STAND UP for the beast of America,
LAY DOWN like a naked dead body,
KEEP IT REAL for the PEOPLE workin' overtime,
they can't stay living off the government's dime.
STAND TALL for the people of America!
STAND TALL for the man next door!
Not yet - after Aliens: Colonial Marines, I am super, super hesitant about even pre-ordering games, let alone paying for the DLC Of Christmas Future. I felt really, really burned by that.
Not yet - after Aliens: Colonial Marines, I am super, super hesitant about even pre-ordering games, let alone paying for the DLC Of Christmas Future. I felt really, really burned by that.
Okay, I wasn't sure... The "season pass" idea is still something I'm not entirely sold on, I know it's gaining prominence with the non-Call of Duty games with things like the Borderlands 2 Season Pass, Bioshock's season pass, etc... I'm not paying full price since all the money I've put down on it were all games I've beaten, so I'm grabbing the season pass and the guide since I had budgeted out the 60 bucks for the game. My only concern is if the game releases more than 4 pieces of DLC for the game...
And while I didn't get burned by Aliens: Colonial Marines, I'm normally really hesitant about pre-ordering games because it used to be some company's policy years ago that if you didn't come in by x day they'd sell your copy and you'd have to wait until the next shipment came in. I honestly think I was being sold a load of bull to ensure I was there on release day (or it may have been a Harry Potter book, it's honestly been about a decade). But I traded in a whole bunch of stuff, got Black Ops 2, a new headset, and had like 7 bucks left and without any decent game to pick up, I put it down on Bioshock Infinite.
Though I do remember the crap I went through to get my copy of Twilight Princess. "Hey it'll be released by Christmas." okay, that's like 2 months out. "Um we're pushing it back to June." Ugh... I guess that's okay... "Um... we're pushing it back to December, and the Wii version will be coming out beforehand." Um... wtf?!
Interesting articles on preordering while we're on the topic
Whenever you finish it, please give a review. I liked Bioshock 1, skipped Bioshock 2 because of its apparent multiplayer focus. But Infinite seems to be focusing on single player once more so I'm rather interested.
I haven't even met Elizabeth yet, FWIW. I'm only about... I dunno, 2 hours in? Maybe less. But I play very slowly and like to look at everything.
@ALF - OMG, you never played the first Bioshock? It's seriously one of the greatest games of all time. You should definitely do so, you can probably get it for like $5.
Bioshock 2 was kinda ehhhh though. I started it and did not finish it.
I can't view that video Melissa, work blocked and all that.
I know that there is some level of team work between Booker and Elizabeth, and I think you can control some of her actions, but I don't think she's fully playable. Granted I've yet to get my hands on the game, so I can't comment on it more.
Also. You can unlock super hard 1999 mode on the game by using the Konami Code... in case anyone want's a challenge.
Ouze - About a month or so ago, I bought the Bioshock Ultimate Rapture Edition which is Bioshock 1 and 2 and all of their DLC... It was 30 bucks... Well worth it imo.
I just haven't played more than like 6 hours (I just had the battle in that fishery place).
So does Infinite stack up? I got Tomb Raider, My brother got Infinite, and we are going to swap somewhere down the line.
Also, if you guys didn't like Bioshock 2, you should download Minerva's Den for it. Sure the plasmids are kinda out of place in that (fun to use, though), but that 3-4 hours of gameplay felt like a true bioshock sequal.
Dunno yet - I'm waiting until I beat it to say for sure; but I'm certainly enjoying it.
No spoilers:
Skylines are nutballs.
DirectX 11 fire effects are incredible.
You might want to remap your keys to swap zoom to the right mouse button, and vigors to the scroll wheel. I kept accidentally using a vigor.
I grabbed some blank, 1 frame bik files, because the intro logos were so numerous they annoyed me. You can find my renamed blank movies here, and they must be extracted to G:\Games\BioShock Infinite\XGame\Movies (obviously, correct that to wherever you installed it to). This will remove the AMD/ESRB/Irrational/2K etc logos at the beginning.
Luckily my birthday is coming up in less then a month, I'm definitely going to ask for this game.
Slarg232 wrote: Also, if you guys didn't like Bioshock 2, you should download Minerva's Den for it. Sure the plasmids are kinda out of place in that (fun to use, though), but that 3-4 hours of gameplay felt like a true bioshock sequal.
Minerva's Den was awesome. It had a killer Bioshock 1 style twist right at the end.
I was waiting for this one for quite a long time too.
Loved System Shock and Bioshock.
Still, all the reviews seem too good to be true. Most of them don't even say anything specific about the game, just random sales crap. Is the game really so good? Reviews make it best thing since multicellular organisms.
Just picked it up... been doing some reading while on breaks and what not... seems I don't need to have played any of the others to understand what's going on with this one... Popping it in shortly..
Alfndrate wrote: Are you talking about Elizabeth? She's a main character.
Well, from being 3 hours or so in, it appears the main character is actually appaling racism.
But to answer your subsequent question, no - you do not need to play the prior games to play this one, there is no link that I am aware of between their stories. The gameplay mechanics are very similar, though, so if you wind up hating this, you may profitably skip going back to Bioshock as well.
Alfndrate wrote: Are you talking about Elizabeth? She's a main character.
Well, from being 3 hours or so in, it appears the main character is actually appaling racism.
But to answer your subsequent question, no - you do not need to play the prior games to play this one, there is no link that I am aware of between their stories. The gameplay mechanics are very similar, though, so if you wind up hating this, you may profitably skip going back to Bioshock as well.
Booker is racist? Is that what I got out of your post? I know Columbia is really racist based on the first real bit of action...
Just got to Monument Island and I think this game has tremendous potential. It was hard to turn the console off. I am pretty shocked by some of the violence and racism.
Alfndrate, so far it seems like Booker can be racist if you play him that way.
Manchu wrote: Just got to Monument Island and I think this game has tremendous potential. It was hard to turn the console off. I am pretty shocked by some of the violence and racism.
Alfndrate, so far it seems like Booker can be racist if you play him that way.
I thought so... I meant the whole raffle "ticket" 77 thing made it apparent that there were some choices in his levels of racism. I tried to beam the announcer... It just seemed that with Columbia being as overtly racist as it is, Booker doesn't seem that racist, granted I'm what an hour into the game? not even? It did seem weird when they drew my ticket, and the guy was like, "Now isn't that the prettiest white girl you ever did see?" I was like, "I've only seen white people... wtf?"
Also, I like the RPG elements to the game. I "got" the guidebook for free (stupid Gamestop deal that actually seemed like a deal ), and was flipping through the first few sections. There are "class" setups that they have in the game based on the gear you're wearing, and it made me wish that I could explore Columbia more like an RPG world than an FPS world. Though based on a chest I found in this guy's home, I'm assuming there is some sort of back tracking and exploration. Though it seems that unlike Ouze and Manchu, I had no problem shutting the game off after I left the Blue Ribbon Restaurant... I just felt extremely bored last night (not just by the game, I honestly found it hard to pull myself into anything last night).
I wound up shooting Slate, and immediately regretted it. I restarted from a checkpoint and will spare him instead. I don't know if there were any consequences one way or the other, but after I shot him.... I didn't like the way Elizabeth looked at me. Good job, animators.
Are you supposed to eventually be able to ally with either Comstock or Vox Populi? If so, and for the choice to be at all meaningful, I can't wait to see what kind of nastiness Vox gets up to because Father Comstock is about as unsavory as I can imagine.
Ouze wrote: Yeah, I went the patience route and it got all stabby.
What's your gear setup, if I can ask?
I'm not sure how to see it once equipped, if you can tell me that? I have a hazy recollection of what I picked up but not good enough to type up.
It's going to be kind of hard to translate this without the game in front of me, and since you're on the PC and I'm on the 360... You bring up the menu (not the pause menu), and it should be the second or third tab. It'll have all of your gear listed, and you can assign it there too...
Also I just read a spoiler I didn't want to look up :-\...
Burning Halo hat: sets people I melee on fire
Scavenger's vest - when I kill people they drop ammo 40% of the time
Head Master pants - 50% more criticals
Nothing in the middle slot.
Also - if it were me with the spoiler, sorry about that :/
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, a question regarding the Vox:
Spoiler:
Do you guys know where to find the codebook for the vox wall scribbling?
Ouze wrote: Oh, I got it. I checked keybindings. It's "o".
I have:
Spoiler:
Burning Halo hat: sets people I melee on fire
Scavenger's vest - when I kill people they drop ammo 40% of the time
Head Master pants - 50% more criticals
Nothing in the middle slot.
Also - if it were me with the spoiler, sorry about that :/
Hrm... I'll check what I've got tonight when I get home, but that looks like a decent setup... I'll also post the "classes" the guidebook has, as they might be something people want to go for. And no, you didn't spoil the game for me... I looked up something about Father Comstock and scrolled too far down the Bioshock Wiki past their large spoiler warning >_< I only have myself to blame.
Also, a question regarding the Vox:
Spoiler:
Do you guys know where to find the codebook for the vox wall scribbling?
Tangentially: Did either of you get a collector's edition? It came with a Handy Man miniature from the upcoming (and rather mysterious) Bioshock Infinite board game from Plaid Hat Games. The miniature is only about a half inch tall -- considering how large a Handyman is in-game, that's about 6-7mm scale? Yikes!
Manchu wrote: Tangentially: Did either of you get a collector's edition? It came with a Handy Man miniature from the upcoming (and rather mysterious) Bioshock Infinite board game from Plaid Hat Games. The miniature is only about a half inch tall -- considering how large a Handyman is in-game, that's about 6-7mm scale? Yikes!
I didn't, though with the amount that I traded in to get the game, the season pass and the guide, I could have splurged and still come out at about retail for just the game...
No on the collectors edition - regardless of how A:CM turned out I almost never go in for those. The only CE I really remember buying was for Mass Effect 3.
For those not currently playing Bioshock Infinite, this is an early scene in the game:
Spoiler:
There is a big carnival going on and as part of that there is a raffle. When you get to the raffle, there's a woman with a basket full of baseballs with numbers on them. You take one and then a man on a stage in front of you draws a number -- which turns out to be the one of your baseball. So what's your prize? On stage, some hokey music starts playing and some plywood scenery pops up with cartoonish depictions of black people as monkeys. Then a white man and black woman, bound and tied side by side, pop up and the man on stage makes it clear with some racist language that you are supposed to throw your baseball at them unless" you take your coffee black." So we've got a lynch-themed stoning using baseballs -- i.e., an iconic American artifact -- as the instrument of torture/murder.
Manchu wrote: For those not currently playing Bioshock Infinite, this is an early scene in the game:
Spoiler:
There is a big carnival going on and as part of that there is a raffle. When you get to the raffle, there's a woman with a basket full of baseballs with numbers on them. You take one and then a man on a stage in front of you draws a number -- which turns out to be the one of your baseball. So what's your prize? On stage, some hokey music starts playing and some plywood scenery pops up with cartoonish depictions of black people as monkeys. Then a white man and black woman, bound and tied side by side, pop up and the man on stage makes it clear with some racist language that you are supposed to throw your baseball at them unless" you take your coffee black." So we've got a lynch-themed stoning using baseballs -- i.e., an iconic American artifact -- as the instrument of torture/murder.
So yeah, this game isn't pulling punches.
Yeah, that scene was harsh. I was about to brain that top hatted git, before those cops got me.
What happens if you throw it at the couple though?
Yeah, apparently what happens is that no matter what, as you raise your hand to throw the ball the cop notices your hand.
The results of your choices apparently happens later down the road. The couple gives you some gear (a pair of pants I believe) for not braining them with a baseball.
Also I completely understand what Ouze means by the appaling racism of Booker Dewitt... But that's a decently big spoiler.
Edit: I wish my lunch break was longer so I could play it
Just finished it. 11 hours on hard with lots of backtracking. Wish I knew the 1999 mode was available from the start.
