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 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Exactly!

At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!

And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.

I find it hilarious that you are saying that RAW order of operations is an attempt at a smoke screen which has no argument, yet your entire argument is based on an order of operations from your interpretation. So which is it? You keep saying that Plague Zombies can't purchase options, but somehow they can take options. Plague Zombies are Cultists who cannot purchase options and have a CCW. If they can't purchase the upgrade then how can they take the upgrade?

I don't see how they didn't pay for it before they were nominated. So let's follow your order of operations. I pay for the Chaos Cultists with Options then nominate them as Zombies, which by RAW cannot purchase options, but they just did purchase options. It makes no sense, because I cannot pump points into a unit that's a Zombie. That's what RAW says. It doesn't say your order of operations which makes no sense.

When do Chaos Cultist become Chaos Cultists with specific USR's and not able to PURCHASE options?

When they are nominated as Plague Zombies.

So when are Chaos Cultist no longer able to PURCHASE the option to increase the unit size?

After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies.

The rule gives you no restriction on purchasing the option to increase unit size as a Chaos Cultist. Only after you have been nominated does the restriction kick in and the rule doesn't apply retroactively. The rule is specific in that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. It isn't that they cannot have options, just that after being nominated as Plague Zombies they can no longer purchase options.

so you are arguing that there is an order of operations?

I don't see how the zombies didn't pay for the options when it's still the same unit. That unit is still purchasing the options no matter how it boils down.

 Red Comet wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Exactly!

At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!

And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.

I find it hilarious that you are saying that RAW order of operations is an attempt at a smoke screen which has no argument, yet your entire argument is based on an order of operations from your interpretation. So which is it? You keep saying that Plague Zombies can't purchase options, but somehow they can take options. Plague Zombies are Cultists who cannot purchase options and have a CCW. If they can't purchase the upgrade then how can they take the upgrade?

I don't see how they didn't pay for it before they were nominated. So let's follow your order of operations. I pay for the Chaos Cultists with Options then nominate them as Zombies, which by RAW cannot purchase options, but they just did purchase options. It makes no sense, because I cannot pump points into a unit that's a Zombie. That's what RAW says. It doesn't say your order of operations which makes no sense.

When do Chaos Cultist become Chaos Cultists with specific USR's and not able to PURCHASE options?

When they are nominated as Plague Zombies.

So when are Chaos Cultist no longer able to PURCHASE the option to increase the unit size?

After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies.

The rule gives you no restriction on purchasing the option to increase unit size as a Chaos Cultist. Only after you have been nominated does the restriction kick in and the rule doesn't apply retroactively. The rule is specific in that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. It isn't that they cannot have options, just that after being nominated as Plague Zombies they can no longer purchase options.

so you are arguing that there is an order of operations?

I don't see how the zombies didn't pay for the options when it's still the same unit. That unit is still purchasing the options no matter how it boils down.

You can't nominate a Chaos Cultist unit to be Plague Zombies if you don't have a Chaos Cultist to nominate in the first place. So call it what you will, but that is the basic mechanic of the rule.

How is it possibly the same unit? Once nominated they are not longer Chaos Cultists, but Chaos Cultists with specific USR's, cannot purchase options, and are called Plague Zombies. Please justify how they are the same unit.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

When do Chaos Cultist become Chaos Cultists with specific USR's and not able to PURCHASE options?

When they are nominated as Plague Zombies.

So when are Chaos Cultist no longer able to PURCHASE the option to increase the unit size?

After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies.

The rule gives you no restriction on purchasing the option to increase unit size as a Chaos Cultist. Only after you have been nominated does the restriction kick in and the rule doesn't apply retroactively. The rule is specific in that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. It isn't that they cannot have options, just that after being nominated as Plague Zombies they can no longer purchase options.

If purchasing options is the issue when does nomination happen? If it is in the writing of the list like it clearly implies then all of this is moot. It is not that they can no longer purchase options it is that they cannot purchase options, these are two very different things. You have added in a word to satisfy your interpretation of the rules.

Cannot purchase options refers to list creation and includes all options, can no longer purchase options refers in your mind to whatever is dealt with when it says zombies have a single ccw.
In either case they have to happen during list creation, so typhus' rule is not retroactive it happens during the period you spend working out what you can fit into your list. Otherwise it would not say cannot purchase options it wouls say "are only armed with..." and leave it at that.
Why is it that in your mind certain options are more valid than others?

It's obvious there is an order of operations. Thus so there is no problem fielding 35 zombies.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's obvious there is an order of operations. Thus so there is no problem fielding 35 zombies.

Citation please? I don't see it so please point it out with some quotes.

The rules for it just tell you to nominate; there is no restriction on when you nominate, so you are perfectly free to nominate after upgrading.

Again, if you disagree please give an actual rule to counter it.

Yes there is no point were you have to nominate them, as it stands you could nominate them during a game it seems.

