So i was playing a game the other day and the guy i was playing against was using space marines. Of course there is no problem there however i was a little confused and didnt exactly think it was fair the way he used his drop pods.

I was playing chaos and using a defiler, and he dropped his drop pod right in front of it, once again not against the rules, no problem, the issue i had is that he didnt open the doors on the drop pod, saying that with the true line of sight rules my defiler couldnt see most of his units due to the drop pod being literally right in his way and having all the doors shut, but he could still shoot with the drop pod to my units. My argument was that if the doors are closed on the drop pod and my defiler cant see to shoot his units because the doors are closed, his drop pod cant see to shoot my units for the same reason being that the weapon is suspended INSIDE the drop pod. I let it go and finished the game barely losing (he took the objective inside a rhino and drove off with it, my 1000 sons where too slow to catch it and ahriman didnt bust the rhino on the last turn... literally lost by one die roll but oh well the rhino and 2 SM's where all he had left) But it still bothers me, in my opinion if i cant see you because of closed doors you cant see me either. it wouldn't have even been that big a deal to me, but he had 6 drop pods with all there doors closed and still shooting at me. I didnt feel like making a fuss so i just let it go but im just interested to see your thoughts on this and how you would have had it play out.

If he wanted to rule Line of sight blocked from doors then that should apply all the way around Him and you. On a rhino, another transport, you draw line of sight and measure from the guns same applies to a drop pod.

wizardofgore wrote:
If he wanted to rule Line of sight blocked from doors then that should apply all the way around Him and you. On a rhino, another transport, you draw line of sight and measure from the guns same applies to a drop pod.

so i was correct? with the door shut and the weapon being inside the drop pod he cant see to shoot me either right?

Can you draw los from the gun to the target? The rules are clear that the hull of a vehicle can block the los of a weapon so if the doors are shut no way it can shoot.

There are a few earlier posts on similar questions that might help

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/359938.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/415561.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318120.page

I didn't notice anything in the SM faq, but there might be something in the INAT

Its been widely covered in older posts. The doors are always considered to be open and you can draw line of sight through a drop pod. It does however, provide cover. The doors are always assumed to be open.

gannam wrote:
Its been widely covered in older posts. The doors are always considered to be open and you can draw line of sight through a drop pod. It does however, provide cover. The doors are always assumed to be open.

This is not true. nowhere in the rules does anything like this appear.

The rules use TLOS. If you can draw LoS you can shoot it. if you can not then you can not shoot it. it is that simple.

P.S. no changing the drop pod doors configuration midgame to suit your needs.

I'm going to piggyback on your post here, is there any rule somewhere that says you're required to open the doors on the drop pod when it comes down? Is it always assumed to be open? Can you leave them closed to block LOS to things?

Had this situation come up just a few hours ago, I dropped in a drop pod but the door couldn't open without cracking them down on top of models, so we just agreed to assume that they were open and anything could shoot through them if they wanted.

I always assumed that the doors opened, as they're used to drop units onto the field... How can the units inside, or the weapon inside, shoot (or the units leave) if the doors didnt go down?

Then again, idk if space marines can get plain drop pods that dont carry anything..

Well, the "fluff" states that the doors are blasted open and you have to disembark. It fails to mention if the doors can re-close after you've done so though.

Many tournament FAQs rule that doors should always be treated as open though.

 Locclo wrote:
I'm going to piggyback on your post here, is there any rule somewhere that says you're required to open the doors on the drop pod when it comes down? Is it always assumed to be open? Can you leave them closed to block LOS to things?

Had this situation come up just a few hours ago, I dropped in a drop pod but the door couldn't open without cracking them down on top of models, so we just agreed to assume that they were open and anything could shoot through them if they wanted.

There is no requirement to open the doors to disembark the models transported within.

This is the same as every other vehicle.

For some reason its been removed from the new FAQ's, but it was in the old ones. I will try and see if I can find a copy of the old FAQ



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

gannam wrote:
Its been widely covered in older posts. The doors are always considered to be open and you can draw line of sight through a drop pod. It does however, provide cover. The doors are always assumed to be open.

This is not true. nowhere in the rules does anything like this appear.

The rules use TLOS. If you can draw LoS you can shoot it. if you can not then you can not shoot it. it is that simple.

P.S. no changing the drop pod doors configuration midgame to suit your needs.

I found the old fith edition FAQ on this that answered the question

Q: When I deploy from a Drop Pod, do I measure the disembarkation area from the openable door-flaps or from the hull of the Drop Pod?

A: From the Hull of the Drop Pod itself. The opening doors are a cool model feature and don't impact on game play.

"The opening doors are a cool model feature and don't impact on game play."

Which is the same as every other vehicle...

So since the vehcile is open topped, and the doors don't affect game play ie "line of sight" then you target a vehicle through a drop pod but it would give cover, which is what people have been telling him all along.

That is correct I dont even put the interior into my pods. It makes no difference to the game. If he is really pulling the door shut game then some one in aurthority at your club needs to tell him no or just to get lost. Its pretty bad sportsmanship and rule bending to the extreme

Per the Codex,

"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and
all passengers must immediately disembark, as normal"

note the word MUST. There is no gray area in this. Once the drop pod lands, the doors open and you must disembark. You cannot keep the doors closed.

Also,

"Once deployed the Drop Pod is no longer a sealed environment and is therefore counted as being open-topped." if that helps any on LoS?

Rorschach9 wrote:
Per the Codex,

"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and
all passengers must immediately disembark, as normal"

note the word MUST. There is no gray area in this. Once the drop pod lands, the doors open and you must disembark. You cannot keep the doors closed.

