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Post by: Phragonist
I've read on here that many tournaments ban Teclis. We are playing an escalation league at my FLGS and a friend of mine playing high elves said "I'm going to bring Teclis at 2000 points lolol". I do not want this to happen. What points should I make to the people in charge at the FLGS to get Teclis banned? I don't want to be like "TECLIS OH PEE, BANN HIMM", I'd like to go in there with the specific reasons why he should be banned, without sounding like I'm just whining. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks
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Post by: captain collius
Open the page to his rules.
2. The gather info packets from Major Tournaments most of which have banned him.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Refer to every major tournament having him banned due to him being way over the top (which he is!) and ruining the fun for other players due to the game suddenly being extemely in favor of the HE player, given that there's no hard counter to Teclis.
One of his "arguments" will be to point at other SC that he considers too strong, but you can again point at major tournaments. Hint: the ETC bans all SC.
And in the end, the best advice is: don't play what you're not comfortable with. Talk to other players, ask them how they fell about it and if they think the same, go to the TO in a group.
Best advice in the worst case: if he is allowed to bring him, do not play him. If on a tournament, just tell the TO you surrender and go have a drink with a friend or, in the very best case, play another small game with someone else in the store and have fun. That's what the game is about. That Teclis can will stand around alone while you have fun playing an enjoyable match with a good sportsman.
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Post by: tmarichards
In a hobby that divides people across the world in many different viewpoints, often very fractiously, pretty much everyone agrees that Teclis is too cost-efficient. That alone should be a good indicator, as is the fact that he is banned at pretty much every major tournament in the world.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Experience playing against him has resulted in a very rare case of consensus accross the world which has universally labeled him as OP.
As for convincing people with specifics, just show everybody his rules and explain how stupidly powerful Ignoring the first miscast you make each turn, getting IF on every casting roll of a double, and being Lore Master. Also consider he can just hide in a unit of PG at the back of the army blasting away with magic.
He basically ignores all the bad stuff at magic while making the good stuff even better.
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Post by: JWhex
Hopefully the Teclis issue will solve itself soon with the new HE army book.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Hopefully so.
Right now, everyone who brings Teclis to the table is ruining the game for his opponent on purpose - which is, to me, an intolerable behavior and truly shows how much you care about sportsmanship. I let our local HE player try him in a 2.5k game and he agreed that he needs to be toned down. It just isn't fun if a mage can spam 6ths without negative consequences. At the very least, he should always suffer a miscast with every doubles, not just 6s.
He is rightfully banned from all comp matches. The sooner he, in his current iteration, is removed from the game, the better.
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Post by: DukeRustfield
His only remote counterpart was Khairos. Who I never even considered nearly as bad because he was a monster with poo stats.
But in the new DoC book, they even nerfed the hell out of him.
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Post by: jonolikespie
If you don't want to come off like someone whining (not saying calling Teclis OP is whining) maybe instead of saying 'no Teclis' you should suggest fixing Teclis. In my area he isn't banned but his special rules are changes to that he only ignores the first miscast per game, or keeps first each turn but miscasts on any double.
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Post by: Tiarna Fuilteach
In some tournaments in Ireland where SC's aren't outright banned there are nasty (-1 VP) and nice (+1 VP) systems whereas teclis for instance is +4 nasty points so even if you 20 nil someone then you only get 16 VP's for it and your opponent gets 4, it basically allows players to bring all the filth they want but they'll be punished for it
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Post by: Necroshea
Tell your friend to not be an arse instead of going behind his back to the TO. If he's worth the title of friend surely he'll understand.
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Post by: Amaya
I would just recommend a ban of all SCs with the exception of those that alter your force orginisation, ie Troll King allowing Trolls as core and similar cases.
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Post by: jonolikespie
 Amaya wrote:I would just recommend a ban of all SCs with the exception of those that alter your force orginisation, ie Troll King allowing Trolls as core and similar cases.
I think a better way to do it is to ban all SCs not from the current edition. THat's the problem with Teclis, he was built to be a great caster in an edition where magic was very different, as the edition and the magic phase changed he became stupidly broken. Caster SCs from this edition are perfectly fine.
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Post by: captain collius
 jonolikespie wrote: Amaya wrote:I would just recommend a ban of all SCs with the exception of those that alter your force orginisation, ie Troll King allowing Trolls as core and similar cases.
I think a better way to do it is to ban all SCs not from the current edition. THat's the problem with Teclis, he was built to be a great caster in an edition where magic was very different, as the edition and the magic phase changed he became stupidly broken. Caster SCs from this edition are perfectly fine.
Yeah also Combat SC's from 7th also tend towards not being as useful. Kroq-gar, Tyrion, Eltharion
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
Tell him he can use Teclis, but he can only use high magic.
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Post by: Krellnus
Attention everyone in the escalation league, I am not confident in my ability to think of anymore than basic tactics in my games leading to my request for a house rule that Teclis be banned because I as an individual refuse to innovate my tactics to combat this threat, all those in favour, say aye.
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Post by: jonolikespie
 Krellnus wrote:Attention everyone in the escalation league, I am not confident in my ability to think of anymore than basic tactics in my games leading to my request for a house rule that Teclis be banned because I as an individual refuse to innovate my tactics to combat this threat, all those in favour, say aye.
...
No. If there is 1 thing all fantasy players can agree on it's that a character who can be loremaster of whatever he feels like at the time, IF on any doubles and ignores the first miscast every turn is broken.
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Post by: Krellnus
And what? Is so vulnerable he needs to be in a unit that totals nearly 800 points just to last past turn 1? I would hardly call that anything near overpowered.
FYI its not IF on any double, its IF on any double provided he meets the casting requirement of the spell.
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Post by: Gorbad
Krellnus wrote:And what? Is so vulnerable he needs to be in a unit that totals nearly 800 points just to last past turn 1? I would hardly call that anything near overpowered.
FYI its not IF on any double, its IF on any double provided he meets the casting requirement of the spell.
800pts that can more or less wipe your 2500pts army and that's not really the best case scenario.
I'd go with the hint by someone above me and just surrender before deployment and try to get a friendly game till the next opponent has finished his game and then play on.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Where has 800 points come from? When I see Teclis run it is in a unit of 20 arches, which is about 220-250 points, and he still ruins thing.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Krellnus wrote:Attention everyone in the escalation league, I am not confident in my ability to think of anymore than basic tactics in my games leading to my request for a house rule that Teclis be banned because I as an individual refuse to innovate my tactics to combat this threat, all those in favour, say aye.
Attention comp layers, Krellnus is here to give you a lecture on how to play WHFB. Teclis is overpowered. Period. It's the consensus of all WHFB players with the slightest idea of balance. Period. Fighting Teclis requires no new tactic, as he cannot be beaten in the magic phase and there is no reliable hard counter to him. As said above, if your TO wants to ruin the game for everyone but the HE player, let him to do so. Forfeit at start, give your opponent 0 fairness points and play an actual game with another person in the store. Or have a drink. Or go have lunch / dinner.
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Post by: Krellnus
jonolikespie wrote:Where has 800 points come from? When I see Teclis run it is in a unit of 20 arches, which is about 220-250 points, and he still ruins thing.
