The number of foreign-born residents in England and Wales has risen by nearly three million since 2001 to 7.5 million people, the 2011 census shows.
That means about one in eight - 13% - of residents were born outside the UK.
The most common birthplaces outside the UK for residents are India, Poland and Pakistan. The number of ethnic white British people is down to 80%.
London has become the first region where white British people have become a minority.
Some 45% (3.7 million) of people in the capital described themselves as white British, down from 58% (4.3 million) in 2001.
The Office for National Statistics said the findings showed a "diverse" and "changing" picture.
More than half the rise in the population of England and Wales was due to migration.
Alp Mehmet, from Migration Watch, said the figures showed "how absolutely essential it is that we bring immigration under control".
He told BBC Radio 4's World at One that society must consider "the housing that's going to be needed, the schools that are going to be needed, the roads".
If people wanted "new arrivals" to be integrated, "then for goodness sake we can't have them arriving at this sort of scale", he added.
But Sunder Katwala, director of British Future - an independent think tank on migration - said people had "an absolute moral responsibility to make our society work as a shared society".
Guy Goodwin, ONS: "Census shows diverse population."
"The question of do you want this to happen or don't you want this to happen implies that you've got a choice and you could say 'let's not have any diversity'," he told the BBC News website.
"This is who we are - it's inevitable."
Guy Goodwin, from the Office of National Statistics, told BBC News: "It's a really changing picture so the 2011 census population will go down as a diverse population compared with 2001."
How do UK posters feel about this? I don't find it surprising in the slightest, though the figure is closer 40% in cities and 5% in more rural areas.
The impact on the public sector is going to be phenomenal...
Not insane to New Labour, but very sane indeed. Itsonly insane if you look at the national interest, which is a distant second to party political interest.
Open the floodgates to reconfigure the demogragphics more to their liking.
The UK is heavily overpopulated, just recently the government announced plans to rip up more green belt land to build new satellite estates in vast numbers.
"Diversity is the engine that drives this country. We are an immigrant nation! The first generation works their fingers to the bone making things, the next generation goes to college and innovates new ideas, the third generation... snowboards and takes improv classes."
The baby boomer generation of the UK will die off in a while, then the population of the country will be in decline again and getting younger.
The population ratio of non-uk born is climbing not simply because there are more people coming into the country, but that the people born in the country aren't reproducing at as high a rate.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: The baby boomer generation of the UK will die off in a while, then the population of the country will be in decline again and getting younger.
The population ratio of non-uk born is climbing not simply because there are more people coming into the country, but that the people born in the country aren't reproducing at as high a rate.
This is due to our culture of wealth creation and female empowerment over reducing women to baby producing machines.
in the case of militant Islam outbreeding the whites is not only a phenomena its a stated agenda.
it also helps that many such people are part of the benefits underclass, and it is economically advantageous to the underclass, of any ethnicity, to have lots of children to get more benefits and a bigger home from the local authority. The people who are breeding less are the people with jobs, who aren't even averaging 2.4 kids anymore. They simply can't afford to.
Maybe I watch too much Skins, but it seems like everyone gets along alright.
Diversity is my one nagging concern with living in a homogeneous country, like Japan. I'm so used to diversity and multi-ethnic commingling, that I would feel pretty homesick without it. Bullying is practically non existent where I live, possibly as a result of there being no significant majority.
Orlanth wrote: This is due to our culture of wealth creation and female empowerment over reducing women to baby producing machines.
in the case of militant Islam outbreeding the whites is not only a phenomena its a stated agenda.
And one of the beautiful things of our culture of wealth creation and female empowerment over reducing women to baby producing machines is that it wins. Every time. People look at it, compare it to their culture, and they change sides. They change sides so fast that within a generation there's barely anyone left with the old beliefs.
It's happened with every generation of migrants that's come in to a developed country. And every generation people have fussed and worried and gotten all scared that this generation of migrants is different and this really is the group that will sneakily take over. And yet it never happens.
The people who are breeding less are the people with jobs, who aren't even averaging 2.4 kids anymore. They simply can't afford to.
You're confusing "can't afford" and "don't want to". They have more money, they could afford more children if that was what they wanted more than anything else. But instead they're choosing other things, bigger houses, nicer cars, more holidays, instead of third and fourth children.
You're confusing "can't afford" and "don't want to". They have more money, they could afford more children if that was what they wanted more than anything else. But instead they're choosing other things, bigger houses, nicer cars, more holidays, instead of third and fourth children.
Whilst i don't agree with much of the stated ideas about how bad imigration is and "this country is going to hell" and I agree with the rest of your post I have to take issue with this. Int he UK housing is a major problem. Young people (i.e. under 40) are often unable to afford a home big enough to raise a family. I am in my mid 30s, between myself and my wife we both eurn well over the national average wage yet we can only afford to live in a 1 bed flat. Hopefully soon we will, after 6 years of very carefull saving, be able to move to a 2 bed terrace house. We own an 11 year old car and have not been on holiday since we went away for a week 6 years ago for our honeymoon. That is the only holiday we have ever had together because we are saving for a house big enough to have at least one child.
At that point we may have one child. By the time we can afford to move to anywhere larger we will be past the age where it is safe or practical to have another child.
Yes, in the past people made a choice to stop having children and have other things. Now in the UK the housing crises has reached a point in many areas where it is a matter of cannot afford.
What gets to people is the fact that new building is constantly blocked by NIMBYs, yet local councils house people in council houses baised on the regulations that say an adult family must have as many bedrooms as people, meaning in many areas people in council housing have better housing than those who own, dispite much lower incomes.
I an not someone who thinks we should throw people out ont he street and they do not deserve decent housing, but that we need to build enough and stop silly reasons for blocking new building.
I think that is a very complex issue on both sides, but more intergration within some sectors of socioty, both for the good of the imagrant and of socioty as a whole, for example insisting on a basic level of English (or Welsh). Equaly we need more exceptance some some areas of imagrants and less paranoia.
Imagrants on the whole are highly economicly active, and the idea of "just comming here for the benefits" is utter rubbish, and shows a complete lack of understanding of the law and the system. Unfortunatly everyone who claims this knows someone who knows a bloke who lives next door who "shows that the system dosn't work coz they get benefits and a flash car and a house and the council are only interested if your a minority" and until we start pushing the facts of imigration more we won't get anywhere.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: The baby boomer generation of the UK will die off in a while, then the population of the country will be in decline again and getting younger.
The population ratio of non-uk born is climbing not simply because there are more people coming into the country, but that the people born in the country aren't reproducing at as high a rate.
This is due to our culture of wealth creation and female empowerment over reducing women to baby producing machines.
in the case of militant Islam outbreeding the whites is not only a phenomena its a stated agenda.
it also helps that many such people are part of the benefits underclass, and it is economically advantageous to the underclass, of any ethnicity, to have lots of children to get more benefits and a bigger home from the local authority. The people who are breeding less are the people with jobs, who aren't even averaging 2.4 kids anymore. They simply can't afford to.
Well, any solution that actively requires having a good time is a solution I am in favor of.
Well, i'm white other, despite being born here and being as British as you can get. Despite this according to these figures, im foreign, so take these figures with a pinch of salt.
My experience of this is that most people only consider someone an "immigrant" if they are not white and english speaking. I was an immigrant in England and most people didn't even realise it, same with the australians and so on on our staff. People would be grousing about "bloody immigrants" and I'd point out that I was one, and they'd say "yeah, but it's not the same!"
Anyway, coming as I do from a country where emigration is the scourge that eats away at our social structure and leaves towns empty of young people and houses vacant in huge numbers, I am a bit bemused by people complaining that others find their country attractive enough to cause net immigration, stimulating the building trade through demand for houses. Believe me, the other end is not good for a country at all.
Da Boss wrote: My experience of this is that most people only consider someone an "immigrant" if they are not white and english speaking.
Yes, it's annoying when people make uninformed sweeping generalisations about foreigners, isn't it?
I was an immigrant in England and most people didn't even realise it, same with the australians and so on on our staff. People would be grousing about "bloody immigrants" and I'd point out that I was one, and they'd say "yeah, but it's not the same!"
It isn't the same. You, along, with Australians, Kiwis, Canadians, and Americans, come from an anglophone country that shares many cultural values with the United Kingdom. That isn't the same as coming from Albania or Somalia. The ease of integration for someone from an anglophone country vs. someone who isn't, isn't really comparable. As far as I can tell, the biggest problem people have with immigration isn't generally people entering the country as economic migrants or asylum-seekers per se, it's the fact that so many of you have so little interest in true integration. I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland. That sort of behaviour is basically a huge 'feth you' to the native population - it's tantamount to saying 'We have no interest in your customs, your culture, or your country. We're just here for the money.' That's what annoys people. It cuts both ways though - I witnessed the British, Irish, Germans and Dutch doing exactly the same thing when I lived in Spain. I, on the other hand, shopped in Spanish shops, ate in Spanish restaurants, drank Spanish beer in Spanish bars, and made an effort to speak Spanish everywhere apart from inside my apartment. That's good immigration.
Da Boss wrote: My experience of this is that most people only consider someone an "immigrant" if they are not white and english speaking. I was an immigrant in England and most people didn't even realise it, same with the australians and so on on our staff. People would be grousing about "bloody immigrants" and I'd point out that I was one, and they'd say "yeah, but it's not the same!"
Anyway, coming as I do from a country where emigration is the scourge that eats away at our social structure and leaves towns empty of young people and houses vacant in huge numbers, I am a bit bemused by people complaining that others find their country attractive enough to cause net immigration, stimulating the building trade through demand for houses. Believe me, the other end is not good for a country at all.
That of course is the likely way of it, though there must also be resentment against the Australians and Poles in the business areas in which they tend to operate, such a bartending and plumbing.
Conversely, many non-white British citizens born here, are also victims of racism.
Of course this set of figures is of no use by itself, since there is no historical data to compare it with, and even if available there is no data to show if it is a good or a bad thing.
Another interesting set of data showed that the proportion of single parent families, and of "cougar" wives married to younger men, was much higher in the Victorian times than it is now. This is an interesting contrast since both factors are of great social concern to people nowadays.
Albatross: I agree that cultural differences cause problems, but equally, "feth off back to Poland" isn't a very helpful attitude. Migration has always been part of human civilisations, and generally, it has been beneficial.
I was an immigrant in England and most people didn't even realise it, same with the australians and so on on our staff. People would be grousing about "bloody immigrants" and I'd point out that I was one, and they'd say "yeah, but it's not the same!"
It isn't the same. You, along, with Australians, Kiwis, Canadians, and Americans, come from an anglophone country that shares many cultural values with the United Kingdom. That isn't the same as coming from Albania or Somalia. The ease of integration for someone from an anglophone country vs. someone who isn't, isn't really comparable. As far as I can tell, the biggest problem people have with immigration isn't generally people entering the country as economic migrants or asylum-seekers per se, it's the fact that so many of you have so little interest in true integration. I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland. That sort of behaviour is basically a huge 'feth you' to the native population - it's tantamount to saying 'We have no interest in your customs, your culture, or your country. We're just here for the money.' That's what annoys people. It cuts both ways though - I witnessed the British, Irish, Germans and Dutch doing exactly the same thing when I lived in Spain. I, on the other hand, shopped in Spanish shops, ate in Spanish restaurants, drank Spanish beer in Spanish bars, and made an effort to speak Spanish everywhere apart from inside my apartment. That's good immigration.
Quoted for truth and exalted. I ran into this issue in Arizona a lot with parts of the hispanic population.
Da Boss wrote: Albatross: I agree that cultural differences cause problems, but equally, "feth off back to Poland" isn't a very helpful attitude.
Neither is the assumption that most English people are racists, which was implied by your post. We're actually pretty tolerant compared to most European countries, including the one you're currently residing in.
I'm basing it off my experiences- which were mostly in a fairly crappy corner of the south east. It's not entirely representative, but it's there and significant all the same.
Albatross wrote: I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland.
How dare those dirty foreigners want to maintain their cultural identity! I used to work with a lot of Eastern Europeans and they didn't strike me as insular any more than the natives did.
