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 liturgies of blood wrote:
Actually looking over the rules, I think though this is more inferred than explicit, that since the cultists cannot purchase options when zombified that it must be done during the list building. Otherwise the "cannot purchase options" has no meaning, the nomination of a unit at the start of a game excludes the ability to take options. The only time a unit takes options is while writing the list, ergo the nomination of zombies or not happens then.

Perhaps the nomination is meant to happen at any time, during list building and afterwards, and the restriction just limits the upgrades during that first time period.

So Minx do you mean that you can either only nominate a 10 man squad to be zombies during building or nominate any squad up to a 35 mans squad later on?

I still think it's possible to upgrade a cultist unit any way you want and then nominate them as plague zombies. That way they lose the additional weapons and special rules, gain the zombie rules and keep their upgraded number.

I should have clarified

the restriction just limits the upgrades during that first time period.

to limits the upgrades for zombies during ...

Problem with that stance is that the unit still has purchased options. In my mind it doesn't gel with the rules.

Options should read "weapons options" as its mentioned in the same breathe as them not having guns.

I love reading the delusional reasons people put for why they can break the rules with their new bandwagon book.

It doesn't matter, 10 cultists with MON and aren't fearless are far better at holding objectives than 10 zombies, simply by the reason that the cultists are higher toughness and can go to ground.

Go ahead and buy your 35 man zombie unit, I don't care, but when the FAQ tells you that you can't do it, don't come crying to the forums.

 juraigamer wrote:
I love reading the delusional reasons people put for why they can break the rules with their new bandwagon book.

It doesn't matter, 10 cultists with MON and aren't fearless are far better at holding objectives than 10 zombies, simply by the reason that the cultists are higher toughness and can go to ground.

Go ahead and buy your 35 man zombie unit, I don't care, but when the FAQ tells you that you can't do it, don't come crying to the forums.

Were I agree the rules by RAW say you can only have 10 zombies the FAQ isn't going tell you you can only have 10 as one of the GW guys army's from some play testing picks has squads of 15 in size if not larger. So long term they will be able to up squad size with a F&Q but for sure as RAW sits they cant.

I would guide the conversation to the word "may" in Typhus' entry. Wouldn't this mean that you could elect not to nominate a cultist unit?

And why is everyone getting so worked up over this issue? Can't wait for the FAQ?

I don't understand why people come up with these ideas of "pre list building phase, etc" when none of these things exist as per the rules. The only thing that exists is your army list at the beginning of the game. That is the only distinction the game makes. There is no list building phase, and there are not phases within that. The rules in the BRB only guide us when we already have a completed list that we can play with. Any arguments saying that there are other phases is going on a tangent that truly has no substance.

I'm not getting worked up, but I'm really hoping to be able to make a horror army. 2-3 zombie hordes slowly advancing up the field, flanked by hideous spawns rushing down the sides, followed by humanity's finest, corrupted beyond reason, allied daemons appearing out of thin air in the midst of the enemy, and finally the Herald himself, Typhus appearing with a bang with his Gravemaker terminator bodyguards to deliver the final blow with the sweep of his scythe.

Heck, if zombies aren't Faqed, I'll probably run them in ten man groups, and taking advantage of the second FoC at 2k. Heck, 2x35, or 7x10 doesn't matter too much...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Problem with that stance is that the unit still has purchased options. In my mind it doesn't gel with the rules.

You have a serious disconnect between which unit purchased what.

What were Plague Zombies before they were nominated to become Plague Zombies? Chaos Cultists.

Do Chaos Cultists have the valid and legal option to increase their unit size to 35? Yes.

So please explain how you believe that Plague Zombies are purchasing the option to increase their unit size to 35. Please explain how the Plague Zombies are purchasing anything when they do not even have any options listed much less a unit entry.

Actually just tell me how an option purchased for a Chaos Cultist unit is an option purchased for a Plague Zombies unit.

