Are you asking what everyone's favorite retconn is? Or are you trying to ask for our own personal way of smoothing over fluff inconsistencies?
I'm talking about what sort of personal retcons you make to 40K. Say you dislike a certain piece of fluff, so you create your own conclusions to better suit your interpretation of the universe.
I.E: I prefer the idea of the Grey Knights being noble warriors who actively work alongside the Space Marines and Imperial Guard without mind wiping Astartes and exterminating IG Regiments once the battle is over.
For my own, private interpretation of the setting, I have adopted a mixed policy, where I go chiefly with stuff from GW only, but spice it up with cool ideas from other sources where I think they "fit in". I have also added a few ideas of my own, and I have even "retconned" GW fluff. An example:
In my 40k, Saint Praxedes is still MIA rather than being a confirmed casualty. Her disappearance sparking a legend about some SoB hero still alive and kicking ass inside Tyranid-infested territory, cut off from any and all allies but her own faith, is just too awesome to discard. And I'm still a bit miffed at the 5E Minidex authors for canning it in favour of a gakky "her corpse was recovered" line.
She is a Living Saint, the most powerful creature IOM has to offer sans a Primarch. And Draigo is still vandalizing the garden of Eden, I meant Nurgle.
In my mind, he still exists, and 1 of the 4 major gods (Tzeentch, if you have to know) has trapped his power, mind and form for all eternity, his followers ever seeking for revenge etc.
The C'tan not being turned upon by the necrons. I like to think the Eldat shattered the C'tan, and the shards are locked up by the Necrons for the safety of the C'tan.
I took it to be a rumor Lynata about Praxedes being turned into a Living Saint, ripping out the heart of a swarm of Nids from inside. As the Living Saints basically is the most powerful of the IOM this side of a Primarch.
As for the Primarches, they seem to wex and vane. At their height they are living freaking gods, when they vane an extraordinary human can best them.
For the Nid long range weaponry. Let them fall apart. Easy peasy. It's even backed by the Uplifting Primer.
And every Space Marine Chapter is unique with their own traditions and code of honor - not all of them ( except Wolves, Templars, Raven Guard ) want to be Ultramarines.
6'th edition alliance chart.
Every race winning card ( main Tyranid Fleet, united Orks, repopulated Eldar or Ynead ) because that's just propaganda. The only thing I see possible here is either Emperor's or Chaos Gods ultimate victory in the end when Emperor dies.
Every OTT moments that are even OTT for 40k ( like Mephiston tearing trough entire Tyranid Hive, all by himself after holding the gate against the same for several days, and killing Hive Tyrant and his guard - with his hands.
Malal was defeated/absorbed by the other Chaos gods to such a degree he is barely even mentioned but he exist
Newcrons are simply the more activated versions of Oldcrons. IE. Oldcrons fluff was what the Imperial xeno-experts thought the Necrons were at the time but as time goes on the learned more about them and understand what the Newcrons are now.
Than there is a bunch of other things that dont really get factored in.
The Golden Throne isnt failling
Most IG regiments are actually compitenant with military leaders like commissars who actually care about their men and avoid wasting them.
The Mechanicum does still do advancement and technological research, it is just very slow and careful.
Draigo is actually fighting a mind war with Tzeentch. Everythign he has ever done is actually Tzeentch fething with him in his mind trying to show everything he does is pointless but if he joined Chaos he COULD have a lasting impact in an attempt to turn him.
Grey Knights rarely kill those they know are innocent and do not mind wipe loyal subjects.
The Inquisition, though willing to kill the innocent, makes sure that all actions are calculated to be long term effective. They dont just declare world exterminatus because feth that guy. They actually do their job correctly in other words.
Tau are very agreesive in their attitudes towards others so even minor resistance can result in their military actions. Non-Tau members are considered second class, humans and other races that fight the Tau are even worse than that
Ill list others later
Beaviz81 wrote: What should then drive them, if not the Hive Mind?
Something less always present. I would like more room for the individual nids to do things. Like if they have there own intelligence and the ability to mutate themselves.
Eh, if you like that, I always kind of liked the hive mind idea. Even though it's everywhere I look at it as a staple of sci-fi, along with the super armor troops of eliteness and those crazy fethers who screw up the everything... wait those collectively sum up 40k, huh.
Most IG regiments are actually compitenant with military leaders like commissars who actually care about their men and avoid wasting them.
The Mechanicum does still do advancement and technological research, it is just very slow and careful. People don't get this part, Mechanicus is deliberately pushing for Machine Spirit dogma only to keep monopoly over Mankind technology. Imagine if every Human understood how their Machine works? Mechanicus would lost their monopoly and their current power. And in addition to researching new technologies they also modify xeno technology to use against them, the only reason why this is not shown becasue there are xxx area 51's i nthe Imperium and mechanicus kepps all the cool stuff for themselves.
Draigo is actually fighting a mind war with Tzeentch. Everything he has ever done is actually Tzeentch fething with him in his mind trying to show everything he does is pointless but if he joined Chaos he COULD have a lasting impact in an attempt to turn him. There is even better explanation for this: Draigo is under Emperor's protection. That explains why he has not fallen yet and why Chaos Gods cannot ouch him at all.
Grey Knights rarely kill those they know are innocent and do not mind wipe loyal subjects.
The Inquisition, though willing to kill the innocent, makes sure that all actions are calculated to be long term effective. They dont just declare world exterminatus because feth that guy. They actually do their job correctly in other words.
Tau are very agreesive in their attitudes towards others so even minor resistance can result in their military actions. Non-Tau members are considered second class, humans and other races that fight the Tau are even worse than that
Ill list others later
Actually this is how the things ARE in 40k, the only difference is that majority of people ( like 90% ) takes literally EVERYTHING that is told with the Imeprium.
nomotog wrote: I'd like to retcon nids wielding guns, but I have no idea how you would do it.
How do you retcon something that has always been con?
Tyranids have had guns since Rogue Trader in 1988, lol.
What you're talking about is just making them into the Zerg.
I actually agree with him. It just looks weird.
I like the way Hydras and Roachs and Multalisk look, they are the weapon effectivelly. I never liked the look that Tyranids have guns attached to their arms. It looks like a weird genetic experiment of a Zerg combined with an elphant gun
People don't get this part, Mechanicus is deliberately pushing for Machine Spirit dogma only to keep monopoly over Mankind technology. Imagine if every Human understood how their Machine works? Mechanicus would lost their monopoly and their current power. And in addition to researching new technologies they also modify xeno technology to use against them, the only reason why this is not shown becasue there are xxx area 51's i nthe Imperium and mechanicus kepps all the cool stuff for themselves.
Thats not the way ive read things but ya this is what I meant. Advancement DOES occur. Vehicles are declared obsolite and replaced with new better models, etc... Like the reason the 5 and 4th edition Leman Russes look different is because its an updated model with better armor, etc...
There is even better explanation for this: Draigo is under Emperor's protection. That explains why he has not fallen yet and why Chaos Gods cannot ouch him at all.
Thats worse for me. That means that Draigo defeated a Chaos Primarchs and his champions and was able to do all sorts of crazy stuff like destroy Nurgle's gardens. That makes him even more mary sue in my eye. But hey whatever. Everyone has their own opinions
"Praying to the Machine Spirit" is an exaggerated way of saying "Work you piece of please don't bypass the swear filter like this. reds8n " and banging on something with a hammer.
Yeah, it amuses me when some authors and fans take the whole "Machine Spirit" thing too literally, when it was obvious from early on that it meant "Really advanced computer we don't fully understand" so we pray to it like ancient peoples prayed to gods to prevent tsunamis.
Draigo is basically the good Abbaddon. But unfortunately he is so powerful that Mary Sue in Godmode, or lost Primarch (Berserk Button for so many people) is the only way to explain him.
Also Admech being stupid is a damn strange way to read it, I file it under the IOM being Stupid Evil rather than utterly pragmatic as it then sounds like a few major reforms would get the IOM to just curbstomp everything and they are now holding back.
As for the Nids toting guns, no real issue, but many of the early thingies looked strange. Remember the shoulder-mounted bolters of the Terminators with 1 meter tall shoulders?
nomotog wrote: I'd like to retcon nids wielding guns, but I have no idea how you would do it.
How do you retcon something that has always been con?
Tyranids have had guns since Rogue Trader in 1988, lol.
What you're talking about is just making them into the Zerg.
I actually agree with him. It just looks weird.
I like the way Hydras and Roachs and Multalisk look, they are the weapon effectivelly. I never liked the look that Tyranids have guns attached to their arms. It looks like a weird genetic experiment of a Zerg combined with an elphant gun
I will second this. I think the zerg have a much better look and feel to them. Nid guns look so bad i would rather have them actually carry guns then have what they have now. ..... Maybe I can model one with a pulse carbine.
In my world "red thirst (BA) " doesn't exist...
It's dumbest feat SM can have...
I' mean did BA had a "la chupacabra (eng:goat sucker)" gene spliced in ?
They got them from nightmares, and suddenly wake up demanding to tear flesh, just they unlike the really stupid Flesh Tearers can actually control it (never let them fight the Tyranids, though if I wrote their fluff that would be option B). I don't mind it so much Marko but I understand at least.
Beaviz81 wrote:I took it to be a rumor Lynata about Praxedes being turned into a Living Saint, ripping out the heart of a swarm of Nids from inside.
Ohhh - no, no. In her original fluff, it's just that people didn't actually see her die - the last thing that people on the evacuation shuttles saw was her slapping down a Hive Tyrant and pressing the attack. In other words: it's fairly obvious that she's dead, but her legend was hyped up by the survivors, much like I think the stories about the Emperor and the Primarchs were. I thought that was a fairly cool detail, the bit about how some believe she's still around.
"Saint Praxedes was a Canoness of the Order of Our Martyred Lady at the start of the Second Tyrannic War. With a force of Battle Sisters she reinforced the Caladenian Imperial Guard on the Cardinal World of Okassis. As the Tyranids assaulted the Cardinal's palace, she led her Sisters and a company of Guardsmen in a gallant counter-attack. Leading from the front of the fighting, she bested a Hive Tyrant and broke the Tyranid attack, buying the thousands of refugees fleeing from the conflict the time needed to evacuate the planet.
Not content with this success, the Canoness pressed deep into the heart of the Tyranid swarms, leading her small army in a guerilla war against the hordes of the hive mind. The disruption and havoc she wreaked seriously weakened the Tyranid attack on the spaceport, saving even more lives. As the last of the shuttles soared into orbit and safety, all contact was lost with her army. She was the first Martyr to the Kraken and her name is revered all across the Ultima Segmentum. Some claim that she lives yet, fighting on against the dreaded hordes of the Tyranids from within."
Beaviz81 wrote:For the Nid long range weaponry. Let them fall apart. Easy peasy. It's even backed by the Uplifting Primer.
She is called a Saint Lynata, that's where the misunderstanding stems from. I take the stance it might happen and it might not, but it would be awfully cool if it does. And sure stranger things have happened.
Yeah it was my insane reasoning for me to support that the Tyranids should be without firearms, little else.
This one is just my own visual take on the world, but I always envisioned Melta weapons as firing globs of superheated metal that explode on contact, rather than a jet of hot air. I want a magma spewing cannon, not a weaponized hairdryer!
Ahh, I see what you mean. Yeah, Saint =/= Living Saint, but I do see the mix-up come up regularly, so no worries.
Whether it might happen or not ... I suppose that depends on what we think a Living Saint actually is. So far I'm aware of four different theories:
a) Living Saints are just what it says on the tin - holy angels conjured by divine magic.
b) Living Saints are a psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will, empowering one of his subjects.
c) Living Saints are, in laymen's terms, "Daemons of Order": benign Warp spirits called into existence by the emotions of collective faith, possessing one of the most faithful at the moment of death, then assuming their identity.
d) Living Saints actually don't exist. What we get to play on the TT is "the legend" as seen by the people within the setting, just like the other characters.
But further discussion on this would be something for a separate topic, methinks, as much as I like to talk about it.
Lynata wrote: Also, I don't actually think the Primarchs were -that- good ... *ducks*
I SAW THAT RRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
How good do like to picture them, out of curiosity?
I tend to discard what I don't like about 5e Necrons (Tome of Fate fluff is my favoritest Necron fluff in that it adequately takes the good of both the old and new and meshes them), and I am working on my own concept for Draigo that I prefer to the current, for use as the future endgame of a Black Crusade campaign (I like to re-envision some of his prior to Warp exploits as tales of hard-fought heroism requiring a great deal of blood, sweat, and sacrifice to pull off, particularly the Mortarion battle. And I like to think that, when he was pulled into the Warp, to survive, he opened his mind and soul to the Emperor's light, so his body could act as a catalyst for the Emperor's own power in the fight against Chaos. But this action burned away all of his former being and his very mind, making him an unthinking, unfeeling drone, who just roams the Warp smashing down the Realms of Chaos, unable to be bargained or reasoned with, a M'kaechan discovered. He is an abomination in a realm of pure change, a fixed point whose very footsteps stagnate the universe around him, half the flow of Chaos, suffocating those that reside in the Warp by forcing order into their natural disorder. Basically, Chaos's own personal Cthulhu. Still a work in progress).
Spoiler:
Also, Ollanius Pius is NOT a fething Highlander, nor is he 40k's version of The Doctor.
Hm... I like to ignore the fact that Tyranids fleets fight and eat eachother (and I guess it hasn't been said in a bit, but hasn't been retconned). I like to think that they flow together seemlessly and don't fight, as they're under one command.
Oh, and the fact that Loken was bought back to life. It ruined him... same as the Death of Superman. And... the way I interpret it, Draigo, with a host of Paladins, fought through Mortarions guards, and in the battle managed to strike Mortarion, peircing one of his hearts. The Daemon Primarch then retreated, but is obviously not dead. No "Draigo held him still while he drew out a Fountain pen and carefully engraved his masters name, holding up an old check to make sure he got the signature right". One does not tackle a Daemon Primarch! Especially Mortarion... after Nurgles blessings, you've got to figure he's one of the larger Primarchs still left...
Void__Dragon wrote:How good do like to picture them, out of curiosity?
