an oversight perhaps ? sure but the rule is clearly RAW at the moment.
Adding weapon upgrades is an option Buffing the champion is an option Adding models to the unit is an option
Wrong yet again.
There is no restriction on a Chaos Cultist unit purchasing the option to increase the unit size to 35. That is a legal and valid option. Any Chaos Cultist unit can be nominated to become Plague Zombies. There is no restriction on that either. Prior to nomination the Chaos Cultist unit did, however they are not restricted from doing so. After nomination, at no time did the Plague Zombies purchase an option because;
1. They are no longer Chaos Cultists and thus allowed to purchase options.
2. They do not have any options to purchase.
Yeah, the only restriction is that the Zombies can't purchase Options.
They were not Zombies at the time they purchased options. And as Zombies they have purchased no options at all. No restriction that they automatically lose any options they purchased prior to being zombies.
toxic_wisdom wrote: Timing issues regardless, the unit consists of ten models when purchased and yes as an option you can bring the total up to thirty-five models.
Making the unit Plague Zombies goes without question when the unit has ten models, however declaring them as Plague Zombies when the unit has 10+ models is not possible because the unit has been given options... an oversight perhaps ? sure but the rule is clearly RAW at the moment.
Adding weapon upgrades is an option Buffing the champion is an option Adding models to the unit is an option
Wrong yet again.
There is no restriction on a Chaos Cultist unit purchasing the option to increase the unit size to 35. That is a legal and valid option. Any Chaos Cultist unit can be nominated to become Plague Zombies. There is no restriction on that either. Prior to nomination the Chaos Cultist unit did, however they are not restricted from doing so. After nomination, at no time did the Plague Zombies purchase an option because;
1. They are no longer Chaos Cultists and thus allowed to purchase options.
2. They do not have any options to purchase.
You're making a distinction that isn't in the rules because you want it to be one way for personal reasons, and I get that, but it has put blinders on you. There is 0 difference between purchasing a weapon option, and purchasing additional models option. They're in the same list of options. You can't say one option is legal but the others aren't, because you have absolutely nothing to support that.
Under your logic, it is perfectly legal to buy marks and anything you want for chaos cultists, because at the time you purchased, they were chaos cultists. Then you nominated them as zombies. The zombies don't purchase options, the chaos cultists did.
Except that logic is clearly flawed, and would make the entire line of text "cannot purchase options" under the plague zombie rule moot.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, the only restriction is that the Zombies can't purchase Options.
They were not Zombies at the time they purchased options. And as Zombies they have purchased no options at all. No restriction that they automatically lose any options they purchased prior to being zombies.
Actually there are restrictions in regard to melee and ranged weapons. So if the Chaos Cultist had purchased the option of a heavy stubber and the Cultist champion had purchased the option of a special close combat weapon, once nominated to become Plague Zombies those options become a single close combat weapon and cannot be repurchased as Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. No such modifications exist for increaing unit size or marks on the champion.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, the only restriction is that the Zombies can't purchase Options.
They were not Zombies at the time they purchased options. And as Zombies they have purchased no options at all. No restriction that they automatically lose any options they purchased prior to being zombies.
Actually there are restrictions in regard to melee and ranged weapons. So if the Chaos Cultist had purchased the option of a heavy stubber and the Cultist champion had purchased the option of a special close combat weapon, once nominated to become Plague Zombies those options become a single close combat weapon and cannot be repurchased as Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. No such modifications exist for increaing unit size or marks on the champion.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, the only restriction is that the Zombies can't purchase Options.
They were not Zombies at the time they purchased options. And as Zombies they have purchased no options at all. No restriction that they automatically lose any options they purchased prior to being zombies.
Actually there are restrictions in regard to melee and ranged weapons. So if the Chaos Cultist had purchased the option of a heavy stubber and the Cultist champion had purchased the option of a special close combat weapon, once nominated to become Plague Zombies those options become a single close combat weapon and cannot be repurchased as Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. No such modifications exist for increaing unit size or marks on the champion.
How are you making up a restriction in regards to melee and ranged weapons? The plague zombie rule states "cannot purchase options". Applying your logic means they can either purchase all of the options (because nomination happens after, and as such the plague zombie cannot purchase option restriction is moot), or they "cannot purchase ANY options" and they have to be 10 mans.
You're drawing a line between additional models and ranged/melee weapons because it's what you feel it should be or is trying to say, the problem is, it's not the raw of it
toxic_wisdom wrote: Timing issues regardless, the unit consists of ten models when purchased and yes as an option you can bring the total up to thirty-five models.
Making the unit Plague Zombies goes without question when the unit has ten models, however declaring them as Plague Zombies when the unit has 10+ models is not possible because the unit has been given options... an oversight perhaps ? sure but the rule is clearly RAW at the moment.
Adding weapon upgrades is an option Buffing the champion is an option Adding models to the unit is an option
Wrong yet again.
There is no restriction on a Chaos Cultist unit purchasing the option to increase the unit size to 35. That is a legal and valid option. Any Chaos Cultist unit can be nominated to become Plague Zombies. There is no restriction on that either. Prior to nomination the Chaos Cultist unit did, however they are not restricted from doing so. After nomination, at no time did the Plague Zombies purchase an option because;
1. They are no longer Chaos Cultists and thus allowed to purchase options. 2. They do not have any options to purchase.
You're making a distinction that isn't in the rules because you want it to be one way for personal reasons, and I get that, but it has put blinders on you. There is 0 difference between purchasing a weapon option, and purchasing additional models option. They're in the same list of options. You can't say one option is legal but the others aren't, because you have absolutely nothing to support that.
Under your logic, it is perfectly legal to buy marks and anything you want for chaos cultists, because at the time you purchased, they were chaos cultists. Then you nominated them as zombies. The zombies don't purchase options, the chaos cultists did.
Except that logic is clearly flawed, and would make the entire line of text "cannot purchase options" under the plague zombie rule moot.
Not really. The Plague Zombie rule would remove any Marks/Rules that unit had prior to being nominated. The rule says that Plague Zombies are Cultists with FnP, Fearless and SnP. Whether 10 or 35(i have no opinion on the size limit at this time) that is all they get. One Champion, and the rest of the unit with only those 3 USR's and any ranged weapons are moot because the unit counts as only having a single CCW.
toxic_wisdom wrote: Timing issues regardless, the unit consists of ten models when purchased and yes as an option you can bring the total up to thirty-five models.
Making the unit Plague Zombies goes without question when the unit has ten models, however declaring them as Plague Zombies when the unit has 10+ models is not possible because the unit has been given options... an oversight perhaps ? sure but the rule is clearly RAW at the moment.
Adding weapon upgrades is an option Buffing the champion is an option Adding models to the unit is an option
Wrong yet again.
There is no restriction on a Chaos Cultist unit purchasing the option to increase the unit size to 35. That is a legal and valid option. Any Chaos Cultist unit can be nominated to become Plague Zombies. There is no restriction on that either. Prior to nomination the Chaos Cultist unit did, however they are not restricted from doing so. After nomination, at no time did the Plague Zombies purchase an option because;
1. They are no longer Chaos Cultists and thus allowed to purchase options.
2. They do not have any options to purchase.
You're making a distinction that isn't in the rules because you want it to be one way for personal reasons, and I get that, but it has put blinders on you. There is 0 difference between purchasing a weapon option, and purchasing additional models option. They're in the same list of options. You can't say one option is legal but the others aren't, because you have absolutely nothing to support that.
Under your logic, it is perfectly legal to buy marks and anything you want for chaos cultists, because at the time you purchased, they were chaos cultists. Then you nominated them as zombies. The zombies don't purchase options, the chaos cultists did.
Except that logic is clearly flawed, and would make the entire line of text "cannot purchase options" under the plague zombie rule moot.
I have no pony in this race as I only play Space Wolves.
Melee and ranged weapon options purchased when the unit was purchased as Chaos Cultists is addressed in that after being nominated they become a single close combat weapon.
The text of "cannot purchase options" is not moot due to the line that Liturgies of Blood pointed out in that states Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with the additional rules listed. If that text was not included, I could nominate a unit of Chaos Cultists with a heavy stubber to become Plague Zzombies and the heavy stubber becomes a single close combat weapon and then turn around and purchase a heavy stubber again as the rule says that Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with additional special rules.
My point was that zombies are cultists plus, they still have the same stats etc but have no access to the options. Cannot have stubbers, more men, marks, or a shotgun on the champion.
Target wrote: How are you making up a restriction in regards to melee and ranged weapons? The plague zombie rule states "cannot purchase options". Applying your logic means they can either purchase all of the options (because nomination happens after, and as such the plague zombie cannot purchase option restriction is moot), or they "cannot purchase ANY options" and they have to be 10 mans.
If you interpret it in such a way that they can purchase all the options before nomination, that only actually matters w/r/t the unit size. As soon as they're nominated they lose any wargear they might have purchased; a zombie has a single ccw and the specified USRs, nothing else. Because they are now zombies and unable to purchase options, they can't buy those weapons back. This interpretation doesn't render the "can't take options" line moot, nor does it stop you from fielding a unit of 35 zombies.
Not saying this is the "correct" RAW but I don't see anything in the entry that prevents it from being interpreted this way.
e; i took so long writing this post that Grimtooth basically said all of this before I finished it~
liturgies of blood wrote: My point was that zombies are cultists plus, they still have the same stats etc but have no access to the options. Cannot have stubbers, more men, marks, or a shotgun on the champion.