The entry is clearly talking about individual zombies when it talks about purchasing options. Take a look:

"Plague zombies are are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel no Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options. They are armed with a single close combat weapon...

Notice the use of THEY referring to "Plague Zombies" in the previous sentence. If "plague zombies" meant the squad, then the second sentence says the whole squad has one single close combat weapon. Obviously, it means each are armed with a single close combat weapon, which therefore means the previous sentence was saying that individual zombies can not purchase options.

Q.E.D

For the love of Nurgle!

Plague Zombies CANNOT PURCHASE OPTIONS

Cultists purchase the Options, then get nominated.

Therefore, Zombies did NOT purchase any options.

Purchasing something that later cannot be purchased does not make it illegal, as long as you purchases it before it was made illegal to purchase. No where does it say that it is illegal to have PREVIOUSLY purchased options...

Either case, in a fun game, why the hell not allow it. In a tournament you have no say.

As far as phases during list building, I don't know who is saying that there are but you would have to in fact has a unit of cultists before nominating them meaning there is an order of operations.

Exactly!

At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!

And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.

Nos pointed it out first, nomination of a Chaos Cultist unit to become Plague Zombies is given no specific timeline, however we must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists. That prerequisate trumps all. However the actual mechanic of nomination could be when army lists are exchanged or even before deployment.

For example, when does Deathleaper do his little Out to Get Me leadership drop thingy? Or how about Dante's cripple effect on an opposing IC? The two that really pop into my head are Wolf Priests declaring what is their preferred enemy or who will be Ulrik the Slayer's pupil.

So until a FAQ is issued, the real conflict is not 35 man Plague Zombie units, but when do you nominate Chaos Cultist units to be Plague Zombies. As it stands a Typhus player can nominate how many of his Chaos Cultist units will be Plague Zombies depending on mission and/or opponent and then deploy as such.

jegsar wrote:
For the love of Nurgle!

Plague Zombies CANNOT PURCHASE OPTIONS

Cultists purchase the Options, then get nominated.

Therefore, Zombies did NOT purchase any options.

Purchasing something that later cannot be purchased does not make it illegal, as long as you purchases it before it was made illegal to purchase. No where does it say that it is illegal to have PREVIOUSLY purchased options...

Either case, in a fun game, why the hell not allow it. In a tournament you have no say.

As far as phases during list building, I don't know who is saying that there are but you would have to in fact has a unit of cultists before nominating them meaning there is an order of operations.

Painboyz cannot purchase certain Nob Wargear.
Nob purchases the Wargear and then gets upgraded to a Painboy.
Therefore, the Painboy did not purchase the Wargear.

Exact same situation, which GW said "they cannot have the items, deal with it" (OK they didn't say that exactly but...). I've already stated that i'd allow it because heck, I tend to run a Scatter Laser heavy army (I generally play aganst Horde armies), however, I also said that as it is currently written, no more than 10 Zombies.

just my 2 cents on this, i have NEVER seen or head of adding more models to a unit as "purchase options". that seems to refere to any weapons they might have/get because of the whole "any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death!" so i would infer that its talking about no auto guns/stubbers or the like.

Happyjew wrote:

jegsar wrote:
For the love of Nurgle!

Plague Zombies CANNOT PURCHASE OPTIONS

Cultists purchase the Options, then get nominated.

Therefore, Zombies did NOT purchase any options.

Purchasing something that later cannot be purchased does not make it illegal, as long as you purchases it before it was made illegal to purchase. No where does it say that it is illegal to have PREVIOUSLY purchased options...

Either case, in a fun game, why the hell not allow it. In a tournament you have no say.

As far as phases during list building, I don't know who is saying that there are but you would have to in fact has a unit of cultists before nominating them meaning there is an order of operations.

Painboyz cannot purchase certain Nob Wargear.
Nob purchases the Wargear and then gets upgraded to a Painboy.
Therefore, the Painboy did not purchase the Wargear.

