čao bellas,
So I've been hearing in the rumour mill that there may be a new Guard codex in the next... 2 years? Am I the only one who is filled with dread by this prospect? I mean, sure, we're not top dogs codex-wise like back in the heady and horrifying Leafblower days, but it's an extremely flexible, solid codex that's made the transition to 6th excellently, from all I've seen. So I'm perturbed by the concept of a rewrite.

Maybe that's always the case with a forthcoming codex for an army that ain't broke, but I'm usually against knee-jerk opposition to change. Look how lovely Chaos Daemons turned out, for example.

So, please give your opinions on this topic. As a possible format, why not give your best hopes for tiny tweaks, or your greatest fears for massive changes?

*And apologies if this topic has already been done to death, I missed it*

To get started, how's about Forward Sentries letting you actually place your sentries forward? maybe a slight bump in cost to add infiltrate USR. Get yo' Tanith on!

This should be in News and Rumours.

Moving now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What is this topic about? Is it a Rumour or a proposal for rules?

Please make sure and ask for it to be put in the right forum.

I think we're better off in 40k general TBH.

I'm sure as/when we have solid or reliable guard news there'll be a thread on it.

It's a wild ride in this thread!

A new guard codex would be good for everyone. It's got some good-great units and a lot of bad units. Nerf the great, buff the bad, guard players get more to play with and other players hopefully don't face flyer spam or gunlines so much.

Would love to see a lot of things be more worth taking: rough riders, sentinels, ratlings, ogryns, snipers in general, grenade launchers, non-lascannon heavy weaps. No doubt missing a few. Not to mention going back to getting some diversity from doctrines so you can get rules to go with your tanith first and so on.

I agree with the above poster, I would love a hardback dex where all the units are viable and some new plastic kits! Aka medusas and rough riders!

Also an entry for the artillery platforms would be awesome.

Rough riders should just be a unit of veterans on horses (or, even better, motorcycles), with all the equipment and choices, plus the lance.

They'd be fantastic.

Given the current release schedule, I wouldn't be surprised if all the codexes had 6ed versions within a few years, regardless of if they 'need' them or not. The recent tau and daemons books didn't change the armies very much - just added the odd new unit and rebalanced others.

Current GW policy seems to be...

- update everything to 6ed as quickly as possible
- release a few new kits for each army
- don't waste time on massive redesigns, just get it out there

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Given the current release schedule, I wouldn't be surprised if all the codexes had 6ed versions within a few years, regardless of if they 'need' them or not. The recent tau and daemons books didn't change the armies very much - just added the odd new unit and rebalanced others.

Current GW policy seems to be...

- update everything to 6ed as quickly as possible
- release a few new kits for each army
- don't waste time on massive redesigns, just get it out there

Sounds fair. I just hope they keep the orders system, the platoon system, and the variety of available choices. Doctrines and the like to give more different types of formations would be nice. Or even a similar system to the 5th ed SM dex and the new CSM dex, what upgrades you give your commander messes with the FOC chart. So, unless your CCS has a Chim, nobody gets a Chim. Upgrade the CCS to a command tank, switch infantry-troops to heavy support, Leman Russ squadrons to troops...

Yonan - I personally think sentinels are viable... But you only want one scout, with no upgrades, whom is such a low priority target he can outflank or lurk and snipe/tarpit/contest. changed the outcome of a few games for me, my little sneaky sentinel, hiding in the trees.

Rough Riders - perhaps just a points drop and the option to take them in platoons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ModCrew - Thank you for the dance, I guess you could file this under 'wild conjecture and aspiration'. There's no real proposed rules, and no solid rumours. Just hoping for a sensible wishlist and a bit of gossiping with like-minded individuals.

The codex needs more internal balance, so I'm okay with a new codex that attempts to add internal balance while also adding new units and characters.

I'd be game, and fill out the other playstyles of IG.

Also, 40pt Vendetta tax, please!

 TheKbob wrote:

Also, 40pt Vendetta tax, please!

Could you clarify that a little? Is that the 40pt tax rate for high-vendetta earners? (terrible joke for the UK crowd there)

 Captain Roderick wrote:
we're not top dogs codex-wise

Tournament results are not supporting that supposition.

 Captain Roderick wrote:
I mean, sure, we're not top dogs codex-wise l

Ehm...you might want to check that twice.

Right now, IG are the most broken army in the entire game.

I'd like to see storm troopers go down in price and give Rough Riders (on horses, because feth you guys, I've finally found a good source for them! ) access to carapace armour.

I'd also like to see a return of the command bubble for all officers and a more useful vox, because a re-roll on something in shouting distance is just pants.

You also have to consider the fact that GW doesn't think in terms of who needs an update when it comes to competitive balance, all that has to happen is for them to have enough new kits that they think will sell to go ahead and pull the trigger on an update.

That said, I would love for them to update the Imperial Guard codex because, as someone has already mentioned, the internal balance is absolutely horrible; arguably the worst internal balance of any codex out there right now. I'm hopeful that they'll fix this because the 6th edition codices we've seen so far seem to have a lot less no-brainer choices in their FOC, which is great. Things I would like to see addressed:

They need to fix the Vendetta points cost (I think 150 would be fair). They also need to fix Heavy Weapons Squads (I'm not sure how they would do this but as it stands these are far too fragile and are not very points efficient). I would like to see Hell Hounds and their variants tweaked in some way that make players consider them over the Vendetta. Everything else I can think of at the moment pretty much boils down to points adjustments, which again is part of the internal balance issue.

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Also, 40pt Vendetta tax, please!

Could you clarify that a little? Is that the 40pt tax rate for high-vendetta earners? (terrible joke for the UK crowd there)

When you have garbage flyers (and good ones) starting at 170 and then look at the Vendetta? It should be about 40 pts more in cost. It was gross in 5E and flat out silly in 6E. The only reason I haven't seen more is because of actual model cost.

The book needs a lot of work on internal balance, as noted by others. Given how awful armor is in 6E, a lot of vehicles are in dire need of adjustment. Meanwhile, many of the infantry units outside of veteran and command squads are in need of lots of help, and even those are only really good when loaded with A: 3-4 Meltaguns or B: 3-4 plasma guns most of the time. Ogryn, Stormtroopers, LR Vanquishers, Sentinels, Hellhounds, Penal legion, etc are all very much looking for some help.

The book definitely needs some internal balance, as about half the codex is solid and the other half ranges from gimmicky to useless. I'd like to see the Elites section become worthwhile above all else; Stormtroopers are too cool to be in the situation they're in. I'd be more excited for new plastics than anything else though.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Stormtroopers are too cool to be in the situation they're in. I'd be more excited for new plastics than anything else though.

I agree with this a hundred percent. Plastic stormtroopers would be amazing.

I would like the 4th edition codex to be returned. Paratroopers!

As has been stated, the biggest flaw in the codex is internal balance. When's the last time you saw a Deathstrike, basilisk battery, stormtroopers, ogryn, bane wolfs, devil dogs, vanquishers (outside an Armoured Battle Group, where they're awesome) and so on.

Platoons and orders are good Guard functions, and make their infantry viable, rather than speed bumps, but there's still some needed, like heavy weapon teams, which are expensive and fragile.

The biggest changes I'd like to see are the return of doctrines (the most diverse army fluffwise in the entire galaxy ought to be more modular, allowing for paratroopers, mechanized infantry, armoured infantry, light infantry, etc), remove the vendetta's transport capacity and increase its price, drop the price on stormtroopers, allow for "veteran tank" upgrades, like vet squads, pay an increased price for non-squadronable BS4 tanks, that sort of thing. Basilisks also ought to be cheaper,and manticores more expensive. The cost effectiveness between the two is frightening, but I think that's due to GW over-valuing AP3 in the rules, much like how overpriced stormtroopers are.

Ap3 isn't the be-all, end-all, unless you're playing somewhere with no terrain and all marines.

Bring back Schaeffer and his Last Chancers! Not a generic penal unit. Give us Gaunt and the First and Only! Make Sentinel Walkers useful again!!

As a non-IG (Tau player) I have to say...

Russ' as troops? If Tau didn't get an option for Farsight to make Crisis suits troops, I don't see this happening. I DO see Russ's being made to be able to fire more guns on the run, just because they're not very consistent in rule making sometimes.

I'd personally love to see Rough Riders made viable again. I had modded up my own motorcycle rough riders a while back, but they kinda blow. Vendetta's definitely need to be price boosted, and the ability to take squadrons of them eliminated (no other flyer can take sqdns, seems silly they can)

I liked the 4th edition Guard codex a ton, but GW has been moving far away from customization in armies towards a rock, paper, scissors ideology where if you're a rock, you better take a scissors ally. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the IG elite slots stayed unviable as a way to encourage IG players to get allied elite units, personally.

If anything, you can expect to have more IC choices for commander with a different variety of orders than the standard one, and/or character upgrades for squads like Vets/Penal Legion/Ogryn etc. that make them usable, but not spammable.

I am not worried about an update. I started collecting IG models during 2nd edition and will use them if they are nerfed or OP.

Like others I would enjoy having some of the poorer units changed to be useful. They dont need to be better than average, just not a liability or free VP for my opponent.

I hope some thought goes into our vehicles because of the changes in 6th edition rules, but I am not counting on it.

There is a rumour of some large kit perhaps a Knight that will be coming out in the next few months for imperials and chaos. Personally I dont like all these enormous models that look more like toys to me than wargame miniatures. I would rather we get some chimera variants or a cheap command vehicle like FW makes.

I would not be sorry to see the catachans replaced with great coats or some other style of basic trooper.

If you are an IG fan PLEASE check out my IG renegade/undead modeling blog linked below and tell me what you think! Lots of painted models and conversions.

I'd like to see the Vulture added as a Codex entry. Because when I buy that lovely model, I want to be able to use it without issues.

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Also, 40pt Vendetta tax, please!

Could you clarify that a little? Is that the 40pt tax rate for high-vendetta earners? (terrible joke for the UK crowd there)

The 40pt tax is intergral to attracting truly world-class vendettas to the Imperial Guard.

JWhex wrote:

I would not be sorry to see the catachans replaced with great coats or some other style of basic trooper.

This. This. For the love of Slaanesh, This.

I mourn constantly for the loss of the various regiments. Please, find a way to make other regiments. I figure trenchcoats and gasmask head or fur heads would cover two types in one kit, try to do some ideas like that if cost is an issue.

I would love to see a new codex. There are a lot of units in the current IG codex that need some adjusting so they can see the light of day.

I would also like to see some of the forgeworld models moved into the codex such as artillery platforms and carriages and vultures which are all fun interesting units.

Finally I totally agree get some great coat plastic troopers. There would be a huge buying spree as all of the DKoK players suddenly increase their army size to foot horde.

I like the current codex. Only things i would change if possible.

1. Give the storm troopers the option of taking a valk/vendetta as a dedicated transport. Terminators can get a land raider, why no other unit.

2. Veteran drivers. Make this an upgrade for veteran squads. Make the chimera a BS4. Maybe 15 points.

3. Rough riders. This is a unit I would just scrap.

4. Hydra. Keep it at current point cost. Add interceptor for 50 points.

 martin74 wrote:
I like the current codex. Only things i would change if possible.

1. Give the storm troopers the option of taking a valk/vendetta as a dedicated transport. Terminators can get a land raider, why no other unit.

2. Veteran drivers. Make this an upgrade for veteran squads. Make the chimera a BS4. Maybe 15 points.

3. Rough riders. This is a unit I would just scrap.

4. Hydra. Keep it at current point cost. Add interceptor for 50 points.

Meh. Rough Riders are classic, man, and the conversion opportunities for them are more fun than any other IG unit, that's for sure. And, Valk/Vendetta dedicated transports? Because IG lists need to be able to go higher than 9 of them as it is?

Xyrael wrote:

Meh. Rough Riders are classic, man, and the conversion opportunities for them are more fun than any other IG unit, that's for sure. And, Valk/Vendetta dedicated transports? Because IG lists need to be able to go higher than 9 of them as it is?

It's not like people actually field 9 of them as is, the Squadron rules are hilariously awkward for Baneblade sized flyers, and if it's just on Stormtroopers (I'd say Valk only, Vendettas should really be a HS unit actually) it's not likely to be an issue. Nobody really complains about Valkyries, it's the Vendettas.

 martin74 wrote:
I like the current codex. Only things i would change if possible.

1. Give the storm troopers the option of taking a valk/vendetta as a dedicated transport. Terminators can get a land raider, why no other unit.

2. Veteran drivers. Make this an upgrade for veteran squads. Make the chimera a BS4. Maybe 15 points.

3. Rough riders. This is a unit I would just scrap.

4. Hydra. Keep it at current point cost. Add interceptor for 50 points.

Adding Interceptor is not worth increasing its cost by 66% for one USR. Likewise, BS4 on tin-can chimeras is not worth a 27% increase in cost to bump a single stat by 1pt.

We should get our jetbikes back. The ensuing nerd rage would be so worth it.

Recently returning to 40k, I must say I was disappointed at what the guard Dex has lost.
Doctrines, however where overly restrictive IMO.
Schaeffer and the Last Chancers do needto make are turn tho.

 BrookM wrote:

I'd also like to see a return of the command bubble for all officers and a more useful vox, because a re-roll on something in shouting distance is just pants.

I lol'd.

And not to mention not being able to order your own squadies in your chimera....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not sure what people mean when they say the codex has problems with "internal balance". If it means there are several units that have niche roles, and/or require specific tactics to be effective, then, of course! I just don't know that this is a bad thing.

 Las wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
Stormtroopers are too cool to be in the situation they're in. I'd be more excited for new plastics than anything else though.

