Please write down your thoughts.

No.
Because.

They had a little nerf but they are still top tier.

Explain.

As in "Were they nerfed by 6th edition?"

if nerf = being made ineffective due to knee jerk corrections resulting from massive community outcry, then NO, they are still, point for point, monsters compared to other codices

if nerf = being made less effective by changes that also effected everyother force in the game... then YES, they were nerfed

But why are the GKs so OP?

 Tomten wrote:
But why are the GKs so OP?

Who said they were?

Why are they OP?

How about this for an example a stave bought as an upgrade that gives the wielder a 2++ save in melee.

Thats a 2++ save on a paladin for less than an IC would pay for a 4++ in most codex's.

Thats just one example and i've personally seen several armies fail to cause a single wound because the GK player uses this.

hobojebus wrote:
Why are they OP?

How about this for an example a stave bought as an upgrade that gives the wielder a 2++ save in melee.

Thats a 2++ save on a paladin for less than an IC would pay for a 4++ in most codex's.

Thats just one example and i've personally seen several armies fail to cause a single wound because the GK player uses this.

First of all, that is an example out of context and makes no sense. A two wound model (paladin) paying 5 points more than a three wound model (CSM Lord) for the exact same change in invuln save (-3) is hardly an example of OPness. But when the paladin does it, he forfeits the ability to hurt 2+ armour and only has 2 attacks at Str 4.

As Kirby or anyone else would tell you, you drop Paladins with weight of fire, not with extra special shiny weapons. You do know that the 2++ is only to CC attacks, right? Maybe the several armies you've seen fail need to be better thought out.

 Tomten wrote:
But why are the GKs so OP?

Grey Knights get tons of psychic powers, Force weapons so they can instakill almost anything, better weapons, and do it all for only costing a little bit more than their SM cousins.They get ridiculous upgrades for next to nothing on their vehicles (See Psyflemen Dreadnaught).

 Lobukia wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Why are they OP?

How about this for an example a stave bought as an upgrade that gives the wielder a 2++ save in melee.

Thats a 2++ save on a paladin for less than an IC would pay for a 4++ in most codex's.

Thats just one example and i've personally seen several armies fail to cause a single wound because the GK player uses this.

First of all, that is an example out of context and makes no sense. A two wound model (paladin) paying 5 points more than a three wound model (CSM Lord) for the exact same change in invuln save (-3) is hardly an example of OPness. But when the paladin does it, he forfeits the ability to hurt 2+ armour and only has 2 attacks at Str 4.

As Kirby or anyone else would tell you, you drop Paladins with weight of fire, not with extra special shiny weapons. You do know that the 2++ is only to CC attacks, right? Maybe the several armies you've seen fail need to be better thought out.

Lobukia, you're example is poor too as you can't say a -3 to invuln save is believable. If I said a -1 change to invuln was a big deal from having no Invuln (6++) then yeah that is really minor. If it's a change from 3++ to 2++?? That's HUGE. Now you're talking about taking it from 5++ to 2++ for 5 points. Well worth the dropping of the weapon.

And most importantly, your personal attack on him at the end does nothing except look bad on yourself. There's no need to be rude.

Its a dirt cheap upgrade that protects the entire unit from power fist attacks in melee one of the areas where GK were supposedly nerferd due to their weapons becoming majority AP3.

As for only having 2 str 4 attacks boo frickin hoo, one model protects the entire unit from ap2 melee attacks.

Thats not even mentioning things like hammer hand which adds to your str before the doubling effects of thunderhammers which is unique to that army.

Or the bs rifleman dreadnoughts with str8 autocannons.

People in my group write all comer lists they dont tailor which is why when someone drops draigo wing in their laps they struggle to shift 20 models with 40 wounds and a 2+ save.

GK's were broken in 5th and they still are in 6th when people write abusive lists.

hobojebus wrote:
Its a dirt cheap upgrade that protects the entire unit from power fist attacks in melee one of the areas where GK were supposedly nerferd due to their weapons becoming majority AP3.

As for only having 2 str 4 attacks boo frickin hoo, one model protects the entire unit from ap2 melee attacks.

Thats not even mentioning things like hammer hand which adds to your str before the doubling effects of thunderhammers which is unique to that army.

Or the bs rifleman dreadnoughts with str8 autocannons.

People in my group write all comer lists they dont tailor which is why when someone drops draigo wing in their laps they struggle to shift 20 models with 40 wounds and a 2+ save.

GK's were broken in 5th and they still are in 6th when people write abusive lists.

1. Staves are annoying I agree but how many people take them? From my experiences not many.
2. False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.
3. Ohhh Str 8 AP 4 autocannons woop de doo.
4. Use TH/SS termies watch paladins drop.

i

 felixander wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
But why are the GKs so OP?

Grey Knights get tons of psychic powers, Force weapons so they can instakill almost anything, better weapons, and do it all for only costing a little bit more than their SM cousins.They get ridiculous upgrades for next to nothing on their vehicles (See Psyflemen Dreadnaught).

 Lobukia wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Why are they OP?

How about this for an example a stave bought as an upgrade that gives the wielder a 2++ save in melee.

Thats a 2++ save on a paladin for less than an IC would pay for a 4++ in most codex's.

Thats just one example and i've personally seen several armies fail to cause a single wound because the GK player uses this.

First of all, that is an example out of context and makes no sense. A two wound model (paladin) paying 5 points more than a three wound model (CSM Lord) for the exact same change in invuln save (-3) is hardly an example of OPness. But when the paladin does it, he forfeits the ability to hurt 2+ armour and only has 2 attacks at Str 4.

As Kirby or anyone else would tell you, you drop Paladins with weight of fire, not with extra special shiny weapons. You do know that the 2++ is only to CC attacks, right? Maybe the several armies you've seen fail need to be better thought out.

Lobukia, you're example is poor too as you can't say a -3 to invuln save is believable. If I said a -1 change to invuln was a big deal from having no Invuln (6++) then yeah that is really minor. If it's a change from 3++ to 2++?? That's HUGE. Now you're talking about taking it from 5++ to 2++ for 5 points. Well worth the dropping of the weapon.

And most importantly, your personal attack on him at the end does nothing except look bad on yourself. There's no need to be rude.

No personal attack at all. If you're assaulting a unit that has 2++ in CC but 5++ from shooting.... you should be shooting it. He never said it was his armies that failed (in fact, I took it to mean they weren't his armies... seriously, this is the first time I've seen someone say that warding staves were the OP thing in a GK list). I play against GK all the time. I've had some troubles, I've lost a few, I've also tabled them. Never did I find a warding stave to be the thing I was worrying about. Once you know its there, you shoot it with an AP 2 weapon a few times or rapid fire some bolters at it and move on... exact same thing you should do if there were two SM terminators on the board. If your force can't handle two TDA wounds, then yes, it isn't very well thought out.

Again, its 2++ in CC only, and its a chunk of points. An entire squad of Stave Palladins would be laughed at, not feared.

Look, are GK a good force? Yes. Are they still at the top of tournament lists? No, the Aussie open didn't even have a GK list in the top 15. Duel Con had 1 GK list barely in the top ten and another barely in the top 20! GK were unremarkable if you look at DuelCon, Golden Throne, Nova, and the Masters. They are so beatable and I'd rank them 5th at best in current power rankings. For crying out loud, Orks rank higher in the current 6th edition tournament wins than GK. As do DE, 'Crons, Space Wolves, and Daemons.

CSM might even have them now. 5th or 6th best in a competitive field cannot make you the OP codex. With DA around the corner, they'll likely drop to 7th. Edging out SM =/= broken.

Staves are annoying I agree but how many people take them? From my experiences not many.

A friend has a draigo wing army allegedly because it was the cheapest option he has 1 in each unit.

False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.

The codex says its done before and codex trumps BRB.

Ohhh Str 8 AP 4 autocannons woop de doo.

4 re-rolled shots that can easily pop vehicles is nasty and an unnecessary addition to dreadnoughts.

Use TH/SS termies watch paladins drop.

Which is fine if your playing c:sm, if your for example a SW player each TH/SS termie is 63 points and still has no sure way to get around the stave, 2++ in melee is BS plain and simple.

And not every army has TH/SS terminators.

hobojebus wrote:

Staves are annoying I agree but how many people take them? From my experiences not many.

A friend has a draigo wing army allegedly because it was the cheapest option he has 1 in each unit.

False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.

The codex says its done before and codex trumps BRB.

Ohhh Str 8 AP 4 autocannons woop de doo.

4 re-rolled shots that can easily pop vehicles is nasty and an unnecessary addition to dreadnoughts.

Use TH/SS termies watch paladins drop.

Which is fine if your playing c:sm, if your for example a SW player each TH/SS termie is 63 points and still has no sure way to get around the stave, 2++ in melee is BS plain and simple.

And not every army has TH/SS terminators.

If you're playing SW, drop 5 relentless PC or MM on the Palladins or a Murderous Hurricane, or Jaws, or a squad of combi melta WG, or decked out Grey Hunter squad, or mob the squad with any of the 'Claw varients. Taking the one unit you seriously overpay for and throwing it against its better is not the way to take anything down.

Every army can shot a terminator or (as Orks do) force 1's by weight of dice.

Edit: a modest Pally squad of 5 is roughly 425 points. You can drop pod two packs of WG (8 each) all with Combi-Meltas that kill that squad in one turn of fire at the same cost and will still be on the board to fight something else afterward.

Just because Necrons have become stupidly powerful with 9 fliers doesn't mean that Grey Knights got worse. And all of the examples you gave would be brought were examples of Space Wolves. Most armies don't naturally bring things just to kill GK Paladins. Eitherway you look at most GK models and they get more than other models for practically nothing.

Strike Squads gain storm bolters over bolters, FORCE weapons over CCW (not just Power weapons), Psyk-Out grenades, The Aegis, Deep Strike, PE: Daemons, 2 Psychic powers, can get a heavy weapon at 5 guys (and a SECOND at 10), and can all upgrade to get even better melee weapons. For 4 points each. Mind you, for a sergeant to bring a Power weapon it's 15 points, but GK get a Force Weapon AND all the other upgrades for 4.

Psyflemen are great at wreckin' vehicles, MCs, and takin' hits.

They're still a very powerful codex with lots of viable options.

 felixander wrote:
Just because Necrons have become stupidly powerful with 9 fliers doesn't mean that Grey Knights got worse. And all of the examples you gave would be brought were examples of Space Wolves. Most armies don't naturally bring things just to kill GK Paladins. Eitherway you look at most GK models and they get more than other models for practically nothing.

Strike Squads gain storm bolters over bolters, FORCE weapons over CCW (not just Power weapons), Psyk-Out grenades, The Aegis, Deep Strike, PE: Daemons, 2 Psychic powers, can get a heavy weapon at 5 guys (and a SECOND at 10), and can all upgrade to get even better melee weapons. For 4 points each. Mind you, for a sergeant to bring a Power weapon it's 15 points, but GK get a Force Weapon AND all the other upgrades for 4.

Psyflemen are great at wreckin' vehicles, MCs, and takin' hits.

