So, I've hit a slump with my guard army recently. Spoiler alert for those who follow my battle reports.

The problem has basically been with tough units. I played a game recently against a person who brought literally the least they could spend in a guard codex (a lord commissar and two naked vet squads) so that in 1500 points he could fit in 4 melta/las punishers (one with pask), and two vendettas. I played a game against a nurgle foot horde where I didn't have enough melta and las to handle the sheer number of them, and my small stuff (in my case, lasguns, but it could easily be chimera weapons) struggled to get wounds. Eventually a demon prince showed up and basically single-handedly killed my army. I also played a similar game where a bunch of shunting grey knights ruined everything with a squad of interceptors, a dreadknight, and a small draigowing. Probably the hardest list I've been facing is a necron army with 3 fliers, 2 command barges with scythes, and then arks and annihilation barges. I get to pick between trying to swat down fliers, or trying to break open HP4/5 AV13 spam, with it being night fighting for half the game. I've also been struggling with a BA player that starts the list building phase with 3 AV13 vehicles and adds shield of sanguinius.

To put it another way, my best opponents have been moving up to really difficult to kill units, and I'm having a really hard time coping. In an attempt to handle the monstrous creature problem, I threw a couple of my own las/melta punishers in a list played at a local tournament, and it handled that class pretty well, being able to beat up on terminators and a dreadknight, but that same list lost 2/3ds of my points in a single round against the necron list when fliers blew up both of the tanks and a PCS, and a lord managed to make it into close combat with my goobers and the annihilation barges killed a lot else.

As such, players who are bringing AV13/14 spam with the occasional other tough things like MCs are starting to just run over my FLGS. The only real exception is a veteran BA player who brings crazy lists, but always gets the right luck when he needs it. I've been going around and around in my head, and haven't been able to figure things out. I can't just bring plasma, because, while it will help against the monstrous creatures, it won't do much other than kill my own guys against fliers, and will do nothing against heavy vehicles. I can't just bring lascannons/melta because I can't spam lascannons as well as my opponents can spam vehicles without HWSs, which will just fly off the board, and they're only SO good against MCs and fliers. I can't just go anti-flier, because those weapons don't do anything to anything else.

If it winds up that literally the only answer is vendettas then I'm going to quit guard until we get a new codex, as being forced to take a single unit in the codex to have any chance of winning sounds like the kind of game I don't want to play. Otherwise, the only things I've gotten much use out of are melta stormies and lascannon sentinels, as they don't need to cross open ground to get into range, but both of those units are pretty hit or miss...

So without needing to take vendettas, or without needing to take allies, with just legal guard units, how do you take down this kind of heavy stuff? I've always been a big believer in boys over toys, but the fact that I'm getting beaten up by armies that either literally or virtually min/max troops so they can get more toys is really depressing to me.

You have a chance to win w/o Vendettas, as dice are fickle.

However running them will improve your chances lol

I'm not sure why you're so stubborn about not using the most effective "tough unit" killer in the IG codex, but if you want to figure it out without Vendettas you first need to break it up into the various different unit types you're having trouble with. The answer to AV 14 spam is a lot different from the answer to flyer spam, and obviously that's completely different from dealing with a tough horde unit.

The other unfortunate part is that the answer is probably going to involve abandoning your traditional "foot with lots of troops" list in favor of mech vets and overwhelming heavy/fast choices.

Peregrine wrote:I'm not sure why you're so stubborn about not using the most effective "tough unit" killer in the IG codex, but if you want to figure it out without Vendettas you first need to break it up into the various different unit types you're having trouble with. The answer to AV 14 spam is a lot different from the answer to flyer spam, and obviously that's completely different from dealing with a tough horde unit.

40k to me loses its depth to the point of being uninteresting when you don't have options. If I wanted to play a game where I have the illusion of choice with few serious options, I'd go back to playing M:TG.

And part of the problem is, in fact, that there are a few different things. You can't take down vendettas with the same things you take down 5HP AV13 scythe barges, and you're not going to take down mephiston with the same things you take out AV14 spam with, or flier spam. The problem, of course, is that I don't feel like I can take a little bit of each as if my opponent spams any one of those things they're going to quickly overload my ability to handle anything at all, while at least melta/lascannon spam on my part sort of covers a bunch of this.

 Ailaros wrote:

If it winds up that literally the only answer is vendettas then I'm going to quit guard until we get a new codex, as being forced to take a single unit in the codex to have any chance of winning sounds like the kind of game I don't want to play.

Few points:

-How do you justify the use of the CCS? Considered by most to be a must-take in the guard codex.

-Why do you refuse allies? I understand it's "out of principle" but it doesn't make much sense.

-I take it you're still adverse to ForgeWorld stuff?


See, the trouble really isn't the guard codex, or the options at hands; moreso its the unnecessary handicaps you've placed on yourself.

-The Captain

I like the CCS, because he's always been my narrator. I don't think that unit is necessary.

As for allies, then I'm not running a guard army any more. I'm running a necron-and-guard army, or a grey-knights-and-guard army. I want to use things from the guard codex because I want to be a guard player. As for forgeworld, when I see in the rulebook where it says they're allowed, I'll consider it.

I suppose you could say it's handicapping, but I don't think this is the most egregious thing here. Can guard handle these things without a vendetta? Answers that have to go out of scope aren't interesting to me here.

 Ailaros wrote:
I want to use things from the guard codex because I want to be a guard player. As for forgeworld, when I see in the rulebook where it says they're allowed, I'll consider it.

GW's official stamp of approval for on new FW rulebooks isn't enough? Because this logic would lend itself to ruling out white-dwarf updates/army lists as well.

As for allies, then I'm not running a guard army any more. I'm running a necron-and-guard army, or a grey-knights-and-guard army.

Taking a rune priest and 5 Grey Hunters would really ruin the experience for you, huh?

I like the CCS, because he's always been my narrator. I don't think that unit is necessary.

Maybe you need a narrator in a vendetta?

I am with you on the Vendettas, I am not going near them.

I have a feeling you are not a big fan, but I think you should have a play with some allies sometime. Either Space Marines or Sisters of battle are great options, I have recently jumped to get some sisters to use Jacobus and a pair of Exorcists. I think he is a bit over priced but Khan would also give you an awesome blob along with outflanking marines.

Have you even tried blobs in 6th? I think they still have a place, even if it is a single combat blob backed up with lots of firepower.

Speaking of firepower, I have also been very impressed with my Lascannon heavy weapons squads in the last few games as they seem tougher than ever behind a defence line and get back in the fight seems like it was just made for them.

That said Imperial Guard are such a different beast now and it looks like you play in a very competitive area. Keep trying stuff out, there has to be a solution that gives you the army you want to play.

I personally think you're dealing with two different threats here. Some of the more veteran players might disagree, but IMHO the flyers and the tough ground units can be viewed as 2 separate issues, and I would break them down as such.

Fliers: You're fighting 3 fliers in this case, and as of yet there is no widespread skyfire except for fliers and aegis lines (or you could take a hydra). If you want to take them out reliably, a vendetta would be a very good choice, and really the only one that doesn't involve you staking your heavy weapons on a 1/6th chance to hit their target. An aegis line might help you as well, the walls will help your guardsmen survive (4+ cover) and the very anti-flyer turrets could definitely thin the Necron air out. Plus, the turrets are more heavy weapons for you, because both options (as well as the vendetta) can shoot at ground units too.

Tough units: I don't know what your current list looks like, but as the Imperial Guard you have some pretty solid tank options yourself. If you want a foot soldiers theme, look at weapons teams or try some different tactics with your storm troopers or veterans. Be smart about your shooting too; take a hard look at the probabilities when you make your list and have realistic expectations of what each unit can kill. Think about how the game will play out...meltas are cheaper but lascannons can take it out before it does more shooting, etc.

I'd say just start by looking over your list and thinking about what each unit does, and replace what doesn't work with stuff that can get a job done. Keep an open mind too; make sure the question you're asking isn't "How can I kill tanks with my lasguns?" You'll have to add some anti-armor, what kind is up to you but you have quite a few options in your codex.

2x plasma guns and a plasma pistol stormtrooper squad does wonderful. Deepstrike it behind a vehicle (reroll scatter) and unload on it, probably blowing it up. If you need to kill a tough critter, 5 plasma shots work quite well.

If you want allies, SW wolf priest works wonders with plasma. PE means plasma rarely overheats and you rarely fail to wound too. Great for plasma in a blobs.

You can also run special weapons squads with grenade launchers and a det pack to deal with most threats while being a minimal target. I use it as a fun unit to stick into chimeras as it adds a good deal of fire support while being of minimal value once the transport is destroyed.

most of guard's way to deal with things like DP is quantity of fire. first rank fire at 24 or bring it down within 12 and you should be putting out enough shots from a 30 man blob squad do take out almost anything (i run my blobs plas/autocannon).
VS dp you are doing 2 wounds with las guns, 2.5 with plasma, and 1.5 with autocannons, meaning hes dead in 1 round.

Now if you are having problems with terminators or 2+ armor critters, plasma cannon russes are great (obviously not on the ord ones)

Seriously, these.

The answer to your problems 100%, and all that is required is to accept that GW supports their use in regular 40k now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zephoid wrote:

If you want allies, SW wolf priest works wonders with plasma. PE means plasma rarely overheats and you rarely fail to wound too. Great for plasma in a blobs.

Rune priests are better in literally every way.

The problem is that you're ruling out the best options you have available, and then complaining that once you've ruled out all the options you have no options left.

The Vendetta's whole purpose is to be anti-tank and (in 6th) AA. It's amazing at those two roles, and exactly the kind of powerful dual-role unit that you need when you're up against a wide variety of spam lists. There just isn't anything else in the codex that can handle both AA and anti-tank effectively, so refusing to take Vendettas means you need two units to do the job of one, and that probably isn't enough to handle both spam lists.

Forge World rules are, like it or not, part of standard 40k. You can personally choose to impose a limit on yourself and not use them, but it means throwing away units like Sabre guns and Vulture gunships. Sabre guns (with lascannons) give you spammable anti-tank, but with skyfire AND interceptor to make flyer lists cry, which gives you the same kind of dual-role unit that the Vendetta offers. Meanwhile the Vulture with punisher canons can deal with all but AV 12 flyers through sheer volume of fire, hurt Rhinos/Chimeras/etc with vector dancer to ensure you hit side armor, and make horde armies cry. Then you have to consider things like heavy mortars (cheap pseudo-Griffons in the elite slot), which give you cheap and efficient anti-infantry firepower and allow you to focus your remaining resources on anti-tank and AA.

Finally, you criticize the "minimum troops, maximum tanks" approach to list building, but that's a fundamental strategic problem for you. If your opponents can win objective games through firepower alone with only token troops you don't really have much of a chance if you're spending tons of points on conscript blobs and similar low-firepower scoring units. Even infantry squads with LCs and melta can't match the firepower of melta vets/Vendettas/Medusas/etc, so you're putting yourself at a disadvantage in a firepower vs. firepower fight. This gives you only two choices:

1) Focus even more on infantry hordes, bring so many bodies that tank/flyer spam lists can't even hope to kill them all, and camp your "home" objectives. It's boring (you'll just pull models off until the game ends and then hopefully win on objectives), it's likely to force you to play for a draw, and it sucks if you have an odd number of objectives and your opponent gets to place first, but if you can't hold objectives as it is then it's your only hope to win with foot hordes.

2) Give up the foot army and play mech vets. Veterans givesyou efficient firepower, transports protect and deliver it, tanks everywhere gives you target saturation of your own, and the lower cost of 2-3 veteran squads enables you to stop spending points on low-firepower scoring units and throw them all into bringing more fast/heavy units.

Okay, because people have seemed to miss this, let me say it again. If your answer to "can guard handle this problem?" is "no, you need forgeworld, allies, or vendettas", you can feel free to shorten your answer to "no". While you're there, don't bother posting at all.

As for guard tanks, they do have some nice durability, but they don't have the required weapon kit. None of the russes (save perhaps the punisher) are good against fliers, but fliers are also good against the punisher (well, enough of them). Likewise, except perhaps the punisher, none of them are good at volume of fire, and none, at all, are good against AV13+ spam. If I'm facing off against a russ+vendetta list, or a barge spam+doom scythe list, I can't see any russes doing very well.

As for HWSs, they just get killed really, really fast. It doesn't matter if they have good firepower if they can't stick around to use it. As for blobs, I haven't bothered because blobs are mostly dead. That said, spamming PISs with meltaguns and lascannons is the closest I've come to solving this problem. The only issue with it is that it's a rather inefficient way to get these kinds of guns.

As for an aegis, I tried it and wasn't impressed. Fliers shoot over aegises, and a single interceptor+skyfire weapon isn't doing much to them. I am starting to get somewhat tempted by it again, but that's only because I've been playing with stupid small amounts of terrain recently (and at tournaments, which never have anywhere close to enough).

I've been doing stormies a lot in 6th ed, but always with flamers or melta. I suppose I could give plasma stormies a try. It's kind of sad that my luck is so terrible with plasma weapons, though (and no, I'm not just saying that). I guess the biggest problem I've been having with my stormtroopers is that they are SO hit or miss. They land dead on and beat face, or they scatter and kill themselves with a mishap or roll snakeyes to pen with meltaguns and do absolutely nothing. At least for me, it seems like there is no middle ground whatsoever. I guess I have a bit of a hard time seeing how plasma stormies would fix this.

As for other things I've been thinking about, it just struck me that for fliers at least there is the option of a techpriest with multimelta servitors. A squad of 5 would be rather easy to hide, and if you're snap firing anyways, the fact that you need to move them wouldn't matter. With BiD, you're pretty likely to get a hit in melta range against any flier. Doesn't work against a WHOLE lot else, though...

And that's sort of the problem.

Ok, no vendettas. How about bare-bone valks with SWSs inside? It gives you at least some form of anti-air and another unit with meltaguns and even a demo charge you can grav chute in for cheap and see what it can do. Combined with the stormies it might provide for some extra back field punch.

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, because people have seemed to miss this, let me say it again. If your answer to "can guard handle this problem?" is "no, you need forgeworld, allies, or vendettas", you can feel free to shorten your answer to "no". While you're there, don't bother posting at all.

Then just throw your IG in the trash. You aren't going to solve the problem by arbitrarily ruling out all of the options and then complaining that you don't have any options left.

I suppose my only reluctance with this is that in order to put part of an infantry platoon in reserve, I have to put all of an infantry platoon in reserve. Not the biggest problem (especially if I have, say, al'rahem), but still...

It would be nice to have stuff running into the backfield, but I think before I'd all that seriously consider a 3x melta SWS in a vendetta, I'd probably go for a 3x melta vet squad in chimeras first. The new vehicle rules means an 18" highland charge turn 1...

 TheCaptain wrote:

Rune priests are better in literally every way.

Wolf Priests dont have to deal with psychic tests (every 3rd or 4th army brings eldar allies), give fearless to the blob and stealth with saga of the hunter. No, wolf priests are far better

zephoid wrote:
Wolf Priests dont have to deal with psychic tests (every 3rd or 4th army brings eldar allies), give fearless to the blob and stealth with saga of the hunter. No, wolf priests are far better

You don't just take rune priests for their psychic powers, you take them for psychic defense (which they are amazing at). Area psychic defense is far more useful than giving some special bonuses to a single squad that the HQ has to join.

zephoid wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

Rune priests are better in literally every way.

Wolf Priests dont have to deal with psychic tests (every 3rd or 4th army brings eldar allies), give fearless to the blob and stealth with saga of the hunter. No, wolf priests are far better

ATSKNF is better for guard blobs.

zephoid wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

Rune priests are better in literally every way.

Wolf Priests dont have to deal with psychic tests (every 3rd or 4th army brings eldar allies), give fearless to the blob and stealth with saga of the hunter. No, wolf priests are far better

eh, um, no they're really not.

I'd rather give the Blob ATSKNF over Fearless.

Oh you got assaulted by something atrocious and painstakingly dreadful, enjoy Mr Fearless mob.

4+ 24" No Stick for Psy Defense. Access to Divinination, one that IG can't get w/o Allies IIRC.

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, because people have seemed to miss this, let me say it again. If your answer to "can guard handle this problem?" is "no, you need forgeworld, allies, or vendettas"

But FW, allies, and vendettas as an answer wouldn't be "no, you need..."

it would be "yes, with..."

because they are all legal, viable resources for guard.

I get that you harbor reluctance to these avenues of adaptation, but that's not the issue of confusion. The confusion is that it doesn't make sense.

You're lighting yourself on fire and saying "no fire extinguishers" by playing games against opponents that don't follow your same handicaps while you adhere to them.

I mean other than having fliers, it seems like your best bet to fight fliers within the codex is a unit of three hydras with camo netting, behind and aegis. Throw in a Manticore or basilisk squad and hopefully you can at least deal with heavier armor. If not by killing them out right, then by chewing off hull points. It's expensive, but would work I would think.

You can take Valkyries with a Lascannon and Missiles.

Does that fit your criteria?

All things considered, it's not exactly a bad option.

This is not a discussion about which SW HQ choice is the best, people.

So, another random thing to throw out there is basilisk spam. I'm talking like 5 or 6 at 1500 points. It doesn't hurt fliers, but it does cause penetrating hits on necron vehicles, which would make them easy targets for lascannon spam (plus, they're open topped, so a decent chance to explode). Meanwhile, it wouldn't be great against most monstrous creatures, but it would be decent against a few of them. As for heavy vehicles, it would be hitting on side armor, and while I'm not a big fan of killing vehicles by stripping HP, when we're talking about S9 ordnance spam, it might just be doable.

Plus, it stops those annoying plague marines and FNP blood angels cold.

TheCaptain wrote:All things considered, it's not exactly a bad option.

Why not?

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:All things considered, it's not exactly a bad option.

Why not?

The Valk with Lascannon and Missiles?

I mean, it's a flyer with skyfire S8AP3 Ordinance missiles.

And a Lascannon. For 115 points. Point for point, ruling out the better options that you desire to, it's your best AA platform.

 TheCaptain wrote:
I mean, it's a flyer with skyfire S8AP3 Ordinance missiles.

Ordnance being the key point. So each turn you can only fire one BS 3 missile and a snap fire LC, unless you want to waste your second (and only other) missile shot on another snap shot. IOW, a high chance to do absolutely nothing each turn, flyer rules and single-shot weapons that limit the number of turns it gets to fire, and a weapon that isn't all that impressive even when it does hit. And all for only 15 points less than a Vendetta. If that's the best remaining option for AA, it's time to just give up IG.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, another random thing to throw out there is basilisk spam.