Exact same situation, which GW said "they cannot have the items, deal with it" (OK they didn't say that exactly but...). I've already stated that i'd allow it because heck, I tend to run a Scatter Laser heavy army (I generally play aganst Horde armies), however, I also said that as it is currently written, no more than 10 Zombies.

Instead of just parapharasing the Nob/Painboy rule, how about actually posting it up. People keep saying it is the same rationale and circumstances, yet it isn't.

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

Ok now you are posting up a FAQ that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Post up the rules for Nob/Painboy and we can see how GW ruled it for a Nob/Paninboy via their FAQ.

Then we can completely disregard it as Chaos Cultist/Plague Zombies are not Nobs/Painboys.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Ok now you are posting up a FAQ that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Post up the rules for Nob/Painboy and we can see how GW ruled it for a Nob/Paninboy via their FAQ.

Then we can completely disregard it as Chaos Cultist/Plague Zombies are not Nobs/Painboys.

I'm confused with what you are asking for. The part in the Ork code where it says "One Nob may be a Painboy............+XX points"? If that is not what you want you need to clarify.

Attomsk wrote:
The entry is clearly talking about individual zombies when it talks about purchasing options. Take a look:

"Plague zombies are are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel no Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options. They are armed with a single close combat weapon...

Notice the use of THEY referring to "Plague Zombies" in the previous sentence. If "plague zombies" meant the squad, then the second sentence says the whole squad has one single close combat weapon. Obviously, it means each are armed with a single close combat weapon, which therefore means the previous sentence was saying that individual zombies can not purchase options.

Q.E.D

Line 2 is about what the unit is and what rules it has. It deals with the unit not the individual models. Since the cannot purchase options is in that line your argument doesn't scan with the RAW.

Line 3 what the individual models are armed with. So even though the basic cultist due to line 2 could still have an autogun or whatever, this line clears up their armaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

You have a serious disconnect between which unit purchased what.

What were Plague Zombies before they were nominated to become Plague Zombies? Chaos Cultists.

Do Chaos Cultists have the valid and legal option to increase their unit size to 35? Yes.

So please explain how you believe that Plague Zombies are purchasing the option to increase their unit size to 35. Please explain how the Plague Zombies are purchasing anything when they do not even have any options listed much less a unit entry.

Actually just tell me how an option purchased for a Chaos Cultist unit is an option purchased for a Plague Zombies unit.

You have a serious disconnect between what the rules say and what you say but I keep a civil tongue in my arguments. Plague Zombies are cultists, the rules tell us this. The cultists entry has listed under options adding men. This means that adding men is purchasing an option. To have a unit of cultists not purchase options you cannot have more men.

Please explain where that logical train breaks down.
The answer to your question is that you are purchasing options for zombies when you try to nominate a unit with more than 10 cultists to be zombies.

The logical train breaks down where you think they are the same and that when the Chaos Cultist purchases the perfectly legal option to increase their unit size it somehow brands them with a scarlet "P" that carries over to when they are nominated to become Plague Zombies.

All Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with FnP/SnP/Fearless/option restrictions. Not all Chaos Cultists are Plague Zombies.

Read the above a few hundred times so it will sink in so you will understand that the Chaos Cultists that ARE Plague Zombies are not the same Chaos Cultists that you purchased the option to increase the unit size to 35.

Listen you can jump up and down and cry all you like but when you augment the cultists with the zombie rules you have to look at what the zombie rules say. If the unit you nominate to be plague zombies is not the same unit that paid the points to have 35 men in, what cultist squad did you nominate to be a zombie squad in your army?

Never have I said that all cultists are zombies, what I have said is that NO 35 man cultist squad is eligible to be zombies.

So you agree that zombies cannot have options and the units that typhus' rule nominates to be zombies cannot have options. You just don't agree that zomies are chaos cultists at all in any way anymore when it comes to an argument.

I hate to bring facts to a debate cos it's like bringing a gun to a knife fight but here is the rule in full.