Yeah, my examples were SW, because that's what he was using :\

Orks: A typical Draigo Wing list is under 25 models and under 35 wounds and 9 HP at 2k. Orks on the other hand can put out 118 models, 130 wounds, 13 Hp in a 2k force. Mathhammer is on the orks' side.

Necrons: do we need to count the ways?

CSM: Spawn, tzeetch CSM, Hatred, Hammer of Wrath every where, Burning Axes, Fiends and Defilers in CC, etc. Bring the 25 little flesh boxes on

SM: Melta bikes, 40 pts Assault Termies, Vindicators, Combi Melta/Plasma Sternguard, Rending Flyers, certainly good options. Plus GK really struggle with units over AV 12 and even more with AV 14, SM have some of those

Nids: Mass of dice in CC AND AP 2 options in the Monster zoo

Daemons: WD DS cheese cake everywhere

I can go on....

There aren't many easy buttons in 40k, but GK hardly walk as tall as they used to



Again, its not like GK are a close 2nd, and Draigo wing is hardly their best list

hobojebus wrote:

Staves are annoying I agree but how many people take them? From my experiences not many.

A friend has a draigo wing army allegedly because it was the cheapest option he has 1 in each unit.

Okay woo shot it dead

False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.

The codex says its done before and codex trumps BRB.

Wrong try again the faq changes that besides the differnece between str 9 and 10 is negligable against most things

Ohhh Str 8 AP 4 autocannons woop de doo.

4 re-rolled shots that can easily pop vehicles is nasty and an unnecessary addition to dreadnoughts.

use a horde army not so great now is it and its an av 12 armor its easy to remove.

Use TH/SS termies watch paladins drop.

Which is fine if your playing c:sm, if your for example a SW player each TH/SS termie is 63 points and still has no sure way to get around the stave, 2++ in melee is BS plain and simple.

And not every army has TH/SS terminators.

Every army has a way to drop paladins (wraithguard, demolisher cannon's, splinter cannons, dark lances, railguns, boneswords, deathray, doomsday cannon, so forth and so on.)

Find yours.

Yeah, they got nerfed.

Of course, that's entirely relative. They were ridiculously powerful in the previous edition. This just brings them down closer to parity with the other armies.

where did it change hammerhand modifier applies beforex2?

pls reference

 Lobukia wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Just because Necrons have become stupidly powerful with 9 fliers doesn't mean that Grey Knights got worse. And all of the examples you gave would be brought were examples of Space Wolves. Most armies don't naturally bring things just to kill GK Paladins. Eitherway you look at most GK models and they get more than other models for practically nothing.

Strike Squads gain storm bolters over bolters, FORCE weapons over CCW (not just Power weapons), Psyk-Out grenades, The Aegis, Deep Strike, PE: Daemons, 2 Psychic powers, can get a heavy weapon at 5 guys (and a SECOND at 10), and can all upgrade to get even better melee weapons. For 4 points each. Mind you, for a sergeant to bring a Power weapon it's 15 points, but GK get a Force Weapon AND all the other upgrades for 4.

Psyflemen are great at wreckin' vehicles, MCs, and takin' hits.

Yeah, my examples were SW, because that's what he was using :\

Orks: A typical Draigo Wing list is under 25 models and under 35 wounds and 9 HP at 2k. Orks on the other hand can put out 118 models, 130 wounds, 13 Hp in a 2k force. Mathhammer is on the orks' side.

Necrons: do we need to count the ways?

CSM: Spawn, tzeetch CSM, Hatred, Hammer of Wrath every where, Burning Axes, Fiends and Defilers in CC, etc. Bring the 25 little flesh boxes on

SM: Melta bikes, 40 pts Assault Termies, Vindicators, Combi Melta/Plasma Sternguard, Rending Flyers, certainly good options. Plus GK really struggle with units over AV 12 and even more with AV 14, SM have some of those

Nids: Mass of dice in CC AND AP 2 options in the Monster zoo

Daemons: WD DS cheese cake everywhere

I can go on....

There aren't many easy buttons in 40k, but GK hardly walk as tall as they used to



Again, its not like GK are a close 2nd, and Draigo wing is hardly their best list

But it's not like Paladins aren't the only part of the book that's cheesy. I've frequently pointed out their other models. "Oh, you've got a 30 man squad of Termagaunts/Ork Boyz/etc? Here's a squad of purifiers. Good-bye half of your squad. Oh and we brought Halberds so we go first."

As for AV14 they can easily have Hammers everywhere and Coteaz + 10 Servitors that have Multi-Meltas? Mixed with Jokaero's who also get those? (Oh and as IG I pay 45 points for a single Servitor with a MultiMelta... you pay 10).

Stuff is seriously undercosted in the book and a lot of things are overpowered. No matter how you try to counter it it's simply true.

6th edition only made GK's even more broken against Daemons.

In 5th, the only local GK player who ever took Strikes or Interceptors was a Draigowing player. Now, everyone and their mothers are taking Strikes because they're solid value for pts, are a Scoring unit and everyone else who can is spaming the updated Flamers.
Warp Quake is broken-as-feth gak and has caused me to yet again shelve my entire army becuase there's no physical way for me to even deploy!

20 Warp Quake dudes who get first turn is pretty much auto-loss for Daemons due to the massive area they can cover, especially when you spread them out their full 2" coherency.

Maybe in another 10 years when GK's get balanced I can play my poor Daemon army...

 pizzaguardian wrote:
where did it change hammerhand modifier applies beforex2?

pls reference

Read the power.



GK are still the 2nd strongest army in the game behind crons.

Infantry access to S7 rending weapons with high quantity of fire

Average weapon S5 (every other army is 3 or 4)

Still the most cost effective MEQ option despite slightly higher cost

Great anti-flier defense compared to most armies (psycannons can move and go heavy 4 vs fliers).

5+ DTW across almost the whole army minus inquisition (even sometimes then with psychic inquisitors), 4+ sometimes.

Coteaz

Inquisition units being incredibly strong for the point cost

Grand master making anything scoring, even vehicles

Stormraven that easily insta-kills almost any psyker from across the board no matter if they are embedded in a unit.

Dredknight still undercosted but only used less often because of the cheese of 4 S8 TL shots for 135 points.

I heard force weapons on a whole army was good... especially ones that require one test for a whole squad.

Sure, they got some aspects nerfed by 6th, but they also got some HUGE buffs.
Increased focus on psykers
Hull points mean vehicles die even more reliably with quantity of fire
Overwatch with heavy psycannons...
Increased focus on plasma makes the plasma syphon pretty darn strong, esp with a paladin list
demons got much, much stronger. I heard GK do well vs demons.

Definitely the most cheese in one army. Crons have a few units that are just WTF, but are generally ok. Just glad that GK players have this general opinion of their army so they play it less.

Anyone who plays GKs will say no. Anyone who has played against on of the spammy GK lists will say yes. Anyone who ever forgot what turn it was because of imbuing enough alcohol wont care.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Anyone who plays GKs will say no. Anyone who has played against on of the spammy GK lists will say yes. Anyone who ever forgot what turn it was because of imbuing enough alcohol wont care.

Just ignorant. While i dont admittedly own a GK army, my normal partner and i regularly swap armies to prep for tourneys so we can find weaknesses of armies by playing them. Therefore i get to play as GK a lot since he has a large GK army. Simply dismissing any argument against GK's high status in the army teiring as uninformed is silly.

zephoid wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
where did it change hammerhand modifier applies beforex2?

pls reference

Read the power.

i know it does apply before the modifier. i am asking captain collius since his post has highlighted parts of him saying it applies before the x2 modifier.

And i don't agree on the deamon part. The new tzeentch daemons roll the floor with gk power armor units. Yes preferred enemy is nice but gk just doesn't put enough fire power to keep demons away, even with warp quake since you can still charge the next turn with 18" charge range.

Grey Knights = Better than Vanilla Marines, but pay more for it. Fine.

Space Wolves = Better than Vanilla Marines, but pay less for it. Broken.

Experiment 626 wrote:
6th edition only made GK's even more broken against Daemons.

In 5th, the only local GK player who ever took Strikes or Interceptors was a Draigowing player. Now, everyone and their mothers are taking Strikes because they're solid value for pts, are a Scoring unit and everyone else who can is spaming the updated Flamers.
Warp Quake is broken-as-feth gak and has caused me to yet again shelve my entire army becuase there's no physical way for me to even deploy!

20 Warp Quake dudes who get first turn is pretty much auto-loss for Daemons due to the massive area they can cover, especially when you spread them out their full 2" coherency.

Maybe in another 10 years when GK's get balanced I can play my poor Daemon army...

I agree what the warp quake business Vs. Daemons is a boat load of Cheddar......but hey there is no way GK are OP in any way.

The Stave only saves the stave model - if you have attackers in CC that aren't B2B with the stave model, their wounds cannot be allocated to the stave model... meaning that 2++ doesn't do a whole lot.

 Lobukia wrote:


Orks: A typical Draigo Wing list is under 25 models and under 35 wounds and 9 HP at 2k. Orks on the other hand can put out 118 models, 130 wounds, 13 Hp in a 2k force. Mathhammer is on the orks' side.

Necrons: do we need to count the ways?

CSM: Spawn, tzeetch CSM, Hatred, Hammer of Wrath every where, Burning Axes, Fiends and Defilers in CC, etc. Bring the 25 little flesh boxes on

SM: Melta bikes, 40 pts Assault Termies, Vindicators, Combi Melta/Plasma Sternguard, Rending Flyers, certainly good options. Plus GK really struggle with units over AV 12 and even more with AV 14, SM have some of those

Nids: Mass of dice in CC AND AP 2 options in the Monster zoo

Daemons: WD DS cheese cake everywhere

I can go on....

There aren't many easy buttons in 40k, but GK hardly walk as tall as they used to

Sorry, but some of the examples you mention are either not really that strong or work only against a single GK list.

Ork vehicles can often be popped by simple GK storm bolters, not to mention the almight psyrifleman, and they won't do much to GK armor after the shooting losses they'll take crossing the board. Doubly so if there are purifiers or a raven on the table.

CSM are in a bind against most GK armies. Hammer of Wrath is...well, not something anything has to fear when facng chaos or anyone else. Tzeentch CSM are easily the least efficient and most expensive chaos troops, and the most vunerable to GKs: more psykers for them to use grenades and their psyker defense upon. Defilers are hideously expensive and won't scratch 2+ armor. Nor will the hellturkey before psyrifledreads blow it out of the sky. The only things CSM really have that could scare GKs are melta or plasma chosen and oblits with plasma cannons. Maybe the forgefiend with plasma, but odds are it will be glanced to death by psy rounds after it fires once.

SM bikes are pricey and the small unit sizes mean they'll be falling back more often than other units. They certainly don't pach enough low-AP weapon volume to scare a good formation. Assualt termies are great but can be maneuvered around, shot to bits via mass S5 fire or pelted with psyker powers.

Nids are rather boned against GK. Their fames big monsters are one wound away from being insta-nuked in CC, their psykers/synapse are prime targets for all the nasty anti-psychic abilities GKs have, and army-wide assault2 S5 weaponry with a 24-inch range or better means their front lines evaporate really fast. And that's not counting purifiers.