If people come here for economic reasons they probably aren't going to stay long but if they do then their children will almost inevitably become more integrated until eventually their decendents are indistinguishable from the 'pure' British. Immigrants are subject to British law and they live within British society, its very hard not to become integrated in those cuircumstances. Of course people try but its a losing battle.
Albatross wrote: I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland.
How dare those dirty foreigners want to maintain their cultural identity!
I think that's a bit strong. Reported to the moderators for racism.
Orlanth wrote: This is due to our culture of wealth creation and female empowerment over reducing women to baby producing machines.
in the case of militant Islam outbreeding the whites is not only a phenomena its a stated agenda.
And one of the beautiful things of our culture of wealth creation and female empowerment over reducing women to baby producing machines is that it wins. Every time. People look at it, compare it to their culture, and they change sides. They change sides so fast that within a generation there's barely anyone left with the old beliefs.
Thats optimistic, I wish I could believe that. However we are kowtowing to militant Islam. there are Sharia Courts in the UK now, admitedly they are 'volunteer' but the voluntary aspect might not apply to women who in Asian culture dont have a say. Actually while the rot is not reaching outside Islam in islam it is holding ground.
The fact that apostates might get beaten or even killed helps.
It's happened with every generation of migrants that's come in to a developed country. And every generation people have fussed and worried and gotten all scared that this generation of migrants is different and this really is the group that will sneakily take over. And yet it never happens.
This would be true if Islam was stood up to. However it is not, in Islamised areas ground is largely taken not shared.
The people who are breeding less are the people with jobs, who aren't even averaging 2.4 kids anymore. They simply can't afford to.
You're confusing "can't afford" and "don't want to". They have more money, they could afford more children if that was what they wanted more than anything else. But instead they're choosing other things, bigger houses, nicer cars, more holidays, instead of third and fourth children.
Thats actually a solid example of no affording something. Cant afford doesnt mean the money isn't there even if all assets were set aside, unless its something you are addicted to in which case cant afford literally means no money left. It nominally means that it cant be purchased when other priorities are considered, reponsibility can be taken into account.
Being young and foolish (well, just the latter part) I happened to get into a relationship, and fall in love (yes.. even Squats can fall in love!) with a girl while I was living and working abroad.
This year the law in the UK changed so that you have to earning a pretty good wage (19,000GBP+) to be able to claim residency for your partner. Up until a few weeks ago I was in the position of having saved a lot of money abroad, with a regular job, living with my parents and my partner having health insurance. So, not drawing on the state for anything at all, yet she was ineligible for a UK visa because I wasn't earning the required wage.
So, to be with the person I loved (..quiet at the back there! ) I was going to have to move abroad to her country of origin. The country I've paid taxes in for 15 years, with no need of its welfare system, is not prepared to tolerate us having a relationship in this country.
I can understand why the laws have changed, but they've been implemented in such a directionless and indiscriminate way that they've ended up essentially sumo-slapping legitimate citizens out of the country. And I wonder how many other people have suffered in a similar manner - UK citizens earning a decent wage, yet forced to move abroad or else split from their partners when such a thing isn't possible.
I've been really lucky since and managed to land a good enough job, so hopefully once we have swum through the reams of bureaucracy (which you would not believe), paid for the expensive visas and been through numerous checks (and probings) my GF will finally be able to get residency here.
But just thought I would write about what it's like to be effected by these harsh new immigration laws, and how they have no doubt broken quite a few hearts and, without being overly dramatic, destroyed a fair few lives. I'm going to write to my MP about it regardless, but it does seem a shame that the government can't strike some kind of happy medium between labour (opening the floodgates) and the Conservatives (who have politicked it to the extreme, and turned the UK into a practical fortress to anyone not riding a bike down the channel tunnel or rowing across the channel).
It isn't the same. You, along, with Australians, Kiwis, Canadians, and Americans, come from an anglophone country that shares many cultural values with the United Kingdom. That isn't the same as coming from Albania or Somalia. The ease of integration for someone from an anglophone country vs. someone who isn't, isn't really comparable. As far as I can tell, the biggest problem people have with immigration isn't generally people entering the country as economic migrants or asylum-seekers per se, it's the fact that so many of you have so little interest in true integration. I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland. That sort of behaviour is basically a huge 'feth you' to the native population - it's tantamount to saying 'We have no interest in your customs, your culture, or your country. We're just here for the money.' That's what annoys people. It cuts both ways though - I witnessed the British, Irish, Germans and Dutch doing exactly the same thing when I lived in Spain. I, on the other hand, shopped in Spanish shops, ate in Spanish restaurants, drank Spanish beer in Spanish bars, and made an effort to speak Spanish everywhere apart from inside my apartment. That's good immigration.
This.
Exalted for truth. If you're not going to assimilate, it winds people up. Simple as. There's a reason one of the areas in my city is nicknamed "Little Warsaw".
In my experience Poles are far quicker to assimilate than Asianic/Arabs. It's possible to go from cradle to secondary school without knowing a single white person in many English cities.
It's also...offputting that certain immigrant groups tend to stick together. Asians at work tend to speak foreign languages to each other (I've no idea which, or why they all seem to know the same language, presumably they're all from the same area of Pakistan) and stick together, similarly the English (black and white it should be noticed) tend to by and large ignore the non-English when they're not actually working with them.
It isn't the same. You, along, with Australians, Kiwis, Canadians, and Americans, come from an anglophone country that shares many cultural values with the United Kingdom. That isn't the same as coming from Albania or Somalia. The ease of integration for someone from an anglophone country vs. someone who isn't, isn't really comparable. As far as I can tell, the biggest problem people have with immigration isn't generally people entering the country as economic migrants or asylum-seekers per se, it's the fact that so many of you have so little interest in true integration. I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland. That sort of behaviour is basically a huge 'feth you' to the native population - it's tantamount to saying 'We have no interest in your customs, your culture, or your country. We're just here for the money.' That's what annoys people. It cuts both ways though - I witnessed the British, Irish, Germans and Dutch doing exactly the same thing when I lived in Spain. I, on the other hand, shopped in Spanish shops, ate in Spanish restaurants, drank Spanish beer in Spanish bars, and made an effort to speak Spanish everywhere apart from inside my apartment. That's good immigration.
This.
Exalted for truth. If you're not going to assimilate, it winds people up. Simple as. There's a reason one of the areas in my city is nicknamed "Little Warsaw".
home with them. Having things like Chinatown gives people with similar backgrounds something to relate to and even those who claim that these things are bad because they're stuck experiencing one culture are just as likely to be doing the same thing statistically people tend to hang
around people who are similar economically, racially, in terms of attractiveness, interests, religion, etc (it's familiarity that brings people together) so are you really that different than those Poles hanging out at the Polish supermarket?
Albatross wrote: I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland. That sort of behaviour is basically a huge 'feth you' to the native population - it's tantamount to saying 'We have no interest in your customs, your culture, or your country.
If Polish people want to eat Polish food, speak the Polish language, and hang out with Polish people, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to do so just because they live somewhere other than Poland. If you don't like it, then go hang out somewhere where you can eat British food (if you're into culinary masochism), speak English, and hang out with other British people. And if it turns out that there is nowhere left that you can go without Polish influence following you, then guess what! The culture's changed. Move on.
And honestly, if you're that easily offended you're just looking for things to be upset at. It's a bit silly.
Steve steveson wrote: Whilst i don't agree with much of the stated ideas about how bad imigration is and "this country is going to hell" and I agree with the rest of your post I have to take issue with this. Int he UK housing is a major problem. Young people (i.e. under 40) are often unable to afford a home big enough to raise a family. I am in my mid 30s, between myself and my wife we both eurn well over the national average wage yet we can only afford to live in a 1 bed flat. Hopefully soon we will, after 6 years of very carefull saving, be able to move to a 2 bed terrace house. We own an 11 year old car and have not been on holiday since we went away for a week 6 years ago for our honeymoon. That is the only holiday we have ever had together because we are saving for a house big enough to have at least one child.
At that point we may have one child. By the time we can afford to move to anywhere larger we will be past the age where it is safe or practical to have another child.
Thanks for your story, it was a point well made, and I accept the correction to my previous argument. And good on you for saving to build something better for your future family, my wife and I are doing the same.
I an not someone who thinks we should throw people out ont he street and they do not deserve decent housing, but that we need to build enough and stop silly reasons for blocking new building.
Oh, when it comes to complaining about stupid planning regulations and the interference of busy body nitwits in developing housing, you've got a friend in me I've worked at local councils, and seen developments get put up that'd expand the local economy, bring much needed revenue into council and be broadly wanted, only for the process to get delayed by some activist group who drag it out just long enough for the developer to pull up stakes and move elsewhere. It's infuriating.
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Steve steveson wrote: Imagrants on the whole are highly economicly active, and the idea of "just comming here for the benefits" is utter rubbish, and shows a complete lack of understanding of the law and the system.
Absolutely. It shows an ignorance not only of the system (where most every benefit is denied to people on migration visas) but also of immigrants. People don't pick up everything and move to another country so they can claim benefits. They do it because they want to make something of themselves.
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Albatross wrote: I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland.
Yeah, if you want to chase better economic opportunities that means your honour bound to never eat peroghis again.
I mean, I get the idea about integration and that people should be encouraged to become part of the greater community, but that they shouldn't shop at speciality stores that offer the food they've grown up with? That's just nutty. If we'd really insisted on that we never would have gotten Chinese, Indian, Italian, Mexican restaraunts etc...
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Orlanth wrote: Thats optimistic, I wish I could believe that. However we are kowtowing to militant Islam. there are Sharia Courts in the UK now, admitedly they are 'volunteer' but the voluntary aspect might not apply to women who in Asian culture dont have a say. Actually while the rot is not reaching outside Islam in islam it is holding ground.
The fact that apostates might get beaten or even killed helps.
I've come around to your line of thinking on Sharia Courts, largely because of an argument you put forward on this forum - that family court matters should not be decided in these courts because the children can't agree to hand over their legal protections.
But that doesn't remove the greater trend shown in every migrant pattern - in each generation the immigrants take on more and more of the cultural values of the host nation. The claims you're making here are the exact same claims made about Chinese, Italian, Greek and every other wave of immigrants, and every time those arguments were shown to be wrong.
Thats actually a solid example of no affording something. Cant afford doesnt mean the money isn't there even if all assets were set aside, unless its something you are addicted to in which case cant afford literally means no money left. It nominally means that it cant be purchased when other priorities are considered, reponsibility can be taken into account.
And as such 'can't afford' has to be seen in terms of changing priorities of middle class people, not as evidence that things are actually harder than they had been.
Also isn't part of the point of immigration is for the immigrants to introduce new experiences and cultures to people and not to leave that stuff at
home with them.
You're mistaking the Canadian view of immigration for the world view.
Just thought I'ld let you know.
Also the result of the Native Americans in North America is probably the biggest possible anti-immigrant argument one could make. Seeing as that's what everyone fears will happen to them.
But that doesn't remove the greater trend shown in every migrant pattern - in each generation the immigrants take on more and more of the cultural values of the host nation. The claims you're making here are the exact same claims made about Chinese, Italian, Greek and every other wave of immigrants, and every time those arguments were shown to be wrong.
I think I should point out that in Canada we have insular religious groups here that emigrated well over a hundred some odd years ago and still haven't assimilated. Actually they've grown exponentially, a side effect of the largest family sizes in Canada mixed with first world health care. They're called Hutterites. Though they are very similar to old order Mennonite, who have also seen only an increase in total population all the while maintaining a significantly divergent culture. It's a wonder what isolation, faith, and a refusal to change can do to keep one's cultural island afloat amid a sea of otherness.
The same could also be said of Jews from the time of the Diaspora, though in their case it's even more extreme.
Also the result of the Native Americans in North America is probably the biggest possible anti-immigrant argument one could make. Seeing as that's what everyone fears will happen to them.
I not sure that's really comparable to modern immigration cause what the British and the French colonists do was pretty much destroy the Native culture through disease, superior technology and assimilation I don't think modern immigration is causing a major spread of illnesses, warfare
and forcing there culture on others, although I could be wrong.