Checkpoints are dreadful, but that's a function of checkpoints in general. I'm playing this game on a PC for God's sake, give me a save function.
Weapons handling is okay-ish. The guns feel a little weak, especially towards the end. Pretty much everything can be solved with Bronco + shotgun/repeater, except the bosses.
Disappointed in the handling of the social commentary. Mostly because there isn't any.
Characters were decent. It's hard to not like Elisabeth and Booker, but they're not the deepest of ponds, so to speak. There's also a rather abrupt change in character for Elisabeth. It's explained, but jarring.
Story is as good as the ending and the ending is a
Spoiler:
typical time travel, multiple worlds nonsense skit with a very, very pessimistic slant. I'm guessing it was supposed to be moving, but it just felt lame. Not a fan.
Still, the game has incredible atmosphere and fabulous art design. That wipes away a lot of the grime I've smeared all over it above.
Yeah, the game's visual design alone makes me want to get it even if it turns out to be mediocre. I'm kind of getting tired of bland and boring games like the battlefield and call of duties series'.
Well, been playing for ~1,5h and so far I'm disappointed.
This is a Bioshock game all right, but that is not a compliment, because I did play the same game twice already.
a) Refined game play mechanic. Weapons handle very similarly, we have plasmids, similar management of health / mana / inventory. OK, shield instead of health packs.
b) So far painfully linear.
d) Story, well can't say much as I hope there will be something impressive down the road.
Still, does that sound familiar?
High-tech ~50 years ago.
Audio logs.
Hordes of brainwashed minions, arch-enemy megalomaniac lurking as a main threat, who decides to separate the city from USA by going underwater, whoops, going airborne.
Every X steps expect propaganda announcements.
Even the tutorials movies feel the same.
96 on metacritic? All time fifth? Shame on you reviewers!
And remember, Bioshock games are to show a society when 1 ruling factor of civilization are taken to the extreme. Bioshock 1 was about the genius of the individual, Bioshock 2 is about the collective effort and the power of the community. Bioshock Infinite is about the ideas of Ultra-Nationalism, with special regards to the whole, "'MURICA!" mentality....
Yeah, I agree that 96 is a bit much. Its more deserving of a 80-85.
If you actually had choices, if the game weren't as linear, and if the Comstock faction were more sympathetic, then maybe it would be more deserving of the 90+ mark
Seriously, why would you side with those KKK-esque fascists? If there were no choice, that would have been fine. But as there is a choice, there must be some reason to join them. Yeah, I know its a stretch, but if FO3 can do it in the pitt DLC, than so could have this game.
Then again, I can be ridiculously critical.
Still, I have to give them props for not pulling any punches on the portrayal of the bad guys.
I also had this problem with Skyrim, where choice was actually important unlike here, because the Stormcloaks were unabashed racists and all their "fatherland" talk did not engage my sympathy. Bethesda threw them a bone by portraying the Thalmor as the Gestapo and having Talos-worship banned. But, at least to me, the real reason Stormcloaks liked Talos-worship is because of their larger "Skyrim for the Nords" policy. For me at least, joining the Stormcloaks is only a possibility if the Empire is something worse than racist.
Same thing applies here. Vox has got to be worse than racist. I haven't met them in my playthrough yet, however.
Alfndrate wrote: And remember, Bioshock games are to show a society when 1 ruling factor of civilization are taken to the extreme. Bioshock 1 was about the genius of the individual, Bioshock 2 is about the collective effort and the power of the community. Bioshock Infinite is about the ideas of Ultra-Nationalism, with special regards to the whole, "'MURICA!" mentality....
Even if you'd go with exceptionalism, instead of nationalism, it's still pretty obvious that Infinite fails to comment on the subject the way the previous games did. Both meritocracy and collectivism are socially neutral concepts that can be used for both good and wrong.
Social and racial supremacy does not. For a game obsessed with the duality of events and concepts, Infinity fails the show the tails (or heads) of Columbia, because there is none to be found. It's a slideshow of grade A filth with nothing to balance it.
Alfndrate wrote: And remember, Bioshock games are to show a society when 1 ruling factor of civilization are taken to the extreme. Bioshock 1 was about the genius of the individual, Bioshock 2 is about the collective effort and the power of the community. Bioshock Infinite is about the ideas of Ultra-Nationalism, with special regards to the whole, "'MURICA!" mentality....
Social and racial supremacy does not. For a game obsessed with the duality of events and concepts, Infinity fails the show the tails (or heads) of Columbia, because there is none to be found. It's a slideshow of grade A filth with nothing to balance it.
Funny thing, that was actually pointed out in the game itself. You have to flip a coin at some point for these two characters, and according to the readings that they have, tails never comes up. There's always one option.
I must have missed the point where you can join one of the factions...
Actually, I'm pretty sure you don't get to choose.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Funny thing, that was actually pointed out in the game itself. You have to flip a coin at some point for these two characters, and according to the readings that they have, tails never comes up. There's always one option.
I know. I'm guessing it was a broad symbol not related directly to what I just said, but it would make sense as a metaphor of Columbia. Bad breeds bad and, in the end, only bad remains.
But it's still crappy social commentary. I want to be engaged in discussion, not taught like a child.
Actually, I'm pretty sure you don't get to choose.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Funny thing, that was actually pointed out in the game itself. You have to flip a coin at some point for these two characters, and according to the readings that they have, tails never comes up. There's always one option.
I know. I'm guessing it was a broad symbol not related directly to what I just said, but it would make sense as a metaphor of Columbia. Bad breeds bad and, in the end, only bad remains.
But it's still crappy social commentary. I want to be engaged in discussion, not taught like a child.
Huh, odd. After a bit of research it seems you don't get to join The Founders after all. I'm a dolt
I just assumed you could, after being given the choice to throw the ball at that couple (which admittably results in nothing, but still), and the from what I gathered from the marketing.
Well, I shut out all the PR drivel, so I wouldn't know.
Expect a very narrow story path with no branching whatsoever. For good or ill, the game follows it all the way to the end with no real input from the player.
That's a very subjective distinction and, moreover, it sounds like you're accusing BioShock Infinite of propaganda. I'm not sure that in-game choice is the necessary requirement for engagement. Along these lines, I think you must have a very poor memory of the original BioShock. Or maybe the problem is, where did you get this set of expectations for BioShock Infinite?
Manchu wrote: That's a very subjective distinction and, moreover, it sounds like you're accusing BioShock Infinite of propaganda.
There can be no propaganda if the subject has one side only, right?
Manchu wrote: I'm not sure that in-game choice is the necessary requirement for engagement. Along these lines, I think you must have a very poor memory of the original BioShock. Or maybe the problem is, where did you get this set of expectations for BioShock Infinite?
Well, Bioshock managed to produce a decent take on meritocracy and it's potential pitfalls. But as I said, meritocracy is neutral. Racial supremacy is not. The story of Ryan and Rapture is one of good intentions gone bad. Columbia is a story of bigotry and injustice gone worse. That makes it way less compelling for me, because there is no other side of the coin, no "could have been otherwise" to hinge a thread of sympathy or understanding on.
His Master's Voice wrote: But as I said, meritocracy is neutral. Racial supremacy is not. The story of Ryan and Rapture is one of good intentions gone bad. Columbia is a story of bigotry and injustice gone worse. That makes it way less compelling for me, because there is no other side of the coin, no "could have been otherwise" to hinge a thread of sympathy or understanding on.
This is a compelling argument. As I've yet to finish this game, I can't yet weigh in on it, but at this point in I see what you're saying so far as Rapture vs Columbia.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hah, ninja'd, kind of.
Just speaking of BioShock, I'm not sure that Andrew Ryan's intentions are actually any better than Father Comstock's.
To some extent, both stories are asking why anyone would think of themselves as so much better than others that they would refuse to live with those others (a little potential/faux foreshadowing from Infinite has a couple talking about future cities on the moon). For Ryan, it's a matter of "talent" -- which to a great extent can be summed up as "ruthlessness." For Comstock, it seems to be a matter of race/nationality.
Manchu wrote: But as to the matter of branching plots and player choice, BioShock cannot be the basis for such expectations.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I was expecting a linear path and I got a linear path. That's absolutely not something I'd hold against the game.
Manchu wrote: Just speaking of BioShock, I'm not sure that Andrew Ryan's intentions are actually any better than Father Comstock's.
They're both megalomaniacs with a vision. It's just that the utopia of one of them comes from a reasonable, or at least debatable idea, the other doesn't.
Edit: damn spell check.
Edit2: I am apparently located in the US now. That's interesting...
Melissia wrote: Meritocracy has never actually been implemented neutrally
Yeah, I think this comes up in both games. In Infinite, Comstock sees merit in terms of one's white-Americaness. In BioShock, Ryan sees merit in terms of agreement with him (consider his hatred for Fontaine, who arguably simply out-Ryans Andrew Ryan). But both men see something more than passive merit -- there is an active element which they both think of as salvation. More particularly, they seem to see a perfection of merit in the freedom to be great. Rapture and Columbia are the conditions for this salvation because they both think "the world" holds merit back. And they're very different freedoms: freedom from and freedom to.
Rapture is about hiding from the world, holding out on the world, a Randian intellectual strike. "All good things of this earth flow into the city."
Columbia is the opposite: they're above it, the house on the hill, the model for some future civilization. "What is Columbia but another ark for another time?"
Manchu wrote: eah, I think this comes up in both games. In Infinite, Comstock sees merit in terms of one's white-Americaness. In BioShock, Ryan sees merit in terms of agreement with him (consider his hatred for Fontaine, who arguably simply out-Ryans Andrew Ryan
Melissia wrote: Meritocracy has never actually been implemented neutrally
Yeah, I think this comes up in both games. In Infinite, Comstock sees merit in terms of one's white-Americaness. In BioShock, Ryan sees merit in terms of agreement with him (consider his hatred for Fontaine, who arguably simply out-Ryans Andrew Ryan). But both men see something more than passive merit -- there is an active element which they both think of as salvation. More particularly, they seem to see a perfection of merit in the freedom to be great. Rapture and Columbia are the conditions for this salvation because they both think "the world" holds merit back. And they're very different freedoms: freedom from and freedom to.
Rapture is about hiding from the world, holding out on the world, a Randian intellectual strike. "All good things of this earth flow into the city."
Columbia is the opposite: they're above it, the house on the hill, the model for some future civilization. "What is Columbia but another ark for another time?"
Yep!
I also felt that way about Andrew Ryan and Fontaine myself, actually.
Manchu wrote: Seriously, you only like completely novel games? You must hate pretty much everything.
I think you misunderstood me. I never said that the game was bad or I didn't enjoy it. Where did you get hate? There is however a huge leap from top 5 game ever released and a good, even a very good game.
The game gets more and more colours as you interact with E. I don't know how she can walk around with somebody who has severe kleptomania and eats food from every garbage can
His Master's Voice wrote: the utopia of one of them comes from a reasonable, or at least debatable idea
I don't think Ryan's ideas are "debatable" in moral terms. I think it's a great cultural failing that Ryan's/Rand's ideas remain potentially acceptable these days. And I think it is a triumph that racism, or at least stark racism (we still have a long way to go), is thought off as unacceptable as a default.
Manchu wrote: I don't think Ryan's ideas are "debatable" in moral terms. I think it's a great cultural failing that Ryan's/Rand's ideas remain potentially acceptable these days. And I think it is a triumph that racism, or at least stark racism (we still have a long way to go), is thought off as unacceptable as a default.
You have issues with meritocratic organisation of social life?
Let's be clear here, the idea that Ryan built from is not the reality of Rapture that Jack experienced. Let's not equate the concept with the weakness of the man that represents it.
Really wanting to get this game, just don't have the cash.