Teclis
Noble with Banner of the World Dragon
20+ Phoenix guard with full command and the power dice banner
Additional character to displace teclis from the front rank in combat/take challenges.
 Sigvatr wrote: Krellnus is here to give you a lecture on how to play WHFB.
Says the guy who pushes comp in every other post....
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Post by: jonolikespie
Krellnus wrote: jonolikespie wrote:Where has 800 points come from? When I see Teclis run it is in a unit of 20 arches, which is about 220-250 points, and he still ruins thing.
Teclis
Noble with Banner of the World Dragon
20+ Phoenix guard with full command and the power dice banner
Additional character to displace teclis from the front rank in combat/take challenges.
That's just wasteful and isn't NEEDED. A 220 point unit of archers is all you NEED keep Teclis alive.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
jonolikespie wrote: Krellnus wrote: jonolikespie wrote:Where has 800 points come from? When I see Teclis run it is in a unit of 20 arches, which is about 220-250 points, and he still ruins thing.
Teclis
Noble with Banner of the World Dragon
20+ Phoenix guard with full command and the power dice banner
Additional character to displace teclis from the front rank in combat/take challenges.
That's just wasteful and isn't NEEDED. A 220 point unit of archers is all you NEED keep Teclis alive.
The last time someone didn't take that combination they ended up losing Teclis to War-machines, repeatedly.
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Post by: Jackal
Granted some characters are better than others, but teclis is on the edge of being near impossible to counter.
With my lizards, i can decide to be an arse and run a twin slann list, now theres a problem when im still getting hit hard in the magic phase, even with both of them 
With my skaven, i just have serious problems as my bell unit tends to get hit and destroyed if i try to go magic heavy, and my units get torn to pieces at a rate which worries me, even with 300+ models in a 2.5k list.
I think the only time ive killed him was simply because he was in a small unit, and that took some shooting then skitterleaping deathmaster near by him to finish it.
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Post by: Robbknoll
Come on guys we all know whats really wrong with Teclis, his Str and Toughness stat being only 2! 
Been reading these forums for a long time and we know Teclis is a very strong character and in the essence of 8th Ed he will need to be re-evaluated, but i think we'll all agree that this topic is like flogging a dead horse ha!
On a slightly different topic, i've been to many tournaments for other games where there are clear tier list and glaringly obvious teams/characters that are better than the rest, but i would never turn around to a player and say "im not playing you because you picked the best/cheapest character", i personally would find that completely childish and a complete lack of sportsmanship. I hated playing against 40 khorne marauders with the rage banner but that didnt stop me playing nor did it stop me enjoying the game. Actually feels pretty good when you kill stuff like that haha 
But in a friendly atmosphere id see that point, maybe you dont want that kind of match or hassle, but in a tournament suck it up and play against the odds. So some people in here talk of sportsmanship but from the comments i dont see much. Ive seen football teams been destroyed 13 - 0 in world cup qualifiers with no hope of even scoring a goal before the match started. With the previous logic in mind why did they not just say we're not showing up 
So my 2 cents would be get rid of SC altogether or go with the previously mentioned nasty/nice system. the latter system i think would be kinda cool for a league in general so you can throw in all the juicy cheesy characters for fluff and have a somewhat fair end result
Let me just reiterate though, i do think the character Teclis is nuttier than a squire turd 
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Post by: DukeRustfield
jonolikespie wrote:I think a better way to do it is to ban all SCs not from the current edition. THat's the problem with Teclis, he was built to be a great caster in an edition where magic was very different, as the edition and the magic phase changed he became stupidly broken. Caster SCs from this edition are perfectly fine.
I think that's a pretty good idea. Of all the SCs in new 8th books, I can't say any scream OP. Khalida is very good, but hardly crushing. Kairos I don't think is that great anymore--certainly not nearly as good as before. Tamurkahn (chaos dwarf book) is certainly OP, but he wasn't meant to be taken except in a campaign where basically everyone is fighting him. Archaeon is a bit over-the-top I think.
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Post by: TCWarRoom
How was Fateweaver nerfed?
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Post by: captain collius
Are you trying to break things.
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Post by: HoverBoy
By the time you convince anyone to ban anything the new HE book will be out.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Teclis is a part of the HE army. It doesn't matter if he is OP, deal with it. I know it sounds cold, but its just as unsportsmen like to say i wont play you because i think i will lose then it is to take a reason that ensures the win. In a competitive scene you have to account for everything, even teclis.
I've personally never had a problem, as both times i've played him he has died by turn 3. I play wood elves and if i can beat him, you can certainly adjust to him. I used a scout noble with a sniper bow and sniper sprite, admitedly i had luck and hit with both hits every turn until he died, but it he still would of died. I take it its a competitive league, well then, get competitive.
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Post by: Sigvatr
 ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I've personally never had a problem, as both times i've played him he has died by turn 3. I play wood elves and if i can beat him, you can certainly adjust to him. I used a scout noble with a sniper bow and sniper sprite, admitedly i had luck and hit with both hits every turn until he died, but it he still would of died. I take it its a competitive league, well then, get competitive.
We're discussing Teclis when used by players who know what they're doing. If you fail to win with Teclis vs. Wood Elves, you should reconsider the decision of playing competitively. If someone uses a character that is breaking the game, as a matter of fact, he is the one not being a good sportsman. No offense, but I prefer relying on actual competitive experience / opinion e.g. ETC tournaments, not local ones where WE win vs. HE Vs. an actual opponent, with a bow, you'd first have to kill the front rank as Teclis is in the second rank and you'd get, at the very least, a -3 modification to even hit Teclis with ranged attacks. Not to mention you'd then be in range for everything the HE army got. And frankly, I'd just take some flaming Swordsmen and go crazy on any cc unit WE might offer. Even a unit of 15-20 sword masters downright destroys everything you throw at them in melee. S5, re-roll hits, double wounds. Not to mention Teclis could even roll Lore of Fire for superb trololol vs. a treekin army. Tabled by turn 3.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
First off it wasn't just a local pick up game for one i was talking about, it was a local tourney Not ETC i know but everyone knew there army by their army by the time we knocked out ones who didn't 
We had a rule that kinda nerfed teclis in the fact you had to choose a lore, right it in your army list and stick to it all day long. Probabilly to stop bretts gettign lore of metel'd every time. Teclis was playing in a CC centered army with a spearbunker, swordmaster hoarde and a few small chaff units of archers, bolt throwers and eagles. i got first turn, scouted in my waywatchers and scout hero. The rest of my army shot his arches of the bored with a little luck from hail of doom arrows, make the one next to it flee. then i plinked a wound of teclis with sniper hero. Swordmasters only have a 5+ save, so they arn't a good hoarde unit i'll tell you that. When teclis eventually got sniped to death, all i had to was try block all the magic (life) i could while he couldn't do anything about it.
Then my next game Pre-nerf Kairos blasted me, but you win some you lose some.
Alternitively couldn't you just pack a feedback scroll, wait till he 6 dices dwellers and then kill him like that?
