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Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 20:57:47


Post by: Deraiderspam


Hi all, Just seeing other people's views on how games workshop are doing at the minute. From my experience I have seen my local games workshop lose all of their experience staff and the new set of staff transform my FLGS from a hobby centre to a shop. This over time has scared off all veteran gamers and teenagers who come down to play due to having to book tables and painting stations and can no longer turn up in the afternoon, hang out and play some games with friends. I would just like to see what other peoples experiences with Games Workshop are at the minute. Thanks Guys.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 21:03:29


Post by: George Spiggott


Give it a couple of months, your local GW will have spontaneously generated a whole shop full of new 'little Timmys'. Either that or it will have another iteration of staff members.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 21:05:47


Post by: Aerethan


Financially they aren't going down the drain.

Now as far as my view of them as a company ignoring finances, yes they are going down the drain.

They sell things no one wanted, don't sell things that people do want, they have almost zero QA, and insist on raising prices well beyond inflation every year. They view no other company as competition, therefore they do nothing to stay competitive.

100% of the top management brass needs to be let go and replaced with people who know what they are doing, instead of pumping the company for a retirement fund.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 21:12:35


Post by: Deraiderspam


Those are fair points aerethan, and about giving it some time, its been 3 months now maybe, I pop in every now and then and I'm still greeted with the same cold greeting as the rest of my friends as we were "Old Clientèle" it seems incredibly unprofessional, so much so that I spoke to them about it, and they said they should be devoting 80% of their time with new comers and the 20% with people who already play, and I saw that not only as unfair, but also unjust as we come down for a nice atmosphere and if we feel shunned... well it just defies the point really.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 21:13:43


Post by: orkybenji


It's another one of these threads,boys!


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 21:25:07


Post by: sarpedons-right-hand


Yippee!

As far as my local GW (Oxford), I've been in there once in 3 years to buy my brother three boxes of Grots for his birthday....
My old local GW in Peterborough used to be great. Three staff at all times, nice atmosphere, plenty of tables, no booking to play nonsense, informative and enthusiastic staffers, a genuinely nice Manager, and helpful Vets....

Mind you, that was 15 years ago


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 21:34:27


Post by: Rainbow Dash


I never got the cold shoulder from the GW back home, though I had been going there a great number of years, by the end-before I moved- the new staff left me alone and didn't try to sell me anything, except paint. It was the only thing I did buy and its the same price everywhere so when GW redid their paint line they told me that several old colours were back, which I liked.
(I found I like that textured paint for model railroads lol)


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 21:34:54


Post by: Griever


Sold all my GW stuff, got into Warmachine and also made enough money to buy christmas presents this year.

Not looking back. WarmaHordes is cheaper to get into, quicker to play, has a better tighter ruleset, makes better models, has a more appealing release schedule, and more people play it.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 21:51:43


Post by: Rainbow Dash


yes but there are no little faerie/sprites, my sprite army is one of the few things keeping me around on the GW side lol


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 21:57:08


Post by: H.B.M.C.


FLGS?

What a novel concept...


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 22:30:40


Post by: Kaldor


 Deraiderspam wrote:
Those are fair points aerethan, and about giving it some time, its been 3 months now maybe, I pop in every now and then and I'm still greeted with the same cold greeting as the rest of my friends as we were "Old Clientèle" it seems incredibly unprofessional, so much so that I spoke to them about it, and they said they should be devoting 80% of their time with new comers and the 20% with people who already play, and I saw that not only as unfair, but also unjust as we come down for a nice atmosphere and if we feel shunned... well it just defies the point really.


Look, I don't want to say they way they are operating is right but they're a retail outlet, not a social club. You don't go down to your local sporting goods store and just hang around all afternoon, do you? Or your local supermarket? You shouldn't expect to be able to go to a GW store and just hang out. That's not what it's for.

Now, gaming stores are a bit different. My local game store has ~8 tables, and runs gaming nights twice a week. During those nights, we are free to turn up, get a game in and hang out with our fellow geeks. And if a GW store has a game night, or time dedicated for gamers, then you should feel free to turn up and not feel shunned. But during regular retail hours? No. The staff are there to sell models to customers, and if you and your friends are just hanging around without buying, then you're not really customers.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 22:33:14


Post by: Peregrine


Short version: GW is going down the drain, and the sooner they die and get bought by WOTC the better.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 22:39:59


Post by: Rainbow Dash


assuming Ancient Aliens is wrong and we don't all die this year, how long do you give them before they fold?


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 22:43:05


Post by: stokecity_m


 Rainbow Dash wrote:
assuming Ancient Aliens is wrong and we don't all die this year, how long do you give them before they fold?



A very very very long time.

Games workshop share price is exceptionally high and has shown a massive increase in the last few years.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 23:40:30


Post by: Aerethan


 Peregrine wrote:
Short version: GW is going down the drain, and the sooner they die and get bought by WOTC the better.


I'd be ok with this. I'd be ok with damn near anyone buying GW if only for the management redundancy purge.

There are so many ways GW could be making money beyond just the models, but instead of releasing other products like swag(which I would totally buy) they just do price hikes to increase profit per sale, instead of increasing sales.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 23:45:00


Post by: Platuan4th


 Peregrine wrote:
Short version: GW is going down the drain, and the sooner they die and get bought by WOTC the better.


Honestly, considering how Hasbro pushes the kid friendly characters above and beyond all others, being bought by them wouldn't be a change from how GW operates with regard to releases.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 23:51:31


Post by: Laughing Man


 Platuan4th wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Short version: GW is going down the drain, and the sooner they die and get bought by WOTC the better.


Honestly, considering how Hasbro pushes the kid friendly characters above and beyond all others, being bought by them wouldn't be a change from how GW operates with regard to releases.

We're talking about the same WoTC that just finished the Innistrad block, right? Wouldn't precisely call the block that introduced "Sacrifice a human" "kid friendly above all else." Although admittedly their RPG fare has been bland beyond all imagining lately.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 23:53:09


Post by: Sean_OBrien


There are differences between a company which is financially making ground in many ways and a company which has core problems with their product and customer base.

GW is making grounds financially, and the next few years should show strong numbers on their balance sheets. Their new license for Warhammer Fantasy should end up being an additional $3 million or so a year if the sales are comparable to the relationship between 40K sales and the value of their 40K license.

The Hobbit will sell miniatures to movie goers and collectors. The three movies should be able to milk that out for a few years as well.

Structural problems though are that the value of their licenses that they sell to video game companies are tied to the popularity of the miniatures. The movie miniatures are a short term value. The popularity of the miniatures have been dropping - especially in the US. Miniatures and analog gaming in general have been loosing ground (though I think it may have dropped to a level plateau and will generally hold steady now).


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/09 23:56:27


Post by: Rainbow Dash


yes you can only rely on kids forever, there will be a point where you will price them out, I have a pretty good job and even I can't afford to play the game


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 00:06:08


Post by: Platuan4th


 Laughing Man wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Short version: GW is going down the drain, and the sooner they die and get bought by WOTC the better.


Honestly, considering how Hasbro pushes the kid friendly characters above and beyond all others, being bought by them wouldn't be a change from how GW operates with regard to releases.

We're talking about the same WoTC that just finished the Innistrad block, right? Wouldn't precisely call the block that introduced "Sacrifice a human" "kid friendly above all else." Although admittedly their RPG fare has been bland beyond all imagining lately.


Head to TFworld or Seibertron and ask about "The Yellow Menace".


Or not. It was a joke about how Hasbro is clogging shelves with Bumblebees and that GW does the same with Space Marines.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 00:11:27


Post by: Rainbow Dash


least hasbro makes ponies... though there are a lot of instances where they are just as small minded and stupid as GW


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 00:26:15


Post by: gunslingerpro


I would prefer GW to be bought out by Disney, to be honest.

Get a new management structure with a push into Star Wars miniature games and perhaps a new movie franchise?

They have been dipping their toes into more pg-13 fare as of late. Maybe not to GrimDark levels, but Marvel has certainly upped the ante somewhat.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 01:32:13


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Kaldor wrote:
You shouldn't expect to be able to go to a GW store and just hang out. That's not what it's for.


Exactly. GW stores are actually meant to be used as free child daycare for all the mothers who can't be bothered dragging their kids around the mall.

Or maybe that's just how they were used in Oz...


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 01:38:27


Post by: Azreal13


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Kaldor wrote:
You shouldn't expect to be able to go to a GW store and just hang out. That's not what it's for.


Exactly. GW stores are actually meant to be used as free child daycare for all the mothers who can't be bothered dragging their kids around the mall.

Or maybe that's just how they were used in Oz...


Nope, that's how they're used in the UK as well, in my experience.

Used to drive the old manager of our FLGS mad, so he formalised it to one night a week and clamped down any other time.

Since that closed, the GW isn't anywhere near as strict, I avoid it as it is invariably full of unsupervised Timmys, oh and fugitives from the Shower Patrol and Indoor Voice Police.

We have a great independent club though, else it would hurt a lot more.



Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 01:45:31


Post by: cincydooley


Griever wrote:
makes better models, has a more appealing release schedule, and more people play it.


Well these three points are just laughable.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 01:54:33


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 azreal13 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Kaldor wrote:
You shouldn't expect to be able to go to a GW store and just hang out. That's not what it's for.


Exactly. GW stores are actually meant to be used as free child daycare for all the mothers who can't be bothered dragging their kids around the mall.

Or maybe that's just how they were used in Oz...


Nope, that's how they're used in the UK as well, in my experience.

Used to drive the old manager of our FLGS mad, so he formalised it to one night a week and clamped down any other time.

Since that closed, the GW isn't anywhere near as strict, I avoid it as it is invariably full of unsupervised Timmys, oh and fugitives from the Shower Patrol and Indoor Voice Police.

We have a great independent club though, else it would hurt a lot more.


The problem of course is that that takes away the appeal for a lot of parents to drop $100 or so a week on plastic toys for their kids.

When they could go to the shopping district and dump the kids off in the store for a few hours while they do whatever it is that they feel like doing (catch a grown up movie, do some unmolested shopping, just get some peace and quiet) - the parents would be more likely to pony up that money.

Once that is removed from the equation though, the value of the product is reduced. GW might think that their retail stores were not daycare centers...but the parents who were paying for the toys for their kids would likely have disagreed. Add into that the increased relative prices and the cost/benefit on the decision makers side of the equation becomes less appealing.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 01:55:20


Post by: Peregrine


 gunslingerpro wrote:
I would prefer GW to be bought out by Disney, to be honest.

Get a new management structure with a push into Star Wars miniature games and perhaps a new movie franchise?

They have been dipping their toes into more pg-13 fare as of late. Maybe not to GrimDark levels, but Marvel has certainly upped the ante somewhat.


Besides the issue of content and properly handling the grimdark of 40k, Disney doesn't have any experience with gaming, other than licensing out their movies for video games. They could probably fix the retail stores (or kill them off entirely) and license out the IP effectively, but I don't have any faith in their ability to manage the game itself. WOTC, on the other hand, has extensive experience with tabletop gaming (including their own miniatures games) and a proven record of success with MTG and D&D. Give them 40k and it will be a better game.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 03:40:05


Post by: Zoned


 Deraiderspam wrote:
Those are fair points aerethan, and about giving it some time, its been 3 months now maybe, I pop in every now and then and I'm still greeted with the same cold greeting as the rest of my friends as we were "Old Clientèle" it seems incredibly unprofessional, so much so that I spoke to them about it, and they said they should be devoting 80% of their time with new comers and the 20% with people who already play, and I saw that not only as unfair, but also unjust as we come down for a nice atmosphere and if we feel shunned... well it just defies the point really.


Could you clarify what you want from the store?

When I go to a GW, all I really want is a place to play 40k/WFB on nice tables with nice terrain. Usually, I don't need anything from the staff.

Occasionally I'll want to build a new army and I ask them for advice. It's a 10 minute conversation, maybe. Sometimes I want some painting advice - this might take a little longer if they show me on a test figure. Sometimes they have to get up in between steps to talk to customers - I have no problem with that, I probably have to wait for this step to dry anyway.

When I come in on the evenings, there's always tables to play on. It's busier on the weekends, and sometimes they let younger players play on the tables, but I'm cool with that. 14 years ago I was that young player and I would have loved to get the kind of care and attention I see kids get nowadays from the staff. I've been to stores where this is done badly and the store is a glorified babysitting centre. I've also been to stores where they really had them organized to learn constructive hobby stuff.

Note that I really only go to GW for gaming nights or maybe some advice. I don't just sit there doing nothing as I see some customers do. So, my point is I really don't need much from the staff, and I'm curious what's making you feel "shunned." Maybe things are different between here in Toronto and wherever you are.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 03:48:40


Post by: Ineedvc2500


I dont know any kids now that wanna read a 300 pg rulebook, realize none of it sunk in and then have to read it again. They are gonna choose porn or video games lol. 15 yrs go id say yea. I was one of those kids.
Have they lost their minds? No no no, they are trying to keep thier minds. As a consumer im a lil confused on thier target demographic. I saw the hobbit package and laughed. Id just make one and charge 2 million $ for it or whatever they think their profit margin will be.
The reason their stock prices are rising is because they are meeting thier quarterly earnings quota by inflating prices to compensate for decrease in sales. Eventually they will hit a ceiling and the empire will crumble or be bought out. I expect then stock to split. All of this is speculation tho. Im not an authority in this.
If WOTC buys them out then we ill prob see rotations sooner than every 4 years


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 03:49:37


Post by: We


People have been predicting GW going under since I got into the hobby in the early 90's and here we are still.

One thing though, if another company were to buy out GW then I would bet money that they would close the retail stores as any sane company would realize they don't make money. So careful what you wish for (if you like playing in a GW store - personally I can't stand it).