I agree with this a hundred percent. Plastic stormtroopers would be amazing.

They already exist imo. The Eisenkern Stormtroopers are ridiculously good.

Snapshot wrote:
I'm not sure what people mean when they say the codex has problems with "internal balance". If it means there are several units that have niche roles, and/or require specific tactics to be effective, then, of course! I just don't know that this is a bad thing.

It means that some units are too bad or too good compared to other units in the codex, resulting in always taking some units and never taking other units. Because they're bad. And you should feel bad for using them.

Snapshot wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

I'd also like to see a return of the command bubble for all officers and a more useful vox, because a re-roll on something in shouting distance is just pants.

I lol'd.

And not to mention not being able to order your own squadies in your chimera....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not sure what people mean when they say the codex has problems with "internal balance". If it means there are several units that have niche roles, and/or require specific tactics to be effective, then, of course! I just don't know that this is a bad thing.

The problem is that they're TOO niche to the point that it's a bone-headed decision to include them over other units that can do the same job but better. It's not really a matter of simply picking your favourite flavour; if the internal balance was good, then you could take whatever units you actually wanted to instead of having a handful of units stuffed down your throat that are just so much more points efficient and combat effective.

Let's use the Sentinel as an example. It can take a few different weapon options, almost all of which are designed to deal with enemy armour. It CAN fulfill an anti-tank role, but why choose it over the vastly superior Vendetta? Well, it can start on the table unlike the Vendetta, and doesn't have the danger of overshooting its target when it moves like the Vendetta does, can score for you when you play The Scouring, and... well, that's about it. I can't imagine a situation where this meager list of pros could ever propel someone to field a Sentinel over a Vendetta, it's just not a niche that needs to be filled. The Vendetta just gives you so much more bang for your buck.

When the guard codex was on the verge of being rolled over from their 4th ed to their 5th ed version, I was nervous. I didn't think that the imperial guard really NEEDED a new codex. Now, at the vague verge of a 5th to 6th change, I'm VERY nervous. The codex really is pretty great as it is, which makes me fear that the only place it can go is down.

Really, there are just a few tiny changes that need to be made. Vendettas losing their transport capacity, techpriests gaining independent character, rough riders being able to assault out of reserves, and a little tweak to the killing power of the vanquisher and... well, that's pretty much it, actually. Not to say that there aren't some other units that could use a leg up, but really, most of the changes are small and easy.

The writers would really make my day if they only made small, incremental changes. As the thread title notes, it's not that broken, so it doesn't need much fixing.

 Ailaros wrote:
When the guard codex was on the verge of being rolled over from their 4th ed to their 5th ed version, I was nervous. I didn't think that the imperial guard really NEEDED a new codex. Now, at the vague verge of a 5th to 6th change, I'm VERY nervous. The codex really is pretty great as it is, which makes me fear that the only place it can go is down.

Really, there are just a few tiny changes that need to be made. Vendettas losing their transport capacity, techpriests gaining independent character, rough riders being able to assault out of reserves, and a little tweak to the killing power of the vanquisher and... well, that's pretty much it, actually. Not to say that there aren't some other units that could use a leg up, but really, most of the changes are small and easy.

The writers would really make my day if they only made small, incremental changes. As the thread title notes, it's not that broken, so it doesn't need much fixing.

Vendetta's also gaining about a nice..thirty to fifty point increase as well, should do it properly.

 Ailaros wrote:
When the guard codex was on the verge of being rolled over from their 4th ed to their 5th ed version, I was nervous. I didn't think that the imperial guard really NEEDED a new codex. Now, at the vague verge of a 5th to 6th change, I'm VERY nervous. The codex really is pretty great as it is, which makes me fear that the only place it can go is down.

Really, there are just a few tiny changes that need to be made. Vendettas losing their transport capacity, techpriests gaining independent character, rough riders being able to assault out of reserves, and a little tweak to the killing power of the vanquisher and... well, that's pretty much it, actually. Not to say that there aren't some other units that could use a leg up, but really, most of the changes are small and easy.

The writers would really make my day if they only made small, incremental changes. As the thread title notes, it's not that broken, so it doesn't need much fixing.

Tau got small incremental changes. Those small changes eliminated mech Tau's mobility and made markerlights a near prerequisite for competitiveness. The failure of the devilfish to go down to 50 or so points (because it really should be on par with a Razorback cost-wise) hurt too. IG don't need small, incremental changes. They need to be made into a balanced army, right now IG are really only competitive in a very template-style list setup, with the majority of the units being un-viable alternatives. Most of the IG options, like Sentinels, just aren't cost-effective. If they were at least cost-effective (not even the best in the slot, but cost-effective) the book would be better. For the Tau, at least all the units look good now, even the old Vespid's got a pick-me up. Sure, other options are better, but at least a Tau player can play a non-competitive list and still be viable. An IG player can't really.

I'd like to see some fluff fixes as well, the "DERP THIS ARMY AM CANNONFODDER" aspect has been taken to an extreme where it feels like a little kid has been making gak up as he went along going "Forty thousand regiments died here!!!" and "This guys killed a million of his own guys there!!!" just to drive the theme home that this is the army that goes on the covers of other army books when they need dead bodies..

Xyrael wrote:The failure of the devilfish to go down to 50 or so points (because it really should be on par with a Razorback cost-wise)

What? If you can't see the benefit of having AV13, a jink save, and the ability to fly over terrain, then I question how much you should be in charge of writing rules.

Xyrael wrote:right now IG are really only competitive in a very template-style list setup, with the majority of the units being un-viable alternatives.

Especially when you make statements like this...

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Vendetta's also gaining about a nice..thirty to fifty point increase as well, should do it properly.

Honestly, I don't think they need it. Get rid of their ability to transport, and they'd be more or less fine. That and make their sponson bolters more expensive.

Vendettas are probably the most over-rated unit in the entire game right now.

 Ailaros wrote:

Xyrael wrote:The failure of the devilfish to go down to 50 or so points (because it really should be on par with a Razorback cost-wise)

What? If you can't see the benefit of having AV13, a jink save, and the ability to fly over terrain, then I question how much you should be in charge of writing rules.

Xyrael wrote:right now IG are really only competitive in a very template-style list setup, with the majority of the units being un-viable alternatives.

Especially when you make statements like this...

It's a good thing they hire professionals like Matt Ward. The Devilfish is only AV12 for starters, and the 4+ jink save is nice for increasing the resilience of the model, but really I had preferred the mobility of the Hammerhead as a gun platform to its resilience; now, it has no synergy with the Devilfish or Crisis Suits and is only good for sitting back with the rest of the gunline, totally anathema to the mobile nature of Tau warfare. There are plenty of units in the IG Codex that just aren't worth it. Penal legion, Ratlings, Ogryn, Rough Riders, Sentinels, most of the LRBT variants, most of the Ordnance Battery variants, the Deathstrike launcher (unless you are just being lulz) the HWT's from the Infantry Platoons.

@BrookM - I agree, the whole Soviet Style manspam list deal is getting tiring. For an army focused on tanks and treads, I'd think that it'd have more of a Panzer-style fluff background and less of a Soviet manspam fluff.

Things I want to see:

1) A statement at the beginning of the codex saying "FW rules, including all IG variant lists, are part of this codex and you have our permission to call your opponent TFG and stab them in the face with a power sword if they say otherwise" so our fluffy and interesting Elysian/DKoK armies are without any question part of the game.

2) Vendettas go up in points to match their new effectiveness as flyers.

3) Rough rider mounts for a CCS that make rough riders troops.

4) Special operations upgrade for a CCS that makes stormtroopers troops.

Things I expect to see:

1) Combined squads removed. Can't have hard to kill objective holders that abuse the IC rules.

2) Veterans become BS 2, but get a +1 bonus to their leadership for purposes of receiving orders (just like Codex:Magic Laser Pointers it's important to have synergy between units).

3) Weapon upgrades replaced with a random upgrade table that you roll on before each game to see what your units have been issued. Half the results will be "nothing but a lasgun".

4) The awesome FW flyers will be ignored, and we'll get a $150 kit that somehow manages to look uglier than any other flyer released so far. Fortunately its rules will suck so nobody will care.

5) Orders will become the defining mechanic of IG. All of our units will suck without them, but will be completely overpowered if we are "smart" enough to use the order that makes all of our units BS 10 and ignore cover saves.

6) Leman Russes will lose the heavy USR but will only cost 50 points each.

7) Hydras will get interceptor, and have their autocannons replaced with four railguns (just to make Tau players cry).

8) The days of allies abuse will end, and IG will only be allowed to ally with Tyranids. As battle brothers.

9) Matt Ward will write all of the fluff, including an awesome story where Creed outflanks a Reaver titan carrying Marbo into the Eye of Terror and Marbo kills all of the chaos gods, but then brings them back to life because it's more fun when there are demons to kill.

If you can't see the benefit of having AV13

I can see the benefit of having AV 13. Unfortunately the Devilfish doesn't have AV 13.

Get rid of their ability to transport

That makes no sense. The entire gun + power pack upgrade is wing-mounted, the Vendetta's transport compartment is exactly identical to the Valkyrie's. You'd have to invent some bizarre fluff about how Vendettas are flying around with their cargo holds empty as punishment for their heresy in 6th or something. Which is silly when you could just increase the point cost to match their abilities.

That and make their sponson bolters more expensive.

The sponson bolters are fine. They only get to fire occasionally because of arc issues, and you almost never get to fire both of them. 10 points for a situational HB is, if anything, too many points.

Vendettas are probably the most over-rated unit in the entire game right now.

While simultaneously being the unit so overpowered that you refuse to play with it no matter how much it would improve your lists?

What I'm hoping for:

A new plastic regiment to replace the Catachans. Preferably, some combination of mixed-gender, greatcoats, penal troopers and proper grim-dark gothic science fantasy craziness.

Leman Russ to get reclassified as a medium tank, fielded in large numbers (like the M4). New heavy tank design with functional-looking suspension.

Infiltrating veterans, stormtroopers who can handle multiple roles, scouting rough-riders, long-range vox, models for all the artillery units.

Vendetta only allowed to fire it's lascannons while in hover mode because diverting that much power to the weapons means it can't use it's engines fully.

What I'm expecting:

A new kit for the vendetta at the same time as the vendetta is nerfed to be utterly useless. This kit will also make some kind of bomber-variant which may possibly be slightly less useless. Valkyrie also nerfed to bring it into line with new Vendetta.

A giant sentinel which counts as a monstrous creature. Armed with a gravity blaster cannon, which has over-complicated special rules and doesn't use Strikedown for some reason.

A dual kit of rough-riders and mutant attack ponies. Rough-rider rules still rubbish, attack ponies look even worse than the name suggests, but much better than rough-riders at the same role.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Captain Roderick wrote:
I mean, sure, we're not top dogs codex-wise l

Ehm...you might want to check that twice.

Right now, IG are the most broken army in the entire game.

I stand corrected.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Also, 40pt Vendetta tax, please!

Could you clarify that a little? Is that the 40pt tax rate for high-vendetta earners? (terrible joke for the UK crowd there)

The 40pt tax is intergral to attracting truly world-class vendettas to the Imperial Guard.

*Tips hat* thank you sir for having the same awful sense of humour as me...

 Peregrine wrote:


Things I expect to see:

1) Combined squads removed. Can't have hard to kill objective holders that abuse the IC rules.

2) Veterans become BS 2, but get a +1 bonus to their leadership for purposes of receiving orders (just like Codex:Magic Laser Pointers it's important to have synergy between units).

3) Weapon upgrades replaced with a random upgrade table that you roll on before each game to see what your units have been issued. Half the results will be "nothing but a lasgun".

4) The awesome FW flyers will be ignored, and we'll get a $150 kit that somehow manages to look uglier than any other flyer released so far. Fortunately its rules will suck so nobody will care.

5) Orders will become the defining mechanic of IG. All of our units will suck without them, but will be completely overpowered if we are "smart" enough to use the order that makes all of our units BS 10 and ignore cover saves.

6) Leman Russes will lose the heavy USR but will only cost 50 points each.

7) Hydras will get interceptor, and have their autocannons replaced with four railguns (just to make Tau players cry).

8) The days of allies abuse will end, and IG will only be allowed to ally with Tyranids. As battle brothers.

9) Matt Ward will write all of the fluff, including an awesome story where Creed outflanks a Reaver titan carrying Marbo into the Eye of Terror and Marbo kills all of the chaos gods, but then brings them back to life because it's more fun when there are demons to kill.

WOW that is some serious world-class cynicism right there. *slow clap*

The only thing I'd disagree with is that if Matt Ward was writing the fluff, it'd turn out that Creed developed his tactical genius just because he really, really wanted to be an Ultramarine, but never can be... *sniff*

(official disclaimer: I don't have a problem with ultramarines, nor a big problem with Ward (AKA the Michael Bay of GW), but, y'know, lulz)

 Captain Roderick wrote:
WOW that is some serious world-class cynicism right there. *slow clap*

Might as well get disappointed early and get used to it. The IG codex is already awesome, so there really isn't anywhere to go but down.

Vendettas should indeed lose all Transport capacity, it's a tank-hunter gunship
If you turn a Drakka Raider into a pew-pew raider, you lose 6 Spaces Marines sized transport capacity, it seems logical that 3 TL-LC takes quite some room, especially with the crappy designed generators IG has

In fact, Vendettas should be completely removed and replaced by a Vulture variant :
Replace the Heavy Bolter and the Hellstrike missiles with 3 TL-LC for + 70 points (or something like that)

TanKoL wrote:
If you turn a Drakka Raider into a pew-pew raider, you lose 6 Spaces Marines sized transport capacity, it seems logical that 3 TL-LC takes quite some room, especially with the crappy designed generators IG has

Except we have the model for the Vendetta and the power generators (battery packs, really) are entirely external. If you remove the transport capacity you just have your Vendettas flying around with empty cargo compartments for no apparent reason.

