I read that Horus once saved the Emperor's life on the planet Gorro, when he hacked the arm off a frenzied Ork that was trying to choke the life out of the Emperor...
Does this strike anyone else as odd? The god Emperor of mankind. Immortal conqueror of worlds, most powerful psychic in the galaxy, who single-handedly bested every primarch? Choked to to death by random ork? Could he really have been in that much mortal danger?
At the same time, I also think that a lot of people give way too much credit to propaganda and legends regarding how "immortal" the Emperor or the Primarchs were.
Primarchs can be killed by random troops (Dorn), Emperor can be "killed" by Primarch (Horus) ...
Lynata wrote: At the same time, I also think that a lot of people give way too much credit to propaganda and legends regarding how "immortal" the Emperor or the Primarchs were.
Primarchs can be killed by random troops (Dorn), Emperor can be "killed" by Primarch (Horus) ...
This. If you remove their "I'm a main character, I can't die until the story says so" protection any random idiot with an anti-tank missile can kill a primarch or the emperor.
Peregrine wrote: This. If you remove their "I'm a main character, I can't die until the story says so" protection any random idiot with an anti-tank missile can kill a primarch or the emperor.
I guess you missed the part about "I'm a main character and can't die until the story says so"? The fact that the emperor and primarchs survived has nothing to do with their durability, it has to do with them being main characters that can't die yet because they're important to the story. The exact same thing would happen in a book with a normal guardsman as the main character, and I don't think anyone is ever going to claim that guardsmen are invulnerable.
On the other hand, if you copy the primarchs into an alternate universe where the events have no impact on the main-universe story and put them on a random battlefield they're dead as soon as someone identifies them as enemy leaders and grabs an anti-tank missile/artillery barrage/orbital bombardment/nuclear weapon/etc.
Void__Dragon wrote:Stop making claims on the formidability of a Primarch with an example utterly lacking context.
How is it lacking context? Primarch tries to board a bridge and gets shot.
Same can happen to the Emperor. Hypothetically.
It is like Peregrine said - it's the plot armour that makes characters invulnerable, not some sort of ... I don't know, why should the Emperor or the Primarchs be as unkillable as you seem to believe? Is there some magical aura that protect them from all harm? Or is it not rather just writer fiat?
Some people believed Vandire was invulnerable until his Rosarius failed.
Void__Dragon wrote:One that feasted on the powers of Chaos.
Like the CSM Lord that got choked to death by Colonel Straken?
Lynata wrote: How is it lacking context? Primarch tries to board a bridge and gets shot.
Same can happen to the Emperor. Hypothetically.
It is like Peregrine said - it's the plot armour that makes characters invulnerable, not some sort of ... I don't know, why should the Emperor or the Primarchs be as unkillable as you seem to believe? Is there some magical aura that protect them from all harm? Or is it not rather just writer fiat?
Some people believed Vandire was invulnerable until his Rosarius failed.
It's lacking context because you don't even know if he got shot, he could have rampaged through a hundred Bloodthirsters and then been felled after he got tired and was hit by a hundred Lascannons. We don't know, it isn't valid evidence.
Well, because each one hovers around ten feet tall and is physically powerful enough to tear Space Marines limb from limb with their bare hands, or smash through tanks?
Primarchs are explicitly compared to Greater Daemons in the fluff, and many of them have bested such foes in single combat. Without needing to be Grey Knights to do so.
They are not "unkillable", your impotent strawman has no power here I am afraid. But they are far beyond any Marine in physical prowess, and it helps that some, such as Magnus or Lorgar, are very powerful psykers.
The Emperor is all that and more, but that said, this Ork was explicitly about the size of a dreadnought. There is no reason the Emperor could not be briefly physically challenged by one.
Like the CSM Lord that got choked to death by Colonel Straken?
Horus is the single most powerful and revered Chaos Champion the galaxy has ever seen.
That Chaos Lord was not.
Though Horus, amplified, did in fact physically dominate the Emperor, who is explicitly physically on par with a Primarch.
LazzurusMan wrote:I'm pretty sure Straken's METAL arm helped there
True enough. Also, he was a Catachan!
I still think it's a hilarious piece of fluff.
Void__Dragon wrote:It's lacking context because you don't even know if he got shot, he could have rampaged through a hundred Bloodthirsters and then been felled after he got tired and was hit by a hundred Lascannons. We don't know, it isn't valid evidence.
No, it's not "evidence" - but it has merit as a notable event. What's more likely when you board some random Chaos cruiser? That you meet a hundred Bloodthirsters and a hundred lascannons? Or that you encounter nothing but a bunch of frightened scrubs, frenzied cultists and a bunch of CSM line troops when you finally get to the bridge? Occam's razor.
Void__Dragon wrote:Well, because each one hovers around ten feet tall and is physically powerful enough to tear Space Marines limb from limb with their bare hands, or smash through tanks?
That's what the novels want to make you believe.
The same novels that can't even decide on whether a normal Space Marine should be 8, 10 or 14 feet high (when GW says they're 7), remember? Stuff needs to be Epic with a capital e.
It's not really something we can argue about, anyways. If you want Superhero World with people who can "smash through tanks", fine - I suppose my own interpretation of the setting is just a bit more gritty.
Peregrine wrote: The exact same thing would happen in a book with a normal guardsman as the main character, and I don't think anyone is ever going to claim that guardsmen are invulnerable.
Being choked by an ork seems like more of a credible threat to a guardsman. But an ork versus the Emperor? It might as well be snotling.
Void__Dragon wrote: But they are far beyond any Marine in physical prowess, and it helps that some, such as Magnus or Lorgar, are very powerful psykers.
So what if they're better than a marine? They're still roughly human-size blobs of meat, and when human-size blobs of meat go up against anti-tank weapons the anti-tank weapon wins. And there are a lot more anti-tank missiles than there are primarchs.
In some way it seems like the opposite of plot armour. In Bill King's short story of the Emperor's battle with Horus. The Emperor is described as having:
- His throat cut opening his Jugular and Wind pipe,
- Half his face melted off,
- His ribs crushed,
- His back broken,
- His arm pulled off...
He still manages to summon enough psychic might to kill Horus, while Horus is at peak power and being fed buffs by all four Chaos gods simultaneously. Yet, being choked by an ork: Emperor is helpless?
It seems like more of a plot weakness just to give Horus something to save him from.
Amaya wrote: Wasn't the ork one the of the largest warbosses of all time?
I must agree unless they have Eternal Warrior they will die the second someone sneezes to close to a lascannon trigger...if they have eternal warrior then that is another story, cause they have in universe super duper plot armor.
Have you never seen some of the orcs in the orc codex or the bizarrities they call orks in the Apocalypse stuff. Those things are huge! Huge I tell you, they could eat a space marine, Ghazzy already does every time he is fielded. I find nothing unusual that the emperor could get chocked out by an ork, without his fancy tech and armies he doesn't seem that impressive.
BTW has anyone else noticed a total disparity between psyker abilities in 40K? On one hand there are supposed to be planet destroying psykers in the fluff and yet the emperor is the "stongest" psyker yet never does anything really impressive psyker wise. Then the "strong" psykers hit the table and they have trouble dealing with a 10 man tac squad. I would have imagined them to be expensive but good, going from the fluff, like some high pts medusa siege gun that can be put in a squad.
Smacks wrote: In some way it seems like the opposite of plot armour.
No, it's exactly plot armor. The main character must be in danger and get close enough to death to make things exciting, but can't die until/unless it is necessary for story reasons. Because the emperor is a main character the ork was able to be exactly enough of a threat to almost kill the emperor and give an opportunity for heroic intervention.
Lynata wrote: [No, it's not "evidence" - but it has merit as a notable event. What's more likely when you board some random Chaos cruiser? That you meet a hundred Bloodthirsters and a hundred lascannons? Or that you encounter nothing but a bunch of frightened scrubs, frenzied cultists and a bunch of CSM line troops when you finally get to the bridge? Occam's razor.
I think that any battle requiring a Primarch leading the charge into combat isn't going to be just some random ass ship with normal troops.
Not that it really matters. If it took hundreds of "normal" Chaos worshippers to kill a single Primarch... How does that prove your point now?
That's what the novels want to make you believe.
Or the description of Ferrus Manus's life (Which I'll admit very likely is a lot of hyperbole, more than most examples). Or the fight between Russ and Magnus. Or Konrad Curze surviving a plummet through Nostramo. Or Leman Russ landing in a volcano. Or Mortarion being hit by a tank-mounted plasma cannon, and proceeding to tear the tank apart. All of this occurred outside of a novel.
Where is your contradictory fluff on the physical capabilities of the Primarchs now?
The same novels that can't even decide on whether a normal Space Marine should be 8, 10 or 14 feet high (when GW says they're 7), remember? Stuff needs to be Epic with a capital e.
Go ahead and provide contradictory fluff on a Primarch's physical power.
Also, name the instances within the Horus Heresy where Space Marine height is wildly contradicted.
It's not really something we can argue about, anyways. If you want Superhero World with people who can "smash through tanks", fine - I suppose my own interpretation of the setting is just a bit more gritty.
Sorry, but Primarchs are explicitly at least on par with Greater Daemons, who explicitly can "smash through tanks". This isn't an instance of differing interpretations. This is an instance of you being wrong.
Void__Dragon wrote: Or the description of Ferrus Manus's life (Which I'll admit very likely is a lot of hyperbole, more than most examples). Or the fight between Russ and Magnus. Or Konrad Curze surviving a plummet through Nostramo. Or Leman Russ landing in a volcano. Or Mortarion being hit by a tank-mounted plasma cannon, and proceeding to tear the tank apart. All of this occurred outside of a novel.
Again, plot armor. They survived because they were main characters who had to survive to continue the story.
Lynata wrote: [No, it's not "evidence" - but it has merit as a notable event. What's more likely when you board some random Chaos cruiser? That you meet a hundred Bloodthirsters and a hundred lascannons? Or that you encounter nothing but a bunch of frightened scrubs, frenzied cultists and a bunch of CSM line troops when you finally get to the bridge? Occam's razor.
I think that any battle requiring a Primarch leading the charge into combat isn't going to be just some random ass ship with normal troops.
Not that it really matters. If it took hundreds of "normal" Chaos worshippers to kill a single Primarch... How does that prove your point now?
Why would it have taken hundreds? How do you know he didn't charge into the boarding action and get shot in the face by a armsman with a shotgun? How do you know he was "required" to charge into battle and didn't just do it because he was emo, or honorable, or expected an easy victory?
Or the description of Ferrus Manus's life (Which I'll admit very likely is a lot of hyperbole, more than most examples). Or the fight between Russ and Magnus. Or Konrad Curze surviving a plummet through Nostramo. Or Leman Russ landing in a volcano. Or Mortarion being hit by a tank-mounted plasma cannon, and proceeding to tear the tank apart. All of this occurred outside of a novel.
Where is your contradictory fluff on the physical capabilities of the Primarchs now?
The same place where Angron and some number of Bloodletters are banished by 100 GKTs, and Magnus is held off for a long while and "suffers the greatest wound he'd suffered since the Burning of Prospero" from five Marines and a Dreadnought, and Mortarian gets the Emperor's name carved into his heart by what amounts to a Chapter Master.
To paraphrase the Emperor with a force of Custodes led the Luna Wolves and Horus on an attack on an Ork planet. Now this ork planet was rather special, it was entirely artificial, constructed from scrap etc and held together through some piece of Dark Age gravity tech. It was essentially a planet sized space hulk or ork rok.
On this planet the orks were of an immense size, nobs were as large as dreadnoughts. So a warboss of these was truly terrifying.
During the battle the emperor and his custodes become separated from the Luna Wolves and surrounded by orks. Battling for hours the Emperor is temporarily dazed/overcome be the sheer amount of firepower etc directed at him. (I assume his psychic shields gave out under the immense stress they were under). In his moment of weakness a warboss of these exceptional orks wrapped his paws around the emperor's neck. An instant later Horus was there and cut the ork's arms off.
It never says that the emperor was choking to death, or in mortal peril.
Nonsense. If you have a guardsman as the main character in a long series they're going to have consistent plot armor. It doesn't mean that guardsmen are invulnerable.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Why would it have taken hundreds? How do you know he didn't charge into the boarding action and get shot in the face by a armsman with a shotgun? How do you know he was "required" to charge into battle and didn't just do it because he was emo, or honorable, or expected an easy victory?
And how do you know he didn't cut a hundred Bloodthirsters in half and pimp a Keeper of Secrets before he died?
It is all speculation, speculation that Lynata brought into the thread, not I.
The same place where Angron and some number of Bloodletters are banished by 100 GKTs, and Magnus is held off for a long while and "suffers the greatest wound he'd suffered since the Burning of Prospero" from five Marines and a Dreadnought, and Mortarian gets the Emperor's name carved into his heart by what amounts to a Chapter Master.
Oh, you mean that battle where Angron tore through five or more Grey Knight Terminators in single swipes of his sword, and this being the single greatest concentration of amplified GK power we've read about?
Oh, you mean that story where Magnus wasn't actually wholly summoned into the Materium, and he tears through the Space Wolves defense instantly, which had held up before then?
Oh, you mean that Chapter Master who rampages through the Warp destroying the realms of Chaos Gods?
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Peregrine wrote: Nonsense. If you have a guardsman as the main character in a long series they're going to have consistent plot armor. It doesn't mean that guardsmen are invulnerable.
Can you show me a guardsman taking direct hits from heavy weaponry consistently?
You have no contradictory fluff to disprove the notion that Primarchs are Greater Daemon+ level combatants. Stop pretending you do.
I agree that plot armour when it raises its head, can usually be contributed to some form of luck. Like how the bad guys always seem to miss. Even when they do hit, and a main character is thought dead... It turns out no vital organs were hit, and they make a full recovery. Maybe it should be called plot luck.
I think that is different to someone actually being described as tougher or better. For example Las fire bounces off terminator armour. Though a marine could be unlucky and get hit in the eye or something (which might happen if the firer had some plot luck). You don't generally need plot armour to survive a Las shot... Terminator armour will do just fine. As would being a superhuman Primarch.
Void__Dragon wrote: Can you show me a guardsman taking direct hits from heavy weaponry consistently?
Of course it won't be direct hits. It will be barely dodging in time, or the magic shield just barely holding, or whatever. The point is that main characters, no matter who they are, no matter what genre they are in, always survive better than lesser characters.
You have no contradictory fluff to disprove the notion that Primarchs are Greater Daemon+ level combatants. Stop pretending you do.
I don't need any. An anti-tank missile will reduce a primarch-size being to a bloody mist. It doesn't matter how good you are at combat when a random soldier with a missile shoots you from a mile away, or calls in an artillery strike on you, or a bomber drops a tactical nuke on your battlefield, or whatever. If you get hit by that kind of weapon you're dead, and there are plenty of those weapons on the average battlefield.
The only way to survive that level of firepower is to cease to be anything that resembles a human. And since we don't see primarchs that are nothing more than AI programs uploaded into tank drones this is not the case.
Peregrine wrote: An anti-tank missile will reduce a primarch-size being to a bloody mist. It doesn't matter how good you are at combat when a random soldier with a missile shoots you from a mile away, or calls in an artillery strike on you, or a bomber drops a tactical nuke on your battlefield, or whatever.
You would expect primarchs to survive better than regular human though in any case. Aside from their superhuman toughness, and lightning reflexes, they also had tactical smarts, keen sense and awareness. They didn't survive a thousand battles just by luck, or just because the plot needed them to. They were designed that way.
It begs the question. If a primarch could be taken out by 1 guy with an anti tank weapon, and a bit of luck... Why would the Emperor even bother to make primarchs? Let alone invest so much time and energy into finding them.
Peregrine wrote:Of course it won't be direct hits. It will be barely dodging in time, or the magic shield just barely holding, or whatever. The point is that main characters, no matter who they are, no matter what genre they are in, always survive better than lesser characters.
Which means that when Primarchs take direct hits and ignore them, it's a statement that they are tough enough to not only survive but be unharmed by it. There's no plot device protecting them. They are not just blobs of meat. They were made with the power of the Warp. They are far beyond normal creatures, and so get to ignore normal guidelines about the toughness of man sized creatures.
Perhaps the Emperor isn't all he's cracked up to be. Perhaps the only reason he could beat up the Primarchs is genetic-behavioral patterning that he put into them during their creation.
What other badasses did the Emperor man-handle? None.
Perhaps the Emperor was also a predatory child molester who raped Horus while he was still a fetus, and repressed memories of this incident are the real reason for Horus's rebellion.
But to answer your question, the Emperor personally slew the leader of this Waaagh in question.
And maybe Gork and Mork had a side bet going on the uber-warboss to snipe emperor pinkies head, just sounds like a foreshadow event to display how far horus will fall..
Save his daddy..and eventually betray his daddy, and get wiped from existance for it.
Its all legendary stuff anyway, kinda like 40k version of the Iliad or the Odyssey. Based on history , but full of the actions of gods, and their pawns.
rems01 wrote:Heresy Betrayal sheds more light on this event.
To paraphrase the Emperor with a force of Custodes led the Luna Wolves and Horus on an attack on an Ork planet. Now this ork planet was rather special, it was entirely artificial, constructed from scrap etc and held together through some piece of Dark Age gravity tech. It was essentially a planet sized space hulk or ork rok.
On this planet the orks were of an immense size, nobs were as large as dreadnoughts. So a warboss of these was truly terrifying.
During the battle the emperor and his custodes become separated from the Luna Wolves and surrounded by orks. Battling for hours the Emperor is temporarily dazed/overcome be the sheer amount of firepower etc directed at him. (I assume his psychic shields gave out under the immense stress they were under). In his moment of weakness a warboss of these exceptional orks wrapped his paws around the emperor's neck. An instant later Horus was there and cut the ork's arms off.
It never says that the emperor was choking to death, or in mortal peril.
Re-quoting for emphasis.
I can't believe it took so long for the 'answer' to come up, or that people debated the toughness of the Emperor without raising, or knowing, it.
To me, it seems like this elaboration/re-writing of the 'emperor choked by an ork' fluff was to deliberately clear up the incident and show the power of the big E, and that he wasn't choked by some random run of the mill ork.
Daemon Princes can sunder tanks with casual effort; we know for a fact that Primarchs can not only tank the attacks of Daemon Princes, but physically overpower them in return. Sanguinus took a point blank hit from Ka'Banda that instantly incinerated the 500 Blood Angels that were fighting on the battlefield around them, leaving a massive crater in the middle of the battlefield. Sanguinus was knocked unconscious, but basically unharmed. 24 hours after taking that point-blank hit, he wakes the feth up, goes to Ka'Banda's house and physically dominates him with, literally, his bare hands, after one-shotting a Keeper of Secrets without even looking at him.
When Fulgrim's captains fought him before trying to exorcise the daemon from him, one of his captains, who was wearing terminator armor, punched him in the back of the head with a power fist- it did nothing- and that was after Fulgrim had been shot multiple times with poison darts that were capable of instantly killing normal astartes. After the terminator's power-fist bounced harmlessly off of Fulgrim's head, it took Fulgrim's noise marine captain resting the barrel of a blast master cannon against his ear, and then firing it at point-blank range, to finally knock Fulgrim unconscious. Not kill him, mind you, all it did was knock-him out. The Primarch woke up 10 minutes later. The force of the blast from the Blast-Master brought all the captains in the surrounding area to their knees in pain, and shattered the stone pillars housed through the room. Fulgrim was basically unharmed from this. He wasn't even wearing armor, he was wearing a loin-cloth, lol.
In Angel Exterminatus, a Raven Guard snipes Fulgrim in the head with a custom made sniper rifle. The bullet enters Fulgrim's skull from the left-hand side, goes through his brain, and lodges itself in the right hemisphere of his brain. While Fabius Bile is digging in Fulgrim's skull trying to get the bullet out, Fulgrim is conscious and talking to Perturabo. As soon as Fabius takes the bullet out, Fulgrim gets to his feet and laughs it off.
Yet people genuinely believe that an RPG or other heavy weapon would one-shot a Primarch? Stop being silly, guys.
So are Primarchs now nearly indestructible? For the sake of argument, do they have bullet proof heads or do they actually need a helmet? What's to stop a sniper shooting them through the head? If one was momentarily dazed and you put a gun right to his temple and tried to blow his brains out, that would work right? They aren't indestructible, they're still human, or so the fluff was that I grew up with. All this 'took a energy blast to the chest that killed 500 people around him' stuff seems so OTT. I thought primarchs were prided for their intelligence and leadership, not for being able to rip tanks in half like telephone directories.
It isn't OTT because it's the only way it makes sense without plot armor.
If Primarchs could be killed by something as ordinary as sniper rounds to the head, or a shotgun to the face, none of them would have lived long enough to even make it to the Horus Heresy- they would have all been killed off eventually during the Great Crusade, considering the caliber of enemies they fight.
As far as "are they invulnerable". Well. Fast-forward to the 41st millennium, how many Primarchs are around? Exactly. They obviously are not invulnerable.
Fluff depends on who wrote it. There are too many different answers to find the correct one. Until forgeworld release the rules for them, we will not have a clear answer.
Sanguinius has been breaking the backs of Bloodthirsters over his knees since ages ago.
But this is some recent development, right guys? lol
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a b3ached whal3 wrote: Fluff depends on who wrote it. There are too many different answers to find the correct one. Until forgeworld release the rules for them, we will not have a clear answer.
BlaxicanX wrote: It isn't OTT because it's the only way it makes sense without plot armor.
If Primarchs could be killed by something as ordinary as sniper rounds to the head, or a shotgun to the face, none of them would have lived long enough to even make it to the Horus Heresy- they would have all been killed off eventually during the Great Crusade, considering the caliber of enemies they fight.
As far as "are they invulnerable". Well. Fast-forward to the 41st millennium, how many Primarchs are around? Exactly. They obviously are not invulnerable.
So lets say it happens and you shot a primarch in the head does it just bounce off like a BB or disappear because the plot armor wouldn't let it happen because it would kill him?
Why not both? The way I see it, Primarchs are incredibly powerful and durable beings, at least equal to Greater Daemons or Daemon Princes; but they also have plot armour, on top of this.
a b3ached whal3 wrote: Oh, and im guessing they had some pretty badass technology, e.g rerollable 2+ invun sort of thing, to explain how much they survive.
Nope. We've seen the rules for the first four primarchs (including Horus) and they're roughly MC-level durability with eternal warrior and normal character-level invulnerable saves. They have a lot of nice weapons and special rules, but an equal point value in dedicated MC killers will take one down pretty easily. An entire 40k-size army focusing on one will easily remove it in a single shooting phase.
BlaxicanX wrote: Yet people genuinely believe that an RPG or other heavy weapon would one-shot a Primarch?
Yes. This is simple physics here, heavy weapons that turn tanks into smoking wrecks do even worse things to meat. The only way to have a primarch survive that kind of fire is if their bones/internal organs/etc are all made out of tank armor. And since we see primarchs that look like giant humans with normal human flesh/blood/etc it just isn't possible. Nitpick all you want about whether it would take an RPG or something heavier, but a battlefield is full of things that will do the job. And if all else fails there's always nukes/orbital bombardment/etc.
Stop being silly, guys.
Or we could stop being silly and taking the events literally. The most reasonable explanation is that the stories of the primarchs (and a lot of space marines in general) are in-universe propaganda and/or legends where events are wildly exaggerated for dramatic effect, when they aren't just being made up entirely.
Fluff doesn't care about physics, not even a little bit. There are numerous feats within the fluff that show Primarchs easily taking damage that would destroy a tank and shrugging them off. Whether that's consistent with real-life or not is incredibly irrelevant. Welcome to Sci-Fi/Fantasy, the land where planets can talk and demons jump out of people's heads.
Furthermore, what you're arguing isn't "physics". Primarchs look they're wearing normal human skin so their skin must have X amount of durability" is not related to the field of physics at all.
Oh god, I hate this BL crap! Yes, in the past we had stories about Primarchs doing crazy things. Usually they were represented as legends from distant past and could be regarded as such to be be mythical representations of events. Now HH books have taken all that literally, and written Primarchs to be some lame superheroes that punch tanks and have bulletproof skin.
As for Emperor and the Ork, this never seemed strange to me. Ork bosses can be really huge and powerful so it makes sense one could threaten Emperor.
BlaxicanX wrote: Fast-forward to the 41st millennium, how many Primarchs are around? Exactly. They obviously are not invulnerable.
You mean the 7 ones who are Daemon Princes + 1 who is missing/in disguise with other 4 who are missing + 1 who is sleeping in a fortress and the final one who is in stasis. I don't see that most of them are dead here....
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Peregrine wrote: An entire 40k-size army focusing on one will easily remove it in a single shooting phase.
And in the meantime his entire 40k army will blast your into oblivion while you are trying to kill just him.
Void__Dragon wrote: Sorry, but Primarchs are explicitly at least on par with Greater Daemons, who explicitly can "smash through tanks". This isn't an instance of differing interpretations. This is an instance of you being wrong.
Actually it is a case of differing interpretations. I've not read, nor do I wish to read, the BL Horus Heresy books and I've no wish to delve into 30k. For me the Horus Heresy is a collection of myths, legends, extorted tales of deeds, heroism, darkness, woe, sacrifice, suffering and ultimately 'victory' for the Imperium & the God-Emperor. For me the Horus Heresy is shrouded in mystery, the tales of it bloated and exaggerated, the few names remembered, where they are remembered, are used to frighten children into obedience. The Primarch's, where people know of them, are seen as demi-Gods, the disciples of the great and holy God-Emperor, unmatched in battle, incredible leaders of humanity, strong and powerful individuals - and whilst they were powerful compared to humans/Astartes, the tales of their prowess are exaggerated for religious propaganda, when in reality they were incredibly powerful compared to a human or Astartes but not on par with Greater Daemons.
Crimson wrote: Oh god, I hate this BL crap! Yes, in the past we had stories about Primarchs doing crazy things. Usually they were represented as legends from distant past and could be regarded as such to be be mythical representations of events. Now HH books have taken all that literally, and written Primarchs to be some lame superheroes that punch tanks and have bulletproof skin.
Well said sir.
Crimson wrote: As for Emperor and the Ork, this never seemed strange to me. Ork bosses can be really huge and powerful so it makes sense one could threaten Emperor.
Well Gharkul Blackfang was an enormous Ork Warboss whom the Emperor struck down personally. Wasn't he about 30ft high or so?
Yes. This is simple physics here, heavy weapons that turn tanks into smoking wrecks do even worse things to meat. The only way to have a primarch survive that kind of fire is if their bones/internal organs/etc are all made out of tank armor. And since we see primarchs that look like giant humans with normal human flesh/blood/etc it just isn't possible. Nitpick all you want about whether it would take an RPG or something heavier, but a battlefield is full of things that will do the job. And if all else fails there's always nukes/orbital bombardment/etc.
The body of a Primarch differs from that of a human, or even a space marine on so many ways. The rules we apply to humans and space marines do not work on Primarchs because, well, they are almost alien in nature to us.
Take my argument below as an example.
Marine gets hit with a heavy bolter round = his flesh suffers heavy trauma from the entry wound and the subsequent detonation of the shell.
Primarch gets hit with a heavy bolter round = we don’t know what effect this would have a Primarch, as the limits of an Primarch’s resistance to pain and damage has not been fully shown to us yet, though there are examples in HH of such weapon being used on a Primarch with only minimal effect.
a b3ached whal3 wrote: Until forgeworld release the rules for them, we will not have a clear answer.
I don't think 'in game' rules are a reliable representation of reality. They are an abstraction. For example: weapon ranges are only a a tiny fraction of what they should be. Vehicles also appear to move incredibly slowly relative to troops, even things like jet bikes and flyers would barely overtake a bicycle at top speed. Things in game have to be toned down and balanced out to make them playable.
Sparks_Havelock wrote: they were incredibly powerful compared to a human or Astartes but not on par with Greater Daemons.
So why was Sanguinius then able to hold back 3 Legions + daemons for days all alone if he was so weak? ( Eternity Gate last stand )
As I said, religious propaganda, one of the God-Emperor's disciples actions being exaggerated. I view it from the perspective of 40k, not the time when it happened. Don't forget that Greater Daemons are beings of PHENOMENAL power, the very physical & warp-infused manifestation of their God who can sunder entire planets on their own without effort - I just said that Primarch's, whilst powerful, are not as powerful as them.