Daemons have about one good build right now, and even that struggles against GKs. Just by adding their basic troop choice to a list a GK player can seriously mess up several Daemon deployment options. If we step beyinf the Daemon Flying Circus mold, the average GK list will implode a daemon list without trying just on the force of Favored Enemy, ,good CC and shooting, excellent psykers...

Grey Knights are slightly less potent in CC against 2+ armor and the hull point system made their previously nigh-unkillable razorbacks and vendreads less durable.

On the other hand, their allies table is great, their shooting is excellent, very good psyker discipline selection, army-wide psychic defense, can go ultra-elite or horde and be equally powerful. And overwatch means they get to fire their amazing guns again when charged!

Take a demolisher and all GKs are gone


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And/or maybe throw in a group of TH/SS Terminators


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GK weapons cant harm Terminators in CC

 Tomten wrote:

GK weapons cant harm Terminators in CC

Daemonhammer equipped GK's would like to have a word with you.

 pizzaguardian wrote:

zephoid wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
where did it change hammerhand modifier applies beforex2?

pls reference

Read the power.

i know it does apply before the modifier. i am asking captain collius since his post has highlighted parts of him saying it applies before the x2 modifier.

And i don't agree on the deamon part. The new tzeentch daemons roll the floor with gk power armor units. Yes preferred enemy is nice but gk just doesn't put enough fire power to keep demons away, even with warp quake since you can still charge the next turn with 18" charge range.

It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

And the codex specifies otherwise, which overrides the BRB. You're wrong - a STR4 model casting hammerhand and swinging a NFW Daemonhammer is hitting at STR10.

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

Seriously read hammerhand. It tells you to add in the Str modifier before multiplication. (Page 25 GK Codex)

So this is not correct:

 captain collius wrote:
2. False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.

 captain collius wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

zephoid wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
where did it change hammerhand modifier applies beforex2?

pls reference

Read the power.

i know it does apply before the modifier. i am asking captain collius since his post has highlighted parts of him saying it applies before the x2 modifier.

And i don't agree on the deamon part. The new tzeentch daemons roll the floor with gk power armor units. Yes preferred enemy is nice but gk just doesn't put enough fire power to keep demons away, even with warp quake since you can still charge the next turn with 18" charge range.

It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

The Hammerhand rule specifically says you apply it before demon hammers. It has been like this when the codex came out and hasn't changed since.

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

And the codex specifies otherwise, which overrides the BRB. You're wrong - a STR4 model casting hammerhand and swinging a NFW Daemonhammer is hitting at STR10.

IN the FAQ they state that you do it by the rulebook aka multipliers additions set values try again.

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

And the codex specifies otherwise, which overrides the BRB. You're wrong - a STR4 model casting hammerhand and swinging a NFW Daemonhammer is hitting at STR10.

IN the FAQ they state that you do it by the rulebook aka multipliers additions set values try again.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570043a_Grey_Knights_v1.1.pdf
Citation required.
The word "Hammerhand" appears 3 times in that FAQ and none of them state what you're referring to.
"try again"

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

And the codex specifies otherwise, which overrides the BRB. You're wrong - a STR4 model casting hammerhand and swinging a NFW Daemonhammer is hitting at STR10.

IN the FAQ they state that you do it by the rulebook aka multipliers additions set values try again.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570043a_Grey_Knights_v1.1.pdf
Citation required.
The word "Hammerhand" appears 3 times in that FAQ and none of them state what you're referring to.
"try again"

Listen read the rule book it is clear read every part of the faq i don't have to cite for you simply because you don't want to look it up yourself. As i have said before and is specifically mention in the earlier part of the faq everything in that codex needs to be adjusted hence a hammer term startout an st 4 this would be doubled to 8 them +1 to 9 as according to the RULEBOOK. please tell me how hammer hand could overrule this.

 captain collius wrote:
Listen read the rule book it is clear read every part of the faq i don't have to cite for you simply because you don't want to look it up yourself. As i have said before and is specifically mention in the earlier part of the faq everything in that codex needs to be adjusted hence a hammer term startout an st 4 this would be doubled to 8 them +1 to 9 as according to the RULEBOOK. please tell me how hammer hand could overrule this.

Read Page 7 in the BRB. Right Column, last graph to see why your statement is incorrect.

 captain collius wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Its a dirt cheap upgrade that protects the entire unit from power fist attacks in melee one of the areas where GK were supposedly nerferd due to their weapons becoming majority AP3.

As for only having 2 str 4 attacks boo frickin hoo, one model protects the entire unit from ap2 melee attacks.

Thats not even mentioning things like hammer hand which adds to your str before the doubling effects of thunderhammers which is unique to that army.

Or the bs rifleman dreadnoughts with str8 autocannons.

People in my group write all comer lists they dont tailor which is why when someone drops draigo wing in their laps they struggle to shift 20 models with 40 wounds and a 2+ save.

GK's were broken in 5th and they still are in 6th when people write abusive lists.

1. Staves are annoying I agree but how many people take them? From my experiences not many.
2. False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.
3. Ohhh Str 8 AP 4 autocannons woop de doo.
4. Use TH/SS termies watch paladins drop.

i

For 2 it seems you need to reread the rule.

 captain collius wrote:
Listen read the rule book it is clear read every part of the faq i don't have to cite for you simply because you don't want to look it up yourself. As i have said before and is specifically mention in the earlier part of the faq everything in that codex needs to be adjusted hence a hammer term startout an st 4 this would be doubled to 8 them +1 to 9 as according to the RULEBOOK. please tell me how hammer hand could overrule this.

Because it says, and I quote, "Note that this Strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers, such as for Nemesis Daemon hammers and so forth."
There's no FAQ that changes that. (above is my bold)

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

GK weapons cant harm Terminators in CC

Daemonhammer equipped GK's would like to have a word with you.

the Daemon hammer swings last, and you fight GK with TH/SS terminators so you get a 3+ in save

 Tomten wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

GK weapons cant harm Terminators in CC

Daemonhammer equipped GK's would like to have a word with you.

the Daemon hammer swings last, and you fight GK with TH/SS terminators so you get a 3+ in save

Daemon hammer swings at the same time as the thunder hammer...

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

And the codex specifies otherwise, which overrides the BRB. You're wrong - a STR4 model casting hammerhand and swinging a NFW Daemonhammer is hitting at STR10.

IN the FAQ they state that you do it by the rulebook aka multipliers additions set values try again.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570043a_Grey_Knights_v1.1.pdf
Citation required.
The word "Hammerhand" appears 3 times in that FAQ and none of them state what you're referring to.
"try again"

Listen read the rule book it is clear read every part of the faq i don't have to cite for you simply because you don't want to look it up yourself. As i have said before and is specifically mention in the earlier part of the faq everything in that codex needs to be adjusted hence a hammer term startout an st 4 this would be doubled to 8 them +1 to 9 as according to the RULEBOOK. please tell me how hammer hand could overrule this.

Don't assume we don't check the faq's before proving you wrong. I checked the grey knights faq , the rulebook faq , the grey knights codex and the rulebook itself. You are wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

GK weapons cant harm Terminators in CC

Daemonhammer equipped GK's would like to have a word with you.

the Daemon hammer swings last, and you fight GK with TH/SS terminators so you get a 3+ in save

Daemon hammer swings at the same time as the thunder hammer...

Of course, i know. But the GK terminators dont stand a chance against a squad of TH/SS terminators.

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Listen read the rule book it is clear read every part of the faq i don't have to cite for you simply because you don't want to look it up yourself. As i have said before and is specifically mention in the earlier part of the faq everything in that codex needs to be adjusted hence a hammer term startout an st 4 this would be doubled to 8 them +1 to 9 as according to the RULEBOOK. please tell me how hammer hand could overrule this.

Because it says, and I quote, "Note that this Strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers, such as for Nemesis Daemon hammers and so forth."
There's no FAQ that changes that. (above is my bold)

Okay you are correct.

Rad grenades are OP.

Grey Knights die to volume of fire just like any other Space Marines, except they're more expensive.

GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Grey Knights die to volume of fire just like any other Space Marines, except they're more expensive.

And they die to Demolishers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

 Tomten wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

"from being the most broken force in the game" means they used to be, but no longer are.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

"from being the most broken force in the game" means they used to be, but no longer are.

Aha! I see


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But GK was pretty nerfed because their force weapons are AP3.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

"from being the most broken force in the game" means they used to be, but no longer are.

Yeah they were horrendous to play against in 5th but now they have weaknesses that are easily exploitable (lack of fliers, fewer ap 2 weapons, vehicle nerfs.)

But still Paladins seem dangerous.

 Tomten wrote:
But still Paladins seem dangerous.

Again the look pretty good till you realize if you hit str 8 the y get no fnp and they still take wounds from bolters

They are not now, nor ever were the most powerful army in the game. IG and SW still dominate just about everything under the known sun, without even getting into the ally shennanigans. Crons were a better CC and shooting army in 5th and the gap between them and GK has increased. GK are about on the same level as Blood Angels and the faq boosted DA/BK builds out there. I would even argue that a well made Vulkan or Pedro list is on the same footing as GK right now. The one truely undercosted part of the entire GK book is Coteaz.

If you play Nids or Blood Angels, I can see the whining, but really watch what happens when Johnny Draigo Wing runs into pretty much any tournament tuned IG or SW list and then come back to the thread.

 Phazael wrote:
They are not now, nor ever were the most powerful army in the game. IG and SW still dominate just about everything under the known sun, without even getting into the ally shennanigans. Crons were a better CC and shooting army in 5th and the gap between them and GK has increased. GK are about on the same level as Blood Angels and the faq boosted DA/BK builds out there. I would even argue that a well made Vulkan or Pedro list is on the same footing as GK right now. The one truely undercosted part of the entire GK book is Coteaz.

If you play Nids or Blood Angels, I can see the whining, but really watch what happens when Johnny Draigo Wing runs into pretty much any tournament tuned IG or SW list and then come back to the thread.

Necrons are better in 6th ed.

I said they were better than GK in 5th and even better than them in 6th. Therefor, my statement does not conflict with yours.

 Phazael wrote:
They are not now, nor ever were the most powerful army in the game. IG and SW still dominate just about everything under the known sun, without even getting into the ally shennanigans. Crons were a better CC and shooting army in 5th and the gap between them and GK has increased. GK are about on the same level as Blood Angels and the faq boosted DA/BK builds out there. I would even argue that a well made Vulkan or Pedro list is on the same footing as GK right now. The one truely undercosted part of the entire GK book is Coteaz.

To be fair, there was a time where Necrons did not appear yet and the GKs were at their full 5th edition power.
No matter how 5crons looked against Gray5's there was a time when Gray Knights were above 4crons.
Rest of your post looks at GKs in 6th, it 5th they were definitely higher on the food chain than they are now.

As for the OP, I think I say: NO, they were not nerfed. They were instead brought to the lever they were supposed to be in the beginning.
After all the: "They are a 6th edition codex, you can't judge them in 5th.". "first 6th edition codex, they will probably will be more balanced in next edition", "...next edition...", "..you can't, sixth edition..." it's now time to say:
'They were not nerfed, their bonus just expired'.

