After joining Dakka I see alot of Ultramarine hate calling them Smurfs and the like. Where does all that come from? For the record i'm not that into the Ultramarines, my favorite chapters are the Grey Knights and Black Templars.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/432696.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461205.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/430120.page

Plenty of old threads on this. At least none this month though.

Oh god this thread again.

Most people don't really hate the Ultramarines. They're just annoyed at how they're the poster boys, oftentimes being poster-boys to the point of self-parody.

End discussion.

I hate them because of their color-scheme actually.

Blue and gold? Come on son. What is this.

They are smurfs because they are blue and everything they have is blue. And they are made fun of for being the poster boy starter army. But feth everyone most of it is trolls anyways

Several possible reasons:

Most recent codex says (and this is a summary from memory and so can be wrong), that Space Marines are essentially divided into those that follow the Ultramarine model (As Gulliman wrote the Codex Astartes, and is the "spiritual liege" of all the SM), and... basically a bunch of chapters that are doing it wrong and don't amount to much. (This is the primary beef with anybody who has made up their own chapter. This is also a reason why people don't like Mat Ward).

I'm hazy on this point, but another point of contention is that the Ultramarines didn't exactly do a whole lot during the Horus Heresy compared to other legions, yet Gulliman somehow ends up dictating to others how they should run their outfits.

Another reason is they're the poster boys of the Space Marines, and with fame comes haters. (And also Ward likes them, so people who hate Ward, by extension hate Ultramarines).


Also, I don't think calling them smurfs is particularly derogatory, just a nickname for them like

Because of the Fluff ward wrote.

Made it to the sixth post before draigo'ing. Impressive.

I went through a bit on those links, it just seems wierd to hate on them even if they ARE the posterboys I found a good quote that i really liked from a guy named Zweischneid

"They call it the Nerd Hierarchy in other places.

By ridiculing and looking down on a hobby aspect virtually identical to their own, those deep-down uncomfortable with their hobby, too immature to face up to it and admit it to their peers and friends, can feel "more mature" about themselves and their time in the hobby by the self-delusion of collecting the "superior" plastic toys and reading the "superior" plastic-toy-background-fluff. "

One neckbeard trying to psychoanalyze the other neckbeards is the blind leading the blind.

Not only is it hypocritical, but it's also kind of dumb to assert that the reason why someone doesn't like the faction that you're a fanboy of is because of some latent mental disorders and self-esteem issues. I could easily make the same gakky argument.

"The reason people like the Ultramarines is because 40K attracts nerds and socially awkward individuals. The most awkward and repressed of these individuals gravitate toward the Ultramarines because their lack of self-confidence and perceived "significance" in the real world drives them to compensate by gravitating toward the "strongest", "best" or most "famous" factions in a virtual world, such as the Ultramarines in 40K."

Boom. Maybe, at the end of the day, people dislike fictional faction A and prefer fictional faction B because that is their preference.

And not past the first page before it got nasty. God I love these threads.

Yeah, people's feelings will start getting hurt soon though, and then Manchu will be up in here, revoking my quick-reply privileges again.

For how quickly things "escalate" here, Dakkaites seem to be very sensitive.

I don't think it got nasty, maybe BlaxicanX is right, people are sensitive.It's a forum right? Everyone has their own opinions and their own ways of expressing them. Besides... I still got my Question answered =D

Ultramarines see a bit more hate because of the spotlight GW likes to put on them, and because some of the fluff is so OTT, going out if its way to portray them as the shining, squeaky-clean, goodie two shoes marines. People don't like that they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws, and they really didn't like the idea that every other chapter would venerate Guilliman and his teachings above their own primarchs and their teachings.

Although it may seem that the Smurfs get a disproportionate amount of hate, a good deal of it is all in good fun, and nearly every other chapter/faction with any popularity is mocked for some humorous OTT aspect of their fluff. GK are mary sues that hang out with space orangutans, SW are space puppies, BA are space vampires or twilight wannabes, DA are all repressed gays that afraid to come out of the closet, Eldar are space elves/elfdar, Tau are pathetically naive space communists, Necrons are terminators, Abaddon is Failbaddon and has no arms, half the chaos primarchs are whinny emogoths with daddy issues, etc. You get the picture. Most of it is tongue in cheek though, I know I've joked about all of the above and more, but its not like I really hate any of them. Its a game, don't take it so seriously.

Then again, there are those few people who take it WAY too seriously, and actually hate the smurfs or some other faction with a vitriolic passion, but most of them are trolls and don't get out much. I pity them, rather than get offended by them.

 pretre wrote:
And not past the first page before it got nasty. God I love these threads.

MY point is I don't like the fluff. Also the only kid who regularly plays Ultras is a cheating little so and so. So take my opinion with salt it is biased.

Not liking the fact that the Ultramarines have zero flaws or real human vulnerabilities =\= equal "disliking them because they lack a "dark" flaw".

If it came out tomorrow that Ultramarines were half-horse because Guilliman borked a mustang the night before Fulgrim kicked his ass, and they must hide this unnatural mutation and lust for horses from the Inquisition, people who dislike the Ultramarines aren't going to suddenly be like "yay Ultramarines".

Tall poppy syndrome.

Go back 20 years, replace every instance of "Ultramarines" with "Blood Angels", and today this thread would have the title "Why do people hate the Blood Angels?".

BlaxicanX wrote:
Not liking the fact that the Ultramarines have zero flaws or real human vulnerabilities =\= equal "disliking them because they lack a "dark" flaw".

Reading through all the posts...who ever said that? I think I'm the only one who said anything like it, but thats not what I said at all. I said "they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws," the first two are just examples of flaws that other chapters have and they could have had to make them more interesting. I never said they were the only reasons, and i even said the problem is no flaws. Of course its too late to change it now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Tall poppy syndrome.

Go back 20 years, replace every instance of "Ultramarines" with "Blood Angels", and today this thread would have the title "Why do people hate the Blood Angels?".

Man I love the internet... I can do just that (although I went back 10 years).

Not Blood Angels related, but I thought this was priceless:

From 1998 in a thread titled "GW looses(sic) at least 400 customers":

well GW has done it they have lost me and many others, we are boycotting their
moddles and we will use warzone, demonblade, enigma and home forges if we have
too. GW is threatening my freinds, and kicking me of aol, so we in return will
not buy their stuff. so this is what i figure, there is about 90 people i know
personaly around here that play, i would say that about 300 play in my area.
plus probably another 100+ that will be started by these people playing, i
figure gw will loose all these customers, by word of mouth we are all connected
by some person so GW you just lost alot of customers because the boycott will
be successful. hello warzone here i come. i always did like demonblade
SENTINALS better then stupid GW ones. since this is my last post i wish luck to
demonblade in this lawsuit crap. i would ecourage anybody else to participate
in this boycott, thankyou and good night.

BlaxicanX wrote:
then Manchu will be up in here, revoking my quick-reply privileges again

Speak my name and I will appear.

Even I did a thread on this topic way back when:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249758.page

From 1997:

> Space Wolves are the worst Space Marine chapter, (besides Blood Angels and
> Ultramarines) Dark Angels are better. Wolves are all pansys who start gak they
> can't handle.

Honestly if people just calmed down and chatted about it instead o arguing, we'd probably realize that most people don't disagree as much as they think they do.


It was actually shown in a study that insults will polarize people more than reasonable debates.

I grew up with the smurfs. It is the best nickname of any army. I just wish my armies had such a good nickname. I personally have no feelings other than like for most of the smurf stuff and think the codex is a reasonably well done one (fluff is a bit weak but the rules are pretty cool).

Alot of the "hate" is the normal internet callousness that anonymity causes in us all. The internet frees of of responsibility for what we say but this tends to cause a "freedom" from normal limits in what we would say both constructive and destructive.