In fact, Vendettas should be completely removed and replaced by a Vulture variant :
Replace the Heavy Bolter and the Hellstrike missiles with 3 TL-LC for + 70 points (or something like that)

Yes, this is what should have been done originally, GW should have just put the Vulture in the codex. But they wanted to sell the new Valkyrie kit with overpowered rules and now we're stuck with the Vendetta. You can't just remove it from the game entirely, so the obvious solution is to adjust the point cost to a fair level.

I think the IG Codex is pretty solid as is but...

What I would like to see though is some love given to the model range:-
- New Rough Riders. I would like to see some really dynamic poses here. Horse galloping, Lance poised, body tense and war face.
- Plastic Medusa/Griffon kit.
- long coats and near future spec-ops, modular system so you can mix in with the existing Cadian range.
- Redo Catachan Jungle Fighters so you can mix in with the above mentioned (Belt on the legs and not the torso) also get rid of the roid rage arms.

Some new units I would like to see. By the way I am a massed cavalry charge nerd
- Rough Rider Commissar.
- Rough Rider Priest
- Rough Rider HQ

I think it would be a shame if the Rough Riders were dropped. The thing that sold 40K to me is the whole Historical reference meets dark sci-fi. To render the IG down to modern military in the future would make them generic and bland IMO.

Cheers Vim

 vim_the_good wrote:

- New Rough Riders. I would like to see some really dynamic poses here. Horse galloping, Lance poised, body tense and war face.

- long coats and near future spec-ops, modular system so you can mix in with the existing Cadian range.

This one seems to be cropping up a lot... And although it'd be AMAZING if GW did this, it'd also sort of put poor old Victoria Lamb out of business. But greatcoats and near future stuff would be great, and yes, giving RR's either bigger squads or the ability to assault out of reserves would be a lovely simple fix (I think that suggestion was Ailaros)

 vim_the_good wrote:
I think the IG Codex is pretty solid as is but...

What I would like to see though is some love given to the model range:-
- New Rough Riders. I would like to see some really dynamic poses here. Horse galloping, Lance poised, body tense and war face.
- Plastic Medusa/Griffon kit.
- long coats and near future spec-ops, modular system so you can mix in with the existing Cadian range.
- Redo Catachan Jungle Fighters so you can mix in with the above mentioned (Belt on the legs and not the torso) also get rid of the roid rage arms.

Some new units I would like to see. By the way I am a massed cavalry charge nerd
- Rough Rider Commissar.
- Rough Rider Priest
- Rough Rider HQ

I think it would be a shame if the Rough Riders were dropped. The thing that sold 40K to me is the whole Historical reference meets dark sci-fi. To render the IG down to modern military in the future would make them generic and bland IMO.

Cheers Vim

Exactly, I mean, I can understand if people want to follow a "modern" or "near future" military sci-fi theme with their army, but why do people who prefer that aesthetic so often seem to want all other options reduced or eliminated? If you don't want grimdark stuff, don't buy/use it, problem solved.

Peregrine's solution would be ideal IMO; give the CCS a variety of upgrades that modify the list composition or unit options. The fluff talks about all the thousands of different types of formations that the Guard uses, but all we actually get are Drop Troops, Siege, and Cadian-clones, not to mention that two of those are FW lists and a lot of people have to play against stubborn fun-haters who refuse to play FW stuff. I'd add that I quite fancy the idea of replacing the distinct Penal Legion unit with a CCS upgrade(called "Penal Battalion" or somesuch) that gives your infantry squads some of the rules from the current Penal Legion, gives the CCS Carapace and access to shock mauls, and bring back the Last Chancers.

EDIT: Oh yes, and I want my Carabinier back dag-nabbit! Let Rough Riders swap out their lances and pistols for lasguns and access to special weapons again.

Imagine if GW hired Victoria Lamb as an outside contractor.
- They make all her current range legit for tournament play.
- They task her with making all the upgrade packs for the multitude of IG armies.

This would be great. It would then allow Forge World to concentrate on the HH and tanks.

 vim_the_good wrote:
Imagine if GW hired Victoria Lamb as an outside contractor.
- They make all her current range legit for tournament play.
- They task her with making all the upgrade packs for the multitude of IG armies.

This would be great. It would then allow Forge World to concentrate on the HH and tanks.

A nice dream, but never ever happening.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Exactly, I mean, I can understand if people want to follow a "modern" or "near future" military sci-fi theme with their army, but why do people who prefer that aesthetic so often seem to want all other options reduced or eliminated? If you don't want grimdark stuff, don't buy/use it, problem solved.

"Near future/modern" and "grimdark" are not mutually exclusive. Actually, Verdun would look like a peaceful picnic next to a real, high-tech meat grinder. I can totally support those who want to eliminate/change/retcon the weird options because it would give the IG some well-deserved personality instead of the current "historical references in SPEESSHH" theme.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I can totally support those who want to eliminate/change/retcon the weird options because it would give the IG some well-deserved personality instead of the current "historical references in SPEESSHH" theme.

I can't support that at all.

Part of the reason I started playing Guard is the infinite cultural variation; the ability to play the army *you* want. AFAIK the majority of pre-5th-ed Guard players also have a bit of a penchant for military history and possibly historical wargaming. It also underpins the whole of the imperium culturally; a billion human worlds, barely kept together by religion, warp travel and totalitarianism.

And if you're going to point that stick at the Guard, I can't wait to hear what you've got to say about the Black Templar, the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves...

As an IG player here are things that should change:

Vendetta points increase
Storm Troopers - more effective - valkyrie as dedicated transport
Leman Russ - Lumbering Behemoth rule in this form: other weapons are not affected by the ordinance rule from main weapon (if it has it) and can fire at normal BS
Decrease in points for Hellhound and variants
Platoons - possible expansion
Rough Rider points decrease
Penal Legion - slight points decrease, squads from 10-30. Special weapon for every 10 models. Bring back special character for upgrade
Sentinel varients points decrease
DeathStrike - more effective - works as D weapon type of rule
Hydra - have the ability to choose between skyfire or not (like the current soulgrinder)
Ogryns - slight points decrease


Things To sell/expect (hopefully):

Hydra Kit
Ordinace kit (colossus, medusa, griffon)
Storm Trooper plastic kit
Two or three new kits/characters
Plastic generic HQ

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I can totally support those who want to eliminate/change/retcon the weird options because it would give the IG some well-deserved personality instead of the current "historical references in SPEESSHH" theme.

I can't support that at all.

Part of the reason I started playing Guard is the infinite cultural variation; the ability to play the army *you* want. AFAIK the majority of pre-5th-ed Guard players also have a bit of a penchant for military history and possibly historical wargaming. It also underpins the whole of the imperium culturally; a billion human worlds, barely kept together by religion, warp travel and totalitarianism.

And if you're going to point that stick at the Guard, I can't wait to hear what you've got to say about the Black Templar, the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves...

I didn't say that they should leave the cultural diversity behind. A Mordian Iron Guard is a Mordian Iron Guard in a tactical vest too. Yeah, he is no longer crazy-silly, but he shouldn't be either.

I'd sooner they add female cadians, female special characters, and of course the thing that all guard players love, more tanks.

 AtoMaki wrote:


I didn't say that they should leave the cultural diversity behind. A Mordian Iron Guard is a Mordian Iron Guard in a tactical vest too. Yeah, he is no longer crazy-silly, but he shouldn't be either.

So you'd standardise all IG models as Cadians?

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:


I didn't say that they should leave the cultural diversity behind. A Mordian Iron Guard is a Mordian Iron Guard in a tactical vest too. Yeah, he is no longer crazy-silly, but he shouldn't be either.

So you'd standardise all IG models as Cadians?

Pretty much. But not Cadians, because Cadians are also silly (IMHO), but more like these guys:

So lightly armoured, lots of random equipment (often mismatched), lots of face-masks/gas-masks, looks crazy-prepared but still pretty "roguish". And then we could add the culture specific stuff: skulls for the Kanak guys, headbands (instead of the helmets) and big knives for the Catachans, longer coats (not actual longcoats) and cooler gas-masks for the DKoK and so on. This way, we could have a full model range of plastic infantry with a couple "upgrade sets" and still everyone is pleased (or not, because they want their historical references in SPEESSHH).

So... Cadians.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:


I didn't say that they should leave the cultural diversity behind. A Mordian Iron Guard is a Mordian Iron Guard in a tactical vest too. Yeah, he is no longer crazy-silly, but he shouldn't be either.

So you'd standardise all IG models as Cadians?

Pretty much. But not Cadians, because Cadians are also silly (IMHO), but more like these guys:

So lightly armoured, lots of random equipment (often mismatched), lots of face-masks/gas-masks, looks crazy-prepared but still pretty "roguish". And then we could add the culture specific stuff: skulls for the Kanak guys, headbands (instead of the helmets) and big knives for the Catachans, longer coats (not actual longcoats) and cooler gas-masks for the DKoK and so on. This way, we could have a full model range of plastic infantry with a couple "upgrade sets" and still everyone is pleased (or not, because they want their historical references in SPEESSHH).

So..Death Korps of Krieg?

Rough Riders may be a classic, but the whole "angry Mogols on horses with lances" thing doesn't really work very well. I'd rather see a dragoon unit that works as mobile firepower (more like Empire Outriders from WHFB) as opposed to a shock cavalry unit.

As far as Valkyries/Vendettas as Dedicated Transports, maybe say Valkyries (but not Vendettas) are permitted as Dedicated Transports for Stormtroopers, but the Fast Attack section gets either 0-1 squadrons or buys individual flyers instead of squadrons? Mind that Armored Company gets 0-1 Vendetta/Vulture squadrons and Lightnings/Thunderbolts/Avengers as HS, and Elysians get Valkyries as Dedicated Transports everywhere and Vendettas/Vultures/Lightnings/Thunderbolts/Avengers in other slots, regular IG are far from the most flyer-heavy Guard list in the rules.

Yeah, I cannot agree, AtoMaki. Modern look is just boring. I want IG to be an absurd anachronistic mishmash.

I like the modern look, but I think Cadians do just fine as a compromise between modern and sci-fi.

*shudders* Well, Atomaki, this is a thread for aspirations for the next IG dex, and YMMV - but I have to say, I really hope you don't get your wish.

The Guard is BIG The Guard is STUPID The Guard likes BIG GUNS The Guard likes SEND IN THE NEXT WAVE The Guard likes TANKS The Guard likes CAVALRY CHARGES The Guard likes DUDES WITH SPEARS VS TYRANIDS The Guard likes LOSING 100 BANEBLADES The Guard has FLASHLIGHTS The Guard has QUANTITY The Guard DOES NOT DO STANDARDISATION WELL...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit:
The Guard likes BLAMMING...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Guard finds A SLEDGEHAMMER IS THE ONLY TOOL YOU NEED


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know where I'm going with this...

-Ogren: Some sort of fix, Making their Melee Attacks Rending or the Bone-Head being able to take a Special Melee Weapon.

Commissars: Make 0-5 Available to be placed any ware. This includes as Tank Commanders or as a Rough Rider.

Marbo: Allow him to Assault out of reserves and/or make his Save a 5+/5++

-Rough Riders: These are the ones I would like to see.
 Rough Rider Company Command Squad that makes Rough Riders a Troop Choice. Also give them Power Lances as an option.
 Let Rough Riders trade out their Lance for a second Las-Pistol.
 Make Power Laces as a Weapon Option.
 Make Combat Shields a Option
 Give them Out-Flank as an option.
 Toughness 4
 An Elite Variant with Twin-Hot Shot Las Pistols, Carapace Armor and Melta-Bombs for all.

 Captain Roderick wrote:
The Guard DOES NOT DO STANDARDISATION WELL...

Do you even Lasgun ? Or Leman Russ/Chimera? I guess you do know that these are all standardized stuff, and without them, the IG wouldn't even exist? Their whole organization is based on standardization for crying out loud!

So I'm not sure if you are serious...

Too many powergamers in this thread who're saying the IG codex is perfect simply because they can spam vendettas.

I want to see foot infantry viable, ideally vets *and* PISs. And I'm sick of simply spamming meltaguns with my troops, I want more options that can compete.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Captain Roderick wrote:
The Guard DOES NOT DO STANDARDISATION WELL...

Do you even Lasgun ? Or Leman Russ/Chimera? I guess you do know that these are all standardized stuff, and without them, the IG wouldn't even exist? Their whole organization is based on standardization for crying out loud!

So I'm not sure if you are serious...

I DO lasgun. Every day. twice on Sundays...



Yeah I kindof lost the plot there.

Standardisation of a lot of stuff is in place and is fair. But I think standard uniforms aren't part of the deal - there's plenty of justification that can be made either way. Since Forgeworlds already pump out the lasguns and tanks, why not have them pump out flak suits and fatigues as well?

On the other hand, there is regimental pride. These poor schmucks aren't going home again, and feeling like a cohesive unit is a very important part of their morale. Feeling special. Just like in the British Army, a piddling force by IG standards, there's loads of little variations allowed, at least in dress uniform, to give recognition and pride to specific units. Gloucesters having a cap badge on the front and back, the Black Watch Hackle, to name just a couple. I see the uniform variations as necessary concessions to pride and morale.

