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Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 13:09:27


Post by: mercer


I am steadily working my work through the review of the Chaos Daemons codex. I thought I would share this with the good folk of Dakka.

This will be a living post, I will update it as I progress through the review.

Keep in mind that the review is down to my own opinion and your own opinions maybe different from my own

Link from my blog: http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2013/03/chaos-daemons-codex-review-hq.html

Part one of many parts of the Chaos Daemon codex review kicks off with the HQ. Lets be having it.

HQ

Bloodthirster

The Bloodthirster is the ultimate badass and now fits the background of ass kickery with profile skull crushing. The 'Thirster is WS10 BS10 S6 T6 W5 I9 A6 LD9 SV3+ all for 250 points.

The Bloodthirster comes with a lash of khorne (assault 1 S6 AP2) and an axe of khorne (AP2 wound to roll of 6+ inflicts instant death). Don't forget this dude can fly as well.

You can take 50 points worth of daemonic rewards in any combination: lesser rewards, greater rewards and exalted. Note that these rewards are like psychic powers and are randomly rolled for. You can of course switch them for a 'primaris' reward if you do not like the result. I would probably take greater rewards as they offer some great benefits i.e +1 wound, it will not die, feel no pain, re-roll invulnerable saves, S8 AP1 lance weapon, armourbane and fleshbane - plenty of juicy bonus's the greater rewards are only 20 points each.

Note that the Bloodthirster is a force multiplier and Daemon Princes who have the daemon of khorne upgrade are heavy support instead of HQ choices.

Summary

The Bloodthirster is an expensive animal but is well worth the cost. In close combat the Bloodthirster is going to maul basic troops with ease and chop up characters in challenges. Don't forget that the 'Thirster gets furious charge as it is a daemon of khorne.

Rating: 8/10

Lord of Change

The Lord of Change is pretty much same profile as the Bloodthirster (which is funny as you'd thought the 'Thirster would be stronger), though doesn't has as good WS, BS, I and A. It does cost 20 points less though.

You can also have daemonic rewards, which the greater rewards are probably best considering the LoC only has a 5+ inv, though can re-roll 1's when saving as it is a daemon of tzeentch. In addition the daemon if tzeentch rules gives +3 when using psychic powers, though the giant daemon bird is LD9 anyway.

The LoC (Lord of Change) is a flying monstrous creature and is a mastery level 2 psyker, you can pay 25 points and make it a mastery level 3. LoC can use divination and change disciplines. The change discipline is unique for Tzeentch Daemons and as you can guess is all shooting based. The bad news about these shooting powers is all have this silly warpflame rule; if the enemy unit suffers an unsaved wound, then the unit must take a toughness test, if it passes it gains feel no pain (this stacks)!If failed the unit suffers D3 wounds no armour or cover saves.

Here's the powers:

Flickering Fire of Tzeentch - 24" S5 AP4 assault 2D6, soul blaze - you can use 1,2 or 3 warp charge points to use this power, for each warp charge point you use you add an extra D6 - so 3 warp charge points would fire 4D6 shots! Add in prescience and that re-roll armour save one from divination and you're laughing.

Tzeentch's Firestorm - 24" SD6+1 AP- assault 1, blast

Bolt of Tzeentch - 24" SD6+4 AP2 assault 1

Infernal Gateweay - 18" SD6+4 AP1 assault 1, blast

Like the Bloodthirster, Lord of Changes makes Princes with the daemon of tzeentch upgrade heavy support choices.

Summary

Personally I do not think the standard Tzeentch powers are that good and find them very unreliable. Taking a big ass Daemon with a 5+ inv save costing 255 points just to fire a crap load of S5 shots is a bit much. Sure there's some good divination powers i.e prescience and some other powers, though you are hoping you get good luck. If you add in greater rewards this Daemon-Chicken gets more survivable, but costs a lot more points - you're talking close to 300 points!

Rating: 5/10

Great Unclean One



I believe the GuO's (Great Unclean One) points have increased in the new Chaos Daemons codex. You get a not so good shooty but more wounds LoC for 190 points.

The GuO does have poisoned attacks (wounds on a 4+), handy for those re-rolls against weaker stuff and against other monstrous creatures. The GuO is also a psyker, you can upgrade to mastery level 3 for 25 points a level. You can take powers from biomancy and plague disciplines. Here are the plague powers:

Stream of Corruption - template S- AP3 assault 1, poisoned (4+)

Plague Wind - 12" S1 AP2 assault 1, large blast, poisoned (4+)

Miasma of Pestilence - blessing which targets the psyker. Start of each fight sub-phase roll a D3, all enemy units locked in close combat with the target suffer penalties to weapon skill and initiative equal to the result.

Rancid Visitations - nova power with 12" range. Enemy unit takes a toughness test and if fails suffers a wound with no armour or cover saves. If an enemy model is slain the unit must continue to take a toughness test and suffer wounds until test is passed or unit is destroyed.

You can also take the daemonic rewards, one again I suggest greater rewards, which will make the GuO very tough to tackle.

Like all Greater Daemons, the Great Unclean One can make Daemon Princes heavy support if they have the daemon of nurgle upgrade.

Summary

The Great Unclean One can be a serious tough cookie if given the right powers and daemonic rewards, perhaps take the template standard plague power and then two powers from biomancy (hope for iron arm and endurance, if not smite is fine as can fire two weapons) and then throw on greater rewards. Deep strike the GuO down and mooch into combat and trash infantry.

Rating: 7/10

Keeper of Secrets



The Keeper of Secrets (KoS) is the last of the Greater Daemons and also the cheapest. It has +1 initiative over the Bloodthirster, though rest of it's profile is about same as the LoC. The KoS costs 190 points.

As the KoS is a daemon of slaanesh it has the fleet rule and can run an additional 3" (remember the KoS is a single unit model).

You can take daemonic rewards and as the previous Greater Daemons the greater reward is probably the better one.

As standard the KoS is a mastery level 1 psyker, you can make it a mastery level 3. The KoS can generate powers from the telepathy and excess disciplines. Here are the excess powers:

Lash of Slaanesh - 24" S6 AP- assault 1, rending

Acquiescence - malediction which targets enemy unit within 18". Unit suffers -5 to initiative and cannot use counter-attack or overwatch.

Pavane of Slaanesh - focused witchfire 24". Model must take a leadership test, if it fails no armour or cover saves. If target is slain randomly select another model in the unit, continue to do this until leadership test is passed or unit is destroyed.

Cacophonic Choir - nova 12". Each target unit must rolled 2D6 and subtract leadership, unit suffers number of wounds equal to difference with no armour or cover saves. Units must take a pinning test.

Summary

As the Keeper of Secrets is pretty damn quick and Daemons are a horde army now, I can see the KoS being a popular choice. If you roll well on the telepathy table you could get invisibility, add this with those greater rewards and you have a tough fast monster coming your way.

Rating: 7/10

Daemon Prince

Ok, the Daemons Daemon Prince is the same as the CSM Daemon Prince and costs the same points, 145 points!

You have to upgrade the Prince to be a daemon of one of the four gods, this costs 10-25 points. If you're going foot I would consider the Slaanesh daemon as this can make your Prince pretty quick. If you want a super psyker then go Tzeentch. Nurgle and Khorne are interesting, especially for flyers.

You can give the Prince wings (becomes flying monstrous creature), warp forged armour (3+ armour save), 50 points of daemonic rewards and up to mastery level 3 psyker. If a psyker can generate powers from the respective disciplines.

Summary

I keep looking at the Daemon Prince and shaking my head, why G.W, why? Doesn't G.W like selling Daemon Prince models or something? The only decent way I can think to run the Prince is on foot (flying Prince is way too expensive) and take the 3+ armour save along with daemon of slaanesh or daemon of nurgle; these give the best survivability options and speed to get into close combat. The standard nurgle power maybe useful, without a psyker upgrade I can't see what the Prince is going to do.

Rating: 3/10

** Tactica article from my blog: http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2013/03/the-best-anti-flyer-for-chaos-daemons.html

Herald of Khorne

For 55 points this little angry red dude of choppy death isn't too bad.

Take some daemonic gifts and you can get something extremely hard to kill, or something which offers some interesting benefits, though I wouldn't say they are a must.

More interestingly the HoK (Herald of Khorne) can take three loci, these range from 10-25 points and unlike the daemonic rewards they are set in what they do - this makes Heralds very attractive. You can get adamantium will, rage and also hatred special rules - these effect the unit the Herald is with. Rage and hatred would be very useful in a unit of Khorne Daemons.

You can also take a Juggernaut, which maybe an option as the Herald becomes T5 and cavalry. You can take a Bloodthrone which is an av12-12-10 3 hull point open topped vehicle. If the Bloodthrone causes an unsaved wound from hammer of wrath attacks, then on a 4+ it can re-gain a single hull point. Note that daemon of khorne models are S7 when doing hammer of wrath. Also the loci rule extends 6". Though the chariot does cost 75 points which is a lot considering what you get.

Summary

Not too bad to boost some Bloodletters with the loci abilities. Some of the rewards maybe useful, particularly if you roll well on the daemonic reward and get it will not die, especially if you have a chariot.

Rating: 6.5/10

Herald of Tzeentch

This little guy is only 45 points and is also a mastery level 1 psyker.

You can take the daemonic rewards, though I am not sure if they will be useful for the HoT (Herald of Tzeentch), though a mutating warp blade from under the greater daemonic gifts maybe interesting. You can make up to a mastery level 3 psyker though.

You can take one of three loci which can give you; when a model is slain add D3 Blue Horror counters; roll a D6 at start of turn and all models switch this for their strength; +1 strength to all hits caused by psychic powers.

The HoT can take a disc of tzeentch or a burning chariot. The disc gives +1 attack and also makes the Herald become a jetbike. The chariot is av10-10-10 open topped and also a fast vehicle, which for 50 points costs a lot and you do not get a lot in return.

Summary

A cheapo mastery level 3 HoT zooming around on a disc blasting out shots would be very useful. If not add in the loci which gives +1 strength to hits from psychic powers and throw in a large unit of Pink Horrors and make them bad boys S6.

Rating: 7/10

Herald of Nurgle

The Herald of Nurgle costs the same points as the Herald of Tzeentch and is a tough dirty cookie.

Usual daemonic gift options, I would consider greater rewards as the balesword isn't too bad though the greater etherblade is nice. You still have the nice greater reward options as well.

You can make the HoN (Herald of Nurgle) a mastery level 2 psyker, I would consider a mastery level 1 and take that AP3 template power.

Loci options are; to hit rolls in close combat of a 6+ are poison 2+; all models have feel no pain; to hit rolls of a 6+ in close combat immediately causes additional S4 poisoned (4+) hit.

You can take a palanquin which gives +2 wounds and +1 attack.

Summary

A mastery level 2 HoN on a palanquin with the loci gift which gives feel no pain would be very nice at tarpitting units in the back field i.e objective holding units, Devastators, Long Fangs etc. Also brilliant for boosting survival rates of Plaguebearers.

Rating: 7/10

Herald of Slaanesh

Ok, last of the Heralds and the Herald of Slaanesh also costs a cheapo 45 points.

You can take the normal daemonic rewards, the lash of torment is interesting (2D6 shots) and of course the greater rewards are always nice.

You can make the HoS into a mastery level 2, might be useful, most powers in the excess discipline are ok.

Loci abilities are; move through cover; +5 to initiative; re-roll to hit in combat plus challenges cannot be refused and can only be accepted by model's of the Daemon player's choice.

You can also take a Steed or options for either of the Slaanesh chariots. The exalted chariot maybe worth it (costs 80 points) as the shredder wargear on it inflicts D6 hammer of wrath with rending rule for each hull point is has; the chariot has 4 hull points and is av11-11-10.

Summary

Not a too bad Herald. You could take a nice greater reward (greater etherblade +1 strength AP2) and then take the loci which means no refusing challenges and if you fancy it throw the HoS onto a chariot and start doing a billion hammer of wrath attacks with the rending rule.

Rating: 7/10

Overall

The Daemon Prince has got the sad end of the stick and is probably the worst HQ in the book. It's a real shame as it is a cracking model plus I just brought one.

Lord of Change is unreliable due to strength of powers and gives feel no pain. This applies to the Herald of Tzeentch too, but this guy costs a lot cheaper.

Keeper of Secrets would fit nicely with Daemons as they have gone the foot route now and will fit in chariot lists.

The Bloodthirster is the most killy Greater Daemon, though the Great Unclean One isn't far behind and probably might be harder to kill if you get some good psychic powers and greater daemonic rewards.

Out of the Heralds a Herald of Slaanesh seems the most interesting on a chariot along with the Herald of Tzeentch on a disc. HoS can zoom up and mash things up in close combat, is basically a Rhino with four hull points while a HoT can zoom about and blast side armour of vehicles, just hope you roll well for strength!

** Also note that you can take TWO Heralds per HQ slot, so that's FOUR Heralds as HQs.**

Troops

Link from my blog: http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2013/03/chaos-daemons-codex-review-troops.html

Bloodletters

The Bloodletter has changed slightly in the new Daemon codex and is now only T3 and for some reason is BS5, which I am not sure why as it has no shooting weapons - please correct me if I am wrong. The Bloodletter has also taken a points reduction and now you can get a unit of 10 for 100 points.

The Bloodletter has a hellblade as standard (AP3 close combat weapon) and naturally is a daemon of khorne, which gives the 'Letter furious charge.

You can take a squad leader (Bloodreaper) and take a choice of lesser or greater daemonic rewards. Lesser rewards maybe useful.

You can also take an instrument of chaos and an icon of chaos;

The former lets you tag along another Daemon unit of the same daemons when rolling for reserves, providing both units are in reserve and the first unit is deep striking. In addition the instrument lets you re-roll Warp Storm Table results.

While the latter stops deep striking scattering if both units have the same daemonic alignment i.e both daemons of khorne, if not only scatter 1D6". You can upgrade the icon to a banner of blood, this gives 6+D6" for charge distances (instead of normal 2D6), but can only be used once.

Summary

The Bloodletters aren't too bad unit and a Herald of Khorne can give them some more combat out put with the loci abilities. The problem I see is when this unit either deep strikes or walks across the table it is just going to get blown to bits, they are only T3 with a 5+ inv and no one in their right mind is going to let the Bloodletters reach combat.

I guess what you could do is take a basic unit and have them camp mid field on objectives; this way they can deter would be assaults who wish to claim objectives and also get stuck in if the time is needed.

Rating: 5/10

Pink Horrors

Like the Bloodletters, the Pink Horrors have seen a massive point drop - you can now get a unit of 10 for 90 points while in the old codex the same unit would cost 170 points! The Pink Horror is also the overall 'weakest' Daemon troop, when I say weakest I mean it is just as weak as Daemonettes and Bloodletters but it's combat skill is no where near as good as these.

Horrors have the brotherhood of sorcerers, blue horrors and magic made manifest rules. Blue horrors puts some counters down when a Pink Horror is killed in close combat which attacks at S2 I1. If you take Pink Horrors in unit 11-15 they generate 2 warp charge points and 16-20 generates 3 warp charge points.

You can upgrade one Pink Horror to an Iridescent Horror, who can access lesser and greater daemonic rewards. I wouldn't bother with the greater rewards as they aren't worth it for a single model while the lesser might be interesting if you get the right rolls.

Horrors can take an instrument and an icon of chaos; the icon can be upgraded to a blasted standard which gives an additional 2D6 S4 AP- hits. This can only be done once per game and is done before the unit makes a shooting attack (including overwatch) and before psychic tests.

Summary

As a shooty player I've always had a little soft spot for the Pink Horrors' shooting ability and over time the models have grown on me. I would load up on Pink Horrors units of 20 and then they can knock out 4D6 shots from the primaris Tzeentch psychic power, of course you still get the choice of other powers too.

I can see Pink Horrors been handy with Daemonettes, Daemonettes run up while Pink Horrors come behind and lay down fire power.

Rating: 6.5/10

Plaguebearers

The poor Plaguebearer took a nerf in the new Chaos Daemons codex; lost feel no pain and toughness 5, though still the Plaguebearer is the toughest among the Chaos Daemons troops.

Though it is not all gloom, as a daemon of nurgle they gain the shrouding special rule and also have defensive grenades. In addition their blades can glance any vehicle on a 6+ when rolling to penetrate - rust them Land Raiders up! Also you can do now get 10 Plaguebearers for 90 points, previously they would cost 150 points.

You can make one Plaguebearer a Plagueridden, the Plagueridden can access lesser and greater daemonic rewards. I would consider lesser rewards though would probably leave the greater rewards for the same reason as the other troop choices - only a single model.

You also have the option for an instrument and icon of chaos. You can upgrade the icon to a plague banner which gives poison (2+) for close combat. The banner must be popped at the start of the fight sub phase and can only be used once per game.

Summary

The Plaguebearer is still probably the best close combat orientated troop choice - Bloodletters hit hard but can't take punishment and Daemonettes can't take punishment and hope for lucky rends. The plague banner is also in combat if you really want to destroy the enemy unit, well worth the 20 points.

I can still see Plaguebearers been the default troop choice, though Pink Horrors and Daemonettes may get a look in.

Rating: 8/10

Daemonettes

Like the Pink Horrors and the Plaguebearers, the Daemonette also costs 90 points for a unit of 10. I might be wrong but I do not think the Daemonettes took a nerf.

As daemon of slaanesh the Daemonettes get the fleet rule, rending rule and can also run an additional 3".

You can upgrade a Daemonette to an Alluress, who can take lesser and greater daemonic rewards. Out of these I would only take the lesser rewards, I personally don't think the greater of worth it as they add survivability and it isn't worth the points cost just for a single model.

Daemonettes can also take an instrument and icon of chaos, this icon can be upgraded to a rapturous standard. The standard issues an -D3 penalty to weapon skill to ALL models in close combat - this doesn't effect daemons of slaanesh or models which have mark of slaanesh. Like other standards this can only be used once. As Daemonettes are WS5 they will be hitting on a 3+ most of the time, though the enemy could be hitting on anything from a 3+ to a 5+ depending on how good your roll is.

Summary

The Daemonettes aren't too bad, though I still worry about their lower toughness and invulnerable save and I can see them just not making combat or when they do they won't have enough numbers.

For example 10 Daemonettes charge 10 Tactical Marines. The Daemonettes strike first 30 attacks - hit with 20 - wound with 7 (one rend) - 2 dead Tacticals plus the rend = 3 dead Tactical Marines.

The Tacticals strike back with 9 attacks (Sgt) - hit with 5 - wound with 3 - 2 dead Daemonettes.

I think next turn the combat maybe a draw, if not Daemonettes may pull a victory.

Rating: 6.5/10

Nurglings

Nurglings are now 15 points a swarm, I think they have stayed the same points and profile wise (maybe got an extra wound?) from the previous codex.

Naturally the Nurglings are daemons of nurgle (shrouding, slow and purposeful and defensive grenades). They also have the infiltrate rule and of course are swarms. These two rules go hand in hand as the Nurglings can infiltrate into terrain and aren't slowed in terrain because they are swarm and then add shrouding, the little buggers will have a 2+ cover save!

Summary

Handy for tarpits but that's about it. Without feel no pain and a bite back the Nurglings won't last as long as they used to.

Rating: 5/10

Overall

The Bloodletter sports the most killy power with the AP3 choppy sword, however T3 and 5+ inv means you won't see loads of them in combat. I think you will need 20 of them and start on the field and take the banner to give you the super assault range. You could deep strike loads of units of 10 if you wanted. I don't expect Bloodletters to be that popular due to the weaknesses they have and they also have the higher points cost of all Daemon troops.

Pink Horror is an interesting unit and fairly costs. Can be unreliable with the primaris psychic power (4D6 assault S5 if using 20 Horrors) and the general Tzeentch powers aren't mega reliable either. I would say the Pink Horrors are just meh and that's all they will ever be. The exalted locus from a Herald maybe useful, though adds up in points just to get a +1 strength bonus.

Plaguebearers I still think are the best troop unit. Sure they cannot shoot, but they can take some damage thanks to being the toughest Daemon troops and can look after objectives like a boss. Thanks to the poison weapons they are not too bad in combat and can deal with vehicles.

Daemonettes suffer the same problem as Bloodletters; can't take punishment well and need numbers to achieve some real damage. At least they have fleet and run 3" extra as standard. These benefits put them over the Bloodletters.

Nurglings are fun if you have some points left and a spare troop choice. I don't think they make as good tarpit as they did before thanks to loss of feel no pain.