But you just prove my point.
Chaos Cultist prior to being nominated are JUST Chaos Cultists that can legally increase their unit size to 35. After nomination they are Plague Zombies which you point out are now "Cultists Plus" that have additional USRs and cannot take options.
So, a perfectly legal option is chosen for a Chaos Cultist unit (increase unit to 35). That option was chosen and paid for BY the Chaos Cultist unit. Said unit is nominated to be Plague Zombies aka Cultists Plus. That Plague Zombie (Cultists Plus) unit has 35 models in it, but at no time did that unit of Plague Zombies (Cultists Plus) choose or pay for the option to increase the unit to 35 models after it had been nominated.
RAW is followed and adhered to because at no time did the Plague Zombies choose and purchase an option.
No, you cannot agree with the clause which states they are cultists that cannot have any options, if you have 10+ men.
You are introducing a difference between the units that doesn't exist. Zombies are still cultists, at no point are they no longer cultists, they are cultists with additional rules. Just like when you have given infiltrator to a cultist squad with blackheart. You haven't proven that they are different just kept saying they are.
That they cannot buy guns is already covered by the 2nd line. The 3rd line of the rule sates that the weapons the unit already has are now just a single ccw. You cannot have options and whatever guns your basic model have are ignored.
liturgies of blood wrote: No, you cannot agree with the clause which states they are cultists that cannot have any options, if you have 10+ men.
You are introducing a difference between the units that doesn't exist. Zombies are still cultists, at no point are they no longer cultists, they are cultists with additional rules. Just like when you have given infiltrator to a cultist squad with blackheart. You haven't proven that they are different just kept saying they are.
That they cannot buy guns is already covered by the 2nd line. The 3rd line of the rule sates that the weapons the unit already has are now just a single ccw. You cannot have options and whatever guns your basic model have are ignored.
Plauge Zombies are NOT Chaos Cultists. Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with a slew of USR's and the inability to purchase options. Does the entry for Chaos Cultists include those USR's? Does the entry for Chaos Cultists prohibit the purchase of options?
Chaos Cultist =/= Chaos Cultist with USR's and restriction on purchains options.
I just blew up your argument with your own reasoning. Deal with it.
What do you call Chaos Cultists with FnP/S&P/Fearless; that cannot choose any options, and are nominated to be Plague Zombies in an army containing Typhus?
[hint]The answer is IN the question[/hint]
As you said, Plague Zombies are Cultists Plus. Cultists Plus =/= Chaos Cultists
Strawman? You apply a rule to a squad and change their loadout does that change the squad's name? Cultists plus in the same way that giving any unit a usr or additional rules/options by way of an HQ or special rule is unit plus.
I call them plague zombies but Plague zombies are defined page 61 as Chaos cultists. In the same line as being defined as cultists they are also not allowed to have options.
Plauge Zombies are NOT Chaos Cultists. Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with a slew of USR's and the inability to purchase options. Does the entry for Chaos Cultists include those USR's? Does the entry for Chaos Cultists prohibit the purchase of options?
Chaos Cultist =/= Chaos Cultist with USR's and restriction on purchains options.
I just blew up your argument with your own reasoning. Deal with it.
As per page 61 of the codex "Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists"
liturgies of blood wrote: Strawman? You apply a rule to a squad and change their loadout does that change the squad's name? Cultists plus in the same way that giving any unit a usr or additional rules/options by way of an HQ or special rule is unit plus.
I call them plague zombies but Plague zombies are defined page 61 as Chaos cultists. In the same line as being defined as cultists they are also not allowed to have options.
Basic reading shows you the answer.
So the Chaos Cultist entry in the codex tells you that Chaos Cultists have Feel No Pain, Slow & Purposeful, Fearless, and cannot purchase options? Oh wait, that bit of basic reading is under the PLAGUE ZOMBIES entry.
The Chaos Cultist entry in the codex has a whole slew of options, including increasing the unit size to 35. And when the army includes Typhus, ANY Chaos Cultist unit can be nominated to be Plague Zombies. Once nominated, THAT unit of Plague Zombies aka Chaos Cultists with FnP, S&P, and Fearless are unable to purchase options.
Plauge Zombies are NOT Chaos Cultists. Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with a slew of USR's and the inability to purchase options. Does the entry for Chaos Cultists include those USR's? Does the entry for Chaos Cultists prohibit the purchase of options?
Chaos Cultist =/= Chaos Cultist with USR's and restriction on purchains options.
I just blew up your argument with your own reasoning. Deal with it.
As per page 61 of the codex "Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists"
Way to half-quote the rule and leave out all the additional rules that differentiates Chaos Cultists that are Plague Zombies from Chaos Cultists.
Tyr Grimtooth wrote: Way to half-quote the rule and leave out all the additional rules that differentiates Chaos Cultists that are Plague Zombies from Chaos Cultists.
I quoted the relevant part. You are trying to say that a Box Tortoise is different from a Box Turtle, because the name is different. Adding USR's to a unit does not make it a different unit. If I take a SMHQ that replaces chapter tactics with a USR are tactical squads nor longer tactical squads?
Tyr Grimtooth wrote: Way to half-quote the rule and leave out all the additional rules that differentiates Chaos Cultists that are Plague Zombies from Chaos Cultists.
I quoted the relevant part. You are trying to say that a Box Tortoise is different from a Box Turtle, because the name is different. Adding USR's to a unit does not make it a different unit. If I take a SMHQ that replaces chapter tactics with a USR are tactical squads nor longer tactical squads?
Do we need to go down a checklist? Alright then:
Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have FnP? No.
Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have S&P? No.
Are Chaos Cultist Fearless? No.
Are Chaos Cultist prohibited from purchasing options? No.
So once again, where do you find all those things? The entry for Plague Zombies.
Prior to nominating a unit of Chaos Cultists as Plague Zombies, do they have the above rules and restrictions? No.
After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies, did they as Plague Zombies choose and purchase the option to increase the unit size? No.
Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have FnP? No.
Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have S&P? No.
Are Chaos Cultist Fearless? No.
Are Chaos Cultist prohibited from purchasing options? No.
So once again, where do you find all those things? The entry for Plague Zombies.
Prior to nominating a unit of Chaos Cultists as Plague Zombies, do they have the above rules and restrictions? No.
After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies, did they as Plague Zombies choose and purchase the option to increase the unit size? No.
RAW adhered to and followed.
The same logic is as to why there can be a unit of 35.
Prior to nominating, do they have the above rules and restrictions? No.
Purchase 25 more cultists.
Nominate.
After they have been nominated, did they as Plague Zombies choose and purchase the option to increase the unit size? No.
Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have FnP? No.
Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have S&P? No.
Are Chaos Cultist Fearless? No.
Are Chaos Cultist prohibited from purchasing options? No.
So once again, where do you find all those things? The entry for Plague Zombies.
Prior to nominating a unit of Chaos Cultists as Plague Zombies, do they have the above rules and restrictions? No.
After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies, did they as Plague Zombies choose and purchase the option to increase the unit size? No.
RAW adhered to and followed.
The same logic is as to why there can be a unit of 35.
Prior to nominating, do they have the above rules and restrictions? No.
Purchase 25 more cultists.
Nominate.
After they have been nominated, did they as Plague Zombies choose and purchase the option to increase the unit size? No.
Well one of Typhus's special rules, but under a Plague Zombies heading more or less.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other can of worms that using the "nominate" mechanic is that when you build your army list, you build it with Chaos Cultists. You then choose to nominate a Chaos Cultist unit to be Plague Zombies with no defined time given. So as I mentioned,
I could show up at a tournament with Typhus, 3 full squads of Chaos Cultists, and 3 squads of PM. For my first game I could nominate 1, 2, or 3 squads of Chaos Cultists as Plague Zombies depending on mission and opponent. The next game I could then nominate 1, 2, or 3 squads of Chaos Cultists as Plague Zombies depending on the second mission and/or opponent.
What this boils down to, it is not as clear as some people try to make it out to be, and needs to be FAQ'd. Additionally they need to clarify, and hopefully codify the nominate mechanic.
Angryface wrote: What this boils down to, it is not as clear as some people try to make it out to be, and needs to be FAQ'd. Additionally they need to clarify, and hopefully codify the nominate mechanic.
Most probably errata us to add in the word "weapon" between "no" and "options".
Seriously. Epic brainfart by kelly's trained typing chimp, or a rushjob by the editor when compressing the cultist entry, ie not letting the upgrade with x additional cultists for y points each, be written above rhe options.
Not having the book yet though, so where is the upgrade with x members stated in other unit entries?
My math might be off aswell, but IF this actually turns out to be GWs intention, to have max 10 zombies in a squad, wouldn't that just make them way worse, (slower, less durable, unable to shoot) than a 35 strong squad of cultists with MoN?
This is wishlisting, but I REALLY hope they just errata as stated above, and lets zombies be marked by our favourite grandfather. Heck, isn't being turned into a zombie a way of getting marked by nurgle?
Ah well. RAW stands untill FAQed/erratad. Thank papa nurgle I'm not attending a tourney before then, and our group houseruled it unanimosly that I could get 35zombies for our cinematic beer & pretzells games, but no marks, 'till the FAQ hits.