Sorry but the idea of it all is just as stupid as superman getting shot in the eye in that terrible movie, I can buy a primarch never getting shot in the face or getting hit with what ever the feth because of his "experience" but I cant buy that if it happened they just shrug bullets and rockets to the face off, its to much for me even for scifi and even for poorly written scifi.
I don't mean to start a flame war, but I think this is simply the kind of thing, you open to interpretation. Some will say the primarch's are protected by luck, reflexes, and plot armour like me, because it makes them that much cooler when they still kick so much ass, despite not being immortal and indestructable.
Other's, will say that primarch's are essentially super saiyan. who can slap aside tankrounds, armwrestle with bloodthirsters, and carve through standard marines as if they were grot's
I personally find this interpretation well over the top, but if you like it, more power to you. This hobby is about enjoying it, and if that means different interpretations of the fluff, so be it
vir6 wrote: Sorry but the idea of it all is just as stupid as superman getting shot in the eye in that terrible movie, I can buy a primarch never getting shot in the face or getting hit with what ever the feth because of his "experience" but I cant buy that if it happened they just shrug bullets and rockets to the face off, its to much for me even for scifi and even for poorly written scifi.
My guess would be that a Primarch could easily lose an eye to a stray bullet or some such. But I don’t think such a wound would have a long term effect on a Primarch, as they can regenerate their flesh, bones and organs at a staggering speed.
Sparks_Havelock wrote: As I said, religious propaganda, one of the God-Emperor's disciples actions being exaggerated.
But the difference here is that is not propaganda but actual historical events as we as the 3'rd person ( read: readers of the story ) can actually see what happened. We also have the proof that they are much more powerful than grater daemons - Sanguinius broke back of Ka'Bandha - who is described as described as the mightiest of Khorne's servants ( codex: Blood Angels p. 18 ) and Fulgrim who chocked Avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands ( Fulgrim ).
But this is pointless, people who think that Primarchs are weak will always think that even if GW themselves state that they are as powerful as gods and indestructible as black holes. People can have their own opinion on the matter but please do not place your personal opinion against other one's personal opinion - especially if fluff always go in the way of other one's personal opinon ( the one that says that Primarchs are living Gods ).
Sparks_Havelock wrote: they were incredibly powerful compared to a human or Astartes but not on par with Greater Daemons.
So why was Sanguinius then able to hold back 3 Legions + daemons for days all alone if he was so weak? ( Eternity Gate last stand )
As I said, religious propaganda, one of the God-Emperor's disciples actions being exaggerated. I view it from the perspective of 40k, not the time when it happened. Don't forget that Greater Daemons are beings of PHENOMENAL power, the very physical & warp-infused manifestation of their God who can sunder entire planets on their own without effort - I just said that Primarch's, whilst powerful, are not as powerful as them.
Sanguinius' fight with Ka'Bandha seems to be quite firmly lodged in the canon, and has been long before BL existed. It is even mentioned in one of the 2nd edition short stories in the memories of a Chaos lord.
Also you have ask yourself if the Primarchs weren't at least as powerful as Greater Daemons, then why did the Emperor bother making them, and why did Chaos fear them so much? The whole thing only makes sense if you concede that they were also beings of PHENOMENAL power.
EDIT:
Also I think we should remember that primarchs probably recovered from most wounds in seconds (if regular marine healing is anything to go by). Penetrating shots to the head might be something they can struggle through.
But the difference here is that is not propaganda but actual historical events as we as the 3'rd person ( read: readers of the story ) can actually see what happened.
Perspective doesn't matter. We had this discussion on another thread yesterday. Odyssey is written from point of view of Odysseys, does not mean it is not a legend.
Here is what BL editor has to say on the subject:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library
Crimson wrote: Here is what BL editor has to say on the subject:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library
Which is essentially him copping out and refusing to commit to anything, in the event of bad continuity or things being revised. However since this board is about fluff. I think we need to accept the cannon as being truth, in order to discuss it. To turn up and say 'it's all lies' undermines the whole idea.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: But the difference here is that is not propaganda but actual historical events as we as the 3'rd person ( read: readers of the story ) can actually see what happened. We also have the proof that they are much more powerful than grater daemons - Sanguinius broke back of Ka'Bandha - who is described as described as the mightiest of Khorne's servants ( codex: Blood Angels p. 18 ) and Fulgrim who chocked Avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands ( Fulgrim ).
As I said I view things from the perspective of the 40k era, not from the era when it may have happened, when much has been forgotten and what is remembered is distorted & bloated with the telling over so many thousands of years. Yes it may have happened but when you look at it from the perspective of the 41st millenium, did it really happen that way or is it just propaganda to help bolster faith in the God-Emperor?
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: But this is pointless, people who think that Primarchs are weak will always think that even if GW themselves state that they are as powerful as gods and indestructible as black holes. People can have their own opinion on the matter but please do not place your personal opinion against other one's personal opinion - especially if fluff always go in the way of other one's personal opinon ( the one that says that Primarchs are living Gods ).
I didn't say they were weak. I said they were not on par with Greater Daemons, the very physical manifestation of the most powerful Gods in the Warp - but then interpretation on the power of a Greater Daemon depends on your personal viewpoint and I see them as perhaps the most powerful entities that can be brought forth into the physical realm and when, on the very rare occasions, they manifest they're near unstoppable.
Smacks wrote: Which is essentially him copping out and refusing to commit to anything, in the event of bad continuity or things being revised. However since this board is about fluff. I think we need to accept the cannon as being truth, in order to discuss it. To turn up and say 'it's all lies' undermines the whole idea.
GW have -always- said it's about personal interpretation and people being able to accept or reject what they wish. There is no 'cannon', there is just the setting & what people make of it.
Evileyes wrote:I don't mean to start a flame war, but I think this is simply the kind of thing, you open to interpretation. Some will say the primarch's are protected by luck, reflexes, and plot armour like me, because it makes them that much cooler when they still kick so much ass, despite not being immortal and indestructable.
Other's, will say that primarch's are essentially super saiyan. who can slap aside tankrounds, armwrestle with bloodthirsters, and carve through standard marines as if they were grot's
I personally find this interpretation well over the top, but if you like it, more power to you. This hobby is about enjoying it, and if that means different interpretations of the fluff, so be it
Re-quoting for emphasis.
Maybe this would help stop the 'real vs. myth', 'BL vs. IA' debates that we keep repeating.
For my 1000th post... And furthering the discussions about personal interpretation, I have a complete counter view.
I believe Ullanor was a set up. The Emperor was planning on leaving the Great Crusade and for the Crusade to continue properly, he needed all the legions to have complete, unwavering faith in his successor. Therefore, he engineers a situation against a suitable intimidating, yet common and easily recognisable foe - orks, led by a gigantic warboss, the largest warboss ever. He then creates a cirumstance where it appears his life is in grave danger and it seems that even he is about to be overwhelmed. Yet, what's the only way to save him? The actions of his future Warmaster.
The Warmaster "saves" him, so, in future, any marines who have doubts, perhaps think that they've been overlooked, can be quite reasonably countered with. "Ah, but Horus saved The Emperors life on Ullanor."
That seems to be a reasonable Gambit Roulette from The Emperor but also keeps the biggest irony of the heresy. He could never fathom Horus would turn on Him.
I guess you missed the part about "I'm a main character and can't die until the story says so"? The fact that the emperor and primarchs survived has nothing to do with their durability, it has to do with them being main characters that can't die yet because they're important to the story. The exact same thing would happen in a book with a normal guardsman as the main character, and I don't think anyone is ever going to claim that guardsmen are invulnerable.
On the other hand, if you copy the primarchs into an alternate universe where the events have no impact on the main-universe story and put them on a random battlefield they're dead as soon as someone identifies them as enemy leaders and grabs an anti-tank missile/artillery barrage/orbital bombardment/nuclear weapon/etc.
Agreed most books have such poor "plot armour" it hurts. I think the best example of negating this is the Fire and Ice (game of thrones) series.
Compel wrote: For my 1000th post... And furthering the discussions about personal interpretation, I have a complete counter view.
I believe Ullanor was a set up. The Emperor was planning on leaving the Great Crusade and for the Crusade to continue properly, he needed all the legions to have complete, unwavering faith in his successor. Therefore, he engineers a situation against a suitable intimidating, yet common and easily recognisable foe - orks, led by a gigantic warboss, the largest warboss ever. He then creates a cirumstance where it appears his life is in grave danger and it seems that even he is about to be overwhelmed. Yet, what's the only way to save him? The actions of his future Warmaster.
The Warmaster "saves" him, so, in future, any marines who have doubts, perhaps think that they've been overlooked, can be quite reasonably countered with. "Ah, but Horus saved The Emperors life on Ullanor."
That seems to be a reasonable Gambit Roulette from The Emperor but also keeps the biggest irony of the heresy. He could never fathom Horus would turn on Him.
I think that's a really, really cool idea - and happy 1000th - but IIRC the Betrayal fluff about the Emperor/Ork thing has it taking place on an asteroid, rather than Ullanor.
Nonsense. If you have a guardsman as the main character in a long series they're going to have consistent plot armor. It doesn't mean that guardsmen are invulnerable.
The point being made is essentially that if all guardsmen can get their arm cut off, and manage to not bleed to death due to being HUMAN (not grots or some other weakling), and then the main character guardsman gets his arm cut off, and survives, that is NOT plot armour, because it's consistent with the entire species type (note: SM's are their own species, and so are primarchs).
On the origional subject of the Ork coming close to killing the Emperor...why not? Since the fluff of the 40k game is most often told from the perspective of Mankind, of course you are going to have propaganda about how the Emperor is the most powerful being in the known universe. Of course you are going to have more propagand saying the Primarchs were god like beings that were almost unstoppable.
But it is written 10,000 years after the fact. The 6th edition rule book even says a lot of the stuff may just be rumors and legends and it is hard to tell what is truth and what is merely myth.
Besides, why is it that only the forces of the Imperium can have super powered beings? Can't Orks have super powered beings too? Why is that Ork warboss thought of by many as just an ordinary Warboss? Who's to say he wasn't one of the galaxy's most powerful beings and the emperor barely escaped with his life?
People need to stop acting like the Primarchs are unstoppable beings that can't be killed by anything or anyone. They obviously can and could. And the Emperor is no different. Proof? Emperor was killed by Horus. Night Haunter was killed by an Imperial Assassin.
Physics doesn't differentiate between meat and tank armour, what physics cares about his density, hardness, brittleness, malleability, conductivity, tensile strength, compressive strength, ect.
And Primarch flesh pretty clearly surpasses most tank armour in hardness, tensile and compressive strength, and remains malleable enough to allow them to move without cracking.
Pro-tip, Superman is made of meat. Fiction doesn't care, fictional meat is hardcore.
As wisely noted already, fluff is malleable and everyone is free to believe what they want. However, I personally prefer Primarchs not to be some comic book superheroes that are immune to bullets and even missiles. To me that kind of thing just seems juvenile. And luckily FW seems to agree, even though their Primarchs have slightly better stats than I would've given them, they still can be killed by massed bolter fire (granted, gakloads of bolter fire.)
Honestly, im with the people saying it's all about interpretation. Remember that a lot of these books are written from the Imperial perspective, and BL editors have come out and said that a lot of it is exaggerated because the IoM doesn't want to make their heroes look weak.
Also, if the main character (in this case a Primarch or The Emperor) was shot and killed in the first battle in the book, it would be a pretty sucky book.
Smacks wrote: I read that Horus once saved the Emperor's life on the planet Gorro, when he hacked the arm off a frenzied Ork that was trying to choke the life out of the Emperor...
Does this strike anyone else as odd? The god Emperor of mankind. Immortal conqueror of worlds, most powerful psychic in the galaxy, who single-handedly bested every primarch? Choked to to death by random ork? Could he really have been in that much mortal danger?
I've read the last couple of pages, with the various merits on powers of primarchs, the emperor and greater daemons.
What noone is really looking at is the Ork.
They don't have an upper limit, there is no ceiling on how big and powerful an ork can grow, they tend to be limited simply by lifespan being short due to ongoing conflict and eventually running out of luck.
In the times before, with the necrons slumbering, the eldar empire collapsing inwards, the tyranids an unknown, the tau not yet walking upright, the Orks would have conquered unchecked, there was no civilization mighty enough to give them serious pause.
The orks would have found conflict anywhere they wanted and kept on ploughing through opponents, so they would have grown and thrived. Ghaz now can give a greater daemon a serious run for it's money, it's hardly a stretch to imagine similar or greater orks at that time being more abundant and one of them, cranked up to 11 with Waaagh power, mopping the floor with the big E.
Everyone here is so concerned with the relative merits of each primarch, daemon, the emperor, the daemon primarchs... noone's just asking 'can an ork, in the right conditions, become that powerful' and the answer, provided on plenty of occasions is 'yes'.
Smacks wrote: I read that Horus once saved the Emperor's life on the planet Gorro, when he hacked the arm off a frenzied Ork that was trying to choke the life out of the Emperor...
Does this strike anyone else as odd? The god Emperor of mankind. Immortal conqueror of worlds, most powerful psychic in the galaxy, who single-handedly bested every primarch? Choked to to death by random ork? Could he really have been in that much mortal danger?
I've read the last couple of pages, with the various merits on powers of primarchs, the emperor and greater daemons.
What noone is really looking at is the Ork.
They don't have an upper limit, there is no ceiling on how big and powerful an ork can grow, they tend to be limited simply by lifespan being short due to ongoing conflict and eventually running out of luck.
In the times before, with the necrons slumbering, the eldar empire collapsing inwards, the tyranids an unknown, the tau not yet walking upright, the Orks would have conquered unchecked, there was no civilization mighty enough to give them serious pause.
The orks would have found conflict anywhere they wanted and kept on ploughing through opponents, so they would have grown and thrived. Ghaz now can give a greater daemon a serious run for it's money, it's hardly a stretch to imagine similar or greater orks at that time being more abundant and one of them, cranked up to 11 with Waaagh power, mopping the floor with the big E.
Everyone here is so concerned with the relative merits of each primarch, daemon, the emperor, the daemon primarchs... noone's just asking 'can an ork, in the right conditions, become that powerful' and the answer, provided on plenty of occasions is 'yes'.
This is true, due to the Ork race's genetics, the more experienced an ork is, the larger and stronger they become. It is also possible for battle experience to drill tactics and martial skills into an ork. Give an ork several hundred years, and that thing's going to be a friggin' MC, crushing all in it's path, and be an utter bitch to stop. (Ghazkhull being the modern example, even IOM fluff states he's 20ft tall, and slaughtered nigh-everything he met on armageddon).
Void__Dragon wrote:I think that any battle requiring a Primarch leading the charge into combat isn't going to be just some random ass ship with normal troops.
But that's what the background suggests - by omitting anything special about it. Surely you have read about the circumstances of Dorn's last fight, and that the Chaos vessel "Sword of Sacrilege" was just one of many in a fleet which the Imperial Fists tried to board in a series of hit&run actions to give their outnumbered strike cruisers a chance?
It may also be of note that the second wave of Dorn's Marines were able to successfully capture that ship, which is how they were able to recover his remains after all - so if there really were "a hundred lascannons" installed on that small bridge as you suggest, apparently they've all been removed in the short time it took the remaining Imperial Fists to arrive.
Void__Dragon wrote:Or the description of Ferrus Manus's life (Which I'll admit very likely is a lot of hyperbole, more than most examples). Or the fight between Russ and Magnus. Or Konrad Curze surviving a plummet through Nostramo. Or Leman Russ landing in a volcano. Or Mortarion being hit by a tank-mounted plasma cannon, and proceeding to tear the tank apart. All of this occurred outside of a novel. Where is your contradictory fluff on the physical capabilities of the Primarchs now?
I still think you're taking that stuff way too literal - just like in that other thread where you tried to defend the realism behind a Space Marine literally taking a millionth of a second to stab another guy because that's what it said in the novel.
Honestly, if you absolutely want to delve into such a "hyper-emphasised" version of the setting, knock yourself out - as mentioned, neither of us can be wrong here. I still think it's a bit silly, but that is of course merely a matter of personal preferences.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, name the instances within the Horus Heresy where Space Marine height is wildly contradicted.
I'll leave that to the people who actually read it - but I do know that the HH novels apparently cannot even decide on a Primarch's hair colour.
Smacks wrote:Which is essentially him copping out and refusing to commit to anything, in the event of bad continuity or things being revised. However since this board is about fluff. I think we need to accept the cannon as being truth, in order to discuss it. To turn up and say 'it's all lies' undermines the whole idea.
This is 40k - we have no "canon" here. We cannot just pretend because then we'd spend half our time debating which of the many conflicting accounts and contradictory books we should go by.
Yes, it really sucks for discussions about the background, but them's the breaks. For what it's worth, most of the time we still manage to find some sort of common ground, although that depends greatly on what level of detail we'd be talking to.
It's why I tend to phrase most of my posts regarding the fluff more like suggestions ("well in GW's books it says that [...]") or questions ("don't you think that [...]") rather than attempting to state facts. Not always, but it is something I try to keep in mind.
Crimson wrote:And luckily FW seems to agree, even though their Primarchs have slightly better stats than I would've given them, they still can be killed by massed bolter fire (granted, gakloads of bolter fire.)
I've not seen FW's stats for them yet. Are they better than what GW gave Angron?
Crimson wrote:Oh god, I hate this BL crap! Yes, in the past we had stories about Primarchs doing crazy things. Usually they were represented as legends from distant past and could be regarded as such to be be mythical representations of events. Now HH books have taken all that literally, and written Primarchs to be some lame superheroes that punch tanks and have bulletproof skin.
I don't think anyone ever disputed that all Space Marines are superhuman.
You are missing the point of the discussion.
Also, by how much the fluff and the gameplay actually differ or one overrides the other is debatable, chiefly because the fluff itself is so conflicted and intentionally does not seek to present a single universal truth, as much as some fans like to perceive it as such.
At the end of the day, I stand by the point that TT stats are, in comparison, the most objective resource we have simply because the TT does not have a protagonist, and because it's the tabletop around which the fluff was written, not the other way around.
That doesn't change that the tabletop is full of abstractions, but it is a very convenient method to gauge what is supposed to be close to, better than or weaker than X.
At the end of the day, I stand by the point that TT stats are, in comparison, the most objective resource we have simply because the TT does not have a protagonist, and because it's the tabletop around which the fluff was written, not the other way around.
The Table Top fails spectacularly to represent a great many things in it's stats very well because it needs to be relatively balanced.
For example, Shadow in the Warp precedes the Tyranids by lightyears, and on the table top it's a measly 12 inches. Not representitive of the actual SiTW.
Deathstrike missiles can destabilize the crust of a planet, only hit an area the size of a large blast marker on the table top. Not representative of the actual deathstrike missile.
The aforementioned missile is considered ineffective against some titans, yet on the table top, none have the all around armour 14 of a landraider.
It goes on and on, gameplay abstractions will never be able to accurately represent what we're looking for here, because gameplay abstractions are meant to be fair.
Lynata wrote: I've not seen FW's stats for them yet. Are they better than what GW gave Angron?
Better in what way?
Funnily enough Betrayal Angron statline is pretty similar to that Daemon Angron statline. Daemon has one point better BS, and WS, worse ini and save, otherwise it is the same. Obviously turning in to a huge monstrous creature did not actually make him any stronger or tougher... Daemonhood is clearly not what it is cracked up to be.
FW Primarchs have one point too much of S, T and W for my liking, but on the other hand existence of such characters as Mephiston and Cassius* kinda forces them to give Primarchs better stats.
(What's wrong with 5; why when someone needs to be stronger or tougher than regular marines stats jump straight to 6? I blame Ward. I blame him for everything.)
I think we disagree on the disparity between Primarchs and regular marines, Crimson, I'm kind of surprised the Primarchs didn't hit 7, lol.
A carnifex will not physically compete with a Primarch, and those can survive exterminatus just by hunkering down, and snap wraithbone spires like toothpicks.
ScreamPaste wrote: I think we disagree on the disparity between Primarchs and regular marines, Crimson, I'm kind of surprised the Primarchs didn't hit 7, lol.
A carnifex will not physically compete with a Primarch, and those can survive exterminatus just by hunkering down, and snap wraithbone spires like toothpicks.
Actually, I think the reason why primarchs seem so powerful is in a large part due to their martial skill. Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough, and the same concept applies to the primarchs. What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that the Primarchs weren't gods at all, they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons. But they wore artificer armour (making them tougher than a tank), they had the martial skill to best a hundred men in CC, not simply infinite strength.
Thier power in the HH series is a mix of being slightly genetically superior to a normal SM, skilled enough in combat to fight things successfully, tactical geniuses to avoid being shot at by orbital bombardment, and having the best tech ever made by mankind.
They are not superman. They are not indestructible. They are only slightly magical (only if the're psykers). They, and presumably the emperor, as he made them out of his own DNA, could be given a run for their money by a warboss who's bigger and stronger than they are.
Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough,
Not if they're physically comparable to him and aren't mentally deficient. :/
the Primarchs weren't gods at all,
I'm not at all saying Sanguinius should snap Khorne's back.
they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons
This is never shown or even implied. In fact, there are occasions where the primarchs are hit with some rather nasty weapons with out being blown apart. Mortarian taking anti tank weaponry without being effected comes to mind, and IIRC another Primarch survived being shot with a macro cannon.
I'm not claiming they're invincible, just very durable.
And actually, as infants the primarchs survived some insane things as well, like crashing through the crust of a planet made primarily of adamantine, or on death worlds where the monsters killed large numbers of grown men in power armour single handedly, or landing in volcanoes, it goes on, lol.
Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough,
Not if they're physically comparable to him and aren't mentally deficient. :/
the Primarchs weren't gods at all,
I'm not at all saying Sanguinius should snap Khorne's back.
they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons
This is never shown or even implied. In fact, there are occasions where the primarchs are hit with some rather nasty weapons with out being blown apart. Mortarian taking anti tank weaponry without being effected comes to mind, and IIRC another Primarch survived being shot with a macro cannon.
I'm not claiming they're invincible, just very durable.
And actually, as infants the primarchs survived some insane things as well, like crashing through the crust of a planet made primarily of adamantine, or on death worlds where the monsters killed large numbers of grown men in power armour single handedly, or landing in volcanoes, it goes on, lol.
At this point, I shall look at BL fluff and facepalm. You have a good point, but if someone were to utterly destroy the planet a primarch was on, he would most probably die. (But, then again, there is plot armour, so something would probably save them...).
Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough,
Not if they're physically comparable to him and aren't mentally deficient. :/
the Primarchs weren't gods at all,
I'm not at all saying Sanguinius should snap Khorne's back.
they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons
This is never shown or even implied. In fact, there are occasions where the primarchs are hit with some rather nasty weapons with out being blown apart. Mortarian taking anti tank weaponry without being effected comes to mind, and IIRC another Primarch survived being shot with a macro cannon.
I'm not claiming they're invincible, just very durable.
And actually, as infants the primarchs survived some insane things as well, like crashing through the crust of a planet made primarily of adamantine, or on death worlds where the monsters killed large numbers of grown men in power armour single handedly, or landing in volcanoes, it goes on, lol.
I would like to point out that a lot of this is RUMOR, even if it is in a horus heresy novel. Like the main rulebook says, it could be true or it could be myth. No one knows and the guys from the chaos side of things can't be trusted to tell the truth.
On another point, didn't Mortarion take that anti-tank weaponry to the face AFTER he became a Daemon Prince? Because that surely makes a difference.
Didn't Lion fight Luther rather evenly, even though Luther was basically just a normal Chaos Marine, if even that? (IIRC, he was too old to get proper geneseed, so they just used some bionics or something like that.)
Dorn was killed by normal CSM, Curze by an assassin.
What certainly happened that Sanguinius defeated a mighty Khornate Daemon. He may have even snapped it's back. This does not mean that he was stronger than a Bloodthirster, merely that he was really skilled and possibly quite lucky.
Either way it doesn't matter as it shows that there are forces in the galaxy that can and have killed both the Emperor and the Primarchs. So why not an Ork?
And a million voices from every direction claiming something as true doesn't make it so. Evidenced by both the modern day internet and people's belief of the world being flat in the middle ages.
IIRC, Luther was amped by Chaos when that occured.
Yes, just like every a bit more experienced chaos marine. Even if we accept that he was a really powerful chaos marine, this basically means that a CSM lord fought Primarch on equal terms.
Curze allowed himself to be killed, and I have nothing to say on Dorn as what actually happened there is speculation.
How can he allow himself to be killed if he is immune to bloody missiles? I can imagine the situation: M'shen keeps stabbing Curze fruitlessly into the face until her powers word finally breaks. "That's it! I quit and join Deparmento Sanitarium!"
Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough,
Not if they're physically comparable to him and aren't mentally deficient. :/
the Primarchs weren't gods at all,
I'm not at all saying Sanguinius should snap Khorne's back.
they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons
This is never shown or even implied. In fact, there are occasions where the primarchs are hit with some rather nasty weapons with out being blown apart. Mortarian taking anti tank weaponry without being effected comes to mind, and IIRC another Primarch survived being shot with a macro cannon.
I'm not claiming they're invincible, just very durable.
And actually, as infants the primarchs survived some insane things as well, like crashing through the crust of a planet made primarily of adamantine, or on death worlds where the monsters killed large numbers of grown men in power armour single handedly, or landing in volcanoes, it goes on, lol.
I would like to point out that a lot of this is RUMOR, even if it is in a horus heresy novel. Like the main rulebook says, it could be true or it could be myth. No one knows and the guys from the chaos side of things can't be trusted to tell the truth.
On another point, didn't Mortarion take that anti-tank weaponry to the face AFTER he became a Daemon Prince? Because that surely makes a difference.
Well said.
I don't have a problem with daemons (especially GD's or DP's) surviving that kind of stuff, because they're made of warp stuff, and have been given boat loads of unholy power by the gods.
ScreamPaste wrote: Some things are too consistent across sources to be rumour. Sanguinius physically dominating a greater daemon comes to mind.
As for the Mortarion thing, I do not believe so, as it was during the HH.
Edit: The above is at Roadkill.
@Crimson
IIRC, Luther was amped by Chaos when that occured.
Curze allowed himself to be killed, and I have nothing to say on Dorn as what actually happened there is speculation.
I would like to point out how, in DoW 1 rts game series, when a blood raven's captain lands the killing blow on a GD of khorne, you are treated to a spectacular display of combat prowess vs the GD, resulting in the captain standing on the daemon's shoulders, and whacking him in the face with a thunder hammer. This level of kill power is also reflected in the TT game. You don't exactly need to be the most powerful being in existence to do that...
ScreamPaste wrote: Some things are too consistent across sources to be rumour. Sanguinius physically dominating a greater daemon comes to mind.
As for the Mortarion thing, I do not believe so, as it was during the HH.
Edit: The above is at Roadkill.
@Crimson
IIRC, Luther was amped by Chaos when that occured.
Curze allowed himself to be killed, and I have nothing to say on Dorn as what actually happened there is speculation.
Well, if it was during the HH then Mortarion was most certainly empowered by Chaos. That would mean the laws of reality don't apply to him anymore as the Chaos factor makes him able to withstand a lascannon to the brainpan.
They don't have an upper limit, there is no ceiling on how big and powerful an ork can grow, they tend to be limited simply by lifespan being short due to ongoing conflict and eventually running out of luck.
Most important I think would be the Waagh! effect. The Emperor is an alpha-plus Psyker. Most physical forces without protection from Psychic powers are going to be toast going up against one. And as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, that situation has been elaborated on (there were a lot of Orks present, for instance).
Roadkill Zombie wrote:people's belief of the world being flat in the middle ages.
An assertion with exceedingly little proof other than what a few Victorians came up with if I recall correctly.
Crimson wrote:Yes, just like every a bit more experienced chaos marine. Even if we accept that he was a really powerful chaos marine, this basically means that a CSM lord fought Primarch on equal terms.
We have no idea how much power the Ruinous Powers put into Luther. It was one of two chances they had following the Heresy (that we know of) of taking out a Loyalist Primarch. Primarchs were a big deal (not so much due to their physical prowess but because of their leadership qualities).
How can he allow himself to be killed if he is immune to bloody missiles?
We have no idea how much power the Ruinous Powers put into Luther. It was one of two chances they had following the Heresy (that we know of) of taking out a Loyalist Primarch. Primarchs were a big deal (not so much due to their physical prowess but because of their leadership qualities).
