I would die fighting. I would rather be dragged down by the howling masses of cackling fanatics or be skinned alive by tenacious drooling hordes of xenos than join one or the other. As a Space Marine..... only in death does duty end.
Personally, death would be nice. The Hives burning, the sky black with starships and hulks, corpses of Guardsmen and Astartes lie in heaps on the ground, wave after wave of daemons and Chaos-touched Eldar and other Xenos charge, Power Armor integrity failing, down to the last ammo reserves...IT WILL BE GLORIOUS!
Personally, death would be nice. The Hives burning, the sky black with starships and hulks, corpses of Guardsmen and Astartes lie in heaps on the ground, wave after wave of daemons and Chaos-touched Eldar and other Xenos charge, Power Armor integrity failing, down to the last ammo reserves...IT WILL BE GLORIOUS!
Since my brain is intact and i have no fascist tendencies, i join the Tau Empire and help to salvage whatever is left of the galaxy and the human species after 10000 years of madness.
KingDeath wrote: Since my brain is intact and i have no fascist tendencies, i join the Tau Empire and help to salvage whatever is left of the galaxy and the human species after 10000 years of madness.
SEDITION!
Better to die with honor and glory worthy of our noble forbears.
KingDeath wrote: Since my brain is intact and i have no fascist tendencies, i join the Tau Empire and help to salvage whatever is left of the galaxy and the human species after 10000 years of madness.
Agreed.
Dying is kind of out of the question, especially since the afterlife sucks.
Joining Chaos is like playing Russian Roulette, except there are six bullets in your revolver.
The Eldar will not accept a human.
That leaves the Tau, who will provide me with a decent enough standard of living and the possibility of reconstruction.
Just imagine: Hotel Six from Halo: Reach, but having a bolter and PA. My last stand will be over 9000 times more epic. Thats the way i want to go out: an amazing last stand.
Dying is kind of out of the question, especially since the afterlife sucks.
Only if you're a psyker...normal Human souls 'dissolve' quickly, so even without the Emperor's protection, there's a good chance Daemons won't get your soul.
Joining Chaos is like playing Russian Roulette, except there are six bullets in your revolver.
Not if you're useful...or ambitious.
That leaves the Tau, who will provide me with a decent enough standard of living and the possibility of reconstruction.
Subject/client race of xenos? No thanks.
ace101 wrote: Just imagine: Hotel Six from Halo: Reach, but having a bolter and PA. My last stand will be over 9000 times more epic. Thats the way i want to go out: an amazing last stand.
Personally i picture my self leading a charge of guardsmen. Out of ammo charging tackling chaos space marines ripping off their helmets and stabbing them in the eye we break through the CSM lines sweaty and bloodied we didnt take many casualties for guardsmen standing across from us is khorne himself i scream For the Emporers Memory and charge knife in hand followed by about a hundred fifty guardsmen i stab out one of khornes eyes before dying
Tadashi wrote: Only if you're a psyker...normal Human souls 'dissolve' quickly, so even without the Emperor's protection, there's a good chance Daemons won't get your soul.
So again, death really sucks. You've got a chance of a daemon getting your soul, or you have a chance of your soul just dissolving. Both options do not inspire confidence.
Tadashi wrote: Only if you're a psyker...normal Human souls 'dissolve' quickly, so even without the Emperor's protection, there's a good chance Daemons won't get your soul.
So again, death really sucks. You've got a chance of a daemon getting your soul, or you have a chance of your soul just dissolving. Both options do not inspire confidence.
I'll take my chances. Dissolving is quite painless anyway - restful peace. Psykers have a chance of reincarnating instead of dissolving, BTW.
Well, I reckon I'd probably be sucked into the Warp along with the entire galaxy, now that the Emperor can't hold back Chaos from spilling into the Materium.
Tadashi wrote: (otherwise, I'll take my chances with Chaos rather than xenos).
I can see why you wouldn't want to join the Eldar, since they would almost certainly manipulate you to your grave, but the Tau are pretty chill as long as you do your job, pay your taxes, and stay in line. At worst, you might get drafted into an army with a better life expectancy than the Imperial Guard, albeit one that still has a hilariously low life expectancy.
Void__Dragon wrote: Well, I reckon I'd probably be sucked into the Warp along with the entire galaxy, now that the Emperor can't hold back Chaos from spilling into the Materium.
Sadly, this is probably the most realistic option.
KingDeath wrote: Since my brain is intact and i have no fascist tendencies, i join the Tau Empire and help to salvage whatever is left of the galaxy and the human species after 10000 years of madness.
Burn foul traitor in the flames of damnation! I
I will fall in gloroius war in the name of the emperor, than to kneel before inhumane and foul overlords! My sword will sing my death hymn as I take you with me into death!
I'd be a planetary Lord searching for salvation in the form of billions of people worshiping me. That way, when I die, my soul is fused to such entity and I become immortal! There is only one way to ensure my path to immortality, I'd have to lie to my followers and promise them everlasting glory, conquer nearby systems to secure enough emotional base, and find the cult of the Illuminati to invoke the demon into me. I shall never die! Mwuahaha!
ENOZONE wrote: I'd be a planetary Lord searching for salvation in the form of billions of people worshiping me. That way, when I die, my soul is fused to such entity and I become immortal! There is only one way to ensure my path to immortality, I'd have to lie to my followers and promise them everlasting glory, conquer nearby systems to secure enough emotional base, and find the cult of the Illuminati to invoke the demon into me. I shall never die! Mwuahaha!
My flamer has several issues to discuss with you! BURN HERETIC
Looks like I'd go out leading my Guardsmen and Marines in a last desperate charge into the traitor hordes. Better to die a hero than to live a coward, after all!
See, the Emperor was about the only thing holding the warp at bay. So, demons would be EVERYWHERE and unstoppable. So the Tau would be over-run and killed. The Eldar may be able to evade them, but they would still die out or just not accept anyone who's not Eldar. Chaos would be the most..."accepting" of a new cultist, but you would most likely just end up being turned into spawn or used as a meat-shield for a Chaos Marine.....yeah you're gonna die no matter what hahahha
ENOZONE wrote: I'd be a planetary Lord searching for salvation in the form of billions of people worshiping me. That way, when I die, my soul is fused to such entity and I become immortal! There is only one way to ensure my path to immortality, I'd have to lie to my followers and promise them everlasting glory, conquer nearby systems to secure enough emotional base, and find the cult of the Illuminati to invoke the demon into me. I shall never die! Mwuahaha!
The Illuminati aren't a cult - they're a secret society, kinda like the Human equivalent of Harlequins and Solitaires. That cult you speak of was just a puppet they used to keep the Inquisition off their backs (which was also helped by the fact that many Inquisitors - including the ones who ultimately purged the cult - are also Illuminati).
I'd fuse with a Hive Tyrant like this one Tech Magos from Victories of the Space Marines or Fear the Alien (forgot which), then become the first Living Saint of the New Age when I lead the 'Nids around to eat Tau and stuff. Twould be fun. NOMNOMNOM. No one has mentioned Necrons yet as they'd be likely to survive the madness.
rally the remaining Imperial armies under my NidFUSION and assist with keeping everyone else at bay
LoneLictor wrote: The Imperium isn't noble, and not all chaos worshippers are crazy. Just a lot of them.
The Imperium has protected Mankind for ten thousand years. The methods are certainly ignoble (at least the Inquisition's methods) unless you're Imperial Guard/Space Marines, but the cause of Mankind is a noble cause.
I'd join the Red Corsairs and frickin' reave, pillage and party hard throughout the galaxy, taking what I want, doing what I want, killing who I want, and having a damn good time while doing it!
"Any attack against national liberty and independence shall meet armed resistance. Each message that resistance should cease is false. Sweden wants to defend itself, can defend itself and shall to defend itself. "
Resistance should be constant at all times., It is on you it depends - Your effort, your determination, your will to survive., We will never give up!
To actively participate in the resistance movement requires courage and good nerves .... Do not give the enemy any assistance other than humanitarian aid. Refrain from personal intercourse with him. Leave no information about the Swedish Armed Forces. Participate not in the propaganda against Sweden. Oppose it instead.
It is treason to help the enemy!"
For 40k, exchange Sweden for the IOM... and remove the part about humanitarian aid.
Death - Going to copy Lukas the trickster on this one, have a stasis grenade(heck why not a couple) fitted into my body and charge the daemonic hordes with bolter and blade!
Thinking about this more, I think the Tau would eventually notice that us humans are the problem (regarding Chaos incursions into the Materium) and would therefore ultimately herd us into death camps for efficient obliteration.
So, if the Emperor were to die -- rather than siding with the foul xenos in the vain hope they might continue his work -- I suppose I would live out the remaining futile moments of human existence just doing what he had ordered from the start: burn the heretic, kill the mutant, purge the unclean, und so weiter.
I'd continue to sit on my tomb world, and eat Necron popcorn, as trillions of humans make this decision, seeing how it all plays out.
I might even chuckle.
Maybe.
If I had to choose as a human?
FOR THE EMPRAH! GIVE THEM STEEL!
Shlazaor wrote: or a badass mechsuit in which to purge the disgusting filth of the galaxy?
Problem is, the fish wouldn't even let you work on the assembly line much less get in the cockpit. Defecting to Tau would more realistically mean digging latrines for the Kroot until being loaded into an oven.
I will not die, I will not surrender, I will not succumb, I will not be tainted. I will run, all those I can gather, all those that will follow, and all that I can possibly take with me. And I will run, no matter what lies ahead, and no matter how painful, hopeless, and never ending it will seem. I will run, and I will never surrender. Those that I take with me and I will survive. All other choices are not choices at all.
Manchu wrote: Thinking about this more, I think the Tau would eventually notice that us humans are the problem (regarding Chaos incursions into the Materium) and would therefore ultimately herd us into death camps for efficient obliteration.
More likely, they wouldn't risk angering and alienating their (now) most populous species, especially in a time of great strife when they need all the manpower they can get.
Or they just won't figure out the connection, because there is no easily accessible evidence in-universe, especially for blunt aliens who are ignorant to the way the warp works. It'd be like a guy who doesn't know what soul stones are figuring out that the Eldar are using their captured souls to build a god to kill Slaanesh and deciding to help them.
Manchu wrote: Problem is, the fish wouldn't even let you work on the assembly line much less get in the cockpit. Defecting to Tau would more realistically mean digging latrines for the Kroot until being loaded into an oven.
The existence of Gue'vesa auxilliaries alongside traditional human settlements shows that the Tau allow humans more flexibility in some cases than the actual Tau castes, although obviously not as much respect or prestige. There is nothing in the fluff to indicate that life under the Tau is particularly more oppressive than on a normal Imperial world.
Also, a human will never get a mech suit because mech suit aren't built for humans, because the Tau are smug and because it's a waste of resources.
Manchu wrote: Thinking about this more, I think the Tau would eventually notice that us humans are the problem (regarding Chaos incursions into the Materium) and would therefore ultimately herd us into death camps for efficient obliteration.
More likely, they wouldn't risk angering and alienating their (now) most populous species, especially in a time of great strife when they need all the manpower they can get.
Or they just won't figure out the connection, because there is no easily accessible evidence in-universe, especially for blunt aliens who are ignorant to the way the warp works. It'd be like a guy who doesn't know what soul stones are figuring out that the Eldar are using their captured souls to build a god to kill Slaanesh and deciding to help them.
After the Fall of Medusa VII, the Tau know enough about the Warp and its connection to mortal beings. And if the Tau are as smart as people say they are, they'd be quick to connect the increase in Warp anomalies to the death of the Emperor. And its only going to be a matter of time before someone says "For the Greater Good of the galaxy, we must wipe out Mankind to defeat Chaos."
All of you who are going to defect to Tau Empire:
How long do you think Tau will survive Black Crusade when Chaos Forces realize that lot of Humans have escaped there?
Fleeing to Tau only means that you are going to end up in concentration camp because Tau don't trust Humans. And when larger number of Humans start appearing they will think it's some kind of invasion and it will open fire. And how many pirate lords will attack Tau to use the opportunity of this whole mess to become a little more rich?
I am afraid that Humanity defecting to Tau Empire will only doom it. But I guess that the further people are from Terra the faster they forget their origins and their loyalty...
Fleeing to Tau only means that you are going to end up in concentration camp because Tau don't trust Humans. And when larger number of Humans start appearing they will think it's some kind of invasion and it will open fire. And how many pirate lords will attack Tau to use the opportunity of this whole mess to become a little more rich?[
More Humans = more psykers. Daemonbait...and with no Astartes nearby, its gonna be a massacre.