Elites

Bloodcrusher of Khorne

The Bloodcrusher has taken a bit of a nerf in the new codex; it has lost the T5, 3+ armour save and like all Daemons has lost eternal warrior. The 'Crusher however has been changed to cavalry, which means these things can move 12" and get hammer of wrath.

Nothing too fancy, there's the hellblade (AP3) and of course daemons of khorne, so get furious charge.

One Bloodcrusher can be upgraded to a Bloodhunter and take lesser or greater rewards.

Bloodcrushers can also take an instrument and banner; both of these were covered in the troop review. The banner can be upgraded to a banner of blood, which can be pretty scary as it gives 6+D6" assault range instead of the normal 2D6".

Summary

Bloodcrushers have been taken down a peg or two, well a lot in fact. The loss of 3+ armour save and T5 means they are boltgun fodder. FYI a unit of 10 x Tactical Marines rapid firing will fire 20 shots - hit 13 - wound 7 and the Bloodcrushers will fail 5 wounds - a unit of min Bloodcrushers cost 135 points and come in a unit of 3, that would leave a two Bloodcrushers left, one with a single wound. Due to their large size they are asking to be smacked about with large blasts i.e Vindicators, Manticores, Leman Russes etc not to forget they are krak missile bait too.

I think a unit of 5 might be worth it, though will cost 200 points +. They can absorb some fire power but will need supporting units i.e Fiends of Slaanesh who can move fast along them or maybe Daemonettes?

Rating: 4/10

Flamers of Tzeentch

Thanks to the past White Dwarf update, Flamers were an auto include in your army. Flamers had the answer to everything; anti armour - check; anti infantry; check; anti 2+ armour save: check - they could also threaten flyers if they rolled well. Then G.W went and screwed all the Daemons players who picked up boxes of Flamers last year and nerfed the Flamers hard, so hard they go the nerf bat turned that sum bitch sideways and sticked it straight up their candy asses!

Ok, I now have that out my system

Flamers then, their flamer template attack is now S4 AP4 and has a silly rule which if the enemy unit takes an unsaved wound, then the unit must take a toughness test, if this test is passed then the enemy unit GAINS feel no pain. This also stacks by the way. If the test is failed then the unit takes D3 wounds with no armour or cover saves.

Lets do a little go compare.com;

10 x Tactical Marines are attacked by a unit of 5 x Flamers, lets say the templates each cover 4 Marines and if positioned correctly you can get 4 Flamers to fire. The Flamers cause 16 hits - 8 wounds - 3 dead Marines. The Space Marines have a 33% chance of failure for the toughness test, so more than likely they will get feel no pain.

Lets take the above and use the old Flamers; 16 hits - 8 wounds - 8 dead Marines.

Before pointing out the obvious, lets do another go compare.com

10 x Fire Warriors/Eldar/Guardsmen are attacked by a unit of 5 x Flamers this time. The Flamers cause 16 hits - 11 wounds - 11 dead xeno scum/imperium dogs. The xenos/imperium have 50% chance of failure for toughness test, though the point is moot in this case as the unit is destroyed.

In case you haven't caught on, my point with Flamers is they are still very good at destroying xenos or anything not in a 3+ armour save or better. In fact they are even better than before as wound on a 3+ instead of a 4+, well against T3 anyway.

You can take a Pyrocaster who can take lesser and greater daemonic rewards, that's about all the options Flamers gets, though it matches their background so I am not complaining. I wouldn't take take any of the rewards by the way, not worth it for Flamers.

Summary

Tis true the Flamers got nerfed, but they deserved it, but going from one extreme to the other is very bad treatment by G.W of it's customers. The Flamers has not only lost the ability to tackle armour but also lost ranged fire power. Though as mentioned above, the Flamers are excellent xeno killers and anti horde.

Rating: 6.5/10

Beast of Nurgle

I have never used a Beast of Nurgle, though I have been told they have taken a points reduction, which is good. I also think they are an interesting unit...

Beast of Nurgle has the attention seeker rule, which basically lets the Beast charge in the opponent's assault phase! In addition it has the slime trail, which if an enemy unit charges it counts as a disorientated charge (no bonus attacks).

The Beast is of course a daemon of nurgle so it has the shrouding and slow and purposeful special rules along with defensive grenades, not that the defensive grenades matter (unless already locked in assault). Also has 4+ poison attacks (D6+1) and has it will not die.

Oh, as per title, the Beast of Nurgle is a beast, which means this guy is moving 12" and not caring about terrain (shrouding!) and re-rolling those assault distances thanks to fleet.

Summary

The Beast of Nurgle is an interesting unit thanks to it's counter charge ability, however an opponent isn't likely to charge your unit when the Beast is near, though it could be some distance away and the Beast may not make the random assault charge distance.

Maybe you could use the Beast with some Nurglings? Infiltrate the Nurglings and let them get assaulted, Beast then chases up. Of course this is situational. You could use the Beast with Plaguebearers, Plaguebearers get assaulted while on objective and Beast runs up to help them.

Rating: 6/10

Fiends of Slaanesh

I believe in this codex the Fiends have taken a slight nerf and got more expensive (cost 105 points for a unit of 3) and also lost an attack - can someone confirm? They are also only S4 now and used to be S6.

Naturally the Fiends are daemons of slaanesh so they get rending and also the 3" run gig. Keep in mind they are beasts so can move 12", have move through cover and fleet - insanely quick.

They have two new rules; disruptive song and soporific musk. The song gives -1 penalty to enemy psyker's leadership test when taking psychic tests if the Fiends are within 12". The musk gives a -5 initiative penalty to units which are successfully charged by Fiends, Fiends lol at nemesis halberds.

Summary

I can see Fiends working very well with Keeper of Secrets, Bloodthirster, Daemonettes and Bloodcrushers - everything can move up quickly while the more vulnerable units i.e Keeper and Crushers stay protected as they do not get shot at so much. Other than that they are just infantry and basic transport killers.

Rating: 6/10

http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2013/03/chaos-daemons-codex-review-fast-attack.html

Fast Attack


Rolling out with the Chaos Daemons fast attack today. If you missed the last part of the review you can find it here: Chaos Daemons codex review - elites

Flesh Hound of Khorne

I believe the Hounds got have a buff in the new Daemons codex and are now 2 wounds each. I think they may have also got a points change, but I might be wrong. For 80 points you get 5 choppy Daemon dogs who are Space Marine profile except with WS6, W2 and a 6+ armour save (don't forget invulnerable save).

Rules wise they are beasts, daemons of khorne (so furious charge) and also have scout.

Wargear wise they have collar of khorne which gives a 2+ bonus to deny the witch rolls, so they are denying psychic powers on a 4+.

Summary

The Hounds are a very cool choppy fast attack unit and can support slower moving units such as chariots, Bloodletters and chariots. They can also provide multiple fast targets when paired with Bloodcrushers.

Rating: 8/10

Screamers of Tzeentch

Like the Flamers, Screamers took the nerf bat hard and were brought all the way down to china town. While they did need reigning in, I feel they have gone from one extreme to the other.

Screamers have a slashing attack rule which works exactly the same as before and like Dark Eldar Reavers slash attack. The lamprey's bite is still S5 AP2 armourbane however you substitute ALL attacks for ONE lamprey's bite attack.

Here's a little mathammer how Screamers will work against Space Marines now:

6 x Screamers charge 10 x Tactical Marines. Marines overwatch with 20 shots - hit with 3 - wound with 2 - 1 failed invulnerable save.

Screamers get 6 x S4 hammer of wrath attacks - wound with 3 - 1 Marine dead - Screamers then gte 24 attacks - hit with 12 - wound with 6 - 2 dead Tactical Marines.

Marine are I4 so strike at the same time; they will get 10 attacks - hit with 7 - wound with 4 - 3 failed saves

Lets do the same but try lamprey's bite instead:

Screamers get 6 attacks (will they get charge attacks with lamprey's bite?) - hit with 3 - kill 2 Tactical Marines.

So combat with lamprey's bite is the same with normal attacks when fighting against Space Marines. Of course against xenos or anything not in power armour or better is going to be taking the pain. Also Screamers will still chew up vehicles or basic transports, though this is going to be a close call as they will only hit 4 times.

Summary

While Screamers have taken a beating with the nerf bat they are still not that bad; you just need to be more selective with them and they are no longer a point and click unit. What Screamers are best used for is tackling armour without transport ability and decking camping units or small weak troop numbers.

Consider Screamers in support of fast moving HQs, Bloodcrushers, Fiends and Daemonettes.

Rating: 7/10

Plague Drones of Nurgle

And the weird ass model award goes too....add in weird fluff too, something about mutating from a Beast of Nurgle or something.

These rot flies are 126 points for a unit of 3. You basically get a W3 A3 T5 Plague Bearer who is jet back cavalry.

Only wargear as standard is the plague sword, which isn't a bad weapon.

You can change one Plaguebearer to a Plaguebringer and take daemonic gifts from lesser and greater choices; some maybe useful others maybe not.

Instrument and icon are options, the upgraded banner isn't too bad to give the units 2+ poison attacks for a single turn.

Plague Drones do get the options of taking deaths heads, rot proboscis and venom sting. Death heads aren't too bad and useful for softening up a unit prior to assault, these are 12" S:User assault 4 poison 4+ ranged attacks. Rot proboscis gives 3+ poison attacks in close combat. Venom sting has instant death rule; put venom sting on the Plaguebringer and a etherblade (AP2) and you're going to kill stuff.

Summary

Like the previous two fast attack choices, the Plague Drones aren't a too bad unit and can make up some great support elements with elite units and slower moving units.

Rating: 7.5/10

Chaos Furies

Think of the Fury as a T3 Space Marine with WS3, they are jump infantry and you get 5 for 35 points.

Furies have the option be a daemon of a chaos god. I would probably take the daemon of slaanesh upgrade as gaining fleet, run extra D3 and rending for 2 points is great.

Summary

The Chaos Furies may seem a bit of a deal, but they are still pretty meh. Even with a daemon of slaanesh upgrade I don't expect them to do a lot, if you want them to lay the smack down you would seriously have to invest in them. Another issue is they are LD2 and it isn't hard to punch their faces in.

Best use to to sweep them down a flank and tie up small units which can hurt your bigger and more important units.

Rating: 5/10

Seekers of Slaanesh

I think the Seekers have taken a points reduction in the Chaos Daemons codex as you can get a unit of 5 for a bargain 60 points - please correct me if I am wrong about the points cost.

Seekers are cavalry and have the outflank and acute senses rules.

You can upgrade one Seeker to a Heartseeker and take lesser and greater daemonic rewards; lesser rewards might be useful.

Seekers get access to instrument and icon upgrades; you can upgrade the icon to a rapturous standard, though I am not sure if it is worth the points cost for a single turn.

Summary

While the Seekers are cheap enough, the more better fast attack units have multiple wounds and it's the single wound low toughness and not so good save which lets the Seekers down. The outflank and acute senses ability it nice, but standing there for a turn ready to take bullets to the face isn't good. If you could position them right, then they would be good for adding another threat and tackle those annoying units who are dicking with your big monsters etc.

Outflank the Seekers while your faster elites and fast attack units move up with supporting troops and Greater Daemons, Seekers arrive adding some 'on the doorstep' threat which must be dealt with or risk losing units holding back field objectives or guns which are blowing up your rushing Daemons.

Rating: 6.5/10

Hellflayer of Slaanesh

The Hellflayer is a 60 point 2 hull point Rhino which is a fast open topped chariot.

Hellflayer has two main rules; fleshshredder and soulscent. Fleshshredder does S4 rending hammer of wrath attacks (remember D6 as chariot) and inflicts D6 hits per hull point remaining. Soulscent gives a number of bonus attacks equal to the number of unsaved wounds caused by the hammer of wrath attacks - the Alluress riding the chariot has 4 attacks, so 5 charging and of course are rending. Time for a little bit of mathammer!

Lets presume the chariot has 2 hull points remaining and is charging a unit of 10 x Tactical Marines.

Chariot charges and gets 7-8 attacks from hammer of wrath (depends if you roll the dice separately or as 2D6), will wound 4 Marines if you're lucky you will get one rend and another Marine will snuff it - so 2 dead Marines and the Alluress gets a total of 7 attacks.

Alluress strikes first and hit 5 times - wound 2 times - one dead Marine.

7 x Tactical Marines strike back at the Alluress with 8 attacks - hit with 4 - wound with 3 - Alluress fails 2 and dies..

Summary

After a bit of mathammer and looking how weak these chariots are, I really cannot see them doing a fat lot. They are either lascannon/krak fodder or in combat the Alluress will probably die, though the chariot will remain and can carry on doing the hammer of wrath stuff.

Could go nicely in a chariot list, but it is so easy to take out and even in combat it is a bit meh. Use it for bashing weak troops like Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Guardsmen etc and nothing more. If you're lucky maybe tackle av10 rear vehicles too with those rends, maybe.

Rating: 4/10

Overall Summary

The fast attack section seems to start off strong and then go down hill.

Flesh Hounds are a nice cheap fast attack unit and they will compliment any Daemon army. For the points you really can't go wrong.

Screamers took a nerf but still are good at vehicle hunting - just go for vehicles without transport ability so then nothing can get out and shoot you in the face.

Despite gak models, the Plague Drones offer an alternative to Flesh Hounds. I personally would take the Drones over the Hounds as that toughness and poison attacks are nice.

Furies, Seekers and Hellflayers are the weaker parts of the fast attack.

Furies aren't too bad but the LD2 really hurts them, it's not like they are killing machines is it?

Seekers are very fragile, but outflanking them will keep them protected and make cheap distraction units.

Hellflayer is probably the worst fast attack unit. It is pretty weak and not that mega awesome sauce in close combat. Might be useful in a chariot list but do not expect wonders.

Heavy Support

http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2013/03/chaos-daemon-codex-review-heavy-support.html

Soul Grinder

The Soul Grinder is the heavy duty armour Daemons have access too and boy is it a beast; av13 front and side with av11 on the rear rocking with 4 hull points. This costs 135 points base, so gone up a little bit from the previous codex.

Standard wargear is the harvester cannon and iron claw; the harvester is basically a heavy 3 autocannon which has skyfire and the iron claw is like a dccw, but strangely has the unwieldy rule, which is pointless as this doesn't effect walkers.

You MUST upgrade the Soul Grinder to be a daemon of a chaos god; Khorne gives furious charge, so a bit meh but it is the cheapest option (costing 0 points); Tzeentch lets you re-roll 1's for failed invulnerable saves; Nurgle gives shrouding, defensive grenades and slow and purposeful while Slaanesh gives rending, fleet and additional run 3". If you wanted something cheap then go Khorne. I am not sure on the Tzeentch option, but it is cheap. Nurgle is very good for a camping Soul Grinder and also good for big guns never tire. Slaanesh isn't too bad if you're going a close combat Grinder and want fast moving unit saturation.

The Soul Grinder has several options it can take:

Baleful torrent is a S6 AP4 torrent flamer weapon, tasty.

Warp gaze is 24" S10 AP1 shot, hmmmm.

Phlegm bombardment is a cool S8 AP3 ordnance wad of puke.

Warp sword is a master crafted AP3 weapon which is the strength of the user, so S6 for the Grinder.

Out of the above I would take the phlegm without a doubt, sure it is expensive, but it mashes power armour up and trashes vehicles. Baleful torrent is ok, good for roasting xenos. Warp gaze and the sword are pretty meh, the points cost factored with the Grinder's average ballistic skill means gaze isn't worth it and the sword is just junk as the iron claw is better.

Summary

The Soul Grinder is a highly customisable unit and can fit into various armies with ease. It's even better now that it can start on the battlefield which means no deep strike risk from the large foot print.

You could take a Nurgle Grinder which can camp in cover (make sure 25% cover) and get a 2+ cover save and wreck vehicles and infantry with the harvester and phlegm.

The harvester, I don't think it is uber anti air, the Soul Grinder needs a 4+ to hit so will hit 1-2 shots on average. Against av11 flyer will have 50% chance to do something, not great odds, but since when is anti flyer stuff awesome?

Rating: 8/10

Skull Cannon of Khorne

Well, I can say this gets the award for most silly ass looking model in the codex. Even the Daemon Tina Turner Herald of Slaanesh doesn't look too bad compared to this.

The Skull Cannon is an av12 3 hull point vehicle costing 125 points. It's also open-topped and a chariot, so remember hammer of wrath (which is S7 for khorne) if you od ever charge it.

The cannon fires a S8 AP5 large blast, which sounds pretty poor, though any unit which takes a hit gets a marker placed by it. If any friendly daemon unit charges through terrain to assault the hit models then they suffer no penalty.

The Skull Cannon does have a funk rule called 'gorefeast', this rule can restore a single hull point on a 4+ if an unsaved wound is taken from hammer of wrath attacks.

Summary

The Skull Cannon is an interesting but confused unit; it wants to shoot but also wants to charge. It does offer some nice synergy and bizarrely I can see it working with Slaanesh units and a whole Khorne themed unit. I wouldn't say it is massively threatening though thanks to the lack of AP, but transport vehicles need to be aware.

Rating: 6/10

Burning Chariot of Tzeentch

The Burning Chariot is a 3 hull point Dark Eldar Venom in chariot form, it costs 100 points, which at first glance is pretty expensive, but when you consider the power it out puts it isn't too bad.

Riding the chariot is a Flamer who can use blue and pink fire of tzeentch. Both fires are pretty evil with pink fire been S5 AP3 torrent and blue fire 18" S9 AP2 heavy D3. Sounds good doesn't it? Well here's the pickle, both are heavy weapons which means if the Burning Chariot moves the Flamer can only snap fire, which isn't cool for D3 shots and it certainly isn't cool for a flamer weapon which you cannot snap fire!

The Flamer can take gifts, but these are pretty pointless as the Burning Chariot is pretty meh and the Flamer isn't that good at much.

Summary

Needs a FAQ!

Rating: 1/10

Seeker Cavalcade

The Cavalcade is an interesting unit as it is a squadron made up of chariots which can be different units/models.

You have the option of the Seeker Chariot which is a 2 hull point open-topped fast Rhino. It seems weak, but only costs 40 points a model. I guess you get what you pay for.

The other chariot option is an Exalted Seeker Chariot. This is the beefier version of the above and is a 4 hull point open-topped fast Rhino. This costs just under double points of the Seeker Chariot.

Both chariots have access to lesser and greater rewards, you may want to throw on a etherblade, but I wouldn't invest any points into the Seeker Chariot if I am honest; they are just too fragile.

Both chariots have a very cool rule called 'fleshshredder' this rules does S4 rending hammer of wrath of attacks (remember D6 hammer of wrath attacks for a chariot), but you get an extra D6 per hull point the chariot has remaining. So a Exalted Chariot could get 5D6 S4 rending hits if it has all 4 hull points remaining!

Summary

Both chariots only have a single thing going for them and it really a gimmick and that is the fleshshredder rule. It's not a bad rule and if these things hit they will seriously hurt, but the Seeker isn't mega tough and the Exalted is only a big stronger, it is not like av11 open-topped can absorb buckets of fire power.

Triple Exalted Chariots would cost a reasonable 225 points. You could cut the points cost down by taking 1-2 Seekers and then Exalted and throw the Exalted at the front to tank the shots. Remember they are daemons so they get the 5+ inv.

Rating: 7/10

Overall Summary

The Soul Grinder easily takes the crown of the heavy support section and is among the best units in the codex. I think the skyfire is a nice option but people are just going to overate it and won't see past the skyfire. Don't get me wrong it is good, but BS3 heavy 3 isn't awesome for anti flyer.

Skull Cannon needs to fit in with the army. This is more of a synergy unit. It will work in some armies and not in others.

Burning Chariot is junk. G.W FAQ this!

Seeker Cavalcade is a pretty cool unit, though can get expensive and is fragile. Be interesting to see these unit in play tests and also in an all chariot list or something.

Special Characters

Skarbrand

Skarbrand is the biggest and meanest Daemon in the codex. This dude is a pure close combat machine!

Skarband has the death incarnate warlord trait, his weapons have the instant death rule. Speaking of his weapons, one has the armourbane rule while the other have the fleshbane rule. Both are S:User and AP2.

Skarbrand has a ranged attack in the form of a S5 AP- template.

As Skarbrand is so pissed off all models within 12" (friend and foe) have the rage and hatred rules.

Summary

If you want a smashy HQ character then Skarbrand is your choice. Deep strike him in and the 3+ armour save should keep him safe, you can deep strike into cover if you like as monstrous creatures have the move through cover special rule and that ignores dangerous terrain - a 4+ cover is better than a 5+ inv .

Rating: 7/10

Kairos Fateweaver

Fateweaver, this two headed chicken has seriously changed. Firstly Fateweaver's profile got changed; now WS1, W5 I2 and has a 4+ inv save.