So if Chaos can elevate some random second-class marine reject to equal powerlevel with the supposedly invincible Primarchs, why the hell have they not done so since? I think Abaddon would appreciate some of that mojo.
Power swords are really good at cutting?
Better than Lascannons and missiles? I don't think so.
We have no idea how much power the Ruinous Powers put into Luther. It was one of two chances they had following the Heresy (that we know of) of taking out a Loyalist Primarch. Primarchs were a big deal (not so much due to their physical prowess but because of their leadership qualities).
So if Chaos can elevate some random second class marine reject to equal powerlevel with Primarch, why the hell have they not done so since? I think Abaddon would appreciate some of that mojo.
Power swords are really good at cutting?
Better than Lascannons and missiles? I don't think so.
Good point. Standard power weapons on the TT are strength 3/4, AP 3.
ML's are strength 8, AP 3
Lascannons are strength 9, AP 2.
Just to throw some more Primarch durability points out there:
- "Vulkan Lives" (also the name of the upcoming book about him) through a weapon powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud.
- Ferrus survives a Thunder Hammer to the head and being punched repeatedly by Fulgrim; with said punch capable of crushing a Terminator helmet or an Avatar's face.
- Fulgrim survives being punched by a Wraithlord.
- Angron survived being crushed by fortifications.
- Prince of Crows/Age of Darkness:
Spoiler:
Curze survives his throat being cut. And as for Curze's death: decapitation (same for Ferrus, but willing).
So... Uh... Discuss. Personally, I'm not planning to stay in the discussion, anymore.
Just Dave wrote: Just to throw some more Primarch durability points out there:
- "Vulkan Lives" (also the name of the upcoming book about him) through a weapon powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud.
- Ferrus survives a Thunder Hammer to the head and being punched repeatedly by Fulgrim; with said punch capable of crushing a Terminator helmet or an Avatar's face.
- Fulgrim survives being punched by a Wraithlord.
- Angron survived being crushed by fortifications.
- Prince of Crows/Age of Darkness:
Spoiler:
Curze survives his throat being cut. And as for Curze's death: decapitation (same for Ferrus, but willing).
So... Uh... Discuss. Personally, I'm not planning to stay in the discussion, anymore.
Could be put down to propaganda, and 10,000 years of embellishment. (Like an extremely long game of Chinese whispers, you're going to end up with something completely different than when you started).
Just Dave wrote: Just to throw some more Primarch durability points out there:
- "Vulkan Lives" (also the name of the upcoming book about him) through a weapon powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud.
- Ferrus survives a Thunder Hammer to the head and being punched repeatedly by Fulgrim; with said punch capable of crushing a Terminator helmet or an Avatar's face.
- Fulgrim survives being punched by a Wraithlord.
- Angron survived being crushed by fortifications.
- Prince of Crows/Age of Darkness:
Spoiler:
Curze survives his throat being cut. And as for Curze's death: decapitation (same for Ferrus, but willing).
So... Uh... Discuss. Personally, I'm not planning to stay in the discussion, anymore.
Again, Fulgrim was enhanced by the Chaos powers at that time, so it doesn't count for just primarch power, it counts as primarch+daemon of chaos power.
Just Dave wrote: Just to throw some more Primarch durability points out there:
- "Vulkan Lives" (also the name of the upcoming book about him) through a weapon powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud.
- Ferrus survives a Thunder Hammer to the head and being punched repeatedly by Fulgrim; with said punch capable of crushing a Terminator helmet or an Avatar's face.
- Fulgrim survives being punched by a Wraithlord.
- Angron survived being crushed by fortifications.
- Prince of Crows/Age of Darkness:
Spoiler:
Curze survives his throat being cut. And as for Curze's death: decapitation (same for Ferrus, but willing).
So... Uh... Discuss. Personally, I'm not planning to stay in the discussion, anymore.
Again, Fulgrim was enhanced by the Chaos powers at that time, so it doesn't count for just primarch power, it counts as primarch+daemon of chaos power.
So much for staying out of the discussion, but... Fulgrim was un-possessed at the time.
Selym wrote:Could be put down to propaganda, and 10,000 years of embellishment. (Like an extremely long game of Chinese whispers, you're going to end up with something completely different than when you started).
That was all stated within narration; rather than historical accounts. Curze's death may be seen as an exception of this, as it may have been from the memory of Talos (I can't recall for sure).
Just Dave wrote: Just to throw some more Primarch durability points out there:
- "Vulkan Lives" (also the name of the upcoming book about him) through a weapon powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud.
- Ferrus survives a Thunder Hammer to the head and being punched repeatedly by Fulgrim; with said punch capable of crushing a Terminator helmet or an Avatar's face.
- Fulgrim survives being punched by a Wraithlord.
- Angron survived being crushed by fortifications.
- Prince of Crows/Age of Darkness:
Spoiler:
Curze survives his throat being cut. And as for Curze's death: decapitation (same for Ferrus, but willing).
So... Uh... Discuss. Personally, I'm not planning to stay in the discussion, anymore.
Again, Fulgrim was enhanced by the Chaos powers at that time, so it doesn't count for just primarch power, it counts as primarch+daemon of chaos power.
So much for staying out of the discussion, but... Fulgrim was un-possessed at the time.
Selym wrote:Could be put down to propaganda, and 10,000 years of embellishment. (Like an extremely long game of Chinese whispers, you're going to end up with something completely different than when you started).
That was all stated within narration; rather than historical accounts. Curze's death may be seen as an exception of this, as it may have been from the memory of Talos (I can't recall for sure).
And bearing in mind where we're at in warhammer 40k's timeline, who narrated it?
"It's all up to interpretation, here's my totally unsubstantiated speculation on the matter" is a massive cop-out. No one cares about your unsubstantiated speculation, fellas.
Just Dave wrote: They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.
And here, I shall fall back onto an old point. Nothing is truly cannon. They are all possibilities and author's interpretations.
If you want your Primarchs to survive almost anything, I'm not going to stop you. But my personal preference is that the HH novels are embellished versions of the truth, and that the Primarchs relied more on their wits than their bodies to survive this kind of punishment.
That was all stated within narration; rather than historical accounts.
This doesn't matter. We've been over this. It can still be a myth.
Things you posted seem ludicrous to me, but in any case the Primarch powerlevel seems to vary so wildly that it stops making sense if we try to take it all to be literally true. Either they can shrug off thunder hammer and lascannon hits to the unarmoured face or they can be decapitated by power swords and challenged by normal chaos marines. Both of these just cannot be true at the same time.
"i don't like this fluff, so it doesn't count"
" stats are the real measure"
" all is propaganda"
"Empy and Primarchs are weaklings who die easily...( does not realize they cut down on the ork opponents awesomeness too) "
Why is this in 40k background at all if the background and its sources can't be used?
Seriously? This reads like a gathering of 6 year olds in a sandbox.
1.) orks are either like MGS says or we will use the IIUP to gauge them but those who think they can diminish the power level of Emperor and Primarchs have to explain this result to the ork fan-base themselves.
2.) the fluff didn't state it was some run of the mill ork.
3.) if an ork can be from grot to titan sized , where is the problem?
4.) eldar get their avatars choked to death regularly...
5.) the Emperor survived it. So an attempt to choke him seems unsuccessful and not the way to win for an ork.
That was all stated within narration; rather than historical accounts.
This doesn't matter. We've been over this. It can still be a myth.
Things you posted seem ludicrous to me, but in any case the Primarch powerlevel seems to vary so wildly that it stops making sense if we try to take it all to be literally true. Either they can shrug off thunder hammer and lascannon hits to the unarmoured face or they can be decapitated by power swords and challenged by normal chaos marines. Both of these just cannot be true at the same time.
"i don't like this fluff, so it doesn't count" " stats are the real measure" " all is propaganda" "Empy and Primarchs are weaklings who die easily...( does not realize they cut down on the ork opponents awesomeness too) "
Why is this in 40k background at all if the background and its sources can't be used? Seriously? This reads like a gathering of 6 year olds in a sandbox.
1.) orks are either like MGS says or we will use the IIUP to gauge them but those who think they can diminish the power level of Emperor and Primarchs have to explain this result to the ork fan-base themselves.
2.) the fluff didn't state it was some run of the mill ork.
3.) if an ork can be from grot to titan sized , where is the problem?
4.) eldar get their avatars choked to death regularly...
5.) the Emperor survived it. So an attempt to choke him seems unsuccessful and not the way to win for an ork.
Just Dave wrote: They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.
There is no such thing.
I'll post this again:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library
Just Dave wrote: They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.
There is no such thing.
I'll post this again:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library
Just Dave wrote: They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.
And here, I shall fall back onto an old point. Nothing is truly cannon. They are all possibilities and author's interpretations.
If you want your Primarchs to survive almost anything, I'm not going to stop you. But my personal preference is that the HH novels are embellished versions of the truth, and that the Primarchs relied more on their wits than their bodies to survive this kind of punishment.
I never claimed it to be truly canon.
It is however, the most recent and detailed description of events; which is how I 'decide' on my (personal) canon (going back to the ol' "different interpretations"/"nothing is canon" way of dissolving a debate).
I'm not saying I want my Primarchs to be anything; I'm just stating what I've read. Personally, considering they were no-doubt created by the combined wits of the Emperor and Chaos Gods, I can believe the Primarchs are capable of such things.
Where is your evidence that these things are a myth.
I have no such evidence
So why should anyone respect or care about your statements, here? You've made your point already that you ignore fluff you don't like. So how are you contributing to the thread by trying to debate, without having an actual argument to debate with.
Just Dave wrote: They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.
And here, I shall fall back onto an old point. Nothing is truly cannon. They are all possibilities and author's interpretations.
If you want your Primarchs to survive almost anything, I'm not going to stop you. But my personal preference is that the HH novels are embellished versions of the truth, and that the Primarchs relied more on their wits than their bodies to survive this kind of punishment.
I never claimed it to be truly canon.
It is however, the most recent and detailed description of events; which is how I 'decide' on my (personal) canon (going back to the ol' "different interpretations"/"nothing is canon" way of dissolving a debate).
I'm not saying I want my Primarchs to be anything; I'm just stating what I've read. Personally, considering they were no-doubt created by the combined wits of the Emperor and Chaos Gods, I can believe the Primarchs are capable of such things.
You have a fair point. Tzeentch does tend to give his minions plot armour so thick that even Matt Ward has trouble penetrating it
Where is your evidence that these things are a myth.
I have no such evidence
So why should anyone respect or care about your statements, here? You've made your point already that you ignore fluff you don't like. So how are you contributing to the thread by trying to debate, without having an actual argument to debate with.
He is debating with a fairly good point. I haven't seen you back up any of your statements recently
And that's why I was going to stay out of this thread: I feel like there's too many people too set on an opinion to make it a debate really worth having, IMHO
So why should anyone respect or care about your statements, here? You've made your point already that you ignore fluff you don't like. So how are you contributing to the thread by trying to debate, without having an actual argument to debate with.
Do you realise that there is a shitton of GW fluff that contradicts some other part of the fluff? It is all just cannot be true at the same time. Everyone has to ignore certain parts of fluff, or conclude that we just don't know the truth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: He is debating with a fairly good point. I haven't seen you back up any of your statements recently
In order to have a good point you have to have evidence to support it. It may be a myth is, by itself, a meaningless statement. Destroyo, the Primarch I made up in a fan-fiction last week, may win in a Primarch free-for-all, but if I posted that in the thread below this one, and proceeded to debate with people about it, I would be contributing nothing to the actual discussion.
Do you realise that there is a shitton of GW fluff that contradicts some other part of the fluff? It is all just cannot be true at the same time. Everyone has to ignore certain parts of fluff, or conclude that we just don't know the truth.
So? The same is true for Star Wars or Halo any large sci-fi/fantasy universe. That's why human beings have brains, so we can analyze it objectively.
Furthermore, you're making a red-herring here. You aren't ignoring some fluff in favor of other fluff. You're ignoring all fluff in favor in favor of an opinion that is supported by no fluff.
Since its been mentioned a few times... can someone explain to me how you would choke an avatar?
They are hot iron with a molten lava core, they dont exactly need to breath, have no lungs, and wouldnt need oxygen for cellular respiration seeing as they are made of metal.
And as far as primarchs go, I agree that they probably have a lot of plot armor and padding because their feats are written of like they are a big deal, but if they were so strong I doubt wining ANY 1 on 1 fight would be worth writing about, and even so they would be written about more frequently than "primarch X killed (insert strong being here) that one time".
VanHammer wrote: Since its been mentioned a few times... can someone explain to me how you would choke an avatar?
They are hot iron with a molten lava core, they dont exactly need to breath, have no lungs, and wouldnt need oxygen for cellular respiration seeing as they are made of metal.
The quotes are "crushed the life", "crushing the life" and "watching as the life fled from its eyes"; interpret that how you will.
Automatically Appended Next Post: He is debating with a fairly good point. I haven't seen you back up any of your statements recently
In order to have a good point you have to have evidence to support it. It may be a myth is, by itself, a meaningless statement. Destroyo, the Primarch I made up in a fan-fiction last week, may win in a Primarch free-for-all, but if I posted that in the thread below this one, and proceeded to debate with people about it, I would be contributing nothing to the actual discussion.
Do you realise that there is a shitton of GW fluff that contradicts some other part of the fluff? It is all just cannot be true at the same time. Everyone has to ignore certain parts of fluff, or conclude that we just don't know the truth.
So? The same is true for Star Wars or Halo any large sci-fi/fantasy universe. That's why human beings have brains, so we can analyze it objectively.
Furthermore, you're making a red-herring here. You aren't ignoring some fluff in favor of other fluff. You're ignoring all fluff in favor in favor of an opinion that is supported by no fluff.
Personally - like you I suspect - I'm finding that the "nothing is canon" argument (which by now I'm sure we are all aware of) is too readily used to prevent meaningful debate or reaching of "conclusions", particularly in the face of counter-evidence.
So? The same is true for Star Wars or Halo any large sci-fi/fantasy universe. That's why human beings have brains, so we can analyze it objectively.
Furthermore, you're making a red-herring here. You aren't ignoring some fluff in favor of other fluff. You're ignoring all fluff in favor in favor of an opinion that is supported by no fluff.
I have analysed the matter, and found that there are contradictions. I've quoted the official GW stance for said contradictions: that things might be myths, legends or half-truths. When resolving contradictions to get consistent 'truth' of the settings, we have to dismiss certain parts of fluff as not-quite-true. I've stated my personal opinion what interpretation I prefer. What I've not done, is said that other interpretation is simply wrong.
There will be no 'evidence' that suddenly convinces everyone about the truth, as there is no truth. It is all fiction. It is not real.
BlaxicanX wrote: Provide these fluff instances that contradict the Primarch feats found in the Horus Heresy series.
The fact that the universe still (mostly) functions like our own. You can't have living beings with tank-level durability without completely changing the laws of physics so that meat has the same density as tank armor. Since we don't see that kind of bizarre world when we're looking at things other than primarchs the obvious conclusion is that the amazing feats we see in the Heresy novels are just myths full of wild exaggeration (often for propaganda purposes) or events that are just made up entirely because it made the story more interesting.
The only other way to "explain" primarch durability is to resort to "it's magic", which is no better than "it's plot armor".
Provide the fluff that contradicts the Primarch feats found in the Horus Heresy series.
How can a power sword decapitate a being that is can shrug off lascannon shots?
Was this lascannon shot aimed at an exposed neck, or was this Primarch trying to avoid dying by said Lascannon?
Because Curze was most certainly wishing and trying to die.
How can such being challenged by a mere chaos marine?
We don't know the particular's of the Lion's or Dorn's near-death and death, respectively. For the former; this was a Space Marine seriously juiced up on Chaos and psychic energy (see Kor Phaeron vs. Guilliman); for the latter, we don't know much except that he was seriously outnumbered. Curze's vision describes "dragged down by a hundred murderers in a dark tunnel, their knives and swords wet with the warriors blood" (although obviously, this is not the most accurate).
BlaxicanX wrote: Provide these fluff instances that contradict the Primarch feats found in the Horus Heresy series.
The fact that the universe still (mostly) functions like our own. You can't have living beings with tank-level durability without completely changing the laws of physics so that meat has the same density as tank armor. Since we don't see that kind of bizarre world when we're looking at things other than primarchs the obvious conclusion is that the amazing feats we see in the Heresy novels are just myths full of wild exaggeration (often for propaganda purposes) or events that are just made up entirely because it made the story more interesting.
The only other way to "explain" primarch durability is to resort to "it's magic", which is no better than "it's plot armor".
BlaxicanX wrote: Provide these fluff instances that contradict the Primarch feats found in the Horus Heresy series.
The only other way to "explain" primarch durability is to resort to "it's magic", which is no better than "it's plot armor".
Personally, I can't see why it cannot be both. Clearly the Primarchs will have plot armour; I wouldn't even try to deny that, but they also had varying levels of psychic ability and were apparently created with the help of the Chaos Gods.
Provide the fluff that contradicts the Primarch feats found in the Horus Heresy series.
How can a power sword decapitate a being that is can shrug off lascannon shots? How can such being challenged by a mere chaos marine?
If you're referring to Ferrus Mannus, the power sword was wielded by a being strong enough to kill power-armor wielding marines in a single punch, physically match an avatar of Khaine in combat and strangle a Wraithlord to death.
The manner of Dorn's death at the hands of Chaos Marines was never explained.
Neither of these are contradictions.
con·tra·dic·tion /ˌkäntrəˈdikSHən/ Noun A combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.
BlaxicanX wrote: Provide these fluff instances that contradict the Primarch feats found in the Horus Heresy series.
The fact that the universe still (mostly) functions like our own. You can't have living beings with tank-level durability without completely changing the laws of physics so that meat has the same density as tank armor. Since we don't see that kind of bizarre world when we're looking at things other than primarchs the obvious conclusion is that the amazing feats we see in the Heresy novels are just myths full of wild exaggeration (often for propaganda purposes) or events that are just made up entirely because it made the story more interesting.
The only other way to "explain" primarch durability is to resort to "it's magic", which is no better than "it's plot armor".
Physics doesn't differentiate between meat and tank armour, what physics cares about his density, hardness, brittleness, malleability, conductivity, tensile strength, compressive strength, ect.
And Primarch flesh pretty clearly surpasses most tank armour in hardness, tensile and compressive strength, and remains malleable enough to allow them to move without cracking.
Pro-tip, Superman is made of meat. Fiction doesn't care, fictional meat is hardcore.
Furthermore, it isn't "magic" just because it's unexplained anymore than lightspeed in Star Wars is unexplained magic. Welcome to Sci-Fi/fantasy.
I like to imagine the Emperor kills so many Orks that he ends up half buried beneath a pile of corpses, with only his head sticking out. A lone grot stumbles across him, and starts choking him.
Then Horus comes across the long grot, somehow managing to kill the Emperor, and punts it into space.
Was this lascannon shot aimed at an exposed neck, or was this Primarch trying to avoid dying by said Lascannon?
Because Curze was most certainly wishing and trying to die.
I don't know, you were the one quoting all the magnificent feats. See, if the situation is that an armoured Primarch tries to dodge a lascannon shot but it still hits his shoulder or something and then he survives that, then it totally okay by me. Some people made it sound like Primarchs could take lascannon shots and missiles to the face and shrug them off like Superman. In the former case the Primarch can indeed be killed by a powersword, in latter it is just impossible, even if he would not resists. It's like you cannot kill Superman with an machine gun even if he would not oppose you.
We don't know the particular's of the Lion's or Dorn's near-death and death, respectively. For the former; this was a Space Marine seriously juiced up on Chaos and psychic energy (see Kor Phaeron vs. Guilliman); for the latter, we don't know much except that he was seriously outnumbered. Curze's vision describes "dragged down by a hundred murderers in a dark tunnel, their knives and swords wet with the warriors blood" (although obviously, this is not the most accurate).
Thing is if Primarchs are really so incredibly powerful, it means that chaos made Luther (who was not even a proper marine) much more powerful than Abaddon, and indeed any other chaos marine ever. This just doesn't seem right to me.
LoneLictor wrote: I like to imagine the Emperor kills so many Orks that he ends up half buried beneath a pile of corpses, with only his head sticking out. A lone grot stumbles across him, and starts choking him.
Then Horus comes across the long grot, somehow managing to kill the Emperor, and punts it into space.
That's a perfectly plausible and viable assumption. NOTHING IS CANON AFTER ALL.
I don't know, you were the one quoting all the magnificent feats. See, if the situation is that an armoured Primarch tries to dodge a lascannon shot but it still hits his shoulder or something and then he survives that, then it totally okay by me. Some people made it sound like Primarchs could take lascannon shots and missiles to the face and shrug them off like Superman. In the former case the Primarch can indeed be killed by a powersword, in latter it is just impossible, even if he would not resists. It's like you cannot kill Superman with an machine gun even if he would not oppose you.
The power sword was wielded by a fellow primarch. This is not a contradiction.
Thing is if Primarchs are really so incredibly powerful, it means that chaos made Luther (who was not even a proper marine) much more powerful than Abaddon, and indeed any other chaos marine ever. This just doesn't seem right to me.
It was never stated that he was killed by a single chaos marine. It could have been one, it could have been a thousand. This is not a contradiction either.
LoneLictor wrote: I like to imagine the Emperor kills so many Orks that he ends up half buried beneath a pile of corpses, with only his head sticking out. A lone grot stumbles across him, and starts choking him.
Then Horus comes across the long grot, somehow managing to kill the Emperor, and punts it into space.
That's a perfectly plausible and viable assumption. NOTHING IS CANON AFTER ALL.
Its better than some of the stuff in the Black Library.
If you're referring to Ferrus Mannus, the power sword was wielded by a being strong enough to kill power-armor wielding marines in a single punch, physically match an avatar of Khaine in combat and strangle a Wraithlord to death.
If you're referring to Ferrus Mannus, the power sword was wielded by a being strong enough to kill power-armor wielding marines in a single punch, physically match an avatar of Khaine in combat and strangle a Wraithlord to death.
No, Curze. Killed by an Imperial Assassin.
Kurze allowed himself to be killed, and the actual beheading is never explained nor shown, as the vid feed cuts out right before she attacks him. This is not a contradiction.
Also, strangle a WRAITHLORD? Wut?
Read Fulgrim?
He may have strangled the Avatar, I can't remember. He punched one to death and strangled the other one to death. Can't remember which one died how.
Was this lascannon shot aimed at an exposed neck, or was this Primarch trying to avoid dying by said Lascannon?
Because Curze was most certainly wishing and trying to die.
I don't know, you were the one quoting all the magnificent feats. See, if the situation is that an armoured Primarch tries to dodge a lascannon shot but it still hits his shoulder or something and then he survives that, then it totally okay by me. Some people made it sound like Primarchs could take lascannon shots and missiles to the face and shrug them off like Superman. In the former case the Primarch can indeed be killed by a powersword, in latter it is just impossible, even if he would not resists. It's like you cannot kill Superman with an machine gun even if he would not oppose you.
I never stated the Lascannon/Mortarion thing, as I don't know that piece of fluff myself and therefore cannot comment on it in particular.
That's because Superman is actually bullet-proof. I never stated the Primarch's to be anything-proof, but they are extremely tough.
We don't know the particular's of the Lion's or Dorn's near-death and death, respectively. For the former; this was a Space Marine seriously juiced up on Chaos and psychic energy (see Kor Phaeron vs. Guilliman); for the latter, we don't know much except that he was seriously outnumbered. Curze's vision describes "dragged down by a hundred murderers in a dark tunnel, their knives and swords wet with the warriors blood" (although obviously, this is not the most accurate).
Thing is if Primarchs are really so incredibly powerful, it means that chaos made Luther (who was not even a proper marine) much more powerful than Abaddon, and indeed any other chaos marine ever. This just doesn't seem right to me.
We don't know how Abaddon would fair against a Primarch, nor the details of Luther (as I've said already) or his then-psychic abilities (of which Abaddon appears to have none), or if Chaos actually wants to retain Abaddon's stalemate with the Imperium.
So are we actually agreeing that a power sword wielded by a (almost) normal human can cut Primarch's flesh? And Lascannons and missiles can hurt and kill them unless they're armoured or dodge? And that a Primarch might not be much more powerful than Abaddon or other mighty Chaos Champion (Ahriman, for example)?
For that matter, where was it stated that she did it in one blow? Or two? Or in less than than hour of straight cutting?
Crimson wrote: And that a Primarch might not be much more powerful than Abaddon or other mighty Chaos Champion ?
If you can provide feats from the fluff that show Abaddon and other marines performing feats on par with what we've seen from the Primarchs in the HH series, then sure.
Crimson wrote: So are we actually agreeing that a power sword wielded by a (almost) normal human can cut Primarch's flesh?
Definitely. There's multiple instances on Primarchs being wounded; it's just typically by another Primarch. Unless the Primarch is willing to die (Curze) or seriously outnumbered (Dorn, we assume), it's unlikely a standard dude would be able to do much more than wound (and one at least has wounded Curze in the past), due to the sheer ability of the Primarchs.
And Lascannons and missiles can hurt and kill them unless they're armoured or dodge?
I don't see why not. I've not seen anything to suggest otherwise, although I'd assume it would take significantly more than one lascannon/missile to actually kill a Primarch.
And that a Primarch might not be much more powerful than Abaddon or other mighty Chaos Champion (Ahriman, for example)?
I'd imagine they'd be more powerful than both, significantly so IMHO. More so for Abaddon (that would be a straight fight afterall), but possibly not masses more so than Ahriman, due to the sheer power of psychic powers.
As I said: "I never stated the Primarch's to be anything-proof, but they are extremely tough."
The fact that the universe still (mostly) functions like our own. You can't have living beings with tank-level durability without completely changing the laws of physics
Stop abusing the laws of physics for your argument. Physics does not define 'meat' v.s. 'armour'.
Furthermore, Superman is made of meat, Hulk is made of meat, Thor is made of meat. Fictional meat is hardcore.
BlaxicanX wrote: Where was it stated that she used a power sword?
For that matter, where was it stated that she did it in one blow? Or two? Or in less than than hour of straight cutting?
Yes, she must have used industrial sized plasma-buzzsaw, intended for cutting parts for Land Raiders. Then, over the course of few days she slowly cut Curze's head off, while he laid there waiting for it to be over. Mind you, she had to replace the blade several times as it kept breaking against the Primarch's flesh.
If you can provide feats from the fluff that show Abaddon and other marines performing feats on par with what we've seen from the Primarchs in the HH series, then sure.
We have evidence for a Chaos Champion, Luther, challenging a Primarch.
Luther was all kinds of juiced up when he fought The Lion. :|
As for the Curze thing, powerswords kind of have this thing called a powerfield, which I'm sure could be handy. It's also worth noting that the assassins in 40k are pretty far removed from normal humans.
Hell, it's entirely possible Curze died by his own hand after that recording ended.
The fact that the universe still (mostly) functions like our own. You can't have living beings with tank-level durability without completely changing the laws of physics
Stop abusing the laws of physics for your argument. Physics does not define 'meat' v.s. 'armour'.
Furthermore, Superman is made of meat, Hulk is made of meat, Thor is made of meat. Fictional meat is hardcore.
Superman and Hulk are also functionally magic / plot armor.
Which is his point.
And physics actually does define meat vs armor, at least insofar as density and strength is concerned.
The fact that the universe still (mostly) functions like our own. You can't have living beings with tank-level durability without completely changing the laws of physics
Stop abusing the laws of physics for your argument. Physics does not define 'meat' v.s. 'armour'.
Furthermore, Superman is made of meat, Hulk is made of meat, Thor is made of meat. Fictional meat is hardcore.
Superman and Hulk are also functionally magic / plot armor.
Which is his point.
And physics actually does define meat vs armor, at least insofar as density and strength is concerned.
Actually hulk is made of Gamma Radiation that instantly regenerates.
Thor and superman have alien chemistry that avoid such things.
Neither Superman or Hulk are magical. And you'd deny either one are insanely durable, instead deciding that they're only protected by plot armour? Neither Hulk nor Superman need plot armour to be able to soak incredible damage.
Physics does no such thing, it cares about density, conductivity, tensile strength, ect, it doesn't care whether the object being quantified is meat or not.