Well there was that bus bombing some years ago, and the bringing in of Sharia Law would seem to be doing that.
But is that norm for immigration though? I mean if the UK is getting loads of foreigners that are causing nothing but trouble then you would have a point but modern immigration is nowhere as horrible as the assimilation of Native culture and in fact I would assume most modern immigrants
Ratbarf wrote: Also the result of the Native Americans in North America is probably the biggest possible anti-immigrant argument one could make. Seeing as that's what everyone fears will happen to them.
Similar state of affairs for the Mongolians in Inner Mongolia and the Tibetans in Tibet, both becoming minorities in their own country through Chinese migration.
That said, what those two examples share in common with the Native Americans in North America is that their land was physically occupied by the outside group, it was an actual invasion. Whereas in Britain you're talking about immigration per the desires of the British government - they're bringing in as many as suits the interests of the country.
I think I should point out that in Canada we have insular religious groups here that emigrated well over a hundred some odd years ago and still haven't assimilated. Actually they've grown exponentially, a side effect of the largest family sizes in Canada mixed with first world health care. They're called Hutterites. Though they are very similar to old order Mennonite, who have also seen only an increase in total population all the while maintaining a significantly divergent culture. It's a wonder what isolation, faith, and a refusal to change can do to keep one's cultural island afloat amid a sea of otherness.
Yeah, but like the Amish and other similar groups, they're destined to have small numbers relative to the greater population. One of the quirks of highly insular groups is that they need to be attached to a larger, tolerant and cosmopolitan population to be viable.
Oh, and populations always grow exponentially. Exponential just means the current value determines the future growth.
Pacific wrote: So, to be with the person I loved (..quiet at the back there! ) I was going to have to move abroad to her country of origin. The country I've paid taxes in for 15 years, with no need of its welfare system, is not prepared to tolerate us having a relationship in this country.
Someone I know had a similar problem with a Mexican girl who had been on a work or training visa in the UK of some sort. She couldn't get it renewed so in the end they had to put her up in Germany and he had to travel there regularly. They got married fairly quickly (not in the UK, not sure whether it was Germany or Mexico though) so the problem became moot after that, though she had to stay in Germany for a bit longer whilst all the paperwork was filled out.
What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.
phantommaster wrote: What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.
If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.
phantommaster wrote: What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.
If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.
What I meant was they get it at our expense, we pay for it. We can spend months waiting for care, and they get special treatment within days.
Pacific wrote: Being young and foolish (well, just the latter part) I happened to get into a relationship, and fall in love (yes.. even Squats can fall in love!) with a girl while I was living and working abroad.
This year the law in the UK changed so that you have to earning a pretty good wage (19,000GBP+) to be able to claim residency for your partner. Up until a few weeks ago I was in the position of having saved a lot of money abroad, with a regular job, living with my parents and my partner having health insurance. So, not drawing on the state for anything at all, yet she was ineligible for a UK visa because I wasn't earning the required wage.
So, to be with the person I loved (..quiet at the back there! ) I was going to have to move abroad to her country of origin. The country I've paid taxes in for 15 years, with no need of its welfare system, is not prepared to tolerate us having a relationship in this country.
I can understand why the laws have changed, but they've been implemented in such a directionless and indiscriminate way that they've ended up essentially sumo-slapping legitimate citizens out of the country. And I wonder how many other people have suffered in a similar manner - UK citizens earning a decent wage, yet forced to move abroad or else split from their partners when such a thing isn't possible.
I've been really lucky since and managed to land a good enough job, so hopefully once we have swum through the reams of bureaucracy (which you would not believe), paid for the expensive visas and been through numerous checks (and probings) my GF will finally be able to get residency here.
But just thought I would write about what it's like to be effected by these harsh new immigration laws, and how they have no doubt broken quite a few hearts and, without being overly dramatic, destroyed a fair few lives. I'm going to write to my MP about it regardless, but it does seem a shame that the government can't strike some kind of happy medium between labour (opening the floodgates) and the Conservatives (who have politicked it to the extreme, and turned the UK into a practical fortress to anyone not riding a bike down the channel tunnel or rowing across the channel).
Fly to Mexico, wade across the Rio Grande and say hello to the promised land.
phantommaster wrote: What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.
If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.
What I meant was they get it at our expense, we pay for it. We can spend months waiting for care, and they get special treatment within days.
I like how they (some of the commentators) extend "foreigners" to "immigrants" whether they're legal or not. Because goddess forbid that SOB working his tail off and paying taxes has access to the national health care system right?
Working in a very mixed London school puts me in touch with a lot of children that have migrated here, often recently. I have to say that often their similarities are greater than their differences. Things like their skin colour I actually don't notice any longer despite coming from a nearly exclusively white background. Kids of all backgrounds all share a similar british school culture, good and bad aspects, their slang is similar, their interests are similar. They aren't all Muslims and Jews that stay apart and go to mosques at weekends and refuse to integrate. Their parents might be traditional and reflects things that people like to criticise immigrants for, but their children seem to quickly acclimatise, and they are the next generation.
phantommaster wrote: What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.
If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.
What I meant was they get it at our expense, we pay for it. We can spend months waiting for care, and they get special treatment within days.
You do realize that immigrants are paying for your health care there as well (through taxes of course), right? That's how socialized healthcare works everyone chips in a bit. Immigrants aren't taking your jobs it's that they are willing to work harder than you and also why are you complaining
about them taking school and living in houses they are just as entitled to education and shelter as anyone else. Seriously you're coming across as ethnocentric, although you may have a point with immigrants getting fist dibs on healthcare there shouldn't be favouritism when it comes to
medical attention (except for emergencies of course).
phantommaster wrote: What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.
If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.
What I meant was they get it at our expense, we pay for it. We can spend months waiting for care, and they get special treatment within days.
You do realize that immigrants are paying for your health care there as well (through taxes of course), right? That's how socialized healthcare works everyone chips in a bit. Immigrants aren't taking your jobs it's that they are willing to work harder than you and also why are you complaining
about them taking school and living in houses they are just as entitled to education and shelter as anyone else. Seriously you're coming across as ethnocentric, although you may have a point with immigrants getting fist dibs on healthcare there shouldn't be favouritism when it comes to
medical attention (except for emergencies of course).
I think the complaint is illegals and other nonpayers being able to skip the line and get health care in England free of charge, and then legal immigrants got muddled in by more or less accident.
Asylum Seekers are the ones who get medical treatment AFAIK, you know, people fleeing warzones and so on. There's certainly people abusing that, but the system is still there for good and benevolent reasons.
I actually think the british government is incredibly benevolent towards the people of the UK. The attitudes I encountered that were negative were mostly from not so bright people in the slum area I lived in.
phantommaster wrote: What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.
If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.
Spoken like someone that does not live in the UK. There are numerous accounts of certain foreigners clogging up A&E units due to being unable to either speak English and/or not being signed up with a doctor, so are coming in for something you would go to a GP for.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern europeans as they'll work for cheaper (whether legal or not WRT minimum wage) This is esp. a problem in Factories/warehouses.
The EU is a double edged sword for the UK, and we keep getting the worse end of it.
Da Boss wrote: Grimtuff, you have really got bugger all evidence that you're getting "the worse end of it".
Other than years of anecdotal evidence? No. But having lived in this country for 28 years I think I have quite an informed opinion of how we've changed for the worse.
phantommaster wrote: What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.
If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.
Spoken like someone that does not live in the UK. There are numerous accounts of certain foreigners clogging up A&E units due to being unable to either speak English and/or not being signed up with a doctor, so are coming in for something you would go to a GP for.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern europeans as they'll work for cheaper (whether legal or not WRT minimum wage) This is esp. a problem in Factories/warehouses.
The EU is a double edged sword for the UK, and we keep getting the worse end of it.
horsegak.
The inner city hospitals are getting clogged up because they are being under funded and under staffed. Last time I was in Bristol A&E it was full of white English chavs who'd been fighting each other, they then fought each other again in the waiting room.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...
Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.
phantommaster wrote: What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.
If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.
Spoken like someone that does not live in the UK. There are numerous accounts of certain foreigners clogging up A&E units due to being unable to either speak English and/or not being signed up with a doctor, so are coming in for something you would go to a GP for.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern europeans as they'll work for cheaper (whether legal or not WRT minimum wage) This is esp. a problem in Factories/warehouses.
The EU is a double edged sword for the UK, and we keep getting the worse end of it.
horsegak.
The inner city hospitals are getting clogged up because they are being under funded and under staffed. Last time I was in Bristol A&E it was full of white English chavs who'd been fighting each other, they then fought each other again in the waiting room.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...
Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.
I agree with the second point. The Chavs do not want the jobs yet complain when they're snapped up by Johnny Foreigner. But is this the solution? It's not IMO, as we're caught in some kind of downward spiral we cannot get out of.
We've made ourselves at risk of immigrants by Blair being all open door during his tenure. "Hoisted by one's own petard" as it were.
Da Boss wrote: Grimtuff, you have really got bugger all evidence that you're getting "the worse end of it".
Other than years of anecdotal evidence? No. But having lived in this country for 28 years I think I have quite an informed opinion of how we've changed for the worse.
Well I've lived in this country for the same length of time and don't agree with your 'informed' opinion.
horsegak.
The inner city hospitals are getting clogged up because they are being under funded and under staffed. Last time I was in Bristol A&E it was full of white English chavs who'd been fighting each other, they then fought each other again in the waiting room.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...
Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.
I agree with the second point. The Chavs do not want the jobs yet complain when they're snapped up by Johnny Foreigner. But is this the solution? It's not IMO, as we're caught in some kind of downward spiral we cannot get out of.
We've made ourselves at risk of immigrants by Blair being all open door during his tenure. "Hoisted by one's own petard" as it were.
At risk of immigrants what exactly?
Doing what the Romans did?
Doing what the Saxons did?
Doing what the Normans did?
Doing what the Vikings did?
We become so focused on the evil of Islamification that we lose focus on the rest. A good proportion of people moving to the UK come into the country and work. Take a look at the doctors in the next hospital you visit... Our's is a nation that has benefited greatly from integration and shared culture. Remember SS Empire Windrush and the 'streets of blood'?
We don't need to kick out 'foreigners', thank you Adam Sutler... We need to change the benefit system to facilitate working for your benefits and we need to break the back of generational benefits as a career choice. We also need to elevate our working class and correctly tax our most wealthy...
horsegak.
The inner city hospitals are getting clogged up because they are being under funded and under staffed. Last time I was in Bristol A&E it was full of white English chavs who'd been fighting each other, they then fought each other again in the waiting room.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...
Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.
I agree with the second point. The Chavs do not want the jobs yet complain when they're snapped up by Johnny Foreigner. But is this the solution? It's not IMO, as we're caught in some kind of downward spiral we cannot get out of.
We've made ourselves at risk of immigrants by Blair being all open door during his tenure. "Hoisted by one's own petard" as it were.
We don't need to kick out 'foreigners', thank you Adam Sutler... We need to change the benefit system to facilitate working for your benefits and we need to break the back of generational benefits as a career choice. We also need to elevate our working class and correctly tax our most wealthy...
I agree. What I'm saying is the government let in tons of foreigners quite literally by the busload to fill the fact certain lazy arse members of the working class (who do not consider themselves that, as they do not "work". ) are more than happy to sponge off benefits. These same individuals then complain that the Jeffs are nicking their jobs. . I forget who suggested it on here ages ago but the benefit system should be a system of vouchers you can exchange for essentials (such as shopping). Then it won't all be spent on fags and booze.
The UK letting in tons of eastern europeans as a short term solution to the fact no-one wants those jobs just has not worked long term IMO. Other cultures have successfully integrated with ours, given time, maybe they will too. But to keep having more and more come in (where it got so much of a problem Poland had practically zero builders for several new stadiums for Euro 2012) just exacerbates the issues certain areas of the UK (East Anglia, (mainly Peterborough), Hull, Doncaster etc.) are having with a perceived sheer weight of immigrants.
Pacific wrote: Being young and foolish (well, just the latter part) I happened to get into a relationship, and fall in love (yes.. even Squats can fall in love!) with a girl while I was living and working abroad.