That's an interesting question ... I suppose I do well consider them "humanity's best", as far as warriors go. Their physique is without equal and they seem to come with considerable charisma and/or leadership skills, otherwise they would not have risen to the positions they were found in. Still, they are mortal beings, and can be felled by a skilled opponent just like anyone. No bolter-proof skin, no lightning-quick movement. After all, the Dark Angels' background seems to imply that young El'Jonson and young Luther (even before being astartified) were not that far apart, and Rogal Dorn died fighting what seems to have been "ordinary" CSM or even normal humans...
In short: Superior men, but not Supermen.
I dunno, but when reading threads/posts about the Primarchs, it just so often seems as if most people regard them as semi-invul demi-gods who can only be threatened by someone from their own ranks. Such an interpretation, however, would be too far removed from my own taste of realism. There are no invincible superheroes in "my" 40k, just like there is no divine magic or an actual (non-AI) Machine Spirit. Everything is science, superstition or a psychic power, and everyone can be injured by anybody, circumstances permitting.
The Leman Russ isn't armoured with just plain old steel.
FW will never live that one down.
Also, the riveted armour on Imperial vehicles is an ablative layer designed to protect against high-energy weapons, with the main hull being properly welded together. Space Marine vehicles largely lack this layer, hence lower armour values in TT.
Lynata wrote: That's an interesting question ... I suppose I do well consider them "humanity's best", as far as warriors go. Their physique is without equal and they seem to come with considerable charisma and/or leadership skills, otherwise they would not have risen to the positions they were found in. Still, they are mortal beings, and can be felled by a skilled opponent just like anyone. No bolter-proof skin, no lightning-quick movement. After all, the Dark Angels' background seems to imply that young El'Jonson and young Luther (even before being astartified) were not that far apart, and Rogal Dorn died fighting what seems to have been "ordinary" CSM or even normal humans...
I dunno, but when reading threads/posts about the Primarchs, it just so often seems as if most people regard them as semi-invul demi-gods who can only be threatened by someone from their own ranks. Such an interpretation, however, would be too far removed from my own taste of realism. There are no invincible superheroes in "my" 40k, just like there is no divine magic or an actual (non-AI) Machine Spirit. Everything is science, superstition or a psychic power, and everyone can be injured by anybody, circumstances permitting.
But similarly, in Index Astartes, Angron, as a baby, massacres a group of Eldar sent to kill him. Konrad Curze survives being sent to the planet's core, Leman Russ landed inside a volcano. Ferrus Manus fought what was probably a Necron construct barehanded and held it down in the mouth of a volcano until it died. Magnus was an enormous giant beyond even the Primarchs in stature, who, beside being an incredible psyker, could put his fist into Leman Russ's breastplate and punch holes through his heart. The circumstances of Dorn's death are unknown. Luther required a very generous doping on Chaos to be the Lion's equal in combat. The 6e codex explicitly likens their power towards that of the Emperor.
The nigh-invulnerable demigods interpretation does have a basis is all I am saying, and note that all I have said is GW fluff, not BL.
Ah, but I've fact-checked all of this in the Index Astartes and ..
- Angron was not "a baby" when he was attacked by what "Imperial scholars believe" to be Eldar. At least the IA does not mention it. What it does mention is that he was sent straight to the gladiator pits as a slave warrior, and I don't imagine people would throw a toddler in there. Not even one found surrounded by (possible) Eldar corpses. Furthermore, the article notes that "the legend of Angron is incomplete" and how "the true facts are impossible to discern from legend".
- Konrad Curze's embryonic formsupposedly "descended from the heavens in a crackling ball of light" which is then said to have smashed through almost half the planet. I'm kind of tempted to call BS on it right there, but even assuming that this is true and Nostramo was penetrated in this incredibly violent manner, I would interpret the crackling ball of light to have been some sort of high-tech preservation pod, or perhaps the Chaos Gods' dark magic. Whatever the case, I am fairly certain it was not just the embryo.
- With Ferrus Manus' story, I am willing to believe that the creature was indeed a Necron construct, even though the bit about "remnants of a forgotten age" could just as well hint at the Dark Age of Technology and some rogue AI. Either way, the bit about "fighting the creature for days on end" and "across continents and seas" is where my suspension of disbelief breaks again and I'll just label the story a product of folklore and distorted legend. I'm sure that as with all folklore there is some truth to it, but I'm saying that at least half of it is made up, twisted by countless retellings from one clan sage to another.
I mean, honestly, do you expect me to believe Ferrus Manus actually, truthfully carried an entire mountain on his back from one island to another, because he wanted to troll a "storm giant"?
- About Magnus versus Russ, I could not find any such details like those you mentioned in the article. However, I did notice how the accounts of their duel are unanimously labeled as "contradicting each other dramatically". Especially the Space Wolves version is, even within the setting, facing criticism regardings its versimilitude. Not surprising, given how it is said to be "oral tradition", and I'm sure we all know how Vikings liked to tell their tales.
- The exact circumstances of Dorn's death are indeed unknown, but dying during a simple boarding action still stands in stark contrast to most of the other Primarch's fates. What sort of resistance would you assume he could have faced?
- As for Luther, I was not referring to his duel with El'Jonson, and not even to when he was made a Space Marine. I was talking about the time before the Emperor arrived, when he and the Lion were just two warriors in a knightly Order.
Yes, the interpretation does have a basis, but it is not factual accounts. Rather legends, myths and folklore, as I've been saying. And I choose to regard them as such instead of taking everything for having happened in exactly that way. At least I assume that this is what GW intended, too.
If I would take everything at face value, then I'd also have to accept the existence of divine magic. Yet I do not believe that gods actually exist in 40k. It is all just in the Warp.
The Emperor is not dead and the failing golden throne will finally set him free.
The webway gates were fixed along time ago.
Old Gil is healing in the stasis field and Dorn and the wolf are not dead. (why should nearly all the loyal sons be dead and most the traitors still alive)
And last but not least as for mentioned, the mechanicum are still recovering lost tech.
I like to believe that higher up SM, like veteran rank upwards, have full knowledge of the GK, such as chapter masters being able to to call them for aid, but lower ranked SM will just be told that they're just not very codex adherent. Also higher up Imperial officers will be allowed to know about the GK too, not killed, not mind wiped, allowed to know. I also don't like the idea of Inquisitors commandeering an entire SM chapter, I like to think that he asks the chapter master very nicely if he'll help him out, asking super nice to the older chapters, and pretty much begging any first founding. Now, as an Ultramarine player, I like to believe that the Codex Astartes is a book of tactics to be interpreted, not followed to the letter. I like how Captain Titus says it, not how it's shown by some people. Examples for this being Tyrannic War Veterans. I also have this theory that the Hive Mind is kind of like a Chaos God from another galaxy, the Warp is different depending on the area of real space that you're in, and the Hive Mind is a Warp conciousness from another galaxy coming our way. Tyranids can also still use the Warp. And even though most people have forgotten it, I still believe that Tau Ethereals were genetically engineered by the Eldar for some reason.
No Buca, just no. The grunts just ain't told everything. That's the strength and weakness of the IOM. But to a degree I agree with you. At least to the first point. I'm damn tired of the Grey Knights being even more frakking secretive than the Dark Angels, and they have a network of informers for the Fallen, so knowledge of them ain't an automatic death sentence. But a Chapter Master and the higher ups especially amongst the Librarians shall have knowledge as I sort of think for logical reasons the Librarians are sent to Titan for the final testing and such.
I loved your second point. The Codex Astartes shall not be perfect, but a great guideline. That's how I see it, people are free to disagree with me, but I also like the viewpoint that more conservative Space Marines doesn't like deviation from it.
The Hive Mind is just unending hunger, nothing more, nothing less.
The Tau engineered by Eldar? Sure you ain't meaning the Old Ones? The Orks are engineered by them, the humans, mind-raped and such.
Beaviz81 wrote: The grunts just ain't told everything. That's the strength and weakness of the IOM.
I still wouldn't have IG units exterminated for contact with the GK. Don't tell them of their true intent, but rather lie to them that they are being aided by a regular SM chapter.
As an Imperial Guard player, I like the idea that Guardsmen tend to be killed off after encountering demons / grey knights. It does help the grim darkness and helps illustrate just exactly the price of a guardsmans life.
However, I'd also like to think they're relatively sensible about it all. For example, only doing it after the war is over and other more pragmatic alternatives tend to be considered. - For example, being seconded by the Inquisition for certain missions where cannon fodder is required. Might as well not waste a new resource on it when you've got a perfectly good one that hasn't gone insane quite yet and may prove still useful. However, you wouldn't want them going off to a normal warzone, against say, orks, and have them interacting with other regiments.... That would be unwise.
I'm writing a narrative battle report right now which really plays this up. The Guard are clueless about demons, however my Guard know of:
the executioners... Though their names were unknown, their deeds of terror were known throughout the lowest ranks of the guard. They were the Bringers of The Warp, silencers of the Convent, and some of the most unreliable soldiers even claim these silver clad destroyers were responsible for the genocide of Armageddon...
I made up something I called the Schism of Amarath to explain away the changes between the old Grey Knights and the Ward book while allowing me to reject Ward's fluff and keep my Grey Knight army. Long story short: The High Lords of Terra decide to appoint a 'supreme grand master' to give themselves some additional authority and oversight over the Grey Knights; some of the Grey Knights are fine with it, others less so. Certain anti-central-authority factions within the Inquisition persuade the reluctant faction to declare themselves the new 'true' heirs to the traditions of the Grey Knights and walk out on the Order on Titan; both the High Lords and these Inquisitors know it's not in either one's best interest to turn this into a full-blown civil war, so both Grey Knight factions operate in different areas of the galaxy now, though when they come across each other bullets are exchanged.
Beaviz81 wrote: The grunts just ain't told everything. That's the strength and weakness of the IOM.
I still wouldn't have IG units exterminated for contact with the GK. Don't tell them of their true intent, but rather lie to them that they are being aided by a regular SM chapter.
Regular SM chapter? My impression is that only officers are granted enough info to distinguish between Space Marine chapters. But I sort of agree I'm damn tired of the Stupid Evil some try to cast the IOM as. I can see that lie being told.
Makari the banna wava was killed by a lucky shot from a dirty humie, as it's written in the fanfic on 1d4. Ghazghkull really did care for him, and that along with the stupid story about him being sat on is part of the reason he crushes human settlements with such vehemence.
Malal is still a chaos god, but because of his constant antagonizing towards the other four gods, they ganged up on him and had him banished from the warp. Of course, being a tricky little bastard, he still hides out on the edges of the warp, quietly interfering with the material plane and harrassing the other four gods when they aren't looking. Whenever Tzeentch makes a plan, Malal counters it. When Nurgle makes a poison, Malal makes a cure. When Khorne demands blood, Malal causes some of his followers to get lost and unable to kill anything. Whenever Slaanesh is in one of those moods... Well, it's not pretty, mind you.
The Codex Astartes is a guideline, not a rulebook. If Guilliman ever came back and found everyone being such rule lawyers, he'd get mad at them.
The Inquisition can be reasonable at times, and won't blow up a planet for no reason.
The Necrontyr were a frail and pathetic race and did get tricked and eaten by the C'tan like they used to, however to bridge the gap between Old and Newcrons, they later revolted against the C'tan and formed their own empire, as described in the Newcron book.
The Tau are much less kind than they appear to be. They'll ask you once, then bring down hell and kill anyone and everything that stands against them.
Alpharius is still alive. Wait, no, that one actually is true.
it takes place a bit into the 42M after Calgar has died and Sicarus and the other guy duked it out for who will be the next Chapter Master. Titus is the new captain of 2nd Company
it takes place a bit into the 42M after Calgar has died and Sicarus and the other guy duked it out for who will be the next Chapter Master. Titus is the new captain of 2nd Company
I go by this, except I place the Ultramarines movie between Sicarus and Titus. Severus is killed and Titus is his successor.
I go by this, except I place the Ultramarines movie between Sicarus and Titus. Severus is killed and Titus is his successor.
Well that is not possible because the film "Ultramarines" is probably set before Cato became Captain.
And "Space Marine" video game really went into 42'nd millennium. Because Blood Ravens there were using captain Angelos's new chapter battle cry "None shall find us wanting" ( also this is main indication that the Space Marine ending in "retribution" was the canonical one. Also, because settings in DoW Dark Crusade takes place in 999.M40, that means that Retribution is taking place some ten to twelve years in M42'nd ). Cato could simply be promoted and Titus put as commander.
I go by this, except I place the Ultramarines movie between Sicarus and Titus. Severus is killed and Titus is his successor.
Well that is not possible because the film "Ultramarines" is probably set before Cato became Captain.
And "Space Marine" video game really went into 42'nd millennium. Because Blood Ravens there were using captain Angelos's new chapter battle cry "None shall find us wanting" ( also this is main indication that the Space Marine ending in "retribution" was the canonical one. Also, because settings in DoW Dark Crusade takes place in 999.M40, that means that Retribution is taking place some ten to twelve years in M42'nd ). Cato could simply be promoted and Titus put as commander.
What about the mosaic in Ultramarines? It depicts the Tyrannic War on Macragge, which took place after Sicarius was promoted to Captain. If Severus was the 2nd Company Captain before such time, how would the mosaic be there?
Or, is Severus Titus's successor after Titus was picked up by the Inquisition?
Cato Sicarus became Captain in 849.M41, Battle for Macragge was on 746.M41. He became Captain 150 years AFTER Battle for Macragge. And Titus is clearly Cato's successor.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: Cato Sicarus became Captain in 849.M41, Battle for Macragge was on 746.M41. He became Captain 150 years AFTER Battle for Macragge.
And Titus is clearly Cato's successor.
Okay, so then Severus would have to come AFTER Titus. Since Cato's predecessor was Severus Agemman, current 1st Company Cap. Ultramarines film Severus was a 2nd Company Captain sometime after Macragge before Agemman, or after Titus.
Lynata wrote: - Angron was not "a baby" when he was attacked by what "Imperial scholars believe" to be Eldar. At least the IA does not mention it. What it does mention is that he was sent straight to the gladiator pits as a slave warrior, and I don't imagine people would throw a toddler in there. Not even one found surrounded by (possible) Eldar corpses. Furthermore, the article notes that "the legend of Angron is incomplete" and how "the true facts are impossible to discern from legend".
I suppose the "baby" bit is just one of those things you hear about so often that it just becomes true in your mind.