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Post by: Sigvatr
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:First off it wasn't just a local pick up game for one i was talking about, it was a local tourney Not ETC i know but everyone knew there army by their army by the time we knocked out ones who didn't
We had a rule that kinda nerfed teclis in the fact you had to choose a lore, right it in your army list and stick to it all day long. Probabilly to stop bretts gettign lore of metel'd every time. Teclis was playing in a CC centered army with a spearbunker, swordmaster hoarde and a few small chaff units of archers, bolt throwers and eagles. i got first turn, scouted in my waywatchers and scout hero. The rest of my army shot his arches of the bored with a little luck from hail of doom arrows, make the one next to it flee. then i plinked a wound of teclis with sniper hero. Swordmasters only have a 5+ save, so they arn't a good hoarde unit i'll tell you that. When teclis eventually got sniped to death, all i had to was try block all the magic (life) i could while he couldn't do anything about it.
You played vs a very weak HE list then - I was talking about actually strong lists
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Post by: Ugly Green Trog
Insist he gets the new book next month if its a usual escalation league then by the time you get up to the level where he is allowed to take Teclis then Teclis won't be the same and will probably be more expensive to boot.
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Post by: jayzerus
 Sigvatr wrote:Right now, everyone who brings Teclis to the table is ruining the game for his opponent on purpose - which is, to me, an intolerable behavior and truly shows how much you care about sportsmanship.
I disagree with this assessment. Quite strongly in fact. To suggest that, if someone wants to bring a list with a character that they may have found interesting based on books that he/she read, and said to himself/herself: you know what, I am going to purposely ruin this game for my opponent - well, that is just downright shameful.
I'm not going to argue the point that Teclis is undercosted for what he does, and there is a good reason that he is banned from most touneys. Nor am I going to disagree with the fact that a prospective Teclis user should ask his/her opponent if it's ok before he is fielded. But to suggest that there is an intention of ruining an opponents day is just downright silly.
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Post by: Sigvatr
jayzerus wrote: Sigvatr wrote:Right now, everyone who brings Teclis to the table is ruining the game for his opponent on purpose - which is, to me, an intolerable behavior and truly shows how much you care about sportsmanship.
I disagree with this assessment. Quite strongly in fact. To suggest that, if someone wants to bring a list with a character that they may have found interesting based on books that he/she read, and said to himself/herself: you know what, I am going to purposely ruin this game for my opponent - well, that is just downright shameful.
I'm not going to argue the point that Teclis is undercosted for what he does, and there is a good reason that he is banned from most touneys. Nor am I going to disagree with the fact that a prospective Teclis user should ask his/her opponent if it's ok before he is fielded. But to suggest that there is an intention of ruining an opponents day is just downright silly.
I was talking of comp play here.
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Post by: roma
I thought teclis just made he tier one, rather than the ultimate army you should just surrender to?
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Post by: WarlordRob117
teclis doesnt last long in close combat lol
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Post by: Sigvatr
roma wrote:I thought teclis just made he tier one, rather than the ultimate army you should just surrender to?
Teclis facerolls most enemies.
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Post by: Amaraxis
Well, first off - how fast is your league growing? I mean at 2K will be what? 4 months or more?
Easiest way is that you talk to the LO and see if he can require that everyone uses the most up to date codex . If someone's codex changes in that time span, that they have to repoint their list, as is or as close as possible to as is, with the new codex. Then allow for adjustments to fit too many/too few points. This is not that difficult and would take like 10 minutes at absolute most for the LO.
Hopefully, he will be fixed (either nerfed or increased point cost) by then and with them 'being the next codex' - it should not affect too much in the way of the high point games.
If your LO is complaining that it is too much work - just explain then that as a basic means, everyone should be required to use the newest codex and that allowing people to play off of old codexes is a major imbalance in the TO.
But seriously - jsut talk to him...even the above is a simple and viable option...
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Post by: pities2004
Sigvatr wrote:Hopefully so.
Right now, everyone who brings Teclis to the table is ruining the game for his opponent on purpose - which is, to me, an intolerable behavior and truly shows how much you care about sportsmanship. I let our local HE player try him in a 2.5k game and he agreed that he needs to be toned down. It just isn't fun if a mage can spam 6ths without negative consequences. At the very least, he should always suffer a miscast with every doubles, not just 6s.
He is rightfully banned from all comp matches. The sooner he, in his current iteration, is removed from the game, the better.
Just play better
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Post by: Sigvatr
 pities2004 wrote: Sigvatr wrote:Hopefully so.
Right now, everyone who brings Teclis to the table is ruining the game for his opponent on purpose - which is, to me, an intolerable behavior and truly shows how much you care about sportsmanship. I let our local HE player try him in a 2.5k game and he agreed that he needs to be toned down. It just isn't fun if a mage can spam 6ths without negative consequences. At the very least, he should always suffer a miscast with every doubles, not just 6s.
He is rightfully banned from all comp matches. The sooner he, in his current iteration, is removed from the game, the better.
Just play better
Get on my level, son.
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Post by: captain collius
pities2004 wrote: Sigvatr wrote:Hopefully so.
Right now, everyone who brings Teclis to the table is ruining the game for his opponent on purpose - which is, to me, an intolerable behavior and truly shows how much you care about sportsmanship. I let our local HE player try him in a 2.5k game and he agreed that he needs to be toned down. It just isn't fun if a mage can spam 6ths without negative consequences. At the very least, he should always suffer a miscast with every doubles, not just 6s.
He is rightfully banned from all comp matches. The sooner he, in his current iteration, is removed from the game, the better.
Just play better
Please don't try this. Teclis is banned in most tournaments for a reason.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
You are saying to me that my oponent didn't have a good list, is it TOTALLY impossible that it is YOUR list that doesn't have the answer? HE arn't in the top three, so they do have answers, Look for them.
You can't just say that someone is ruining the game by using a good unit, well you can, but it just sounds like whining. In 40k its like saying flier spam ruins game, but thats not true. The game evolves, they are just another layer to counter, just like Teclis is. Throw a feedback scroll in your list, if you dont have to show him your list, wait till he throws a load of dice then ''bye bye teclis''. Would that not work? Or just shoot a LOT of cannons at him until he fails LoS, or death magic him. Or dwellers, or purple sun him, its not like they're arn't answers to him. And its not like there is only a single one either.
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Post by: Sigvatr
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:You are saying to me that my oponent didn't have a good list, is it TOTALLY impossible that it is YOUR list that doesn't have the answer? HE arn't in the top three, so they do have answers, Look for them. You can't just say that someone is ruining the game by using a good unit, well you can, but it just sounds like whining. In 40k its like saying flier spam ruins game, but thats not true. The game evolves, they are just another layer to counter, just like Teclis is. Throw a feedback scroll in your list, if you dont have to show him your list, wait till he throws a load of dice then ''bye bye teclis''. Would that not work? Or just shoot a LOT of cannons at him until he fails LoS, or death magic him. Or dwellers, or purple sun him, its not like they're arn't answers to him. And its not like there is only a single one either.
I'd appreciate input of people having played Teclis lists on a regular basis. /e: vs. people who knew what they were doing.
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Post by: tgf
How about you just wait a month and the problem resolves itself.
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Post by: Sigvatr
tgf wrote:How about you just wait a month and the problem resolves itself.
This, pretty much. 601 pts please.