And this is going to sound crazy, but do they give the "bad guys" any real reason to sympathize with them? Even if it was just "do this horrible act and we'll let you leave unharmed, and you can forget this ever happened" level of simplicity. When a game just goes "LOOK AT THIS! LOOK AT HOW BAD THESE PEOPLE ARE!" it gets really boring.
You know, the whole "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and whatnot. If these guys are just lynching people for the hell of it though and waxing their handlebar mustaches while practicing their evil laugh I'll probably pass.
My issue is with Ryan's definition of merit. I have issues with social organization that rewards and perpetuates the kind of traits Mr. Ryan apparently found meritorious.
MrMoustaffa wrote: When a game just goes "LOOK AT THIS! LOOK AT HOW BAD THESE PEOPLE ARE!" it gets really boring.
Spoiler:
It starts with lethal doses of racism and then goes personal on you. Columbia and Comstock have no redeeming features, or even a hit of those, or at least I haven't found any. Even the leader of the Vox goes straight into blood crazed, child murdering commissar shtick almost as soon as you meet.
Melissia wrote: I have issues with the idea that it's possible to be purely meritocratic at all.
Duh. No social concept survives contact with reality.
Manchu wrote: My issue is with Ryan's definition of merit. I have issues with social organization that rewards and perpetuates the kind of traits Mr. Ryan apparently found meritorious.
Manchu wrote: My issue is with Ryan's definition of merit. I have issues with social organization that rewards and perpetuates the kind of traits Mr. Ryan apparently found meritorious.
We're on common ground here.
And in a similar way, so are Mssrs. Ryan and Comstock. They both believe in meritocracy. The question is, what is the condition for merit? For Ryan, it is "genius." For Comstock, it is "Americaness." I think they're equally problematic, even conceptually interchangeable. The difference is circumstantial, a matter of time and place -- particular context. But abstractly, we're dealing with the same kind of ideology.
With just one twist: while Ryan wanted to deny others his genius and the genius of Rapture, Comstock seems to want to impose his Americaness on everyone.
Manchu wrote: The difference is circumstantial, a matter of time and place -- particular context.
This is the point where we disagree. Mental prowess versus the correct skin colour and nationality is not circumstantial. One has to be exercised and produce measurable results in order to be considered for inclusion in Rapture, the other is a passive trait in Infinite Columbia. One is an act of will, the other a matter of chromosomes.
Manchu wrote: With just one twist: while Ryan wanted to deny others his genius and the genius of Rapture, Comstock seems to want to impose his Americaness on everyone.
That's the twist of a knife in a wound. Rapture is an invite only club where people go because they want to. Columbia is the social equivalent of a virus that aims to infect everything.
I'll agree that past a certain point of abstraction, the ideologies meld into one. Every group works by means of exclusion and inclusion rules after all. But the rules matter.
Picked it up yesterday having preordered it, spent about 4 hours today trying to sort out the hullabaloo that was my preorder bonuses. (I didn't get sent a download code for any of them, and had to spend an hour on a web chat with Game's customer services before playing through Industrial Revolution).
I've only played for about half an hour and I've been taking it slow to take everything in and I have to say that the setting is amazing.(I'd especially recommend looking out for a barbershop quartet version of "God Only Knows" by the Beach Boys).
Only a tiny amount of gunplay so far, and the shotgun was very fun to use.
All in all I'm definitely looking forwards to playing through the rest of the game.
Also:
Spoiler:
so far it's fairly obvious that Elizabeth is the lamb, and Booker is the False Prophet, but I'm getting the feeling that there's gonna be some huge twist somewhere along the line...
His Master's Voice wrote: Mental prowess versus the correct skin colour and nationality is not circumstantial.
There is room in Comstock's ideology for non-white people. He explicitly believes in the white man's burden, after all (per one of the audio diaries). How exactly non-whites will ascend is problematic. Same for Ryan: how exactly a street urchin becomes a captain of industry is not clear. They have ideological terms for these processes but in practice neither seems especially concerned with the terrible real consequences the processes entail.
I think this boils down to Comstock being more obviously wrong than Ryan. I'm saying, it's great that we can easily see that Comstock is obviously wrong. It's not so great that we can't as easily see that Ryan is obviously wrong, too.
I could see it, myself. Ryan imagined a world where only his version of "genius" mattered, except that just ignores the fact that Rapture's version of "genius" is useless without innumerable efforts of other people who either have no "genius" or have "genius" of an entirely different sort.
I'm very found of Elizabeth so far. She appears to be the only sane person in that accursed city. In fact, I feel very bad when she gets pissed off at me.
Back home, and like I said... I'll post up the "classes" from the Guidebook in case anyone is interested
Gunslinger - Emphasis on Firearm combat using weapons that cause crits like pistol, carbine, or repeater
Hat: Ammo Cap or Quick Handed
Shirt: Scavenger's Vest
Boots: Tunnel Vision
Pants: Head Master
Demolition Man - Explosives boom!
Hat: Quick Handed
Shirt: Nitro Vest
Boots: Tunnel Vision
Pants: Angry Stompers
Berserker - Melee powerhouse, bent on crushing enemies with the Sky-hook!
Hat: Ammo Cap or Quick Handed (I'm beginning to think there aren't many hats )
Shirt: Scavenger's Vest
Boots: Tunnel Vision (beginning to think the same thing with boots too)
Pants: Head Master.
Wizard - efficiently and powerfully attacking with vigors
Hat: Storm
Shirt: Blood to Salt
Boots: Overkill
Pants: Head Master
Defender - Focused on keeping Health and Shield meters from draining.
Hat: Hill Runner's Hat
Shirt: Shock Jacket/Pyromaniac
Boots: Vampire's Embrace
Pants: Urgent Care
Sky-Line Ninja - Focused on killing enemies fast and moving on, suffering as little damage as possible
Hat: Sheltered Life
Shirt: Winter Shield
Boots: Newton's Law
Pants: Brittle-Skinned
Sky-Line Sniper - Like the ninja, but focused on guns instead of fists
Hat: Throttle Control
Shirt: Sky-Line Accuracy
Boots; Nor'easter
Pants: Fire Bird
Manchu wrote: There is room in Comstock's ideology for non-white people. He explicitly believes in the white man's burden, after all (per one of the audio diaries). How exactly non-whites will ascend is problematic.
He doesn't. He's supposed to be the loyal dog that will not bite unfed and beaten. Comes from an audio log about halfway through the game.y
Manchu wrote: It's not so great that we can't as easily see that Ryan is obviously wrong, too.
But we can. We see Rapture. What other proof do we need that his interpretation of merit as a social function was wrong?
It's not that he's not wrong. It's that he might have been right had he considered merit as something more than the intellectual capacity of an individual*.
I don't see how we could say the same about Comstock.
* that's impossible, sure, but he was trying to build an utopia. He should have aimed for the sun.
Ouze wrote: Just a yes or no, please, I'll get there - just wondering if it's a loose plotline or not.
So I just got to the Monument Island Gateway and I'm gonna head to sleep now, so here are my initial thoughts:
First off the graphics. I playing on PS3 on a decent TV, and the graphics are really impressive, but there is so much lens flare that it actually meant that at one point I had absolutely no IDE whether I was actually hitting the thing that was shooting at me (one of those robot turret things) as it was on an airship and the only point from which I could "see" it in safety mean that the sun was behind it, so it became a small black blur.
Secondly the atmosphere. I said in a previous comment that I really like the setting of this game, now I haven't played any of the other Bioshock games (I got a free download of the first one with this though so that's my next game), but if the setting and atmosphere of those games is anywhere near as developed and interesting as in this then I'm really going to enjoy them. I'm not that far at the moment so motivations and such haven't been revealed, but even going on what I've seen so far it's brilliant (I especially liked the subversion of Lincoln).
Thirdly (and probably most importantly) is gameplay, which at the moment is very solid. The Vigors are fun (even if healing and restoring salt does feel a bit like skyrim) and the gunplay is good, even if the aiming does feel a bit off (this is probably due to me not adjusting the sensitivity), and what I've seen of the skyhook so far was very cool. The enemies have been quite varied so far, and I can't remember enemies from two different sections being the same so far, which is always good.
Finally just to make the point that the Scavenger Hunt trophy looks ridiculously hard.
Just ridiculous.
before I talk about this I never played Bioshock 1 or 2, so obviously I have no frame of comparison here, I'll just judge the game on its own merits.Its very immersive, I love getting lost just strolling around columbia, feels bigger than the levels actually are. Also I like the world a lot better than Rapture, which (from seeing my sister play both games) just looked like dingy hallways and leaking ruined rooms.
I know about the ending (read about it on wikipedia) but haven't seen it. The impression I got is that
Spoiler:
Seems to render ewverything you have done in the entire game completely pointless, being only one step up from "And it was all a dream" it worked in spec ops the line because of the type of game it was but here it seems jarring and out of place
Am I correct in saying this or is there more that text cannot convey?
As far as the founders and vox go I do agree that neither seems to have very many redeeming qualities, which seems out of place in a game series that is usually never black and white. The game almost seems to be a social history documentary on how the world was in the turn of the century, like someone read about this cool setting and made a game about it without really thinking what the message was going to be. Maybe the messge is that the 19th century sucks for most people, which it certainly did. Columbia as a whole seems to be an attempt to preserve society in its idylic pre-WW1 state. Perhaps its a tale about the dangers of escapism, by trying to create their own isolationist microcosm Columbia has simply become a hotbed of the loony extriemist far left and right.
Do you guys know where to find the codebook for the vox wall scribbling?
You've likely figured this out by now but
Spoiler:
There is a corpse in front of the wall with the coded message. Next to the corpse is a picture of the cannon in the building across the street with the end of its barrel circled.
EmilCrane wrote: someone read about this cool setting and made a game about it without really thinking what the message was going to be
Yeah, the game syle/message is pretty much what it has going for it right now.
just beat the electric "boss" , and some of the characters motivations seem pretty convoluted, its very obvious at this point they spent A LOT of time in art direction and story
Manchu wrote: Everyone seems to think this game is really easy, even on "hard" and not really hard on "1999" but just irritating.
I was having a hell of a time with the default controls early on in the game, but yesterday I switched to "Marksman" which is more to the FPS gamer controls, everything got a little bit easier.
Also I don't like that I can only have 2 guns at one time :-\ It makes sense, but I'm not a huge fan
As much as I have been enjoying the game so far, I am somewhat concerned about replay value. FPS replay, to me, is mostly about how interesting/difficult the fights are and while Infinite has moderately interesting fights, they really are extremely easy.
I beat the game yesterday and at first I didnt really like the ending, but the more I think on it the more I like it, it actually makes me want to play through the game again.
I loved this game. I would say that it is almost a completely different experience then Bioshock 1 and 2, but it stays true enough to the franchise and gives a new look at the world.
@EmilCrane: Are you serious? You put a spoiler for more then one game in the spoiler tag?
Are you playing on hard? I picked medium and my play has been pretty sloppy with little consequence. I am more about enjoying the setting and story on this playthrough.
Ouze wrote: No, I've been on medium. But I'm a medium kinda guy.
I've been playing MWO when I want to be challenged, either by the opposing teams expertise, or my teammates apparent first use of a computer.
I will admit in the "FPS" sort of style, I tend to stick to easy, rookie, whatever they call it. Simply because I'm not the greatest at FPS games, and some of the gun fights in games like Call of Duty are absolutely insane, but I said, "feth it, I'll try this on Medium." I've had absolutely no issue with medium. The game just seems like a bit of a cake-walk. Which isn't bad, because I'm enjoying the story.
Also I feel offended by your MWO statement, I've used a computer before, I just suck at MWO
Are you playing on hard? I picked medium and my play has been pretty sloppy with little consequence. I am more about enjoying the setting and story on this playthrough.
I'm playing on hard, I got pooched a few times early, once by the raven guy because I didn't realize I was being attacked, and most attacks seem to punch through your shield and start eating away at your health.
