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Post by: rhothy
I know that my subject message above might come off as a bit Harsh, so if you think I am asking everyone to stop playing/buying GW products than know that I am not asking for you all to find a new hobby, rather I am asking everyone to think about supporting the websites that we all know and love. The websites that have supported and help grow our hobby over the years by bring forums, battle reports, painting tutorials etc... to the masses.
With that said, I want to thank all of the people/companies out there for all of your support over the years.
What I fear is not that I now have no choice but to pay a few bucks more for my GW products, but that the local gaming stores will stop carrying products from a company that does not support their retailers... ie... reducing direct service items etc...
Lets take it a step further... companies like hordes bits, the bitz barn etc... will in essence be put out of business by these new changes.
I understand that this change in policy is to prevent companies from selling recasts sold "as is, without te boxes" which you can find relatively easily on ebay where one guy is selling 4-5 of one specific item at a deep discount. Look I get it... but what happens if companies like Dakka Dakka etc... decide to stop supporting the hobby now that they are no longer able to sell their products.
Lets take this a step further. Lets say that GW decides to change a "convenience fee" to be able to purchase products direct from their website? Oh wait... they already do that unless you spend $50+, which they are forced to due because of online competition. Once they kill the online market place whats to keep them from changing it to free shipping on orders of $200 or even $400 or less.
In addition, to a degree I can understand GW's position on wanted to prevent companies from counterfeiting their products and selling them without the box, but I do not see the reason for GW to stop legitimate companies from selling bits other than to increase GW's already large profit margins by forcing someone like myself looking for a few monstrous creature bits to have to buy another $50+ tyranid modle so I can get another set of TW devourers. Personally I'll start casting my own copies of the bits for my owner personal use before I shell out another few hundred dollars to outfit my 6 carnefex's to be WYSIWYG.
With this in mind... I propose that we the gamers join up with retailers to organize an online boycott of the GW store for a month to start, because I for one think that companies like MWG/dakka dakka etc...deserve to be able to make a living selling GW products as a reward for all of their hard work to promote the hobby.
What are your thoughts... will you stop buying products from the GW website for a few months if it gives companies the ability to start selling again online?
The first response that I received to my post was…
Really?
Yes, GW is cutting off their nose despite their face. Does it hurt great websites like MWG? Yes.
Does GW give 2 farts? No.
Look, no matter how you cut it... 40k is the most popular table top game in NA. Warhammer
Fantasy is the second. By most popular, I mean that GW beats out all the other gaming systems
very hard. I wouldn't be surprised if GW has 80% market penetration. That is effectively a
monopoly.
Since GW is a monopoly, they can do whatever they want and our only options are to stop
playing/buying their products, or to keep going on as normal.
Given the choice, I'll continue to play 40K. I will continue to buy kits that I like/want. I have a
very strong feeling that 95% of the other 40k players out there will too, even if they post here
supporting your pitiful boycott.
TL;DR: GW is a monopoly and can do whatever they want, and our options as consumers is to deal
with it or quit all together. I choose deal with it.
I completely disagree with what he has to say. His response is the problem. Even the smallest grass roots type movement can have large reactions. However... it has to be clear and concise as to what we want... and what we want is a choice as to where/who to buy our products from online... we are their consumers/customers. Why cant we dictate what “we want”!
If enough people stop buying products from their online store between now and June when the changes go into effect... than GW will have to rethink their position.
I am not asking everyone to stop buying products from GW or to start playing new games like Warmachine etc... but if we all band together with the companies that we love like MWG than maybe we can tell the bully in the school yard to learn to play with the independent online retailers.
I say stop the bully by hitting them where it hurts by Boycotting the GW online web store from now until they change their policy.
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Post by: pretre
This is not news or rumor.
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Post by: Bildsturmer
-Removed-
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Post by: Sigvatr
Watchout, a random person asking others to boycot GW.
Viva la revolution!
...ehem.
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Post by: Alfndrate
Triangle of Friendship 
I'm not quite sure what you're planning on doing with this OP, but remember this isn't new or rumors, so it belongs in Dakka Discussions.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Another month, another call for boycotting GW. Yawn.
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Post by: tarnish
I play the games, i buy what i feel like, i do as i please and i dont have to be told how to think again and again... bottom line is that i enjoy gws products and i can live with the current prices because i buy smart or used when possible.
GW hate is fine, but please, we have all seen this before and it´s hardly news.
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Post by: HoverBoy
Pff, you americans should have paid more attention to what big companies will be able to do with the laws your government passes.
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Post by: rhothy
This is not a random piece of news... I spoke with a GW sales Rep today on the phone about it who confirmed.
And I am not asking people to stop buying GW products... try reading the entire post... I am simply asking that people stop buying their products directly from the GW online store... Thus we are supporting the gaming community and our 3rd party companies like War Bitz... Daka Dakka, MWG, Bitz barn etc...
If there policies go into effect... there will be no more bitz sites. Do you want to see this? I do not. Without the online competition...
GW needs to learn to play nice in the online sandbox.
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Post by: pretre
rhothy wrote:This is not a random piece of news... I spoke with a GW sales Rep today on the phone about it who confirmed.
Yeah, we have a huge thread on it:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/514316.page
And I am not asking people to stop buying GW products... try reading the entire post... I am simply asking that people stop buying their products directly from the GW online store... Thus we are supporting the gaming community and our 3rd party companies like War Bitz... Daka Dakka, MWG, Bitz barn etc...
And this isn't news or rumors...
If there policies go into effect... there will be no more bitz sites. Do you want to see this? I do not. Without the online competition...
There is no if. They will go into effect.
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Post by: Fishboy
Surely this isnt Robert is it 
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Post by: spiralingcadaver
1, it's cutting off your nose to "spite your face"- inflicting self-harm as an overreaction; not umm, doing it regardless of having a face.
2- that's actually a more reasonable suggestion than I was expecting (boycotting GW as a whole). Only time I ever buy direct is for stuff I can't otherwise get, which is probably less than once a year, but that's a decent idea, not that I expect anything to become organized enough to make a notable difference.
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Post by: nkelsch
rhothy wrote:
And I am not asking people to stop buying GW products... try reading the entire post... I am simply asking that people stop buying their products directly from the GW online store... Thus we are supporting the gaming community and our 3rd party companies like War Bitz... Daka Dakka, MWG, Bitz barn etc...
How about people 'Pay where they Play'?
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Post by: pities2004
If I want to buy something from the GW store, I'm going to buy something from the GW store. I'm in for the hobby and crap happens, deal with it
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Post by: Sigvatr
rhothy wrote:This is not a random piece of news... I spoke with a GW sales Rep today on the phone about it who confirmed. And I am not asking people to stop buying GW products... try reading the entire post... I am simply asking that people stop buying their products directly from the GW online store... Thus we are supporting the gaming community and our 3rd party companies like War Bitz... Daka Dakka, MWG, Bitz barn etc... If there policies go into effect... there will be no more bitz sites. Do you want to see this? I do not. Without the online competition... GW needs to learn to play nice in the online sandbox.
And who are you to ask this, huh? You are a random person with no reputation coming to an open online forum, with nothing to back you up; you open a thread and then expect what? People suddenly going like "Woah man, I am totally gonna change my way of buying stuff!". This is not going to happen. Period. This entire thread is completely pointless. Sorry, but just saying the truth.
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Post by: NickF509
America is a feed me country. The vast majority of people don't care enough to know that our society is designed to feed money to large companies and was built that way from the beginning. It really doesn't matter, i just hope that I'm dead and my kids are prepared when at some point there is no money left to be spent and no credit left to borrow and entitlement turns to outrage.
 HoverBoy wrote:Pff, you americans should have paid more attention to what big companies will be able to do with the laws your government passes.
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Post by: rhothy
if one company is able to get away with it... who is to say that other companies will not do the same down the road?
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Post by: Azreal13
rhothy wrote:if one company is able to get away with it... who is to say that other companies will not do the same down the road?
Many other companies are run by competent individuals with an eye towards long term future growth.
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Post by: daedalus
rhothy wrote:
What I fear is not that I now have no choice but to pay a few bucks more for my GW products, but that the local gaming stores will stop carrying products from a company that does not support their retailers... ie... reducing direct service items etc...
This is already happening.
Lets take it a step further... companies like hordes bits, the bitz barn etc... will in essence be put out of business by these new changes.
I understand that this change in policy is to prevent companies from selling recasts sold "as is, without te boxes" which you can find relatively easily on ebay where one guy is selling 4-5 of one specific item at a deep discount. Look I get it... but what happens if companies like Dakka Dakka etc... decide to stop supporting the hobby now that they are no longer able to sell their products.
I'm pretty sure that it's just to prevent people from getting wholesale stuff and breaking it up. If you buy from a wholesaler or at list price, you're golden. These companies will stick around. Hell if nothing else, you create two companies, with one being the bitz business, and then you have the one buy from the other.
Also, Dakka is not a company, nor does it sell models.
Lets take this a step further. Lets say that GW decides to change a "convenience fee" to be able to purchase products direct from their website? Oh wait... they already do that unless you spend $50+, which they are forced to due because of online competition. Once they kill the online market place whats to keep them from changing it to free shipping on orders of $200 or even $400 or less.
What "convenience fee" are they charging already? You mean shipping? I can't take you seriously.
Let's take it two steps further, and suppose they force each individual person to open a wholesale account with them and buy a certain amount of product or they won't sell to you at all. Let's take it three steps further, and suppose they regularly lie test you to determine if you're buying non- GW miniatures! Egad! Scary! And equally unfounded.
In addition, to a degree I can understand GW's position on wanted to prevent companies from counterfeiting their products and selling them without the box, but I do not see the reason for GW to stop legitimate companies from selling bits other than to increase GW's already large profit margins by forcing someone like myself looking for a few monstrous creature bits to have to buy another $50+ tyranid modle so I can get another set of TW devourers. Personally I'll start casting my own copies of the bits for my owner personal use before I shell out another few hundred dollars to outfit my 6 carnefex's to be WYSIWYG.
Yup, it's a rather asinine policy. It's one of the more unfortunate sides of business when you're publicly traded and owned predominantly by hedge funds and investment corps.
With this in mind... I propose that we the gamers join up with retailers to organize an online boycott of the GW store for a month to start, because I for one think that companies like MWG/dakka dakka etc...deserve to be able to make a living selling GW products as a reward for all of their hard work to promote the hobby.
What are your thoughts... will you stop buying products from the GW website for a few months if it gives companies the ability to start selling again online?
Yeah, this is an awesome idea! All you failed to take into account is the following:
- Boycotting for any amount of time is inherently useless unless the duration is "until things change".
- Dakka isn't a company, and it doesn't sell models.
- Rather than boycott, why not organize a "buycott", and just have a bunch of people spend their money on GW stock instead of GW models. _THAT'S_ how you change business practices nowadays.
Furthermore, you read like a form letter that you just change the name of the target to reflect that you were posting on Dakka. That also limits your credibility.
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Post by: notprop
They already do, you just noticed GW that's all.
Still never be let it said I won't back a underdog, you go girlfriend and all that jazz.
What is this the 3rd/4th call for a boycott this week?
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Post by: marv335
Time to reset the clock.
Again...
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Thanks for letting me know to put you on ignore.
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Post by: Trondheim
Nice to know I should from now on ignore your posts.
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Post by: pretre
DarknessEternal wrote:Thanks for letting me know to put you on ignore.
Trondheim wrote:Nice to know I should from now on ignore your posts.
Umm. Great minds think alike?
Can we be done here yet?
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Post by: fire4effekt
Something tells me this is good for my Brick and Mortar, and it's a good time to start a bitz store
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Dear OP,
Every 4 months or so GW does something fairly obnoxious, to varying degrees of injury to the hobby or retailers or fanbase.
During these times there is initial outburst anger and vehemence, especially from those in the hobby who are 'cresting the wave' from being initially enthused to becoming more aware of the business practices, mindset and attitude of the company.
You may be surprised that your outrage is not shared, that we give you a jaded and cynical response, but for many of us, the company's mustache twirling, conniving, bullying and greed have long passed our anger and lounges nonchalantly in our apathy.
I used to love the company, dearly. I then passed into absolutely hating it. Recently I've split my feelings over it, I continue to love much of the background, many of the minis and playing the game with friends, but I loathe the corporation, it's arrogance, bullish attitudes, intolerance and overweening pride. Perhaps that will change when that bloated spider in the web, Kirby, leaves the company but I wonder what will be left after his wringing of every last dollar from it.
Meanwhile, I spend little now with them, if they produce something really good and I can justify the price (something rare nowadays) I'll still buy it, but likely now I will be moving more and more into other games and, more likely, other mini ranges to play the still popular GW games. I am currently pricing out alternative models to build a Vampire Counts army for fantasy and I think it can be done fairly easily and a lot cheaper, thanks to mantic, gamezone miniatures, reaper, avatars of war and many others. Also an imperial guard army with mantic's corporation and perhaps some hasslefree and studio mcvey minis as officers.
So chill, let them carry on with their evil schemes, wish a pox on their house quietly and await the downfall/change of ownership/replacement as top dog that will eventually claim them.
I burned up a lot of energy and enjoyment of the hobby by raging against them, now I just mutter, roll my eyes and get 'creative' in obtaining what I need to continue my hobby enjoyment.
Don't waste your time on them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  pretre wrote:DarknessEternal wrote:Thanks for letting me know to put you on ignore.
Trondheim wrote:Nice to know I should from now on ignore your posts.
Umm. Great minds think alike?
Can we be done here yet?
The guy is 7 posts old, we have no clue of his age or experience and time with the hobby. Many of us were angry like him at one or other stages of our wargaming past. I hardly think 'ignore' is justified.
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Post by: daedalus
So, in spite of totally having less exclamation marks, my solution to this got locked.
Hello, textdump:
myself wrote:
We seem to get some variation of the "Let's all boycott GW because of x" thread here about twice a month. More generally in response to unfavorable policy changes, price hikes, or other seemingly goofy actions being taken by GW. My goal is to provide a well reasoned explanation on why every single boycott has failed so far, why each one will continue to fail, and why you're only hurting the odds of one succeeding by recommending it. My fear is that this will not change anything, and I'll have wasted my time upon deaf ears.
On Why Boycotts are a Bad Idea, and Why Yours is Destined to Fail
First off, you may or may not be aware that boycotts are called upon specifically for GW products once or twice a month at Dakka alone, sometimes more often still if there is a well publicized fiasco or a sudden and painful corporate policy change, like a price hike. Frustration or irritation at these things are natural and to be expected. You're not to blame for feeling that way. I mean, after all, we're all only here because we enjoy 40k/Fantasy, and like it or not, GW is 40k/fantasy. Their rules, their miniatures, their sandbox. That anger and hatred you feel only shows you are genuinely passionate. Otherwise, you'd shrug and hang it up to do something else.
The problem here though is that you're boycotting something out of anger, it's something you accept as a hobby, and you're specifying a duration for it. Consider the statement, "Let's boycott GW for x number of days." Assume that your movement grabs momentum, and suppose even 50% of all sales are disrupted for that period of time. Now consider that I'm Tom Kirby (or some underling capable of making the policy change you've demanded). You, as a "protester", just defeated yourself by stipulating a period of time that you were boycotting the product. This all but broadcasts that you're returning back to being a customer once your period of time is over. You're going to buy those things you've deprived yourself of, and guess what? You only managed to resist buying it for so short a period of time, it's probably still on this quarter's earnings, That's right. I don't even have to point out your petulant little stunt to the people I am beholden to. You have done nothing but waste your time. In all fairness, I probably didn't even know your boycott happened.
Boycotts in general, unless executed properly, are a terrible idea, because with every unsuccessful person screaming for a knee-jerk boycott in response to a price hike, or an edition change, or whatever, there are people who might have taken it seriously who listen. They might even follow your lead, no matter how poorly thought out it might happen to be. At the end of the exercise, for the reasons mentioned above, they see nothing has changed. Congratulations, you've just killed off someone who might have been able to help make a difference. You've turned them into a cynic. They won't bother next time. You're preserving the status quo and helping GW. Well done.
So then, how do you have a good boycott? It's simple. You turn it into your hobby. You don't boycott for a week, a month, or even a year. You boycott. Period. Full stop. Once you've done that, you don't stop there. You market it. You develop a face for your cause; a polished website at a easy to find location, notifications at websites, youtube, maybe even advertisements. Tell your plan to everyone you can, in well thought out terms, and what you hope to cause. Advocate alternate games. Put up flyers in stores talking about how GW stuff hurts your community. Work on getting your local groups at your FLGS into other games, and let your FLGS owner know that you all are cool if s/he drops GW stuff.
A Brief Commentary on My Observations of Publicly Traded Companies and "Greed"
This is going somewhere, I promise. Publicly traded companies have a obligation to their stockholders to make money. This drives up their stock price, and also pays dividends. The problem here is that continual growth is desired. It doesn't matter if you make one billion dollars a year or one hundred billion, so long as you're making 10% more than that next year. It might not actually be 10%. It might be 5%, or 20%, or something entirely different. My point is that continual growth is demanded. As you all know, continual growth in perpetuity is not really sustainable. This means that, at times, you have to squeeze other elements, cutting costs, to achieve whatever your goal is. GW is not "greedy", it is simply full of people who want to meet their bonus numbers and keep their jobs, just like everyone else in a corporate environment.