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Post by: TCWarRoom
If Teclis is sooo broken, why have the high elves been denied wins in any major uncomped tournament. If what you say is true, then a good player with Teclis and his high elves should have won Adepticon last year and will win this year. It didnt happen last year and it wont happen this year.
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Post by: Krellnus
TCWarRoom wrote:If Teclis is sooo broken, why have the high elves been denied wins in any major uncomped tournament. If what you say is true, then a good player with Teclis and his high elves should have won Adepticon last year and will win this year. It didnt happen last year and it wont happen this year.
I know right, its almost as though competant players with balanced lists can beat him or something.
Who are we kidding it probably doesn't count because its not comped.
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Post by: Sigvatr
TCWarRoom wrote:If Teclis is sooo broken, why have the high elves been denied wins in any major uncomped tournament
Comp-wise, at comp tournaments, SC are forbidden to use anyway and thus HE never make it.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Sigvatr wrote:TCWarRoom wrote:If Teclis is sooo broken, why have the high elves been denied wins in any major uncomped tournament
Comp-wise, at comp tournaments, SC are forbidden to use anyway and thus HE never make it.
Really? That makes em boring because I have some fun Orc lists that run SC's.
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Post by: Sigvatr
 ZebioLizard2 wrote: Sigvatr wrote:TCWarRoom wrote:If Teclis is sooo broken, why have the high elves been denied wins in any major uncomped tournament
Comp-wise, at comp tournaments, SC are forbidden to use anyway and thus HE never make it.
Really? That makes em boring because I have some fun Orc lists that run SC's.
Well, those are competitive games, not friendlies aka just-for-fun games I also run Skarsnik in friendlies despite him being utterly overpriced and thus underpowered.
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Post by: TCWarRoom
Teclis made several appearances at Adepticon last year and didnt win. He will be there this year and wont win.
This alone means that although powerful and annoying, Teclis is not an instant win sc for the High Elves.
IMO and in actual tournament results.
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Post by: Makumba
If someone uses a character that is breaking the game, as a matter of fact, he is the one not being a good sportsman
yeah and before every sports even they should take Bolt , put him in a sack and wack him a bit , he too OP and bad sportsman , because has better traits to win in a tournament . 
If someone is realy having problems with teclis , then why isnt he playing HE in the first place ?
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Post by: Stoupe
Makumba wrote:If someone uses a character that is breaking the game, as a matter of fact, he is the one not being a good sportsman
yeah and before every sports even they should take Bolt , put him in a sack and wack him a bit , he too OP and bad sportsman , because has better traits to win in a tournament .
If someone is realy having problems with teclis , then why isnt he playing HE in the first place ?
Maybe because he finds HE models to be unattractive. Maybe because he does not like the lore. Maybe because he prefers to play/paint evil races. Maybe because he doesn't like playing with SC at all. Maybe he just doesn't like elves. Maybe he finds the lists HE create are boring. Maybe he doesn't feel the need to play a SC that ruins the play experience for everyone else. Maybe he doesn't find it worth it monetarily to purchase a new army just for a single game changing character.
There's a multitude of valid reasons why a player can hate playing against teclis, but not want to play him themselves.
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Post by: DukeRustfield
TCWarRoom wrote:Teclis made several appearances at Adepticon last year and didnt win. He will be there this year and wont win.
This alone means that although powerful and annoying, Teclis is not an instant win sc for the High Elves.
It doesn't work like that.
The fastest car in the world being driven by someone who doesn't know how to drive a stick shift, is slower than a bicycle. That doesn't mean the car itself is slow. "Several" people using a model isn't enough of a population to say anything because you don't know how competent those generals were. Just like if the winner of the tournament used a fireball spell you don't assume that fireballs are OP and ban them from future tournaments. If you went by that logic, everything would be alternately banned or unbanned based solely on whether the owner won or lost on a given year.
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Post by: Rommel44
Reason Teclis is considered op by many is related to the fact on how Overpowered the Magic Phase in this edition is. With so many people just throwing 6 dice at Dwellers Bellow or some super spell like that, Teclis pretty much does that, but doesn't have to just pray for sixes, he could roll 6 dice, get 2 ones and still reach the casting value, and it goes off with Irresistible Force. Now if they where to change it where he where to get it on a 5+ then the traditional 6+, then I think that would be fair, however currently he can be very strong depending on the game. I have seen games where he just single-handily wipes out an entire army without worry, as well as games where he has bombed, but for the most part, in my experience whenever he is in the game, he drastically changes the game, making it really hard for those who fight him to win. In short, Teclis is very strong but not unbeatable, reason it seems that way is due to the Magic Phase in this current edition.
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Post by: TCWarRoom
DukeRustfield wrote:TCWarRoom wrote:Teclis made several appearances at Adepticon last year and didnt win. He will be there this year and wont win.
This alone means that although powerful and annoying, Teclis is not an instant win sc for the High Elves.
It doesn't work like that.
The fastest car in the world being driven by someone who doesn't know how to drive a stick shift, is slower than a bicycle. That doesn't mean the car itself is slow. "Several" people using a model isn't enough of a population to say anything because you don't know how competent those generals were. Just like if the winner of the tournament used a fireball spell you don't assume that fireballs are OP and ban them from future tournaments. If you went by that logic, everything would be alternately banned or unbanned based solely on whether the owner won or lost on a given year.
I know WAAC tournaments and at an event that big with that much on the line, players would do it if it was that easy. This isnt some local tournament with a $25 box for first. Adepticon is a GT that has zero comp. If Teclis made it that easy to win, he would be played more.
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Post by: Krellnus
DukeRustfield wrote:TCWarRoom wrote:Teclis made several appearances at Adepticon last year and didnt win. He will be there this year and wont win.
This alone means that although powerful and annoying, Teclis is not an instant win sc for the High Elves.
It doesn't work like that.
The fastest car in the world being driven by someone who doesn't know how to drive a stick shift, is slower than a bicycle. That doesn't mean the car itself is slow. "Several" people using a model isn't enough of a population to say anything because you don't know how competent those generals were. Just like if the winner of the tournament used a fireball spell you don't assume that fireballs are OP and ban them from future tournaments. If you went by that logic, everything would be alternately banned or unbanned based solely on whether the owner won or lost on a given year.
It does this tiem around, because the argument isn't that he is the "fastest car in the world", its that he's not only the fastest car in the worlds AND he requires 0 skill/education to drive, that is the claim made when people try and ban Teclis.
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Post by: DukeRustfield
Not one person in this thread has said that or close. They are pretty well thought out explanations of why they think he is banned.
You're pointing to one instance of one tourney as proof. But then you could point to the many instances of many tourneys where he's banned as counter proof.
Saying he's T3 is an argument. Saying someone didn't win isn't an argument. If you give someone a .44 magnum handgun and they shoot at you and miss, that doesn't mean a .44 magnum is a wussy weapon, it means they missed.
Now if he wasn't comped in every tournament and HE always got crushed and people regularly took Teclis, that would be an argument. I haven't heard anyone hint that was the case.
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Post by: Malleus
 HoverBoy wrote:By the time you convince anyone to ban anything the new HE book will be out.