Warlord trait for this guy allows re-rolls on the warp storm table, handy.

Fateweaver's re-roll ability has changed massively, now can only re-roll once per turn, this is a single dice so no 2D6 etc.

Each of Fateweaver's heads knows four psychic powers and are each a mastery level 4 psyker, though you can only use one head at once. Both heads know all powers from the change discipline while the right generates powers from pyromancy and divination while the left hand generates powers from telepathy and biomancy. You can only use one head at once.

Summary

Fateweaver has dropped in points but is also very different and no longer acts as a Daemon army wide survival tool. You can use Fateweaver to buff your army with powers like prescience and be offensive with powers from pyromancy or be defensive with powers from biomancy.

Unless I haven't 'got it' yet, I am not sure what the point is in Fateweaver. He just seems offensive and defensive and only buffs are from divination and that's a lot of points just to give a few puffs.

Rating: 6.5/10

Ku'Gath Plaguefather

Ku'Gath is like a tooled up Great Unclean One, similar profile with a few added special rules.

Ku'Gath has the immortal commander warlord trait, this lets units within 12" re-roll failed daemonic instability tests, very handy.

Ku'Gath also has the slime trail special rule (enemy units count as making a disordered charge, so no bonus attacks), can regenerate a single wound to a single Nurgling base within 6" and can throw a 4+ poisoned AP3 large blast 24". Oh he is also a psyker as well, so taking the standard nurgle power means this guy is going to kill stuff in power armour.

Summary

For the points I would say Ku'Gath is pretty expensive. Sure the AP3 blast is sweet but giving Nurglings a wound back is just a gimmick. Ok this guy can destroy power armour with the AP3 blast and flamer template power, but really that's about it.

Deep strike this diseased fatty into the back field and pester camping units and small objective holding units. He will earn you line breaker at least

Rating: 5/10

Skulltaker

Right, Khorne's right hand choppy man is back for some ass kicking.

Skulltaker has the adamantium will special (locus gift), eternal warrior, 3+ armour save and a S:User AP3 choppy sword with the decapitating blow rule - wound of a 6+ is instant death.

Thanks to Skulltaker's setup he is excellent in challenges and luckily for him he has taken a page out of the CSM codex and must issue and accept challenges.

Fortunately Skulltaker can take a Juggernaut for 45 points, that's 145 points for a choppy fast moving HQ killer which is now T5 W3 and coming at you with 6 attacks on the charge at WS9!

Summary

I am really digging Skulltaker and think he is probably better than Skarbrand and a Bloodthirster - did I say that out loud? . Skulltaker can take some damage, get to the fight quickly and will destroy enemy characters in a heartbeat and only costs 145 points.

Take Skulltaker in a unit of Bloodcrushers, they can zoom up the field escorting Skulltaker and then Skulltaker can split off. If you want to do it cheaper then take Flesh Hounds, which will give some psychic defence for Skulltaker at least until he splits off.

Rating: 8.5/10

Karanak

Karanak is a nice little HQ for a reasonable points cost.

Karanak has a locus ability which gives rage to himself and his unit, very handy for something which has 4 attacks base. Add in hatred and you're re-rolling all misses on the first round of combat.

Naturally Karanak is a beast and also has scout so can easily join up with a unit of Flesh Hounds.

Karanak has a funky rule which allows to re-roll failed to hits and to wound models against an enemy character, excellent for warlord killing.

Lastly, Karanak has a collar of khorne (+2 to deny the witch rolls) but this collar also makes any enemy psyker units within 12" suffer a perils whenever a double is rolled.

Summary

Karanak is a cool customer but unfortunately takes up a valuable HQ slot and really should be an upgrade character like in the previous codex. I cannot see a blood seeking daemon hound leading an army to war.

You could use Karanak for warlord kills, though Karanak costs 120 points and this dedicated roll is expensive just to earn a single point.

Rating: 6/10

The Changeling

As cheap as the Changeling is I really cannot see the point in this model taking a HQ slot and also costing 75 points for a W2 5+ HQ is too much.

You get the locus which gives some Blue Horror tokens when you take unsaved wounds in combat, meh as the Blue Horrors are only S2 I1.

The Changeling is a mastery level 1 psyker and can generate power from the change table, these powers are pretty random and can give feel no pain to the enemy units, so meh.

The Changeling has a funky ability which works when in assault and in base to base contact, which the Changeling may switch weapon skill, strength, toughness, initiative and/or attacks to match chosen foe. It's a different gimmick but doesn't change armour save or wounds.

Summary

The Changeling is a gimmick unit with an ability which only works in close combat, which is the Changeling's weakness and will surely get face planted. Really a waste of a HQ slot.

Rating: 3/10

Blue Scribes

The Blue Scribes are like the Changeling, random, costly and pretty weak profile wise, though they are a T4 jetbike.

The Blue Scribes have gimmick rules; one they get a counter for each enemy psychic power cast, for each counter roll a D6 and on a 6+ a friendly psyker within 12" of the Blue Scribes gain a warp charge point.

The other rule is you chose a discipline from the rulebook and randomly roll (you cannot take primaris powers), strangely these powers do not use warp charge points and cast automatically.

Summary

Another expensive weak HQ choice. I can only see this being useful in a highly psychic army and working well against a heavy psyker army i.e Grey Knights. If not the Blue Scribes lose half of their gimmick purpose.

Rating: 3/10

Epidemius

Epidemius is like a Plaguebearer on steroids! This guy is WS5, S5, T5, W4, I4 A4 almost a Great Unclean One!

Epi has a plaguesword, which is pretty cool in its own right (4+ poison and 6+ to glance vehicles), but Epi's locus makes his weapons (and units) 2+ poison, swell!

Epidemius' main gimmick is the tally, which when Nurgle Daemons inflict the smackdown you get various bonuses i.e +1 strength, 4+ feel no pain etc. Though these benefits are only passed out to units within 6", so a very tight bubble. I might be wrong but I do believe Epidemius has been nerfed in this edition with the tally.

Summary

Epidemius is a nice gimmick HQ but the benefit bubble is too small and really should be double size. With the right list Epidemius may work.

You could deep strike Epidemius down and deep strike Great Unclean Ones and several Plaguebearers for support. Then have Beasts of Nurgle and Soul Grinders sitting back so you have half your army on the board etc. Beasts can run up (maybe Rot Fly things as well?) while Soul Grinders blast, then Plaguebearers and Fatty-Dirty Daemons benefit from the tally.

Rating: 6.5/10

The Masque

The Masque has taken a 25 point decrease in the new Chaos Daemon codex. Also had a buff as now S4 and I believe an extra attack or two as well. I think ballistic skill has changed as well.

In the previous codex the Masque had pavane of slaanesh and could fire it three times and three different units. The pavane allowed you to move enemy models D6". This has now long gone, but you get other fiddly abilities instead. The Masque has a rule called the eternal dance and at the start of each controlling player's shooting phases the Masques get to dance her clogs off. Here's what they do:

You can issue a -5 weapon skill on a enemy unit and the enemy unit can only move, run, charge and fall back D3"

Enemy unit suffers number of S1 AP2 hits equal to the models in the unit, no cover or armour saves allowed.

Enemy unit suffers -5 ballistic skill and cannot fire overwatch.

In addition to all the jiggery pokery the Masque can also re-roll failed invulnerable saves.

Summary

The Masque is a pretty cheap HQ which has some use for disrupting your opponent, unfortunately the Masque is only T3 and has a 5+ and re-rollable or not she is gonna go down.

Also note the Masque isn't a herald so will take up a single HQ slot, so no 2 for 1 herald deals.

Rating: 4/10

Overall Summary

Skarbrand is very killy there's no doubt about it, but I would probably take a Blood Thirster which costs (about) the same, also you can get greater rewards for the Blood Thirster which make it more survivable. Deep striking is the answer for Skarbrand as slow and you want to get him in the fight quickly.

Fateweaver is an expensive HQ choice and is reasonably durable. You can get some good buffs for your army or units with divination or make Fatey survivable with biomancy. I am not sure if worth the points tag. I think play testing is required.

Ku'Gath is a gimmick unit with funky powers. More killy than a Great Unclean One at range, but a lot more costly.

Skulltaker is a cool warlord/HQ slayer and costs a reasonable 145 points. This guy is strong competition against a Bloodthirster. Expect to see Skulltaker often in your area among Daemon players.

Karanak, like Skulltaker is pretty cool, but I don't think Karanak is worth the HQ slot and will lose out to Skulltaker or a Bloodthirster.

The Changeling and Blue Scribes are pretty meh, I would go as far to say Changeling is junk. Blue Scribes are too random to do anything with.

Epidemius is interesting and can work in a Nurgle mono army with the right units. Has got seriously nerfed from the last codex.

Masque is just a gimmick unit and has been mega nerfed. I wouldn't expect her to survive more than 5 minutes.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 13:24:05


Post by: labmouse42


Great write up.
IMHO the GUO has a few nice perks that you don't touch on. With 2 greater rewards and biomancy rolls, he can become nigh unkillable.
This is extremely useful as it gives the following perks.

* Your almost guaranteed to 'contest' at least one objective
* You can squat onto the relic and make it extremely hard for the enemy to pick up. Just stay 1" from it, and noone else can get there to pick it up.
* If hes your warlord, it makes it very difficult to get 'slay the warlord' from you.
* You can use him to almost always get 'linebreaker'

The first two traits can be extremely useful to win the primary mission. Some primaries won't matter, like when there are 6 objectives.
The second two traits are extremely useful if the primaries are tied. I find this is often the case in competitive games, and the game goes down to 'first blood', 'linebreaker' and 'slay the warlord'


Edit :
I also think your selling the heralds short. One of their best perks is the ability to act as force multipliers. For example, a tzeentch herald that's a level 2 psyker with a foci can vastly improve the dakka of a squad of horrors. It can add the following
* Increase damage output from 4d6 to 6d6 (by the herald casting flickering fire as well)
* Double hits by casting 'prescience' on the squad
* Increase STR of hits to 6.

Slaanesh heralds can take the foci that lets the re-roll 'to hits' in assault. This increases the average number of hits from 2/3 to 8/9. Thats a very strong perk.
Khorne heralds can give bloodletters 3 attacks on the charge
Nurgle heralds can give FNP to the squad, etc etc etc

Each of those are significant force multipliers that make the unit as a whole better.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 13:27:16


Post by: Xeriapt


Pretty sure if 20 horrors are firing they fire 4d6 rather than 3d6. In your overall summary you listed their shots as str 4 also.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 15:09:26


Post by: mercer


labmouse42 wrote:Great write up.
IMHO the GUO has a few nice perks that you don't touch on. With 2 greater rewards and biomancy rolls, he can become nigh unkillable.
This is extremely useful as it gives the following perks.

* Your almost guaranteed to 'contest' at least one objective
* You can squat onto the relic and make it extremely hard for the enemy to pick up. Just stay 1" from it, and noone else can get there to pick it up.
* If hes your warlord, it makes it very difficult to get 'slay the warlord' from you.
* You can use him to almost always get 'linebreaker'

The first two traits can be extremely useful to win the primary mission. Some primaries won't matter, like when there are 6 objectives.
The second two traits are extremely useful if the primaries are tied. I find this is often the case in competitive games, and the game goes down to 'first blood', 'linebreaker' and 'slay the warlord'


Edit :
I also think your selling the heralds short. One of their best perks is the ability to act as force multipliers. For example, a tzeentch herald that's a level 2 psyker with a foci can vastly improve the dakka of a squad of horrors. It can add the following
* Increase damage output from 4d6 to 6d6 (by the herald casting flickering fire as well)
* Double hits by casting 'prescience' on the squad
* Increase STR of hits to 6.

Slaanesh heralds can take the foci that lets the re-roll 'to hits' in assault. This increases the average number of hits from 2/3 to 8/9. Thats a very strong perk.
Khorne heralds can give bloodletters 3 attacks on the charge
Nurgle heralds can give FNP to the squad, etc etc etc

Each of those are significant force multipliers that make the unit as a whole better.


Good points on the GuO. I didn't mention them as I thought those things would have been obvious, especially considering I mentioned about dropping in in the opponent's face. Still good points though

I mentioned those things about the HoT

Mentioned all those things about the Heralds maybe I don't appreciate them as much as others maybe?

Glad you enjoyed the write up though and some great input from yourself.

Xeriapt wrote:Pretty sure if 20 horrors are firing they fire 4d6 rather than 3d6. In your overall summary you listed their shots as str 4 also.


That's for their funky banner


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 15:11:37


Post by: gorgon


 mercer wrote:
I


The Daemonettes aren't too bad, though I still worry about their lower toughness and invulnerable save and I can see them just not making combat or when they do they won't have enough numbers.

For example 10 Daemonettes charge 10 Tactical Marines. The Daemonettes strike first 30 attacks - hit with 20 - wound with 7 (one rend) - 2 dead Tacticals plus the rend = 3 dead Tactical Marines.

The Tacticals strike back with 9 attacks (Sgt) - hit with 5 - wound with 3 - 2 dead Daemonettes.

I think next turn the combat maybe a draw, if not Daemonettes may pull a victory.

Rating: 6.5/10


So what you're saying is that if you take 90 pts of Daemonettes versus 150 pts of SM, then reduce the Daemonettes' combat capacity due to faulty math, they still win the combat?



Little higher than 6.5, methinks.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 15:17:31


Post by: Xeriapt


 mercer wrote:


That's for their funky banner


I would have thought this was referring to their PSA not the banner.

 mercer wrote:

Pink Horror is an interesting unit and fairly costs. Can be unreliable with the primaris psychic power (3D6 assault S4 if using 20 Horrors) and the general Tzeentch powers aren't mega reliable either. I would say the Pink Horrors are just meh and that's all they will ever be. The exalted locus from a Herald maybe useful, though adds up in points just to get a +1 strength bonus.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 15:24:29


Post by: airmang


One thing to note is that most of the psykers don't have to take any powers from their "mark". So a LOC could take nothing but Divination powers. Daemon Princes can take powers from their "mark", Biomancy, Telepathy, and Pyromancy. This makes LOC's and Princes very nice as they can get the bonuses for being Tzeentch, but not have to choose any of the mediocre powers from the Change list.

And the Staff of Change on a LOC makes them stronger than a Bloodthirster (with a nice "Tesla" like explosion).


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 16:02:04


Post by: labmouse42


 gorgon wrote:
 mercer wrote:
I


The Daemonettes aren't too bad, though I still worry about their lower toughness and invulnerable save and I can see them just not making combat or when they do they won't have enough numbers.

For example 10 Daemonettes charge 10 Tactical Marines. The Daemonettes strike first 30 attacks - hit with 20 - wound with 7 (one rend) - 2 dead Tacticals plus the rend = 3 dead Tactical Marines.

The Tacticals strike back with 9 attacks (Sgt) - hit with 5 - wound with 3 - 2 dead Daemonettes.

I think next turn the combat maybe a draw, if not Daemonettes may pull a victory.

Rating: 6.5/10


So what you're saying is that if you take 90 pts of Daemonettes versus 150 pts of SM, then reduce the Daemonettes' combat capacity due to faulty math, they still win the combat?



Little higher than 6.5, methinks.
Yea the math is off.

10 daemonettes get 31 attacks on the charge. (including the Alluress)
31 * .66667 (to hit) * .16667 (rends) = .34444 wounds +
31 * .66667 (to hit) * .16667 (wounds) * .33333 (failed save) = 1.148 wounds = 4.59 dead MEQ round 1.

Your remaining MEQ strike back and will kill 1.3339 daemonettes
On round 2, the daemonettes will kill another 2.51 MEQ. The MEQ will kill another .666 daemonettes.
On round 3, the daemonettes will kill another 2.22 MEQ. The MEQ will kill another .4444 daemonettes
On round 4, the daemonettes will kill the last MEQ. A total of 2-3 daemonettes will have died total.

That is without any buffs, heralds, banners, etc. All those dramatically change the equasion. Simply put, you don't want to get in assault with daemons.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 16:57:50


Post by: Hulksmash


I disagree with a lot of the ratings.

The DP gives you the option to have a lvl 3 MC start on the table with Biomancy and be able to redeploy. While the GOU is excellent his placement could be problematic or he has to deepstrike in which case you're not going to be buffed on the turn you arrive.

Heralds of Tzeentch and Slaanesh are seriously undersold in their abilities to enhance units. The Tzeentch heralds act as psychic batteries to enhance your whole force while giving you a brick with a ridiculous number of St6. shots. Something able to also drop light flyers. The Slaanesh herald on a steed with a greater gift with steeds equals the ability to erase blob squads.

And your completely discounting the Aether Blade on Heralds of Slaanesh. 5-6 (depending on if you mount it on a steed) WS7 St5 I6 AP2 attacks that re-roll to hit for 95-110pts is pretty damn huge.

Personally this isn't a book you can break down by unit for a review. Much like the other 6th edition codexes (probably more so) this is a book to take as a whole. Interactions with other units is where the power in this book is. Not single units.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 17:07:55


Post by: mercer


 gorgon wrote:
 mercer wrote:
I


The Daemonettes aren't too bad, though I still worry about their lower toughness and invulnerable save and I can see them just not making combat or when they do they won't have enough numbers.

For example 10 Daemonettes charge 10 Tactical Marines. The Daemonettes strike first 30 attacks - hit with 20 - wound with 7 (one rend) - 2 dead Tacticals plus the rend = 3 dead Tactical Marines.

The Tacticals strike back with 9 attacks (Sgt) - hit with 5 - wound with 3 - 2 dead Daemonettes.

I think next turn the combat maybe a draw, if not Daemonettes may pull a victory.

Rating: 6.5/10


So what you're saying is that if you take 90 pts of Daemonettes versus 150 pts of SM, then reduce the Daemonettes' combat capacity due to faulty math, they still win the combat?



Little higher than 6.5, methinks.


How is my maths faulty? The Daemonettes get 2 attacks base +1 fo charging which is 3 each and a total of 30 attacks. They will hit with 20 and then wound with 6.6, so round up to 7.

Is there something I missed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xeriapt wrote:
 mercer wrote:


That's for their funky banner


I would have thought this was referring to their PSA not the banner.

 mercer wrote:

Pink Horror is an interesting unit and fairly costs. Can be unreliable with the primaris psychic power (3D6 assault S4 if using 20 Horrors) and the general Tzeentch powers aren't mega reliable either. I would say the Pink Horrors are just meh and that's all they will ever be. The exalted locus from a Herald maybe useful, though adds up in points just to get a +1 strength bonus.


I apologise, I thought I had editted that, well I have now - thanks for spotting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
airmang wrote:One thing to note is that most of the psykers don't have to take any powers from their "mark". So a LOC could take nothing but Divination powers. Daemon Princes can take powers from their "mark", Biomancy, Telepathy, and Pyromancy. This makes LOC's and Princes very nice as they can get the bonuses for being Tzeentch, but not have to choose any of the mediocre powers from the Change list.

And the Staff of Change on a LOC makes them stronger than a Bloodthirster (with a nice "Tesla" like explosion).


Pretty sure I mentioned about biomancy for GuO; T10? oh yes - that's not meant to sound like a dick btw, I was having a lol at T10

labmouse42 wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 mercer wrote:
I


The Daemonettes aren't too bad, though I still worry about their lower toughness and invulnerable save and I can see them just not making combat or when they do they won't have enough numbers.

For example 10 Daemonettes charge 10 Tactical Marines. The Daemonettes strike first 30 attacks - hit with 20 - wound with 7 (one rend) - 2 dead Tacticals plus the rend = 3 dead Tactical Marines.

The Tacticals strike back with 9 attacks (Sgt) - hit with 5 - wound with 3 - 2 dead Daemonettes.

I think next turn the combat maybe a draw, if not Daemonettes may pull a victory.

Rating: 6.5/10


So what you're saying is that if you take 90 pts of Daemonettes versus 150 pts of SM, then reduce the Daemonettes' combat capacity due to faulty math, they still win the combat?



Little higher than 6.5, methinks.
Yea the math is off.

10 daemonettes get 31 attacks on the charge. (including the Alluress)
31 * .66667 (to hit) * .16667 (rends) = .34444 wounds +
31 * .66667 (to hit) * .16667 (wounds) * .33333 (failed save) = 1.148 wounds = 4.59 dead MEQ round 1.

Your remaining MEQ strike back and will kill 1.3339 daemonettes
On round 2, the daemonettes will kill another 2.51 MEQ. The MEQ will kill another .666 daemonettes.
On round 3, the daemonettes will kill another 2.22 MEQ. The MEQ will kill another .4444 daemonettes
On round 4, the daemonettes will kill the last MEQ. A total of 2-3 daemonettes will have died total.