Not really a good option when you're playing foot hordes. You don't have the target saturation to keep AV 12 open-topped tanks alive, so they're going to die fast. If you want to spam Basilisks you're probably going to have to combine it with turning all of your troops into veteran squads, and then cutting out half of them in favor of more tanks.

Plus, it stops those annoying plague marines and FNP blood angels cold.

FNP BA, sure, but not plague marines since they're T5. You deny the armor save, but you still allow FNP and possibly a cover save. As much as I dislike the Colossus even it is better than a Basilisk for dealing with plague marines.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
I mean, it's a flyer with skyfire S8AP3 Ordinance missiles.

Ordnance being the key point. So each turn you can only fire one BS 3 missile and a snap fire LC, unless you want to waste your second (and only other) missile shot on another snap shot. IOW, a high chance to do absolutely nothing each turn, flyer rules and single-shot weapons that limit the number of turns it gets to fire, and a weapon that isn't all that impressive even when it does hit. And all for only 15 points less than a Vendetta. If that's the best remaining option for AA, it's time to just give up IG.

I mean, vouched for Vendettas, Sabres, and Allies already.

Why not give the least used option in the entire codex some love? Under such strict parameters, it's probably legitimately the best choice.

But they're ordnance, which makes everything else snap fire. Plus, this has some decent anti-flier (though I don't know if it's necessarily the best outside of the vendetta), but it doesn't seem to handle non-fliers very well.

 Ailaros wrote:

If it winds up that literally the only answer is vendettas then I'm going to quit guard

Er, you could rationally adapt to the changes 6th has brought instead?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, because people have seemed to miss this, let me say it again. If your answer to "can guard handle this problem?" is "no, you need forgeworld, allies, or vendettas"

But FW, allies, and vendettas as an answer wouldn't be "no, you need..."

it would be "yes, with..."

because they are all legal, viable resources for guard.

I get that you harbor reluctance to these avenues of adaptation, but that's not the issue of confusion. The confusion is that it doesn't make sense.

You're lighting yourself on fire and saying "no fire extinguishers" by playing games against opponents that don't follow your same handicaps while you adhere to them.

And if your opponent won't play if you use Forgeworld?

As much as that official 40k stamp helps, its no good if your local gaming group just won't play you if you bring those units. I can argue all I want, but if they refuse to play I am out of luck.
A lot of tournaments still don't let people take Forgeworld, which is another problem.

Vendettas, unless you have a ton of extra lascannons lying around (which I don't) or are an excellent scratch builder, are $91 a pop. Hardly an affordable option.

I do fully embrace allies, but I can see why Ailaros might not be able to take Forgeworld or Vendettas.

 Ailaros wrote:
But they're ordnance, which makes everything else snap fire. Plus, this has some decent anti-flier (though I don't know if it's necessarily the best outside of the vendetta), but it doesn't seem to handle non-fliers very well.

S8 Ordinance isn't exactly bad against transports and stuff.

As you can tell, it's not good. But it's the best you can take. More survivable than hydras/HWSs, can transport stuff, and is more mobile than anything else, more easily allowing rear armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happygrunt wrote:


And if your opponent won't play if you use Forgeworld?

As much as that official 40k stamp helps, its no good if your local gaming group just won't play you if you bring those units. I can argue all I want, but if they refuse to play I am out of luck.
A lot of tournaments still don't let people take Forgeworld, which is another problem.

Vendettas, unless you have a ton of extra lascannons lying around (which I don't) or are an excellent scratch builder, are $91 a pop. Hardly an affordable option.

I do fully embrace allies, but I can see why Ailaros might not be able to take Forgeworld or Vendettas.

I try not to let irrational, disillusioned LGS players rule my listbuilding.

People complain too much that "Oh, players at my LGS don't use FW, so I won't."

Take the initiative and start a change. Someone has to.

 Happygrunt wrote:
And if your opponent won't play if you use Forgeworld?

Then you make a house rule of your own and tell them they're not allowed to play the spam lists that give you trouble. If they refuse, don't play against them. It's massive hypocrisy to insist on being allowed to bring any spam list you like but refuse to allow official rules that you don't like that might allow your opponents to stand a chance against you.

(Of course I prefer a simpler approach. My army contains FW units. I do not change it. If you don't like it, I don't play against you.)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
And if your opponent won't play if you use Forgeworld?

Then you make a house rule of your own and tell them they're not allowed to play the spam lists that give you trouble. If they refuse, don't play against them. It's massive hypocrisy to insist on being allowed to bring any spam list you like but refuse to allow official rules that you don't like that might allow your opponents to stand a chance against you.

(Of course I prefer a simpler approach. My army contains FW units. I do not change it. If you don't like it, I don't play against you.)

Not allowing FW isn't exactly a houserule. It's more RAW from the BGB than allowing them.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Why not give the least used option in the entire codex some love? Under such strict parameters, it's probably legitimately the best choice.

Yeah, but if it's legitimately the best choice then the outcome is inevitable. The Valkyrie won't get the job done, and he'll just come to the conclusion that the situation is hopeless and it's time to pick a new army. He might as well save the cash and not bother buying the Valkyrie models.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
And if your opponent won't play if you use Forgeworld?

Then you make a house rule of your own and tell them they're not allowed to play the spam lists that give you trouble. If they refuse, don't play against them. It's massive hypocrisy to insist on being allowed to bring any spam list you like but refuse to allow official rules that you don't like that might allow your opponents to stand a chance against you.

(Of course I prefer a simpler approach. My army contains FW units. I do not change it. If you don't like it, I don't play against you.)

Pretty much this.

Think about it. If the guy is ready to refuse a game against you because you use a few FW units;

A. He doesn't exactly sound like a sporting opponent I'd be interested in playing

B. Then by the same logic you can refuse a game if he doesn't let you do so. Clearly he/she is ready to give up the opportunity to play, so call their bluff. They'll either cave in, or lose an opponent.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Not allowing FW isn't exactly a houserule. It's more RAW from the BGB than allowing them.

No it isn't. GW has explicitly said that FW is part of 40k. End of discussion.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Not allowing FW isn't exactly a houserule. It's more RAW from the BGB than allowing them.

False.

 TheCaptain wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Not allowing FW isn't exactly a houserule. It's more RAW from the BGB than allowing them.

False.

Show me in the 40k rulebook than. I won't hold my breath

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Not allowing FW isn't exactly a houserule. It's more RAW from the BGB than allowing them.

False.

Show me in the 40k rulebook than. I won't hold my breath

The statement is in every recent Imperial Armour book, which are official GW products. The fact that the paper copy of the core rulebook doesn't include it is meaningless, unless you refuse to play with any of the FAQs or errata that GW has published, which also aren't contained in the paper copy of the core rulebook.

Hmm, so if any product that says its 40k official is 40k official, that means it's official?

Excuse me, I'm going to go write a fandex now and claim my own rules are legal...

In any case, this is all grossly beside the point.

 Peregrine wrote:


The statement is in every recent Imperial Armour book, which are official GW products. The fact that the paper copy of the core rulebook doesn't include it is meaningless, unless you refuse to play with any of the FAQs or errata that GW has published, which also aren't contained in the paper copy of the core rulebook.

Standard response to this usually consists of:

>Nuh uh! [proceeds to cite outdated permission-urgings from old books]

>Well it's still not in the rule book [thereby reverting to a lack of logic in defense]

>Well my gamestore players still don't like it [Which is your own fault for not encouraging and introducing it well]

 Peregrine wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Not allowing FW isn't exactly a houserule. It's more RAW from the BGB than allowing them.

False.

Show me in the 40k rulebook than. I won't hold my breath

The statement is in every recent Imperial Armour book, which are official GW products. The fact that the paper copy of the core rulebook doesn't include it is meaningless, unless you refuse to play with any of the FAQs or errata that GW has published, which also aren't contained in the paper copy of the core rulebook.

Actually the BGB directly says to use the Codexes. It says nothing about IA books. Using a supplement that is not even mentioned by the main rules is questionable at best.

 Ailaros wrote:
Hmm, so if any product that says its 40k official is 40k official, that means it's official?

Excuse me, I'm going to go write a fandex now and claim my own rules are legal...

In any case, this is all grossly beside the point.

If GW themselves release it and say so, then yeah. Yeah it is.

Something like this

1) Focus even more on infantry hordes, bring so many bodies that tank/flyer spam lists can't even hope to kill them all, and camp your "home" objectives. It's boring (you'll just pull models off until the game ends and then hopefully win on objectives), it's likely to force you to play for a draw, and it sucks if you have an odd number of objectives and your opponent gets to place first, but if you can't hold objectives as it is then it's your only hope to win with foot hordes.

You should un-think a lot of what changed your list when 6th came out. Go back to your roots.

Get commissars back in your list. Get an Aegis. Get more boots and more guns.

Commissar Lord Leading 40-50 conscripts
2 x 40 man blobs with 2 commissars with axes, cheap autocannons and grenade launchers firing on the move.
4-6 Lascannon HWSs hiding behind a defence line and in area terrain going to ground soaking up firepower with a command squad and chenkov.

You keep saying this will not work in theory, give it a try in reality.

Ashwaster wrote:
Something like this

1) Focus even more on infantry hordes, bring so many bodies that tank/flyer spam lists can't even hope to kill them all, and camp your "home" objectives. It's boring (you'll just pull models off until the game ends and then hopefully win on objectives), it's likely to force you to play for a draw, and it sucks if you have an odd number of objectives and your opponent gets to place first, but if you can't hold objectives as it is then it's your only hope to win with foot hordes.

You should un-think a lot of what changed your list when 6th came out. Go back to your roots.

Get commissars back in your list. Get an Aegis. Get more boots and more guns.

Commissar Lord Leading 40-50 conscripts
2 x 40 man blobs with 2 commissars with axes, cheap autocannons and grenade launchers firing on the move.
4-6 Lascannon HWSs hiding behind a defence line and in area terrain going to ground soaking up firepower with a command squad and chenkov.

You keep saying this will not work in theory, give it a try in reality.

Literally none of this is a good idea.

You should un-think a lot of what changed your list when 6th came out. Go back to your roots. Get an Aegis.

That was funny to me.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Hmm, so if any product that says its 40k official is 40k official, that means it's official?

Excuse me, I'm going to go write a fandex now and claim my own rules are legal...

In any case, this is all grossly beside the point.

If GW themselves release it and say so, then yeah. Yeah it is.

So I can bring in LoTR as GW released it? cool fear the Nazghul!

 Ailaros wrote:
Hmm, so if any product that says its 40k official is 40k official, that means it's official?

Can we please not waste time on stupid arguments like that?

Any product published by GW that says it's official is official.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Actually the BGB directly says to use the Codexes. It says nothing about IA books. Using a supplement that is not even mentioned by the main rules is questionable at best.

The printed copy of the rulebook isn't the only source of rules. Just like GW publishes errata and codex updates through their website (and good luck convincing anyone to ignore them) GW has the right to publish later books which add on to the printed rulebook. This is exactly what they have done by saying "this is official and part of standard 40k" in the relevant books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
So I can bring in LoTR as GW released it? cool fear the Nazghul!

Oh FFS. Is it really that hard to understand the difference between a GW product which explicitly says "part of standard 40k" and an entirely separate game system?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Hmm, so if any product that says its 40k official is 40k official, that means it's official?

Excuse me, I'm going to go write a fandex now and claim my own rules are legal...

In any case, this is all grossly beside the point.

If GW themselves release it and say so, then yeah. Yeah it is.

So I can bring in LoTR as GW released it? cool fear the Nazghul!

Does it say 40k official? Because then yeah you sure can, big guy!

Oh wait, it doesn't, and your ridiculous faux-point just serves to demonstrate your inability to understand the discussion at hand.

Sucks being out of the loop I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

The printed copy of the rulebook isn't the only source of rules. Just like GW publishes errata and codex updates through their website (and good luck convincing anyone to ignore them) GW has the right to publish later books which add on to the printed rulebook. This is exactly what they have done by saying "this is official and part of standard 40k" in the relevant books.

If this wasn't the case, we'd still be in rogue trader.

Because correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the 5th edition rulebook said anything like "Use this book, codices, FAQs, and the 6th edition rulebook replaces everything in this one"

SO THE FIFTH EDITION BOOK IS STILL IN EFFECT YOU GUYS

/thread

flyers are skimmers, fortifications aren't allowed, and so on.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Hmm, so if any product that says its 40k official is 40k official, that means it's official?

Can we please not waste time on stupid arguments like that?

Any product published by GW that says it's official is official.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Actually the BGB directly says to use the Codexes. It says nothing about IA books. Using a supplement that is not even mentioned by the main rules is questionable at best.

The printed copy of the rulebook isn't the only source of rules. Just like GW publishes errata and codex updates through their website (and good luck convincing anyone to ignore them) GW has the right to publish later books which add on to the printed rulebook. This is exactly what they have done by saying "this is official and part of standard 40k" in the relevant books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
So I can bring in LoTR as GW released it? cool fear the Nazghul!

Oh FFS. Is it really that hard to understand the difference between a GW product which explicitly says "part of standard 40k" and an entirely separate game system?

So arguing from a pure RAW point, using the Written rules found in the 40k 6th edition Rulebook you can't use FW models.

Hell even using the GW FAQ's and Erratas found in the link in my sig. Still nothing is to be found.

I've got a rubber stamp that says that, so yep.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Ashwaster wrote:
Something like this

1) Focus even more on infantry hordes, bring so many bodies that tank/flyer spam lists can't even hope to kill them all, and camp your "home" objectives. It's boring (you'll just pull models off until the game ends and then hopefully win on objectives), it's likely to force you to play for a draw, and it sucks if you have an odd number of objectives and your opponent gets to place first, but if you can't hold objectives as it is then it's your only hope to win with foot hordes.

You should un-think a lot of what changed your list when 6th came out. Go back to your roots.

Get commissars back in your list. Get an Aegis. Get more boots and more guns.

Commissar Lord Leading 40-50 conscripts
2 x 40 man blobs with 2 commissars with axes, cheap autocannons and grenade launchers firing on the move.
4-6 Lascannon HWSs hiding behind a defence line and in area terrain going to ground soaking up firepower with a command squad and chenkov.

You keep saying this will not work in theory, give it a try in reality.

Literally none of this is a good idea.

You should un-think a lot of what changed your list when 6th came out. Go back to your roots. Get an Aegis.

That was funny to me.

More of a "go back to having a 4+ save" maybe :-P

Without Chimeras, Flyers, Allies & Forgeworld I think you need to get more boots & guns, one way or another.

Ashwaster wrote:


Without Chimeras, Flyers, Allies & Forgeworld I think you need to get more boots & guns, one way or another.

I mean, yeah, because that's all that there is left. But it's still not a good idea.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
So arguing from a pure RAW point, using the Written rules found in the 40k 6th edition Rulebook you can't use FW models.

Fine. You also can't use any of the FAQs or errata or codex updates published by GW because they are not in the paper copy of the core rulebook or codices. Good lucky playing a functional game of 6th edition without them.

Hell even using the GW FAQ's and Erratas found in the link in my sig. Still nothing is to be found.

Hey guys, I looked in the space marine codex and can't find the rules for a Leman Russ so you can't use yours in your IG army.

I've got a rubber stamp that says that, so yep.

Yeah, because your insane ranting about what is legal has the same legitimacy as GW explicitly stating that FW rules are part of 40k.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


So arguing from a pure RAW point, using the Written rules found in the 40k 6th edition Rulebook you can't use FW models.

Hell even using the GW FAQ's and Erratas found in the link in my sig. Still nothing is to be found.

I've got a rubber stamp that says that, so yep.

No. There is no rule saying "FW Rules are not for standard 40k."

There, however, in an officially GW licensed rules supplement, exact writing saying that FW rules are for standard 40k.

So yeah. RAW. Kinda beat yourself up on that one.

I've been finding the tough stuff is hard to take down as well.As far as the tough units go, I can tell you what works for me. I have horrible luck with plasma as well, and my FLGS has been shifting in that direction as well. In fact, I'm starting to run 4 LRBT's as a starting point in my lists.


As far as the tough, multi-wound high thoughness stuff goes:
Take a CCS, plop four plasma guns on the thing and give the commander two plasma pistols. This squad also does the job of popping light transports, so you've got some versatility there. And when the chimera pops, that just means they can twin-link their shots against their target. It's cheap and will do its job.

I know you're fond of flamer-stormtroopers, I I find maxing out meltaside stormies give better results when some vehicle needs to be dead. Plus, the points saved gives you some options to put elsewhere in your list.
-------------------------

The real trick to both of these is that they are essentially one-offs. You need a durable base of fire to lob shells downrange. And, aside from one battle report where you went fishing for a turn two deathstrike launch, I gather you're not to fond of one-offs, and the only think I can think of that has a chance against fliers is a platoon or two full of lascannon heavy weapon teams.




Another idea off the top of my head is a full Al-rahem platoon with your choice of plasmas or meltas. Perhaps coming in on the flank as well will mess with their flyer's flight paths or give you some shots at the side or rear armor of the tough stuff. Then, you drop in your flamerthrower stormtroopers as well to support the incoming platoon. Heck, while you're at it, take Creed and go big, outflank TWO platoons two midigate the chances of coming in on the wrong side.

 Peregrine wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
So arguing from a pure RAW point, using the Written rules found in the 40k 6th edition Rulebook you can't use FW models.

Fine. You also can't use any of the FAQs or errata or codex updates published by GW because they are not in the paper copy of the core rulebook or codices. Good lucky playing a functional game of 6th edition without them.

Hell even using the GW FAQ's and Erratas found in the link in my sig. Still nothing is to be found.

Hey guys, I looked in the space marine codex and can't find the rules for a Leman Russ so you can't use yours in your IG army.

I've got a rubber stamp that says that, so yep.

Yeah, because your insane ranting about what is legal has the same legitimacy as GW explicitly stating that FW rules are part of 40k.

Noted, I can get along in 6th w/o the faq's we'd just have to houserule some stuff. Kinda like if we allowed FW...

Have you seen what GW considers 40k legal in codexes? I think I'd do just fine stamping stuff. (Again, I'd have to houserule to allow it though)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCaptain wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


So arguing from a pure RAW point, using the Written rules found in the 40k 6th edition Rulebook you can't use FW models.