The New Face of a GW Boycott; My Personal Recommendation
I have a simple and interesting idea. I make no guarantee that this will work. I'm not even aware of anyone who has even campaigned for something like this. It's a straightforward idea though. If you want to organize a boycott, go one step further. Take all that money you would have spent on GW product, and instead buy GW stock. If you don't like the way the company is being run, own the company. Urge anyone else who is interested in change in GW to do the same. Sell it to people as I recommend. Just, please, stop crying wolf on boycotts every other week.
---
Personally, I don't care about a boycott. I wouldn't support it, but I wouldn't rally against it or anything stupid like that. Would I like cheaper plastic army men? Of course. At the same time, they're plastic army men. It's a luxury good, being sold by a single company. I could manage without, and would probably be better off spending my money on something "productive".
I've just grown very, very tired of seeing this same topic come up time and time again. The above is genuinely what I believe you need to do to make this successful. Do it, or stop complaining.
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Post by: Samurai_Eduh
Oh look, another one of these threads.
53595
Post by: Palindrome
Boycotts like this don't work, indeed they can't work, as by their nature they are very small scale.
If you really want to do something just stop buying from GW entirely and play one of the many fine, and indeed superior, wargames on the market, or if you must play a GW game source everything from 3rd party manufacturers or 2nd hand from ebay so that you are still economically boycotting GW.
GW is undoubtable complacent and greedy but they are heading for a shock which will maybe, just maybe, set them back on the path that they abandoned over a decade ago.
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Post by: pretre
No doubt.
but they are heading for a shock which will maybe, just maybe, set them back on the path that they abandoned over a decade ago.
Doubt. People have been saying this for 10-20 years.
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Post by: kenshin620
Yay the quarterly gw boycott topic! Been waiting for the next one
Anyways until this site changes its name from something 40k related, to something....not 40k related then gw will continue their merry way
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Post by: juraigamer
Support your FLGS, don't buy online, and stop trying to use boycotts to solve problems.
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Post by: Pacific
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:Dear OP,
Every 4 months or so GW does something fairly obnoxious, to varying degrees of injury to the hobby or retailers or fanbase.
During these times there is initial outburst anger and vehemence, especially from those in the hobby who are 'cresting the wave' from being initially enthused to becoming more aware of the business practices, mindset and attitude of the company.
You may be surprised that your outrage is not shared, that we give you a jaded and cynical response, but for many of us, the company's mustache twirling, conniving, bullying and greed have long passed our anger and lounges nonchalantly in our apathy.
I used to love the company, dearly. I then passed into absolutely hating it. Recently I've split my feelings over it, I continue to love much of the background, many of the minis and playing the game with friends, but I loathe the corporation, it's arrogance, bullish attitudes, intolerance and overweening pride. Perhaps that will change when that bloated spider in the web, Kirby, leaves the company but I wonder what will be left after his wringing of every last dollar from it.
Meanwhile, I spend little now with them, if they produce something really good and I can justify the price (something rare nowadays) I'll still buy it, but likely now I will be moving more and more into other games and, more likely, other mini ranges to play the still popular GW games. I am currently pricing out alternative models to build a Vampire Counts army for fantasy and I think it can be done fairly easily and a lot cheaper, thanks to mantic, gamezone miniatures, reaper, avatars of war and many others. Also an imperial guard army with mantic's corporation and perhaps some hasslefree and studio mcvey minis as officers.
So chill, let them carry on with their evil schemes, wish a pox on their house quietly and await the downfall/change of ownership/replacement as top dog that will eventually claim them.
I burned up a lot of energy and enjoyment of the hobby by raging against them, now I just mutter, roll my eyes and get 'creative' in obtaining what I need to continue my hobby enjoyment.
Don't waste your time on them.
Was going to take time to write a post, but I think this sums it up pretty well.
Only thing I will advocate (and something which might have produced a better natured community spirit) would be 'support your local FLGS, regardless of what games you enjoy'. But, I think that's the kind of thing that most people do anyway if they have the opportunity.
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Post by: -Loki-
 Pacific wrote: MeanGreenStompa wrote:Dear OP,
Every 4 months or so GW does something fairly obnoxious, to varying degrees of injury to the hobby or retailers or fanbase.
During these times there is initial outburst anger and vehemence, especially from those in the hobby who are 'cresting the wave' from being initially enthused to becoming more aware of the business practices, mindset and attitude of the company.
You may be surprised that your outrage is not shared, that we give you a jaded and cynical response, but for many of us, the company's mustache twirling, conniving, bullying and greed have long passed our anger and lounges nonchalantly in our apathy.
I used to love the company, dearly. I then passed into absolutely hating it. Recently I've split my feelings over it, I continue to love much of the background, many of the minis and playing the game with friends, but I loathe the corporation, it's arrogance, bullish attitudes, intolerance and overweening pride. Perhaps that will change when that bloated spider in the web, Kirby, leaves the company but I wonder what will be left after his wringing of every last dollar from it.
Meanwhile, I spend little now with them, if they produce something really good and I can justify the price (something rare nowadays) I'll still buy it, but likely now I will be moving more and more into other games and, more likely, other mini ranges to play the still popular GW games. I am currently pricing out alternative models to build a Vampire Counts army for fantasy and I think it can be done fairly easily and a lot cheaper, thanks to mantic, gamezone miniatures, reaper, avatars of war and many others. Also an imperial guard army with mantic's corporation and perhaps some hasslefree and studio mcvey minis as officers.
So chill, let them carry on with their evil schemes, wish a pox on their house quietly and await the downfall/change of ownership/replacement as top dog that will eventually claim them.
I burned up a lot of energy and enjoyment of the hobby by raging against them, now I just mutter, roll my eyes and get 'creative' in obtaining what I need to continue my hobby enjoyment.
Don't waste your time on them.
Was going to take time to write a post, but I think this sums it up pretty well.
Only thing I will advocate (and something which might have produced a better natured community spirit) would be 'support your local FLGS, regardless of what games you enjoy'. But, I think that's the kind of thing that most people do anyway if they have the opportunity.
This, always. If you ususally buy your GW stuff at your FLGS, and you start boycotting them over this, the only thing you're really doing is hurting your FLGS. Games Workshop is a large corporation bringing in money from more sources than just their tabletop games these days, but your FLGS isn't.
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Post by: Platuan4th
 kenshin620 wrote:
Anyways until this site changes its name from something 40k related, to something....not 40k related then gw will continue their merry way
Technically, this site was named after the store before it closed.
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Post by: Pipboy101
I have not given GW any money for a year and a half since the last boycott and they seem to be just doing just fine.
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Post by: Palindrome
pretre wrote:
Doubt. People have been saying this for 10-20 years.
And its never been closer to happening.
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Post by: pretre
Well sure. If we say that the 'Demise of GW and their return to old values' is inevitable, then by definition, each day that passes is closer to happening than the day before. In fact if tomorrow, GW passes out free puppies and candy, it will still never have been closer to happening than then (excuse the tenses).
Unfortunately, we don't know that it is inevitable. So today (and every day after this), the 'Demise of GW and their return to old values' was both Never Closer to happening and The Furthest from ever happening. That is, of course, until it either happens or something occurs which invalidates this 'inevitable result'.
Okay, that was all just silly.
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Post by: Pacific
It's OK, I kind of understand what you mean 
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Post by: Kingsley
There have been a lot of calls for GW boycotts over the years, but none of them have been very effective. Ultimately the community is based on enjoying miniatures games and most people aren't willing to stop buying cool new stuff for their favorite games in order to make a point about GW's business practices. Further, there are always new people who have joined after the changes in question and thus see them as normal.
One ironic twist is that rumors indicate GW is shutting down the bitz sellers because it wants to start up its own bitz service again. If that's true, the "old guard" should remember just how good that is for the hobby.
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Post by: cheapbuster
We've boycotted our GW, It not just the prices which has annoyed us. Every Thursday night we would go down to use their games room (had about 20 6x4) tables) there would be about 40 people there sometimes more; However, a few months ago they stopped the Thursdays 'veterans night' for no reason, I mean, the amount of extra money having that many people would have made it doesn't make sense to close it?
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Post by: Palindrome
pretre wrote:
Unfortunately, we don't know that it is inevitable. So today (and every day after this), the 'Demise of GW and their return to old values' was both Never Closer to happening and The Furthest from ever happening. .
Thats only true if the demise of GW is something that will never happen, even if GW management was competent they will still die/be boughtout/merge eventually. All I know is that if GW carries on like they are they are fethed.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
I hear that in America, they are celebrating a festival called "Spring".
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Post by: Swan-of-War
 Pipboy101 wrote:I have not given GW any money for a year and a half since the last boycott and they seem to be just doing just fine.
Same here. Baby steps. More shall join. The storm grows.
Just waiting for GW to claim that any model killed in a game must be destroyed immediately
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Post by: pretre
 Palindrome wrote: pretre wrote:
Unfortunately, we don't know that it is inevitable. So today (and every day after this), the 'Demise of GW and their return to old values' was both Never Closer to happening and The Furthest from ever happening. .
Only if the demise of GW is some preprogrammed event, it isn't. All I know is that if GW carries on like they are they are fethed.
Ahh, but they have been carrying on like this for years and they have never been fethed. So experience says that they won't.
Just being the devil's advocate.
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Post by: Byte
Nah, won't be boycotting GW. The drive to work creates more aggravation in my life.
yawn...
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Post by: Palindrome
pretre wrote:
Ahh, but they have been carrying on like this for years and they have never been fethed. So experience says that they won't.
GW's margins are getting ever tighter though, sooner or later they will run out of road and its a process that has becoming more and more focused for nearly a decade now. Thats why I say that it has never been closer. They may well pull back from the brink of course but they are showing no sign of it yet.
Its stil perfectly possible to play GW games without giving GW a penny of revenue though which is what I encourage everyone who is thinking of boycotting to do (ideally I would prefer it if they moved in the wider world of wargaming).
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Post by: R3con
Hmm I've been kicking around buying 2 more black knight boxes, now maybe I'll buy 4 to make up for your boycott
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Post by: Pacific
pretre wrote: Palindrome wrote: pretre wrote:
Unfortunately, we don't know that it is inevitable. So today (and every day after this), the 'Demise of GW and their return to old values' was both Never Closer to happening and The Furthest from ever happening. .
Only if the demise of GW is some preprogrammed event, it isn't. All I know is that if GW carries on like they are they are fethed.
Ahh, but they have been carrying on like this for years and they have never been fethed. So experience says that they won't.
.
Although.. that's a line the British motor trade used for years. Not even updates of the Morris Minor could save it, and now even the Mini has become a cruel mockery of its former self, waved under our noses in a gloating manner by the blasted Hun
To be fair, I don't think it will be vets moaning and groaning on forums that will herald the doom of the company. As has been said, that has been going on since time immemorial (even though such groaning has become more protracted of late), and they are not really the target demographic anyway.
It will be when the kid off the street simply can't afford to play a game, has no interest in doing so for whatever reason, and when that happens in sufficient numbers, the Chinese investment companies backing Hasbro (or someone similar) will pounce and the next thing we know Marines will be coming pre-painted in clear plastic packaging on the shelves of Toys'r'us. And then we'll be really sad, some will claim this was inevitable, and others will rejoice that they need less time for painting (I'll be most certainly in the former camp).
There might be a cool animated TV series with a Dwarf and his human thief though, which will be cool
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Post by: kevlar'o
so if this is bad then for example i ( as a business) can not buy a packet of 16 chocolate bars and then resell them later? even that the chocloate bars have written on the packageing '' not for individual sale''
i see nothing wrong with what gw are doing, yes it may suck for you but it's a little thing call life - you can deal with it and grow up or get back inside your mum
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Post by: tarnish
*Blinks in utter surprise to see that this thread is still open*
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
MGS wrote:I used to love the company, dearly. I then passed into absolutely hating it. Recently I've split my feelings over it, I continue to love much of the background, many of the minis and playing the game with friends, but I loathe the corporation, it's arrogance, bullish attitudes, intolerance and overweening pride. Perhaps that will change when that bloated spider in the web, Kirby, leaves the company but I wonder what will be left after his wringing of every last dollar from it.
Meanwhile, I spend little now with them, if they produce something really good and I can justify the price (something rare nowadays) I'll still buy it, but likely now I will be moving more and more into other games and, more likely, other mini ranges to play the still popular GW games. I am currently pricing out alternative models to build a Vampire Counts army for fantasy and I think it can be done fairly easily and a lot cheaper, thanks to mantic, gamezone miniatures, reaper, avatars of war and many others. Also an imperial guard army with mantic's corporation and perhaps some hasslefree and studio mcvey minis as officers.
I have no words, 'cause MGS took them from me. I think in the last year and a half I've bought 2 Codices, the Dark Vengeance box and... umm... some Forge World Raven Guard torsos. As someone who used to splurge $600+ every 3-4 months or so, this is a big change. All the money has gone towards Kick-Starters for different games (Zombicide, which is awesome, Sedition Wars, Relic Knights, Rivit Wars) and towards the 40K RPGs (which are better than anything GW does, and I'm not just saying that as a writer of some of those books - I was a fan long before I got asked to write anything).  Kingsley wrote:One ironic twist is that rumors indicate GW is shutting down the bitz sellers because it wants to start up its own bitz service again. If that's true, the "old guard" should remember just how good that is for the hobby.
If we're lucky sell individual packets of Kool-Aid! (/snark)
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Post by: Pacific
 kevlar'o wrote:
i see nothing wrong with what gw are doing, yes it may suck for you but it's a little thing call life - you can deal with it and grow up or get back inside your mum
Are you posting drunk.. ? Or even for real.. ? Whatever, seriously mate, if this is just a joke spree you are on, tremendous work - I've been coming across your threads throughout the forum, and in between the comments about wiping North Korea off the face of the earth, telling people to shut up or otherwise just go back inside their mum, there is some really sterling work there. Keep it up man, it's hilarious 
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Post by: Grot 6
We've already got 5 or 6 boycotts in place. We have the main gate, and are already burning Matt Ward at the stake. The main factories are going to the torch after we figure out how to work the guillotine.
Why are you late? We had to start the fires without you!
And- I've spent my money elsewhere and have been all the better for it.
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Post by: KingmanHighborn
rhothy wrote:I understand that this change in policy is to prevent companies from selling recasts sold "as is, without te boxes" which you can find relatively easily on ebay where one guy is selling 4-5 of one specific item at a deep discount. Look I get it... but what happens if companies like Dakka Dakka etc... decide to stop supporting the hobby now that they are no longer able to sell their products.
A bit off topic but I've never seen this on Feebay. Here recently you save about 5 bucks once shipping is factored in on most sales, and none are obvious recasts. I mean...I have no problem knowingly getting recasts of bitz and even models, if they are quality and cheap. Even trade authentic GW stuff for the recasts if it fills my needs.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
 Platuan4th wrote: kenshin620 wrote:
Anyways until this site changes its name from something 40k related, to something....not 40k related then gw will continue their merry way
Technically, this site was named after the store before it closed.
Dakka-dakka was actually used in some of the earlier Moebius comics from the 1970s as the onomatopoeia word for automatic weapons.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Ok, ill participate. Right after the tau release and after my eldar army and tyranid.
But i promise Ill boycott eventually.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
To the point of the thread, if it is something that you are serious about - then you should go about it in a concerted manner.
At the very least, you start a Facebook page which allows you to actually track boycott members in a reasonable manner. The other plus of that is that corporations have an irrational fear of Facebook. If you manage to get enough people on board their, and then follow up with concise goals for your boycott - you will likely get GW's attention. I think it was at around 800 or so members that the Australian Facebook Price concern got GW's attention.
Follow that up with a twitter hashtag and frequent (but poignant) use of it. Again, corporations have this weird view of social media...it is voodoo or magic to them.
Get everyone to fax, mail or email copies of receipts when you buy goods from other companies to GW Nottingham. Again, if one person does it...not much impact. You get 500-1000 people cramming up inboxes or fax lines with copies of receipts and it gets the attention of management...if for no other reason than it slows their secretaries down.
It isn't something that will be an overnight impact - but actions like those have caused significant changes in corporate policies. A retailer based movement would be more effective faster - just a question of whether or not any of them are in a position to stand up or roll over.
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Post by: Platuan4th
 Sean_OBrien wrote: Platuan4th wrote: kenshin620 wrote: Anyways until this site changes its name from something 40k related, to something....not 40k related then gw will continue their merry way
Technically, this site was named after the store before it closed.
Dakka-dakka was actually used in some of the earlier Moebius comics from the 1970s as the onomatopoeia word for automatic weapons.
That's a neat factoid, actually. I wasn't aware of it, thank you. Doesn't change a bit what I said though. DakkaDakka the website is named for DakkaDakka the store.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Platuan4th wrote: Sean_OBrien wrote: Platuan4th wrote: kenshin620 wrote:
Anyways until this site changes its name from something 40k related, to something....not 40k related then gw will continue their merry way
Technically, this site was named after the store before it closed.
Dakka-dakka was actually used in some of the earlier Moebius comics from the 1970s as the onomatopoeia word for automatic weapons.
That's a neat factoid, actually. I wasn't aware of it, thank you.
Doesn't change a bit what I said though. DakkaDakka the website is named for DakkaDakka the store.