That is without any buffs, heralds, banners, etc. All those dramatically change the equasion. Simply put, you don't want to get in assault with daemons.


I never included an Alluress that's why only 30 attacks.

I am not also following your maths



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hulksmash wrote:
I disagree with a lot of the ratings.

The DP gives you the option to have a lvl 3 MC start on the table with Biomancy and be able to redeploy. While the GOU is excellent his placement could be problematic or he has to deepstrike in which case you're not going to be buffed on the turn you arrive.

Heralds of Tzeentch and Slaanesh are seriously undersold in their abilities to enhance units. The Tzeentch heralds act as psychic batteries to enhance your whole force while giving you a brick with a ridiculous number of St6. shots. Something able to also drop light flyers. The Slaanesh herald on a steed with a greater gift with steeds equals the ability to erase blob squads.

And your completely discounting the Aether Blade on Heralds of Slaanesh. 5-6 (depending on if you mount it on a steed) WS7 St5 I6 AP2 attacks that re-roll to hit for 95-110pts is pretty damn huge.

Personally this isn't a book you can break down by unit for a review. Much like the other 6th edition codexes (probably more so) this is a book to take as a whole. Interactions with other units is where the power in this book is. Not single units.


Very true about the Daemon Prince, but that's like 220 points before anything else. You need to wings to get it into combat boosting up the points even more. What exactly is the Prince going to do besides close combat? Personally I'd rather take the GuO for cheaper and deep strike in.

I am pretty sure I mentioned the S6 shots..why do you mean psychic batteries?

I also mentioned the etherblade on the Herald of Slaanesh along with the loci for no refusing of challenges.

And yes, the book works as whole, however the review gains a more understanding of units and you can see how they work together.



Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 17:24:12


Post by: Puscifer


If it wasn't for the Storm table, I'd be tempted to use units from other gods. I just can't keep to a single god.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 17:24:19


Post by: xole


 mercer wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 mercer wrote:
I


The Daemonettes aren't too bad, though I still worry about their lower toughness and invulnerable save and I can see them just not making combat or when they do they won't have enough numbers.

For example 10 Daemonettes charge 10 Tactical Marines. The Daemonettes strike first 30 attacks - hit with 20 - wound with 7 (one rend) - 2 dead Tacticals plus the rend = 3 dead Tactical Marines.

The Tacticals strike back with 9 attacks (Sgt) - hit with 5 - wound with 3 - 2 dead Daemonettes.

I think next turn the combat maybe a draw, if not Daemonettes may pull a victory.

Rating: 6.5/10


So what you're saying is that if you take 90 pts of Daemonettes versus 150 pts of SM, then reduce the Daemonettes' combat capacity due to faulty math, they still win the combat?



Little higher than 6.5, methinks.


How is my maths faulty? The Daemonettes get 2 attacks base +1 fo charging which is 3 each and a total of 30 attacks. They will hit with 20 and then wound with 6.6, so round up to 7.

Is there something I missed?


Yes. They wound on 5s and 6s against marines. Half of their wounds(3.4ish) will be rends. Not one. At 95 points(I like the alluress) they will murder everything(that doesn't shoot them first)


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 17:35:13


Post by: labmouse42


 mercer wrote:
I never included an Alluress that's why only 30 attacks.

I am not also following your maths
Happy to help out I talk a lot about mathhammer on my blog , and sometimes I forget that people don't always follow along.

So you can't just say 'Well, unit X got 20 hits, and they wound on a 5, so thats 3 wounds'. Your shorting the unit. Therefore the best solution to determine the amount of wounds a unit delivers per turn is to use the following forumla.
Attacks * (Chance to HIt) * (Chance to Wound) * (Failed Save) * (Failed FNP)
The best way to do this is to open up your friendly neighborhood excel program and plug in the values.

Now, for the rending attacks were going to have some hits that give an armor save and some that don't. We know that on a 'to wound' roll of a 6, we don't give saves, so we will extract .166667 wounds at 'rending' without a save. The remaining wounds will give a save. Since the daemonettes are STR 3, they happen to have half the wounds rend and half of them not rend.
Number of Attacks = 31
Chance to hit = .66667
Chance to wound = .166667
Chance of failed save= 100% (or 1)
So our end math for the rending hits is
31 * .6667 * .16667 * 1 = 3.44444

Now you add your rending wounds to your non-rending wounds, and that is your total amount of wounds done by the daemonette in one round.
The problem is those are averages. As we all know, your unit might vastly under or overperform. Last weekend I had a DP make ten 3+ saves in a row. My GK opponent made nine 4+ saves in a row for his vehicles. Math will only take you so far, but it does give you a decent judge on what units can hurt what.

The bottom line is "TACs suck in assault" Their quite embarassingly bad at it. To get a better representation, you sould put the daemonettes vs something like GK.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 17:50:20


Post by: calypso2ts


@labmouse - Lab's calculations are correct and that is the way I do it for Expect Value as well.

I do not really like the Expected Value formulation through for wounds. I think a better measure is to look at the probability distribution of the output determine the 90% confidence for a specified number of expected MEQ deaths.

Edit: @ Mercer
Your math took the number of total wounds (1/3 of 20) and then assumed they had a 1 in 6 chance to be a rend. In actuality, this is a conditional probability. Given you have caused a wound - which requires a 5 or 6, what is the expected number of 6's. Since there are 7 wounds and the chance to roll a 5 or 6 is equal, half of those are expected to be rends.

@Hulksmash - I completely agree with your assessment on the ratings. I disagree with a number of them since they seem to only consider the raw damage output of a particular unit. For example, I would not take a Lord of Change to throw down a ton of shooting - he should be there to move forward with your troops and provide divination buffs.

Check the FAQ though for Deep Striking - you can choose the order of start of turn effects now. That means you can Deep Strike a unit and then case psychic powers on/with the unit.

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)

A: They do occursimultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what orderthese things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook



Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 19:57:23


Post by: Elric Greywolf


BS was added to all the models because the sergeants can take Lesser and Greater Rewards, which include shooting attacks as possibilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 labmouse42 wrote:
Happy to help out I talk a lot about mathhammer on my blog , and sometimes I forget that people don't always follow along.


You forgot to include OW in your calculations, which would effect the overall result. I always calculate OW when figuring out how my units would do on the charge.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 20:23:36


Post by: madival


You looked at everything I already knew and didn't tell me anything about the ones I really wanted to see. How are the elites, fast attack, and heavy support slots look?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 23:12:43


Post by: Babel_Triumphant


I think bloodletters are slightly underrated. Sure, they're fragile. But not more fragile than daemonettes. If you run their numbers for close combat, they look pretty brutal. 10 bloodletters vs those same 10 TACs will wipe out ~9 of them in the first round of combat. The only real problem is that bloodletters lack the speed advantage of daemonettes, but this can be made up for by the banner.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/07 23:21:32


Post by: timetowaste85


Your Keeper of Secrets cost is too high: need to lower it by 20.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 01:51:13


Post by: calypso2ts


Finally got to go through with a bit more fine toothed comb on the codex. I think a Keeper of Secrets cost is actually just right. For the same cost I used to run her (w/ Musk) I can get a Mastery 3 Psyker rolling on Telepathy with 5 wounds, a 5++ T6 who is a beast in CC.

That sounds pretty awesome to me - her uses change slightly with the powers she rolls, but that is just a beginning. Invisibility makes her terrible for opponents, Endurance makes her nearly as obnoxious.

This book is about synergy - and if anyone has not played against invisibility, let you opponent pick it off telepathy next time and you will see how brutal it can be.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 06:21:28


Post by: Siphen


The fast attack and heavy support are where the codex really becomes scary, imo. Seekers and Flesh Hounds are absolutely insane...(I honestly think Seekers are downright broken).

Flesh Hounds are T4, 2 wound beasts with scout, fleet, furious charge, 2 attacks base, and WS 5 for a mere 16 points. They even have a 4+ deny the witch.

Seekers are significantly better (not that Flesh Hounds are bad). They're only 12 points per model. They run 6" + d6" with fleet and ignore terrain, so they'll be charging on turn 2 no matter where you are. 3 attacks base with rending, WS 5, Initiative 5...

To put that in perspective....20 Seekers + A Slaanesh Herald with a Seeker and Exalted Locus (330 points) will kill 17 MEQ on the charge. Imagine 3 of those units across the table. Under 1000 points of your army...63 bodies all with an invul save. You have ONE turn to shoot them due to their speed. They will easily wipe out any unit they attack.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 07:18:13


Post by: Puscifer


Only downside with that many seekers is the monetary cost of 60 seekers.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 12:20:41


Post by: Green is Best!


Siphen wrote:
The fast attack and heavy support are where the codex really becomes scary, imo. Seekers and Flesh Hounds are absolutely insane...(I honestly think Seekers are downright broken).


What is the consensus on Furies? Especially furies with the mark of slaanesh?

8 point models with fleet (that they do not lose after jumping 12") and rending. A squad of 20 comes in at 160 points. Very cheap. I think they have 2 attacks base. So 60 rending attacks on the charge?

While I still think flesh hounds are the best FA of the codex right now, I have yet to test any of them out yet.

Just my two cents.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 13:03:53


Post by: Xeriapt


 Green is Best! wrote:
Siphen wrote:
The fast attack and heavy support are where the codex really becomes scary, imo. Seekers and Flesh Hounds are absolutely insane...(I honestly think Seekers are downright broken).


What is the consensus on Furies? Especially furies with the mark of slaanesh?

8 point models with fleet (that they do not lose after jumping 12") and rending. A squad of 20 comes in at 160 points. Very cheap. I think they have 2 attacks base. So 60 rending attacks on the charge?

While I still think flesh hounds are the best FA of the codex right now, I have yet to test any of them out yet.

Just my two cents.


They might be worth it if they had some decent models :p.

Indeed they are cheap and the slaanesh upgrade I think is the most useful for them. Their main downfall seems to be ludicrously low ld meaning they will get hit hard from instability if they cant deal lots of damage when they charge.
Massive improvement from previous codex for sure, I would say they are certainly worth considering.

The main competition for a fast attack slot for slaanesh furies would be seekers.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 13:16:20


Post by: Green is Best!


I plan on using gargoyles with leftover daemonette heads and claws I have lying around. I want to see how that turns out before I commit to it though.

And, as for the low LD2, I agree. But, I see them being used in conjunction with flesh hounds to get in someone's face early while the rest of the army catches up.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 13:34:36


Post by: labmouse42


Siphen wrote:
The fast attack and heavy support are where the codex really becomes scary, imo. Seekers and Flesh Hounds are absolutely insane...(I honestly think Seekers are downright broken).
I agree with this statement.

The khorne dogs are less dangerous. How scared are you of BA assault marines? That's roughly how dangerous khorne dogs are. Two STR 4 attacks each is not the hotness that will demolish most squads. What make khorne dogs really good is they act as a great transport for a khorne herald on a jugg. That's a beatstick that will carry the dogs.

The dogs are also good because they can offer that turn 2 assault, and they are slightly more durable than the seekers. This means your more likely to get 'stuck in' if you have khorne dogs with your seekers.

Siphen wrote:
Seekers are significantly better (not that Flesh Hounds are bad). They're only 12 points per model. They run 6" + d6" with fleet and ignore terrain, so they'll be charging on turn 2 no matter where you are. 3 attacks base with rending, WS 5, Initiative 5...
Seekers still take wounds 1/6 of the time they are in terrain. You won't cut through difficult terrain unless you don't have another option, especially because the loci of beguilement is so good.

You are correct that seekers will destroy infantry they run across. If they can get a good charge off on blob guard, they will remove an entire blob in a round. (though they overwatch may be a real problem)

Seekers will also wreck any vehicles with an AV 10 on the rear. The sheer number of rending attacks will crush enemy vehicles. However they will bounce off land raiders -- which I expect to see more of in the near future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Green is Best! wrote:
While I still think flesh hounds are the best FA of the codex right now, .
As mentioned earlier, Khorne dogs I think work best in conjuntion with seekers.

I plan on running the following. This may change after some test games.
HQ
Slaanesh Herald w/Seeker, Lesser Gift, Locus of Beguilement
Karanak
Khrone Herlad w/Jugg, Lesser Gift, Greater Gift, Locus of Fury
Tzeentch Herald w/lvl 2 psyker, Locus of Conjuration, Disk

Troops
20 Daemonettes w/Aluress, Rapturous Standard
20 Daemonettes w/Aluress, Rapturous Standard
20 Bloodletters w/Readper, Banner of Blood
20 Horrors

Fast Attack
20 Seekers w/HeartSeeker
20 Khorne Dogs


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 13:57:12


Post by: Puscifer


How much is that force in points Labmouse?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 14:00:53


Post by: mercer


 labmouse42 wrote:
 mercer wrote:
I never included an Alluress that's why only 30 attacks.

I am not also following your maths
Happy to help out I talk a lot about mathhammer on my blog , and sometimes I forget that people don't always follow along.

So you can't just say 'Well, unit X got 20 hits, and they wound on a 5, so thats 3 wounds'. Your shorting the unit. Therefore the best solution to determine the amount of wounds a unit delivers per turn is to use the following forumla.
Attacks * (Chance to HIt) * (Chance to Wound) * (Failed Save) * (Failed FNP)
The best way to do this is to open up your friendly neighborhood excel program and plug in the values.

Now, for the rending attacks were going to have some hits that give an armor save and some that don't. We know that on a 'to wound' roll of a 6, we don't give saves, so we will extract .166667 wounds at 'rending' without a save. The remaining wounds will give a save. Since the daemonettes are STR 3, they happen to have half the wounds rend and half of them not rend.
Number of Attacks = 31
Chance to hit = .66667
Chance to wound = .166667
Chance of failed save= 100% (or 1)
So our end math for the rending hits is
31 * .6667 * .16667 * 1 = 3.44444

Now you add your rending wounds to your non-rending wounds, and that is your total amount of wounds done by the daemonette in one round.
The problem is those are averages. As we all know, your unit might vastly under or overperform. Last weekend I had a DP make ten 3+ saves in a row. My GK opponent made nine 4+ saves in a row for his vehicles. Math will only take you so far, but it does give you a decent judge on what units can hurt what.

The bottom line is "TACs suck in assault" Their quite embarassingly bad at it. To get a better representation, you sould put the daemonettes vs something like GK.


I see how you have done it now. You've done it like on chance sort of thing will I have done mine on average.

Reason I did Tacticals is because they are the most common Marine, not everyone uses Grey Knights. I don't think Grey Knights would make a difference, well unless they are chargng, but that is not the case.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 14:01:04


Post by: labmouse42


Sorry 1850. I have adepticon on my mind, and make every list with that point value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 mercer wrote:
Reason I did Tacticals is because they are the most common Marine, not everyone uses Grey Knights. I don't think Grey Knights would make a difference, well unless they are chargng, but that is not the case.
You know, I've not been seeing many marines lately. I occasionally still see the SW drop pod army, but they are less common.

Helldrakes have changed the meta so much that I'm just not seeing many foot based MEQ armies. Those MEQ armies I do see are DA land raider/bolter banners armies.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 14:09:59


Post by: mercer


Added elites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 labmouse42 wrote:
You know, I've not been seeing many marines lately. I occasionally still see the SW drop pod army, but they are less common.

Helldrakes have changed the meta so much that I'm just not seeing many foot based MEQ armies. Those MEQ armies I do see are DA land raider/bolter banners armies.


Meh, not sure why people worry about a single unit in just one army. I know it is badass, but not like a huge changer. I haven't seen any Cruader-Banner armies yet, though I have seen a Banner-Ravenwing - that gak is deadly!


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 14:30:28


Post by: Green is Best!


 mercer wrote:
Added elites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 labmouse42 wrote:
You know, I've not been seeing many marines lately. I occasionally still see the SW drop pod army, but they are less common.

Helldrakes have changed the meta so much that I'm just not seeing many foot based MEQ armies. Those MEQ armies I do see are DA land raider/bolter banners armies.


Meh, not sure why people worry about a single unit in just one army. I know it is badass, but not like a huge changer. I haven't seen any Cruader-Banner armies yet, though I have seen a Banner-Ravenwing - that gak is deadly!


I went up against one that had 30+ bikes and the banner that made all bolters salvo 2/4. That is 4 twin-linked shots per bike. It was pretty mean. It did not help that I rolled snake eyes for my helldrakes on turn 2 reserves. Was a very painful game.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 15:11:42


Post by: labmouse42


 mercer wrote:
Meh, not sure why people worry about a single unit in just one army. I know it is badass, but not like a huge changer. I haven't seen any Cruader-Banner armies yet, though I have seen a Banner-Ravenwing - that gak is deadly!
I've faced those. They are a lot less deadly when you have helldrakes.

I think they are a hard counter to daemons, however. That many salvo-4 TL bolter shots will shred large blocks of T3.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 16:06:33


Post by: Green is Best!


 labmouse42 wrote:

I think they are a hard counter to daemons, however. That many salvo-4 TL bolter shots will shred large blocks of T3.


But, you can at least use the scout move of your flesh hounds to counter their scout move. Assuming a standard 24" of separation between forces, his bikes scout 12", you scout forward 11" and turn your dogs sideways. His next turn, his bikes CANNOT move forward (assuming you have a large block of dogs). They can just sit there and shoot at the dogs. They cannot assault either. Any surviving puppies would then get to assault him.

This would only be a 1 turn delaying tactic (and would cost you about 320 points), but it is something that can be done to keep your vehicles alive from those scouting attack bikes with multi-melta.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 16:16:44


Post by: mercer


Green is Best! wrote:
 mercer wrote:
Added elites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 labmouse42 wrote:
You know, I've not been seeing many marines lately. I occasionally still see the SW drop pod army, but they are less common.

Helldrakes have changed the meta so much that I'm just not seeing many foot based MEQ armies. Those MEQ armies I do see are DA land raider/bolter banners armies.


Meh, not sure why people worry about a single unit in just one army. I know it is badass, but not like a huge changer. I haven't seen any Cruader-Banner armies yet, though I have seen a Banner-Ravenwing - that gak is deadly!


I went up against one that had 30+ bikes and the banner that made all bolters salvo 2/4. That is 4 twin-linked shots per bike. It was pretty mean. It did not help that I rolled snake eyes for my helldrakes on turn 2 reserves. Was a very painful game.


Dude at a club goes to plays a list like that. I also wrote one recently, not sure if he decided to stick the banner in after seeing mine or not, I know he didn't have it before. Always fancied a bike army.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 17:52:17


Post by: labmouse42


I think that the bolter/landraider is going to be the new standard MEQ build for a while. As long as 'helldrake does as helldrake pleases' anyway. This is simply because the helldrakes are just so darn effective at destroying MEQ. Anything not in a box, and preferably a hard to crack box, needs to have a 2+ or it will fry.

The problem is that the bolter land raiders are a hard counter to the daemon spam. Each land raider will be killing ~12 daemonettes per turn. Spread that out over three land raiders and you will have some problems. The biggest problem, of course, is actually hurting them. What do daemons have that can hurt the land raiders. Sure you can rush your seekers/khonre dogs up there. What do you do to em once your there?

You could run tons of plague bearers. That same land raider will be killing 2.39 plague bearers per turn. If they have a FNP herald with them, they will be losing 1.59 plague bearers a turn. Three land raiders could shoot everything for 6 rounds into one squad of plague bearers and would wipe them out by turn 6. The problem, of course, is that by going with a plague bearer build your making yourself weak to other builds.

40k is a lot more of rock/sissor/paper/lizard/spock game today than it was in 5th edition.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 17:55:33


Post by: Puscifer


Interesting write up on the Beasts.

I've tested them in big units (5+) and the have done pretty well. The fact they are good charge blockers is a total bonus, but the fact you are rolling 5d6+5 for poisoned attacks is pretty good when that averages out at roughly 30 attacks on the charge with 20 wounds per unit.

Providing moving cover for the rest of the army is always welcomed too.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 18:06:31


Post by: D6Damager


 labmouse42 wrote:
The problem is that the bolter land raiders are a hard counter to the daemon spam. Each land raider will be killing ~12 daemonettes per turn. Spread that out over three land raiders and you will have some problems. The biggest problem, of course, is actually hurting them. What do daemons have that can hurt the land raiders. Sure you can rush your seekers/khonre dogs up there. What do you do to em once your there?

.