Definitely. There's multiple instances on Primarchs being wounded; it's just typically by another Primarch. Unless the Primarch is willing to die (Curze) or seriously outnumbered (Dorn, we assume), it's unlikely a standard dude would be able to do much more than wound (and one at least has wounded Curze in the past), due to the sheer ability of the Primarchs.
Then we agree here.
I don't see why not. I've not seen anything to suggest otherwise, although I'd assume it would take significantly more than one lascannon/missile to actually kill a Primarch.
Yeah, probably, unless it was 'naked Primarch strapped on a table and a doomlazor pointed at him' type of a deal.
I'd imagine they'd be more powerful than both, significantly so IMHO. More so for Abaddon (that would be a straight fight afterall), but possibly not masses more so than Ahriman, due to the sheer power of psychic powers.
Yes, I agree that a Primarch is more powerful than even a mighty Chaos Lord, but not so much that it would be completely one sided fight. With some luck a mighty Chaos Champion could still challenge a Primarch, just like Luther did.
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ScreamPaste wrote: Luther was all kinds of juiced up when he fought The Lion. :|
Yes, he was, and so are other Chaos Champion too.
As for the Curze thing, powerswords kind of have this thing called a powerfield, which I'm sure could be handy. It's also worth noting that the assassins in 40k are pretty far removed from normal humans.
Powersword are not more deadly than missiles, lascannons, plasmaguns and all sort of other weapons that Primarchs may be shot with in any battle, not even when wielded by an assassin.
Definitely. There's multiple instances on Primarchs being wounded; it's just typically by another Primarch. Unless the Primarch is willing to die (Curze) or seriously outnumbered (Dorn, we assume), it's unlikely a standard dude would be able to do much more than wound (and one at least has wounded Curze in the past), due to the sheer ability of the Primarchs.
Then we agree here.
I don't see why not. I've not seen anything to suggest otherwise, although I'd assume it would take significantly more than one lascannon/missile to actually kill a Primarch.
Yeah, probably, unless it was 'naked Primarch strapped on a table and a doomlazor pointed at him' type of a deal.
Exactly, and agreed!
With both these instances it requires the Primarch to be vulnerable. For, in Curze's example a dude jumped him from behind whilst he was otherwise, seriously preoccupied.
So they can most certainly be damaged or even killed by such weapons; but due to a combination of ability, general toughness and plot-armour; it's unlikely to happen in a conventional fight.
I'd imagine they'd be more powerful than both, significantly so IMHO. More so for Abaddon (that would be a straight fight afterall), but possibly not masses more so than Ahriman, due to the sheer power of psychic powers.
Yes, I agree that a Primarch is more powerful than even a mighty Chaos Lord, but not so much that it would be completely one sided fight. With some luck a mighty Chaos Champion could still challenge a Primarch, just like Luther did.
To an extent I agree... I personally believe it would be an almost completely one-sided fight unless said Chaos Lord had some psychic mojo or serious Chaos backing, IMHO.
For example, a Primarch would almost definitely rip Kharn (or Lucius minus regen.) to pieces, but Ahriman for example would put up much more of a fight; like Kor Phaeron before. That said, this Chaos Lord vs. Primarch thing is much less "factual" than the above regarding their toughness.
Powersword are not more deadly than missiles, lascannons, plasmaguns and all sort of other weapons that Primarchs may be shot with in any battle, not even when wielded by an assassin.
Prove this.
Powerfields are pretty much the best bet in 40k for overcoming a substance durable enough to handle a macrocannon shot.
Besides which point we don't really know how Curze died, again you're dragging it into speculation and hoping what happened off screen can contradict what we know has happened on screen.
Of course they are. Whether or not it's called "magic" in the story it works the same as magic.
Physics does no such thing, it cares about density, conductivity, tensile strength, ect, it doesn't care whether the object being quantified is meat or not.
Yes, and meat has certain ranges of density/conductivity/tensile strength/etc, otherwise it isn't meat. You can't make muscle tissue have the same physical properties as a solid block of depleted uranium without making it out of a solid block of depleted uranium, at which point it will no longer function as muscle.
Easily. If power weapons are really that great then an anti-tank missile will consist of a power sword strapped to an engine. The missile will always be more powerful than the sword, unless you resort to magic and cast a "swords are awesome" spell that, because of magic, only applies to swords.
So now I've to prove that in 40K lascannons are more powerful than power swords? I think next we will debate whether Ogryns are stronger than Gretchin or which is tougher tank Chimera or Baneblade.
And it has been in fluff for ages that Kurze was killed by Callidus Assassin M'Shen. But of course maybe he actually felt sorry for poor assassin after she had broken her power sword against his neck, and with his superhuman might ripped his own head off.
Crimson wrote: So now I've to prove that in 40K lascannons are more powerful than power swords? I think next we will debate whether Ogryns are stronger than Gretchin or which is tougher tank Chimera or Baneblade.
And it has been in fluff for ages that Kurze was killed by Callidus Assassin M'Shen. But of course maybe he actually felt sorry for poor assassin after she had broken her power sword against his neck, and with his superhuman might ripped his own head off.
Hey, we came to a very reasonable conclusion IMHO; I'd take that and run if I were you.
You can't make muscle tissue have the same physical properties as a solid block of depleted uranium
Then it wouldn't be mobile, of course not. You can however have muscle tissues with high flexibility as well as incredible tensile and compressive strengths, however.
Of course they are. Whether or not it's called "magic" in the story it works the same as magic.
I'm mostly quoting this to make sure you actually typed it. Superman is so blatantly non-magical he specifically has no resistance to magic in universe.
Easily. If power weapons are really that great then an anti-tank missile will consist of a power sword strapped to an engine. The missile will always be more powerful than the sword, unless you resort to magic and cast a "swords are awesome" spell that, because of magic, only applies to swords.
Speculation, I see.
So strapping expensive, complicated powerfields to engines so that you can basically stick a bunch of cost-inefficient spears into enemy tanks without actually disabling them due to the damage being largely superficial because of small area of effect would be the ultimate weapon?
No explosive to damage important components, disable weaponry not directly hit, or rock the tank? Way too espenive and costly for use?
Power weapons are effective against tanks... When properly used by strong enough wielders. Due to their powerfields. But one shot missiles that stick a spike into a tank would be pointless.
Sparks_Havelock wrote: As I said I view things from the perspective of the 40k era, not from the era when it may have happened, when much has been forgotten and what is remembered is distorted & bloated with the telling over so many thousands of years. Yes it may have happened but when you look at it from the perspective of the 41st millenium, did it really happen that way or is it just propaganda to help bolster faith in the God-Emperor?
That's not the point, I am talking from OUR point of perspective - the reader's pow. While people inside 40k universe have never been there and witnessed that we as readers of BL books and officilal codex script were because writers took us there and told us: "this happened". And they cannot tell propaganda to us because when we read the book we read from 3'rd point where the only thin you can see are true facts adn not just some random telling.
By same logic Battle of Terra never happened, because it is a myth to 40k people - even to the Space Marine chapters who's ancestors were part of it. Same can be told for Grey Knights - they don't exist in 40k lore because nobody except few individuals knows about them. No matter if we as readers know almost everything about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alexander, there are many pieces of GW fluff that are written from similarly neutral perspective, yet they contradict each other. It all cannot be true at the same time.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: While people inside 40k universe have never been there and witnessed that we as readers of BL books and officilal codex script were because writers took us there and told us: "this happened".
Except that's not true. Read the quote from one of the BL authors saying that their books are NOT absolute truth, and contain various lies/exaggerations/etc.
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ScreamPaste wrote: Then it wouldn't be mobile, of course not. You can however have muscle tissues with high flexibility as well as incredible tensile and compressive strengths, however.
So do you actually have any evidence that the primarchs were made out of some kind of advanced heavy-metal super-muscle rather than being the flesh and blood creatures they're portrayed as?
I'm mostly quoting this to make sure you actually typed it. Superman is so blatantly non-magical he specifically has no resistance to magic in universe.
The fact that some magic is specifically called "magic" in-universe and other magic isn't has nothing to do with whether it's magic or not. What you're doing is the equivalent of taking a priest's statement as absolute truth when he says that casting "remove demonic possession" is a divine miracle while casting "make her fall in love with me" is satanic magic. And that's just pointless nitpicking over terms, functionally they're both magic.
No explosive to damage important components, disable weaponry not directly hit, or rock the tank? Way too espenive and costly for use?
I thought we just said that power weapons were the best way of destroying a tank?
Power weapons are effective against tanks... When properly used by strong enough wielders. Due to their powerfields.
I thought that the whole point of a power weapon is that you DON'T need high strength to cut through things. You know, because you have a power field doing all the cutting work while you just have to get the sword to hit the target.
But one shot missiles that stick a spike into a tank would be pointless.
Unless of course you use a power field to penetrate the armor and an explosive warhead to do the damage once it gets through.
Except that's not true. Read the quote from one of the BL authors saying that their books are NOT absolute truth, and contain various lies/exaggerations/etc.
That same quote says the exact same about the Codexes as well. It's basically a cop-out explaining contradictions and such. There are general truths accepted about 40K. The majority that we 'know', however, is said (if I recall correctly) to not necessarily be true.
So do you actually have any evidence that the primarchs were made out of some kind of advanced heavy-metal super-muscle rather than being the flesh and blood creatures they're portrayed as?
There's evidence that they're basically Warp constructs. As I recall when Ferrus Manus was beheaded there was an explosion of Warp energy. They're not just flesh and blood (and besides, most of the background about them being hit by weaponry has them surviving what would kill or cripple a Space Marine. Artificer armour isn't that good.).
I thought we just said that power weapons were the best way of destroying a tank?
Not necessarily the best way. But a good way.
I thought that the whole point of a power weapon is that you DON'T need high strength to cut through things. You know, because you have a power field doing all the cutting work while you just have to get the sword to hit the target.
The power field doesn't cut (in most background, at least). It 'softens' armour. Force is still necessary. A power sword would probably cut easier than a power fist but it affects less of an area.
Unless of course you use a power field to penetrate the armor and an explosive warhead to do the damage once it gets through.
Which is still hideously expensive for something that can't be reused. Power weapons aren't that cheap in the background.
Except that's not true. Read the quote from one of the BL authors saying that their books are NOT absolute truth, and contain various lies/exaggerations/etc.
So you missed the genius quote right bellow it:
"Which is essentially him copping out and refusing to commit to anything, in the event of bad continuity or things being revised. However since this board is about fluff. I think we need to accept the cannon as being truth, in order to discuss it. To turn up and say 'it's all lies' undermines the whole idea."
They are basically contradicting themselves, books should show us the ultimate truth when we read the story from our perspective. If they are not 100% accurate then they are nothign more than fanfiction when compared to the rest of franchise.
rems01 wrote: Heresy Betrayal sheds more light on this event.
To paraphrase the Emperor with a force of Custodes led the Luna Wolves and Horus on an attack on an Ork planet. Now this ork planet was rather special, it was entirely artificial, constructed from scrap etc and held together through some piece of Dark Age gravity tech. It was essentially a planet sized space hulk or ork rok.
On this planet the orks were of an immense size, nobs were as large as dreadnoughts. So a warboss of these was truly terrifying.
During the battle the emperor and his custodes become separated from the Luna Wolves and surrounded by orks. Battling for hours the Emperor is temporarily dazed/overcome be the sheer amount of firepower etc directed at him. (I assume his psychic shields gave out under the immense stress they were under). In his moment of weakness a warboss of these exceptional orks wrapped his paws around the emperor's neck. An instant later Horus was there and cut the ork's arms off.
It never says that the emperor was choking to death, or in mortal peril.
I'm not sure if it is still so but that ork warboss was known only as "the Beast" and was said to be the strongest ork in history.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: That same quote says the exact same about the Codexes as well. It's basically a cop-out explaining contradictions and such. There are general truths accepted about 40K. The majority that we 'know', however, is said (if I recall correctly) to not necessarily be true.
Exactly. Nothing in 40k is absolutely certain, so how valid a bit of fluff is depends on how plausible it is. A story saying "100 guardsmen attacked a position, 99 of them died but the last one managed to raise the regimental banner before being shot by enemy reinforcements" is plausible and there's no reason to doubt it. A story saying "primarch X survived a lascannon shot to the face" is not plausible so it makes more sense to dismiss it as part of the heroic legend of the primarchs, not a real event.
There's evidence that they're basically Warp constructs. As I recall when Ferrus Manus was beheaded there was an explosion of Warp energy. They're not just flesh and blood (and besides, most of the background about them being hit by weaponry has them surviving what would kill or cripple a Space Marine. Artificer armour isn't that good.).
There's evidence that they're basically Warp constructs. As I recall when Ferrus Manus was beheaded there was an explosion of Warp energy. They're not just flesh and blood (and besides, most of the background about them being hit by weaponry has them surviving what would kill or cripple a Space Marine. Artificer armour isn't that good.).
So basically, Warp magic, which is even sometimes called magic in-universe. Lol.
Basically, yes. Which makes it plausible within the setting. Primarchs were\are not just a bit better than Space Marines. They're powerful creatures capable of challenging the more powerful (and prepared) Greater Daemons in their right.
On the other hand, I wish Greater Daemons (and lesser Daemons, actually) were more powerful than they're generally portrayed as (I'm still not against Primarchs defeating them). But still, how the background typically portrays it is how it probably should be seen. And in the vast majority of background about them, Primarchs are ludicrously tough against, well anything that doesn't have a power field or is Daemonically-enhanced. Or a massively powerful Psychic attack. Which are the only ways a Primarch has been 'definitively' killed.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: That same quote says the exact same about the Codexes as well. It's basically a cop-out explaining contradictions and such. There are general truths accepted about 40K. The majority that we 'know', however, is said (if I recall correctly) to not necessarily be true.
Exactly. Nothing in 40k is absolutely certain, so how valid a bit of fluff is depends on how plausible it is. A story saying "100 guardsmen attacked a position, 99 of them died but the last one managed to raise the regimental banner before being shot by enemy reinforcements" is plausible and there's no reason to doubt it. A story saying "primarch X survived a lascannon shot to the face" is not plausible so it makes more sense to dismiss it as part of the heroic legend of the primarchs, not a real event.
There's evidence that they're basically Warp constructs. As I recall when Ferrus Manus was beheaded there was an explosion of Warp energy. They're not just flesh and blood (and besides, most of the background about them being hit by weaponry has them surviving what would kill or cripple a Space Marine. Artificer armour isn't that good.).
IOW, "it's magic".
It does not fall to you to determine how other readers are or are not allowed to interpret fiction. The very definition of fiction could be summarized as "not real", which means that "Real" logic need not apply.
In reality, occam's razor is a valid (if not a little trite) way of determining if something is plausible or not. In 40k, Occam's razor is perhaps the most foolish way of thinking I can imagine.
Our world does not contain the bulk of the elements found in this fiction (magic, daemons, alien hordes, sci-fantasy lasers, etc). Following that line of logic, we can't dismiss a Primarch being killed by a lascanon just because that same weapon would have killed a guardsman. There is nothing to say that the Primarchs could not just will the attack to redirect, or nullify it's effect with a psychic barrier or some other perfectly viable defense that logically exists in that universe.
During the siege of Terra at the steps of the Imperial Palace, the mightiest Bloodthirster of Khorne bellowed out insults to the defending Space Marines and smashed Sanguinius to the ground. Sanguinius proceeded to leap into the sky, hoist the titanic creature over his knee like a ragdoll and snap him in two, throwing his corpse back the legions of chaos! How is that even remotely typical of a guardsman? how can that kind of act be called "normal"... It can't!
Plot armor only applies in a situation where the character it protects would otherwise have died. If I, a normal man, were shot by a bullet, the only defense would be plot armor... I would have to survive because I poses no other means of living through a bullet to my cranium. Primarchs are not vulnerable to that, and thusly, need no plot armor to shrug off a bullet, or in this case, a lascanon
Primarchs were\are not just a bit better than Space Marines.
Actually no.
As I recall, the Emperor is the Primarchs what a Primarch is the Space Marines. It's tough to gauge the scale but it's hard to reason it being a "small step" from SM to Primarch when if that same step from Primarch to Emperor suddenly means so much more.
Space Marines are not typically able to revive the dead by psychic might. Or (from a completely broken body) summon the strength of will enough to completely erase a person from existence (and in so doing manage to scare the piss out of all four chaos gods at once).
En Excelsis wrote: During the siege of Terra at the steps of the Imperial Palace, the mightiest Bloodthirster of Khorne bellowed out insults to the defending Space Marines and smashed Sanguinius to the ground. Sanguinius proceeded to leap into the sky, hoist the titanic creature over his knee like a ragdoll and snap him in two, throwing his corpse back the legions of chaos! How is that even remotely typical of a guardsman? how can that kind of act be called "normal"... It can't!
And this is exactly what the author is talking about: 40k fiction is full of wild exaggeration and in-universe propaganda. The novels are an attempt to present the heroic tales of legendary figures as a person in the 40k universe would hear them, not an objective account of purely factual events. Rather than attempt to explain things like this the simplest answer is just that, if it happened at all, the real event was much less impressive.
that would make an amazing epitaph. "Here lies the God Emperor of Mankind, ruler of the holy Terran Empire. Greatest living psychic, warrior, orator and just general badass wizard. Choked by Grotznutz, a disgruntled Ork latrine digger, for sandwich theft most dire"
oh and isn't most of the fluff about the history of the imperium supposed to sound like the bible, like wild as stuff that's been exaggerated over time (i fully accept i may be asked to leave the forum for suggesting this, no offence intended )
So do you actually have any evidence that the primarchs were made out of some kind of advanced heavy-metal super-muscle rather than being the flesh and blood creatures they're portrayed as?
A lot more of it than you have evidence that their flesh is soft and vulnerable.
Crashing through the crust of a planet, crawling out of a volcano as an infant, surviving on Caliban, where the local wildlife frequently brought down multiple men in power armout single handedly for over a decade as just a child, taking thunder hammer blows to the skull, being shot with anti tank weaponry, being shot with macro cannons, physically dominating a blood thirster, ect, ect.
Primarchs were made of very tough stuff.
The fact that some magic is specifically called "magic" in-universe and other magic isn't has nothing to do with whether it's magic or not. What you're doing is the equivalent of taking a priest's statement as absolute truth when he says that casting "remove demonic possession" is a divine miracle while casting "make her fall in love with me" is satanic magic. And that's just pointless nitpicking over terms, functionally they're both magic.
Everything you just said is ridiculous, and largely irrelevant.
Superman is not magic, he's a super durable alien. Period.
I thought we just said that power weapons were the best way of destroying a tank?
Not only is that not what I said, you're strawmanning.
ScreamPaste wrote:Crashing through the crust of a planet, crawling out of a volcano as an infant, surviving on Caliban, where the local wildlife frequently brought down multiple men in power armout single handedly for over a decade as just a child, taking thunder hammer blows to the skull, being shot with anti tank weaponry, being shot with macro cannons, physically dominating a blood thirster, ect, ect.
Don't forget that they can also pick up entire mountains with one arm, and then carry them across oceans to set them down on another continent again. Because that's totally what the old texts say, and they are never wrong!
[edit] Actually, this reinforces the idea that the Primarchs must truly have been 20 feet high too. After all, you'd need a fairly big hand for a mountain. /philosoraptor
En Excelsis wrote: During the siege of Terra at the steps of the Imperial Palace, the mightiest Bloodthirster of Khorne bellowed out insults to the defending Space Marines and smashed Sanguinius to the ground. Sanguinius proceeded to leap into the sky, hoist the titanic creature over his knee like a ragdoll and snap him in two, throwing his corpse back the legions of chaos! How is that even remotely typical of a guardsman? how can that kind of act be called "normal"... It can't!
And this is exactly what the author is talking about: 40k fiction is full of wild exaggeration and in-universe propaganda. The novels are an attempt to present the heroic tales of legendary figures as a person in the 40k universe would hear them, not an objective account of purely factual events. Rather than attempt to explain things like this the simplest answer is just that, if it happened at all, the real event was much less impressive.
it is just as fallible that we should just write it of on the pretense that it was written with some sort of bias. Everything is.
I won't get too esoteric here but that's why religion in our world still even exists. The contents of the Christian Bible are no more or less factually validated than any other piece of human history. If those events could be genuinely disproven than religion as we know it would not exist. Since no man alive today was present 2000 years ago than the only means we have of understanding history at all is the written or verbal record of it. What you choose to believe is based on choice not the availability of factual evidence. It's the continuation of knowledge that my father taught me what his father taught him. No one alive today can validate anything that my grandfather's father was taught.
If you look at everything from the perspective that it is incorrect (or just greatly exaggerated) based solely on the grounds that time has passed between the event and the telling of it, than you can discount the entire sum of human knowledge. Or in this case, the entire fictional background of WH40k.
By your logic the Horus Heresy wasn't really a civil war, and Horus never really dueled the Emperor, it was all just an arm wrestling competition. How many other parts of the game's history are "just exaggerated"?
En Excelsis wrote: If you look at everything from the perspective that it is incorrect (or just greatly exaggerated) based solely on the grounds that time has passed between the event and the telling of it, than you can discount the entire sum of human knowledge.
Sigh.
This isn't about supposed age of the knowledge, it's about the fact that we have a statement from a BL author saying "we exaggerate and portray heroic adventures that didn't actually happen in the 'real' world in 40k". Therefore when we see events that go way beyond what makes any sense the obvious explanation is that it is one of those admitted cases where we're looking at in-universe heroic exaggeration.
En Excelsis wrote: If you look at everything from the perspective that it is incorrect (or just greatly exaggerated) based solely on the grounds that time has passed between the event and the telling of it, than you can discount the entire sum of human knowledge.
Sigh.
This isn't about supposed age of the knowledge, it's about the fact that we have a statement from a BL author saying "we exaggerate and portray heroic adventures that didn't actually happen in the 'real' world in 40k". Therefore when we see events that go way beyond what makes any sense the obvious explanation is that it is one of those admitted cases where we're looking at in-universe heroic exaggeration.
Sounds like the easiest way to just discount whatever conflicts with your point of view.
En Excelsis wrote: If you look at everything from the perspective that it is incorrect (or just greatly exaggerated) based solely on the grounds that time has passed between the event and the telling of it, than you can discount the entire sum of human knowledge.
Sigh.
This isn't about supposed age of the knowledge, it's about the fact that we have a statement from a BL author saying "we exaggerate and portray heroic adventures that didn't actually happen in the 'real' world in 40k". Therefore when we see events that go way beyond what makes any sense the obvious explanation is that it is one of those admitted cases where we're looking at in-universe heroic exaggeration.
Sounds like the easiest way to just discount whatever conflicts with your point of view.
En Excelsis wrote: Sounds like the easiest way to just discount whatever conflicts with your point of view.
Yeah, I'm clearly just trying to dismiss something I don't like when I believe an author who says "we exaggerate and lie about the 'real' events to make a heroic story, don't take this literally".
En Excelsis wrote: Sounds like the easiest way to just discount whatever conflicts with your point of view.
Yeah, I'm clearly just trying to dismiss something I don't like when I believe an author who says "we exaggerate and lie about the 'real' events to make a heroic story, don't take this literally".
So than why argue about the contents of the story at all? Would not be equally logical to just dismiss everything in this same way? Where does that line get drawn?
Peregrine wrote: And this is exactly what the author is talking about: 40k fiction is full of wild exaggeration and in-universe propaganda. The novels are an attempt to present the heroic tales of legendary figures as a person in the 40k universe would hear them, not an objective account of purely factual events. Rather than attempt to explain things like this the simplest answer is just that, if it happened at all, the real event was much less impressive.
By that reasoning daemons aren't real either. In fact most of the stuff in 40k is too fantastical to exist in our universe. Why pick and choose?
Furthermore it is part of the narrative that the Emperor is a supreme being with immense psychic power, and dark knowledge of sciences far beyond anything we have now. And the primarchs were his masterpiece. He created them to be super weapons, that would enable him to conquer the galaxy. You can't say what kind of physics was involved in their construction. Even to people in the 40k universe it is a mystery. No one else has been able to reproduce his work. and Fabius Bile has spent the last 10,000 years trying. That alone speaks of how unique and extraordinary it was.
Your explanation isn't the simplest, because it not only fails to explain but contradict huge parts of the narrative.
1: If the Primarchs are much less impressive, then why did the Emperor create them in the first place?
Your theory fails to explain this. The Emperor wanted super weapons. If all he was going to get was mediocre weapons, why would he bother?
2: Why were the Chaos gods so scared of them that they united to destroy them?
Again if they are unimpressive, why would the gods care? Let alone put aside their differences and team up.
3: If the Emperor is less impressive, how come all 4 Chaos gods combined are still too weak to destroy his creation.
They wanted them dead, but had to settle for scattering. This suggests that the Emperor is indeed very powerful.
4: Why did the Emperor put so much energy into finding them?
If the were unimpressive, why bother? or why not make them again? Or try something else?
5: How come they conquered that galaxy?
They did which would indicate they were capable of doing so. The fact that the Human empire still exists is testament to this.
A correct theory should explain the fantastical feats mentioned in the fluff, and answer all of the above. Yours does not.
Crimson wrote: How can a power sword decapitate a being that is can shrug off lascannon shots?
Well, probably the best answer I can think of is that M'Shen, as a Callidus Assassin, doesn't wield a fething power sword. She wields a C'tan Phase Blade, also known as the weapon of a friggin' star god, which are defined by their ability to cut through [/I]any[/I] material within the setting, regardless of their durability.
Consider this a checkmate.
How can such being challenged by a mere chaos marine?
"Although the Primarch possessed immense
power, the two opponents were equally matched, for Luther's
abilities were enhanced by vast forces gifted to him by the
Dark Gods. What followed was a fight of titanic proportions.
As tl1e two adversaries traded blows, shock waves shook tl1e
monastery, causing chunks of masonry to crash down around
them."
- Dark Angels codex, page 9
Luther was explicitly gifted with power rivaling Jonson's by the Dark Gods. This is true of exactly no other Chaos Champion, you can speculate all you want, but that is all it will ever be.
If that still does not convince you:
"Upon hearing that sound, the Chaos Gods realised
that, once more, they had been denied. They howled in
frustration, and across the galaxy psykers fell to their knees.
So powerful was the cry that a rent appeared in the fabric of
space and a Warp storm emerged to engulf what remained
of Cali ban. Those 'Fallen' Dark Angels who had served
under Luther were sucked from the broken surface into
the Warp and cast throughout time and space. The remains
of Cali ban, weakened by the bombardment, were ripped
asunder, destroyed in a last apocalyptic explosion."
- Also page 9
Strange, I don't recall this ever occurring during Abaddon's failed Black Crusades... Clearly they had a lot to gain through Luther.
Fasten your seatbelts boys and girls, I'm about to destroy this thread.
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Peregrine wrote: Yes. This is simple physics here, heavy weapons that turn tanks into smoking wrecks do even worse things to meat. The only way to have a primarch survive that kind of fire is if their bones/internal organs/etc are all made out of tank armor. And since we see primarchs that look like giant humans with normal human flesh/blood/etc it just isn't possible. Nitpick all you want about whether it would take an RPG or something heavier, but a battlefield is full of things that will do the job. And if all else fails there's always nukes/orbital bombardment/etc.
This argument hinges on the hilarious notion that 40k is at all grounded in reality. It isn't. Not when you have normal human men snapping the necks of Tyranid Warriors, or guys like Yarrick who can take a headbutt from an Ork the size of a dreadnought.
And as ScreamPaste has repeatedly pointed out, no, metal>meat is not in fact a scientifically grounded argument, and is entirely irrelevant anyway, considering the Primarchs were created partially from the Warp. Aka, they're made of magic.
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Sparks_Havelock wrote: Actually it is a case of differing interpretations. I've not read, nor do I wish to read, the BL Horus Heresy books and I've no wish to delve into 30k. For me the Horus Heresy is a collection of myths, legends, extorted tales of deeds, heroism, darkness, woe, sacrifice, suffering and ultimately 'victory' for the Imperium & the God-Emperor. For me the Horus Heresy is shrouded in mystery, the tales of it bloated and exaggerated, the few names remembered, where they are remembered, are used to frighten children into obedience. The Primarch's, where people know of them, are seen as demi-Gods, the disciples of the great and holy God-Emperor, unmatched in battle, incredible leaders of humanity, strong and powerful individuals - and whilst they were powerful compared to humans/Astartes, the tales of their prowess are exaggerated for religious propaganda, when in reality they were incredibly powerful compared to a human or Astartes but not on par with Greater Daemons.