...
But just thought I would write about what it's like to be effected by these harsh new immigration laws, and how they have no doubt broken quite a few hearts and, without being overly dramatic, destroyed a fair few lives. I'm going to write to my MP about it regardless, but it does seem a shame that the government can't strike some kind of happy medium between labour (opening the floodgates) and the Conservatives (who have politicked it to the extreme, and turned the UK into a practical fortress to anyone not riding a bike down the channel tunnel or rowing across the channel).
I have been through similar types of issues myself. I don't want to go into too much detail, but my experiences left me feeling betrayed by my country of origin (the UK). My outcome was different from yours: I left the country a few years ago.
phantommaster wrote: What I don't agree with is how they can get our free healthcare and take our jobs, fill our houses and schools etc. when we are already far too overcrowded.
If they immigrated legally, or were born in the UK, then all those things are just as much theirs as yours.
Spoken like someone that does not live in the UK. There are numerous accounts of certain foreigners clogging up A&E units due to being unable to either speak English and/or not being signed up with a doctor, so are coming in for something you would go to a GP for.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern europeans as they'll work for cheaper (whether legal or not WRT minimum wage) This is esp. a problem in Factories/warehouses.
The EU is a double edged sword for the UK, and we keep getting the worse end of it.
You're right, it's actually spoken like someone who lives in a country with incredibly similar immigration problems, and which, in fact, more people immigrate to than to the UK. If they immigrated legally, and have become citizens, they are no less entitled to all the benefits that go with than you are. Simple as that. The fact that you were born a citizen and they immigrated makes no difference in that regard.
I agree with the second point. The Chavs do not want the jobs yet complain when they're snapped up by Johnny Foreigner. But is this the solution? It's not IMO, as we're caught in some kind of downward spiral we cannot get out of.
We've made ourselves at risk of immigrants by Blair being all open door during his tenure. "Hoisted by one's own petard" as it were.
We don't need to kick out 'foreigners', thank you Adam Sutler... We need to change the benefit system to facilitate working for your benefits and we need to break the back of generational benefits as a career choice. We also need to elevate our working class and correctly tax our most wealthy...
I agree. What I'm saying is the government let in tons of foreigners quite literally by the busload to fill the fact certain lazy arse members of the working class (who do not consider themselves that, as they do not "work". ) are more than happy to sponge off benefits. These same individuals then complain that the Jeffs are nicking their jobs. . I forget who suggested it on here ages ago but the benefit system should be a system of vouchers you can exchange for essentials (such as shopping). Then it won't all be spent on fags and booze.
The UK letting in tons of eastern europeans as a short term solution to the fact no-one wants those jobs just has not worked long term IMO. Other cultures have successfully integrated with ours, given time, maybe they will too. But to keep having more and more come in (where it got so much of a problem Poland had practically zero builders for several new stadiums for Euro 2012) just exacerbates the issues certain areas of the UK (East Anglia, (mainly Peterborough), Hull, Doncaster etc.) are having with a perceived sheer weight of immigrants.
And what I'm saying is that 'OMG, the insert racial slur here are taking over our jobs and going to destroy our way of life!!' fearmongering has ever been thus with our island nation, from the Irish coming to Liverpool to the Russian Jews fleeing persecution, they are just British now.
All this has happened before and all this will happen again and the Ravens are still in The Tower...
I do believe we should be taking a stronger stance on the more vocal and demanding of the Islamic elements and their vision and attitude towards the nation they have come to. But, ultimately, I think they are fighting a loosing battle as well, because capitalism, mobile phones, pints and multimedia are far more attractive than frothy mouthed lunacy and I remain hopeful that their more unpleasant side will die out through time, integration and good old fashioned greed and breeding out.
But is that norm for immigration though? I mean if the UK is getting loads of foreigners that are causing nothing but trouble then you would have a point but modern immigration is nowhere as horrible as the assimilation of Native culture and in fact I would assume most modern immigrants
are well behaving, law-abiding citizens.
No it isn't, but what I'm saying is that when people think of the worst possible scenario of immigration they think of the Native Americans, and fear that something similar will happen to them.
Yeah, but like the Amish and other similar groups, they're destined to have small numbers relative to the greater population. One of the quirks of highly insular groups is that they need to be attached to a larger, tolerant and cosmopolitan population to be viable.
Not Menonites or Hutterites. The former don't exactly use a lot of what a cosmopolitan society has to offer, and the latter live in closed colonies.
Oh, and populations always grow exponentially. Exponential just means the current value determines the future growth.
I know, what I meant is that they're birth rate is around 9 children per female. Their population grows at a rate that is four times that then the rest of the nation.
I think the complaint is illegals and other nonpayers being able to skip the line and get health care in England free of charge, and then legal immigrants got muddled in by more or less accident.
There was a study done on this in Canada. Turns out the average wait time for a hip replacement is 15 weeks for immigrants and 40 something weeks for born heres. Though the reason that the study gave for it was that the immigrants were much much more proactive in attempting to get their wait time shortened. The born heres pretty much just accepted their fate on the matter and waited.
Other than years of anecdotal evidence? No. But having lived in this country for 28 years I think I have quite an informed opinion of how we've changed for the worse.
I have been living in this country for 33 and I have an informed opinion that contradicts yours.
Its funny how we have apparently been "changing for the worse" for centuries.
Ratbarf wrote: Not Menonites or Hutterites. The former don't exactly use a lot of what a cosmopolitan society has to offer, and the latter live in closed colonies.
If they're anything like the Amish then they do. They might socialise entirely among themselves, but they still trade with the outside world, selling their surplus goods for stuff that their small population just doesn't have the base to make by itself.
Such populations are basically dependant on a cosmopolitan outside world to allow them to engage only on their own terms.
I know, what I meant is that they're birth rate is around 9 children per female. Their population grows at a rate that is four times that then the rest of the nation.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...
Why are those pay and conditions so bad that only foreigners will take them? The middle class refuse to stomach the price inflation nessesary to bridge wealth inequality (i.e. the overwealming majority of GDP growth over the past 20 years going into the pockets of the upper middle class), so migrants are nessesary.
Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.
Britain is not at risk from immigrants, it's at risk from multi-culturalism. There is no such thing as "Britishness" other than some vague media bs about togetherness and being self-effacing.
sebster wrote: If they're anything like the Amish then they do. They might socialise entirely among themselves, but they still trade with the outside world, selling their surplus goods for stuff that their small population just doesn't have the base to make by itself.
Such populations are basically dependant on a cosmopolitan outside world to allow them to engage only on their own terms.
I wouldn't say so much for either. Both groups simply use said cosmopolitan for the getting of things that would be harder, but not impossible, to get themselves. And when they do they usually do it as a community so only a few people are exposed.
Fair enough, I was just being a smart arse really
What I'm going on though is that if the birth rates continue, which it would seem the should considering they haven't moved much since they started tracking them, it's only time before they become the majority population.
Look at what the Orthodox Jew's high birthrate is meaning for Israel. They're looking at a population base that under current rules doesn't pay taxes, doesn't work, and doesn't join the military, becoming the majority population inside of 50 years.
There is a very real possibility of indigenous populations being bred out of majority status because they have such a low comparable birth rate.
Are conditions and pay that bad? I have to say that it doesn't look that way.
Some work is neccesarly hard, dirty, back breaking. Look at the agricultural work to get in produce like potatoes, cabbages etc,
What about production and factory wqork? repetitive, mind numbing (possibly).
Hard work is, well, hard and sometimes tough.
I know a lot of agency owners who advertise well paying jobs who only see Immigrants through their doors. Those who are prepared to work mind numbing jobs for above minimum wage.
Albatross wrote: I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland. That sort of behaviour is basically a huge 'feth you' to the native population - it's tantamount to saying 'We have no interest in your customs, your culture, or your country.
If Polish people want to eat Polish food, speak the Polish language, and hang out with Polish people, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to do so just because they live somewhere other than Poland. If you don't like it, then go hang out somewhere where you can eat British food (if you're into culinary masochism), speak English, and hang out with other British people. And if it turns out that there is nowhere left that you can go without Polish influence following you, then guess what! The culture's changed. Move on.
Nope, sorry, doesn't work like that. This is my country, my culture, and I have every right to defend it. The numbers show that the face of Britain is changing - it's something that people on the ground have felt for the last ten years. It's certainly palpable in a city like London, a city I've been visiting regularly for around 8-9 years, and this is now borne out by the statistical evidence. The knee-jerk liberals will just have to accept that our country is changing, that people have legitimate grievances with this, and that ignoring them is dangerous. It's not just down to xenophobia, but I guess if all you have is a hammer...
And honestly, if you're that easily offended you're just looking for things to be upset at. It's a bit silly.
Son, I'll thank you not to be a condescending arse. You don't live here, you've never lived here and you don't know what it's like to live here. Your liberalism may impress the girls on campus but you shouldn't be so quick to judge a situation, and people, you clearly have little knowledge of.
Albatross wrote: I find polish supermarkets offensive. I have no particular axe to grind with the Polish people, but if you want to eat Polish food, speak Polish and only hang out with other Poles, feth off back to Poland.
Yeah, if you want to chase better economic opportunities that means your honour bound to never eat peroghis again.
Y'know, you're not as witty as you think you are. You know full well that's not what I'm saying. I'm speaking to the need of some immigrant populations to envelop themselves in a cultural bubble in order not to engage with their host country. It's an insult when we Brits do it overseas and an insult when people do it here. I'm not in favour of it in either case.
I mean, I get the idea about integration and that people should be encouraged to become part of the greater community, but that they shouldn't shop at speciality stores that offer the food they've grown up with?
No, it's more than that. And actually, mainstream UK supermarkets are very good indeed at catering for speciality ethnic foodstuffs, comparable with other countries I've visited. In any case, you're trivialising what I said. It's not just about ethnic food shops - there's a whole swathe of businesses in my area that cater only to Poles, the oddest of which has be Polish barbers. Afro-Carribean specialists I can understand, but Polish people's hair is exactly the same as ours! Why are they so keen to insulate themselves from the rest of us?
Albatross wrote: No, it's more than that. And actually, mainstream UK supermarkets are very good indeed at catering for speciality ethnic foodstuffs, comparable with other countries I've visited. In any case, you're trivialising what I said. It's not just about ethnic food shops - there's a whole swathe of businesses in my area that cater only to Poles, the oddest of which has be Polish barbers. Afro-Carribean specialists I can understand, but Polish people's hair is exactly the same as ours! Why are they so keen to insulate themselves from the rest of us?
Maybe they've read too much Jared Diamond and believe the UK got to its position of comparative economic superiority purely through luck rather than making better cultural and policy decisions, and thus see no need to assimilate.
Albatross wrote: The numbers show that the face of Britain is changing - it's something that people on the ground have felt for the last ten years. It's certainly palpable in a city like London, a city I've been visiting regularly for around 8-9 years, and this is now borne out by the statistical evidence.
How is this new? Cultures and countries will always change and adapt to their surroundings. Fighting change simply because it is change is both foolish and ultimately fruitless.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...
Why are those pay and conditions so bad that only foreigners will take them? The middle class refuse to stomach the price inflation nessesary to bridge wealth inequality (i.e. the overwealming majority of GDP growth over the past 20 years going into the pockets of the upper middle class), so migrants are nessesary.
No, the super rich refuse to suffer higher wages that would dent their profit margin. Here in the US, the 6 family members who own Walmart (and ASDA...) are richer than the entire bottom 30% of this continent sized nation combined... It's intolerable and it won't last forever, if they don't take steps to remedy the rapid distancing, well, the French learned that lesson a time ago.
The middle class is an endangered species, it peaked in the 50s - 80s and has been dying back ever since, if we don't raise up the lower end and protect the middle, well the feudal system will be back for a time, but without religion to dominate them and with the media showing them all the things they should want and need, the serfs won't be so cowed this time.
Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.
Britain is not at risk from immigrants, it's at risk from multi-culturalism. There is no such thing as "Britishness" other than some vague media bs about togetherness and being self-effacing.
Multiculturalism has, historically, occurred, been objected too and then absorbed. Look at the integration of Jamaicans or the Polish following WW2, there is a slight hiccup, some people worry and then nobody notices any more.