Also,

"Once deployed the Drop Pod is no longer a sealed environment and is therefore counted as being open-topped." if that helps any on LoS?

Please explain how the hatches are "blown open" in the real world (not the game world). Also what happens if the doors are glued shut? Do I have to smash my DP to pieces to get the doors opened?

The rules never say that the doors must be opened, however, certain tournaments may rule that they either open or are treated as opened. If they are not opened, then they block LOS as normal whihc can hinder the weapon inside, and can allow units to claim cover. It is not legal to allow your army to draw LOS through it, but not mine.

"Hatches are blown" is fluff. We know that because drop pod models do not come with explosives.
The must is attached to disembark, not the doors. There is no rule requiring the doors to open.

Ad open topped has nothing to do with tracing LoS through a model.

So explain to me how the unit deploys through closed doors? the rules say the unit must deploy so the doors MUST open

 bcaman wrote:
So explain to me how the unit deploys through closed doors? the rules say the unit must deploy so the doors MUST open

Same way a unit disembarks any vehicle. By placing the models so they are fully within 6" of an access point.

 bcaman wrote:
So explain to me how the unit deploys through closed doors? the rules say the unit must deploy so the doors MUST open

My Landraider doors are glued shut. Am I disallowed from disembarking from a Landraider?

 bcaman wrote:
So explain to me how the unit deploys through closed doors? the rules say the unit must deploy so the doors MUST open

The doors don't open on my chimera. No idea how they get out.
Physically opening the doors isn't necessary. It's only fluff that says the doors actually open.
I admit I'm disappointed that the doors on the model don't 'blow open', would make the models more interesting.

I always play as if you can't draw LoS though the hull the DP. Sure if the doors are open, you can see though it and you want to take the shot, I'd ask to rock a 4+ (5+ at worse) for it. But I'd never shoot though one myself.

 Guilldog wrote:
So i was playing a game the other day and the guy i was playing against was using space marines. Of course there is no problem there however i was a little confused and didnt exactly think it was fair the way he used his drop pods.

I was playing chaos and using a defiler, and he dropped his drop pod right in front of it, once again not against the rules, no problem, the issue i had is that he didnt open the doors on the drop pod, saying that with the true line of sight rules my defiler couldnt see most of his units due to the drop pod being literally right in his way and having all the doors shut, but he could still shoot with the drop pod to my units. My argument was that if the doors are closed on the drop pod and my defiler cant see to shoot his units because the doors are closed, his drop pod cant see to shoot my units for the same reason being that the weapon is suspended INSIDE the drop pod. I let it go and finished the game barely losing (he took the objective inside a rhino and drove off with it, my 1000 sons where too slow to catch it and ahriman didnt bust the rhino on the last turn... literally lost by one die roll but oh well the rhino and 2 SM's where all he had left) But it still bothers me, in my opinion if i cant see you because of closed doors you cant see me either. it wouldn't have even been that big a deal to me, but he had 6 drop pods with all there doors closed and still shooting at me. I didnt feel like making a fuss so i just let it go but im just interested to see your thoughts on this and how you would have had it play out.

As far as I’m concerned. The doors open automatically when the pod lands. I haven’t read anyone else’s posts (because I’m lazy) However, if your opponent disagrees, either:
Pack up your stuff & leave, or:
beat him senseless with your model case & claim a victory on them grounds.... Your playing Chaos after all!

 grendel083 wrote:

 bcaman wrote:
So explain to me how the unit deploys through closed doors? the rules say the unit must deploy so the doors MUST open

The doors don't open on my chimera. No idea how they get out.
Physically opening the doors isn't necessary. It's only fluff that says the doors actually open.
I admit I'm disappointed that the doors on the model don't 'blow open', would make the models more interesting.

I am so tempted to make a spring loaded drop pod. Button on the base, it triggers, pop, down come the doors.

Happyjew wrote:
Please explain how the hatches are "blown open" in the real world (not the game world). Also what happens if the doors are glued shut? Do I have to smash my DP to pieces to get the doors opened?

The rules never say that the doors must be opened, however, certain tournaments may rule that they either open or are treated as opened. If they are not opened, then they block LOS as normal whihc can hinder the weapon inside, and can allow units to claim cover. It is not legal to allow your army to draw LOS through it, but not mine.

Who cares about the real world? This is a game. If the doors are glued shut (as are mine), you treat them as opened. You don't HAVE to have them opened on the model to treat them as opened unless you're completely anal and have zero imagination.

Besides, a drop pod also says it carries 12 models. You can't fit 12 models inside it. Again, it's a game.

When the drop pod hits, the doors are opened and units must disembark.

rigeld2 wrote:"Hatches are blown" is fluff. We know that because drop pod models do not come with explosives.
The must is attached to disembark, not the doors. There is no rule requiring the doors to open.
.

Happyjew wrote:

 bcaman wrote:
So explain to me how the unit deploys through closed doors? the rules say the unit must deploy so the doors MUST open

Same way a unit disembarks any vehicle. By placing the models so they are fully within 6" of an access point.

But they must disembark through access points. In this case, the doors of the drop pod. Therefore the doors must open. Unless somehow your marines can go through closed doors somehow?

Drop pods provide cover, but they do not block LOS. The doors are always open (if your model doesn't open, as mine don't, they are considered open anyway).

PS : "Hatches are blown" is a fancy way of saying "Hatches are opened". It does not mean they are "blown off" or "exploded" or anything like that.