Hell even using the GW FAQ's and Erratas found in the link in my sig. Still nothing is to be found.

I've got a rubber stamp that says that, so yep.

No. There is no rule saying "FW Rules are not for standard 40k."

There, however, in an officially GW licensed rules supplement, exact writing saying that FW rules are for standard 40k.

So yeah. RAW. Kinda beat yourself up on that one.

Sorry nah it doesn't say that in the least. IIRC it says "40k Approved" not 40k legal

We go back to the rulebook, does it say you can use your IA book? Or only Codex?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Noted, I can get along in 6th w/o the faq's we'd just have to houserule some stuff. Kinda like if we allowed FW...

I didn't say just FAQs, I said errata and codex updates as well. Enjoy your broken game when I, for example, play my Tau army with a target lock and attempt to use it in my first shooting phase. Since we're playing with the printed rules only I now have to take a target priority test (which no longer exists), so the game breaks and can not continue. Oops.

And no, allowing FW doesn't require house rules. Banning it does though.

Have you seen what GW considers 40k legal in codexes? I think I'd do just fine stamping stuff. (Again, I'd have to houserule to allow it though)

Err, what are you talking about?

Sorry nah it doesn't say that in the least. IIRC it says "40k Approved" not 40k legal

Perhaps you should read the text explaining that little icon instead of just looking at the pretty pictures? It clearly states that the units marked with that icon are official and part of standard 40k.

We go back to the rulebook, does it say you can use your IA book? Or only Codex?

Who gives a about what the paper copy of the rulebook says? GW has a clear policy of updating the game and adding new rules through additional materials published later, which includes errata, codex updates, IA books, WD rules, etc. The rules for 40k include all of these updates.

Seriously guys? This FW stuff comes up in every topic like it's Marbo or something.

 kestril wrote:
Seriously guys? This FW stuff comes up in every topic like it's Marbo or something.

That's what happens when people who are terrified of admitting that their "no FW rules" policy is a house rule show up, everything is immediately derailed into nitpicking the exact wording of every sentence and making absurd arguments about how their new fandex also has to be legal. It would easily be solved if they'd admit that the very clear explicit statement from GW is that FW is part of 40k, and that they just have a personal house rule that they don't use it or play against it. But I guess that would be too much of a blow to their ego...

 Peregrine wrote:

Sorry nah it doesn't say that in the least. IIRC it says "40k Approved" not 40k legal

Perhaps you should read the text explaining that little icon instead of just looking at the pretty pictures? It clearly states that the units marked with that icon are official and part of standard 40k.

Told you.

 Peregrine wrote:

We go back to the rulebook, does it say you can use your IA book? Or only Codex?

Who gives a about what the paper copy of the rulebook says? GW has a clear policy of updating the game and adding new rules through additional materials published later, which includes errata, codex updates, IA books, WD rules, etc. The rules for 40k include all of these updates.

This statement reeks of ignorance and unwillingness to accept factual evidence, Mr. Dean

Confronted with overwhelming facts pro FW, you resort to the weakest argument still available. "The BGB doesn't say you can use it."

It doesn't say you can use blue dice. Doesn't say you can play in cargo shorts. Doesn't say you can play in sunglasses.

Now, you can houserule those mentioned matters, but in the case of FW, Games Workshop eliminates the need by providing an actual rule of inclusion.

Or do you want Phil Kelly to handwrite "Use FW too" in your rulebook for you?

 Peregrine wrote:


And no, allowing FW doesn't require house rules. Banning it does though.

Than break out your 6th ed. rulebook and show me where you can use the IA book, it clearly spells out codex. Is the IA book a codex? (nope)

I'm so happy our LGS owner doesn't allow FW for tourneys. Although if the BGB said they were legal he'd be more than happy to.

 Peregrine wrote:

 kestril wrote:
Seriously guys? This FW stuff comes up in every topic like it's Marbo or something.

That's what happens when people who are terrified of admitting that their "no FW rules" policy is a house rule show up, everything is immediately derailed into nitpicking the exact wording of every sentence and making absurd arguments about how their new fandex also has to be legal. It would easily be solved if they'd admit that the very clear explicit statement from GW is that FW is part of 40k, and that they just have a personal house rule that they don't use it or play against it. But I guess that would be too much of a blow to their ego...

Oh yeah. They're fine saying they play with no FW, but as soon as they're made to admit that its out of fear/ignorance, and not adherence to rules that they've misread, it becomes a huge deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


And no, allowing FW doesn't require house rules. Banning it does though.

Than break out your 6th ed. rulebook and show me where you can use the IA book, it clearly spells out codex. Is the IA book a codex? (nope)

*Then

And you wrongly assume that the BGB is the only available source of official 40k rules.

I'd be more embarrassed, and less smug in your position. Continued insistence that something so silly is right is, well...silly.

Edit: to take a page from your logic, show me where it says you can't use it?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Than break out your 6th ed. rulebook and show me where you can use the IA book, it clearly spells out codex. Is the IA book a codex? (nope)

Just as soon as you break out your (paper copy) 6th ed. rulebook and show me the full text of all of the errata and codex updates that are required to play 6th edition. Since even if you pretend otherwise here, I know you use them and consider them official.

(Hint: you won't find them outside of the pdfs GW put on their website.)

On the topic of forge world I agree that, while the FW book may say it its legal, there is still a clear division between 40k codex units and forge worlds supplement units to the codex. A big part of it is that the FW books are optional to running a codex army, another part is how expensive and limited in availability the books and models are. Many big tourneys disallow fw for this reason, and thus in friendly games where people want to test for tourneys fw is an unwanted addition.

On point, while I myself like vendettas, hydras and manticores still get the job done right? I mean, s10 ord for ground stuff and a hydra detachment for air stuff. Also, the aegis I feel is a good buy, but chimeras also work. Both provide cover and shooting for the other forces you have.

What about close combat by the way? Krak blobs and demo vets do well versus most vehicles, krak blobs being my choice. I think that divination sm allies really add a lot to a blob, but it is playable without them.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Sorry nah it doesn't say that in the least. IIRC it says "40k Approved" not 40k legal

Perhaps you should read the text explaining that little icon instead of just looking at the pretty pictures? It clearly states that the units marked with that icon are official and part of standard 40k.

Told you.

 Peregrine wrote:

We go back to the rulebook, does it say you can use your IA book? Or only Codex?

Who gives a about what the paper copy of the rulebook says? GW has a clear policy of updating the game and adding new rules through additional materials published later, which includes errata, codex updates, IA books, WD rules, etc. The rules for 40k include all of these updates.

This statement reeks of ignorance and unwillingness to accept factual evidence, Mr. Dean

Confronted with overwhelming facts pro FW, you resort to the weakest argument still available. "The BGB doesn't say you can use it."

It doesn't say you can use blue dice. Doesn't say you can play in cargo shorts. Doesn't say you can play in sunglasses.

Now, you can houserule those mentioned matters, but in the case of FW, Games Workshop eliminates the need by providing an actual rule of inclusion.

Or do you want Phil Kelly to handwrite "Use FW too" in your rulebook for you?

The rulebook states what you can use though.
It states codexes.
Are the IA books codexes?
Why wouldn't I fall back to it? It's not the weakest though, not by a long shot.

What I'd like, and truthfully it would be beneficial to us all. Would be an Errata to the main rulebook if they had wanted to allow IA Books, it would go there.

DevianID wrote:
On the topic of forge world I agree that, while the FW book may say it its legal, there is still a clear division between 40k codex units and forge worlds supplement units to the codex. A big part of it is that the FW books are optional to running a codex army,

So are heavy support, elites, and fast attack. Point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


The rulebook states what you can use though.
It states codexes.
Are the IA books codexes?
Why wouldn't I fall back to it? It's not the weakest though, not by a long shot.

What I'd like, and truthfully it would be beneficial to us all. Would be an Errata to the main rulebook if they had wanted to allow IA Books, it would go there.

Where.

Grab your Dark Vengeance rulebook (The most recently published version of the rules) and show me where it says that. I dare you. Because I have it next to me, and it says nothing of the sort.

TheCaptain wrote:And you wrongly assume that the BGB is the only available source of official 40k rules.

Why on earth should I assume that things outside of the rule book for a game are rules for a game?

PLEASE stop taking this thread off-topic.

DevianID wrote:
Many big tourneys disallow fw for this reason, and thus in friendly games where people want to test for tourneys fw is an unwanted addition.

Which is a fair point. If you want to test for an upcoming tournament then it's reasonable to ask to only play a no-FW game (though I still wouldn't play that person), but I don't think the OP plays in tournaments.

(Of course the solution is to convince the TO to allow FW units.)

how expensive and limited in availability the books and models are

Just to deal with this misconception: every model and book FW sells can be bought through their website. It's expensive, sure, but in the modern age when you order a pizza through the internet it's not really "limited availability" to have to buy something online.

On point, while I myself like vendettas, hydras and manticores still get the job done right? I mean, s10 ord for ground stuff and a hydra detachment for air stuff. Also, the aegis I feel is a good buy, but chimeras also work. Both provide cover and shooting for the other forces you have.

They don't get the job done very well. Manticores took a big hit with AP 4 now being the equivalent of 5th edition AP -, while Hydras are crippled against ground targets thanks to getting skyfire but not interceptor. With only three slots available taking a combination of the two and expecting them both to get the job done isn't very realistic.

Speaking of which Marbo is not bad at some of the stuff you are struggling with...sorry Marbo made me. Seriously though, please stay on topic as this discussion will go nowhere.

Now in all seriousness without FW or valkeries you probably aren't gonna be able to deal with fliers. This means doubling down on number of bodies (since most fliers are better against tanks than troops) and fixing your problem with tough units. Tough units means plasma or melta stormies...Marbo perhaps...and your current lascannon/melta. Part of your problem is the small amount of cover I have been seeing in your battle reports.

An aegis defense line with an icarus lascannon would really behoove you as it will help against everything you have problems with (BiD still TL the thing against everything you dislike).

Of course the book struggles with the new flier rules without updates. Which would mean forgeworld but if you don't like it you don't like it. (Sorry for the text wall)

 TheCaptain wrote:

DevianID wrote:
On the topic of forge world I agree that, while the FW book may say it its legal, there is still a clear division between 40k codex units and forge worlds supplement units to the codex. A big part of it is that the FW books are optional to running a codex army,

So are heavy support, elites, and fast attack. Point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


The rulebook states what you can use though.
It states codexes.
Are the IA books codexes?
Why wouldn't I fall back to it? It's not the weakest though, not by a long shot.

What I'd like, and truthfully it would be beneficial to us all. Would be an Errata to the main rulebook if they had wanted to allow IA Books, it would go there.

Where.

Grab your Dark Vengeance rulebook (The most recently published version of the rules) and show me where it says that. I dare you. Because I have it next to me, and it says nothing of the sort.

Considering it's the same book minus all the fluff as the hardback copy I have outside ...
You'll have to wait a few than.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:And you wrongly assume that the BGB is the only available source of official 40k rules.

Why on earth should I assume that things outside of the rule book for a game are rules for a game?

Because GW has a clear policy of publishing updates and additions to the game outside of the paper copies of the core rulebook and codices. They publish errata and FAQs online, and additional rules through WD and FW. All of these things are part of the standard game.

Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:And you wrongly assume that the BGB is the only available source of official 40k rules.

Why on earth should I assume that things outside of the rule book for a game are rules for a game?

PLEASE stop taking this thread off-topic.

Sorry man, but this is pretty on topic. You said yourself "I want to use things from the guard codex because I want to be a guard player. As for forgeworld, when I see in the rulebook where it says they're allowed, I'll consider it."

We're just working that one out.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

DevianID wrote:
On the topic of forge world I agree that, while the FW book may say it its legal, there is still a clear division between 40k codex units and forge worlds supplement units to the codex. A big part of it is that the FW books are optional to running a codex army,

So are heavy support, elites, and fast attack. Point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


The rulebook states what you can use though.
It states codexes.
Are the IA books codexes?
Why wouldn't I fall back to it? It's not the weakest though, not by a long shot.

What I'd like, and truthfully it would be beneficial to us all. Would be an Errata to the main rulebook if they had wanted to allow IA Books, it would go there.

Where.

Grab your Dark Vengeance rulebook (The most recently published version of the rules) and show me where it says that. I dare you. Because I have it next to me, and it says nothing of the sort.

Considering it's the same book minus all the fluff as the hardback copy I have outside ...
You'll have to wait a few than.

Actually its quite different. Because I have both next to me. So by referring to the hardback copy you have "outside" you are referring to an outdated version of the rules.

Capt wins the day again.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Sorry man, but this is pretty on topic. You said yourself "I want to use things from the guard codex because I want to be a guard player. As for forgeworld, when I see in the rulebook where it says they're allowed, I'll consider it."

We're just working that one out.

And it's a very relevant discussion too. Allow me to summarize the conversation:


FW guy #1: Hey, I noticed that foot IG are going to have some problems in 6th. Think we can do anything about that?
FW guy #2: What about those Sabre guns sitting around waiting for an update? Let's replace those old worthless HWS.
FW guy #1: Yeah, if we make them awesome anti-air units we can fill in that weakness and give foot lists a chance.

*FW publishes IA:Aeronautica*

Ailaros: That's not official! Give me another AA unit or I'll just quit playing IG!

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Sorry man, but this is pretty on topic. You said yourself "I want to use things from the guard codex because I want to be a guard player. As for forgeworld, when I see in the rulebook where it says they're allowed, I'll consider it."

We're just working that one out.

And it's a very relevant discussion too. Allow me to summarize the conversation:


FW guy #1: Hey, I noticed that foot IG are going to have some problems in 6th. Think we can do anything about that?
FW guy #2: What about those Sabre guns sitting around waiting for an update? Let's replace those old worthless HWS.
FW guy #1: Yeah, if we make them awesome anti-air units we can fill in that weakness and give foot lists a chance.

*FW publishes IA:Aeronautica*

Ailaros: That's not official! Give me another AA unit or I'll just quit playing IG!

It's official just not 40k official. (which is funny, guess that's false advertising??)

Also Cap; pg 108 of the rulebook. Codexes and Army List.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
It's official just not 40k official. (which is funny, guess that's false advertising??)

Only if you stubbornly insist on making up your own policy about how things work. Fortunately GW is more sensible about it, and their policy is the only one that matters.

 Peregrine wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
It's official just not 40k official. (which is funny, guess that's false advertising??)

Only if you stubbornly insist on making up your own policy about how things work. Fortunately GW is more sensible about it, and their policy is the only one that matters.

Or in your case stubbornly ignore RAW

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Also Cap; pg 108 of the rulebook. Codexes and Army List.

"Each of the races or space-born empires in WH40k has a codex - a book that contains rules background, and collecting information for that army."

In fact, doesn't even mention FAQs and Errata. Guess those are out the window. What a shame. Good thing flawed logic trumps actual adherence to rules as they are presented, right?

Boy, you sure showed me.

No wait.

Yes, HQ? Copy that.

No, sorry, I'm getting intel that the text in question does absolutely nothing for your argument. Codices contain rules and info about armies. Doesn't say FW stuff isn't to be included as a part of them, or that FW rules supplements aren't a part of 40k.

So, congratulations, you have proven to me that Codices are official parts of 40k rules. Nice.

Good thing FW stuff is too.

 TheCaptain wrote:

DevianID wrote:
On the topic of forge world I agree that, while the FW book may say it its legal, there is still a clear division between 40k codex units and forge worlds supplement units to the codex. A big part of it is that the FW books are optional to running a codex army,

So are heavy support, elites, and fast attack. Point?

Captain notice I said codex army. A heavy support is still an ig codex unit, and the op wants to play with the ig codex, not the ig space wolves codecs and collected imperial armor books. Guy has enough to carry around with guard as it is.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Good thing FW stuff is too.

Only in your quaint little houseruled Dreamworld you happen to be sharing with Peregrine.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

Good thing FW stuff is too.

Only in your quaint little houseruled Dreamworld you happen to be sharing with Peregrine.

Good job dodging my rebuttal up there.

Get proved wrong? Better resort to rhetoric and insult.

Nice.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Only in your quaint little houseruled Dreamworld you happen to be sharing with Peregrine.

At least my houseruled dreamworld is a functioning game, which is more than I can say for your houseruled dreamworld where the only legal rules are the printed copies of the core rulebook and codices and no other material, including the errata and codex updates that are required to play the game, can be used.

DevianID wrote:
and the op wants to play with the ig codex, not the ig space wolves codecs and collected imperial armor books. Guy has enough to carry around with guard as it is.

The OP has unrealistic ideas about what is possible. It's entirely fair to point out that FW has published nice gift-wrapped units that do exactly what he wants, and that refusing to use them out of some bizarre interpretation of the rules is just plain self destructive.

 TheCaptain wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

Good thing FW stuff is too.

Only in your quaint little houseruled Dreamworld you happen to be sharing with Peregrine.

Good job dodging my rebuttal up there.

Get proved wrong? Better resort to rhetoric and insult.

Nice.

Which part?

The one about the army list?
The first line under force org on 108?

The fine line is you can't teach a blind man to see.
So I'm going to stop trying.

Ailaros, I know you to be a lascannon advocate. How have they been holding up for you in recent games?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:


The OP has unrealistic ideas about what is possible. It's entirely fair to point out that FW has published nice gift-wrapped units that do exactly what he wants, and that refusing to use them out of some bizarre interpretation of the rules is just plain self destructive.

Oddly enough, it's not that bizarre of an interpretation.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Oddly enough, it's not that bizarre of an interpretation.

Well, I suppose if your definition of "not that bizarre" includes "directly contradicts both the policy of the people who create the game and common sense" and "pulled entirely from your own imagination based on stubborn refusal to accept that your house rule is a house rule", then yeah, I guess it isn't that bizarre.

The op does not have unrealistic expectations. Besides vendettas, I thought the whole codex is available? Heck we don't even have a point cost from the op yet. Writing off the ig codex for imperial armor is premature, when the stated goal is not to win every game but crowd source ig heavy unit answers.

I still think the hydra and manticores have value, but other options are out there. Multilasers sentinels I have a sweet spot for, and I always like to have straken when playing pure guard. Straken took a hit with init on furious charge, but is still a monster with s7 2d6 armor pen attacks.