I am afraid that Humanity defecting to Tau Empire will only doom it. But I guess that the further people are from Terra the faster they forget their origins and their loyalty...
Peasants (spits)...what did you expect from backwater yokels, brother?
Arn't You two already dead in some gloriously silly death fantasy..seems some people want a second chance, and who knows how that will play out.
the fall of the old ones did not destroy the galaxy, the fall of the eldar did not, and the fall of the humans wont either...the universe is a big place..humans wont be missed that much...and the galaxy will spin on, just different.
the fall of the old ones did not destroy the galaxy, the fall of the eldar did not, and the fall of the humans wont either...the universe is a big place..humans wont be missed that much...and the galaxy will spin on, just different.
The Fall of the Old Ones damned the galaxy to endless war between their imperfect creations (Orks and Eldar), their nemesis (the Necrons), and the naturally-evolving Humans...the Fall of the Eldar ripped open the walls between this world and the next...and the Fall of the Humans will allow the Four Powers to manifest in reality. If you don't see why that's bad, you are beyond reason.
and the universe spins on..and yours is a humanacentric view from the rear end of a zealot..likey the human race will benifit from the removal of all the death wishing superstitious, small minded bigoted weirdos..and be alot quieter.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: and the universe spins on..and yours is a humanacentric view from the rear end of a zealot..likey the human race will benifit from the removal of all the death wishing superstitious, small minded bigoted weirdos..and be alot quieter.
But its ok you wont be there..so no worries.
Where the Four Powers manifest, there will be no time, no space, no matter, only Chaos...
Tadashi wrote: After the Fall of Medusa VII, the Tau know enough about the Warp and its connection to mortal beings. And if the Tau are as smart as people say they are, they'd be quick to connect the increase in Warp anomalies to the death of the Emperor. And its only going to be a matter of time before someone says "For the Greater Good of the galaxy, we must wipe out Mankind to defeat Chaos."
Which they'll be unable to connect to "humans are the main source of energy for the Chaos Gods" unless they think the Emperor's death means more humans appeared. And they've still only scratched the surface when it comes to the Warp, I can tell you that.
Either way, "We must wipe out mankind to defeat Chaos" still won't be even close to feasible, because large portions of mankind would not under the control of the Tau and the Tau would lack the means to effectively eradicate the species.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: All of you who are going to defect to Tau Empire:
How long do you think Tau will survive Black Crusade when Chaos Forces realize that lot of Humans have escaped there?
Not very. Still longer than I would with the "die" option.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: Fleeing to Tau only means that you are going to end up in concentration camp because Tau don't trust Humans. And when larger number of Humans start appearing they will think it's some kind of invasion and it will open fire.
Dawn of War's is a pretty bad source to use.
I think large numbers of civilians appearing with white flags should be fine, considering that these are the idiots who threw a party for Necrons.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: And how many pirate lords will attack Tau to use the opportunity of this whole mess to become a little more rich?
A lot. Of course, this is a risk with any of the options except joining the Eldar, and the Eldar almost certainly won't let humans join.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: I am afraid that Humanity defecting to Tau Empire will only doom it. But I guess that the further people are from Terra the faster they forget their origins and their loyalty...
All of the options are not good for humanity, because the Imperium is dead in this scenario. When the options are "Die in battle, join Chaos, join the Eldar, join the Tau," the first ends in death, the second means enslavement to Dark Gods, and the third is impossible. That leaves "join the Tau if you want to live something that can still be called living."
See there are a few humans capable of rational thought
Besides the time frame for this galactic collapse could be very long..and Tau advance their tech very fast..who knows maybe they will eventually know how to build really big halos......
Besides Chaos occupied worlds will become vacation sites for Orks..they do so love the hardest fights.
Besides the time frame for this galactic collapse could be very long..and Tau advance their tech very fast..who knows maybe they will eventually know how to build really big halos......
They are then defeated by that most terrifying opponent of all: copyright infringement.
Besides Chaos occupied worlds will become vacation sites for Orks..they do so love the hardest fights.
Well, seeing as the galaxy dissolves into the mire of the Warp, they should enjoy themselves as long as they can. Including the Tau...well, its all the same in the end anyway, so we'll be going on ahead...
mire of the warp or burns itself out into a shadow of what it once was since it favorite food (humans) are reduced to a fraction of their former numbers, and the eye of terror inverts into a anus of ickiness..who knows its all in the realm of silliness now.
But we Tau will welcome you nice folks with cookies and shrimp milk ( dont worry you will get use to it ) and it will become WORKHAMMER 41K where there is only timecards ....
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: mire of the warp or burns itself out into a shadow of what it once was since it favorite food (humans) are reduced to a fraction of their former numbers, and the eye of terror inverts into a anus of ickiness..who knows its all in the realm of silliness now.
But we Tau will welcome you nice folks with cookies and shrimp milk ( dont worry you will get use to it ) and it will become WORKHAMMER 41K where there is only timecards ....
Until GW says`"No, no! This will never work! Go back to grimdark and feed the entire galaxy to Chaos, or all you writers are fired."
And who drinks shrimp milk, that's disgusting.
EDIT: Oh wait, I forgot, Tyranids and Necrons. Even if Chaos doesn't destroy the galaxy, the former will, or the latter will enslave it.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: mire of the warp or burns itself out into a shadow of what it once was since it favorite food (humans) are reduced to a fraction of their former numbers, and the eye of terror inverts into a anus of ickiness..who knows its all in the realm of silliness now.
But we Tau will welcome you nice folks with cookies and shrimp milk ( dont worry you will get use to it ) and it will become WORKHAMMER 41K where there is only timecards ....
If the tau were smart (Which they are) They will put most of humanity to work. Not death camp style work but work as in putting together pulse rifles and drones and things. The surviving soldiers that turned to tau would probably get weapons to help the tau. I imagine a squad of 9 humans with a tau overseer being led into battle.
The thing I don't understand is if there is the option to join elder, does it mean try to join the elder or that if you were to attempt that, you would be successful.
The thing I don't understand is if there is the option to join elder, does it mean try to join the elder or that if you were to attempt that, you would be successful.
Kneeling before Eldar, becoming pawns for the 'games' of the Craftworld Eldar, and slaves and playthings for the Dark Eldar.
1068SCP wrote: More likely, they wouldn't risk angering and alienating their (now) most populous species
There is no scenario where all of humanity would defect to the Greater Good. We'd be talking about a few millions of humans, not the entire species in its teeming billions. And the Tau would almost certainly figure out the connection between the human psyche and the Warp, assuming they don't already have a pretty good idea of it thanks to captured/defected astropaths and battefield experience with sanctioned psykers. The Tau are a smart bunch and figure out things very quickly. Once they knew that any given human mind is a portal by which daemons might stream into the material world, I have every confidence they would begin systematic extermination of all humans under their sway.
1068SCP wrote: The existence of Gue'vesa auxilliaries alongside traditional human settlements shows that the Tau allow humans more flexibility in some cases than the actual Tau castes, although obviously not as much respect or prestige. There is nothing in the fluff to indicate that life under the Tau is particularly more oppressive than on a normal Imperial world.
There are some pretty chilling portrayals of human life under Tau rule in the Death Watch RPG books. But regardless, the death of the Emperor would severely change things. Where the Tau could tolerate humanity before, whatever standard of living that implicates, they would have much more trouble doing so when the Ruinous Powers have free reign throughout the galaxy.
the fall of the old ones did not destroy the galaxy, the fall of the eldar did not, and the fall of the humans wont either...the universe is a big place..humans wont be missed that much...and the galaxy will spin on, just different.
You do know that if Humanity falls the entire Milky Way galaxy will become one giant Eye of Terror?
It will be end to all life as we know it, including Tau as they wil lbe assailed by Daemons on all sides.
Despite being an Eldar player, I would go for the Tau. Both Craftworld Eldar and Tau have their gak together and everyone generally doing what is considered "right" as far as their respective morals are concerned. The Eldar have the means and unity to pull off a massive comeback; unfortunately, most of the craftworlds are just delaying the inevitable (save Beil-Tan) or playing the part of the alien-NPC (Exodites). Their Autarcrian society also doesn't help stop many from going the way of outcast or turning into Dark Eldar (despite their path system). They are simply too despondent and hell-bent on the Rhana Dandra to really retake the galaxy.
The Tau, on the other hand, are even more unified thanks to being psychic-nulls (no chaos versions) and (to my knowledge) no hedonistic cults/factions. They definately have the tech standard and force organization to play a pivotal role. With their Utilitarian society and "The Greater Good" dogma maintained by the Ethereals (Imperial oraters can take some notes from them), they are unquestionally dedicated to their own cause. They also have a good mix of "Glassy-Eyed Newb" and "Not a fething Idiot" which give them a very nice optimistic and pragmatic approach to issues.
It will be end to all life as we know it, including Tau as they wil lbe assailed by Daemons on all sides.
Daemonic incursions will indeed occur more often but it is possible for a new "Emperor" type individual to be born. Remember, the Emperor is nothing more than the amalgamation of the shamen that lead humankind in pre-history times. If another race is gifted with such shamen, they could again give rise to another God-emperor (possibly one even stronger). For some reason, the Tau Ethereals remind me of the leader-shamen but without the psychic goodness.
There is also the possibility of Tyranid being the answer to this. For all we know, the various tendrils creeping in on the galaxy are nothing more than a few pieces of a vastly larger hive system. If this is true, thier ability to calm the warp may eventually render the "local" warp back to its "heaven" state (a warp devoid of chaos) similar to when the Necron, Eldar, Orks, Ctan, and Old Ones duked it out. Unfortunately, this would mean the galaxy being eaten by them.
Shlazaor wrote: or a badass mechsuit in which to purge the disgusting filth of the galaxy?
Problem is, the fish wouldn't even let you work on the assembly line much less get in the cockpit. Defecting to Tau would more realistically mean digging latrines for the Kroot until being loaded into an oven.
I don't subscribe to that viewpoint. If the IoM has collapsed than you bet the Tau will be accepting the men of stout heart and mind with wide open arms to battle the Great Enemy once more.
Chaos is not the Great Enemy of the Tau. The Imperium is. But should the Imperium fall, it does not necessarily follow that Chaos must become the bane of the Tau. Indeed, they would only likely be troubled by the Ruinous Powers to the extent they kept humans around. Understanding this, the Tau would exterminate us.
Manchu wrote: Chaos is not the Great Enemy of the Tau. The Imperium is. But should the Imperium fall, it does not necessarily follow that Chaos must become the bane of the Tau. Indeed, they would only likely be troubled by the Ruinous Powers to the extent they kept humans around. Understanding this, the Tau would exterminate us.
If the IoM collapsed without bringing Chaos down with it then they wouldn't exterminate mankind they would use all of its technologies and lives against the legions Chaos. They already adopt humans into their society now, fight beside them, and they certainly don't believe that human extinction would result in fixing all their problems.
Human extinction would relieve them of one significant problem: likely daemonic incursion. The cost/benefit analysis, from their POV, basically demands genocide.
Manchu wrote: Human extinction would relieve them of one significant problem: likely daemonic incursion. The cost/benefit analysis, from their POV, basically demands genocide.
Empirically denied. Tau already fight besides human beings in their armies right now.
Empirically denied. Tau already fight besides human beings in their armies right now.
But Tau never face great threat to their existence. The largest invasions they ever face was Damocles ( and that was minor Imperial crusade force ) and Gorgon ( that was also minor Hive Fleet taht got destroyed by combined Tau and Guard army groups ).
If Tau was ever attacked like the Imperium at Cadia, Armageddon, Rynns Worlds, Macragge, Tarsis Ultra... they would be screwed. Tau only exists because Imperium suffered all big threats that were going toward them, take Imperium from equation and Tau will get destroyed in 100 or 200 years.
Manchu wrote: Human extinction would relieve them of one significant problem: likely daemonic incursion. The cost/benefit analysis, from their POV, basically demands genocide.
Empirically denied. Tau already fight besides human beings in their armies right now.
Until they realize without the Emperor to keep the Powers back, Humans (whether psychic or not) are living gateways into the Warp. With quadrillions of Humans across the galaxy, its not all that difficult for the Tau to see its for the 'Greater Good' of the galaxy to kill all the Humans. Not that they'll have the chance. Once the Emperor dies, its the end: "If the Emperor fails then the Daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living Human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos." - Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook 5th Edition p. 101
Manchu wrote: Human extinction would relieve them of one significant problem: likely daemonic incursion. The cost/benefit analysis, from their POV, basically demands genocide.