True enough...just that the path normally extends back beyond the GW point in the sequence of creative events. Might have been used even before Moebius used it - though he is the oldest that my addled mind can recall. A lot of people seem to think that GW is the headwaters of all things science fiction (and strangely otherwise...had someone swear up and down that ultramarine blue would be liable for trademark violations if GW ever found out about it...).
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Post by: Platuan4th
Sean_OBrien wrote:(and strangely otherwise...had someone swear up and down that ultramarine blue would be liable for trademark violations if GW ever found out about it...).
I've seen that one myself(or rather, that it wasn't a paint name GW came up with). I and another friend(who used to paint other models before playing army mans) had to take them to a Hobby Lobby to show them the truth.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
People don't really believe that these measures are a reaction to recasters on eBay?
Come on... 
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Post by: Bullockist
Hasn't GW effectively put a boycott on their own products in Aus? It's time the rest of you caught up! (because 1 day soon your prices will..)
Boycott GW before they force you to do so with more inane company policies.
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Post by: Kyrolon
How about a song for the boycotters Les Mis style:
Do you hear the gamers sing
Singing the songs of angry nerds
They will be storming off to Lenton
Like a horde of angry Zergs.
Do you hear the gamers sing
Say do you hear the distant dice
We wil stop buying all your toys
Until you be nice!
We have played your games for years now
In the basements of our moms.
We have painted all our troopers
In your colors bold and strong
But you have betrayed us
So now we are all moving on!
Do you hear the gamers sing
Singing the songs of angry nerds
It is the music of the people
Who will not be led like herds
Do you hear the gamers sing
Say do you hear the distant song
It is the sound of all of the sales
That will soon be gone.
Ahhhhhhhhh
Ahhhhhhhhhh
Ahhhhhhhh
That will be gone!
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
It will not work GW does not care, another price rice will deal with that.
maybe this will make an impresssion on GW?
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
 H.B.M.C. wrote:People don't really believe that these measures are a reaction to recasters on eBay?
Come on...
Of course they are, GW said so. People don't know if the plastic bits that they buy from Neal at the Warstore are really genuine GW bits or if they are resin/metal recasts...or, wait - I am pretty sure a one armed blind man could tell the difference between resin or metal and plastic.
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Post by: SagesStone
In fact GW use one in QA just to be sure of it.
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Post by: Mr. Burning
 Jehan-reznor wrote:It will not work GW does not care, another price rice will deal with that.
maybe this will make an impresssion on GW?
Headline:
Disgruntled nerd Immolates themselves in front of store. Wasted money on petrol rather than buying plasticrack.
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Post by: tgf
Thank you op, I needed my daily laugh. This is like asking addicts to boycott their drug dealer because he over charges. Not going to happen.
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Post by: Arschbombe
Sean_OBrien wrote:To the point of the thread, if it is something that you are serious about - then you should go about it in a concerted manner.
At the very least, you start a Facebook page which allows you to actually track boycott members in a reasonable manner. The other plus of that is that corporations have an irrational fear of Facebook. If you manage to get enough people on board their, and then follow up with concise goals for your boycott - you will likely get GW's attention. I think it was at around 800 or so members that the Australian Facebook Price concern got GW's attention.
Follow that up with a twitter hashtag and frequent (but poignant) use of it. Again, corporations have this weird view of social media...it is voodoo or magic to them.
Get everyone to fax, mail or email copies of receipts when you buy goods from other companies to GW Nottingham. Again, if one person does it...not much impact. You get 500-1000 people cramming up inboxes or fax lines with copies of receipts and it gets the attention of management...if for no other reason than it slows their secretaries down.
It isn't something that will be an overnight impact - but actions like those have caused significant changes in corporate policies. A retailer based movement would be more effective faster - just a question of whether or not any of them are in a position to stand up or roll over.
Oh, look. Reasonable discourse. Absolutely unacceptable in this kind of thread. We need dramatic calls for action. We need great and futile plans to teach GW a lesson. Something like a global conspiracy to do smash and grabs on all the little one-man GW stores around the world at the same time. It would be so awesome. People already "steal" from GW with recasting, but no one really knows how much. If people start knocking off the little one-man stores and carting away boxes of plasticrack we could start putting a dollar value on the losses to GW. Plus think of the cool made-for-TV movie that will get made after the FBI and Interpol catch everyone involved.
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Post by: kronk
rhothy wrote:
I say stop the bully by hitting them where it hurts by Boycotting the GW online web store from now until they change their policy.
Agreed! I'm just buying Forge World for the rest of this year. Except for a Forge Fiend and a Hell Drake from my local store.
Unless they don't have it. If not, I'll buy it from GW instead. Oh, and I'm using a lot of plasma on my Chosen squads, so I'll need to buy those GW Plasma Gun packs, too.
But other than that, I already have what I need for my Chaos army.
Unless a Black Templar or Space Marine codex comes out. I'd like a Limited Edition Black Templar Codex. A lot, actually.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Don't boycott GW, just switch to a different system. The more GW's marketshare decreases the better for everyone, and the less their inevitable fall will hurt the industry as a whole.
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Post by: pretre
 kronk wrote:rhothy wrote:
I say stop the bully by hitting them where it hurts by Boycotting the GW online web store from now until they change their policy.
Agreed! I'm just buying Forge World for the rest of this year. Except for a Forge Fiend and a Hell Drake from my local store.
Unless they don't have it. If not, I'll buy it from GW instead. Oh, and I'm using a lot of plasma on my Chosen squads, so I'll need to buy those GW Plasma Gun packs, too.
But other than that, I already have what I need for my Chaos army.
Unless a Black Templar or Space Marine codex comes out. I'd like a Limited Edition Black Templar Codex. A lot, actually.
/slowclap Automatically Appended Next Post: Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The more GW's marketshare decreases the better for everyone, and the less their inevitable fall will hurt the industry as a whole.
How is a decrease in GW's market share good for anyone involved? Bad for GW, bad for us, bad for FLGS... It would be much better if they kept their marketshare and became sensible again. Also, nothing is inevitable.
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Post by: Balance
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Don't boycott GW, just switch to a different system. The more GW's marketshare decreases the better for everyone, and the less their inevitable fall will hurt the industry as a whole.
That's pretty much boycotting without making a big deal. I'm cool with that. Automatically Appended Next Post: pretre wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The more GW's marketshare decreases the better for everyone, and the less their inevitable fall will hurt the industry as a whole.
How is a decrease in GW's market share good for anyone involved? Bad for GW, bad for us, bad for FLGS... It would be much better if they kept their marketshare and became sensible again. Also, nothing is inevitable.
Unless the FLGS is a GW store, the only way it's "bad" for them is if they're stuck with a bunch of unsellable 40k stock. They can switch to other games pretty easily... Most smaller companies treat their retailer accounts pretty well, or use one of the big distributors. Automatically Appended Next Post: Note that I am a bit biased, of course.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
pretre wrote:[ Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The more GW's marketshare decreases the better for everyone, and the less their inevitable fall will hurt the industry as a whole.
How is a decrease in GW's market share good for anyone involved? Bad for GW, bad for us, bad for FLGS... It would be much better if they kept their marketshare and became sensible again.
How do you figure? GW's marketshare is decreasing. From various threads here: in the past decade, GW's revenue has increased by less than 2%, despite (and probably in good part because of) the constant price increases (~35-100% in the past two years, depending on the item) and lose sales (they saw a profit increase of less than half their price increase last year), in an industry that grew by 20% last year.
The more we move over to the other companies in the industry, the better off everyone involved becomes; LGS stop relying on a product sold by a collapsing company that actively hates its customers and retailers, instead resting on a broader base of product lines; we stop having to put up with a company that takes 80's stereotypes as a recommendation instead of a cautionary tale; and the industry as a whole becomes better insulated against the coming collapse of its currently largest player.
Also, nothing is inevitable.
Games Workshop's fall kind of is at this point. It has no growth, boasts a profit by way of slashing expenses, destroys its market base through psychotic price hikes, and is facing a thriving industry of companies that actually know what they're doing. I say let it die already, so someone competent can buy up warhammer.
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Post by: pretre
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:How do you figure? GW's marketshare is decreasing. From various threads here: in the past decade, GW's revenue has increased by less than 2%, despite (and probably in good part because of) the constant price increases (~35-100% in the past two years, depending on the item) and lose sales (they saw a profit increase of less than half their price increase last year), in an industry that grew by 20% last year.
I'm not debating that they have tighter margins and have made poor business decisions. That really has little to do with Market share though since it doesn't address the size of the market. The more we move over to the other companies in the industry, the better off everyone involved becomes;
This is the part I'm debating. I don't want to play other games so moving to other companies is not really an option. LGS stop relying on a product sold by a collapsing company that actively hates its customers and retailers, instead resting on a broader base of product lines; we stop having to put up with a company that takes 80's stereotypes as a recommendation instead of a cautionary tale; and the industry as a whole becomes better insulated against the coming collapse of its currently largest player.
Do not attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. Games Workshop's fall kind of is at this point. It has no growth, boasts a profit by way of slashing expenses, destroys its market base through psychotic price hikes, and is facing a thriving industry of companies that actually know what they're doing. I say let it die already, so someone competent can buy up warhammer.
And yet they are still here despite people saying the same damn thing for 20 years. I guess we'll see when it does or doesn't happen. Luckily, this thread will pop up at least 4 times a year for us to check that claim until doomsday.
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Post by: Formosa
htI'm all for a boycott, thing is the 40k "community" isn't actually a community in the sense that they will band together in one voice, for every person on here that whines and moans, there are others who dont even use any forums, the only way to get tohear there opinion is to literally stand outside gw and get a Sig on a petition or other similar thing.
Not gonna happen.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
pretre wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:How do you figure? GW's marketshare is decreasing. From various threads here: in the past decade, GW's revenue has increased by less than 2%, despite (and probably in good part because of) the constant price increases (~35-100% in the past two years, depending on the item) and lose sales (they saw a profit increase of less than half their price increase last year), in an industry that grew by 20% last year.
I'm not debating that they have tighter margins and have made poor business decisions. That really has little to do with Market share though since it doesn't address the size of the market.
They have no growth in an industry that increased by 20% last year alone. That sounds like pretty drastically falling marketshare to me.
This is the part I'm debating. I don't want to play other games so moving to other companies is not really an option.
Fair enough, though Malifaux seems absolutely amazing, and Infinity looks quite nice. Warmahordes looks kind of meh though.
Games Workshop's fall kind of is at this point. It has no growth, boasts a profit by way of slashing expenses, destroys its market base through psychotic price hikes, and is facing a thriving industry of companies that actually know what they're doing. I say let it die already, so someone competent can buy up warhammer.
And yet they are still here despite people saying the same damn thing for 20 years. I guess we'll see when it does or doesn't happen. Luckily, this thread will pop up at least 4 times a year for us to check that claim until doomsday.
It was a silly thing to say when GW was a monopoly. When the industry is thriving and they're imploding? The guy calling the shots at GW seems dead set on driving the company into the ground and squeezing as much blood from it and its customers as possible before he retires.
I don't think it's a question of if, but when, and I feel a moral responsibility to help it along. A thread like this led me to look into other games, and I'm glad for that. If just one person reading this follows suit, it'll have been worth having taken the time to type this.
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Post by: daedalus
kronk wrote:
Unless a Black Templar or Space Marine codex comes out. I'd like a Limited Edition Black Templar Codex. A lot, actually.
Better get two. One to make sure everyone else knows you're better than them. The other one to leave in the shrink wrap for the resale value.
That's what I did with my D&D 3.5 limited edition books.
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Post by: kronk
I don't really care about reselling them. Its for me.
As for the "One to make sure everyone else knows you're better than them" comment, I don't know you, so I have no idea if you're joking, serious, or trolling, so I'll assume innocence.
For NOW!
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Post by: daedalus
kronk wrote:I don't really care about reselling them. Its for me.
As for the "One to make sure everyone else knows you're better than them" comment, I don't know you, so I have no idea if you're joking, serious, or trolling, so I'll assume innocence.
For NOW!
Apologies, I was joking. I was hoping the obviously silly comment about the resale value of a 40k codex would be an indicator. No troll intended.
AND NOW YOU KNOW!
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Post by: kronk
And knowing is what, boys and girls?!? 
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Post by: Scipio Africanus
One cuts off one's nose to spite his face, not despite it.
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Post by: Nucflash
Not hard for me personaly to join the boycott . Dont play Games Workshop games, because the company has become crap over the years.
There are also alot of better games out there to play, made by companies that care more about their customers then GW do theirs.
Personaly I have only been talking trash about GW for years now. Long before these recent events.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Boycotts never get anywhere because there's no unified support for anything in the hobby and most people don't care. They're plastic men, it's not some gross ethical violation from some food producer that turns their customers against them in droves.
I don't know what lies in GW's future, I don't think they are doing themselves any good and I think their attitude to placing themselves in the hobby is toxic to other companies and for customer choice. But there's nothing I can do, I don't buy their stuff any more anyway do that's as far as it goes.
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Post by: kronk
Yes. As vocal as people are on sites like Dakka Dakka, we're probably only 5% of the 40k and Fantasy players, if that.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
kronk wrote:Yes. As vocal as people are on sites like Dakka Dakka, we're probably only 5% of the 40k and Fantasy players, if that.
Not sure if it has changed in recent years (likely with Facebook...it has, but forums are not Facebook...which is why I recommended Facebook as opposed to forums to organize your boycott)...but it used to be a rule of thumb that each person online spoke for roughly 1000 people who didn't go there. Although the opinions of the active forum members tend to be more strongly held - they are strongly held in a manner which is reflective of those who do not participate in online forums.
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Post by: Typhus the Betrayer
Would this ban of products being sold on sites like Dakka Dakka also count as bring banned from selling stuff on ebay?
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Post by: pretre
 Typhus the Betrayer wrote:Would this ban of products being sold on sites like Dakka Dakka also count as bring banned from selling stuff on ebay?
You might want to read up a bit on what's going on. None of what you asked about is occuring.
1) Dakka doesn't sell things.
2) People on dakka and e-bay wouldn't be affected unless they bought directly from GW.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
 Howard A Treesong wrote:Boycotts never get anywhere because there's no unified support for anything in the hobby and most people don't care. They're plastic men, it's not some gross ethical violation from some food producer that turns their customers against them in droves.
I don't know what lies in GW's future, I don't think they are doing themselves any good and I think their attitude to placing themselves in the hobby is toxic to other companies and for customer choice. But there's nothing I can do, I don't buy their stuff any more anyway do that's as far as it goes.
They actually do, granted it does take a small effort on the part of those who care a bit one way or another. You don't necessarily need everyone to agree on how GW should fix their problems - you just need to get those who agree that their is a problem to agree to do the same thing. Clicking a like or joining a Facebook group is one of the easiest ways that you can round them up. Doesn't take much effort at all on the part of those who are disenfranchised, and it has passive advertising effects as those who you are connected to through that network will see and possibly support the issue.
The second thing, and something which I have seen happen myself (was a consultant who cataloged the responses to data mine them) is to send GW HQ copies of your receipts for purchases for other peoples products. Leave a note, like "Today I went into my local hobby store and instead of buying your Land Raider, I bought 3 kits from Privateer Press" [not trying to make it a GW v PP thing...just a company name] or "I wanted to order some miniatures online today, but sadly you don't have any independent online retailers anymore, so I ordered some Freebooter miniatures from The War Store instead" or "I wanted to make a new Blood Bowl team, but unfortunately you have stopped producing new Blood Bowl miniatures - so instead I ordered a new team from Impact Miniatures".
Short messages, to the point. It takes half a minute to scribble a note on a piece of paper and scan in a receipt to email off to GW HQ (or use snail-mail/faxes...those archaic methods of communication often have more impact because it is a tactile item that they have to physically push about). Provided that a concerted effort could be made to move things in the same general direction - there will be a response. Automatically Appended Next Post: pretre wrote: Typhus the Betrayer wrote:Would this ban of products being sold on sites like Dakka Dakka also count as bring banned from selling stuff on ebay?
You might want to read up a bit on what's going on. None of what you asked about is occuring.
1) Dakka doesn't sell things.
2) People on dakka and e-bay wouldn't be affected unless they bought directly from GW.
Or from a supplier who buys from a distributor who buys from GW.
The only ones who are truly not impacted would be individuals who are selling leftovers from their own personal projects or those who are selling off old armies. Everyone else in North America will be touched by the regulations in some manner if they make money dealing with GW products online.
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Post by: pretre
You mean the online US regulations that have been in effect since 2003. Yeah they really shut down selling of 40k on eBay.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
pretre wrote:You mean the online US regulations that have been in effect since 2003. Yeah they really shut down selling of 40k on eBay.
Again...you need to look more closely. Up until now, you could skirt the issue in a number of different ways. Retailers who purchase through distributors were not under the same internet restrictions as retailers who purchase from GW directly. Retailers could also sell items to...say Bob, the local eBay fanatic for a 30% discount, he could sell them through eBay. The store taps a market that is out of their reach, Bob makes a bit of money on the side, GW's restrictions are met to the letter (though not intent).
The new rules forbid retailers from selling through eBay (or other online source). They forbid distributors to sell to retailers who sell through eBay (or other online source). They forbid retailers from selling to a third party who is acting as a business (who might then sell online). They are significantly different than the 2003 rules, and as written will have a significant effect on things like availability on eBay.
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Post by: pretre
Guess we will see in 3 months when this thread rolls around again.
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Post by: Orktavius
Bully my ass....none of you are interested in actually protecting the 'little guy' or you'd be buying all your models from your LOCAL independent game store not some online discounter.