Where are you finding rules for order of operation for army building? They don't exist. Any order of operations implied are comletely made up. Granted, they are based on logical assumptions, but they're still assumptions.
So with the rules we know as they exist, creating an army is 1 step. There are no substeps. So all rules for creating an army apply prior to finishing it. This makes Typhus' rule apply to the cultists and makes purchasing more of them illegal as they are options.
As for RAI being hordes of zombies? Let's think about this. The best thing to kill a plague zombie would be S6 AP6 or better weapons. The best army at this would be Eldar. We'll take the best senario. 3 squads of 2 warwalkers with 2 farseers w/ guide. This provides 24 S6 shots for each walked, 72 shots total. 2/3 of these shots are TL.
TL shots per squad:
24 BS3 = 12 hits
reroll 6 BS 3 = 6 hits
18 hits total
2s to wound = 15 wounds
2 squads = 30 wounds
Conclusion: Kills 1 squad a turn. This doesn't even take into account cover.
Other strong shooting squads w/out S6
20 strong noise marines w/ 19 sonic blasters.
For fun let's add in the +1S psykic power
57 S5 BS4 shots 2s to wound ignore cover
38 hits
31.3 wounds
Conclusion: Can't kill a squad. This does come with the benefit of only being 1 squad of shooting. At this point you can bring it down in CC and up to 2 squads can be shreded like this. Still can have 4 more.
Someone correct me if you'd like, but I can't find any squad that does more damage at range than this.
Overall, I'd say any all-comers list would be pretty hard pressed to kill 210 of these guys. And that's only 900 points. There's plenty of room for other units that can hammer.
This says to me that 10 cultists is in fact RAI.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm sorry, I didn't even add in FNP for the noise marine. That's 20.87 dead.... not enough.
At least Kelly didnt make the mistake of calling the plague zombies, followers of nurgle, then we would be arguing about whether itll count in tally of pestilence.... but if he did I could definatly see hampering down that unit size...
I don't see anything OP about large squads of zombies. Necrons can scarab farm and Tyranids can poop gaunts - you're not paying points for these other than the Spyders and Tervigons which is typically offset by the sheer amounts they both have the potential to create.
I'm fairly certain this will be covered when the errata is released.
Sothas wrote: Where are you finding rules for order of operation for army building? They don't exist. Any order of operations implied are comletely made up. Granted, they are based on logical assumptions, but they're still assumptions.
So with the rules we know as they exist, creating an army is 1 step. There are no substeps.
That's obviously wrong. Building an army is done in several sub-steps which are often order dependent, e.g. you buy options after purchasing the cultist unit. The same is true for zombie nomination, as that clearly happens after having purchased the cultist unit.
Sothas wrote: Where are you finding rules for order of operation for army building? They don't exist. Any order of operations implied are comletely made up. Granted, they are based on logical assumptions, but they're still assumptions.
So with the rules we know as they exist, creating an army is 1 step. There are no substeps.
That's obviously wrong. Building an army is done in several sub-steps which are often order dependent, e.g. you buy options after purchasing the cultist unit. The same is true for zombie nomination, as that clearly happens after having purchased the cultist unit.
Building an army consists of trying to stuff as much units into the points available. You judggle it around, if there is any order of operations it's this.
1. Choose army.
2. Choose points maximum.
3. Play around with selections to max min everything.
4. Figure out what to do with the last 10 or less points and rebalance accordingly.
5. Have army list.
There is no order of operations when it comes to effects on the foc or units. They just are. You don't put 3 WG packs in the elites slot and 6GH in the troops slots and then take Grimnar cos then you have 9 troops. A list must be internally consistent with it's rules and the special rules that it includes. You cannot have a list that breaks the rules.
Now if nomination takes place during list building there is no question that it is a 10 man squad of cultists that become zombies. But Nos is right that it isn't spelled out when that happens, it is most likely to be decided to be during list creation for tournaments until the faq or errata comes out. But that being said, a unit of cultists with no options is still a ten man squad.
Actually looking over the rules, I think though this is more inferred than explicit, that since the cultists cannot purchase options when zombified that it must be done during the list building. Otherwise the "cannot purchase options" has no meaning, the nomination of a unit at the start of a game excludes the ability to take options. The only time a unit takes options is while writing the list, ergo the nomination of zombies or not happens then.
liturgies of blood wrote: Actually looking over the rules, I think though this is more inferred than explicit, that since the cultists cannot purchase options when zombified that it must be done during the list building. Otherwise the "cannot purchase options" has no meaning, the nomination of a unit at the start of a game excludes the ability to take options. The only time a unit takes options is while writing the list, ergo the nomination of zombies or not happens then.
Perhaps the nomination is meant to happen at any time, during list building and afterwards, and the restriction just limits the upgrades during that first time period.
So Minx do you mean that you can either only nominate a 10 man squad to be zombies during building or nominate any squad up to a 35 mans squad later on?
I still think it's possible to upgrade a cultist unit any way you want and then nominate them as plague zombies. That way they lose the additional weapons and special rules, gain the zombie rules and keep their upgraded number.
I should have clarified
the restriction just limits the upgrades during that first time period.
I love reading the delusional reasons people put for why they can break the rules with their new bandwagon book.
It doesn't matter, 10 cultists with MON and aren't fearless are far better at holding objectives than 10 zombies, simply by the reason that the cultists are higher toughness and can go to ground.
Go ahead and buy your 35 man zombie unit, I don't care, but when the FAQ tells you that you can't do it, don't come crying to the forums.
juraigamer wrote: I love reading the delusional reasons people put for why they can break the rules with their new bandwagon book.
It doesn't matter, 10 cultists with MON and aren't fearless are far better at holding objectives than 10 zombies, simply by the reason that the cultists are higher toughness and can go to ground.
Go ahead and buy your 35 man zombie unit, I don't care, but when the FAQ tells you that you can't do it, don't come crying to the forums.
Were I agree the rules by RAW say you can only have 10 zombies the FAQ isn't going tell you you can only have 10 as one of the GW guys army's from some play testing picks has squads of 15 in size if not larger. So long term they will be able to up squad size with a F&Q but for sure as RAW sits they cant.
I don't understand why people come up with these ideas of "pre list building phase, etc" when none of these things exist as per the rules. The only thing that exists is your army list at the beginning of the game. That is the only distinction the game makes. There is no list building phase, and there are not phases within that. The rules in the BRB only guide us when we already have a completed list that we can play with. Any arguments saying that there are other phases is going on a tangent that truly has no substance.
I'm not getting worked up, but I'm really hoping to be able to make a horror army. 2-3 zombie hordes slowly advancing up the field, flanked by hideous spawns rushing down the sides, followed by humanity's finest, corrupted beyond reason, allied daemons appearing out of thin air in the midst of the enemy, and finally the Herald himself, Typhus appearing with a bang with his Gravemaker terminator bodyguards to deliver the final blow with the sweep of his scythe.
Heck, if zombies aren't Faqed, I'll probably run them in ten man groups, and taking advantage of the second FoC at 2k. Heck, 2x35, or 7x10 doesn't matter too much...
liturgies of blood wrote: Problem with that stance is that the unit still has purchased options. In my mind it doesn't gel with the rules.
You have a serious disconnect between which unit purchased what.
What were Plague Zombies before they were nominated to become Plague Zombies? Chaos Cultists.
Do Chaos Cultists have the valid and legal option to increase their unit size to 35? Yes.
So please explain how you believe that Plague Zombies are purchasing the option to increase their unit size to 35. Please explain how the Plague Zombies are purchasing anything when they do not even have any options listed much less a unit entry.
Actually just tell me how an option purchased for a Chaos Cultist unit is an option purchased for a Plague Zombies unit.
The entry is clearly talking about individual zombies when it talks about purchasing options. Take a look:
"Plague zombies are are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel no Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options. They are armed with a single close combat weapon...
Notice the use of THEY referring to "Plague Zombies" in the previous sentence. If "plague zombies" meant the squad, then the second sentence says the whole squad has one single close combat weapon. Obviously, it means each are armed with a single close combat weapon, which therefore means the previous sentence was saying that individual zombies can not purchase options.
Cultists purchase the Options, then get nominated.
Therefore, Zombies did NOT purchase any options.
Purchasing something that later cannot be purchased does not make it illegal, as long as you purchases it before it was made illegal to purchase. No where does it say that it is illegal to have PREVIOUSLY purchased options...
Either case, in a fun game, why the hell not allow it. In a tournament you have no say.
As far as phases during list building, I don't know who is saying that there are but you would have to in fact has a unit of cultists before nominating them meaning there is an order of operations.
At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!
And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.
Nos pointed it out first, nomination of a Chaos Cultist unit to become Plague Zombies is given no specific timeline, however we must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists. That prerequisate trumps all. However the actual mechanic of nomination could be when army lists are exchanged or even before deployment.
For example, when does Deathleaper do his little Out to Get Me leadership drop thingy? Or how about Dante's cripple effect on an opposing IC? The two that really pop into my head are Wolf Priests declaring what is their preferred enemy or who will be Ulrik the Slayer's pupil.
So until a FAQ is issued, the real conflict is not 35 man Plague Zombie units, but when do you nominate Chaos Cultist units to be Plague Zombies. As it stands a Typhus player can nominate how many of his Chaos Cultist units will be Plague Zombies depending on mission and/or opponent and then deploy as such.