I agree with the guard book to be rebalanced from the abusers while still being allowed to bring back the fun diversity.

Things I hope for:
Doctrines expanded from Vets to the rest of the IG line as upgrades to allow Heavy Infantry, Deathworld, etc.
Totally agree with Rough Rider HQs/Commissars - also wish for the older customization options we had for Rough Riders to come back so they are not just Lancers. Would like to revisit my old plans for Carabiners, Hussars, and Cuirassiers and maybe Dragoons.
All the poor bastards of this codex (Penal squads, Ogryns, SWS, Snipers, Conscripts, etc.) to get some loving.
Certain weapons from the Guard to get much needed boosts such as the Mortars (can the Imperium's Budgeting Committee please issue them other ammo types like Smoke, Phosphorus, or something?), Grenade Launchers, Shotguns (if you have to change them entirely from the standard junk Shotgun then just call them Guard 'Trench guns' or something).

Things I would love but probably won't see the light of day:
Hive Gang Militia/Necromundan Spiders (could be absorbed with Penal squads if done right this time)
Heavy Stubbers on foot
Engineer Support Unit

 AtoMaki wrote:
Do you even Lasgun ? Or Leman Russ/Chimera? I guess you do know that these are all standardized stuff, and without them, the IG wouldn't even exist? Their whole organization is based on standardization for crying out loud!

Only as far as basic equipment that can be easily replicated, maintained & repaired and is available in great abundance. There is no standardised size to an Imperial Guard regiment, there is no standardised way of organising each regiment, there is no standardised uniform or webbing, the officers ranks aren't standardised, the languages used aren't standardised beyond a basic understanding of Low Gothic for communication purposes in the field between different regiments from different worlds. With a million worlds (give or take a few) there will always be -huge- amounts of variation. Look how varied our armies are on our world and that's just one planet. Now try standardising the unimaginable number of Guardsmen across an entire galaxy - impossible.

Actually, even with standardised items like the lasgun, there's a lot of variety. There's the M36 Lasgun, the Mars & Necromunda patterns, the Triplex, the '96 Lucius pattern, the Accatran pattern Mk. IV and many, many other variants that all fire on different power settings, are made from different materials and in different designs - the folding stock lasguns of the Steel Legion are utterly different to the intricate & archaic looking weapons of the Vostroyans. Same goes for Leman-Russ battletanks - the Ryza pattern, often in use with the Death Korp, is equipped with co-axial stubbers besides the main weapon on the Vanquisher pattern - the regular Mars pattern doesn't have that (as well as a different shape to the turret). The basic workings are standardised but there's still a lot of variation.

If the Guard ever became as dull as I find Space Marines, with just one appearance fits all, I'd quit 40k there and then. I have little love for the Cadian & Catachan plastics as it is and I'd much, much rather there were boxes of plastics for the various regiments even if it was just for infantry squads to start with.

As a last note on that, you can't change the respirators of the Death Korps. Every part of the Death Korp uniform, from their respirators to the colour-coded unit identification tabs on their greatcoats, is drawn from the uniforms of one of the major armies involved in the Western Front of the Great War. The respirators themselves are based on British & German designs and thus they can't be altered without ruining the inspiration behind the Death Korps uniform.

As for a new Guard Codex? Errr, I can wait. Seriously I can. I like the 5th Edition codex still and I'd much rather other forces recieved their look-in first (especially Orks. Poor Orks, they've had to wait so long for a new Codex, not quite as long as Eldar but long enough). When Guard do get their update, what would I like to see in it?

HQ:
Introduce Rough Rider Company/Squadron Command Squad
Elites:
Stormtroopers repointed & reworked - current ones aren't up to scratch compared to Veteran squads
Introduce some form of Elite Rough Riders, maybe in carapace armour with option of power lances
Troops:
If taking Rough Rider Company/Squadron Command Squad then Rough Riders become troops (I want a lancer army dammit!)
Sergeants in Infantry squads get to take lasguns as an option - I'd rather have the extra lasgun in there than a laspistol & chainsword
Fast Attack:
Rough Riders get to have both sword & laspistol in addition to their hunting lance, as well as the Sergeant being able to take a power lance.
Thunderbolt added either as Fast Attack or Heavy Support
Heavy Support:
See above (Thunderbolt)

I would love to see Rough Riders improved. I've wanted a squad of the little Mongols in my army for the longest time, and have never felt the need to use them.

Another option I would like to see is the old RT Assualt Squads, Twin-Las-Pistols and Jump Packs.
Comisar Traning Squads
Bomb Squads
and the return of Beastmen

I'd like to see an enormous expansion in the number of Platoons available to you. Rather than the single option that exists now, allow a variety of different regiments purely by expanding the flexibility of the core unit.
These additional Platoons would likely require a fixed cost to the Platoon Command Squad, thus simultaneously introducing a balancing aspect while also promoting large platoons.
You could even expand it with specific Orders unique to each Platoon.


Eg.
Infantry Platoon- As we love them. Exactly as printed.

Light Infantry Platoon- All models reduce Flak Armour to Flak Vests (6+) but gain Stealth and Move through Cover. Platoon loses the ability to take Heavy Weapon squads and Conscripts, but instead can take 0-2 Scout Sentinels as attachments.

Heavy Infantry Platoon- All models upgrade Flak Armour to Carapace Armour (4+) and gain Flak Grenades. Platoon loses the option for Conscripts and Chimerae, relatively expensive cost to the Platoon Command.

Airborne Platoon- All models gain access to Valkyries (NOT Vendetta) as a Dedicated Transport. Lose access to Chimerae, Conscipts and anything heavier than a Mortar team, in exchange for expanded access to Demopacks.

Mechanised Platoon- All squads, including Support / Heavy elements, gain access to Chimerae. All units in the Platoon must be mounted. Trade Heavy Weapon teams for Hellhound / Devildog attachments.

Heavy Weapons Platoon- Lose access to special weapon teams in exchange for increases access to Heavy Weapon teams.


The Company Command Squad would have similar options, though rather than Platoon composition, we would see entirely new Platoons being made available.
You could upgrade them to a Stormtrooper Command, giving you the 'elite' Guard army. Similarly giving the Command Squad horses would allow Platoons of Rough Riders.

I recall that on the leaked "product release" list that's been floating around, there were plastic stormtroopers/veterans dual kits and a hyrda listed, but that's it for Guard.

Guard's kind of in an odd place, it's got a solid ruleset, some units are too powerful, some units aren't viable, so they lack much flexibility in terms of "competitive" lists, but can still perform alright with their less effective units. However, their model range is old, a lot of it doesn't look very good (infantry in particular), and many options are still missing. The Russ, Chimera, Valkyrie, Manticore/Deathstrike and Sentinel are probably the only genuinely good looking models they have.

In terms of model releases,as I've already touched on rules in earlier posts, and broadly agree with what others are saying (especially the old Doctrines, I think that's key to representing how much variance there is in the Guard), there's a few key kits which need to come out:

Artillery: Basilisk, Griffon, Bombard, Medusa kit. They all use the same chassis, but have different gun assemblies. It'd probably be an expensive kit, due to the fact the guns are moderately different.

Stormtroopers: These are all but certain to be released in plastic, they're some of the only metal infantry left in the main ranges, and one of the best looking. I don't know, however, whether they'll keep the Kasrkin aesthetic (which are awesome looking) or the Stormtrooper aesthetic (which is alright looking, but the models are so horribly cast it's hard to say). If they make this a dual kit for vets, as has been indicated, it needs some actual special weapons other than flamers and grenade launchers. New kits have been good at providing weapon options, so we can hope.

Catachans: this line either needs a major revamp, or be dropped in favour of another plastic guard line. Cadians are alright, bobble heads aside, and unlikely to change, but Catachans look awful, and they aren't selling. My FLGS has half a dozen guard players, and a dozen + guard customers who don't play there, and everything sells but the catachans. I doubt that's a unique scenario. These guys either need to be de-ramboified, or replaced with the more conventional sci-fi look people want, with great coats, different helmets, something which can be mixed with Cadians to make a wide variety of good looking Guard, something you can't really do with Catachans.

Rough Riders: There's no existent model, but since rules for them suck, they only really need them if they are made worthwhile. Release a model for a garbage unit, it ain't gonna sell much.

In general, one thing the Guard desperately need is access to special weapons. When vets can take 3, SWS can take 3, Storms can take 2, CCS can take 4 and so on, and there is only the one plasma and melta gun in the command box, it becomes a royal nightmare to get weapons, especially weapons which fit them well. I don't like the alternative of either buying the very expensive metal special weapon gunners, or having to use poorly-scaled marine special weapons for everything, so for the love of the Emperor, give us some bloody special weapons, when we're arguably the heaviest users of special weapons in the game.

Also, I'd like to see a plastic multipart Commissar character with some customization options; they're popular, flavourful and useful units to the Guard, and while the metal models aren't bad, they're showing their age, and look like crap against FW's Commissar set.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I'd like to see the Vulture added as a Codex entry. Because when I buy that lovely model, I want to be able to use it without issues.

This, a thousand times this. I'm surprised it wasn't included this time around tbh.

Also, granting Stormtroopers the "Storm the Objective" special rule would make me extremely happy.
(Found in the Apocalypse datasheet: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2620180_NEW_Imperial_Guard_-_Storm_Trooper_Strike_Force.pdf)

Past-scriptorum- plastic Stromtroopers have been rumored for years, to no avail. I'm not holding my breath on that front.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Exactly, I mean, I can understand if people want to follow a "modern" or "near future" military sci-fi theme with their army, but why do people who prefer that aesthetic so often seem to want all other options reduced or eliminated? If you don't want grimdark stuff, don't buy/use it, problem solved.

"Near future/modern" and "grimdark" are not mutually exclusive. Actually, Verdun would look like a peaceful picnic next to a real, high-tech meat grinder. I can totally support those who want to eliminate/change/retcon the weird options because it would give the IG some well-deserved personality instead of the current "historical references in SPEESSHH" theme.

Erm, they sort of are, "grimdark" doesn't just mean "unpleasent", it means skull-festooned deco-gothic totalitarian absurdity, and it's the whole point of the IP for a lot of people.

Further, if you want near-future-ish Guard, you can do that now by simply not choosing the options that don't fit with your theme, so why would you want to piss on everyone else's fun by saying they can only play the game the way YOU want?

Catachans: this line either needs a major revamp, or be dropped in favour of another plastic guard line. Cadians are alright, bobble heads aside, and unlikely to change, but Catachans look awful, and they aren't selling. My FLGS has half a dozen guard players, and a dozen + guard customers who don't play there, and everything sells but the catachans. I doubt that's a unique scenario. These guys either need to be de-ramboified, or replaced with the more conventional sci-fi look people want, with great coats, different helmets, something which can be mixed with Cadians to make a wide variety of good looking Guard, something you can't really do with Catachans.

Anecdotal doesn't work, because my nearby FLGS has a bunch of Catachan players, but almost no Cadians.

Besides there's plenty of lines for that, and no one is sure how well they are selling/aren't selling.

I'd be fine with keeping Vendettas as they are, just removing the ability to take them in squadrons.

I can't speak with any authority on the Codex, but I'll tell you what I'd like to see in plastic kits:

Roughriders. Horses, legs and weapon arms. Then you could convert whatever army you want into them.

Plastic Mordians, Steel Legion or other iconic Guard units. Tallarn even. I like the Forgeworld stuff, but seriously...that's a lot of cash I don't have to get enough to buy a whole army of them and at the rate IG die, you need a LOT of them.

Plastic Kaskrin. According to the current Codex you can give certain units like Veterans Carapace armor. How we supposed to do that, really? Sculpt it ourselves, or have half our armies looking like the same 5 metal Kasrkins? If you had a plastic kit, at least you could head swap with the Regiment of your choice.

Plastic Ogryns and Ratlings. Ratlings I'm stuck with in metal and Ogryns I'm having to convert from Warhammer Ogres and let me tell you the possibilities aren't awesome.

FEMALES! Unless you're an Eldar, the Grim Future is a big sausage fest. Girls are good enough to be Commissars and Inquisitors but not Guardsmen?

I would really love:

Plastic Arvus Lighter or Aquila Lander (May be taken as dedicated transport for command squads (HQ and platoon)), and Valkyries available as dedicated transport for all infantry squad types. (This should extend to Chimaeras too, more tanks for heavy weapon squads!)

Of course, the Arvus, Aquila and Valkyrie should all have more weapon options (see Forgeworld range; though many weapons should not be mountable on dedicated transport variants).

Also; Plastic Vulture, Lightning, Thunderbolts and Avengers,

New plastic Light tanks, New plastic medium tanks.

Leman Russ becomes 'Leman Russ Heavy Tank',gets more expensive, goes back to 1 per FOC-slot, but gets extra cool stuff like awesome new weapons, ability to fire all weapons on the move, more Hullpoints, .etc

Love to see Rough Riders moved to a troop choice. As is they just can’t compete against Valk/Vend, Hellhounds and even Sentinels in the fast attack space. Even in a fluff list just had to put them in an army.

Vox should have a longer range. It really is silly how short of a range it is. Should be a 36’ or 48’ range and give Creed 72’.

Infantry squads should be able to take a medic. Doesn’t make sense how a 50-man squad can’t take a medic but a small 5-man squad that most of the time will be Insta-killed by most weapons gets one.

A list of general "fixes" I'd like to see, not including new stuff/models.

I'd reduce both the Vendetta and Valkyrie to 11/11/10 AV(what it was under FW before they were up-armored to be useable as skimmers), make the Valkyrie a dedicated transport option, make Vendetta a Heavy Support unit and 150pts.