Empirically denied. Tau already fight besides human beings in their armies right now.
Until they realize without the Emperor to keep the Powers back, Humans (whether psychic or not) are living gateways into the Warp. With quadrillions of Humans across the galaxy, its not all that difficult for the Tau to see its for the 'Greater Good' of the galaxy to kill all the Humans. Not that they'll have the chance. Once the Emperor dies, its the end: "If the Emperor fails then the Daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living Human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos." - Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook 5th Edition p. 101
So since game over is boring I am going with mech suit.
Manchu wrote: Human extinction would relieve them of one significant problem: likely daemonic incursion. The cost/benefit analysis, from their POV, basically demands genocide.
Empirically denied. Tau already fight besides human beings in their armies right now.
Until they realize without the Emperor to keep the Powers back, Humans (whether psychic or not) are living gateways into the Warp. With quadrillions of Humans across the galaxy, its not all that difficult for the Tau to see its for the 'Greater Good' of the galaxy to kill all the Humans. Not that they'll have the chance. Once the Emperor dies, its the end: "If the Emperor fails then the Daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living Human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos." - Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook 5th Edition p. 101
So since game over is boring I am going with mech suit.
Feel free...if you can find/pilot one in the swirling madness of the Warp.
Empirically denied. Tau already fight besides human beings in their armies right now.
But Tau never face great threat to their existence. The largest invasions they ever face was Damocles ( and that was minor Imperial crusade force ) and Gorgon ( that was also minor Hive Fleet taht got destroyed by combined Tau and Guard army groups ).
If Tau was ever attacked like the Imperium at Cadia, Armageddon, Rynns Worlds, Macragge, Tarsis Ultra... they would be screwed. Tau only exists because Imperium suffered all big threats that were going toward them, take Imperium from equation and Tau will get destroyed in 100 or 200 years.
Hey, isn't the War of Dakka approaching Armageddon-level? Looks like the fish are in for a beating.
Shlazaor wrote: Empirically denied. Tau already fight besides human beings in their armies right now.
Already answered. Current human auxillaries are not of sufficient number to imply the requisite risk threshold. More importantly, that risk threshold would certainly decrease following the Emperor's death.
Shlazaor wrote: Empirically denied. Tau already fight besides human beings in their armies right now.
Already answered. Current human auxillaries are not of sufficient number to imply the requisite risk threshold. More importantly, that risk threshold would certainly decrease following the Emperor's death.
Inaccurate. If Chaos wins than they are fethed beyond all belief anyways. They will take the remaining human recruits theoff the inevitable.
Shlazaor wrote: Empirically denied. Tau already fight besides human beings in their armies right now.
Already answered. Current human auxillaries are not of sufficient number to imply the requisite risk threshold. More importantly, that risk threshold would certainly decrease following the Emperor's death.
Inaccurate. If Chaos wins than they are fethed beyond all belief anyways. They will take the remaining human recruits theoff the inevitable.
Hmmm...and? Will they survive amidst infinite Chaos? The Eldar at least can hide amidst the labyrinths of the Webway, and the Necrons alone possess the technology to generate null fields around their worlds - you can try to negotiate with them, but I have no doubt the price would be more than the Tau can afford/be willing to pay. Tyranids and Orks...well, they'll have no problem with Chaos.
Shlazaor wrote: Empirically denied. Tau already fight besides human beings in their armies right now.
Already answered. Current human auxillaries are not of sufficient number to imply the requisite risk threshold. More importantly, that risk threshold would certainly decrease following the Emperor's death.
Inaccurate. If Chaos wins than they are fethed beyond all belief anyways. They will take the remaining human recruits theoff the inevitable.
Hmmm...and? Will they survive amidst infinite Chaos? The Eldar at least can hide amidst the labyrinths of the Webway, and the Necrons alone possess the technology to generate null fields around their worlds - you can try to negotiate with them, but I have no doubt the price would be more than the Tau can afford/be willing to pay. Tyranids and Orks...well, they'll have no problem with Chaos.
The "Tau decide to kill all humans" idea is probably the worst option the Tau could take.
First, it will start a civil war that will likely destroy the Tau. They let human auxiliaries keep their weapons. They'll be angering a significant portion of their population that is armed. Humanity numbers in the trillions, so it's not unlikely for the humans to actually outnumber the Tau in their own Empire once the Tau begin accepting refugees. Then the humans will have the aid of any of the psychic races in the Tau Empire, including the Nicassar, who are more psychic. So not only are the Tau going to be declaring war on their human population, they'll be declaring war on at least another one of their client races. And this is the bare minimum; it's unlikely for the more pragmatic client races to keep fighting on the Tau's side when they see the Tau backstabbing everyone with genocidal wars, meaning the Tau will probably be fighting a war with none of their Kroot or Demiurg against a massive army of angry humans with Nicassar support.
See why that's kinda a bad idea?
Second, the Tau can't afford the hassle. Any potential threat of civil war or mass depopulation is a horrible idea when Hive Fleet Leviathan is breathing down your necks. It's tactical suicide.
Third, it won't matter for repelling Chaos. Why? Because Random Band of Chaos Dudes #234 doesn't care if you have any aliens with connection to the warp or not, they're still going to fly to your world, summon some daemons, and let you enjoy getting your head chopped off by a Bloodletter. You have two options here; either you have all the numbers you can to help you fight Random Band of Chaos Dudes #234, or you are fighting the forces of Chaos alone, without any help from the guys who have 10,000 years of experience against them and probably with a massive number of casualties from a civil war.
Manchu wrote: Chaos is not the Great Enemy of the Tau. The Imperium is.
Nope. The Tau see humans as vultures see a corpse. They fight the Imperium, but converting a world of Imperials is far better than converting a world of Orks or Chaos supporters.
Their real "Great Enemy" would probably be the Tyranids. They can't be converted to the Greater Good, render potential Tau planets completely uninhabitable, and have been a constant looming threat for the fishies.
Manchu wrote: There are some pretty chilling portrayals of human life under Tau rule in the Death Watch RPG books.
I haven't read Deathwatch and am just going by codex fluff and the Black Library. Do you mine pulling a few of those specific sections out?
Manchu wrote: Chaos is not the Great Enemy of the Tau. The Imperium is.
Nope. The Tau see humans as vultures see a corpse. They fight the Imperium, but converting a world of Imperials is far better than converting a world of Orks or Chaos supporters.
You people are forgetting one thing - the people the Tau have been encountering are backwater yokels from the Imperial frontier. The Imperium's rule there is closer to a federation rather than an empire. Once you reach the Imperial heartland, you'll find that people there hate xenos from the bottom of their heart, with loyalty to the Emperor as a foundation/cornerstone of their very soul.
Their real "Great Enemy" would probably be the Tyranids. They can't be converted to the Greater Good, render potential Tau planets completely uninhabitable, and have been a constant looming threat for the fishies.
I suppose Orks and Necrons are just non-entities for the Tau then?
Tadashi wrote: You people are forgetting one thing - the people the Tau have been encountering are backwater yokels from the Imperial frontier. The Imperium's rule there is closer to a federation rather than an empire. Once you reach the Imperial heartland, you'll find that people there hate xenos from the bottom of their heart, with loyalty to the Emperor as a foundation/cornerstone of their very soul.
Pavonis is a major trading world. The Tau are definitely not just trying to assimilate "backwater yokels".
And I have no doubt that there will be people with undying loyalty to the Emperor as the foundation of their soul. There will probably be multiple attempts to set up miniature Imperiums by planetary governors or other folks with great power, each claiming to be the Emperor's heir or herald or some nonsense like that, while others will be formed by people just trying to rally together humanity. It will definitely be an interesting landscape. However, I have no doubt that many people will join the Tau, because they'll be taking advantage of the situation to advertise themselves as an option, just like they always do.
Tadashi wrote: I suppose Orks and Necrons are just non-entities for the Tau then?
Did I ever say that?
The Orks might be another choice for the Tau's "great enemy", although there isn't much mention of them interacting with the Tau. The Tau have no fething idea what the Necrons even are (See: The Necron celebration party).
Either way, the Imperium is not the Tau's "great enemy". Neither is Chaos.
1068SCP wrote: However, I have no doubt that many people will join the Tau, because they'll be taking advantage of the situation to advertise themselves as an option, just like they always do.
You're too late - by the time the Tau Empire reaches that far, the entire place will be overrun by the Forces of Chaos/Orks/Necrons or consumed by Tyranids. The Astartes and the Mechanicum will already have established heavily-fortified pocket empires, and the Dark Eldar slave realms. Choose your poison...assuming the worst doesn't happen and Chaos just happens to swallow the galaxy whole...
Tadashi wrote: You're too late - by the time the Tau Empire reaches that far, the entire place will be overrun by the Forces of Chaos/Orks/Necrons or consumed by Tyranids. The Astartes and the Mechanicum will already have established heavily-fortified pocket empires, and the Dark Eldar slave realms.
Um, don't know about you, but I don't think anyone is going to be choosing to join the Dark Eldar. Well, maybe the Tau, but they're kinda idiots.
There will doubtless be plenty of humans still left. The galaxy is crawling with them, and as I said, it's probably that many people will take advantage of the chaos to create their own mini-empires; the Mechanicum will be among them. The Astartes... Not sure how they'll factor in. There are so few of them that I'm almost tempted to say that they won't, but that's just being a jackass about numbers.
Tadashi wrote: Choose your poison...assuming the worst doesn't happen and Chaos just happens to swallow the galaxy whole...
If that happens, your entire poll is pointless, because the only real options are to die now or to live by yourself as a crazy hermit (carrying a convenient method of suicide for when things go sour). I'd probably choose "die now" option.
Tadashi wrote: You're too late - by the time the Tau Empire reaches that far, the entire place will be overrun by the Forces of Chaos/Orks/Necrons or consumed by Tyranids. The Astartes and the Mechanicum will already have established heavily-fortified pocket empires, and the Dark Eldar slave realms.
Um, don't know about you, but I don't think anyone is going to be choosing to join the Dark Eldar.
Whoever said they'd be joining the Dark Eldar? Slave realms...where Humans are raised like cattle for the Dark Eldar's own purposes.
There will doubtless be plenty of humans still left. The galaxy is crawling with them, and as I said, it's probably that many people will take advantage of the chaos to create their own mini-empires.
Outside of the Astartes/Mechanicum, unless they're united on a very large-scale, they cannot hope to stand on their own.
Tadashi wrote: Whoever said they'd be joining the Dark Eldar? Slave realms...where Humans are raised like cattle for the Dark Eldar's own purposes.
Then why did you bring them up with Astartes and Mechanicum? Just add them to the long list of things to be scared of.
Tadashi wrote: Outside of the Astartes/Mechanicum, unless they're united on a very large-scale, they cannot hope to stand on their own.
I can't believe an Emperor botherer would have so little faith in what humanity can do.
The Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard, PDFs, Rogue Traders with private armies, and Sororitas still exist. Planets will probably begin fortifying as they wait for the inevitable. Plus, in a universe as chaotic as 40k, there's always the option that your planet just plain won't get noticed.
Either way, we're no longer arguing what you would do, we're arguing what the citizens in a giant dead Imperium who lack any knowledge of their situation would do.
Tadashi wrote: Outside of the Astartes/Mechanicum, unless they're united on a very large-scale, they cannot hope to stand on their own.
I can't believe an Emperor botherer would have so little faith in what humanity can do.
(cheek twitching) I. AM. NOT. AN. EMPEROR. BOTHERER. Read my sig...its quite obvious that I refuse to accept the Emperor's divinity.
The Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard, PDFs, Rogue Traders with private armies, and Sororitas still exist. Planets will probably begin fortifying as they wait for the inevitable. Plus, in a universe as chaotic as 40k, there's always the option that your planet just plain won't get noticed.
Without Terra to keep them in line, the first two will fall apart. The middle two are no good without support from the greater Imperium. The last are the most vulnerable...they might believe in the Emperor's return for a short while, but when he fails to and they lose hope, chances are, they'll be the first to fall to Chaos. And you delude yourself if you think the Forces of Chaos/the Tyranids/the Dark Eldar/the Necrons will blink and ignore worlds ripe for the taking. The Orks might, but if they form Waaagh! entire sectors will be laid waste.