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 04:15:53


Post by: Ineedvc2500


I dont think they will go under...completely. theres too big a following at the moment. If i were to look at the overall price increase over the past 10 yrs and apply that to the next 10 years, we would be paying insane prices for the same plastic.
I remember when i had to beg my parents for the liz/bret starter back inthe 90s (xmas mind you) my father was strongly against paying $100 for plastic models but he folded and got it for me for xmas. I hope i will be able to do the same financially, i doubt i will if the US economy continues this way.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 04:18:22


Post by: Aerethan


I understand this concept that GW stores are retail, and are meant to sell, but here's the problem with that: the internet.

How many consumers in this day and age don't find something new and then bother googling it? Damn near every person in the US knows about Ebay, Amazon, and the concept of online discount selling. So why on earth would I need a store that offers nothing but full retail prices?

For me, the tables and the ability to hang out and paint or just chat with other games is a major draw to get me into the store. Sure I can paint at home, and I can game at home, and I can sure as hell get every single item in a GW store online for 20+% off. I don't go there for the product, I go there for the services. And it is because of those services that I'm willing to spend some money in that store.

Offering things that online discounters can't is the ONLY way to stay competitive today. Warstore has 20% off and $6 flat rate shipping. So any purchase of $30 retail value of product and the shipping is covered, and with GW prices it isn't hard to hit $30. But you know what the Warstore.com doesn't have? A gaming space here in CA, and a community of players to interact with.

Now if GW insists on rushing people out the door once their money is spent, there is zero reason to continue spending there.
Starbucks doesn't kick you out once your coffee is ready. They provide a VERY cushy environment in which to enjoy their product.

With how small of a customer base GW has, they should be doing everything in their power to keep players rather than pushing them out. Customer loyalty is far more reliable income than turn and burn profit.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 05:02:48


Post by: Draenath


The GW's in Adelaide, South Australia tend to run constant events and are very friendly with regulars. Sure they will spend extra time with unfamiliar players, but I can usually walk in and engage in a 20-30min conversation between sales.

My only concern is their strict rules concerning modelling / Painting events - forcing you to purchase models on the day (hence why I very rarely join them).


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 07:03:18


Post by: Harriticus


imo, GW is deliberately trying to drive away veteran gamers and older crowds. As for "why" you may ask, they have a bizarre and confusing business model and so a lot of things that don't make sense. They're almost anti-social when it comes to advertising, for instance.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 07:58:28


Post by: notprop


Whats bizarre about GW except that they have found that they have increased their market share based upon actual high/main street presence?

The stores are their advertising pure and simple and why each store is focused on new gamers. The direct sales also boost turnover to that which would be made from independent retail sales only.

It goes against most examples of the Internet damaging retail locations but It is working for them. They are expanding heir retail arm again after all.

As to the OP, yep GW turnover staff allot and any new manager will be focused on numbers so that new players not players that hang out. Your in the uk, join a club there are plenty in most counties and probably have a bar as well!


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 08:06:13


Post by: maskedman504


What is a GW store?

I have been playing since 1994 and have never seen one.

OH wait, that is why they aren't going under.

To the guy repping Warmahordes as cheaper, better models and more players:

I have spent $110 on Cygnar for 5 jacks; I have no where near a playable army, the plastic is so hard the mold lines need filed like pewter (can't scrape them with a knife) and the plastic does not take plastic cement. As for the model design, apples/oranges.

PP is hardly revolutionizing wargaming, but I do like their (or whoever they have branded as their) brushes.

I will play Warmachine, but to me, it is the M:tG of miniature wargaming.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 08:41:36


Post by: Stranger83


 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
I dont know any kids now that wanna read a 300 pg rulebook, realize none of it sunk in and then have to read it again. They are gonna choose porn or video games lol. 15 yrs go id say yea. I was one of those kids.
Have they lost their minds? No no no, they are trying to keep thier minds. As a consumer im a lil confused on thier target demographic. I saw the hobbit package and laughed. Id just make one and charge 2 million $ for it or whatever they think their profit margin will be.
The reason their stock prices are rising is because they are meeting thier quarterly earnings quota by inflating prices to compensate for decrease in sales. Eventually they will hit a ceiling and the empire will crumble or be bought out. I expect then stock to split. All of this is speculation tho. Im not an authority in this.
If WOTC buys them out then we ill prob see rotations sooner than every 4 years


GW sales have been falling, we have no idea about the size of the customer base. If every “veteran” that moves away from GW is replaced with a new young player then the customer base is remaining steady.

The fall is sales could well be because prices mean that people spend the same each month but take longer to complete their armies, as such a customer that would have become a veteran after 2 years is now a veteran after 3, giving GW an extra year of profits from them. Far from being a company in decline that is a company on the up.

I’m not saying any of the above is true, but it has as much chance of being true as all the doom and gloom people on here shouting for their demise.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 08:58:05


Post by: notprop


The fall is sales is also a guess.

The only sales figure there is is the unit sales figure from the balance sheet on the yearly report.

This this always seems to be interpreted as a drop in sales but could also be down to other reasons like product changes (no longer selling unit blisters and selling bigger boxes instead) or the reduction in retail outlets.

I'm not saying it is or isn't a drop in sales but there isn't enought data to be certain.

GW as also increasing the number of stores at the moment which would suggest that sales are increasing.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 09:35:54


Post by: FabricatorGeneralMike


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Kaldor wrote:
You shouldn't expect to be able to go to a GW store and just hang out. That's not what it's for.


Exactly. GW stores are actually meant to be used as free child daycare for all the mothers who can't be bothered dragging their kids around the mall.

Or maybe that's just how they were used in Oz...


Nope was the same when I was a staffer in Canada also. Kinda funny that during there biggest growth periods (early 90's to early 2000's) that's how the stores where. Basically a social club and guess what they made their quota's. But in all honesty it's so much easier to to market to kids, plan for 1 or 2 birthdays and Christmas's and be done with them and get a new 'Little Timmy' in there then it is to market a game to late teens and adults.

I do remember the good times back then and it kinda makes me sad to think about the, oh well back to playing DDO.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 10:06:17


Post by: UNCLEBADTOUCH


The problem is GW sells us a sociable hobby gaming lifestyle. It's all about getting together with other people face to face to have great fun playing games. This was always referenced in there sales pitch and having gaming space in stores was part of this "lifestyle" that made the product more attractive to the consumer. Removing that facility then makes the product less attractive to new people, it's one less selling point, but also goes back on what GW told existing customers which can make people feel short changed. Its akin to a car salesman telling you all about the joys of the open road to sell you a car, then a week later they turn up and take the wheels aways.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 10:29:32


Post by: notprop


Rubbish, why is a shop the focus of your hobby?

I dare say you would complain if they tried to sell you something every time you went in as well.

25+ years on and I have never played a game in a shop (not counting WW and TTN for tournaments) and don't know anyone that does. In the UK we have plenty of locations for gaming - clubs. Not being able to use the 4x4 table at GW is the start of a new world not the end of it.

When you learn to ride a bike the stabilisers get removed.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 10:41:28


Post by: Breotan


 cincydooley wrote:
Griever wrote:
makes better models, has a more appealing release schedule, and more people play it.
Well these three points are just laughable.
On the other hand, they do work well for the most recent stuff released by Malifaux. Well, okay, maybe they don't have more people playing but hopefully that will change as the miniatures get more attention.



Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 10:53:10


Post by: UNCLEBADTOUCH


 notprop wrote:
Rubbish, why is a shop the focus of your hobby?

I dare say you would complain if they tried to sell you something every time you went in as well.

25+ years on and I have never played a game in a shop (not counting WW and TTN for tournaments) and don't know anyone that does. In the UK we have plenty of locations for gaming - clubs. Not being able to use the 4x4 table at GW is the start of a new world not the end of it.

When you learn to ride a bike the stabilisers get removed.


Well that has nothing to do with my comment but thanks for contributing. If you notice i talked in general terms about how GW sold the hobby and why some people may be upset when they don't get what was sold to them. It's called an inducement to sign ;-) also I pointed out how they may find it more difficult to attract new people, this is because the vast majority of new GW customers first "hobby community" is in a GW store ( in UK at least), take that away and yes you do make it a harder sell.



Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 10:59:24


Post by: Skinnereal


Surely one of the ways for GW to fix the store problem is to franchise them. With enough clauses to stick to 50%+ GW stock, or GW-only terrain on the tables, then a store could branch out into other fields, and be able to compete with any FLGS.
More stores in an area must be good, if more players are brought in to use them. Add choice, and be able to adapt.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 11:07:36


Post by: Zweischneid


 Aerethan wrote:

How many consumers in this day and age don't find something new and then bother googling it? Damn near every person in the US knows about Ebay, Amazon, and the concept of online discount selling. So why on earth would I need a store that offers nothing but full retail prices?


Yeah.

But eBay is also the best proof that there're a lot of consumers that aren't going at this quite as rationally.

Bought Black Library's Flesh of Cretacia recently (12 quid, free shipping). Read it. Wrote a short blog article about it. Than put it on eBay to get rid of it again. Got 14 quid (+2 quid shipping). And you can still order it for 12 on GW's website.

Go to the "ebay follies" thread and have a look for even better examples.

If a majority of people would truly always shop around for the best value, those shops would be out a long time ago. But people aren't like that. They purchase things on "impulse". The same reason GW's secrecy-combined-with-slash-release is working, no matter how much people hate it.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 11:12:03


Post by: Ugavine


STOP THE PRESS
Games Workshop shops are shops that want to sell their products shocker!

I don't play in stores, don't want to, never wanted to, don't understand why people want to.

My local GWs are more than a FLGS than most LGS I have been to with great friendly staff. Maybe I just have good GW stores and have only been to poor games stores, but that's how it is.

To me a GW store, or any gaming store, is exactly that, a retail outlet for their products. I go their to buy things.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 11:34:24


Post by: Zweischneid


Well, I think there are essentially two ways to go.

A) The Gaming Center (Warhammer World, Tabletop Nation, etc..).

B) The "pure" Retail Store


The former are mainly build to provide the "gaming experience", the latter to sell stuff, ideally to walk-in customers unfamiliar with the game/product/company


In ancient times, GW stores were a little bit of both. Evidently, they tried to trim it down and focus on "B".

While I can also see the appeal of A, I don't think they would work very well in busy high-rent-per-square-foot areas where you get the best exposure to walk-in / new customers. Gaming Centers tend to be a bit off the beaten path in former industrial estates and things like that where you can get lots of room for little money. If you go there, you are most likely already a customer who knows about the product. They synch with online-retailers (Triple Helix Wargames comes to mind). But they suck at getting a brand name / product out there to people who don't know you yet.




Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 11:48:34


Post by: Herzlos


 Kaldor wrote:

Look, I don't want to say they way they are operating is right but they're a retail outlet, not a social club. You don't go down to your local sporting goods store and just hang around all afternoon, do you? Or your local supermarket? You shouldn't expect to be able to go to a GW store and just hang out. That's not what it's for.


Except they don't market them as stores, they market them as hobby centres, with the implication that you can go to your hobby centre to take part in the hobby, like you'd go to a sports centre and expect to play sports.

I'd fully approve of separate stores (in high rent/visibility areas) and gaming centres (in lower rent/visibility areas), as the current set-ups are pretty poor for both. Most stores don't really have the space for much gaming, or browsing when games are running, but they need to keep selling a complete product, and hosting hobby activities is part of it.

If I lived within say an hour of WHW or an independent gaming centre I'd be in there every other weekend and spending a fortune. But I'm 5 hours away from the nearest one so my wallet is safe


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 12:16:02


Post by: Zoned


 Harriticus wrote:
imo, GW is deliberately trying to drive away veteran gamers and older crowds. As for "why" you may ask, they have a bizarre and confusing business model and so a lot of things that don't make sense. They're almost anti-social when it comes to advertising, for instance.


A staffer explained to me once that advertising is expensive and it doesn't make sense to advertise a niche market product to a mass audience.

I'm no expert on advertising but that makes sense to me. I have quite a few friends who play but I also have quite a few friends, who despite having many similar interests as me, simply can't get into miniature gaming. It's not about price (since they have other expensive hobbies) they just can't see themselves pushing around model soldiers and rolling dice.

I've noticed that the local GWs are more focused on recruiting new gamers. Events tend to be new gamer centric. Rarely do I see tournaments or campaigns or things that interest me. Having said that, I've never felt "driven out" and I understand that new gamers need more support than I do. Thankfully, there's enough veteran level events run by indies to keep my interest in check. Our gaming group is fairly large as well so when everyone's back for the summer we usually hold a month long campaign ending in an epic Apoc game at the FLGS.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 12:37:03


Post by: ClaretStevo


Just want to stick up for GW a little here.

Im by no means a fanboy - in fact ive only just come back to wargames after a 20 year break.

However while taking the mrs shopping ive been to quite a few of the GW over the last 6 months, Bury - Manchester - Blackpool - Bolton - Plymouth - Exeter to name a few and each and every time (blackpool aside) the guys there want to do anything they can to help me (even to the point that im thinking just leave me alone). I thought this could have been due to my age (being 31) and them spending lots of time with young players.

I have been told by all the GW above (bar Blackpool) that i was welcome to come down and play there whenever i like and some have invited me to after closed adult nights

Again its been a long time since ive played, and even tho ive spent a small fortune on models this year i still may never play again, i just think GW seem to get bad press for everything and its a little unfair (the price hike i can understand the bad press)



Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 13:39:16


Post by: notprop


ClaretStevo wrote:
.....and some have invited me to after closed adult nights....


At last a GW event I can get inboard with!

Seriouly though I'm much the same as you (if a little older ) and have always found the shops helpful in spite of the poor fellers being ravaged by pre pubescent muchkins, even then I hardly buy anything. Why you with Wayland just 20 minutes down the road.