- Konrad Curze's embryonic formsupposedly "descended from the heavens in a crackling ball of light" which is then said to have smashed through almost half the planet. I'm kind of tempted to call BS on it right there, but even assuming that this is true and Nostramo was penetrated in this incredibly violent manner, I would interpret the crackling ball of light to have been some sort of high-tech preservation pod, or perhaps the Chaos Gods' dark magic. Whatever the case, I am fairly certain it was not just the embryo.
He'd still have to crawl out.
- With Ferrus Manus' story, I am willing to believe that the creature was indeed a Necron construct, even though the bit about "remnants of a forgotten age" could just as well hint at the Dark Age of Technology and some rogue AI. Either way, the bit about "fighting the creature for days on end" and "across continents and seas" is where my suspension of disbelief breaks again and I'll just label the story a product of folklore and distorted legend. I'm sure that as with all folklore there is some truth to it, but I'm saying that at least half of it is made up, twisted by countless retellings from one clan sage to another.
I mean, honestly, do you expect me to believe Ferrus Manus actually, truthfully carried an entire mountain on his back from one island to another, because he wanted to troll a "storm giant"?
So do you think he was just born with iron hands then? You find that less absurd than a legendary superbeing holding a robot below magma?
- About Magnus versus Russ, I could not find any such details like those you mentioned in the article. However, I did notice how the accounts of their duel are unanimously labeled as "contradicting each other dramatically". Especially the Space Wolves version is, even within the setting, facing criticism regardings its versimilitude. Not surprising, given how it is said to be "oral tradition", and I'm sure we all know how Vikings liked to tell their tales.
It is in the Space Wolves section of Index Astartes II. I'll also go ahead and note that the breastplate smashing bit was also present in the "actual" account in A Thousand Sons (The novel), by Graham McNeill (Who, if you recall, actually has worked on GW codices and Index Astartes articles), though you might not particularly care.
- The exact circumstances of Dorn's death are indeed unknown, but dying during a simple boarding action still stands in stark contrast to most of the other Primarch's fates. What sort of resistance would you assume he could have faced?
It was a Black Crusade.
Legionairres armed with absurdly powerful Daemon Weapons, potent Thousand Sons sorcerers, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, any manner of big nasties that could harm a Primarch significantly.
- As for Luther, I was not referring to his duel with El'Jonson, and not even to when he was made a Space Marine. I was talking about the time before the Emperor arrived, when he and the Lion were just two warriors in a knightly Order.
Wait, you're referring to the line that they complemented eachother's abilities well? That doesn't imply that they were even near equals in martial or physical skill, and it completely ignores the fact that Luther, as a Space Marine, needed to dope on the power flooded into him by all four Chaos Gods to be his equal, lol.
Yes, the interpretation does have a basis, but it is not factual accounts. Rather legends, myths and folklore, as I've been saying. And I choose to regard them as such instead of taking everything for having happened in exactly that way. At least I assume that this is what GW intended, too.
To an extent? Sure.
But I think GW certainly intended the Primarchs to be very much superhuman, to an extent beyond even the Astartes. You don't see many Astartes killing the most powerful Bloodthirster of all in single combat.
If I would take everything at face value, then I'd also have to accept the existence of divine magic. Yet I do not believe that gods actually exist in 40k. It is all just in the Warp.
The difference between divine magic and the power of the Warp from a mortal perspective is nonexistent, IMHO. It is power that can't be explained by science and only slightly controlled or measured through various Warp sciences (In terms of Chaos specifically, it basically just can't), it violates the laws of physics and reshapes worlds when it enters realspace, and it is gifted by immense and massively powerful beings in a higher plane. That the gods live in the Warp hardly discounts them from being gods.
Galdos wrote: Newcrons are simply the more activated versions of Oldcrons. IE. Oldcrons fluff was what the Imperial xeno-experts thought the Necrons were at the time but as time goes on the learned more about them and understand what the Newcrons are now.
This has been my assessments. They are one of the few areas where I believe GW has advanced the plot. More data has been gathered, events that formerly went unexplained (or blamed on chaos/eldar/tau/swamp gas), and reports have been uncovered that suddenly give more context and understanding of who and what the Necrons are. Before, they were just some dark, race of nameless robots. Now, now they are an empire that is an actual threat to the safety of mankind.
I also don't believe in the idea of a machine spirit. I believe it's AI, and let me explain:
So during Old Night, and the war with the iron men, it's assumed through the fluff that it was essentially the men of iron were artificial intelligences. Obviously tired of being subordinates, they rebelled and were barely beat back by mankind. Now, because these AIs had been largely responsible for basically EVERYTHING of meaning for the last 12,000 years, humans were kind of caught on the wrong side of town with no idea how to get home, ya get? So these defeated AIs weren't actually dead, they were just largely without offensive capability. Instead of sticking around to wait and see what the humans did, they did the next best thing...they hid. How does a computer program hide? It goes somewhere you won't look for it. Regular machines. Battle tanks. Lasguns. Lifts. Communicators. Industrial computer networks. Whatever. So now these AIs have spread themselves out all over the place. Every piece of technology with the ability to store memory (so by this point, EVERYTHING) is a hiding place for these AIs. The human finally get a grip on reality again and start reforging a life. However, since they are basically blindly crawling along, they are pretty much blind to the fact that every piece of technology around is actually a sentient AI. Like all sentient creatures, these AIs do have personalities and emotions. The AI inhabiting the fridge in your kitchen may be relatively friendly and calm. It keeps your food cool in exchange for you keeping it clean and well cared for. However, the AI inhabiting the AC unit you have is a real jerkwad. It doesn't like be told what to do, so it frequently just doesn't. You have to coax it with pleading and begging to even turn on correctly. Sometimes it aquiesces, sometimes it doesn't. Now, because you live in the 31st millenium and know that all AIs are gone, you have no real explanation for this behavior. That is, until some quasi-religious order of mechanics tells you it's a spirit. Suddenly, you aren't begging your AC unit to work, you are begging the machine spirit that inhabits your AC unit. Now, the AI inside it really doesn't give a gak most of the time. But the constant prayer and vigil at least stroke it's ego enough that it listens and behaves....for a little bit.
Now, as time marches on and mankind gets to building new stuff, those AIs...which are in EVERYTHING....find new places to inhabit. Titans, because they offer some incredible capability, are probably the source of much infighting. Several powerful AIs may actually fight over the memory in that thing. By the time in Princeps gets seated and hooks up to it, his only job is to keep the jacked up AI from destroying itself in rage. Meanwhile, the Adeptus Mechanicus is terrified to even try messing with anything because every time they do, something terrible happens.
The Imperial Fists, as the First Legion, The Emperors bodyguards do not adhere to the codex astartes, girlyman can, but what did he do during the heresy? While The Imperial fists don't advertise the fact that there ship bound forces far far exceed the 1000 marines joke, neither will they deny it, and scattered as they are no-one even knows that there are around 20,000 of them.
Its the same deal as the black templars, because the imperial fists believe that while the codex astartes is a good thing for fast reaction forces and so forth, its not enough for a force that has to defend Terra at all costs. they spilt their blood to hold back Horus' forces, they were the ones who held the imperial palace against the tide of chaos, and if the ultra marines and the corrupt venal lords of terra don't like it? well, they can take a short drop followed by a sudden stop. The Imperial Fists will be only so happy to oblige.
Galdos wrote: Malal was defeated/absorbed by the other Chaos gods to such a degree he is barely even mentioned but he exist
Newcrons are simply the more activated versions of Oldcrons. IE. Oldcrons fluff was what the Imperial xeno-experts thought the Necrons were at the time but as time goes on the learned more about them and understand what the Newcrons are now.
Than there is a bunch of other things that dont really get factored in.
The Golden Throne isnt failling
Most IG regiments are actually compitenant with military leaders like commissars who actually care about their men and avoid wasting them.
The Mechanicum does still do advancement and technological research, it is just very slow and careful.
Draigo is actually fighting a mind war with Tzeentch. Everythign he has ever done is actually Tzeentch fething with him in his mind trying to show everything he does is pointless but if he joined Chaos he COULD have a lasting impact in an attempt to turn him.
Grey Knights rarely kill those they know are innocent and do not mind wipe loyal subjects.
The Inquisition, though willing to kill the innocent, makes sure that all actions are calculated to be long term effective. They dont just declare world exterminatus because feth that guy. They actually do their job correctly in other words.
Tau are very agreesive in their attitudes towards others so even minor resistance can result in their military actions. Non-Tau members are considered second class, humans and other races that fight the Tau are even worse than that
Ill list others later
with the exeption of the Tau part, I agree with this especially the Imperial Guard commanders being competent
GW needs to realize that grimdark=/= stupidity and poor story writing
Forge World pretty much does it right, if anything, Citadel should absorb forge world and have all codexes be Imperial Armour instead
madtankbloke wrote: The Imperial Fists, as the First Legion, The Emperors bodyguards do not adhere to the codex astartes, girlyman can, but what did he do during the heresy? While The Imperial fists don't advertise the fact that there ship bound forces far far exceed the 1000 marines joke, neither will they deny it, and scattered as they are no-one even knows that there are around 20,000 of them.
Its the same deal as the black templars, because the imperial fists believe that while the codex astartes is a good thing for fast reaction forces and so forth, its not enough for a force that has to defend Terra at all costs. they spilt their blood to hold back Horus' forces, they were the ones who held the imperial palace against the tide of chaos, and if the ultra marines and the corrupt venal lords of terra don't like it? well, they can take a short drop followed by a sudden stop. The Imperial Fists will be only so happy to oblige.
I actually find the idea of this hillarious and awsome. They tell the UMs "fine we will do it your way" and simply do the same tthing the Black Templars do but sense organizations such as the Inquisiton like the IF (for their service to the Emperor like defending Terra) they just claim that the IF are "welll within limits"
Deathwatch comes to mind, I wouldn't be one bit surprised that that's where both the Ultras and the IF are hiding several thousand Space Marines there since they have too many planets to be just 1000.
I like to interpret the over the top stuff that Draigo does as just a figment of his own mind being warped by Tzeentch. Tzeentch is manipulating his mind and making him hallucinate that he is this godlike being so that one day he can snap Draigo out of it and show him that he has been nothing more than a pawn of Chaos for untold number of years. The knowledge that none of the great deeds he did in the name of the Emperor were real would drive him to insanity and self-destructive loathing.
Dammit, I'm sorry VD, totally forgot I wanted to reply to you yesterday... here goes, with delay!
Void__Dragon wrote:So do you think he was just born with iron hands then? You find that less absurd than a legendary superbeing holding a robot below magma?
[...]
It is in the Space Wolves section of Index Astartes II. I'll also go ahead and note that the breastplate smashing bit was also present in the "actual" account in A Thousand Sons (The novel), by Graham McNeill (Who, if you recall, actually has worked on GW codices and Index Astartes articles), though you might not particularly care.
[...]
It was a Black Crusade.
Legionairres armed with absurdly powerful Daemon Weapons, potent Thousand Sons sorcerers, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, any manner of big nasties that could harm a Primarch significantly.
[...]
Wait, you're referring to the line that they complemented eachother's abilities well? That doesn't imply that they were even near equals in martial or physical skill, and it completely ignores the fact that Luther, as a Space Marine, needed to dope on the power flooded into him by all four Chaos Gods to be his equal, lol.
1: No, I don't think he was just born with iron hands. I actually believe he got them there. Just not by plunging his hands into molten lava and metal. Perhaps the "iron hands" were just a sort of powered gauntlets he recovered from the remains?
Again: you have to see through the mysticism and keep in mind that the story you hear has been recorded by people who had the technological knowledge of humans in the ancient world. They've never seen something like power armour, lasers or computers. If you have no problem to assume that the "Great Silver Wyrm" was a machine rather than an actual animal of silver, then you have already acknowledged that the story is not a factual account - so why do you take everything else so literal?
2: Ah, thanks, I was looking at the wrong article then. Still, even that one notes how it is an oral tradition of the Space Wolves. Who, as the other article already mentioned, have a reputation of talking a lot of bs as far as their stories go.
Regarding Graham McNeill, I indeed do not care much about this, for individual authors are not necessarily a representation of studio consensus. Take a look at Gav Thorpe's novels, for example. I've only read one myself, but I do not agree with his representation of the Salamanders Chapter, who in that story (which was otherwise a pretty awesome and enjoyable read though) treated the Imperial Guard like gak, almost hitting an officer for daring to suggest his troops relieve them. Whilst this behaviour would have been fitting for many, if not most Astartes Chapters, I have always thought the Salamanders to be somewhat more sociable to normal humans.
3: Even though it was a Black Crusade, I do not really think that every random CSM on every random starship was juiced up with daemon weapons. If Russ had been killed by a Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince, I am sure the material would have mentioned it, for it would have been an (even) more heroic death.
4. Again, I have never talked about the time they were supposedly equals, but about the extent of the gap between them before the Emperor's arrival. Both being warriors in a knightly order, "complementing each other well" would, or so I assume, refer to their martial prowess rather than Luther being a good cook and singer or something.
Void__Dragon wrote:The difference between divine magic and the power of the Warp from a mortal perspective is nonexistent, IMHO. It is power that can't be explained by science and only slightly controlled or measured through various Warp sciences (In terms of Chaos specifically, it basically just can't), it violates the laws of physics and reshapes worlds when it enters realspace, and it is gifted by immense and massively powerful beings in a higher plane. That the gods live in the Warp hardly discounts them from being gods.
Yeah, but when GW specifically noted the Sisters of Battle to never be able to get any psychic powers, and even having an innate mental shield neutralising them ... what am I to believe when I hear about them doing miracles? If it can't be psychic powers, it has to be something else. So either actual divine magic exists in 40k, or it really was just exaggeration and hyperbole. I go with the latter, especially as some GW sources specifically relativate the divinity of their abilities with lines such as "regarded miraculous by the unschooled". In short: Imperials are dumb and superstitious, so they like to label anything cool they see an act of the Emperor's will and go to great lengths to make a neat story of it.
My spacemarines are not authorized to wear capes or robes or have ridiculous adornments to their battle gear as it would hinder them in combat. All the capes and decorations are saved for parades and special ceremonies. I like to use the DA codex but I hate that the Primarch name is Lionel Johnson. So my chapter uses DA rules but has Rogal Dorn as a primarch (i know much better name). I also like to think that there are sectors of the emprium where life doesn't totally suck for the common folks.