Tadashi wrote: (cheek twitching) I. AM. NOT. AN. EMPEROR. BOTHERER. Read my sig...its quite obvious that I refuse to accept the Emperor's divinity.
Frankly, it doesn't matter. The most zealous adherant of the Emperor and the most zealous believer in the Imperial Doctrine become one and the same.
Tadashi wrote: Without Terra to keep them in line, the first two will fall apart. The middle two are no good without support from the greater Imperium.
I highly doubt that the Imperial Navy and Guard will just go bananas instead of trying to fortify and do what they do best. Rogue traders are essentially self-sufficient and the PDF are still decent soldiers; they're just not hardasses like the Guard.
Tadashi wrote: The last are the most vulnerable...they might believe in the Emperor's return for a short while, but when he fails to and they lose hope, chances are, they'll be the first to fall to Chaos.
Really? You think the Sororitas, the people who dedicate their entire lives to an Emperor they never see, are just going to break because some guy heard he's dead?
When their miracles still work in battle, they will believe the Emperor is still with them.
Tadashi wrote: And you delude yourself if you think the Forces of Chaos/the Tyranids/the Dark Eldar/the Necrons will blink and ignore worlds ripe for the taking. The Orks might, but if they form Waaagh! entire sectors will be laid waste.
The warp is a weird place. Worlds are often revealed after hundreds of years without contact with the outside world. It's not impossible to believe that some will just be missed.
Tadashi wrote: The last are the most vulnerable...they might believe in the Emperor's return for a short while, but when he fails to and they lose hope, chances are, they'll be the first to fall to Chaos.
Really? You think the Sororitas, the people who dedicate their entire lives to an Emperor they never see, are just going to break because some guy heard he's dead?
When their miracles still work in battle, they will believe the Emperor is still with them.
And if he really is dead? Those miracles will cease to function. They might wait for his resurrection, but after a few decades, let alone a couple of centuries, they will lose hope.
Tadashi wrote: And you delude yourself if you think the Forces of Chaos/the Tyranids/the Dark Eldar/the Necrons will blink and ignore worlds ripe for the taking. The Orks might, but if they form Waaagh! entire sectors will be laid waste.
The warp is a weird place. Worlds are often revealed after hundreds of years without contact with the outside world. It's not impossible to believe that some will just be missed.
I'm impressed to say the least...the Tau now have access to the Webway or to Necron null-field technology (read: sarcasm).
Tadashi wrote: And if he really is dead? Those miracles will cease to function. They might wait for his resurrection, but after a few decades, let alone a couple of centuries, they will lose hope.
You don't understand the way a zealously religious mind can work with confirmation bias.
The miracles are kinda a gray spot in the fluff; it's not clear exactly what causes them. Either way, I see the Sisters holding fast. If his death causes the miracles to stop working, their faith is validated (Because it was obviously the Emperor causing the miracles if his death stops them) and they will work hard to ensure that they live up to his memory, or perhaps he is just testing him. If they keep working, he's obviously alive.
Tadashi wrote: I'm impressed to say the least...the Tau now have access to the Webway or to Necron null-field technology (read: sarcasm).
I never said they did. You'll notice I said "worlds are often revealed after hundreds of years without contact with the outside world."
Either way, it's pointless arguing whether the Tau will reach that far, because the topic of debate is what you will do, and joining the Tau is pretty much the only option to take if you want a chance of a comfortable life. Dying for the glory of a dead Imperium is no better than screaming at the void.
Tadashi wrote: I'm impressed to say the least...the Tau now have access to the Webway or to Necron null-field technology (read: sarcasm).
I never said they did. You'll notice I said "worlds are often revealed after hundreds of years without contact with the outside world."p/quote]
Said worlds are inaccessible via Warp travel.
Either way, it's pointless arguing whether the Tau will reach that far, because the topic of debate is what you will do, and joining the Tau is pretty much the only option to take if you want a chance of a comfortable life. Dying for the glory of a dead Imperium is no better than screaming at the void.
If the Tau can't reach that far, then they wouldn't reach the Tau either. The Astronomican's gone...the only way for long-range warp jumps to function would be to use sorcery to 'guide' the ship through the Warp.
Tadashi wrote: If the Tau can't reach that far, then they wouldn't reach the Tau either. The Astronomican's gone...the only way for long-range warp jumps to function would be to use sorcery to 'guide' the ship through the Warp.
Okay, so joining the Tau is no longer an option due to interstellar distance? Death is the only option in your poll that works then.
Tadashi wrote: If the Tau can't reach that far, then they wouldn't reach the Tau either. The Astronomican's gone...the only way for long-range warp jumps to function would be to use sorcery to 'guide' the ship through the Warp.
Okay, so joining the Tau is no longer an option due to interstellar distance? Death is the only option in your poll that works then.
If you're in the frontier, feel free. Just don't complain when the sterilize/re-educate *cough*brainwash*cough* you. For those a long, LONG, way from the frontier, pick something else.
Manchu wrote: Chaos is not the Great Enemy of the Tau. The Imperium is.
Nope. The Tau see humans as vultures see a corpse. They fight the Imperium, but converting a world of Imperials is far better than converting a world of Orks or Chaos supporters.
Manchu wrote: Chaos is not the Great Enemy of the Tau. The Imperium is.
Nope. The Tau see humans as vultures see a corpse. They fight the Imperium, but converting a world of Imperials is far better than converting a world of Orks or Chaos supporters.
He hasn't. I definitely support that there is solid evidence that writers have interpreted the Tau as brainwashing/treating humans like gak out there. They were originally designed to be the brightest of the races left but were retconned to become darker due to reception among some in the fanbase. That being said the Tau are starting to using more and more human Human auxiliary and I personally have always prescribed to the interpretation that the Tau ideals of the Greater Good are genuine and good but the method of biological manipulation by the Ethereal's is probably legitimate and one of those "the ends justify the means" philosophies. If nothing else the fall of Terra will prompt the Tau to convert and ally with whatever factions are interested in joining them in hopes of increasing their chances of survival (which are in my opinion neglible though by the time Terra falls the Empire could be vast and well on their way toward ascension as the next Order superpower).
Simple for me really: join the IG, get a lasgun, put said lasgun on full auto, shoot my entire unit in the back, make a summoning circle out of their corpses, summon daemons to kill everyone else, then lol my way to the Eye of Terror.
More likely, the highest honor you'll achieve is having your soul used as a loin cloth for a plaguebearer. But Chaos will no doubt be grateful for your support (nudge nudge).
And if he really is dead? Those miracles will cease to function. They might wait for his resurrection, but after a few decades, let alone a couple of centuries, they will lose hope.
Durza wrote: Simple for me really: join the IG, get a lasgun, put said lasgun on full auto, shoot my entire unit in the back, make a summoning circle out of their corpses, summon daemons to kill everyone else, then lol my way to the Eye of Terror.
Possibly the best thing I've read yet on this forum.
That said, I would be the Commissar to shoot you in the back of the head. (Just kidding I'd probably just join in)
That's certainly disturbing. It sounds similar to the Argentinian government's behavior during the disappearances.
However, you admit in your own post that such behavior is similar to that of the Imperium; the only real difference is that the family members are brain-washed. Which is terrible, yes, but it's still a superior choice to "you die", "you get enslaved by Chaos" and "you get tortured by the Dark Eldar."
Manchu wrote: What source says the Tau prefer to colonize Human- rather than Ork- or Chaos-controlled worlds? I mean, what do you think O'Shovah was doing?
Common sense.
And O'Shovah was fighting costly wars against Orks just to grab the terrain they stood on (A stupid decision by the way; Ork worlds are difficult to keep because of the spores they leave behind). The Tau would have tried to grab those worlds either the Imperium or Orks, but against the Imperium there are always the options of subterfuge, trade, and cultural assimilation. Against the Orks, there is only war.
1068SCP wrote: ...but against the Imperium there are always the options of subterfuge, trade, and cultural assimilation.
Not really. Tau have it easy because they're on the Imperial Frontier - if they catch the attention of the Imperial heartland, its the end. The Damocles Gulf Crusade was only a minor one, barely worthy of the title 'Crusade'. Likewise, majority of engagements between the Tau and the Imperium are minor skirmishes, at least as far as the greater Imperium are concerned. The only time the Tau have ever truly engaged a significant fraction of the Imperium's might would be the Zeist Campaign, with over ten Chapters involved. Worthy of a large-scale Imperial Crusade, they not only stopped the Tau advance, they forced it to retreat, and only the greater Imperium's decision that the Tau were not important enough to warrant Guard and Naval support for a push into the Tau heartland prevented a Crusade from materializing.
1068SCP wrote: ...but against the Imperium there are always the options of subterfuge, trade, and cultural assimilation.
Not really. Tau have it easy because they're on the Imperial Frontier - if they catch the attention of the Imperial heartland, its the end. The Damocles Gulf Crusade was only a minor one, barely worthy of the title 'Crusade'. Likewise, majority of engagements between the Tau and the Imperium are minor skirmishes, at least as far as the greater Imperium are concerned. The only time the Tau have ever truly engaged a significant fraction of the Imperium's might would be the Zeist Campaign, with over ten Chapters involved. Worthy of a large-scale Imperial Crusade, they not only stopped the Tau advance, they forced it to retreat, and only the greater Imperium's decision that the Tau were not important enough to warrant Guard and Naval support for a push into the Tau heartland prevented a Crusade from materializing.
My quoted comment was about why the Tau would consider Imperial worlds better targets for colonization than Ork worlds.
You somehow misconstrued that as a statement that the Tau could be a significant military threat to the Imperium.
1068SCP wrote: ...but against the Imperium there are always the options of subterfuge, trade, and cultural assimilation.
Not really. Tau have it easy because they're on the Imperial Frontier - if they catch the attention of the Imperial heartland, its the end. The Damocles Gulf Crusade was only a minor one, barely worthy of the title 'Crusade'. Likewise, majority of engagements between the Tau and the Imperium are minor skirmishes, at least as far as the greater Imperium are concerned. The only time the Tau have ever truly engaged a significant fraction of the Imperium's might would be the Zeist Campaign, with over ten Chapters involved. Worthy of a large-scale Imperial Crusade, they not only stopped the Tau advance, they forced it to retreat, and only the greater Imperium's decision that the Tau were not important enough to warrant Guard and Naval support for a push into the Tau heartland prevented a Crusade from materializing.
My quoted comment was about why the Tau would consider Imperial worlds better targets for colonization than Ork worlds.
You somehow misconstrued that as a statement that the Tau could be a significant military threat to the Imperium.
Subverting Imperial worlds IS an act of war, at least IRL. Thankfully (for the Tau at least), the greater Imperium sees them as little more than a frontier annoyance.
Tadashi wrote: Subverting Imperial worlds IS an act of war, at least IRL. Thankfully (for the Tau at least), the greater Imperium sees them as little more than a frontier annoyance.
Again: This has nothing to do with my argument that the Tau would almost certainly prefer conquering Imperial worlds to Ork ones or Tyranid-stricken ones, and therefore they do not see the Imperium as "The Great Enemy".
Stop trying to turn this into "Who would win: Tau vs Imperium". It's irrelevant to the current topic and we all know the answer anyways.
Tadashi wrote: Subverting Imperial worlds IS an act of war, at least IRL. Thankfully (for the Tau at least), the greater Imperium sees them as little more than a frontier annoyance.
Again: This has nothing to do with my argument that the Tau would almost certainly prefer conquering Imperial worlds to Ork ones or Tyranid-stricken ones, and therefore they do not see the Imperium as "The Great Enemy".
There is only one 'Great Enemy' - Chaos. Even the Eldar would agree with Humans on that.
Tadashi wrote: Subverting Imperial worlds IS an act of war, at least IRL. Thankfully (for the Tau at least), the greater Imperium sees them as little more than a frontier annoyance.
Again: This has nothing to do with my argument that the Tau would almost certainly prefer conquering Imperial worlds to Ork ones or Tyranid-stricken ones, and therefore they do not see the Imperium as "The Great Enemy".
Stop trying to turn this into "Who would win: Tau vs Imperium". It's irrelevant to the current topic and we all know the answer anyways.
sorry 1068SCP anytime Tau are mentioned or discussed in a thread where the imperium is concerned it always devolves into this..its best to smile , nod , and back away from the crazies.
Tadashi wrote: There is only one 'Great Enemy' - Chaos. Even the Eldar would agree with Humans on that.
Then we are in agreement (Although the Tau are almost certainly unaware of Chaos's danger).