Also foot guard with rough riders I think should be considered. Speedy charges, decent attacks, and a few upgrade options.

 Peregrine wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Oddly enough, it's not that bizarre of an interpretation.

Well, I suppose if your definition of "not that bizarre" includes "directly contradicts both the policy of the people who create the game and common sense" and "pulled entirely from your own imagination based on stubborn refusal to accept that your house rule is a house rule", then yeah, I guess it isn't that bizarre.

Right considering you have so much support from the 6th ed rulebook ...

Wait a second, no. In fact it's the opposite so ... yea ...

40k is a game. It has a rulebook. The rules are found in that rulebook. To take rules from somewhere else and attempt to apply them to a game that doesn't mention them in the rules makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You might as well be talking about using forgeworld units in a game of poker or roulette. Furthermore it is completely out of scope of this discussion.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Ailaros, I know you to be a lascannon advocate. How have they been holding up for you in recent games?

Well, but the problem is that I never seem to have enough of them. Night fighting is harsh, and so are ruins saves. Given how flimsy HWSs are, I'm almost getting desperate enough to consider armored sentinels with lascannons. A squad of 3 of them costs as much as 2 lascannon HWSs which have twice the lascannons. Are the sentinels twice as durable as an HWS? I'm tempted to answer "yes".

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Oddly enough, it's not that bizarre of an interpretation.

Well, I suppose if your definition of "not that bizarre" includes "directly contradicts both the policy of the people who create the game and common sense" and "pulled entirely from your own imagination based on stubborn refusal to accept that your house rule is a house rule", then yeah, I guess it isn't that bizarre.

Right considering you have so much support from the 6th ed rulebook ...

Wait a second, no. In fact it's the opposite so ... yea ...

Closemindedness and refusal of understanding isn't a pretty color on you, bud.

Continually citing a rulebook verse that doesn't exist is getting ridiculous.

Both peregrine and I have demonstrated direct text-based ruling that FW stuff is to be included.

You've presented naught a rune in contrary.

But, as you said, teaching the blind to see and whatnot.

 Ailaros wrote:
40k is a game. It has a rulebook. The rules are found in that rulebook. To take rules from somewhere else and attempt to apply them to a game that doesn't mention them in the rules makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You might as well be talking about using forgeworld units in a game of poker or roulette. Furthermore it is completely out of scope of this discussion.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Ailaros, I know you to be a lascannon advocate. How have they been holding up for you in recent games?

Well, but the problem is that I never seem to have enough of them. Night fighting is harsh, and so are ruins saves. Given how flimsy HWSs are, I'm almost getting desperate enough to consider armored sentinels with lascannons. A squad of 3 of them costs as much as 2 lascannon HWSs which have twice the lascannons. Are the sentinels twice as durable as an HWS? I'm tempted to answer "yes".

Have you thought about trying the Scout ones? Hoping for a T2 outflank to hit side armor where applicable might not be a bad idea.

That's more than enough with regards to the FW and legality for common play.
Points have been made, both here and on prior occasions. best just drop that for now please.

Further posts on this topic on this thread will be considered spam, will be deleted and warnings/suspensions will be issued to the posters.

Thank you.

 Ailaros wrote:
40k is a game. It has a rulebook. The rules are found in that rulebook. To take rules from somewhere else and attempt to apply them to a game that doesn't mention them in the rules makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Except when said external source says they're rules for the same system in reference. Endorsed and published by the same company that develops the game and rulebook in question.

Edit: Red, I apologize and do hope this isn't taken as spam, as it was in the process of being written before your post was made.

I actually have been experimenting with them recently. The problem with scout sentinels is that they're like stormtroopers - unreliable. They show up on turn 2 from the right board edge and hit with 2 or 3 shots... or they don't, and do nothing. I'm starting to see them as AV10 HWSs, which isn't even that much more durable than HWSs.

Thus my sudden, if non-canonical interest in armored sentinels.

Sure are expensive, though. For the same points, I could have a regular russ with multimeltas and a hull lascannon. Mostly the same anti-tank with better armor and the option of splat-cannoning.

 Ailaros wrote:
So without needing to take vendettas, or without needing to take allies, with just legal guard units, how do you take down this kind of heavy stuff? I've always been a big believer in boys over toys, but the fact that I'm getting beaten up by armies that either literally or virtually min/max troops so they can get more toys is really depressing to me.

I advocate Manticores or Basilisks, depending on how much you need AP3. They won't help against flyers, but they'll do quite well against heavy vehicles. A single Manticore hit will penetrate a vehicle with AV13 sides 75% of the time. Against vehicles with lesser side armor, like Predators or Vindicators, penetration is nearly guaranteed. If these lack survivability for some reason, Demolishers are the next best thing, though I think they are not very efficient for Imperial Guard armies overall.

The other option I've seen for this role is 5-man Stormtrooper suicide squads with dual meltaguns.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Have you thought about trying the Scout ones? Hoping for a T2 outflank to hit side armor where applicable might not be a bad idea.

This is a terrible idea. For 150 points you get a squad of three with LCs, compared to 130 for an outflanking Vendetta with three TL LCs, better armor, only hit on 6s, transport capacity, and flyer mobility. It's usually a bad sign when the glass cannon unit has much less firepower than a flying tank that costs fewer points.

And of course armored Sentinels are garbage. Way too expensive, way too little firepower. If your opponents are bringing minimum-troops lists to wipe you off the table with overwhelming firepower you're not going to counter that effectively by bringing overpriced junk.

 Peregrine wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Have you thought about trying the Scout ones? Hoping for a T2 outflank to hit side armor where applicable might not be a bad idea.

This is a terrible idea. For 150 points you get a squad of three with LCs, compared to 130 for an outflanking Vendetta with three TL LCs, better armor, only hit on 6s, transport capacity, and flyer mobility. It's usually a bad sign when the glass cannon unit has much less firepower than a flying tank that costs fewer points.

Vendettas can't outflank. I agree that they're generally far better than Scout Sentinels, though (how is this even in question?)

So since Ailaros has asked us to come up with solutions not based on Vendettas, can we brainstorm and think of solutions not based on Vendettas.

 Ailaros wrote:


So without needing to take vendettas, or without needing to take allies, with just legal guard units, how do you take down this kind of heavy stuff? I've always been a big believer in boys over toys, but the fact that I'm getting beaten up by armies that either literally or virtually min/max troops so they can get more toys is really depressing to me.

I like the idea of sentinels outflanking, but as you said they are too unreliable. I'd give armored sentinels a go and see how it turns out.

Since my posts here keep getting deleted even when they're on-topic and relevant, I'm going to leave this with my last words on the subject:

The problem is unsolveable.

OP, you are at a fundamental strategic disadvantage in this situation. You play troops-heavy lists that include lots of low-firepower units (conscripts, combined infantry squads, etc) while your opponents bring laughably minimal troops and maximum firepower. In theory you should be able to kill their pathetic scoring units and win on objectives, especially in 6th now that vehicles can't even contest objectives, but this obviously isn't true and maximum firepower is too much of an advantage for your scoring units to overcome. In addition to this, your situation is made worse by the fact that these all-firepower lists contain widely varying types of spammed units, ensuring that a focus on defeating one cripples you against the other.

So, it's very simple: your fundamental strategy denies you enough space to take sufficient firepower to handle all possible opponents simultaneously. You have three choices:

1) Focus entirely on scoring units. This will be the most boring game ever, as you do little more than pull off casualties until the game ends and hope that on the final turn your opponent has failed to kill enough of your army to get you off the objectives. You will have little or no fun, and get more and more frustrated until you give up.

2) Make fundamental changes to your army, including both strategy and your list of "acceptable" units. The only options that can solve your problem are denied by your self-imposed limits, so your only hope is to remove those limits. You will need to use units that you currently reject, and you will need to redefine your army concept to focus on firepower with troops (especially low-firepower troops) playing a much more limited role.

3) Accept that the problem can not be solved within your self-imposed limits, and inform your opponents that you will no longer be playing IG against the lists in question. And then carry out that threat, even if it means never playing IG again.


Which one of these three options you choose is up to you, but the miracle solution you are hoping for does not exist.

I think rough rides might be a partial solution, at least to high toughness foot troops and high AV vehicles. With some meltabombs and shotguns along with the hunting lances, they should be able to put the hurt on units who get too close to your lines or vehicles. I would imagine they could do interesting things to dreads and monstrous creatures as well.

That leaves fliers and as a Sisters player, I'm in the same boat you are. I would like to play a pure sisters force, but those Tyranid fliers stomp me pretty hard. I'd rather not ally, so I'm left scratching my head.

I know you have a general distaste for the autocannons, but they might be the thing you need against the fliers. Enough shots to get a hit or two, which might down the beast and then you can pour on the lascannon fire.

I run a similar list to you Ailaros. In fact, you could say that some of it was inspired by your lists.

I have been trying out three demolishers for my heavy support. They can deal with most targets and push down a flank quite well. I either use them as cover for some advancing troops or put a conscript screen in front of them. They are not useful against fliers but are quite cheap with just hull flamers. Followed up by stormtrooper drops I can actually make a decent incursion into the enemies half.

The one problem I am having though is knowing when to advance the platoons. I find I always want to just gunline with the lascannons.

Well if night fighting is giving you some trouble what about putting some search lights on your scout sentinels, scouting up the board turn 1, and lighting a few things up for the rest of your army. Also I understand the fragility of HWSs, but if you just relentlessly spam them in addition to your blob heavy weapons you should in theory be able to overwhelm regardless of losses.

Here are a few experimental ideas I've been playing with.

Have you tried foot vets and demo spam ? for 100 pts you get 10 guards with bs4 10 metla bombs and a demo charge.
That will kill pretty much anything short of a flyer.
It's far from perfect, but if you use a mix of vet squads with demo and platoons, it could work.

It's foot guard, no forgeworld, no vendetta, and still pretty nasty.

And people, READ the op, and respect the subject. God emperor be saved, Pereguine STHAP derailing every thread for feth sake. /rant

I never understood why you took the Al'Raheim platoon out of your army. A large contingent of troops with heavy weapons (either melta or plasma) that comes in the opponent's backfield. It provides a (semi) durable scoring unit that gains the initiative the turn it arrives. It has its pick of dangerous targets to choose from and (on average) should destroy it. Then, once that is done, the opponent has to deal with the threat or ignore it at their own peril, probably giving up line breaker and an objective. The unit obviously has problems (Reserve rolls are still random, there's a 1/3 chance to get the wrong side) but I believe the merits of the unit bear consideration in this circumstance. Even if it only aids in the solving of two problems listed in the original post (MCs and Hard Armor).

I also remember this unit being paired with an Astropath, giving you a reroll if you managed to roll the wrong side.

As for fliers, I remember in an early Battle Report in your series that you used a Primaris Psyker with Living Lightning. It glanced a flier to death. Not the most reliable method but, given its price point, it certainly is an option.

None of the units I mentioned above have the power to cost ratio of a vendetta, but they're possibilities. And in the end I think it's a bit more fruitful to look at those less than optimized possibilities than arguing the parameters of the discussion.

For your flyer problems, have you tried Hydras ?
The big problem with hydras if mixed into your usual lists would be the fact that they will be the only vehicles, and will get pummled early on.

Maybe some Hydras in reserve ? I know vs cronair this works well. I've never seen anyone but me field them, and I've only done so a couple of times.

 Peregrine wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Have you thought about trying the Scout ones? Hoping for a T2 outflank to hit side armor where applicable might not be a bad idea.

This is a terrible idea. For 150 points you get a squad of three with LCs, compared to 130 for an outflanking Vendetta with three TL LCs, better armor, only hit on 6s, transport capacity, and flyer mobility. It's usually a bad sign when the glass cannon unit has much less firepower than a flying tank that costs fewer points.

And of course armored Sentinels are garbage. Way too expensive, way too little firepower. If your opponents are bringing minimum-troops lists to wipe you off the table with overwhelming firepower you're not going to counter that effectively by bringing overpriced junk.

Keeping On topic the OP has said no to Vendettas, so lets try some ideas as such. Stop your needless bickering, whining and complaining and bring something useful or better yet just stay out of it.

If we ignore the flyer aspect for the most part you could try.

an ADL w/ either Q-Gun or Las. Possibly 2x Manticore for lucky vehicle popping or HP stripping.

I concur with gpfunk.

From what I remember 4 pages ago in the OP it seemed like AV13-14 and fliers were the main problems.

For AV13-14 I would try:
Melta Storm troops, since enemy troops are not really the problem.
Al'Raheim + Astropath, and I would put 2 melta special weapons squads or 1 melta SWS and 1 flamer SWS.
Rough Riders, give them melta and with a 12" move could be nice if you get some cover on your empty tables.
Devil Dog with multi melta, fast tank should be able to get both shots off on your first turn (albiet not in 2d6 range).
Scout Sentinels w/ lascannons

For Flyers:
Squad of 2 Hydras with an aegis. (Dont need a quad gun) Put them in a corner like you do normally with vehicles so they will always be forced to shoot at the front arc. I'm fairly new so forgive me if i'm wrong but the fact that they can see the top of the tank is irelevant. Only barrage has rules for that. If the flier is close enough to see more than 75% of the front facing to negate the cover of your hydra than he probably can't shoot you as I think they can only shoot 45 degrees down. (I will be looking this up again when I get home to be sure)

I say you don't need the quad gun because the gun alone is not enough for fliers and hydras and a quad gun is too much point wise. Sides, Don't forget that hydras can target skimmers and flying Mcs just fine and also ignore all jink saves even on bikes and jet bikes even if you hit on 6's.

TLDR:
Hydras, Al'Rahame and melta storm troopers.

Rough Riders do not strike me as a terribly serious anti-tank solution. They are extremely vulnerable to being shot by bolters (or gauss flyers, or pulse rifles, etc.) and dying. In 5th edition Rough Riders were underrated because many did not realize their potential as a Reserves-based counterassault unit (though even still they were't great), but now that you cannot charge when entering the table from Reserves I see little merit in fielding them.

To put it another way, if your opponent can't kill ten Guardsmen prior to them charging, you were probably going to win the game anyway...

Manticores or Basilisks (depending on other factors) still strike me as the best solutions on offer here-- perhaps coupled with a fortification (I tend to prefer the Bastion to the Aegis Defense Line), perhaps not.

 portugus wrote:
If the flier is close enough to see more than 75% of the front facing to negate the cover of your hydra than he probably can't shoot you as I think they can only shoot 45 degrees down. (I will be looking this up again when I get home to be sure)

It's 22.5 degrees down, but you bring up an important point that can't be overstated: fliers have a dead zone where they can't shoot hull-mounted weapons. Al'rahem would let you get close to the enemy table edge, forcing the enemy to either overshoot you or end up in a really awkward angle with his/her fliers.

This a little off-topic, but if you can't crush your enemies strengths then you must exploit their weakness (limited troops #s)

What about ignoring the fliers and high AV and just concentrate indirect fire onto their troops/transports. With those gone the enemy looses.

Colossus are good for wiping scoring troops off the board, and you can use your melta stormies to pop their transports.

Or if that's not an option what about Lascannon Sentinels w/HK MIssle or ML w/HK Missle S.Sentinels<(costs the same as an Armoured Sentinel with MtLsr).

For that matter what about HK MIssles on all the vehicles you possess

The rough riders are not for charging, just giving melta guns a 12" move. I shall not use my rough riders for charging until they get a little better.

Yeah I like Gibblet's idea for HKs on sentinels. Put HKs on the scout sentinels so they can actually use the walker rules letting them fire more than one weapon. Plus with BS3 you would really need the extra shots when they come on and than die.

 portugus wrote:
The rough riders are not for charging, just giving melta guns a 12" move. I shall not use my rough riders for charging until they get a little better.

Yeah I like Gibblet's idea for HKs on sentinels. Put HKs on the scout sentinels so they can actually use the walker rules letting them fire more than one weapon. Plus with BS3 you would really need the extra shots when they come on and than die.

I feel if you are giving your RR anything BUT Hunting Lances, you're wasting them. Another BS 3 guardsman with a meltagun?
I'd rather give it to a PCS or a PIS.

I would say that scout sentinels are a little more durable than heavy weapon squadrons, if not by much. Maybe try taking three squads of three scout sentinels, so at least one squadron shows up where you need it to.

Although I can tell you, a Leman Russ has never served me wrong whenever I've fielded it. Still, the problem is that one russ won't get very far when your opponent has brought some anti-tank. If you want the firepower to last, the standard rule of bring three applies.

I'm starting to think you need one or the other: a massive horde or massive firepower. I'd try maxing lascannon HWS and putting lascannons in every infantry squad, forego conscripts entirely, take a few meltaside stormies, and maybe throw in a LRBT here or there and hope for a devastating turn 1 alpha strike. I mean, if you saturate the board with enough HWTs, they won't be able to kill them all simply because there are too many MSU everywhere.

I hear you, I'm just trying to give the OP some ideas to deal with AV13-14. The only reason I suggested it was because 12" move is a lot better than 6" and they are still fleet IIRC. This is all to get them from that sparse bit of cover to the other sparse bit on the tables OP plays on.

haha I'm not saying they are the next vendetta or anything just a new light most people probably havn't seen. Sides that PCS running at those 4 punishers in the OP is going to die before getting there....anyway I'll stick with my first post for melta storm troops and a hydra squad behind an aegis. (with no quad gun to save some points)

Also from the last few battle reports I read of OP all his PIS have melta guns and it isn't working for him.

I'd also not be so quick to discount the Hydra. I know it took a hit in 6th.
I also know in 5th, it was good not only for what it did, but because my opponent
knew what it could do as well. you might use it to set up better fire lanes or board
control to a point. Not to mention, they'll waste time and shots on it.

And I'm not sure if your still use 10 man Stormtrooper squads, but I'd keep them
short, sweet and to the point. Loose the flamers and do 2 Plasma squads, 1 melta squad
and both 5 man min-max squads.

If all your opponents are tending towards specialized armies emphasizing firepower over the ability to field sufficient scoring units, and you're fielding a generalist all-comers list, you're going to be at an inherent disadvantage.

It seems to me that if you wish to prevail in a metagame such as this, you're going to need to specialize your own list in turn. A dedicated IG gunline would probably handle the previous armies pretty well at the expense of being about as enjoyable to play as watching paint dry. Same with massive blobs of guardmen who can't be killed fast enough. If you refuse to use Vendettas or Allies or Forgeworld, I don't see many other options if winning is your objective.