 Tomten wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Grey Knights die to volume of fire just like any other Space Marines, except they're more expensive.

And they die to Demolishers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

They WERE broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomten wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Grey Knights die to volume of fire just like any other Space Marines, except they're more expensive.

And they die to Demolishers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

They WERE broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomten wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

"from being the most broken force in the game" means they used to be, but no longer are.

Aha! I see


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But GK was pretty nerfed because their force weapons are AP3.

Yeah and overall lack of ap2 weapons

 pizzaguardian wrote:


i know it does apply before the modifier. i am asking captain collius since his post has highlighted parts of him saying it applies before the x2 modifier.

And i don't agree on the deamon part. The new tzeentch daemons roll the floor with gk power armor units. Yes preferred enemy is nice but gk just doesn't put enough fire power to keep demons away, even with warp quake since you can still charge the next turn with 18" charge range.

If you're playing as GK's and you lose to Flamer/Screamer spam than it simply means that;
a) You're playing a Termiewing list which Flamer/Screamer spam is designed to specifically counter! (so how does it feel to be on the recieving end of a tailored hard-counter?!)

b) You're not deploying properly.

c) You're ignoring what should be one of your main Troops choices.

d) Your opponent went first, played it super aggressively and got lucky on their scatter rolls and thus flatened you.



If you go first and cast Warp Quake, you win. Simple as that. One fully sread out 10-man squad easily covers an area of 22"x30" of automatic mishap! That gives you easily two solid turns of shooting to kill the first wave or else whittle it down to just a few survivors.
The Screamers fly-by slashing attacks can be all but ignored with properly deploying your units to leave no space for the Daemons to be legally placed after they pass over you.

If you can't beat Flamer/Screamer spam, then maybe your the one doing something wrong since it's a poor-man's gimmick list that has numerous easy-to-find counters. Grey Knights especially should just keep laughing and go about killing it piecemeal.

Does "nerfed" mean they were brought down in power, but yet despite that they are still one of the stronger armies you can play in 40K, because they were so powerful in the first place?

If that's what you mean, then yes, they were nerfed.

Fortitude and Force Halberds were nerfed.

It's become clear to me that people's definition of nerfed/ buffed is all over the place.

Current "power" ranking as far as I can tell from playing as and against just about everything so far including wierd allies all around has been:

tops:

Necrons
SW (sometimes with IG)
IG (sometimes with sw)
Tau + eldar if you allow forgeworld Tau stuff like tetras with 3+ cover all over the place and baracudas.

Top of mid tier:
Gk
Chaos (if you actually just use only good units like spawn (gawd can't believe I just said that after bashing them for all of 5th edition) and drakes with oblits and cheap marines)
Tyrnids (psyker spam and flying tyrants are boss, and no, it's not easy to force weapon them to death as it is not that easy statistically to hit/wound/pass ldr with SitW especially with crazy iron arm, play them in 6th, don't apply 5th rules)

Mid mid tier:
sisters (only players that play these are old old vets so they tend to give me a run for my money no matter what the codex I think)
SM (various varieties from vanilla to salamanders, got great TAC builds with bikes but I've been hard pressed to find the truely good players that play this army, only get to watch front line gaming so some exist)
BA
Daemons (I have the flying circus along with flamers/screamers and still feel that they are a good mid tier but still too random for top tier army)
DE
Eldar (often with some crazy shadowfield rerolling going on with DE allies)
Tau if you don't let them have forge world stuff. still 3+ cover hammerheads are annoying as hell, can be worse if you go for old kroot builds

Low:
black templars (who really just need a codex update, nothing wrong with them really otherwise)
dark angels (who will probably be mid or upper mid tier after their codex updates but is again held back by old old codex)

 Phazael wrote:
I said they were better than GK in 5th and even better than them in 6th. Therefor, my statement does not conflict with yours.

I meant that Necrons are better in 6th ed than they were in 5th

In comparison to 5th edition :
It is important to note the GK are still a top-tier codex. Their rockstars for their cost, but they are not the 'win button' they were in 5th edition.

Force weapons are AP3
While they still kill MEQ dead, the GK have a solid counter of any terminator. A SW squad can now take all the force weapon hits on their terminator WG with the squad, allowing them to absorb the hits.

FNP now works against force weapons. This allows BA squads to have a 1/3 chance of surviving the hits. In 5th edition, BA assault squads always lost vs GK, now they have a chance.


Rapid Fire weapons shoot max range on the move
While SBs have not gotten any worse, rapid fire weapons have gotten better. This means that the comparison difference between the bolter and storm bolter is not as big as it once was.

Storm bolters are still the superior weapon, of course, but the margin is not as great as it once was.


Vehicles are nurfed
Hull points and vehicles getting hit on a 3+ by krak gernades has made razorspam a lot less effective. While razorspam can still work in a lot of cases, its also quite possible to have tac marines just assault the tanks and tear them open.

Also there are less vehicles on the board, which means that the OP psydreads are finding less of a role. Since there are less vehicles, they are not as much of an advantage any more over the STR 7 riflemen dreads. Both wound most models on a 2+


More foot armies
This means more people are bringing anti-infantry weapons. This is bad news for GK, as they are very expensive point for point. The massive increase of PGs and bolters that were seeing in today's meta has put a pinch on the GK.


Wound Allocation Magic Gone
Before a unit of paladins could just stand in the middle of the board and let Draigo take every hit, then wound allocate across all the paladins. This is no longer the case, as you must take from the closest model. Sure, you can place Draigo in front, but its pretty easy to work around him.

are PCs good vs palaadins?

PCs = Plasma Cannons? They're better than nothing but you'll want to hit them with S8+ so that you can instakill them.

 felixander wrote:
PCs = Plasma Cannons? They're better than nothing but you'll want to hit them with S8+ so that you can instakill them.

its not that easy to find weapons that have S8 and AP2 :(

I see you play IG. LR Demolishers, Demolition Charges, Lascannons, Meltaguns/Multis/cannons, and Medusa artillery.

As for Necrons you get Doomsday Rays... Those things will destroy anything, ESPECIALLY Paladins. Doomsday is another good option.

 felixander wrote:
I see you play IG. LR Demolishers, Demolition Charges, Lascannons, Meltaguns/Multis/cannons, and Medusa artillery.

As for Necrons you get Doomsday Rays... Those things will destroy anything, ESPECIALLY Paladins. Doomsday is another good option.

Those are good too kill paladins but either you have to get very close or you only kill one paladin.

Demolisher is well outside of charge range from the Paladins, Demo Charge via Marbo and/or SWS out of Vendetta are easily delivered, Lascannons don't need to be close, suicide MeltaVets (or via Vendetta), Medusa has some good range.

I didnt think of it that way because ive never played with IG.

 labmouse42 wrote:
In comparison to 5th edition :
It is important to note the GK are still a top-tier codex. Their rockstars for their cost, but they are not the 'win button' they were in 5th edition.

Force weapons are AP3
While they still kill MEQ dead, the GK have a solid counter of any terminator. A SW squad can now take all the force weapon hits on their terminator WG with the squad, allowing them to absorb the hits.

FNP now works against force weapons. This allows BA squads to have a 1/3 chance of surviving the hits. In 5th edition, BA assault squads always lost vs GK, now they have a chance.


Rapid Fire weapons shoot max range on the move
While SBs have not gotten any worse, rapid fire weapons have gotten better. This means that the comparison difference between the bolter and storm bolter is not as big as it once was.

Storm bolters are still the superior weapon, of course, but the margin is not as great as it once was.


Vehicles are nurfed
Hull points and vehicles getting hit on a 3+ by krak gernades has made razorspam a lot less effective. While razorspam can still work in a lot of cases, its also quite possible to have tac marines just assault the tanks and tear them open.

Also there are less vehicles on the board, which means that the OP psydreads are finding less of a role. Since there are less vehicles, they are not as much of an advantage any more over the STR 7 riflemen dreads. Both wound most models on a 2+


More foot armies
This means more people are bringing anti-infantry weapons. This is bad news for GK, as they are very expensive point for point. The massive increase of PGs and bolters that were seeing in today's meta has put a pinch on the GK.


Wound Allocation Magic Gone
Before a unit of paladins could just stand in the middle of the board and let Draigo take every hit, then wound allocate across all the paladins. This is no longer the case, as you must take from the closest model. Sure, you can place Draigo in front, but its pretty easy to work around him.

I just wanted to point out that, while you can take FNP against force weapons. You can't take FNP when Force is activated. FNP is not classified as a save, and force is applied "Immediately" when an unsaved wound is caused. Making the wounds insta death. FNP can not be used on insta death wounds.

Vindicare assassins are OP

 Tomten wrote:
Vindicare assassins are OP

How.

 Tomten wrote:
Vindicare assassins are OP

They are powerful but limited not OP

 Tomten wrote:
Vindicare assassins are OP

I'm surprised someone can say that with straight face. Vindicare were good in 5e and are pretty meh in 6e. Previously you could use them to snipe characters and IC's, both which get Look Out Sir! nowadays. Vindicares are also worthless against flyers and there are less vehicles around for them to kill. No, I wouldn't call Vindicare OP by any stretch, though he will ruin your day if you're fond of using Land Raiders or Monoliths.

As far as the original question goes: Grey Knights were nerfed relatively more than other armies were, but that brought them in line with other codexes and I'd consider GK to be in top tier with IG and SW . Obviously Necrons are the king of the 6e, but they were top tier codex in 5e, arguably as strong as GK were, and unlike GK, were buffed by the 5e->6e transition.

Labmouse covered most of the changes, but there are few important ones he missed:
* No more assaulting out of Rhinos/Razorbacks. This is one of the reasons people are moving from Purifiers to Strikes.
* Hull points changed Fortitude from being 'awesome' to merely 'ok'. Fortitude was hugely underpriced in 5e.

its just my opinion.

 Tomten wrote:
its just my opinion.

Opinions are fine, but when your opinion disagrees with established fact, it becomes just a false idea.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
its just my opinion.

Opinions are fine, but when your opinion disagrees with established fact, it becomes just a false idea.

A Vindicare is a model worth 145 point who can oneshoot every tank in the game except for Apocalypse.

 Tomten wrote:

A Vindicare is a model worth 145 point who can oneshoot every tank in the game except for Apocalypse.

Marbo is 65 points and can do the same.

A Lascannon +carrier is 25 points and can do the same.

A lone wolf with a meltabomb is 25 points and can do the same.

I don't get your logic, here.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

A Vindicare is a model worth 145 point who can oneshoot every tank in the game except for Apocalypse.

Marbo is 65 points and can do the same.

A Lascannon +carrier is 25 points and can do the same.

A lone wolf with a meltabomb is 25 points and can do the same.

I don't get your logic, here.

Exactly vindicares are only useful at hunting big targets against normal foot heavy armies thy really cannot live up to their billing.

Whats with all the short posts? It comes off as a tad rude In my opinion.

Yes GK took a slight nerf, Yes they are still top tier. They still hard counter hordes and trash most MEQ and TEQ units. Yes they still crumble under high volume of High Strength Shooting, such as Tau.

Explained.