Screamers and plague drones are fast enough to hit a land raider. Screamers still have armourbane and plague drones only need to roll 4 6's. Both units are tough and can be made tougher through grimoire use. FMCs still have smash. A soulgrinder can take heavy bolter shots all day and fire away with tongue backed up with prescience. You can even deep strike an SG off a plague drones unit to get the best positioning and alpha strike.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 18:28:23


Post by: labmouse42


Screamers have 1 attack each if they want to use lamprey bite.
Being STR 5, they need to roll at least a 9 to glance, and a 10 to penetrate on 2d6.
If the land raider moved, they each screamer has a 18% of stripping a hull point off, and a 11% of penetrating.
Remember the DA land raiders have a 4+ invlun save from their stupid force field, and their venerable so you need to roll a 5+ on a penetrating hit twice to destroy it.
9 screamers are extremely unlikely to destroy the land raider.

Plague drones hit on a 3+ then need a 6 to glance. This means each attack has a .11% of stripping a hull point.
To strip 4 hull points, you will need about 36 attacks to do the job -- or 9 plague drones. If your facing a land radier with a force field you will 2 of those squads.
One squad of those guys sets you back 378 points.

Those DA land raiders are stupidly hard to kill and stupidly good at dealing damage. Last weekend I charged one with a DP wielding the axe of blind fury. Even with 9 attacks, I failed to blow one up. I knocked off 2 hull points and stunned it. The other two land raiders then shot my DP to bits. Smash is great, but it does not give enough hits.

What makes them so hard to kill are the venerable rule, the 4++ force field, and the techmarine fixing them. The fact they get salvo 4 with their bolters, a MM, and an AC mean they can hurt anything. I have a huge respect for the durability and firepower of the DA land raider spam. I think thats going to be the 'sleeper build' for MEQ. It will get knocked out by Tau when the codex is released, I'm sure

They have some hard counters. Melta spam will take them out, due to the number of melta shots. Manticore spam causes them issues. DA beast/witch spam causes big problems. But I don't know a solution that daemons have that's a hard counter aside from plague bearer spam.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 18:49:00


Post by: Exergy


 labmouse42 wrote:
Screamers have 1 attack each if they want to use lamprey bite.
Being STR 5, they need to roll at least a 9 to glance, and a 10 to penetrate on 2d6.
If the land raider moved, they each screamer has a 18% of stripping a hull point off, and a 11% of penetrating.
Remember the DA land raiders have a 4+ invlun save from their stupid force field, and their venerable so you need to roll a 5+ on a penetrating hit twice to destroy it.
9 screamers are extremely unlikely to destroy the land raider.

Plague drones hit on a 3+ then need a 6 to glance. This means each attack has a .11% of stripping a hull point.
To strip 4 hull points, you will need about 36 attacks to do the job -- or 9 plague drones. If your facing a land radier with a force field you will 2 of those squads.
One squad of those guys sets you back 378 points.

Those DA land raiders are stupidly hard to kill and stupidly good at dealing damage. Last weekend I charged one with a DP wielding the axe of blind fury. Even with 9 attacks, I failed to blow one up. I knocked off 2 hull points and stunned it. The other two land raiders then shot my DP to bits. Smash is great, but it does not give enough hits.

What makes them so hard to kill are the venerable rule, the 4++ force field, and the techmarine fixing them. The fact they get salvo 4 with their bolters, a MM, and an AC mean they can hurt anything. I have a huge respect for the durability and firepower of the DA land raider spam. I think thats going to be the 'sleeper build' for MEQ. It will get knocked out by Tau when the codex is released, I'm sure

They have some hard counters. Melta spam will take them out, due to the number of melta shots. Manticore spam causes them issues. DA beast/witch spam causes big problems. But I don't know a solution that daemons have that's a hard counter aside from plague bearer spam.


and so a return of DE in at least being an allies option. No codex deals with landraiders like DE.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 18:54:47


Post by: Puscifer


I'm thinking of DE as Allies too, but they are too fragile imo and you can't bring enough to make a difference.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 18:54:53


Post by: labmouse42


DE in raiders is key. You need to be able to have protection against that first volley of bolter shots that are incoming. A smart DA player will ignore the beast pack of cheeze and just focus on the wytches.
And yes, the DE wytches with haywire are an excellent counter.

Dark lances are not really all that hot. Each shot has a .166% of stripping off a hull point. You would need such a crap-ton of dark lances to explode 3 land radiers its not even funny.

Now, 3 squads of wytches with hawire gernades though.....


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 18:56:07


Post by: GiraffeX


Thanks for the review mercer I found it really informative and an easy read.

Great for those that dont have the codex yet, I really want to try a Slaanesh force now, I was going to do mono khorne but I'm not so sure now after reading your review of the bloodletters.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 19:07:07


Post by: D6Damager


 labmouse42 wrote:
Screamers have 1 attack each if they want to use lamprey bite.
Being STR 5, they need to roll at least a 9 to glance, and a 10 to penetrate on 2d6.
If the land raider moved, they each screamer has a 18% of stripping a hull point off, and a 11% of penetrating.
Remember the DA land raiders have a 4+ invlun save from their stupid force field, and their venerable so you need to roll a 5+ on a penetrating hit twice to destroy it.
9 screamers are extremely unlikely to destroy the land raider.

Plague drones hit on a 3+ then need a 6 to glance. This means each attack has a .11% of stripping a hull point.
To strip 4 hull points, you will need about 36 attacks to do the job -- or 9 plague drones. If your facing a land radier with a force field you will 2 of those squads.
One squad of those guys sets you back 378 points.

Those DA land raiders are stupidly hard to kill and stupidly good at dealing damage. Last weekend I charged one with a DP wielding the axe of blind fury. Even with 9 attacks, I failed to blow one up. I knocked off 2 hull points and stunned it. The other two land raiders then shot my DP to bits. Smash is great, but it does not give enough hits.

What makes them so hard to kill are the venerable rule, the 4++ force field, and the techmarine fixing them. The fact they get salvo 4 with their bolters, a MM, and an AC mean they can hurt anything. I have a huge respect for the durability and firepower of the DA land raider spam. I think thats going to be the 'sleeper build' for MEQ. It will get knocked out by Tau when the codex is released, I'm sure

They have some hard counters. Melta spam will take them out, due to the number of melta shots. Manticore spam causes them issues. DA beast/witch spam causes big problems. But I don't know a solution that daemons have that's a hard counter aside from plague bearer spam.


I don't put much faith in math hammer. I've actually done it twice now in the game with 9 screamers plus herald on disc with grimoire of true names.

Will I eventually fail my dice rolls...or my opponent roll godly? Math hammer says so, but it won't stop me from throwing my Screamers unit at a landraider or monolith or whatever av14 is across from me. It is one of the best unit/combos in the dex IMO. If they FAQ that Lamprey's Bite still gets the +1 A for charging (crosses fingers) then all the better.

I haven't tried it with plague drones yet. YMMV


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 19:18:41


Post by: phantommaster


Nice review there. But my problem with the new codex is that taking a single God is no longer competitive, as stated all the units interact with each other, my 3000pts of pure Khorne are now pretty weak.

Also could you please confirm that the Bloodcrushers lost T5? I flicked through the other day and thought it was S5 they lost.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 19:27:38


Post by: Green is Best!


 phantommaster wrote:
Nice review there. But my problem with the new codex is that taking a single God is no longer competitive, as stated all the units interact with each other, my 3000pts of pure Khorne are now pretty weak.

Also could you please confirm that the Bloodcrushers lost T5? I flicked through the other day and thought it was S5 they lost.


Crushers are T4
Letters are T3

Sad day for fans of Khorne Flakes everywhere.

Letters are on par with daemonettes and horrors.
Crushers on par with plaguebearers.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 19:58:46


Post by: Exergy


 labmouse42 wrote:
DE in raiders is key. You need to be able to have protection against that first volley of bolter shots that are incoming. A smart DA player will ignore the beast pack of cheeze and just focus on the wytches.
And yes, the DE wytches with haywire are an excellent counter.

Dark lances are not really all that hot. Each shot has a .166% of stripping off a hull point. You would need such a crap-ton of dark lances to explode 3 land radiers its not even funny.

Now, 3 squads of wytches with hawire gernades though.....


assuming each radier has a 4++:
certainly, but each shot has of .11 chance of getting a damage result, at +1 on the chart, and while that is only a 1/3 chance of blowing it up and with the reroll worse, when you factor in other results like imobilized or blowing off a weapon it is nice. Add in the fact that DE dark lances are cheap and spammable and you have a recipe for success(1 LR costs the same as 6 dark lances on platforms, and that is before the techmarine with the 4++ field or venerable). Also you are talking about LR spam and by all codexes. All marine codexes do not have 4++ LRs and even DA would be hard pressed to give it too 3 raiders. (can they even?)


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 20:03:38


Post by: Kingsley


I don't think the DA Raider armies are viable all-comers lists-- the Ravenwing variations on the same theme seem much stronger. The problem with the Raider armies is that Dark Eldar and Necrons both rip them apart by simply removing all the Hull Points from the Raiders. Further, LR armies are inherently too luck-based and "swingy" to see true GT competitive play in my opinion. The chances of getting your lynchpin unit killed by a lucky melta, lascannon, lance, or railgun are too high for this type of army to win seven games.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 20:42:21


Post by: Sephyr



Anyone notice that IG is now -way- better at fighting daemons than, say Grey Knights?

You don't need Nemesis weaponry because they are no longer EW. You don't even need psycannons and other heavy, arcane stuff because the Tougness of everything but a Greater Daemon is way down. And it's actually a bad idea to lug tons of psykers around them as that is just asking to spawn more heralds.

Nah, just fire lasgun volleys into the troops and pump Vendetta lascannons and plasmavet fire into the big stuff, and you'll be fine. Safer, too.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 20:52:03


Post by: Exergy


 Sephyr wrote:

Anyone notice that IG is now -way- better at fighting daemons than, say Grey Knights?

You don't need Nemesis weaponry because they are no longer EW. You don't even need psycannons and other heavy, arcane stuff because the Tougness of everything but a Greater Daemon is way down. And it's actually a bad idea to lug tons of psykers around them as that is just asking to spawn more heralds.

Nah, just fire lasgun volleys into the troops and pump Vendetta lascannons and plasmavet fire into the big stuff, and you'll be fine. Safer, too.


mass str 5 storm bolters do pretty well in my mind against daemons now. Not that many GK use them enough, but its an idea.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 21:16:00


Post by: Redbeard


 mercer wrote:

Bloodthirster

...

Note that the Bloodthirster is a force multiplier and Daemon Princes who have the daemon of khorne upgrade are heavy support instead of HQ choices.


Do you know what a force multiplier is? It doesn't mean he unlocks a different type of selection for a unit. That's unlocking.

A force multiplier is something that makes models around it better. For example, a Blood Angel Sanquinary Priest is a force multiplier - he gives everyone near him FNP. An ork mek with a forcefield grants a 5+ cover save to all units near him. That's a force multiplier. A bloodthirster, as kick-ass as it may be, is not a force multiplier, it's simply a powerful piece.

Really, if you're going to write reviews, do some basic research on terminology.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 23:09:32


Post by: ers126


Thanks mercer for starting the thread. We have diverged a bit onto what armies are good/bad against demons so back to topic - reviewing the new codex.

My 2cents:
Chariots can be mean. Tzeentch chariot (regular or Herald) can take an ap2 etherblade. That makes for nasty sweep attacks.

Furies have potential. So cheap. LD2 can be overcome by adding a Herald (Disc, Steed, or Jugger to keep up).

Demon psychic powers are generally weak compared to the BRB. Kinda surprised there aren't a few gems in here.

Fiends lost Hit & Run.. that makes me sad.

Demons of Slaanesh have Rending. (the demons themselves, not rending claws like before). Does this mean ranged attacks also get Rending?

A few beefs.
GW - if you insist on reusing the names for gifts/power we all know and love from past editions, don't make it completely different and unrelated to said gift/power from before. eg, Pavane, Acquiesence, Lash, Bolt of Change, Soporific Musk, etc. Make up a new name.

Blue Horror tokens that cause S2 AP- hits? Really? Let's all agree to just ignore this waste of time. There's enough special rules/effects/counters to keep track of already. If you wanted to bring back Blue horrors then just make Pink horrors split into 2 blue horrors like they once did. Bonus to GW: We all have to buy more models.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/08 23:12:34


Post by: Puscifer


This review is making me want to try a Daemons Undivided list.

Any pointers?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 00:37:19


Post by: Razerous


I just love the hilarity of the 11-strong pink horrors. 6 squads of.

A) Amazing, can be very flexible and have large volumes of firepower. Firepower which causes the addition hits and wounds. Similar concept to the melta-cutters and Tesla Destructor's.

B) Too fickle with most games ending with squads shrugging off too much firepower because of 'gifted' FNP.

Only a mere ~600pts. A good troop choice core... or a hilarious but failed concept?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 01:54:31


Post by: tinfoil


Razerous wrote:
...11-strong pink horrors. 6 squads of...

Too risky, IMO. Against armies that can shut down psychic powers effectively, your troops are rendered 50% reliable. Deny the witch denies their firepower. And horrors will melt away in close combat. (They don't even have overwatch, if I interpret the rules correctly, since their "shooting" is a psychic power.) Against eldar, tyranids, certain SM/Space Wolves armies, this army will struggle mightily. It's a paper army scissors armies will shred to ribbons.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 02:00:52


Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis


Razerous wrote:
I just love the hilarity of the 11-strong pink horrors. 6 squads of.

A) Amazing, can be very flexible and have large volumes of firepower. Firepower which causes the addition hits and wounds. Similar concept to the melta-cutters and Tesla Destructor's.

B) Too fickle with most games ending with squads shrugging off too much firepower because of 'gifted' FNP.

Only a mere ~600pts. A good troop choice core... or a hilarious but failed concept?


If you think thats fun, in a high point game, 1200 pts for 120 horrors (6x20) is practically trolling your opponent


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 03:21:55


Post by: Razerous


 tinfoil wrote:
Razerous wrote:
...11-strong pink horrors. 6 squads of...

Too risky, IMO. Against armies that can shut down psychic powers effectively, your troops are rendered 50% reliable. Deny the witch denies their firepower. And horrors will melt away in close combat. (They don't even have overwatch, if I interpret the rules correctly, since their "shooting" is a psychic power.) Against eldar, tyranids, certain SM/Space Wolves armies, this army will struggle mightily. It's a paper army scissors armies will shred to ribbons.
I agree to all of those things. I'm musing on whether or not their firepower is potent enough to balance out the DtW & Casting rolls.

As for overwatch, spot on sir - this is why I reckon they gave them the blue horror rule which, again, is quite amusing, they'll be laughing from their graves!

As for survivability, just-as-good as most of the other troop choices. Doing more upfront damage (hopefully). And, what do you think, if the beam power is rolled, it is serviceable anti-tank - as the beam auto-hit offsets the random D6 damage roll. Thoughts?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 03:59:38


Post by: felixcat


mass str 5 storm bolters do pretty well in my mind against daemons now. Not that many GK use them enough, but its an idea.


Here is your problem. Let's look at a GK list. I nsend in my Interceptors and DK with incinerators ... goodbye whole squads. Or I take what a friend likes ... Purgation with incinerators in storm ravens. Goodbye squads. Or I take some rhinos and rush them down your throat blocking your cc squads and then shoot them to bits. Or I simply use Heldrakes and Night Scythes. Maybe A, Barges. Goodbye to everything. FMCs are just not good. I could go on but why. Almost every army out there can hurt demons. Some more than others of course - GK,Necs, DE.

FMCs are a big joke. They will and do get shot down way to easily and they are your anti-flyer. So forget about anti-flyer. Who cares that I get them as heavy support. I don't want them.

Your Soulgrinders are not taking out any AV12+ period. Still, not a bad unit - I would want Khorne for the cheapest mark. Maybe bring them to an icon w/instrument early. Khorne Cannon are overated on the net badly. Already discussed FMCs. Flying Circus never was the best demon build.

Your troops are a joke with their T3 5+. I see some decent units ... deamonettes, 'letters but they are cc units. Good luck getting consistent results at a tournament with these. And you cannot play horde with these troops. Guardsmen have the same stats. Seriously. You take a fantasy codex and convert it to 40K?

Heralds are okay - not too fond of Nurgle, Khorne Juggy is acceptable. It is Tzeentch and Slaanesh that are best methinks. A Slaanesh Herald Exalted, Steed Lvl 2 with some seekers are a very good unit. A juggy Herald with flesh hounds are okay (not as good as seekers).

The codex is just bad. You were better with the old flamer/screamer lists. Now both got the nerf bat and we were not given anything of note in return.

Do you like the gifts and loci and instrument and icon and lash rules? And Warp Storm? ? Pages of nonsense. Oh there are some usuable ones but still ... I don't want to hear that Grimoire is an auto-include anymore. It is not.

And to finish off - how am I going to succeed with demons when they are so random. Yes there is demonic instability. I'm not optimistic.

Do I sound whiney? I'm not really that person. But I see the codex and cannot wonder what GW was thinking. Make Xenos unplayable?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 06:39:07


Post by: Xeriapt


 felixcat wrote:
mass str 5 storm bolters do pretty well in my mind against daemons now. Not that many GK use them enough, but its an idea.


Here is your problem. Let's look at a GK list. I nsend in my Interceptors and DK with incinerators ... goodbye whole squads. Or I take what a friend likes ... Purgation with incinerators in storm ravens. Goodbye squads. Or I take some rhinos and rush them down your throat blocking your cc squads and then shoot them to bits. Or I simply use Heldrakes and Night Scythes. Maybe A, Barges. Goodbye to everything. FMCs are just not good. I could go on but why. Almost every army out there can hurt demons. Some more than others of course - GK,Necs, DE.

FMCs are a big joke. They will and do get shot down way to easily and they are your anti-flyer. So forget about anti-flyer. Who cares that I get them as heavy support. I don't want them.

Your Soulgrinders are not taking out any AV12+ period. Still, not a bad unit - I would want Khorne for the cheapest mark. Maybe bring them to an icon w/instrument early. Khorne Cannon are overated on the net badly. Already discussed FMCs. Flying Circus never was the best demon build.

Your troops are a joke with their T3 5+. I see some decent units ... deamonettes, 'letters but they are cc units. Good luck getting consistent results at a tournament with these. And you cannot play horde with these troops. Guardsmen have the same stats. Seriously. You take a fantasy codex and convert it to 40K?

Heralds are okay - not too fond of Nurgle, Khorne Juggy is acceptable. It is Tzeentch and Slaanesh that are best methinks. A Slaanesh Herald Exalted, Steed Lvl 2 with some seekers are a very good unit. A juggy Herald with flesh hounds are okay (not as good as seekers).

The codex is just bad. You were better with the old flamer/screamer lists. Now both got the nerf bat and we were not given anything of note in return.

Do you like the gifts and loci and instrument and icon and lash rules? And Warp Storm? ? Pages of nonsense. Oh there are some usuable ones but still ... I don't want to hear that Grimoire is an auto-include anymore. It is not.

And to finish off - how am I going to succeed with demons when they are so random. Yes there is demonic instability. I'm not optimistic.

Do I sound whiney? I'm not really that person. But I see the codex and cannot wonder what GW was thinking. Make Xenos unplayable?


I think your selling the codex short and overall your post does come across a bit doom and gloom.
Give them a chance and if you have some daemons already play some games with them and try them out then decide what you think.

Personally Im looking forward to playing a horde daemon army and I think they would be decently competitive.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 07:16:18


Post by: McNinja


 felixcat wrote:
mass str 5 storm bolters do pretty well in my mind against daemons now. Not that many GK use them enough, but its an idea.


Here is your problem. Let's look at a GK list. I nsend in my Interceptors and DK with incinerators ... goodbye whole squads. Or I take what a friend likes ... Purgation with incinerators in storm ravens. Goodbye squads. Or I take some rhinos and rush them down your throat blocking your cc squads and then shoot them to bits. Or I simply use Heldrakes and Night Scythes. Maybe A, Barges. Goodbye to everything. FMCs are just not good. I could go on but why. Almost every army out there can hurt demons. Some more than others of course - GK,Necs, DE.

FMCs are a big joke. They will and do get shot down way to easily and they are your anti-flyer. So forget about anti-flyer. Who cares that I get them as heavy support. I don't want them.

Your Soulgrinders are not taking out any AV12+ period. Still, not a bad unit - I would want Khorne for the cheapest mark. Maybe bring them to an icon w/instrument early. Khorne Cannon are overated on the net badly. Already discussed FMCs. Flying Circus never was the best demon build.

Your troops are a joke with their T3 5+. I see some decent units ... deamonettes, 'letters but they are cc units. Good luck getting consistent results at a tournament with these. And you cannot play horde with these troops. Guardsmen have the same stats. Seriously. You take a fantasy codex and convert it to 40K?