Hospy wrote:
A dedicated IG gunline would probably handle the previous armies pretty well at the expense of being about as enjoyable to play as watching paint dry.

Gunlines are fun.

Just in a different way.

Kingsley wrote:I advocate Manticores or Basilisks, depending on how much you need AP3

So, I certainly have been thinking about this more for the necron part of the problem. One pen is all it takes to throw off the shielding, and with barrage they don't get the cover saves, and with open-topped, I even have a decent chance to kill them outright.

It has also made me start to more seriously consider the battlecannon, but that's both more expensive, and doesn't get to ignore these night-fighty problems in the same way. Something I've started considering, though, is a bolter boat LRBT. That way there are heavy bolters to handle fliers, monstrous creatures and terminators through volume of fire, while it can always switch into splat cannon mode on those rare times it will be useful against infantry (people at my gaming store know how to displace), and for throwing some HP off of heavier vehicles. Not ideal, but at least it's reasonably cheap.

Trickstick wrote:I have been trying out three demolishers for my heavy support.

How has the range problem been treating you? I agree that I like the demolisher for anti-vehicle work, but it seems like it's going to do most other stuff the same as a russ, but more expensive, and more slowly. I used a punisher at a local tournament recently, and when you wind up with vanguard strike, it might take awhile for the main gun to be in range.

Kingsley wrote:The other option I've seen for this role is 5-man Stormtrooper suicide squads with dual meltaguns.

Yeah, I love my stormies and will very likely continue to take them. The problem is that their reliability leaves something to be desired.

Trickstick wrote:The one problem I am having though is knowing when to advance the platoons. I find I always want to just gunline with the lascannons.

Yeah, you and me both.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Well if night fighting is giving you some trouble what about putting some search lights on your scout sentinels, scouting up the board turn 1, and lighting a few things up for the rest of your army.

I did exactly this in my last game. The problem is that you've still got to hit to use the searchlights...

In any case, it brought the save of one unit down from 2+ cover to 4+ cover, which meant I was able to get first blood, but it still seems kind of shaky.

portugus wrote:Yeah I like Gibblet's idea for HKs on sentinels. Put HKs on the scout sentinels so they can actually use the walker rules letting them fire more than one weapon. Plus with BS3 you would really need the extra shots when they come on and than die.

That's actually kind of an interesting idea. With 2 or 3 in a squad with lascannons and HKs, they've got a pretty darn good chance of putting the hurt on SOMETHING the turn they arrive. Plus, I like the shock factor.

I wonder if it would be worth it for the armored variety.

mayfist wrote:Have you tried foot vets and demo spam ? for 100 pts you get 10 guards with bs4 10 metla bombs and a demo charge.

... because you can use meltabombs against monstrous creatures now... Hmm...

The problem I have, though, is that vehicles are going to outrange the vets. Very likely it's going to be me running out and not making it into assault and then the vets getting gunned down the turn after.

mayfist wrote:For your flyer problems, have you tried Hydras ?

Yes, but they don't handle anything but fliers very well. When we had a DE player at my store, I would bring them because I have a personal grudge against DE skimmer spam, but now that he plays grey knights, I don't see much purpose.

gpfunk wrote:I never understood why you took the Al'Raheim platoon out of your army.

My opponents figured him out.

When al'rahem shows up late, and then runs in off the side of the board with no easy, convenient targets and then just gets shot up the next turn, you really wonder why you wasted all of those points on him. Catches new players or people who haven't seen it before off-guard, but against those who know how to handle it, al'rahem tends to do little more than break up force cohesion.

gpfunk wrote:As for fliers, I remember in an early Battle Report in your series that you used a Primaris Psyker with Living Lightning. It glanced a flier to death. Not the most reliable method but, given its price point, it certainly is an option.

I suppose this would also help against monstrous creatures as well.

I guess if my opponent doesn't bring fliers or monstrous creatures, I could always fish for crush or OM on the TK tree.

thedarksaint wrote:I think rough rides might be a partial solution, at least to high toughness foot troops and high AV vehicles.

portugus wrote:The rough riders are not for charging, just giving melta guns a 12" move. I shall not use my rough riders for charging until they get a little better.

... this is actually an interesting solution. 75 points for 2x melta riders compared to 65 points for 3x melta SWS. You get more melta for cheaper with the SWS, but I feel like I scarcely ever got to shoot the SWSs, much less in melta range. With a 24" reach, I just might be able to pull it off. Plus, free krak grenades for 2+/5++MCs and vehicles.

If I had some rough rider models handy, I'd give this a try soon, but as I don't, I'll have to think about it some more before I go to the bother of making models.

Gibblets wrote:This a little off-topic, but if you can't crush your enemies strengths then you must exploit their weakness (limited troops #s)

What about ignoring the fliers and high AV and just concentrate indirect fire onto their troops/transports. With those gone the enemy looses.

So, this has been my thesis for awhile now, but I'm getting concerned because I'm starting to see it fail.

Firstly, only half of the missions are multiple objectives based. Emperor's Will, Relic, and Purge missions give you few benefits for having extra scoring units. If the core of my strategy is only properly going to work on half the games, I just might be in trouble.

Secondly, my opponents have been winning with toys. They're taking high-firepower tough-to-kill units that are capable of shutting down the units that really excel at killing scoring units before they can properly kill off all the scoring units. Plus, consider that we're sometimes talking about scoring units in night scythes, arks, and vendettas, and it can be pretty challenging to be able to even attack the scoring units in the first place. Often I have to wait until after they're de-meched before I can engage them, but by that time, my opponent's stuff may well have killed off my anti-scoring-unit units.

Put another way, I've been doubling down on scoring units, and as of late I've been getting beaten by people who min/max theirs. I find this fact unfortunate.

Really? Autocannons.

Spam those suckers.

Spam them like rice on bread.

Grasping for 6's to glance 4/5HP necron vehicles and predators hardly seems the way to go, and there's not enough volume of fire for things like monstrous creatures (especially when you consider likely concentration issues), and they'll never hurt russes.

Basically the only thing that autocannon spam will handle well here is anti-flier, and even then, not fliers that are AV12.

Yeah, I love my stormies and will very likely continue to take them. The problem is that their reliability leaves something to be desired.

Yup. Last game I brought them against Space Wolves and although they ended up landing where they were needed (thanks to the reroll) I still ended up flubbing on the penetration table and instead of killing Bjorn and a landraider, I ripped off two weapons from two vehicles. Next turn the stormies were horribly butchered.

I am slowly starting to realize that I need to bring 2-3 times more killing power than I ever anticipate as I usually end up scattering too far, missing with both melta guns or not doing enough damage on the damage chart. With guard you don't get too many chances to screw up and win.

 Ailaros wrote:

Trickstick wrote:I have been trying out three demolishers for my heavy support.

How has the range problem been treating you? I agree that I like the demolisher for anti-vehicle work, but it seems like it's going to do most other stuff the same as a russ, but more expensive, and more slowly. I used a punisher at a local tournament recently, and when you wind up with vanguard strike, it might take awhile for the main gun to be in range.

I don't find the range too much of an issue, although it does have to be taken into consideration. 24" doesn't make it useless, it just means it cannot react as well to the situation.

I have a couple of methods of applying them, depending on opponent and mission/setup. The first is as a linebreaker, as they are in the fluff. Aim three of them at the right point of the enemy line and let them off the leash. You just have to set a reasonable goal for them. On the rare occasion they are out of range first turn they can pop smoke, which is something I rarely do with other vehicles.

The other method that I use is reserving all three. This helps greatly against drop pods and fast assault armies, as they can come on exactly where they are needed. I just wish I could buy a comms relay without an aegis, as rerolling both passes and fails can be very nice. Sometimes you just want to delay your reserves a turn.

Perhaps you need to try out more sentinels? From the batreps I've seen it looks like you've only got that one squad of three. What if you min-max your stormtrooper units, did some other point drops, and added another unit or 2?

Also, yeah BS3 to hit with search lights isn't the greatest, but we are only talking one unit here. With more you increase those chances for sure. If it works, I could see this becoming a fun new theme to your list: having up to 9 scout sentinels with LCs. The nice thing too is if there isn't night fighting you can decided to have most of them outflank (if I'm not mistaken you roll night fighting before deployment?).

Yeah, scout sentinels are flexible that way. I like sentinels too, but the idea of buying that many kind of makes me wince. If I buy a russ, I can always swap out the turret, and if I buy chimeras, they can be chimeras, hellhounds, basilisks, hydras, or deathstrikes, etc, depending on my mood. Sentinels are sentinels, though. If I'm not feeling in the mood for them in the future, then they're just going to gather dust.

It's really my problem with vehicles in general. I know I'm always going to need a huge pile of guardsmen with lasguns, and I've been running meltaguns as the special weapon for two editions now (and it doesn't seem likely to change). I have a hard time committing to vehicles, though - just one of the reasons I don't own many.

As for the demolisher, I guess I'm still a touch leery. I mean, I'm going to be going up against warscythe barges which are going to be able to hit the demolishers before the demolishers get to hit the barges. The same is going to be true for shunting/flying dreadknights, and against vehicles with multimelta. And I'm going to have to expose myself to death rays and vendettas and sternguard.

I don't traditionally see the short range of the demolisher as a problem, but now that they're only moving 6", with no flat-out, and given the kinds of things I've been up against, demolishers seem awfully... counterable.

Well, there's always the devil dog. Not the greatest choice in the world, but it is cheaper than the demolisher and 3x s. sentinels and has some nice speed. Downside is that Str 8 at 24 inches. It is gonna struggle against the AV13 and up until you get it within assault/death range.
Yeah, I can see your hesitation with going for more sentinels before knowing how much that many will really contribute. Maybe do a few practice games with something.
I would consider trying out the Manticore (maybe even 2) again as many keep suggesting. It might not have the durability or the AP, but it should reliably penetrate things and combined with all your lascannons, the damage should add up.

There is also something else that I and others around seems to forget every time- Krak Grenades. For deep striking stormtroopers with a couple of melta hitting a squadron from the back/side, a Krak is still a 'free' Str 6 attack on top of the meltas, and it at least another trooper might do some damage. Not optimum, but it's still a notch better than just 2 melta shots.

Auto cannon infanty are good weapons, but not for the op. Neither is Las cannon infantry. I still like the manticore as it can strip quantum shielding well and also beat down infanty and character snipe. Melta bomb infanty deals with monsters very well but without a blob or redundant demo vets they become priority targets. Melta bomb infantry also wreck all ground vehicles. What about trying chimeras loaded with demo vets? Flat out turn 1 to close the gap, turn 2 disembark and shoot, tossing charge as needed, turn 3 assault the vehicles. With perhaps 4 such units and with chimeras as blockers, if even one unit assaults a few vees they will all be toast.

No amount of ranged firepower in Las cannons can match the 10 melta bomb charge without massively inflating cost. A rough rider unit hiding behind the chimeras to mop up or just mince a power armor squad, and your golden.

I wish I had the luck everyone else seems to have with artillery. With the new rules not allowing subtraction of BS for LOS, I'm missing like crazy. My dice hate me. I only scored three direct hits from three basilisks my last game in seven rounds of shooting! They were so ineffective, that only one was destroyed on turn 5, and that's because it was in the vicinity of an objective. I might go back to Russes, but those have disappointed me in the past as well.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Well, there's always the devil dog.

I wish I could like this unit, but I really can't. It's faster than a demolisher, but the demolisher cannon is usually better, and the tank has better armor. It's also faster than a medusa, except that a medusa, with or without BB is way better. I feel like I've got to get pretty low on slots in my army before I'd really take one of these, which is kind of sad.

Inquisitor Jex wrote: For deep striking stormtroopers with a couple of melta hitting a squadron from the back/side, a Krak is still a 'free' Str 6 attack on top of the meltas,

Oh, don't worry, I remember this.

DevianID wrote:Auto cannon infanty are good weapons, but not for the op. Neither is Las cannon infantry.

I've actually been doing pretty well with my melta/lascannon PISs. It's just too much for a lot of stuff that gets real close to handle, and even pretty reliably gets me first blood/is annoying with lascannons at the beginning of the game. The problem, though, is that it's just not enough.

I guess I could always just take more of them, but at some point packing more guys into the same small deployment zone hits diminishing return.

DevianID wrote:What about trying chimeras loaded with demo vets? Flat out turn 1 to close the gap, turn 2 disembark and shoot, tossing charge as needed, turn 3 assault the vehicles. With perhaps 4 such units and with chimeras as blockers, if even one unit assaults a few vees they will all be toast.

I've actually been vaguely thinking about a chimera highland charge. The list being two infantry platoons with melta and lascannons everywhere you can put it, and then some melta vets. The whole army would be more or less troops choices in chimeras. Turn one, everything books it forward. Turn 2, everything is getting meltagunned/heavy flamered.

It's a rather radical departure from what I'm used to and, most importantly, I don't have nearly enough chimeras to pull this kind of list off. Plus, I've never seen a chimera charge before, and I suspect it's for good reason...

Medusa with cammo and bastion breecher shells.
S10 AP1 rolling 2D6 for armor pen kills things.
It's not ordnance, so you can use the hull heavy bolter too.
I've been running PIS squads with lascannons and plasma and use bring it down to help out against flyers. 2 plasmaguns and 2 lascannons, with re-rolls from bring it down has a chance. Having 14 buffer wounds helps too.

As for dealing with enemy indirect fire, I tried something recently that most people will tell you never to take...
Ratlings. 20-30 Ratlings can put out decent hurt into side armor of AV10. I know, everyone loves storm troopers. But the problem with storm troopers is that they don't hit the table until turn 2 or 3, and by then, you're opponent has had 1-3 turns of dishing out hurt. 30 Ratlings can expect about 3-4 rending hits. While not great against most vehicles, against AV10 side armor of open topped tanks gets it done.
Massed snipers are likewise good against monsters.

Rather than Aegis, I've used bastion, with Company Command Squad (with cloaks). You're high enough up that flyers don't negate cover, so you're a lot safer to man that Quad gun/Icarius.

-Matt

It may be a radical departure for you, but some food for thought and it may fit your narrative.

You could take a Fortress of Redemption, place is close to your deployment zone and fill it with conscripts. Place an objective or two on the Fortress and BAM, regenerating defenders for two objectives with AV 14, a Skyfire gun and a missile launcher.

Now you have your brave little goobers defending the holy relic inside, hoping against hope that the enemy doesn't come to close as the brave soldiers that make you your real force go out and stomp face.

I've got a 2nd one, unpainted, that I just don't need. If you like the idea, I could actually mail you the thing, just to see what you do with it.

I like Medusas with BB shells also, they can move 6" and still fire the main weapon, or stay still and also use the HF for close support. It's essentaily 48" higher power Melta Booms.

S.Sentinels are actually a really good way to get armor in cover. 3 LC S.Sentinels with HK MIssles and Camo Netting in area cover can take a lot of incoming fire. Ofcourse depending on your luck, MMV.

For MC there's a Chimera\PCS squad combination I've been thinking about. Chimera ML\HB w\HStb, PCS with1HW choice and 2 SW choices. I'm thinking AC\GLs for 13 Med to High str shots, 11 of them at 36" MCs will be cleansed. But LC\PG or Melta equipment really gives it some bite.

 thedarksaint wrote:
Place an objective or two on the Fortress

Objectives cannot be placed in or on buildings.

I cannot say I have been successful with pure IG lists in 6th (I'm using SM allies), but here are some ideas that I think could improve your chances:

- Rough Riders with Kamir. He is boss since the latest FAQ came out. With him, RR become a whole different level of a threat.
- hard spamming of HWS behind an Aegis. Take something like 10 HWS and GtG with those that are shot at for 2+ cover. There'll always be plenty standing HWS to put out tons of fire. Those that did GtG can target fliers.
- Not sure if you are ready to use Mech IG? You could go completely against the trend and put out 13 AV12 Hulls at 1850 or the like, including 2+ Hydras to counter fliers
- I still think your old Al'Rahem trick can work with an Astropath to help.
- the Wall of Steel: 4 or 5 Russes and a couple of Blobs with an Aegis. 2x Exterminator is a good choice to help against fliers in this list.

Your opoponents go for the kill, so you can try and do the same (where pure IG have a hard time) or counter with spoiler lists that your opponent can't kill.

Really interresting thread with lots of interresting ideas!

I can relate to not wanting to use certain models/units for whatever reasons and finding an alternative that better suits your style of play/fluff or whatever.

Reading your batreps it sometimes seem that it doesnt matter how good your tactics or armylists are... your dice rolls just arent good enough. And I do not think there's a cure for that.

Here's a few ideas (some of them mayhaps a bit crazy) just to mix things up a bit;

-What about infiltrating forwards sentries harker vets with 3 PG and LasCan in a sweet position to get a good cover save?

-What about bastonne vets with 3 PG and LasCan positioned away from the rest of your army to get different shooting angles and maybe get your opponent to spread out while using his BID to ensure hits even with your bad dice.

-What about taking the aegis defence line with Icarus LasCan as atleast some counter to fliers. Might not work every time but once in a while...

-What about (as suggested earlier) multiple LasCan HWS behind the aegis using GtG when targeted combined with two CCS or maybe Creed and use GBITF if they survive or use BID if you're targeting fliers since they're BS1 anyways that turn.

-What about a platoon in reserve with multiple LasCan HWS targeting fliers with BID on the turn they arrive? (If you're experiencing problems with them getting blown away before beeing able to shoot.) ((maybe combined with al'rahem?))

-What about a commissar Lord to keep your HWS on the table and making sure they succeed recieving orders?

See the problem with the heavy weapons squad is that they just don't have enough wounds to go around. It doesn't have much to do with their leadership so putting a Lord Commissar in a single heavy weapons squad isn't a great idea. What kills them is not running off the board generally, but the fact that it is basically a 6 wound unit with a 5+ save. Spamming them on the other hand is a different story. Say 5-6 HWSs.

Well, behind an aegis defence line while GtG they'd have a 2+ cover save and should be able to take about 36W before going down unless they take a couple of wounds and fail their Ld 7. The Commissar Lords 6" Ld 10 bubble should be able to help keeping them on the board.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Medusa with cammo and bastion breecher shells.

So, I'm kind of back and forth on these guys. On the one hand, yeah. Hella killing power against vehicles. On the other hand, they don't get barrage, so more problems with cover. I LOVE their Ap1, but I really don't love their small blast. I feel like it would handle like half of what I'm looking for, but not the other half. I feel like having multi-shot weapons is going to be more necessary unless I've got large blasts, but is a non-BB medusa worth taking?