Admit the truth, the only thing you want is CHEAP MODELS you don't give a rats ass about the little guy, or the independents, you only care that you get your hobby for a little less than the standard retail price.
News flash, GW going after all the online discounters who don't have to pay for all the staffing and overhead of your actual local independent is called PROTECTING THE LITTLE GUY. Yeah, they are forcing you to buy online from their store...at full retail price none the less... but you all have the option of walking into an actual local independent to pick your models up. If you DON'T have a local independent around then apologies as you are an unintended victim.
Making life rough for webstores is not GW screwing over it's customers. Despite what web store running independents are telling these polices are to protect their independent retailers by making sure they don't have to lose business to online discounters with far lower staffing and overhead costs.
As for Australia.....damn near everything there is 2-2.5x more expensive than it is in Canada why the hell would you think Toy soldiers would be different?
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Post by: jonolikespie
Orktavius wrote:Bully my ass....none of you are interested in actually protecting the 'little guy' or you'd be buying all your models from your LOCAL independent game store not some online discounter.
This has come up more than once, the answer is always that people do buy from their FLGS, but not everyone has a local store. Setting aside the issue that GWs grand plan is to cut out those FLGSs people who don't have one nearby should have a choice other than to buy from GW direct or drive several hours to the nearest store.
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Post by: daedalus
pretre wrote:Guess we will see in 3 months when this thread rolls around again.
You misspelled "two weeks".
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Post by: fullheadofhair
Orktavius wrote:Bully my ass....none of you are interested in actually protecting the 'little guy' or you'd be buying all your models from your LOCAL independent game store not some online discounter.
Admit the truth, the only thing you want is CHEAP MODELS you don't give a rats ass about the little guy, or the independents, you only care that you get your hobby for a little less than the standard retail price.
News flash, GW going after all the online discounters who don't have to pay for all the staffing and overhead of your actual local independent is called PROTECTING THE LITTLE GUY. Yeah, they are forcing you to buy online from their store...at full retail price none the less... but you all have the option of walking into an actual local independent to pick your models up. If you DON'T have a local independent around then apologies as you are an unintended victim.
Making life rough for webstores is not GW screwing over it's customers. Despite what web store running independents are telling these polices are to protect their independent retailers by making sure they don't have to lose business to online discounters with far lower staffing and overhead costs.
As for Australia.....damn near everything there is 2-2.5x more expensive than it is in Canada why the hell would you think Toy soldiers would be different?
As annoying as this is, he does have a very valid point, How many of us have been in a non GW FLGS and seen or heard people buying cheap on line and then happily using the facilities for free. If on-online because more expensive maybe people will shop more at their FLGS.
I do however disagree that this is GW intention. They just aren't that smart - personal experience.
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Post by: TheMostSlyFox
Reading this makes me feel like all is lost in the moral standards of today. Honestly: the people that are stout defenders of this insane policy, or even passive about the current situation, are those that continue to worsen the situation. How can you love a game that is fueled by the ignorance of it's consumer base and built up by a company with a blatant disregard for it's community? It's pure insanity!
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Post by: JWhex
If GW was really interested in protecting the "little guy" they would not have put a $500 per month restriction on the availability of their direct order items (1800 items).
A call for a boycott on a forum is not very useful because people that hate GW already have quit buying and people that enjoy the hobby just arent likely to stop buying GW products.
Maybe GW has the right idea about gamers, after all they have been selling some of those finecast heralds for nearly $25 each, which I consider beyond insanely expensive. As long as people are willing to pay an ever increasing price, you can bet it will keep going up.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
 TheMostSlyFox wrote:Reading this makes me feel like all is lost in the moral standards of today. Honestly: the people that are stout defenders of this insane policy, or even passive about the current situation, are those that continue to worsen the situation. How can you love a game that is fueled by the ignorance of it's consumer base and built up by a company with a blatant disregard for it's community? It's pure insanity!
"Love" - I am simply not that emotional involved in making my purchases of toy soldiers. Regardless of where you get your minis you are supporting GW profits - that is a simple fact of life. unless you stop buying from GW you are part of the problem you are complaining about.
I have stopped buying GW products and am just off loading everything I own. Not because I have an issue with GW (which I do btw) but because I hate 6th and hate 8th and so no longer play.
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Post by: Scipio Africanus
Well no, Your nose is not covered now that it is missing.  Automatically Appended Next Post: Orktavius wrote:Bully my ass....none of you are interested in actually protecting the 'little guy' or you'd be buying all your models from your LOCAL independent game store not some online discounter.
Admit the truth, the only thing you want is CHEAP MODELS you don't give a rats ass about the little guy, or the independents, you only care that you get your hobby for a little less than the standard retail price.
News flash, GW going after all the online discounters who don't have to pay for all the staffing and overhead of your actual local independent is called PROTECTING THE LITTLE GUY. Yeah, they are forcing you to buy online from their store...at full retail price none the less... but you all have the option of walking into an actual local independent to pick your models up. If you DON'T have a local independent around then apologies as you are an unintended victim.
Making life rough for webstores is not GW screwing over it's customers. Despite what web store running independents are telling these polices are to protect their independent retailers by making sure they don't have to lose business to online discounters with far lower staffing and overhead costs.
As for Australia.....damn near everything there is 2-2.5x more expensive than it is in Canada why the hell would you think Toy soldiers would be different?
butthurt on a forum, are we?
The problem in australia is centerlink; since everyone (even the jobless) has a little money to make the world go round, everything is just that little more expensive.
That doesn't help us that don't get anything from centerlink, mind you. We're "Rich".
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Post by: Orktavius
JWhex wrote:If GW was really interested in protecting the "little guy" they would not have put a $500 per month restriction on the availability of their direct order items (1800 items).
A call for a boycott on a forum is not very useful because people that hate GW already have quit buying and people that enjoy the hobby just arent likely to stop buying GW products.
Maybe GW has the right idea about gamers, after all they have been selling some of those finecast heralds for nearly $25 each, which I consider beyond insanely expensive. As long as people are willing to pay an ever increasing price, you can bet it will keep going up.
How many non webstore independents do you think sell more than $500 a month worth of characters and other direct order stuff? The vast majority of stuff on the direct order list are items that really don't move all that quickly in the first place. As for GW not being smart enough to protect it's brick and mortar independents....your letting your blind hate get in the way as you seem to forget that years ago GW changed the requirement for stockists so that it REQUIRED them to have a proper commercial brick and mortar presence. Only reason for this was to end the guys selling GW product out of their basement on the web with virtually no overhead in order to protect their legitimate independents.
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Post by: GreySkull
I can see where he's coming from, The Game Closet in Waco stopped carrying a lot of GW products because people are getting sick of their attitude problem. I understand GW would want to protect their interests, but this is becoming ludicrous. GW is doing the same thing TSR did back in the eighties and 90s: overprotecting, over-charging, and under-appreciating their products and fanbase.
TSR really shot itself in the foot when they started threatening legal action against fan-based sites, even when said sites put all the legalese right out in the open on the front page. I guess they thought their fans would stick with it even though they were being abused by the very company they'd come to love. I also guess that's why they had to call Gary Gygax (Praise His Name!) back to clean house, so to speak. Suffice to say, if they hadn't done that, TSR would have been selling it's products on the streets.
That's my two cents.
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Post by: Byte
Orktavius wrote:Bully my ass....none of you are interested in actually protecting the 'little guy' or you'd be buying all your models from your LOCAL independent game store not some online discounter.
Admit the truth, the only thing you want is CHEAP MODELS you don't give a rats ass about the little guy, or the independents, you only care that you get your hobby for a little less than the standard retail price.
News flash, GW going after all the online discounters who don't have to pay for all the staffing and overhead of your actual local independent is called PROTECTING THE LITTLE GUY. Yeah, they are forcing you to buy online from their store...at full retail price none the less... but you all have the option of walking into an actual local independent to pick your models up. If you DON'T have a local independent around then apologies as you are an unintended victim.
Making life rough for webstores is not GW screwing over it's customers. Despite what web store running independents are telling these polices are to protect their independent retailers by making sure they don't have to lose business to online discounters with far lower staffing and overhead costs.
As for Australia.....damn near everything there is 2-2.5x more expensive than it is in Canada why the hell would you think Toy soldiers would be different?
I pay full retail for my GW. At my FLGS. I have no advantage buying at my store other than giving them business and getting to get my hands on what I buy in real time(limited selection of course, I do order stuff through them as well).
I never buy retail bits, anywhere. I've never ordered any GW online.
My point is, do I represent a segment of other gamers? Should I get mad at my FLGS because they never discount? Should I rage?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Orktavius wrote:Bully my ass....none of you are interested in actually protecting the 'little guy' or you'd be buying all your models from your LOCAL independent game store not some online discounter.
Friend of mine saw a post on 4Chan that was similar to yours.
It went a little something like this:
"You should be buying from your LGS anyway!"
"I'm Australian. Feth you."
Orktavious - I'm Australian. Guess the rest.
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Post by: scarletsquig
You're not really boycotting GW until you start buying some other gaming systems models and playing their games.
Anything else is just posing.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Nah I'm pretty sure that you don't need to buy something different to boycott a product. That'd just be "buying something different", and not a boycott.
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Post by: Pacific
No, it would just be one way of boycotting..
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Post by: mattyrm
 scarletsquig wrote:You're not really boycotting GW until you start buying some other gaming systems models and playing their games.
Anything else is just posing.
Mate, that's the daftest thing I've read all day.
If I give up wargaming, and take up basketball instead, I've entirety boycotted GW.
Admit it, your just after more mantic sales right? Automatically Appended Next Post: TheMostSlyFox wrote:Reading this makes me feel like all is lost in the moral standards of today. Honestly: the people that are stout defenders of this insane policy, or even.......
So.. Numerous genocides, the Catholic Church condemning millions to death by AIDS, and Muslims throwing acid in little girls faces didn't make you lose your faith in society's moral standards, it was people not being that bothered about games workshop? :-D
Many of us agree with you.. We just don't get that bent out of shape about it because there are bigger things in the world than wargaming. Perhaps it's your moral compass that's broken.
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Post by: Orktavius
I'd be more sympathetic to the plight of Australian gamers HSBC if I didn't already know you pay so much fething more for EVERYTHING not just toy soldiers. I know your minimum wage being nearly double mine isn't the only factor affecting price...but that's a damn big factor and leave me wondering what tariff's GW get's nailed with when they ship in product...for instance in Canada GW get's nailed with a 15% tax for importing goods which goes a long way to explaining why I pay $12 for a book that's only $8 in the US.
Corporate greed isn't the only bloody explanation and I'll bet there's a LOT of things you pay a similar amount more for than just GW.
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Post by: -Loki-
Orktavius wrote:I'd be more sympathetic to the plight of Australian gamers HSBC if I didn't already know you pay so much fething more for EVERYTHING not just toy soldiers.
Except companies who actually give a gak are trying to get prices at parity with the US. You cite toy soldiers? I'll cite Corvus Belli. My FLGS doesn't discount it, and yet I only pay slightly above the direct EUR exchange rate. And they're covering importing and store overheads with that. Yes, some companies charge us more. A nice recent example is last week, Adobe, Apple and Microsoft were called before the sumpreme court to defend their pricing. They were all nice and honest about it. Apple cited iTunes overpricing as out of their control - pricing is set by the music and movie industires. Fair enough. Their hardware? It's nearly at parity here with the US. Like Corvus Belli, I'd rate them as a company that cares about Australian consumers, for all the flak they get. Adobe and Microsoft? Yeah, they had some nice words that I wouldn't be surprised to hear from GW. ''Yes, we use geoblocked prices in Australia, suck gak. Pay it or don't, your average wage is higher'. And that's really the only reply expected - when it's cheaper to fly to Los Angeles and buy the most recent Creative Suite and fly home than it is to buy locally, it's hard to defend. Australians don't pay more for everything. A lot of products have been on a nice downward spiral in terms of cost over the last couple of years - even DVDs, Blu Rays and Music have dropped about 30%, and we know how much those industries care about anything but money. Some industries and outlying companies are refusing to do it. GW is one of them, and their excuses are the same bull gak Adobe and Microsoft pull. Here's a tip - if our average wage is higher, but our cost of living is higher still, what makes you think the average Australian has the same amount of money to spend on hobbies as the average American? Higher wages only have a positive affect if the cost of living is lower.
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Post by: Nucflash
Orktavius wrote:Bully my ass....none of you are interested in actually protecting the 'little guy' or you'd be buying all your models from your LOCAL independent game store not some online discounter.
Admit the truth, the only thing you want is CHEAP MODELS you don't give a rats ass about the little guy, or the independents, you only care that you get your hobby for a little less than the standard retail price.
News flash, GW going after all the online discounters who don't have to pay for all the staffing and overhead of your actual local independent is called PROTECTING THE LITTLE GUY. Yeah, they are forcing you to buy online from their store...at full retail price none the less... but you all have the option of walking into an actual local independent to pick your models up. If you DON'T have a local independent around then apologies as you are an unintended victim.
Making life rough for webstores is not GW screwing over it's customers. Despite what web store running independents are telling these polices are to protect their independent retailers by making sure they don't have to lose business to online discounters with far lower staffing and overhead costs.
As for Australia.....damn near everything there is 2-2.5x more expensive than it is in Canada why the hell would you think Toy soldiers would be different?
Its a big world my friend and not everyone lives in a country that can suport an endless amount of LGS.. We dont have many stores around as it is. And those that we have that are independet have to survive on internet sales to survive. We are about 9 million people in sweden, our hole population is about the same as the City of New York. If you screw with the internet sales, many of the stores here even in our larger citys will close down. Those that we have now are in cheaper off locations, because the hobby is not large enough with so few people. So what will remain is probably Games workshops own store. This is one of the reasons I back alternative games.. Because if enough people start buying other games then GW, the stores here can keep their doors open... But as it is now most of them wont survive without the GW products.. The largest gaming venue we have in stockholm, survive on being an Internet caffe/and Gaming venue for alot of diffrent games, Magic/boardgames/ RPGs etc. They no longer sell GW products in their little store, and I think they survive becuse of the local klubbs giving them money so they have a place to play. We have good goverment sponsored grants for groups that do many diffrent things here in sweden. And that is how many of our gaming communitys survive...
Now I ask you how is this good for the Hobby?? If most of the places where you could find the miniatures for table-top gaming get shut down and put out of business??
....
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Post by: HoverBoy
Actually there is no wargaming store in my country, we have to buy stuff online via retailers or GW's site, and we have to find our own places to play. Still if there was a local store i'd gladly buy from there if it meant i have a place where i can just walk in and play.
So all of you complaining about local stores not giving you discounts, you just don't know how good you all have it.
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Post by: -Loki-
HoverBoy wrote:Actually there is no wargaming store in my country, we have to buy stuff online via retailers or GW's site, and we have to find our own places to play. Still if there was a local store i'd gladly buy from there if it meant i have a place where i can just walk in and play.
So all of you complaining about local stores not giving you discounts, you just don't know how good you all have it.
Isn't there one in Nodnol?
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Post by: HoverBoy
Wherever that place you're mentioning is, it isn't in Bulgaria.
EDIT: Waaait i get it, mildly funny, pretty obscure.
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Post by: -Loki-
I didn't know Red Dwarf was obscure in geek circles.
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Post by: Sergeant Horse
I wish someone would show me where this $500 limit on direct is, I can't find it anywhere in my Trade terms.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
That is the limit the MWG said they had on the items outside of the core movers. Likely it isn't in any particular set of trade terms and is leveraged against companies which move a lot of those products (as they moved $2500-5000 worth of those items a month).
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Post by: Boomstick
I support GW and their right to sell what they design and what they make how they please. Its their product. Not saying i agree with it but hold them to no obligation other than provide a product i enjoy and will continue to enjoy for many years to come.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Boomstick wrote:I support GW and their right to sell what they design and what they make how they please. Its their product. Not saying i agree with it but hold them to no obligation other than provide a product i enjoy and will continue to enjoy for many years to come.
I don't support it but I agree GW are allowed to do whatever they want with their products. But that fact doesn't mean I like what they do with their product, and if I don't like it odds are I won't buy it.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Boomstick wrote:I support GW and their right to sell what they design and what they make how they please. Its their product. Not saying i agree with it but hold them to no obligation other than provide a product i enjoy and will continue to enjoy for many years to come.
I don't think anyone is contesting their "right" to sell what they design how they please, rather just voicing displeasure in what they are doing. I think a person should be able to do pretty much anything they want - including stupid and wreckless things. I might say, you don't want to jump off that bridge...the water is too shallow. If they continue to jump, I am not going to stop them. However, because it was their right to be dumb - does that mean I shouldn't have told them that the water is too shallow?
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Post by: Boomstick
I agree that they should be told its a mistake if people believe that but the online retailers deserve no protection or special treatment when the company who has made their livelihood possible in many cases makes a decision they believe will keep their own business from failing. Id rather 100's of independents close over GW closing so no i dont believe in online store freedom i believe in GWs freedom to do what they want to protect their interests even if i dont agree with them, which i dont.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Boomstick wrote:I agree that they should be told its a mistake if people believe that but the online retailers deserve no protection or special treatment when the company who has made their livelihood possible in many cases makes a decision they believe will keep their own business from failing. Id rather 100's of independents close over GW closing so no i dont believe in online store freedom i believe in GWs freedom to do what they want to protect their interests even if i dont agree with them.