A tale for you.
Some time ago I was drinking with friends in a pub called 'The Swordfish' in Newlyn, Cornwall. It was a very rough place in those days, fisherman's pub so a lot of drugs and fights.
We were leaving and stood outside was a skinhead. He was handing out leaflets about the rise of immigrants in England. He saw that I too had a short haircut and shouted to me to rise up and stop the flood.
I wandered over with my mates and took the leaflet and read over it a bit, then I said aloud 'Bastards, fething bastards, they come over here, take our housing, take our jobs and take our women... I Fething hate them.' Skinhead nodded enthusiastically and said in his thick brummie accent 'Yes mate, yes!!! You need to sign up!' and I smiled, fairly unpleasantly to him and said.
'fething English, they come over the Tamar, they take our jobs, they take our houses, they take our women... Where you from boy?'
'Eh?' he said, not quite grasping the point.
'Where you from boy, you don't have a Cornish accent, where you from?'
'Birmingham, I'm English like you!' eyeing the gathering of Cornish fishermen grinning at him.
'I'm not fething English, Englander and you ain't in England, you should feth off to your own country... fething saxon bastard!'
He was getting uncomfortable at that point, being surrounded by a small mob of yokel bastards, the jeering starting up and he left with his silly leaflets. He didn't get the point or the daftness of his standing there telling people who'd been a different country up until a couple of hundred years ago that they should be proud to be English and get rid of the menacing immigrant to keep their distinct 'Britishness' (which doubtless was all about 'Englishness' and a narrow view of it at that).
There is Britishness, it's a constantly shifting and mutable thing. It will continue to change and it's enriched with new additions, if they integrate. I believe even the most ghettoized groups cannot hold that back, it just takes longer for them to join the masses.
As we are telling anecdotes here is mine. My culture is already dead (or as near as damn it). What killed it was simple economics and I accept that as an inevitable consequence of the modern world
I am from the North west Highlands who had (and still has in some places) a proud culture going back millenia (depending how you measure it) with its own language and customs. When I was in Primary school this culture was ailing but still alive where as now it is effectively dead, for example myself and my sister represent the first generation of my family who can't speak Gaelic.
While immigration did help to kill it off it wasn't the real reason. The immigrants were English (who were actually referred to as white settlers) who bought empty houses or built new ones on empty crofts. The reason why those crofts were empty though is that there is simply no money in the Highlands; few natural resources and little industry aside from fishing and tourism (both of which are fickle). People simply left the area as soon as they finished school; in my class of 36 I think 2 stayed, the rest now live all over the world. The end result of this is that there is an elderly local population while a signifcant proportion of working age people 'emigrated' there, I walked through the town las summer and I only recognised 3 people. I accept this as a natural consequence of the mobile nature of the modern world and to be honest the situation in the UK as a whole is no where near as extreme.
horsegak.
The inner city hospitals are getting clogged up because they are being under funded and under staffed. Last time I was in Bristol A&E it was full of white English chavs who'd been fighting each other, they then fought each other again in the waiting room.
Jobs are being snapped up by eastern Europeans because the underclass of Britain is now entirely content to remain on the social and in many cases would be financially worse off if they came off it to work in those gakky end jobs. If you reduce the pay and benefits of a position until noone but a third worlder would take them, guess who's going to take them...
Great Britain was never under risk from immigrants, it has fallen into mediocrity because it's population got lazy and greedy and the division between it's rich and poor is drifting back into the Dickensian.
I agree with the second point. The Chavs do not want the jobs yet complain when they're snapped up by Johnny Foreigner. But is this the solution? It's not IMO, as we're caught in some kind of downward spiral we cannot get out of.
We've made ourselves at risk of immigrants by Blair being all open door during his tenure. "Hoisted by one's own petard" as it were.
At risk of immigrants what exactly?
Doing what the Romans did?
Doing what the Saxons did?
Doing what the Normans did?
Doing what the Vikings did?
We become so focused on the evil of Islamification that we lose focus on the rest. A good proportion of people moving to the UK come into the country and work. Take a look at the doctors in the next hospital you visit... Our's is a nation that has benefited greatly from integration and shared culture. Remember SS Empire Windrush and the 'streets of blood'?
We don't need to kick out 'foreigners', thank you Adam Sutler... We need to change the benefit system to facilitate working for your benefits and we need to break the back of generational benefits as a career choice. We also need to elevate our working class and correctly tax our most wealthy...
Ratbarf wrote: I wouldn't say so much for either. Both groups simply use said cosmopolitan for the getting of things that would be harder, but not impossible, to get themselves. And when they do they usually do it as a community so only a few people are exposed.
Not just harder, but in many cases impossible. It simply isn't practical to have certains items built or their various parts sourced within a small population base. They would have to do without, and that would make life significantly tougher.
And the point has nothing to do with how much of the population is exposed. It's about the fact that such insular communities with tight standards of practice need a more open outside world to be viable.
What I'm going on though is that if the birth rates continue, which it would seem the should considering they haven't moved much since they started tracking them, it's only time before they become the majority population.
Look at what the Orthodox Jew's high birthrate is meaning for Israel. They're looking at a population base that under current rules doesn't pay taxes, doesn't work, and doesn't join the military, becoming the majority population inside of 50 years.
There is a very real possibility of indigenous populations being bred out of majority status because they have such a low comparable birth rate.
"My nephew grew an inch and a half in the last 3 months, and if this continues he'll be over 8 foot by his 12th birthday. What is being done to prevent this new era of giant tweens?"
My point being that too often in forecasts like this people look at a single short term trend, and project that out into infinity without any consideration for how likely it is that the trend is laying the seeds of its own destruction. These insular communities with vast growth rates simply can't sustain current practices if they come to represent a much greater percentage of the population. They will have to either change their practices or curb their growth rate.
Similarly, in Israel the Orthodox Jews, dependant on the rest of the population for defence and tax revenue, will either have to begin contributing or stop expanding.
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Albatross wrote: Y'know, you're not as witty as you think you are. You know full well that's not what I'm saying.
I honestly didn't. It really did read to me like you had a particular beef, alongside a series of other complaints, with specialty supermarkets.
Now, if your problem is with the broader idea of migrants looking to live in a cultural bubble, then I generally agree with you. That's why, in my response to you, I went on to state exactly that.
No, it's more than that. And actually, mainstream UK supermarkets are very good indeed at catering for speciality ethnic foodstuffs, comparable with other countries I've visited. In any case, you're trivialising what I said. It's not just about ethnic food shops - there's a whole swathe of businesses in my area that cater only to Poles, the oddest of which has be Polish barbers. Afro-Carribean specialists I can understand, but Polish people's hair is exactly the same as ours! Why are they so keen to insulate themselves from the rest of us?
I can's speak for the barber's shops, that does sound pretty whacky. But on the ethnic food, I can tell you that being married to the daughter of migrants, it's been a real eye opener. I used to think the variety of spices and other stuff in supermarkets was pretty good, but having now been to some specialty stores I can tell you there's a hell of a lot more out there. It's like if I went to live in Thailand, and there was an ethnic section with Orange Marmalade on the shelf. Locals might think that was pretty good, because they'd have no idea there was hundreds of different types of marmalade out there, and then hundreds of things besides Marmalade that we like to put on our toast.
A lot of the problem with housing here is the amount of people who insist on living alone.
The aging elderly might be better off moving in with a mate, and sharing their heating subsidy.
The kids hit 18, or leave university, and want a house of their own. Houseshare for a bit, and get somewhere when you hitch up with someone...
So, having to build lots of houses is little to do with the immigration 'problem'.
It's having an affect, but how many people come to the UK, get a job good enough to pay the rent on a 2-bed flat, and move their family over? It's probably similar to families moving out of the country, so evens out in the end.
If 13% are foreign-born, how many who were born here have moved away?
It is just showing the world is more mobile these days?
I'm not worried about the UK becoming more diversified.
As for the Polish barbers shop, half of the experience of getting your hair cut is the banter. If your barber can't speak your language, you'll end up with a mullet, and wonder why haircuts take longer these days...
Religion is what gets me.
We're multi-cultural that's fine but don't preach you hate or your outdated ideal here.
Saying you like bacon in someplaces causes a rift between people.
I like new culture but when you expect us to change ours and you kick ours to the side you can go home.
Be respectful of our culture and we will be fine with yours.
Britain has always been welcoming to new cultures, because in the end they make us stronger. The British culture we have today has been cobbled together from the best bits of so many other cultures dating back several thousand years that it's almost impossible to point to any single defining aspect of 'Britishness' and conclude that it doesn't have roots in another foreign idea. Together they create a stronger and more flexible society - one that is based on toleration, respect, politeness and the ability to change for the better.
It's also worth noting foreign-born doesn't necessarily mean foreign. I'm a case in point - I'm half-Asian, and was born in Africa. I also only have British nationality, speak only English fluently, and know this is the best damn nation and culture in the world!
Hedgehog wrote: Britain has always been welcoming to new cultures, because in the end they make us stronger.
That's a pretty difficult theory to test. Also, the idea that we've always been welcoming to new cultures is patently untrue. Britons fought bloody wars against the Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings and Normans in an attempt to stop them coming into our country. That it didn't work and we had to adapt is not an example of how tolerant and accepting of new cultures we are. You can hardly say that immigration has been a controversy-free issue even in the last century, to say nothing of this one.
The British culture we have today has been cobbled together from the best bits of so many other cultures dating back several thousand years that it's almost impossible to point to any single defining aspect of 'Britishness' and conclude that it doesn't have roots in another foreign idea.
That's a platitude. The same is true of any national or ethnic culture. That doesn't invalidate people's reasons for wanting to preserve their heritage. Or do you believe Native Americans should ditch the feathers and get with the program, because after all, it's a brave new world?
And where do you get the idea that our identity has been cobbled together from the 'best bits' of other cultures? That's not how acculturation works. If there is no such thing as 'Britishness' then there is no such thing as Britain - as Britain clearly exists, the same is true of 'Britishness'. One could argue that fair play, politeness, dry humour (turning into ribaldry when drunk), personal liberty, property-owning democracy, protestant work-ethic, noblesse oblige, grace under fire, ingenuity and eccentricity can all be found in other cultures, but it is the peculiar combination of them that go together to make Britishness. Just because a table is made of wood, that doesn't mean isn't a table, and therefore different to a chair. If that makes sense?
You shout from the side lines and clap dumbly as the country goes to gak, money bleeds out of the country and vulnerable people are left to fend for themselves. Don't worry though it's OK for a pensioner to freeze in their own home and for a homeless person to remain on the streets as long as some non contributing foreigner is housed and given ample benefits. FAIRNESS FOR ALL!
You shout from the side lines and clap dumbly as the country goes to gak, money bleeds out of the country and vulnerable people are left to fend for themselves. Don't worry though it's OK for a pensioner to freeze in their own home and for a homeless person to remain on the streets as long as some non contributing foreigner is housed and given ample benefits. FAIRNESS FOR ALL!
The pensioner IS getting govt. support, the homeless person has the opportunity to get govt. support, same as the immigrant. That is fairness.
The point being we need to sort out the people at home before letting more people in. You don't have a choice but to help people born here, why complicate the problem?
That's not even the point. The point is, what's wrong with wanting to protect our culture from the influence of hundreds of thousands of people who don't share our cultural values? What's wrong with thinking that THEY should change to fit in with US, as opposed to the other way around?
Hitchens called it absolutely spot-on the other night on Question Time - it's liberal bigotry. Multiculturalism is not an objective 'good'. It's debatable. The problem is, only one side wants to have the debate, the other wants to crush it. Raise concerns about about uncontrolled immigration and smug, self-congratulatory 'liberal' arseholes will tell you you're a racist, or you're 'afraid' of foreigners, as if they're the enlightened ones. We've seen it in this very thread. It is that sort of attitude that turns mere concern into anger on the part of a majority population that wasn't consulted, didn't vote for massive immigration, doesn't support it and is now feeling its effects.
Living in a country that has "mass" immigration for quite a while now , i still fail to see any effects.