Add TL Heavy Stubber as a heavy weapon option for 5pts, reduce heavy Bolter to 5pts, Missile Launcher to 10pts, Lascannon to 15pts.

Make Grenade Launcher Assault 2 or at least Rapid Fire.

make Carapace armor cheaper, no way its worth 20pts on a command squad or 30pts on a Veteran squad, a BS4 vet with an S3 lasgun is not worth 1pt more than a BS3 Firewarrior with an S5 Pulse Rifle.

Sentinels to 25pts tops, 5pts cheaper on pretty much all weapons, Armored Sentinels should really be 3HP and 40pts

Stormtroopers. WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I3 A1 Ld8 (9 on sergeant) 4+sv, Furious Charge, Laspistol/CCW, Hotshot lasguns to S3 AP5 Assault 3 18" Pinning. Infiltrate and Deep Strike. 70pts for 5, 12ppm for each additional model up to 10, may take up to two special weapons. That'd make them a legitimate actual "stormtrooper" assault unit, as opposed to awkward and ineffective MEQ hunters, effective but not stepping on any toes.

Drop Hellhound & Variant costs by 40pts, Fast AV12 non-skimmer is not worth the price of a battle tank.

Leman Russ General: AV11 rear on all models, reduce sponson costs by 10pts each, fix Heavy/Lumbering to allow ordnance to still allow secondary weapons to fire effectively
LR Punisher: Drop 20pts from cost
LR Eradicator: make same as base LRBT cost
LR Vanquisher: make main gun AP1 and add coaxial heavy stubber to allow rerolls if stubber hits.
Add LR Annihilator at 130pts

Artillery: Drop cost on Basilisk by 15pts, reduce minimum range to 24". Reduce Medusa cost by 10pts.

Vox Networks: remove re-roll, allow to use anywhere on the board instead of within a few inches of an officer.

Heavy Weapon Squads: give Eternal Warrior (it's two dudes on one gun, not one tougher-than average dude, and without EW they're just too easy to remove, especially with Ld7) Reduce base cost to 50pts with a Mortar/TL Heavy Stubber/Heavy Bolter, 5ppm upgrade to Autocannons or ML's, 15ppm upgrade to Lascannons.

RR's need new models, make 8ppm base, give option for Carapace at 2ppm.

Give Hydra the option to use Skyfire or not. (I really *really* hate that they made skyfire snapshots only at ground targets and tied the fix in for that to an ability to fire at oncoming reserves, stupid game design, and half the Hydras fluff is being turned to use against infantry)

Relegate Deathstrike to Apocalypse, it has no place in a typical 40k battle as anything but an objective.

give Ogryns Ld9 and Stubborn

Make Techpriest repairs more reliable, buy as upgrade to vehicle/vehicle squadron.

Make Priest a Platoon upgrade

I honestly wouldn't mind some kind of AV13 medium tank that's specialized; say BS4, or twin linked weapon, single armament, dedicated AT or anti-infantry. Preferably one which looks like a real tank.

 CadianXV wrote:

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I'd like to see the Vulture added as a Codex entry. Because when I buy that lovely model, I want to be able to use it without issues.

This, a thousand times this. I'm surprised it wasn't included this time around tbh.

Also, granting Stormtroopers the "Storm the Objective" special rule would make me extremely happy.
(Found in the Apocalypse datasheet: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2620180_NEW_Imperial_Guard_-_Storm_Trooper_Strike_Force.pdf)

Past-scriptorum- plastic Stromtroopers have been rumored for years, to no avail. I'm not holding my breath on that front.

How did you find that link? I wonder what other things may be that interesting.

I don't think I would want the Leman Russ restricted to one per FOC. Heck, seeing all the tanks I can field in a game is the reason I wanted to start IG. I could see it becoming the medium tank due to its size, and creating a slightly bigger tank to act as the heavy. but yeah, I think the recent changes to lumbering behemoth, etc have neutered the LR.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Erm, they sort of are, "grimdark" doesn't just mean "unpleasent", it means skull-festooned deco-gothic totalitarian absurdity, and it's the whole point of the IP for a lot of people.

You don't have to turn it to 11 either, because then Grimderp or (even worse) Darkness Induced Apathy happen and your theme is screwed.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Further, if you want near-future-ish Guard, you can do that now by simply not choosing the options that don't fit with your theme, so why would you want to piss on everyone else's fun by saying they can only play the game the way YOU want?

I'm talking about the theme and the aesthetics of the Imperial Guard and not its options. They are all fine, even the Rough Riders are cool for some modernish change (and they will still use horses!). Except the Vendetta, that thing should burn in hell. The real change would be in the looks: you could still make a Valhallan army, with all their crazy stuff and such, but your guys would look like a rag-tag army of Spetsnaz instead of a direct WW2 soviets rip-off.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
but yeah, I think the recent changes to lumbering behemoth, etc have neutered the LR.

Well, only the LRBT and demolisher got worse. The other five variants got better, being able to fire all of their guns on the move.

 BryllCream wrote:
Too many powergamers in this thread who're saying the IG codex is perfect simply because they can spam vendettas.

I want to see foot infantry viable, ideally vets *and* PISs. And I'm sick of simply spamming meltaguns with my troops, I want more options that can compete.

If you're spamming meltaguns in 6th edition then it's no wonder you can't deal with Vendettas...

I'd love to see a new Guard codex. It's not balanced internally and certainly not balanced in the meta. Bringing back doctrines and the Steel Legion would be great.

 Peregrine wrote:
Post of awesome.

I lol'd throughout, great post, if a bit cynical.


I'm with the folks on internal balance issues honestly. I'd like to field RR's, Artillery Batteries, Yarrick, Ogryns, and more Stormtroopers in a game and not write them off as KPs.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Erm, they sort of are, "grimdark" doesn't just mean "unpleasent", it means skull-festooned deco-gothic totalitarian absurdity, and it's the whole point of the IP for a lot of people.

You don't have to turn it to 11 either, because then Grimderp or (even worse) Darkness Induced Apathy happen and your theme is screwed.

The problem is that 11 for you obviously isn't the same thing as 11 for me, the difference is that the current setup allows you to easily "turn it down" to what I would consider four or five, while your proposal would limit everyone else to what you think is the "appropriate amount" of grimdark.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Further, if you want near-future-ish Guard, you can do that now by simply not choosing the options that don't fit with your theme, so why would you want to piss on everyone else's fun by saying they can only play the game the way YOU want?

I'm talking about the theme and the aesthetics of the Imperial Guard and not its options. They are all fine, even the Rough Riders are cool for some modernish change (and they will still use horses!). Except the Vendetta, that thing should burn in hell. The real change would be in the looks: you could still make a Valhallan army, with all their crazy stuff and such, but your guys would look like a rag-tag army of Spetsnaz instead of a direct WW2 soviets rip-off.

Oh ok, so you just want to limit my aesthetic choices, that's totally fine

What if I like having "Soviet ripoffs"? Or Bedouin-influenced LRDP? Or Napoleonic gunlines with lasers? Or techno-gothic Scots Guard? The aesthetic and theme of the Guard is supposed to be varied and diverse, with levels of technology that vary from barbarians all the way up to full-on sci-fi, ie it already includes the themes and aesthetics you're looking for, it just includes the ones I and others are interested in as well, so again; why is taking away choices from everyone else necessary in order for you to enjoy yourself?

 Yodhrin wrote:

What if I like having "Soviet ripoffs"? Or Bedouin-influenced LRDP? Or Napoleonic gunlines with lasers? Or techno-gothic Scots Guard? The aesthetic and theme of the Guard is supposed to be varied and diverse, with levels of technology that vary from barbarians all the way up to full-on sci-fi, ie it already includes the themes and aesthetics you're looking for, it just includes the ones I and others are interested in as well, so again; why is taking away choices from everyone else necessary in order for you to enjoy yourself?

I agree with this. Guard regiments come from a very wide range of worlds with such diversity that any player can find or imagine an aesthetic that suits them. Leave it that way! The more, the merrier. 40K was never meant to look like Battlefield 2, 3, or 4.

If you like modern, then model it and play that kind of IG army. but don't turn up your nose and condemn those that enjoy Tallarn, Mordians, cavemen, Vostroyans, Cadians, Catachan, DKOK, Elysians, Steel Legion, Praetorians, Zulus, or any other form of IG.

 AtoMaki wrote:

I'm talking about the theme and the aesthetics of the Imperial Guard and not its options. They are all fine, even the Rough Riders are cool for some modernish change (and they will still use horses!). Except the Vendetta, that thing should burn in hell. The real change would be in the looks: you could still make a Valhallan army, with all their crazy stuff and such, but your guys would look like a rag-tag army of Spetsnaz instead of a direct WW2 soviets rip-off.

Why the hell should IG look modern? How is early 21st century look more appropriate for 41st millennium army than early 20th or late 19th century look?

Why the hell should IG look like rambo, WW2 troopers, canadians, techno-savages or anything? Surely they're in the 41st millenium with uncountable planets which are all exactly the same, right?
Come AtoMaki, Come crimson, we can go make space marine armies because the average joe in the 41st should be wearing all that kit. We'll call it imperial guard and tell everyone else that they're wrong.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Oh ok, so you just want to limit my aesthetic choices, that's totally fine

Nobody limits you... You do whatever you want with your models, but I think if GW cuts down the IG line (believe me: they will), then they should keep the "modernish" look and theme. Because it makes sense. So you don't have to stop mid-game because you've realized that you are playing Flames of War 40K with your quasi-soviets or Waterloo 40K with your Napoleonic gunline. What I want is originality. Because AFAIK, the "grimdark modern army" is a virgin territory, so the Imperial Guard can finally have its very own identity, instead of being random historical references in SPESSH.

But of course, if you like your historical references, then you can have them, no problem. We have female Space Marines armies too.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Because it makes sense.

How?

(And since when is 40K supposed to make sense anyway?)

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Oh ok, so you just want to limit my aesthetic choices, that's totally fine

Nobody limits you... You do whatever you want with your models, but I think if GW cuts down the IG line (believe me: they will), then they should keep the "modernish" look and theme. Because it makes sense. So you don't have to stop mid-game because you've realized that you are playing Flames of War 40K with your quasi-soviets or Waterloo 40K with your Napoleonic gunline. What I want is originality. Because AFAIK, the "grimdark modern army" is a virgin territory, so the Imperial Guard can finally have its very own identity, instead of being random historical references in SPESSH.

But of course, if you like your historical references, then you can have them, no problem. We have female Space Marines armies too.

How does it make sense? You keep repeating the same thing over and over, and yet you've still failed to even attempt to justify it beyond "I dun durr dunt like dem historicalamajiggers!"; why is "quasi-Battlefield 3" any more sensible, or original, then "quasi-Soviet" or "quasi-Napoleonic"? And how on earth can you justify claiming you're not trying to limit people after arguing that GW should change the entire IG miniatures line and background info to suit your tastes? Especially since what you want, "quasi-Battlefield 3", is entirely possible with the current background and miniatures range(put webbing and pouches on Cadians - done) without putting any limitations on what other people want to do.

No one familar with the general background of the IoM and IG would argue that the IG would be a uniform and consistent force across regiments.

I do not think the LR should be made into a "medium" tank. There is no good reason for that and plenty in game reasons not to. The table top is only so big and you need room to move around not just put your tanks on the board and never move them.

One more thing that I wish to be tweeted.

Yarrick. Needs maybe to drop 50 points or so. I want to use him more, but he’s not worth a tank.

Actually just thought of something to add to my wish-list;
something that is non-forgeworld, has the assault ramp special rule, and a transport capacity of 22.

That would probably go a long way to fixing ogryns all by itself...

 Captain Roderick wrote:
Actually just thought of something to add to my wish-list;
something that is non-forgeworld, has the assault ramp special rule, and a transport capacity of 22.

That would probably go a long way to fixing ogryns all by itself...

Plastic CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT?

That would be glorious.

 Yodhrin wrote:

How does it make sense? You keep repeating the same thing over and over, and yet you've still failed to even attempt to justify it beyond "I dun durr dunt like dem historicalamajiggers!"; why is "quasi-Battlefield 3" any more sensible, or original, then "quasi-Soviet" or "quasi-Napoleonic"? And how on earth can you justify claiming you're not trying to limit people after arguing that GW should change the entire IG miniatures line and background info to suit your tastes? Especially since what you want, "quasi-Battlefield 3", is entirely possible with the current background and miniatures range(put webbing and pouches on Cadians - done) without putting any limitations on what other people want to do.

I think you misunderstood me. I don't want BF3 either in my Warhammer 40K. I wan modernish look, because that way, they would look like actual battle-worthy soldiers who can win a firefight against vastly superior opponents instead of the "cool but impractical" setup. Remember, the average Guardsman has to fight things that are many-many leagues above him/her. And regimental pride won't help you in reload, but a well placed magazine harness will. Over time, every ineffective arrangement should simply die out, because the guardsmen using them die much quicker than those who use an effective setup (what should be pretty close to the gear setup used by modern armies). It is just simple evolution.

And hell, I can't see your point in this limitation thing... You sound like someone who thinks that GW runs at least 20 different IG ranges instead of the current 2... And miraculously, people still field Mordian/DKoK/Tallarn/whatever armies!

Actually, regimental pride, any boost to unit morale, would help a great deal in fighting the kind of mostrosities the IG has to deal with. Most modern armies would piss themselves and run if faced with tyranids.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
Actually, regimental pride, any boost to unit morale, would help a great deal in fighting the kind of mostrosities the IG has to deal with. Most modern armies would piss themselves and run if faced with tyranids.