All right then a vindicare isnt so OP


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But how exactly can marbo oneshot a land raider?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

A Vindicare is a model worth 145 point who can oneshoot every tank in the game except for Apocalypse.

Marbo is 65 points and can do the same.

A Lascannon +carrier is 25 points and can do the same.

A lone wolf with a meltabomb is 25 points and can do the same.

I don't get your logic, here.

Marbo and Meltabombs need time to prep to charge it, in which you can easily kill a single model. Lascannons need to hit and then get a 6 to pen...not too likely. A Vindicare will on average glance AV14 with just 2 dice, but you get 4 dice, meaning you're VERY likely to pen. And it's from one of the highest (if not the highest) BS models in the game...

I'm not saying he's OP, definitely not as good as he was, BUT he is still good a VERSATILE.

 felixander wrote:
Marbo and Meltabombs need time to prep to charge it, in which you can easily kill a single model. Lascannons need to hit and then get a 6 to pen...not too likely. A Vindicare will on average glance AV14 with just 2 dice, but you get 4 dice, meaning you're VERY likely to pen. And it's from one of the highest (if not the highest) BS models in the game...

Hang on, how do you figure that? Is there a FAQ somewhere I missed? I thought a Vindicare just got his 4D6 to penetrate? Giving him an average armour penetration score of 14?

 Kaldor wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Marbo and Meltabombs need time to prep to charge it, in which you can easily kill a single model. Lascannons need to hit and then get a 6 to pen...not too likely. A Vindicare will on average glance AV14 with just 2 dice, but you get 4 dice, meaning you're VERY likely to pen. And it's from one of the highest (if not the highest) BS models in the game...

Hang on, how do you figure that? Is there a FAQ somewhere I missed? I thought a Vindicare just got his 4D6 to penetrate? Giving him an average armour penetration score of 14?

Some people (including TOs from 2 different tournies I've been too) consider it to be that it rolls 4d6 PLUS it's strength. They take the 4d6 to be rolled instead of a single d6 for armor pen. Either way the weapon also has rending giving it a small boost.

Note: I don't read it that way but my friends and the two aforementioned TOs do so I have decided to fall back on that, though personally I still dislike the ruling.

 felixander wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Marbo and Meltabombs need time to prep to charge it, in which you can easily kill a single model. Lascannons need to hit and then get a 6 to pen...not too likely. A Vindicare will on average glance AV14 with just 2 dice, but you get 4 dice, meaning you're VERY likely to pen. And it's from one of the highest (if not the highest) BS models in the game...

Hang on, how do you figure that? Is there a FAQ somewhere I missed? I thought a Vindicare just got his 4D6 to penetrate? Giving him an average armour penetration score of 14?

Some people (including TOs from 2 different tournies I've been too) consider it to be that it rolls 4d6 PLUS it's strength. They take the 4d6 to be rolled instead of a single d6 for armor pen. Either way the weapon also has rending giving it a small boost.

Note: I don't read it that way but my friends and the two aforementioned TOs do so I have decided to fall back on that, though personally I still dislike the ruling.

It gets d3 for every 6 rolled since it is a sniper weapon and hence rending. That's how we play it

 pizzaguardian wrote:

 felixander wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Marbo and Meltabombs need time to prep to charge it, in which you can easily kill a single model. Lascannons need to hit and then get a 6 to pen...not too likely. A Vindicare will on average glance AV14 with just 2 dice, but you get 4 dice, meaning you're VERY likely to pen. And it's from one of the highest (if not the highest) BS models in the game...

Hang on, how do you figure that? Is there a FAQ somewhere I missed? I thought a Vindicare just got his 4D6 to penetrate? Giving him an average armour penetration score of 14?

Some people (including TOs from 2 different tournies I've been too) consider it to be that it rolls 4d6 PLUS it's strength. They take the 4d6 to be rolled instead of a single d6 for armor pen. Either way the weapon also has rending giving it a small boost.

Note: I don't read it that way but my friends and the two aforementioned TOs do so I have decided to fall back on that, though personally I still dislike the ruling.

It gets d3 for every 6 rolled since it is a sniper weapon and hence rending. That's how we play it

It's not the Rending that I mind, it's that some people say for Armor Pen you roll 4d6, while some say it's 4d6+3

Just to clarify, how the Vindicare works is that his weapon is a special sniper rifle that has the ability to fire a round that rolls 4D6 for armor penetration instead of 2. That means that the armor penetration value rolled by the Vindicare is equal to 3 + 4D6 + D3 for every 6 rolled. Ignoring Rending (since I have other things to do and don't want to spend too long on the math), that gives you an average AP roll of 17, making it extremely likely that you will score a SINGLE penetrating hit against pretty much anything. Note that even though the Vindicare is the best source of single AA shots in the game, he still only has a 36" range, is ID'd by S8, and Still only has about a 30-40% chance of destroying a target with any given shot. Considering that for 10 points more I can bring a squad of 5 Sternguard with Combi-meltas in a drop pod that offer closer to a 95% chance of destroying their AV14 target, I think its clear that the Vindicare is not excessively over-powered.

RegalPhantom wrote:
Just to clarify, how the Vindicare works is that his weapon is a special sniper rifle that has the ability to fire a round that rolls 4D6 for armor penetration instead of 2. That means that the armor penetration value rolled by the Vindicare is equal to 3 + 4D6 + D3 for every 6 rolled. Ignoring Rending (since I have other things to do and don't want to spend too long on the math), that gives you an average AP roll of 17, making it extremely likely that you will score a SINGLE penetrating hit against pretty much anything. Note that even though the Vindicare is the best source of single AA shots in the game, he still only has a 36" range, is ID'd by S8, and Still only has about a 30-40% chance of destroying a target with any given shot. Considering that for 10 points more I can bring a squad of 5 Sternguard with Combi-meltas in a drop pod that offer closer to a 95% chance of destroying their AV14 target, I think its clear that the Vindicare is not excessively over-powered.

Hmm. I had to go and check my rulebook, surprised to see snipers count as S3 against vehicles. Didn't they used to just roll 3D6 or something for armour pen? I'm pretty sure they didn't always have a strength value.

And surely you don't get a further D3 for each 6 you roll? Really?

Guess who never uses their Vindicare...

 Kaldor wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:
Just to clarify, how the Vindicare works is that his weapon is a special sniper rifle that has the ability to fire a round that rolls 4D6 for armor penetration instead of 2. That means that the armor penetration value rolled by the Vindicare is equal to 3 + 4D6 + D3 for every 6 rolled. Ignoring Rending (since I have other things to do and don't want to spend too long on the math), that gives you an average AP roll of 17, making it extremely likely that you will score a SINGLE penetrating hit against pretty much anything. Note that even though the Vindicare is the best source of single AA shots in the game, he still only has a 36" range, is ID'd by S8, and Still only has about a 30-40% chance of destroying a target with any given shot. Considering that for 10 points more I can bring a squad of 5 Sternguard with Combi-meltas in a drop pod that offer closer to a 95% chance of destroying their AV14 target, I think its clear that the Vindicare is not excessively over-powered.

Hmm. I had to go and check my rulebook, surprised to see snipers count as S3 against vehicles. Didn't they used to just roll 3D6 or something for armour pen? I'm pretty sure they didn't always have a strength value.

And surely you don't get a further D3 for each 6 you roll? Really?

Guess who never uses their Vindicare...

It's a Rending weapon, "each armour penetration roll of 6 allows a further D3 to be rolled, with the result added to the total." SHAZAAM.

And yeah snipers used to be 3 + 1d6.

No, they used to be 2D6 (4th). This was changed to 3+1D6+D3 if you rend.

How are you getting a glance against AV14 on 2 dice? The average is only 7, so when you add in the strength of the weapn, as the rules tell you to do, you get to 10.

On average he pens a land raider, as his average roll is 17. However he still only then has a 50% chance to kill a vehicle, unless it is open topped. By the time you include 2+/4+ to hit, your chance of failing to pen AND the damage roll, it "one shots" a vehicle only about 35% of thge time. He is very, very, very far from being OP

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they used to be 2D6 (4th). This was changed to 3+1D6+D3 if you rend.

How are you getting a glance against AV14 on 2 dice? The average is only 7, so when you add in the strength of the weapn, as the rules tell you to do, you get to 10.

On average he pens a land raider, as his average roll is 17. However he still only then has a 50% chance to kill a vehicle, unless it is open topped. By the time you include 2+/4+ to hit, your chance of failing to pen AND the damage roll, it "one shots" a vehicle only about 35% of thge time. He is very, very, very far from being OP

Not to mention cover. Which, if you have any brain, you are using since it's so easy to give Vehicles a 5+ these days.

My army of 3+ cover tau vehicles is rolling in the deep as it were, while my 5 razorbacks and 6 chimeras are really just sitting around now a days.

you roll 4D6 + S3 and every 6 on the 4D6 is a rend

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they used to be 2D6 (4th). This was changed to 3+1D6+D3 if you rend.

OK, I was talking about 5th edition, if we want to go back editions I'm sure 2nd had some crazy pen rolls for them, too.

Not to mention he has a pistol that can use the same rounds. Infiltrate, move, now no cover.

Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

But how about a grand master?? are those easy to kill?

 Lobukia wrote:
Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

It needs to be in a fortified ruin.

Or its boned.

no you can hide it behind your units.

 Tomten wrote:
no you can hide it behind your units.

Then it is 145 points that isn't doing anything except hiding behind stuff.

 Lobukia wrote:


Orks: A typical Draigo Wing list is under 25 models and under 35 wounds and 9 HP at 2k. Orks on the other hand can put out 118 models, 130 wounds, 13 Hp in a 2k force. Mathhammer is on the orks' side.
Again, its not like GK are a close 2nd, and Draigo wing is hardly their best list

And this is where another unit of the GK codex comes in. Purifiers. Got 100 Guys? I dont give a single care. I have a spell which hits EVERY single model in the unit automatically AND wounds on a 4+
Consider those ork's dead.

And Draigo wing. An army of two wound 2 + save guys pouncing around claiming objectives. Virtually Untouchable by small arms fire, you have to use your special ap 2 weapons. One plasma gun couldn't kill more than one terminator, and other weapons have a chance, but would still only kill one guy out of the say, 5 in the squad. The squad will survive long enough to rip everything apart.

 blood lance wrote:

And this is where another unit of the GK codex comes in. Purifiers. Got 100 Guys? I dont give a single care. I have a spell which hits EVERY single model in the unit automatically AND wounds on a 4+
Consider those ork's dead.

Wounds 50%, they save 1/6+ of that. Meh.

And Draigo wing. An army of two wound 2 + save guys pouncing around claiming objectives. Virtually Untouchable by small arms fire, you have to use your special ap 2 weapons. One plasma gun couldn't kill more than one terminator, and other weapons have a chance, but would still only kill one guy out of the say, 5 in the squad. The squad will survive long enough to rip everything apart.

Small arms are great to kill terminators. Make them roll a bunch of saves.

One plasma gun couldn't kill more than one terminator

Except when it kills two.

 felixander wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they used to be 2D6 (4th). This was changed to 3+1D6+D3 if you rend.

OK, I was talking about 5th edition, if we want to go back editions I'm sure 2nd had some crazy pen rolls for them, too.