Happyjew has the rules correct. It's true LOS, and if the doors are glued shut, it blocks LOS, to its own gun as well as everyone else. Most transport models have doors and hatches which are usually glued shut as well.

That being said, whether the doors have to open or should be treated as open when it's down is something a TO or FAQ may address, so it's worth checking into if you're going to attend a competitive event.

Well then I guess anyone with drop pods who's doors are glued shut can NEVER disembark as you cannot move through a solid object.

Rorschach9 wrote:
Well then I guess anyone with drop pods who's doors are glued shut can NEVER disembark as you cannot move through a solid object.

Just like rhinos and razorbacks.

I think not lettting someone shoot the storm bolter or deathwind launcher is punishment enough for gluing the doors shut. They cannot draw los through the pod too so it's all the same really.

Rorschach9 wrote:
Well then I guess anyone with drop pods who's doors are glued shut can NEVER disembark as you cannot move through a solid object.

And Land Raiders.
And Rhinos.
And Razorbacks.
And Chimeras.
And Vendettas.
And Valkyries.
And Storm Ravens.

Need I go on?

Rorschach9 wrote:
Well then I guess anyone with drop pods who's doors are glued shut can NEVER disembark as you cannot move through a solid object.

Except that the rules only require the models to disembark within 6 inches of an access point. The doors being closed make no difference.

If they did then you could not disembark from most vehicles, as they usually do not have doors that are able to open/are glued shut.

I love how people are so okay with Land Raider doors being glued shut... but Drop pod doors *must* be open or it isn't realistic....

Rorschach9 wrote:
Well then I guess anyone with drop pods who's doors are glued shut can NEVER disembark as you cannot move through a solid object.

And you can't get out of your rhinos, razorbacks, or land raiders if you glued those doors shut.

And Wave Serpents
And Falcons
And I can't even find where the models disembark on a Mycetic Spore...

Happyjew wrote:
...And I can't even find where the models disembark on a Mycetic Spore...

is that is because there is no model for the Spore?

coredump wrote:
I love how people are so okay with Land Raider doors being glued shut... but Drop pod doors *must* be open or it isn't realistic....

That's because Land Raiders can't deepstrike in front of enemy models for the express purpose of disrupting their LOS.

And this thread, and problems like this, are exactly why I avoid mixing WAAC competition into my 40k. I would call poor sportsmanship so fast...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
...And I can't even find where the models disembark on a Mycetic Spore...

is that is because there is no model for the Spore?

Yep. Even most of the scratch-built models don't have somewhere the models would "disembark" from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Boneblade wrote:

coredump wrote:
I love how people are so okay with Land Raider doors being glued shut... but Drop pod doors *must* be open or it isn't realistic....

That's because Land Raiders can't deepstrike in front of enemy models for the express purpose of disrupting their LOS.

And this thread, and problems like this, are exactly why I avoid mixing WAAC competition into my 40k. I would call poor sportsmanship so fast...

BA Land Raiders can DS.

That's nice. Doesn't change the fact that it is an annoying tactic, and even if held legitimate under current FAQs, should not belong even in competitive gameplay. To me it falls under the same lines as modeling for advantage. A Land Raider has 4 solid sides and even if you open the ramp there is no seeing through the other side.

A Drop Pod, in normal gameplay, is going to have the doors open. That's *WHY* it has the Open Topped rule. Choosing not to do this simply because there is no explicit rule compelling you to do so affords you a Deepstriking terrain piece you can use to block LOS.

Tell me how it is different from modelling my Heldrake's Baleflamer on its ass so that I can shoot at things behind the model after it Vector Strikes. There is no implicit rule compelling me to assemble the model a certain way - and as per the BRB, I determine LoS from the weapon's barrel.

MFA.

Expensive way to frequently commit suicide, though. I've never seen it done.

Although come to think if it, it could be hilarious to do this combined with Scout Bikers using a Locator Beacon.

How many people actually have their DP doors glued shut, though?

Mine open and I always open mine.

 kronk wrote:
How many people actually have their DP doors glued shut, though?

Mine open and I always open mine.

You'd be surprised how many.

Mine are and I always make sure they count as open when on the table.

I'm so glad I don't play with people who can' t interpret rules and feel the model is more accurate/takes precedence over the rules themselves.

 Boneblade wrote:
That's *WHY* it has the Open Topped rule.

So I can see through Raiders and other Open-Topped vehicles as well?

Basilisks?

edit:
Also - I don't know why it needs to be said, but it obviously does...

There's no reason to assume that the people citing RAW to allow a DP to leave its doors closed and use TLoS to be Deep Strikable terrain do actually play that way. I'd wager many of them don't use Pods on a regular basis.

Arguing RAW for a rule does not mean you play that way.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Boneblade wrote:
That's *WHY* it has the Open Topped rule.

So I can see through Raiders and other Open-Topped vehicles as well?

Basilisks?

edit:
Also - I don't know why it needs to be said, but it obviously does...

There's no reason to assume that the people citing RAW to allow a DP to leave its doors closed and use TLoS to be Deep Strikable terrain do actually play that way. I'd wager many of them don't use Pods on a regular basis.

Arguing RAW for a rule does not mean you play that way.

I'm not accusing people in this thread of being That Guy. What I'm saying is that if someone tried to pull this on me I would call him on it (MFA). The rules can be the rules can be the rules but there are plenty of ways to interpret them that puts you in a weaker position as far as enjoying the hobby, good sportsmanship, etc.

And for the record..