 Manchu wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
then Manchu will be up in here, revoking my quick-reply privileges again

Speak my name and I will appear.

Even I did a thread on this topic way back when:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249758.page

lol 'For my 800th post...'

 ragingmunkyz wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Not liking the fact that the Ultramarines have zero flaws or real human vulnerabilities =\= equal "disliking them because they lack a "dark" flaw".

Reading through all the posts...who ever said that? I think I'm the only one who said anything like it, but thats not what I said at all. I said "they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws," the first two are just examples of flaws that other chapters have and they could have had to make them more interesting. I never said they were the only reasons, and i even said the problem is no flaws. Of course its too late to change it now.

You said that "People don't like that they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws, ". My response was basically "even if they had these things, people wouldn't like them".

 Melissia wrote:
It was actually shown in a study that insults will polarize people more than reasonable debates.

Was this a Ric Romero special report?

 Melissia wrote:
It was actually shown in a study that insults will polarize people more than reasonable debates.

Ah the Obvious Research Center. Where would we be without it?

ragingmunkyz wrote:Ultramarines see a bit more hate because of the spotlight GW likes to put on them, and because some of the fluff is so OTT, going out if its way to portray them as the shining, squeaky-clean, goodie two shoes marines. People don't like that they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws, and they really didn't like the idea that every other chapter would venerate Guilliman and his teachings above their own primarchs and their teachings.

The irony being that those genetic defects or dark secrets are not any actual flaws either, but what endeared other players to whatever army they have chosen. In most cases, those flaws are actually strengths in that they make someone fight better or just appear "more cool". In the same vein, I feel that it overshadows the basic aspects of this inhumanity that any and all Space Marines have, including the Ultras. As if the sacrifice made by these monastic warriors was somehow "one-upped" by making some of them also be werewolves or vampires on top of it.

Lastly, some also do not like the Ultras for being a stabilising influence that actually works with the Imperium and for a greater cause, rather than doing their own thing or even being just a step away from outright rebellion - the latter also regarded as "cool". Then again, this cooperative and knightly aspect is exactly why I like the Ultras, so maybe I am a bit biased myself.

As far as ridiculous stories are concerned, I've read a lot of fluff from certain other Chapters that was way beyond anything the Ultras accomplished, in some parts even threatening the cohesion of the setting.

[edit] lol @ ORC

 pretre wrote:
lol 'For my 800th post...'

And for my next trick, I'll explain why GK need to kill SoB to fight against Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
The irony being that those genetic defects or dark secrets are not any actual flaws either, but what endeared other players to whatever army they have chosen.

A thousand times yes!

This is what I see as the difference between seeing 40k as a "parallel universe" and seeing it as a sci-fi franchise. If you look at it as a parallel universe, with yourself as somehow "inside of it," you'd have to acknowledge that it would be hard to like the DA for the very reason that all in-universe values would point to their "dark secret" being genuinely undesirable. If you look at 40k as a sci-fi franchise (i.e., like a sane person would), you realize as Lynata has that these flaws are desirable traits. Put it another way, a Mary Sue can be flawed as long as the Mary Sue's "weakness" actually make her or him more powerful and appealing.

Too much fluff armor given by the writers i guess, although my respect for them went up after reading know no fear

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
It was actually shown in a study that insults will polarize people more than reasonable debates.

Ah the Obvious Research Center. Where would we be without it?

It's easy to dismiss it, but sometimes it needs to be said and kept in mind.

I'm not dismissing it at all. I'm saying it's common sense -- the most important kind of sense there is.

TBH, polarization is the only thing that makes all this discussion about SM possible. It's like the NFL. Is there really that big of a difference between the team you like and the team you don't like? There is if one team is awesome and the other team is utter gak!

So whenever you see a thread like this one, remember that insults made it possible.

The More You Know

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
The irony being that those genetic defects or dark secrets are not any actual flaws either, but what endeared other players to whatever army they have chosen.

A thousand times yes!

This is what I see as the difference between seeing 40k as a "parallel universe" and seeing it as a sci-fi franchise. If you look at it as a parallel universe, with yourself as somehow "inside of it," you'd have to acknowledge that it would be hard to like the DA for the very reason that all in-universe values would point to their "dark secret" being genuinely undesirable. If you look at 40k as a sci-fi franchise (i.e., like a sane person would), you realize as Lynata has that these flaws are desirable traits. Put it another way, a Mary Sue can be flawed as long as the Mary Sue's "weakness" actually make her or him more powerful and appealing.

Aww, but I haven't gotten to throw any insults yet. Can I Manchu, please? I promise I'll be gentle!



Jokes aside, I'm more annoyed by Chaos Marines than I am by Ultras. Go figure.

Ultras just kind of ... exist.

 Manchu wrote:

 pretre wrote:
lol 'For my 800th post...'

And for my next trick, I'll explain why GK need to kill SoB to fight against Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
The irony being that those genetic defects or dark secrets are not any actual flaws either, but what endeared other players to whatever army they have chosen.

A thousand times yes!

This is what I see as the difference between seeing 40k as a "parallel universe" and seeing it as a sci-fi franchise. If you look at it as a parallel universe, with yourself as somehow "inside of it," you'd have to acknowledge that it would be hard to like the DA for the very reason that all in-universe values would point to their "dark secret" being genuinely undesirable. If you look at 40k as a sci-fi franchise (i.e., like a sane person would), you realize as Lynata has that these flaws are desirable traits. Put it another way, a Mary Sue can be flawed as long as the Mary Sue's "weakness" actually make her or him more powerful and appealing.

Well said.

 Melissia wrote:
Aww, but I haven't gotten to throw any insults yet. Can I Manchu, please? I promise I'll be gentle!

As long as you're gentle. After all, the SW can't take much.

 Lynata wrote:
The irony being that those genetic defects or dark secrets are not any actual flaws either, but what endeared other players to whatever army they have chosen. In most cases, those flaws are actually strengths in that they make someone fight better or just appear "more cool".

Oh for sure, thats kind of the point I was making, it makes the other chapters more interesting by comparison. The smurfs just seem that much more bland when they're all super status quo, perfect, and holier-than-thou. People don't want space marines who always to the right thing for the good of the IoM and are better than everyone else, they want space marines that sometimes do the right thing, but then sometimes also do their own "renegade" thing or freak out and start eating people.

Because Grimdark.

BlaxicanX wrote:
My response was basically "even if they had these things, people wouldn't like them".

Oh well then that's just wrong. If they had been written to be more interesting instead from the start, people would be more interested in them. Without the whole "We're the ideal SMs and we're perfect in every way, and you wish your primarch was as good as ours, and we have the thickest plot armor" people would hate them less. The point is that then they probably wouldn't have been the poster-boys in the first place.

Keep in mind, I'm not even one of those people who actually hates them, I just find them to be a bit stale. As I said earlier, I'll make fun of any chapter or faction, because in some way they're ALL written with OTT fluff. It's kind of the nature of 40k, and sometimes its silly.

I quite like them. Their flaw, I suppose, is their rigid Codex adherence. Sooner or later they come up against something that needs a bit of winging it to win, and then lo and behold you're being chucked out of the chapter for widdling on Gulliman's memory.

Graham McNeill chucked out that idea in Chains of Command. Turns out they can be flexible and rigid at the same time. "Ladies, please."

The image of the Ultras depends on McNeill ?

I'd buy the idea their image may benefit or suffer from their HH-stories.
The current time line however, needs a rigid exorcism of specific not so well done fluff.
Should be easy, 6th ed seems on a good course..

 Manchu wrote:
Graham McNeill chucked out that idea in Chains of Command. Turns out they can be flexible and rigid at the same time. "Ladies, please."

Not read that one, truth be told. How odd that they suddenly changed...