This. I haven't seen any of the new special characters being a real problem, and GW have built up a lot of credibility with me in the hardcover books. I'd suggest the most broken 8th Ed SC is Throgg, mainly for his ancillary benefit of making trolls into the game's best core, but you only have to get him HKB'd once to know he's not unbeatable. Wait for the new books to drop, I'd say. Skulltaker is fine now, so is Kairos, Mannfred is pretty good but not out of control. Really the only remaining offenders are teclis (soon to be fixed, we hope) and thorek (who would be very broken except he is found in the dwarf book). This dimension of the game is moving in the right direction. let it do so.
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Post by: DukeRustfield
I think the 8th SCs are very balanced. Khairos I think was a bit of an overnerf. But only slightly. If the goal of SCs is to be 75% flavor and 25% power, they're all right on. Acheron is still too much, however.
Throgg is kickass in every way. I loves me some trolls, and what's not to love about AHW (3pts!) trolls? But if they were insta-win everyone would have them. They are are still Stupid and still susceptible to flaming.
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Post by: TCWarRoom
From Teclis to cars to .44 magnums.
You have to love the Internet. I guess we will see what happens to the old boy in two weeks.
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Post by: John Rainbow
What else is banned in your FLGS? If the answer is nothing, I can't see trying to single out any item/char from any book as a good idea. Why should you ban one thing in one book and not stuff in others?
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Post by: Sigvatr
...because that one thing stands clearly out from all others
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Post by: HoverBoy
With about a week left in the current army book's lifetime any attempt to do so will be met with uncontrollable laughter.
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Post by: Micky
I read on Faeit212 (before it got pulled down), that the big all-doubles-IF and ignore-first-miscast stuff is getting nerfed, and that moon staff is getting changed to a 1 use only item that also lowers his S and T to 1 for the rest of the game.
Better?
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Post by: Eldarain
He was rumored to get all the BRB signature spells or all the High Magic spells.
If that gave him access to all the inherent traits to the BRB spells that would be pretty crazy.
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Post by: Grey Templar
the latest rumor is him getting either all High Magic spells, or the ability to pick one spell from each BRB lore. He's also effectively a Lvl5 wizard.
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Post by: jonolikespie
 Grey Templar wrote:the latest rumor is him getting either all High Magic spells, or the ability to pick one spell from each BRB lore. He's also effectively a Lvl5 wizard.
If that is 'roll one spell from each lore' that is brilliant, I no longer have to fear him. If it is literally pick one from each then it could be nasty.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Its pick one from each.
Of course he can't pick all of them from the same lore according to the rumor. So he can't get great internal synergy with specific lores, only whatever exists between having spells from different lores on the same caster.
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Post by: Micky
Wonder if its anything similar to that new Loremaster wizard who gets the signature spell from each of the lores.
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Post by: DukeRustfield
That's pretty close to Kairos, who is about his nearest cousin. Teclis being that he's a wuss in combat. Kairos being that he's a giant wuss in combat but at least he's a daemonic monster.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Grey Templar wrote:Its pick one from each.
Of course he can't pick all of them from the same lore according to the rumor. So he can't get great internal synergy with specific lores, only whatever exists between having spells from different lores on the same caster.
Matt begs to differ, he stated it's roll one spell for each lore. If he is able to *pick* one spell of each lore, he is broken again unless he also lost the ability to always IF.
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Post by: Grey Templar
The Scroll of Hoeth is the same, but its one use only.
The Moonstaff gives him the ability to either choose to add a bonus power die to each casting attempt, of if teclis suffers a miscast, the miscast is ignored. In either case, Teclis' S and T are both reduced to 1 for the remainder of the game. One use only.
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Post by: Tangent
So, I haven't seen the new book yet but I'm very interested to know what changes have happened to Teclis. Anyone care to post a short write-up of what Teclis can do now?
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Post by: d-usa
He's cheaper, but he also seems properly nerfed now. I wouldn't actually feel bad about fielding him now.
Two big changes:
He can either have all of his High Elf spells, or pick one from each other lore. While picking might still be a little OP, I think it is a lot better than "I just take all the spells from the lore that will screw you most!"
Most his super special abilities are one-use items now.
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Post by: Experiment 626
 d-usa wrote:He's cheaper, but he also seems properly nerfed now. I wouldn't actually feel bad about fielding him now.
Two big changes:
He can either have all of his High Elf spells, or pick one from each other lore. While picking might still be a little OP, I think it is a lot better than "I just take all the spells from the lore that will screw you most!"
Most his super special abilities are one-use items now.
IIRC he still basically gets two 'free' miscasts that won't blow him up, so that's pretty damn good right there.
As for his picking 1 spell per BRB lore, it's not ment to make him auto-screw your opponent now, but rather, build him into the most epic supportive monster you can!
For example, add another pair of characters to shift him into the second rank of a Phoenix Guard unit, and then support them with the likes of Glittering Robe/Wildform/Regrowth while hitting the enemy with Enfeebling Foe...
Sure, he won't auto-cast all his spells anymore like before, but still with +4 to-cast and being able to keep all his buffs on just their basic casting value, it'll still be a huge problem for most opponents to dispel all of it unless they've gone for purely 100% magic defense.
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Post by: d-usa
Is he as good as he was in the past and is he still ban-worthy though?
There is a difference between being a really good SC, and being broken. I think they managed to dial him down a notch or two.
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Post by: captain collius
d-usa wrote:Is he as good as he was in the past and is he still ban-worthy though?
There is a difference between being a really good SC, and being broken. I think they managed to dial him down a notch or two.
He is still powerful but he only gets 1 turn on irresistible on doubles and after that he is down to t 1
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Post by: Experiment 626
d-usa wrote:Is he as good as he was in the past and is he still ban-worthy though?
There is a difference between being a really good SC, and being broken. I think they managed to dial him down a notch or two.
I would think Alarielle would be the top contender for "if you have to ban 1 High Elf special character," rather than Teclis.
Her bonuses are insane for her cost, and she outright makes Daemons cry, especially when combo'd alongside the Ward Dragon Banner. (even daemonic re-directors won't work, becuase she'll just sit there and her auto-magic missile will take case of them!)
Teclis will still be a complete b******* towards certain armies, namely those who can't bring enough magic defense and/or deal with Phoenix Guard bricks that have 2-3 buffs on them.
But I'd still rather face him than freaking Alarielle!
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Post by: Grey Templar
Teclis got radically changed.
Now the only lore he can have all of is High Magic, which isn't a bad idea.
He's powerful but not the level of stupidity he was before. The Everqueen may have taken his place but that's just a first impression.
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Post by: Tangent
The "choose a spell from each lore" thing... does it let him pick? Or does he roll them?
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Post by: DukeRustfield
I think Teclis is fine now.
He gets to choose spells from the lores. But only 1 from each lore. Considering many lores synergize internally, you often miss out. Like having just one spell from Life or fire means you don't get their stacking benefits.
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Post by: HoverBoy
It also means he has to choose between, regrowth and flesh to stone. If he's able to take signatures i expect to see a lot of miasma+purple sun on him though.
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Post by: Acardia
He's toned down now. I now think that Arkhan, Fateweaver and a Slann have him beat.
Fateweaver has more choices, but limitations on which he can cast each turn, and for him, which is ok. And Tzeentch has a lot of options on it's own. Treason+ Doom and Darkness is a good combo
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Post by: Experiment 626
 Acardia wrote:He's toned down now. I now think that Arkhan, Fateweaver and a Slann have him beat.