The Primarchs have never been portrayed as less than Greater Daemons.
"Might rivaling the Primarchs" was 1e's official description of Bloodthirsters.
You can ignore the fluff if you want for your personal canon, but your "interpretation" has no foundation on a fluff discussion forum.
If you refuse to discuss what the fluff actually states, why do you comment on it?
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vir6 wrote: Sorry but the idea of it all is just as stupid as superman getting shot in the eye in that terrible movie, I can buy a primarch never getting shot in the face or getting hit with what ever the feth because of his "experience" but I cant buy that if it happened they just shrug bullets and rockets to the face off, its to much for me even for scifi and even for poorly written scifi.
This isn't really related to the topic, but deserves commentary: There seems to be a point of view that simply because a work of fiction contains a high level of power, it must be "stupid", or "juvenile".
This is a very shallow viewpoint, just as shallow as people who only read fiction for LOLMICHAELBAY11!111!EXPLOSIONS!!!OVER9000!!!1111!! feats of raw power, since it refuses to look deeper than the surface of a work.
Kingdom Come is a great work of fiction, one that is testament to the whole medium it is a part of. It also contains Superman taking a nuclear missile to the face and surviving. All Star Superman is also great, and has Superman punching a planet into another dimension (There might be some context here...).
I guess what I am saying is: Please keep petty biases from eroding your objectivity, please.
Void__Dragon wrote: This argument hinges on the hilarious notion that 40k is at all grounded in reality. It isn't. Not when you have normal human men snapping the necks of Tyranid Warriors, or guys like Yarrick who can take a headbutt from an Ork the size of a dreadnought.
Fine. Nothing in 40k is realistic, therefore any argument is as valid as any other. Marbo kills the emperor and all of the primarchs with a laspistol shot. /thread
Lynata wrote: But that's what the background suggests - by omitting anything special about it.
The background doesn't suggest anything, because it says almost nothing on it. That's just what you want it to be.
Surely you have read about the circumstances of Dorn's last fight, and that the Chaos vessel "Sword of Sacrilege" was just one of many in a fleet which the Imperial Fists tried to board in a series of hit&run actions to give their outnumbered strike cruisers a chance?
One of many Battleship class starships? Man, this must have been some Black Crusade...
It may also be of note that the second wave of Dorn's Marines were able to successfully capture that ship, which is how they were able to recover his remains after all - so if there really were "a hundred lascannons" installed on that small bridge as you suggest, apparently they've all been removed in the short time it took the remaining Imperial Fists to arrive.
Clearly Dorn destroyed the vast majority of them.
Regardless, this is a piece of non-evidence. You have no context, no actual examples to disprove the other fluff examples of the formidability of a Primarch. Only a vague passage where a Primarch happened to die. Most of the Loyalist Primarchs tend to have their disappearance not described very thoroughly, likely to create a sense of mystery towards what happened, and in some cases what they could be doing now.
Oh, and the very article you clutch to, in descriptions of the Iron Cage, describes Dorn as a "colossus who personally turned back attack after attack".
I still think you're taking that stuff way too literal - just like in that other thread where you tried to defend the realism behind a Space Marine literally taking a millionth of a second to stab another guy because that's what it said in the novel.
Well you see Lynata, unlike you, I don't like at 40k and see a "realistic" setting. When I want my gritty realism, I'll watch Gran Torino or There Will Be Blood, I won't read 40k.
And to answer your question in that thread that I forgot to respond to, yes, I know how fast someone would be to swing a sword in a millionth of a second. Mach 3,000, for a lower end figure.
Though you recall the thread wrong, I did that in response to Spartan supporters wanting to make this a book-based feat war, and demonstrated in such a debate the Marine is not chanceless.
Honestly, if you absolutely want to delve into such a "hyper-emphasised" version of the setting, knock yourself out - as mentioned, neither of us can be wrong here. I still think it's a bit silly, but that is of course merely a matter of personal preferences.
In that instance Dan Abnett really wanted to hammer home the "millisecond" thing. He did the same in his useo of nanosecond.
I'll leave that to the people who actually read it - but I do know that the HH novels apparently cannot even decide on a Primarch's hair colour.
Ah, Sanguinius. Yes, that is an example of a contradiction (Or of a Primarch dyeing his hair because he's kind of a prima donna, I'd believe both), but it is a very minor one, and I still have yet to hear a major contradiction towards the prowess of Primarchs.
This is 40k - we have no "canon" here. We cannot just pretend because then we'd spend half our time debating which of the many conflicting accounts and contradictory books we should go by.
Yes, it really sucks for discussions about the background, but them's the breaks. For what it's worth, most of the time we still manage to find some sort of common ground, although that depends greatly on what level of detail we'd be talking to.
It's why I tend to phrase most of my posts regarding the fluff more like suggestions ("well in GW's books it says that [...]") or questions ("don't you think that [...]") rather than attempting to state facts. Not always, but it is something I try to keep in mind.
That's true, 40k explicitly has a very loose definition of canon.
But provide those conflicting accounts of Primarch formidability please?
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Peregrine wrote: Fine. Nothing in 40k is realistic, therefore any argument is as valid as any other. Marbo kills the emperor and all of the primarchs with a laspistol shot. /thread
Your strawman has no power over a being of my standing.
There is no fluff to really justify a claim that Marbo can kill the Emperor and the Primarchs with a laspistol, whereas there is a lot of fluff pointing to the Primarchs being walking demigods, much like Greater Daemons are.
It's almost as if a superhuman being who can hold back the flow of Chaos and happens to be worshipped as a deity by a signifigant portion of the setting created them from his own body... Oh wait...
Void__Dragon wrote: There is no fluff to really justify a claim that Marbo can kill the Emperor and the Primarchs with a laspistol, whereas there is a lot of fluff pointing to the Primarchs being walking demigods, much like Greater Daemons are.
Your argument based on realism has no place in 40k. Marbo could effortlessly kill all 20 primarchs with one pistol shot.
It's almost as if a superhuman being who can hold back the flow of Chaos and happens to be worshipped as a deity by a signifigant portion of the setting created them from his own body... Oh wait...
Yeah. Marbo created the primarchs, Marbo can kill the primarchs.
Selym wrote: Actually, I think the reason why primarchs seem so powerful is in a large part due to their martial skill. Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough, and the same concept applies to the primarchs. What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that the Primarchs weren't gods at all, they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons. But they wore artificer armour (making them tougher than a tank), they had the martial skill to best a hundred men in CC, not simply infinite strength.
Thier power in the HH series is a mix of being slightly genetically superior to a normal SM, skilled enough in combat to fight things successfully, tactical geniuses to avoid being shot at by orbital bombardment, and having the best tech ever made by mankind.
They are not superman. They are not indestructible. They are only slightly magical (only if the're psykers). They, and presumably the emperor, as he made them out of his own DNA, could be given a run for their money by a warboss who's bigger and stronger than they are.
The Primarchs were indeed incredibly skilled and intelligent warriors, capable of processing information at speeds no human mind could rival, and all, even Lorgar, were supremely skilled warriors.
But the fluff still dictates they are not "slightly" genetically superior to Marines. Konrad Curze, in The Dark King, by Graham McNeill (Who only sort of, you know, has actually written codices for GW, not that that matters), actually karate chops a Space Marine's head off, and punches his fist into the chest of another, before ripping his spine out. He dismembers a room full of Marines in Terminator Armour (His jailers) with his bare hands. Which he in fact did in the Index Astartes fluff as well, his cell was found with the guards butchered and dismembered. No, it does not explicitly state that he did so unarmed, but let's think about this rationally: Konrad Curze has just nearly beaten killed Rogal Dorn, a fellow Primarch, and he needed to be detained. Why would you lock him up with his weaponry?
No one believes Primarchs are invincible, at least no one I've seen in this thread.
But numerous fluff examples dictate that they are Greater Daemon tier, at the very least.
Void__Dragon wrote: There is no fluff to really justify a claim that Marbo can kill the Emperor and the Primarchs with a laspistol, whereas there is a lot of fluff pointing to the Primarchs being walking demigods, much like Greater Daemons are.
Your argument based on realism has no place in 40k. Marbo could effortlessly kill all 20 primarchs with one pistol shot.
It's almost as if a superhuman being who can hold back the flow of Chaos and happens to be worshipped as a deity by a signifigant portion of the setting created them from his own body... Oh wait...
Yeah. Marbo created the primarchs, Marbo can kill the primarchs.
My argument is not based on realism, only what the fluff actually states.
Do you need some wine with those sour grapes?
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Roadkill Zombie wrote: I would like to point out that a lot of this is RUMOR, even if it is in a horus heresy novel. Like the main rulebook says, it could be true or it could be myth. No one knows and the guys from the chaos side of things can't be trusted to tell the truth.
On another point, didn't Mortarion take that anti-tank weaponry to the face AFTER he became a Daemon Prince? Because that surely makes a difference.
No actually, he tanked it during the battle of Istvaan III, where he was still very much "just" a Primarch.
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Crimson wrote: What certainly happened that Sanguinius defeated a mighty Khornate Daemon. He may have even snapped it's back. This does not mean that he was stronger than a Bloodthirster, merely that he was really skilled and possibly quite lucky.
The biggest and strongest Bloodthirsters hover around the size of a Warhound Titan.
To have actually lifted such a creature up over his head and snapped its back would require tremendous physical strength beyond any Marine that isn't named Draigo.
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Crimson wrote: This doesn't matter. We've been over this. It can still be a myth.
Things you posted seem ludicrous to me, but in any case the Primarch powerlevel seems to vary so wildly that it stops making sense if we try to take it all to be literally true. Either they can shrug off thunder hammer and lascannon hits to the unarmoured face or they can be decapitated by power swords and challenged by normal chaos marines. Both of these just cannot be true at the same time.
It doesn't vary by much.
I have gone out of my way not to include many Horus Heresy feats (There was this time Magnus the Red fought a couple Titans...), and you should appreciate the kindness I have dealt your side of the argument.
But even restricted to non-BL, the fluff is still very consistent on the Primarchs as Greater Daemon+ beings.
Void__Dragon wrote: My argument is not based on realism, only what the fluff actually states.
Of course it's based on realism. Your argument is based on the premise that a laspistol will behave in a realistic manner and not suddenly get billions of times its usual firepower just because Marbo holds it. If you want to declare that realism has no place in 40k then you can no longer object to Marbo killing all of the primarchs.
Fortunately there's an easy way out, you just accept that realism belongs in 40k. Too bad you'll also then have to accept that the most likely explanation for the ridiculous primarch feats is the exaggeration the BL authors admit they do.
VanHammer wrote: Since its been mentioned a few times... can someone explain to me how you would choke an avatar?
They are hot iron with a molten lava core, they dont exactly need to breath, have no lungs, and wouldnt need oxygen for cellular respiration seeing as they are made of metal.
And as far as primarchs go, I agree that they probably have a lot of plot armor and padding because their feats are written of like they are a big deal, but if they were so strong I doubt wining ANY 1 on 1 fight would be worth writing about, and even so they would be written about more frequently than "primarch X killed (insert strong being here) that one time".
"Fulgrim choked an Avatar of Khaine out" is something of a myth passed around by the fanbase.
He didn't suffocate it through strangulation. He literally crushed its neck, and the molten metals and warpfire comprising it exploded from the sudden release.
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Peregrine wrote: Of course it's based on realism. Your argument is based on the premise that a laspistol will behave in a realistic manner and not suddenly get billions of times its usual firepower just because Marbo holds it. If you want to declare that realism has no place in 40k then you can no longer object to Marbo killing all of the primarchs.
Fortunately there's an easy way out, you just accept that realism belongs in 40k. Too bad you'll also then have to accept that the most likely explanation for the ridiculous primarch feats is the exaggeration the BL authors admit they do.
The third definition is the one I had in mind. Or rather, it is the one that applies to this discussion, since my exact words were "grounded in reality", which is to say, 40k tries to paint a consistent universe (Except when it doesn't), but it does not at all try to be accurately represent or depict our reality.
Peregrine wrote: Fortunately there's an easy way out, you just accept that realism belongs in 40k. Too bad you'll also then have to accept that the most likely explanation for the ridiculous primarch feats is the exaggeration the BL authors admit they do.
Except that is not the most likely explanation, because as I stated a few posts up (which you ignored) it contradicts the motivations of all involved and the existence of a human empire.
The most likely explanation is that the fluff is accurate, except where it contradicts itself. The BL get out clause is just to smooth over the contradictions.
You are trying to argue that pretty much the entire background is inaccurate and exaggerated, which is far more complicated, as it would make the background inconsistent with the current setting. it calls for you to 'make up' thousands of alternative explanations as to why things turned out the way they did.
BL did not say that they always exaggerate as you are trying to make out. What they said sounded more like they 'maybe' exaggerate 'sometimes'.
Just to clarify one point; I've never heard of some Greater Daemons being the size of a warhound, where's that from?
Daemonic Angron was the size of a warhound and he towered over Bloodthirsters...
Just Dave wrote: Just to clarify one point; I've never heard of some Greater Daemons being the size of a warhound, where's that from?
Daemonic Angron was the size of a warhound and he towered over Bloodthirsters...
An'ggrath the Unbound.
Deathwatch - Mark of the Xenos states as much as well.
Just Dave wrote: Just to clarify one point; I've never heard of some Greater Daemons being the size of a warhound, where's that from?
Daemonic Angron was the size of a warhound and he towered over Bloodthirsters...
An'ggrath the Unbound.
Deathwatch - Mark of the Xenos states as much as well.
Smacks wrote: Except that is not the most likely explanation, because as I stated a few posts up (which you ignored) it contradicts the motivations of all involved and the existence of a human empire.
But it doesn't. Primarchs can be valuable, especially as leaders of conventional armies, even if they don't have "ignore lascannon to the face" level durability.
You are trying to argue that pretty much the entire background is inaccurate and exaggerated, which is far more complicated, as it would make the background inconsistent with the current setting. it calls for you to 'make up' thousands of alternative explanations as to why things turned out the way they did.
No, I'm arguing that the ridiculous primarch feats are exaggerated, which is only a small subset of the overall fluff. And it only requires a single explanation: accounts of the primarchs have been wildly exaggerated in the 10,000 years since the Heresy to make them into more heroic figures. Which is exactly what the BL authors admit to doing.
Might be a little late to the party but I haven't seen the actual piece in question posted in full anywhere. Here is one of the original tellings.
Index Astartes: Luna Wolves wrote:The two fought together on many occasions. At the fortified city of Reillis, a Human settlement unwilling to accept the Emperor's beneficent will, the defending army used secret tunnels to infiltrate behind the besieging Imperial army and hundreds of shock troops swamped the command encampment. Unprepared and unarmoured, the Emperor and Horus fought back to back until a plasma blast stunned Horus and sent him staggering to the floor. The Emperor stood over the Primarch and refused to give ground until reinforcements arrived to drive their attackers back. On the Ork-infested planet of Gorro, Horus repaid the debt by hacking the arm from a huge, frenzied Greenskin warlord as it struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him.
To me this sounds like the Emperor was in no real danger, the Ork was struggling, maybe with little success. Perhaps after Reillis theEmperor wanted to give Horus and ego boost and allowed himself to be save.
I think the comments about a Primarch being hit by a Lascannon are not about Mortarion but Corax in Raven's Flight when he launches his 1 man assault on the Iron Warriors.
Also it was said why would a Primarch go down and fight in a battle that would not require his capability, why wouldn't they, they are soldiers after all. They do not just fight but they direct, command and inspire.
I think with Greater Daemons they can appear to be any size, but something as big as a mountain is a lot easier to hit in the face with everyone gun you have.
You are trying to argue that pretty much the entire background is inaccurate and exaggerated, which is far more complicated, as it would make the background inconsistent with the current setting. it calls for you to 'make up' thousands of alternative explanations as to why things turned out the way they did.
No, I'm arguing that the ridiculous primarch feats are exaggerated, which is only a small subset of the overall fluff. And it only requires a single explanation: accounts of the primarchs have been wildly exaggerated in the 10,000 years since the Heresy to make them into more heroic figures. Which is exactly what the BL authors admit to doing.
I see what you are saying Peregrine, but doesn't that depend on from the perspective of how the story is told? In the case of the Heresy series we are told as if we are there, experiencing it ourselves. We're not being told the story from the account of someone else.
Pilau Rice wrote: I see what you are saying Peregrine, but doesn't that depend on from the perspective of how the story is told? In the case of the Heresy series we are told as if we are there, experiencing it ourselves. We're not being told the story from the account of someone else.
Not according to the BL authors:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library
In 40k there is no such thing as the omniscient and infallible narrator.
Peregrine wrote: I don't need to. The supposed feats of the primarchs are so utterly stupid that the only sensible explanation is that they're in-universe myths.
Pilau Rice wrote: I see what you are saying Peregrine, but doesn't that depend on from the perspective of how the story is told? In the case of the Heresy series we are told as if we are there, experiencing it ourselves. We're not being told the story from the account of someone else.
Not according to the BL authors:
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library
In 40k there is no such thing as the omniscient and infallible narrator.
Does the Horus Heresy series have the 40k symbol on it though? Genuine question.
40k
Spoiler:
Horus Heresy
Spoiler:
I haven't got a back image though so I am not sure.
Personally, I still feel that quote and subsequent comment is a bit of a cop-out, oft used prevent others disagreeing with you and discussions reaching a conclusion, I have to say.
Void Dragon, that phase sword was excellent catch! Well done sir! (Amusingly enough, in actual game phase sword is just as effective against Primarch as normal power sword, but yes, we can accept that in background it would be more effective.)
As for Luther, the idea that is vastly more powerful than any other chaos marine, Abaddon included does not sit well with me. If Primarchs truly were like Superman, and Chaos can raise a half-marine on their level, why the hell Imperium still stands?
In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
Every one agrees that Primarchs were powerful, but the disagreement is about how powerful. I mean I agree that a Primarch can beat a greater daemon, but this does not mean that a Primarch needs to be as strong and tough as a greater daemon. And when we get to the pure comicbook superhero territory, to me it just gets lame. I mean their heroics become less impressive if they were so invincible, of course they will succeed if they're like Superman!
Personally, I still feel that quote and subsequent comment is a bit of a cop-out, oft used prevent others disagreeing with you and discussions reaching a conclusion, I have to say.
Thanks Dave, will double check though later, just in case
I agree, it makes any discussion you have pointless as you can just pull that out of your ass and say well neer neer neer. You might as well not even have a background section anywhere because it's all lies
In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
What this mythic tale, which is recounted as a mythic tale?
Index Astartes: Iron Hands wrote:According to one often recounted mythic tale, he once challenged a Storm Giant to a competition of strength. The giant lifted a mountain between his hands and set it back down a mile away. The giant's laugh died as Ferrus lifted the entire mountain range onto his back, carrying it to a neighbouring island. The humbled giant was never seen again.
Peregrine wrote: No, I'm arguing that the ridiculous primarch feats are exaggerated, which is only a small subset of the overall fluff. And it only requires a single explanation: accounts of the primarchs have been wildly exaggerated in the 10,000 years since the Heresy to make them into more heroic figures. Which is exactly what the BL authors admit to doing.
That isn't 'exactly' what they admit to doing at all.
Your entire argument seems to be based on the assumption that 'meat < metal', but this is a fallacy. Firstly you don't know what the the Primarchs were made of, aside from they appeared human. Secondly even if they are completely organic... Spider silk is organic and is many times stronger than steel. Who knows what kind of near-indestructible tissue the Emperor could engineer with his supreme intellect, and 28,000 years of science ahead of what we have have now.
Then in order to corroborate this assumption, you require just about every account of the primarch's feats, and every description GW has ever provided of them to be an exaggeration. And you are trying to twist a non-committal BL quote, to make a case for this.
I will concede that 'some' things are clearly exaggerations. For example in the 2nd edition Codex Space wolves, there is a legend of Russ picking up a mountain and moving it. However this is actually presented as a Fenrisian legend. However primarchs being able to survive heavy weapons does not seem ridiculous, especially when you consider that they were built as super weapons. And there are numerous accounts of this happening, which support the idea.
In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
Every one agrees that Primarchs were powerful, but the disagreement is about how powerful. I mean I agree that a Primarch can beat a greater daemon, but this does not mean that a Primarch needs to be as strong and tough as a greater daemon. And when we get to the pure comicbook superhero territory, to me it just gets lame. I mean their heroics become less impressive if they were so invincible, of course they will succeed if they're like Superman!
I share your distaste for the "comic levels of proportion". It is for that reason that I do not read the superman comics. Superman is Superman, and the best the writers can throw at him is a human business man with a seemingly endless supply of kryptonite. It's just bad writing.
In WH40k, the Emperor is clearly the superman figure, whose powers are simply unmatched. However there is a large difference in the writing. The Emperor is not fighting on the front lines of the Imperium. His creations (or half of them) have betrayed or forsaken him, and for lack of better terms, his heart has been broken. He no longer has the will to lead humanity. He has relegated himself to roles essential to their survival (astronomicon, golden throne sealing the webway, etc). What loyal Primarchs remain are like mini-supermen, who exist in a story full of evil counterparts (greater daemons) who out number them many thousand to one. Even if "normal" marines, or standard humans pose virtually no threat to them, there are still other beings in that universe that do.
per the GK codex there are 666 "named" greater daemons that are known (shared knowledge of the Eldar and the Black Library, and the Seers on Titan in the Liber Daemonica). Those are such beings as M'chathan, Vrachs, and Arangaoth the Unbound, who are immensely powerful... and I'll repeat, there are 666 of them known. There are only a handful of Primarchs.
That also excludes those greater daemons that are not named... Who knows how many of them there could be at a given time.
This argument hinges on the hilarious notion that 40k is at all grounded in reality. It isn't. Not when you have normal human men snapping the necks of Tyranid Warriors, or guys like Yarrick who can take a headbutt from an Ork the size of a dreadnought.
Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
This argument hinges on the hilarious notion that 40k is at all grounded in reality. It isn't. Not when you have normal human men snapping the necks of Tyranid Warriors, or guys like Yarrick who can take a headbutt from an Ork the size of a dreadnought.
Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
Yeah but we all know that Yarrick is actually one of the missing two primarchs
This argument hinges on the hilarious notion that 40k is at all grounded in reality. It isn't. Not when you have normal human men snapping the necks of Tyranid Warriors, or guys like Yarrick who can take a headbutt from an Ork the size of a dreadnought.
Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
Yeah but we all know that Yarrick is actually one of the missing two primarchs
BlaxicanX wrote: It isn't OTT because it's the only way it makes sense without plot armor.
If Primarchs could be killed by something as ordinary as sniper rounds to the head, or a shotgun to the face, none of them would have lived long enough to even make it to the Horus Heresy- they would have all been killed off eventually during the Great Crusade, considering the caliber of enemies they fight.
As far as "are they invulnerable". Well. Fast-forward to the 41st millennium, how many Primarchs are around? Exactly. They obviously are not invulnerable.
So lets say it happens and you shot a primarch in the head does it just bounce off like a BB or disappear because the plot armor wouldn't let it happen because it would kill him?
/Warning\ I am a stranger to those arguments.
Unless I am mistaken, in one of the BL books I recently read (I think it was the oneabout Sanguinius though I am not sure), a SM character survives a boltround to the head, while being unhelmeted.
So I guess an antitank missile to a primarch would hurt him, of course, but not fell him.
In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
Every one agrees that Primarchs were powerful, but the disagreement is about how powerful. I mean I agree that a Primarch can beat a greater daemon, but this does not mean that a Primarch needs to be as strong and tough as a greater daemon. And when we get to the pure comicbook superhero territory, to me it just gets lame. I mean their heroics become less impressive if they were so invincible, of course they will succeed if they're like Superman!
I share your distaste for the "comic levels of proportion". It is for that reason that I do not read the superman comics. Superman is Superman, and the best the writers can throw at him is a human business man with a seemingly endless supply of kryptonite. It's just bad writing.
In WH40k, the Emperor is clearly the superman figure, whose powers are simply unmatched. However there is a large difference in the writing. The Emperor is not fighting on the front lines of the Imperium. His creations (or half of them) have betrayed or forsaken him, and for lack of better terms, his heart has been broken. He no longer has the will to lead humanity. He has relegated himself to roles essential to their survival (astronomicon, golden throne sealing the webway, etc). What loyal Primarchs remain are like mini-supermen, who exist in a story full of evil counterparts (greater daemons) who out number them many thousand to one. Even if "normal" marines, or standard humans pose virtually no threat to them, there are still other beings in that universe that do.
per the GK codex there are 666 "named" greater daemons that are known (shared knowledge of the Eldar and the Black Library, and the Seers on Titan in the Liber Daemonica). Those are such beings as M'chathan, Vrachs, and Arangaoth the Unbound, who are immensely powerful... and I'll repeat, there are 666 of them known. There are only a handful of Primarchs.
That also excludes those greater daemons that are not named... Who knows how many of them there could be at a given time.
Personally, it's for some of those reasons that I've actually grown to like the power levels of the Primarchs, as displayed by Black Library.
They're not Superman or invincible; they still have character flaws, vulnerabilities and can be killed. But, they are just 20 individuals, created by the Emperor (and likely the Chaos Gods or at least the power of the warp) to conquer the entire galaxy. The Space Marines are an incredible feat of engineering, but their leaders, the guys that the Emperor dedicated so much work and resources to? They're something else altogether.
When you consider who created them, why he created them, and how he created them; I like the power levels of the Primarchs, particularly compared to Greater Daemons/Daemon Princes. They seem to have much of the same capabilities, just within a smaller frame and a fraction of the overall number/quantity. I mean, if you see them as the Heroes of Order against the Daemons of Chaos, then they are still only 20 truly exceptional individuals against well over 600 similarly powerful beings.
So with this paragraph in mind, I can understand why a Primarch can survive so much damage; show such strength, intelligence or skill at arms; demonstrate such psychic ability or latency; and be capable of turning aside tanks or tearing through some of the toughest armour.
They are far more than human or even Space Marine, and I think that's one of the hard parts to grasp; particularly as they still somewhat appear it.
But they can still be killed or wounded, and they are not invincible as some may see them. And still, in their heart or character; they are human, and suffer for it.
They are far more than human or even Space Marine, and I think that's one of the hard parts to grasp; particularly as they still somewhat appear it.
But they can still be killed or wounded, and they are not invincible as some may see them. And still, in their heart or character; they are human, and suffer for it.
I like that part of your post Space marines are humans that have been turned up to 11, and Primarchs are space marines turned up to 11.
All flaws included (The bigger they are, the harder they fall)
Dave, the guardsman, had serious doubts about this attack, the enemy trenches were crawling with heretical cultists and some huge guys in nasty looking power armour. but the general had ordered an attack, and dave didn't fancy getting executed by steve the commisar for using his brains and refusing the suicidal order.
They crept through nomans land, and amazingly the enemy sentries were either blind, or asleep. Dave and his squad pulled the pins from their grenades and tossed them into the enemy trench, 3, 2, a few started cries 1 BOOM. he lost his footing briefly and the enemy heavy weapon nests opened fire. Stan got blown to pieces by a shot that would have hit him if he hadnt stumbled. he followed steve, with a slight grin, if he was going to die, he was sure Steve would already be dead.
The trench was an abatoir, and with shots whistling by his head he leadpt in, only to be knocked off his feet by Steves head. miraculously he avoided being impaled on a spike by being knocked sensless, but now he was on his back, in a trench, surrounded by body parts, the only one of his squad to make it, and facing a really really huge guy in really nasty spiky armour with a nasty looking power sword. the soldier turned, pointed his pistol at Dave, and pulled the trigger... 'click'
The gun was empty and the soldier discarded it, took a 2 handed grip on his sword and with a cry prepared to slice dave limb from limb. remembering his training, dave lifted his lasgun, and the bayonet on it to use as a makeshift spear turned his head and closed his eyes.
The soldier impaled himself on it with a grunt. the bayonet slipped through a crack in the armour, no doubt from one of the grenades that had preceeded them into the trench. hardly believing his luck, and after making brief eyecontact, he pulled the trigger with a grin...
Dave the guardsman is a pathetic, uncordinated, clumsy guardsman who is more frightened by his own side, than he is of the enemy. He is the main character, so he has Plot armour. and this plot armour saves him...