Which had the same rules as 6th does now. They have not changed in those regards. They never rolled 3D6, although the Vindicares turbopen DID roll 3D6 in the old WH / DH codex

 blood lance wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:


Orks: A typical Draigo Wing list is under 25 models and under 35 wounds and 9 HP at 2k. Orks on the other hand can put out 118 models, 130 wounds, 13 Hp in a 2k force. Mathhammer is on the orks' side.
Again, its not like GK are a close 2nd, and Draigo wing is hardly their best list

And this is where another unit of the GK codex comes in. Purifiers. Got 100 Guys? I dont give a single care. I have a spell which hits EVERY single model in the unit automatically AND wounds on a 4+
Consider those ork's dead.

And Draigo wing. An army of two wound 2 + save guys pouncing around claiming objectives. Virtually Untouchable by small arms fire, you have to use your special ap 2 weapons. One plasma gun couldn't kill more than one terminator, and other weapons have a chance, but would still only kill one guy out of the say, 5 in the squad. The squad will survive long enough to rip everything apart.

Pfft. Draigowing is full of overpriced models that can't ever kill enough of the enemy to contest or claim enough objectives. And heaven help you if you get hit by a Breath of Chaos or a Demolisher cannon. Regular small-arms fire is enough to wear them down with attrition, let alone melta and plasma guns.

Grand master: 2+ save is better due to less ap2 weapons, have to choose of a staves are now ap4, and sword ap3. Nerfed
Champion: challanges sux, have a hard time beating seargeants, only ap3. Nerfed
Librarians: ap4 with the staff, got alot of nice psycic powers. Buffed

Paladins: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Purifiers: less ap. Nerfed

Terminators: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Strike squad: less ap. Nerfed

Stormraven: Flyer. Buffed
Interceptors: less ap, Hammer of wrath. buffed and nerfed

Dakkadread: easier to kill due to HP. Nerfed
Dreadknight: str 10 and extra attack with sword. Buffed

Just a selection of what's changed from 5th to 6th. They have been nerfed quite alot but also some buffs. They were way to OP in 5th so they needed this. They are still very good.

@Vombat

You are missing lots and lots of context. Power weapons were nerfed across the board, so GKs were not nerfed any worse than anyone else. In fact, since they can so easily churn out 2+ armor, you could say they got amazingly buffed. Pretty much no one can touch them in CC without dropping to I1, while they can use their durability to get more use out of their AP2 daemonhammers.

Incubi are pretty much the only ones who can ignore all armor in CC at high Ini, and they are really not that good.

GK remain the only ones out there with all-PW troop choices, Spammable force weapons, Power weapons with addition properties (I6 force weapons to ID HQs preemptively anyone?) and still be amazing at shooting.

 Sephyr wrote:
@Vombat

You are missing lots and lots of context. Power weapons were nerfed across the board, so GKs were not nerfed any worse than anyone else. In fact, since they can so easily churn out 2+ armor, you could say they got amazingly buffed. Pretty much no one can touch them in CC without dropping to I1, while they can use their durability to get more use out of their AP2 daemonhammers.

Incubi are pretty much the only ones who can ignore all armor in CC at high Ini, and they are really not that good.

GK remain the only ones out there with all-PW troop choices, Spammable force weapons, Power weapons with addition properties (I6 force weapons to ID HQs preemptively anyone?) and still be amazing at shooting.

THIS.

Plus every GK has the option to upgrade to the AP2 hammer or the Halberd (as you mentioned).

 Vombat wrote:
Grand master: 2+ save is better due to less ap2 weapons, have to choose of a staves are now ap4, and sword ap3. Nerfed
Champion: challanges sux, have a hard time beating seargeants, only ap3. Nerfed
Librarians: ap4 with the staff, got alot of nice psycic powers. Buffed

Paladins: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Purifiers: less ap. Nerfed

Terminators: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Strike squad: less ap. Nerfed

Stormraven: Flyer. Buffed
Interceptors: less ap, Hammer of wrath. buffed and nerfed

Dakkadread: easier to kill due to HP. Nerfed
Dreadknight: str 10 and extra attack with sword. Buffed

Just a selection of what's changed from 5th to 6th. They have been nerfed quite alot but also some buffs. They were way to OP in 5th so they needed this. They are still very good.

Nemesis Force Staves are unusual force weapons. They are AP3. Reading is fundamental.

 Vombat wrote:
Grand master: 2+ save is better due to less ap2 weapons, have to choose of a staves are now ap4, and sword ap3. Nerfed
Champion: challanges sux, have a hard time beating seargeants, only ap3. Nerfed
Librarians: ap4 with the staff, got alot of nice psycic powers. Buffed

Paladins: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Purifiers: less ap. Nerfed

Terminators: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Strike squad: less ap. Nerfed

Stormraven: Flyer. Buffed
Interceptors: less ap, Hammer of wrath. buffed and nerfed

Dakkadread: easier to kill due to HP. Nerfed
Dreadknight: str 10 and extra attack with sword. Buffed


Just a selection of what's changed from 5th to 6th. They have been nerfed quite alot but also some buffs. They were way to OP in 5th so they needed this. They are still very good.

The only this that is nerfed among GK infantry is the AP of their FWs

 Tomten wrote:

 Vombat wrote:
Grand master: 2+ save is better due to less ap2 weapons, have to choose of a staves are now ap4, and sword ap3. Nerfed
Champion: challanges sux, have a hard time beating seargeants, only ap3. Nerfed
Librarians: ap4 with the staff, got alot of nice psycic powers. Buffed

Paladins: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Purifiers: less ap. Nerfed

Terminators: better save, less ap. Nerfed
Strike squad: less ap. Nerfed

Stormraven: Flyer. Buffed
Interceptors: less ap, Hammer of wrath. buffed and nerfed

Dakkadread: easier to kill due to HP. Nerfed
Dreadknight: str 10 and extra attack with sword. Buffed


Just a selection of what's changed from 5th to 6th. They have been nerfed quite alot but also some buffs. They were way to OP in 5th so they needed this. They are still very good.

The only this that is nerfed among GK infantry is the AP of their FWs

Relatively speaking, Storm Bolters aren't as superior to Bolters as they used to be.

But stormbolters with psybolt ammo are superior to bolters.

 Sephyr wrote:
@Vombat
You are missing lots and lots of context. Power weapons were nerfed across the board, so GKs were not nerfed any worse than anyone else.

Actually, they were. Because GK have more power weapons than other armies, nerfing Power weapons is larger nerf to GK than to other armies. (And Tyranids weren't nerfed at all by the power weapon change.)
Exactly same way as nerfing CC across the board would be larger nerf for Tyranids than it would be for Tau.

 Sephyr wrote:
In fact, since they can so easily churn out 2+ armor, you could say they got amazingly buffed.

And you'd be wrong. Because you seem to somehow think that there is no AP2 shooting weapons in the game. While power weapon change made 2+ armor generally better, GK termies actually got worse against 2+ armored enemies than they were, because before they could kill most enemies with Halberds before they could strike and now have to use Daemonhammers for those.

 Sephyr wrote:
IPretty much no one can touch them in CC without dropping to I1, while they can use their durability to get more use out of their AP2 daemonhammers.

First, those AP2 Daemonhammers strike at I1, so striking at I1 against them is no an actual disadvantage. Second GK Terminators aren't actually durable. For durable CC units, see TH/SS Termies or Wraiths.

 Sephyr wrote:
IIncubi are pretty much the only ones who can ignore all armor in CC at high Ini, and they are really not that good.

Add most MC's and many CSM characters to that list.

 Sephyr wrote:
GK remain the only ones out there with all-PW troop choices, Spammable force weapons, Power weapons with addition properties (I6 force weapons to ID HQs preemptively anyone?)

And exactly how many CC oriented HQ's there are without 2+ save or no psychic defence?

Note that I personally think it was good thing GK got nerfed as heavily as they did. But point is, they definitely got nerfed a lot more than for example SW, IG or C:SM did, not to mention Nids, Tau and Necrons which all got boosted.

Dont forget lychguards they have AP1 with warscythes

Grey Knights are still fairly powerful, but not so much as they were. A lot of the changes in 6e have had rather mixed effects on the Grey Knights; let's take a look.

AP3 on normal power weapons. Terminators, which GK have easy access to, got a lot tougher, while Nemesis weapons got a little weaker; slightly positive in the long run.

Deny the Witch: Again, Grey Knights got more defenses against other peoples' psychic powers, but everyone else gets defenses against theirs. Slightly more positive here, since Grey Knights don't use many offensive powers.

Vehicle damage: On one hand the Grey Knights lost effective transports, which were central to their tactics in 5e, but on the other hand no vehicle is now safe from S8 psycannon spam. The Grey Knights' general lack of range is going to be a problem in 6e, this change is fairly negative for them.

Overwatch: Very good for the Grey Knights; they're tough enough to withstand Overwatch fire from other people, while getting to Overwatch with S5 Storm Bolters and the aforementioned S8 Psycannons.

Flyers: A problem; Grey Knights don't have a lot of range to down them, and Stormravens are fairly expensive as flyers go. Not insurmountable, but troubling.

So they'll probably end up playing differently, but they haven't really been nerfed or buffed all that significantly by 6e.

Gk are still expensive.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Knights are still fairly powerful, but not so much as they were. A lot of the changes in 6e have had rather mixed effects on the Grey Knights; let's take a look.

AP3 on normal power weapons. Terminators, which GK have easy access to, got a lot tougher, while Nemesis weapons got a little weaker; slightly positive in the long run.

Deny the Witch: Again, Grey Knights got more defenses against other peoples' psychic powers, but everyone else gets defenses against theirs. Slightly more positive here, since Grey Knights don't use many offensive powers.

Vehicle damage: On one hand the Grey Knights lost effective transports, which were central to their tactics in 5e, but on the other hand no vehicle is now safe from S8 psycannon spam. The Grey Knights' general lack of range is going to be a problem in 6e, this change is fairly negative for them.

Overwatch: Very good for the Grey Knights; they're tough enough to withstand Overwatch fire from other people, while getting to Overwatch with S5 Storm Bolters and the aforementioned S8 Psycannons.

Flyers: A problem; Grey Knights don't have a lot of range to down them, and Stormravens are fairly expensive as flyers go. Not insurmountable, but troubling.

So they'll probably end up playing differently, but they haven't really been nerfed or buffed all that significantly by 6e.

There is no such thing as a S8 psycannon.

 Kaldor wrote:

Pfft. Draigowing is full of overpriced models that can't ever kill enough of the enemy to contest or claim enough objectives.

I admit that Draigowing is lackluster, but when was the last time you played a 6th edition game where contesting or claiming objectives mattered?

I haven't participated in a 6th edition game where one side isn't tabled in months.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Knights are still fairly powerful, but not so much as they were. A lot of the changes in 6e have had rather mixed effects on the Grey Knights; let's take a look.

AP3 on normal power weapons. Terminators, which GK have easy access to, got a lot tougher, while Nemesis weapons got a little weaker; slightly positive in the long run.