If you had a Dark Eldar Raider and someone decided to painstakingly fill in every gap present in the silhouette of the model in order to claim it blocks TLOS to units beyond it; I'd call MFA. If I can see between the sail and a gun turret to a vehicle or unit behind the raider, you are damn right I can shoot at the model on the other side. "Being kind of in the way" but characteristically having sometimes large gaps = line of sight can pass through said model. Of course granting cover. Same reason I can shoot beneath an Eldar Waveserpent at the Dire Avengers behind it, even if I only see their legs.

So how does the weapon inside said glued DP fire? I was under the impression that an open-topped vehicle allows weapons to be fired from the inside out, hence why all open-topped vehicles either don't have an upper hull to block this kind of firing, or are like the DP and when it lands the sides open to make it open-topped and allow the weapon inside to fire. If you glue your model shut then i'd call modeling for advantage and ask you to remove the model from the table, since you have changed how a model looks to suit your own needs. If you look at the drop pods building instructions it shows it with the sides down as intended. Now for firing through it i'd agree that you would get a cover save for intervening model but a DP does not block line of sight unless one of the fins is actually blocking.

Either you treat the model if the doors were open, in which case models can draw LOS through it (including the weapon) or the weapon inside cannot draw LOS and thus cannot fire.

Then i would say your models can't get out either, on a regular vehicle the doors can be glued shut because RAI is that they can open and close at the operators judgement. On a DP the doors are explosively opened which means there is no closing it up afterward, the guys don't hop out and then spend a turn lifting the doors back into place. Plus i once again point back to the DP instruction manual for building, it shows the DP as it is meant to be fielded, doors down and open.

Doors aren't supposed to be on the drop pod after it lands, the model may have the ability to set down the doors (because it's only a model) fluff wise the doors explode off and shouldn't be treated as there.

Example if you have an opponent with an opened drop pod, doors down, try and say "No you can't come within 1" of an any model" trying to claim that the doors are part of the vehicles hull. Doesn't work.

Rythem wrote:
Then i would say your models can't get out either, on a regular vehicle the doors can be glued shut because RAI is that they can open and close at the operators judgement.

This is not supported by the rules at all.

Rythem wrote:
On a DP the doors are explosively opened which means there is no closing it up afterward,

This is fluff and not rules.

Rythem wrote:
Plus i once again point back to the DP instruction manual for building, it shows the DP as it is meant to be fielded, doors down and open.

Except the the actual rules do not say if the doors have to be open or closed on open topped models.

If we must go by the boxes all marine armies have to be Ultramarines...

Bottom line is that if the Doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal, as the rules for disembarking say to measure from the access point, and not 'Measure from the open access door'.

Rythem wrote:
Plus i once again point back to the DP instruction manual for building, it shows the DP as it is meant to be fielded, doors down and open.

Except the the actual rules do not say if the doors have to be open or closed on open topped models.

If we must go by the boxes all marine armies have to be Ultramarines...

Bottom line is that if the Doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal, as the rules for disembarking say to measure from the access point, and not 'Measure from the open access door'.

Having the doors closed on a Drop pod is "build[ing] the model the way the designers/builders of the game intended them to be built." as the doors can be in either position when the model is built as per the instructions.

Bottom line is that if the doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Having the doors closed on a Drop pod is "build[ing] the model the way the designers/builders of the game intended them to be built." as the doors can be in either position when the model is built as per the instructions.

Bottom line is that if the doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal.

Actually no, I have the instructions right infront of me, and nowhere in the 3 pages does it ever show the model with doors up. What it does show on the first page for completed model is the DP with doors down and open. So bottom line once again I call modeling for advantage.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Having the doors closed on a Drop pod is "build[ing] the model the way the designers/builders of the game intended them to be built." as the doors can be in either position when the model is built as per the instructions.

Bottom line is that if the doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal.

I would play them as down either way personally, but Reaper has solid solution to the issue. If opponent wants to play doors block LOS then they block LOS for everybody including the weapon in the DP.

The doors can move when put together correctly.

The BRB does not specify open or closed, so however you model it is how it interacts with TLoS.

Call MFA all you like, but it is not likely to fly with many people if the doors are glued shut.

barnowl wrote:
I would play them as down either way personally, but Reaper has solid solution to the issue. If opponent wants to play doors block LOS then they block LOS for everybody including the weapon in the DP.

As the rules dictate, always use TLoS, so if the doors are are up nothing, including the gun inside, can see through the pod.

Rythem wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Having the doors closed on a Drop pod is "build[ing] the model the way the designers/builders of the game intended them to be built." as the doors can be in either position when the model is built as per the instructions.

Bottom line is that if the doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal.

Actually no, I have the instructions right infront of me, and nowhere in the 3 pages does it ever show the model with doors up. What it does show on the first page for completed model is the DP with doors down and open. So bottom line once again I call modeling for advantage.

So you are going to hammer every drop pod your opponent has since they were glued in? Or even better, if they were paper crafted?

The argument is not about drop pod door instructions for building them. It is about what is to be done with said drop pod which the doors can't / won't be opened.

My opinion is go for TLOS, if the doors are close no one can see through them. Obviously the weapon inside can't fire and even more obviously the marines can disembark since this part has nothing to do with doors.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The doors can move when put together correctly.

The BRB does not specify open or closed, so however you model it is how it interacts with TLoS.

Call MFA all you like, but it is not likely to fly with many people if the doors are glued shut.

barnowl wrote:
I would play them as down either way personally, but Reaper has solid solution to the issue. If opponent wants to play doors block LOS then they block LOS for everybody including the weapon in the DP.