I don't know if anyone else has posted this option yet, but i tend to go with the premise that a splinter sect of degeneratively insane khorne worshippers impressed by a fallen inquisitor into mascarading as grey knights are responsible for most of the actions attributed to them in their more recent codex...
I always interpreted that as them saying "We can't keep track of our background material well enough to have an established canon, so feth it, there isn't any." Fair enough, though.
Neorealist wrote: I don't know if anyone else has posted this option yet, but i tend to go with the premise that a splinter sect of degeneratively insane khorne worshippers impressed by a fallen inquisitor into mascarading as grey knights are responsible for most of the actions attributed to them in their more recent codex...
- A major craftworld being brought to its knees by a single random SM chapter
- The Hivemind being an independent entity rather than a gestalt conciseness
- Newcrons
- Draigo (I supposed Ward fluff in general)
- Fulgrim having exorcised his Slaaneshi possession
I don't know if anyone else has posted this option yet, but i tend to go with the premise that a splinter sect of degeneratively insane khorne worshippers impressed by a fallen inquisitor into mascarading as grey knights are responsible for most of the actions attributed to them in their more recent codex...
Personally?
Well Dark Angels fluff made me think about some stuff
Wanderers in pacticular
-Terminators are rarer still
-Leaders are still in terminator armor
-Lots of Mortis Dreadnoughts ( changed from small amount of dreads to alot of dakka dreads)
-Lots of nephilim fighters (instead of storm ravens)
-Storm Eagles in mass production instead of thunderhawks
-Sniper Rifles added because of no scout squads (And also because scouts suck)
-Land speeders and bikes more commonly used
-Changed characters personalities
-Changed them to be left out of the inner circle making them part of the Forgiven parts of the successors.
-Angel Ranks stayed
-Noticely Grimdarkier
-Seekers have an elite unit... within an elite unit (lulz wut?)
-Noticeably smaller chapter
-More organized
-Raven Guard but with dark angel routes.
-Assualt Marines = past (Got rid of assualt marines and replaced them with sniper squads)
-More use of devastator squads
-Noticeably less skulls and more camouflage
-less slicy dicey more shooty shooty.
-Pyschic Blank geneseed noticeably RARER, unlike 1 in every 10 astartes.
-Star Fortress Is moveable and very much like the rock
- dark terrible secret, secrets that they have about terrible fates. One that would damn them and their successors
-Have fallen of their own they must hunt.
-Insanity common in psychic blanks
-Notable Traitors from The Wanderers that are known across the Imperium, Nisroc the Raven of Despair,
So alot of changes to my lore due to the new codex
Tyranids don't have special characters. I seriously don't know why they all say "this particular nid has never been seen since" and yet every nid army has a Doom of Malan'tai accompanying it. That's not even getting started on how silly it is that a single Zoanthrope took down a Craftworld.
Galdos wrote: Newcrons are simply the more activated versions of Oldcrons. IE. Oldcrons fluff was what the Imperial xeno-experts thought the Necrons were at the time but as time goes on the learned more about them and understand what the Newcrons are now.
Than there is a bunch of other things that dont really get factored in.
The Golden Throne isnt failling
Most IG regiments are actually compitenant with military leaders like commissars who actually care about their men and avoid wasting them.
The Mechanicum does still do advancement and technological research, it is just very slow and careful.
Draigo is actually fighting a mind war with Tzeentch. Everythign he has ever done is actually Tzeentch fething with him in his mind trying to show everything he does is pointless but if he joined Chaos he COULD have a lasting impact in an attempt to turn him.
Grey Knights rarely kill those they know are innocent and do not mind wipe loyal subjects.
The Inquisition, though willing to kill the innocent, makes sure that all actions are calculated to be long term effective. They dont just declare world exterminatus because feth that guy. They actually do their job correctly in other words.
Tau are very agreesive in their attitudes towards others so even minor resistance can result in their military actions. Non-Tau members are considered second class, humans and other races that fight the Tau are even worse than that
Ill list others later
Get. Out. Of. My. Mind!!!!!!!!!!
You're a telepath, aren't you? 'Cause this is pretty much how I see it.
In my 40k universe Space Wolves are limp wristed, lisping Carrot Tops who run away flailing and screaming if there's a spider in the room. They also cry for no apparent reason and only drink Bud Light because regular Bud is "Thimply too thtrong for uth thpathe wolvth!"
ChaoticBob wrote: In my 40k universe Space Wolves are limp wristed, lisping Carrot Tops who run away flailing and screaming if there's a spider in the room. They also cry for no apparent reason and only drink Bud Light because regular Bud is "Thimply too thtrong for uth thpathe wolvth!"
.
No, that is probably you IRL...
On topic :
Some HH books...I'mean great thing about books is that if you don't like one - erase it from your mind...If you can:-)
ChaoticBob wrote: In my 40k universe Space Wolves are limp wristed, lisping Carrot Tops who run away flailing and screaming if there's a spider in the room. They also cry for no apparent reason and only drink Bud Light because regular Bud is "Thimply too thtrong for uth thpathe wolvth!"
Because I simply do not like them.
Awesome! I will stick to this every time I hear someone say that Leman Russ was the smartest of the primarchs.
ChaoticBob wrote: In my 40k universe Space Wolves are limp wristed, lisping Carrot Tops who run away flailing and screaming if there's a spider in the room. They also cry for no apparent reason and only drink Bud Light because regular Bud is "Thimply too thtrong for uth thpathe wolvth!"
Because I simply do not like them.
I lol'd.
You get the Magnus the Red Seal of Approval for outstanding achievements in furbashing.
Not so much a retcon as an idea, but there have been 3 Ork Prophets of the Waaagh! as foretold by Weirdboyz. The first was Gharkul Blackfang, the second The Beast, the third Ghazghkull.
ChaoticBob wrote: In my 40k universe Space Wolves are limp wristed, lisping Carrot Tops who run away flailing and screaming if there's a spider in the room. They also cry for no apparent reason and only drink Bud Light because regular Bud is "Thimply too thtrong for uth thpathe wolvth!"
Because I simply do not like them.
I lol'd.
You get the Magnus the Red Seal of Approval for outstanding achievements in furbashing.
As soon as I make one.
No doubt you LOL-ed it...or any hateful comment towards SW, but that's you...
Hahaha, I understand the hatred of Girlyman, but this is toppling it even for me. I'm all for him going realpolitik on people after the HH and such, and sure he should have his amount of blame after he left the High Lords with the IOM in shambles in a badly written George Washington-style, but this much bile even I resents.
DarthMarko wrote: No doubt you LOL-ed it...or any hateful comment towards SW, but that's you...
I often forget how emotional people get involving their favorite faction, something I have admittedly been guilty of (I am sure someone could dig up my rage concerning the newcron codex).
Lighten up a little, learn to take some ribbing on your favorite faction.
DarthMarko wrote: No doubt you LOL-ed it...or any hateful comment towards SW, but that's you...
I often forget how emotional people get involving their favorite faction, something I have admittedly been guilty of (I am sure someone could dig up my rage concerning the newcron codex).
Lighten up a little, learn to take some ribbing on your favorite faction.
I'd rather dig up your rage about the Ultramarines and my worry about them seeming like a bunch of racists. Much funnier.
The "Newcrons". There's pros and cons about them but overall I just like the old ones better. I prefer them being death incarnate and I miss the C'tan too.
Yeah, I prefered it when necrons were just mindless machines of death, somewhat tragic shadows of their former selves enslaved to the will of unknowable Star-Gods.
Not metal Tomb Kings (From Spess!) with the broken C'tan as Pokemon-type things.
ChaoticBob wrote: In my 40k universe Space Wolves are limp wristed, lisping Carrot Tops who run away flailing and screaming if there's a spider in the room. They also cry for no apparent reason and only drink Bud Light because regular Bud is "Thimply too thtrong for uth thpathe wolvth!"
.
No, that is probably you IRL...
Only the thing about the spiders...
I'm probably throwing stones in a glass house, though. With the new C:CSM and all. Still, the scars from 5th ed remain.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Whoever says that Russ was the smartest Primarch is fooling themselves. He's a weapon, Dorn's the Tactician.
And Guilliman the stratigist, and Alpharius Omegon the... other smart guys.
Rogal Dorn is Rommel, Guilliman is Patton.
It makes a lot more sense than you might think. The Imperial Fists logo is a black fist on a white background, and their heraldry often employs the Aquila in the same manner. Just like Prussia and later Germany used the black eagle on a white background. Hence the fists can be construed as space German to a point.
The Ultramarine's usage of blue and white makes them easily connected to Americans, but it goes further here to. The Ultramarines and the Fists had their rivalry when Guilliman released the Codex. Patton and Rommel had their own rivalry during the Africa campaign. Only this time it is Guilliman being the magnificent bastard and writing the book rather than Dorn/Rommel. Patton was also criticized by many for his methods of command, much like how the Codex is not without its detractors.
So we have Rogal Dorn/Erwin Rommel. One of the best tacticians of his time (Though possibly lacking in long term strategy, see Dorn's opinion on the Codex in long term goals), with heraldry and traditions based in Germany.
Then we have Roboute Guilliman/George S. Patton. Excellent strategist to some, widely criticized at the same time, with heraldry rooted in the United States.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Whoever says that Russ was the smartest Primarch is fooling themselves. He's a weapon, Dorn's the Tactician.
And Guilliman the stratigist, and Alpharius Omegon the... other smart guys.
Rogal Dorn is Rommel, Guilliman is Patton.
It makes a lot more sense than you might think. The Imperial Fists logo is a black fist on a white background, and their heraldry often employs the Aquila in the same manner. Just like Prussia and later Germany used the black eagle on a white background. Hence the fists can be construed as space German to a point.
The Ultramarine's usage of blue and white makes them easily connected to Americans, but it goes further here to. The Ultramarines and the Fists had their rivalry when Guilliman released the Codex. Patton and Rommel had their own rivalry during the Africa campaign. Only this time it is Guilliman being the magnificent bastard and writing the book rather than Dorn/Rommel. Patton was also criticized by many for his methods of command, much like how the Codex is not without its detractors.
So we have Rogal Dorn/Erwin Rommel. One of the best tacticians of his time (Though possibly lacking in long term strategy, see Dorn's opinion on the Codex in long term goals), with heraldry and traditions based in Germany.
Then we have Roboute Guilliman/George S. Patton. Excellent strategist to some, widely criticized at the same time, with heraldry rooted in the United States.
So what is then Perturabo who rules them in every aspect ?
Arcsquad12 wrote: Whoever says that Russ was the smartest Primarch is fooling themselves. He's a weapon, Dorn's the Tactician.
And Guilliman the stratigist, and Alpharius Omegon the... other smart guys.
Rogal Dorn is Rommel, Guilliman is Patton.
It makes a lot more sense than you might think. The Imperial Fists logo is a black fist on a white background, and their heraldry often employs the Aquila in the same manner. Just like Prussia and later Germany used the black eagle on a white background. Hence the fists can be construed as space German to a point.
The Ultramarine's usage of blue and white makes them easily connected to Americans, but it goes further here to. The Ultramarines and the Fists had their rivalry when Guilliman released the Codex. Patton and Rommel had their own rivalry during the Africa campaign. Only this time it is Guilliman being the magnificent bastard and writing the book rather than Dorn/Rommel. Patton was also criticized by many for his methods of command, much like how the Codex is not without its detractors.
So we have Rogal Dorn/Erwin Rommel. One of the best tacticians of his time (Though possibly lacking in long term strategy, see Dorn's opinion on the Codex in long term goals), with heraldry and traditions based in Germany.
Then we have Roboute Guilliman/George S. Patton. Excellent strategist to some, widely criticized at the same time, with heraldry rooted in the United States.
So what is then Perturabo who rules them in every aspect ?
Perturabo is a genetically engineered supersoldier known as a Primarch who excels at siege warfare and uses logic over faith to control battlefields like a machine rather than a zealot. So he's a Vulcan mixed with Skynet.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Then we have Roboute Guilliman/George S. Patton. Excellent strategist to some, widely criticized at the same time, with heraldry rooted in the United States.
Ultramarine heraldry is rooted in Ancient Rome, not the US.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Then we have Roboute Guilliman/George S. Patton. Excellent strategist to some, widely criticized at the same time, with heraldry rooted in the United States.
Ultramarine heraldry is rooted in Ancient Rome, not the US.
Yeah, I don't really understand that one either! The United States?!
What, because of the eagle? I think our American cousins were late to the party with the eagles all over the place. Most obviously being the Germans (among many others)
Its clearly Graeco-Roman right? And it always has been as far as I'm aware. Surely America being such a young country made up of citizens from all over the place, it has taken all of its heraldry from other places right? Bears and Lions and Eagles and gak like that... even the national flag is the same colours as the British one, which was on purpose seeing as it was made whilst still a British colony and the original one was the colonial one similar to Hawaii's.
Maybe something Native American (Indian) would be cool and pretty original though, are there any chapters that have been made along those lines? I saw one guys homebrew chapter here on dakka come to mention it.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Then we have Roboute Guilliman/George S. Patton. Excellent strategist to some, widely criticized at the same time, with heraldry rooted in the United States.
Ultramarine heraldry is rooted in Ancient Rome, not the US.
Read the title of the thread again. I take Eagle, Blue and White, and Patton and apply to Ultramarines.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Only this time it is Guilliman being the magnificent bastard and writing the book rather than Dorn/Rommel.
So Guilliman is like Patton except when he is being like Rommel?
The Ultramarine U, their key icon IMO, is certainly older than any American history (resembling an upside down, upper case Omega to my inner physicist) and your two colours (Blue and White) were the colours of the Greek flag the last time I checked.....
Ollanius Pius was not an ageless buddy of the Emperor, but just a man who was in the right place at the right time. His sacrifice showed that no matter how small a life, humanity was worth fighting for, giving Empy the resolve to defeat Horus.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Ollanius Pius was not an ageless buddy of the Emperor, but just a man who was in the right place at the right time. His sacrifice showed that no matter how small a life, humanity was worth fighting for, giving Empy the resolve to defeat Horus.