Yet, zombies cannot purchase options. Just like a character that changes into a spawn or a demon prince, they have restrictions on what gear and rules they have when they change from cultist to zombie, and restrictions on being able to purchase options. Seeing that buying more guys is under something specifically called "options"...

Yeah... So to pro-35'ers are saying I should care that they nominated their cultists to be zombies the day the codex was released, the day before a tournament, or after they have purchased options?

As an opponent, I care not. If I look at an army list that has 35 zombies in 1 unit, I'm seeing an illegal unit. I don't care about a time stamp as to when the nomination happened or order of operations. It's a zombie unit that ended up with options which is against RAW IMO.

Zombies cannot purchase options, which is fine - they didnt

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Yeah... So to pro-35'ers are saying I should care that they nominated their cultists to be zombies the day the codex was released, the day before a tournament, or after they have purchased options?

As an opponent, I care not. If I look at an army list that has 35 zombies in 1 unit, I'm seeing an illegal unit. I don't care about a time stamp as to when the nomination happened or order of operations. It's a zombie unit that ended up with options which is against RAW IMO.

And you would wrong because that is not what the rule says.

The rule does not say Plague Zombies cannot have options. The rule says that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. At no time did a 35 strong unit of Plague Zombies purchase the option to increase the unit size to 35.

Happyjew wrote:
Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

Precedent set that order of operations does not matter.

A nob may have these upgrades. A painboy may not. You may not upgrade a nob with these items then "nominate" them and pay the points to make it a painboy with illegal options.

Using the "order of operations" loophole for zombies is the same. You're trying to end up with a unit that has options when the rules tell you this unit cannot have options.

But there is no rule telling you that zombies cannot have options. It's a different situation to the nob faq.

Look, this is going to be FAQ'd for allowing full 35 man units of zombies. Phil Kelly was even talking about full squads of zombies to people at gamesday. I think its best that each gaming group make their own rules for now and wait for the FAQ.

By that logic I guess you can prebuy a Mark of Khorne too. Pity they couldnt prebuy power swords too.... If we are avoiding the rules, may as well go all the way.

The rule states that "can be nominated" it does not say when to nominate, after deployment, before deployment?

More importantly

This is actually huge! The rule says that Plague Zombies are "Any Chaos Cultists unit" and there is no army list addition to them so:

So as the rule states (or does not state) you can:

-Buy as many cultists as you want
-But all upgrades on them
-Field them as Cultists
-Nominate them to Zombies when ever you want! This just changes their special rules to Fearless, FnP and SaP, and are all equiped with 1x CCW. (and in case they have special weps or bolt pistol, etc lose it or them)

So what you do is you buy 35 pack of cultists, keep them as cultists until you actually need the FnP and fearless

Because there is no clear statement on order of actions this is just as legal or illegal as fielding just 10 zombies

Addition to this there is a way more funny stuff going on on CSM codex, for example Plague marine Champion cannot exchance his plague knife to melee weapon because it is not CCW, Noise Marine Champion cannot even get CCW,..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Yeah... So to pro-35'ers are saying I should care that they nominated their cultists to be zombies the day the codex was released, the day before a tournament, or after they have purchased options?

As an opponent, I care not. If I look at an army list that has 35 zombies in 1 unit, I'm seeing an illegal unit. I don't care about a time stamp as to when the nomination happened or order of operations. It's a zombie unit that ended up with options which is against RAW IMO.

To your comment, there is no actual "spreadsheet" or unit info for Plague Zombies in the CSM codex, meaning that you have to buy Chaos Cultists, not Plague Zombies, and then after the purchase nominate them as Plague Zombies which gives them their special rules and equips them with just 1x CCW, no matter what they would otherwise have...

evilfish wrote:
Addition to this there is a way more funny stuff going on on CSM codex, for example Plague marine Champion cannot exchange his plague knife to melee weapon because it is not CCW, Noise Marine Champion cannot even get CCW,..

Plague knife is a Melee weapon and thus a CCW. Read the BRB page 50 under "Melee Type"

As for the Champion thing, I find this line of reasoning absurd. NOT saying, you Evilfish are absurd, or that it is even your line of reasoning. Just that to claim a Noise Champion is not a Marine is absurd.

The unit as a whole fall under the Unit Heading " Noise Marines" Just the box under neath has two profiles: one for Noise Marines and the other for Noise Champion doesn't make the Noise Champion, no longer a Marine.

40k-noob wrote:
[

Plague knife is a Melee weapon and thus a CCW. Read the BRB page 50 under "Melee Type"

As for the Champion thing, I find this line of reasoning absurd. NOT saying, you Evilfish are absurd, or that it is even your line of reasoning. Just that to claim a Noise Champion is not a Marine is absurd.

The unit as a whole fall under the Unit Heading " Noise Marines" Just the box under neath has two profiles: one for Noise Marines and the other for Noise Champion doesn't make the Noise Champion, no longer a Marine.