That issue though goes to a more complicated one. GW has chosen to be both a manufacturer and a retailer. As such, their manufacturing arm behaves under certain rules and restrictions and their retail arm behaves under other rules and restrictions. If they decide that they should use the leverage of their manufacturing arm to prop up their retail arm - that is generally illegal in most civilized countries. If they are having a hard time competing, they could stop independent sales completely or they can stop their retail arm activities. Both will solve the problem without resulting to tactics which are not allowed under trade rules.
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Post by: Sergeant Horse
Sean_OBrien wrote:That is the limit the MWG said they had on the items outside of the core movers. Likely it isn't in any particular set of trade terms and is leveraged against companies which move a lot of those products (as they moved $2500-5000 worth of those items a month).
TBH, I think they made that part up, because I can't find it anywhere, and I sell easily $1500-$2000 a month on Direct items
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
 Sergeant Horse wrote: Sean_OBrien wrote:That is the limit the MWG said they had on the items outside of the core movers. Likely it isn't in any particular set of trade terms and is leveraged against companies which move a lot of those products (as they moved $2500-5000 worth of those items a month).
TBH, I think they made that part up, because I can't find it anywhere, and I sell easily $1500-$2000 a month on Direct items
You probably won't find it...until you send in an order for $2000 worth of goods and receive a box with $500 worth of goods. It actually makes sense given the rest of the information that GW has provided (both the trade terms and comments made in the financial reports). They want you to send them to the GW website or a GW store where they sell on a higher margin than they do when dealing with you. Like the rest of these terms though - we will see the impact in a few months time.
I don't see any reason why MWG would have added that limit if it didn't exist though. It adds nothing to the story, and there was already enough to vent over if they wanted to with direct only items that LGS could not even special order.
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Post by: Sergeant Horse
Sean_OBrien wrote: Sergeant Horse wrote: Sean_OBrien wrote:That is the limit the MWG said they had on the items outside of the core movers. Likely it isn't in any particular set of trade terms and is leveraged against companies which move a lot of those products (as they moved $2500-5000 worth of those items a month).
TBH, I think they made that part up, because I can't find it anywhere, and I sell easily $1500-$2000 a month on Direct items
You probably won't find it...until you send in an order for $2000 worth of goods and receive a box with $500 worth of goods. It actually makes sense given the rest of the information that GW has provided (both the trade terms and comments made in the financial reports). They want you to send them to the GW website or a GW store where they sell on a higher margin than they do when dealing with you. Like the rest of these terms though - we will see the impact in a few months time.
I don't see any reason why MWG would have added that limit if it didn't exist though. It adds nothing to the story, and there was already enough to vent over if they wanted to with direct only items that LGS could not even special order.
It doesn't make sense to have arbitrary rules like that, since without them being in the Policy, they have no right to enforce it. I've emailed my rep so I guess I'll find out tomorrow.
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Post by: Grot 6
Boomstick wrote:I agree that they should be told its a mistake if people believe that but the online retailers deserve no protection or special treatment when the company who has made their livelihood possible in many cases makes a decision they believe will keep their own business from failing. Id rather 100's of independents close over GW closing so no i dont believe in online store freedom i believe in GWs freedom to do what they want to protect their interests even if i dont agree with them, which i dont.
The need of the one, and all that, at the expense of everyone else is not a business decision. It's the tool of a tyrant to keep themselves in power. The faster they go to the torch, the better for the rest of us. I'd rater 1 GW go up in flames the the hundreds of LGS's, AND thier customer base, along with the added on gaming communities that gw indoctrination centers/shops rip apart and leave empty disillusioned husks of thier former selves.
Aside from the fact that these "shops" are mismanaged car salesmen, they are hostile territory to gaming. They can't fail fast enough to divert funds to the yearly dividends.
What exactly are they for when they remove thier prime mission in life? Money pits.
Stable growing gaming communities are more important then Wort and Kirby's retirement funds.
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Post by: Empchild
Just to point out a small fact,as I have owned several stores both internet and B&M, if you boycott GW and seeing as their product is a huge seller for a lot of business's would you in fact be screwing over those internet stores and LGS? I say this because even though I sell other stuff GW is still my top seller so if my customers said "no more GW" then in fact they would be hurting me as well. It's no different then when a large corp looses money they have to do lay offs. You think you are hurting the company but in fact the company is hurting the people who depend on it. If you want to boycott then buy just through those stores don't buy through GW. That will send more of a message then you think.
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Post by: Azreal13
 Empchild wrote:Just to point out a small fact,as I have owned several stores both internet and B&M, if you boycott GW and seeing as their product is a huge seller for a lot of business's would you in fact be screwing over those internet stores and LGS? I say this because even though I sell other stuff GW is still my top seller so if my customers said "no more GW" then in fact they would be hurting me as well. It's no different then when a large corp looses money they have to do lay offs. You think you are hurting the company but in fact the company is hurting the people who depend on it. If you want to boycott then buy just through those stores don't buy through GW. That will send more of a message then you think.
That's assuming they said 'no more GW' and bought nothing more. I think the majority are saying 'no more GW, lets have a closer look at that Infinity/Malifaux/Warmahordes' so I would hope you'd merely see an alteration to the balance of your sales, rather than a drop.
I would also advocate purchasing through independents whenever possible too, as you say, as receiving money from wholesale sales rather than retail will make a heck of a difference to GW's bottom line (~40%?)
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Post by: Empchild
A lot of people don't buy other stuff as much and i already buy from a distributor as i don't like dealing with GW plus i am a bits seller so you know.
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Post by: TheMostSlyFox
The funny thing is, the online retailers for the most part brought in the majority of GW's brand recognition. What has GW done to advertise their products other than open more demo stores?
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Post by: aosol
Meh, play more Warmahordes.
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Post by: Empchild
That's not really an answer, though I personally love PP as they only do their main bit of seller through Distribution. They are great at supporting events; the only real problem is they are bad at restocking.
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Post by: Mad4Minis
My LGS has stopped carrying GW products completely. Last time I went in the GW section had been taken over by an expanded PP section. What little GW product was still left was in a tiny corner, with around 50% discount on it. We asked the owner what was up, he said GW was so terrible to deal with on a retailer level that they decided not to carry any of their products anymore. Add to that the fact that while 40k still was a presence in the local gaming scene its losing ground to WM/H rapidly.
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Post by: Empchild
 Mad4Minis wrote:My LGS has stopped carrying GW products completely. Last time I went in the GW section had been taken over by an expanded PP section. What little GW product was still left was in a tiny corner, with around 50% discount on it. We asked the owner what was up, he said GW was so terrible to deal with on a retailer level that they decided not to carry any of their products anymore. Add to that the fact that while 40k still was a presence in the local gaming scene its losing ground to WM/H rapidly.
That's great to hear actually but it takes time inventory wise to change over. If I were to drop all of my product and go to PP I would lose money. That said Batman Arkham sales are on the rise and those minis rock so Cheers!
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Post by: Byte
Heck, play more chess. 
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Hopscotch!
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Post by: Bullockist
Soggy Sayo!
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Post by: Sergeant Horse
Mad4Minis wrote:My LGS has stopped carrying GW products completely. Last time I went in the GW section had been taken over by an expanded PP section. What little GW product was still left was in a tiny corner, with around 50% discount on it. We asked the owner what was up, he said GW was so terrible to deal with on a retailer level that they decided not to carry any of their products anymore. Add to that the fact that while 40k still was a presence in the local gaming scene its losing ground to WM/H rapidly.
ask him if he wants to bulk clearance it to Georgia,
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Post by: Mad4Minis
Sergeant Horse wrote: Mad4Minis wrote:My LGS has stopped carrying GW products completely. Last time I went in the GW section had been taken over by an expanded PP section. What little GW product was still left was in a tiny corner, with around 50% discount on it. We asked the owner what was up, he said GW was so terrible to deal with on a retailer level that they decided not to carry any of their products anymore. Add to that the fact that while 40k still was a presence in the local gaming scene its losing ground to WM/H rapidly.
ask him if he wants to bulk clearance it to Georgia,
Last time I was in there they had maybe 20 items left, and that was several weeks ago. Im sure its all gone now. It was almost a shame I had decided not to play 40k, I could have picked up some Tau stuff cheap...or should I say for about the price they really should be.
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Post by: Orktavius
TheMostSlyFox wrote:The funny thing is, the online retailers for the most part brought in the majority of GW's brand recognition. What has GW done to advertise their products other than open more demo stores?
The open store demo's do more for growing the hobby than any online retailer has ever done. Nobody (or rather no significant number) of people get into a hobby like ours just because they seen it on a website. You know what brings people into the hobby? Knowing other people in the hobby, seeing others enjoying their hobby or doing an introductory activity like a demo game at a GW store or an independent. The last one is especially effective when done right.
Know what online sellers are like? It's like that guy you see every week along the side of the road selling golf balls out of the back of his car. He sells golf balls to golfers but no one takes up golf because he's there.
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Post by: Nucflash
Empchild wrote:A lot of people don't buy other stuff as much and i already buy from a distributor as i don't like dealing with GW plus i am a bits seller so you know.
You missed the point what azreal13 was making??
More and more people are in Fact "buying alot of other stuff". If you want to play Table-top wargames you need someone to play with right? The fact that alot of the gaming clubs, Including the one I belong to have stoped playing Games Workshops games, will make an impact in the long run. We activly try our best to steer people away from games workshop.
Many other clubs in my local area are doing the same.. we keep in contact you see "because despite GWs best efforts to break the gaming Communitys They have Failed" more and more people are leaving the GW side of the hobby. So instead of you selling GW products you will start selling other things insdead.. If you want to be a part of the solution instead of the problem, start promoting other games more through your Retail store. Stop kissing up to GW, because your customers have in the past years slowly started to move away from them... and in the past year it has started trickling into a flood.....
We the communites and customers of these games are abandoning the GWTATANIC.. if you want to stay on board and sink with the ship be my guest.. but I sugest you come along with the rest of us in the lifeboats.. Privateer Press has a really wellmade one that has Great balance and will hold up in stormy seas..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orktavius wrote: TheMostSlyFox wrote:The funny thing is, the online retailers for the most part brought in the majority of GW's brand recognition. What has GW done to advertise their products other than open more demo stores?
The open store demo's do more for growing the hobby than any online retailer has ever done. Nobody (or rather no significant number) of people get into a hobby like ours just because they seen it on a website. You know what brings people into the hobby? Knowing other people in the hobby, seeing others enjoying their hobby or doing an introductory activity like a demo game at a GW store or an independent. The last one is especially effective when done right.
Know what online sellers are like? It's like that guy you see every week along the side of the road selling golf balls out of the back of his car. He sells golf balls to golfers but no one takes up golf because he's there.
You are correct here, and this is where games workshop are in trubble. Because they do not suport their community past trying to push Armyboxes on little childrean.. There is alot more happenings, events and gatherings with all the other games but nobody, does anything mayor with GWs products.. It feels really dead to be honest.. You cant build a lasting community with 10-12 year old little kidds.. You need to suport the older players also to keep the hobby alive past the inital stage of getting into it.. Automatically Appended Next Post: TheMostSlyFox wrote:Reading this makes me feel like all is lost in the moral standards of today. Honestly: the people that are stout defenders of this insane policy, or even passive about the current situation, are those that continue to worsen the situation. How can you love a game that is fueled by the ignorance of it's consumer base and built up by a company with a blatant disregard for it's community? It's pure insanity!
I agree 100%. Sadly I find it hard to communicate with people that are die hard GW Fanboys.. it feels like they have been brainwashed or something haha.. But I havent found one single person who was really interested in the hobby, painting and playing who hasent converted away from GW, if you put enough pressure on them. When you finaly get them to give another game a chans, they always leave GW behind... Some are very reluctant at first.. And you have to persuade them, some times for weeks, even months... But in the end I rescue them. You just have to deprogram them like you do with any cult member. Gain there trust, then slowly showing them the Error of their ways..
But there is no better feeling to see them play a new game for the first time, and you see that light that had gone out of there eyes (after years of abuse from GW) come back. And they start having fun again with the hobby.. That is why its worth putting alot of time and energy into getting people away from Games Workshop.
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Post by: nkelsch
 Nucflash wrote:
I agree 100%. Sadly I find it hard to communicate with people that are die hard GW Fanboys.. it feels like they have been brainwashed or something haha.. But I havent found one single person who was really interested in the hobby, painting and playing who hasent converted away from GW, if you put enough pressure on them. When you finaly get them to give another game a chans, they always leave GW behind... Some are very reluctant at first.. And you have to persuade them, some times for weeks, even months... But in the end I rescue them. You just have to deprogram them like you do with any cult member. Gain there trust, then slowly showing them the Error of their ways..
But there is no better feeling to see them play a new game for the first time, and you see that light that had gone out of there eyes (after years of abuse from GW) come back. And they start having fun again with the hobby.. That is why its worth putting alot of time and energy into getting people away from Games Workshop.
What a utter load of garbage. Way to paint with a broad brush.
How is 'pressuring' someone through what sounds like abuse and bullying any better than them being in a Cult?
I enjoy wargaming, Miniature painting and Dungeon roleplaying. I still buy GW models and Play 40k. I have no plans to 'leave 40k behind' because I enjoy 40k, I like GW's models, I like the 3rd party models and it is what the events that I play at support. I do not need to be rescued, I do not need to be persuaded.
Warmahordes has almost no FACTIONS I enjoy the look of the models. I am not playing a game with models I do not want to paint. PP has nice models and sculpts, I care almost Zero for price as I buy models way more expensive than GW/ PP when I like the model, but I simply do not care for the PP models. I own a few 'minions' because they made nice Dungeon monsters but I barley own enough to play and I did not enjoy the game.
*I don't care about internet stores. I try to 'Pay where I play' or buy from vendors who support the events and tourneys I attend. Those people will get my money unaffected by this policy.
*I don't care about Bitz dealers, especially ones who used their Trade discount to get ahead. I don't have a problem paying extra for bitz, and most bitz I need are Ork-related which I can trade pretty easily with my Ork Friends. We all have epic bitz boxes. Also, 3rd party ork dealers are numerous and in high demand.
*I don't care about exporters. I know many other products who have similar policies and I don't think it is unreasonable or unfair. Sure it hurts some people, but GW US treats me as a consumer pretty well and has for 15 years. I get good services from my local GW, good product and places to game. These negative policies have had almost zero negative impact on me personally and where I live.
The only policy which I care about is the 500$ limit for direct sales. Which I feel will be loosened post-policy as they probably felt a large amount of trade sales were generated from internet sales. I think when retailers show they have that much sales from in-store purchases, they will change the policy for those stores. They may not, who knows but I am deferring to my FLGS owners who some have said this is good for them. Who am I to disagree with them? I have already written GW to tell them that I think they should reconsider limiting their direct sales limit (which I notice was absent from the letter circulating the internet). I will sit and wait to see what happens.
I do not have a problem with people taking their money elsewhere. I do find the posting history of most of the most staunch anti GW people to also be very much anti-'pay where you play' and they seem to be shallow in their convictions and will abandon a store the second someone else has a 1% cheaper deep discount. I take their complaints with a grain of salt.
But I don't need to be 'bullied' into changing gaming systems by some new 'cult' who deems anyone who is not with them is against them. There is more than one way to form an opinion, and not everyone who disagrees with you is a cult fanboi who needs to be rescued to join some new mindless cult.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
nkelsch wrote:I do find the posting history of most of the most staunch anti GW people to also be very much anti-'pay where you play' and they seem to be shallow in their convictions and will abandon a store the second someone else has a 1% cheaper deep discount. I take their complaints with a grain of salt.
And for the majority of gamers who play at home...why should they pay to upkeep something that adds nothing to their experience - or for that matter be forced to subsidize a GW store on the other side of the world? Given the only known figures that have ever been released on the general game market (WotC's Adventure Game Survey) - there is no reason to think that a large portion of people actually game in stores. They game at home. People have also moved away from shopping for these sorts of things in stores as shopping online provides a better experience (no need to fumble through miscategorized pegs of blister packs looking for that one figure you are after or dealing with pushy sales people...or for the female gamers, leering creepy store patrons).
While I have nothing against game stores myself - I also have nothing which puts them in a particular high regard either. The employees that they have are no more or less important to me than the employees that Neal employs in New York or Steve employs in St Louis. While I do think they are important first contact for a lot of gamers - they can adapt and survive by providing additional value above and beyond a traditional game store...not through core product pricing, but things like organized play for those who enjoy tournaments and the like.
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Post by: jonolikespie
nkelsch wrote:The only policy which I care about is the 500$ limit for direct sales. Which I feel will be loosened post-policy as they probably felt a large amount of trade sales were generated from internet sales. I think when retailers show they have that much sales from in-store purchases, they will change the policy for those stores. They may not, who knows but I am deferring to my FLGS owners who some have said this is good for them. Who am I to disagree with them? I have already written GW to tell them that I think they should reconsider limiting their direct sales limit (which I notice was absent from the letter circulating the internet). I will sit and wait to see what happens.
I think you're giving games workshop way too much credit here. You seem to think the reasons for these new trade terms are.. idk, something not sinister.