I don't know, I feel so conflicted about this unit. I like it for obvious reasons, but I also don't like it for subtle ones.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Rather than Aegis, I've used bastion, with Company Command Squad (with cloaks). You're high enough up that flyers don't negate cover, so you're a lot safer to man that Quad gun/Icarius.

Don't you find bastions to just be death traps?

thedarksaint wrote:I've got a 2nd one, unpainted, that I just don't need. If you like the idea, I could actually mail you the thing, just to see what you do with it.

Hah! I'll always take free stuff, but I'm having a bit of a hard time seeing how useful it would be. I feel like my problem is that I'm not able to kill things, moreso than that I'm having a problem with durability and survival.

Gibblets wrote:S.Sentinels are actually a really good way to get armor in cover. 3 LC S.Sentinels with HK MIssles and Camo Netting in area cover can take a lot of incoming fire. Ofcourse depending on your luck, MMV.

You know, this is actually an interesting idea. I think I'd want to do it with armored sentinels more. It would be a LOT to pay for a few lascannons, but they would be pretty tough to displace, what with AV12 and with a 3+ cover save behind an aegis. Plus, they'd be able to hang back and score on scouring missions, and wouldn't be worthless in the rare close combat either.

I also like the idea because we're back in the world of multi-shot and something that can actually target fliers.

Aleinikov wrote:Not sure if you are ready to use Mech IG.

I'm starting to take an interest, but I'd be nowhere ready. I only have a few chimera hulls, and, knowing me, I'd need many, MANY more than that. Instead of mechvets, I'd probably use armored fists and mob the other side of the field. Need a lot of models for that, though.

Tony2BIG wrote:-What about a platoon in reserve with multiple LasCan HWS targeting fliers with BID on the turn they arrive?

Now that's actually an interesting idea too. Having a melta or a plasma reserve platoon that I just always start off the board. Hmmm...

WhiteWolf01 wrote:See the problem with the heavy weapons squad is that they just don't have enough wounds to go around.

Right, the main problem is that they're 3 scatterlaser or autocannon wounds away from being wiped out altogether, leadership or no. Spamming doesn't actually solve this problem, especially in a foot list where my opponents wouldn't have anything else worth shooting their heavy weapons against.

Tony2BIG wrote:Well, behind an aegis defence line while GtG they'd have a 2+ cover save and should be able to take about 36W before going down unless they take a couple of wounds and fail their Ld 7.

But this is a terrible idea. Unless I get orders, we're talking about spending 210 points to throw down one lascannon hit per turn. I might as well take vanquishers.

Furthermore, you have to spend a bunch of points on a lord commissar, who can only help SO many HWSs, and the cost quickly begins to escalate. If you're talking about proper spam, then you're running into problems finding cover for them all, or giving them good fire lanes. An aegis can help, but it won't solve the problem altogether, and unless those lascannon guys are at the front, I'm going to be giving my opponents their own 4+ cover save...

It's been said here before on this and other forums...the motto of the Imperial Guard is "If it's worth taking it's worth taking 3 of". I honestly think that part of your problem might be that you simply don't have "enough" of a single method of fighting. You have a few conscripts, but not enough to overwhelm their firepower. You have some rough riders, but not enough to ensure that some survive an enemy round of shooting. Same with sentinels...

I'm not advocating spam by any means here (though it might be the answer you're looking for), but simply suggesting that you have a unified way your army fights. For instance, if you want your army blasting away at 12" then forget lascannons and optimize everyone for rapid-fire/melta combat (rough riders, stormies, vets, demoliser, etc). If you like the feel of your troops pouring volleys of fire into the advancing enemy at 18"-24" then focus on your HWS (and basic guard in general) and hide behind an aegis line with some basilisks and LRBT for fire support. You want to make their army fight your ENTIRE army, not just pieces of it at a time. Another way to think about it is in terms of points; in a perfect world a unit could kill its points worth. Therefore, if you try to engage 600 pts of tanks with 200 pts of storm troopers it might go badly for you. Every unit has it's strengths and weaknesses, all I'm saying is to try and focus your strengths in one direction. Figure out how you want your army to fight, then read through your codex and pick what matches that style. You have quite a few options, and IMHO a lot of good ones have already been suggested.

I'm not quite as seasoned as a lot of these guys so I may be completely wrong here though.

Well, if your fighting some heavily armored units, I do have a solution. Take a Lord Commissar, and then take everything else as a HWS with lascannon, minus some minor blobs of infantry to hide for when you need to score. You will see dramatic improvements in your anti armor capabilities.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Well, if your fighting some heavily armored units, I do have a solution. Take a Lord Commissar, and then take everything else as a HWS with lascannon, minus some minor blobs of infantry to hide for when you need to score. You will see dramatic improvements in your anti armor capabilities.

Unless of course your opponent is able to spam guns with str:6 and above. Which pretty much every codex can. Also they're only guardsmen, with the LC you don't get BID.

And look at the cost. 3x lascannon HWSs and a lord commissar costs you a cool 385 points, which will quickly become 400 with any gear on the commissar. 400 points gets you 9 lascannons on very, very fragile chassis.

Meanwhile, consider that 400 points in scout sentinels gets you 8 lascannons, on a chassis that is immune to small arms fire, and can outflank, making them more survivable and do more damage. They can even take searchlights. In a contest between the two of these, I'd much rather take the sentinels.

I'd even much rather take 400 points of medusas as 3 AV12 vehicles is going to be a lot harder to kill than what will amount to 9 guardsmen, and they either splatcannon paladins or they at LEAST keep up with damage against vehicles.

 Ailaros wrote:


I'd even much rather take 400 points of medusas as 3 AV12 vehicles is going to be a lot harder to kill than what will amount to 9 guardsmen, and they either splatcannon paladins or they at LEAST keep up with damage against vehicles.

And deny FNP, ID obliterators and their melee version, nob bikers, regular bikers, and well, anything else without EW and t5 or less.

STR10 AP2 is tits.

Regarding the mech spam list -
I also am against adding flyers and allies to my army, since I feel that a guard army can handle everything on its own. I typically run 4 chimera plasma/melta vet squads and 2 hellhounds/banewolfs in my list, supported by 4-5 squads of guardsmen with AC or LC. The guardsmen hold the home objective while the chimeras usually rush out 1st or 2nd turn and start wrecking face. I keep everything cheap, and numerous. Upgrades will only take up space for more valuable SWs and HWs.

By the end of the game, most likely none of the chimeras will have survived, but there wont be much of an enemy left, while the surviving vets/guardsmen mop up and take objectives. I've found it to be very effective. It operates on the idea of taking not just 3 of everything, but 4 of everything, and being very aggressive.

I can say that although I've never directly dealt with flyer spam, the amount of fire from the chimeras, vets, and guard squads have been able to handle 1-2 flyer lists pretty easily. Tyranid MC lists with 5-6 MC have been troublesome, but I've found that the combination of the ridiculous amount of plasma/melta in the list (10 PG, 8 MG) and autocannons can handle them pretty well.

You don't find these big tough units just sorta waste their time killing guardsmen? I mean, they tend not to score and tanks don't contest. The other ones would feel like a waste dealing with 55 points of chimera blocking them or sandbagged for a turn fighting 50 points of guardsmen after getting getting close enough.

Mobility or finding ways to block/ move In tarpits can be rough for guard without the obvious inclusions. Maybe some allies could help. Blasts aren't cost effective vs MCs and high av.

CCS, camo, vox, lascannon, astropath, MoO

This unit it to help with orders for the bloob, as well bring it down has a two fold for this unit. MoO gets a reroll so you can assist and or try to off target a unit close to a vehicle. As well the lascannon will punch holes threw units with bs 4. On top of that you get the re roll sides as well as the plus 1 from the astropath. Camo to help the unit stay around as you can always find a spot for a small unit like this. Vox is a needed item because when your running a bloob you hate to fail an order...

5x storm troops, 2x melta guns, deep strike

Simple, drop in and wreck face for a unit that off on the side or something you need busted up.

CPS, auto cannon or lascannon and vox
auto and or las is fine either way. I normally set this unit off to the side to function on its on.

5x PS, 5x lascannon, 2x vox, commissar
5x lascannon up front because of base side. That way if something does assault you. You can almost certainly be in the 2" range of the big base with all your small bases. 2x vox in case somebody has a sinper, as well as the commissar to hold the unit together... 5x lascannon with reroll will be able to do what you need... You might think its over kill, but you will have that option to break this unit up as you see fit.. 3 PS 2PS, which gives you the option witht he two vox to split it even

Vet squad, Harker, 3x melta guns, chimera, out flank
Best all around unit, objective grabber, late game arrival, or placing a unit in the enemies deployment for bonus points etc.. If the chimera blows up, the guys in side with harker get a 3 plus I because of camo.. If the tank is still on the board, then just place your guys in a fashion that most of them are behind the chimera while the few are out in the open. IE your three melta guns ..

Vet squad, 3x plasma guns reserve
How many times I have watched that marine player come rolling up the board.. Then its plasma to the face and watch everything die....

3x sents with mutli lasers out flank
9 dice with 36" range, you should have np getting rear armour with this unit.-

LRBT hull lascannon
LRBT hull lascannon

Two tanks just driving around and taking out the enemy from range.. Battle cannon with 2d6 pick the highest plus a lascannon shot will assist in wrecking face...



Nuff fire power to kill MC/vehicles plus troop killing power pie plates to the face.

Edit,,

I have seen your list a few times and as several people have noted,, your list seem to be a little of everything. Putting a 50 man squad on the board is not something people like. They will attempt to shy away from it as best they can. Then again you will have the few that try to charge it only to find that first rank fire will cut them to shreads..

Note,,do not put a short range weapon in the 5x platoon squad. It will force your deployment set up so that you set closer which is a no no... range unit pounds the enemy into the ground via range......


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh ya camo on the tanks never hurts either. I normally run camo on my tanks because you can always find some type of terrian to work your tanks around. That or you can use your tank stacking them in a way to give cover to the ones behind them... I normally put chimera in front of my tanks to keep them at a 3 plus I...

Tarval wrote:

Vet squad, Harker, 3x melta guns, chimera, out flank
Best all around unit, objective grabber, late game arrival, or placing a unit in the enemies deployment for bonus points etc.. If the chimera blows up, the guys in side with harker get a 3 plus I because of camo.. If the tank is still on the board, then just place your guys in a fashion that most of them are behind the chimera while the few are out in the open. IE your three melta guns ..

Harker squads are for infiltrating killy stuff into ruins. Having a squad with camo and stealth in a chimera is ridiculous. Having a 200pt squad run at tanks with meltaguns is even more ridiculous. 1 Flamer and you're down 200 points.

3x sents with mutli lasers out flank
9 dice with 36" range, you should have np getting rear armour with this unit.

Except against any commander worth his salt with tank positioning.

And Multilasers? What? Even against AV10 rear armor, what; you'll get a couple glances on a transport and get shot off the board?

LRBT hull lascannon
LRBT hull lascannon

Two tanks just driving around and taking out the enemy from range.. Battle cannon with 2d6 pick the highest plus a lascannon shot will assist in wrecking face...

Lascannons have to snap shoot. A bs1 lascannon for 15 points is...well...I can't use those words here.

But it's bad.

Ok holy crap did I miss out on a thread (friggin night shift at amazon) I'll make a quick post and then read over the thread to see what i missed before I edit in relevant thoughts.

So to start, foot IG has ALWAYS had this problem, at least since I started playing back towards the end of 5th. Horde armies in general have problems with force concentration, but with IG I think we can dance around it better than orks or nids might. Simply put, IG lacks a deathstar unit of our own to go toe to toe with these often 500+ point facesmasher beatsticks. I found the best thing to do was to simply refuse to play their game. I tried to find a way to slow said deathstar down, and then feed it disposable units as I whittled it down. This is tricky though, and i agree there needs to be a better way of doing it.

My two solutions are tanks (leman russ variants) and elite infantry (stormtroopers, marbo, vets) Tanks are pretty straightforward, you need a big gun to kill a big threat. Demolishers and Executioners are the only two I'd even look at for this, punisher gets an honorable mention though. The plasma storm executioner in particular has proven its worth several times because while an enemy can spread, most situations where a foot guard runs into them they cant (just deepstruck, fresh out of a combat, transport blew up, etc) I havent done demolishers yet out of laziness, but they'll soon be tried as well.

As for infantry, I think you should give combining you "duravets" style a try with the conscripts idea. Simply put, a core of cheap infantry in platoons backed up with some kily vet squads mixed in to provide more firepower. If you think about it, vets have firepower, but dont have the numbers to keep you alive. Conscripts give you numbers, but no killing power. By combining the two ideas, one could theoretically have the best of both worlds. Tons of cheap scoring troops with thunderheads of high firepower hidden within. Keeping the vets hiding in ruins or near the back of your line will help keep them alive, while providing even more infantry and keeping up target saturation. If your oponent ignores them, he risks losing his heavy hitters to cheap vets. If he focuses them down, the rest of your line is given the time it needs to reposition andtget revenge. Vets in this point become a slightly more defensive unit, who wait till the midgame to break out and try to snag objectives. Harker's camo cloak vet squad is awesome at this. I've been infiltrating them into a ruin halfway up the field to slow the opponent down and they've been working wonders. Stormtroopers and Marbo are no brainers of course, which leaves me with the duravets themselves. I'd try carapace and camo cloaks and see which works best, but simply hide them from main areas of fire and run them out when the enemy is stupid enough to get close. x3 plasma/melta with demolitions would work great, and since chenkov is chilling nearby they may even have stubborn and be able to charge MC's to wreck their face in close combat with meltabombs.

MrMoustaffa reminded me of a combo I have in mind when I can max out Force Slots. 3xConscripts with SITNW, each wave rushes and is accompanied by a SWS 3xDemo Charges. For a total of 6 trios of counter charge firworks. (Is it possible to flood the board with enough conscripts to pen in the enemy?)

Another potentially fun but untried unit is a ChimeraHF/HF with 3x Demo Charges. If the Chimera survives the carnage it can pick up some slack with the double HF, although it is 150 pts. It's up to you if that can be as effective as melta stormies for 105 pts.

Maybe even the Str8 no armor save attacks of Techpriests and Servitors might be useful to your army 6 str 8 attacks on 11AV give you 50% to pen +16% to glance. Melta bombs for the techpriest are an option.

I think it was suggested, but how much of your army can start off the board? The more the merrier. It would suck to take Big Toys and have no one to shoot at for 2-3 turns, big waste.

Sigh. I was going to leave this one alone, but the amount of bad advice since my last post is just driving me insane. Anyway:

I play armies like the ones Ailaros is having trouble with: light on troops (veteran squads that are often used as suicide plasma delivery), heavy on firepower units. It's great at killing stuff. For example, last game I played saw almost 800 points of my 2000 point army destroyed or immobilized out of the fight before it could do anything, and I still came close on kill points with my opponent commenting on how frighteningly effective my units were at wiping his off the table. On the other hand, it usually struggles to have scoring units alive and on objectives at the end of the game, with even the games I win being decided 1-0 on objectives. So, this means you have two realistic ways of opposing the army:

1) Take your losses, and win the objective game. In 5/6 missions you can take horrible losses but still win as long as you have more objectives, so focus on killing the firepower list's scoring units and protecting your own. It takes a certain amount of mental toughness to take losses and not give up, but you can often win even when you're way behind on surviving units. However, there is one problem here: Ailaros has tried this approach and it has failed. Even against an army with effectively zero scoring units it failed completely, so it is not a viable plan anymore.

2) Beat them at their own game. Bring more firepower, pray you get the first turn, and wipe them off the table. You'll have a bloody and decisive game, but if you're the better player with the better list you should win more than you lose.

Since #1 has been tried and conclusively rejected, this leaves option #2 as the only choice. So, what does this mean for list design?

1) Every unit must have maximum firepower for its points and FOC slot. Forget durability, forget scoring, forget anything that isn't killing the enemy as efficiently as possible. Don't bother wasting time on anything that isn't immediately and decisively affecting the game, or providing a point-efficient boost to units that are (transports, divination psykers, etc). If you waste those points and FOC slots you won't have enough firepower to fight back.

2) Every unit must have immediate impact. There can be occasional exceptions for things that stay in reserve to deliver a more effective alpha strike, but if you're holding back units defensively you're doing it wrong. A unit that is hiding out of the fight is effectively dead without your opponent firing a single shot.

3) As many units as possible should be effective against multiple target types. When you have to take on a wide range of spam types with a single list you need to have multi-role killers. Having three different specialists to deal with tanks, flyers, and hordes means that in each game 2/3 of your specialists aren't doing anything useful and you won't have enough firepower. This is why rejecting Vendettas and Sabre guns hurts so much, they have good point efficient firepower but losing the only units that combine effective AA and and anti-tank into the same unit is crippling. Single-target firepower can be replaced with other units, duality is rare and needs to be used wherever you can get it.

4) Every unit must be at least as efficient as the one your opponent is bringing. If you both spend X points but your opponent gets better firepower for those points you aren't going to win. For example, if your opponent is bringing Vendettas bringing LC Sentinels is a bad idea, since your Sentinels cost more and do less. Your Sentinels can't match up effectively against the Vendettas (no skyfire), and they can't kill your opponent's other units as fast as the Vendettas will kill your other units. No matter how you look at it, it's a losing situation for you. While there may be alternatives to bringing Vendettas of your own, they certainly aren't going to be a unit which is just plain worse than your opponent's Vendettas, and you need to leave the LC Sentinels at home and look elsewhere in the codex for something to spend those points on.

5) You have to accept losses. There is no "stay safe" option against a maximum-firepower list. You have to accept that your units are going to die, and not get lured into violating rules #1-4 to take defensive upgrades to protect them.


So, what this means for units that have been posted recently:

Conscripts are garbage. They eat up points (especially with SITNW), and offer essentially zero firepower against the threats a maximum-firepower list uses. If you brought conscripts, save yourself the effort of deploying them and just leave them in your case, you'll get the same results.

Infantry squads with heavy weapons are garbage. For every useful gun you take you have to spend 50 points on worthless bodies. You can not match a maximum-firepower list when you're wasting that many points per gun.