I totally agree with you but if we follow peoples way of thinking:

"Any Noise Marine" = Noise Marine
Noise Marine =/= Noise Champion (because they have different profiles)

This means that if the Noise Champion could take CCW, the rule should be written as "Any Noise Marine and Noise Champion" or "Any of Noise Marines"

lets just hope for quick FAQ...

So was them writing "cannot purchase options" just a mistake and a waste of ink?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's obvious there is an order of operations. Thus so there is no problem fielding 35 zombies.

Citation please? I don't see it so please point it out with some quotes.

Please... Some things are so simple. For example no one has to read instructions to learn how to read.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's obvious there is an order of operations. Thus so there is no problem fielding 35 zombies.

Citation please? I don't see it so please point it out with some quotes.

Please... Some things are so simple. For example no one has to read instructions to learn how to read.

So your order of operations is only there when you read it into the rules? I love these emperors new clothes clauses.

 airmang wrote:
So was them writing "cannot purchase options" just a mistake and a waste of ink?

No, that was a deliberate choice. Another choice would have been "cannot have any options" or "any basic cultist unit without any options can be nominated as plague zombies".

I have to say that after following this thread since the beginning, that I am leaning towards the 10 man size limit.
Here is my reasoning:
I believe the context of the rule gives weight to the limit because they intentionally pointed you to the Army List page (95) where you can clearly see that adding more Cultists is listed under the "Options" section.
They wanted you to go the page and look at the "Cultist" unit and see what are the "options" and that you can't have any if you want them to be Plague Zombies.

No Rules quotes or other examples to point at, I am just saying that taken in its context, I believe RAI was that it should only a unit of 10.

I don't know who thinks ten weak zombies with a FNP of 5+ is an objective holder even in cover they last one round of shooting and die when they get charged by anything! I mean even ripperswarms can hold longer vs blast weapons I see alot of people bitching cuz they play small expensize shooting forces and the idea of cleaning a table of mobs of anything seems daunting...but thats the point Typhus is a jerk and he wants to tarpit you till you get tired of rolling dice and eventually swear your soul to nurgle and it doesnt say when I nominate the units to Zombies so If i want I can just say"....uhm nvm now they are all zombies" just before the game starts when I see someone dropping that oh so clever three landraider army. btw in any zombie movie you ever watched ..ever..did they wander around in packs of ten and victoriously wade through small arms fire to grab pizza boxes for their dark god?

lol! I got it, write down Typhus last ...


As of right now it appears there is nothing wrong with taking 35 dudes and going Cool zombies. Again there are no rules saying I cannot, as there is no time for when they must be nominated.

Attomsk wrote:
Look, this is going to be FAQ'd for allowing full 35 man units of zombies. Phil Kelly was even talking about full squads of zombies to people at gamesday. I think its best that each gaming group make their own rules for now and wait for the FAQ.

I know what little weight this will have in YMDC, but I can toss another Phil Kelly anecdote on to the heap... The organizers of Feast of Blades apparently contacted Kelly to ask this exact question. He replied that Zombies can max out like any other Cultist unit. So yes: some guy on the Internet is telling you that he heard from a friend who heard from a TO at FoB that Phil Kelly says its OK. You can take that to the bank.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
lol! I got it, write down Typhus last ...


As of right now it appears there is nothing wrong with taking 35 dudes and going Cool zombies. Again there are no rules saying I cannot, as there is no time for when they must be nominated.

So I can keep them as 35 cultists and GTG behind an ADL for 2+ cover, then nominate them to become FnP fearless zombies once the enemy gets into assault range?

you cant go to ground if youre fearless

I´d be fine with the 35-man strong zombie unit - when have you ever seen a zombie movie where they roamed about in groups of 10 rather than the unyielding mob of undead? What self-respecting Zombie apocalypse would be limited to 10 guys...

Let them come, my scatter lasers are ready.

Iranna.

 Ravenous D wrote:
you cant go to ground if youre fearless

He would go to ground before they become fearless. And then turn them into zombies. Clearly you didn't catch the sarcasm in his post as you *cannot* do this. He's literally making fun of you people and you don't even realize it.

Until this gets FAQ'd you *cannot* have plague zombie units above 10. It is clear and simple "No options" = Absolutely no options. Is adding models to the squad under options? You do the math.

Seriously half of you need to think about what you're saying. "Use common sense" etc. etc. How about use common sense and see that you can't take options and yet you're trying to take options.

Emp. wrote:


He would go to ground before they become fearless. And then turn them into zombies. Clearly you didn't catch the sarcasm in his post as you *cannot* do this. He's literally making fun of you people and you don't even realize it.

Perhaps it is you who did not catch Ravenous D being facetious and it is you who does not realise that it is in fact HE who is making fun of you...

Just as planned...

Iranna.