Or you could say he was "in the wrong place, at the wrong time "
Arcsquad12 wrote: Ollanius Pius was not an ageless buddy of the Emperor, but just a man who was in the right place at the right time. His sacrifice showed that no matter how small a life, humanity was worth fighting for, giving Empy the resolve to defeat Horus.
Or you could say he was "in the wrong place, at the wrong time "
Or it could be both. "The Right Man in the Wrong Place can make all the difference in the world. Now, wake up, Mister Pius. Wake up and, smell the ashes."
Arcsquad12 wrote: Ollanius Pius was not an ageless buddy of the Emperor, but just a man who was in the right place at the right time. His sacrifice showed that no matter how small a life, humanity was worth fighting for, giving Empy the resolve to defeat Horus.
1. Dune (and possibly Fallout) are in-continuity with 40k.
2. Squats were (mostly) wiped out by the Tyranids but they still exist in small numbers. This was the first recon by GW, the second (bad, IMO) recon was to memory hole them entirely.
3. Orks have green blood, damnit.
Edit: and yes, bring back old Pius. It wasn't a Custode who stepped in from of Horus, but an ordinary Guardsman. That's the point: the reciprocal sacrifice of Emperor for man and man for Emperor.
1. Dune (and possibly Fallout) are in-continuity with 40k.
2. Squats were (mostly) wiped out by the Tyranids but they still exist in small numbers. This was the first recon by GW, the second (bad, IMO) recon was to memory hole them entirely.
3. Orks have green blood, damnit.
I just wanted to say "Dune" is 40k x 100 in depth and sf terms IMHO...
I'm glad there are more fans who like me see the connection....
Also Pius vs chink in the armor don't work together in my eyes...
1. Dune (and possibly Fallout) are in-continuity with 40k.
2. Squats were (mostly) wiped out by the Tyranids but they still exist in small numbers. This was the first recon by GW, the second (bad, IMO) recon was to memory hole them entirely.
3. Orks have green blood, damnit.
I just wanted to say "Dune" is 40k x 100 in depth and sf terms IMHO...
I'm glad there are more fans who like me see the connection....
You say "Connection" I say "wholesale pillaging" eh, what's the difference? (Not that Dune was particularly original, mind you). I'm not even a Dune fan, I just can recognize looting when I see it.
I don't see Pius as actually harming Horus. He doesn't give the Emperor an opening by catching Horus off guard. He simply stands between the Emperor and Horus, defiantly holding his ground until Horus casually snuffs his life out.
It is this small act of defiance that gives the Emperor his resolve to finally defeat Horus, not because a lasgun shot managed to pierce a vital servomotor.
1. Dune (and possibly Fallout) are in-continuity with 40k.
2. Squats were (mostly) wiped out by the Tyranids but they still exist in small numbers. This was the first recon by GW, the second (bad, IMO) recon was to memory hole them entirely.
3. Orks have green blood, damnit.
I just wanted to say "Dune" is 40k x 100 in depth and sf terms IMHO...
I'm glad there are more fans who like me see the connection....
You say "Connection" I say "wholesale pillaging" eh, what's the difference? (Not that Dune was particularly original, mind you). I'm not even a Dune fan, I just can recognize looting when I see it.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Ollanius Pius was not an ageless buddy of the Emperor, but just a man who was in the right place at the right time. His sacrifice showed that no matter how small a life, humanity was worth fighting for, giving Empy the resolve to defeat Horus.
Or you could say he was "in the wrong place, at the wrong time "
Or it could be both. "The Right Man in the Wrong Place can make all the difference in the world. Now, wake up, Mister Pius. Wake up and, smell the ashes."
Arcsquad12 wrote: Ollanius Pius was not an ageless buddy of the Emperor, but just a man who was in the right place at the right time. His sacrifice showed that no matter how small a life, humanity was worth fighting for, giving Empy the resolve to defeat Horus.
Or you could say he was "in the wrong place, at the wrong time "
Or it could be both. "The Right Man in the Wrong Place can make all the difference in the world. Now, wake up, Mister Pius. Wake up and, smell the ashes."
Nice reference.
Best part is that it works. If Pius hadn't stepped up and given The Emperor the time he needed to defeat Horus, Chaos might have imploded, saving the galaxy.
(with wanderers fluff) (All of this is according to what has happened as I don't like a stagant gaxaly personally) The Year is 42M The Imperium is in chaos. The ghoul stars remain somehow. The Time of ending is past.... but the Galaxy is still in chaos. (using wanderer fluff time of ending ) Whats going on in the gaxaly -Primarchs Returned -Emperor is dead. -Black Crusade has broken through cadia, -Chaos Primarchs doing stuff destroying imperial worlds and eldar alike -Eldrad was retrieved and placed within a wraithseer. Leading his people into a great life. -Lucius the Eternal is killed for the last time, as Slaanesh finally tires of his deaths and swallows Lucius's soul permanently, Slaanesh finding a new champion to call. -Thousand Sons return back to grace -Read Death of the Emperor by Dark Lord Seanron basically this, minus what happens to the blood angels bit -Blood Angels and many of their successors succumb to the black rage. -Cypher makes his way to the emperor's throne unnoticed and is redeemed alone with all the fallen. -Grey Knights have 3,000 Astartes. Not 1,000 according to the codex due to how large, and how big the threat of daemons is. -Not all Ultramarines are idiots and fools. Captain titus returns after the death of Captain Scarius in the 2nd Tyranic Wars. Titus takes back his place as company captain. -The Space Wolves (Dark lord Seanrons) -Space Marines make use of camo, and do not stand in the open and march in glory. They are in fact soldiers, not warriors. -Grey Knights and the Inqusition cannot exterminatus an entire planet filled with billions of lives or even millions of lives. -Squats don't exist, only dwarves do -The Astartes rule worlds with a large pdf and nephoyte defense force. -The C'tan Outsider no-longer exists, having devoured himself. -There are two empires of Necrons, those that retain their ancient heritage, and those that are slaves to their old masters will. They constantly war upon each other. -The Ghoul Stars are rife with alien races beyond the reckoning of the Imperium -the Cythor Fiends live still..... -The Space Wolves have 3000 Astartes in their chapter. -The Blood Ravens Victory at Aurellia (Angelos is the Chapter Master) -The Third War for Armaggedon has ended, with Armaggedon being completely destroyed the Orks at Armaggedon are defeated, Gazghul Thrakka is killed. -A new Warboss is created.... Simply known as The Warlord he unites the largest Ork Wagh! in Galactic History. -The Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons. Magnus rejoices and rejoins the Imperium... How the Inqusition is able to accept him back... is unknown. -A new religion arises.... -Alpha Legion loyalist section returns having destroyed their traitor elements. -The Marines Malevolent along with 12 chapters turn traitor. -Cadia is saved. -The Entire Storm Crusaders chapter is wiped out, the Astartes battling the New Tyranid Hive Fleet. use their mighty fleet and destroy themselves in the ensuing battle destroying the largest hive fleet to enter the gaxaly. Garane of the Storm Crusaders and 15 others are the only survivors, he believes still there are remainders of the chapter alive. -Iron Hands join the fray against the black crusade. -Chaos Gods relinquish themselves from the universe seeing their victory at the death of the emperor. -More to Be added-
-Wanderers find the last of their Lost- The brotherhood of the ghoul stars still reeling from the destruction of the new tyranid hive fleet and the sacrifices it made during the war, must fight from all sides. The Brotherhood has lost hope as no aide has arrived to their systems. An emergency draft is started, Storm Crusader ships are found drifting with geneseed, and two surviving company is found. Tyrion and his Crusading Company and his reserve company. Tyrion sees himself as the last of his chapter command is given position over the chapter. Tyrion finds Garane and, gives Garane title of Grand Templar. The Chapter begins rebuilding but fighting on. The Emperor's Scythes Chapter emerge in the ultramar system fighting on. The Crimson fists are rebuilt and begin the purging of the surrounding systems The Dark Eldar are destroyed Iyanden is Sacrificed, in a war with the tau. The Remainder of Iyanden join the Beli-Tan Lamenters reappear and good luck seems to finally bloom upon them. They find their geneseed untouched by their guardians. Returning from their pentience. The Dark Angels, find themselves absolved of their sins as their Primarch returns. He grants eternal peace to his mentor and former friend Luther. The Dark Angels swiftly begin reforming their successor chapters back into a unified legion to combat the black crusade under Abaddon The Wanderers and five other chapters are the only missing successors of the dark angels that do not come to the call of their Primarch. Much to the Dismay of the Arch Angel Council, Lion El' Johnson tells them to hold steadfast in their attempts to hold the north, for one day the will be reniforced. Five weeks later Beriel the Virtue Prince along with a Raven Guard Captain discover Corax's ship and the Primarch who had been slumbering for the past 10 millennia. Corax engages Beriel and almost kills him, but sees the markings of the Dark Angels upon him seeing him as an ally, his sons have found their primarch. Angron begins his conquest throughout Ultimia Segmunetum he sees his newest prize. The Blood Angels homeworld, Baal is besieged. -Current Date is M43.003
Maybe something Native American (Indian) would be cool and pretty original though, are there any chapters that have been made along those lines? I saw one guys homebrew chapter here on dakka come to mention it.
I think the Deathwing were originally, weren't they?
The Alpha Legion's plan in Dawn of War was to use Azariah Kyras and the Maledictum Daemon to create a new Warmaster of Chaos to supplant Abaddon, banking on Eliphas the Inheritor's backstabbing ambition as a contingency plan. If Kyras succeeded in sacrificing Aurelia to Khorne, the Alpha Legion suddenly has their new Champion. If Eliphas defeated Kyras, he would take the Ascendant's place.
Either Eliphas or Kyras would then be used to rally the traitor legions under a new banner, kick out Abaddon for his repeated failures to topple the Imperium, and launch a massive invasion against the Imperium under new leadership.
Arcsquad12 wrote: The Alpha Legion's plan in Dawn of War was to use Azariah Kyras and the Maledictum Daemon to create a new Warmaster of Chaos to supplant Abaddon, banking on Eliphas the Inheritor's backstabbing ambition as a contingency plan. If Kyras succeeded in sacrificing Aurelia to Khorne, the Alpha Legion suddenly has their new Champion. If Eliphas defeated Kyras, he would take the Ascendant's place.
Either Eliphas or Kyras would then be used to rally the traitor legions under a new banner, kick out Abaddon for his repeated failures to topple the Imperium, and launch a massive invasion against the Imperium under new leadership.
I would change it to say, And then Little Horus Appeared.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Ollanius Pius was not an ageless buddy of the Emperor, but just a man who was in the right place at the right time. His sacrifice showed that no matter how small a life, humanity was worth fighting for, giving Empy the resolve to defeat Horus.
Or you could say he was "in the wrong place, at the wrong time "
Or it could be both. "The Right Man in the Wrong Place can make all the difference in the world. Now, wake up, Mister Pius. Wake up and, smell the ashes."
I prefer not to have "personal retcons", but if I did have one, I would retcon the Horus Heresy in to an ancient, barely-understood and barely remembered part of Imperial history, more legend than actual fact, instead of something that apparently needs five thousand books to describe it so that maybe BL would be more inclined to write books that aren't about which space marine is more space marine than the other space marines.
Melissia wrote: I prefer not to have "personal retcons", but if I did have one, I would retcon the Horus Heresy in to an ancient, barely-understood and barely remembered part of Imperial history, more legend than actual fact, instead of something that apparently needs five thousand books to describe it so that maybe BL would be more inclined to write books that aren't about which space marine is more space marine than the other space marines.
The HH is particularly guilty of it, as it simply doesn't discuss anything else, beyond a few side characters (who, amusingly, are more interesting than most of the Marine/Primarch cast).
At least your rank and file bolter porn will nominally recognize non-marines exist, mainly as targets, but they're still there.
- I don't read Black Library stuff, so anything in there is largely non-canon in my personal 40k-verse. I only deal with stuff printed in rule books.
- The Tale of Two-heads Talking is not actually an allegory. It happens to match up well with the tale of the civil war between the Lion's legion and Calibanites, but it is still the actual reason the suits of armour are white and not black. The Inner Circle simply likes telling it as they know the initiates will hear many lies throughout their stay as a Dark Angel. So the first story they tell them may as well be the truth (of course this means that my head-canon DA have a lot in common with the Salamanders in terms of how they view their various homeworlds). I just think it is a shame to make it allegorical because it is still my favourite bit of fluff after all these years.
Other than that I take to most of it pretty easily.
Ronin_eX wrote: My major ones are:
- I don't read Black Library stuff, so anything in there is largely non-canon in my personal 40k-verse. I only deal with stuff printed in rule books.
.
How do you manage to do that ?
Tell me the recipe, please...
There is some good BL stuff out there, the key is to avoid SPEHSS MEHRINES and a few...choice authors, and by and large they're not bad.
Frankly, if they'd just stop obsessing over marines, some of these authors with some skill might write more interesting novels. I think it's a misconception that marine bolter porn will sell well, as to date, the most popular series remains Gaunt's Ghosts and the original Eisenhorn trilogy.
You either make the Marines human, in which case you piss off the people who see them as post human and intentionally alien, or you play them entirely straight and end up with blank killing machine's whose only emotions are anger and DULL SURPRISE.
And if you are making humanized marines, you might as well just use Guardsmen or another branch of the Imperium.
Arcsquad12 wrote: You either make the Marines human, in which case you piss off the people who see them as post human and intentionally alien, or you play them entirely straight and end up with blank killing machine's whose only emotions are anger and DULL SURPRISE.
And if you are making humanized marines, you might as well just use Guardsmen or another branch of the Imperium.
Yes, that's pretty much my problem with them in literature as well.
At least Sisters are humans with actual emotions, even if they are in a culture that is quite alien to our own.
Personally, I see a lot of similarities between the Marines and the Sisters - even extending into their psychological profile. They're both heavily indoctrinated and spend their entire life either fighting or preparing to fight, with various weird rituals in-between. And they are both "emotionally scarred" by their environment, much like child soldiers or war veterans, having sacrificed part of their very humanity in the pursuit of their duties.
It is possible to write "good" Sisters as well as good Marines just like it is possible to write convincing aliens who are also interesting. It just seems to be something that very few writers can do. *coughMitchellcough*
For what it's worth, I'm experiencing the same with those Feudal Japanese Kuritans in Battletech novels.