Cultists purchase the Options, then get nominated.
Therefore, Zombies did NOT purchase any options.
Purchasing something that later cannot be purchased does not make it illegal, as long as you purchases it before it was made illegal to purchase. No where does it say that it is illegal to have PREVIOUSLY purchased options...
Either case, in a fun game, why the hell not allow it. In a tournament you have no say.
As far as phases during list building, I don't know who is saying that there are but you would have to in fact has a unit of cultists before nominating them meaning there is an order of operations.
Painboyz cannot purchase certain Nob Wargear.
Nob purchases the Wargear and then gets upgraded to a Painboy.
Therefore, the Painboy did not purchase the Wargear.
Exact same situation, which GW said "they cannot have the items, deal with it" (OK they didn't say that exactly but...). I've already stated that i'd allow it because heck, I tend to run a Scatter Laser heavy army (I generally play aganst Horde armies), however, I also said that as it is currently written, no more than 10 Zombies.
just my 2 cents on this, i have NEVER seen or head of adding more models to a unit as "purchase options". that seems to refere to any weapons they might have/get because of the whole "any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death!" so i would infer that its talking about no auto guns/stubbers or the like.
Cultists purchase the Options, then get nominated.
Therefore, Zombies did NOT purchase any options.
Purchasing something that later cannot be purchased does not make it illegal, as long as you purchases it before it was made illegal to purchase. No where does it say that it is illegal to have PREVIOUSLY purchased options...
Either case, in a fun game, why the hell not allow it. In a tournament you have no say.
As far as phases during list building, I don't know who is saying that there are but you would have to in fact has a unit of cultists before nominating them meaning there is an order of operations.
Painboyz cannot purchase certain Nob Wargear.
Nob purchases the Wargear and then gets upgraded to a Painboy.
Therefore, the Painboy did not purchase the Wargear.
Exact same situation, which GW said "they cannot have the items, deal with it" (OK they didn't say that exactly but...). I've already stated that i'd allow it because heck, I tend to run a Scatter Laser heavy army (I generally play aganst Horde armies), however, I also said that as it is currently written, no more than 10 Zombies.
Instead of just parapharasing the Nob/Painboy rule, how about actually posting it up. People keep saying it is the same rationale and circumstances, yet it isn't.
Ok now you are posting up a FAQ that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Post up the rules for Nob/Painboy and we can see how GW ruled it for a Nob/Paninboy via their FAQ.
Then we can completely disregard it as Chaos Cultist/Plague Zombies are not Nobs/Painboys.
Tyr Grimtooth wrote: Ok now you are posting up a FAQ that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Post up the rules for Nob/Painboy and we can see how GW ruled it for a Nob/Paninboy via their FAQ.
Then we can completely disregard it as Chaos Cultist/Plague Zombies are not Nobs/Painboys.
I'm confused with what you are asking for. The part in the Ork code where it says "One Nob may be a Painboy............+XX points"? If that is not what you want you need to clarify.
Attomsk wrote: The entry is clearly talking about individual zombies when it talks about purchasing options. Take a look:
"Plague zombies are are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel no Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options. They are armed with a single close combat weapon...
Notice the use of THEY referring to "Plague Zombies" in the previous sentence. If "plague zombies" meant the squad, then the second sentence says the whole squad has one single close combat weapon. Obviously, it means each are armed with a single close combat weapon, which therefore means the previous sentence was saying that individual zombies can not purchase options.
Q.E.D
Line 2 is about what the unit is and what rules it has. It deals with the unit not the individual models. Since the cannot purchase options is in that line your argument doesn't scan with the RAW.
Line 3 what the individual models are armed with. So even though the basic cultist due to line 2 could still have an autogun or whatever, this line clears up their armaments.
You have a serious disconnect between which unit purchased what.
What were Plague Zombies before they were nominated to become Plague Zombies? Chaos Cultists.
Do Chaos Cultists have the valid and legal option to increase their unit size to 35? Yes.
So please explain how you believe that Plague Zombies are purchasing the option to increase their unit size to 35. Please explain how the Plague Zombies are purchasing anything when they do not even have any options listed much less a unit entry.
Actually just tell me how an option purchased for a Chaos Cultist unit is an option purchased for a Plague Zombies unit.
You have a serious disconnect between what the rules say and what you say but I keep a civil tongue in my arguments. Plague Zombies are cultists, the rules tell us this. The cultists entry has listed under options adding men. This means that adding men is purchasing an option. To have a unit of cultists not purchase options you cannot have more men.
Please explain where that logical train breaks down.
The answer to your question is that you are purchasing options for zombies when you try to nominate a unit with more than 10 cultists to be zombies.
The logical train breaks down where you think they are the same and that when the Chaos Cultist purchases the perfectly legal option to increase their unit size it somehow brands them with a scarlet "P" that carries over to when they are nominated to become Plague Zombies.
All Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with FnP/SnP/Fearless/option restrictions. Not all Chaos Cultists are Plague Zombies.
Read the above a few hundred times so it will sink in so you will understand that the Chaos Cultists that ARE Plague Zombies are not the same Chaos Cultists that you purchased the option to increase the unit size to 35.
Listen you can jump up and down and cry all you like but when you augment the cultists with the zombie rules you have to look at what the zombie rules say. If the unit you nominate to be plague zombies is not the same unit that paid the points to have 35 men in, what cultist squad did you nominate to be a zombie squad in your army?
Never have I said that all cultists are zombies, what I have said is that NO 35 man cultist squad is eligible to be zombies.
So you agree that zombies cannot have options and the units that typhus' rule nominates to be zombies cannot have options. You just don't agree that zomies are chaos cultists at all in any way anymore when it comes to an argument.
I hate to bring facts to a debate cos it's like bringing a gun to a knife fight but here is the rule in full.
Any Chaos Cultist units (see the army list, pg 95) in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies.
Look at page 95, now back to me, now back to typus, now me. The units are nominated not changed to or anything else. Since the line refers to army it can be assumed that this is not an option to take at the start of a game like putting additional units into reserves or the like and would have some impact on the writing of the list.
Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options.
The unit is still a cultist unit, it has the usr's. The cannot purchase options part is refering to the unit, this denies any aspect of it being individual model upgrades. Since a during the writing of a list is the only time you purchase upgrades and the rule does not say discards all weapons upgrades or discard all options unit is assumed to never been allowed to take them.
Happy has pointed out how Nobs work with a painboss, you should look at that instead of disregarding it offhand.
They are armed with a single close combat weapon -any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing meir victims to death!
Why is it that you allow a unit of 35 to take options, so heavy stubbers etc before nominating them to be zombies taking away all their options but not the extra men?
liturgies of blood wrote: I doubt that, 6th ed has tried to remove tarpits as much as it could. I assume zombies are easy to wound tough to wipe off the table stuff rather than cultists that are comparably easy to deal with. If so why would 6th ed's 1st codex piss on the work that they did with the rulebook.
By removing fearless wounds from the game, I'd say that there's at least one fact against your argument about removing tarpit units. That being said, I think it was intentional that zombies are limited to 10 per unit. RAW is 10, and I can't see the major tournaments overturning RAW in this case.
liturgies of blood wrote: Listen you can jump up and down and cry all you like but when you augment the cultists with the zombie rules you have to look at what the zombie rules say. If the unit you nominate to be plague zombies is not the same unit that paid the points to have 35 men in, what cultist squad did you nominate to be a zombie squad in your army?
Never have I said that all cultists are zombies, what I have said is that NO 35 man cultist squad is eligible to be zombies.
So you agree that zombies cannot have options and the units that typhus' rule nominates to be zombies cannot have options. You just don't agree that zomies are chaos cultists at all in any way anymore when it comes to an argument.
I hate to bring facts to a debate cos it's like bringing a gun to a knife fight but here is the rule in full.
Any Chaos Cultist units (see the army list, pg 95) in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies.
Look at page 95, now back to me, now back to typus, now me. The units are nominated not changed to or anything else. Since the line refers to army it can be assumed that this is not an option to take at the start of a game like putting additional units into reserves or the like and would have some impact on the writing of the list.
Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options.
The unit is still a cultist unit, it has the usr's. The cannot purchase options part is refering to the unit, this denies any aspect of it being individual model upgrades. Since a during the writing of a list is the only time you purchase upgrades and the rule does not say discards all weapons upgrades or discard all options unit is assumed to never been allowed to take them.
Happy has pointed out how Nobs work with a painboss, you should look at that instead of disregarding it offhand.
They are armed with a single close combat weapon -any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing meir victims to death!
Why is it that you allow a unit of 35 to take options, so heavy stubbers etc before nominating them to be zombies taking away all their options but not the extra men?
When you nominate a unit of Chaos Cultists to become Plague Zombies, they become Plague Zombies which are Chaos Cultists with a specific set of USR's that cannot purchase options. They are not the same Chaos Cultists because NOW they are Plague Zombies that are Chaos Cultists with a specific set of USR's and they cannot purchase options.
Did the Chaos Cultist unit prior to being nominated have that specific set of USR's? No. Was the Chaos Cultist unit prohibited from purchasing options? No. Do they even have the same unit name? No. They are not the same!