Cultural value? Those things are not written in stone, they change with time anyways , immigration just adds more diversity.
The line "change to fit with us instead of the other way round". How has your life changed due to the influx of immigrants?
Immigrants Do change to fit in, their children change even more and by the 3rd generation there is feth all difference. This has been the same for millenia, it's kind of a cultural smelting. These things take time , how many British ex-pats living in other countries keep their own cultural values? FOR SHAME! they should change everything the minute they leave Britain.
It is unrealistic to expect people to change massively.
what makes you think that having immigrants in your country places your culture under attack?
Channel 4 did a very very interesting documentary several years ago about immigrants and how much they contributed to society, they even broke it down by nation, so that an average Somalian immigrant could be seen to drain the economy by -300% of what they contributed and the average Indian immigrant could be seen to contribute +500% what the took in terms of benefits and resources.
Overall, if I remember correctly, it was shown that immigrants from other countries overall contributed positively financially compared to what they removed as benefits.
Medium of Death wrote: The point being we need to sort out the people at home before letting more people in. You don't have a choice but to help people born here, why complicate the problem?
So by your criteria I'm one of those who shouldn't receive any kind of state assistance? I wasn't born in the UK...
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Channel 4 did a very very interesting documentary several years ago about immigrants and how much they contributed to society, they even broke it down by nation, so that an average Somalian immigrant could be seen to drain the economy by -300% of what they contributed and the average Indian immigrant could be seen to contribute +500% what the took in terms of benefits and resources.
So the guiding principal of nations is to make as much money as possible within their borders? By that logic we should be selling nukes to the Iranians.
Overall, if I remember correctly, it was shown that immigrants from other countries overall contributed positively financially compared to what they removed as benefits.
That's good for them. The fact that they're doing this at the expense of the living standards of millions of British people doesn't bother you?
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Bullockist wrote: Living in a country that has "mass" immigration for quite a while now , i still fail to see any effects.
I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.
Britishness has by and large been banished from huge swathes of our cities. I actually get a culture shock whenever I go to Derby or (more so) Nottingham. That seems to bother me, if it doesn't/wouldn't bother you then fair enough.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Channel 4 did a very very interesting documentary several years ago about immigrants and how much they contributed to society, they even broke it down by nation, so that an average Somalian immigrant could be seen to drain the economy by -300% of what they contributed and the average Indian immigrant could be seen to contribute +500% what the took in terms of benefits and resources.
So the guiding principal of nations is to make as much money as possible within their borders? By that logic we should be selling nukes to the Iranians.
That isn't even remotely what was implied by that statement. Try harder.
Overall, if I remember correctly, it was shown that immigrants from other countries overall contributed positively financially compared to what they removed as benefits.
That's good for them. The fact that they're doing this at the expense of the living standards of millions of British people doesn't bother you?
Once they've become citizens, they ARE British people. The whole mentality of "us vs. them" is very sad.
Bullockist wrote: Living in a country that has "mass" immigration for quite a while now , i still fail to see any effects.
I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.
...along with VERY strict immigration controls. Same for the US. But apparently we're the idiots for wanting ours to be tighter than they already are, when a whole continent effectively has unfettered access to our labour market and public services.
MrScience wrote: It's incredibly naive and downright moronic to think that immigrants in general are non-contributors to a country.
That's all there is to it.
Don't you need proof of your statement?
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MeanGreenStompa wrote: Channel 4 did a very very interesting documentary several years ago about immigrants and how much they contributed to society, they even broke it down by nation, so that an average Somalian immigrant could be seen to drain the economy by -300% of what they contributed and the average Indian immigrant could be seen to contribute +500% what the took in terms of benefits and resources.
Overall, if I remember correctly, it was shown that immigrants from other countries overall contributed positively financially compared to what they removed as benefits.
I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.
Britishness has by and large been banished from huge swathes of our cities. I actually get a culture shock whenever I go to Derby or (more so) Nottingham. That seems to bother me, if it doesn't/wouldn't bother you then fair enough.
Australia may have space, but we don't have water, our constraints on population aren't just as visible as yours. A few years ago victoria was under 10% water in it's dams.
I don't get the whole culture shock thing. I actually prefer to have more cultures around me. After visiting a country town for a week, i love going back to the city and seeing a plethora of people. Why does having a group of people who look different/talk different in an area bother you?
I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.
Britishness has by and large been banished from huge swathes of our cities. I actually get a culture shock whenever I go to Derby or (more so) Nottingham. That seems to bother me, if it doesn't/wouldn't bother you then fair enough.
Australia may have space, but we don't have water, our constraints on population aren't just as visible as yours. A few years ago victoria was under 10% water in it's dams.
I don't get the whole culture shock thing. I actually prefer to have more cultures around me. After visiting a country town for a week, i love going back to the city and seeing a plethora of people. Why does having a group of people who look different/talk different in an area bother you?
When you have to start acting differently in your own country? Become a minority in your own region? Have a sudden inferiority complex about your local cuisine? (ok thats British specific, we all know you tried to conquer the world, just to get better supper options).
You shout from the side lines and clap dumbly as the country goes to gak, money bleeds out of the country and vulnerable people are left to fend for themselves. Don't worry though it's OK for a pensioner to freeze in their own home and for a homeless person to remain on the streets as long as some non contributing foreigner is housed and given ample benefits. FAIRNESS FOR ALL!
Theres me thinking that it was irresponsible bankers that caused the global economy to crash, apparently it was all immigrants fault. Shockingly immigrants from outside the EU even have restrictions on the benefits that they can claim.
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Albatross wrote: That's not even the point. The point is, what's wrong with wanting to protect our culture from the influence of hundreds of thousands of people who don't share our cultural values? What's wrong with thinking that THEY should change to fit in with US, as opposed to the other way around?
I take it that you object to US TV programmes as well then? After all they have had a huge impact on the culture of the UK.
Maintaining a 'pure' culture will never, ever work in such an open society as ours. It it isn't changed from without it is changed from within.
You shout from the side lines and clap dumbly as the country goes to gak, money bleeds out of the country and vulnerable people are left to fend for themselves. Don't worry though it's OK for a pensioner to freeze in their own home and for a homeless person to remain on the streets as long as some non contributing foreigner is housed and given ample benefits. FAIRNESS FOR ALL!
Theres me thinking that it was irresponsible bankers that caused the global economy to crash, apparently it was all immigrants fault. Shockingly immigrants from outside the EU even have restrictions on the benefits that they can claim.
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Albatross wrote: That's not even the point. The point is, what's wrong with wanting to protect our culture from the influence of hundreds of thousands of people who don't share our cultural values? What's wrong with thinking that THEY should change to fit in with US, as opposed to the other way around?
I take it that you object to US TV programmes as well then? After all they have had a huge impact on the culture of the UK.
Maintaining a 'pure' culture will never, ever work in such an open society as ours. It it isn't changed from without it is changed from within.
I will admit, Jersey Shore could be considered an act of war, by California/New Jersey on the rest of the world.
I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.
Britishness has by and large been banished from huge swathes of our cities. I actually get a culture shock whenever I go to Derby or (more so) Nottingham. That seems to bother me, if it doesn't/wouldn't bother you then fair enough.
Australia may have space, but we don't have water, our constraints on population aren't just as visible as yours. A few years ago victoria was under 10% water in it's dams.
I don't get the whole culture shock thing. I actually prefer to have more cultures around me. After visiting a country town for a week, i love going back to the city and seeing a plethora of people. Why does having a group of people who look different/talk different in an area bother you?
I can quite understand it if you live in an "English" town where 80% of the local population are Bangladeshi.
It's like if you go to Russia or Japan, and you can't even read the road signs.
Legally a horse and factually a horse are two separate things. Legally everyone is equal, factually they are not.
If you want to take it to extremes then I am also not British. My passport says I am and legally my family has been since 1707 (and before that they were Scottish and before that Islemen/Norwegian) yet until I went to school I barely even spoke English and I may as well have grown up in Denmark or Spain for all the British (i.e. English) I feel.
I may as well be an immigrant, in fact if there was a few more wrinkles in history I would be.
I've been to Australia a fair bit in my life. If there's one thing you guys have, it's space.
Britishness has by and large been banished from huge swathes of our cities. I actually get a culture shock whenever I go to Derby or (more so) Nottingham. That seems to bother me, if it doesn't/wouldn't bother you then fair enough.
Australia may have space, but we don't have water, our constraints on population aren't just as visible as yours. A few years ago victoria was under 10% water in it's dams.
I don't get the whole culture shock thing. I actually prefer to have more cultures around me. After visiting a country town for a week, i love going back to the city and seeing a plethora of people. Why does having a group of people who look different/talk different in an area bother you?
When you have to start acting differently in your own country? Become a minority in your own region? Have a sudden inferiority complex about your local cuisine? (ok thats British specific, we all know you tried to conquer the world, just to get better supper options).
It's called change frazzled, it is going to happen continuously throughout your life. Sometimes you are just not going to be able to blame a sector of the community blindly for it, although blaming technology for change is also very popular.
I worked in a job for years where i was a minority (ethnicity-wise) , I used to describe myself as an Island of Australiana in a sea of Korea. I don't see the big deal. Your are in a minority....and?.... learn to adapt , foreigners aren't scary, it might also surprise you that they don't eat babies and steal your women.
That dog IS a horse.
If you can ride it it's a horse, although going by this theory some hugely obese people would be regarded as horses - perhaps a diet of grass straw and the occasional carrot would be good for them.
I want a dog-horse! and a cat- horsemans' flail! and a possum-helmet with a blue- tongue-lizard-chinstrap!
Legally a horse and factually a horse are two separate things. Legally everyone is equal, factually they are not.
If you want to take it to extremes then I am also not British. My passport says I am and legally my family has been since 1707 (and before that they were Scottish and before that Islemen/Norwegian) yet until I went to school I barely even spoke English and I may as well have grown up in Denmark or Spain for all the British (i.e. English) I feel.
I may as well be an immigrant, in fact if there was a few more wrinkles in history I would be.
If my nana had bollocks she'd be my grandad. What's your point? That you don't feel British because Scotland was a seperate state before the Act of Union? That's a fairly flimsy argument in favour of the British population accepting record levels of immigration..
Legally a horse and factually a horse are two separate things. Legally everyone is equal, factually they are not.
If you want to take it to extremes then I am also not British. My passport says I am and legally my family has been since 1707 (and before that they were Scottish and before that Islemen/Norwegian) yet until I went to school I barely even spoke English and I may as well have grown up in Denmark or Spain for all the British (i.e. English) I feel.
I may as well be an immigrant, in fact if there was a few more wrinkles in history I would be.
I don't know about Briitsh, but I think we can conclude you're not a horse, unless you were born in a barn, in which case you are a dog..er um..what?
Legally a horse and factually a horse are two separate things. Legally everyone is equal, factually they are not.
If you want to take it to extremes then I am also not British. My passport says I am and legally my family has been since 1707 (and before that they were Scottish and before that Islemen/Norwegian) yet until I went to school I barely even spoke English and I may as well have grown up in Denmark or Spain for all the British (i.e. English) I feel.
I may as well be an immigrant, in fact if there was a few more wrinkles in history I would be.
I don't know about Briitsh, but I think we can conclude you're not a horse, unless you were born in a barn, in which case you are a dog..er um..what?
My point is that I am British, even the BNP would probably call me British, even though I don't count myself as such and it is purely down to the vagaries of history. Anycome coming from a similar culture (i.e European) will be as British as I am and anyone from a second generation immigrant family from anywhere in the world will be as British as I am. Large parts of the population of Scotland and Wales will be in the same boat as me. In effect Britian has its own internal immigrants and has done for generations.
The only real issue with immigration is if it outstrips our public services capacity to cope. Aside from that I genuinely don't care.
My point is that I am British, even the BNP would probably call me British, even though I don't count myself as such and it is purely down to the vagaries of history.
All I'm getting from you is teenage angst, to be quite honest.
Anycome coming from a similar culture (i.e European) will be as British as I am
Nope. And also, why do you make that assertion? Have you ever been abroad? There are quite striking cultural differences between certain European countries. Is it simply just a skin-colour thing for you?