Most readers are able to understand and enjoy the exotic facets of a drastically different culture, but few could truly immerse themselves into it without letting it look awkward. I'm assuming it also has to do with all of us being so marked by our own culture that it's difficult to "cut loose" and understand not only what such an exotic character would do, but also why. I don't think a lot of writers actually study stuff like monastic life or Japanese culture before writing their novels, rather just going ahead with the clichés they can come up with at the moment and biased by what they themselves think would be cool. The end result looks accordingly.
The "Space Marines are alien In mindset and impossible to characterize in a human fashion" argument falls flat when the studio's own fluff does not portray them as that way.
Different, with altering values to our own? Sure. Inhuman? No.
Plus, I've read a few short stories where the writer managed to do alright. I' mentioned that before, but Captain Tycho's last fight on Armageddon was the best one so far.
Void__Dragon wrote: The "Space Marines are alien In mindset and impossible to characterize in a human fashion" argument falls flat when the studio's own fluff does not portray them as that way.
Different, with altering values to our own? Sure. Inhuman? No.
I'm more talking about when their ideals and methods come across as more like Guardsmen in super suits than actual posthumans.Like the Ultramarines movie, where they talk and act like confused neophytes who've never been in any combat EVER, rather than the survivors of years in the Scout Company.
Yep. It shows that when they are portrayed badly, either as normal humans in power armor and not posthuman genetically engineered troopers, things tend to suck.
If I had to pick a preferred version of the Space Marines, I would go with Relic's interpretation of them: Beyond normal humanity, and operating outside of normal customs, but still clinging to what humanity they have left in order to justify their actions they take in defense of the Imperium. Titus's interactions with Miranda and the Imperial Guardsmen on Graia are a great example of what I mean. It's somewhat awkward for the Marines to interact with these people who look up to them like they are gods amongst men. But despite being on a different plane of existence, Titus at least tries to understand and relate with the regular folk.
Likewise with Thaddeus. He clings to what humanity he has left and uses that as his motivation to fight. He fights for what he gave up so that others wouldn't have to. He isn't beyond compassion, it's his driving force of character.
Essentially, I'd like to see Space Marines portrayed in the same sense as Superman is. He is all but unstoppable, so the drama doesn't come from how he will beat the next bad guy, but about him trying to find his place and meaning in the universe, and how he interacts with those he chooses to defend.
I think Astartes offer a lot of scope for interesting characters. There's lots of potential there for illustrating the differences between them and regular humans, and always the potential for crises of conscience and 'how the mighty have fallen' story arcs. There's a lot of room to play and a lot of room for exploration.
The problem is, GW's stable of authors only has one or two really talented authors, and making interesting and complex characters is hard. It's much easier to write boring bolter porn, so for the most part that's what we get. That's not an inherent failing of Marines as characters, imo, so much as a failing of mediocre authors.
Part of the problem is also that a whole lot of people seem to like it that way, though I'm not sure if this is a generational thing or if this disparity in personal preferences has always been this large. It kinda feels as if the "public image" of the Space Marines has evolved over time, getting badder, bigger, ever more epic, with a hundred authors all trying to one-up each other and the fans yelling "more! more!".
Hell, even Jes Goodwin joked about the novels' portrayal in the GW design podcast.
I think ADB once mentioned in an interview that Black Library authors also have some odd restrictions put on their works with regards to what is and isn't acceptable.
He mentioned not being able to go into certain subjects such as sexuality (not just sex, but in the broader sense). It's easier to crank out a BATTLES OF THE SPACE MARINES load of crap than it would be to delve into the mind of a Space Marine undergoing a crisis of faith.
There always needs to be a war, and it always takes precedence to character development. Now you might say "of course there must always be war, in 40K there is only war!"
And that is true. But that doesn't mean that there isn't room for something else, or that every chapter is mandated to have an action scene somewhere.
Arcsquad12 wrote: He mentioned not being able to go into certain subjects such as sexuality (not just sex, but in the broader sense).
That's a blatant fething lie.
Anyone who has read a Graham McNeill book practically chokes on the homoeroticism. Dan Abnett inserts weird and creepy sexuality in Legion, with psyker Imperial Army whores aplenty. ADB himself had some... Weird bits present in The Emperor's Gift. I am pretty sure he has a desperate desire to write Space Marine on human female porn.
Yeah, I'm not sure where you get that "can't post sexuality" bit.
They aren't gonna let you write outright porno in their name (... probably...), but from reading the Cain series, it's obvious that authors can include it.
Melissia wrote: Yeah, I'm not sure where you get that "can't post sexuality" bit.
They aren't gonna let you write outright porno in their name (... probably...), but from reading the Cain series, it's obvious that authors can include it.
Well I guess you can be graphic about it, but in general Game of Thrones-graphic is a poor idea as most people has a burning wish to retain whatever they last have eaten. I find it better to superficially describe rather than go into squicky details myself, but each to themselves.
My retcon is that the Fire Hawks chapter (previously one of the most devoted to the idea that the emperor is actually a divine being) were wiping out a logician hideout and stumbled upon irrefutable proof of the emperor preaching the imperial truth. So they switched there view, reported it to the head of the imperial cult, but before they could spread the word themselves there entire chapter was sent through the warp to render aid and that is when the assasitorum tried to wipe them out before they could spread the word of the imperial truth.
They came back as the legion of the damned but still hide out where nobody can find them, because if they do give there location, the assatorum will try to kill the rest of them.
This also explains there new chapter slogan of "loyal to the emperor, beyond death) Because after discovering the imperial truth, they are now loyal only to the emperor and not to the imperium of man and there imperial cult.
I sort of took the Orks for being street-smart like a hooligan not book-smart like an university-professor. I mean being a violent psychopath has nothing to do with your intelligence.
Beaviz81 wrote: I sort of took the Orks for being street-smart like a hooligan not book-smart like an university-professor. I mean being a violent psychopath has nothing to do with your intelligence.
A more accurate assessment is that they're street-smart like a trained soldier, but with somewhat different priorities than a modern soldier.
Beaviz81 wrote: I sort of took the Orks for being street-smart like a hooligan not book-smart like an university-professor. I mean being a violent psychopath has nothing to do with your intelligence.
A more accurate assessment is that they're street-smart like a trained soldier, but with somewhat different priorities than a modern soldier.
Too undisciplined for a soldier, and I don't like calling soldiers psychopaths.
Beaviz81 wrote: I sort of took the Orks for being street-smart like a hooligan not book-smart like an university-professor. I mean being a violent psychopath has nothing to do with your intelligence.
A more accurate assessment is that they're street-smart like a trained soldier, but with somewhat different priorities than a modern soldier.
Too undisciplined for a soldier, and I don't like calling soldiers psychopaths.
I said "different priorities than a modern soldier".
On average, a modern soldier wants to do their duty, pick up their paycheck, and then go home. Maybe serve another stint or three depending on their tastes.
An Ork, on average, doesn't go to war because they're paid to. They go to war for war's sake.
But the thing is, outside of literature where they are depicted as dumb, Orks are described as having an instinctive combat reaction-- diving for cover, reacting to changing tactical situations, etc. This is just the common boy, too, not nobs or warbosses. They have the instincts of a trained soldier, but without any of the social aspects which cause soldiers to be disciplined or good people.
Arcsquad12 wrote: He mentioned not being able to go into certain subjects such as sexuality (not just sex, but in the broader sense).
That's a blatant fething lie.
Anyone who has read a Graham McNeill book practically chokes on the homoeroticism.
I think Graham Mcneill does a really great job of portraying a relationship between Uriel and Pasanius.
It reminds me of cultures like the Spartans where you loved the dude next to you in the phalanx more than your wife. I am not saying they have a physical relationship but it would be hard to be friends and battle brothers for extremely long periods of time without becoming emotionally invested in each other somehow.
I prefer Mcneills space marines to most of the other authors versions. In the forward for the UM Omnibus he talks a little bit about how he writes them as being super soldiers who still feel everything a human would feel but because of physical and mental conditioning are able to supress there natural urging and feelings. It makes much more sense than a bunch of brain washed muscle heads wondering around shooting whatever they are told. It also makes individual marines falling to chaos make more sense. If they have to constantly make the choice of being the "good guy" they have more humanity than just "i does this because i was told ta uh durrr".
And to me, that violates everything that a Space Marine is.
They are a weapon. Inhuman biologically, inhuman sociologically, inhuman psychologically-- they gave all of that up in the process of becoming a Space Marine. Their reasons for turning to Chaos actually quite frequently stem from the fact that they DON'T have any connection to humanity. "Why the hell am I defending these weaklings?" comes to mind-- after all, it's quite easy for a being like a Space Marine to view itself as better than humanity.
The ones that don't hold this view are the ones that tend to stay quite loyal, to boot-- salamanders and space wolves, for example-- and are the ones that are likewise more beloved by the Imperium as well. In the end, one could argue it varies strongly between chapters and even between individual marines. But even amongst the nicest marines, there's a sort of disconnect between them and humanity, because of what they gave up to become an Astartes.
Melissia wrote: And to me, that violates everything that a Space Marine is.
They are a weapon. Inhuman biologically, inhuman sociologically, inhuman psychologically-- they gave all of that up in the process of becoming a Space Marine. Their reasons for turning to Chaos actually quite frequently stem from the fact that they DON'T have any connection to humanity. "Why the hell am I defending these weaklings?" comes to mind-- after all, it's quite easy for a being like a Space Marine to view itself as better than humanity.
The ones that don't hold this view are the ones that tend to stay quite loyal, to boot-- salamanders and space wolves, for example-- and are the ones that are likewise more beloved by the Imperium as well. In the end, one could argue it varies strongly between chapters and even between individual marines. But even amongst the nicest marines, there's a sort of disconnect between them and humanity, because of what they gave up to become an Astartes.
I am not saying that aren't inhuman just that they have to actively work at being superhuman its not just "bam your a space marine now". I also wouldnt say that they are compatable with human society because they aren't. I just like how much more realistic and relatable McNeills space marines are compared to a lot. They may be superhuman but its all based on a human frame. Even though they are super human killing machines they still have a culture and some sort of personality. I like to think that they give up their human life and any ties to other regular humans but not all of their humanity.
I also really like how they are portrayed in the short story "The Last Detail" in the Legends of the Space Marines.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Legends_of_the_Space_Marines_(Anthology)
Grey Knights rarely kill those they know are innocent and do not mind wipe loyal subjects.
I think the only major thing I personally have retconned is something along the lines of this. In all the proper fluff I have read, like Dan Abnett's Gaunts Ghost's series, and in numerous Imperial Armour books, the veteran guardsmen who have fought the ruinous powers and fought against renegades, traitor marines and Daemons go on to fight chaos in later campaigns, and do so successfully because of their experience. They don't just get executed right after the battle by some dull marines from the Inquisistion, because they might have set their eyes on a Daemon or something similar. They might be under scrutiny, yes, and also imprisoned, or sent to battles they cannot survive, but not they are simply not executed because of what they have seen, because they still are valuable assets to the Imperium. I like the way that Compel puts it:
Compel wrote: As an Imperial Guard player, I like the idea that Guardsmen tend to be killed off after encountering demons / grey knights. It does help the grim darkness and helps illustrate just exactly the price of a guardsmans life.
However, I'd also like to think they're relatively sensible about it all. For example, only doing it after the war is over and other more pragmatic alternatives tend to be considered. - For example, being seconded by the Inquisition for certain missions where cannon fodder is required. Might as well not waste a new resource on it when you've got a perfectly good one that hasn't gone insane quite yet and may prove still useful. However, you wouldn't want them going off to a normal warzone, against say, orks, and have them interacting with other regiments.... That would be unwise.
I'm writing a narrative battle report right now which really plays this up. The Guard are clueless about demons, however my Guard know of:
the executioners... Though their names were unknown, their deeds of terror were known throughout the lowest ranks of the guard. They were the Bringers of The Warp, silencers of the Convent, and some of the most unreliable soldiers even claim these silver clad destroyers were responsible for the genocide of Armageddon...
I agree on the fact that IG regiments who have fought chaos in all its forms should not be sent to an entirely different theatre of war fighting an entirely different enemy. They should fight chaos for the duration of that campain, and if they are sane enough, maybe be sent to other chaos incursions and fight the same type of enemy there.
Oh, and Codex: GK doesn't exist. They are still just a tool of the Inquisistion, not dull plot-altering super marines.
Exactly, its stupid the idea that the Inquisition and Grey Knights would execute loyal soldiers of the Imperium who have stood up and defeated the forces of Chaos. You should be using these men to help you win battles, not relying on untried soldiers who may break when encountering Chaos.
I also HATE it when books present Space Marines in this "we do this for myself at thats it. feth humanity they deserve to be destroyed for being weak" and that is a loyalist speaking. Its awful and you dont even want to cheer for them.
Thats why I love the way McNeill writes his UMs as the defenders of humanity. You want them to succeed because of how honorable they are.
My personal RetCon would be the brainless splitting of the SM chapters over several theaters. Thousand soldiers, and be they enhanced supersoldiers with elite equipment, are a force small enough considering we talk about whole planets being the battle theaters here. Why divide them up, one company here, one company there, then in one campaign we have two companies of this chapter, one of that, two more of the next... talk about ineffiency! The independent operational unit is the chapter, not the company.
Coolyo294 wrote: 2. The Vostroyan Firstborn only recruit the firstborn sons of Vostroya, not the sons and daughters.
Isn't that canon? Not that it really makes any sense, but still.
There were some bits in FFG's Only War that said it was the firstborn child of every family that got recruited. And then there was the picture of the female Vostroyan medic later in the book.
I don't exactly like the way ork tribe/clans work from the way I understand it. Supposedly, orks inherently are born, or gravitate toward one of the 6 clans, or they don't, and they are freebooters.
I like the 6 clans a lot, but I don't think 'freebooters' should be the catch all for all non slandered clan orks.
I've seen fluff both ways on this. I would want to see a great diversity of clans forming, as much as Space Marine fans have countless different chapters.
Coolyo294 wrote: 2. The Vostroyan Firstborn only recruit the firstborn sons of Vostroya, not the sons and daughters.
Isn't that canon? Not that it really makes any sense, but still.
There were some bits in FFG's Only War that said it was the firstborn child of every family that got recruited. And then there was the picture of the female Vostroyan medic later in the book.