That being said, game is easy, straight up easy, on hard. carbine or pistol and some headshots solve any issue i've had so far, whenever i'm low, or get hit badly, the girl has ammo or health for me, its just not very hard.
Manchu wrote: What do you reckon is a better investment between shield and health?
I've been investing in all three stats evenly with my infusions. I honestly think though between the two of those, probably Health. I noticed my shield rarely gets cracked at the level I'm at right now, and with no much health stuff around, it's decently easy to keep it topped off...
Given how easy the game is, I figured salts would be people's first choice -- hence asking as between health and shields. FWIW, the quick regeneration of shields have saved my life several times -- but that could just be because I am playing so sloppily.
Once I've got a solid state of health, I'll probably just dump it all into Salts... Something about massive Crows flying about, or lots of Devil's kisses might be fun
The game is not easy. Once Handy men start showing up and you start fighting guys using Vox weapons, the difficulty ramps up considerably.
I'm kinda disappointed in it to be honest. It feels like there could have been more to it, you know? For example, you get this ability to power these generators, and you never see another generator after that level. You get all of these weapons and you can only carry 2. You get the ability to manipulate space and time, and it only really gets interesting towards the end of the game, etc.
Well, I definitely wish I could carry even one more weapon. 2 seems stingy and it keeps me from experimenting with other weapons since I don't want to get stuck with a bad one, and no ammo for my "good" one.
Ouze wrote: Well, I definitely wish I could carry even one more weapon. 2 seems stingy and it keeps me from experimenting with other weapons since I don't want to get stuck with a bad one, and no ammo for my "good" one.
I got a gold pistol and repeater for getting the Season Pass... I didn't want to give up my repeater (it's a good solid gun) for a shotgun... which wasn't gold
Didn't get a chance to play tonight, and probably won't all weekend... we'll see though.
Double XP weekend in Mechwarrior, so I'm out of this for the weekend as well.
So far as weapons, I like the machine gun and carbine. Good combo for up close room clearing, and long range sniping. I found the sniper rifle surprisingly inadequate for fulfilling it's primary role, so far as stopping power (specifically, lack thereof). Now that I've about maxed all the stuff I'm axing I might start buying upgrades for other stuff and see how they work though.
Is there a New Game+ Mode after you beat it? I might be willing to play through the game with upgrades and gear if there is such a mode. Or is that 1999 mode? :-\
I have just finished this game, 9 hours play with no brakes. And I must say that I enjoyed it for the most part.
Things I like:
-Elisabeth, it is really hard not to like her. I became pretty bound on her until the very end, very well developed character. -Booker, the man is badass... I don;t need to say anything more. -Graphics, as with every game Bioshock sticks to it's reputation of wonderful graphics. -Hook movement system across the city, it's very well done and quite handy. -Elisabeth special help, she toos you ammo, health, mana potion and money whenever she find them. She also help you with various other stuff, very well executed. ( as for something not previously done in other games it is excellent for it's first try ). -And of course
Spoiler:
return to Rapture, even of it was for a moment Loved how Booker commented: 'City under an ocean? Impossible..." yeah, saying that after seeing city in clouds...
.
Things I didn't like:
-The game is TOO easy, started playing at medium difficulty. Finish the game in 9 hours and I DIDN'T DIE A SINGLE TIME. I recommend playing at Hard at the beginning, and for those who want a challenge unlock 1999 mode. -No more mini games, I really liked hacking games in previous Bioshock...shame they removed them here. -Less RPG elements, aldo you have weapons customization ( but to be honest it is now way to easy because you can buy all the upgrades you have ), eating and drinking, collecting etc... you do not have freedom to change your unique items ( for invisibility, faster hacking, freezing enemy when you melle them... ), you can only change them once and that is when you pick up the next one. -Weapons, aldo weapons are cool they are too powerful ( literally finished the game using only rifle and a sniper ). Not to mention that many of them are out of place ( RPG's, machine guns, single person gatling cannons, semi automatic rifle ), the rifle that I used in the game is literally M1 Garand with extended magazine. It would be nice if they had that in the 1910's. -The story and the ending.... In story you have some choices but from what I have seen they don't have quite the impact as you have in previous Bioshock games. As for the ending... it has to be the longest ending I have ever seen in a video game ( after you finish last battle you literally have like half of hour more of playing ) it is also the one of strangest one I have ever seen.
Spoiler:
You gave your own daughter to pay up your debts, and in the end it turns out that Elizabeth, the women you are trying to save from the city, is actually your lost daughter. And that there are multiple realities and in the game you are also the main bad guy - Comstock, you decided to take your daughter from you in the past self and make her conqueror that will one day rule the Earth. In the end you prevent all of that from happening [ entire game with it's floating city ] by allowing your own daughters from multiple realities to kill you, thus undoing entire history made by you...all of them disappear except one and I assume that she live normal Human life after that.
In short, it involves multiple realities and a lot of head bumping.
Overall the game is fantastic, it deserves it's grade - 9.5/10. Even with this small negative things and somewhat confusing story and ending it is must play game. The characters are well developed, the combat is interesting and the graphics and effects are breathtaking.
Finally, after three big disappointments ( Aliens: Colonial Marine, Crysis 3, The Walking Dead: Survival Instinct ) and one meh game ( Dead Space 3 ) we have got one excellent game. Bioshock: Infinite and Tomb Raider are best games of the year so far, hope I will see more until the end of the year.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: -Weapons, aldo weapons are cool they are too powerful ( literally finished the game using only rifle and a sniper ). Not to mention that many of them are out of place ( RPG's, machine guns, single person gatling cannons, semi automatic rifle ), the rifle that I used in the game is literally M1 Garand with extended magazine. It would be nice if they had that in the 1910's.
I saw an explanation for this someplace, it said that the reason they had weapons (and songs, for that matter) from the future because they were brought in through tears.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: -Weapons, aldo weapons are cool they are too powerful ( literally finished the game using only rifle and a sniper ). Not to mention that many of them are out of place ( RPG's, machine guns, single person gatling cannons, semi automatic rifle ), the rifle that I used in the game is literally M1 Garand with extended magazine. It would be nice if they had that in the 1910's.
I saw an explanation for this someplace, it said that the reason they had weapons (and songs, for that matter) from the future because they were brought in through tears.
Yep. Same reason why they have cyborgs, AIs and quantum tech.
I didn't really like the game play that much, tbh. It felt too limited.
Corpsesarefun wrote: It's fun and definitely a bioshock game (rather than the cheap knockoff that bioshock 2 was...) but doesn't feel quite as good as the first.
Yeah, the first felt much better. Still, its nice to have a ward who is not completely useless. All "escort" missions should take a page from Infinite's book in this case.
Seriously though, do the choices do anything? What does the cage do for example?
Corpsesarefun wrote: I can't really put why I feel the first game was better into words, it just felt tighter... More refined somehow?
Yes, that sounds about right. Infinite felt incomplete to me (ironic, considering the name). The story and character development was fine. The actual gameplay...eh.
Has anyone worked out how to be stealthy yet? You could be in the first 2 games.
Corpsesarefun wrote: You can just crouch and hide from people easily enough out of combat but every time you attack, everyone seems to know precisely where you are.
I tried crouching, but I keep getting detected. I never attack first.
Corpsesarefun wrote: It's fun and definitely a bioshock game (rather than the cheap knockoff that bioshock 2 was...) but doesn't feel quite as good as the first.
Yeah, the first felt much better. Still, its nice to have a ward who is not completely useless. All "escort" missions should take a page from Infinite's book in this case.
My relief in the first battle where you have her at your side, and big white text comes up, "Don't worry about Elizabeth, she can handle herself in Combat" I was like FETH YEAH! and then proceeded to kill everyone around us
Corpsesarefun wrote: You can just crouch and hide from people easily enough out of combat but every time you attack, everyone seems to know precisely where you are.
you can stealth through a lot of areas, but its not bioshock where you systematically stealthily murder everyone you meet.
it looks to me like with the resources being used on all the moving locations, gfx, and such, the AI and gameplay really suffered.
enjoyable game though, just atypical thats its cool and pretty, not so much "wow this game is really fun!" more like a movie.
also not having a problem with vox guys, carbine is king.
Corpsesarefun wrote: It's fun and definitely a bioshock game (rather than the cheap knockoff that bioshock 2 was...) but doesn't feel quite as good as the first.
Yeah, the first felt much better. Still, its nice to have a ward who is not completely useless. All "escort" missions should take a page from Infinite's book in this case.
My relief in the first battle where you have her at your side, and big white text comes up, "Don't worry about Elizabeth, she can handle herself in Combat" I was like FETH YEAH! and then proceeded to kill everyone around us
Ditto. When I first got her, I was like "crap, now I have to baby sit her," and when that message up I was like "THANK YOU!!!"
Good thing too, because she is quite charming. I would hate to be annoyed at her dying all the time.
It may for example include Space Marine Librarian who found a civilian little girl and he is trying to save her while he himself being cut off from his brothers by massive Chaos/Xeno invasion. Add corrupted Governor and Guard in the game and you get epic. To made story more interesting add some Marine who cares little about civilians ( like Templar or Marine Malevolent ) and make him remembering what being Human is all about and why is it important to protect them, in addition to that made her very powerful psyker that Chaos want's to use to open giant war portal and claim the entire sector and you get Bioshock.
What would be more interesting would be if they gave you a choice to become corrupted and go to Chaos.
Tell me that you are not seeing it happening....
p.s. Just kidding, wishful thinking at best. But men can dream, right?
It sounds really cheesy...
Like one of those films/books where the bad guy was really just a misguided good guy after all and turns out to be jolly decent chap in the end...
It may for example include Space Marine Librarian who found a civilian little girl and he is trying to save her while he himself being cut off from his brothers by massive Chaos/Xeno invasion.
Add corrupted Governor and Guard in the game and you get epic. To made story more interesting add some Marine who cares little about civilians ( like Templar or Marine Malevolent ) and make him remembering what being Human is all about and why is it important to protect them, in addition to that made her very powerful psyker that Chaos want's to use to open giant war portal and claim the entire sector and you get Bioshock.
What would be more interesting would be if they gave you a choice to become corrupted and go to Chaos.
Tell me that you are not seeing it happening....
p.s. Just kidding, wishful thinking at best. But men can dream, right?
Yeah that sounds even less like bioshock than your original post.
Manchu wrote: It does bring up the good question of what makes a game a Bioshock game.
Just few very simple things:
-Dystopian setting. -Magic powers combined with physical weapons. -Variety of enemies. -Story that has great plot twist near the end of the game. -Interesting combat system. -Top of the line and also unique graphics.
I take my statements back. It doesn't sound incredibly lame or cliche.
The term "incredibly" gives it too much credit.
Jokes aside, Annoyingly enough, I was actually going to buy Inifnite today, but then I found out that, my computer can only barely handle this game according to the minimum requirements, so I'm putting off buying it until later. :/
The game requires 2.7ghz dual core and I have 2.67ghz dual core :/ the rest of my computer is fine.
My processor is aging and failing as it is, having been made in Jan-2007. It's had a good, long life. Just need to save up the money so I can get a replacement and take the old one out back and put it down like Old Yeller.
The ending felt very rushed...seems to be typical for nowadays' games. You just get bombarded with story twists...overall, still a great game. Love the setting.
Actually I have a question about that for someone more tech savvy than I:
The requirements say "Processor: Intel Core 2 DUO 2.4 GHz / AMD Athlon X2 2.7 GHZ". According to My Computer's info, I have an Intel Core2 Duo E6750 @ 2.66GHz/2.66GHz processor... I guess it exceeds the minimum? The different GHZ requirements throw me off.
Sigvatr wrote: The ending felt very rushed...seems to be typical for nowadays' games.
I guess this is part of DLC marketing.