GW will not alter this limit after the fact, they WANT to stop people buying from their preferred retailer. They are happy to cut out every FLGS if it drives half of those stores' customers to buy GW direct, even if the other half quit the hobby, because THEY WILL STILL EARN MORE MONEY THAT WAY. Trade sales are at 55% or so of RRP, GW look at those sales and think "there is no reason we shouldn't be selling those for full price."
GW want to replace all the FLGS in the US with 800 of their own stores (like they have in the UK) and force you to buy direct from them to cut out the "freeloading" FLGS.
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Post by: nkelsch
Sean_OBrien wrote:nkelsch wrote:I do find the posting history of most of the most staunch anti GW people to also be very much anti-'pay where you play' and they seem to be shallow in their convictions and will abandon a store the second someone else has a 1% cheaper deep discount. I take their complaints with a grain of salt.
And for the majority of gamers who play at home...why should they pay to upkeep something that adds nothing to their experience - or for that matter be forced to subsidize a GW store on the other side of the world? Given the only known figures that have ever been released on the general game market (WotC's Adventure Game Survey) - there is no reason to think that a large portion of people actually game in stores. They game at home. People have also moved away from shopping for these sorts of things in stores as shopping online provides a better experience (no need to fumble through miscategorized pegs of blister packs looking for that one figure you are after or dealing with pushy sales people...or for the female gamers, leering creepy store patrons).
While I have nothing against game stores myself - I also have nothing which puts them in a particular high regard either. The employees that they have are no more or less important to me than the employees that Neal employs in New York or Steve employs in St Louis. While I do think they are important first contact for a lot of gamers - they can adapt and survive by providing additional value above and beyond a traditional game store...not through core product pricing, but things like organized play for those who enjoy tournaments and the like.
As long as you don't game at those stores you don't buy from, then there is no problem. Lots of people prepare meals and eat at home. The problem is when people begin making bag lunches and want to go eat at a restaurant for free.
If you play in a store, then pay at the store. If you play at home, then knock yourself out trying to find your awesome discounts. If you discount from the internet, then game in public showing no support or the classic "I bought a snickers bar which is equal to buying 600$ of product here, I support my store" then I have an issue.
Online stores don't provide you a place to play... So bad shelves, out of stock, people looking at your boobs... if you game in public, then regardless you need to support those stores.
I support Neal at the warstore sometimes because he sponsors tourneys I attend on the east coast. I send a portion of my purchasing directly proportionate to the time I spend at Warstore sponsored events. I make an effort to do a big purchase at NOVA every year from the warstore because they help support NOVA. None of these policies stop me from making those purchases.
Time will tell if this is all 'sinister' or not. There is so much hyperbole from hypocritical entitled posters online, Everything is 'sinister' the way they paint it. I am not going to say their policies are not shortsighted or ignorant sometimes... but this from many store owners POV is not a universally a net loss for many of them and I am going to have to talk to and rely on what the stores who support my ability to game say. I find stores who provide good quality gaming succeed, and those who feel entitled to my money fail.
None of this is going to make me quit GW... I have GW 2 stores near me which have great gaming, one being a bunker. Most of the gaming is done by CLUBS in the area who run events at the GW bunker or indy locations and are all independent of FLGS. I am willing to give GW credit that they do support our clubs locally and do have veteran support. They do consist of a portion of my gaming experience and get a portion of my money.
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Post by: BrotherGnaeus
HERESY!
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Post by: wowsmash
How about I pay were choose? My local store is small. There stock is very hit or miss so if its not on the shelf I don't even bother asking for it since it seems like its a big hassle to them whenever I ask but it is the only local store in town. I'm also told that their trade account is to small to order direct which means I can drive to the next town over to order/buy what I want or go online. I don't use Neal's store for the discount. That's just a perk as far as I'm concerned. I use him for the customer service he provides and I feel loyal to his store because of his excellent customer service. Novel idea I know! And GW can't stop me from using his store even though I live in California. Ill simply call my orders in over the phone.
Here's another novel idea. How about we purchase from our preferred retailers and people stop trying to be purchase police.
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Post by: Empchild
Nucflash wrote: Empchild wrote:A lot of people don't buy other stuff as much and i already buy from a distributor as i don't like dealing with GW plus i am a bits seller so you know.
You missed the point what azreal13 was making??
More and more people are in Fact "buying alot of other stuff". If you want to play Table-top wargames you need someone to play with right? The fact that alot of the gaming clubs, Including the one I belong to have stoped playing Games Workshops games, will make an impact in the long run. We activly try our best to steer people away from games workshop.
Many other clubs in my local area are doing the same.. we keep in contact you see "because despite GWs best efforts to break the gaming Communitys They have Failed" more and more people are leaving the GW side of the hobby. So instead of you selling GW products you will start selling other things insdead.. If you want to be a part of the solution instead of the problem, start promoting other games more through your Retail store. Stop kissing up to GW, because your customers have in the past years slowly started to move away from them... and in the past year it has started trickling into a flood.....
We the communites and customers of these games are abandoning the GWTATANIC.. if you want to stay on board and sink with the ship be my guest.. but I sugest you come along with the rest of us in the lifeboats.. Privateer Press has a really wellmade one that has Great balance and will hold up in stormy seas..
Since your new to dakka I'm going to ignore the utter stupidity and insults that you just said. If you had read what I wrote I do get what he's saying the problem is it's not that easy to just switch gears. Games stores aren't rich, we aren't some mega corp that can pull a 180 and be able to absorb the losses. GW is strong here in the U.S and I am glad that your club is playing other things but don't come around insulting store owners saying we are part of the problem when we are just trying to get by. If people want to concentrate on buying other things that's great but until they do most of us will keep our money where it's being made.
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Post by: Sergeant Horse
Also, the $500 limit on Direct orders is incorrect, it does not exist. I don't know why MWG said it.
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Post by: Alfndrate
He did say it was from his trade rep and not in the new trade agreements... it very easily could have been misinformation on the rep's part.
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Post by: Nucflash
nkelsch wrote:
Warmahordes has almost no FACTIONS I enjoy the look of the models. I am not playing a game with models I do not want to paint. PP has nice models and sculpts, I care almost Zero for price as I buy models way more expensive than GW/ PP when I like the model, but I simply do not care for the PP models. I own a few 'minions' because they made nice Dungeon monsters but I barley own enough to play and I did not enjoy the game.
I would not call 11 Factions "almost no Factions"... Compared to GWs W40k 15 FACTIONS, all the Warmachine/hordes Factions are also up to date and playbal, and that is a huge difference. Also among the 15 W40k Factions 6 are space marines in one form or another (gray knights, chaos marines, blood angels etc). So not much diffrence there to be honest..
And yes my Dear you need to get rescude(because clearly someone is feeding you fals information about other games, and that is typical cult behavior).. There are alot of other games that are far better then Games workshop. I can say that compared to Infinity, malifaux, Warmachine/hordes and flames of War... GW is just crap, when it comes to rules and balance. If you like the lore of W40k I do recomend you pick up the Deathwatch RPG from Fantasy Flight games instead. But dont sell yourself short sticking to a Rules-system that is a leftover from the 90s...
And I do undestand that it is hard to walk away from a hobby after years of investments, but you will thank me for it in the end, that is how confident I am in what I am saying. Give other games a chans, get your friends to play them and you will come to undestand what you have been missing...
There is no logical reason at this point in time to stick to playing Games Workshop games... They have been left in the dust by better games for a few years now. And their companys policy is awful towards their playerbase. If they had been decent towards the communites that play their games I would not speak up. But facts are they behave really badly towards their long time customers...
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Post by: Swan-of-War
What's funny is that - with GW's annual price increases - poor selling product actually INCREASES in value.
One way FLG can compete is to not raise retails on their older stock. You paid 2010's cost on it - you don't have to charge 2013 prices. It will appear to your customers that you're giving it a discount, but you're really not losing any more margin than had it sold before the price increase. And since you won't be ordering it again - no worries on the increased costs. Roll that back into something that will sell.
I have no qualms with GW trying to protect their brand. With as much online discounting and gray market sales, I can see how they're hard-pressed to sell things at full retail. Restricting the market so as to protect their brand is sound if they want to raise the perceived "image" - problem is, there's too many of us old-time players who are used to the old prices and/or shopping at a discount that they have to drop us all.
They're almost cleaning the slate. Directing stock so that it's sold at full retail, grooming new customers who don't know any better. All of us who are used to buying it for less can just go pound sand.
This is a great time for smaller companies though -
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Post by: Alfndrate
Nucflash wrote:I would not call 11 Factions "almost no Factions"... Compared to GWs W40k 15 FACTIONS, all the Warmachine/hordes Factions are also up to date and playbal, and that is a huge difference. Also among the 15 W40k Factions 6 are space marines in one form or another (gray knights, chaos marines, blood angels etc). So not much diffrence there to be honest..
Please reread what he said. nkelsch said that there isn't a single faction he enjoys the looks of, which is a different thing entirely from what you think it means.
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Post by: Empchild
 Alfndrate wrote: Nucflash wrote:I would not call 11 Factions "almost no Factions"... Compared to GWs W40k 15 FACTIONS, all the Warmachine/hordes Factions are also up to date and playbal, and that is a huge difference. Also among the 15 W40k Factions 6 are space marines in one form or another (gray knights, chaos marines, blood angels etc). So not much diffrence there to be honest..
Please reread what he said. nkelsch said that there isn't a single faction he enjoys the looks of, which is a different thing entirely from what you think it means.
Alf he's been trolling this whole time and you can never win with a troll.
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Post by: kronk
nkelsch never said there were no Warmahorde factions. He said they were none that he "enjoy(ed) the look of the models." He's saying he doesn't like how they look and won't enjoy painting them.
So, no. He's not been fed "fals" information about other games from a typical cult and needs to "get rescude".
"GW is just crap" is the flame-bait trolling that got you in trouble before.
Good on you for giving credit to FFG's Deathwatch, though. I guess you're more anti-GW than you are anti-40k. Good to know, either way.
There is a "logical reason at this point in time to stick to playing Games Workshop games", though. I enjoy the game and the fluff. I enjoy the Horus Heresy books, and a number of the mini-series they've done so far. I enjoy painting and modeling the Forge World Heresy era models. I also like the look of a lot of the new models that they've been releasing (expect the hideous Daemon Flies).
I hope you have a wonderful time with your Hordes models. I honestly do. I'm not sure why you have to continue to berate the 40k players, though. Sour grapes, I suppose.
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Post by: Alfndrate
Empchild wrote: Alfndrate wrote: Nucflash wrote:I would not call 11 Factions "almost no Factions"... Compared to GWs W40k 15 FACTIONS, all the Warmachine/hordes Factions are also up to date and playbal, and that is a huge difference. Also among the 15 W40k Factions 6 are space marines in one form or another (gray knights, chaos marines, blood angels etc). So not much diffrence there to be honest..
Please reread what he said. nkelsch said that there isn't a single faction he enjoys the looks of, which is a different thing entirely from what you think it means.
Alf he's been trolling this whole time and you can never win with a troll.
I know he has, but there's a difference between grade A trolling and poor reading comprehension. I realize that English probably isn't his native tongue, but there wasn't even an attempt made to read what nkelsch wrote properly. He's just spewing his anti- GW vitriol.
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Post by: nkelsch
kronk wrote:nkelsch never said there were no Warmahorde factions. He said they were none that he "enjoy(ed) the look of the models." He's saying he doesn't like how they look and won't enjoy painting them.
So, no. He's not been fed "fals" information about other games from a typical cult and needs to "get rescude".
" GW is just crap" is the flame-bait trolling that got you in trouble before.
Good on you for giving credit to FFG's Deathwatch, though. I guess you're more anti- GW than you are anti- 40k. Good to know, either way.
There is a "logical reason at this point in time to stick to playing Games Workshop games", though. I enjoy the game and the fluff. I enjoy the Horus Heresy books, and a number of the mini-series they've done so far. I enjoy painting and modeling the Forge World Heresy era models. I also like the look of a lot of the new models that they've been releasing (expect the hideous Daemon Flies).
I hope you have a wonderful time with your Hordes models. I honestly do. I'm not sure why you have to continue to berate the 40k players, though. Sour grapes, I suppose.
Agree., Maybe I should have worded it better.
I simply do not care for any of the factions or how the models look. The only ones that appealed to me were the Minions as they had some good-looking beastmen which fit in with my 'bestiary' models I collect. I have played the game, I have seen the rules. It just doesn't appeal to me.
I also am an Ork collector which I enjoy converting models... which Warmahordes really doesn't do much and leaves modelers like myself out in the cold.
I do play other games, they are just not other WARGAMES. I like GW orks, I like 40k, I enjoy playing at 40k events and I like collecting models which work in my 40k ork army regardless of manufacturer. I do not need to be educated, bullied, abused to rescued until I change to PP.
I could never play another game of 40k ever again and I would still enjoy collecting, painting and modeling ' 40k orks'. I buy the models which I want and like the looks of, and I buy what I think are fun to paint. Right now for me, that is mostly Sci-fi orks and Chibi RPG models with a side of fantasy football and cool looking one-off display pieces.
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Post by: Grot 6
The conversation on GW isn't an easy one. "Why stick with it..." isn't just something people can turn on and off when you've invested as much into it that people have.
Just because GW pulls garbage doesn't give a license to be a tool,either. People have the right to play what they want to. You don't get to degrade them, or run off just because you have issue with of all things- a gaming company.
This is the thing that rubs people the wrong way. You degrade them in one sentence, then talk down to them in the next.
"And yes my Dear you need to get rescude(because clearly someone is feeding you fals information about other games, and that is typical cult behavior).. There are alot of other games that are far better then Games workshop. I can say that compared to Infinity, Malifaux, Warmachine/hordes and Flames of War... GW is just crap, when it comes to rules and balance. If you like the lore of W40k I do recomend you pick up the Deathwatch RPG from Fantasy Flight games instead. But dont sell yourself short sticking to a Rules-system that is a leftover from the 90s...
And I do undestand that it is hard to walk away from a hobby after years of investments, but you will thank me for it in the end, that is how confident I am in what I am saying. Give other games a chance, get your friends to play them and you will come to undestand what you have been missing...
There is no logical reason at this point in time to stick to playing Games Workshop games... They have been left in the dust by better games for a few years now. And their companys policy is awful towards their playerbase. If they had been decent towards the communites that play their games I would not speak up. But facts are they behave really badly towards their long time customers..."
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Post by: Alfndrate
Surprised you didn't just link to his entire posting history. As much as I am not a fan of 40k the game, which I will admit is due to a bad player base at my old FLGS and not being able to really play 6th ed like I could play 5th ed, I'm never going to berate someone for liking a game. Everyone has their own personal reasons for wanting to play a game, and it's personal taste or what they can play in their local area. Nucflash, have you ever heard the phrase you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar? If you can present your argument as to why Warmachine is better than GW's games, and do so in a polite, well thought out manner, people will respond better to your posts instead of just assuming you're trolling, which seems to be a safe assumption at this point. Besides you, I believe most of the people in this thread that want to boycott GW are doing so because they're fed up with the company but do like the game, and want to like it.
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Post by: Nucflash
Empchild wrote: Nucflash wrote: Empchild wrote:A lot of people don't buy other stuff as much and i already buy from a distributor as i don't like dealing with GW plus i am a bits seller so you know.
You missed the point what azreal13 was making??
More and more people are in Fact "buying alot of other stuff". If you want to play Table-top wargames you need someone to play with right? The fact that alot of the gaming clubs, Including the one I belong to have stoped playing Games Workshops games, will make an impact in the long run. We activly try our best to steer people away from games workshop.
Many other clubs in my local area are doing the same.. we keep in contact you see "because despite GWs best efforts to break the gaming Communitys They have Failed" more and more people are leaving the GW side of the hobby. So instead of you selling GW products you will start selling other things insdead.. If you want to be a part of the solution instead of the problem, start promoting other games more through your Retail store. Stop kissing up to GW, because your customers have in the past years slowly started to move away from them... and in the past year it has started trickling into a flood.....
We the communites and customers of these games are abandoning the GWTATANIC.. if you want to stay on board and sink with the ship be my guest.. but I sugest you come along with the rest of us in the lifeboats.. Privateer Press has a really wellmade one that has Great balance and will hold up in stormy seas..
Since your new to dakka I'm going to ignore the utter stupidity and insults that you just said. If you had read what I wrote I do get what he's saying the problem is it's not that easy to just switch gears. Games stores aren't rich, we aren't some mega corp that can pull a 180 and be able to absorb the losses. GW is strong here in the U.S and I am glad that your club is playing other things but don't come around insulting store owners saying we are part of the problem when we are just trying to get by. If people want to concentrate on buying other things that's great but until they do most of us will keep our money where it's being made.
I was just giving you the heads up that things are changing.. and it is going rapidly.. Also as a store owner you can effect things. I have been in the retail business all my life. And you can infact have an impact on your customers. Infact GWs sales people do all they can to get people to buy stuff as soon as they step through the door. On the other hand I do feel you might like Games Workshop games? And you mentioned your Bitz business before (I think you are not allowed to do that anymore so you might want to keep that to yourself).
And I did not Insult you dude, I asked if you did not undestand what was said. And I also told you that at the rate that this is going, the table top scene might look very diffrently in just a few years time. So I would not stockpile to many GW products you because end up with things you cant get ridd off..