And that's why they have Commissars .

 AtoMaki wrote:
And miraculously, people still field Mordian/DKoK/Tallarn/whatever armies!

Ever heard of Forgeworld? Or the collectors part of the GW website? People are buying those models to represent those armies - if people are buying them to field those armies surely that presents an opportunity for GW to make money by increasing the range of plastic Guard models?

If it ever came down to a single bland and utterly BORING range of modernish soldiers, I'd jack in 40k entirely. The Guard & it's diversity is that important to me as a player.

 AtoMaki wrote:

I think you misunderstood me. I don't want BF3 either in my Warhammer 40K. I wan modernish look, because that way, they would look like actual battle-worthy soldiers who can win a firefight against vastly superior opponents instead of the "cool but impractical" setup. Remember, the average Guardsman has to fight things that are many-many leagues above him/her. And regimental pride won't help you in reload, but a well placed magazine harness will. Over time, every ineffective arrangement should simply die out, because the guardsmen using them die much quicker than those who use an effective setup (what should be pretty close to the gear setup used by modern armies). It is just simple evolution.

Colonial British troops were not battle worthy soldiers? WWII Red Army wasn't? It is ludicrous to think that early 21st century look is somehow more practical or fitting for 41st millennium than late 19th century look. In few decades our current modern armed forces will look antiquated too. Battles that IG fight are nothing like the battles 21st century armies fight. Granted, they're nothing like the battles that 19th or 20th century armies fought either. But that's the point, it is absurd to claim that some specific real world army composition is better at fighting tyranids or chaos marines.

Furthermore, you talk about progress and evolution. That sounds like heresy and commissar will probably shoot you. Are you sure you don't want to play Tau?

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
And miraculously, people still field Mordian/DKoK/Tallarn/whatever armies!

Ever heard of Forgeworld? Or the collectors part of the GW website? .

Thank you, that's the whole point I try to make . One high-quality, full-plastic range would be much more awesome IMHO than a couple of low-quality, half-failcast range. And since you have to pick and choose in this case, my vote would go for the modernish look, because it makes more sense (and because my personal opinion is that historical references in SPEESSH are silly and unoriginal).

Crimson:
Ah, and I'm pretty sure that british colonial troops and WW2 soviets fought lots of Orks/Space Marines/Tyranids/whatever too .

 AtoMaki wrote:

And since you have to pick and choose in this case, my vote would go for the modernish look, because it makes more sense (and because my personal opinion is that historical references in SPEESSH are silly and unoriginal).

It doesn't make any more sense.

And I think historical references are cool and modern look is boring. So there, opinions.

Ah, and I'm pretty sure that british colonial troops and WW2 soviets fought lots of Orks/Space Marines/Tyranids/whatever too .

I said they didn't. Which is why it makes exactly as much or as little sense for them to be fighting tyranids or orks as it makes for modern looking army to be fighting them!

 AtoMaki wrote:
Over time, every ineffective arrangement should simply die out, because the guardsmen using them die much quicker than those who use an effective setup (what should be pretty close to the gear setup used by modern armies). It is just simple evolution.

Wrong
If that was true no one would use the AK47s any more. Less effective, but easy to produce, easy to use for untrained masses of expendable soldiers ... wait that's sounds like IG.

How about:
"Non-Forge World" Chamrias take Auto Cannons.
Replace the Death Stike Missile with the Destroyer Tank Hunter.

Lathor wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Over time, every ineffective arrangement should simply die out, because the guardsmen using them die much quicker than those who use an effective setup (what should be pretty close to the gear setup used by modern armies). It is just simple evolution.

Wrong
If that was true no one would use the AK47s any more. Less effective, but easy to produce, easy to use for untrained masses of expendable soldiers ... wait that's sounds like IG.

If you are somehow claiming the AK47 is an ineffective weapon, you really don't know real world weaponry. The reason its still being used 65+ years later is the fact that it IS effective.

 AtoMaki wrote:


...(and because my personal opinion is that historical references in SPEESSH are silly and unoriginal).

Then you sir are in the wrong hobby. The 40k universe is nothing but mythological and historical references in space

Everything Primarch
Everything Ultramarine
Most things Space Marine
Everything Space Wolf
Everything Dark Angel
Everything Inquisition
Everything Chaos
Everything IG
Everything Eldar (vanilla or chocolate)
Everything Imperium timeline
Some stuff Blood Angel
Even Tau stuff
Everything Black Library

I guess Orks and Nids might avoid historical references the most... do you play them?

You may have actually made the most un 40k comment possible for someone who likes 40k




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HisDivineShadow wrote:

If you are somehow claiming the AK47 is an ineffective weapon, you really don't know real world weaponry. The reason its still being used 65+ years later is the fact that it IS cheap, durable, and available.

Fixed that for you

Thanks for the fix

There were more compact, easy, accurate weapons when the AK47 was designed, just those need a skilled weapon smith instead of a factory worker to produce and an average laborer could not maintain it.

Lobukia wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HisDivineShadow wrote:

If you are somehow claiming the AK47 is an ineffective weapon, you really don't know real world weaponry. The reason its still being used 65+ years later is the fact that it IS cheap, durable, and available.

Fixed that for you

Which largely happen to be the biggest determinants of weapon effectiveness

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HisDivineShadow wrote:

If you are somehow claiming the AK47 is an ineffective weapon, you really don't know real world weaponry. The reason its still being used 65+ years later is the fact that it IS cheap, durable, and available.

Fixed that for you

Which largely happen to be the biggest determinants of weapon effectiveness

Yeah, for a club or an iron pipe
Stopping power, range, accuracy, handle, fire rate count more for a single weapon, army effectiveness is an other thing.

 Lobukia wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:


...(and because my personal opinion is that historical references in SPEESSH are silly and unoriginal).

Then you sir are in the wrong hobby. The 40k universe is nothing but mythological and historical references in space

*list*

I guess Orks and Nids might avoid historical references the most... do you play them?

You may have actually made the most un 40k comment possible for someone who likes 40k

Ah, fair point. But I must add, that none of the races on the list are so clean-cut, in-your-face references than the IG. And it disturbs me greatly. At least they should do some sort of Eldar-style twist where your Space Elves have guns that shoot miniature shurikens and totally cool with necromancy.

On the AK-47/military evolution thing:
Uh... Guys... I was speaking about much bigger differences in terms of gear than some random AK-47/SCAR-H comparison. I was thinking about M1 Garand/AK-74 style of stuff .

 AtoMaki wrote:

Ah, fair point. But I must add, that none of the races on the list are so clean-cut, in-your-face references than the IG. And it disturbs me greatly. At least they should do some sort of Eldar-style twist where your Space Elves have guns that shoot miniature shurikens and totally cool with necromancy.

I agree that it is better if things are merely inspired by something (possibly several different things) instead if directly copy-pasted. That's why Vostroyans are my favourite, they are inspired by Imperial Russia, but have enough Blanchian weirdness added that they become rather unique.

On the AK-47/military evolution thing:
Uh... Guys... I was speaking about much bigger differences in terms of gear than some random AK-47/SCAR-H comparison. I was thinking about M1 Garand/AK-74 style of stuff .

But all the IG has pretty much the same weapons anyway. We are talking about cut of the coats and fur hats here; hardly the most crucial elements of the combat effectiveness.

 Crimson wrote:

But all the IG has pretty much the same weapons anyway. We are talking about cut of the coats and fur hats here; hardly the most crucial elements of the combat effectiveness.

Actually, clothing can be a major factor. It affects your mobility and comfort, not to mention that with a tactical harness, you will have all your gear at hand. You can reload your gun faster (and you can carry more ammo), you can throw your grenades faster (and again, carry more grenades), your first aid kit will be at hand, increasing your survivability, your secondary weapon(s) will be at hand and so on. You can also move faster and "lighter". These are small things, but over time, they could be decisive because of the snowball effect.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Actually, clothing can be a major factor. It affects your mobility and comfort, not to mention that with a tactical harness, you will have all your gear at hand. You can reload your gun faster (and you can carry more ammo), you can throw your grenades faster (and again, carry more grenades), your first aid kit will be at hand, increasing your survivability, your secondary weapon(s) will be at hand and so on. You can also move faster and "lighter". These are small things, but over time, they could be decisive because of the snowball effect.

Yes, but modern gear is optimised for modern weapons and modern accessories. I'm sure British colonial troops had gear that was reasonably practical for their weapons, as had Napoleon's armies, and so did Spartans. IG doesn't use 21st century equipment. Maybe a giant fur hat is exactly optimal for keeping your optical targeting array in perfect operational temperature!

New non-horrifically ugly plastic Ogryn kits and a rules update to make Ogryns worth taking as a decent CC option.
I wants them.

Well really I agree with pretty much everything that people have said regarding the RR, they are awesome unit and I want to field them.

With regards to other unit been made more useful than they are I completely agree and even more so with the doctrines to shift the FOC around some more.

More tanks would always be nice

I'm happy to sit back and wait to see what GW bring us.

A lot of this discussion is the exact reason why we don't need just a single plastic line. I'm sure a more modern look would sell well, but I don't see that happening for a long time. Though I could see it thrown in for the pre-heresy stuff. And to be honest, Zulu Flavored IG sounds amazing.

Otherwise I echo mostly what's here. I'm so ok with loosing effectiveness of fliers and our hard hitters if it means making things like Ogryn, Ratlings, and RRs better. Even if they just increased the points cost of our fliers that'd be cool. For RR, there should be an option for mechanical steeds...either WHFB mechanical 'Thunder Horses' or just bikes. There's so much they can do with RRs it's such a disappointment they're so terrible.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm sure British colonial troops had gear that was reasonably practical for their weapons, as had Napoleon's armies, and so did Spartans.

You would be wrong. Many of them had gear that was designed to be showy and not necessarily all that practical.

Which, of course, also fits in with certain IG regiments, I should note.

Autocannon Chimeras would be cool.

Vendetta's will get some points added to them, you can be sure of that.

Guard don't currently have an MC based model, so they might get one of those. DA didn't get one though, right? So, perhaps not.

They already have one good plastic flier model (Valkyrie), but perhaps they'll get a smaller one with no transport capacity, similar to a FW model or the new DA flier.

I think we're due for a plastic conversion kit for the Vendetta, though. Like, WAY overdue.

Here is a thought on the Vendedta
3x Auto-Cannons [Twin-Linked?] or Multy Laser
Las-Cannons an upgrade for a price

 Melissia wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm sure British colonial troops had gear that was reasonably practical for their weapons, as had Napoleon's armies, and so did Spartans.

You would be wrong. Many of them had gear that was designed to be showy and not necessarily all that practical.

Which, of course, also fits in with certain IG regiments, I should note.

Actually aside from the spartans, the other armies showy nature was because they needed a clear way of showing whose troops were whose, since fights back then was the standard "Lineup! Fire!" sort. Being shot by your own troops or another part of your army was depressingly high.

I hope they have a special character upgrade for your Leman Russ tanks that lets you use Russes as troops.

Actually, I hope they roll the ABG into the Imperial Guard codex as a whole.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

But all the IG has pretty much the same weapons anyway. We are talking about cut of the coats and fur hats here; hardly the most crucial elements of the combat effectiveness.

Actually, clothing can be a major factor. It affects your mobility and comfort, not to mention that with a tactical harness, you will have all your gear at hand. You can reload your gun faster (and you can carry more ammo), you can throw your grenades faster (and again, carry more grenades), your first aid kit will be at hand, increasing your survivability, your secondary weapon(s) will be at hand and so on. You can also move faster and "lighter". These are small things, but over time, they could be decisive because of the snowball effect.

Its a tabletop fantasy game, the aesthetic is much more important than representing some theoretical increase of 4% in effeciency.

Only thing I want from a new guard codex, is a sub-rule, that states.

"If joined by an allied character, that character may not conferr ATSKNF or fearless to the squad"

Guardsmen's weakness is morale. ATSKNF works for small squad's, but for 50 man blob squad's, it's both absurd, and overpowered.

 Rysal190 wrote:
I'm so ok with loosing effectiveness of fliers and our hard hitters if it means making things like Ogryn, Ratlings, and RRs better.

And the number of people that said that really warms my cockles. To the bottom of my heart. And it really does feel like still the 2nd edition archetype of the 'guard player' - the dude or gal that just loves stupid abhumans and dudes on horses against tanks - is still going strong. The humble guardsman, the LRBT, these are the workhorses of the Guard... but ratlings, ogryn and roughriders are the heart.


Also, someone suggested earlier, plastic CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT? Yes please, but make it an assault vehicle for god's sake...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Evileyes, good point. Maybe just 'when a model with ATSKNF is part of a unit that is falling back and does not possess the rule, they automatically detatch from that unit during the fall-back move and rally separately from the unit (which must test as normal).'

Maybe even just an FAQ that says ATSKNF is on a model-by-model basis?

I quite like the idea of an allied marine character leading a blob of 50 guardsmen, hordes of them dying, everyone running away... and the marine going back to finish the job on his own.

JWhex wrote:
Its a tabletop fantasy game, the aesthetic is much more important than representing some theoretical increase of 4% in effeciency.

This is the best answer yet.

Plus, I happen to like all the different styles of IG. I have a collection of mostly Valhallans, but I also have some Mordians, Praetorians, and at least one squat. He's in my Penal Squad. The dirty abhuman.

I wouldn't mind getting some Cadians also, but all of them have to be in the old metal models. The newer plastic seem slightly differently sized. Then I want to get another IG army of Armageddon Steel Legion, so I can battle the Steel Legion and Valhallans in my future Stalingrad city board.