Yeah, made that assumption as well. Maybe, they're about to go origin story on the protagonist. I was somehow disappointed by the plot twist regarding him though...it just seems like the usual twist a lot of video games make nowadays. No specifics of course, but I kinda saw it coming :/
I think I recall Levine saying they won't be doing story content DLC, because the game is supposed to be a self contained script.
Then again, the season's pass costs something like 30$. I can't see how could they justify that kind of price tag without actual story content being added.
Steam wrote:More Stories, More Weapons, More Characters. Extend the narrative and adventure with the BioShock Infinite Season Pass.
Extend the narrative?
So far they're only offering:
The Instant Day 1 bonus pack contains four pieces of exclusive gear, a Machine Gun Damage Upgrade, a Pistol Damage Upgrade, a gold skin for both weapons and five Infusion bottles that allow players to increase their health, their shield durability or their ability to use Vigors by increasing the quantity of Salts they can carry.
Considering I though the first Bioshock was extremely overrated, to the point that I actually stopped played about 1/3 of the way though, should I give this a go?
Manchu wrote: It does bring up the good question of what makes a game a Bioshock game.
Just few very simple things:
-Dystopian setting. -Magic powers combined with physical weapons. -Variety of enemies. -Story that has great plot twist near the end of the game. -Interesting combat system. -Top of the line and also unique graphics.
LuciusAR wrote: Considering I though the first Bioshock was extremely overrated, to the point that I actually stopped played about 1/3 of the way though, should I give this a go?
Yes. It really has nothing to do with the first two games, bar the part at the end where you
LuciusAR wrote: Considering I though the first Bioshock was extremely overrated, to the point that I actually stopped played about 1/3 of the way though, should I give this a go?
Yes. It really has nothing to do with the first two games, bar the part at the end where you
Spoiler:
teleport to Rapture
Ai, and that was in an alternate reality, so even then, it doesn't count.
Hell, they could meet Jackie Estacado, and that would still be passable.
LuciusAR wrote: Considering I though the first Bioshock was extremely overrated, to the point that I actually stopped played about 1/3 of the way though, should I give this a go?
Yes. It really has nothing to do with the first two games, bar the part at the end where you
Spoiler:
teleport to Rapture
Ai, and that was in an alternate reality, so even then, it doesn't count.
Hell, they could meet Jackie Estacado, and that would still be passable.
Spoiler:
I really apparently missed all, really ANY of the hints that dewitt is comstock, because that ending really caught me blindsided
There really is nothing I cannot do with my trusty carbine, once I got the original one in the office somewhere after you get Elizabeth I never swapped it out. Seriously I don't think I've enjoyed using a weapon this much since the M16 in CoD4.
LuciusAR wrote: Considering I though the first Bioshock was extremely overrated, to the point that I actually stopped played about 1/3 of the way though, should I give this a go?
Yes. It really has nothing to do with the first two games, bar the part at the end where you
Spoiler:
teleport to Rapture
Ai, and that was in an alternate reality, so even then, it doesn't count.
Hell, they could meet Jackie Estacado, and that would still be passable.
Spoiler:
I really apparently missed all, really ANY of the hints that dewitt is comstock, because that ending really caught me blindsided
Spoiler:
Were there any hints? I didn't notice any at all. Then again, I've never been good at picking up plot twists.
LuciusAR wrote: Considering I though the first Bioshock was extremely overrated, to the point that I actually stopped played about 1/3 of the way though, should I give this a go?
Well, if you can lend it for free I'd go for it. Otherwise no.
May I ask what exactly did you find bad about the Bioshosk? Or is it just: "nothing really good about it" thing?
LuciusAR wrote: Considering I though the first Bioshock was extremely overrated, to the point that I actually stopped played about 1/3 of the way though, should I give this a go?
Yes. It really has nothing to do with the first two games, bar the part at the end where you
Spoiler:
teleport to Rapture
Ai, and that was in an alternate reality, so even then, it doesn't count.
Hell, they could meet Jackie Estacado, and that would still be passable.
Spoiler:
I really apparently missed all, really ANY of the hints that dewitt is comstock, because that ending really caught me blindsided
Spoiler:
Were there any hints? I didn't notice any at all. Then again, I've never been good at picking up plot twists.
Spoiler:
I'm just a litle confused about it all, time paradox's are already mind bending but I think I'm missing something.
as far as I understand, old man booker hooks up with the time twins, which seem to be either husband/wife or more likely two versions of the same person since from a few logs the female one isn't sure if traveling through a tear will work but is talking about the man being on the other side.
I'm not sure what "comstock"s bookers motivation is originally, I'm thinking that in the original timeline he accepted the baptism, became the zealot he is, reached back in time to recover his daughter whose original fate is uncertain, creating angry murder machine booker. Eliz inherits her powers from being pulled through a tear and losing her finger (I think, whatever) This seems to be reinforced by logs saying that the powers were totally unexpected, the original tear was made by the time twins so there's no paradox there..
What this doesn't explain is why there's 2 bookers, but there's not 2 eliz's and other people, I wanted to think that we're talking multiple dimentions and not time travel, or maybe its both, I think that i'm thinking too black/white for this, because if booker/eliz followed the same rules as the people that freak the F out when they were dead then alive again, their brains should be paste if they were "replacing"
I /think/ this makes sense because on one timeline booker is dead so their cant be 2, on the other he is comstock, and on his third, he was wisked away from his apartment, so that makes sense, maybe I'm thinking because of the time disparity between bookers daughter being taken and old man booker, they don't exist in parallel like the dead/live again people, so only insanity/paradoxs exist when that happens and walking through tears doesn't seem to cause this. This might also explain one eye's insanity and why comstock was never at wounded knee or the boxer rebellion, he was, just not under the name dewitt since he changed it when he was re baptized.
But anyways, this is all going on the last line of the ending, without that line none of it would make sense, so maybe i'm missing some logs or something that ties it all together.
You could also interprit this the time bandit way, that booker/eliz/bird/columbia are really just this dimentions hero/little sister/big daddy/rapture and all those lighthouses at the end are infinite variations on the same story.
I liked the game though, it was more of a movie than a game, wish there was more big bird, I wish the ending was less "supprise!" and was hinted to just a little more, I feel that i'm pretty observant. I"m not actually sure where the baptism takes place on the timeline, before/after he gives away the child? I'm thinking it was before the child was born and that is why eliz ceases to exist at the end, which is sad.
Manchu wrote: It does bring up the good question of what makes a game a Bioshock game.
Just few very simple things:
-Dystopian setting.
-Magic powers combined with physical weapons.
-Variety of enemies.
-Story that has great plot twist near the end of the game.
-Interesting combat system.
-Top of the line and also unique graphics.
I have a question, we've got some very educated people in this thread, were you appalled at the racism in the game? I know Ouze mentioned that Booker was appalingly racist... but... like... is the racism in the game that big of a deal? I realize we're not done with racism in today's day and age, but like... It didn't affect me that there was rampant racism in Columbia... I wasn't offended at being blindsided by it (considering nothing about the game mentions this at all), in fact it gave me less "sympathy" for the police and firemen that were attacking me...
Corpsesarefun wrote: I think part of the problem with infinite is that I had no sympathy with the enemies...
Yeah. Can't really make an effective social commentary is everyone is a dill weed.
Then again, that may have been the point; extremism is bad, mkay?
And I don't think they were attempting to make a social commentary beyond "extremism is bad, mkay" much like they did with the other games. Corpses is right, I don't feel bad for any of the enemies, they live in a what appears to be a decently solid civilization, there doesn't appear to be violent crime, everyone appears to live in decent accomodations, and everyone is friendly... The problem is that the whole society is "racist" because their leader is a bigotous zealot that believed that Abraham Lincoln was a horrible man because freeing the slaves brought war and violence.
Just pulling my twitter feed back up, I'm looking at some of the tweets that I got, and they're saying things like, ""It's a white savior fantasy from the point of a white group of people who are defeating racism or whatever the feth." "Imagine if [Bioshock Infinite] was an all black utopia and they hunted white people. That game would be shut down and criticized so hard." "They fact that they give you an option to abuse a black couple or start a riot???? Like, the fact that they give you the option there?" "Man if it was a black person killing racist white people everyone would be so upset that ain't right. But the fact that it's this guy's moral obligation as a white dude to be the savior of all these black people." It continues from there, all basically the same thing.
While those are from a few different people, they all seem to me like they haven't gotten very far in the game. The two quotes especially. It's like they got to that scene, saw the option of throwing it at the black couple, throwing it at the guy, and were like, "WHY IS THAT EVEN AN OPTION?!" And didn't realize that the same thing happens regardless of what option you choose. I did see some valid points about the background scenery being an issue, but if you're in a utopian society controlled by a single person, would you not expect propaganda like that to exist in that society?
I feel like the game is getting flak for being racist when racism doesn't have much to do with the game. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but the game has to do with Booker getting Elizabeth back right? He's not fighting to save black people, he's not a savior to anyone than this girl that he freed, and now they're working to get out of Columbia, right? Or have I missed something?
I feel like the game is getting flak for being racist when racism doesn't have much to do with the game. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but the game has to do with Booker getting Elizabeth back right? He's not fighting to save black people, he's not a savior to anyone than this girl that he freed, and now they're working to get out of Columbia, right? Or have I missed something?
thats pretty much it, booker isn't very racist IMO, nor does he care much about the struggle or whatever. I feel that it is necessary though to get across the setting, and the whole "america is great, but is supported by a slave caste" thing.
Here's a quick review. The game play is good enough for at least one play through, maybe good enough for two, but the magic + guns combo is nothing special. To me, the magic felt incidental and I relied on my guns for basically everything. Mechanically, the most interesting thing about the game was Elizabeth's support role but I don't think it was used in any particularly fun way. It just seemed to have greater potential than what ended up in the game. Truly, Infinite shines in audio visual design. Columbia is beautiful and interesting to explore. I was happy every time I found an audio diary.
Story-wise, the game starts out promisingly but eventually breaks down into plain old pretension. I think the problem begins when the violently oppressive racist and classist regime is morally equated with violent resistance to that regime -- solely based on their common feature, violence. The interesting, unsettling, sometimes shocking problems of racism and exceptionalism that the game takes up initially are put aside for the sake of immature scifi. "It would have been better if I was high" is not a good thing to think when reflecting on a game's storyline but Infinite definitely qualifies for that.
Pros:
- fascinating, immersive world
- thoughtful portrayal of complex moral problems (initially)
- excellent portrayal of female protagonist
Neutral:
- gameplay is serviceable, suitable for prioritizing the story
- vigors are forgettable but the firearms are varied and enjoyable
- average variety of enemy types
Cons:
- story falls far, far short of its potential
Cons: - story falls far, far short of its potential
This... many liked the story and called it "comforting ending", but that ending was as comforting as Fate/Stay Night anime ending ( I cried for like 3 days after watching it ).
And the biggest minus to story: your choices doesn't matter ( Mass Effect 3 syndrome ), that was one of the biggest pluses in original Bioshock 1 and 2 where you could choose how the game ends. And the ones they put in the game have no impact on the story at all ( lame... ), but to it's credit the ending is done in a way that will left you mindf***ed for days. You jaw will also hit the floor.
I didn't feel mind fethed so much as just gravely disappointed. The ending was just the period of the end of the sentence.
Spoiler:
By the time you see the Vox wantonly murdering people and Booker is judging them to be the same as the Founders, the game felt like it was going in the wrong direction. By the time you find out Booker is Comstock, it's just like, sure he is -- who cares anyway.
Alfndrate wrote: Are you talking about Elizabeth? She's a main character.
Well, from being 3 hours or so in, it appears the main character is actually appaling racism.
But to answer your subsequent question, no - you do not need to play the prior games to play this one, there is no link that I am aware of between their stories. The gameplay mechanics are very similar, though, so if you wind up hating this, you may profitably skip going back to Bioshock as well.
Unless I'm misreading appaling racism.