Any Chaos Cultist units (see the army list, pg 95) in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies.

Look at page 95, now back to me, now back to typus, now me. The units are nominated not changed to or anything else. Since the line refers to army it can be assumed that this is not an option to take at the start of a game like putting additional units into reserves or the like and would have some impact on the writing of the list.

Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options.

The unit is still a cultist unit, it has the usr's. The cannot purchase options part is refering to the unit, this denies any aspect of it being individual model upgrades. Since a during the writing of a list is the only time you purchase upgrades and the rule does not say discards all weapons upgrades or discard all options unit is assumed to never been allowed to take them.
Happy has pointed out how Nobs work with a painboss, you should look at that instead of disregarding it offhand.

They are armed with a single close combat weapon -any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing meir victims to death!

Why is it that you allow a unit of 35 to take options, so heavy stubbers etc before nominating them to be zombies taking away all their options but not the extra men?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I doubt that, 6th ed has tried to remove tarpits as much as it could. I assume zombies are easy to wound tough to wipe off the table stuff rather than cultists that are comparably easy to deal with. If so why would 6th ed's 1st codex piss on the work that they did with the rulebook.

By removing fearless wounds from the game, I'd say that there's at least one fact against your argument about removing tarpit units. That being said, I think it was intentional that zombies are limited to 10 per unit. RAW is 10, and I can't see the major tournaments overturning RAW in this case.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Listen you can jump up and down and cry all you like but when you augment the cultists with the zombie rules you have to look at what the zombie rules say. If the unit you nominate to be plague zombies is not the same unit that paid the points to have 35 men in, what cultist squad did you nominate to be a zombie squad in your army?

Never have I said that all cultists are zombies, what I have said is that NO 35 man cultist squad is eligible to be zombies.

So you agree that zombies cannot have options and the units that typhus' rule nominates to be zombies cannot have options. You just don't agree that zomies are chaos cultists at all in any way anymore when it comes to an argument.

I hate to bring facts to a debate cos it's like bringing a gun to a knife fight but here is the rule in full.

Any Chaos Cultist units (see the army list, pg 95) in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies.

Look at page 95, now back to me, now back to typus, now me. The units are nominated not changed to or anything else. Since the line refers to army it can be assumed that this is not an option to take at the start of a game like putting additional units into reserves or the like and would have some impact on the writing of the list.

Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options.

The unit is still a cultist unit, it has the usr's. The cannot purchase options part is refering to the unit, this denies any aspect of it being individual model upgrades. Since a during the writing of a list is the only time you purchase upgrades and the rule does not say discards all weapons upgrades or discard all options unit is assumed to never been allowed to take them.
Happy has pointed out how Nobs work with a painboss, you should look at that instead of disregarding it offhand.

They are armed with a single close combat weapon -any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing meir victims to death!

Why is it that you allow a unit of 35 to take options, so heavy stubbers etc before nominating them to be zombies taking away all their options but not the extra men?

When you nominate a unit of Chaos Cultists to become Plague Zombies, they become Plague Zombies which are Chaos Cultists with a specific set of USR's that cannot purchase options. They are not the same Chaos Cultists because NOW they are Plague Zombies that are Chaos Cultists with a specific set of USR's and they cannot purchase options.

Did the Chaos Cultist unit prior to being nominated have that specific set of USR's? No. Was the Chaos Cultist unit prohibited from purchasing options? No. Do they even have the same unit name? No. They are not the same!

And no I do not agree that Plague Zombies cannot have options. Plague Zombies CANNOT PURCHASE OPTIONS. That is my point; at no time did the unit of Plague Zombies unit purchase the option to increase the Chaos Cultist unit size to 35 nor at no time did the Plague Zombie unit purchase the option to increase the Plague Zombie unit to 35. The only unit that purchased the option to increase the unit size was the Chaos Cultist unit, which was a valid and legal option for them before being nominated.