Because it isn't for me.
...and anyone from a second generation immigrant family from anywhere in the world will be as British as I am.
Not if they don't integrate properly. Would you describe the 7/7 bombers as being 'as British as you are'?
Immigration? I don't give a toss.
Now we're getting to it. You don't care. Well more of us do than don't, so just deal with it. The next party that offers a serious solution to our immigration problems will probably sweep the board, because this is something that concerns a lot of people. We aren't all racists, we aren't all xenophobes, we don't all read the tabloids and we don't all have an irrational fear of change. We just like our country the way it is.
Australia may have space, but we don't have water, our constraints on population aren't just as visible as yours. A few years ago victoria was under 10% water in it's dams.
I don't get the whole culture shock thing. I actually prefer to have more cultures around me. After visiting a country town for a week, i love going back to the city and seeing a plethora of people. Why does having a group of people who look different/talk different in an area bother you?
It's not about physical constaints. It's about walking out of your front door and feeling like you're in a different country. Yes the people are by and large friendly enough, but they're not "my" people. You forgot what a pleasure it is to talk to people of your own culture after spending so much time amongst people who aren't. I got a culture shock at work when i moved from the lines (95% foreign) to the warehouse, where I was greeted by "alright mate" rather than "hullo" in a thick polish or indian accent. Language is such an integral part of our culture that you only realise it once you're isolated from it in your place of work or your community.
Frazzled wrote:
ok thats British specific, we all know you tried to conquer the world, just to get better supper options).
Ironically we were also fairly tolerant of other religions, especially organised ones. The government permitted missionaries in India as private citizens (an important distinction, they did not have the backing of the state) and immediately banned them after popular anger at the missionaries. Britain is already more Muslim than India was or is Christian.
My point is that I am British, even the BNP would probably call me British, even though I don't count myself as such and it is purely down to the vagaries of history. Anycome coming from a similar culture (i.e European) will be as British as I am and anyone from a second generation immigrant family from anywhere in the world will be as British as I am. Large parts of the population of Scotland and Wales will be in the same boat as me. In effect Britian has its own internal immigrants and has done for generations.
You can't claim that because xenophobia isn't directed against one group, that it is logically invalid against other groups.
And where do you get the idea that our identity has been cobbled together from the 'best bits' of other cultures?
I imagine he gets it from the fact that Britishness is a conglomeration of English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish culture. Although I think its fair to say that English culture is the primary contributor.
You can't claim that because xenophobia isn't directed against one group, that it is logically invalid against other groups.
Xenophobia is always irrational (I assume by 'logically' you meant 'rationally'.) it is part of the definition of the word.
But yes, you are correct that not fearing one group does not imply that you shouldn't fear any group. However, the converse is also true. Fearing the immigration of conservative Muslims does not justify the fear of Poles.
Thats the thing though, you can never keep it the way it is. You can try to limit immigration all you wish but the next generations 'Britishness' will be as different from ours as ours is from our parents.
And where do you get the idea that our identity has been cobbled together from the 'best bits' of other cultures?
I imagine he gets it from the fact that Britishness is a conglomeration of English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish culture. Although I think its fair to say that English culture is the primary contributor.
Britishness *is* English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish cultures. Just as American is Texan, Californian, New Englander etc.
And where do you get the idea that our identity has been cobbled together from the 'best bits' of other cultures?
I imagine he gets it from the fact that Britishness is a conglomeration of English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish culture. Although I think its fair to say that English culture is the primary contributor.
Britishness *is* English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish cultures. Just as American is Texan, Californian, New Englander etc.
A Texan or pretty much any one else would be quite offended to be lumped in with the latter two groups listed there...
And where do you get the idea that our identity has been cobbled together from the 'best bits' of other cultures?
I imagine he gets it from the fact that Britishness is a conglomeration of English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish culture. Although I think its fair to say that English culture is the primary contributor.
Britishness *is* English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish cultures. Just as American is Texan, Californian, New Englander etc.
A Texan or pretty much any one else would be quite offended to be lumped in with the latter two groups listed there...
Australia may have space, but we don't have water, our constraints on population aren't just as visible as yours. A few years ago victoria was under 10% water in it's dams.
I don't get the whole culture shock thing. I actually prefer to have more cultures around me. After visiting a country town for a week, i love going back to the city and seeing a plethora of people. Why does having a group of people who look different/talk different in an area bother you?
It's not about physical constaints. It's about walking out of your front door and feeling like you're in a different country. Yes the people are by and large friendly enough, but they're not "my" people. You forgot what a pleasure it is to talk to people of your own culture after spending so much time amongst people who aren't. I got a culture shock at work when i moved from the lines (95% foreign) to the warehouse, where I was greeted by "alright mate" rather than "hullo" in a thick polish or indian accent. Language is such an integral part of our culture that you only realise it once you're isolated from it in your place of work or your community.
Wow, I've just found myself agreeing with Testify. The Mayans were right!
Anyways, This is very true. The Daily Mail had a wonderful article this past weekend about this very subject. We are living in (quite literally) an "unspoken apartheid". Until the language barrier is smashed by saying you MUST speak English to attend our schools, get a job here etc. then nothing is going to change. It's not racist to suggest this. It's no different from Israel where you must have a knowledge of Hebrew to become a citizen there.
And where do you get the idea that our identity has been cobbled together from the 'best bits' of other cultures?
I imagine he gets it from the fact that Britishness is a conglomeration of English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish culture. Although I think its fair to say that English culture is the primary contributor.
I'm not disagreeing with that, it's the implicit value judgement I reject. Acculturation doesn't occur by taking just 'the best bits' of other cultures, implying a conscious choice. That's not how it works.
And where do you get the idea that our identity has been cobbled together from the 'best bits' of other cultures?
I imagine he gets it from the fact that Britishness is a conglomeration of English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish culture. Although I think its fair to say that English culture is the primary contributor.
Britishness *is* English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish cultures. Just as American is Texan, Californian, New Englander etc.
A Texan or pretty much any one else would be quite offended to be lumped in with the latter two groups listed there...
No I am ok with New Englanders. Many are cool. Others are just misguided. Its because of the lack of queso in their diet.
All I'm getting from you is teenage angst, to be quite honest.
While all I am getting from you is xenophobia to be quite honest, mixed in a with a fear of change.
I have not only been abroad I have lived abroad for about 3 years all told. Have you been in the Gaidlhealtachd, do you even know what it is?
My guess would be an area of Scotland in which Gaelic is widely-spoken.
*checks wikipedia*
Yep, pretty much. How do you account for the existence of such places when most people in Britain speak English? I mean, presumably they'd have to be pretty xenophobic and frightened of change, right?
And if you think I'm xenophobic, I advise you to dig out your English textbooks and brush up on your skills a wee bit. I'm an educated man. I've lived overseas in a non-english speaking country. I have foreign friends. It might be convenient for you to paint me as an ignorant xenophobe because you lack the tools to make any other argument, but people like me typically tend to be a thorn in the side of the liberal establishment precisely because I'm not racist, I have had a liberal education, I've considered the arguments and I'm just not buying them. Culture is a site of negotiation, which means I have every right to resist cultural change. It's not based on ignorance, it's based on preference. I prefer my my country to remain the way it is because I sincerely believe that incoming cultures have nothing of much value to offer Britain in this day and age. That might sound chauvinistic, but there's a little bit of chauvinist in all of us if we're being truly honest. Take yourself, for example.
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Kilkrazy wrote: People aren't dogs or horses, but anyway talking about an ideal level of immigration -- or rather, foreign residency -- what should that be set at?
Would it be acceptable to have 10% foreign born people?
What about foreigners who are here for only a short time, such as university students and company executives?
See, this is a discussion worth having. The truth is, I'm not sure it's a question of quotas, but of 'quality'. What does an incoming person contribute to British society? Do they speak English? Do they understand and respect British customs? Do they have special skills, and a job waiting for them in a shortage area? Do they have enough cash to support themselves? We should be asking people why they actually want to come here, specifically.
To be honest, these are probably issues that are already looked at as part of the process, but something seems to be going wrong. I put it down to EU freedom of movement laws, actually. I've witnessed them firsthand when I moved to Spain - it was ridiculously easy to migrate as an 'unskilled' (as I was at the time) worker.
Yep, pretty much. How do you account for the existence of such places when most people in Britain speak English? I mean, presumably they'd have to be pretty xenophobic and frightened of change, right?
The Gaidhealteacht is pretty much dead, mostly due to economic reasons as I have already explained. It is a relic of the UK's truly multicultural past. What I have been trying to explain to you is that there has never been such as thing as British culture and the UK mainland contains(ed) some distinct native cultures far removed from the standard 'English' one. What does it matter is these are replaced with non native cultures?
And if you think I'm xenophobic, I advise you to dig out your English textbooks and brush up on your skills a wee bit.
So why do you think that I am exuding teenage angst when I am neither a teenager nor have been showing any signs of anxiety?
.
The only discussion worth having about immigration is one on economics. Cultural dilution and all the rest is simply gak.
Yep, pretty much. How do you account for the existence of such places when most people in Britain speak English? I mean, presumably they'd have to be pretty xenophobic and frightened of change, right?
The Gaidhealteacht is pretty much dead, mostly due to economic reasons as I have already explained. It is a relic of the UK's truly multicultural past. There has never been such as thing as British culture.
And if you think I'm xenophobic, I advise you to dig out your English textbooks and brush up on your skills a wee bit.
So why do you think that I am exuding teenage angst when I am neither a teenager nor have been showing any signs of anxiety?
.
The only discussion worth having about immigration is one on economics. Cultural dilution and all the rest is simply gak.
Horse gak. If immigrants don't bring new attractive dishes for the eating, they shouldn't be let in.
Horse gak. If immigrants don't bring new attractive dishes for the eating, they shouldn't be let in.
Americans should be turned back at the ports then
Mmmm... lets see :
Chicago style pizza, Canjun/Creole, Tex Mex, California fusion, Southern Style, Texas barbeque, DamnYankee (er New England) clam chowder, frankfurters, hamburgers, chocolate, Mexcan food, maple syrup, Brazilian and Argentinian cuisine, on and on and on and oh yea:
Yep, pretty much. How do you account for the existence of such places when most people in Britain speak English? I mean, presumably they'd have to be pretty xenophobic and frightened of change, right?
The Gaidhealteacht is pretty much dead, mostly due to economic reasons as I have already explained. It is a relic of the UK's truly multicultural past. What I have been trying to explain to you is that there has never been such as thing as British culture and the UK mainland contains(ed) some distinct native cultures far removed from the standard 'English' one. What does it matter is these are replaced with non native cultures?
And if you think I'm xenophobic, I advise you to dig out your English textbooks and brush up on your skills a wee bit.
So why do you think that I am exuding teenage angst when I am neither a teenager nor have been showing any signs of anxiety?
.
The only discussion worth having about immigration is one on economics. Cultural dilution and all the rest is simply gak.
No, it isn't. I don't know how you have these kinds of discussions as to the importance of Culture in Britain, but in Canada we're pretty much beaten over the head with them every time we read the news. Quebec has huge culture complex, Natives have huge culture complex, really the only people who don't give a hoot about culture in Canada is the WBEC (White British/European Christians) because they are still the dominant culture in most places outside of major cities and Quebec/reserves. Having a discussion on one's culture and what one would like to preserve from it for the succeeding generations is a good discussion to have.
Horse gak. If immigrants don't bring new attractive dishes for the eating, they shouldn't be let in.
Americans should be turned back at the ports then
Mmmm... lets see :
Chicago style pizza, Canjun/Creole, Tex Mex, California fusion, Southern Style, Texas barbeque, DamnYankee (er New England) clam chowder, frankfurters, hamburgers, chocolate, Mexcan food, maple syrup, Brazilian and Argentinian cuisine, on and on and on and oh yea:
CANADIAN FREAKING BACON!
So called "Canadian Bacon" is actually an american invention. What you people call Canadian Bacon is just called ham here. Unless you're talking about Back Bacon or Peameal Bacon, but I have never heard nor seen of those bacons in the US, and our family friend from Houstan Texas always attempts to smuggle in some Peameal bacon when she goes back after the holidays because she has yet to find it in America.