Bring back Colonel Schaeffer's Last Chancers and add a lot more points to the vendetta.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
Bring back Colonel Schaeffer's Last Chancers and add a lot more points to the vendetta.

I like this idea. I like my vendettas and valkyries, but to be fair, they are a little underpriced. Last Chancers would be really cool too, but I don't think Gw would bring them back (it makes armies too unique ) Also heavy weapons teams should go down in price. I mean two grunts and a mortar for 60pts? please! Also maybe if stormtroopers went down they would be a more viable option. As well as all this stuff I would like to see some of the doctrines come back (just wishful thinking)

Here is why I want the rough riders to be at least useful. I made these models years ago for my traitor guard but only ever used them a few times because the rules suck so bad.

Good work on those I must admit my reason for wanting updated & useful Rough Riders is to emulate the following;

Huge cavalry charges across the table. Don't care if they get mown down, just the image of so many rushing across the board - ahh, if only GW, if only.

JWhex wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

But all the IG has pretty much the same weapons anyway. We are talking about cut of the coats and fur hats here; hardly the most crucial elements of the combat effectiveness.

Actually, clothing can be a major factor. It affects your mobility and comfort, not to mention that with a tactical harness, you will have all your gear at hand. You can reload your gun faster (and you can carry more ammo), you can throw your grenades faster (and again, carry more grenades), your first aid kit will be at hand, increasing your survivability, your secondary weapon(s) will be at hand and so on. You can also move faster and "lighter". These are small things, but over time, they could be decisive because of the snowball effect.

Its a tabletop fantasy game, the aesthetic is much more important than representing some theoretical increase of 4% in effeciency.

Yeah, maybe I've got a little bit carried away with this .

Though it would be damn funny after this if GW would simply cancel the Catachan line, so only the Cadian models would remain (sounds pretty damn logical, especially with GW's current business policy). According to this discussion, half the IG players would ragequit the game then or something...

 AtoMaki wrote:

Though it would be damn funny after this if GW would simply cancel the Catachan line, so only the Cadian models would remain (sounds pretty damn logical, especially with GW's current business policy). According to this discussion, half the IG players would ragequit the game then or something...

Nah, not for Catachans. you might lose 15% of IG players over those godawful models...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Catachan sentinels are ok though.

What do people think about taking the scale back to the same size as the older Guard like Valhallans, Mordians and older Cadian. This would mean they would be the correct scale to SM.

 vim_the_good wrote:
What do people think about taking the scale back to the same size as the older Guard like Valhallans, Mordians and older Cadian. This would mean they would be the correct scale to SM.

Sure, it would probably be a good idea. Aren't FW guard scaled more like that anyway?

I want platoon-level doctrines to make platoons viable. Either cheap carapace armour, close-combat buffs or shooty buffs, I'm not fussed.

And I'd like a completely new plastics line. Many of the armies mentioned in this thread would be pretty cool, but it would be nice to have something actually new for a change.

I personally have done well with Rough Riders. For the Honor of Cadia! Works real with them, the only problem I have is one they have failed a Moral Check not even my Creed/Kell Combo seems to get them back in the fight.

Like a said earlier I would like them to just be little more resilient. A Carapace Armor upgrade or even Shields would make them better. Giving them a Toughness 3 [4] would also make a lot of difference.
A couple of Special Character would be fantastic:
 Assault: Mogul
 Outriders: Gives them the Scout Rules
 Dragoons [Name?]: Changes Rapid Fire to Assault-2
Let then Trade out the Las-Pistols for one of the Following
 Combat Shield
 Las Gun or Shotgun
 2 for the Special Weapons: Flamer, Melta-Gun, Plasma Gun, Grenade Launcher.
Trade out the Lance for one of the Following
 A Second Las Pistol
 Power Lance
Let them take one of the following:
 Vox-Caster
 Platoon Standard: Re-Roll or add 1d6 to random moves and Re-Roll “1s” with Charging Hit and Damage. [Replaces Las Pistol or Hunting Lance?]
 Demo Charge?

 Anpu42 wrote:
I personally have done well with Rough Riders. For the Honor of Cadia! Works real with them, the only problem I have is one they have failed a Moral Check not even my Creed/Kell Combo seems to get them back in the fight.

Like a said earlier I would like them to just be little more resilient. A Carapace Armor upgrade or even Shields would make them better. Giving them a Toughness 3 [4] would also make a lot of difference.
A couple of Special Character would be fantastic:
 Assault: Mogul
 Outriders: Gives them the Scout Rules
 Dragoons [Name?]: Changes Rapid Fire to Assault-2
Let then Trade out the Las-Pistols for one of the Following
 Combat Shield
 Las Gun or Shotgun
 2 for the Special Weapons: Flamer, Melta-Gun, Plasma Gun, Grenade Launcher.
Trade out the Lance for one of the Following
 A Second Las Pistol
 Power Lance
Let them take one of the following:
 Vox-Caster
 Platoon Standard: Re-Roll or add 1d6 to random moves and Re-Roll “1s” with Charging Hit and Damage. [Replaces Las Pistol or Hunting Lance?]
 Demo Charge?

While I could agree with the minor buffs, like vox-caster, toughness 3(4) (which doesn't exist any more) or even the 'squad pennant' (platoon standard), I think power lances, demo charges, assault-2 lasguns are all a bit too powerful/weird. They already get 2 special weapons, I think being able to switch for lasguns would be ok, but otherwise just keep 'em the same, make 'em a little cheaper (8 points?) and make it possible to field more. A platoon or something.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I personally have done well with Rough Riders. For the Honor of Cadia! Works real with them, the only problem I have is one they have failed a Moral Check not even my Creed/Kell Combo seems to get them back in the fight.

Like a said earlier I would like them to just be little more resilient. A Carapace Armor upgrade or even Shields would make them better. Giving them a Toughness 3 [4] would also make a lot of difference.

I had an idea (perhaps even earlier in this thread, I can't remember): Include the Fantasy '+1 Armour for Cavalry' rule. So if Cavalry have Flak Armour, that's a 4+ save. Would that be enough to make them worthwhile?

It would definitely be enough to make them more effective - getting an armour save against bolters, shuriken catapults, and most importantly overwatching flamers - but it'd be damn hard to justify without giving it to Daemons, or even worse, Thunderwolves.

No I'd rather keep those Thunderwolves at a 3+ than give my RR's a 4+ thanks!

Ah yes, Marines on Cavalry, I couldn't think of any, but there they are...
Ah well, Perhaps we need to give them "Riding Armour 4+" instead then...

I'd be cool with:
Streamlined Russ firing. it was an issue in 5th and is still (at least for me) an issue in 6th as to how many guns the damn thing can fire after moving, how far it can go...

I don't want a discussion on it, just a fixed ruling for the Russ.

Other than that, a balanced book would be nice. Fix Stormtroopers, give us an option for ABG without FW and new plastics please!

 liquidjoshi wrote:
I'd be cool with:
Streamlined Russ firing. it was an issue in 5th and is still (at least for me) an issue in 6th as to how many guns the damn thing can fire after moving, how far it can go...

I don't want a discussion on it, just a fixed ruling for the Russ.

Well, we do have that. If all it's weapons are Heavy, it can fire them all while moving up to 6". If it fires Ordnance, it can only snap-fire with other weapons. A lot of people don't like it, and certainly it does make the 'vanilla Russ' (supposedly the workhorse of the Guard) the least efficient. But there is a ruling all the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Ah yes, Marines on Cavalry, I couldn't think of any, but there they are...
Ah well, Perhaps we need to give them "Riding Armour 4+" instead then...

Or just give up on the whole improved armour thing. While Carapace would look quite cool, it just doesn't quite feel right for my mental image (or the fluff) of Rough Riders. They're outriders and scouts with a low carbon footprint; they also do stupid charges, but I see that as part and parcel of the historical riffing the guard does well. And they are meant to be dying in droves, like the cast of War Horse (the play, not the film; thanks Stephen Spielberg for making horses bulletproof and robbing the entire story of its underpinning tragedy)

 Anpu42 wrote:

Trade out the Lance for one of the Following
 A Second Las Pistol
 Power Lance

I used to get quite irritated with the Rough Rider entry with GW saying "Either a las-pistol or CC weapon". I couldn't figure out why until I realised - GW are actually using logic and that the rider is using one hand for the reins of the mount. "What is this madness?" I cried aloud (not really) but slowly the logic has come home to me. In otherwords, no to a second las-pistol (I've never held with dual-wielding firearms, it's stupid and you'll be about as accurate as a blind man trying to throw a hoop onto peg). As for the Power Lance, everyone would take it over the Hunting Lance. The Hunting Lance is worth having currently for that I5 S5 AP3 nastiness, but they're one use. If you could give them Power Lances then they have the rules for the Power Lance every time they get into melee, which would make poor Marines easier targets for them in the long run. If anything I'd say allow the Sergeant to get one as an upgrade but everyone else has Hunting Lances. However, to refer to the part of swapping out las-pistols for lasguns/shotguns, I can get behind that entirely - Dragoons anyone?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Let them take one of the following:
 Vox-Caster
 Platoon Standard: Re-Roll or add 1d6 to random moves and Re-Roll “1s” with Charging Hit and Damage. [Replaces Las Pistol or Hunting Lance?]
 Demo Charge?

I'd swap the name of the Platoon Standard to Troop Guidon to avoid confusion and have it swap out the fellows Hunting Lance for it - afterall, trying to manage two heavy tipped 8 foot poles on a galloping horse? Otherwise yes to that and to both Vox & Demo Charges. Actually I'd suggest it gave the ability to re-roll '1's for both hitting and for wounding on the turn they assault.

With reference to a Carapace Armour upgrade; I'm for that. I'd not use it myself, but it would allow people to use 'Feudal World' knights with hunting lances & perhaps with wheellock pistols to represent las-pistols and so on, or just heavier units of horsemen. Might scare a Marine army, their bolters having a chance to not kill the Rough Riders outright.

I'd add the following to Rough Riders as well;
- Heavy Weapons Squads with a fancy name for Rough Rider ones - essentially Horse Artillery with the following options; autocannon, heavy bolter, lascannon and, and this is just an idea forming in my head, some light artillery, a form of light battlecannon - say 48" S6/7/8 (I reckon S7 myself) AP3 large blast? Visually this is sort of what I'm thinking (picture is of a team from the Royal Horse Artillery, circa 1918):


I've been trying to think how a whole Rough Rider army could be organised, how they could do the options for it - afterall you have some special characters which make all of X units in an army Troops, which could work. Maybe it could work on similar lines;
When taking 'Colonel Hawhaw'* upgrade for CCS;
- All Rough Rider units in the army become Troops.
- Heavy Weapon Squads & Special Weapon Squads may take mounts at +0 points and HWS can take the light artillery mentioned above.
- CCS can take mounts at +0 points and Hunting Lances (maybe for +5 points each?). They can have their normal upgrades & perhaps allow them to have the light artillery piece too for their HW team. One member of the CCS can take a Bugle which on the turn any friendly unit within 6" assaults they have the special rule Feel No Pain**. Perhaps the CCS Commander also receives a new order, one that can only be given to Rough Rider squads, but I'm not sure what to suggest - maybe it would allow them to run & assault or in the same turn or they get to reroll dice for their assault range?

Just some thoughts.

*Lord Cardigan, commander of the Light Brigade at Balaclava, 1854.
**Based on the fact that the sound of a bugle sounding the charge, and we have evidence for this, can send men into fits of blood-crazed madness - most obvious example I can think of is the British Heavy Cavalry Charge at Waterloo - just listen to the bugles in that and the furious pounding of all those charging horses - the combination would probably send your blood racing. (Note: sadly the film Waterloo didn't show the British Heavy Cavalry decimating D'Erlon's Corps and several troops of Cuirassiers - but considering the epic scope & scale of the film I can forgive it.

That cavalry charge reminded me:

New special rule for all Rough Riders - any unit that overwatches on a unit of Rough Riders and causes casualties, then is not the subject of an assault as a result of a failed charge, must pass a leadership check or become pinned - falling to their knees weeping and screaming 'OH GOD THE HUMANITY'

As long as I can still run my crazy outflanking IG army, I'm game. Better internal balance (and perhaps some love for our poor, edition battered armor units) would be a welcome thing.

If GW would read forums I would have a win-win idea.
Make RRs and Ogryns less points in platoons and plastic models.
They could sell more, we could field more.

Lathor wrote:
If GW would read forums I would have a win-win idea.
Make RRs and Ogryns less points in platoons and plastic models.
They could sell more, we could field more.

OHMIGOD platoons of Ogryn? You, sir, are a genius.

SkaerKrow - I hope you get to keep Al'Rahem's crazy outflank joy as well. It'd suck so hard if he disappeared. I like your plog as well btw - don't let anyone tell you those LRBT's look silly, they're no more cartoony than GW's range...

Looking at the thread title (and hell, I'm probably late with this thought), I've been wondering: Would any of us mind not getting a new 'Dex for a while? The current one works well, has a good amount of choice units that work well. Getting a new codex would likely mean being hit by the nerf stick.

After reading this thread I'm surprised more people aren't interested in internal balance. That needs to happen. I'm also shocked that few people are asking for storm trooper buffs. I'd like to see them at the point where they're actually worth taking over veterans.

Although what surprises me the most is the love for Rough Riders. I always assumed everyone hated them as much as I do. Clearly I was completely wrong. Each to their own I guess.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Looking at the thread title (and hell, I'm probably late with this thought), I've been wondering: Would any of us mind not getting a new 'Dex for a while? The current one works well, has a good amount of choice units that work well. Getting a new codex would likely mean being hit by the nerf stick.