For which they should be thankful...for now. I believed its mentioned somewhere that their cosmopolitan nature is their greatest strength, but also their greatest weakness - the assimilation of other races, in particular those with psychic potential, could prove disastrous in the future.
1068SCP wrote: However, you admit in your own post that such behavior is similar to that of the Imperium; the only real difference is that the family members are brain-washed. Which is terrible, yes, but it's still a superior choice to "you die", "you get enslaved by Chaos" and "you get tortured by the Dark Eldar."
Life under the Imperium is basically enslavement. And life under the Tau is basically enslavement. While it is not ideal to be a slave to anyone, it's better to be enslaved by your own species than alien filth. No matter how badly another human treats you, you are both still humans and apparently no amount of gene-therapy, augments, or shiny medals can really change that. But with the xeno, there is no commonality. Accepting the alien as your master is just as foul a self-debasement as worshiping the Great Enemy because both are ultimately admissions of human worthlessness. A human can find dignity in serving humanity, even in the most menial capacity. Kneel before the xenos, and you lose everything worthwhile -- for the sake of what? What good is a life not spent in obedience to the Emperor?
Manchu wrote: What source says the Tau prefer to colonize Human- rather than Ork- or Chaos-controlled worlds? I mean, what do you think O'Shovah was doing?
Common sense.
And O'Shovah was fighting costly wars against Orks just to grab the terrain they stood on (A stupid decision by the way; Ork worlds are difficult to keep because of the spores they leave behind). The Tau would have tried to grab those worlds either the Imperium or Orks, but against the Imperium there are always the options of subterfuge, trade, and cultural assimilation. Against the Orks, there is only war.
The Tau are a colonial race. They're looking for more space for their own. Yes, they will give whoever is already there the option of surrendering and yes, there is some chance humans might accept and no chance that orks will. But that doesn't change that what the Tau primarily want is the world. Their actions have shown that their preferences for expansion are not contingent upon whoever may be currently occupying a planet. The Tau do not shy away from war.
I find it interesting that so often the Imperium's oppressive behavior and bigotry is justified by readers in the name of survival of the species, and that survival of humanity is worth any price. By that logic, humanity should immediately submit to Chaos or aliens if the Imperium is no longer a viable way of ensuring survival. Yet it is interesting that people then seem to be willing to choose the path of suicidal last stand despite this reasoning of humanity's survival being worth any price.
Valiantly fight on in the Emperors name unti I realised that my allies are dead, and I can't continue to fight on in His Glorious Name without others. So I'd ally with the Tau, as long as their greater good was akin to mine.
Iracundus wrote: I find it interesting that so often the Imperium's oppressive behavior and bigotry is justified by readers in the name of survival of the species, and that survival of humanity is worth any price. By that logic, humanity should immediately submit to Chaos or aliens if the Imperium is no longer a viable way of ensuring survival. Yet it is interesting that people then seem to be willing to choose the path of suicidal last stand despite this reasoning of humanity's survival being worth any price.
You don't seem to understand the viewpoint you're criticizing. The Emperor had to rebuild genetically pure humans during the unification because the terrible conditions on Terra had so badly mutated people. Human survival from the Imperial standpoint is inextricably equal to human purity and dominance. The creation of the Thunder Warriors and Space Marines as well as the reliance on psykers and augmentation are the ironic but necessary evils of this goal. Human survival from the so-called puritain monodomnant orthodox position is contradicted in a fundamental way by human submission to mutants, Chaos, or aliens. The Imperium is not arbitrarily bigoted against these groups; rather, the Emperor determined that the galactic dominance of authentic humans was the only meaningful way that humans could survive.
In other words, backflipping over what survival is, and setting additional conditions of trying to re-define what constitutes human. Human submission to xenos, Chaos, or whatever is still survival of the species.
I am not talking about in-universe points of view. I am talking about out of universe points of view, where the brutality and bigotry of the Imperium is brushed off as necessary evils for survival. However the existence of entire human societies under alien control (Tau being an example), or Chaos societies in the Eye of Terror show that there are more ways of survival than just the Imperium's way.
The hypothetical scenario in this thread is of the Emperor being dead and gone. If so that means the Imperium is not viable anymore, and neither is the Emperor's ideology. If survival of humanity is important, then there is no reason to hold fast to a discredited ideology and failed leader any longer. Alliance or submission to either Chaos or another power, such as an alien, are then the only logical responses if one wants humanity to survive. Ideological survival of a particular faction is not what is being discussed here, but the survival of humanity the species. Humanity may live a brutal life of anarchy under Chaos and enslavement to gods or to aliens, but it would survive, and arguably that is not that different to being oppressed and effectively enslaved by the Imperium. The masters just change.
So much of the Imperial ideology is pure propaganda and the Imperium's actions are hypocritical. The Inquisition goes on about doing whatever it takes, yet then balks at Kryptmann's initial bio-mass denial strategy of destroying worlds in the path of Leviathan. It just shows that when push comes to shove, there is a limit to what the Imperium and the Inquisition does.
I just see this parallel in readers and players that argue that any action is justifiable if it results in humanity's survival. Yet when it comes to actually sticking to this stance of survival being worth any action, suddenly all sorts of new excuses and rationales get thrown up if such actions suddenly involve siding with aliens or Chaos. Cognitive dissonance anyone? If some actions for survival are not acceptable, then the original stance of any action being justifiable for survival cannot hold true.
Humanity's survival is not enough - continued Human domination is also necessary. The latter cannot exist without the latter...and the former is meaningless if Mankind is subjugated by eldritch abominations from another realm or to creatures not of Mankind. Psykers, Navigators, and even Astartes may be freaks, but they're still Human for all that.
EDIT: Not to mention naturally-stable Human psykers represent the next step of natural Human evolution, so they're not really freaks in that light...the unstable Human psykers are just gakky prototypes, so to speak.
It seems to be taken as an axiom that humans must dominate and if not then be better off dead. But really, have we really looked at why that has to be? Is it just because of our own prejudices being human and arrogance that we cannot accept being not at the top?
Humanity was not dominant in the galaxy for the majority of humanity's history. The Eldar were the dominant species, yet humanity still survived, and actually so did many other sentient alien species in the galaxy.
Take the humans under Tau rule for example. The Tau may not be all bright and goodness, but the individual standard of living seems to be better than the work mills and ghetto slums of a hive city in the Imperium. It may be an unequal relationship, and may certainly run counter to modern ideas about equality, but given the alternative of extinction (such as by Tyranids), it would certainly seem a viable albeit sub-optimal arrangement.
Iracundus wrote: It seems to be taken as an axiom that humans must dominate and if not then be better off dead. But really, have we really looked at why that has to be? Is it just because of our own prejudices being human and arrogance that we cannot accept being not at the top?
Humanity was not dominant in the galaxy for the majority of humanity's history. The Eldar were the dominant species, yet humanity still survived, and actually so did many other sentient alien species in the galaxy.
Take the humans under Tau rule for example. The Tau may not be all bright and goodness, but the individual standard of living seems to be better than the work mills and ghetto slums of a hive city in the Imperium. It may be an unequal relationship, and may certainly run counter to modern ideas about equality, but given the alternative of extinction (such as by Tyranids), it would certainly seem a viable albeit sub-optimal arrangement.
There is more certainty in believing in yourself than than in others. By that reasoning, Human rule is more reliable and secure for Humans than xenos/Chaotic rule.
EDIT: It is Human nature to seek to dominate others, whether our fellow Humans or other species. And we do not need to suppress/reject/deny it - it is perfectly natural for Humans to act in such a manner. To do so is to become less than Human. For Humans to become more than Human, we must accept our nature and use it to benefit the species as a whole.
Iracundus wrote: It seems to be taken as an axiom that humans must dominate and if not then be better off dead. But really, have we really looked at why that has to be? Is it just because of our own prejudices being human and arrogance that we cannot accept being not at the top?
Humanity was not dominant in the galaxy for the majority of humanity's history. The Eldar were the dominant species, yet humanity still survived, and actually so did many other sentient alien species in the galaxy.
Take the humans under Tau rule for example. The Tau may not be all bright and goodness, but the individual standard of living seems to be better than the work mills and ghetto slums of a hive city in the Imperium. It may be an unequal relationship, and may certainly run counter to modern ideas about equality, but given the alternative of extinction (such as by Tyranids), it would certainly seem a viable albeit sub-optimal arrangement.
There is more certainty in believing in yourself than than in others. By that reasoning, Human rule is more reliable and secure for Humans than xenos/Chaotic rule.
EDIT: It is Human nature to seek to dominate others, whether our fellow Humans or other species. And we do not need to suppress/reject/deny it - it is perfectly natural for Humans to act in such a manner. To do so is to become less than Human. For Humans to become more than Human, we must accept our nature and use it to benefit the species as a whole.
That is a contentious statement to make. There are quite a few examples of minor powers in the world today that have no desire to dominate and appear happy to be left to their own devices and live their own way of life in their territory.
Movies like Avatar show it is quite possible for human movie-goers to empathize and support non-human protagonists and to be able to view humans as antagonists, or at least not having the best way of doing things. This shows that humans are not restricted to purely siding along species lines even today. So a claim that human audiences will always side with humans in fiction is false.
It is better to have a slice of the pie rather than trying to have it all and ending up with none.
Join the tau with out a question. if they expanded as rapidly as they have, in no time they will be the strongest in the galaxy if for no other reason than superior tech.
Anyone who thinks humans can peacefully and safely live with aliens in 40k has failed to grasp even the most basic principles of the setting.
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Iracundus wrote: It is better to have a slice of the pie rather than trying to have it all and ending up with none.
For humanity in 40k, there is no difference between having only a slice and having nothing. Either way, we would starve to death. Therefore, if we must starve, then let us leave the rest poisoned so that hideous Chaos and the filthy xenos choke on it.
I thought the great enemies were like Tyrnids or Necrons or something kind of tied with chaos.
Can I start working with some sort of cryptec and turn myself into a necron lord or something and claim to be working on a way to bring back flesh time?
Manchu wrote: Anyone who thinks humans can peacefully and safely live with aliens in 40k has failed to grasp even the most basic principles of the setting.
In that you are wrong. The theme of 40K is about intolerance and grimdark, but there are a few examples of peaceful co-existence (though not necessarily on equal terms) between humans and aliens. It shows the Imperium's way is not the only way. The examples off hand include the Interex and of course the human worlds that went over to the Tau as Gue'vesa. No humans are starving. In the case of the Interex, they appeared to be doing far better than the more unequal arrangement that the Tau have with other races that join them. The example of the suspected Sensei referenced in the 3rd edition rulebook and his human and alien followers also suggest co-existence is possible. What makes 40K grimdark is not that co-existence with some aliens is impossible, but that humans and aliens alike are on the whole too bigoted to do so even when their survival might depend upon alliance and mutual aid. To have a solution but fail due to refusal to use it due to stupidity, superstition, or bigotry is more grimdark than simply having no possibility in the first place.
No matter how much it offends the sensibilities of the 40K Imperial humans, the fact is co-existence with aliens is theoretically possible as shown by these above examples. It is only a matter of dogma that the Imperium claims it isn't. In fact, the Imperium itself is not consistent as it regularly violates its own supposedly hardline ideology. The existence of diplomatic relations with Eldar (i.e. Alaitoc prior to the Beelze Conflict) and the sending of diplomats to the Tau over the struggle for Nimbosa all show the Imperium is willing to play realpolitk with the alien despite its supposed ideological intolerance.
For humanity in 40k, there is no difference between having only a slice and having nothing. Either way, we would starve to death. Therefore, if we must starve, then let us leave the rest poisoned so that hideous Chaos and the filthy xenos choke on it.
Whenever a player or reader starts referring to a fictional faction with the term "we", it suggests they are having trouble separating themselves as outside observers to a fictional universe from an in-character viewpoint. Fact: no matter how much you might like a fictional faction, you are not a Space Marine/Ork/Imperial human.
Whenever a player or reader starts referring to a fictional faction with the term "we", it suggests they are having trouble separating themselves as outside observers to a fictional universe from an in-character viewpoint. Fact: no matter how much you might like a fictional faction, you are not a Space Marine/Ork/Imperial human.
Waaaaaiiiit - I'm not :-) ???Seriosly, there are few guys on this forum whos hate is so pathetic that I'm wondering if they can separate fiction from real life...and btw they should add this comment into forum rules...big +1 from me...