But you're right, I NEVER got the impression that Booker was a racist, even if you played him as such, I don't really remember too many times that the game was like, "look people of color, mistreat them!" I mean the 1 time that I easily remember is the raffle scene at the beginning.. you get the option to throw at them, but you never do...
Alfndrate wrote: Are you talking about Elizabeth? She's a main character.
Well, from being 3 hours or so in, it appears the main character is actually appaling racism.
But to answer your subsequent question, no - you do not need to play the prior games to play this one, there is no link that I am aware of between their stories. The gameplay mechanics are very similar, though, so if you wind up hating this, you may profitably skip going back to Bioshock as well.
Unless I'm misreading appaling racism.
1.) Sorry for the giant quotebox but it seems necessary.
2.) I wasn't going to say anything but yes, you were misreading what i was saying. What I meant - and you can blame me on being imprecise if you'd like - is that appalling racism is so overwhelming it essentially became the main character of the story. To use a somewhat dated analogy, it was akin to saying "While Elizabeth Berkely was in Showgirls, the real star was boobs".
Later I became aware, accidentally, of.... later developments in the game plot that now gave my original statement an accurate, if alternate, meaning, so I saw no reason to say anything anymore.
3.) Which brings me to a different thought. Earlier someone (maybe Manchu) said the game pulled no punches when it came to race relations. I have to say that as the game's gone on (and I haven't beaten it set, since double XP weekend in MWO) I find that to be less so, by the pure and utter absence of the N word. I understand that using the word would have immediately touched off a media thing that would have overshadowing everything else about the game but if they were really being honest - how do you not use it?
4.) Did you guys know Jennifer Hale voiced Rosalind Lutece? I can't hear her barely at all.
This might be me grasping at straws, but I think the fact that the choices don't have any apparent influence was deliberate. Near the end of the game, multiple characters make the statement that nothing ever changes, that it's always the same outcome. It could be that the developers were trying to show off this inevitability by making your choices irrelevant.
I thought the story was alright, I might have been more blown away if not for…
Spoiler:
Having seen the movie Looper and the fact that the female co-leads in both previous bioshock games (little sisters/big sisters) were "daughters" of the main character. In the first bioshock you adopt the little sisters, in the second she's your little sister and always calls you father
And as such the ending wasn't as emotional/stunning for me.
I thought it was more linear than bioshock 1 and I don't see very much replayability especially since the weapon upgrade method was changed significantly.
I liked having multiple weapons in the first bioshock (along with multiple ammo types) since it made each fight feel like a puzzle. you had to match the right set of weapons and ammo and plasmids to the individual fight. I also liked how weapon upgrades caused cosmetic changes in the original.
Bioshock 1 rewarded exploration with a cool new gun upgrade, whereas in infinite you get a little sliver of health/shields/mana... big whoop.
In infinite the upgrades for weapons feel like an afterthought (in my opinion). No cosmetic changes upon upgrading and you might as well only upgrade two weapons (shotgun and carbine ftw) since you can only carry two. The guns handle awesomely though, easily the most fluid gunplay of the series.
The tonics are ok, I just wish that more of them had unique secondary uses. I think the first four or so you acquire all have a "mine/trap" secondary which feels like wasted potential to me. Also the fire and electric ones have less usefulness since the environment is lacking in both puddles and pools of oil (unlike the first where you could actively use the environment to your advantage).
The new “gear” is interesting but I felt that a number of the pieces weren’t really viable/didn’t offer much.
I thought the look of the city was beautiful and really swept me up in the narrative until
Spoiler:
you jump through 3 different dimensions until you get to one where the vox has guns and they trash the place
Then for me at least the city lost a lot its charm which left on all the zeppelins along with its people. Then it becomes a linear trip through dark and broken streets (which would be a great time for it to get scary but they don’t even try) with a series fights that I began to find tiresome.
Spoiler:
The bit with old Elizabeth was ace I thought, dark and spooky with enemies you really didn’t want to tango with. Shame it was over so quick and you were back to fighting boring old normal humans.
I liked Elizabeth as a character, she was fun and useful and charming however,
Spoiler:
after killing yourself at the end it means that that version of Elizabeth, the character you come to love, no longer exists which kinda sucks
However I thought having a few other secondary characters for both the player and Elizabeth to play off against would have been great.
All in all I liked it, but was disapointed that I didn't love it.
Mr Nobody wrote: This might be me grasping at straws, but I think the fact that the choices don't have any apparent influence was deliberate. Near the end of the game, multiple characters make the statement that nothing ever changes, that it's always the same outcome. It could be that the developers were trying to show off this inevitability by making your choices irrelevant.
Yeah, that's what I understood as well.
I still don't like it; it comes across as them trying to justify their laziness.
It would have been nice to see more of that nightmare realm with those masked people...seriously, what was with that?
I'm beginning to think Dead Space 3 has more replay value than BS:I. In DS3 you have different crafting options and game modes; in BS:I you have limited weapon options and only 1 different type of game mode, that's probably not that interesting anyway. And that's friggen scary.
Ouze wrote: Which brings me to a different thought. Earlier someone (maybe Manchu) said the game pulled no punches when it came to race relations. I have to say that as the game's gone on (and I haven't beaten it set, since double XP weekend in MWO) I find that to be less so, by the pure and utter absence of the N word.
I don't know whether that word was acceptable in polite society, which is what one sees in the beginning of the game. But anyway the game totally abandons its concern for real, interesting problems in favor of allegedly philosophical ones. That worked in the first BioShock, where you received a pretty astounding critique of the way you as a player engage video game stories. But the big reveal in Infinite is irrelevant vis-a-vis gameplay and, even less forgivably, vis-a-vis the game's setting. For example:
Spoiler:
How pathetic and anti-climactic was the game's treatment of Songbird? As I played, I kept thinking, how am I going to fight that thing? Who is it? What's its story? I thought there was going to be some epic confrontation with it. I thought very early on that Songbird might be a Handy-Man-ified Lady Comstock, a la some homage to Evangelion. Then I figured it might be another "version" of Elizabeth herself, at least once I had the choice between her broaches. Finally, I figured it might be DeWitt.
As I was browsing Facebook, one of my friends posted a very intersting theory about Infinite.
Spoiler:
About 15 seconds in, you start hearing an odd, high pitched shrieking. Many people have theorized that these are the death cries of the Songbird when Elizabeth teleports it into Rapture.
Thoughts? I think it's another cool tie in between Bioshock 1 and Infinite.
Ouze wrote: Which brings me to a different thought. Earlier someone (maybe Manchu) said the game pulled no punches when it came to race relations. I have to say that as the game's gone on (and I haven't beaten it set, since double XP weekend in MWO) I find that to be less so, by the pure and utter absence of the N word.
I don't know whether that word was acceptable in polite society, which is what one sees in the beginning of the game. But anyway the game totally abandons its concern for real, interesting problems in favor of allegedly philosophical ones. That worked in the first BioShock, where you received a pretty astounding critique of the way you as a player engage video game stories. But the big reveal in Infinite is irrelevant vis-a-vis gameplay and, even less forgivably, vis-a-vis the game's setting. For example:
Spoiler:
How pathetic and anti-climactic was the game's treatment of Songbird? As I played, I kept thinking, how am I going to fight that thing? Who is it? What's its story? I thought there was going to be some epic confrontation with it. I thought very early on that Songbird might be a Handy-Man-ified Lady Comstock, a la some homage to Evangelion. Then I figured it might be another "version" of Elizabeth herself, at least once I had the choice between her broaches. Finally, I figured it might be DeWitt.
Yeah, what is the songbird? The most you know of it were some obscure blueprints in the tower.
You don't even get to fight him for real, which is lame.
Ouze wrote: Which brings me to a different thought. Earlier someone (maybe Manchu) said the game pulled no punches when it came to race relations. I have to say that as the game's gone on (and I haven't beaten it set, since double XP weekend in MWO) I find that to be less so, by the pure and utter absence of the N word.
I don't know whether that word was acceptable in polite society, which is what one sees in the beginning of the game. But anyway the game totally abandons its concern for real, interesting problems in favor of allegedly philosophical ones. That worked in the first BioShock, where you received a pretty astounding critique of the way you as a player engage video game stories. But the big reveal in Infinite is irrelevant vis-a-vis gameplay and, even less forgivably, vis-a-vis the game's setting. For example:
Spoiler:
How pathetic and anti-climactic was the game's treatment of Songbird? As I played, I kept thinking, how am I going to fight that thing? Who is it? What's its story? I thought there was going to be some epic confrontation with it. I thought very early on that Songbird might be a Handy-Man-ified Lady Comstock, a la some homage to Evangelion. Then I figured it might be another "version" of Elizabeth herself, at least once I had the choice between her broaches. Finally, I figured it might be DeWitt.
Yeah, what is the songbird? The most you know of it were some obscure blueprints in the tower.
You don't even get to fight him for real, which is lame. Yeah, this is a 96/100 game all right
If I remember a voxphone I picked up...
Spoiler:
A tear opened up showing Fink the merger of a Man and a Machine, an irreversible process... I think I saw something online saying it may have been a tear that showed Fink a BigDaddy...
Yeah, we know where the handymen are from, but what about the song bird? Why is he so protective? There has to be some sort of interesting and tragic story behind him. He can't just be some random bloke they plucked off a the streets.
So, Just got the game and powered through it in one day. BLEW MY MIND. One of the best games ive played for story and graphics since... since... Bioshock unsurprisingly. It's absolutely stunning, Anyone who is having doubts should stop having them and get the game.
I was kind of disappointed with:
Spoiler:
The way things were resolved with the Songbird, Drowning it in Rapture? Meh. I know we couldn't win a fight with it really from what we see in the game, still would have preferred something though.
All in all a good game, Quite abit to do, I personally loved it. Especially Elizabeth and Everything with the Luteces (sp?).
Elizabeth is really one of the most likable characters I've seen in a long time. Which is made even better by the fact that you don't have to babysit her. AND she gives me money! Whats not to love?
I only read thorugh part of this review because I didn't want to go through spoilers. But it might add a new perspective to the discussion, from what I did read.
That was a good article, and actually does a good job at sort of leveling my views on the game in regards to racism compared to the comments that I saw days after it's released from several friends. Like the physically angry commends they made about how Booker was a savior for the black man, etc... I was like... "Are we playing the same game?"
Alfndrate wrote: Like the physically angry commends they made about how Booker was a savior for the black man, etc... I was like... "Are we playing the same game?"
They were mad because they thought Booker was being a savior for the Black man? Unless I'm reading that wrong they played the game very wrong. Even:
Spoiler:
When you go through the tear and Booker is the Vox's martyr you find a Voxaphone that makes it pretty clear that booker's still only doing these things to get to Elizabeth.
I dont think i'll be getting the game, the gameplay looks clunky and apparently they dont even bother with puzzles, just more charnel house slaughter like the first game. So i watched the ending and didn't feel it was something i needed to experience first hand, it was B-movie Nonsense. Also manchu put into words a sentiment i had, the ending is very detached from the game and gameplay itself.
Spoiler:
Like many people i was very disappointed there was nothing 'to' songbird, that first gameplay demo where elisabeth puts your hand to her throat and has the songbird relentlessly chase you had me seriously intrigued.
Next up when she says something along the lines of 'There's always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city' is she also referring to Andrew Ryan's son and Rapture?' I havent really thought about why thats significant but it might add a certain missing piece to a, imo, rather silly ending.
You know, people who have to have a physics puzzle in a game in order to enjoy it boggle my mind just as much as the people who have to kill someone in a game to enjoy it.
Perkustin wrote: Lol, better not admit to loving the puzzles in God of War series then. I like a change of pace, i dont like being constantly in combat mode.
Bioshock: Infinite is not "constantly in combat mode" either.
You can have a break from combat without having a lame-ass physics or block pushing puzzle.