And no I do not agree that Plague Zombies cannot have options. Plague Zombies CANNOT PURCHASE OPTIONS. That is my point; at no time did the unit of Plague Zombies unit purchase the option to increase the Chaos Cultist unit size to 35 nor at no time did the Plague Zombie unit purchase the option to increase the Plague Zombie unit to 35. The only unit that purchased the option to increase the unit size was the Chaos Cultist unit, which was a valid and legal option for them before being nominated.
I have disregarded Happy's point because it is irrelevant. A Painboy is not dependent on a HQ special rule. A painboy is an upgrade to a mob of Nobs, he is not nominated and he actually has a point cost associated with him. Last but not least, he is an Ork with Ork rules and an Ork FAQ, not a Chaos Cultist or a Plague Zombie.
Ranged and melee weapons are specifically addressed by the rule. They go out of their way to address what happens to such items like a heavy stubber and as I pointed out they prevent the Plague Zombies from repurchasing them again. Do they specifically address unit size? Do they specifically address Cultist champions? No once again for both of them.
Your attempts at making the rules assocaiated with Chaos Cultists that are Plague Zombies and Chaos Cultists has been trounced. At no time can you show that the Plague Zombies chose or purchased the Chaos Cultist option of increasing the unit size to 35. I even used your own point of "Cultists Plus" to shut down your argument. Please try something new.
At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!
And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.
I find it hilarious that you are saying that RAW order of operations is an attempt at a smoke screen which has no argument, yet your entire argument is based on an order of operations from your interpretation. So which is it? You keep saying that Plague Zombies can't purchase options, but somehow they can take options. Plague Zombies are Cultists who cannot purchase options and have a CCW. If they can't purchase the upgrade then how can they take the upgrade?
I don't see how they didn't pay for it before they were nominated. So let's follow your order of operations. I pay for the Chaos Cultists with Options then nominate them as Zombies, which by RAW cannot purchase options, but they just did purchase options. It makes no sense, because I cannot pump points into a unit that's a Zombie. That's what RAW says. It doesn't say your order of operations which makes no sense.
The way I see it is, that yes you can buy options for your cultists. Which is fine. However as soon as you have nominated them they have become Zombies, so any options they have purchased become null and void. Meaning they are reduced down to 10 man size.
RAW only works well in ambiguous situations. This is an example of RAW gone bad. If you are 24/7 RAW than you have the balls to tell your opponent his Wraithsword does nothing for it has no rules. Only wraithblades have rules. Be a good person. Don't be a dbag.
At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!
And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.
I find it hilarious that you are saying that RAW order of operations is an attempt at a smoke screen which has no argument, yet your entire argument is based on an order of operations from your interpretation. So which is it? You keep saying that Plague Zombies can't purchase options, but somehow they can take options. Plague Zombies are Cultists who cannot purchase options and have a CCW. If they can't purchase the upgrade then how can they take the upgrade?
I don't see how they didn't pay for it before they were nominated. So let's follow your order of operations. I pay for the Chaos Cultists with Options then nominate them as Zombies, which by RAW cannot purchase options, but they just did purchase options. It makes no sense, because I cannot pump points into a unit that's a Zombie. That's what RAW says. It doesn't say your order of operations which makes no sense.
When do Chaos Cultist become Chaos Cultists with specific USR's and not able to PURCHASE options?
When they are nominated as Plague Zombies.
So when are Chaos Cultist no longer able to PURCHASE the option to increase the unit size?
After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies.
The rule gives you no restriction on purchasing the option to increase unit size as a Chaos Cultist. Only after you have been nominated does the restriction kick in and the rule doesn't apply retroactively. The rule is specific in that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. It isn't that they cannot have options, just that after being nominated as Plague Zombies they can no longer purchase options.
At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!
And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.
I find it hilarious that you are saying that RAW order of operations is an attempt at a smoke screen which has no argument, yet your entire argument is based on an order of operations from your interpretation. So which is it? You keep saying that Plague Zombies can't purchase options, but somehow they can take options. Plague Zombies are Cultists who cannot purchase options and have a CCW. If they can't purchase the upgrade then how can they take the upgrade?
I don't see how they didn't pay for it before they were nominated. So let's follow your order of operations. I pay for the Chaos Cultists with Options then nominate them as Zombies, which by RAW cannot purchase options, but they just did purchase options. It makes no sense, because I cannot pump points into a unit that's a Zombie. That's what RAW says. It doesn't say your order of operations which makes no sense.
When do Chaos Cultist become Chaos Cultists with specific USR's and not able to PURCHASE options?
When they are nominated as Plague Zombies.
So when are Chaos Cultist no longer able to PURCHASE the option to increase the unit size?
After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies.
The rule gives you no restriction on purchasing the option to increase unit size as a Chaos Cultist. Only after you have been nominated does the restriction kick in and the rule doesn't apply retroactively. The rule is specific in that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. It isn't that they cannot have options, just that after being nominated as Plague Zombies they can no longer purchase options.
so you are arguing that there is an order of operations?
I don't see how the zombies didn't pay for the options when it's still the same unit. That unit is still purchasing the options no matter how it boils down.
At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!
And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.
I find it hilarious that you are saying that RAW order of operations is an attempt at a smoke screen which has no argument, yet your entire argument is based on an order of operations from your interpretation. So which is it? You keep saying that Plague Zombies can't purchase options, but somehow they can take options. Plague Zombies are Cultists who cannot purchase options and have a CCW. If they can't purchase the upgrade then how can they take the upgrade?
I don't see how they didn't pay for it before they were nominated. So let's follow your order of operations. I pay for the Chaos Cultists with Options then nominate them as Zombies, which by RAW cannot purchase options, but they just did purchase options. It makes no sense, because I cannot pump points into a unit that's a Zombie. That's what RAW says. It doesn't say your order of operations which makes no sense.
When do Chaos Cultist become Chaos Cultists with specific USR's and not able to PURCHASE options?
When they are nominated as Plague Zombies.
So when are Chaos Cultist no longer able to PURCHASE the option to increase the unit size?
After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies.
The rule gives you no restriction on purchasing the option to increase unit size as a Chaos Cultist. Only after you have been nominated does the restriction kick in and the rule doesn't apply retroactively. The rule is specific in that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. It isn't that they cannot have options, just that after being nominated as Plague Zombies they can no longer purchase options.
so you are arguing that there is an order of operations?
I don't see how the zombies didn't pay for the options when it's still the same unit. That unit is still purchasing the options no matter how it boils down.
You can't nominate a Chaos Cultist unit to be Plague Zombies if you don't have a Chaos Cultist to nominate in the first place. So call it what you will, but that is the basic mechanic of the rule.
How is it possibly the same unit? Once nominated they are not longer Chaos Cultists, but Chaos Cultists with specific USR's, cannot purchase options, and are called Plague Zombies. Please justify how they are the same unit.
When do Chaos Cultist become Chaos Cultists with specific USR's and not able to PURCHASE options?
When they are nominated as Plague Zombies.
So when are Chaos Cultist no longer able to PURCHASE the option to increase the unit size?
After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies.
The rule gives you no restriction on purchasing the option to increase unit size as a Chaos Cultist. Only after you have been nominated does the restriction kick in and the rule doesn't apply retroactively. The rule is specific in that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. It isn't that they cannot have options, just that after being nominated as Plague Zombies they can no longer purchase options.
If purchasing options is the issue when does nomination happen? If it is in the writing of the list like it clearly implies then all of this is moot. It is not that they can no longer purchase options it is that they cannot purchase options, these are two very different things. You have added in a word to satisfy your interpretation of the rules.
Cannot purchase options refers to list creation and includes all options, can no longer purchase options refers in your mind to whatever is dealt with when it says zombies have a single ccw.
In either case they have to happen during list creation, so typhus' rule is not retroactive it happens during the period you spend working out what you can fit into your list. Otherwise it would not say cannot purchase options it wouls say "are only armed with..." and leave it at that.
Why is it that in your mind certain options are more valid than others?
Yes there is no point were you have to nominate them, as it stands you could nominate them during a game it seems.
Yet, zombies cannot purchase options. Just like a character that changes into a spawn or a demon prince, they have restrictions on what gear and rules they have when they change from cultist to zombie, and restrictions on being able to purchase options. Seeing that buying more guys is under something specifically called "options"...
Yeah... So to pro-35'ers are saying I should care that they nominated their cultists to be zombies the day the codex was released, the day before a tournament, or after they have purchased options?
As an opponent, I care not. If I look at an army list that has 35 zombies in 1 unit, I'm seeing an illegal unit. I don't care about a time stamp as to when the nomination happened or order of operations. It's a zombie unit that ended up with options which is against RAWIMO.
hyv3mynd wrote: Yeah... So to pro-35'ers are saying I should care that they nominated their cultists to be zombies the day the codex was released, the day before a tournament, or after they have purchased options?
As an opponent, I care not. If I look at an army list that has 35 zombies in 1 unit, I'm seeing an illegal unit. I don't care about a time stamp as to when the nomination happened or order of operations. It's a zombie unit that ended up with options which is against RAWIMO.
And you would wrong because that is not what the rule says.
The rule does not say Plague Zombies cannot have options. The rule says that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. At no time did a 35 strong unit of Plague Zombies purchase the option to increase the unit size to 35.
Happyjew wrote: Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.
Precedent set that order of operations does not matter.