 Fotherington-Thomas wrote:
I quite like them. Their flaw, I suppose, is their rigid Codex adherence. Sooner or later they come up against something that needs a bit of winging it to win, and then lo and behold you're being chucked out of the chapter for widdling on Gulliman's memory.

And that's the ticket -they don't have a direct physical flaw, they have a psychological flaw which is a result of their heritage and the psycho-conditioning they receive. Arrogance, inflated opinions of themself, overconfidence. The Codex can cover most of i but once something extraordinary comes along they have a problem. Calgar deciding to start the brand new Tyranid Hunter speciality was very controversial - if he didn't have the staus of Guilliman's Heir there might very well have been a revolt in the Chapter and successors. It was a serious breach against the Codex.

Wolves have flaws, Blood Angels have flaws, Dark Angels have secrets... The children of Guilliman have arrogance to work against.

 ragingmunkyz wrote:

Oh well then that's just wrong. If they had been written to be more interesting instead from the start,people would be more interested in them.

First off, that's tautological. Second off, "flaws" and "dark secrets" =\= "more interesting". Like I said, if Games Workshop revealed tomorrow that Ultramarines were half-horse and they've gone through great lengths to hide their half-horse mutations from the Inquisition, people who don't like Ultramarines wouldn't suddenly be like "omg, Ultramarines are awesome!"

BlaxicanX wrote:
First off, that's tautological. Second off, "flaws" and "dark secrets" =\= "more interesting". Like I said, if Games Workshop revealed tomorrow that Ultramarines were half-horse and they've gone through great lengths to hide their half-horse mutations from the Inquisition, people who don't like Ultramarines wouldn't suddenly be like "omg, Ultramarines are awesome!"

First off, it isn't tautological. Just because something is interesting, doesn't mean people will be interested, because interest is subjective. I asserted that if smurfs were written better, people would have been more likely to care about them. Again, those are simply examples, and on their own they don't equal interesting, but given the proper context, they can and do. A dark secret, for example, is a tropes which can be used to create conflict, and conflict is at the heart of all good stories. Character flaws can add depth and humanity, depth makes a story more engaging and humanity makes it more relatable. Tragic flaws and the path to redemption or downfall are classic writing elements, and great catalysts. I could go into more detail but I don't feel like teaching you creative writing 101. Suffice it to say, many people feel that Ultrasmurfs in the fluff are rather one dimensional and bland, so they don't particularly care for them.

Secondly, thats both a straw man and reductio ad absurdum at the same time, so nice job on the two for one I guess? I never said or suggested that if they changed the Ultramarine fluff tomorrow, people would magically care. I specifically said if they had a better/different backstory from the beginning, people might have liked them more to begin with. Of course, it wouldn't make a difference in the case of your asinine suggestion, and its a bit late for a makeover now anyhow. All of that aside, I never presented an uninteresting background as the only reason for the hate, and I can see its pointless to continue responding to your myriad logical fallacies.

Good day, sir.

 Melissia wrote:
Oh god this thread again.

Most people don't really hate the Ultramarines. They're just annoyed at how they're the poster boys, oftentimes being poster-boys to the point of self-parody.

End discussion.

Sort of like how I totally loath ALL space marines for all their overly promoted fuss.




*with the exception of the Mentor Legion, they are great.

It come from 3 things.

1) They are the face of the Space Marines. This isnt necessarly a problem except for the fact GW over uses them. Any picture and any event of a SM victory is always the UMs. Again, not a huge problem but it can annoy people if over done.

2) They are very vanilla, nothing too unqiue about them. This is done as a guide for new players to find and develop a chapter that isnt weird as that can annoy players. This leads to an annoyance that they are "boring"

3) Fluff is overdone. There is a lot of pride players have for the other SM chapters. The UM fluff is very "the ultramarines are the greatest ever with the greatest warriors ever." This actually pisses people off as again, they may prefer other chapters and dont like the fact that fluff says that their prefered chapter is an inferior chapter.

They don't. People are pretty ambivalent about them, with a narrow margin leaning towards a positive opinion. And as a warning to the OP, after I posted the Objective Ultramarine Hate Thread, I was spammed by a few Ultramarines fans who threatened me, berated me, and promised to spam my thread until the mods locked it. (Which they then proceeded to do.) Just a warning that the same guys may come after your thread.

I just hate the sight of them everywhere: codex, posters and boring army choices (No offense to Ultramarine players). My self I believe its time for a change in poster boys maybe Space Wolves or Dark Angels.

The Space Wolves are only the poster boys for "First Founding has its Privileges".

Any other Chapter from any other Founding that did what the Space Wolves have done would find it and its homeworld purged from the Galaxy, first by virus bombing, then cyclonic torpedo, and then that co-ordinate in space would be sown with anti-matter so that nothing could ever grow there again.

And I say that as someone who actually *likes* the Space Wolves.

Personally, I initially went with the Dark Angels more on the basis of high-tech and Neon-colored armor seemed incongruous to me.
So I was left with Dark Angels who wore dark green armor.

I know I jest about the Ultrasmurfs. About how they seem to always be duped or on the other side of the galaxy when some major event takes place within the Imperium. My favorite joke is that this is due to the Ultra-press... No matter if the Smurfs are incompetent or idiots, there is always the Ultra-press to blame it on others or excuse it away so that the Ultrasmurfs will always be put in a positive light...

The only point of contention is the blanket statements that every marine aspires to be an Ultramarine causes a resentment.

Why do people hate the Ultramarines?

Because they're jealous.

GO TRUE BLUE!

Tiberius Atellus wrote:
After joining Dakka I see alot of Ultramarine hate calling them Smurfs and the like. Where does all that come from? For the record i'm not that into the Ultramarines, my favorite chapters are the Grey Knights and Black Templars.

Because they seem like arrogant douch-bags. Granted that's what i garner from the fluff, but other than that they seem pretty high and mighty since all the chapters look to them and their primarch wrote the Codex Astartes. My response is usually, "Good for you, hey wait, where's your wargear?" They then say, "What the...DAMN BLOOD *cough*magpies*cough* RAVENS!!!"

 pretre wrote:
Not Blood Angels related, but I thought this was priceless:

You really do like finding new ways to rub gak in the faces of anyone who criticises GW, don't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
And for my next trick, I'll explain why GK need to kill SoB to fight against Chaos.

And after that he'll formulate an elaborate reason why Dragio is an allegory for man's suffering and the futility of fighting Chaos when really it's just a badly written piece of gakky fan-fiction.

How is showing that GW hate is timeless rubbing gak in anyone's face?

I personally think the hatred of the Ultramarines are down to the fans. It's like with Manchester United. For every good Ultramarine-fan you will meet 10 bad ones. Its just a numbers-game. Also it doesn't help that they are written as more Mary Sueish than the man who should be the ultimate Mary Sue, the Emperor.

To be honest, the Emperor is depicted as kind of a dick in the HH series.

I wonder if, after 6th drops, people will hate Ultras less. Because, to be frank, some of the 5th edition fluff really must set non-Ultra's teeth on edge.

As someone who started with an Ultramarine army, even I rolled my eyes at "Such divergent Chapters play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of the Ultramarines, and all those who follow their example" in Codex - Space Marines. FFS, guys.



My pick for 6th edition's Space Marines cover boys, and hate targets, are... let me think... Lamenters. You read it here first.

Bah the Lamenters. The Emperor's Weeping-ladies. I still can't believe that GW authorized a chapter named after women who scratch their cheeks and weep during funerals.

Tiberius Atellus wrote:
After joining Dakka I see alot of Ultramarine hate calling them Smurfs and the like. Where does all that come from? For the record i'm not that into the Ultramarines, my favorite chapters are the Grey Knights and Black Templars.