1) he stumbles and Stan gets killed instead of him
2) he follows Steve and steve dies instead of him,
3) as steve dies, he saves Dave by knocking him off his feet
4) the marine facing him has used all his ammo
5) the marine impales himself on Daves bayonet through a hole in his armour
6) this saves Dave because he then pulls the trigger on his lasgun, and kills the marine
Dave was saved 6 (SIX) times by plot armour
if dave, an imperial guardsman of dubious quality can be saved by plot armour (being the main character and all) then god help anyone fighting against anyone IMPORTANT!
Peregrine wrote: The supposed feats of the primarchs are so utterly stupid that the only sensible explanation is that they're in-universe myths.
This.
Horus Heresy: Betrayal, for those of us that actually read the introduction, is written from the point of view of a scribe that collected accounts of the 4 legions found within that book, as well as stories concerning the Emperor's rise to power, the Unification Wars, and so on.
This scribe collected journals, incomplete texts, 3rd hand accounts (at best), and so on to compile Betrayal. Some of the stories might be 100% accurate, some of the stories might be allegories based loosely on actual events, and some might be completely false. That's the whole point. There are very few witnesses to a number of the events, many of which are larger than life Paul Bunyan type stories. How many Space Marines were with the Emperor and Horus and actually saw the Emperor being attacked by a giant Ork? 1? 12? And how many of those did the scribe of Betrayal interview? 0?
To put complete stock in these stories would be foolish. To dismiss them out of hand as fan-wankery is missing the point of the book.
madtankbloke wrote: Sanguinius, the primarch, was confident about the attack.
He flew over no-man's land with his wings, and amazingly beat the living gak out of the enemy sentries. Sanguinius pulled his sword out. The enemy heavy weapon nests opened fire, Sanguinius jinked out the way with super human speed. Guardsman Stan got blown to pieces by a shot that would have hit Sanguinius if he hadn't been so awesome.
The trench was an abattoir, and with shots whistling by his head he swooped in, miraculously he avoided being impaled on a spike with his lightning reflexes, but now he was on his feet, in a trench, surrounded by body parts, the only one to make it, and facing a really really huge guy in really nasty spiky armour with a nasty looking power sword. the soldier turned, pointed his pistol at Sanguinius but before he could pull the trigger... Sanguinius hoisted him high above his head and then slammed him across his knee, shattering the man's armour and snapping his back like a twig...
This argument hinges on the hilarious notion that 40k is at all grounded in reality. It isn't. Not when you have normal human men snapping the necks of Tyranid Warriors, or guys like Yarrick who can take a headbutt from an Ork the size of a dreadnought.
Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
Emperor needed to be saved from a super ork boss (which was similar to Ghazghkull) and Yarrick defeated Ghazghkull, so we can conclude that Yarrick is more powerful than Emperor!
This is why we really cannot deduce actual powerlevels from who defeated whom. So Primarchs defeating greater daemons actually does no tell us which ones are actually mightier.
Personally I'd assume Primarchs to be about equal to a weak Greater Daemon, while most powerful Daemons would be much more powerful. Primarch would still win though, because they're heroes of the story. I just think it is a better story if they beat someone that was mightier than them.
Whew, a lot of stuff was written whilst I was out - warning, long post, but I feel I should address a "few" points.
En Excelsis wrote:I won't get too esoteric here but that's why religion in our world still even exists. The contents of the Christian Bible are no more or less factually validated than any other piece of human history. If those events could be genuinely disproven than religion as we know it would not exist.
I'm fairly sure that the scientific understanding of the modern man has disproven a lot of what the bible says. Evolution, anyone? Big bang? The actual age of the planet?
Petty facts do not override faith. What they do is cause people to look for excuses, such as Creationism or the movement of Old-earth proponents. That, or simply dismissing science as heretical lies. Either way, there is a correlation between the level of religion and the level of education when you look at studies. Here is an interesting poll regarding the subject; take note of the article's second half.
En Excelsis wrote:So than why argue about the contents of the story at all? Would not be equally logical to just dismiss everything in this same way? Where does that line get drawn?
We all draw the line differently, depending both on whatever material we have been most exposed to (shaping our understanding of the setting) as well as simple personal preferences. In 40k, this is working as intended. It is a sad, sad thing that a lot of fans still have not realised that this means that a lot of topics will quite simply not allow a consensus.
Smacks wrote:By that reasoning daemons aren't real either.
Perhaps they aren't. Perhaps what we see in the fights on the tabletop is really just myth and legend.
It's not a hold I view myself, in part because the existence of daemons is not common knowledge within the setting and thus would not be flaunted the same way in "propaganda" material. However, the point still stands - it is up to you to decide.
Smacks wrote:1: If the Primarchs are much less impressive, then why did the Emperor create them in the first place?
Your theory fails to explain this. The Emperor wanted super weapons. If all he was going to get was mediocre weapons, why would he bother?
Allow me...
Spoiler:
By the reasoning you try to apply here, Space Marines are only "mediocre weapons" as well. Maybe they are, but even then they are still better than the common IG grunt, and rare elite troops have their use when you need to focus as much firepower (or swordpower) in as small a place as possible - such as during a boarding action, or even just by being able to transport more combat power with a smaller amount of spaceships. Perhaps this is why the Adeptus Astartes are called Space Marines instead of Space Warriors, Space Knights, Space Troopers, or even Space Supersoldiers? As the Emperor began the Great Crusade, Earth was but one planet, and to conquer an entire galaxy with the resources of a single world it takes something more than regular conscripts, as manpower and transportation are the most obvious limitations for such a campaign.
By the same reasoning, Space Marines could be "Primarchs -1". Not quite as effective, yet much easier and faster to produce (upgrade of adolescent recruits rather than having to breed them from scratch).
Smacks wrote:Why were the Chaos gods so scared of them that they united to destroy them?
Again if they are unimpressive, why would the gods care? Let alone put aside their differences and team up.
Perhaps they were scared more of the Emperor and his plans for the galaxy (a united ordered galaxy offers less potential for Chaos), rather than the tools he used to achieve this? Apart from the Chaos Gods being ideas made reality rather than actual living beings, and thus likely incapable of feeling "fear", I doubt they were scared of something when - supposedly - they were able to fill random people such as Luther with as much martial power to render them equals in a duel.
Smacks wrote:If the Emperor is less impressive, how come all 4 Chaos gods combined are still too weak to destroy his creation.
They wanted them dead, but had to settle for scattering. This suggests that the Emperor is indeed very powerful.
Or maybe Chaos, just like the Emperor, is not omnipotent. That would be the most obvious explanation, I think.
Going by what the books suggest, Chaos acts through agents corrupted by its influence.
Smacks wrote:Why did the Emperor put so much energy into finding them?
If the were unimpressive, why bother? or why not make them again? Or try something else?
Much energy? The Great Crusade happened either way. The Primarchs were picked up as humanity's forces ventured outward.
The Emperor did nothing to find his Primarchs - he didn't have to, given that it was just a matter of time until his troops would pick up traces or rumours of their whereabouts he could then investigate to reclaim the fruits of his lost project. Some even came to find him.
I agree that ít seems strange that the Emperor did not simply breed a new batch of Primarchs. Obviously he had the tech. Maybe he did not think it was worth the effort himself?
Or, here's a thought, maybe he was no longer able to, because one or more of the scientists who created the Primarchs were gone. Maybe it was the scientists who sent the Primarchs away. Be it because they were agents of Chaos, or because they genuinely felt it was the right thing to do. I mean, come on now, scientists cloning babies for a dictator's conquest army growing a conscience? That's a classic sci-fi trope right there.
This is what the Index Astartes has to say on the subject:
"There are no records as to how the Primarchs became so widely spread across the galaxy. The prevalent theory maintains that as the Primarchs were still incubating in their nascent state in the laboratories of Luna, they were scattered to the far corners of the galaxy. One certainty to arise from this foundation of mystery is the fact that the Emperor subsequently used the lost Primarch's gene-seed as a template for a genetically engineered species of superhumans, the Space Marines."
Smacks wrote:How come they conquered that galaxy?
They did which would indicate they were capable of doing so. The fact that the Human empire still exists is testament to this.
The very fact that the Great Crusade managed to get as far as to pick up the Primarchs in the first place kind of ruins your argument that they were in any way "necessary" for it. It was the Space Marines and their human auxiliary that conquered the galaxy, not the Primarchs, nor even the Emperor, unless we are talking politics.
Void__Dragon wrote:One of many Battleship class starships? Man, this must have been some Black Crusade...
Battleships aren't that rare, especially back then when they were still relatively "fresh" compared to M41.
What do you suggest was on that ship's bridge that was somehow different from any other Chaos vessel? A Traitor Primarch? For you sound as if that's the only thing that could pose a challenge to a Loyalist Primarch.
Void__Dragon wrote:Clearly Dorn destroyed the vast majority of them.
Clearly.
Or maybe some of us just prefer a less weird possibility than a hundred lascannons being installed on some ship's bridge whose crew had no idea Dorn would pay them a visit.
Void__Dragon wrote:Oh, and the very article you clutch to, in descriptions of the Iron Cage, describes Dorn as a "colossus who personally turned back attack after attack".
So? ~8 feet is pretty big, and I never doubted that the Primarchs are capable fighters.
Void__Dragon wrote:And to answer your question in that thread that I forgot to respond to, yes, I know how fast someone would be to swing a sword in a millionth of a second. Mach 3,000, for a lower end figure.
Though you recall the thread wrong, I did that in response to Spartan supporters wanting to make this a book-based feat war, and demonstrated in such a debate the Marine is not chanceless.
It's still a silly notion, yet at the same time a good example of the hyperbole plagueing many BL novels.
Void__Dragon wrote:But provide those conflicting accounts of Primarch formidability please?
If you don't want to accept Dorn's case, and given that the Index Astartes' other accounts offer only vague comparisons (incidents such as young Sanguinius being unharmed by poison "said to burn a man from within in seconds" yet young Leman Russ succumbing to the poison of some villagers' arrows) I would rather wait for someone else to do this - although I kind of doubt that other accounts exist, given that GW's material still treats it as myth and legend, whereas BL novels (and especially Marine novels) are known to exaggerate. I have not read the HH books myself, nor do I have any intention to do so. It's just not my type of story, obviously.
In the end, none of us truly needs to or even can deliver actual "evidence" of any sort regarding the Primarchs' "formidability". As the authors of the novels you cling to have said themselves, this isn't a matter of right or wrong but of overlapping interpretations differing in details. You prefer a more epic and heroic version of 40k, I a more gritty one. This is really all the explanation we need to realise that we cannot possibly come to a consensus, aside perhaps from at least agreeing on the fluff itself not being as reliable as you seem to make it out to be.
To me, the nature of the Primarchs as they seem to you simply invalidates too many constants of the setting, both in terms of technology as well as in warfare. In essence, I don't want unrealistic nigh-unkillable superheroes strutting through battlefields and punching holes in tanks, hence I attempted to analise whether I truly have to accept them - said analysis led me to try and read between the lines of GW's fluff, finally resolving to consider the stories of their exploits as clouded by myth and legend.
Or do you really believe that Ferrus Manus carried "an entire mountain range" on his back from island to island? Do we really *need* to find you something contradicting this, or do you truly consider something as ludicrous as this being even remotely accurate...?
Just Dave wrote:Personally, I still feel that quote and subsequent comment is a bit of a cop-out, oft used prevent others disagreeing with you and discussions reaching a conclusion, I have to say.
Black Library's entire existence is a cop-out for GW when it comes to consistency. Some other dakkanaut once posted an interview of Dan Abnett about the Ultramarines movie in which he said that Black Library was founded specifically to set it apart from the game, as the writers requested more leeway and their stories sometimes cannot afford to conform to a game's static ruleset.
I'm sure you can find the interview on youtube.
What sort of conclusion would you think is even possible given the lack of consistency amongst the fluff? It does not need to tie into each other, hence it often doesn't.
This goes back to GW's whole idea that you as the player are supposed to "make the setting your own", including the creation of your own Space Marine Chapters with your own fluff and colour scheme.
Crimson wrote:In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
Every one agrees that Primarchs were powerful, but the disagreement is about how powerful. I mean I agree that a Primarch can beat a greater daemon, but this does not mean that a Primarch needs to be as strong and tough as a greater daemon. And when we get to the pure comicbook superhero territory, to me it just gets lame. I mean their heroics become less impressive if they were so invincible, of course they will succeed if they're like Superman!
This.
Pilau Rice wrote:I agree, it makes any discussion you have pointless as you can just pull that out of your ass and say well neer neer neer. You might as well not even have a background section anywhere because it's all lies
In a way, I actually agree - many fluff debates on dakka are somewhat pointless, simply because the fluff is contradictory and it usually bogs down to group A pointing to some book and group B pointing to another.
I'd say that the fluff section still has some value simply to exchange ideas or to inquire about which sources offer what information on some topic (there is usually some small measure of common ground to be had) - but I think it would be naive to expect all such debates to come to a generally accepted consensus when peoples' interpretation of the setting varies so wildly. And this does include not only the gamers and readers, but the authors themselves.
kronk wrote:Horus Heresy: Betrayal, for those of us that actually read the introduction, is written from the point of view of a scribe that collected accounts of the 4 legions found within that book, as well as stories concerning the Emperor's rise to power, the Unification Wars, and so on. This scribe collected journals, incomplete texts, 3rd hand accounts (at best), and so on to compile Betrayal.
Rather interesting. Thanks for adding that.
I will of course assume that the proponents of the "it's accurate" thesis simply did not read that part rather than intentionally omitting it for this discussion.
You are scaling things with a sort of irrational bias toward individual characters. If a space marine is the equal of two men, and a Primarch is the equal of two space marines, than you have establish a logical scale of "power".
In the reality of WH40k universe, a Space Marine is probably the equal of 100 men, and the Primarchs are the equals of 100 Space Marines. The Emperor is not even on that scale.
It's not about how powerful a single character is when compared to another because 40k is not a boxing match. It's not supposed to focus on a duel between Joe Space Marine and Joe Daemon. It's about a galaxy spanning war that involved the complete destruction of countless species across billions of worlds and often the destruction of the worlds themselves.
a Primarch could logically be the equal of 100 greater daemons. That obviously doesn't sit well with people who have a strong bias against the Space Marines and their particular brand of awesome sauce, it can still fit logically into the universe without offsetting the balance. Even if Sanguinius (for instance) was the better of a 100 greater daemons, that doesn't tip the scale since there are countless thousands of those daemons towering over countless millions of lesser deamons, and working alongside 666 famously badass greater daemons who, when combined represent a much greater "power".
In good works of fiction, it is not necessary to have every individual character be countered by another individual character. Deal with it. If you write a character that can kill 10 men with a glance you don't write in enemies that are groups of ten men. You'd probably want to overwhelm him with a massive scale of enemies that even his immense power will eventually succumb to.
Think Starship troopers... the threat would not be present if we found a bug that was really mean and angry and wanted to eat/kill humans. The threat exists because we found billions if not trillions of those bugs...
In the reality of WH40k universe, a Space Marine is probably the equal of 100 men, and the Primarchs are the equals of 100 Space Marines. The Emperor is not even on that scale.
A primarch disagrees with you:
"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops."
-Rogal Dorn
a Primarch could logically be the equal of 100 greater daemons. That obviously doesn't sit well with people who have a strong bias against the Space Marines and their particular brand of awesome sauce, it can still fit logically into the universe without offsetting the balance. Even if Sanguinius (for instance) was the better of a 100 greater daemons, that doesn't tip the scale since there are countless thousands of those daemons towering over countless millions of lesser deamons, and working alongside 666 famously badass greater daemons who, when combined represent a much greater "power".
I have no bias against Space Marines. I play them, I love them, they're my favourite faction in 40K. I have bias against lame mary sue characters, though. A Primarch duelling a massive Bloodthirster that towers over him and triumphing is cool, a Primarch bitchslapping few dozen Bloodthirsters like they were grots is lame; it makes both Primarchs and Bloodthirsters less awesome.
Think Starship troopers... the threat would not be present if we found a bug that was really mean and angry and wanted to eat/kill humans. The threat exists because we found billions if not trillions of those bugs...
Yeah, I do not thing Greater Daemons are something that I'd like to be reduced to a horde of bugs...
En Excelsis wrote:In the reality of WH40k universe, a Space Marine is probably the equal of 100 men, and the Primarchs are the equals of 100 Space Marines. The Emperor is not even on that scale.
See, not even Dorn believed that, and he was a Primarch.
It's simple. Our interpretations are way too different - we cannot possibly reach a consensus on this issue. And I could accuse you of bias just as easily:
"A Primarch could logically be the equal of 20 Guardsmen. That obviously doesn't sit well with people who have a strong bias for the Space Marines and their particular brand of awesomesaude. It can still fit logically into the universe without offsetting the balance."
See?
En Excelsis wrote:It's not about how powerful a single character is when compared to another because 40k is not a boxing match. It's not supposed to focus on a duel between Joe Space Marine and Joe Daemon. It's about a galaxy spanning war that involved the complete destruction of countless species across billions of worlds and often the destruction of the worlds themselves.
Ironically, from all I've heard the HH novels focus more on the former than the latter.
Okay. For anybody who is arguing in favour of the primarchs being super-powerful beings, or even just being "GD +1", watch this video of Gandalf vs The Balrog:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44kBN340vd4
Gandalf, little more than a man with a small amount of magic defeats one of the greatest terrors ever to walk middle earth.
Gandalf's fight and victory feels awesomesauce, because it has such a meaty, gritty feel to it. Gandalf had to struggle. It took all hhis skill, strength, will and even his life to slay the demon, but he did it.
Now compare it to the following sentence:
"Sanguinius grabbed the bloodthirster, lifted it high into the air, broke it's wings off, snapped it's back, and then threw it at the ground below." A show of power, yes, but it has an utter lack of anything even vaguely interesting.
"Primarch insta-gibs monster" sums it up.
You can't do that with Gandalf vs the Balrog, because it has everything a good fight requires.
Gandalf, little more than a man with a small amount of magic defeats one of the greatest terrors ever to walk middle earth.
Gandalf's fight and victory feels awesomesauce, because it has such a meaty, gritty feel to it. Gandalf had to struggle. It took all hhis skill, strength, will and even his life to slay the demon, but he did it.
Now compare it to the following sentence:
"Sanguinius grabbed the bloodthirster, lifted it high into the air, broke it's wings off, snapped it's back, and then threw it at the ground below." A show of power, yes, but it has an utter lack of anything even vaguely interesting.
"Primarch insta-gibs monster" sums it up.
You can't do that with Gandalf vs the Balrog, because it has everything a good fight requires.
I don't have time to really address anyone else's posts in depth, having work in half an hour, but I will address this one.
First of all, no.
Now that I got that out of the way, arguing Gandalf is "little more than a man with a small amount of magic" frankly ignores his demonstrations of power throughout the series, and even the showings within that video.
Gandalf is able to stagger the Balrog with his blows, survive a freefall of a few kilometers while in combat with a huge demon beast that was crumbling the cavern of Moria with its footsteps, and proceed to kill it over a fight lasting days.
Hell, within the books, when Gandalf lays the Balrog low, he summons a storm that destroys the side of the mountain they are in.
Gandalf doesn't use his magic much because he has a finite supply as an Istari, but make no mistake, he is still a demigod.
Gandalf, little more than a man with a small amount of magic defeats one of the greatest terrors ever to walk middle earth.
Gandalf's fight and victory feels awesomesauce, because it has such a meaty, gritty feel to it. Gandalf had to struggle. It took all hhis skill, strength, will and even his life to slay the demon, but he did it.
Now compare it to the following sentence:
"Sanguinius grabbed the bloodthirster, lifted it high into the air, broke it's wings off, snapped it's back, and then threw it at the ground below." A show of power, yes, but it has an utter lack of anything even vaguely interesting.
"Primarch insta-gibs monster" sums it up.
You can't do that with Gandalf vs the Balrog, because it has everything a good fight requires.
Your quote on gandalf being little more than a man with magic could not be more innacurate. He's not even a man but one of the Istari a servant of the Valar. But you are right that his smackdown with the Balrog was way more awesomesauce than Sanguinius imo.
Sanguinius fought Ka'Bhanda in a grueling aerial duel, where he was eventually knocked out by a mighty swing of the foes' daemon axe, that also killed 500 Blood Angels.
He received a second wind though, and proceeded to assault Ka'Bhanda, and through strength of arm and endurance, managed to break Ka'Bhanda's wing, and throw him through a Warp Rift (IIRC this is how it occurred).
His rematch with Ka'Bhanda is similarly grueling and arduous an endeavor.
Void__Dragon wrote: Sanguinius fought Ka'Bhanda in a grueling aerial duel, where he was eventually knocked out by a mighty swing of the foes' daemon axe, that also killed 500 Blood Angels.
He received a second wind though, and proceeded to assault Ka'Bhanda, and through strength of arm and endurance, managed to break Ka'Bhanda's wing, and throw him through a Warp Rift (IIRC this is how it occurred).
His rematch with Ka'Bhanda is similarly grueling and arduous an endeavor.
It isn't like he curbstomped Ka'Bhanda.
Exactly!
There is s scale here that people are missing out on. My earlier mention of numbers are of no real consequence since there were not an attempt to accurately gauge the "power level" of the characters in the story. If that was something that I cared about I'd be wasting my time watching poorly animated cartoon from the 90's. the term "power level" has some very disagreeable juju for me.
However, by assignment of numbers was an allegory. It isn't concrete. The "power level" of a man, or a space marine, or a Primarch is not a quantifiable figure. It may be best if we abandon numbers altogether and simply say that they are "better". I think we can all agree that for the purposes of this argument that a space marine is better than a man, and that a primarch is better than a space marine. The need for scale doesn't have to be numerical but can be measured by how the other characters being compared fare against each other.
In the hierarchy of power that is relevant to this discussion we have to divide up the structure. On one side we have the typical man, who is < a space marine, who is < a Primarch.
On the other side we have lesser daemons who are > a man but more or less = to a space marine, who is < a greater daemon, who is decidedly < a named greater daemon.
Again I want to stress that this is not a concrete roster, and chance applies to everything. A courageous enough man could fell a lesser daemon, but for the sake of argument I'd say all the heroism in the world would not make him a reliable match for a greater daemon. Even heroic space marines of the Grey Knights (who were created specifically to combat daemons) are not a match in one on one combat with them, but in groups the become greater than the sum of their number and can triumph circumstantially.
Primarchs arr (IMO) consistently > greater daemons, but probably about = to a named greater daemon if not marginally >.
It's not a scale that GW is ever going to give us so it's ultimately up to your interpretation. But to me that scale paints a picture with the fewest possible problems. It also allows for a healthy amount of speculation since it's quite possible that a Primarch may (over time) slay many many many greater daemons, and even named ones, but still not ultimately unbalance anything since every daemon is slays is but one of untold thousands or millions or even billions... the only number we have for sure is that there are 666 named greater daemons... and those are just the ones we know of. The galaxy is a big big big BIG place. You also have other factors balancing things out like... the Primarchs that fell to temptation. they most certainly pose a threat. Whatever "divinity" they lost from the Emperor in the fall they seem to have gained in equal measure as "gifts" from their new masters.
And when you create this imagery of titans clashing amidst a battlefield of countless billions of other enemies on both sides, we STILL have to factor in that there are countless trillions or quadrillions or more Tyranids on the Way. Billions of Necrons that have yet to awaken. Bajillions ('cuz I like that number) of Orks. There are also other characters that factor into the lore like the Eldar (and DE) who are just as threatening even in FAR smaller numbers, and the Tau (a small threat at present but still a threat). And the story explicitly states that as there are untold thousands of other races that are encountered EVERY DAY!
Even if the Primarchs are super-dudes... that doesn't damage the story for me at all because there are so many more forces arrayed against them that they cannot possibly counter it all. Humanity is in it's "darkest hour". We are beset on all sides.... and no matter how strong we are, without the Emperor humanity is still losing. The fact that a Primarch might hypothetically be able to take on a few bloodthirsters is a silly argument in this context.
Gandalf, little more than a man with a small amount of magic defeats one of the greatest terrors ever to walk middle earth.
Gandalf's fight and victory feels awesomesauce, because it has such a meaty, gritty feel to it. Gandalf had to struggle. It took all hhis skill, strength, will and even his life to slay the demon, but he did it.
Now compare it to the following sentence:
"Sanguinius grabbed the bloodthirster, lifted it high into the air, broke it's wings off, snapped it's back, and then threw it at the ground below." A show of power, yes, but it has an utter lack of anything even vaguely interesting.
"Primarch insta-gibs monster" sums it up.
You can't do that with Gandalf vs the Balrog, because it has everything a good fight requires.
Again Mr Void_Dragon, IF Fulgrim really did take a wraithlord hit to the face and survive, according to the 6th edition rule book on the matter of primarchs, it very well might be true or it very well might be simply myth.
Page 186 of the 6th edition rule book does describe Primarchs as having done some pretty amazing things. It says this about them so it doesn't get much more official than this paragraph:
"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportion. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Manus didn't forge the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?"
Earlier in the description of the Primarchs it talks about the Horus Heresy and says " The story of those battles is told elsewhere..." obviously referring to the Horus Heresy series of books from the Black Library.
Since the paragraph about the primarchs is in the most current rulebook (which, by the way came out after the Horus Heresy, so it is more current) then it does say that officially nobody knows if he really did or didn't. It could all be myth, or it could all be "real".
Your claims to know the true history have no basis as officially know one knows.
umm well im not an expert infact i hardly no anything about the story behind the primarchs and the emporer but wernt everyone suspectinghorus of heresy
test perhaps?
i agree that no consensus is going to be reached on this thread, as it seems to be devolving into comparing primarchs to wizards and other heroes from alternate media. surely primarchs are just a combination of crazy as forgotten tech that could by rights include genetic manipulation, nanotechnology, cybernetics and the greatest man portable weapons and armour the imperium ever made, plus 10,000 years of rumour trading across a fearful religious galaxy? sanguinius curb stomping the bloodthirster was probably true, as in he might have had a fight similar to gandalf where he used all his strength, kickass weapons, articifer armour and had all his marines backing him up, and maybe after shooting it in the face with a melta it died before he tipped it off a cliff or something, but i don't think they could actually manipulate the fabric of reality like the chaos daemons could. nanotechnology is my bet as to how the primarchs were so resilient, a technology that was obviously lost to the imperium after the heresy.
oh and i'm basing that on their skin being likened to steel when being shot at and stuff, and wounds healing in an instant etc. just made me think maybe they wer like the perfect hybrid of man and machine, like the fruit of the dark age of technology.
En Excelsis wrote: Primarchs arr (IMO) consistently > greater daemons, but probably about = to a named greater daemon if not marginally >.
This would be my position. Sanguinius versus Ka'bandha seem like a good fight. Sanguinius beat him twice in this case, but I would say he did have the plot on his side. If the plot had called for his death I'm sure Ka'bandha could have delivered it, though in the end it was Horus.
Since I'm pretty sure all of the fluff is made up by GW and not real life. I don't really see much reason to question what is probably one of the coolest parts.
Smacks wrote: I don't really see much reason to question what is probably one of the coolest parts.
Because it ruins the story. It's the same reason that superman is an incredibly boring character if you just look at his feats instead of telling a story about his struggle with being "human". When you have a god-like being running around ignoring lascannons to the face and effortlessly crushing everything in their path there's no drama involved. The primarch just walked around the corner and suddenly found himself staring down the gun barrel of a Leman Russ! Will he survive or will this be the end? Of course he survives, he's a primarch and the shot bounces off his face while he rips the tank in half with his bare hands. It's like playing a video game with god mode enabled, it's slightly amusing for a short time but it very quickly becomes too boring and you stop.