A nob may have these upgrades. A painboy may not. You may not upgrade a nob with these items then "nominate" them and pay the points to make it a painboy with illegal options.
Using the "order of operations" loophole for zombies is the same. You're trying to end up with a unit that has options when the rules tell you this unit cannot have options.
Look, this is going to be FAQ'd for allowing full 35 man units of zombies. Phil Kelly was even talking about full squads of zombies to people at gamesday. I think its best that each gaming group make their own rules for now and wait for the FAQ.
By that logic I guess you can prebuy a Mark of Khorne too. Pity they couldnt prebuy power swords too.... If we are avoiding the rules, may as well go all the way.
The rule states that "can be nominated" it does not say when to nominate, after deployment, before deployment?
More importantly
This is actually huge! The rule says that Plague Zombies are "Any Chaos Cultists unit" and there is no army list addition to them so:
So as the rule states (or does not state) you can:
-Buy as many cultists as you want
-But all upgrades on them
-Field them as Cultists
-Nominate them to Zombies when ever you want! This just changes their special rules to Fearless, FnP and SaP, and are all equiped with 1x CCW. (and in case they have special weps or bolt pistol, etc lose it or them)
So what you do is you buy 35 pack of cultists, keep them as cultists until you actually need the FnP and fearless
Because there is no clear statement on order of actions this is just as legal or illegal as fielding just 10 zombies
Addition to this there is a way more funny stuff going on on CSM codex, for example Plague marine Champion cannot exchance his plague knife to melee weapon because it is not CCW, Noise Marine Champion cannot even get CCW,..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hyv3mynd wrote: Yeah... So to pro-35'ers are saying I should care that they nominated their cultists to be zombies the day the codex was released, the day before a tournament, or after they have purchased options?
As an opponent, I care not. If I look at an army list that has 35 zombies in 1 unit, I'm seeing an illegal unit. I don't care about a time stamp as to when the nomination happened or order of operations. It's a zombie unit that ended up with options which is against RAWIMO.
To your comment, there is no actual "spreadsheet" or unit info for Plague Zombies in the CSM codex, meaning that you have to buy Chaos Cultists, not Plague Zombies, and then after the purchase nominate them as Plague Zombies which gives them their special rules and equips them with just 1x CCW, no matter what they would otherwise have...
evilfish wrote:
Addition to this there is a way more funny stuff going on on CSM codex, for example Plague marine Champion cannot exchange his plague knife to melee weapon because it is not CCW, Noise Marine Champion cannot even get CCW,..
Plague knife is a Melee weapon and thus a CCW. Read the BRB page 50 under "Melee Type"
As for the Champion thing, I find this line of reasoning absurd. NOT saying, you Evilfish are absurd, or that it is even your line of reasoning. Just that to claim a Noise Champion is not a Marine is absurd.
The unit as a whole fall under the Unit Heading " Noise Marines" Just the box under neath has two profiles: one for Noise Marines and the other for Noise Champion doesn't make the Noise Champion, no longer a Marine.
Plague knife is a Melee weapon and thus a CCW. Read the BRB page 50 under "Melee Type"
As for the Champion thing, I find this line of reasoning absurd. NOT saying, you Evilfish are absurd, or that it is even your line of reasoning. Just that to claim a Noise Champion is not a Marine is absurd.
The unit as a whole fall under the Unit Heading " Noise Marines" Just the box under neath has two profiles: one for Noise Marines and the other for Noise Champion doesn't make the Noise Champion, no longer a Marine.
I totally agree with you but if we follow peoples way of thinking:
"Any Noise Marine" = Noise Marine
Noise Marine =/= Noise Champion (because they have different profiles)
This means that if the Noise Champion could take CCW, the rule should be written as "Any Noise Marine and Noise Champion" or "Any of Noise Marines"
airmang wrote: So was them writing "cannot purchase options" just a mistake and a waste of ink?
No, that was a deliberate choice. Another choice would have been "cannot have any options" or "any basic cultist unit without any options can be nominated as plague zombies".
I have to say that after following this thread since the beginning, that I am leaning towards the 10 man size limit. Here is my reasoning: I believe the context of the rule gives weight to the limit because they intentionally pointed you to the Army List page (95) where you can clearly see that adding more Cultists is listed under the "Options" section. They wanted you to go the page and look at the "Cultist" unit and see what are the "options" and that you can't have any if you want them to be Plague Zombies.
No Rules quotes or other examples to point at, I am just saying that taken in its context, I believe RAI was that it should only a unit of 10.
I don't know who thinks ten weak zombies with a FNP of 5+ is an objective holder even in cover they last one round of shooting and die when they get charged by anything! I mean even ripperswarms can hold longer vs blast weapons I see alot of people bitching cuz they play small expensize shooting forces and the idea of cleaning a table of mobs of anything seems daunting...but thats the point Typhus is a jerk and he wants to tarpit you till you get tired of rolling dice and eventually swear your soul to nurgle and it doesnt say when I nominate the units to Zombies so If i want I can just say"....uhm nvm now they are all zombies" just before the game starts when I see someone dropping that oh so clever three landraider army. btw in any zombie movie you ever watched ..ever..did they wander around in packs of ten and victoriously wade through small arms fire to grab pizza boxes for their dark god?
As of right now it appears there is nothing wrong with taking 35 dudes and going Cool zombies. Again there are no rules saying I cannot, as there is no time for when they must be nominated.
Attomsk wrote: Look, this is going to be FAQ'd for allowing full 35 man units of zombies. Phil Kelly was even talking about full squads of zombies to people at gamesday. I think its best that each gaming group make their own rules for now and wait for the FAQ.
I know what little weight this will have in YMDC, but I can toss another Phil Kelly anecdote on to the heap... The organizers of Feast of Blades apparently contacted Kelly to ask this exact question. He replied that Zombies can max out like any other Cultist unit. So yes: some guy on the Internet is telling you that he heard from a friend who heard from a TO at FoB that Phil Kelly says its OK. You can take that to the bank.
As of right now it appears there is nothing wrong with taking 35 dudes and going Cool zombies. Again there are no rules saying I cannot, as there is no time for when they must be nominated.
So I can keep them as 35 cultists and GTG behind an ADL for 2+ cover, then nominate them to become FnP fearless zombies once the enemy gets into assault range?
I´d be fine with the 35-man strong zombie unit - when have you ever seen a zombie movie where they roamed about in groups of 10 rather than the unyielding mob of undead? What self-respecting Zombie apocalypse would be limited to 10 guys...
He would go to ground before they become fearless. And then turn them into zombies. Clearly you didn't catch the sarcasm in his post as you *cannot* do this. He's literally making fun of you people and you don't even realize it.
Until this gets FAQ'd you *cannot* have plague zombie units above 10. It is clear and simple "No options" = Absolutely no options. Is adding models to the squad under options? You do the math.
Seriously half of you need to think about what you're saying. "Use common sense" etc. etc. How about use common sense and see that you can't take options and yet you're trying to take options.
He would go to ground before they become fearless. And then turn them into zombies. Clearly you didn't catch the sarcasm in his post as you *cannot* do this. He's literally making fun of you people and you don't even realize it.
Perhaps it is you who did not catch Ravenous D being facetious and it is you who does not realise that it is in fact HE who is making fun of you...
To respond to your statements....boy I wish I was.....
Look, the precedent is set in the FAQ already:
Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.
As in, you cannot give all these upgrades to a Nob and then elect to upgrade him to a Painboy and hope to keep it all. This is a parallel rule. There is no typo unless GW comes out and specifically says "hey, delete this part and add this to the entry."
This is just stupid, rule is perfectly clear. You cannot have more than ten zombies.
Now, in this case rules are silly, and I would be perfectly willing to go along with a houserule allowing 35 zombies if my opponent wanted to field them, unless they actually tried to argue that this is allowed by RAW.
Emp. wrote: To respond to your statements....boy I wish I was.....
Look, the precedent is set in the FAQ already:
Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.
As in, you cannot give all these upgrades to a Nob and then elect to upgrade him to a Painboy and hope to keep it all. This is a parallel rule. There is no typo unless GW comes out and specifically says "hey, delete this part and add this to the entry."
If you´ll look back, I´ve never disputed the RAW, I just believe that 6th edition needs to be taken less literally and interporated more when instances like this one occur.
Also, I would argue the case that using another armies´FAQ to make a point is bad practice, there may be a precedent, but it´s for a different army and therefore the new army´s FAQ may change this.
Not that I´m disputing you have RAW on your side, of course.
At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!
And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.
I find it hilarious that you are saying that RAW order of operations is an attempt at a smoke screen which has no argument, yet your entire argument is based on an order of operations from your interpretation. So which is it? You keep saying that Plague Zombies can't purchase options, but somehow they can take options. Plague Zombies are Cultists who cannot purchase options and have a CCW. If they can't purchase the upgrade then how can they take the upgrade?
I don't see how they didn't pay for it before they were nominated. So let's follow your order of operations. I pay for the Chaos Cultists with Options then nominate them as Zombies, which by RAW cannot purchase options, but they just did purchase options. It makes no sense, because I cannot pump points into a unit that's a Zombie. That's what RAW says. It doesn't say your order of operations which makes no sense.
When do Chaos Cultist become Chaos Cultists with specific USR's and not able to PURCHASE options?
When they are nominated as Plague Zombies.