To be fair, a portion of the codex works well, much of it doesn't. An update may not be too bad, and it's not like they can make Tanks any worse than they already are... :(

Griddlelol wrote:

Although what surprises me the most is the love for Rough Riders. I always assumed everyone hated them as much as I do. Clearly I was completely wrong. Each to their own I guess.

You're not alone, I hate them as well, but they are a classic longstanding IG unit

 Vaktathi wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Looking at the thread title (and hell, I'm probably late with this thought), I've been wondering: Would any of us mind not getting a new 'Dex for a while? The current one works well, has a good amount of choice units that work well. Getting a new codex would likely mean being hit by the nerf stick.

To be fair, a portion of the codex works well, much of it doesn't. An update may not be too bad, and it's not like they can make Tanks any worse than they already are... :(

IG tanks are awesome. Chimera is stupid cheap, and all russes need is to be able to shoot sponsons + Ordinance, maybe slightly cheaper sponsons too.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Looking at the thread title (and hell, I'm probably late with this thought), I've been wondering: Would any of us mind not getting a new 'Dex for a while? The current one works well, has a good amount of choice units that work well. Getting a new codex would likely mean being hit by the nerf stick.

To be fair, a portion of the codex works well, much of it doesn't. An update may not be too bad, and it's not like they can make Tanks any worse than they already are... :(

IG tanks are awesome. Chimera is stupid cheap, and all russes need is to be able to shoot sponsons + Ordinance, maybe slightly cheaper sponsons too.

Tanks in general in 6th edition are fairly pants, and Chimeras die even faster than they did in 4E which is...impressive, with greatly diminished transport utility compared with 5th edition. None of that is unique to IG, but is a concern nonetheless. I haven't seen a vehicle heavy army, IG or not, do particularly well in the last 10 or so months aside from flyer lists and a few Necron AV13-spam lists. You can bring half the AT firepower you used to and do just as well in most cases, and if you bring just as much, then vehicles generally don't stand much of a chance.

I'm just hoping with the new release they'll make more Guard Plastic Kits to replace the original metal models, making kits that you can actually customize to death and that aren't restricted to just one faction of the IG.
That said, I want them to include more fliers, I know we have two, but compared to the other fliers out they just fall out of the sky.
But I agree with the OP, it is an amazingly balanced codex that if tempered with by GW, might not be great, but more so, I WANT FLUFF!!! The Current codex doesn't have enough of it, so I want the new guy to throw in more fluff than you could point a chainsword at!
And just one final thing, I want Individual characters in the IG to become more customizable and have a full extensive plastic kit them, so you can go into battle with your customized HQ model. And then there's those damned ugly models of the Rough Riders, Ogryn and the Ratlings... More range in the Mutants and other special models would be nice...

I dont think there is a chance in hell that our vehicles will get buffed. Wasnt nerfing tanks a big point of 6th edition?

Can you even imagine the nerd rage from other players that will result if IG tanks get a buff?

Bring back lumbering behemoth! Or even better, re write the rule allowing us to fire ordnance weapons and not have to snap fire the rest.

I'd like to give the guard access to some of the cool armored company toys like artificer hulls or beast hunter shells, but that probably won't happen.

In a dream world forge world would write the guard codex, make it awesome and feel like an authentic military force like all the other lists they write, but that probably won't happen either.

JWhex wrote:
I dont think there is a chance in hell that our vehicles will get buffed. Wasnt nerfing tanks a big point of 6th edition?

Can you even imagine the nerd rage from other players that will result if IG tanks get a buff?

Well a lot of marine vehicles have gone down in price. So there's the hope that they'll do that, I'd love a 150pt demolisher. I doubt we'll get Lumbering Behemoth back, it would be a bit odd to lose a rule only to gain it again.

 baxter123 wrote:

That said, I want them to include more fliers, I know we have two, but compared to the other fliers out they just fall out of the sky.

Wait, what? Vendettas fall out of the sky?

 Griddlelol wrote:
I doubt we'll get Lumbering Behemoth back, it would be a bit odd to lose a rule only to gain it again.

Not too odd, TBH I think the only reason we're stuck with the current situation is that GW's incompetent rule authors forgot that the ordnance turret gun cripples the rest of your guns and negates the benefits of making LRBTs heavy vehicles. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see an equivalent rule come back if/when they realize how they screwed up.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I doubt we'll get Lumbering Behemoth back, it would be a bit odd to lose a rule only to gain it again.

Not too odd, TBH I think the only reason we're stuck with the current situation is that GW's incompetent rule authors forgot that the ordnance turret gun cripples the rest of your guns and negates the benefits of making LRBTs heavy vehicles. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see an equivalent rule come back if/when they realize how they screwed up.

I could see the onces with Ordinance getting a special Rule or Pask giving it to the one he is on.

So I was looking at Necromunda rules yesterday, and possibly proxying my guardsmen for a gang - and it made me think, a really nice, simple thing I'd like to be able to give my infantry - even if it's only for veteran squads - is the ability to have a sidearm. Or even just a second CCW. Because I know my Necro gangs, they eventually all end up with autopistols, grenades, CCW's etc - so why not give the same option for Vets?

It's certainly one of the most likely things for veterans to pick up - a backup piece. 1pt upgrade to give a laspistol to each model.

opinions?

@AlmightyWalrus - yeah I was waiting for someone to spot that. Baxter123 - we already have the best fliers. We really don't need any more.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Griddlelol wrote:Although what surprises me the most is the love for Rough Riders. I always assumed everyone hated them as much as I do. Clearly I was completely wrong. Each to their own I guess.

You're not alone, I hate them as well, but they are a classic longstanding IG unit

My personal love of them isn't because I like cavalry per se, it's just that these guys have one of the worst job of all guardsmen. If you're footslogging, at least you've got guns, numbers, cover and heavy weapons and armor backing you up.

Rough riders get handed a one use explosive stick and you get to run at the enemy on top of a horse, without any cover. You're like a walking, talking, shoot me target.

I dislike rough riders as they are presented.

But turn them in to bikers and suddenly they're awesome.

Peregrine wrote:
Not too odd, TBH I think the only reason we're stuck with the current situation is that GW's incompetent rule authors forgot that the ordnance turret gun cripples the rest of your guns and negates the benefits of making LRBTs heavy vehicles. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see an equivalent rule come back if/when they realize how they screwed up.

It just seems weird that they had to remove it with an errata, when it was compatible with the current rule set. There's not much point in speculating though, we'll just have to wait an see.

Melissia wrote:I dislike rough riders as they are presented.

But turn them in to bikers and suddenly they're awesome.

They do look a hell of a lot better on bikes. Although the "feel" changes from honourable, pompous cavalry men to mad max-esque mentalists on bikes. I know which one I prefer.

GW has a habit of trying to make less used units more attractive as updates occur. The change to "heavy" was just that, it made Exterminators, Punishers and so on more attractive, as they can now lay down a pretty impressive barrage of fire. Previously, the only Russes I ever saw were Demolishers, Executioners (which are still awesome) and standard LRBT. Now, it's a much more diverse armoured presentation from the local Guard, myself included.

I can see, perhaps, some buff to the standard battle tank, perhaps a price drop or an ability to purchase something like lumbering behemoth; it's the staple tank, both on tabletop in most armies, and in the fluff. However, by the same token, it's the tank everyone ones, why buff it when you can now encourage people to buy new Russ kits with the other weapon options, rather than using their pre-2008 or whenever the new kit came out variants.

Though I must say, I do miss track guards.

That's what he new Guard release needs; track guards back in Russ kits, not a $15 "accessory" sprue with other useless bits to go along with your $50 tank.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Peregrine wrote:
Not too odd, TBH I think the only reason we're stuck with the current situation is that GW's incompetent rule authors forgot that the ordnance turret gun cripples the rest of your guns and negates the benefits of making LRBTs heavy vehicles. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see an equivalent rule come back if/when they realize how they screwed up.

It just seems weird that they had to remove it with an errata, when it was compatible with the current rule set. There's not much point in speculating though, we'll just have to wait an see.

Melissia wrote:I dislike rough riders as they are presented.

But turn them in to bikers and suddenly they're awesome.

They do look a hell of a lot better on bikes. Although the "feel" changes from honourable, pompous cavalry men to mad max-esque mentalists on bikes. I know which one I prefer.

The thing is, Lumbering Behemoth actually didn`t do anything with the current ruleset the way it was previously worded. It read that a vehicle with that rule could fire its turret weapon in addition to any weapons it was normally allowed to fire, even if the turret was ordnance. However, vehicles already CAN fire all of their weapons in 6th edition even up to cruising speed or after firing ordnance, just as snap shots. Therefore, Lumbering Behemoth, as it was previously worded, is just reiterating something the rulebook already told you that you could do.

What they SHOULD have done is declared that Lumbering Behemoth allowed you to fire the turret and up to 1 other weapon at normal BS if you moved at combat speed, or fire everything at normal BS if you remained stationary; this would be the closest thing to getting them to work like they did in 5th edition.

 Crimson wrote:

 vim_the_good wrote:
What do people think about taking the scale back to the same size as the older Guard like Valhallans, Mordians and older Cadian. This would mean they would be the correct scale to SM.

Sure, it would probably be a good idea. Aren't FW guard scaled more like that anyway?

Nope, they just look dinky by comparison to the GW plastics because the GW plastics are such a horrible bunch of elephant men, if you compare an upright Cadian to an upright DKoK they both measure about 30-31mm to the eyes. The difference is that FW use 6-6.5 heads-high heroic scaling, they only marginally increase the size of the appendages over actual scale, and the weapons are more reasonable; meanwhile GW Guard are around 5 heads-high heroic scaled, with giant deformed hands and feet, wield ludicrous weapons, and are apparently issued with "marshmallow-man" pattern fatigues.

The old GW metals are just as bad as the plastics, but their smaller size hides it a bit.

 Captain Roderick wrote:
So I was looking at Necromunda rules yesterday, and possibly proxying my guardsmen for a gang - and it made me think, a really nice, simple thing I'd like to be able to give my infantry - even if it's only for veteran squads - is the ability to have a sidearm. Or even just a second CCW. Because I know my Necro gangs, they eventually all end up with autopistols, grenades, CCW's etc - so why not give the same option for Vets?

It's certainly one of the most likely things for veterans to pick up - a backup piece. 1pt upgrade to give a laspistol to each model.

opinions?

You're talking about what we at my club call uber grit, like space wolves who have a bolter, bolt pistol and ccw? Storm troopers already have this atm, not sure about giving it to vets though, don't thnk it would be world ending if they were a little better at close combat

 Melissia wrote:
I dislike rough riders as they are presented.

But turn them in to bikers and suddenly they're awesome.

Ah you see I'm the opposite. Whilst I can get behind the idea of bike-mounted reconnaissance troops I'd much, much rather have the absolute epicness that is a military horseman. The horse has been such an instrumental part of our warfare for thousands of years that I like it that in the 41st millenium, as technology levels regress, horses still have a use in warfare. I just hope they don't drop Rough Riders from the Codex entirely in the next update, in fact I will possibly hope that I will finally be able to take an entire regiment of them. I just don't think a man on a bike can compare to the thunder of hooves of massed horsemen yelling their battle cries whilst bugles urge them on, the shrill notes challenging the air before they smash into their foe.

 EmilCrane wrote:

You're talking about what we at my club call uber grit, like space wolves who have a bolter, bolt pistol and ccw? Storm troopers already have this atm, not sure about giving it to vets though, don't thnk it would be world ending if they were a little better at close combat

Well exactly, it shouldn't be world ending, shouldn't even have that much use. Just feels appropriate, as a potential fluffy upgrade.

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:

You're talking about what we at my club call uber grit, like space wolves who have a bolter, bolt pistol and ccw? Storm troopers already have this atm, not sure about giving it to vets though, don't thnk it would be world ending if they were a little better at close combat

Well exactly, it shouldn't be world ending, shouldn't even have that much use. Just feels appropriate, as a potential fluffy upgrade.

Or at least let them trade out thier Las-un for a Las-Pistol

 Griddlelol wrote:

They do look a hell of a lot better on bikes. Although the "feel" changes from honourable, pompous cavalry men to mad max-esque mentalists on bikes. I know which one I prefer.

Aren't Rough Riders the "savage marauders on horse" kind of cavalry? I mean, their name is Rough Riders and not "IG Knights".

 Griddlelol wrote:

They do look a hell of a lot better on bikes. Although the "feel" changes from honourable, pompous cavalry men to mad max-esque mentalists on bikes. I know which one I prefer.

Yeah,me too.

Knowing GW if they did do motorcycle Rough Riders they would look like this

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

They do look a hell of a lot better on bikes. Although the "feel" changes from honourable, pompous cavalry men to mad max-esque mentalists on bikes. I know which one I prefer.

Aren't Rough Riders the "savage marauders on horse" kind of cavalry? I mean, their name is Rough Riders and not "IG Knights".

Well the majority are raised from feral worlds but you still do get feudal worlds with regiments of plate harness clad rough riders, there's some artwork portraying Tallarn Rough Riders about somewhere (4th Edition Guard Codex I think, under the RR entry) and of course the Death Korps uses 'Death Riders' which are essentially the same thing. The Attilan Rough Riders, being the most famous, are yet another one of GW's attempts to fit in something from a certain era, namely the Mongolian horsemen who conquered much of Asia and romped across Eastern Europa. So far as I'm aware the rough in Rough Rider refers to their ability to cross terrain, as horses & other quadrupeds can often cross terrain vehicles can't, such as footpaths up mountain sides.

Not to mention a total non-reliance on Promethium...