Because, at the end of the day, for all their hatred, for all their multi-paragraph posts spewing vitriol and rage at the boys in blue, these posters, know one fact... No matter their accomplishments, they can never be Ultramarines.

Which is a good thing, we don't need any ultramarines here anyway.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And after that he'll formulate an elaborate reason why Dragio is an allegory for man's suffering and the futility of fighting Chaos when really it's just a badly written piece of gakky fan-fiction.

Please don't get the Ward apologists started...

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Tiberius Atellus wrote:
After joining Dakka I see alot of Ultramarine hate calling them Smurfs and the like. Where does all that come from? For the record i'm not that into the Ultramarines, my favorite chapters are the Grey Knights and Black Templars.

Because, at the end of the day, for all their hatred, for all their multi-paragraph posts spewing vitriol and rage at the boys in blue, these posters, know one fact... No matter their accomplishments, they can never be Ultramarines.

I literally lol'ed. Exalted.

I don't hate Ultramarines, I just don't particularly like them and would've liked a bit more fluff about other chapters in the Space Marine Codex (Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc). I also feel that the way some of the background information is worded makes it seem like even venerable, storied chapters like the aforementioned Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, etc are inferior to Ultramarines and they know they are.

Again, it's not really hate, more like... a dismissive hand-wave accompanied by a "pfft".

I used to be more indifferent towards the Ultramarines (I have always liked Torias Telion since I first read about him though, for some reason), and apparently used to actively dislike them (I truly can not recall this, but Beavis swears this is true), but recent stories and characters have made me somewhat fond of them. The Space Marine game helped, with the character of Captain Titus, Know No Fear had some problems, but I really liked its portrayal of the Ultramarines as a legion.

On the whole, they're still not nearly my favorite, but there are reasons to like them.

As presented in the current codex though? Meh.

What do I swear is true?

That I used to hate the Ultramarines.

I dislike them because their colour scheme looks bland to me and because their fluff is generic and unappealing in my opinion.

I'm not presuming you to hate the Ultramarines. Infact as I earlier mentioned I think much of the reason for the hatred is more the fans of the Ultramarines than the Ultramarines themselves.

 ragingmunkyz wrote:

First off, it isn't tautological.

"More people would find Ultramarines interesting if they were written in a more interesting way" is the definition of tautology.

smurfs were written better, people would have been more likely to care about them.

Duh. lol

Again, those are simply examples, and on their own they don't equal interesting, but given the proper context, they can and do. A dark secret, for example, is a tropes which can be used to create conflict, and conflict is at the heart of all good stories. Character flaws can add depth and humanity, depth makes a story more engaging and humanity makes it more relatable. Tragic flaws and the path to redemption or downfall are classic writing elements, and great catalysts. I could go into more detail but I don't feel like teaching you creative writing 101. Suffice it to say, many people feel that Ultrasmurfs in the fluff are rather one dimensional and bland, so they don't particularly care for them.

And my point is that making them horse-fethers wouldn't make then any less bland or one-dimensional.

In general principal I agree that the problem with Ultramarines is that they're bland as gak- that's certainly why I yawn at them. However, a problem arises when Ultramarine apologists bring up other chapters, namely the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Templars and Dark Angels, and attempt to rationalize that the reason why people dislike the Ultramarines is because they're emo's who don't like the fact that Ultramarines lack a gimmick (which is what a "dark secret", "flaw" is). I would really consider that a strawman of the real reason many dislike the Ultramarines.

Secondly, thats both a straw man and reductio ad absurdum at the same time, so nice job on the two for one I guess? I never said or suggested that if they changed the Ultramarine fluff tomorrow, people would magically care. I specifically said if they had a better/different backstory from the beginning, people might have liked them more to begin with. Of course, it wouldn't make a difference in the case of your asinine suggestion, and its a bit late for a makeover now anyhow. All of that aside, I never presented an uninteresting background as the only reason for the hate, and I can see its pointless to continue responding to your myriad logical fallacies.

You don't know what tautological means. I'm more than dubious about your knowledge of fallacies.

 Melissia wrote:


Ultras just kind of ... exist.

+1 and /thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ragingmunkyz wrote:
Ultramarines see a bit more hate because of the spotlight GW likes to put on them, and because some of the fluff is so OTT, going out if its way to portray them as the shining, squeaky-clean, goodie two shoes marines. People don't like that they don't have a genetic defect, a dark secret, or seemingly any flaws, and they really didn't like the idea that every other chapter would venerate Guilliman and his teachings above their own primarchs and their teachings.

Although it may seem that the Smurfs get a disproportionate amount of hate, a good deal of it is all in good fun, and nearly every other chapter/faction with any popularity is mocked for some humorous OTT aspect of their fluff. GK are mary sues that hang out with space orangutans, SW are space puppies, BA are space vampires or twilight wannabes, DA are all repressed gays that afraid to come out of the closet, Eldar are space elves/elfdar, Tau are pathetically naive space communists, Necrons are terminators, Abaddon is Failbaddon and has no arms, half the chaos primarchs are whinny emogoths with daddy issues, etc. You get the picture. Most of it is tongue in cheek though, I know I've joked about all of the above and more, but its not like I really hate any of them. Its a game, don't take it so seriously.

Then again, there are those few people who take it WAY too seriously, and actually hate the smurfs or some other faction with a vitriolic passion, but most of them are trolls and don't get out much. I pity them, rather than get offended by them.

Woooo maestro - you nailed it, hats down to you Sir !!!
I don't like BA and I simply ignore them - to spit on them in every thread is beneath me, but sometimes when people are insulting "my puppies" I tend to lose control and lower myself to their level....
Weaknes in me which will be purged

I think I dislike them because there are so many poorly painted Ultramarine models out there! Because it's usually the first scheme most beginners start with, before they've learned how to paint well. At least here where I live. I don't mean to sound elitist, we've all sucked at painting once. They're all over eBay, and looking through all of my nerd friends' 40k boxes I find them! "Gah, they're everywhere!"
I think it's a tricky color scheme, but when it's done right it looks awesome.

Now my distaste has spread to all loyalist chapters. It would actually be refreshing to play against Ultramarines now, instead of endless waves of SW and GK that the kids seem to like nowadays.

Like a few people have said, it's more the newest codex.
The stories can be very over done, I tend to ignore the more outrageous ones, but the way people hate them for being the focus of C:SM is silly. In 2nd it was still C:UM, it still is, in all but name, and they deserve the focus. You don't get Flesh Tearers players complaining that it's called Codex: Blood Angels.
As for badly done Ultramarines armies, yes I hate them too, but everyone has to start somewhere, and a well done Ultramarines army with fluffy builds and models with character, will be one of the most unique armies you'll see.
Yes, you will see lots of Ultramarine armies, but most of these are blue Vanilla. A real Ultramarines army is rarely seen and quite a sight.

 captain collius wrote:
Because of the Fluff ward wrote.

That's actually just more recently.

People always hated the Ultramarines. Just before it was because they were "poster boys" or "boring".

Codex: Ultramarines, and it's offspring Codex: Space Marines, always lacked fancy, sparkly units like the other offshoot codex books for the Space Wolves or Blood Angels. Since it was perceived as the weakest of the SM codex books, players rebelled against the idea that the Ultramarines could be "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" like they were written about as.

People are also very poor literary critics, lol. They think that having some cartoony trope like being ragey vampires, or brooding emo guys in bathrobes give other chapters "depth" and that the Ultramarines are bad and have no flaws simply because they're just the sort of middle of the road "Normal Marines", All Space Marines, by their very nature, are pretty heavily flawed. They're sociopathic, heavily indoctrinated murder machines devoid of all but the most basic shreds of empathy for their fellow man and live a life devoted entirely to warfare, absent of any true joy or experience, and serve almost unquestioningly despite the often extreme severity of their orders. Giving them a "dark secret", or some kind of gene seed flaw is just a plot hook to tie them into some other cultural reference (Vikings, or Crusaders, or Vampires, etc) as a marketing ploy. It's not actually about making them any more interesting or complex. I have a quiet laugh every time I read somebody's high school level critical analysis of the Ultramarines "character".