Deny the Witch: Again, Grey Knights got more defenses against other peoples' psychic powers, but everyone else gets defenses against theirs. Slightly more positive here, since Grey Knights don't use many offensive powers.

Vehicle damage: On one hand the Grey Knights lost effective transports, which were central to their tactics in 5e, but on the other hand no vehicle is now safe from S8 psycannon spam. The Grey Knights' general lack of range is going to be a problem in 6e, this change is fairly negative for them.

Overwatch: Very good for the Grey Knights; they're tough enough to withstand Overwatch fire from other people, while getting to Overwatch with S5 Storm Bolters and the aforementioned S8 Psycannons.

Flyers: A problem; Grey Knights don't have a lot of range to down them, and Stormravens are fairly expensive as flyers go. Not insurmountable, but troubling.

So they'll probably end up playing differently, but they haven't really been nerfed or buffed all that significantly by 6e.

There is no such thing as a S8 psycannon.

Think he was referring to Psyflemen.

The only people I've noticed who think GK's have been hugely nerfed by 6th edition, are those dumb who think they can still play 5th ed style tactics and steamroll the opposition with little required effort.
Those who have woken up to the new edition and have been actively working to adapt their army/ies and their tactics have found that GK's are still top contenders, but they're no longer head-and-shoulders above everyone else like they were in 5th!

If Warp Quake is still present, (which I'm finding it's becoming more commonplace), then my Daemons for example are still pretty screwed... Coteaze lists still rank among the top, while GK's still have some insane hard-counters to specific lists.

Do daemons stand a chance against GK?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Pfft. Draigowing is full of overpriced models that can't ever kill enough of the enemy to contest or claim enough objectives.

I admit that Draigowing is lackluster, but when was the last time you played a 6th edition game where contesting or claiming objectives mattered?

I haven't participated in a 6th edition game where one side isn't tabled in months.

Well, that's certainly not the case round these parts.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The only people I've noticed who think GK's have been hugely nerfed by 6th edition, are those dumb who think they can still play 5th ed style tactics and steamroll the opposition with little required effort.
Those who have woken up to the new edition and have been actively working to adapt their army/ies and their tactics have found that GK's are still top contenders, but they're no longer head-and-shoulders above everyone else like they were in 5th!

Well, you've got an oversimplification here (and a not-so-vague insult). Their primary play style WAS nerfed, The way to stay competitive in spite of that was to write off assaulty elements, and become even more shooty still, which leads to admittedly brain-dead things like spamming nothing but psyflemen, psybolt strikes, and psycannon inquisitors with prescience, and then just pointing and clicking. Pity, but I feel like the biggest thing GK actually lost was that everything in the army was good enough to seriously consider taking.

If Warp Quake is still present, (which I'm finding it's becoming more commonplace), then my Daemons for example are still pretty screwed... Coteaze lists still rank among the top, while GK's still have some insane hard-counters to specific lists.

It's increase in commonality is directly caused by my above statement. It was not a good idea for them to give out such a power to both, the cheapest GK units, and the only GK unit capable of crossing the board turn 1.

On the bright side, you have CSM allies as an option now. Perhaps it's time to consider diversification. I have with my IG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

I haven't participated in a 6th edition game where one side isn't tabled in months.

Yeah, I'm getting this a lot too. About 90% of our games have ended with someone ready to call it by the bottom of turn 2, and then it will play out to someone being tabled by 4-5 at the latest. In fact, last game I had, I lost because I tried to go for the Relic, not the table.

I'm thinking next time I play, I'm going to completely blow off objectives and just walk over my opponent. See how that works out.

purifiers are still good

 daedalus wrote:

Well, you've got an oversimplification here (and a not-so-vague insult). Their primary play style WAS nerfed, The way to stay competitive in spite of that was to write off assaulty elements, and become even more shooty still, which leads to admittedly brain-dead things like spamming nothing but psyflemen, psybolt strikes, and psycannon inquisitors with prescience, and then just pointing and clicking. Pity, but I feel like the biggest thing GK actually lost was that everything in the army was good enough to seriously consider taking.

Hold the phone a minute here. People weren't playing that in 5th? It was their best army then too.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

Well, you've got an oversimplification here (and a not-so-vague insult). Their primary play style WAS nerfed, The way to stay competitive in spite of that was to write off assaulty elements, and become even more shooty still, which leads to admittedly brain-dead things like spamming nothing but psyflemen, psybolt strikes, and psycannon inquisitors with prescience, and then just pointing and clicking. Pity, but I feel like the biggest thing GK actually lost was that everything in the army was good enough to seriously consider taking.

Hold the phone a minute here. People weren't playing that in 5th? It was their best army then too.

They were good. I'm not sure if they were Paladin or Purifier spam good though. 5th ed MSU purifier spam was pretty mean, and the sea of netlist clones that plagued the Army List section for about a year seems to indicate that this was the prevailing list, at least for whatever version of the game the Internet plays.

Personally, I always liked Terminator spam in 5th ed, but then again, I like running underdog lists. Nowadays, I feel like you can't hide the important parts of a 5 man Terminator (or Purifier) squad well enough to be effective against decent counter-fire, and Paladins are weak-sauce compared with what they used to be.

 daedalus wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

Well, you've got an oversimplification here (and a not-so-vague insult). Their primary play style WAS nerfed, The way to stay competitive in spite of that was to write off assaulty elements, and become even more shooty still, which leads to admittedly brain-dead things like spamming nothing but psyflemen, psybolt strikes, and psycannon inquisitors with prescience, and then just pointing and clicking. Pity, but I feel like the biggest thing GK actually lost was that everything in the army was good enough to seriously consider taking.

Hold the phone a minute here. People weren't playing that in 5th? It was their best army then too.

They were good. I'm not sure if they were Paladin or Purifier spam good though. 5th ed MSU purifier spam was pretty mean, and the sea of netlist clones that plagued the Army List section for about a year seems to indicate that this was the prevailing list, at least for whatever version of the game the Internet plays.

Personally, I always liked Terminator spam in 5th ed, but then again, I like running underdog lists. Nowadays, I feel like you can't hide the important parts of a 5 man Terminator (or Purifier) squad well enough to be effective against decent counter-fire, and Paladins are weak-sauce compared with what they used to be.

Why are Paladins weaker now?

 Tomten wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

Well, you've got an oversimplification here (and a not-so-vague insult). Their primary play style WAS nerfed, The way to stay competitive in spite of that was to write off assaulty elements, and become even more shooty still, which leads to admittedly brain-dead things like spamming nothing but psyflemen, psybolt strikes, and psycannon inquisitors with prescience, and then just pointing and clicking. Pity, but I feel like the biggest thing GK actually lost was that everything in the army was good enough to seriously consider taking.

Hold the phone a minute here. People weren't playing that in 5th? It was their best army then too.

They were good. I'm not sure if they were Paladin or Purifier spam good though. 5th ed MSU purifier spam was pretty mean, and the sea of netlist clones that plagued the Army List section for about a year seems to indicate that this was the prevailing list, at least for whatever version of the game the Internet plays.

Personally, I always liked Terminator spam in 5th ed, but then again, I like running underdog lists. Nowadays, I feel like you can't hide the important parts of a 5 man Terminator (or Purifier) squad well enough to be effective against decent counter-fire, and Paladins are weak-sauce compared with what they used to be.

Why are Paladins weaker now?

Well, they're not really weaker on paper, but I say this mostly because they closed the possibilities allowed with wound allocation. Now instead of being terminators that you practically HAVE to shut down with S8+, they're terminators that are slightly more annoying to kill with small arms and plasma fire.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
To that point, consider that I have a plasma CCS. It's the high end of plasma fire, I realize, but bear with me. 9 plasma shots, with 6 of them hitting, and then 5 of them wounding. 2 Paladins are dead, compared with 0 Paladins dead.

Further, the only way they could have gotten close enough to cause this to happen is through transport, so you can assume they either had 12" movement with a Chimera, or gotten pretty much anywhere from a Valk. You better have hidden those psycannons impossibly well, otherwise odds are you lost at least one.

Is Draigowing still good? You almost only have 2 Wound models and a 2+ save and a 5+ FNP and 5+ inv save.

No.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
No.

Yeah to expand on what darkness is pointing out draigowing looks exceptional to a new player but they have big problems.

1. S8 ap2 whch there is a fair amount of turns that 2 wound 2+/5++/5+++ into a 5++ make this or die.
2. Massed small arms fire tend to take you down.
3. Also your models cost 55 points each and if you take the hard to kill big block (Which is near to a thousand points) it can only claim 1 objective making it much weaker than it was in fifth.

 captain collius wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
No.

Yeah to expand on what darkness is pointing out draigowing looks exceptional to a new player but they have big problems.

1. S8 ap2 whch there is a fair amount of turns that 2 wound 2+/5++/5+++ into a 5++ make this or die.
2. Massed small arms fire tend to take you down.
3. Also your models cost 55 points each and if you take the hard to kill big block (Which is near to a thousand points) it can only claim 1 objective making it much weaker than it was in fifth.

The only weapons i can think of which have AP 2 and S8 is kustom mega blastas and bright/ dark lances. But still there are demolisher cannons, shokk attack guns, meltas Doomsday cannon, death rays, lascannons, prism cannons, blasters, railguns, zzapguns and the list continues.

 Tomten wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
No.

Yeah to expand on what darkness is pointing out draigowing looks exceptional to a new player but they have big problems.

1. S8 ap2 whch there is a fair amount of turns that 2 wound 2+/5++/5+++ into a 5++ make this or die.
2. Massed small arms fire tend to take you down.
3. Also your models cost 55 points each and if you take the hard to kill big block (Which is near to a thousand points) it can only claim 1 objective making it much weaker than it was in fifth.

The only weapons i can think of which have AP 2 and S8 is kustom mega blastas and bright/ dark lances. But still there are demolisher cannons, shokk attack guns, meltas Doomsday cannon, death rays, lascannons, prism cannons, blasters, railguns, zzapguns and the list continues.

You've forgotten the most used AP2 gun in the game IMO (Plasma Gun) Be it IOM or TAU plasma gets it done.

Of course this is me forgetting that Str8 was explicitly mentioned.
Also Lascannons are Str9, Railguns are Str10 ap1, think the Prism isn't 8/2 either (rusty with the elves though)

Plasma is S7. (S6 for Tau)

 pretre wrote:
Plasma is S7. (S6 for Tau)

Somehow I managed not to read the Str 8 part of that ... my bad.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
No.

Yeah to expand on what darkness is pointing out draigowing looks exceptional to a new player but they have big problems.

1. S8 ap2 whch there is a fair amount of turns that 2 wound 2+/5++/5+++ into a 5++ make this or die.
2. Massed small arms fire tend to take you down.
3. Also your models cost 55 points each and if you take the hard to kill big block (Which is near to a thousand points) it can only claim 1 objective making it much weaker than it was in fifth.

The only weapons i can think of which have AP 2 and S8 is kustom mega blastas and bright/ dark lances. But still there are demolisher cannons, shokk attack guns, meltas Doomsday cannon, death rays, lascannons, prism cannons, blasters, railguns, zzapguns and the list continues.