That really makes more sense than only the firstborn son anyway, is what I meant.
jayjester wrote: I don't exactly like the way ork tribe/clans work from the way I understand it. Supposedly, orks inherently are born, or gravitate toward one of the 6 clans, or they don't, and they are freebooters.
I like the 6 clans a lot, but I don't think 'freebooters' should be the catch all for all non slandered clan orks.
I've seen fluff both ways on this. I would want to see a great diversity of clans forming, as much as Space Marine fans have countless different chapters.
Most regular Orks (if there is such a thing) are either feral or will gravitate towards the Snakebites. Freebootaz are the Orks in it for the money and the flash
jayjester wrote: I don't exactly like the way ork tribe/clans work from the way I understand it. Supposedly, orks inherently are born, or gravitate toward one of the 6 clans, or they don't, and they are freebooters.
I like the 6 clans a lot, but I don't think 'freebooters' should be the catch all for all non slandered clan orks.
I've seen fluff both ways on this. I would want to see a great diversity of clans forming, as much as Space Marine fans have countless different chapters.
Most regular Orks (if there is such a thing) are either feral or will gravitate towards the Snakebites. Freebootaz are the Orks in it for the money and the flash
jayjester wrote: I don't exactly like the way ork tribe/clans work from the way I understand it. Supposedly, orks inherently are born, or gravitate toward one of the 6 clans, or they don't, and they are freebooters.
I like the 6 clans a lot, but I don't think 'freebooters' should be the catch all for all non slandered clan orks.
I've seen fluff both ways on this. I would want to see a great diversity of clans forming, as much as Space Marine fans have countless different chapters.
Most regular Orks (if there is such a thing) are either feral or will gravitate towards the Snakebites. Freebootaz are the Orks in it for the money and the flash
I... what?
No, the largest clan is the Goffs clan.
Of the unaffiliated Orks, most of them are Ferals. The Snakebites are the next closest thing to a Feral Ork, so I assume that most Ferals join up with the Snakebites.
Melissia wrote: That really makes more sense than only the firstborn son anyway, is what I meant.
Eh, that may be true but unless Vostroyan woman can grow glorious Stalin-staches, I don't want to see them in the First-Born.
Well bearded ladies can be appealing at least if you ask Korgan Bloodaxe of Baldur's Gate II-fame.
Korgan getting Jan to tell a story is quite funny and disturbing:
Korgan: ‘Tis been far too long since our last battle. Jan, ye runty windbag, tell me a story to ward off the boredom ... and if ye know what’s good for ye, it’ll be about dwarves!
Jan: Ah, finally someone who appreciates my tales! A tale about dwarves, eh? Let me see, of course - my cousin Kimble. Not a dwarf himself per se, but Kimble always was of peculiar tastes for a gnome. He fell in love with a dwarven lass. She was stout and stocky, with a gruff voice and a soft, supple beard...
Korgan: Ah, gnome, ye know how to paint a lovely picture ... such a beauty she must ha’ been!
Jan: Oh yes, she was a fine looking woman ... to Kimble’s eyes at least. She cast a spell on him far stronger than any sorcerer could have. But she wouldn’t have anything to do with my cousin - she had dwarven princes and clan lords after her calloused hands, and she couldn’t be bothered with a dirt poor turnip farming gnome. But Kimble’s heart wouldn’t be denied ... he left his own family to follow this bewitching character back to her clan home.
Korgan: Yer losin’ me gnome, I don’t want no weeping love story. I want killin’ and death! Give me blood!
Jan: You wanted a story about dwarves, and this is the only one I’ve got. I just can’t make up a life, you know ... that would be an affront to the grand tradition of storytelling in my family! Now, where was I? Oh yes, Kimble. My cousin followed the lovely dwarven lass to her clan home in the Alimir Mountains, and started a turnip farm there. He had a rough go of it at first, let me tell you ... taxes, levies, zoning restrictions. It was almost like the dwarves didn’t want him and his farm there. But they never had turnips, so they didn’t really know what they were missing. One of those turnips started to sprout things, changed in a hurry. Turns out the dwarves of that particular clan LOVED turnips. Fried, baked, boiled, pureed, mashed - you couldn’t find a meal of the day they didn’t have turnips with. Turnips became so fashionable they began to wear clothes made from turnips. Never did a dwarf look so snazzy (or smell so appetizing) as when he dressed up in a turnip top hat and turnip tails, with turnip skin shoes to complete the ensemble. And with his turnip business booming, Kimble had more wealth than he knew what to do with. Just walking around his house was an effort, what with all the mountains of gold spilling out of every door of every room.
Korgan: All that gold got me attention, gnome. But the happy ending isn’t doin’ much for me.
Jan: Happy ending? I never said any such thing. Kimble was rich, true enough - but it turns out his dwarven love didn’t share her clans’ fondness for turnips. In fact, she was deathly allergic. She did her best to avoid the lethal vegetables, but as popular as Kimble’s crops were it was only a matter of time before she accidentally ate one. It killed her, of course. Heartbroken, Kimble tried to return to his own people. But the dwarves just weren’t going to let him and his turnips leave. They threw him in prison and demanded he reveal the secrets of turnip farming, but that isn’t something you can just teach. You either have the gift or you don’t, and dwarves don’t. In the end Kimble’s frail body succumbed to the dwarves’ torture and interrogation and he left to join his beloved in the afterlife. And that particular dwarven clan discovered that turnip farmers were almost as tasty as turnips themselves. Or so I’ve heard.
Korgan: HAR! HAR! HAR! A great tale, gnome. Ye done yerself proud!
Coolyo294 wrote: 2. The Vostroyan Firstborn only recruit the firstborn sons of Vostroya, not the sons and daughters.
Isn't that canon? Not that it really makes any sense, but still.
There were some bits in FFG's Only War that said it was the firstborn child of every family that got recruited. And then there was the picture of the female Vostroyan medic later in the book.
It's stated to be the firstborn son. But if there is an older daughter do that child even if being number 2 or later get sent? Plus there are the other Vostroyan regiments which might have women as well.
And if the family has nothing but daughters, do they suddenly et out of their obligations and not send any children to the Vostroyan Firstborn? Escaping the obligation to the regiment and the mechanicus?
I just don't see the Mechanicus accepting that. Firstborn child, regardless of gender, would make more sense for the Mechanicus.
Look this is a moot point. Vostroya have more regiments than just the Firstborn, so they can get off scot-free sending some of the girls to another less prestigious regiment of Vostroya. I can't even see the reason for this anger, it's supposed to be Tsar-Russia in space.
Beaviz81 wrote: Look this is a moot point. Vostroya have more regiments than just the Firstborn, so they can get off scot-free sending some of the girls to another less prestigious regiment of Vostroya. I can't even see the reason for this anger, it's supposed to be Tsar-Russia in space.
Stop trying to belittle what I'm saying by claiming "anger".
Yeah but Tsarist Russia existed before women suffrage. Sad but true with the armies of the more archaic worlds in Warhammer 40.000. At least I go for the compromise that girls might serve in Vostroyan regiments outside the Firstborn. Plus the word firstborn tends to mean son. Ancient royal stuff.
I wasn't trying to belittle you or anything Melissia, sorry for that.
Beaviz81 wrote: Yeah but Tsarist Russia existed before women suffrage.
And in the year 40,000, women's suffrage has existed for a VERY long time, so that reasoning isn't really all that relevant to me. What's more important is that it ISN'T the Vostroyans that are dictating the terms here. It's the Mechanicus. And the Mechanicus doesn't have any reason to discriminate between fleshbags on the basis of gender-- in fact, the higher-ups of the mechanicus probably don't have a gender any more, simply because they've removed that part of their body (it's a distraction that makes people think of fleshy desires, and keeps the person from being one with the machine) and are now so much a part of a machine that they barely qualify as human, and certainly do not qualify as male or female.
tl;dr, I don't care about Tsarist Russia unless it's an alternate history fiction anyway so that argument doesn't work on me
Vostroya wouldn't be the only world in the entire Imperium to only recruit its men for military service. The method of recruitment is up to the local government. The Munitorum does not care about sex, only that the tithe is fulfilled and that the material is of sufficient quality.
And yes, the IG Codex specifically stated "firstborn sons". It is one of the areas where FFG material deviates from studio fluff, just like they have opted to make individual Storm Troopers join grunt squads. The obvious thinking behind all of this being that players in the P&P have more classes to choose from and are not limited by gender.
Melissia wrote: And if the family has nothing but daughters, do they suddenly et out of their obligations and not send any children to the Vostroyan Firstborn? Escaping the obligation to the regiment and the mechanicus?
I just don't see the Mechanicus accepting that. Firstborn child, regardless of gender, would make more sense for the Mechanicus.
The Mechanicus' thoughts on the matter are irrelevant, it was Guilliman who made the Firstborn dictate as punishment for the Technarch's treasonous withholding of manpower during the Heresy. If he - or the Administratum scribe who transcribed his dictate - worded it as Firstborn son, either by intent or purely by accident* then that's what the Vostroyan government are required to provide.
* case in point, my father died when I was 11, I was raised by my mother - a former Captain in the British Army - to whom I am very close and whose house I am typing this in, I am certainly not sexist, yet I inadvertently used the masculine word MANpower in my second sentence. And we know from canon that the Imperium is not above such errors - hence the Adepta Sororitas.
As for my own retcons, a lot of mine tend to be anti-retcons:
Space Marines still have Imperial Commanders, Lieutenant-Commanders and Lieutenants.
Ultramarine (and Codex adherent) Captains and Lieutenants wear black & yellow helmets respectively - it always irked me that Captains would switch back to blue, these are the colours that were meant to accompany the red-hat for sergeants according to the concept sketches published in the WD issue that coincided with the release of the 5th edition marine codex.
Chapter cult organised as per original RT article: A chaplain is a chaplain is a chaplain. The reclussiarch is neither plural nor a chaplain.
Heresy era Legions were still generally organised as per WD126 - albeit with the Legion size from Collected Visions (which stated even the smallest Legion had 100k - none of this 'oh Ultramarines were 250k strong but the Salamanders were only 7k strong' rubbish).
Abhumans are still abundant, the guard still uses cloven hoofed beastmen as cannon fodder assault troops and the Squat homeworlds are still located nowhere near any of the Tyranid hive fleet's routs.
Inadvertent anti-retcons - I didn't say "yeah thats better" they just kind of crept up on me:
1. The chapter organisation for the big four (including smurfs and the codex in general) was first introduced in the Armies of the Imperium supplement for EPIC. When GW introduced it to 40k they kept the company specialisations but changed the composition of the company, originally Battle Companies were split 30/30/30 instead of 60/20/20, I much prefer the symmetry of this.
2. Salamanders are yellow with black stripes, no it wasn't a Badab War specific camo scheme - they were supposed to look like Tiger Salamanders.
Melissia wrote: I prefer not to have "personal retcons", but if I did have one, I would retcon the Horus Heresy in to an ancient, barely-understood and barely remembered part of Imperial history, more legend than actual fact, instead of something that apparently needs five thousand books to describe it so that maybe BL would be more inclined to write books that aren't about which space marine is more space marine than the other space marines.
This.
Then the primarchs could once again be mythical heroes of a long forgotten age instead of the personal sues of whatever author is currently boring us with yet another HH book.
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Galdos wrote: Exactly, its stupid the idea that the Inquisition and Grey Knights would execute loyal soldiers of the Imperium who have stood up and defeated the forces of Chaos. You should be using these men to help you win battles, not relying on untried soldiers who may break when encountering Chaos.
I also HATE it when books present Space Marines in this "we do this for myself at thats it. feth humanity they deserve to be destroyed for being weak" and that is a loyalist speaking. Its awful and you dont even want to cheer for them.
Thats why I love the way McNeill writes his UMs as the defenders of humanity. You want them to succeed because of how honorable they are.
It is actualy not a stupid idea to execute them. A single bad apple amongst these veterans can easily doom an entire world. Turning both spacemarines and the imperium into some kind of heroes is imo extremely annoying. The most redeeming factor of the setting is, that it avoids that tired old, manichean duality between good guys and bad guys. Everyone is despicable, some are just worse than others.
Weakening this aspect will finaly send 40k right to the level of most (stereotypical) saturday morning cartoons where the good guys are good and the bad guys are evil and any kind of ambiguity
is avoided.
Beaviz81 wrote: Yeah but Tsarist Russia existed before women suffrage.
And in the year 40,000, women's suffrage has existed for a VERY long time, so that reasoning isn't really all that relevant to me. What's more important is that it ISN'T the Vostroyans that are dictating the terms here. It's the Mechanicus. And the Mechanicus doesn't have any reason to discriminate between fleshbags on the basis of gender-- in fact, the higher-ups of the mechanicus probably don't have a gender any more, simply because they've removed that part of their body (it's a distraction that makes people think of fleshy desires, and keeps the person from being one with the machine) and are now so much a part of a machine that they barely qualify as human, and certainly do not qualify as male or female.
tl;dr, I don't care about Tsarist Russia unless it's an alternate history fiction anyway so that argument doesn't work on me
Thank you for quoting only the woman-hostile parts of what I wrote. Also a lot of worlds are Knight Worlds. Lets say Vostroya is that just for arguments sake. Then they basically have the healthy Russian view on women before the suffrage. Of course that might or might not be the case as they are established as an Industrial World. Who is a mix between a Mining and a Forge World. Often sparsely populated and such so the people need the women to breed not die.
I don't think it bothers anyone because it's women, but rather because it's one of the many cases where consistency between the material is undermined.
I mean, by the same token we could ask why it would bother anyone if there were female Space Marines. Sure you'll find a number of mysogynists amongst the naysayers, but I'd reckon that would actually be the minority.
The Vostroyans being mono- or multi-gendered really is just a tiny, tiny minor detail, but conflicting interpretations of the setting remain conflicting interpretations, and with 40k, over the span of its existence those have accumulated to an extent where almost everything is contradicted somewhere, save for the most obvious constants.
And some fans just like consistency.