Fateweaver has more choices, but limitations on which he can cast each turn, and for him, which is ok. And Tzeentch has a lot of options on it's own. Treason+ Doom and Darkness is a good combo
I'd still argue that Teclis is better than Fatey, for the sole reason that you can't hide him in a unit meaning no Look out Sir! rolls, his stats are sub-par for a Greater and he costs over 600pts to even field!
1 Cannonball can end Fatey a heck of alot easier than it will Teclis...
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Post by: Grey Templar
 Tangent wrote:The "choose a spell from each lore" thing... does it let him pick? Or does he roll them?
I believe it means he picks spells. Including the sig spells if you want.
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Post by: Aipoch
I wouldn't count Teclis out of the game just yet. He is toned down only in the regard that you'll have a chance to dispell him more regularly now, but that isn't what your problem is going to be.
He will effectively allow for one of two nasty things to happen. The first is the old trick of just flat out ignoring miscasts. We know what this is good for. He will then get debuffed. As a HE player, I promise you I could care less if he is S1 T1. If I allow either of those two factors to come into play for him, I've done something wrong and he deserves to die.
The second nasty thing is what will happen when your HE player rolls for a big magic phase. Activating the second option for his staff, allowing him to roll an extra dice with every casting attempt, is going to be a very big headache. Think about it, then come walk with me.
Let's ignore him taking High Magic for a moment. He will know 8 spells. That's a lot. He will have a +5 to cast. That's a lot. If he cast's on a purpose built "buff me" unit with the Avelorn banner, he will have a +9 to cast...you will need to roll 2 dice just to have a reasonable chance of cancelling out his wizardness on that unit. Don't think you'll care? You will when they become T5 and WS10.
If the HE player so chooses, there are dozens of combinations that will have VERY moderate casting values. Teclis, on a great winds of magic phase, will have 12 dice. Best odds are the opponent will have 7-8. Here comes the problem. Teclis will VERY safely 1-2 dice all of his spells, and add in his free one. That will turn his magic phase into, effectively, having 18-24 power dice. You will stop some, sure, but you will not be able to stop them all.
In effect, he went from being able to reliably get off 2-4 spells each magic phase that you couldn't do anything about, to casting 6-8 spells each magic phase that you can only stop a couple of.
Choose wisely ^_^
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Post by: d-usa
 Aipoch wrote: He will effectively allow for one of two nasty things to happen. The first is the old trick of just flat out ignoring miscasts. We know what this is good for. He will then get debuffed. As a HE player, I promise you I could care less if he is S1 T1. If I allow either of those two factors to come into play for him, I've done something wrong and he deserves to die.
Which he only gets to do once, in the entire game, resulting in the T1. Not every phase, not a couple of times, just once. And if he does choose this use for his Staff then this: The second nasty thing is what will happen when your HE player rolls for a big magic phase. Activating the second option for his staff, allowing him to roll an extra dice with every casting attempt, is going to be a very big headache.
Becomes a non issue. Because it is also a one time use ability, and it is a one time use that it shares with the first ability. It's either or. And even if he does use his second option, it is only for one phase. It's one extra dice to throw at spells during a turn. So its not "the first nasty thing that will happen and the second nasty thing that will happen" at all. it's "Either this nasty thing happens once (at a price) or the second nasty thing happens once". Either he rolls the regular amount of dice, and ignores miscasts (which are less likely with rolling less dice) or he rolls more dice and can't ignore his miscasts.
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Post by: DukeRustfield
1-2 dicing on Teclis is bad cuz if he fails to meet the casting requirements he's done which is a really terrible way to use a one use item. I think he's going to hold it for miscast avoidance and throw a zillion dice at stuff.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Didn't they lose the d3 power dice banner? Jesus, I gotta get back home >.<
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Post by: DukeRustfield
Yah, no power dice other than one use. So it's still possible for armies to overwhelm with dice. Like TK. Maybe even Doc by mega channeling.
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Post by: Aipoch
d-usa wrote: Aipoch wrote:
He will effectively allow for one of two nasty things to happen...
Which he only gets to do once, in the entire game, resulting in the T1. Not every phase, not a couple of times, just once. And if he does choose this use for his Staff then this:
The second nasty thing is what will happen when your HE player rolls for a big magic phase. Activating the second option for his staff, allowing him to roll an extra dice with every casting attempt, is going to be a very big headache.
Becomes a non issue. Because it is also a one time use ability, and it is a one time use that it shares with the first ability. It's either or. And even if he does use his second option, it is only for one phase. It's one extra dice to throw at spells during a turn.
So its not "the first nasty thing that will happen and the second nasty thing that will happen" at all.
it's "Either this nasty thing happens once (at a price) or the second nasty thing happens once".
Either he rolls the regular amount of dice, and ignores miscasts (which are less likely with rolling less dice) or he rolls more dice and can't ignore his miscasts.
The point was made that it is either or, highlighted in red. One of two things does not equal both. That being said, yes you will only ever face one of the two options, but remember what that means. You will have a player who throws many dice at a key spell you aren't going to want to go off (mindrazor on a spearmen horde in a key combat rings a bell), and he won't have to worry about the consequences. Worst case scenario for the HE player is that he doesn't get IF and the value of 6 dice is under 13. Not very likely to happen at all.
DukeRustfield wrote:1-2 dicing on Teclis is bad cuz if he fails to meet the casting requirements he's done which is a really terrible way to use a one use item. I think he's going to hold it for miscast avoidance and throw a zillion dice at stuff.
While I appreciate the reference to many many dice ("zillion" as it were), he'll throw 6 like always, and statistically roll above 20+ more times than not. He suffers absolutely nothing by 2 dicing spells using the second option of the staff for a free power dice. I'll give you an example.
My magic phase, I've got 12 dice. I've got two combats that just started, and they are even match ups. What should I do with my twelve dice? Assuming an AVERAGE roll of 7+ on 3 dice, I can reasonably cast 10+ spells without worry. That presents the following magic phase:
Flaming Sword of Rhuin - 1 dice, 1 free
The Curse of Anraheir - 2 dice, 1 free
Enchanted Blades of Aiban - 1 dice, 1 free
Speed of Light - 1 dice, 1 free
Flesh to Stone - 1 dice, 1 free
Curse of the Midnight Wind - 2 dice, 1 free
The Enfeebling Foe - 2 dice, 1 free
Soulblight - 2 dice, 1 free
I admit it's completely possible to roll snake eyes for two dice. However, I prefer to play the long odds, and the odds say that 35/36 times, I'm safe.
Now, to recap. Your HE units will be between S5-S7. They will be between T5-T6. They will have armour piercing, flaming, and magical attacks. They will be WS10 and I10. All but GW's WILL get re-rolls to hit, and they will hit on 3's and 2's, and they will wound most on 3's and 2's.
Your enemy will need 6's just to hit you. He will have to reroll any 6's to hit, to wound, and armor saves (which he isn't likely to have). His S, T, and pertinent secondary stats will be reduced, and he will likely need 4-6 to wound you.
Your enemy will have to choose very carefully what he doesn't want to go off, and in the end he will not be able to reliably stop everything.