Static CCS with heavy weapons are garbage. You have a 50% chance to give each of two HWS an order which adds 50% more firepower. A LC HWS, the most expensive static unit you can give an order to, costs 105 points. This means that your minimum 50 point CCS is adding barely 50 points worth of firepower across two squads, IF you can use BiD or FOMT against a given target, so just buy more HWS and use the CCS to deliver melta/plasma.

MoO is garbage. See the part about a static CCS being garbage? A MoO has terrible accuracy even when you get to use it, and requires you to take a static CCS. Spend the 30 points on more melta/plasma.

Duravets are garbage. 30 points for an upgrade that gives a slightly better armor save? No. Spend the points on more guns, or demolitions (which gives you a weapon that can remove half a marine squad in one shot).

Duravents hiding behind other units are really garbage. Taking a bad unit and keeping it out of the fight for several turns doesn't make it better. Veteran squads deliver melta/plasma, they don't hide.

Techpriests, especially melee techpriests, are garbage. They have no ranged weapon, so they contribute nothing. Don't take them.

Harker squads with camo cloaks are garbage. Harker alone is semi-decent for outflanking a melta/plasma squad into something vulnerable, but camping in ruins with a 2+ save is a waste of a unit.

Now, for some good units:

Medusas and Demolishers are awesome. They're one of the only multi-role killers you're allowing yourself to take: STR 10 AP 2 kills elite infantry, kills characters and death stars, kills vehicles, hurts MCs, and even does decent damage to hordes. The only thing it doesn't kill is flyers.

HWS are necessary for foot lists without FW. So what if they're fragile, they're the only way you're ever going to get enough weapons on the table if you reject FW units (specifically Sabre guns). You won't like them, but any other way of bringing heavy weapons just costs too much per gun.

Veteran squads are awesome. 3x melta/plasma, maybe a demo charge. Efficient and deadly.

Melta/plasma CCS are awesome. Even more efficient and deadly than veteran squads, and scoring doesn't matter.

Chimeras are good. They deliver your guns and add some firepower in the process. Every unit should have a Chimera to ensure target saturation.



So there's a good starting point. The situation is probably hopeless without Vendettas or FW units (mostly for the AA/anti-tank duality problem), but at least you'll die trying more effectively than if you throw away points on bad units.

Your statement would be true if the question had only two answers. It does not.

For your answer to the initial questions you point out a number of good logical points. If the OP wants to play a maximum fire list then this is a good start to the decisions he will need to make.

However the alternate path is kill the scoring and mission critical units and win with victory points. This requires a mix list of durable units and enough firepower to kill scoring units and the units that can wipe out your scorers.

I agree that HWS are probably a significant part of solving the OP's problem of being under whelming when he needs to overwhelm with fire power. These units are much better per points in term of damage output than the infantry squads. SINW conscripts and camo cloak vets are two very different answers to durable scoring units. (Mech vets work pretty good too they just are a whole different beast and require a hefty investment in chimera)

Really the OP will probably not be able to deal with both fliers and MC/AV without FW, vendettas, or allies. He can however mitigate one of those enemy times making its contribution trivial and double down on the threats that will then threaten him.

There are a number of ideas here that could help.
-Saturate high AV can work as most fliers do not get enough turns shooting to finish all the tanks IG can bring and fliers are the only thing a demolisher can't handle.

-Saturate body count works great if you want to ignore most fliers as the vast majority of fliers are AV specialists or geared toward such. This is however frustrating as your strategies will almost always end up being reactionary.

-Saturate AV 12 chimera...see above post. It works pretty well unless your opponent hits the outer rim of your parking lot first turn.

Notice though that normally the response to target saturation is saturation of your own. You could however come up with some new strategy and shock us all...if you could find a strategy that made ratlings, rough riders, armored sentinels, and dura vets into a tournament winning army I would acknowledge you god of 40K and make a sacrifice to your idol (cause that would be awesome) then rip your idea off...sorry.

Sorry for the text wall.

 Cursed Dice wrote:
I wish I had the luck everyone else seems to have with artillery. With the new rules not allowing subtraction of BS for LOS,

That's the opposite of how Barrage works. You only don't subtract your BS if the target is out of LoS or within minimum range.

Just wanted to say I respect the no forgeworld stuff.

Vendettas = OP

Have a nice day

Voxick wrote:

Vendettas = OP

Lovely contribution. It seems to me that this thread has put forward examples as to why the Vendetta isn't op. The unit itself, without the context of a codex sure as hell looks over powered, but when you see that Ailaros is having major trouble dealing with heavy fire-power lists using the IG codex, and no Vendettas, it makes the Vendetta look necessary.
If there is a huge problem in the IG codex that can only be fixed with a Vendetta (as it currently seems, because no one has provided a good substitute except for FW) then I'd say the Vend is important in balancing the codex as a whole.

It is saddening that the codex seemingly relies on one unit to make it work against heavy fire-power lists, including Av13/14 and fliers, but it makes IG great, plus is a cool looking model.

I don't use FW units mainly due to being introduced into 40k before FW was considered official (and the prohibitive cost). So I feel like I'm cheating, although for no real reason. Yes that's right, FW is official. I have no problem playing against them, just like I have no problem playing against other 40k units. It's all the same.

I wouldn't say vendettas are over powered. Just very useful in the current meta where you play. I was about to type how that I don't use forge world either but I remembered I got these guys when I was getting a Christmas present for my Chaos crazy brother.


Really I hated hoping I got everything I ordered. Missing sprues, miss-casts, bent or broke etc etc having to send it back and wait again would take way longer than I would like. For instance these guys, none of them fit on their legs, none. The cables were all bent too close for it to fit and it was too thin and weak for the warm water bend back trick. Still looks good on these guys but I probably got lucky and don't like pushing my luck. If I could go to the store and look at what I was spending my cash on and see everything was accounted for I would do the sabre platforms and vultures.

Anyway I think we hit on some great tactics/units to try and I would like to ask other players besides Ailaros on here to try some of them as well and let us know what works well and with what. Like maybe the melta rough riders work ok but not well with sentinels.

The arguments in this thread are silly.
FW are acceptable for pick up games, just ask your opponent. If they utterly refuse than they are probably square and socially inept, even if not just find another opponent. Geez. Have fun people.

Better use of cover. More cover. More attention to placement of cover and terrain. Fortifications.

More heavy weapons. More HWTs. Better leadership to improve orders. Another CCS for more orders.. Veterans with special weapons, maybe harker with infiltrate. Creed or counts-as for outflank and increased order potential. Maybe a mix of infantry platoon and chenkov for waves.

Suicide stormies. Lots of krak grenades. Artillery. Scout sentinels mid field in cover with stealth. More vehicles.
There are plenty of options. You just need to find a zen, bro. Change up tactics, even. Learn well young grasshopper!

 portugus wrote:


Really I hated hoping I got everything I ordered. Missing sprues, miss-casts, bent or broke etc etc having to send it back and wait again would take way longer than I would like. For instance these guys, none of them fit on their legs, none. The cables were all bent too close for it to fit and it was too thin and weak for the warm water bend back trick. Still looks good on these guys but I probably got lucky and don't like pushing my luck. If I could go to the store and look at what I was spending my cash on and see everything was accounted for I would do the sabre platforms and vultures.
.

Sounds like you got unlucky, actually. I have thousands of dollars worth of resin, and I find that its usually plastic kits that I have the blaring problems with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voxick wrote:
Just wanted to say I respect the no forgeworld stuff.

Vendettas = OP

Have a nice day

Welcome to dakka, where we prefer that you know what you're talking about before you talk about it.

-Captain

 ansacs wrote:
However the alternate path is kill the scoring and mission critical units and win with victory points. This requires a mix list of durable units and enough firepower to kill scoring units and the units that can wipe out your scorers.

This is is why reading the entire OP is important: he's already tried this approach. It failed. Utterly. Even against an army with two naked veteran squads, the absolute minimum troops you can possibly put into a legal IG army and normally a suicidally weak choice, he was unable to win the objective game. That's the most favorable possible situation for the "focus on the mission" approach, and it still didn't work. It's time to concede that it isn't a viable plan and move on.

-Saturate high AV can work as most fliers do not get enough turns shooting to finish all the tanks IG can bring and fliers are the only thing a demolisher can't handle.

I'm not sure where you get that idea from. If you exclude FW units as the OP wants to do, the useful flyers are the Vendetta, Stormraven, and Doom Scythe. All of them have powerful anti-tank weapons that can kill a Leman Russ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CaseyColt wrote:
Better leadership to improve orders.

Waste of points. Instead of spending points on LD boosts, spend points on more guns.

Another CCS for more orders.

Orders are not efficient. The only reason to bring a second CCS is to give it 4x melta/plasma and kill stuff.

Creed or counts-as for outflank and increased order potential.

Way too expensive. Buy more guns.

Maybe a mix of infantry platoon and chenkov for waves.

Complete waste of points. Buy more guns.

Lots of krak grenades.

Will never get in range to do anything. Buy more guns.

Scout sentinels mid field in cover with stealth.

Breaks the "don't bring units that are weaker than what your opponent is bringing" rule, costs way too many points, and generally sucks.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:


I'd even much rather take 400 points of medusas as 3 AV12 vehicles is going to be a lot harder to kill than what will amount to 9 guardsmen, and they either splatcannon paladins or they at LEAST keep up with damage against vehicles.

And deny FNP, ID obliterators and their melee version, nob bikers, regular bikers, and well, anything else without EW and t5 or less.

STR10 AP2 is tits.

oblits come in T4 4++ and T5 5++ varieties.

I would be surprised if you ever saw a melee version of a oblitorator in a real game. Comically bad rules.

are BEHHHHNBLAAAAADES in the question?

Baneblades are Apocalypse units.

I think it is possible to use a super heavy as your second detachment in games over 2k. However, it would be bad form to spring such a thing on an opponent and expect them to "have to" play you.

For general gaming, no you can't use things like baneblades.

 Trickstick wrote:
I think it is possible to use a super heavy as your second detachment in games over 2k. However, it would be bad form to spring such a thing on an opponent and expect them to "have to" play you.

It isn't. You and your opponent could agree to play a special game where they have two FOCs and you have one FOC with a superheavy tank, but that's no different than any other house rule or custom scenario. There's nothing in the actual rules of the game that allows it, in fact the rules even specifically state that superheavy tanks are not part of normal 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
I think it is possible to use a super heavy as your second detachment in games over 2k. However, it would be bad form to spring such a thing on an opponent and expect them to "have to" play you.

It isn't. You and your opponent could agree to play a special game where they have two FOCs and you have one FOC with a superheavy tank, but that's no different than any other house rule or custom scenario. There's nothing in the actual rules of the game that allows it, in fact the rules even specifically state that superheavy tanks are not part of normal 40k.

Oh yes, that was pretty much what I was trying to say. There are rules for it but then you get into the whole "standard 40k" argument spiral, which is best avoided unless you want several pages of pointlessness.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 portugus wrote:


Really I hated hoping I got everything I ordered. Missing sprues, miss-casts, bent or broke etc etc having to send it back and wait again would take way longer than I would like. For instance these guys, none of them fit on their legs, none. The cables were all bent too close for it to fit and it was too thin and weak for the warm water bend back trick. Still looks good on these guys but I probably got lucky and don't like pushing my luck. If I could go to the store and look at what I was spending my cash on and see everything was accounted for I would do the sabre platforms and vultures.
.

Sounds like you got unlucky, actually. I have thousands of dollars worth of resin, and I find that its usually plastic kits that I have the blaring problems with.

Thanks that actually makes me feel better about buying FW.

 portugus wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 portugus wrote:


Really I hated hoping I got everything I ordered. Missing sprues, miss-casts, bent or broke etc etc having to send it back and wait again would take way longer than I would like. For instance these guys, none of them fit on their legs, none. The cables were all bent too close for it to fit and it was too thin and weak for the warm water bend back trick. Still looks good on these guys but I probably got lucky and don't like pushing my luck. If I could go to the store and look at what I was spending my cash on and see everything was accounted for I would do the sabre platforms and vultures.
.

Sounds like you got unlucky, actually. I have thousands of dollars worth of resin, and I find that its usually plastic kits that I have the blaring problems with.

Thanks that actually makes me feel better about buying FW.

And any problem I've had with FW's casts, they've replaced, without hassle.

TheCaptain wrote:STR10 AP2 is tits.

BBs?

Lucre wrote:You don't find these big tough units just sorta waste their time killing guardsmen? I mean, they tend not to score and tanks don't contest.

The problem is one of damage output. If my opponent is bringing a pair of ultratesla barges, they can mow down enough guardsmen per turn to cause serious problems. I'd shoot at them first, but scythebarges are an even higher priority. That or I'm talking about punishers or something with torrent, etc.

I generally can take casualties pretty well, but 6th ed has wound up with me reaching my breaking point much earlier in the games. I'm starting to suspect that more firepower, not more durability is what's required here.

Tarval wrote:5x PS, 5x lascannon, 2x vox, commissar

Not really interested in blobs anymore. It's too easy to kill the commissars now. Running combined squads is now actually risky, and not necessarily better than keeping them MSU.

Griddlelol wrote: If there is a huge problem in the IG codex that can only be fixed with a Vendetta (as it currently seems, because no one has provided a good substitute except for FW) then I'd say the Vend is important in balancing the codex as a whole.

Which is why this thread in the first place. If the guard codex is so weak that you must have a particular single unit to stand a chance, then my gut reaction is to lay low with guard until they get a stronger codex.

TheCaptain wrote:Sounds like you got unlucky, actually. I have thousands of dollars worth of resin, and I find that its usually plastic kits that I have the blaring problems with.

You've had problems with plastic kits?

I didn't think that was possible.

 Ailaros wrote:

Tarval wrote:5x PS, 5x lascannon, 2x vox, commissar

Not really interested in blobs anymore. It's too easy to kill the commissars now. Running combined squads is now actually risky, and not necessarily better than keeping them MSU.

So would you suggest running 3 ten man squads with Melta/lascannon as opposed to one 30 man blob?

MSUs are great, it give more targets to your opponent. I go with squads and it works well. That big, obvious blob is now many more squads easily hidden by terrain and it does give more independent targets to shoot down, so scattering the opposing firepower.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:STR10 AP2 is tits.

BBs?

Nah, just the regular medusa tank.

BB's are hurt too much by being small blast, imo. Makes them too one-purpose. The only thing multi-purpose about guard is our tanks, and I think the Medusa fills this pretty darn well.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:STR10 AP2 is tits.

BBs?

Nah, just the regular medusa tank.

BB's are hurt too much by being small blast, imo. Makes them too one-purpose. The only thing multi-purpose about guard is our tanks, and I think the Medusa fills this pretty darn well.

Wouldn't the increased range on the BB shells make it worth it, seeing as the Medusa is on a chimera chassis and is open toped?

 Happygrunt wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:STR10 AP2 is tits.

BBs?

Nah, just the regular medusa tank.

BB's are hurt too much by being small blast, imo. Makes them too one-purpose. The only thing multi-purpose about guard is our tanks, and I think the Medusa fills this pretty darn well.

Wouldn't the increased range on the BB shells make it worth it, seeing as the Medusa is on a chimera chassis and is open toped?

Small blast makes it so you can potentially be hitting one guy a shot. And you better believe that a good player will be spacing his stuff out if he sees a medusa across the table.

BB's are good for killing vehicles, but not much else.

Regular Medusa will do both. Tack it behind some cover/ruins and it will be fine.

Thought about sentinels as heavy weapon platforms? You can magnetize them so that you can equip them for whatever army you're facing.

Blob army? No sweat, take flamers and use "move through cover" 240 points of 6 heavy (armored) flamers (or Autocannons)

Mech Army? No sweat, outflank with just 300 points of anti armor and take out an entire column the first turn with 6 lascannons.

Air Army?

Why not take Hydras? 225 points and 12 Anti-aircraft shot's per turn?

I still don't get why no vendetta's though, they're in the codex.

 ENOZONE wrote:
I still don't get why no vendetta's though, they're in the codex.

Well, there are a few reasons. I know why I don't run mine so much, although I only have one vendetta:

1. They are expensive models.
2. They are harder to transport than most other units.
3. There is a quite a lot of dislike between Guard and Navy in the fluff. Not really a reason I suppose, but I have my Guard hating Navy and by BFG Navy hating Guard.

Mainly I just find them hard to transport though, they have a high size/point ratio.

 ENOZONE wrote:
Thought about sentinels as heavy weapon platforms? You can magnetize them so that you can equip them for whatever army you're facing.

Blob army? No sweat, take flamers and use "move through cover" 240 points of 6 heavy (armored) flamers (or Autocannons)

Mech Army? No sweat, outflank with just 300 points of anti armor and take out an entire column the first turn with 6 lascannons.

Air Army?

Why not take Hydras? 225 points and 12 Anti-aircraft shot's per turn?

"List tailor and you'll do fine!"

Are you serious?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
Thought about sentinels as heavy weapon platforms? You can magnetize them so that you can equip them for whatever army you're facing.

Blob army? No sweat, take flamers and use "move through cover" 240 points of 6 heavy (armored) flamers (or Autocannons)

Mech Army? No sweat, outflank with just 300 points of anti armor and take out an entire column the first turn with 6 lascannons.

Air Army?

Why not take Hydras? 225 points and 12 Anti-aircraft shot's per turn?

"List tailor and you'll do fine!"

Are you serious?

In his defense, from what it looks like a lot of the opponents Ailaros plays tend to list tailor towards his lists seeing that he has his theme and sticks to it. Look at his most recent game. 4 punisher tanks? Really? That just screams list tailoring. Still, I guess it comes down to your own belief of whether or not two wrongs make a right.

I usually take 3 executioners ( 15 plasma cannon spam will kill marines and make blob/hoards think again)
3 hydras for the aa fun
and plenty of LC armed sentinals for armour sniping. ( I've yet to lose a game since playing with this) add infantry to taste.

Its not overly strong if you have to go and take an objective by force, it really is more a case of sit on what you have while using your long range guns to deny your opponent.

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
In his defense, from what it looks like a lot of the opponents Ailaros plays tend to list tailor towards his lists seeing that he has his theme and sticks to it. Look at his most recent game. 4 punisher tanks? Really? That just screams list tailoring. Still, I guess it comes down to your own belief of whether or not two wrongs make a right.

I'll quote Ailaros from his battle report thread:

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, no, this list is not tailored. The guy doesn't play guard, he plays punishers. It's his schtick.