Before someone tries and cites how aliens attacked and oppressed humanity during the Age of Strife, how is that really different from all the historical examples of stronger human polities taking advantage of weaker ones? Yet there isn't a question of humans judged fundamentally unable to co-exist with other groups of humans. The 40K human attitude towards aliens and for that matter towards artificial intelligence really is a post-traumatic reaction. 40K humans are so scared of the past repeating itself that they would rather wipe out all other aliens in the galaxy, something arguably no race save the Necrons have ever tried. The mentality of 40K humans is comparable to that of the Ur-Quan race from the Star Control universe, and for the same reason it provokes fear, loathing, and resistance in others that have to face them.
Humans in 40K have a reputation in the galaxy for shooting first and have an ideology that explicitly talks about the genocide of all others. Is it any wonder then that aliens don't welcome them? Would you welcome somebody that supported ethnic cleansing of everyone other than themselves into your neighborhood? (assuming you do not fall into the same group as the ethnic cleanser)
Whenever a player or reader starts referring to a fictional faction with the term "we", it suggests they are having trouble separating themselves as outside observers to a fictional universe from an in-character viewpoint. Fact: no matter how much you might like a fictional faction, you are not a Space Marine/Ork/Imperial human.
Waaaaaiiiit - I'm not :-) ???Seriosly, there are few guys on this forum whos hate is so pathetic that I'm wondering if they can separate fiction from real life...and btw they should add this comment into forum rules...big +1 from me...
Gotta agree DarthMarko..the first person fanatic spouting can get kinda..out there. Makes me imagine some posters wearing commisar hats or marine helmets while they walk around their basements. while screaming at their minis.
Whenever a player or reader starts referring to a fictional faction with the term "we", it suggests they are having trouble separating themselves as outside observers to a fictional universe from an in-character viewpoint. Fact: no matter how much you might like a fictional faction, you are not a Space Marine/Ork/Imperial human.
Waaaaaiiiit - I'm not :-) ???Seriosly, there are few guys on this forum whos hate is so pathetic that I'm wondering if they can separate fiction from real life...and btw they should add this comment into forum rules...big +1 from me...
Gotta agree DarthMarko..the first person fanatic spouting can get kinda..out there. Makes me imagine some posters wearing commisar hats or marine helmets while they walk around their basements. while screaming at their minis.
So your asking if I would rather make a last stand for the Emperor, become some Dark God's plaything, a pawn of the Eldar, or be sterilized for for the Greater Good? Well good sir, I'd choose to die standing as a proud and loyal guardsmen.
Movies like Avatar show it is quite possible for human movie-goers to empathize and support non-human protagonists and to be able to view humans as antagonists, or at least not having the best way of doing things. This shows that humans are not restricted to purely siding along species lines even today. So a claim that human audiences will always side with humans in fiction is false.
I remember that film...I even got into an argument with my mother and sister, seeing as I was of the opinion the Humans should have used orbital nuclear bombardment after they lost the ground battle. Trust me, even before I came across 40k, I already had an anti-alien mindset (if only because fear and hatred of aliens would have served an excellent catalyst Humanity under a single banner).
Iracundus wrote: Before someone tries and cites how aliens attacked and oppressed humanity during the Age of Strife, how is that really different from all the historical examples of stronger human polities taking advantage of weaker ones? Yet there isn't a question of humans judged fundamentally unable to co-exist with other groups of humans. The 40K human attitude towards aliens and for that matter towards artificial intelligence really is a post-traumatic reaction. 40K humans are so scared of the past repeating itself that they would rather wipe out all other aliens in the galaxy, something arguably no race save the Necrons have ever tried. The mentality of 40K humans is comparable to that of the Ur-Quan race from the Star Control universe, and for the same reason it provokes fear, loathing, and resistance in others that have to face them.
Humans in 40K have a reputation in the galaxy for shooting first and have an ideology that explicitly talks about the genocide of all others. Is it any wonder then that aliens don't welcome them? Would you welcome somebody that supported ethnic cleansing of everyone other than themselves into your neighborhood? (assuming you do not fall into the same group as the ethnic cleanser)
Hmmm...and? Your point is? Humans should just forgive and forget the nightmarish events of the Old Night? How foolish...as if the Human race as a whole will just forgive five thousand years of oppression.
How childish...I wonder why do people automatically assume the universe is fair and just, when its the exact opposite? To the universe, we Humans are little more than dirt. It will shed no tears for us when we are gone, just as it shed no tears for those that came before, and those that will come after. Whether in 40k or IRL, reality is a reality of survival of the fittest. Humanity must remain strong, or we will be destroyed or worse.
Movies like Avatar show it is quite possible for human movie-goers to empathize and support non-human protagonists and to be able to view humans as antagonists, or at least not having the best way of doing things. This shows that humans are not restricted to purely siding along species lines even today. So a claim that human audiences will always side with humans in fiction is false.
I remember that film...I even got into an argument with my mother and sister, seeing as I was of the opinion the Humans should have used orbital nuclear bombardment after they lost the ground battle. Trust me, even before I came across 40k, I already had an anti-alien mindset (if only because fear and hatred of aliens would have served an excellent catalyst Humanity under a single banner).
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Iracundus wrote: Before someone tries and cites how aliens attacked and oppressed humanity during the Age of Strife, how is that really different from all the historical examples of stronger human polities taking advantage of weaker ones? Yet there isn't a question of humans judged fundamentally unable to co-exist with other groups of humans. The 40K human attitude towards aliens and for that matter towards artificial intelligence really is a post-traumatic reaction. 40K humans are so scared of the past repeating itself that they would rather wipe out all other aliens in the galaxy, something arguably no race save the Necrons have ever tried. The mentality of 40K humans is comparable to that of the Ur-Quan race from the Star Control universe, and for the same reason it provokes fear, loathing, and resistance in others that have to face them.
Humans in 40K have a reputation in the galaxy for shooting first and have an ideology that explicitly talks about the genocide of all others. Is it any wonder then that aliens don't welcome them? Would you welcome somebody that supported ethnic cleansing of everyone other than themselves into your neighborhood? (assuming you do not fall into the same group as the ethnic cleanser)
Hmmm...and? Your point is? Humans should just forgive and forget the nightmarish events of the Old Night? How foolish...as if the Human race as a whole will just forgive five thousand years of oppression.
@tadashi you are "XENOPHOBIC" .-) and a prime example of a space rasist...but in 40k that's cool
Humans being oppressed by aliens during the Age of Strife is no different from other periods of history when human states or empires were busy oppressing each other. One need only look at the blood spilled in all the European wars for the past two thousand years. England, France, Germany, and the older states that preceded these have all been drenching each other's countryside in blood for years. Yet that doesn't mean humans cannot get along with humans despite past bad blood. It is not all roses but peaceful cordial relations exist. The same goes for that period of alien domination. It is all politics. Not some fundamental inability to co-exist, at least for some aliens. Some aliens like the Tyranids and the Dark Eldar, yes it may be impossible to co-exist with. But certainly for many other minor alien species that have civilizations analogous to humans, some form of co-existence has been shown to be possible in 40K, such as the aforementioned example of the Interex. Also existent in the background is the use of alien mercenaries and even trade such as practiced by Rogue Traders. Just because you don't like co-existence doesn't mean it isn't possible.
The fact it happened shows it is not some impossibility, merely one that 40K humans, and apparently you as a real life human, refuse to countenance. Frankly I find that more disturbing since that kind of real life shoot first mentality is the kind we can precisely not afford in any sort of first contact situation. 40K humans doing so out of some post-traumatic reaction to first the Iron Men and the horrors of the Age of Strife is at least somewhat understandable if in a pitiable sort of fashion. Doing so out of some jingoistic manifest destiny and inability to comprehend or tolerate any difference is little different from what various groups have done on Earth in the past to justify their actions of conquest and genocide: demonize and objectify the outsider, thereby removing any guilt from any action done to them. For those people whose ancestors have been on the receiving end of such attitudes before, such a viewpoint is repugnant.
Iracundus wrote: . But certainly for many other minor alien species that have civilizations analogous to humans, some form of co-existence has been shown to be possible in 40K, such as the aforementioned example of the Interex. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't possible.
And what about the rest of Humanity? Most Human civilizations suffered under xenos during the Old Night. The good of the many supersedes the needs of the few.
Frankly I find that more disturbing since that kind of real life shoot first mentality is the kind we can precisely not afford in any sort of first contact situation.
Let them come...their arrival will lead to world unification and the biggest military build-up in Human history.
Iracundus wrote: Doing so out of some jingoistic manifest destiny and inability to comprehend or tolerate any difference is little different from what various groups have done on Earth in the past to justify their actions of conquest and genocide: demonize and objectify the outsider, thereby removing any guilt from any action done to them. For those people whose ancestors have been on the receiving end of such attitudes before, such a viewpoint is repugnant.
Don't let idealism blind you...how can one trust something that isn't Human? Disgusting...how can you even imagine understanding something that isn't Human? Or could it be, that you really think alien life IRL will look like Earth life? The probability for that is even less than the probability of alien life existing at all.
All those points stand but remember that we are talking about Humans and non- Humans here - not simply Humans and Humans.
And even if we are willing to be friendlier with our worst enemies after some time ( USA - USSR, USA - British Empire, British Empire - French Empire... ), I don't think that Orks, Eldar ( both ), Tyranids or Necrons will ever be considered friends or will ever be friendly to us as most see us as undeveloped, weak and inferior race.
For us Humans as a race the only thing we can do in 41'st millennium is stand together and fight for survival. Remember that this is not Star Trek where every race greet us with open hands - here every other race is trying to desstroy/enslave us - even Tau Empire.
More importantly people should realize that IRL aliens will look nothing like us or like life at all here on Earth. We cannot understand them. They cannot understand us. There is no choice...we must destroy them, or they will destroy us.
Tadashi wrote: More importantly people should realize that IRL aliens will look nothing like us or like life at all here on Earth. We cannot understand them. They cannot understand us. There is no choice...we must destroy them, or they will destroy us.
A very human response..since humans have said that about each other, over races, religions and even nationalities in our history.
Tadashi wrote: More importantly people should realize that IRL aliens will look nothing like us or like life at all here on Earth. We cannot understand them. They cannot understand us. There is no choice...we must destroy them, or they will destroy us.
A very human response..since humans have said that about each other, over races, religions and even nationalities in our history.
You expect to understand an exotic life-form that evolved on a world with completely different biospheres than ours and as such is in no way compatible to us...what a childish expectation. And my response is very Human...because I'm Human. Should I be anything else?
And your response is to just try and kill anything you dont at first understand...who's the child buddy, but I am aware why I cannot truly understand you..I never learned to speak fanatic.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: And your response is to just try and kill anything you dont at first understand...who's the child buddy, but I am aware why I cannot truly understand you..I never learned to speak fanatic.
If you think that you can understand Ork or Tyanid be my quest . Not every aliens are like those from Star Trek or Mass Effect.
40k is the ultimate dark universe when it comes to Humanity and aliens, so being highly xenophobic here is natural as being good and friendly with Vulcans in Star Trek.
Racist humans have been saying the same for every group using the same sort of rationale of "They're from so far away. They are nothing like us and cannot possible be compatible with us. There can be no understanding between us so we have to conquer/kill/civilize/enslave/whatever them."
The same was said of the Africans, Asians, the Irish. Ancient tribal people have been saying that of villages in the neighboring valley. It has ever been the tactic of racists to denigrate and objectify others, to cast them as too sub-human or alien to ever comprehend, or of having nothing worth comprehending. The differences that seemed so extreme and irreconcilable in the past have in so many instances proved surmountable. Modern nation-states are cobbled together from the union of old now defunct divisions between ethnicity, tribes, and "peoples".
Let them come...and in ten years, we'll be holding military parades and mass speeches across the world - all ending with nazi salutes and roars of:
SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE!
Consider yourself reported. If you think promoting some kind of sick twisted futuristic neo-Nazi future is somehow acceptable or even laudable....might I remind you that there are possibly many many people in this world, and maybe even this board, whose ancestors, family, or perhaps even individually would have been killed or enslaved for being sub-human in the Nazi's messed up race theory.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: And your response is to just try and kill anything you dont at first understand...who's the child buddy, but I am aware why I cannot truly understand you..I never learned to speak fanatic.
If you think that you can understand Ork or Tyanid be my quest . Not every aliens are like those from Star Trek or Mass Effect. 40k is the ultimate dark universe when it comes to Humanity and aliens, so being highly xenophobic here is natural as being good and friendly with Vulcans in Star Trek.