So when are Chaos Cultist no longer able to PURCHASE the option to increase the unit size?
After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies.
The rule gives you no restriction on purchasing the option to increase unit size as a Chaos Cultist. Only after you have been nominated does the restriction kick in and the rule doesn't apply retroactively. The rule is specific in that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. It isn't that they cannot have options, just that after being nominated as Plague Zombies they can no longer purchase options.
so you are arguing that there is an order of operations?
I don't see how the zombies didn't pay for the options when it's still the same unit. That unit is still purchasing the options no matter how it boils down.
You can't nominate a Chaos Cultist unit to be Plague Zombies if you don't have a Chaos Cultist to nominate in the first place. So call it what you will, but that is the basic mechanic of the rule.
How is it possibly the same unit? Once nominated they are not longer Chaos Cultists, but Chaos Cultists with specific USR's, cannot purchase options, and are called Plague Zombies. Please justify how they are the same unit.
How isn't it the same unit? Just because my name is Edward now (for instance), doesn't mean that if I decide to change my name later to Steven I'm not the same person. Its still the same unit, but with a different name and special rules.
Again you are saying there is an order of operations yet you refute that there is.
nosferatu1001 wrote: The rules for it just tell you to nominate; there is no restriction on when you nominate, so you are perfectly free to nominate after upgrading.
Again, if you disagree please give an actual rule to counter it.
Let me first say that I would always allow a player to pay for more zombies and believe it should be FAQ'd as such. secondly I totally understand where you and others are coming from with the specification of nomination.
However your request to counter with a rule citation requires a rule citation to counter first. You asking for a counter to your interpretation of a procedure not directly listed anywhere. As it clearly states no options, and adding models is an option, you first need to come up with a viable citation to counter this. Again, I would always play it as the player can buy more models for the unit but it does not say you can or you can't. Only that you can't buy options for the unit no matter when it becomes zombie unit. If anything we should take that as if options are bought the unit can't be nominated as a plague zombie unit.
Dozer Blades wrote: I did not follow exactly what is your point but I'd really like to understand. Could you possibly break it down in more detail for me please?
I'm guessing you were referring to my post.
A unit is a unit. Just because you change what Special Rules it has, and its name changes doesn't mean its a completely different unit when one unit becomes another and gets a different name. When you purchase the Chaos Cultists its a unit. When it becomes a Zombie unit its still the same unit, with a different name and different special rules. If it bought wargear before hand it cannot become a Plague Zombie because the unit already purchased the upgrades.
At the end of the day there is no order of operations or phases that occur during the list building phase. There is only list building as a single phase and its pretty obvious that when you nominate a unit it is during list building. It is during list building because it says Zombies cannot purchase options. You cannot purchase an option during deployment or when you swap army lists. Options can only be purchased when you make the list.
There is a lot of truth to what you said but I don't entirely agree. Regardless I think it has lots of merit. Kudos to you my friend. And thanks for your timely response.
nosferatu1001 wrote: The rules for it just tell you to nominate; there is no restriction on when you nominate, so you are perfectly free to nominate after upgrading.
Again, if you disagree please give an actual rule to counter it.
Let me first say that I would always allow a player to pay for more zombies and believe it should be FAQ'd as such. secondly I totally understand where you and others are coming from with the specification of nomination.
However your request to counter with a rule citation requires a rule citation to counter first. You asking for a counter to your interpretation of a procedure not directly listed anywhere. As it clearly states no options, and adding models is an option, you first need to come up with a viable citation to counter this. Again, I would always play it as the player can buy more models for the unit but it does not say you can or you can't. Only that you can't buy options for the unit no matter when it becomes zombie unit. If anything we should take that as if options are bought the unit can't be nominated as a plague zombie unit.
It states Plague Zombies cannot take any options.
I upgrade to PZ after taking options. The PZ never took any options, only Chaos Cultists did. And as we know, PZ are Chaos Cultists WITH {} , meaning they are not Chaos Cultists
This exac tly follows the rules, as Typhus is not required to nominate a unit until during the game, if he wishes - well after any options have been made by the Chaos CUltists unit
So, again - there are rules, and Ive used them. You have to prove that you cannot do this, which requires showing either:
Plague Zombies ARE Chaos Cultists, exactly., Not Chaos Cultists "with"
OR
Typhus requires you to nominate a unit prior to the Chaos Cultists being allowed to take any options
No it says plage zombies are cultists and cannot take any options. That is different to plague zombies are cultists and plague zombies cannot take any options. The rules are that zombies are cultists that get x but cannot take y. They are called cultists in the same sentence that lists the bonus and penalties. You agree they are cultists with x but you fail to see that they are also chaso cultists without y.
Where does it say that he is not required to nominate until during the game? That is a clear case of "well the rules don't say I can't".
nosferatu1001 wrote: This exac tly follows the rules, as Typhus is not required to nominate a unit until during the game, if he wishes - well after any options have been made by the Chaos CUltists unit
You would have to show the rule that allows you to purchase options during a game for this logic to work.
Minx wrote: Where does it say he is required to nominate during list building?
By using the word purchase its implied. You can't purchase during the game and It states you nominate, they get X and cannot purchase options. Hence, this is all during list building.
They would not add a rule saying you cannot do something if you could never do it to begin with. Use your noggin.
Minx wrote: Where does it say he is required to nominate during list building?
By using the word purchase its implied. You can't purchase during the game and It states you nominate, they get X and cannot purchase options. Hence, this is all during list building.
They would not add a rule saying you cannot do something if you could never do it to begin with. Use your noggin.
They would include such an additional rule if the nomination can happen during list building AND at any other time. So, no it is not implied. Try again.
Besides, why didn't they restrict the kind of cultist unit that can be nominated as plague zombies in the first line of the rule instead of allowing any cultist unit.
nosferatu1001 wrote: This exac tly follows the rules, as Typhus is not required to nominate a unit until during the game, if he wishes - well after any options have been made by the Chaos CUltists unit
You would have to show the rule that allows you to purchase options during a game for this logic to work.
Not at all, false equivalence fallacy there
Nomination has no intrinsic requirement to be fixed at list building time, unlike purchasing options which has no allowance outside of list building. Meaning your logic is flawed.
Try again without making a fallacious argument. Find a rule stating either of my two requirements for my nomination to not suceed
LoB - dont ignore rules, PZ are NOT Chaos Cultists, they are CHaos Cultists WITH {USR}, meaning they are not the same unit at all.
They would include such an additional rule if the nomination can happen during list building AND at any other time. So, no it is not implied. Try again.
Besides, why didn't they restrict the kind of cultist unit that can be nominated as plague zombies in the first line of the rule instead of allowing any cultist unit.
(A) Which they did not include therefore it is at one and only time. So thank you for the backhanded comment but you only helped support my point.
(B) Because there is only one kind of cultist unit without options. No options and all cultists units are identical. Any just opens up the door to more than one. Example; if I have three cultist units, any of the three can become plagues but not does mean they all have to.
Minx wrote:Where does it say he is required to nominate during list building?
By using the word purchase its implied. You can't purchase during the game and It states you nominate, they get X and cannot purchase options. Hence, this is all during list building.
They would not add a rule saying you cannot do something if you could never do it to begin with. Use your noggin.
They would include such an additional rule if the nomination can happen during list building AND at any other time. So, no it is not implied. Try again.
(A) Which they did not include therefore it is at one and only time. So thank you for the backhanded comment but you only helped support my point.
Apparently you have misunderstood what i meant. I was referring to the no-purchase rule that you mentioned as the essential part of your argument.
Edit: They did not specify a time when nominations are meant to happen. In case it happens during list building the additional no-purchase rule regulates zombie upgrades.
Nomination has no intrinsic requirement to be fixed at list building time, unlike purchasing options which has no allowance outside of list building. Meaning your logic is flawed.
Then show me any other unit anywhere that can "purchase options" outside of the list building. Because that might be handy to bank some points in case a unit might need a melta or two. It is stated that they cannot purchase options after they are nominated.
Nomination has no intrinsic requirement to be fixed at list building time, unlike purchasing options which has no allowance outside of list building. Meaning your logic is flawed.
Then show me any other unit anywhere that can "purchase options" outside of the list building. Because that might be handy to bank some points in case a unit might need a melta or two. It is stated that they cannot purchase options after they are nominated.
Take 2 named SMHQ's ones that replace Combat Tactics IIRC with something else. Say Stubborn, or TL melts/Flamers.
How does that *definititvely* fix the only time when nomination can occur?
Oh, thats right, it doesnt. It just means that IF you choose to nominate during list building you cannot purchase any options.
Now find a rule saying nomination can ONLY occur during list building. Oh wait, no such rule exists, and you are mixing up a restriciton on purchasing options for a restriction on nomination, and making up rules out of thin air
Nomination has no intrinsic requirement to be fixed at list building time, unlike purchasing options which has no allowance outside of list building. Meaning your logic is flawed.
Then show me any other unit anywhere that can "purchase options" outside of the list building. Because that might be handy to bank some points in case a unit might need a melta or two. It is stated that they cannot purchase options after they are nominated.
Take 2 named SMHQ's ones that replace Combat Tactics IIRC with something else. Say Stubborn, or TL melts/Flamers.
You don't choose this at list building
Really, how many points does that cost ?
How does that *definititvely* fix the only time when nomination can occur?