So just a coincidence really.

Guess I missed that part. It's still a terrible coincidence...

 jimbolina25 wrote:
I usually take 3 executioners ( 15 plasma cannon spam will kill marines and make blob/hoards think again)
3 hydras for the aa fun
and plenty of LC armed sentinals for armour sniping. ( I've yet to lose a game since playing with this) add infantry to taste.

Its not overly strong if you have to go and take an objective by force, it really is more a case of sit on what you have while using your long range guns to deny your opponent.

I love this list if it was not for the fact that, I blow up my own executioners far faster with sponsons than the enemy does .

Seems as though the OP is just really stubborn by getting tabled by armies that counter his. If he doesn't change his list to at least attempt to stand up against them, what's the point? I didn't say do it in tournaments, just in cases where the game is no longer fun to play (and you're not willing to shell out 700 dollars for vendettas and executioners.)

 ENOZONE wrote:
Seems as though the OP is just really stubborn by getting tabled by armies that counter his. If he doesn't change his list to at least attempt to stand up against them, what's the point? I didn't say do it in tournaments, just in cases where the game is no longer fun to play (and you're not willing to shell out 700 dollars for vendettas and executioners.)

Well yeah, Ailaros is stubborn; welcome to Dakka.

But there are still some options inside his criteria. Not great ones, but they're there.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:STR10 AP2 is tits.

BBs?

Nah, just the regular medusa tank.

BB's are hurt too much by being small blast, imo. Makes them too one-purpose. The only thing multi-purpose about guard is our tanks, and I think the Medusa fills this pretty darn well.

Wouldn't the increased range on the BB shells make it worth it, seeing as the Medusa is on a chimera chassis and is open toped?

Small blast makes it so you can potentially be hitting one guy a shot. And you better believe that a good player will be spacing his stuff out if he sees a medusa across the table.

BB's are good for killing vehicles, but not much else.

Regular Medusa will do both. Tack it behind some cover/ruins and it will be fine.

I agree on leaving the BB at home.
But it would be fun to run 1 or 2 with BB if you knew you would be facing a Bastion!
Like a one off, not all the time.

 alarmingrick wrote:


I agree on leaving the BB at home.
But it would be fun to run 1 or 2 with BB if you knew you would be facing a Bastion!
Like a one off, not all the time.

I can agree.

I think the BB definitely has a place; which is in an artillery squadron of three in an Apoc game.

It will kill some structure; be super cool, and everyone will laugh over beers about how badly you overkilled that building.

But that's it for the BB. That's its day of glory.

I tried my best to come up with quirky and unusaul ways to solve your problem. But the short of it is the only unit that will do what you need in a cost effective (points) way are Vendettas.

Sure it can suck to more or less have to use a certain unit in the codex to remain competitive, but the same could be said for Veterans. Without them you lose a lot of effectiveness.

 Ailaros wrote:

As for an aegis, I tried it and wasn't impressed. Fliers shoot over aegises, and a single interceptor+skyfire weapon isn't doing much to them. I am starting to get somewhat tempted by it again, but that's only because I've been playing with stupid small amounts of terrain recently (and at tournaments, which never have anywhere close to enough).

How do they shoot over it? if you put like 5 guys up right against the wall from one squad how does the vendetta shoot over as the infantry are pretty much covered and Fliers have a 45degree arc when firing left and right as well as up or down so if the fliers right over your troops they will not be able to hit your troops. and thats the same for chimeras just put troops around them. Leman russes probably wont get cover but you really have to look and verify what gets save the aegis is wonderful and will really help your troops and that quad using interceptor to drop a flier before it shoots is one less unit of your thats getting shot at and if your opponent isnt running fliers and a deathstar unit that quad gun will just add saves those units have to make.

Weight of fire is a very reliable way of killing a deathstar unit as well as some marines as I have found out.

If you have trouble with marines lists run LRBT, Yea i love them but seriously they work. s8 ap3 only allows plague marines a 5+FNP. The tank will also work wonders against horde armies as it should deal enough wounds to a horde to make it take a moral test and take out quite a bit of units to keep them at bay. If your advancing against your opponent then take demolishers even better than the LRBT just shorter range.

As for flier spam to be honest there really isnt an army out there yet that can really stop it. The vendetta spam is obviously a way to stop it but I dont find that as very competitive against anything other than a air cron list. But the quad gun is awesome and massed heavy weapons with Bring it Down will help you a little more.

Have your tanks focus on ground units and your infantry squads fire at fliers and if your against a death star army just blast the dakka out of it because that is how ive brought down death stars.

Forge World chapter approved units are going more and more mainstream with more gt allowing them. One big reason it's not getting a lot of flak is pretty much everyone can ally with IG for some sabres which provide inexpensive effective air defense.

The other answer is to sell your soul to the dark gods. In return we can augment your ig with a unit of plague bearers, flamers, and screamers. Deamons and foot guard go together like peanut butter and jelly. Keep us in mind and try it out sometime, unlike the Inquisition we're open to everyone 24/7 even on the emperor's birthday.

To be honest, saw 7 pages, didn't read them all, (forgive me if these have already been thrown out there) but thought to ad some quick guard options.

First, if you are dead set against the defense line and quad gun, a hydra can work well. With no intercept rule, it can be a pain if your not facing any flyers, but it's cheap (75 pts) is twin linked (so still may hit once or twice) and worse comes to worse, if it's got a hull heavy flamer and there are no enemy flyers, use it as an annoying mobile heavy flamer/moving cover.

The second Option (and personal favorite) is that guardsmen are made all the more amazing by grenades, the new rules for grenades, combat, and glancing, means that the humble crack grenade can make a blob reliably eat up a leman Russ in combat. Ive seen Al'rahem foot platoons spell doom to many a backfield heavy support unit. Also seen vets with demos mob land raiders. (if it's got a tail pipe, stick a grenade in it)

The third is the good ol' mantacore option for lots of high strength templates. (works well against the all flyer lists for a turn 1 massacre)

Oh, and don't leave home with out your Officer of the Fleet.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Forge World chapter approved units are going more and more mainstream with more gt allowing them. One big reason it's not getting a lot of flak is pretty much everyone can ally with IG for some sabres which provide inexpensive effective air defense.

The other answer is to sell your soul to the dark gods. In return we can augment your ig with a unit of plague bearers, flamers, and screamers. Deamons and foot guard go together like peanut butter and jelly. Keep us in mind and try it out sometime, unlike the Inquisition we're open to everyone 24/7 even on the emperor's birthday.

Which GT is allowing them? The only one I can think of is MAYBE TSHFT.

That is another good note! if you are having problems with fliers go with the Officer of the Fleet! He will delay your opponents reserves and if you have the quad you should be able to pick off a flier each turn. If I recall correctly I believe they are armor 11(the crons as im refering too). Theres been times where I ran 2 vendettas and my opponent didnt even have anything that delayed reserves and 1 of them came in on turn 3 and the other wasn until turn 4(was depressing).

And for each turn you delay your opponent that is another turn you have units that live from an air assault. Couldnt think of a better defence against fliers aside from vendetta so I believe this would be your best bet.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Forge World chapter approved units are going more and more mainstream with more gt allowing them. One big reason it's not getting a lot of flak is pretty much everyone can ally with IG for some sabres which provide inexpensive effective air defense.

The other answer is to sell your soul to the dark gods. In return we can augment your ig with a unit of plague bearers, flamers, and screamers. Deamons and foot guard go together like peanut butter and jelly. Keep us in mind and try it out sometime, unlike the Inquisition we're open to everyone 24/7 even on the emperor's birthday.

Which GT is allowing them? The only one I can think of is MAYBE TSHFT.

The Bay Area Open is allowing and that's one of the biggest (if not the biggest) tournament on the West Coast. There have been a few other recent tournaments (Comikaze) that have allowed them and most people that went agree that the world did not end by playing with forge world units. Most of the units are actually not that great rules wise. Others like Sabre platforms are pretty much available to everyone due to allies.

Ok guardsman Marbo is almost always great at killing stuff. Against any tank with an armor value of ten in the rear he has a fair chance of just killing it. Otherwise send him after some troops. A Defense line with the a quad gun is a 25 dollar add on that will do nothing but good for you. The manticore has a fair chance of doing damage to any tank and if they have a rear armor of ten a hit can just auto pin for you if you place the template right and it can shoot over buildings letting you set up a building to hide it behind in deployment. Us your foot sloggers and the wall to form a shield for it and with camo netting it can get a three up cover easy against most stuff. Taking a vet squad with harken and lots of melta with the demo doctrine can just walk onto the field and kill just about anything within twelve inches of the board edge then help take an objective for you. I have used all of these things in my guard for most games and have rarely been disappointed with them. But really one of your best answers to air is either a hydra a vendetta of a quad gun and the quad gun is the cheapest to buy.

Also why all the forge world hate. If your not playing tourneys why would you even care if someone else wanted to play with different types of TOY SOLDIERS then normal so long as they are not being a jerk about it. Are you desperate to win or just made you can't afford them. I do not own any forge world stuff but that is only because I am far to broke to afford the stuff I would like. I have played against some forge world stuff and if anything I though my official guard units were the far more broken stuff in play. But enough of me adding my five cents. Carry on.

 Ailaros wrote:
Which is why this thread in the first place. If the guard codex is so weak that you must have a particular single unit to stand a chance, then my gut reaction is to lay low with guard until they get a stronger codex.

It has nothing to do with the IG codex being weak:

1) The core of the problem is the same one that applies to everyone: AA units are rare. GW hasn't bothered to update the codices with them, so if you rule out FW's attempt to give each army AA then you're left with very few options no matter what army you play. In fact, IG are lucky in that they have two options, the Hydra AND the Vendetta, even if in 6th the Hydra is just too weak to be a viable option.

2) Sometimes you just have only one or two units that fill a specific role. Do you feel that the IG codex is weak because the only dedicated transport option is the Chimera, so you have to have Chimeras to stand a chance as a mech player? Do you feel that the codex is weak because rough riders are your only fast countercharge unit? Just like those single options aren't a sign of a weak codex, it isn't a sign of a weak codex when there's only one unit that combines effective AA and anti-tank shooting, especially given problem #1.

3) It's your personal self-imposed limits that create the "Vendetta or nothing" problem in the first place. GW has given you other options (Sabre guns are an obvious "let's give the foot guard players a huge gift and make them work in 6th" unit), but when you start rejecting options you shouldn't be surprised when you come to a point where you've rejected all but the last remaining option. And then when you reject it too you shouldn't be surprised when you don't have any options left.


So, reject Vendettas and FW and declare you'd rather quit playing IG than use either, but you aren't going to have any better luck with another army. You're going to find yourself with the exact same problem, you'll have a mandatory unit that you have to take.

You've had problems with plastic kits?

I didn't think that was possible.

Clearly you've never played Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Castitas wrote:
First, if you are dead set against the defense line and quad gun, a hydra can work well. With no intercept rule, it can be a pain if your not facing any flyers, but it's cheap (75 pts) is twin linked (so still may hit once or twice) and worse comes to worse, if it's got a hull heavy flamer and there are no enemy flyers, use it as an annoying mobile heavy flamer/moving cover.

Hydras are garbage in 6th. They're a single-purpose unit that isn't even very good at its single purpose. STR 7 on an AV 12/10/10 platform with no interceptor means that your Hydra is probably dead before it can shoot, and even when it gets to shoot it isn't all that effective against AV 12 flyers (the ones you're most scared of). And then if there aren't any flyers the lack of interceptor means that you can't shoot effectively at ground targets, so you just wasted 225 points. Wasting 225 points is now how you win against maximum-firepower lists.

The second Option (and personal favorite) is that guardsmen are made all the more amazing by grenades, the new rules for grenades, combat, and glancing, means that the humble crack grenade can make a blob reliably eat up a leman Russ in combat. Ive seen Al'rahem foot platoons spell doom to many a backfield heavy support unit. Also seen vets with demos mob land raiders. (if it's got a tail pipe, stick a grenade in it)

If you're depending on grenades to do anything you're going to lose. It's extremely difficult to get guardsmen into charge range of a unit with full-table-range weapons, so consider grenades a bonus that you might rarely use if they're free, but I'd never buy them.

I think the only thing that hasn't actually be suggested so far is Ratlings.

Then again, I suppose there is a reason for that.

 thedarksaint wrote:
I think the only thing that hasn't actually be suggested so far is Ratlings.

Then again, I suppose there is a reason for that.

Yeah, most people seems to not like them. I find them useful for what I face.

 thedarksaint wrote:
I think the only thing that hasn't actually be suggested so far is Ratlings.

Then again, I suppose there is a reason for that.

Nope, they were suggested around page 4.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
However the alternate path is kill the scoring and mission critical units and win with victory points. This requires a mix list of durable units and enough firepower to kill scoring units and the units that can wipe out your scorers.

This is is why reading the entire OP is important: he's already tried this approach. It failed. Utterly. Even against an army with two naked veteran squads, the absolute minimum troops you can possibly put into a legal IG army and normally a suicidally weak choice, he was unable to win the objective game. That's the most favorable possible situation for the "focus on the mission" approach, and it still didn't work. It's time to concede that it isn't a viable plan and move on.

-Saturate high AV can work as most fliers do not get enough turns shooting to finish all the tanks IG can bring and fliers are the only thing a demolisher can't handle.

I'm not sure where you get that idea from. If you exclude FW units as the OP wants to do, the useful flyers are the Vendetta, Stormraven, and Doom Scythe. All of them have powerful anti-tank weapons that can kill a Leman Russ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CaseyColt wrote:
Better leadership to improve orders.

More guns is what I was eluding to, without actually saying more guns - just wanted to give some characterful (if not optimized, cus OP is nit picky) options.
So yes, more guns. Quite.

Waste of points. Instead of spending points on LD boosts, spend points on more guns.

Another CCS for more orders.

Orders are not efficient. The only reason to bring a second CCS is to give it 4x melta/plasma and kill stuff.

Creed or counts-as for outflank and increased order potential.

Way too expensive. Buy more guns.

Maybe a mix of infantry platoon and chenkov for waves.

Complete waste of points. Buy more guns.

Lots of krak grenades.

Will never get in range to do anything. Buy more guns.

Scout sentinels mid field in cover with stealth.

Breaks the "don't bring units that are weaker than what your opponent is bringing" rule, costs way too many points, and generally sucks.

 Trickstick wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
I still don't get why no vendetta's though, they're in the codex.

Well, there are a few reasons. I know why I don't run mine so much, although I only have one vendetta:

1. They are expensive models.
2. They are harder to transport than most other units.
3. There is a quite a lot of dislike between Guard and Navy in the fluff. Not really a reason I suppose, but I have my Guard hating Navy and by BFG Navy hating Guard.

Mainly I just find them hard to transport though, they have a high size/point ratio.

Vendettas are NAVY?


I have converted 2 vendettas and am working on making a 3rd. They cost substantially less if you use bits from other flyers instead of the hulking Vendetta hull. Also they are smaller.

 Exergy wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
I still don't get why no vendetta's though, they're in the codex.

Well, there are a few reasons. I know why I don't run mine so much, although I only have one vendetta:

1. They are expensive models.
2. They are harder to transport than most other units.
3. There is a quite a lot of dislike between Guard and Navy in the fluff. Not really a reason I suppose, but I have my Guard hating Navy and by BFG Navy hating Guard.

Mainly I just find them hard to transport though, they have a high size/point ratio.

Vendettas are NAVY?


I have converted 2 vendettas and am working on making a 3rd. They cost substantially less if you use bits from other flyers instead of the hulking Vendetta hull. Also they are smaller.

Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.


Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

 Peregrine wrote:

You've had problems with plastic kits?
I didn't think that was possible.

Clearly you've never played Tau.

Or DE. So many long thin bits that break as you take them off the sprue. I got lucky once and got one that was broken on the sprue replaced but most of the time you are stuck with weapons handles that attach to nothing. There then isnt enough surface area to fix them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Vendettas are NAVY?

Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.
Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

shows what I know, I guess coming from the US china perspective the army and navy both have aircraft in addition to the air force.

 Exergy wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Vendettas are NAVY?

Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.
Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

shows what I know, I guess coming from the US china perspective the army and navy both have aircraft in addition to the air force.

I mean, you're not crazy for thinking it. That's how it is pretty much everywhere, and how it was in the Imperium before. But then Horus Heresy, blah blah safety by separation of powers, blah blah chaos.

Basically they got split up so if a guard regiment got corrupted by chaos, they wouldn't have ships to invade with, and vice versa.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.


Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

I believe that the Elysian fliers are on a "permanent secondment" sort of thing. They are for all intents and purposes Guard, but technically still Navy.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Vendettas are NAVY?

Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.
Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

shows what I know, I guess coming from the US china perspective the army and navy both have aircraft in addition to the air force.

I mean, you're not crazy for thinking it. That's how it is pretty much everywhere, and how it was in the Imperium before. But then Horus Heresy, blah blah safety by separation of powers, blah blah chaos.

Basically they got split up so if a guard regiment got corrupted by chaos, they wouldn't have ships to invade with, and vice versa.

and yet, Vendettas are not intersteller craft, so they couldnt invade anyway.

I would imagine that much of the imperial armies would be handicapt like the british did to the indian army in the 18th and 19th centuries. They were allowed infantry and cavalry, but no artillery, thus they would lose against any well supplied colonial force, but could wreck face against anyone not from europe. They could also be combine with colonial artillery units to make an effective fighting force.

Trickstick wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.


Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

I believe that the Elysian fliers are on a "permanent secondment" sort of thing. They are for all intents and purposes Guard, but technically still Navy.

Quite right.

Exergy wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


I mean, you're not crazy for thinking it. That's how it is pretty much everywhere, and how it was in the Imperium before. But then Horus Heresy, blah blah safety by separation of powers, blah blah chaos.

Basically they got split up so if a guard regiment got corrupted by chaos, they wouldn't have ships to invade with, and vice versa.

and yet, Vendettas are not intersteller craft, so they couldnt invade anyway.

I suppose it is the command structure wanting to keep any supposed corrupt guard regiments as immobile as possible. Vendettas/Valks and the like can still take squads from surface to orbit, and even that could prove quite troublesome.

Yeah the 'basic' model lacks the warp engines to go to another system 'rapidly' nor do they have living quarters (as the Fury Interceptor) and facilities for deep void inter-system flight.

So it's pretty much ferrying troops from the Cruiser down to the surface.