Ultimately, what it comes down to is some kind of bizarre plastic toy soldier envy. Back in the long long ago of 2nd Edition, there was a Big Four. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines. Games Workshop chose the Ultramarines as the flagship chapter for the Space Marine product line. Why did they do this? Because the Ultramarines needed very little extra explanation. They were big guys in big armor with big guns. If you knew what a real world Marine was, and you imagined them 40,000 years in the future, that's more or less what an Ultramarine looks like. No need to explain fangs, or excessive body hair, or hoodie bathrobes. The funny part is, the Ultramarines just replaced the Blood Angels in this role.

Ever since then, there's been this sort of subdued, but potent hatred because Games Workshop didn't pick their favorite color of Space Marines.


Then, you have a different breed of Ultramarines haters. That of the "We're confused and don't realize Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition is actually just Codex: Ultramarines version 4.0"

These guys have picked another color of Generic Marines, and feel like their guys don't get an even shake. They don't understand that Codex: Space Marines has always been Codex Ultramarines. They don't remember, or just ignore, that in every single Codex: Space Marines, the painting guide has been for Ultramarines, and the special characters predominantly Ultramarines. They don't realize that the name of the Codex book series was changed from Codex: Ultramarines because it was easier to market the book that way since it was less confusing to new players how to play as "Regular Space Marines". This group of players feel like Codex: Space Marines should represent a larger array of Space Marine chapters. Theirs, to be specific. They usually can't offer an explanation as to why the Ultramarines don't deserve their own codex and the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars do, but reasoning and rationality has never been a part of this equation.

The have the anti-underdog hate. People like underdog's, but ultramarines always have to win in the fluff.

Evileyes wrote:
The have the anti-underdog hate. People like underdog's, but ultramarines always have to win in the fluff.

You haven't read too much of the fluff have you?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Evileyes wrote:
The have the anti-underdog hate. People like underdog's, but ultramarines always have to win in the fluff.

You haven't read too much of the fluff have you?

Enough to say I have never read a fluff passage where the ultramarine's lost. Even in other codex's xD

Then the answer is "No", you haven't read much of the fluff.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Then the answer is "No", you haven't read much of the fluff.

I've read a lot. But it's always ultramarines killing an eldar avatar, ultramarines slaughtering orks, ultramarines fending off tyranids. I've yet to read a fluffpiece where they lose. That isn't an indication that I have not read fluff, it's an indication that they seem to win an awful lot more than most forces.

Which is understandable, seeing as how they are pretty much the face of 40k. But it doesn't change the fact it makes them the anti-underdog's.

People now hating on the Ultramarines? News to me :l

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And after that he'll formulate an elaborate reason why Dragio is an allegory for man's suffering and the futility of fighting Chaos ...

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Please don't get the Ward apologists started...

Don't tempt me!

They call it the Nerd Hierarchy in other places.

By ridiculing and looking down on a hobby aspect virtually identical to their own, those deep-down uncomfortable with their hobby, too immature to face up to it and admit it to their peers and friends, can feel "more mature" about themselves and their time in the hobby by the self-delusion of collecting the "superior" plastic toys and reading the "superior" plastic-toy-background-fluff. "

I have the feeling the kind of degenerates that like either the eldar or dark eldar,

what sort of person would like Chaos Marines?

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

They call it the Nerd Hierarchy in other places.

By ridiculing and looking down on a hobby aspect virtually identical to their own, those deep-down uncomfortable with their hobby, too immature to face up to it and admit it to their peers and friends, can feel "more mature" about themselves and their time in the hobby by the self-delusion of collecting the "superior" plastic toys and reading the "superior" plastic-toy-background-fluff. "

I have the feeling the kind of degenerates that like either the eldar or dark eldar,

what sort of person would like Chaos Marines?

Someone who likes the aesthetic of the line? Not everyone wants their character or army to be a bunch of lawful good shining armor space paladins.

Veteran sergeant is as always half-right. The Ultras has always been the posterboys of boring. That's the correct phrasing of his sentence.

From what I have seen...The internet HATES the ultras...but out in the real world no one seems to mind.

Pfft, Ultramarines are old news. The Dark Angels are the new poster boys: First codex release (this is a bad thing), Dark Vengeance Box Set, six new units in a space marine codex (unprecedented, although four not entirely useful) Novelisations, etc. When's the last time you saw an Ultramarine release by GW? Honour Guard five years ago? They clearly are reacting to the blandness of it all and have chucked in the blue for the black, bone and green .

Ultraborings: A case in chapter envy? No, I don't think so, it's just the fact that they are somewhat righteous paragons in a grimdark universe- and utterly bland as a result. Bland armies appeal to bland personalities, we surmise. Whether this is true I can't say, but it's possible to come round to liking them via fluff, as is anything well written I suppose.

I do think the whole Dark Angels premise is fundamentally silly, however. Their Dark Secret isn't really all that dark or terrible- in an age where everybody was turning traitor, staying loyal (and beating the traitors) shouldn't have to be such a big deal- it does seem like 10,000 years of pointless secrecy (although I guess that's part of the point.) They need to have a deeper, darker secret.

Honour Guard came out way longer than 5 years ago. 2008 was Chronus and Telion for UM figures.

And in all recent fluff, UM have been far from bland, they're recovering from losses, trying to defend the Eastern Fringe, waging general war, same as every other Chapter's story, just a different arm of the Milky Way.

I'm more than happy for the DA to be the new posterboys though, it was BA in 2nd, we had 3rd-5th, you can have 6th, maybe we'll lose some haters and pass them on to you guys. From other forums though, even Dakka to some extent, UM players seem to be able to take hate against their chapter far better than most other fanboys. So we'll see who's laughing soon.
Personally, I find the DA boring, they're just a little dull, they're too dark and brooding, it's a little comical at times.

I hate all space marines not just ultrasmurfs

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

And in all recent fluff, UM have been far from bland...

... same as every other Chapter's story

Therein lies the problem...






All in all, the UM's are just the most boring, obvious chapter out there. There's just nothing really to make them interesting.

Much could be made of their rather hypocritical managing of an empire within an empire and vast control over successor chapters and Imperial Guard/PDF units of the Ultramar region in violation of the intent and letter of the Codex: Astartes, but that irony and hypocrisy is never addressed and such things merely used to show how Ultra the Ultramarines are instead.

I hate them mainly because of their more recent fluff, they went from being the saviors of the Imperium to a bunch of handwringing mary sues, and usually not hand wringing about anything important like if they should virus bomb an entire world because of one cult but because someone broke the codex (Uriel Ventris).

As an Iron Warrior Warsmith said: what great sin does it take for an Ultramarine to be exiled, did you turn left instead of right during a parade or did you forget to say you prayers in the morning.

To me the ultras are like that guy who has to top everyone elses story so a salamander guy will say "i slew the ork warboss and won the battle to which the smurf guy will reply " do you remember the time i tamed a carnifex stopped the 12th black crusade and bitch slapped Abaddon with my wabg all in 1 afternoon?"
anyway makes no difference to me i dislike all spacemarines
Chaos forever

I have to admit I really like the Ultramarines. They're sort of a guilty pleasure of mine. I'm big on fluff, that goes a long way into the armies I like and want to play.

Wardian fluff has kind of soured me on them, and I would really like to see someone, anyone, else (if there is some recently, please let me know) take over and at least try to move away from fluff worse than a poetry book written by a middle schooler. I think that's what really keeps me from actually building any. I'd like to do a vanilla army, and be able to compare/contrast between them and my SW.