As the rules dictate, always use TLoS, so if ythey are up nothing, including the gun inside, can see through the pod.

So we don't have to build our models following the directions anymore? That is really good to hear because I have many ideas for the way my models should look to give me all kinds of advantages.

Barnowl: the only problem with that solution is that if i glue the doors up i lose a 3 point storm bolter that i can't fire, but now block all line of sight to my 125 point dreadnought that just came out of it. In no way is that a fair trade, the fair way to play it is as intended, the doors open but you gain a cover save on the model that comes out for firing through an intervening model.

Rythem wrote:
So we don't have to build our models following the directions anymore? That is really good to hear because I have many ideas for the way my models should look to give me all kinds of advantages.

Well technically we are not allowed to assemble, or paint our models as the rules do not say we can.

The rules assume you are using citadel models that are put together, but they do not actually require it...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rythem wrote:
So we don't have to build our models following the directions anymore? That is really good to hear because I have many ideas for the way my models should look to give me all kinds of advantages.

Well technically we are not allowed to assemble, or paint our models as the rules do not say we can.

The rules assume you are using citadel models that are put together, but they do not actually require it...

True, but then again the rules don't say i can't use a cinder block as my spore pod, if we really want to start arguing that way.

all in all i agree with reaper,
that is what i told my opponent is that if i cant see to shoot him his DP's couldnt see to shoot me either,
and the models would still disembark because i mean who opens up the doors on a landraider or rhino?
but your models can still get out right,
my only prob was he was shooting me with the DP's and saying i couldnt shoot through them,
but its be clarified and we agreed our last game didnt count.

Actually " the rules don't say i can't" does not work in a permissive ruleset.

I said "the rules do not say we can." we need to be allowed to do something or we can not do it.

I got a similar problem with my friends when using drop pod, but this was on the 5th edition so im on the guess here, but i can tell you a couple of things, because the fight with my friends was that all doors must always be open, but then again in the FAQ was stated that this wasn't necessary.

1) NOT ALL DOORS MUST BE OPEN, but as i understand the drop pod is a vehicle that you must disembark once he enters the game, so by this standards you should at least open a door so you troops can disembark as is the purpose of this particular vehicle (then again this was in 5th edition), getting cowardly in fear in your drop pod doesn't seem like a courageous choice or a smart one.

2) THE DROP POD DO NOT POSSES ANY FIRE POINT and you can also check this out if you look at the mini, son if for some reason you dont want to disembark your troops im pretty sure you can't shoot from inside a closed sealed capsule IS JUST COMMON SENSE,

so there you go i think using the rules for something that is obviously not possible is just disloyal competition, so if he wants to keep his troops on the drop pod fine, but im sure he can't shoot at you, he can always block you LoS bye keepign a few doors closed, but must always disembark his troops in order to do that but then again he wouldn't also be able to shoot at you because at the same time he is also blocking his LoS

jakingo wrote:
1) NOT ALL DOORS MUST BE OPEN, but as i understand the drop pod is a vehicle that you must disembark once he enters the game, so by this standards you should at least open a door so you troops can disembark as is the purpose of this particular vehicle (then again this was in 5th edition), getting cowardly in fear in your drop pod doesn't seem like a courageous choice or a smart one.

You don't have to open a door to disembark. Or do you require literally every transport in the game to also have an openable door?

2) THE DROP POD DO NOT POSSES ANY FIRE POINT and you can also check this out if you look at the mini, son if for some reason you dont want to disembark your troops im pretty sure you can't shoot from inside a closed sealed capsule IS JUST COMMON SENSE,

By definition an open-topped vehicle is a non-specific firing point.

 Klueless wrote:

 Guilldog wrote:
So i was playing a game the other day and the guy i was playing against was using space marines. Of course there is no problem there however i was a little confused and didnt exactly think it was fair the way he used his drop pods.

I was playing chaos and using a defiler, and he dropped his drop pod right in front of it, once again not against the rules, no problem, the issue i had is that he didnt open the doors on the drop pod, saying that with the true line of sight rules my defiler couldnt see most of his units due to the drop pod being literally right in his way and having all the doors shut, but he could still shoot with the drop pod to my units. My argument was that if the doors are closed on the drop pod and my defiler cant see to shoot his units because the doors are closed, his drop pod cant see to shoot my units for the same reason being that the weapon is suspended INSIDE the drop pod. I let it go and finished the game barely losing (he took the objective inside a rhino and drove off with it, my 1000 sons where too slow to catch it and ahriman didnt bust the rhino on the last turn... literally lost by one die roll but oh well the rhino and 2 SM's where all he had left) But it still bothers me, in my opinion if i cant see you because of closed doors you cant see me either. it wouldn't have even been that big a deal to me, but he had 6 drop pods with all there doors closed and still shooting at me. I didnt feel like making a fuss so i just let it go but im just interested to see your thoughts on this and how you would have had it play out.

As far as I’m concerned. The doors open automatically when the pod lands. I haven’t read anyone else’s posts (because I’m lazy) However, if your opponent disagrees, either:
Pack up your stuff & leave, or:
beat him senseless with your model case & claim a victory on them grounds.... Your playing Chaos after all!

I like your style lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

jakingo wrote:
1) NOT ALL DOORS MUST BE OPEN, but as i understand the drop pod is a vehicle that you must disembark once he enters the game, so by this standards you should at least open a door so you troops can disembark as is the purpose of this particular vehicle (then again this was in 5th edition), getting cowardly in fear in your drop pod doesn't seem like a courageous choice or a smart one.