And Yes things are moving much faster in the northen european countries, because we are a smaller community and word travels faster.. Also there is no real reason for you to go on the defensive, like you are.. and I personaly feel there is something off with your posts. Most independent retailers I have come in contact with, all over the world, do not think that their business will hurt from selling less GW products. Most of them are hoping for other games to sell more so that they can get ridd of GW... But your original post you made, that said that if we boycott GW, we will hurt the Local LGS, is just not true...
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Post by: kronk
Nucflash wrote:
And Yes things are moving much more faster in the northen european countries, because we are a smaller community and word travels faster..
I'm trying. God help me, I'm trying...
What the feth does this even mean?!?!
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Post by: Sigvatr
Nucflash wrote:
And Yes things are moving much more faster in the northen european countries, because we are a smaller community and word travels faster..
Not for a long time, I heard of this thing called "internet" where people tend to be able to talk to anyone at anytime. Instantly. I'll just google it, hang on.
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Post by: Alfndrate
 Sigvatr wrote: Nucflash wrote:
And Yes things are moving much more faster in the northen european countries, because we are a smaller community and word travels faster..
Not for a long time, I heard of this thing called "internet" where people tend to be able to talk to anyone at anytime. Instantly. I'll just google it, hang on.
Lemme plug in my modem, better make sure mom isn't waiting for an important phone call
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Post by: Nucflash
kronk wrote: Nucflash wrote:
And Yes things are moving much more faster in the northen european countries, because we are a smaller community and word travels faster..
I'm trying. God help me, I'm trying...
What the feth does this even mean?!?!
Keep trolling me dude.. I know you love that.. But in the end I will be right and that is all that counts.. And yes sorry that I can't be bothered spelling everything correctly .
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Post by: nectarprime
I won't outright boycott GW--- I simply like Fantasy too much. I love the models. I love the game. I still try not to buy things directly from GW, as I can usually find a better price somewhere else. But if I can't, well, I'll be buying from them.
"Boycotting" the company and continuing to play their games is just silly IMHO.
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Post by: Alfndrate
Nucflash wrote: kronk wrote: Nucflash wrote: And Yes things are moving much more faster in the northen european countries, because we are a smaller community and word travels faster..
I'm trying. God help me, I'm trying... What the feth does this even mean?!?!
Keep trolling me dude.. I know you love that.. But in the end I will be right and that is all that counts.. And yes sorry that I can't be bothered spelling everything correctly .
He's not trolling, he can't figure out what that sentence says. What moves faster? The transition from playing GW games to playing other games? What does the size of the country and communities have to do with anything? As Sigvatr said, we have this great thing called the internet. You know Kronk is going trolling when he changes his avatar...
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Post by: kronk
Nucflash wrote: kronk wrote: Nucflash wrote:
And Yes things are moving much more faster in the northen european countries, because we are a smaller community and word travels faster..
I'm trying. God help me, I'm trying...
What the feth does this even mean?!?!
Keep trolling me dude..
*Hug and kisses!*
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Post by: Nucflash
Sigvatr wrote: Nucflash wrote:
And Yes things are moving much more faster in the northen european countries, because we are a smaller community and word travels faster..
Not for a long time, I heard of this thing called "internet" where people tend to be able to talk to anyone at anytime. Instantly. I'll just google it, hang on.
Internet do not play games with you.. But when most of the Community has stoped playing GW games in favor of other games.. That is what I mean when I say that word travels faster.. The gaming scene is not as large as you have in germany and the US. So we can impact it much faster..
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Post by: reds8n
You'd best start making some effort with regards to spelling or you won't be posting at all.
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Post by: Nucflash
Alfndrate wrote: Nucflash wrote: kronk wrote: Nucflash wrote:
And Yes things are moving much more faster in the northen european countries, because we are a smaller community and word travels faster..
I'm trying. God help me, I'm trying...
What the feth does this even mean?!?!
Keep trolling me dude.. I know you love that.. But in the end I will be right and that is all that counts.. And yes sorry that I can't be bothered spelling everything correctly .
He's not trolling, he can't figure out what that sentence says. What moves faster? The transition from playing GW games to playing other games? What does the size of the country and communities have to do with anything? As Sigvatr said, we have this great thing called the internet.
You know Kronk is going trolling when he changes his avatar...
Fewer people, much easier to get people off the GW hobby.. that is what I'm saying.. And when all the tournaments and events are for other games then GW, then what people see, and what others are playing is what they will start doing..
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Post by: kronk
Nucflash wrote: Internet do not play games with you.. But when most of the Community has stoped playing GW games in favor of other games.. That is what I mean when I say that word travels faster.. The gaming scene is not as large as you have in germany and the US. So we can impact it much faster..
You have that backwards. You're local community is small, so that when the 4 guys you play all go to a new system, you have to: 1. change to their system to play. 2. Move. 3. Not play. That has nothing to do with "word traveling faster". Just limited options. But that's ok. You've "been in retail all of your life" so I'm sure you know all about this sort of thing.
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Post by: Nucflash
 reds8n wrote:You'd best start making some effort with regards to spelling or you won't be posting at all.
I'll will take your word for it.... Would be kinda fun to say I got permabanned from dakka dakka because I could not spell good english..
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Post by: nectarprime
reds8n wrote:You'd best start making some effort with regards to spelling or you won't be posting at all.
Go easy on him... he's been in retail all his life.
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Post by: kronk
Nucflash wrote: reds8n wrote:You'd best start making some effort with regards to spelling or you won't be posting at all.
I'll will take your word for it.... Would be kinda fun to say I got permabanned from dakka dakka because I could not spell good english..
That's better than being perma-baned. Trust me, the mods here have been know to do that!
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Post by: Alfndrate
Nucflash wrote: reds8n wrote:You'd best start making some effort with regards to spelling or you won't be posting at all.
I'll will take your word for it.... Would be kinda fun to say I got permabanned from dakka dakka because I could not spell good english..
Actually by not making the effort, you're in direct violation of a part of Rule 1 of Dakka
Please remember that posting and reading online is a visual format and as such the spelling, grammar and look of your posts is the only way others understand what you are saying. Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.
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Post by: Nucflash
kronk wrote: Nucflash wrote:
Internet do not play games with you.. But when most of the Community has stoped playing GW games in favor of other games.. That is what I mean when I say that word travels faster.. The gaming scene is not as large as you have in germany and the US. So we can impact it much faster..
You have that backwards.
You're local community is small, so that when the 4 guys you play all go to a new system, you have to:
1. change to their system to play.
2. Move.
3. Not play.
That has nothing to do with "word traveling faster". Just limited options. But that's ok. You've "been in retail all of your life" so I'm sure you know all about this sort of thing.
Point I'm making is if something better comes along it will go faster to switch to that system. You can argue "you have to", and for the people like me who want the change it works in our favor, any way you put it. It will go slower in a larger country like the US, but the change is comming. And it is Games workshops own fault for not keeping up with the times..
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Post by: kronk
So you were the one that first changed games, got a few guys to do it, and the remaining couple of guys had to tag along or sit out.
Got it.
There's nothing wrong with changing games if the company or game you've been playing isn't to your liking. I hope you and your group have fun with Warmahordes (note that's the second time I've wished you well).
It's calling people that still enjoy the game names (like you've been doing) that's wrong. Best of luck to your posting future.
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Post by: Nucflash
I know you dudes cant stand me . And yes I do not hide the fact that I feel that Games workshop sucks, on a forum dedicated to the game. But if you spent more time asking yourself why so many people say negative things about Games Workshop instead of dismissing complaints. There would be a real chans of fixing things. I'm not really alone on these forum being unhappy with GW...
Or do all of you really think that everything is just fine with the games that GW produce? And that they can just act how they want without getting a reaction?
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
To be fair - it is sort of poking the snapping turtle. When a thread is titled something like Games Workshop Boycott!!! (Online Store Freedom)...you have to expect a certain type of person will post in it. It is the same reason I don't normally post in threads about how great a new release is or how awesome a new rulebook/codex/whatchamacallit might be. The ones who are in the thread are of a mindset that doesn't generally allow for reasoned discussions. They are hard set to a specific viewpoint.
Now if the title of the thread where something less definitive - it might be a bit easier to work towards a specific understanding on points of view and where they might diverge or converge.
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Post by: Alfndrate
Nucflash wrote:I know you dudes cant stand me . And yes I do not hide the fact that I feel that Games workshop sucks, on a forum dedicated to the game. But if you spent more time asking yourself why so many people say negative things about Games Workshop instead of dismissing complaints. There would be a real chans of fixing things. I'm not really alone on these forum being unhappy with GW... Or do all of you really think that everything is just fine with the games that GW produce? And that they can just act how they want without getting a reaction?
I don't think everything is fine with GW, that's why I don't play GW games. I play Malifaux, Brushfire, Endless Fantasy Tactics, Flames of War, and Warmahordes. I have 3 40k armies and 2 Fantasy armies, they're gathering dust. Why? Because I don't like how 40k plays atm, and I have no fantasy opponents because it's not a popular game where I play. They play mostly Malifaux (thanks to me), 40k, historicals, and Flames of War. So don't assume that just because I'm replying to you I enjoy 40k and think everything is completely okay with GW and their games. My issue is how you are antagonistic towards people that play a game they like that you don't like. Let people play what they want to play. And remember, even if GW goes under, 40k will still be playable. Their existence doesn't immediately make the game disappear. The rules will still be around, people will still play, and remember a space marine is a space marine is a space marine. They haven't really changed in 10 years or so. So please stop trying to flamebait people that enjoy GW games, because they enjoy 40k and what not just as much as you enjoy Warmahordes.
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Post by: kronk
Nucflash wrote:I know you dudes cant stand me . And yes I do not hide the fact that I feel that Games workshop sucks, on a forum dedicated to the game. But if you spent more time asking yourself why so many people say negative things about Games Workshop instead of dismissing complaints. There would be a real chans of fixing things. I'm not really alone on these forum being unhappy with GW... Or do all of you really think that everything is just fine with the games that GW produce? And that they can just act how they want without getting a reaction?
I've been very vocal on this forum and others about a number of mistakes that I feel GW has made. The most recent trade agreement rules are among them, along with finecast, the Black Templar FAQ, and a few others. I'm not a blind flier of the GW banner, fan-boi, or other cute name. However, when you, Nucflash, attack other posters, saying they're in need of rescue, brain-washed, and any of the other put-downs and insults you've been flinging continue to do so, you should expect there to be some consequence (from the mods) and push back (from the posters). You can make anti- GW posts without being a tool, you know.
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Post by: Empchild
Nucflash wrote:I know you dudes cant stand me . And yes I do not hide the fact that I feel that Games workshop sucks, on a forum dedicated to the game. But if you spent more time asking yourself why so many people say negative things about Games Workshop instead of dismissing complaints. ?
I believe they call that the internet, a world where one or two people can make all sorts of claims and be seen by the masses. I can claim to be a bitz vendor and have openly said this whole GW issue will not stop me, but I sell other things as well.
Sean_OBrien wrote:To be fair - it is sort of poking the snapping turtle. When a thread is titled something like Games Workshop Boycott!!! (Online Store Freedom)...you have to expect a certain type of person will post in it. It is the same reason I don't normally post in threads about how great a new release is or how awesome a new rulebook/codex/whatchamacallit might be. The ones who are in the thread are of a mindset that doesn't generally allow for reasoned discussions. They are hard set to a specific viewpoint.
Now if the title of the thread where something less definitive - it might be a bit easier to work towards a specific understanding on points of view and where they might diverge or converge.
In fairness I expected you to be the troll in this one as you generally are but for once you aren't... I like this improvement so you get two internet cookies.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
I am generally a troll? I think I must have missed those. You might not like what I say - but if I say something, it is almost always based on facts rather than emotional responses...and I never poke the hornets nest, just for the sake or doing so which has always been the definition of a troll.
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Post by: Nucflash
Sean_OBrien wrote:To be fair - it is sort of poking the snapping turtle. When a thread is titled something like Games Workshop Boycott!!! (Online Store Freedom)...you have to expect a certain type of person will post in it. It is the same reason I don't normally post in threads about how great a new release is or how awesome a new rulebook/codex/whatchamacallit might be. The ones who are in the thread are of a mindset that doesn't generally allow for reasoned discussions. They are hard set to a specific viewpoint.
Now if the title of the thread where something less definitive - it might be a bit easier to work towards a specific understanding on points of view and where they might diverge or converge.
The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this. Other gaming systems (that host their own forums etc). do not receive the amount of negativity that this forum gets. And personaly I do not blindly defend the gaming systems I play. If there is something wrong I acknowledge it. If its game-breaking I probably drop the system. But I do not go on a rant on the Internet forums trashing the game. Only Games Workshops games send me into blind rage, and I personaly feel that the frustration and anger towards GW is fueled by the defenders. And that is the main reason I cant just drop the game and move on.
If GWs prices went up 500% over night, I think that some people still would be on these boards defending GWs decision to do so, with teeth and claw. And it is this feeling that brings the frustration level to the point that I start insulting people to get the point across.
This insanity has to stop.. But I think the only way to break the cycle is if people atleast acknowledge, that things are not perfect with GW..
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Post by: nkelsch
Sean_OBrien wrote:I am generally a troll? I think I must have missed those. You might not like what I say - but if I say something, it is almost always based on facts rather than emotional responses...and I never poke the hornets nest, just for the sake or doing so which has always been the definition of a troll.
You are the farthest thing from a troll IMHO. People may disagree, but disagreeing with someone doesn't make them a troll. Your POV, facts and legal perspective always contributes new things to the conversation regardless of position.
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Post by: Kanluwen
nkelsch wrote:
Agree., Maybe I should have worded it better.
I simply do not care for any of the factions or how the models look. The only ones that appealed to me were the Minions as they had some good-looking beastmen which fit in with my 'bestiary' models I collect. I have played the game, I have seen the rules. It just doesn't appeal to me.
I also am an Ork collector which I enjoy converting models... which Warmahordes really doesn't do much and leaves modelers like myself out in the cold.
I do play other games, they are just not other WARGAMES. I like GW orks, I like 40k, I enjoy playing at 40k events and I like collecting models which work in my 40k ork army regardless of manufacturer. I do not need to be educated, bullied, abused to rescued until I change to PP.
I could never play another game of 40k ever again and I would still enjoy collecting, painting and modeling ' 40k orks'. I buy the models which I want and like the looks of, and I buy what I think are fun to paint. Right now for me, that is mostly Sci-fi orks and Chibi RPG models with a side of fantasy football and cool looking one-off display pieces.
You know, I was just reading your post and finding myself in agreement.
I'm looking at getting into Warmachine. The hardest part I am having in getting myself excited is that, much like Infinity, the factions have too much of a jarring visual aesthetic in that there are very different looks going on.
Right now, I'm torn between a Cygnar force with Caine and gone heavy on Trenchers/light Warjacks with some Rangers (The Trenchers, Rangers, and several of the Light Warjacks appeal to the Guard player in me) and a Retribution force gone heavy on Mage Hunters. Playing the factions as a whole though? They just do not appeal to me since it would end up with such vastly differing visuals.
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Post by: Cruentus
Nucflash wrote:
The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this. Other gaming systems (that host their own forums etc). do not receive the amount of negativity that this forum gets..
Because those forums delete and ban topics that aren't positive (usually). They also quickly squash internet "debate" much more quickly than on Dakka, particularly if it speaks negatively of the product. If you want to read all positives, go to the company's forums. If you want unvarnished opinion, go to the "independents" (and I'll use that loosely for some sites).
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Post by: Nucflash
 Cruentus wrote: Nucflash wrote:
The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this. Other gaming systems (that host their own forums etc). do not receive the amount of negativity that this forum gets..
Because those forums delete and ban topics that aren't positive (usually). They also quickly squash internet "debate" much more quickly than on Dakka, particularly if it speaks negatively of the product. If you want to read all positives, go to the company's forums. If you want unvarnished opinion, go to the "independents" (and I'll use that loosely for some sites).
There are alot of independet forums also for all the other games. and they are not as negative as the once that speak about GW... You can find them all if you look around the internet..
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Post by: Alfndrate
Nucflash wrote: Cruentus wrote: Nucflash wrote:
The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this. Other gaming systems (that host their own forums etc). do not receive the amount of negativity that this forum gets..
Because those forums delete and ban topics that aren't positive (usually). They also quickly squash internet "debate" much more quickly than on Dakka, particularly if it speaks negatively of the product. If you want to read all positives, go to the company's forums. If you want unvarnished opinion, go to the "independents" (and I'll use that loosely for some sites).
There are alot of independet forums also for all the other games. and they are not as negative as the once that speak about GW... You can find them all if you look around the internet..
Would you like link us to those?
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Post by: pretre
Nucflash wrote:The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this.
LOL
That is the funniest thing I have heard in a while. You must not have been on a lot of other forums. Head onto the blizzard forums and see what you find. You might want to bring an adult or a bodyguard though.
As has been said after your post, most forums either have negativity or very active mods who prune topics. It is the internet; that's how it works.
Linked for naughty words:
http://networkcultures0806792.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/215499488_8pszr-l-2.jpg
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Post by: Nucflash
 Kanluwen wrote:
You know, I was just reading your post and finding myself in agreement.
I'm looking at getting into Warmachine. The hardest part I am having in getting myself excited is that, much like Infinity, the factions have too much of a jarring visual aesthetic in that there are very different looks going on.