On the other hand, if primarchs are mortal and vulnerable (with the ridiculous claims of toughness being nothing more than myths from 10,000 years later) then they become interesting. They're heroes and great leaders, but they're not gods. They can and will die, and every time they step out onto the battlefield they're taking a real risk. Their struggles and triumphs have meaning, since failure is actually a possibility.
pax_imperialis wrote: i agree that no consensus is going to be reached on this thread, as it seems to be devolving into comparing primarchs to wizards and other heroes from alternate media. surely primarchs are just a combination of crazy as forgotten tech that could by rights include genetic manipulation, nanotechnology, cybernetics and the greatest man portable weapons and armour the imperium ever made, plus 10,000 years of rumour trading across a fearful religious galaxy? sanguinius curb stomping the bloodthirster was probably true, as in he might have had a fight similar to gandalf where he used all his strength, kickass weapons, articifer armour and had all his marines backing him up, and maybe after shooting it in the face with a melta it died before he tipped it off a cliff or something, but i don't think they could actually manipulate the fabric of reality like the chaos daemons could. nanotechnology is my bet as to how the primarchs were so resilient, a technology that was obviously lost to the imperium after the heresy.
oh and i'm basing that on their skin being likened to steel when being shot at and stuff, and wounds healing in an instant etc. just made me think maybe they wer like the perfect hybrid of man and machine, like the fruit of the dark age of technology.
Crimson wrote: Void Dragon, that phase sword was excellent catch! Well done sir! (Amusingly enough, in actual game phase sword is just as effective against Primarch as normal power sword, but yes, we can accept that in background it would be more effective.)
Back then, a C'tan Phase Blade nullified both armour and invulnerable saves, when that fluff was in Index Astartes.
As for Luther, the idea that is vastly more powerful than any other chaos marine, Abaddon included does not sit well with me. If Primarchs truly were like Superman, and Chaos can raise a half-marine on their level, why the hell Imperium still stands?
Because Chaos isn't actually unified most of the time, and contradicts and subverts itself constantly. Tzeentch explicitly does it as its job. Also, Luther, despite being a half-Marine, was still the second finest warrior of the Dark Angels, after Jonson.
In IA there were these stories about Primarchs doing amazing things, but to me and many others these were really obviously mythologised versions of the events (I mean are we supposed to believe the mountain lifting?) Then BL took these literally and run with it. This is where the disagreement comes from. Some of us like to think that these things are still myths, some want to take them as historical facts.
You assumed that they were all inaccurate legends of the events, even in cases when they are not stated to be. Ferrus Manus's exploits are explicitly said to be a mythic retelling. Sanguinius's breaking of Ka'Bhanda is not.
Every one agrees that Primarchs were powerful, but the disagreement is about how powerful. I mean I agree that a Primarch can beat a greater daemon, but this does not mean that a Primarch needs to be as strong and tough as a greater daemon. And when we get to the pure comicbook superhero territory, to me it just gets lame. I mean their heroics become less impressive if they were so invincible, of course they will succeed if they're like Superman!
It's weird that "invincible" seems to only be used by people on your side of the debate.
No one on my side has claimed that they were, only that they were all extremely powerful. But they could be killed, several have died, or at least struggled in their battles.
Sanguinius overpowered a Bloodthirster, picked it up, and broke its back over his knee. He is physically on par, at the least.
Crimson wrote: As I've not read the books, how is these Primarchs surviving heavy weapon shots described? Are they armoured? Are they at least wounded?
One such Graham McNeill penned story has Fulgrim taking a power fist to the back of his skull, and shrugging it off. He was wearing a loin cloth while all the high-ranking members of his Legion jumped him.
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En Excelsis wrote: I share your distaste for the "comic levels of proportion". It is for that reason that I do not read the superman comics. Superman is Superman, and the best the writers can throw at him is a human business man with a seemingly endless supply of kryptonite. It's just bad writing.
You've clearly never actually read many Superman comics, lol.
Superman's rogues gallery consists of Lex Luthor, sure, who also happens to be thematically the perfect nemesis for Superman, but it also consists of beings like Darkseid, who is, when written well, threat numero uno.
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Selym wrote: Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
Yarrick has never defeated Ghazghkuull in single combat.
Lynata wrote: Battleships aren't that rare, especially back then when they were still relatively "fresh" compared to M41.
There were exactly three Despoiler class battleships who finished construction, lol.
What do you suggest was on that ship's bridge that was somehow different from any other Chaos vessel? A Traitor Primarch? For you sound as if that's the only thing that could pose a challenge to a Loyalist Primarch.
Please, by all means, point out where I said that.
If you are done constructing strawmen, I'd say there are many possibilities. Daemonic legions, perhaps a Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince or two sprinkled about. Powerful Chaos Sorcerers (One of whom, Kor Phaeron, defeated Roboute Guilliman in single combat). Who can say?
Oh right, no one. Hence why it doesn't work as empirical evidence.
Clearly.
Or maybe some of us just prefer a less weird possibility than a hundred lascannons being installed on some ship's bridge whose crew had no idea Dorn would pay them a visit.
You don't think they would take measures to defend themselves from a Primarch after it became clear Dorn was leading the offense?
So? ~8 feet is pretty big, and I never doubted that the Primarchs are capable fighters.
The only listed height for a Primarch I've ever seen has been ten feet tall. About the size of a larger than average Ogryn, but with more human proportions.
It's still a silly notion, yet at the same time a good example of the hyperbole plagueing many BL novels.
Ah, but that is the beauty of it, and is indeed the flaw in your argument: You can't prove it is hyperbole.
Personally, I don't think of Space Marines as averaging out at mach 3,000, I have them being faster and capable of overwhelming a human being with their speed, with the faster ones (Lucius the Eternal) being capable of bullet-timing, but not possessing speed that would make Goku proud.
But here is the thing: Any decision of what is hyperbole or what isn't is entirely arbitrary without conflicting evidence, and you have no evidence to conflict with my claims of the Primarchs.
If you don't want to accept Dorn's case, and given that the Index Astartes' other accounts offer only vague comparisons (incidents such as young Sanguinius being unharmed by poison "said to burn a man from within in seconds" yet young Leman Russ succumbing to the poison of some villagers' arrows) I would rather wait for someone else to do this - although I kind of doubt that other accounts exist, given that GW's material still treats it as myth and legend, whereas BL novels (and especially Marine novels) are known to exaggerate. I have not read the HH books myself, nor do I have any intention to do so. It's just not my type of story, obviously.
I don't accept Dorn's case because it is so vague and nondescript as to be useless as evidence.
The Leman Russ example merits response though: We are talking about Fenris here. Aka, the most dangerous Death World in the Imperium, even above Catachan. And the inhabitants somehow manage to successfully hunt krakens. On longboats.
Fenris's ecology is so insane and overpowered that I have no trouble believing that arrows made from a Fenrisian beast and its poison could harm a Primarch. Also, I'll note this is explicitly legend.
In the end, none of us truly needs to or even can deliver actual "evidence" of any sort regarding the Primarchs' "formidability". As the authors of the novels you cling to have said themselves, this isn't a matter of right or wrong but of overlapping interpretations differing in details. You prefer a more epic and heroic version of 40k, I a more gritty one. This is really all the explanation we need to realise that we cannot possibly come to a consensus, aside perhaps from at least agreeing on the fluff itself not being as reliable as you seem to make it out to be.
What I prefer doesn't factor into this at all, please stop implying biases on my part when I am simply recounting the facts from the background as they are. Also, I haven't provided a single Black Library example of Primarch formidability, out of "fairness" to you, so I hardly "cling" to them. Appreciate that kindness.
Also, I did deliver actual "evidence".
To me, the nature of the Primarchs as they seem to you simply invalidates too many constants of the setting, both in terms of technology as well as in warfare. In essence, I don't want unrealistic nigh-unkillable superheroes strutting through battlefields and punching holes in tanks, hence I attempted to analise whether I truly have to accept them - said analysis led me to try and read between the lines of GW's fluff, finally resolving to consider the stories of their exploits as clouded by myth and legend.
Interesting.
What constants are those?
But there is one huge elephant in the room you have yet to address: Sanguinius overpowering and breaking Ka'Bhanda's back.
Bloodthirsters are capable of physically destroying heavy tanks, both in the fluff, and in the tabletop itself. You can't deny this. How then did Sanguinius manage this feat, one that is older than some armies within the game, without being capable of doing similar?
Or do you really believe that Ferrus Manus carried "an entire mountain range" on his back from island to island? Do we really *need* to find you something contradicting this, or do you truly consider something as ludicrous as this being even remotely accurate...?
Well, to find the answer to this question, maybe you should have read the post where I explicitly mentioned that Manus's exploits probably are, in fact, hyperbole from a mythic retelling (You know, since before they are recounted they are explicitly said to be).
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Lynata wrote: Ironically, from all I've heard the HH novels focus more on the former than the latter.
You've never read a Horus Heresy book.
Stop making statements concerning topics you don't have any knowledge of.
The Horus Heresy series has duels sprinkled in, but the vast majority of it focuses on the galactic warfare, with sometimes the narrative being used to lead up to an epic duel (Fulgrim), or sometimes there is a book with no duels at all (Mechanicum).
Horus Heresy: Betrayal, for those of us that actually read the introduction, is written from the point of view of a scribe that collected accounts of the 4 legions found within that book, as well as stories concerning the Emperor's rise to power, the Unification Wars, and so on.
This scribe collected journals, incomplete texts, 3rd hand accounts (at best), and so on to compile Betrayal. Some of the stories might be 100% accurate, some of the stories might be allegories based loosely on actual events, and some might be completely false. That's the whole point. There are very few witnesses to a number of the events, many of which are larger than life Paul Bunyan type stories. How many Space Marines were with the Emperor and Horus and actually saw the Emperor being attacked by a giant Ork? 1? 12? And how many of those did the scribe of Betrayal interview? 0?
To put complete stock in these stories would be foolish. To dismiss them out of hand as fan-wankery is missing the point of the book.
I'll actually admit to not reading the intro before now, but the assertion seems to be that the stories are largely accurate, with the scribe having personally known the Sigillite, who knows the Emperor better than anyone.
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Roadkill Zombie wrote: Again Mr Void_Dragon, IF Fulgrim really did take a wraithlord hit to the face and survive, according to the 6th edition rule book on the matter of primarchs, it very well might be true or it very well might be simply myth.
And the Grey Knights could actually be a cabal of Eldar-raping child molesters who sacrifice Eldar young to Slaanesh in vicious blood orgies.
I truly don't understand how people view, "Well, it could all be a bunch of bs, so let's just say it is and ignore all the fluff that paints the Primarchs as demigods, in favor of no fluff that portrays them as less".
Despite 40k's "official" policy, this train of thought is a cop-out, one that manages not to elicit discussion on the fluff, but elude it.[I]
It is fine if you'd prefer to think of the Primarchs as merely Space Marine+, even if the fluff does not really support that view, but frankly, if you're going to ignore the actual fluff dictating the power of Primarchs... Why are you here?
Page 186 of the 6th edition rule book does describe Primarchs as having done some pretty amazing things. It says this about them so it doesn't get much more official than this paragraph:
"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportion. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Manus didn't forge the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?"
Earlier in the description of the Primarchs it talks about the Horus Heresy and says " The story of those battles is told elsewhere..." obviously referring to the Horus Heresy series of books from the Black Library.
Since the paragraph about the primarchs is in the most current rulebook (which, by the way came out after the Horus Heresy, so it is more current) then it does say that officially nobody knows if he really did or didn't. It could all be myth, or it could all be "real".
First of all: That excerpt is so blatantly in-universe that it makes me weep tears of blood.
Second: It can be a reference without relegating the Horus Heresy series to "lolhyperbolic legend" status.
That it "could" be inaccurate doesn't mean it definitely is.
Your claims to know the true history have no basis as officially know one knows.
By all means, go ahead and point out where I claimed to "know the true history".
Your side of the debate sure does seem to have an issue with strawmen.
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Peregrine wrote: Because it ruins the story. It's the same reason that superman is an [i]incredibly boring character if you just look at his feats instead of telling a story about his struggle with being "human". When you have a god-like being running around ignoring lascannons to the face and effortlessly crushing everything in their path there's no drama involved. The primarch just walked around the corner and suddenly found himself staring down the gun barrel of a Leman Russ! Will he survive or will this be the end? Of course he survives, he's a primarch and the shot bounces off his face while he rips the tank in half with his bare hands. It's like playing a video game with god mode enabled, it's slightly amusing for a short time but it very quickly becomes too boring and you stop.
On the other hand, if primarchs are mortal and vulnerable (with the ridiculous claims of toughness being nothing more than myths from 10,000 years later) then they become interesting. They're heroes and great leaders, but they're not gods. They can and will die, and every time they step out onto the battlefield they're taking a real risk. Their struggles and triumphs have meaning, since failure is actually a possibility.
That Magnus the Red happened to destroy Titans with his mind doesn't detract from the fact that his hubris and ironically ignorance doomed him from the beginning, in fact, it arguably enhances the story, demonstrating that despite his incredible power and knowledge, he was still "human".
Primarchs don't effortlessly crush everything in their path. They have been injured, incapacitated, or killed. It just takes a lot to do so. And in fact, in many such scenes the POV character tends to be the ones opposing the Primarch. The tension is not whether or not the Primarch will win. It is whether or not the ones opposing him will prevail, or even survive.
You've never read the Horus Heresy, stop making absolutist claims like you have.
Well, considering how many Primarchs have failed, be it in war, or through other means, your second point is frankly invalid. Their incredible power and knowledge makes their falls hit harder, arguably.
Anyway, as fun as it has been crushing this thread as though it were a grape fruit within my mighty palm, it is easy to forget that this isn't actually topic of the thread.
+DakkaDakka, I, Void__Dragon, your God-Emperor, has this as the final verdict: It is not implausible for a sufficiently powerful Ork to make some purchase towards choking the Emperor. As one of my servants pointed out, there is no upper limit towards the might of an individual Ork, and despite the claims of my heretical detractors, I do not believe the Primarchs to be physically peerless. That a very powerful Ork could cause the Emperor physical pause is not outlandish.
Make no mistake, I have won this thread. Pity those who defy my will, and incur my divine wrath.+
Selym wrote: Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
Yarrick has never defeated Ghazghkuull in single combat.
Oh, really?
First off, Page 58 of the current ork codex, there is a picture of Yarrick in melee with Ghazkhull.
Codex: Armageddon (3E) on page 3 intimates that such a duel occurred.
I can't remember where I read it, but Ghazkhull at least once was able to fight Yarrick in melee, because he took Yarrick to his flagship, and tortured him for fun. Later releasing Yarrick, because he wanted a good fight later on.
In each IG codex that I've seen (2E, 4E, 5E) Yarrick is stated to have taken the power klaw off of another ork warboss, on page 63, 5th ed codex, stating: "...he fought Warboss Uglhard single-handed. The massive greenskin severed the commissar's arm at the elbow with a snapping battle claw. Fighting through the pain and shock, Yarrick beheaded the warboss with a single sweep of his chainsword." So it's not unknown for Yarrick to do such a thing, at the very least.
AHA!
Page 24, IG 5th edition codex, under "The second war for Armageddon":
"Hades Hive eventually falls, and Yarrick is greviously wounded by Ghazkhull himself."
Selym wrote: Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
Yarrick has never defeated Ghazghkuull in single combat.
Oh, really?
First off, Page 58 of the current ork codex, there is a picture of Yarrick in melee with Ghazkhull.
Codex: Armageddon (3E) on page 3 intimates that such a duel occurred.
I can't remember where I read it, but Ghazkhull at least once was able to fight Yarrick in melee, because he took Yarrick to his flagship, and tortured him for fun. Later releasing Yarrick, because he wanted a good fight later on.
In each IG codex that I've seen (2E, 4E, 5E) Yarrick is stated to have taken the power klaw off of another ork warboss, on page 63, 5th ed codex, stating: "...he fought Warboss Uglhard single-handed. The massive greenskin severed the commissar's arm at the elbow with a snapping battle claw. Fighting through the pain and shock, Yarrick beheaded the warboss with a single sweep of his chainsword." So it's not unknown for Yarrick to do such a thing, at the very least.
AHA!
Page 24, IG 5th edition codex, under "The second war for Armageddon":
"Hades Hive eventually falls, and Yarrick is greviously wounded by Ghazkhull himself."
So, he did fight Ghazkhull.
Fighting is not defeating though, Void_Dragon doesn't say that Yarrick didn't fight Ol 'Ghazzy.
Selym wrote: Only one thing wrong in your post, Ghazkhull is noted to have been roughly 20 feet tall, so Yarrick was head-slammed by a two-storey building made of tank armour and extremely dens orkoid flesh, and then proceeded to survive a ground-shaking duel, and actually defeat 'ol Ghazy
Yarrick has never defeated Ghazghkuull in single combat.
Oh, really?
First off, Page 58 of the current ork codex, there is a picture of Yarrick in melee with Ghazkhull.
Codex: Armageddon (3E) on page 3 intimates that such a duel occurred.
I can't remember where I read it, but Ghazkhull at least once was able to fight Yarrick in melee, because he took Yarrick to his flagship, and tortured him for fun. Later releasing Yarrick, because he wanted a good fight later on.
In each IG codex that I've seen (2E, 4E, 5E) Yarrick is stated to have taken the power klaw off of another ork warboss, on page 63, 5th ed codex, stating: "...he fought Warboss Uglhard single-handed. The massive greenskin severed the commissar's arm at the elbow with a snapping battle claw. Fighting through the pain and shock, Yarrick beheaded the warboss with a single sweep of his chainsword." So it's not unknown for Yarrick to do such a thing, at the very least.
AHA!
Page 24, IG 5th edition codex, under "The second war for Armageddon":
"Hades Hive eventually falls, and Yarrick is greviously wounded by Ghazkhull himself."
So, he did fight Ghazkhull.
Fighting is not defeating though, Void_Dragon doesn't say that Yarrick didn't fight Ol 'Ghazzy.
Eh, my bad for mis-reading it.
Still, just found what I was looking for: On page 23 of the ork codex, it says they duelled.
You could say that simply by surviving and helping to turn back the invasion that Yarrick was successful
Smacks wrote: I don't really see much reason to question what is probably one of the coolest parts.
Because it ruins the story. It's the same reason that superman is an incredibly boring character if you just look at his feats instead of telling a story about his struggle with being "human". When you have a god-like being running around ignoring lascannons to the face and effortlessly crushing everything in their path there's no drama involved. The primarch just walked around the corner and suddenly found himself staring down the gun barrel of a Leman Russ! Will he survive or will this be the end? Of course he survives, he's a primarch and the shot bounces off his face while he rips the tank in half with his bare hands. It's like playing a video game with god mode enabled, it's slightly amusing for a short time but it very quickly becomes too boring and you stop.
On the other hand, if primarchs are mortal and vulnerable (with the ridiculous claims of toughness being nothing more than myths from 10,000 years later) then they become interesting. They're heroes and great leaders, but they're not gods. They can and will die, and every time they step out onto the battlefield they're taking a real risk. Their struggles and triumphs have meaning, since failure is actually a possibility.
Yes I can agree with that completely. I don't think a Primarch is tough enough to take a direct Lascanon shot to the face and continue fighting. I think it would kill or seriously maim them. However I think with reflexes, and their armour, that they maybe could take a glancing shot. Or maybe a direct body shot and live to fight another day. I imagine given their rank they would have at least a conversion field too, so heavy weapons might not be that much of an issue anyway.
I've never said that I believe they are simply Space Marines +. They definitely did do some pretty incredible things. The part I take issue with is when Primarch fanboyism gets so rampant as to make them into something they are not. When the fanboyism on the Primarchs gets to the point of misquoting things from the Horus Heresy series to prove the fanboy's point, it makes it hard to have any kind of reasonable discussion without things breaking down into "face it, the EMPRAH is the greatest thing EVER and no one can deny it!..oh..and so are the Primarchs!..oh and while we are at it..So are the SPEZZ MEHREENS!"
"But the Necrons.."
" NO!..The EMprah iz tha Greatest!"
" But the Eldar..."
"NO! HERESY! No one can beat one of the EMPRA's Primarchs!"
" But the Orks..."
"NO!..THa EMprah Is the GREATEST!...He could NEVER be killed by an ORK!...HERESY!"
You see, that is the kind of reasoning that always pops up whenever the subject of the Emperor or the Primarchs gets brought up. Fanboys for the Imperial side of things go crazy and don't allow for normal discussion. They always come into these threads and claim they are going to set things straight. Yet they misquote things all the time and don't tell the complete story to back up their claims.
I've never said that I believe they are simply Space Marines +. They definitely did do some pretty incredible things. The part I take issue with is when Primarch fanboyism gets so rampant as to make them into something they are not. When the fanboyism on the Primarchs gets to the point of misquoting things from the Horus Heresy series to prove the fanboy's point, it makes it hard to have any kind of reasonable discussion without things breaking down into "face it, the EMPRAH is the greatest thing EVER and no one can deny it!..oh..and so are the Primarchs!..oh and while we are at it..So are the SPEZZ MEHREENS!"
That part wasn't necessarily towards you, but rather towards some specific individuals within this thread in general. Should have made that more clear, it was rather late, and I have taken ill, so my posts might come off exactly as I intended them to.
What are they not?
"But the Necrons.."
" NO!..The EMprah iz tha Greatest!"
Pft, the Emperor could only barely beat me while I was starving and weakened.
" But the Eldar..."
"NO! HERESY! No one can beat one of the EMPRA's Primarchs!"
I can't think of any Eldar heroes on par with the Primarchs, honestly.
Eldrad gets thrown around a lot, but he doesn't really have the showings to suggest he is as powerful a psyker as Lorgar, let alone Magnus, for example.
" But the Orks..."
"NO!..THa EMprah Is the GREATEST!...He could NEVER be killed by an ORK!...HERESY!"
Conceivably, it is possible for an Ork more powerful than the Emperor to exist, but it hasn't happened yet, IMO. At least, that we have seen.
You see, that is the kind of reasoning that always pops up whenever the subject of the Emperor or the Primarchs gets brought up. Fanboys for the Imperial side of things go crazy and don't allow for normal discussion. They always come into these threads and claim they are going to set things straight. Yet they misquote things all the time and don't tell the complete story to back up their claims.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: Maugan Ra is a good example of an Eldar hero that is like a Primarch. You cannot kill him permanently like a Primarch can be killed.
He went into the Eye of Terror by himself during the 13th Black Crusade and was not warped by Chaos in any way.
He gathered the remnants of his old Craftworld and led them out of they Eye of Terror.
He stood alone against a Tyranid Swarm from Hive Fleet Leviathan and single handedly defeated it.
And he did all of that without an invulnerable save!
He taught the Eldar Aspect Warriors of the Dark Reaper Aspect how to fight.
Oh right, Maugan Ra...
Christ, you wanna talk about plot armour, Maugan Ra's plot-pauldrons are so large and impregnable that the Space Wolves would be rendered green with envy, lol.
Christ, you wanna talk about plot armour, Maugan Ra's plot-pauldrons are so large and impregnable that the Space Wolves would be rendered green with envy, lol.
And that's the thing. You feel that Maugan Ra's exploits are ludicrous (I would agree that some of them indeed are.) And that's exactly how some of us feel about the tales about Primarchs. Still, all of that is official. Whether these accounts are accurate or mere exaggerated legends is up to the reader.
And relating to that and something you said in your earlier post: I have never claimed that stuff in HH books must be myths, I merely said it might be.
I don't recall any Primarchs jumping out of the Eye of Terror with their craftworlds on their back.
And frankly, I have never really seen anything from Phoenix Lords to justify the hype Dakka and other 40k players give them, with the sole exception of Maugan Ra's hilarious exploits.
Maugan Ra's exploits come off as more ridiculous IMO because they actually are what people claim the BL Primarchs do: Short, not very dramatic descriptions of pwnage.
I certainly think its feasible physically, Ork warbosses are insanely strong. If it was flat out huge, then no doubt it would have the strength, although, surely he would melt its face in 0.1 second with a psychic blast if he thought he was actually going to die?
Maybe he let it grab him, so Horus could help out, and endear himself to him?
To be fair, the fluff is endlessly contradictory, one minute the Big E has an intellect too vast to be even comprehended, and the next he acts like an absolute moron.
Space marines and primarchs are still just people except bigger stronger smarter and better in everyway but they are still human. Shoot them in the face then they die. Bullet meets brain, brain turns to mush.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: Maugan Ra is a good example of an Eldar hero that is like a Primarch. You cannot kill him permanently like a Primarch can be killed.
He went into the Eye of Terror by himself during the 13th Black Crusade and was not warped by Chaos in any way.
He gathered the remnants of his old Craftworld and led them out of they Eye of Terror.
He stood alone against a Tyranid Swarm from Hive Fleet Leviathan and single handedly defeated it.
And he did all of that without an invulnerable save!
He taught the Eldar Aspect Warriors of the Dark Reaper Aspect how to fight.
Oh right, Maugan Ra...
Christ, you wanna talk about plot armour, Maugan Ra's plot-pauldrons are so large and impregnable that the Space Wolves would be rendered green with envy, lol.
As are his real pauldrons. Have you seen those things? Talk about Skull Envy!. The Imperium WISHES they had skulls that big on their shoulders!
On the subject of the Ork strangling the Emperor, if I remember correctly, the ork had just grabbed him, and as an honor thing, Horus cut the orks arm off. I'm not sure the emperor was in any real danger but may very well have been.
As Orks go, they have some of the most powerful dieties backing them up as well. There is an old story about the making of the first Gargants of the orks. In one part of the story it says:
"Gork struggled towards awareness. After centuries of dormancy it was a long process. He sensed other powers in the warp trying to interfere. He blocked a subtle tendril from Slaanesh, ignored a baleful warning from the Emperor, discounted the triumphant cry of Khorne. He reached out with his millenia-old mind and gathered the strength of his people."
Later it says:
"Gork and Mork stirred and a wave of fear passed through the warp..."
it then goes through a bunch of descriptions of what that wave of fear did, the most interesting being:
"On distant Earth, a living corpse in a golden throne opened eyes that held fear for the first time in centuries."
I figure, with Gods like that backing up the Orks, they most certainly could have given some of that power to that Ork and he could very well have been a threat to the Emperor.
Yes, I am well-aware of Gork and Mork's status as the most powerful beings within the known Warp.
The excerpt in Betrayal tells a tale of the Emperor being taken aback by a salvo of powerful Ork plasma weaponry, and, in that moment of weakness, a hulking Ork the size of a dreadnought tried to strangle the Emperor, only for Horus to swiftly cut its arm off.
Void__Dragon wrote: I don't recall any Primarchs jumping out of the Eye of Terror with their craftworlds on their back.
And frankly, I have never really seen anything from Phoenix Lords to justify the hype Dakka and other 40k players give them, with the sole exception of Maugan Ra's hilarious exploits.
Maugan Ra's exploits come off as more ridiculous IMO because they actually are what people claim the BL Primarchs do: Short, not very dramatic descriptions of pwnage.
Phoenix lords are over ten thousand years old immortal warriors. Each of them has seen more battles than all the loyalist Primarchs combined. And if there was an entire book series dedicated to them, then we probably would have much more tales about their exploits, and told in greater detail too.
And you really can't complain about Maugan Ra. It is exactly the same things as with the Primarchs. Of course I think that some of the stories about Maugan Ra might be exaggerated myths, and real events might have been a bit less ludicrous, but as we know, you do not believe in that sort of thing, so it all happened exactly as written.
Void__Dragon wrote: I don't recall any Primarchs jumping out of the Eye of Terror with their craftworlds on their back.
And frankly, I have never really seen anything from Phoenix Lords to justify the hype Dakka and other 40k players give them, with the sole exception of Maugan Ra's hilarious exploits.
Maugan Ra's exploits come off as more ridiculous IMO because they actually are what people claim the BL Primarchs do: Short, not very dramatic descriptions of pwnage.
There really isn't a whole lot of fluff written about them currently, that is probably why. But what is written is that they are quite literally, demi-gods of battle. Aspects of Khaine's warlike abilities so to speak.
Taken in that light, I'm not so sure what Maugan Ra did was so rediculous, being a demi-god and all.
But it still smacks of "mine's bigger than yours' " mentality, which is why I'm not really fond of any of the fluff that has been written since about 4th edition.
Crimson wrote: Phoenix lords are over ten thousand years old immortal warriors. Each of them has seen more battles than all the loyalist Primarchs combined. And if there was an entire book series dedicated to them, then we probably would have much more tales about their exploits, and told in greater detail too.
And you really can't complain about Maugan Ra. It is exactly the same things as with the Primarchs. Of course I think that some of the stories about Maugan Ra might be exaggerated myths, and real events might have been a bit less ludicrous, but as we know, you do not believe in that sort of thing, so it all happened exactly as written.
That proves they are old.