You don't have to open a door to disembark. Or do you require literally every transport in the game to also have an openable door?

2) THE DROP POD DO NOT POSSES ANY FIRE POINT and you can also check this out if you look at the mini, son if for some reason you dont want to disembark your troops im pretty sure you can't shoot from inside a closed sealed capsule IS JUST COMMON SENSE,

By definition an open-topped vehicle is a non-specific firing point.

Thats was the other players arguement, was that it has no specific firing point so it could shoot with the doors closed
i said if the doors are closed its not opened topped,
he said rules say doors dont have to be open for it to shoot
i said just cause you can see the bolter doesnt mean its out side the deathwind is inside so i assume the bolter is too
then he said nope doesnt say so in the rules....

got tired of arguing and just continued to play.

we pretty much went over the same stuff you guys are talking about here, and we talked about it after the fact and agreed that when the DP drops
the doors are blow, SM's flood out and you can see through them and they provide a 5+ cover save.

It's simple. The doors block line of sight so you can't shoot through it or out of it, but the guys inside must disembark, the doors don't physically have to open, but the models must disembark.

If your doors are glued shut, either accept that you can't shoot and it blocks all line of sight, or say that it give a 4+ cover save, DONE.

I know others have said this, but no one seems to be getting it!

^ this ....

 LazzurusMan wrote:
It's simple. The doors block line of sight so you can't shoot through it or out of it, but the guys inside must disembark, the doors don't physically have to open, but the models must disembark.

If your doors are glued shut, either accept that you can't shoot and it blocks all line of sight, or say that it give a 4+ cover save, DONE.

I know others have said this, but no one seems to be getting it!

pretty much the idea bro

Why are people talking about fire points? There is nobody onboard and you use the normal rules for vehicle weapons which is to draw los to the target.

Why has this gone on for so long the rules clearly say, when the drop pod deepstrikes the drop pod doors hatches explode off. There is no, ' oh i didn't open them ' or whatever. Its a simple rule, read your dam codex you cheating ultramarines douche!

 Frecklesonfire wrote:
Why has this gone on for so long the rules clearly say, when the drop pod deepstrikes the drop pod doors hatches explode off. There is no, ' oh i didn't open them ' or whatever. Its a simple rule, read your dam codex you cheating ultramarines douche!

1) Please do not break forum rules.

2) "the drop pod doors hatches explode off." is fluff and not actual rules.

Provide some actual rules if you think otherwise please.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:
Why has this gone on for so long the rules clearly say, when the drop pod deepstrikes the drop pod doors hatches explode off. There is no, ' oh i didn't open them ' or whatever. Its a simple rule, read your dam codex you cheating ultramarines douche!

There are a few mistakes here. One is getting rude, which is a violation of the rules you agreed to abide by in return for being permitted to post.
Two is assuming that everyone plays it the same way you do, when a lot of folks (for aesthetics, for convenience not having to deal with the doors flopping all over the place, or just laziness to not have to paint the interior) do glue the doors up for one reason or another.
The third is assuming that folks argue a point here because that's the way they play in real life, and they're arguing for personal advantage.

Remember this forum is here to help us understand the rules, and folks will often discuss the strict RAW of how they understand the rule to work, even if they'd be more flexible and open to "what feels right" at the table with a live opponent. Most people aren't douches or trying to cheat. Mostly they're reasonable people who like discussing the rules and are perfectly nice in reality, even if they happen to disagree with you.

 Guilldog wrote:
Thats was the other players arguement, was that it has no specific firing point so it could shoot with the doors closed

Fire Points aren't used for the vehicle firing its own weapons. If it can't draw LOS from the weapon, it can't shoot.

i said if the doors are closed its not opened topped,

There are no rules to support this, though. The vehicle is open-topped because the rules say it is open topped. Nothing says the doors have to physically be open for this rule to apply.

he said rules say doors dont have to be open for it to shoot

The rules say no such thing. The doors dont have to be open, but the weapon needs LOS to shoot.

Treat drop pod doors as you do daemon prince wings etc. For game mechanic purposes, ignore them. When a drop pod lands, it's doors are blown open. Only due to a malfunction would a drop pod's doors not open. It's automatic when it lands. It's like in melee, you can't choose that one model doesn't hit, just so you won't get stuck in the open on your opponent's turn. You have to hit with all the models. You can't choose to have some of the drop pod doors not open, just so you can deny LOS to the disembarking models from behind.

Claiming otherwise is twisting game rules to give you an advantage, and makes you look like TFG.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Treat drop pod doors as you do daemon prince wings etc. For game mechanic purposes, ignore them. When a drop pod lands, it's doors are blown open. Only due to a malfunction would a drop pod's doors not open. It's automatic when it lands. It's like in melee, you can't choose that one model doesn't hit, just so you won't get stuck in the open on your opponent's turn. You have to hit with all the models. You can't choose to have some of the drop pod doors not open, just so you can deny LOS to the disembarking models from behind.

Claiming otherwise is twisting game rules to give you an advantage, and makes you look like TFG.

Again, cite actual rules please. What people keep quoting is a fluff statement.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Treat drop pod doors as you do daemon prince wings etc. For game mechanic purposes, ignore them.

Unless I missed something, DP Wings still block LOS. THey re only ignored for drawing LOS to the DP.

Happyjew wrote:

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Treat drop pod doors as you do daemon prince wings etc. For game mechanic purposes, ignore them.