Right now, I'm torn between a Cygnar force with Caine and gone heavy on Trenchers/light Warjacks with some Rangers (The Trenchers, Rangers, and several of the Light Warjacks appeal to the Guard player in me) and a Retribution force gone heavy on Mage Hunters. Playing the factions as a whole though? They just do not appeal to me since it would end up with such vastly differing visuals.
I have to agree with you on this also. I personaly feel that Privateer Press, could have done a better jobb in the design department. The Factions can feel all over the place... And sticking to a more universal theme would have been better from an esthetic point of view.
The main things that make Warmachine/hords fun to play however is the Balanced gameplay.. And that the rules are more "as writen" and you cant exploit loopholes in them... And for me personaly that is more important then what they look like..
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Post by: pretre
Nucflash wrote:The main things that make Warmachine/hords fun to play however is the Balanced gameplay.. And that the rules are more "as writen" and you cant exploit loopholes in them... And for me personaly that is more important then what they look like..
Granted, I do not play WMH, but isn't that the game with Turn 1 caster kill, "I win" kind of gameplay?
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Post by: Alfndrate
pretre wrote: Nucflash wrote:The main things that make Warmachine/hords fun to play however is the Balanced gameplay.. And that the rules are more "as writen" and you cant exploit loopholes in them... And for me personaly that is more important then what they look like..
Granted, I do not play WMH, but isn't that the game with Turn 1 caster kill, "I win" kind of gameplay?
It is, but I've never seen a turn 1 caster kill... I believe such a thing would have to be a hell of a shot/bad play on 1 of the player's parts.
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Post by: Nucflash
pretre wrote: Nucflash wrote:The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this.
LOL
That is the funniest thing I have heard in a while. You must not have been on a lot of other forums. Head onto the blizzard forums and see what you find. You might want to bring an adult or a bodyguard though.
As has been said after your post, most forums either have negativity or very active mods who prune topics. It is the internet; that's how it works.
Linked for naughty words:
http://networkcultures0806792.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/215499488_8pszr-l-2.jpg
We are talking other Table-top games now.. not video games. Compared to most other Table-top games.. GW gets the most negativity. Blizzard also has an internet based community.. you have to be online to play the game. For a Table-top company to get bad press, their users really have to go the extra mile..
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Post by: pretre
Nucflash wrote:Compared to most other Table-top games.. GW gets the most negativity.
Not that GW doesn't do things wrong, but they are also the largest table-top gaming company (for what we are talking about). 10% disgruntled GW customers is a lot more than 10% disgruntled PP customers. For a Table-top company to get bad press, their users really have to go the extra mile..
Not really. WOW is no more an 'internet game' than 40k is. You do not need to interact with the blizzard forums to play wow (I never did when I played for quite a while). Same thing with 40k. The type of people who play both games tend to go on the internet and talk to other people though... Also, as people have said PP trims their forums quite a bit.
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Post by: Nucflash
Alfndrate wrote: Nucflash wrote: Cruentus wrote: Nucflash wrote:
The thing that I personaly think is interesting is that only the forums that talk about GW games have threads like this. Other gaming systems (that host their own forums etc). do not receive the amount of negativity that this forum gets..
Because those forums delete and ban topics that aren't positive (usually). They also quickly squash internet "debate" much more quickly than on Dakka, particularly if it speaks negatively of the product. If you want to read all positives, go to the company's forums. If you want unvarnished opinion, go to the "independents" (and I'll use that loosely for some sites).
There are alot of independet forums also for all the other games. and they are not as negative as the once that speak about GW... You can find them all if you look around the internet..
Would you like link us to those?
Both Dakka dakka
Warseer
Musingonminis
Beastsofwar
miniwargaming
And many others have independent PP forums and some of them have forums for other games also....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: Nucflash wrote:Compared to most other Table-top games.. GW gets the most negativity.
Not that GW doesn't do things wrong, but they are also the largest table-top gaming company (for what we are talking about). 10% disgruntled GW customers is a lot more than 10% disgruntled PP customers.
For a Table-top company to get bad press, their users really have to go the extra mile..
Not really. WOW is no more an 'internet game' than 40k is. You do not need to interact with the blizzard forums to play wow (I never did when I played for quite a while). Same thing with 40k. The type of people who play both games tend to go on the internet and talk to other people though...
Also, as people have said PP trims their forums quite a bit.
Yes I do understand that GW is still big in the states. But excluding my own gaming community, we are not that many, about 20+ people(we do not play GW games).. We rent our own place, that we play at, with 6 tables and terrain etc. Not open to the general public(dont want little kidds running around), so invites only. the 3 places that are open to the public, only one out of three still Play GW games. And the dudes there are getting old and tired.. and they dont seem to be that active these days.. And then we have the GW store, but they just play with the kidds, older people are not welcome there. They have made that clear..
Also there is a big Magic event soon and a big Warmachine/hordes Tournament with around 82 contestants. Nothing on the GW side because nobody cares.
So for me personaly I do not feel that GW is the top dog.. People still play at home and in their garage etc.. But in the general scene and I play 3 places all over town, we do not see that many setting up 40k, and fantasy games. A few years back everyone was playing GW games,, these days not so much..
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Post by: Alfndrate
Isn't Warseer mostly GW fanboys if I recall correctly. Muse on Minis is just a PP Board, so I'm sure they have a similar clientele to the PP forums. MWG has forums dedicated to the games they support in the store, which are GW products, Dark Potential (their game), and Warmahordes, and we don't know if they delete anti-PP or anti-GW thread. And Beasts of War didn't have much of a community when I was last on their, perhaps it's gotten better.
You also have to take into account the number of people on each of those forums and compare them to a website like DakkaDakka.
MoM has less than 1 thousand members, MWG has 12k members, and while Warseer has more members than Dakka, their Warmachine and Hordes sections pales in comparison to the WM/H section on Dakka...
If I could get on Beasts of War I'd give you statistics from them as well.
The problem is that there are anti-PP people on this site. And the mods try not to close down threads unless it goes off topic, because discourse is always a good thing. Every time you see a GW vs PP thread, the anti-PP always talk about the "balls to the wall" player base, the huge shoulder pads, and how PP games aren't cheaper than GW on a model by model basis, etc... etc... etc.. ad infinatum, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
*sigh* If these websites have such great PP communities, why don't you go there and darken our doorsteps no more?
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Post by: pretre
Nucflash wrote:Yes I do understand that GW is still big in the states.
snip
So for me personaly I do not feel that GW is the top dog.. People still play at home and in their garage etc.. But in the general scene and I play 3 places all over town, we do not see that many setting up 40k, and fantasy games. A few years back everyone was playing GW games,, these days not so much..
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html
Yep, US is mostly GW.
Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Summer 2012
#1 Warhammer 40k
#2 Warmachine
#3 Warhammer Fantasy
#4 Hordes
#5 Malifaux
Of course, the issue with your experience would be that the greater Los Angeles metro is bigger than Sweden, so dominance for GW is a bit more important in more populated areas. Not digging on Sweden, but hey...
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Post by: Nucflash
Alfndrate wrote:Isn't Warseer mostly GW fanboys if I recall correctly. Muse on Minis is just a PP Board, so I'm sure they have a similar clientele to the PP forums. MWG has forums dedicated to the games they support in the store, which are GW products, Dark Potential (their game), and Warmahordes, and we don't know if they delete anti- PP or anti- GW thread. And Beasts of War didn't have much of a community when I was last on their, perhaps it's gotten better.
You also have to take into account the number of people on each of those forums and compare them to a website like DakkaDakka.
MoM has less than 1 thousand members, MWG has 12k members, and while Warseer has more members than Dakka, their Warmachine and Hordes sections pales in comparison to the WM/H section on Dakka...
If I could get on Beasts of War I'd give you statistics from them as well.
The problem is that there are anti- PP people on this site. And the mods try not to close down threads unless it goes off topic, because discourse is always a good thing. Every time you see a GW vs PP thread, the anti- PP always talk about the "balls to the wall" player base, the huge shoulder pads, and how PP games aren't cheaper than GW on a model by model basis, etc... etc... etc.. ad infinatum, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
*sigh* If these websites have such great PP communities, why don't you go there and darken our doorsteps no more?
I'm all over the place . But your grudge against me is a personal one to be honest. You dont play GW games right? You and I do not have a problem as far as I'm concerned.
Beast of war have about 25k.. and around 2k in the warmachine/hordes section..
And they are not happy at Warseer.. saw atleast 3-4 negative posts on the first page about GW this and GW that.
That GW has become a real problem for many people is important to acknowledge. I personaly feel that they are sabotageing the Table-top industry more then they are contributing at this stage. This is my personal opinion, not facts.
PP is in no way shape or form cheaper then GW, that is a FACT hehe. I dont think anny Table-top game is cheap to be honest. But what you get for your money and how the rules are writen are diffrent. I personaly think(my opinion) that GW has the worst rules.. Why? because they are poorly uppdated and lets face it GW has had more then 2 decades to perfect the rules for W40k, and it is still balanced like crap. If they wanted to make decent rules they would have done it by now. For selling more armies the rules work as intended though heheh
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Post by: PLC
 wowsmash wrote:
Here's another novel idea. How about we purchase from our preferred retailers and people stop trying to be purchase police.
I would love to do that but GW has decided I can only buy from them or tame retail outlets at 200% of what the ROW pays.
This has enormous impact on gamers in my group.
So we buy from the US - 1000s of $$$ in my group alone - because that is where we get value. Savvy NZ and OZ gamers are doing the same which is blunting the GW ROW embargo. The purchase point has shifted from the UK to the US.
IMO when GW release their full financials you'll see that there has been no growth in Asia-Pacific sales and the only consequence was to help Maelstrom's recent bankruptcy - the company's plans were premised on its ROW sales.
The move to restrict resellers and the restriction to domestic sales are in part directed at sales coming from the ROW as the GW games out there have successfully achieved workarounds.
I don't play at GW. I don't play at FLGS (there aren't any). I play at home or at my club , neither of which GW supports. If they did support the local gaming environment I might be more pre-disposed to spending more than token money locally - but at present it is a Mexican standoff (no support, no purchase; no purchase, no support).
So as it stands having a local GW is a more a hindrance to me than a benefit. It provides rationale for the embargo but provides no value whatsoever to my hobby or my hobby experience.
But wait you say, GW brings people into the hobby that could eventually be opponents. Well our local GW refuses to put up posters for local events or to send players to local clubs - "If I do that I lose a customer".
Love the product, not so enamoured on the company.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I know one shouldn't try to force memes, but gak:
How perfect is that?
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Post by: pretre
Slap a funny picture on it and you're good to go.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Nucflash wrote:If GWs prices went up 500% over night, I think that some people still would be on these boards defending GWs decision to do so, with teeth and claw.
And their names would be Kingsley (who’d try and convince us that the prices haven’t gone up), Orktavius (who’d call everyone who disagreed with him an uninformed hater), Zwei (who’d try and convince us that the prices were actually going down) and a few others.
But, in the end, who cares? You can dislike GW and not be a dick about it. Give it a try and tell us how it goes.
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Post by: pretre
Wait, I'm not on the White Knight shortlist anymore? dammit.
But, in the end, who cares? You can dislike GW and not be a dick about it. Give it a try and tell us how it goes.
HERESY!!!
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Post by: Desubot
Slightly off topic but iv been curious about it but what is the difference in income earned between similar jobs compared with say the US? Or do you really have to pay double for the same things over there (or is it only on specific items)
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
pretre wrote:Wait, I'm not on the White Knight shortlist anymore? dammit.
As a mindless White Knight defending GW no matter what they do? No. You don't qualify. Neither does Kan, despite his best efforts.
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Post by: Sergeant Horse
pretre wrote: Nucflash wrote:Yes I do understand that GW is still big in the states.
snip
So for me personaly I do not feel that GW is the top dog.. People still play at home and in their garage etc.. But in the general scene and I play 3 places all over town, we do not see that many setting up 40k, and fantasy games. A few years back everyone was playing GW games,, these days not so much..
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24225.html
Yep, US is mostly GW.
Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Summer 2012
#1 Warhammer 40k
#2 Warmachine
#3 Warhammer Fantasy
#4 Hordes
#5 Malifaux
Of course, the issue with your experience would be that the greater Los Angeles metro is bigger than Sweden, so dominance for GW is a bit more important in more populated areas. Not digging on Sweden, but hey...
I honestly find it hard to believe Malifaux is #5. It seems to be dead everywhere in Georgia. Wonder where its strong
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Post by: Alfndrate
Sergeant Horse wrote:I honestly find it hard to believe Malifaux is #5. It seems to be dead everywhere in Georgia. Wonder where its strong
icv2 bases their stuff off of sales I believe, and Malifaux has a decently strong following in the UK, Chicago, California, Washington, Ohio and Virginia if I remember correctly. And I find it kind of funny that you say they're not that big in Georgia, seeing as they're based just outside of Atlanta. Not saying you're lying, I just find it humorous if that's the case . Nucflash wrote:I'm all over the place . But your grudge against me is a personal one to be honest. You dont play GW games right? You and I do not have a problem as far as I'm concerned.
It's not personal, you're just being rude to anyone that likes 40k and GW. PP is in no way shape or form cheaper then GW, that is a FACT hehe. I dont think anny Table-top game is cheap to be honest. But what you get for your money and how the rules are writen are diffrent. I personaly think(my opinion) that GW has the worst rules.. Why? because they are poorly uppdated and lets face it GW has had more then 2 decades to perfect the rules for W40k, and it is still balanced like crap. If they wanted to make decent rules they would have done it by now. For selling more armies the rules work as intended though heheh
The idea that PP is cheaper than GW revolves around the fact that you can buy a tournament competitive force for a fraction of the price of a tournament competitive 40k army. And the reason why GW's rules are "balanced like crap" is design differences. Who the head of the design studio has a lot to do with the direction of the game. 5th ed was designed by Alessio Cavatore who wanted a tournament game when he had 5th ed in mind. I think he did it, though I only participated in like 3 tournaments during my 5th ed days (I came in the last 18 months of 5th ed). 6th ed on the other hand has a "narrative" idea behind it, a beer and pretzels game, so it seems to be looser. But that's neither here nor there.
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Post by: Swan-of-War
pretre wrote: Nucflash wrote:The main things that make Warmachine/hords fun to play however is the Balanced gameplay.. And that the rules are more "as writen" and you cant exploit loopholes in them... And for me personaly that is more important then what they look like..
Granted, I do not play WMH, but isn't that the game with Turn 1 caster kill, "I win" kind of gameplay?
Surely you can get enough Warmachine jingoism over at the Ordo Fanaticus boards.
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Post by: pretre
Swan-of-War wrote: pretre wrote: Nucflash wrote:The main things that make Warmachine/hords fun to play however is the Balanced gameplay.. And that the rules are more "as writen" and you cant exploit loopholes in them... And for me personaly that is more important then what they look like..
Granted, I do not play WMH, but isn't that the game with Turn 1 caster kill, "I win" kind of gameplay?
Surely you can get enough Warmachine jingoism over at the Ordo Fanaticus boards.
Lol there isn't too much crossover except when someone comes into a bitch thread to say OMG play Warmahordes!
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Post by: JWhex
I have to agree that GW really does generate a lot more negativity than Privateer. I think it is because a lot of players become very passionate about 40k when they get into it and then when they become disenfranchised that passion is displayed in negativity towards GW.
Also, few can deny that GW is dismissive of its veteran players and treats them in an unwelcome way. I dont get the sense of this at all and it appears to be the opposite case with Privateer.
Certainly Privateer moderates its forums but I dont know of any forums were former warmahordes players hate on Privateer like you have former GW players hating GW.
The divide between warmahorde and 40k players does not make much sense to me. Aside from the fact both games use miniatures, warmahordes is nothing like 40k or whfb.
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Post by: -Loki-
JWhex wrote:I have to agree that GW really does generate a lot more negativity than Privateer. I think it is because a lot of players become very passionate about 40k when they get into it and then when they become disenfranchised that passion is displayed in negativity towards GW.
It mostly comes down to GW having simply far more customers. Privateer Press pissing off 10% of their customers is going to result in a lot less complaints than GW pissing off 10% of its customers.
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Post by: PhantomViper
 -Loki- wrote:JWhex wrote:I have to agree that GW really does generate a lot more negativity than Privateer. I think it is because a lot of players become very passionate about 40k when they get into it and then when they become disenfranchised that passion is displayed in negativity towards GW.
It mostly comes down to GW having simply far more customers. Privateer Press pissing off 10% of their customers is going to result in a lot less complaints than GW pissing off 10% of its customers.
It also might stem from the fact that GW doesn't care about customer retention at all while every other miniature wargaming company apparently do.
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Post by: chapgrimaldus
Anyone else suspect the OP is one of those people who recast and sell em? Or closely affiliated with such a store? I suspect this is more to save his own behind. Even if you "boycott" the online store, guess what? GW STILL RAKES IN THE DOUGH from stores you buy from. Besides FW is one of the only one I truly care about and they aren't going anywhere. Crappy companies exist, like walmart or any big grocery company does this mean youll stop buying food? Start buying Tacobell? Oh wait Taco Bell is another 'evil' company. LOL More joking than anything at this point haha
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Post by: clively
Boycotts just don't work; they never do.
The only solution if you are unhappy is to stop buying their products. There are a lot of great options out there. Even if you decide to continue playing 40k, you still don't need their models.
GW will continue down this rabbit hole until they figure out their current corporate model doesn't work. That's only going to happen when profits fall and/or they lose significant market share.
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