It's not the same, i think you're confusing in-game exposition for a change of pace. Its not gameplay, it's just pointing the gun down and walking a bit slower while a cutscene plays. EDIT, to be truly great, Linear story-based games need puzzles or at least a distinct non-combat mechanic for a change of pace. It's not an open world game where you can do loads of other non-combat stuff while still using a lot of the mechanics.
The dialogue system in Mass Effect is a leftfield example, a non-combat game mechanic that abates the monotony of combat.
Perkustin wrote: It's not the same, i think you're confusing in-game exposition for a change of pace. Its not gameplay, it's just pointing the gun down and walking a bit slower while a cutscene plays. Linear story-based games need puzzles or at least a distinct non-combat mechanic for a change of pace. It's not an open world game where you can do loads of other non-combat stuff while still using a lot of the mechanics.
The dialogue system in Mass Effect is a leftfield example, a non-combat game mechanic that abates the monotony of combat.
Hmmm...good point. In the case of ME, however, I'd say that the cutscenes play that part - I often caught myself waiting for the combat to finally end in order to see the next cutscene.
My question is to you, did you go in expecting to be faced with puzzles?
I find a disconnect there.. I play puzzle games because I want puzzles, I play Bioshock Infinite because I want a compelling story in an awesomely designed city with a cool assortment of weapons (granted I'm still using my Repeater and my Pistol).
Like I honestly think you're walking into this game expecting something it never set out to be...
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. No game mechanics involved(bioshock infinite's 'firstperson cutscenes' for example ) = story, A Change of Pace (we both seem to agree on my implied meaning of the phrase at least ) needs to involve game mechanics, simples. I want a story i read a book, to be somewhat churlish.
EDIT: @Alfndrate. Its personal taste really, i like having a 'change of pace' usually this takes the form of puzzles. I get a bit tired of shooting face sometimes.
Perkustin wrote: A Change of Pace (we both seem to agree on my implied meaning of the phrase at least ) needs to involve game mechanics, simple
No it doesn't. I recommend you play Half Life 2 and listen to Valve's developer commentary, it provides some great insight in changing pace without necessarily adding in puzzles (HL2 has puzzles of course, but not every change of pace involves them).
A change of pace can simply be a breather section-- a chance for you to gather your wits, calm down, and take stock of your surroundings and enjoy the view. Space Marine did a good job at that, actually.
This is Kan Spam, there is much like it... But this Kan Spam is because I copied and pasted from my post at the bottom of the previous page and forgot to grab the spoiler tags.
A thousand apologies to MIelissia.
Spoiler:
I'd also like to point out that the ending makes complete and total sense... The thing you have to remember is that...there is no way to have control over your fate and your destiny. The choices you have as a player of the game are which power ups you use, how you go about the levels, whether or not we accept Elizabeth's items she tosses at us. You know, the choices that we as players are conditioned to think aren't actually choices... These are the choices that we're given. As the game winds down, we're treated to several versions of Booker, Elizabeth, etc... All of those we see are the ones that managed to make it to that point. There are countless other Bookers et al. that never made it to that point in the timeline. Yet here we are, we've made it by the little choices we've made. There is not saving or harvesting of little sisters, there's no dialogue where we can undress the weird blue alien chick for some hawt dry humping, there are simply the choices we make that got us through the game. And yet, at the end of it all... our choices are for naught. There is no different ending depending on whether the coin flipped heads or tails (hint: It only EVER flips 1 way), or whether we give the bird or the cage pendant to Elizabeth, or whether or not you choose to accept the baptism before entering Columbia, there is simply the ending for Booker.
Let me put it to you this way in terms of the way endings can completely ruin the image of a game. Mass Effect 3 had terrible endings out of the gate. Everyone wanted to be a hero in that game and were treated to a bad ending and a worse ending. As someone that beat the game recently without downloading the "extra" ending content, I can tell you, I felt crappy that all of my paragon choices were for naught. But I also couldn't get the "best" ending I could because I, as a player, chose to not play game after game after game of multiplayer matches to get my galactic readiness level up beyond 50% or w/e I needed. I have to live with those choices in my game. Yet in BioShock, I HAVE to live with my choices because there is no illusion that they will have any affect, unlike the ending(s) of Mass Effect 3. So at the end of it all, we're treated to a game that shows us a person, not a hero, who is sent on a job to escape his gambling debts (results of one of his choices before the game starts, again something we can't control). Booker even tells us he's no hero several times in the game. So how does the ending not make sense? Why should we have a choice in Booker's fate? We haven't had a choice at any other time in the game?
And personal tastes aside, the game never marketed itself as a puzzle game, or that it would have puzzles in it. I just think you're giving it a harsh criticism that it doesn't deserve because it never tried to be anything but. And as for the change of pace, some of the most important dialogue comes right after "intense" combat scenes...
Maybe we dont agree on the definition. I may be slightly misusing it, i'll openly admit it. I am aware of what you speak of but i still class those moments as story, they're by their nature non-interactive. Perhaps if i say 'variety' you may understand what i mean? There is only Combat and Cutscenes with a tissue thin veneer of interaction in Bioshock. I expect more from a game that isn't supposed to be something you rush through in 4 hours to train you for multiplayer.
Perkustin wrote: Maybe we dont agree on the definition. I may be slightly misusing it, i'll openly admit it. I am aware of what you speak of but i still class those moments as story, they're by their nature non-interactive.
Perkustin wrote: Maybe we dont agree on the definition. I may be slightly misusing it, i'll openly admit it. I am aware of what you speak of but i still class those moments as story, they're by their nature non-interactive. Perhaps if i say 'variety' you may understand what i mean? There is only Combat and Cutscenes with a tissue thin veneer of interaction in Bioshock. I expect more from a game that isn't supposed to be something you rush through in 4 hours to train you for multiplayer.
Okay, I'll give you variety, but at the same time... Like... It's a game to tell a story... In fact I would be more upset if it included puzzles, and other things that kept me from advancing storyline... One of the best things is that you don't have to defend Elizabeth during combat (she can handle her own, making her less damsel in distress, and more of a partner), and you don't have to go through stupid minigames to get into locked doors, you just need an item and Elizabeth... And you're not really bogged down with buying/finding ammo, health, salts because Elizabeth helps you in a pinch. She has tossed me so many Repeaters, it's not even funny...
It is still story, it is not using any of the mechanics bar 'moving the Parser' to use the, highly appropriate, analogy of point n'clicks.
You are not Altair parkouring his way up a building for some mysterious tidbit, you aren't Niko Bellic hitting a ramp fast enough to reach some secret area.
Edit@Alf, as i say, totally personal taste, alot of people really hate puzzles in combat games, i quite like them. I just personally feel a little queasy after lining up the tenth or so perfect headshot, or fetishistic 'Melee Takedown'.
Perkustin wrote: It is still story, it is not using any of the mechanics bar 'moving the Parser' to use the, highly appropriate, analogy of point n'clicks.
Not relevant.
Exploration is interactive, regardless of if it adds in new mechanics or not.
Perkustin wrote: It is still story, it is not using any of the mechanics bar 'moving the Parser' to use the, highly appropriate, analogy of point n'clicks.
Not relevant.
Exploration is interactive, regardless of if it adds in new mechanics or not.
You cant simply make these dismissals and absolute statements and expect it to wash. I didnt say it had to introduce new ones, it just has to use them in some manner to qualify as exploration in the game sense. You dont say you're Exploring a book by reading it
Perkustin wrote: You cant simply make these dismissals and absolute statements and expect it to wash. I didnt say it had to introduce new ones, it just has to use them in some manner to qualify as exploration in the game sense.
Which it does.
Perkustin wrote: You dont say you're Exploring a book by reading it
Actually, I would, but in the context of books, "exploring" has an entirely different meaning (sinc ebooks as a general whole are relatively non-interactive)
Perkustin wrote: It's not the same, i think you're confusing in-game exposition for a change of pace. Its not gameplay, it's just pointing the gun down and walking a bit slower while a cutscene plays. EDIT, to be truly great, Linear story-based games need puzzles or at least a distinct non-combat mechanic for a change of pace. It's not an open world game where you can do loads of other non-combat stuff while still using a lot of the mechanics.
The dialogue system in Mass Effect is a leftfield example, a non-combat game mechanic that abates the monotony of combat.
To clarify, you didn't actually PLAY the game did you?
Perkustin wrote: It's not the same, i think you're confusing in-game exposition for a change of pace. Its not gameplay, it's just pointing the gun down and walking a bit slower while a cutscene plays. EDIT, to be truly great, Linear story-based games need puzzles or at least a distinct non-combat mechanic for a change of pace. It's not an open world game where you can do loads of other non-combat stuff while still using a lot of the mechanics.
The dialogue system in Mass Effect is a leftfield example, a non-combat game mechanic that abates the monotony of combat.
To clarify, you didn't actually PLAY the game did you?
the more posts someone has the more likely they just post bs dude,
Perkustin wrote: It's not the same, i think you're confusing in-game exposition for a change of pace. Its not gameplay, it's just pointing the gun down and walking a bit slower while a cutscene plays. EDIT, to be truly great, Linear story-based games need puzzles or at least a distinct non-combat mechanic for a change of pace. It's not an open world game where you can do loads of other non-combat stuff while still using a lot of the mechanics.
The dialogue system in Mass Effect is a leftfield example, a non-combat game mechanic that abates the monotony of combat.
To clarify, you didn't actually PLAY the game did you?
the more posts someone has the more likely they just post bs dude,
Don't read this if you haven't finished it yet. (and Mind you, I haven't even played the game, not my kinda game) But I found something very intersting concerning the character that I find most interesting, song bird.
So yeah, don't know if this has been posted before but:
Spoiler:
You can hear Songbird dying in bioshock 1 at the piano part, theres videos on it on youtube, at work so can't really link them.
Regardless of my oppinion, having prepared this so many years ahead seems astounding. That, or they just happened to re-use an ambient sound.
Alfndrate wrote: I agree that the ending is certainly something to make you feel uncomfortable...
Do you think it ruined the entire game for you though?
It certainly didn't ruin the game for me, and it didn't really make me feel uncomfortable. I did hug my babies a little extra hard last night though...
Alfndrate wrote: Do you think it ruined the entire game for you though?
That's a matter of perspective.
Looking at the game backwards from the ending, yes it ruined it for me. Vitality dissolved into pretension. It's such a dreadful waste. Frankly, I don't think the ending makes sense as a matter of story construction. But the main plot mechanism, the dimension hopping, is all hand waving magic so the game's conclusion takes on a mushy, arbitrary feeling. That stands in sharp contrast to the enticing beauty but sinister not-quite-right-ness of Columbia at the beginning.
I think the game is much stronger looking forwards from the beginning and wondering beyond the ending we have. Without giving it a great deal of thought, however, I don't think this is fixable. There is not one thing of the many things that left me in wonder about Columbia that the story did not reduce into something far less interesting than it first seemed. As I mentioned, Songbird is the mascot for my disappointment along these lines.
I agree, I expected Songbird to play a much stronger role... That, and the difficulty of the game are probably the only things I dislike about the game. I'm enjoying my time with 1999 mode, but at the same time I still think that it's not "AMG DYING AROUND EVERY CORNER!" that I was expecting, but it is certainly making me duck for cover... Though the Bucking Bronco vigor coupled with the Devil's Kiss makes it far easier than than gun play... The only thing that is giving me issues are Handymen (which I should expect since I felt they were pushovers in the lower difficulty I beat the game on the first time)
I think the game is much stronger looking forwards from the beginning and wondering beyond the ending we have. Without giving it a great deal of thought, however, I don't think this is fixable.
Spoiler:
uh, how would it ever be fixable? since the entire reality that supported the cast no longer exists, columbia included
Manchu wrote: If they planned that all those years ago and still ended up with the current ending of BioShock Infinite ...