Heralds are okay - not too fond of Nurgle, Khorne Juggy is acceptable. It is Tzeentch and Slaanesh that are best methinks. A Slaanesh Herald Exalted, Steed Lvl 2 with some seekers are a very good unit. A juggy Herald with flesh hounds are okay (not as good as seekers).

The codex is just bad. You were better with the old flamer/screamer lists. Now both got the nerf bat and we were not given anything of note in return.

Do you like the gifts and loci and instrument and icon and lash rules? And Warp Storm? ? Pages of nonsense. Oh there are some usuable ones but still ... I don't want to hear that Grimoire is an auto-include anymore. It is not.

And to finish off - how am I going to succeed with demons when they are so random. Yes there is demonic instability. I'm not optimistic.

Do I sound whiney? I'm not really that person. But I see the codex and cannot wonder what GW was thinking. Make Xenos unplayable?
Bloodthirster v. Dreadknight. Tell me how long the DK lasts in CC against 6 S7 AP2 attacks at I9. That one 12" S6 AP2 attack that's basically twin-linked thanks to BS10 is only helping.

Letters have the Banner of Blood once per game for that 6+D6" charge. That's rather helpful.

As for flyers... Sure, it is not hard to ground FMC's. However, a normal Bloodletter has BS5. suddenly, that icarus LC on the ADL seems almost worth it. Even more so with a herald, and god-forbid you have Skulltaker manning the Icarus.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 07:41:58


Post by: Xeriapt


Why waste pts on lascannons when you could get more daemons? :p


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 08:19:12


Post by: Puscifer


I agree with Xeriapt, a lot of people are selling the Daemons book short and disregarding a book with a fair amount of powerful builds.

My friends and I have been testing several builds against many tourney staples and possible powerful fringe builds in hopes of going to tourneys later this year.

The only bad matchups we've had are Heldrake Spam, DA Banner/Land Raider and Dark Eldar. GK are at best 50/50 against us and are close games. Guard can be a hassle too, but only if you don't know how to take them out. Hitting them hard on the flank tends to work well.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 08:50:24


Post by: felixcat





I did not say a DK could handle a BT. I said a two pronged incinerator attack (Str6 instagibs demons), psycannons and stormbolters will hurt. GK may be beatable - unlikely - depending on the list you face and what allies they take and if you tailor for them.. Rune Priests and Farseers are worse for sure. I did not mention the banner of blood - I agree that is one item I would take. I've only had one game against demons so far - SW/SM and had no real problems. I've seen two others. Looking at the lists that won Indy I see trouble for demons. Sure an ADL/Bastion certainly could help. But overall the codex has a whole lot of holes. You cannot convince me these guys can handle sustained fire. I will be happy tp be proved wrong but I see any decent allied build with multiple flyers are buffered template weapons - see IG - causing problems. At least Nids have psychic defense. They can play MCs that spawn buffers and their FMCs have biomancy. And they lose more often than win. Rending does not help genestealers. CC builds have a tough battle in 6ed. I keep reading reports of battles where new demons seem unstoppable. Ihaven't experienced that. Maybe I'm wrong.







-----
edited spelling










Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 12:39:04


Post by: Puscifer


As it stands, GKs maul GD.

The 6 toughness means nothing against their attacks. The GUO is the only one that can stand up to GK and that's only because of it's potential to get toughness 10.

Thirsters and Skarbrand can seriously smash GK in the face, but as long as one or two survive the Daemons are doomed.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 13:17:19


Post by: labmouse42


 felixcat wrote:
Do I sound whiney? I'm not really that person. But I see the codex and cannot wonder what GW was thinking. Make Xenos unplayable?
That's funny. I was just listening to the 11th company podcast and every one on the podcast was saying that Xenos are the only armies to play right now. They also all said the daemon codex was very good.

Isn't it funny how the grass is always greener under the other armies boots?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 13:57:08


Post by: Redbeard


McNinja wrote:
Bloodthirster v. Dreadknight. Tell me how long the DK lasts in CC against 6 S7 AP2 attacks at I9. That one 12" S6 AP2 attack that's basically twin-linked thanks to BS10 is only helping.


Explain to me why the Grey Knight player is going to let that fight happen. You don't fight Bloodthirsters, you shoot Bloodthirsters, and 5 wounds aren't that hard to strip off something, especially with hordes of S5 stormbolters and psycannons. My Bloodthirster didn't survive turn one in the game I ran him.


 labmouse42 wrote:

That's funny. I was just listening to the 11th company podcast and every one on the podcast was saying that Xenos are the only armies to play right now. They also all said the daemon codex was very good.


And what have they done that I should respect their opinion? Bought a microphone?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 14:10:01


Post by: felixcat


Isn't it funny how the grass is always greener under the other armies boots?


This has nothing to do with being jealous of another player's army. I can pick up the army I want.
Xenos = Necrons - then the statement makes sense as Necs are figuring in many a winning tournament list as a primary force. Other than that they are allied detachments which are not bad per say but imperial forces are better on the whole and shown more love by GW. This is a side issue though. I'm simply expressing my thoughts on how I have perceived the weaknesses of the new codex.

So ...
1) Poor saves and no eternal warrior
2) Poor anti-flyer
3) Poor psychic defense
4) Too much randomness - we aren't Orks - and some of the rules put me to sleep. I can take an half an hour rolling on the tables if I use MSU.

Obviously you need to protect your stronger cc troops be it Crushers (hit bad by the nerf bat but still relatively okay with Juggy Herald and Banner of Blood), Seekers with Herald and gifts and psychic powers, Flesh Hounds, et all. So we take a Grimoire and limit our options? How else do I protect my troops which are essential in 6ed? There may well be a decent demon list out there. But overall, I see more minus than plus in the codex. I will say they might make a quite decent allied detachment. Herald, demonettes, seekers, grinder. This could add some cc punch to a list that has none and a decent heavy.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 15:01:17


Post by: Brymm


Xenos not good? Your argument is invalid!
Tyranids are strong. Necrons are amazing. DE have a place. Tau/eldrad is a build that can work. DE beast packs, harlistars, eldar councils... Xenos unplayable? After that crapper of a Dark Angels codex, I'd be worried about loyalists.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 15:11:51


Post by: felixcat



You need to read more closely. I said excluding Necrons and only as allied forces do Xenos really shine.

Please lets not discuss Nids. They have their moments but they have too many almost auto-losses.

I know - you saw beastpacks win right. In Sean's hands. He is an excellent and intelligent player. It is viable but I had problems mastering it. I'll grant that. The rest - one trick ponies easily countered.

The proof is in the pudding. Imperial forces or Necrons with allies are winning in 6ed at the majority of events. .

The DA codex was a bit disappointing although Ravenwing lists are not terrible. Not stellar for a new 6ed codex though.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 16:57:54


Post by: Barrywise


Guys you are obviously missing the point of the codex, you're supposed to spam Exalted Seeker Chariots as much as you can, as in the full 17 that you can possibly take. The fact that you're even able to do that makes me sad.

Great review btw


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 17:09:23


Post by: Sgt. Salt


People have been freaking out over the randomness in the new book and treating it like it's going to lose you every game.

I've played a few games with it and with proper order of operations you can make it work to your advantage more than against you.

What other army has the ability to tweek it's list before every game to suit its needs? I've been playing a flying circus with fateweaver and between all of the gifts and powers I usually end up with some shooting ability or a defense boost and what I don't get from gifts I make up for in psychic powers. It costs more but troops cost less.

And as for Pink Horrors (admittedly the only troops I run) as long as one is alive they still have the same damage output as at 10 strong which should not be overlooked. Buy them in 11 so you roll twice and you're bound to get a decent anti tank weapon. Bolt is cool because even at str 6 (Herald) if you hit several tanks you'll get one of them.

The warpflame rule is a pain but it's taught me to wipe out one unit at a time very quickly. The fact that only one horror has to be in range helps with this and keeping them safe.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 17:18:16


Post by: Valek


 mercer wrote:
I am steadily working my work through the review of the Chaos Daemons codex. I thought I would share this with the good folk of Dakka.

Lord of Change



The Lord of Change is pretty much same profile as the Bloodthirster (which is funny as you'd thought the 'Thirster would be stronger), though doesn't has as good WS, BS, I and A. It does cost 20 points less though.

You can also have daemonic rewards, which the greater rewards are probably best considering the LoC only has a 5+ inv, though can re-roll 1's when saving as it is a daemon of tzeentch. In addition the daemon if tzeentch rules gives +3 when using psychic powers, though the giant daemon bird is LD9 anyway.

The LoC (Lord of Change) is a flying monstrous creature and is a mastery level 2 psyker, you can pay 25 points and make it a mastery level 3. LoC can use divination and change disciplines. The change discipline is unique for Tzeentch Daemons and as you can guess is all shooting based. The bad news about these shooting powers is all have this silly warpflame rule; if the enemy unit suffers an unsaved wound, then the unit must take a toughness test, if it passes it gains feel no pain (this stacks)!If failed the unit suffers D3 wounds no armour or cover saves.

Here's the powers:

Flickering Fire of Tzeentch - 24" S5 AP4 assault 2D6, soul blaze - you can use 1,2 or 3 warp charge points to use this power, for each warp charge point you use you add an extra D6 - so 3 warp charge points would fire 4D6 shots! Add in prescience and that re-roll armour save one from divination and you're laughing.

Tzeentch's Firestorm - 24" SD6+1 AP- assault 1, blast

Bolt of Tzeentch - 24" SD6+4 AP2 assault 1

Infernal Gateweay - 18" SD6+4 AP1 assault 1, blast

Like the Bloodthirster, Lord of Changes makes Princes with the daemon of tzeentch upgrade heavy support choices.

Summary

Personally I do not think the standard Tzeentch powers are that good and find them very unreliable. Taking a big ass Daemon with a 5+ inv save costing 255 points just to fire a crap load of S5 shots is a bit much. Sure there's some good divination powers i.e prescience and some other powers, though you are hoping you get good luck. If you add in greater rewards this Daemon-Chicken gets more survivable, but costs a lot more points - you're talking close to 300 points!

Rating: 5/10




Seriously, in my oppinion he is much better than any other GD, he can twinlink himself or other units, sure shooting is not that good, but with a lesser gift giving him S8 ap2 he is a force to reckon with. Add two defensive rewards extra he will be extremely good, he is however 305 points. And he flies, that means that he will add his powers where needed and can kill units or characters.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 17:22:17


Post by: Razerous


 Sgt. Salt wrote:
. Buy them in 11 so you roll twice and you're bound to get a decent anti tank weapon. Bolt is cool because even at str 6 (Herald) if you hit several tanks you'll get one of them.
You only roll once. Generating rolls on the tables is solely linked to ones Psychic Mastery Level.

11 is still great for the extra warp charge & additional shots.

I'm not sure if the herald is worth using with the beam power. THey aren't cheap/free, they buff horrors and will buff horrors best by improving volume of shooting. Single beam attacks, best go for smaller squads (x11).

Edit: A LoC, as a FMC, is astoundingly good. Divination rolls alone allow him to wreck face in CC. The fragility of FMC is offset entirely by T6 6W 5++ and the middle-rewards being very geared towards improving staying power. I agree (any) good shooting power is valuble for a FMC, which the LoC has atleast partially.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 17:24:13


Post by: Sephyr


 Sgt. Salt wrote:

What other army has the ability to tweek it's list before every game to suit its needs? I've been playing a flying circus with fateweaver and between all of the gifts and powers I usually end up with some shooting ability or a defense boost and what I don't get from gifts I make up for in psychic powers. It costs more but troops cost less.

And as for Pink Horrors (admittedly the only troops I run) as long as one is alive they still have the same damage output as at 10 strong which should not be overlooked. Buy them in 11 so you roll twice and you're bound to get a decent anti tank weapon. Bolt is cool because even at str 6 (Herald) if you hit several tanks you'll get one of them.



Except now all of those powers are subject to Shadow inthe Warp, Eldar Runes, Rune Priest cancelling then on a 4+, Deny the Witch, Perils. And good luck finding shooting that is not psychic in nature. I doubt you'll run out of fingers of one hand.

Horrors are just...weird, and not in the cool Tzentchian way. Even rolling well their volume of fire is aggressively mediocre and weak, I can sort of picture granting FNP to an enemy that survives a strong attack, like an eldritch melta blast, in a save-or-prosper mindset. "Phew! you avoided a gruesome attack, so now you get a little boon". But after lame S4 bolter-equivalent? It'll be fun watching guard blobs going about with 2+ FNP, and by fun I mean sad.

Having the same volume of fire with 1 or 10 models in the aquad is not that big of an advantage when the number was not great in the first place and the unit is so fragile that it's reasonably easy to wipe it completely with regular fire from 1-2 regular units.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 18:54:01


Post by: lordofthegophers


I stopped reading after you gave the Lord of Change 5/10.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 19:16:12


Post by: McNinja


 Sephyr wrote:
 Sgt. Salt wrote:

What other army has the ability to tweek it's list before every game to suit its needs? I've been playing a flying circus with fateweaver and between all of the gifts and powers I usually end up with some shooting ability or a defense boost and what I don't get from gifts I make up for in psychic powers. It costs more but troops cost less.

And as for Pink Horrors (admittedly the only troops I run) as long as one is alive they still have the same damage output as at 10 strong which should not be overlooked. Buy them in 11 so you roll twice and you're bound to get a decent anti tank weapon. Bolt is cool because even at str 6 (Herald) if you hit several tanks you'll get one of them.



Except now all of those powers are subject to Shadow inthe Warp, Eldar Runes, Rune Priest cancelling then on a 4+, Deny the Witch, Perils. And good luck finding shooting that is not psychic in nature. I doubt you'll run out of fingers of one hand.

Horrors are just...weird, and not in the cool Tzentchian way. Even rolling well their volume of fire is aggressively mediocre and weak, I can sort of picture granting FNP to an enemy that survives a strong attack, like an eldritch melta blast, in a save-or-prosper mindset. "Phew! you avoided a gruesome attack, so now you get a little boon". But after lame S4 bolter-equivalent? It'll be fun watching guard blobs going about with 2+ FNP, and by fun I mean sad.

Having the same volume of fire with 1 or 10 models in the aquad is not that big of an advantage when the number was not great in the first place and the unit is so fragile that it's reasonably easy to wipe it completely with regular fire from 1-2 regular units.
I was startled by the Pink Horrors shooting abilities, or lack thereof. 3 warp charges isn't bad, but it sure isn't good. Why they are forced to use psychic shooting attacks instead of normal attacks, and only three of them at that.

I'm concerned about the T3, but I'm not entirely put off by it. I hoping that a single blob of 20 BLs with 2 smaller 10 man units that DS in later or even just bring up the rear can survive long enough to assault turn 2.

Also, I feel like that because the developers don't playtest or make rules with tournaments or competitions in mind, they don't think about how long the games actually take or how the Warp Storm/Instability charts actually affect the game, since their job is to play games all day. When you have all day every day to just sit around and play 40k, you lose a bit of perspective that those of us with jobs and girl/boyfriends and school have.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/09 23:39:53


Post by: Puscifer


Ok...

So after four of my friends and I have tested Daemons for just over a week of solid games, we have found them to be an army that is powerful, but needs a very subtle hand to control them.

Every unit must be used together. Army synergy is needed more in this army than any other due to the fragility of it's rank and vile.

GD are the games best mc. They can turn games around in one fell swoop, but they cost a fortune for this power and they bring little else to the army.

In testing we each took 1850 point Mono forces and an 1850 point mixed force against some tourney staple armies - Imperial Guard Mech, DE Venom Spam, Heldrake spam CSM, GK and Cron Air.

We found the Mono lists to be very underpowered in some areas and overpowered in others. Mono Nurgle was best vs gunline armies, due to cover saves, but useless against cc armies.

The mixed list had the best results against all comers, with only Heldrake spam, Cron Air and Venom Spam giving them trouble.

We came to a decision that they are the most subtle army to control and that out of five of us, only one would try them in a competitive environment.

Has anyone else managed to get results that confirm this or have an opinion?

Please note that we rate the codex highly and that the armies we played were very fun to play.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/10 00:05:44


Post by: labmouse42


 Redbeard wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:

That's funny. I was just listening to the 11th company podcast and every one on the podcast was saying that Xenos are the only armies to play right now. They also all said the daemon codex was very good.


And what have they done that I should respect their opinion? Bought a microphone?
* Attend national tourneys on a regular basis
* Win national tourneys
* Win tourneys with lists that become 'net lists'.
* Built the 40k community

What have you done? Bought a keyboard?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/10 00:58:53


Post by: XT-1984


 felixcat wrote:


The codex is just bad. You were better with the old flamer/screamer lists. Now both got the nerf bat and we were not given anything of note in return.


Hang on, those lists were awful. I have 27 Screamers and 9 Flamers in my old 1500 point White Dwarf Update list. Because it looked good on paper.

In the sheer overpoweredness of that army was more of a curse than a gift though. I couldn't lose with it, and when there's no risk of losing whats the fun in playing.


Overall I really like the codex. So many options in it.

And I think Soulgrinders are awesome. They don't suffer from Daemonic Instability but get their 5++. They're immune to small arms fire. With 5 S10 Attacks when Assaulting. And of course, Armor 13.

To top it off you can give them a Battle Cannon (half range but thats not a problem).


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/10 02:16:19


Post by: Tarrasq


 Sephyr wrote:

But after lame S4 bolter-equivalent?


Its S5 AP 4 a heavy bolter equivalent and they can be buffed to S6 with a cheap HQ that brings prescience to the party.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/10 13:08:20


Post by: Redbeard


 labmouse42 wrote:

* Attend national tourneys on a regular basis


so they're giving prizes for showing up now?


* Win national tourneys
* Win tourneys with lists that become 'net lists'.


Which ones?


* Built the 40k community


"The 40k community" - really? That's kind of funny.

What have you done? Bought a keyboard?


I used to have some of that in my sig, but it got too long. I've placed in the top ten of multiple GTs since 2007, and have a shelf full of trophies from both local tourneys and GTs. But really, that's not important, as I'm not the one professing to be an expert. If you throw down someone's opinion as authoritative on a subject, you should be prepared to explain why they're the authority.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/10 14:39:46


Post by: felixcat


The mixed list had the best results against all comers, with only Heldrake spam, Cron Air and Venom Spam giving them trouble.

We came to a decision that they are the most subtle army to control and that out of five of us, only one would try them in a competitive environment.


Three relatively prevalent builds. I'm not surprised only one of you is taking them to a tournament. They are not 'subtle'. They are random. You cannot plan for random. There are powerful units. I did say that there were a few. The problem is cost for those powerful units as opposed to the results achieved form them and the inherent risks fielding such expensive units. Honestly, i would play demons if they gave warp flame skyfire. A simple fix to alleviate the worst pressure somewhat the worst scenarios we can face as demons.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/10 15:36:26


Post by: calypso2ts


 felixcat wrote:

Three relatively prevalent builds. I'm not surprised only one of you is taking them to a tournament. They are not 'subtle'. They are random. You cannot plan for random.


You can plan for random. Gamers do it all the time. Okay, I have 24 S6 shots into their Dakka Jet - it should die, but if it does not, where do I position the rest of my units? (man it would be so...so...RANDOM if it did not go down) Where do I position the rest of my army so they can have a good target if it does/does not die, how do I plan for casualties so my assaulting unit can make it in, how do I plan for poor terrain rolls - those are all planning mechanisms to deal with randomness. The best players position themselves to take advantage of good luck while avoiding the worst impact of the bad.

Sometimes you just straight up get hosed - but that is any army. I do not think Daemons are any more random than the chance to fail 5 of 6 terminator saves - I saw this happen yesterday - and lose 200+ points in models from some sluggas.

For Daemons - I get -1 to my invulnerable save, where do I position my units - in the wide open away from cover since hey, cover is as good as my invuln? What is hard to plan for - but not impossible - is for 'tail effects' that occur when you hit the extreme side of the probability spectrum. That is why I think it is a bit silly to say, bring all Khorne so that only one warp storm result hurts you. Instead, make sure to minimize the maximum for extreme events.

In list design you can play all MSU - but on that snake eyes, do not be surprised if you lose far more models than a players with a few larger units on leadership tests - more importantly, somehow those 18 Seekers are still effective in combat after losing 2 models to instability.

 felixcat wrote:

Honestly, i would play demons if they gave warp flame skyfire. A simple fix to alleviate the worst pressure somewhat the worst scenarios we can face as demons.