That's sort of the crux of the GW situation though, I was like the munchkins when I started a 11; generally you can only go a hobby shop if your parents are heading somewhere near to one. Without a credit card they Probably can't do the online thing.

Being older and having the freedom of a car or being centre based like uni students means you can shop around. GW know it's fills that newb niche and tries to proliferate that. Anyone else is covered by online retailers and FLGs and with the number of clubs already in the UK why would they waste money on real estate for bigger stores with gaming areas when it's already covered by the clubs.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 13:49:19


Post by: Lanrak


IMO.
The GW stores have gone the same way as the WD.

Originaly hobby focused ,( the soft sell.)
Here is a brilliant narrative campain to get you inspired...here is an in depth moddeling and painting guide how the studio staff converted their minatures for this campain.(And at the back a list of parts and paints you require if you are inspired by the articles....)

Yes you are paying over the odds for GW stuff, but they support the GW hobby in the GW hobby shops...

Now all the hobby is replaced by 'buying new stuff now !!!!'(Hard sell to kiddies.)

SO no added value from hobby support at all.

So why pay fro a magazine full of adverts?
So why pay twice as much for items from a retail store , that gives you no extra ?

SO many people are simply getting better value for money elsewhere...

The GW hobby used to be the TTMG hobby with lots of support and input from GW staff.
(Greatest period of growth 1987 to 1997 when they doubled turn over every 3 years.Since 2004 GW plc has lost over 40% of their sales volumes.)


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 14:12:00


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 notprop wrote:
The fall is sales is also a guess.


Not so much.

Thanks to the accidentally leaked document from the CHS case, we have access to 7 years of sales data for a variety of popular and in many cases essential products. When you levelize for the annual price increases - the drop in sales volume is as high as 30% over the past 7 years of information. Even without doing any sort of mathmatical adjustments - the numbers show the drop. For example, in 2004 GW sold $131,171 worth of Terminators (99120101027) - in 2011 they sold $124,993 of the same item in the US. That is a drop in sales on a dollar to dollar comparison not taking into account any price increases which have occurred in the last 7 years time.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 15:03:56


Post by: Sigvatr


 Peregrine wrote:
Short version: GW is going down the drain, and the sooner they die and get bought by WOTC the better.


Amen to that.

But alas, I do not blame GW at all. I fully believe in capitalism and thus blame the customers, not the company. As long as GW sells enough, they won't care for anything else. I hope, I really do, for The Hobbit to become a MASSIVE financial fail. Please!


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 15:27:25


Post by: Eilif


 Sigvatr wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Short version: GW is going down the drain, and the sooner they die and get bought by WOTC the better.


Amen to that.

But alas, I do not blame GW at all. I fully believe in capitalism and thus blame the customers, not the company. As long as GW sells enough, they won't care for anything else. I hope, I really do, for The Hobbit to become a MASSIVE financial fail. Please!


I'm very much not a fan of the GW organization, but I don't understand this point of view. Do you two want the GW games to become prepainted clix franchises? WOTC does not have a great track record with mass battle (a relative term) miniatures games.

I've refused for some time to pay GW prices, but I do appreciate the role they play in bringing newbies into the hobby. GW has got to be the single biggest gateway into miniature wargaming there is. As flawed and reckless as they sometimes seem, there's no guarantee that a company that buys GW is going to continue the miniatures game as we know it. There's a good chance they could just use the IP for different gaming products, or they might continue the games and really feth it up.

Sum up, I wouldn't be surprised if GW does go down, but I don't want to hasten it. Those who want GW to die don't seem to realize that the future results could be much, much worse then the present state of things.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 15:33:26


Post by: spaceelf


 Sean_OBrien wrote:
 notprop wrote:
The fall is sales is also a guess.


Not so much.

Thanks to the accidentally leaked document from the CHS case, we have access to 7 years of sales data for a variety of popular and in many cases essential products. When you levelize for the annual price increases - the drop in sales volume is as high as 30% over the past 7 years of information. Even without doing any sort of mathmatical adjustments - the numbers show the drop. For example, in 2004 GW sold $131,171 worth of Terminators (99120101027) - in 2011 they sold $124,993 of the same item in the US. That is a drop in sales on a dollar to dollar comparison not taking into account any price increases which have occurred in the last 7 years time.


The Terminator example is not a good one. In 2004 there was not a starter set with plastic terminators. Today most people would buy Black Reach termis rather than the $50 box set of 5. Also, some people prefer plastic and would convert plastic termis to grey knights. Now there is a GK termi set. This also canibalizes the sales of the original termi box set.

I think that it is more useful to look at their total sales for 40k.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 16:24:18


Post by: hotsauceman1


How many people have actually encountered "Little Timmies" in their life?
I have personally seen none. This hobby is not like video games or toys. You have to be pro active in evening searching for the hobby.
I dont see many parents taking their kids into a game store for toys.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 16:25:36


Post by: notprop


Indeed spaceelf, I confess I missed that revelation in the Chapterhouse thread myself. Taking individual items from a line and extrapolating a sales picture for the whole line is also guessing. Loosing £7-8k of sales per year could be indicative of a change in meta as much as anything, it could be explained by an £10k increase in landraider sales as fashions change.

That's not to say it isn't a drop in sales, purely that without the whole picture anything could be true.



Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 16:33:16


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
How many people have actually encountered "Little Timmies" in their life?
I have personally seen none. This hobby is not like video games or toys. You have to be pro active in evening searching for the hobby.
I dont see many parents taking their kids into a game store for toys.


That's cos you're not in the UK, the average player is much younger there, GW in Britain made a move to focus it's efforts on the very young during the pokemon times in the UK, known to us older players as the Red Age or Age of Strife. I was selling GW stuff in a hobby shop around this time and was suddenly besieged by small children with mildly stressed mothers. To this day, GWs in the UK are basically glorified babysitting services and the one in Bristol center was certainly busy just around school closing time or on Saturdays when the mums would drop the kids off and then go get a starbucks and do their shopping. Lots and lots of little timmies over there.

I'm happy with GW just focusing on recruiting the young and not providing a playing space. This is one more strength to the indy stores and we need far more of those.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 16:41:18


Post by: hotsauceman1


I,m not sure more Indy stores are good. Really good ones are a severe rarity.
Most go down the drain very fast, and are staffed by people with severe Biases in games.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 16:46:34


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I,m not sure more Indy stores are good. Really good ones are a severe rarity.
Most go down the drain very fast, and are staffed by people with severe Biases in games.


Because you get unbiased game service at a GW store? Or the ability to play at all? You're not even allowed to play GW games that aren't 'the big 3' there.


Most go down the drain because people are not prepared to work hard at them and think they can open a shop and just play the games all day with their mates.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 16:48:59


Post by: hotsauceman1


Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 17:12:47


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


GW stores are great, in my opinion.

If I talk to someone about Warhammer and they haven't a scooby about what it is and they are British, they recognise the logo and say "Hey, there's one near where I live!".

In other words, they're great for pulling in new gamers. Do they stay? Maybe not. But even so . . .


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 17:26:07


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 spaceelf wrote:
I think that it is more useful to look at their total sales for 40k.


That is actually in there as well (they have to list out sales for the 40,000 trademark). It also shows the downward trend.

 notprop wrote:
Indeed spaceelf, I confess I missed that revelation in the Chapterhouse thread myself. Taking individual items from a line and extrapolating a sales picture for the whole line is also guessing. Loosing £7-8k of sales per year could be indicative of a change in meta as much as anything, it could be explained by an £10k increase in landraider sales as fashions change.

That's not to say it isn't a drop in sales, purely that without the whole picture anything could be true.



Find it and look for yourself. Dozens of people have demonstrated many times over many years using many sources of information that the trend line for the GW sales volumes are going down. True believers discount this as guessing - however it is no more guessing than scientists are when they calculate the diameter of the Earth...after all - no one has gotten out a tape measure and measured it, so it must be guessing.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 17:29:51


Post by: Testify


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

That's cos you're not in the UK, the average player is much younger there, GW in Britain made a move to focus it's efforts on the very young during the pokemon times in the UK, known to us older players as the Red Age or Age of Strife. I was selling GW stuff in a hobby shop around this time and was suddenly besieged by small children with mildly stressed mothers. To this day, GWs in the UK are basically glorified babysitting services and the one in Bristol center was certainly busy just around school closing time or on Saturdays when the mums would drop the kids off and then go get a starbucks and do their shopping. Lots and lots of little timmies over there.

I go to GW stores fairly regularly and I don't recognise the picture you paint.

Also, are you saying that no kids were into GW before "back in the day"? Or are you annoyed at children's parents paying for things? They can't work so they need to get money from somewhere.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 17:33:03


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
How many people have actually encountered "Little Timmies" in their life?
I have personally seen none. This hobby is not like video games or toys. You have to be pro active in evening searching for the hobby.
I dont see many parents taking their kids into a game store for toys.


I used to trip over them every time I would go into a GW store (haven't been in a GW store for years...but I have no reason to think they have changed any). I still do trip over them when I go to independent stores - though now they are likely to be messing with whatever the CCG fad is of the day or something by PP instead. If you go into a store which has in store gaming tables, you will trip over Timmy.

As far as finding it - parents find it as an alternative to TV and video games. They look in the phone book (physical or online) for hobby stores in their area. Timmy gets picked on, but it would be good for him to have a hobby other than staring at the TV all day. Here is a store - lets take him in and see what he takes to. Oh look, he seems to like those. What's that? You offer gaming here on Thursday nights? Timmy will be able to socialize with people who are like him...and I get to have a girls night out at Applebees...

It happens a lot more often than you might think - and it is the core of GW's retail business strategy.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 17:35:03


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


Little timmies play something by PP in your area? That's interesting . . .


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 17:38:27


Post by: notprop


Not a true believer but you can't extrapolate sales figures from one line or item.

I've not read what you are referring to and you don't seem to want to expand on this new source to continue the discussion?

I've not seen anyone use anything other than anecdotal evidence and the GW accounts to prove a slump in sales. The report includes only one line on sales and that is unit sales which can be interpreted many ways but not tied down with, you guessed it sales figures.

You seem to want to have one of those white/dark knight type conversations I'm more interested in new information.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 17:40:02


Post by: Peregrine


Zoned wrote:
A staffer explained to me once that advertising is expensive and it doesn't make sense to advertise a niche market product to a mass audience.


That's just GW propaganda. MTG advertises, video games advertise, etc. Obviously you don't buy super bowl ads for 40k, but it's absolutely stupid not to advertise at gaming conventions (yes GW, there is a hobby outside of your "GW hobby" niche), in video game magazines, on websites related to things 40k players tend to be interested in, etc.

This of course is one of the reasons I hope GW dies so they can be bought by WOTC, because they need to be owned by someone who understands how marketing works.

 Zweischneid wrote:
While I can also see the appeal of A, I don't think they would work very well in busy high-rent-per-square-foot areas where you get the best exposure to walk-in / new customers. Gaming Centers tend to be a bit off the beaten path in former industrial estates and things like that where you can get lots of room for little money. If you go there, you are most likely already a customer who knows about the product. They synch with online-retailers (Triple Helix Wargames comes to mind). But they suck at getting a brand name / product out there to people who don't know you yet.


Except that:

1) If you don't have gaming space there's no reason for any customers to ever go into your store, since they can just buy everything online for less money. If you don't have gaming space you might as well just kill the retail side entirely.

2) Gaming space is one of the best ways to get new people into the game. Which is going to be more attractive to a new customer, an empty store with shelves of product, or a store with gaming tables set up, people playing and having fun, a game you can watch and see how it all works, etc.

Eilif wrote:
WOTC does not have a great track record with mass battle (a relative term) miniatures games.


WOTC isn't stupid. They know when they've got a good product, and aren't going to make dramatic changes to the game and risk killing that product

As flawed and reckless as they sometimes seem, there's no guarantee that a company that buys GW is going to continue the miniatures game as we know it.


That's why I hope for them to be bought by WOTC. They have enough money to afford the purchase, but they know the gaming industry well enough to avoid damaging the game and make legitimate improvements.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 17:48:01


Post by: Rainbow Dash


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I,m not sure more Indy stores are good. Really good ones are a severe rarity.
Most go down the drain very fast, and are staffed by people with severe Biases in games.


Because you get unbiased game service at a GW store? Or the ability to play at all? You're not even allowed to play GW games that aren't 'the big 3' there.


Most go down the drain because people are not prepared to work hard at them and think they can open a shop and just play the games all day with their mates.


I've never had that problem, its always been the 'you can only play it if people can buy it" rule


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 18:41:57


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.


Are you seriously telling me you're complaining that going into a nonGW store is stressful because you encountered someone who tried to get you interested in a game they liked?
You are a delicate little snowflake aren't you.


Testify wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

That's cos you're not in the UK, the average player is much younger there, GW in Britain made a move to focus it's efforts on the very young during the pokemon times in the UK, known to us older players as the Red Age or Age of Strife. I was selling GW stuff in a hobby shop around this time and was suddenly besieged by small children with mildly stressed mothers. To this day, GWs in the UK are basically glorified babysitting services and the one in Bristol center was certainly busy just around school closing time or on Saturdays when the mums would drop the kids off and then go get a starbucks and do their shopping. Lots and lots of little timmies over there.

I go to GW stores fairly regularly and I don't recognise the picture you paint.
Also, are you saying that no kids were into GW before "back in the day"? Or are you annoyed at children's parents paying for things? They can't work so they need to get money from somewhere.

Go to the GW in Bristol city center, on a Saturday afternoon, or after school finishes during the week.
The demographic for players was considerably older when I started playing, as an 11 year old I was decidedly young and the majority were about 18 and older through to middle age. I used to visit the GW in Beckenham quite a bit at that age and I was aware I was among much older people and they used to be entertained and encouraged me as a youngster because I was considered very young for starting the game. It was most definitely during the pokemon craze times that I saw GW move to target younger players and capture the parent pound, since the black teeshirt and long hair teen brigade just didn't have much cash.