Because of the fluff issues, I've looked to other chapters and found some I like, that have decent, if not the most in depth, fluff. At least some that doesn't consist of every one killing themselves simply because they can't be part of the chapter. I imagine He Who Shall Not Be Named embittered many towards the Ultramarines, but mostly I think people just get carried away.

Indifferent to the Ultramarines. Not my favorite... not my least favorite. Just another chapter.

But I can see why people would hate. They're just too... perfect.

 Traejun wrote:
Indifferent to the Ultramarines. Not my favorite... not my least favorite. Just another chapter.

This is my opinion too...and those " UM are the best " lines (which degrade other chapters) need to be ignored...simple

I like the Ultramarines I have seen Dark Angels being savaged as well.

I wasn't wild about their color scheme, their punny name, or their "We're Scottish Romans!" fluff, but they started to grow on me after Know No Fear.

2 words...poster boys

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Traejun wrote:
Indifferent to the Ultramarines. Not my favorite... not my least favorite. Just another chapter.

This is my opinion too...and those " UM are the best " lines (which degrade other chapters) need to be ignored...simple

What's hilarious is the 'Ultramarines are the best' stuff comes right from Rick Priestley in the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex. Ward's just repeating bad old fluff.

^ Ultra - Marines....Funny, even in that CGI movie the starting line was: "...and the best of them are....UM"

Well as a friend called em: "Movie-marines" they are basically the "goody-goody two shoes perfect space marine" kind of deal, at least in the games i have seen so far.

And they happen to beat a tyranid fleet, a orc fleet, and a few other races ( by some: at the same time ) and seemly they have a wardsave of 1+ on any character that doesnt have a helmet.

I guess thats where the msot of the hate come from.

Personally: just another target to shoot down or eat.

They don't have all the tricky undercosted garbage that crutch up the niche chapters.

Pretty much what a few others have said; its that they're pushed down our throats as the 'model' chapter, when they have nothing in particular that makes them special....
They're just warriors, and that's it, whilst other chapters have something else to go with being warriors. Space Wolves are warriors and viking werewolves, Blood Angels are vampire angels, Dark Angels are ultra secretive monks etc.

Plus, I just don't like blue, but that's a pretty weak reason, but it's still a reason...

Mhm how to make a godlike chapter even more godlike... *thinks* ohh i know! *writes random codex*



Excellent.

Reason? It was their Primarch's brilliant idea to minimize the size of the Adeptus Astartes Legions and turn them into Chapters. bs!

 tundrafrog1124 wrote:
Reason? It was their Primarch's brilliant idea to minimize the size of the Adeptus Astartes Legions and turn them into Chapters. bs!

This idea plainly worked. There hasn't been an Astartes insurrection on nearly the same scale as the Horus Heresy in ten thousand years. It took like three hundred for half the Legions to rebel.


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 beej138 wrote:
Pretty much what a few others have said; its that they're pushed down our throats as the 'model' chapter, when they have nothing in particular that makes them special....
They're just warriors, and that's it, whilst other chapters have something else to go with being warriors. Space Wolves are warriors and viking werewolves, Blood Angels are vampire angels, Dark Angels are ultra secretive monks etc.

Plus, I just don't like blue, but that's a pretty weak reason, but it's still a reason...

So because they're not special snowflakes, lol?

You know, the Ultramarines are the "model" chapter because they don't have crippling genetic flaws that render them insane, nigh-mindless killers (Space Wolves, Blood Angels), or crippling paranoia that has made them abandon their duties to the Imperium to fulfill their own secret agenda (Dark Angels). In the case of the Space Wolves, they have also subverted Imperial authority on many occasions, and actually started a war with the Inquisition. So yeah, lacking the severe baggage of the chapters you named, baggage that is often a hindrance, I can really see why the Ultramarines are looked at as the "model" chapter.

You say baggage, I say balls to stand up for themselves. TO MAY TO, TO MAH TO.

I would hardly call the potential side effects of the Canus Helix on the weak a crippling side effect. If anything, it avoids letting the crippling, undeserved weaklings through. Given the prevalence of such...quirks...of the various Gene Seeds, including ones believed to be from Guilleman, I doubt the Ultramarines are free of them, just hide them better. The Space Wolves are too bad ass to have to worry about it, and every one knows it. The Blood Angels well...that's just creepy.

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
You say baggage, I say balls to stand up for themselves. TO MAY TO, TO MAH TO.

Is that why 90%+ marine chapters conform to the Ultramarine Primarchs' vision?

To-ma-to.

It IS easier to follow the herd after all. Safer since the Inquisition is scaaaaary.

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
It IS easier to follow the herd after all. Safer since the Inquisition is scaaaaary.

Considering the Inquisition has killed off several chapters of the Space Marines due to heretical leanings (As in, not worshipping the Emporer Properly) . The fact they haven't culled the worthless monsters of SW already is a bit off. Course then again, the space puppies are a bit "special".

Damn right. So special we've schooled the Inquisition. Using just a single Great Company...

Saying we've been spared because we're not worth it, is like having a bigger kid push you off the swing and comforting yourself by trying to convince yourself that you were done swinging anyway.

It's basically because they are the poster boy's. Therefore, despite there being hundred's of cool chapters and armies out there, the ultramarines seem to get an undue amount of attention in both the fluff, and in other GW products. The game space marine is a good example, there are a ton of cool chapter's of space marines, but as usual, you end up being an ultramarine. Those, and the blood raven's, are the only two that seem to exist in videogame terms.

It's also got the opposite of the underdog effect. Everyone enjoy's rooting for the underdog in a fight, and ultramarines have been written as the opposite of an underdog, they almost always "win". That isn't fun to watch. It's always awesome to see a little guy win a fight against a huge guy if provoked, but it's not as fun to watch the huge guy just pummel everyone without breaking a sweat, and that's what the ultramarines tend to come across like.

While I do like the Ultramarines, the above makes the point. I think people can't relate as well to them, because of the apparent ease and righteous arrogance with which they succeed. We all respect a person or group that has suffered significantly, fought tooth and nail to earn their success. Not that the Ultramarines haven't deserved it, they just don't seem to have worked as hard.

A common statement seems to be the argument of the Ultramarines position as 'poster boys.' This was not always the case. Previously the Blood Angels and Crimson Fists were very much the 'poster boy' for 40k, but that hate doesn't follow them. The Rogue Trader book featured the Crimson Fists last stand as their cover, as did the 3rd? edition codex for Space Marines. A fair amount of the images for Space Marines are Crimson Fists. The old Space Hulk computer game was Blood Angels, as was the 2nd Space Hulk game. One of the original boxed starter sets was Blood Angels and Orks. So I question the 'poster boy' attitude unless people are jumping on the band wagon very late.

If it's about Fluff, the Ultramarines are painted as better than everyone? Mephiston shrugs off the Black Rage and gets heralded as the heir to Sanguinius. I think that rates as pretty over the top, and that's been around since 2nd edition. Looking at books there are a great number of books on Blood Angels, and Space Wolves. In fact I think one of their first books released back in the day was a Space Wolves book, so they got the literary lime light first.

And lastly the 'they always win.' If you read the history of the Ultramarines and the history of say the Blood Angels, the Blood Angels win a LOT more. The Ultramarines lost their homeworld and their 1st company and had to cry to the Blood Angels for help. Facts are being picked and chosen to come to a conclusion against one group without fulling taking into account the full scope of things.

Just saying...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Considering the Inquisition has killed off several chapters of the Space Marines due to heretical leanings (As in, not worshipping the Emporer Properly) . The fact they haven't culled the worthless monsters of SW already is a bit off. Course then again, the space puppies are a bit "special".