I have disregarded Happy's point because it is irrelevant. A Painboy is not dependent on a HQ special rule. A painboy is an upgrade to a mob of Nobs, he is not nominated and he actually has a point cost associated with him. Last but not least, he is an Ork with Ork rules and an Ork FAQ, not a Chaos Cultist or a Plague Zombie.

Ranged and melee weapons are specifically addressed by the rule. They go out of their way to address what happens to such items like a heavy stubber and as I pointed out they prevent the Plague Zombies from repurchasing them again. Do they specifically address unit size? Do they specifically address Cultist champions? No once again for both of them.

Your attempts at making the rules assocaiated with Chaos Cultists that are Plague Zombies and Chaos Cultists has been trounced. At no time can you show that the Plague Zombies chose or purchased the Chaos Cultist option of increasing the unit size to 35. I even used your own point of "Cultists Plus" to shut down your argument. Please try something new.

liturgies - civil tongue, when you are talking about people jumping up and down and crying? No.

Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists WITH .....

They are not Chaos Cultists solo.

If I upgrade to 35, THEN nominate, the plague zombies have NOT bought anything.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Exactly!

At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!

And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.

I find it hilarious that you are saying that RAW order of operations is an attempt at a smoke screen which has no argument, yet your entire argument is based on an order of operations from your interpretation. So which is it? You keep saying that Plague Zombies can't purchase options, but somehow they can take options. Plague Zombies are Cultists who cannot purchase options and have a CCW. If they can't purchase the upgrade then how can they take the upgrade?

I don't see how they didn't pay for it before they were nominated. So let's follow your order of operations. I pay for the Chaos Cultists with Options then nominate them as Zombies, which by RAW cannot purchase options, but they just did purchase options. It makes no sense, because I cannot pump points into a unit that's a Zombie. That's what RAW says. It doesn't say your order of operations which makes no sense.

The way I see it is, that yes you can buy options for your cultists. Which is fine. However as soon as you have nominated them they have become Zombies, so any options they have purchased become null and void. Meaning they are reduced down to 10 man size.

RAW only works well in ambiguous situations. This is an example of RAW gone bad. If you are 24/7 RAW than you have the balls to tell your opponent his Wraithsword does nothing for it has no rules. Only wraithblades have rules. Be a good person. Don't be a dbag.

 Red Comet wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Exactly!

At no time did the unit of Plague Zombies choose and pay for the option to increase the unit size to 35 models. AT NO TIME!

And it is 100% obvious that in order to have a unit of Plague Zombies, you must first have a unit of Chaos Cultists to nominate. This rubbish about a RAW order of operations is just an attempted smoke screen to distract you from the fact that they have no argument.

I find it hilarious that you are saying that RAW order of operations is an attempt at a smoke screen which has no argument, yet your entire argument is based on an order of operations from your interpretation. So which is it? You keep saying that Plague Zombies can't purchase options, but somehow they can take options. Plague Zombies are Cultists who cannot purchase options and have a CCW. If they can't purchase the upgrade then how can they take the upgrade?

I don't see how they didn't pay for it before they were nominated. So let's follow your order of operations. I pay for the Chaos Cultists with Options then nominate them as Zombies, which by RAW cannot purchase options, but they just did purchase options. It makes no sense, because I cannot pump points into a unit that's a Zombie. That's what RAW says. It doesn't say your order of operations which makes no sense.

When do Chaos Cultist become Chaos Cultists with specific USR's and not able to PURCHASE options?

When they are nominated as Plague Zombies.

So when are Chaos Cultist no longer able to PURCHASE the option to increase the unit size?

After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies.

The rule gives you no restriction on purchasing the option to increase unit size as a Chaos Cultist. Only after you have been nominated does the restriction kick in and the rule doesn't apply retroactively. The rule is specific in that Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. It isn't that they cannot have options, just that after being nominated as Plague Zombies they can no longer purchase options.