Oh, thats right, it doesnt. It just means that IF you choose to nominate during list building you cannot purchase any options.
Now find a rule saying nomination can ONLY occur during list building. Oh wait, no such rule exists, and you are mixing up a restriciton on purchasing options for a restriction on nomination, and making up rules out of thin air
No, your just breaking apart a rule to try to create a loophole. The rule is written sequentially. 1. Nominate a unit. 2. That unit cannot purchase upgrades. (when are upgrades purchased?).
So, have you found a rule restricting when you can nominate? Because I've asked quite a few times now, and you keep avoiding actually answering.
Nominating doesnt cost anything either, so you still seem to have failed to produce a non-fallacious argument that doesnt rely on anything but very vague implication
So, have you found a rule restricting when you can nominate? Because I've asked quite a few times now, and you keep avoiding actually answering.
What part of sequential didnt you understand? You obviously buy options during list building and nomination comes before then.
1. Cultists are nominated to become Zombies.
2. Zombies cannot purchase upgrades.
3. Upgrades are purchased at list building.
If you can show me any single example of the ability to purchase an upgrade after the game has begun then you might have an argument. Until then your just avoiding the issue and double talking.
So, have you found a rule restricting when you can nominate? Because I've asked quite a few times now, and you keep avoiding actually answering.
Nominating doesnt cost anything either, so you still seem to have failed to produce a non-fallacious argument that doesnt rely on anything but very vague implication
So there is no restriction as to when to nominate a unit (effectively turn them into Plague zombies) ?
Indeed. Read the nomination requirements, and notice ALL they do is place a restriction on what you can perform after nominating (purchase options) - it does not actually place ANY RESTRICTION whatsoever on whenyou actually nominate
It's what Fragile is struggling with, because the rules do not actually say what they are claiming
In this game, it is *not* you can do it until you can't.
In Warhammer 40k the system of rules is: you cannot do it unless it says you *can*.
The rest is up for interpretation, but honestly this thread goes nowhere. The best thing to do is talk to your local TO, grab their advice/decision and run with that until a firm FAQ from Games Workshop is released.
Im not struggling with anything Nos. A rule written sequentially is typically intrepreted sequentially. I can see playing you it would go something like.
Nos Turn 1. The cultists move 6" and now I run d6.
Nos Turn 2. The cultists 6" and I run d6". Now that Im on that objective I GTG and nominate them to become zombies to get FNP, fearless. But its ok, I can't buy any upgrades for them now.
Yes, you are clearly struggling, as you have failed to actually read and comprehend the rule you are citing, because it does not say anything like what you are claiming
Again: a restriction on purchasing options after nominating is NOT a restriction on *when* you can nominate.
That is a true, factual statement, and one you are completely incapable of addressing. Until you do without running yet more fallacious "arguments' by, you dont have an argument.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Indeed. Read the nomination requirements, and notice ALL they do is place a restriction on what you can perform after nominating (purchase options) - it does not actually place ANY RESTRICTION whatsoever on whenyou actually nominate
It's what Fragile is struggling with, because the rules do not actually say what they are claiming
So can I nominate a unit of Cultist in Turn 3 of the game?
Emp. wrote: The best thing to do is talk to your local TO, grab their advice/decision and run with that until a firm FAQ from Games Workshop is released.
This is the only sane rational thing I've read in this thread so far. I'm sure if I come back after five more pages of nonsense it will still be the only rational thing said. This thread should be locked.
Yes, if you want to. Because the actual rule does not limit when you can nominate, just what is allowed after you nominate a unit.
Do I expect that it will stay as loose as that? No. I fully expect you have to nominate before deployment, when they FAQ this, but having spoken to PK at GD I know he certainly intended you to be able to add more zombies. So HIWPI is i would always let my opponent have as many cultists turned to zombies as they like, up to 35. I dont and wont run them myself - i dont like hordes, im always about the elite armies. Despite Fragiles attempts at impugning my rules standpoint by suggesting i have ulterior motives, in a classic attempt at deflecting attention from a rules-less argument
Emp. wrote: The best thing to do is talk to your local TO, grab their advice/decision and run with that until a firm FAQ from Games Workshop is released.
This is the only sane rational thing I've read in this thread so far. I'm sure if I come back after five more pages of nonsense it will still be the only rational thing said. This thread should be locked.
there is merit in determining what the rules actually say, as opposed to what people want them to say. I TO occasionally so i use this forum as a good exercise in determining what hte rules actually say, so when i have players asking for a ruling I can state the RAW and also, if needs be, produce a FAQ beforehand where I think RAQ falls short - usually by giving an unresolvable situation.
"ask your TO" and "wait for a FAQ" are good general advice, but useless when discussing actual rules - as useless as referring to TMIR
Dozer Blades wrote: goatboy says he heard from Phil Kelly that they go to 35. Apparently it was an oversight. I am going keep playing 35 knowing that it will be FAQd.
My dog barked at another dog and then looked at me funny but I think I heard him say that it's still only 10 until the FAQ. I think our sources are even credibility dontyathink?
No, given one is an appeal to authority, the other is humour.
I also spoke directly to PK, however that doesnt alter that RAW you can, indeed, go to 35 (24 better than 11!) because no limitation is made on when you nominate.
I am suggesting nothing Nos, your deliberately trying to interpret the rule based on your own personal feeling on how it works (based of your conversation with PK). You continue to ignore the fact that it states when you nominate, which is before you buy options. Buying options is done during list building. You have nothing RAW to support any of your statements.
I went to church the other day and prayed about it and God, who is omniscient, told me in no uncertain terms that it is RAW and that the nomination process is during the list building phase. We then went out for some pizza and brews.
Fragile wrote: I am suggesting nothing Nos, your deliberately trying to interpret the rule based on your own personal feeling on how it works (based of your conversation with PK). You continue to ignore the fact that it states when you nominate, which is before you buy options. Buying options is done during list building. You have nothing RAW to support any of your statements.
Please stop making up rules.
It staes a RESTRICTION on purchasing options AFTER you nominate
This does not in any way shape or form give you a restriction on when you can nominate, just on what happens after you do so
You continually ignore this point, as it demolishes what little argument you had.
Nos, when do you ever buy options once your forces are on the table top? I can't recall ever having the ability to purchase options once the game starts.
If you could purchase options after the game started then I could see what your saying.
Plague Zombies cannot purchase Options, correct?
To me (no longer saying this is RAW) this implies that you nominate the unit while building the list.
HOWEVER, assuming one can nominate the unit at any point (even in the middle of the game), once the game starts, can you buy Options for a unit? No. Therefore you have two restrictions on buying Options in the middle of the game.
Crablezworth wrote: Yeah I gotta say nosferatu, you're really reaching on this one. I usually make my list, like, before playing the game. Crazy I know.
Yep, and nothing in the rule for PZ requires you to nominate before purchasing options. It just points out what happens if you DO nominate before purchasing options
I quite like to play the rules as they are written, not how I think they are written because i havent read them clearly, despite having them explained over and over. Crazy i know.
It will do until one side manages to provide some rules to counter the very clear argument that has been presented - that a restriciton on purchasing options is not a restriction on nominating, no matter how many fallacious arguments are presented purporting to show this.
This just highlights how utterly #^@&ing stupid GW's lack of designer blogs is.
This one is a clear cut case the designer could answer in 10 seconds. GW is stuck in the 19th century.
However, the fluff says the units should be small (the plague doesn't become overwhelming until after Typhus leaves), the most defensible position in the rule is the "10" rule, and folks are arguing about it.
PK can respond to GB with "nope, it's 35", but GW can't issue a FAQ despite at least 3 thorny debates with the codex arising.
Nos, the problem is that you can't provide a precedent that supports your interpretation of the rules. In fact, I would say that there is circumstantial evidence against your version of the rule. That being said until some more clarification is presented it is up to the individuals to work out the mechanics. Just don't be surprised when people call BS.
You dont need precedent when you have clear permission - you are allowed, with no restrictions, to Nominate a unit as PZ. After you do so the unit cannot take options. This is no way shape or form places a restriction on when you nominate, and you will notice that none of the anti's have actually managed a rules based argument against it - just some poor attempts at disparaging my motives behind the argument.
Emp. wrote: The best thing to do is talk to your local TO, grab their advice/decision and run with that until a firm FAQ from Games Workshop is released.
This is the only sane rational thing I've read in this thread so far. I'm sure if I come back after five more pages of nonsense it will still be the only rational thing said. This thread should be locked.
there is merit in determining what the rules actually say, as opposed to what people want them to say. I TO occasionally so i use this forum as a good exercise in determining what hte rules actually say, so when i have players asking for a ruling I can state the RAW and also, if needs be, produce a FAQ beforehand where I think RAQ falls short - usually by giving an unresolvable situation.
"ask your TO" and "wait for a FAQ" are good general advice, but useless when discussing actual rules - as useless as referring to TMIR
I get that there's merit in discussing rules, even when they're not too ambiguous, as it gives you more ammunition at the gaming table if someone is trying to get away with something. But this thread is ten pages (thus far) of:
Yes it is!!
No it isn't!!
Yes it is!!
No it isn't!!
Yes it is!!
No it isn't!!
Yes it is!!
No it isn't!!
Yes it is!!
No it isn't!!
Yes it is!!
No it isn't!!
Yes it is!!
No it isn't!!