Rainbow Dash wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I,m not sure more Indy stores are good. Really good ones are a severe rarity.
Most go down the drain very fast, and are staffed by people with severe Biases in games.


Because you get unbiased game service at a GW store? Or the ability to play at all? You're not even allowed to play GW games that aren't 'the big 3' there.
Most go down the drain because people are not prepared to work hard at them and think they can open a shop and just play the games all day with their mates.


I've never had that problem, its always been the 'you can only play it if people can buy it" rule


It hasn't. You are wrong.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 18:44:18


Post by: hotsauceman1


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.


Are you seriously telling me you're complaining that going into a nonGW store is stressful because you encountered someone who tried to get you interested in a game they liked?
You are a delicate little snowflake aren't you.


Sigh, That is not what i meant, I hhave gone up to the counter before, have people snort at what i buy and say why something else is better.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 18:48:17


Post by: timetowaste85


Personally, GW went down the tubes for me earlier this year. I think this is a "by individual" situation. Each of us has to decide if GW is circling the drain, down the tubes, clogging the john or still gold-plated. Early this year, they were circling for me, but they finally flushed. Kinda stuck in the tube though, as I'd like to give them a second chance-but I'm sure it'll be a mistake.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 18:54:06


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.


Are you seriously telling me you're complaining that going into a nonGW store is stressful because you encountered someone who tried to get you interested in a game they liked?
You are a delicate little snowflake aren't you.


Sigh, That is not what i meant, I hhave gone up to the counter before, have people snort at what i buy and say why something else is better.


How many times has this happened to you and how did it affect you that you'd rather there were only GW stores?

Also, GW employees are not allowed to voice that opinion because everything they carry is their own product and therefore 'The Best In The World'...


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 19:02:46


Post by: Rainbow Dash


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.


Are you seriously telling me you're complaining that going into a nonGW store is stressful because you encountered someone who tried to get you interested in a game they liked?
You are a delicate little snowflake aren't you.


Testify wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

That's cos you're not in the UK, the average player is much younger there, GW in Britain made a move to focus it's efforts on the very young during the pokemon times in the UK, known to us older players as the Red Age or Age of Strife. I was selling GW stuff in a hobby shop around this time and was suddenly besieged by small children with mildly stressed mothers. To this day, GWs in the UK are basically glorified babysitting services and the one in Bristol center was certainly busy just around school closing time or on Saturdays when the mums would drop the kids off and then go get a starbucks and do their shopping. Lots and lots of little timmies over there.

I go to GW stores fairly regularly and I don't recognise the picture you paint.
Also, are you saying that no kids were into GW before "back in the day"? Or are you annoyed at children's parents paying for things? They can't work so they need to get money from somewhere.

Go to the GW in Bristol city center, on a Saturday afternoon, or after school finishes during the week.
The demographic for players was considerably older when I started playing, as an 11 year old I was decidedly young and the majority were about 18 and older through to middle age. I used to visit the GW in Beckenham quite a bit at that age and I was aware I was among much older people and they used to be entertained and encouraged me as a youngster because I was considered very young for starting the game. It was most definitely during the pokemon craze times that I saw GW move to target younger players and capture the parent pound, since the black teeshirt and long hair teen brigade just didn't have much cash.



Rainbow Dash wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I,m not sure more Indy stores are good. Really good ones are a severe rarity.
Most go down the drain very fast, and are staffed by people with severe Biases in games.


Because you get unbiased game service at a GW store? Or the ability to play at all? You're not even allowed to play GW games that aren't 'the big 3' there.
Most go down the drain because people are not prepared to work hard at them and think they can open a shop and just play the games all day with their mates.


I've never had that problem, its always been the 'you can only play it if people can buy it" rule


It hasn't. You are wrong.


okay so all those times I played Blood Bowl, in plain site of them, and chatted with me about it...was what, a dream?!
back home had a large gothic following too, i saw epic from time to time
never on busy nights, but the only games that I was ever told that were forbidden to be played were space hulk and dreadfleet due to the fact they were unsupported...


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 19:04:34


Post by: Serder


Personally, my local GW store is pretty awesome. While the staff has to adress customers before player (customer service 101) they have game nights 4 or 5 times a week (not sure because I only play 40k and they have game nights for LoTR and fantasy too). The manager also organises small tournaments.

They do lack game tables, but they are in a mall and so lack the space to add more tables. Overall, maybe I am in the lucky few that still has a GW where the staff aren't donkey-caves with old player and actually debate with veterans.

As far as their prices, I just go on eBay and find stuff NIB at 30% off.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 19:25:39


Post by: grayshadow87


maskedman504 wrote:


To the guy repping Warmahordes as cheaper, better models and more players:

I have spent $110 on Cygnar for 5 jacks; I have no where near a playable army, the plastic is so hard the mold lines need filed like pewter (can't scrape them with a knife) and the plastic does not take plastic cement. As for the model design, apples/oranges.

PP is hardly revolutionizing wargaming, but I do like their (or whoever they have branded as their) brushes.

I will play Warmachine, but to me, it is the M:tG of miniature wargaming.


While I can agree that Warmachine does have a bit more of a modular approach (which I presume is the source of your M:tG reference), I have to disagree with your assessment of the cost. Fifty bucks (37-ish if you go to Miniature Market) for a starter set and another $13-$15 for a set of Black 13th gun mages gets a 15 point army, which is a fully playable army. I hardly think that buying five jacks separately and lamenting about not having a playable army gives the game fair representation in terms of price.

Regarding the modelling complaints: I've never had the type of issue you discuss with the plastic being hard, so I can only chalk that up to differences in production runs or medium preferences. I can say that the issue of models not taking plastic cement isn't exactly a damning issue, since it's no real struggle to use super glue instead of plastic cement.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 20:23:00


Post by: Ugavine


 Peregrine wrote:


Eilif wrote:
WOTC does not have a great track record with mass battle (a relative term) miniatures games.


WOTC isn't stupid. They know when they've got a good product, and aren't going to make dramatic changes to the game and risk killing that product

Really? They managed to kill D&D Miniatures by totally changing it - twice!
They messed up Star Wars Miniatures, Heroscape and D&D.

As flawed and reckless as they sometimes seem, there's no guarantee that a company that buys GW is going to continue the miniatures game as we know it.


That's why I hope for them to be bought by WOTC. They have enough money to afford the purchase, but they know the gaming industry well enough to avoid damaging the game and make legitimate improvements.

WOTC. The company that can't sell Dungeons & Dragons to Role-Players.

WOTC The company that can't sell STAR WARS!

WOTC. The company that's couldn't even sell Heroscape successfully.

WOTC are the Grim Reaper of the gaming industry.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 20:28:49


Post by: hotsauceman1


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But if i go into a GW store to buy something, I know I'm buying Gw.
But i have been to stores where if i buy GW, they try to convert me to their game of preference.


Are you seriously telling me you're complaining that going into a nonGW store is stressful because you encountered someone who tried to get you interested in a game they liked?
You are a delicate little snowflake aren't you.


Sigh, That is not what i meant, I hhave gone up to the counter before, have people snort at what i buy and say why something else is better.


How many times has this happened to you and how did it affect you that you'd rather there were only GW stores?

Also, GW employees are not allowed to voice that opinion because everything they carry is their own product and therefore 'The Best In The World'...

I hate GW stores(they pester) What i am saying is that very often, Indy stores are formed by people with a love of a single game and begrudgingly carry others. I have seen quite a few like that.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 20:44:37


Post by: Eilif


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Sigh, That is not what i meant, I hhave gone up to the counter before, have people snort at what i buy and say why something else is better.


How many times has this happened to you and how did it affect you that you'd rather there were only GW stores?

Also, GW employees are not allowed to voice that opinion because everything they carry is their own product and therefore 'The Best In The World'...


Not sure which way you meant this, and I'm not a GW shopper anymore, but regards to GW employee opinions,.

When a customer is bringing something to the register an employee should shut the flap up and not belittle a customers choice. Having an opinion doesn't mean you should always tell a customer.

It's simple customer service The customer is always right. The time to offer advice is when the customer is looking for something or inquiring about the suitability of a pruchase. When the customer decides what they want it's the clerks job to shut the flap up cheerfully ring them up and send them out the door feeling good about their choice.

If they want to upsell - as in "hey would you like a ____ to go with that"- that's standard retail, but if an employee is so overcome with their own knowlege of the game that they want to break protocol and question them about their purchase they should stop, shut the flap up and proceed as described above.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 20:49:41


Post by: Sigvatr


 Ugavine wrote:
[
WOTC. The company that can't sell Dungeons & Dragons to Role-Players.

WOTC The company that can't sell STAR WARS!

WOTC. The company that's couldn't even sell Heroscape successfully.

WOTC are the Grim Reaper of the gaming industry.


So? In what way would it be worse for Warhammer 40k as a while? Right now, we're looking at a GW that withdraws from letting people play and focuses on being a retailer alone. GW's entire bunch of CEOs has to go...permanently.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 21:11:58


Post by: FarseerAndyMan


WOTC. The company that can't sell Dungeons & Dragons to Role-Players.

WOTC The company that can't sell STAR WARS!

WOTC. The company that's couldn't even sell Heroscape successfully.

WOTC are the Grim Reaper of the gaming industry.


I coudnt agree more.

I am speaking from personal experience here. WOTC would not be the saviour some folks think it would be. Ive said it before..If you thought GW flip-flopped on rules, WOTC has a page on its webiste devoted to get this...DAILY UPDATES of card rulings. DAILY??

How about this..Listen to the playtesters that you bring in and ban the cards they tell you are problematic. Dont rely on the crybabies who got their butts handed to them at a local tournament to write in about how broken this card is in tournament play. -- But they dont. Its always been an after the fact knee-jerk reaction.

So even though I agree with the idea that GW needs a good shake up in the management area, WOTC is not the answer. I think another poster said something about how the guys at PP are putting out a good publication in the form of "No Quarter". I would agree. There are good articles for gamers and modelers.

I couldnt say for sure, but the idea of jacking up prices to make up for lacking sales does seem to be what is going on. Some suggestions to the problem of customer loyalty...

1. LISTEN to the consumer. Hear what they are trying to say. This hobby is by choice. No-one twists your arm to play, so why is there such a wall between the makers and the players of the game? No feedback page and since the passing of the little "Mini-mags" like Citadel Journal, there is no more fan contribution. People like to be a part of something they can feel special about. How cool would it be to see one of your scenarios published in White Dwarf?

2. Respond in kind. I dont know about you guys, but I have to work hard for the money I make, and I want QUALITY and ATTENTION TO DETAIL. Dont send me a little box of smushy rubbery plastic-like stuff and call it the next best thing. Dont hype the new White Dwarf and then make it nothing more than new angles of photography. Dont force me to play an army that needs to be updated in order to be fun to play against. ( Tau )

3. Support Customer Loyalty. True, new gamers are vital to the hobby. But us old timers like to get a bone thrown to us every now and then too.

Just a few thoughts..





Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 23:04:13


Post by: Zoned


 Peregrine wrote:

That's just GW propaganda. MTG advertises, video games advertise, etc. Obviously you don't buy super bowl ads for 40k, but it's absolutely stupid not to advertise at gaming conventions (yes GW, there is a hobby outside of your "GW hobby" niche), in video game magazines, on websites related to things 40k players tend to be interested in, etc.


I go to a FLGS weekly, and they have a robust MTG/FNM crowd. Many years ago I saw a CCG magazine being sold in the store, but they haven't been carried in the locals FLGS for a long time. How does MTG advertise, exactly? I don't see commercials, or adds in the paper, or ads in popular magazines. I also don't see them running ads on websites that I frequent, and I'm a pretty hard core nerd.

By the way, video games are not a niche product. I'd say the vast majority of boys growing up are well aware of video games, so it makes sense to advertise them in main stream media.

Traditionally GW doesn't make it to conventions but that may be changing. They were recently at PAX Prime 2012.

http://www.giantbomb.com/pax-prime-2012/92-7349/games-workshop/52-628470/gamesworkshop01/51-2310250/



Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 23:21:11


Post by: Noir


Zoned wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:

That's just GW propaganda. MTG advertises, video games advertise, etc. Obviously you don't buy super bowl ads for 40k, but it's absolutely stupid not to advertise at gaming conventions (yes GW, there is a hobby outside of your "GW hobby" niche), in video game magazines, on websites related to things 40k players tend to be interested in, etc.


I go to a FLGS weekly, and they have a robust MTG/FNM crowd. Many years ago I saw a CCG magazine being sold in the store, but they haven't been carried in the locals FLGS for a long time. How does MTG advertise, exactly? I don't see commercials, or adds in the paper, or ads in popular magazines. I also don't see them running ads on websites that I frequent, and I'm a pretty hard core nerd.

By the way, video games are not a niche product. I'd say the vast majority of boys growing up are well aware of video games, so it makes sense to advertise them in main stream media.

Traditionally GW doesn't make it to conventions but that may be changing. They were recently at PAX Prime 2012.

http://www.giantbomb.com/pax-prime-2012/92-7349/games-workshop/52-628470/gamesworkshop01/51-2310250/



MTG, while not on TV or mags, are at every checkout counter in Walmart/Rate Aid and on and on. The advertise by being in are face as we go about are daily lives, GW you have to go out of your why to even learn the exist. Product placement is advertising, a very effective and been proving to work.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 23:28:31


Post by: Sean_OBrien


Zoned wrote:
How does MTG advertise, exactly?