Unless I missed something, DP Wings still block LOS. THey re only ignored for drawing LOS to the DP.

you are correct Happyjew.

The DP wings block Line of Sight to models behind the DP, but they are ignored for drawing Line of Sight to the DP.

I glue my Drop Pods shut, because the doors can be a pain in the ass at best and damage models at worst.

We play it as has been stated above, as being considered open and being able to draw LOS through and providing cover, and it has never been a problem. This is just something that should be covered by a TO or a house rule.

 Mannahnin wrote:
...a lot of folks (for aesthetics, for convenience not having to deal with the doors flopping all over the place, or just laziness to not have to paint the interior) do glue the doors up for one reason or another.

Or in my case, all three!

rigeld2 wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:
Well then I guess anyone with drop pods who's doors are glued shut can NEVER disembark as you cannot move through a solid object.

And Land Raiders.
And Rhinos.
And Razorbacks.
And Chimeras.
And Vendettas.
And Valkyries.
And Storm Ravens.

Need I go on?

Actually the vendetta can be made to have all of its hatches open if fact the way the kit has you build it does just that so the door guns can be seen. But back to the original question the guy was being a jerk. It is one thing to try the cheese of saying the door close again which they should not. It is another to claim he still gets to shoot when he cannot see with the gun because of his earlier cheese. Either way he was still a jerk.

Rythem wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The doors can move when put together correctly.

The BRB does not specify open or closed, so however you model it is how it interacts with TLoS.

Call MFA all you like, but it is not likely to fly with many people if the doors are glued shut.

barnowl wrote:
I would play them as down either way personally, but Reaper has solid solution to the issue. If opponent wants to play doors block LOS then they block LOS for everybody including the weapon in the DP.

As the rules dictate, always use TLoS, so if ythey are up nothing, including the gun inside, can see through the pod.

So we don't have to build our models following the directions anymore? That is really good to hear because I have many ideas for the way my models should look to give me all kinds of advantages.

Barnowl: the only problem with that solution is that if i glue the doors up i lose a 3 point storm bolter that i can't fire, but now block all line of sight to my 125 point dreadnought that just came out of it. In no way is that a fair trade, the fair way to play it is as intended, the doors open but you gain a cover save on the model that comes out for firing through an intervening model.

It is also blocking all LOS from that Dreadnaught to anything on my side of it, so end of the day, I come off the hair better. Also if you drop it in front of my lines, I get free LOS blocking cover to protect me from the rest of your army. Behind my line, not really a big deal, a sI just have to move to fire at you if you did not move for debark for a fire lane on me, giving me first shot at you.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that the rules only require the models to disembark within 6 inches of an access point.

You keep repeating this, but it is blatantly wrong.

Reread the rule please, and stop telling people the 5th edition rule for disembark.

pg 79 BYB:
"When a unit disembarks, place the models one at a time, using the following method: place the first model in base contact with one of the vehicles Access Points. If the model cannot be placed in base contact with the Access Point due to the vehicle's flying base, place it so its body is in contact with the Access Point. In either case, a disembarking model's base cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy model or within impassable terrain. The model can then make a noamrl move - Difficult and Dangerous Terrain tests should be taken as normal, but it must end it's move wholly within 6" of the Access Point it disembarked from (we assume that any distance that is lost because of this has been used getting out of the Transport). Repeat this process for each model in the unit. At the end of the unit's move, all models must be in unit coherency."

TLDR:
You must disembark within 1" of the access point, and can then move out to a max of 6" away, you cannot simply place 6" away. There is a very big difference in game play between the two. You method, it is very hard to stop people disembarking. Actual game method, it is fairly simple to stop someone disembarking.

It is the same thing, as long as there are no enemy models close by.

P.S. Disembarking within 6 inches of an access point was not how it worked in 5th...

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is the same thing, as long as there are no enemy models close by.

So, what you are saying is, that it is not, in fact, the same thing?

 DeathReaper wrote:
P.S. Disembarking within 6 inches of an access point was not how it worked in 5th...

You are right, it was not 6", it was 2". You could only move after disembark if the vehicle did not move.

2 things: you mentioned the guy took off with the objective in his rhino? If you we're playing relic I hope he did not move more than 6 inches.

2nd if he wants to glue his doors shut that's fine and dandy, but it will not count as blocking my line of sight in my game. I would give him a 5+. If he demanded that I can't shoot through it I would tell him that's ridiculous because the model is designed to open and is being used in an unfair manner. If he continued his argument I'd call a judge. If it was a friendly games I'd prob just tell him I'm not going to play by that rule because I disagree.

So if I have a flying vehicle and I mount it to the big SM statue I would get to block LoS? I don't think so since you can't bring cover with you, but I have heard of people trying that one as well...kinda the same thing...using models in an unintended and malicious way to gain an advantage over your opponent.

Sorry guys that think it should block LoS. I just don't agree it should.

There's a rule against bringing cover with you.
There's a rule about not being able to see through models you can't actually see through.

 nolzur wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is the same thing, as long as there are no enemy models close by.

So, what you are saying is, that it is not, in fact, the same thing?

Let me clarify:
Not if there are enemies close by, but otherwise it is the same thing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 nolzur wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is the same thing, as long as there are no enemy models close by.

So, what you are saying is, that it is not, in fact, the same thing?

Let me clarify:
Not if there are enemies close by, but otherwise it is the same thing.