Not to mention scientifically speaking, IRL, it is virtually impossible for aliens to resemble Earth life. I'd sooner understand a cat than an alien - because the former comes from Earth.
Iracundus wrote: Racist humans have been saying the same for every group using the same sort of rationale of "They're from so far away. They are nothing like us and cannot possible be compatible with us. There can be no understanding between us so we have to conquer/kill/civilize/enslave/whatever them."
The same was said of the Africans, Asians, the Irish. Ancient tribal people have been saying that of villages in the neighboring valley. It has ever been the tactic of racists to denigrate and objectify others, to cast them as too sub-human or alien to ever comprehend, or of having nothing worth comprehending. The differences that seemed so extreme and irreconcilable in the past have in so many instances proved surmountable. Modern nation-states are cobbled together from the union of old now defunct divisions between ethnicity, tribes, and "peoples".
They're from Earth. There's a difference between them and aliens.
Let them come...and in ten years, we'll be holding military parades and mass speeches across the world - all ending with nazi salutes and roars of:
SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE!
Consider yourself reported. If you think promoting some kind of sick twisted futuristic neo-Nazi future is somehow acceptable or even laudable....might I remind you that there are possibly many many people in this world, and maybe even this board, whose ancestors, family, or perhaps even individually would have been killed or enslaved for being sub-human in the Nazi's messed up race theory.
Impressive sentiment...but a little late, seeing as I've since edited.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: And your response is to just try and kill anything you dont at first understand...who's the child buddy, but I am aware why I cannot truly understand you..I never learned to speak fanatic.
If you think that you can understand Ork or Tyanid be my quest . Not every aliens are like those from Star Trek or Mass Effect.
40k is the ultimate dark universe when it comes to Humanity and aliens, so being highly xenophobic here is natural as being good and friendly with Vulcans in Star Trek.
Did I say that anywhere..at all, some can be reasoned with some cannot, much like some of the posters here on dakka...some need to be killed and some can be allies, only the truest moron makes enemies where they do not need to.
and what the hell does star trek and mass effect have to do with this, the 40k imperium has had and will have opportunites to make friends, but likely dogma and xenophobia will take it down the same path.
but last time I checked it was not a Xeno that almost destroyed the Imperium, but its best and brightest.
In the final evaluation of the 40k setting ..is it was created to allow conflict between anyone at anytime, and to sell a universe at war..logic and rational thinking were never a part of the setting, its inherit in the grimdarkness, just I think to many people like to wallow in it a bit much.
Did I say that anywhere..at all, some can be reasoned with some cannot, much like some of the posters here on dakka...some need to be killed and some can be allies, only the truest moron makes enemies where they do not need to.
No but you are implying that a lot saying that Humans are too xenophobic in this setting, witch ( when we look closely at the setting itself ) is not strange at all.
and what the hell does star trek and mass effect have to do with this
I was just giving the example of other universes and how aliens there are more peaceful and understandable than the ones in 40k.
the 40k imperium has had and will have opportunities to make friends, but likely dogma and xenophobia will take it down the same path.
As far as I remember Eldar have alliance with Inquisition, Ordo Malleus to be precise. And even the Ordo Xenos Deathwatch, the deal is Eldar help Deathwatch i nfighting soem foes like Necrons or Orks and in return Deathwatch ave the Eldar any artifact related to them.
And the last I checked Imperium actually has treaty with the Tau Empire and Tau are trading with some Imperial worlds on their frontier.
Apperantly imperium can be friendly with aliens, but only Tau and Craftworld Eldar are exampel of this. Everyone else are burn, maim, kill, torture...
but last time I checked it was not a Xeno that almost destroyed the Imperium, but its best and brightest.
That happened to Eldar to But that happened because of Chaos influence so it was foreign intervention, Primarch themselves ( at least most of it ) were to loyal to the Emperor to rebel against him with their own will - even Horus.
In the final evaluation of the 40k setting ..is it was created to allow conflict between anyone at anytime, and to sell a universe at war..logic and rational thinking were never a part of the setting, its inherit in the grimdarkness, just I think to many people like to wallow in it a bit much.
So? Everyone fell Warhammer 40.000 in their own way, I personally see it as Mankind's darkest hour and time to get a gun and stand before the threat of annihilation. Someone fells it would be best if he was a daemon lord and slaughter entire worlds just for fun, someone see it as Tau and try to spread their Empire trough diplomacy and manipulation.
If you have problem with that than it's ok - that is your opinion. But don't attack other people for being into 40k setting to much for their are fans and they have the right to do it too ( even if that means that they shout "For the Emperor" every time they get on the street ).
Spoiler:
And people please don't bring Nazi Germany and their ideals into any 40k debate - it can only end up in tears.
Manchu wrote: Anyone who thinks humans can peacefully and safely live with aliens in 40k has failed to grasp even the most basic principles of the setting.
In that you are wrong. The theme of 40K is about intolerance and grimdark, but there are a few examples of peaceful co-existence (though not necessarily on equal terms) between humans and aliens.
Yes, those examples are used as a literary device, a contrast to the tragic necessity at the heart of the setting: "wouldn't it be nice if ... but no ..." It is a basic fact of the 40k universe that the most important virtues of the real world are unworkable.
Whenever a player or reader starts referring to a fictional faction with the term "we", it suggests they are having trouble separating themselves as outside observers to a fictional universe from an in-character viewpoint.
The irony here is painful. You are criticizing me for thinking about this fictional world on its own terms while you insist on applying real-world morals to the GrimDark. Here's a prime example:
Tadashi wrote: Let them come...and in ten years, we'll be holding military parades and mass speeches across the world - all ending with nazi salutes and roars of:
SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE!
Consider yourself reported. If you think promoting some kind of sick twisted futuristic neo-Nazi future is somehow acceptable or even laudable....might I remind you that there are possibly many many people in this world, and maybe even this board, whose ancestors, family, or perhaps even individually would have been killed or enslaved for being sub-human in the Nazi's messed up race theory.
Tadashi is not promoting IRL Nazism or genocide. He's making an accurate comparison between the 40k universe and its IRL inspiration -- a big, big part of which is racist fascism. The 40k world is a fascist's wet dream. IRL, fascists always holler about the Great Enemy and how anything is necessary to defeat it. In 40k, this is not a propagandistic lie. Chaos really exists. The xenos really exist. "What must be done" is nothing more than an authoritarian ploy IRL but in 40k it is the stark truth.
If you will kindly notice, the title of this thread is "Choose your Fate." The point is to take on the role of a human being in the 40k universe, assuming all the circumstances of the 40k universe. Please take your own advice and learn how to separate the facts from the fiction. There is no reason that people arguing from an authentic in-universe Imperial perspective should morally offend you otherwise. (Also, as a moderator, I can tell you it is not against any Dakka Dakka rules to, from an in-universe perspective, promote the genocide of fictional alien races.)
Manchu wrote: Tadashi is not promoting IRL Nazism or genocide. He's making an accurate comparison between the 40k universe and its IRL inspiration -- a big, big part of which is racist fascism. The 40k world is a fascist's wet dream. IRL, fascists always holler about the Great Enemy and how anything is necessary to defeat it. In 40k, this is not a propagandistic lie. Chaos really exists. The xenos really exist. "What must be done" is nothing more than an authoritarian ploy IRL but in 40k it is the stark truth.
It is disturbing that you so easily accept such transparent excuses and backpedaling for neo-Nazi ideology. It is quite apparent to me and one other poster who has also communicated in private that this whole "Zeon" thing is just a feeble attempt at trying to cover up for what was a blatant reference to Nazism.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: And your response is to just try and kill anything you dont at first understand...who's the child buddy, but I am aware why I cannot truly understand you..I never learned to speak fanatic.
If you think that you can understand Ork or Tyanid be my quest . Not every aliens are like those from Star Trek or Mass Effect.
40k is the ultimate dark universe when it comes to Humanity and aliens, so being highly xenophobic here is natural as being good and friendly with Vulcans in Star Trek.
Did I say that anywhere..at all, some can be reasoned with some cannot, much like some of the posters here on dakka...some need to be killed and some can be allies, only the truest moron makes enemies where they do not need to.
and what the hell does star trek and mass effect have to do with this, the 40k imperium has had and will have opportunites to make friends, but likely dogma and xenophobia will take it down the same path.
but last time I checked it was not a Xeno that almost destroyed the Imperium, but its best and brightest.
In the final evaluation of the 40k setting ..is it was created to allow conflict between anyone at anytime, and to sell a universe at war..logic and rational thinking were never a part of the setting, its inherit in the grimdarkness, just I think to many people like to wallow in it a bit much.
For an example of how the "suffer not the alien to live" doesn't really happen all the time, read Path of the Outcast
Iracundus wrote: just a feeble attempt at trying to cover up for what was a blatant reference to Nazism.
I guess you could say that 40k itself is just a feeble attempt to cover up blatant references to Nazism. It reminds me of those moms in the '80s who went on moral crusades to ban Dunegons & Dragons because they equated it with demon worship and said it made kids do evil things. Their minds had a great deal of trouble separating fact from fiction. You'll notice my avatar is of Judge Dredd, a totalitarian bullyboy if there ever was one. The reason I like Judge Dredd so much is not because I love totalitarians or want the world to be like Mega City One but rather because I think it's a over-the-top take on how horrible such societies really are. The same is true of 40k. Like I said, these racist fascists are lunatics and morons IRL. In 40k, however, the same types are objectively correct. And look at that universe: it's an endless warscape of inevitable misery. People who can argue about 40k from an in-universe perspective are not necessarily advocating IRL fascism any more than people playing D&D are worshiping Satan.
Iracundus wrote: just a feeble attempt at trying to cover up for what was a blatant reference to Nazism.
I guess you could say that 40k itself is just a feeble attempt to cover up blatant references to Nazism. It reminds me of those moms in the '80s who went on moral crusades to ban Dunegons & Dragons because they equated it with demon worship and said it made kids do evil things. Their minds had a great deal of trouble separating fact from fiction. You'll notice my avatar is of Judge Dredd, a totalitarian bullyboy if there ever was one. The reason I like Judge Dredd so much is not because I love totalitarians or want the world to be like Mega City One but rather because I think it's a over-the-top take on how horrible such societies really are. The same is true of 40k. Like I said, these racist fascists are lunatics and morons IRL. In 40k, however, the same types are objectively correct. And look at that universe: it's an endless warscape of inevitable misery. People who can argue about 40k from an in-universe perspective are not necessarily advocating IRL fascism any more than people playing D&D are worshiping Satan.
In case you haven't noticed, in the thread, the poster went from the 40K universe to espousing his own personal beliefs of how humans should be racist/speciest and how we should be giving futuristic nazi-salutes and a version of sieg heil:
Let them come...and in ten years, we'll be holding military parades and mass speeches across the world - all ending with nazi salutes and roars of:
SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE!
"We" in reference to Earth of some near future but not 40K. The discussion stopped being in-character the moment he started espousing what a good idea such things were, how the humans should have bombard the aliens in Avatar and how humanity should act towards any future aliens. That is not 40K in the slightest.
Iracundus wrote: The discussion stopped being in-character the moment he started espousing what a good idea such things were and how humanity should act towards any future aliens.
I get that this is your interpretation. I disagree. Tadashi seems to disagree. But even if it was the case, you don't get to make personal attacks on Dakka Dakka. Tadashi edited his post to this:
Frankly I find that more disturbing since that kind of real life shoot first mentality is the kind we can precisely not afford in any sort of first contact situation.
Let them come...their arrival will lead to world unification and the biggest military build-up in Human history.
I have no doubt that he's talking about some hypethetical sci-fi scenario beyond 40k. The point remains that it's a hypothetical sci-fi scenario and not a diatribe against real people.
Manchu wrote: Tadashi is not promoting IRL Nazism or genocide. He's making an accurate comparison between the 40k universe and its IRL inspiration -- a big, big part of which is racist fascism. The 40k world is a fascist's wet dream. IRL, fascists always holler about the Great Enemy and how anything is necessary to defeat it. In 40k, this is not a propagandistic lie. Chaos really exists. The xenos really exist. "What must be done" is nothing more than an authoritarian ploy IRL but in 40k it is the stark truth.
It is disturbing that you so easily accept such transparent excuses and backpedaling for neo-Nazi ideology. It is quite apparent to me and one other poster who has also communicated in private that this whole "Zeon" thing is just a feeble attempt at trying to cover up for what was a blatant reference to Nazism.