They actually run TV commercials:

http://www.examiner.com/article/magic-the-gathering-commercials

As well as print ads in a variety of gaming and comic magazines from Wizard (no connection to WotC) to GamePro. I've also seen their ads in MaximumPC and a few others. Before WotC bought out TSR - they also ran ads in Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and I seem to recall seeing them in some of the other general gaming magazines of the 1990s (Polyhedron and what not...though I would need to check on those).

http://www.coloribus.com/adsarchive/prints/magic-the-gathering-warrior-10524405/

http://www.coloribus.com/adsarchive/prints/magic-the-gathering-bat-10524505/

http://addio.ecrater.com/p/13697924/magic-the-gathering-print-ad

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-MAGIC-THE-GATHERING-HOMELANDS-WIZARDS-OF-COAST-COMIC-PRINT-AD-2-PAGE-GUAY-/150771732295

http://www.coloribus.com/adsarchive/prints/magic-the-gathering-fire-10524455/

Dozens more can be found if you bother to look. WotC advertise the crap out of it. They also worked hard to get it in big box stores (made much easier once they got access to Hasbro's distribution network - so you can walk into any Target, Walmart, Toys R Us or other store across the country and get your fix of CCG crack rock.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 23:42:35


Post by: Ravenous D


 George Spiggott wrote:
Give it a couple of months, your local GW will have spontaneously generated a whole shop full of new 'little Timmys'. Either that or it will have another iteration of staff members.


You'd think so but thats not the case, GW moved all thier stores to destination type locations where you dont get foot traffic. The whole purpose of the mall stores was to recruit an ass ton of kids and then boot them to the bunker stores. After turning everything into the one man strip mall locations they were being held afloat entirely by its customer base, but screw that right? Make your customers feel like crap for being there and treat them like bags of money that arent allowed an opinion.

GW is killing itself with its own stores, hell the head trainer at GW north america walked into my local GW and said "there is too much a club house vibe here, you should kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base".



Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 23:51:37


Post by: Zoned


You know, now that you mention it, I have seen MTG at the checkout at Walmart.

Those were...interesting commercials. In 31 years I have never seen one on TV. Maybe it's a Canadian thing.

I notice that recently (about a year ago) both Wizard and GamePro have ceased publication.

I'm sure they run ads somewhere. I'm not into CCGs so I probably don't know where to look. But as a Fantasy/Sci-Fi nerd who reads comics, plays video games, plays with miniatures, I really can't say I've seen MTG well advertised.

Are they better advertised than GW? Sure. I imagine their market is considerably bigger as well (so many feeder CCGs like pokemon, digimon, other CCGs) so it's worth advertising a little more.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 23:53:39


Post by: Ravenous D


and you dont have to put hundreds of hours of labour into Magic cards


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/10 23:55:33


Post by: Zoned


Meh, if you don't like building and painting models, you're in the wrong hobby.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 00:53:22


Post by: Sean_OBrien


Zoned wrote:
Meh, if you don't like building and painting models, you're in the wrong hobby.


That may very well be - but when you analyze the future of GW, you have to consider things like that when selling products to the Burger King generation. They want it their way, right away.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 01:29:01


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 notprop wrote:
Rubbish, why is a shop the focus of your hobby?

I dare say you would complain if they tried to sell you something every time you went in as well.

25+ years on and I have never played a game in a shop (not counting WW and TTN for tournaments) and don't know anyone that does. In the UK we have plenty of locations for gaming - clubs. Not being able to use the 4x4 table at GW is the start of a new world not the end of it.

When you learn to ride a bike the stabilisers get removed.


It's a good thing the US has exactly the same culture and population density as the UK, then.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 01:34:41


Post by: Zoned


One of my issues right now with GW's business plan is the cost of entry. People don't know they're into miniatures until they've actually painted a model/played a decent sized game. It doesn't make sense to me to keep upping the price of their starter boxes, and the hobby starter set has all the necessary tools but is pretty expensive for a newbie.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 02:02:41


Post by: Ravenous D


Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

Dammit I just realized how much I just spent since 1992....


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 02:13:40


Post by: almostreal


The Balance sheet for GW looks good and has been improving....that's not a company going down the drain.

For every "Veteran" gamer that whines about having no place to hang out at...one of the previous posters hit the nail on the head. GW stores are GW's form of advertising and recruiting new hobbyists. They don't want you hanging out and gaming, that doesn't make them money. New hobbyists need EVERYTHING, veterans need little and are able to enjoy the hobby at home or at your FLGS who hold events that give out prizes and such.

GW has it exactly right IMO. If you are looking for a social club..look somewhere else. GW stores are retail outlets with a specific purpose. I know that's a change from the past and the balance sheet shows it's for the better...


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 03:19:32


Post by: kb305


 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

Dammit I just realized how much I just spent since 1992....


1500 to get in? not even close.

you could have a GIANT space marine army for less than 400 bucks if you use online discounters.

throw in another 100 bucks for brushes, paint, drills.

i just bought 5 boxes of assault marines to the tune of 120 buck US. brand new, free shipping.



Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 03:32:17


Post by: Zoned


 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.


That's quite an exaggeration there. I mean, it's expensive (too expensive for new gamers, IMHO) but not that expensive.

For a new gamer, I think this is quite reasonable for a Space Marine army (all prices Canadian MSRP)

Hobby stuff

Starter set ~ $120 (for the rulebook mainly, though you get some great minis too)
Hobby starter set -~ $70
Primer ~$20
Large Figure case ~$120
codex ~$50

=~$380

Models

2 Space Marine Battle forces ~ $310
Devastator box ~$42

=~$352

That's 40 tacticals, 10 assaults, 10 Scouts, 2 Rhinos, 5 Terminators, 5 Devastators (probably make a ten man squad with some tacticals) and 2 HQs. I'd probably just use the Librarian from the starter set.

So all in all ~$732 before tax.

Is it Spez Marinez? Yes, but let's be honest, most new players start with Marines. Is it optimal or tournament hyper competitive? No, but it's a solid start and fine to cut your teeth on.

Good gaming!


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 03:53:52


Post by: WarOne


You can also circumvent alot of that cost by investing in the "discounts" that are provided in the Starter Sets.

Two Dark Vengeance sets set you back about $160 USD (probably more Canadian). Some quick swap outs of the parts you do not need for trades and other things while lengthy, can produce the desired transports and other essentials to flesh out your army and make it somewhat competitive.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 04:49:59


Post by: Peregrine


 Ugavine wrote:
WOTC. The company that can't sell Dungeons & Dragons to Role-Players.


You mean the dominant position of D&D is just a lie? Sure, it had issues with 4th edition, but you know the difference between WOTC and GW? WOTC is actually listening to feedback from players for 5th edition.

And guess what: even the "D&D replacement" game that's become popular is just D&D 3rd edition with some house rules added. I think that's a pretty good sign, really.

WOTC The company that can't sell STAR WARS!


Only because they lost the license. Apparently the game was doing fairly well when it was killed off by license issues.



FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I am speaking from personal experience here. WOTC would not be the saviour some folks think it would be. Ive said it before..If you thought GW flip-flopped on rules, WOTC has a page on its webiste devoted to get this...DAILY UPDATES of card rulings. DAILY??


Except that:

1) There is no daily rule updates section. There used to be a daily "ask wizards" section which would cover existing rulings that people asked about, but that wasn't new information.

2) The most frequent rulings WOTC makes are clarifications, not changes. That is, a ruling that says in clear and simple terms what the rules already unambiguously settled, but in a convenient location on the card's database entry where it's easy to find. Functional changes in the rules are very rare.

3) WOTC's frequent rulings are a good thing. Where GW leaves things ambiguous and tells you to roll off to decide how to play it WOTC rules everything absolutely clearly, no matter how unlikely it is that the situation will ever happen in a real game. When you clearly address every single obscure interaction in a complex game it's inevitable that you're going to issue a lot of rulings, it's just the price you pay for having absolutely unambiguous rules where it's impossible to create a situation that isn't explicitly covered by the rules.

How about this..Listen to the playtesters that you bring in and ban the cards they tell you are problematic. Dont rely on the crybabies who got their butts handed to them at a local tournament to write in about how broken this card is in tournament play. -- But they dont. Its always been an after the fact knee-jerk reaction.


Err, what are you talking about? WOTC rarely bans cards, and only after extensive documentation at high-level tournaments that the metagame is broken. They never ban things just because people whined about losing to it at their local tournament.

Also, "just listen to your playtesters" is stupid. WOTC does listen to their playtesters, but no realistic amount of playtesting can ever be 100% perfect. Occasionally a metagame that complex will go in a direction that nobody anticipated, and mistakes will slip through. But considering the number of cards they publish those mistakes are extremely rare.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 07:01:55


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I played in stores when I was like 11 - the only GW in the whole area. I brought what painted minis I had on Thursday Games Night and played random games against random people. I didn't do it often (because when you're 11 you can't drive yourself to the shops), and eventually that stopped and I played in one of three places (my place, or one of my other two friends that played's places). The next time I played in a GW store - and weirdly I can remember it perfectly - was when a bunch of friends just got into it (as I was starting Uni). Played in the GW store three times. And that was it.

So yeah, originally I was one of the kids swimming around in the place (but not as young as the youngest kids just left there by their parents), and when I grew I up I saw all the kids milling about. I used to actively avoid the place during School Holidays (and you could tell the staff wanted to as well).

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
It's a good thing the US has exactly the same culture and population density as the UK, then.




Ok, first post to make me really laugh in a while.

Thanks Bob.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 08:12:07


Post by: Testify


Ravenous D wrote:
GW is killing itself with its own stores, hell the head trainer at GW north america walked into my local GW and said "there is too much a club house vibe here, you should kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base".

When I got into warhammer again recently, the "regulars" were seriously offputting. They just squat in games workshop like a jungle mammal flinging its gak at passers by. The staff do their best to cater to people who actually buy stuff, but the stores would undoubtidly be a lot more popular if they cleared out the regulars.

Ravenous D wrote:Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

Hmm.

Widescreen tv.
Xbox 360
A game a month
XBox live membership

Yeah, no. Games Workshop really isn't that expensive, and I say that as someone on minimum wage. If you can't afford luxuries, don't buy them.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 08:12:55


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Testify... honestly. GW is expensive, and increasingly more expensive. You have to be blind not to see the gouging on the Hobbit minis.

You're not blind are you?


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 09:10:35


Post by: Sigvatr


Bad comparison, testify. Just some points:

a) A XBox 360 is capable of more than just gaming.

b) Same goes for the tv.

c) You don't need to buy another XBox, another Widescreen TV etc. for multiplayer (most of the time).

Video game prices did not rise by a lot, they have been really stable across all the years (despite them certainly being shorter, but that's another issue) whereas GW went HOLYBEDSHEET (hidden pun) through the roof with their price increases...as our ever-spinning friend already pointed out.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 09:41:25


Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy


Zoned wrote:

So all in all ~$732 before tax.


That's still...quite a lot. When I got into WM/H, i bought a Starter box, a can of Primer, a paint set and some metals (it turned out all my old GW paints had dried out due to storage conditions), a brush, three units with an UA and a couple of solos. I didn't really need the rulebook due to the Quick Start Rules in the box and the cards. In modern prices, that would have cost me around 350 bucks, and that was in the Mk1 meta when Infantrymachine was king, with a model-intensive army, and I couldn't use two of the jacks in the basic set. I painted the whole shebang up and played in a beginner's 1-list tourney with it three months later. Placed second and had tons of fun. That's what got me into wargaming again. For an additional 150 bucks, I could, and did, seriously play in tournaments.

When I got into Infinity two years ago, I bought a starter box and four blisters plus the rulebook. Turns out I could have saved myself the trouble of buying the rulebook, but all told it came to around 200 bucks in modern prices. A lot of effort was needed to get hold of decent terrain for the game, but I was still well into it for perhaps 300 bucks if you include the paints I would have to buy if I was a newbie.

This year's Dropzone Commander bundle cost me around 300 dollars including the rulebook (minus paints, rulers, etc)

I don't think I have spent 300 dollars so far on Spartan Games stuff and I have oodles of miniatures for Firestorm Armada and Dystopian Wars.

I could definitely see a cost almost twice the most expensive startup experience (counting the figure case as optional) I have had balk me at buying when I was on a budget as I was back in 2006-2007.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 10:54:08


Post by: Alkasyn


 Ugavine wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:


Eilif wrote:
WOTC does not have a great track record with mass battle (a relative term) miniatures games.


WOTC isn't stupid. They know when they've got a good product, and aren't going to make dramatic changes to the game and risk killing that product

Really? They managed to kill D&D Miniatures by totally changing it - twice!
They messed up Star Wars Miniatures, Heroscape and D&D.

As flawed and reckless as they sometimes seem, there's no guarantee that a company that buys GW is going to continue the miniatures game as we know it.


That's why I hope for them to be bought by WOTC. They have enough money to afford the purchase, but they know the gaming industry well enough to avoid damaging the game and make legitimate improvements.

WOTC. The company that can't sell Dungeons & Dragons to Role-Players.

WOTC The company that can't sell STAR WARS!

WOTC. The company that's couldn't even sell Heroscape successfully.

WOTC are the Grim Reaper of the gaming industry.


Agreed, WOTC made Dnd look bad, and I thought that game would NEVER die.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 10:59:51


Post by: Sigvatr


What DnD? I still consider Pathfinder to be the actual D&D...

/e: Darn, off topic.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 11:10:01


Post by: notprop


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 notprop wrote:
Rubbish, why is a shop the focus of your hobby?

I dare say you would complain if they tried to sell you something every time you went in as well.

25+ years on and I have never played a game in a shop (not counting WW and TTN for tournaments) and don't know anyone that does. In the UK we have plenty of locations for gaming - clubs. Not being able to use the 4x4 table at GW is the start of a new world not the end of it.

When you learn to ride a bike the stabilisers get removed.