That is what Teclis can do now. He can create a situation in which an entire battle can be heavily tipped in the HE player's favor. In just one magic phase.
And yes, it will be just one phase for the item. Only one phase to use his special abilities. But ya know what? HE's don't play the battle of attrition. They only need one good phase of magic and combat to cripple an army, and that's just what Teclis still allows them to do, albeit in a different way and at more of a gamble. Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, they did remove both the banner and his ability to generate d3 power\dispell dice. Still assumes that you roll a great winds of magic (10+).
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Post by: DukeRustfield
Flaming Sword is 8+. Let's take that as your first one.
There is a 7 out of 12 chance he fails that just throwing 1 die, as he'll total 7 or less. Or 58%.
Then you blew your item on your first cast and Teclis, your >500pt hero, is 1/1 and did nothing for one round.
Start off with multi dice and decline as you go. But you don't tempt fate that early. Be careful with average, if 51% is average, you still got a 49% of failure.
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Post by: Aipoch
...You're forgetting to add in his free dice? That's the whole point of the staff...
He must use at least 1 dice from the power pool, and gets to add 1 more free dice from using his staff. So, let's try the math again.
Flaming Sword Requirement: 8+
Wizard Level: 5
Minimum Dice Roll Needed: 3+
Number of 2 dice combinations which do not equal 3+: 1
So, again, 1/36 chance he does not cast an 8+ spell.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, on throwing a single dice, he has a 1/3 chance of failing, not a 7/12.
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Post by: DukeRustfield
Oh yeah, I forgot his level. Which is an awful lot.
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Post by: Aipoch
Agreed. Being level 5 actually makes his default casting stronger than it used to be. Hell, have him cast certain spells on a unit with the avelorn banner, and he is freaking +9 to cast before the dice are even rolled.
As to the original OP, his tricks are one use only, his point value is appropriately increased, and he is not invincible. I see no reason he would be banned by any local group.
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Post by: DukeRustfield
Yeah, I don't think so. I think he was a bit overnerfed. And then they took the spillover Teclis and added it to other sc's.
I mean the # of wards and KB makes this forum look tame.
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Post by: Tangent
In regards to the "get an extra power die with each casting of a spell" thing... can't Slann already do this EVERY magic phase?
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
You can't take the Avelorn banner unless you take Alarielle. Considering she's a lord choice you won't have both her AND Teclis in normal points levels.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Teclis is a lvl 5 wizard, he gets +6 (!) when casting High Magic, can pick 1 spell from every lore there is, can ignore two miscasts or Loremaster (High Magic).
High Magic has a ridiculously overpowered lore attribute that works extremely well with the lore's spells due to having very low casting values and is a very versatile lore overall.
The main problem is his ability to pick one spell from each lore. He is weaker than before, but still not balanced. As far as we can tell now.
...and seriously, the Avelorn banner is just 105% Mat Ward.
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Post by: pities2004
I think Alarielle is more broken then Teclis, and shes cheaper.
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Post by: Sigvatr
It's her banner that's hilariously broken. I mean, really, with this thing, any lvl 2 sorcerer suddenly gets a whopping +6 (!) to any casting attempts for Lore of Life / Light.
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Post by: Aipoch
How does Teclis ignore two miscasts? I know he ignores one via staff. Where is the other one coming from?
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Post by: Sigvatr
My bad
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Post by: captain collius
Sigvatr wrote:Didn't they lose the d3 power dice banner? Jesus, I gotta get back home >.<
Yes banner of Sorcery is gone I would gladly trade Botwd to get it back.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Sigvatr wrote:It's her banner that's hilariously broken. I mean, really, with this thing, any lvl 2 sorcerer suddenly gets a whopping +6 (!) to any casting attempts for Lore of Life / Light.
Any casting attempts cast at the unit with the Banner. If you're going to call stuff OP, get it right.
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Post by: pities2004
 AlmightyWalrus wrote: Sigvatr wrote:It's her banner that's hilariously broken. I mean, really, with this thing, any lvl 2 sorcerer suddenly gets a whopping +6 (!) to any casting attempts for Lore of Life / Light.
Any casting attempts cast at the unit with the Banner. If you're going to call stuff OP, get it right.
It's an honest mistake and the book is very new still, no need to get bent out of shape. It's still OP
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
pities2004 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: Sigvatr wrote:It's her banner that's hilariously broken. I mean, really, with this thing, any lvl 2 sorcerer suddenly gets a whopping +6 (!) to any casting attempts for Lore of Life / Light.
Any casting attempts cast at the unit with the Banner. If you're going to call stuff OP, get it right.
It's an honest mistake and the book is very new still, no need to get bent out of shape. It's still OP
You have to take it on the BSB and won't have a 2+ armour save unless he's going in a Cavalry unit, in which case Alarielle isn't in the same unit because putting Alarielle in a Cavalry unit would make 0 sense. Hardly OP.
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Post by: DukeRustfield
Tangent wrote:In regards to the "get an extra power die with each casting of a spell" thing... can't Slann already do this EVERY magic phase?
Yeah. But it's not an 8th book. See what happens later this year.
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Post by: JWhex
DukeRustfield wrote: Tangent wrote:In regards to the "get an extra power die with each casting of a spell" thing... can't Slann already do this EVERY magic phase?
Yeah. But it's not an 8th book. See what happens later this year.
Yeah the slann are really good in the 8th environment, but that average level of power went up with the new HE book.
GW is all over the place. Even just completely forgetting about the banner and you can see the demon codex is just gak compared to the HE book. You would think they werent even made by the same company. There is just no predicting how the lizardman book will turn out it could be anywhere from crap to overwhelming.
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Post by: DarthSpader
you shouldnt ban teclis. just because you cant fight him, you want to ban him? PLEASE.
either have a blanket special rule of no special characters or dont.
but banning a specfic SC because hes over the top in your opinion, or the internets is BS.
stop whining, read his rules, learn to fight him and grow a pair.
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Post by: Hetelic
The problem I see with Teclis, in his latest format, is still getting to choose spells after seeing what his opponent will be. This means he can see what army he'll be against, and can then pick the hardest "counter" to that army,
ie.. Oh, i'm playing DE/ WE .. we should pick dwellers for str tests
or.. I'm playing Orcs/ Ogres/ Undead, lets take PoS for initiative tests
That ability to be able to "react" after seeing what an opponent has brought is what is, in my honest opinion, the only thing that is over powered
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Post by: Experiment 626
Hetelic wrote:The problem I see with Teclis, in his latest format, is still getting to choose spells after seeing what his opponent will be. This means he can see what army he'll be against, and can then pick the hardest "counter" to that army,
ie.. Oh, i'm playing DE/ WE .. we should pick dwellers for str tests
or.. I'm playing Orcs/ Ogres/ Undead, lets take PoS for initiative tests
That ability to be able to "react" after seeing what an opponent has brought is what is, in my honest opinion, the only thing that is over powered
He's also an absolute b***** if you slap him into a unit of Phoenix Guard w/Skill Banner plus 2 other characters to push Teclis into the second rank...