Let them come...their arrival will lead to world unification and the biggest military build-up in Human history.
I have no doubt that he's talking about some hypethetical sci-fi scenario beyond 40k. The point remains that it's a hypothetical sci-fi scenario and not a diatribe against real people.
Its not like the USA is just gonna sit by with a massive hole in their national defenses. And neither will the other superpowers. At the very least, they'll be accelerating development of next-generation infantry weapons and armor, FTL technology, energy weapons, space technology, etc. At most, a single, unified military-political-union established to protect and promote the continued strength and security of the Human race.
However, I think the main discussion shouldn't be about the Imperium's zero-tolerance policy for aliens, because the Imperium plain doesn't exist anymore; it should be about the choice in the thread poll. Iracundus brought up a good point about ideology; if you believe so heavily in an Imperium whose main motivation is to have human survive, it would be the action of a hypocrite not to ensure that survival after the Imperium's death. And yes, human survival in slavery is still human survival, or else you imply that slaves aren't human anymore.
1068SCP wrote: This thread has been rather... Illuminating.
However, I think the main discussion shouldn't be about the Imperium's zero-tolerance policy for aliens, because the Imperium plain doesn't exist anymore; it should be about the choice in the thread poll. Iracundus brought up a good point about ideology; if you believe so heavily in an Imperium whose main motivation is to have human survive, it would be the action of a hypocrite not to ensure that survival after the Imperium's death. And yes, human survival in slavery is still human survival, or else you imply that slaves aren't human anymore.
They aren't...they're already dead, tainted by the unclean. They just don't know it yet.
EDIT: There's no point in survival if Mankind is subjugated by foreign/non-human beings in the process.
1068SCP wrote: This thread has been rather... Illuminating.
However, I think the main discussion shouldn't be about the Imperium's zero-tolerance policy for aliens, because the Imperium plain doesn't exist anymore; it should be about the choice in the thread poll. Iracundus brought up a good point about ideology; if you believe so heavily in an Imperium whose main motivation is to have human survive, it would be the action of a hypocrite not to ensure that survival after the Imperium's death. And yes, human survival in slavery is still human survival, or else you imply that slaves aren't human anymore.
They aren't...they're already dead, tainted by the unclean. They just don't know it yet.
EDIT: There's no point in survival if Mankind is subjugated by foreign/non-human beings in the process.
Nonsense. Nothing lasts forever but as long as one is able to survive there is a chance to be free again. Still, the most likely outcome is that the various former imperial systems simply
reorganise themselfs and create a number of smaller realms, just as many other planets have done during and after the Age of Strife.
Manchu wrote: Tadashi is not promoting IRL Nazism or genocide. He's making an accurate comparison between the 40k universe and its IRL inspiration -- a big, big part of which is racist fascism. The 40k world is a fascist's wet dream. IRL, fascists always holler about the Great Enemy and how anything is necessary to defeat it. In 40k, this is not a propagandistic lie. Chaos really exists. The xenos really exist. "What must be done" is nothing more than an authoritarian ploy IRL but in 40k it is the stark truth.
It is disturbing that you so easily accept such transparent excuses and backpedaling for neo-Nazi ideology. It is quite apparent to me and one other poster who has also communicated in private that this whole "Zeon" thing is just a feeble attempt at trying to cover up for what was a blatant reference to Nazism.
Let them come...their arrival will lead to world unification and the biggest military build-up in Human history.
I have no doubt that he's talking about some hypethetical sci-fi scenario beyond 40k. The point remains that it's a hypothetical sci-fi scenario and not a diatribe against real people.
Its not like the USA is just gonna sit by with a massive hole in their national defenses. And neither will the other superpowers. At the very least, they'll be accelerating development of next-generation infantry weapons and armor, FTL technology, energy weapons, space technology, etc. At most, a single, unified military-political-union established to protect and promote the continued strength and security of the Human race.
In other words you were talking about real life. Which honestly I think was relatively clear from the beginning. I think people are getting a little too upset about this for a sci fi forum but let's call em as we see em shall we? Besides, this macho big talk doesn't fly in real life these days. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a gun myself but I have a lot of friends that served overseas that would just shake their heads at this bravado. But I repeat.a forum sci fi site. Nbd.
In other words you were talking about real life. Which honestly I think was relatively clear from the beginning. I think people are getting a little too upset about this for a sci fi forum but let's call em as we see em shall we? Besides, this macho big talk doesn't fly in real life these days. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a gun myself but I have a lot of friends that served overseas that would just shake their heads at this bravado. But I repeat.a forum sci fi site. Nbd.
Well, its not the soldiers' call to make - its the governments'. And governments (or rather politicians) tend to be a paranoid lot who want to be seen doing something that appeals to their constituents basic instincts/wants.
You know, now you mention it, I've always thought that the tau were really great guys and that we should have joined them from the beginning! It's just I didn't feel like saying it before.
Tadashi wrote: Don't let idealism blind you...how can one trust something that isn't Human? Disgusting...how can you even imagine understanding something that isn't Human? Or could it be, that you really think alien life IRL will look like Earth life? The probability for that is even less than the probability of alien life existing at all.
That's a lousy comparison. Homo sapiens are homo sapines, whether from pre-colonization North America or Europe. The sentiment behind that song has literally nothing to do with the subject to hand.
Manchu wrote: That's a lousy comparison. Homo sapiens are homo sapines, whether from pre-colonization North America or Europe. The sentiment behind that song has literally nothing to do with the subject to hand.
"They're different from us, which means they can't be trusted, we must sound the drums of war!"
The only difference between the subject matter of the video and the discussion in this thread is the song is "merely" about racism, the latter is about speciesism, and that, as I understand it, the only practical response to alien contact is arms build-up and war.
Because you don't understand it, seemingly. The point of the song is that people who treat other people like something less than people are bad.
Aliens are not people in 40k.
I was under the impression he was talking about hypothetical futuristic scenarios. If it's 40k we're talking, that makes my point fit even moreso, since we know humans can "comprehend" alien species like Eldar and Tau, that there exists alien species with similar emotions and ways of thinking, and if we can relate to them, then what really is the difference between humans and aliens?
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient. Even if empathy were not therefore presumptuous, it would still be misplaced. What basis do you have to believe the alien feels as you feel? Take that up with the Dark Eldar, for example. Save your empathy for your fellow human beings, where it is needed and matters.
As for "real life aliens," let's please keep in mind there is no such thing. Any sentient alien life form that we could possibly speak of is necessarily fictional. Also, this is a 40k Background Forum.
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient. Even if empathy were not therefore presumptuous, it would still be misplaced. What basis do you have to believe the alien feels as you feel? Take that up with the Dark Eldar, for example. Save your empathy for your fellow human beings, where it is needed and matters.
As for "real life aliens," let's please keep in mind there is no such thing. Any sentient alien life form that we could possibly speak of is necessarily fictional. Also, this is a 40k Background Forum.
It largely depends on the alien. Yes, there are a number of xenos in 40k that on almost all accounts, can't be dealt with, though even Orks and Dark Eldar apparently can work with Rogue Traders. Prejudice is but one path humanity has to take in 40k, the Interex meanwhile created a successful cultural bond with the Kinebrach that lasted for 3000 years until Horus arrived.
And, do you mean to say that you believe that not a single lifeform exists in this impossibly huge galaxy of ours, let alone in this incomprehensibly, large universe of ours exists outside of Earth?
And, do you mean to say that you believe that not a single lifeform exists in this impossibly huge galaxy of ours, let alone in this incomprehensibly, large universe of ours exists outside of Earth?
There is, but the probability they're like us or like life on Earth at all, much less something we can understand, is even less.
FinalAnswer wrote: the Interex meanwhile created a successful cultural bond with the Kinebrach that lasted for 3000 years until Horus arrived
The Interex/Kinbrach relationship is constantly brought up to "prove" this point but the fact is that we know basically nothing about either society much less the particulars of their alliance.
Think of it like this: the Emperor worked from rational principals rather than arbitrary ones. The type of hatred you're criticizing is entirely irrational. If the Emperor commanded the extermination of xenos then we won't go far wrong in assuming there is a good reason, from the viewpoint of humanity, to exterminate them. The question of the Interex therefore devolves to one of Horus's intentions on the one hand and Dan Abnett's goofy plot line on the other. I mean, Horus was in talks with the Interex after all.
as a space wolf, give the rest of the galaxy a big middle finger and stay in the fang on fenris, drinking Mead en feasting with my fellow vikings uh i mean space wolves
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient.
"We can't show empathy because it would be presumptious to humanize the recipient, but objectifying them so we can murder them with impunity is not imperialist."
Manchu wrote: Even if empathy were not therefore presumptuous, it would still be misplaced. What basis do you have to believe the alien feels as you feel? Take that up with the Dark Eldar, for example. Save your empathy for your fellow human beings, where it is needed and matters.
Apparently, people with emotional imbalances do not deserve our mercy.
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient.
"We can't show empathy because it would be presumptious to humanize the recipient, but objectifying them so we can murder them with impunity is not imperialist."
You cannot humanize something that wasn't Human to begin with.
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient.
"We can't show empathy because it would be presumptious to humanize the recipient, but objectifying them so we can murder them with impunity is not imperialist."
You cannot humanize something that wasn't Human to begin with.
You can humanize something that isn't human, just as you can objectify something that is. That's what the word is pretty much only used for. Neither is the correct response to a peaceful alien with capacity for rational thought and communication.
Do you think it would be immoral of an alien species to murder all humans because we are nothing but objects and obstacles to them, even when we try to be peaceful? I'd argue so.
Of course, morality doesn't matter in the Grimdark future of Warhammer 40,000. The rare peaceful and harmless intelligent alien is gone because of the Great Crusade and the ensuing Heresy. The closest things to potential allies are a bunch of manipulators who steer Ork Waaaghs into Imperial worlds and a tiny cadre of expansionists who don't take "no" for an answer.
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient.
"We can't show empathy because it would be presumptious to humanize the recipient, but objectifying them so we can murder them with impunity is not imperialist."
You cannot humanize something that wasn't Human to begin with.
You can humanize something that isn't human, just as you can objectify something that is. That's what the word is pretty much only used for. Neither is the correct response to a peaceful alien with capacity for rational thought and communication.
Do you think it would be immoral of an alien species to murder all humans because we are nothing but objects and obstacles to them, even when we try to be peaceful? I'd argue so.
Once again, you automatically assume aliens are close enough to Humans that we can understand them. But IRL, its all but impossible for alien life to even resemble Earth life. In such a situation, prudence would be a wise course of action - and prudence dictates a defensive stance.
No, as long as its a threat, we must take action to ensure the good of our species. Even at the cost of other species.
It was a rhetorical question.
Xenophiles insist on treating aliens as if they are human out of a misguided sense of inter-species respect when all it amounts to is anthropocentric chauvinism. The counter argument was that objectifying them in order to kill them is a worse form of chauvinism. That argument fails on two counts: First, I have no objection to anthropomorphic chauvinism regarding the 40k universe. It is clear to me that humanity must dominate the galaxy in order to survive in any meaningful way. The example of the kinbrach proves nothing given we know nothing about the particulars of their relationship to the Interex. Telling me my that my human-supremacist position is more distasteful to you than your own thoughtless anthropocentric assumptions means nothing to me. Second, treating a person as an object is inappropriate. Personhood, however, is a human concept. Humans are the only beings in 40k that can properly be called persons by humans. But even if the xenos could be called persons, objectifying them would not be necessary to kill them.
In 40k, xenophobia is fully-justified considering the the way Humans suffered in general during the Old Night. IRL, I might be willing to coexist if they're peaceful (unlikely, seeing as real life aliens would be all but impossible to even understand), but don't expect me to just open my arms in welcome and unconditional trust. I'd certainly use them as an excuse for accelerated technological development and military build-up. At the end of the day, we all have an obligation to put our species ahead of others, and anything less would be blood treason.
My point is, this is a 40k background discussion so there's no need to get into "IRL" scenarios. That is clouding the discussion. Whatever aliens might be like in the real world, let's not confuse Eldrad with Spock or Far sight with ET.
Most aliens in 40k are unusual in the sense that they appear very similar to Humans or to Earth life, which should be impossible. But even if they can be understood by Humans, they are hostile and a threat, and so co-existence is not an option. In the case of the Tau, co-existence is not possible not because of antipathy to Humans, but rather, out of political reasons.
...http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/485641/4924814.page
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