It's a good thing the US has exactly the same culture and population density as the UK, then.


It's a good thing the US isn't the be all and end all of everything, then.

If USers need more feeding from the teat before they can walk then fine. We only come with our own perspectives to the table, you also bring being a smart arse it would appear. It all adds to Dakkas many coloured tapestry.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 11:10:53


Post by: Alkasyn


I consider Forgotten Realms to be the true DnD setting, and that was ruined by WOTC in the last edition. I agree that if you are looking for a saviour tobring back the fun to GW, WOTC are not it.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 11:26:01


Post by: Backfire


 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.



I have two full armies (plus one BFG fleet) and I don't think I've spent $1500 total even including paints.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 11:29:26


Post by: Sigvatr


Backfire wrote:
 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.



I have two full armies (plus one BFG fleet) and I don't think I've spent $1500 total even including paints.


Spent about 200-250€ (~300$) for my Necron army at 1850 points. So yeah, 1500$ is WAY over the top for most armies. IG might be close(r) to that though.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 11:31:19


Post by: Forbino


Find or start a local gaming club or hobby store, rather than your local GW. Us the looking for a game section of all the boards like Dakka to find players. Travel to just outside of your local area for tournaments to meet more people. There are lots of ways to grow your personal gaming group without worrying about the GW store and its crowd. Heck, branch out to one or two other game systems and you'll find a lot of cross over.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 12:21:23


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

Dammit I just realized how much I just spent since 1992....


fething hell, what have you bought!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:
D&D is very well known, and I doubt that you can say that WOTC is not selling it.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 13:54:20


Post by: spaceelf


 Testify wrote:
Ravenous D wrote:
GW is killing itself with its own stores, hell the head trainer at GW north america walked into my local GW and said "there is too much a club house vibe here, you should kick out all your regulars and start a new customer base".

When I got into warhammer again recently, the "regulars" were seriously offputting. They just squat in games workshop like a jungle mammal flinging its gak at passers by. The staff do their best to cater to people who actually buy stuff, but the stores would undoubtidly be a lot more popular if they cleared out the regulars.


Tabletop wargames are a social hobby. You need other people to play with. If you can't find people who you like to play with, then your stint in the hobby will be a short one.

Stores play an important role in the social aspect of the hobby. They provide a place to play, as well as a place to meet people to play. From my own personal experience, when there is not a local store, I do not play or purchase product.

In the USA, local clubs are not common, and in many instances are not possible. There is no place for the club to meet. Just try asking a church to host a 40k club. Public schools around here would not host one.

Meeting people online to play a game is simply not an option for kids. It is much too dangerous. Seriously, would you invite a stranger who you met online to your house to play a game?

Kicking regulars out of FLGS kills the community. Without a community there are few people to play and the store dies. There is nothing sadder than an empty game store. (Maybe this is why GW is changing their stores around. Their stores are empty, so they want to appear like everything is normal so they do not devote space to play.)







Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 14:44:39


Post by: Testify


spaceelf wrote:
Tabletop wargames are a social hobby. You need other people to play with. If you can't find people who you like to play with, then your stint in the hobby will be a short one.

Stores play an important role in the social aspect of the hobby. They provide a place to play, as well as a place to meet people to play. From my own personal experience, when there is not a local store, I do not play or purchase product.

I already have friends thanks, and I have no desire to play 40k with the average player no offense like.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Testify... honestly. GW is expensive, and increasingly more expensive. You have to be blind not to see the gouging on the Hobbit minis.

You're not blind are you?

I don't know what "gouging" is but as I've said, if you can't afford life's little luxuries then don't buy them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sigvatr wrote:
Bad comparison, testify. Just some points:

a) A XBox 360 is capable of more than just gaming.

b) Same goes for the tv.

c) You don't need to buy another XBox, another Widescreen TV etc. for multiplayer (most of the time).

Video game prices did not rise by a lot, they have been really stable across all the years (despite them certainly being shorter, but that's another issue) whereas GW went HOLYBEDSHEET (hidden pun) through the roof with their price increases...as our ever-spinning friend already pointed out.

40k lasts a hell of a lot longer and is much less likely to get you bored. Most people will get through a £45 game way before they even paint £45 of minatures, let alone game with them.

The only real advantage a console has over 40k is the ease of playing with other people. If I were living on my own i'd never consider getting a console over 40k, whereas if I lived with someone (or had friends round a lot) I'd probably get a console.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 15:10:34


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Testify wrote:


H.B.M.C. wrote:Testify... honestly. GW is expensive, and increasingly more expensive. You have to be blind not to see the gouging on the Hobbit minis.

You're not blind are you?

I don't know what "gouging" is but as I've said, if you can't afford life's little luxuries then don't buy them.



I hear this gakky answer frequently. It's usually touted by children who don't actually work for a living, perhaps you are a child living with your parents? I think this may well be the case given that you've never heard of price gouging?

I'll give you the same answer I've given this glib nonsense in the past.

Objecting to something being priced over it's perceived worth is not equal to be priced out of the hobby. Being able to afford something is not the same as deciding that a company is elevating it's prices cynically.

And your comparison to a gaming console or television or restored WW2 tank or cocaine habit are not as relevant as this:

Compare like for like miniatures with Mantic, Wagames Factory, Warlord Games et al.

So, Games Workshop plastic chaos marauders: $2.19 each. Warlord Games plastic ancient britons: $1.00 each. Wargames Factory plastic celt warband warriors: $0.62 each.

That's a decidedly fairer and more logical comparison than 'an army and the extra stuff you need' vs 'stock car racing'...


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 15:16:53


Post by: Kanluwen


"Like for like" miniatures with Mantic, Wargames Factory, Warlord games et al does not take into account the "brand label" or the widespread availability in brick and mortar storefronts.

Pending the outcome of the whole CH v. GW case, there's still a perception by GW and their fanbase that only GW can create "plastic Chaos marauders" since the concept 'belongs' to GW.
There's no such protection for "ancient Britons/Celts", just like there is no such protection for WWII American infantry in 15mm scale if depicting them as historically accurate.

Edit note:
I'm not saying it justifies the prices, before someone jumps in and starts with the "white knight" garbage. I'm simply saying that "like for like" is a great theoretical, but it cannot necessarily be applied with ease.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 15:25:21


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Kanluwen wrote:
"Like for like" miniatures with Mantic, Wargames Factory, Warlord games et al does not take into account the "brand label" or the widespread availability in brick and mortar storefronts.

Pending the outcome of the whole CH v. GW case, there's still a perception by GW and their fanbase that only GW can create "plastic Chaos marauders" since the concept 'belongs' to GW.
There's no such protection for "ancient Britons/Celts", just like there is no such protection for WWII American infantry in 15mm scale if depicting them as historically accurate.

Edit note:
I'm not saying it justifies the prices, before someone jumps in and starts with the "white knight" garbage. I'm simply saying that "like for like" is a great theoretical, but it cannot necessarily be applied with ease.


Kan...

It also doesn't take into account the far greater distribution, sales and in house production facilities that GW possess, nor their greater buying power as a far larger corporation. As the 'big fish' we could expect their prices to be the most competitive.

And it's a far better comparison than was being used prior to my post...


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 15:29:03


Post by: Kanluwen


Bad examples don't excuse bad examples, MGS!

And while the points you raise are valid, so is the point that GW's rather hefty catalog of models and their status as a PLC prevents them from changing their sculpts that often.

Unless it's Space Marines. Because Space Marines sell like crack cocaine.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 15:34:16


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Kanluwen wrote:
Bad examples don't excuse bad examples, MGS!

And while the points you raise are valid, so is the point that GW's rather hefty catalog of models and their status as a PLC prevents them from changing their sculpts that often.

Unless it's Space Marines. Because Space Marines sell like crack cocaine.


They are not bad examples Kanluwen, comparing miniatures with miniatures from other companies is a far and valid comparison. Adding in factors like brick and mortar stores is a nonsense, especially given that in many of them you can no longer game in them and their purpose is now entirely driven by the sale, not providing an gaming facility.

And what the hell does PLC status and changing sculpts have to do with their prices? Not changes sculpts should keep the prices down as there is even less R&D/design involved.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 15:39:15


Post by: Sigvatr


 Testify wrote:

40k lasts a hell of a lot longer and is much less likely to get you bored. Most people will get through a £45 game way before they even paint £45 of minatures, let alone game with them.

The only real advantage a console has over 40k is the ease of playing with other people. If I were living on my own i'd never consider getting a console over 40k, whereas if I lived with someone (or had friends round a lot) I'd probably get a console.


I absolutely hate painting miniatures with a passion. It's one of the main reasons why I play Necrons - they're easy to paint. I am a general, not an artist. If I trusted Chinese companies, I'd send my miniatures in and let them be painted by Chinese kids for a few bucks. It's that much that I hate painting. I love converting models, but the main reason I play is...playing. And painting suuuuuuuuuuucks. I'd not even paint stuff if I got paid for it. Furthermore...good games last for a good 20-50 hours. Not that CoD single player crap, but RPGs like Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, Knights of the Old Republic etc.

You need to be aware of the fact that modern games mostly rely on the multiplayer part as well...I am looking at about 400 hours of DotA 2...and I paid 0$. Baldur's Gate collection is ...30€? KOTOR collection is 15€ for 75+ hours. Skyrim...Fallout...my brother plays a lot of Black Ops 3. Currenty looking at 100+ hours for 60€. So much for value comparisons


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 15:41:14


Post by: Kanluwen


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Bad examples don't excuse bad examples, MGS!

And while the points you raise are valid, so is the point that GW's rather hefty catalog of models and their status as a PLC prevents them from changing their sculpts that often.

Unless it's Space Marines. Because Space Marines sell like crack cocaine.


They are not bad examples Kanluwen, comparing miniatures with miniatures from other companies is a far and valid comparison. Adding in factors like brick and mortar stores is a nonsense, especially given that in many of them you can no longer game in them and their purpose is now entirely driven by the sale, not providing an gaming facility.

I didn't say strictly GW's B&M shops. Should have clarified, that's my bad.

It is rare to find an independent shop that does not stock GW's products here in the US. It is even more rare to find one which does not have some kind of active GW community, whether it is Specialist Games or 40k/Fantasy(usually 40k though).
It is only recently that a shop I've been frequented began to stock Mantic's products. The reason being that prior to Warpath's "Corporation" line, there was no interest. The same with their "Kings of War" line and the Elves+Dwarves. The Undead would have sold, but stocking an entire range just to sell one particular boxed set is not really feasible for many independents.


And what the hell does PLC status and changing sculpts have to do with their prices? Not changes sculpts should keep the prices down as there is even less R&D/design involved.

PLC status means that they have a "responsibility" to their stockholders before the customers.
Changing sculpts has to do with prices because inevitably, in any price based discussion people point towards the older models which the player base is being charged an arm and a leg for.

The Chaos Marauders plastics are a good example of that. In the grand scheme of things, they are rather pants sculpts. When they came out that was a different story--but they, like many other plastic kits, have not aged well.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 15:52:45


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Kanluwen wrote:

I didn't say strictly GW's B&M shops. Should have clarified, that's my bad.


What does this have to do with GW's miniatures being priced so high?
 Kanluwen wrote:

It is rare to find an independent shop that does not stock GW's products here in the US. It is even more rare to find one which does not have some kind of active GW community, whether it is Specialist Games or 40k/Fantasy(usually 40k though).
It is only recently that a shop I've been frequented began to stock Mantic's products. The reason being that prior to Warpath's "Corporation" line, there was no interest. The same with their "Kings of War" line and the Elves+Dwarves. The Undead would have sold, but stocking an entire range just to sell one particular boxed set is not really feasible for many independents.

Again, I've said that the far greater sales and distribution can be said to enable GW to lower prices, not raise them, so what does your example have to do with GW miniatures prices being so high?
 Kanluwen wrote:

PLC status means that they have a "responsibility" to their stockholders before the customers.
Changing sculpts has to do with prices because inevitably, in any price based discussion people point towards the older models which the player base is being charged an arm and a leg for.

Do you have any proof that lowering the prices would see a reduction in corporate prices? Because I believe it would see a return to the hobby of priced out gamers and an increase in start up hobbyists. Thereby increasing the company's profit and benefiting their shareholders. I selected the marauders as 'near' in shape and aesthetic to the 'barbarians from the other companies. The age is irrelevant.
 Kanluwen wrote:

The Chaos Marauders plastics are a good example of that. In the grand scheme of things, they are rather pants sculpts. When they came out that was a different story--but they, like many other plastic kits, have not aged well.

The age of the sculpts is not relevant, the aesthetic is not relevant. I could have chosen imperial greatswords but they the 'they are elite' or 'some other flimsy horsegak' would have been deployed. Stop fixating on which unit I chose and look at what I was pointing out.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 15:58:04


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


Why do they charge models at such a high price?

Because they know that their gak is addictive to us kewl d00ds and because we
fething BUY THEIR gak UP


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 16:05:59


Post by: TheContortionist


Griever wrote:
Sold all my GW stuff, got into Warmachine and also made enough money to buy christmas presents this year.

Not looking back. WarmaHordes is cheaper to get into, quicker to play, has a better tighter ruleset, makes better models, has a more appealing release schedule, and more people play it.


don't tempt me.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 16:09:42


Post by: Kanluwen


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

I didn't say strictly GW's B&M shops. Should have clarified, that's my bad.


What does this have to do with GW's miniatures being priced so high?

The same thing that has to do with generic store brand aspirin being cheaper than a brand name like Advil?

They up the price because people fixate on brand recognition.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It is rare to find an independent shop that does not stock GW's products here in the US. It is even more rare to find one which does not have some kind of active GW community, whether it is Specialist Games or 40k/Fantasy(usually 40k though).
It is only recently that a shop I've been frequented began to stock Mantic's products. The reason being that prior to Warpath's "Corporation" line, there was no interest. The same with their "Kings of War" line and the Elves+Dwarves. The Undead would have sold, but stocking an entire range just to sell one particular boxed set is not really feasible for many independents.