You've forgotten the most used AP2 gun in the game IMO (Plasma Gun) Be it IOM or TAU plasma gets it done.

i just wrote down weapons which have at least S8 and can get it, and weapons with at least AP2.

Melta guns come to mind as well, and those heavy tanks that SoB have.

Devil dogs can do a nice job as well

 Tomten wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
No.

Yeah to expand on what darkness is pointing out draigowing looks exceptional to a new player but they have big problems.

1. S8+ ap2- which there is a fair amount of turns that 2 wound 2+/5++/5+++ into a 5++ make this or die.
2. Massed small arms fire tend to take you down.
3. Also your models cost 55 points each and if you take the hard to kill big block (Which is near to a thousand points) it can only claim 1 objective making it much weaker than it was in fifth.

The only weapons i can think of which have AP 2 and S8 is kustom mega blastas and bright/ dark lances. But still there are demolisher cannons, shokk attack guns, meltas Doomsday cannon, death rays, lascannons, prism cannons, blasters, railguns, zzapguns and the list continues.

You've forgotten the most used AP2 gun in the game IMO (Plasma Gun) Be it IOM or TAU plasma gets it done.

i just wrote down weapons which have at least S8 and can get it, and weapons with at least AP2.

Emphasis mine. Also yes the humble plasma works quite well. (believe me I know) My point was simply meaant to be weapons like that only allow for 1 5+ save and take care of the two wounds in a way the plasma cannot.

The medusa can do a good job also.

 Lobukia wrote:
Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

2+ cover and 4++ with FNP is fragile?

 Exergy wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

2+ cover and 4++ with FNP is fragile?

He has a 6+ FNP. how can he has 2+ cover?

 Tomten wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

2+ cover and 4++ with FNP is fragile?

He has a 6+ FNP. how can he has 2+ cover?

Bolstered ruin for a 3+ and has stealth for a 2+

Or just within a fortification as noted on P.18 for cover saves.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Faced a vindicare 4 times... it fired once so far. Its a stand alone fleshy model. Shot the thing and move on, is so much more fragile than a vehicle. If anything I think its too expensive.

2+ cover and 4++ with FNP is fragile?

He has a 6+ FNP. how can he has 2+ cover?

Bolstered ruin for a 3+ and has stealth for a 2+

Or just within a fortification as noted on P.18 for cover saves.

But then you have to take a techpriest if you want to have 2+ cover in a ruin.

 Tomten wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Bolstered ruin for a 3+ and has stealth for a 2+

Or just within a fortification as noted on P.18 for cover saves.

But then you have to take a techpriest if you want to have 2+ cover in a ruin.

Correct, or just put out a fortification and have a 3+ base cover save.

How do you have a fort that has a 3+ cover save right now? I've been told that all the battlements are 4+, skyshield gives like nothing, defense lines are 4+ also. There's currently nothing that's taking advantage of the fortification rules atm since everything has been FAQ'ed to 4+ as far as I'm aware.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Bolstered ruin for a 3+ and has stealth for a 2+

Or just within a fortification as noted on P.18 for cover saves.

But then you have to take a techpriest if you want to have 2+ cover in a ruin.

Correct, or just put out a fortification and have a 3+ base cover save.

Either way, 4 krak missiles, 1 misses or fails to wound, 3+ save, statistically dead... From the attention of a bored havoc squad. Mine usually is behind an ADL, so a quad is in the mix to seal the deal. Since there's no fliers on turn one anyway, its time well spent for me.

 sudojoe wrote:
How do you have a fort that has a 3+ cover save right now? I've been told that all the battlements are 4+, skyshield gives like nothing, defense lines are 4+ also. There's currently nothing that's taking advantage of the fortification rules atm since everything has been FAQ'ed to 4+ as far as I'm aware.

You put a fortification out on the board as terrain.

Fortifications are not only those that are bought with an army, you can have fortified bunkers, buildings etc... that are terrain pieces and are not one of the 4 listed "Fortifications".

Battlements are 4+, ADL's are 4+ The Skyshield gives a cover save and it is a fortification.

 Tomten wrote:
Do daemons stand a chance against GK?

Daemons are lucky to even be allowed to deploy against Grey Knights since everyone and their mother now takes Strikes and/or Interceptors.

If the Daemon player wins first turn, then we have a shot at it with a good alpha strike. If the Grey Knight player goes first and has one or more Warp Quake units that make their psychic tests... Well, I may as well just leave my Daemons in the case at that point.

Dark Ex is also a bit beyond silly, since our Daemons Princes can suddenly forget which God created them!



However, the funniest thing you'll ever hear in 40k is a Grey Knight player whining that Daemons are broken OP because of the WD update, Skarbrand and Flesh Hounds.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Knights are still fairly powerful, but not so much as they were. A lot of the changes in 6e have had rather mixed effects on the Grey Knights; let's take a look.

AP3 on normal power weapons. Terminators, which GK have easy access to, got a lot tougher, while Nemesis weapons got a little weaker; slightly positive in the long run.

Deny the Witch: Again, Grey Knights got more defenses against other peoples' psychic powers, but everyone else gets defenses against theirs. Slightly more positive here, since Grey Knights don't use many offensive powers.

Vehicle damage: On one hand the Grey Knights lost effective transports, which were central to their tactics in 5e, but on the other hand no vehicle is now safe from S8 psycannon spam. The Grey Knights' general lack of range is going to be a problem in 6e, this change is fairly negative for them.

Overwatch: Very good for the Grey Knights; they're tough enough to withstand Overwatch fire from other people, while getting to Overwatch with S5 Storm Bolters and the aforementioned S8 Psycannons.

Flyers: A problem; Grey Knights don't have a lot of range to down them, and Stormravens are fairly expensive as flyers go. Not insurmountable, but troubling.

So they'll probably end up playing differently, but they haven't really been nerfed or buffed all that significantly by 6e.

There is no such thing as a S8 psycannon.

Sorry; mistyped. S7 Rending is just as dangerous to most vehicles as S8, though, and S8 Psyflemen Dreadnaughts are still a thing.

Are GKs nerfed? Yes. One of their 3 main competitive builds (Draigowing) is dead, several of their advantages are longer as significant (tearing apart light vehicles, assault vs MeQ, storm bolters), and there have been some direct nerfs (DtW, FWs being AP3).

Are they still overpowered? Absolutely.

reaper with no name wrote:
Are GKs nerfed? Yes. One of their 3 main competitive builds (Draigowing) is dead, several of their advantages are longer as significant (tearing apart light vehicles, assault vs MeQ, storm bolters), and there have been some direct nerfs (DtW, FWs being AP3).

Are they still overpowered? Absolutely.

If you think GK are OP, I wonder what you think about Necrons or IG (especially with SW allies) which are both way above GK in power scale.

There was not doubt that when our codex first came out, we sat at the top of the tree for 5th edition, and yes we were op. However with 6th with have been reigned in a bit, I would say even with crons, guard & wolves. Big changes being vehicles easyier to kill, and the whole not assaulting from transports (even scoring in transports) hit quite hard.

So, grey knights are still are very strong codex, just not as strong as they were.

I think that the vindicare assassin is the best assassin.

Luide wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:
Are GKs nerfed? Yes. One of their 3 main competitive builds (Draigowing) is dead, several of their advantages are longer as significant (tearing apart light vehicles, assault vs MeQ, storm bolters), and there have been some direct nerfs (DtW, FWs being AP3).

Are they still overpowered? Absolutely.

If you think GK are OP, I wonder what you think about Necrons or IG (especially with SW allies) which are both way above GK in power scale.

I think they're both way above GKs in power scale.

reaper with no name wrote:

Luide wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:
Are GKs nerfed? Yes. One of their 3 main competitive builds (Draigowing) is dead, several of their advantages are longer as significant (tearing apart light vehicles, assault vs MeQ, storm bolters), and there have been some direct nerfs (DtW, FWs being AP3).

Are they still overpowered? Absolutely.

If you think GK are OP, I wonder what you think about Necrons or IG (especially with SW allies) which are both way above GK in power scale.

I think they're both way above GKs in power scale.

Why are IG with SW allies OP?

It's the alphastrike harmony that should have never happened. See also Prescience on HWS/tanks.

 tuiman wrote:
There was not doubt that when our codex first came out, we sat at the top of the tree for 5th edition, and yes we were op. However with 6th with have been reigned in a bit, I would say even with crons, guard & wolves. Big changes being vehicles easyier to kill, and the whole not assaulting from transports (even scoring in transports) hit quite hard.

So, grey knights are still are very strong codex, just not as strong as they were.

...Wait, you were assaulting from non-Land-Raider transports in 5e? You couldn't assault out of Rhinos back then, either...

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
There was not doubt that when our codex first came out, we sat at the top of the tree for 5th edition, and yes we were op. However with 6th with have been reigned in a bit, I would say even with crons, guard & wolves. Big changes being vehicles easyier to kill, and the whole not assaulting from transports (even scoring in transports) hit quite hard.

So, grey knights are still are very strong codex, just not as strong as they were.

...Wait, you were assaulting from non-Land-Raider transports in 5e? You couldn't assault out of Rhinos back then, either...

If you didn't move the transport you could.

Can youassault from an open topped transport when it moved?

6" yes.

So you can move 6 with your transport then disembark 6 then assault 2D6?

It's all described clearly in your Rulebook in the Vehicle section (~pg65)

 Tomten wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:

Luide wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:
Are GKs nerfed? Yes. One of their 3 main competitive builds (Draigowing) is dead, several of their advantages are longer as significant (tearing apart light vehicles, assault vs MeQ, storm bolters), and there have been some direct nerfs (DtW, FWs being AP3).

Are they still overpowered? Absolutely.

If you think GK are OP, I wonder what you think about Necrons or IG (especially with SW allies) which are both way above GK in power scale.

I think they're both way above GKs in power scale.

Why are IG with SW allies OP?

First off, IG are stronger than GKs to begin with (and some would argue that SWs are as well). But there is a lot of synergy between SWs and IG. In fact, Tony Kopach used this synergy to win at NOVA.

can you take 4 rune priests with prescience an allies to IG?

They are BB, so yes, you can.

reaper with no name wrote:
They are BB, so yes, you can.

But can you take the same psychic powers to all of the Runepriests?

Yes, why couldnt you? You dont "take" the BRB powers at list building time, you do so at the start of the game.

You cannot take 4 as allies, only 2

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, why couldnt you? You dont "take" the BRB powers at list building time, you do so at the start of the game.

You cannot take 4 as allies, only 2

Because the SW codex says that no two characters may have the same psychic powers.

When you build the list. Which is before you change to the BRB powers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
When you build the list. Which is before you change to the BRB powers.

The codex just says that no two characters may have the same psychic powers.

 Tomten wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
When you build the list. Which is before you change to the BRB powers.

The codex just says that no two characters may have the same psychic powers.

Check the FaQ:

Q: Can you clarify how The Leaders of the Pack works with regards to
psychic powers? (p81)
A: No number of Rune Priests may share the exact same two
psychic powers...
If you choose instead to take psychic powers from the disciplines in
the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, this restriction does not
apply, as the specific powers are selected randomly.


Page 6: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570051a_Space_Wolves_v1.1.pdf

But thats just good.