Not only can you pick your instant kill 'uber spell of choice, but you can pick some rather disgusting buffs/hexes to turn those PG's into an absolute nightmare who are then backed up by not only their innate ward save, but a 2++ against almost every serious counter bar Dwellers/Final Trans or a few non-magical war machines.
It's pts denial shinanigans at it's finest! 
Still, with the new High Elves, I'd rather deal with Teclis than Alarielle!
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Post by: d-usa
And he is how many points for a one-turn wonder that will be hurting for magic dice most of the time?
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Post by: Grey Templar
To be fair, you only need one good turn of buffs.
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Post by: Sigvatr
d-usa wrote:And he is how many points for a one-turn wonder that will be hurting for magic dice most of the time?
With a casting bonus of +5, you only need 2 dice (avg. 7, thus total casting average per spell = 12) to reliably cast any buff in the game on your units. And with a total of 7 PD, on average, that still is a reliable way to get the spells you picked before off.
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Post by: d-usa
Spells that will kill you reliably, or keep his own units alive reliably?
Lets face it, Teclis went from IF casting #6 spells every turn, ignoring miscasts and getting lots of bonus-dice each turn from other gadgets to being a solid support caster that can do reliable buffs and debuffs and spend one turn either killing one of your spells or guarantee casting a super spell, but not both, and then end up T1. For a big chunk of points.
10150
Post by: PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
Sigvatr wrote: d-usa wrote:And he is how many points for a one-turn wonder that will be hurting for magic dice most of the time?
With a casting bonus of +5, you only need 2 dice (avg. 7, thus total casting average per spell = 12) to reliably cast any buff in the game on your units. And with a total of 7 PD, on average, that still is a reliable way to get the spells you picked before off.
Wow, so a lot of people on these boards seem to have no idea how dice probabilities work.
Yes, the "average" roll on 2d6 is 7. However, that's not enough information to go on:
Total on dice Pairs of dice Probability
2 1+1 1/36 = 3%
3 1+2, 2+1 2/36 = 6%
4 1+3, 2+2, 3+1 3/36 = 8%
5 1+4, 2+3, 3+2, 4+1 4/36 = 11%
6 1+5, 2+4, 3+3, 4+2, 5+1 5/36 = 14%
7 1+6, 2+5, 3+4, 4+3, 5+2, 6+1 6/36 = 17%
8 2+6, 3+5, 4+4, 5+3, 6+2 5/36 = 14%
9 3+6, 4+5, 5+4, 6+3 4/36 = 11%
10 4+6, 5+5, 6+4 3/36 = 8%
11 5+6, 6+5 2/36 = 6%
12 6+6 1/36 = 3%
So the chance of getting that "average" roll is the sum of it and everything larger, so 59%. Thus if you're relying on "average" rolls you have a 41% chance of falling short and prematurely ending your casting phase. That's a pretty huge risk when you've invested so much in your magic phase. Add in a third d6 and your probability of hitting that 7+ just jumped up to 90.4%, a huge improvement.
Personally, I prefer not to take a risk of more than 10% early in my magic phase. However, once you only have 2 or 3 dice left in your power pool there's much less at stake when you try to squeeze 3 spells out of there rather than 2.
So roll the safest spells first, then push to the riskier spells that have higher casting dice or that you're less concerned about getting off (and thus are using fewer dice for).
PS: a great tool for calculating odds is anydice.com
50832
Post by: Sigvatr
Ehm? You only automatically fail when you roll a 1 or 2. Let's look at some buffs and their casting requirement. Pha's Protection: 6+ / 12+ Flesh to Stone: 8+ Harmonic Convergence: 6+ Flaming Swords: 8+ / 11+ Wildform: 10+ It's not easy to cast most of those with 2d6 and a +5 mod? With casting bonus included, results you need to roll: Pha's Protection: 1+ / 6+ Flesh to Stone: 3+ Harmonic Convergence: 1+ Flaming Swords: 3+ / 6+ Wildform: 5+ Looks pretty safe to me. The main downside is dispelling, forcing you to roll more dice. /e: Man, thanks for the site. I've been looking for a site like this forever
10150
Post by: PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
My point is that talking about "average rolls" is misleading. What's more important is the chance of failure.
So rolling two dice against the most powerful versions of those spells:
Pha's: 41% chance of failure.
Flesh to Stone: 3% chance of failure
Harmonic Convergence: 3% chance of failure
Flaming Swords: 28% chance of failure
Wildform: 17% chance of failure
So safe...-ish. I would still leave some of those spells to later in my phase, or lessen the risk by throwing a third die at it.
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Post by: Experiment 626
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:My point is that talking about "average rolls" is misleading. What's more important is the chance of failure.
So rolling two dice against the most powerful versions of those spells:
Pha's: 41% chance of failure.
Flesh to Stone: 3% chance of failure
Harmonic Convergence: 3% chance of failure
Flaming Swords: 28% chance of failure
Wildform: 17% chance of failure
So safe...-ish. I would still leave some of those spells to later in my phase, or lessen the risk by throwing a third die at it.
You're not going to roll for the most powerful version though... (unless you're an idiot)
The idea is simply to spam as many buffs/hexes as possible to run the enemy our of dice and then get your 1-2 crucial spells off with ease. Phoenix Guard for example only really need 2 buffs to become 'uber... Get Wildform and Glittering Robe off on them, and you now effectively have Chaos Warriors with HE special rules!
Support the unit with a Frostheart and combined with 2-3 characters + BotWD, the unit is all but unstoppable outside of really borked dice.
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Post by: d-usa
Level 4 Archmage: 220 points.
Teclis: 450 points.
You are paying a 230 point premiums for:
+1 wizard level
Being able to get +1 dice per spell for one phase OR ignore one miscast during the entire game.
Pick one spell from each lore
If you are taking Teclis you are not taking a Level 4 that can pick BRB Magic and get better synergy and you are also sacrificing one of these:
Loremaster
Level 2
Level 1 (x2)
19 Sea Guard
10 Silver Helms
12 Reavers
17 White Lions
15 Phoenix Guard
7 Dragon Princes
1 unit of 3 chariots
Either Phoenix
So this:
Experiment 626 wrote:
The idea is simply to spam as many buffs/hexes as possible to run the enemy our of dice and then get your 1-2 crucial spells off with ease. Phoenix Guard for example only really need 2 buffs to become 'uber... Get Wildform and Glittering Robe off on them, and you now effectively have Chaos Warriors with HE special rules!
Support the unit with a Frostheart and combined with 2-3 characters + BotWD, the unit is all but unstoppable outside of really borked dice.
Becomes:
Level 4 (Lore of Metal for Glittering Robe)
Loremaster (For Wildform)
Phoenix Guard, 2-3 characters, BoTWD
Frostheart
12 spells to pick from, better synergy from having 4 Lore of Metal Spells, 2 wizards to channel dice.
Or
Level 4 (Whatever Lore)
Phoenix Guard, 2-3 characters, BoTWD
+15 more Phoenix Guard
Frostheart
Or
Level 4 (Whatever Lore)
Phoenix Guard, 2-3 Characters, BoTWD
Frostheart x2
Or
Level 4 (Whatever Lore)
Phoenix Guard, 2-3 characters, BoTWD
Frostheart
+Flamespyre
Are any of these options that much easier to face than Teclis?
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