Again, I've said that the far greater sales and distribution can be said to enable GW to lower prices, not raise them, so what does your example have to do with GW miniatures prices being so high?

Greater sales and distribution can be said about any number of high priced products compared to their generic counterparts with the same components/ingredients.

The generic brands keep their prices low by outsourcing production and distribution. They do not maintain their own facilities and do not have to pay that upkeep, which goes up when production/distribution costs go up.

They will reach a tipping point eventually where they have to start up their own production lines as the demand exceeds the supply that their producer can reasonably make without closing out the other generics who outsource to them.


 Kanluwen wrote:

PLC status means that they have a "responsibility" to their stockholders before the customers.
Changing sculpts has to do with prices because inevitably, in any price based discussion people point towards the older models which the player base is being charged an arm and a leg for.

Do you have any proof that lowering the prices would see a reduction in corporate prices? Because I believe it would see a return to the hobby of priced out gamers and an increase in start up hobbyists. Thereby increasing the company's profit and benefiting their shareholders.

That gets stated every year. It's speculation. It seems sensible, but given the rather large secondary market and the "revolving door hobbyists" who start up and then flog their stuff on eBay/Craigslist/whatever, the "priced out gamers" usually come back at some point via that direction.
I selected the marauders as 'near' in shape and aesthetic to the 'barbarians from the other companies. The age is irrelevant.

Age might be irrelevant, but the fact that they're "Chaos Marauders" is not.
It comes down, again, to brand recognition. Someone who is just getting into the game and is ill-informed will not come into a shop asking for "Wargames Factory Ancient Britons" to create their Marauders.

They'll come in asking for Chaos Marauders.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Chaos Marauders plastics are a good example of that. In the grand scheme of things, they are rather pants sculpts. When they came out that was a different story--but they, like many other plastic kits, have not aged well.

The age of the sculpts is not relevant, the aesthetic is not relevant. I could have chosen imperial greatswords but they the 'they are elite' or 'some other flimsy horsegak' would have been deployed.

Oh no, Imperial Greatswords are stupidly priced. The only Greatswords I had for my planned Empire army were those I got in the two Battalions I bought. I had no plans to buy more, especially once they removed the Greatswords from the Battalion.
Stop fixating on which unit I chose and look at what I was pointing out.

The reason for high prices is "brand recognition" and a perception by GW that people will keep buying at these prices.

Because people do keep buying at these prices. Whether you buy from an online retailer who discounts or from a GW shop that has no discounts, GW gets their blood from a stone.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 16:13:56


Post by: Bossk_Hogg


 Ugavine wrote:
STOP THE PRESS
Games Workshop shops are shops that want to sell their products shocker!

I don't play in stores, don't want to, never wanted to, don't understand why people want to.

My local GWs are more than a FLGS than most LGS I have been to with great friendly staff. Maybe I just have good GW stores and have only been to poor games stores, but that's how it is.

To me a GW store, or any gaming store, is exactly that, a retail outlet for their products. I go their to buy things.


So you intentionally toss away 20 - 25% of your money? I don't understand buying at retail if you're not going to play there. You may as well get it from any discount online store.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 16:18:57


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


Thank you Kanluwen,

Two pages of circular argument to end up agreeing with my original points.

well done...


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 16:26:04


Post by: Kanluwen


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Thank you Kanluwen,

Two pages of circular argument to end up agreeing with my original points.

well done...

I didn't actually get that from your "original points", so perhaps it was not as clear as you thought?

What I got from your point was that "X and Y are cheaper than Z" in a post about "price gouging"(which is primarily applied to raising the prices of necessary goods during emergency situations).

We can agree though that Greatswords are stupidly priced and whoever thought of that price should be slapped with a carp, I hope?


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 16:58:11


Post by: Ugavine


Bossk_Hogg wrote:
 Ugavine wrote:
STOP THE PRESS
Games Workshop shops are shops that want to sell their products shocker!

I don't play in stores, don't want to, never wanted to, don't understand why people want to.

My local GWs are more than a FLGS than most LGS I have been to with great friendly staff. Maybe I just have good GW stores and have only been to poor games stores, but that's how it is.

To me a GW store, or any gaming store, is exactly that, a retail outlet for their products. I go their to buy things.


So you intentionally toss away 20 - 25% of your money? I don't understand buying at retail if you're not going to play there. You may as well get it from any discount online store.

Peace of mind really, too many lost or missing parcels. One lost parcel and there goes more than any savings made. And I've lost more than one parcel.

That and GW is just 10 minutes walk from my house, better than waiting 10 days. The guys in the local GW are great too, so I don't mind popping in for a chat about the game.

And if you want to talk tossing away money, I drive a 37 year old Land Rover that does 14 miles to the gallon on - a good day.
I've said it before on the forums though, in general I don't think GW prices are that bad for the product. I just tossed 100 quid on a case of Heroclix the weekend which by comparison was nowhere near the value for money.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 18:50:40


Post by: Noir


 Ugavine wrote:
Bossk_Hogg wrote:
 Ugavine wrote:
STOP THE PRESS
Games Workshop shops are shops that want to sell their products shocker!

I don't play in stores, don't want to, never wanted to, don't understand why people want to.

My local GWs are more than a FLGS than most LGS I have been to with great friendly staff. Maybe I just have good GW stores and have only been to poor games stores, but that's how it is.

To me a GW store, or any gaming store, is exactly that, a retail outlet for their products. I go their to buy things.


So you intentionally toss away 20 - 25% of your money? I don't understand buying at retail if you're not going to play there. You may as well get it from any discount online store.

Peace of mind really, too many lost or missing parcels. One lost parcel and there goes more than any savings made. And I've lost more than one parcel.

That and GW is just 10 minutes walk from my house, better than waiting 10 days. The guys in the local GW are great too, so I don't mind popping in for a chat about the game.

And if you want to talk tossing away money, I drive a 37 year old Land Rover that does 14 miles to the gallon on - a good day.
I've said it before on the forums though, in general I don't think GW prices are that bad for the product. I just tossed 100 quid on a case of Heroclix the weekend which by comparison was nowhere near the value for money.


Wow do UK online store suck that much? I order form the Warstore, had 1 lost package out of 20ish, got the replacement 5 days later.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 20:55:20


Post by: Testify


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

I hear this gakky answer frequently. It's usually touted by children who don't actually work for a living, [b]perhaps you are a child living with your parents?[b] I think this may well be the case given that you've never heard of price gouging?

I travel 3 hours a day to work 40 hours a week in a factory making pizzas mate.

But call me little timmy if it makes your tantrum over prices any easier. You're the one who can't cope with the concept of inflation without inflating it with corporate greed, I think maybe you need to grow up, huh?


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:14:22


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Testify wrote:

I travel 3 hours a day to work 40 hours a week in a factory making pizzas mate.

Ah, my sympathies, that would likely make me a sour little snowflake as well.
 Testify wrote:

But call me little timmy if it makes your tantrum over prices any easier. You're the one who can't cope with the concept of inflation without inflating it with corporate greed, I think maybe you need to grow up, huh?

Your reading comprehension is lacking.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:21:08


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Severely lacking, especially if you think this has anything to do with inflation.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:24:10


Post by: Testify


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 Testify wrote:

I travel 3 hours a day to work 40 hours a week in a factory making pizzas mate.

Ah, my sympathies, that would likely make me a sour little snowflake as well.

I'm a sour little snowflake? I know how much money I can spend on luxeries, so I spend it. You're the one who whinges that prices go up. Welcome to the real world.

I've also reported you for condescending attitude. Look down on people who do the work in your society at your peril.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:26:34


Post by: Azreal13


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Severely lacking, especially if you think this has anything to do with inflation.


I've crossed paths with Testify a bit recently. My enduring impression is that he doesn't let his ignorance on a topic get in the way of having a jolly good opinion about it!


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:27:17


Post by: Testify


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Severely lacking, especially if you think this has anything to do with inflation.

Hey what's plastic made of?

And what's used to heat the stores?



Seriously grow. The feth. Up. Prices go up, deal with it.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:27:32


Post by: Ravenous D


Zoned wrote:
 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.


That's quite an exaggeration there. I mean, it's expensive (too expensive for new gamers, IMHO) but not that expensive.

For a new gamer, I think this is quite reasonable for a Space Marine army (all prices Canadian MSRP)

Hobby stuff

Starter set ~ $120 (for the rulebook mainly, though you get some great minis too)
Hobby starter set -~ $70
Primer ~$20
Large Figure case ~$120
codex ~$50

=~$380

Models

2 Space Marine Battle forces ~ $310
Devastator box ~$42

=~$352

That's 40 tacticals, 10 assaults, 10 Scouts, 2 Rhinos, 5 Terminators, 5 Devastators (probably make a ten man squad with some tacticals) and 2 HQs. I'd probably just use the Librarian from the starter set.

So all in all ~$732 before tax.

Is it Spez Marinez? Yes, but let's be honest, most new players start with Marines. Is it optimal or tournament hyper competitive? No, but it's a solid start and fine to cut your teeth on.

Good gaming!


kb305 wrote:
 Ravenous D wrote:
Its about $1500 to get into the gw hobby, and another $1000 a year for a new army/books/paints.

Dammit I just realized how much I just spent since 1992....


1500 to get in? not even close.

you could have a GIANT space marine army for less than 400 bucks if you use online discounters.

throw in another 100 bucks for brushes, paint, drills.

i just bought 5 boxes of assault marines to the tune of 120 buck US. brand new, free shipping.



Oh Dakka, always an exception.

According to GW average person spends $1500 on warhammer in their first year. If Im wrong by all means tell me, I'll call up my old regional managers and yell at them for lying to me when I worked for the great enemy


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:32:24


Post by: Sigvatr


I don't care for what GW says unless they come up with an actual listing of what their "average customer" buys in order to achieve the 1500$ goal.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:33:03


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Testify wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 Testify wrote:

I travel 3 hours a day to work 40 hours a week in a factory making pizzas mate.

Ah, my sympathies, that would likely make me a sour little snowflake as well.

I'm a sour little snowflake? I know how much money I can spend on luxeries, so I spend it. You're the one who whinges that prices go up. Welcome to the real world.

I've also reported you for condescending attitude. Look down on people who do the work in your society at your peril.



Ah, well as long as we've established 'if you don't like it, get out of the hobby' isn't a condescending attitude...

And all of this continues to divert away from what I showed you earlier, other companies produce plastic model soldiers for considerably less.

And I don't look down on people who do the work in my society, I only look down on purposely obtuse halfwits who don't bother to read other people's posts before lambasting them, patronizing them and thinking they can do all that without others returning the favor. You aren't one of those people, are you?


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:33:05


Post by: Sigvatr


 azreal13 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Severely lacking, especially if you think this has anything to do with inflation.


I've crossed paths with Testify a bit recently. My enduring impression is that he doesn't let his ignorance on a topic get in the way of having a jolly good opinion about it!


Exalted for truth


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:33:24


Post by: Bossk_Hogg


 Ugavine wrote:
Bossk_Hogg wrote:
 Ugavine wrote:
STOP THE PRESS
Games Workshop shops are shops that want to sell their products shocker!

I don't play in stores, don't want to, never wanted to, don't understand why people want to.

My local GWs are more than a FLGS than most LGS I have been to with great friendly staff. Maybe I just have good GW stores and have only been to poor games stores, but that's how it is.

To me a GW store, or any gaming store, is exactly that, a retail outlet for their products. I go their to buy things.


So you intentionally toss away 20 - 25% of your money? I don't understand buying at retail if you're not going to play there. You may as well get it from any discount online store.

Peace of mind really, too many lost or missing parcels. One lost parcel and there goes more than any savings made. And I've lost more than one parcel.

That and GW is just 10 minutes walk from my house, better than waiting 10 days. The guys in the local GW are great too, so I don't mind popping in for a chat about the game.

And if you want to talk tossing away money, I drive a 37 year old Land Rover that does 14 miles to the gallon on - a good day.
I've said it before on the forums though, in general I don't think GW prices are that bad for the product. I just tossed 100 quid on a case of Heroclix the weekend which by comparison was nowhere near the value for money.


Gotcha. Once bitten, twice shy. I've always had good luck w online orders, but since I pay with paypal, its covered anyways. I dont mind the wait, because hey, whats waiting a few more days when I've got a pile of metal thats been going to be painted "any day now" from years ago.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:33:38


Post by: Azreal13


 Testify wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Severely lacking, especially if you think this has anything to do with inflation.

Hey what's plastic made of?

And what's used to heat the stores?



Seriously grow. The feth. Up. Prices go up, deal with it.


Dude, seriously, stay away from economics.

Fuel increases affect inflation, everything goes up when fuel goes up and that is reflected.

GW regularly increases it's prices well in excess of inflation, that is the point.

Yes, plastic may become slightly more expensive, but it would make such a small increase per sprue it would be almost impossible to quantify.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:35:00


Post by: Testify


 Sigvatr wrote:
I don't care for what GW says unless they come up with an actual listing of what their "average customer" buys in order to achieve the 1500$ goal.

$1500 a year is $28, or £17 a week. That's a box set every fortnight, without taking into account paints and supplies. Seems reasonable to me at face value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 azreal13 wrote:

Dude, seriously, stay away from economics.

Fuel increases affect inflation, everything goes up when fuel goes up and that is reflected.

GW regularly increases it's prices well in excess of inflation, that is the point.

Yes, plastic may become slightly more expensive, but it would make such a small increase per sprue it would be almost impossible to quantify.

So the fact that oil and gas prices have increased roughly in line with GW prices is a coincidence?