Every single solitary Necron Warrior is older than the entire Eldar species, but they aren't nearly so powerful as a Primarch.
I don't deny that Maugan Ra did what he did. I'm just pointing out it is worse writing than the accomplishments of the Primarchs, if only due to relative sparseness of fluff.
Even though I love ADB's writing, I think Betrayer ends up going past my limit.
First, Lorgar:
Spoiler:
Gets point blank shot by 2, if not 3, heavy rounds from a plasma blastgun fired by a Warhound Titan. Literally gets burnt to a crisp
Then Angron comes in and:
Spoiler:
Just as Lorgar is about to be STEPPED ON by the titan, Angron runs in and lifts the foot up. Angron is actually written as being physically stronger than a titan.
And, 2 or 3 days later, both are fine and back to normal.
Compel wrote: Even though I love ADB's writing, I think Betrayer ends up going past my limit.
First, Lorgar:
Spoiler:
Gets point blank shot by 2, if not 3, heavy rounds from a plasma blastgun fired by a Warhound Titan. Literally gets burnt to a crisp
Then Angron comes in and:
Spoiler:
Just as Lorgar is about to be STEPPED ON by the titan, Angron runs in and lifts the foot up. Angron is actually written as being physically stronger than a titan.
And, 2 or 3 days later, both are fine and back to normal.
It's stuff like that that makes me want to ask him if he wrote the story for his 9 year old son or for the general public.
And by the fluff Plasma Blast Guns destroy whole cities, blow out the power fields of Titans and bring them crashing to thier knees, and hit you with the heat of a Sun, which is a Star...
I'm done with this. A person who could read those bits in spoiler blocks without rolling their eyes so hard it hurt is not a person I will ever be able find common ground with regarding the matters of 40K background. Or any literature, for that matter.
I shall continue ignore BL stuff, as it is apparently written by Mat Ward's eleven-year-old clone-son.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: And by the fluff Plasma Blast Guns destroy whole cities, blow out the power fields of Titans and bring them crashing to thier knees, and hit you with the heat of a Sun, which is a Star...
And Ctan are made of what exactly?
They eat stars. They are not made of stars, lol. They are beings whom transcend matter and energy as lesser races know it.
A Plasma Blast Gun is more destructive, certainly.
But a C'tan Phase Blade is by its very nature anathema to matter. Were there a huge bunker that could take a Plasma Blast Gun without much trouble, a C'tan Phase Blade would easily stab into it, but it couldn't go very deep.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: I'm done with this. A person who could read those bits in spoiler blocks without rolling their eyes so hard it hurt is not a person I will ever be able find common ground with regarding the matters of 40K background. Or any literature, for that matter.
I shall continue ignore BL stuff, as it is apparently written by Mat Ward's eleven-year-old clone-son.
There is more to being a good writer than arbitrarily adhering to some nonexistent acceptable tier of power.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden is a better writer than any codex writer 40k has at the moment. I'm sorry, but by any objective literary standards, this is nigh-absolute a fact.
I shall continue ignore BL stuff, as it is apparently written by Mat Ward's eleven-year-old clone-son.
Yeah, stick to your "superior" GW fluff, with its phoenix lords that can single-handedly defeat a Tyranid splinter fleet, and single-handedly drag a Craftworld out of the Eye of Terror. Bask in the glory of non-BL fluff like Kaldor Draigo and Calgar fighting off an ork horde by himself for an entire day, then punching an Avatar to death. Revel in 6e Daemon excerpts that state that a single Silver Skulls marine is fighting an entire planet of daemons and slowly winning.
Crimson wrote: I'm done with this. A person who could read those bits in spoiler blocks without rolling their eyes so hard it hurt is not a person I will ever be able find common ground with regarding the matters of 40K background. Or any literature, for that matter.
I shall continue ignore BL stuff, as it is apparently written by Mat Ward's eleven-year-old clone-son.
it helps if you're listening to Manowar at the time.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: And by the fluff Plasma Blast Guns destroy whole cities, blow out the power fields of Titans and bring them crashing to thier knees, and hit you with the heat of a Sun, which is a Star...
And Ctan are made of what exactly?
They eat stars. They are not made of stars, lol. They are beings whom transcend matter and energy as lesser races know it.
A Plasma Blast Gun is more destructive, certainly.
But a C'tan Phase Blade is by its very nature anathema to matter. Were there a huge bunker that could take a Plasma Blast Gun without much trouble, a C'tan Phase Blade would easily stab into it, but it couldn't go very deep.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: I'm done with this. A person who could read those bits in spoiler blocks without rolling their eyes so hard it hurt is not a person I will ever be able find common ground with regarding the matters of 40K background. Or any literature, for that matter.
I shall continue ignore BL stuff, as it is apparently written by Mat Ward's eleven-year-old clone-son.
There is more to being a good writer than arbitrarily adhering to some nonexistent acceptable tier of power.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden is a better writer than any codex writer 40k has at the moment. I'm sorry, but by any objective literary standards, this is nigh-absolute a fact.
you are what you eat dude. Dispute that fact.
ADB being the better than any codex writer is totally just your opinion. I happen to like some of the stories in some of the codexes and they certainly weren't written by him.
At any rate, I figure the origional question in this thread has been answered and re answered so I figure I'll let it rest.
ADB being the better than any codex writer is totally just your opinion. I happen to like some of the stories in some of the codexes and they certainly weren't written by him.
At any rate, I figure the origional question in this thread has been answered and re answered so I figure I'll let it rest.
Are you implying I'm a pussy?
Well, admittedly, this is at least partly because of the three main codex writers (I don't know gak about the dude who did Dark Angels), only Kelly can really seem to write some decent fluff on a consistent basis.
But in terms of rounded characters, prose, and a whole bunch of other gak I'm too lazy/tired/ill to name, ADB does indeed crush most of the game designers.
And... Is that really a surprised? ADB, and his contemporaries in BL, are writers, first, last, and always. The guys who do the codices are game designers first and foremost, writers second.
I can't think of any Eldar heroes on par with the Primarchs, honestly.
Eldrad gets thrown around a lot, but he doesn't really have the showings to suggest he is as powerful a psyker as Lorgar, let alone Magnus, for example.
I disagree. Eldrad seems to be on equal footing to the Primarchs IMO. In the context of the story, communication across billions of light years of empty space is simply not done quickly. It requires immeasurable amounts of psychic might, and even for Magnus was not possible without the aid of warp sorcery that Papa E had put the kibosh on.
Yet, Eldrad was not only able to foresee the heresy before it happened, but he was able to reach out across the void and warn the Imperium as well. Mind you, he warned Magnus, which was sort of a sorry plot device, but he still did it. Between that, the Blackstone Fortress, and many other examples, I would say Eldrad is a top-tier badass. Given his insane age and the fact that he's an Eldar, I'd find it perfectly within reason that he's forgotten more than Magnus has ever known. What would happen if the two came to blows is another matter...
Also, forgot who said that the Necrons are older than the Eldar... that is not correct. The only mention of the Eldar in the Necron codex states that they "fought the Necrons alongside the Old Ones". They are just as old or (since it was never stated who came first) possibly older. I would wager that the Eldar were created to battle the Necrons, which would make them roughly the same age. (Necrons, not Necrontyr... different dudes).
I've never said that I believe they are simply Space Marines +. They definitely did do some pretty incredible things. The part I take issue with is when Primarch fanboyism gets so rampant as to make them into something they are not. When the fanboyism on the Primarchs gets to the point of misquoting things from the Horus Heresy series to prove the fanboy's point, it makes it hard to have any kind of reasonable discussion without things breaking down into "face it, the EMPRAH is the greatest thing EVER and no one can deny it!..oh..and so are the Primarchs!..oh and while we are at it..So are the SPEZZ MEHREENS!"
"But the Necrons.."
" NO!..The EMprah iz tha Greatest!"
" But the Eldar..."
"NO! HERESY! No one can beat one of the EMPRA's Primarchs!"
" But the Orks..."
"NO!..THa EMprah Is the GREATEST!...He could NEVER be killed by an ORK!...HERESY!"
You see, that is the kind of reasoning that always pops up whenever the subject of the Emperor or the Primarchs gets brought up. Fanboys for the Imperial side of things go crazy and don't allow for normal discussion. They always come into these threads and claim they are going to set things straight. Yet they misquote things all the time and don't tell the complete story to back up their claims.
OMG you're right! Everyone who enjoys SM fluff is totally irrational and incapable of objectivity, and everyone who hates them is so infinitely wise that their own bias just translates into immutable wisdom.
Strawman much? Throwing the word fanboyism around like a dog with a bone is not making a point. It's making you look naïve, and frankly just validating my point.
I disagree. Eldrad seems to be on equal footing to the Primarchs IMO. In the context of the story, communication across billions of light years of empty space is simply not done quickly. It requires immeasurable amounts of psychic might, and even for Magnus was not possible without the aid of warp sorcery that Papa E had put the kibosh on.
When did Eldrard warn the Imperium through Psychic means across such a long distance? He had an actual meeting with Fulgrim about it which ended badly. He also didn't even try to fight Fulgrim at that point even while other Eldar did. So I'd imagine in a one-on-one fight a Primarch would have a great advantage.
In terms of seeing the future, and certain other things, Eldrad is likely superior to all the Primarchs.
I can't think of any Eldar heroes on par with the Primarchs, honestly.
Eldrad gets thrown around a lot, but he doesn't really have the showings to suggest he is as powerful a psyker as Lorgar, let alone Magnus, for example.
I disagree. Eldrad seems to be on equal footing to the Primarchs IMO. In the context of the story, communication across billions of light years of empty space is simply not done quickly. It requires immeasurable amounts of psychic might, and even for Magnus was not possible without the aid of warp sorcery that Papa E had put the kibosh on.
Yet, Eldrad was not only able to foresee the heresy before it happened, but he was able to reach out across the void and warn the Imperium as well. Mind you, he warned Magnus, which was sort of a sorry plot device, but he still did it. Between that, the Blackstone Fortress, and many other examples, I would say Eldrad is a top-tier badass. Given his insane age and the fact that he's an Eldar, I'd find it perfectly within reason that he's forgotten more than Magnus has ever known. What would happen if the two came to blows is another matter...
Also, forgot who said that the Necrons are older than the Eldar... that is not correct. The only mention of the Eldar in the Necron codex states that they "fought the Necrons alongside the Old Ones". They are just as old or (since it was never stated who came first) possibly older. I would wager that the Eldar were created to battle the Necrons, which would make them roughly the same age. (Necrons, not Necrontyr... different dudes).
I've never said that I believe they are simply Space Marines +. They definitely did do some pretty incredible things. The part I take issue with is when Primarch fanboyism gets so rampant as to make them into something they are not. When the fanboyism on the Primarchs gets to the point of misquoting things from the Horus Heresy series to prove the fanboy's point, it makes it hard to have any kind of reasonable discussion without things breaking down into "face it, the EMPRAH is the greatest thing EVER and no one can deny it!..oh..and so are the Primarchs!..oh and while we are at it..So are the SPEZZ MEHREENS!"
"But the Necrons.."
" NO!..The EMprah iz tha Greatest!"
" But the Eldar..."
"NO! HERESY! No one can beat one of the EMPRA's Primarchs!"
" But the Orks..."
"NO!..THa EMprah Is the GREATEST!...He could NEVER be killed by an ORK!...HERESY!"
You see, that is the kind of reasoning that always pops up whenever the subject of the Emperor or the Primarchs gets brought up. Fanboys for the Imperial side of things go crazy and don't allow for normal discussion. They always come into these threads and claim they are going to set things straight. Yet they misquote things all the time and don't tell the complete story to back up their claims.
OMG you're right! Everyone who enjoys SM fluff is totally irrational and incapable of objectivity, and everyone who hates them is so infinitely wise that their own bias just translates into immutable wisdom.
Strawman much? Throwing the word fanboyism around like a dog with a bone is not making a point. It's making you look naïve, and frankly just validating my point.
There's a big difference between enjoying the space marine fluff and being a raging fanboy about it and not allowing anyone else to have an opinion on the matter without throwing "HERESY!" in their face all the time. It used to happen regularly on this site and it still does happen sometimes.
So don't go acting like I'm wrong for mentioning it. I didn't call you out and I didn't accuse you of it so chill.
I mean, ADB really is probably the best GW author out there. And one of my favourite authors in general.
But yeah, that situation really was, "dude... too much."
It's a bit disappointing too, as he wrote Jain Zar fairly well in Nightstalker.
Aside from that sequence though, Betrayer really is an awesome book and I most certainly have no complaints whatsoever about any 'power level' stuff that the finale causes.
While taking part in this thread, one of my students submitted a report on thousand sons. Instant A, totally not biased! i guess thats the problem with the fluff and certain other, ahem, religious texts. too many different authors with different ideas of belief vs plausibility. i mean half of fulgrim is characters just saying how pretty fulgrim is, so clearly some authors think that the primarchs were gods, whereas others portray them as just the best of the best warriors the emperor has. it's also really tricky when you take in to consideration the amount that chaos influences things, as to whether the primarchs are truly god-like in their power, or just mortals that are being bolstered or protected by the chaos powers. i'm not an experienced dakkanaut (as you can see), i have read much of the literature but not all. earlier in the thread someone mentioned fulgrim or perhaps magnus being shot at by a plasma blastgun (sorry, probably not either but please correct me). if that was a future traitor primarch, is it reasonable to think that the chaos powers would step in to protect their future investment? that's where i get confused, the line between what the primarchs are actually doing themselves and what they are doing while augmented by other worldy forces
Can't believe it's been 10 pages of this. Clearly much people willingly ignores the fact that the vast majority of fiction written for 40K is imperial propaganda designed in a totally manicheist manner, with the odd eldar gloryfying piece, in a likely vein with emo trending. Typically orks are minimized and treated like goons.
I happen to have been told about what the OP was telling by a live testimony; the big E was identified as boss of the 'unies and shot upon by the nearest shoota mob. The nob leading the mob, having run out of ammo, threw off his slugga and got the Emperor with his free hand while fending off Horus' attacks with his big choppa. With his last gasp, the 'umie big boss played a mental trick on the nob and distracted him enough as for Horus catching him off guard and splitting his arm. End of story.
Don't like it? Well I like it, and still have to listen to or read of a direct source other than Horus, who as the Emperor, is not a reliable source. Really!
DOGGED wrote: Can't believe it's been 10 pages of this. Clearly much people willingly ignores the fact that the vast majority of fiction written for 40K is imperial propaganda designed in a totally manicheist manner, with the odd eldar gloryfying piece, in a likely vein with emo trending. Typically orks are minimized and treated like goons.
I happen to have been told about what the OP was telling by a live testimony; the big E was identified as boss of the 'unies and shot upon by the nearest shoota mob. The nob leading the mob, having run out of ammo, threw off his slugga and got the Emperor with his free hand while fending off Horus' attacks with his big choppa. With his last gasp, the 'umie big boss played a mental trick on the nob and distracted him enough as for Horus catching him off guard and splitting his arm. End of story.
Don't like it? Well I like it, and still have to listen to or read of a direct source other than Horus, who as the Emperor, is not a reliable source. Really!
DOGGED wrote: Can't believe it's been 10 pages of this. Clearly much people willingly ignores the fact that the vast majority of fiction written for 40K is imperial propaganda designed in a totally manicheist manner
If you could prove it, people wouldn't ignore it.
Hence why this thread is ten pages long.
"That's just propaganda!"
"Prove it."
"U-uh I d-don't need to prove anything! That's my interpretation hurrr"
En Excelsis wrote: I disagree. Eldrad seems to be on equal footing to the Primarchs IMO. In the context of the story, communication across billions of light years of empty space is simply not done quickly. It requires immeasurable amounts of psychic might, and even for Magnus was not possible without the aid of warp sorcery that Papa E had put the kibosh on.
So uh, when did Fulgrim actually communicate across billions of light years?
Yet, Eldrad was not only able to foresee the heresy before it happened, but he was able to reach out across the void and warn the Imperium as well. Mind you, he warned Magnus, which was sort of a sorry plot device, but he still did it. Between that, the Blackstone Fortress, and many other examples, I would say Eldrad is a top-tier badass. Given his insane age and the fact that he's an Eldar, I'd find it perfectly within reason that he's forgotten more than Magnus has ever known. What would happen if the two came to blows is another matter...
He never spoke to Magnus. He had to physically meet with Fulgrim in order to warn him. And proceeded to run away, incapable of stopping a rampaging Fulgrim.
At the time of the Heresy, Magnus was far more powerful than Eldrad, this is inarguable.
Also, forgot who said that the Necrons are older than the Eldar... that is not correct. The only mention of the Eldar in the Necron codex states that they "fought the Necrons alongside the Old Ones". They are just as old or (since it was never stated who came first) possibly older. I would wager that the Eldar were created to battle the Necrons, which would make them roughly the same age. (Necrons, not Necrontyr... different dudes).
The Eldar were created to fight the Necrons. It is very much stated who came first. The 3e codex dictated that they were created and used to fight during the interim between the war the Old Ones lost, and after the C'tan were eating eachother. That IIRC has not been retconned.
DOGGED wrote: Can't believe it's been 10 pages of this. Clearly much people willingly ignores the fact that the vast majority of fiction written for 40K is imperial propaganda designed in a totally manicheist manner
If you could prove it, people wouldn't ignore it.
Hence why this thread is ten pages long.
"That's just propaganda!"
"Prove it."
"U-uh I d-don't need to prove anything! That's my interpretation hurrr"
etc. for ten pages.
Not, really! I already said that I was told so by an alive testimony. He's called "the ol' ork in da mountain" and was a warp tripper before, so he's spent a good share of time travelin' here 'n' there; so while he was bron millennia ago, h'es not really aged so. That's also why he can tell those things, 'cos he was really there!
Now if you wanna put his sayings into question, there you go. But really, he was not braggin' and that. It was more like: hey, I remember one guy Grashnak. He was a nob, a mean guy you know? No, no, really, a mean guy; see, I remember once, we were fighting some beakies down there, and there was that sissy 'un, the 'umie emprah, with his gleamin' armor, and Grashnak sees him, nods at Varag and says " thirty teef if I get that one", and Varag says "deal", and there goes Grashnak...
People puts much too much seriousness into some more than doubtful, dubious, suspect works by suspicious scribes. I for one would not bet a toof for anything comin' out of a design studio which could retcon everything next month.
Well, he is a Crazy powerful Psyker, But he is HUMAN. Albeit he obviously cant die from age. Also, orks are supposed to be Rediculously Strong. So the Strongest out a strong race would Probably be able to bench-press Dreadnoughts, maybe even a small titan with ease. So i say it was possible. It happened. As he is Human, he was probably exhausted.
Rogal Dorn Died on the bridge of a ship. So, what is likely to be on the bridge? some marines, Deamons, Deamon Princes, cultists. Not Hundreds of Everything though.
Primarchs are tough, but killable. If it bleeds, it Dies. There have been many times where they were injured.
Also, author is the one who decides how amazing everything is. So take that into account also, when talking of them.
But yes, it happened. It did't Strike me as odd though. I always saw him as a powerful human though, not some Immortal Demi-God of plot and cheese
The emperors long been described as exercising his true strength in the warp, fighting sweet mind battles with the chaos gods. So while he might have had his physical form beaten up by an ork, sinde his internment on the throne hes effectivelyinvincible against anything with a soul. So not orks or tau unfortunately.
I think it was in the Old CSM codex that it says that The Emperor nearly died from an Ork boy but nothing mentioning of chocking but Horus did carve the Ork into red mist IIRC...
Was probably some stupid test, "lets see who comes to my aid the first, they will clearly be the most loyal and i shall make them warmaster snarf snarf"
The Emperor didnt get ''immortal'' untill around the end of the Horus Heresy when secret cults emerged ( Those are illigal since the Emperor forbade any kind of Worship) They started a religion around the awesomeness and goodness of the emperor.. In the warhammer universe massive thinking of something can create something... Like the Chaos god Slaanesh, he was created by the eldar because of their obscene and vulgar ideas... And also,.. if the Golden Throne wasnt there, the emperor would die, just like if the Imperium stopped feeding him thousands of psychers each week/day
yes the emperor is powerfull, skilled and such but you know orks,.. they dont come in squads of 10, they come by the thousand/millions... every man of the imperium has his hands full. A regular ork is as powerfull as a Normal Marine,.. Nobs ARE MORE powerfull then a regular marine,.. sometimes even more powerfull then a captain/chaptermaster And a Warboss stands even above that...
It has always been the Skill and the confidence of a Marine that beat an ork,.. in lore/fluff orks tend to be feral an instintive fighters, that are brutal and quick..
So imagine this,...
The emperor with his custodian guard,.. should not be more then a squad of 10 around them,.. A custodian is as powerfull als a chapter master or at least a captain... Since the emperor is there,... there should be at least a primarch in that battle as well... But fighting through orks is like trying to get somewhere fast through thick layers of branches and woodland with a machette,... and those things you cut will kill you..
Its also a fact that a lot of marines get overconfident a lot and also regard Honor as a thing almost above the emperor....
If a Warboss with a Squad of Nobs could get close to the Emperor, then yes, he could get his hand on him...
When using psychic powers one has to concentrate,.. try that with a massive Ork fist around your throat,.. the emperor most likely used his psychic powers to prevent his throat from crushing... Also Psychic powers attract the powers of Chaos, a thing the emperor was very carefull about... And those power drain energy quickly Though strong, i am convinced a Ork like Ghazkull Mag Uruk thraka is stronger in strength by far... Also Orks tend to have FNP like abilitys,.. their Skin is hard and nigh impenetrable... Yes Orks in the tabletop games are actualy weaker then in the Fluff..
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: The Emperor didnt get ''immortal'' untill around the end of the Horus Heresy when secret cults emerged ( Those are illigal since the Emperor forbade any kind of Worship)
The Emperor was at the bare minimum 29,000 years old by the time of the Heresy.
They started a religion around the awesomeness and goodness of the emperor.. In the warhammer universe massive thinking of something can create something... Like the Chaos god Slaanesh, he was created by the eldar because of their obscene and vulgar ideas... And also,.. if the Golden Throne wasnt there, the emperor would die, just like if the Imperium stopped feeding him thousands of psychers each week/day
The Emperor was already for lack of better term a "god". His psychic power was threatening the Realm of Chaos, per Collected Visions and the words of either Erebus or Ingethel (I forget which).
yes the emperor is powerfull, skilled and such but you know orks,.. they dont come in squads of 10, they come by the thousand/millions... every man of the imperium has his hands full. A regular ork is as powerfull as a Normal Marine,.. Nobs ARE MORE powerfull then a regular marine,.. sometimes even more powerfull then a captain/chaptermaster And a Warboss stands even above that...
A regular Ork is not as powerful as a normal Marine, the fluff does not and has never supported that notion.
It has always been the Skill and the confidence of a Marine that beat an ork,.. in lore/fluff orks tend to be feral an instintive fighters, that are brutal and quick..
Plus the superior physical strength, speed and reflexes, and better equipment.
So imagine this,...
The emperor with his custodian guard,.. should not be more then a squad of 10 around them,.. A custodian is as powerfull als a chapter master or at least a captain...
Since the emperor is there,... there should be at least a primarch in that battle as well... But fighting through orks is like trying to get somewhere fast through thick layers of branches and woodland with a machette,... and those things you cut will kill you..
Its also a fact that a lot of marines get overconfident a lot and also regard Honor as a thing almost above the emperor....
Not really sure what that last part is supposed to be reference towards.
If a Warboss with a Squad of Nobs could get close to the Emperor, then yes, he could get his hand on him...
If this Ork was the size of a Dreadnought, and the Emperor had been stunned by a salvo of plasma weaponry, then sure, since that is reportedly what happened.
When using psychic powers one has to concentrate,.. try that with a massive Ork fist around your throat,.. the emperor most likely used his psychic powers to prevent his throat from crushing...
The Emperor is the most powerful psyker to ever live. With but a flex of his mental power, he forced the Word Bearers Legion to kneel before him, and then telekinetically forced them to the ground on their chests. Stopping an Ork from crushing him wouldn't be particularly difficult for him, and indeed, nowhere does it say the Ork was succeeding at doing so, in fact, it was "struggling".
Also Psychic powers attract the powers of Chaos, a thing the emperor was very carefull about... And those power drain energy quickly
Chaos has no purchase on the mind of the Anathema. As for the latter point, once more, most powerful psyker ever.
Though strong, i am convinced a Ork like Ghazkull Mag Uruk thraka is stronger in strength by far... Also Orks tend to have FNP like abilitys,.. their Skin is hard and nigh impenetrable... Yes Orks in the tabletop games are actualy weaker then in the Fluff..
Stronger? Possibly, but unproven. By far? Unlikely.
Weaker than in the fluff? Possibly, as are many things in the tabletop, but not any more than said things.
Sure he was old,.. but couls still be killed in battle, so not truly immortal IMO,... Just like elves,.. they can grow old but thats it,.. i call that half immortal... but thats My opinion about it,..
Just being freakishly strong and gifted doesnt make you a god,.. Though i understand your statement about it,..
And it has never been stated hat directly, but it has always been said that a regular ork could easliy kill a marine, which like a guardsman, tau, gaunt, eldar will fail to do with his brute strength, also orks in the fluff have an amazing regeneration and even some form of reanimation protocols,.. some orks that are killed can get back up after a couple of days,.. Also in a couple of books space marine captains have to struggle to the extreme to kill a warboss,.. I quite clearly remember a passage in a novel, though i fail to remember which one (will look that up) that a captain is almost killed by a warboss even with the aid of 2 or 3 of his personal retinue... And most deaths of captains and chapter masters in a battle against orks have always been at the hand of a warboss.. Though once more,.. it is not stated that directly here and there,... and in the SM codex no one can kill a marine (thats the general idea/feel they want to give) While in xenos codexes marines get almost toyed with ( DE Codex, Ork codex battle of armageddon)
Superior physical strength, mweh somewhat,... the difference aint that great,, some orks have been know to outspeed Marines and reflexes, i dont know,.. i will without a doubt grant that you can and most likely are right on this,.. but orks have been know to have awesome reflexes,.. I wont even argue about the equipment, that is, and always will be a 100% true fact... Yes marines kill dozen of orks,.. mostly at range,.. they dont want to get in CC with orks that badly, they know that is extremely dangerous...But they will if needed, as always, the resolve of a marine is strong..
The last part,.. Its also a fact that a lot of marines get overconfident a lot and also regard Honor as a thing almost above the emperor.... i think you mean this? Individual marines have been known ( just read the first Ultra marine omnibus) to act somewhat reckless for honor, most of the time it works. Is more like, a marine is always stable untill it comes to honor,.. insult his honor and he is ready to try something reckless to regain it or prove another wrong,.. If this happens, he could leave formation without orders and in that he could split up his squad as other marines will try to get him back in formation... This doesnthappen a lot,.. but i have read enough novels where marines try reckless thinks in pursuit of honor and in such cases even break formation.. Which could cost lives,.. This all could say this happened and a way to the emperor presented itself.. Space marines are awesome, but far from perfect.
And warbosses are ridiculously tall,.. and the emperor was only a head taller than his primarchs i believe,.. and a primarch is only a head taller than a normal marine,.. so yeah, i believe a warboss even a simple one, could be taller,.. besides, have you seen pictures of ghazkull in comparison with guardsman? He is easily 4 times taller...
The Emperor is the most powerful psyker to ever live. With but a flex of his mental power, he forced the Word Bearers Legion to kneel before him, and then telekinetically forced them to the ground on their chests. Stopping an Ork from crushing him wouldn't be particularly difficult for him, and indeed, nowhere does it say the Ork was succeeding at doing so, in fact, it was "struggling".
You are right, though even the best cant always peform at 100% efficiancy, even the best make mistakes, even the best can get startleded,.. and i believe though awesome he is,.. the emperor doesnt have infinite energy to cast an infinite amount of spells,.. But i have yet to read the novel where this is stated, so yeah i could be wrong... And psychic powers can be felt from the warp,.. surely the awesome powers of the emperor can as well,.. but yeah since he is awesome his psychic defenses would also be,.. just by saying this doesnt mean chaos will kill the emeperor or something like that,... I also believe the chaos gods could always sense the emperor but never do anything about it..
And yes, i believe Orks like Ghazkull are by far stronger on the physical side,.. but the emperor could easily boost his power with psychic powers and then crush orks like ghazkull, sure easily..