With Divination Warpfire hits 11/36 of the time (which is basically BS 2 shots). You achieve about 50% more hits at their base BS 3 - but I am not sure if you really need it. It does not help against a Raven or Drake Front Armor - but those flyers cannot deny the with so you are guaranteed to get the shots. Too bad there is not a good way to grab divination in a Tzeetch dedicated unit.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 00:32:01


Post by: labmouse42


 Redbeard wrote:
Which ones?
I'm not going to google for you. Look up the names Blackmoor, Paul Murphy, and Neil Gilstrap. Mike Brandt has also been on the show on multiple occasions.
Before you go slamming popular 40k podcasts, I would suggest looking before you leap

 Redbeard wrote:
"The 40k community" - really? That's kind of funny.
Yes, community. The 40k community is a group of gamers who like to play with little painted toy figures on a board. Most of the people I meet at events become friends. Even people I debate on this forum Ill buy a beer if I see them at an event. If your at adepticon Ill even buy you a beer.

40k is not a big hobby. You see the same people again and again at big events. That is "The 40k community".


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 02:37:09


Post by: Redbeard


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Redbeard wrote:
Which ones?
I'm not going to google for you. Look up the names Blackmoor, Paul Murphy, and Neil Gilstrap. Mike Brandt has also been on the show on multiple occasions.
Before you go slamming popular 40k podcasts, I would suggest looking before you leap


Would you believe I did look? Why don't you check out their website (http://www.tangtwo.com/11thcompany/index.cfm, and find where it lists who they are? Hint: it doesn't. There's no "about" page, no "who we are" page. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask who they are or what they've done, because their site sure doesn't make it clear. I've played (and beat) Blackmoor at Adepticon a few years back, and lost to Brandt's mech guard in the team tournament a few years later, so I have an idea who these people are. I also see no evidence on the 11th company website that they're affiliated with it. Maybe they're just bad at web design though.

 Redbeard wrote:
"The 40k community" - really? That's kind of funny.
Yes, community. The 40k community is a group of gamers who like to play with little painted toy figures on a board. Most of the people I meet at events become friends. Even people I debate on this forum Ill buy a beer if I see them at an event. If your at adepticon Ill even buy you a beer.

40k is not a big hobby. You see the same people again and again at big events. That is "The 40k community".


Right. And you claimed that the 11th company guys built it. That's a stretch. I'd say that Legoburner and Yakface did more to build the 40k community than any podcasters, but even dakka's not the entire 40k community.

I'll be at adepticon, and I'm not one to pass up a free beer, so I'll have to find you and take you up on that I'll be playing Bloodbowl all day Sat and Sun though, because it's the only GW game that's remotely balanced anymore.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 02:52:08


Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis


 Redbeard wrote:


I used to have some of that in my sig, but it got too long. I've placed in the top ten of multiple GTs since 2007, and have a shelf full of trophies from both local tourneys and GTs. But really, that's not important, as I'm not the one professing to be an expert. If you throw down someone's opinion as authoritative on a subject, you should be prepared to explain why they're the authority.


Uh.huh sure you have. Forgive me for being incredulous since I can say and claim the exact same thing and you'd wouldn't be able to disprove it any more than I can prove/disprove your "shelf of trophies.





Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 02:57:49


Post by: Azreal13


Redbeard wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
 Redbeard wrote:
Which ones?
I'm not going to google for you. Look up the names Blackmoor, Paul Murphy, and Neil Gilstrap. Mike Brandt has also been on the show on multiple occasions.
Before you go slamming popular 40k podcasts, I would suggest looking before you leap


Would you believe I did look? Why don't you check out their website (http://www.tangtwo.com/11thcompany/index.cfm, and find where it lists who they are? Hint: it doesn't. There's no "about" page, no "who we are" page. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask who they are or what they've done, because their site sure doesn't make it clear. I've played (and beat) Blackmoor at Adepticon a few years back, and lost to Brandt's mech guard in the team tournament a few years later, so I have an idea who these people are. I also see no evidence on the 11th company website that they're affiliated with it. Maybe they're just bad at web design though.

 Redbeard wrote:
"The 40k community" - really? That's kind of funny.
Yes, community. The 40k community is a group of gamers who like to play with little painted toy figures on a board. Most of the people I meet at events become friends. Even people I debate on this forum Ill buy a beer if I see them at an event. If your at adepticon Ill even buy you a beer.

40k is not a big hobby. You see the same people again and again at big events. That is "The 40k community".


Right. And you claimed that the 11th company guys built it. That's a stretch. I'd say that Legoburner and Yakface did more to build the 40k community than any podcasters, but even dakka's not the entire 40k community.

I'll be at adepticon, and I'm not one to pass up a free beer, so I'll have to find you and take you up on that I'll be playing Bloodbowl all day Sat and Sun though, because it's the only GW game that's remotely balanced anymore.


Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
 Redbeard wrote:


I used to have some of that in my sig, but it got too long. I've placed in the top ten of multiple GTs since 2007, and have a shelf full of trophies from both local tourneys and GTs. But really, that's not important, as I'm not the one professing to be an expert. If you throw down someone's opinion as authoritative on a subject, you should be prepared to explain why they're the authority.


Uh.huh sure you have. Forgive me for being incredulous since I can say and claim the exact same thing and you'd wouldn't be able to disprove it any more than I can prove/disprove your "shelf of trophies.





Erm.. Guys... Topic?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 03:49:19


Post by: Razerous


(Mathhammer averages)

What is better? One Tzeechnian herald, exalted gift & lvl 2 psyker + 16 pink horrors;

Or two Soul Grinders (stock);

@ taking out AV12 flyers?

(My mathhammer says they are near dead equal. Granted a pair of AV13 walkers > 17 T3 troops. But I think it puts things in perceptive).


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 04:20:47


Post by: Sasori


I'm honestly not quite sure of the place for the LOC. Perhaps I'm not seeing it, but he just doesn't seem all that useful. His shooting is Medicore for a MC, and you really want precog, which is only a 1/6 chance to get. He also needs to be loaded up with 50 points of gifts. He just doesn't seem to do anything well, that the other GDs can't do better.

I'd rather spend the points on a GUO myself. Between two greater gifts, and three levels of biomancy, you up his viability quite a bit, and with all of that, he comes in cheaper than a lvl 3 LOC with two gifts. Yes, he is the slowest of the GDs, but he is incredibly hard to shift. So far, he has been incredible in my games against him, even against poison weapons.



Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 05:32:01


Post by: TzeentchNet


Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Uh.huh sure you have. Forgive me for being incredulous since I can say and claim the exact same thing and you'd wouldn't be able to disprove it any more than I can prove/disprove your "shelf of trophies.

You'll forgive us if few people care about a handful of hardcore 40k players want to argue over who has the most pointless trophies for moving plastic army men around. Can you guys stick to the topic at hand?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 07:15:09


Post by: Puscifer


 calypso2ts wrote:
 felixcat wrote:

Three relatively prevalent builds. I'm not surprised only one of you is taking them to a tournament. They are not 'subtle'. They are random. You cannot plan for random.


You can plan for random. Gamers do it all the time. Okay, I have 24 S6 shots into their Dakka Jet - it should die, but if it does not, where do I position the rest of my units? (man it would be so...so...RANDOM if it did not go down) Where do I position the rest of my army so they can have a good target if it does/does not die, how do I plan for casualties so my assaulting unit can make it in, how do I plan for poor terrain rolls - those are all planning mechanisms to deal with randomness. The best players position themselves to take advantage of good luck while avoiding the worst impact of the bad.

Sometimes you just straight up get hosed - but that is any army. I do not think Daemons are any more random than the chance to fail 5 of 6 terminator saves - I saw this happen yesterday - and lose 200+ points in models from some sluggas.

For Daemons - I get -1 to my invulnerable save, where do I position my units - in the wide open away from cover since hey, cover is as good as my invuln? What is hard to plan for - but not impossible - is for 'tail effects' that occur when you hit the extreme side of the probability spectrum. That is why I think it is a bit silly to say, bring all Khorne so that only one warp storm result hurts you. Instead, make sure to minimize the maximum for extreme events.

In list design you can play all MSU - but on that snake eyes, do not be surprised if you lose far more models than a players with a few larger units on leadership tests - more importantly, somehow those 18 Seekers are still effective in combat after losing 2 models to instability.

 felixcat wrote:

Honestly, i would play demons if they gave warp flame skyfire. A simple fix to alleviate the worst pressure somewhat the worst scenarios we can face as demons.


With Divination Warpfire hits 11/36 of the time (which is basically BS 2 shots). You achieve about 50% more hits at their base BS 3 - but I am not sure if you really need it. It does not help against a Raven or Drake Front Armor - but those flyers cannot deny the with so you are guaranteed to get the shots. Too bad there is not a good way to grab divination in a Tzeetch dedicated unit.


I see exactly where Felix is coming from when he says you cannot prepare for random.

It's like the CSM but on a much more random scale.

You see I would be tempted to tourney them, but I'm not sure I'd be good at it. I've won two out of the three 40k I've entered and came 4th at a gt, but that was 11 years ago.

I'm starting daemons because I like the Nurgle models and I think they'll be fun to paint. I already know that they are fun to play as I tested the Nurgle force. Probably the most fun I've had in 40k for a long time.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 14:51:04


Post by: mercer


Puscifer wrote:Interesting write up on the Beasts.

I've tested them in big units (5+) and the have done pretty well. The fact they are good charge blockers is a total bonus, but the fact you are rolling 5d6+5 for poisoned attacks is pretty good when that averages out at roughly 30 attacks on the charge with 20 wounds per unit.

Providing moving cover for the rest of the army is always welcomed too.


I am looking to use some Beasts. How they been doing over all?

GiraffeX wrote:Thanks for the review mercer I found it really informative and an easy read.

Great for those that dont have the codex yet, I really want to try a Slaanesh force now, I was going to do mono khorne but I'm not so sure now after reading your review of the bloodletters.


Glad you enjoyed it. Still got more to add yet.

phantommaster wrote:Nice review there. But my problem with the new codex is that taking a single God is no longer competitive, as stated all the units interact with each other, my 3000pts of pure Khorne are now pretty weak.

Also could you please confirm that the Bloodcrushers lost T5? I flicked through the other day and thought it was S5 they lost.


I don't think a single god was competitive in the previous codex to be honest.

Redbeard wrote:

Do you know what a force multiplier is? It doesn't mean he unlocks a different type of selection for a unit. That's unlocking.

A force multiplier is something that makes models around it better. For example, a Blood Angel Sanquinary Priest is a force multiplier - he gives everyone near him FNP. An ork mek with a forcefield grants a 5+ cover save to all units near him. That's a force multiplier. A bloodthirster, as kick-ass as it may be, is not a force multiplier, it's simply a powerful piece.

Really, if you're going to write reviews, do some basic research on terminology.


Chill out, dude. So what I got the word wrong. Come down from your high horse.

ers126 wrote:Thanks mercer for starting the thread. We have diverged a bit onto what armies are good/bad against demons so back to topic - reviewing the new codex.

My 2cents:
Chariots can be mean. Tzeentch chariot (regular or Herald) can take an ap2 etherblade. That makes for nasty sweep attacks.

Furies have potential. So cheap. LD2 can be overcome by adding a Herald (Disc, Steed, or Jugger to keep up).

Demon psychic powers are generally weak compared to the BRB. Kinda surprised there aren't a few gems in here.

Fiends lost Hit & Run.. that makes me sad.

Demons of Slaanesh have Rending. (the demons themselves, not rending claws like before). Does this mean ranged attacks also get Rending?

A few beefs.
GW - if you insist on reusing the names for gifts/power we all know and love from past editions, don't make it completely different and unrelated to said gift/power from before. eg, Pavane, Acquiesence, Lash, Bolt of Change, Soporific Musk, etc. Make up a new name.

Blue Horror tokens that cause S2 AP- hits? Really? Let's all agree to just ignore this waste of time. There's enough special rules/effects/counters to keep track of already. If you wanted to bring back Blue horrors then just make Pink horrors split into 2 blue horrors like they once did. Bonus to GW: We all have to buy more models.


I have been thinking of a greater blade on a Herald but I am not sure. I cannot remember their profile, but are they better in combat now compared to previously? Sweep attacks indeed.

I did take a long look at the Furies, but I think they wil snuff it to daemonic instability tests. I guess play tests will tell.

Rending only works with close combat attacks as per brb.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
 labmouse42 wrote:
 felixcat wrote:
Do I sound whiney? I'm not really that person. But I see the codex and cannot wonder what GW was thinking. Make Xenos unplayable?
That's funny. I was just listening to the 11th company podcast and every one on the podcast was saying that Xenos are the only armies to play right now. They also all said the daemon codex was very good.

Isn't it funny how the grass is always greener under the other armies boots?


I am also loving xenos at the moment too. Refreshing from Imperium/power armour armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lordofthegophers wrote:
I stopped reading after you gave the Lord of Change 5/10.


Wow, you raged quite because you do not agree with my ratings? I said at the beginning this is MY opinion and maybe different to yours. You shouldn't stop reading just because I gave something a low reading which you do not agree with.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 15:02:31


Post by: Redbeard


 mercer wrote:

I don't think a single god was competitive in the previous codex to be honest.


It all depends on at what point during the last codex's time you're talking about. Mono-Khorne and Mono-Nurgle both did reasonably well before mech-spam started taking over. Mono-tzeentch did especially well after WD dropped.


Chill out, dude. So what I got the word wrong. Come down from your high horse.


When you're writing a review, the wrong word pretty much undermines the point of the review. What's more, it's not just a wrong word, it's an entirely wrong concept, which kind of calls into question the rest of your analysis. If you don't know the difference between a Force Multiplier and a Hammer, what else are you getting wrong?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 15:37:20


Post by: labmouse42


 mercer wrote:
Wow, you raged quite because you do not agree with my ratings? I said at the beginning this is MY opinion and maybe different to yours. You shouldn't stop reading just because I gave something a low reading which you do not agree with.
Take it all with a grain of salt man.
If Jesus himself were to post on this forum, people would po-po on him for not showing up earlier.
Nothing happens on the internet without someone saying "that sucks". Thanks for putting the effort into thinking about the CD codex and bringing forth productive conversation about it.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 20:18:31


Post by: ers126



I did take a long look at the Furies, but I think they wil snuff it to daemonic instability tests. I guess play tests will tell.


Adding a herald should fix that. Instability is a leadership so should use the highest LD in the unit. And gives them some punch.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 20:23:57


Post by: Continuity


How viable is a Lord of Change with the Grimoire as ally? If the grimoire does what I think it does he's getting a 3++ on a 3+ every turn with no penalties if he fails, able to do fly-by divination buffs to friendlies and butchers most units on the ground


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 21:04:08


Post by: felixcat



Lord of Change is the big daddy pimp stick beater of the codex. Unfortunately he is also 305 points tricked out. As your own HQ I would use him above any other GD. In an allied detachmemnt? Not sure. Depends who you allying with. CSM have their own DPs. I would use him with IG.

I fully intend to play demons since I own enough models despite all my comments but I'm going to add allies to my list. At this point I'm favoring CSM to get a Heldrake and a large squad of cultists with a dark apostle (Tzeentch). I think they would work with IG as well using a platoon and Vendettas - not original but ...


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 21:36:20


Post by: keltikhoa


Continuity wrote:
How viable is a Lord of Change with the Grimoire as ally? If the grimoire does what I think it does he's getting a 3++ on a 3+ every turn with no penalties if he fails, able to do fly-by divination buffs to friendlies and butchers most units on the ground


the grimoire cant be used on the guy holding it, You either buff (chance to debuff) one of your "daemon" units or you debuff an enemy "daemon" unit. If you took a LoC with the grimoire you would only be buffing whatever else you brought in as allies.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 21:40:55


Post by: Exergy


 keltikhoa wrote:
Continuity wrote:
How viable is a Lord of Change with the Grimoire as ally? If the grimoire does what I think it does he's getting a 3++ on a 3+ every turn with no penalties if he fails, able to do fly-by divination buffs to friendlies and butchers most units on the ground


the grimoire cant be used on the guy holding it, You either buff (chance to debuff) one of your "daemon" units or you debuff an enemy "daemon" unit. If you took a LoC with the grimoire you would only be buffing whatever else you brought in as allies.


or potentially CSM daemon allies


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 21:44:06


Post by: Dawnofthedoug


The LOC is also great because he can take the staff, effecitively making him the only GD with st 8, with rerolls since he should have prescience.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 22:00:24


Post by: Continuity


 keltikhoa wrote:
Continuity wrote:
How viable is a Lord of Change with the Grimoire as ally? If the grimoire does what I think it does he's getting a 3++ on a 3+ every turn with no penalties if he fails, able to do fly-by divination buffs to friendlies and butchers most units on the ground


the grimoire cant be used on the guy holding it, You either buff (chance to debuff) one of your "daemon" units or you debuff an enemy "daemon" unit. If you took a LoC with the grimoire you would only be buffing whatever else you brought in as allies.


Balls, I read the first half of the rules and missed the second half.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/11 22:33:28


Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis


Dawnofthedoug wrote:
The LOC is also great because he can take the staff, effecitively making him the only GD with st 8, with rerolls since he should have prescience.


Not quite, Bloodthrister with Greater Etherblade will also be S8, but only on the charge, Though considering how many attacks he has, that should be more than enough.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/12 12:01:43


Post by: mercer


Redbeard wrote:

It all depends on at what point during the last codex's time you're talking about. Mono-Khorne and Mono-Nurgle both did reasonably well before mech-spam started taking over. Mono-tzeentch did especially well after WD dropped.


I started Daemons just before the W.D codex dropped. TBH I started Daemons as was looking to use them for Fantasy. I was just told that mono gods builds wasn't that good.

labmouse42 wrote:
 mercer wrote:
Wow, you raged quite because you do not agree with my ratings? I said at the beginning this is MY opinion and maybe different to yours. You shouldn't stop reading just because I gave something a low reading which you do not agree with.
Take it all with a grain of salt man.
If Jesus himself were to post on this forum, people would po-po on him for not showing up earlier.
Nothing happens on the internet without someone saying "that sucks". Thanks for putting the effort into thinking about the CD codex and bringing forth productive conversation about it.


I'll be honest, I don't lose sleep over nobodies over the internet .

Fast attack added, check it out

ers126 wrote:

I did take a long look at the Furies, but I think they wil snuff it to daemonic instability tests. I guess play tests will tell.


Adding a herald should fix that. Instability is a leadership so should use the highest LD in the unit. And gives them some punch.


Fair point


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/12 12:02:00


Post by: labmouse42


I think your selling seekers a little bit short in your review.
While they are much more fragile than Khorne dogs, they are a lot more killy. Having rending attacks means that, unlike the korne dogs, they won't bounce off a 3+ save.

Also, one of the good thing of Khorne dogs is they can be a great delivery system for a herald on a jugg. One or two of those can do a lot of killing.

Edit : I've not tried either yet, so my thoughts are all theoryhammer. Someone who has played them both can prob give more insight.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/12 12:02:11


Post by: mercer


Fast Attack has been added.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/12 12:40:33


Post by: sudojoe


From what I gathered on reading the HQ's, Lord of change can't really fire off a 4d6 shot and cast prescience on himself and debuff the enemy as he only has 3 warp charges. You'll have to get additional heralds or something to buff him and debuff the enemy. The way your review has it written it seems like he can get 4d6 and debuff and buff himself which I think is very different in how he's actually played.

Not quite a one man nuke party but does require support.

Any thoughts on the named characters at all? I'm personally really liking skarbrand. I've run him before next to a bunch of slanesh seekers before and they just about evaporate enemy troops/infantry. Skarbrand himself can also wreck vehicles pretty easily so it's been pretty fun to throw around. Biggest problem I have with him now is that it's really hard to keep up with seekers going at top speeds.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/12 13:00:15


Post by: Sasori


I think taking the banner on the Plague Drones is a bad idea, they are much better off with the Rot Probosces. Mann did the math in another thread, but it pretty much increases their chances to wound MEQ from 50% to something like 89%.

I am also a fan of Screamers, and think you would be better off using your regular attacks on a charge, and using the Lamprey's bite in subsequent combat rounds. They also still have the Slashing attack, which is very useful.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/12 14:18:52


Post by: mercer


sudojoe wrote:From what I gathered on reading the HQ's, Lord of change can't really fire off a 4d6 shot and cast prescience on himself and debuff the enemy as he only has 3 warp charges. You'll have to get additional heralds or something to buff him and debuff the enemy. The way your review has it written it seems like he can get 4d6 and debuff and buff himself which I think is very different in how he's actually played.

Not quite a one man nuke party but does require support.