If I remember correctly, the majority of Space Marines don't worship the Emperor at all.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Considering the Inquisition has killed off several chapters of the Space Marines due to heretical leanings (As in, not worshipping the Emporer Properly) . The fact they haven't culled the worthless monsters of SW already is a bit off. Course then again, the space puppies are a bit "special".

If I remember correctly, the majority of Space Marines don't worship the Emperor at all.

Yes, but one Inquisitor caught a space marine group that venerated the Emporer in a slightly odd way, and eventually got out to cause them to declare heresy on said group (Can't remember name, sorry about it)

It's mostly that they're generic, they need things that make then unique. The Tyranid wars thing is one such thing and is great. I also liked the old fluff where other chapters accused them of standing by the side and waiting out the heresy.
Or that the other primcarchs felt that guilliman took over after the heresy (I'm sure the idea hadn't even occurred to guilliman).

I like the ultras and guilliman as those people who does things their way and never even considered other may have another opinions...

I hate the ultras cause most of that got shifted to The lion and the dark angels in favour of making Guilliman and the ultras more flawless.

 TheDungen wrote:
It's mostly that they're generic, they need things that make then unique. The Tyranid wars thing is one such thing and is great. I also liked the old fluff where other chapters accused them of standing by the side and waiting out the heresy.
Or that the other primcarchs felt that guilliman took over after the heresy (I'm sure the idea hadn't even occurred to guilliman).

I like the ultras and guilliman as those people who does things their way and never even considered other may have another opinions...

I hate the ultras cause most of that got shifted to The lion and the dark angels in favour of making Guilliman and the ultras more flawless.

Actually as odd at it sounds, Deathwatch gives them a major issue.

Pride.

They are prideful, they believe they need to lead. That at times the Book of Guilliman outweights all other tactical decisions. That the blood angels do not know how to fight. That the Space Wolves would only botch the issue.

When they have their issue in Deathwatch (the RPG), they actually take control as team leader, and make all the others WORSE at what they are currently doing, because his pride will not allow him to stand down to let another deal with it. And if they do not gain the Team Leader Status, they actually start performing very badly as resentment runs through them.

They have no flaws, but those that they bring upon themselves. I thought it was pretty neat.

They're so dull that their empire is named after a Gas Station Franchise

I think Ultras are more of a standing joke than an actual object of hatred.

Hospy wrote:
I'm hazy on this point, but another point of contention is that the Ultramarines didn't exactly do a whole lot during the Horus Heresy compared to other legions, yet Gulliman somehow ends up dictating to others how they should run their outfits.

Sounds a bit like the French at the Treaty of Versaille .

In terms of the whole poste rboy thing, I don't think any army should be a poster boy. Its frustrating that almost all new comers (kids or not) get pushed towards Marine armies. The starter boxes for instance as far as i'm aware always include marines. But not just that, the Marines horrendously outmatch the opposing force. It would be nice to see the more people playing some of the other armies.

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
Damn right. So special we've schooled the Inquisition. Using just a single Great Company...

Saying we've been spared because we're not worth it, is like having a bigger kid push you off the swing and comforting yourself by trying to convince yourself that you were done swinging anyway.

While I may disagree with some of your statements, I love the way that you use the Royal we, as if you actually are a Space Wolf.

I'm not taking the piss either.. I wish I could get as excited about the hobby at 33 as I did as a lad.

You need to! I turn 30 this year! Play SW, get excited! Wooooo!

Seriously, I love this hobby, everything about it, even the Ultramarines. Just wish I got to play more often! Maybe I'll do up some Ultramarines as allies. Look at it like they need supplemental training from the SW, so they can learn what being a Space Marine is all about. FOR RUSS!

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
You need to! I turn 30 this year! Play SW, get excited! Wooooo!

Seriously, I love this hobby, everything about it, even the Ultramarines. Just wish I got to play more often! Maybe I'll do up some Ultramarines as allies. Look at it like they need supplemental training from the SW, so they can learn what being a Space Marine is all about. FOR RUSS!

Hah. I admire your youthful exuberance.

I do love the background though, more so than the game I think. I have probably spent far more hours immersed in the books than playing the games, and I am a big fan of the Ultramarines for their stoic determination and their moral fiber, I also think Gulliman is the best primarch because along with Sanguinius he seems like the only genuinely pleasant bloke...

But thats a whole nother thread right?

Youthful exuberance

I'm also really digging the background. Just getting started though with SW and a bit if the HH stuff. What are some good reads for Ultramarine lore?

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
Youthful exuberance

I'm also really digging the background. Just getting started though with SW and a bit if the HH stuff. What are some good reads for Ultramarine lore?

Try Know No Fear, a HH book.

There is one detail that I take issue with, but it is unrelated to the portrayal of the Ultramarines, which I really liked.

Also, I too prefer the background to the game itself.

I assume the HH books are intended to be read chronologically, or is that not so?

Not necessarily, no. Know No Fear is fairly standalone.

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
I assume the HH books are intended to be read chronologically, or is that not so?

Yes and No...You can read it standalone, but trust me, first get a glimpse on first five (or six???) books - It's well worth to know characters which are introduced....
IMHO only thing pissed me in KNF is that are so many cardboard characters (UM )....And a lot of them get gaked....

P.S. IMHO Absolutely read the first triology before reading ANY others...

That's been the plan so far. Granted, I can't speak on many of the books but so far many characters seem very distant and one dimensional in the BL books. I imagine that wouldn't do much for public opinion of the Ultramarines.

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
That's been the plan so far. Granted, I can't speak on many of the books but so far many characters seem very distant and one dimensional in the BL books. I imagine that wouldn't do much for public opinion of the Ultramarines.

Guilliman was an edgy coolguy though.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Guilliman was an edgy coolguy though.

Yep...Lorgar with his emo outbursts was cool too...
Funny thing : UM nbr 23441. with a hard remembering name died;
ME:*confused face* Who the hell was that guy, and why did author named him?

Also, cool thing was that the whole book was writen in present tense...

 Void__Dragon wrote:
(Space Wolves, Blood Angels), or crippling paranoia that has made them abandon their duties to the Imperium to fulfill their own secret agenda (Dark Angels).

I'm laughing, not 'cause this sentence have sense, but 'cause is clearly written by a hater.
SW and BA mindless? Ah! Please, SW Codex: "Though they appear like barbarians, the Wolves are far from it." Russ was a great tactician. Not good as, IDK, Horus or Perturabo, but he wasn't mindless like YOU suggest.
And Logan Grimnar himself is a good tactician. Why mindless? 'Cause they can fall to the Wulfen curse?
And the BA? The only reason you could say they're mindless is 'cause of the Black Rage/ Red Thirst. And still, they are great (chirurgical deep strike, yeah a mindless chapter could really do that... puh-lease).
DA paranoic... yeah, I must give you this.

So, what I'm saying? Simply that you can't participate to a debate and being so partial.

Sometimes, really, I think people should simply turn off their pc...

I don't mind someone else's opinion on the Wolves or the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels (the latters I don't even play, so yeah), but being CLEARLY a hater is simply... I dunno... I think idiotic is the right word.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
I'm laughing, not 'cause this sentence have sense, but 'cause is clearly written by a hater.

I'm laughing, not because what you said made sense, but because you clearly took only a cursory glance at what I wrote without putting forth the effort to actually comprehend it and suffered a knee-jerk reaction, jumping to conclusions and arguing points that were never made.

SW and BA mindless? Ah! Please, SW Codex: "Though they appear like barbarians, the Wolves are far from it." Russ was a great tactician. Not good as, IDK, Horus or Perturabo, but he wasn't mindless like YOU suggest.

I was referring to those who suffer from the Wulfen Curse, specifically. You know, the werewolf curse that renders Space Wolves into mindless, mutated berserkers, with the seeming exception of the 13th Company.