I certainly never intended to be hostile; that I just tend to not particularly care for historical "accuracy". Let's not get in to the fact that oftentimes the ones pushing heaviest for historical accuracy are themselves pushing historically inaccurate worldviews. I don't CAAAAAAARE. [/cartoonishly long drawn-out deep-voiced slow-down]
One can have flavor from a historical period without copying every fething part of it. The Vostroyans and so many other parts of 40k do exactly this-- drawing just enough from the inspiration that it provides an interesting base, while then taking their material to new places with their own creativity.
I'm one of the few people who think the fluff works better when the Imperium is a bunch of white men.
This is a xenophobic and superstitious empire that's as backwards as a society can be. They're obsessed with maintaining genetic purity, which prompts them to kill all mutants. And all of the High Lords of Terra and the vast majority of Astartes and nobles are white men. Think that's a coincidence?
No, the Imperium is just as sexist and racist as it is xenophobic.
An easy thing for you to say, but that doesn't make it any better for everyone else who is not a member of the privileged class of white heterosexual males.
If you want it to be oppressive, why should the setting use YOUR particular group as the basis for the group that isn't oppressed?
You just want to get out of being oppressed by the Imperium Silly you, oppression is for EVERYONE, not "everyone but the white hetero-sexual male"; the Imperium is an equal opportunity oppressor, and you will step in line to be oppressed by everyone else, and YOU WILL LIKE IT.
There are Imperial Guard regiments that are entirely equipped with Bolt weaponry.
The Emperor is dead. The sacrifice of psykers is the only thing keeping the astronomicon lit.
Terra is not a hive world but more of a shrine to humanity's glory. Only the wealthiest live there, only the finest foods get consumed and only the purest of heart worship the embalmed corpse. It is one of the nicest planets in the Imperium but many people toil in it's shadow to keep it that way.
There are untold billions planets (Only around 30% habitable) that the Imperium controls. There are Qunitillions of Imperial Guardsmen in each segmentum alone thanks to the abundance of high population worlds and countless orbital cities. Billions of Guardsmen die thanks to clerical errors. The population of humans alone is easily in the order of Googolplex. Guardsmen are truly the best of the best but they are only human. They die in droves not because of their own incompetence but because of the scale they are fighting and the enemies that they fight.
Void__Dragon wrote:Whereas the Space Marines being all-male is a very big detail that has IIRC been with the setting since its inception.
And the Vostroyans have been all-male since they were created. At least in GW's material.
I mean, I fully agree that it's not as big a thing as Marines being all-male, but consistency is consistency. At which level of detail people draw their lines is purely a matter of preferences.
You actually noted that in your next post yourself - it's just that the one I was replying to came across as if you'd accuse Beaviz of acting out of misogyny rather than being bothered by unnecessary deviation.
Miscommunication.
Compel wrote: I've heard this opinion around several times. And been quite freaked out about it each time.
The Imperium tolerates ogres and hobbits, there has been times when they've even made use of literal beastmen as cannon fodder.
The Imperium does not give a monkeys about what region of an Imperial planet a person comes from, they've got bigger things to worry about.
Tolerance does not necessarily imply acceptance. Ogryns and Rattlingsare considered to be second class citizens at best while beastmen ( at least if we trust the "Only War" fluff ) might soon lose their
status as tolerated ( although opressed and exploited ) variant of the homo sapiens. The Imperium is obsessed with genetic purity ( as little as this word means ) but at least they don't care too much about the colour of one's skin ( unless it is violet or green or something, then you have a good chance to be declared a despicable mutant ).
The death company that do not die in combat are kept in stasis because the flaw is thinning the number of BA. Astorath manages this by also using them as test subjects for corbolo to find a cure.(I use this because I named a few of my DC, and they never change.)
The night lords numbers are not dwindling. They are just in wait. and have nothing to do with chaos. they just wipe out chapters at their weakest.
There is no such thing as an ork making a mistake....
My personal retcon is that Commander Farsight is from a more recent time instead of a historical footnote from 200 years ago that somehow made it into the codex.
That way, Tau fluff is one step closer to full-on Gandam parody, as Shadowsun can be the Haman Karn to Farsight's Char without the fact that he's dead (barring cloning or magical shenanigans) getting in the way.
Another personal piece of re- retcon: my DA have still an Iron Wing. With my org chart it consists of the support tanks, the flyers and the landing vessels, distinguished by a red signature area beneath the chapter symbol.
Trying to stay somewhat similar to 5th crons so that the changes to the army still work:
The C'tan were never betrayed by their Necron servants (after all there would have been fail-safes ensuring that there would be no betrayals right? Or loyalty programming? Or maybe the Necrons still think of them as gods?). After the war in heaven many of the C'tan were destroyed, and the remainder were too far and few between to control the galaxy like they once did, so in order to spread their influence and fight on more fronts they splintered their essence; creating the shards. Their power was then divided among these shards. (Except the Void Dragon, who is trapped on Mars. That is the truth of the omnissiah and the terrible secret of the Adeptus Mechanicus)
Also higher up Necron's such as Overlords, Lords, and Crypteks retained their minds and personality in order to be better leaders and so that they can operate independently of the C’tan if need be (and because the C'tan love all the god-worship).
Finally, Flayed ones retained their minds as well, but weren’t equipped to deal with immortality like the Royal Court and Phaerons, so they went insane. They now wear the skin of organics as a desperate attempt to once again be among the living (rather than doing it just because they’re bat-gak crazy)
EDIT: I saw this on 1d4chan and thought it could be an amusing retcon:
Spoiler:
That Draigo is, in fact, defeated - Chaos cannot be beaten in its own realm of non-space because of the mere fact that chaotic beings are immortal, after all, and none of the above is true.
Right now, this very moment, Draigo is in fact a shredded pile of torn flesh and shattered bone after having his ass handed to him by the above Lord of Change and Bloodthirster, who proceeded to step in whilst the Lord kept him distracted - just as planned. This pile of broken ex-marine is also gushing ooze and phlegm and pus as he was infected with every blight and pox Nurgle has to offer. This shredded, oozing pile....thing, is also being raped and violated in the most unspeakable and vile ways by the Daemonettes of Slaanesh.
And so it shall continue, for all eternity. Because every single Chaos God finds it fething hilarious.
The only reason he thinks "all is well" is because Tzeentch thought he'd have a bit fun with Draigo. He stuck Draigo into a matrix-esque dream world where everything goes his way and is just waiting for Draigo to climb as high as he can. This dream world will probably last until Draigo has crushed the Chaos gods themselves and all their armies beneath his feet and caused the God-Emperor himself to rise from the throne and suck him off!
Then, at the "funniest" possible moment, right as his bolter is about to fire its payload (and we're not talking about the one on his wrist), Tzeentch will rip it all away from him, Draigo will wake up and see what has really become of him and weep tears of utter loss and despair! "Just as planned!"
I mentioned earlier that is exactly what I believe about Draigo. Except they are trying to convince him to turn to Chaos by showing he can not accomplish anything
MajorStoffer wrote: The Leman Russ isn't armoured with just plain old steel.
FW will never live that one down.
Also, the riveted armour on Imperial vehicles is an ablative layer designed to protect against high-energy weapons, with the main hull being properly welded together. Space Marine vehicles largely lack this layer, hence lower armour values in TT.
Ew thats good I like that.
Moi: -There are many worlds with advanced technologies in the Imperium. In game terms these can be represented by other codexes. -There are nonImperium human civilizations out there, doing just fine. -Many, if not most chaos worlds are not crazy foam spewing freaks. They're normal, and just threw off the yoke of the Imperial rule. -The Eldar are not all dying out. Some craftworlds and maiden worlds have resorted to using Dark Eldar cloning and incubation techniques to develop far larger populations, populations that are remembering what the Eldar Empire was, and have resolved to take back what was theirs. -Marines can start the process much later - aka adults - with proper gene therapy. (I don't like the concept of child soldiers thank you) -Tyranids are a menace, but they are not the all powerful swarm taking out the galaxy. The main hive fleets that entered are indeed the vanguard. The remnants are all thats left, which gives the rest of the galaxy a strong fighting chance of beating them.
The Swarmlord isn't fully sentient in thought, the Hive Mind simply uses it as a massive "conductor beacon" when a threat challenges the Hive fleet or when the psychic link falters. He isn't some Kerrigenesque character shoved in to add personality to the Tyranids, which they already have, but not in a special character way.
Draigo is a long forgotten and best forgotten memory of the Grey Knights, who insulted the Chaos God only to be dragged off by Karnak and forced into a lucid dream world, where his reality is a mash of his dreams and nightmares.
The Emperor is an Old One. End of the necron war, he ditched the losing side and hid. Once everyone else was dead and necrons went to sleep, he popped back out.
Think about it like this. The Old Ones created the lesser races to help fight the necrons. I would assume in their own images, which is why all the races are similar yet different. Big E was the inspiration for humanity.
He may seem a bit xenophobic, but then again, if someone built something that rivaled your own creation and then left forever, you would be tempted to beat it down too.
The Old Ones created the Warp and would obviously be intimately aware of how it works. Big E knew enough of the Warp to be able to screw over and cheat the chaos gods.
He has enough psyker ability to light the astronomicon as well as single-handedly hold chaos in check while almost dead.
Has been around for a very long time, quite possibly at the advent of humanity, guiding them along.
I dont care what GW ever puts out, I stand by the idea that he is the last of the Old Ones.
- the Blood Angels as a whole. (Vampires and Werewolves. Really GW? Why not make it at least more interesting with a Cowboy Chapter...)
So true, but aside dumb twilight and Mary Sue primarch, what @Omegus said one time they are really super boring...
How about Space Wolves? Those are boring too.
*ducks away, looking for cover*
Agreed. The only reason that i have more respect for the Wolves is that our local meta has only a handful of SW places who love the crap out of their armies.
It shows, and make me appreciate the Wolves significantly more.
Local BA players tend to be very 'meh' about their armies.
Me too,also they have much more logical explanation to their canine genes ( what Magnus was explainin' in "a TS", you know death world, first colonists) , but jolly good vikings of late is a little off (for me)....
But La Chupacabra and half gai approach - NO!
I'mean they have an urge to SUCK (blood)...I'mean wtf? Astartes?
thenoobbomb wrote: Blood Angels don't want to 'suck' blood and they don't.
That's the Blood Drinkers, mate.
They are drinking blood...period
- their sucking successor chapter has a chapter master who is called like Max Schrek in Nosferatu - Orloc
-only thing worse than that are mission impossible marines
* me ducking for cover *
thenoobbomb wrote: Blood Angels don't want to 'suck' blood and they don't.
That's the Blood Drinkers, mate.
They are drinking blood...period
- their sucking successor chapter has a chapter master who is called like Max Schrek in Nosferatu - Orloc
-only thing worse than that are mission impossible marines
* me ducking for cover *
That's the second time in a week you try to offend me. Typical space wolf behaviour...
Since we're on the subject of the Alpha Legion, another personal retcon of mine is more a retcon of a retcon. I don't like the idea of the Alpha Legion working against Horus by working with him, I prefer it the way I first read/ interpreted it; Alpharius had always given his loyalty to Horus before the Emperor, that's why he joined the Heresy.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: Since we're on the subject of the Alpha Legion, another personal retcon of mine is more a retcon of a retcon. I don't like the idea of the Alpha Legion working against Horus by working with him, I prefer it the way I first read/ interpreted it; Alpharius had always given his loyalty to Horus before the Emperor, that's why he joined the Heresy.
QFT and this is what I wroted on previous page...I'm not even angry at dumb James Bond LEGION concept, only Cabal...I' mean c'mon, it's like Mexican soap opera...
My guess is that the Cabal probably won't play that big of a role and that the focus on the AL will be the continually growing divide between Alpharius and Omegon.
That Draigo ever existed at all and/or had a single sentence written about him.
That there are approx 1000 Space Marine chapters are 1000 strong, with the way we play this game they would have been completely obliterated within a year
2. HH remains a time of legend and mystery and all of the Primarchs, Chaos or not, are lost in the annals of time.
2. The Tau treat other species as second class but are not totalitarian in policing them, they are waging a massive economic and political war against the IoM to convert human worlds to their side which has allowed them to start expanding significantly but not appear to be such an existential threat that the IoM feels they need to waste the resources wiping them out. Basically the IoM knows the Tau are hurting them but the costs of destroying them currently outweigh the cost of them continueing to do what they do.
3. The IoM operates more like the Rogue Merchants with hundreds of sectors that oprerate almost completely indepedent of the IoM. But they are helpless to stand up to the massive and advanced IG navalships so they remain very loyal in regards to various tithes.
4. The AM consistently produces new technologies but at incremental pace and the distribution of the new tech remains very small as it is only doled out on the basis of favors to the AM.
5. Chaos mostly comes in the form of highly advanced marauders. They very rarely initiate large invasions. Instead they are dependent on legitimate IoM rebellions which they then infliltrate by offering more advanced weapons, intelligence, or supplies before converting them to Chaos. Chaos is also more of a mind agent that creates a sort of frenzied mob mentality. Chaos is essential much more subtle and less about giving people mutations/bathing in bile than corrupting people with good intentions until they lose all perspective on right and wrong and are just devoted to destroying the IoM. They become kind of like terrorists where they could have families and kids that they are nice to from time to time but would use them as meatshields in a second if they deemed it neccessary.
Will post more later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 1. Inquisitors are like the IRA on steroids mixed with Hannibal Lector mixed with Sherlock Holmes. Their main jobs is to serve as regulators for Terra and act as enforcers so that no one forgets where the central authority of the IoM lies. Since botching numbers is incredibly simple the High Lords have to have Inquisitors eyes onsite to make sure things are done properly. Proper tithes, proper showing of faith ect. As a result Inquistors spend less time fighting real heresy and more time fighting corruption in local goverments. Except when they find corruption there isn't a trial they just start killing gak.
2. I was very inspired by a medieval painting of Calgar from the 2nd edition codex. Space Marines are closer to space lords than military monks. I imagined them being the soldiers, captains and generals that composed a perfect military machine under the Emperor. After the HH the High Lords didn't have the IG the way they do now to protect the IoM so early on they designated systems for Chapters to guard. But over the millenia those orders became less like military postings at a base and more feudal in nature. Now they essentially lease out planets to Chapters under the condition that they would protect those planets and heed the High Lords call to war. The state of the system really depends on the noble/chapter master who owns the planet/fief.
I remember that part.
- I mean, in my world they are only chaos marines loyal to Horus, none of that crap....