Any thoughts on the named characters at all? I'm personally really liking skarbrand. I've run him before next to a bunch of slanesh seekers before and they just about evaporate enemy troops/infantry. Skarbrand himself can also wreck vehicles pretty easily so it's been pretty fun to throw around. Biggest problem I have with him now is that it's really hard to keep up with seekers going at top speeds.


I am not sure where you're getting your info from as I never mentioned anything like that. I just said the powers which can be used and which disciplines from the rulebook.

I will be doing named characters tomorrow.

Sasori wrote:I think taking the banner on the Plague Drones is a bad idea, they are much better off with the Rot Probosces. Mann did the math in another thread, but it pretty much increases their chances to wound MEQ from 50% to something like 89%.

I am also a fan of Screamers, and think you would be better off using your regular attacks on a charge, and using the Lamprey's bite in subsequent combat rounds. They also still have the Slashing attack, which is very useful.


Sounds awesome .

I would also do the same with the Screamers, use the lamprey bite to finish off the enemy unit in the opponent's assault phase. The slashing attack hasn't changed from the W.D update so I didn't see the point in mentioning something which people would more than likely know about.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/12 14:26:56


Post by: labmouse42


Pardon the question, but don't plague drones already wound MEQ 75% of the time?
They are STR 4, and have the 4+ poisoned plaguesword.

Provided they are not facing STR 10 weapons, they are extremely tough. At 14 points a wound/attack they are between seekers and khorne dogs in price per wound. They have T5 which makes them tough. What they fall behind is the choppa per point. At 14 points per attack, they are more expensive than khorne dogs, and much more so than seekers (who are 4 points per attack)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sasori wrote:
I am also a fan of Screamers, and think you would be better off using your regular attacks on a charge, and using the Lamprey's bite in subsequent combat rounds. They also still have the Slashing attack, which is very useful.
Yea, the slashing attack is awesome. Since it does not need to roll 'to hit' its better than bolters. The only drawback is that you have to go over the unit you want to strike, so you need a safe spot to land.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/12 14:50:12


Post by: Exergy


 mercer wrote:
Screamers of Tzeentch



Like the Flamers, Screamers took the nerf bat hard and were brought all the way down to china town. While they did need reigning in, I feel they have gone from one extreme to the other.

Screamers have a slashing attack rule which works exactly the same as before and like Dark Eldar Reavers slash attack. The lamprey's bite is still S5 AP2 armourbane however you substitute ALL attacks for ONE lamprey's bite attack.

Here's a little mathammer how Screamers will work against Space Marines now:

6 x Screamers charge 10 x Tactical Marines. Marines overwatch with 20 shots - hit with 3 - wound with 2 - 1 failed invulnerable save.

Screamers get 24 attacks - hit with 12 - wound with 6 - 2 dead Tactical Marines.

Marine are I4 so strike at the same time; they will get 11 attacks - hit with 7 - wound with 4 - 3 failed saves

Lets do the same but try lamprey's bite instead:

Screamers get 6 attacks (will they get charge attacks with lamprey's bite?) - hit with 3 - kill 2 Tactical Marines.

So combat with lamprey's bite is the same with normal attacks when fighting against Space Marines. Of course against xenos or anything not in power armour or better is going to be taking the pain. Also Screamers will still chew up vehicles or basic transports, though this is going to be a close call as they will only hit 4 times.

Summary

While Screamers have taken a beating with the nerf bat they are still not that bad; you just need to be more selective with them and they are no longer a point and click unit. What Screamers are best used for is tackling armour without transport ability and decking camping units or small weak troop numbers.

Consider Screamers in support of fast moving HQs, Bloodcrushers, Fiends and Daemonettes.

Rating: 7/10



arent screamers jetbikes and thus entitled to a HoW hits. 6 attacking will get 6 hits 3 wounds and 1 dead marine which helps a little.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/12 15:14:03


Post by: mercer


Very good point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 labmouse42 wrote:
Pardon the question, but don't plague drones already wound MEQ 75% of the time?
They are STR 4, and have the 4+ poisoned plaguesword.

Provided they are not facing STR 10 weapons, they are extremely tough. At 14 points a wound/attack they are between seekers and khorne dogs in price per wound. They have T5 which makes them tough. What they fall behind is the choppa per point. At 14 points per attack, they are more expensive than khorne dogs, and much more so than seekers (who are 4 points per attack)




Very good point. I didn't even do some mathshammer in my article, I should really do that and also work it out with the rot.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/14 13:58:54


Post by: pretre


Thanks for the review! Don't forget the SC...


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/14 14:41:29


Post by: mercer


Special characters have now been added. I will warn you, I am not a fan of special characters in general and my opinion maybe biased.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/14 14:45:25


Post by: pretre


Fateweaver has dropped in points but is also very different and no longer acts as a Daemon army wide survival tool.


Keep in mind his Warlord Trait. His reroll of one or both dice on the WS table allows you to use it offensively rather than just hoping.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/14 14:47:23


Post by: Exergy


 mercer wrote:
Special characters have now been added. I will warn you, I am not a fan of special characters in general and my opinion maybe biased.


update the formating if you can
add some color to seperate sections


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/15 00:19:09


Post by: Watchersinthedark


Did I miss the part about the Heralds taking 4 models for 1 HQ slot? Don't think that got mentioned, which really kinda makes Heralds way more bad ass. Just being able to put a Herald in pretty much each unit you'd be taking is a massive benefit. Makes guys like Changeling way more comparable.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/15 02:27:33


Post by: Barrywise


Best use I can think for Skarbrand is to deepstrike him in when your CC army gets up close to your opponent, preferably in combo with a bunch of Slaneesh Daemons who would hit first or in conjunction with some allied Warp Talons. Now stop hold on hear me out. If you multi assault 10 Warp Talons(MoS) into two squads of 10 tac Marines you should be able to make up all your points in one turn and then continue to wreck for the rest of the game. Although unfluffy Slaneesh would do a lot better with some Khorne friends.

Also you mentioned not know what the purpose of Fateweaver was, you can do 2 things with him, both involving his staff. the first is being able to reroll on the warp storm with his staff FIRST to reroll a bad die otherwise if both are bad, use his warlord trait to reroll both of them, then if you get a halfway decent roll with his staff you can stop there or use his trait to try and go for the 11 or 12.
-The other use for him would then be to spray out a considerable amount of damage with his psychic powers and buff him to a 2+ with the grimoire, rerolling if you don't succeed

Just my 2 cents
-Barry


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/15 02:56:59


Post by: pretre


You can only reroll on the table once. You can never reroll a reroll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can only reroll on the table once. You can never reroll a reroll.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/15 18:09:08


Post by: Azreal13


Not to mention his staff specifically says you can't reroll any other dice in a batch if you choose to reroll one of them with it.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/15 18:29:56


Post by: DAaddict


They are costly but there are two ways a Demon Prince can be useful.

IF you take a greater Demon, they become heavy choices... That is okay but more costly than soulgrinders...

The one I looked at was giving it the Eternal Blade.

+1 S +D3 to WS, I and A and AP 2 because it is on a Demon Prince... Add to that mark traits and/or psychic abilities and you could have a flexible or close combat monster. Not cheap but it could serve a purpose.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/15 19:00:09


Post by: Siphen


Thanks for the in-depth summaries!

I'd still like to argue that Seekers deserve a much higher rating. Consider Screamers, which were rated 7/10 (accurate, imo).

Take a look at 6 Screamers vs 12 Seekers:

- The Seekers are slightly cheaper
- Both units have the same number of wounds with the same save (although the screamers can reroll 1's, that doesn't make a huge difference)

- Against MEQ, the Screamers will kill 3 on average. The Seekers will kill 8.
- Against TEQ, the Screamers will kill 2 on average. The Seekers will kill 5.
- Against GEQ, the Screamers will kill 10. The Seekers will kill 16.

So...slightly cheaper with roughly double the damage output. The Seekers also have Fleet, you can take larger squads, they're about as effective against most vehicles (AV 10). They're not quite as fast as the Screamers, but they're still fast enough to charge anything on turn 2 (move 12", run 10-12", move 12", assault 9"+).
They can strike before MEQ, so they'll take even less damage in combat.
They can easily bring down Toughness 8 and 9 MC's.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/16 19:20:05


Post by: Puscifer


Finally someone agrees with me on Skarbrand.

Personally I think he is better than a Thirster as he buffs the army to insane levels on some troops... Daemonettes in particular.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wouldn't ds him though. The buffs are too good to ignore.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/17 17:18:08


Post by: Barrywise


Alright I will admit I'm wrong on Fateweaver, that was my bad for not reading it fully.

@Puscifer the one problem that I have with Skarbrand is that he's not overly tough and the best use of his abilities would be with Daemonettes who are not very tough, thus the use of HoT and HoS to give cover saves via divination and move through cover via Loci is going to be key. So yes it'd be preferred to start him on the board I still think DS-ing him in is the safest way. Although against GK I agree with you


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/18 13:45:27


Post by: mercer


Exergy wrote:
 mercer wrote:
Special characters have now been added. I will warn you, I am not a fan of special characters in general and my opinion maybe biased.


update the formating if you can
add some color to seperate sections


Will do.

Watchersinthedark wrote:Did I miss the part about the Heralds taking 4 models for 1 HQ slot? Don't think that got mentioned, which really kinda makes Heralds way more bad ass. Just being able to put a Herald in pretty much each unit you'd be taking is a massive benefit. Makes guys like Changeling way more comparable.


I thought it maybe common knowledge, but you make a good point - I'll add this.

Siphen wrote:Thanks for the in-depth summaries!

I'd still like to argue that Seekers deserve a much higher rating. Consider Screamers, which were rated 7/10 (accurate, imo).

Take a look at 6 Screamers vs 12 Seekers:

- The Seekers are slightly cheaper
- Both units have the same number of wounds with the same save (although the screamers can reroll 1's, that doesn't make a huge difference)

- Against MEQ, the Screamers will kill 3 on average. The Seekers will kill 8.
- Against TEQ, the Screamers will kill 2 on average. The Seekers will kill 5.
- Against GEQ, the Screamers will kill 10. The Seekers will kill 16.

So...slightly cheaper with roughly double the damage output. The Seekers also have Fleet, you can take larger squads, they're about as effective against most vehicles (AV 10). They're not quite as fast as the Screamers, but they're still fast enough to charge anything on turn 2 (move 12", run 10-12", move 12", assault 9"+).
They can strike before MEQ, so they'll take even less damage in combat.
They can easily bring down Toughness 8 and 9 MC's.


Glad you enjoyed the review.

Meh, maybe I don't like Seekers? I think it is that single wound a T3, who knows!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shoehorned in the heavy support as I totally forgot to add it, doh!

Added big colourful bold headers for the FoC break down - makes it easier to find.

Enjoy!


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 00:50:13


Post by: calypso2ts


I think you are missing a few interesting points on the Khorne Skullcannon. I love Soul Grinders - but the comparison between them is a bit lopsided.

The cheapest Grinder with Phlegm comes in at 50+ more points. Also, the weapons are...

BS 3, S8 AP 3 vs BS 5, S8 AP 5 Ignores cover

Edit: I recognize the grinder gets 3 at S7 as well - looking only at the blasts for now...

They serve very different purposes. You want to clear out one of those ever present Aegis lines with 40 Guardsmen behind them? The Grinder is terrible for that. The Skull Cannon though will dig units out of cover - and it can probably get a 4+ from your own Aegis line that a Grinder cannot. On top of that, getting ride of that I1 modifier from terrain is a nice bonus so you can clear a combat zone and avoid return damage.

Against MEQ behind an Aegis - the Grinder is probably still a little better - but the differential between a 4+ and 3+ is 25% less wounds going through. That extra 2" of BS might just make up for that.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 01:13:48


Post by: Wingeds


So for a nurgle themed CSM army would a few plague bearers + herald and maybe some Drones be a worthy investment? The jet infantry looks to be interesting and add some depth to an allied force.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 01:20:05


Post by: timetowaste85


 calypso2ts wrote:
I think you are missing a few interesting points on the Khorne Skullcannon. I love Soul Grinders - but the comparison between them is a bit lopsided.

The cheapest Grinder with Phlegm comes in at 50+ more points. Also, the weapons are...

BS 3, S8 AP 3 vs BS 5, S8 AP 5 Ignores cover

Edit: I recognize the grinder gets 3 at S7 as well - looking only at the blasts for now...

They serve very different purposes. You want to clear out one of those ever present Aegis lines with 40 Guardsmen behind them? The Grinder is terrible for that. The Skull Cannon though will dig units out of cover - and it can probably get a 4+ from your own Aegis line that a Grinder cannot. On top of that, getting ride of that I1 modifier from terrain is a nice bonus so you can clear a combat zone and avoid return damage.

Against MEQ behind an Aegis - the Grinder is probably still a little better - but the differential between a 4+ and 3+ is 25% less wounds going through. That extra 2" of BS might just make up for that.


Eh, I think it is possible to get a Grinder to receive the cover bonus. I just readjusted the legs of my Nurgle Grinder (perfectly legal to do, as they're movable and all the legs are in the correct holes-no conversions needed) and it stands an inch and a half SHORTER than my Slaanesh Grinder. How tall does the ADL stand? Because the lowest point of my NG's torso is half an inch above the table. If the AGL is ~2", I have half of mine able to be in cover from it. And, no, that is not an exaggeration. It CAN and DOES get that low, without any conversion needed. I expect to see lots of Nurgle Grinders having their legs readjusted. I also have to remove the sword from my NG...


Just measured, and my Nurgle Grinder stands just over 4" tall.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 01:50:48


Post by: calypso2ts


How is lowering the SG legs such that it can fit behind an Aegis (still do not think you can cover 25% of its front facing surface area) not modeling for advantage?

Either way, the cover save on the grinder is secondary to the discussion of the blasts.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 03:06:03


Post by: timetowaste85


Because the legs are on ball joints-who has the right to tell you what the correct positioning is? I could see making a Nurgle slug style torso as MFA, as you wouldn't need the legs, but this way uses all the correct parts in all the correct places. *shrug*


On topic, I like most of the review and appreciate it, but there have been a couple things I didn't agree on-personal taste and all.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 09:58:35


Post by: Breng77


NOt seeing how a model raised 1" above the table that is as tall as the grinder is getting cover off an aegis.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 10:43:08


Post by: labmouse42


 timetowaste85 wrote:
Eh, I think it is possible to get a Grinder to receive the cover bonus. I just readjusted the legs of my Nurgle Grinder (perfectly legal to do, as they're movable and all the legs are in the correct holes-no conversions needed) and it stands an inch and a half SHORTER than my Slaanesh Grinder. How tall does the ADL stand? Because the lowest point of my NG's torso is half an inch above the table. If the AGL is ~2", I have half of mine able to be in cover from it. And, no, that is not an exaggeration. It CAN and DOES get that low, without any conversion needed. I expect to see lots of Nurgle Grinders having their legs readjusted. I also have to remove the sword from my NG...

Just measured, and my Nurgle Grinder stands just over 4" tall.
I took a pic of my soulgrinder to see, and the only way I can see a soul grinder getting cover from an aegis is if it slipped and landed in its metal arse. As you can see in this pic, my soulgrinder is exactly 4" tall.

Maybe you can figure out a way to get the cover, but I am not sure its possible.



Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 14:55:34


Post by: mercer


 calypso2ts wrote:
I think you are missing a few interesting points on the Khorne Skullcannon. I love Soul Grinders - but the comparison between them is a bit lopsided.

The cheapest Grinder with Phlegm comes in at 50+ more points. Also, the weapons are...

BS 3, S8 AP 3 vs BS 5, S8 AP 5 Ignores cover

Edit: I recognize the grinder gets 3 at S7 as well - looking only at the blasts for now...

They serve very different purposes. You want to clear out one of those ever present Aegis lines with 40 Guardsmen behind them? The Grinder is terrible for that. The Skull Cannon though will dig units out of cover - and it can probably get a 4+ from your own Aegis line that a Grinder cannot. On top of that, getting ride of that I1 modifier from terrain is a nice bonus so you can clear a combat zone and avoid return damage.



I never did a comparsion between them. I did mention about those things you said about the Skull Cannon.

Also a Soul Grinder won't get cover from behind an aegis. Tried it before and no way is that 25% and my Grinders are low, about an 1" off the deck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 timetowaste85 wrote:



On topic, I like most of the review and appreciate it, but there have been a couple things I didn't agree on-personal taste and all.


Glad to hear it and yes, as always things are someone's opinions and you may not agree with mine in this review, which is perfectly fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 labmouse42 wrote:
I took a pic of my soulgrinder to see, and the only way I can see a soul grinder getting cover from an aegis is if it slipped and landed in its metal arse. As you can see in this pic, my soulgrinder is exactly 4" tall.

Maybe you can figure out a way to get the cover, but I am not sure its possible.



Soul Grinder is way taller than 4". Remember you have the Grinder in the back ground and things further away are always smaller, like you finger can cover the tv screen at a distance. The Soul Grinder is more like 5" tall.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 15:43:18


Post by: Dundas



On the theme of Soulgrinder and cover, I assume it gets cover from the Plague Dones (big wings!)? And the drones in turn getting cover from any unit in front of it?

So you can have the SG at the back, a unit of Drones front and sides and a screening wall of PBs/ Beasts/ Nurglings whatever in front. It wouldn't move fast, but potentially a good way to escort a SG up the field with a 2+ save whilst it spits at people before laying in some serious CC with both it and the drones towards the end of the game?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 16:09:41


Post by: mercer


I personally couldn't say as I haven't seen how big Plague Drones are. Comparing them to photos I would say yet, but I am not 100% sure.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 17:59:58


Post by: trollapan


I have played just one game with the new dex and i included both a nurgle Soul grinder with phlegm and a Skull cannon.

I played against a SW/IG army with a 40 man blobb.

The soulgrinder stood back hiding behind cover in my deployment zone and the skull cannon roamed around and shot at well everything.

My Skull cannon drove around shooting and assulting everything in site. Not sure how the assult thing works but thats for another thread to
discuss.
Love the manouvrebility of the machine.

The thing i notised was:

* The soulgrinder will get heavily pounded with enemy fire.. Thats a fact.. The model is to big to hide out of site.
High strenght big blast low ap is awesome but you get cover saves against it.
Skyfire shots feels like a bonus


* The Skull cannon is awesome!!! ok only armour 12,12,10 but still with the 5+ invo save and just 125 pts I love it.
Long range, big blast, high strenght and the most important thing NO COVER SAVE.
And when fielding a cc army the Skull Cannons is a must. Just so you can shoot at a unit in cover and every unit charging
that unit counts as having offensive grenades/frag grenades.

I will be running 2 cannons and 1 tzeentch Soulgrinder with pghlegm.
Why tzeentch? Because its the least expencive one and you get to reroll saves of 1 is why :p

thats my 5 cents




Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 21:55:48


Post by: WhiteWolf01


Wondering if anyone has done this. But concerning the Slaanesh chariot cavalcade, one could use the grimoire on them I believe, correct?

If so, then' you've given it a better longevity. Take one with a herald (psychics and rewards included) and then two other exalted chariots and you could have one heck of a nasty unit.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 22:36:55


Post by: Barrywise


why stop at 3 take the full 13 if you so desire, add some hellflayers if needed and go to town


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/19 22:47:58


Post by: Razerous


To compliment vehicle saturation of Soul Grinder whilst including some fast attack, a pair of seeker chariots seem quite potent for the cost. 2-4D6 str4 rending hits - pretty good?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/20 00:53:37


Post by: WhiteWolf01


Barrywise wrote:
why stop at 3 take the full 13 if you so desire, add some hellflayers if needed and go to town


No doubt, though I believe you can only grimoire one unit at a time.


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/20 01:00:19


Post by: Barrywise


ok true, also is it 1D6 extra hits for each hull point because i believe that the rules state something along the lines of chariots cause S4 d6 HoW attacks when charging and then they have the rule that causes S4 d6 (rending because it's daemon of slaneesh) for each hullpoint it has, so would it actually be 3d6 for seeker and 5d6 for exalted?


Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support! @ 2013/03/20 02:44:17


Post by: Razerous


Barrywise wrote:
ok true, also is it 1D6 extra hits for each hull point because i believe that the rules state something along the lines of chariots cause S4 d6 HoW attacks when charging and then they have the rule that causes S4 d6 (rending because it's daemon of slaneesh) for each hullpoint it has, so would it actually be 3d6 for seeker and 5d6 for exalted?
It is HoW = hull points. HP X d6 Str4 attacks that automatically hit, as per the HoW rule. They also have rending.

Still, pretty baller. 57.5% of a cheap MoT Soul Grinder. Same hull points, AV11, Fast. Killy.