Also milk/bread/meat/eggs have gone up as much, probably more in fact, than GW have. Do you even live in the real world dude? Prices are going up everywhere.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:46:23


Post by: Azreal13


testify wrote:
So the fact that oil and gas prices have increased roughly in line with GW prices is a coincidence?

Also milk/bread/meat/eggs have gone up as much, probably more in fact, than GW have. Do you even live in the real world dude? Prices are going up everywhere.


Real world?!

I've been signed off work with a chronic, incurable disease for the last 5 months, trying to make things work on benefits. Don't sit there accusing me of not living in the real world when your own knowledge (as, if I piece together from some of your other posts correctly, an early twenties stoner who possibly still lives at home, job or no job) of real world economics is breath takingly poor.

An increase in the cost of raw materials does not translate to the same increase in price of the finished goods.

Inflation is the measure of price increases down to such things as price increases of fuel etc and increases out of line with inflation, special circumstances notwithstanding, is nearly always for profit.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:48:15


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Testify wrote:

So the fact that oil and gas prices have increased roughly in line with GW prices is a coincidence?

Also milk/bread/meat/eggs have gone up as much, probably more in fact, than GW have. Do you even live in the real world dude? Prices are going up everywhere.


And yet, other manufacturers of plastic miniatures have not increased at the same rate, why are they not all bankrupt?




Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:54:39


Post by: Manchu


@all: Please keep in mind that Rule One is Be Polite. Attack arguments and not posters. Thanks!


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:57:39


Post by: Testify


azreal13 wrote:
Real world?!

I've been signed off work with a chronic, incurable disease for the last 5 months, trying to make things work on benefits. Don't sit there accusing me of not living in the real world when your own knowledge (as, if I piece together from some of your other posts correctly, an early twenties stoner who possibly still lives at home, job or no job) of real world economics is breath takingly poor.

An increase in the cost of raw materials does not translate to the same increase in price of the finished goods.

Inflation is the measure of price increases down to such things as price increases of fuel etc and increases out of line with inflation, special circumstances notwithstanding, is nearly always for profit.

I pay my own way in the world but that's by the by.

By your logic, Games Workshop should increase the price by a huge amount. Not the 5/10% that the popular boxes go up by, but by 50% a year, or hell a month. Greed, right?

In fact I just checked. Guardsmen haven't gone up in the past year. So your narrative of huge price increases is looking a bit rickity.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:[
And yet, other manufacturers of plastic miniatures have not increased at the same rate, why are they not all bankrupt?

Because they're a far lower quality than GW's? At a guess.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Manchu wrote:
@all: Please keep in mind that Rule One is Be Polite. Attack arguments and not posters. Thanks!

I don't mind being attacked as a person, it's when you attack my job that it bothers me. Maybe I'm just too English.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 21:58:49


Post by: theQuanz


Oh hey, this thread again. hahaha


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:00:47


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Testify wrote:
Seriously grow. The feth. Up. Prices go up, deal with it.


LOL! Plastic prices. Yeah. 'Cause plastic is the most espensive part of the process. HAHAHAHAH!

I don't think "plastic and gas prices" are the reason the new LOTR minis have such high prices.

 Testify wrote:
Because they're a far lower quality than GW's? At a guess.


*falls off chair laughing*

Yep. That's it. GW uses such high quality plastic (FinePlastic?) that their prices go up and up and up!!!

Priceless!


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:02:08


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Testify wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:[
And yet, other manufacturers of plastic miniatures have not increased at the same rate, why are they not all bankrupt?

Because they're a far lower quality than GW's? At a guess.



Other than aesthetic, define quality and why these other companies are 'far lower'. I have heard this argument before and it always seems to boil down to 'well I don't think they look as nice'.



Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:05:41


Post by: Azreal13


Oh I give up.

It's like trying to teach astrophysics to a cat.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:07:09


Post by: Sigvatr


 Testify wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
I don't care for what GW says unless they come up with an actual listing of what their "average customer" buys in order to achieve the 1500$ goal.

$1500 a year is $28, or £17 a week. That's a box set every fortnight, without taking into account paints and supplies. Seems reasonable to me at face value.


And who's actually buying a box set every week then? I am fairly certain there are some people that go out and start at 1500+ points, but most people will start at 500-1000. Furthermore, if the "average" customer bought one box a week, when would he start painting? And what kind of army would need to be so big despite IG?

Furthermore, how does GW keep track of their "average customer"? Do they ask him if he bought stuff somewhere else? I play at two GW stores and 1 FLGS, how do they keep track of me then? Do they keep track of every "timmy" buying something at their store? I don't think a lot of people even use the GW online store. It does not make any sense to me. Why order at their online store, where you could keep track of purchases, when you can get the very same thing at a MUCH lower pricewhen buying from another retailer?

1500$ a year, aka 125$ a month is a whole lot and not even close to what you would actually need to pay if you started an army. Most armies are way cheaper, even if you bought everything at GW (ehem) including colors and brushes (with the latter being a pretty damn bad idea, but alas).


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:14:57


Post by: mattyrm


This threads been mint, it reminds me of the good old days in the OT forum, where we men could debate robustly and somewhat insulting witty retorts were lauded as mature and richly satisfying.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:15:54


Post by: Hlaine Larkin mk2


 Testify wrote:
azreal13 wrote:
Real world?!

I've been signed off work with a chronic, incurable disease for the last 5 months, trying to make things work on benefits. Don't sit there accusing me of not living in the real world when your own knowledge (as, if I piece together from some of your other posts correctly, an early twenties stoner who possibly still lives at home, job or no job) of real world economics is breath takingly poor.

An increase in the cost of raw materials does not translate to the same increase in price of the finished goods.

Inflation is the measure of price increases down to such things as price increases of fuel etc and increases out of line with inflation, special circumstances notwithstanding, is nearly always for profit.

I pay my own way in the world but that's by the by.

By your logic, Games Workshop should increase the price by a huge amount. Not the 5/10% that the popular boxes go up by, but by 50% a year, or hell a month. Greed, right?

In fact I just checked. Guardsmen haven't gone up in the past year. So your narrative of huge price increases is looking a bit rickity.


Unlike supermarkets GW doesn't have gradual price increase but does them all in one jump, just because their price hasn't increased relatively recently doesn't mean inflation doesn't effect them,


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:16:15


Post by: xcasex


oh. hello thread. :evil:

I like Testify, he's consistent.

anyway, the breakdown isnt just "omg plastic is made from crude oil" it's not always the case.

Furthermore, the breakdown is more likely, retooling, distribution, merchandising, whatever-the-feth-else, pod costs, units of and retraining of FTE's in -- design, marketing, concept development, production etc --
all of the above could explain a minute increase in cost, but not by 10-15% annually.

also, corporations as they look these days, is all about increasing shareholder revenue.

'tis just the way it is.

(also, if plastic costs merit the increase in cost seen at GW, how come paintball and airsoft marker ammo is still, cheaper than ever?)


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:18:36


Post by: Testify


H.B.M.C. wrote:
LOL! Plastic prices. Yeah. 'Cause plastic is the most espensive part of the process. HAHAHAHAH!

I don't think "plastic and gas prices" are the reason the new LOTR minis have such high prices.

True. But frankly it doesn't bother me. If I think something is too expensive, I won't buy it. GW don't want to price their customers out of the stores, and so far they don't seem to be doing that. 40k is alive and healthy, and Fantasy is...surviving.

There is a higher demand for The Hobbit so they're bound to be more expensive.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
*falls off chair laughing*

Yep. That's it. GW uses such high quality plastic (FinePlastic?) that their prices go up and up and up!!!

Priceless!

Finecast is crap. Good job no one mentioned finecast, eh?


azreal13 wrote:Oh I give up.

It's like trying to teach astrophysics to a cat.

Funnily enough...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Other than aesthetic, define quality and why these other companies are 'far lower'. I have heard this argument before and it always seems to boil down to 'well I don't think they look as nice'.

You don't think that aesthetics are important in a hobby based around collecting minatures that look pretty?

Fair enough

Sigvatr wrote:
And who's actually buying a box set every week then? I am fairly certain there are some people that go out and start at 1500+ points, but most people will start at 500-1000. Furthermore, if the "average" customer bought one box a week, when would he start painting? And what kind of army would need to be so big despite IG?

Furthermore, how does GW keep track of their "average customer"? Do they ask him if he bought stuff somewhere else? I play at two GW stores and 1 FLGS, how do they keep track of me then? Do they keep track of every "timmy" buying something at their store? I don't think a lot of people even use the GW online store. It does not make any sense to me. Why order at their online store, where you could keep track of purchases, when you can get the very same thing at a MUCH lower pricewhen buying from another retailer?

1500$ a year, aka 125$ a month is a whole lot and not even close to what you would actually need to pay if you started an army. Most armies are way cheaper, even if you bought everything at GW (ehem) including colors and brushes (with the latter being a pretty damn bad idea, but alas).

When I had the time to game I was buying a box every fortnight, roughly. You can easily sustain this for a year or so for most armies, add in an extensive pain range, paint brushes, occasional large purchases...and yeah, easily.

And my friends bought far more than I did. I had at least 3 friends who bought a box every weak easily. I have one or two that have been doing so for at least 5 years. Does it really annoy you that people enjoy collecting and painting 40k without actively despising the company that provides them with these models?


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:18:43


Post by: Hlaine Larkin mk2


 xcasex wrote:


(also, if plastic costs merit the increase in cost seen at GW, how come paintball and airsoft marker ammo is still, cheaper than ever?)


Plastic isn't the only cost GW faces, most likely rent and wages for B&M store staff are a fairly high expense for GW which paintball manufacturers don't have to deal with


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:18:58


Post by: mattyrm


This threads been mint, it reminds me of the good old days in the OT forum, where we men could debate robustly and somewhat insulting witty retorts were lauded as mature and richly satisfying.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:25:39


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Testify wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Other than aesthetic, define quality and why these other companies are 'far lower'. I have heard this argument before and it always seems to boil down to 'well I don't think they look as nice'.

You don't think that aesthetics are important in a hobby based around collecting minatures that look pretty?

Fair enough



I'm suggesting, by throwing that fairly obvious disclaimer in there, that aesthetics are a personal preference and therefore not a viable excuse for you to use to cite price being higher. Mantic's new ogres look a hundredfold better than GW's fatsos but will likely be about half the price. They still required designing, artwork, meetings to agree them, sculpting greens and casting prototypes. The Look is not a viable argument. You suggested that the GW minis are 'better' and therefore require a higher price, I want you to tell me what it is that makes them better other than you personally prefer the way they look.

Try again, after thinking about it some more.

Good fething grief...


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:26:38


Post by: Testify


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 Testify wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Other than aesthetic, define quality and why these other companies are 'far lower'. I have heard this argument before and it always seems to boil down to 'well I don't think they look as nice'.

You don't think that aesthetics are important in a hobby based around collecting minatures that look pretty?

Fair enough



I'm suggesting, by throwing that fairly obvious disclaimer in there, that aesthetics are a personal preference and therefore not a viable excuse for you to use to cite price being higher. Mantic's new ogres look a hundredfold better than GW's fatsos but will likely be about half the price. They still required designing, artwork, meetings to agree them, sculpting greens and casting prototypes. The Look is not a viable argument. You suggested that the GW minis are 'better' and therefore require a higher price, I want you to tell me what it is that makes them better other than you personally prefer the way they look.

Try again, after thinking about it some more.

Good fething grief...

The fact that GW sell 100 times more than they do is proof that they look nicer. You are clearly in the minority, though obviously it is subjective.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:26:43


Post by: -Loki-


 Sigvatr wrote:
1500$ a year, aka 125$ a month is a whole lot and not even close to what you would actually need to pay if you started an army. Most armies are way cheaper, even if you bought everything at GW (ehem) including colors and brushes (with the latter being a pretty damn bad idea, but alas).


Even paying Australian retail, $1500 is extremely excessive even for a Warhammer Fantasy army. I mean, going with an expensive army like Vampire Counts, Vampire Counts, I could bash together a 2000pt army for less than $800au retail, which includes a large block of 50 skeletons, 20 Ghouls, and about 40 zombies to raise.

Even if you add to that paints, brushes, supplies like sand, flock, clippers, etc, some terrain and a battlemat, I wouldn't come close to paying $1500au at retail to get a large army, the supplies to build and paint it, and terrain and a battlemat (which not everyone is going to buy) to play on.

$1500 is extremely excessive.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:27:15


Post by: Azreal13


 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
 xcasex wrote:


(also, if plastic costs merit the increase in cost seen at GW, how come paintball and airsoft marker ammo is still, cheaper than ever?)


Plastic isn't the only cost GW faces, most likely rent and wages for B&M store staff are a fairly high expense for GW which paintball manufacturers don't have to deal with


They're cutting personnel from shops, and given the current climate with retail units lying empty all over the country, I assure you commercial rents are by and large falling, not increasing.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:27:34


Post by: Testify


 mattyrm wrote:
This threads been mint, it reminds me of the good old days in the OT forum, where we men could debate robustly and somewhat insulting witty retorts were lauded as mature and richly satisfying.

Incidentally, the OT misses you. Most of the moderates have left so it tends to be the extremes who post, and extremes by their nature refuse to see the other side of the argument.


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:28:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Testify wrote:
Finecast is crap. Good job no one mentioned finecast, eh?


Artful dodge. You didn't answer the point though (and I didn't mention FineCost either).


Games Workshop down the drain? @ 2012/12/11 22:29:10


Post by: Hlaine Larkin mk2


Exactly MGS, people may buy the kings of war elves or dwarves but I won't because I really don't like the aesthetics of the models in comparison to GW's but Scribor's or wargames factory's models are just fine to me personally.
Every person has their own willingness to pay for a product