I will add that it probably does not matter in the case of a Drop Pod. Sure, it's entirely possible to surround a Rhino and stop the models inside from getting out, but that's because you can do that during your movement phase and then break it open in the Shooting/Assault phases. Against an enemy drop pod, if you want to stop a unit from disembarking, your opponent essentially has to deep strike it directly into a circle of units, or miraculously scatter into one.

If I recall correctly some time ago there was either a fac or something that said that models could see "through" the drop pod. Back when the SM codex 5th edition released. Seriously though glueing the doors shut so people cant shoot is just wrong IMO.

 Bausk wrote:
I always play as if you can't draw LoS though the hull the DP. Sure if the doors are open, you can see though it and you want to take the shot, I'd ask to rock a 4+ (5+ at worse) for it. But I'd never shoot though one myself.

At BEST, it is worth 5+ cover save, I argue that the top is 6+, and the bottom half (with the harnesses/weapons) is 5+.

FenixZero wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
I always play as if you can't draw LoS though the hull the DP. Sure if the doors are open, you can see though it and you want to take the shot, I'd ask to rock a 4+ (5+ at worse) for it. But I'd never shoot though one myself.

At BEST, it is worth 5+ cover save, I argue that the top is 6+, and the bottom half (with the harnesses/weapons) is 5+.

My counter claim is we are essentially shooting through the hull of an armour 12 vehicle. Any other example has us firing over, around or under the hull, not though it. As I said I'd typically play it as if the hull was as solid as any other vehicle and shoot around it even if my opponent does not. And would ask, not expect or demand, a 4+ for it. Quite happy to play it as 5+ but I still won't shoot though a drop pod.

6+ really? everything, even squishy grot flesh grants a 5+ and you are somehow possessed with the idea that the top of an AV12 vehicle is somehow less dense? Yeah no, I'd never let anyone take a unit cover save at less than 5+, especially if its from shooting through the hull section of a AV12 vehicle.

It would be considered as firing through an enemy model and thus give the intedned target a 4+ cover, just as if you were trying to fire at an enemy unit behind another enemy unit.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
It would be considered as firing through an enemy model and thus give the intedned target a 4+ cover, just as if you were trying to fire at an enemy unit behind another enemy unit.

5+ in 6th edition.

Kal-El wrote:
If I recall correctly some time ago there was either a fac or something that said that models could see "through" the drop pod. Back when the SM codex 5th edition released.

There has never been any such rule.

You have LOS if you have LOS. There is no rule requiring the doors to be open, just as there is no rule requiring a rhino's doors to be open.

^ Truth.

Just accept is as the nature of GW. You really think they haven't though of this "problem"?

Hint: They don't give a feth.

Neither should you.

Discuss with opponent.

For the record, if someone wants to keep their pod doors up then by golly I let them. Maybe it will backfire on them and I can save an Aspiring Sorcerer by hiding behind it or something.

If someone wants to keep pod doors up I'm okay with it, however I will expect every pod they ever use to have those doors up.

Same goes for doors down, every pod will always have doors down unless they physically can't fit.

The way I'd interpret this is as follows:

Once a drop pod lands a unit must disembark, however not everyone keeps their drop pod doors with the ability to open, some glue them shut for physical transport of models etc, but once it lands I would treat it as if any unit can draw line of sight through it as the doors would technically have to 'blow open' to let guys out.

Open or shut you can draw LoS through it from both his side and yours as they are always regarded as open, but you will both recieve cover saves etc.

You cannot change if they are open or shut at any point.

To me it sounds like this guy was out of order or just didn't really know the rules, but if it was me I would have let you shoot through no problem as this is pretty common sense I think.

Personally I'd go with true line of sight for a closed drop pod. I might call the other guy a bit of an ass if it looks like he did it to game himself some cover to prevent LOS but it is too hard to work out true LOS when you have a model blocking it.
The other thing is that with all the crap in the middle of a drop pod it is hard to draw los a lot of the time even with the doors open.

didnt think this topic would get this far. Just wanted a simple answer lol

this is ymdc, there is no simple answer

 pizzaguardian wrote:
this is ymdc, there is no simple answer

Except when there is.

This maybe adding fuel to the fire or foreshadowing of things to come, but the Drop Pod Assault rule changed in the Horus Heresy book I for the Marine Legion list. Without a long verbatum quote the changes are as follows (p208):

Units who purchased Drop Pods as transports must always be depolyed in them.

As soon as a Drop Pod is deployed its doors are automatically opened to their full extent.


This is not a clear answer to normal 6th Ed, but maybe a view in to intent and the future codex.

Horus Heresy is a Warhammer 40k variant that while it uses many of the same rules also makes changes. As it is there is no actual rule (barring Tourney rules) in standard 40K that says a Drop Pods doors must open.

I completely agree. I'm just pointing out the change. And the Hersey book uses all the same rules with very little modifacations. One could easily play a Legion list against codex lists and just not use the few modifacations.

But this also seems like a silly thing to change that doesn't really make sense (no comments on GW making sense). The rule changes in the Heresy book is done to bring the list in line with fluff of the Legions. Neither of these changes seem to do that.

All said I wouldn't be surprised if the next C:SM has these changes also.

I'd be surprised if they forced marines to deploy in the pods. That'd be a pretty big change.

It's how they started out...

 insaniak wrote:
It's how they started out...

You and your truthiness!! :-)

Why would you be suprised? The only reason it can be done now is that there is no requirement for the buying unit to be deployed in in a D. Transport.

The change would make more sense, fluffwise.

And if they did it with the new rules it really wouldnt be that bad, there is a lot less chance of your units dying in a deepstrike mishap now than in 5th ed.