And Logan Grimnar himself is a good tactician.

True, he is among the most capable Chapter Masters in the Imperium. Bjorn I'd argue is even better than that.

Why mindless? 'Cause they can fall to the Wulfen curse?

No, they're mindless when they do fall to the Wulfen Curse, they are not mindless because they can. They are mindless if they do.

And the BA? The only reason you could say they're mindless is 'cause of the Black Rage/ Red Thirst.

Yeah, you know, those two genetic flaws that make the Blood Angels into nigh-mindless berserkers, who will wade into battle without a care for self-preservation or, in the case of the Red Thirst, care for whether or not they are murdering friend or foe.

There is a stigma against the Flesh Tearers for a reason.

And still, they are great (chirurgical deep strike, yeah a mindless chapter could really do that... puh-lease).

Of course they are great, they are one of the most accomplished chapters.

DA paranoic... yeah, I must give you this.

Of course you do, because like everything else I have stated, it is true.

So, what I'm saying? Simply that you can't participate to a debate and being so partial.

To quote Lorgar, "So we are speaking in hypocrisies today?"

Sometimes, really, I think people should simply turn off their pc...

I am right you are wrong.

I don't mind someone else's opinion on the Wolves or the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels (the latters I don't even play, so yeah), but being CLEARLY a hater is simply... I dunno... I think idiotic is the right word.

Well I guess that is why you took no issue with what I said about the Dark Angels. It is you who are biased in this. Not I.

Also, refrain from insulting the intelligence of fellow posters, especially if you are making a huge leap to an unsound and frankly erroneous conclusion while doing so.

People hate Ultramarines for a very simple reason.

Back in the day, the original Space Marine chapters were made-up by nerdy game-designers, not all of whom were totally serious about the fluff behind their creations, hence the notorious Rainbow Warriors, who were a direct jab at the sexual preference of Space Marines. And why there are multiple chapters named some sort of "angel". When I say "nerdy" I mean like 1980's nerdy which was a very un-cool thing to be.

Back in the late 80's, the words "Ultra" and "Mega" were marketing terms used to sell things, kinda like before 2001 putting the number "2000" behind something would jazz it up. Ultra was like, totally lame, ya know? Like, fer sure. Naming your chapter "Ultra" marines was pretentious, lame, and considered very un-original at the time. The reason there are 1000 chapters is so gamers wouldn't feel like they had to pick "Space Sharks" or "Mantis Warriors" or any of the lame pre-generated chapter/paint schemes.

Then you have the UM with a Frenchie for a Primarch? I could be wrong, but I think it is still globally considered politically correct and non-racist to hate all things French. I remember a lot of jokes in the early 90's about how do you identify Ultramarine Rhinos on the battlefield? They're the ones with the white flags on the antenna.

This is kinda why I don't like the whole "every chapter is decended from Primarch X" fluff. It inhibits my creativity. Of course, there are the two missing legions....

I can remember Ice Planet 2002 from the 90's Space Lego. I always found that name kind of odd. Also try reading a comic from 1970 about this year. Accodring to Superman we should all have waterheads (heads four times our sizes now or the size of the big-headed people Gordon Ramsay quarrels with). According to Donald Duck we would have jumpy cars (physics can't be a strongpoint for drawers as they would be endlessly uncomfortable). When it came to the Ultras I always thought they were named after whitewash.

The Primarch provides a general guideline. F.ex. wanting to make a chapter based of the Imperial Fists, make them into unsmiling hardliners with a drab but sensible approach to combat.

I understand the whole Primarch thing and why they did it. Eventually, they had to reconcile all the fluff material. I just wish the Squats hadn't been obliterated.

Honestly I think people know that deep down following a set of rules with out taking into account person responsibility and judgement to the matter at hand is imperfect itself and possibly a bigger flaw then most other chapters have. It's clearly not the way anyone would choose to be or choose anyone else to be. It's not honorable in anyway. It's blind, simple, and relatively weak way to live. People can respect someone more flawed who think freely with their own judgement over someone who blindly follows rules laid out before them without thinking that those rules may be static and not be able to encompass all situations. At least that's what it is for me. Though I don't hate them, just not my fav's

I think calling them perfect is crazy. Their blind following is one of the most gigantic flaws of any chapter. The black thirst can be dealt with , but you can deal with a flaw that is that deep seeded in the entire chapter that would would turn each other in for not following the codex in a situation where it was wrong or put them in uneeded danger. They are far from perfect, and even if it's not consciously recognized it's in a way that people do notice and inherently don't respect. Though their desire to be honorable and do right I think is the quality that redeems them. They mean well but missapply that meaning in my opinion.

I agree, that's very well stated. It's really only the Ultramarines themselves that refer to themselves as perfect, and try to spin their ovine nature and mentality into something good. A willingness to follow orders no question asked, no matter the danger is a good quality in a soldier, to a point. They pass that mark by far. They're the definition of amoral, Chaotic Good and it's my opinion and experience that general human nature abhors extremism in any way and prefers behavior that is middlewise.

Ultra smerfs are usually the starting go to army for most, so a lot of **** heads choose them and play them badly, then they complain about the army (Which has all the other space marines toys) being under powered and cry about it. Ultra marines can do almost everything better than most armies so people pick them and people who don't dislike them because they take/have whatever their army had that was special.

Slayer222 wrote:
Ultra smerfs are usually the starting go to army for most, so a lot of **** heads choose them and play them badly, then they complain about the army (Which has all the other space marines toys) being under powered and cry about it. Ultra marines can do almost everything better than most armies so people pick them and people who don't dislike them because they take/have whatever their army had that was special.

Someone sounds bitter, considering the fact they are pretty low on the SM power chart, not to mention they havn't really taken much, especially considering the other codex.

I'm not that bitter, just heard alot of people complaining (mostly from other spacemarine chapters)(some xenos) that whatever they have the smerfs have, i personally don't have a problem playing them and love packing lots of ap 3 . But this is basically what i hear and see people doing/complaining about.

The Ultramarines are the definition of Lawful Good Paladins pure and simple. That's boring for the common man, and their fans loving perfection are even worse.

My hate stems from the fact that Marneus Calger looks like a Gym Teacher, so I can't help but picture every Ultramarine as a stereotypical jock badguy from a 80s movie

"Do not ask why, rather, ask why not."

I don't hate them, they're awesome, love their colours and discipline and everything about them! < (Kind of contradicts my namesake because he hates their guts...but still.)

But you'd never see me field an army of them simply because they're too common in the sense that they're everywhere, when I walk in GW, I see them in the display cases, on the tables, and on tons of posters and books on the shelves.

I'd feel unimaginative if I did an army of them, it'd be like painting Black legion from the chaos legions.

2x210 wrote:
My hate stems from the fact that Marneus Calger looks like a Gym Teacher, so I can't help but picture every Ultramarine as a stereotypical jock badguy from a 80s movie

So you think Calgar looks like this :

He looks like Helga's dad from Hey Arnold to me albeit with lighter hair.

Calgar looks like Mr. Woodcock. Haha.

 DarthMarko wrote:

2x210 wrote:
My hate stems from the fact that Marneus Calger looks like a Gym Teacher, so I can't help but picture every Ultramarine as a stereotypical jock badguy from a 80s movie

So you think Calgar looks like this :

???

Judging by that flag on your profile you most likely didn't go to high school in 1970s Alabama, but if your recollection of a gym teacher is a mullet wearing dude who looks like an 80s wrestler, than perhaps you did.

This is how they looked in 80's in my country (well, probably not like this - but mullet was there )

Give me a pic of your sterotype please.....

I will do you one better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Woodcock Calgar in the flesh.

Pretty much dead on with Mr. Woodcock