The clue is in the name, very few of them are actually from the US.
You said American. Thats two continents boyo.
Frankly our cuisine crushes Britain. Your big claim to fame is...haggis.
Not a fan of sandwiches, then? Also, the fact that you cited chocolate as a great American culinary export is laughable, not least because American chocolate tastes of arse compared to ours. There's a lot of good American food though, as long as you don't mind consuming your daily calorific allowance in one sitting...
Frazzled wrote: British..chocolate...hah hah. Now if we're talking Swiss maybe, but British???
Frazzled, British chocolate takes American chocolate out for a boozy dinner, beds it, does terrible things to it whilst it's too drunk to complain and then never calls it again. Hershey's is especially rancid.
Anyone who has performed a chocolate taste test will know that compared with its British counterpart, American chocolate has a distinctly different flavour. To many, Hershey's chocolate has a more bitter, less creamy taste than its British equivalent, and seems to have a grittier texture.
It all comes down to what exactly chocolate is.
In the UK, chocolate must contain at least 20% cocoa solids. In the US, on the other hand, cocoa solids need only make up 10%.
A Cadbury Dairy Milk bar contains 23% cocoa solids, whereas a Hershey bar contains just 11%.
Yeah, Hershey's tastes cheap and nasty even compared to Cadbury's, our baseline buy-it-anywhere chocolate. That's before you start getting into Thornton's etc.
Albatross wrote: Yeah, Hershey's tastes cheap and nasty even compared to Cadbury's, our baseline buy-it-anywhere chocolate. That's before you start getting into Thornton's etc.
Sorry you need to provde proof of that bold statement. I'll send an address where samples can be sent so that I can make a proper, nuetral taste test.
Not at all. The primacy of the US as a culinary superpower, and the need for GB to import more immigrants to suppliment their haggis laden diet with more competitive weaponry is a key topic.
I do have to concur that British chcolate is sadly on average better than American chocolate. Legoburner brought some amazing stuff over to our meetup at Adepticon this year. That being said, of course America is a big place with lots of foodies, so higher-end stuff is readily available pretty much everywhere.
That being said, Testify is correct that we're off-topic and general food banter should be taken to another thread. I appreciate that the culinary variety immigrant bring is part of their value and the expansion of a culture, but comparing British vs. American food in general is a bit astray of the point.
Has everyone noticed whenever we get talking international affairs or cultures it all comes down to food?
I propose a chain of restaurants at two levels, a four star nice joint, and a more family and wallet friendly venue, both of which will serve as United Nations of Food, their mission to promote peace and international brotherhood/understanding/cooperation via the ONLY true universal language.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Has everyone noticed whenever we get talking international affairs or cultures it all comes down to food?
I propose a chain of restaurants at two levels, a four star nice joint, and a more family and wallet friendly venue, both of which will serve as United Nations of Food, their mission to promote peace and international brotherhood/understanding/cooperation via the ONLY true universal language.
Chow.
And slowly, finally, the world enters a thousand years of peace!
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Has everyone noticed whenever we get talking international affairs or cultures it all comes down to food?
I like to look at it as a peaceful impulse on the part of our posters. By talking about food people turn sometimes unpleasant discussions into something more fun and friendly. That said, it does still oft go off-topic.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Has everyone noticed whenever we get talking international affairs or cultures it all comes down to food?
I propose a chain of restaurants at two levels, a four star nice joint, and a more family and wallet friendly venue, both of which will serve as United Nations of Food, their mission to promote peace and international brotherhood/understanding/cooperation via the ONLY true universal language.
Chow.
And slowly, finally, the world enters a thousand years of peace!
Vote me for UN Secretary-General! My new UN Culinary Corps will change the world with flavor!
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Has everyone noticed whenever we get talking international affairs or cultures it all comes down to food?
I like to look at it as a peaceful impulse on the part of our posters. By talking about food people turn sometimes unpleasant discussions into something more fun and friendly. That said, it does still oft go off-topic.
This entire forum has a strong case of AD... hey! A duck!
Now here's the hard question. Instead of said each other's opinion is full of poo, how would the various interests go about in addressing the concerns put forth?
Frazzled wrote: Now here's the hard question. Instead of said each other's opinion is full of poo, how would the various interests go about in addressing the concerns put forth?
With appetizers "The Delegate from China would invite the Delegate from the United States to sample this Dim Sum, and consider the following document over dessert"
Frazzled wrote: Now here's the hard question. Instead of said each other's opinion is full of poo, how would the various interests go about in addressing the concerns put forth?
That's my point.
I think everyone except genuine racists would agree that zero immigration is bad. A lot of people think that 13% immigration is too much.
We don't know if it is objectively, but since it is causing social concerns it needs to be looked at.
Presumably there is a happy compromise, which should include quality of migrants as well as quantity.
The points based plan introduced by the previous government is a move towards that.
(Caution all of this is taken from ancient sociology classes Frazzled had when dinosaurs roamed the earth and fire was but a dream).
13% is actually pretty high if true. Historically in the US immigration highs were generally at 8%. Thats also typically at the level you would see a rise in nativist sentiements. It might be higher now with the large illegal immigrant population, but legal immigration was typically 8% or lower.
Speaking of the UK, we don't know what the foreign born percentage has been historically, as there were no tests or records of immigration and emigration. (It's important to realise that large numbers of native born British people continue to emigrate, which of course weights the scales differently.)
I have no idea if there is a typical percentage of foreign born people that triggers "nativist" sentiment. I think it is more to do with visibility and economic conditions than a sort of psychological constant.
The Japanese, for example, get very nervous about foreigners despite the fact that there is only a tiny foreign born population in Japan, but of course they are very visible.
Yes this is the fact.All is due to the easy rules of immigration by the UK government.Immigration is good but it should be calculated to maintain a balance between the locals and the immigrants to avoid any further complications.
From a man who has lived in a mixed ( *cough* spot the white man) area, I can tell you it is bad when you let them form a comunity with in a comunity.
Also promoting their culture's as the best think since sliced bread then changing the birth of my Lord to winter festival is not going to help the situation.
How about this, get them to learn english before they come, it's not rocket science people. Learning the natives language is the bedrock of intergation, enough said.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: Also promoting their culture's as the best think since sliced bread then changing the birth of my Lord to winter festival is not going to help the situation.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: From a man who has lived in a mixed ( *cough* spot the white man) area, I can tell you it is bad when you let them form a comunity with in a comunity.
Also promoting their culture's as the best think since sliced bread then changing the birth of my Lord to winter festival is not going to help the situation.
How about this, get them to learn english before they come, it's not rocket science people. Learning the natives language is the bedrock of intergation, enough said.
I'm sorry, but if you're going to go on about how immigrants should learn English, you could at least make sure that your post doesn't have more spelling and grammar mistakes than my thirteen year old dyslexic younger brother.
All I'm getting from you is teenage angst, to be quite honest.
While all I am getting from you is xenophobia to be quite honest, mixed in a with a fear of change.
I have not only been abroad I have lived abroad for about 3 years all told. Have you been in the Gaidlhealtachd, do you even know what it is?
My guess would be an area of Scotland in which Gaelic is widely-spoken.
*checks wikipedia*
Yep, pretty much. How do you account for the existence of such places when most people in Britain speak English? I mean, presumably they'd have to be pretty xenophobic and frightened of change, right?
And if you think I'm xenophobic, I advise you to dig out your English textbooks and brush up on your skills a wee bit. I'm an educated man. I've lived overseas in a non-english speaking country. I have foreign friends. It might be convenient for you to paint me as an ignorant xenophobe because you lack the tools to make any other argument, but people like me typically tend to be a thorn in the side of the liberal establishment precisely because I'm not racist, I have had a liberal education, I've considered the arguments and I'm just not buying them. Culture is a site of negotiation, which means I have every right to resist cultural change. It's not based on ignorance, it's based on preference. I prefer my my country to remain the way it is because I sincerely believe that incoming cultures have nothing of much value to offer Britain in this day and age. That might sound chauvinistic, but there's a little bit of chauvinist in all of us if we're being truly honest. Take yourself, for example.
I think were going have to agree to disagree, but I do understand where you're coming from though you like familiarity in your country and you probably have a more defined idea of what British culture means than many other people and I respect that. I on other hand get bored easily and
enjoy change, don't really care much about traditionalism plus I don't really have a strong sense of what being Canadian is, so I'm more lenient towards immigration. Maybe it has to do with Canadian values or that I lean more towards liberalism and/or social democracy (although I don't
necessarily dislike conservatism Winston Churchill is one of my favourite historical figures), I'm not totally sure.
Anyone happen to have a chart of the number of immigrant citizens in other EU nations? England's the first stop in the union for immigrants usually, so its no wonder it has so many. Scotland's actually not getting enough skilled immigrants by current standards, despite what Conservatives may say. Perhaps a chart of the number of immigrants residing in the financial hubs of various countries would also help display that this really isn't something to take note of. However Britain does have immigrations laws that appear to be a tad more lax than other countries though. I don't know what the case is in England, but here EU citizens are treated as Scots when it comes to registring for higher education (Ie its free for five years pretty much) which has widespread abuse of the system (one Uni near me was told to cap the number of foreign students it had last year). ...People from the rest of Britain however have to pay their own countries rates to study here oddly. =P
Wyrmalla wrote: Anyone happen to have a chart of the number of immigrant citizens in other EU nations? England's the first stop in the union for immigrants usually, so its no wonder it has so many. Scotland's actually not getting enough skilled immigrants by current standards, despite what Conservatives may say. Perhaps a chart of the number of immigrants residing in the financial hubs of various countries would also help display that this really isn't something to take note of. However Britain does have immigrations laws that appear to be a tad more lax than other countries though. I don't know what the case is in England, but here EU citizens are treated as Scots when it comes to registring for higher education (Ie its free for five years pretty much) which has widespread abuse of the system (one Uni near me was told to cap the number of foreign students it had last year). ...People from the rest of Britain however have to pay their own countries rates to study here oddly. =P
Which uni was it? I attend Strathclyde and there's a lot of non-UK students here (Can't imagine it being Glasgow Caley)
So my point is not valid because I have dislexcia? (you know I tend to spell things how they sound or I think I'm spelling it and I mess up my letters and it's stressful to write) And when did I mention spelling? I said able to speak it, I don't care about writing it.
Have you noticed, everytime some one talks valid points about imigration people can't attack their words they attack their grammer and spelling, sad.
And you fail to actually make a point, once again.
Perhaps it's the rat poison fluoride in the water supply.
If you do suffer from (sic) dislexcia then it really is worth taking the extra time and effort to use the simple spell check function built into so many browsers/similar these days.
Why when it must make that vein on your head pulse judging on the way you keep bringing it up, plus I'm on a brick phone. And I fink I'l stick as is ta, cuz it eza 4 me and dont care what people fink. Jst b glad I dont write lik dis
Killkrazy - true the orignal imigrant does sit the test, then after brings his whole exstended family over who can't speak a word . I don't have a problem with colour or people being forign. What I do have a problem with is people abusing my country.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: So my point is not valid because I have dislexcia? (you know I tend to spell things how they sound or I think I'm spelling it and I mess up my letters and it's stressful to write) And when did I mention spelling? I said able to speak it, I don't care about writing it.
Have you noticed, everytime some one talks valid points about imigration people can't attack their words they attack their grammer and spelling, sad.
I may have pointed this out already, but the comparison I gave was that it was worse spelling and grammar than my dyslexic younger brother.
And, as Reds8n said, you didn't make any points. You gave an anecdote about how dem immigrants form communities, then complained about Christmas being secularised.
How about this? How come all them immigrants had to come over and change my winter solstice to some middle eastern guys birthday?
And finally, of course people are going to "ignore your valid point about immigration" in lieu of attacking your ability at English, when your "valid point" was criticising immigrants' ability at English.
) I was going to have to move abroad to her country of origin. The country I've paid taxes in for 15 years, with no need of its welfare system, is not prepared to tolerate us having a relationship in this country.
Seeing as that's what everyone fears will happen to them.