I know you wish the ending was that booker rode off on a flying dinosaur shooting lazers and riffing a guitar while escaping the shockwave of a nuclear explosion, but it isn't.
Posting over and over about how you're a baby and drowning out all other conversation is asinine, stop.
Manchu wrote: If they planned that all those years ago and still ended up with the current ending of BioShock Infinite ...
I know you wish the ending was that booker rode off on a flying dinosaur shooting lazers and riffing a guitar while escaping the shockwave of a nuclear explosion, but it isn't.
I've watched/read most of the story and I really don't see any problem with the ending. Hell, I'd say it's probably one of the best things in the game. Except for Songbird offcourse, Songbird is awesome.
If you're wondering why I didn't it play it. A story based shooter with extremely clunky shooter mechanics that wouldn't be out of place 10 years ago is not something I'm willing to pay for, good story or not.
@Soladrin: It sounds like you made the right choice. I don't regret buying this game but if I was the type of person who didn't care about characters, setting, or plot -- well, I don't think the gameplay in Infinite is enough to justify the price tag.
I do care abotu characters setting and plot. That doesn't make me excuse horrible gameplay.
And Alf, it's slow as hell and extremely basic. And a series praised for imaginative weapons (Which imo it never had) seems to very much lack any interesting weapon. It's your standard pistol shotgun machine gun grenade/rocket launcher mix under the guise of steampunky names.
Actually, while I was playing Infinite, I started to think "you know steampunk isn't so bad." I kind of realized that steampunk is just an aesthetic that is way overplayed. There are a lot of artists slapping goggles and tesla coils onto their designs but few of them give interesting explanations for them. With Infinite, the aesthetic felt like it was being used appropriately. The city didn't just float because floating cities are cool. Rather, someone had done some basic homework about turn-of-the-century American exceptionalism and the image of a floating city called Columbia captures that idea perfectly.
Soladrin wrote: I do care abotu characters setting and plot. That doesn't make me excuse horrible gameplay.
And Alf, it's slow as hell and extremely basic. And a series praised for imaginative weapons (Which imo it never had) seems to very much lack any interesting weapon. It's your standard pistol shotgun machine gun grenade/rocket launcher mix under the guise of steampunky names.
It also helps that I loathe steampunk.
Fair enough , I figured it might be a controls thing, and I was gonna be like, "ya know you can change the controls " It's fine, I felt the default controls were wonky if you came from a standard shooter (with an Aim Down Sight mechanic), so they thankfully do have that control mapping for the 360.
The Shotgun's Chinabroom iteration is pretty sweet, nothing like blowing things to ash
I tend to get trapped in ADS mode. I can definitely see how Soladrin could call that clunky. Switching between that and run'n'gun is definitely not what I would call sleek. Then again, ADS is about resource management where the resource is your attention/mobility.
Manchu wrote: If they planned that all those years ago and still ended up with the current ending of BioShock Infinite ...
I know you wish the ending was that booker rode off on a flying dinosaur shooting lazers and riffing a guitar while escaping the shockwave of a nuclear explosion, but it isn't.
Yeah, I slept on it, and I found the end to be pretty disappointing. I still enjoyed the ride a lot, but... wow, it went poorly at the end there. If you beat the game I suspect I don't really need to say any more, and if you haven't, you probably don't want me to.
I picked up this game partly because of what Manchu had to say about it a while back in the Damsels thread (and partly because a friend demanded I give my opinion on whether it was sexist or not).
I found the gameplay, such as it was, to be awful. There's the occasional creative moment, but nothing to write home about. The most satisfying part of it was headshotting stuff, and... yeah. There are way better games if that's what you're after. The combat was something to suffer through to see the next awesome story segment.
I'm not sure if I wanted something different out of the story than some others in the thread. I enjoyed the story and setting, and thought the ending was really cool.
Spoiler:
I saw something was up with the Luteces early in the story, and that was the plot thread that interested me the most and kept me playing. The Columbia stuff I didn't find all that interesting. Fun setting to explore at first, but tapped out somewhat quickly. Re: Songbird, I was delighted at how it turned out because I spent a large portion of the game dreading that there'd be some awful boss fight against him. I did expect a bit more info on what he was and why, but maybe it's in voxophones I never found.
That's hilarious because I spent the whole game dreading/eager for some scary/epic boss fight against Songbird. Eager because the character was so well designed and implemented; dreading because it's hard to imagine how one could fight him. Apparently Irrational also could not imagine it ...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: I picked up this game partly because of what Manchu had to say about it a while back in the Damsels thread
That's hilarious because I spent the whole game dreading/eager for some scary/epic boss fight against Songbird. Eager because the character was so well designed and implemented; dreading because it's hard to imagine how one could fight him. Apparently Irrational also could not imagine it ...
Spoiler:
One of the things I disliked about the combat the most was the enemies that felt like big slabs of hit points. The handyman was one; the fire guys were another at some points. I really didn't like the execution of those at all and expected the Songbird to end up either much the same or some Dragon's Lair die-until-you-get-it-right sort of thing.
The death mechanic didn't help, either. I felt like it was frustrating in that dying repeatedly on the same part (usually because I decided to try out some weapon that turned out to be lousy) but that the lack of reloading robbed me of the satisfaction of beating the fight for real - it felt like graveyard zerging the encounter down, if you'll forgive the term.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: I picked up this game partly because of what Manchu had to say about it a while back in the Damsels thread
So what did you think about Elizabeth?
That's a tricky question! On the one hand, I found her a really cool and interesting character. Some people have said they found her much more interesting than Booker, but I don't really agree with that - I wanted to know about his story, too. She clearly has agency of her own and that's strongly represented through the story. Despite that qualification, she fits the damsel in distress mold. I think this is another case where the trope is a problem without that being necessarily a fault in the stories - absent the cultural context Bioshock Infinite would be totally fine.
Actually, in terms of awesome female characters I found it to be quite wonderful.
So I just marathoned the hell out of this game. That I did a marathon speaks volumes for me because I haven't sat down for a solid block of gaming in this quantity since I was in high school (not counting the mass effect franchise) so some points.
It's good. Really freaking good. Like holy crap throw the designers some roses and stand for applause cause this was genuinely GOOD. The story and characters in particular made this game golden. The twins are awesome, Booker himself is interesting and Elizabeth is easily the best AI Support Character I've ever had forced on me, even if her item and cash spawn gimmick was almost too convenient at times.Not that I was complaining I really needed it here and there. Gorgeous environments, powerful score, I could give this game a tongue bath for a few hours on the above points alone. Especially Elizabeth's game play functions. Holy freaking HELL it only took how long to make an AI partner not suck? I really can't say enough for the story too.
Now let's talk gakkyness. Not that there's much to talk about, I pretty much agreed with a lot of what Total Biscuit was saying in his "WTF" review for Infinite. The combat and gunplay could still stand some more tweaking, the guns weren't anything new or exciting, even if I still very much enjoyed the hand cannon, because field artillery. In your hand. That's always awesome.
Spoiler time! Cause the rest of my issue lays in the realm of story, which I was just praising seconds ago you'll have noticed.
Spoiler:
Basically I felt a little let down by roughly the last couple seconds. Everything leading up to that was mind tripping AWESOME, the revelation of Elizabeth as actually being Anna, where the mark on Booker's hand came from, the infinite lighthouses of infinite worlds, times, outcomes etc. Not something I'd like to confront with ANY form of inebriation because I'm still having issues fully wrapping my mind around it. I still fell like opportunities were missed to dig into more of what made Booker the damaged individual who wanted to be reborn in baptism. Some more direct dialogue between Elizabeth and Booker on the nature of the revelation that he is in fact her father wouldn't have been amiss imho. Other then those complaints which I admit are completely stylistic, and not necessary to the arc, lead us to the inevitable drowning. That's the real weak spot. I don't know what it's missing or why, but it just felt... disappointing, sub par given all that had come before it.
Well, I took my time with Bioshock Infinite. I loved the first Bioshock, and when I mean love well, I completed in 2 days I think. This one, well, I took my time since I'm a "working man" now and "The Hobby" also ate up some free time but I just finished it and here's what I have to say about the end:
Spoiler:
Honestly, my jaw hit the desk when I returned to Rapture. I was in AWE with that small twist of a cameo, in AWE with the lighthouse explanation, completely in AWE with Anna's / Elizabeth's plot twist and then when I thought this roller-coaster of emotions couldn't get any better, BAM, Booker is Comstock, smother him ... I honestly can say I didn't feel a "kick in the nuts plot twist" like that ever since Bioshock.
Now, about the game: The twins are a big reason I loved it. Overall, they managed to create such amazing characters. Elizabeth is a NPC that helps, doesn't get in the way, is adorable (those beautiful blue eyes ) and the AI never fraked up. I can only clap to probably the best AI companion I had in a very long time. The city was gorgeous, really gorgeous filled with wonderful details, the scenarios were varied, I didn't feel like I was going through the same endless corridors hundreds of times and if that wasn't enough that "Sky Hook" mechanic was pure fun. My only complain about that one was that I couldn't rain death with vigors while using it.
The Bad: The combat. Now, don't get me wrong, I liked the combat, I liked the Vigors, but it was pretty much always the same generic humans, every single time and sometimes they would just keep comming and comming and comming. And the difficukty between them was unbelivable. The normal humans would go down just like that, the Patriots took some extra work but everytime an Handyman showed up, oh yeah, I would die, sometimes more than once in the same combat. In Bioshock 1 we had some extra variety of splices, droids and big daddies.
Edit: Oh, and out of curiosity. Who else found the guitar scene with Elizabeth singing very WTF? I enjoyed it the same, she looked like a Disney princess but the moment was so very WTF?
I admit, I also didn't get the coin thing, but now that we finished the game, we should understand the other scenes with the twins. Jade Empire was also one of these type of games. After the OMFGWTBBQ plot twist and end, if you play it again, you start detecting suble hints about the potencial plot-twist.
Anyway, about your paradox theory, I don't think there is one. Spoony explains it pretty well: We officially killed the option of becoming Comstock. That option no longer exists, never did, never will. Comstock is no longer a valid option. That means there won't be a Comstock willing to buy Elizabeth out of Booker. That means there won't, was, or is a Comstock that decided to use SCIENCE! to go back in time and buy his daughter.
This pretty much means there's a whole new future that wasn't there before because the Comstock option is / was / will no longer valid.
P.S: This was a very interesting review, my biggest complain about Spoony when he's reviewing a game is how he just can't let go the fact it's a game. He just tries to rationalize everything. I think that's a reason he didn't enjoy the sky-hook thing but he was spot on with the violence. I was a bit shocked the first time the sky-hook pretty much splits the cop's head in two because the game was just so...pretty.
Edit: Oh, and out of curiosity. Who else found the guitar scene with Elizabeth singing very WTF? I enjoyed it the same, she looked like a Disney princess but the moment was so very WTF?
It seems like the game went halo-2 during production, where they wanted to add a million times everything and had to scale back, the non-meaning choices and a few things like the guitar that seem to come from nowhere point towards this.
But it was Elizabeth from Comstock's reality that erased all those realities. If there is now no-one to erase those realities, than who erases them?
Spoiler:
Because the Elizabeth in the future never existed in the first place, because all the Comstocks died before that Elizabeth was created... yep, nice one, it's a paradox alright
Why is the Booker Dewitt that you play the Nexus? If there a million different decisions on a million different reallities, it doesn't matter!
It would be more logical to stop Booker from doing the atrocities he commited in His world from becoming the Booker or Comstock in that world, but in another reality he would still become the damaged one, the ending just doesn't make sense (to me).
Manchu wrote: The ending was terrible. The game began by dealing with interesting ideas and ended with the stuff of weed-fueled college debates.
Yeah... sums up my opinion perfectly. The game was still a wonderful piece of art. We just need to forget that the last 15 minutes ever happened, and it could very well be a game of the decade.
